# Sulawesi interbreed?



## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Nope, they are different, wild type species. None of the Sulawesi shrimps are known to interbreed.


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## Soup12 (Nov 10, 2012)

Lexinverts said:


> Nope, they are different, wild type species. None of the Sulawesi shrimps are known to interbreed.


Wow awesome putting them both in!


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## ProduceGuy (Mar 8, 2013)

Where are you getting harlequins?


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## Soup12 (Nov 10, 2012)

ProduceGuy said:


> Where are you getting harlequins?


I just started looking. My tank has been cycled for over a month and i'm comfortable with ph and parameters to begin my search.

Let me know if you find a good deal for harlequin and/or cardinals!


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

Harlequins = troubles

I don't think that there is a breeder in USA who was able to keep them alive for more than 4-5 months.
I use to have one berried after 4 months in my tank. She has gone after releasing eggs.
No babies have survived. I lost all 12 Harlequins in 4.5 months
They have 12-14 months lifespan, thought.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Not to mention they are thought to have a symbiotic relationship with live sponges. Harlequins are meant for the extremely advanced shrimp keepers and as far as I know not one has managed to keep them alive for long.


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## Soup12 (Nov 10, 2012)

Soothing Shrimp said:


> Not to mention they are thought to have a symbiotic relationship with live sponges. Harlequins are meant for the extremely advanced shrimp keepers and as far as I know not one has managed to keep them alive for long.


Guess I will not be keeping them. Cardinals only tank then with rabbit snails of course


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Soothing Shrimp said:


> Not to mention they are thought to have a symbiotic relationship with live sponges. Harlequins are meant for the extremely advanced shrimp keepers and as far as I know not one has managed to keep them alive for long.


Nope, that is a different species that is often confused with Harlequins.

_Caridina spongicola_ is the species that lives with the sponges, and _Caridina woltereckae_ is the free-living Harlequin shrimp.

This notwithstanding, _C. woltereckae_ is the most difficult Sulawesi species to keep and breed, as Plamen said.


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## NebelGeîst (Jul 2, 2013)

Hi,

I´d also stay away from the Caridina woltereckae. Some Sulawesi shrimp enthusiasts here in Germany were able to breed them after the Sulawesi salts by SaltySrimp were released, but as far as I know non of them was able to keep their strains alive over more than two or three generations. And even if there will be someone, he surely still have lots of trouble with them and there for doesn´t make it public.
It seems to me that there are still unknown factors beside water condistions and food (and it´s not a missing symbiotic sponge, as Lexinverts figured out).
As it´s an endemic species and propably all available individuals seem to be wild caught and pretty fragile, usually dying within 4 or 5 months, I strongly recommend not to buy the Harlequins.
Caridina glaubrechti (red orchid bee) would be a better addition to the C. dennerli (cardinals), at least if not wild caught. 

Good luck with these really nice shrimp species


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

NebelGeîst said:


> Caridina glaubrechti (red orchid bee) would be a better addition to the C. dennerli (cardinals), at least if not wild caught.


Fraku sells Harlequins that he has bred, but it is good to know that the strains don't last long.

Have you bred Red Orchids? Those are supposed to be challenging as well--much more so than White Orchids.


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## NebelGeîst (Jul 2, 2013)

No I haven´t, but I can name at least 2 guys, who had bred them, without mulling over. And if I would have a look at the invertebrate forums I would find some more (reliable!) breeders whose names don´t come to my mind now.
I did not know Fraku is an international seller, but on the German webshop there are no information about wild caught or bred? But if they have an international webshop and sharing this information, do they tell as well where the harlequins were bred? (I´m curious about this because I heard some rumours about shrimp breeding stations on Sulawesi, and some 'bred' fancy Sulawesi shrimp available here in Germany atm, that may be actually wild caught. But again, it´s only rumours I heard)
But I can ask a friend (one of the guys who had bred the harlequins as well as the red orchids, white orchids, cardinals and others) if he works again on them or if he knows who´s breeding harlequins with lasting success atm. And maybe ask him if he can share some more information about the red orchids as well. But may take some time till I get an answer


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## Soup12 (Nov 10, 2012)

What about the cardinal shrimp- lifespan and breeding difficulty?


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

NebelGeîst said:


> I did not know Fraku is an international seller, but on the German webshop there are no information about wild caught or bred? But if they have an international webshop and sharing this information, do they tell as well where the harlequins were bred?


It's not international. I just like to look at things they have available. I think he used to have a notice about selling tank-bred Sulawesi shrimps, but I don't see it there now. So, maybe they are wild caught.



NebelGeîst said:


> (I´m curious about this because I heard some rumours about shrimp breeding stations on Sulawesi, and some 'bred' fancy Sulawesi shrimp available here in Germany atm, that may be actually wild caught. But again, it´s only rumours I heard)


I've heard that too. Maybe that's where they come from.


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

Soup12 said:


> What about the cardinal shrimp- lifespan and breeding difficulty?


They are some of the easiest of the Sulawesi shrimps to breed. Get Salty Shrimp 7.5 or 8.5 mix, and do some homework, and you should be ok.

In my experience they live a year or so.


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## Soup12 (Nov 10, 2012)

Lexinverts said:


> They are some of the easiest of the Sulawesi shrimps to breed. Get Salty Shrimp 7.5 or 8.5 mix, and do some homework, and you should be ok.
> 
> In my experience they live a year or so.


can I breed orange delight or red gold flake in the same tank? Do they have same water requirements? ty


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

All of the Sulawesi species should do fine in water re-mineralized with Salty Shrimp 8.5. The more difficult species may not breed for you, however.

Almost nobody in the USA sells Orange Delight or Gold Flake, so it would be a moot point anyway. Start with Cardinals and see if you can handle them. Then start looking around for people that import Sulawesi shrimp (there aren't many of them).


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## Soup12 (Nov 10, 2012)

Lexinverts said:


> All of the Sulawesi species should do fine in water re-mineralized with Salty Shrimp 8.5. The more difficult species may not breed for you, however.
> 
> Almost nobody in the USA sells Orange Delight or Gold Flake, so it would be a moot point anyway. Start with Cardinals and see if you can handle them. Then start looking around for people that import Sulawesi shrimp (there aren't many of them).


sounds good, will stick to cardinals and once i get it down may venture out to others. Will look into salty shrimp 8.5 - anything else I should buy as essential?


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## NebelGeîst (Jul 2, 2013)

A matured tank will improve your chances.
I don´t know if it´s available in the USA but, within German breeders a Sochting mini oxydator is essential, because it encreases the number of surviving individuals by providing enough oxygene in the pretty warm water and keeping the pathogens low.


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## Soup12 (Nov 10, 2012)

I will mature the tank by starting with rabbit snails. Im using a sponge filter so I feel loke there is enough oxygen, but i will look into that. I know some people use the benichi balls- is that similar?


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I recommend you search the forum for "oxydator" - there have been a few recent discussions about it. 

Certainly not something for the beginner.


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## NebelGeîst (Jul 2, 2013)

somewhatshocked said:


> Certainly not something for the beginner.


Why? Because it is used with hydrogen peroxide?


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

For a number of reasons. That being one of them, yes.

Though, most beginners in the United States likely wouldn't be keeping shrimp that would require this piece of equipment. Most people begin with Neos and are fine by just providing decent temperatures and plenty of water surface agitation to allow for gas exchange. 

Would be convenient for someone with a lot of experience keeping shrimp who couldn't provide enough oxygenation, though.


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## NebelGeîst (Jul 2, 2013)

Providing oxygen is not the only thing this little thing does....
And most Sulawesi shrimps aren´t supposed to be kept by beginners. But this is a Sulawesi
shrimp thread 
I had a look at some discussions about the Söchting oxydator. And what I found were the same arguments I had, before I started to really deal with it and tried it.
I was more than doughtful when I first read about it. But got some explanation about this oxydator (by a luminary at fishkeeping, the person who invented the Salty Shrimp salts) and how it works, did some tests on my own and finally changed my mind about it.

Dealing with hydrogen peroxid with 3 to 6 % concentration shouldn´t be a problem for an adult person. Just read the istructions and don´t be careless (as with any other chemicals or cleaner).

To say the oxydator shouldn´t be used by beginners on the one hand and dealing with antibiotics is just fin on the other hand doesn´t make sense to me.

(and no, I am not working for this company  )


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

This is not an argument. No need to be on the defensive. 

Just suggested one do research here on the forum (elsewhere would be good, as well) about this product before using it. And they should - especially if a beginner.

I didn't suggest it was a bad device. But it's not for the novice shrimp keeper. (The OP is a novice keeper - only a few months into keeping shrimp)

That said - this device is not necessary for successful shrimp keeping. Not even necessary for the most sensitive of species. Could it be useful? Of course. Would I spend money on something like this? No. Primarily because it's just one more thing that can go wrong in a shrimp tank. Again, that doesn't mean it's a bad product, just not a product that is necessary.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Back to the OP's question about what should be considered essential: patience.

Sulawesi, more than any other kind of shrimp I've kept, require the post patience. 

Since you'll have the basics down pat: water parameters, temperature, clean water, not overfeeding? You'll likely do really well as long as you practice patience.


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

somewhatshocked said:


> This is not an argument. No need to be on the defensive.


I think he is using the word "argument" sensu "A reason (based on evidence) given with the aim of persuading others to a particular point of view."

Not being defensive, just supporting his premise with evidence.


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## NebelGeîst (Jul 2, 2013)

somewhatshocked said:


> Primarily because it's just one more thing that can go wrong in a shrimp tank.


How? 
(and I´m quite sure the answer will be something I also thought of, before I used it)



> I didn't suggest it was a bad device. But it's not for the novice shrimp keeper. (The OP is a novice keeper - only a few months into keeping shrimp)


And I disagree with this. I´d even advice it to an aboslute beginner. And it is recommended for beginners by others as well. It even prevents ammonia and nitrite peaks in the tank, lowers the amount of germs, prevents food from assling tu fast.. Can help to circumvent some of the most frequent troubles beginners may have.
Of course it´s not a superweapon and you nead to read the manual and use it right.
Did you have troubles with this product in the past? Or why did you get to your opinion?

Don´t get me wrong, of course you can have your own opion. But I want to understand why you got it.

Just to say it´s not necessary _is not an argument_, if you allow me to use your own words. A filter isn´t necessary as well (I went filterless with some Neocaridina ans Caridina parvidentata (bred as live food)).

And again: Saying at the one hand, cardinals are proper for novices, but using an oxydator is not on the other hand.. It doesn´t make sense to me.
If one is able to handle with the waterparameters (including high temperature) he will be able to handle this item.

Debating with you isn´t ment to be unkind or to disrespect you (if it may seem so)


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I wasn't referring to is use of the word 'argument' but was pointing out that it's, in fact, not an argument.



Lexinverts said:


> I think he is using the word "argument" sensu "A reason (based on evidence) given with the aim of persuading others to a particular point of view."
> 
> Not being defensive, just supporting his premise with evidence.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Good grief (said in jest, in a jovial manner). Allow me to list the ways:


Someone new to shrimp won't know they've got a leak until it's too late

Parameters can be drastically altered if the device stops working and you for some reason have a strain of super-sensitive shrimp who are used to the parameters provided by the device

Someone could spill its contents

Someone could be using it without needing it, throwing money down the drain.

Honestly, I could go on for days, listing tons more issues that have already been covered in previous threads.

Again, it's not an argument. It's my opinion - along with the opinion of others who have quite a bit of experience - that this device is not necesary for novice shrimp keepers. Or even shrimp keepers who have been in the hobby for decades. Useful? Sure. Necessary? No, it's not.

If you bother to read what I wrote, you'll notice that I neither said it didn't provide additional benefits nor did I suggest Cardinals were fine for the novice shrimp keeper. I'll chalk that up to the language barrier.

Yes, saying it's not necessary, is, indeed, an argument/point of view. It's absolutely, 100% not necessary to successfully keep shrimp. Not even Cardinals. Otherwise, so many of us wouldn't have had such success with all kinds of shrimp. That does not mean it's a bad product (please read that again). Just means it's not necessary. It's also misleading to suggest this device is as important as filtration (though, bacteria live on all surfaces in a tank and can very well process waste without a device like an HOB or canister, plants can use waste, etc).

I believe it's bad advice to suggest new shrimp keepers spend big bucks on devices like this that are not necessary. Especially when there's so much that can go wrong. It's like suggesting someone should spend $1,400 on an LED fixture when they'd be better off using something from eBay that costs $30. Unnecessary.

We all have our different methods. There's more than one way to skin a cat. 

If you want something like this and have the money to spend? Get it. But I believe there is no reason to overcomplicate things. If someone can't maintain a shrimp tank and all that goes along with it without using a device like this, I don't believe they should be keeping shrimp.



NebelGeîst said:


> How?
> (and I´m quite sure the answer will be something I also thought of, before I used it)
> 
> 
> ...


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## NebelGeîst (Jul 2, 2013)

somewhatshocked said:


> Good grief. Allow me to list the ways:
> 
> 
> Someone new to shrimp won't know they've got a leak until it's too late
> ...


Honestly, have you ever held this oxydator in your hand? 
Is 10 to 12€ or 15$ (as in one of the threads mentioned) that much money? 
And if you think of these (*irony on*) absolutely propable cases (*irony off*) , do you think having aquariums at all is a good idea? 


the tank may leak resulting in gallons of water on your carpet
some filter or heater may be defective (danger of electricity)
your neighbour´s cat may jump on the glass covering resulting in glass flinders in your tank
And if you´d now want to tell, this all would be most unlikely, I will answer I read about this circumstances more often than about a leaking mini oxydator. 
What are the parameters, that are changed? Oxygen saturation, redox potential, germ load (, if in the water: concentration of ammonia, ammonium, nitrite and nitrate). Okay, I leave this point open to every reader to think about how this may cause promlems...

Of course it is not necessary. But


> If someone can't maintain a shrimp tank and all that goes along with it without using a device like this, I don't believe they should be keeping shrimp.


is irritating me. Am I wrong when I´m thinking doing the best for the welfare and health of your pets should be your goal? If one is not able to keep sulawesi shrimp without using the Salty Shrimp products, will be another facet of your point. And if it´s wrong to encrease breeding success I appologise.
Sulawesi shrimp have been bred before the usage of oxydators, even in Germany. So it really is not necessary, even in Germany. But do you think all the breeders, even the top of the top sulawesi breeders, use them because they look so nice in the tanks? Rhetorical question, no answer needed..





> If you bother to read what I wrote, you'll notice that I neither said it didn't provide additional benefits nor did I suggest Cardinals were  fine for the novice shrimp keeper. I'll chalk that up to the language barrier.


Not everything is due to language barriers. Sometimes things can be construed in different ways.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

It's about $30-$40 to get them in the States at a minimum.

Yep, I've held them in-hand. 

You read about all those other things going wrong because there are so few Oxydators in use. Most people don't use them because they're a niche product. Useful but - again - unnecessary in most tanks. To contrast: there are many more aquariums and in use than Oxydators. 

When you get your shrimp used to, say, reduced nitrates and oxygen increased by, say, 2mg/l and then abruptly alter those parameters? That can impact more sensitive varieties. 

Irritating? Definitely re-read what I've written. It has nothing to do with the welfare of your critters. It's not inhumane to maintain a tank without an Oxydator.

Remineralization products aren't really a great comparison, as there are many ways to remineralize a shrimp tank. The Oxydator is much more niche. It's also not necessary to have an Oxydator in a shrimp. It's typically necessary to use a remineralization product.

I've only seen a handful of breeders use them. Because - again - they're not necessary. Otherwise they'd be the must-have, big get on everybody's list. They're not. They're not going to be. Because people can achieve great success without them.

To reiterate: if you want to use this device, use it. But it is absolutely not necessary and never will be.

Feel free to private message me if you want to continue this particular discussion. At this point, however, it's gotten silly.


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