# I want soft water!



## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

easiest and cheapest is just getting RO water from your LFS


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Black- how much difference are you talking? 

If it's not more than just a few degrees (0.1-0.2) then just that fine layer of peat under your substrate like you were asking about in another post might do the trick. 

RO water can help, also a little peat in the filter will bring it down some more. If you're needing to lower your pH more than that, however, you start running into some sustainability issues.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

The thing about the peat is that it doesn't really soften the water in the way that is beneficial for those blackwater loving fish. While it helps replicate the Rio ***** and other Amazon tributaries in the tea stained sort of way, it doesn't actually neutralize the GH or lower the KH (okay, I'd not stake my life on the KH part, but considering CO2 doesn't eat KH, I can't see how humic acid would either, though I know a lot of the old school information says it does). The humic acid would just drop the pH as an acid would. The pH isn't the important thing here, it's mostly the GH which peat won't touch. Diluting the tap with RO is the only real way to drop the GH and KH and have that low TDS that the native environment has.

In any case, the GBRs are probably in plain tap water at the LFS, they're pretty much all tank bred anymore (afaik) and it just doesn't matter nearly as much as one might think. If you're going to wild collect, I'd feel differently.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Fluval makes Peat "Pellets" that, If I heard correctly wont stain your water. Just add some to your filter.


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

Humic acids are chelators. Dunno whether chelated Mg and Ca really counts as softening the water though.


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

Aquasoil


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

swylie said:


> Humic acids are chelators. Dunno whether chelated Mg and Ca really counts as softening the water though.


I don't know either. I might just have to test this for myself, lol... The whole peat softens water business really is bugging me, because I don't understand just how that would work. Maybe I'll do that in the Walmart 10 gallon before I test it for tempered glass...  

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/Annex/oldfaq-hardness.txt That article is generally helpful, though it does suffer a bit from the old & outdated information problem that so much of the web information does.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

acid + base = CO2 + salts?

I'm thinking acids do neutralize some Base compounds like CaCO3 (which counts in your KH & GH).
But it's not enough to be noticeable.

RO or distilled or rain water is the way to go


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## Dr. Demento (Jul 26, 2007)

Everything I've read seems to indicate that acclimating the fish to your water is infinitely preferable to futzing with the water chemistry to get it "perfect." However, if you're trying to breed them, that's a different story - you will need to make conditions similar their breeding conditions.

The best way to go about this would be as Ozymandias/indiboi suggested and using reverse osmosis water. The prime directive of water chemistry is "You cannot remove chemicals by adding more chemicals." This means that adding humic substances, buffers, etc _*may*_ work temporarily, but ultimately will fail  because different conditions (evaporation, temperature, etc) will conspire against you and push your water chemistry back to "baseline." It will be a never-ending battle, which you will always be reacting.

RO water has minimal dissolved minerals, you just add the "essential" minerals (usually by mixing some RO water with your home water). This will give you soft water of similar composition (GH) as the native environment. The downside is that you've lost buffering capacity. That's why I suggest that you adapt the fish, instead of trying to maintain a very difficult environment. A stable water chemistry is more important than the "right" water chemistry

As for the chemistry - Mistergreen: acid + base = Water (not CO2) + salt (this assumes strong acid and base - welcome back to high school!!). indiboi: KH (or carbonate hardness) has to do with buffering capacity (desired), and yes, adding/removing CO2 does affect KH if it's a carbonate buffer system, not phosphate buffer (when you hyperventilate, you are blowing off CO2, raising your blood pH = pass out!). The reason this info is "old school" is because "that's the way it is" - no new chemistry! As for peat, I'm not sure either if it works on KH or GH - chemistry (not aquarium) experience would tell me that the humic acids would decrease the carbonate buffer ability (decr pH) and that tannins would chelate some ions (calcium likely, magnesium perhaps, others - unsure) and this would be a variable effect.

The real issue is not GH or KH, but TDS (total dissolved solids) - from RTR on AquariaCentral - "Softwater fish are not really low-pH fish - low pH is a symptom of low buffering capacity plus some significant tannins or related acidic organics in the water. They are really a specific form of low TDS fish, or low-conductivity fish, but folks are confused enough by pH, TDS is over the top for them. The fish themselves usually adapt well to harder, higher pH water. Egg memberanes do not adapt well. To breed the fish you need to match their source water to greater or lesser degree."


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Great post! I see what you're saying with the CO2 and carbonate (KH) buffering; however, when we add CO2 the KH doesn't change (in any significant manner), which is why I question how it would using humic acid. The pH lowers, of course, but that stable KH is how we determine the CO2 level against the pH difference. I don't have enough (any) chemistry background to be able to really explain properly what I'm trying to express.

I know there can be acidification in low/no maintenance aquariums, where over time the acids from normal biological processes can eat away the KH, but that's a relatively long term and slow effect.

In any case, that low TDS is what these blackwater fish want, so just dropping the pH is pointless. 

I do think that anyone with an aquarium ought to have a TDS meter, it's far more useful than a pH test. 

To be clear though, KH and GH are part of TDS (which should be obvious, but clarifying anyway), but so are other substances not measured in those tests (example being the LFS that has water with a TDS of 2000+ because of adding aquarium salt), what a mess that is when you come home to TDS 200 water.

I think I'm going to setup a small aquarium with RO/DI (zero TDS) water and a measured KH added through baking soda and GH too (why not?), and just see what happens when I add peat. I'll probably wait until it's spring and just set it up in my shed, don't really have room for experimental tanks inside. I think it's one of those curiosities that I'll have to figure out myself.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

^^^ you can just do your experiment in a liter of RO water.. It makes all the math calculations easier too (ppm etc...)..


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Yeah, that's true... there you go making things all easy and stuff... my goodness.  

I figured 10 gallons would be a better option, easier to get a precise KH and one could have water circulation, etc. All with the goal of more closely approximately what might happen in an actual aquarium... peat in an AC HOB, for example. No substrate or anything like that to add extra variables.

I've come across some information that says that the humic acids bind with the Ca & Mg (but then what happens? It doesn't vanish, but perhaps is just no longer readable on GH tests?) while supposedly simultaneously acting upon the carbonates (okay, makes sense because the pH drops, but what happens? does the CO3 break apart into C and O? Carbonates don't "vanish" with CO2, but pH drops... what's the difference?).


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'd be quite interested in what you find out.

I'm going with peat for the first time b/c I'm setting up an Amazonian tank. I want my pH to drop some but don't need much. I'll be experiementing myself with how much peat in my canister filter actually affects the pH; keeping a live pH meter in the tank so I can keep a close eye.

I can use RO if I need to but I'm hoping I don't. I'm on well water though, so ehhh who knows. Trying as much as possible to buy local... so I'm treating my KH and GH as a constant.


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## black_envy (Aug 17, 2006)

Looks like I'll just adapt the fish then thanks


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## Dr. Demento (Jul 26, 2007)

Ah yes - mea culpa. In biological systems, carbonate buffering is made possible due to enzymatic activity - bicarbonate anhydrase; without the enzyme, the movement of CO2 to bicarb (and change in pH that accompanies the chemical reactions) still occur, just at a vastly slower rate. Duh!!! My bad :iamwithst 



indiboi said:


> Great post! I see what you're saying with the CO2 and carbonate (KH) buffering; however, when we add CO2 the KH doesn't change (in any significant manner), which is why I question how it would using humic acid. The pH lowers, of course, but that stable KH is how we determine the CO2 level against the pH difference. I don't have enough (any) chemistry background to be able to really explain properly what I'm trying to express.


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## Ladykatze (Jan 13, 2008)

If you get the fish from the LFS in AV, it should already be adapted.


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