# Advice sought: Problems with plant growth and BBA



## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

The holes in your leaves are almost certainly from the plecos. They munch leaves at night.

The swords are looking a little white in the new growth only which is usually the sign of iron deficiency.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

You have a lot of light, which is making the plants grow fast, but you aren't supplying the nutrients they need to grow that fast. I suggest that you read http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21944 and start dosing per the tables there. Adding CO2 can only help, so if you can afford it, get a pressurized CO2 system and use it.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

If you are looking to understand fertilizer dosing there is a good explanation here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=517945


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## Jtnb (Jan 8, 2014)

*Clarification to the question:*

I think I didn't really ask this question in the right way. Here's what I would like to do. 

I would like a fairly low-maintenance tank. The seemingly very knowledgable guy at Pacific Aquarium in Chinatown in New York says that I'm in pretty good shape but that I just need to add some CO2. What I'm hearing here is lots of dry-fert dosing and measuring this and that and weekly 50% water changes. 

What I'd really like is a minimally fussy tank that can get a water change every 3-4 weeks, fert plugs as needed (every month or two according to my LFS), and feeding and pruning. 

I do NOT want to get into a super-scientific or maintenance intensive process. If I do, what will certainly happen is that the tank will crash and I will have to shut it down. My schedule is just too busy for hours a week on the tank. From what I've read on this forum and what I have learned from my LFS it would seem that this is possible. 

Do you folks have any recommendations for a corrective action given the parameters in my first post? Do I have too much light'? Not enough CO2? I don't need a tank that will grow like crazy, but I do want healthy plants. The whole goal here was a fairly low-tech setup that will grow slowly, have low-light plants and be a mellow installation. I can certainly work on the tank throughout the week, but would like to keep the main work to the weekends, and that to less than an hour. Not trying to get by without work here, but need a reasonable maintenance schedule. 

Thoughts or guidance?

Low tech. Simple. I kind of thought i had it dialed. Over the last six months the tank was growing well and the only problems were GSA and BBA blooms. That was zero ferts and only one light (two bulbs). Now I have two lights (four bulbs) and a nine hour (ish) photo period.



Jonathan


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## Jtnb (Jan 8, 2014)

Just rereading the previous posts and noticing that chain swords may be suffering from iron deficiency. Can I correct that without getting into EI or other fert intensive-ness? Again, would like to keep this somewhat simple.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Yes, just add iron and it should perk up if it is iron deficiency. It might be an artifact from the photo, I can't tell. If the plant's new growth is significantly more pale than old growth then its iron deficiency and you can solve it by buying flourish iron, or another premixed fert with iron.

Look into low tech soil tanks. Diana Walstad wrote a good book on how to set one up. It requires basically no fertilizer dosing, just water changes like any other tank.

Here is the forum with all the info you need to do soil tanks. Look at the sticky notes at the top.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

You can dose only Tetra Pride or Leaf Zone for the iron. But it's much better to dose three small doses than one big one.
Like Hoppy said you have too much light for the amount of ferts in there. You said "low" but the lights say "high".
Shorter lengths of lights per day will work to reduce this. But this is another solution: Buy two of these and place them
in the slots closest together in your two fixtures.
Bulbrite F21T5 841 21-Watt Linear Fluorescent T5 Bulb, 800 Series, 4100-Kelvin, Mini Bi-Pin Base, 3-Inch - Amazon.com
And use your present bulbs or two of these in the outside slots.
http://www.petsmart.com/product/ind...=LIghting+&amp;+Hoods&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No
Check the Watts to see if close to your bulbs. T5HO will be 39W and you can't use in your fixture.
Fish don't need light if there is a window in the room for any light to get into the room from. So you can put your timer on
starting at 2P.M. and going till 8P.M. for your viewing for a 6hr light period if you need to.
Check this link for the "EI liquid ferts" and read it just to see. You CAN use less than they suggest for less growth but still
have complete ferts for the plants and once established it isn't any excessive amount of "hands on" but rather about two
or three doses a week from a dropper or spoon. Don't know if that is minimal enough though.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=506393&highlight=


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## Jtnb (Jan 8, 2014)

Check the Watts to see if close to your bulbs. T5HO will be 39W and you can't use in your fixture.
Fish don't need light if there is a window in the room for any light to get into the room from. So you can put your timer on
starting at 2P.M. and going till 8P.M. for your viewing for a 6hr light period if you need to.
Check this link for the "EI liquid ferts" and read it just to see. You CAN use less than they suggest for less growth but still
have complete ferts for the plants and once established it isn't any excessive amount of "hands on" but rather about two
or three doses a week from a dropper or spoon. Don't know if that is minimal enough though.
[url said:


> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=506393&highlight=[/url]


Raymond, very helpful indeed. Thank you. You are right on the money for the maintenance level I am seeking. I'd like to clarify your suggestions. You think I should replace bulbs so I have two 6,700k and two 4,000k bulbs rather than the existing two 6,700k and 10,000k. Are the 6,700k bulbs you are recommending better or different than the ones I am currently using? My fixtures are 36" T5NO at 21 watts per bulb. I can easily shorten the photo period as you suggest to 6 hours and there is adequate ambient light for the rest of the day. 

Before I jump on this, though, I want to be sure I understand. You are suggesting a roughly 35% reduction in light hours AND a reduction in the temperature of the 10,000k bulbs to 4,000k. Yes?

Can I also phase the light sets so they come on at different times, offering a longer viewing window but at the same overall wattage or does it not work like that?

And finally, my LFS is convinced that my limiting factor is CO2. I have a soda bar CO2 bottle and have been contemplating getting a solenoid for it. I could have a full CO2 setup complete with solenoid for well under $100, probably closer to $60. I only want to do it if it's necessary, though. *So here is an important question:* based on what you folks are seeing here, do you concur with LFS-guy that I am CO2 limited, or are you thinking ferts are the issue?

Very helpful so far, and I may go ahead and do that liquid program you suggest. Looks pretty straightforward and three times a week dosing is JUST FINE. *Thanks all for the time and responses!*

Jonathan


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Too much light as Hoppy rightly surmised.
Back to two bulb's raised over the tank maybe six inches, and eight hour photoperiod if it is low tech,low maint you are seeking.
This will result in slow but steady growth,and less algae.
Must decide what type of planted tank you want to care for .
With present lighting, plant's will struggle due to lack of CO2 and consistent nutrient deficencies.
Add more nutrient's with current lighting, and plant's will struggle due to lack of CO2 which is directly linked to amount of light being used.
Less light,,less demand for CO2/nutrient's.
Is the light that drives demand for everything else.
Algae, which need's much less of everything, thrives in tank's that try to use more light while not also increasing CO2/fertz.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Not both at the same time/separate as in either or. Don't know which brand of bulbs you have to make that call of better.
The selection of non HO T5 bulbs is rediculasly low to me. But since most say that a 10,000 has the 6700K spectrum in it
as well as the 10,000K, I'd say that you could do either as suits your viewing. 10,000 x 2 + 4100 x 2 or 4100 x 2+6700 x 2.
The only bulb that I have experience/w as far as "good" first are T5HO and then the Odyssea fixture I bought came/w
two 6500K bulbs. I bought one of a True Lumen "Flora" bulb from Foster & Smith's @6700K and the color of everything looks
much more life like. But if it does any better for plants...? So brands of bulbs I have not time to get experience/w yet on
the T5's but I know that Zoo Med T8's do and are what they claim them to be from experience.
But in them I was having too much(I actually intentionally cultivate it)algae/w the Zoo Med Ultra sun combined/w the 
Zoo Med Flora Grow(in T8) in one of my ten g tanks. I believe it to be @ high end of low or just over into med light level.
This is the intentional part for algae growth in this tank. Tweeking it right now as after switching the Ultra sun for a Tropical
sun Z/M T8 bulb it now has no algae. Point being it brought down the light by changing bulbs so some are different.
The Tropical sun is rated @ 5000K er go the recommendation for the 4100K to off set the other high ones.
Whoo...too many words. LOL...
BTW Zapins is usually dead on for ferts/plant damage.
CO2 will accelerate plant growth. Excel is too expensive for a 40 each day(perhaps) but doesn't speed up my plants
enough for me to notice it. This is not an over night repair and should be done individually (ferts/lights) so you 
can see what does what and doing the lights will give a chance to do more reading on the ferts.
In my tanks I strive to give the plants minimal/complete ferts, but with a little higher lights to get a small amount of
algae in there, but not accelerate the plant growth. Healthy, not fast plants is my goal.
My tanks have weird walls so don't focus on my "work in progress" so much as the plant health.
The plastic is holding Fissedens to the wall to "cling". But this is today and the lighter parts are new growth.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/images/pGallery/pg_7258e.jpg
You could probably run for 8 hrs with a 2-3 hr lap for "mid day" light effect.
Look at the difference in the dates on these two pictures and at the growth with just a little good ferts and no CO2 or excel.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/images/pGallery/pg_7057e.jpg
This tank has not had a regular dosing schedule but after this much growth in two weeks I am cutting the ferts in half.
But these are fast growing type of plants...regular baby tears.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Plus one on what roadmaster said.


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## fish h20 (May 5, 2009)

If you are going low tech you have WAY too much light! It is all about balance. Go back to one fixture, you may have to also raise that up, feed your fish a decent amount but not too much (very light feedings starve your plants of CO2 and nutrients), and use a siesta light schedule (I think you are already). 
Look at some of the information Hoppy has put out on PAR light values. This is very important in low tech. You want about 30 PAR or a little higher at the substrate. This is very important to get right. You may want to PM Hoppy and ask him what you need to do to get close to this level.
Any leaves with BBA need cut out. Water changes are very helpful to get rid of BBA. 50% once a week after cutting out the BBA will help a lot. Every time I get BBA it is because I have quit doing water changes. Once your plants start doing well and you see no signs of BBA you can cut back to 50% once a month.
You may need a few more plants. The heavier you plant the easier it is. Make sure any plants are low light plants. BBA loves plants that are not doing well. Some faster growing plants (stem plants) may help also. If you like grassy plants dwarf sagittaria is a good one. Get rid of the Barbs. They eat plants. The plecos should be fine. Get a few floating plants (float some water sprite). They really help because they can use CO2 from the air when it is low in the aquarium. Get rid of the phosphate sponge unless the phosphate is really high in your tap water. Plants need phosphate. Don't change everything at once. Plants have to adjust and that takes time. Start by getting the light right. Diana Walstad's book is a great read even if you don't do it her way. You can start to understand how it all works. Once you get it balanced it is easy. Trim and 50% water change once a month and that is it.

You don't need CO2 for a great aquarium. It just causes more work and balance becomes even harder.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

While thinking about what I said to you I have thought that I likely should not have even said anything about Excel or CO2 but likely did cause you mentioned that someone told you it could help.
True, but ONLY IF you are trying to go high tech. It accelerates the plant growth to match the light but lowering the light is
the way to go to keep low maintenance. With only a small amount of good ferts and lowered light your plants should do well.
Just kind of an after thought to what I said before.


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## naturelady (Dec 14, 2009)

I will agree with what pretty much everyone else has said- you have too much light for the amount of fertilizers and CO2 in your tank. Keep in mind, your knowledgeable fish store guy also wants to make a sale. (sorry, I am a cynic). So, he tells you "buy CO2". He is, of course, correct. You need more CO2 for the high amount of light you have on your tank. However, another option, equally correct, is the one most people have said on the forum here: cut back on your light. 

Another option for light: You always can try splitting your lighting period. Turn the lights off for 4-5 hours in the middle of the day, to allow CO2 to rebuild. This option can happen by itself, or in conjunction with reducing the number of lightbulbs over the tank, and/or number of hours they are on. There are many ways to switch up your lighting, keep experimenting to try to get it all into balance again.

As far as fertilizers, there are as many different dosing regimes as there are aquarists. But you probably should be adding some, and it can be very easy. I do water changes every 3-4 weeks like you suggested you wanted, and I only dose ferts immediately after a water change. Easy. Not too frequent. Quite low maintenance.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jtnb said:


> I think I didn't really ask this question in the right way. Here's what I would like to do.
> 
> I would like a fairly low-maintenance tank. The seemingly very knowledgable guy at Pacific Aquarium in Chinatown in New York says that I'm in pretty good shape but that I just need to add some CO2. What I'm hearing here is lots of dry-fert dosing and measuring this and that and weekly 50% water changes.
> 
> ...



You can do the non CO2 method without soil also.

So you can do this method:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/433-Non-CO2-methods

Or a hybrid version using Excel dosing:

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4266-Hybrid-methods-fusing-dry-start-excel-with-non-CO2

Basically you can reduce the dosing down by a 4X vs standard EI.
So dosing the ferts 1-2x a week, but the Excel daily.
Water change once a month, you are good to go.

Add more plants also. Floaters are good, but keep them from over shading the other plants below.


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## Jtnb (Jan 8, 2014)

*UPDATE and a couple of new issues*

Tank is going very well. See the pic below. 

Looking back on this thread I am actually quite pleased with growth. I have been following Tom Barr's suggestion and since January have done no water changes at all, have reduced light to about 8 hours per day on 3 T5NO bulbs with one 10,000K and two 21W Colormax bulbs. 63 WPG on a 40gallon breeder. 

Amano shrimp have completely taken care of the bb algae. 

Recently, though, in a fit of enthusiasm I added a few fish: 2 cory cats and one rainbow shark, all three of which were about 1" long. The rainbow promptly died but the cory cats are doing fine. 

Here is current tank population:

(7) 1.5" white cloud
(5) 1.5" cherry barb
(2) 1" silver hatchet
(4) 1" marbled hatchet
(6) 2-3" high-fin tetra
(2) 1.5" cory cat
(2) 2-2.5" bushynose pleco
(3) amano shrimp

Ignoring the shrimp, this puts just under 50" of fish in a 40 gal breeder. 

Testing over the past week has shown high nitrate (20-30ppm) and high ammonia (1.0ppm)

Last night I did a tank cleaning with some substrate (ecocomplete that's about 9 months old) agitation. Removed and trimmed plants and then did a 5 gal water change. (worried about the ammonia) The first water change I have done since January. 

Testing after water chance still showed 1.0ppm ammonia and 20ish ppm nitrate. Nitrite was 0.0 all along and pH is its usual 7.6. 

By way of background our tap water shows 0.0 of all and pH at 7.2 so the tank is slightly more alkaline. 

This morning, day after the water change, tests now show 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and roughly 40ppm nitrate. Can the ammonia have been converted overnight into nitrate? And is 40ppm too high? 

And do I need to consider removing fish? If I did, I would most want to remove plecos and high fin tetras rather than the more colorful and fun fellows. 

Do all this fish count for fish load? 

Thanks to all for the help on this. It's been really fun and I am really digging my minimal maintenance tank!

Jonathan in Connecticut.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I personally consider 40ppm nitrate in the red zone... when it's coming from waste buildup rather than fert dosing.

You really shouldn't need 40ppm nitrate in a low tech setting; the plants won't be growing nearly fast enough. So personally I'd probably do a big water change as you probably don't need more than 10-20ppm for the plants, if that.

IMO your bioload is still pretty high. I'd probably pull one of the plecos, as 1) all plecos are poop machines and 2) unless your two end up a mated pair, there's a decent chance they'll start fighting for territory as they get bigger. I'd probably also pull one (or two) of your schools in favor of a few more Cory cats to beef up that school. The Cories would probably appreciate it as they're a very social species (often school in the thousands in the wild), and it will beef up your total cleanup crew a bit more.


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## Jtnb (Jan 8, 2014)

Many thanks, lauraleellbp. Great to get advice from you, especially since I think it was a tank of yours that originally inspired me to start a planted tank. It's the one on the right in your signature. 

Planning some changes and have some questions based on your advice:

1. I am ready to get rid of both plecos. Should I keep one for any reason? Do they help the tank at all? Will cory cats serve whatever purpose? Are the plecos keeping anything in check? Algae of any type?

2. Do cory cats count for bioload or are they a net gain given their cleaning duties?

3. What's the minimum number of high-fin tetras I can keep? Would like to keep one of them as he's a family favorite but would rather remove the tetras than any other school. 

4. You say the bioload is high at about 48" of fish in 40 gals. What would you recommend for my low-tech setup?


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## Jtnb (Jan 8, 2014)

This, by the way, is what I'm calling a high-fin tetra. No idea what it really is. 

They're skittish fellows and spend a lot of time hiding. Hence my willingness to part with them.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Well your "hi fin tetra" is definitely not the fish that USUALLY goes by that common name (usually see that common name associated with Gymnocorymbus species)... can you get a better picture? It looks more like a Barb in that photo, but it might be a different tetra species...?

In response to your other questions:

1) BN plecos are great algae eaters. However, like I mentioned previously, they are also always heavy on the bioload. If you aren't particularly attached to them, you could always switch to a small school of Otocinclus catfish, some more Amano shrimp, and/or Nerite snails for your algae crew. Or keep a BNP... totally up to you.

2. I count all livestock towards bioload, as all livestock will eat and produce waste. Livestock waste = ammonia/nitrite/nitrate buildup. The question is always how MUCH waste, and in most cases, that is in direct proportion to the total mass of the fish/animal in question. A 2" Cory cat is a much heftier, thicker fish than most 2" tetras, so in most cases will actually be 2x the bioload. Is this a big deal? Not as long as you balance total bioload out with sufficient plant mass, filtration, and water changes to avoid excess waste buildup over time. It's just a matter of keeping things in balance. So that's the long answer to your question. The SHORT answer is- yes, scavengers definitely count towards bioload. LOL

3. Hm. Probably can't answer this question terribly well without a better species ID on your fish. In general, most schooling fish prefer to be at least in a school of 5-7, though.

4. As I sort of explained in the answer to #2, "inch per gallon" really isn't the greatest guideline for stocking a tank; it's a little over-simplistic as it does not take into account TOTAL fish mass, metabolism, eating habits (common example of extremes - one very voracious and messy-eating 6" oscar probably represents at least 30x the bioload of 6x 1" tetras), behavioral traits, territorial needs, etc.

I wouldn't necessarily call your tank "overstocked" as it is... but it's quite heavily stocked. Just doesn't leave much room for error... slack on the maintenance just a little bit, have a little excess plant dieback for whatever reason, and with that bioload, it wouldn't take long for the water quality to deteriorate. Lightening up the bioload a little would just allow more of a safety margin to catch and correct a problem should things get out of balance.


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## Jtnb (Jan 8, 2014)

*These are the fish in question-High Fin Tetras?*

Photos here as requested. 

If they can be ID'ed, can you help with a number for minimum school size? Issue here is principally that I need to reduce bioload and these are the fish that need to go, but one of them is a family favorite. 

Can we keep just two of these? Just one?

Other occupants would be cherry barbs, white clouds, cory cats, hatchets, amanos, and maybe one bushy nose pleco.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Based on the species info here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=605122, I think you should keep the entire school.

Any chance you could set up a separate tank for them?


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