# Eco-Complete or Dirt?



## nyrecruiter

I use an eco-complete/sand mix and eco-comlete is very good stuff. That said, I see an awful lot of people with really nice tanks using dirt, and I think that has sold me on being a future dirt user. Depending on how large your tank is, eco-complete can get way out of hand from a price perspective. If your tank is small enough that you only need 1 bag, flip a coin between dirt and Eco-complete, otherwise I would go dirt and spend your money on other things.


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## mallardman12

Its a 37 gallon tank. And Which has more nutrients? Thanks for your reply!


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## smannell

Potting soil has too many nutrients in my opinion. Stick with low organic matter top soil (aka "dirt"). If you start out with Miracle Grow soil or vermiculite you're going to miracle grow algae unless you've got a ton of CO2 and plants, plus just the right amount of light. It is easy to add nutrients to a soil based substrate, but if you start with too many there is nothing you can do except frequent, large water changes until all the excess nutrients have leeched out of the substrate. 

Besides that, when organic matter breaks down it can form Hydrogen Sulfide (the rotten egg smell), which is toxic to plant and animal life. Potting soil is mostly organic matter, usually peat moss, with small amounts of limestone and pearlite mixed in. I've always had excellent luck with just dirt from the corner of a wheat field mixed with a small amount of vermiculite and topped with some play sand (be sure to rinse it a couple of times). Anyway, just my two cents.

Sean


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## iKine

I used the most inexpensive top soil I could find for my first planted tank. It cost me 3$ for a bag that could have done a tank 5 times larger. I mixed in some flourite and capped it all of with regular ol' playsand. So far, my plants have thrived well in a tank that gets no dosing other than a half cap of flourish at w/c's.

I do get the gas like smannel talks about, I just poke my substrate during changes to get some of it out.

So far, I have had nothing but success with my dirt tank. I can say with confidence any planted tank I setup from now on will be using this method.


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## mallardman12

Thank you so much everyone! The only thing I have against dirt right now is that when I need to uproot something it will mess alot up... And what you you recommend I cap with?


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## astrosag

I have to disagree with the idea that Miracle Grow Potting Soil will give you algae problems. Algae is caused by excess nutrients in the water column and excessive light couple with plants being growth limited. The potting soil shouldn't be leeching many nutrients into the water column....its capped under a substrate!

I have 1.5" of it capped with eco-complete (yes expensive in hindsight but it looks good) in a low-light, no CO2 tank. Eco-complete alone (or similarly inert substrate) will not give you the same results. About a 1/3 of my tank doesn't have potting soil under the eco-complete and I have to use root-tabs to keep up with growth with the rest of the tank. You will eventually have to use root tabs as potting soil or any other substrate will lose its nutrients a year or so out.

My recommendation is potting soil capped with an inexpensive (but what you think looks good) substrate. Eco-complete alone (or similarly inert substrate) will not give you the same results without using root-tabs (injecting ferts into the substrate). I think you'll see great growth with rooted plants.

Lastly, I don't get any sulfuric smell or anything in my tank. I have rescaped the tank with the potting soil and fish in the tank with success. The only downfall is that the filter needs cleaning afterwards as it gets saturated with the smaller particles in the potting soil. Though capping it and not disturbing it works best. Just don't put more than 1.5" of the potting soil otherwise you risk it going anaerobic which will cause problems.


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## Robert H

Using soil is a good choice if you have done some research and know what you are doing...follow a plan. The goal of using soil is generally to provide a natural nutrient rich substrate without the need of regular dosing of ferts to the water. Using soil has some risks. The organic material decomposes. The nutrients become depleted over a period of time and do not last forever.

Eco complete is inert. It does not decompose. It is basically a clay type of gravel. It has no organic material that breaks down or provides nitrogen. It only provides minerals. Nitrogen comes from the break down of organic material. But because it is inert there is no risk or dangers like you get from decomposing organics. It will not provide nitrogen, but it will provide trace minerals.

Eco complete has other benefits. It is packed with live bacteria that help cycle the tank and clarify the water. The bacteria also helps to make the oxidized minerals more easily used by the plants. It is porous, so it can absorb other nutrients from the water and hold them for the plants. Unlike other clay gravels such as Flourite, Eco complete will NOT cloud your water. It has no dust what so ever.

Here are some pictures of Eco complete red at set up with crystal clear water

http://www.aquabotanic.com/?p=577

If you use Eco complete, you will still need a source of nitrogen and other macro nutrients, but you will not have to deal with the issues of organics in the substrate, or having the soil get into the water every time you uproot a plant. It is the right granular size for plant roots and heavy enough to keep new plants from popping out of the substrate.

Personaly I like it. Eco complete is one of my favorite substrate products.


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## astrosag

The only caveat to potting soil is that it doesn't last forever. As far as having to worry about dangerous side effects - if you stick to 1" - 1.5" of it (cap it with 2" of any other substrate), it'll work best. Most people I consulted when I first looked into it nearly a year ago did not have any adverse effects. Yes if you uproot, it'll be a tad messy but nothing an established tank and a good filter can't handle. Practically speaking, its not an issue at all. I have potting soil + eco complete and my water is crystal clear too... 

Think of Eco-complete and Flourite and etc. as different from Potting soil. You cannot use potting soil as your main substrate and none of the inert substrates do anything potting soil does. (Expensive ADA soil is sort of like potting soil and substrate rolled into one but it is much more expensive). 

So although Robert's support of eco-complete is great (same reasons why I initially bought it), it does not mean that eco-complete is an *alternative* to potting soil. Adding potting soil will enhance growth while it lasts.

Inevitably, for rooted plants, you'll have to dose into the substrate with root tabs or the like - potting soil will help stave that off for at least 6 months to a year. Also potting soil uniformly adds nutrients to your tank (assuming you use it throughout).


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## mallardman12

So eco-complete is far safer?


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## Patriot

How about both....dirt capped with eco complete.


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## mallardman12

I have actually seen a video where there was dirt capped with Eco-complete and there was so much nutrients in the tank all the plants melted and there was so much algae... So i'll pick one or the other.


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## Patriot

I have a dirted tank capped with eco complete with no problems at all.


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## VeeSe

mallardman12 said:


> I have actually seen a video where there was dirt capped with Eco-complete and there was so much nutrients in the tank all the plants melted and there was so much algae... So i'll pick one or the other.


eco-complete isn't loaded with nutrients... it's inert, despite what the bag says. ADA aquasoil is a substrate that actually has nutrients in it if that's what you're looking for, but the price on it is insane.


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## Patriot

I believe that it would be a good ideal to cap with eco complete so it can absorb any nutrient that decides to leave the soil...but thats just me.


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## mallardman12

Maybe I will  But If I can find Black diamond sand Ill cap with that.


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## nilocg

Have you thought about going with MTS?


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## astrosag

mallardman12 said:


> I have actually seen a video where there was dirt capped with Eco-complete and there was so much nutrients in the tank all the plants melted and there was so much algae... So i'll pick one or the other.


I'd be very interested in seeing this video and learning the mechanism by which _*too many *_nutrients "melted" plants. If you cap the potting soil correctly, which isn't hard and easy to spot if its not done so, then you shouldn't have many nutrients leeching into the water column...which won't promote much, if any, algae growth. Algae grows bc of the nutrients in the water column amongst other factors (primarily those limiting plant growth). 

Potting soil capped under eco-complete (or some similar substrate) would be my advice - from experience.


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## mallardman12

I honestly don't know the difference between mineralized top soil, dirt, and potting mix. Is there anything I should know? And here is the video for proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slx0bwEjRF4


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## smannell

Mineralized top soil and dirt are essentially the same thing. Good top soil contains significant amounts of organic matter, which is what gets removed when it is "mineralized". Potting mix on the other hand is composed of peat moss, vermiculite and/or pearlite, Dolomite/limestone (for pH control), and probably a water absorbing material/gel of some type. It is essentially a manufactured, very organic rich top soil. It rarely contains any natural top soil. I used to work at a green house, and we mixed our own potting soil using dirt from the river bottom, compost, vermiculite, and pearlite. Despite being more expensive, we did this because non of the commercial potting soils contained any actual "soil".

It is also usually infused with water soluble nutrients/fertilizers, which is why I personally don't like it for a planted tank. With terrestrial plants these nutrients are released a little bit at a time when you water the plants. When submerged in water they are released very rapidly. Even if you cap it, it is still going to leech nutrients into the water column (although using Eco-complete or a clay based substrate as a cap would slow this process) . If you have plenty of CO2, lots of plants, and the proper amount of lighting; then this isn't a big deal. However, if any of the above parameters are out of balance you risk an algae explosion; especially in high light conditions. I prefer to start with a nutrient depleted substrate and then add pond tablets as needed, but that is a personal choice.

Anyway, hope this helps.

Sean


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## wkndracer

mallardman12 said:


> I honestly don't know the difference between mineralized top soil, dirt, and potting mix. Is there anything I should know? And here is the video for proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slx0bwEjRF4


Interesting site and the guy is a wildman to watch. I find it entertaining. 

The Eco/dirt question has been covered in 2 pages already.
(imo) Eco has been mineral treated and shipped wet but is basically inert. Soils are completely different.

NPT/MTS
Mineralized soil is a process that's involves many steps and the end result is a nutrient rich readily available base. NPT or simply dumping the dirt in and capping it are the same processes at work only at different times as the same thing happens. It's just a question of where, and how much work you do. Mineralizing the dirt is the activity of bacteria breaking down the organic compounds releasing the minerals. Making MTS this happens on a tarp in open air. The activity of bacteria breaking down the organic compounds over time creates several changes within the tank that MTS completes first eliminating these shifts from occurring in the aquarium. The conversion of organics and the break down is also slowed greatly in the tank because of less available oxygen. The submerged steady state of decay once established in the tank takes about a year to happen. During that time settling or collapse of the organics reduces the thickness of the substrate. This doesn't happen using MTS. The organics have been consumed / converted back to mineral content alone by the bacteria before the dirt ever goes in the tank. Biggest difference between the two, MTS and NPT is where the organics are broken down, in tank or before.

Be it MTS or NPT based on ease of upkeep and growth results dirt works used in either form and is the cheapest way to play.
I see a dirt tank this way; Lowest cost for setting up, no 'required' attention to dosing ferts on a schedule.

There is a fair amount of ongoing debate on which to use MTS or NPT.
I've done one MTS system and eight NPT based tanks so my choice is obvious.
Duration of useful tank life is also always debated.
This is my oldest dirt tank. I used only 1" of MGOPM setting this one up.
I have included some clays a couple times now to increase Fe and used the additions listed for mixing when setting up MTS tanks in newer natural soil/dirt tanks.
Having this tank set up with Potting Mix (dirt) alone (MGOPM) and capped with Flourite. Nothing else was really needed for over a year. I saw nothing to indicate the plants were lacking any nutrient at all and growth never stumbled. After a year crypt growth slowed, leaves grew slightly smaller. Now beyond 2yrs. setup and still no additives or changes made to the substrate. Growth has slowed but the tank is still stable and growing plants. Adding the other materials (clay and other additives) years from now I'll let you know if it matters. 

The organics (mulch) in MGOC is 'fluffy' when dry is the best I can describe it. 
Pressing it down so I can judge what I have helps to get a consistent 1.5" layer setting up the tank. Months down the road as the organics break down this 1.5" layer will collapse to less than half that thickness so I hold back capping materials so I can add it later maintaining the cap and adding depth along the way as needed.

A new tank I'll get everything wet and wait guessing 10 days to be the average. If the soils are going to release ammonia into the water creating a spike that will harm fish I've always tested rising levels within the first week.
flooded 4/30/2009 this tank is still growing plants so what exactly is lacking?









The comments posted above regarding potting mixes containing peat moss, vermiculite and/or pearlite, Dolomite/limestone (for pH control), and probably a water absorbing material/gel of some type simply is the WRONG STUFF. 

Just on the limestone alone:
Adding anything to a soil base or a filter that effects carbonate or mineral hardness is something I don't recommend doing. Once it's in place you have lost all control of to what level hardness will reach. Equilibrium with the material exposed to water circulation now controls and I didn't like that. Once it's in the substrate and the tank is set you can't remove it either. At least in the filter you could. I did a couple test tanks (10g) trying limestone and a couple other materials and just wasn't comfortable with the results. That's why for bagged materials I recommend only the branded product that I do.

Natural soils and organics I'm good with and you'll always have unknowns to some degree using dirt. (Not packaged for our use) But I would avoid things known to affect the water hardness unless you are certain you need it. Using anything with 'infused water soluble nutrients/fertilizers' is asking for trouble.

Hope this answers more of your questions OP.


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## smannell

I was just stating what was in the commercial potting soil sold in bags at hardware stores, garden centers, etc. The limestone does affect the water hardness. It is added to potting soil because the calcium carbonite helps neutralize the acidic nature of peat moss (the fluffy dry stuff you are talking about). Without it the potting soil would be far too acidic for most terrestrial plants. 

I'm not sure what MGOPM stands for, but if it is Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix, then I can assure you the main ingredient is peat moss and it contains dolomitic limestone. My dad spent 30 years working as a horticulture agent and his masters degree is in ornamental horticulture. I also spent lots of holidays and summer breaks at my uncles dairy farm in addition to working at an agricultural experiment station and a greenhouse. I know exactly what is in natural top soil and manufactured potting mix. I'm not saying potting mix won't work as a substrate. It's designed to grow plants, so of course it will work. If done properly it'll work quite well. I'm just saying you have to be careful about releasing too many nutrients at once; especially if you buy the stuff with "plant food" in it. You can have the same problem with really good natural soil as well. The reason you get an ammonia spike for the first 7-10 days is because the main component in fertilizer is water soluble nitrogen (probably anhydrous ammonia). That is why I prefer "dirt", and I've never bothered to mineralize it; just pick out all the obvious organic matter.

Any soil based substrate will affect the pH and kH of the tank. Whether it raises or lowers pH depends upon where you get your soil and what sort of minerals it contains. Generally speaking, soils in the eastern part of the US are more acidic, while the soil from the great plains has a high pH. This is why farmers back east put lime (which is crushed limestone) on their fields, to raise the pH closer to neutral. Whenever I set up a tank with Kansas dirt the pH of the tank tends to stay around 7.4-7.6 for at least a couple years. If you want to know whether your backyard soil is acidic or not, put it in a bucket, add some distilled or RO water, wait 24 hours and test the pH of the water. That'll give you a pretty good idea of what the pH in the tank will settle towards. The main point of all this is just make sure you know what you're using.

Edit: Here is a website listing the ingredients for Miracle Gro Potting Mix:
http://www.gardenguides.com/99097-miracle-gro-potting-mix-ingredients.html
They don't list dolomite or limestone, but it has to contain something to raise the pH of the peat moss and tree bark. It could be the calcium phosphate in the fertilizer. 
Other potting soils will contain the same basic ingredients.


Sean


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## wkndracer

Wow! The inside scoop! So the quality controls for bagging this stuff at the Scotts Company are that stringent and no difference based on a seasonal basis or on available organic materials from one plant to the next? Again wow as I had no idea. I had read the qualifier on the Georgia facility. Completely unaware of any wetting agents or chemical treatments being applied to the bagged product either. That was the reason I purchased it. Vermiculite and pearlite are always listed on any bagged products sold commercially that I've looked at.

If the stuff isn't 'all natural' and is indeed chemically treated I've simply been taken by the ad gab.

The only MSDS data I can find doesn't list any limestone (CaCO3 or equivalent) either. 
http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=2900
http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=2898

I do know that setting up new tanks using 100% RO, Flourite original and MGOPM I saw no tested KH value for three days on a flooded test tank.
What I use is the listed 10-5-5 'organic' not the linked 21-7-14 potting mix.


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## Chris O'Keeffe

I did dirt with an Eco compete cap and I regret it. Dirt can get really messy especially if your fidgety like me and do minor re-scapes almost once a month. I now have balls of dirt sitting on top of my substrate. Don't get me wrong my plants are very healthy and their root systems are incredible. I almost made the mistake of pulling out on of my more mature swords, as I pulled it up the substrate started comming right with it like if you pinched your carpet and pulled. If you don't want the mess go with strictly Eco complete but if you don't plan on rescaping often go for the dirt!


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## wkndracer

great post Chris! that's one of the biggest trade offs using a soil substrate (imo)


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## smannell

Dirt is definitely not user friendly if you like to fiddle with things. You also want to avoid any fish or critters that like to dig. I had a pair of Blue Cherax "Lobsters" that turned my tank into a giant mud puddle. On the other hand, if you want something you can fertilize once every 3-6 months and then forget about; it's great.

As for "Organic" potting soils, the "organic" label means nothing. As far as I know, produce is the only product that has regulations as to what can be labeled organic, and that varies by state. Essentially, if it contains anything that was once alive it technically contains organic material. You could throw a dead fish into a bag of lead and put "Organic" in big letters on the packaging and not be violating any law that I know of. That being said, peat moss, and tree bark compost are about as organic as you can get and it's possible some of the fertilizers come from organic sources, you just have no idea what else might be in there. 

Sean


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## DogFish

In reading just about every thread on this sub forum, the collective use of the word "organics" has been directed toward manure /manure compost. I agree with quasi-websterine explanation that if it was once alive it's can be called organic matter.

I do feel there is a bit of a paranoia about organics. That is rather obvious in the reaction to my using YDDP as a substrate. We tend to forget were these plants live in nature. It's about moderation and fundamental maint. procedure...not who can throw the most money at a glass box of water.

I have no reason to doubt Sean's comments on Scott's "jacking-up" potting soil to sell more of it. To me the lack of corporate ethics is vastly more scary that a little poop in the substrate.


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## madness

The Miracle-Gro Organic Complete is used and recommended so frequently not because of any specific ingredient or production method but because it has been successfully used in aquariums by so many people with predictable results.

Whatever it is that they do with that particular product it seems to be aquarium friendly.

I have two Walstad style bowls with MGOC potting mix and one 30 gallon XH tank with it as well.

Plants grow like crazy, fish/shrimp don't seem to mind it, never had any funny smell. 

Robert was on to something when he suggested the importance of knowing what you are doing when starting a dirt tank.

In my opinion (and experience) if you know what you are doing and follow some guidelines (all of which have been stated in this thread at one point or another) you can have predictable and safe results using the potting mix.

I have two tanks with Eco-complete and I wish that they were both dirt tanks instead. 



smannell said:


> Dirt is definitely not user friendly if you like to fiddle with things. You also want to avoid any fish or critters that like to dig. I had a pair of Blue Cherax "Lobsters" that turned my tank into a giant mud puddle. On the other hand, if you want something you can fertilize once every 3-6 months and then forget about; it's great.
> 
> As for "Organic" potting soils, the "organic" label means nothing. As far as I know, produce is the only product that has regulations as to what can be labeled organic, and that varies by state. Essentially, if it contains anything that was once alive it technically contains organic material. You could throw a dead fish into a bag of lead and put "Organic" in big letters on the packaging and not be violating any law that I know of. That being said, peat moss, and tree bark compost are about as organic as you can get and it's possible some of the fertilizers come from organic sources, you just have no idea what else might be in there.
> 
> Sean


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## Lugnut

I personally have really started to like to do this, and wether it makes sense or not...Dont know, but I like my results.

I made a screen out of 'Hardware Cloth' from Lowes

I dig up some dirt from my back yard or by a river or something.

screen the dirt into a 5 gallon bucket.

Take one of those black and white spotted canning pots and boil the dirt for about 20-30 minutes.

then let it cool and mix in a couple of cups of powdered Red Clay.

Layer an inch at the bottom of tank followed by 1/4-1/2 inch of any sand as I will never see it and it is just enough to keep the mud in place.

Cap it with Eco-Complete to hold what nutrients come up form the Dirt as well as hold the nutrients from the fish waste and water column dosing.

Super cheap and I dont have algae at all. I still does the Water just to help some of those plants that have not rooted yet. 

I also never have that rotten egg smell either. Whatever it is that I do is working for me without any issues. I will continue doing it this way also.
Good Luck!!


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## DogFish

Lugnut - I don't see the need to boil your yard dirt. I didn't in my tank and got the same results no smells, no algae explosions.

If you are going to boil once you hit a rolling boil you're done, at 212 degrees you've killed every thing. Boiling for 20 min is overkill. They say the min. for meat is 160 and we eat that. :icon_bigg


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## Patriot

DogFish said:


> Lugnut - I don't see the need to boil your yard dirt. I didn't in my tank and got the same results no smells, no algae explosions.
> 
> If you are going to boil once you hit a rolling boil you're done, at 212 degrees you've killed every thing. Boiling for 20 min is overkill. They say the min. for meat is 160 and we eat that. :icon_bigg


very much true. 20 minutes will be a little much. I don't think there is any harm in serializing it before use. There are fungi, protozoa, and many other things that live in the soils, and because every soil is different his soil may have something yours didn't. However there are organism (thermophiles) that can live between 45 and 122°C(113 and 252°F)


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## DogFish

I agree not everyone's yard has the same dirt. Most of the things that might be problematic in a sample from a river bank or pond muck aren't typically found in most backyards. Most of the "nastys" found in yard dirt aren't going to survive living submersed.

Yard dirt might be safer than that door knob on a public rest room door or the kitchen sink sponge. 

I do think people should work at their own comfort level based on solid facts.


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## Patriot

I have no problem using dirt right out of the yard but I don't have one so I have to use potting soil. I don't care or make a big deal when I see nats in my dirt because they will be dead soon enough.


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## Robert H

> Mineralized top soil and dirt are essentially the same thing. Good top soil contains significant amounts of organic matter, which is what gets removed when it is "mineralized". Potting mix on the other hand is composed of peat moss, vermiculite and/or pearlite, Dolomite/limestone (for pH control), and probably a water absorbing material/gel of some type. It is essentially a manufactured, very organic rich top soil. It rarely contains any natural top soil. I used to work at a green house, and we mixed our own potting soil using dirt from the river bottom, compost, vermiculite, and pearlite. Despite being more expensive, we did this because non of the commercial potting soils contained any actual "soil".


This is actually a bit confusing to people. ALL soil is natural and organic and is a combination of decayed rock, decayed compost, (leaf and plant matter) and manure. Dolomite and limestone are types of rock and raise the alkalinity of the soil mixture. They also provide very large amounts of calcium and magnesium. They are used in soil mixes for both reasons. They will raise your pH in the aquarium. In gardening they are often used in very acidic soils to raise alkalinity.

The difference between various types of soil or soil mix is the ratio of organic material, (plant compost and manure, peat) and minerals from rock. Some soils are very heavy in one or the other.

Perlite, vermiculite and other such materials are made from natural rock and used to aerate the soil, help in drainage, and increase the cation exchange capacity. They are light weight, porous, and hold oxygen. They are pretty much useless underwater.

Top soil is very high in organic material because that is where all the leaves and plant material fall to the ground. Sub soil is much deeper down and is much higher in minerals than it is in organics. Sub soil is often referred to as "loam".

Various commercial soils all contain natural organic material and minerals from decayed rock, and various additives. They are mixed differently with different ratios of all these things, but it is still actual soil.

This is also why the term "dirt" means nothing. Mineralized soil is a term made up by a hobbyist to describe his method of taking normal potting soil and adding various things to it and a process that is supposed to make nutrients more readily available. Outside our little world here, the term does not exist or mean the same thing.


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## smannell

For people who work with terrestrial plants, "dirt" is usually the term used to refer to the non-organic (ie. mineral) components in soil; although it means different things to different people which is why things get so confusing. It certainly does not refer to anything specific among the general population. 

I probably should have mentioned that natural soil and potting soil both contain a mixture of organic material and minerals or processed minerals (I assumed everyone who played in the dirt as kid knew that). The biggest difference is the source of these materials as well as the ratios used, just like you said. Potting soil almost always has large amounts of organic material, while natural soils can be highly lacking in organic matter; especially in drier climates where trees are scarce and rocks/sand are abundant. Where you live makes a huge difference in what your back yard soil contains.

Pearlite is definitely useless for aquarium substrate, but vermiculite will absorb and hold nutrients; although I believe clay is probably better. The biggest problem I've had using it in a tank is that because it is light weight it has a tendency to raise to the top of the substrate where it is useless.

Sean


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## Lugnut

Why boil 20 min? It is not to kill anything, but as I read in many of Tom's article " Boiling the soil for a few minutes will oxidize the NH4 to NO3" 
I see it as a way of speeding up the cycling of your soil in a tank. I boild it and throw it in the tank. I dont have to wait 4 weeks to Mineralize it.


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## Realistik84

You all use too many damn acronyms. I suppose if I was on the level I would too, but for a newb it sucks 

MTS
NPT
MGOPM
MGOC
MSDS

I feel like I am in my technology world still.


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## aquatic serenity

I used this: http://www.scotts.com/smg/products/...f/Miracle-Gro Enriched Sphagnum Peat Moss.pdf
1.5" depth on the bottom of the tank ...capped with 1.5 " of OIL DRI I bought at walmart..
getting about the same results as the mgocpm...
If you look at the label on the enriched peat- you probably wouldnt try it...
I took a chance and it works great....miracle grow it is !!


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## fritz

smannell said:


> Essentially, if it contains anything that was once alive it technically contains organic material. *You could throw a dead fish into a bag of lead and put "Organic" in big letters on the packaging and not be violating any law that I know of. *
> Sean


I shot soda out of my nose reading that. 

It just might work too. The lead would keep it from coming up through the cap and the dead fish could fertilize the pants. You should patent this and license it to ADA.


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## Tankoholic

How peculiar. I'm a fellow dirt (unmineralized Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix) capped with Eco Complete user and I've never had a problem with any of my tanks with it comes to algae, high pH, melted plants, or even a messy water column after rescaping. And I rescape a lot. I blame it on the ADD  I wouldn't let a few bad experiences deter you from at least trying it once! Different strokes, err substrates, for different folks, I always say!


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## hambone870

Tankoholic said:


> How peculiar. I'm a fellow dirt (unmineralized Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix) capped with Eco Complete user and I've never had a problem with any of my tanks with it comes to algae, high pH, melted plants, or even a messy water column after rescaping. And I rescape a lot. I blame it on the ADD  I wouldn't let a few bad experiences deter you from at least trying it once! Different strokes, err substrates, for different folks, I always say!


me too, i have mgocpm capped with eco, floramax, and play sand in different tanks

ive never had luck with planted tanks until using dirt and now everything i plant grows

dirty and never going back, well worth the trade off for a little cloudiness when rescaping


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## wkndracer

*The Fraternity of Dirt *
dirt works :biggrin:
it helps grow water weeds :hihi:

giggled when I saw this thread pop back up :wink:


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## MrAlmostWrong

I had a 45long dirt capped with eco-complete and the only reason I stopped using it was because I rescaped a lot (heavy root feeders cause a crazy mess) and I wanted sand for the cories.


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## Dknight

Here’s my opinion on the whole dirt vs eco-complete
I have two tanks currently

Tank #1 = 55GAL w/MGOC and red clay capped with gravel. 4x 54W T5 HO lamps 6500K running 8 hours/day

Tank #2 = 45GAL Tall w/New Eco-Complete FINE substrate and 129x .20 watt 6500K LED light running 12 hours/day.

Dirt tank I’ve had setup for 6+ months. Eco-Complete tank was just setup about 1 month ago. Dosing firts on both tanks (Seachem Iron, Flourish, Excel, Trace, Potassium) 
Honestly the dirt tank has been nothing but a pain in the butt. It’s been my baby and I’ve put a ton of work into it. The results are poor. Everything grows but nothing flourishes. The water is always cloudy/mineralized and it’s been a very sick tank. Very long battles with ICH, sludge, algae and other crap. Yes there are a lot of other factors at play that I’m not mentioning (don’t want to write a book here). 

I am simply amazed by the eco-complete tank. I love the new fine gravel for one. Algae has been a lot better. The water is SO MUCH clearer than the dirted tank. It cycled very fast and w/o a big algae bloom. The biggest shocker for me is how quick the plants establish themselves in the substrate, and how fast and big their roots grow. I would have figured the dirt tank would have been way better at this, but I find it not at all to be the case with my setups. 

I honestly can’t wait to upgrade tank #1 to a bigger tank and scrap the dirt all together. If I were to ever do dirt again, I would certainly use a lot less of it. I think this may have been one of my biggest issues. I’m running about 1.5 – 2” of dirt and 1.5-2” of cap. I wouldn’t go over ½ - ¾ of a inch next time. I guess one of the things that’s supposed to be great about dirt is the cost, but I think this is a false assumption. This is an expensive hobby at any rate, and like all things, it’s better to do it right the first time. IMO dirt is not the way to go.


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## wheatiesl337

I like using dirt, though you do have to be more careful with moving any plants around. Not impossible though.

I haven't had any issues in my tanks I would attribute to using dirt (e.g. algea blooms, cloudy water, etc.) I have even blasted some dirt up into the water column when doing water changes and breaking through the cap, and the cannister filters clear it up within the hour.

The 50g linked in my signature below is a dirted tank capped with black-blasting sand, no c02, very light ferts. Just posted some new pics for any continuing dirt skeptics.


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## LiQuiD SmoKe

nyrecruiter said:


> I use an eco-complete/sand mix and eco-comlete is very good stuff. That said, I see an awful lot of people with really nice tanks using dirt, and I think that has sold me on being a future dirt user. Depending on how large your tank is, eco-complete can get way out of hand from a price perspective. If your tank is small enough that you only need 1 bag, flip a coin between dirt and Eco-complete, otherwise I would go dirt and spend your money on other things.


Just curious, does your sand end up eventually sifting though and eventually be on the bottom of the Ecocomplete?


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## electromango

I'm torn between using MGOPM capped with floramax black sand vs pure floramax sand for my 40g breeder. I love the idea of having a self sustaining substrate and a flourishing underwater garden but soil seems to be messy, and I love rearranging things in my tank. 

Are there any differences in growth with a soil substrate vs an inert plant substrate like floramax with root tabs and liquid ferts? Which is easier? And would soil be a good option for someone like me who loves rearranging things in my tank?

Thanks for any advice, I'm really torn here!


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