# Does the CO2 cylinder make a loud gas releasing noise when you turn it on?



## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

Somehow I feel like my regulator-cylinder connection isn't tight enough because I can feel wind coming from it every time I turn the cylinder on. That's not normal, is it?


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## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

Ugh. I'm sure it's leaking and it must be huge because the noise is the loud gas-leaking out of cylinder noise and I can feel the air move on my hand, but I can't tighten the regulator cylinder connection anymore....


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

permaseal?
or nylon washer?

sometimes hand tight is not good enough, use wrench to tight.


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## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

permaseal is screwed into the cylinder as tight as it will go. I did use a wrench to tighten. It's still not tight enough. I can't even tighten it more with the wrench. It feels like it's coming out from the OTHER side of the nut (not the side close to the cylinder, the side to the regulator).

OK i tried replacing the permaseal with a nylon washer but the same thing happened. It's leaking from the left side of the nut (side close to the regulator). I don't know what to do.... here's a pic of what it looks like.... you can see some of the thread. Is that wrong?

http://imageshack.us/f/41/sam0250c.jpg/

Almost makes me think this stuff isn't worth it. This has been such a pain to try and set up correctly between fittings snapping and breaking and me never having done something like this and it's still not working due to this leak and I have no idea what to do from here. Is it even fixable or do I have to buy a new CGA320 nut and nipple and connect it to the regulator? Because if I also have to do that I might just say f this.


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## eser21 (Apr 19, 2011)

looks a bit odd to me.... might need replacing.
If it has been leaking a lot open a window or you'll get a monster headache.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

If it is leaking where you say it is, you need to tighten it down more.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

since you 've already tighten the permaseal to the port with allen key, the next is:

the hex nipple contact surface may be out of shape or not flat, check it first.

If it is not the issue, can you please post some picture of your setup?

if I remember it right, the regulator you have is a fisher scientific, from bitimmer, right?
I think he has already done with the testing and it worked on his system.


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## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

Yeah I've been in contact with him through PMs. It's working now after I tightened it so hard that I couldn't hold the regulator face level with my other hand so it's now tilted 45 degrees downward. He said that there was a dent in the contact surface so that's why it was so hard. I wish it wasn't like that =(

edit: oh and it's a Scott dual stage regulator made by Harris I think


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## yellowsno (May 15, 2011)

on a random side note... u should get that dent fixed... as over tightening wears down equipment faster then if u use hand pressure... i learned this at work with the stupid o2 regulators that people use wrenches to overtighten then by the end of the month the regulator needs replacing (the regulators were said to be able to last 5 years with normal wear and tear) the pressure in the co2 tank helps to keep the disc in place and overtighting can wear the disc faster


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## maknwar (Aug 10, 2008)

Try a nylon washer, it might give you better contact.


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## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

maknwar said:


> Try a nylon washer, it might give you better contact.


Yeah I'm using the nylon washer now instead of the permaseal, it is much better with the dent. I still have no idea if there's a slight leak though. I don't really know how to apply soapy water. I took some lysol cleaner and mixed it with water in a cup, dipped a paper towel in it and then wiped around the connections with that, but I didnt' see anything happen.


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## yellowsno (May 15, 2011)

just take like dish washing liquid and put into a spray bottle with water use like 2 drops of dish washing liquid and like alot of water... then just spray all over where u think its leaking from till u get drops from the spray (spray lots and lots) then look till u see anywhere bubbling... 

when i had a hole in my tire i saw the tire guy do the same method... he just sprayed the whole tire till it was all wet then look for bubbles...


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

yellowsno said:


> on a random side note... u should get that dent fixed... as over tightening wears down equipment faster then if u use hand pressure... i learned this at work with the stupid o2 regulators that people use wrenches to overtighten then by the end of the month the regulator needs replacing (the regulators were said to be able to last 5 years with normal wear and tear) the pressure in the co2 tank helps to keep the disc in place and overtighting can wear the disc faster


Are you suggesting that people don't use a wrench to tighten their CGA nut to the pressurized gas tank? That's kinda dangerous. 
You shouldn't have too much wear if you tighten it with the correct tool.

Simple and cheap fix...remove the current used CGA and replace with a brand spankin new one. Under $10. All you need is an 8 or 10" adjustable wrench.


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## stangmus (Apr 1, 2010)

Mr. Fisher said:


> Are you suggesting that people don't use a wrench to tighten their CGA nut to the pressurized gas tank? That's kinda dangerous.
> You shouldn't have too much wear if you tighten it with the correct tool.
> 
> Simple and cheap fix...remove the current used CGA and replace with a brand spankin new one. Under $10. All you need is an 8 or 10" adjustable wrench.


CGA 870 that is used on portable oxygen regulators are designed to only be tightened by hand.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

stangmus said:


> CGA 870 that is used on portable oxygen regulators are designed to only be tightened by hand.


But we're talking about co2 tanks.... So we uses wrenches. 

Do not crank them, but yes, uses a wrench. 

Also, for my oxygen tanks at work, I use: http://wantynu.com/the-wrenches/the-tk2/

Again, I do not crank it, but it is a lot easier than hand tightening.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

Guys I'm pretty sure you can't over tighten the cga nut. It will not break. If it cannot be tightened anymore, it WILL NOT tighten anymore. veese, if you were able to tighten it so that it does not leak, then you are good. Trust me. stangmus, I'm sorry but we do use wrenches on this type of equipment, and doing so will not wear down the life of anything except for the nylon washer, which is meant to be replaced every time the tank is disconnected from the gca inlet.

Also, completely forgot about this, but I was able to grind off the raised nick in the face of the inlet stem. It did not damage it further, and it did help, as I was able to actually connect it to my cylinder with no leaks. I used a 12 inch wrench and it wasn't that hard, but then again that is an opinion statement. I am used to cranking things pretty hard. And as bettatail mentioned I did do a complete leak test.


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## Nate McFin (Mar 19, 2009)

I went through my first two tanks pretty quickly due to leaks....I learned 4things....

1.permaseals suck- nylon washers rule
2. Wrenching hard on a cga nut wont break it and is the only way to get a good seal (at least with my reg)
3.Teflon is your friend
4. Use LOTS of soap in your water to test for leaks. I use a paintbrush to paint the soapy water on to all of the fittings from the CO2 tank right down to the Reactor

VeeSe, it can be a challenge getting things set up. It is all a learning experience at first but it does get easier. Have fun with it! roud:

-Nate


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

DO NOT USE TEFLON ON THE CYLINDER CONNECTION. sorry to be so blunt nate, I just wanted veese to see that. Plus we hear that a lot on this forum. And forgive me if you mean only on the NPT connections, but that should be made clear. It does not help whatsoever on the cga connection, it might not do you harm, but then again it might, so better to stay away from it. Veese, if you have it working, just leave it alone. Other than that nate, you have the right idea. Perma seals can be very helpul, but sometimes they don't work. It is just yours and some others' experience that it didn't work. They work great for me and plenty of other people.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

I've had happy experiences with two different regulator setups for the past 6 months or so. In the past week, I decided to add another tank to one of the setups (from two tanks to three). So far, in probably 10-12 hours total of tinkering, I've experienced:

Quality metering valves with 10-32 threads that can't handle the weight and torque of a check valve and bubble counter installed directly over them - they tend to start unscrewing with the weight when you knock into them while installing something else, and when you turn them upright again, they're not as tight anymore and require a few degrees further turn to tighten, which puts them beyond vertical ...and you can't crank down on threads that small to keep them stationary in the first place.

Used (but quality) metering valves that leak

Joints that I thought where well sealed and tightened actually leaked, but because they were back a few joints in the rig, I had to take half the rig apart to tighten them if I wanted to keep everything at 90 degree angles.

One of those cheap black plastic JBJ-style bubble counters ($10 on Evilbay) had a faulty check valve and wouldn't allow air through at all

Another JBJ-style bubble counter that cracked its plastic when I used pliers to tighten down the rubber washer-sealed cap

When switching to a different needle/metering valve, the size of the valve made it impossible to use the previous setup, which meant taking most things apart, cleaning off the pipe joint compound, re-applying it all, and screwing everything together again, all just to change out one small part


Anway, the point is that things happen. And you learn from them. I won't make certain mistakes ever again, and others I'll have to make one fewer times to finally learn a lesson 

So, use pipe joint compound or teflon tape liberally, tighten the crap out of everything, and know that things happen, and you'll learn. Oh, and pressure test carefully. Doing so has saved me having to refill my CO2 cylinders several times.

P.S. stock up on fittings. In a past project, I went to Lowe's 5 times in one day. At trip #3, I was embarrassed enough to consciously avoid the checkout lanes I'd gone through the first couple times. By trip #5, I just felt pathetic. But, in the end, I won


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

btimmer92 said:


> Guys I'm pretty sure you can't over tighten the cga nut. It will not break. If it cannot be tightened anymore, it WILL NOT tighten anymore. veese, if you were able to tighten it so that it does not leak, then you are good. Trust me. stangmus, I'm sorry but we do use wrenches on this type of equipment, and doing so will not wear down the life of anything except for the nylon washer, which is meant to be replaced every time the tank is disconnected from the gca inlet.
> 
> Also, completely forgot about this, but I was able to grind off the raised nick in the face of the inlet stem. It did not damage it further, and it did help, as I was able to actually connect it to my cylinder with no leaks. I used a 12 inch wrench and it wasn't that hard, but then again that is an opinion statement. I am used to cranking things pretty hard. And as bettatail mentioned I did do a complete leak test.



You can break the brass nut. I've seen it. Also, the real concern is STRIPPING the soft brass nut with a hard steel wrench. 

You should need to snug it with a wrench, but should not at all have to crank them.


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## DerangedCorgi (Oct 15, 2010)

Sorry for highjacking this thread but I didn't want to make a new thread for a simple question(s). 

When disassembling the setup I've been told to unplug solenoid->close cylinder valve->release remaining working pressure->remove regulator. My question is would the indicator liquid (glycol for my case) seep into the needle valve if I didn't close it? I'm following this guide and he leaves the needle valve open before closing the solenoid/etc. 

Another quick question, if I were to say replace a check valve, can I leave the needle valve open/system running and just quickly replace it or would that cause stress to the needle valve (depressurization, etc)


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

DerangedCorgi said:


> Sorry for highjacking this thread but I didn't want to make a new thread for a simple question(s).
> 
> When disassembling the setup I've been told to unplug solenoid->close cylinder valve->release remaining working pressure->remove regulator. My question is would the indicator liquid (glycol for my case) seep into the needle valve if I didn't close it? I'm following this guide and he leaves the needle valve open before closing the solenoid/etc.
> 
> Another quick question, if I were to say replace a check valve, can I leave the needle valve open/system running and just quickly replace it or would that cause stress to the needle valve (depressurization, etc)


Firstly, ignore that tutorial. Turn off tank, wait 10m, then you can unplug solenoid and zero out working pressure, and then disconnect the rig. Ideally, there's no compressed gas in the system when you do that. Just be sure, when you reconnect everything, to open wide the needle valve, and plug in the solenoid, then open the tank valve, then increase working pressure from zero.

Secondly, there should be a check valve either in the bubble counter or between the needle valve and bubble counter (preferably both). So, if that's the case, nothing will leak in.

Thirdly, never mess with the system unless there's no CO2 running through it. You could get away with replacing the check valve if you only unplugged the solenoid, but safest bet is to follow the shutdown procedure I described, and then replace it.

Fourthly (dunno if that's a word) check every join with soapy water after you turn it back on.


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## DerangedCorgi (Oct 15, 2010)

Ah, I have the milwaukee Ma957's bubble counter/needle valve so would you happen to know if that has a built in check valve? I'm just worried about the glycol backing into the solenoid/needle valve. 

Also, when initiating the CO2 setup I would, open the needle valve->solenoid->cylinder valve->adjustment valve->adjust needle valve for bps?


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

DerangedCorgi said:


> Ah, I have the milwaukee Ma957's bubble counter/needle valve so would you happen to know if that has a built in check valve? I'm just worried about the glycol backing into the solenoid/needle valve.


It probably doesn't. Which is why you should definitely have an inline check valve, even if it's just a plastic one, between the bubble counter and the diffuser.



DerangedCorgi said:


> Also, when initiating the CO2 setup I would, open the needle valve->solenoid->cylinder valve->adjustment valve->adjust needle valve for bps?


Sounds good. As long as you remember to have the working pressure at zero before doing anything.


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## DerangedCorgi (Oct 15, 2010)

Oh, my bubble counter is connected to the regulator though.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Yep, I've had the same setup. You don't have a check valve, which won't be a real problem unless there's a signifcant leak somewhere. But if there is, you have a problem. Buy a couple plastic check valves at your local LFS or a metal one from Evilbay or theshrimplab.com, and install them along that CO2 line somewhere. You need a check valve somewhere along the line. Anything to keep back pressure from forcing anything to go anywhere in reverse.

Ideally, you'd have one between the check valve and the bubble counter, and another between the bubble counter and the diffuser.


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## mscichlid (Jul 14, 2008)

Plumbers' Putty is your friend. I have found out the hard way. I also bought the plumbers' leak stuff. Has a applicator inside to slosh the solution over and around all possible leaking areas. Use it on the line and the check valves as well. Problem solved. 

Good luck with getting everything settled. When I had to fill my 20lb bottle 3 times in a month, I was truly embarrased to go back and get it done. Almost gave up.


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

stangmus said:


> CGA 870 that is used on portable oxygen regulators are designed to only be tightened by hand.


The CGA 870 is a totally different beast. They also make hand tight CGA320 nuts, but the standard ones require you use a wrench.


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

I use a 10" adjustable wrench on my nut. It's really hard to strip it, ime (provided you use the tool correctly).
I use quite a bit of force when tightening the connection. The tighter you get the nut, the better the seal on either the nylon washer or the permaseal.

Both work as intended, IME.

As I said before, you can buy the hand tightening version of our CGA 320 nut, but you will need to crank the standard nuts down (regardless of their material~ stainless, chrome/nickel plated brass, or brass) with a wrench.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> You can break the brass nut. I've seen it. Also, the real concern is STRIPPING the soft brass nut with a hard steel wrench.
> 
> You should need to snug it with a wrench, but should not at all have to crank them.


sorry, but have you ever heard of a crank washer? its the same a a nylon washer. If that person broke it, they did not use a wrench the right way. You will not strip it if you do it correctly. Crank away.



Mr. Fisher said:


> I use a 10" adjustable wrench on my nut. It's really hard to strip it, ime (provided you use the tool correctly).
> I use quite a bit of force when tightening the connection. The tighter you get the nut, the better the seal on either the nylon washer or the permaseal.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

btimmer92 said:


> sorry, but have you ever heard of a crank washer? its the same a a nylon washer. If that person broke it, they did not use a wrench the right way. You will not strip it if you do it correctly. Crank away.


Not the washer. I have seen the brass nut break. On several gas cylinders. They only need to be snugged down and if it has to be cranked, the nylon washer needs to be replaced or there is a major defect with the nut/stem/reg seat. 

Brass is soft and will easily strip if cranked too hard with an adjustable wrench. 

Further, permaseals are well known for breaking if you crank the nut down too hard. I've also seen this and is part of the reason I don't use them anymore since Linweld gives me a free nylon washer every fill.


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

OverStocked said:


> Not the washer. I have seen the brass nut break. On several gas cylinders. They only need to be snugged down and if it has to be cranked, the nylon washer needs to be replaced or there is a major defect with the nut/stem/reg seat.
> 
> Brass is soft and will easily strip if cranked too hard with an adjustable wrench.
> 
> Further, permaseals are well known for breaking if you crank the nut down too hard. I've also seen this and is part of the reason I don't use them anymore since Linweld gives me a free nylon washer every fill.


How did the brass nut break? It's solid brass. An adjustable wrench has flat surfaces. How can you strip the nut? I don't understand how either are possible. Plus it's a $7 fix worst case. 

I've used chrome plated brass, brass, and stainless nuts. If you use the tool properly you won't leave as much of a mark on the nut, IME.

Nothing personal, but I don't get it. 

I agree that permaseals suck. If you remove the nut at an angle, or if it gets caught on the threads of the nut as you unscrew, it can fall apart. I just broke one tonight when swapping out tanks.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

The brass nut is not invincible. Brass is soft. If you crank it hard, it will strip. If you hare using a long wrench, it can easily crack(simply by over-tightening). You wouldn't believe the number of brass plumbing fittings I've seen break using a simple 10 inch pipe wrench with not that much force, simply by over-tightening. 

Here is a video GLA made on proper assembly/setup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKd31YTURbs

Notice it is just securely tightened, and not leveraged or cranked. 

Here is another link I grabbed from the front page of google:
http://www.uic.edu/labs/AMReL/regulatoruse.htm

I've dealt with a lot of regulators over the years and seen a lot of people do things like strip the cga nut. There are actually lots of questions on it here. It really does happen and cranking the nut down is not the solution to a leaky seal. If it is leaky after a nice snug fit, there is a defect somewhere.


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