# "Neglectable" tank: Cherry shrimp, Endlers, and ...what?



## Euphotica (Oct 2, 2018)

I need a tank that I can neglect completely -- no feeding, no nothing -- for at least three weeks at a time. I am very sensitive to sound so I need it to be no-air-pump. It will be near a window so light conditions while I am absent will be low to low-medium indoor daylight. I can give it more light, whatever is necessary, when I'm present in the house. 

The most important animal element will be a swarm of cherry shrimp in yellow and blue varieties, as many as the system will allow.

The other animal element with be a few yellow Endler's guppies -- as few as two or as many as six (all male)

The idea is that when I must be absent the shrimp can survive entirely on algae and biofilm and the Endlers can eat algae, biofilm, and the occasional shrimp hatchling.

In order to provide biofilm surface, and because I love plants, I want the aquarium to be heavily planted with emphasis on mossy things and something red, maybe a Rotala.

I need advice on the following questions before I can start on this.

1) Can I do this in something as small as a 12 gallon tank? 10 gallons? 8 gallons? (8 gallons would be ideal).

2) To maximize stability of good water conditions in the tank, should I go for a dirt substrate and soft-substrate plants, or should I stick to rocks and gravel with plants that grow on stone?

3) Would the tiny roots of duckweed be good food for the Endlers? Would duckweed suck so much nutrition out of the water that there wouldn't be enough algae growth to sustain the shrimp?

4) Is there something else I could add to the tank to make sure the Endlers have enough food even if the shrimp don't produce hatchlings?

5) How do snails figure in all this?

6) What potential problems and needs am I probably failing to foresee with this plan?

Thanks for all advice.


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## Ben3721 (Jan 20, 2018)

Im just going to put out there that people struggle to keep shrimp, fish, and plants alive with hours of daily effort and hundreds of dollars of tech. Abandoning a tank for weeks repetitively will most likely cause one heck of a algae explosion and high nitrates which can be fatal for shrimp. If you're planning to make this a low tech planted with stock don't be surprised when it doesn't go your way. As with any pet you have to put aside a decent amount of time to ensure their survival. I'm sure someone will come forward and brag about their micro sealed planted cherry tank surviving for 2 years but it's not the ideal conditions meant for their survival and isn't generally completely successful. Also using real light from a window will guarantee crazy amounts of algae.

I apologize if my reply isnt what your looking for. Just hate seeing someone go down the wrong road from the start.


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## sfsamm (Apr 3, 2017)

I'll just start with 3 weeks is quite long to leave a tank unattended of any kind. That said a well adjusted neocardinia colony in an established system in a planted tank with automatic lighting would in all likelihood be ok. I want to stress ok, they too will likely still suffer in your absence.

With periods up to 3 weeks that you'll be gone regularly, I'd say no on the fish and just stick with the shrimp. And do the largest tank you can. If that's 12g do 12g, as stability is difficult to maintain in a small tank and stability is vital to keeping anything in a glass cage.

Heavy planting will be to your benefit, use a plant specific, non-ammonia producing, sand substrate and get the best of both worlds. I LOVE Flourite black sand for this. Floaters whether duckweed, frogbit, salvinia etc. I'd steer clear of water lettuce as it can grow large if happy and not maintained and if it melts it can do so quickly and crash a tank. Duckweed maybe a bit high maintenance as well because of how quickly it spreads it often needs manual removal weekly. Plants like anubias and Java fern are too slow growing to help maintain water parameters much and actual rooted plants such as crypts or stems are going to work better. Anacharis, mermaid weed, comboba, hornwort are some of the better options to pull nitrAtes.

Shrimp eat more of the biofilms in the tank that establish over time. Algae itself isn't exactly their main food source though their consumption of biofilms and scavenging habits do help control it.

Snails.... In 12g, no supplemental feeding for up to three weeks and no water changes either, personally I'd skip them for now and if things remain stable down the road you could probably consider a nerite (maybe two in a 12g).

Problems :
Cycle your tank with out stock and keep it stable for a couple months before shrimp are added.
Add only a few shrimp to start, maybe a dozen.
Skip the endlers that's just a tank waiting to crash over one starved endler kicking off to fiahland while your out and spiking Ammonia in a very precariously situated tank.

Encoragements :
I've left shrimp tanks with only botanicals for feeding for months, closely monitored. I used harder botanicals such as Turkish hazel, Guava leaves, Cholla wood, etc and did so in two tanks set up slightly different. One 5g was thick with Fissidens moss about 3" deep across a 17"x7" section with some Anacharis stems and a small Crypt variety, also included one fairly large and hollow piece of Malaysian driftwood, several pieces of Cholla (6-7 5" lengths), one Turkish hazel, 2-3 Guava leaves and a Monkey pot that had been in another tank. The other 10g tank has several orphan stems, something like 6 Ludwigia, 4-5 Rotala, about a dozen Bacopa, a softball sized ball of very happy Christmas moss, some Java fern, small Crypts, a bunch of Anubias in several varieties, and some Buce. Has some scrapy driftwood (Malaysian and Spiderwood I think), 3 pieces of Cholla, a bunch of little shrimpy things with lots of surface area like a couple 2" pieces of PVC screen pipe half buried, a pile of ceramic cubes, some dome things, and was entirely covered with water lettuce I was saving overwinter to start up my pond in spring. I also kept the tanks at 68-70°F. Reproduction was slow but still present. Both received 20% water changes every other week. Both only kept shrimp during this period. Both tanks were well established and running about 2 years when I started it, both were well prepared in advance and I was there pretty much daily if anything went sideways. Nothing did. So I can honestly say that it's entirely possible to leave neos for MONTHS unfed and water changes bi-weekly were plenty sufficient. I have never been one to slack my weekly maintenance so I couldn't convince myself to wait more than two weeks to water change.  I imagine if you keep the fish and snails out and maintain an appropriately sized colony that you could find a way to clear 3 weeks on occasion without major issues. 

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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

May be controversial, why do you want it then?? 

I have tanks because I love watching them and their inhabitants. Seems a bit pointless having one to leave it alone?!

What would you do if someone/something becomes unwell during the three weeks you're not doing anything! A lot can happen in a few weeks!

I've got epilepsy and can be pretty unwell, I still make sure I look after them better than I look after myself. 

Think it's the same as having a dog or a cat, you may have a bed and an automatic feeder but nothing beats your attention and care. My opinion.


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## diverjoe (Oct 21, 2016)

I know this is a rather obtuse remark but based on my experience with my 75 I have experienced good things this Year only after leaving it alone for a couple of weeks and letting nature take its course. It was rather eye opening!


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## sfsamm (Apr 3, 2017)

diverjoe said:


> I know this is a rather obtuse remark but based on my experience with my 75 I have experienced good things this Year only after leaving it alone for a couple of weeks and letting nature take its course. It was rather eye opening!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I've had this experience more than once with tanks I was having struggles with. Sometimes not touching it is just exactly what the fish Dr ordered... Other times though it's a very terrible idea  but knowing what a tank needs only comes from observation, experience and sometimes a bit of frustration or experimentation. They're all different, every single one. 

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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

3 weeks? 6 months? No problem...


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## AutumnSky (May 19, 2012)

You say at least 3 weeks, away, that indicates more weeks you could be gone. Perhaps there could be a Tank sitter you could establish a relationship with.

It is pretty delicate for a long time on a routine basis, being away 3 week periods or more.

Often an established colony could maintain itself for shrimp [edit - with limited intervention for awhile], but when you add in fish, I would worry as mentioned something goes wrong and you have death from an ammonia spike.

If there would be snails, I would not have a Mystery snail as a larger or adult one dying can nuke a shrimp tank, if it it isn't removed.

If you had a few snails to keep up with the tank, I would keep them at a much reduced number. They poop ALOT! It would pollute the tank with out maintenance and allowed to just reproduce unlimited. Ramshorn will clean up a tank of left overs, but I would worry there would be too little food for them when you were away.

What you are thinking of seems to have many more hard to answer questions than good answers.


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## ursamajor (Oct 6, 2015)

1) Use the biggest tank you can get away with. Water parameters will me more stable and evaporation will be less of a concern. 12 gallons might work, but a 20 gallon tall (for example) would be better.

2) Stick to inert substrates.

3) - 5) Skip the fish and snails. Less waste production this way. The water will stay cleaner longer.

6) I would say if you want this tank to be super hands-off, be selective about the plants you choose and be realistic about your goals. For a low-maintenance tank that always looks good, invest lots of time and effort into the hardscape and stuff the tank with java ferns, bucephalandra, anubias, and mosses right from the start. Seriously, never even think "oh it will grow in" - buy plants and stuff them in until it looks good. Skip anything fast-growing or that needs frequent trimming. You probably won't see a lot of growth over the life of the tank, but it will be extremely stable and will always look nice.


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## Euphotica (Oct 2, 2018)

That's valuable input, everyone. Thank you.

I can do good tank management while I'm present but a couple of times a year I need to leave it. I can give it *less* light easily, if that's appropriate. With shrimp and fish to feed, duckweed over the surface, and a lot of plant biomass using up the CO2, nitrogen, and mineral nutrients, I am more worried about the algal growth being too low than too high but maybe I can cross that worry right off the list. 

I guess I could put a filter on it while I"m gone but I hadn't planned on that because I figure if I get some kind of equilibrium without a filter it might be best to not disturb it. I dunno, what do you think?


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## markalot (Apr 8, 2007)

I think if you need to do it then get a controller and a camera and have a backup plan if something goes wrong. This is my reef tank side talking, but with freshwater it would still stink (literally) to lose all the livestock. 

Way back 8 years ago I ran a 20 long with EcoComplete substrate, a piece of wood, lots of java moss and fast growing plants. No CO2, T5 normal output lighting, and lids to reduce evaporation. For the first few months I fed algae pellets for the shrimp which in turn caused an explosion in the pest snail population. I cut way back on feeding and the snail population collapsed (I caught a lot as well). With very sparse feeding (sometimes no feeding for a month) it lasted over a year and the shrimp population exploded. For some reason after a year the tank declined rapidly, the shrimp population collapsed, and eventually I lost all but a few shrimp. 

With proper care and rejuvenation I think it might work, but I would never add fish to a tank that needs to be left alone for 3 weeks unless I had a feeder I could control remotely.


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## sfsamm (Apr 3, 2017)

Euphotica said:


> That's valuable input. Thank you. I can do good tank management while I'm present but a couple of times a year I need to leave it. I can give it *less* light easily, if that's appropriate. I am more worried about the algal growth being too low than too high but maybe I can cross that worry right off the list.
> 
> I guess I could put a filter on it while I"m gone but I hadn't planned on that because I figure if I get some kind of equilibrium without a filter it might be best to not disturb it. I dunno, what do you think?


You need a filter on it from day one... Even if it's just air powered sponge filtration. That seriously isn't really negotiable. Sponge filters for smaller tanks are dirt cheap (like $2-$15) and you need a complete and stable nitrogen cycle if you hope to keep a healthy shrimp colony let alone considering adding anything else... 

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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

Please do not take this personally, but I really feel that you shouldn't be taking on responsibility for other living things when you will be leaving them for weeks at a time. 

Of course you're free to do as you wish, and I hope it does go well for your should you decide to do it, but I really would advise against this. I *could* keep a dog alive in a bathroom for >3 weeks if I left a tap on and had an automatic feeder, but it would be exactly what is stated in your title; "neglect." Just because shrimp and fish aren't as cute as other pets doesn't mean that they don't deserve the same level of care and dedication.

Now to the subject of equilibrium and balance, two buzzwords that I've seen A LOT on this forum. Although not something I'd do personally, the Walstad method is admittedly a very interesting experiment and I've got a lot of respect for those who have the dedication and experience to do it properly. The thing is that these tanks need even more input than a filtered mid-tech tank and require a huge amount of knowledge to keep going. In nature, most fish live in thousands of gallons of water, with regular "water changes" from rain and fresh run-off, have much more surface area, much denser plants, and are stocked much more lightly. Even then, there's still no "equilibrium" as the majority of fish die long before reaching adulthood. 

Now you're trying to emulate this in an 8 gallon tank. Even if your parameters stayed level while you were there, who is to say that you won't have a power cut, or abnormally warm weather, or one shrimp comes down with disease. These things can wipe out a tank even when the owner is present, but would absolutely be lethal if left for 3 weeks. 

TL;DR:
This really isn't something that should be done. Without a filter, this is just going to be a smelly box of stagnant mess when you come back from your trip. Even with a filter, you may well end up with an aerated box of mess, but at least it'll be less smelly because you'll have the nitrogen cycle in place.


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## Euphotica (Oct 2, 2018)

I have kept shrimp without food inputs for *months* and they were fine because the tank had enough nutrients to support a biofilm cycle and there was never enough light to promote an algal explosion. So I know that can part can be done. 

The Endlers put the project beyond my experience. I do not know anyone who has kept Endlers healthy and well without food inputs; but I don't know anyone who has even tried. I would expect to keep, at most, 6 Endlers in a heavily planted 12 gallon tank, maybe only 2 in an 8 gallon tank. It looks to me as though the plants would readily deal with that much ammonia even if they were just maintaining biomass, not growing. 

I'm more worried about the other things that could go wrong -- for example, plants melting from insufficient nutrition, or shrimp dying because they were simply at the end of their lives, and decomposing faster than the Endlers and the other shrimp would eat them. I don't see how I could manage around that in a tank with shrimp of varying ages. 

I wish opae ula came in more colors than red. They have much longer lives than cherry shrimp have.


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## sfsamm (Apr 3, 2017)

Anything and everything "can" go wrong when you're not there. A 3 day trip can be a massacre and a mess if a power outage hits and say your air pump polarity reverses and syphons your tank... Oh yes check valves to stop that because it actually happens yet people still don't spend $.10 to prevent to.
It doesn't sound like you like what you've heard... And I support the experiment (crusify me non believers) because without at least somewhat educated experienced people testing the limits and trying new things the hobby would never be where it is today.
That said I'm not going to tell you what can go wrong. Murphys Law. That's all.
I will say that if you do the endlers absolutely skip all snail thoughts... In my opinion. Second I think they'll may well likely survive your outings but I do not think that it will be a healthy period for them. 

I surely wouldn't risk one of my shrimp colonies for an endler or 5. Maybe I like my shrimp, maybe I don't like endlers, maybe I don't like the odds of what your considering, doesn't matter. You do you. Do it right, take your time, make sure you have as much time as possible like 6 months to a year before you ditch it for three weeks. Don't fail on the preparation and you might just succeed. At least I think there's a chance at this working out beyond the reaches of Murphys Law and statistics as I see them.

How about what could go right?? You might succeed. That's an easier question to answer. 

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## Euphotica (Oct 2, 2018)

The suggestions here about plant choices are giving me a lot to think about and read up on. I was thinking that if I *do* use duckweed, that's gonna pull out both nitrogen and mineral nutrients so fast, and block so much light from above, that maybe the other plants should be good old reliable maintainers rather than growers? But I see the value of going for diversity. I will experiment a lot.


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## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

Euphotica said:


> The suggestions here about plant choices are giving me a lot to think about and read up on. I was thinking that if I *do* use duckweed, that's gonna pull out both nitrogen and mineral nutrients so fast, and block so much light from above, that maybe the other plants should be good old reliable maintainers rather than growers? But I see the value of going for diversity. I will experiment a lot.


I would give duckweed and any rapidly growing floaters as hard no. In 3 weeks they can easily carpet your surface and choke the life out of all the plants below. Once your plants in your tank crash, the tank itself will inevitably crash as well.

If you truly want to try, then go for a host of low light requirement, low growth rate plants and stick only with shrimp and maybe snails. Don't feed the shrimps so that their numbers grow to reflect what can be sustained when you're gone for weeks on end. 

Low light, slower growth requirement plants would include your typical mosses, subwassertang, crypts, anubias, etc.


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## Boris Swede (Sep 29, 2018)

I think the limiting factor here is the tank size. If you have a larger tank with the same fish stock the system can handle the waste without so large swings in parameters.


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

I was a neglectful teenager at one point. So let me share. To start, I do not condone or support, in any way, people getting into the aquarium hobby with the intention of doing as little upkeep as possible. BUT I DO support those in the community who carefully observe, and learn, over years, how to minimize upkeep, without harming livestock.

That being said, let me share what I know.

Lighting:
The sun is a bad idea unless you live in a region that gets sun 300 days out of the year (you can Google average number of sunny days per year in _____, it's interesting data). The reason being, it is irregular, and likely way, way too strong a light source UNLESS you are in a south facing window where no direct light will enter, and reflected light is minimal. (Shady or non reflective surfaces outside the window). OTHERWISE, do research, get a light that can provide 25 PAR or less (low light). You want plant growth, but very slow, and steady.

Substrate:
Depending on what soil conditions are where you live, you may use dirt. Predominantly sandy soil is best, as it can "breath" better than thick clay. If you don't have sandy soil, consider buying a bag of builders sand at your hardware store. It should have many different size grains in it. Then mix a clay soil into it, in a very small amount. 9 parts sand to one part clay at most. This will ensure you have a looser material that can exchange gas with the water column. This helps feed bacteria and plants.
Before using it, put it on a tarp, get it wet (don't rinse the clay out) and let it dry in the sun 3 times if possible. This will reduce the likelihood of algae bloom.
If that is too much work, use sand by itself. Preferably pool filter sand, as it won't compact as much.

Plants:
You want plant mass that can survive a wide range of water parameters, and with minimal nutrients. The best I've found is hornwort and anachris (egeria densa) They will grow even with very low light, even in horrible water.
These plants will consume nitrate as stock produces it, provided you are not heavily stocked. They are also cheap, so that helps too. They aren't pretty, but your looking to keep things alive, and these will help do that.

Stock:
Endlers are very similar to guppies, which are what I used in my highschool days. Don't mix the sexes, you don't want breeding or you will lose control of your tank's balance. I honestly wouldn't put more than 3 in a 10 gallon tank. These should only be added if you are regularly taking care of the tank most of the time, this means they will have a bit of fat to help survive those three weeks alone munching on plant edges for biofilm.
If you want shrimp, put a few neos in, and feed very, very sparingly, but regularly. This means one time every three weeks if you will be gone that long. Put some Cholla wood or other highly porous surfaces for them to hunt in for biofilm and detritus.

Water:
The ideal solution is to build a PVC overflow pipe, plans for these can be found online. They basically drain water once it reaches a certain height in your tank. If you can plumb this to your drains, great. Otherwise get a relatively large second container to catch it in, and dump it every three weeks as it gets full. Then run a water line to the tank to ever so slowly fill it. What I used was a third tank of the same size as your dumping tank, filled it with water, then ran an airline tube with a little plastic valve on it. Gravity fed the water filled tube like a syphon, and it dripped in the fish tank. This is basically an automated water change system. But it's meant to run very slowly, replacing your 10 gallons of water in maybe a month if you can get the water flow right. Mine was pretty irregular, but there are people in these forums with enough plumbing experience to help get that done. Just make sure your water isnt packed full of nitrate or extremely soft (don't use distilled or purified water like RO).
This water will feed your plants, and algae, and biofilm, which will feed your shrimp and let your 2 fish graze for a few weeks.

Procedure:
Build your bacteria. Fill the tank with substrate, some porous lava rock would really help provide surface area for beneficial bacteria to grow in/on. Fill with water and plants. Let them sit for a month, preferably with your water change system running. Then add your little batch of neocaridina shrimp (cherries I assume). Carefully watch things for a month. Plants should grow a bit, shrimp should survive off a very, very small bit of food every month or so. We're talking an amount like, a 1cm long piece of a 0.7 mm pencil lead. Look at a shrimp, imagine the largest it's stomach could be, and don't do any more than that.

Remove excess plant mass as needed.


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

Alternatively.

Just put together a beautiful tank with lots of healthy shrimp and plants and regular water changes, and teach a house sitter to care for it while you are gone. Offer pay to compensate them for caring for your pets.


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

I think Blacktetra has it right, and that automatic water changing system sounds like an ingenious low-budget option.

If you are ABSOLUTELY set on doing this then I'd advise:

-Get a quiet sponge filter from the start. If you just put it on when you're away, you'll trigger a cycle and kill everything while you're gone. I believe shrimp will also graze on the bio-film that grows on them.

-Keep your tank running for at least 8 weeks before adding anything, dosing ammonia regularly. You want your tank to be as mature and biofilm-y as possible before adding livestock.

-As many others have said, fill your tank with low-light, low-effort plants. Anubias, moss, and java fern are all good options. Skip duckweed and anything fast-growing.

-Have plenty of hardscape in the form of wood, ceramic cubes, and lava rock. Basically anything porous that will host bio-film.

-Use play-sand or similarly inert substrate. You can get clay tabs very easily that will help sustain rooted plants.

-Get a timer for your light, they're not expensive and it's much more reliable than the sun. Don't put your tank in direct sunlight.

-Do a test run before actually leaving. Don't touch your tank for 3 weeks and see how livestock, plants, and algae fare. See what preparation can be done for next time.

-Skip the endlers. They're surprisingly intelligent little fish who don't deserve near starvation every time you leave. If you have to have them, add them once your shrimps have taken off so they'll have a semi-regular supply of shrimplets.

-When you get back, don't do an enormous water change right away. The change in water quality will shock your livestock, despite being much better.

I'm still not sure what you or the livestock are gaining from this when there's a host of other options out there. But I hope it goes well and that none of the creatures you've chosen to be responsible for suffer unnecessarily.


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## Surrealle (Sep 19, 2018)

Blacktetra said:


> Alternatively.
> 
> Just put together a beautiful tank with lots of healthy shrimp and plants and regular water changes, and teach a house sitter to care for it while you are gone. Offer pay to compensate them for caring for your pets.


Or, even easier, if you get a small enough tank (under 10 gal) it would be a relative cinch to bring it to someone's house for care while you're gone. 




sfsamm said:


> And I support the experiment (crusify me non believers) because without at least somewhat educated experienced people testing the limits and trying new things the hobby would never be where it is today.
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk



I agree with the concept but this sounds like a trial-by-fire situation rather than a controlled experiment where you can monitor things and step in if needed to prevent further suffering. The latter I support, the former I don't. If OP is really determined to go this route, the 3 week hands-off period needs to be thoroughly tested and confirmed successful while he/she is around, first. Anything else can, and probably will, result in unnecessary suffering brought on by selfish motivation, IMO.


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## sfsamm (Apr 3, 2017)

Surrealle said:


> I agree with the concept but this sounds like a trial-by-fire situation rather than a controlled experiment where you can monitor things and step in if needed to prevent further suffering. The latter I support, the former I don't. If OP is really determined to go this route, the 3 week hands-off period needs to be thoroughly tested and confirmed successful while he/she is around, first. Anything else can, and probably will, result in unnecessary suffering brought on by selfish motivation, IMO.


I agree 100% with this hence why I've mentioned proper prep. You can't properly prepare for something like this by reading online. You must prepare and trial and watch and be diligent before just leaving... I regularly try new things that I've determined in theory to work but never do I attempt or leave an attempt without myself having time at least daily to sit down and take in exactly what is happening and watch very closely for any issues before they become real issues. And I'm always prepared to make all necessary changes or actions to correct issues that may arise. I myself have no intention on allowing my tanks to "feel" neglected even if I am not doing my routine maintenance. 


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## Euphotica (Oct 2, 2018)

I'm glad that people don't want me to create unnecessary suffering for fish and are advising me to make sure the system is well developed and tested before I leave it. Rest assured that is my intention. This whole thing hinges on whether Endlers can live healthily from food sources renewed within the tank. Because common duckweed is a very high-protein plant, if the Endlers will eat it as well as biofilm and some algae they may do very well. If they eat it enthusiastically maybe it won't overgrow. Or maybe I can find a related duckweed that isn't quite so explosive. Whatever I do, it's going to be tested and I will examine results quantitatively, not just "yeah, looks like things are okay because nothing is dead yet". I'm a nerd that way.


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## Surrealle (Sep 19, 2018)

Euphotica said:


> If they eat it enthusiastically maybe it won't overgrow. Or maybe I can find a related duckweed that isn't quite so explosive.


You've um.. never had duckweed before, have you?

Joking aside, I have guppies in my 60 gal, and I've been actively trying to get rid of the dw fully since Aug 2017, lol. The overall goal you're proposing is certainly possible, but likely not with the combination of flora/fauna you have in mind.


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## Euphotica (Oct 2, 2018)

Can you plant vals in your tank? Vallisneria emits a chemical that slows down duckweed growth. Doesn't work if you change the water a lot though, because it needs time to build up an effective concentration.


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

Not to be contradictory. But people are recommending slow growing plants. Those aren't bad. Anubias would probably do just fine, and mosses could provide a lot of crannies for the shrimp to hunt through for food.

I recommended hornwort and anachris which are faster growers, and I recommended them based on my experience. They do grow more quickly, but you want plants that will grow as fast as nutrients allow, and make the best of an imbalanced set of nutrients. Those two plants are adept at doing that in my personal experience. Other, fast growing plants will suffer, die, and decompose if they run out of proper nutrients, but these two plants often seem to slow down, and grow to match nutrient availability. This benefit means you will be less likely to have an excess of nitrate.

Lastly, @Thelongsnail is right when he recommends not doing large water changes when you return. The larger the water change, and the longer the wait between changes, the more likely you are to harm or kill your livestock. Gradual changes are best.


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## sfsamm (Apr 3, 2017)

I agree with blacktetra on the plants. I don't think slow growers are in your best interest, but obsessively fast growers (like duckweed) are just as bad. A happy medium with plants that can quickly adjust to nutrient levels is best. They may be a little unruly after three weeks but not obscene and killing themselves or other plants off like duckweed is apt to do in the same period. Slow growers on the other hand just won't be pulling the nutrients from the water you're apt to need when you are away.
I also like crypts for a root plant that does well in lower light and star repens as both seem (for me) to grow in direct relation to nutrition and lighting available and at a pace that is absolutely easily managed once they adjust and get established.

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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

I discouraged fast growers because of the dying off aspect, but plants that will grow as fast as nutrients will allow without die off would be the perfect choice. I have to admit that my knowledge of plants is very limited, so I wouldn't consider this advice to be contradictory at all!

One plant species I was going to mention but wasn't sure on was elodia - if planted sparingly, would it take over a tank in 3 weeks? I used to use it in a small daphnia culture and it did extremely well at sustaining the jar, pearling in just sunlight and growing at a manageable pace without die-off. I didn't want to recommend something that could potentially wipe out the tank though as daphnia will live in just about anything.
@Blacktetra, not that it really matters but I just wanted to point out that I'm *she


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## Surrealle (Sep 19, 2018)

Euphotica said:


> Can you plant vals in your tank? Vallisneria emits a chemical that slows down duckweed growth. Doesn't work if you change the water a lot though, because it needs time to build up an effective concentration.


Interesting, I didn't know that. I do have vals in my tank, it seems to be one of the few things that likes my low tech.

In any case, the point is largely moot now as I *think* I've gotten the last of it (famous last words). My main issue was that it was mixed in with water lettuce I wanted to keep, so that was fun to rinse out/separate. Fortunately, after the last big cleanout, the lettuce took over and minimized where the dw could grow, so my last attack a few weeks ago appears to have been successful. We shall see..


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I'll throw in my two cents, because I had a tank I left without water changes for nearly a month. It was this one 20 H window tank. I didn't originally intend to leave it so long between water changes, but when I found the nitrates were always testing zero at the end of each week, I decided to go longer and just change water when nitrates started to rise. However my fish eventually got what looked like some fungus on his back, so I don't let it go so long anymore, now I always do a wc at least every other week (the contents of that 20H tank have all transferred to my new 33L which I'm running the same way).

Well here's what I did in case any of it is useful info for you: my tank was in front of a NE window. Indirect sunlight (lots of trees shade the house) and I further diffused the light with plastic between window pane and tank. I don't have a heater on it (I didn't see mention of a heater in your plan). I don't add ferts in this tank either. I use safe-t-sorb for substrate (fired clay, high cation capacity). 

What has grown well in my tank: hornwort, salvinia minima, vallisneria, crypt willisii, crypt becketti, crypt lutea, subwassertang, anubias nana. I also have windelov fern in there, which always has a few leaves dying so it struggles some. Another option for floater is spiodela polyrhiza- I have that in my betta tank. Its larger and doesn't spread as fast as the common duckweed. Bolbitis fern does ok for me, but grows _really_ slow. Moss- I think it was java moss or taiwan moss- grew pretty well, but I didn't like having to trim it all the time. It would collect debris shrimps coud pick through, I think. 

Using cuttings of pothos and sweet potato vine on the back of my tank really knocked down the nitrate levels- that's when I started doing wc less frequently. But it also probably slows up the growth of my other plants because it seems to use the nutrients up quickly. That's my guess.

I have ramshorn snails in the tank and malaysian trumpet snails (my fish eats the ramshorn). I would feel fine leaving my paradise fish unfed for two or three weeks, if it was once in a great while - like an occasional vacation. I wouldn't leave him alone for so long on a regular basis so I can't say anything about your fish choice. But probably shrimps would be able to feed themselves, especially if you add leaf litter to the tank. Some of my other tanks have shrimps and they are constantly feeding on the oak leaves I put in there, and algae off the plants.


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## FishRFriendz (Dec 21, 2016)

One of my betta and cherry shrimp tanks has had a broke pump for about 4-5 months. I don't do water changes to that tank, just RO top offs. Only feed the betta once a day, so feeding is very light, just a few of those betta pellets. She's always fat tho so she's eating baby shrimp. Originally started with remineralized water around 200-250 TDS, and still reads in that range. Pothos and duckweed have been keeping the nutrients down i guess.


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## diverjoe (Oct 21, 2016)

This has been such an interesting thread to follow. Rather than spend the entire time lurching in the shadows I decided to share a thought or two that kept crossing my mind as I have been reading. First is regarding “killing” fish. I don’t think that any of us on these threads are out to discover ways to mid-treat our little friends. But, from experience I can tell you that I have been complicit in a number of deaths. Some that were truthfully unnoticed for quite a while and some that were just heartbreaking. All that we do here is experiment in recreating an environment that we truely know little of. Even the thought leaders who have had a tremendous track record of success kill fish. Just how it happens. Over the last couple years I have taken a path to really begin to understand as much of the intricacies of an aquatic environment. The more I learn the stupider I become. Who can really explain gh/kh/ph interplay? Lots of folks have lots of good info but the rabbit hole goes really deep! Even suppose you get that right then we can talk about light spectrum and lumens. 

All this effort will NEVER fully recreate their native environment that they have carved a niche out of across thousands of years. 

At the end of the day <begin opinion> I understand that all the little critters were placed here for us to enjoy. Not abuse but enjoy. I ate fish last night for dinner. I enjoyed it immensely! I later sat in front of my tank and enjoyed my little piece of fishes from across the globe. Give an effort to safeguard their well-being, enjoy then when you are home, miss them when you are gone. Thank Him that gave you that little bit of pleasure. <end opinion>

Thanks for listening to the ramble. Continue to discuss things. I learn more and my little fishies get a little better chance of surviving a little longer 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

Thelongsnail said:


> @*Blacktetra*, not that it really matters but I just wanted to point out that I'm *she



You have my apologies, I made a bad assumption.



Euphotica said:


> Can you plant vals in your tank? Vallisneria emits a chemical that slows down duckweed growth. Doesn't work if you change the water a lot though, because it needs time to build up an effective concentration.


Thank you, I had never heard that, learn something new every day. That must explain why I've never understood why people were worried about duckweed becoming invasive. I've only ever had it in a tank full of vals where the growth was relatively quick, but not an impossible nuisance.


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## haralds (Jul 19, 2009)

I have a Fluval Edge that is heavily planted and has shrimp, snails, one dwarf cory, one guppy, and a smallish male betta (!)

When I started out the tank need CO2 to get the plants going, but now they are thriving without it. There were a few neons and a couple more guppies, but they ended up dying over time. When they slowly died off, most of them "disappeared" without a problem before I noticed.

When I had the shrimp they first seemed to have disappeared, but ended up thriving and are now all over the tank. Surprisingly the betta does not bother the shrimp.
I feed mostly once every other day with an occasional additional feeding.

The tank is heated to 76℉ and has a quiet motor filer - definitely needed for compensating for the small opening in the Fluval.
There is artificial lighting that runs 12 hours a day (12V halogen bulb replacements.) With the critters there is NO algae problem. I do not ever have to clean the glass.

I have left the tank for up to a week on trips, but have not tried longer. I suspect up to two weeks would be fine.

But the biggest issue is evaporation. Unless you set up a replenishment system, this might be a real problem for three weeks.

I am thinking about adding some Endlers.


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## Euphotica (Oct 2, 2018)

At any less than 20 gallons I would definitely need to put a good piece of glass over the tank unless I rigged up a drip replenishment as suggested. In my OP I was thinking of 12 gallons max (a 15 gallon tank, minus the volume of substrate and rocks and wood and stuff) But I'm thinking now if I try this it should really be a 20.


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## Euphotica (Oct 2, 2018)

Re getting the plants a good start, I think if I use emersive spp (plants that normally grow in nature with their tops out of water at least part of the year, and usually during early phases of growth) I would start them in a muck tank (wet dirt in the bottom but no standing water above the level of the dirt) where the roots will develop a lot faster. I like that because it helps stabilize the substrate as well as saving the plants from the double stress of having to adjust to immersion and grow roots at the same time. 

Roots perform respiration (use oxygen, emit CO2) but do not perform photosynthesis (use CO2, emit oxygen) so I think -- no evidence, this is just my speculation -- good root development *before* filling the tank should avoid low-CO2 problems after the tank is filled.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

As an experiment I kept up a 10g QT that was originally housing some neons.

It had a mass of floating hornwort and a large population of bladder snails creating waste.

The filter was a bottle filter with some ceramic noodles and powered by an air pump to circulate water.

Tank was under DIY 3w leds. Good light, but Idk PAR.

Three months later, despite all the waste in the tank and zero maintenance or water changes, water parameters were perfect. Tank had reached a stasis. 

Floating hornwort was surviving/thriving, organic material from plant was eaten by snails.. And the tiny filter was converting ammonia to nitrates to feed the plant. Water was crystal clear without any maintenance.

I could probably have added some shrimp to this tiny eco system and they would have survived. Whatever lived in there would have to receive its sustenance from plant matter.

Its possible you could set up a self contained eco system like this that didn't take any maintenance.


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## Swanygirl (Oct 11, 2018)

An automatic fish feeder:

https://www.amazon.com/Xubox-Automa...ocphy=9003604&hvtargid=pla-387026544147&psc=1

A timer on your lights.
An underwater filter.

I know that endlers are smaller than guppies, but my guppies will dismember my and consume adult shrimp.

Once the bacteria is established, you are good to go.

What's the big deal? My only suggestion, is to go with as large as a tank as possible.


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## sazure (Jul 29, 2016)

*Co2 build up at night*

See link and paragraph below. "When the tank is dark the process reverses and the plants use oxygen." and "When light is not available, i.e. when it is dark, they do not have an energy source for photosynthesis, and so cannot fix CO2 and produce O2, but of course they must continue to respire to stay alive (and hence continue to produce CO2), so they become net producers of CO2."


Please, don't have anything that is living in such a set up without maintenance. YOU are the responsible party for keeping living things in a tidbit of nature and without nature's influence (rain, natural filtration systems, runoff of waste and many ongoing second by second ecosystem occurrences) your tank will TANK. And any form of stress is painful for any living system.

Why not have an algae or moss tank. I used to find round globes (lamp covers and they are as big as 34 inches - took me a long time to find out what they were after I found one at a plastic place in NYC then they went out of business). Grow moss on forms of wood, you don't need much substrate - just enough for the bio "bugs" that live in it. 

Even then, I always drained water off from the bottom of my various aquariums - ranging from 20 long to 100 gallon and then large globes, and slowly trickled in heated, filtered water (NYC water on the East side was nasty). 

That said, what got me started on this hobby - was a lovely neighbor when I was about 11. She had a back room with sunlight (not direct but bright) and had the old metal framed long and narrow tank. It was full of thin narrow Sagittaria (I think my plant books are long gone) but it was like a forest... the old plain greyish guppies (long before the varieties were common - this was in the 60's) One could see bubbles of air coming from the plants... baby guppies provided food.

So she got me started. Back then the filtrations and other equipment was pretty rudimentary. I found the great books of Dr. Innes - and mature my 20 gallon for months, slowly adding plants and so on and then slowly added fish a few each week. This give the bio bugs (organisms) time to adopt.

But I had no air bubber and I noted clucking sounds one night (went downstairs for water).

At night plants take up oxygen and give off Co2 - so I added a bubbler. See link to an article.

The main problem with so called EI aquariums that attempt to do a natural aquarium (which was in the Dr. Innes books from the 30's and 40's so not really new at all, as well in other countries) is that all take some maintenance. That is because it is NOT nature - rains up river and this refreshes the oxygen levels down stream even at night. Turbulence and falls do so as well. And on and on.

It is not nature but a slice of nature in a glass container and it needs at least some minimal effort to do the work that nature would.

...................................

https://www.quora.com/Do-plants-emit-carbon-dioxide-at-night

Plants produce CO2 (Carbon dioxide) all the time as a metabolic product of respiration, but when light is available, they can use and fix some of this CO2 as a substrate in photosynthesis. When light is available, they also take up additional CO2 from the surrounding atmosphere, and one of the the end products of photosynthesis is O2 (molecular oxygen), so when light is available, on net balance they use/fix more CO2 into other molecules than they produce, and so produce more O2 than CO2.

When light is not available, i.e. when it is dark, they do not have an energy source for photosynthesis, and so cannot fix CO2 and produce O2, but of course they must continue to respire to stay alive (and hence continue to produce CO2), so they become net producers of CO2.

Depending on the species of plant and the environmental conditions, most plants are net fixers/users of CO2 and producers of O2 when averaged out over the course of a light/dark photoperiod (usually 24 hours).



https://www.thesprucepets.com/low-oxygen-in-aquarium-water-1381215

Live Plants

Although it is not a common occurrence, live plants can be a root cause of low oxygen in an aquarium. Plants use CO2 and give off oxygen when exposed to light. 
When the tank is dark the process reverses and the plants use oxygen. If the aquarium has reduced no light for a lengthy period of time, the plants could deplete enough of the oxygen to cause the fish to be affected.

The obvious solution is to increase the lighting. Keep in mind that algae do the same thing as your live plants, so even if you don’t have live plants, this problem can occur in a tank that is heavily overgrown with algae.





.....................................................................

Bump: See link and paragraph below. "When the tank is dark the process reverses and the plants use oxygen." and "When light is not available, i.e. when it is dark, they do not have an energy source for photosynthesis, and so cannot fix CO2 and produce O2, but of course they must continue to respire to stay alive (and hence continue to produce CO2), so they become net producers of CO2."


So essentially you would be harming your living species in doing so. They might survive - coming to the surface to breathe (I've even seen snails do this) but it's a horrific way to live - and if the Ph is off it causes acidity. Like you being cut off from Oxygen.

Please, don't have anything that is living in such a set up without maintenance. YOU are the responsible party for keeping living things in a tidbit of nature and without nature's influence (rain, natural filtration systems, runoff of waste and many ongoing second by second ecosystem occurrences) your tank will TANK. And any form of stress is painful for any living system.

Why not have an algae or moss tank. I used to find round globes (lamp covers and they are as big as 34 inches - took me a long time to find out what they were after I found one at a plastic place in NYC then they went out of business). Grow moss on forms of wood, you don't need much substrate - just enough for the bio "bugs" that live in it. 

Even then, I always drained water off from the bottom of my various aquariums - ranging from 20 long to 100 gallon and then large globes, and slowly trickled in heated, filtered water (NYC water on the East side was nasty). 

That said, what got me started on this hobby - was a lovely neighbor when I was about 11. She had a back room with sunlight (not direct but bright) and had the old metal framed long and narrow tank. It was full of thin narrow Sagittaria (I think my plant books are long gone) but it was like a forest... the old plain greyish guppies (long before the varieties were common - this was in the 60's) One could see bubbles of air coming from the plants... baby guppies provided food.

So she got me started. Back then the filtrations and other equipment was pretty rudimentary. I found the great books of Dr. Innes - and mature my 20 gallon for months, slowly adding plants and so on and then slowly added fish a few each week. This give the bio bugs (organisms) time to adopt.

But I had no air bubber and I noted clucking sounds one night (went downstairs for water).

At night plants take up oxygen and give off Co2 - so I added a bubbler. See link to an article.

The main problem with so called EI aquariums that attempt to do a natural aquarium (which was in the Dr. Innes books from the 30's and 40's so not really new at all, as well in other countries) is that all take some maintenance. That is because it is NOT nature - rains up river and this refreshes the oxygen levels down stream even at night. Turbulence and falls do so as well. And on and on.

It is not nature but a slice of nature in a glass container and it needs at least some minimal effort to do the work that nature would.

...................................

https://www.quora.com/Do-plants-emit-carbon-dioxide-at-night

Plants produce CO2 (Carbon dioxide) all the time as a metabolic product of respiration, but when light is available, they can use and fix some of this CO2 as a substrate in photosynthesis. When light is available, they also take up additional CO2 from the surrounding atmosphere, and one of the the end products of photosynthesis is O2 (molecular oxygen), so when light is available, on net balance they use/fix more CO2 into other molecules than they produce, and so produce more O2 than CO2.

When light is not available, i.e. when it is dark, they do not have an energy source for photosynthesis, and so cannot fix CO2 and produce O2, but of course they must continue to respire to stay alive (and hence continue to produce CO2), so they become net producers of CO2.

Depending on the species of plant and the environmental conditions, most plants are net fixers/users of CO2 and producers of O2 when averaged out over the course of a light/dark photoperiod (usually 24 hours).



https://www.thesprucepets.com/low-oxygen-in-aquarium-water-1381215

Live Plants

Although it is not a common occurrence, live plants can be a root cause of low oxygen in an aquarium. Plants use CO2 and give off oxygen when exposed to light. 
When the tank is dark the process reverses and the plants use oxygen. If the aquarium has reduced no light for a lengthy period of time, the plants could deplete enough of the oxygen to cause the fish to be affected.

The obvious solution is to increase the lighting. Keep in mind that algae do the same thing as your live plants, so even if you don’t have live plants, this problem can occur in a tank that is heavily overgrown with algae.


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## sazure (Jul 29, 2016)

At least used a small bubble for the reasons I gave in my post - Co2 buildup at night due to plants reversing their process. It seems few who state they have done what you want mention this. Few are up at night (I was up very late even as a child and observed this back in the early 60's and read up on why - then went out to get a bubbler. They can be had now for very little and some are silent. (I had one that rattled on the shelving I built so I just put it on a padded box. Make sure the air sources is clean and no cleaners so on. Even small hang on back filters can take the place and keep things in great shape - it is amazing what can be found now.


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## sazure (Jul 29, 2016)

*One last point.*

Here is a link with pro's and con's. Having bred betta's (where it's ok as they can live in a puddle of mud) it is incorrect - in their native environments (there are even Betta's that are in groups) they are in river systems which again have a source of many things that nature provides. When there is a low level of oxygen they can go to the surface but prefer breathing through their gills. 

As well, in an aquariums situation if the various parameters are off - fish gills literally get "frittered". They consist of many fine layers of tissue (actually it's complicated and different types of fish have different structures) but in all this delicate area is damaged when water parameters are off.




*Can Shrimps Survive without pump and filter?*

Can Shrimps Survive without pump and filter?... 

yes just 2 shrimps will survive .. CRS are more fragile & sensitive thou. but you need to add algae in it and moderate light *shrimp* feed on the microorganism, poo , create CO2, absorb by plants with light, give O2 to shrimps.






Most fish exchange gases like oxygen and carbon dioxide using gills on both sides of the pharynx (throat). Gills are tissues that are like short threads, protein structures called filaments. These filaments have many functions including the transfer of ions and water, as well as the exchange of oxygen, carbon dioxide, acids and ammonia.[1][2] Each filament contains a capillary network that provides a large surface area for exchanging oxygen and carbon dioxide. Fish exchange gases by pulling oxygen-rich water through their mouths and pumping it over their gills. In some fish, capillary blood flows in the opposite direction to the water, causing counter-current exchange. The gills push the oxygen-poor water out through openings in the sides of the pharynx. Some fish, like sharks and lampreys, possess multiple gill openings. However, bony fish have a single gill opening on each side. This opening is hidden beneath a protective bony cover called the operculum.


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## rakali (Sep 19, 2019)

@Euphotica Did you ever attempt this tank? I'm in the middle of setting up something very similar. I was encouraged by reading about a riparium called Tom's Bucket o' Mud. He left his tank unattended for up to 6 weeks and it seemed to thrive. My tank is setup in a school and I want it to survive the summer with very little maintenance. You can see the tank journal for it here. I'm also considering Endlers. My tank is set up as a riparium with a refugium behind a screen in the tank. I've added scuds and snails and plenty of plants. I'll be adding moina, daphnia magna, blackworms, ostracods, infusoria. I added green water and filter sludge when I set the tank up. I'll be adding black water and more greenwater algae shortly. The main inhabitants will be cherry shrimp. I'll add about 8 male endlers in about a month and that's it.


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