# German Blue Ram Day One question



## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

I boutght a male GBR yesterday from LFS and put it in my 29g heavily planted tank, which was established over a year ago. Temperature = 82 F. I must say this is the prettiest and cutest freshwater fish I have had. The fish seemed to be shy at the beginning but began to take on snails within an hour, and keeps doing so this morning. He will eat them and then spit them out, very funny. No other fish does that. However when I fed flake food to all the other community fish, although they were excited and all came up to eat, the GBR doesn't seem to be interested at all, but keeps on attacking snails on the plant. This gets me worried a bit. Is this normal behavior? Should I try other food (I have frozen bloodwrom, frozen brine shrimps, freeze dired blood worms)? My LFS has 72 hr return policy and I would really hate to see the GBR die in my tank.:icon_roll


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## Ebichua (May 13, 2008)

They take a while to convert to flakes in my experience. Feed either live worms or frozen bloodworms. They should take those readily.


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## Kooka (Feb 27, 2007)

My rams eat flakes, but they chew them, and spit out a cloud of uneaten bits back out into the water. Try obtaining a regular supply of brine shrimp and bloodworms as this food is much more suitable for them.

Good luck with your new rams, you'll love them!!!


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

Contrary to what most people believe, fish do not die if they are without food for a couple of hours.  Rams (like all cichlids) are more intelligent than most other fish - which means they usually act weird. The fact that he is taking interest in his environment is a good sign, just give him some time and let him play with the snails. 

You can try frozen bloodworms first (rams tend to go nuts about everything wormy), but my gold rams love flakes and even take them from the surface.


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

thanks ppl. I will try some frozen bloodworm or shrimps. I shall report back how he does.


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

Day Two update: He's eating frozen bloodworms and all over the place now. I am so happy! I can't wait to get him a mate! Thanks everyone!


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

All of my new fish are fed frozen bloodworms, brine, and mysis. They take to it much faster than flake food, especially picky eaters.

It took maybe a month to get my rams (R.I.P.) to go completely on flake/dry food. I still gave them frozen foods once or twice a week as a treat. They got the leftovers from feeding coral.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

when i had rams, at first they would steal algae wafers from my SAEs for food, and eat snails. then they started catching the flakes that fell down from the surface. after a few weeks they were up at the surface fighting for food with the rest of the fish.


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## rpayer (Jun 9, 2008)

My rams eat basically anything I drop in the tank. On average they get Hikari Cichlid Gold, Spectra +A, and frozen cyclops. They will also nip at the algae wafers and shrimp pellets I drop in for the cories.


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

Day Three update: things are progressing quickly! He's now able to come to the top and compete for freeze dried bloodworms with other fish! And it's kinda gross, that he ate a poop hanging under another fish, and didn't spit it out! Thanks everyone for the tips!:fish:


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## Kooka (Feb 27, 2007)

Thats a really nice Ram you have there!

I would slowly try and add some flakes into his diet, and provide other live foods like your doing now. Rams also liek to peck at anything that moves in the the tank, its a sign of intelligent fish behavior which is commonplace with cichlids. As for getting him a mate, look for a female that acts fiesty, has a plump, dark red looking belly, and extremely vivid coloration.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

The GBRs that I had several years ago were very shy. I always had trouble keeping them for very long-usually less than a year. The batch I got a couple of months ago are the complete opposite. When I walk into the room and go to the tank all four bolt to the top of the tank and swim frantically back and forth. They remind me of what a dog acts like when you grab their bowl to feed them! They eat from the surface and then when that is gone they head to the bottom to chase all comers away from the shrimp pellets and algae wafers. They are the coolest fish without a doubt. Really "pet" like if you know what I mean. They'll even let me touch them when I do water changes.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Actually, he's a smart ram to eat another fish's poop- it's a quick way for him to develop the intestinal bacteria he needs to digest the foods that you typically feed your fish.

Kinda gross- but actually, a lot of baby animals eat their parents poop for exactly this reason.


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

I have a very sad news to report. My GBR was bottom up this morning after I did a 20% water change last night. All the other fish are fine, including the few cardinal tetras that I bought with the GBR. Looks like he is very sensitive to the water change. Or maybe he's sensitive to the de-chlorination chemical that I added to the tap water? I feel very very sorry for him. I am gonna miss him a lot.

What are your experiences with water change with GBR?


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## zzyzx85 (Feb 13, 2008)

I never had GBRs but I do have apistos. How quickly did you do the water change? With my apistos, I encountered problems when I replaced water quickly. Now I know to replace water slowly, 50% slowly added in via Python.


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## Bugman (Jan 7, 2008)

GBR's are very sensitive to water parameters and can become stressed very quickly. Tank water needs to be very clean for them. I usually do about a hour acclimation with all of my new fish, floating the bag and slowly adding tank water to it, but this is particularly important with GBR's. The other issue with GBR's is knowing the source of the fish. A lot of them come from overseas and have been pumped with hormones to enhance the color. These fish do not fare well. It helps to know the source you LFS uses. I try to always get them from someone who has tank raised them or knows they were tanks raised.


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

zzyzx85 said:


> I never had GBRs but I do have apistos. How quickly did you do the water change? With my apistos, I encountered problems when I replaced water quickly. Now I know to replace water slowly, 50% slowly added in via Python.


I did it within half an hour from scooping water out to adding water in.


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## zzyzx85 (Feb 13, 2008)

IMHO, I think that might have done it. I lost 2 apistos after adding water about 30 minutes after removing 50%. Now, I add water for about 1 to 1.5 hours (really slow for a 55g).

Maybe I was unlucky the first time around but I'll always add the water slowly now. Gives them time to acclimate.


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## cyberhog05 (Jan 5, 2009)

My mated pair of GBRs are not affected what so ever when I do 50% water changes in my 110. As of late I have been doing them about 3 X's a week. I use aged RO mixed with 20% well water that is the same temp as in the tank. Its nice to know that nobody is putting crap in my water. I think buying an RO unit if you have crap tap water is a wise investment. I had to buy one because my well water kh/gh was retarded high and my discus just werent feeling it!


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## zzyzx85 (Feb 13, 2008)

cyberhog05 said:


> My mated pair of GBRs are not affected what so ever when I do 50% water changes in my 110. As of late I have been doing them about 3 X's a week. I use aged RO mixed with 20% well water that is the same temp as in the tank. Its nice to know that nobody is putting crap in my water. I think buying an RO unit if you have crap tap water is a wise investment. I had to buy one because my well water kh/gh was retarded high and my discus just werent feeling it!


Sorry if you misunderstood me but I was talking about how quickly he changes the water, not the quantity changed. I believe that performing a w/c too quickly will put the fish in shock.


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## Bugman (Jan 7, 2008)

While I take great care in slowly acclimating new Rams I don't do anything special with water changes. I have GBR's in 5 of my tanks (1 pr in each). Three of these tanks I do a 50% water change on weekly due to EI dosing. In a matter of 45 minutes to 1 hour, I have drained 50%, trimmed the plants and refilled the tank and have had absolutely no issues with any of my fish. Actually it is the water change that puts the GBR's into the "mood". Almost immediately after the change their color really darkens and they start digging nest. As long as you are not disturbing the substrate with the w/c and creating a spike in your parameters I don't think there is a issue.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

I agree with Bugman. Water parameter shifts typically can induce "barry white music in the bckground". (Within reason of course).

However, GBR's can die off quickly with a huge pH swing with the water change, huge shift in temperature or induced stress from the envrionement (churned up gunk from substrate, other fish getting spooked and stressing the fish, etc etc.)

I love the look of GBR, but they are just to prone to dropping dead out of no where.


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## MrJG (Feb 21, 2007)

I personally think that it has a lot to do with quality of stock as well. The pairs of gold and blue rams I have in separate tanks came from a local breeder with a great reputation for quality fish. No hormones/steroids to worry about if you can find someone local who tank raises. I usually get the Barry White effect from the water change too. 

About the same I do 50% water changes on both tanks weekly from the tap (with prime of course) matching temp as close as I can. I know our local water is fairly soft already so maybe that's helping a little but I've never had any problems. Actually I did probably close to a 90% WC on one of the tanks last night in about an hour and basically nuked it with a 2x dose of Excel afterwards (trying to fight back spirogyra), all fauna/shrimp have no ill effects as of this morning. I definitely don't recommend doing that BTW. I'm going to remove them as I continue to do this the rest of the week to lessen the stress it might cause while I try to get rid of this evil algae.


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

Below is our local water treatment info. In the last row, the ammonnia could be as high as 1.33 ppm, which can be very toxic to fish, especially GBR. When I treat the water, I only dechlorinated it, nothing done against the ammonnia. Is there a chemical/commercial product that does both? Thanks!

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Treatment Process Information
The treatment process information contained in the following table does not represent what is in the Finished Water. The dosages listed for each chemical represents a range of concentrations for that chemical that may be used at the Water Plant during the water treatment process. 

*Chemical (units)*
*Typical Dosage Range*​*Purpose of Treatment*​Ozone (ppm)
​4.7 – 6.0​Oxidant
Aluminum Sulfate (ppm)
​37 – 55​Coagulant
Polymer (ppm)
​0.15 – 0.33​Coagulant aid
Sodium Hydroxide (ppm)
​6 – 26​pH control
Carbon (ppm)
​0 – 9.0​Odor control
Polymer (ppm)
​0.06 – 0.21​Filter aid
Orthophosphate
​0 – 2.95​Corrosion control
Hydrofluorosilicic Acid (ppm)
​0 – 1.13​Fluoride additive
Chlorine (ppm)
​4.72 – 11.96​Disinfectant
Ammonia (ppm)
*No ammonia is fed during
March of each year
​0 – 1.33​Disinfectant


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

What is your PH? Even captivity-bred rams thrive in very soft, very acidic water (which conveniently takes care of the ammonia issue as well). Considering that you have cardinals and rams, you may want to look into an acid-pool style aquarium.


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

x2h said:


> Below is our local water treatment info. In the last row, the ammonnia could be as high as 1.33 ppm, which can be very toxic to fish, especially GBR. When I treat the water, I only dechlorinated it, nothing done against the ammonnia. Is there a chemical/commercial product that does both? Thanks!
> 
> -------------------------------------
> 
> ...


 prime does


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

Aquarist_Fist said:


> What is your PH? Even captivity-bred rams thrive in very soft, very acidic water (which conveniently takes care of the ammonia issue as well). Considering that you have cardinals and rams, you may want to look into an acid-pool style aquarium.


pH = 8.6. Is that good or bad?


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

fishsandwitch said:


> prime does


Thanks. Is it available in Petsmart?


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

x2h said:


> pH = 8.6. Is that good or bad?


That is WAY too high! Way, way too high. Are you sure about this? In fact, it is so high that he must have been under so much stress that anything could have killed him. Plus, in high-PH tanks, ammonia is more toxic than in low-PH settings. Here is a short article: http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/pH-Ammonia.htm

The same is by the way true for you cardinals, even though they tend to be a little more tolerant, especially the captive-bred ones. 

You have two options:

1. Don't try keeping rams. There is no way they could live in this water.

2. Get your PH down significantly. Rams thrive in water between 4.5 - 6.5, so you'll probably have to use RO water. 

Alternatively, there are many beautiful African cichlids out there that would thrive in your water. Just do your homework before buying - they tend to be nasty aggressive little buggers.


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

Aquarist_Fist said:


> That is WAY too high! Way, way too high. Are you sure about this? In fact, it is so high that he must have been under so much stress that anything could have killed him. Plus, in high-PH tanks, ammonia is more toxic than in low-PH settings. Here is a short article: http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/pH-Ammonia.htm
> 
> The same is by the way true for you cardinals, even though they tend to be a little more tolerant, especially the captive-bred ones.
> 
> ...


I am sorry I misunderstood your question. The pH 8.6 refers to the report of my local water company. I just measured my tank water pH to be 7.0, and my tap water pH is 7.5 or a little higher, but definitely less than 8.0. I guess the combination of high pH and ammonia in the new tap water stressed the GBR to death. I guess I have to either invest in RO water or find a way to lower the pH before adding new water in. Thanks for the advice!


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## requiem (Oct 25, 2008)

just to chime in - I also think it highly depends on the source of the GBR's. I had some I bought from a generic lfs, the rams had beautiful colors - and all died within a month. I went to a specialty store that sells only freshwater, and my rams lived a nice long life.

From what I've read, cheap rams = from asia and full of hormones yes. good rams = from germany (hence the G  ). Of course that is a generalisation but it seems to be true. Ask your lfs where they are from. If they mumble 'oh from my distributor...' and don't really know much else or won't tell you, pass on the purchase


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

x2h said:


> I am sorry I misunderstood your question. The pH 8.6 refers to the report of my local water company. I just measured my tank water pH to be 7.0, and my tap water pH is 7.5 or a little higher, but definitely less than 8.0. I guess the combination of high pH and ammonia in the new tap water stressed the GBR to death. I guess I have to either invest in RO water or find a way to lower the pH before adding new water in. Thanks for the advice!


Hm, that's better though far from ideal. But with something around 7, you may get away without RO water. Are you already dosing CO2? That helps a little of course. Then there is peat moss. If you don't mind black water (well, rather amber), this is the best thing you can possible do for rams and cardinals because it resembles the water where they come from.


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

Aquarist_Fist said:


> Hm, that's better though far from ideal. But with something around 7, you may get away without RO water. Are you already dosing CO2? That helps a little of course. Then there is peat moss. If you don't mind black water (well, rather amber), this is the best thing you can possible do for rams and cardinals because it resembles the water where they come from.


OK thanks for the tips. I don't dose CO2 at all. What's black water? Where can I get it?


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## Kooka (Feb 27, 2007)

You can get ready mixed blackwater extract at your local FS, or you can also put some peat in your filter by placing it in filter bags and allowing the water current to wash over it. Blackwater is very beneficial for GBR's and tetras, and it even might stimulate them into spawning. 

As for water changes, I usually change 10-20% of the water in my GBR tank every week. Prisitine water conditions are absolutely necessary to successfully keep GBR's and for them to reproduce. You should pour the water in using the python hose, or slowly pour it in using a glass pyrex measuring cup. Also, make sure you let the water stand for 24 hours or more so that all the chlorine can dissipitate. RO water is also excellent, but isnt required.


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

Kooka said:


> You can get ready mixed blackwater extract at your local FS, or you can also put some peat in your filter by placing it in filter bags and allowing the water current to wash over it. Blackwater is very beneficial for GBR's and tetras, and it even might stimulate them into spawning.
> 
> As for water changes, I usually change 10-20% of the water in my GBR tank every week. Prisitine water conditions are absolutely necessary to successfully keep GBR's and for them to reproduce. You should pour the water in using the python hose, or slowly pour it in using a glass pyrex measuring cup. Also, make sure you let the water stand for 24 hours or more so that all the chlorine can dissipitate. RO water is also excellent, but isnt required.


Thanks. What's peat and where can I get it?:thumbsup:


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

Many LFS carry it, online may be cheaper. Big Al's, for instance, has all kinds of products, check them out: http://www.bigalsonline.com/edealin...its=&sortby=&query=peat&submit.x=0&submit.y=0

Your water will have a distinct tint (hard to describe: dark brown but not muddy) like very, very thin coffee. Some people don't like it, but it is really good for the fish and resembles their natural habitat. I think it looks beautiful - especially with cardinals.


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

wait a minute. The peat moss extract that makes the black water is already in my substrate. I think that's why my tank pH is 7.0 while my tap water pH is >7.5. And my water looks a bit yellow if I scoop it out in a white container. You can sort of tell that from my tank front photo in the first page. What do you think?


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

I think you should not rush into changing your water parameters. Perhaps it was not due to your water or water change? Without knowing for sure why start adding peat extract or some similar additive? Other fish thriving? Have you had a history of new inhabitants dying mysteriously? How many fish are in the tank? You mentioned that it is heavily planted. What are you using for a light source? Wattage? Filtration? I get the impression that you are fairly new to the hobby? If so, resist the temptation to keep trying new things-stick to the basics. A product like Prime that removes chlorine and chloromine-that would be a basic thing. Adding peat extract/dark water that would IMO fall into the other category. If you are breeding GBRs, maybe... But for a community tank? Not really necessary.


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## Bugman (Jan 7, 2008)

Excellent advice.


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

MarkMc said:


> I think you should not rush into changing your water parameters. Perhaps it was not due to your water or water change? Without knowing for sure why start adding peat extract or some similar additive? Other fish thriving? Have you had a history of new inhabitants dying mysteriously? How many fish are in the tank? You mentioned that it is heavily planted. What are you using for a light source? Wattage? Filtration? I get the impression that you are fairly new to the hobby? If so, resist the temptation to keep trying new things-stick to the basics. A product like Prime that removes chlorine and chloromine-that would be a basic thing. Adding peat extract/dark water that would IMO fall into the other category. If you are breeding GBRs, maybe... But for a community tank? Not really necessary.


You can use peat instead of extract. I wouldn't call that force-changing parameters. While the hardness/PH would go down a little, the stuff has many other beneficial effects and makes the tank a more natural environment for GBR and cardinals.

I agree with you that it would be unwise to mess with the water before all other variables have been controled for; but if there is one truth about fish and water, then that GBR cannot deal with hard/alkaline water. They may survive, but they won't thrive. I keep Gold Rams in extremely soft (GH <3) acidic (6.2) water. If my PH goes up even a little (e.g. during a water change), the rams instantly lose a bit of their gorgeous color.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Aquarist_Fist said:


> You can use peat instead of extract. I wouldn't call that force-changing parameters. While the hardness/PH would go down a little, the stuff has many other beneficial effects and makes the tank a more natural environment for GBR and cardinals.
> 
> I agree with you that it would be unwise to mess with the water before all other variables have been controled for; but if there is one truth about fish and water, then that GBR cannot deal with hard/alkaline water. They may survive, but they won't thrive. I keep Gold Rams in extremely soft (GH <3) acidic (6.2) water. If my PH goes up even a little (e.g. during a water change), the rams instantly lose a bit of their gorgeous color.


Perhaps you're right, maybe there are benefits to adding peat/peat extract. I don't know. But how does water hardness get fixed by adding acids? IMO if you feel that the water is too hard and you feel you must change that wouldn't the solution be to remove the hardness? Rather than try to find some equilibrium of base and acid components that can swing from alkaline to acidic as water is changed/evaporates/organic compounds collect ect, ect, wouldn't it just be simpler to concentrate on pristine water conditions and animal husbandry? I don't disagree with you that Rams might not do well in hard water but adding extract to hard water IME won't make it soft water. Ph swings in and of themselves can be tolerated by Rams. My tank has a daily ph swing of 6.6 to 7.1 due to CO2 injection and it has no visible effect on my GBR's. They have spawned twice in the 2 months I've had them and are voracious eaters (they even bite my hand when I do plant trimming). I'm just advocating KISS to the poster: keep it simple sonny...why complicate things-plenty of time to complicate things down the road as you gain more knowledge and want to try more advanced things like CO2, breeding, RO ect


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## emoore3 (Oct 18, 2003)

I agree with Mark. If you are not trying to breed rams then don't adjust your water. Unless the rams are wild caught they can adapt to hard water. When I lived in San Jose I had a couple of pairs of rams that lived for 4 years. The water was very hard, about 25 dGH and 500 tds. Perfect for african cichlids but I kept angles, rams, cardinals, etc. 

Adding peat or blackwater extract is not going to soften the water. The only way to soften the water is mix it with RO or distilled water.


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