# Chocolate Gouramis



## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Anyone keeping these fish?


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

Yep!


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Oh come on..can you share some insight? What are they like? Do they swim around alot? Are they as hard to keep as what is written? Easy to feed?


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

They like extremely soft water and low ph. I keep mine in pure ro water with a big piece of driftwood covered in java moss. I don't check my ph very often but the last time I did it was under 6.0 

They are a small fish and do best with small foods. I mix up their menu with some of my own prepared food and freshly hatched bbs. They are not an active fish and spend most of their time slowly cruising around the moss. 

Not many people spawn them so if you get any they will probably be wilds. Perhaps that is why they have a reputation for being difficult to keep. Hard water with a softwater fish out of the wild is almost a sure death sentence. I think they do better in a species-only setup because they like to take their time feeding and might starve with more aggressive feeders in the tank. I've had mine for over a year and they're doing just fine. They are also mouth brooders and I'm pretty sure mine spawned last week. The male sure had a mouthful of something swishing around.

Hope this helps

Mark


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Excellent Mark! They sound perfect, thanks so much.They will be kept as the only fish, and I want a pair.I use straight RO as well. Wonder how they would do in shipping or if I can find them local.


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

Every fish I have was shipped in and probably every fish you see at the LFS was shipped too. There are a lot of misconceptions going around about the dangers/risks of having fish shipped. I ship fish Monday - Wednesday every week and seldom have any problems even if the package gets lost or delayed for a few days.

I've also read a lot of posts on different forums about how to acclimate fish when they are shipped in. In my opinion, some of the methods would kill any fish. The slow drip is what kills most fish that have been in transit, followed by putting the fish in water with a chemistry that would cause stress anyway, and then dosing them to death with meds. But that's just my opinion.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

True true! I have started using the sink or swim method myself lately.


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## milalic (Aug 25, 2005)

waterfaller1 said:


> True true! I have started using the sink or swim method myself lately.


sink or swim method?


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

That's it, no "conventional" acclimation. open the bag and put the fish in the tank! I have done this for years with _most_ saltwater fish. especially fish that are thrashing in the bag, best just to get them out. Here are some excerpts from CorysRus, this is all very interesting.

Quote "When you receive the box open it as soon as possible in a dim lit room. The fish have been in a enclosed dark area for all the time they have been traveling sudden light causes unneeded stress. Open the fish bags only when you are ready to immediately put them into your aquarium. DO NOT put any water from your aquariums into the bags or vice-versa! Avoid netting as much as possible. Gently pour off most of the water from the bag through a net. Then release the fish from the bag directly into the aquarium. Another good method uses a plastic container with sieve holes in the bottom (a smooth plastic spaghetti strainer with small holes works great). Gently scoop or release the fish into the container, drain the water and place the fish immediately into the aquarium. Large specimens can often be simply hand placed into the aquarium. If these methods are not applicable, place a large net over the top of a clean container with enough water to cover approximately a third of the bottom of the net. Open the bag and carefully pour some of the fish into the net and immediately place them directly into the aquarium. Try to avoid a net full of fish as they will ball up in the net, and the ones underneath can be damaged from compression and friction. Remember that water from the bag may react with the water from the aquarium, and could be very harmful. Never mix bag and aquarium water! That evening feed a very small meal and over the next few days slowly up the feed.
Sometimes during shipping, fish lie at the bottom of the bag and appear dead. “Playing opossum” is a common animal stress behavior. Carbon dioxide also acts to tranquilize the fish. Even if the fish look like they are mostly dead, put them into an aquarium as outlined above. Leave the aquarium lights off to further reduce stress, and leave them alone. You will be amazed how clean water and stress reduction help !

Like other animals, fish produce carbon dioxide as they breathe. When carbon dioxide is dissolved in water, an acid is formed, lowering the pH of the water just like in a carbonated beverage. Fish also produce ammonia, which can be very damaging. Ammonia is present in water as NH3 or as NH4+, or as a combination of these forms. The toxic form of ammonia is NH3. The proportion of NH3 versus NH4+ is dependent on pH. The lower the pH, the lower the amount of NH3, and the greater the proportion of the less damaging NH4+. In the wild, freshwater fish naturally experience wide changes in pH.

One of the reasons fish are able to be shipped long distances in closed bags is because the pH in the shipping water drops, making the ammonia non-toxic. The carbon dioxide acts as a tranquilizer. The moment the bag is opened, and exposed to the outside air, carbon dioxide escapes, the pH of the water immediately begins to rise, and ammonia becomes deadly. Fish tissue damage will then occur very quickly. NEVER add water from a shipping bag into your aquarium, as you do not want all that harmful ammonia in your aquarium. NEVER add water from your aquarium into the shipping bag. Acclimate the temperature by floating the bag in the aquarium water, and then immediately open the bag and release the fish into the aquarium, minimizing the introduction of the bag water, however, read further along before making that decision.


What About Temperature Acclimation? 

Temperature acclimation, in fishes, typically takes 10 days or more. That means that whether the temperature of the water a fish is increased slowly over a period of 20 minutes to 1 hour or is done almost instantly, the fish still requires several days to acclimate to the temperature change. It is also a fact that rapid temperature changes which occur in a fish’s environment are stressful. 

In a shipping bag all kinds of stressful changes occur. First, the temperature typically changes, and often, by more than just a couple of degrees. Secondly, the fishes excrete ammonia (NH3) and carbon dioxide (CO2) from their gills during respiration. Thirdly, the pH changes; typically it drops, and solid particles from feces can accumulate. The water in the shipping bags is polluted by the inhabitants.

Also, due to the fact that there will always be small amounts of dissolved and suspended organics in the bag water there will also be an increase in the bacterial count. Many, in not most, of these bacteria can be pathogenic (disease-causing). 

Corys "R" US uses Ship Right to relieve the physical stress the fishes suffer when netted prior to packing and to replace any damaged skin slime (which always happens when fishes are handled with nets) and remove ammonia from the water during shipping.

Given the conditions which typically occur in a shipping bag, even with proper treatment of the water as Corys "R" Us does, there will still be conditions in the bag at the time of receipt that requires getting the fishes out of the bag and into their receiving tanks as soon as possible. 

One should keep in mind that not floating the bag of water is not the entire story. One should get the fishes out of the bag’s water and into the aquarium environment in which the fishes will be maintained as quickly as possible. This means that dumping the contents of the bag into a bucket or other container and slowly adding water from the aquarium is not much better than simply floating the bags. Similarly, one should not adjust the pH in the bag to match the aquarium and one should not adjust the pH in the aquarium to match that of the bag.

It is, therefore, not logical to expose the fishes to the conditions inside the bag any longer than necessary. Floating a bag of fishes means that the water in the bag usually increases in temperature (especially if the fishes have been shipped during the winter months). A temperature increases of just 5ºC means that the un-ionized (toxic) ammonia level in the bag will increase by almost 34%! In saltwater that same temperature increase will lead to a nearly 40% increase in the toxic ammonia content.

Increasing the water temperature also increases the fishes’ metabolism. That means their oxygen consumption increases, their respiration rate increases and the amount of ammonia and carbon dioxide being released into the bag’s water increases.

In general, then, floating a bag of fishes simply means that the conditions inside the bag are made worse rather than better.

Other Considerations

If the water inside the bag isn’t the best, think about the “stuff” that might be contaminating the outside of the bag. Probably 50% of the boxes used in the aquarium trade are recycled. Few, if any, of these boxes are cleaned and disinfected prior to reuse. They often have water in them left over from the last shipment and sometimes there is even dirt and debris inside.

The actual bags themselves start out clean, but during the the bagging process they are set down on wet tables, laid out on the floor and handled by less than clean hands. In general, the outsides of the bags are dirty and should not be floated.

Lastly, plastic bags, even if they are not the new “breathable bags” allow for some exchange of oxygen and CO2 through the bag’s wall. This happens where the water inside comes into contact with the bag. Therefore even bags which are depleted of their original oxygen fill can sustain fishes for a period of time as long as the temperature is not too high. Once a fish bag is immersed in water the gas exchange is stopped. There, the negative effects of floating fish bags is even more pronounced when the oxygen fill has been depleted. The increasing water temperature increases the fishes’s needs for oxygen, while also decreasing the oxygen’s solubility in water. 

Overall, the effects of floating fish bags can be very stressful on the fishes. " end quote

You be the judge. It works for me.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I wouldn't do the sink or swim method.. That's just bad advice. Drip acclimation is the way to go. The TDS difference could hurt them.

It might work with salties because the tds are pretty similar..


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Most LFS don't even really acclimate, they might float..but that's usually it. When the bag is opened, the water in the bag becomes toxic. Best to get them in the tank IMO.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

waterfaller1 said:


> Most LFS don't even really acclimate, they might float..but that's usually it. When the bag is opened, the water in the bag becomes toxic. Best to get them in the tank IMO.


heh. Are you saying the LFS is correct and is great at taking care of fish?

Your points might be correct but we'll get around the whole issue and say that drip acclimation is best.


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## Mangala (Jul 23, 2006)

interesting.... when I get a fish home, the first thing I do is fill up a 5 gallon bucket about 3/4 full of water (dechlorinated, of course), stick in one of my tank's pieces of driftwood, cut open the fish bag and put the bag in the water, observe the fish swimming out (sometimes I'll tip them out, if they're being lazy. Plecos are usually lazy...). This is done in a quiet, dark area of my room. I leave the fish there for maybe half an hour to an hour, and then I will net the fish and put it in the tank. 

I've actually got a 15 gallon dark-sided bucket I use with a filter and heater for fish I fear will be particularly tricky, or might be unwell. They will stay for longer in the bucket (a quarantine bucket, I guess...) until I am certain they are well (few weeks to a month). Especially if I get any fish from a major chain store...


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

mistergreen said:


> I wouldn't do the sink or swim method.. That's just bad advice. Drip acclimation is the way to go. The TDS difference could hurt them.
> 
> It might work with salties because the tds are pretty similar..


Bad advice? I have to question how many fish you have shipped in and how often to make such a bold statement.


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## pvtschultz (Jun 17, 2008)

Most LFS's will also lose up to 50% of the fish that are shipped to them (I used to work for one). What you don't really see is the employee netting dead fish all day. I never buy a fish unless it have been at the LFS for at least 14 days.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

I also do not mess around with bagged organisms, into the tank they go.

I've had a bag of cherries arrive with ice cubes and threw them all right into the tank, no deaths.

To each their own.

-Andrew


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

pvtschultz said:


> Most LFS's will also lose up to 50% of the fish that are shipped to them (I used to work for one). What you don't really see is the employee netting dead fish all day. I never buy a fish unless it have been at the LFS for at least 14 days.


50% is awefully exagerated and the losses are not because they didn't use a slow drip method.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

*Talking about the same thing?*

There is a difference between 

1) going to the LFS, buying fish, and taking them home within an hour or two

2) receiving fish that have been in a bag for several days

Drip acclimation works well for 1), although netting them out of the bag and throwing them into the tank might work just as well, depending on the fish and variances between LFS water and tank water.

For 2) drip acclimation just seems like a bad idea.


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## oblongshrimp (Jul 26, 2006)

so whats your guy's feeling on shrimp? If they were packed in a breather bag then would there be any harm in drip acclimating? Because they are breather bags the CO2 shouldn't have built up resulting in non-toxic ammonia.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wow this thread certainly derailed..it's ok though, good discussion. I have to say my methods do change depending on the situation. I also worked at an LFS for years. We did acclimate, because we dipped every fish before placing them in the tanks. Was it good for some fish? No, they went belly up, and were fine when they came in. Fish handle the stress of being "handled" differently. If I get fw fish shipped in, and there is one or more dead in the bag, I am not going to slowly acclimate that/those fish. They come out immediately. For shrimp, and all inverts, I drip acclimate.


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

I'm not sure what the exact exchange rate is for the gasses. Shrimp are small and produce very little waste so I doubt the acclimation technique used would have much impact in most situations where the shipper used the Kordon bags. None of my suppliers use them. There are a lot of other factors to consider such as how long the animal has been in the bag, the temperature, and the amount of waste the animal has or can produce. If I feel the water might be polluted with waste I don't hesitate on getting the animals out and into a tank asap. 

On average, I'd say from the time I open a bag till the time the fish/shrimp or whatever are in the tank is less than 10 seconds. I'm also more prone to do this with sensitive species like Altums and Discus. I started doing this over 12 years ago when I had a bag of healthy looking Paracyprichromis turn belly up and die within a few minutes of opening the bag. I couldn't believe how fast the ammonia burns developed. The fish didn't have a single blemish on them when the bag was closed but 2 minutes after opening the bag the fish were more than half covered with whitish blotches where the ammonia had already killed the tissue. That was also the last time I answered the phone when I had fish to unpack.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

rmc said:


> They are also mouth brooders and I'm pretty sure mine spawned last week. The male sure had a mouthful of something swishing around.
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Mark


 I was reading and it said the male and female spawn at the bottom, but it is the _female_
that collects and holds the eggs. It went on to say that to be certain your fish is in top condition, since she will hold the eggs for fourteen days and refuse to eat.


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

just got 2 pairs recently, and keep them in pure RO with aquasoil. i feed mine live tubiflex, and they love it. i also have a pair of betta chanoides with them and since both like very acidic, soft water they are a good match. both species are also very timid and docile feeders, thats probably part of the reason most have difficulty keeping them in community tanks along with the soft water requirements, they just get out competed at feeding time. my males do spar and will chase each other around the tank, but the females dont bother anything. i hope they eventually breed, the chanoides also.

they are not very easy to find in LFS, mainly because of the massive die offs they experience (most LFS dont have specialized soft water tanks). its a money loser to them to bring them in. you will probably need to special order them online.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Hi, yes I have already located some. Where do you get live tubifix? Do you use peat as well in their water, or anything like almond leaves?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

When receiving shipped fish I add an ammonia-detoxing dose of Prime to my acclimation bucket, and then pour bagged fish into the bucket. Then I drip-acclimate to my QT tank. I usually net the fish into my QT tank from there 3-6 hours later. If possible, I'll try and match my QT tank parameters to the water parameters of the shipper, if I know them. IME adding the Prime really does help. I'd rather adjust as many parameters as slowly as possible, and detoxing the water the fish arrive in buys some time to do this.

Which reminds me- rmc, I totally forgot to ask your water paramters for those plecos, I'm PM'ing you now...

Carole, are you going to try and breed them?


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## milalic (Aug 25, 2005)

sorry to change the course of the thread. It seems very interesting to me the comparison between the case when you buy fish from the lsf and when you get them after a few days in the bag.


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## flanders (May 3, 2008)

waterfaller1 said:


> Like other animals, fish produce carbon dioxide as they breathe. When carbon dioxide is dissolved in water, an acid is formed, lowering the pH of the water just like in a carbonated beverage. Fish also produce ammonia, which can be very damaging. Ammonia is present in water as NH3 or as NH4+, or as a combination of these forms. The toxic form of ammonia is NH3. The proportion of NH3 versus NH4+ is dependent on pH. The lower the pH, the lower the amount of NH3, and the greater the proportion of the less damaging NH4+. In the wild, freshwater fish naturally experience wide changes in pH.


This is cool. Are there any docs about the toxicity of NH3 vs. NH4 in fish? This got me looking up an old chemistry text book about pH and ammonia. Interestingly, it states that 99% of ammonia at pH 7.0 is in the NH4+ form.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> When receiving shipped fish I add an ammonia-detoxing dose of Prime to my acclimation bucket, and then pour bagged fish into the bucket. Then I drip-acclimate to my QT tank. I usually net the fish into my QT tank from there 3-6 hours later. If possible, I'll try and match my QT tank parameters to the water parameters of the shipper, if I know them. IME adding the Prime really does help. I'd rather adjust as many parameters as slowly as possible, and detoxing the water the fish arrive in buys some time to do this.
> 
> Which reminds me- rmc, I totally forgot to ask your water paramters for those plecos, I'm PM'ing you now...
> 
> Carole, are you going to try and breed them?


Good stuff there LL. As to the question of breeding them, well that will be up to them. Of course I could add a few rose petals to their water and put on some Barry White.



milalic said:


> sorry to change the course of the thread. It seems very interesting to me the comparison between the case when you buy fish from the lsf and when you get them after a few days in the bag.


There is no comparison really,it's two different things.


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

Carole, no i dont use peat or leaves. tank is just AS I with pure RO water. no co2 or ferts. mine only eat live food (spoiled brats), but it does their bodies good. they are now at least twice the size and weight of their former tank mates back at the LFS. and its only been a few weeks. my local lfs carries live tubiflex, and i like it much better than black worms or brine shrimp. a 2" ball of them will last me 2-3 weeks, and all i do is change the water daily and run an airstone (small 1 quart container).


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

Hey Carole,

I am an avid Chocolate Gourami collector. I keep:
Chocolate Gouramis - Sphaerichthys osphromenoides 
Valiant Chocolate Gouramis - Sphaerichthys Vaillanti
Burmese Chocolate Gouramis - Parasphaerichthys Ocellatus
Sharpnose Chocolate Gouramis - Sphaerichthys Acrostoma
Licorice Gouramis - Parosphromenus Deissneri

They all are kept in soft water but their PH's range from upper 5's to 7.2. all of them can be kept in that range. Acclimation is they're key... Once they are acclimated they fairly hardy. Also, the more plants the better. Mine are all kept with apistos and in crazy community tanks. They go about their business and only are concerned with each other, looking for food, and what you're doing. 

It's best to keep them in a small group. They are very shy if they don't think their numbers are good enough. Pairs or individuals can sometimes bully others. 

mine eat prepared food w/ an occasional frozen treat.


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

ooo, would love to get my hands on some valiants.. the red really stands out. my chocolates are very shy compared to the other dwarf gouramis i keep. i have 2 pairs in a 10g, along with a pair of betta chanoides. the chocos actually act as the dither fish, and make the bettas comfortable enough to come out more often. with the RO and AS, ph ~ 6.2-6.5 and my TDS hovers around 140-150 ppm (one of the rocks must be leaching a little, which is good in my case). cheapo e-bay RO-DI system i have puts out water with a TDS of 14, which is good enough for my use.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

So cool, I did not know there were so many types. Or what type I will be getting. Guess I should find out. Every article I have read says peat[extract] is important. I wonder why? I too have Amazonia 1, use straight RO. I have the tank down to 75 from 78 using a small fan. I have read they can tolerate the warmer temp..so no big deal there. I have a nice Grindal worm culture going, and just bought another large one I should be able to make into three. That will give me a lot of live food for all of my fish. In another tank I just added some new fish last week. 5 coral red pencilfish, and 6 Sumatran blue neon gobies. They are both awesome in their own way. Those coral reds are brilliantly colored red. They rival some of the nicest saltwater fish in color. I love the fish that are different, harder to get. They are really pretty and unique. I could see myself wanting to set up more tanks, but someone would suffer, and it wouldn't be right. Thanks guys, for all of your insight and experience.:thumbsup:


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Oh yeah, the million dollar question is{I think I know the answer} will they eat shrimp?


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

The place I am getting them lists them as Sphaerichtys Vaillanti. I have asked to make sure that's what he's getting.


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

Keep a lid on their tank for a while after you get them. They tend to be jumpers at first but once they settle in you shouldn't have any problems.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

:thumbsup: Thank you, will do.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

waterfaller1 said:


> So cool, I did not know there were so many types. Or what type I will be getting. Guess I should find out. Every article I have read says peat[extract] is important. I wonder why? I too have Amazonia 1, use straight RO. I have the tank down to 75 from 78 using a small fan. I have read they can tolerate the warmer temp..so no big deal there. I have a nice Grindal worm culture going, and just bought another large one I should be able to make into three. That will give me a lot of live food for all of my fish. In another tank I just added some new fish last week. 5 coral red pencilfish, and 6 Sumatran blue neon gobies. They are both awesome in their own way. Those coral reds are brilliantly colored red. They rival some of the nicest saltwater fish in color. I love the fish that are different, harder to get. They are really pretty and unique. I could see myself wanting to set up more tanks, but someone would suffer, and it wouldn't be right. Thanks guys, for all of your insight and experience.:thumbsup:


Humic acids (peat, etc) not only lower pH, but they are especially good at chelating toxic heavy metals and therefore make aquarium water safer for blackwater fish.


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

I don't use peat. I want to see my fish. These guys can spot shrimplets a mile away, but they are perfectly fine with full sized shrimp.


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

Peat doesn't affect the clarity of the water, it only stains it which I actually don't mind at all. You can always use carbon to remove some of the tint if it bothers you.


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## MedRed (May 20, 2008)

peat mutes the colors of the fish. My opinion but seeing cardinals in water with and without peat... i won't do repeat my peat endeavors. I only did because a book i once read said lemon tetras and cardinals look great in peat water. Bull!


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

My pair should arrive today! Along with some unidentified fan shrimps, and some luminous reds.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wow! Another totally awesome order from Frank's Aquarium. When I can, I will get pics. Today we will let them rest.:icon_bigg


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

I always knew I loved chocolate...these guys are sweet!


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

can you get pics now?


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

No, lights are out for the day. I will try, but they will look much better once they are in the new tank. The pc's on that finnex make for a crummy yellow pic. Or actually, the picture_ taker_ doesn't know how to adjust her camera.:hihi:


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

rmc said:


> Keep a lid on their tank for a while after you get them. They tend to be jumpers at first but once they settle in you shouldn't have any problems.





waterfaller1 said:


> .


Jinxed myself..:icon_cry: This fish in the pic was missing this morning. Found him inside the stand on the shelf. I bought some ceiling diffusor{eggcrate},and some tulle{bridal veil}. I am going to make a lid. I will take some pics and do a thread, in case others want to cover their tank. This is the best way I know to keep jumpers in, short of a glass or acrylic lid. Such a bummer..:icon_sad:
I said I would , but did not heed your good advice.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

So sorry. He was a beautiful fish!!


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## Chrisinator (Jun 5, 2008)

Aww. That sucks. Are you gotta try Chocolate Gouramies again?


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Yes, Frank has another for me. Thanks.


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## Chrisinator (Jun 5, 2008)

That's cool! I've always wanted to try Choc. Gouramis too!


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

waterfaller1 said:


> Jinxed myself..:icon_cry: This fish in the pic was missing this morning. Found him inside the stand on the shelf. I bought some ceiling diffusor{eggcrate},and some tulle{bridal veil}. I am going to make a lid. I will take some pics and do a thread, in case others want to cover their tank. This is the best way I know to keep jumpers in, short of a glass or acrylic lid. Such a bummer..:icon_sad:
> I said I would , but did not heed your good advice.



as promised

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/74231-no-jump-fish-lid.html


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

MedRed said:


> Hey Carole,
> 
> I am an avid Chocolate Gourami collector. I keep:
> 
> ...


Woot..just got a pair of these!! I will pm you to ask if I got ripped off..:redface:


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

pvtschultz said:


> Most LFS's will also lose up to 50% of the fish that are shipped to them (I used to work for one). What you don't really see is the employee netting dead fish all day. I never buy a fish unless it have been at the LFS for at least 14 days.


 the lfs I work at does not even have 10 percent losses... I dont know how it is even possible to go about killing half of all fish shipped in!


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Valiant Chocolate Gouramis - Sphaerichthys Vaillanti
They arrive today!!:icon_mrgr


Chrisinator said:


> Aww. That sucks. Are you gotta try Chocolate Gouramies again?


I did get two more, and they are doing well as a threesome. The pair of chocolate valliants will go into a different tank.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

I think I may have witnessed these two spawning the other morning. Have any of you seen it? They were just above the bottom, nose to tail, spinning in circles.

Valiant chocolate gouramis
female left/male on right


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

shouldn't they've built a bubble nest if they were spawning?

they are beautiful. Frank always have them 'out of stock'... Seems like they're popular.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

They are mouth brooders I thought? Thank you.


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## flanders (May 3, 2008)

Mine have spawned several times now. They do that circle dance up and down the water column, then the female gathers all the eggs in her mouth. From here, I haven't been successful. The female carries the eggs for around 7-10 days, but I haven't seen any fry yet. These guys are in a 55 gal community, so unless they are real good parents the little ones probably get eaten up pretty quickly.

Tryin' to convince the wife to let me have another tank, but for now I'll just have to watch the cool behavior.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

mistergreen said:


> Frank always have them 'out of stock'... Seems like they're popular.


Whenever you want something from Frank just ask on his little forum.
Flanders, that's a shame. These two have spawned successfully before, according to the person I bought them from. Like yours though, mine are in with a mixed bag that might eat the babies. But I thought that was the whole idea behind the mouth brooding? Also, I thought it was the male that did all the work of keeping the babies in his mouth?


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## flanders (May 3, 2008)

waterfaller1 said:


> Whenever you want something from Frank just ask on his little forum.
> Flanders, that's a shame. These two have spawned successfully before, according to the person I bought them from. Like yours though, mine are in with a mixed bag that might eat the babies. But I thought that was the whole idea behind the mouth brooding? Also, I thought it was the male that did all the work of keeping the babies in his mouth?



You know, I had read that as well, but..... I also saw a site the other day that said it was the female. I'll find the link a little later. Mine are Sphaerichthys osphromenoides though, so perhaps there could be some differences?

Mouth brooding-These guys mouths are so small that I'd imagine the fry have to be tiny when they are released. No?


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

mine have done the spawning dance as well, but same result, nothing.... tank only has 2 pairs of chocos, a pair of betta chanoides and 4 small ruby rasboras as dither fish. its very heavily planted so the fry would have some chance, but nada. at least they bred for me. mine are not the valintins, but your regular chocolate gourami.


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## flanders (May 3, 2008)

dhavoc said:


> mine have done the spawning dance as well, but same result, nothing.... tank only has 2 pairs of chocos, a pair of betta chanoides and 4 small ruby rasboras as dither fish. its very heavily planted so the fry would have some chance, but nada. at least they bred for me. mine are not the valintins, but your regular chocolate gourami.


Does your female's mouth get really big, and not eat for awhile?


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

yes it does, but when and if the eggs hatch is unknown, they tend to hide most of the time and only come out to display or defend territory (between the 2 pairs). they could very well be hatching and then being eaten by the chanoides and the other pair of chocolates. i only feed live food, so any small moving object is a potential meal in their eyes.


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