# potassium deficiency



## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Hello!

I need some help.

I have a heavily planted tank with few fishes, the tank have dirt substrate.

After some reading on the internet i think my Cardamine Lyrata showing servere signs of potassium deficiency. 

The tank have been running for a few weeks and the plant growth have been explosive. All the plants are fast growers and a couple of them take most of their nutrient from the water collum.

I have not been using any ferts beacuse this is a dirt tank, but I do have the Tropica Spesialised Fertilizer in hand.

My question is: Should i start using this fertilizer? And should i just use te recommended dosage? I dont want any algae outbreak, but i have also read that someone means that fers not causing algae.

I need some suggestions please.

Here is a link that showe 10 days of growth, the growth have now slowed down.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=598418&highlight=


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Can you take close up photos of the older leaves on the plants you think have potassium deficiency? I cannot see much from so far away in the photos you posted.


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

On the previous pictures the plant is ok, here is some closeups from today
Thanks for helping


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## JeffHerr (Mar 12, 2010)

Oh yeah. Looks like my plants when I'm not dosing enough K...


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

You can dose K with K2SO4.

Michel.


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## sleepswithdafishez (May 23, 2013)

I had this happen to my Cardamine ,too.I suspected melting or chlorosis ,but upped the K dosing ,just to make sure.Now it's growing fine.

"My question is: Should i start using this fertilizer? And should i just use te recommended dosage? I dont want any algae outbreak, but i have also read that someone means that fers not causing algae."



This can answer many of your questions http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=66863&


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

1) Can you take a photo of the newest leaves of the Cardamine?

2) Do you keep plecos, or nerite snails?

3) Is this happening on any other plant in the tank (if so please post a photo).

4) How long did it take these holes to appear? Days? Weeks?


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Thanks for your answers.

I do have some "KALII NITRAS" Kalium Nitrat that i have bought from the drugstore, i was going to use it on my old reeftank. I never used it, but i think it is powder.

Can i use this ? How mutch? And how do i add this to the tank? 

The tank is 10 gallon


Jnad



Zapins said:


> 1) Can you take a photo of the newest leaves of the Cardamine?
> I will try take some more pictures tomorrow
> 2) Do you keep plecos, or nerite snails?
> No
> ...


I would say days


At the same time the problems with the Cardamine Lyrata started, some algae started appearing on the glass and some of the plant leaves on other plants in the tank.


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Now the same symymptoms also started to show on the Hygrophila Difformis

Is the result of starting a tank with only easy very fast growing plants that the tank will run out of ferts?

Jnad


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Kalium is another word for potassium, so Kalium nitrate is potassium nitrate. Yes, you can use it to dose potassium. The problem with commercial liquid fertilizers, like the Tropica one you mentioned, is that they are just water, with a tiny bit of fertilizer mixed in. So, you are buying water when you buy them. It is much more economical, and equally good for the plants to buy the cheap chemicals that are used to make the commercial liquid fertilizers. But, if you already have the Tropica fertilizer, you might as well use it.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Can you post a photo of the Hygro? Those plants usually develop potassium deficiency first and are very easy to tell if it is potassium deficiency.

Why would KNO3 be used for a reef tank?


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Hoppy said:


> Kalium is another word for potassium, so Kalium nitrate is potassium nitrate. Yes, you can use it to dose potassium. The problem with commercial liquid fertilizers, like the Tropica one you mentioned, is that they are just water, with a tiny bit of fertilizer mixed in. So, you are buying water when you buy them. It is much more economical, and equally good for the plants to buy the cheap chemicals that are used to make the commercial liquid fertilizers. But, if you already have the Tropica fertilizer, you might as well use it.


Thanks.

I will use the Tropica product until it is empty, i try to find out where to by those cheap powder chemicals. I live in Norway, not shure where to get those chemicals, maybe i ask at the drugstore.

Jnad



Zapins said:


> Can you post a photo of the Hygro? Those plants usually develop potassium deficiency first and are very easy to tell if it is potassium deficiency.
> 
> Why would KNO3 be used for a reef tank?


At a time my corals seemed to suffer and i couldn`t find out why, i got some idea that my tank did not have enough nitrate but i never got to use it. I am not into reefing anymore, i swapped in to the planted tank hobby with a thought of it beeing easyer than reefkeeping. But i got suprised this seem to me at least as complicated 

I am posting those pictures in a minute

jnad


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## Saltydog33 (Sep 12, 2013)

Your plants look just like what mine are doing i am not dosing potassium either going to start dosing it this week. Also i have hygro growing and it definitely was the first to show these symptoms mine start with little black dots hope it works out for you.


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

First picture is the top of the Hygro with fresh ok leaves.
Second picture is bottom of Hygro with damage leaves.
Third picture is middle of Hygro with damaged leaves in front of shrimp.
Last picture is my damaged Cardamine today, i would say that 90% of the plant is lost. I might cut away those 90% today


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Do not trim the cardamine just yet. 

Try dosing with potassium. You can use K2SO4 or another source of potassium. Wait for the plant to grow out a bit more with healthy growth before you trim it back. I'd add at least 20-30 ppm of potassium in order to be sure there is enough in the tank, then later on you can add 10 ppm potassium 3x a week to ensure it is present. If it is potassium deficiency then the plant should put out a decent bit of new growth and no more holes will appear within about a week. You need the old growth in place to be able to compare where the deficiency stopped.

The damaged tissue is not useless to the plant, it has a lot of nutrients that the new leaves can still use and it will provide the new growth with sugars which will help it recover faster.


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Zapins said:


> Do not trim the cardamine just yet.
> 
> Try dosing with potassium. You can use K2SO4 or another source of potassium. Wait for the plant to grow out a bit more with healthy growth before you trim it back. I'd add at least 20-30 ppm of potassium in order to be sure there is enough in the tank, then later on you can add 10 ppm potassium 3x a week to ensure it is present. If it is potassium deficiency then the plant should put out a decent bit of new growth and no more holes will appear within about a week. You need the old growth in place to be able to compare where the deficiency stopped.
> 
> The damaged tissue is not useless to the plant, it has a lot of nutrients that the new leaves can still use and it will provide the new growth with sugars which will help it recover faster.


Hmmm, i was a little bit fast, i have already cut down the Cardamine to only fresh leaves left

I do have this box with potassium nitrate and a measuringspoon (1/4 tsp)

Is it possible to use this measuringspoon to add 10ppm? I dont know how mutch 10, 20 or 30 ppm is?

Thanks for helping

Jnad


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Yes you can use teaspoons to measure out KNO3 though it isn't the most accurate way. Also be sure the spoons are leveled off or you will add more than you think. Use http://calc.petalphile.com/ to calculate the amount for your tank.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

If you find trouble getting small amounts of dry ferts, there may be ways around the problem. 
I live in an area where there are lots of farm supply stores. These stores often have broken bags of various ferts. If I approach the right person, I often find they will give me a handfull of a broken bag which might be plenty for my use. The whole bag might be way, way too much and too expensive but the handful they give me might just be spilled and swept out otherwise. 
Any farm supply near you?


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Zapins said:


> Yes you can use teaspoons to measure out KNO3 though it isn't the most accurate way. Also be sure the spoons are leveled off or you will add more than you think. Use http://calc.petalphile.com/ to calculate the amount for your tank.


Thanks for the fert calculator. I tried punch in my tank and dosage of 1/8 tsp once a week, Even this small dosage would give me high values. My tank is 30 liter, but only containing 20 liters of water. I guess i should use 20 liters in the calculator? 

And i must get a smaller measuring spoon, Even a 1/4 tsp is way to big 

Thanks for helping me out 

Jnad


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

PlantedRich said:


> If you find trouble getting small amounts of dry ferts, there may be ways around the problem.
> I live in an area where there are lots of farm supply stores. These stores often have broken bags of various ferts. If I approach the right person, I often find they will give me a handfull of a broken bag which might be plenty for my use. The whole bag might be way, way too much and too expensive but the handful they give me might just be spilled and swept out otherwise.
> Any farm supply near you?


Yes there is a farm supply near by, thanks for your tip, i certenly check that out.

Jnad


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Hello!

I still have problems with my Cardamine Lyrata, i also have this plant in another tank that start showing the same symptoms.

Both have one another thing in common, both tanks have the plant Egeria Densa that grows like weed and take mutch of it's nutrients from the watercolumn.

Could this Egeria Densa outcompete the Cardamine Lyrata?? Just a long shot, but any opinions would be appriciated.

Jnad


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Jnad,

Please tell us a little about your water, is it 'hard' from wells with lots of calcium and magnesium or is it 'soft' water from mountain reservoirs fed by snow melt streams?

The reason I ask is it looks a lot like a problem I was having due to my very soft water (<1.0 dKH and <2.0 dGH) here in Seattle. My leaves were experiencing necrosis (dead areas) with the downward 'cupping' of the leaf edges and sometimes the leaf tips were hooking downward as well. The symptoms helped me to determine my problem was low calcium and magnesium.


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Hello!

It is some time since i measured my tap water, but last time i did the results was: KH = 1,6 and the GH = 4

Another aquarist told me that our tap water is perfect for Discus, so i suppose it is on the sof side.

Jnad


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

*Do you have plecos in this tank and the other tank with the same damage?*

A soil based tank is not as likely to show nutrient deficiencies as a non-soil based tank. The leaves look quite similar to mechanical damage.

If you are adding 1/8 or 1/4 tsp of KNO3 a week then it is not K deficiency.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Jnad,

Assuming that the damage to the leaves is not due to inhabitants such as snails or fish such as plecostomus as suggested by Zapins then I suspect nutrient deficiency. Based upon the downturned cupping of the older Cardamine lyrata leaves my first suspicion is a magnesium deficiency this would also account for the puckering and interveinal necrosis on the older leaves.


> 1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency


The other alternative based upon observation is a possible calcium deficiency. Looking at the leaf tips of the Hygrophila difformis, some of them are showing 'hooking' (sharp downward bending at tip) which is a typical symptom of a calcium deficiency.


> Downward curl of leaf tips (hooking) occurs near terminal bud....calcium deficiency


With your very soft water it is possible that you have a deficiency of both nutrients as I did. I found that adding sufficient Mg to get my ppm up to 8 ppm and my Ca up to 27 ppm resolved my issues. I used Epsom Salt (MgSO4*7H2O) and Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) as my sources but Calcium sulfate my be more easily available in Norway.

FYI, my Dad was born just south of Oslo.

-Roy


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## Ghia (May 1, 2014)

Jnad : I can safely recommend buying dry ferts from haack.se
Prices are okay and shipping is reasonable. No problem getting it from Sweden to Norway, at least I haven't had any.


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Hello!

Thanks for you taking time to posting.

Zapins: I dont have plecos in any of my tanks.

Seattle Aquarist: If the problem is calsium or Magnesium deficiency will E.I dosing help solving the problem? I am considering to by the nessesary products to start that regime.

Ghia: I have looked at their website after your suggestion, i will definatly consider to order from Sweden.

To all of you: Do lightning have an impact on nutrient deficiency? I have changed the lightning to 10w led on both tanks and the Cardamine Lyrata in my 10 gallon cube actually seem to grow some fresh leaves now. The previous light i used on this tank was a 18W PL tube that looked wery bright, the led is more on the low light side i think. Could high light be the cause of the Cardamine Lyrata starting to show nutrient deficiency??

Jnad


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Jnad said:


> Seattle Aquarist: If the problem is calsium or Magnesium deficiency will E.I dosing help solving the problem? I am considering to by the nessesary products to start that regime.


While your water is on the soft side. This problem isn't calcium deficiency. Calcium deficiency is very rare and only shows up in the newest leaves. No older leaves would be affected. Magnesium deficiency shows up in older leaves only, but generally shows up as dark green veins and pale tissue between them. You cannot have both deficiencies at the same time, only 1 deficiency is possible at a time. 

I personally don't think the plant photos you have posted are necessarily indicative of a nutrient deficiency. The symptoms do not match deficiencies very closely and the other plants in the tank do not show one consistent set of symptoms. In a deficiency state you almost always see several species of plants acting in a similar way. When one species shows one symptom and the rest are not showing the same symptom then the cause is usually damage or a chemical burn. On top of that when you have a soil substrate you are almost guaranteed that your plants won't develop deficiencies.

*Are the plants still showing the same symptoms since you first posted this thread? Better, worse, or the same?

What fertilizers are you adding, how much of each and what soil substrate do you have?*



Jnad said:


> To all of you: Do lightning have an impact on nutrient deficiency? I have changed the lightning to 10w led on both tanks and the Cardamine Lyrata in my 10 gallon cube actually seem to grow some fresh leaves now. The previous light i used on this tank was a 18W PL tube that looked wery bright, the led is more on the low light side i think. Could high light be the cause of the Cardamine Lyrata starting to show nutrient deficiency??


Higher light causes plants to grow faster and require more nutrients. An extrmely bright light can contribute slightly to plants developing deficiencies faster, but not by very much unless you are also dosing CO2. High light with no CO2 causes plants to grow as fast as the CO2 supplied. High light with high CO2 then your plants will grow fast and run out of some other nutrient if you don't dose enough. That said, you aren't using an excessively high light so I wouldn't worry about this too much as the cause.


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Hello!

What i think seems very strange is that i have this plant (Cardamine Lyrata) in two tanks and both have the same symptoms. Tank number 1 that started this thread have a soil substrate containing 30% cow dung! i have used this soil in several setups, all with great results, except for this tank

Tank number 2 dont have any soil, just cat litter. This is the tank:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=598442&highlight=

Both tanks started great with massive growth and suddenly after a while the Cardamine Lyrate started to look bad.

It is difficult to be shure beacuse i did cut the Cardamine Lyrate down in tank number 1, but i do think it might seem to look a bit healthier now.

At first i did not use any fertilizer, but after the problem started i have used the Tropica Spesialized fertilizer.

I am starting to think two reasons could be the source of my problem: Simply the Cardamine Lyrata just is a type of plant that dont like the tap water where i live. Or it is the Egeria Densa that outcompete or chemicaly burn the Cardamine Lyrata. On Tropica.dk the description of the Egeria Densa says it Securitas antibiotika to the water:
http://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Egeriadensa(058BDT)/4506

Maybe the Cardamine Lyrata is allergic to the Egeria Densa

Jnad


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Sounds more like a CO2 issue, the E densa will easily remove all the CO2 at lower light levels than any other plant you have. 

Hydrilla does the same thing. They are very aggressive weeds for this reason. 
They quickly take up all the available free CO2 before the other plants can even start photosynthesizing. 

If you trim and or remove the E densa, then the other plant should do fine.
Or add more CO2.

Which concurs with Zapin's comments. Not a fert issue, it's a CO2 issue.


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Hello!

Thanks

I will remove the Egeria Densa today, i will uppdate this thread of the results, might be of interest for other forum users.

Jnad


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Hello!

The Egeria Densa is now removed, and i was in for a little suprise, after removing the Egeria Densa i really saw what weed it is, in one of the tanks it probably was 90% of the plant mass.

Jnad


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Interesting thread I think I had a similar problem with limnophila sessiflora which grows like a weed. I did trim it a lot and now I keep less stems of this plant.

Michel.


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Here is a late uppdate.

I added a diy CO2 to the tank, the plant growth exploded, the plant with defieccensy recovered. Problem was probably to mutch light and to little CO2 .

Bump: Here is a late uppdate.

I added a diy CO2 to the tank, the plant growth exploded, the plant with defieccensy recovered. Problem was probably to mutch light and to little CO2 .

I am starting to think it is all about light and CO2


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