# Iwasaki 175W 14K Metal Halide - Revised experience



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

I replaced the 3x96W AHSupply PC lamp/reflectors over my 90 gallon (effectively 80 gallon w/in-tank sump) with the new Iwasaki 175W MH driven by an IceCap electronic ballast. I've suspected for some time that the PC lamps were not putting out much in the way of PAR. After the initial two week burn in, there is definitely a much better response from the plants. 

The lamp is relatively new and expensive because it is putting out more PAR than many 250W MH lamps, per Sanjay's analysis:

Welcome to the Reef Lighting Page

It starts out very blue the first two weeks, then eventually whitens up to something closer to 10K. But it has a nice big spike in the 450nm range that creates the PAR. It makes for a darker -appearing- tank and muted reds but I think it's a winner.

EDIT: See update HERE.


----------



## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

I dont see anything regarding HQI.

I fell in love with my MH when I installed it. Makes me want to sell all of my PC fixtures....just waiting for that new LED fixture thingy that Hoppy linked to long ago...sorry cant find it. Plus the added cost of sunscreen will put me over budget.


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

Solaris LED?

The Iwasaki I bought isn't available in HQI (yet?).

I'm done with PC, and apparently so are most of the reefers. Those cutting edgers...


----------



## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

TWood said:


> Solaris LED?
> 
> The Iwasaki I bought isn't available in HQI (yet?).
> 
> I'm done with PC, and apparently so are most of the reefers. Those cutting edgers...


I agree but see the flock going towards T5. I debated T5 vs MH and the amount of bulbs to replace is what sold me.

I try to refer to reefkeepers as much as possible. I also feel they are cutting edge and any potential problems appear to be magnified with them....have a few particular topics in my head...

Yes thats the LED fixture. I would replace my PC with that when the price is right. More MH would heat my fishroom up too much.


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

Brilliant said:


> I agree but see the flock going towards T5. I debated T5 vs MH and the amount of bulbs to replace is what sold me.


Same here, plus mine is a DIY hood so all those endcaps to be installed/wired in a way I could move the lamps when I needed to do maintenance turned my decision to MH. I did have to modify the hood to raise it off the water though, but now I can look down into the water which I'd never been able to do with the PC reflectors in the way.


----------



## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Oh yah (speaking of endcaps) that reminds me...reading that thread about the fire caused by overdriving T5s really didnt sit well with me...


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I love MH's they rock.

The E ballast are nice, no noise, instant start etc higher efficacy.

Great colors etc.

Too bad they do not make tiny ones under 70 w

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

Heh, TBarr you're the one who says PC lamps can be run until they burn out. Which is partly why I kept these crappy lights for so long. 

Although, I don't think the Blueline 8800K lamps I tried from Champion Lighting -ever- put out much PAR. By the end I was trying a mix of 5000K, 6700K and 8800K, all lame.

AHSupply used to sell the real Panasonic brand lamps, but now sell some no-name knock-off. And they won't provide a spectral chart so there's no way to know what you are getting. Time for Kim to switch to T5, IMO.


----------



## Aquamanx (Sep 28, 2006)

You must really be into this hobby to drop that much money on lighting... That is a Crazy amount of money to spend on lighting! All of you who spend this much money on these types of setups must have money to burn... There's no "Budgeting" going on there! LOL! I just can't see spending that much money on lighting for ANYTHING! I myslef could use the money in better ways to better my own life... Not some Corals... LOL! I can understand the Passion some people have for the hobby. I just can't see how people will be willing to spend this much money on lights for their tanks! Unless you are growing Coral to sell them as a profit that would help you pay off the amount you just dropped on lighting... that's a whole different thing though!

If I had the "Extra money" then I might think about it... But, that's prolly as far as I'd go, is to think about it... LOL!

Also, I must not be "into the hobby" as much as the people that would spend that much money on it...

Steve X.


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

Aquamanx said:


> I just can't see how people will be willing to spend this much money on lights for their tanks!


Pathetic isn't it? :icon_roll 

The shame of it is that the PC setup cost just as much, and didn't work.

I decided a long time ago to keep just one 'show' tank of what I consider 'medium' size - a 90 gallon. So at least there aren't a dozen more aquatic cash magnets sitting around here.  

When I see people starting up the 'big' tanks, all I think of is kaching! $$$$$$$$


----------



## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

TWood, I'm correct in assuming you replaced _three_ PCs (total of 288 watts) with _one_ of these 175 watt MH?

And you're actually getting the same, or more usable light with less wattage?

Won't that cut down on electrical usage for some savings there?

When you have time, perhaps you could show us a pic of the set up?


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

RoseHawke said:


> TWood, I'm correct in assuming you replaced _three_ PCs (total of 288 watts) with _one_ of these 175 watt MH?
> 
> And you're actually getting the same, or more usable light with less wattage?
> 
> ...


Yes

Yes

Yes

Before:










After:










The tank -looks- darker under the MH but the plants are actually doing much better, there'd been a major prune and replanting between those photos.

I made the bump in the hood big enough to accomodate a second MH if needed.

EDIT: And BTW, the tank is actually running -cooler- with the MH than with the PC.


----------



## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Whoa! Man! That is _really _nice :thumbsup: ! Thanks for the pics!


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

Thanks.

Here it is with the hood up:


----------



## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> I love MH's they rock.
> 
> Too bad they do not make tiny ones under 70 w


I dont know if they do sell tiny spotlight-like MH in USA, but checking out osram homepage (OSRAM - Home) I can find those as small as 35W (powerball series) which has output equal to 200+ W of halogen (3200lm). So far they only make these in daylight full spectrum spec (around 5400K). They are single edged and look like halogen on steroids. 

I actully started to notice these newer generation of small MHs in counters where they add sparkle to jewelries esp diamonds (halogen will make diamond appear yellowish, unlike much whiter MH).

I think it would be great to have one over a small open top tank, on downlight fixture or table lamp style. The compact size means much advantages than large sized fluoroscent (T5, PC).


----------



## jokerjp (Nov 16, 2005)

I have two issues when it comes to MH. 

#1 With the limited sizes available it's tough to put MH over many tanks. Most tanks > 40 gallons have a center brace, which creates an annoying shadow that I personally cannot handle. I could go to two lights, but that is cost prohibitive.

#2 With a single of light the light cycle is less flexible. For instance with my current 3x96w AHS kit I run 2 banks for 9 hours and the 3rd bank for 4 hours. 
I personally feel this "burst" is very benifitial in growing plants.

I love the look of MH on my marine tank! I wouldn't trade it for anything in that environment, but I don't think it's a viable solution for my planted tank. To do it right I'd end up purchasing 2 x 150 kits and then any bulb cost savings is long lost. My inital setup cost would be almost double my current AHS 3x96W PC kit.

Just my $.02


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

I hear you on the center brace. I'd ordered my 90 gallon from Oceanic -without- a center brace but it came that way anyway. So I added braces across each end then removed the center brace. Voided the warranty right away, but sometimes risks are worth taking.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I'm getting a 90 gallon tank (hopefully) soon. Which IC ballast are you using to drive the bulb? 430 or 660?


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> I love MH's they rock.
> 
> The E ballast are nice, no noise, instant start etc higher efficacy.
> 
> ...



What are you running? Which E-ballast and what bulbs?


----------



## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

TWood said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Here it is with the hood up:


love it...looks like a little tv! Nice job!
I am glad I got the metals from the start. They are great. I even got one for my big palm tree in my living room


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

epicfish said:


> I'm getting a 90 gallon tank (hopefully) soon. Which IC ballast are you using to drive the bulb? 430 or 660?


I don't know the number, it's THIS ONE


----------



## Canoe2Can (Oct 31, 2004)

epicfish said:


> I'm getting a 90 gallon tank (hopefully) soon. Which IC ballast are you using to drive the bulb? 430 or 660?


The 430 and 660 are both flourescent ballasts. They make different ones to run MH. Check out their website at championlighting.com.


----------



## jokerjp (Nov 16, 2005)

If you are looking for complete MH retro fit kits I highly recomend this retailer. Great service excellent product quality and good prices. IMO You can't beat their reflectors. The electronic ballasts included are silent and run cool. When I'm ready for my next MH retro kit I will be doing business with them again.

Reef Exotics


----------



## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Aquamanx said:


> You must really be into this hobby to drop that much money on lighting... That is a Crazy amount of money to spend on lighting!
> Steve X.


This guy is ill.




TWood said:


> Yes
> 
> Yes
> 
> Yes


Thats what I like to hear sir~!! :thumbsup:


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Brilliant said:


> This guy is ill.


lol. I just dropped $285 on a Tek 4x54w system and if I get this 90 gallon tank...then it'll be for a ballast and a MH system this time. Man oh man.


----------



## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

epicfish said:


> lol. I just dropped $285 on a Tek 4x54w system and if I get this 90 gallon tank...then it'll be for a ballast and a MH system this time. Man oh man.


 I was admiring the Tek lighting.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Brilliant said:


> I was admiring the Tek lighting.


Don't look at the bulbs when you turn it on. It's a little bright, LOL!


----------



## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

epicfish said:


> Don't look at the bulbs when you turn it on. It's a little bright, LOL!


Dont touch the glass on your MH!!!!!!:icon_eek: 

First couple of times I put my hand in my tank i almost got sizzled.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Hehe, my T5 bulbs get hot, but not *that* hot. Man, I'm wondering why I didn't go with MH in the beginning.

How is the spread of light from such a short bulb? (No MH experience, don't murder me!)


----------



## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

epicfish said:


> Hehe, my T5 bulbs get hot, but not *that* hot. Man, I'm wondering why I didn't go with MH in the beginning.
> 
> How is the spread of light from such a short bulb? (No MH experience, don't murder me!)


My bulbs are really short and really bright. It is inexplainable.

I have the 48" Sunpod HQI.

My bulbs are fixed in a 48" fixture above the tank. So without being able to adjust them and with it sitting on the OEM brackets that were included with the fixture...I am happy with the way the tank is lit. There are dark spots in the top corners, "that gives it character". The bottom all around is well lit. It is much different then fluorescent lit tanks. It has grown on me for sure. The sparkle on the bottom IMO is priceless.


Oh yeah and my ceiling has something on it that looks like that bar thing from Yars Revenge cept white.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Brilliant said:


> Oh yeah and my ceiling has something on it that looks like that bar thing from Yars Revenge cept white.



lol

Yep, it'll be one of my next purchases if I decide to get this tank. =)


----------



## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

LOL 
...thats about the only way I can explain that thing.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Jeebus. Can someone help me put together a cheap MH setup? If it's more cost efficient than T5, then I'll go with it. I've decided to go for a 60 gallon instead of a larger setup.


----------



## Justintoxicated (Oct 18, 2006)

I always wanted to make my own fixture out of 3 watt LED's, but I'm not sure how good they would be for plants.

That metal hallide is great but for my 20 gallon I'm thinking overkill compared to PC lol.

beautiful tank BTW


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I've seen a 70w MH over a 20 gallon. Simply stunning coverage and penetration!


----------



## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

epicfish said:


> Jeebus. Can someone help me put together a cheap MH setup? If it's more cost efficient than T5, then I'll go with it. I've decided to go for a 60 gallon instead of a larger setup.


cheap retrofits usually start around $70ish for a magnetic coil ballast / 5400k bulb / white reflector.

if noise bothers you, metal halides aren't cheaper than t5's to startup or maintain because you'll be buying a quality electronic ballast and probably a better lamp and reflector. it's just a different type of light that runs hotter and twice the wattage for around the same amount of par.


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

epicfish said:


> Jeebus. Can someone help me put together a cheap MH setup? If it's more cost efficient than T5, then I'll go with it. I've decided to go for a 60 gallon instead of a larger setup.


What shape 60 gallon? If it's the 36" long by 24" deep by 18" wide one -and- you want to grow carpet plants, then a single 400W MH might do it. Still looking at about $300 though with a decent bulb and electronic ballast. No carpet plants, a 250W or the Iwasaki 175W will work.


----------



## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

400w on a 3ft tank is way too much. he'd burn the plants. a 150w or 250w would be ideal.


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

For carpet plants a 150W won't even come close on a 24" deep tank. After that, it depends on how high above the water the fixture is hung.


----------



## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

i had no problem growing a carpet in my 28" tall tank with a 150w. depends on the plant i guess.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

48" long, 15" wide and 17" tall.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

...if it's 17" tall, would 175w be enough then?



Should I get this from another forum?

400w Blueline E-ballast retro kit ,reflector, w/ 20k ushio and about 8-10used bulbs inluded if you want them... $175.00

or...

2x175w MH setup. This includes: 2 175w ARO Pro Series ballasts, disconnect at the ballast, a disconnect that nails into the canopy, 2 "Heavy Duty" timers, 2 parabolic reflectors (perfect condition), and 2 10-month-old XM 20K... Awesome setup, runs cool, got good color. $280 or $140 for just 1 setup


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

Water clarity plays a big part in light penetration, so it depends. A single 400W would certainly punch at the center, and still grow stem plants on the sides.

I don't know enough about the ballasts to make a recommendation. 175W is considered an odd wattage for reefs, 250W and 400W are more the standard, from what I can tell. That seems high for used stuff.


----------



## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

175w isn't considered an odd wattage. that makes no sense, it's just the initial wattage reefers usually start at depending on the tank size and contents when using a mogul base lamp. hqi start at 150w.

if you put a 400w bulb on an 18" tall tank you're going to kill everything in it, or you're going to be limited to very few plants that can handle that kind of light and heat.

you put 400w bulbs on 24" or taller tanks that require a lot of par.

for a 48" x 18" you'd want 2x150w hqi or 2x175w mogul running parallel to the tank.

20000k xm bulbs on a planted tank are completely useless. they put out extremely low par and are usually run at high wattages to compensate when that's the only thing over a reef. 10month old metal halide lamps go in the garbage, don't spend money on em.


----------



## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

attack11 said:


> hqi start at 150w


HQI start at 70 watts.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

So If I hang a 175w pendant over a 4 foot 60 gallon tank, it'll be enough?

I still can't believe the spread is enough that a 12" long pendant can give a 4 foot tank enough coverage.


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

attack11 said:


> 175w isn't considered an odd wattage. that makes no sense, it's just the initial wattage reefers usually start at depending on the tank size and contents when using a mogul base lamp.


My mistake then, but at reefcentral when someone asked Sanjay to add 175W MH to his site with all the charts, his response implied that he didn't consider 175W worth bothering with. Though he did add the Iwasaki.

epicfish - my 48" long tank is shortened to 42" with an in-tank sump and I'm not growing carpet plants. The stems at each end get enough light because they reach for it. It depends on what you mean by 'coverage'.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Yea, I'm hoping to grow carpet plants, althought not at the very edges, most likely in the middle. Maybe 250w will let me grow carpet plants at the very middle of the tank with a 17" depth.


----------



## shake (Apr 17, 2006)

I'm glad I went with MH. It's the first I have used them and would never go back to anything else. I love the shadow effect in the water and the ripple effect on my wall and ceiling.










A DIY 2 x 150 MH with 2 x 18w Fluoro


----------



## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

epicfish said:


> So If I hang a 175w pendant over a 4 foot 60 gallon tank, it'll be enough?
> 
> I still can't believe the spread is enough that a 12" long pendant can give a 4 foot tank enough coverage.


it won't work unless you have a reflector designed to cover that area. a good single bulb reflector will cover on average a 3' area; some less, some more. there's a lot of information about what the best reflectors cover online.

i have a single bulb over a 3ft tank and it works well, but i would not try to do that on a 4ft.


----------



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Hm, crap. 2x175w or 2x250w would be a pricey lighting setup for a new tank. Might have to hold off on getting a tank for now. We'll see.


----------



## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

I'd love to get a Sunlight Supply Maristar 72" 3x150MH + 4x39 T-5 combo fixture to hang above my 125g tank. Unfortunately, they seemed to have dropped it from their product line. The 3x250 + 4x39 is just too much light for me. Well, the $1400 price is an issue as well. :icon_lol:


----------



## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

You'd have to raise that bulb pretty high to get coverage over a 4' long tank. Standard is definitely 3' of coverage for halides. I'm actually running 2x250W with some T5HO over a 3' long tank right now.

I actually want to see how the 250W Ushio holds up as far as that list is concerned.


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

Gonna have to change my recommendation on the Iwasaki 175. It worked, but.... It still didn't have the kick I wanted to get this tank (90 gallon) into high gear. Plus the color never really warmed up enough. Soooo... I went back to reefcentral.com and read some posts about the Iwasaki 6500K 250W MH. Apparently many reefers use it to get a lot of fast growth, then swap it out for the bluer lamps later. 

So I added that next to the 14K 175W and got a perfect blend of light color, and now the reaction from the plants that I was looking for. I tilted the reflectors in toward each other slightly so the light blends well.

Here's the combined graphs, overlaid with the chlorophyl reaction graph:










Odd that nobody makes a lamp with a spike up at 620-680nm.

Graphs copyright: Sanjay's Reef Lighting Info Pages


----------



## crazy loaches (Sep 29, 2006)

So you ended up getting the 6500K 250 also eh? Both of them together shoulda made that tank brighten up just a tad? 

Its to bad they dont move those peaks on the 250W bulb around the middle and down to the 620-680 rrange. I guess the only way you are going to get that is to also throw a HPS lamp in the mix, but then you have added a lot of cost again and now have a definate orange cast to everything.

I am still debating on going the MH route or T5 (possibly a complete DIY 85W overdriven setup with individual parabolics). I think the t5 lamp selectrion and availability still leaves a bit to be desired. But a 2-lamp MH is going to cost a bit more for sure, even all diy, but probably worth it. I am torn dangit! To bad Icecap doesnt make a twin output ballast that would be more cost effective than buying 2 seperate ballasts.


----------



## Justintoxicated (Oct 18, 2006)

Dang I have never tried MH so I can't comment but I don't think I can see myself swithcing the lightng on my 20 gallon anytime soon. The PC 64 watt light already heats my tanks and my room way to much in the summer when ambient temps get over 100 deg...

Maybe I will make something out of the new Cree LED's I know the know how, just not the time or funds. They are close to HID efficiency...


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

crazy loaches said:


> So you ended up getting the 6500K 250 also eh? Both of them together shoulda made that tank brighten up just a tad?


Yeah. :tongue: 

Individually the tank looks dark, which is what I've heard about MH. But together it's very bright. 



> I am still debating on going the MH route or T5 (possibly a complete DIY 85W overdriven setup with individual parabolics). I think the t5 lamp selectrion and availability still leaves a bit to be desired.


I noticed that too. This market is driven by the reefers and they like blue.



> But a 2-lamp MH is going to cost a bit more for sure, even all diy, but probably worth it. I am torn dangit! To bad Icecap doesnt make a twin output ballast that would be more cost effective than buying 2 seperate ballasts.


Blueline and PFO might make that, but dunno about any cost savings.


----------



## crazy loaches (Sep 29, 2006)

So how do the two compare visually, like if you lit it with just the 14K compared to just the 67K... I am thinking about these bulbs, but the thing is I just dont think the extra spikes in the 6700K bulb are as beneficial as the one bigger one in the 14000K bulb... but I think I'll defenatly need the 250 watt'ers... wonder if they make a 250W version of the 14000K bulb.

And why has Sanjay called it a 15,000K bulb on those graphs? Are we certain we are talking about the same bulb as Sanjay tested?


----------



## TWood (Nov 1, 2005)

crazy loaches said:


> So how do the two compare visually, like if you lit it with just the 14K compared to just the 67K...


With just the 14K it's a tad blue, with just the 65K it's a tad yellow. With either alone, the tank looks dark.



> I am thinking about these bulbs, but the thing is I just dont think the extra spikes in the 6700K bulb are as beneficial as the one bigger one in the 14000K bulb... but I think I'll defenatly need the 250 watt'ers... wonder if they make a 250W version of the 14000K bulb.


Iwasaki doesn't make this lamp in 250W, but there are a lot of choices in 10K and 14K lamps made by others. Look at the graphs and they all have that spike in the low end of the spectrum. But with 14K the tank will definitely look blue so you might consider 10K lamps.



> And why has Sanjay called it a 15,000K bulb on those graphs? Are we certain we are talking about the same bulb as Sanjay tested?


Yeah, it's the same lamp, Iwasaki makes only one anything like it. Dunno why the confusion.


----------

