# A Hill's Rack, failed sorta kinda, and it is now moving locations.



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Sounds TOOOOOOOOO COOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!!
Hope it flies without a veto vote from Mom this time good luck!


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

She has finally accepted it I guess. The whole I've been accepted to all my colleges so far helped a lot, also not really telling her much until I've started really getting stuff helped as well. (3 rejection letters coming soon though:icon_roll really reach schools) 

One thing I'm not too sure on yet is what T5s to go with, I'm probably going to wire my own stuff up and put ballasts on top of the stand or something so I figure I'll try one per level (3 levels, 4 feet long = 12 tanks, 120 gallons, 12 species of moss at one per tank, and if this works well rack number two coming to a location soon!) but am worried it won't give enough light spread with good reflectors so I'm not too sure yet.

-Andrew


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

At 20" front to back I think you will need eihter 2 or 3 bulbs to get the lighting your looking for. Maybe 3 T5NO bulbs?

Craig


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Craigthor said:


> At 20" front to back I think you will need eihter 2 or 3 bulbs to get the lighting your looking for. Maybe 3 T5NO bulbs?
> 
> Craig


Its going to be interesting... 

I'm going to try and make it work with two per shelf to start but I'll see as time goes on.

I'm going to try and stay no co2 with this setup, because if I use CO2 I'll need a 20# tank or something large.

The build might happen next weekend, I've been sick.

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

So I bought the wood today $60 worth of 2x4s and plywood. This afternoon it'll all be cut and hopefully by this time tomorrow there will be a rack standing in the basement!

Now I'm looking to figure out my lighting situation. I'm thinking 2 T5 bulbs per shelf, initially I'm going to do two shelves and they're 24 deep so the light probably won't be super even. Right now, I'm looking at $100 max on light. This may mean only one rack gets T5 but I'm hoping I can do both lighting with t5s. I'm probably going to buy the coralife ones and strip them down. I'm not sure exactly. I'm probably going to make a lighting thread.

So it is getting going!
-Andrew


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## FDNY911 (Dec 6, 2009)

Why were they changing their minds so often? Was it the Electric bill they worry about? Hows the upkeep for all that? You paying for it? This is an awesome idea man ... are you going to be selling any of that moss? Your own personal store lol


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

A Hill said:


> So I bought the wood today $60 worth of 2x4s and plywood. This afternoon it'll all be cut and hopefully by this time tomorrow there will be a rack standing in the basement!
> 
> Now I'm looking to figure out my lighting situation. I'm thinking 2 T5 bulbs per shelf, initially I'm going to do two shelves and they're 24 deep so the light probably won't be super even. Right now, I'm looking at $100 max on light. This may mean only one rack gets T5 but I'm hoping I can do both lighting with t5s. I'm probably going to buy the coralife ones and strip them down. I'm not sure exactly. I'm probably going to make a lighting thread.
> 
> ...


 
How wide is the stand? Home depot had some T5NO setups that included bulbs for ~$32 for a 2 bulb 48" unit. They had 2 and 3 footers as well.

Craig


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

FDNY911 said:


> Why were they changing their minds so often? Was it the Electric bill they worry about? Hows the upkeep for all that? You paying for it? This is an awesome idea man ... are you going to be selling any of that moss? Your own personal store lol


There were a lot of factors involved, I think the main thing was they thought I'd stop focusing on other stuff as well or stop with the aquariums. Now being accepted to almost all of my colleges they're more willing to let me flood the basement  Yes this will be the moss rack hopefully helping to supply the hobby with a consistent supply of mosses. It has been a goal of mine for years finally becoming reality. 



Craigthor said:


> How wide is the stand? Home depot had some T5NO setups that included bulbs for ~$32 for a 2 bulb 48" unit. They had 2 and 3 footers as well.
> 
> Craig


Since when does Home Depot have T5?!!? I knew they had T8 but T5 must be new. I'm going to go there now.

I'm going to add a Need to buy list above but right now I have to add: 
Sink
8 10 gallon aquariums, will be ordered next week.
T5 Lighting
Power strip + Timers
Glass tops for Aquariums

Thanks,
-Andrew


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

A Hill said:


> There were a lot of factors involved, I think the main thing was they thought I'd stop focusing on other stuff as well or stop with the aquariums. Now being accepted to almost all of my colleges they're more willing to let me flood the basement  Yes this will be the moss rack hopefully helping to supply the hobby with a consistent supply of mosses. It has been a goal of mine for years finally becoming reality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
They had them when I was in there yesterday along with all there other strip lights. These were NO and all included the bulbs. I think there were 3 different sizes each wiht 2 bulbs in each.

Craig


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Craigthor said:


> They had them when I was in there yesterday along with all there other strip lights. These were NO and all included the bulbs. I think there were 3 different sizes each wiht 2 bulbs in each.
> 
> Craig


Like actual fixtures like the T8 fixtures they have always had?

I couldn't find information about them online...
-Andrew


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

A Hill said:


> Like actual fixtures like the T8 fixtures they have always had?
> 
> I couldn't find information about them online...
> -Andrew


Yep jsut like in the T8 section but they were T5NO the 4' had 2- 28 watt bulbs. They don't have anything online I looked already aswell. I believe they were Lithonia brand.

Craig


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Craigthor said:


> Yep jsut like in the T8 section but they were T5NO the 4' had 2- 28 watt bulbs. They don't have anything online I looked already aswell. I believe they were Lithonia brand.
> 
> Craig


Time to check to see if they have any near me! If they do, I'll be back with the lighting soon

Thanks for the information, I went to Lowes this morning for the wood and they don't have T5 fixtures of any size yet (just tiny kitchen stuff)

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

So I went to go to home Depots, and well... I went to where it used to be. Then came back for dinner. The funny part was the new location is right behind the old one and I passed it. I guess I was too excited to think or something, so I'll go there tomorrow and check out the T5 stuff.

In other news all the wood is cut, took about 45 mins or so and its all clamped now. Tomorrow morning I'm going to assemble it all.

Fun stuff, I'll put pictures of everything going on tomorrow.
-Andrew


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

A Hill said:


> So I went to go to home Depots, and well... I went to where it used to be. Then came back for dinner. The funny part was the new location is right behind the old one and I passed it. I guess I was too excited to think or something, so I'll go there tomorrow and check out the T5 stuff.
> 
> In other news all the wood is cut, took about 45 mins or so and its all clamped now. Tomorrow morning I'm going to assemble it all.
> 
> ...


:icon_cool


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Craigthor said:


> :icon_cool


I guess thats what happens after spending the three most gorgeous hours of the weekend volunteering at the children's museum and there being very few children. 

On the positive side I am great at making hoop gliders now if anyone wants to entertain young kids get a piece of paper, and cut a strip of paper the long way about 1 inch wide. Then cut a piece the short way afterwards same width. Decorate paper with markers and then tape them so they make two rings/hoops. Tape them to a straw. Throw, watch the smiles appear

So yeah, tomorrow the rack gets finished, I'm back to the children's musée for a few more hours and on the way back I'll stop at HomeDepot to hopefully buy some lights.

I have 14 inches between the top of the tank and the bottom of the next shelf, which will be awesome, but still slicker lighting the better!
-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

So quick update, the shelf is built, GFCI outlet above the rack is installed. Now for the tanks to be ordered this week and lights to be found at home depot. Both will likely take place tomorrow afternoon.

In other news I made an impulse buy today at a LFS... 8 dario dario and a potential pair of CPOs, for $60 total. Not too shabby especially for LFS prices. I almost bought some "FW" flounders but the owner said she was keeping them in slightly brackish water because thats what the wholesalers keep them in supposedly. I still may go back and buy some to try them out, They're only $3 and I've wanted them for ages.

-Andrew


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

Are the freshwater flounders a different species? or just raised from babies in fresher water

I cant find much good info about them, but it seems the do better in brackish and dont live that long suggesting they may not really be freshwater fish


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

fishsandwitch said:


> Are the freshwater flounders a different species? or just raised from babies in fresher water
> 
> I cant find much good info about them, but it seems the do better in brackish and dont live that long suggesting they may not really be freshwater fish


I just did some researching ( I had done some years ago) and it seems most are hogchokers and aren't truely FW generally. It seems that occasionally true FW flounders are imported and Tom Barr knows of a source in central Florida.

They also get large up to 4-10 inches and my tank has the largest fish apart from my bushy nose pleco as a badis badis around 2 inches :hihi: so flounders aren't coming home any time soon either way.

I'll post pictures tomorrow,
-Andrew


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Who is going to maintain the tanks while your at school?


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Where are the lights, did you slack off this afternoon.


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## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

pics of the stand? idea sounds really neato!


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

I haven't seen these T5NO fixtures yet. I did buy two of their 48" T8/T12 shop lights, the quality has really gone down. Blew not one.....not two....not three.....but FIVE bulbs within days of using them. Even using T8's, same result. T12's, same result. Even used Zoo-Med bulbs, blew those too!

Maybe it was bad luck, who knows. I tossed that lousy fixture in garage and went to Lowes and bought another. Two weeks in, no issues so far.

And Mr. Hill, my rack should be built by next weekend as well. Just need to wait until my dad and I have time. I bought 16 tanks (12 being 10g's) for $30 a month ago. CHA-CHING!


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## AlexXx (Dec 1, 2009)

I cant wait for pics omg omg.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Gatekeeper said:


> Who is going to maintain the tanks while your at school?


Well first off, they're just low light moss tanks:hihi: But my Dad will and I'm in the process of recruiting my brother for next year (he is a junior in high school) then I'll come home from breaks and sell all the moss out of them, let it grow again etc. 



Craigthor said:


> Where are the lights, did you slack off this afternoon.


I just got them. I actually made an idiot rhode islander mistake. I went to where the home depot was a few years ago (5 or so at least:help and just came home. The worst part was it only moved like 1/4 a mile up the street but I was rushing. lol. So now I've got two 4 foot t5 fixtures sitting in my basement on my rack for $70 or so :icon_smil I might buy or make reflectors eventually and separate the bulbs a bit as well. Thanks a bunch for telling me about them! (The light bulbs are 3500K so they'll need to be replaced as well, but still)



pianofish said:


> pics of the stand? idea sounds really neato!


I do, I'm going to post them tonight. Its just 2x4s a few feet of 1/4 inch plywood and some nails and screws, took 2 hours to make



Burks said:


> I haven't seen these T5NO fixtures yet. I did buy two of their 48" T8/T12 shop lights, the quality has really gone down. Blew not one.....not two....not three.....but FIVE bulbs within days of using them. Even using T8's, same result. T12's, same result. Even used Zoo-Med bulbs, blew those too!
> 
> Maybe it was bad luck, who knows. I tossed that lousy fixture in garage and went to Lowes and bought another. Two weeks in, no issues so far.
> 
> And Mr. Hill, my rack should be built by next weekend as well. Just need to wait until my dad and I have time. I bought 16 tanks (12 being 10g's) for $30 a month ago. CHA-CHING!


Sounds like something was wrong, maybe wiring? I've never had a problem with mine. Nice to hear you're setting yours up as well. I went to one of my LFS today to order the tanks and the management is new. They wouldn't give me a discount for 12 10g... claimed they don't make enough money off of them, well now they make no money:hihi:



AlexXx said:


> I cant wait for pics omg omg.


Its awesome to finally have the stuff started, pictures will come shortly (aka tonight probly.)

-Andrew


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

If the LFS is selling them for $10+, they are making money. If you factor in shipping, maybe not. But really adding tanks to an order barely increases shipping, if any at all from what I've noticed. We always brought in the max number of 10g's and it was only a couple bucks more (sometimes no increase).

IIRC at the beginning of last year, wholesale on a 10g was like $7.xx from All-Glass (before they became Aqueon?). Perfecto was a tad more.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Burks said:


> If the LFS is selling them for $10+, they are making money. If you factor in shipping, maybe not. But really adding tanks to an order barely increases shipping, if any at all from what I've noticed. We always brought in the max number of 10g's and it was only a couple bucks more (sometimes no increase).
> 
> IIRC at the beginning of last year, wholesale on a 10g was like $7.xx from All-Glass (before they became Aqueon?). Perfecto was a tad more.


Yeah i figured as much. They wanted $18 a piece for a 10g:help: that is crazy IMO. There are like half a dozen LFS around me so I'm going to all of them and trying to get $10 a piece for 10g aquariums, I'll buy up to 12 if I have to to get the wholesale price. 

Next I have to construct my glass tops, DiabloCaine style:icon_smil

Pictures coming shortly,
-Andrew


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

A Hill said:


> Yeah i figured as much. They wanted $18 a piece for a 10g:help: that is crazy IMO. There are like half a dozen LFS around me so I'm going to all of them and trying to get $10 a piece for 10g aquariums, I'll buy up to 12 if I have to to get the wholesale price.
> 
> Next I have to construct my glass tops, DiabloCaine style:icon_smil
> 
> ...


Got a local wal mart or 3? They are like $11.00 here for a 10g.

Craig


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Some pictures:

Saturday night, wood cut and clamped.
So I grouped the wood per shelf first to keep track of all the cutting and what was needed. 









2x4s cut and clamped









Plywood now cut and clamped as well









Finished product. Assembled by simple nailing 2 4 foot sections and two 2ft ends together, three sets of those. Then screwed on the 1/4 inch plywood with drywall screws. Finally put the shelves up with good outdoor deck screws. 









Electric outlet installed above on the ceiling, also notice small red nuclear physics textbook in foreground, it adds some nice red to the scape.









Maybe have some more pictures of the progression next week. I'm sorry I don't have construction pictures the batteries were dead and I was in a rush to get it done before 11 since I was off to the children's museum.



Craigthor said:


> Got a local wal mart or 3? They are like $11.00 here for a 10g.
> 
> Craig


I do... I dislike Walmart though... I would almost rather go to petco... but petco may give me issues...

One other local LFS then to Walmart tomorrow!!!! (I'm assuming they're AGA/Aqueon tanks right?

-Andrew


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## Tuiflies (Jan 14, 2010)

Pardon my ignorance but why are the pieces all clamped together pre-assembly? Are the 2x4's under the shelves glued together? The plywood appears to be single sheets on top of the shelves too.


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

That plywood will be ok. Looks like the edges of the tanks will be supported by the 2x4's. If I am seeing it correctly, looks like he has a 2x4 running down the center as well.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Tuiflies said:


> Pardon my ignorance but why are the pieces all clamped together pre-assembly? Are the 2x4's under the shelves glued together? The plywood appears to be single sheets on top of the shelves too.


Nothing is glued. It was to keep the wood from warping. The plywood is a single sheet on top of the frame.

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Burks said:


> That plywood will be ok. Looks like the edges of the tanks will be supported by the 2x4's. If I am seeing it correctly, looks like he has a 2x4 running down the center as well.


Ohh gotcha... There are 2x4 pieces inside the ends. This was a bit of a design gaff because initially I was planning to use more support on the sides. Since they're just 10g tanks they'll be fine. 

-Andrew


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## Tuiflies (Jan 14, 2010)

A Hill said:


> Nothing is glued. It was to keep the wood from warping. The plywood is a single sheet on top of the frame.
> 
> -Andrew


roud:


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## AlexXx (Dec 1, 2009)

Sorry to sounds skeptical or challenge your craftsmanship bud do you think each of those shelves could hold >360lbs? I dont know if i would trust a few screws. Maybe that angle iron type stuff would be a good idea to invest in to give a bit of extra support. You dont want a collapse... that be alot of water/time/money down the drain.... Sorry if i sound ignorant, just trying to help. dont want this long thought out plan to collapse.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

AlexXx said:


> Sorry to sounds skeptical or challenge your craftsmanship bud do you think each of those shelves could hold >360lbs? I dont know if i would trust a few screws. Maybe that angle iron type stuff would be a good idea to invest in to give a bit of extra support. You dont want a collapse... that be alot of water/time/money down the drain.... Sorry if i sound ignorant, just trying to help. dont want this long thought out plan to collapse.


Don't worry, I've got a 1/4 inch plywood box holding my 55g :icon_lol:

Have you ever taken a look at commercial aquarium stands?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it'll be perfectly fine but thank you for the concern it is a shared concern with me as well. 

-Andrew


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

A Hill said:


> I went to one of my LFS today to order the tanks and the management is new. They wouldn't give me a discount for 12 10g... claimed they don't make enough money off of them, well now they make no money:hihi:
> -Andrew


I work at a LFS and while no discount on 12 seems completely crazy at the surface, if you LFS is selling them for 10-15 bucks to compete with walmart they really might only be making 1-5 bucks on each of them.
Some things walmart buy so many of they get a huge discount that LFSs cant get or they just sell them at no profit because they are so large and can afford too


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## AlexXx (Dec 1, 2009)

Alright! Good luck!! Hope it works out! Man i would love to do something like this some day, but right now time/money/space is lacking lol. Cant wait to see the finished product.


Oh and i was at my LFS today and they had a stack in the corner for 10 gallons for 8.99 each... im pissed cuz i just spent 15 at Petco for one a few weeks ago... :/


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

A Hill said:


> Don't worry, I've got a 1/4 inch plywood box holding my 55g :icon_lol:
> 
> Have you ever taken a look at commercial aquarium stands?
> 
> ...


I have to agree with the above... really when building stands, you should have wood resting on wood, with screws as the anchor. Not Using screws for structural purposes. 

It puts a lot of stress on screws and they really are not designed as structural elements. There is a reason they are called fasteners.


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## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

over_stocked said:


> I have to agree with the above... really when building stands, you should have wood resting on wood, with screws as the anchor. Not Using screws for structural purposes.
> 
> It puts a lot of stress on screws and they really are not designed as structural elements. There is a reason they are called fasteners.



I agree also. That stand is going to be fine on the first day. It's a year or more that it would cause me concern. It's so overbuilt that I think would last a long time, but relying on screws for support will lead it to fail catastrophically when it does. My suggestion would be to add a 2x4 vertically in the middle on each shelf, front and back, if it will fit. This would do a lot to take the load off of those screws, and you could use it for a few years with a little more confidence.


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

You should of at the very least notched the vertical 2x4. Another option it to use 1/2 bolts instead of deck screws to secure the shelves. I wouldnt put any aquariums on that, Id move it over by the washing machine to store TP and laundry detergent on.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Simply adding 2x4s vertically under the tank frames on the 4 vertical posts will fix it. I would also run a diagonal 1x3 on the back from bottom right to top left screwed to all contact points to help with buckling. 

The danger is real.... Fixing it is too easy not to.


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## joestreich (Mar 24, 2005)

i agree about simply adding 2x4 under the frames is a very good idea. I fear that the stand was designed down to the inch and that adding these studs would throw off his spacing.

They do make structural screws and the sheer strength on those are insane.

Another option would be to add nails. Nails have a lot more sheer strength than screws. 360 pounds per shelf. Not that much if two nails were used as attachment on each post.

Ideally though, I think adding the 2x4s is the best option - just my 2 cents


Great project and looking forward to some more pics


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

fishsandwitch said:


> I work at a LFS and while no discount on 12 seems completely crazy at the surface, if you LFS is selling them for 10-15 bucks to compete with walmart they really might only be making 1-5 bucks on each of them.
> Some things walmart buy so many of they get a huge discount that LFSs cant get or they just sell them at no profit because they are so large and can afford too


Well, my LFS is selling 10g bare black trimmed tanks for ≈$20 wholesale they run from $5-$10 I've been told (AGA -> aqueon)... and it is crazy, because as someone else was telling me it costs nothing to get 10g tanks added to an order and it would be an extra $20-$40 bucks they would've easily made since I'd have to pay ahead and everything. Its a management issue with me, the guy interviewed me for a job and didn't like that I knew my stuff more or less. He got into an argument with me over the similarities and differences in systems between the vivaria for PDFs and the planted aquaria in terms of automation for when one is away from home and this was when I initially decided to do planted aquariums vs. vivariums, and he knew very little to nothing about vivariums and PDFs. He also asked what I would do with an empty tank that was there, than criticized me because that isn't what most customers would want. I politely said that he didn't ask what I would do if that were a customer's tank and the obvious answer to that question would be to talk to the customer about what they want and their goals are etc. He turned around and hired some really unexperienced short term memory kid who keeps plastic plants or something. Whatever though, I'm glad I'm not working there.



AlexXx said:


> Alright! Good luck!! Hope it works out! Man i would love to do something like this some day, but right now time/money/space is lacking lol. Cant wait to see the finished product.
> 
> 
> Oh and i was at my LFS today and they had a stack in the corner for 10 gallons for 8.99 each... im pissed cuz i just spent 15 at Petco for one a few weeks ago... :/


Thanks, hopefully you do eventually! Here they're like $16 at Petsmart I think, and petco isn't really around here. I'm off to Walmart later today.



over_stocked said:


> I have to agree with the above... really when building stands, you should have wood resting on wood, with screws as the anchor. Not Using screws for structural purposes.
> 
> It puts a lot of stress on screws and they really are not designed as structural elements. There is a reason they are called fasteners.


Initially, I had planned to put another 2x4 piece inside the outside one for the shelves to rest on, that is why they 2ft piece is on the outside opposed to inside the 4ft piece. my dad thought it was over the top, but I still have the extra wood so maybe I'll add them today before I fill the tanks up I'm going to purchase. Thanks to all for the concern. Also, this tank rack will probably be here for 1-4 years so it is appreciated. 



In other news, I'm getting some (hopefully all) of the tanks today. I also may return the cheap T5 lights for T8s. I figure I don't want to half ass anything and I really am doing that with these T5s and the T8s will probably be better, and cheaper, especially because I can buy the bulbs at home depot as well opposed to having to order them online for $10 a piece (T5s came with 3500K bulbs...)

So it'll be a fun day, I'm also adding tools and some hardscape elements for sale on the website today and hopefully fitting in a calc test and some other homework, but that maybe done tomorrow afternoon after I get back from visiting Babson College.

Thanks all!
-Andrew


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

If the room is there, just do it. Screws really are not designed to support this kind of weight.


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Hi Andrew,

Can you get Visio aquariums on the east coast? They are made in LA but they come from the company that makes Clear-for-Life acrylic tanks.

A local LFS in san diego sells them retail for $6.99. I got three and a 60 gallon for $57. You might be able to contact the manufacturer to see if there is a local ditributor. I am sure shipping to the east coast will add to the cost though

Bill


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

over_stocked said:


> If the room is there, just do it. Screws really are not designed to support this kind of weight.


I'm going add some shearing pieces to the inside. I'm not sure if I mentioned but no tanks are going on the top. Maybe some growing trays and other random stuff.



billb said:


> Hi Andrew,
> 
> Can you get Visio aquariums on the east coast? They are made in LA but they come from the company that makes Clear-for-Life acrylic tanks.
> 
> ...


Wow that is a good price, I actually just (4 places later) got my 8 10gs ordered for a price under $15 guaranteed, most likely around $12 a piece but the manager/owner didn't have the number to look it up, he assured me they would be at least under $15 for sure (there weren't any normal 10g tanks in stock)

So talking about tanks.

Walmart near me downsized their fish section and doesn't sell anything live now!! Which is awesome because I don't believe they should. They also don't carry just the 10g tanks anymore they only carry 10g 20g etc beginner sets. 

Next I went to Target next door to see if they may have aquariums, they only have normal pet stuff so that was fine.

I went to PetSmart but to just keep it simple it smells awful all the fish are dieing and I hate the place so I left after the staff had no answer on tank price if I bought them all lol..

Then I stopped at home and afterwards went to Dr. Doolittle's another local pet store or small regional chain, with the feel of a local store whatever. I've kinda known the owner for a while from when I would buy crickets and stuff. He guaranteed me a price less than $15 a piece with the thought that they'd be around $12 

I'll probably switch the lights out on monday and take care of that, the Tanks are coming later this week (Thursday I think) so that'll wait till next weekend. Right now I'm off to work on my website some more and update the hardscape and tools section with pre-order options on some new scissors and forceps and stuff Good stuff I'd say!

Thanks for checking the thread out,
-Andrew


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

Yeah, I agree with getting t8s, and you have so much clearance you might consider making mylar reflectors or flat white paint even would be alright


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

fishsandwitch said:


> Yeah, I agree with getting t8s, and you have so much clearance you might consider making mylar reflectors or flat white paint even would be alright


Yeah, tons of clearance so it isn't really a big deal. I figure some basic reflectors do a good job.

Also, as an aside, Tools are now available for preorder on my site. Shipping out mid april.

Tanks and everything are probably going to be done on good friday!

-Andrew


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## stewardwildcat (Feb 24, 2010)

Bracing your rack is a good idea if you plan on keeping it around for a long time. You might be able to add a few joist hangers to relieve the stresses on a few screws to many. It looks like you are doing a great job.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

stewardwildcat said:


> Bracing your rack is a good idea if you plan on keeping it around for a long time. You might be able to add a few joist hangers to relieve the stresses on a few screws to many. It looks like you are doing a great job.


Yeah, I was planning to add them Friday with my new tanks. 

Unfortunately my rack was filled today, anyone see on the news about the flooding in New England? Well my basement flooded. Nothing too serious but a constant few inches with pumps and whatnot, so the rack is now holding tons of books and stuff, it is actually a really good thing it was there and empty or there may have been problems this morning....

So it saved all the books it also is barely getting any water up it via capillary action so that it good as well. 

So the project may take a bit longer than expected, depends how fast New England drains out... Rainiest March ever on record, Major rain storms every week and over 4 feet of rain or something crazy.

-Andrew


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## stewardwildcat (Feb 24, 2010)

If this is common you may want to seal the legs of your rack so they wont mold. We rarely have to deal with major flooding here in AZ only the flash kind. It comes, it goes, and takes whatever it can with it. Good luck drying out!!


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

stewardwildcat said:


> If this is common you may want to seal the legs of your rack so they wont mold. We rarely have to deal with major flooding here in AZ only the flash kind. It comes, it goes, and takes whatever it can with it. Good luck drying out!!


This is the first, and probably last time there will be water in the basement. I'll watch it for mold... 

Thanks,
-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

So no water in my basement anymore, it has been dry for a while. 

The pet store never called me to pick up the tanks so I went over and they weren't delivered... I don't think the guy ordered them to be honest. Anyway, I went back and he said they should be in this week coming so I'm hoping he orders them and whatnot...

Rack is still holding crap from the great flood's wrath. It must be cleaned off and used properly soon. Then the rack will have the extra support added, tanks added, lights added, water added, and moss added! I'm a bit excited!

-Andrew


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Wettest March ever in NE, eh?
We've gotten about 5.75 inches of water in all of 2010. Driest start of the year ever here by a good 1.5".
A rack of tanks sure would be fun to have haha.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Yes in three weeks we got more rain than ever in our recorded history (,which is a very short time IMO and hate this type of fact, but still!) I think we got like 50 inches or something crazy in those three weeks maybe double that I can't remember to be honest. I know my city was number 3 for rainfall in RI but we didn't flood much.

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

So another slight update, the rack is now mostly empty and I exchanged the T5s for T8s it is double bulb fixtures and I bought 6500k lights for them, all in all around $60 so not too bad. Eventually I'll upgrade to T5 the correct way but that is down the road for now. 

It seems like everything in my life is lagging right now... The aquariums did not come in this week and the owner assured me that they would be in on wednesday of next week for sure, and I could pick them up thursday, but I actually will not be around then so I'll probably pick them up Saturday. I'm going to be in Atlanta and am hoping to head over to the Atlanta Aquarium that Wednesday, If you happen to be going to the Dream Deferred Conference let me know I'll look for you at breakfast! 

Also the tools have gotten lagged too... They are coming though...

Blah, hope everyone is enjoying their week and will enjoy the weekend. Also, watched Disney's "Bedtime Stories" with Adam Sandler, it may be one of the best new disney movies outrageous and pretty funny if you're looking for a very light movie or have kids, I highly recommend it, plenty of stuff that they probably won't get and you will too. 

-Andrew


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

I'm ashamed to admit it, but I saw bedtime stories a few months ago and it was pretty funny.
And IDK if I'm just noticing it a lot today, but you're about the 12th person that I've heard say to enjoy the weekend (including TV lol)

But anyway, I hope you get the tanks in soon. It sucks when things like that get delayed. Have fun in Atlanta.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

CL said:


> I'm ashamed to admit it, but I saw bedtime stories a few months ago and it was pretty funny.
> And IDK if I'm just noticing it a lot today, but you're about the 12th person that I've heard say to enjoy the weekend (including TV lol)
> 
> But anyway, I hope you get the tanks in soon. It sucks when things like that get delayed. Have fun in Atlanta.


Gotta love Disney movies, to he honest I wouldn't have picked it up probably but it came via netflix for my mom or something and I watched it. Was really surprised how good it was, but Adam Sandler does a great job in everything pretty much and they referenced some of his other movies too. 

Enjoy the weekend :hihi: 

They'll hopefully be set to go this weekend!

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

So I have the rack, I have the lights, and still don't have the tanks... it is quite maddening I placed the order a month ago at a LFS. I'm going to have a word with said LFS tomorrow and get some either way tomorrow. I do have one random tank growing out a few mosses sitting on the rack now and the lights are working well. Stringy moss, nano moss, and a willow moss are growing great.

Figured I'd update it a bit since it has been a while. Hopefully some good update tomorrow... 

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

So I now have aquariums for the rack. Lights for the rack. Water for the rack. 

Now I need to add some extra wood to support the middle shelf then fill the tanks up. Pictures coming a bit later, my dream is now not deferred and it feels great.

-Andrew


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## ch3fb0yrdee (Oct 2, 2008)

Hurry it up already! I wanna see how your rack is! I might wannna copy


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

ch3fb0yrdee said:


> Hurry it up already! I wanna see how your rack is! I might wannna copy


It is finished. Kinda still need to buy 2 more 10g aquariums. After that it will be filled. The other 6 I bought today are filled with water and on the rack. I've got about half of them with mosses and süßwassertang inside and two empty at the moment (mosses need to be put in.) Next step is getting everything thoroughly sorted, cleaned a bit, and tied down to mesh. Then it'll be in business. 

I've decided to keep it moss only and really well with just that for now, possibly expanding to another rack over the summer.

For the last month I clamped the stand at the middle shelf lengthwise to keep it together a bit better because it had pulled away a little bit, everything seems better now and with the extra shims seems really solid. I'll clean everything up a bit tonight an take some pictures.

Thanks for the advice, questions, and encouragement, oh and for buying stuff from me since that helped pay for everything:icon_smil.

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Some long awaited pictures:

























The sticker's ink stays on... gotta clean them. 









A bit of extra wood.









Thanks for the advice, encouragement, honesty, and feedback and support in general! 








-Andrew


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## Beeya (Mar 29, 2010)

Looks really good. From what I can see in your last couple of pics though the extra support you added for the middle shelf isn't contributing any load bearing capacity. You'd need to add support under the long 2x4s to take any of the shear weight off the screws. Flip the supports you added so they are aligned along the length of the rack and directly support both length and width shelf pieces and you should be fine.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Yup... Unfortunately the way you made the platforms means the weight is still all on screws. Might _seem _safe, but it isn't. Would hate to have tons of water come crashing down. When using screws, remember, "wood on wood" for structural support.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Oh boy, you're gonna be bummed when one of your meathead buddies leans on that thing and it parallelograms on you.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Beeya said:


> Looks really good. From what I can see in your last couple of pics though the extra support you added for the middle shelf isn't contributing any load bearing capacity. You'd need to add support under the long 2x4s to take any of the shear weight off the screws. Flip the supports you added so they are aligned along the length of the rack and directly support both length and width shelf pieces and you should be fine.


Now I see what you're saying. That part of the shelf is not the deck screws the frame is nailed together with large galvanized nails. Then the shelves are attached to the uprights with the deck screws. For added structural support I'm going to add a piece of plywood or metal to reinforce the whole section there. Thanks though, I finally realized what you guys were saying.

No one will lean on it, since very few people will ever see it in person 

-Andrew


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## Beeya (Mar 29, 2010)

So the weight right now is all on some nails? Probably best to get something under there asap. 

Here's how your rack is now:











Here's how it should look:










Add some 2x4's where I've put the vertical green bars and you will have that shelf supported.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Well they're 16 penny nails, supposedly they have a shear force of over 1000 pounds according to what I could find online, my dad was saying (he was formerly a nuclear physicist) that it'd take something around 10,000 pounds to have a clear shear like you're describing above. There are 4 nails on each joint holding the wood together and then there are two screws pulling the shelves to the uprights so that there will be no gaps which could allow for some problems. With deck screws, those could shear (more likely but still highly unlikely) and that is why I reenforced that section. 

The rack is rock solid. It also isn't worth me arguing with him about, if they do shear he will have to accept he was wrong, it'll get cleaned up and rebuilt. 

Thanks though, I understand what you're saying.
-Andrew


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

Your father may have a degree, but many of us have practical experience with wood and nails. Neither nails nor wood have will react to stress like load graded hardware. 
In theory, theory and reality are the same. 
In practice, you need support where Beeya marked. It's just four more pieces of 2x material for a huge increase in support and stability. 

Second possible nit to pick. 
I hope the blue electrical box containing the GFI and outlets feeding your rack - is surface mounted.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Your father may have a degree, but many of us have practical experience with wood and nails. Neither nails nor wood have will react to stress like load graded hardware.
> In theory, theory and reality are the same.
> In practice, you need support where Beeya marked. It's just four more pieces of 2x material for a huge increase in support and stability.
> 
> ...


I agree, just like an engineer can design a house but in practicality 50% of what they draw has to be altered for real world use. Numbers on paper and what happens in real life is definitely 2 different things. Just like when the builder wanted us to lay brick up a roof line on a non load bearing support. The achitect said it would work but we had to explain that 10000 lbs on a non load bearing support was a bad idea. Long story short is that roof had to be replaced once it started to cave.

Craig


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## Nate McFin (Mar 19, 2009)

Ditto. It also isn't just the shearing of the nails I would be concerned about. The wood surrounding the nails will break before that happens. The idea of adding supports where recommended is to distribute the wait across a bigger surface. The supports should also be added to the front as well as the back as marked. The way it is now will fail its just a matter of when. A couple of 2x4s will take away any chance of that. Pretty small price to pay!


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Ditto all the comments above. Using nails is asking for trouble. Wood and nails do not last. Wood will weaken under this sort of strain. Nails split the wood, starting the splitting. Even if the wood does not crack, nails will pull out. At least screws will not pull out. Bolts are even better. 
Add the support as shown by the green lines. Use bolts or at least screws, never nails for a project where strength like this is required. 
Also, paint the wood, all over, top, bottom, ends... Exterior grade paint.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Craigthor said:


> I agree, just like an engineer can design a house but in practicality 50% of what they draw has to be altered for real world use. Numbers on paper and what happens in real life is definitely 2 different things.


The good engineers would have better than 50% success rate, I'd hope. :hihi:

Anyway, I don't think that you'd have to worry about sheering the nails, the worry would be them pulling out of the wood. If anything at all needs to be done, you could just drive a single screw into the horizontal shelves to prevent the nails from pulling out. Now, if you want to hold an elephant up, than I'd go for the additional vertical struts. I doubt 40-50 gallons would be enough to warrant additional support, IMO, but there still might be that bit of doubt in my mind. Adding the wood legs in, (which wouldn't even need to be screwed in, technically, as long as they stay in place) would help me sleep better at night not having to worry about losing shrimp and moss if something did happen like a freak earthquake in RI haha.
but what do I know


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Your father may have a degree, but many of us have practical experience with wood and nails. Neither nails nor wood have will react to stress like load graded hardware.
> In theory, theory and reality are the same.
> In practice, you need support where Beeya marked. It's just four more pieces of 2x material for a huge increase in support and stability.
> 
> ...


It is getting fixed tonight, the issue is that the nails aren't exactly in straight to today I woke up with the actual shelf pulling out... Right now it is clamped and fine but it's getting more support. :icon_lol: I needed something tangible like this to make it happen.

He took care of the electricity as well. The box is mounted on the outside of the wood if that is what you're asking about. 



Diana said:


> Ditto all the comments above. Using nails is asking for trouble. Wood and nails do not last. Wood will weaken under this sort of strain. Nails split the wood, starting the splitting. Even if the wood does not crack, nails will pull out. At least screws will not pull out. Bolts are even better.
> Add the support as shown by the green lines. Use bolts or at least screws, never nails for a project where strength like this is required.
> Also, paint the wood, all over, top, bottom, ends... Exterior grade paint.


The nails are pulling out so there will be more support added to distribute the stress. I probably should've painted it but I didn't, that will be fine for the next couple years as long as I don't pour water on the stand. 

Thanks for the concern and continued hollering. It is appreciated even if it doesn't seem like it.

-Andrew


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

The nails are pulling out? I must be psychic or something


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

This is why a nailed joint can't withstand a shearing load very well. The nail doesn't shear, but it bends.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Thanks for the visual description Hoppy, I've looked at it a few times since you posted it. 

I now have some pretty heavy duty metal 90º Angle Iron type brackets giving support on all the joints and under them as well spanning all the pieces of wood and everything. So it should be solid now.

I need to get the other two tanks tomorrow and then get to making the glass tops. Last week a scored a piece of glass from a neighbor moving out of his house and will be using it for three, maybe four of the tanks.

Now to just decide what types of moss to grow:bounce:

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Two more tanks have been added. Short of the glass covers and the potential addition of powerheads or sponge filters to the tanks the rack is complete with hardware. Now just to add the flora.

Thanks for the advice everyone,
-Andrew


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## stewardwildcat (Feb 24, 2010)

Add screws. Nails are fine and dandy but if you really want it to be stable and hold get long wood screws.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Aren't you leaving for college in a couple of months? I'm guessing you're going to leave the tanks running while you're gone. (sorry if I missed where you talked about this already)


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

CL said:


> Aren't you leaving for college in a couple of months? I'm guessing you're going to leave the tanks running while you're gone. (sorry if I missed where you talked about this already)


Yes, I am leaving on the 16th of august probably. I will leave the rack filled up with moss before I go, have a large sale at Christmas, and have my brother (1 year younger) ship plants for me when I'm not home. 

I'm hoping the thing doesn't fill up with algae, although I'm going to be using daphnia to filter the water so that'll be really interesting.

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Updates a few weeks out:

I'm going to pursue using daphnia for filtration, this is something I read about a while back and there are many reports on how well daphnia work at algae control but fish generally get in the way. Without having fish in the aquariums it should work well. Depending on how well this works I may or may not have normal filtration as well.

I still haven't finished filling up all the tanks and sorting all the moss. I still have one "pond tank" with lots of interesting stuff I need to clean. This tank also has a strange bug in it similar to a pillbug that is aquatic and reproducing, I think it is a type of scud, but it hasn't eaten any of the plant matter, I think it may eat algae like shrimp. They're gray and not very attractive but are interesting. I can't decide if I want to try keeping them or not. 

I need to finish sorting all the moss and ket that all straight, out of 8 tanks only one is perfect with only one moss species. Many others right now have multiple species or a mixup like my flame moss tank which also is contaminated with spiky or taiwan moss, while I can sell this, I will have to sell it cheaply and then replace it with pure flame moss, which I have waiting in my 10g in my room.

The rack itself is fine now with extra supports added and nothing has changed with this. I still need to add glass tops to the tanks and fill two tanks up. I also need to buy SS mesh to keep the moss down so it does not float up and start growing emersed like my stringy moss has done. 

In other exciting news, my nano moss is growing great and I should be able to have some very limited quantities available within a month or so.

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Just wanted to update that all is well and with tons of extra support the stand is solid as ever. 

I'm taking care of a new filtration setup this week probably.

-Andrew


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## rushr (Jan 11, 2010)

Cool setup. Can't wait to see all the tanks full  

I'm hoping to have a basement fish room myself soon. Just need to have a yard sale and clear it out


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

rushr said:


> Cool setup. Can't wait to see all the tanks full
> 
> I'm hoping to have a basement fish room myself soon. Just need to have a yard sale and clear it out


They'll be all full soon. Progress is a bit slower than I want as always... but now being out of school I can work on it much more.:icon_smil

Have you checked out brian's tropicals? His basement is awesome!

-Andrew


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## rushr (Jan 11, 2010)

A Hill said:


> Have you checked out brian's tropicals? His basement is awesome!


I know, his basment is awesome. I love the water change system he has but I wonder what his water bill is like lol


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

rushr said:


> I know, his basment is awesome. I love the water change system he has but I wonder what his water bill is like lol


It probably isn't too bad... 



...compared to his electric bill!
:hihi:

-Andrew


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## rushr (Jan 11, 2010)

It's probably all worth it 

Btw, I like the site and think it's cool you're selling mosses and serving the college aquarists. Would have made everything easier for me to find small plants to obey the 10 gallon rule. I ended up with 3 tens and a 20, all jungle-fied with vals and swords. My hallmate had a 40 gallon, 2 pythons, and a cat in her room...those days were fun..but I digress.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

You digress... lol

Yeah, I'm actually going to spin the ten gallon rule (TGR) in my favor and try to start getting aquariums popular again, more emphasis on living artwork and aquascaping and simplicity though. Might link up some studies about stress relief and why the aquarium can be a good investment, and with growing plants after a few months selling the growth you can start pulling in some profit to spend on the weekends or whatever. I might try to hire classmates to grow plants for me! With that said, I still have a lot of work to do with my business plan, and I am also working on an information packet to accompany a possible talk on the subject (less than 30mins) I may bundle them and sell it online to boot. Eh, lets hope someone won't steal my idea... 

Short term plant wise will be moss. Then some stems. Maybe ferns and anubias and crypts eventually, but I'm really only good at selling moss for some reason when it comes to plants.

It will be fun, I've been working on stuff pretty nonstop since I got out of school. It is great to finally be able to just work on this. (well... I've got a few other projects I'm working on as well...)

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

*New picture of the rack all filled up... a bit messy these days*

So my dad just sent me a few pictures of what everything looks like right now. I ended up leaving before I managed to finish everything with the rack because my summer went insane, but here is how it looks now. 

This winter when I get back there will be lots of great stuff for sale. I now have a good amount of mini pelia to start growing as well as other mosses.

-Andrew


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## Armonious (Aug 16, 2010)

Good update. I hadn't seen this thread before, since it was before I joined. I just paged through it and it looks pretty great.

One thing that I was wondering is who is looking after your rack now that you're at ASU? I assume that it is your brother. How is that working out with you not being able to check up on it every day?


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Thanks! 

My dad is for the most part, my brother makes sure the water is still in the aquariums but he doesn't really want to get into it. Not being able to check up on it drives me crazy, especially because I have TONS of moss right now and I can't see it in person, package it myself, etc etc etc. As much of a pain the whole packing and portioning and sending it off can be, it is relaxing as well.

I mean, some of my tanks look a bad right now but the moss is growing so that is what matters. When I return home I think I'm going to take a page out of the Coral Frag tank book and get egg crate and PVC to keep the tanks a bit cleaner and improve water circulation around the moss.

Other tanks look really nice and healthy, well they all look healthy, but some look really good. That I miss as well. Part of the hobby I really enjoy is the growth and new growth and life the plants bring (as strange as that may sound) and pictures just don't do this justice. 

Just imagine, you finally execute on a plan you've had for years, then six months later you're 2800 miles away with no access and everything is going great!

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Figured I should post an update since I've been home from school.

The actual rack is as sturdy as a tank, but it will be moving this week to a new spot, I'm getting a moss room:icon_eek:

I've learned that mosses do not like cold temperatures. They will die and begin to fungus and grow very strangely. Apparantly the 50s and 40s are the point where this really occurs, unless they are a temperate moss. So some of my mosses don't care but I lost multiple tanks full of flame moss and fissidens and other expensive tropical mosses. They also grow extremely strangely and pale. On the plus side, somehow my MP grew like crazy and I should have a bit to sell in January. 

It was quite a challenging experiment overall and the next stage is about to begin. I've learned quite a bit and hope to share some photos and information in the next thread about the moss room. 

Yeah, I'm a little bit crazy.
-Andrew


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Hmm, that's odd. I've never had moss die from the cold. Maybe you didn't have enough water movement? Around here I've personally seen fissiden fontanus growing great in fast flowing, very cold streams that come right out of the sides of large hills/ almost mountains (cold enough that it hurts if you're in it for a few minutes).
MP definitely loves the cold water. What you bought from me I had growing in a tank right under the AC vent and next to a window that was regularly in the lower 60s during the summer and somewhere in the 50s during the winter (my thermometer didn't go down that low haha)
Either way I'm looking forward to pictures :thumbsp:


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

We thought it was nutrients and flow at first too, but we finally decided it must be the cold mixing with the tropical species, although fontanalis isn't a tropical... 

The MP actually grew like crazy, I just pulled a full cup of it out of a tank downstairs and put it into my 10g, and when I say full cup I mean a disposable plastic cup you might have at a party, full of not your favorite beverage, but one of my favorite plants! 

It was strange but we have photos basically showing that once November hit the only variable that changed was temperature, and the plants started getting worse and worse. But not exactly all dead, it was kinda like weird nutrient deficient growth looking colorless and brown but the nutrients in the water hadn't changed because we have been doing 50% WC every two weeks or so. 

So while I think it was a combination of things, I believe Temperature was the real kicker. So now comes my adventures with a moss room. Once again I won't be home to enjoy it much though, which is a bit sad.

Photos and more discussion in a new thread or maybe this one comes tomorrow. The new room has been cleared out and new rack construction is going to begin, this time the 10gs will be length wise and I may just use CF bulbs.

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

So everything went as planned and six of the eight tanks are now in its own moss room. Two will remain, that didn't have many issues and because the rack is too small for all of them. 

Should be interesting.
-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Yesterday I cleaned all the aquariums, draining and scrubbing them all. Then I added some substrate and filled them up with water. All the moss has been sorted, now I need to add light, filtration, and figure out what moss is what.

MP has been growing well, as has some others.

-Andrew


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