# start up, no co2 aiming for quite densely planted



## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

Joe ... how big is your tank. How much light will you have and what kind of plants will you be growing (fast or slow)? 
All these help determine whether DIY CO2 will suffice. 

I had a 30 gallon planted with lower light plants so i used a mix of DIY Co2 and Excel. I just did a minor upgrade to a 55g with fast growers, high light demanding plants with injected Co2 on a pH controller. 

Sorry i didnt think i could answer your question without more info.


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

That's ok i thought i added it but forgot, woops.

My tank is a 40 UK gallon / 180 litre, 100cm long x 40 x 50

I'm not sure what the lighting is, its not low light and doubt it high-lite.

Im planning on getting any plants i can get my hands on:icon_wink but it won't be anything special.
Thankyou very much:biggrin:


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## D.gilly (Sep 25, 2005)

what types of lights, what types of wattages, what type of substrate, are you dosing any ferts, ect questions that we need to know in order to asses your tank. Also im guessing you have an air pump ? 


> i already have normal bubbles bubbling through my aquarium would this give enough O2 and CO2?


No turn off the normal bubbles you are loosing co2 by having these bubbles. Also No this is not giving you co2 only taking it away.


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

Yes i have an air pump, what should i do about my pump then because i asked at my LFS and they said it would get a small amount of CO2, 
But im learning that only one shop (out of about 5) in my area will tell you the truth and not try to sell you everthing under the sun.

I'm just looking up the lighting it was meant to come with T5s but im not sure thy are (although im planning on getting some). i have 1/3 small pebbles and the rest is a substrate called 'Aquagrit' this is a "clay based gravel." 

I haven't yet got a fertilizer i will be getting one tomorrow.

Thankyou :¬)


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

I found what i think is the true wattage of the light.
'2 x 30W flourescent tubes'


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Read read and read...
Go Here First

then give us all your tank specs.


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

yey another site to read thoroughly through:hihi: 



Which bits should i be reading anything in specific or just everything:icon_wink 



Thankyou very much:biggrin:


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

LOL...sorry it just consolidates all the info and just makes it easier. 
You can just read the first category of each heading on the left. Its a quick read. Rex is to the point...no BS so to speak.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

Trust me, it's a much better idea to read. It is saving me a lot of time, effort, and money.


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

Trust me people i have tried to read and read for around 2 months but still they were probably just not very good sites, Rexs one seems good though.

Going to give up on trusting my LFSs'.

So its really not a good idea to be using an air pump??

tankyou:biggrin:


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

ok so i have read that, has helped quite abit, good link (now saved to my favorites):biggrin: 



well ok to sum up my tank



*Size-* 101cm x 41cm x 50cm

*Volume-* 180 litres or 40 uk gallons

*Lighting-* 2x 30w flourescent tubes

*CO2-* none ATM

*Fish-* 5 glowlights ATM

*Plants-* very few (3 of different types) were not named at shop 

*Substrate-* 1/3 small pebbles 2/3 Aquagrit

*Fertilizer-* none ATM



Currently don't have a tester as my LFS never have them in:icon_frow 



> then give us all your tank specs.


Done that... I think?



Sorry if i'm being a pain:icon_wink 



Thanks guys :¬) These fish are a PITA lol


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Not a pain at all...don't be silly. So you are going for no CO2, and heavily planted...

I guess the first place to start here is the bulbs. 2 X 30 Watt seems good, but one thing we need to find out here....are they the stock bulbs that came with the fixture? If so, then they will be adequate for some really hardy low light plants, but thats about it. You need to get bulbs that have a good K rating (you should have seen this on Rex's site...) You need a bulb that is in a range of 5000 to 10000K. Most places sell bulbs that are 5000 or 6500.

Getting bulbs that have this range, plus around the wattage you specified will get you going well.

Next...figure out what plants you would like...this is the fun part. How about you take some pictures of what you have that you can't ID so we can figure out where to go from there. Be mindful of a few things here...what do you want the tank to look like??? Are you using driftwood? Rocks? these are all important here since these will more than likely go in the tank before you "heavily plant".

Once you have a plant list, I highly reccomend some type of fertilization routine. If you have undemanding plants, then no need to upgrade the substrate....some root tab supplements will do the job.

How's that?? I did this all in one breath...lol.

BTW...test kits are not always needed, but i always reccomend the basics...Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH.


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

Well to start thingys off,

*Lights*
Yer they came with the tank.

have just taken photos. What time is it where you are?

Yep i read about that bit "These are not good bulbs for planted tanks. The bulbs that you want for planted tanks should be in the 5000k-10,000k " just abit of proof thier:icon_wink,

*Plants*
ok well i would love every plant under the sun but the ones that appeal to me are...
Java moss, 
Dwarf hair grass,
melon sword
some of the swords look good


im not to sure really
any suggestions?

Those test kits sound good enough to me.

thankyou very very very much you and fishscale are very helpful:biggrin:


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

roud: Those plants look ok. Hair grass may fight you a bit, but it can do ok with enough light. It grows really really really slow, so that is what i call a "patience plant". Don't touch it, don't look at it, just let it do its thing...lol. planting it can be a pain too.

So plant list looks good...there is an excellent plant database here that was just overhauled. Alot of hardcore members took a lot of time to do this so...

Give them props and give it a gander!

Your looking for low light easy to moderate care plants. there are alot...I reccomend sifting through them, printing them out as you see them...then lay them all out on a table (you may even ID some of the plants you have). Then pick and choose... If you don't trust your lfs then use the "swap and shop" forum here. You can get some outstanding stuff from some experienced members here with good quality stuff. Just be sure to read through the rules!! Heed the warnings as well. This is a wonderful place and most certainly has quality members...but you NEVER KNOW.

Couple of suggestions...any moss is great for beginners. almost impossible to kill and can look really cool once it grows in (once again patience here...it will take some time, but the benefits of a nice bloomed moss rock or mos on driftwood looks so sweet!!)

Anubias...love em. Easy and they really don't need anything but to be tied down to a rock or driftwood.

Cabomba, Java fern, Ludwigia (some of these), hornwort, etc. The list is endless...Don't rush this...HAVE FUN, research, and then GIVER ER A GO!!! The worst you can do is ruin a few plants (<---Did I just write that...lol:icon_frow).


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

UH-OH how do i post images?
i have them on my computer and its asking me for an internet address!!

so how do i do this (first time) posting images,

yer i was looking on that site but could not find my plants may have found one similar.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

i edited my last post btw...so give it a reread, sorry.

i think you just "Go Advanced" then manage attachements on bottom. Has to be certain file sizes and such.


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

> You may not post attachments


so yes i will try to work out the best planted scheme:biggrin:.

java fern is quite popular (i think).

Thankyou you have been extremerlordinarily helpful.roud:


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

> No turn off the normal bubbles you are loosing co2 by having these bubbles. Also No this is not giving you co2 only taking it away


is he right?


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Well yea. Its not necesarily the O2 being injected, but the turbulence to the surface that is outgasing the CO2 (or whatever CO2 you do have). there is a time and a place for air bubblers. For you, I am going to reccomend that you put it aside for now...at least in this tank:wink:


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

bugger spent £40 on that. lol
oh well its whats best for my fish and plant (expensive Basta*ds:hihi


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## D.gilly (Sep 25, 2005)

Also are the lights T5 ? T5 have a higher output and emit more light as do power compacts. ie. 1.5 watts of T5 is much different from 1.5 of T12. As for your substrate you should be fine some plants like swords need alot of root fertlizer so root tabs are a good idea. jas for co2 1.5 is low enough that you should be fine. anubias plants work well so does java moss. Java fern works great too. There are many places that list low light plants so you should have no problem finding them.


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

No they aren't T5s':icon_frow they are 2x30w tubes, hoping to upgrade them soon.

Still unsure of what CO2 method to go for then (i.e DIY-CO2 or Excel or maybe both?)

Thankyou Gilly.


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## D.gilly (Sep 25, 2005)

excel would work but i doubt co2 is really nessisary with thoes wattages its more of a benifet. I think excel would be your best bet though mabey do half the reccomended dosing.


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## joe the pleco (Jul 16, 2007)

I will try execl then:biggrin:
thankyou :¬)


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## CrazyMidwesterner (Oct 19, 2006)

Know that excel will not go well with certain plants like most vals, and Egeria Densa. A good no nonsense place to read up is www.barrreport.com. 

You stated that you have been reading for months. I also read for months when I started and everything was clear as mud. Almost everyone had their own opinions and many conflicted. I decided to choose one method and run with it and that was Toms. I can't follow it to a T since I am on a Tight hobby budget but I have been happy with the results. Tom seems to back his hypothesis up with tests which I like. Give it a shot. Not saying it's right or wrong but it has worked for me.


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## masYPSI (Aug 10, 2006)

One thing too remember is that most low-light plants are very very slow growing. So be patient. Also when starting a new tank its best to have a whole lot of fast growing plants. Shoot for around 3 stems per gallon. Most of those will be stem plants. The fast growing plants will help prevent an algae out-brake. When every thing has grown in you can start replacing plants with the ones you want.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

Ok, the "normal bubbles" you are talking about is air. Air like the stuff all around you, being pumped by the air pump, into the tank. There is a difference between that and the CO2 injection in several ways:

1. CO2 injection usually has some way of being dissolved into the water. This means a reactor or a diffuser. I have not seen anyone dissolving air into water with a reactor or a diffuser.
2. Your air bubbles break the surface and cause whatever CO2 in the water to go into the air. However, if you are not injecting CO2, then you are also putting CO2 back into the water. Therefore, you are both releasing and taking in CO2 simultaneously, giving you an equilibrium of around 3 ppm CO2. 

If you inject CO2 directly into the tank and have it come out in large bubbles like your normal air bubble wand, it won't really do anything either. That is why you need a reactor or a diffuser.


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## Flopster843 (Aug 21, 2007)

fishscale said:


> If you inject CO2 directly into the tank and have it come out in large bubbles like your normal air bubble wand, it won't really do anything either. That is why you need a reactor or a diffuser.


What if you injected normal breathing air into a small reactor or a diffuser. Similar to the one here. A small enough amount that wouldn't agitate the surface. Wouldn't that theoretically add O2 and CO2 at the same time? I know it wouldn't be as much as a dedicated CO2 system, but it should help for the people without one.


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