# Help me with AR mini, what's happening, toxicity?



## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Hello all,

I need some assistance with pinpointing what's going on with my AR. First off let me say I'm still a noob at dosing and spotting signs of toxicities and deficiencies. So the pick below is of my AR mini which has been in the tank from the start which has been about 3 months. It grows but as you can see there are really darks portions to some of the leaves that almost looks burnt. Also some of the new growth comes out crinkled and deformed. Any help would be appreciated.

Water parameters are as follows 

Tank - 40B
Ph- 6.8 degassed, 6.0 with co2 
Gh - 6
Kh - 6
No3 - 40ppm 
Po4 - 5ppm (have a hard time with test as I'm always unsure of the color)
EI dosing:
Kno3 - 1/4tsp 3x week
Po4 - 1/16tsp 3x week
K2so4 - 1/16tsp 3x week
Csm+b - 1/16tsp 3x week


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## Mathman (Apr 5, 2009)

Are other plants showing the same issue?

AR mini for some reason i have found it to be very sensitive to an over abundance of micros in the water column.

From the picture, it appears that most if not all the "damage" is on the new leaves. Hence, we can narrow it down to an immobile nutrient deficiency.

Because the new leaves appear to be stunt and/or twisting this is an indication of either calcium and/or boron (planted CSM+B) deficiency.

You mentioned that your tank's water has a general hardness of 6 degrees.

The GH results don't specified the concentrations for both Ca (Calcium) and Mg (magnesium).

To get a better idea, you could purchase a Ca kit and find out what's the concentration for Ca and using your GH reading, you can determine each Ca and Mg level.

Or, you could add enough of GH booster to eliminate any deficiency of Ca and/or Mg.

You may be adding too much micros but then again, other plants may do bad if this is decreased.

Again, from my personal experience, ar mini, is one of those plants that doesn't like high micro levels.

Hopefully other folks can chime in.

I may also be wrong with some of the information I shared...I'm simply giving you my understanding of what could be the issue. 





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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Mathman said:


> Are other plants showing the same issue?
> 
> AR mini for some reason i have found it to be very sensitive to an over abundance of micros in the water column.
> 
> ...


That's one thing I forgot in the original post, is that I started adding gh booster over a month ago. Most of the other plants do great. I've had issues with rotala stunting and have since removed the plants. Some of my ludwigia do have some twisted leaves. This week I decided to reduce my micros and cut it in half. When doing this I noticed the ludwigia red perk up. I don't have enough experience yet with fertilizers so I might just need to play around with it, I don't know.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Adding the EI level fert's with GH booster, we can rule out nutrient deficiency. However it does look like the AR in the pic is both crowded and shaded, two things it doesn't like. Some better light and room to breath might show some improvement.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

LRJ said:


> Adding the EI level fert's with GH booster, we can rule out nutrient deficiency. However it does look like the AR in the pic is both crowded and shaded, two things it doesn't like. Some better light and room to breath might show some improvement.


It gets plenty of light. I turned the front light off to take the picture because of the glare.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

I wasn't saying that based on the photo not appearing bright (really tough to say anything about light levels from a photo), but on the fact that the AR is cramped and has plants which appear to be overhanging it (again, sort of tough to tell from the pic). If it is in fact getting good direct light, the crowding could still be an issue. Something to think about, in addition to the more conservative micro dose.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Certainly looks like a toxicity to me. Based on the given info, about the only deficiency it could be is CO2. LRJ has a good point, it is definitely too crowded. Plants compete for co2 just like nutrients. Give some room between plant groups and make sure the area gets adequate flow.

Also looks like it's due for a good trim. AR needs aggressive pruning. It is a tough plant, you can be merciless with it and it will come right back. I'd pinch all those bad leaves off, whole tops, whatever, all of it. None of that damage is going to correct itself, only new growth will tell the tale.

Maybe even uproot and separate the good plants from the bad ones. Probably some baby sprouts underneath all that still in good shape. Toss all the bad and replant the good ones, spreading them out a little.

Regarding toxicity, you are dosing micros at .1 ppm Fe...approximately? That is perfectly favorable for lots of folks, but it would definitely be too much for my tanks. Dont ask me why.

If the Ludwigia perked up when you reduced micros, that for me would be a concrete sign I was dosing too much. What I would do is a couple back to back 70-80% water changes, two days in a row with no dosing, then skip a couple doses of micros, then start back around 1/4-1/3 or so previous levels.

You'll know right away if its a toxicity because there'll be an immediate positive response after just a few days. If nothing happens after a week, or things get worse, then you can rule toxicity out and move on to something else.

Another thing, are you measuring out the csmb in 1/16 tsp doses? Be better to mix up a solution something like 500ml/5ml doses. Because csmb is comprised of several different things, and the chances of getting everything in the right proportion using such small amounts is slim. It is really made for hydroponics to treat 100s or 1000s of gallons at a time.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Certainly looks like a toxicity to me. Based on the given info, about the only deficiency it could be is CO2. LRJ has a good point, it is definitely too crowded. Plants compete for co2 just like nutrients. Give some room between plant groups and make sure the area gets adequate flow.
> 
> Also looks like it's due for a good trim. AR needs aggressive pruning. It is a tough plant, you can be merciless with it and it will come right back. I'd pinch all those bad leaves off, whole tops, whatever, all of it. None of that damage is going to correct itself, only new growth will tell the tale.
> 
> ...


Well tomorrow is maintenance day, so I will hack down the AR and replant. I do have some in a low tank tank that looks great I can steal some from. 

Regarding the back to back water changes. What do you think about just doing my 50 tomorrow and just not dosing micros at all this week?
It's hard on my fish if I do greater than 50% wc's do to the co2 content coming out of the tap. And yes I'm measuring all my doses daily.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nlewis said:


> Regarding the back to back water changes. What do you think about just doing my 50 tomorrow and just not dosing micros at all this week?
> It's hard on my fish if I do greater than 50% wc's do to the co2 content coming out of the tap. And yes I'm measuring all my doses daily.


That'll work too, it just wouldnt reset the nutrient levels as well as two large back to backs. But you may not even need to do this.

It is starting to sound like more of a CO2/flow issue. If your fish gas that easy, then you need to find ways to get more oxygen in the tank. Doing so will let the livestock to be comfortable at much higher CO2 levels. It is also good for plants and bacteria and the whole system. Increase circulation and get more surface agitation. Maybe add a small powerhead like the Koralia 240 positioned near the surface. 

.8 PH drop isnt much to begin with. Better to shoot for a full point at the very least.

The combination of being crowded, with poor flow, and low CO2 to begin will equal a very unhappy plant(s).

You may be dosing too much micros, but until the CO2 gets right it's going to be like playing whack-a-mole no matter what you do. My advice is to fix the CO2 first.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

burr740 said:


> That'll work too, it just wouldnt reset the nutrient levels as well as two large back to backs. But you may not even need to do this.
> 
> It is starting to sound like more of a CO2/flow issue. If your fish gas that easy, then you need to find ways to get more oxygen in the tank. Doing so will let the livestock to be comfortable at much higher CO2 levels. It is also good for plants and bacteria and the whole system. Increase circulation and get more surface agitation. Maybe add a small powerhead like the Koralia 240 positioned near the surface.
> 
> ...


Short of buying a power head, do you think if I left my skimmer on all the time would this to the same thing?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

bound to help, what kind of skimmer?


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## Mathman (Apr 5, 2009)

Point the outlet of your filter slightly towards the surface and run the skimmer...that'll create more than enough surface movement.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

burr740 said:


> bound to help, what kind of skimmer?


Eheim 350

Alright, I did my Sunday maintenance and did a major trim. I pulled all the AR and got out as many good plantlets that I could. I bumped the co2 up but for right now I'm going to leave the flow alone. I feel the flow is good, I have a 2217 running and I can see the flow all throughout the tank. So my plan of action this week, is not dosing micros and see what happens. I could order a 500ml dosing bottle if someone could give me some aid as in the measurement of csmb to make up the solution. Oh, I also have about 25 stems of blyxa I pulled out and don't know what to do with.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

This is a good calculator for dosing amounts. It will tell you what to mix in a solution for a certain ppm - Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator

Just plug in your values and additional boxes will appear. I try to calculate for actual water, not tank size.

"DIY" means mixing your own. "Pre-mixed" means ready made products like Flourish, etc.

When the box "I am calculating for" appears -> select "dose to reach a target" Then enter whatever ppm you want the dose to be.

Play around with it some. It's not as complicated as it looks the first time you see it.


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

Do you use and kind of drop checker? PH at 6.0 with a KH around 6 would yeild 180ppm CO2 (target should be 30ppm;ish).
Doubt anything would survive in those levels. Must have something else affecting your PH in a rather drastic way?

Also looking at rotala butterfly you seem to underdose CSM+B somewhat already for a 40G you should be adding 1/8 tsp + 1/16 tsp + 1/32 tsp of CSMB every other day. Though following rotalas calcs you will always overdose quite much, not sure why it is this way though.


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## Lonestarbandit (Feb 7, 2013)

I have an AR mini question as well. If I might piggyback.
Leaves all ate through with holes and stunted growth.
Slowly recovering with dosing various Seachem ferts.
But would anyone know what WAS wrong?

Thanks!


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Lonestarbandit said:


> I have an AR mini question as well. If I might piggyback.
> Leaves all ate through with holes and stunted growth.
> Slowly recovering with dosing various Seachem ferts.
> But would anyone know what WAS wrong?
> ...


Post some pictures. From what I know holes in leaves would tend to be a potassium deficiency. 



burr740 said:


> This is a good calculator for dosing amounts. It will tell you what to mix in a solution for a certain ppm - Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator
> 
> Just plug in your values and additional boxes will appear. I try to calculate for actual water, not tank size.
> 
> ...


I picked up a gram scale and a 50ml bottle to make the csmb solution. the tank is a 40B but has a lot of substrate so I went with 33 gallons. Do these numbers seem correct? My concern is the note at the bottom regarding adjusting Fe. I have iron chelate 10% DTPA, but how much would I add. I'm only assuming that the notation is hinting at adding more Fe.


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## Lonestarbandit (Feb 7, 2013)

I only started with someone else's bits.
I never had a full plant and I know the bits look terrible but....









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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nlewis said:


> I picked up a gram scale and a 50ml bottle to make the csmb solution. the tank is a 40B but has a lot of substrate so I went with 33 gallons. Do these numbers seem correct? My concern is the note at the bottom regarding adjusting Fe. I have iron chelate 10% DTPA, but how much would I add. I'm only assuming that the notation is hinting at adding more Fe.


Gallons sound about right, it's nothing critical. Not sure I understand the Fe question.

Csmb is dosed using Fe as the proxy. When someone says they dose csmb at .1 ppm (or whatever) they are talking about .1 ppm of Fe.

So take that into consideration when adding additional Fe.

In the drop down menu where you select the compounds (csmb, KNO3, etc) on down the list you can also find dtpa 10%. Calculate for "dose to reach a target" and enter whatever ppm you want.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Gallons sound about right, it's nothing critical. Not sure I understand the Fe question.
> 
> Csmb is dosed using Fe as the proxy. When someone says they dose csmb at .1 ppm (or whatever) they are talking about .1 ppm of Fe.
> 
> ...


My fault, I forgot to add the screen shot.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Oh haha.

Well on the last page we estimated that you are currently dosing csmb @ .1 ppm Fe. So unless you want to dose 5x more than you currently are.....where it says "I am calculating for" change Estimative index to "dose to reach a target." (click the drop down arrow)

If you have decided to cut down micros, then try .01 or .02 ppm. You may not even need the extra dtpa, but if you want you could do about the same amount of that, or less. It's probably a good idea because when cutting traces this low, a deficiency of Fe can soon rear it ugly head. That is about what I dose for csmb and do find that extra Fe is needed.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Oh haha.
> 
> Well on the last page we estimated that you are currently dosing csmb @ .1 ppm Fe. So unless you want to dose 5x more than you currently are.....where it says "I am calculating for" change Estimative index to "dose to reach a target." (click the drop down arrow)
> 
> If you have decided to cut down micros, then try .01 or .02 ppm. You may not even need the extra dtpa, but if you want you could do about the same amount of that, or less. It's probably a good idea because when cutting traces this low, a deficiency of Fe can soon rear it ugly head. That is about what I dose for csmb and do find that extra Fe is needed.


What should my normal full target be? I'd rather make the solution for the full EI dose just in case my micros are not my issue. If they are I can still adjust my dose accordingly using the same solution.

Bump:


Lonestarbandit said:


> I only started with someone else's bits.
> I never had a full plant and I know the bits look terrible but....
> 
> 
> ...


Is it getting enough light? I have some in a 20g that grows fine with no co2 or ferts. But for whatever reason I have issues with it in the high tech tank.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nlewis said:


> What should my normal full target be? I'd rather make the solution for the full EI dose just in case my micros are not my issue. If they are I can still adjust my dose accordingly using the same solution.


I would just do what you are doing now, csmb @ .1 ppm Fe. Full EI is .5 ppm.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

burr740 said:


> I would just do what you are doing now, csmb @ .1 ppm Fe. Full EI is .5 ppm.


Wow, I didn't realize I was dosing a fifth of the dose I was supposed to. When I started this adventure and looked up the EI schedule for my tank, the 1/16 tsp is what I found. Maybe my water has some of micros I need already. I have well water so I can't search the water company and see what's in it and I'm not sure where I could get it tested. By the way I was able to get the ph down to 5.7 and will test again later.


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## Lonestarbandit (Feb 7, 2013)

Nlewis said:


> What should my normal full target be? I'd rather make the solution for the full EI dose just in case my micros are not my issue. If they are I can still adjust my dose accordingly using the same solution.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> Is it getting enough light? I have some in a 20g that grows fine with no co2 or ferts. But for whatever reason I have issues with it in the high tech tank.


Yes it gets enough. As you see the newest top leaves are in much better shape.
I now have root tabs and dose Excel and Flourish.
Explains why things are improving.
I just wondered what lack of causes holes 
For future reference.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

I definitely confused now looking at this dosing calculator. According to the calculator for EI my ppm target is 7.5. This is now causing me to think I'm dosing everything wrong.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

EI calls for

7.5 NO3
1.3 PO4
7.5 K (This is total K, KNO3 and KH2PO4 provides a little over 5 ppm when dosed for the above EI amount)
and
.5 CSMB using Fe as proxy - For some this amount is OK, but many people find it is too much and causes problems. That is why so many are using less micros these days. 


For example, in my 75 with 120 PAR and tons of high light stems, I dose somewhere around .015 csmb + .01 dtpa + and .01 Fe gluconate. (notice that is .015, not .15 - big difference) So Im at the opposite end of the spectrum for micros. This wouldnt be enough for some people, but for whatever reason, about right for me. Macros, I dose a bit more than EI calls for: 9 / 2.5 / 7 - N,P,K - or thereabouts. 

Macros are fine just so long as there is plenty. Micros you'll just have to try different amounts and see what is best. It all boils down to observing what your plants like and adjusting accordingly. Any "official" system is merely a guideline from which to begin. Full EI micros may be good for you. It wont take long to find out. 


** Edit - If you want to know what EI calls for, leave the calculator on default, and just select a compound, it will give you the EI dose. See beside "I am calculating for" by default is set to EI. You have to change it by clicking the drop down arrow if you want to calculate for something else, like PPS Pro, or a specific ppm, etc.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

burr740 said:


> EI calls for
> 
> 7.5 NO3
> 1.3 PO4
> ...


Well looking through all this, I think I want to make up some solutions as it just seems easier. I'll need to pick up more 500ml bottles. So with what you said before if I want to make a macro solution and add k2so4 I can target 9 right? This would put me at let's say at a target of
7.5 kno3 and 1.5 of k2so4? Also would you recommend a solution for gh booster? The calculator doesn't give you a spot to input your dgh in order to find out the dosing amount, it just sets a target at 5dgh. Currently I add 1 tsp go gh booster on water change day.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

7.5ppm is the usual EI total for K per dose. It wont hurt anything to dose 9, but probably isnt necessary.

KNO3 @ 7.5 ppm dosent add 7.5 ppm of potassium, so 1.5 would be incorrect

Here is the calculation for KNO3. The column on the right shows all the nutrients that will be added with the calculated compound.

A 7.5 ppm dose adds 4.73 ppm of K. The calculation for KH2PO4 (not shown) is about .5 ppm. The sum of those two is how much K you'll be getting without any additional, rougly 5.25 ppm. So for EI you'd add another 2.25 ppm of K2SO4.


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

Hm comparing Rotalas calculator I seem to get different results compared to the calculator used at the TNC website (https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/aquarium/calculators/ei_calculator/).
Especially for the TNC trace mix. Never noticed this before. Also the mixes given for KH2PO4 at the TNC calculator are twice as high as the rotala one. KNO3 is aprox 10% higher as well, wonder why? :S

As a side note, the target values you get at the rotala calculator are reached earliest after 30+ days of dosing, when the accumulation has risen to the "final" levels, which you then keep in check with WCs. Doing larger WCs will knock you back a bit in the PPMs and vice versa.
Doing to big WCs all the time for example will end up with you never reaching the "correct" E.I levels.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

burr740 said:


> 7.5ppm is the usual EI total for K per dose. It wont hurt anything to dose 9, but probably isnt necessary.
> 
> KNO3 @ 7.5 ppm dosent add 7.5 ppm of potassium, so 1.5 would be incorrect
> 
> ...


Update: New growth from the AR is coming in nice and pink and not deformed. Not sure whether this is due to the bump in co2 or the lack of micro dosing. If I were to guess I'd say it was the micros. 

I want to create the macro solution today. Do these numbers look correct?

Based on:

33G tank
500ml dosing bottle
5ml dosing
Kno3 - target 7.5ppm, 152.76 grams
Kh2po4 - target 1.3ppm, 29.78 grams
K2so4 - target 2.25ppm, 62.64 grams


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Numbers are correct, But you're right at the limit for that amount of K being soluble in 500 ml of water.

It would be better to cut those totals in half, and dose 10 ml instead of 5 ml. Using less will dissolve more thoroughly.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Numbers are correct, But you're right at the limit for that amount of K being soluble in 500 ml of water.
> 
> It would be better to cut those totals in half, and dose 10 ml instead of 5 ml. Using less will dissolve more thoroughly.


Ok that works. One more thing I forgot, do I need to use distilled water or is my well water ok?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I just use tap, not sure if that is best or not. I believe well water should be fine.

Also good to add 5-10 ml of distilled white vinegar, or apple cider vinegar to the micro mix. This will lower the PH and help keep the various chelates intact. Also helps to prevent mold. Add the vinegar to the water first, shake a little, then add the csmb, etc


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

burr740 said:


> I just use tap, not sure if that is best or not.
> 
> Also good to add 5-10 ml of distilled white vinegar, or apple cider vinegar to the micro mix. This will lower the PH and help keep the various chelates intact. Also helps to prevent mold. Add the vinegar to the water first, shake a little, then add the csmb, etc


I haven't got to that one yet as I haven't purchased another 500ml bottle. I also need to figure that one out and what ppm to target, obliviously it needs to be quite less than what I've been dosing. 

I'd also like to get a solution going for my gh booster. For whatever reason it's such a pain to get it to dissolve.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I usually just dump the GH in dry and not worry about it.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Update: New growth from the AR is still doing well. Since using the macro solution last weekend and using it this week, I've been hit with a lot of algae. All of a sudden I've got green spot, green dust and diatoms. I feel like with the solution I may not be getting the proper amounts of each fert. To me it looked like I was low on nitrogen as a few plants like ludwigia and corymbosa started turning a deep red.


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

My AR looked exactly like this before I cut my micro dosing to 0.02 ppm iron as proxy. I even had to re-evaluate the lesser micro nutrient ratios to undo alot of this kind of damage.

EDIT: Also, notice how the Blyxia and hair grass are doing ok. I've found monocot plants (grass-like) tolerate micro doses much higher.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Positron said:


> My AR looked exactly like this before I cut my micro dosing to 0.02 ppm iron as proxy. I even had to re-evaluate the lesser micro nutrient ratios to undo alot of this kind of damage.
> 
> EDIT: Also, notice how the Blyxia and hair grass are doing ok. I've found monocot plants (grass-like) tolerate micro doses much higher.


Yeah I noticed, my blyxa grows out of control. I started back with micros this week and decreased it by half, will see how it goes. I feel like this week since using the macro solution and no micros the plants have just stopped growing.


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## vinizuh (Sep 17, 2014)

Wow... just wow, after reading these toxicity threads my AR is finally growing normal new leaves instead deformed twisted ugly brittle ones. My hygrophilia sperma is throwing out 4-5 new leaves a day and new shoots everywhere!. My hygrophila pinnatifida actually has runners that grow instead of sit there like they are stuck in a time machine! My water sprite is growing 2" a day! my water wisteria is growing 2" a day! my montecarlo carpet is finally starting to spread and has very nice broad leaves instead of tiny stunted leaves. Pretty much all plants have bounced back and is growing like mad in my 90g high tech. All because i stopped dosing csm+b a few weeks ago... i struggled for months trying to figure this out, bumping my co2 to who knows what ppm, my drop checker was bright yellow... and all i had to do was stop dosing traces... I ordered L. grandulosa again because it thought it was in my "can't grow list" but now i think i can grow anything.

I am officially a firm believer of trace toxicity. It will throw you off and make you think you have other multiple types of deficiencies and put you in a never ending loop as long as you are still dosing traces. I overdosed so bad some of my amazon swords melted from the lower stem! look like it was burnt. My L. repens had burnt spots on the leaves and was dropping leaves everyday. All fixed now because of these toxicity threads!... so thanks guys. I can finally relax and enjoy the hobby again!!


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

vinizuh said:


> Wow... just wow, after reading these toxicity threads my AR is finally growing normal new leaves instead deformed twisted ugly brittle ones. My hygrophilia sperma is throwing out 4-5 new leaves a day and new shoots everywhere!. My hygrophila pinnatifida actually has runners that grow instead of sit there like they are stuck in a time machine! My water sprite is growing 2" a day! my water wisteria is growing 2" a day! my montecarlo carpet is finally starting to spread and has very nice broad leaves instead of tiny stunted leaves. Pretty much all plants have bounced back and is growing like mad in my 90g high tech. All because i stopped dosing csm+b a few weeks ago... i struggled for months trying to figure this out, bumping my co2 to who knows what ppm, my drop checker was bright yellow... and all i had to do was stop dosing traces... I ordered L. grandulosa again because it thought it was in my "can't grow list" but now i think i can grow anything.
> 
> I am officially a firm believer of trace toxicity. It will throw you off and make you think you have other multiple types of deficiencies and put you in a never ending loop as long as you are still dosing traces. I overdosed so bad some of my amazon swords melted from the lower stem! look like it was burnt. My L. repens had burnt spots on the leaves and was dropping leaves everyday. All fixed now because of these toxicity threads!... so thanks guys. I can finally relax and enjoy the hobby again!!


am glad we were able to help you and i hope you post some before and after pictures, i would love to collect them in case we have another thread or questions regarding trace/fe toxicity. am not sure if you had any reduction in algae growth after trace toxicity no longer existed, you should see less to no BBA at all if you ever had it, some reduction in GDA as well even though its more related to NPK, water should look much more clear as well.

if i tell you my story about trace toxicity, you will need popcorn :laugh2:


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Glad to here it as well. My tank haven't done so hot since reducing my micros. The AR is doing much better, but seems a lot of other plants have taken a step back. Most of my other plants seem to be in limbo and just not growing.


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## Mathman (Apr 5, 2009)

burr740 said:


> For example, in my 75 with 120 PAR and tons of high light stems, I dose somewhere around .015 csmb + .01 dtpa + and .01 Fe gluconate. (notice that is .015, not .15 - big difference) So Im at the opposite end of the spectrum for micros. This wouldnt be enough for some people, but for whatever reason, about right for me. Macros, I dose a bit more than EI calls for: 9 / 2.5 / 7 - N,P,K - or thereabouts.




What's up Burr,

Wow! You are dosing a total of .035 ppm of Fe 3x a week, for a total of .105 ppm Fe for the entire week...and no issues under high light?

Plants are not showing any signs of Fe deficiency?



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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Mathman said:


> What's up Burr,
> 
> Wow! You are dosing a total of .035 ppm of Fe 3x a week, for a total of .105 ppm Fe for the entire week...and no issues under high light?
> 
> Plants are not showing any signs of Fe deficiency?


Actually less than that lately, .0125 csmb and .0125 dtpa. Occasionally add .01 gluc, once or twice a week, usually towards the end of the dosing cycle if anything starts looking pale.

I do find it necessary to keep a close eye on Fe deficiency. Still working out the optimum amounts of everything. For whatever reason, in my tanks (all 4 of them) there exists a fine line between too much and not enough.

In the last few pages of my journal there are some pics at various doses scattered about.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Nlewis said:


> Yeah I noticed, my blyxa grows out of control. I started back with micros this week and decreased it by half, will see how it goes. I feel like this week since using the macro solution and no micros the plants have just stopped growing.


A possible explanation is that one of the essential metals ran out or ran low relative to the other metals. This will result in stunting. I'm waiting for someone to get back to me so that I have a quantifiable reason to support this idea. If it turns out to be true, then that would explain why a lot of people report the same phenomenon, myself included. Only once the other metals decrease enough to where it no longer suppresses this metal will growth resume normally. But continually adding enough micros just to supply enough of the deficient metal is counterproductive for the toxicity issues and the induced deficiency issue. A balanced trace fertilizer or a custom fertilizer for your specific water parameters is needed.

There is also another phenomenon that occurs when plants are exposed to toxic concentration of heavy metals that may be partly responsible. Under toxic conditions, plants may develop excessive phytochelatins, it's its own version of chelates. These chelates will bind with excess metals which reduces there potential for toxicity. However, once the heavy metal concentrations reduce, the excess PCs may actually prevent uptake or utilization of the available metals thereby causing deficiencies. Only time will allow the plants to adapt to the lower concentrations by reducing the amount of PCs produced.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> A possible explanation is that one of the essential metals ran out or ran low relative to the other metals. This will result in stunting. I'm waiting for someone to get back to me so that I have a quantifiable reason to support this idea. If it turns out to be true, then that would explain why a lot of people report the same phenomenon, myself included. Only once the other metals decrease enough to where it no longer suppresses this metal will growth resume normally. But continually adding enough micros just to supply enough of the deficient metal is counterproductive for the toxicity issues and the induced deficiency issue. A balanced trace fertilizer or a custom fertilizer for your specific water parameters is needed.
> 
> There is also another phenomenon that occurs when plants are exposed to toxic concentration of heavy metals that may be partly responsible. Under toxic conditions, plants may develop excessive phytochelatins, it's its own version of chelates. These chelates will bind with excess metals which reduces there potential for toxicity. However, once the heavy metal concentrations reduce, the excess PCs may actually prevent uptake or utilization of the available metals thereby causing deficiencies. Only time will allow the plants to adapt to the lower concentrations by reducing the amount of PCs produced.


Well there's defiantly some stunting going on. I notice it most in my bacopa and the tips of the blyxa are withering away. I picked up some aromatica and pogo erectus from @burr740, and at the time I told him I wasn't worried about the sizes of plants I was getting because everything in my tank was growing bonkers. This was at the same time I stopped dosing micros. These plants at this point are just maintaining and are taking a step back I believe due to the algae issues that have popped up since I threw the curve ball at the system. Yesterday I went to rub the diatoms off the aromatica and the whole top broke off as soon as I touched it. At this point I'm not sure whether to wait it out or bump the micros back up and just live with what my AR looks like. 

I'm considering switching over to using Flourish instead of the csmb. I know with talks with Burr he stated that csmb was really meant for bigger applications, and when you look at it you can definitely see the different minerals. So with that I can see why it's probably not ideal as you are probably getting more of one thing and less of the others. What do you all think, would Flourish be better? I considered trying to mix a solution, but still it's definitely not going to be more precise than dry dosing.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I went back to Flourish comp for a while, didnt see any improvement. If anything the minor issues I was trying to correct got worse. 

Two things I dont like about it. The fe is gluconate, so it's not going to stick around very long unless you have uber soft water. It also has a lot less of the other micro nutrients relative to Fe than csmb.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

burr740 said:


> I went back to Flourish comp for a while, didnt see any improvement. If anything the minor issues I was trying to correct got worse.
> 
> Two things I dont like about it. The fe is gluconate, so it's not going to stick around very long unless you have uber soft water. It also has a lot less of the other micro nutrients relative to Fe than csmb.


Oh I totally forgot, there is a little glimmer of hope. I saw yesterday that there were new sprouts coming off of the aromatica. So for me it looks as if the mother plants aren't going to make it, but it's propagating new plants which I would assume would be adjusted to its new habitat. Not sure if you can see it in the photo. Also notice the tops of the bacopa melting away.


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Entering this discussion rather late, but I've played around with AR for a few years. Here is what works and doesn't in my aquasoil tank:

AR likes:
- high light
- generous GH 
- low traces
- CO2 helps speed things along, but not as critical the factors above

AR dislikes:
- low light
- high traces (EI levels produce wavy leaf edges. They go completely flat with lower trace levels.) 
- Low Cal/Mag. Not sure it cares about Ca:mg ratio
If the above 3 conditions exist, my AR will struggle or stunt/twist no matter how much CO2 I throw at it. In my tank, low GH chems + high traces is the magic combo for producing nasty twisted tips. Low light makes it small and pathetic. Low light + low macros makes it lanky and brittle, with semi-translucent leaves. 

I've tried both high and low macros. Not a huge difference. Grows a little faster and better at higher macros. (Low macros = 2 ppm nitrate per day. High macros = 45 ppm nitrate per week, given in 3 doses). EI levels not necessary. Half to a third is fine. 

KH does not seem to matter. 

I tried Thrive at half dose for a month. Thrive is roughly 1/5 of EI traces. So I was dosing about 10% of EI traces. The plant looked gorgeous with big flat leaves. 

I then reduced the light a lot and that REALLY hurt the plant. 

No clue if any of this is applicable to other people's tanks, but that's how it rolls in mine.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Saxa Tilly said:


> Entering this discussion rather late, but I've played around with AR for a few years. Here is what works and doesn't in my aquasoil tank:
> 
> AR likes:
> - high light
> ...


I was thinking about this thread earlier today. I was trying to figure out what changed within the tank to make this happen. It's grew fine for months and looked great. The only thing that were introduced was I got a new canister filter and I started adding some gh booster on Sunday's. I may consider ditching the gh booster and see what happens from there. I stared back up this week with the original amount of csmb that I had been using for months. My once thriving tank is in shambles after stopping and reducing the traces.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

So it's started to rear its ugly head again. Attached below is a picture of the new growth and it's not looking so hot. I had started back with the original amount of csmb due to the fact that all my other plants just simply stopped growing and some looked to be suffering from an iron deficiency. Since starting back with the original dosage all the others plants are growing bonkers. I may be at the point where I just give up on it in this tank all together. Funny part is that they ARE grows fantastic in my low tech 20g.


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## Soulstar (Aug 27, 2013)

Nlewis said:


> So it's started to rear its ugly head again. Attached below is a picture of the new growth and it's not looking so hot. I had started back with the original amount of csmb due to the fact that all my other plants just simply stopped growing and some looked to be suffering from an iron deficiency. Since starting back with the original dosage all the others plants are growing bonkers. I may be at the point where I just give up on it in this tank all together. Funny part is that they ARE grows fantastic in my low tech 20g.


I had the same issue. I stopped dosing micros to check if it was toxicity issue and my rotalas really made a come back, along with my bolbitis but the plants that were actually doing decently (with full EI) started getting worse after a few days. I've read in other threads that others are having similar experiences, which might have to do with all the micros being released back into the water from your substrate (at least for me as I'm using ADA AS) or it could be a deficiency. Who knows...

Then you are stuck in this continuous cycle of whether to dose/stop the micros. 

For now I'm just dosing full EI for macros and a more lean macro solution. I'm trying to stick to this solution for at least a couple weeks because I'll never find out whats causing the issue if I change multiple things at once. 

But even as I'm writing this, I'm already contemplating whether to change my dosing regime. :crying: 

No self control lol


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

So @burr740, this is the new growth I've been getting lately. I've done several things over the past few weeks in order to figure this out and done so much I'm not sure what caused it to improve. 
This is what I've done:

- stopped dosing k2s04
- stopped dosing gh booster
- added .2ppm fe 10% dtpa on micro days with csmb @ .2ppm
- added a korilia nano 240 for additional flow (on timer with co2)

I did notice within a week of not dosing the th booster that the ramshorn snails shells improved drastically. This makes me think I had to much Cal? Could this have been a Cal tox? I don't believe it was a flow issue. 

Now I'm dealing with some green brush algae which I can't seem to pinpoint where that's coming from. I started a thread on it but got no responses.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Good to see the AR doing better. You did something right!

From what I understand, too much Ca can interfere with the uptake or utilization of other nutrients. Not sure about the toxictiy part or what happened with the shells.

Guessing on the brush algae, could be now that you've corrected one thing, another deficiency has popped up. Are the lower hygro leaves yellow at the tips, or is that just the pic? From here it looks like a classic symptom of early N deficiency, or K if there are pinholes. Which could also explain why the grass is getting algae. Does the grass look pale? Either way Id be sure to dose plenty of macros. 

Other than that, could try cutting micros and/or Fe in half and see if that helps. You're still at 8-10x more than Im able to dose. Not that you should follow my routine, because Im fairly convinced my tank is some sort of genetic freak. Just pointing out that is still a pretty high level. 

But above and before everything, make sure the co2 good. Question it regularly, and look for ways to improve it. Because if CO2 is off it's going to be like playing whack-a-mole no matter what you do.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Good to see the AR doing better. You did something right!
> 
> From what I understand, too much Ca can interfere with the uptake or utilization of other nutrients. Not sure about the toxictiy part or what happened with the shells.
> 
> ...


Co2 is clicking along great, if I push it any further I'll probably kill everything in the tank. 

There is yellowing and small pinholes in the lower hygrophila leaves. The DHG has always looked pale to me, I never have gotten that lush darker green color out of it. I did mow it down Sunday in an effort to get some of the brush algae out. After the trim I did notice it seems like the DHG could use some love as a lot of it is almost translucent. So, from what you're saying I should dose more KNO3? According to the Rotala calculator I've always dosed less than the target amount. I've been hesitant to dose more ferts due to the brush algae. I can't kill this stuff, H202 and Excel have no effect on it. I feel like the additional iron my be causing the brush algae to explode. Today, 2 days after I painstakingly removed a lot of it, it's coming back tenfold. 

You think my micros may still be to high, I'm not even hitting the target of .5ppm. The only issues I have with any other plant is with the pogo erectus. For whatever reason the tips stunt at times. I'll top them and the new growth grows back perfect.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nlewis said:


> Co2 is clicking along great, if I push it any further I'll probably kill everything in the tank.
> 
> There is yellowing and small pinholes in the lower hygrophila leaves. The DHG has always looked pale to me, I never have gotten that lush darker green color out of it. I did mow it down Sunday in an effort to get some of the brush algae out. After the trim I did notice it seems like the DHG could use some love as a lot of it is almost translucent. So, from what you're saying I should dose more KNO3? According to the Rotala calculator I've always dosed less than the target amount. I've been hesitant to dose more ferts due to the brush algae. I can't kill this stuff, H202 and Excel have no effect on it. I feel like the additional iron my be causing the brush algae to explode. Today, 2 days after I painstakingly removed a lot of it, it's coming back tenfold.
> 
> You think my micros may still be to high, I'm not even hitting the target of .5ppm. The only issues I have with any other plant is with the pogo erectus. For whatever reason the tips stunt at times. I'll top them and the new growth grows back perfect.



In general there can only be one deficiency at a time, Leibig's Law

Anytime you see multiple symptoms, such as now what appears to be both N and K - the problem is either CO2 or a toxicity.

Yes I absolutely think you are dosing too many micros. The "target" means nothing, it's just a number in a column, which the calculators overshot at some point, and all the later ones simply copied.

Even Barr himself recently said the .5 didnt come from him. Read this post.

Some people are able just lard it on with decent results. Many others however, can not. What is the difference, I have no idea. But Ive seen first hand in my own tanks, which is enough evidence for me.

Try something like .1 csmb, and .1 or .05 dtpa, for a couple of weeks and see what happens. Leave macros where they are because these deficiency symptoms are most likely (imo) induced from toxicity.

An alternative route is to leave micros where they are, and increase macros to full EI levels. See if things improve that way. Dont be afraid of more N causing algae. May not be necessary but shouldnt cause any problem.

Personally I would try cutting micros first. But doing either one should tell you something.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

LRJ said:


> I wasn't saying that based on the photo not appearing bright (really tough to say anything about light levels from a photo), but on the fact that the AR is cramped and has plants which appear to be overhanging it (again, sort of tough to tell from the pic). If it is in fact getting good direct light, the crowding could still be an issue. Something to think about, in addition to the more conservative micro dose.


I agree.


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