# blue green algae help!!!



## iverson387 (Oct 23, 2007)

i have a 65 gal tank that has just gotten over green water about a week ago and now has what i belive to be blue green algae all over the sand. what is the best way to get rid of this. i have been vacuming the substrate and turning the sand daily but it comes back the next day. i attempted a 3 day blackout but it came back after 1 day of lights again. Im going to get some erythromycin tomorrow and try that but wanted to get to the root of the problem so it wont come back. what is off in this tank and what should i try to do to fix this

3x39 watt t5ho 8 hrs per day
pressurized co2 20-30 ppm via drop checker
sand substrate
rena xp3 & uv sterilizer w/powerhead
dosing ei for 40-60 gal tank
approx 50 fish all small 

ph 6.4
nitrate 10 ppm
ammonia 0
nitrite 0


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## hectorjohn (Mar 21, 2008)

do you have plants? whats thier condition, are they growing?


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## iverson387 (Oct 23, 2007)

yup i have hairgrass hc hm amazon sword rotala, cambomba, glosso, wisteria and a few more but there all growing well. all plants are letting off constant oxygen bubbles all day.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

BGA is often blamed for Nitrates bottoming out. I have also purchased plants that had some BGA that quickly spread to my tank after introduction.

If you have a nitrate test kit, make sure it is calibrated properly so that you know you are getting accurate readings. If you do a search on this subject you will find plenty of information regarding calibration.

You can treat the tank with Erythromiacin if you do indeed have BGA. It will work. Just follow the directions and dose consistantly. This will get rid of what you have though. It will not help if your nitrates are indeed too low. It will come back if nitrates are indeed out of whack.


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## iverson387 (Oct 23, 2007)

so is my 10 ppm of nitrates too low. should i add more to my dosing schedule.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Your nitrates may or may not be low. 10ppm is not nessecarily optimal, but it isn't 0 either. How do you know it is really 10 ppm though? Tom Barr made me question my test kit one time, and immediately I saw his point. You can't always trust test kits.

Have you added any new plants to your tank lately? Can you think of anything that happened that may have lead to a BGA outbreak? Filter clog or severe dead spots with regards to circulation?

I do believe that BGA can come from nitrates bottoming out. It has happened to me. The other method that I have witnesed was transplanting plants with some BGA into my tank. My nitrates were well above zero, but it easily propogated in my tank once introduced.

Before you go changing things, lets try to figure out why it is there.


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## iverson387 (Oct 23, 2007)

i have not changed any circulation and have tested my test kit using the method listed on a website (rex rigg i believe). The test kit is working according to the test i did. to double check i will have my lfs test the water 2morrow and i will test with my kit at the same time. Also i have some plants that are about a week old but i bleach dip every plant i get for 2 min 30 sec. I also have a slight amount of bba on a few plants.
Today i have cleaned the entire tank, 50 percent water change, dosed erythrmocyn and kno3, and put the tank in a blackout. i figured i will dose erythorocyn tomorrow night again then the next night 25 percent water change and half dose. same thing the night after that and then turn everything back on.

Am i on the right track or should i try something else. i really dont want to let this get out of control and the algae was covering the entire sand in 8 hrs. then i would clean it again and it would come back. If this does not work i may just start over and change the substrate to flourite black sand. But i would really like to get everything in order instead.


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## mikeb210 (Oct 17, 2007)

I used erythromycin and the BGA in my tank never returned. Don't bother with the blackout, IMO its unnecessary. Just dose the erythromycin for the 5 day cycle, no water changes during that (keep the chemicals in the water column). Then after the dosing is complete WC about 50%. Mine was gone after the 4th or 5th day. Good luck!

-Mike


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

its actually a bacteria, cyanobacteria. antibiotics against gram negative bacteria work well. (maracyn)

it doesnt actually make your nitrates decrease, it is rather a result of it. it is not a denitritifying bacteria, it is a nitrogen fixing bacteria. denitritifying bacteria turn nitrates into oxygen and nitrogen gas, nitrogen fixing bacteria use nitrogen directly from its gas form (and you have little N bubbles in your tank for sure since it makes up 68% of the atmoshpere).


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

iverson387 said:


> i have not changed any circulation


I believe BGA is a combination of low/no nitrates *and* low flow/circulation.

If the plants have "grown in" well--then that will effect the cirulation in the tank......:thumbsup: 

How often/much have you tested the nitrates? I don't know what your fert regime is or how strictly you adhere to it, but when you dose v. when you test can have a direct impact on the results. The question really is: Are the nitrates bottoming out.....? Are they reaching a point that's too low in reference to your light, C02, and/or other ferts, etc.

You don't have high light, and everything else seems in order in that respect. I would suggest bumping your N03 dosing up to the 60-80gal level and tossing a small pump/powerhead in there to see if that helps. If it does, then you can sort out later how to increase the circulation without having to look at a powerhead all the time......:thumbsup: 

HTH


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

flow makes it harder for the bacteria to form colonized growth (the kind that is visible), but it doesnt mean too much, since there will always be SOMEWHERE in the tank that they can be (right behind the filter outake for example, or in the stem plants).


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## iverson387 (Oct 23, 2007)

ya i dont think flow is really a problem as i have a rena xp3 and a uv sterilizer with powerhead for more flow. i can see the plants moving back an forth. also i tested the nitrate kit per instructions i found on a web site i believe it was rex rigg and it came out fine. 2morrow will be the end of the 3 day blackout and i will see how things go for the next few days.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

heh, i just got BGA in my eclipse 3; but ive got it there multiple times. its not a problem there since unless there is a lot of it, it grows slower then my plants, so i just need to clean it every week. also, i have a sick java fern and a yellowing anubias, so that may have something to do with it.


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## TLH (Apr 20, 2008)

Don't forget to check for an ammonia spike if using antibiotics as they will kill your filter bacteria too.

Depending on where the stuff is hiding it may come back even after antibiotics. You should probably stir the gravel or vacuum it before you start dosing and clean as much BGA away as possible during this initial water change. Personally I would leave the lights off during treatment as BGA does photosynthesise and anything you can do to weaken it is a good thing. Then do another major clean after treatment.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

it may not happen. there are many cases of etheromycin doing NO damage to nitritifying bacteria. and those few cases of ammonia, i think, is more likely just a cause of all the dead bacteria that were supposed to be killed (if everything is covered in BGA and it all gets nuked and dies around the same time, then thats a HUGE decomposing biomass and can easily cause a spike with even a healthy biofilter).


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## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

The cheapest route will be to do a complete blackout for 3-4 days. I have used antibiotics and blackouts to treat BGA, and each method is just as effective as the other. In a 65g tank, using antibiotics for the full cycle will be a bit pricey unless you can get them somewhere besides a pet store. In either case, you need to remove as much of the BGA before treatment to cut down on the amount of dead matter in your tank.

I have had BGA in high nitrate situations with decent flow, so I don't believe here is one specific criteria you can look at when trying to find a root cause of an outbreak.

Dave


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

DaveS said:


> I have had BGA in high nitrate situations with decent flow, so I don't believe here is one specific criteria you can look at when trying to find a root cause of an outbreak.


i definately agree. i have it in a high nitrate tank, and i also had it before in ultra-high flow. this bacteria is very adaptable. if you have a tank, chances are there is a kind of bga that is perfect for it. reefs, fowlr, freshwater, planted low tech, planted high tech, ADA 90P pristine glass so you can see every little detail of the algae that has taken over, etc. 
i hate the stuff. every other algae can be dealt with much easier and safer.


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## iverson387 (Oct 23, 2007)

i did the 3 day blackout and dosed the em for 4 days and its all gone now. but i do have some bba that popped up recently. this is like a never ending cycle. i have the co2 pumped up high. the drop checker is just inbetween green and yellow. why do i have bba and what do i do to get rid of it.


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR (Apr 25, 2008)

i used maracyn half strength for 6 days with lights on..

erythromycyn does that stuff in quickly.

i had it bad, covering the bottom like a blanket. it was all dead after 3 days. gravel vac and its gone. 

the maracyn treatment works wonders.


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## Carissa (Aug 19, 2007)

Decomposing organic matter can cause/contribute greatly to any type of algae, especially bga. I had a tank that was overrun with bga and the only way I ended up getting rid of it was removing and replacing the substrate. It was caked onto it (dead and alive) and there was no real way to get it out. Plus I had too much gravel, trapping too much organic waste and I wasn't doing water changes enough which is what led to the problem. Since then I have not had one single recurrence. Whatever else you do - water change, gravel vac, water change, gravel vac.


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## obet_07304 (Jul 23, 2006)

Anybody here have BGA on their plants? Mine only grows on the plant leaves especially the ones on top never on the substrate.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR said:


> i used maracyn half strength for 6 days with lights on..
> 
> erythromycyn does that stuff in quickly.
> 
> ...


Ditto...

If you have BGA then it is probably because you transmitted it via new plants from an infected tank or your nitrates bottomed out.

Get your nitrates up, dose with erythromycyn after you have dealt with your nitrates, and follow the reccomended course to completion. Do not deviate! Blackouts only work if you have dealt with the original problem. CO2 levels will have NO IMPACT on BGA.

Erythromycyn will have no impact on your biological filter. The only livestock that I have ever seen effected personally is malasian trumpet snails, and it could have been coincidental.


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## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

I would say that neither blackouts nor antibiotics will solve the problem if the root cause has not been dealt with. Every person here has cyanobacteria in their tanks, it just doesn't become a problem unless conditions are right. We are talking about one of the oldest and most prevalent life forms on the planet. Even if antibiotics were somehow able to completely wipe out all cyano in a tank (not likely) it will still be back in a matter of days. I have had secondary (and third, fourth, and so on) outbreaks after either method of treatment.

Dave


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

DaveS said:


> I would say that neither blackouts nor antibiotics will solve the problem if the root cause has not been dealt with. Every person here has cyanobacteria in their tanks, it just doesn't become a problem unless conditions are right. We are talking about one of the oldest and most prevalent life forms on the planet. Even if antibiotics were somehow able to completely wipe out all cyano in a tank (not likely) it will still be back in a matter of days. I have had secondary (and third, fourth, and so on) outbreaks after either method of treatment.
> 
> Dave


Dave -

I agree with you for the most part. I do know that there are A LOT of members here that have never seen it though. 

Dealing with the issue as you say is paramount.

I belive it to be 1 of three different things:

1. Nitrates bottomed out.
2. Poor circulation in the infected spot(s).
3. It came from antother source.

I challenge anyone to give me another potential source that they think it comes from. I am definately all ears.


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## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

Well ... since you laid down a challenge ... 

The last tank I had BGA in pretty much violated all three of those criteria in that it has good circulation, and in fact had the bulk of the BGA growing in what I would consider high flow areas. My nitrate readings were actually running high in that tank, somewhere in the 15-20ppm range. No new plants were added to the tank in years, nor were new fish so I don't think it came from somewhere else. In the end, I found that I had quite a bit of sunlight hitting the tank, as one of my cats had knocked the blinds in the basement out of whack. After I fixed the extra lighting issue and did a four day blackout the tank has not had any more BGA problems. I can't say for sure that sunlight was the culprit, but it sure seems that way.

I agree that many people have never seen BGA problems. It is still alive in their tanks, just kept in check.

Dave


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

DaveS said:


> Well ... since you laid down a challenge ...
> 
> The last tank I had BGA in pretty much violated all three of those criteria in that it has good circulation, and in fact had the bulk of the BGA growing in what I would consider high flow areas. My nitrate readings were actually running high in that tank, somewhere in the 15-20ppm range. No new plants were added to the tank in years, nor were new fish so I don't think it came from somewhere else. In the end, I found that I had quite a bit of sunlight hitting the tank, as one of my cats had knocked the blinds in the basement out of whack. After I fixed the extra lighting issue and did a four day blackout the tank has not had any more BGA problems. I can't say for sure that sunlight was the culprit, but it sure seems that way.


Dave - 

I definately don't want to discredit anything that you have said. The extra sunlight very well might have been the straw that broke the camel's back. One thing that has been said regarding this matter as it pertains to me though was "Can you really trust your nitrate kit?"

This was posed to me by Tom Barr and I see the point that he was trying to make with ME. 

Edit: 

My test kit measured 50 ppm of nitrates at the time of the issue...

end edit.

The kit should be fully calibrated to make sure that the readings are indeed acurate.

Like I said though, your post might indeed have a lot of merit to it. I defainately would not rule out the possibility. I can say that it had no impact on my situation though.


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR (Apr 25, 2008)

i added a bolivian ram that i had bought from a tank that had the bottom coated with bga.. 

and about a week later, my tank was covered in the stuff. never had it before then and made no changes in tank care during this time.

i am of the opinion that this stuff must be transmitted into the tank, using fish or plants as a vehicle for transportation. do not dismiss the fact that we are constantly sticking our hands, nets, tubes and such that could all be possibly contaminated with cyanobacteria, even if you wash your hands before sticking them in the tank water, how often do you wash past your elbow??

i think that relatively low nitrates do play a factor in making cyanobacteria able to reproduce more easily.

however i do not even own a nitate test kit 
i know that with the frequency and volume of my water changes the fish's health is in good hands. a test kit may be an important tool for developing a standard on which we can gauge to aid in dosing, but i like to get a feel for what i am doing, by watching the plants over time.


i had bga for 2 weeks. i tried every trick in the book to get rid of the bga.. short of blackouts and hypnotysm.

think of bga as the common cold. 
walking around with wet hair when it's cold or not sleeping enough do not cause the common cold, but it can weaken your immune system making you more vulnerale to the illness. but if you hadn't have rubbed your eyes at the mall with dirty hands the germs would not have entered your body in the first place...

low nitrates do not cause this, they only make your tank more susceptable to infection. 

ever had an infection of any kind? or a "social disease?"
what do we usually do when our body is infected?
we kill of the bacteria with antibiotics, because almost all other remedies will not yeild results.

depriving the bga of light will kill it, but every bit of it must be dead. maybe a 3 day blackout sometimes may not be enough? a longer blackout?

if you are anything like me you would be incapable of committing to the blackout method. i just emptied 3 packets a day of maracyn into my 55 gal tank for 6 days. it was all dead and has not came back after that. if it ever does, the solution is simple. bga is not something to be feared when it is so easily correctable.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

there are 2 problems with your theory:
cyanobacteria are pretty common, actually i wouldnt be suprised if you hade tiny amounts in just about every tank, its the conditions that make it thrive. so it was most likely in the tank before you added the ram, but it could have been a different, less hardy, strain of it. 
and the other thing is that anyone who takes antibiotics for a cold is a moron, its caused by a virus.


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR (Apr 25, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> there are 2 problems with your theory:
> cyanobacteria are pretty common, actually i wouldnt be suprised if you hade tiny amounts in just about every tank, its the conditions that make it thrive. so it was most likely in the tank before you added the ram, but it could have been a different, less hardy, strain of it.
> and the other thing is that anyone who takes antibiotics for a cold is a moron, its caused by a virus.


cyanobacteria are not present in every tank.
they need to "get there" before they can take hold.

the right conditions just make them able to spread much easier if they are in fact there. if cyanobacteria are pretty common, they could be as common as the common cold.
furthermore cyanobacteria might as well be just as common as gonorrhea.

Putting your dirty hands into the tank is just like rubbing your eyes with dirty hands. if the cold germs are on your hands (or the cyanobacteria) and you rub your eyes (or put your hands in your tank) then you are contaminating your body or your tank. if conditions are right and your immune system is already compromised you could become sick. (or if conditions are right your tank could break out with cyanobacteria.) 


read my post above a bit closer.
i was referring to the common cold scenario as a comparison regarding contamination. 

and i stated that we use antibiotics for (BACTERIAL) infections.
when you have a bacterial infection in your body...gonorrhea? 
antibiotics are the cure. the infection does not come back unless you are recontaminated, in which case you simply use antibiotics again. Is gonorrhea present in all of our bodies in tiny amounts just waiting for conditions to be right so it can take hold? of course not. it must get there first (somehow...:hihi: )

so when our tanks are infected with cyanobacteria, antibiotics are the simple cure. the other side to this is that cyanobacteria needs to photosynthesize in order to survive. take light away from it and it stops reproducing, and starts dying. the only drawback to the blackout method is that we have to turn off the lights and cover the tank :icon_frow for a few days. i would rather stay lit and stare at my fish.


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## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR said:


> cyanobacteria are not present in every tank.
> they need to "get there" before they can take hold.


I disagree. I imagine if you were to do a study (and it has been done, I will try to relocate the link) you will find that indeed there are cyanobacteria in every aquarium. Like dust, cyano is blowing in the wind after all. 

Regardless, there are numerous strains of cyano I believe and perhaps only certain ones are problematic. If this is true, it might be that an individual has to be either unlucky or careless to transfer it to their tank.

Dave


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR (Apr 25, 2008)

there ARE forms other forms of cyanobacteria that are not harmful.

spirulina, happens to be one of them. these things could potentially be present in your tank in an unnoticed, invisible state of existance.



However, i am talking about the form of cyanobacteria that we refer to as Blue-Green Algae. the one that we dont want in our tanks because it forms very noticable, unsightly, hepatoxic blankets of slime.


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR (Apr 25, 2008)

how about this one?

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/Area_of..._Signaling_Enzymes/Cyanobacterial_Toxins.html

eat as much as you can find


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

> so when our tanks are infected with cyanobacteria, antibiotics are the simple cure.


i have used antibiotics for cyano, so its not that im saying dont do it, but i wouldnt call it a simple cure. its more like a nuke. plants are less affected by it then a blackout, but its not good for the fish. im sure you have felt side-effects from antibiotics, i wouldnt be suprised if the fish do also. in addition, any bacteria that survive (cyano, or otherwise), build up resistance, so now you have resistant cyano in your tank as well as resistant bacteria that will give your favorite fish a case of popeye or dropsy you just wont be able to cure (because im willing to bet you are going to use maracyn for it). i would try to solve underlying problems first, or at least change something so you dont get another outbreak. if you dont change the conditions at all the cyano may even come back.




DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR said:


> the one that we dont want in our tanks because it forms very noticable, unsightly, hepatoxic blankets of slime.


they all form noticable, unsightly blankets of slime if given the conditions they need to do so. just a few arent toxic, so those arent as bad. spirulina is nutritious, but im guessing (and its just a guess here) that it is just as ugly as the rest.


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## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

I can say from experience that cyano can easily come back after a full round of antibiotics just as it can come back from a tank blackout. In the end, I feel more comfortable not using antibiotics multiple times in the same tank, especially to treat the same problem. The chances of creating an antibiotic resistant strain of something in our tanks is quite small to be sure, but with so many people keeping tanks, that tiny chance is multiplied many times over. I also don't feel comfortable dumping antibiotic laced water back into my municipal water supply's system, nor would I feel comfortable dumping it in my yard. To each their own I suppose, but with the blackout being so effective (not to mention so much cheaper in large aquariums) I don't see any reason not to use it. I guarantee that BGA will come back if the underlying problem has not been addressed regardless.

Dave


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i agree on its return, however, the antibiotics would do little to damage the water supplies purity. at the moment, sewage treatement plants are in the proccess of beginning to realize the effects of pharmecueticals in water, and i mean human-grade, heavy-duty, stuff from the hospitals. antibiotics are removed from the system through urine, so the effects of maracyn in an aquarium, that wont even kill BGA are dwarfed by the flushing of a person in the hospital that is on penicyline. but now that tests have come in on the amount of such pharmacueticals in the water, it wont be too long (hopefully) before something is done about their treatement and removal.


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