# Advice on layout please!



## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Finally got everything in and planted and just wanted to get some more experienced aquascapers opinions. I like the wood and plants just not sure of the layout. Tank is 24x17 so always had a problem with spacing. Any advice is appreciated and trust me I don't take criticism personal

Thanks


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

I think it looks really nice but my initial reaction is that the wood is too dominant. You have some very beautiful stems, but they are all squished in the back corner and really hard to see. The wood is cool but it is a little too dominating and I feel like the stems should be more prominent. 

I think if you were to take out the two right most pieces of wood and added them to the cluster on the left (or left them out altogether) you would have a more pleasing layout. You could then spread out the stems more along the back or bring a few into the mid ground to increase the depth. 

Overall though it is quite nice, the plants look very lush and healthy!


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

There isn't a clear delineation of the fore and aft of the layout, hence part of the issue. Your foreground intrudes into the background, midground into foreground. There isn't much of a background or midground.

1. The wood should be placed in the midground. Some part of it can intrude into the foreground.

2. The Blyxa(?) should be in the midground with the wood.

3. The stems should cover the entire background.

4. Front substrate line must be straight.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Might as well enter my 2 cents...
I like it pretty much the way it is. If I changed anything, I'd put the two green plants on the right into the back left corner and use the Blyxa which I removed to do that in front of and under the two pieces of tree on the left.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> There isn't a clear delineation of the fore and aft of the layout, hence part of the issue. Your foreground intrudes into the background, midground into foreground. There isn't much of a background or midground.
> 
> 1. The wood should be placed in the midground. Some part of it can intrude into the foreground.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice I appreciate it.

1. I'll see what I can do on this. Only issue I've been having with this is the space of the tank. With the current pieces that I have it's hard to designate it to one truly defined area as it's only 17 inches deep.

2. I hear ya with the blyxa. I know it's a foreground/mid ground plant, I just wanted the Belem carpet so I thought I could get away with it.

3. Stems should cover the entire back glass?

4. I'll see what I can do about the front substrate level. Any easy way to do this without uprooting the Belem and risk stirring up the tank?

Thanks again!

Kev


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

tharsis said:


> I think it looks really nice but my initial reaction is that the wood is too dominant. You have some very beautiful stems, but they are all squished in the back corner and really hard to see. The wood is cool but it is a little too dominating and I feel like the stems should be more prominent.
> 
> I think if you were to take out the two right most pieces of wood and added them to the cluster on the left (or left them out altogether) you would have a more pleasing layout. You could then spread out the stems more along the back or bring a few into the mid ground to increase the depth.
> 
> Overall though it is quite nice, the plants look very lush and healthy!


I've gone back and forth on that piece of wood on the right so I'd have to agree with you there. It's funny how you get an image or idea in your head and when all is said and done it looks nothing like you'd hoped. Guess it's all part if the process! Learn by doing as they say

Thanks for the feedback and the compliments!

Kev


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Thanks for the advice I appreciate it.
> 
> 1. I'll see what I can do on this. Only issue I've been having with this is the space of the tank. With the current pieces that I have it's hard to designate it to one truly defined area as it's only 17 inches deep.


This should be more than enough space. Even if it were 10" deep, it's enough for the 3 distinct areas.



> 3. Stems should cover the entire back glass?


Yes.



> 4. I'll see what I can do about the front substrate level. Any easy way to do this without uprooting the Belem and risk stirring up the tank?


No easy way to do it. You'd have to pull up the grass in front, level it, and either replant or let it grow back in.


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

I wouldn't necessarily agree that the front substrate has to be flat or that the stems have to cover the entire back glass. It is really about what you find pleasing, while there can be guidelines for making a tank pleasing (ie. the golden ratio) I have seen some stunning tanks that play by their own rules. 

Your carpet is beautiful, I personally wouldn't mess it up just to get a straight substrate.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Think this wood layout would work better. Maybe try to go more Dutch style? Would just need advice in where to position plants as I've no experience in Dutch scraping.

Thank


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Think this wood layout would work better. Maybe try to go more Dutch style? Would just need advice in where to position plants as I've no experience in Dutch scraping.
> 
> Thank


Your decision, but personally I won't do that Dutch is a lot of work (tons of constant trimming to make it look a certain way), besides you have a pretty nice setup. I would just move the B. Japonica to the mid-ground under some of the branches in the middle this will give it some more depth and transition the foreground to the back. In the back I would put one type of tall green plant and leave some of that pink plant you have off center. I do think some of Solcielo's advice is spot-on, but unless your trying to win the ADA Aquascaping Contest this forum with mostly new and less experienced scapers is the wrong context for some of it. When you start out your not going to be able to cross all your 'T' and dot all your 'I', which is usually necessary to win top contests, but you can still make an excellent scape with some basic pointers.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Yeah I wouldn't do full Dutch as I'm not experienced enough nor do I have the time to put into it. I do realize the current wood has no real focal point and the scape has no real flow. I think perhaps with the other wood I can maybe at least follow the golden ratio and then have a bit more room to group alike plants together an make sure they all get adequate lighting.

Any thoughts on the potential wood arrangement?

Thanks


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Thinking Sunday is the redo date!

Should I rearrange and take out some of the current wood or go with the second grouping I posted. The feature piece in the second choice has pretty interesting nooks and cranny's.

Advice always appreciated!


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I would spend more time imagining how the hardscape would look before I even touch a thing. It's the "measure twice, cut once" rule. Using a pad and pencil works wonders for this. The more accurate you are in the sketch, the more likely you'll have better outcomes. Otherwise, you'll be rearranging forever and it still isn't right.


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## dcutl002 (Apr 8, 2014)

I like it just the way it is. What light fixture is that ?


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

It's a bmled 10k and Dutch


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> I would spend more time imagining how the hardscape would look before I even touch a thing. It's the "measure twice, cut once" rule. Using a pad and pencil works wonders for this. The more accurate you are in the sketch, the more likely you'll have better outcomes. Otherwise, you'll be rearranging forever and it still isn't right.


Definitely. I think I may go with the second layout and put the blyxa on the left side then do a carpet of the Belem along the front and to the right. Maybe place the araguaia in one of the gaps of the wood in the mid ground then focus on the stems along the back wall and corners. And of course leveling the front substrate and just grading it up towards the back. 

Is it worth a slope in the back from left to right or just incline it evenly from front to back?

Love the feedback!!
Thanks


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## rick dale (Feb 26, 2014)

*tall plant*

what is the tall pink colored plant in the back right corner.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

rick dale said:


> what is the tall pink colored plant in the back right corner.


"Red" Pantanal. It's a pretty plant, not sure how to propagate it yet though, a few stems have offshoots coming off of it. Assuming ya just replant the tips.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

It's best to incline evenly from front to back. The layout you have could make for a pretty decent nature-style scape. You already have foreground, midground, and background plants selected which work pretty well together. The two major things you'll need to do is:
1) arrange the wood so it's in the midground (not spread across all three areas), and

2) find a background plant that can cover the entire back, e.g. Rotala sp. "Ceylon". The current plants can be used as accents, especially the Pantanal. R. sp. "Ceylon" has a metallic pink underleaf color which would complement well with the Pantanal.

Here's what your wood sort of looks like that you could arrange to look more natural. Here's a beaver dam:









Obviously, you don't need that much wood as you have enough to give a reflection of that dam.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> It's best to incline evenly from front to back. The layout you have could make for a pretty decent nature-style scape. You already have foreground, midground, and background plants selected which work pretty well together. The two major things you'll need to do is:
> 1) arrange the wood so it's in the midground (not spread across all three areas), and
> 
> 2) find a background plant that can cover the entire back, e.g. Rotala sp. "Ceylon". The current plants can be used as accents, especially the Pantanal. R. sp. "Ceylon" has a metallic pink underleaf color which would complement well with the Pantanal.
> ...


I'll fiddle around with the wood and maybe cut it down. Would you run the wood all across the tank in the midground then. I have rocks as well I could play with seryou stone or whatever it's called.

I'll have to look around for that particular rotola plant, it's very nice looking!

Kev


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Yes, I'd place the wood across the midground. Keep in mind that the Blyxa should be planted in the midground so it's not just a bunch of wood forming a fence but provides a gentle transition from fore to background. Some rocks could help provide some extra texture if placed properly.

Also, R. sp. "Ceylon" is also known as R. sp. "pink". They're the same plant. Under N limiting, the entire leaf will turn pink.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Yes, I'd place the wood across the midground. Keep in mind that the Blyxa should be planted in the midground so it's not just a bunch of wood forming a fence but provides a gentle transition from fore to background. Some rocks could help provide some extra texture if placed properly.
> 
> Also, R. sp. "Ceylon" is also known as R. sp. "pink". They're the same plant. Under N limiting, the entire leaf will turn pink.


Thanks a ton solcielo.

If I decided to go with the second wood option that I pictured could you recommend plant placement for that. I'm a bit tentative to hack up the current wood as it was actually purchased for a future 40 breeder.

If ya get some time let me know

Cheers!


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

The piece of wood is kind of odd-looking. It sort of looks like a squid with only three arms. If you have better angles, it may help.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> The piece of wood is kind of odd-looking. It sort of looks like a squid with only three arms. If you have better angles, it may help.


Ha, I kinda thought the same thing but thought the plants would help hide that. I'll see if I can get some different pics up. I don't have to have those two pieces coming out the front there. They are not attached. Could try some rock in front of the central piece or something or just place the wood differently.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> The piece of wood is kind of odd-looking. It sort of looks like a squid with only three arms. If you have better angles, it may help.


Ha, I kinda thought the same thing but thought the plants would help hide that. I'll see if I can get some different pics up. I don't have to have those two pieces coming out the front there. They are not attached. Could try some rock in front of the central piece or something or just place the wood differently.

I could also flip that main piece of wood so those two skinny limbs are stickin upwards and moss them with Xmas moss or even pellia??


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> The piece of wood is kind of odd-looking. It sort of looks like a squid with only three arms. If you have better angles, it may help.


How about something like this? This uses two of the original pieces and some extra rock that I had. 

Overall goal is to mimic this local swamy area with a lot of dead fallen trees with the fall colored hills behind it.

Let me know if I'm improving here.

Thanks again
Kev


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

It's not bad. But it should be more horizontal, not angled toward the front. Rocks should be spread across the midground, not just at the base of the branches.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> It's not bad. But it should be more horizontal, not angled toward the front. Rocks should be spread across the midground, not just at the base of the branches.


Ok. At least I'm getting somewhere. I'll workin it more either tonight or tomorrow. I could angle up the longer piece of wood perhaps as it angles forward naturally the way it sits now.

Thanks


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I don't think I was clear. I mean that the long piece is too close to the front which causes a fore-aft imbalance. It should be placed left to right, not back to front.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> I don't think I was clear. I mean that the long piece is too close to the front which causes a fore-aft imbalance. It should be placed left to right, not back to front.


Gotcha. It does have a bend in it so to get it more horizontal it will either have to angle up at the end or hump in the middle with that endpoint going down into the substrate.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> I don't think I was clear. I mean that the long piece is too close to the front which causes a fore-aft imbalance. It should be placed left to right, not back to front.


What do you think about this one?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

No that doesn't work at all IMO. There is no clear focal area as each branch competes against each other in a very unnatural disorder.

The previous pic was good. Would be ideal if that one large branch that forks to the front could be cut off.


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## HUNTER (Sep 4, 2012)

No matter how you scape you'll get different opinion. What matters is, does it pleases you?


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> No that doesn't work at all IMO. There is no clear focal area as each branch competes against each other in a very unnatural disorder.
> 
> The previous pic was good. Would be ideal if that one large branch that forks to the front could be cut off.


Any better my friends?
Can't tell ya all how much I appreciate all the feedback!


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Any better my friends?
> Can't tell ya all how much I appreciate all the feedback!


Personally I like this layout for the branches (no real opinion on rocks), having them all face one way and have something dense growing by the base to hide that its several separate pieces. Perosnally like java fern or needdle or narrow leaf variety for this and have filter outflow on the wall the bases of the branches are and pointed out so the flow will make the plant (fern for this example) flow/sway gently in the direction of the branches. Then have a shorter or less dense foliage on the opposite wall of the branch bases.. But this is just a preference/dream for a future scape for me.. someday.

[added] I guess if i were using that wood and rock I'd put the rocks around the wood (near bases) to prop the branches up a bit more to get different angles/heights/etc and then do some carpet plant (still haven't had luck with myself but I don't use co2) in front of the stones/foreground area that won't hide the stones completely but hide the diffusion from stone to substrate.. if that made scene.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

AquaAurora said:


> Personally I like this layout for the branches (no real opinion on rocks), having them all face one way and have something dense growing by the base to hide that its several separate pieces. Perosnally like java fern or needdle or narrow leaf variety for this and have filter outflow on the wall the bases of the branches are and pointed out so the flow will make the plant (fern for this example) flow/sway gently in the direction of the branches. Then have a shorter or less dense foliage on the opposite wall of the branch bases.. But this is just a preference/dream for a future scape for me.. someday.
> 
> [added] I guess if i were using that wood and rock I'd put the rocks around the wood (near bases) to prop the branches up a bit more to get different angles/heights/etc and then do some carpet plant (still haven't had luck with myself but I don't use co2) in front of the stones/foreground area that won't hide the stones completely but hide the diffusion from stone to substrate.. if that made scene.


Something like this? I propped up the first piece using the rock at the base. I would use my Belem to carpet the left side and along the front to the right corner the use the blyxa japonica and auberti to full in the midground gap of the branches. I would also use flame moss on the tips of the branches the use the stems I have to fill out the back s. Belem, rotola Ceylon, wallachi, pantanal, tonina, etc..


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

As a guideline, never arrange rocks when you're arranging wood; leave them out. Only when the wood is perfect can you supplement the details with rocks. This changes if the main focus is rock and wood is there to supplement.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

That looks nice, the photo before it is also a nice view (but again I'm biased b this layout style). While you take in tips from others on layout make sure to take the time to decide if *you *like the scape, you'll be the one looking at it the most, and it sucks to set something up, plants and all.. then want to re-scape immediately. Gl settling on one you like, you got some nice wood to work with though ^^


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

AquaAurora said:


> While you take in tips from others on layout make sure to take the time to decide if *you *like the scape, you'll be the one looking at it the most, and it sucks to set something up, plants and all.. then want to re-scape immediately.


Do you know why Corona is the fifth best selling beer? It's all due to marketing to young people's ignorance (1). They see Corona's commercials and that gets ingrained into their psyche so when they turn 17 and want to party, they go a 7-Eleven with a fake ID, and buy what they know. No one who enjoys beer for taste would ever recommend Corona. It's one of the worst tasting beers of all time (2). I get disgusted watching people drink it. I want to puke.

The point is that most people don't have good taste. Taste is cultivated through time, knowledge, experience, understanding, and criticism. Without these factors, it's impossible to know whether or not you have bad taste if all you drink is Corona or Bud Light (3). That's why seeking the opinions of those who are more experienced and knowledgeable is the smart thing to do because they can tell you the pros and cons; they help you think critically and exposes your ignorance. By learning and experiencing things of better quality, taste can be cultivated.

The current state of aquascaping is like Corona; the taste is quite low. Like eating chocolate with orange juice. People should know not to eat chocolate and drink orange juice at the same time because both will taste bad. But that happens all the time in aquascaping when elements are chosen that don't complement each other but are used anyway.

Beauty isn't as subjective like the way most people talk about it. In fact, beauty is quite objective and can be quantifiably measured. What is beautiful to one person, most people will agree. It's not enough to look - you must also see. And seeing is something that takes knowledge, experience, and understanding. This is another way of saying good taste must be present.

(1)http://www.businessweek.com/article...rona-sales-relies-on-selling-consistent-image
(2) Corona Extra has a rating of 1.69 out of 10 http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/corona-extra/742/
(3) Bud Light has a rating of 1.19/10. http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/bud-light/474/


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I'd like to think myself creative but it seldom works out that I really like my
results from scaping. The idea from lawrencia has merit as I just put in some plants one day as I was setting up a new tank and later found a few pieces of wood/rock I liked and tried to add it...try it if you like but putting in the hardscape and THEN adding the plants works better for me. So likely if the rocks were the focus they would need to be arranged first etc.
But personally I liked the first picture of the tank best. Just needed to grow in more in the back aria and had it's own distinctive style which was different from the common.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Ok. So beyond the rocks is the uniformity of the wood starting to look better? I got the wood to the point where it's horizontal and seems to flow from left to right. 

I have no problem omitting the rock as it doesn't stay with the theme if the local swamp area I was going for. The area mainly consists of thick downed trees with branchy brush popping up out of the brush. 

I can cut some of the other wood and place it sort of like how I utilized the rock.

How bout this one without rock? I realize it's not exactly horizontal but I suppose nothing in nature is. Does this seem to flow better? It's not to far off the area I'm trying to mimic.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

An artistic rule in portrait/nature drawing is no straight lines, also never perfectly horizontal nor vertical even if what you see if perfectly straight. You must change it so that there is some angle to it as it looks more natural that way.

Anyway, what is your goal here? It has since changed. Now it's focusing on the wood a lot because the pieces are very prominent compared to the original. I'd suggest you look at Takashi Amano's early aquascapes and see how he clearly used the fore, mid, and background in arranging plants and hardscape (which were minimal).


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> An artistic rule in portrait/nature drawing is no straight lines, also never perfectly horizontal nor vertical even if what you see if perfectly straight. You must change it so that there is some angle to it as it looks more natural that way.
> 
> Anyway, what is your goal here? It has since changed. Now it's focusing on the wood a lot because the pieces are very prominent compared to the original. I'd suggest you look at Takashi Amano's early aquascapes and see how he clearly used the fore, mid, and background in arranging plants and hardscape (which were minimal).


Goal is to mimic a local swamp area with the wood. It's a marshy area with a lot of fallen trees and branch clumps. It's all been kinda shifted with the water and winters so I think this looks pretty close.

The carpet of Belem in front and the blyxa in the midground will mimic the growth in the marsh while the stems in the back will act as the backdrop which is the hills beyond the marsh with trees and the colors of fall perhaps.

Not sure why I tried the rocks, just working with people's suggestions. The original plan has always been just wood.

So ya think this is too much wood. I'm assuming with plants growth lot of the lower wood will get covered.

Thanks


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## gt turbo (Sep 13, 2012)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Ok. So beyond the rocks is the uniformity of the wood starting to look better? I got the wood to the point where it's horizontal and seems to flow from left to right.
> 
> I have no problem omitting the rock as it doesn't stay with the theme if the local swamp area I was going for. The area mainly consists of thick downed trees with branchy brush popping up out of the brush.
> 
> ...


I like this wood setup but I would re-position it with a little more diagonally going from upper left to lower right.

With respect to planting. 
Dark green - Belem
Light green - Blyxa
Orange - araguaia
Red / Burgandy - Pantanal

You could also add another stem for contrast. Stems to be trimmed from left to right having the pantanal clump being the tallest.

This is my suggestion.

image by Gt Turbo 1883, on Flickr


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

gt turbo said:


> I like this wood setup but I would re-position it with a little more diagonally going from upper left to lower right.
> 
> With respect to planting.
> Dark green - Belem
> ...



Thanks so much for the colored layout GT that's awesome. So you think I should angle the wood a bit from back right towards the front a bit? I'm gonna level the substrate so it's evenly leveled in the front then inclines up towards the back.

For stems I also have S. Belem, R. Ceylon, R. Wallachi, a few Tonina, and another dark red which I forget the name. 

Should I just arrange these from left to right peaking in height with the pantanal?

Thanks


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## gt turbo (Sep 13, 2012)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Thanks so much for the colored layout GT that's awesome. So you think I should angle the wood a bit from back right towards the front a bit? I'm gonna level the substrate so it's evenly leveled in the front then inclines up towards the back.
> 
> For stems I also have S. Belem, R. Ceylon, R. Wallachi, a few Tonina, and another dark red which I forget the name.
> 
> ...


When I said angle the wood I meant the entire arrangement not just one piece and I assumed the angle you took the picture from was the front of the layout, if so then I would angle the entire wood arrangement more towards the front right (the same side as the pantanal).

Level the substrate as you wish. It would look fine.

Not just arrange but trim the stems that way. I would suggest mixing the stems up and not just planting one type next to the other but break them up into clumps. Think about a forest or field, you find bunches of the same type close together due to seeds falling to the ground but you also see other types mixed in. So I would go for that type of arrangement. The reason I didn't do it with the Pantanal is because I wanted it to be a focal point. So with the wood slightly re-positioned you can then plant it close to the wood, close to a third of the way in from the right side.

I hope I have been a bit clearer.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

gt turbo said:


> When I said angle the wood I meant the entire arrangement not just one piece and I assumed the angle you took the picture from was the front of the layout, if so then I would angle the entire wood arrangement more towards the front right (the same side as the pantanal).
> 
> Level the substrate as you wish. It would look fine.
> 
> ...


Yep makes complete sense GT. I appreciate it. Really hoping this hard scape works out as I don't want to mess with it again for a while. Would just like to enjoy the gardening and fish for a while

Thanks again!


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Unless your doing an iwaqumi I won't worry too much about every detail of the wood since it will change (what's visible/what's not). In fact I would put the substrate in first and then position the wood. Then you could decide what plants would work best since some of the wood will and can be hidden by the substrate. Dont throw out those rocks yet, because they can be used in a minor capacity, buy burying them in the substrate around certain spots if you want. Once buried there size won't compete with the main wood hardscape. 

I've had some poor hardscape setups (didn't have the right pieces) that turned out pretty good once the plants grew in.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

That last arrangement is really getting on my nerves! I feel like I'm being jabbed in the stomach and patted on the chin. It really doesn't work.

Due to the shape of the tank, 18x18x18 cube, it makes it a bit more difficult to arrange than a rectangular one because more care must be made for the fore to aft transitions. You have more space in the background so there can be 2-3 levels of fore, mid, and background.

As for the wood, there probably shouldn't be such varying sizes that don't balance each other both in visual weight and aesthetics. Keep it uniform.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> That last arrangement is really getting on my nerves! I feel like I'm being jabbed in the stomach and patted on the chin. It really doesn't work.
> 
> Due to the shape of the tank, 18x18x18 cube, it makes it a bit more difficult to arrange than a rectangular one because more care must be made for the fore to aft transitions. You have more space in the background so there can be 2-3 levels of fore, mid, and background.
> 
> As for the wood, there probably shouldn't be such varying sizes that don't balance each other both in visual weight and aesthetics. Keep it uniform.


I think the last hardscape arrangement is totally workable and can make an attractive aquascape. The substrate will soften the thicker branches and they can be partially hidden anyway with plants. SL not everyone wanting advise here is trying to win an aquascaping contest based on every principal and crossing every 'T' and dotting every 'I'.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> That last arrangement is really getting on my nerves! I feel like I'm being jabbed in the stomach and patted on the chin. It really doesn't work.
> 
> Due to the shape of the tank, 18x18x18 cube, it makes it a bit more difficult to arrange than a rectangular one because more care must be made for the fore to aft transitions. You have more space in the background so there can be 2-3 levels of fore, mid, and background.
> 
> As for the wood, there probably shouldn't be such varying sizes that don't balance each other both in visual weight and aesthetics. Keep it uniform.


It's a bit over two foot in length 24x18x18.

Yes the bigger wood will be covered by the plants mostly, just some of it will be visible.

What is the problem with this arrangement? Thought we were getting somewhere?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

The larger bottom wood is what's jabbing me in the stomach while the smaller branches are what's patting me on the chin. You can do one, but not both at the same time, like a love/hate relationship. Do you love me or do you hate me? Or do you love me so much that you want the world to know by putting bruises on my stomach? The larger the bruise, the larger the love? And the darker the bruise the deeper the love? I'm just kidding here and I'm not promoting spousal abuse unless the spouse in into that sort of thing. Don't have a spouse but still want to be beaten? Place an ad on Craigslist. 

Anyway, if you mentally delete the bottom big wood, what are you left with?

It will be hanging without support. As a rule, elements must support themselves. If it appears that it can't do that, it will look and feel awkward (like the leaning tower of Pisa.) It may not be obvious on the first few viewings, but eventually it will be noticed.

The wood in the current tank is uniform in size and shape and lends itself better to arrangement.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> I think the last hardscape arrangement is totally workable and can make an attractive aquascape. The substrate will soften the thicker branches and they can be partially hidden anyway with plants. SL not everyone wanting advise here is trying to win an aquascaping contest based on every principal and crossing every 'T' and dotting every 'I'.


I'm not offering advice so he can win an aquascape competition. I'm offering advice so he can keep the tank for a long time because it's peaceful and relaxing to look at. Making something beautiful isn't simple nor is it easy. It takes a lot of time, effort, learning, and adjustments.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> I'm not offering advice so he can win an aquascape competition. *I'm offering advice so he can keep the tank for a long time because it's peaceful and relaxing to look at.* Making something beautiful isn't simple nor is it easy. It takes a lot of time, effort, learning, and adjustments.


Sorry but there is no way every minute detail you criticize is necessary to change for someone to enjoy their scapes for a long time. Someone who is new to aquascaping (which is the majority here) would find a lot of satisfaction from a scape that has some 'technical' error that only an advanced scaper would notice or care about. I do agree with many of your comments, but some of the more 'petty' ones are for people trying to improve further or are entering contests and even then it might be a stretch in many situations. They are really not appropriate in this context IMO.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> Sorry but there is no way every minute detail you criticize is necessary to change for someone to enjoy their scapes for a long time. Someone who is new to aquascaping (which is the majority here) would find a lot of satisfaction from a scape that has some 'technical' error that only an advanced scaper would notice or care about. I do agree with many of your comments, but some of the more 'petty' ones are for people trying to improve further or are entering contests and even then it might be a stretch in many situations. They are really not appropriate in this context IMO.


Plants can be moved and pruned easily. The hardscape, however, cannot. It forms the skeleton of any aquascape (or sculpture) so it must be strong and properly balanced. If the skeleton is poorly arranged, the entire scape will be affected. Not everyone will notice such poor placement but I notice them immediately. For example, the Mr. Aqua ad banner above has fundamental issues with the arrangement of the rocks. The more I look, the more bothersome it becomes. I'm sure Mr. Aqua company is just trying to sell tanks, but there's a reason why they put hot models, as opposed to ugly ones, next to exotic supercars. It makes the supercar look much better even if it's kind of grotesque. Anyway, I doubt Kevin has a hot supermodel to stand next to the tank at all times so he's going to 1) get a hot supermodel girlfriend, or 2) put in the work to make the hardscape look great. If he can't make it look great, I wouldn't mind looking at a hot supermodel standing in front of the tank. :hihi:


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

So I understand I'm off base again. I just wanted a piece of wood running alon the front line to define the foreground as well as one in the back to define the mid and background.

Is the issue then that the wood pieces are not alike or is the whole arrangement just technically wrong?

Thought we were getting somewhere socielo


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

So you don't have a supermodel girlfriend to stand if front of you tank? That's disappointing. 

In terms of perspective, large pieces in front, small in the back. However, for what your goal is, the pieces need to be uniform in size. You'll need to choose one or the other. Then work on the arrangement.



> Thought we were getting somewhere socielo


The truth is I didn't want to look at page 3 because it was giving me the wrong jive and didn't want to comment until/if/when it got to page four.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Plants can be moved and pruned easily. The hardscape, however, cannot. It forms the skeleton of any aquascape (or sculpture) so it must be strong and properly balanced. If the skeleton is poorly arranged, the entire scape will be affected. Not everyone will notice such poor placement but I notice them immediately. For example, the Mr. Aqua ad banner above has fundamental issues with the arrangement of the rocks. The more I look, the more bothersome it becomes. I'm sure Mr. Aqua company is just trying to sell tanks, but there's a reason why they put hot models, as opposed to ugly ones, next to exotic supercars. It makes the supercar look much better even if it's kind of grotesque. Anyway, I doubt Kevin has a hot supermodel to stand next to the tank at all times so he's going to 1) get a hot supermodel girlfriend, or 2) put in the work to make the hardscape look great. If he can't make it look great, I wouldn't mind looking at a hot supermodel standing in front of the tank. :hihi:


That's not really true. Hardscape can be moved once a tank has been setup. Many scrapers make adjustments. It's not in cement. Also substrate levels can also change a Hardscape considerably. Have you ever physically setup a scape?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> That's not really true. Hardscape can be moved once a tank has been setup. Many scrapers make adjustments. It's not in cement. Also substrate levels can also change a Hardscape considerably. Have you ever physically setup a scape?


So you're saying that moving hardscape, underwater, with plants and fish swimming all around, is just as easy? That has not been my experience. It's best to:
1. arrange
2. let it sit for a while
3. make adjustments
4. let it sit for a while
5. repeat steps 3 and 4
6. repeat step 5
7. only when everything feels right should you stop step 6

Then planting arrangement should be considered, which is an entirely different topic but holds the same principles. Patience is a virtue in many of life's endeavors. But for some reason, many people are not patient and would rather buy a lottery ticket to get rich than to get rich through the sweat of one's brow.


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## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

Out of all of the scapes on this thread, i think this one has the most potential. Add a few smaller rocks to the base of the thicker piece of driftwood on the far right and it should be a nice hardscape to work with.

Aquascaping is certainly an art form, and as such it can be heavily critiqued. However, an artist can do what he or she wants with the advice-- accept it and change, or reject it and continue with a vision. Not everyone will like what you do, of course, but is that really the point?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> So you're saying that moving hardscape, underwater, with plants and fish swimming all around, is just as easy? That has not been my experience. It's best to:
> 1. arrange
> 2. let it sit for a while
> 3. make adjustments
> ...


Why are you throwing fish into the setup already. I don't usually add fish for at least a month. I like to fiddle around with things and make adjustments before livestock is added. Large water changes are performed to neutralize any mess. I could be wrong but based on your posts and your lack of response to multiple requests from Ua Hua that you aren't really that experienced in actually setting up aquascapes. Would that be correct?


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Well to be honest this is a well established tank with fish hence why I've been searching for all this advice and craving feedback. I am only doing this once while this livestock is still around.

I have appreciated all the advice I have on here but I must be misunderstanding socielo because I've tried many things keeping his advice in mind but can't just seem to get it.

I am inexperience but this is not my first tank so it's not my first set up. Just been trying to learn from my mistakes and create a cool natural looking aquascape. I do however do need to realize it's for my enjoyment and must be pleasing to me even if it's not technically sound. I would love to learn to create a technically sound and flowing tank.

Trial and error I guess!

I will try a few more things but I'm leaning towards something very similar to the last arrangement I posted.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

kevinmichael77 said:


> I have appreciated all the advice I have on here but I must be misunderstanding socielo because I've tried many things keeping his advice in mind but can't just seem to get it.


The issue is with the pieces of wood you've chosen for the intended image you're after. If downed trees is your goal, then you'll have to have wood that looks like downed trees. It doesn't look like that currently and it makes the tank look a lot smaller than it actually it. I'm also having a hard time imagining what you're goal is based on the arrangement you have. If I just saw the hardscape, I would imagine your goal is something else entirely.



> I am inexperience but this is not my first tank so it's not my first set up. Just been trying to learn from my mistakes and create a cool natural looking aquascape. I do however do need to realize it's for my enjoyment and must be pleasing to me even if it's not technically sound. I would love to learn to create a technically sound and flowing tank.


Have you looked at a lot of aquascapes that are close to what you're after? 
Have you sketched out (hardscape and general planting) what that goal is?


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> The issue is with the pieces of wood you've chosen for the intended image you're after. If downed trees is your goal, then you'll have to have wood that looks like downed trees. It doesn't look like that currently and it makes the tank look a lot smaller than it actually it. I'm also having a hard time imagining what you're goal is based on the arrangement you have. If I just saw the hardscape, I would imagine your goal is something else entirely.
> 
> 
> Have you looked at a lot of aquascapes that are close to what you're after?
> Have you sketched out (hardscape and general planting) what that goal is?


Ok. So here's another arrangement which hopefully is a bit more cohesive. I broke apart some of the original wood so only manzita wood will be used and possible some stones.

Goals:

1. To use this wood since I love the look of manzita!
2. To use the plants I have selected because I really enjoy the way they look and the specific colors. I understand some of the plants may not usually be used together but that's ok. 
3. Front carpet of Belem
4. Mid section of blyxa amongst the Belem
5. Araguai on the right and left mid to transition to the stems I the back.
6. Create a flow in the back highlighting and contrasting the colors. Not pictured is a few stems of r. Ceylon and R. Wallachi
7. Create a decently balanced tank I can enjoy.
8. Have a tank others would think is cool looking.

That sound feasible given what I have to work with?

Would love advice on plant placement as I think I'm going to start it in a few hours

Kev


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Wood front.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Wood from above.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Those pieces of wood are uniform and have a lot of potential if arranged properly. Interlock the pieces so that some point to the right, the others point to the left, like fingers clasped together. Use the full width of the tank. The wood is intruding upon all three layers so try to keep it just in the midground. Also, try to avoid too much height of the branches as that will block the background planting.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Those pieces of wood are uniform and have a lot of potential if arranged properly. Interlock the pieces so that some point to the right, the others point to the left, like fingers clasped together. Use the full width of the tank. The wood is intruding upon all three layers so try to keep it just in the midground. Also, try to avoid too much height of the branches as that will block the background planting.


How's this?


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

kevinmichael77 said:


> How's this?


Above.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

The pieces are still intruding into the foreground. Compress it together and think a little more vertically. Also, it's fine to have pieces resting up against the glass which will help create the height and the illusion of horizontal continuity when it's in the tank. You may need to have mock sides to simulate the tank.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Better?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

It's confined to the midground which is fine. But the branches pointing upward should be more horizonal. You can rest the branches on the side to help achieve that.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Oh I thought you meant more vertical. I can bury the one on the right a bit to get it more horizontal like this.










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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Sorry, but describing how to move complex objects with words is going to be filled with miscommunication. I meant vertical by appearing taller, but not pointed higher. The pieces on both sides that are pointing up are forming an arch (do you see it?) that is not a fallen tree image. You should be able to lean part of the wood on the side so that it is more horizontally pointed. I would avoid having the branch laying flat on the substrate as that doesn't look good.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Branch on substrate up a bit more and branch on right a bit more horizontal. Tape and rock are obviously there for support










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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

To the op I would quit while your ahead. I think your arrangement on post #67 looked like something you could work with and make a nice scape out of.


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## du3ce (Jan 26, 2013)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Better?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i like this one


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Me too


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Branch on substrate up a bit more and branch on right a bit more horizontal. Tape and rock are obviously there for support


Do you see the central arch that is formed that I mentioned before? You don't want that element there for your intended goal. You'll have to do a number of things to remove it such as 1) tilt the pieces, 2) rest the branch tips on the sides of the tank, 3) and rotate.

What you did was lift it off the substrate, but that made the angled branch even more pronounced. It's now pointing even further out of the tank so it directs the eye away. This is why you want to keep the branches more horizontal, so it keeps the focus within the tank, not outside of it.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I plan on using flame moss on the more vertical tips so perhaps that will soften the angle a bit. I'm also thinking behind that in the back left is where I will plant the Belem stems.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Flame moss is a poor choice of moss on wood as it grows and points upward. It definitely won't soften the angles. You'll have to move the wood to do that.

With that last picture, can you imagine a train tunnel with plants growing behind it? 









That's the image the arrangement lends itself best to.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Oh well. Bought and paid for already, chalk it up to inexperience again. I'll grow it out for a while and if I don't like it I'll sell it on the cheap and try Taiwan moss.


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## MadRiverPat (May 3, 2013)

Things were getting pretty tense... back to the OP, no matter what advice people give on this forum, I think the best way to learn is to give it a try for yourself. Everyone is still learning and the best way to do this is by trial and error. I personally like you're arrangement in post #67 but everyone is different regardless of experience. At the end of the day you can only really take advice with a grain of salt. The best thing to do is go with whatever you think best fits the image you have in your head. You will like it and make small adjustments over time and eventually you'll feel like you're reaching the goal and image that you had in mind.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

*Update*

So here's the scape I decided on. After all the advice and comments, which I appreciate, this is what I came up with. Although perhaps not technically sound I'm pleased with the initial results. I had a bit of trouble with plant placement and switched it around a bit but we'll see once everything grows in towards the back. The tonina is definitely outta place but it was suffering so I wanted it's own spot where it would get enough light and hopefully recover. Also the syg. Belem I got started suffering due to not planting it so I'm really hopping that digs in and starts to shoot up.

Let me know what you think!

Thanks again


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

There are a lot of issues with plant placement. It almost looks like you're going Dutch. Then the branches stick up in front of the stems which blocks the view of those plants. That's the reason why I kept mentioning it should be horizontally placed. Then the rocks look very unnatural placed under each branch.

Do you think this is better or worse than before?


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> There are a lot of issues with plant placement. It almost looks like you're going Dutch. Then the branches stick up in front of the stems which blocks the view of those plants. That's the reason why I kept mentioning it should be horizontally placed. Then the rocks look very unnatural placed under each branch.
> 
> Do you think this is better or worse than before?


I think it's better. There are definite issues but ones that I think can be easily fixed down the road. Plant wise I did want some color contrast but I'm going to wait and see once the back Belem and Ceylon grow in then can adjust accordingly. I do however like the thinner line of dhg Belem and the mid ground filled in with the japonica and auberti. I think this will give it levels and definition once the back fills in and up. 

Ya know I didn't even notice the rocks were under each branch. Oops! I did want the one on the right so I could plant the auraguai behind it.

Where would you have placed the plants? I haven't studied Dutch so any resemblance is purely accidental

Kev


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

One guideline that I strongly recommend is never use more plants than the scape requires. There are way too many species in the tank and it complicates matters exponentially. Thus, it's difficult to make suggestions keeping all of those plants in mind.

When I recommended the R. "Ceylon", I suggested that it be used as a background pallet, not an isolated bunch as you have now. I'd fill the entire background with it but this disregards the other plants you have since that's just too complicated to offer any suggestions keeping all of them in mind. Some of those plants need to go (but I'm not going to tell you which ones. You'll have to look to see which.)


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I understand. I did want to grow some plants that I really enjoy specifically the pantanal and the syng. Belem put I know I got carried away ordering plants. Should have just stayed with the dhg, blyxa, and one stem I guess but I can always change it and sell this or that once/if they all grow out. The maroon plant in the back left (I forget the name) was a gift so I just threw that in there as not to waste it, plus it grows well in this tank.


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## AquaGreenThumb (Jun 28, 2010)

I wish I saw this thread early just to let you know that I really enjoyed your op (first picture). the placement of the branches and the hairgrass growing from front to back made it really relaxing to look at. gave it depth. My only negative would be the stem plants. Doesn't seem to be any transition to the layout or might be to many variety but i really like the blyxa growing in back. I would probably take out the stems and add blyxa on that side. Wish you would of kept it.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

AquaGreenThumb said:


> I wish I saw this thread early just to let you know that I really enjoyed your op (first picture). the placement of the branches and the hairgrass growing from front to back made it really relaxing to look at. gave it depth. My only negative would be the stem plants. Doesn't seem to be any transition to the layout or might be to many variety but i really like the blyxa growing in back. I would probably take out the stems and add blyxa on that side. Wish you would of kept it.


I did like it too but like most the criticism I got there really was no definition or beginning middle and end so to speak. This new layout at least has that but your right the consensus seems to be that there is too many varieties of plants but I'd still like to see them grow out and go from there with a few little tweaks inbetween. I love working on this tank and love looking at it and listening to it but boy has it become stressful. Just never feel like I got it right, perhaps it's that way for most people, just a never ending voyage!! I do appreciate your time in making a response and hearing your feedback and advice thanks.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

You actually have a lot of nice colors and shape contrast from the plants, but the problem is that it doesn't work with the arrangement you have. If you still want to keep all of those plants (and maybe add a couple more) you should look into Dutch arrangement. If you go Dutch, you can/should remove the branches as it just gets in the way. The tank is deep enough for multiple tiers of stem plants and you can keep your carpet.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I checked out some of Tom Barrs Dutch scapes and he's got driftwood in there but it doesn't appear to be manzanita. Malaysian wood perhaps. Looks too complex for my current knowledge.

When the back grows out I actually think it might mimic the area I was trying to somewhat replicate. Plants suffered during the rescape so everything is where it is until health is restored! Don't want to stress my fish anymore. 

I will say that I wish I had a different midground plant behind the japonica. Not sure how I'm liking the auberti there, hides the curvy piece of wood that I really like. Worked a lot on that and now it's covered up.

Any cool lower growing midground plant?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Tom doesn't do strict Dutch so it's not the best example of Dutch to follow. Dutch usually doesn't add wood or other hardscape since it's actually distracting to the tiers of plants.

The issue with the B. japonica is it's similar shape to E. "belem"; they are both like blades of grass so the visual pattern is carried over too far. If you confined the B. japonica to a couple of small clumps, that could work in the layout, but definitely not so much of it. But if you insist on planting it across the mid-ground, you'll need a transition plant to break up that grass pattern, like a Riccia fluitans border. And considering that there's a lot of light in the tank, it would look pretty nice once it's pearled up.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

What if I pushed the japonica back a bit, got rid of or moved the auberti and did a border of repens or Porto Velho. Or did patches of blyxa and repens/Porto Velho throughout the middle? 

I would need to wait a bit though so the blyxa's recover and I can sell or donate them.

Kev


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Those ideas would really depend on what you're keeping or removing, hardscape and all. It's important to have a clear goal in mind so it limits your options. The more limited the options, the easier it will be.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

It would be the same scape wood wise. That will remain the same only angles may be changed. Would just move blyxa back and not have as much. This way the back piece of wood would be more visible instead of being covered by the auberti.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

What did I miss? I thought you were going with that bigger piece of DW. It looks similar to the 1st pic you posted, but the branches are more spread out. Personally I think it looked better in the 1st pic. The branches are thin and they need to be closer to 'support' each other as if they were somewhat connected. Not touching each other just supporting each other within a certain distance. The first scape really wasn't bad, you could have just moved the blyxa into the middle under the base of the branches and used a single type of background plant so the branches wouldn't get lost. The rocks right now are too big and too evenly spread apart. The middle one looks like it's dead center.

Keep in mind that once the plants grow in and you trim and let them grow out again the scape might look alot different and have more depth and interest. I've setup some scapes were I wasn't really thrilled with the hardscape and they actually turned out pretty good.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Actually this scape is similar to what I'm talking about? See how the branches are bigger, the background simple and the branches seem connected. Also the rocks play a smaller role. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=507729


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Hmm. Can't seems to get this right. Maybe I'll order some more woo from Tom Barr and have him pick something for this sized tank. I do love the wood in that link!


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Plan first, then pay for that plan. If you don't have a plan, then you could be out lots of money with nothing to show for it, at least not in the tank. Creating something good requires lots of mental effort, or a deep wallet to pay someone to do it for you.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Well I really like the branchy look I have going. I'm not totally dissatisfied, I just wish the stood out more. Thinking bigger pieces that are more pronounced. Not sure though but I have time to ponder it. Like I said I'm gonna let things grow out more and maybe make minor tweeks here an there. Still might order some
Repens or Porto Velho, that might look good where the blyxa is now and just push things back a bit. I agree something needs to seperate the Belem and the blyxa.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Well I really like the branchy look I have going. I'm not totally dissatisfied, I just wish the stood out more. Thinking bigger pieces that are more pronounced. Not sure though but I have time to ponder it. Li*ke I said I'm gonna let things grow out more and maybe make minor tweeks here an there*. Still might order some
> Repens or Porto Velho, that might look good where the blyxa is now and just push things back a bit. I agree something needs to seperate the Belem and the blyxa.


That's probably the best advise you've gotten and it's coming from you. I think your getting to much DETAILED instruction. You need to understand the major elements first instead of all the little details. Let it grow in a bit, trim, you could move rocks around a bit and if you buy more wood you can slowly replace some of your pieces if your not satisfied. This will give you a feel for what works and what doesn't. If you do something big and create a mess just do a large water change right after to keep algae at bay and the water clear.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Go figure! Yeah it's been frustrating and a bit mind numbing. I just have to let it sit for a bit and realize it's a process and just enjoy learning by process of elimination what works and doesn't work visually. I've finally got things dialed in with my ability to grow plants without killing them so this is just the next step. Will update this thread with changes for sure!


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

*Update*

So I've moved some things around as well as added and got rid of a few things. I am officially done buying plants and for now am just going to grow, trim, and shuffle things around. Everything seems to be growing well and have progressed a little in creating a bit of contrast. I have purchased new wood for another layout but am going to take my time with that one so it's a ways off on that.

Let me know what ya think.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Yep


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## someoldguy (Feb 26, 2014)

Looks good , now let it grow out!!


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Yeah grow out is a must. The Wallich, L. Red, and Rotalas grow are growing like crazy along with the original stems of pantanal. Actually had to throw some stems away here and there. Really need the Syng. Belem to kick in and then I'd be happy. Dhg Belem is flourishing again so we'll just have to wait and see.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

It's very lopsided to the right. The fore, mid, and background blends too much on the left side. Colors need to be visually balanced so you may want to pull and replant in better positions that show off the colors, e.g. "Pantanal".


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Think the pantanal should be moved towards the middle. I'm somewhat pleased with the transition of the Belem to the repens to the ludwigia backdropped by the few blyxa. Does for sure get muddy in the back with everything. Still have a few plants that need to grow such as a few tornado's and the syng Belem so hopefully by then I can get things situated a bit better. Ceylon is growing nicely as well as the Wallichi.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Moved some stuff around yesterday getting the pantanal a bit more lighting in the center and getting the Wallachi off to the right since it was growing like crazy. Seems a bit more balanced so we shall see. Really wish the syng. Belem would take off but the tops seems to be getting a nicer green color so hopefully that's a good sign.


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## Joost (Feb 13, 2014)

I´d say the tank looks great. Not quite sure about the wood though.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

*Update*

Been through a lot of battles here with my tank. Lots of algae issues and layout quandaries. Seems to be an endless battle but I think I've figured out the issues and have changed things around a bit. Just wanted to update and get more criticism on the different layout.

This is post algae/plant removal.. Adding new plants and moving things around.

Let me know if any progress has been made.

Kev


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