# Fish TB: Bleach or Euth and Move On?



## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

Im gonna disagree that fish tb is in every tank. what kind of fish do you have? what is the age of the fish? what are your water parameters? i think the only way to get a true diagnosis is by a vet. do you have any symptoms? like rashes on your arms? it could just be a case of poor breeding.


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

The bacterium that can cause what is called Fish TB, is present in a lot of places - fish tanks included. Lots of fish tanks as they are a great breeding ground for bacteria. But... thousands of other strains of bacteria are also hanging around our fish tanks waiting for an opportunity to propagate. 
That doesn't mean - well actually it does - the world is intrinsically a dangerous place. Healthy fish and healthy people tend to not succumb to the vast majority of nastys we encounter. 

The question should be, are you doing foolish things that would facilitate an infectious case of some bacteria?

If you have had a bad bacterial infestation of a tank, then sterilizing everything associated with that tank is a good idea. A bleach sanitizing solution is simple and generally effective.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Combo with bleach and extremely hot water is a sure bet.


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

Fish tb is contagious to humans by presenting its self as rashes on hands and arms of fish keepers. i just think if it were that common there would be millions or at least 1000's of us talking about that here and getting scripts at the dr. There is more than one cause of bent spines if that is what you are seeing. i would euthanize the fish anyway because i wouldnt want it to breed. But thats just me.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't have any fish with symptoms of TB, but I do have OCD and my hands have been chapped and bleeding since I was about 13. I've been keeping fish for about 5 years, and I don't wear gloves or anything to work on my tanks (although I do wash my hands before and after). I just think that if fish TB were as dangerous and contagious as people say ("if you have even one fish with it, the only treatment is to bleach the whole tank"), I would have caught it by now.

This is what my germaphobic mind sees: 100,000+ fish go though a pet store per year. If just 1% of those fish have TB and the tank equipment is shared and employees stick their hands in the tanks and touch drystock without washing their hands first, chances are the entire pet store is infected with the disease. If you go into your house with a bag of fish without washing your hands _every step of the way_, you'll get the disease on your doorknobs and light switches, from which it will be carried to many other surfaces, even if you wash your hands after you handle the fish. 

If this disease were that easy to spread and transmit to humans, a large percentage of people who work at pet stores and keep fish would have it, right? Personally, I think this is the kind of disease that either requires some kind of mutation or needs a different kind of bacteria to act as an "activator" to allow it to infect humans. And if this disease _isn't_ that easy to spread, then surely bleaching an infected tank isn't necessary?


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## esteroali (Oct 24, 2007)

*Fish tb*

I have had fish TB in my hand and it is NOT FUN!! Cull fish. No fish is worth your health and put on a UV filter. I agree fish TB is ubiquitous but I believe keeping the bacteria count low will decrease infection transmission.
After my hand was diagnosed as fish TB, I realized I had a diseased Peacock Gudgeon in my affected tank. I culled it and sent the body off for histopathology ( I am a vet) and it was in fact Mycobacterium. No other fish have shown any signs of illness in the past six months.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

How many other people have caught it, though? For all we know, you have some kind of genetic predisposition to the disease. I agree that infected fish should be culled, but I disagree with bleaching the tank as if it were a fish version of MRSA.

Seriously, fish are the third-most popular pet in the USA. How many Petcos, PetSmarts, and mom and pop stores carry fish with TB without any workers catching it? Granted, there could be undiagnosed cases, but if it were as dangerous as people say, then surely after 50+ years of mass fish breeding and selling, people would notice a trend of infections? How many people with weaker immune systems (like children, cancer patients, old people, and normal people who get sick) keep fish from those same pet stores without catching fish TB?

BTW, Esteroali, have you reported your infection to the CDC or anything like that? There could be a locally-developed strain of the disease that is more prone to infecting humans, and they should probably be told about your case.


Note: I changed the title of this thread to better reflect the discussion here. I realized the original title implied ignoring the disease, which is not what I meant.


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## flip9 (Jun 16, 2011)

Just dont forget to wear your skin in the morning and youll be alright 

Fish TB is an opportunistic pathogen, so if your immunity is in shape and healthy then its not a problem. 

Even if you have a weak immunity, fish TB is probably the last thing you should be worried about compared to 1000 other things that will kill you.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

flip9 said:


> Just dont forget to wear your skin in the morning and youll be alright
> 
> Fish TB is an opportunistic pathogen, so if your immunity is in shape and healthy then its not a problem.
> 
> Even if you have a weak immunity, fish TB is probably the last thing you should be worried about compared to 1000 other things that will kill you.


So... getting fish TB is no more dangerous or likely than getting salmonella from eggs and people shouldn't worry about it? No bleaching, just euth the fish that shows symptoms as if it had any other incurable disease and then move on?

Basically, is this disease harmless enough that you could sell fish or plants from a previously-infected tank in good conscience, even if you didn't tell the buyer about it?


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## redfalconf35 (Feb 24, 2008)

Fishly said:


> So... getting fish TB is no more dangerous or likely than getting salmonella from eggs and people shouldn't worry about it? No bleaching, just euth the fish that shows symptoms as if it had any other incurable disease and then move on?


That's what i'd do. It's just like touching door knobs or using the bathroom in a public place... There's a non-zero chance of you (or fish) catching something, but we all have immune systems, and if we take common sense precautions (washing hands, not selling fish immediately after discovering fish TB), the chances are minimal. In fact they're so minimal that this is the first time i've ever heard of fish TB, and i've been on this forum for years.


> Basically, is this disease harmless enough that you could sell fish or plants from a previously-infected tank in good conscience, even if you didn't tell the buyer about it?


I would definitely wait for a while (a month or so) to make sure that none of the other fish show symptoms, and then i would feel that i could sell fish in good conscience.


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

If my fish showed any sign of disease like white spot, swelling, pale, or even behavior was off in anyway i would not sell or even give away these fish. i also would not add any fish to a tank that had been properly diagnosed with tb. i believe i would tear down a vet tested tb tank and cull all fish.


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## esteroali (Oct 24, 2007)

*Fish TB in my hand*

I had an EXTREMELY deep cut under my finger where my wedding ring is. I also had a KNOWN sick fish in my tank. I was either unaware or unwilling to acknowledge the risk. I did not used to wash my hands after being in the tank, needless to say I ALWAYS wash my hands after now. FWIW I think that culling fish and maintaining proper hand hygiene is sufficient to avoid future disease contraction. Fish Mycobacterium is not a reportable disease and the infectious disease specialist I went to has seen less that a dozen cases in her career. I self diagnosed it before seeing her because of my medical background and fish keeping experience.
If I have open cuts on my hand I keep out of my tanks, PERIOD.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

amcoffeegirl said:


> If my fish showed any sign of disease like white spot, swelling, pale, or even behavior was off in anyway i would not sell or even give away these fish. i also would not add any fish to a tank that had been properly diagnosed with tb. i believe i would tear down a vet tested tb tank and cull all fish.


Totally agree with this.


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## jreich (Feb 11, 2009)

from what i have read in the past its more likely you will hit the lottery than contract fish TB.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

amcoffeegirl said:


> If my fish showed any sign of disease like white spot, swelling, pale, or even behavior was off in anyway i would not sell or even give away these fish. i also would not add any fish to a tank that had been properly diagnosed with tb. i believe i would tear down a vet tested tb tank and cull all fish.





jreich said:


> from what i have read in the past its more likely you will hit the lottery than contract fish TB.


Uh, which is it?

I agree that selling fish when they are sick or without quarantining them after being in contact with a sick fish is wrong. However, if fish TB is incurable and any tank with the fish in it is to be treated like infectious waste, then people should assume that every fish they get has been exposed to the disease. Also, most pet stores should be treated as though they carry the plague.



esteroali said:


> Fish Mycobacterium is not a reportable disease and the infectious disease specialist I went to has seen less that a dozen cases in her career.


Does that mean the government knows about it and has decided it's not a dangerous disease or that the government isn't aware of how dangerous it can be? And if she has seen so few cases, is that because no one is getting infected or because no one is getting diagnosed correctly?


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

Fishly said:


> I don't have any fish with symptoms of TB


 
why do you think your fish have tb?


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

amcoffeegirl said:


> why do you think your fish have tb?


I never said I did. I started this as a discussion thread. I was just reading an old post about fish TB and wanted to see what others thought about the issue. Most places online say it's incurable, hard to disinfect (bleach isn't strong enough, apparently ), and if even one of your fish has it, you should euth every fish in the tank (showing symptoms or not) and either bleach or throw away all the dry stock that has come into contact with the tank. It's presented like it's aquatic anthrax or something, which doesn't seem appropriate to me.

The main questions here are: 
1. How dangerous is fish TB to fish? 
-Is the disease so easily transmitted that even if you have only one fish showing symptoms, you should cull every fish in the tank? 
-Does every infected fish show symptoms?
2. How dangerous is fish Tb to humans? 
-How easily is it transmitted to humans? 
-How long does the disease live on dry surfaces? 
-Can you get it just by touching plants (or other things) that have been in exposed tanks?

Those that say the disease is very transmittable to fish and humans don't seem to realize that (if it is as easily caught and difficult to treat as they say) *every pet store has been exposed*. Since almost all fish come from pet stores or from tanks that have had pet store fish/plants in them, most of the fish in the hobby have been exposed, *including theirs*.

On the other hand, if the disease isn't that dangerous, then surely removing the infected fish and quarantining the tank for a certain time (the same thing you would do if the fish had dropsy) is all you need to do- no need for bleach, gloves, or tearing down the tank.


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

Ah ok now i get it. i think the key is just to watch your fish. keep them happy and healthy. with proper water conditions and a varied diet. if something bad happens then you know you did the best for them. i have read there was a lady who kept some tb white clouds she just did proper water changes for years and they bred for her and then they finally died out. she never added any fish to the tank other than the babies that were born. Ive also read of guppy breaders who got some kind of virus in the tank (not tb) and wiped out almost all the tanks of 1000s of show winning guppies. again just know the fish "normal" behavior and watch for changes. take care


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