# Cardinal tetras in new tank, gasping for breath?



## _alex_ (Apr 22, 2016)

What are water parameters? Do you have any surface agitation for gas exchange? May be going through cycle and have nitrite or ammonia 


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

Are they gasping at the water surface?

If there is plenty of surface agitation, then their gills may have been harmed by ammonia or nitrites. Check ammonia and nitrites.
If surface agitation is minimal, there just may not be enough dissolved oxygen or you are injecting too much co2.

Either way, do a water change as it would remove dangerous levels of ammonia, nitrite or co2, and add in more dissolved oxygen, so that would provide a quick temporary "fix" until you can address the actual cause of the issue.


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

_alex_ said:


> What are water parameters? Do you have any surface agitation for gas exchange? May be going through cycle and have nitrite or ammonia
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk






WaterLife said:


> Are they gasping at the water surface?
> 
> If there is plenty of surface agitation, then their gills may have been harmed by ammonia or nitrites. Check ammonia and nitrites.
> If surface agitation is minimal, there just may not be enough dissolved oxygen or you are injecting too much co2.
> ...



Jeez I hope they haven't been permanently hurt by something. And no they aren't at the surface but I have never seen them go to the surface. I took a measurement last week when I added them and I think it might not have been 100% cycled. Because there was a little ammonia and nitrite in it. I mean both <1, probably around .5. But today it was ~0 ammonia, ~0 nitrite, nitrates ~15-20. Just a barely noticable hue off the 0 color on my API chart. PH ~7. Temp ~75. 

The CO2 level will be really low because I have been insanely ill for the last week. So I haven't been running my lights or CO2 for about 5 days.

I'm not sure how to gauge the surface agitation as far as normal -- so here is a video of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO2hK06nnr4


I was getting ready to do a water change today anyway cause it's been 1 week since I added them.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

You've got enough agitation for dissolved oxygen. CO2 shouldn't be a problem either.

Other possibilities for fish rapidly breathing are gill flukes/gill disease (or any other microorganisms that can damage gill tissue, such as ich). You would need some med for treatment if this was the case.

Damage to the gill tissue from higher ammonia levels is still a possibility. Nitrites can deprive blood cells from carrying oxygen (which is nicknamed Brown Blood/Gill Disease), so the fish breathes more rapidly to try and get more oxygen. Depending on the extent of damage, fish can still recover.

They could just be breathing rapidly simply due to stress of being in a new tank/environment (scary/stressful to them) and they would just need some time to settle down. Or there are other stressors (not enough hiding areas, too bright light, scared of you, etc) that cause them to panic and increase heart and respiration rates. Though, a weeks time they should already be fairly settled in and not so stressed.

If you can, I would request filming the behavior and showing us so we can see if there is something wrong or if it is just normal and nothing to worry about.
Any other symptoms? (odd swimming, darting, not eating, staying still, faded color, flashing/rubbing/scratching themselves against objects, etc)


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

WaterLife said:


> You've got enough agitation for dissolved oxygen. CO2 shouldn't be a problem either.
> 
> Other possibilities for fish rapidly breathing are gill flukes/gill disease (or any other microorganisms that can damage gill tissue, such as ich). You would need some med for treatment if this was the case.
> 
> ...


here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3e3fW8cVws

When I got up this morning I noticed a couple of them breathing much faster than they have been before...really fast (I got a bit of this on the video).

I did a ~30% water change today. The video is an hour after the water change. No changes so far.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Yeah, its hard to recommend anything short of adding a few bottles of aerated distilled O2 to improve conditions for them
We would normally start treatment for that with methylene blue and salt, both not recommended with cardinals.


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

Nordic said:


> Yeah, its hard to recommend anything short of adding a few bottles of aerated distilled O2 to improve conditions for them
> We would normally start treatment for that with methylene blue and salt, both not recommended with cardinals.


So do you think the problem stems from lack of oxygen?


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Maybe but that could be from injuries to gills too or nitrite or ammonia poisoning, which is why one normally use the products I mentioned.
Water needs to go pretty rancid for things to suffocate in it.
Maybe look up if there are safe levels for your species. I know one can get away with half doses on some species of tetras and some can handle a bit of salt for a while.



> What can I add to make nitrite less toxic to the fish?
> Aquarium salt (sodium chloride) has long been used as an aid to reducing the toxicity of nitrite, because it has been shown to prevent methaemoglobinemia under certain conditions.
> 
> Some fishkeepers don't like using salt, but in my experience, when used at the correct dosage, it's never caused problems for any fish, even stereotypically salt-intolerant species. A fairly low level of salt can have a significant effect on reducing the toxicity of nitrite, so you don't need to add very much.
> ...


Frequently asked questions on nitrite | Features | Practical Fishkeeping


Methylene blue increases O2 levels in the blood.


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

Nordic said:


> Maybe but that could be from injuries to gills too or nitrite or ammonia poisoning, which is why one normally use the products I mentioned.
> Water needs to go pretty rancid for things to suffocate in it.
> Maybe look up if there are safe levels for your species. I know one can get away with half doses on some species of tetras and some can handle a bit of salt for a while.
> 
> ...


So if my nitrite levels are currently 0 what would be the point of adding salt?

Would getting an airstone help?


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

The point is that if it was high recently they may suffer from poisoning.
Just because I give you a clean bowl of porridge doesn't mean you won't fall ill from the poisoned one you had before.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Cardinals are tough to keep many times to begin with, in a new tank even tougher.


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

Nordic said:


> The point is that if it was high recently they may suffer from poisoning.
> Just because I give you a clean bowl of porridge doesn't mean you won't fall ill from the poisoned one you had before.


Alright gotcha... So you think the first thing I ought to do it get some aquarium salt and add the dosage from that FAQ?


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

That is what I would try, you can break the dosage into 3 parts and add it over a period of time so the fish can get used to it.


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## ibebian (Jan 11, 2016)

Do you know that what you're seeing is not the normal tetra demeanor? They tend to be a little more jerky and frenetic in their motions and move their pectoral fins at the same time as their mouths. I always found it a part of their charm. 

If your params look okay, they're not gasping at the surface, and no other clear signs of distress, I would just keep observing instead of rushing to treat something that may not exist and may just be because you care a lot and want to make sure they're okay. Call it new tank parent syndrome?


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

If a fish's fins are fully extended, it is normally not feeling too bad.
The fish in the video seem to act normal for tetras. Even zebrafish sometimes do the biting at invisible things in the water bit.


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## sevendust111 (Jul 15, 2014)

My rummys do something like this a few times a week for a couple of hours. I think this may be normal. Some of the rummys I've have for years.


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

So I just sat and really looked closely for a while. It seems that most of them are breathing fast but I'll look back and they will be breathing relatively normally. But there is one who is breathing big gasps of air as fast as it can and hasn't stopped.

The only thing different I could notice is that it seemed to have a slightly swollen stomach. Here is a picture of that one. It is also behaving different. straying off from the pack more often than any of the others.


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## ibebian (Jan 11, 2016)

Hm that swollen stomach def seems weird. I had that with some black neons at one point and they ultimately succumbed, not sure if that was the direct cause but it also didn't affect the rest of the school.


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

ibebian said:


> Hm that swollen stomach def seems weird. I had that with some black neons at one point and they ultimately succumbed, not sure if that was the direct cause but it also didn't affect the rest of the school.


Also you asked about a video, I posted a longer video of them on the last page of the thread (a little ways down) take a look.


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## BrynnaCC (Jan 5, 2014)

Just off what I see on your video, my cardinals do this behavior all the time, and I've had them for over a year. I think it's normal for them. Also if they are displaying stress behaviors like rapid breathing when you come over to look, I think it's very easy for all of us to forget that we are a giant beast coming at them, even when we move slowly and deliberately. It might take them a while to get used to you in their new environment.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

BrynnaCC said:


> Just off what I see on your video, my cardinals do this behavior all the time, and I've had them for over a year. I think it's normal for them. Also if they are displaying stress behaviors like rapid breathing when you come over to look, I think it's very easy for all of us to forget that we are a giant beast coming at them, even when we move slowly and deliberately. It might take them a while to get used to you in their new environment.


I agree, I watched the video and they sure looked normal to me. Fins erect, not gasping at the surface, schooling. They look just like my cardinals.
Are they eating?


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

*Just got home and that fish that was gasping is dead on the bottom of the tank. 
*

Again, compared to the others I could tell that one was in srs trouble. But I am worried about the others now.

They have been eating but have been being extreme picky... I'm not sure if they are getting enough. I've got the Hikari micro pellets. I will sprinkle them in and they will be all over them while they are falling through the water...But then only sometimes will they pick at them on the substrate. They leave probably half of what I give them sitting on the substrate and I'm not giving them more than about a pinch twice a day.

Should also note I had a couple amanos in here and they both died as well over the week. I feel like I've done everything pretty by the book. Not sure what's going on.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I was just about to say it, with these small minnow type fish, if one segregates itself, it I time to cull. Not worth trying to save.


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## ibebian (Jan 11, 2016)

Eesh I'm sorry to hear that. I doubt it's an issue of starvation, even if they're not eating til they're full it sounds like they get enough to subsist. Was this the one with the swollen stomach? How much time has it been since you first noticed it?

Perhaps try doing a full round of testing, taking extra care to shake the bottles really well. If these all look normal, and given the relatively acute nature of the deaths, it's possible you have some kind of contaminant in the water (or residual effect of cycling as Nordic mentioned). These may be silly questions but in the in the interest of being thorough, are you sticking your hands in there after washing with soap? Is there a cover on the tank and if not, could something like an aerosol make its way in there?


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## ibebian (Jan 11, 2016)

Another possibility is to look into tap water issues, perhaps heavy metal leaching. Mercury, Lead, and things of that sort actually affect fish more easily than it would for humans in drinking water.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

@SeahawkDDS sorry for the late reply. Most of the video was out of focus, but if everyone would pay attention to the cardinals mouths, they are moving rapidly, which is not normal. Tetras twitching in their movements/hovering is normal, though when comfortable they don't twitch like that, so that means they are stressed.

I think I have found what is causing the issue. In your first threads, I remember you used Ammonia with surfactants and you didn't dispose or full clean the now contaminated items. I suspect those surfactants (or any other chemicals if it happened to be scented or what not) is what is causing the issues.

Like I said, you have plenty of surface agitation for oxygen and co2 levels are low so those are not the issues. Damage from ammonia or nitrite poisoning is still possible, but after seeing the video, I doubt it. The remaining survivors, I would place them into another bucket, I bet they after a little time to recover, they won't be rapidly breathing like that.
I don't think you would have to scrap the plants, but the contaminated substrate (and probably any driftwood) would likely have to go. The rocks are probably reusable, but I might bleach dip them and give them a good scrub and rinse.

The other infections I have talked about, I really doubt those are the case here, as the fish would have protruding gills and usually are at the water surface.
I really do suspect it's the surfactants or some other toxic chemical.

Pretty sure you dechlorinate your water and you really don't have ammonia (from chloramines).
The cardinals are the only ones in there right?

As for the swollen cardinal stomach, it's not guaranteed, but when fish's immune systems are severely compromised (which any stressors/toxins can do), ulcers and other diseases can form fast. I have no idea what kind of effects surfactants would have on fish, but I still would lean towards that being the issue.


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

WaterLife said:


> @SeahawkDDS sorry for the late reply. Most of the video was out of focus, but if everyone would pay attention to the cardinals mouths, they are moving rapidly, which is not normal. Tetras twitching in their movements/hovering is normal, though when comfortable they don't twitch like that, so that means they are stressed.
> 
> I think I have found what is causing the issue. In your first threads, I remember you used Ammonia with surfactants and you didn't dispose or full clean the now contaminated items. I suspect those surfactants (or any other chemicals if it happened to be scented or what not) is what is causing the issues.
> 
> ...


I am totally naive to the subject but I still have a hard time believing that was an error of such huge proportions considering the response and limitations of it. (A few capfuls followed by multiple immediate 100% water changes and removal/cleaning of everything but the scaping materials. 

I don't even know how to approach that...If I throw away relatively everything and clean everything my cycling will need to be restarted....So I would have to keep the fish in the bucket for a month or two?

If this is honestly the case and it is deemed I will need to start over....I will just find a local home for these surviving tetras and sell everything.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I would put a couple of Harlequin Rasboras or another good starter fish and study their behavior. See if they act the same way as the cardinals. Cardinals get stressed very easily which compromises there immune systems and makes them highly susceptible to things in the water. It doesn't take much, probably levels that might not even be showing up on your test kits. Or they can easily pick up a parasite or something due to their immune systems.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

I do not know the effects surfactants or whatever else chemicals may have been in the ammonia product would cause on fish, so I can't say for certain that they are what caused the deaths. Nor do I know how hard or easy it is to remove those contaminants once introduced to a system. A process of elimination would be needed to figure out what is causing the issue.

As I've said, low oxygen levels or too high co2 levels do not seem to be an issue. Damage from ammonia and/or nitrite poisoning is still possible, though I am not sure what levels they were exposed to and for how long, I personally have doubts enough damage to the gills would have been done to the fish to cause death without there being much else signs (faded colors, other infections taking place, etc). I have seen fish live through and die from elevated ammonia and nitrite levels and the fish in the video do not appear to show many other symptoms that would be related.

I've talked about the other gill infections also, and why I don't think they are likely.

So I would narrow my guess down to the fish dying from the surfactants or other possible chemicals in the ammonia product, or from some other toxin (aerosols or soap residue on your hands, etc) that made it's way into your aquarium. Either that or maybe the collected rocks have some contaminants. But that is just my guess from where I am sitting and the info given. I do encourage you to rule these out for yourself rather than call it quits. It may not be the surfactants or rocks. Maybe there is more chlorine in the water than you realize? Chloramines (what dechlorinator are you using?)? Any toxic paint used? Maybe the fish really do have some infection or parasites (to me, unlikely to be the cause)? Are all of them breathing fast (vid was out of focus)? Just trying to help figure this out.

If anyone else see any other plausible explanation, let me know.

By the way, inverts don't get the same diseases as fish so their deaths probably (likely the fish as well) are from ammonia/nitrite poisoning or toxic substances.

If it is toxic substances, try using activated carbon/charcoal in the filter before tearing the tank apart.


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## ibebian (Jan 11, 2016)

If you used some kind of cleaner then that could certainly be it, even with several 100% water changes. I don't see that on here so it must have been another post.

The carbon is a good idea, and perhaps overdosing prime can help in the immediate (though only the ammonia and metals aspect, the slime coat is debatable).


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

I really do appreciate you guys helping me out as this tank has been one nightmare after another even with all the research/time I have been putting into it. -- and I still have no idea what to do.

The only material I have put in the tank was a silicone polymer type putty to seal something up which has been necessary to the tank working, which is a dental material for use in humans that is really inert. Only thing I can think of is that it does release some hydrogen gas while setting.

The story with the chemical was I was trying to fishless cycle with ammonia and got 'pure ammonia' that ended up having a surfactant in it. I put in a capful or so (5ml?) then realized my mistake about 20 minutes later. 100% water out, threw filters away, wiped down everything I could. Another 100% water change.

I really don't know how to judge how fast the others are breathing but it was nothing like that one fish that died which was gasping for air nonstop. The ones that are still there take a lot a little breaths, I mean watching them here now it's probably for a 1-2 mouth-opens every second.

I'm using prime. My filters have carbon in them.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Honestly I think as I've mentioned it's just cardinals being very sensitive to new tanks that aren't 'fully' cycled. Test kits aren't that precise. If there's still some nitrite it will affect them. See if another tried and true fish does the same think, like the harleys.


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> Honestly I think as I've mentioned it's just cardinals being very sensitive to new tanks that aren't 'fully' cycled. Test kits aren't that precise. If there's still some nitrite it will affect them. See if another tried and true fish does the same think, like the harleys.


This would be fine but I am worried to just starting killing a bunch more fish.

I'm gonna do another run of test kit right now and take a picture.


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## cdntanks (Nov 21, 2014)

If your municipality has a website which posts water quality details regularly, it may be worth taking a look at any updates there. Several years ago our municipality--without notice--injected extra chlorine to deal with water quality issues in the pipes. This caused many with fish a lot of grief, including the local university where a number of their fish in research programs were killed. As I'm sure you know, chlorine does serious damage to gill membranes.

Some water systems have distributed chlorine injection systems and if you happen to live close to one your tap water may take a higher concentration hit when heavy runoff occurs, work on piping systems, etc.--depends on your water reservoir source, etc. Using extra Prime and aeration might help with any water changes.


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## ibebian (Jan 11, 2016)

Another possibility, albeit a cumbersome and more expensive one, is to try RO. Theoretically if you had 100% WC to RO/DI and depending if you still see the issues over the course of a week, then you can probably rule out issues with tap (something leaching from the tank or remnant cycling would still be on the table), or isolate the problem to the tap. Not really a solution and kind of annoying I know [emoji53]


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

Here is a recent (2014) water report from my supplier. 

https://www.owasa.org/Data/Sites/1/media/whatWeDo/drinking water/2014-owasa-water-quality-report.pdf


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## cdntanks (Nov 21, 2014)

That's a helpful report. Gives you some heads-up about what's in your water and when you may want to be extra careful with your water changes. Knowing they use both chlorine and chloramine plus they inject some extra shots during certain times of the year, is useful. They even mention drawing down large volumes of municipal water during times of forest fire-fighting which may also introduce wide fluctuations in treatment chemicals. Have a look at sections 3 and 4 of the following, some interesting bits of info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine

We tend to get into habits with treating our water for water changes, using X ml of Prime per bucket volume, etc. As you can see, the actual municipal water treatments can vary over time and with events, so it's possible to get spikes that could cause problems---note that the limits set in the report are averaged values. I always treat my water with ample Prime before it goes near the tank.

Species like Cardinals and Roseline Barbs make very good water sensors.


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## SeahawkDDS (Mar 14, 2016)

cdntanks said:


> That's a helpful report. Gives you some heads-up about what's in your water and when you may want to be extra careful with your water changes. Knowing they use both chlorine and chloramine plus they inject some extra shots during certain times of the year, is useful. They even mention drawing down large volumes of municipal water during times of forest fire-fighting which may also introduce wide fluctuations in treatment chemicals. Have a look at sections 3 and 4 of the following, some interesting bits of info:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine
> 
> ...


Is it dangerous to overtreat with prime (I mean, within reasonable limits)?... And you know what is funny, I actually thought tetras (thus, cardinals) were a hearty fish. I realize now I was very wrong!


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Always assume that you're treating for a strong % of Chlorine/Chloramine even if the water district doses low amounts. I lost a tankful of my favorite fish due to an unexpected spike in Chloramine. So yeah, I'd be treating a little on the strong side with Prime. Within reason it's fine in stronger doses.

The problem with Cardinals is that most are wild caught and will be a bit stressed/possibly have parasites/disease by the time they reach the LFS. There are some tank raised Cardinals, but you have to ask your LFS owner or a knowledgeable employee.

Neons are a better bet for tank raised.


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## cdntanks (Nov 21, 2014)

Came across this helpful older feedback in another forum from Seachem about residual Prime. It appears if not grossly overused Prime will be consumed in about 24 hours.

Prime Overdose? - Page 2 - Seachem - Aquatic Plant Central


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## ibebian (Jan 11, 2016)

cdntanks said:


> Came across this helpful older feedback in another forum from Seachem about residual Prime. It appears if not grossly overused Prime will be consumed in about 24 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Overdose? - Page 2 - Seachem - Aquatic Plant Central




Prime can be dosed up to I believe 5x according to the bottle, and yeah I can corroborate prime is no longer in your tank after 24-48 hours (I emailed them once about this).


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