# GLA GRO1 Regulator so DISAPPOINTED



## uMc (Apr 12, 2012)

The regulator is 8 days old but it has 2 problems
1. The solenoid LED stopped working i emailed GLA they said the led needs to adjust by unscrew the flat screw on the back of the power supply then re-adjust it. I tried to push the LED to the side with a little force instead of unscrew the screw and then the led light up but it just temporary if i touch the solenoid the led will stop working again. 
2. the regulator is leaking.. the full 5lb tank was 900, a week later is 800 but i run the co2 about 2-2.5 hours with 2-3bps a day... i don't have the timer yet so i run the co2 after i got home from work. i found out the leak because it is impossible to use that much of co2 in a week.

here's the leak.. sorry for the video quality.. use one hand though


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Mine also is an absolute piece of junk, for different reasons. Its wildly inconsistent from one day to the next, so bad Im using a flow meter now with the GLA needle valve wide open. Also has a severe eotd once the pressure starts dropping, which wouldnt be so bad if "no eotd" wasnt one of their main selling points

I'll never own another one


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## uMc (Apr 12, 2012)

burr740 said:


> Mine also is an absolute piece of junk, for different reasons. Its wildly inconsistent from one day to the next, so bad Im using a flow meter now with the GLA needle valve wide open. Also has a severe eotd once the pressure starts dropping, which wouldnt be so bad if "no eotd" wasnt one of their main selling points
> 
> I'll never own another one


many people here recommended the GLA that's why i ordered it but it turned out so disappointed.. maybe you and i got a bad ones or after it became a well known product GLA uses low quality parts instead of the original ones?
what am i going to do with it now? ship it back to GLA or use the silicon to seal it? i spent that much of money for the regulator and then i have to fix it before i can use? :frown2:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Don't they come with a warranty?

Worst, worst case - your credit card issuer should be your friend.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

You should never use silicone to seal threads. I’d try just tightening the nipple before shipping it back. If tightening it doesn’t work then remove the nipple, clean, apply new Teflon tape and tighten.


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## psych (Jan 7, 2013)

burr740 said:


> Mine also is an absolute piece of junk, for different reasons. Its wildly inconsistent from one day to the next, so bad Im using a flow meter now with the GLA needle valve wide open. Also has a severe eotd once the pressure starts dropping, which wouldnt be so bad if "no eotd" wasnt one of their main selling points
> 
> I'll never own another one


This seems to be my problem. I can set the needle valve but by the next day the bps have increased. Can you explain what you mean by a flow meter? My only other option seems to be to send it in for service or replace their needle valve with one of my own and I'm not sure if that's an option.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

There's no return policy on GLA regulators?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

psych said:


> Can you explain what you mean by a flow meter?





















It measures CCs per minute. I have the needle valve on the GLA reg wide open, and the flow meter connected inline, after the regulator. The flow meter regulates the rate of injection.

Currently have both the RMA-151-BV, and also the 150 listed here.

Series RM | Rate-Master® Polycarbonate Flowmeter is suitable for both gas and liquid applications. Allows the piping to remain undisturbed, interchangeability of the ranges, and easy cleaning. | Dwyer Instruments

The difference between the two is the range (scale) one is 5-50 cc/mn and the other one is 10-100. I first got the 5-50 but 50 CCs per minute wasnt quite enough for my 120 gal, so I grabbed the 10-100 and use the other one now on a 75 gal. 










My 120 gal uses about 55 CC/min, the 75 gal uses about 30

These things are great for big tanks running a high volume of co2. Rock solid consistency.

However they arent as precise as as a quality needle valve. For example on a smaller tank where you might wanna go from 2 bps to 2.5, its not going to work.

But wherever you set it, it stays there, which is the main thing I was looking for.

Of course you could always run another needle valve inline, after the gla reg, with the gla valve wide open. That's what I was going to do initially until user @Greggz turned me on to these jewels

Agree with others though, sounds like you need to get with GLA first and see what kind of support you get


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

uMc said:


> many people here recommended the GLA that's why i ordered it but it turned out so disappointed.. maybe you and i got a bad ones or after it became a well known product GLA uses low quality parts instead of the original ones?
> what am i going to do with it now? ship it back to GLA or use the silicon to seal it? i spent that much of money for the regulator and then i have to fix it before i can use? :frown2:


Establish a warranty claim with GLA and return it, trying to resolve the leak may void your warranty.


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## underH20garden (Dec 19, 2017)

wow sorry to hear you're having issues with your new reg. that sucks big time for sure. Ialmost went with them to but decided to go with DIY. I would contact them *before* trying to attempt fixing it.
like @charlie 1 suggested. 

plz do let us know what the outcome is.


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## ILikeRice (Jul 9, 2017)

Just wanted to add in, I had garbage customer service experience with GLA rep.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

ILikeRice said:


> Just wanted to add in, I had garbage customer service experience with GLA rep.


You are not alone.


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## Igor95 (Aug 19, 2017)

I bought the PRO1, haven't set it up yet. Bought into the hype and "reliability". Hopefully they at least refund you


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## EmotionalCod (Apr 18, 2018)

ILikeRice said:


> Just wanted to add in, I had garbage customer service experience with GLA rep.


Seeing the glowing praise here, I reached out to GLA with some questions regarding their regulators as I wanted to set up my first pressurized (instead of DIY) CO2 system. The reply I received was basically a blow off, with a tone somewhere between condescending and lazy. I tried again to have my specific questions answered and received no response at all. If it matters, the individual who replied was not Orlando, whom I see mentioned in older threads about GLA.

The silver lining is I'll now learn more by building my own.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

EmotionalCod said:


> Seeing the glowing praise here, I reached out to GLA with some questions regarding their regulators as I wanted to set up my first pressurized (instead of DIY) CO2 system. The reply I received was basically a blow off, with a tone somewhere between condescending and lazy. I tried again to have my specific questions answered and received no response at all. If it matters, the individual who replied was not Orlando, whom I see mentioned in older threads about GLA.
> 
> The silver lining is I'll now learn more by building my own.


It's pretty easy to build your own. There are a lot of guides in this forum.


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## uMc (Apr 12, 2012)

underH20garden said:


> wow sorry to hear you're having issues with your new reg. that sucks big time for sure. Ialmost went with them to but decided to go with DIY. I would contact them *before* trying to attempt fixing it.
> like @charlie 1 suggested.
> 
> plz do let us know what the outcome is.


here's what they said

```
Thanks for the follow up. This is extremely odd to see as all the parts are sealed using a thread sealant then tested with Zaxxis digital leak detection.  While it would be easy for us to tighten/fix it may not be easy to do at home. This we can fix easily. Do you have an installation company do the install for the co2? We don’t ever see leaks in our builds so rest assured it’s not normal.
```
i told them i don't know any local shop doing the co2 installation and i need to send it back to GLA to fix it. I'll pack it up and send it to GLA.. bought one product and paid two times of shipping cost :frown2:

charlie 1 is right if if try to fix it in my own and anything goes bad they will void the warranty. they need to fix the leakage and the LED light too


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## oval291 (Dec 19, 2016)

This is not good as I was looking to get one in June....


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

The irony is that I purchased an inexpensive setup from CO2 Art. Their customer support was outstanding. I had some problems and they were impressively response and helpful. I would say they went above & beyond what I would've expected.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

uMc said:


> here's what they said
> 
> ```
> Thanks for the follow up. This is extremely odd to see as all the parts are sealed using a thread sealant then tested with Zaxxis digital leak detection.  While it would be easy for us to tighten/fix it may not be easy to do at home. This we can fix easily. Do you have an installation company do the install for the co2? We don’t ever see leaks in our builds so rest assured it’s not normal.
> ...


So wait they making you pay return shipping for something that's out of your control? That sucks. I'd just return it and go with someone else.


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## oval291 (Dec 19, 2016)

Which other regulator would you recommend?


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

oval291 said:


> Which other regulator would you recommend?


Here is some components that in my opinion will surpass the infamous GLA pro 1 co 2 regulators that you can easily acquire and assemble like GLA does, GLA makes nothing!

https://www.micromatic.com/great-products-15-off/double-gauge-co2-primary-premium-series-642
https://www.diyco2regulator.com/co2-regulator-post-body-kit-1-12v
Want better delivery control ( needle valve)
https://www.amazon.com/52-1-12-Prec...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=22NPQ4VNJS4HGXGVRFGP
I`m sure one can find these pieces cheaper with some hunting,assembly is not difficult and you will be your best customer service representative 24/7 :smile2:


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## oval291 (Dec 19, 2016)

charlie 1 said:


> Here is some components that in my opinion will surpass the infamous GLA pro 1 co 2 regulators that you can easily acquire and assemble like GLA does, GLA makes nothing!
> 
> https://www.micromatic.com/great-products-15-off/double-gauge-co2-primary-premium-series-642
> https://www.diyco2regulator.com/co2-regulator-post-body-kit-1-12v
> ...



Thanks a million....Will look into this....is there an assembly installation guide?


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

Just want to chime in, I have that MicroMatic regulator.

It's now 7 or 8 years old and assembled with help from here. It was used by me for 2-3 years, then stored on a shelf in a garage for 4-5 years and now being used by me again. This thing is bulletproof.









The Clippard solenoid? Garbage. Runs crazy hot and hasn't worked for years. So it's just on 24/7 because I've been too cheap to replace it. I turn my co2 off and on by hand.

Needle valves are NV-55's. They're ok.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

kaldurak said:


> Just want to chime in, I have that MicroMatic regulator.


That MicroMatic killed 40B worth of fish with EOTD. Gotta watch that tank pressure.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

OVT said:


> That MicroMatic killed 40B worth of fish with EOTD. Gotta watch that tank pressure.


As is possible with any single stage regulator, even the much hype GLA Gro 1 that is pitched to not having EOTD issues.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Nlewis said:


> You should never use silicone to seal threads. I’d try just tightening the nipple before shipping it back. If tightening it doesn’t work then remove the nipple, clean, apply new Teflon tape and tighten.


this

even if GLA won't accept a return or whatever you should be able to properly re-assemble the reg at the leaky connection and it should be fine... the LED doesn't even matter


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## uMc (Apr 12, 2012)

GLA sent me the 2 days shipping label. i'll send it to GLA on Saturday
the customer service is very responsive i'm more than happy with their service but not happy with the product as i have 2 problems with the reg. it took them a week to build and test the reg but they didn't a good job.
I always thought that we get what we pay for and the GRO1 is not cheap it's 2-4 times more expensive than the other out there.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

charlie 1 said:


> As is possible with any single stage regulator, even the much hype GLA Gro 1 that is pitched to not having EOTD issues.


And that is why I have not used a single stage regulator ever since.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I would get two Milwaukee regulators for the price of one GLA Gro 1 and call it a day.


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

burr740 said:


> Mine also is an absolute piece of junk, for different reasons. Its wildly inconsistent from one day to the next, so bad Im using a flow meter now with the GLA needle valve wide open. Also has a severe eotd once the pressure starts dropping, which wouldnt be so bad if "no eotd" wasnt one of their main selling points
> 
> I'll never own another one


Totally agree with burr. My recommendation, get an inexpensive regulator and hook it up to a flow meter. I have done this on two tanks (one with an Aquatek regualtor and one with a GLA) and have not looked back. Consistent CO2 supply - only time to adjust is when you change out CO2 tanks.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Hmmm.. you know a flow meter is nothing but a metering valve w/ a floaty ball...

https://www.allcarevws.com.au/product/dwyer-flow-meter-vfa-41-bv-with-metering-valve/

Choice is a matter of style more than substance..


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> Choice is a matter of style more than substance..


In this scenario, choice is a matter of what works more accurately!!


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## Dudley (Jan 22, 2013)

This is from GLA Support page on the web. Contact them before you wrench on it unless you don't plan on returning it. Myself, being an avid D-I-Yer on just about everything from home construction to PCs to classic cars would probaly have just put new Teflon tape on it and re-tightened it. It's pretty easy to not torque something enough when putting it together. You should always leak check items after assembly with some soap/water solution. Or when purchasing something new like these. You should also leak check it when change CO2 tanks. It can prevent headaches downstream. 

The policies below are pretty basic. Seems like a lot of loop hole availability to not correct a product for a customer. 

*Defective Claim Policy*
If a product, that is not covered under a long term Warranty, is found to be defective, please email us at [email protected] within seven days of item receipt to arrange for repair or exchange.

We apologize for any inconveniences and will do everything we can to correct the problem.

*Limited Warranty of CO2 Regulators*
Green Leaf Aquariums, LLC warrants our custom built CO2 Regulators to be free from manufacturer defects in material and workmanship for a specified period of time from the date of purchase, when used in strict compliance with Green Leaf Aquariums, LLC recommended usages, so long as any defect is discovered and reported within the warranty period and while the goods are under the ownership and control of the original purchaser. Green Leaf Aquariums, LLC does not assume any responsibilities or make any warranties with respect to items which are modified, altered, abused, misused, damaged, or serviced by unauthorized personnel. The warranty is Void if at any time a wrench is used on the regulator, for any purpose, other than to tighten the regulator to the CO2 cylinder. 

Please contact us with warranty inquiries or claims. Warranty does not cover damage to product, misuse of product, or improper installation. Warranty void if product is damaged, misused, or serviced by unauthorized personnel. Warranty claims must be accompanied with photos of product.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> Hmmm.. you know a flow meter is nothing but a metering valve w/ a floaty ball...
> 
> https://www.allcarevws.com.au/product/dwyer-flow-meter-vfa-41-bv-with-metering-valve/


And a scale to show how much CO2 is being injected, which is a much better reference point than trying to eyeball bps

Not to mention the whole rock solid consistency thing



jeffkrol said:


> Choice is a matter of style more than substance..


In this case it's more a matter of function


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> As to function .. The 2 systems are "functionally" equivalent..


LEDs are "functionally" equivalent to T5s, and incandescents...doesnt meant one isnt a helluva lot better than the other two


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> LEDs are "functionally" equivalent to T5s, and incandescents...doesnt meant one isnt a helluva lot better than the other two


Amen my friend. Long live T5!>

But keep in mind, for some here growing plants doesn't seem to be at the top of the list.


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

charlie 1 said:


> Here is some components that in my opinion will surpass the infamous GLA pro 1 co 2 regulators that you can easily acquire and assemble like GLA does, GLA makes nothing!
> 
> https://www.micromatic.com/great-products-15-off/double-gauge-co2-primary-premium-series-642
> https://www.diyco2regulator.com/co2-regulator-post-body-kit-1-12v
> ...


Little more hunting and you can even find what amounts to the exact same base regulator that GLA uses in their builds (yes these companies buy various parts and put things together the same way anyone else can!)....https://www.chicompany.net/common-industry-parts/gas-regulators-tanks-parts-fttgs/gas-regulators-panels-parts/new-old-stock-used/cornelius-primary-regulator-w-cage-new?zenid=9lr5g4cl7ucap34rpuaroau5q0


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

3rd stooge checks in................
I don't have to use it to know how it "works"
Used them before , not for aquariums but as a chemist..

Like I said, show me where I said it was a bad thing..?
More crappy reading comprehension.. Countries doomed..


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Celebrate diversity.
Maybe.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Greggz said:


> I can tell you this, I just went through Jeff's posts, and it's never about growing plants, that is for sure.:wink2:
> 
> And I guess I shouldn't feel singled out, as I noticed he has arguments in pretty much every thread he pops into.
> 
> I seriously doubt it is ever going to change.


Oh I completely agree. Pretty much everyone here buys equipment to grow plants then there are a few (or 1) that grow a few plants so they can play with their equipment :surprise:


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

OVT said:


> kaldurak said:
> 
> 
> > Just want to chime in, I have that MicroMatic regulator.
> ...


I'm not worried about forgetting. I have to manually run my co2 because of solenoid failure, so I look at it ( and enjoy my tank) at minimum 2x pet day.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

Talk about a train wreck!!! LOL


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

Greggz said:


> I can tell you this, I just went through Jeff's posts, and it's never about growing plants, that is for sure.:wink2:


Really? Did you read all the 9000+ posts and decided not one of them is about growing plants ? Because in my book designing a good LED light for aquariums falls under topics of growing plants and is nothing just anybody can do. Think he helped more members here on this topic and has better understanding of LEDs and plant-light than most, including myself. He deserves some modicum of respect for this alone. Writing actual logical, science based posts is harder than making photo collections and pointing at others. 

He told his piece about why he believes flow meters are not precise and offered what he believes is a more precise tool. I never heard an argument against this or seen proof from you (pl.). What I did see is a series of increasing personal attacks directly aimed at Jeff. This is not facebag where you get to degrade the person and care about the number of "friends" and comments. We are here because we are interested in debate, seeing arguments, explanations, experience, rational argumentation and proof it works. If you are unable to provide any of this, that's fine; start researching, do experiments and document, no need to insult the person challenging your views. Not everybody needs a product with their username on it or ribbons in the hair to be qualified to help the community of plantedtank.

For what's worth, I was not impressed by analog flow meters... high quality digital ones do a much better job but most are lab grade so out of the budget of most. For quantification purposes it seems none of you adjust for working pressures and temperatures. Gases tend to be impacted by such things, so there goes one. By the time it actually reaches the plants a large number of factors would have already impacted the actual conc. in water as shown by how similar CO2 volumes work for various tank volumes. For consistency, think for aquarium purposes a good needle valve can be even better. Is there any data to show otherwise ? Do show!!!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

dukydaf said:


> For quantification purposes it seems none of you adjust for working pressures and temperatures. Gases tend to be impacted by such things, so there goes one. By the time it actually reaches the plants a large number of factors would have already impacted the actual conc. in water as shown by how similar CO2 volumes work for various tank volumes.


Well these same factors affect needle valves and bubble sizes/rates too.

The advantage of a flow meter is for big tanks running too many bubbles to count. 35 cc/min is 35 cc/min, regardless of the working pressure. Of course if the working pressure changes you'll have to adjust the flow meter knob to get back to 35. But you're still pushing the same amount of co2.

This comes in especially handy when you take the regulator off to refill a co2 tank. There is no dialing it back in, eyeballing the bubble rate then check the PH for a couple of days to make sure its where you want it. You just put everything back together and set the flow meter where you want it.

The number is just a personal reference to go by, no different than trying to eyeball a bubble rate, only much easier to hit the desired target. And it also allows a quick visual reference at any given time to see if anything has changed.



dukydaf said:


> For consistency, think for aquarium purposes a good needle valve can be even better. Is there any data to show otherwise ? Do show!!!


Nobody said a flow meter is more consistent than a high end needle valve. Although just from personal experience, I would argue its not any less consistent either. Running the exact same every day is about as consistent as most folks are going to need in this hobby. 

The advantage of a high end needle valve is the ability to make very small, precise adjustments. Cant really do that with a flow meter. If you want the ability to go from 2 bps to 2.5 then a flow meter is not for you. They are for big tanks running too many bubbles to count.

Besides the one on my GLA, Im also using one on an Aquateck regulator, which effectively takes the cheapo factor out of the equation. Now it's as consistent as a custom job costing hundreds of dollars more.

Aquateck reg - $80
Flow meter - $70

Boom, reliable co2 delivery for $150. Cant beat that with a stick!


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

I actually purchased a new Dwyer RMA-151-SSV off a very popular auction site a couple days ago. It should arrive on Monday and then I'll start working on integrating it into the system. I've read enough posts to realize it should help me dial in the CO2 for my tank. For the price it was relatively low risk ($35.00 shipped). Here is why I wanted to go this direction, although I believe all of these reasons have already been discussed.

Adjusting the CO2. I find it really difficult to determine the bubbles per second and how much I've increased them. I do know a higher end needle valve would also help with this, but the flow meter was actually less expensive.
Verifying CO2 rate. Unless I'm misunderstanding the usage, it should be easy for me to tell if the CO2 rate has changed over time.
Changing out tanks and getting back to the same amount of CO2. I run a 5lb tank, I realize moving up to a 20lb would make this a lot less of an issue.


Finally, I have a feeling I'm one of those people who grow a few plants so they can play with their equipment >

It could turn out to not work well for me and if that is the case, you will see it in the For Sale forum for a very good price.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

burr740 said:


> Well these same factors affect needle valves and bubble sizes/rates too.
> The advantage of a flow meter is for big tanks running too many bubbles to count. 35 cc/min is 35 cc/min, regardless of the working pressure. Of course if the working pressure changes you'll have to adjust the flow meter knob to get back to 35. But you're still pushing the same amount of co2.
> This comes in especially handy when you take the regulator off to refill a co2 tank. There is no dialing it back in, eyeballing the bubble rate then check the PH for a couple of days to make sure its where you want it. You just put everything back together and set the flow meter where you want it.
> The number is just a personal reference to go by, no different than trying to eyeball a bubble rate, only much easier to hit the desired target. And it also allows a quick visual reference at any given time to see if anything has changed.
> ...


something you thumbed up..


> In this scenario, choice is a matter of what works more accurately!!


but you stated:


> Nobody said a flow meter is more consistent than a high end needle valve. Although just from personal experience, I would argue its not any less consistent either.


Of course you added this qualifier:


> The advantage of a flow meter is for big tanks running too many bubbles to count. 35 cc/min is 35 cc/min, regardless of the working pressure.


Which is fine but really first mention of it..

And again all I said was the 2 systems are functionally identical..
Is it because I said "something" you instantly ass-u-med I was against it??

Again show me where I picked one over the other..
Never did.
FACT I said functionally equivalent means they can function the same way: i.e both can be used.
Didn't even get into the nuts and bolts before the er.. cl.. never mind. 

Point was/is a flowmeter uses a precision metering valve EXACTLY like any good system. Difference is in the visual inspection of the flow..
If one has a bad metering valve (in the flow meter) or one w/out the required flow rate or precision they are no better off..

Again as good as other "systems" worse in some cases (poor choice of cc range, substandard metering valve)

"Selling" flowmeters w/out the specific details is not helpful really...
The really funny part is not too long ago people here were telling people to NEVER use one since it is not meant for our uses.
They were "different" ect. ect..
REALLY, really ironic.. but not me. Knew only a little about it for our uses.
Sooo I looked it up. Found a metering valve w/ a visual inspection (leave stuck balls out for the time being ) BUT most being commercially sold and "affordable" were too "course"..
Skuttlebutt says the valves in "yours" are made by Fabco but I have no proof of this.

A good flow gauge is commercially as expensive as a good metering valve..and that is expected since the major component is a metering valve..
What I started this whole "discussion" with I still stand by.. It was darn near neutral and actually... the truth.. No more no less.
Probably not complete though.

Twist it any way you like for whatever reasons you have. 

We are all "guilty" of finding something and selling it as the new sliced bread.. Me w/ some COB's others w/ other things..
BUT best to include ALL the data.. i.e required range, "best use and practice"..not ass-u-me things that aren't there.

A flow gauge is certainly more repeatable (for some) and easier for large tanks.. but was never mentioned or forgotten.




> Hmmm.. you know a flow meter is nothing but a metering valve w/ a floaty ball...
> https://www.allcarevws.com.au/produc...etering-valve/
> Choice is a matter of style more than substance..


More than.. And I still stand by the logic of that statement. 
I'll add that I suppose it sounds worse than intended but it was a REMINDER. 



> Not to mention the whole rock solid consistency thing


So I buy some cheap Chinese flow meter and it will be more consistent than a Hoke1600
you can guarantee every flow meter is rock solid consistent? Of course not. Flow meter is only as good as it's metering valve and manuf standards. Can you guarantee used/new ones are still calibrated correctly? Again no.But that is with anything.

Two different ways to skin a catfish and "I" never insisted or implied one was inherently better or worse than the other. That was YOUR take.
IF you would have asked.. "So you thing flow meters are no good for our uses" I would have said.. No, not at all and probably go on to list things like meter valve quality.. ect. and in all likelihood would have missed a few points because of my frame of reference i.e don't do a "bajillion" bubbles per sec and let my tank tell me if the "flow" is correct. 

In this case it was not MY issue..  Your ENTIRE quote above was my main point to begin with.. Yeeeshhh..Can you see that?
Of course it is hedged a bit and colored. Human nature.. 

I spent way more time on a subject that, though important, is certainly not critical.
Use a quality flow gauge or a quality metering valve/bubble counter.?. Answer.. it depends..


> Flow meter - $70
> Boom, reliable co2 delivery


It would be no more "reliable" than a Fabco and bubble counter.. About the same price BTW..
You do have points.. and good ones, but that is not one of them..well not "proven"
$88 Dakota (retail) and bubble counter I'd wager it is more "reliable".. and def finer adjustment..
Only $30 more..


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> It would be no more "reliable" than a Fabco and bubble counter.. About the same price BTW..
> You do have points.. and good ones, but that is not one of them..well not "proven"
> $88 Dakota (retail) and bubble counter I'd wager it is more "reliable".. and def finer adjustment..
> Only $30 more..


Yeah Ive had a Fabco 55-18, it was...just OK 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-red-s-repens-mayaca-lobelia-mini-pellia.html

If I'd been happy with it's reliability, then I would've bought another one of those instead of trying something else.

As it turns out these Dwyer flow meters are far more reliable. Plus the numbered scale, the significance of which seems to be lost on you.

Of course you are perfectly free to believe whatever you want

Honestly Im not even sure what you're trying to argue at this point, just arguing for the sake of it apparently.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

sdwindansea said:


> Here is why I wanted to go this direction, although I believe all of these reasons have already been discussed.
> 
> Adjusting the CO2. I find it really difficult to determine the bubbles per second and how much I've increased them. I do know a higher end needle valve would also help with this, but the flow meter was actually less expensive.
> Verifying CO2 rate. Unless I'm misunderstanding the usage, it should be easy for me to tell if the CO2 rate has changed over time.
> Changing out tanks and getting back to the same amount of CO2. I run a 5lb tank, I realize moving up to a 20lb would make this a lot less of an issue.


Yeah I agree with those reasons.

When I was trying to dial in my CO2 with a needle valve, I became frustrated. Let's say I finally get to a setting I like, and then want to try maybe just a little more, or just a little less. As soon as I adjusted the flow, it was pretty much impossible to get it back to my prior setting. Why? Because on a larger tank, the bubble counter is basically a constant stream. How do you possibly quantify it?

And the thing is the actual flow is meaningless for our purposes. If the flow meter indicates 30 cc/min, we don't really know definitely what that actual flow rate is. Too many variables. 

However, for our purposes, it doesn't matter. Like many other aspects of the planted tank, we are more interested in relative values. Much like testing Nitrates. It's not the absolute value, it's the relative value and how that allows us to adjust dosing to suit our tank.

And while some may not understand why we would want to fine tune our relative flow, I find subtle differences in the plants response based on small incremental changes in CO2. If I see something wonky, it's the first thing I check, as it has the most immediate impact of the things we can control. 




sdwindansea said:


> Finally, I have a feeling I'm one of those people who grow a few plants so they can play with their equipment >


I think not. You have demonstrated quite an ability to grow plants beautifully. And I also enjoy the gadgets, and I buy and test loads of them. But the difference is they are considered a means to an end. And the end result is the execution of your vision, which you happen to do quite well, and far better than most (myself included).


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

burr740 said:


> Yeah Ive had a Fabco 55-18, it was...just OK
> 
> If I'd been happy with it's reliability, then I would've bought another one of those instead of trying something else.
> 
> ...


That is your opinion. Found no unreliability in 3 Hoke 1600's.. 
Never said Fabco's were perfect either. Not my metering valve of choice.


> Plus the numbered scale, the significance of which seems to be lost on you.


Not at all.. Never was the point. It's fine, it's usable, it is a "tool" Necessity is dictated by user..

Not arguing.. clarifying..you JUST...DON'T .... get it...

If one has a quality metering valve you can add a valveless flowmeter if one wants.. 



> Excellent repeatability and ±10% accuracy make the MMF flowmeter
> an excellent value at its low cost


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## nbr1rodeoclown (Feb 6, 2015)

OP posts problem.
Forum offers advice.
OP promises to update with outcome from Manufacturer.
Forum hijacks thread with argument about something marginally related
Forum members hurl insults because forums are pretty inefficient forms of communicating 1 on 1.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

First and only warning. I have cleaned up this thread once. The next time the discussion gets de-railed, infractions will be issued and this thread will be locked.

Please remember to keep the discussion civil. If you don't like someone, ignore them.


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## Riverboa (Mar 18, 2009)

This has been my experience as well. I bought a few regulators over the years and their support has been great. 



sdwindansea said:


> The irony is that I purchased an inexpensive setup from CO2 Art. Their customer support was outstanding. I had some problems and they were impressively response and helpful. I would say they went above & beyond what I would've expected.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Don't think I see most people on here running massive tanks that require insane amounts of co2 to be pumped which is why flow meters are never discussed. At the end of the day on your most common tank which is around 60p size a flow meter is not going to work. While a needle valve sucks for huge tanks, it's still usable. You can't say the same thing about a flow meter and a small tank.


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

gus6464 said:


> At the end of the day on your most common tank which is around 60p size a flow meter is not going to work. While a needle valve sucks for huge tanks, it's still usable. You can't say the same thing about a flow meter and a small tank.


Works perfectly fine on my 65gal and I prefer it to a needle valve/BC set up!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

gus6464 said:


> Don't think I see most people on here running massive tanks that require insane amounts of co2 to be pumped which is why flow meters are never discussed. At the end of the day on your most common tank which is around 60p size a flow meter is not going to work. While a needle valve sucks for huge tanks, it's still usable. You can't say the same thing about a flow meter and a small tank.


Yes I agree, with a 60P (17G), there isn't a flow meter with a small enough scale to make it work (at least none that I have found). Keep in mind, in the scheme of things, we are measuring a very small amount of flow.

And for large tanks, the needle valve itself isn't the only problem, it's the bubble counter. They are pretty much useless, as the CO2 is not bubbles, it's a steady stream. That's where the scale on the flow meter becomes so important. IMO makes sense for tanks 55G and over, and is a MUCH better solution for tanks 90G and over.

But as always, choose whatever is best for YOUR tank.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Darkblade48 said:


> First and only warning. I have cleaned up this thread once. The next time the discussion gets de-railed, infractions will be issued and this thread will be locked.
> 
> Please remember to keep the discussion civil.


But this is better then SNL and, deep down, that threesome love each other.

As far as larger tanks go, Vernier is another option.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

All things now considered.. I'd prefer "MY" metering valve and a flowmeter (bare) over metering/bubble counter.
Maybe I'll pick one up to see it in practice. Actually not sure I can find one w/ a low enough range..
Got to figure bps = cc/min



> *one bubble per second is about .85 cc per minute*


There.. should be close..
(PLEASE note for scientific precision each "ball" needs to be calibrated for the gas/liquid density AFAICT)

So "I'd" need 0-10 cc/min range

Prevents a failed check valve from sucking water backwards..
Head.. Blown.. 

Problem I'd have: mounting and keeping it vertical..Sounds easier said than done. for me.. YMMV.
Second problem Getting the base line to determine WHAT the flow rate means..
Learning a new scale so to speak.

Generally know what x bubbles mean to each tank. Never needs to be "precise" for "me"..just close enough.
That along w/ never running on the cusp of killing things and sloppy fertilization.. well good enough for my small tanks.


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

@jeffkrol, the 5-50 cc may work (e.g. Dwyer RMA-151-SSV). I ordered one of these new for about $35.00 on an auction site. I'm going to be really curious as to what cc/min this shows when I get it integrated into my 60 gallon tank. The one bubble/sec = 0.85 cc/min doesn't seem right to me based on what I've been seeing, but I'm far from an expert and could be completely wrong.

This is a very subjective thread, but it appears that people with 75G tanks are running somewhere between 20 and 40 cc/min - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1257505-co2-flow-meter-whats-your-setting-cc-min-gallon.html.

I actually find this topic fascinating. Especially since there are so many different ways to get from point A to point B. I guess that is part of the reason I enjoy this hobby, it is a constant learning experience, with the occasional frustration sprinkled in to hopefully keep you humble.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

For the larger tanks we have not discussed the superiority of sumps or wet/dry + venturi as part of the co2 distribution methods.

Or maybe I am posting in the wrong thread?

How is that GLA warranty coming along?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

sdwindansea said:


> The one bubble/sec = 0.85 cc/min doesn't seem right to me based on what I've been seeing, but I'm far from an expert and could be completely wrong.
> 
> I actually find this topic fascinating. Especially since there are so many different ways to get from point A to point B. I guess that is part of the reason I enjoy this hobby, it is a constant learning experience, with the occasional frustration sprinkled in to hopefully keep you humble.


Yea not my numbers and it from 10 years ago.. LOL..
After posting I took a double take..


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...scussion/78057-bubbles-per-second-cc-min.html


1/8" is 3.175mm = .3175cm diameter bubble. = .1588 radius Volume = .01677cc x 60 = 1 
1 bubble sec = 1cc per minute

Of course bubble size matters. 
3/32 = .2381cm = .0070 cc = 0.424 cc/min
5/32 = 0.397 = .0328 cc = 1.96cc/minute

So which is it?? 

The calcs are fine the bubble size is questionable.. 

Lets round the 5/32nd to 2cc/minute
at 20 cc = 10bps..


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I blame GLA for their sucky regs, otherwise we wouldnt even be having this conversation. Or maybe I should thank GLA instead. After all they're the reason I discovered the wonderfulness of using flow meters. 



jeffkrol said:


> All things now considered.. I'd prefer "MY" metering valve and a flowmeter (bare) over metering/bubble counter.
> Maybe I'll pick one up to see it in practice. Actually not sure I can find one w/ a low enough range..
> Got to figure bps = cc/min
> 
> ...


Id say if you're able to count your bubbles then you really dont need a flow meter. By count, I mean look at the bubble counter and say yeah that's about right.

They are most useful when your running too many bubbles to count, more or less a steady stream that could be off several bps and you couldnt tell by looking. Only way to know is check the PH

As for this -

*"one bubble per second is about .85 cc per minute'*

Wouldnt that depend on the working pressure? Or more specifically the resistance at the diffuser, reactor, etc? 

CO2 bubbling through an open line makes really big bubbles. Pushing through a diffuser that needs 35 psi the bubbles are really small. Maybe its the same amount of co2 just more compressed? Idk...

Which brings us to the accuracy of these flow meters. By accuracy I mean is 30 cc/min really 30 cc/min, or is it more or less? Most flow meters have an accuracy rating. These Dwyers I believe are +/- 8% depending on the model.

The thing is it doesnt matter because the number is just a personal reference point. If you know 30 cc/min according to the scale is the sweet spot for your tank, it makes no difference if that's actually 25 or 35, you know 30 is where to set the thing.

Another thing about converting bps to cc/min, assuming you want to do this for the purpose of knowing where to start, it's a whole lot easier to keep the bubble counter in the beginning. That way you can start out running about the same as you were before and see where the number falls on the scale.

Set the working pressure to whatever, open the regulator's metering valve wide open, then use the flow meter to hit the approximate bubble rate that you're used to. Then you can ditch the bubble counter later on if you want to, or just let it run dry.

Personally I still have all mine running. I use inline types that are a good ways after the regulator, some are suction cupped inside the tank. I really dont need them now just been too lazy to take them out. And I do like being able to see exactly what the system is doing, a triple check if you will.

The point is with a flow meter you have a number to go by instead of trying to eyeball things according to what a stream of bubbles looks like. Again, mainly for big tanks. 

If you can count your bubbles then you already have a reliable reference point. A flow meter probably isnt worth the trouble.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

CO2 is a relatively compressible gas. The bubble size is hard to measure and even with the same volume the number of atoms will vary. That is why I find both threads on the subject eh ... interesting.

Compressibility Factor (isothermal) of Carbon dioxide from Dortmund Data Bank


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> I blame GLA for their sucky regs, otherwise we wouldnt even be having this conversation. Or maybe I should thank GLA instead. After all they're the reason I discovered the wonderfulness of using flow meters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Joe you really summed it up quite well. I couldn't have done it better myself. 

It's really not that complicated, but some make it so. And as you said, mainly for bigger tanks.



OVT said:


> CO2 is a relatively compressible gas. The bubble size is hard to measure and even with the same volume the number of atoms will vary. That is why I find both threads on the subject eh ... interesting.
> 
> Compressibility Factor (isothermal) of Carbon dioxide from Dortmund Data Bank


OVT I have read your recent posts with great interest. Can't quite figure out who you are, but posts are interesting nonetheless.

CO2 bubble size is completely irrelevant. It's the relative flow/concentration of CO2 that matters. Getting lost in the science will not further the growth of your plants, or the hobby. 

Just saying it's not that complicated. Making it complicated doesn't make for better plant growth. And isn't that what we are actually seeking?? Compressibility (sic) really has not a thing to do with growing plants, wouldn't you agree??


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Greggz said:


> OVT I have read your recent posts with great interest. Can't quite figure out who you are, but posts are interesting nonetheless.
> 
> CO2 bubble size is completely irrelevant. It's the relative flow/concentration of CO2 that matters. Getting lost in the science will not further the growth of your plants, or the hobby.
> 
> Just saying it's not that complicated. Making it complicated doesn't make for better plant growth. And isn't that what we are actually seeking?? Compressibility (sic) really has not a thing to do with growing plants, wouldn't you agree??


 @Greggz: Dear Sir, please let me know once you find out who I am.

Whether bubble size and compressibility has anything to do with growing plants is debatable and I doubt that either one of us will ever know at our individual levels of expertise.

I do agree that getting lost in anything is not conductive to any task. And that is exactly the reason why I brought the subject up: if we continue down the the path of science then the bubble size and compressibility, in conjunction with other factors, have direct effect on the final concentration. If the discussion focuses on fluid dynamics, namely measuring the flow as the means of controlling the concentration then leaving out the major factors is unlikely to lead to meaningful results. And that is one definition of "stuck". I would further offer that understanding and applying the science will indeed further the growth of plants and our common hobby.

And yes, it is as complicated as we want to make it. One part of complication is whether one is satisfied with subjective measure of plant growth and health or whether nothing less then objective measures will do. If one is satisfied with their ability of keeping Java Fern alive and green then they are not the target audience for this discussion. On the other hand if your personal goal is to have every leaf of your Needle Java Fern to be exactly 18" long and under 1/4" wide and pointing in the exact same direction then this (highjacked) thread is your opportunity to learn and teach on your way to that goal.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

So OP, please advise on the progress of your original concern with the GLA Gro1, i`m interested in the progress to your original reason for starting this thread.
Sorry if i missed any updates, as it is increasingly difficult to find the relevant information to your original concern.
Thanks


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> @Greggz: Dear Sir, please let me know once you find out who I am.


OVT I apologize, that was very poorly worded, and I didn't mean to convey anything negative.

Looking at some of your old threads/posts, I was very impressed as you certainly know how to grow healthy plants. And that interests me very much.

Would love to hear more about your methods and experiences.


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## caboforte (Mar 18, 2018)

I have a 180 gallon tank. GLA reg with 2x 80mm atomic diffusers. Which flow meter should I get that’a good quality?

Also I found a big leak with GLA reg at inlet nipple seal. Reg is only a month old. New refilled 5lb tank went from 800 psi to 500 psi in 3 days. Same leak area as video post from user early in this thread. GLA says they are sending me shipping label to send back to them. What should I do in meantime with tank/plants not being able to dose co2 (most likely for next 2+ weeks)?


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## caboforte (Mar 18, 2018)

I have a 180 gallon tank. GLA reg with 2x 80mm atomic diffusers. Which flow meter should I get that’a good quality?

Also I found a big leak with GLA reg at inlet nipple seal. Reg is only a month old. New refilled 5lb tank went from 800 psi to 500 psi in 3 days. Same leak area as video post from user early in this thread. GLA says they are sending me shipping label to send back to them. What should I do in meantime with tank/plants not being able to dose co2 (most likely for next 2+ weeks)?


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