# Looking at dirt



## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I have had dirt tanks. Cant argue with the results. If you go with a more general soil you may find you can skip mineralization and the ammonia spike. I never mineralized my soil but I avoided any soil that contained any additives and never had am ammonia spike. My favorite is actually yard dirt. That said you have a plan and I personally see no fault in it. If the tank is set up and you keep the filters running (put tank water in a bucket or something and run them on it to keep the o2 levels up) you will be good to go.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

thedood said:


> I have had dirt tanks. Cant argue with the results. If you go with a more general soil you may find you can skip mineralization and the ammonia spike. I never mineralized my soil but I avoided any soil that contained any additives and never had am ammonia spike. My favorite is actually yard dirt. That said you have a plan and I personally see no fault in it. If the tank is set up and you keep the filters running (put tank water in a bucket or something and run them on it to keep the o2 levels up) you will be good to go.


Yea I have a marine land canister and an eheim canister on the tank, and just those three fish so I don't think the ammonia would be an issue if i soaked/water changed some MGOCPM. What is a good depth? .75" of dirt and then an inch or two of a cap?


----------



## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I usually went with an inch of dirt and an inch to inch and a half cap.


----------



## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Exposing animals to ammonia should be avoided whenever possible. I am a big advocate for dirt, but I would recommend against stocking your tank immediately after dirting it. Sometimes I don't get any ammonia spike at all, but it's not something I would risk - it really depends on brand and how long I've had the bag sitting around outside. I think your first idea is good: soaking the dirt and testing the runoff water for ammonia content. 

I do not have personal experience keeping plecos in a dirted tank, however I have heard that they can distrub the cap if not given adequate hiding spaces. The cories are probably fine.

Good luck! I don't want to give you the impression that I'm discouraging you: dirt is the way to go, but getting the initial setup right is key.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Bananableps said:


> Exposing animals to ammonia should be avoided whenever possible. I am a big advocate for dirt, but I would recommend against stocking your tank immediately after dirting it. Sometimes I don't get any ammonia spike at all, but it's not something I would risk - it really depends on brand and how long I've had the bag sitting around outside. I think your first idea is good: soaking the dirt and testing the runoff water for ammonia content.
> 
> I do not have personal experience keeping plecos in a dirted tank, however I have heard that they can distrub the cap if not given adequate hiding spaces. The cories are probably fine.
> 
> Good luck! I don't want to give you the impression that I'm discouraging you: dirt is the way to go, but getting the initial setup right is key.


I have sold off all my stock and only have the two otos, actually I have only ever seen 1 at a time, they are impossible to find most of the time, and the one pleco which is max 2" and I didn't even know it was in there until about a month ago, it is well over 8 years old so I doubt it will grow any more and disturb anything. I'm not trying to fully stock it right away, just those three, but the plan was to soak the dirt and attempt to avoid an ammonia spike. I have tons of plants as of now, and tons of floating water lettuce to help during the initial first few weeks. The eheim is 100% loaded with eheim bio media, the marinelend is 3/4 full of ceramic bio rings as well. I'm going to presume it can deal with a little ammonia after soaking and testing for a while. Of course if there is any signs of ammonia I will take action and remove these fish.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

thedood said:


> I have *had* dirt tanks.


Key word had. If dirt is "the cat's pajamas" why not continue with dirt.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

houseofcards said:


> Key word had. If dirt is "the cat's pajamas" why not continue with dirt.


I'm not looking to use a fluorite/eco-complete/aqua soil etc. etc. I want to try something new, something I have never done before. Dirt seems to get the green light from most people, and as far as I can see dirted tanks look fantastic and it is on my tank bucket list.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Quagulator said:


> I'm not looking to use a fluorite/eco-complete/aqua soil etc. etc. I want to try something new, something I have never done before. Dirt seems to get the green light from most people, and as far as I can see dirted tanks look fantastic and it is on my tank bucket list.


'

Yes, I get that. I was asking thedood since he's used it before.


----------



## thedood (May 30, 2015)

houseofcards said:


> Key word had. If dirt is "the cat's pajamas" why not continue with dirt.


Excellent question. Unfortunately my posts are a victim of the photobucket change or I would suggest you look at my journals. From a growth perspective dirt is great. It provided a good base for roots, it will hold nutrients, it is natural. 

But for me there are issues with dirt that only come to light when things go a little south. For example try removing an amazon sword or a crypt thats been growing in dirt for 6 months or a year. To me that is the biggest draw back. Ever tried to clean a tank that has been dirted after the dirt? Its a mess, to me that is the issue and the only reason I no longer dirt my planted tanks and it is why I went to fluorite. I tend to like to change things up from time to time. I have heard of people moving plants with all sorts of gimmicks and how there was no dirt made it into the water column at all. I dont doubt the honesty but these are results I have been unable to reproduce.

In closing and in summation I will not try to discourage anyone from using dirt but since the question was asked I answered. One other thing I will add. The idea behind a dirt tank is low tech and simple. I think people in general tend to over complicate things including the simplistic dirt tank. Fancy dirts etc etc. A simple mix of basic yard dirt, yes dirt from your yard, mixed with some el cheapo walmart clay cat litter and thats it. No fancy soils. No mineralization. Just sifted yard dirt, kick back watch the plants grow in real time (almost). Thats my full opinion on dirt.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

@thedood 

That's pretty much what most say so I'm not surprised. If your going to be moving stuff around dirt is very unforgiving not only with the mess it makes to the water column, but aesthetically since the cap is usually going to collapse and mix with the dirt. The cap is usually light while the dirt is dark so it makes it that much more obvious. When you have a single substrate you obviously don't have those issues. 

I guess it depends on your approach to the hobby. If your going to have alot of plants you won't notice the mixing as much, although the foreground will be tough since you could see it through the front glass. If that's not a concern then go ahead and play in the dirt.


----------



## thedood (May 30, 2015)

houseofcards said:


> @*thedood*
> 
> I guess it depends on your approach to the hobby. If your going to have alot of plants you won't notice the mixing as much, although the foreground will be tough since you could see it through the front glass. If that's not a concern then go ahead and play in the dirt.


I always had carpet plants, dwarf sag mostly, on my dirt tanks. I grew to not care much what the sub color was because given enough time you would never see it anyway.


----------



## gt turbo (Sep 13, 2012)

I use dirt exclusively at the moment due to the unavailability of planted tank specific substrates in my country. 

Addressing the issue of seeing the dirt at the front of side viewing panels, that's easily solved by putting a small rim of sand or capping media as border before adding the soil. All you see is the sand.

Moving plants can be done but with much care and patience. With established crypts or swords, I'll pull and shake gently till the crown and probably an inch of roots are visible and then snip snip. I normally trim roots for planting anyway. This usually results in little to no soil being disturbed. 

If you guys are interested take a look at my instagram page (dmdaquariums) and see some of the pitfalls and successes I've had. There's even a short vid showing me setting up a 10g using the sand border.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

gt turbo said:


> I use dirt exclusively at the moment due to the unavailability of planted tank specific substrates in my country.
> 
> Addressing the issue of seeing the dirt at the front of side viewing panels, that's easily solved by putting a small rim of sand or capping media as border before adding the soil. All you see is the sand.
> 
> ...


My plan exactly, a sand border for the front and side viewing panels. Now this obviously wont stop the sand cap from mixing into the dirt over time, but there will be loads of plant mass by that time to help cover that mess, and I could always add more sand to any areas that get mixed up and are clearly visible. I'm looking for a new challenge, and I don't see any other planted substrate as cost effective as dirt seems to be.


----------



## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I like the sand border, works well. I look forward to seeing the tank. Are you going to use root tabs? A little sprinkling of osmocote+ on the bottom before putting down the dirt works well. If you do this go conservative. A little osmocote+ goes a long way.


----------



## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

I personally have only experienced dirt intermixing with cap in my sunfish tank, and I'm 90% sure it's because they were trying to build a nest.

I am not surprised that removing an Amazon sword caused mixing of sand and dirt cap. The roots of an Amazon sword are enormous. Otherwise, it should be noted that the only mention of systemic intermixing that is unrelated to active disturbance of the cap comes from a user who does not keep dirted tanks.

Avoiding mess in a dirted tank is very simple: don't be neurotic about moving things around, and when you do, take the proper precaution of cutting off roots below the substrate with scissors before removing. Yes, it is more difficult to move plants around in dirt, but it's not the end of the world. 

Cap intermixing with dirt without substantial disturbance is, I believe, a myth.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Thanks all, I'm working now on finding a BDBS replicate here in canada, I've found some just hunting it down is taking a while. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Well dirt is bought and currently soaking, I ended up going with miracle grow natures care organic potting mix with water conserve. This was not my ideal choice but it was what is available around me. All stores discontinued MGOCPM and they are now carrying this instead. Its made up of Alfalfa Meal, Bone Meal, Earthworm Castings, Kelp Meal, natural forest products, yucca and everything is fully organic. I read up on whats available and some people have used it for dirted tanks before.

This stuff is really spongy and basically it all floats. I'll be attempting to mineralize it as much as I can, if it stays too spongy and has too much organics I will have to use some dirt out of my backyard (very sandy soil) and mix in a little. I'm hoping the spongyness and floating will be reduced over night while it soaks, I'm not expecting miracles (no pun intended) should it take a lot longer than a day to sink down.

I picked up 100 lbs of black industrial sand, I don't have access to BDBS so I went with k&E's industrial sand that is labeled under blasting agent. It has fairly large, course grain sizes and the SDS lines right up BDBS. I found a local forum that had a member use this stuff before. I will rinse very well and test before diving into the substrate swap, just in case it changes water parameters, but it likely shouldn't.


----------



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

thedood said:


> Excellent question. Unfortunately my posts are a victim of the photobucket change or I would suggest you look at my journals. From a growth perspective dirt is great. It provided a good base for roots, it will hold nutrients, it is natural.
> 
> But for me there are issues with dirt that only come to light when things go a little south. For example try removing an amazon sword or a crypt thats been growing in dirt for 6 months or a year. To me that is the biggest draw back. Ever tried to clean a tank that has been dirted after the dirt? Its a mess, to me that is the issue and the only reason I no longer dirt my planted tanks and it is why I went to fluorite. I tend to like to change things up from time to time. I have heard of people moving plants with all sorts of gimmicks and how there was no dirt made it into the water column at all. I dont doubt the honesty but these are results I have been unable to reproduce.
> 
> In closing and in summation I will not try to discourage anyone from using dirt but since the question was asked I answered. One other thing I will add. The idea behind a dirt tank is low tech and simple. I think people in general tend to over complicate things including the simplistic dirt tank. Fancy dirts etc etc. A simple mix of basic yard dirt, yes dirt from your yard, mixed with some el cheapo walmart clay cat litter and thats it. No fancy soils. No mineralization. Just sifted yard dirt, kick back watch the plants grow in real time (almost). Thats my full opinion on dirt.



I have a dirt tank.

When I did my last rescape, I tried to save and uproot a Red Tiger Lotus, and within about ten seconds, the tank was dark mud. The only other problem is that I didn't filter the MGOC; I have wood chips that sometimes come up.

If you accept that you can't move plants with extensive root systems, unless they propagate from trimmings, dirt is fine.

I think serious aquascapers will use high tech substrate. Soil makes things grow, but if you have high-Co2 and fertz in water column, things will also grow well. Aquascapers need to move things around and get it looking perfect. Its more precarious with soil.

My next planted tank won't have soil, I will be using plants that are primarily water column feeders; one dirted tank is enough.

OTH, dirt is perfect match for low tech.

Also, I never witnessed an ammonia spike with an inch of sand cap, but tannins did need to be removed with Purigen.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I think most people whether you call them aquascapers or not will want to move stuff around. It's just gonna happen. A plant gets too big for an area, etc. Dirt is not formulated for an aquarium, thus the cap. Once you have two substrates (usually one dark, one light) there will be mixing and it will be noticeable. 

As mentioned if your more into just growing plants and not as concerned about aesthetics then dirt is fine or if you'll be covering so much of the aquarium with plants that you won't notice the mixing then that helps as well. It will certainly grow plants, but it is very unforgiving. If you look at the Diana W. tanks you could see aesthetics take a back seat to the science. That's why it's call The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. It's not that you can't move stuff around, it's just more difficult that's why substrates made for water exist, otherwise why waste the money when you could use something that's "dirt" cheap.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Thanks again guys, I understand the drawbacks of a dirted tank. These drawbacks/challenges are the reason why I went out and bought dirt, and why I am in the process of building a plan for this setup. I've said it a hundred times before, I wanted something different and this happened to be what I was drawn to.

Moving plants= a mess, a risk I am willing to take. I will limit moving plants, take all precautions and use the least disturbing techniques possible. 
The aquascape on this tank will be fairly simple, I have other tanks to scratch the aquascaping itch with. 
The stocking will be small on this setup to help keep maintenance as low as possible in my first dirted tank. 
I am prepared to take my time, too many tanks I have setup too fast and was unhappy with, so taking my time with this is a priority.
Lighting will be low to medium, I think I will go with the medium light route eventually, but I want to keep this tank low tech. The past 3-4 tanks I have setup have all been high tech, and I want something new. I haven't had a lower tech tank for 5-6 years and would like to have a go at it again. 

Who knows, if this turns out to be a disaster I'll only be out a Saturdays worth of work and $40, but I would have gained some great experience.


----------



## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Don't worry too much about the buoyancy of the dirt. Dirt waterlogs very fast - it is, afterall, much smaller than driftwood.

Don't soak for too long - you don't want to lose too much fert. I personally don't soak or mineralize at all.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Bananableps said:


> Don't worry too much about the buoyancy of the dirt. Dirt waterlogs very fast - it is, afterall, much smaller than driftwood.
> 
> Don't soak for too long - you don't want to lose too much fert. I personally don't soak or mineralize at all.


This stuff is pretty rich, it has a higher analysis than MGOCPM, I believe its 0.15-0.10-0.15. I'm not too worried about loosing too much. It started to sink faster than I thought so I'm going to dry it out tonight, eventually sieving it if at all possible. I have a couple otos and small plec too, so I would prefer to limit any ammonia once I do the swap. I'll likely end up using some 0-0-58 with 0.5 boron and a dash of 0-0-22 with 11 magnesium and 22 sulfur. I really would only use these for the micros, I doubt its even needed but I'm using some in root tabs right now, plus a little 11-52-0 with good success.


----------



## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Do you know what you're going to plant yet? For stems, I have been getting really lovely results in dirt with limnophila aromatica, mermaid weed, ludwigia inclinata, Mayacaca fluviatilis, and lysimachia nummularia. Rotala are the only stems I struggle with in dirt (though very high light can get good results) - everything else seems to do just great. Cuba is a pain because of the need to replant the tops, but as long as they are planted in a part of your scape where the substrate can be easily accessed (so you can cut the roots away with scissors) it is not so bad.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Plants I currently have are as follows:

Crypt wendtii - both green and brown.
Crypt Parva
Crypt lutea "hobbit"
Swords - 1 x Amazon 1 x Red Melon
Broad leaved helanthium tenellum green
Red tiger lotus
Crinum natans
Apongeton crispus
Java fern windelov
Anubias nana
Anubias coffeefolia

Stems
hygrophila pinnatifida
rotala rotundifolia
bacopa 

I will likely add more of each from my LFS boxing day sale. 

Plants I am planning to buy:

S. repens (if it will grow)
rotala walichii (if it will grow)
AR mini (if it will grow)
various ludwigias (if they grow)
Attempt some of the easier carpeting plants if I find a beamswork replica in Canada (or a supplier willing to ship here) to put me in the higher end of med. light. I have a bunch of glosso in another tank I am willing to at least try, maybe hairgrass, maybe no carpet attempt. 
various mosses
maybe dwardf sag. (I hate it taking over my tanks, happens too much IME.)
basically any lower light stem plant i can find. My LFS has a huge boxing day sale I will be spending plenty of money at so...
I'll also pick up some metricide 14 and dig out my old auto doser so I will never miss a day, I figure a gallon should last me the year at 0.75 the dosage of excel. 


Overall I want as much plant mass as possible from day 1 of the switch, I'm currently growing out tons and tons of water lettuce in my pond fish holding tank, my high tech tank and this 90 gallon to also help out if needed.


----------



## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

S. repens, AR mini, and all of the ludwigias under the sun will grow wonderfully in dirt. I have had very bad luck with walichii, however. In general I think people (even dirted tank owners!) underestimate the variety of plants that can be kept in dirt, and how much PAR you can get away with without having to add any pressurized CO2 or metricide, but walichii just doesn't seem to work. Still, worth a shot! Let me know how the rotala rotundifolia does. I want to know if my rotala troubles are personal, or something to do with dirt.

All of the traditional carpeting plants do just great. If you think dwarf sag is invasive, stay away from DHG. I only use DHG in dirted tanks that have structural borders in the substrate to prevent runners from invading other plants. DHG explodes in dirt.

Regarding the foreground, I have not tried eriocaulon personally, however there is a substantial body of academic literature describing this plant's superior ability to obtain CO2 from substrate. Sometime to experiment with perhaps. Will require higher light, though.

Blyxa japonica is also a lovely, reliable plant that does well in dirt.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I would like to grow plants such as those, I think it will be down to lighting in the end. Still undecided on that but I will definitely keep an eye out for a beamswork "like" fixture. 

24 hours later most of the Miracle Grow Natures choice organic potting mix has sunken. I'll give it a little longer and then proceed to scoop out what's floating, currently about 3/4" of floating junk. Maybe I'll just drain the water and let it dry out, flood it again, let sit for another day and then scoop any floating crud.... 

I was sitting through meetings all day and was daydreaming, I think I want to try out adding (a very small amount) of granular products with micro nutrients in them I have access to. 

0-0-58 with 0.5 boron
0-0-22 with 11 magnesium and 22 sulphur
12-40-0 with 10 sulphur and 1 zinc

Likely is not needed, but a figure a little shouldn't hurt (currently using most of those products in root tabs) 

Might use some ADA Bacter 100 to keep anaerobic pockets down.... 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gt turbo (Sep 13, 2012)

How is the tank doing? Did you set it up yet?


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

gt turbo said:


> How is the tank doing? Did you set it up yet?


Not yet, it is my next project though. Not going with dirt though.


----------



## gt turbo (Sep 13, 2012)

Quagulator said:


> Not yet, it is my next project though. Not going with dirt though.


That's sad was really looking forward to see what you can, would do with it


----------



## oval291 (Dec 19, 2016)

Quagulator said:


> Not yet, it is my next project though. Not going with dirt though.


Why not what pushed you away from dirt?


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

oval291 said:


> Why not what pushed you away from dirt?


I've been doing a lot of reading / following journals and learning tons over the last year. I've always wanted to do a dirted tank, I know I'll eventually do one, but the way things are unfolding with my other tank, I'm going to keep this one much much more simple. Dirt is very messy..... am I'm having great success with keeping my other tanks very very clean.

This one will be straight black blasting sand. The original goal was to do something I've never done before... and I've never used straight sand so I guess I'm still doing something "new"


----------



## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

Ah interesting. I'm prepping some dirt right now to put in my 75g. I wanted to grow out plants/shrimp in there but it sounds like maybe i should just go with a PFS bottom and not worry about soil. I am quite new to the hobby too but dirted tank sounds so good for the plants.. Or is it not worth it?


----------



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Dirted tanks are not that messy, unless you start moving plants about frequently or have fishes that root around in substrate.
I first tried dirted tank after growing sword plant's and crypt plant's in pot's filled 2/3 with dirt, and covered with fine gravel or sand in tanks holding large south American cichlids along with plecos and loaches who would otherwise uproot plants with too much frequency for me.
Dirt is good.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

roadmaster said:


> Dirted tanks are not that messy, unless you start moving plants about frequently or have fishes that root around in substrate.
> I first tried dirted tank after growing sword plant's and crypt plant's in pot's filled 2/3 with dirt, and covered with fine gravel or sand in tanks holding large south American cichlids along with plecos and loaches who would otherwise uproot plants with too much frequency for me.
> Dirt is good.


I have nothing against dirt, but it is 'messier' than plain substrates, I'm certain of that. I will end up moving plants a lot I can already tell. Eventually I'll try dirt, just not for this tank.


----------

