# Active substrate end of life, time for a new tank and idea



## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

Cool little project, looking forward to seeing this develop. Will you have very unstable parameters since you are going to use a product to lower your PH instead of the substrate? How will you add water when you have evaporation? The big plus on substrate is that it keeps things very stable.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

hedge_fund said:


> Cool little project, looking forward to seeing this develop. Will you have very unstable parameters since you are going to use a product to lower your PH instead of the substrate? How will you add water when you have evaporation? The big plus on substrate is that it keeps things very stable.


If all other params are stable, a pH shift isn't that big of a deal. Happens with active substrate tanks too. Your tank is 6pH because of the substrate and put in 7pH water. At some point it has to jump up then back down. Using RO water or a water with 0kH though, it is easily converted to whatever pH the water is in the tank already, so it happens pretty quick and I assume it will work the same topping off a 6pH tank with 0TDS/0kH water, regardless of pH, should drop fairly quickly. Other option is use the Ebiken Sosei powder in the top off RO water as well to lower the pH. I don't have the product yet, but I'll play around and see what happens and wlll talk with Frank about it, since he uses that method in his tanks, almost no substrate, and adjusts the water before going into the tanks with whatever minerals and ph up or down solution depending on the shrimp. Beats going through tons of active substrate all the time.


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## Vincent Tran (Aug 7, 2012)

This looks very interesting!


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## belphegor (Nov 25, 2012)

How do you know when it has reached its time? 
Do you know if Eco-Complete will do the same? 

Anyways, I like the set-up! Your shrimps will be happy to graze all over that.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

GeToChKn said:


> If all other params are stable, a pH shift isn't that big of a deal. Happens with active substrate tanks too. Your tank is 6pH because of the substrate and put in 7pH water. At some point it has to jump up then back down. Using RO water or a water with 0kH though, it is easily converted to whatever pH the water is in the tank already, so it happens pretty quick and I assume it will work the same topping off a 6pH tank with 0TDS/0kH water, regardless of pH, should drop fairly quickly. Other option is use the Ebiken Sosei powder in the top off RO water as well to lower the pH. I don't have the product yet, but I'll play around and see what happens and wlll talk with Frank about it, since he uses that method in his tanks, almost no substrate, and adjusts the water before going into the tanks with whatever minerals and ph up or down solution depending on the shrimp. Beats going through tons of active substrate all the time.


This definitely sounds interesting. I actually just finished topping off my dead Akadama with ADA Afrikana. I just put the new soil on top and so far so good. I'm sick of substrates so I hope your method works out.

Not to hijack the thread but here is one of my tanks with topped of substrate....it's getting pretty thick now. I hope your method works so I don't have to top off again in 1.5 years or I'll have no more water left in the tank...it will be all substrate.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Looking forward to seeing how this works out for you.

Have you checked the big Hamburger filter thread? I think sewingalot and others have shrimp in their tanks and really enjoy them.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

somewhatshocked said:


> Looking forward to seeing how this works out for you.
> 
> Have you checked the big Hamburger filter thread? I think sewingalot and others have shrimp in their tanks and really enjoy them.


Yup, read all 52 pages last night before going out and buying foam and silicone today. lol.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Ya, it's a test. See how it goes.

I am going to silicone in a substrate divider to keep the substrate contained to a small area, to give the shrimp biofilm, places for babies to play and an area to plant if I want to plant it. I'm using some black flourite.

Here's the dry fit for the substrate divider. It's a plastic PVC based compound called Celuka. It's basically the same stuff they use for PVC pipes that's heated and then filled with tiny micro air bubbles then compressed to give a very hard, PVC "wood" that comes in 1x6 and 2x4 and all the standard lumber sizes. It can be cut with a chop shop and comes out with a super smooth edge without sanding, can be drilled, painted, just like wood but just pure PVC. I've used it for turtle docks, crayfish homes, all kinds of things in tanks before and since it's just PVC, just heated with air and no additives, it's safe for tanks like PVC is. I'm going to paint it black and silicone it in so the front part of the tank is bare and can be used for feeding and easy cleanup and the gravel will be contained against the sponge, so it will seal the bottom of the sponge to stop shrimp from crawling under, and act like a UGF and pull crap out of the substrate towards the sponge. 










I was also reading Frank say that basically inert soils but ones with a high CEC (He was referring to Akadama) will absorb some of the fluvic acid from the Sosei and release it, thus helping stabilize the ph of water over time as small amounts will be retained and released by the soil. Another reason I choose Flourite black for my substrate.

Off to paint and silicone and wait. I hate waiting for silicone. lol.

I'm also going to paint the bottom of the tank black too. Should look decent when it's done.

The other thing with the HMF is you can hide your heater, CO2 difussor, whatever behind the sponge. I going to use a small internal Fluval filter full of purigen as my method for water pumping out from behind the sponge wall, so it will help filter the water as well and I'm going to have 2 sponge filters in near the front of the tank to help keep water moving and surface movement near the front of the tank. I'm sure they'll be some tweaking as I go but I have an idea how I want it all.

Here's the divider glued in an painted.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

belphegor said:


> How do you know when it has reached its time?
> Do you know if Eco-Complete will do the same?
> 
> Anyways, I like the set-up! Your shrimps will be happy to graze all over that.


I knew mine was by the constant 40ppm of nitrates no matter how much water I changed and the blue-green hair algae covering everything in my tank and no babies. lol.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Pretty much done for the night, have to wait for silicone to cure. lol. Painted the bottom black. When this one is up, I'll do my other CRS tank. Only have two tanks going right now, high SSS/+ grade and my lower grade crs/cbs/golden/snow mixed tank, so everyone is in one tank right now, then I'll swap everyone to this tank when it's done and do the other. There is 1 light fixture over right now to cover the tanks and I'll add another so each tank will have 2x23W cfl's


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## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

Have you considered the Hagen Elite mini water filter?













That might fit your bill.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

m00se said:


> Have you considered the Hagen Elite mini water filter?
> 
> 
> That might fit your bill.


I have a fluval 2 internal filter, so I can stuff it with purigen or floss or whatever I want to get a bit of different filtration in there besides the jumbo sponge wall.

Here it is connected to my output that will sit above the water line to get lots of surface movement and O2 exchange.


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

Here is good read for the weekend.Enjoy

http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php/3677-My-racks-and-shrimps


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## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

GeToChKn said:


> I have a fluval 2 internal filter, so I can stuff it with purigen or floss or whatever I want to get a bit of different filtration in there besides the jumbo sponge wall.
> 
> Here it is connected to my output that will sit above the water line to get lots of surface movement and O2 exchange.


I like this a lot for a smaller tank, I may incorporate this idea in a 29 I'll be converting to a QT tank. Instead of two Koralias, use a Koralia and a spraybar...

If you feel like it, I think it would be nice to post something on sewingalot's HMF thread - I'm one of the folks over there and I know we would love to see this build! You could add a link back to this thread so we ( and anyone else interested in HMFs) could see all the builds and updates in one fell swoop.


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

It looks like you're already set, but for others in the future, an HMF mounted in the end of the tank like shown here will stay put on its own without extra supports glued in. If you want to use a corner rather than entire end then you do need the supports.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

jccaclimber said:


> It looks like you're already set, but for others in the future, an HMF mounted in the end of the tank like shown here will stay put on its own without extra supports glued in. If you want to use a corner rather than entire end then you do need the supports.


I was more concerned with making sure no gaps existed at all so no newborn shrimp could get back there and the supports seemed to give just that. Maybe on the next one I'll try it that way.


Added the flourite to the substrate section, seeded with old flourite, new flourite , Ebiken EI, Mosura Bioplus and some old sea mud powder underneath. No silicone smell at all, but I'll wait till tonight to flood it and give it 24hrs anyways.


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## tunatime (Aug 1, 2012)

theirs another way to get around this,make a sump and make 1 compartment active substrate and the rest what every type of media you want to add. i have a 10g sump set up on my 20g shrimp tank and 1/4 of the sump is filled whit ada 5in deep then a big ass sponge then a crap load of filter floss and finally a hob whit a bag of purigen in it.
once the ada starts ruining out you get a new bag put it in a 5g bucket fill it up and let it set for a week then get the old ada out and add the new, no tank taredown required. i do find that the ada runs out a lot faster as there is more water flow over it, and the best part is during wc you add the water to the first put of the sump and by the time it hits the tank its already down to the right ph/gh


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

tunatime said:


> theirs another way to get around this,make a sump and make 1 compartment active substrate and the rest what every type of media you want to add. i have a 10g sump set up on my 20g shrimp tank and 1/4 of the sump is filled whit ada 5in deep then a big ass sponge then a crap load of filter floss and finally a hob whit a bag of purigen in it.
> once the ada starts ruining out you get a new bag put it in a 5g bucket fill it up and let it set for a week then get the old ada out and add the new, no tank taredown required. i do find that the ada runs out a lot faster as there is more water flow over it, and the best part is during wc you add the water to the first put of the sump and by the time it hits the tank its already down to the right ph/gh


I was thinking sump system and may go that way for my rack, we'll see. I just didn't have the money to go buy a tank, return pump, all the plumbing, etc, right now to do a sump for 1 or 2 tanks. With a ~15 tank rack, I may go this way still. I rather have drilled tanks for sumps and if I got that way, I'll take the time and plan it all out fully.


Another reason for the whole teardown and restart is I go some sort of aquatic weed stuff that's growing my moss and it takes it over and it's impossible to get out once it starts. You pull a strand and the little seed things open and you have spores everywhere in the water. It was in both my CRS tanks, on the sponges, moss, everything. Luckily my PFR tank didn't get it's about half full of moss right now and needs a trimming anyways.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Flooded the tank, took a few sponge filters and squeezed them out right in front of the sponge to let it suck up all the goodies, added some new and used fluorite with Old Sea Mud powder, EI and Bioplus mixed with it to help get some good bacteria growing, seasons sponge filter with moss growing out of it, my mineral balls, some cholla wood from another tank, few pre-soaked IAL leaves, so lots of goods to season the tank. Added a few ramshorns and fed them already to get some ammonia going and get some snail sludge goodness over the glass. Took a couple seasoned plastic pot scrubbers from another filter and put them behind the sponge wall to help season it. pH is about 6.7 from my RO water, so not bad off the start.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Your dog makes mine look tiny, and mine is HUGE!


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Betta Maniac said:


> Your dog makes mine look tiny, and mine is HUGE!


He's about 250lbs, 6'6" on his back legs. lol. He's just my little puppy.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Would the shrimp climb right over the sponge behind the wall?


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

He'll definitely get climbers.

But I get them in my canister filters that use pre-filter sponges ziptied to the intake pipe.

Should be easier to move them back into the tank with the HMF filtration method than it is to take a canister apart and such.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Soothing Shrimp said:


> Would the shrimp climb right over the sponge behind the wall?


It's possible, but there is nothing back there to damage them. Most of the time though when I've had divided tanks, etc, the males only climbed over to find females in other sections that molted.

The water line is also about 2 inches out of the water and the sponge is fully dry at that area, so I don't think they will bother much climbing up a dry sponge. No water, no biofilm to eat, no females behind the sponge. I may find an odd one down there, it's possible. We'll see. It's a test and a temp setup for the next year until I move and get a new house and build a dream rack. lol.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Hey, never know until you try right? The best ideas had to be implemented and shared or we all would still be trying to figure out how to keep cherry shrimp.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

somewhatshocked said:


> He'll definitely get climbers.
> 
> But I get them in my canister filters that use pre-filter sponges ziptied to the intake pipe.
> 
> Should be easier to move them back into the tank with the HMF filtration method than it is to take a canister apart and such.


Ya I just pulled a golden out of my HOB filter and the intake is hooked up to a UGF plate under 5" of soil, the outflow is about 2" above the water line and it was at the bottom of the filter under 2 sponges that are stuffed tight in there, yet somehow jumped the 2" up out of the water, climbed against the flow of the water, squeeze through the different sponge layer and was chilling eating brown goop in the bottom of the filter. lol. 

I've also seen a shrimp climb up under the inside of a sponge filter and was living in there for a while, not able to get back out the grates, just rolling around in the bubbles for who knows how long. 

When I used canisters, I found them in there.

People have found shrimp on the floor.

I'm sure using a sump type system, they would get in there.

They will get where they want to get if they are determined enough. lol.


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## inthepacific (Oct 21, 2012)

what exactly do you mean when you say it started to release things? like the stuff in the substrate started to float out of it?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

inthepacific said:


> what exactly do you mean when you say it started to release things? like the stuff in the substrate started to float out of it?


No, just active soils have a high CEC. They absorb stuff from the water. In my case apparently nitrates and phosphates. In a planted tank, they would probably be used up by the root system, so win-win. In my tank though, it wasn't plant, all shrimp, so at some point the soil gets full and starts to release. I'm not sure about the phosphates but the nitrates are for sure. I took 4 plastic container and put in plain RO water with minerals in 1, then 1 soil directly from the tank, one soil that I tried rinsing off for about 15 mins as suggested by 1 person. The last cup I had soil, that I had baked in the over at 200F for 20mins at the suggestion of someone else, a method they heard of from someone but never tried. I let them all sit for 24 hrs, shaking the containers a bit to get the water moving through the substrate.


Baseline Source Water - 0ppm
Soil Directly from the tank - 50ppm
Rinsed off soil - 2.5ppm
Baked soil - 20-50ppm and the TDS was 50 above the others in the container.



So through testing, my soil is loaded with nitrates and rinsing it off or baking and drying it shows it wasn't the water from the soil, it wasn't debris on top of the soil, it was the soil itself.

(baking the soil also stinks something fierce. lol)



--------------


I transferred all my shrimp over tonight, 60 in total (including 3 berried) plus the few that were already in there. Acclimated each since they came from a 5pH water to 6.7pH, where the tank is at now after adding a few doses of the Ebiken Sosei. TDS is 140 with Bee gH+, gH is 5 and happily nitrates are 0. lol.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

have u considered a clado type algae to cover the HMF??
hard to kill and will absorb everything
plus wont get chocked out by debris like moss potentially can


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> have u considered a clado type algae to cover the HMF??
> hard to kill and will absorb everything
> plus wont get chocked out by debris like moss potentially can


Nope, never hear of it or tried it, but will give me something to good. lol.


-----

So far the shrimp are loving it, you can see some on the wall already at the back.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Well I am trying to see if I can wash the nitrates out of my Netlea with it in a bucket and my showerhead alternating between hot water to maybe release it and then cold water so it doesn't break down too much from the hot water and I'll see. Considering I was able to get it with from 40ppm to 2.5ppm with a 15 rinse under cold water, I'll see what happens.

I never had nitrate problems before with my Netlea. The only time I did different when I setup these tank as opposed to before, was used a UGF plate. Don't know, but we'll see how my rinsing experiment goes.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Well rinsing the soil is almost getting the nitrates to 0. Going to keep rinsing it and see what happens.


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## mgood (Nov 8, 2012)

You guy's certainly know more about soil than I do, but I can offer that I've used similar setups and had great success. I used a foam backdrop in a 10G once (the backdrop was designed for reptiles). It had all sorts of little cutouts / nooks / crannies etc-- nice to grow moss & plants.

I just hollowed out a section in the bottom, added a waterfall pump and ran a return line at the top. Once established, it ran great since the filter area was huge for the tank size. Never had ammonia etc. problems.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

mgoodm, that sounds like a great display! Neat idea to put it in front of the filter area.

The reason shrimpers use the soil is not necessarily for looks, but because it drops the ph down to where the specific shrimp need it.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

So, just for kicks I did the math on this since I'm driven crazy by the weirdest things. LOL

If this is a 10g tank, the sponge you have roughly covers 120 inches.

If 4 large double sponge filters covered the back wall, it would cover 129 inches because of the cylindrical shape and top/bottom areas as well.

One thing for sure. Yours looks less obtrusive!


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Soothing Shrimp said:


> So, just for kicks I did the math on this since I'm driven crazy by the weirdest things. LOL
> 
> If this is a 10g tank, the sponge you have roughly covers 120 inches.
> 
> ...


It'a 20gal and the sheets are about 16" x 16" so its 256 in^2, and about 1.5" thick so 384 cubic inches of space and only takes up 2" at the the back of tank. My second tank for I siliconed in the substrate divider last night, painted the bottom of the tank, have to hang the lights and flood the tank today. I'll get the foam on Wed, at Big Al's boxing day sale. Least save 10-20% of it and I'm sure I'll get a few more things.

This is more a test for me to find a decent system multiple tanks as I plan on building a nice rack within the next year or so, with all the tanks the same kind of setup. I know I can power the HMF with air as well, so air sponges, air driving that, trying to see if a full air-powered system would stand up, as many fish rooms are done this way. having 20 tanks, gets expensive in canisters, hobs, powerheads, etc. The best way to save cash is all driven and for ease of use. Should have pics of the second tank side by side this one today.

----

So the sosei seems to soften the pH of the water a small amount. I wasn't expecting huge jumps, but I am at about 6.7pH right now with a few does of the Sosei and RO water, no active susbstrate. I have 60+ shrimp in there, few berried, and this morning seen two nice clean, perfect molts laying there and the tank in a frenzy, so I will probably see another berry or two hopefully. So far, in general seems to be working out. 0 nitrates and everything else, gH 5-6, TDS 150, pH 6.7. The shrimp are very active in this new tank, I see them all the time and they seem to love the 256 sq inch sponge wall, I can usually 10 at a time on it.


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## bostoneric (Sep 7, 2011)

if you havent already, you should read this.

http://www.janrigter.nl/mattenfilter/


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Fantastic read!


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## bostoneric (Sep 7, 2011)

tons of info out there, since this type of filtration has been around for a long time.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...orum-new-filtration-concept-3.html#post117047


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks. I'm going to post another thread, so I don't hijack this one.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Thanks for the links bostoneric, I've read a ton of info on this before I decided to try it. In realty, fitration is filtration, no matter if it's a big sponge like thing, a sump, 9 canisters chained together, whatever as long as the BB have a place to grow. The advantage I see with these and shrimp tanks is these allow a huge sponge for shrimp to graze biofilm from, one of these favorite things to eat and should be their main source of food. Needs very little maintenance, etc. When looking to go with a 16-20 tank shrimp rack, I don't want 20 filters I have to clean weekly, 

I've seen a lot of people too drill a bulkhead behind the sponge wall for water changes. Open the ball valve, drain the water out to the desired level, close the valve and add new water, all without ever risking sucking up any shrimp or fry because the bulkhead is behind the mat.


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## bostoneric (Sep 7, 2011)

totally agree for a shrimp tank they are amazing filters. shrimp make very little waste and the amount of grazing space for the shrimp is huge. 

the only real downside of these is the look. I dont run one on my fissidens tank because its so beautiful to look at, but I do have a small shrimp breeding tank with a HMF powered by small return pump. basically its like those little prefilter sponges on and intake, but about 100Xs bigger and no need to clean it.



GeToChKn said:


> Thanks for the links bostoneric, I've read a ton of info on this before I decided to try it. In realty, fitration is filtration, no matter if it's a big sponge like thing, a sump, 9 canisters chained together, whatever as long as the BB have a place to grow. The advantage I see with these and shrimp tanks is these allow a huge sponge for shrimp to graze biofilm from, one of these favorite things to eat and should be their main source of food. Needs very little maintenance, etc. When looking to go with a 16-20 tank shrimp rack, I don't want 20 filters I have to clean weekly,
> 
> I've seen a lot of people too drill a bulkhead behind the sponge wall for water changes. Open the ball valve, drain the water out to the desired level, close the valve and add new water, all without ever risking sucking up any shrimp or fry because the bulkhead is behind the mat.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

bostoneric said:


> totally agree for a shrimp tank they are amazing filters. shrimp make very little waste and the amount of grazing space for the shrimp is huge.
> 
> the only real downside of these is the look. I dont run one on my fissidens tank because its so beautiful to look at, but I do have a small shrimp breeding tank with a HMF powered by small return pump. basically its like those little prefilter sponges on and intake, but about 100Xs bigger and no need to clean it.


I have my planted nano tank with WCM's, and neons, I have my big planted platy tank, so I don't need all my tanks to have lush green forests. Shrimp tanks are for shrimp and breeding, so whats suited to them, I don't about the look as much when I have the planted tanks I already want.


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

Cool thread to read. :thumbsup:



GeToChKn said:


> In realty, fitration is filtration, no matter if it's a big sponge like thing, a sump, 9 canisters chained together, whatever as long as the BB have a place to grow.


Very true. there are TB breeders that use only sponge filters as filtration.

the flourite is a non active substrate correct? meaning it won't dissolve or leach back out things?

could crushed lava rock (like GLA sells) be used a similar/cheaper substitute?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Green_Flash said:


> Cool thread to read. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, flourite is non active.

----

Setup the second tank a few minutes ago after letting silcone dry from yesterday with the substrate divider and sponge holder in place. I squeezed a sponge filter in there to get some good mulm and bacteria going so it's cloudy right now. Should be crystal by morning.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Adding the clado is basically adding an unkillable, nitrate, and phosphate sucking sponge with tons of surface area for shrimp to pick at and eat.. 
And agian because its algae. U dont have to really feed it the right nutrients. It'll just grow for ya

Its a win win for keep a high end shrimp tank stable imo, but im not a hugely successful shrimp keeper. Im too busy trying to grow fish and plants.. The logic behind it just seems sound


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## bostoneric (Sep 7, 2011)

I didn't see it in the thread but what sponge did you end up going with. curious about the ppi choice you went with. for shrimp higher the better 40-50ppi keeps the baby shrimp out of the back of the filter area.


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

I got to thinking;

in saltwater, they start with ro/di, pure water right, then they add the salt mix. they don't have the rocks/sand buffer the water to the right param, they do that before hand

ok

why can't the same be applied to freshwater shrimp tanks? start with ro/di, add the minerals and adjust the pH and params and pour it in the tank.

then waterchange/top off with the correct water.

why do we need substrates that buffer to begin with? 

if the source water is perfect, why would substrate matter? 

true the water declines over time and needs to be replenished but that is no different from a marine tank when they do a water change

that is what you are experimenting on right?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Green_Flash said:


> I got to thinking;
> 
> in saltwater, they start with ro/di, pure water right, then they add the salt mix. they don't have the rocks/sand buffer the water to the right param, they do that before hand
> 
> ...


That's part of the idea. Just lowering the pH before hand is harder to get a consistent level than it is raising the pH with crushed coral, etc. Part of my experiment is to see if I can get a good CRS breeding colony without using active substrate to get the pH to 5-6.4 or so where most people say CRS need to be and rather just use RO water and a bit of fulvic acid to get it 6.7-6.9 and see if they can adapt.


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

I have no experience in salt water but a thing I know is high KH level. KH level determine the power to hold ph level. In a specific shrimp tank where 0 KH is the goal, PH will go up and down without a buffering substrate. So substrate is ideal for shrimps.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

HMF is doing good, shrimp love grazing on it, lots of breeding and berrying going on. pH is about 6.7, temp is 68F. Hopefully I'll see some babies from the berried ones I put in there. The 2nd tank is about ready so I can switch over the high grades and low grades.
No active substrate, no crazy canisters, big sponge wall, RO water with Salty Shrimp minerals and Ebiken Sosei. It does seem to lower the pH a tiny bit.

Only death I noticed was my own fault and one of my SSS too. I ran a HOB filter with some floss in it to clear up the water, unplugged the filter, prefilter sponge came off, moved the filter to the 2nd tank to clear up that water, plugged it in and out came a SSS, not moving. It must have crawled up the intake tube during the few seconds it was shut off and before I moved it. 

All my ramshorns I put in are alive too, instead of them dying all the time in the 5pH water.

Feeding time.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

sayurasem said:


> I have no experience in salt water but a thing I know is high KH level. KH level determine the power to hold ph level. In a specific shrimp tank where 0 KH is the goal, PH will go up and down without a buffering substrate. So substrate is ideal for shrimps.


Maybe my RO comes out with an undetectable but small amount of kH but I haven't had a single pH swing. I monitor all the time and test my meter with my calibration solution and it's 6.7 dead on every time.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

Looking good.

Two questions:

1. Why do you keep your temp so low? Mine is at exactly 73.5 and they are breeding very fast. They slow down when I had my temp below 72.

2. How much of the Sosei do you need to use in order to drop the PH to 6.8? I presume your RO water is at a PH of 7? How many servings would the full bag accomplish? I wonder whether it really is cheaper to use Sosei in the long run or whether ADA Amazonia is really the way to go.


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## bostoneric (Sep 7, 2011)

great results so far!


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

hedge_fund said:


> Looking good.
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> ...


It's what my room's at and they're fine so rather than mess with a heater and have it screw up and toast my shrimp, I rather keep them cool. All my heaters are just random ones I've gotten in boxes of stuff and I wouldn't trust without testing first.

Yes, my RO is about 7 and that was the regular dosing of the Sosei, one spoonful per 20-30 gals, cost like $8 for a 30gram bag, it should last a while. I just don't want to have to change substrate all the time, hit that end of active substrate life, and it's a test to see how well they will adapt over time without it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't and I'll go back to that route. I just trying different stuff, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I think if the mineral content is right and stable, that's more important than the pH being low. 

We'll see.


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Got bored a little while ago and set this up with rocks from my backyard and stuff I had laying around. I like the minimal look it.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

GeToChKn said:


> If it doesn't work, it doesn't and I'll go back to that route. I just trying different stuff, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I think if the mineral content is right and stable, that's more important than the pH being low.


I like this. I'm usually testing the old myths as well so I am glad there are others out there.

A few weeks ago I dumped brand new ADA Africana on top of my old Akadama without cycling etc. Some people thought I was crazy. Today I have more berried females than I did prior to my little experiment.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

hedge_fund said:


> I like this. I'm usually testing the old myths as well so I am glad there are others out there.
> 
> A few weeks ago I dumped brand new ADA Africana on top of my old Akadama without cycling etc. Some people thought I was crazy. Today I have more berried females than I did prior to my little experiment.


I got lots of berries right now too, and they are so active in the new tanks as opposed to never seeing them, they are everywhere. This was taken yesterday and I can see at least 2 new berries today.

http://youtu.be/_rlbY6iwb_g


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

Will the shrimp be okay without substrate? I've read a thread on this forum they will get stressed in a bare bottom tank. Mainly because its too slippery? 
And babies will have nowhere to hide.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

sayurasem said:


> Will the shrimp be okay without substrate? I've read a thread on this forum they will get stressed in a bare bottom tank. Mainly because its too slippery?
> And babies will have nowhere to hide.













The back half of the tank is Flourite black for substrate, BB to build up, it's against the sponge so the sponge should pull some debrib from the substrate like a UGF, gives the moss a place to plant, babies to hide, stuff for them to pick at, but won't degrade like active substrate and since it has a high CEC, it may retain some of the Sosei I dose to help release it. I also seeded underneath the substrate with Bioplus, EI, Sosei and Mineral plus to get it nice and full of minerals, fulvic acid, and baby food/bacterias. The idea, to me anyways, of the half and half tank is the glass part is easy to feed, and if you notice, shrimp poop mostly when they are eating, so I feed on the bare part and can take an airline hose and suckup the food/poop so it doesn't sit there. Easy to keep it spotless.

I also have cholla wood for babies to hide, lava rock piles, almond leaves, and I am going to grow moss all the way up the HMF sponge wall as well, so babies should be fine and they do have substrate, just about 40% of the tank of it, that's all. All my lava rock has been in tanks for 1-3 years and have nice algae, bits of moss, biofilm on them. I did setup the tank quick and added shrimp in 3 days but everything I added was well seeded material.


This is a test to use a HMF filter for low cost and maintenance, no active substrate to lower pH to 5 range and keep the pH around 6.7 but keep all the minerals the same and everything else to see if they really need a low ph or can adapt to it as long as their other params are in check.


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

I see it now!
The vertical shots of the tank playing tricks on me


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Spotted my first baby that came out of hiding somewhere in the tank looking good, nice coloring already for a baby. I did put a berried shrimp in there that only had like 1 or 2 eggs, she dropped the rest but kept 2 eggs to term, so this may be one of them.












Couple pics of everyone in the tank enjoying feeding time and doing well in the new tank.





















Between the shrimp and the snails, there is never any food left in the bare bottom glass part. I think feeding on substrate, it falls down before everyone gets a chance to eat it. On bare bottom, it gets eaten.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Here's a full tank shot to see the filter output, added more lavarock, and can see shrimp everywhere.










Here's a shot of the moss taking a great hold around the base of the sponge. I want it to grow up the sponge and create a huge moss wall.












There is also some riccia that came over during transfer and it stuck at the top of the moss, growing slight emersed, so we'll see how that takes hold. I have it growing in another tank coming out of the HOB slight emersed and it's doing great there.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

So far, everyone is doing good. TDS is 155, pH is about 6.9-7.1, probably either depending on my cheapo-ebay pH meter or the amount of CO2 in the water, used by moss and floaters, etc and what time of day I check at, gH is 5, kH 0.

I have about 10 berried CRS/CBS/Golden and I think that's all of the females of age in the tank, haven't noticed any deaths, lots of activity and molting, babies from Ebiken growing nicely, two of them are berried already.

So, so far for the test in a mostly bare bottom, non-active substrate, pH near neutral, HMF and sponge filter only tank, my shrimp are:

- living fine and EXTREMELY active in. - Check
- Growing, molting, no deaths. - Check
- Breeding, getting berried - Check
- Holding to term - So far, first females should be ready to pop soon
- Babies growing up and not dying in the water - No idea yet, although I did transfer over 1 probably week or two old baby and 1 probably month old or so and I still see them in the tank, so they didn't mind it.


So we'll see in probably a week or two when the first batch hatches, if I can see babies a week or two after that and the rest should start dropping day after day or within a few weeks and hopefully they get berried again soon. Even if I don't get a high yield, the babies that do make obviously are genetically superior to the ones that didn't make and would more adapt to live in this water. lol. 

I speak to breeder in Eastern Europe and they keep TB's and CRS in like 8pH water, because it's the only RO they can get and active substrate is expensive, and they breed and do ok.

So hopefully within a month, I have a tank full of babies, we'll see.



Couple berried momma's hanging out.


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## Mrturritos (Oct 26, 2012)

It is weird I can never see berried females. But randomly after adding my crs in 2-3months back I saw tiny babies every were. Are you using Tap water or RO? I have been using only tap water and I have just got a TDS meter today. Tested the water in the tank and it is at 178. But it is a meer 23 coming out of the tap from up stairs. Ph is 6.9 but I do have to buffer the water to 5 dGH. 

Was thinking of using RO if my tds was high but should I even bother?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Mrturritos said:


> It is weird I can never see berried females. But randomly after adding my crs in 2-3months back I saw tiny babies every were. Are you using Tap water or RO? I have been using only tap water and I have just got a TDS meter today. Tested the water in the tank and it is at 178. But it is a meer 23 coming out of the tap from up stairs. Ph is 6.9 but I do have to buffer the water to 5 dGH.
> 
> Was thinking of using RO if my tds was high but should I even bother?


I'm using with minerals to bring RO up to 5gH. My tap is like 200TDS, 7.8pH. You might be one of the lucky ones with near pure RO water in your taps from the mountains or what not. Mordlaphus has water like that.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Just spotted a few babies in the back, really hard to see with the tank sides but I can see them back there. Either snow white or SSS/SSS+ as they are bone white already, just can't see the headgear yet, too small. lol.


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

Lava rocks buffer to PH7


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

plamski said:


> Lava rocks buffer to PH7


I've had them in tanks of 5-6.5 pH and never seen them buffer.

This tank has 3 large lava rocks and a tonnes of small pieces as is sitting at 6.2pH and going lower right now and my WCM's just spawned a bunch of babies in it, the rocks aren't buffering anything.


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## Mrturritos (Oct 26, 2012)

That is because me and Liam live in the same state, maybe 30mins away from each other? Winning, and yes we get real nice mountain run off water. Some of the best water in the nation actually =) soooo that means instead of an RO unit I am justified to spend 100 bucks on shrimp!

20 blue velvet, 5 yellows and 5 SSS shrimp muhahahah


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## plamski (Sep 25, 2009)

GeToChKn said:


> I've had them in tanks of 5-6.5 pH and never seen them buffer.
> 
> This tank has 3 large lava rocks and a tonnes of small pieces as is sitting at 6.2pH and going lower right now and my WCM's just spawned a bunch of babies in it, the rocks aren't buffering anything.


Then maybe my water is not stable somehow. I have problem PH going up with Eheim bio balls too.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

So seen a few babies, but not many out, especially in the bare tank area, none venture out that far. Tried looking in the moss, a few. Picked a piece of cholla wood and shook it in the water a bit and it started raining babies, so there is babies all over in there, just hiding, so I'll quit prying and wait for nature to takes its course until they are ready to come out and say hi, and then see if I start to see some new numbers in a couple of months. I'm going to setup a 5.5gal tank as a birthing tank probably that I'll match params on, then I can keep babies in there and monitor them more.

So far, so good without active substrate though and keeping gh/kh/tds/nitrates in line and not worrying about ph.


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## shrimpzoo (Sep 27, 2011)

Been keeping up with this topic lol. I hope mine can do just as well as yours in a pH of ~6.9-7.1 when my substrate expires (which won't be soon but I always plan for the future).

Best of luck with your 5.5gal set up!


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Someone decided to venture out to the bare bottom part today.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

New mama's


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## Simplicity (Sep 29, 2011)

What lights are you using?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

I have 2x23W 6700K CFL's in a double reptile dome hung about 5" over the tank, which is a 20gal high. I already had the reptile dome, so that made the decision easier. lol.

I don't usually run both lights all the time though, so I usually turn one on in the morning, both on midday, the first one off, and the 2nd one off later, so I get a bit of sunrise, full sun, sunset effect. I had them on timers but had to lend them to my roomies for his reptile tanks since he got put on swing shift, so I just do it manually for now.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Just saw about 9 babies, and if I can see that many, there has to be more hiding in moss, cholla wood and everywhere else. They range from golden-S grade CBS-s grade CRS-SS-SSS, or as much as I can tell. lol.

Can see at least 4-5 berried females still, so hopefully within a month I can see dozens of babies.

Setup a 5.5gal birthing tank to use to transfer momma's over to, then I can keep better track of the babies.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Still good for anyone following, no deaths more and more babies are spotted all the time.

6 page recap for those that don't want to read. lol.

-My active substrate that was buffering down to 5pH started going wonky, releasing nitrates and phosphates and just at the end of its life. Had no babies for months.

-Couldn't get more active substrate/wanted to try a different approach.

-Setup my tank with a Hamburg matten filter and another sponge filter and that's it.

-It's half bare bottom, half inert gravel with moss planted in the substrate and growing into the HMF sponge to create a giant moss wall/sponge filter combo.

-Using RO water with Salty Bee gH+ to 5gH, 140TDS and mix a bit of Ebiken Sosei (fulvic acid) to lower the pH a slight, which puts it at about 6.8-7.0 pH during the course of a day.

-Moved all my shrimp to the tank from a 5pH to 7pH.

-After a month or so of settling in, the berried started and I am seeing more and more babies all over the tank.


The purpose was to see if I could crystals breeding and babies living in a non-active substrate tank and a neutral water and basic sponge wall filter. No canister, no plants, no low pH, and so far seems to be a success.

It was test out of necessity, active substrate was on its way out, car was having troubles, couldn't make the 2 drive to the nearest place to get Netlea soil, no money for soil, so said, lets try. I had just received over 30 SSS/SSS+ very nice shrimp colored from Ebiken , plus my existing golden/crs/cbs and I had to do something as the soil started going wonky about a month after I got my SSS shrimp.

Would I do it again when I setup a new tank or go the active substrate standard method? I'm not sure yet.

Do I recommend or want this to be read as, you can keep crystals without active substrate? No. Everyone's mileage varies, as does there experience. I don't think of myself as a "shrimp master" by any means, but I know MY shrimp and have learned to tell when they seem to be lacking something, when there isn't enough O2 in the water, when it's too hot, when babies are doing good, etc, so I took this on. 

This is simply my experience and a journal to see how things would work out, so don't dump $500 in crystals in a tank with RO water and some gH stuff in it and blame me if they die. lol. With every 0.1 degree of an increase of pH towards 7, ammonia becomes more toxic and over-feeding, water changes, monitoring deaths, births, etc, becomes more important.


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

Thanks for the summary. I've read this thread, but don't remember all of the specifics. What temperature are you running this tank at?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

jccaclimber said:


> Thanks for the summary. I've read this thread, but don't remember all of the specifics. What temperature are you running this tank at?


68-72 right now.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Just counted about 45 babies that are a few weeks old and colored up nicely, so they seemed to make it past the critical point of a 1-2 weeks. Could be more babies, it's hard to count them. lol. 

Still have some berried females around, so hopefully I'll have more soon.


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## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

Thanks for the update, still following along and learning.


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