# Florabase Under Sand?



## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

I have a 4 gal finnex tank coming for my new betta on friday. I would really like to use sand, but want to have plants. Can I put Florabase under the sand?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Ive never used flora base, but I dont see why you couldn't. Is it anything like AS?


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Hmm..I don't know but I think so. It is an enriched substrate. Supposedly it gives off CO2 to some degree, and you don't have to do anything for the plants for like 6 mo. florabase


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

In my experience, it is pretty difficult to keep 2 types of substrate separated. The small substrate will always move to the bottom over time.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Good point Putty, learned that one with sw tanks years ago. That old CC would constantly work it's way to the top of the sand. Can I get away with just sand if I use tabs for the rooted plants?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Waterfaller1, I don't want to scare you or discourage you from buying Flora Base and trying it. It is ultimately your choice. However, you may find this review most interesting. According to this review on substrates which is one of the best I have seen, it lists Flora Base as a substrate to avoid for the following reason.
Substrates to Avoid. Source: http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2007/04/substrates-for-planted-aquarium.html
*

"Red Sea FloraBase

I almost bought this planted aquarium substrate as it was attractive and not too expensive. However, I looked up other's thoughts online and found out that although it is a great planted aquarium substrate for the first year or so, it requires replacing (it even says so on the label). Otherwise the granules, shaped similarly to ADA Aquasoil granules, will begin to lose their shape and "melt" into mush. This can be disastrous. Coupled with the fact that changing the substrate in an established tank is all but impossible without totally destroying it, this planted aquarium substrate is one to avoid unless you tear down your aquariums every year."*

It seems if you don't read the fine print, you can really get screwed by this stuff.

Of course capping it with sand may help compensate for some of this after math, but to what degree and whether this sets the stage for anaerobic pockets/hydrogen sulfide production with disasterous results or perhaps only results in increased conversion to harmless and possibly beneficial mulm under the sand without any disasterous results, one can only theorize and speculate without actually testing the substrate, so good luck whatever you decide.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Oh great..where were you a few days ago when it was recommended to me? I just set up a 10 gallon for shrimp with it...:icon_cry:


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

waterfaller1 said:


> Oh great..where were you a few days ago when it was recommended to me? I just set up a 10 gallon for shrimp with it...:icon_cry:


Perhaps it will still work out, one person who commented on the review disagreed, so don't lose hope, things may still work out for the best. Here is what the response was.

*"September 23, 2007 9:45 PM 
Anonymous said...

Hi , Great Blog.

My expeirience with Flora base -

Ive been using flora base in my tanks for a while now with good results. Personaly I do not feel the yearly change is an issue as most of the aquascapes I try to achieve have long since past their peak by this time (grown out). Does ADA aquasoil or ECO complete have an unlimited suppy of nutrient? does the exhaustion rate not depend on how heavily planted the aquarium is and which plant species are used? If the issue is simply that of the substrate breaking down or compacting I can honestly say ive seen no evidence of this after 18 months use, however I do not keep Corydoras catfish of other gravel shifting species. I may be tempted to use ECO complete in my next tank as it is so highly favoured but im in no hurry to remove the Flora base despite the manufacturers recommendation. I currently have a healthy lush green carpet of HC growing im my old Flora base.

Just my opinion!"*


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

I have seen people do this, as mentioned it will get mixed over time somewhat.



waterfaller1 said:


> Oh great..where were you a few days ago when it was recommended to me? I just set up a 10 gallon for shrimp with it...:icon_cry:


That review in my opinion isn't very accurate. It doesn't just "turn to mush" like it states. I replaced my 10g's flourite with it when I was redoing the tank. That tank was set up around april, and my 55g was set up two years ago this very month and it still hasn't turned to mush.

I find that this is better than the other common planted substrates and it is a bit cheaper in my area!

As with any clay like substrate and substrate in general MTS are great for helping the smaller particles settling to the bottom.

-Andrew


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Ok..well since I happen to have a bag of eco on hand now... ...maybe I will use it in the new tank. But I still want to make a sandy beach, at least just in the front...and I will...watch me...lol.


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

I am going with a strip of sand when I re do my tank, but I plan on using acrylic dividers to keep the two substrates separate.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

putty said:


> I am going with a strip of sand when I re do my tank, but I plan on using acrylic dividers to keep the two substrates separate.


 The sand can get anaerobic if water cannot circulate through it.


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I will use 2 inch acrylic strips running from side to side of the tank to allow for a strip of sand in the middle and other, more plant friendly substrate on either side.

I do not intend to use acrylic to separate layers of sand, IE I will not be putting acrylic between layers of substrate.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

I did understand, I still think it will block good flow through the substrate...but that's just my opinion.  What I did was use aluminum foil to make the separation between the sand and gravel, then removed it carefully.


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

I am not sure how much lateral flow there would be in the subsrate, as water tends to take the path of least resistance.

I may do your tinfoil idea, but was thinking that it would be nice to have permanent dividers to avoid contamination when uprooting plants etc.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

You can cleck on my 'user' tanks' and see mine. That pic is recent, and they have been up since sept. I have to knock an unruly piece of gravel back now and then, but they stay separated just fine.


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## Hassles (Jan 18, 2008)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Of course capping it with sand may help compensate for some of this after math, but to what degree and whether this sets the stage for anaerobic pockets/hydrogen sulfide production with disasterous results or perhaps only results in increased conversion to harmless and possibly beneficial mulm under the sand without any disasterous results.


Could you please offer an elaboration upon the gas pockets, the generation, cause and after effect ? I ask as I would love to know because I am considering a find sand substrate.

Thanks
Glenn


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Hassles said:


> Could you please offer an elaboration upon the gas pockets, the generation, cause and after effect ? I ask as I would love to know because I am considering a find sand substrate.
> 
> Thanks
> Glenn


I am in no way a chemist or biologist my understanding of this is based on what I have come across on researching anaerobic conditions and hydrogen sulfide production. Keep in mind that not everyone buys into this and there are those who claim to use very fine sand for growing plants without problems. Cause and effect relationships are difficult to prove in this hobby without running very tightly controlled experiments. The only way to know 100% sure is to put the idea to the test by setting up tanks side by side - one with very fine sand and one with planted tank substrate keeping all other things equal(same sized tanks, same tap water, same fert dosing, same stocking level, exact same plants, c02 injection or not in both tanks, and same level, intensity and duration of lighting).

When there is a lack of circulation and oxygen into a substrate, it is sand that hydrogen sulfide will result to the rapid decay of roots that get compacted by the very fine sand. Hydrogen sulfide gives off a rotten egg smell and is deadly to fish. Hydrogen sulfide bubbles in mass amounts will be given off by the substrate when this reaction hits full swing and could wipe out the inhabitants of the whole tank. With a 1-3 mm size sand or gravel and keeping the substrate stirred(either by having some malaysian trumpet snails that will burrow into the sand and keep it aerated, or fish that stir up the sand like cory catfish, some say that the problem can be avoided all together. Some say that even poking holes(using a hanger of chopsticks) in the substrate prior to replacing water during water changes can keep prevent the problem all together. And yet others say that keeping the substrate layer thin, no more than 2 inches can keep this reaction from happening all together.

The other school of thought says that this is all hogwash. There are many who have grown healthy aquarium plants in very fine sand for many years without problems. They point out that when plants root and grow in the sand they release oxygen, which prevents issues around hydrogen sulfide production underneath the substrate.

I plan to test Florabase, time and space permitting, in the following way. 1.5 to 2 inches Schultz Aquatic Soil layered on the bottom capped with 1.5 to 2 inches RedSea Florabase. The Flora and Schultz are equally porous. Eventually the flora will mix into the Schultz. The Schultz does not breakdown over time, so when the flora begins to turn to mud, the Schultz will still be around to keep the plants rooted and there should be no need to replace the substrate or add anything else. The Schultz has 1.5 to 2 mm grains and mud that remains and surfaces should be easy enough to siphon off and any that gets mixed with the Schultz should not cause problems and may benefit the plants by promoting mulm production or mixing with existing mulm, which may not necessarily be a bad thing. Again this view is all theoretical on my part and whether it plays out exactly like this in reality is impossible to say without trying. My guess is that the substrate layer will decrease from 3-4 inches down to 1.5-3 inches once the Florabase begins turning to mud, so starting off with a very deep substrate layer should not be a problem. Teporary dust clouds are likely for a while as the Flora begins turning to mud, but regular water changes and the filter should take care of most of this.


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