# dirted tanks



## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

Just use aquasoil......
Its literally straight up better version of dirt.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

I am very anti dirt after running a few tanks with it. Aquasoil is better in every way except cost, but, it's only going to cost you 20 dollars or less to put down a layer in most small tanks that will do the same thing as dirt.


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## Goodwood (May 5, 2021)

I have the same feeling about dirted tanks as @minorhero. Fluval Stratum seems to be less expensive than Aquasoil and works well. Next best thing may be pool filter sand and root tabs, which I have been impressed with latley.


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

I hated dirt. Tried it when I first got into planted tanks watching Dustins fish tanks. Capped it with some gross white sand I got from Petco. Every time I pulled plants out, dirt came up, and made the sand dirty. I never gave the tank longer than a few weeks. No doubt it works, but for me, ain't worth the cost savings.


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## tegra1027 (Nov 23, 2021)

Seems pretty unanimous. I've read a lot of experiences that are quite the opposite though. Ok well I guess I have some decisions to make. While I got you though, I have another related questions. Mostly related. I plan on using meshbags of lava rock to build up the substrate in the center. A large piece of driftwood will be on the high spot. Should I put a layer of aquasoil or dirt under the entire area of sand or just where I plan on using root feeder plants?


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

tegra1027 said:


> Seems pretty unanimous. I've read a lot of experiences that are quite the opposite though. Ok well I guess I have some decisions to make. While I got you though, I have another related questions. Mostly related. I plan on using meshbags of lava rock to build up the substrate in the center. A large piece of driftwood will be on the high spot. Should I put a layer of aquasoil or dirt under the entire area of sand or just where I plan on using root feeder plants?


Don't bother putting aquasoil under the mesh bags of lavarock. Beyond that I would just put down a layer pretty much everywhere else. You really don't know where you will put down plants 6+ months from now.


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## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

tegra1027 said:


> Seems pretty unanimous. I've read a lot of experiences that are quite the opposite though. Ok well I guess I have some decisions to make. While I got you though, I have another related questions. Mostly related. I plan on using meshbags of lava rock to build up the substrate in the center. A large piece of driftwood will be on the high spot. Should I put a layer of aquasoil or dirt under the entire area of sand or just where I plan on using root feeder plants?


You could use lava rock bags if you are short on budget. 
But you still need few cms of AS over that.
Ideally I would just fill it all using AS.

Never cap AS with sand. Or anything else.

There is no such thing as "root feeders". 
Every plant can grow well using only water column fertilization. (Or vice versa)
Is it harder? 
Yes there are some plants that are more picky when only fed through leaves. 
But those plants are not your traditional "root feeders" like crypts or echinodorus.


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## tegra1027 (Nov 23, 2021)

MoreliaViridis said:


> You could use lava rock bags if you are short on budget.
> But you still need few cms of AS over that.
> Ideally I would just fill it all using AS.
> 
> ...


This goes against so much that I've read on this forum. So so much. Nonsuch thing as root feeders? If that's the case, why use aquasoil or root tabs at all. 

Not to mention, everything I've read about dirted tanks, is to cap it. I'm sorry if I'm coming off a certain kind of way, but your comment through me for a loop.


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## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

tegra1027 said:


> If that's the case, why use aquasoil or root tabs at all.


It looks like you have no understanding about active substrate and CEC.
Read this.

You don't have to use aquasoil or root tabs or dirt or any substrate in that matter. 
But is it better to use rich substrate for plant growth? Yes. 100%

Can you have good plants using only water column ferts? Yes.
Can you have good plants using only substrate ferts? Yes.
Can you have good plants using both ways? Yes.
Each has its pros and cons. 
But AS is better substrate fertilization choice in every way possible than dirt.

AS is one of the most incredible breakthrough on aquascaping. Along with CO2 injection.




tegra1027 said:


> everything I've read about dirted tanks, is to cap it.


Aquasoil is not dirt.
You do not have to cap aquasoil.
There are literally BILLIONS of tanks with plain uncapped AS.


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## Goodwood (May 5, 2021)

tegra1027 said:


> This goes against so much that I've read on this forum. So so much. Nonsuch thing as root feeders? If that's the case, why use aquasoil or root tabs at all.
> 
> Not to mention, everything I've read about dirted tanks, is to cap it. I'm sorry if I'm coming off a certain kind of way, but your comment through me for a loop.


Not sure about the non-root feeder plants. But I aquasoil and similar substrates do not need a cap. A cap is only required when using actual dirt-like substances. If I was using something similar to Stratum or Aquasoil I would not cap it because it ends up mixing with the sand eventually and is not appealing to some. This would be the only reason I see for not capping it. _Feel free to educate me if I am wrong_

What is the general look you are going for your substrate? Light color substrate? Dark color? Sand? Gravel?


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

When people say ‘no such thing as heavy root feeders’, it means ‘there is almost no plant that intakes nutrients ONLY through the roots’. Plants feed through roots if given substrate or tabs rich in nutrients, through leaves if given lots of nutrition through the water column, and in fact water column ferts seep into inert substrate and can also be taken up by the roots..... wait we had a great discussion about that recently, I think someone had tagged you in it actually?

And yeah aquasoil actually suffers when capped because it makes it fall apart faster. Personally I really dislike the look of it but people who use it put it front and center. If you don’t want it showing, try making wabi kusa?


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## tegra1027 (Nov 23, 2021)

MoreliaViridis said:


> It looks like you have no understanding about active substrate and CEC.
> Read this.
> 
> You don't have to use aquasoil or root tabs or dirt or any substrate in that matter.
> ...


Rereading the last few comments, a few different terms got mixed up and caused some confusion. 

I've read up on it. I have a good enough understanding and will keep learning. I use AS (fluval stratum) in my 75 and I knew better not to cap it. I'm aware of inert and active substrates. In this tank, I plan on using dirt because I want to try it. Maybe I'll hate it, but then I'll know. I'll be capping it with black sand. 

There are plants that do better with nutrient uptake through their roots vs through their foliage. I was wondering for those plants, should I just put dirt where I planned on planting or just across the whole tank. 



LidijaPN said:


> When people say ‘no such thing as heavy root feeders’, it means ‘there is almost no plant that intakes nutrients ONLY through the roots’. Plants feed through roots if given substrate or tabs rich in nutrients, through leaves if given lots of nutrition through the water column, and in fact water column ferts seep into inert substrate and can also be taken up by the roots..... wait we had a great discussion about that recently, I think someone had tagged you in it actually?
> 
> And yeah aquasoil actually suffers when capped because it makes it fall apart faster. Personally I really dislike the look of it but people who use it put it front and center. If you don’t want it showing, try making wabi kusa?


Yes I was tagged in the conversation, and I got out of it exactly what you summarized here nicely written btw . I just don't see the point in using a substrate that will make it more difficult to grow nice lush plants. While some plants do feed better through their roots than foliage, why not feed their roots?


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## Jaguar (Oct 13, 2011)

I have a high tech dirt tank and two low tech dirt tanks. It's a bit messy when you move stuff around, but nothing that can't be fixed quick with a gravel vac. I wish I had sifted it a bit better, because the bark chunks float to the top and clog my hose, but otherwise I've not really encountered any major issues with it. I don't really like Aquasoil and Stratum - it's light and difficult to plant things in, and if you disturb it too much it turns to mud.

I'm still scarred from the time I spent like $75 on Amazonia and it disintegrated into muck after about a year.


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## tegra1027 (Nov 23, 2021)

Jaguar said:


> I have a high tech dirt tank and two low tech dirt tanks. It's a bit messy when you move stuff around, but nothing that can't be fixed quick with a gravel vac. I wish I had sifted it a bit better, because the bark chunks float to the top and clog my hose, but otherwise I've not really encountered any major issues with it. I don't really like Aquasoil and Stratum - it's light and difficult to plant things in, and if you disturb it too much it turns to mud.
> 
> I'm still scarred from the time I spent like $75 on Amazonia and it disintegrated into muck after about a year.


Thank you. I do find it difficult to plant in the stratum as well. There are a few areas where it has broken down and become more dense. It's easier in those areas. Thanks again for your experience.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Easy way to look at it. You can grow all plants with water column ferts including epiphytes, mosses, etc. but with root tabs you can only grow those with "roots" in the substrate. So the whole active substrate thing/root tab is optional while the water column dosing is not. I don't think anyone really knows for sure how much is taking up through the roots or leaves on different plants, but either way they can get it from the water column.


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## tegra1027 (Nov 23, 2021)

Asteroid said:


> Easy way to look at it. You can grow all plants with water column ferts including epiphytes, mosses, etc. but with root tabs you can only grow those with "roots" in the substrate. So the whole active substrate thing/root tab is optional while the water column dosing is not. I don't think anyone really knows for sure how much is taking up through the roots or leaves on different plants, but either way they can get it from the water column.


That's true. I have a friend locally to me that has a dirted tank. It's been established for 7 years and if I remember correctly, he does not fertilize. I'm going to have to pick his brain on that so be accurate though so don't hold me to it. His plans are doing very well. He told me that his Malaysian trumpet snails fertilize enough for him.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

Don't listen to anyone about substrates. All of them have benefits and issues. Choose what you like and just focus on the tank (i.e do what you have to do to keep it clean and healthy). You'll learn how to keep the substrate better that way

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


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## tegra1027 (Nov 23, 2021)

easternlethal said:


> Don't listen to anyone about substrates. All of them have benefits and issues. Choose what you like and just focus on the tank (i.e do what you have to do to keep it clean and healthy). You'll learn how to keep the substrate better that way
> 
> Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


You're right. I feel this is how every aspect of a planted tank has been anyway. So many opinions, cause and effect, different scenarios, etc etc. Thank you for your words of encouragement.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

easternlethal said:


> Don't listen to anyone about substrates. All of them have benefits and issues. Choose what you like and just focus on the tank (i.e do what you have to do to keep it clean and healthy). You'll learn how to keep the substrate better that way
> 
> Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


Why shouldn't he listen to people who have experience with different substrates? Of course they're are adv/disadv to all, but some are more appropriate than others depending on what your doing. For example if your doing an aquascape and going to be moving plants/hardscape around with good light, dirt is THE WORST THING YOU CAN USE, if you just want to grow plants and aren't fuzzy about the arrangement and don't plan on using co2 and don't mind using easy to grow, lower light plants than dirt is THE BEST THING YOU CAN USE. 

Walstad type tank vs ADA type tank, polar opposites.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

If he likes dirt he should learn how to use dirt

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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

easternlethal said:


> If he likes dirt he should learn how to use dirt
> 
> Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


If the dirt was the most important thing, then he could just put some dirt in a tank and stare at it all day in amazement. Generally it's what one wants to do with the tank. For most hobbyists you can't do the same thing with a dirt tank as you can with a granular soil/inert substrate tank. Not within normal/acceptable husbandry. So he should be aware of that based on what he wants to do with the tank.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

C'mon it's not rocket science to run a successful dirted tank 

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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

easternlethal said:


> C'mon it's not rocket science to run a successful dirted tank
> 
> Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


Can I see a pic of what you've done with a dirted tank?


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

Not that it's anyone's business nor is it relevant to discussing but this is a dirted tank I eventually capped after several years









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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

easternlethal said:


> Not that it's anyone's business nor is it relevant to discussing but this is a dirted tank I eventually capped after several years
> 
> Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


Nothing wrong with that. From what I can tell (pic is dark) looks like mostly low light plants. Also what's going on with the right side of the substrate. 

BTW: It's a forum where people share their experiences so of course it's relevant.


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## Goodwood (May 5, 2021)

I feel as if trying a dirted tank is a right of passage in this hobby. Do the dirt.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Goodwood said:


> I feel as if trying a dirted tank is a right of passage in this hobby. Do the dirt.


I could think of many rites of passage I'd rather skip, dirt being one of them.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

This tank had potting soil, manure, clay, diatomaceous earth, osmocote, iron oxide. Grew great until I decided to change the look and top it off with sand. Substrate is still active after so many years. Grows a ton of critters which the corys love.

Lit by a 300w commercial grow light and co2. There are a ton of low light plants like buce, crypts and ferns but it also has pogostemmon, repens, rotalias, mosses.

Not much different from an ADA tank actually.

You can't master substrate if you just use aquasoil all the time

Good fishkeeping handles any substrate









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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

easternlethal said:


> Not much different from an ADA tank actually.


I'm sorry, but I would have to disagree in the strongest possible terms.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

I feel like this is almost a clash of philosophies. We were discussing it somewhere else today...

One side is like ‘if you know what is the most optimal approach, why ever settle for anything that will give less than the best possible results?!?

And the other side is more like ‘if you want to truly understand how nature works, you have to be willing to let things go wrong, or be imperfect. It’s less about achieving results and more about experimenting and seeing what happens for yourself.’

I completely understand the first side but my heart is with the second...

It really depends on what you want from your tank.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (May 2, 2017)

I’m going to have to disagree about dirted tanks and not being able to keep a clean substrate when pulling up plants. If you lay down a retainer (mosquito netting/ some type of fine mesh material) you would be surprised how well it keeps the dirt in place. The major disadvantage to dirt is the preparation and planning required whereas AS can simply just be poured in, no cap required. Another issue with dirt is the source, unless everyone is buying the same bag then results will be skewed so it’s difficult to compare, in addition to what you may or may not add to the substrate from the beginning. I run a high tech dirt and I actually just rescaped, this time using fine mesh media bags. I then poured BDBS over it and planted, done. Dirt is an inexpensive option over AS, and I would only say AS advantage is it’s ease of use. I’ve used both, and I choose dirt because of its price over AS. Both work, it’s just a matter of preference and what your willing to do to have success.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> I’m going to have to disagree about dirted tanks and not being able to keep a clean substrate when pulling up plants. If you lay down a retainer (mosquito netting/ some type of fine mesh material) you would be surprised how well it keeps the dirt in place. The major disadvantage to dirt is the preparation and planning required whereas AS can simply just be poured in, no cap required. Another issue with dirt is the source, unless everyone is buying the same bag then results will be skewed so it’s difficult to compare, in addition to what you may or may not add to the substrate from the beginning. I run a high tech dirt and I actually just rescaped, this time using fine mesh media bags. I then poured BDBS over it and planted, done. Dirt is an inexpensive option over AS, and I would only say AS advantage is it’s ease of use. I’ve used both, and I choose dirt because of its price over AS. Both work, it’s just a matter of preference and what your willing to do to have success.


So your dirt is in the bags and doesn’t leach out but plant roots can reach inside into the bags? Really cool ⭐


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## Mr.Shenanagins (May 2, 2017)

LidijaPN said:


> So your dirt is in the bags and doesn’t leach out but plant roots can reach inside into the bags? Really cool ⭐


Yes! I wish I took a picture when I took down my last scape. I had a crypt that was so entangled in the mesh I laid down, I had to cut it out. Roots will dig deep a find a way into the mesh to reach the dirt. Crypt roots are thick and they managed to push through the fine mesh. If I pulled up plants, I would get the typical fine dust like you would pulling up AS, but not chunks and continuous stream of organic material escaping. The bags are my newest idea to make removing the dirt in the future easier. The mesh size of the bags is the same as the mosquito netting I used prior so I expect the same result.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> Yes! I wish I took a picture when I took down my last scape. I had a crypt that was so entangled in the mesh I laid down, I had to cut it out. Roots will dig deep a find a way into the mesh to reach the dirt. Crypt roots are thick and they managed to push through the fine mesh. If I pulled up plants, I would get the typical fine dust like you would pulling up AS, but not chunks and continuous stream of organic material escaping. The bags are my newest idea to make removing the dirt in the future easier. The mesh size of the bags is the same as the mosquito netting I used prior so I expect the same result.


Got a pic of the new scape?


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> Yes! I wish I took a picture when I took down my last scape. I had a crypt that was so entangled in the mesh I laid down, I had to cut it out. Roots will dig deep a find a way into the mesh to reach the dirt. Crypt roots are thick and they managed to push through the fine mesh. If I pulled up plants, I would get the typical fine dust like you would pulling up AS, but not chunks and continuous stream of organic material escaping. The bags are my newest idea to make removing the dirt in the future easier. The mesh size of the bags is the same as the mosquito netting I used prior so I expect the same result.


That sounds like the best way to use dirt!! Might try it in a future tank...

I’d love to see pics too! Of the old and the new!


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## Mr.Shenanagins (May 2, 2017)

First scape back in 2020








Second scape in 2021








Current scape (week old)








Lights are on dim at the moment so not very glamorous. Stem plants are all behind the rock pile, Hygrophila 53B, limnophila aromatica, Ludwigia super red and Rubin, some rotala mixed, a dwarf Lilly, smaller crypts, and then a lawn of dwarf sag. The wood is covered in pilo moss and hydrocotyle tripartita. I’ll soon be recieving more moss and mini pelia to help dress the rocks up some more. I haven’t added the sand and gravel in front of the rocks yet so bear with me! But behind the rocks I laid down the bags of soil (mixture of DynaDirt pond soil and some soil i mineralized last year from miracle gro organic, the black bag) and covered with blasting sand.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> First scape back in 2020
> View attachment 1040356
> 
> Second scape in 2021
> ...


Love all of them! Can’t wait to see how the new one grows in.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

I have two dirted tanks that are 2 years old. I don't regret using dirt, but it's ended up being a mismatch with my current goals. I thought I wanted tanks that were first and foremost low maintenance, but it turns out I actually I quite like doing the work. I now have these dense jungle tanks that are trouble free, but making changes is an enormous pain. I removed a dwarf sag carpet over several weeks from my shrimp tank and I never want to do that again. My new builds are using aquasoil for all the reasons already mentioned.

But I can't really fault the dirt. For a beginner who was really hesitant to sink too much money into the hobby right off the bat, who honestly believed a Walstad tank would be a good fit long term, it was a good choice! It grew my (easy) plants well, and hasn't been any trouble unless I want to pull up something with roots. If aquasoil didn't exist I would stick with dirt over an insert substrate no question, even though I'm well aware they work great for other people.

(Also, I think aquasoil is super ugly! I just don't really prefer dark substrates to begin with, and worse is the little uniform balls. I know now that I can cover it with plants so it's not a big concern but the idea of exposed aquasoil was very off-putting as a noob.)


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## tegra1027 (Nov 23, 2021)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> First scape back in 2020
> View attachment 1040356
> 
> Second scape in 2021
> ...


Did you strategically place the bags of soil or do you have the bags completely covering your planted area?


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## Mr.Shenanagins (May 2, 2017)

tegra1027 said:


> Did you strategically place the bags of soil or do you have the bags completely covering your planted area?


The bags cover the whole planting area. I laid them down where I knew I was planting after I did the hardscape.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

ElleDee said:


> (Also, I think aquasoil is super ugly! I just don't really prefer dark substrates to begin with, and worse is the little uniform balls. I know now that I can cover it with plants so it's not a big concern but the idea of exposed aquasoil was very off-putting as a noob.)


Omg this. I can’t get over how it looks. Tank full of bunny poop!! 🐰 

I like having some substrate showing and am not mad about carpet.... so the looks thing is really big for me.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (May 2, 2017)

Just for reference, my success is tied to this article on UKAPS by Tim Harrison The Soil Substrate or Dirted Planted Tank - A How to Guide


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> First scape back in 2020
> Second scape in 2021
> Current scape (week old)


Finally someone put their money where their mouth is. Those are very nice especially for using dirt. I still will tell people especially newbies it's far easier to use a granular soil than dirt. If your not moving stuff around then dirt isn't bad, but most people have a far harder time with dirt. Also the sand front is all sand so not an issue, but if you were planting all around with the cap it get's messy as noted by 



ElleDee said:


> ... I now have these dense jungle tanks that are trouble free, but making changes is an enormous pain. I removed a dwarf sag carpet over several weeks from my shrimp tank and I never want to do that again. My new builds are using aquasoil for all the reasons already mentioned.





LidijaPN said:


> Omg this. I can’t get over how it looks. Tank full of bunny poop!! 🐰
> 
> I like having some substrate showing and am not mad about carpet.... so the looks thing is really big for me.


LOL, I think your missing the point about Aquasoil. Most scapes your only putting aquasoil, where your planting. It's a waste of money to put it as just a dressing. Usually cosmetic sand would go where there isn't any plants, similar to what @Mr.Shenanagins did with this scapes. So you don't see the "bunny poop" there's plants on top of it.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (May 2, 2017)

Asteroid said:


> Finally someone put their money where their mouth is. Those are very nice especially for using dirt. I still will tell people especially newbies it's far easier to use a granular soil than dirt. If your not moving stuff around then dirt isn't bad, but most people have a far harder time with dirt. Also the sand front is all sand so not an issue, but if you were planting all around with the cap it get's messy as noted by


I’ll agree, and as stated, it’s not as simple as AS in terms of preparation and ease. But similar to AS when it comes to separation of different substrates, the AS will mix with anything else and make a mess just like dirt. I haven’t done a full planted tank in a long time, that may be my next step. My wife likes the cosmetic sand so for now it’ll stay, but man is it a “female dog” to maintain looking pretty.

appreciate the compliment as well 👍🏻


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> LOL, I think your missing the point about Aquasoil. Most scapes your only putting aquasoil, where your planting. It's a waste of money to put it as just a dressing. Usually cosmetic sand would go where there isn't any plants, similar to what @Mr.Shenanagins did with this scapes. So you don't see the "bunny poop" there's plants on top of it.


Eh I guess it’s just my impression from seeing tons of newly scaped tanks with massive pile of bunny poop and few little tufts of carpet that are meant to grow in later. I haven’t seen a mass of people use it like that, only in specific planting areas. Sure feels as I’m going through the threads that I see a lot of it exposed.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> ...Sure feels as I’m going through the threads that I see a lot of it exposed.


They're either not done scaping, waiting for a carpet to grow in or are amateurs LOL.



Mr.Shenanagins said:


> I’ll agree, and as stated, it’s not as simple as AS in terms of preparation and ease. But similar to AS when it comes to separation of different substrates, the AS will mix with anything else and make a mess just like dirt. I haven’t done a full planted tank in a long time, that may be my next step. My wife likes the cosmetic sand so for now it’ll stay, but man is it a “female dog” to maintain looking pretty.
> 
> appreciate the compliment as well 👍🏻


Of course, well deserved. Yeah the light sand does get dirty fast, between poop and bacteria, etc. If your using the cheap stuff like PFS easy just to vacuum out top layer and replace. I'm taking a break from the light sand and have been using black sand cosmetically in some new stuff.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (May 2, 2017)

Asteroid said:


> Of course, well deserved. Yeah the light sand does get dirty fast, between poop and bacteria, etc. If your using the cheap stuff like PFS easy just to vacuum out top layer and replace. I'm taking a break from the light sand and have been using black sand cosmetically in some new stuff.


Yes its PFS, I siphon it into another bucket and when the bucket is full I rinse and reuse. I haven’t tried using the black as cosmetic, to me it’s unnatural looking but would be a heck of a lot easier to clean and keep looking nice.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> They're either not done scaping, waiting for a carpet to grow in or are amateurs LOL.


None of those are rare 😅


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

Asteroid said:


> They're either not done scaping, waiting for a carpet to grow in or are amateurs LOL.


Well, when you are new you end up looking at a lot of new setups that haven't filled in, so there's a little built in bias when you end up seeing more exposed aquasoil. I know I did not really understand how my tank would look as it grew in in part because of that. 

I think a lot of people don't mind the look though, especially if they have a black background to go with it. And who am I to tell the fruit stand people they are doing their tanks wrong? They aren't amateurs, they have their own thing going on. (Ok, except for when they have little groups of rooted plants and it looks like a lil cabbage patch and I hate it. Please stop, guys. (But part of the reason I hate it is it emphasizes the substrate!))


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

ElleDee said:


> Well, when you are new you end up looking at a lot of new setups that haven't filled in, so there's a little built in bias when you end up seeing more exposed aquasoil. I know I did not really understand how my tank would look as it grew in in part because of that.
> 
> I think a lot of people don't mind the look though, especially if they have a black background to go with it. And who am I to tell the fruit stand people they are doing their tanks wrong? They aren't amateurs, they have their own thing going on. (Ok, except for when they have little groups of rooted plants and it looks like a lil cabbage patch and I hate it. Please stop, guys. (But part of the reason I hate it is it emphasizes the substrate!))


The fruit stand people I am literally crying hahahahahahahah!!! I knew there was a name for that lol. I hate it too but live and let live I guess. And laugh 😂


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

ElleDee said:


> Well, when you are new you end up looking at a lot of new setups that haven't filled in, so there's a little built in bias when you end up seeing more exposed aquasoil. I know I did not really understand how my tank would look as it grew in in part because of that.
> 
> I think a lot of people don't mind the look though, especially if they have a black background to go with it. And who am I to tell the fruit stand people they are doing their tanks wrong? They aren't amateurs, they have their own thing going on. (Ok, except for when they have little groups of rooted plants and it looks like a lil cabbage patch and I hate it. Please stop, guys. (But part of the reason I hate it is it emphasizes the substrate!))


The amateur comment was tongue in check, but I'm not sure what else your trying to say. Anyone who is experienced doesn't put aquasoil down for the look of it. They put it down because it's a fertile place for plants to grow. That's what your paying for. Aesthetically you use sand where you not planting. ADA actually sells a powder size aquasoil as well for smaller tanks for scale and to help plant carpets. Many put a layer of the powder AS over the "bunny poop" aquasoil. Here's a google search on ADA Gallery Japan which is pretty much a showcase for aquasoil. You'll see all the tanks either have plants over the aquasoil or cosmetic sand where they aren't planting.





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ada gallery japan - Google Search






www.google.com


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

Asteroid said:


> The amateur comment was tongue in check, but I'm not sure what else your trying to say. Anyone who is experienced doesn't put aquasoil down for the look of it. They put it down because it's a fertile place for plants to grow. That's what your paying for. Aesthetically you use sand where you not planting. ADA actually sells a powder size aquasoil as wlll for smaller tanks for scale and to help plant carpets. Many put a layer of the "bunny poop" aquasoil. Here's a google search on ADA Gallery Japan which is pretty much a showcase for aquasoil. You'll see all the tanks either have plants over the aquasoil or cosmetic sand where they aren't planting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm, yeah, I sense there's some miscommunication happening here between us, but unraveling it sounds tedious. I don't think we actually are disagreeing that much, but I'm not totally sure! Sorry for being unclear and then subsequently being too lazy to sort it out. 🥂


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Yeah I agree, I didn't think there was anything sinister going on. Could be me, got very little sleep last night.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (May 2, 2017)

@Asteroid It’s just the island rage talking no worries


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## Bootsy (Jul 4, 2021)

ElleDee said:


> (Ok, except for when they have little groups of rooted plants and it looks like a lil cabbage patch and I hate it. Please stop, guys. (But part of the reason I hate it is it emphasizes the substrate!))


It always reminds me of hair plugs.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Bootsy said:


> It always reminds me of hair plugs.


Same. Or doll hair.


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## Father Fish (10 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Why shouldn't he listen to people who have experience with different substrates? Of course they're are adv/disadv to all, but some are more appropriate than others depending on what your doing. For example if your doing an aquascape and going to be moving plants/hardscape around with good light, dirt is THE WORST THING YOU CAN USE, if you just want to grow plants and aren't fuzzy about the arrangement and don't plan on using co2 and don't mind using easy to grow, lower light plants than dirt is THE BEST THING YOU CAN USE.
> 
> Walstad type tank vs ADA type tank, polar opposites.


I have set up and encouraged thousands of dirted sand capped systems. Never had one fail.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Father Fish said:


> I have set up and encouraged thousands of dirted sand capped systems. Never had one fail.


Can you show me a few you have setup that show maybe a full Hemianthus callitrichoides (HC) carpet or a thicket of various stems like Rotala that have turned red from good lighting.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

I really don't understand your line of thought here. Dirt is a fertilised substrate. If you add co2 and high light why wouldn't you be able to grow these?









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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

easternlethal said:


> I really don't understand your line of thought here. Dirt is a fertilised substrate. If you add co2 and high light why wouldn't you be able to grow these?


You didn't quote me, but I'll assume your talking to me. 

Dirt/Walstad type tanks I typically low energy systems. You get slow steady growth buy using what's in the dirt and coupling it with low to medium light. Once you add co2 and high light your create a high energy system that will sooner or later need water column dosing and then water changes so your no longer doing a tank like described. If your adding co2, ferts and water changes, there's really very little need for the dirt and you would have an easier system to maintain by using something granular especially if your doing an aquascape where things will be moved around. Moving dirt around in a low energy system causes algae, doing it in a high light system will really get algae going.

Not saying it can't be done, but using granular or inert in a high light system is MUCH easier to maintain without algae issues, especially in a tank with limited plant mass and slow growers like anubias, ferns, etc. The difference is in an organically low tank, it's easier to grow those slow growers side by side with high light stems without getting algae issues.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> You didn't quote me, but I'll assume your talking to me.
> 
> Dirt/Walstad type tanks I typically low energy systems. You get slow steady growth buy using what's in the dirt and coupling it with low to medium light. Once you add co2 and high light your create a high energy system that will sooner or later need water column dosing and then water changes so your no longer doing a tank like described. If your adding co2, ferts and water changes, there's really very little need for the dirt and you would have an easier system to maintain by using something granular especially if your doing an aquascape where things will be moved around. Moving dirt around in a low energy system causes algae, doing it in a high light system will really get algae going.
> 
> Not saying it can't be done, but using granular or inert in a high light system is MUCH easier to maintain without algae issues, especially in a tank with limited plant mass and slow growers like anubias, ferns, etc. The difference is in an organically low tank, it's easier to grow those slow growers side by side with high light stems without getting algae issues.


What happens with a Walstad setup with medium/stronger light? Algae? Is it possible to have enough stems to outcompete the algae in spite of the light? 

What if the soil was in mesh bags like someone suggested and capped by an inert substrate, to ensure less escaping during replanting...? I feel like there is a golden middle point where a Walstad setup is still meaningful and doesn’t grow just anubias and hornwort.... at least I’d like there to be that point 😅


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> What happens with a Walstad setup with medium/stronger light? Algae? Is it possible to have enough stems to outcompete the algae in spite of the light?


More than likely yes, you'll have a much greater chance of getting algae due to the high organic load. There might be some confusion on what I mean by a "limited system" When you do a tank with weekly water changes and removing organics and in turn dosing ferts, using co2, etc. it gives you more freedom to plant anyway you want, weather it be thin or dense. Since your removing organics the tank doesn't really on the plants (more is always better) to do this. The water changes, etc takes the place of that. 

The Walstad type tank is more "limited" because it needs a certain amount of plants to cleanse the water. And also is limited in what you grow since very strong light will more than likely lead to algae and many plants need very strong light to look their best. So the more self-contained a system is the more it is limited. 




LidijaPN said:


> What if the soil was in mesh bags like someone suggested and capped by an inert substrate, to ensure less escaping during replanting...? I feel like there is a golden middle point where a Walstad setup is still meaningful and doesn’t grow just anubias and hornwort.... at least I’d like there to be that point 😅


The bags will definitely help, but it's going to leach organics into the system. If I remember correctly the person doing that was using the soil in key planting areas and the rest of it was sand. That would definitely cut down on the amount of organics compared to doing the entire bottom dirt. This is not an absolute argument. Of course there are skilled people using dirt in high light tanks, but overall it's not something for anyone, especially if your not experienced. It's just way easier to use a granular soil and to keep it aesthetically neat with reasonable husbandry. 

If you look online at Walstad Setup Guides you'll see what's recommended.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> More than likely yes, you'll have a much greater chance of getting algae due to the high organic load. There might be some confusion on what I mean by a "limited system" When you do a tank with weekly water changes and removing organics and in turn dosing ferts, using co2, etc. it gives you more freedom to plant anyway you want, weather it be thin or dense. Since your removing organics the tank doesn't really on the plants (more is always better) to do this. The water changes, etc takes the place of that.
> 
> The Walstad type tank is more "limited" because it needs a certain amount of plants to cleanse the water. And also is limited in what you grow since very strong light will more than likely lead to algae and many plants need very strong light to look their best. So the more self-contained a system is the more it is limited.
> The bags will definitely help, but it's going to leach organics into the system. If I remember correctly the person doing that was using the soil in key planting areas and the rest of it was sand. That would definitely cut down on the amount of organics compared to doing the entire bottom dirt. This is not an absolute argument. Of course there are skilled people using dirt in high light tanks, but overall it's not something for anyone, especially if your not experienced. It's just way easier to use a granular soil and to keep it aesthetically neat with reasonable husbandry.
> ...


Yeah ok that makes sense.... but do the aquasoils not also leach organics? Or, they do but it doesn’t matter because you’re changing water anyway? So you could just use soil as a cheap substitute for ADA and run it the same way as an ADA tank and it would work? (But not be Walstad of course). Hmmmm. Stick it into bags under where you’re planting and cover with sand...

I’m really interested in those spaces between the different accepted methodologies. Like I get the concept of your tanks, and the concept of Walstad tanks, but it really interests me to what point you can nudge and adapt things to hybridize the two...

I guess with the hybrid you run into trouble once the soil is depleted and you can’t easily replenish it if it’s in bags under sand... but at least it wouldn’t deteriorate like ADA? And you keep going with just ferts...... 

I am finding that my particular subset of plants (easy, to be sure, but there’s such variety, not like I miss the hard ones...) much lower ferts than EI are still keeping everyone very happy... it’s definitely still a work in progress tho.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

A few years ago mineralising dirt to get rid of all the humic substances was all the rage and there a lot of posts about people putting soil under the sun / in the oven. Then there were bags, then sandcaps and now there are plenums.

Figuring out the nutrient load & longevity, organics, CEC, aerobic or anaerobic conditions and then adjusting lights, co2, water changes and ferts accordingly whilst worrying about fish and plant health is a lot to handle - especially for beginners. 

But I trust that people are smart enough to make up their own minds and would still prefer to hear these alternatives. 

Diversity is good. If all one wants to do is read about one way of doing things there are loads of other sites which do just that.

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## Chucker (Apr 9, 2011)

easternlethal said:


> Figuring out the nutrient load & longevity, organics, CEC, aerobic or anaerobic conditions and then adjusting lights, co2, water changes and ferts accordingly whilst worrying about fish and plant health is a lot to handle - especially for beginners.
> 
> But I trust that people are smart enough to make up their own minds and would still prefer to hear these alternatives.


There is a very fine line here that is easy to trip across for the newcomer. The challenge is trying to set someone up for success, and then branch out from there. Some like to learn by doing, and have the experience to build upon, and others like to have something safe to start off with. And for anyone that has been online for any length of time, it's hard not to get burnt out fixing the same mistakes over and over whenever someone makes their first panicked post about their tank not running well. Hence the advice towards the more bulletproof routes to start with...


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## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

easternlethal said:


> Figuring out the nutrient load & longevity, organics, CEC, aerobic or anaerobic conditions and then adjusting lights, co2, water changes and ferts accordingly whilst worrying about fish and plant health is a lot to handle - especially for beginners.


I agree plants can grow well on plain soil...as well as on AS and inert substrate.
If you know what you are doing you don't even need substrate.

That being said AS already sorted that out for you.
Its much more consistant than dirt as long as you are using the same stuffs.
How much it leeches, how long does CEC last, how much WC etc etc...documented very well for popular products.

Also there is added benefit of easily moving plants without turning entire tank into mud bath.
AS can last surprisingly long before turning into mud when its properly taken care of. It has been demonstrated for 5+years at least..


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## DuckEgg (10 mo ago)

2months after setup.2ftx2ftx4ft
Photo just after trimming and replanting most of my stem plants as they had reached the surface already.
The carpeting plants are spreading well, dwarf hairgrass, dwarf baby tears (clumps in middle), glossostigma, lillaeopsis.

Using only topsoil, will some gravel to cap and stop soil shifting, maximum gravel thickness 1cm, some exposed soil for my Malaysia trumpet snails.

Topsoil minimum thickness 5cm, max 25cm
Layer of river rock under soil, more stacked at back for hides for shrimp etc.

I had my river rock and big stick sitting in water for a few weeks until the GH/KH/ph blanced so I could add extra rock to get the rough parameters I wanted before setup.
Basically creating a natural buffer.

I have always preferred using dirt because If I put in the effort at the start I don't seem to have put it in at the end.

My older tanks before I moved, established roughly 3-4years. 

One (dirt) I just topped off the water, because the parameters were always fine, but found more fine particles in the filter media.
The other(gravel) I was vacuuming substrate and doing partial water changes, less growth, because of high nitrate levels.

I personally don't recommend potting soil, top soil from a landscaping yard is cheap and will have more than enough mineral content.
If you're looking for crystal clear water and you're going to disturb (pull up plants) the substrate often dirt probably isn't for you.

The fish/invertebrates also will determine your substrate.


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