# 75 Gallon Planted



## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Hello everyone, on the advice of other members here I am starting my tank Journal as a way to share what I am doing and to keep a record of things I have done with our tank. This forum is a fantastic place to get great advice and information and I look forward to learning, enjoying and hopefully pitching in when I can!

M family and I inherited a tank and stand from my Father-in-Law. He had had the tank for a few years but gave up on the hobby and it sat for a long time collecting dust. Prior to moving houses, I had a 500 gallon Salt Water tank with a 150-gallon refugium. I was working a huge amount of hours and away from home for weeks at a time, so we had a company that came in weekly and manged the tank for us. When we moved into our current house, we really didn't have room for the setup and so we got rid of it. Years later, when my father-in-law offered us his old tank we decided to give freshwater a try and my personal goal was to do it all myself as opposed to having an outside company come in to manage the tank for us.

I am a pilot by occupation but a tech geek by hobby. When we rebuilt our pool some years ago I could not find a decent automated pool system so I wrote my own. Now several years and over 6,000 lines of Python/C++ code later it has full Alexa integration, automated acid dosing, automated filling, filtering, pH, ORP and temperature monitoring, web interface and more. Using Raspberry Pis, Arduino clones and Linux I have an amazing pool control system. My family thinks I am crazy to spend so much time on that project, but it is _my_ way of relaxing.

So when we decided to put in a new tank, I knew that it would eventually be a high-tech tank. I wanted to have it all monitored, managed, tracked and graphed the way our pool has been. But first I needed to get the tank up and running.

After doing some reading and research, I started out by deciding not to use the two smaller Fluval filters that we got with the tank, although I would eventually add back in the 406. It was a Fluval 306 and 406 and instead went with the Fluval FX6. Taking a cue from our saltwater system I decided to install a RODI system on the tank so all that I had to do was hook up a special hose I put together, empty some water and turn on the hose and the tank would top off or refill with RODI water. Our water here in Phoenix is very hard so I thought this would be the best place to start.

So here is what I have on the tank (and have coming) as of today (1/1/2020):


*Installed June 2019*

Tank: 75 Gallon Curved Glass with wood stand

*Equipment*
1 x Fluval FX6 - Installed with tank
1 x Fluval 406 (added October 2019) (Biomedia Only (Seachem Matrix Biomedia))
2 x Fluval Plant Spectrum Bluetooth Freshwater Light LED (Version 3.0) 6,500K
1 x Fluval Advanced Electronic Aquarium Heater (300 Watt)
1 x Inkbird ITC-308 Digital Temperature Controller 2-Stage Outlet
1 x Seneye Reef System with Web Server and 2 x leak detectors
1 x Jebao Programmable Auto Dosing Pump DP-4
1 x Aquatic Life Twist-in 100 GPD 4-Stage Ro Unit
1 x 20# CO2 Tank
1 x CO2Art Dual Stage CO2 Regulator System
1 x DIY CO2 Reactor
1 x GKM 24W UV Lamp (Installed 1/10/2020)

Substrate is CaribSea Eco-Complete 20-Pound Planted Aquarium, Black
Several rocks and some wood purchased from our local fish store 

*Tracking and Management Software*
So I was looking for some kind of tracking software that was free or inexpensive and could track expenses, water changes, dosing, etc.
I looked at a bunch of different programs but we finally landed on this one, it was like $10 a year and workes on our computers and 
phones:

Aquarimate


*Water Readings from 3/2/2020*
*Tank Water*
kH - 2
gH - 8
PO4 - 5
pH - 7.1
Nitrate - 50
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - 0.013
EC - 539 µS
TDS - 296 ppm

*Tap Water*
kH - 7
gH - 16
PO4 - .25
pH - 7.4
Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - 0
EC - 780 µS
TDS - 400 ppm

All test completed API test kits!


*Current Plants*
I don't know the names so I will have to fill this in later

*Current Fish*
I don't know the names so I will have to fill this in later

So here are pictures of the tank and setup from oldest to newest:









_Trying to decide if I should use both filters..._









_Just getting started!_









_Mounting the RODI system under the cabinet..._









_Mounted and tested_









_Starting the fill process_
_The RODI line comes up the back of the tank and into the tank by the filter return_









_Still filling...._









_It took the better part of the day to fill the tank, here it is a few days later.._









_Looking good..._









_Adding more plants and a few fish..._









_More still...._









_HOY COW! What Happened?_
_Came back after a flight to find the tank looking like this...._









_At least I know I am good at growing algae!_

*We eventually got control of it, three days of blackout took care of it...*









_Back to looking good..._


*Everyone in the family likes the new fish tank....*

























































The tank was looking good, I thought we had it all figured out!




















But then we started to lose fish! But the weird thing was that we could never find the bodies of the fist, they were just disappearing.
Then one night we were in the living room watching tv when one of our cats jumped up on the fish tank, reached in the opening next to the filter return, 
scooped up one of our angelfish and art it before we could even comprehend what had just happened. 

I _hated_ losing the fish but we were laughing so hard we soon forgot about the fish and now we knew where the fish were going. So we had to make a slight alteration to the tank to fix the glitch:









_The fix is in..._


All was right with the world but then we started having issues with our plants:















































Which in turn resulted in THIS THREAD!


So I am currently (as of 1/1/2020) waiting on my CO2 system and getting ready to hit some water changes pretty hard to get control of my water readings. I am also going to start the PPS-Pro method of adding and dosing ferts into my tank. I have a lot of work ahead of me and I am really
excited to moot only have the tank but also that I found this amazing forum. I look forward to sharing my progress and to watching other tanks for great ideas!

Oh, I wanted to add some information about the Seneye system. It was pretty inexpensive for what it actually does. I have a lot of experience with monitoring and management of pool water and what it takes to get accurate readings on a regular basis so when I started with my tank I wanted to do the same for it that I do with my pool control system. I looked around for some cool solutions and thought I had hit the motherload when I ran across Open Aquarium. This was an Arduino based microcontroller solution that did everything that I wanted it to do. It was awesome and amazing and more importantly, I already knew how to program the Arduino since my pool control system utilizes a bunch of them.











Unfortunately, the company that made Open Aquarium stopped selling it and it is no longer available. 

There were other solutions based on the Raspberry Pi, but none of them were really prime-time ready. I am more than happy as a DIYer but I was not really sure I wanted to take on another big programming project. The closest thing I was able to find that may end up working out for me was an open-source project called reef-pi. On the end, I decided to start with an inexpensive monitoring solution called Seneye. For less than $500 I get temperature, pH, ammonia, NH4, dissolved oxygen, and PAR and LUX monitoring along with two water leakage sensors and a water level sensor. All of those items can be set to alert me if something happens or goes past the threshold that I have set for them.

My guess is that I will eventually build my self a version of the reef-pi because those types of projects really interest me, but for the cost, you cannot beat Seneye as a monitoring device.


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

I’ll be watching should be able to get it going the way you want pretty quick.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

What an excellent journal to start us off with! 

I think high tech will be right up your alley- and this hobby has a lot of interesting tech that will keep you well satisfied for along time. Thats whats so great about keeping aquariums, you can make it as technical as you would like. We all have our preferences in how we like to approach the hobby. 

If you take individual pictures of your fish I can identify them for you and tell you a little about them. I see neon tetras, rasboras, Angels, skirt tetras, and Red-eye tetras; but, that doesn't tell you much of anything if you cant identify which is which. 

Thanks for sharing !


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## kgbudge (Feb 8, 2019)

I, too, have kitties, one of whom particularly loves to get up on the supply cabinet next to the tank and watch the fish. She occasionally bats at one swimming by. The hunter instinct is just irresistible, I guess.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> What an excellent journal to start us off with!
> 
> I think high tech will be right up your alley- and this hobby has a lot of interesting tech that will keep you well satisfied for along time. Thats whats so great about keeping aquariums, you can make it as technical as you would like. We all have our preferences in how we like to approach the hobby.
> 
> ...


Thank You! Not sure if this will work or how good the pictures are but let's give it a try:

Fish Album

It is actually kind of hard to take clean pics of these guys at night when they are moving around. 

Bump: Well, ready for another water change first thing in the morning:


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Well, we completed another water change, I will be retesting the water here once the tank settles back down. I drafted my youngest to help and so far the fish look just as happy as they always have been, hopefully I am getting the water levels where they need to be. I will post updated water readings once I get that done. This water change was 25 gallons of 100% RODI. 










OK, So my son and I completed our DIY reactor build partially based on Rex's design and feedback from several other forums about adding a bypass to help control water flow into and through the reactor as opposed to splitting the water flow to help dissolve more CO2if the flow rate was too high.

I have to say that not only did I immensely enjoy spending time working with my son, but it was also a lot of fun building and installing the reactor. I was very pleased when we managed to get it built and installed with no water leaks at all. 

After reading on this and other forums, I decided to design the reactor with a bypass allowing me to regulate the flow of water out of my Fluval 406 through the reactor chamber. I read a lot about people having too much water flow through their reactor and thus not giving the CO2 enough time to dissolve into the water stream and seeing CO2 bubbles being pumped into the tank instead. I used a 2" heavy-duty clear plastic tube as my chamber, roughly 24" end-to-end. I used standard PVC, hose clamps and glue to put it all together. Once completed it went into our swimming pool to soak out all of the glue smell!

About ~2 " below the top of the reactor, I drilled a hole in the hose and pulled through my CO2 hose so that the bubbled entered the water stream directly in the middle of the stream. I had to use a heat gun to warm up the hoses in order to get them on the connections and then I used hose clamps on each of the hoses. I used Teflon tape on the barbs.









_Dry fitting all of the pieces._









_The "reactor chamber" is a very thick piece of tubing._









_CO2 delivery line installed so the CO2 enters the water stream directly in the middle._









_Completed reactor_









_Making the connection to the outflow of the Fluval 406 filter._









_Connection from the outflow of the reactor at the bottom back to the tank._









_Final resting place. We need to add one more clamp to keep it tidy._









_We can see the CO2 bubbles being forced down the reactor._


So I have started my CO2 flow pretty low, 1 bps. I added a drop checker to the tank and after running CO2 most of the day it is still nowhere near green! I want to take it slow. Since I just did a water change I was not sure how accutate the pH/kH chart would be so I figured I would adjust a little bit each day until the drop checker turns green. Based on this chart, with a pH of 7 and a 3 dKH, I think I am at 9PPM CO2 and I think I should be shooting for 15 to 25ppm from what I have read so far.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Nice job!

You have got the bug!

This is shaping up to be a good journal to follow.

As I mentioned in your other thread, 1 bps is almost nothing.

With a 75G, it will be almost a steady stream. Most here shoot for at least a 1 point drop. Some like me even more, like 1.35 peak drop.

keep in mind that drop checker takes hours to change color. A pH meter is a much better tool.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Nice job!
> 
> You have got the bug!
> 
> ...


Thank You! I have the Seneye system that takes my pH reading (as well as others) like once every 10 minutes. So far I have seen it go from 7.15 to 7, so I guess it is going in the right direction. 

Quick question - I thought with a reactor that you needed a lot less CO2 since it was getting more dissolved in the water prior to entering the tank. Is this correct? 

Right now, I have the water flow into the reactor set pretty low since (as I understand the process) the longer the CO2 stays in the reactor the more of it dissolves into the water. I still have a few bubbles coming out of my tank water return, but nowhere near the amount of the CO2 I think I am adding. Is this a sound understanding of the process? I think I am aiming for an adjustment that has the least number of free bubbles of CO2 entering into the take, correct?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Thank You! I have the Seneye system that takes my pH reading (as well as others) like once every 10 minutes. So far I have seen it go from 7.15 to 7, so I guess it is going in the right direction.
> 
> Quick question - I thought with a reactor that you needed a lot less CO2 since it was getting more dissolved in the water prior to entering the tank. Is this correct?
> 
> Right now, I have the water flow into the reactor set pretty low since (as I understand the process) the longer the CO2 stays in the reactor the more of it dissolves into the water. I still have a few bubbles coming out of my tank water return, but nowhere near the amount of the CO2 I think I am adding. Is this a sound understanding of the process? I think I am aiming for an adjustment that has the least number of free bubbles of CO2 entering into the take, correct?


If the reactor is sized correctly with the right flow you should not see ANY bubbles in the tank. They should all be dissolved.

And even with a reactor you will need a good deal of flow to get correct pH drop. Like I said, almost a steady stream, too many bubbles to count. Right now going from 7.15 to 7.00 is almost nothing.

I'd keep turning up the flow, while keeping an eye on the Seneye and the fish. Unlike a bubble counter, the pH drop is pretty much immediate. Try and bring it down to a full point drop and make note of the bubble counter flow. Personally I use a Dwyer RMA-151-ssv flow meter rather than a bubble counter, as to me it makes adjustments much easier. 

Here's a link to a discussion in my journal.........

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1020497-greggz-120g-rainbow-fish-tank-new-video-12-28-2019-a-66.html#post10821809


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Nice job!
> 
> You have got the bug!
> 
> ...


1 bps would be woefully insufficient in my 20 gallon at this point. Agreed with Greggz, the CO2 bubbles should be fully dissolved. 

I know it's not as DIY, but a Neptune Apex is where it's at for aquarium control. Example below of pH monitoring: Can you you see where my CO2 ran out?


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> If the reactor is sized correctly with the right flow you should not see ANY bubbles in the tank. They should all be dissolved.
> 
> And even with a reactor you will need a good deal of flow to get correct pH drop. Like I said, almost a steady stream, too many bubbles to count. Right now going from 7.15 to 7.00 is almost nothing.
> 
> ...


Got it. Right now there is a lot of air in the reactor once I start doing the bypass and cutting down the flow, but from reading other forums this is normal. It is after dark now so the CO2 is off, but I will play around with it some more tomorrow morning to see what it takes to get the pH to drop a full point. 

As far as sizing the reactor, all Rex said on hissite was to use 2" pvc for the reactor chamber which I did. So if I am still getting bubbles, does that mean I need a larger than 2" reactor or smaller? The logic would say larger since it would have more water. I still have quite a bit on the bypass left to play with to slow down the flow so I can give that a try as well. 

I'll play around some more tomorrow and report back what I find out. I also need to do my water measurements again tomorrow. I did another water change today trying to bring down my readings. My TDC/EC started at 1500 us and is now at 800 us so I think I am heading in the direction. I'll measure everything else tomorrow. I will take a look at the Dwyer.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

I'm glad I'm not the only planted tank hobbyist running Apex Fusion.


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## Squisher (Nov 18, 2019)

Super cool journal and tank/setup. 

I will just add like others that you will need a lot more than 1bps. I just started co2 on Boxing Day (inline diffuser so bubble city lol) in my 45g and like you I started slow. 1bps to 3 ish and so on and so forth to get my drop checker in the green I'd just be guessing at the bubbles per second now but somewhere in the neighbourhood of many to lots. Granted my setup is inherently less efficient. 

Again. Really nice setup. I'll be curious to follow along as it progresses.


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

Reactor looks good just go slow and keep your eye on it as you adjust the rate up. This will be one of the best 75 in no time


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

MD500_Pilot said:


> My TDC/EC started at 1500 us and is now at 800 us so I think I am heading in the direction.


1500µS seems high to me? So does 800µS if we are talking conductivity.
TDC/EC ???

All of my tanks hover around 475µS which is about 215ppm TDS as NaCl

Go for the full point 1.0pH drop and as @Greggz suggests the flow meter is worth looking into!

Counting bubbles is a joke, I have so many bubbles in 3 counters next to each other I'd go bat shiitake crazy trying to count them all!
Don't really recommend drop checkers either due to slow reaction times.
Now a pH controller could be a good item for some but I've not had use for one yet.
Was able to solve pH measurement very quickly without constantly adjusting CO2 flow.


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## lamyers3 (Oct 17, 2017)

Enjoyed reading your post “Super High Phosphates - is this killing my plants?” and now your tank journal, you do seem to be headed in the right direction.

One thing that I may suggest is to buy a couple Rubbermaid Brute trash cans with wheels for doing your water changes. Use one to fill with your RO water, so you can re-mineralize the water and adjust temp before adding to your tank. The other one use to drain the tank. This will make water changes a lot easier.

Looking forward to see how your tank comes along. Like Greggz said, may want to slow down a little and enjoy the journey. :thumbsup:


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

Nice journal! 

I see you have the NA co2 reactor as part of your equipment list. Did you ditch this for the DIY build shown in your thread?


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> 1 bps would be woefully insufficient in my 20 gallon at this point. Agreed with Greggz, the CO2 bubbles should be fully dissolved.
> 
> I know it's not as DIY, but a Neptune Apex is where it's at for aquarium control.


Yeah, I looked at the Apex but ended up with the Seneye as it had more monitoring with a nice API. It is not a control system, but then I run my filters 24x7 and the only thing I need to control is my solenoid on my CO2 system now!


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## Neonblitz (Jan 4, 2020)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Hello everyone, on the advice of other members here I am starting my tank Journal as a way to share what I am doing and to keep a record of things I have done with our tank. This forum is a fantastic place to get great advice and information and I look forward to learning, enjoying and hopefully pitching in when I can!
> 
> M family and I inherited a tank and stand from my Father-in-Law. He had had the tank for a few years but gave up on the hobby and it sat for a long time collecting dust. Prior to moving houses, I had a 500 gallon Salt Water tank with a 150-gallon refugium. I was working a huge amount of hours and away from home for weeks at a time, so we had a company that came in weekly and manged the tank for us. When we moved into our current house, we really didn't have room for the setup and so we got rid of it. Years later, when my father-in-law offered us his old tank we decided to give freshwater a try and my personal goal was to do it all myself as opposed to having an outside company come in to manage the tank for us.
> 
> ...


Beautiful build. Word of advice: stop using RODI water for your planted tank. I have both a reef tank and heavily planted high tech 55gal. I only use RODI in my reef. The reason: RODI is stripped of minerals which is fine if you are mixing the minerals back in (salt mix) but you cannot probably re-mineralize RODI for your planted tank. The algae is out competing your plants is the short answer. Bottom line: use tap water+seachem prime for your tank and I guarantee you will be stunned at the results. Speaking from experience just FYI. 👍


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Neonblitz said:


> Beautiful build. Word of advice: stop using RODI water for your planted tank. I have both a reef tank and heavily planted high tech 55gal. I only use RODI in my reef. The reason: RODI is stripped of minerals which is fine if you are mixing the minerals back in (salt mix) *but you cannot probably re-mineralize RODI for your planted tank.* The algae is out competing your plants is the short answer. Bottom line: use tap water+seachem prime for your tank and I guarantee you will be stunned at the results. Speaking from experience just FYI. 👍


You absolutely can do this and it allows for very tight control of your water parameters. Tap water varies wildly by location so what might work for one person might not for another. Starting with RODI basically allows you to tailor your water parameters to exactly what you want.

As to the Apex, I've found I can't live without it. Heater goes nuts? Apex alerts me and shuts it down. pH gets to low? Apex cuts off power to the CO2 solenoid. Evaporation? No problem with two float switches, a pump and a reservoir you've got an auto-topoff. Everything is adjustable/programmable and can be monitored and adjusted from anywhere you have an internet connection. It's just a tremendous asset to any aquarium.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Neonblitz said:


> Word of advice: stop using RODI water for your planted tank.


Huh? 

There are loads of first class planted tanks that use RO water. Very easy to remineralize to any specific parameters you choose.

Whether it's worthwhile depends much on your source water.

For those (like me) with very high KH source water, RO is a game changer.


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## Neonblitz (Jan 4, 2020)

Greggz said:


> Neonblitz said:
> 
> 
> > Word of advice: stop using RODI water for your planted tank.
> ...


 Hardness can be easily buffered to desired range. Never seen tap water that cannot be successfully treated with prime and proper gaseous exchange time. I agree you can use RODI but it takes much more work for the same results.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Neonblitz said:


> Hardness can be easily buffered to desired range. Never seen tap water that cannot be successfully treated with prime and proper gaseous exchange time. I agree you can use RODI but it takes much more work for the same results.


Really?

How does one buffer 20 KH water down to 1 KH? With prime and gaseous exchange?

And I don't doubt you personally may have experienced better results with tap vs RO, but extrapolating that to the hobby in general is painting with a very wide brush stroke.

Many find RO water well worth the trouble and achieve much better results. Again, much depends on the source water.

You should start a journal. Would love to see your results.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Neonblitz said:


> Beautiful build. Word of advice: *stop using RODI water for your planted tank*. I have both a reef tank and *heavily planted high tech 55gal.* I only use RODI in my reef. The reason: RODI is stripped of minerals which is fine if you are mixing the minerals back in (salt mix) *but you cannot probably re-mineralize RODI for your planted tank*. *The algae is out competing your plants is the short answer.* Bottom line: use tap water+seachem prime for your tank and I guarantee you will be stunned at the results. Speaking from experience just FYI. 👍





Neonblitz said:


> *Hardness can be easily buffered* to desired range. Never seen tap water that cannot be successfully treated with *prime and proper gaseous exchange* time. I agree you can use RODI but it takes much more work for the same results.


What an early afternoon getting off to a great start I see! >
New journal @Neonblitz ??? :grin2:
Many of us are from Missouri and absolutely enjoy pictures. :|

Think there should be a Not-Like button.


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

How do you like the seneye, 
Also does it have to be connected to a pc or the WiFi interface all the time or can you just connect it like say on the weekend and get a report. 
How accurate is the par reading for led lights.


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## Neonblitz (Jan 4, 2020)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Neonblitz said:
> 
> 
> > Beautiful build. Word of advice: *stop using RODI water for your planted tank*. I have both a reef tank and *heavily planted high tech 55gal.* I only use RODI in my reef. The reason: RODI is stripped of minerals which is fine if you are mixing the minerals back in (salt mix) *but you cannot probably re-mineralize RODI for your planted tank*. *The algae is out competing your plants is the short answer.* Bottom line: use tap water+seachem prime for your tank and I guarantee you will be stunned at the results. Speaking from experience just FYI. 👍
> ...


Sorry you are offended by chemistry.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Neonblitz said:


> Sorry you are offended by chemistry.


It was actually the heresy. :|


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## Neonblitz (Jan 4, 2020)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Neonblitz said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry you are offended by chemistry.
> ...


Yeah heaven forbid someone say the emperor is naked.


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

Neonblitz said:


> Hardness can be easily buffered to desired range. Never seen tap water that cannot be successfully treated with prime and proper gaseous exchange time. I agree you can use RODI but it takes much more work for the same results.


Maybe you need to explain "easily buffered", "successfully treated" and maybe even "takes much more work for the same results".

For the record...

Prime will not change hardness levels for an aquarium.

Gaseous exchange will not change hardness levels for an aquarium.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Matt69 said:


> How do you like the seneye,
> Also does it have to be connected to a pc or the WiFi interface all the time or can you just connect it like say on the weekend and get a report.
> *How accurate is the par reading for led lights*.


I think BRS did a study of the Seneye vs. Apogee and other high end PAR meters. The Seneye performed exceptionally well. I don't use mine for anything but checking PAR.

Here is the study:






Bump:


Neonblitz said:


> Yeah heaven forbid someone say the emperor is naked.


I would guess Guppy meant hearsay and not heresy, which is what your claim is until proof is provided.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Neonblitz said:


> Yeah heaven forbid someone say the emperor is naked.


In all fairness to the OP, he's just started this journal thread, and it looks like it should be a good one.

I am sure he doesn't want it cluttered up with argumentative hyperbole. 

If you really want to have a discussion about RO vs. tap, and have strong opinions about it, you should consider starting your own thread.


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

TheUnseenHand said:


> I think BRS did a study of the Seneye vs. Apogee and other high end PAR meters. The Seneye performed exceptionally well. I don't use mine for anything but checking PAR.
> 
> Here is the study:
> 
> ...




Thanks for the link looks like it would be nice for a par meter and maybe starting a new tank 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

pauld738 said:


> Nice journal!
> 
> I see you have the NA co2 reactor as part of your equipment list. Did you ditch this for the DIY build shown in your thread?


Actually I did, it was going to take a week to order one so my son and I built one instead!

Bump:


Squisher said:


> Super cool journal and tank/setup.
> 
> I will just add like others that you will need a lot more than 1bps. I just started co2 on Boxing Day (inline diffuser so bubble city lol) in my 45g and like you I started slow. 1bps to 3 ish and so on and so forth to get my drop checker in the green I'd just be guessing at the bubbles per second now but somewhere in the neighbourhood of many to lots. Granted my setup is inherently less efficient.
> 
> Again. Really nice setup. I'll be curious to follow along as it progresses.


Thank you. I have bumped it up now to an almost steady flow, the drop checker is now green and my pH has dropped about 1/2 point so far. I didn't want to open it up too much. Also, I have been playing around with my DIY reactor and I think I am going to throw some plastic bio-balls in the chamber to help with the diffusion.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Been following along, and just wanted to say great start to this journal. Really enjoying reading about the whole experience, equipment, etc.

Looking forward to seeing where this goes!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

OK, so I have been battling high phosphates (11+) and zero nitrates. I also have very high EC/TDS (started at 1504 μS EC and 654 ppm TDS). I have listed my tap numbers above but they were basically 780 μS and 400 ppm. My RO was zero/zero.

So over the last four days I have done 3 water changes:

December 31st - 10 Gallons
January 1st - 25 Gallons
January 3rd - 25 Gallons

This was 100% RODI Water. 

Here are my water readings after the water change yesterday - I did the testing this afternoon and while it does look like it is improving, I am shocked after 60 gallons of 100% RODI water in less than a week that the numbers were not drastically lower. 

*Tank Readings 1/4/2020*
2 - dKH 
9 - dGH
11 - PO4
6.4 - pH
1 ppm - Nitrate
0 ppm - Nitrite
.2 ppm - Ammonia
80 Degrees F - Temp
447 ppm - TDS
894 μS - EC


So I am currently waiting on all of my stuff from NA for my dosing so I have just continued to dose with Seachem. 

I think my next step will be to do a really, really, really good substrate vacuum. I have done some very slight vacuuming during my water changes but not super good.

I am seeing _good_ improvement in GH (from 16 to 11) and a _slight_ improvement in EC/TDS, but not much else. I am still trying to come to grips with RO vs tap and mixing, etc, but right now I am just doing my best to get my water back where it needs to be and as high as my PO4 and gH is I figured RODI is the best for now. I think the PPS-Pro system will be a big help as well as more aggressive (~30% to 50%) weekly water changes.

As always, I apprecaite all the good feedback and I am learning a lot. 

My goal is to get a 180 gallon planted tank here in the next few months and I would really like to learn and understand this tank first before moving to a larger tank and having the same issues, and I have a ton more questions about overflow vs non-overflow and how it relates to CO2 injectioning, etc. But that is going to be a discussion for another day!

Bump:


lamyers3 said:


> Enjoyed reading your post “Super High Phosphates - is this killing my plants?” and now your tank journal, you do seem to be headed in the right direction.
> 
> One thing that I may suggest is to buy a couple Rubbermaid Brute trash cans with wheels for doing your water changes. Use one to fill with your RO water, so you can re-mineralize the water and adjust temp before adding to your tank. The other one use to drain the tank. This will make water changes a lot easier.
> 
> Looking forward to see how your tank comes along. Like Greggz said, may want to slow down a little and enjoy the journey. :thumbsup:


That is sooo funny you mentioned that. We are buying two 275 gallon IBC tote tanks, one for my RODI water and one for the old water from my fish tank. My wife has a huge garden thing going on and we have been using the old water from our fish tank to water the plants and they seem to love it so far!

And yeah, my youngest daughter is getting tired of moving 5-gallon buckets of RODI water around!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Actually I did, it was going to take a week to order one so my son and I built one instead!
> 
> Bump:
> 
> Thank you. I have bumped it up now to an almost steady flow, the drop checker is now green and my pH has dropped about 1/2 point so far. I didn't want to open it up too much. Also, I have been playing around with my DIY reactor and I think I am going to* throw some plastic bio-balls in the chamber to help with the diffusion.*


That's exactly what I did. Combined with dialing in the correct flow rate, you should get full diffusion of the CO2. Not sure how much you can restrict those canister pumps without stressing them too much, though.


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Actually I did, it was going to take a week to order one so my son and I built one instead!


Ah, got it. I just purchased mine. I was fearful that it didn't work out for you (and therefore wouldn't for me).

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Matt69 said:


> How do you like the seneye,
> Also does it have to be connected to a pc or the WiFi interface all the time or can you just connect it like say on the weekend and get a report.
> How accurate is the par reading for led lights.


Hi Matt - 

I love the seneye as I am a numbers guy in general. I am currently writing some python code to suck in all of the seneye data (via their API) into an influx database and then into Grafana. I love home automation, pool automation and now (hopefully) tank automation and I write all of my data to influx and view it via Grafana. Seneye has an API that allows me to grab all of my data in json format then I can do what I like with it. 




























As far as how accurate the PAR readings are, others say they are pretty good. I got the Seneye reef kit with web server so it does PAR, O2, PH, Ammonia, NH4, Temperature, leak detection and low water level and alerts for all of them.

Bump:


pauld738 said:


> Ah, got it. I just purchased mine. I was fearful that it didn't work out for you (and therefore wouldn't for me).
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Nope, just that it was going to take a week or so to get to me and I really wanted to get started with my CO2, plus the side benefit of spending extra time with our youngest son was a ++!

Please let me know how it works out for you, it looked really nice.

Bump:


TheUnseenHand said:


> That's exactly what I did. Combined with dialing in the correct flow rate, you should get full diffusion of the CO2. Not sure how much you can restrict those canister pumps without stressing them too much, though.


I have a bypass on mine as well so hopefully, I won't stress the canister out too much, but just in case I do have a leak detector sitting right next to it just in case!!


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## Patriot (Dec 22, 2010)

Nice with the reactor. I might have to get a smaller filter for my reactor. I tried making a cerges reactor for the Fx6 but it reduced the flow too much for my liking.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Patriot said:


> Nice with the reactor. I might have to get a smaller filter for my reactor. I tried making a cerges reactor for the Fx6 but it reduced the flow too much for my liking.


Thanks. I am still getting some undissolved CO2 into my tank even with my bypass all the way open and flow through the reactor slowed way down. Because I used the clear tubing (which limited my reactor size) I am having trouble getting bio-balls to fit into the reactor so I am now onto design number two of my DIY reactor. Stay tuned for pictures but basically I am upsizing my reactor to 3". After reading a lot about reactors I think I went too small. I am also adding unions so that it is much more easily taken apart and put together. Even though it is on the output size of my Flugal 406, it will still need to have the bio-ball media cleaned from time-to-time and in my current design, it was a big PITA to get apart. So I spent ~$25 on my first one, I think it will be closer to $50 or so on my second one, I will see once all the parts are in...

By the way, I was USMC from '86 to '91.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

OK so another update. thank you everyone for your advice, I have a lot to learn and I am hopefully heading in the right direction. 

So I did another water change today. I started out by hitting up home depot for my replacement water transfer system suggested by @lamyers3!

Of course, I had to calibrate it in 5-gallon increments so that I knew exactly home much water to make:



















Once I had that set up I made 35 gallons of RODI water and let it sit all night warming up and getting ready to put in the tank.

I did a really good substrate vacuum today (had not done one yet) and it was a total pain with all the plants, but I got it done. I am waiting for the tank to clear up a little bit and then I am going to test my water again and post the results. I didn't do a full test right before the water change, but I did yesterday (results posted up further) but here were the easy ones to do:

EC = 900 us
TDS = 402 ppm
NH3 = .006 (Seneye)
PH = 6.7
370 LUX
12 PAR
4900 Kelvin
80F Water Temp

I did check my TDS and EC and there was a lot of improvement in the right direction:


TDS = 250 ppm
EC = 500 us

I'm pretty sure I have a bit to go yet, but as I said, it looks like I am moving in the right direction at least!










_Refilling_









_After the fill, still a lot in the water...._


The other thing that I did was to set up my PPS-Pro dosing system today. My wife is going to make me a stand for the right side of the tank to hide the CO2 and to put all of the dosing stuff, but for right now I just put it under the tank itself.









_Calibrating the dosing pumps_









_Dosing pumps installed, programmed and primed..._


I am hoping that the vac I did and the water changes are going to really make a lot of difference. We also added a bunch more inexpensive fish to increase the bioload in the tank. I am not really sure how many fish you can have in a tank, but it is starting to look nice without looking crowded.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

MD500_Pilot said:


> I started out by hitting up home depot for my replacement water transfer system suggested by @lamyers3!
> 
> I did check my TDS and EC and there was a lot of improvement in the right direction:
> TDS = 250 ppm
> ...


Brute cans and wheels don't come cheap, not my favorite purchases!
Out of necessity I have them too.

I would say one more WC should put you on target, maybe not even 50% next time.

Don't keep a lot of phish on my end, at a glance I have to look really hard to find my phish unless it is feeding time.

One Question:
Ex-reefer I thought you said, do you measure ORP?
If so have you tracked this @ all?


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Brute cans and wheels don't come cheap, not my favorite purchases!
> Out of necessity I have them too.
> 
> I would say one more WC should put you on target, maybe not even 50% next time.
> ...


I did in my reef tank but not on my Fresh Water tank. The Seneye does measure (or at least calculate) Dissolved Oxygen Potential but not the same ar ORP.


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

Been looking at doser's myself (seems I'm just a month or so behind you :grin2: ).

Did you mention what doser you are using? I can't tell in the pics. Super interested to hear what you think of them in a few weeks!

And that Grafana dashboard is slick!


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

pauld738 said:


> Been looking at doser's myself (seems I'm just a month or so behind you :grin2: ).
> 
> Did you mention what doser you are using? I can't tell in the pics. Super interested to hear what you think of them in a few weeks!
> 
> And that Grafana dashboard is slick!


It looks like a Jebao DP-4. I use the same one on my tank. It has worked fine to this point. I've heard some bad stories about older models in my reef tank days, but this one seems fine 9 or so months in. Lack of wireless connectivity is a bit annoying, but for the price, it's hard to complain. Now if you want a Cadillac:

https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/usa/product/ghl-doser-2-1-sa-4-pumps-black-usacnd/

Bump:


MD500_Pilot said:


> Thanks. I am still getting some undissolved CO2 into my tank even with my bypass all the way open and flow through the reactor slowed way down. Because I used the clear tubing (which limited my reactor size) I am having trouble getting bio-balls to fit into the reactor so I am now onto design number two of my DIY reactor. Stay tuned for pictures but basically I am upsizing my reactor to 3". After reading a lot about reactors I think I went too small. I am also adding unions so that it is much more easily taken apart and put together. Even though it is on the output size of my Flugal 406, it will still need to have the bio-ball media cleaned from time-to-time and in my current design, it was a big PITA to get apart. So I spent ~$25 on my first one, I think it will be closer to $50 or so on my second one, I will see once all the parts are in...
> 
> By the way, I was USMC from '86 to '91.


I believe these are the bioballs I got as my reactor is quite small as well:

https://www.amazon.com/okdeals-Filter-Biological-Sponge-Aquarium/dp/B07KSSRGLK/ref=sr_1_51?keywords=aquarium+bio+balls+small&qid=1578369665&sr=8-51

They are very small and work quite well. Easily cleaned too. Just FYI.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> It looks like a Jebao DP-4. I use the same one on my tank. It has worked fine to this point. I've heard some bad stories about older models in my reef tank days, but this one seems fine 9 or so months in. Lack of wireless connectivity is a bit annoying, but for the price, it's hard to complain. Now if you want a Cadillac:
> 
> https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/usa/product/ghl-doser-2-1-sa-4-pumps-black-usacnd/
> 
> ...



Yes, you are correct, I am using the Jebao DP-4. Had decent reviews and for $60 you can't beat it!

Thanks for the link to the bio-balls, I ordered some of them as well. I am rebuilding my reactor with a similar (but slightly different) design (including unions for ease of cleaning) and these will do nicely in the reactor chamber. I do a lot of programming and DIY Raspberry Pi, Arduino things around the house and my kids want me to design a pulsing red and blue led in the chamber and put a radiation symbol on it as well!


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

TheUnseenHand said:


> It looks like a Jebao DP-4. I use the same one on my tank. It has worked fine to this point. I've heard some bad stories about older models in my reef tank days, but this one seems fine 9 or so months in. Lack of wireless connectivity is a bit annoying, but for the price, it's hard to complain. Now if you want a Cadillac:
> 
> https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/usa/product/ghl-doser-2-1-sa-4-pumps-black-usacnd/


What?! Spend insane amounts of money on aquarium tech? I'm in!

And I was just looking at the lowly Kamoer Bluetooth model. :laugh2:



> Yes, you are correct, I am using the Jebao DP-4. Had decent reviews and for $60 you can't beat it!


Thanks! 



> ..kids want me to design a pulsing red and blue led in the chamber and put a radiation symbol on it as well!


Just like a computer... Gotta have RGB under the tank, lol!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Good Morning Everyone - 

Well, I ran into my first problem with my automatic dosing this morning. I went to check on the system and noticed that my #2 TE tank was up by 200ml. I filled them to 1000ml each and primed them, leaving the ends of the dosing hoses in the water. It looks like my #2 pump allowed water to siphon back into the tank to the tune of 200ml overnight. The #1 pump was exactly where I left it, but #2 looks like it is not holding.

I took off the intake to the #2 dosing pump and sure enough, there was a steady drip of water from the tank back into my collection container. I did the same on my #1 and it was fine. So I switched off my #2 and moved it to the #3 pump and primed it, then watched to make sure it did not do the same thing. I also removed the hoses from the tank water and left them out of the water by about 1". This way if I have the same problem again I will just lose prime as opposed to refilling (and messing up) my holding tanks. 

The dosing pump came with an extra pump head so I think I will change that out and see if it does the same thing.

I had read good reviews on this pump so I am a bit disappointed that this happened. Does anyone else run that pump and if so, did you see these same issues?

Thanks


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Good Morning Everyone -
> 
> Well, I ran into my first problem with my automatic dosing this morning. I went to check on the system and noticed that my #2 TE tank was up by 200ml. I filled them to 1000ml each and primed them, leaving the ends of the dosing hoses in the water. It looks like my #2 pump allowed water to siphon back into the tank to the tune of 200ml overnight. The #1 pump was exactly where I left it, but #2 looks like it is not holding.
> 
> ...


Are you running and check valves on this setup? Not sure if you are supposed to or not. I am looking into the same pump right now, so trying to learn as much as I can. Thanks for sharing this experience. 

I would think either way, keeping it out of the water would be best, right?


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Grobbins48 said:


> Are you running and check valves on this setup? Not sure if you are supposed to or not. I am looking into the same pump right now, so trying to learn as much as I can. Thanks for sharing this experience.
> 
> I would think either way, keeping it out of the water would be best, right?


Well, I am not running check valves on it, but maybe I am supposed to be doing that. Before I purchased this I did some research and nowhere in the videos did see check valves. Also, my #1 pump had no problem at all, it was only the #2 one. I moved my #2 tank to the #3 pump and the #3 pump did not leak down, so I am assuming that #1 & 3 are (hopefully) working as they should and I just need to replace the #2 pump. 

I am not really sure about keeping it out of the water but I will now that I realize that a defective pump can cause a siphon effect!


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

The problem is the Jebao pump is the rollers on the pump heads don’t pinch the pump line closed enough to seal the line and if stoped at the wrong spot will cause a back siphon. So make sure you line into the tank is above the water level.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

EdWiser said:


> The problem is the Jebao pump is the rollers on the pump heads don’t pinch the pump line closed enough to seal the line and if stoped at the wrong spot will cause a back siphon. So make sure you line into the tank is above the water level.


I know that is what happened but I don't think it is supposed to work that way. Otherwise, with the line out of the water, it will lose prime and when the dose happens you will not get the correct dosage (or any at all) since it now has to fill the line back up. I guess there is a reason they are only $60!


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

You want the line out of the water that the line is depositing the fluid into. 
It’s ok if the line is in the bottom of the container that the pump is drawing the liquid from that it is dosing. I have 18 dosing pumps.  for my coral systems.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Good Evening Everyone - 

I wanted to make another update on our 75 Gallon Planted tank. My son and I decided to redesign and rebuild our CO2 reactor. After doing more reading we redesigned it to be much larger than before. We used 3" PVC as opposed to 15" tubing for the reactor chamber and made some other changes including adding unions it can be taken apart and cleaned, bioballs added and removed, etc. Also went away from just drilling a hole in the side of the pvc and sticking in the CO2 hose and went with a threaded barb fitting but I used some hard plastic tubing siliconed into the fitting so that I get the same effect of having the CO2 injected into the center of the water stream.

We are soaking it right now to get rid of any lingering glue smells and will be swapping out the unit once I get back from my next fight rotation, hopefully over the coming weekend. Here are the build pictures!










We started with two 3" Sanitary tees. The bottom one gets a flat plug glued into it and the top one (below) gets a plug with a spigot for the water inlet.









Top water inlet.










In the bottom tee I put in a little grate so that I can add bioballs without then dropping all the way into the elbow.










I used a small piece of the schedule 40 clear pipe to glue in the 3" union and a reducer to 1" for the water bypass valve.










Union has been installed.









We glued in the remaining piece of the clear PVC and glued on the top tee.









Next, we added the bypass valve with union.









We then drilled out the hole for the CO2 barb and threaded it. The nice thing about doing it this way is if we don't like where it is located we can always screw in a plug and relocate the CO2 inlet.









Finishing up with the assembly.









Here it is filled with bioballs.









Plastic tube that I am going to use to extend into the water flow.









The plastic tube sits in the brass inlet barb.









The tube is siliconed into the barb and allowed to dry.


So the long clear VC is about 24" which is what people seemed to think was a good length for the reactor. Also increasing the diameter to 3" is supposed to help a great deal as well. I guess I will find out when I get it installed and we see how this one works compared to my first one we built.

I am excited to see how well it works but I will have to wait until this weekend to install it. I want it to air out first.


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

Awesome build! Can't wait to see how it does as well.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Water Readings from 1/13/2020*
Tank Water
kH - 3
gH - 7
PO4 - 11
pH - 6.6
Nitrate - 8ppm
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - 0
EC - 616 µS
TDS - 308 ppm


Doing another water change tonight along with a vacuum. I am about 1 week into PPS-Pro dosing. I have also added a UV light.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

pauld738 said:


> Awesome build! Can't wait to see how it does as well.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Thanks! Hopefully, it does the trick.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*I think this is proof it worked....*

Sorry, everyone, it has been a while since my last post. My flying schedule has been brutal but I wanted to provide an update.

OK, as everyone knows I have been having issues with my tank and more specifically my plants not growing, in fact not even not growing, but dying off slowly. So I took some advice from here and added another light, added a CO2 DIY reactor and implemented an automated dosing system using the PPS-Pro method of dosing. 

I am also doing about a 40% water change every 7 to 10 days with 100% RODI water. And one last thing I installed was a UV light.

Here was the tank *before* all of this:










And here is the tank yesterday:






































I mean the difference in just two weeks is just *amazing*. However, as you can see from the pictures, I now also have an algae problem, one I had thought I had taken care of a while back. I thought the combination of a LOT of plants and the UV light would take care of the algae. I had read that with a lot of plants, the algae ends up with no food to eat and it dies off. 

So I guess my next question is: what the heck do I do to get rid of the algae. Last time I simply blacked the tank out for three days and it was all gone, but it keeps coming back.

I am going to do another water change today or tomorrow and I will post before and after numbers once I do that.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I would try to curb this with Algaefix if possible.
I can't really zoom in on it though to tell what it is.


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## celticfrog42 (Oct 22, 2019)

Super interesting journal! As I am not a high-tech person, I'm just along for the ride (and the pictures). Very cool stuff in here.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Congrats on turning your tank around so quickly--it looks great. And yes, most tanks have algae. We have to remember that the aquatic environments most of our fish come from also have algae--so it's not a bad thing. It's just that we have expectations that our tanks be picture perfect and not contain anything we didn't put there. Think dandelions in a manicured lawn: they're an indication of healthy soil, provide pollen for bees, food for other insects, and are healthy for us to eat. And can make some darn good wine. Yet we call them weeds

That said, most of us in this hobby tend to be Type A and want things to look perfect. So here are some suggestions, in no particular order:

Shorten the photo period, and or lower the intensity of lighting (lowering it to ≈4hrs/day for awhile worked for me)
Tweak your fertilizers (You'll get LOTS of advice on that here)
Try dosing Excel
Get some algae eaters: otos, snails, shrimp, etc
Others will likely have more suggestions

If you have the patience (and you should in this hobby) it's much better to try things one at a time so you know what worked. Lots of experience, and lots of advice on here to draw from. Just remember that what works for one person may not work in your tank, so just keep trying til you find what works. And often as new tanks mature, the plants settle in, etc algae problems can work themselves out as you achieve that elusive balance.


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## Silly_Guppys (Jan 25, 2020)

Really have enjoyed this journal!

Reminds me of a old bow front, intense growth then a minor platou in production and boom algae..

I feel it! 

More plant growth less algae, Propagating at the right time is key i believe. 

Anyways it looks like good algae but not sure, might choke out the stem plants at best.

Ever think about adding new plants or swapping ones out for another? 

I'd be tempted to add a cheap fast grower like pennywort for balance.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

So you added more light, and now plants are growing faster, which is good. Also came with some algae, which is not a big surprise. Pretty typical when you add more light until things come into balance.

My guess is the higher light may be increasing demand for CO2/Ferts.

What is the current PAR at the substrate?

Why PPS dosing? Have you seen tanks with your goals that use PPS? 

What is your actual dosing in ppm per week? My guess is you may need more. Dosing any Mg/Ca into RO? What are you using for micros?

What is current pH drop from degassed? 

Just asking all these questions as the more folks know the better they may be able to help you. Also makes it easier to compare to other similar tanks 

The algae along the front substrate looks like it might be BGA. If so, some Chemiclean will clear that up. You don't want that spreading and crawling up your plants. And I'm not a big fan of dosing for algae, but a treatment of Algaefix might not be a bad idea. Just be sure to have plenty of aeration when using either. 

All in all, seeing plants growing is good sign. You are probably not too far off now. And keep in mind maintenance is another big part of the equation. Keep filters clean, keep up on water changes, and remove badly infested leaves and any dead or decaying plant matter.

Looking forward to seeing where it goes from here.


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

Tanks looking good, just keep working on the balance and growing plants


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> So you added more light, and now plants are growing faster, which is good. Also came with some algae, which is not a big surprise. Pretty typical when you add more light until things come into balance.
> 
> My guess is the higher light may be increasing demand for CO2/Ferts.
> 
> ...


I am dosing per the PPS-Pro dosing since my plants almost died on me. Since starting that they are growing great, now the algae. I do not add anything to my RODI water per the instructions from the PPS-Pro dosing instructions. As far as my actual dosing, I would have to double check but I have an automatic dosing pump and set it exactly as the instruction said for the PPS-Pro. 

My drop checker is green, not blue or yellow, but a good green. 


Here is a closeup of the algae:










and










Do you think dosing with either (or both) of Chemiclean / Algaefix would fix the issue give a better look at the algae or should I just blackout the tank for a few days?


Thanks


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## rzn7z7 (Aug 17, 2013)

PPS-Pro does recommend you reconstitute your RO water which you can read about here...

https://sites.google.com/site/aquaticplantfertilizer/home/ro-reverse-osmosis

....and here

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1162250-remineralize-ro-water-question.html


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> I do not add anything to my RODI water per the instructions from the PPS-Pro dosing instructions. As far as my actual dosing, I would have to double check but I have an automatic dosing pump and set it exactly as the instruction said for the PPS-Pro.
> 
> My drop checker is green, not blue or yellow, but a good green.


The problem is very few know what PPS-pro instructions are, and aren't going to take the time to look it up. I find it hard to believe they don't recommend adding Ca/Mg to RO water. 

And personally I haven't seen many tanks that dose PPS-pro that I would want to emulate. I would rely more on what you see happening in the tank than PPS-pro instructions. It could very well be your plants need more ferts, but again I can't really even tell what you are dosing now. Keep in mind that too little ferts (starving plants) is usually worse than too many as far as algae goes.

In general, the universal language of planted tanks is ppm, so it's better to start thinking in those terms. If you would like to see the way many report their dosing and tank parameters, I have a link to my tank parameters in my signature below. 

And I would not recommend relying on a drop checker to adjust CO2 dosing. The best method is using a calibrated probe to measure pH drop from degassed value. CO2 levels are too critical to be guessing.


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## 25cube2019 (Jan 21, 2019)

MD500_Pilot said:


> I do not add anything to my RODI water


I kept reading from the begin and you said the you are doing water change with 100% RO/DI water and Gregg finally asked the question that I was going to. There are absolutely no minerals for your water change and this cant be right. I use RO?DI but added Seachem Equilibrium and Baking Soda


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> The problem is very few know what PPS-pro instructions are, and aren't going to take the time to look it up. I find it hard to believe they don't recommend adding Ca/Mg to RO water.
> 
> And personally I haven't seen many tanks that dose PPS-pro that I would want to emulate. I would rely more on what you see happening in the tank than PPS-pro instructions. It could very well be your plants need more ferts, but again I can't really even tell what you are dosing now. Keep in mind that too little ferts (starving plants) is usually worse than too many as far as algae goes.
> 
> ...


 @Greggz - Thank you for the great information. Looks like I got my wires crossed on the RODI with another forum about using RODI vs not using RODI. Frankly, there is no clear consensus on it either way, either using RODI or not using it and treating tap water. 

I did read up on PPS Pro and a bunch of other posts here and other forums. From what I read, it is a recommended system and while some may not like it, it did save all of my plants and did what I wanted it to do - make my plants grow really well. I implemented PPS by doing exactly as you suggested above - watching what was going on in my tank and what was happening was that all my plants were dying. 

I am a planted beginner and while more seasoned aquarists may prefer a different method of dosing, this one was simple enough for me to get in place and manage with my schedule and frankly, it appears to be doing a fantastic job of bringing my plants back to life. I think I am going to actually need to turn the dosing down based on the growth I am seeing, but I am going to let it run for a month or so before making any other changes to the dosing. 

My goal, of course, is to continue to read and learn and make changes based on what I learn, like maybe I should be adding something to my RODI water before adding it to my tank during water changes. Now I get to learn what CA/MG is and how to add it to my RODI water if it is needed. 

My plants are growing great, my fish are not dying but I do have algae so apparently my water is not so far off I'm killing things. It's a start, at least for me.


As far as dosing, I have a Macro bottle and a Micro bottle. Here is what is in them:

*MACROS*
29 grams of K2SO4
33 grams of KNO3
3 grams of KH2PO4
20 grams of MgSO4

*MICROS*
29 Grams dry Trace Element Mix (includes CSM+B)

Both are mixed with 500ml of RODI water and dosed daily at 14ml of Macros and 7ml of Micros per the instructions for a high light tank. With a 50% water change weekly (which I am doing), this should limit (per PPS) my water column nutrients levels to 28 ppm NO3, 2.8 ppm PO4, 36 ppm K, 2.8 ppm Mg, 1.4 ppm Fe(TE). Now I am not 100% certain what all of those numbers mean, but I do use the recommended test kit and all of the readings seem to be in the normal range except I think PO4 is a little high.

On my CO2, I am using the Seneye Reef tracking and monitoring system with the drop checker as a backup to that. In other posts, people recommend a 1 point drop on pH. So far, the CO2 seems just about right both on the drop checker and my Seneye calibrated pH monitor for that swing. I have not yet installed my new CO2 reactor as my schedule has been brutal, but I am hoping to get to that this weekend. 

Here are my water readings from before the last water change:

kH - 2
gH - 7
PO4 - 9
pH - 6.4
Nitrate - 20
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - 0
EC - 544 µS
TDS - 272 ppm


I think I am going to try and blackout the tank for a couple of days, that seems to be the preferred method of killing BGA algae as opposed to dumping a bunch more chemicals into the tank. I am guessing if I am going to black out the tank, I should shut down my CO2 since, without light, no photosynthesis will be taking place.

I'll let everyone know how it turns out!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> With a 50% water change weekly (which I am doing), this should limit (per PPS) my water column nutrients levels to* 28 ppm NO3, 2.8 ppm PO4, 36 ppm K, 2.8 ppm Mg, 1.4 ppm Fe(TE)*. Now I am not 100% certain what all of those numbers mean,


This is exactly the information that helps.

In common terms here your dosing would be weekly N:K at 14:1.4:18, Mg at 1.4 ppm, and 0.7 ppm Fe from micros (at 50% water change).

As it turns not much different than many here, except for pretty low PO4, Mg and Ca.

For instance, my numbers right now would be N:K 15:7:18, Ca 34 ppm, Mg 17 ppm, and 0.525 ppm Fe from micros. 

Putting your dosing in these terms will really help others understand your tank and compare it to others.




MD500_Pilot said:


> On my CO2, I am using the Seneye Reef tracking and monitoring system with the drop checker as a backup to that. In other posts, people recommend a 1 point drop on pH.


Excellent you have a calibrated probe. So have you tested your degassed value?

A 1.0 drop is often referred to, but you will find many here are more like 1.2 to 1.4 drop. Just watch the fish as you adjust. My personal drop is 1.35 from fully degassed, and fish are happy and healthy. Sometimes just a small bump in CO2 can make a significant change with happier healthier plants. 

In the end, it's all about fine tuning each aspect of the planted tank. So getting light level, fert dosing, CO2 pH drop......and maintenance all dialed in. 

Sounds like you are well on your way. Looking forward to seeing where things go from here.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> This is exactly the information that helps.
> 
> In common terms here your dosing would be weekly N:K at 14:1.4:18, Mg at 1.4 ppm, and 0.7 ppm Fe from micros (at 50% water change).
> 
> ...


So when you say fully degassed, is this the pH of the water out of my RODI system after it has set overnight and before I put it in the tank? If so, I think it was right at 7 when I checked.

Also, I am pretty confused. Should I be dosing or adding minerals to my RODI water before putting it in my tank? I have read some posts that say don't bother and others that say you really need to, but I have never adjusted my RODI water and I have lost none of my fish (not that that is the only indicator) and my water number seem to look ok both before and after a change.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> So when you say fully degassed, is this the pH of the water out of my RODI system after it has set overnight and before I put it in the tank? If so, I think it was right at 7 when I checked.


Yes, even better to run an air stone in it overnight. Sometimes takes several days to fully degas if just left out in a cup. At KH 2 would expect pH somewhere around 7.1/7.2 but you are right in the ballpark.

For reference, my degassed pH is 6.85 with KH less than 1. I drop pH to 5.50 via CO2 injection.



MD500_Pilot said:


> Also, I am pretty confused. Should I be dosing or adding minerals to my RODI water before putting it in my tank?


Your RO water has been stripped of everything, including Ca/Mg, which together make up GH. 

So yes you should be dosing CaSO4 and MgSO4 to create some GH. Most remineralize to about 6 to 8 GH. 

Do you have an RO storage tank? If so, dose right into the RO water, as it will dissolve nicely before you use it. If not, can dose directly into tank as well. Either way is fine.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

MD500_Pilot said:


> So when you say fully degassed, is this the pH of the water out of my RODI system after it has set overnight and before I put it in the tank? If so, I think it was right at 7 when I checked.
> 
> Also, I am pretty confused. Should I be dosing or adding minerals to my RODI water before putting it in my tank? I have read some posts that say don't bother and others that say you really need to, but I have never adjusted my RODI water and I have lost none of my fish (not that that is the only indicator) and my water number seem to look ok both before and after a change.





Greggz said:


> Yes, even better to run an air stone in it overnight. Sometimes takes several days to fully degas if just left out in a cup. At KH 2 would expect pH somewhere around 7.1/7.2 but you are right in the ballpark.
> 
> For reference, my degassed pH is 6.85 with KH less than 1. I drop pH to 5.50 via CO2 injection.
> 
> ...


Because RODI does not have any carbonates or minerals, pH is not reliable. It will swing with atmospheric gas changes. Those of us running RODI with a non-buffered substrate add a little bit of carbonate to raise KH. I add enough NaHCO3(Baking Soda, aka sodium bicarbonate) to raise my dKH to 1. Many of the plants we keep in our aquariums prefer softer water, so keeping KH low is a good idea! As Gregg has mentioned, you'll also need to add back Ca and Mg. The target ratio can range, I'm doing 2.5:1 currently, I think Gregg is doing 2:1, others do 3:1, 4:1. Basically, I'd try to stay somewhere in between 2:1 and 3:1 Ca:Mg. Rotalabutterfly.com has a nice nutrient calculator that can help you figure out your ppm's and the GH that's being added, we can also help you. 

After you remineralize KH and GH and have it well mixed and hit it with an air stone overnight like previously mentioned, that's when I'd check your degassed pH.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

mgeorges said:


> Because RODI does not have any carbonates or minerals, pH is not reliable. It will swing with atmospheric gas changes. Those of us running RODI with a non-buffered substrate add a little bit of carbonate to raise KH. I add enough NaHCO3(Baking Soda, aka sodium bicarbonate) to raise my dKH to 1. Many of the plants we keep in our aquariums prefer softer water, so keeping KH low is a good idea! As Gregg has mentioned, you'll also need to add back Ca and Mg. The target ratio can range, I'm doing 2.5:1 currently, I think Gregg is doing 2:1, others do 3:1, 4:1. Basically, I'd try to stay somewhere in between 2:1 and 3:1 Ca:Mg. Rotalabutterfly.com has a nice nutrient calculator that can help you figure out your ppm's and the GH that's being added, we can also help you.
> 
> After you remineralize KH and GH and have it well mixed and hit it with an air stone overnight like previously mentioned, that's when I'd check your degassed pH.


OK, I think I got a better feel now. Another question. I am running CaribSea Eco-Complete as a substrate. Is this a buffered or non-buffered substrate and would that make a difference with what I do with my RODI water before putting it into the tank?

I make up my water as I need it, but I put it into a 50-gallon trash can so I can easily add the minerals and put in an airstone overnight. I will do this before my next water change and report back.

Thanks Everyone for the support.


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## fortyneck (Jan 24, 2020)

Super cool read! Nice thread! Nice job with the DIY projects.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Eco-complete is a non buffering substrate.
Add GH & KH to your liking!

What are your targets???


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Another quick update everyone. I am starting on day 3 of my tank blackout and I took a look this morning to see how the tank was doing. Still have some BGA so I will leave it blacked out, but I am going to take the time to do a water change today and check my water levels. 

Amazingly my plants are growing like weeds:



















I am absolutely amazed at the difference a couple of weeks can make. This is dosing per the PPS-Pro dosing schedule. As I said, I still have some BGA so I am going to continue to blackout the tank for a few more days until all of that is gone. 

So now on to remineralizing my RODI water. I was going to use the PPS-Pro suggested method of remineralization until I realized that I do not have all the necessary minerals, but I do have Seachem Equilibrium which is supposed to do the same thing. I am ordering what I need from Nilocg to do it the PPS-Pro way but I was wondering until then should I go ahead and use the Equilibrium and dose to about 3 dGH? 

As people may recall, I have not been dosing my RODI water at all on my 40 to 50% water changes (now being done once-per-week) and other than algae I don't seem to have any issues, but I realize now I should be remineralizing thanks to all the good info here. I just want to make sure that I am not going to screw up my tank by using Equilibrium.

Thanks!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Eco-complete is a non buffering substrate.
> Add GH & KH to your liking!
> 
> What are your targets???


From what I have been reading, I think 3 dGH and I have no idea on dKH!


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Most target 3-6 dGH and 1dKH should be fine.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Most target 3-6 dGH and 1dKH should be fine.


So would using Seatrace Equilibrium be OK to use to dose the RODI water?


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Equilibrium would be fine but it does add some Fe.

If your tank is @ 0dGH I would bring up slowly to 3 dGH, say over the course of a week.
Don't want to damage the phish or shock them too quickly.


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

I use Equilibrium and target 6dGH (I also target 1dKH), upped recently from 4dGH. It's slight but it does appear that the plants are doing better to my heavily biased eye. :laugh2:

I'll probably mix my own when my bottle of Equilibrium runs out.


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## mboley (Jan 26, 2018)

Greggz said:


> MD500_Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > So when you say fully degassed, is this the pH of the water out of my RODI system after it has set overnight and before I put it in the tank? If so, I think it was right at 7 when I checked.
> ...


Alright, I'm confused. Since aquarium is getting the CO2 injection and the Ph of the water in the aquarium is what needs to drop +- 1.2 shouldn't that be the water measured for the degassed Ph, versus the water change water?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

mboley said:


> Alright, I'm confused. Since aquarium is getting the CO2 injection and the Ph of the water in the aquarium is what needs to drop +- 1.2 shouldn't that be the water measured for the degassed Ph, versus the water change water?


Well that depends.

If you have something in the tank that is changing KH, then test the aquarium water. But that would have to be something like an active substrate which drops KH, or limestone rocks that raises KH. 

What is your substrate?

But to be sure, I would test both, just make sure they are fully degassed (air stone is best or two days sitting out). In most cases, fully degassed tank pH and tap pH should be the same, unless as I said if something is changing it in the tank (unlikely).


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

OK, so here are all of my numbers from today:

*RODI Water*
Sat in the container for 48 hours, then airstone for 24 hours - Heated to 80 degrees
kH - 1
gH - 1
PO4 - 0
pH - 6.8
Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - 0
EC - 4 µS
TDS - 2 ppm

Dosed water with 32g Equilibrium - retested dGH = 4

*Tank Water - Pre Water Change*
kH - 2
gH - 5
PO4 - 7
pH - 7.0
Nitrate - 10
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - 0
EC - 440 µS
TDS - 217 ppm


I'll give the water time to filter a bit and retest in a day or two to see where it ends up. 











Also, does anyone know what this stuff is and what I should do about it (if anything)? It's starting to get all over everything:


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Also, does anyone know what this stuff is and what I should do about it (if anything)? It's starting to get all over everything:


BBA, if not on plants not a huge worry, give it some time.


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

MD500_Pilot said:


> So would using Seatrace Equilibrium be OK to use to dose the RODI water?




Equilibrium is good stuff so is the GH booster from Nilloc , both will work. 
One of the theory with BBA is that they can take advantage of fluctuations in CO2 where as plants will take time to adapt to your CO2 levels.
The tank is looking good 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

MD500_Pilot said:


> OK, so here are all of my numbers from today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If you can pull the hard scape out of the water and treat with H2O2 or excell you can kill the BBA, you can also treat in the tank but take a small risk killing livestock if overdosed. 
If you can kill it before it affects your plants you will be ahead. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Thanks everyone for the advice on the BBA. I have blacked out the tank and shut down my CO2 as a result so maybe when I crank back up my CO2 the BBA will disappear? It is really starting to get on everything including my plants. Not sure what I should start doing first to get control of it now before it takes over the entire tank.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Do you have access to a low yield nuke? Wow. Looks like that BBA is out of control. 

Do you have another tank you place your fish and treated plants? If so, I would suggest moving them to another tank and just breaking that tank down, treating it and then figuring out what caused it.

Without finding the source of your issue, history will repeat itself. For me, back in the early days (according to my kids, when Dinosaurs ruled the earth) my issue was high phosphate levels from the water source (I was using the local tap water), high bioload and not enough water changes. 

I've heard everything from poor water quality, high organics, high phosphates, inconsistent CO2 but after reading this journal we can rule out most of these. 

Sorry if the question was asked before, how often do you change the water and what is your stocking levels like? (Loads of fish or "is there fish in there?")

One thing I am curious about, the light spectrum. I see a lot of "purplish" hues on a few tanks here recently. Latest trend? I've been always under the assumption these are quite useless for the spectrum plants need and actually fueled algae...

Gary


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Crazygar said:


> Do you have access to a low yield nuke? Wow. Looks like that BBA is out of control.
> 
> Do you have another tank you place your fish and treated plants? If so, I would suggest moving them to another tank and just breaking that tank down, treating it and then figuring out what caused it.
> 
> ...


Hi Gary - 

I do a 50% water change weekly with RODI water. Until this last water change, I had not been remineralizing my RODI water, just heating it up and adding it back to the tank. My phosphates tend to run a little bit high I think (7 right before my last water change). I do not have another tank to move things into to be able to break everything down and start fresh. 

For lighting, I am running two of the Fluval Plant Spectrum Bluetooth Freshwater Light LED (Version 3.0) 6,500K and run them both based on sunrise-to-sunset here in Phoenix. As far as fish, I think I have about 20 small fish in the tank right now. I would like to get more, but until things settle down I don't want to risk losing them. So far, we have only lost a few fish over the life of the tank (maybe 6 or 8 months now total).


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

That might be a long photoperiod without a siesta or two.


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## Squisher (Nov 18, 2019)

I was wondering that too, just how many hrs are the lights running?

Also wondering if maybe you should give ei dosing a try instead of pps. Thinking that maybe you are leaving something deficient by leaner dosing that is swaying the favour to the bba? Maybe upping your water change frequency could help as well to get the upper hand?

Was going to mention if you are battling it with h2o2 as I have with my own tank, to be cognizant of the possibility of harming beneficial bacteria and causing a mini cycle with ammonia and nitrite spikes. I didn't have a ton of bba myself and so far it seems in the short term I am winning the battle by having gotten my co2 dialled in. I also dose ei method. 

I'm very new to planted tanks myself but not aquariums in general. So certainly defer to any advice you get from seasoned experts. Just spitballing some thoughts that come to mind. Best of luck with it.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

I would adjust the photoperiod. Sunrise to Sunset anywhere, with the lighting you are putting into that tank is going to cause one form of algae or another. 

That's a whopping 11 hours of light pumping into that tank. I would reduce the photoperiod to 8hrs. That would be an incredibly good idea.

Gary


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

I like siestas for two reasons, one of which doesn't really apply to your CO2 setup.

First, I get more time to enjoy my tank when I am actually home! The lights come on at 07:00, ramp and then down to off at 11:00, then back on at 12:00, etc. So I get to see my tank right before I leave for work, and then I also get to enjoy it at night before bedtime, without giving my plants too much light.

The other benefit, in my low-tech dirt tank, is that I get a little bit of CO2 from the soil and decomposition, and I get a mini CO2 reset on each siesta. It is not much compared to the full night off, but I can see it happening with my Apex probes.

Here is the dual siesta for my nano tanks:


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

How old is this tank? As others have mentioned the BBA is looking bad, you need to make adjustments mostly in light, but also the organic load in the tank. Any damaged, dying leaves, fish waste/food will add to this load and you have less wiggle room for light. 

In addition to the light and water changes, remove any dying damaged leaves when you see them, I would immediately stuff your filter with Purigen and/or carbon. These will remove more waste before ammonia/toxins are released that fuels algae growth. Your want to make sure your plants have what they need via dosing not decomposition of waste.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I think the whole PO4 causes algae has been debunked by most leaders in the field as well the anecdotal evidence of thousands of tanks that have excess PO4 (pretty much any tank certainly EI-dosed) and they don't all have algae. BBA can be found in a wide range of tanks from non-planted with tiny PO4 Levels to tanks fully loaded with plants.

What these tanks all have in common is light and organic waste. Organic waste breaks down and releases ammonia. When the ammonia isn't processed quickly enough by either plant mass and/or bio-filter, algae is born. It's the fundamental reason tanks full of healthy plants have less algae issues if compared to another tank that doesn't have the plant mass, but everything else is the same.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Agree with @Asteroid above.

PO4 is not your problem and is not causing BBA or other algae. Many dose to higher levels on purpose. Plants like PO4, and there is not a planted tank in the world that needs a phosphate reducer. 

But there is something odd with your measured level. Earlier in this thread you noted your dosing and it only equated to 1.4 ppm PO4 weekly. If that is true, there is no way that your levels should ever be much more than 3.00. So either the dosing you listed is off? Auto dosing is off? PO4 test is off? I don't know which but something does not make sense. 

You could always create a test solution and test your test kit...just to rule that out. I would also take some time to learn either the Rotalabutterly or Zorfox calculators so you better understand the solutions you are creating. Thinking in terms of ppm dosing is better than thinking tsp's into solutions. ppm is the universal language here, and it will help others help you.

A couple of other observations. You said you spent several hours cleaning out your filters? How often are you cleaning them? Dirty filters are a prime contributor to BBA. I have three filters and each one gets cleaned every three weeks. It's not so much what's in the pads, it's the gunk that comes out when you empty it. Those organics are in your water column.

You also mentioned you were told not to vacuum substrate? It's probably one of the best things you can do to reduce dissolved organics. And it doesn't have to be a deep clean, but you do want to remove detritus, fish waste, dead or decaying plant matter, etc on a regular basis.

In general, an uber clean tank with low dissolved organics is your best defense against all algae, but in particular BBA.

And like mentioned above 11 hours of light is usually too many. I don't know of too many successful tanks that have any more than 8 hours of light. Many do add very, very low LED lighting for viewing in the evening. The other thing that would be helpful is knowing the PAR you are dealing with? Maybe someone here can help based on the lights you have. Of course the best way is to use a PAR meter (if interested in learning more PM me). 

In the end, a planted tank is a combination of light (PAR/duration), CO2 (accurate optimal peak drop), fertilization, and maintenance. The most successful tanks that I follow have something in common, they take great care to get each one right.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Agree with @Asteroid above.
> 
> PO4 is not your problem and is not causing BBA or other algae. Many dose to higher levels on purpose. Plants like PO4, and there is not a planted tank in the world that needs a phosphate reducer.
> 
> But there is something odd with your measured level. Earlier in this thread you noted your dosing and it only equated to 1.4 ppm PO4 weekly. If that is true, there is no way that your levels should ever be much more than 3.00. So either the dosing you listed is off? Auto dosing is off? PO4 test is off? I don't know which but something does not make sense.


So every since I started with this tank back in June I have had very high PO4 levels, like off my chart levels. I even took water to my LFS and they said the same thing. That was one of the reasons I started to vacuum the substrate was to get my PO4 down to acceptable levels. I think I am heading in the right direction for sure on the PO4. I now vacuum my substrate every water change (once per week). 



> You could always create a test solution and test your test kit...just to rule that out. I would also take some time to learn either the Rotalabutterly or Zorfox calculators so you better understand the solutions you are creating. Thinking in terms of ppm dosing is better than thinking tsp's into solutions. ppm is the universal language here, and it will help others help you.


I did take my water to the local fish store and their readings was very nearly what mine were, although we were using the same test kit from the same company. Also, my readings match what my Seneye is kicking out except for Ammonia. My Seneye says 0.007 and my test kit shos 0. I assume that it is not accurate enough to measure down that low. I have never really seen my Ammonia above about 0.01 either by color testing or with the Seneye. Learning the dosing is on my list of things to do, right now I follow the PPS-Pro to the letter and I know my dosing is accurate since the tank levels exactly match the decrease in levels per the dosing requirements. And since I started the PPS-Pro, my plants have gone from looking like they were all ready to die to growing out of the tank. I purchased a bunch more stuff from Nilocg so that I can create the dosing (both for my RODI water and my plants) myself. Still a lot to learn there for sure... 



> A couple of other observations. You said you spent several hours cleaning out your filters? How often are you cleaning them? Dirty filters are a prime contributor to BBA. I have three filters and each one gets cleaned every three weeks. It's not so much what's in the pads, it's the gunk that comes out when you empty it. Those organics are in your water column.
> 
> You also mentioned you were told not to vacuum substrate? It's probably one of the best things you can do to reduce dissolved organics. And it doesn't have to be a deep clean, but you do want to remove detritus, fish waste, dead or decaying plant matter, etc on a regular basis.
> 
> In general, an uber clean tank with low dissolved organics is your best defense against all algae, but in particular BBA.


So I have been cleaning my filters about every two months or so, and they really don't seem that dirty. It took us a bit of time this time because my son's dog ate our foam out of the filter as we were cleaning them so we had to go get new, but it generally takes us a good two hours to clean both the FX6 and the 406. By the time we disconnect everything, take the filters outside, take them apart, rinse everything off in old tank water, put it all back together, refill them, reconnect them and get them back up and running, yeah its a two-hour job easy.



> And like mentioned above 11 hours of light is usually too many. I don't know of too many successful tanks that have any more than 8 hours of light. Many do add very, very low LED lighting for viewing in the evening. The other thing that would be helpful is knowing the PAR you are dealing with? Maybe someone here can help based on the lights you have. Of course the best way is to use a PAR meter (if interested in learning more PM me).
> 
> In the end, a planted tank is a combination of light (PAR/duration), CO2 (accurate optimal peak drop), fertilization, and maintenance. The most successful tanks that I follow have something in common, they take great care to get each one right.


I have a PAR meter on my Seneye, but of course, it is stuck to the back of the tank. Regardless, here were my readings from today:










I will cut down the amount of light from sunrise to sunset to 8 hours a day and see where that leaves me. I added a second light because according to my PAR meter I was not getting enough light to the bottom of the tank, adding the second light fixed that problem. I have always run the lights sunup to sundown, but I will dial it back to 8 hours for now and see where that leaves us. I do like to run the blue lights at night (moon mode I think they call it) but I think I will do that while we are watching TV and then go totally dark from about 10 PM on until maybe 10 AM the next morning. Then I will run full bright from 10 AM until 6 PM and ramp down to blue from 6 PM until 10 PM and then dark. 

So in addition to making those changes, I also removed all of my rocks and wood today and doused them really well with Hydrogen Peroxide. I am going to let them set out for a few days and dose them every day with the H2O2. Not sure how long it will take to kill the stuff, but a few days without the rocks and wood won't hurt anything.

I then removed any plants with BBA on them and just tossed them in the trash. It was not a lot thankfully, but I spent the time going through the plants and getting what I could see out of there. I tend to try and get any dead plants or stuff floating around out of the tank as soon as I see it. 

And to top all of that off, my son and I also installed Version 2 of our CO2 reactor yesterday and I got just under a 1 pH drop over the course of the day. I will fine-tune the amount of CO2 over the next few days to target a 1 pH drop for now and see where that puts me with my plants. So far the fish could not seem happier, so at least there is that!


----------



## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Sounds like you are heading in the right direction. I believe after these changes you are making you will be pointing in the right direction. The entire thread has been a wonderfully techy read along with watching the build.

How is the water circulation in regards to "quiet/dead spots?" 

Gary


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

All good stuff above and seems to be a good track.

Didn't realize you had the Seneye.

Bring it as close as you can to the middle of the tank right on the substrate (selfie stick works great!). Be aware of any shading and move any plants over that will interfere. Angle it directly up at lights and try to get the highest reading you can. It should be quite a bit higher than on the graph above. It is a good thing to know and can explain a lot of things.

And boy oh boy that is some massive (and well done) CO2 reactor you built there.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1303755-co2-reactor-build-w-pictures-parts-list.html


Crazygar said:


> Sounds like you are heading in the right direction. I believe after these changes you are making you will be pointing in the right direction. The entire thread has been a wonderfully techy read along with watching the build.
> 
> How is the water circulation in regards to "quiet/dead spots?"
> 
> Gary


I have my FX6 return directly in the center of the tank with one vent pointed in each direction. Then I have my 406 return at the far end of the tank along with the UV light that has it's own pump. I don't think I have any dead spots based on this placement. Looking at the water and plant movement, it seems like everything is moving ok.

Bump:


Greggz said:


> All good stuff above and seems to be a good track.
> 
> Didn't realize you had the Seneye.
> 
> ...


Perfect, I will give that a try and see what it comes out as...

Yeah, my son and I really enjoyed building the new reactor. I did a post about it:

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1303755-co2-reactor-build-w-pictures-parts-list.html


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

How happy are you guys with the Seneye? I was thinking of picking one up. I usually just go by Lumens and eyeball plants, but could be fun/beneficial to use. Do you use it for Ammonia and PH as well.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> How happy are you guys with the Seneye? I was thinking of picking one up. I usually just go by Lumens and eyeball plants, but could be fun/beneficial to use. Do you use it for Ammonia and PH as well.


I like my Seneye but I am just now realizing that while it is good for a lot of things, now that I am injecting CO2, it is not as good for pH as the low limit on their pH slides is 6.4. Other than that, when I do tests against it with my test kit, the numbers always match so I am assuming that it is accurate. 

The other thing that I like about it is that they have an API so I wrote a python script that grabs all of the data and graphs it once every ten minutes. But I love tech stuff so that was a plus for me!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> How happy are you guys with the Seneye? I was thinking of picking one up. I usually just go by Lumens and eyeball plants, but could be fun/beneficial to use. Do you use it for Ammonia and PH as well.


I only use my Seneye for taking PAR readings.

Honestly I don't think the other features offer much real benefit.

As mentioned above, pH only goes to 6.4, so not useful for me. I don't really need to monitor ammonia, and I have a temperature controller.......so for me it's strictly for PAR.

And keep in mind in order to use the pH/Ammonia functions, you need to buy "slides" that last about a month. A three month supply is about $35.00, so again not worth it to me.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Greggz said:


> ...
> And keep in mind in order to use the pH/Ammonia functions, you need to buy "slides" that last about a month. A three month supply is about $35.00, so again not worth it to me.


Good to know. I would probably not be into a continuous need for the supply.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

A couple of updates. I took everything out of my tank and bleached everything in a 20:1 water/bleach solution, even my plants. My plants stayed in for three minutes, everything else (rocks, equipment heads, heater, etc) overnight. My wood I used liberal doses of H2O2 over and over again as I did not want to get bleach soaked into the wood. Everything was rinsed with freshwater and then with tap water treated with Aqueon Water Conditioner to kill off any remaining bleach. 

I also got some excel and I am trying to determine if I should do my water change before or after I overdose with excel which seems like an accepted method of killing off any remaining BBA (most likely from my substrate I would imagine). 

Thankfully all of my fish survived all the excitement (so far):










While I was at it I added a nice new air/CO2 purge valve to my DIY CO2 Reactor:










I have another thread on my BBA problem where I asked a few questions so I won't duplicate those questions here, but if anyone has some insight HERE is the thread with my questions near the bottom!

@Greggz - Thank you for some great advice. I also went ahead and ordered a pinpoint pH controller after reading what you had to say about them. Once I get it and get it installed I will update my journal here with new pics!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

OK, a few more updates. BBA purge has been completed, now we will see if we can keep it out of the tank. I put everything back in and went ahead and got a few more plants to add back into the tank so it starts looking like a planted tank again. 











Moving on to things on the tech side, I went ahead and invested in the Atlas Scientific WiFi Hydroponics Meter Kit which you can see in the upper left of the picture below. Basically it reports pH, EC, and temperature about every 15 seconds. The pH and EC probes are from Atlas, a company I have had great success with regarding probes with my pool control project. They ship with the calibration solutions for both the pH and EC probes, and they look pretty dead on. 










It runs on a Feather Huzzah connected via wifi and (as of right now) sends all of it's data to Thingspeak (free). I can program so when I get the time I will rewrite the sketch to talk directly to my internal Influx database. As of right now I just wrote a python script to grab the latest json data from Thingspeak and write it to my tank database once a minute, then I graph it from there with Grafana. If anyone has an interest in any of that, I posted everything on my Github site. I will continue to build on my tank monitoring project and include a web-based dashboard with monitoring and operational capabilities to the extent I am able to integrate my automation with python. So far I have been able to do a lot of it with the exception of my Fluval lights because they use Bluetooth and talk directly to an app on my phone. A task for another day to figure that out! 










It's a mess for now and I need to spend some time on wire management.

Also, my auto dosing pump has been giving me fits. The first one works great and never loses prime, the second one was losing prime so I moved it over to the third one which worked great for a bit and now it is losing prime. After making sure the hose is ok, I moved it over to the forth one. I guess I may have to go with a better dosing pump. This one was around $65 as I recall. I guess you get what you pay for....

If anyone has any good advice on a rock solid dosing pump (not that needs the Apex system to run), please let me know.


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

Just get a GHL doser. The SA model has a built in controller and allows you to expand to up too 18 dosing heads. 

https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/usa/product-category/ghl-doser/


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

EdWiser said:


> Just get a GHL doser. The SA model has a built in controller and allows you to expand to up too 18 dosing heads.
> 
> https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/usa/product-category/ghl-doser/


Thanks, they look like a lot better build!!


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

They are made in Germany. [emoji3]


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

EdWiser said:


> They are made in Germany. [emoji3]


hahah, that would explain it!

Thank for the tip!


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

They made them an in China and they stole the design. So owner pulled it back to Germany. An changed the design. I have 6 of them. I keep corals too. [emoji3]


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

EdWiser said:


> They made them an in China and they stole the design. So owner pulled it back to Germany. An changed the design. I have 6 of them. I keep corals too. [emoji3]


Sounds like China tends to do that a lot!

Do you have any problem with where you have the doser placed? Mine is below my tank and I am wondering if I put it higher if I would not have the flow back I seem to be getting.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Latest Water Test Results - Why is my kH so LOW?*

So here are my water test results from today. I changed the water on the 7th and as I get nearer to my water change time I like to see how my water is doing:


Here were my previous readings before my water change:


*Water Readings from 2/2/2020*
kH - 2
gH - 5
PO4 - 7
pH - 7.0
Nitrate - 10
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - 0
EC - 440 µS
TDS - 217 ppm



*Water Readings from 2/10/2020*
kH - 2
gH - 6
PO4 - 2 (Purigen looks like it really works)
pH - 7.0
Nitrate - 10
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - 0
EC - 481 µS
TDS - 241 ppm


So I have been reading on what my KH levels should be at for my tank. I have read a lot of stuff where people say that it does not matter and then places like HERE where they say to get it to and keep it between 3 - 8 dKH for a planted tank. It seems to be right at 2 and I was wondering if I need to do something to bump it up or is 2 dKH really fine for a planted tank. I understand the "concept" of more KH - ie buffering so that you do not have large pH swings. But I inject CO2 so I expect to see about a 1pt change during the day.

Looking for some insight. 


Thanks

And just so I can keep track of my tank's progress, the latest picture:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> So I have been reading on what my KH levels should be at for my tank. I have read a lot of stuff where people say that it does not matter and then places like HERE where they say to get it to and keep it between 3 - 8 dKH for a planted tank. It seems to be right at 2 and I was wondering if I need to do something to bump it up or is 2 dKH really fine for a planted tank.


The lower KH the water the easier everything is. I keep my KH at just under 1.0, and so do many others. No reason at all to bump it up to something like 8.0.....unless you want to limit your plant choices.

And keep on eye on your plants. At those NO3/PO4 numbers mine would be very unhappy (starving). Just saying pay more attention to your plants than the readings, they will tell you what they like.


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Sounds like China tends to do that a lot!
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any problem with where you have the doser placed? Mine is below my tank and I am wondering if I put it higher if I would not have the flow back I seem to be getting.




I have had them under the tank. You can use a check valve in the line if you are worried. Mine are in the garage an are pumped into the living room. Being a peristaltic pump they can pump a long distance.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

MD500_Pilot said:


> I have read a lot of stuff where people say that it does not matter and then places like HERE where they say to get it to and keep it between 3 - 8 dKH for a planted tank. It seems to be right at 2 and I was wondering if I need to do something to bump it up or is 2 dKH really fine for a planted tank. I understand the "concept" of more KH - ie buffering so that you do not have large pH swings.


If you have an alkalinity of 2dKH you should be fine.
It is good that you monitor KH on occasion, but when under 1dKH you need to modify the test.

2dKH would be a very safe target unless you want it lower.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> The lower KH the water the easier everything is. I keep my KH at just under 1.0, and so do many others. No reason at all to bump it up to something like 8.0.....unless you want to limit your plant choices.
> 
> And keep on eye on your plants. At those NO3/PO4 numbers mine would be very unhappy (starving). Just saying pay more attention to your plants than the readings, they will tell you what they like.


Really? I actually added purigen to get my PO4 numbers back under control. They were off the charts (literally) until I started to do 50% weekly water changes (that got it down to about 7 ppm) and I just added purigen on my last filter cleaning. And I thought the *max* the NO3 was supposed to be was 10ppm and better if it were lower. 

Is this not the case?

I am dosing the tank using the PPS-Pro dosing regimen with auto dosing pumps every day FWIW.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Really? I actually added purigen to get my PO4 numbers back under control. They were off the charts (literally) until I started to do 50% weekly water changes (that got it down to about 7 ppm) and I just added purigen on my last filter cleaning. And I thought the *max* the NO3 was supposed to be was 10ppm and better if it were lower.
> 
> Is this not the case?
> 
> I am dosing the tank using the PPS-Pro dosing regimen with auto dosing pumps every day FWIW.


I can only tell you what works in my tank. I do not follow PPS-Pro, and don't know of many successful high light stem tanks that do. 

I DOSE 7 ppm PO4 per week to get water column to 14 ppm. I dose 15 ppm NO3 to get water column to 30 ppm (accumulation). If I tested 10 ppm NO3 in my tank my stems would be dying or dead.

Again, just saying don't fall in love with a system, better to listen to your plants. You could dose multiple times what you are with no ill effects......and probably better.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Most Ei target ranges take no3 up to 30ppm. Mine routinely measure 40-60ppm. You also have low Kh which is better in most cases for plants (as @Greggz pointed out). These numbers are based on dosing good amounts and not from an organic source like fish waste, food, decaying leaves. High no3 numbers based on decomposition of these things can lead to algae and fish issues IMO. 

Did you figure out what the source of your PO4 numbers were?


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Well, I guess I need to read and learn a lot more. Pretty much everything that I have read to date is how to get those numbers down not up, and there are a lot of products out on the market for keeping those number low, I guess I just don't understand how there could be so vastly different ideas on what these levels should be. If we want such high levels, how do these companies sell products to keep them low?

For example, PetMD says this about NO3:


> Over time, at just 30 ppm, nitrate can negatively impact cell development in both fishes and invertebrates. Lethargy, poor color, poor immune system and weakened feeding response are all signs of nitrate poisoning.


and



> Most professional aquarists contend that nitrate concentrations should never exceed 20 ppm but are much more safely maintained below 10 ppm.
> Still, nitrate concentrations of just a few parts per million can lead to massive algal blooms. These may occur as either planktonic (e.g., "green water") or benthic (e.g., film or slime) blooms.


TFH Magazine says this:


> Although many aquarists run their tanks with extreme nitrate levels, the ideal is a maximum of 5 to 10 ppm. Levels of 20 to 50 ppm are too high. Freshwater tanks can be at the higher end, with marine fish-only setups at the lower end and reef tanks as near zero as possible.


Aqueon states to keep NO3 below 30 ppm!

The Spruce Pets says this:


> In nature, nitrate in water remains very low, generally well below 5 ppm. In freshwater aquariums, nitrates should be kept below 50 ppm at all times, and preferably below 25 ppm. If you are breeding fish, or are battling algae growth, keep nitrate even lower, below 10 ppm.
> 
> and
> 
> Elevated nitrate is a significant contributor to undesirable algae growth, and nitrate levels as low as 10 ppm will promote algae growth. The algal blooms that are common in newly set-up tanks are usually due to elevated nitrate levels.



I guess I am just frustrated that there seems to be so much information out there that does not make sense. Some people say target super high amount, some people say target super low amount, how do I as a new comer to planted tanks know what to believe and what is total crap? In fact, I can't really find anything that says higher is better, just to get the number _down_!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> Most Ei target ranges take no3 up to 30ppm. Mine routinely measure 40-60ppm.


So this site was recommended several times here and when I plug in for NO3 it tells me that the recommended is 7.5 ppm:









Also, Chris's site also target's 7.5 ppm.

Where is the 30ppm EI target coming from or how do I calculate it?


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## Crazyjayb (Jan 9, 2020)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Well, I guess I need to read and learn a lot more. Pretty much everything that I have read to date is how to get those numbers down not up, and there are a lot of products out on the market for keeping those number low, I guess I just don't understand how there could be so vastly different ideas on what these levels should be. If we want such high levels, how do these companies sell products to keep them low?
> 
> For example, PetMD says this about NO3:
> 
> ...


My opinion and what many others on this forum believe is that the optimum no3 level is around 20-40

These sources are being incredibly conservative (most likely for the dishes sake) but if your tank is heavily planted it will eat up those nitrates.

Im sure someone can explain all the fancy stuff but what I know from experience and other members is that 20-40 is good for a planted aquarium.

Often times they can go even higher with no adverse effects on fish.


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## Crazyjayb (Jan 9, 2020)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Asteroid said:
> 
> 
> > Most Ei target ranges take no3 up to 30ppm. Mine routinely measure 40-60ppm.
> ...


The 30ppm target is what most people like to have it at when using the EI method. 7.5ppm is the amount per dose

More importantly as greggz said, listen to your plants. This dosing amount is simply to start out with, get accustomed to it if you will. Then it's up to you to adjust your dosing based off how your plants are doing.

Getting it perfectly tuned is very hard, especially when your constantly trimming plants and lowering and raising the bio mass. That is why the EI method always puts more than enough nutrients in the water


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Pretty much everything that I have read to date is how to get those numbers down not up, and there are a lot of products out on the market for keeping those number low


Alot of those places you quoted are from fish sources and not necessarily talking about planted tanks. In a fish only environment your not dosing nitrate, it's being produced by mostly fish waste so they are always trying to get those numbers down.

The TFH source asks:

What Is Nitrate?

Ammonia is the most significant dissolved waste in an aquarium. It is produced by fish wastes, rotting leftover food, and decomposing plant matter. The bacteria in your biofilter convert ammonia first into nitrite and then into nitrate. While ammonia and nitrite are highly toxic to fish, nitrate is much less so. However, as nitrate accumulates, fish will eventually be affected.

This is nitrate from ammonia, from decay in the tank. Dosed nitrate does not carry this baggage for ammonia and toxins that IMO is doing the damage not the actual nitrate number. I took quite a lashing from many here that nitrate is nitrate, but everything I've seen says this is not true.

There are many ways to run a planted tank, the whole ADA system uses leaner water column numbers but they have the active, highly nutrient rich substrate as the backbone.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> So this site was recommended several times here and when I plug in for NO3 it tells me that the recommended is 7.5 ppm:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's 7.5 ppm per dose.

Dosed 3x per week. That's 22.50 ppm NO3 dosed per week.

Assuming 50% weekly water change, max NO3 value from accumulation is 45.00 ppm NO3.

So that means your tank measuring about 25 to 40 ppm NO3 on a regular basis, depending on the amount of plant uptake.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Ah...and the light comes on....

I see the dosing now, I was thinking it was total as opposed to each dosing. 

So after a lot more reading, as I understand it, the main difference between PPS-Pro and EI is that EI floods the tank with nutrients well in excess of what the plants actually need and you control the total amount of nutrients in the water column via the 50% weekly water changes. PPS-Pro basically targets exactly what nutrients the plants need without overdosing. The main idea behind EI is that the plants will never lack nutrients. 

Am I basically reading this correctly?

Then I use something like Chris's formula to start and watch how the plants are doing and then adjust depending on how they grow or don't grow. 

Do I have the concept down?










Bump:


Asteroid said:


> This is nitrate from ammonia, from decay in the tank. Dosed nitrate does not carry this baggage for ammonia and toxins that IMO is doing the damage not the actual nitrate number. I took quite a lashing from many here that nitrate is nitrate, but everything I've seen says this is not true.


This makes a lot more sense. I guess good nitrates vs. bad nitrates would be the way to look at it and I would also guess that you would have to see an ammonia spike in order to get bad nitrates, would that be a correct assumption? So if I am doing 50% water changes each week the chances of building "bad" nitrates would be very small and the nitrates I would be measuring would be from nutrients instead of waste, correct?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Ah...and the light comes on....
> 
> I see the dosing now, I was thinking it was total as opposed to each dosing.
> 
> ...


Yes in a very basic way. Most who dose EI do not blindly follow EI. They find a combination that brings out the best in their mix of plants in their eco system.

For instance EI would prescribe my N:K dosing at roughly 22:4:22. But my tank does better at 15:7:18.

Here's a link to a thread that lists the dosing of some members here. You will see it varies quite a bit from tank to tank.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1288329-share-your-dosing-thread.html



MD500_Pilot said:


> Then I use something like Chris's formula to start and watch how the plants are doing and then adjust depending on how they grow or don't grow.


I can't say I am fan of that chart. It would have you dosing almost 40 ppm NO3 weekly into a 100G tank!! That's dosing, not with accumulation (80ppm). 

As you've started to do, learn how to use the Rotalabutterfly or Zorfox calculators. Start thinking in terms of ppm, not tsp measurements. And a cheap ($20) gram scale is a great investment, as small fractions of tsp's are a lousy measurement. Here is a link to my thread where I compare tsp to gram scale.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1020497-greggz-120g-rainbow-fish-tank-new-video-12-28-2019-a-137.html#post11162589





MD500_Pilot said:


> This makes a lot more sense. I guess good nitrates vs. bad nitrates would be the way to look at it and I would also guess that you would have to see an ammonia spike in order to get bad nitrates, would that be a correct assumption? So if I am doing 50% water changes each week the chances of building "bad" nitrates would be very small and the nitrates I would be measuring would be from nutrients instead of waste, correct?


This concept is very controversial, and sometimes results in tense arguments. Put me in the same camp as @Asteroid. There is a world of difference between a dirty tank generating NO3, and a pristine tank that is dosed with NO3.

And I get your frustration when looking things up. Lots of contradictory information out there. My advice is to seek out hobbyist who demonstrate (not talk about) success that have similar goals to your own (high/low light, easy/difficult plants, etc.). Then study their methods. And by methods, I don't mean just dosing. I mean everything. 

Believe me, when you see a really spectacular tank, it didn't get there by accident. It took thought, effort, trial and error, and getting past many mistakes. The success of others can be a map on how to get there yourself.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Yes in a very basic way. Most who dose EI do not blindly follow EI. They find a combination that brings out the best in their mix of plants in their eco system.
> 
> For instance EI would prescribe my N:K dosing at roughly 22:4:22. But my tank does better at 15:7:18.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the link to the thread, it looks pretty comprehensive. I have been looking at Rotalabutterfly and I see how it works, and I have a good gram scale already as I was using it for the PPS-Pro measuring. My BIG question is *Where do I start???*. I get that it's my tank and that *over time* I will end up figuring out what works for me, but until I figure it out, what do I use as a starting point? Chris's chart is pretty clear but apparently the NO3 would be too high, and it seems like the other charts are all over the place. 

For example, this site says:


> Typical EI values, as standard, are: nitrate (NO3) 20ppm (parts per million) per week; potassium (K) 30ppm per week; phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week; magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week and iron (Fe) 0.5ppm per week.


So, I am in for the long haul, don't mind learning, but would prefer not to kill $500 of fish by guessing the wrong amounts to start out with out of the gate! And once I start, how do I know what parameters to change and what to base that change on?

And to add on, I was trying to figure out the math behind the 40ppm of NO3 you mentioned you would get using Chris's chart. How did you get to that number:










When I plug in 40PPM of NO3, dosing 15ml three times per week (45ml total) in a 500ml solution, it says I would need to add 205 grams of NO3, roughly twice what Chris's chart is showing. So I think I must not be using the app correctly.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> My BIG question is *Where do I start???*. I get that it's my tank and that *over time* I will end up figuring out what works for me, but until I figure it out, what do I use as a starting point? Chris's chart is pretty clear but apparently the NO3 would be too high, and it seems like the other charts are all over the place.


Do you an estimate on how much PAR your lights are producing? Light is the gas pedal that drives everything else. The more light, the more ferts, more CO2, and more maintenance a tank will require.

Have you seen any tanks here you would like to emulate? If so, reach out to those folks via PM. Most here are very generous with their time and experience. 

So far it looks like you are going to be trying to grow stems, and they need more of everything compared to low tech plants like crypts/swords/ferns. 

IMO, a good place to start is about weekly N:K 15:5:15. Should be enough for most plants. Micros are another long discussion, but somewhere between 0.4 to 0.6 weekly Fe from micros would be a good start. 

What are you using for micros? Personally I am not a fan of CSM+B for a lot of reasons. Here is a link to a thread that goes deeper. 

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1221018-custom-micro-mix-thread.html#post10660026

If you do use CSM+B, you might want to add some DTPA Fe in addition to the EDTA provided.



MD500_Pilot said:


> So, I am in for the long haul, don't mind learning, but would prefer not to kill $500 of fish by guessing the wrong amounts to start out with out of the gate! And once I start, how do I know what parameters to change and what to base that change on?


You are not going to kill fish by adding ferts, so don't worry about that. As to changing parameters, it comes from trial and error and experience. Over time you will get better at reading your plants.

Let's say you are on the same dosing schedule for a few months, and some stems are not at peak health. Slowly try raising one element at a time, and observe for a few weeks. Or run your dosing by the forum here, and you will get some suggestions. I know it seems like a crazy way to do things, but that is the way folks settle into a good dosing routine for their tank.

And keep in mind dosing is only one part of the process. Excellent maintenance, uber clean conditions, good plant management, and good consistent CO2 levels are equally as important.

And remember, even if you get everything "right", some plants may not like the soup you are serving. So there is also trial and error in trying new plants and getting the best mix that likes your parameters. I can keep a lot of "difficult" plants, but can't grow any AR species and some simple ones like S. Repens. Go figure? But guess what, I don't keep those species anymore (after banging my head against the wall a few times!!).


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> And to add on, I was trying to figure out the math behind the 40ppm of NO3 you mentioned you would get using Chris's chart. How did you get to that number:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was going by the top of the page with the dry dosing recommendations. 

100G 1.5 tsp KNO3 is 12.63 ppm NO3 three times a week or 37.89 NO3 weekly. 

I had not looked at the solution dosing, but I just did and it looks correct. So it's going for 7.5 ppm 3 x times a week for 22.5 ppm weekly. Not a bad place to start.

But I did notice that it still lists Fe from CSM+B at 0.5 ppm per dose. That's 1.5 ppm weekly, which is way more than any tank requires. There was a big battle over this back in 2015, and the conclusion was that even the inventor of EI Tom Barr agreed it was way too much. It was lowered to 0.2 and is listed that way in most up to date sites.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Do you an estimate on how much PAR your lights are producing? Light is the gas pedal that drives everything else. The more light, the more ferts, more CO2, and more maintenance a tank will require.
> 
> Have you seen any tanks here you would like to emulate? If so, reach out to those folks via PM. Most here are very generous with their time and experience.
> 
> ...



Well, I chose my plants by looking at them at the LFS so not a very scientific way to do things for sure. I don't really know what I want or like except I would like some really nice carpet plants for sure. I would eventually like a lot more plants and a full carpet. 

I purchased individual salts from Niloc and I did get the CSM+B Plantex stuff as was recommended by others. I'll use that up and then look at alternatives if that is not the best to use.

As far as lights go, this is what my par meter is showing from the back of the tank:


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

It would seem Gregg and others are offering a lot of good advice. One thing I have learned over the last 4+ years is plants will put up with a pretty wide range of of dosing methods. Some methods will bring out better results, but that takes time to learn. The big thing for me was consistency! Plants are pretty slow to respond - we on the other hand want it fixed right now. Took we probably 2 years to figure that one out. So, pick something and stick with it for a month or 2. Make some notes about what you are seeing - better or worse. But understand, worse is not always bad. Some times the plant is just transitioning from what it was used to, to what you are now giving it.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> I was going by the top of the page with the dry dosing recommendations.
> 
> 100G 1.5 tsp KNO3 is 12.63 ppm NO3 three times a week or 37.89 NO3 weekly.
> 
> ...


So quick question. On the dosing thread you are showing Fe at 0.53 ppm, is that a weekly number I assume based on your statement above?

And if I understand the process correctly, the standard EI dosing os CSM+B provides 0.5 ppm per dose. This matches what I have read about the EI dosing:










But we really should target 0.2 ppm per dose so instead of 72.46 grams of CSM+B in 500 mL dosing 15mL x 3 times a week I would use 28.98 grams which would get me the 0.2 ppm per dose:










I just wnat to make sure I understand how to back into these numbers using these tools...

Bump:


Immortal1 said:


> It would seem Gregg and others are offering a lot of good advice. One thing I have learned over the last 4+ years is plants will put up with a pretty wide range of of dosing methods. Some methods will bring out better results, but that takes time to learn. The big thing for me was consistency! Plants are pretty slow to respond - we on the other hand want it fixed right now. Took we probably 2 years to figure that one out. So, pick something and stick with it for a month or 2. Make some notes about what you are seeing - better or worse. But understand, worse is not always bad. Some times the plant is just transitioning from what it was used to, to what you are now giving it.


That is great advice and thankfully it seems like everyone here is willing to help with all the questions. I am excited to learn and while we have the 75 gallon now, my wife and kids are talking about getting me a 200 gallon for my birthday so I am trying to get a real good read on everything now while it is a smaller tank!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> So quick question. On the dosing thread you are showing Fe at 0.53 ppm, is that a weekly number I assume based on your statement above?
> 
> And if I understand the process correctly, the standard EI dosing os CSM+B provides 0.5 ppm per dose. This matches what I have read about the EI dosing:
> 
> But we really should target 0.2 ppm per dose so instead of 72.46 grams of CSM+B in 500 mL dosing 15mL x 3 times a week I would use 28.98 grams which would get me the 0.2 ppm per dose:


Yep, you got it right, 0.53 total Fe weekly.

0.5 three times a week caused a lot of problems for a lot of tanks, so they lowered the recommendation to 0.2 x 3. 

I keep forgetting you have the Seneye. Get a reading in an unobstructed/not shaded place as close to the center of tank at the substrate. Knowing your PAR will help explain a lot of things that might happen in your tank.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Yep, you got it right, 0.53 total Fe weekly.
> 
> 0.5 three times a week caused a lot of problems for a lot of tanks, so they lowered the recommendation to 0.2 x 3.
> 
> I keep forgetting you have the Seneye. Get a reading in an unobstructed/not shaded place as close to the center of tank at the substrate. Knowing your PAR will help explain a lot of things that might happen in your tank.


OK! i'll plan my Fe dosing at 0.2 to start. Here is my placement of my Seneye (dead center of the tank front to back and side to side):










Here are the readings:


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

So another question about lowering the Fe to 0.02. If I do that I also lower Mg, dGH, Cu, B, Mn, Mo, S and Zn as well. WOuld I need to use another product to bring these values back up or leave them where they are at and dose strictly on the 0.2 ppm Fe number?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Hmmm, 146 might be a bit much for a young tank.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> So another question about lowering the Fe to 0.02. If I do that I also lower Mg, dGH, Cu, B, Mn, Mo, S and Zn as well. WOuld I need to use another product to bring these values back up or leave them where they are at and dose strictly on the 0.2 ppm Fe number?


If you are using CSM+B, it's calculated based on the Fe content. So the others are always in the same proportion.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Immortal1 said:


> Hmmm, 146 might be a bit much for a young tank.


Young as in too few plants or young as in age. I have had the tank since June. Is there an Uber post about light levels I should read like the dosing 

Bump:


Greggz said:


> If you are using CSM+B, it's calculated based on the Fe content. So the others are always in the same proportion.


Got it!


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> OK! i'll plan my Fe dosing at 0.2 to start. Here is my placement of my Seneye (dead center of the tank front to back and side to side):


Oh my.......146 PAR at the substrate!

That is a LOT of light. With that kind of light, you better have everything else very, very well tuned. My tank can't sustain that amount of PAR for any length of time without algae creeping up.

With a newer tank and a modest plant load, you could get by with half that. You really want to start lower then creep up once you get things established and growing.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Wow, nearly 150??? I agree with Gregg- if you can cut it to 70 - 80 PAR that will give you a good foundation. Then, if you want, you can crank the light slowly over the next few months. 

I am having the same battle with my 75 on GDA right now, and though my T5 can blast 150 I have set up bulbs to do about 80ish.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

OK, more great information. I went ahead and just adjusted my light levels down by 50%. The profile that I started with was from Fluval for "Planted" tanks. So I am not sure the specific colors are correct, but I will start with 50% and remeasure PAR tomorrow when my lights come back on...

*Before:*









*After:*


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

We have many threads with Fluval programs. I have a dual siesta in my Photos (for human benefit).

Lots of choices!


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

+1 on the siesta

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Soooo, sorry for all of these questions on dosing, but here are a few more:

With EI it looks like I am making two solutions, the first is KNO3 and KH2PO4 (and optionally K2SO4). The second solution is Plantex CSM+B. 
PPS-Pro uses K2S04, KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4 and CaSO4. So what does CaSO4 & MgSO4 add in the PPS solution that are no longer needed in the EI solution?

Also, on the dosing thread under KH/GH I see Ca and Mg. How are we dosing for those elements? And finally, for my RODI water I am dosing Seachem Equilibrium to bring my GH to 3ppm. I see that has the Ca and Mg, but if I try to dose for the levels of Ca and Mg (using Equilibrium) I get 85 ppm of K so I think I need something different for my Ca and Mg, correct?

Bump:


Streetwise said:


> We have many threads with Fluval programs. I have a dual siesta in my Photos (for human benefit).
> 
> Lots of choices!


OK, so just so I make sure I understand it, what we are interested in is the total amount of light received by the plants during the day, not a specific intensity at any point in the day?

For example, instead of cutting my light from 147 Par for 8 hours to 75 Par for 8 hours, I can do 147 Par for 4 hours total. Is this the correct way to think about light?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Soooo, sorry for all of these questions on dosing, but here are a few more:
> 
> With EI it looks like I am making two solutions, the first is KNO3 and KH2PO4 (and optionally K2SO4). The second solution is Plantex CSM+B.
> PPS-Pro uses K2S04, KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4 and CaSO4. So what does CaSO4 & MgSO4 add in the PPS solution that are no longer needed in the EI solution?
> ...


Clearly you have been reading/studying/learning  I believe the original EI method made certain assumptions, i.e. you were using tap water with enough Ca & Mg. With the PPS Pro I believe they were trying to make sure everything was covered? I will have to look on Rotala to figure out what other numbers GH of 3 also adds with Equalibrium. So far, I am not a big fan of the GH boosters as they seem to add way too much K to the equation. I plan on adding CaSO4 and MgSO4 to my newly set up RO system.
Yes, correct on the light. Number of photons I believe how it's explained. 8 hours of 50 or 4 hours of 100 - either setting gives you 400 photons for the day ( or something like that).


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> With EI it looks like I am making two solutions, the first is KNO3 and KH2PO4 (and optionally K2SO4). The second solution is Plantex CSM+B.
> PPS-Pro uses K2S04, KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4 and CaSO4. So what does CaSO4 & MgSO4 add in the PPS solution that are no longer needed in the EI solution?


CaSO4 and MgSO4 may be needed with EI. All depends on one's source water. In your case, you will want to be raising your GH whichever method you use. 

Forget the Equilibrium and just get CaSO4 and MgSO4. No extra K and you can control the ratio.



MD500_Pilot said:


> For example, instead of cutting my light from 147 Par for 8 hours to 75 Par for 8 hours, I can do 147 Par for 4 hours total. Is this the correct way to think about light?


No, it's not. 

Lower the PAR and run for 8 hours a day. 147 PAR is too much for your tank right now. 

And personally I have not seen anything that makes me believe a siesta is helpful......but who knows?

Remember, plants have a rhythm. They wake up, they open the flowers, they soak up the light, then they close the flowers and shut down for the night. Personally I would not disrupt that rhythm, but maybe for some it works? I know that no one that I follow with high tech tanks does so, but again I have no experience and have never tried it.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Immortal1 said:


> Clearly you have been reading/studying/learning  I believe the original EI method made certain assumptions, i.e. you were using tap water with enough Ca & Mg. With the PPS Pro I believe they were trying to make sure everything was covered? I will have to look on Rotala to figure out what other numbers GH of 3 also adds with Equalibrium. So far, I am not a big fan of the GH boosters as they seem to add way too much K to the equation. I plan on adding CaSO4 and MgSO4 to my newly set up RO system.
> Yes, correct on the light. Number of photons I believe how it's explained. 8 hours of 50 or 4 hours of 100 - either setting gives you 400 photons for the day ( or something like that).


So based on the instruction on the Equilibrium, I have been adding 32 grams to roughly 40 gallons of RODI water prior to adding the water into my tank during my 50% water changes. Here is what Rotala says is happening to the 40 gallons of water:











Now this is not totally correct as my tank already has some of this stuff in it, but if I were to add it to my water in my tank without any of those things in the water column it would look like this:











I have the CaSO4 and the MgSO4 but would using them instead of Equilibrium add everything I need to bring my GH up to maintain my target or around 3 or so...?

So the Equilibrium is giving me *some* of my Ca and Mg, but not enough it would seem.

Bump:


Greggz said:


> CaSO4 and MgSO4 may be needed with EI. All depends on one's source water. In your case, you will want to be raising your GH whichever method you use.
> 
> Forget the Equilibrium and just get CaSO4 and MgSO4. No extra K and you can control the ratio.


OK, I already have the CaSO4 and MgSO4 so I will use them instead of the Equilibrium. Much cheaper as well. 



> No, it's not.
> 
> Lower the PAR and run for 8 hours a day. 147 PAR is too much for your tank right now.
> 
> ...


Sounds good, I will give the 50% levels a try. I assume as I add more plants that I would increase the light or would it stay at that level forever?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Greggz said:


> ...
> And personally I have not seen anything that makes me believe a siesta is helpful......but who knows?


The siesta method is really based on a soil tank. Soil generates some co2 (not nearly as much as pressurized) so depending on plant mass, the co2 might get used by mid-day or so. Turning off the lights allows the co2 to build up again and the plants have it for the rest of the light cycle. Well that is what is being put forth by D. Walstad


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> The siesta method is really based on a soil tank. Soil generates some co2 (not nearly as much as pressurized) so depending on plant mass, the co2 might get used by mid-day or so. Turning off the lights allows the co2 to build up again and the plants have it for the rest of the light cycle. Well that is what is being put forth by D. Walstad


I'm using the CaribSea Eco-Complete for my substrate as it was supposed to be specific for planted tanks or so my LFS told/sold me...


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Dual siesta and dirt guy here.

Siesta, and dual siesta, are mostly for the human watching the tank. I get to wake up with my tank lights and (later), enjoy my tanks until bedtime without stressing my plants.

I have posted on the CO2 stuff, but the siestas are like power naps, but less than the night off. They are also very small compared to any CO2-injected tank. But they are real, and I can track them with my Apex.

Like naps, they are of diminishing returns, so I make my first photoperiod the brightest, and then less each time.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> I'm using the CaribSea Eco-Complete for my substrate as it was supposed to be specific for planted tanks or so my LFS told/sold me...


Nothing wrong with Eco Complete......but in the future I would pay very little attention to the advice from the LFS. Unless they have a spectacular planted display tank.

And that is not to paint all LFS with the same stroke, but my local ones do not have even half a clue.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

So one more question on the whole 50% lighting thing...I have been planning on adding Dwarf Baby tears as carpet in the front of my tank. I was just going to order some as it appears that it would like my water parameters. However, it states that high light is a must for this carpet. 

Since we just determined that my tank had too much light at 147 Par, does that mean that this would not grow well in my tank since I have now cut the light in half?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

MD500_Pilot said:


> So one more question on the whole 50% lighting thing...I have been planning on adding Dwarf Baby tears as carpet in the front of my tank. I was just going to order some as it appears that it would like my water parameters. However, it states that high light is a must for this carpet.
> 
> Since we just determined that my tank had too much light at 147 Par, does that mean that this would not grow well in my tank since I have now cut the light in half?


I've grown several full HC carpets out. At the time I didn't know my PAR, but based on the lights I was using I think 70-80 PAR is enough for HC. You absolutely need very good co2.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

70-80 PAR is still, IMO, high light. You need not bee 100+ to achieve good color a d growth. My advice is be patient with tuning your light higher. 

As @Asteroid said, get the CO2 right, and nutrients understood and in a good place. As @Greggz had said, light is the gas pedal. If you hit the light hard and other things are not in line you will likely wreck! Just remember the BBA you just faced off with recently!


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## gnovince (Dec 14, 2010)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Soooo, sorry for all of these questions on dosing, but here are a few more:


I gotta say you are asking great questions and getting great answers. Many people can and will learn from this journal.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

MD500_Pilot said:


>


Gee, I wonder what your other interests might be...

JK, love the build!


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

Dang it! Late to the party again. lol!

Just wanted to add some clarity to my +1 on the siesta...

Algae growth is a function of light and nutrients. More often than not, it's light that is the driving force. So whatever it takes to reduce the photo period. If you are the type of person, like me, that likes to have the lights on when you are around the tank then maybe one way to have that and reduce the photo period is to have a break sometime during the day. I don't subscribe to a strict 1 hr siesta at noon but I do incorporate some form of photo period break on all my tanks.

My +1 was more for @MD500_Pilot to look into it, since he was going from a dusk to dawn routine, rather than subscribe to a strict, "You have to have a siesta in order for plants to grow better". If you're good with a consecutive 6 hrs, or so, no worries.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Nothing wrong with Eco Complete......but in the future I would pay very little attention to the advice from the LFS. Unless they have a spectacular planted display tank.
> 
> And that is not to paint all LFS with the same stroke, but my local ones do not have even half a clue.


Actually I was taking their advice because they have an amazing display of different kinds and sizes of tanks all the way from some 20,000 gallon tanks to little nanos and they have a koy stream and pond running through their store. Having said all of this, I have often received two different opinions on my questions form two different people at the same store, so you are right, just because it is a fish store does not mean I do not need to fact check. I have learned more here on this forum and only wished I had found it before setting up my tank, I would have done it differently for sure!

Bump:


Asteroid said:


> I've grown several full HC carpets out. At the time I didn't know my PAR, but based on the lights I was using I think 70-80 PAR is enough for HC. You absolutely need very good co2.


Perfect, one other quick question about carpets - when you have a full carpet, how in the heck do you vacuum your substrate or otherwise keep it clean?


Bump: *And a quick question about tank circulation:*

Someone mentioned in the thread that I need to make sure I do not have any dead spots in my tank in regards to water circulation. I currently have an FX6 with the intake on the far left of the tank and the dual output directly in the center with the heads pointed up at the surface giving it pretty good agitation. I also have a 406 with the pickup about 1/3 from the right side of the tank and the return in the right corner of the tank pointing towards the front center. Not much surface agitation there.

After lights out I have been running bubblers in the back for about 3 to 4 hours to bring my pH back up. 

With this setup, should I invest in a circulation pump of some sort to move the water in the tank more? Beyond some surface agitation and the water movement as a result of the canister filters, I don't really have much more movement going on. I don't want to put hardware in the tank just to have it there, but if my plants/fish can benefit from more water movement I would do it in a heartbeat.

Thanks!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Lighting Update*

With the change in my lighting app from 100% to 50% as noted yesterday, I rechecked my Par and I am right around 80 now down from around 150.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Perfect, one other quick question about carpets - when you have a full carpet, how in the heck do you vacuum your substrate or otherwise keep it clean?


I have had thick Monte Carlo and Mini Dwarf Hairgrass carpets in the past, and if rooted well you can use a wide mouth siphon, say 2.5" in diameter, to clean and siphon out funky stuff from the carpet. This is once it is established. Also, if you keep a good trimming schedule on it this helps to keep it clean as well.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

MD500_Pilot said:


> ...
> 
> Perfect, one other quick question about carpets - when you have a full carpet, how in the heck do you vacuum your substrate or otherwise keep it clean?


If you have a full carpet, you can gently glide the suction over the top and try to remove any debris. No reason to do an actual gravel vac. In Hi-tech you don't want debris accumulating around the plants since it can lead to algae. You might have to pinch the hose with your finger in the event it's too much suction and you might uproot some of the carpet. You'll get the hang of it.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> If you have a full carpet, you can gently glide the suction over the top and try to remove any debris. No reason to do an actual gravel vac. In Hi-tech you don't want debris accumulating around the plants since it can lead to algae. You might have to pinch the hose with your finger in the event it's too much suction and you might uproot some of the carpet. You'll get the hang of it.


Perfect, right now I try and get in and actually get all the stuff out of the substrate as I was worried that this might be part of the cause of some of my algae problems.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> CaSO4 and MgSO4 may be needed with EI. All depends on one's source water. In your case, you will want to be raising your GH whichever method you use.
> 
> Forget the Equilibrium and just get CaSO4 and MgSO4. No extra K and you can control the ratio.


Hi @Greggz - 

OK so I am getting ready to start EI dosing and looking to do my weekly 50% water change on Sunday to start it all off. I was using Equilibrium to bring my GH up to about 3 - 4 ppm before adding to the tank, but you said to use CaSO4 and MgSO4 instead, both of which I have.

My question is how the heck do I figure out how much of it I need? When I go to Rotala and plug-in those elements, it does not allow me to dose for a specific target of GH, only K or Mg.

Here is my thought: If I use the formula for Equilibrium that basically gave me 4 dGH:










and then just backed into the Mg and Ca numbers that it provides (19.47 ppm Ca and 5.82 ppm Mg) I should come up with this:










and










So looking at this I would add 7.82 grams of MgSO4 and 11.08 grams of CaSO4 to my RODI water before adding it to my tank.

Does this seem right? It looks right....


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## Squisher (Nov 18, 2019)

gnovince said:


> I gotta say you are asking great questions and getting great answers. Many people can and will learn from this journal.


I have no help to give in this journal besides appreciation and encouragement. But I just wanted to echo the above sentiment and thank everyone for all of the information shared as well as you md500pilot for sparking some great conversation. I have learned a lot from this thread just following along which is helping me with my own aquarium.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Squisher said:


> I have no help to give in this journal besides appreciation and encouragement. But I just wanted to echo the above sentiment and thank everyone for all of the information shared as well as you md500pilot for sparking some great conversation. I have learned a lot from this thread just following along which is helping me with my own aquarium.


I could not have said it better myself, there is a lot of knowledge in this forum and it certainly makes it much more fun having others to bounce ideas off of who are willing to share their experiences!

Bump: 


EdWiser said:


> Just get a GHL doser. The SA model has a built in controller and allows you to expand to up too 18 dosing heads.
> 
> https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/usa/product-category/ghl-doser/


Money well spent, thanks for the tip @EdWiser


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> So looking at this I would add 7.82 grams of MgSO4 and 11.08 grams of CaSO4 to my RODI water before adding it to my tank.
> 
> Does this seem right? It looks right....


Yep you got it right.

And GH does not need to be an exact target. Not much difference between a couple degrees here or there, as long as there is enough.

If anything, I would bump up even a bit higher, maybe to 6 GH or so. And IMO try to keep Ca:Mg between 3:1 and 2:1. I run mine at 2:1 and GH 8....but again, anywhere in those general ranges should be good.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Yep you got it right.
> 
> And GH does not need to be an exact target. Not much difference between a couple degrees here or there, as long as there is enough.
> 
> If anything, I would bump up even a bit higher, maybe to 6 GH or so. And IMO try to keep Ca:Mg between 3:1 and 2:1. I run mine at 2:1 and GH 8....but again, anywhere in those general ranges should be good.


Got it - sounds like a good starting point, my tank has been running around 5 - 6 dGH right now. I'm installing my new doser tomorrow and doing my normal water change on Sunday so I will see how things go. 

One other quick question about tank circulation - I asked this in an earlier thread but not sure anyone saw it, so I figured I would ask again or maybe I should open a thread in the equipment section?

Someone mentioned in the thread that I need to make sure I do not have any dead spots in my tank in regards to water circulation. I currently have an FX6 with the intake on the far left of the tank and the dual output directly in the center with the heads pointed up at the surface giving it pretty good agitation. I also have a 406 with the pickup about 1/3 from the right side of the tank and the return in the right corner of the tank pointing towards the front center. Not much surface agitation there.

After lights out I have been running bubblers in the back for about 3 to 4 hours to bring my pH back up.

With this setup, should I invest in a circulation pump of some sort to move the water in the tank more? Beyond some surface agitation and the water movement as a result of the canister filters, I don't really have much more movement going on. I don't want to put hardware in the tank just to have it there, but if my plants/fish can benefit from more water movement I would do it in a heartbeat.


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> One other quick question about tank circulation - I asked this in an earlier thread but not sure anyone saw it, so I figured I would ask again or maybe I should open a thread in the equipment section?


I have heard lots of theories on flow. I can only tell you what works for me.

Basically enough but not too much....vague enough for you? Here's the thing, many hear flow is good so they ramp it up and plants are waving around frantically. That is not good flow. Many plants don't like it but algae does.

And too little flow is no good either. Stagnate water is not healthy.

In general, think wide gentle laminar flow.....with a purpose. We had a good discussion in my journal on this a while back that you might enjoy.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1020497-greggz-120g-rainbow-fish-tank-new-video-12-28-2019-a-110.html#post11125277


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> I have heard lots of theories on flow. I can only tell you what works for me.
> 
> Basically enough but not too much....vague enough for you? Here's the thing, many hear flow is good so they ramp it up and plants are waving around frantically. That is not good flow. Many plants don't like it but algae does.
> 
> ...


Perfect, I will give it a read. The FX6 and 406 seem to do pretty well in the 75-gallon tank, I just want to make sure!!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Perfect, I will give it a read. The FX6 and 406 seem to do pretty well in the 75-gallon tank, I just want to make sure!!


I think that sounds like plenty.

I run three canisters in my 120G with no additional power heads.

And honestly, in the scheme of things, flow is of little consequence compared to most other things. That is, you can fine tune it, but rarely does anyone ever fix any problems by adding more flow.....and many would be better off reducing it.


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## Squisher (Nov 18, 2019)

Maybe I do have something to add after all for myself in my 45g I'm running two filters and then I have a nano powerhead positioned to disrupt/change flow on a smart plug that I set for some random timed events. 15min here and there. No real rhyme or reason. Just thinking that it's good to change up some circulation paths even if just briefly now and then to stir up debris and 'freshen' areas of the tank that might not see much movement otherwise. The caveat here is this is just my own idea that I've implemented and have no real track record or experience with it to say it's worthwhile. It's just what I'm doing.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Yep you got it right.
> 
> And GH does not need to be an exact target. Not much difference between a couple degrees here or there, as long as there is enough.
> 
> If anything, I would bump up even a bit higher, maybe to 6 GH or so. And IMO try to keep Ca:Mg between 3:1 and 2:1. I run mine at 2:1 and GH 8....but again, anywhere in those general ranges should be good.


OK, so based on all of these discussions, and using your spreadsheet, I think I have all the numbers plugged in correctly, just not sure I have enough of everything. 










I am using KNO3 vs Mg(NO3)2 and I am not using K2CO3 nor am I using NiS04.6H20. Not sure if I should switch out/add these or not or if this is a good starting point. I was a little worried that my dGH was only going to be around 4, so I bumped my CaSO4 and MgSO4 up to increase the dGH but I am not sure how far I can push Ca and Mg safely.

I also adjusted my Ca:Mg to 3:1 as suggested. 

Can you take a look and give me your thoughts as to a starting point?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Good morning. In looking at your spreadsheet there are couple things that stand out. And maybe one of them is just something you have not changed. 
* Your dKH looks good at 2
* Total Weekly PPM EI 105g 50% WC - Guessing the 105 is from Gregg's sheet?
* Your weekly K at 13.27 seems a bit low. Most tanks have a weekly ppm of 18+
* Your weekly NO3 at 22.5 seems high. But, then again I have been dosing a weekly 5ppm but that is for other reasons 
* Your Ca & Mg levels look good - likely what I will be targeting for my new RO system. At Ca 33.07 & Mg 11.00 you are not too high. My tap runs Ca 60 & Mg 20 (not saying my plants are great, but they do ok).
* Your micro dosing seems ok - I believe you are using Plantex CSM+B? Some of the weekly numbers seemed a little off, but then again it's their mix and it will likely do just fine at the levels you are dosing. 
Not that it matters to your spreadsheet, but I am a little curious about your experiences with having the FX6 and 406 filters on a 75g tank (lot of flow or just right?). Now granted, I have an AquaTOP CF500 rated at 525gph and a 400gph circulation fan so in reality its not much different that what you have. Personally, with all the fish that I have I would rather run an FX6 on my tank - just don't have the room in the cabinet for it :-(


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Immortal1 said:


> Good morning. In looking at your spreadsheet there are couple things that stand out. And maybe one of them is just something you have not changed.
> * Your dKH looks good at 2
> * Total Weekly PPM EI 105g 50% WC - Guessing the 105 is from Gregg's sheet?


Ah, yes - Didn't change that. I went ahead and made the change in the previous post but I think I might be calculating it wrong or may not understand what it actually represents. 

Here are my numbers:

To Create 500 mL of my Macros I am using:
KNO3 - 66.66g
KH2PO4 - 10.15g
K2SO4 - 91g

This totals 168 grams. I put that into 500 mL of preboiled RODI water and dose that solution 3 * week at 25mL to hit my targets. That puts me at 25g per week which is what I put in the sheet, but is that the correct way to calculate that number?




> * Your weekly K at 13.27 seems a bit low. Most tanks have a weekly ppm of 18+


OK, so in order to raise the potassium higher, I think I would increase K2SO4. To double K (resulting from K2SO4) I can increase from 91g to 182g and that would push my overall K up to 20.28 ppm. 
_Does this seem reasonable?_ On the EI stuff I have been reading, everyone seems to say that K2SO4 is optional. 182g for something that is deemed 'optional' seems like it might be high.



> * Your weekly NO3 at 22.5 seems high. But, then again I have been dosing a weekly 5ppm but that is for other reasons


This number I took right out of 7.5ppm 3 x week suggestions for EI for NO3. However one thing that I did notice compared to others is that my NO3O4 ratio seems *way* off. I think I need to increase my KH2PO4 to get that ratio back to about a 3:1. At nearly 6:1 I am higher than anyone else on that chart.



> * Your Ca & Mg levels look good - likely what I will be targeting for my new RO system. At Ca 33.07 & Mg 11.00 you are not too high. My tap runs Ca 60 & Mg 20 (not saying my plants are great, but they do ok).


I was using Equilibrium to dose my RODI water before adding to the tank. I used the same amounts for Ca & Mg that the Equilibrium was giving me, so not a real scientific way to do it, but it is a good starting point. 



> * Your micro dosing seems ok - I believe you are using Plantex CSM+B? Some of the weekly numbers seemed a little off, but then again it's their mix and it will likely do just fine at the levels you are dosing.


Yes, I am using the Plantex CSM+B and those numbers come right from Rotala.



> Not that it matters to your spreadsheet, but I am a little curious about your experiences with having the FX6 and 406 filters on a 75g tank (lot of flow or just right?). Now granted, I have an AquaTOP CF500 rated at 525gph and a 400gph circulation fan so in reality its not much different that what you have. Personally, with all the fish that I have I would rather run an FX6 on my tank - just don't have the room in the cabinet for it :-(


[/QUOTE]


I have my FX6 setup with the return directly in the center of the tank about 2" below the waterline with the two little vents pointed up at the surface and away from each other. I get nice surface agitation as a result. My 406 is set up pretty much the same way but on the far right side of my tank, but pointed up so that it breaks the surface all the time. So I guess it would seem that the flow is pretty good for what I have.


So here is my updated sheet. I increased my K to almost 21 PPM by doubling my K2SO4 and I increased KH2PO4 in order to bring my NO3O4 ratio around 3:1.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

You've got two things going on. One is an error on the spreadsheet. In the column adding up K dosing, there is an error in the cell that is showing 12.77. Enter the following into that field and it will update properly. I fixed the master version and just uploaded it.

=SUM(F17*C11,F18*C11,F19)










Instead of 12.77 you should get 24.06.

Let me know when you get that fixed. 

That's the easy part. Then we move onto reporting EI dosing vs. reporting Target Dosing.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Here are my numbers: To Create 500 mL of my Macros I am using:
KNO3 - 66.66g, KH2PO4 - 10.15g, K2SO4 - 91g I get the same numbers as you posted if I use 72g of tank water, a 500ml container and 25ml dose
Something of note is at 91g of K2SO4 you may have exceeded the solubility limit of the 500ml of water. Doubling the K2SO4 is likely a bad idea just from the solubility point. 

In my opinion, the down side of Equilibrium is it adds a lot of K to the mix. In your case, a little Equilibrium in the RO water along with your MGSO4 and CASO4 may not be a bad idea - certainly better than dumping a bunch of K2SO4 into your macro mix. Again, just a thought. 

The NO3 / PO4 you have listed in the chart above seem ok (22.62 / 7.68). Personally I think the NO3 is a bit high but will wait to see what others say.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> You've got two things going on. One is an error on the spreadsheet. In the column adding up K dosing, there is an error in the cell that is showing 12.77. Enter the following into that field and it will update properly. I fixed the master version and just uploaded it.
> 
> =SUM(F17*C11,F18*C11,F19)
> 
> ...


Done. Error fixed. But I guess I don't understand the formula. I thought we just added it all up and multiplies by the number of doses per week, in my case - 3. That would give me 38.31 but you seem to not be adding in F16 for some reason.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Immortal1 said:


> Here are my numbers: To Create 500 mL of my Macros I am using:
> KNO3 - 66.66g, KH2PO4 - 10.15g, K2SO4 - 91g I get the same numbers as you posted if I use 72g of tank water, a 500ml container and 25ml dose
> Something of note is at 91g of K2SO4 you may have exceeded the solubility limit of the 500ml of water. Doubling the K2SO4 is likely a bad idea just from the solubility point.
> 
> ...


I think my PO4 number is 3.84 not 7.68, that is why I was wondering about the ratio.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

What is your KH? And where is it coming from? When using Equilibrium, which I have no experience with, guessing it might come from CaCO3? You may need some or KHCO3 or K2CO3. Careful though, adjusting KH can change your PH so potentially your CO2 if dosing per PH drop.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Done. Error fixed. But I guess I don't understand the formula. I thought we just added it all up and multiplies by the number of doses per week, in my case - 3. That would give me 38.31 but you seem to not be adding in F16 for some reason.


Good catch. In my case I don't add up F16 as I don't have any K there. This will fix it.

=SUM(F16*C11, F17*C11,F18*C11,F19)


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

The next thing to cover is how one reports dosing. There are two ways to do it, target dosing and typical EI. And there are two spreadsheets up on the drive, Version 3.0 which is typical EI, and version 3.6 which is based on target dosing. You probably should have started with Version 3.0.

When you report EI dosing you calculate your dosing based on the entire water column. What most don't understand is that is NOT the level you are targeting in the water column. There is something called accumulation that takes place, and your eventual accumulation will depend on your water change percentage. When dosing 15 ppm NO3 and performing weekly 50% water changes, here is what happens.










See the end of week NO3 number....it keeps going up. So if you are dosing 15 ppm NO3 weekly, eventually you will hit your max accumulation which is 30 ppm in the water column. Notice I am not factoring in plant uptake or fish load....but could. That is for later.

But what about someone like me that changes 70% of my water weekly???










Well, instead of 30 ppm my max now is about 22 ppm in the water column.

And what about the guy who only changes 25%....his max accumulation goes all the way up to 60 ppm. Seems like a crazy way to report dosing, but it's the accepted practice.

Some of us wanted to remove the water change % from the equation, so we now like to think in terms of "target dosing". That is referring to the actual water column numbers we are dosing to. Let's say my "target" is 30 ppm NO3. If I remove 50 gallons, I dose the new 50 gallons to 30 ppm. If I remove 25 gallons, I dose the new 25 gallons to 30 ppm. It's always thinking in terms of the actual numbers I want to target in the water column.

Confused? Yeah, me too. But still I will press on! 

Let's look at my dosing........










When I show I dosed 30 ppm NO3, that is based on dosing the actual 70 gallons that I remove. Or in my case 16.44 gm MgNO3 dosed into 70 gallons. So I am dosing to get the water column to 30 ppm NO3. 

But since most still post in EI terms, I recalculate that to the common vernacular which would be EI 50% water change dosing NO3 at 15 ppm weekly.

So in your case, when using the 3.6 version, you should be calculating the actual dosing you are showing based on the 35 gallons that you change. 

For KNO3 that means your 67gm in 500ml 25ml dose based on 35G would be 15.50 ppm NO3. That's what you would enter, then it gets recalculated back to 50% EI equivalent.

OK, no I have to go lay down and put a cold compress on my head!:grin2:


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

schooldazed said:


> What is your KH? And where is it coming from? When using Equilibrium, which I have no experience with, guessing it might come from CaCO3? You may need some or KHCO3 or K2CO3. Careful though, adjusting KH can change your PH so potentially your CO2 if dosing per PH drop.


My current KH is 2ppm and it is coming from Equilibrium which I will no longer be using.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> The next thing to cover is how one reports dosing. There are two ways to do it, target dosing and typical EI. And there are two spreadsheets up on the drive, Version 3.0 which is typical EI, and version 3.6 which is based on target dosing. You probably should have started with Version 3.0.
> 
> When you report EI dosing you calculate your dosing based on the entire water column. What most don't understand is that is NOT the level you are targeting in the water column. There is something called accumulation that takes place, and your eventual accumulation will depend on your water change percentage. When dosing 15 ppm NO3 and performing weekly 50% water changes, here is what happens.
> 
> ...



Wow, my head hurts. I have sooo many questions I am not sure where to start. I thought I might be understanding it but now I think I am lost!!

But let's start here: 

1) When you say you dose your 70 gallons to 30 ppm, do you do that all at once before you put the water in or are you dosing that over the course of the week? 
2) Does tracking the way I dose *change* the amounts that I am going to dose? For example, I was going to dose 7.5ppm NO3 3 x per week. Would I now just dose 15.50 ppm once or is *just* for tracking?
3) On the accumulation, once it hits a certain threshold, do you stop adding in NO3 (or whatever). In your example above if do a 50% water change does that mean at some point I will ahve to change more than 50% to get my NO3 down?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Wow, my head hurts. I have sooo many questions I am not sure where to start. I thought I might be understanding it but now I think I am lost!!
> 
> But let's start here:
> 
> ...


I added some comments in red. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Well, it is clear that I still have a LOT to learn about dosing and tracing. @Greggz I took your advice and downloaded V3.0 for now until I can really understand 3.6 (which I do not as of right now). In the meantime I am going to dose like this:










I did lower K2SO4 since as @Immortal1 pointed out I missed the warning that I was beyond soluble limits in my 500mL container. 

I cannot thank everyone enough for helping me understand this dosing stuff. As I said, I have a lot to learn and I am sure I will have a lot more questions as I move forward, specifically as it relates to the V3.6 calculations and understanding how it relates to what I am doing as well as understanding and adjusting for (if necessary) accumulation and what we have to do to keep track of that.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

MD500_Pilot said:


> (1) When you say you dose your 70 gallons to 30 ppm, do you do that all at once before you put the water in or are you dosing that over the course of the week?


 I have been front end loading all macros for years. One single dose after a water change. As @Immortal1 said above, really depends on fish load/plant load, and is another long discussion. The idea for me is to keep levels as constant as possible all week long.




MD500_Pilot said:


> 2) Does tracking the way I dose *change* the amounts that I am going to dose? For example, I was going to dose 7.5ppm NO3 3 x per week. Would I now just dose 15.50 ppm once or is *just* for tracking?


Does not change dosing, just a matter of semantics and how we track things.




MD500_Pilot said:


> 3) On the accumulation, once it hits a certain threshold, do you stop adding in NO3 (or whatever). In your example above if do a 50% water change does that mean at some point I will ahve to change more than 50% to get my NO3 down?


Like @Immortal1 pointed out above, max accumulation is a mathematically calculated threshold. It's the theoretical max level your concentration of any fert can reach (does not include fish load/plant consumption).

In your case, you will be dosing roughly N:K 23:4:27 weekly. 

In a glass box with no plants/fish and 50% weekly water change, those levels will creep up each week. After about 10 weeks or so you would hit your max accumulation numbers......N:K 46:8:54. Once they hit the max accumulation it can't go higher. 

I haven't posted this one in a while, but sometimes a visual helps. The left side is the ppm level after dosing, the right side is the ppm after a 50% water change.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Well, it is clear that I still have a LOT to learn about dosing and tracing.
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot thank everyone enough for helping me understand this dosing stuff. As I said, I have a lot to learn and I am sure I will have a lot more questions as I move forward, specifically as it relates to the V3.6 calculations and understanding how it relates to what I am doing as well as understanding and adjusting for (if necessary) accumulation and what we have to do to keep track of that.


because @Greggz is a dosing nerd  When your head starts to spin, please keep things in perspective. dosing is "fine tuning" when it comes to running a tank. He has said so before too. 

Its ok to not get it right away. You are making good progress. Theres a wide range of dosing that "generally works." plants are generally forgiving. most of the easy ones will wait for you to figure it out, as long as you're not overrun from algae from too much light, lacking co2, or laxing on maintenance.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Greggz said:


> I haven't posted this one in a while, but sometimes a visual helps. The left side is the ppm level after dosing, the right side is the ppm after a 50% water change.



Funny thing about math - given a 50% water change, your maximum tank concentration before a water change is exactly double your initial dosing :nerd:
Adjust your percentage of water change and your maximum tank concentration changes in a very predictable amount. 

Also, I like your tank coloring Gregg - visual along with factual

Bump:


ipkiss said:


> because @*Greggz* is a dosing nerd  When your head starts to spin, please keep things in perspective. dosing is "fine tuning" when it comes to running a tank. He has said so before too.
> 
> Its ok to not get it right away. You are making good progress. Theres a wide range of dosing that "generally works." plants are generally forgiving. most of the easy ones will wait for you to figure it out, as long as you're not overrun from algae from too much light, lacking co2, or laxing on maintenance.



One other thing that has taken me a LONG time to figure out... Most plants will figure it out and adjust. They just take a lot longer to do so than what we would like. In my earlier days I was trying to change various variables on a weekly basis trying to get things right. I can only imagine what the poor plants were thinking...


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> I have been front end loading all macros for years. One single dose after a water change. As @Immortal1 said above, really depends on fish load/plant load, and is another long discussion. The idea for me is to keep levels as constant as possible all week long.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, starting to make more sense now in that we dose the same but track differently. I understand the chart and that makes sense after reading what @Immortal1 said about it. I guess my next question would pertain to the max accumulation. Will the max accumulation every get so high that it becomes dangerous to the tank and you have to do more than a 50% water change to keep it under control? Or is the idea that the plants will be using up the nutrients and that will never become a problem?

Bump:


ipkiss said:


> because @Greggz is a dosing nerd  When your head starts to spin, please keep things in perspective. dosing is "fine tuning" when it comes to running a tank. He has said so before too.
> 
> Its ok to not get it right away. You are making good progress. Theres a wide range of dosing that "generally works." plants are generally forgiving. most of the easy ones will wait for you to figure it out, as long as you're not overrun from algae from too much light, lacking co2, or laxing on maintenance.


Well, I lowered my PAR from like 145 for 12 hours a day to 82 for 8 hours a day and I am hoping that will help with my algae issue that I was having. After cleaning the tank of algae and BBA and putting it all back together, it seems to be doing better with less light and more CO2 (1.1 pt drop) I am pretty good with maintenance although I was only leaning my filters like every 60 days and I am going to due that monthly from now on as well. 

My goal is to really get to understand the process and procedures in keeping good control of the tank while i have the smaller one as I think we are going to be moving to a 200 gallon in the future. I do not want to do that until I understand what I already have!

Bump: One other quick question for you guys. Since the BBA breakout and cleanup, I had been using Excel with my water change per the label. I was planning on continuing to do that and maybe continuing to dose every couple of days per the label. Any thoughts or issues you see with that?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

MD500_Pilot said:


> OK, starting to make more sense now in that we dose the same but track differently. I understand the chart and that makes sense after reading what @*Immortal1* said about it. I guess my next question would pertain to the max accumulation. Will the max accumulation every get so high that it becomes dangerous to the tank and you have to do more than a 50% water change to keep it under control? Or is the idea that the plants will be using up the nutrients and that will never become a problem? Yes, depending on the item in question, your max accumulation "can" get dangerously high. And there are always the occasion where one decides to do a couple back to back water changes to try and reset the tank - kinda what I am currently working on.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> ...


Something that has worked for me in the past - when doing a water change, if there is an item above the water level with BBA on it I put a few drops of peroxide on the BBA and let it sit for 30ish seconds. In a day or so you will notice the BBA is now red. Read is dead!!!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Immortal1 said:


> Something that has worked for me in the past - when doing a water change, if there is an item above the water level with BBA on it I put a few drops of peroxide on the BBA and let it sit for 30ish seconds. In a day or so you will notice the BBA is now red. Read is dead!!!


Thankfully I seem to have the BBA (and other) algae under control, but it has not been that long since the big tank cleanout. 

Did you have any thoughts on my Seachem Excel question?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Thankfully I seem to have the BBA (and other) algae under control, but it has not been that long since the big tank cleanout.
> 
> Did you have any thoughts on my Seachem Excel question?



I have used Excel in the past for various purposes. With regards to algae, my results have not been very impressive. I have tried double dosing on a daily basis in my 20g low tech tank which has hair algae and it did not seem to do anything. Now, could it help in preventing various algae from returning? Maybe. In my 75g tank I seem to have better luck with algae when I have happy plants. There was a time when I could find some BBA, BGA and GSA in my tank, all at the same time. But, for what I assume is happy plants, the various algae just did not seem to prosper.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Immortal1 said:


> I have used Excel in the past for various purposes. With regards to algae, my results have not been very impressive. I have tried double dosing on a daily basis in my 20g low tech tank which has hair algae and it did not seem to do anything. Now, could it help in preventing various algae from returning? Maybe. In my 75g tank I seem to have better luck with algae when I have happy plants. There was a time when I could find some BBA, BGA and GSA in my tank, all at the same time. But, for what I assume is happy plants, the various algae just did not seem to prosper.


Yeah, I have been reading up a lot on it as it was recommended to me during my BBA outbreak. Since I have it, I think I will use up what I have and then see how it goes from there. I want to plant more plants as well, but I think I want the ones that I have to grow a bit more before I do. What I need to do is find a really good online plant store. I think I am paying way too much at my LFS for plants! Another project for another day!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ipkiss said:


> because @Greggz is a dosing nerd


LOL guilty as charged!:grin2: 

At the risk of getting even nerdier......here we go again.

Bump:


MD500_Pilot said:


> I guess my next question would pertain to the max accumulation. Will the max accumulation every get so high that it becomes dangerous to the tank and you have to do more than a 50% water change to keep it under control? Or is the idea that the plants will be using up the nutrients and that will never become a problem?


One you hit the max accumulation (about 10 weeks) it will never go higher.....at least in theory and independent of fish waste/plant uptake.

Let's say some has an overstocked, overfed tank, generally dirty tank. Then yes, NO3 could be higher than max accumulation. 

And then you need to factor in that plants are using up nutrients. 

In many cases, fish waste and plant uptake pretty much cancel each other out.

That's why I have cells for fish waste and plant uptake in the earlier spreadsheet I posted. But like mentioned above, that is getting deep in the weeds. 

In the end, pay attention to the plants, and adjust dosing for peak health.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> LOL guilty as charged!:grin2:
> 
> At the risk of getting even nerdier......here we go again.
> 
> ...


As always, great advice from everyone. I am moving forward starting today with the new dosing regimen and will keep everyone up to date as it progresses.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Equipment update and wiring cleanup!*

With all this talk about dosing and plants and fish, I haven't updated my journal with any hardware or other updates, so here is a quick update.

I decided to replace my Jaebo doser with a GHL doser that @EdWiser suggested I get. After doing some research on it, I went ahead and got it. The Jaebo, while inexpensive, was giving me trouble and within a month, two of the four doser heads had failed. In the end, it was a waste of $50, at least for me.

So I got the new doser and get it all set up and programmed. It was not as simple as it could have been from a programming standpoint. I had to hijack my youngest daughter's Windows laptop (all OSX and Linux for me) to get the initial programming set up. The wifi AP mode didn't work for some reason and the online app was pretty useless IMHO. 

After I had it all programmed and on the network, I found their software great, but their IOS and web interfaces are pretty lacking compared to their desktop software. So, in the end, I threw up a Windows VM on my Proxmox server which I can get to remotely from anywhere with my VPN and that is how I will use the doser for the foreseeable future. 










Overall the unit is very solid and has some great options (like the stirrer ports) that I may or may not use in the future. 

Anyway as part of the new dosing, tank cleanup (after my bout of BBA) and wanting to dial in my CO2 correctly for my pH, I took some tank water and degassed it with an airstone for a day or two so I could get a good read on my pH. One of our cats really enjoyed the process:










As part of the dosing pump install, I decided to clean up the underside of the tank. I had had the old doser just sitting on a bucket under the tank as I was not really sure how I wanted to have it setup:










So as I was looking below the tank, I decided that it all had to come out, the wiring had to be cleaned up, I wanted a shelf for the doser and basically just a really good tidying up of everything. So my youngest son and I tore into it and got started:










Our audience was not too excited about all the work:











So the first thing we did after taking everything out was to install a small shelf for the doser and Seneye reef:










This placement gives me room for the dosing bottles below the shelf to the left of the FX6 filter and right next to one of my leak detectors:










I have two leak detectors, one next to either of the filters. They are instant. You spill _any_ water on them they alarm immediately. 


Once we had the shelf in place, it was a simple matter of rerouting all of the wiring and getting it all nicely tied up into place. We also relocated some of the equipment.

























In the end, it cleaned up very nicely and as usual, I enjoyed the time spent with my family as well as the tank!

















I do plan on another shelf for the pH controller, I was just going to sit it on the floor for now:









But then I thought about what would happen if one of my filters blew a leak and flooded my pH controller! So now it sits on a small bucket until I get another shelf installed!


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

MD500_Pilot said:


> So I got the new doser and get it all set up and programmed. It was not as simple as it could have been from a programming standpoint. I had to hijack my youngest daughter's Windows laptop (all OSX and Linux for me) to get the initial programming set up. The wifi AP mode didn't work for some reason and the online app was pretty useless IMHO.


Those issues where exactly what I was reading about on some reef forums. I will be interested to see/hear what happens in a couple months with the GHL. 

Cabinet looks nice!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

pauld738 said:


> Those issues where exactly what I was reading about on some reef forums. I will be interested to see/hear what happens in a couple months with the GHL.
> 
> Cabinet looks nice!


If you end up going to one I recommend setting it up straight with the USB cable, then go in and set up the WiFi by bypassing the ad-hoc network garbage they have and this it works awesome.


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## Muscleguy (Feb 16, 2020)

I couldn't get my phosphate levels down enough and therefore tested the tap water which tested positive (can't remember the level). Contacted our local water people (Scottish Water, public ownership) and got a nice email back. They put phosphoric acid in the water so it doesn't leach lead from old pipes (why didn't they do this in Flint?). My chemistry says the phosphoric will test positive in my test kit but won't act as a phosphate in the tank and the lack of hair algae bears this out. 

I age my change water but this will not get rid of something like phosphoric acid. Also if your tap water has chloramine in it (mine doesn't) then you will need a treatment as again ageing will not remove it.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Great hardware update @MD500_Pilot ! Outside the technical aspect, really like the feline helper pics


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## Squisher (Nov 18, 2019)

I'm not sure if I missed it but I'm curious what leak detector you're using and your overall satisfaction with it?

The equipment/wiring clean up looks very nice to me. I run a pretty organized cabinet and find it pleasing to have everything organized. 

Cats seem to go hand in hand with aquariums. Dogs too. All of mine like to sit and watch the aquarium at times, cracks me up.


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

Any questions you have with the GHL software. Just ask me. I have been using the equipment for years now. They are slowing migrating the whole software stack to mobile. The software for windows is easy to use especially with your background. 
Any troubles let me know. I know the owner of the company and all the tech’s.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Squisher said:


> Cats seem to go hand in hand with aquariums.
> All of mine like to sit and watch the aquarium at times, cracks me up.


My wife only performs water changes on her 5 gallon guppy tank because the cats drink it down.
And she wonders why the baby guppies don't don't make it.

The cats just lap them up when the surface gets stirred up. >>>


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

EdWiser said:


> Any questions you have with the GHL software. Just ask me. I have been using the equipment for years now. They are slowing migrating the whole software stack to mobile. The software for windows is easy to use especially with your background.
> Any troubles let me know. I know the owner of the company and all the tech’s.


Well, now that you ask 

I want to set up a dosing schedule that has different dosing amounts based on the day. FOr example, I am dosing 2mL of Excel, three times per week but on Sunday after my water change, I need to dose 37.5ml. Other than manually, I have not found a way to do that in the software. It seems like a pretty basic request but I could not figure it out.

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> My wife only performs water changes on her 5 gallon guppy tank because the cats drink it down.
> And she wonders why the baby guppies don't don't make it.
> 
> The cats just lap them up when the surface gets stirred up. >>>


Yes, we caught one of our cats eating a fish one day and had to make changes to the covers on the tank to prevent that from happening again!

Bump:


Squisher said:


> I'm not sure if I missed it but I'm curious what leak detector you're using and your overall satisfaction with it?
> 
> The equipment/wiring clean up looks very nice to me. I run a pretty organized cabinet and find it pleasing to have everything organized.
> 
> Cats seem to go hand in hand with aquariums. Dogs too. All of mine like to sit and watch the aquarium at times, cracks me up.


I am using the Seneye leak detectors that come with the Seneye reef system. I can tell you, if you get water on them you instantly get an alarm, and it only has to be a drop, just enough to cross any of the contacts on it.

I am currently working on a way to automatically shut down my filters in the event a leak is detected. I already have my filters automated with Alexa and I am working on my own tank management software patterned after my Pool control software that I wrote, just need to make it all work.

As for our cats, I don't know what we would do without them, they are so much part of our family. We have four of them and one dog (my middle sons), one tarantula (mine), a python (my middle daughters) and the fish...we are a family that loves animals of all kinds!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

So my dosing setup is all finished. Three Voss 750mL water bottles later and some bulkhead fittings and got it all tied in and ready to go to work!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

YIKES...just tested my water and *my NO3 is at 80ppm*! I am getting ready to do a 50% water change right now but it has never been this high before, in fact, the highest it has ever been was 20ppm and 10ppm last week before my water change. I did clean all my filters, added Purigen in my FX6 and added 8 new fish. Could that have been the cause of the spike? Should I be concerned? I have been doing 50% water changes weekly and dosing PPS (until today).

Here are the rest of the numbers:
Nitrate - 80ppm
Nitrite - .5 ppm
PO4 - 2ppm
KH - 2ppm
GH - 6ppm
pH - 7.12
EC - 552
TDS - 304
Ammonia - 0.016


*AFTER WATER CHANGE UPDATE*

OK, so I had enough RODI water to do about a 65% water change. We did a really good vacuum on the substrate and cleaned the tank glass real well even though there was no indication of any algae on the glass. I retested Nitrates, KH and GH after the water change. Here were the reading about an hour after the water change:

Nitrate - 20ppm
Nitrite - Did not retest
PO4 - Did not retest
KH - 2ppm
GH - 7ppm
pH - 7.07
EC - 412
TDS - 227
Ammonia - 0.016


So I am not sure if my first reading was bad (although I did it twice). I was just very surprised to see an 80ppm reading on Nitrates!

Here is what my tank looked like for the last week:


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

I personally find it hard to tell the difference between 40 and 80 ppm on the NO3 scale- but if you are down to 20ppm, I would guess you were between 40 and 50 ppm. 

I would just keep an eye on it and over time you will see where things settle in as you learn your dosing (lots of good advice above).

FWIW I stopped dosing excel/glut and only dose micros (front load micros). If you are going to do excel my advice would be to manually add or run the dose for your post water change. You are bound to miss water change one day, and may not want nearly 40mL of excel dumped in on non water change days.

Love the tech and cleaning up the cabinet- another fun aspect of the hobby!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Grobbins48 said:


> I personally find it hard to tell the difference between 40 and 80 ppm on the NO3 scale- but if you are down to 20ppm, I would guess you were between 40 and 50 ppm.


Agreed.

The API kit is known to be off quite a bit at times. Who knows, maybe your NO3 was at 45 ppm, and then you reduced it down to 15 ppm with the water change. 

The best thing is to create some test solutions and then test to see what the kit is reading. It might surprise you. Until you do I would not be making any decisions based on the reading, as it's possible they are off.

I did this a while back in my journal. With the API kit, my 25 ppm sample looked like it could be 40 or even 80 ppm. That's when I switched to Salifert for NO3 testing. 

Here is a link to that discussion.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1020497-greggz-120g-rainbow-fish-tank-new-video-12-28-2019-a-56.html#post10675714


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

Here is how to set up dosing schedules. 
If you have any questions just ask


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The API kit is known to be off quite a bit at times. Who knows, maybe your NO3 was at 45 ppm, and then you reduced it down to 15 ppm with the water change.
> 
> ...



As always, great information. I will look at the link and go from there. Are there any other critical tests that API loses the mark on? Is there a better overall test kit I should be looking at..?

Bump:


EdWiser said:


> https://youtu.be/yGUOIdygbuQ
> 
> Here is how to set up dosing schedules.
> If you have any questions just ask


I watched this but apparently the doser does not support the schedule that I want to run, however as @ Grobbins48 pointed out, I might not want to set Excel on an auto doser for my water changes!

Bump:


Grobbins48 said:


> I personally find it hard to tell the difference between 40 and 80 ppm on the NO3 scale- but if you are down to 20ppm, I would guess you were between 40 and 50 ppm.
> 
> I would just keep an eye on it and over time you will see where things settle in as you learn your dosing (lots of good advice above).
> 
> ...


Very well said. I have the Excel already and have been dosing it during water changes after my BBA bought so I thikn I will at least use it up and and see how it goes.


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

I would try to not use Excel at all. 
You could also just set it to dose a set value manually. You can set the doser to dose an amount on just one day at a certain time. 
I am in the process of totally resetting my aquarium systems right now. I retired so I now have more time to do a reset. Working 7 days a week doesn’t get you much time.  So my dosing system is down right now but I can turning it back on and give you screen shots of how to do it if you want.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

EdWiser said:


> I would try to not use Excel at all.
> You could also just set it to dose a set value manually. You can set the doser to dose an amount on just one day at a certain time.
> I am in the process of totally resetting my aquarium systems right now. I retired so I now have more time to do a reset. Working 7 days a week doesn’t get you much time.  So my dosing system is down right now but I can turning it back on and give you screen shots of how to do it if you want.


Why not use Excel? In reading up about it here and other forums it appears to actually do some good in the tank. That is the only reason I started using it. I don't overdose like a lot of people suggest, I use it like the label says, dosing every other day and on my water change days. 

Yes, they certainly take a lot of time. I spend a lot with mine and try as much as I can to look in my kids that are still at home. My wife would rather garden, but my youngest son really enjoys (or seems to anyway) working with me on it. 

I got the dosing system as I am a pilot and while I can be home for 5 to 8 days at a time, I am also gone 5 to 8 days at a time and it is hard enough trying to get them to do a water change without me there as it is much less dose stuff into the tank. Eventually, I want to move to a 210-gallon tank so I really want to _learn_ how to do things right in my 75 so I can transfer that knowledge (and equipment) to the larger tank.

As far as the dosing schedule, I have that all wired and working. I manually dose the Excel on my WC days and the rest of my Micros/Macros are scheduled automatically. I like the GHL, it is a nice unit!


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

It’s an algaecide. You don’t need it if the tank is in balance. An is only active for a short period of time. People use it as a crutch. Better to learn how to keep the aquarium in balance than to reply on chemicals. That has no other reason to be added to a tank than to correct an imbalance.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

EdWiser said:


> It’s an algaecide. You don’t need it if the tank is in balance. An is only active for a short period of time. People use it as a crutch. Better to learn how to keep the aquarium in balance than to reply on chemicals. That has no other reason to be added to a tank than to correct an imbalance.


Got it!

Thanks


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

EdWiser said:


> It’s an algaecide. You don’t need it if the tank is in balance. An is only active for a short period of time. People use it as a crutch. Better to learn how to keep the aquarium in balance than to reply on chemicals. That has no other reason to be added to a tank than to correct an imbalance.


+1.

In a well balanced tank, Excel is of no consequence. If anything, a detriment.


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## sbo80 (Oct 13, 2019)

some advice others have hinted at: more patience. I read through this thread and it's great you are so interested in the super high tech and looking for "solutions", but this isn't your pool where you can expect a change over night. Nothing about this false nature environment is absolute. You are changing lots of parameters, very quickly. If something goes wrong you will have no idea why. If it goes right, you also will have no idea why. Change less, and wait 3 or 4 weeks before you change something else, or else you'll constantly be fighting it.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Update on Tank Monitoring & Alerting Application*

So while I wait for things to settle down on my tank, I have been working more on my tank monitoring / alerting / automation project. I have a lot of the backend stuff done, with still a lot left to go so I have been spending time on the web interface and thought I would show it to everyone.

Here is the overall page:











It's broken down into three sections. The top section is the visual notification area with a couple of quick toggles buttons to kill my filters:











The middle section is all of my gauges. Still having issues with this series of gauges getting it to display anything below a 1.0 value so I have to continue to work on that still:











And finally, the bottom section which keeps track of various sensors around the house and property letting me know when I need to change the batteries, plus all of my control for various things like logging, how I want to be notified in the event of an issue (supports sms, pushbullet and email), what specific items I want to be alerted about and then the ability to toggle equipment power on and off individually.

Below that I track how much total water has been put into the tank (or will) each water change along with some electrical information and at the bottom graphs of my pH and ammonia.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

WOW, impressive bit of data logging! I'm assuming you are using the Seneye for some of the data input?


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Immortal1 said:


> WOW, impressive bit of data logging! I'm assuming you are using the Seneye for some of the data input?



Yes, I use the Seneye (which has an API) and I use the Atlas Scientific Hydroponics kit which (currently) writes to thingspeak which also has an API. For power control, I use the TPlink managed power bars which we can read and control from within python. The backend is all python, flask (for the web interface) Influx, and MySQL databases.

I still have a long way to go in terms of actual management, but I have all the data logging and front end web stuff done now.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Yes, I use the Seneye (which has an API) and I use the Atlas Scientific Hydroponics kit which (currently) writes to thingspeak which also has an API. For power control, I use the TPlink managed power bars which we can read and control from within python. The backend is all python, flask (for the web interface) Influx, and MySQL databases.
> 
> I still have a long way to go in terms of actual management, but I have all the data logging and front end web stuff done now.



Clearly, your knowledge of API, thingspeak, python, influx & MySQL is significantly greater than my knowledge (which is likely minimal, at best). 

But, as my wife has already pointed out, your data logging and management is something I would very much enjoy! Could just image having an old laptop buried behind something with a laptop sized screen next to the fish tanks displaying all the various data.


Have to admit, I was thrilled to finally figure out I could turn on/off various things at home while I was at work (smart plugs/strips).


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Immortal1 said:


> Clearly, your knowledge of API, thingspeak, python, influx & MySQL is significantly greater than my knowledge (which is likely minimal, at best).
> 
> But, as my wife has already pointed out, your data logging and management is something I would very much enjoy! Could just image having an old laptop buried behind something with a laptop sized screen next to the fish tanks displaying all the various data.
> 
> ...


I will be putting everything on my GitHub account if you want to download it and play with it!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Tank Monitor / Controller Update*

Just a quick update. Since I don't have a reliable or inexpensive way to test for KH, GH and PO4 automatically, I needed a way to quickly enter the data into the database that would be easy for my wife or kids to do if I was not around. I use Flask as my front-end system to my tank controller so it was pretty easy to create some forms and tie it into the InfluxDB using flask and WTF-Forms for Flask.

This way the data can still be shown on my dashboard:


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Tank Update*

Well I have been out on flight rotation so my wonderful family had to do my normal water change. So far everything is looking good. No signs of any type of algae and my plants seem to be doing very well. I am dosing EI and doing a 50% water change every week and that seems to be working well I think I am going to go ahead and plant some more plants, for some reason I just love a lot of plants!

Does anyone have any good online resources for purchasing plants that they trust? My LFS does not ever really seem to have much in stock. 

I am continuing to work on my tank management software and have started to build a module to do fully automated water changes sans the gravel vac. Basically by installed a highly accurate liquid tape sensor (pictures below) I can measure the water level in the tank extremely accurately. With a in and an out water source set up, I hit a button, the outflow pump starts and drains the tank to a preset amount and then stops. The refill pump then starts and refills the tank with preconditioned RODI water. I would never do this unattended unless the first 100 times went well, but it gives me a cool module to work on for my management software.

I am also working on getting complete integration with my TP link smart outlets so I can control them via my app. I am making good progress but decided to buy another one just to play with on the programming side instead of beating up the equipment on my tank as I test out making it talk correctly. There are several people that have repos to do this but frankly lack any kind of meaningful documentation so it is a bit of a pain trying to get it all figured out.

This is the eTape that I have used on several products:










I also use a non-contact sensor on my pool acid tank and it works great as well:










And at only $5 each they would be a great addition to my dosing system as a backup to the doser keeping track of how much Micros and Macros they have dosed. 

Here is how the tank is looking today. Another water change coming on Sunday!!


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

The classifieds/WTB on this forum are excellent. Often times you get extras thrown in which can be fun.

Other than that, I've used Buceplant.com and AquaticArts.com with good success.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

pauld738 said:


> The classifieds/WTB on this forum are excellent. Often times you get extras thrown in which can be fun.
> 
> Other than that, I've used Buceplant.com and AquaticArts.com with good success.


Thank You, I guess I didn't realize we have a marketplace here, I will check there first. And (of course) in perusing around I see someone asked pretty much the exact same question already


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

tank is looking good!


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Thank You, I guess I didn't realize we have a marketplace here, I will check there first. And (of course) in perusing around I see someone asked pretty much the exact same question already


I did mix my answer up ever so slightly. [emoji38]

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

That eTape and those non contact sensors are pretty cool - would never have thought of using something like those in an aquarium setup. Or, the RODI storage tank for the matter.
As for your tank - looking good! Nice to hear your "helpers" were able to take care of things while you are away.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Clearly, your knowledge of API, thingspeak, python, influx & MySQL is significantly greater than my knowledge (which is likely minimal, at best).
> 
> But, as my wife has already pointed out, your data logging and management is something I would very much enjoy! Could just image having an old laptop buried behind something with a laptop sized screen next to the fish tanks displaying all the various data.
> 
> ...


API is an "application programming interface".


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Immortal1 said:


> That eTape and those non contact sensors are pretty cool - would never have thought of using something like those in an aquarium setup. Or, the RODI storage tank for the matter.
> As for your tank - looking good! Nice to hear your "helpers" were able to take care of things while you are away.


Yeah, the advice I have gotten here has been invaluable and has really helped get my tank back on track and my while the tank is definitely "my" project/thing, the family does not mind helping out when necessary.

My youngest son told me today that he wants to start learning to code in python so he can help me with the tank management project.


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## mkodom1 (May 20, 2019)

I'm super inspired by your work. I might dabble in a tank computer myself. I use rasberry Pi's at work to build windows iot apps. Always wanted a reason to use one in the house. As a software engineer I would love to get my hands on the stuff your using for the automatic measurements of tank parameters. 

I'm going to start injecting co2 Into my 75 after seeing your sucess.

Keep it coming !!


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Well I have been out on flight rotation so my wonderful family had to do my normal water change. So far everything is looking good. No signs of any type of algae and my plants seem to be doing very well. I am dosing EI and doing a 50% water change every week and that seems to be working well I think I am going to go ahead and plant some more plants, for some reason I just love a lot of plants!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The aquarium is looking good !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Matt69 said:


> The aquarium is looking good !



Thank you Matt!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Automation Update*

Hey Everyone - 

It has been a little bit since I have added to my journal so I thought I would bring you up to date on my automation project. I have been making a lot of progress with the overall system, integrating power control, full system notification by system and type of notifications, utilizing energy reading to verify equipment operation as opposed to just set state. I have cleaned up the interface a little bit and given notifications and logging their own page.

*Here is the current layout of the main page:*









At the very top, you can see the overall system status as well as toggle power to the specific equipment.




This is my notifications page. If you have the main systems notifications disabled, it also disables being able
to manage any notifications. 











Once you turn on overall system notifications, you now have a button for managing every type of 
notification (currently SMS, Pushbullet and Email).












Click the "Edit Notifications" button and you can fine-tune every single notification based on each 
system and each notification type.











All data is stored in a MySql/Percona database.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Tank and Plant Update*

In keeping with the excellent advice I have received here, I have made no real changes to how I am managing my tank, that is to say I have been sticking with the EI method of dosing that I started a bit ago, making weekly 50% RODI water changes and cleaning the tank. I have not changed my dosing or anything for a while and so far things are looking very healthy. 

I wanted to add more plants, eventually a lot more, and I decided to buy from someone here on the Planted Tank. So thanks to @burr740 I was able to add Oldenlandia salzmannii, Limnophila aromatica and Rotala macrandra 'variegated' to my tank today. It is really starting to look very nice:


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

MD500_Pilot said:


> In keeping with the excellent advice I have received here, I have made no real changes to how I am managing my tank, that is to say I have been sticking with the EI method of dosing that I started a bit ago, making weekly 50% RODI water changes and cleaning the tank. I have not changed my dosing or anything for a while and so far things are looking very healthy.
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to add more plants, eventually a lot more, and I decided to buy from someone here on the Planted Tank. So thanks to @burr740 I was able to add Oldenlandia salzmannii, Limnophila aromatica and Rotala macrandra 'variegated' to my tank today. It is really starting to look very nice:




Aquarium is looking really nice. [emoji106] 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Matt69 said:


> Aquarium is looking really nice. [emoji106]


Thank You @Matt69, I am going to continue to add more plants and see how well it does!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*A little tree trimming*

Well in my zeal for lots and lots of big plants I overdid it by not trimming my plants correctly and now have roots and whatnot growing out the side of my plants. So thanks to more great advice here, it was time to aggressively trim my plants and clean things up a bit. Here are the before and after shots:


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Well in my zeal for lots and lots of big plants I overdid it by not trimming my plants correctly and now have roots and whatnot growing out the side of my plants. So thanks to more great advice here, it was time to aggressively trim my plants and clean things up a bit. Here are the before and after shots:



Wow you give that tank a hair cut. [emoji106] 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Matt69 said:


> Wow you give that tank a hair cut. [emoji106]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks good I think, now I will keep it trimmed up as I go!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Tank Update - More plants, more fish and more wiring....*

So it has been a little bit since I updated my tank journal so I figured today would be a good day. I have added a few more plants to the tank and a few more fish. I think I am getting the tank looking how I like it, now I just need to keep things under control. I tend to get a little bit of algae on some of my probe holders still and I don't really know why. So weekly when I do my water changes I have been pulling out anything that has any algae on it and cleaning it up real good. I think the fish do a good job of keeping it off the tank and with my limited light level and time I think overall it's doing well, just have to keep on top of the little things. 

So we live in a brick home that really has some bad wifi coverage areas due to the ranch-style layout with two different "wings". So as part of the plan to upgrade my tank to the 210-gallon tank and part of that process is and implement a really cool (IMHO) semi-automated water change system. 

This system will store used fish tank water in an IBC tote and will allow my wife to use the old fish tank water to irrigate her garden so long as there is water in the tank. When the water runs out, the irrigation system will automatically switch to street water. Part of the overall process is to teach my youngest son Python programming in the process. We will be using a raspberry pi and a series of microcontrollers (Adafruit Feathers) to do all of the heavy lifting. Because of where everything will be placed, it was necessary to extend the wifi signal and I really have using wifi extenders, so I drafted my kids to get up in the attic with me and we ran hard ethernet all the way to the far side of the house so we can add another Ubiquiti Unifi HD AP!

They loved the experience, almost as much as they love going to Home Depot with me 




























Thankfully no one fell through the ceiling this time (twice I have had my kids helping me in the attic and have had to hire a drywall person to fix the results! Needless to say my wife was not pleased with any of us!

Anyway, as anyone that has worked with Pis or systems in general knows, you have to have a good motd (message of the day) for when you log in to the system so you know you are on the right computer, same with us. So my kids and I sat down and designed a very nice, colorful MOTD that my wife will never really see, but at least it looks cool. We have named the main Raspbery Pi that will be running the system GardenPi:










Anyway, back to the tank, I think it is looking great, still working on a little plant issue with the plants in front. I added a few more plants and have been keeping up with 60% water changes each week. Water parameters from the last water change were:

Nitrate (no3): 25 ppm
Nitrite (no2): 0 ppm
kH: 1 ppm
gH: 11 ppm
po4: 3 ppm
Ammonia (nh3): .012 ppm (zero on the test kit, this is measures by Seneye Ammonia sensor)
Temp: 82 Degrees
pH: 6.0 (Injected Tank)


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Looks like the plants are really starting to take off. 

Better keep the scissors sharpened..........next will be a lot of trimming.

Nice work and keep the updates coming.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Looks like you had some very capable hired help for your attic work 
Outfitted my house with plenty of CAT5 in the past. These days my screaming ASUS Router is more than loud enough, LOL
Tank is definitely looking good!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Immortal1 said:


> Looks like you had some very capable hired help for your attic work
> Outfitted my house with plenty of CAT5 in the past. These days my screaming ASUS Router is more than loud enough, LOL
> Tank is definitely looking good!


Yeah, they may complain a bit, but they are always ready and willing to help, and always with a smile 

We use Ubiquiti APs here but as I said we have a large brick home and it was very difficult to get CAT6 where we needed it for extra APs so we just basically lived with some fringe coverage in far corners of the house. With the new system, we are building I need 100% access all of the time so I bit the bullet and ran the had line all the way across the entire house via the attic out some conduit, across 40' of our backyard and into the new shed where I will be housing most of the control system for our tank water change system and garden irrigation. I will throw in a small POE switch, another Unifi AP and have both hardwired ethernet (which I prefer for any server related projects) as well as complete wifi coverage now.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

lol good use of child labor


I love the idea of the semi automatic water change. 
you're using solenoids to drain the water out of the tank and then using direct city water?
what filtration are you using for the city water?


I'm on the same boat about doing the automatic water change but hate the idea of wasting water for an RO unit and hate dumping aquarium water into the drain when it can go to a garden. 
Excited to see what you come up with with the kids


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

@monkeyruler90

My current tank is 100% manual but on my new tank my process will semi-automatic and be as follows, assuming that I have not missed anything crucial in my thought process. I am still working on the mechanics and programmatic flow of the system. I am hugh proponent of automation and have fully automated my pool controls and sent the last five years fine tuning my pool control software that I wrote. So our hydroponics and fish tank system were the next obvious system to automate. 

I am adding a 3/4" PVC pipe to my new tank that will go down to the lowest level where I want my water change to be at, say 70%. That pipe will be connected to a pump via a gate or ball valve. When I am ready to do my water change, I open the gate/ball valve and then push the WC button on my system web interface. My return pump shuts down automatically and then another pump (or maybe the return pump with an automatic outflow diverter) pumps out enough water until my water level sensor kicks it off. 

In the event my water level sensor (or any other part of my system fails) the water will only go to the lowest level set by my pvc pipe. This water is pumped into an IBC tank and is then used to water our garden via another python program my son and I are working on.

Once the water has been drained, another small pumps kicks on and pumps remineralized RODI water (also housed in an IBC tank) into my sump, and my return pumps kicks on and pumps this back into the tank again until it hits a 'high' water level. If that fails, I am standing by the tank to shut it off manually.

That is my current though, but I am still working on the layout of valves, etc. I am investing in an Iwaki MD-100RLT pump so I am in the process of designing a water manifild system with automatic pool valves to switch the input and output of the pump so no matter what water movement I need to make, I can use just one single pump to do it.

I am open to ideas, suggestions or criticisms


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*New Water Plumbing / Pump / Chiller Layout*

So I live in Arizona where it gets 115 degrees in the summer. As a result, I am going to need a chiller for our tank. But we also do our own gardening and we want to use all of the fish water to water our plants. We currently do that by hand, but we recently used all this extra time with the kids out of school to trench up our yards and build a dedicated garden irrigation system complete with six different zones and the ability to feed that irrigation system with either stored old fish tank water or street water depending on the availability of old fish tank water. We also just decided that we were going to convert part of our yard into a hydroponics solution. For water changes, we have a 330-gallon IBC tote where we make and store remineralized RODI water.

I am a very DIY person and drag my family along for the ride. I wrote my own open-source pool control software, my son and I are writing our garden irrigation software and I have my own tank management and monitoring software completed already with full power control of all components. I now want to extend the automation to include semi-automatic water changes and the ability to utilize a single chiller to chill my tank, my hydroponic nutrient solution and my remineralized RODI water for water changes. I also need the ability to recirculate water in my nutrient tank and my RODI tank as well and then be able to pump RODI water back into the tank after my water change. So I designed a solution that I think meets all of those needs and I was hoping some of the more savvy folks here could look it over for any flaws that I may have missed. 

Few things to note:
1) From my tank, I will have gate valves on my two bean-animal siphon lines as well as my water change line. The bean animal valves will be used to tune that system and the gate valve on the water change line will be manually opened when I need to do a water change to prevent a failure of my software or pumps to create a full siphon or otherwise drain my tank. Hence the "semi-automatic" part of the water change process. Other lines may also have gate valves to help adjust flows as needed. This is not nor ever will be a "fully automated" water change system, it will always be manually run.

2) One way valves will be installed where necessary to prevent loss of siphon as well as reverse water flow in the manifolds.

3) I am using two different size pumps. The main tank pump is a 100 since I need the head pressure capability on that pump to get back to the tank. The second pump is all "ground level" water movement with much lower head pressure so I have selected the 70 for that job.

4) After talking in-depth with the folks at Penguin and Teco, I have selected a 1HP Penguin chiller which given my requirements should provide more than enough heat rejection capacity. Based on a total of around 700 gallons (210 for the tank, 50 for the sump, 300 for the water change tank (three weeks worth of water changes / makeup water) and 100 gallons of nutrient solution) and the Phoenix heat, they said I could get by with a 1/2 to 3/4 HP chiller, so I figured a 1HP would be the best solution. I would rather have it too big, then too little. Both companies claim their 1HP units can handle 1000 gallons with a 30-degree Δ-t. Teco actually says they can do a 9-degree Δ-t at close to 1600 gallons and a whopping 39-degree Δ-t ar 400 gallons. Penguin is much more conservative. Programmatically I will always give preference to the tank first then to other temperature reduction needs. 

I look forward to feedback!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

And I thought some of my projects were a bit nuts - this is gonna be fun!!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Immortal1 said:


> And I thought some of my projects were a bit nuts - this is gonna be fun!!


And the setup and coding have already begun


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Well, I have enough of the back end coding done that I now need to move towards the front end interface to start tying things together and see what else I need to do. I am not a web designer and so doing front end work is very difficult for me. I am trying my hardest to make the front end mobile user friendly to allow my wife control while she is in the garden as opposed to having to use her laptop and still making it look clean and neat.










I gave the tank another needed haircut, replanting the stems that I cut off to continue to add to the plant load in the tank. I am really happy so far with how the plants are progressing and the tank overall is looking a lot better than before. We added some new plants and the rest of them are really taking off:

Before:









Today:











Most of the plants seem to be doing very well, but a couple of them just don't look like they are doing well. I am still trying to research what may be the cause of the issues, but so far have not come on any ideas or changes that might make them look any better. I just don't get it. Most of our plants look fantastic but there are a few that look like they have algae on them. The tank has zero algae anywhere else that I can find but it seems to like a few of the plants.












On my front plants I do have to say that they are doing much better after pulling them out of the substrate a bit thanks to a recommendation by @DaveKS here. They have really started to fill out well although they still have what 'appears' to be algae on the bottom leaves:

Before:









Today:













We added a few more fish but I lost a couple of the new fish within days of adding them, but none of the other fish and all of my tank/water parameters were spot on where they should be. In talking to my LFS they did say that they tend to keep their fish in pretty hard water and maybe I did not allow enough time for them to acclimate to my tank before putting them in with the rest of the fish. I typically add the fish to a container and over 30 to 60 minutes add a small amount of my tank water to the same container allowing the fish to sit before moving them into the tank. this has always worked well, but I did lose three guppies in the process. Not happy about that at all!

We added our most expensive fish ever a couple of weeks ago - a Synodontis Aquarium Catfish, he was something like $20 and they said he would do well in a planted tank. He hangs out in the plants and does not come out much but he is still fun to watch when he is out. Not a very good picture, but he is a bit camera shy:


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

The algae on old weak leaves not going to go away, just trim them off. As long as new leaves are staying fresh and clean your on the right path. The oldest and weakest leaves are always most vulnerable.

Planting depth on crown plants and spacing of stems plants is just one of little details that planted tank keepers learn over time.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

DaveKS said:


> The algae on old weak leaves not going to go away, just trim them off. As long as new leaves are staying fresh and clean your on the right path. The oldest and weakest leaves are always most vulnerable.
> 
> Planting depth on crown plants and spacing of stems plants is just one of little details that planted tank keepers learn over time.


Perfect, I am doing a water change today so I will go ahead and trim those leaves off....


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Hey Everyone - I just thought I would check in with an update. In keeping with some very good advice here, I have made zero changes to my dosing, cleaning and water change patterns to keep things stable with my tank and to see what (if anything) I really need to change. The tank continue to grow very fast and require a lot of trimming. I thought I was trimming too much but as it turns out , it all grows back so fast it is just amazing:




















So my son and I took several hours yesterday cleaning up and trimming up the tank and then doing our weekly water change. I am still doing about 60% a week with dosed RODI and with a filter cleanout once per month for both filters. 




















In other news, in the end, my daughters opted for hamsters instead of fish so my son who helps with the tank ended up with the new 5-gallon tank in his room. I used roughly 50% new and 50% existing substrate from our 75-gallon tank, plants from the 75-gallon and bio-media out of our canister filter from the tank. We then filled the tank with dosed RODI and immediately added 7 small, inexpensive fish. None of them have died as of yet, so I think using existing stuff actually prevented the need to cycle the tank in a traditional manner. He is very happy. We are going to run the tank for a few months with the existing fish before moving them to the main tank and getting the fish he really wants, however, he is not sure that that is going to be right now.




















On the programming front, I am making great progress on our Hydroponic/Irrigation control system. The backend is Python, SQLAlchemy (accessing MySQL and InfluxDB), Flask, Apache and thousands of lines of CSS. I have most of the major core irrigation framework completed and have been working on refactoring, learning SQLAlchemy, dealing with all the nuances of actually scheduling and running specific jobs, conflicting schedule management, and instant feedback using Flask Flash messages and css. I have been playing around with how I want to manage scheduled jobs and spent a lot of time working on and setting up APScheduler and interfacing Neptune (my control software) with it, and overall job management. It is an extremely robust scheduling platform and I am leaning towards its use as opposed to say a crontab style approach, but I am still playing around with my various options. Since all of my jobs are stored in a MySQL database, plugging in the scheduling end should be pretty simple once I decide which direction to go.

I spent a lot of time on system management and error checking around the availability of old fish tank water stored in a 300-gallon IBC tote. This includes pump management, zone management, water availability both before and during a scheduled job, the best way to monitor water levels in a 300-gallon tote, automation of selecting the appropriate water source, tracking overall, and per-zone water usage and more. Right now the system is lightning fast as it utilizes flask, apache, and almost 100% of the button changes and interactions are done via CSS as opposed to images of buttons. The overall design is based completely around using a cell phone web browser as it's the interface. Since I have zero experience writing apps for cell phones, I am sticking with a web-based approach. 

As I shared with you before, this system will also be running my tank water change and chiller systems albeit not in a 'fully automated' mode, just as a system manager. The goal will be to automate the chiller operation between the fish tank (as primary), our RODI storage tank, and our Hydroponic solution tank. I have selected a Penguin chiller, shooting for about 1.5HP after talking with them and discussing overall heat rejection and delta-T loads. My only concern at this point is switching between chilling say our hydroponic solution with all of the nutrients the plants need and going back to chilling the fish tank water. Right now I am working on the algorithm that will never switch directly from hydroponic chilling to tank chilling but rather would "flush" the lines with RODI water back into my hydroponic tank before switching. I am likely overthinking the problem and the solution, but hey, I have time on my hands so why not!! The problem is that I really cannot find an answer to if there would be an issue so I am not going to take a chance. I am working on a chiller class that will manage everything and prevents the possibility of pumping a hydroponic solution into my fish tank during the chilling process.

It will semi-automate the water change process by managing all of my filters, skimmers, UV-lights, and any other equipment that needs to be shut down during the water change process. I will have to manually open a valve that allows water to be pumped from the tank by the water change process and I already have most of the electrical management interface up and running on my current tank control project. Regardless of how automated I make it, someone will always be there to watch over the process so we don't kill our beloved pets. 

Well, I am sure this was way more than people wanted to read, so here are some screenshots and I will leave you with that. I really enjoy having this forum to read and post to and I hope everyone is doing well during this pandemic.


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

Tanks doing great, kinda exited to see your aquarium evolve. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Matt69 said:


> Tanks doing great, kinda exited to see your aquarium evolve.


Thanks Matt - 

Thanks to some great advice from the folks here it is really doing amazing. I am not making any changes right now in how I do things or what I am dosing, etc and things really seem to be growing well and the fish are all happy! Eventually we are moving to a 210 gallon tank and this is all great experience for that move.


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Thanks Matt -
> 
> Thanks to some great advice from the folks here it is really doing amazing. I am not making any changes right now in how I do things or what I am dosing, etc and things really seem to be growing well and the fish are all happy! Eventually we are moving to a 210 gallon tank and this is all great experience for that move.



Can’t wait


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Matt69 said:


> Can’t wait
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


x2 - should be a fun transition


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Immortal1 said:


> x2 - should be a fun transition


Well, I am more than a little worried about the big change, but like everything, I am sure it will be a learning curve.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Automated Water Change Tank Management Update*

Hey Everyone - 

I thought I would give you an update on where I am at with my project to automate my tank water changes which tie into the Garden and Hydroponic management system I am building for my wife.

My project is broken into three separate parts: Tank, Garden, and Hydroponic. We will be utilizing our old fish tank water as a water source for our garden but then have the ability to switch to street water when I run out of fish water. Since I live in Phoenix, I need a chiller for my tank, my RODI water change water, and our hydroponic nutrient solution. Since I did not want to buy three chillers, I have designed a system to allow all three systems the ability to use an oversized penguin chiller. I can also recirculate all the water in all of the tanks, purge the water from the lines when switching from hydroponic to tank chilling, do semi-automated water changes and manage all of the power for all of the pumps, chillers, etc. 

So far I am about 85% of the way with the power and Garden parts of the programming. It is almost entirely done in Python and designed to be run from the touch screen on the controller enclosure or via your cell. Once I have that all up and running I will add in the hydroponics and then finally the fish tank since I won't need that until we get our new big tank.

Here is the current system overview:









This is what it looks like laid out on the bench. This is about 95% of all of the electronics needed to complete the project:









I am using all solid-state relays, these are for the 24V AC valves, I use much larger 40A solid state relays for the 120V outlets:


















The enclosure electrical is pretty much done as well, it was a real chore to get the outlets, etc installed. In the end, a hot razor blade did the job best:










































And this is a small touch screen that will be mounted on the front of the enclosure for local control:









































I still have a long way to go programmatically, but we can implement it once I have it all built and then I can continue to code the additional modules as needed.


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## Matt69 (Jul 9, 2017)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Hey Everyone -
> 
> I thought I would give you an update on where I am at with my project to automate my tank water changes which tie into the Garden and Hydroponic management system I am building for my wife.
> 
> ...



Very nice 
All I have is a 5 gallon bucket[emoji3525]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Never mind the tank, I am following more lately for the Tech. Thanks for walking us through, you've given me some awesome ideas and I think with my final project, this would come in handy!

Gary


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Crazygar said:


> Never mind the tank, I am following more lately for the Tech. Thanks for walking us through, you've given me some awesome ideas and I think with my final project, this would come in handy!
> 
> Gary


Thanks Gary - I love mixing the tech in with the tank and while the system is not 100% specific to the tank, it will be tied in so I figured I would share it here. Once I roll out v1 it will be on my github page if you are interested in looking at the code.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

great progress update! looks like everything is coming together!

Can't wait till you have the new tank set up!

PS. my passion was also to mix my fish tank with the aquaponics set up I had in mind. When I move into a bigger place I'll definitely try and make it happen


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

MD500_Pilot said:


> Hey Everyone -
> 
> I thought I would give you an update on where I am at with my project to automate my tank water changes which tie into the Garden and Hydroponic management system I am building for my wife.
> 
> ...


Wow. This looks like the type of project I'd like to do if I had the time, space, and money (and if I was much smarter). I'm interested in your hydro system-- are you using flood/drain? Is that where the hydroponic recirculation line returns from? What are you growing with the hydro system?

I'm also wondering why you're recirculating the water through the pumps instead of just keeping them mixed with an air pump and air stone. Is a pump more efficient?


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

gjcarew said:


> Wow. This looks like the type of project I'd like to do if I had the time, space, and money (and if I was much smarter). I'm interested in your hydro system-- are you using flood/drain? Is that where the hydroponic recirculation line returns from? What are you growing with the hydro system?
> 
> I'm also wondering why you're recirculating the water through the pumps instead of just keeping them mixed with an air pump and air stone. Is a pump more efficient?


Not actually sure what we will be growing yet, I wanted to get the system up and running first. After the research, the flood/drain system seems the best for us. We are looking at a lot of lettuce, strawberries, tomatoes, etc. Also, we are in phoenix so I have to have lines in place for the chiller anyway so I figured I could do recirculation as well with just a few more valves which are pretty cheap and have the return to the tank on a type of spray bar so I get oxygen and recirculation at the same time.

We have a large garden already and have just installed a new aquapot system in the house so we are excited to do outdoor hydroponics and try our hand at that as well!


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

> Once I roll out v1 it will be on my github page if you are interested in looking at the code


Oh hell yeah. I would love to see the inner works. Thanks for making it available. 

From what I saw so far, it looks pretty straightforward, as always nothing is good unless you have a plan. And I love it when a plan comes together

As always, enjoy the updates!

Gary


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Crazygar said:


> Oh hell yeah. I would love to see the inner works. Thanks for making it available.
> 
> From what I saw so far, it looks pretty straightforward, as always nothing is good unless you have a plan. And I love it when a plan comes together
> 
> ...


Yeah, its almost all python, SQALchemy/MySQL8/Influx and Flask. I will use Flask-Ask for the Alexa integration


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Awesome! Thanks!

Gary


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Get rid of my Gromies...? They are devistating my plants...*

So my wife bought three gromies and little did we know that they appear to be avid vegetarians!! They have completely devastated some nice plants that I had ..

Here you can see the plants in the direct center, about mid tank:










Here is what was left of them today:









Looks like they started at the bottom and worked their way up. 

Is there any way to keep them from destroying my plants or do they need to go...?

Thanks


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Ouch!


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Unfortunately there is no way to stop them from eating the plants, they may have to be rehomed. 

Gary


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## PlantedManFromSA (Jul 10, 2019)

Sorry to pop in like this... Awesome looking tank !!!!

As for the grommies munching on your plants.. try giving them sperulina flakes or blanched vegetables like peas or zucchini. Once they get plant based foods in their diet it should minimize their need for your tasty plants.
I've got beunos aires and columbian tetras who can destroy a planted tank very quickly, they hardly touch my plants as long as I ensure they have a plant based diet.

Hope this helps !!


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

Thanks, Everyone for the info and advice - it is very frustrating. My LFS was told we had a planted tank and said nothing about the fact that these little guys would go after the plants. Fortunately, we have family with a tank that has fake plants and they are going to take them.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

@MD500_Pilot, love the tank and the tech and the cats! I just finished reading your journal from post 1. You have learned a lot and come a long way in 6 months! The tank looks great!

And now I want some of these toys. I dabble in Python, and I have a long (sometimes painful) history with MySQL. I will definitely check out your repo.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Fish Tank Monitor and Control V1 up on Github*

As part of the overall process of automating my tank as much as possible, I have finally put V1.0.0 of my Fish Tank Monitor and Control up on Github HERE. 

The system is designed to monitor(m), record(r) and provide system notifications on the following parameters:


Temperature (m, r, n)
pH (m, r, n)
Toxic Free Ammonia (NH3) (m, r, n)
Bound Ammonix (NH4) (m, r)
O2 Potential (m, r)
Electrical Conductivity in μS/cm (m, r, n)
Total Disolved Solids in ppm (m, r, n)
PAR (m, r)
LUX (m, r)
Kelvin (m, r)

The system is also designed to allow manual entry of the following parameters:


GH (r)
KH (r)
PO4 (r)

The system allows full power control of the following devices:


Fluval FX6 Filter
Fluval 406 Filter
CO2 Injection System
Air Pump
UV Light

Notifications can be done via E-Mail, SMS, or Pushbullet and are fully customizable. 

Main Screen









Notification Management









System Logging









Eventually, when I complete my water automation, the tank control part of it will live here as well.


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## MD500_Pilot (Dec 28, 2019)

*Neptune / GardenPi Update*

Hey Everyone - 

It's been a bit of time since I last posted, have been lurking but putting a ton of work into my tank/irrigation/hydroponic/aquaponic/RODI/environmental monitoring platform. In the end, after figuring everything out my system ended up configured for:

27 Water Zones utilizing standard sprinkler 24V AC sprinkler Valves (2A Solid State Relays)
8 Power Zones (40A Solid State Relays) (3 * Iwaki MD-70RLT Pumps, 1 * High Output Commercial pump for fish water to irrigation, 1 * 1.5HP Chiller, 1 * 120V-24V AC Transformer for Sprinkler valves, 2 * User Available Circuits)
6 Temperature Zones (DS18B20 via OneWire Bus)
4 Water Tank Ultra Sonic Level Detectors (3 Tanks and 1 Sump) (Provides the number of gallons in the tanks, used for informational/display purposes only)
4 Water Tank Non-Contact Liquid Level Sensors (3 Tanks and 1 Sump) (Amazingly accurate non-contact sensor, utilized for decision-making processes)
System Sensors to include: System Enclosure (Temperature, Humidity and Barometric pressure via BME280), 5V Bus Current, Voltage & Power & DC Shunt Voltage, 120V Voltage & Current


*BEFORE:*










*BUILD:*








Bottom Tray - 120V AC Circuits/Relays/Transformers/Fans









Upper Tray - Rpi4, 32 Solid State Relays, I2C & 1-Wire Busses, Sonar & Non-Contact controllers









Wiring connectors for all zones, temp probes, sonar & non-contact + Ethernet









Electrical outlets for power zones









External Box for 5 Temp sensors









Bottom of Temp Probe Box









External box for Irrigation Zones 1-6 & Fresh/Fish Water Supply valves









Up & Running with 7" Touchscreen control & custom gardenPi Face



The software that drives this portion is just about ready on release V1.0 It won't have everything in it but it does have all of the Irrigation Zone Control,
Fresh and Fish water supply control, all environmental sensors (temp, humidity, AC & DC power) as well as all of the power zone controls and scheduling for 
all zones. 

I am very excited as this is the system that will be tied into my semi-automatic water changes alone with circulation/chilling and I just wanted to share an update
with everyone. Once I am done with V1.0 I will be posting it on my github in case anyone is interested in taking a look at it. I am working on full documentation
for Version 1.0 now as well.










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