# Eco complete or flourite and other questions



## H2OLOVER (Apr 29, 2010)

Eco complete or flourite

Can someone show me a good link on how to do a mineralized top soil that looks like pea gravel instead of mud

What's a good gravel for raising crystal reds

Can I use a heating cable with mineralized top soil.


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## Danh Vu (Jul 3, 2010)

Both flourite and ecocomplete are inert. They just hold plants in place and give them somewhere to grow roots. Eco complete is easier to plant with (imo) and it is not hard to rinse. Flourite is a pita to clean and plant in. 

Why not put pea gravel on top of mts?


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## awight (Aug 21, 2010)

Those questions are all over the place! What is it that you're trying to do exactly?


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## Danh Vu (Jul 3, 2010)

^lol, exactly what I thought


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

MIneralized topsoil is never a consistency other than "mud". If it is a gravel-like consistency it isn't MTS. It has to be covered with an inch or more of a more gravel-like substrate, but the only advantage of one substrate over another would be the CEC. Flourite has a high CEC, and I think Eco Complete does too, but possibly not as high. Then, there is personal preference, for what the substrate looks like - some people like the appearance of one more than another.

You can use a heating cable with any substrate, but it won't provide any worthwhile benefit with any substrate. I doubt it doing any harm either.


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## H2OLOVER (Apr 29, 2010)

I want the heating cable because my substrate has poor circulation and is at least 5 degrees cooler than the rest of my tank

what do CECs do

i want to change the substrate in one tank and start another for the shrimp


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

CEC stands for cation exchange capacity, which is the ability of the substrate to essentially "hold onto" nutrients. A higher CEC substrate means that it will be able to "hold on" to more nutrients.


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## H2OLOVER (Apr 29, 2010)

cool how long does flourite "last"


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## Danh Vu (Jul 3, 2010)

Longer than we will ever live.


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## boringname (Nov 11, 2010)

H2OLOVER said:


> cool how long does flourite "last"


Its clay so it has a negative charge and high surface area and the plant nutrients are attracted to it because they have a positive charge. So you put it in and it gives a place for the roots to grow and it will hold nutes provided by root tablets, dosing the water and fish waste. So as long as you keep introducing more nutes it will keep attracting them and thus feed the plants through cation exchange.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Flourite is heavier than Eco Complete. (used both)
Mineralized topsoil capped with anything with a grain/frag size larger than Flourite is a PITA and a mess. (imo) River gravel is a total mess when used as a capping material.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

boringname said:


> Its clay so it has a *negative charge* and high surface area and the *plant nutrients are attracted to it because they have a positive charge*.


This does not make any scientific sense.


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## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

How does that not make sense? 

However it's wrong either way. lol

The only 'gravel' like soil is called aqua-soil...its very expensive


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## H2OLOVER (Apr 29, 2010)

Darkblade48 said:


> This does not make any scientific sense.


thats what i was thinking
so does flourite expire


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

H2OLOVER said:


> thats what i was thinking
> so does flourite expire


It will not expire in our lifetime (if by "expire" you mean break down).

If you are talking about the nutrients it will be able to hold onto due to its high CEC, then, as plants use up the nutrients, you will have to replenish it (i.e. via fertilization).


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## Danh Vu (Jul 3, 2010)

^+:angel:


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## boringname (Nov 11, 2010)

Darkblade48 said:


> This does not make any scientific sense.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cation_exchange_capacity


"The quantity of positively charged ions (cations) that a clay mineral or similar material can accommodate on its negatively charged surface is expressed as milli-ion equivalent per 100 g, or more commonly as milliequivalent (meq) per 100 g or cmol/kg. Clays are aluminosilicates in which some of the aluminium and silicon ions have been replaced by elements with different valence, or charge. For example, aluminium (Al3+) may be replaced by iron (Fe2+) or magnesium (Mg2+), leading to a net negative charge. This charge attracts cations when the clay is immersed in an electrolyte such as salty water and causes an electrical double layer."


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

This may be more useful in a highly conductive solution such as brine, but I wonder how effective it truly is in freshwater (granted that freshwater can still conduct electricity due to "contaminants", albeit poorly).


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## boringname (Nov 11, 2010)

http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/assessment/files/soil_structure_sq_physical_indicator_sheet.pdf

"Clay particles carry a negative charge on their surface that can cause them to repel each other, but that attracts and adsorbs cations present in the soil."

---

I've provided two sources which state that clay has a negative charge and attracts positively charged ions. I'd like to see someone explain why my description of clay having a negative charge and attracting positively charged nutrients is wrong.


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## boringname (Nov 11, 2010)

Darkblade48 said:


> This may be more useful in a highly conductive solution such as brine, but I wonder how effective it truly is in freshwater (granted that freshwater can still conduct electricity due to "contaminants", albeit poorly).


You have nothing but don't want to admit it.


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## sdm (Jan 9, 2007)

boringname said:


> http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/assessment/files/soil_structure_sq_physical_indicator_sheet.pdf
> 
> "Clay particles carry a negative charge on their surface that can cause them to repel each other, but that attracts and adsorbs cations present in the soil."
> 
> ...



It's not wrong.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm sure you could take mineralized soil, add a bit more clay, shape it into small balls and put it in the oven if you really wanted. (I suspect that's how ADA is made.) 

If you do it, take pics cuz I want to see. :flick:

I'd skip the heating cable. IMO they're more hassle and expense than any possible benefit.


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## kendrid (May 15, 2010)

The Barr report blog has an experiment with inert substrate, eco and enriched eco. It's an interesting experiment.

http://www.barrreport.com/entry.php/34-Day-one-Start-of-the-experiment


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