# Micro nutrient deficiency - yes it can happen!



## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Thanks for sharing the results! This is very enlightening and confirms that a high CEC substrate is capable if adsorbing cations at a very fast rate.

Did the plants have enough root contact with the substrate to acquire the nutrients there instead of the water column? In my tank, the plants that have not been topped and replanted grow the best with minimal influence of water column dosing, i assume due to the roots.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

thanks for posting this PortalMasteryRy, it would be very helpful to those who are using soil vs inert substrate.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Do we think some process might prohibit the plant's from taking up the nutrient's that may be adsorbed/absorbed by substrates with moderate to high CEC like the safe-t-sorb?
I am interested for I am currently running a low tech soil based tank with safe-t-sorb as a cap,and though it's been only a few week's (8) since the tank was flooded,I see no issues yet...
I am only dosing once a week and should think if my substrate was stripping out essential mineral (s) I might see evidence, but perhaps my relatively easy plant's don't need much?
No increase in lighting maybe driving demand for more?
Wonder why the safe-t-sorb would only strip manganese and not other mineral's as well to plant's detriment?
I remember a couple year's back using some KENT"S Iron/Manganese in my tank from left over reef day's, but do not recall any harm nor noted improvement but this post may have me picking up some more just in case.
Would not have to get crazy then in my low tech with the CSM+B.
Thus far, my two large sword plant's(Kleiner Bar/Red flame),Anubia,crypt balansae,crypt parva,crypt blasii,Wisteria,are performing well.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Thanks for sharing the results! This is very enlightening and confirms that a high CEC substrate is capable if adsorbing cations at a very fast rate.
> 
> Did the plants have enough root contact with the substrate to acquire the nutrients there instead of the water column? In my tank, the plants that have not been topped and replanted grow the best with minimal influence of water column dosing, i assume due to the roots.



Yes, when I pull out stem plants I see roots in the substrate. They are slightly less for those plants which I think were affected more by the micro deficiency. Ludwigia S. showed very little roots.
High CEC substrates seem to work. I just can't confirm if it affects all of the micro nutrients. I might do an empty tank test. I still have a 50 lbs bag of Safe-T-Sorb that I can try it out with a higher dose of micros and see if the micros will lessen gradually after a couple of days. Might be a way to make use of my Zinc test since it requires higher levels of micros in the water. 



happi said:


> thanks for posting this PortalMasteryRy, it would be very helpful to those who are using soil vs inert substrate.


You're welcome. For inert substrate users, I would be very careful in micro fert dosing. It is very easy to overdose it because of 0 CEC of the substrate. 




roadmaster said:


> Do we think some process might prohibit the plant's from taking up the nutrient's that may be adsorbed/absorbed by substrates with moderate to high CEC like the safe-t-sorb?
> I am interested for I am currently running a low tech soil based tank with safe-t-sorb as a cap,and though it's been only a few week's (8) since the tank was flooded,I see no issues yet...
> I am only dosing once a week and should think if my substrate was stripping out essential mineral (s) I might see evidence, but perhaps my relatively easy plant's don't need much?
> No increase in lighting maybe driving demand for more?
> ...


I don't know why the plants are struggling to pull nutrients from the substrate. It could also be that since my micros keep bottoming out that all my plants were struggling in general and that affected the rooting of some plants.

I don't think it is just limited to Manganese and I might setup a simple test with some extra STS that I have to see how it affects Zinc. I do have to use an empty tank for it since my Zinc test would require way too much Zinc in the tank for it to work properly. Some of the easy plants show less visible signs but it would be hard to tell unless you test for it. My real concern here is that it is the 0 levels of micronutrients. I think that with even a very small amount of micros that the plants will survive and grow and only when you get 0 levels is when it becomes a problem. 

I was able to get away with it for the longest time because I daily dose CSM+B. 

If you have low light then it might not be a problem since the general growth rate is lower.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

What were the concentrations of phosphate? Precipitation could occur as well, though that wouldn't explain why the inert substrate would remain high while the CEC substrate drastically reduces them.

Also, since microorganismal activity is required to reduce certain nutrients and make them available for the roots, do you notice a large population of bacteria in the substrate by the roots? This may be one of the biggest factors affecting nutrient availability if the microorganisms are limited.



roadmaster said:


> Wonder why the safe-t-sorb would only strip manganese and not other mineral's as well to plant's detriment?
> I remember a couple year's back using some KENT"S Iron/Manganese in my tank from left over reef day's, but do not recall any harm nor noted improvement but this post may have me picking up some more just in case.


The CEC has an order of priority; it will adsorb certain metals more readily than others. The STS clay is used in certain heavy metal contaminated waters for remediation and if you search, youll find some scientific literature on this. It has to do with the conformation of the molecules, the geometry and such. It will list which cations will adsorb in order of priority. Something like Pb > Cu >Zn > Mn. Don't quite quote me on this order.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

*Tonina Fluviatilis comparison*

Here are some pics of my tonina f. from two tanks.

*40B summary*
300 TDS
60 ppm Ca
60 ppm K
20 ppm NO3
1.5 ppm PO4
5-15 ppb Manganese from the last couple of days ago with a reading of 0 ppb 6 days ago

*20G long summary*
485 TDS
80 Ca
100+ K (tested on medium range K (0-100 ppm) test and my photometer said it was out of range)
19 ppm NO3
1 ppm PO4
94 ppb Manganese from last test 6 days ago

All tanks are high tech with a dosing pump and CO2 injection.

Picture of a healthy Tonina F.









*Tonina in my 40B*
The ones I have in my 40B are both from a batch of stems that I got at the start of the year and some more newer stems only a few weeks old.
You can see in the picture the newer stems (blue) all have big long leaves consistent throughout the entire stem while my original older stems just struggled to grow and keep
losing the bottom leaves. 

You'll notice in the picture that some of the tips look weird and appear short and stubby and have smaller leaves mostly on my older stems.









You'll also notice 2 recovering tips that is growing properly. These tips started to show up only after the change in my CSM+B dose. 

*Tonina in my 20L*
You would think it might be another issue like CO2 but that was not the case. I took an almost dead stem from my 40B after it floated and tossed it in my 20L. The plant had a tiny growth on the top and the rest of the stem was dead and brown. I planted it in between some AR. The stem grew really well and way better than any stem I had in my 40B 









Below is a picture of my tank and I'm not feeding my fish. This is the picture of the tank only about an hour after the lights turn on. You can see a ton of my platys staying at the top indicating to me that I have a ton of CO2 and this is with a air pump connected to a bubble stone that runs 24/7. My SAE still do whatever they do so I'm not too concerned. When the SAEs start gasping for air is when I'm in trouble. My CO2 is started 4 hours before the lights turn on FYI.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Well,I was/am counting on the soil/safe-t-sorb to become nutrient sink so that I might get another year out of low tech tank as opposed to two year's from previous soil/cat litter tank which performed well for me.
I have read and spoken to other's who have used the safe-t-sorb and was aware that the stuff initially can strip mg/calcium from the water but as my water is fairly hard,I was not too concerned.
My soil/cat litter tank's just seemed to become less effective after a year or two and I simply re-dirt them but they do well for first year to eighteen month's.
If the safe-t-sorb is still adsorbing nutrient;s from the water after two year's as reported..I am interested if the issue was always being observed or just in last few month's? 
I did no note that all micro's were bottoming out in OP's tank and this was my interest.
thanks for response.
Safe-t-sorb effort is new to me so I will have to observe more intently.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Also, since microorganismal activity is required to reduce certain nutrients and make them available for the roots, do you notice a large population of bacteria in the substrate by the roots? This may be one of the biggest factors affecting nutrient availability if the microorganisms are limited.



Solcielo, how do you measure the bacteria population in the substrate?


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Haven't read through your whole thread, sorry, but are you sure lighting is not the culprit here, and not one trace element fixing all tonina problems?


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

StrungOut said:


> Haven't read through your whole thread, sorry, but are you sure lighting is not the culprit here, and not one trace element fixing all tonina problems?


Lighting was never a problem. The toninas are 6"-8" directly underneath my 36" planted+. 

I don't know which micro it was but after the new dosing amount, I am able to grow my toninas properly. All tops are healthy and I was able to stop the loss of leaves at the bottom of the stem. 

The other indicator was the ludwigia senegalensis which struggled to grow and was very pale even with good Fe dosing. After trying to maintain at least 15 ppb Mn in the water the plants responded well. Even my downoi responded well to the new dosing. 

I'll have full confirmation soon as I have started to switch my substrate with black diamond blasting sand.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Lighting was never a problem. The toninas are 6"-8" directly underneath my 36" planted+.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What's your water GH and KH? I read your values for Ca but I couldn't find any info about Mg... Just wondering if hardness of water could also play a role here.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

I keep my Mg levels between 15-20 ppm and my CA around 60-70 ppm. I don't know what my GH is and my KH should be around 4-6. I have yet to test my alkalinity but I dose 2-3 dKH after every water change using Dolomite. 

Ca and Mg is not the issue. The grow tank where I tested out the tonina and where it grew without issues has water that is very hard. 

At one point, I had my 40B that had issues with the toninas running on 50 ppm Ca /15 Mg/40 K and at another time I played with 80 Ca/ 20 mg/60+ ppm K and still the plants did not grow properly. I have tried out so many combinations including high/low nitrate, phosphate and even Fe. The only thing that solved it was the adjustment in my micro fert dose so my Manganese levels do not bottom out or read 0 ppb when the lights were on. The same issue also affected Syngonanthus Belem but the toninas was the worse between the two plants. 

Like what I stated earlier, both my grow tanks never read 0 ppb Manganese and read 90+ and 140+ ppb Mn when I tested them. Both these grow tanks grew toninas without any issues. Even my 20 L which has very hard water (485 ppm TDS), grew the tonina well and even had the cuttings grow with new side shoot or new plants without the tops. 

I have some cuttings and some very unhealthy tonina tops from my 40B growing that I threw in my 29 G grow tank. I'm expecting it to grow healthy in a 2-3 weeks.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> I keep my Mg levels between 15-20 ppm and my CA around 60-70 ppm. I don't know what my GH is and my KH should be around 4-6. I have yet to test my alkalinity but I dose 2-3 dKH after every water change using Dolomite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for clarifying.

Is the Manganese Sulfate Monohydrate the one you are using?

Like this one:

Manganese Sulfate Monohydrate - 32% Mn - 1 Pound https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004RXD1HK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_KcaiybFQZP2RS


Or something different?


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

fablau said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> Is the Manganese Sulfate Monohydrate the one you are using?
> 
> ...


Nope. I just increased the dose of my CSM+B to compensate for the lose of Mn in the water. This is something that I never wanted to do but so far it is the only way I can keep the toninas and the other plants happy.

Unfortunately the possibility of overdosing one of the micros is there and my Fe is always high. Fortunately, I've dosed higher Fe prior to the change in my CSM+B dosing so I know how much my tank can tank. 

This issue should be resolved in 2 weeks as I am in the process of switching the substrate already. After that I'll be dosing to maintain around 80-100 ppb of Mn in the water using CSM+B.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

@fablau that is 32%, meaning the other 68% is filler or whatever 

Get this higher grade instead - https://www.amazon.com/Manganese-Sulfate-Powder-Space-Saver-Bottle/dp/B00WS3FCUA/

Then the calculators will work to figure the doses


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Nope. I just increased the dose of my CSM+B to compensate for the lose of Mn in the water. This is something that I never wanted to do but so far it is the only way I can keep the toninas and the other plants happy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Got it, thanks for clarifying and sorry for the confusion.

I am curious: how do you "switch" substrate progressively? Is that what you are doing?


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

burr740 said:


> @fablau that is 32%, meaning the other 68% is filler or whatever
> 
> Get this higher grade instead - https://www.amazon.com/Manganese-Sulfate-Powder-Space-Saver-Bottle/dp/B00WS3FCUA/
> 
> Then the calculators will work to figure the doses




Thanks Burr!! That's right!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

fablau said:


> Thanks Burr!! That's right!


Something else to keep in mind is the Mn in csmb is chelated (edta) so it should stick around longer available to plants.

How much longer, or is one actually better than the other? Dont know.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

fablau said:


> Got it, thanks for clarifying and sorry for the confusion.
> 
> I am curious: how do you "switch" substrate progressively? Is that what you are doing?


Yes. I just switched the right 1/3 of my tank. I'll post some pictures on my journal tom. 

It was pretty nerve racking! I divided one section of my tank using a short polycarbonate sheet that spans across that section from front to back. Then I siphoned (and scooped) the substrate out then slowly filled the corner of tank with the new substrate using cups. I then used my aquascaping tool to level the substrate. 

The water got so cloudy at one point because I had to scoop up some substrate. I realized 5 mins in that I won't have enough time to siphon the substrate from the divided area before I reach 50% of my water level. The operation took around 3 1/2 hours which includes replating all the plants in almost the same spot. 

@Burr: Yes the Mn in CSM+B does stay in the water quite long. After testing all of my 3 tanks, only the 40B with STS substrate kept bottoming out while the other 2 tanks which never got daily dosing of micros kept Mn levels of more than 50 ppb.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> @Burr: Yes the Mn in CSM+B does stay in the water quite long. After testing all of my 3 tanks, only the 40B with STS substrate kept bottoming out while the other 2 tanks which never got daily dosing of micros kept Mn levels of more than 50 ppb.


Good to know. Once the new tank gets going I may send you some water to test how the non chelated does. 

Also want to say how very interesting and enlightening this thread is. Thanks for sharing!


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

burr740 said:


> Good to know. Once the new tank gets going I may send you some water to test how the pure stuff does.
> 
> Also want to say how very interesting and enlightening this thread is. Thanks for sharing!


Sure I'd be happy to test out your water. Just send me a PM. 

I'm just happy that this was not another case of toxicity. It was very frustrating to not be able to grow Tonina F. and Syn Belem in my 40B while my 2 grow tanks would grow them with ease. 

I'm also setting up a new 20 high to do some test on Micro toxicity. I am curious to see it firsthand and compare it with what I saw in my tank.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Lighting was never a problem. The toninas are 6"-8" directly underneath my 36" planted+.
> 
> I don't know which micro it was but after the new dosing amount, I am able to grow my toninas properly. All tops are healthy and I was able to stop the loss of leaves at the bottom of the stem.
> 
> ...


As i observe your tonina's are on the side of the tank(where lighting is less), bottom stems are hardly getting any light. This is just observing your 40breeder tank. I think they'd do a lot better in the middle, my opinion is they need higher lighting than even syngonanthus supplemented with good co2. Not here to argue, here for you to prove me wrong . Keep updated, switching to a new substrate can stir up a lot of organics and cause issues as well.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

I would not rule out co2 either just for the fact that fish are gasping at the surface. Not a well indicator, certainly not for this plant.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

burr740 said:


> @*fablau* that is 32%, meaning the other 68% is filler or whatever
> 
> Get this higher grade instead - https://www.amazon.com/Manganese-Sulfate-Powder-Space-Saver-Bottle/dp/B00WS3FCUA/


They both have 32% _by weight_ of Mn as they're both MnSO4*H2O, the "fillers" being Sulfur, Oxygen and Hydrogen. All of these other ions are required in significantly higher concentrations then would otherwise be added with proper dosing of Mn (in others words, irrelevant).


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Audionut said:


> They both have 32% _by weight_ of Mn as they're both MnSO4*H2O, the "fillers" being Sulfur, Oxygen and Hydrogen. All of these other ions are required in significantly higher concentrations then would otherwise be added with proper dosing of Mn (in others words, irrelevant).


Ah OK, I misunderstood the meaning of that because my chemistry sucks. 

So...all MnSO4*H2O is 32% Mn, and in this case, the 99% refers to the purity of said 32% compound. Is that right? 

In other words I could've saved $15?! :/


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

burr740 said:


> So...all MnSO4*H2O is 32% Mn, and in this case, the 99% refers to the purity of said 32% compound. Is that right?


There's 100% of _stuff_ in the jar. 99% of that stuff is MnSO4*H2O (of which 32% of that is Mn), with the other 1% being impurities.

It's to early in the morning for maths, but this means that when you dose some amount of that stuff from the jar, you don't actually dose 32.5047 % of Mn, but some smaller percentage because of the 1% of impurities. The percentages listed in the link assume you dose 100% MnSO4*H2O, but you're only dosing 99%.

This shows the difference between lab grade product (probably 99.9% purity), and cheap sh*t (some lower purity). I personally wouldn't be concerned with the impurities in trace elements though, because you're dosing such a small amount based on 32% of Mn. That 1% of impurities is very _*un*likely_ to be entirely one impurity, but rather numerous different elements. If you have an inert or no substrate, dose regularly and don't water change regularly, you're on your own.



Solcielo lawrencia said:


> The CEC has an order of priority; it will adsorb certain metals more readily than others................................if you search, youll find some scientific literature on this. It has to do with the conformation of the molecules, the geometry and such. It will list which cations will adsorb in order of priority. Something like Pb > Cu >Zn > Mn. Don't quite quote me on this order.


The strength of bond of cations to soil anions is determined by the charge of the element, and also the cations hydrated radius. Cations with a smaller hydrated radius have a stronger bond then cations with a larger hydrated radius. For instance, even though Calcium and Magnesium both have a divalent charge, Magnesium has a larger hydrated radius, which means its bond with soil anions is weaker then Calcium which has a smaller hydrated radius


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Audionut said:


> There's 100% of _stuff_ in the jar. 99% of that stuff is MnSO4*H2O (of which 32% of that is Mn), with the other 1% being impurities.
> 
> It's to early in the morning for maths, but this means that when you dose some amount of that stuff from the jar, you don't actually dose 32.5047 % of Mn, but some smaller percentage because of the 1% of impurities. The percentages listed in the link assume you dose 100% MnSO4*H2O, but you're only dosing 99%.
> 
> ...




Very good to know that, thanks Audionut.

So, either one should be right then... and we can use the calculator at rotalabutterfly by selecting MnSO4*H2O and dosing the results with either of those?


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

fablau said:


> So, either one should be right then... and we can use the calculator at rotalabutterfly by selecting MnSO4*H2O and dosing the results with either of those?


Correct. Unless you're using precision instrumentation, the accuracy of your dosing will be less than then accuracy of the calculator (with regards to impurities and such).

_Probably _the biggest issue with using hydrated Mn will be the lack of chelation. Unless your water is < 6.0 pH, the Mn will oxidize to forms that are not available to plants, which brings issues. 

Wastage. Some (_probably_ large) amount of dosed Mn will precipitate. This precipitate will not be in a form available to plants, and has the other side effect of depositing large amounts of (precipitated) Mn into the tank. This _will_ be another issue if there is a large change in water chemistry that is conductive to Mn solubility. For instance, if pH rapidly drops, suddenly those deposits of Mn will begin to dissolve into the water.

Precipitation is driven by concentration. Oxygen, OH- and the concentration of various other elements in the water. In other words, soft water and smaller (more regular) doses of Mn will provide a higher concentration of (plant) *available* Mn, then if you have hard water and/or dose a large amount once per week.

I would recommend to dose with a Humic acid (such as Fluvic acid). Acids such as Fluvic and Citric have chelation qualities that will extend the period by which Mn remains soluble.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Audionut said:


> Correct. Unless you're using precision instrumentation, the accuracy of your dosing will be less than then accuracy of the calculator (with regards to impurities and such).
> 
> _Probably _the biggest issue with using hydrated Mn will be the lack of chelation. Unless your water is < 6.0 pH, the Mn will oxidize to forms that are not available to plants, which brings issues.
> 
> ...




Wow, this is wonderful information, thank you so much!

In my case, with pretty hard water (KH 7, GH 13) adding your mentioned acid would probably be advisable... Would you recommend mixing that together with Mn into a dosing solution, and then use that solution when dosing the tank?


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

fablau said:


> Would you recommend mixing that together with Mn into a dosing solution, and then use that solution when dosing the tank?


It's what I do. I also keep EDTA Fe in a separate dosing solution, since as far as I understand EDTA bonds more readily to other ions then Fe. I add citric acid to all trace dosing solutions.

It's pretty easy to keep adding citric acid to dosing solutions. So feel free to start with a small amount of acid in the dosing solution and increase as needed. What's needed? Probably some amount where there is some effect on pH of the tank water when adding a dose of solution.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Audionut said:


> I would recommend to dose with a Humic acid (such as Fluvic acid). Acids such as Fluvic and Citric have chelation qualities that will extend the period by which Mn remains soluble.


I've read some post from another site about using citric acid in the liquid micro solution to extend the life of the nutrients in the water. Can I use vinegar which is acetic acid instead of citric acid? This is the one I used when I refilled my micro nutrient solution and it was the first time I used it. 

I saw that citric acid is readily available in the stores. How much do I need to be effective in the solution? Is there a certain PH to aim for?


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Can I use vinegar which is acetic acid instead of citric acid?


The problem with vinegar is that there are (likely) other additives. 



PortalMasteryRy said:


> How much do I need to be effective in the solution? Is there a certain PH to aim for?


A small amount in the solution bottle will ensure the micros remain soluble and also help to ward off bacterial growth. You can use Pourbaix diagrams to find optimal pH, but anything < 5.5 pH should do the trick. Can you test for Molybdenum? This reacts a little differently to the other micros.

It could be worth taking some of your tank water, dosing an (equivalent) amount of CSM+B (for the smaller water volume) and testing the micros after a day or so. This might help to show what's being lost to precipitation, and what's being taken by cation exchange sites.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Great info, thank you Audionut.


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

Really nice to share this ! Experiencing similar issues currently. Wish I had one of those nifty doodads you got there, expensive as F though 
Did you get it only for aquarium use?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Audionut said:


> The problem with vinegar is that there are (likely) other additives.


Not really. Water is the only additive. You'd want distilled vinegar where there are no vinegar producing micro-organism.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

mistergreen said:


> Not really. Water is the only additive.


For some silly reason, I never even bothered to read a label. Better to be safe then sorry, but better still to be correct. Cheers.


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## Soulstar (Aug 27, 2013)

Now im even more confused as Im using a high CEC substrate (aquasoil) whether to increase my csm+b to ensure Mn is not deficient or to reduce my csm+b to ensure other micros are not at toxic levels. Its like a never ending cycle of guessing, as you are never sure if its deficiency or toxicity by just plant observation, especially for noobs like me. 



Sent from my SM-N910S using Tapatalk


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Soulstar said:


> Now im even more confused as Im using a high CEC substrate (aquasoil) whether to increase my csm+b to ensure Mn is not deficient or to reduce my csm+b to ensure other micros are not at toxic levels. Its like a never ending cycle of guessing, as you are never sure if its deficiency or toxicity by just plant observation, especially for noobs like me.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910S using Tapatalk


Plants will access the nutrients in the soil when they need it. No worries.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Fissure said:


> Really nice to share this ! Experiencing similar issues currently. Wish I had one of those nifty doodads you got there, expensive as F though
> Did you get it only for aquarium use?


Yes. I bought the photometer for my aquariums. When I finally had 3 running tanks then I decided I'm not going to take chances with the water chemistry. The time needed to grow and cultivate plants is too long to leave it to chance. 



Soulstar said:


> Now im even more confused as Im using a high CEC substrate (aquasoil) whether to increase my csm+b to ensure Mn is not deficient or to reduce my csm+b to ensure other micros are not at toxic levels. Its like a never ending cycle of guessing, as you are never sure if its deficiency or toxicity by just plant observation, especially for noobs like me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910S using Tapatalk


It is very confusing and is very hard to sort out especially since every tank is different. Usually you encounter issues when you start growing the harder plants like Syngonanthus and Tonina plants. Even some of the ludwigias can be picky.

If you are using Aquasoil and if you are using EI with the consistent weekly water changes then you should be fine. This is an issue with people who do water changes less frequently. I usually do a water change every two weeks.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Soulstar said:


> Now im even more confused as Im using a high CEC substrate (aquasoil) whether to increase my csm+b to ensure Mn is not deficient or to reduce my csm+b to ensure other micros are not at toxic levels. Its like a never ending cycle of guessing, as you are never sure if its deficiency or toxicity by just plant observation, especially for noobs like me.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910S using Tapatalk




Hey guys, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that high CEC substrates are the ones like Eco Complete or similar, and not Aquasoil... Am I wrong?


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Aquasoil is also a high CEC substrate. Someone posted a chart a few weeks back showing how much CEC each type substrate had.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Aquasoil is also a high CEC substrate. Someone posted a chart a few weeks back showing how much CEC each type substrate had.




Wow, thanks for clarifying, I really didn't know that. Your mentioned chart would be really handy, anyone knows where to find it?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Might google CEC of planted aquarium substrates and see what pop's up or doesn't.
I recall the list mentioned with various substrate's commonly used ,and seem to remember it was in a thread bout fluorite.
Not that help's much.Was week's ago though, rather than a year or two.


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## DMtankd (Dec 2, 2009)

Think this might be it? 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/29-substrate/1089449-flourite-substrate.html#post9612577


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Regular dirt has the one off the highest CEC btw.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

DMtankd said:


> Think this might be it?
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/29-substrate/1089449-flourite-substrate.html#post9612577




That's a nice chart! I wish to find something like that including Eco, Aquasoil and more products we all use nowadays... I searched everywhere on the web but couldn't find anything.


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## hard determinist (Mar 4, 2016)

This may also help, although the table is not complete:








Source: http://golias.net/plantedtank/substrate-analysis


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Very nice chart, thanks for sharing!


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

Am I reading this right that the new Aquasoil has little N and almost no P? Seems a huge departure from the old formulation.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Ben Belton said:


> Am I reading this right that the new Aquasoil has little N and almost no P? Seems a huge departure from the old formulation.


I would really doubt that's correct. If it is one might as well use Eco complete.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

If number's from above chart are to be believed,the Tropica Aquarium soil would give plant's the best benefit from nutrient standpoint.
Prolly cheaper too, I don't know.
Presently using just plain topsoil,capped with safe-t-sorb for good CEC capability.
I dose the water column a little once a week after water change just cause .


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Ben Belton said:


> Am I reading this right that the new Aquasoil has little N and almost no P? Seems a huge departure from the old formulation.


Here's some info on AS versus AS Light. 

NATURE AQUARIUM NOTES#12 Features of Amazonia Light | ADA - AQUA JOURNAL


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## DMtankd (Dec 2, 2009)

So, interestingly, I'm seeing something similar in my tank - which uses 11 month old Flourite. My Boron levels are detectable at 0.08ppm, but by Mn levels are undetectable. Given my CSM dosing, I'd expect to see some Mn in the water column.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/1102346-well-somethings-not-right.html#post9725882

Given the chart that was referenced earlier in this (incredibly insightful) thread, Flourite actually has a pretty low CEC. So I guess I'm wondering out loud if the sole cause in your case is the high CEC substrate.

I'm assuming that the CSM+B you use in all your tanks is from the same batch, same supplier? I understand that the +B in CSM+B is done separately, by the reseller, so there's obviously the chance that too much B was added to the mix. Also, as stated elsewhere, the consistency of CSM+B is such that you may get higher or lower consistency of each micro depending on which crystals happened to fall out when you mixed your micro batch....unless you're mixing in large batches.

Also wondering if it could be preferential uptake by a certain species in your 40B that's not present in your other tanks? I know certain plants are said to be phosphate-hogs, etc...maybe we've both got some Manganese-hogs in our woefully Mn deficient 40Bs?

Maybe use that setup of yours (drools :laugh2 to check the ratios in your 40B micro mix or prepare a known solution of CSM+B in DI water and see if the ratio results actually match Zorfox?
What amounts of CSM+B do you mix into your micro batches? I've historically done ~2g. Going forward, I'm going to increase concentration of my mix.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

The issue that worried me was having a 0 ppb Mn readout from my 40B while I have 2 other tanks that use the same micro solution that have a reading of Mn higher than 80 ppb. Also my 40B get's a daily dose of CSM+B while the other 2 tanks do not. So taking that into account means something is sucking the Mn or possible the other micros out of the water column. 

I just setup a new 20 high tank and tested the water yesterday after 2 weeks and as expected, Mn was present in the water at 49 ppb with a daily dose of .005 B ppm from CSM+B. I seeded the tank and tested 56 ppb 2 days after I started the tank. So my CSM+B dose in that tank is enough to keep Mn in the water. 

I still have a small amount of STS in the my 40B and I have not tested the water for a while. I will be running some test tonight and see if I have Mn in the water. 

Regardless if the ratio of the nutrient mix is right or not, I should still be getting a good amount of Mn in the water but it keeps hitting 0 ppb.


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## DMtankd (Dec 2, 2009)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> The issue that worried me was having a 0 ppb Mn readout from my 40B


Definitely agree that the primary concern is having 0 Mn, just questioning the hypothesis on why it's going to 0.



PortalMasteryRy said:


> while I have 2 other tanks that use the same micro solution


So I guess it's the 'same micro solution' that I'm wondering about. Are all 3 tanks truly dosed out of the same bottle of micro solution? Or are they three different bottles where three different scoops of CSM+B were used with (possibly) different mixes of crystals within each scoop, yielding different ratios of individual micros in each bottle?



PortalMasteryRy said:


> something is sucking the Mn or possible the other micros out of the water column.


Agreed. My question is what is the 'something' that is sucking out the Mn. Is it the high CEC substrate? In my case, with Fluorite, a relatively low CEC substrate, I don't think that's the case. Wondering if maybe it's Mn hungry plants (Or just that we are not really getting as much Mn into the column as we think we are with CSM)



PortalMasteryRy said:


> I just setup a new 20 high tank and tested the water yesterday after 2 weeks and as expected, Mn was present in the water at 49 ppb with a daily dose of .005 B ppm from CSM+B. I seeded the tank and tested 56 ppb 2 days after I started the tank. So my CSM+B dose in that tank is enough to keep Mn in the water.


What is the substrate in this new tank?
What is the plant mix in this tank relative to the 40B?
Is this dosed from a different bottle of micro mix with a different scoop of CSM+B and a different mix of crystals? To my knowledge, you're the first person testing at this level of precision with such a low dose of CSM+B...perhaps we're encountering consistency issues that trace-heavy folks never have to worry about.



PortalMasteryRy said:


> I still have a small amount of STS in the my 40B and I have not tested the water for a while. I will be running some test tonight and see if I have Mn in the water.


 Will be interested to see the result. Thanks so much for your responses! This is great stuff!


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