# 12” dwarf sag?????



## Rollintent (Jan 23, 2018)

I recently received and planted what was sold to me as dwarf sag from an online aquatic plants supplier. The plants did not look to me like Dwarf Sag. When I received them. They’ve been planted about a week and have stretched to almost 12 inches tall. is this possible for dearf sag??? The guy I talked to where I bought it assures me that it is dwarf sag.and will change its growth from over time. Anyone else have this experience?


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Rollintent said:


> I recently received and planted what was sold to me as dwarf sag from an online aquatic plants supplier. The plants did not look to me like Dwarf Sag. When I received them. They’ve been planted about a week and have stretched to almost 12 inches tall. is this possible for dearf sag??? The guy I talked to where I bought it assures me that it is dwarf sag.and will change its growth from over time. Anyone else have this experience?


It’s most likely jungle val.


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## Rollintent (Jan 23, 2018)

So I just got screwed most likely? I might post the name of the company if that’s so. He argued stongly that it was dwarf sag. If so what a bunch you know what!!!!


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Rollintent said:


> So I just got screwed most likely? I might post the name of the company if that’s so. He argued stongly that it was dwarf sag. If so what a bunch you know what!!!!


It happens all the time with people purchasing dwarf sag.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Rollintent said:


> So I just got screwed most likely? I might post the name of the company if that’s so. He argued stongly that it was dwarf sag. If so what a bunch you know what!!!!


Do not do so. Reviews of shops, whether positive or negative, are not permitted and will be removed.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I've had dwarf sag reach over 12". some plants would stay "small" and others would stretch way out despite being derived from the same mother plant. I believe it is an environmental response, access to light/nutrients or a combination of such. 

Many species look very similar to dwarf sag and act closely. Helanthium spp. and val's are the most similar IME


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

This tank is 8" tall... No CO2 and higher light which does keep them more compact, but they get maybe 4" in leaf length and probably 2" tall.


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## bud40oz (Dec 9, 2017)

i'm sure you could just mention the said shop with no other comments good or bad, and it wouldn't be called a review ya?


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## Frangipani (Jan 31, 2018)

Rollintent, would you post a picture of purchased plant please? Thanks.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Do you have a magnifying glass, loop or microscope? Vals have tiny spikes or hooks on the leaf margins. Sagittaria leaves the edges are smooth. I got some plants in a swap once that were mis-identified, figured it out this way.


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## fishyfishy101 (Nov 12, 2014)

Plants will grow taller in lower light and shorter in higher light. I bought dwarf sag and when it came some plants were over 8 inches so I was sure it was something else, but now in my tank the new growth is under 2 inches. I'm not saying it is or isn't true dwarf sag but it's possible that it is


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## Rollintent (Jan 23, 2018)

All I have is this. Plants on the far left are the plants in question. They are now over 14” tall and look healthy as a horse. They’re in a 75 gallon tank. Fresh and plant 2.0 light maxed out 8 hours a day so I don’t think they’re stretching due to low light. The supplier said they’ve been grown emmersed and will revert back to a completely different looking plant at some point. I will believe when I see it and I’ll be shocked. I have a background as a wildlife biologist and I know plants can do some things that will surprise you depending on their environment but I think this is way outside the realm of possibility. It would be cool If I’m wrong. I just can’t imagine it right now.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

If the plant was grown immersed than it will look completely different than its submerged form. With your picture it does look like immersed sagitaria.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Do you have a close up? Could be helanthium spp. as well.


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## Rollintent (Jan 23, 2018)

Ok so let’s say it is dwarf sag. What will it do next? Melt and then re-sprout looking like what dwarf sag is supposed to look like? What should I expect to see happening from here on out? I’m convinced it’s jungle Val but would love to be wrong.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Rollintent said:


> Ok so let’s say it is dwarf sag. What will it do next? Melt and then re-sprout looking like what dwarf sag is supposed to look like? What should I expect to see happening from here on out? I’m convinced it’s jungle Val but would love to be wrong.




It’s new growth should be submersed (normal looking dwarf sag) and the immersed growth will either melt back or stay put. A close up of the plant and a leaf (both new leaf and immersed leaf) would be helpful. 


Edit: I’ve found some pics of immersed helanthium to submersed, quite a difference, I too thought it was vallisneria at first until I was corrected. The immersed leaves are still there to this day (they look really rough 3-4 months in) but all new growth has been long vallisneria like growth.















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

I’m no plant expert, but those pictures look like Val. 

Pictured below is my tank. On the left is true dwarf Sagittaria Subulata and on the right is leopard val. I’ve had mother plants get longer leaves, but they were 6” at best.


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## Rollintent (Jan 23, 2018)

Nlewis said:


> I’m no plant expert, but those pictures look like Val.
> 
> Pictured below is my tank. On the left is true dwarf Sagittaria Subulata and on the right is leopard val. I’ve had mother plants get longer leaves, but they were 6” at best.


Yep that’s what I believe dwarf sag should look like. 

I did find a better picture that I forgot I took. The two plants to the right of the ruler are the plants in question. They are 14” plus tall now. To the left of the ruler are some Italian Val plants that were already fairly tall when I received them.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Rollintent said:


> Yep that’s what I believe dwarf sag should look like.
> 
> I did find a better picture that I forgot I took. The two plants to the right of the ruler are the plants in question. They are 14” plus tall now.


Is the new growth that large and slinder all the way up with a pointed tip?


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## Rollintent (Jan 23, 2018)

The leaves that are growing tall are fairly pointed and not wider at the ends like the shorter leaves.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Rollintent said:


> The leaves that are growing tall are fairly pointed and not wider at the ends like the shorter leaves.


I think it’s val. I’ll call on the resident plant ID expert @Tinanti


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## Rollintent (Jan 23, 2018)

I’m my mind I’m certain it can’t be dwarf sag. The striations on the leaf surface look just like the Italian Val. If it metamorphasizes into dwarf sag I’ll eat crow and we’ll all learn something but I’d bet my last cold beer it ain’t dwarf sag.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Rollintent said:


> I’m my mind I’m certain it can’t be dwarf sag. The striations on the leaf surface look just like the Italian Val. If it metamorphasizes into dwarf sag I’ll eat crow and we’ll all learn something but I’d bet my last cold beer it ain’t dwarf sag.


Oh no man, you need to drink that beer. Don’t gamble it away.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I'm fairly sure vals do not have an immersed stage, so given the leaves in the most recent pic with the ruler in it, I would say it is sagittaria or helanthium bolivianum angustifolius (my best guess). That picture looks exactly the same at the plant I received, see here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/1211962-plant-id.html


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## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

OK...

The plants in the original pic are indeed a _Sagittaria_ that were grown *e*mersed (immersed means under water!). They look a bit stiff and are a bit wider toward the tips of the blades, two things that you never see in _Vallisneria_, which are obligate aquatics with leaves that are always strap like. As mentioned by someone else, _Vallisneria_ leaves have minute teeth on the tips of the leaves. 

As to what species it is, tough call. Real _Sagittaria subulata_ is a specialized tidal plant that never (!) gets over two inches tall and not usually over .5 to 1 inches. I don't yet know what the stuff is in the hobby that has been going around with that name really is. The latter one can grow to a foot tall or so if crowded, starved of light, etc.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Tinanti said:


> OK...
> 
> The plants in the original pic are indeed a _Sagittaria_ that were grown *e*mersed (immersed means under water!). They look a bit stiff and are a bit wider toward the tips of the blades, two things that you never see in _Vallisneria_, which are obligate aquatics with leaves that are always strap like. As mentioned by someone else, _Vallisneria_ leaves have minute teeth on the tips of the leaves.
> 
> As to what species it is, tough call. Real _Sagittaria subulata_ is a specialized tidal plant that never (!) gets over two inches tall and not usually over .5 to 1 inches. I don't yet know what the stuff is in the hobby that has been going around with that name really is. The latter one can grow to a foot tall or so if crowded, starved of light, etc.


Two questions that I'm curious about. First, is true subulata a brackish only plant? That's what I've found when I originally bought a tank with a 'dwarf sag' carpet, and that's always had me confused. Second, is it possible there are different varieties of subulata?


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## D.Farci (Mar 15, 2016)

Looks like Sag to me. Sag always comes in tall with leaves that broaden at the tips. This is simply how they grow in the farms. I've purchased Sag that looks exactly like yours and a few months later I had many little sprouts of leaves no longer than 4" in the tank similar to the photo NLewis posted. Take a deep breath, relax, it's not the shop's fault if it turns out to be something else. Plants can look many different ways depending on how they are grown.


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## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

natemcnutty said:


> Two questions that I'm curious about. First, is true subulata a brackish only plant? That's what I've found when I originally bought a tank with a 'dwarf sag' carpet, and that's always had me confused. Second, is it possible there are different varieties of subulata?


It grows in freshwater tidal rivers just above the reach of the salt on mud flats, often with _Eriocaulon parkeri_. If you bought a tank with plants already in it, it isn't likely that one. It's possible and even likely that there is variation but I think that the difference between the true subulata and the hobby stuff is probably just too great (and from totally different habitats). But I need to look into it more.


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## Rollintent (Jan 23, 2018)

Tinanti said:


> It grows in freshwater tidal rivers just above the reach of the salt on mud flats, often with _Eriocaulon parkeri_. If you bought a tank with plants already in it, it isn't likely that one. It's possible and even likely that there is variation but I think that the difference between the true subulata and the hobby stuff is probably just too great (and from totally different habitats). But I need to look into it more.


Are you saying that what is circulating in the hobby is some other species of sagitaria that was mistakenly or mis-appropriately marketed as subulata? Not that it matters because what is used in aquariums is working but would true subulata likely or unlikely have a chance of performing well in an aquarium environment?


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## Fireweed (Oct 11, 2016)

Pretty sure dwarf sag as well. 
I also grew it in my 75, low tech and good light (current pro plus) from Tropica cups. 
Was great for a few months, then just took off for the surface, not at all what I had read. 
My suggestion if leave it be, as it spreads into a thick ground cover, pull tall ones as they appear. 
The green is incredible once carpeted.

Bump: Also mine bloomed, little white flower, under water as it couldn't reach as high as surface.


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## Rollintent (Jan 23, 2018)

Well several weeks later and my “dwarf sag” is till sending up long leaves and not a single runner or shoot or anything that looks like dwarf sag. Everyone says dwarf sag sends out plenty of runners. How long does it usually take for them to send out runners? I’m wondering if I should trim back the long leaves and try to force it to do something?


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