# High Light and Algae



## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

High light alone does not cause algae, but high light+nutrients does.


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## brandonhauser (Nov 6, 2015)

Does that mean that I am overdosing EI or could it just be due to the fact that the tank is only a couple/three weeks old?



Solcielo lawrencia said:


> High light alone does not cause algae, but high light+nutrients does.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Probably. Plant mass is very low, low enough that it may not be necessary to dose traces.


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## brandonhauser (Nov 6, 2015)

Interesting. I'll adjust my dosing schedule. Note that substrate is Eco-complete, though, so it's not providing any nutrients to my knowledge.



Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Probably. Plant mass is very low, low enough that it may not be necessary to dose traces.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> High light alone does not cause algae, but high light+nutrients does.


I don't believe this is correct. In an aquarium nutrients play no part in algae problems unless you have too little of one or more of the nutrients. If you have very high light, with no fertilizing, you will almost certainly have lots of algae, so high light alone can cause algae.


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## vols6 (Nov 16, 2015)

High lights with low plant mass to out compete the algae for available nutrients will cause problems. Fast growing stem plants and floaters like dwarf water lettuce will greatly help with algae problems. In my experience there are four main factors for a balanced tank. Light, nutrients, carbon and plant mass. The more these line up the healthier the tank will be. In addition of course to frequent maintenance and filtration and the right stocking for your needs.


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## brandonhauser (Nov 6, 2015)

I'm quite confused now. The plants require high light, but if I use high light I get algae. So what am I doing wrong?


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## Sub-Mariner (Jan 25, 2016)

The basics of it are that even if you aren't dosing ferts and have high light plants, the plants will still need more CO2 to utilize that amount of light. Without those things in balance, you will end up with algae any way you slice it, even with minimal nutrients. So, your options are thus:
1. Decrease light, and perhaps choose different plants that require less light.
2. Increase CO2. 
3. Utilize other faster growing plants that help absorb nutrients in addition to already existing plants.
4. A balancing of the previous three.

There are lots of formulas and data out there about what kind of light vs how much nutrients vs type of plant, etc. You can learn alot from that, but every scape is different. Sometimes you just have to play with it and have a little patience to see what works for your setup.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

downoi, staurogyne repens, and crypt wendtii ...

None of these are high light plants.


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## brandonhauser (Nov 6, 2015)

To my knowledge, downoi's growth depends on the light. If you want low growth you need high light, though I might be mistaken.



ichy said:


> downoi, staurogyne repens, and crypt wendtii ...
> 
> None of these are high light plants.


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## brandonhauser (Nov 6, 2015)

Thanks for your recommendations! I have decreased the white from 100% to 50% intensity and will continue with my usual EI dosing. I forgot to mention it earlier, but I have a few stems of ludwigia in the back of the tank, though they don't get much light. I am hoping these adjustments will help with the algae. 
For the first couple weeks of this tank's life, I had a bunch of stem plants and low light and had no problems with algae. It is only this past week that I replaced most of the stem plants with downoi, repens, and wendtii and raised the light. I figured that's what was needed to for these new plants to thrive. 



Sub-Mariner said:


> The basics of it are that even if you aren't dosing ferts and have high light plants, the plants will still need more CO2 to utilize that amount of light. Without those things in balance, you will end up with algae any way you slice it, even with minimal nutrients. So, your options are thus:
> 1. Decrease light, and perhaps choose different plants that require less light.
> 2. Increase CO2.
> 3. Utilize other faster growing plants that help absorb nutrients in addition to already existing plants.
> ...


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Hoppy said:


> In an aquarium nutrients play no part in algae problems unless you have too little of one or more of the nutrients. If you have very high light, with no fertilizing, you will almost certainly have lots of algae, so high light alone can cause algae.


The idea you mention was perpetuated from an opinion, not based on scientific evidence (which contradicts this opinion), and it violates biological theories of life. All life forms require nutrients. Limit the essential ones and it limits its growth and/or health. Thus, algae growth can be limited by limiting nutrients. Algae can also be limited by providing nutrient levels that are toxic. The point is that the organisms in an aquarium are not exempt from the rules that govern life.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> High light alone does not cause algae, but high light+nutrients does.


I think for the purpose of the discussion and helping the OP there is enough nutrients in anyone's aquarium to grow algae, especially in a well-lit one.


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## Hooked on fish (Dec 15, 2015)

Given enough sunlight Algae will grow in a 5 gallon bucket with only water.....

But, the general understanding is that plants have a specific need in nutrients and light.
If we give the plants what they need without excess, then they will outgrow the algae.
Too little or too much and there is an imbalance which gives algae a place to take hold.
Different algae take advantage of different things.
To some degree the type of algae you have can clue you in on what issue the tank is having.

For example:
Most of the time green spot algae and green dust algae can be controlled by controlling the length of intensity of the photo period.


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## jw.cS (Jan 13, 2005)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> High light alone does not cause algae, but high light+nutrients does.


I've recently gotten back to the hobby and have been reading a lot of your posts across the boards. In particular, I really enjoy and have witnessed your theory on trace toxicity, especially in extremely soft water ecosystems.

Will you kindly elaborate on this notion of high light vs. high light+nutrients as pertaining to algal growth and/or point me to some reading materials?

Very curious and highly interested. Thank you.


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## vols6 (Nov 16, 2015)

For me the simplest way to think of it is this: Your plants must be the dominant type of organism in your tank that grows via light/ferts/carbon. If you give them everything they need in a balanced way and have enough of them to soak up every available resource then you will have a much better time and enjoy the hobby more. Algae will exploit any possible opportunity that it can. Its outside of my scope of ability to measure, count and scrutinize every molecule of everything that goes in. Do research use common sense and be proactive and your planted tank will be a hobby and not a job.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

jw.cS said:


> I've recently gotten back to the hobby and have been reading a lot of your posts across the boards. In particular, I really enjoy and have witnessed your theory on trace toxicity, especially in extremely soft water ecosystems.
> 
> Will you kindly elaborate on this notion of high light vs. high light+nutrients as pertaining to algal growth and/or point me to some reading materials?
> 
> Very curious and highly interested. Thank you.


Trace toxicity can also occur in hard waters. The relatively high concentration of Ca, Mg, and other ions limit the uptake of trace nutrients which limits its toxic effects.

Generally, high light alone does not cause algae because algae also requires nutrients to grow. If these nutrients are absent or low, then algae will not be able to reproduce. If there are enough nutrients, but not enough to be toxic, then they will reproduce. If the nutrient concentration is toxic, then it can kill them.

If you search for algal blooms, you'll see that it's occurrence is due to the increase of the nutrient(s) that were limiting its growth. This same phenomenon also occurs in aquariums, but what's often limiting probably isn't what most people think it is. A lot of the algae in aquariums have a symbiotic relationship with bacteria. If the bacteria were limited, then the algae is limited. GDA, GSA, and BBA appear to have this relationship.

Lengthy discussion on BBA and bacterial symbiosis:
What exactly causes BBA? Part 2 - Bacterial imbalance | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Solcielo lawrencia, can you explain why people who use the EI fertilizing method, which puts all of the nutrients above what the plants will use, don't usually get algae attacks when they use high light, and also keep a clean, well maintained tank? Or, why algae, which, even when prolific in an aquarium have an extremely low mass, need more than minute amounts of nutrients to grow that mass? It is certainly true that algae need nutrients to grow, but I believe the nutrient concentration in the water that they need is much lower than that which the plants need to grow at all.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Hoppy said:


> Solcielo lawrencia, can you explain why people who use the EI fertilizing method, which puts all of the nutrients above what the plants will use, don't usually get algae attacks when they use high light, and also keep a clean, well maintained tank? Or, why algae, which, even when prolific in an aquarium have an extremely low mass, need more than minute amounts of nutrients to grow that mass? It is certainly true that algae need nutrients to grow, but I believe the nutrient concentration in the water that they need is much lower than that which the plants need to grow at all.


I don't think most people who use EI don't have issues with algae; I think this is the perception (based on making plausible arguments that sound convincing), but it is not reality. Thus, there is a very common and oft repeated perception that there are hundreds of people who've used EI "without issues". However, no one was ever polled to ask if they didn't have issues. It seems like most of the people who sing its praises have been using it for a couple of weeks and saw an improvement in plant growth, but it's certainly not long enough to assess long-term viability.

And again, dosing high levels of metals can prevent the growth of certain algae because... it's just too damn toxic for them to grow. If it's too toxic even for plants, then it's probably too toxic for them.

There are a lot of oft repeated myths in the hobby. 'High light + low CO2 = algae' is one common myth, which is why a lot of people believe that high light requires high CO2. But have you ever seen submerged aquatic plants growing in a lake or small body of water under full sunlight? I have. During these instances, my first thought was, "where's the algae?" because there wasn't any. Where is it getting it's CO2? This was some of the strongest evidence that the CO2 dogma is actually a myth, which has been perpetuated on an incorrect assumption about how planted aquaria works. Planted aquariums work just like all other bodies of water, natural and man-made.

Bump: Oh, and also, there are shrimp and fish that are very sensitive to high levels of traces. I've killed all of my ghost shrimp (my favorite shrimp) once I started dosing EI. Before, they were breeding with the little larvae surviving. But after dosing EI at even a fraction of the trace levels, they would die, sometimes within hours. I was convinced from all the reading on these forums that these level of traces were safe. But the shrimp just kept on dying. So I stopped buying ghost shrimp and got RCS which are much more tolerant. But then I recently lost half my population dosing less than EI levels of traces to combat a hair algae issue. After I removed all the moss, I realized that they weren't hiding as I first thought. I didn't see them because they were dead. And I lost almost all of the CBS as well. The remaining ones haven't bred, probably because their reproductive organs have been damaged.

And Otos? They're sensitive, too. Ever wonder why your Otos died so quickly, never lasting more than a couple of months? Because, you poisoned them by dosing high concentrations of heavy metals. Why are they so difficult to breed? Because the high concentrations of metals damaged their reproductive organs. It damages other organs such as their olfaction organs as well as their brains.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I have seen submerged aquatic plant's in nature covered with algae, while a few feet away ,same aquatic weed's are thriving.
I wade chest deep among these aquatic weed's while fishing each year.
Sediment's can and do produce organic/inorganic carbon(40 to 50 % of a plant's mass) and this ability help's the plant's grow in nature where ain't nobody injecting the gas.(must be enough for em)
Those weed's and other aquatic plant's that grow emmersed, as opposed to submerged in the wild, have near unlimited access to CO2 in the atmosphere at estimated nearly 300 to 400 PPM. Many also have the ability to store nutrient's and transport O2 throughout their structure as well as the carbon they can uptake from the sediment as mentioned,or that from the surrounding water whatever ppm it might be.
Nobody tryin to drive their growth at 100% (see lighting) so they grow at the rate they grow and no more.
Algae does not need anywhere near the nutrient or CO2 level's in order to thrive that the plant's need so when plant's are suffering,the algae thrives.
Focus on what plant's need to grow (not too much light,appropriate light,CO2,fertz and algae becomes less and less noticeable or of concern.
Plenty of folk's dosing EI level's of fertz which were designed initially with upward's of 5watt's per gallon (how long EI has been around ha! ha!) and CO2 level's pushing close to 50 ppm according to EI creator with ZERO issues. they been doin it many month's/year's.(some are very accomplished)
Yes,many struggle at first, but when light intensity does not exceed the CO2 availability and or nutrient supply,plant's will thrive in our tank's just as they do in nature.
Lot's of people are able to realize improved growth and health of plant's with no other measures being taken other than reducing the light energy.(reduces demand from plant's for more CO2 ,nutrient's)
And lot's of folk's have trouble with their plant's when they increase light energy but fail to increase CO2/nutrient's)
Plant's in nature are not subjected to bright sunlight day in /day out.
Sometimes cloudy or partially cloudy for day's/week's but yet the plant's survive.(some die off).
I pay little heed to those who make unsubstantiated claim's which clearly are falsified by real world application in thousand's of photo's,tank log's.
Either they are all lying with regard's to their CO2 level's/fertz,lighting, or they are tellin it like it is.
Your choice as to whose truth you wish to hitch your wagon to.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

roadmaster said:


> I pay little heed to those who make unsubstantiated claim's which clearly are falsified by real world application in thousand's of photo's,tank log's.
> Either they are all lying with regard's to their CO2 level's/fertz,lighting, or they are tellin it like it is.
> Your choice as to whose truth you wish to hitch your wagon to.


This is another oft repeated claim that is both misleading and false. When you show me a tank that has high levels of traces without issues, then you can use it as evidence to support your claim. For every one picture that you show me, there are a hundred threads all asking why their plants have issues or algae. And that one picture you present will probably actually show plant problems but you just haven't learned to identify them yet.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> ... For every one picture that you show me, there are a hundred threads all asking why their plants have issues or algae...


Maybe people should start posting "why are my plants doing so well" threads. :wink2:


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

brandonhauser said:


> The light is currently running full power, since that puts my par at the correct level for "high light." Am I doing something wrong and accidentally using too much light? Thanks in advance.


Have you tried less than full power? 85%-90% may help.
Look at light as the gas pedal in these situations.



houseofcards said:


> I think for the purpose of the discussion and helping the OP there is enough nutrients in anyone's aquarium to grow algae, especially in a well-lit one.


We all have algae to some degree, how we manage it is what counts.



Hooked on fish said:


> Given enough sunlight Algae will grow in a 5 gallon bucket with only water.....


My is this a true statement!
I provide water to farm animals in plastic drums cut in half.
They drink it and I fill it and the algae grows quite well.
I do not put nutrients in their drinking water either.


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## vols6 (Nov 16, 2015)

Anyone with a spare tank please try this experiment. Fill a tank with RO water and place a light on it with a plant or two. No nutrients no c02 etc and see exactly how fast that tank becomes an absolute algae nightmare. The whole point is that you can have any of these resources out of line with the others (light, co2, macros and micros, plant mass) and you will have problems. Not to mention tank maintenance. One common recurrence that I see over and over is people dosing e.I etc with super high light, dose excel etx and they have very very little plant mass to use it all up. Plant mass is by far the most overlooked of all elements of the equation imo. I have high light, dose pps pro and even add a little bit of extra micros, pump c02 hardcore and have very minimal algae. The little bit I do get is easily removed during a weekly 25-30% water change.


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## c9bug (Feb 15, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Thus, there is a very common and oft repeated perception that there are hundreds of people who've used EI "without issues". However, no one was ever polled to ask if they didn't have issues. It seems like most of the people who sing its praises have been using it for a couple of weeks and saw an improvement in plant growth, but it's certainly not long enough to assess long-term viability.
> 
> And Otos? They're sensitive, too. Ever wonder why your Otos died so quickly, never lasting more than a couple of months? Because, you poisoned them by dosing high concentrations of heavy metals. Why are they so difficult to breed? Because the high concentrations of metals damaged their reproductive organs. It damages other organs such as their olfaction organs as well as their brains.


I'm not sure it is fair to say that most people who used EI and decided it wasn't for them, but we don't know about it because it was never polled for. I'm sure if there was problems with EI there would be more topics about it. 

Also, I doubt "high light + CO2 = algae" is a myth. This has been the problem over and over on these forums. The way people fix it is by lowering the light or raising CO2. Lowering nutrients/ traces is not the solution in those cases. (although lowering sources of ammonia often is)

For the record, I have had otos survive for months in an EI dosed tank (they're still going too!) :smile2: They are just naturally fragile when getting used to a tank.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

c9bug said:


> For the record, I have had otos survive for months in an EI dosed tank (they're still going too!) :smile2: They are just naturally fragile when getting used to a tank.


I think otos are mostly wild caught, not tank raised. Wild caught fish can have problems with the catching process and the handling they get before we ever see them in the LFS. I have had both good and bad experiences with otos. Over the past several years mine have mostly all survived until I drain the tank to change the substrate for any reason. And, for all of that time I have been dosing per EI method.


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## RyRob (May 30, 2015)

There is no way you can compare any natural body of water whether it be a lake, stream, the ocean or a 30' square ft pond to any aquarium, the comparison just isn't there. That's why topics like this are discussed so we can attempt to create the best environment for our plants and animals. BUT, and I'm far from an expert here, you can't deny that ei works and works well. In my limited experience keeping plants, around 2 years, excess nutrients while following ei DO NOT lead to algae, it's trying to fix what isn't broken that screws up your system and the biggest thing people mess with is light. Why? Because we can visually see the difference immediately and we tend to think plants see light the same as humans so what seems like a dim tank, that very well may be more light than needed already, more light is added so it looks like high light to our eyes. In return, the plants demand more nutrition due to higher light and start to develop deficiencies so people start dosing fertilizer "x, y, and z" and then algae starts to form and they think that dosing the ferts caused it when in reality its just your table top ecosystem doing it's balancing act trying to stablize. So then we continue to screw with it until we come to the conclusion that excess fertilizers causes algae with no regards to light or co2. It's never just one thing that causes algae. 

Also, I think a lot of people tend to make assumptions on there tank parameters further leading to false information. Without using ro or distilled water and adding your own minerals and nutrients, you are pretty much at the mercy of your local water plant. My tds out of the tap is ~1200 with a ph of 7.7-8.2, gh 20+, kh 20+ and without knowing what is in it, how can I prepare a dosing regimen?And there is no point in weekly 50% water changes per ei if the water you are replacing, and then dosing, is already full of minerals and "nutrients"(plant wise). And that brings up another thing I think people tend to fib about. Their water change routine. I know when I skip a change, things start to go wrong and take way longer to fix than doing a water change would of taken. Remember, they key component in the ei method is the weekly 50% water change to reset the ferts in the tank. So maybe instead of saying excess nutrients cause algae, we should say that with prolonged excess nutrients and water changes under a certain percentage algae can and most likely with take affect, which is what ei remedies. The size of the tank, plant selection, substrate, water flow, shading, and many other factors go into what causes and remedies algae to point blame at one factor. What works for you may not work for me but to completely disregard a method of keeping aquatic plants that has been proven many many times for a longer time than most of us have been in the hobby is just plain ignorant. 

Like I said, I'm far from an expert on planted tanks but I tend to listen and learn from those who actually back up eveidence through years of personal reasearch, and the results of that research. I also think problems arise when people try to cut corners and go cheap. Trying to do something off track from the very successful tanks thinking it's going to work, then blaming the wrong cause and then trying to find the quick fix. I've pretty much come to understand a successful high light planted tank comes down to nutritious substrate, ample co2, ei level ferts, and light in which you can adjust intensity. If you have more than enough proper nutrition and co2 in clean water, your light is what drives everything. 

Not to mention dissolved organics coming from dying plants, driftwood, that people tend to overlook.


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