# How bad are the tannins?



## mallardman12 (Oct 29, 2011)

I was thinking about dirting my new tank, but I am scared of the tannins. I have had a really bad driftwood experience in the past, and really don't want to have to look at a brown tank again. I was thinking of using the Miracle grow organic stuff everybody uses, but I heard the tannins are bad. About how long and bad would it be in a 45 gallon tank?


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## Jaguar (Oct 13, 2011)

Bad... LOL... especially if you go out for Christmas and forget to do water changes like me. I'm sure they'd clear up after a while though.










I call it the coffee pot.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

Soil doesn't usually have much in the way of tannins. What muddies the water is particles of dirt itself. As long as you bury it deep under the gravel, it shouldn't be a problem.


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## Realistik84 (Sep 12, 2011)

Jaguar said:


> Bad... LOL... especially if you go out for Christmas and forget to do water changes like me. I'm sure they'd clear up after a while though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where did you get that owl? I effing love OWLS! 

and by the way - nobody told me dirt releases tannins :frown: - oh well....shall live by the sword and die by the sword I suppose.


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## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*Your "Tannins" Question*



mallardman12 said:


> I was thinking about dirting my new tank, but I am scared of the tannins. I have had a really bad driftwood experience in the past, and really don't want to have to look at a brown tank again. I was thinking of using the Miracle grow organic stuff everybody uses, but I heard the tannins are bad. About how long and bad would it be in a 45 gallon tank?


Hello mallard...

I resolved the driftwood "tannins" problem, by collecting pieces locally. If you can, the next nice day, check out the local river or lake area for driftwood. These pieces don't contain tannins and are easy to clean. My tanks are full of nice pieces, I've been able to find close to home. If not, plan a short trip and see what's available. Take care to research and obey any restrictions to this kind of activity.

I've used Miracle Grow in the past and IMO, it's more trouble than it's worth. The biggest problem I've had with it, is if you disturb it, you'll have material floating in the tank. The stuff does nourish the plants for several months, but the nutrients don't last indefinitely and I've noticed after several months, it starts to cloud the water a little.

I've used the potting mixture in my 45 G tall and if you do large, frequent water changes, it's not bad. I've used it in pots topped with pea gravel and the plants grow pretty well with it. It has some pro and cons like most of the other soils and substrates.

B


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Tannins are useful in some cases in lowering the pH of the water. Like tannins produced from Manzanita wood and from Indian Almond Leafs. Kinda work as buffering agents in shrimp tanks so often times the water will be lightly brown colored. But no where as bad as that picture .

Fast way to remove tannins is to just throw some Seachem Purigen into your filter.


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

I've been trying to get tannins, my driftwood and IAl release zero tannins :/


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

drain and soak the soil a few times it will help with the cloudiness. Also, getting an appropriate capping(1-3mm) material to keep the dirt from floating up helps as well. The nutrients do run out yes but by that time you should have accumulated enough mulm to "recharge" the dirt so to speak. it also helps to have material that is porous mixed in with the dirt like lava rocks(trying this with my next setup) or clay that have a high CEC to hold in the nutrients for longer. i think you should read diana walstad's book and do some research to see what other people have done with dirt. you will be surprised at how well it works.


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## mallardman12 (Oct 29, 2011)

Well I think that book might be a little over my head as I am only fourteen, but I do plan on reading it in the future. Would I just be better off not dirting it? I really just want to know when will it stop letting out the browness. The driftwood issue was because I didn't boil it, but with my new wood I boiled I should have no problems. I just no how much I hate brown water.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

I've done one WC on this tank, but it does have activated carbon in it. Soil tannins aren't bad at all....it's mainly wood and suspended particles ("muddied" look). I actually love the water color. Makes it seem like a pond.


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## mallardman12 (Oct 29, 2011)

Thanks for the pics! Is that using the Miracle grow stuff?


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

This one I set up on 12/15 is using MGOPM (this stuff right here) with a cap of Black Diamond blasting grit, yes.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I used Miracle Grow Organic Soil and it is noticeable but not bothersome. Honestly, if I took a picture, you couldn't even tell. I have seen single pieces of small driftwood do much more to my tanks.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> I used Miracle Grow Organic Soil and it is noticeable but not bothersome. Honestly, if I took a picture, you couldn't even tell. I have seen single pieces of small driftwood do much more to my tanks.


Yep. Grapevine is especially bad for this.


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## mallardman12 (Oct 29, 2011)

Ha, my Mopani was horrifying. The tannins just stopped after 7 months.


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## Jaguar (Oct 13, 2011)

Realistik84 said:


> Where did you get that owl? I effing love OWLS!
> 
> and by the way - nobody told me dirt releases tannins :frown: - oh well....shall live by the sword and die by the sword I suppose.


That owl is from Winners, it's the Canadian version of HomeGoods, TJ Maxx, etc. I have 4 or 5 different owls around the house.

There could be a little bit of tannin release from the piece of wood but I'm sure most of it is from the dirt, cause I had that piece of wood soaking in a sink for 3 months and it never got that dark.


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## CmLaracy (Jan 7, 2007)

purigen does wonders when it comes to tannins FWIW. And activated carbon for a week or so just while the tannins are leeching wont harm the tank, Amano starts most of his tanks with activated carbon. It's continuing to use carbon that really harms the system.


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## mallardman12 (Oct 29, 2011)

I use carbon filter pads in my 20 gallon now for a year... Is that gunna be a problem?


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## Realistik84 (Sep 12, 2011)

mallardman12 said:


> Well I think that book might be a little over my head as I am only fourteen, but I do plan on reading it in the future. Would I just be better off not dirting it? I really just want to know when will it stop letting out the browness. The driftwood issue was because I didn't boil it, but with my new wood I boiled I should have no problems. I just no how much I hate brown water.


 
You cant read a book on fish tanks at 14? LOL - dont they teach you Algebra at that age? Which is more complicated :icon_bigg - Just messing bud. 

Stick with the hobby - One thing I have learned is sometimes just letting these kinds of problems resolve themselves is better as when you add what you believe to be solutions it further complicates the issue.


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## mallardman12 (Oct 29, 2011)

Surprisingly I have a 100 average in advanced algebra 1 and 8th grade physics  I heard the book was a little complicated. Anywho, I will be dirting the tank now I'm just looking for something nice to cap with. Thanks for all the help everyone!


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

mallardman12 said:


> I use carbon filter pads in my 20 gallon now for a year... Is that gunna be a problem?


Take what others say with a grain of salt.

Activated carbon isn't bad unless you forget to change it monthly. Unlike purigen, when carbon absorbs all the crap it can, it will slowly leech them back into the tank. Also, activated carbon will leech phosphates back into the tank as well, assuming you don't change it.

Other besides that "negative" (which, let's be honest: if you forget to change your carbon it's your fault and not the products fault. If you never did a water change do you blame the fish for killing themselves?) carbon isn't harmful in your tank. Carbon will remove medications you put into the tank, which is why they say to remove any carbon filters when treating for ich or what not. Activated carbon works much like purigen, it will remove tannins and suck up nitrites/nitrates/ammonia. Only purigen won't leech it back out. That's the only difference.

While some argue carbon isn't really "needed" in a planted tank (as filter wool will provide biological filtration, as will plants) I find it's nice to have to help keep the water clearer, something biological filtration will not easily do.


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> Take what others say with a grain of salt.
> 
> Activated carbon isn't bad unless you forget to change it monthly. Unlike purigen, when carbon absorbs all the crap it can, it will slowly leech them back into the tank. Also, activated carbon will leech phosphates back into the tank as well, assuming you don't change it.
> 
> ...


Oh crap, i never change my aqueon filter pads for over a year now... Is that bad?
i never knew those carbon will release all the bad stuff it absorb... All in my head was the carbon granules will become "baceria housing" like bio media.


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## raven_wilde (Jul 12, 2006)

mallardman12 said:


> Well I think that book might be a little over my head as I am only fourteen, but I do plan on reading it in the future.


Don't let being 14 hold you back... if you are on this forum I'm sure you can handle walstad's book. Also, remember, if you run into something that you don't understand you have an internet full of people you can ask about it


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

sayurasem said:


> Oh crap, i never change my aqueon filter pads for over a year now... Is that bad?
> i never knew those carbon will release all the bad stuff it absorb... All in my head was the carbon granules will become "baceria housing" like bio media.


Uh... yea having unchanged carbon for that long is pretty bad. That's not something you want to skimp on. What you don't wanna do is do a large WC and change your carbon out at the same time. That causes lot of stress.

If you use plain filter wool or ceramic filler, those you don't have to switch out often. Only when it get's insanely gross.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

mallardman12 said:


> Surprisingly I have a 100 average in advanced algebra 1 and 8th grade physics  I heard the book was a little complicated. Anywho, I will be dirting the tank now I'm just looking for something nice to cap with. Thanks for all the help everyone!


Black Diamond and Pool Filter Sand (PFS) are two very nice options that are commonly used. There are also a plethora of different size/textured/colored sands out there. CaribSea has a nice line but I've never used them. I much rather a 50lb bag for $8-10.


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## mallardman12 (Oct 29, 2011)

How about play sand?


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

It has a very small, light granule size and as a result has a tendency to compact easily and is also very easily disturbed. It also requires a very good bit of rinsing and extremely careful filling to avoid completely clouding up your water. I used it in a tank with a striped raphael catfish (about 3" at the time) and it could really dust up the place if startled.


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