# Just another 20 Gallon mess...



## Bree

So this is my first planted tank. Its a regular 20 gallon tall created by a person with no idea what she is doing apparently...

Basically after months and months of tampering with the setup, even getting new substrate a few times and spending WAY to much money on the whole setup, i am still lost. I have come to you for help and ideas, below is the tank ( :angryfire ) as it is right now, i have flourite dark as the substrate, water wisteria taking up almost the whole left side along with moneywort, amazon sword and 2 other kinds of plants i don't know the names of. The piece of driftwood i ordered from big als i put on its side even though there is now a slate piece against the glass...

I was thinking of getting dwarf hair grass and cover the rest of the open gravel places, sorta like a forest with a meadow on the right. Problem is my LPS 'has been ordering' the many plants i have places with them for about 1/2 year, everytime i go in there they say it will be on its way soon...But it never is...

All that aside i will now let you say what you think, all bad (and good) thoughts are welcome, HELP!


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## Bree

Oh and i will post my tanks specs if that helps at all:

Aquatic Life T5-HO fixture with 48 watts total.
Penn-Plax cascade 500 canister filter.
I dose with the whole flourish line minus trace.
I have 6 black skirt tetras, 5 neons, 5 peppered corys, and 2 aldolfi corys.
Temp. is at 76 degrees F.
Plants are in my above post.

And the plants on the right back are just there right now because i have nowhere else to put them...


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## Danh Vu

The thermometer is intrusive. Try moving it.

Also, try to top off your water because it is getting low. 
Don't forget to trim your plants. It looks like a great tank!


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## Chafire

I think your tank looks great! sooner or later you'll get the ground cover. The one thing that stands out to me is the background (atleast its not a picture of plants) have you considered painting it a blue or black. But honestly its not that noticable.


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## Bree

Thanks you two! Thats funny, i normally have the thermometer hidden, but i just moved it to where it is, i will move it back though!

I am keeping the water level down where it is for now because i haven't a top on the tank yet, and am afraid if the water is to the top like normal my fish will feel the greater need to jump ship. ^^

I have thought of putting a black BG on it, but i am afraid it will become to dark? And i find the one i have on now looks relatively natural and doesn't draw any attention to it...But then again you noticed it. lol
I will again think about trying out the black BG, maybe now that my substrate is not black it will not look so depressing.


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## Noahma

I second the water top off  I usually bring the water right up to the top of the rim with my open top tanks. 

A black background would help the plants pop more. A contrasting plant to the light green you have would be good, maybe a Red Tiger Lotus, or similar shade of red plant. of course a good carpet will finish off the tank. It looks great the way it is  Just a tiny bit of tweaking.


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## Bree

The tiger lotus looks beautiful! But can i meet the plants requirements? I haven't CO2 nor high light (I assume i have moderate lighting) I do also have a red plant in the middle of the green plants to the left although now that i look at the picture, i can't even see it! The red plant was given to me by a very nice individual when he did a trimming on his tank.
I believe it is Red Hygrophila...Or something like it anywho. I am hoping to grow that trimming out till i get a nice amount of them, i just hope i can look after it!


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## Noahma

I think the Red tiger lotus would survive, Many people have kept them even in low light tanks. A small group of Red Ludwiga might look good too, it will do decent in lower light tanks too (I had some in my 36 gal low light at once point)


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## Bree

Awesome thanks for that! Good news is that my fanwort (i think thats what it is) has been turning red at its top, thats very exiting for me, i have had horrible luck with plants up until now and so signs of these guys not dieing on me..Well that makes me very happy!!

By the way, your tanks are fabulous! Your 5.5 looks so much bigger than what it is, my poor 5 gallon is just sitting there will some dead looking plants in it and a couple of fish. I hope to go to Home depot and get a light fixture for it, then i may be able to grow something! lol


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## Hilde

Instead of a Tiger lotus I would get a dwarf lily. You can get 2 bulbs at Wal-mart for a few dollars. It can be trained to stay low. I think sagittaria subulata would look good in there.


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## chicken

The left side of the tank, and the driftwood look great. I agree that a plain black background would look nice. If you're going to keep the stems in the back right, trim them to encourage them to branch out become bushy.

Dwarf hairgrass or some other ground cover might look good in the front right. Hemianthus micranthemoides might look good. If you're not having any luck with your LPS getting the plants you need, you might consider posting a "Wanted to Buy" post in the Swap and Shop.


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## Bree

Hmm, are the lilys you are talking about come in a box, or in the fish section? Because we made the Walmart up here get rid of there fish. ^^

Sadly i live way up in northern Canada, in the Yukon, and literally the only person i know that has a planted aquarium other than me is a person i just met a few weeks ago...
So i don't suppose i would have much luck with that. lol Thanks though!!

And i know, i have let the wisteria grow a little long, i started all my wisteria with just a few sad looking stems i bought from the fish store a few months back. lol

So for today i will try out a back background, trim my plants, top off the water, move the thermometer, and head down to the fish store for the thousandth time and complain. lol


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> Hmm, are the lilys you are talking about come in a box
> 
> Sadly i live way up in northern Canada, in the Yukon, and literally the only person i know that has a planted aquarium other than me is a person i just met a few weeks ago...


The lillys come in a bag in the pet section. I will send you some if they don't have them. Just reimburse after you get them. Probably about $6.

Post a thread to seek those near you.

For background I tape material on the back with Gorilla tape. Cheap and easy to change.


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## Bree

Hmm..I think i know what you are talking about, the lilys are beside the pet section with the other flowers. lol They should be in stores in a month or two, can't wait!!

Ya, i never thought of fabric, i have some black poster board though, thats what i used for my mini 1.5 gallon a little while ago, i shall go see if i have enough...If not, i will be heading to staples as well this afternoon. lol

Well i just finished the trimming of plants and i rearranged some of them as well, i will post a picture in a minute...


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## Bree

Here is what it looks like now: 
(Have to go and get the black poster board in alittle while though.)


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## Hilde

Looking better! Didn't even know you had the nice red plant before. Now you just need some foreground for the right side. How about a few rocks from outside or a Dollar Tree store? Then some moss on top of it. I will see if I have some to send after rescaping my moss.


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## Bree

Haha i know, the poor plant was stuck in the back not scene! I hope it bushes out more though...
Hmmm, i do have some java moss in my 5 gallon just sorta hanging around, i could look into that going in the scape? I love the look of petrified wood, i hope the pet store has some when i go down there, i will be getting a couple pieces for my 5 gallon if they aren't to pricey. 
I should post a picture of the original scape of this 20 gallon tank. lol You will get a kick out of it i'm sure.

Would you really do that? Like send me a few plants? I do live in the Yukon remember, way up in northern Canada, shipping rates are pretty bad. I would pay for shipping of course, but i'd have to see just how much that would be! ^^


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> Would you really do that? Like send me a few plants? I would pay for shipping of course.


Just Taiwan moss. If I have some left after taking it off its present holder to form trees. For I love your scape.


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## Bree

That moss looks lovely to work with! Well i am going to be going to the store in a little while, so i will update when i get back! lol


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## Bree

Oh goodness. 

Well i am now back from the petstore, with what do you know... 3 new fish! Haha
Why must i do this to myself, they were just to cute to pass up! lol

Well i talked to the store owner (who i know very well) and he apologized for him ordering the plants so late, and said that he will be ordering my plants next week! Yay!!

Sadly there was no petrified wood, but i will be going to walmart and Canadian tire tomorrow i think and taking a look at the stuff they have there.

Have any of you had honey gouramis? I bought 2 males and they are getting along very well (i was worried about them being a bit aggressive) but in fact they won't separate from each other, they swim side by side! And i bought a new beautiful yellow and black betta for my little tank i set up and gave to my mother a while back. So far all the fish are doing very well!


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> He apologized for him ordering the plants so late


So what plants did you order?


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## Bree

Well i have 1 pot of HC (i love it, but i doubt it will grow for me seeing as i haven't any CO2 other than Excel) 2 pots of Dwarf hairgrass for this tank, and another plant that i forget the name of! lol I believe it is either fanwort or a plant that closely resemples the plant. lol


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> 1 pot of HC
> 2 pots of Dwarf hairgrass


Perhaps if you dose with KNO3 and some root tabs they would live. Have seen at some Lowe's store Spectricide stump remover that is 100% KNO3. Heard some states don't allow it to be sold. Then you could Osmocote plus tabs. If can't find the tabs you could get Osmocote® Outdoor & Indoor Smart-Release® Plant Food and make root tabs. Health food stores sell empty capsules that you could put it in. Other here have used this product. You could cause ammonia problem if you added way to much. bloo is using it.


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## Bree

Wow thanks for that, never really thought of looking at that kind of thing! I does all the seachem products with a schedule, i also have root tabs, but i pay $20 for a 10 pack, so i use those wisely. lol And since i have the flourite gravel it takes in nutients, so i could add a root tab when i plant them? But still, i heard that HC has heavy CO2 needs?


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## Danh Vu

There are a couple root tabs for sale is the sns here. Plenty for much cheaper. 
Grow your stem plants out, cut them, replant, repeat until you have around five stems. Individual stems don't become bushy on their own. So far, so good. I can't wait to see this tank progress.


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## Noahma

Bree said:


> Awesome thanks for that! Good news is that my fanwort (i think thats what it is) has been turning red at its top, thats very exiting for me, i have had horrible luck with plants up until now and so signs of these guys not dieing on me..Well that makes me very happy!!
> 
> By the way, your tanks are fabulous! Your 5.5 looks so much bigger than what it is, my poor 5 gallon is just sitting there will some dead looking plants in it and a couple of fish. I hope to go to Home depot and get a light fixture for it, then i may be able to grow something! lol


Thanks for the compliment, The 5.5 actually got replaced with a 10 gal a while ago. The 5.5 is going to a friend who needs a new home for her betta. I am very happy with the 10 gal, it is a half high light, half low light lol. I am going to replace one plant in the ten gal, which would be the very far left of the tank. I do have some algae in that tank, probably due to lack of flow because of the hedge bush. 



Bree said:


> Hmm, are the lilys you are talking about come in a box, or in the fish section? Because we made the Walmart up here get rid of there fish. ^^
> 
> Sadly i live way up in northern Canada, in the Yukon, and literally the only person i know that has a planted aquarium other than me is a person i just met a few weeks ago...
> So i don't suppose i would have much luck with that. lol Thanks though!!
> 
> And i know, i have let the wisteria grow a little long, i started all my wisteria with just a few sad looking stems i bought from the fish store a few months back. lol
> 
> So for today i will try out a back background, trim my plants, top off the water, move the thermometer, and head down to the fish store for the thousandth time and complain. lol


There are many companies that sell the Red Tiger Lotus online, if you get one of the "Beta bulb" packages, they will have some lotus bulbs, but it may not be the tiger lotus, it may be one of the other many species of lotus (which are all beautiful) I have a red tiger lotus, and a couple of other lotus that are copper in color, some are green ect.


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> I does all the seachem products.
> 
> I heard that HC has heavy CO2 needs?


So you have Seachem nitrogen? If so increase that.

I had the HC growing in my low tech. I found that soda water helps it to grow. I think about 10ml daily would help. Make certain you get the soda water without sodium. This is an idea I got from javatank


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## Bree

Danh- Awesome, thanks, i will check out the root tabs! And thanks, i will keep doing that!

Noahma- Hmm, will check out those betta bulbs, they sound interesting, i was looking up lotus plants, they look amazing, i would love something like that, my gouramis and betta's would love them, only i am worried they would block out to much light for the carpet plants?

Hilde- Yup, i dose with nitrogen, that is so weird though, soda water eh? i'll check out the link and read more on it, sounds very interesting, i have a couple weeks probably before the plants come in, so that plenty of time to gather more info!

I was thinking for the HC i would start it with the dry start in my bettas 5 gallon. I have a spare 1.5 gallon i could put him in till the HC grew out more. Although my betta won't be happy about it. lol


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## seadreamer

> Sadly i live way up in northern Canada, in the Yukon, and literally the only person i know that has a planted aquarium other than me is a person i just met a few weeks ago...


LOL, you don't have to live way up in the Yukon to have this problem. I live in a large city in middle America and know nobody at all with one so you're doing better than I am. 

I love the wood amongst the lush growth. You might try grouping those three stems together instead of spread apart and see how you like it. But it still looks great as is.


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## Bree

Wow really? It can just get rather frustrating here, because we are down to only have one petstore, that is a tiny family run one. And ya...

But anywho, while we wait for the plants to arrive *crosses fingers* I would like to ask something:
I am trying to find a way to run a DIY CO2 system in my little 5 gallon that will hopefully be housing my HC. Question is, i need help with the diffuser, i would prefer to get one of those pretty glass ones, but are they good enough for DIY? Or will the gas not be 'strong' enough to make it through the holes? And even if they are, where can i find one for sale that will ship up here? If not how can i am a nice simple. small diffuser that can go in the tank?


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> I am trying to find a way to run a DIY CO2 system in my little 5 gallon i would prefer to get one of those pretty glass ones, but are they good enough for DIY?


Some get it to work with those diffusers some don't. I have one. I will send it to you for the shipping cost, for it didn't work for me. I got it for $5 on EBay from Asia. They send a lot of items out with no shipping cost. Might be cheaper for you to get one on EBay. Most have success with a wood diffuser or try something with toothpicks.


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## chicken

In my 2.5 gallon, I just feed the co2 tube into the filter intake, and that works just fine.


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## Bree

Really? May i have a picture of the diffuser? I would love to check that out!

I was thinking of just putting the CO2 through the filter, but so far, i don't have a filter that works for the 5 gallon, all the ones i have bought are just to strong for my poor betta!

UPDATE:

Well, no good news i am afraid, plants aren't in yet, and worst of all, i am having an algae problem, never have algae before so i am confused as to what to do! The one kind appears to be green springy patches on my larger leaves, and theres another kind that is all over my leaves and spray bar. It looks like a build up of toons of iron on the spray bar, likes its that orange colour, and its a dark brown colour on the leaves, it comes off with a bit of rubbing, but spreads like crazy, and all my plants look like they are melting because of it!! Please help, what do i do?!

I stopped dosing nitrogen and upped my excel a little bit as well as the weekly 25% water change, then tried to rub as much of it off the plants...
Not looking any better though..


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## Hilde

Can you post a pic of the plants with algae?

Read that the downfall of having the co2 go directly into your filter intake it decreases life time of your filter. For causes strain on the impeller blades and shaft housings. Plus there is the effect of co2 on plastic and the rubber bushings at the ends of the impeller shafts.

I have this glass diffuser minus the pipe.

When I had a betta in a 10 gallon tank I decreased the water flow of the HOB filter (hang on back) with plastic. Cut a coke bottle ends off and then cut it lengthwise. Then taped the top on the of the filter. The bottom curl went under the output. You can also decrease the outflow with a pre filter.

In my tank I have algae when nitrogen is unbalanced. When it was low I dosed with KNO3. Now it seems to be on the high side. Correct that by changing water using 1 gallon of distilled water. Have you checked your nitrates?


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## Bree

Well heres a picture of some of it, i wiped it off after i took the shot though. And can't get a decent one on the plants, i will keep trying though. 

That looks like a nice diffuser, never scene it before. Do you Need the pipe to make it run properly?

I don't have a test kit for that, so i don't know...They don't sell them in town. Do i need to test or can i tell what o do just by the algae? Sorry if that sounds silly.

Thats exactly what i did to my filter, but it was to stop to splashing sound when it hit the water. Haha


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## Bree

And KNO3 is potassium nitrate right? If so i will put in a teaspoon of potassium and a little bit of nitrogen? Or how ever much you may think would be good. I would love to get rid of this algae!


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> And KNO3 is potassium nitrate right? If so i will put in a teaspoon of potassium and a little bit of nitrogen?


I am still thinking that you need to dose KNO3, potassium nitrate. It comes mixed together. I found that the spectricide stump remover is 100% KNO3. You have to make a solution of 1Tbsp of KNO3 with 1cup of water. Then dose 5ml daily for a week. Then dose weekly. 

The diffuser I have seen just connect to bottle of diy Co2 with tubing. Here is an interesting jello recipe for Co2.


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## Bree

Here are more pictures i just took:


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## Bree

Spectricide stump remover...That sounds kind of ominous. lol
I will look for it, but what if i cannot find it? Just dose what i have now?
And is there a specific brand or something i should look for when it comes to the stump remover?


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> Spectricide stump remover..What if i cannot find it?
> Just dose what i have now?


What brand of KNO3 do you have, liquid or dry?


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## Bree

I only have the flourish line. So liquid, but its not KNO3, just K and... (my chemistry is off) Nitrogen. As well as the rest of the line.


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## Hilde

Bump! double posted.


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> I only have the flourish line. So liquid, but just K


Seachem K is potassium sulfate. You need Seachem nitrogen, potassium nitrates. May be cheaper on Ebay, considering the cost of gas.


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## Bree

Okay, well i do have the seachem nitrogen... ahh, sorry i am confused, so the seachem ferts i have will do the trick or no?


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> Okay, well i do have the seachem nitrogen


Great! One less item to buy. I just suggested the other for it is easy to find for some. Only 1 store, which is not near me, carries Seachem products. Thus I buy on line. Dry products last longer.


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## Bree

Ya, i bought each seachem product online, everything but the fish, plants and tank i have ordered! Well i went and looked for the stump remover and had no luck, but did FINALLY find some organic soil that i can use in my 5 gallon, so i will be starting a new thread soon about that i hope!!


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> Ya, i bought each seachem product online.
> Well i went and looked for the stump remover and had no luck
> Found some organic soil that i can use in my 5 gallon


For products on line did you compare against EBay?
Stump remover can be used to make fireworks thus not sold in every state.
Is the organic soil top soil from a hardware store?
So you have a 20 G long and a 5 gallon? Do both have fauna?


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## Bree

Oh, well fireworks are illegal up here in the Yukon. So that may explain it. haha
I can't buy from ebay, big als is the only website i have found that will ship up here, free shipping too!!!

Yup, my 5 gallon is my bettas house, it has my trimming's from the 20 gallon just floating around. It looking horrible, and it has a horrible, horrible light over it that just came with the tank. I'm honestly surprised anything is alive in there because of that light. I'm looking for a cheap way to replace it and get really bright light in there as well as C02 so i can grow HC. 

This thread is for the 20 gallon, and i have a 1.5 nano tank that is also planted, but only with java moss, that tank is in my mothers living room, she loved it so i gave it to her with a baby betta and a snail. ^^


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> 5 gallon is my bettas house, it has my trimming's from the 20 gallon. It has a horrible, horrible light over it that just came with the tank. I'm looking for a cheap way to replace it and get really bright light in there as well as C02 so i can grow HC.


HC grows better, from what I have read, if you do a dry start. Dry start method means the roots are wet, but the leaves are up in the air. Allows the leaves to remain in contact with the air above for good CO2/O2 exchange. The substrate is barely covered with water. The tank is covered and the plants are misted. Perhaps a clip on light with a CFL bulb (twisted house bulbs) rated daylight would help. Then there are also some desk lamps that take fluorescent bulbs. Perhaps you have a bucket you could do this in.


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## Bree

Thats my plan! I have been reading about the dry start for awhile now, its what i've decided to do. My betta won't like it because he will be stuck in a little 1.5 gallon spare tank i used for the newt babys years ago. lol

Never thought of using a bucket...Hmm, that would be awesome, i will look into that, thanks!!

And i've been looking everywhere for a light fixture, just a dest lamp or something, but all i can find are those little pastic, over priced L.E.D ones that don't put out hardly any light at all... 
I did find some nice bubls though:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/123042-light-fixture-help-2.html

-Post #22.

Oh haha, looks like you were on my board there as well!


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> Never thought of using a bucket..


Perhaps a container that is semi-clear and put it in a sunny window.


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## Bree

I live in the Yukon...Its the middle of winter. Its dark all day and night until summer comes, then there is only 3 hours of darkness, my poor beardie went crazy when he was a baby because he couldn't understand the weather, same with all the other animals that have been brought up here from some other place. lol

Anywho....So i am afraid i am having to use lamps and everything for all that i have here, natural would be soo nice though.

Oh and do you know if maybe getting more oto's would help with my algae problem? Because the darn stuff is getting worse and worse...


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> Oh and do you know if maybe getting more oto's would help with my algae problem? Because the darn stuff is getting worse and worse...


Ottos didn't help me with algae. Was told they only eat hair algae. You have diatoms which is normal in a new tank. Doing water changes every 3 days with distilled water helps. Took a quick look at You tube and saw some make distilled water at home. Also you should increase Excel and nitrogen dossing. Just have to slowly increase the Excel for it can affect the fauna. Fish go to the top when it starts getting to much for them. Forgot what fauna is in the 20G long? Thinking up to 10ml of Excel and 5ml of nitrogen daily until the algae starts decreasing. Is it affecting the plant growth?


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## Bree

Wow, that much hey? Right now i only dose 1.5 ml excel everyday except on Monday which gets 5 ml after water change, and 2 ml nitrogen 2x week. lol Okay, i will up the dose and watch the fish. 
I have 6 black skirt tetras, 2 honey gourami, 6 corys, i oto, 4 neons. The corys and neons are finding new homes, as well as the black skirts if i can find them a new home as well...

And well, the plants still seem to be growing, but the parts that are covered in the algae are dieing...It looks really depressing....

And its not just diatoms, i also see like green stubble on the leaves, which i can't whip off. Thats the stuff that is bothering me the most.

Well i just changed the gravel, i guess thats what has caused this algae to come up now hey? I used all the old tank water and all decor, and everything, i was hoping that would be enough. this tank has been setup and running since July this year. lol


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## Betta Maniac

Bree said:


> Basically after months and months of tampering with the setup, even getting new substrate a few times and spending WAY to much money on the whole setup, i am still lost. I have come to you for help and ideas, below is the tank ( :angryfire ) as it is right now,


I think it looks like a really nice start. I'd try and build up the stems in the back and maybe get some groundcover going in the foreground, but it doesn't seem to me that you've got major problems. I like it!


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## Bree

Thanks! Your tanks are amazing by the way! I always so amazed as to how easy this aquascaping comes for some!



I was looking at media to put in my canister filer, and what do you think i should get?

http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/h...x+Phosphate+Remover+-+3-100+Gram+Pouches.html

^That one i think will be the best, what do you think, will this help with getting rid of algae? It says it will..?

The other product i thought i would put is just the bio rings linked below, that way all the poo will be taken out with that.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/hg-frbiom/Hagen+Fluval+Biomax+Media+-+500+Gram.html

I have the penn- plax cascade 500 canister filter by the way, with 2 trays only.


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## Bree

Well bad news...Again.

I just phoned the petstore, and they have not yet ordered the plants, so i will be heading down there to trade in the corys anyways...As i talk to them, yet again about ordering the plants. Ugh, its amazing how much i have to fight with them to give them a bit of business! lol


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> I was looking at media to put in my canister filer, and what do you think i should get?


The 1st says it removes nitrates and you need nitrates.

I just buy the blue filter pads and cut them to fit.


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## Bree

Ya, thats what i thought, its just that it said:

"Clearmax reduces many of the compounds that encourage unsightly algae growth."

So ya, i got caught in the light like a deer. lol

Well i tore up my tank and removed the plants that the algae has killed, totally wiped down the rest and literally put everything on the other side with the spray bar pointing down at the plants so that there is more movment and the algae doesn't get a good foot hold again. 

Wish me luck, and i will post updated pictures tomorrow evening. ^^


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## Bree

So here is the updated picture...Horrible picture but ya, you can still see all the algae on the back wall, i can't get rid of it. Its a green stubble type that is very hard to get off. I've only been dosing excel lately. And i have filter media on its way.


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## Noahma

Grab a few amano shrimp and see if they will take care of it?


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## Bree

Sadly, the petstore up here does not carry shrimp of any kind, and when i asked, they didn't even know what i was talking about... :iamwithst
And they are out of stock in the oto tank.

I'd love some shrimp though...:icon_frow


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## Bree

Whats funny is that my honey gouramis are munching on the algae, i haven't fed them for 4 days now but they are still fat, pooping and happy! They are nibbling on the tank sides and plants with the bad algae. 

So i sorta bought 2 more, and brought back all 5 peppered corys because they weren't helping at all.

Its cute watching these 4 little honeys, they literally school together, always swimming around, nibbling and when ever i put my hands in the tank, all of them come to me and start 'picking' at my skin. Super funny!


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> Well i just changed the gravel, i guess thats what has caused this algae to come up.


Yes! Most put some of the old gravel in a bag in the tank. In fact lauraleellbp vacuums the mulm up before removing old substrate. Then she puts the mulm down before putting down new substrate.

Oh, and the set up looks good. Very interesting piece of wood.


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## Bree

Ya, thats what i thought, and i changed the light just a few days before the substrate, i kept all the tank water, and made sure the filter was dirty. But i guess it was not enough. Well thats good news i guess, so as soon as the substrate gets some more bacteria in it the algae should pretty much go away! Sweet!

And ya, i am not very happy with how it looks though...I prefer it on the left side of the tank, soon as i can find some slate or natural, but flat looking rocks that go with the gravel i will be changing it back i think, i am going to make a discrete 'barrier' type of thing between the forest and the hopefully soon to be dwarf hairgrass valley. lol
Then i will get rid of the water wisteria, and i am eying at narrow leaf java fern and something else instead.


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> i guess, so as soon as the substrate gets some more bacteria in it the algae should pretty much go away.


Don't forget to dose 5ml of Excel daily.


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## Bree

Don't worry about that! I'm dosing with excel, and have upped the water changes to 2-3 a week. This algae should be gone in no time (i hope)!!!


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## Danh Vu

Also, a nice mid-ground plant would look nice on the right side of the empty space in the middle. I'd say slope the substrate (if you had enough) the next time you rescape. Makes me jealous of my tanks... Good job! I hope the algae begs for your mercy :icon_twis


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## Bree

Yuppers, we think alike! i am going to slop it up the driftwood side, and fill the driftwood inas the forest, separate d it a bit with some slate or something, then have the valley of dwarf HG.


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## Bree

Well, its been almost a month since i last updated. 

Still no new plants...What a shocker. 
All my water wisteria and moneywort died due to the algae problem...But my Cabomba however is doing great, and is the last plant in the tank minus the super algae covered red plant, i can't get myself to get rid of it...

But the algae is going away slowly. I got 2 SAE's which i think have helped a little, lowered the light to only 6 hours a day, sometimes more like 8 though. And have added DIY CO2.

I might have to give up this planted tank hobby though, i have spent to much on it ($700) and can't even find plants to put in the tank! Its amazing really, i have to pretty much scream at the petstore to take my money and they won't!!

Anyways, i might just be in a downer and all, i've just had one problem after another, does it get any easier?! lol

I will try to post a picture soon, it looks terrible though- just a warning.


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## Bree

Okay so i have given up on the Petstore getting in plants, they have basically finally admitted that they are not planning on ordering them after all these months. So i have to make due with the plants i have now...

So i changed the scape around about an hour ago and as much as i don't like it i will post a picture, please, i need suggestions!


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## ADA

Bree said:


> Okay so i have given up on the Petstore getting in plants, they have basically finally admitted that they are not planning on ordering them after all these months. So i have to make due with the plants i have now...
> 
> So i changed the scape around about an hour ago and as much as i don't like it i will post a picture, please, i need suggestions!


I love the new scape! The wood looks a lot better to me, how you have it now.


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## Hilde

Not a bad start. Just need something low. Perhaps some wood or rocks. Could buy from this site some Marsh Pennywort or Sagittaria subulata. Most send more than you pay for. Oh, forgot your in Canada. Then posting wtb in Canada etc. would best to post. Doing a members search, advanced, I see there are some members whom live in Canada.


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## !shadow!

l don't think you should give up on the hobby. l know it's not easy when you start off but over time when you gain experience you'll be glad you stayed, except for the money pit exception . I would gladly give you plants but l don't know how customs is and whatnot.


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## Bree

So here is another updated picture...



Have any ideas as to what i should do with this? I would really appreciate any suggestions!


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## Bree

And i would like to point out just how well those plants are growing, i have trimmed them twice in a week now and its almost time to trim again, i am loving these plants! But what i really, REALLY need is some other kind of plant i think for the BG and the foreground just to give some contrast...Any suggestions on the plant types? I can get amazon sword, vallisneria, and maybe some other kinds, please give me some opinions!


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## karatekid14

Is that a nova extreme 2x24watt? Do you like it? The tank looks great!


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## karatekid14

Oh sorry ignore that, I saw the post below the first.


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## Bree

Haha its okay, i was actually going between the nova and this aquaticlife one i bought, they both have very good reviews, i just bought this one in the end because the price gave a better deal in my opinion! lol


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> Any suggestions on the plant types?


I previous suggested some wood or rocks. 

For plants:
Marsh Pennywort 
Sagittaria subulata
Echinodorus tenellus
Eleocharis acicularis


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## Bree

Ya...I have to wait for summer to get the rocks...I am really wanting to find some slate pieces at home depot or something..No luck yet. And the wood is very expensive.

Dwarf hairgrass is coming.. Hopefully, i really want to get that plant!

Oh wow, that marsh pennywort is lovely!! I must try and beg for that at the petstore (again though, the store only supply's plants in the summer..)


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## Bree

Been awhile since i last posted, not much has changed with this tank, the fanwort is just overgrown everything, and i am at a lost as to what to do with all the plants now! lol

Some awesome news- the local Canadian Tire has gotten those plant bulbs in, so does anyone know which bulbs i can get to grow underwater? They have some lily's...And a bunch of other kinds of plant bulbs as well, just wanted to ask you guys first before buying!


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> i am at a lost as to what to do with all the plants now! lol
> 
> the local Canadian Tire has gotten those plant bulbs in, so does anyone know which bulbs i can get to grow underwater? They have some lily's.


Now time to post plants for sale for Canada area only. 

I have gotten the dwarf lilly at Wal-mart, which can be trained to grow low.. Lilly's may be the pond variation. 
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5201/5300342065_ce19f100d4_m.jpg


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## ubr0ke

yukon....wow

I thought i was up north on this site...Im in Edmonton...

You will never find stump remover anymore....all sales of a dry form of kn03 are banned in Canada.....

Gardening stores will sell you kn03 and water mixed tho...go figure..

I know in Edmonton good cheap plants are hard to come by so I can just imagine what your going through.


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## Zareth

if you have 48 watts of T5 over that tank, its pretty close to, if not in, the high light range.


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## Bree

I would post on here in the swap in shop, only i don't think i would ship my plants anywhere...And there isn't really anyone up here looking i don't think. I'm posting in the local papers though! lol

Yup...It is difficult up here, and the one petstore here takes advantage so badly, for example i went there to get some simple fish medication that clears fin rot on bettas everywhere else it sales for maybe $8.00 at most, the store here sells it for: $48.00!!!


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## Bree

Thanks Zareth! Ya, my tank looks very bright and i have added DIY CO2 my plants are growing insanely fast! And algae has been keeping itself as bay thank goodness!

Do you think i could grow HC in this tank?


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## ubr0ke

$48 hahahaha wow...

next time ask me and ill ship it to you for $45 haha

You have a lot of light Im kind of thinking you may run into trouble soon...
Increased plant mass is going to need an increase in co2..Not to mention ferts...
I would remove one bulb and just center the remaining bulb.. 2 bulb t5ho fixture is high light and i would suggest pressurized with that....The other option is to raise the fixture..10-12"...Even with pressurized I would raise the fixture...Plants will still grow just slower and it will give you a lot more room for error..


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## Bree

Haha thanks i will keep that in mind! lol

I don't know, i have had the light for 5 months now and just went through a short bit of algae growth at first, now its all good though. I do however only keep the light on for maybe 8 hours a day and add excel and DIY CO2. Ferts i add here and there, but i have accually decreased dosing since i added the light, it works a lot better!


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## btimmer92

I would do dry ferts. You can make your own fertilizers by mixing them with water. the initial cost is about $25 but they will last you years. And that includes each macro (NPK) plus a micro mix. Generally, if you have any more algae problems, reduce lighting period and make sure all of your nutrients are balanced. Here is a nutrient deficiency diagram

http://emergingintuitions.com/plant pics/plant deficiency labeled_Mar15_2010.jpg


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## Bree

Ya, i do really want to try dry ferts, but i can't find/ order any the of the ingredients. 
And this is just a 20 gallon so i don't mind spending some extra on the liquid, they work great, i use very little and so they last for quite a long time!

And thanks for the link i have a few like that saved on my menu, that one will be added to the list! 
Yuppers, lighting period has been decreased and i am slowly getting it down to maybe 6 hours a day just because. lol


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> Lighting period has been decreased and i am slowly getting it down to maybe 6 hours


You add a siesta period between the 6hrs to give you more viewing time. This is what helps me keep algae under control.


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## albirdy

It looked better at first =/


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## Hilde

Did you ever get the dry ferts? Perhaps a member here whom lives in Canada can help you. Find by going to members < advanced < Location type Canada.


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## Bree

albirdy- Trust me i know! It was the darn algae that killed off all my wisteria, and i just didn't know what to do after that...

No i am afraid i have not gotten the dry ferts. All my green algae is gone *knock on wood* but diatoms have overrun my tank, i have added carbon to the filter, added another filter for extra flow and so on, its starting to clear up a tiny bit i think...

My tank is a disaster zone, i don't really want to post a pictures, but i will in a little while.


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## Bree

Oh and i have ordered the following plants:

Hemianthus micranthemoides (baby tears)
Eleocharis parvula (dwarf hairgrass)
Heteranthera zosterifolia (Star grass)
Hygrophilia corymbosa (narrow leaf giant hydro)

This is once again hoping that my LFS decides to get their butts in gear and order them!


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> I have added carbon to the filter, added another filter for extra flow and so on, its starting to clear up a tiny bit i think...


I think instead of carbon adding something like seachem equilibrium in the filter would work better.


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## Bree

I know, i just wasn't able to acquire any so i thought maybe by adding carbon i could take out some extra nutrients that the plants aren't taking in and that are feeding the diatoms?


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## ADA

Bree said:


> So here is another updated picture...



PRETTY!!! I love those plants at the back..

Nice scape.


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## Bree

Heres a shot of my tank....Ugh.


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## Bree

As i said, its a forest, a wild, wild, ugly uncontrolled forest. haha


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## Hilde

Looking very nice.roud: Love the jungle look with some red poking out here and there. Envious of your Rotala's growth. Just need something for graduation in the middle. Perhaps some black rocks and a few twigs.


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## Bree

Thank you, i am glad you like it, i am a perfectionist and never seem to think anything i do is good so this is helpful! 

And ya, my plants have been growing like weeds, literally every single green plant there is growing 2 inches a week, i have taken them all out and thrown them away leaving only a few left, and within a month, there back like the picture above! haha
I am hoping that my amazon sword grows in bigger, then i will move it to the back, take out toons of my Cabomba and work it out so the plants look nice and even in there own way. haha


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## Bree

I have been searching around for some rocks to put in here, been rather busy though, and haven't found any so far that would look good, i shall keep searching though!


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## Bree

WHOOT!!! My LFS Finally brought in some plants, so i bought 2 dwarf hair grass, and one baby tears. Here are some shots:


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## Bree

Sorry for the shaky shot...

I am however worried that my fish are going to uproot my dwarf hairgrass, my honey gouramis are pecking at them, i also have 2 SAE's and 2 very small adolfi corys...Do you think they pose a threat? I could put the two corys in another tank, but the other fish i don't have a tank big enough for...Again i am worried they will eat/ uproot the plants.

The dwarf hairgrass came in 1/2 inch squares for $12.99, and the baby tears came with all those stems for the same price....So i was sweating when i bought the DHG....So expensive...I really can't afford them dieing or being eaten.


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> I am however worried that my fish are going to uproot my dwarf hairgrass, my honey gouramis are pecking at them.
> 
> I could put the two corys in another tank.


Perhaps you could distract the gouramis from eating the hair grass by giving them spinach leaves. I read that they eat plants thus have avoided getting them. Some have them in planted tanks with no problems.

The corys I would put in another tank until the hair grass gets rooted well. For they love to forage around plants for food droppings.


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## Bree

Okay, thanks for letting me know, i have been debating selling them, and this may have made my decision. I have had no problem with them eating plants until now, but then again they have had algae to munch on until now as well...I will try and put a leaf of letus in seeing as i haven't any spinach at the moment... Corys i will try in my 5 gallon betta tank until the grass comes in better, although i am not to worried as these guys are quite small and the plants are in flourite dark so they cannot move the stuff around.

So what do you think of the scape though, rating, suggestion type of thing? And any tips or tricks to growing these plants in nicely?


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## Kathyy

Definitely stick some veggies in there. SAE will eat HG too. Peeled green peas, partly cooked broccoli, raw zucchini or cucumber work for me. If any plugs come up plant them deeper, that might help. 

Your tank looks great and your plants are growing well. Hairgrass isn't any harder to grow than what you have now. Get a turf going and you won't care if the fish pick at it.


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## Bree

Thanks for the comment....Oh my fish choices, how they work so well. haha
:iamwithst

I have read some conflicting information on how fast DHG roots itself, some say 2 weeks, some 2 months...Mines in flourite dark so i am going to assume it will take longer..? WELL! Wish me luck!! I want so much for this carpet to grow nicely!


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## Bree

What i can do is set up my breeding bucket (yes, its literally a 15 gallon rubbermaid bucket i use for breeding my bettas) with a heater, filter, plants, etc. for a couple weeks while these plants settle, i will put in the gouramis, SAEs and corys, or would this be extreme and unneeded? I just love my plants so much (as creepy as that is) and i don't want them to be devoured or uprooted as i don't think it would be possible to replant...


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## Kathyy

Sounds like a plan. Once you see new shoots with a bunch of leaves and roots it might be safe to put the fish back into the tank. Keep up the veggie feeding though. Herbivorous fish are busy picking all the time, keep them busy picking at cheap veggies.


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> What i can do is set up my breeding bucket. I will put in the gouramis, SAEs and corys.


I would leave the SAEs in the tank, for have read that they can get aggressive and suck on other fish. Feed them cucumber and they will probably leave the plants alone. Just wash it and peal it before you put it in the tank. 

I had 2 in 29G. Since 1 died the other seems happier.


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## Bree

I am pretty sure that you are thinking of either False SAE's or CAE's, those two types of fish will suck the slime coat of other fish, but SAE's are the peaceful type. I went out and bought some cucumber to make a stir-fry today, so will give them a piece when i have chopped them up. ^^

Well today seems better, the fish are all leaving the plants alone, but i am watching carefully anyways just to make sure. They must have just been curious yesterday.

As a side note, i beleive that i will be adding a new betta to my family, the store had about 50 bettas in, 5 of which were these amazing looking crowntails, so i put a blue one with perfect fins/ colour on hold, and if still healthy will pick up on Wednesday-ish!


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## Hilde

Bree said:


> I am pretty sure that you are thinking of either False SAE's or CAE's, those two types of fish will suck the slime coat of other fish, but SAE's are the peaceful type.


Oh, I could have sworn it was the SAE's that suck on other fish. Had read that the CAE's are better algae eaters and are smaller than the SAE's. I could only find SAE's and needed algae eater. I read that they need at least 30G tank but got 2 anyways. Perhaps by the time 1 left gets 6 in long I can have my dream tank a 40G breeder.


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## Bree

Thats weird, i have heard the opposite! And i had a CAE that was given to me, it literally ate all my guppies. I gave the thing away and got these 2 SAE's to take care of the algae, and they have been munching on the long green algae nicely. They have never even seemed interested in my other fish though...


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## Bree

UPDATE:

So my honey gouramis started fighting and one died, so i sold the 2 that were being bullied and have only one left.

The DHG is kinda covered in diatoms, but they are growing runners everywhere, which is super exiting!

The baby tears on the other hand are almost all gone, they just melted, and i only have a couple of little strands left, i am not giving up on them just yet and hope they get used to growing underwater, i thought by now they would have been used to it and started to grow rapidly. Oh well, my hope remains!


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## Bree

Just updated my tanks profile if you wanted to take a look, i added 5 new plants:

Echinodorus tenellus
Shinnersia Rivularis
Rotala Indica 
Hygro polysperma 'Rosanervig'

They are doing great and really help to add diversity to the tank.

The DHG is still dieing, i can't believe its doing so poorly...The Tellius i holding in there, i hope i have better luck.


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