# 30 Gallon Tank: Hornwood/Seiryu Stone



## SifuSeafood (May 4, 2018)

Nice hardscape!

This is my opinion for plant layout. Quick doodle while at work 










Background:
Ludwigia super reds
Java fern trident (furthest back)
Java fern narrow mini (in front)

Midground:
I'd prefer a slow growing moss for slower growth and less maintenance.
Fissidens fontanus or riccardia chamedryfolia.

Or willow moss if you want a higher maintenance plant.

I like to attach moss to hardscape with 100% cotton thread over glue. I say cotton thread because it will eventually disintegrate and the moss should be attached by that time.

Between the rocks, you can get clumps of buce or anubias. Small bushes of bucephalandra mini coin would like nice, which is what I had in mind. Going the buce route will get spendy though! I think any buce brownie species would look great. You can shop around for the colors/shapes/textures you like the most.

Foreground:
Monte carlo. 

If you have the patience, split the monte carlo into the smallest pieces possible. An extreme example would be stem by stem. That would give you the highest chances of growth and success. The bigger the clumps, the more each stem needs to battle for flow and light.


Not sure how to place your echinodorus though!


Good luck!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

@SifuSeafood : This is wonderful! Thank you! I will follow this to a tee 

I was going to put the Sword in right back corner to hide my filter intakes and heater. It was more a plant to hide all that I didnt want visible.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Its cloudy-- but done!
At least for today.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Here is the less cloudy version. 
Im not liking the sword plant, so it is coming out today.
I will look for a higher light plant to group over there--- maybe another as well to fill in back-middle and remove some of the Monte Carlo.
Ordered a bracket to elevate the light higher.
Sorry for all the reflection in photo- it was a point and shoot pic.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I am in need of assistance: Because I used the Amazonia Light for the substrate ( I did mix in some Caribsea sand as well) I tested for Ammonia today expecting to need to do a water change and didn't have an ammonia reading. So, I guess Ill wait until tomorrow.

I have a question about liquid fertilizer,.. Should I wait to start adding liquid fertilizer until the tank cycles ( I did put a filter on another well-established tank for a few weeks so the tank should cycle pretty quickly) or should I wait for two-three weeks to begin fertilizing?
I will be adding some higher light plants next week in back- probably some Rotala and/or Ludwigia sp. along back wall and some Fissedens moss on branches.

And... another question: With the Fissedens moss, the online seller has some on stainless steel in 1.5- 3 inch sections. Would I wrap this around the branch and then tie with cotton thread or fishing line? How far apart? Would 10-15 1.5 inch square sections make a good start? Or 6 3 inch? I am not sure how much I need or how it would be best to apply to branches.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I start fertilization the day I plant.

Fissedens is relatively slow growing. If you want the finished look then estimate how much you want: add the lengths of branch sections where you want the moss and multiply by about 2. That is the number of square inches you want to start with.

Remove the moss from mesh and tie with cotton thread. Easier done with water level down. You can also use crazy glue but it turns white in water.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Okay- great! Ill start fertilizing at 1/3 dosage as you had advised me earlier tomorrow. 

Thanks for the tip on the moss to calculate what is needed. It looks like this moss, from my little bit of reading, will take the least amount of maintenance. That it also grows snug to branch. It is very nice looking as well.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Heads up from my experience: the wood branches that are within ~4" from the surface and are in the current is where I get black dots of BBA in higher light. That and the tip of the outflow. The tank can be 99% algae free except those areas. Easily comes off with a fingernail, but still a nuance. You might want to do moss 3/4 way up and see how it goes at first.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Oh, Okay! Thanks for that heads up, I definitely dont want to make it too easy for BBA to grow. 
I wont be filling out the whole branches anyways, its pretty expensive. But, I didn't see any other type of moss that wasnt really high maintenance or grow as closely to the wood as I would of liked.

I have been fighting BBA in my 180 gallon. I have really had to work at keeping it under control. It is now just confined to one piece of spider-wood and my heaters. Such a pain to get rid of.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

From an aquascaping standpoint, I won't put anything with any height on the right side. It will just takeaway from the nice work you did on the left. Even the rock on the right is probably a little big, but you can get a way with it.

Trust me, with Aquasoil, you can't change too much water. You should be changing water everyday regardless of test kit readings. Without co2, good light you need to remove as much organics as possible since plant uptake will be slower. Change water, add ferts, change water, add ferts. That keeps the water low on organics and the plants fed.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

thanks @houseofcards.

I could see that the sword was all wrong, but thought if I added stem plants it would "balance it out" somehow.My mind seems to be disturbed by the lack of symmetry,weight to each side. But then i like this void as well. I go back and forth.

I will just order the Fissedens then, no stem plants. 
I can take the rock out if this would make the design better.
Both water change and fertilizer on tap for today.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

You did a fantastic job and I agree with everything. Fissedens is a tough one. It has only done well for me in some shade and high flow... very weird... and its grows SLOW... vesicularia mini is my favorite. Grows much faster and has a nice sense look. I got mine from Herns.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Thanks, Dude- not too bad for a noob-lol!

Now I need to try to find a CO2 system, but first need to do some study on them. Seems complicated. 
My husband was looking at a dual-stage one on Greenleaf, it was around 1000.00- really more than I want to spend. I saw in another post that you had recommended someone who had built you one- a member here?

Ill look for v. mini- I didn't see it at Buceplant, which is primarily where I order because they are in California. I haven't heard of Herns- Ill check it out 

Edit: Oh! v. mini is Christmas Moss! I did see that- didn't recognize the scientific name. 
If it would have been the scientific name of a characin or cichlid I would of had a clue, but plants- not so much...


Recommendations anyone?

What other plants ( mosses, buces or other?) should I get to soften look of rock-work?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Discusluv said:


> Thanks, Dude- not too bad for a noob-lol!
> 
> Now I need to try to find a CO2 system, but first need to do some study on them. Seems complicated.
> My husband was looking at a dual-stage one on Greenleaf, it was around 1000.00- really more than I want to spend. I saw in another post that you had recommended someone who had built you one- a member here?
> ...


Alan Le. He's a member on here, but I dont know how often he's on. I can give you his number and I'm sure he wouldn't mind you texting him. I spent about $510 on mine and it is immaculate. Dual stage, all stainless, and 2 separate Parker needle valves. Last I checked they were the best on the market. Adding the second was like $100 or so. With just one needle valve you would probably be around $400. I can't recommend him enough. I'm going to have him build another for my 150 to replace the trash aquatek I wasted $100 on. 
I have always had my best luck in lowtech conditions with slow growers (anubias, ferns, mosses, buce) by having floating plants. Duckweed is easy, but I really like salvinia minima. Unfortunately the duckweed outcompete it... so I have very little now. Duckweed does the job very nicely though. You've really got to be careful on lighting with the slow growers. They need ALOT less light than you think. I've seen my best algae free growth with a 6 hour photoperiod. That's not fun though which is why I'm switching over to dimmable fixtures that ramp up and down or adding TC421 to my existing fixtures.
I wouldn't change anything about your scape.. well.... except some buce on the rocks. I've had good success with:
Brownie (all variants)
Belinda
Black Pearl
Hades
Theia (several variants)
Amandae 
With these I periodically take them out and do 10 seconds in 25% gluteraldehyde. Kills off any forming BBA and boosts growth. I have most attached to small pieces of black lava rock so I can remove them and dip them. Others are affixed to smaller driftwood branches that allow for the same thing. I'm getting closer to getting lighting figured out so that hopefully I wont have to keep doing that. The sterilizer has helped dramatically with BBA. Likely kills spores. I also prefer junglefowl bucephelandra to buceplant. I've just had much better luck and easier adaptation to my tanks


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Yes, pm me his number if you would, and while I may not send him a message right away, I will within the next month. 
I do want a system that is pretty much automated- so hopefully that is something he offers as well. And I realize that this costs more.

I have a bracket coming so I can raise my light up or down to dial in the lighting to proper intensity. I am starting out at 5 hours a day and will go up from there. Ill increase time minimally every 2 weeks to try to stave off algae as much as I can.

Buce will be good on rocks.

I also need to find a less obstrusive heater. Maybe a nice in -line one I can hook up to my Fluvel 206 filter.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

If it was my tank a couple of things I would do with the scape, based on what works for most scapes visually, but in the end it comes down to you and what you like.

1. Get a substrate leveler (spatula) and level out the substrate in the front. Right now it distracts and creates a somewhat chaotic feeling.
2. Moss on the rocks would contrast better with the bigger leaves of the ferns and the color of the MC carpet. You could still stick some buce and/or anubias in there, but I would go mostly moss. Put some on the lone rock on the right to bring it together.

3. I don't want to get into a whole co2 equipment debate, but I'll say that 90%+ people use single-stage regulators without issue at a cost of around $150-$200 complete. If you want to spend more and it's not an issue then by all means get a dual stage, but it'simply not necessary. It's FAR more important to have a quality needle value then whether the regulator is single or dual. Plus you can have one built for far less than $500. That too me is just way off the main stream and just over-kill.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> 3. I don't want to get into a whole co2 equipment debate, but I'll say that 90%+ people use single-stage regulators without issue at a cost of around $150-$200 complete. If you want to spend more and it's not an issue then by all means get a dual stage, but it'simply not necessary. It's FAR more important to have a quality needle value then whether the regulator is single or dual. Plus you can have one built for far less than $500. That too me is just way off the main stream and just over-kill.


Yes. There are probably thousands of people who do have luck with those... but then there are thousands that do have problems with C02art and GLA and go through all kinds of frustration. Most of the time its probably resolved. In the end they are NOT dual stage. They are NOT entirely stainless steel. They do NOT have top quality Parker needle valves. 

5 years ago I had a C6 Corvette with a supercharger, cam, full exhaust and tuning that made 600hp. I purchased the best quality parts and installed them WITH ASC certified master technicians. Dead batteries, belt slippage, broken rear end, traction and drivability issues, and nearly constant tuning. Difference is I knew the engine inside and out and could trouble shoot albeit this was very time consuming. I was probably into it for 60k total. 

2 years ago I spent 100k on a 2016 Z06 that makes 650hp. Did I waste 40k? Nope. Set it and forget it. Warranty, parts engineered to work together, and never a peep of problems.

Some people just want top quality and equipment built by hand and tested. That is what Alan does. I have seen your posts on the numerous threads with these issues with these lower quality regulators. How many times have you heard of unresolved issues with regulators constructed by Flowerhorn or Alan Le?? Better parts, better quality control, and better support for $200 (let's compare apples to apples. Mine was less than $400 before it was changed to having 2 parker needle valves).


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Thank you @houseofcards, I do have a substrate leveler and will do that. It will certainly make it look better, Im sure.

Good idea on moss on rock and stone. Any particular mosses that you would recommend? I will put some Buce in areas as well.

I couldnt start an intelligent debate on the virtuesn of any part of a CO2 system let alone end one, LOL! The search for a dual-stage model was more a recommendation from others who had systems, not an educated determination on my part. 

Can you direct me to the systems that you are speaking of? If they are "DIY" I think I would not have the ability to put one together. But, if there is a thread/website detailing this system, my husband may able to do it.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

The Dude1 said:


> Yes. There are probably thousands of people who do have luck with those... but then there are thousands that do have problems with C02art and GLA and go through all kinds of frustration. Most of the time its probably resolved. In the end they are NOT dual stage. They are NOT entirely stainless steel. They do NOT have top quality Parker needle valves.
> 
> 5 years ago I had a C6 Corvette with a supercharger, cam, full exhaust and tuning that made 600hp. I purchased the best quality parts and installed them WITH ASC certified master technicians. Dead batteries, belt slippage, broken rear end, traction and drivability issues, and nearly constant tuning. Difference is I knew the engine inside and out and could trouble shoot albeit this was very time consuming. I was probably into it for 60k total.
> 
> ...


That is simply untrue sorry. Been on TPT for 10 years and if that many people had problems they would not sell anymore PERIOD and they're would be thread after thread about people losing all their fish. In fact when people do lose their fish its usually the needle valve. The argument has been debated over and over and there is virtually no one spending $500-$1000 on a regulator. 

I'm trying to give someone new to co2 a realistic look, don't take it personally. Do you think most people drive around in $100k cars too with 650hp? You've basically proved my point. There are people here who want co2 and don't get it because they don't have $150. The fear mongering over EOTD is just ridiculous. You spent $500 because you had the money, not because you had to. If that was the price needed to have co2, do you know how many people woud have co2? You didn't have to spend $100k on a car to get from point A to point B, you got it because that's what you wanted.

BTW the average price of new car/truck is around $30,000, so your more than 3x the average, if we equate that to co2 the average from your $500 is $166. Sounds about right to me.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Right, too many discussions on single vs double stage. I had EOTD and will not use or recommend a single stage regulator.
Let's remember that we all come from different circumstances and walks of life, and $500 and $750K are relative numbers. Some buy tanks on Craig's list and some buy ADA.

Back to the subject, I have 2 of these, barely used, sitting in my garage in original boxes:

https://www.micromatic.com/great-products-15-off/double-gauge-co2-primary-premium-series-642

$20 ea sans shipping to good home. I also have a bunch of parts and can put one together free of charge for people I like. Better yet, If you cannot find 100s of threads on how to put and test one, I'll walk you through each and every step, either via PM or a public forum.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> 3. I don't want to get into a whole co2 equipment debate



Sure you do.. everything you said after that is debatable to a degree.................
Need and want isn't the same thing either...
I listed off the shelf NEW parts for 2 stage/Fabco/Clippard/cga for about $300
substitute a Dakota metering valve for an extra $40-$50..


Add a Dakota to a Milwaukee "kit" and what is the bottom line (hint: Add $88 plus parts..)?
Add an in line Fabco for $40-$50

All people need is food,water,air,shelter.. rest is all want..










PS I really do try... 
PPS: Just google "milwaukee CO2 regulator problems".............

PPPS:Let's assume all quality parts past the regulator are the same and ONLY the reg is different
$210 (new CGA) vs $47....
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003WX772...&pd_rd_r=39436b97-88c3-11e8-9d30-79f90a35b456
IF you went industrial 1 stage.. double it.. at least..
Yea not cheap but like Starfire glass vs plate..
Nobody "needs" starfire glass..


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> Sure you do..


No I really don't @Jeffttrol 

It was more about having to spend $500 then whether it was single or double (which I'm sure even you would agree with) , DIDN'T YOU READ MY POST 



houseofcards said:


> .... *If you want to spend more and it's not an issue then by all means get a dual stage, but it'simply not necessary.* It's FAR more important to have a quality needle value then whether the regulator is single or dual. *Plus you can have one built for far less than $500. *That too me is just way off the main stream and just over-kill.


Don't want to debate, the evidence is in the number of people using these regulators. The availability of regulators when you go to buy one (not custom build it) are almost all single-stage. Yes there's a whole unknown epidemic of people gassing their fish, so much so that they keep selling these regulators 10-20 years out. 

It's very sad, that all you do is look for these openings to keep up these pointless arguments when you could be spending more time on what's going on inside your tank. You have a tank so you could talk about co2 equipment and lights. Most people have co2 equipment and lights so they could talk about their tanks. See the difference.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

The irony of you looking for the same "opening" is lost on you...
I could practically c/p what you said from dozens of threads.. Pot calling kettle black?
Lets work backwards a bit..
milwaukee "kit" is $90.
Standard markup is 2x so it costs the seller $45
Manuf.. same thing.. parts..all parts(imported) or manuf cost $22.50

How much "quality" do you think you get for $22.50?
Wouldn't even buy a quality solenoid..
in a related thread I did mention getting a Kego reg and the $90 post body kit Sooo.. not a rigid as you think.. 

Or this:
https://store.cyberweld.com/smco2re...MI_OqRhuCj3AIVARxpCh344gn_EAQYAiABEgIVMvD_BwE
and post body kit..


Above average kit for $200.. $100 less than a 2 stage..approx..
upgrade to the "crucial" metering valve.. a Dakota..add $50 (Dakota - Fabco cost)

Yes, you need to assemble it but no harder than putting a piece of furniture together..

$500 gets you stainless steel.. granted a "vanity" item but one that is liked..did you see me hawking it? Ever?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> How much "quality" do you think you get for $22.50?


I'm going on 14 years LOL. Let's see what you've done with all your knowledge of LEDs and co2 Let's see your tanks. All you want to do is debate equipment. That's it!

The only reason this came up was because the dude1 said $500. You even know that's insane for most folks. Whether single or dual you can easily have a reliable system for half that.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Ahh the good old days..
Already showed my tanks.. you missed it.. 

Why do you think I ALWAYS post options for 2 stages???
did I EVER post one for $500?? No..

Do I consider it unreasonable that someone charges for their time? No.




> The only reason this came up was because the dude1 said $500.


 Yea and people hawk $1000 LED's.. I appreciate your opinion though..
sorry, I like the wild side.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> Ahh the good old days..
> Already showed my tanks.. you missed it..
> 
> Why do you think I ALWAYS post options for 2 stages???
> ...


Then why are you picking a fight. I said you would agree $500 is totally unnecessary. What's your problem. No reason for a newbie to co2 thinking they need to spend $500. Peronally i don't think you need to spend $250, but that was not the argument.

I guess you don't drive a $100k Vette, maybe a $50k truck.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> Then why are you picking a fight. I said you would agree $500 is totally unnecessary. What's your problem. No reason for a newbie to co2 thinking they need to spend $500. Peronally i don't think you need to spend $250, but that was not the argument.
> 
> I guess you don't drive a $100k Vette, maybe a $50k truck.


$10K 4WD drive, full bed used Dodge RAM 1500 w/ 35K miles at time of purchase.
Don't know what THAT has to do w/ anything but trying, feebly, for some kind of personal insult.
.. Why do you think it's a fight?
I at least gave many choices..you, for the most part Insist what is fine for you is fine for others..
A MILD disservice in my mind.
I usually just list facts.
sorry no real stats on EOTD or milwaukee failures, or GLA ect.
If you noticed, I never mentioned any packaged "KIT" AFAICT ever.
NOR, lately the hassles and risks of "parting" it out on flea bay.. Which, btw is MY way.. 
See I'm actually very frugal..

Didn't even mention the pressure increases at the end w/ most 1 stage regs..


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> I at least gave many choices..you, for the most part Insist what is fine for you is fine for others..


Me and 90% of the other people running co2, come on now. The majority of people don't DIY co2, they buy from online retailers plain and simple. Not saying there the best, just stating a fact. 

i think I'll buy a cheaper truck next time and use the savings to get a centralized co2 system throughout my house.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> Me and 90% of the other people running co2, come on now. The majority of people don't DIY co2, they buy from online retailers plain and simple. Not saying there the best, just stating a fact.
> 
> i think I'll buy a cheaper truck next time and use the savings to get a centralized co2 system throughout my house.



Again w/ the "tude"...


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Once again... mine was $500 because it was TWO needle valves. I believe it was $380 with one... 300% sure does sound better than $180... let's keep it in perspective... its $180 for a piece of equipment you'll never have to replace.. that's the point. 
I had to chuckle about "if there were all these problems people wouldn't still be buying them" lol. I'm not slamming you here, but in our current society cheap will win out over quality almost everytime... that's how this country was built my friend. 
We could illustrate the "vanity" of my regulator pretty easily. I can set from one bubble every 5 seconds to constant stream and anything in between you could measure in seconds. I've owned the aquatek and milkwaukee. 1/10 of a turn went from 2 bps to constant stream. It then wandered to DOUBLE the output in 24 hours. Let's get SPECIFIC. Ideology is a tool of the deceptive and uninformed. We all see how well "health care for all" went.
SOME people may be happy enough with the bargain stuff for a while. Others will receive total trash and spend the equivalent of my "vanity" regulator to get something that works. 
EVERYONE who spends $380 will get a quality built item that will do what you expect of it with no further complications. Anyone out there who doesnt think that's worth $180? Why not Beamswork with TC421 instead of a custom built light or even the radion, kessil, etc? Vanity right? Except too much light wont kill your fish. Cheap trash wandering Milkwaukee needle valves will....
**drops the mic and walks away**


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Pics up mic. Never once gased a fish in 15 years with single-stage. Oh gotta go, another thread of a gased fish, oh there' another. 

If you go out in the rain, drive over 45mph your more likely to have a problem then gasing your fish with a single-stage regulator. If the entry was $380 no one would be doing co2 and they would be missing out on it for the infeasible small likelihood of EOTD. 

Again the % of people that spend even $380 is ridiculously low.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

You are in somebody else's tank journal, btw. At least pick the toilet seat up.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I was helping OP (go up thread) until someone decided to use it as a debate thread.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> I was helping OP (go up thread) until someone decided to use it as a debate thread.



Technically you were preaching more than helping..


Anyways this isn't an appropriate place for this.
This might be better. you must have missed it. 

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1275815-co2-system-price-no-object.html


To the o/p apologies..


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> Pics up mic. Never once gased a fish in 15 years with single-stage. Oh gotta go, another thread of a gased fish, oh there' another.
> 
> If you go out in the rain, drive over 45mph your more likely to have a problem then gasing your fish with a single-stage regulator. If the entry was $380 no one would be doing co2 and they would be missing out on it for the infeasible small likelihood of EOTD.
> 
> Again the % of people that spend even $380 is ridiculously low.


I understand that, but you probably weren't on here looking for help to get started... you are intentionally missing my point...
Here it is.....
If you spend $150-$200 you will probably get a decent regulator that will have a very imprecise needle valve. You may need to upgrade parts.. you may need to trouble shoot... you may have wandering.. and gas fish... you may have EOTD and gas fish...
If you spend what I spent you wont. Is that clear enough? 
Discusluv has TREMENDOUSLY expensive stock... her school of lampeye congo tetras cost more than my regulator. She doesnt want issues. Do you suggest taking a chance?
This is my point. No one is doubting your experience and abilities. The people asking these questions DO NOT SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE. Perhaps they want quality and peace of mind. 
You also twisted my car analogy. Cars are a hobby for me. Same as aquaria. Getting from point A to B has nothing to do with it. There are 5k cars that would smoke me... but they are built and maintained by knowledgeable people who dedicate a substantial amount of time and continued expense in their upkeep. 
I know you understand what I'm saying. Based on your responses to Jeffkrol you are instigating things. I have been frustrated by his inability to talk things down to my level, but that's not his fault. I'm not there yet. I'm not ashamed. So I buy a premade fixture that i trust to work out of the box. Shoot people straight. That $100 regulator might get the job done. My piece of junk aquatek is still limping along 1 year later on my 150. Neither gauge works and the needle valve is trash... I check it daily. Sad part is it was better than the Milkwaukee which leaked out of the box!!
No different than anything else in life. If you have the time effort and skill and want to devote it to something you can probably get by with cheaper. Fixer upper house, car, whatever. You want quality and assurance out of the box it costs money. 
Your $200 safe will keep out most burglars. My $2000 safe will keep out Danny Ocean. Consider what's inside. Do you get it now? Not that you didn't before, but my point is made. There should be very little wiggle room for your antagonism.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

OVT said:


> Right, too many discussions on single vs double stage. I had EOTD and will not use or recommend a single stage regulator.
> Let's remember that we all come from different circumstances and walks of life, and $500 and $750K are relative numbers. Some buy tanks on Craig's list and some buy ADA.
> 
> Back to the subject, I have 2 of these, barely used, sitting in my garage in original boxes:
> ...


Truth here.
Thank you @OVT


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

The Dude1 said:


> I understand that, but you probably weren't on here looking for help to get started... you are intentionally missing my point...
> Here it is.....
> If you spend $150-$200 you will probably get a decent regulator that will have a very imprecise needle valve. You may need to upgrade parts.. you may need to trouble shoot... you may have wandering.. and gas fish... you may have EOTD and gas fish...
> If you spend what I spent you wont. Is that clear enough? .


No its not and your missing the key issue. EOTD is not an issue. The needle valves are the issue day to day. Your ignoring the FACT that MOST people don't have the money to spend what you spent. You drive a $100k car, again you brought up your car. That is over 3x the cost of new cars alone not to mention the lower cost of so many people buying used cars, so for YOU to spend the money you did is not an issue. 

So if its co2 with a $150-$200 reg vs no co2 because its too expensive I would take my chances because EOTD is so infrequent compared to other ways fish die its a ridiculus argument to not get co2. As I said if you need to spend $380 you would cut the users of co2 in 1/2 easily.

BTW When I started no one was selling dual stage, it was all single mostly milwaukee, azoos. Oh the horror, how did we survive.

Lets get back to OP info need.


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## ShepherdOfShrimp (May 13, 2018)

That looks amazing! I did not know monte carlo can carpet in low tech >_> I would've bought that instead of microswords in my dirted tank smhhhh


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> I understand that, but you probably weren't on here looking for help to get started... you are intentionally missing my point...
> Here it is.....
> If you spend $150-$200 you will probably get a decent regulator that will have a very imprecise needle valve. You may need to upgrade parts.. you may need to trouble shoot... you may have wandering.. and gas fish... you may have EOTD and gas fish...
> If you spend what I spent you wont. Is that clear enough?
> ...


There is a huge fear that I will gas my fish ( you are so right), it is what has kept me from getting CO2-- not at all the expense.
My husband is still telling me, "No Way"-- you are not getting anything but the most safe and automated system.
Im saying "But, I dont think I need to spend 1,000 to have that".
This is where I am at.

Putting it in perspective for me: Fish are my focus, not plants. It is where my investments are.

My discus tank has 1000.00 in fish and my geophagus community more than double this. 

I want security, automation, and the best price for that.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Discusluv said:


> Truth here.
> Thank you @*OVT*



Put 2 together.. inlet..outlet..inlet..outlet.. and you have a cheap 2 stage.. Run first one (past tank) full open (assuming at least 100psi, the 60 may be sufficient:0-60 PSI, for accurate product pressure) and last one at working pressure..


Boom! cheap 2 stage. Piping gets odd and it gets biggish.. but no "technological" reason it wouldn't work well..
That's all a 2 stage is.. 2 step pressure drop..
Should satisfy the cheap "rule".. 

After reading your above post.. suggest seeing if you can get a welding shop to assemble your parts...
Who better than people who's lives depend on it..

Just a though because, honestly "off the shelf" all new Quality 2 stage are JUST not available.. thus some Yankee ingenuity is needed..
CO2Art had some but, sadly, they downgraded their 2 stages.
GLA.. like I mentioned earlier to someone (and used the Smith 2 stage) doesn't currently offer it.. 

I woudn't have issues w/ any of the CO2 builders here like Alan Le. 
Technically they have been doing it for years, but understand the psychology..


Something that nobody, and I mean nobody but me, mentions is the need for a safety valve on the "downstream" side..
Even the commercial ones don't add it. Safety valve in the event of a hp 1st stage failure but nothing on the second stage..

NOT to add to your justified paranoia...but for full safety it is necessary..
Oh and to quantify the "broo haha" re: 1 vs 2


> Cylinder Pressure Rise
> Single stage regulators have an increase in delivery pressure
> as the cylinder pressure decreases. Listed below is the amount
> of pressure increase per 100 PSIG decrease in cylinder
> ...


CO2 tanks go from say 800 psi to zero once the liquid is gone..
Multiply rise pressure by 8..

Each brand is different but what is fairly universal:


> The change in delivery pressure of a TWO Stage regulator from
> full to empty Cylinder (inlet pressure) is negligible.


What it means depends...


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## ShepherdOfShrimp (May 13, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> There is a huge fear that I will gas my fish ( you are so right), it is what has kept me from getting CO2-- not at all the expense.
> My husband is still telling me, "No Way"-- you are not getting anything but the most safe and automated system.
> Im saying "But, I dont think I need to spend 1,000 to have that".
> This is where I am at.
> ...


Don't dual stage CO2 regs prevent the EOTD (end of tank dump) which prevents an overgassing? Also a good solenoid should keep the worry down on the fish since really the point of a solenoid is a safety feature so your fish don't get overgassed during the night and economic reasons (wasting CO2) second.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

ShepherdOfShrimp said:


> Don't dual stage CO2 regs prevent the EOTD (end of tank dump) which prevents an overgassing? Also a good solenoid should keep the worry down on the fish since really the point of a solenoid is a safety feature so your fish don't get overgassed during the night and economic reasons (wasting CO2) second.


 Thank you @shepardof Shrimp 



I have heard the dual-stage are safer, they have been recommended to me by many experienced with using CO2.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Discusluv said:


> There is a huge fear that I will gas my fish ( you are so right), it is what has kept me from getting CO2-- not at all the expense.
> My husband is still telling me, "No Way"-- you are not getting anything but the most safe and automated system.
> Im saying "But, I dont think I need to spend 1,000 to have that".
> This is where I am at.
> ...


In all honesty you are miles ahead of where I was when I started getting into heavily planted tanks. I'm STILL stumbling to get my Rainbow tank in order. I didn't mean to derail this thread, but my purpose was to discuss this for your benefit. I lost $700 in fish before you suggested the UV sterilizer that everyone says is useless on planted tanks. Results?? Deaths stopped dead (pun intended) in their tracks. I spent nearly as much on Paragaurd as I did on the Sterilizer! If I would have done it from the start I would have saved... almost $800 in fish and meds. 
Of course this is a moot point to the person who doesnt have $800 and that isn't the point. So.. there was method to my madness in bickering back and forth in this thread. No hard feelings of course. My way isn't for everyone and I'm certainly not judging. Most days I dont have enough free cash to get Chik Fil A for lunch lol! Everyone sees "value" differently. 

As to Monte carlo... I choose to break it up into tiny groupings of like 3 to 4 nodes of I can. It grows so fast and so dense that the bunches become mounds and look funny. Then you trim them back and have yellowing patches here and there with nice uniform growth in other areas.. I was never able to get it all going at the same pace when I did bunches. Tore it all out and replanted. I dont know if your back can take that. Mine can't anymore. One thing I have seen that I think looks INCREDIBLE is when people mix ground covers. There is so.eone on here that has some kind of clover looking plant that looks like Marsalis hirsuta in its emersed form mixed in with monte carlo and I think HC cuba. I'll try to find his journal. Makes a killer looking natural foreground that is just mind boggling. I'll probably pick some up to use in my rainbow tank since the crypt parva is just not happy. When it cools off some I can send you some ground covers. I just throw it away when it gets overgrown. I'm up to my ears in HC cuba, marsilia hirsuta, and I'm sure I'll have some other cool stuff by say September? Ranunculus inundatus is one I'll be getting with my next plant order.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> In all honesty you are miles ahead of where I was when I started getting into heavily planted tanks. I'm STILL stumbling to get my Rainbow tank in order. I didn't mean to derail this thread, but my purpose was to discuss this for your benefit. I lost $700 in fish before you suggested the UV sterilizer that everyone says is useless on planted tanks. Results?? Deaths stopped dead (pun intended) in their tracks. I spent nearly as much on Paragaurd as I did on the Sterilizer! If I would have done it from the start I would have saved... almost $800 in fish and meds.
> Of course this is a moot point to the person who doesnt have $800 and that isn't the point. So.. there was method to my madness in bickering back and forth in this thread. No hard feelings of course. My way isn't for everyone and I'm certainly not judging. Most days I dont have enough free cash to get Chik Fil A for lunch lol! Everyone sees "value" differently.
> 
> As to Monte carlo... I choose to break it up into tiny groupings of like 3 to 4 nodes of I can. It grows so fast and so dense that the bunches become mounds and look funny. Then you trim them back and have yellowing patches here and there with nice uniform growth in other areas.. I was never able to get it all going at the same pace when I did bunches. Tore it all out and replanted. I dont know if your back can take that. Mine can't anymore. One thing I have seen that I think looks INCREDIBLE is when people mix ground covers. There is so.eone on here that has some kind of clover looking plant that looks like Marsalis hirsuta in its emersed form mixed in with monte carlo and I think HC cuba. I'll try to find his journal. Makes a killer looking natural foreground that is just mind boggling. I'll probably pick some up to use in my rainbow tank since the crypt parva is just not happy. When it cools off some I can send you some ground covers. I just throw it away when it gets overgrown. I'm up to my ears in HC cuba, marsilia hirsuta, and I'm sure I'll have some other cool stuff by say September? Ranunculus inundatus is one I'll be getting with my next plant order.


Sounds great!  Maybe by then I can send you some discus fry in trade for plants! Ill be separating my Tefe's and Alenquers shortly to induce spawning. I would love to see that thread if you can find it.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Discusluv said:


> Sounds great!  Maybe by then I can send you some discus fry in trade for plants! Ill be separating my Tefe's and Alenquers shortly to induce spawning. I would love to see that thread if you can find it.


That would be AWESOME! I've been looking for a while. I'll come across it again and send the link. It looked really amazing.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Its day 10 of starting this tank and it is nearly completed with planting --- all but the moss on the rock has yet to be done.

I want to give a huge thank you to my new friend, @OVT for providing me with his excellent plants from his recent trimming. 
We met, his wife and my husband, and had an excellent time looking at a local fish-store and visiting over coffee.
Such amazing people.

I have noticed the normal "white bloom" on the Hornwood- which is always kinda ugly, but hoping it will go away soon. 
There is some algae growing on the moss, thinking I may need to turn down the light slightly. It is on for 6 hours right now- maybe to 5 hours?
I had used Amazonia Light soil, so the first week did daily water changes and this week have been doing every other day. 
Am doing the 1/3 dosing with Seachem liquid ferts. With changing water as much as I do are the ferts working? Not sure. Dont really notice growth yet.
The filter is just temporary where you see it in photo, it is seeding my canister filter. Will probably leave it just for another week and will then remove it. 

Any comments, suggestions welcome! 










Not sure why the picture looks so yellow- maybe this one will be better:


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

The left half looks beautiful, the right half in my opinion needs some work. The stems seem out of place. The rock might be too large but I think it could work.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Hmm. Maybe I should take that rock out completely. 

The stem plants need to be re positioned in another way? I can do that too. 


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I think maybe they just need some time to grow in? Or are you saying there should be a sword back there instead or something? I don't think you should base the hardscape decisions on what it looks like right after planting try to imagine what it will look like when things fill in...


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

swarley said:


> The left half looks beautiful, the right half in my opinion needs some work. The stems seem out of place. The rock might be too large but I think it could work.


Sound familiar? 

From page 1:


houseofcards said:


> From an aquascaping standpoint, I won't put anything with any height on the right side. It will just takeaway from the nice work you did on the left. Even the rock on the right is probably a little big, but you can get a way with it.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I guess then maybe the stems are the problem but hah as If I can keep empty space unplanted  personal problems.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> Sound familiar?
> 
> From page 1:


Yes, daxxxit! ( me sticking my tongue out at you). JK @*houseofcards*, you know the newbies have to learn the hard way. 

Bump:


Wobblebonk said:


> I guess then maybe the stems are the problem but hah as If I can keep empty space unplanted  personal problems.


 Right? I felt like I needed to cover that space. 

I did not like the Monte Carlo that was over there at all.
I suppose i can try another low carpet plant instead.
The plants I received from OVT I can put in my 24x 24 x 24 inch cube tank. I just got a Current Plus Pro light for that tank and have 2 other Finnex Planted Plus SE on it currently. Maybe that will be enough light for these plants. With ferts , of course.
What do you all think?




I actually really like the Blyxia on the right side. Maybe it would look good with just Blyxia on the base of the rock-work and do another carpeting plant of some sort on the remaining area. There is also a plant on the right of the rock that is this feathery texture. I think it stays shorter that may look good next to rock. It looks like it may stay short.


I took the rock out, Ill post a picture of what it looks like when the dirt settles. The substrate is so powdery.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

That's probably enough light for them but I can't say if they will do well or not in your cube, not much experience with 1 and I can't tell what the other is right now.

Remember to replant blyxa reasonably often as it is also a stem... Though giant basketball sized bushes of blyxa do look cool.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Everyone's a critic.

Practically, from a plant growing point of view, this is your best tank to get the plants established and learn their growing habbits. It is easier to move them or throw away then to buy them again. As the plants grow in, you can decide for yourself what looks best to you. With a new tank, a higher plant mass does not hurt either.

The thin feathery plant is Mayaca. Even though it can grow to 2'+, I like it around 12" or less. It grows and propagates slightly differently from most other stem plants and learning how to trim it is a good experience.

Blyxa Japonica is one of my favorite plants but it could be hard to establish. Once it grows well in your tanks, you, hopefully, will appreciate it's uses and versatility.

The vine like plant in the front left corner is Hydrocotyle tripartita 'Japan', another versitile plant that makes for a bright lime green carpet.

Tropica's site https://tropica.com/en is a good resource. Their different scapes using a specific plant is worth checking out.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Discusluv said:


> Yes, daxxxit! ( me sticking my tongue out at you). JK @*houseofcards*, you know the newbies have to learn the hard way.


LOL, it was kinda tongue n cheek, just thought it was funny how it was so similar a comment. Yeah you can't go tall on the right it just IMO takes away from the left, that's your big focal area. You could go with a smaller rock that looks like it's coming off that main area on the left and keep flora low on the right. Blyxa is one of my favorite. You could probably go with that as long as you have some on both sides to keep it cohesive. 

Now if you would have invited me to your little "Hobbyists in Cars Getting Coffee" thing I would have told you all this :laugh2:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Thats right, Im sorry you had to repeat this to me again, Oleg.
Im supposed to practice with these plants regardless to get the hang of high light plants, their growth, fertilization, etc...
The critics can wait until I get off of training wheels, LOL!

What is the plant that is in the middle , in back, on right side? This plant is beautiful! One of my favorites. I put a little in my tank with the geophagus and it is holding up well so far.. It is attractive and tough. 

Edit: It is the bright green plant in middle.


i just changed the water in tank and the Blyxia is melting- maybe it will come back-- I sure hope so.
All others seem to be hanging in there!

@houseofcards- you are invited next time we go to coffee


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Well this is most definitely an aquascape and OP asked for advise in that vain. Why go through the trouble of setting up that focal area on the left just to ruin it with the wrong plants on the right?

The Tropica site is good. If you click on inspiration you will see some aquascapes. What you probably won't see is an aquascape that has a main rock/wood mound and then tall plants by themselves on the other side. It just doesn't work 99% of the time.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I am ignoring @houseofcards for now (event though I agree with his 10x repeated point).

@Discusluv the plants under the HOB? That should be a mix of Ambulia and Giant Ambulia. Another interesting plant as it behaves and looks much better in lower light then in hi tech. The plants that you have have been propagated from the two batches I got some 20 years ago. Just call them "heirloom plants" 

Back to @houseofcards, come on over from NY, bring some plants, buy us coffee - I might even like you in person. Just maybe. There are scapes, there are plants. there are 'golden rules', personal likes and dislikes and the phase of the moon. You have made your point loud and clear. I got it, the OP got it, and the whole TPT and Internet got it. One more time and I'll send you a box of duck weed - it is now a lot rarer in CA then the good weed.

@houseofcards, one more time, just in case. Picasso is often called the greatest artist of the 20th century. Art is in the eye of the beholder and his pictures are not to my taste, even when I take my glasses off.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

OVT said:


> I am ignoring @houseofcards for now (event though I agree with his 10x repeated point).
> 
> @Discusluv the plants under the HOB? That should be a mix of Ambulia and Giant Ambulia. Another interesting plant as it behaves and looks much better in lower light then in hi tech. The plants that you have have been propagated from the two batches I got some 20 years ago. Just call them "heirloom plants"
> 
> ...


Uh, if you could find me even saying it 3 times I'll buy you dinner when I come to CALI. In fact I said it once and quoted it again when someone else said something similar. We are good OVT, no offense taken, but aquascaping advise was asked for so why shouldn't I give it?

At least I know what the "O" stands for :grin2:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

All is good! Thanks to everyone.

Have to walk before we can run... training wheels- all that stuff. 
But, I do see the aesthetics of no plants on the right- in time it will just be a carpet. 

Ambula! Okay, Ill look that one up as well as the Tropica website for inspiration and to start learning plants and care.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

Lol.. It almost felt like @houseofcards was accusing me of plagiarism. xD Looking forward to the plant growth and eventual super dive into aquascaping. For me, I kind of dove headfirst into aquascaping and going for looks first. Kind of suffering bc im a complete noob with fish and trying to fix all that.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

swarley said:


> Lol.. It almost felt like @*houseofcards* was accusing me of plagiarism. xD Looking forward to the plant growth and eventual super dive into aquascaping. For me, I kind of dove headfirst into aquascaping and going for looks first. Kind of suffering bc im a complete noob with fish and trying to fix all that.


Well, I can help in the fish area. Let me know if have any questions.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Had some really good growth in the last week as well as reddening of some of the plant tips. 



The algae is growing pretty heavy on the Fissedens moss, however. Not sure what to do about that.







































@OVT - I didn’t kill them- lol!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

The plants look better then when you got them. A touch of color certaintly helps.

What's up with algae on the moss? Is it easy or hard to remove with fingers?
If you can, I would pull Blyxa a bit up from substrate.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

OVT said:


> The plants look better then when you got them. A touch of color certaintly helps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don’t know what’s wrong, Oleg - there is a ton of algae! I’ll go see right now if it’s easy to rub off or not and pull the Blyxa up like you suggested.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> I don’t know what’s wrong, Oleg - there is a ton of algae! I’ll go see right now if it’s easy to rub off or not and pull the Blyxa up like you suggested.
> 
> Here is picture. It looks like hair algae?
> 
> ...















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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Indeed. This article is on point: https://www.aquariadise.com/green-hair-algae-causes-prevention-algae-removal/

Remove as much of the algae as you can (a daily job), Excel / Metricide 14 will help a bit, AlgaeFix will control it short term.

The usual 3-legged stool: too much nutrients + not enough co2 + for too much light. Did you change the light's settings? Looks like you are using a single Satelite Pro on max "yellow" button pre-set (that produces the max PAR for that light). Try max R and B, G < 50% and white ~ 60% and see if the tank looks better to your eye.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

OVT said:


> Indeed. This article is on point: https://www.aquariadise.com/green-hair-algae-causes-prevention-algae-removal/
> 
> Remove as much of the algae as you can (a daily job), Excel / Metricide 14 will help a bit, AlgaeFix will control it short term.
> 
> The usual 3-legged stool: too much nutrients + not enough co2 + for too much light. Did you change the light's settings? Looks like you are using a single Satelite Pro on max "yellow" button pre-set (that produces the max PAR for that light). Try max R and B, G < 50% and white ~ 60% and see if the tank looks better to your eye.




Okay. I’ll take care out it. Luckily only on the moss 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Took a video of the Tucano tetras 
They are doing great!

https://vimeo.com/282964113


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## Starwarsfan (Aug 12, 2018)

this tank came along nicely. great driftwood setup.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Recently took out all taller plants on right and put them in my 60 and 180 gallon tanks. They are growing like gangbusters. In this tank Planted some low growing plants.
.

























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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

This tank has had some real issues and challenges. 

The main difficulty was algae growth and the aqua-soil dust settling on everything. 
I have since adjusted the lighting and photo-period and capped the soil with some sand.
The lighting adjustment took a couple weeks to show a difference in algae growth. I also took out the horn-wood that was covered in algae and added some new wood. Which I like better- it is not so "heavy looking".
The dust was my own inexperience with using this type of soil. I pulverized it by adding it first and then adding and adjusting hardscape. Not a good method. 
So far, the capped sand has worked wonders. Still, a tank in process...


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