# CO2 safety, Read!



## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Quote:
_Above 2%, carbon dioxide may cause a feeling of heaviness in the chest and/or more frequent and deeper respirations.
Toxic levels of carbon dioxide: at levels above 5%, concentration CO2 is directly toxic. [At lower levels we may be seeing effects of a reduction in the relative amount of oxygen rather than direct toxicity of CO2.]_
Source:
http://www.doomedglobe.com/Pages/co2_toxicity.htm

At normal oxygen level, 7% co2 concentration can be lethal, and the OSHA standard for lethal dosage is 10% concentration within 30 minutes.
At lower oxygen level the effect of co2 poisoning is much stronger on human body.

5lb co2 in a 12'X12'x9' room is 5.15%.
air density is 0.075lb per square feet at 70 degree, in a room of 12'x12'x9', is 97.2lb. 
97.2lb(air)-5lb(air been pushed out)+5lb(co2 from 5lb co2 tank)=97.2lb(mixed air)
5lb(co2)/97.2lb(mixed air)X100%=5.15%
over the toxic level 

In a smaller room the concentration is higher.


Recently a lot of fellow members build their own co2 pressurized system, while building or after the system is built, CO2 safety is really important and must be kept in mind. AND MAKE SURE YOUR CO2 SYSTEM IS 100% FUNCTIONAL AND HAS NO LEAK.

Personally, it only take less than 2 hours to build a system if all parts are ready, but takes up to two weeks for a different series steps of test to make sure the unit is 100% functional and no leak.
And I keep the house windows open when playing with new systems.
Hope you do the same if you are building a co2 system.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Keep in mind that most rooms are not hermetically sealed, and that CO2 is denser than air so will naturally flow out through gaps between the door/floor, vents, etc.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Darkblade48 said:


> Keep in mind that most rooms are not hermetically sealed, and that CO2 is denser than air so will naturally flow out through gaps between the door/floor, vents, etc.


+1, if you see your dog or cat acting wired while you are playing with co2 equipment, open the windows or the door immediately.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Yes, also beware of deadly dihydrogen oxide!


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

How do you test your regulators after assembling Bettatail? I have read on one of the regulator companies site that if reassembling a regulator it should be tested using helium by a certified technician. Do you just run co2 through them when testing or do you use helium as they suggest?


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

xmas_one said:


> Yes, also beware of deadly dihydrogen oxide!


You are talking about the most plenty deadly substance on earth?!!!!
:icon_eek:

for any of you don't know what it is, please google it, "dihydrogen oxide poisoning"

The whole section of people, about 10 of us, fell for the "dihydrogen oxide poisoning" during safety brief in April, 2005. :icon_sad:


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## chevyguy8893 (Nov 5, 2012)

Good article pointing out that rushing and not paying attention could lead to a problematic situation. Also, for pressurized CO2 systems be sure to secure the tank in some way to avoid it being knocked over and causing damage in some way.



xmas_one said:


> Yes, also beware of deadly dihydrogen oxide!


If it gets on you get a towel immediately and contact a doctor ASAP .


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

A battery powered C02 detector for $18 on Amazon is well worth the money ;-)


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

stevenjohn21 said:


> A battery powered C02 detector for $18 on Amazon is well worth the money ;-)


Are you sure those are not carbon monoxide detectors you are thinking of?


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

xmas_one said:


> Yes, also beware of deadly dihydrogen oxide!


You can mix it with Scotch and counteract the effects, unless you have high doses which can result in vomitting, blurred vision, and poor judgement or in extreme cases death.:icon_roll


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

ua hua said:


> How do you test your regulators after assembling Bettatail? I have read on one of the regulator companies site that if reassembling a regulator it should be tested using helium by a certified technician. Do you just run co2 through them when testing or do you use helium as they suggest?


Helium test is for the highly toxic gas service equipment, this standard of leak test is to prevent leak, normally down to molecule level. co2 is not highly toxic gas, and I can't measure how many co2 molecule escape from the system.:biggrin:

the safety issue here is the co2 concentration in enclosed environment. the proper operating procedure is pretty much the same as any welding shops, properly handle high pressure equipment, prevent frostbit and "keep the windows open", so co2 concentration can not reach to the level that cause trouble.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Bettatail said:


> Helium test is for the highly toxic gas service equipment, this standard of leak test is to prevent leak, normally down to molecule level. co2 is not highly toxic gas, and I can't measure how many co2 molecule escape from the system.:biggrin:
> 
> the safety issue here is the co2 concentration in enclose environment. the proper operating procedure is pretty much the same as welding shops: "keep the windows open", and co2 concentration can not reach to the level that cause trouble.


I guess I'm confused then because in your first post you said that co2 levels above 5% concentration can be toxic. I have read more than a few threads on this forum where people were having co2 leaks from there system and I don't see how this small amount could pose a problem unless you have your tank setup in a closet that is sealed up with duct tape.


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## stlouisan (Jun 8, 2006)

dihydrogen oxide.... heehee!:tongue: that's funny


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## clang (Jan 27, 2011)

dihydrogen monooxide


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

ua hua said:


> I guess I'm confused then because in your first post you said that co2 levels above 5% concentration can be toxic. I have read more than a few threads on this forum where people were having co2 leaks from there system and I don't see how this small amount could pose a problem unless you have your tank setup in a closet that is sealed up with duct tape.


in enclosed environment, leaked co2 can not escape and concentration will rise.

about the 5% toxicity, the detail is in the provided link, very interesting article.

It is the dose that kill, any substance can be toxic if give the proper amount, so as dihydrogen oxide, a poisonous deadly substance. :biggrin:


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

So what we have is a warning about a hazard that doesn't exist in normal use, based on information from an internet article whose URL includes "doomed globe" written by somebody who is likely a nut? 
Isn't the internet a place to get some wonderful information to pass around to anyone would needs another worry? ?

If I ever hear of a planted tank fan being struck down by his CO2, then I might worry. But NOT if the info comes from the internet!


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

xmas_one said:


> Yes, also beware of deadly dihydrogen oxide!


It's Dihydrogen Monoxide. Monoxide makes it sound deadlier.


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

There is a real caution that should be made aware but not alarming. Especially if you keep your house closed up in winter and summer. It concerns the pilot light in the water heater. If there's a high enough co2 gas leak and if the co2 has nowhere to vent to the outside it will pool in your basement. With enough co2 in your basement the pilot light can be snuffed out creating a gas leak. So, If you smell something bad and you've been tinkering with the co2 tank, don't blame the dog, go check the waterheater pilot light. And if you smell something bad at night don't flip on any light switches.

I once vented a nearly empty co2 tank in my living room and did snuff out the pilot light.


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## proaudio55 (Oct 20, 2011)

PlantedRich said:


> So what we have is a warning about a hazard that doesn't exist in normal use, based on information from an internet article whose URL includes "doomed globe" written by somebody who is likely a nut?
> Isn't the internet a place to get some wonderful information to pass around to anyone would needs another worry? ?
> 
> If I ever hear of a planted tank fan being struck down by his CO2, then I might worry. But NOT if the info comes from the internet!


Thank you!
I don't buy into the "sky is falling" type of nonsense being posted here. CO2 poisoning is only going to happen in an absolutely sealed environment, a perfect example is a space ship capsule (Apollo 13).

The MSDS's are written with *BULK storage *in mind. Your tiny portable tank is a pipsqueak in comparison to industrial scale vessels. Below is from work: it's 350 gallons of liquid argon, something to be respectful of. A little 10lb CO2 bottle certainly has a lot of destructive / hazardous potential but let's keep that in perspective. 









http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pHosting.php?do=show&type=f&id=12235&title=bulk_vs_portablec.jpg


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Here is a video demonstrating how some industries use CO2 as a fire suppressant system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q303E9mLujQ

Note the amount of gas that is being released, and also the fact that the camera man just remains in the room for the entire video duration. No problem.


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## nvladik (Jan 12, 2012)

This thread might explain my cat's behavior last few days.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

nvladik said:


> This thread might explain my cat's behavior last few days.


Is it being anti-social and not obeying commands? Those are classic symptoms of co2 toxicity. Oh no wait.. those are symptoms of a cat.:hihi:


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

hey, guys, I never said co2 is toxic gas, and never treat it like toxic gas...
so don't expect me to put on my gas mask or thinking that I wanted you to put on your gas mask, when playing with co2 equipment.

build some good number systems, and play with co2 tank all the time, never worry co2 would hurt me because co2 is not toxic gas.

The safety concern of CO2 is its concentration in air.
no matter how much and how you use it, if you stay in the environment where the co2 concentration is less than the point that cause trouble, it should be fine.




PlantedRich said:


> So what we have is a warning about a hazard that doesn't exist in normal use, based on information from an internet article whose URL includes "doomed globe" written by somebody who is likely a nut?
> Isn't the internet a place to get some wonderful information to pass around to anyone would needs another worry? ?
> 
> If I ever hear of a planted tank fan being struck down by his CO2, then I might worry. But NOT if the info comes from the internet!


I don't know anything about the site contains any "doomed globe", but the page about the co2 concentration safety make no much difference if you google "co2 concentration safety", other websites will pop up and you will see pretty much the same description about co2 concentration safety, some are hard to read because too technical.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

It is the dose that kill, any substance can be toxic if give the proper amount


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

ua hua said:


> Is it being anti-social and not obeying commands? Those are classic symptoms of co2 toxicity. Oh no wait.. those are symptoms of a cat.:hihi:


:flick:


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## jan db (Dec 20, 2011)

good advice


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Steve001 said:


> There is a real caution that should be made aware but not alarming. Especially if you keep your house closed up in winter and summer. It concerns the pilot light in the water heater. If there's a high enough co2 gas leak and if the co2 has nowhere to vent to the outside it will pool in your basement. With enough co2 in your basement the pilot light can be snuffed out creating a gas leak. So, If you smell something bad and you've been tinkering with the co2 tank, don't blame the dog, go check the waterheater pilot light. And if you smell something bad at night don't flip on any light switches.
> 
> I once vented a nearly empty co2 tank in my living room and did snuff out the pilot light.


 
This is another example of alarming news from people who lack training/understanding of the equipment. 
If the pilot light goes out for any reason, the thermocouple cools and the gas supply is cut off. Your house does NOT blow up but you will find a cold shower.


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## Mostro (Aug 26, 2012)

Steve001 said:


> If you smell something bad at night don't flip on any light switches.


This is profound, time-honored advice for any number of situations.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Quote: I don't know anything about the site contains any "doomed globe", 

The DOOMED GLOBE is the start of the URL you posted. If you did not question WHERE you read the information you posted, how can you possibly have given it any critical thought before passing it on as truth? 

If you don't question what you are reading on the internet, there may really be a danger of you hurting yourself with CO2! Shissh! Are you still expecting to get that money from Nigeria?


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

PlantedRich said:


> Quote: I don't know anything about the site contains any "doomed globe",
> 
> The DOOMED GLOBE is the start of the URL you posted. If you did not question WHERE you read the information you posted, how can you possibly have given it any critical thought before passing it on as truth?
> 
> If you don't question what you are reading on the internet, there may really be a danger of you hurting yourself with CO2! Shissh! Are you still expecting to get that money from Nigeria?


so forget about that page from doomed globe, google the "co2 concentration safety" and pick the links other than "doomed globe", and read.

Nigeria scam is fun, I used to respond to those emails back in 2005, just tried to make them work harder to get me on hook, then block or report their emails.
put aside the Nigeria scam, I am not really sure the link that I provided has anything directly relate to Nigeria scam or any misleading instruction on how to properly handle co2, it is about the co2 concentration safety anyway. And I don't think I will be in a danger of hurting myself with co2.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Anybody who responds to Nigerian e-mails goes on my suspect list! 

I read last night that the Bay bridge is for sale. If you send me $20 I will send you the information Priority Mail. Sooner to respond quick as deal is not open to folks many.


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

PlantedRich said:


> This is another example of alarming news from people who lack training/understanding of the equipment.
> If the pilot light goes out for any reason, the thermocouple cools and the gas supply is cut off. Your house does NOT blow up but you will find a cold shower.


Well mister smarty pants we all can't be up on the latest workings of water heaters. It did happen.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Sure, the CO2 can put the water heater pilot out if it is thick enough. The point is that it really is no big deal when the pilot goes out. This whole thread is built on passing on information to make people panic! 
There are folks whose main job is designing safety features and making sure consumers are safe when they use equipment. A water heater is designed to avoid gas leaking and blowing up the house. People can screw things up but they have to work at it to blow the house up. The same things apply to using CO2. In this country, if it doesn't have big tags warning you of the hazard, it is likely there is no hazard there.
It is worth noting that there are no warnings on CO2 and there are millions of CO2 tanks used all over for all sorts of work. 
Even kids who are not allowed to buy model glue are allowed to buy CO2!


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## Ryan Monroe LA (Nov 11, 2007)

One of the 48 Hours/Dateline/20/20 news shows had a mystery segment a few years back about a couple's death in a dorm room. When they finally solved the case, it turned out to be CO2 (not CO) poisoning. I can't remember the exact details of the prank, but it involved the next door neighbors shooting something CO2-laden through a hole in the wall. I don't think it was a fire extinguisher... may have been dry ice, but then again I don't know how you'd shoot that through a hole in the wall.

There have been other CO2-related asphyxiations in the news over the years as well, so don't think this cannot happen even with 5 or 10 lb cylinders in a non-hermaticaly sealed room. When it comes to CO2, the danger is not (just) displacing oxygen, which was somewhat of a surprise to me when I learned that fact. CO2 can bind with hemoglobin preferentially (over oxygen) in much the same way CO poisoning happens, abeit at higher concentrations.

Truly non-poisonous gases like nitrogen, helium and argon on the other hand will not bond at all with hemoglobin and only become dangerous when they displace too much O2 to support life. It is interesting and important to note, however, that amongst the truly non-poisonous gasses, nitrogen holds a unique and hidden danger. It has a long history of causing fatalities in industry because the human brain cannot detect a difference between breathing air (78% nitrogen) and higher concentrations of nitrogen. When you breath other non-poisonous gas mixures that are low in oxygen, such as exhaled air (high in CO2) or helium, your brain can tell what is being breathed deficient in oxygen. Your brain perceives pure nitrogen as it would well-oxigenated air, leading to sudden asphyxiation and death with almost no forewarning.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Ryan said:


> One of the 48 Hours/Dateline/20/20 news shows had a mystery segment a few years back about a couple's death in a dorm room. When they finally solved the case, it turned out to be CO2 (not CO) poisoning.


There was an episode of CSI: Las Vegas that had a similar plot.



Ryan said:


> When it comes to CO2, the danger is not (just) displacing oxygen, which was somewhat of a surprise to me when I learned that fact. CO2 can bind with hemoglobin preferentially (over oxygen) in much the same way CO poisoning happens, abeit at higher concentrations.


Hemoglobin will bind CO2 preferentially over O2, but it depends on several factors (form of the hemoglobin, CO2 and O2 concentrations, pH). That's how CO2 is removed from tissues 



Ryan said:


> It is interesting and important to note, however, that amongst the truly non-poisonous gasses, nitrogen holds a unique and hidden danger. It has a long history of causing fatalities in industry because the human brain cannot detect a difference between breathing air (78% nitrogen) and higher concentrations of nitrogen.


This is true of any inert gas.



Ryan said:


> When you breath other non-poisonous gas mixures that are low in oxygen, such as exhaled air (high in CO2) or helium, your brain can tell what is being breathed deficient in oxygen. Your brain perceives pure nitrogen as it would well-oxigenated air, leading to sudden asphyxiation and death with almost no forewarning.


No; these are two separate things. 

If you are breathing in gas mixtures that are low in oxygen, but also low in CO2 (an inert gas, such as nitrogen, helium, argon, etc), you can still asphyxiate because of the lack of oxygen. The body is unable to feel any pain because CO2 is still being eliminated as normal.

However, if you are breathing the same inert gas, but with CO2, then your body will be sense that you are not getting enough oxygen.

In short, feelings of asphyxiation are due to the buildup of CO2 in the bloodstream.


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