# The Breeding Project: Dark Rams ( Update: + New EBR/GBR Pairs)



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Another cichlid pair for future breeding stock. 
I was able to find and have purchased a breeding pair of Dark Black Rams ( F3) from reputable breeder. These offspring are from stock originating from breeders in Israel. Here is a bit about them. 



Black Rams... - Other Fish Discussions - CanadaPleco Forums


Some shadowy pictures of my pair from breeders listing:














More pictures and info to come !


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Discusluv,

I too enjoy dwarf cichlids including Apistogramma and M. ramirezi. One of our local club members, Dean, has been breeding the 'black rams' for about a year now and has found out something interesting. First they are very sensitive as to water quality, since you know discus that should not be an issue. Second, unlike blue Rams, the size is of the spawn is much, much smaller. Lastly, only about 25% of the spawn are black, the remainder are light colored. I don't believe they are 'albino' per se but almost that color of pigment, it appears that the 'black' / 'dark' gene is recessive. I hope they do well for you! ( I am guessing they were a little on the 'pricey' side / I know what our member paid for his?)


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*Discusluv*,
> 
> I too enjoy dwarf cichlids including Apistogramma and M. ramirezi. One of our local club members, Dean, has been breeding the 'black rams' for about a year now and has found out something interesting. First they are very sensitive as to water quality, since you know discus that should not be an issue. Second, unlike blue Rams, the size is of the spawn is much, much smaller. Lastly, only about 25% of the spawn are black, the remainder are light colored. I don't believe they are 'albino' per se but almost that color of pigment, it appears that the 'black' / 'dark' gene is recessive. I hope they do well for you! ( I am guessing they were a little on the 'pricey' side / I know what our member paid for his?)


 Yes, pricey, but the cost was less than I have seen offered from online retailers who show pictures of extremely sub-par stock. The black color on this pair looks very, very good. 



Not worried about water quality-- Im used to having to keep really good standards as far as that is concerned. Mostly just a bit concerned of there getting to me healthy and acclimating well to the aquarium. 



All else Ill take as it comes. Ill definitely keep a journal up to document how the breeding project goes. But, also, just so others can see them in the aquarium, learn their behaviors, and get an idea of their care.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

I have seen these guys before and thought they were the most amazing fish. I didnt read the website you posted, so shame on me if this question is the first thing they covered. Are these, like many other fish in our hobby, a product of excessive inbreeding? Or are they naturally occurring in the wild and just very rare?
I only ask as the susceptibility to water conditions and spawning rates being lower than blues just screams inbreeding. I think we have all seen this in the hobby though, just interested. 
Cannot wait to follow along with this amy!

Edit: and I was right...first thing I read was that it is a specifically bred mutation. Ughhh read first James you fool!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

These fish are lost in USPS no -mans land. Heart-broken as they should have been to me 3 days ago. Not worried that the vendor wont make good at this point ( I am getting assurances it will be made good) I am just sick that such a beautiful pair of fish are suffering or dead. 

This is why I don't like to use vendors that ship USPS with fish.

This is the 3rd time that this has happened to me in 5 years when I have used vendors that used USPS shipping. Each time I protest that USPS shipping is not my thing and am willing to pay for overnight shipping and each time I am assured that USPS is "almost always" a flawless shipping experience. [I have paid for overnight shipping at least a dozen if not more-times from a handful of reputable vendors and the experience is always, indeed, flawless]. This time, however, I bid for these fish on Aquabid ( a pretty penny at that) and the shipping was predetermined in bid. I felt nervous about it but swallowed this nervousness because this vendor has shipped thousands of fish. 

I have ordered USPS shipping of fish 5 times- 3 times of those 5 times were a problem. 

Again, I feel so sick about these fish.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> These fish are lost in USPS no -mans land. Heart-broken as they should have been to me 3 days ago. Not worried that the vendor wont make good at this point ( I am getting assurances it will be made good) I am just sick that such a beautiful pair of fish are suffering or dead.
> 
> This is why I don't like to use vendors that ship USPS with fish.


Oh no! I'm so sorry to hear this. Just awful. Hopefully they arrive alive and still manage to acclimate, but I know the feeling in your gut right now. Fingers crossed for them. 



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Discusluv,
> 
> I too enjoy dwarf cichlids including Apistogramma and M. ramirezi. One of our local club members, Dean, has been breeding the 'black rams' for about a year now and has found out something interesting. First they are very sensitive as to water quality, since you know discus that should not be an issue. Second, unlike blue Rams, the size is of the spawn is much, much smaller. Lastly, only about 25% of the spawn are black, the remainder are light colored. I don't believe they are 'albino' per se but almost that color of pigment, it appears that the 'black' / 'dark' gene is recessive. I hope they do well for you! ( I am guessing they were a little on the 'pricey' side / I know what our member paid for his?)


I wonder if that's not a matter of more than simple recessive genes, then? If crossing two visual animals with the same simple recessive gene (or set of genes), you'd expect all offspring to resemble the parents. I bred corn snake mutations for a couple of decades and got pretty familiar with genetics on that scale -think back to the punnet squares from science class. My immediate thought is that the yellow (typical) rams are co-dominant themselves, or else the black individuals will show dark color even if only carrying the gene. 
For example: 
BB (true dark ram)
Bb (visually a dark ram, but only carries one allele)
bb (normal ram) 
But in that supposition, you'd still expect all dark fry from a spawn of 2 dark individuals. This thread has taken me down a rabbit hole. Just read a 66 page topic on another forum with people discussing their breeding trials. Seems some folks are experiencing 100% black fry. Which would lead me back toward thinking it's a recessive gene with a visual heterozygous form. At any rate, I hope these make it and we get to learn more!


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> These fish are lost in USPS no -mans land. Heart-broken as they should have been to me 3 days ago. Not worried that the vendor wont make good at this point ( I am getting assurances it will be made good) I am just sick that such a beautiful pair of fish are suffering or dead.
> 
> This is why I don't like to use vendors that ship USPS with fish.
> 
> ...


That's definitely a bummer. I hope they get found soon and that the whole experience is a setback rather than tragic. I've experienced this a couple times with plant orders and once with a shrimp order, definitely very frustrating, but many times worse when it's livestock. The shrimp actually wound up being perfectly fine...I hope the same can be said for your rams.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Here's hoping USPS gets its ducks in a row. I've always been too anxious to ship anything living via USPS without going the Express route. Even then, I prefer FedEx Overnight or air freight via Delta or Southwest. 

Maybe this situation will help motivate the seller to offer another shipping option for buyers in the future.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I wonder if that's not a matter of more than simple recessive genes, then? If crossing two visual animals with the same simple recessive gene (or set of genes), you'd expect all offspring to resemble the parents. I bred corn snake mutations for a couple of decades and got pretty familiar with genetics on that scale -think back to the punnet squares from science class. My immediate thought is that the yellow (typical) rams are co-dominant themselves, or else the black individuals will show dark color even if only carrying the gene.
> For example:
> BB (true dark ram)
> Bb (visually a dark ram, but only carries one allele)
> ...


Hi @Blue Ridge Reef,

How about this:

bb = dark ram (two recessive genes)
bB or Bb = light ram with dark gene
BB= light ram

In theory 3/4 would be light colored and 1/4 would be dark colored.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Blue Ridge Reef,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That sounds about right when dealing with heterozygous traits. Two animals that are “100% het” would produce about 20-25% of their offspring in that particular color morph.


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## SueD (Nov 20, 2010)

So sorry to hear about your currently missing fish. Hoping for the best for you.

I order very little that has to be shipped to me as I have a really good LFS that will also do special orders when they can. But I do know what it's like when you see that rare or special fish that you really want. So I've ordered maybe half a dozen times and fortunately only one order got delayed 2 extra days over a weekend (USPS, of course). But in my case, all fish made it. Really hoping the same it true for you. Keep us posted.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Blue Ridge Reef,
> 
> How about this:
> 
> ...


That works, assuming the hets are visual dark rams. Which does happen with a few things. But if you lay this out as you drew up, the dark rams would both be bb which would only produce dark fry. I'm thinking this must be a matter of visual hets. Or something more complex entirely. 


varanidguy said:


> That sounds about right when dealing with heterozygous traits. Two animals that are “100% het” would produce about 20-25% of their offspring in that particular color morph.


This is probably accurate -what makes it unusual is that hets aren't generally visual for the trait they are heterozygous for. I'm of the mind that these must be one of those exceptions in which the het animals are actually visual. In corn snakes, we had this with tessera, a striped corn mutation. It was at first believed to be a co-dominant gene, but after some breeding trials we realized that the Bb version of this gene looked just like the bb version. You couldn't tell them apart unless bred back to a normal. If 100% were striped, the animal was considered a "super tessera," and if 50% did, it was a regular tessera. But for love or money you couldn't distinguish the two apart. Wonder if dark rams aren't either a 2 gene combination or something a little more complex than just one recessive gene. I can't think of a scenario in which two animals showing the same recessive gene only make 25% of offspring showing it.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> That works, assuming the hets are visual dark rams. Which does happen with a few things. But if you lay this out as you drew up, the dark rams would both be bb which would only produce dark fry. I'm thinking this must be a matter of visual hets. Or something more complex entirely.
> 
> This is probably accurate -what makes it unusual is that hets aren't generally visual for the trait they are heterozygous for. I'm of the mind that these must be one of those exceptions in which the het animals are actually visual. In corn snakes, we had this with tessera, a striped corn mutation. It was at first believed to be a co-dominant gene, but after some breeding trials we realized that the Bb version of this gene looked just like the bb version. You couldn't tell them apart unless bred back to a normal. If 100% were striped, the animal was considered a "super tessera," and if 50% did, it was a regular tessera. But for love or money you couldn't distinguish the two apart. Wonder if dark rams aren't either a 2 gene combination or something a little more complex than just one recessive gene. I can't think of a scenario in which two animals showing the same recessive gene only make 25% of offspring showing it.


I had this thought as well, that dark rams could be a codominant color mutation, and getting jet blacks could be their "super" variant. However, if that were the case, one should be able to breed a black ram to a normal ram and still get dark offspring. If that's not the case, then the signs point to it being a recessive trait with the heterozygous animals carrying a visual marker, like you're saying. It's very interesting.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

SueD said:


> So sorry to hear about your currently missing fish. Hoping for the best for you.
> 
> I order very little that has to be shipped to me as I have a really good LFS that will also do special orders when they can. But I do know what it's like when you see that rare or special fish that you really want. So I've ordered maybe half a dozen times and fortunately only one order got delayed 2 extra days over a weekend (USPS, of course). But in my case, all fish made it. Really hoping the same it true for you. Keep us posted.


Thanks, Sue- I will let you all know. So far- nothing...


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## TheDukeAnumber1 (Sep 13, 2018)

That's a bummer Dluv, I hope they come through for you.

Farm tour that makes the Black Rams


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Rams finally came today, 8 days after being shipped-- still alive. But, very, very stressed. 
Im shocked still alive...


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Oof. Fingers crossed for ya, Amy. If anybody can get them to live, you can.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Oof. Fingers crossed for ya, Amy. If anybody can get them to live, you can.


 Thank you. 

I can see that 86 degree water starting to liven them up. They are swimming around a bit, exploring their surroundings.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I can see that 86 degree water starting to liven them up. They are swimming around a bit, exploring their surroundings.




That’s a relief!! 8 days is quite a long time. I’m sure if anyone can bring them back to health it’s you!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

vvDO said:


> That’s a relief!! 8 days is quite a long time. I’m sure if anyone can bring them back to health it’s you!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Thank you! 

The vendor had packed them well- so it really helped. 
But, warm water, no light on tank, and some liquid vitamins in water column ( maybe some blood-worms this evening) is the plan for next 24 hours.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Great news! Glad they made it there alive.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

somewhatshocked said:


> Great news! Glad they made it there alive.


 Really baffling to me- I never thought fish could live in a bag that long! :surprise: 

When I got them I didnt even temp acclimate them- scooped them out of that nasty water and dropped them in the tank.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Bold move, Cotton! I would have done the same.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

They both ate a bit earlier... so far so good. 
Did a quick look with light on and super quick videos with 2 different spectrum's of light overhead. It is very difficult to see how gorgeous these two fish are except in person. Despite being in a bag in a box for the last 8 days. 

https://vimeo.com/365195431

https://vimeo.com/365195860


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## SueD (Nov 20, 2010)

So glad these guys made it to you alive, at least. I know you'll be able to give them the best chance at getting healthier and stronger.


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## TheDukeAnumber1 (Sep 13, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> Despite being in a bag in a box for the last 8 days.


About how much water volume was in the bags and were there any filter pads or anything?


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

I'm glad the fish finally came in ok. I was just looking around trying to find some Coryadoras Habrosus as none of my LFS carry them. I've never had to order fish shipped. It'll be a learning experience.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Look pretty darn good to me considering 8 days in a bag, better then i looked after 6-8months in a sewer pipe capped at both ends.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Quint said:


> Look pretty darn good to me considering 8 days in a bag, better then i looked after 6-8months in a sewer pipe capped at both ends.




Wait what? lol


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> These fish are lost in USPS no -mans land. Heart-broken as they should have been to me 3 days ago. Not worried that the vendor wont make good at this point ( I am getting assurances it will be made good) I am just sick that such a beautiful pair of fish are suffering or dead.
> 
> This is why I don't like to use vendors that ship USPS with fish.
> 
> ...


I ordered some angels off Aquabid and had the exact same problem: USPS 2-day priority turned into 4 days--and during 100°+ weather. But they too were packed well and arrived in perfect condition. I'm assuming they use oxygen and something in the water to neutralize ammonia?

So glad yours finally arrived alive and you're nursing them to health--they look gorgeous!



Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I wonder if that's not a matter of more than simple recessive genes, then? If crossing two visual animals with the same simple recessive gene (or set of genes), you'd expect all offspring to resemble the parents. I bred corn snake mutations for a couple of decades and got pretty familiar with genetics on that scale -think back to the punnet squares from science class. My immediate thought is that the yellow (typical) rams are co-dominant themselves, or else the black individuals will show dark color even if only carrying the gene.
> For example:
> BB (true dark ram)
> Bb (visually a dark ram, but only carries one allele)
> ...


Are the genetics for rams as well characterized as they are for angels due to the work of Joanne Norton? If so, would black rams be analogous to double dark angels that have two copies of the dark gene--so they are slower growing, less vigorous, and have smaller spawns than other strains? But that wouldn't account for the mixed spawns some are seeing. There's a newer Black Velvet angel hybrid with more complex genetics (I'd have to look it up again) that are phenotypically almost as black as double darks, but much more vigorous. In fact, mine are quickly outstripping their gold blushing siblings. Must be hybrid vigor. One wonders if they could do the same with these rams?


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

varanidguy said:


> Wait what? lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Haha sorry, 



Ex Navy Subs


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Its official, they are fine after 8 days in a bag. 
Crazy-- who would have thunk it...

Something interesting: the juvenile discus are scared of the rams. What???
Ever since put the dark rams in with them they are all 3 huddled in corner and not eating. I haven't seen the rams charge them or anything; but they are so timid in same tank with them. This is not good, these babies need to get all the nutrition that can right now so not eating is unacceptable. So, made an executive decision that I would _not recommend_ to anyone else... I put the juvenile discus in with the alenquer adults after being exposed to the rams. 

Ahhh... could of been a disaster, but no bacterial explosion, fortunately. Always worry about that cross-contamination of foreign bacteria-- but after 48 hours that risk has past. Even more interesting to me, the adults are being very nice to the babies. Not being there typical-- "Im bigger than you so I am going to beat you up" cichlid-selves. LOL! 

So now the dark rams are in a 30 gallon all by themselves. Hopefully in time will get some off-spring.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Do you think they could grow more comfortable with the Rams over time? Or is it just not worth the effort because Discus are so... complex?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

somewhatshocked said:


> Do you think the could grow more comfortable with the Rams over time? Or is it just not worth the effort because Discus are so... complex?


Its possible that they could have become used to them, but---

Because juvenile discus have such a weak immune system, any stress can open their system up to bacterial or internal protozoan issues in the aquarium. These guys are around 3- 3.5 inches. Their immune systems are still almost nil.

Also, juveniles at this size need to eat 3-5 small feedings daily to get adequate nutrition. They hadn't ate in 2 days.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

5 days later-- doing great! (thumbs up!)

Updated video:

https://vimeo.com/366370346


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## TheDukeAnumber1 (Sep 13, 2018)

I'm amazed they lived 8 days in a bag. Still curious to know how they were bagged, how much water/air any additives ect...


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

TheDukeAnumber1 said:


> I'm amazed they lived 8 days in a bag. Still curious to know how they were bagged, how much water/air any additives ect...


 They were packaged in breather bags, paper surrounding this to not shift in box, and insulated box. 

Packaged well.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Update: These guys are doing excellent. I haven't noticed any breeding behaviors, but they sure enjoy each others company. They are pretty pampered in being the only fish in a 30 gallon tank. Like always they are very difficult to capture. I did my best.
These cichlids are very aggressive for their size. Im not used to really aggressive cichlids, but for their size these Rams are pretty intimidating to other fish. I forgot I had a BN pleco in here when I took the juvenile discus out because they were so wary of the Rams. I remembered when I noticed the rams had him cornered just under the waterline by the filter inlet. I mean they were picking at his tail. So weird. 

I am also working on cleaning up the tank, rescaping, and adding other plants. It was just getting to messy to me. Ordered some mosses from Jake to make a moss tree. Ordered a few other plants, but it will be kept pretty clean looking. Will be adding new filter inlets and outlets and a smaller, "prettier" heater. But, it has some more cleaning up left to go. 

Should I put a black background on here? Im afraid if I did Ill never be able to get a shot of these fish again ( mediocre as they are)--- they are so dark. anyways, some pics:


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

First off, they are beautiful and kudos for doing such a good job with them. I like the way the tank is configured as is, I suspect you are correct that a black background would wash them out too much. Perhaps a frosted background? It could add a touch of elegance without making the fish too unnoticeable. Regarding your experience with aggression, that is strange. In my experience, mikrogeophagus ramirezi only had aggressive behavior within conspecifics, the rams I've kept have always left other fish alone unless they were breeding, and even then their aggression was contained to a small area around the nesting site. But I've only kept German blues and golds...maybe different color genes bring out more aggressive behavior? I've personally observed this in kingsnakes...albino California kings have always been like bats out of hell for me, whereas their "normal" colored counterparts were mellow yellow.

Maybe adding some dithers will calm them down? Some kind of tetra or rasbora? Or you could keep them as a solitary pair as is, they seem to be doing great that way. 

Either way, very nice fish and I love the aquascape! Plants would really tie it all together. ;-)


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Thank you for your insights @varanidguy. 
Ive had many different South American cichlids over the years and Ive never seen any consistently harass fish outside species. 
I have seen my geophagus nose corydoras out of the way, quickly change direction- just to get them out of their way. I have seen them also do quick bursts of dominance at other cichlids--like against my biotodoma cupidos-- but very quickly. Its a quick movement that means "back off" and is over as soon as it starts. It is never a sustained harassment. 
All my cichlids have been oblivious of schoolers.
This is discus, apistogramma, Altums Angels, Scalare Angels, Blue and Bolivian rams, Biotodoma Cupidos and wavarinni, and geophagus. 
Now, Central American and African cichlids- that's a different story. They can express cross-species aggression. But, I havent kept them.

I am wondering if this is the breed? There isnt much out there on them, but I need to do some research. I actually will contact the breeder and see what he has to say about them. 

This is a breeder/quarantine tank so its never going to be stunning- lol! Its also pretty old. But, it is in my living room an I dont want to be embarrassed when people come over for the holidays. Someday ill have a fish room where I can keep a "proper" ugly breeder tank.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Amy it looks amazing. 
My difficulty was always having 'ugly' breeder tanks. Which is far from this. 
While I have no experience with rams, I think I'm breeding tanks you should make it as easy on yourself as possible with cleanings. After all, fish love breeding in very clean water, so if you can clean everything without disturbing the tank too much, that is key (in my eyes). 
Anyway, I am so excited for your progress here. It looks amazing and I cant wait until you start seeing some activity.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Rams apparently need some special considerations to get them breeding. Here is a video from Dean who works with aquarium co-op.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

minorhero said:


> Rams apparently need some special considerations to get them breeding. Here is a video from Dean who works with aquarium co-op.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhnlqnOo440


 Funny, I saw Dean Tweedle at my Sacramento Aquarium society meeting a couple months ago. He was there talking about his trip to collect fish in the Amazon.
Thanks for the video. Very helpful.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Love the slight bits of sparkly blue on their faces. 

Haven't kept Rams in more than a decade, so it's interesting to follow along. These unique little fish look great.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

somewhatshocked said:


> Love the slight bits of sparkly blue on their faces.
> 
> Haven't kept Rams in more than a decade, so it's interesting to follow along. These unique little fish look great.


 Well, we will just have to fix that. If they have some babies Ill send some your way. Just dont put even a snail in with them that you care about because they are honery little buggers. 

They are so happy now that the bit of plants are in tank, exploring everything new. They appear very curious and intelligent.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Added some plants and moss on stump. Still a bit cloudy, but you get the idea.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Decided to put a black background on here and it does look so much better. 
The fish are difficult to see regardless unless you are seeing them in person or they are on the light sand. 

But, the tank needs to look good too. 
I priced out a replacement intake/outtake to make the hardware look nicer in tank--- $55.00! Half the price of what it would cost to replace the filter. Shhesh! They get you coming and going. 
It will just have to do. Ill try soaking the plastic in a weak bleach solution to try to get the algae stains off it. 
Oh! and the heater- Ill need to look for a smaller one... maybe I can pick one up at the next auction at aquarium society meeting. 

Ill take a picture in a bit-its kinda cloudy. 
The moss tree looks cool!


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

What kind of filter/hose are you using? You should be able to get replacements for ~$10 on fleabay or Amazon. Probably could post a WTB thread to see if anyone has something that will work.

Barring that - maybe you could use black Krylon Fusion spray paint to turn your existing stuff black? Cheaper than new stuff. I use it a lot for tank work.

About black backgrounds... while that's what I prefer, I've found that even if it doesn't look better? It certainly makes it easier to see what's going on in the tank, removes visual distraction and calms skittish livestock down a bit. Helps them feel like they've really got hidey holes in the back of the tank.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

somewhatshocked said:


> What kind of filter/hose are you using? You should be able to get replacements for ~$10 on fleabay or Amazon. Probably could post a WTB thread to see if anyone has something that will work.
> 
> Barring that - maybe you could use black Krylon Fusion spray paint to turn your existing stuff black? Cheaper than new stuff. I use it a lot for tank work.
> 
> About black backgrounds... while that's what I prefer, I've found that even if it doesn't look better? It certainly makes it easier to see what's going on in the tank, removes visual distraction and calms skittish livestock down a bit. Helps them feel like they've really got hidey holes in the back of the tank.


 For the filter I needed these pieces. 

https://www.amazon.com/Fluval-Strai...45?keywords=fluval+206&qid=1573664219&sr=8-45
https://www.amazon.com/A20016-Fluva...6XYTCVVGCVD&psc=1&refRID=9MX48PGQQ6XYTCVVGCVD
https://www.amazon.com/A20001-Fluva...1SA43PFN1TE&psc=1&refRID=5Q3P1WPBV1SA43PFN1TE


I didnt think about spraying them black- that is an excellent idea. 


Picture:










The Rams did seem to color up more in their tail ( beautiful orange) and in the tinges of blue that they have on their bodies after adding the black background. So, I agree, the darker background seems to make them feel more secure in the tank. 

https://vimeo.com/372778292?activityReferer=1


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The moss is growing really well now on branches of tree- thank goodness! So is the algae, but added some snails about 10 days ago from my other tanks and they are starting to catch up. 

Added some other plants here and there as well where monte carlo hasn't done well. Will probably just end up replacing monte carlo with something else. Not enough light or lack of Co2 or both? 

Dark Rams are good- still no breeding activity as of yet, but still juveniles ( or sub-adult at least) so may be another few months until see any activity. 

Video:

https://vimeo.com/377404628


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

What an awesome looking fish! Absolutely love that coloration!

Never had rams, but this makes me want some!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Have had no breeding behaviors so far from this pair-- they just might both be females. 
Talked to the breeder and ordered another dark ram pair and 1 golden to better ensure odds of breeding. 
Breeder says they should have at least exhibited some breeding behaviors by now, so going to up the odds by getting more males and females. 
Somehow, not sure how, the goldens ensure that you will get more richly dark ram offspring then just 2 blacks alone. I need to do more studying up as to why this happens. 
Genetics is not my thing.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

I feel like I saw this somewhere, about the gold and dark ram genetics. Perhaps an aquarium co-op video where they visited a breeder somewhere. I believe they had gold, black, blue, and other types of rams. 

Really interesting on the genetics and how it all works!


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> Have had no breeding behaviors so far from this pair-- they just might both be females.
> 
> Talked to the breeder and ordered another dark ram pair and 1 golden to better ensure odds of breeding.
> 
> ...




I can almost swear the first one in your video is a male, except I can’t see how well the dorsal and ventral fins extend. Hope your next shipment comes in without a hitch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

vvDO said:


> I can almost swear the first one in your video is a male, except I can’t see how well the dorsal and ventral fins extend. Hope your next shipment comes in without a hitch.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You might very well be right. Im not too good at determining sex in these guys. 

This time I have overnight delivery. 
Should be good.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Grobbins48 said:


> I feel like I saw this somewhere, about the gold and dark ram genetics. Perhaps an aquarium co-op video where they visited a breeder somewhere. I believe they had gold, black, blue, and other types of rams.
> 
> Really interesting on the genetics and how it all works!


I know angels that are homozygous for the dark gene (DD or "double darks") are slower growing & not as vigorous as those with mixed genetics. So these days they mostly breed "Black Velvets" that are mix of dark & gold, and cross them with gold to consistently get half black velvet hybrids and half gold. Don't know if it's the same with rams. Is there some kind of online rams genetics database like the Angelfish Society has with their library of Dr Joanne Norton's articles on angel genetics?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

This video talks alot about the genetics of these dark rams. I apologize about the title of the video-- that's a bit unfortunate...
Get past that it is very informative. I would say my pair are just as dark as the ones he specifies as his high quality pair. This pair he also got from same place I got my own.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> This video talks alot about the genetics of these dark rams. I apologize about the title of the video-- that's a bit unfortunate...


LOL. At least he's refreshingly honest--if not g rated....

Thanks for sharing. Sounds like there are lots of unknowns about their genetics--which don't seem to be as straightforward as with angels. Will be fascinated to see how yours fare. Are they siblings? Sounds like they do some backcrossing of offspring with parents--which always makes me nervous. Not familiar with rams, but I think I remember reading that there have been problems with the electric blues from overbreeding, no?

Will be interested to see how your breeding experiments go....


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I just want you to hurry up and have a bunch of Ram babies so we can see how they develop.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

somewhatshocked said:


> I just want you to hurry up and have a bunch of Ram babies so we can see how they develop.


Me too ! They will be here tomorrow( or should be here tomorrow)Tom said the dark pair have already laid eggs together so should have offspring soon. He is also sending an additional dark male and a golden.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Nail-biting as I wait on these rams today. 
I guess I should settle down-- they lasted 8 days in a bag in USPS nowhereland last time I ordered a pair-


Edit: They came 10 minutes later beautiful as can be. The gold ram is gorgeous as well.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

A video: There are at least 2 males in here- 1 of the darks and the golden ram. The dark male is dominant-- look how he goes after the golden. Well, sometimes that switches after a day in my cichlids after they settle in, so that situation may turn. the Golden looks bigger... 

You can see a pair developing here as well if watch to the end. 

All are doing steller 

https://vimeo.com/378674347


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Yep, you have a male black ram for sure! So much harder to sex with solid coloration than normals or golds or even EB. I need to see some of these in person.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The breeder says they relax more to breed when pairs put in 5-10 gallon tanks. They tend to like smaller quarters, are less nervous while spawning. 
I think ill just get a cheap 5 gallon tank: put in sponge filter, heater, moss, with a bare-bottom, and put some small pots in it. that should make a good spawning tank. 
That oughta do the trick!


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I always used 20 longs for rams and apistos. Makes perfect sense that once they're paired off you could use something that small but it never occurred to me. Also back then reliable heaters under 50 watts weren't really a thing either though.


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

Discusluv said:


> This video talks alot about the genetics of these dark rams. I apologize about the title of the video-- that's a bit unfortunate...
> Get past that it is very informative. I would say my pair are just as dark as the ones he specifies as his high quality pair. This pair he also got from same place I got my own.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6yoadSTnW4







Discusluv said:


> Me too ! They will be here tomorrow( or should be here tomorrow)Tom said the dark pair have already laid eggs together so should have offspring soon. He is also sending an additional dark male and a golden.




So not sure how I've missed this thread here, but that is my video....sorry if the title wasn't too PG but thats why I didnt spell it out! Glad to know someone found my video informative! I'm actually going home today to open box with a pair of dark rams sent to me by a breeder named Tom. I'll take a guess that its one and the same. If you're interested here is a video tour I did of his fish room (this was before either he or I had any black rams)...there are also some other videos on my channel showing some of the black rams I've had (and unfortunately since lost).





. 

I started reading up about these black rams (or dark rams, or dark knight rams) a while back and was very intrigued. However, once I started seeing photos I was very very unimpressed. Photos and video really do not do these fish any justice. But seeing a true pair of black rams in person is pretty awesome!

Looks like you've got some good looking fish there @discusluv. I hope these fish, or some others being sent to you start breeding soon! 

I've had a few different dark rams now, some much darker than others. Of them I've had a few spawn with GBR resulting in nothing too special. I've only had a handful of successful spawns from a pair of true blacks. Of the 2 offspring I have left (now adolescent/sub adult), both are gold. Seems even pairs of dark rams breeding result in very few (if any) dark offspring, and better results seem to come from trying to breed a dark and a gold (which was born of a dark pair...not just regular "gold ram")


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

lksdrinker said:


> So not sure how I've missed this thread here, but that is my video....sorry if the title wasn't too PG but thats why I didnt spell it out! Glad to know someone found my video informative! I'm actually going home today to open box with a pair of dark rams sent to me by a breeder named Tom. I'll take a guess that its one and the same. If you're interested here is a video tour I did of his fish room (this was before either he or I had any black rams)...there are also some other videos on my channel showing some of the black rams I've had (and unfortunately since lost).
> 
> https://youtu.be/uhFp68wjRUU.
> 
> ...


 No problem on the title-- you didn't write it for an old grandma that doesn't like cussin. Lol!
Regardless, it is helpful and I subscribed to your channel-- so I must not of cared too much, right? 

Just remember that you have some old ladies in the hobby watching you too. 



I did get this stock from Tom. Great guy. 

I am very new to the breeding game so I will have to do some studying up before I enter into it. But, I always like the challenge of something new. If it doesn't work out- well, that's okay too. These fish are absolutely beautiful. Like you, however, Ive seen many that are not that great. So, I get you when you say that, with some examples, you have been less than impressed. 



Nice to meet the person that Ive already been watching. I like your videos-- they're great


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

Eggs yet from either of you ?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Hey, Coralbandit 

No eggs yet. But, I think I need to get a pair out of the 30 gallon and put into a 5 gallon so Rams feel more comfortable. 
After Christmas will look around locally to hunt one down. 

Should I use a sponge filter or HOB type filter?
Bare-bottomed or dusting of sand?
Pots necessary or can I just put rock and wood that I already have for spawning surface? 

Temp 82 or need to set higher?


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

Thanks for the kind words both of you !
I like sponge filters in a 5g BB with plants ,pot and tray.
Wood even if I have little pieces [I buy little pieces just for 5gs!]. 82f is fine IMO.
Here is pics of eggs and the set up from minutes ago !
Not Blacks ,but a long fin gold male with electric blue female !
















Rich is good guy when he's not being a SLACKER !


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Okay, thanks. 
Ill duplicate as instructed above. 
Hope to have some luck.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

coralbandit still said:


> Thanks for the kind words both of you !
> I like sponge filters in a 5g BB with plants ,pot and tray.
> Wood even if I have little pieces [I buy little pieces just for 5gs!]. 82f is fine IMO.
> Here is pics of eggs and the set up from minutes ago !
> ...


 Another question. 

I see that you put the saucer where they lay eggs in a box of some kind. can you link me to that particular box? There are so many I cant decide which one to get.


In the box with saucer where eggs are lain, do you just have an air-stone?


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

That's a Lees dip and pour [large].
I use the Toms also no big difference.
I place tray upright in D&P with eggs up high and add 1 drop MB.
With the eggs up high the wigglers will fall off away from any that are fungus [ I never remove bad eggs].
I keep an air stone going but not touching the eggs ,just moving the water .
When all wigglers are off tray I remove and wash it and give it back to parents .
I then do a large water change in the D&P to remove the MB [about 75%].
I replace old blue water with new TDS/temp matched water and my rams have just received their first water change before they were even swimming !


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

coralbandit still said:


> That's a Lees dip and pour [large].
> I use the Toms also no big difference.
> I place tray upright in D&P with eggs up high and add 1 drop MB.
> With the eggs up high the wigglers will fall off away from any that are fungus [ I never remove bad eggs].
> ...


excellent, thank you


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I think there is a pair forming-- look at around the 2 minute mark. 


https://vimeo.com/381259252


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Working on getting a 5- 10 gallon tank for a pair to spawn in. 
@coralbandit still
What length, height, and width would be minimums for breeding tank. I know you had said that the rams felt more comfortable spawning in tighter spaces. 
Also, the breeder tank would need to be big enough to grow the fry out ( without parents) until large enough to where wouldn't be eaten by parents and other rams in 30 gallon.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Aquarium Coop has some German Ram videos with Dean, who is an expert at breeding:

https://www.youtube.com/user/AquariumCoop/search?query=ram


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> Working on getting a 5- 10 gallon tank for a pair to spawn in.
> 
> @coralbandit still
> What length, height, and width would be minimums for breeding tank. I know you had said that the rams felt more comfortable spawning in tighter spaces.
> Also, the breeder tank would need to be big enough to grow the fry out ( without parents) until large enough to where wouldn't be eaten by parents and other rams in 30 gallon.


I like to breed in 5 and 10g tanks ,never bigger unless multiple pairs and territories .
When young it is always easier to just move parents out so fry can stay in the 5 or 10 g for 2 months easy . If one thinks they are moving fry caching and removing parents first is highly recommended as they will flip !
If I artificially hatch I move 1-2 day old free swimmers from a dip and pour into betta 1.8 g tanks for 3-5 weeks .Then they can go to 3/5/10g .
At 2-3 months I like to get rams into a 20g[I have 20 talls] or right into 40bs..
I have great flexibility how I can do it ..Leaning a little heavy of 60 tanks now and artificially hatching in dip and pours !>
I will say rams do not need as much room as many think and enjoy the comfort of clean little house or my guys lie !

I thought in the video it looked like the gold was on eggs ?? What was I seeing ?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

coralbandit still said:


> I like to breed in 5 and 10g tanks ,never bigger unless multiple pairs and territories .
> When young it is always easier to just move parents out so fry can stay in the 5 or 10 g for 2 months easy . If one thinks they are moving fry caching and removing parents first is highly recommended as they will flip !
> If I artificially hatch I move 1-2 day old free swimmers from a dip and pour into betta 1.8 g tanks for 3-5 weeks .Then they can go to 3/5/10g .
> At 2-3 months I like to get rams into a 20g[I have 20 talls] or right into 40bs..
> ...


 Did you think you might have seen eggs? I thought I saw pairing behavior, but have not noticed eggs. 

The Gold is certainly the most dominate one in the tank. 

Thank you, Tom.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Can't exactly tell what's on the rock the gold was hovering over but looked to me like it could be eggs - 0:18-0:32, again ~0:52, and once more toward the end of the video. Have been following along and very intrigued with these beautiful fishes. From what I can tell from quite a bit of web searching, the dark mutation may be more genetically complicated than a simple single recessive gene. In any event, am very excited for you and wishing you great breeding success.


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

Most are saying the dark ram [now] will be like true 'double black' angels .
The history on them is slow growers that are weak and hard to tell who is who by just looking ..
They say it takes 2 dark genes possibly in both fish ??
I have not yet had one single spawn of just darks .
I know they say Marco has them locked in but yet years later he still can't supply any ??
I think most ram breeders don't share . It is not as uncommon in trades as you would think ?
I saw the video with Dean and Cory and commented and tried to touch base with them . At that time he had no clue about why he got golds ..
They were clueless and as to date [I don't really keep up with any videos] have not acknowledged anything out loud to help others ..
Out of all Youtubers Cory and Dean are the only two I watch [at all ] or think have any morals left .
I hear the Face book Groups have these all figured out also ? Wonder where all their dark rams are ??
Wetspot just listed darks but no picture … 3 for $120 plus shipping
I wonder where Steve got them from ?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

coralbandit still said:


> Most are saying the dark ram [now] will be like true 'double black' angels .
> The history on them is slow growers that are weak and hard to tell who is who by just looking ..
> They say it takes 2 dark genes possibly in both fish ??
> I have not yet had one single spawn of just darks .
> ...


 The darks that Wetspot is offering are most likely the dark knight variety for that price. 

Ive seen several people say that they have "dark' rams and when you see them they are not pure black like the ones you supplied me. 

The various names that these fish have been given : Black Rams, Dark Rams, Black/Dark Knight has given sellers "the benefit of doubt." -especially when you are not provided a picture. 

I would never purchase this fish without a photo-- too much vagueness in the naming versus the actual color of the fish.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

coralbandit still said:


> Most are saying the dark ram [now] will be like true 'double black' angels .
> The history on them is slow growers that are weak and hard to tell who is who by just looking ..
> They say it takes 2 dark genes possibly in both fish ??
> I have not yet had one single spawn of just darks .
> ...


I saw where Marco had pair(s) that bred true. It was a video on a discus forum maybe from South Africa. Tho guess anyone could take a picture of a tankful of young dark blacks and claim they were an entire brood. I assumed the lack of supply to the US was due to export hassles as Danziger? mentions in a Cory video of their facility in Israel.


If the dark ram phenotype is due to a specific allele on both loci of a particular gene (homozygous for that trait) then two such fish should breed true. This is the case with "double dark" angels but does not appear to be so with these rams. Perhaps there is more than one gene involved or maybe a case of incomplete penetrance where not all homozygous fish express the trait or perhaps environmental factors play a roll or ... Very interesting imo.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> Can't exactly tell what's on the rock the gold was hovering over but looked to me like it could be eggs - 0:18-0:32, again ~0:52, and once more toward the end of the video. Have been following along and very intrigued with these beautiful fishes. From what I can tell from quite a bit of web searching, the dark mutation may be more genetically complicated than a simple single recessive gene. In any event, am very excited for you and wishing you great breeding success.


 Thank you! I ordered a 10 gallon tank, but need to cycle it to prepare for the fish. 

In the interim I put some flat stones in the 30 gallon and am going to get some pottery today to make zones in aquarium for any pairs that may spawn. 

I think that, with this, if there are any eggs Ill see it easier. I have very poor eyesight, despite bifocals-- the perils of age---


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

coralbandit still said:


> Most are saying the dark ram [now] will be like true 'double black' angels .
> The history on them is slow growers that are weak and hard to tell who is who by just looking ..
> They say it takes 2 dark genes possibly in both fish ??
> I have not yet had one single spawn of just darks .
> ...


I just looked, Wetspot has the "Dark Knight" variety. Most likely similar to the ones SecondhandPat has on Simplydiscus.

Edit: Im going to call and get a picture when they open.


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

schooldazed said:


> I saw where Marco had pair(s) that bred true. It was a video on a discus forum maybe from South Africa. Tho guess anyone could take a picture of a tankful of young dark blacks and claim they were an entire brood. I assumed the lack of supply to the US was due to export hassles as Danziger? mentions in a Cory video of their facility in Israel.
> 
> 
> If the dark ram phenotype is due to a specific allele on both loci of a particular gene (homozygous for that trait) then two such fish should breed true. This is the case with "double dark" angels but does not appear to be so with these rams. Perhaps there is more than one gene involved or maybe a case of incomplete penetrance where not all homozygous fish express the trait or perhaps environmental factors play a roll or ... Very interesting imo.


 
I am living proof you don't need to understand any of that ! I don't understand any of that ! I feel like I need to study long fin fish ? I really don't understand genetics !I want my long fin swordtails to have long fin fry ..Is that asking too much ?
But yes I believe with the right combo you get all darks ? Just gotta do it .. Trying and hoping right now..



Discusluv said:


> I just looked, Wetspot has the "Dark Knight" variety. Most likely similar to the ones SecondhandPat has on Simplydiscus.
> 
> Edit: Im going to call and get a picture when they open.


Pats are not dark ,they are black . They are easy to get !
Such a shame everyone makes names up .
I only call mine dark because they are darker then most blacks ..
I can't call them dark knights as I have never got a fish from Marco ?? My rams came from Israel not Africa !
Marco got his rams from the same source I did so I figure as dumb as I am that this is where my passion [ and 60+ tanks ] pays off !
I sure did not get where I am with rams by trying a couple times ! 7 years non stop now approximately with the blacks[semi dark] from Israel with me since early 2017 ..


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

This is what Wetspot is carrying. 
Representative said they are from Florida.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @coralbandit still,

I talked to Dean last weekend for about 45 minutes; I usually 'babysit' his 'fish room' and 50+ tanks when he is out of town. He is still breeding the Black Rams (which he acquired in Vancouver BC about a year or so ago). They still are throwing off about 25% black with the rest being 'normal' or 'Gold'.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Nice babysitting gig! Does he let you take any photos or share them?


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

That is as far from Dark as blacks get besides my Black /EBR cross ? Those are just black rams not worth the asking price at all.
And an FYI ; 'From Florida" is usually breeder slang for Seagrest Farms as few can respectably say the name out loud and claim quality stock ?

Nice Gig Roy ! I tried to message Dean and Cory to see if they wanted help but I guess when 100k people view maybe you don't ever read or respond to any of the comments ?
I really would have thought Dean would be farther along? Maybe I am not doing so bad for an uneducated old guy !??


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

coralbandit still said:


> That is as far from Dark as blacks get besides my Black /EBR cross ? Those are just black rams not worth the asking price at all.
> And an FYI ; 'From Florida" is usually breeder slang for Seagrest Farms as few can respectably say the name out loud and claim quality stock ?
> 
> Nice Gig Roy ! I tried to message Dean and Cory to see if they wanted help but I guess when 100k people view maybe you don't ever read or respond to any of the comments ?
> I really would have thought Dean would be farther along? Maybe I am not doing so bad for an uneducated old guy !??


 If others were farther along than you in the states they would be offering this product up for sale- that is not happening.


I would not pay 40.00 a piece for what Wetspot is selling. Ive seen a lot of those for cheaper. 



I didn't hesitate with the price I paid for the Dark rams I got from you, Tom. I knew what I was looking for. I may not be a great breeder, but I know quality stock when I see it.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Streetwise said:


> Nice babysitting gig! Does he let you take any photos or share them?


Hi Streetwise,

I've not done it and have never asked if I could.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Now I feel embarrassed. I’m grateful he has shared so much.

Cheers


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

*The Breeding Project: Dark Rams*



coralbandit still said:


> I am living proof you don't need to understand any of that ! I don't understand any of that ! I feel like I need to study long fin fish ? I really don't understand genetics !I want my long fin swordtails to have long fin fry ..Is that asking too much ?
> But yes I believe with the right combo you get all darks ? Just gotta do it .. Trying and hoping right now..
> 
> 
> ...


Mikrogeophagus Ramirezi hails from the savannahs of Venezuela and Colombia, so don't think if it matters if our talented breeders are located in Israel, South Africa, Germany, Czech Republic, Canada, United States of America, Singapore or Malaysia (giant fish farms aside). 

I've followed Marco's development of his 'Dark Knight Ram' which began in January 2016 w/ 'Black Rams' sourced from Israel (Danzinger). After about 14 months of line breeding he achieved very dark colored spawn from a few pairs. He assigned the name 'Dark Knight Ram' to differentiate it from the not quite dark/black rams that were coming out of Israel as Black Rams at that time. 

However, years on, Marco will state clearly that Danzinger and he have both arrived at extremely dark black rams, via different line breeding programs. So now Danzinger Black Rams are very black and therefore they've kept the name Black Rams despite the newer fish being much better than earlier efforts.. and Marco's Dark Knight are well very dark... I like some of things he's doing with strengthening the strain and highlighting iridescence. 

What's really clouding all of this is the loose naming. Very reminiscent of what happens when Discus strains are developed (remember how dirty/peppered Melons were years ago?). Applying the names to specimens that result in a ton of throwbacks in the spawns makes folks question the naming conventions too.

If you look at the capabilities of Danzingers (video posted to one of Marco's threads)




and look at the capabilities of Marco (early fishroom foto from one of his threads)
 (early thread) 








in terms of size, I think it's obvious why Marcos can't supply much demand beyond the African Continent. He's a very passionate hobbyist, not a large scale breeder. 
He is however, gearing to supply a few hobbyist in the USA. He certainly has passion. I'll try to get some from him in the spring as a 'team' purchase with others so that the shipping costs is under control. 

There's a fellow over in Germany, Peter Guennell who is doing allot of work with orange/red colors in the Ramirezi. (this is the guy that did the original Powder blues too).

I do look at Peter Gallagher's Ram Group of Facebook, but Facebook is so hard to follow someone's progress... But occasionally the solid work of someone will show up there. Forums like PlantedTank.net and SimplyDiscus.com are much nicer for continuity.

Yeah, lots of Peters interested in Rams. :laugh2:

Personally, I'm excited to see so many of you having such success with these fish. Really cool to see some of you understanding and unlocking some of the genetics. This little Microgeophagus Ramirezi might become the clown fish of the fresh water hobby (crazy what salt water breeders are accomplishing with clown fish). Lot's of neat things happening with Rams beyond long weak fins and deformed bulbous balloon bodies. 

I'm watching Tom's posts as well, as I get over to New England several times a year and my family lives just southeast of Saratoga Springs! Going to have to come back with some!

DiscusLuv thank you for starting this thread and giving us all of the updates..


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

We have eggs! 
The pair is the dark ram and gold ram. 

I just got a 10 gallon today. I wonder if I did daily water changes I can take the eggs ( they are on a flat rock) and put in new tank. We do that with discus, but not sure it would work with fry. 

What to do!!

https://vimeo.com/384089705



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

FischAutoTechGarten said:


> Mikrogeophagus Ramirezi hails from the savannahs of Venezuela and Colombia, so don't think if it matters if our talented breeders are located in Israel, South Africa, Germany, Czech Republic, Canada, United States of America, Singapore or Malaysia (giant fish farms aside).
> 
> I've followed Marco's development of his 'Dark Knight Ram' which began in January 2016 w/ 'Black Rams' sourced from Israel (Danzinger). After about 14 months of line breeding he achieved very dark colored spawn from a few pairs. He assigned the name 'Dark Knight Ram' to differentiate it from the not quite dark/black rams that were coming out of Israel as Black Rams at that time.
> 
> ...




Thank you for this post! 
I miss posts routinely and am sorry to say this was one of them. 
I am a newbie to breeding so this will be a stumbling attempt. But, I figure open forums like this are the best way to achieve success. When you share the stumbling and small successes as you learn from your mistakes others learn as well. These little fish are mesmerizing- and I’ve raised a lot of fish in 3 decades of fish- keeping. [emoji4]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

Glad to see the rams spawning for you !
Peter make sure to touch bae with me whenever you came back this way .
I love meeting up with fish people .
I have a problem with the names as I would like to accurately describe the fish .
I now have 'Dark' rams but not pitch black .
I feel a grading system needs to implemented as IMO not pitch black is not worth the same and it goes all the way to just plain black that are GBR with black instead of blue .


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

*The Breeding Project: Dark Rams*

I’m so frustrated because having to use Tapatalk because I spilled coffee on my keyboard [emoji853] I usually do this about once a year. I think This last time may have been a little more than a year. A record for me. 
Hate typing on my phone. I spell more words incorrectly than correctly and That just doesn’t work well with me. 

I got the tank set-up: filter ( sponge from well-established aquarium), heater, bare- bottom with java fern and mosses ( plants may help them feel comfortable ). 

I’m holding off on adding the pair a little for tank to get up to temp and settle. I don’t have much hope this spawn will work out, but I will be ready for the next one. 

Yes, am doing fish- in cycle. Am I worried about ammonia/ nitrite toxicity? Not in the least. I will be the filter for this tank for an indeterminate amount of time. (Ie. daily water changes. ). Done it many times before. 

Ordered some brine shrimp eggs and a container for starting them. This is all new to me—- oughta be interesting. I need to look at You tube videos because I don’t even know how to do it. 
Kept fish a long time, but just came into being interested in breeding in last year. 

I get a picture of set- up here soon. 

Edit: Tank: 










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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The golden Ram still protecting eggs. 
If get fry, hopefully the brine shrimp eggs/ hatching kit gets to me before need it. 

The golden ram is keeping the other fish away from eggs. 


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## TheDukeAnumber1 (Sep 13, 2018)

What kit did you buy? I do baby brine mostly DIY myself. Once you use baby brine you won't go back. It's the best.


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

I hatch in a 2l bottle using a rigid air line to keep the bubbles coming from the bottom. The 2l bottles are the same as cones [sealed on bottom with the cap] for free instead of $50 !
Not having the hatcher connected to anything helps also as it needs to be rinsed at least if not cleaned after every use ..
I just remove the airline let the hatched shrimp settle for a minute and then syphon them off with another rigid airline into a sieve ..
Brine shrimp direct for the win on eggs and info ..
https://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/about-us/articles/brine-shrimp-hatching-instructions-equipment/


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Well, already dropped the 50.00 for the breeding dish, a net, and eggs. 

Next time Ill be smarter.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The saga continues...
the Gold Ram killed the dark ram. 
Is the Gold the male? He is still guarding the eggs. 
But what jerk!


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## TheDukeAnumber1 (Sep 13, 2018)

Ugh, such a bummer, hopefully those eggs have good genes.

For the baby brine I use glass for funsies, prefer the hose to go into the bottom for easy collection, and topfin has the lowest profile heater with a temp controller I could find. It's due for a scrubbing.


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> The saga continues...
> the Gold Ram killed the dark ram.
> Is the Gold the male? He is still guarding the eggs.
> But what jerk!


Yea that's a male .
They can be pretty rough ,too bad he got her .
He did get his mate right ? Not just one of the others ?
If you have not I would move him and eggs so he is not around others ..
I have had others say males will kill all other rams ..
My experience so far is the blacks ,darks ,golds [anything from that line ] are among some of the most aggressive rams most have ever seen or had . I just call them 'hit or miss' as some are the best parents I have seen and others homicidal maniacs !
We are discussing and using alder cones now with the darks as one of my buddies said it calmed the darks he got from me .
The video I posted that looks horrible here has a black female with gold long fin on their 3 set of fry . This time they have 5 alder cones in their 10g tank and they seem to be doing better ?
We are learning with these guys still everyday ..
I hate to separate pairs as IMO it is hard to get them back together safely but with these guys sometimes you have too.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> The saga continues...
> 
> the Gold Ram killed the dark ram.
> 
> ...




Once they hatch... put him in time out!! 

Sorry to hear, similar thing happened to me with golds... though the female jumped, luckily into a bucket of water that I was prepping for water change. This actually happened twice, then the female eventually died. Never got to the wiggler stage so no more rams for me, but these darks have me interested in trying again.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Thanks guys, He is still hovering around the eggs.

I worry about putting this male back with the other 4 darks now that I found out how murderous he can be.

Edit: Did a 25% water change-- he didnt seem to mind. Also added some metheylene blue to prevent fungus on eggs.
Put a bit of that powdered fry food in water to try to "psyche him out" that there is food for fry. [Hey, I dont know what Im doing... quit laughing, lol!] Also gave him just a very small bit of bloodworms, which he hasnt ate yet. Ill take out if not eaten in a couple hours. 

He appears to be fanning over eggs? To prevent fungus?
This is day 2, should I stop with metheleyne blue when do water change tomorrow?
Should I leave him in there if fry hatch or take him out? 
Should I consider him not good stock because he kills females and put him with my discus?
Should I put him back with the other darks in the 30 gallon?
Anything else should be thinking about? 

Ill order some alder cones, I thought I had some but I dont. Just catulpa leaves...


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Added some pottery to the 30 gallon. Now these guys will have spawning sites and areas to hide from aggressive males. As we can see, these males are mean---
Along with being mean when spawning, they are also very curious, they were swimming in and out of the pots and checking out the saucers as soon as I put them in. 
Please forgive the dirty glass and green algae, this tank is not given much time to make it prettier.


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

He is fanning the eggs yes .
I don't use any MB if the parents are hatching the eggs .I only use it when artificially hatching .
I would leave the male for 3 days - a week with the fry at least .
Once they look for food or recognize it on their own he can go .
It might be safest to add the gold in with the disc at least for a cool off period..


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

He has moved the eggs to the backside of tank where the side glass meets the bottom of tank. The area is lined with clay pot, saucer, round stone, making a little area where he can contain them. They are actually in stage just before free-swimming. You can see them moving, jumping around sometimes slightly? 

Im worried that the brine-shrimp will not get to me in time--- 
Are there any other live foods could use that my local fish store in Sacramento may have?



A thought: I added wood and plants to this tank from well-established tanks, I wonder if they will have some microfauna that will feed the fry for a bit, If that's the case maybe I should really load the tank down with plants from these other tanks to tide them over.

Edit:
Did daily water change. These are definitely fry now because they are starting to stray and the Golden is having to chase them down and bring them back to the designated area he has enclosed for them. You can see in video how he kinda goes in circles looking after the fry. 
I added a few more plants from other tanks, I will add more tomorrow to try to get some micro-fauna in tank. I am also putting in small ( very small) pinches of the New Life Spectrum Fry food. 

If this spawn fails, will put the golden in the discus tank for a week and then re-introduce him into the 30 gallon where the four other dark rams are. 
Only problem is, I think i have 2 darks getting ready to pair up and spawn. They are keeping the other 2 dark at other end of the tank.

I wonder if I could get a divider of some sort for the 30-- making it into a 15 gallon to hold more controlled groups together as I learn pairs and troublemakers-- lol ( you know who you are golden boy!) He is doing a great job with the fry so far so I dont want to be too mad with him. But, he did kill a female. 

I may need to order another couple Goldens from Tom to try out a better, more well-behaved male or females. 

Sorry, lots of ramblings--- this is just me trying to figure out logistics: patterns and best methods.

https://vimeo.com/384398053


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I thought the fry were dead this morning because I saw no movement, but moved the driftwood with java fern and moss and some came swimming out of it.
These guys are so small I can barely see them with my bifocals. 

I took the male out last night and put him in the discus tank. He is unpredictable- Id rather have control of the situation. 

I will feed a little boiled egg yolk. Idea got off internet. Very small amount mixed with a bit of water to make paste and use a syringe to add to area where you see them. 
Also on tap-- another water change. I think ill also add some catulpa leaves to make another surface for microrganisms to grow on. Alder cones should be here today also,


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Day 4: Several on front glass this morning, 

Ill post more here when I have some coffee and wake up.

------

Counted 17 on front glass this morning, 3 on side glass. Wonder why they are on front glass? This is a new thing. 
I lowered the water about 40% yesterday per advice from Tom. This so the fry have an easier time of finding food. 
I also added some alder cones, but too many for my liking because heavily tinted and I cannot see into tank too well. I took half of them out.

Today will be more of the same. Water change and observation. 
Do I look like I know what Im doing? Pfft- if it works --- pure luck.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Im putting this here because I dont know where else to put it. I just checked my daily average of posts in statistics-- 5. 
I need to get busy.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Im seeing activity all around the tank. This activity is not swimming around from fry, but short bursts and wiggling. 
I guess I am still in the "wiggler stage". For some reason I thought that this stage only lasted a few days, but it looks like it is at least 4 days from eggs being laid. 

I did a bit of reading and it looks like it takes until day 5 to get to free-swimming stage. So, hopefully I will see that tomorrow or the next day. The brine shrimp gets delivered tomorrow and will be ready by the next day. I will feed the NLS fry Starter and egg yolk until then- hopefully that and the infusoria in tank will get them through. 

I watched some videos on hatching ram eggs on your own, without the parents, this will be the way I will do it next time. Got some breeder boxes to make this possible. I dont want anymore dead females.

I found a great video on feeding Ram fish fry brine shrimp. I subscribed to this guys channel, he is a great teacher. He is excellent at explaining to even the most basic beginner.






This one is excellent too on Breeding Rams and set-ups:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The fry are swimming further- getting stronger. When did water change today, noticed more response by fry to movement in tank. 

I have an HOB that is just trickling into tank, so that is sound you hear. 

https://vimeo.com/385079939


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Some thoughts from today. 

*Do not need to put so much "stuff" in the breeder tank. The rock is coming out when this batch is done. You learn as you go.

* Need to use a sponge filter next time so I can lower the water level even more. The tank is a 10 gallon and I have water level lowered to 5 gallons, but could lower it even more ( probably to 2.5 gallons ) while eggs hatching, at wiggler stage, and for first few days going free-swimming. cant do that with an HOB because need water up higher for filter to work. 
Also, the plants at different points give the young fry an anchor from one area of the tank to next. They also will eat/rest at top of water line in floating plants.

*It is important to have moss and plants in aquarium from established tank to allow the young fry some early food-- infusoria. 

*The dry powder fry starter and egg yolk works in a pinch. At least it has for the last couple days have been feeding it. I was very careful to only put in a bit at a time; but, fed 4 small feedings with two 50% water changes on tank. One water change around 11:00 am and another at 4:00 pm. 

Short video this evening. Look at their little eye-balls -- they are adorable!

https://vimeo.com/385146857?activityReferer=1


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Day 6- Fry feeding off top of water. 
Hopefully will get some baby brine shrimp from set-up this evening.

https://vimeo.com/385177512


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

You're almost over the hump! Pretty soon you'll have a swarm of juvenile rams! Very excited for you, can you see any color differences in person yet?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> You're almost over the hump! Pretty soon you'll have a swarm of juvenile rams! Very excited for you, can you see any color differences in person yet?


 Do you think so? 

I cant believe they are still alive! I really thought that this would be a situation where I would have to try several times because Ive never tried to raise any fry. 

But, of course, Im not out of the woods yet. 

I cant see any color differences, no. They are all silver colored. 



Something that I wonder about. Would this fry be able to survive just on this Fry starter until they get to where they can eat crushed flake? 

If they could, would it be as nutritious as BBS? 

Im not going to test that question at this point ( later), but Im curious to know the dietary differences between using the two.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I consider newly hatched BBS a necessity for breeding dwarf cichlids, but a lot of that might be ingrained habit. I certainly didn't deduce that through trial and error. But it's a pretty perfect food source and the right size. I wouldn't recommend trying them on just dry foods, but for all I know it can be done.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I consider newly hatched BBS a necessity for breeding dwarf cichlids, but a lot of that might be ingrained habit. I certainly didn't deduce that through trial and error. But it's a pretty perfect food source and the right size. I wouldn't recommend trying them on just dry foods, but for all I know it can be done.


 You got to the heart of my question.
BBS- the best food/ necessity in raising fry _or _the most nutritious, economical solution for a large breeding project. Is this deemed "the best" in terms of large breeding operations because it is attached to economic value?
Or, is a high-quality powdered food no contest in nutrition for fry. 

I may need to do some digging to answer this question.

Here is a study that demonstrates feeding of BBS up to 14 days of hatch is better than prepared foods. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3631118/


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Another dark pair has decided to spawn on the back wall in the 30 gallon. Why couldn't they have done it on a surface I could move> I put enough pottery, flat rocks etc for them to pick...
'
I suppose I could try suctioning out, but Im such an amateur at this I'd probably just destroy all the eggs.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

They're adhered pretty well to the surface they are laid on, I'd be loathe to try it. Might be best to just wait until they hatch and transfer them as hoppers.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> They're adhered pretty well to the surface they are laid on, I'd be loathe to try it. Might be best to just wait until they hatch and transfer them as hoppers.


I think your right. Ill wait and see...


Edit: The fry are loving the BBS:
https://vimeo.com/manage/385389604/general


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Day 7- As of today, distinct color differences in fry. The golden color is definitely dominate- but, I see some blacks. From what Ive heard/read, the black fry are weaker ( Tom would need to confirm that, however). I wonder if that means that the black are weaker at all stages of fry development or up to a certain period. There is so little information on these fish that all searches bring back a big goose egg.

I will try to get a video to see if I can capture the color differences. Someone skilled or with a better camera/ video most likely could. 

On another topic--Looked this morning at other tank, all eggs eaten from other spawn.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Congrats on getting some darks! Can't wait to see progression photos. 

I wouldn't sweat a new pair eating their eggs once, I don't think first time ram breeders figure out the ropes until a couple or few tries. And if they paired off once, they will again.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Day 8- 
Video showing what looks to me like color variation in fry-- or am I just seeing things?
What do you see? Do you see gold and dark fry? 

https://vimeo.com/385609866

Brine shrimp set-up. 
Brine shrimp breeder dishes from BrineShrimp Direct


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## Squisher (Nov 18, 2019)

Looks like some are darker than the others to me. But most all of what I know of breeding rams has been from following this thread. Lol. I'm enjoying following along though. Amazing.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Squisher said:


> Looks like some are darker than the others to me. But most all of what I know of breeding rams has been from following this thread. Lol. I'm enjoying following along though. Amazing.


 Haha! Im glad someone is enjoying it. 

I know in the future someone that wants to dive into breeding dark rams will be grateful to read this thread. 

Not because it has all the answers, but because it will show the progression of the fry ( growth patterns, color patterns of fry)--- something that is larger than me or what I contribute here. 



If you have any specific questions or even suggestions do not hesitate to speak up. I welcome it,


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> Brine shrimp set-up.
> Brine shrimp breeder dishes from BrineShrimp Direct


I'd heard of DIY BS setups made from soda bottles, but never wine glasses....

Joking aside, I'm loving this thread and following avidly. Doing the same with my hybrid Black Velvet angels, so am especially interested to see what proportions of golds & blacks you get from this pairing, and what the genetics are. Time to sharpen your pencil and start filling out those Punnet squares?

Subscribed!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> I'd heard of DIY BS setups made from soda bottles, but never wine glasses....
> 
> Joking aside, I'm loving this thread and following avidly. Doing the same with my hybrid Black Velvet angels, so am especially interested to see what proportions of golds & blacks you get from this pairing, and what the genetics are. Time to sharpen your pencil and start filling out those Punnet squares?
> 
> Subscribed!


 Lol! I know, people are appalled that I am not DIY with these brine shrimp breeding containers: the 2 liter bottles, air stone, airline tubes, etc...
Thats nice if you have a fish room, but I do not.
These have to sit in my kitchen and they cant be ugly--- I just cant stand it. Now these look fine - even next to the wine glasses. 



Whats a Punnet square? Im kidding. The genetics are my next aspect that Im going to be working on clarifying. As yet, its still a bit confusing to me.


Tom has given me some good advice to begin: 

_
Gold and dark get 50/50 color wise . Now on the darks they say they are double dark like black angels then 25% of your fry are DD and they can only IME be dark .Mixing gold will always get you 50/50 .All my experience says gold to golds get 100% gold so we supposedly just need to get there with the darks ?
Nothing wrong with using the gold the creator did, but now when the fry grow you want to pair the darkest ,Have no fear of brother to sister breeding either ..If you have adults from the parnets of either when you think the fry are large enough to breed that is best [father to daughter or son to mother ] but very difficult or again down the road 6-8 months [strap in !] ..I say very difficult with rams with a chuckle ...That may actually be the whole stall in the process?? Breeding the sibling back to the parent ..."_


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> Day 8-
> Video showing what looks to me like color variation in fry-- or am I just seeing things?
> What do you see? Do you see gold and dark fry?


I'm near certain a few are dark. The others look "normal" to me, but they're really too small to tell yet, and I've no normal ram fry to compare them to. Would you say you have about 25% dark fry in there? Doesn't appear to half from the video, but I'm just gazing on a group and not counting. It will be interesting to see the ratio when they gain some size. 

I had no idea such brine shrimp breeding contraptions existed. I always used gallon jars with an airstone splashing saltwater everywhere, that's definitely a cleaner look for the modern kitchen!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I'm near certain a few are dark. The others look "normal" to me, but they're really too small to tell yet, and I've no normal ram fry to compare them to. Would you say you have about 25% dark fry in there? Doesn't appear to half from the video, but I'm just gazing on a group and not counting. It will be interesting to see the ratio when they gain some size.
> 
> I had no idea such brine shrimp breeding contraptions existed. I always used gallon jars with an airstone splashing saltwater everywhere, that's definitely a cleaner look for the modern kitchen!


 They are pretty cool and so easy to use. No need for an air-stone at all. The plant mat I will also use for spring /summer vegetable starts so it was a good value to purchase. 



I do not think there is 25% dark- no. Much less. I think when all is said and done out of every 10 golds I will have 1 dark. But, maybe this isnt the final coloration becuase Tom said its very early to tell-- we will see.
------------------

In this video you can see the brine shrimp in their stomachs 

https://vimeo.com/385748361


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Brine shrimp set-up.
> Brine shrimp breeder dishes from BrineShrimp Direct


Very curious to see how this does for you. Looked it up and seems perfect for a batch of fry!


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> Whats a Punnet square? Im kidding. The genetics are my next aspect that Im going to be working on clarifying. As yet, its still a bit confusing to me.
> 
> Tom has given me some good advice to begin:
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing Tom's advice. It sounds exactly like the breeding & genetics of Black Velvet angels--with black-black pairings producing 25% double dark, 50% black velvet hybrids (phenotypically black), and 25% gold. Here's a link to an article by Dr Joanne Norton on Black Velvet genetics: TAS Library - Dr Norton Article: Black Velvet Angelfish

So are black-to-black double dark ram offspring less vigorous than the others like they are in angels? That's why Black Velvets have become so popular, though I'm told some breeders have been able to breed for more vigorous double darks. And what do the mixed black-gold offspring look like? Are they the same dark phenotype as well, or intermediate in coloring? My Black Velvets seem to have hybrid vigor growing exceptionally fast, where as the golds are much smaller and less vigorous. (Just posted some pics on my 55g tank journal showing the difference in fish--presumably siblings--of the same age)

Breeding siblings or back to parents makes me nervous about inbreeding, but that's how breeders fix any new strain. How strong are the pair bonds in rams? Can you just split up a pair, throw them in with other fish and they'll pair off again? So much for love LOL

Can't wait to see how yours turn out. Getting the popcorn ready....


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

@Desert Pupfish
Thank you for that link-- it is exactly what I need to read. 

Yes, that what Tom says, that the black to black are less vigorous. 
I plan to try to separate the blacks from the golds as soon as it is possible to definitively do so ( and safe to the fry). Tom says that that would be the best case scenario-- so that the blacks are made to only compete for food among themselves, making it easier for them to grow to maturity. 

The gold male that is the father of this group of fry is the result of a black and a gold ram. From what I understand, the really dark rams must both be progeny of a gold/black ram. 
There is difference in saturation of dark color of dark rams, Some are lighter, some are darker.
The breeders must hand-pick the darkest colors and breed them among themselves?

I dont know what you mean by intermediate-- Ill need to read that article so I can learn the language you are speaking in  I mean, of course, intermediate means "in the middle of; midway; between to points," but, Im sure there are more nuances to this in regard to breeding. 

Many thanks for these questions, you dont know how much this has helped me to ask the right questions myself.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Breeding siblings or back to parents makes me nervous about inbreeding, but that's how breeders fix any new strain. How strong are the pair bonds in rams? Can you just split up a pair, throw them in with other fish and they'll pair off again? So much for love LOL


In my experience, yes male rams will breed any receptive female. I had a great male breeder that I used with multiple females. Apiso norberti and some other dwarf cichlids form solid pair bonds though. As inbreeding related fish goes, I think you have to do that for an awful lot of generations before you'll encounter noticeable genetic problems. As far as I know, that's true with all fish and for reptiles as well. I produced thousands of corn snakes and more often than not individuals carrying a certain gene were siblings and I saw no more undesirable mutations than when breeding unrelated stock. When you get into mammals, my understanding is the practice can cause problems much sooner.


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## butchblack (Oct 25, 2019)

Bump:


Grobbins48 said:


> Very curious to see how this does for you. Looked it up and seems perfect for a batch of fry!


How well does the brine shrimp hatching dishes work discusluv? The info online looks good, but it's always better when someone you know likes it.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

butchblack said:


> Bump:
> 
> How well does the brine shrimp hatching dishes work discusluv? The info online looks good, but it's always better when someone you know likes it.


 This set-up and the dishes are working perfect for me. I can see that if you have quite a few tanks to feed BBS this wouldn't work; but, with my 1 tank it is doing just fine. 

I think that if you had only 100-200 fry to feed 4x daily, this set-up would be excellent for you. 



Its very easy:
Use 1 quart of water. I am using distilled, but I dont think that is necessary. 

P0ur salted water into reservoir at marked-line.

Put in two measures of the brine shrimp eggs that is included in jar around outside perimeter of dish.
There is a hole right in center of lid of dish that the brine shrimp move to when hatched ( they are drawn to the light). 

The young brine shrimp sink to the strainer under the opening to light. 

Feed fish by using the strainer to lift out young baby brine shrimp into a small cup of water. 

Pour into tank. 

Viola!


Here is an informative video I found that demonstrates the procedures need to take very well:


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> @Desert Pupfish
> I dont know what you mean by intermediate-- Ill need to read that article so I can learn the language you are speaking in  I mean, of course, intermediate means "in the middle of; midway; between to points," but, Im sure there are more nuances to this in regard to breeding.
> 
> Many thanks for these questions, you dont know how much this has helped me to ask the right questions myself.


Sorry for all the genetics jargon. By intermediate I meant a phenotype that's intermediate in color between homozygous dark black (two dark genes D/D, or double dark in angelspeak) and gold (homozygous for two gold genes g/g)

From what I'm reading from you & Tom, it sounds like your dark rams are hybrids like Black Velvet angels, with a combination of dark & gold genes, and dark is the dominant phenotype (i.e. those with dark genes look dark) The question is whether you can breed dark to dark rams, and come out with a homozygous dark that a)survive to adulthood, and b)breed true. In angels, double darks are slow growing runts with a lower survival rate, but they will breed true. When pairing them with another type to breed hybrids, it's preferable to use a dark male because the dark females have smaller spawns. 

Fascinating stuff--at least to geeks like me. Think back to high school biology and Father Mendel breeding his pea flowers. And those Punnett squares....


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Sorry for all the genetics jargon. By intermediate I meant a phenotype that's intermediate in color between homozygous dark black (two dark genes D/D, or double dark in angelspeak) and gold (homozygous for two gold genes g/g)
> 
> From what I'm reading from you & Tom, it sounds like your dark rams are hybrids like Black Velvet angels, with a combination of dark & gold genes, and dark is the dominant phenotype (i.e. those with dark genes look dark) The question is whether you can breed dark to dark rams, and come out with a homozygous dark that a)survive to adulthood, and b)breed true. In angels, double darks are slow growing runts with a lower survival rate, but they will breed true. When pairing them with another type to breed hybrids, it's preferable to use a dark male because the dark females have smaller spawns.
> 
> Fascinating stuff--at least to geeks like me. Think back to high school biology and Father Mendel breeding his pea flowers. And those Punnett squares....


 I do remember Father Mendel-- being confused by his punnet squares and crying on my paper because I couldn't do my homework. :|

I was always the student who always had their nose in a book--- but, it was literature. 

It took college courses in Physical Anthropology and Astronomy to appreciate science. 

Genetics? Still a mystery.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Fascinating stuff--at least to geeks like me. Think back to high school biology and Father Mendel breeding his pea flowers. And those Punnett squares....


I'm fascinated by it as well and it gets complicated fast in reptiles and fishes where there can be a lot more going on than the simple recessive genes in Mendel's peas. We have simple recessive genes, dominant genes, codominant genes, and in lots of species -line bred traits also exist. To further complicate things, there are "visual recessives" sometimes. In these cases, individuals who carry only one copy of a gene can be visually different from fish who do not. I suspect dark angels may have something along these lines going on. It was famous in the corn snake world with a mutation called tessera. A tessera bred to a normal would produce half tesseras so it was originally considered "codominant". But after further breeding trials, it was figured out that babies who carry only one copy of the gene look exactly like a homozygous individual. Seeing as these were $1200 snakes when they came out, it was very easy for unscrupulous (or confused!) sellers to sell snakes that looked exactly like a "super tessera" (carrying two copies of the gene). 

Some kind soul out there made a "corn snake calculator" that would show what to expect breeding any set of genetics to another. Maybe in time someone will be able to do the same with some of these cichlids.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> I do remember Father Mendel-- being confused by his punnet squares and crying on my paper because I couldn't do my homework. :|
> 
> I was always the student who always had their nose in a book--- but, it was literature.
> 
> ...


Hope I didn't trigger any PTSD for you LOL

I suck at math, but genetics has always fascinated me. Helps to have some real life examples that correlate with the gobbledygook in the Punnett squares. What made the lightbulb come on for me was the explanation of the inheritance of brown & blue eye genes--classic dominant/recessive gene relationship. Dr Norton's articles do a good job of explaining the relationship between color patterns and the genes that cause them (phenotype-genotype) . Lots of explanatory narrative, and lots of pictures. She has articles on both gold gene inheritance, as well as dark genes.

Happy reading. Maybe you can publish your findings and become the Dr Joanne Norton of black rams?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Happy reading. Maybe you can publish your findings and become the Dr Joanne Norton of black rams?


:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Next month, February 2nd, is a "sharing" meeting at the Sacramento aquarium society. We have time to do a 5-10 minute presentation on an aquarium we have, fish, etc... I am going to share on the accidental breeding of my Rams ( big grin).


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

@coralbandit still

Tom, needed some help if you would, tomorrow is day 14 and I was thinking about their feeding going forward.
How long do I feed BBS?
I remember that you had said at some point to get them Golden pearls from Kens Fish? What size do I start them on? Should i also order each size that is offered to feed them over next few months?
Any other foods to incorporate? At what time? 

I dont want to do microworms if I can avoid it- that just turns my stomach. Im a bit queasy that way.


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

Yea they should be able to eat 100 micron golden pearls now ..
I use the golden pearls and grow meal all sizes but of r fry 00-1 from meal and 100-300 golden pearls..
They were already feeding on the elgg yolk so they should recognize anything you offer like even crushed flakes ..


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

coralbandit still said:


> Yea they should be able to eat 100 micron golden pearls now ..
> I use the golden pearls and grow meal all sizes but of r fry 00-1 from meal and 100-300 golden pearls..
> They were already feeding on the elgg yolk so they should recognize anything you offer like even crushed flakes ..


 So I dont need to feed the BB shrimp anymore? I actually dont mind doing so if it is healthy for them . It really doesnt take that much time to prepare. 

Are the golden pearls not necessary, then? I could just give them crushed flake? Or do recommend the golden pearls along with the flake? 



I am also continuing to feed them the new Life Spectrum Grow daily. It says it is 200-300 micron , so it is probably getting to be too small of a food for them now? This:



https://www.amazon.com/New-Life-Spe...ocphy=9032466&hvtargid=pla-569568581962&psc=1


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

I feed BBS throughout ..My breeding pairs get them ,my swordtails get them ??
They are a good and as you said easy food to offer ..I have not stopped hatching daily in over 3 years !
The NLS looks good IMO and 200-300 is not too small IMO ..
The rams really thrive on small foods through out their lives ..They never really eat big foods and 1mm is the largest I offer usually to adults ..
The flake should be fine if they eat it .I like the pellet type foods better as I feel they fill the fish up easier ..I don't feed any flakes to any of my fish ..
They mess up the tank once you go off only feeding what a fish can eat in minutes ..That is not how you grow fish .You feed as often as possible but most flakes mess the water up so much I gave up on them years ago .. The golden pearls are very nutritious so it comes down to if you are offering other good foods as to whether you need them or not .


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Okay, Ill continue to feed the BBS. 
Thank you for the recommendations


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Excellent video of Ram fry development:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I haven't updated this much because everyday is pretty much the same:
feed 4-5 very small feedings a day (1 feeding with new Life Spectrum fry growth, the others with BBS.) 
50% water change. 
Repeat. 

They are starting to become more defined, where before they looked kinda like an amorphous tadpole, you can start to make out eyes, mouth, etc... and color. 
There are more darks in here than I thought, possibly close to the 25% as would be expected with a dark/gold pair. How dark they will be as mature is the question. 
Some have died in last 5 days. There looks to be about 50 fry ? It looks like have lost about 20. These were probably the weaker individuals, which appears normal. 
I ordered some golden pearls to add to their diet from Brine Shrimp Direct as recommended by Tom. 

Anyways, here is a video, you can see me going in and out trying to get these little guys in focus. Its tough.

https://vimeo.com/387214166


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## SueD (Nov 20, 2010)

Great success so far and so cool to see that many. Can't wait to see them grow more and start to color up.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

SueD said:


> Great success so far and so cool to see that many. Can't wait to see them grow more and start to color up.


 Thanks, Sue!
There have been some losses; but, Im thinking these are some of the weakest, genetically weak fish. I saw a dark ram swimming by itself yesterday that was substantially smaller than the other fry, but he did feed when I put food in the tank. Its swimming seemed strong, appeared alert. They really respond to me when I come to the front of the tank--- danger! danger- big blob coming uo ahead, lol!
I think that with this smaller ram, this is a good example of a situation where, if he/she were separated from the group, would probably do much better. Its amazing how quickly the healthy fish grow. They are about 16-18 days old now ( I lost count) and Id say they have doubled in size. The colors are very distinct between the golds and darks now. But, as I said earlier, wont know how dark the darker ones will be until mature.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> I haven't updated this much because everyday is pretty much the same:
> feed 4-5 very small feedings a day (1 feeding with new Life Spectrum fry growth, the others with BBS.)
> 50% water change.
> Repeat.
> ...


Hi Discusluv,

25% would be the typical number to expect based upon the number of 'darks' that Dean Tweeddale here in Seattle gets from his spawns. I was just at his home and fish room today, along with the really small fry food and newly hatched bbs he also feeds the really the fry infusoria as soon as they become free-swimming.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Discusluv,
> 
> 25% would be the typical number to expect based upon the number of 'darks' that Dean Tweeddale here in Seattle gets from his spawns. I was just at his home and fish room today, along with the really small fry food and newly hatched bbs he also feeds the really the fry infusoria as soon as they become free-swimming.


I think your right. Now that they are older there are a lot more darks than I originally thought. 25% seems like what i have.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> I think you're right. Now that they are older there are a lot more darks than I originally thought. 25% seems like what i have.


This is fascinating. So what proportion of the remainder are gold? And is there intermediate phenotype that's in between gold & dark? And are the dark as vigorous as the others, or smaller & slower growing?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Desert Pupfish,

From what I saw yesterday, all of the remainder (75%) are 'Gold'. Assuming the 'gold gene' is dominate and the 'dark gene' is recessive then only 25% of the total (33% of the golds) are 'true gold' and 50% of the total (67% of the 'golds') have the dominate 'gold gene' and the recessive 'dark gene' however visually all the golds seem to look the same.. The 'darks' and 'golds' all seem to grow at the same rate.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> This is fascinating. So what proportion of the remainder are gold? And is there intermediate phenotype that's in between gold & dark? And are the dark as vigorous as the others, or smaller & slower growing?


Roy explains it better than I could.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Day 23. 

https://vimeo.com/389147723


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

1 of the female dark rams has her breeding tube down. I wish I had a tank set up to put her and a dark male in. She looks to be pairing up with another dark male, but its hard to be sure. 
Im still not absolutely sure which sex is which, but have a gut feeling. I was hoping I would get a spawn on a stone like last time so I could put eggs in dip and pour like Tom does and raise them up myself. Seems to be more control here considering that they sometimes kill the partner or eat the eggs. 

The gold that bred with the dark female ( now dead, remember?) that resulted in fry seems to be odd man out this time. Interesting. He seems more docile than the first go around. 
I have been feeding these guys brine shrimp every day and the Green Rasbora females are getting full with eggs! I can see another breeding opportunity opening up here, but how to get another tank without the hubby noticing! Now I see why it is recommended to prepare fish for breeding with live foods, it really works to generate egg production.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> 1 of the female dark rams has her breeding tube down. I wish I had a tank set up to put her and a dark male in. She looks to be pairing up with another dark male, but its hard to be sure.
> 
> Im still not absolutely sure which sex is which, but have a gut feeling. I was hoping I would get a spawn on a stone like last time so I could put eggs in dip and pour like Tom does and raise them up myself. Seems to be more control here considering that they sometimes kill the partner or eat the eggs.
> 
> ...




You may have to come up with something better than chicken pot pie!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

vvDO said:


> You may have to come up with something better than chicken pot pie!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Day 23.
> 
> https://vimeo.com/389147723


Are the hydra not a concern for the fry?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

mgeorges said:


> Are the hydra not a concern for the fry?


Not really, no. I find that worry to be overblown.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Not really, no. I find that worry to be overblown.


I figured as newly hatched and moving around, it might've been a concern. A little sting to something that itty bitty...I have zero experience successfully raising fry though haha. At their current size, I imagine the hydra pose zero threat. Do you ever see them snacking on the hydra?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

mgeorges said:


> I figured as newly hatched and moving around, it might've been a concern. A little sting to something that itty bitty...I have zero experience successfully raising fry though haha. At their current size, I imagine the hydra pose zero threat. Do you ever see them snacking on the hydra?


 Because fry are bigger now is why I dont worry.
I just noticed them in the tank about 5-6 days ago, before that I thought they were some kind of algae [ the hydra has been here in tank about 2 weeks] because I haven't had them in my tanks before. My large fish must make quick work of them. I havent had any deaths of fry since the hydra has been present.

That said, I am working on suctioning them out with python because dont want them in the tank. If that doesn't do trick, Tom recommended fenbendazole.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Yep, Fenbendazole does wonders for hydra and planaria, as well as some internal parasites as I'm sure you're aware! I've used it myself on a few occasions. 

I bought this - https://www.amazon.com/Merck-Safegu...2&sr=1-3-22d05c05-1231-4126-b7c4-3e7a9c0027d0


Since it's a liquid suspension, it's very easy to work with. I think dosage of this stuff is around .25 ml/10 gallons, but the guide I used I've got saved so I can share that with you. I've used it in shrimp and fish tanks without issue, though I did add back some nerites a little too soon after treatment and both died within 48 hours.

The problem with hydra is they regenerate, so if you're vacuuming and say smash one, each little piece can become a new hydra. If I see them in shrimp tanks, I go straight to medicating for that reason. Easier and sure fire.


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## dubels (Jun 14, 2012)

I have had issues with hydras with really small fry like those of CPDs. Working up a safe dose of fenbendazole is the way to go.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Always fun raising the little frys. Looks like they are growing nicely.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Discusluv,

Heading up to Dean's fishroom in about an hour. I'll try to get some pictures of his 'fry' (actually juvies now). He grows the 'golds' and 'darks' separately. I don't know if this is because of different growth rates or ??. Glad to hear your fry continue to do well.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*Discusluv*,
> 
> Heading up to Dean's fishroom in about an hour. I'll try to get some pictures of his 'fry' (actually juvies now). He grows the 'golds' and 'darks' separately. I don't know if this is because of different growth rates or ??. Glad to hear your fry continue to do well.


I will be separating them soon.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @*Discusluv*,
> 
> Heading up to Dean's fishroom in about an hour. I'll try to get some pictures of his 'fry' (actually juvies now). He grows the 'golds' and 'darks' separately. I don't know if this is because of different growth rates or ??. Glad to hear your fry continue to do well.


 Did you get pictures?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Discusluv,

Sorry, yes I did!









You can't really tell from this picture of half the tank however there are about 25 (+/- 5) young adult rams in the tank; I could tell sex on several of them.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

They are amazing! Has he developed enough to sell or still building his stock to get to that level?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Moved the ram fry to a 30 gallon- it was really looking cramped in the 10 gallon because these guys are growing so fast ( and there are about 60 of them) . But, at the same time, it was very stressful because I worried I would hurt them while netting them. They all seem fine- Ill need to keep a close eye for netting injuries and the like. 

Now, iIm going to move another pair, this time a dark male and dark female, to the 10 gallon. Excited to see if I can monitor breeding behaviors a little closer/see process. Not sure if I will let the parents raise fry-- Ill see how they do.


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

I'm really enjoying this thread. Tanks for keeping us updated!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> They are amazing! Has he developed enough to sell or still building his stock to get to that level?


Hi @Discusluv,

His stock came from the Toronto, Ontario area about a year ago. He purchased a dozen juvies. He lost all but three which he was able to breed twice before they died as well. The ones you see in the picture are the 'darks' from those first two spawns. They seem much darker than many of the pictures I have seen online. He and I were talking today about them because the males are 'sparring' and showing signs of wanting to spawn. He has two 30 gallon tanks set up and aging to which he will move and try to breed them next week. He as not sold any to date, I believe he is trying to build up a few successful spawning pairs prior to selling them.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

2nd spawn. This time both male and female are dark.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Wow. Very cool. Have you decided if you'll pull the eggs or not?


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> 2nd spawn. This time both male and female are dark.




Nice... that’s a lot of eggs! Are you going to try and raise them yourself or let them raise the fry?


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

schooldazed said:


> Wow. Very cool. Have you decided if you'll pull the eggs or not?




Hey... get out of my head... hahaha


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

When spawn gets to wiggler stage will pull male. Right now he keeps the eggs aerated and prevents fungus. 

As time goes on and I learn more about these fish I will allow the male and female to stick with spawn and fry. But, if you remember last time, the male killed the female after spawning. That was devastating.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> When spawn gets to wiggler stage will pull male. Right now he keeps the eggs aerated and prevents fungus.
> 
> 
> 
> As time goes on and I learn more about these fish I will allow the male and female to stick with spawn and fry. But, if you remember last time, the male killed the female after spawning. That was devastating.




Did you move the female already?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

vvDO said:


> Did you move the female already?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, pulled the female a few hours after noticing the spawn this morning, just to make sure they were done laying/fertilizing.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Congratulations! I've got my popcorn ready.....


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Good luck with this batch. It is quite fun to follow along on this!


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I somehow missed this yesterday, congratulations! It will be interesting to see the percentage of dark babies this batch compared to the last one.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

So far so good. The male is still fanning the eggs and ate a bit of baby brine shrimp this morning. I added a little methylene blue to the water as well because a bit more fungus spread to other eggs. But, 75 % of eggs viable. 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

These fry are further along than I thought, they are already in wiggler stage this evening. I think they got to this stage on day 3 from looking at my notes from last spawn. 
I am debating on leaving the male for the first 2 weeks. I guess ill take it one day at a time and watch him closely. I would just hate to loose these fry being that they are from 2 darks.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The fry from first spawn are about 6 weeks old now. They are now in my 30 gallon wild-neo/babaulti tank. Will stay in here as long as it takes to reach the size of an adult neo- maybe 2-3 more weeks? 
Then, will put them by themselves in my other 30 gallon where the adult rams are hanging out. The adults will then go in with the discus in the 60 gallon until they are needed for breeding. 

Here is a quick video- sorry so out of focus-- im just not very good at it...
https://vimeo.com/392548741


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Am really enjoying following this project. Thanks for updating. Great video. Especially liked seeing the full tank in *action*. Looks like more than a few dark ones. And they all look great. The darks don't look too noticeably different than the golds size wise. Must be hearty and competing well for food. Notice any differences between the two colors? Can you tell if any may be darker than any of the other dark rams?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

*The Breeding Project: Dark Rams*

I do not notice any size differences between the two- actually. The darks hold there own against the golds. I do have one dark that looks like it is missing a dorsal fin. It is much smaller, but feeds vigorously. I will not put it with the others or sell it ( of course), but may put it in my 180 to live out its life. Culling would probably be the professional thing to do - but I am not a professional . 

What I do notice is the vigor that f the eggs. This batch with 2 darks appears much less viable. A lot of eggs were laid, but 50% have gathered fungus. I think because I didn’t notice this spawn until at least 2 days later because tonight the wrigglers are starting to travel. Not far, but far enough the male is chasing them down and trying to contain them in the saucer. It’s comical- he is so frustrated. 

I started a vinegar eel culture about 2 1/2 weeks ago- I may try feeding this as a first food along with baby brine shrimp. I just have no idea how to do it so will need to read up on it. 


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

I am happy to see your updates.

Cheers


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Streetwise said:


> I am happy to see your updates.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers




Thank you  


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> I started a vinegar eel culture about 2 1/2 weeks ago- I may try feeding this as a first food along with baby brine shrimp. I just have no idea how to do it so will need to read up on it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



Super easy... I would pour out some of the culture into a long necked bottle (beer bottle worked well). Fill to the bottom of the neck leaving some space at the top. Then I would use filter floss with a hooked wire and shove the filter floss into the lower half of the neck to the level of the water/culture in a way that I can use the hooked wire to reclaim the filter floss when done. You will want to leave some room in the top half of the neck so you can pour some clean tank water on top. The vinegar eels will travel through the floss into the clean water on top. Then I used a syringe to empty the top and feed directly to the fish. If there were still any eels in the bottle, I would refill the top with clean water. Then return the vinegar water to your culture bottle.




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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

vvDO said:


> Super easy... I would pour out some of the culture into a long necked bottle (beer bottle worked well). Fill to the bottom of the neck leaving some space at the top. Then I would use filter floss with a hooked wire and shove the filter floss into the lower half of the neck to the level of the water/culture in a way that I can use the hooked wire to reclaim the filter floss when done. You will want to leave some room in the top half of the neck so you can pour some clean tank water on top. The vinegar eels will travel through the floss into the clean water on top. Then I used a syringe to empty the top and feed directly to the fish. If there were still any eels in the bottle, I would refill the top with clean water. Then return the vinegar water to your culture bottle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Excellent, thank you my friend!! I think I’ll give this a shot! 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Well, I dont know. I saw movement of the wigglers in and around saucer this morning-- but...
This afternoon I couldn't find them. I dont know if he ate them or moved them. 
And, like a mother that doesn't know which child was naughty so all are punished, I took him out and put him in the 30 with the other rams. 
He was very unhappy at my decision and chased his tank-mates for over an hour. 

Im going to act like the little ones are still in here-- just hiding from me. 
I took the water level down in fry tank to around 2.5 gallons.
Lowered the flow.
Now wait.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> And, like a mother that doesn't know which child was naughty so all are punished, I took him out and put him in the 30 with the other rams.


I hope you put him in the time out corner and told him "this is why we just can't have nice things...."


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> I hope you put him in the time out corner and told him "this is why we just can't have nice things...."


lol-- perfect! :laugh2:


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Ugh. I can't believe he waited until this long to murder. Hoping they got moved somewhere and will make an appearance.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Im not sure he did murder them-- but, he may have. This tank has a lot of moss, wood, rock, some pottery, so they may be in there somewhere.
Im still acting as if they are. 
But, this spawn was so different from the last one in that there were loads of eggs, but they fungused over very quickly from the time I noticed them. Im wondering if this is typical of the dark ram eggs, due to some other factor in my tap ( higher TDS?), or because I didnt get the MB in water as quickly as I did the last time. My tap TDS ranges between 85-125 in a given year and I noticed this week that it had gone up slightly from 115-125. This seems insignificant, but with fragile fry this may have had a factor. The last time I had the successful spawn, the TDS was around 100 TDS. I may need to cut in some R/O water to ensure numbers align with what the eggs require to hatch successfully. 
One good thing is that I know I have a fertile pair. I just need to better understand and control all these factors that make or break a successful spawning. 
Which includes a murderous male.


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## coralbandit still (Dec 22, 2019)

If he ate the fry what was the point of taking him out ???
Although possibly too late I would put him back .
I would not have removed him .They notoriously move wigglers .
Especially from a contaminated site to a clean one .
Natural instinct has them move them to keep them from being found by predators in the wild ..
I think you are going to see fry still eitherway ..
But you got to let them do what they do ...


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

coralbandit still said:


> If he ate the fry what was the point of taking him out ???
> 
> Although possibly too late I would put him back .
> 
> ...




There is no fry - he ate them. 


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## P.Isley (Feb 18, 2020)

Oh booo!!! I’m so sorry!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

P.Isley said:


> Oh booo!!! I’m so sorry!


Thank you. I am a bit gutted. But, the pair are back in tank so try, try again.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> Thank you. I am a bit gutted. But, the pair are back in tank so try, try again.


Hi Discusluv,

Certainly give it another try. If you have bred cichlids before you know that sometimes it takes two or three spawns for a pair to become comfortable with each other and not get spooked.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Your hobby friends are here, cheering for you and your tanks.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Discusluv,
> 
> Certainly give it another try. If you have bred cichlids before you know that sometimes it takes two or three spawns for a pair to become comfortable with each other and not get spooked.


Thank you. Yeah, I know, need to remember this.

Bump:


Streetwise said:


> Your hobby friends are here, cheering for you and your tanks.


Yes, and it makes me feel so much better. Thank you.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

These babies are growing leaps and bounds! 



https://vimeo.com/393607113


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Some healthy looking fry .... and OTOs also. Funny once they get past a certain point it seems like they all of a sudden get bigger every time ya see em.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Quint said:


> Some healthy looking fry .... and OTOs also. Funny once they get past a certain point it seems like they all of a sudden get bigger every time ya see em.


They really amaze me at how much they have grown. :smile2:


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Discusluv,

They sure are growing! 

Dean took two pairs of the 'juvies' I was feeding a little over a week ago and set each pair up in their own 20 gallon. One pair has already spawned. Since this was their first spawn he removed the eggs and now he has 'wigglers' that should be free-swimming in another 48 hours or so.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Waiting, waiting, waiting. The rams in the 10 gallon seem to like one another but no breeding behaviors as yet. 
Ive been keeping the TDS right around 100. Feeding BBS. 
I might try a cooler water change ( 3-4 degrees) and see if that may bring on spawning activity with this dark pair.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The babies!-- look at these round , red tummies. Lots of BBS, Golden pearls, and crushed NLS flake. Around 1:00 minute mark you will see that strange Ram that looks like it doesn't have a dorsal fin. It is very healthy, but looks so much different than the other fish. 


https://vimeo.com/397108132


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

That one odd Ram is actually a baby rainbow ........ ok maybe not but it is definitely a odd one lol.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Quint said:


> That one odd Ram is actually a baby rainbow ........ ok maybe not but it is definitely a odd one lol.




I thought the same, haha!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

It does look like a rainbow! Its very strange. I am going to keep it- but, away from the other Rams when it matures.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I really thought y'all were joking. The fish at 57 seconds can't be a ram! Tell me that my eyes aren't *that* bad!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I really thought y'all were joking. The fish at 57 seconds can't be a ram! Tell me that my eyes aren't *that* bad!


What could it be? The only other fish that were in the tank when the rams spawned were microdevario kubotai. It couldn t be that could it?


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Does not appear to be a kubotai, but does appear to be a rainbow. @Greggz, anyone else?


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

I'm sure you've already thought of this, but have you recently purchased the moss or moved it from another tank? 

Such an odd looking little fish that seems to have an upturned mouth designed for surface feeding rather than a ram's mouth! Very difficult to tell from just a video though.

It's very cute either way, glad you'll be keeping it!


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> What could it be? The only other fish that were in the tank when the rams spawned were microdevario kubotai. It couldn t be that could it?




About a year ago, I gave an SFBAAPS member a bunch of plants. He only put my plants in a new tank he was setting up and nothing else. About a week later he noticed a small fry in his tank. He was able to grow it out and it turned out to be a bosemani. He eventually gave me the fish as his tank was a nano tank. Their eggs can survive on plants and it probably came in on some plants you received. I believe you can even just buy eggs and hatch them in a tank.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Thelongsnail said:


> I'm sure you've already thought of this, but have you recently purchased the moss or moved it from another tank?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No, I didn’t think of that. It could be a neon rainbow- the praecox! 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

vvDO said:


> About a year ago, I gave an SFBAAPS member a bunch of plants. He only put my plants in a new tank he was setting up and nothing else. About a week later he noticed a small fry in his tank. He was able to grow it out and it turned out to be a bosemani. He eventually gave me the fish as his tank was a nano tank. Their eggs can survive on plants and it probably came in on some plants you received. I believe you can even just buy eggs and hatch them in a tank.




Oh my goodness! That could have been it. How exciting if that’s the case. I really do love my little mystery fish! 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Does not appear to be a kubotai, but does appear to be a rainbow. @Greggz, anyone else?




I guess it wouldn’t be a tetra because it’s missing a dorsal? 


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Edit: You know what--- I just remembered that when I set up the 10 gallon for hatching the Ram eggs I placed some narrow leaf java fern in there from the 180. The praecox are in the 180. That must have been where this fish came from. CRAZY! Now I want to add more of this fern into this tanks to see if ill get some more-lol!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Ive been trying all types of tricks in attempt to get these2 dark rams to spawn again. The one that appears to be working is that I added an Indian Almond Leaf to the aquarium after a large water change. The females breeding tube has come down after 24 hours and they are cleaning a saucer. 

Maybe this time Ill get it right.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

We got eggs! 
The male and female are not really working well together. The male keeps chasing off the female, so I may take her out today. I dont want him to hurt or kill her.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Surprisingly the male and female settled down and are taking turns tending to the spawn. The male was chasing her off at first, but is now tolerating her. Not sure how long I will keep her in here, maybe just until I see wigglers. But, I am going to try keeping the male in for 2 weeks, if not more. 

What is like night and day with this spawn is that there is very little fungus on eggs. Almost none so far. Not sure if this is due to a more viable group of eggs, the presence of the IAL, or some other unknown factor. 

I will do a small water change today and keep my fingers crossed.


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## mjwgh2 (Oct 8, 2019)

The mystery fish fry is almost certainly Melanotaenia praecox - the dwarf neon rainbow fish. It probably arrived as an egg on aquatic plants. They're tiny surface dwellers and easily overlooked until they get a bit of size.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I held out and didnt take out the male or female with last spawn. Today turned on light to see this: 

https://vimeo.com/400344621



A swarm!


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

WOAH! No joke, that is a swarm!

Very nice!


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

So very cool! Have watched the video three times and will most likely watch it again tonight before bed. Glad you did not have to pull momma ram. So fascinating to watch cichlids parent raising.


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## Sam the Slayer (Dec 18, 2019)

*The Breeding Project: Dark Rams*

Wow those Rams are amazing! Congrats

Will you be distributing the juveniles at some point? 

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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> So very cool! Have watched the video three times and will most likely watch it again tonight before bed. Glad you did not have to pull momma ram. So fascinating to watch cichlids parent raising.


 The parents are still working nice with one another this morning. I am chewing my nails leaving them both in. Shortly after the first spawn with a golden ram and a dark female the male killed the female. That was devastating. I left the male in for a couple more days and then took him out and raised the fry myself. The next spawn- by another dark M/F pair in another tank was quickly eaten by parents. But, there were other fish in tank, so that explains why.


It took another month to get another spawn with this dark M/F pair. That took awhile. Thats why Im so nervous. I know I could raise these guys on my own- b ut, that also denies the fish and me the benefit of natural behaviors-- them displaying them and me watching them.

Bump:


Sam the Slayer said:


> Wow those Rams are amazing! Congrats
> 
> Will you be distributing the juveniles at some point?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I imagine I will need to at some point. My local aquarium society auction will only provide the opportunity to sell a certain amount. But, first, I will need to learn how to ship these fish safely.


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## Sam the Slayer (Dec 18, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> The parents are still working nice with one another this morning. I am chewing my nails leaving them both in. Shortly after the first spawn with a golden ram and a dark female the male killed the female. That was devastating. I left the male in for a couple more days and then took him out and raised the fry myself. The next spawn- by another dark M/F pair in another tank was quickly eaten by parents. But, there were other fish in tank, so that explains why.
> 
> 
> It took another month to get another spawn with this dark M/F pair. That took awhile. Thats why Im so nervous. I know I could raise these guys on my own- b ut, that also denies the fish and me the benefit of natural behaviors-- them displaying them and me watching them.
> ...



Sounds good! If you get the shipping where you want it I’ll take 2 or more off of you!!! How’s aggression with the blacks rams? I had read that both the black angels and rams are more aggressive. 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Here is a video showing the male/female working together to keep the fry corralled to a certain space. They chase the strays down, pop them in their mouths, and spit them out with their siblings. It is something to see. Also, in video, you can see them aggressively flare at me for getting to close to the tank. 

https://vimeo.com/400809533


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Very nice! Can Dark Rams live with Yoyo Loaches, and a Rainbow Shark? They look like they could handle it.


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

very nice. thank you for sharing the video.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Sam the Slayer said:


> Sounds good! If you get the shipping where you want it I’ll take 2 or more off of you!!! How’s aggression with the blacks rams? I had read that both the black angels and rams are more aggressive.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would say that while breeding the dark rams can be more aggressive than the German Blue Ram. The male killed the female after spawning-- that is pretty aggressive.

Bump:


Streetwise said:


> Very nice! Can Dark Rams live with Yoyo Loaches, and a Rainbow Shark? They look like they could handle it.


They are not temperature compatible. These Rams need very warm water- 82-86 degrees. Both Yoyo loaches and the Red shark require temps below 78 degrees.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Day 8

The male/ female are still in tank doing an excellent job taking care of the fry. It looks like there are about 75-100 fry and an even distribution of dark to gold. 

So far, Ive decided to keep them both in for 6 more days and then raise them on my own. But, if I notice the pair starting to get irritated with one another Ill pull the female sooner. 
Also, I think a good indicator that they still are protecting the fry is the flaring they do at me when I get close to the tank. If they stop doing this it may indicate they are done with parenting.

It looks like the hydra is beginning to come back again. I guess that should be expected when you are feeding 5 x a day. Last time i manually got rid of them by scrapping them off sides when water level was down. It worked really good. I did order and get the flubendazole-- if the hydra cannot be controlled manually I will use it.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Still so very excited for you. Interesting the 50/50 mix. If you're trying to get the blacks to breed true, sounds like it will take a bit of backcrossing. Don't know what a typical time between spawns is for your rams. Have heard (though not experienced) SA cichlids "making room" for their next spawn. May want to add that as another factor in determining length of parent raising. Must be great fun watching these beauties. It's certainly great fun following along.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> Still so very excited for you. Interesting the 50/50 mix. If you're trying to get the blacks to breed true, sounds like it will take a bit of backcrossing. Don't know what a typical time between spawns is for your rams. Have heard (though not experienced) SA cichlids "making room" for their next spawn. May want to add that as another factor in determining length of parent raising. Must be great fun watching these beauties. It's certainly great fun following along.


 Thank you  These fish have been so fun. They have also inspired me to finally try breeding my discus. I have 3 wild juvenile discus growing out right now-- I am hoping to get a pair from them. But, if they end up being all males or females, I have 2 F1 Alenquer discus that I can breed them with. Im told that discus are easier than these rams to breed, so Im really looking forward to trying. Ive raised discus for 18 years and, while I have had many spawns throughout the years from them, its about time I finally get some fry!



As far as the Rams, because Ive only had them for a few months and 3 spawns, its hard to tell exactly what the timeline is for spawning. But, it looks like 1 x monthly-- with my crude calculations. 



Im not sure what it would take to get 75% of darks to golds. Is 100% darks possible?


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> Thank you  These fish have been so fun. They have also inspired me to finally try breeding my discus. I have 3 wild juvenile discus growing out right now-- I am hoping to get a pair from them. But, if they end up being all males or females, I have 2 F1 Alenquer discus that I can breed them with. Im told that discus are easier than these rams to breed, so Im really looking forward to trying. Ive raised discus for 18 years and, while I have had many spawns throughout the years from them, its about time I finally get some fry!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Awesome!


Psst... Breed the angels!!  


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

vvDO said:


> Psst... Breed the angels!!



ooh, ooh, OOh. Love that idea. F1 altums. I'm in.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

vvDO said:


> Awesome!
> 
> 
> Psst... Breed the angels!!
> ...


 I only have 2 left of the wild altums. Two died of something I am at a complete mystery to understand why. NO symptoms, eating fine. round body, clear eyes. But, both died shortly after water changes. I am thinking that I either had some drastic change in chemistry in my tap or they are very sensitive to micro-bubbles. Since this happened i have started testing tap at least 1 x monthly for PH, KH, GH, TDS and put water back into tank with python very slowely. These fish are the most challenging fish Ive ever kept-- for sure. 

I was just looking at Wet Spots list today and they have a Wild Altum from The Vichada territory of the Orinoco. Which led me to this article -- which was fabulous.
http://theangelfishsociety.org/newsletters/2009_Aug_v23.pdf


But, yes!! I hear you, I think Im going to sneak a few of these in when my husbands not looking


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Your secret would be safe with me. Wouldn't say a word.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

You will not believe what just happened---

Passed by the discus tank and my M Alenquer and -- now I know-- female Heckel are laying eggs!! 
Seriously? 
I quickly took out all the other discus and rams and waiting for them to quit laying and will get all other fish out. 
The, Ill take another picture. I am over the moon


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Congrats. Looking forward to pics. But be careful. Must be something in the water...


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Day 12-- The Ram fry from latest batch are no longer sticking tight to mom and dad but roaming all over the tank independently. Think this is a good sign that they are able to find food pretty much on their own. I plan on taking both the male and female out later this afternoon.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> You will not believe what just happened---
> 
> Passed by the discus tank and my M Alenquer and -- now I know-- female Heckel are laying eggs!!


Nice!!!! That's awesome news!


schooldazed said:


> Congrats. Looking forward to pics. But be careful. Must be something in the water...


Weird, it's happening here too. I think it's the quarantine. :wink2:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Nice!!!! That's awesome news!
> 
> 
> Weird, it's happening here too. I think it's the quarantine. :wink2:


 This is actually older news-- the spawn wasnt viable. 
Pretty common to discus first time around. They will learn as they go how to get it right. 

But, not discouraged because they are already showing signs of spawning again.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Dang, so much can change in 4 days. Well, I'd rather have a proven pair of discus than one batch of fry any day.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I moved the male and female Ram from the fry tank ( the newest batch) a few days ago and moved them in with the older batch of fry. They chased these fry around for a day kind of ruthlessly; but, didnt hurt them. They are all calmed down now. 

Took a quick video while changing water. The little white articles floating in water is Boyd's Vitachem. Should have waited until after the video to put in. 

Here ya go  :

https://vimeo.com/403544272


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

Exciting news all round and gorgeous juveniles! Would absolutely be requesting to purchase a pair of the golds if I was stateside once you're ready to distribute.

Will you be starting another thread for the discus?

And I'm not sure if you're one for naming fish (I'm not usually) but that praecox needs a ram-based name! Something along the lines of Geoffrey the microgeophagus, but much better  Rezzie the Ramirezi?? haha


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Thelongsnail said:


> Exciting news all round and gorgeous juveniles! Would absolutely be requesting to purchase a pair of the golds if I was stateside once you're ready to distribute.
> 
> Will you be starting another thread for the discus?
> 
> And I'm not sure if you're one for naming fish (I'm not usually) but that praecox needs a ram-based name! Something along the lines of Geoffrey the microgeophagus, but much better  Rezzie the Ramirezi?? haha


 I would send you some Golds- for sure! 



I started another thread for the discus here. 

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1305969-breeding-project-discus.html


I absolutely love Geoffrey. Its perfect, That is his name. :laugh2:


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

love the journal! enjoyed reading about the journey to get them to breed and raising the fry


I am also a big advocate of using the BBS dish hatchery for smaller batches. They're efficient and soooo easy to use compared to the bottle and bubbler


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

monkeyruler90 said:


> love the journal! enjoyed reading about the journey to get them to breed and raising the fry
> 
> 
> I am also a big advocate of using the BBS dish hatchery for smaller batches. They're efficient and soooo easy to use compared to the bottle and bubbler


I agree-- these hatcheries are so convenient. Love them.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Weird, it's happening here too. I think it's the quarantine. :wink2:


Love must be in the air...

My black velvet angel pair spawned a couple of days ago on a sword leaf. Was too busy with Zoom calls to get a pic before lights out that evening, and the eggs were gone the next morning. Not surprising since I still have 9 angels crammed in that 55 since I decided to get some more otos & a golden SAE for the 75, so having to wait for those to quarantine.

Congrats @Discusluv!


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

It's amazing the small percentage of them that are black? Is that an indication of the general weakness of the black fry compared to the gold fry... or that the black pair are carrying gold genes are just throwing a greater number of gold fry in general?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The older fry are the progeny of a gold male Ram and a dark female ram. There is about 15 dark fry and 25-30 gold. I think this is pretty standard for a spawn between a gold and dark ram. 

My latest spawn is 50/50 to 60/40 dark. A lot of dark because progeny is dark female and dark male. 


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

Wow, those are good ratios! I need to check my eyes when looking at your photos. Thanks for sharing your progress!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The fry are 24 days old today. 
I was having some difficulty keeping the tank adequately clean with all the branches and moss in here so took out-- as a trial-- to see how fry do. I also added a good deal of duckweed from another tank to top of water to give shade from light. They dont at all like the light too bright. 
Had some die -off over the last 3 days- maybe 10 fry? I think that the food was accumulating under plants and I wasnt cleaning well enough. There is still a lot of fry in here! Way more than my first spawn. 
Something interesting-- I have noticed that, for the most part, the golds stay higher up in the waterline as a group and the darks seem to congregate more right above the bottom of the tank. What that means I dont know--

https://vimeo.com/406987749


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Noticed over the past couple days that there is quite a bit of a size discrepancy between the gold and the dark fry. 
I guess this can be attributed to the golds being heartier than the darks. 
Decided to separate the golds from the darks so that the dark rams would only have to compete for food among themselves. Also, it will be easier to keep this tank clean.
Took out about 50 golds and have approximately 60 darks left. This spawn was huge. Ive lost several fish over the last few weeks ( mostly darks). Im not sure how many- but at least 20.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

interesting on the size difference between the colors. but good idea on separating them, hopefully the darks will have have a better chance now


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I recently rejoined Facebook so that I could learn more about these dark rams. Really, besides coralbandit, I have little access to others information on these fish. They are still so rarely bred-- and documented. Anyways, on the forum Im on, Marco ( South African breeder of the "Dark Knight" Ram), gave a very thorough genetic description of the discrepancies between the strain he has developed, and the original form that hails from Israel ( which is what I have via coralbandit). 

Here is Marco Du Toit's post:

_"... these fish would invariably all originate from the original Dark mutation in Israel. No matter which route it went by to end up in your tanks.

The misunderstanding which exist with regards to these fish is down to confusing names etc etc.
Its all unnescessary, but its Rams afterall, and it took nearly 50 years just to sort their scientific name out, so lets be patient with common names also.

I will try and explain this in a way that makes it easy to understand.

Lets imagine a 2 seater sports car for a moment
The driver is the dominant gene, and the shotgun seat is the 2nd gene.

The Dark mutation occured in the Wild form, also called Blue Ram, or again, mistakenly "German Blue Ram"
A Dark Ram therefore is simply a ram which carries only 1 Dark gene, and 1 Blue Ram gene.
Now, the dark gene is what is called an "incomplete dominant" gene.
Simply put, its in the drivers seat, but it only wants to drive half the way.
So in combination with the wild form, ALL spawns from this breeding results in a near perfect 50/50 split. Half will be Dark, and other half will be normal wild form.

Now, when you take one of those Darks and you breed it to a Golden Ram, which is a recessive gene, the gene expression changes in the 1st offspring from such a cross
Suddenly, because the Dark gene is "incomplete dominant", in combination with the recessive Golden gene it now dominates completely. It sits in the driver seat and drives all the way. So from such a cross, the offspring are all dark, and because its on a lighter base (golden induced) they appear to be darker than the Dark parent.

So, when these fish are bred to each other the same thing can not happen. In the sports car you still have a Golden gene riding shotgun, and so now this gene will end up in both seats in some offspring, and in some only in the passenger seat, and in some not in either of the 2 seats.
So you end uo with Golden fry, and Dark fry.
Some of these dark fry have on their seats the Dark gene in driver seat, and golden riding shotgun (25%), and others have Dark on driving seat and Wild form riding shotgun.
It will be impossible to tell them apart visually though

When the Darks with the gene combo are bred to each other the same outcome is repeated.
When 2 Darks with no golden in shotgun seat are bred to each other, you get a 50/50 split again of Dark and Wild form

This is about the best, and shortest way I can come up with exolaining this. Sorry for the long winded post"
1

Like
· Reply · 44m · Edited_

In a further post he states: 

_"The line I developed and which I came to call "Dark knights" were bred from this exact line from Israel.
I bred these to my own wild form Blue Ram line over a period of approx 18 months
I managed to isolate singular fish which appeared in some spawns which were totally black.
I eventually had a few males and females which I bred to each other and these fish now had dark genes in both the driver seat, as well as shotgun seat - and so all offspring from these fish are Dark knight. When I say all, I mean 100% - just to be clear.

Subsequent breeding resulted in a Dark Electric blue line, which has Dark gene in driver seat and Electric blue riding shotgun.
These fish again do not breed true, and never will. Their offspring are 50% Electric blue and 50% Dark Electric Blue

I used a Dark knight to then develop the Blue Knight
Blue knights are again, a totally stable line which breeds 100%true to form
In simple terms, this can be crudely explained by saying that we now see 2 of the expressed gene cars. Car 1 has Dark gene on both seats, and car 2 has electric blue on both seats
Both these cars are visible to the eye and so you see a black fish with blue scales.
Please excuse the crude explanation but its the best I can do now

Blue Knights can only be developed using a Dark knight.
If Dark gene fish are used it can not be achieved.

I hope this is an explanation of these fish that clarifies confusion

Like
· Reply · 12m · Edited_


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

That is a very interesting read. Am still digesting/interpreting. From my initial takeaway, cannot tell if he is saying the dark and gold mutations are alleles (genes that occur at the same locus of either chromosome). This statement kinda supports that theory:


> Now, when you take one of those Darks and you breed it to a Golden Ram, which is a recessive gene, the gene expression changes in the 1st offspring from such a cross
> Suddenly, because the Dark gene is "incomplete dominant", in combination with the recessive Golden gene it now dominates completely. It sits in the driver seat and drives all the way. So from such a cross, the offspring are all dark, and because its on a lighter base (golden induced) they appear to be darker than the Dark parent.


If one parent has one dark and one wild gene at that particular locus and the other parent has two gold genes at that same locus, the resulting offspring should be half dark and gold and half wild and gold. And since the gold gene is recessive, they would express as half of them dark(er) and half of them wild. This part also mostly supports that theory:


> So, when these fish are bred to each other the same thing can not happen. In the sports car you still have a Golden gene riding shotgun, and so now this gene will end up in both seats in some offspring, and in some only in the passenger seat, and in some not in either of the 2 seats.
> So you end uo with Golden fry, and Dark fry.


(dark,gold) x (dark,gold) ==> (dark,dark)25%, (dark,gold or gold,dark)50% and (gold,gold)25%. And of that brood, 75% would appear as dark and 25% as gold - kinda like what you are seeing? It's this next bit that throws me off:


> and others have Dark on driving seat and Wild form riding shotgun.


For the wild gene to be reintroduced at this point would point to the gold and dark gene occurring at different loci and not being alleles. Like I said, am still chewing on all this. Still suspect more is going on than one or two genes at one or two loci acting independently to create the various combinations we see as the gold and black traits. Find this all very interesting. What a great journey you are on.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> That is a very interesting read. Am still digesting/interpreting. From my initial takeaway, cannot tell if he is saying the dark and gold mutations are alleles (genes that occur at the same locus of either chromosome). This statement kinda supports that theory:If one parent has one dark and one wild gene at that particular locus and the other parent has two gold genes at that same locus, the resulting offspring should be half dark and gold and half wild and gold. And since the gold gene is recessive, they would express as half of them dark(er) and half of them wild. This part also mostly supports that theorydark,gold) x (dark,gold) ==> (dark,dark)25%, (dark,gold or gold,dark)50% and (gold,gold)25%. And of that brood, 75% would appear as dark and 25% as gold - kinda like what you are seeing? It's this next bit that throws me off:For the wild gene to be reintroduced at this point would point to the gold and dark gene occurring at different loci and not being alleles. Like I said, am still chewing on all this. Still suspect more is going on than one or two genes at one or two loci acting independently to create the various combinations we see as the gold and black traits. Find this all very interesting. What a great journey you are on.


 You have chewed on it and digested it far quicker than me 


Its so complicated.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Day 46:

https://vimeo.com/414989618


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

The fry look great and healthy! Their little bellies


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Good stuff Discusluv! I cannot believe I missed this thread. Subscribed now...

Gary


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

andrewss said:


> The fry look great and healthy! Their little bellies


I know, those round bellies full of brine shrimp. :laugh2:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

These guys are just at about the 4 month old mark. 
In the next couple days plan to take all the dark's out and take a close look at them. From there will pull out the darkest ones for breeding and decide which others will sell. 

There all doing real well, although I do notice a few that are much smaller than the others. these may just be females, Ill have to see if i can tell between them when separate them. 

Thanks for looking! 

https://vimeo.com/419175791


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Awesome stuff!

Gary


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> These guys are just at about the 4 month old mark.
> In the next couple days plan to take all the dark's out and take a close look at them. From there will pull out the darkest ones for breeding and decide which others will sell.
> 
> There all doing real well, although I do notice a few that are much smaller than the others. these may just be females, Ill have to see if i can tell between them when separate them.
> ...



Watched the video again and noticed the rainbow’s still in there, probably hogging all the food!


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Should be interesting trying to catch a Rainbow amongst all those Fry... a small job in itself.

Gary


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

vvDO said:


> Watched the video again and noticed the rainbow’s still in there, probably hogging all the food!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


:laugh2: It is amazing how quickly that little guy can chomp down food. I should put him in the big tank- but, I have nightmares of one of the big fish swallowing him/her in one gulp. I really would cry. Im very attached to my little mystery fish. 

It probably thinks its a Ram by now anyways-- may be so depressed when separated from its kin. :smile2:

Bump:


Crazygar said:


> Should be interesting trying to catch a Rainbow amongst all those Fry... a small job in itself.
> 
> Gary


Right? ~LOL!


I had a hard time getting him out of the 10 into the 30 gallon. I will need to take everything out of this tank to put it in my 180 gallon. Once there- forget it. :laugh2:


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Very fun to watch the video and witness the growth of the fry. This is the earlier brood from a gold and a dark, right? Looks like I'm seeing a lighter gold and dark gold in the fry. Are the dark fry similar - two different shades of dark? Am also curious as to the numbers of each color or percentage in attempting to understand the genetics but understand if that doesn't excite you. And perhaps what I find most interesting of all is that a fish called a ram can sound like a cat. They look great! Cheers


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> Very fun to watch the video and witness the growth of the fry. This is the earlier brood from a gold and a dark, right? Looks like I'm seeing a lighter gold and dark gold in the fry. Are the dark fry similar - two different shades of dark? Am also curious as to the numbers of each color or percentage in attempting to understand the genetics but understand if that doesn't excite you. And perhaps what I find most interesting of all is that a fish called a ram can sound like a cat. They look great! Cheers





Lol! I know! That pesky cat was just not cooperating and being quiet. 
This is the earlier brood from the gold male/female dark. Looks to be about 12-15 darks and 40 golds. Do you see shades of darker and lighter gold in gold rams? Maybe the bigger ones have more deep coloration than the smaller ones ( less developed). 

Ive been planning on taking the darks out and looking at their colors more closely. But, keep saying "tomorrow".


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Okay, finally got these dark Rams separated so could take a good look at them. Was planning on just taking pictures but photos really dont capture how nice these are. So, took videos. I also took out some of the golds ( not all of them!) to look at them more closely as well. 
Looks like I have 15 total dark Rams. I am going to keep 5 for my breeding and sell the rest. It looks (to my yet untrained eye) to be 4 females and 6 males. 
They have not reached their full intensity of color in body and fins. 

Here is a video of dark ram fry (4 mo.old) from gold male and dark female: 

https://vimeo.com/421323900

Mom and dad. This was before the spawn was transferred to a breeding tank. The next morning when woke up the Gold male had killed the female. He is now banished to my 180 to live out his life in fish joy. 

https://vimeo.com/384089705

Here are the gold Ram fry from this same Gold male and dark female:
https://vimeo.com/421329084

Here is the dark male/female pair that have fry that are about 1.5 months old. There are appx. 45 darks in this group. 
https://vimeo.com/421329943


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## HerpsAndHerbs (Apr 28, 2020)

What a fun thread! Love your stuff and I will be watching closely


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

HerpsAndHerbs said:


> What a fun thread! Love your stuff and I will be watching closely


Thank You!


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Beautiful fish. Thanks for the videos. Really spectacular. You've done a bang up job with them.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> Beautiful fish. Thanks for the videos. Really spectacular. You've done a bang up job with them.


Thank you so much. 
It really has been such a great experience watching these guys develop. Kinda changes my focus on why I keep fish as well. I keep looking at my other fish for breeding opportunities.


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## forksnbolts (Jan 8, 2020)

Great job! Excited to see these little guys grow up.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Looking into getting a group of Electric Blue Rams or German Blue Rams to add to my breeding project. 
Not sure which one yet.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Always a treat to see progress. Those are some seriously nice fish!

Gary


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Crazygar said:


> Always a treat to see progress. Those are some seriously nice fish!
> 
> Gary


Thanks, Gary. Has been a lot of fun!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Its official! 6 electric blue rams coming for breeding. 

Here is a quick video ( not my own!) of the EBR that shows how beautiful this variety gets


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Musical chairs around here: 

Moved the 4.5 old dark/gold ram fry from the 30 gallon to the 60 gallon with my discus pair to give the fry more room to grow. The discus didn't mind in the least and the fry seem energized by a change of scenery- lol! Also, will be easier to get fry out of this tank when sell them because no more wood/rock for them to hide behind. 

Soon as the EBR/GBR come, I will put this group in the 30 gallon took the 4.5 mo. fry from. 

Then, will put the 1.5 month dark fry that are in my 10 gallon into my other 30 gallon and put a EBR/GBR pair in 10 gallon to breed. 

Whew! 
Would be so much easier to just buy another 10 gallon breeding tank.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Or a larger tank and just put in a divider.

Gary


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Actually, it is not the EBR that I am getting from Tom, but an EBR/GBR hybrid. This is the picture from the Aquabid ad Tom put up. They' re really cool looking. 

Supposed to be here today. Excited!

https://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwapisto&1590914403


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Here they are. This video does not do them justice-- they are like gleaming iridescent gems. 

My next breeding project. 

https://vimeo.com/424235767


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## zmartin (May 1, 2018)

Big day at your house. They’re gorgeous. 


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

zmartin said:


> Big day at your house. They’re gorgeous.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 It was! Shrimp and fish


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## chicken.nublet (Mar 29, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> Here they are. This video does not do them justice-- they are like gleaming iridescent gems.
> 
> My next breeding project.
> 
> https://vimeo.com/424235767


Beautiful fish!! Never really been a fan of rams but those are stunning.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Spectacular fish! @coralbandit still breeds truly remarkable fish. Appropriate they're now in such an experienced and caring environment. Great success to come for sure.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Wow! That might be my favorite ram I've ever seen. The EB's are just a bit too much to my eye, but those have the subtle beauty of a GBR only with fresh batteries! If they were temperature compatible with shrimp, I'd drop what I'm doing and be placing an order right now.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

chicken.nublet said:


> Beautiful fish!! Never really been a fan of rams but those are stunning.


They are really beautiful. My favorite of all the rams Ive seen so far...

Bump:


schooldazed said:


> Spectacular fish! @*coralbandit still* breeds truly remarkable fish. Appropriate they're now in such an experienced and caring environment. Great success to come for sure.


 Tom does. Flat out the best in breeding these fish. Im a novice breeder, but I learn that much more with each group.
One thing you will notice in the video is how aggressive they are. They are bullies in a small package. 

Bump:


Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Wow! That might be my favorite ram I've ever seen. The EB's are just a bit too much to my eye, but those have the subtle beauty of a GBR only with fresh batteries! If they were temperature compatible with shrimp, I'd drop what I'm doing and be placing an order right now.


I agree- my favorite as well. Its less of a blue color than the EBR's and more of a light blue glow. Subtle beauty- just like you said. If in the future you find room let me know, Ill have fry soon. [With any luck] :laugh2:


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

I would have used, "Hey Ladies!" by the Beastie Boys as the soundtrack for that video!

Those are stunning fish! Congrats man! 

Gary


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Crazygar said:


> I would have used, "Hey Ladies!" by the Beastie Boys as the soundtrack for that video!
> 
> Those are stunning fish! Congrats man!
> 
> Gary


Haha! :laugh2: Perfect soundtrack.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Got all the dark fry moved out of the 10 gallon and relocated to the 30 gallon so they could stretch out and grow. There are 35 fry. 
Put a male/ female ( I think, I hope) GBR/EBR in 10 for-- hopefully and eventually-- a new group of fry. 
Fingers and toes crossed.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I have just been informed that one of the dark rams I sold as an unsexed pair has spawned. 5 months old! Not sure if fertilized or if the other is male.
That was so fast!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Didnt take long, a pair of the EBR/GBR has ( or is in the process of) spawning. Im going to wait until done and transfer male to 10 gallon and see what we get. 
Here we go again 

https://vimeo.com/428370280


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

look at them hard at work! haha! and the black youngins are looking great!


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

I suggest turning off Barry White and Sinatra in the evening. Sounds like a Breeding factory! Good job!

Gary


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I ended up adding both the male and female GBR/EBR to 10 gallon with the spawn and they appear to be getting along well.
No serious squabbles. 
All the eggs appear to be fertilized and miraculously have absolutely no fungus on any of them. Usually the eggs from the darks will have some fungus on at least some of them. Interesting. 
Been feeding them with baby brine shrimp to "let them know" there is plenty of food for fry. 
Normally I would do a water change to keep fungus down from eggs, but since they are all good Ill wait until tomorrow. Or, maybe, just wait until see wigglers. 
Will assess tomorrow.


Edit: Another pair in 30 gallon has laid eggs. These guys are busy!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

lksdrinker said:


> So not sure how I've missed this thread here, but that is my video....sorry if the title wasn't too PG but thats why I didnt spell it out! Glad to know someone found my video informative! I'm actually going home today to open box with a pair of dark rams sent to me by a breeder named Tom. I'll take a guess that its one and the same. If you're interested here is a video tour I did of his fish room (this was before either he or I had any black rams)...there are also some other videos on my channel showing some of the black rams I've had (and unfortunately since lost).
> 
> https://youtu.be/uhFp68wjRUU.
> 
> ...


What have your results been from the last group of dark rams that you got from Tom? I went back through this thread and I came to your post and I wondered if you were still working with these fish?

It also reminded me of the thinking that the darkest rams are believed to come from a dark and a gold from dark parentage. Id forgotten that. After I get this next batch out of my breeder Ill try that approach.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Discusluv said:


> It also reminded me of the thinking that the darkest rams are believed to come from a dark and a gold from dark parentage. Id forgotten that. After I get this next batch out of my breeder Ill try that approach.



Breeding per above is most likely a percentage play. Seems darkest darks are less hearty - have a higher fry mortality rate and lower reproductive rate. If this is the case, best to use a gold female for the above approach. A larger spawn of even a lower percentage of dark darks may end up producing more.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Well, I gave the EBR/GBR's their chance to raise the fry from latest spawn, but the eggs got eaten before getting to that point. 
Next time ill leave the male and take out female. 

Its interesting, after they spawned they pretty much ignored the eggs. Inexperience or more relaxed tending to spawn than the darks? 
So different from the last two spawns with the dark female/gold male and male/female dark. As you can remember, the gold was so aggressive with the female after spawning that he killed her. He obsessively fanned and hovered over these eggs, wigglers, and fry until I took him out a couple weeks later. The dark male/female were nice to each other for the most part ( a little chasing, but nothing too aggressive). but, only one would leave at a time while they tended the spawn, wigglers, fry.-- I think I did take the female dark out pretty early, just in case, I need to look back. 

It may be that Tom had spawned these darks before where the EBR/GBR are sub-adults and just coming into maturity.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

It's been over a decade since I bred GBRs, but I remember someone telling me, "third time's a charm" when it comes to new breeders. They seem to eat the eggs or just do something mental the first try or two. I bet you're well on your way with this pair. I will be very excited to see the fry progression when that happens!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The EBR/GBR female is looking like she will be laying here again in next couple days. The tummy is getting redder and rounder. I wish it was so easy to tell male from female with the darks. it seems to me that the males are much bigger than the females in the species overall, but I have heard that this is not always the case. 

I sold the last of my 5.5 month old dark Rams yesterday that were from a gold male and a dark female. The 2 month old fry, being of both dark parents, are appearing much darker overall than the other group at same age. They are also bigger because I separated them from the golds at a much younger age. 

I was wondering about what would come of breeding the EBR/GBR and the darks. I wonder if they would look more like Marco's Blue Knight Rams? I might try that at some point.

Took a video of the 2 mo. old fry today. These guys are not anywhere near their adult coloration. As they mature, their colors deepen. 
They are a bit stressed because I caught them with a net and stuck them into this specimen container. Mean mommy. 

https://vimeo.com/430897953


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

If that blue iridescence showed through on black individuals, that would make for an incredible freshwater fish.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Had to take out a small group of the gold rams for a local buyer so I thought I would take a quick video. They are stressed, but their colors are starting to deepen overall. 

https://vimeo.com/431073801


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Another pair of EBR/GBR spawned in the 30 gallon. I wish I had another small tank set up. Actually- about 4 more 5 gallons would be perfect. 1 for the EBR/GBR's to spawn, 2 for the darks, and 1 for testing a cross between the EBR/GBR's and the darks ( which must be what a Dark Knight consists of). There are several people doing a long tailed version of the various colors of the rams, but I dont care for them. No longer look like rams to me. The other one Im not interested in breeding is the EBR-- it looks artificially dyed/hormoned. 

Anyways back to the spawn in the 30 gallon--- just as a lark I placed the eggs with the EBR/GBR male already tending to a spawn in the 10 gallon. 
Thought "what the heck", there is no way this spawn is going to make it in the 30 gallon with all the dark fry and the other 2 ram in there. There is a chance this male may think these are his eggs as well.

So far he is moving back and forth between these two spawns, a bit bewildered how those eggs got to that other location- lol! The first group looks like they are about a day from wigglers stage ( 3days old), the others are only about 12 hours old ( 4 days off). 

Would be kinda cool if it works.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

You have a Production Line going there DiscusLuv! Sounds like Cali is about get an influx of Rams...

Gary


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

Have you found there is a high demand for the fry during covid or are you selling it to fish stores?
I know my local club has just had virtual meetings so I have not been able to sell/trade any fish stuff


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

monkeyruler90 said:


> Have you found there is a high demand for the fry during covid or are you selling it to fish stores?
> I know my local club has just had virtual meetings so I have not been able to sell/trade any fish stuff


 Ive been selling them through word of mouth-- to members of my local aquatic society and friends of. I have also been selling on Aquabid and have had orders from here. 

The golds are selling more slowly, which is understandable because people can get them at their local pet store. But, they dont realize how robust and healthy home-bred rams are compared to the drab and sickly Rams you often find at the LFS. I had rams years ago and they always died on me. I thought they were just "weak fish" in general- but, they really arent when kept in softer- neutral and warm water. 

The eldest group of dark's ( they were 5 months old) are sold out; but, I only had about 15 of them. The second group of darks I had 35, I now have about 20 left of this group. 

Hopefully this spawn of EBR/GBR's is viable, I need to get more babies in the pipeline. Im working on my husband to get at least 2 more 5 gallons.  I really need them for my pairs. 



What type of fish do you breed/sell?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The male has fully accepted the other spawn and has transferred his own eggs ( which was a smaller spawn) to this group. 
Actually, he has placed them all into a large indentation in the rock to contain them. They are in the wiggler stage. Just barely traveling about in this space. 
Give it a day-- he will be frantically chasing them down, grabbing them in his mouth and depositing them back into the indentation. LOL. 

This is a great find though. Now I know I can give a male multiple spawns-- if Im so lucky to have that happen again-- to tend to.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> Ive been selling them through word of mouth-- to members of my local aquatic society and friends of. I have also been selling on Aquabid and have had orders from here.
> 
> The golds are selling more slowly, which is understandable because people can get them at their local pet store. But, they dont realize how robust and healthy home-bred rams are compared to the drab and sickly Rams you often find at the LFS. I had rams years ago and they always died on me. I thought they were just "weak fish" in general- but, they really arent when kept in softer- neutral and warm water.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I guess using the local club is a good way to keep trading, I'll look into something here in San Diego. 
I'm not breeding anything yet but I was thinking about the demand in the hobby and if people are still moving livestock or if the LFS are making more $$. do you get a pretty fair price from selling to offset the expenses and your time or are you still loosing money overall and consider it a fun hobby?
I agree that there is value on local bred fish instead of farm raised. I've had low mortality rate on locally bred tetras compared to when coming from the wild. 

Oh great news on the male taking the extra babies! and good luck with the husband letting you have more tanks


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The hubby devised a separator so I could make this 10 gallon hold 2 pairs. Make it into 2 - 5 gallon sections. The EBR/GBR male is still on some eggs. Looks like they will be free swimming by tomorrow night. On the other side, I put in the dark pair.

Please excuse the debris on base glass. All the wrigglers have been placed on bottom glass next to the rock. It’s hard to see where they end and where they begin so when changing water staying away from that area with siphoning. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

This is a fun thread and I am learning from your experiences. Keep it up!

Given our new addition to the family, my tanks are being neglected. For the foreseeable future the number of tanks is more likely to contract then to expand. Yes! You have guessed it correctly - I have spare tanks and equipment to lease out 

Oh, and the pool is warm.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

OVT said:


> This is a fun thread and I am learning from your experiences. Keep it up!
> 
> Given our new addition to the family, my tanks are being neglected. For the foreseeable future the number of tanks is more likely to contract then to expand. Yes! You have guessed it correctly - I have spare tanks and equipment to lease out
> 
> Oh, and the pool is warm.


 Besides being a place to store information that I can go back and look at, Im hoping this will be helpful to someone just getting started. There are many places on the net to find a quick "how-to" for breeding rams. But, your always left with "But, what about this..." 

This thread may answer those little things that come up. 



That addition to your family is so beautiful. What a dog!
The equipment and the warm pool both sound enticing. 

We will get together soon! :smile2:


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Fry! Not all of them-- some still in tumbler stage"-- tumbling around the bottom of tank, but not yet strong enough to swim. Cant wait until they get off the bottom so I can vacuum!

You can see I put the dark Ram pair on other side at around the 1 minute mark. 

https://vimeo.com/432575358


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

We are all free-swimming now---

Day 7:

https://vimeo.com/433169445


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> We are all free-swimming now---
> 
> Day 7:
> 
> https://vimeo.com/433169445



That’s awesome! Looks like a lot of fry! Congrats! You’re making it look too easy.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The gold Rams are getting really rambunctious in the 60 gallon because they are now mature-- breeding age. Pairs are forming and digging in the sand and laying eggs! Ive gotten rid of most of them but still have about 15. 
The discus are starting to get annoyed---


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Sounds like you need a fishroom (great excuse) to keep your Breeding Pairs from terrorizing the other fish. 

Gary


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Crazygar said:


> Sounds like you need a fishroom (great excuse) to keep your Breeding Pairs from terrorizing the other fish.
> 
> Gary


 This is true. If I can only convince the husband. 



But, problem solved. Sold all the golds last night. They are on to their forever homes.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Dark rams have fry just starting to go free-swimming on the other side of the 10. They are only just starting to go free swimming and I'm not yet seeing all the fry *or * its a small batch. 
I had no idea they had spawned because they didn't lay on the usual spots: the clay saucer. Must have laid eggs on the tall java fern or the large rock I had put in tank with the java fern so the EBR/GBR and dark pair didnt see one another.

Its funny because I got reamed by the guy that runs one of the forums on German Rams on Facebook for my "terrible" set-up. That the two pairs would be soooo stressed that they wouldn't spawn and if they did-- just wait. It will be chaos fighting between the partition and the parents eating the fry. He acted as if I was a very irresponsible breeder. 

Well, maybe I am. But, so far it is working swimmingly. 
After a week or so Ill take the parents out and raise the fry myself all together. Thats the plan.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Fishroom would still be good. Just saying.

All kidding aside, if you wish to seriously consider keeping breeding these Rams, even a small one might be what you need. 10 Gallon Tanks on a rack... the setup is easier than one would think.

Find a corner or small area of the residence where you can do this. Sounds like you have hit a jackpot here.

Gary


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Crazygar said:


> Fishroom would still be good. Just saying.
> 
> All kidding aside, if you wish to seriously consider keeping breeding these Rams, even a small one might be what you need. 10 Gallon Tanks on a rack... the setup is easier than one would think.
> 
> ...


 Thanks so much, Gary. 

Now that my husband is seeing what I can make a month in fish and shrimp sales maybe I can talk him into that rack. 

Do you have a suggestion on the type of rack that it could be? I am so non-technical when it comes to these things. 

I imagine it would be a metal type rack or heavy duty plastic from someplace like Home depot?


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I made mine out of 2x4s and probably still have a blue print somewhere if you'd want to see. At very least I can take some photos. Those industrial Home Depot racks would certainly work if you could size them to the tanks you'd want. Might want to consider placing them sideways for space, unlike what I did.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I made mine out of 2x4s and probably still have a blue print somewhere if you'd want to see. At very least I can take some photos. Those industrial Home Depot racks would certainly work if you could size them to the tanks you'd want. Might want to consider placing them sideways for space, unlike what I did.


I cant build one, would need to buy. But, first, to convince the husband to make it possible.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Finding "the right spot" will also be key. Somewhere quiet and away from main traffic. The Home Depot ones will support some weight. There are many designs, usually I go online and look, look and look to see what others have done. 

Once again, you just need a small corner or space, this is not going to be an industrial project.

Gary


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The dark fry from both dark female and male parents are 3.5 months now. they are really getting nice. there is at least 1 that is a pitch black that I will keep for my breeding group. There are a few others that have beautiful blue markings on their face. 
Mom and dad are in here with the fry along with 5 of the GBR/EBR hybrids. The one male GBR/EBR is with the new group of 7 day old fry. 

https://vimeo.com/435189323?activit...iate&cjevent=71efa3a3bd7711ea837200b30a1c0e13


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Discusluv said:


> The dark fry from both dark female and male parents are 3.5 months now. they are really getting nice. there is at least 1 that is a pitch black that I will keep for my breeding group. There are a few others that have beautiful blue markings on their face.
> Mom and dad are in here with the fry along with 5 of the GBR/EBR hybrids. The one male GBR/EBR is with the new group of 7 day old fry.
> 
> https://vimeo.com/435189323?activit...iate&cjevent=71efa3a3bd7711ea837200b30a1c0e13


Fry lookin good!

For a fish room I feel like maybe this kind of shelving would be a nice idea, can adjust the exact placement/height per shelf. They are easy to assemble and quite robust. I think youd just need to cut wooden plates for each 10 gallon tank or so to lay on (could probably order them cut to size online or in-store if you dont have the tools for it easily). I think a nice rack system for a proper breeding project would be ideal, many options i guess to pull off the build though.

https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics...etal+restaurant+shelves&qid=1593816535&sr=8-3


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

andrewss said:


> Fry lookin good!
> 
> For a fish room I feel like maybe this kind of shelving would be a nice idea, can adjust the exact placement/height per shelf. They are easy to assemble and quite robust. I think youd just need to cut wooden plates for each 10 gallon tank or so to lay on (could probably order them cut to size online or in-store if you dont have the tools for it easily). I think a nice rack system for a proper breeding project would be ideal, many options i guess to pull off the build though.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics...etal+restaurant+shelves&qid=1593816535&sr=8-3


 I could manage to put that together, thank you!
I saved it in my Amazon bag.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Something that tall you'd definitely want to have earthquake straps or something to fasten it to the wall. 
What do others in earthquake country do?


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Discusluv said:


> I could manage to put that together, thank you!
> I saved it in my Amazon bag.


This one shows you a picture of flexibility the system works, you can connect units to the side instead of always going up, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/Shelving-Adj...vy+duty+metal+shelving&qid=1593853615&sr=8-33

Tons of sellers and products, mostly the same system though. I have a narrow unit of the same type in my bathroom with two big canisters on one shelf (20L per canister) to hold me RO water and after a few months I haven't noticed issues with it! I would say these shelves are pretty sturdy but if you have big weight (ie 10G tanks) up high you need ballast low to keep it stable and likely you would want to strap/fix/secure them somehow to the wall or something, depends I guess how you have the weight distributed or how vertical you go.

Here is my setup (yes my hobby has spilled out in the bathroom haha, I have my RO setup there and keep my WC mixing stuff and gear there... live in an apartment so gotta do it. 










^ It's nice cuz the canisters taps fit just over the edge so I can fill my mixing buckets up easily underneath then that square white container is where I do my 75/25 RO-Tap mixes for my GBR tank, big opening for the container so my big WC pump easily fits


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

andrewss said:


> This one shows you a picture of flexibility the system works, you can connect units to the side instead of always going up, etc.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Shelving-Adj...vy+duty+metal+shelving&qid=1593853615&sr=8-33
> 
> ...


Thats an excellent set-up. The rack works perfectly for your water.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

All the 5.5 month Rams are gone. Its weird too. I have been shuffling these fish back and forth to make room for this and that... and the last 8 got bagged up today.
I was like-- wait a minute--- what now? 
So, I transferred the 35- 3.5 month old darks to the 60 with the discus and left a dark pair in the 30 gallon. These 2 are a actually the parents of the 3.5 month old fry so they should lay within a few days. Ill start feeding them heavily with BBS and I lowered the TDS with some RO after a water change ( with slightly cooler water). This works like clock-work-usually. 

Im leaving for vacation for 6 days in 2 weeks. I have someone from a pet care service coming to feed and water the cats and fish while gone 2 x daily. Hopefully these fry will be okay with only 2 daily feedings. Not only that, but I usually do a 50% water change at least every other day in the fry tanks- hopefully the tank will hold out without these water changes. I do not want the pet sitter dealing with water changes in a fry tank. These guys are so small I would be afraid they would suck them out with the python.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Discusluv said:


> All the 5.5 month Rams are gone. Its weird too. I have been shuffling these fish back and forth to make room for this and that... and the last 8 got bagged up today.
> I was like-- wait a minute--- what now?
> So, I transferred the 35- 3.5 month old darks to the 60 with the discus and left a dark pair in the 30 gallon. These 2 are a actually the parents of the 3.5 month old fry so they should lay within a few days. Ill start feeding them heavily with BBS and I lowered the TDS with some RO after a water change ( with slightly cooler water). This works like clock-work-usually.
> 
> Im leaving for vacation for 6 days in 2 weeks. I have someone from a pet care service coming to feed and water the cats and fish while gone 2 x daily. Hopefully these fry will be okay with only 2 daily feedings. Not only that, but I usually do a 50% water change at least every other day in the fry tanks- hopefully the tank will hold out without these water changes. I do not want the pet sitter dealing with water changes in a fry tank. These guys are so small I would be afraid they would suck them out with the python.


Here's to hoping the 6 days away are fine to the fry, I bet if you do a change on the day you leave it should be OK - if you fool proofed your WC tech maybe one of the caretakers could handle it, maybe with an automated system or really fool proofed technique. Anyway good luck!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

A really terrible video--- but- you can see that this group of fry is really, really big. 

https://vimeo.com/441208884


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Something interesting. I have about 23- ish 4 month old dark rams left from the last spawn of D/D rams. There are 3 that are so much smaller than the others that Ive avoided bagging them ( or really even looking at them closely) when have purchaser. Man, I should have paid attention. These little guys are actually the cream of the crop if you are looking for a completely dark specimen like the parents. But, they are so small! Are they ever going to fill out and grow like the parents? 

Sometime over next couple days Ill get the 3 out and put with 3 of the larger ones to show you the color and size difference between them. 

I had been doing some reading about the black color variant in fish and it appears that with the most pitch black Angels the same holds true. The most pitch black, darkest fish are smaller and less vigorous than the dark fish that show some variation of color. While this appears to be true of young, developing fish, I would not say this holds true of adult rams. My golds, pitch black, and EBR/GBR seems equally strong and healthy.

There is so much to learn from breeding these fish.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Discusluv said:


> A really terrible video--- but- you can see that this group of fry is really, really big.
> 
> https://vimeo.com/441208884


They're looking fantastic. Am curious, can you tell if any have different coloring from the others? These were from two GBR/EBRs, right?



Discusluv said:


> Something interesting. I have about 23- ish 4 month old dark rams left from the last spawn of D/D rams. There are 3 that are so much smaller than the others that Ive avoided bagging them ( or really even looking at them closely) when have purchaser. Man, I should have paid attention. These little guys are actually the cream of the crop if you are looking for a completely dark specimen like the parents. But, they are so small! Are they ever going to fill out and grow like the parents?
> 
> Sometime over next couple days Ill get the 3 out and put with 3 of the larger ones to show you the color and size difference between them.
> 
> ...


Edit: The smaller darkest rams may very well grow out to be "normal" size with your strong feeding and water changing practices. May just be slower to do so. What you're describing is what has made me think that more is going on genetically with the darkest dark rams than what is seen with double dark angelfish. With angels, the dark trait comes from a single co-dominate allele. A single dose from one parent makes a black lace/somewhat dark fish and a double dose makes a completely black fish. If the same were true with your dark rams, two "double darks" would produce an all "double dark" spawn.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> They're looking fantastic. Am curious, can you tell if any have different coloring from the others? These were from two GBR/EBRs, right?


 Yes, I can see color variation, but am a bit confused by what I see. I also had a dark pair spawn on the other side of the tank, but didnt think that any of the spawn made it. Got eaten. I then took out the divider and thought I just had the 2 different spawns from the EBR. But...


I can distinctly see I have some gold rams in the bunch. Would the GBR/EBR's throw of golds? I dont see any darks at all. I can definately see the markings of GBR on others. They seem to be the largest and strongest of the group. 



I also can see definite size difference between the first group of GBR/EBR's that went free swimming and the second. The smallest of the fry are the golds. The question is: are the golds the progeny of the GBR/EBR's or the darks? If they are the progeny of the GBR/EBR, is an Electric blue ram the mixing of a GBR and a gold?

Bump:


schooldazed said:


> Edit: The smaller darkest rams may very well grow out to be "normal" size with your strong feeding and water changing practices. May just be slower to do so. What you're describing is what has made me think that more is going on genetically with the darkest dark rams than what is seen with double dark angelfish. With angels, the dark trait comes from a single co-dominate allele. A single dose from one parent makes a black lace/somewhat dark fish and a double dose makes a completely black fish. If the same were true with your dark rams, two "double darks" would produce an all "double dark" spawn.


 Im thinking this is the case as well. I know Tom said that he noticed that there would be very few -- or sometimes none!- of the darkest rams in a spawn between a dark pair. It has taken him several years to get a fair size breeding group of this darker color. 

maybe environmental factors have a say here as well-- like you alluded to- diet, water chemistry and/or organic load, temperature? [shrug].


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Discusluv said:


> Yes, I can see color variation, but am a bit confused by what I see. I also had a dark pair spawn on the other side of the tank, but didnt think that any of the spawn made it. Got eaten. I then took out the divider and thought I just had the 2 different spawns from the EBR. But...
> 
> 
> I can distinctly see I have some gold rams in the bunch. Would the GBR/EBR's throw of golds? I dont see any darks at all. I can definately see the markings of GBR on others. They seem to be the largest and strongest of the group.
> ...



I guess the golds you're seeing could be from the GBR/EBRs. They could have a non-expressing gold gene. Either recessive or perhaps suppressed by the EBR gene. Don't know enough about ram genetics. Seems more likely the gold is from the other spawn and are just smaller because they are younger? Would expect the GBR/EBR pair to produce a quarter GBRs, a quarter EBRs, and half hybrids like the parents. If both parents do have a gold gene that is recessive and not at the same locus as the blue gene they would produce nine different genotypes and would guess six different looking fish (phenotypes) including one sixteenth golds. The gold gene could be dominate and in one parent but suppressed by the blue gene. Or co-dominate and heterozygous in both parents. Either of these cases would throw some golds. By keeping a count of what the spawn looks like, you can determine the genetics of the parents. But not knowing if some are from a different spawn probably messes up the calculus.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> I guess the golds you're seeing could be from the GBR/EBRs. They could have a non-expressing gold gene. Either recessive or perhaps suppressed by the EBR gene. Don't know enough about ram genetics. Seems more likely the gold is from the other spawn and are just smaller because they are younger? Would expect the GBR/EBR pair to produce a quarter GBRs, a quarter EBRs, and half hybrids like the parents. If both parents do have a gold gene that is recessive and not at the same locus as the blue gene they would produce nine different genotypes and would guess six different looking fish (phenotypes) including one sixteenth golds. The gold gene could be dominate and in one parent but suppressed by the blue gene. Or co-dominate and heterozygous in both parents. Either of these cases would throw some golds. By keeping a count of what the spawn looks like, you can determine the genetics of the parents. But not knowing if some are from a different spawn probably messes up the calculus.


 Thank you. I will read through this several times today until it sinks in. :laugh2:
Im really looking forward to seeing the different colors that get from this group. Thats part of the allure for me breeding these fish. The discovery along the way of what you get from breeding.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Here are the 4 month old dark fry. I have put those smallest Rams from the group so you can see the size difference. They appear darker to me by eye. But, maybe you will be able to tell if they really are in video. 

https://vimeo.com/444376969


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I moved the 34 day old EBR/GBR fry into the 30 gallon ( with the juvenile whiptails and ancistrus) because it was getting pretty tight in the 10. They will stay in here for a month to grow out more and then go in the 60 gallon. Id say there are about 75 fry. At least 25% is Gold Rams, and 75% the EBR/GBR hybrid. 

And----- cant have an empty breeding tank so put a dark pair in there to remedy that situation.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Dark Rams spawned in breeding tank in 24 hours. 
The male got feisty with the female shortly after, had to take female out. 
They spawned fast!--

EDIT:

I have to say something that Ive learned recently. Breeders can be a resentful bunch. Act real happy when you purchase their fish, commend you on getting that first spawn, give you some pointers- but, the minute you get too successful and start to sell them you are an arch-enemy. 

I will not be this way. That is what this thread is all about. Giving people ( everyone and anyone who is interested) _specific_ pointers on every aspect ( no matter how mundane) of these fish. This thread has 353 posts-- it is information freely shared. Breeders need to get over themselves.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Absolutely agree DiscusLuv. It's not a State Secret, it's ok.

Gary


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

Discusluv said:


> I cant build one, would need to buy. But, first, to convince the husband to make it possible.


Might want to have a look at a thread I started (yeah, it's on SimplyDiscus, but there's nothing but really good blood between these two sites).

Fish Tank Rack using multiple HDX 36x14x54 Stands - Bowing Concerns

I'm trying out my derimmed, debased and drilled 20L aquariums on those cheap Home Depot racks. If they are good for those, they should be a snap for 10gallon tanks with all of their hardware in tact and no holes.... I'm limiting to 3 levels with generous spacing, but the unit comes with 4 shelves...

I'm definitely pushing it. Will add the other tanks to the 2nd rack this week and test it too. REad the thread and you will see what additional precautions I took (plywood/cork).


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

These guys are 2 months now. You can just start to see the faint blue coloration and markings of the GBR. I imagine that in another month you will be able to see that pale blue of the EBR. Also, so happy to see I have some golds here in the mix. 
The video quality is poor- as usual. But, at the 20 sec. mark, when I shoot lower in tank you can see better. 

https://vimeo.com/449510255


Remember, these are the parents:

https://vimeo.com/424235767


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Wow, those are breathtaking fish! Does the EB gene ever express in golds? Like a gold ram with a blue iridescence?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Wow, those are breathtaking fish! Does the EB gene ever express in golds? Like a gold ram with a blue iridescence?


Good question. Im not sure.


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

Discusluv said:


> Good question. Im not sure.


Marcos has developed a very nice line of Powder Blues... which have a lighter irridescence and a reddish crown. The best way to describe it is a Red Crown Gold Ram w/ PowderBlue irridescent scales. Very clean, very pretty. I don't know the genealogy of Marco's Powder Blues (some call it a Perlmutter)...


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The last 2 dark ram spawns have been eaten by male. Very strange. This male has always been such a good parent but not lately. This last spawn ( 3rd one) I took both male and female out after spawn complete and tending to eggs myself. Some fungus on eggs, but not too much. I will miss watching the male tend to the little guys.


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## garloki72 (Oct 31, 2010)

Wow those EBR/GBR rams look amazing, are you planning on selling them here when they're ready? If you are when would that be?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

garloki72 said:


> Wow those EBR/GBR rams look amazing, are you planning on selling them here when they're ready? If you are when would that be?


Yes. Some of the larger fry will be ready in about a month. I will place an ad on sales page when ready.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

The EBR/GBR's are just about ready to be rehomed. Its really hard to get a a video of how amazing their blue coloration is because I get up to the tank with the camera and they whiten out and look ugly so as not to be seen. If I could trick them into showing their colors that would be great. If Im just feeding them they are fine- they just do not like the camera. 
Brats!


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Discusluv said:


> The EBR/GBR's are just about ready to be rehomed. Its really hard to get a a video of how amazing their blue coloration is because I get up to the tank with the camera and they whiten out and look ugly so as not to be seen. If I could trick them into showing their colors that would be great. If Im just feeding them they are fine- they just do not like the camera.
> Brats!



Haha, only thing I can think of is using a telephoto lens in a dark room.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Discusluv said:


> The last 2 dark ram spawns have been eaten by male. Very strange. This male has always been such a good parent but not lately. This last spawn ( 3rd one) I took both male and female out after spawn complete and tending to eggs myself. Some fungus on eggs, but not too much. I will miss watching the male tend to the little guys.


Strange indeed! I know next to nothing about breeding but I can tell you my GBR pair actually did quite a really good job on their first hatch, seemed to work a lot together and got them free swimming until the blue neons ate all the babies 

Then the next spawns the eggs only survived a night or two (not sure why they got eaten or something). 

Then a 3rd or 4th spawn later I realize that after the eggs were laid my male was SUPER aggro to everyone in the tank especially the GBR female, he never let her come close to the nest. A few days later the fry are just starting to swim a bit free and I call a local breeder over to take the fry home to grow them out since I dont really want to myself nor have the spare tank for that. We had to net the male to get to the eggs and right when the female sees him out of the tank before we know it she darted to the nest and started eating the babies! She ate probably nearly half the fry before I could net her out (my GBRs are super easy to catch... maybe because theyre captive bred?).

Anyway the fry are actually doing really well and I got a little update from the breeder yesterday, if youre curious I posted about it in my journal. 

Keep up the good work your fish look great


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

andrewss said:


> Strange indeed! I know next to nothing about breeding but I can tell you my GBR pair actually did quite a really good job on their first hatch, seemed to work a lot together and got them free swimming until the blue neons ate all the babies
> 
> Then the next spawns the eggs only survived a night or two (not sure why they got eaten or something).
> 
> ...


 Thank you so much. I really enjoy breeding these little fish. They are amazing.

As of yet, no new hatch from the dark Rams. They are either getting eaten or fungusing over really quickly. 

I think that the problem may be that I am breeding the daughter fish with the father fish. Over-breeding. Being a new breeder, I didnt pay attention to implications of this or realize how quickly this could be a problem.
So, I ordered several dark females from another breeder. So, more beautiful dark females on the way and hope this will get me over the dry spell. 





Ill take a look at your journal-- for sure!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I separated some of the 3 month old EBR/GBR fry out of the 30 gallon and put them in here with the adults becuase the other 30 gallon is getting too crowded. Also, that tank is so old and scratched that I cant video anything from it. 

A few things from the video:

*At about the 2 minute mark you can see one of my first dark males that I was able to raise from my original dark pair. While not as nice as the male parent-- he is pretty nice. He has some exceptional color. i kept him for breeding. I was able to get some females that are not of the same (original) genetics to breed in future to this stock. I actually have a female in there now with my original male bought from breeder and she is getting full of eggs. She should drop some in a few days. 

*This larger gold male in video I raised from 2 darks from second spawn. I have heard that the darkest ( more uniformly dark) fish come from a fish that is DD/DG. We will see. 

*The EBR/GBR just turned 3 months and are about an inch. Most of them are at that and above. A handful closer to 1.5 and a handful under the 1 inch mark. They have not reached their adult coloration, that starts to reach its full potential when reach sexual maturity- between 3-4 months. Although, I have seen these fish breed at 2 months. Craziness!

ENJOY! Ill be putting the larger EBR/GBR up for sale in a week. Although, have not an inking of sex. 

https://vimeo.com/462237080


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