# Metering(needle) valves selection for our CO2 pressurized system



## Bettatail

About the connection type, fittings and adapters, will start another thread


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## Bettatail

If you know any missing data on the valves above , please let me know


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## kevmo911

Deleted - I originally misunderstood Betta's intent


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## Bettatail

kevmo911 said:


> In a DIY CO2 system, a metering valve is useless. You won't produce enough CO2 to possibly cause any harm to any fauna, but that's not important.


The DIY here is not for bottle and yeast setup.

please read the last line


Bettatail said:


> Please let me know if you see any other metering valves that not here and can be used in our *DIY CO2 pressurized system*.


It is the DIY precision CO2 flow pressurize system that hooks on a CO2 tank.


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## Bettatail

this thread is the sister copy of the same thread in Tom Barr's report website, discussions about the regulators are far and deep enough, now I just want to give more options on choosing the metering valves.

nothing harms, right?


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## Bettatail

Just hunted down a Japanese Fujikin S series metering valve from Evil bay, the seller have no clue how much was this valve when new..:icon_lol:

will post more metering valves info from other big name producers. Hopefully anyone read this have some idea and get a good deal when getting the right valve from clueless sellers.


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## Bettatail

Build a co2 system, for one of the member here.


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## ADA

Nice!!! Can you tell me which one is the best? I'm having some inconsistencies with my paintball diy.. it won't stay at 1bps. Either stops after a few hours, or worse, increases to over 20bps.

Will all of those valves you listed be strong enough to control the full force of a paintball tank? (800+ psi) Because the paintball tank is only capable of either on or off, right? So the valve needs to be strong enough that it won't burst under that pressure.

Thanks!


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## Bettatail

ADA said:


> Nice!!! Can you tell me which one is the best? I'm having some inconsistencies with my paintball diy.. it won't stay at 1bps. Either stops after a few hours, or worse, increases to over 20bps.
> 
> Will all of those valves you listed be strong enough to control the full force of a paintball tank? (800+ psi) Because the paintball tank is only capable of either on or off, right? So the valve needs to be strong enough that it won't burst under that pressure.
> 
> Thanks!


I don't want to get involve in the argument of which one is best, It is your decision to get the one you believe its the best and worth the value.

Swagelok 31 series, or hoke 2300 series are high pressure metering valve, they can work under high pressure, but they are not regulator.
if the PSI difference is 800 PSI between inlet and outlet of these two metering valves, the flow is relatively fast, Cv rate increase as the pressure difference rise.

And I doubt it is safe to put them to work, 800 PSI is a real challenge for rest of the fittings and connectors, you need a regulator to lower the pressure anyway.


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## Bettatail

updated, Fujikin metering valve and Ham-let metering valve

this is a Fujikin L series metering valve


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## Bettatail

no one have any uncommonly seen metering(needle) valve?


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## oldpunk78

I don't believe many of us have any idea what would work when just searching around on [Ebay Link Removed] You're probably not going to see anyone posting up their Hoke or Parker. I think my favorite not so common valve is the Swagelok 'S' series. It's kinda like a smaller version of the Ideal valve.

I don't think I've ever seen anybody else using this one: (my personal reg)


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## Bettatail

There is a Parker metering valve on evil bay right now, someone might go ahead and grab it.
it is the stainless steel NS model, flow precision is about the same as a swagelok M series metering valve.

Oldpunk, that is a lovely stainless steel setup you have, what is the maker of the reg? Air products?


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## oldpunk78

Thank you, yes it an airproducts unit.


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## Bettatail

Bettatail said:


> There is a Parker metering valve on evil bay right now, someone might go ahead and grab it.
> it is the stainless steel NS model, flow precision is about the same as a swagelok M series metering valve.


Who bought it?

show the picture after you receive this valve, thanks.


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## Bettatail

updated, about the solenoid valves


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## oldpunk78

Bettatail said:


> Who bought it?
> 
> show the picture after you receive this valve, thanks.


 Alright, here you go:

Parker 4Z(A)-NSL-BN-SS-K










Flow control is somewhere between a swagelok 'm' and 's' series. So kinda like a fabco.


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## Bettatail

Hoke 2315FAY 316 stainless steel high pressure metering valve, look really nice with large vernier handle, but not that precise.

On Evil bay, whoever want to give it a try can go for it.
320700608524 Evil bay ID.

and don't forget to post a picture if you get this valve


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## Bettatail

Update, SMC needle valve
flow rate comparison at low turn range.


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## Bettatail

Evil bay search key word for any model that available on the list:

*Metering valve*


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## kevmo911

Well, I broke down and bought a couple metering valves via Evilbay. One seems to have been an especially good deal given what I bought it for versus the list price - an SS-4BMW. The catch: it's missing the metered knob. I'll email Swagelok in the morning and see if I can order one, as I don't see a part number in the catalog - just the specs for it. I'm wondering how much the price of it will offset what I saved by buying it sans parts. Though, it still seems to work as it should. And it's missing the nut-ferrule sets, though I already have the SS tube/NPT adapters for it.

The other, I took a chance on. It was quite cheap, and I can't find any information on it anywhere. B 22RS4. I'm guessing there was once a Swagelok 22 series that was discontinued?

Oh, and there are a bunch of used Hoke 2311F2B's for sale. They're used, and look like crap, but they're cheap as heck and I'm intrigued by the 20 turns to .075Cv. And it's already got 1/8" FNPT fittings, so no adapters necessary.

Couple questions. If I were to try to save some cash by buying any type of B-400 or SS-400 1/4" compression fittings, would they all theoretically come with the same ferrule sets under the nuts? I do realize that combining brass and stainless steel in a compression fitting is a bad idea.

And when tightening down the adapters, is there a rule of thumb on how far to go? With 1/4" tubing, Swagelok says to go 1 1/4 turns after finger-tightening. But how about with metal adapters? And once you tighten them, is there no way to remove the adapter from the compression nut? I realize the nut will still unscrew from the NPT thread, but the adapter doesn't seem to want to slide out anymore. Not a problem, just want to know if it's a bad idea to try to force it.

And one last question / comment: It seems to me that with the temperamental nature of diffusers, low flow metering valves might be less useful (or, in the case of extremely low flow valves like the SS series, possibly useless?) when using a diffuser rather than injecting straight into some type of reactor. Comments?

Useful Swagelok parts:
SS(B)-4-TA-1-2 male adapter, 1/4" tube X 1/8" MNPT
SS(B)-4-TA-7-2 female adapter, 1/4" tube X 1/8" FNPT
SS(B)-400-NFSET 1/4" nut-ferrule compression set


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## Bettatail

Yes, swagelok double ferrules design use the same ferrules, materials can be stainless steel, brass, or nylon.
There are Tylok, Hamlet, A-lok(parker), and some others make the same ferrules, since the swagelok double ferrules pattern right has long expired.
Avoid gyrolok, it is double ferrules, made by HOKE, but the ferrule angle is different from swagelok and others.

you can use the single ferrule adapters also, if the ferrule port connect to the tube.(not single ferrule on a double ferrules port)



second question is easy to answer, same installation(same turn) for double ferrules fittings/adapters. But I always hand tight, then wrench turn a little bit, once feel the resistance(ferrules brace the tube), then 1/4 of wrench turn(ferrules press in the tube), because 1 1/4 turn is guarantee for 5000 psi application, we don't have that much pressure in the tube and 1 1/4 of turn is too much. Tighten too much, later on there is no more space for unscrew and re-tighten.
---you can unscrew the nut and remove the components, but the ferrules are pressed in on the tube, can't be removed. re-tighten you need to hand tight then 1/8-1/4 of a turn, wrench tight. Each time do the same, until there is no more space to re-tighten.




The CO2 flow in our application is really a SLOW flow, we have to use any metering valve(needle valve) at under 1-2 turn range.
so a low flow metering valve is easier to adjust the bubble rate.
some metering valves are small CV but not as precise as other same CV metering valve at low turn range. Example, the high pressure metering valves, small CV at full open but at low turn is not as precise as regular low flow metering valve, because the orifice/stem angle is big.
and the Below valve you just bought, is not as precise as other low flow metering valves(same CV at full open) at low turn, but it will get the job done. 
And you have a $250(when new) below valve for your bubble rate control.


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## Bettatail

Updated, new data add.
Swagelok 21 and 22 series metering valve.

And thanks to kevmo911, if it is not him, the 21 an 22 series metering valves were still buried in the dust( I have a 21 series metering valve was in the junk box, now I know it is one of the most useful for precise low flow control)


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## Bettatail

Update
Pneumadyne(Pneumatic Control System), 700 series needle valve

again, kevmo911 find another needle valve that good for our use.


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## Bettatail

Pneumadyne 700 series needle valve, 
Evil bay ID:
320657537595
Grab it if you need it.


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## Bettatail

HOKE MILLIMITE 1300 series metering valve, 1 degree stem angle, 
this is a brass version

Evil bay ID:

170664739045


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## plantbrain

In line brass or SS FPT check valves are priority vs the cheapo in line airline fittings.

I do not think you will do better than Ideal valves.
Burkets have not failed in any apps, clippards have, 

I have some older Nupro and Swageloks with the vernier handles. I like these, but the ideal still kick butt.

Swagelok 1/3 psi crack pressure check valve or the clippards are good as well.


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## bsmith

I have a few things to add to this cool discussion. 

I had a Swagelok SS-SS2-D when I set up my first co2 system. When I brought it into the local Swagelok to get the hose barb fittings to put it inline with co2 tubing they looked at me like a crazed animal when I told them I was going to use it on my fish tank to control the bubble rate of co2. They said this valve was normally used on gas spectrum analyzers (could have the wrong name there but pretty much a machine you would see on CSI that would be used in the forensic lab) and cost over $600 new! It was too much of a pain to adjust so I sold it. 

Now this is the Swagelok valve I have and I cant remember what model it is. It is used inline with a Crappard solenoid and a Victor regulator. Please if you know what model it is let me know. 










Here is the whole system. Please refrain from laughing too hard at the mess that resides in my stand...












At work I have a Concoa regulator, Burkert solenoid (no where near as hot as the Crappard), and a beautiful Chrome plated Ideal valve (I got lucky and was contacted by a member when he needed to fill a minimum order reqirement to get them to do a small number of Chrome plated valves).


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## herns

Bettatail said:


> HOKE MILLIMITE 1300 series metering valve, 1 degree stem angle,
> this is a brass version
> 
> Evil bay ID:
> 
> 170664739045


Wow! the price is $125! 

Ideal V. is about $85 when I bought it.


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## kevmo911

herns said:


> Wow! the price is $125!
> 
> Ideal V. is about $85 when I bought it.


Well, the millimite has a slightly lower Cv than the Ideal. And, let's face it, it's Evilbay. Some of the really good stuff is priced like the stuff yardsalers drool over, and some of the real garbage is passed off as gold and precious gems. And, either way, it all depends on what you're looking for.

I have a BM series Swagelok valve that's sold new for $250. And I bought it used for $13 shipped. And, since it might actually be useless for what I need it for, I might just sell it for what I bought it at.


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## Bettatail

sell it to me 
I will add another metering valve, to make them inline for fine bubble adjust.
so two metering valves together look GOOD.


Put more metering/needle valves inline, the adjustment is much precise, I am going to give it a try.
I plan to use the SMC AS1000 valves I have, to make them two each group(inline, their inlet/outlet are really easy to connect), so finer adjustment.


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## Bettatail

The pictures of Fujikin and HOKE Milli-mite metering valve.
the shape of handles look similar, who try to copy who?


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## Bettatail

Pictures of swagelok 22 series and bellow 4BMRG metering valves coming soon.


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## btimmer92

Bettatail said:


> sell it to me
> I will add another metering valve, to make them inline for fine bubble adjust.
> so two metering valves together look GOOD.
> 
> 
> Put more metering/needle valves inline, the adjustment is much precise, I am going to give it a try.
> I plan to use the SMC AS1000 valves I have, to make them two each group(inline, their inlet/outlet are really easy to connect), so finer adjustment.


putting two needle valves in conjunction will not make them more precise.

The flow will only be as high as the valve that has the lower flow, kind of like only as strong as the weakest link. Whichever valve is set to a higher flow does nothing, because the flow will always be lower due to the other metering valve.

If you have the second needle valve set more closed than the first, pressure will slowly build up between the two metering valves, until it is the same before and after the first valve. After that, the first valve becomes useless and does nothing to the flow of the system, because the second metering valve is the only limiting factor of the flow


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## Bettatail

btimmer92 said:


> putting two needle valves in conjunction will not make them more precise.
> 
> The flow will only be as high as the valve that has the lower flow, kind of like only as strong as the weakest link. Whichever valve is set to a higher flow does nothing, because the flow will always be lower due to the other metering valve.
> 
> If you have the second needle valve set more closed than the first, pressure will slowly build up between the two metering valves, until it is the same before and after the first valve. After that, the first valve becomes useless and does nothing to the flow of the system, because the second metering valve is the only limiting factor of the flow


good point, didn't think about that.

do someone know c02 density?
there is a formula for this, when two valves setup reach new equilibrium, the flow volume are the same at both valve, but this volume is always smaller than that the single valve with the same orifice/opening.
I remember density, the orifice(cutting surface area of airway), and pressure difference are key elements, but to make sure, I need the book.


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## btimmer92

example metering valve specs:
metering valve 1: 10 turns from 0bps-100bps
metering valve 2: 10 turns from 0bps-100bps

Let's say that metering valve 1 is set at 10bps

the adjustment span of metering valve 2 is *NOT*: 10 turns from 0bps-10bps
it is actually 1 turn from 0-10bps, and after 1 turn, it will do nothing.


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## btimmer92

good thought though, it would work if the pressure didn't build up between the two valves, because as we know, flow varies with pressure

Jaggedfury once had the same idea you did, except he was actually telling his customers that this could be done with his paintball neede valves..... :0


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## maknwar

If I had a choice between searching for needle valves like the Fujikin and HOKE Milli-mite vs calling Ideal and getting it in a few days, I would take the Ideal any day. Sure, you might find a good deal some day but the Fujikin and HOKE Milli-mite are not that popular and your going to be looking for a while.


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## btimmer92

I have still not to use anything in my setups except a fabco. I really want to try out an ideal, but they are too expensive for me. I will probably buy a few and build some regs out of them once I sell a regulator and get the necessary cash.


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## Bettatail

btimmer92 said:


> good thought though, it would work if the pressure didn't build up between the two valves, because as we know, flow varies with pressure
> 
> Jaggedfury once had the same idea you did, except he was actually telling his customers that this could be done with his paintball neede valves..... :0


the problem is that the input psi is 800, too much, if for some reason the second valve stuck, the space between 1st and 2nd valve will be 800 psi, if this space is plastic air tube but not metal that can withstand 800 psi, it will burst.
so cut off the flow from second valve will cause trouble, and always turn off flow at 1st valve.


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## Bettatail

maknwar said:


> If I had a choice between searching for needle valves like the Fujikin and HOKE Milli-mite vs calling Ideal and getting it in a few days, I would take the Ideal any day. Sure, you might find a good deal some day but the Fujikin and HOKE Milli-mite are not that popular and your going to be looking for a while.


it is for collection, not for sale 

and you can see ideal on flea bay too, just need some luck.
I believe someone here bought 3 or 4 of them, brass, the ideal, at the price lower than the swagelok.


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## Bettatail

btimmer92 said:


> example metering valve specs:
> metering valve 1: 10 turns from 0bps-100bps
> metering valve 2: 10 turns from 0bps-100bps
> 
> Let's say that metering valve 1 is set at 10bps
> 
> the adjustment span of metering valve 2 is *NOT*: 10 turns from 0bps-10bps
> it is actually 1 turn from 0-10bps, and after 1 turn, it will do nothing.


HA.
pressure difference.


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## btimmer92

lol lets not start another argument  we managed to leave the other one to rest....


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## bsmith

Does anyone know what the model of the Swagelok NV im using is?


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## maknwar

bsmith said:


> Does anyone know what the model of the Swagelok NV im using is?


got a pic? or at least a link to the pic?


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## bsmith

I posted up my set ups in post#29.


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## maknwar

looks like a swagelok ss-ss4


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## bsmith

That sounds familiar.


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## Bettatail

bsmith said:


>


It is a swagelok brass S series metering valve, material is different from the stainless steel version but all specs are the same.

B-SS4, I have one, exactly the same


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## Bettatail

Hoke metering valves will come into play, and kevmo911 will be the first to try it out.


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## herns

oldpunk78 said:


> I don't believe many of us have any idea what would work when just searching around on [Ebay Link Removed] You're probably not going to see anyone posting up their Hoke or Parker. I think my favorite not so common valve is the Swagelok 'S' series. It's kinda like a smaller version of the Ideal valve.
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen anybody else using this one: (my personal reg)




What Swagelok Metering valve model is this?


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## oldpunk78

^ That's a SS-SM2-S2-A that I modified slightly to use with 1/4" tubing.

This is the same valve with a metering handle added:










(That was a sweet reg... Now it just sits in a box  )


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## plantbrain

oldpunk78 said:


> ^ That's a SS-SM2-S2-A that I modified slightly to use with 1/4" tubing.
> 
> This is the same valve with a metering handle added:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (That was a sweet reg... Now it just sits in a box  )


Just needs a nice in line FPT check valve SS to go with, not that cheapo air tubing thingy...........


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## farrenator

I have the same valve except I have a Swagelok check valve plumbed into the gas output. It is the only valve I have ever used (just got into CO2 not too long ago) but it is great. Nice fine adjustment in conjunction with a quality regulator that runs my tank at low output pressure - 5 psi.





oldpunk78 said:


> I don't believe many of us have any idea what would work when just searching around on [Ebay Link Removed] You're probably not going to see anyone posting up their Hoke or Parker. I think my favorite not so common valve is the Swagelok 'S' series. It's kinda like a smaller version of the Ideal valve.
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen anybody else using this one: (my personal reg)


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## btimmer92

Were you referring to your needle valve or your regulator? Because that is the only regulator of its kind I have seen, but I think the S series is not uncommon. I have 3 right now just sitting in my toolbox (thanks to maknwar) and a lot of people have talked about theirs.

Did you just take off the compression fitting and screw the valve right into the solenoid? I didn't think you could do that.... If so, that is a pleasant surprise.


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## oldpunk78

He asked about the metering valve. That's the part I was talking about. That model actually has the in side with a 1/8 npt male connection instead of tube or vcr .


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## btimmer92

Wow that is pretty sweet. In that case, it is the first one I have seen.


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## Bettatail

HOKE MicroMite 1600 metering valve
CV:0.0008

In my net now, will show picture later, also the pictures of Hoke Millimite


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## Bettatail

Two exotic valves added, Fujikin PUN series(Japan) and Chell Mechanism Precision needle valve(UK), 
and after the HOKE Micromite, Chell became my prey as well.
Picture later.


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## btimmer92

kevmo911 said:


> Well, I broke down and bought a couple metering valves via Evilbay. One seems to have been an especially good deal given what I bought it for versus the list price - an SS-4BMW. The catch: it's missing the metered knob. I'll email Swagelok in the morning and see if I can order one, as I don't see a part number in the catalog - just the specs for it. I'm wondering how much the price of it will offset what I saved by buying it sans parts. Though, it still seems to work as it should. And it's missing the nut-ferrule sets, though I already have the SS tube/NPT adapters for it.
> 
> The other, I took a chance on. It was quite cheap, and I can't find any information on it anywhere. B 22RS4. I'm guessing there was once a Swagelok 22 series that was discontinued?
> 
> Oh, and there are a bunch of used Hoke 2311F2B's for sale. They're used, and look like crap, but they're cheap as heck and I'm intrigued by the 20 turns to .075Cv. And it's already got 1/8" FNPT fittings, so no adapters necessary.
> 
> Couple questions. If I were to try to save some cash by buying any type of B-400 or SS-400 1/4" compression fittings, would they all theoretically come with the same ferrule sets under the nuts? I do realize that combining brass and stainless steel in a compression fitting is a bad idea.
> 
> And when tightening down the adapters, is there a rule of thumb on how far to go? With 1/4" tubing, Swagelok says to go 1 1/4 turns after finger-tightening. But how about with metal adapters? And once you tighten them, is there no way to remove the adapter from the compression nut? I realize the nut will still unscrew from the NPT thread, but the adapter doesn't seem to want to slide out anymore. Not a problem, just want to know if it's a bad idea to try to force it.
> 
> And one last question / comment: It seems to me that with the temperamental nature of diffusers, low flow metering valves might be less useful (or, in the case of extremely low flow valves like the SS series, possibly useless?) when using a diffuser rather than injecting straight into some type of reactor. Comments?
> 
> Useful Swagelok parts:
> SS(B)-4-TA-1-2 male adapter, 1/4" tube X 1/8" MNPT
> SS(B)-4-TA-7-2 female adapter, 1/4" tube X 1/8" FNPT
> SS(B)-400-NFSET 1/4" nut-ferrule compression set


I have the SS version of the 22RS4, got it from maknwar, he told me it was an s series, but no big deal, it is still a great valve. And yes, I learned the hard way that the nuts n ferrules are permanent LOL. Swagelok should have made that compression ferrule more like a spring. It is too elastic so once it compresses, it deforms permanently, instead of bouncing back. Maybe stainless steel should not have been used for the ferrule...


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## maknwar

btimmer92 said:


> I have the SS version of the 22RS4, got it from maknwar, he told me it was an s series, but no big deal, it is still a great valve. And yes, I learned the hard way that the nuts n ferrules are permanent LOL. Swagelok should have made that compression ferrule more like a spring. It is too elastic so once it compresses, it deforms permanently, instead of bouncing back. Maybe stainless steel should not have been used for the ferrule...


It's a predecessor to the s series.


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## oldpunk78

btimmer92 said:


> I learned the hard way that the nuts n ferrules are permanent LOL. Swagelok should have made that compression ferrule more like a spring. It is too elastic so once it compresses, it deforms permanently, instead of bouncing back. Maybe stainless steel should not have been used for the ferrule...


They're like that for a reason. The Swagelok ferrules clamp down very hard creating a really good seal. They will actually cut the pipe if you go too hard. If they didn't clamp down on the pipe you would have leaks. 

If you want to, you can actually use the nylon counterpart found at the hardware store. I just wouldn't try using that solution on anything but soft hose.


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## Bettatail

the 1/4" compression tube connection with stainless steel ferrules is 5000 psi rating, the brass ferules is 4000 psi rating.

and it is why retail is about $2 for a ferrule, back or front.


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## R_Barber001

Why is the solinoid always before the in-line compression metering valve?


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## Bettatail

:icon_eek:
why? I've never thought about that before...

here is what I think, if the solenoid is behind metering valve, the pressure air between the metering valve and the solenoid will create trouble once the solenoid is open.


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## Bettatail

updated.


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## Bettatail

Be prepare, guys, there will be flood of swagelok 22 series metering valves comming out from one of the liquidator on evil bay.


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## maknwar

Hopefully they are decently priced.


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## Bettatail

sorry, gentlemen, I got them all, a big slash on my bank account, :icon_neut. if any of you want it, let me know.

I was surprised, when I saw the listing, they had been listed for a whole day and no one actually went for them, probably the price was too high.
anyway, the items are now gone from the watch lists. If you had them in your watch list, you should know how much I got them for, I can probably spare some the same as I got them, don't hesitate to shoot me a pm.


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## ianiwane

Has anyone tried the hoke 1315 metering valves with the 3 degree stems? How do they compare to ideal valve 1 series. Numbers seem like they should be really similar.


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## Bettatail

the hoke 1325 3 degree stems is nowhere near ideal 1 series.
larger CV and orifice, less precision.

Tne hoke millimite 1 degreee stem angle CV is lower than ideal 1, but has a larger orifice, do need to compare them on side by side test.

Hoke micromite is hard to be found, but luckily, I have two new ones.


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## ianiwane

The cv seems pretty similar at .024 on the hoke and .019 on the ideal. Will that not yield similar results.


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## maknwar

That's at wide open. The ideal valve will take 20+ turns to get there.


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## ianiwane

Hoke takes 18 turns to get there. .024 is wide open as well.


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## Bettatail

Ideal valve is good, it is the cheapest in similar valves.

HOKE, Swagelok/Nupro, Parker, and other metering valves in the same performance range as Ideal valve are much higher in price.

Precision metering valves that are much better Ideal valve, will be at least double in retail. anyway, there are still metering valves we can grab, just need some luck.
Use Ideal as last resort, if you don't know what you need or can't find anything better.

The Nupro/swagelok discontinued 22 and 21 series, give it a try, no regret.


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## Bettatail

Net some 22 series

See my A***J, but still want to take them all, not fun.

please, if you want them and see I've already marked it, pm me before it ends, I can share. So to avoid pushing up the price.


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## 150EH

Bettatail said:


>


I love the handle Hoke Milli-mite metering valve, that's the kind of detail we should see on all the needle valves, I just glanced over the thread so I missed any pricing, are they expensive?


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## Bettatail

depends, the millimite metering valve industrial retail price from Hoke or Hoke distributor is $100-$150 per valve, but you can always try to find a liquidated or an old stock item for much lower price.


----------



## inkslinger

Here is my Swagelok valve that I replace my old Clippard valve that is sitting on top of the solenoid valve just to show the different in size.


----------



## ianiwane

Bettatail, have you ever tried out that 1600 series hoke that you have? Interested to see how much better than the ideal valve it is.


----------



## oldpunk78

ianiwane said:


> Bettatail, have you ever tried out that 1600 series hoke that you have? Interested to see how much better than the ideal valve it is.


If you look at the numbers, (I have not personally tried that Hoke yet) it's looks like the good 'ol Ideal valve will yield slightly more resolution for lack of a better term. 

Ideal 52 series - 0.0008 to 0.019, takes 24 turns of the knob to go from minimum to maximum.
Hoke 1600 series - 0.0008 to 0.0085(I think... I'm no math wiz), takes 18 turns of the knob to go from minimum to maximum. (It's a pretty steep curve too) It will certainly work well though. (I think... the cv charts can be misleading sometimes.)


----------



## ianiwane

If you are referring to the curve chart here. I think its turned around. Meaning normally # of turns is on the x axis and the cv is normally on the y axis. It looks like 5 full turns to about .0001. The max cv is actually .00085.
http://www.pneumatech.com.pl/public/pliki/8/20110609152732metering_1600.pdf
http://catalog.hoke.com/viewitems/metering-valves/micromite-1600-series

Seems way better than the ideal.


----------



## oldpunk78

ianiwane said:


> If you are referring to the curve chart here. I think its turned around. Meaning normally # of turns is on the x axis and the cv is normally on the x axis. It looks like 5 full turns to about .0001. The max cv is actually .00085.
> http://www.pneumatech.com.pl/public/pliki/8/20110609152732metering_1600.pdf
> http://catalog.hoke.com/viewitems/metering-valves/micromite-1600-series
> 
> Seems way better than the ideal.


Ya, I wasn't sure how to read that chart. If it maxes out at 0.00085, that's just nuts.


----------



## kevmo911

As 10 to the -3 power is .001, and the Hoke Cv chart has it max out at .85 Cv (times 10 to the -3 power) at 18 turns, the Cv would indeed be about 0 to .00085 (again, according to the info from Hoke). I bought one of these a while back just to play with, and have not done so yet. I'll try to do that this weekend and (try to) compare it to maybe a Swagelok S or Hoke 1300 (1d). Though differences on that scale start to be tough to catch, but I'll do my best.

Then again, I might have to order some more Gyrolok ferrule sets (Hoke just had to make their compression fittings "special") so it may take a couple weeks. Or somebody else can chime in.


----------



## ianiwane

Kev, if you read this (http://www.hoke.com/pdf/79307_interchange.pdf) you will gather that even though HOKE recommends using only their ferrules, they say you can use swagelok ferrules with the gyrolok fittings. 

"HOKE, while offering superior product design, is nonetheless able to guarantee functional interchangeability of the HOKE Gyrolok® and Swagelok® fittings." I've used swagelok ferrules on HOKE fittings and they work just fine.


----------



## Bettatail

ian, what I understand is HOKE fittings and Swagelok fittings are interchangeable, not the ferrules.
The ferrules are different, not interchangeable by design, but you can actually use different ferrules and they hold pretty well, for low pressure non critical applications(on your own risk). 
If you are going to get the angle pattern Micromite 1600 series metering valve, let me know, I will show you how to connect it to the system.


----------



## nvladik

Bettatail can you share? I am thinking of using them also.


----------



## OVT

I have one shown on the left that I got from Bettatail:










I also own at least 5 Ideal 52- ones. I am personally hard pressed to tell the difference between the two.
My only nit with Hoke is that the handle is on top, while on Ideals it's on the end. I guess I just got used to the Ideal's configuration.
Both valves use 1/8" NPT connectors (Male on Hoke, Femla on Ideal), so, the brand of the fittings does not matter.


----------



## ianiwane

Bettatail said:


> ian, what I understand is HOKE fittings and Swagelok fittings are interchangeable, not the ferrules.
> The ferrules are different, not interchangeable by design, but you can actually use different ferrules and they hold pretty well, for low pressure non critical applications(on your own risk).
> If you are going to get the angle pattern Micromite 1600 series metering valve, let me know, I will show you how to connect it to the system.


I gather from that link that the ferrules are interchangeable as well.

"The result is that HOKE Incorporated is able to guarantee the functional interchangeability of Gyrolok® Tube Fittings with similar fittings of certain other manufacturers, including Swagelok®, Parker A-lok® and Parker CPI™. Specifically, whenever Gyrolok® and fittings of certain other manufacturers are interchanged by using one manufacturer’s nut and ferrule system with the other’s body, HOKE will guarantee this interchanged fitting to effect a safe, secure leak tight seal provided there is no deficiency in parts not supplied by HOKE. Properly interchanged product is covered by HOKE Incorporated’s standard warranty."

But bettatail please share how you would connect one.


----------



## kevmo911

OVT said:


> I have one shown on the left that I got from Bettatail:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also own at least 5 Ideal 52- ones. I am personally hard pressed to tell the difference between the two.
> My only nit with Hoke is that the handle is on top, while on Ideals it's on the end. I guess I just got used to the Ideal's configuration.
> Both valves use 1/8" NPT connectors (Male on Hoke, Femla on Ideal), so, the brand of the fittings does not matter.


The 2 brass valves on the far left are Hoke 1300 (1 degree) valves, whose number of turns (18) and Cv (.012) are very similar to the Ideal 52-1 valves (24 turns and .019 Cv), so it's not surprising it's difficult to tell much of a difference in visual flow rates.

Also, both the Hokes and Ideals are available in straight and angle pattern body styles (the handle on top versus to the side).


----------



## Bettatail

The vernier handle is the best I've seen so far, with Turn Counter.
and the orifice of this valve is off scale, really small. Small orifice and low CV, the actual flow rate is suppose to be really small, but need to test it, which haven't done yet.


----------



## Bettatail

Parker HR series metering valve is currently available on ebay, the part number is 2F-H3L-*, it is 1/8" npt female connection(2F-), and high precision 3 degree, straight/Line version (H3L), grab it while you can.


----------



## Bryanmc1988

is that a good valve ? the parker HR series metering valve 2f h3l?


----------



## Bettatail

what do you expect from a $200+ metering valve, for $25?

I just found it out:

the $200+ is the liquidator price, the MSRP is $800+.
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/PARKER HANNIFIN/4MH3LKZSSTC


----------



## herns

Thanks for posting.


----------



## Bettatail

I am sure the seller has 50+, but at this rate his stock will be empty, today.
You got to be Usain Bolt for this deal...


----------



## herns

The link you provided show model 4M-H3L-KZ-SS-TC
E-vbay model is 2F-H3L-V-SS-TC. 

What is the difference?


----------



## Bettatail

They are same model, H3L

4M is 1/4 male NPT both end connection, and 2F is 1/8 female npt both end connection.

V and KZ, I believe it the difference of internal seal material.

Around same retail because they are H3L,(H)igh precision (3) degree stem angle, (L)ine/straight pattern.


----------



## kevmo911

2 - 1/8", 4 - 1/4"
M - MNPT, F - FNPT
H - HR series
3 - stem type 3
L - straight pattern
V - flourocarbon rubber, KZ - "highly flourinated flourocarbon rubber"
SS - stainless
TC - turn counter knob

http://www.technical-controls.com/graphics/catalogs/4170-HR_metering.pdf


----------



## ianiwane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEE8CaDIB2k


----------



## h4n

very nice!


----------



## Bettatail

h4n said:


> very nice!


It is gonna be expensive, think about what is coming after that metering valve, lol.


----------



## h4n

Bettatail said:


> It is gonna be expensive, think about what is coming after that metering valve, lol.


Haha ya I know!
The beginning to the end! Lol

-Sent from my Samsung Note, a "Phablet"


----------



## herns

ianiwane said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEE8CaDIB2k


 
Wow, that venier handle is huge! LOL!

Very precise nv.

10 grabs after bettatail post this info. Im sure its gonna be sold out soon.


----------



## daworldisblack

Looks very nice!


----------



## hbosman

herns said:


> Wow, that venier handle is huge! LOL!
> 
> Very precise nv.
> 
> 10 grabs after bettatail post this info. Im sure its gonna be sold out soon.


Ok, I just ordered a second one. I don't need it now but can't resist the price. :redface:


----------



## kevmo911

You know, if you type in the Evilbay version (the one currently selling for $25) into that site that quotes the $800+ for the 4M/KZ version, you get an estimated retail of $450. And if you substitute "k" for "tc", meaning the same valve with a simple knurled knob versus the turn counter knob, you get an estimated retail of $322. Meaning that either the turn counter knob is worth $128 *more* than the simple knurled knob, or that site is just making stuff up. As "neat" as that turn counter knob is, it's not the best thing since sliced bread. And it's next to useless for us, except as a simple metered handle. I'd bet on the "making stuff up" possibility.

Still, it's probably safe to say that this is a several hundred dollar valve. Awesome value, just not as awesome as a liquidation website suggests.


----------



## Bettatail

Glad that the seller stock so many and offering at such low price, it is really good news.

Such large quantity, Will keep the same valves price low for years once enough keep in the hands of hobbyists.


----------



## hbosman

If it wasn't for this deal, I don't think I'd spend more than the $35.00 the Fabco sells for. Let's face it, once you have it dialed in, you shouldn't have to adjust it much. Precision adjustment is great but, if you only have to change it once in a blue moon, how much should you spend? Anyway, $25.00 is really a great price, regardless. I really appreciate this thread.


----------



## Bettatail

kevmo911 said:


> You know, if you type in the Evilbay version (the one currently selling for $25) into that site that quotes the $800+ for the 4M/KZ version, you get an estimated retail of $450. And if you substitute "k" for "tc", meaning the same valve with a simple knurled knob versus the turn counter knob, you get an estimated retail of $322. Meaning that either the turn counter knob is worth $128 *more* than the simple knurled knob, or that site is just making stuff up. As "neat" as that turn counter knob is, it's not the best thing since sliced bread. And it's next to useless for us, except as a simple metered handle. I'd bet on the "making stuff up" possibility.
> 
> Still, it's probably safe to say that this is a several hundred dollar valve. Awesome value, just not as awesome as a liquidation website suggests.


I trust PLC, they are industrial parts supplier more than a liquidator, and they don't offer too much discount if the parts are currently circulated model.
And they list the part according to manufacture MSRP/retail price, and tech spec.


----------



## oldpunk78

Well, I got one of these hr3's in today. I must say, it's a really nice valve for our purposes. I'm about 3 turns open at 30psi and my atomizer is making a nice fog. Too bad it's not the angle version. Oh well... For $28 something shipped, it's a wonderful fleabay find.


----------



## Bettatail

hbosman said:


> If it wasn't for this deal, I don't think I'd spend more than the $35.00 the Fabco sells for. Let's face it, once you have it dialed in, you shouldn't have to adjust it much. Precision adjustment is great but, if you only have to change it once in a blue moon, how much should you spend? Anyway, $25.00 is really a great price, regardless. I really appreciate this thread.


At the price ratio $25/$800(1/32), fabco has to sell the NV55-18 at $1(1/32) per valve to match this deal.


----------



## Bettatail

oldpunk78 said:


> Well, I got one of these hr3's in today. I must say, it's a really nice valve for our purposes. I'm about 3 turns open at 30psi and my atomizer is making a nice fog. Too bad it's not the angle version. Oh well... For $28 something shipped, it's a wonderful fleabay find.


Nice, you are one step ahead, , and we gonna stick on this valves for a while, good news for other hobbists who don't have the equipment to put up a co2 system themselves.


----------



## kevmo911

Bettatail said:


> I trust PLC, they are industrial parts supplier more than a liquidator, and they don't offer too much discount if the parts are currently circulated model.
> And they list the part according to manufacture MSRP/retail price, and tech spec.


Okay, this is the last I'll say about the HR3 price. 

This is a fantastic deal. *This valve outperforms the vast majority of everything we've ever commonly used in this hobby.* But I have no qualms about questioning seemingly inaccurate claims. A savings of (not quite) four *hundred* dollars by replacing a tiny seal and changing the thread gender and size - according to the liquidator's estimated retail price - is ludicrous. And then *another $128* for a cheaper handle. So, no, I don't trust the liquidator's estimated retail prices. At least, not this one.

4M-H3L-KZ-SS-TC (1/4" Male, H3 valve, Kalrez seal, SS, turn counter knob)
http://www.plccenter.com/en-US/Buy/PARKER HANNIFIN/4MH3LKZSSTC
2F-H3L-V-SS-TC (the Evilbay model, with 1/8" Female, H3, regular flourocarbon seal, SS, turn counter knob)
http://www.plccenter.com/en-US/Buy/PARKER/2FH3LVSSTC

And then, if you replace the turn counter knob with a regular knurled knob, you get:
2F-H3L-V-SS-K
http://www.plccenter.com/en-US/Buy/PARKER/2FH3LVSSK

Okay, I'm done. Get this valve while you can! But you're not allowed to tell yourself you saved eight hundred dollars off the retail. Four hundred at most


----------



## Bettatail

So it is at $450 retail then, nice, buy two and the saving is $800,lol.


----------



## Bettatail

pop if you are the lucky one to get one(or two) of these high precision Parker H3L metering valves

and the simplest way to make a post body is:

1. 1/4" male npt to 1/8" male npt reducer/nipple









2. a 1/8" female npt ports solenoid









3. 1/8" male npt to 1/8" male npt elbow









4. The Parker 2F-H3L-V-SS-TC

5. another 1/8" male npt elbow(same as #3) to connect to JBJ style bubble counter
--(or 1/8" male npt to 1/8" ID hose barb connector, connects to air hose and the ADA style inline bubble counter)
--(or 1/8" male npt to 1/4" OD SMC push and pull air hose straight/elbow quick connector, connects to air hose and the ADA style inline bubble counter.)


----------



## Bettatail

will look like this:


----------



## JeffyFunk

Bettatail said:


> 2. a 1/8" female npt ports solenoid
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5. another 1/8" male npt elbow(same as #3) to connect to JBJ style bubble counter
> --(or 1/8" male npt to 1/8" ID hose barb connector, connects to air hose and the ADA style inline bubble counter)
> --(or 1/8" male npt to 1/4" OD SMC push and pull air hose straight/elbow quick connector, connects to air hose and the ADA style inline bubble counter.)


Bettatail - What is the solenoid that you linked to & used in your CO2 regulator? It doesn't look like the often mentioned clippord mouse solenoid or the Burkett 6011... Also, where did you get the push to connect type hose connection? I'm guessing you like them more than the type you screw down over the ring?


----------



## herns

Bettatail said:


> pop if you are the lucky one to get one(or two) of these high precision Parker H3L metering valves
> 
> and the simplest way to make a post body is:
> 
> 1. 1/4" male npt to 1/8" male npt reducer/nipple
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. a 1/8" female npt ports solenoid
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. 1/8" male npt to 1/8" male npt elbow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4. The Parker 2F-H3L-V-SS-TC
> 
> 5. another 1/8" male npt elbow(same as #3) to connect to JBJ style bubble counter
> --(or 1/8" male npt to 1/8" ID hose barb connector, connects to air hose and the ADA style inline bubble counter)
> --(or 1/8" male npt to 1/4" OD SMC push and pull air hose straight/elbow quick connector, connects to air hose and the ADA style inline bubble counter.)


I am looking forward to build this way. Let me know if you have suggestions/ comments.

I have AP reg that the 1/4" port is at 6 O'clock position. 

So, from port, 1/4" to 1/8" Bushing > 1/8 male to 1/8 male npt elbow > Burkert Solenoid > 1/8" hex > Parker H3L > 1/8 male to 1/8 male elbow > JBJ bc counter.

thnx


----------



## Bettatail

it is relist again, looks like the seller has 52 more, it is really good news!


----------



## herns

kevmo911 said:


> Okay, this is the last I'll say about the HR3 price.
> 
> This is a fantastic deal. *This valve outperforms the vast majority of everything we've ever commonly used in this hobby.* But I have no qualms about questioning seemingly inaccurate claims. A savings of (not quite) four *hundred* dollars by replacing a tiny seal and changing the thread gender and size - according to the liquidator's estimated retail price - is ludicrous. And then *another $128* for a cheaper handle. So, no, I don't trust the liquidator's estimated retail prices. At least, not this one.
> 
> 4M-H3L-KZ-SS-TC (1/4" Male, H3 valve, Kalrez seal, SS, turn counter knob)
> http://www.plccenter.com/en-US/Buy/PARKER HANNIFIN/4MH3LKZSSTC
> 2F-H3L-V-SS-TC (the Evilbay model, with 1/8" Female, H3, regular flourocarbon seal, SS, turn counter knob)
> http://www.plccenter.com/en-US/Buy/PARKER/2FH3LVSSTC
> 
> And then, if you replace the turn counter knob with a regular knurled knob, you get:
> 2F-H3L-V-SS-K
> http://www.plccenter.com/en-US/Buy/PARKER/2FH3LVSSK
> 
> Okay, I'm done. Get this valve while you can! But you're not allowed to tell yourself you saved eight hundred dollars off the retail. Four hundred at most


When I first saw that retail price posted at $830.50 I wouldn't believe it either. Maybe a couple of hundred yes, but, $830.50? I would rather get 10 pcs of Ideal Valves.


----------



## Bettatail

herns said:


> When I first saw that retail price posted at $830.50 I wouldn't believe it either. Maybe a couple of hundred yes, but, $830.50? I would rather get 10 pcs of Ideal Valves.


now you have a chance to get 5 parker H3L instead of getting one ideal, lol.


----------



## herns

Bettatail said:


> now you have a chance to get 5 parker H3L instead of getting one ideal, lol.


Nah, Im broke. Got few of those H3L and a BIG catch of this recently. $25 shipped. Patience always pays off on e--bay. :flick:


----------



## oldpunk78

^ I can't make out the model # there. Which one is that?


----------



## herns

oldpunk78 said:


> ^ I can't make out the model # there. Which one is that?



That's Parker 2F-NMA-BN-B-V.


----------



## ianiwane

The NM valve probably won't be nearly as precise as the H3. Its orifice along with the cv is much bigger.


----------



## herns

I like this better than H3L because of its angle version. Adjustments works perfectly fine.

I bought few of this and the JBJ bc sits nicely at 90 deg angle.


----------



## Bettatail

herns said:


> Honestly I like this better than H3L because of its angle version. Adjustments works perfectly fine.
> 
> I bought few of this and the JBJ bc sits nicely at 90 deg angle.


it is H2A, but no Turn counter vernier handle though, it is not a vernier handle version, but will put one on from the H3L handle.


----------



## proaudio55

I'm a science nerd so I throttle my CO2 flow with a Dwyer rotameter. It has a built in needle valve; it's not quite as fine as i would like, but it's plenty easy to dial in 10cc/min rate.









http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pHosting.php?do=show&type=f&id=11385&title=High_def_rotameterc.jpg









http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pHosting.php?do=show&type=f&id=8900&title=CO2_ratesc.jpg









http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pHosting.php?do=show&type=f&id=8901&title=bubbles_a_secondc.jpg


----------



## kevmo911

Forgot I'd mentioned I was going to test it, but what with folks showing off their cool new valves, I figured I'd post this one.










At $50 (Evilbay), this represents the most, by about $20, that I've ever paid for a single valve. And I cringed when I purchased it. But I really wanted to play with it. Hoke Micromite 1600 series. Super low flow. The 1/8" tube fittings are a pain, but workable.


----------



## hbosman

Bettatail said:


> So it is at $450 retail then, nice, buy two and the saving is $800,lol.


That's what I did!!! Ha ha. Here's one of them. The second is for spare at this price. I also have a spare Victor VTS 250 regulator as well thanks to Fleabay.

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=C9474254738D220F!4368&authkey=!AFu25slQNcoD33k


----------



## Africancichlids637

I got a really good deal on a used milwaukee regulator but it might need a new needle valve. Is this parker *2F-H3L-V-SS-TC *a good replacement.Found it on ebay for like $30 shipped. I might get a Burkert 6011 soleniod as backup. Anyone help will get it as soon as I get a response. I thought about building one but I couldn't pass out on this deal I got.


----------



## Bettatail

The Parker metering valve is good, really good, one of the best we've seen so far.

and forget about the burkert 6011, go for the burkert stainless steel model 2822, it is only $25 on evil bay.
The burkert 2822 is $200+ retail, stainless steel, only made in Germany, you can't even find this model on Burkert USA website, and have to special order and ship from Germany.
it is only 2 watt power consumption, the lowest power consumption I 've seen on the 1/8" npt ported solenoid.

Actually I've been eyeing this solenoid for more than a year, only see it available recently and the seller sell it at $25.


----------



## Africancichlids637

Bettatail said:


> The Parker metering valve is good, really good, one of the best we've seen so far.
> 
> and forget about the burkert 6011, go for the burkert stainless steel model 2822, it is only $25 on evil bay.
> The burkert 2822 is $200+ retail, stainless steel, only made in Germany, you can't even find this model on Burkert USA website, and have to special order and ship from Germany.
> it is only 2 watt power consumption, the lowest power consumption I 've seen on the 1/8" npt ported solenoid.
> 
> Actually I've been eyeing this solenoid for more than a year, only see it available recently and the seller sell it at $25.


So are you saying the parker valve I mention is good to go? Do need an account to go onto evil bay? everytime I go there it leads me no where. Meaning I can't search for anything.


----------



## kevmo911

Africancichlids637 said:


> So are you saying the parker valve I mention is good to go? Do need an account to go onto evil bay? everytime I go there it leads me no where. Meaning I can't search for anything.


You have an issue with cookies or scripts that are accepted through your browser.

The majority of what we talk about here has been purchased through Evilbay. If you have it blocked, you're missing out.


----------



## Bettatail

of course you need evil bay account, but please don't show any link here, against the TPT policy.
And anyone selling on Evil bay is restricted as well, no ad on TPT.


----------



## Bettatail

Africancichlids637 said:


> So are you saying the parker valve I mention is good to go? Do need an account to go onto evil bay? everytime I go there it leads me no where. Meaning I can't search for anything.


:icon_mrgr

if you go to www.evilbay.com, of course that will take you to nowhere, lol

glad that you finally find out what is evil bay, and meet the Parker H3L metering valve.


----------



## jbrady33

Bettatail isn't on right now, so I'll ask the whole group - are these things really such a monster good deal that I should order one anyway - even though I am not sure I really am going to build a Co2 system? (debating that now)


----------



## oldpunk78

YES. These are awesome. You'd have no problem reselling it.

I will add that this is probably the best deal ever on an extremely high quality metering valve. You will probably never see these at this price again.


----------



## jbrady33

Got one! Some crazy part of me wants to get another - this is nuts, i don't even have a tank or regulator yet - not even tubing!


----------



## daworldisblack

Got mine in too! Stoked!


----------



## Africancichlids637

Got mines thanks bettatail


----------



## Africancichlids637

Bettatail said:


> :icon_mrgr
> 
> if you go to www.evilbay.com, of course that will take you to nowhere, lol
> 
> glad that you finally find out what is evil bay, and meet the Parker H3L metering valve.


I felt stupid and dumb but I caught on. :icon_redf


----------



## Bettatail

There is something I must mention: TAKE ONLY WHAT YOU NEED TO BUILD YOUR SYSTEM, DO NOT STOCK THE PARKER METERING VALVE OR THE BURKERT 2822 SOLENOID, ALWAYS THINK ABOUT OTHER HOBBYISTS AND LEAVE ENOUGH SO EVERYONE HAS A FAIR CHANCE TO GET A COUPLE TO BUILD THEIR SYSTEMS.

who are the ones get the 6 and 7 valves? are you going to build that many systems for your fish store or stock the parts to resell? I don't have anything to against you if you do need that many for your fish tanks, but if not, please leave some to other hobbyists so they can get the parts at fair price as well.


----------



## oldpunk78

I would imagine the folks buying multiples(6-7) are probably just eBay guys planning on reselling.


----------



## jbrady33

I controlled myself and just got one, but was seriously thinking about 3 (in total). W
Not to resell, like this:

- great deal, have to buy one even though I haven't actually decided if I want to inject co2
- but what if I do build it and really like it, I'll want it on the other tank too right? I should get two!
- what if something breaks or I build another tank, don't I need a spare? Get 3!

then I stopped myself, this is nuts- $90 of 'i might use this someday'? Just get one and be happy!


----------



## hbosman

I bought two. The second is to finally build up the spare Victor regulator I bought 2 years ago. I didn't want to regret "not" buying them, when the price was good.


----------



## Bettatail

oldpunk78 said:


> I would imagine the folks buying multiples(6-7) are probably just eBay guys planning on reselling.


don't worry, you are fine if you get many, because you build for the hobbyists and stand behind your product. And most important of all, with the build quality of your systems, I am sure your extra charge on top of the parts cost is reasonable.


----------



## freph

Got mine today. I was surprised to see it was still plastic wrapped...brand new valves. Impossible to beat this value folks short of stealing one.


----------



## Bettatail

hbosman said:


> I bought two. The second is to finally build up the spare Victor regulator I bought 2 years ago. I didn't want to regret "not" buying them, when the price was good.


it is understandable if you get two, it is really a good deal and better to get one as extra, for later use.
but stock large quantity to resell is not good, other hobbyists have to pay more if the low price available valves are depleted.

I do get some Parker metering valves, same source where the current evil bay seller got them from, but I don't sell the metering valve because they are for the systems that I am going to build...


----------



## Bettatail

freph said:


> Got mine today. I was surprised to see it was still plastic wrapped...brand new valves. Impossible to beat this value folks short of stealing one.


The Burkert 2822 stainless steel solenoid or Parker H3L?


----------



## jbrady33

Next Step - Now I just have to find a nice regulator cheap!


----------



## hbosman

Are the Burkert 2822's gone? I did a search today on ebay and nothing returns.


----------



## Bettatail

hbosman said:


> Are the Burkert 2822's gone? I did a search today on ebay and nothing returns.


search for completed listing and pm the seller.
and I am sure he will setup BIN soon.


----------



## hbosman

Bettatail said:


> search for completed listing and pm the seller.
> and I am sure he will setup BIN soon.


Ok, thanks.


----------



## Bettatail

jbrady33 said:


> Next Step - Now I just have to find a nice regulator cheap!


there are a lot of hobbyists got the Parker H3L metering valves now, and the good quality solenoid, the burkert 2822 is available, that leaves last major component, the double stage regulator to the last of the task, expect crush


----------



## Mostro

Bettatail said:


> search for completed listing and pm the seller.
> and I am sure he will setup BIN soon.


If it were me with a whole pile of widgets that I couldn't sell fast enough, and I was getting messages about relisting the item every time an auction expired, you can guess where the price would go. Supply, meet my new friend demand...


----------



## freph

Bettatail said:


> The Burkert 2822 stainless steel solenoid or Parker H3L?


The H3L. Solenoid should be here Friday! Now to hunt down the one missing fitting. :redface:


----------



## Africancichlids637

Bettatail said:


> search for completed listing and pm the seller.
> and I am sure he will setup BIN soon.


New listing is up for the Burkert 2822 with BIN. Mine should here Friday.


----------



## daworldisblack

Fingers-crossed he ships to Canada!


----------



## freph

Africancichlids637 said:


> New listing is up for the Burkert 2822 with BIN. Mine should here Friday.


Yep, $39.95 USD. Not a bad price honestly. The piece is worth far more.


----------



## herns

Africancichlids637 said:


> New listing is up for the Burkert 2822 with BIN. Mine should here Friday.



Hey guys, is the Burkert 2822 item no: 150932817898 on e--bay?
Can anyone confirm this? selller is smokin427?


Im also looking for CGA-320 nut and nipple. 2.5" long. Let me know where to find this cheaper.

thx


----------



## Mostro

Yep, that's it


----------



## OVT

I really like the size and looks of the mouse solenoid+manifold that I got from Bettatail.

Why Burkert 2822 is such a big deal? What am I missing here?
The BIN price on Burkert 2822 is now $39.95, btw.


----------



## oldpunk78

It's around $150 new. Small, low wattage, stainless solenoids are hard to come by. That's why Bettas so excited.


----------



## Bettatail

it is really good.
I think I need to let people know because large amount available, low price and I've been looking for this solenoid valve for longer than a year.
normally I don't give out information on what solenoids to pick up, because they are expensive and are really hard to come by, if certain models of solenoid are well known and have been targeted, my chance to get one is zero.
The burkert 2822 is not the case here, It is really rare and expensive, but just too many available at this time, and I did get some of them before I let the hobbyists know, with this large amount everyone will have a chance to get one, why not?


----------



## jbrady33

Bettatail said:


> it is really good.
> I think I need to let people know because large amount available, low price and I've been looking for this solenoid valve for longer than a year.
> normally I don't give out information on what solenoids to pick up, because they are expensive and are really hard to come by, if certain models of solenoid are well known and have been targeted, my chance to get one is zero.
> The burkert 2822 is not the case here, It is really rare and expensive, but just too many available at this time, and I did get some of them before I let the hobbyists know, with this large amount everyone will have a chance to get one, why not?


Is the 24 volt supply hard to come by, or just a regular wall wart transformer?


----------



## jbrady33

Here's a question for the experienced guys, is there any benefit to putting this nice, high quality needle valve after a so-so paintball or regulator setup? Space really is an issue on both my tanks - the mini paintball regulators really would help with that.

You can't run any co2 tank/system on it's side, can you?


----------



## OVT

oldpunk78 said:


> It's around $150 new. Small, low wattage, stainless solenoids are hard to come by. That's why Bettas so excited.


Um, he's been over-exited recently, maybe he got his gases mixed up? 

Yes, good price, etc etc but I'm not getting that warm feeling... Besides the rarity and price, what are the practical differences? It opens, it closes, it opens again lol. Do please educate me. Thx!

What going through my head is:

A woman will spend a $1 on a $2 item she does not need.
A man will spend $2 on a $1 item he needs.​


----------



## Bettatail

OVT said:


> Um, he's been over-exited recently, maybe he got his gases mixed up?
> 
> Yes, good price, etc etc but I'm not getting that warm feeling... Besides the rarity and price, what are the practical differences? It opens, it closes, it opens again lol. Do please educate me. Thx!
> 
> What going through my head is:
> 
> A woman will spend a $1 on a $2 item she does not need.
> A man will spend $2 on a $1 item he needs.​


lol, you caught me.
oldpunk and me do need this valve, and a brass burkert 6011 cost $35 without din connector or power cable, so we both treat it as item that we need, btw, it is $35 for a $200+ that we need.
and this apply to others who want a high quality co2 system, I am sure they are going to build nice systems with this solenoid and the Parker H3L metering valve.


----------



## Darkblade48

I'm curious what 24VAC adapter people are using for the Burkert 2822?

I would assume the same adapter would work for the Burkert 6011A (the 24VDC one)


----------



## Bettatail

It is the 24V DC power supply for the Burkert 2822.

it is $2-$5.....
Evil bay


----------



## Darkblade48

Bettatail said:


> It is the 24V DC power supply for the Burkert 2822.
> 
> it is $2-$5.....
> Evil bay


Is 500 mA too much? Too little? What about 1 A?

Not too sure about that part


----------



## Bettatail

the solenoid only draw 0.056A, on a clippard mouse solenoid.
and 0.167A on burkert 2822.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_will...f_higher_current_rating_to_lower_current_load


edit: did the calculation wrong, using 12V DC instead of 24VDC, on burkert 2822.
The current on burkert 2822 is 0.083A.


----------



## Darkblade48

Bettatail said:


> the solenoid only draw 0.056A, on a clippard mouse solenoid.
> and 0.167A on burkert 2822.
> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_will...f_higher_current_rating_to_lower_current_load


Thanks for the answer, but I thought that if you tried to connect a smaller load (say 167 mA) onto a power supply that is supplying 24V at 500 mA, then the actual voltage the solenoid is getting will be higher than 24V?


----------



## Mostro

I just received one of these Parker H3L valves and I have to say that I'm impressed by the apparent quality of it. Admittedly, I haven't tried it yet, but the action "feels" much smoother and more refined than that of the Hoke Millimite 1300 series valve that I was originally planning to use in my upcoming build. Again, this isn't based on use, just tactile impression. I can't wait to see it in action.


----------



## kevmo911

Mostro said:


> I just received one of these Parker H3L valves and I have to say that I'm impressed by the apparent quality of it. Admittedly, I haven't tried it yet, but the action "feels" much smoother and more refined than that of the Hoke Millimite 1300 series valve that I was originally planning to use in my upcoming build. Again, this isn't based on use, just tactile impression. I can't wait to see it in action.


Well, in any metering valve, there's a nut that will increase or decrease the pressure needed to turn the handle.

The H3R is much more precise than both the 1300 types (1 and 3 degree stems). But with 10 seconds and an adjustable wrench, you could make the HR3 knob pretty much impossible to turn, while making the 1300 handle as smooth as butter. Tactile impression is important, but less so when it's easily altered.


----------



## Mostro

Adjustments made with a wrench won't do much to change my perception of the difference in perceived fit, finish, and action between the two valves. The larger diameter handle and the counter dial mechanism also contribute to this impression. This does not imply that one is objectively superior to the other, and I have no doubt they function similarly enough for our purposes. Frankly these valves seem to be overkill and I expect that a handful of clothespins could be made to perform with some ingenuity. Fortunately the $28 price point makes that decision moot.


----------



## ProndFarms

I also received one of the Parker H3L valves for the $28 price for my upcoming build. Now I just need to find a decent regulator on a poor man's budget as well


----------



## Bettatail

Darkblade48 said:


> Thanks for the answer, but I thought that if you tried to connect a smaller load (say 167 mA) onto a power supply that is supplying 24V at 500 mA, then the actual voltage the solenoid is getting will be higher than 24V?



The 24V DC power adapter output voltage is 24V DC, not gonna change. the output current is pretty much depends on the device that connects to the adapter, for burkert solenoid, is 0.167A, means the actual current that the adapter supply to the solenoid is 0.167A, but the adapter can be a rated 0.5A, 1A, or more max current output.


----------



## Africancichlids637

Bettatail said:


> The 24V DC power adapter output voltage is 24V DC, not gonna change. the output current is pretty much depends on the device that connects to the adapter, for burkert solenoid, is 0.167A, means the actual current that the adapter supply to the solenoid is 0.167A, but the adapter can be a rated 0.5A, 1A, or more max current output.


Thank you, everything makes so much sense now... As I was confuse about A vs MA


----------



## Bettatail

Mostro said:


> and I expect that a handful of clothespins could be made to perform with some ingenuity.


lol, I even had a full set of micro drill bits ready to make custom orifice/holes on the manifold that for the clippard mouse solenoid, but to make "needle" is another dimension that require much advanced tools and material, so I chicken out.
The Parker H3L is engineering marvel in the similar valves, its needle stem is not a small "needle" look just like the other metering valves, but a much huge one.
Even with this huge "needle", this valve has much smaller orifice size than most other metering valves, and the precision to enlarge the small orifice according/proportional to the turns, is remarkable.


----------



## Bettatail

Africancichlids637 said:


> Thank you, everything makes so much sense now... As I was confuse about A vs MA


0.167A=167mA


----------



## Africancichlids637

Bettatail said:


> 0.167A=167mA


Thanks to you, I found a epson 24VDC .8A from thrift store.
Just got my parker valve and waiting on my regulator I got for also a very good deal, Airgas Y12-215B. I like the stainless look but it's costly so I'll just do a semi brass fittings look.


----------



## Mostro

Since we're all about mixing oil and water :icon_eek: by discussing solenoids in this metering valve thread, I am curious how others have done or plan to wire the Burkert 2822 with its two wire leads, into a neat little package. Is there another option outside of heat-shrink tubing? That will work just fine but I am curious to see if someone has come up with a better idea...


----------



## Darkblade48

Mostro said:


> Since we're all about mixing oil and water :icon_eek: by discussing solenoids in this metering valve thread, I am curious how others have done or plan to wire the Burkert 2822 with its two wire leads, into a neat little package. Is there another option outside of heat-shrink tubing? That will work just fine but I am curious to see if someone has come up with a better idea...


I'm not sure what kind of connections the 2822 has, but if it has your typical prongs, you could use spade connectors along with some heat-shrink tubing and electrical tape.


----------



## oldpunk78

Darkblade48 said:


> I'm not sure what kind of connections the 2822 has, but if it has your typical prongs, you could use spade connectors along with some heat-shrink tubing and electrical tape.


It has just two wires coming out of the coil housing. The cleanest way to wire it would be to just disassemble the whole thing and solder your own wires from your dc source inside the housing. Other than that, solder and shrink wrap.


----------



## kevmo911

I've messed around with a few methods. You can use butt splice connectors, or wire nuts (not pretty, but they work). And I know you were looking for something other than heat-shrink, but have you thought about using two sizes? One for each wire connection, and another, longer, larger size, to slide over both wires.

Soldering is probably the most sturdy connection, but I can't think of anything other than heat-shrink to cover it up.

As this is an issue I've struggled a lot with - what is the "prettiest" way to connect wires - I'd love to hear an electrician's suggestions.


----------



## Bettatail

you can use male/female terminal blade connectors, with protection plastic seal.
it is easy to disconnect and good insulation, a good alternative but not a permanent type as the soldering & heat shrink wrap method.


----------



## Mostro

oldpunk78 said:


> It has just two wires coming out of the coil housing. The cleanest way to wire it would be to just disassemble the whole thing and solder your own wires from your dc source inside the housing.


This sounds like the best move for a nice finished assembly. It's going to be a while before I get around to this, if anyone does so in the meantime pics would be smashing!


----------



## Daryo

Hey guys!I need little help wiring burkert 2822.How can I tell which wire from 24v DC power adapter goes to which solenoid wire?Thanks


----------



## oldpunk78

It doesn't matter. That's why they're not color coded.


----------



## Daryo

Thanks oldpunk78!


----------



## Bettatail

announce the burkert 2822 for a while now, and glad so many people got them.

the seller has less in stock, if you haven't get one, better get it before they disappear.
I believe no such deal will appear in years, this solenoid is really rare.

and the Parker H3L are still abundant, the seller did a good job stocking up so many and keep the price low.
just put some parts together to show the three way outputs with all Parker H3L, it is not a project and all parts are actually loose, the mouse solenoid and the split output block have been accounting for. 
will make a system like this, don't need it but just want to make a nice system.


----------



## oldpunk78

Bettatail said:


>


I got the one of those from the same seller. (the Harris) It had an internal leak...  I hope you have better luck with that one.


----------



## Bettatail

oldpunk78 said:


> I got the one of those from the same seller. (the Harris) It had an internal leak...  I hope you have better luck with that one.


thanks!, I don't think they are from the same seller, but I will test the two that I got.
what is in picture is not a complete system, it is only the mouse solenoid with the manifold that is for a hobbyist.

And If all two of the same regs are defect, I will be in trouble, because I order the regs for a local hobbyist and will give him the actual regulator price.
It is pretty much like a group buy locally, only for two people, but I paid for the regs in advance if all two are broken, = :icon_sad:


----------



## oldpunk78

Bettatail said:


> thanks!, I will test the two that I got, but what is in picture is not a complete system, it is only the mouse solenoid with the manifold that is for a hobbyist.
> 
> And If all two of the same regs are defect, I will be in trouble, because I order the regs for a local hobbyist and will give him the actual regulator price.
> It is pretty much like a group buy locally, only for two people, but I paid for the regs in advance if all two are broken, :icon_sad:


Ya, that's one thing that no one ever mentions when people suggest you build your own regulator. There is a failure rate on these things. For every 10 I buy, I have to toss out 3-4. Lately the number has been a little higher. I think the used stock is starting to bottom out a little.


----------



## Bettatail

it is about 30% fail rate for used regs, the chance of both of them fail is weak, but I don't have good faith on them because I had two of the same model brass regulators long time ago, all diaphragm damage.
The same model stainless steel regs that I got were good.
They are the same model of the GO, Swagelok or HOKE regulators, I am not really sure if the actual manufacture is Harris group, because I can't find it from Harris or Airproducts, and of course, it is not a Victor either.
Since it is the same model as GO, I suspect the actual manufacture is in JAPAN, just like those swagelok pressure gauges.


----------



## oldpunk78

I'm 99% sure Swagelok uses WIKA gauges from Germany. I also think these regs are very closely related to the Matheson 3200 series.


----------



## Bettatail

one more this week: finally own an ideal 54-1-11, a stainless steel 1 series metering valve,...


----------



## Bettatail

not be able to update the original post any more, but there is a new metering valve:

Brooks instrument NRS series metering valve
unfamiliar to the hobbyists but it is a big name in flow control devices.

*Brooks instrument Extremely low flow NRS needle control valve*, Model 8503, 8504, 8513, 8514.
This metering valve is the same design(non rising stem) as Parker Hannifin HR series, and same as Parker HR series, low CV for extremely low flow control.
8503, angle pattern, normal handle
8504, straight(inline) pattern, normal handle
8513, angle pattern, digital handle
8514, straight(inline) pattern, digital handle
stem type Cv.
type 6, CV: 0.052
type 5, CV: 0.017
type 4, CV: 0.0057
type 3, CV: 0.0013
type 2, CV: 0.00066
type 1, CV: 0.00029

in picture is the type 1, highest precision model, with lower CV than a Parker Hannifin H0 model(the best of Parker).
sorry about the distortion, they r cell phone pictures.


----------



## bsmith

Nice lookin valves. What kind of $ are they asking?


----------



## Bettatail

not really sure, I didn't get this valve from Brooks instruments, didn't bother to ask.

I got it as liquidated item, affordable,


----------



## oldpunk78

bsmith said:


> Nice lookin valves. What kind of $ are they asking?


I think we all need to remember that some of these really super awesome/precise valves cost some serious coin if you're not buying them in an auction or new old stock liquidation type situation. I'm under the assumption that the OP has done some serious research and spent countless hours looking for these things. 

With that said, you really have to view this thread as tool to help you identify a valve and how well it's going to work for you. A great example of this is the Parker HR3. It's friggin awesome and I never would have figured it out for myself. It's only because Bettatail and others have spent some serious time on this. 

If you're really interested in finding these valves for yourself, learn the part numbers and what they mean and preform searches every day on that one auction site. That's realistically what it takes.


----------



## kevmo911

Well, right now, if you're building your own rig, there are two realistic options.

The first is the economy option. The obvious choice is the AS-1200. It's a shutoff valve, and would cost you all of $12-15 shipped, new, from SMC, the manufacturer. It has its drawbacks - it's tiny (and therefore fragile), the knob is tiny (and difficult to turn in tiny increments), and in order to put anything on top of it (directly connected), you'd probably have to use both a stainless 10-32 nipple and an epoxy sealant (such as Loctite). And, you'd need a couple 10-32 to 1/8 adapters, which generally aren't available at brick-and-mortar stores. Alternatives are the Pneumadyne and Clippard manufactured valves, which are similarly priced and similarly effective. And both have optional larger handles.

The second option, which costs $10-15 more, is the Parker HR-3 valve currently available on Evilbay. It's currently the most impressive value of all the metering valves anybody has *EVER* realistically suggested for this hobby. I say "realistically suggested" because the super-precise valves are rarely, if ever, available for non-retail-prices. Not the absolute most precise valve, but close, at a fraction of the cost you'll likely ever find for a similarly-effective valve. More precise valves exist, but they're overkill, in my, and anybody else's, *honest* opinion. The HR-2, HR-1, and HR-0 valves would theoretically be more precise (theoretically because nobody here has posted their own comparison test results), as is the Hoke 1600 series valve (which I *have* tested against the HR3 and many of the other low-flow valves). In real-world applications, the HR3 blows away 90+% of the valves on the original list.

Anyway, *right now*, the HR3 is the unarguably best choice for an economical high-precision valve. In a month, or several months (whenever the current Evilbay seller runs out of stock) there will be a number of other high-precision options, especially the Swagelok S series, but also the Swagelok M, Swagelok 21/22, Ideal 1 series, and a few others. They'll cost more, and/or be harder to find. And they'll likely need adapters from 1/8 or 1/4 tubing, or 1/4 M/FNPT.

The one other thing that's really important to remember is that a valve with a large handle is far superior to a valve with a tny handle. For example, a Swagelok S-series valve, with a standard tiny handle, is functional. That same valve, however, with a vernier handle (whose most effective characteristic is not the gradients on the handle, but simply the increased diameter of the handle) is extremely precise. Why? A vernier handle circumference is 2.6 inches, while a standard handle circumference is 1.5 inches. So, a 1/2-inch turn on a vernier handle is a much smaller change than a half-inch turn on a standard handle. For this same reason, you'll see people recommending using a pair of pliers to adjust the standard needle valve on of of the generic regulator rigs (Milwaukee, Aquatek, Azoo, and clones) - it increases the functional diameter. A larger-diameter handle equals more precision, regardless of the valve. And the HR3 has a large handle, on top of its impressive precision.

That said, I'd love to get my hands on one of the Brooks valves, if only for the sake of experimentation. Most, or all, of the variants look like they'd be perfect for us ...and that digital knob looks pretty freakin' cool


----------



## OVT

*SS build with Matheson 3816 + Parker H3L*


----------



## Bettatail

Tested! now I am settle with the metering valve for my personal co2 system.

Takes too much turn to increase/decrease the bubble rate, miss the swagelok S series which is fast and accurate to set the bubbles. lol.
There is a problem of this metering valve though: like the Parker hannifin H2A, H3L, the brooks NRS needs higher pressure differential.
They all have the extremely small orifice and longer orifice passage(tube), so water/oil/dust can easily settled in the passage and clog the valve if the pressure differential is low. Higher pressure differential, water/oil/dust can easily be pushed through, so better to set the regulator output with higher pressure.

also, due to small orifice, need particle filters, the manual recommend a 2 micron particle filter:icon_eek:
I guess a 7 micron particle filter is sufficient because the flow rate is about 1-2 sccm (1 bubble/second). Orifice is big enough for the 7 micron particles to pass through.


----------



## Bettatail

OVT said:


>


nice build, but I prefer this style though,


----------



## OVT

Told you, Bettatail, a 100 times: I like my valve handles h o r i z o n t a l


----------



## Bettatail

kevmo911 said:


> The first is the economy option. The obvious choice is the AS-1200. It's a shutoff valve, and would cost you all of $12-15 shipped, new, from SMC, the manufacturer. It has its drawbacks - it's tiny (and therefore fragile), the knob is tiny (and difficult to turn in tiny increments), and in order to put anything on top of it (directly connected), you'd probably have to use both a stainless 10-32 nipple and an epoxy sealant (such as Loctite). And, you'd need a couple 10-32 to 1/8 adapters, which generally aren't available at brick-and-mortar stores. Alternatives are the Pneumadyne and Clippard manufactured valves, which are similarly priced and similarly effective. And both have optional larger handles.


kevin, wait until you have experience with newer model SMC AS1000 series needle valve, you may have different opinion, 

The one you talk about is the bigger needle stem, old and discontinued SMC AS1200. 

it is about $25 retail, the SMC AS1000 series needle valve.
I believe the needle valve on ADA co2 system is the SMC AS2000 series, works well, and it will give you good idea how a current model of SMC AS1000 performs. The SMC AS1000 has lower flow control and precise than the SMC AS2000 series.


----------



## Bettatail

there is a hoke micro mite currently, I am going to grab it.


----------



## FlyingHellFish

This looks like a cute Parker. There is also some weird Parker metering valve with a rotating tube connecter, lost the image. 










This is from Circle Sea Control -










Anyways, Betta tail, can you tell me what you used for the two *Parker H3* build you did?It had two silver DICI bubble counter, forgot what else. 

Also, can one remove the Vernier handle from the H3? I remember reading that you can remove it to prevent tempering. 

And how in the world did this guy get 400 dollars metering valves? Hope he giving you commission, he sold 3 today, one of which was to me.

Finally, isn't this a bit over kill? Once you get to 1 or 2 bps, shouldn't the cheap retail needle valves be enough? I don't think someone would need 0.3 or 1.3 bps, right? I mean, look at those paintball guys. They're using this -


----------



## Bettatail

FlyingHellFish said:


> This looks like a cute Parker. There is also some weird Parker metering valve with a rotating tube connecter, lost the image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is from Circle Sea Control -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, Betta tail, can you tell me what you used for the two *Parker H3* build you did?It had two silver DICI bubble counter, forgot what else.
> 
> Also, can one remove the Vernier handle from the H3? I remember reading that you can remove it to prevent tempering.
> 
> And how in the world did this guy get 400 dollars metering valves? Hope he giving you commission, he sold 3 today, one of which was to me.
> 
> Finally, isn't this a bit over kill? Once you get to 1 or 2 bps, shouldn't the cheap retail needle valves be enough? I don't think someone would need 0.3 or 1.3 bps, right? I mean, look at those paintball guys. They're using this -


the second one looks interesting, but I checked circle seal control, couldn't find anything, probably they made it in the past.

don't remove the vernier handle from the H3L, no need to, I took apart a H3L to the very single part, and regret after I put everything back, messed up the orifice, needle stem got stuck and it was ruined. 

I don't know which system you refer to, the Airproduct stainless steel?
here is the parts, in gas flow order:
co2 tank
CGA320, SS.
Airproducts stainless steel regulator
1/4 npt male to 1/8 npt male stainless steel hex reducer
Burkert stainless steel 2822 solenoid
1/8 npt all male Tee, stainless steel
and two H3L metering valve
1/8 npt male to 1/8 npt male elbow, stainless steel, 2 of them
the bubble counters.


----------



## FlyingHellFish

^ Yes, that the beauty I was talking about.

1/8 npt all male Tee, stainless steel - Alright got it, thanks. 

Quick question, out of all the custom regulators being sold, not just you, what do you think the most popular is? Would it be the 0 - 60 working pressure ones , so basically the ones with max working pressure of 30 or 50 psi.

Or would it be the one that go from max working pressure of more than that, say 100 max.


----------



## oldpunk78

No one ever really specifies for me. Although I don't make any that only go below 30psi.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

oldpunk78 said:


> No one ever really specifies for me. Although I don't make any that only go below 30psi.


Hi oldpunk78,

Interesting; I typically run about 22 PSI on my split system (1 CO2 tank/1 regulator/2 needle valves/2 aquariums). Is there an advantage to running at a higher PSI assuming you are already achieving an adequate PPM of CO2 at a lower operating pressure?


----------



## oldpunk78

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi oldpunk78,
> 
> Interesting; I typically run about 22 PSI on my split system (1 CO2 tank/1 regulator/2 needle valves/2 aquariums). Is there an advantage to running at a higher PSI assuming you are already achieving an adequate PPM of CO2 at a lower operating pressure?


The reason I try to find regulators that are capable of delivering more than 30psi is because I don't gennarly know what type of diffuser folks want to run. sometimes you need in excess of 30psi to get an atomizer crack.


----------



## FlyingHellFish

To Seattle Aquarist - Not really, if you're getting enough Co2 then your working pressure is fine. If you end up deciding to do more tanks with some atomizer then you would run into problems. 


I ask this question because I'm getting conflicted answers. Some say you can control the bps with a lower psi while others claim you will do fine with a higher psi and a good metering valve. The regulators you buy will all look the same (same series, model) so you have to take note of the working pressure gauge. 

I find that the ones that are lower ( 0 - 60 ) are cheaper then the higher up models. You can end up with two models that look exactly the same but if one of them is able to do 100 psi, you would want that regulator for upgrades in the future. 

Some of the custom systems that are build are max 30 - 45 psi and if someone doesn't know, they can be stuck with a regulator that can only power 1 atomizer. Then what you have is a custom build expensive regulator that can not do what a cheap retail regulator (preset 30 - 50 psi) can do. 

So I wonder why people prefer the lower pressure and higher grade metering valve, it seem like over kill for our purpose. Would 1.5 bps be any difference to 1.3 bps? 

But then again, at 30 dollars that Parker H3 is too good to pass up, even if it does look hideous.


----------



## eatfood

I think the Parker H3 looks awesome


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## FlyingHellFish

eatfood said:


> I think the Parker H3 looks awesome


Nice try, seller of Parker H3. :red_mouth


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## eatfood

ha ha - I do not sell anything, I just think they look cool (it is also the metering valve I recently purchased for my new setup)


----------



## FlyingHellFish

^ I know, it was a joke. The handle is too fat for my taste but some people like that. The only set up where it looks good is if you do two. Now I got to buy another one, hopefully the guy didn't ship yet.


----------



## oldpunk78

I personally think the big turn counter is pretty cool. I'd prefer it be the angle version but beggers can't be choosers... 

I wonder if there's a regular veneire handle available? That would be less huge looking.


----------



## eatfood

FlyingHellFish said:


> ^ I know, it was a joke. The handle is too fat for my taste but some people like that. The only set up where it looks good is if you do two. Now I got to buy another one, hopefully the guy didn't ship yet.


  
the double does look pretty cool


----------



## FlyingHellFish

oldpunk78 said:


> I personally think the big turn counter is pretty cool. I'd prefer it be the angle version but beggers can't be choosers...
> 
> I wonder if there's a regular veneire handle available? That would be less huge looking.


The price is just ridiculous, I mean, they sell the normal needle valve (the one that on every retail kit) at 14.99 and that chrome brass and is way-way smaller.This guy must of jacked a Parker trailer or something. Sadly, the item is already ship, one is good enough. When I get it, I'll try to make a comparison between it and the cheapo needle valve on the same Co2 line.

Also, I know the pdf does state that you can remove the handle to prevent tampering, but I think I'm just leave the handle on.


----------



## OVT

H3 comes with a manual and step-by-step instructions for various levels of dis-assembly - taking off the handle takes a second. Other parts are a bit more complicated.


----------



## Bettatail

OVT said:


> H3 comes with a manual and step-by-step instructions for various levels of dis-assembly - taking off the handle takes a second. Other parts are a bit more complicated.


Like your signature,


----------



## Bettatail

To everyone who pm me the last three days, will get the answer by tomorrow morning....
Haven't loggined the last three days, errr, pm box bombarded, will answer each question, no sleep until sun rise anyway, so plenty of time.


----------



## Bettatail

First, solenoid, the low wattage, working pressure and right size connection ports are what needs to be kept in mind when you are looking for one.
Second, after burkert 2822 all gone, there is no such SS burkert solenoids fall in the range for our CO2 system on eee-bay. 
Third, who pm'ed me looking for a solenoid, expect good news because I know what's available on eee-bay.

add:
for Third, good news is not that good, found only three type 300 Burkert solenoids on eee-bay, 4 watts power consumption is ok but price not attractive. 
The type 300 burkert solenoid is old model, most people searching for 6011, but didn't know the type 300 solenoids exist. 
and there is type 200 too....


----------



## Bettatail

All pms answered, :bounce:

In the picture is the stainless steel type 200, the first one from the left.




















To wire, any Din connector Form B, (or burkert part number 2507), and a computer power cable.


----------



## Bettatail

planning on a new stand for the 168G, but hurt my back even before the project start, 
now laying on the bed checking fish tank stand design.....:icon_sad:


----------



## FlyingHellFish

^ 168G? 

I'm pretty sure you can just say it's 170 G tank. What are you planning for it? Might I recommend a 12 oz paintball set up? Or better yet!, buy a Fluval Mini Co2 system, I hear they are great!


----------



## Bettatail

it is a stand for the fish tank that I am sketching on paper right now, and thanks for the recommendation, I've got a 15lb co2 tank for the fish tank, lol.


my back hurt, still need to move 2X4s, sucks.
worse after the stand is built, need to move the fish tank....:icon_sad:


----------



## FlyingHellFish

Did you buy the stand or built it yourself? I been hearing how easy a ADA knock off stand for small tanks are, seem pretty straight forward. But with a 170 g tank, good luck. That a whole another project on it's own. 

How heavy is your 15 lb co2 when full? Do you have to bring a friend to carry that? I used to think 5 lb were a bitch to carry around.


----------



## creekbottom

Bettatail said:


> To wire, any Din connector Form B, (or burkert part number 2507), and a computer power cable.


That is what I'm trying to wire right now. However... I don't know which post is positive or negative. They are only labelled 1 and 2. The ground is clearly labelled.

Which one is which?


----------



## Darkblade48

This is the Burkert? I am pretty sure polarity does not matter for AC solenoids. 

However, if you want to be consistent, the left prong of a power cord is neutral (white), the right prong is live (black), and the bottom prong is ground (green).


----------



## Bettatail

200901483511

the bay


----------



## Bettatail

FlyingHellFish said:


> Did you buy the stand or built it yourself? I been hearing how easy a ADA knock off stand for small tanks are, seem pretty straight forward. But with a 170 g tank, good luck. That a whole another project on it's own.
> 
> How heavy is your 15 lb co2 when full? Do you have to bring a friend to carry that? I used to think 5 lb were a bitch to carry around.


building the stand myself, and the 15lb co2 tank is ok to carry, not that heavy, about 30-40lb, I believe. I used to run around like a chicken with my 170LB sergeant fireman carried on my shoulder, I was 155lb at the time though. Can't do that anymore, I would end up laying in bed for months if get my back hurt again.

here are pictures of the unfinished project.
the fish tank behind the stand is a 55G, will be the new sump.


----------



## Bettatail

Darkblade48 said:


> This is the Burkert? I am pretty sure polarity does not matter for AC solenoids.
> 
> However, if you want to be consistent, the left prong of a power cord is neutral (white), the right prong is live (black), and the bottom prong is ground (green).


+1, agree, AC Unit not really matter the hot or cold, but usually the hot side(black) is on the right when the ground prong is at the bottom. (Hot on the left if the ground prong is above the parallel prongs)


----------



## willygog

Hi, im not sure what i need to do, but i have a standard co2 20lb tank, and it has a regulator and valve, but its not able to meter 1-2 bps, it can but its not stable. I am guessing that is the reason for the change.. are any of these valves still around, im not sure what i should use.. is the reg i have even worth changing over.. it was designed for .5cfm i beleive.. i can take a picture to go with this post if needed.. i know something isnt right but know nothing of this, i think even if i had the parts it would be difficult for me to put the parts in order..

will this valve work for me? 2F-H3L-V-SS-TC


----------



## willygog

ok i also found one of these would it be a better solenoid than standard solenoid on say any co2 regulator, and if not what makes this better? Burkert 2 Way Valve 1/4" Npt 211 211-NC-F-E-U24 Stainless 0-140 Psi


----------



## Darkblade48

willygog said:


> Hi, im not sure what i need to do, but i have a standard co2 20lb tank, and it has a regulator and valve, but its not able to meter 1-2 bps, it can but its not stable. I am guessing that is the reason for the change.. are any of these valves still around, im not sure what i should use..


Sounds like you need a better needle/metering valve. It could also be your working pressure on your regulator (what is it set at?).



willygog said:


> is the reg i have even worth changing over.. it was designed for .5cfm i beleive.. i can take a picture to go with this post if needed.. i know something isnt right but know nothing of this, i think even if i had the parts it would be difficult for me to put the parts in order..


A photo would be helpful, but it also sounds like your pressure gauges are not measuring units that have much meaning in our hobby. CFM is a measurement of flow, so it is difficult to ascertain anything. I would suggest replacing the gauges with ones that measure in pressure units (either the non-standard PSI/bar or the SI kPa).



willygog said:


> will this valve work for me? 2F-H3L-V-SS-TC


That looks like the Parker H3L metering valve; it will work. Many people are using it.



willygog said:


> ok i also found one of these would it be a better solenoid than standard solenoid on say any co2 regulator, and if not what makes this better? Burkert 2 Way Valve 1/4" Npt 211 211-NC-F-E-U24 Stainless 0-140 Psi


I do not believe anyone has used that solenoid. In addition, note that it requires 208V for usage (which is quite unusual).


----------



## willygog

hello and thanks for the advice, yes the regulator isnt really for this type of application., it has a guage to show if its full or not.. then it has the metering valve which is a ball in a glass tube.. and it starts at .5cfm.. i guess i was just trying to find a less expensive way than a new regulator.. 
I'll see if there is anyone selling one on the trading post..


----------



## Darkblade48

willygog said:


> hello and thanks for the advice, yes the regulator isnt really for this type of application., it has a guage to show if its full or not.. then it has the metering valve which is a ball in a glass tube.. and it starts at .5cfm.. i guess i was just trying to find a less expensive way than a new regulator..
> I'll see if there is anyone selling one on the trading post..


What you described is not a metering valve, but a flow valve. This is not suitable for our purposes, as it will not afford the fine control that is required.

It sounds like you need to purchase a needle/metering valve in addition to replacing the gauge on your regulator.


----------



## willygog

i am going to bite the bullet, with starting from bare reg it isnt a cost saver ,, I was able to find a suitable one to get, its the Milwaukee MA957 with bubble counter ...100. to the door.. That good enough for a beginners unit?


----------



## willygog

Hi, well i didnt buy a pre made unit after all, i found a ss-ss2 swagelok valve, and an aquatech regulator, i have it all plumed in but i found an interesting thing, right from the start this thing is puttin out 1 bps turned off, is there a way to reseat it , or what would the advice be.. i have it all done, no leaks, looks great but looks dont count.. soooo what can i do.. line pressure is preset from aquatech at 60psi.. is that a problem, i have another regulator unit that does have adjustment but i liked the looks of the aquatech .. help


----------



## oldpunk78

Swagelok factory sets those things there. It can go down lower, you just need to be careful not to close the valve with the needle or you might break it off. 

All you have to do is loosen the larger allen and pull the handle out a little.


----------



## willygog

hmm ok i'll see if i can figure that out...lol
thanks, i'll let ya know if it worked out ok or not


----------



## willygog

worked fine thanks again,,


----------



## Bettatail

willygog said:


> worked fine thanks again,,


a little bit late to check your questions, and glad that both darkblade and oldpunk provided help and you got it taken care.

anyway, here is some instruction pictures, others who have the same question will have good idea how to adjust the metering handle.


----------



## mwuf15

Is the ss-4bmg valve any good?


----------



## Bettatail

mwuf15 said:


> Is the ss-4bmg valve any good?


answered.


----------



## ROOTBEER

Bettatail said:


> Post this just want to give some more options on choosing the right metering valves for our DIY CO2 rig build.
> please post a picture of the metering valve if you are the lucky guy have one of the valves from the bottom of the list.
> 
> also in this thread.
> ***Solenoid valves selection
> ***Adjust bubble rate.
> 
> 
> 
> Metering/needle vales, Cv (flow coefficient) under 0.1 only
> 
> 
> *Swagelok 20 series needle valve*, soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-20R*
> Orifice: 0.08"
> Cv: 0.09 (at 2.5 turn full open)
> 
> *Swagelok O series needle valve*, soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-OR*
> Orifice: 0.08"
> Cv: 0.09 (at 8 turn full open)
> 
> *Pneumadyne (Pneumatic Control System), 700 series needle valve*, Part number: C070301/C070501/C070601, made in UK
> Thanks to *kevmo911*, who shine the light on this 700 series needle valve and present the .pdf data
> Orifice: N/A
> Cv: 0.09 (at 12 turn full open)
> 
> *SMC AS2000 series needle valve*, Part number: AS2???-*
> Orifice: N/A
> Cv: N/A ( At 4 turn SCFM is 0.88 SCFM, after 4 turn flow rate spike)
> 
> *Clippard MNV-3/4 series needle valve*, part number MNV-3* , MNV-4*
> Orifice: 0.07"(MNV-3), 0.067"(MNV-4)
> Cv: N/A (at 4 turn SCFM is 1, Cv is under 0.03 before 4 turns, after 4 turns, Cv spike)
> owned
> 
> *Ideal valve 52(brass)/54(stainless steel)--2 series*, Part number 52-2-*, 54-2-*
> Orifice: 0.0625"
> Cv: 0.082 (at 20 turn, 22-24 turn full open)
> 
> *Hoke 2300 series metering valve*, 8 degree angle stem
> Orifice: 0.062"
> Cv: 0.075 (at 20 turn full open)
> owned
> 
> *Parker Hannifin NM series*, Part number *-NM?-*-*-*-*
> Orifice: N/A
> Cv: 0.055 (at 14 turn full open)
> 
> *Fabco NV55/FC55 needle valve*, Part number NV-55, NV-55-18, FC-55
> Orifice: N/A
> Cv: N/A (approximately at 0.04, The SCFM is 1.7 at 10 turn full open, similar to swagelok 31 series)
> 
> *SMC AS1000 Series needle valve*, Part number AS120?-*
> Orifice: N/A
> Cv: N/A (approximately at 2.83 SCFM at 10 turn, but the flow curve is concaved, at 4.5 turn is 0.71 SCFM compare to NV-55 which is 0.95+ SCFM at 4.5 turn.
> owned
> 
> *Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 5*, Part number: *-H5?-*-*-*
> Orifice:N/A
> Cv: 0.049 (at 15 turn full open)
> 
> *Parker Hannifin NS series*, Part number *-NS?-*-*-*
> Orifice: N/A
> Cv: 0.042 (at 14 turn full open)
> 
> *Swagelok 31 series metering valve*, Part number SS(B)-31R*(tested, orifice is too big at low turn)
> Orifice: 0.062"
> Cv: 0.04 (at 10 turn full open)
> owned
> 
> *Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 4*, Part number: *-H4?-*-*-*
> Orifice:N/A
> Cv: 0.032 (at 15 turn full open)
> 
> *Swagelok Belows-sealed metering valve*, Part number SS-4BMG, SS-4BMW(weld port)
> Orifice: N/A
> Cv: 0.019 (at 6 turn full open)
> (Tested, Orifice is too big, at low turn doesn't work well)
> owned
> 
> *Swagelok M series metering valve*, Part number SS(B)-?MG*, SS(B)-?MA*
> Orifice: 0.056"
> Cv: 0.03 (at 9 turn full open)
> double pattern, dual handle
> Cv: 0.026 ( at 9 turn full open)
> owned
> 
> *Ham-Let HF1300 series* metering valve, 3 degree stem angle, Part number HF13??-*-*
> Orifice: 0.055"
> Cv: 0.03 (at 11 turn full open)
> 
> *Fujikin UN series *metering valve, L mark on top of the vernier handle, made in Japan
> Orifice: 1.8MM
> Cv: 0.03 (at 14 turn full open)
> owned
> 
> *Hoke Millimite 1300 series metering vale*, 3 degree angle stem.
> Orifice: 0.047"
> Cv: 0.024 ( at 18 turn full open)
> 
> *Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 3*, Part number: *-H3?-*-*-*
> Orifice:N/A
> Cv: 0.021 (at 15 turn full open)
> 
> *Fujikin High Pressure series *metering valve, Part number: N/A, made in Japan
> Orifice: 1.6MM
> Cv: 0.017 (at 12 turn full open)
> 
> *Fujikin UN/DUN series *metering valve, made in Japan
> Orifice: 1.5MM
> Cv: 0.015 (at 14 turn full open)
> 
> *Ideal valve 52(brass)/54(stainless steel)--1 series*, Part number 52-1-*, 54-1-*
> Orifice: 0.0313"
> Cv: 0.019 (at 20 turn, 22-24 turn full open, approximate Cv 0.008 -0.009 at 10 turn)
> 
> *Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 2*, Part number: *-H2?-*-*-*
> Orifice:N/A
> Cv: 0.014 (at 15 turn full open)
> 
> *Swagelok 21/22 series metering valve*, Part number: *-21???-*, *-22???-*,
> These are the mystery discontinued swagelok precision low flow control valve, and thanks to *kevmo911*, who shine the light on the 21/22 series and present the .pdf data.
> Orifice: 0.02"
> Cv: 0.007 (at 8 turn full open)
> owned(TESTED! Due to the small orifice and long needle stem of this valve, the actual CV/turn and flow rate at low turn is a real small number, 0.1 bubble adjustment is possible on JBJ bubble counter)
> Kevmo911 is the hero to bring this metering valve back to life...
> 
> *Hoke Millimite 1300 series metering vale*, 1 degree angle stem.
> Orifice: 0.047"
> Cv: 0.011 ( at 18 turn full open)
> owned
> 
> *Hoke 2300 series metering valve*, 1 degree angle stem
> Orifice: 0.062"
> Cv: 0.01 (at 20 turn full open )
> 
> *Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 1*, Part number: *-H1?-*-*-*
> Orifice:N/A
> Cv: 0.007 (at 15 turn full open)
> 
> *Fujikin PUN series *metering valve, made in Japan
> Orifice: N/AMM
> Cv: 0.004 (at 10 turn full open)
> 
> *Swagelok S series metering valve*, Part number SS(B)-SS* , SS(B)-SM*
> Orifice: 0.032"
> Cv: 0.004 (at 10 turn full open)
> double pattern, dual handles
> Cv: 0.001 ( at 10 turn full open)
> owned
> 
> *Ham-Let HXF1300 series* metering valve, 1 degree stem angle, Part number HXF13??-*-*
> Orifice: 0.03"
> Cv: 0.004 (at 11 turn full open)
> 
> *Hoke Micromite 1600 series metering valve*.
> Orifice: 0.031"
> Cv: 0.0008 (at 18 turn full open)
> owned
> 
> *Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 0*, Part number: *-H0?-*-*-*
> Orifice:N/A
> Cv: 0.0004 (at 15 turn full open)
> 
> *Chell Ultra-Fine Mechanism Needle Valve*, needle 1 model, Made in UK
> Orifice: N/A
> Cv: N/A
> (The lowest flow rate valve I know, for our application. 20 turn full open. Max flow rate is 20 SCCM(standard cubic centimeter per minute), which is 0.02 liter per minute at full open, 145psi pressure differential. Listed price: $500+, manufacture handling/shipping: $115, Total cost to get it in the us $600+.)
> owned.
> 
> Vacoa valve
> 0-1.8CC, the spaceship valve, flow rate too low, not for our fish tank.
> 
> (On going, next : Aalborg. )
> 
> 
> Please let me know if you see any other metering valves that not here and can be used in our DIY CO2 pressurized system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what solenoid do you want to use?
> 
> Clippard solenoid(MME-2SDS-*), and Burkert 6011 solenoid are the most commonly seen in our application, they are 1/8" NPT ports and ready to fit pipe fittings.
> but they are 6.5 watt and 4 watt power consumption and create a lot of heat for 8 hours on, also, the fluid media(CO2) flow is never fast enough to draw away the heat. The heat, creates core melting, metal(spring) fatigue, cracked O-ring problems, and shorten the lives of these valves.
> Burkert is a tag better because it is 4 watt and create less heat than a Clippard(MME-2SDS-*).
> Parker Skinner B series 1/8" NPT ports solenoid valves(6 watt, 7 watt) are not that common, but actually better, because they are full metal body, faster heat dispatch than the said Clippard and the Burkert.
> Parker Skinner C series solenoid valves are even better, 1/8" NPT ports, full metal body and only 2 or 3 watt power consumption, but hard to find one.
> The clippard mouse solenoid is the best I know so far, only 0.67 watt power consumption and designed for low flow applications(that is our setups), 1 billion official on/off cycle life, full metal body, doesn't even feel warm when operate. But this valve is not 1/8" NPT ports ready, need adapters or sometimes, need some metal working to make them connect to pipe fittings.
> 
> *These solenoid valve are all high quality industrial valves*, they all have on/off cycle lives that is not less than 100 million. Failed solenoid are commonly seem in our applications because the way we use it, for at least 7 hours on and the fluid is not be able to take away the heat. Constantly heated/overheated condition shorten the lives of solenoid valves and fail them.
> So whichever creates less heat(less power consumption) wins.
> 
> 
> How to adjust the bubble rate.
> For no pressure in the post body system start up.
> 1. set the output pressure of the regulator at 30-50 psi.
> 2. close all needle valves, turn on the solenoid.
> 3. open the needle valve, slowly, monitor the bubble rate, every time you turn the needle valve, wait 20 seconds or longer, depends on how long the tubing from the needle valve to the diffuser, the longer the tubing, the longer time you need to wait. stop when the desire bubble rate reach.
> 4. (this step omitted if using a reactor-no backward pressure)wait until the diffuser starts cracking out bubbles, then wait 20 minutes.
> 5. Adjust the needle valve again, 20 seconds or longer waiting time each time you turn the needle valve, once the desire bubble rate reach, stop.
> 6. let the system run for half an hour.
> 7A. if there is no change of bubble rate after half an hour, you can lock the locking handle of the needle valve(for SMC AS1200 needle valve), and it is all done.
> 7B. if there is no signification change of the bubble rate, repeat step 5 and 6.
> 7C. if there is significant change of the bubble rate after half an hour, use soapy water leak check the system, from the outlet of the regulator to the diffuser(if no leak, what is the needle valve you use?)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> *The Metering(Needle) Valve Selection for CO2 Pressurized System*
> *Complete Leak check, Double Stage Regulator Pressurized system*


 

can I buy this valvs from you??


----------



## ROOTBEER

Bettatail said:


> The vernier handle is the best I've seen so far, with Turn Counter.
> and the orifice of this valve is off scale, really small. Small orifice and low CV, the actual flow rate is suppose to be really small, but need to test it, which haven't done yet.


 
where can I get this valv? this looks exakly what I am loking for ,, can this also controll liquid ?


----------



## oldpunk78

ROOTBEER said:


> where can I get this valv? this looks exakly what I am loking for ,, can this also controll liquid ?


Search for 'parker metering valve' on fleabay. You're looking for a h3.


----------



## pwu_1

Bettatail said:


> Tested! now I am settle with the metering valve for my personal co2 system.
> 
> Takes too much turn to increase/decrease the bubble rate, miss the swagelok S series which is fast and accurate to set the bubbles. lol.
> There is a problem of this metering valve though: like the Parker hannifin H2A, H3L, the brooks NRS needs higher pressure differential.
> They all have the extremely small orifice and longer orifice passage(tube), so water/oil/dust can easily settled in the passage and clog the valve if the pressure differential is low. Higher pressure differential, water/oil/dust can easily be pushed through, so better to set the regulator output with higher pressure.
> 
> also, due to small orifice, need particle filters, the manual recommend a 2 micron particle filter:icon_eek:
> I guess a 7 micron particle filter is sufficient because the flow rate is about 1-2 sccm (1 bubble/second). Orifice is big enough for the 7 micron particles to pass through.


Hi bettatail, I'm trying to put together a budget friendly co2 setup. Could only find these Brooks NRS series valves at the price that I can afford.
I'm actually not even sure which version I'm getting since the ebay listing wasn't very clear. Guess I'll know when it gets here. Anyways, in your opinion, other than having to turn it many turns to get the desired bubble count(this is probably dependent on which version I get right? since you got the most precise version), if I set my output pressure to say 40psi, the needle valve should work fine right? Or should I set my output pressure higher?
Thanks for all the info btw. It was very helpful


----------



## FlyingHellFish

Wait a min, you're suppose to use a filter for these parkers? Where does one even go in these things?

2 micron particle filter? 

uhhhhhh? 

BettaTails, where art thou?


----------



## Bettatail

Updated:
All Parker HR Series valves, the valve cartridge and the valve body are inter-changeable.


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## Seadon

Hey Betta, maybe you can help me understand something about the ideal 52-2-14 metering valve and the 52-1-x, I was told that the one you want is the 52-1-x due to the longer taper or the needle and larger orifice, the person who told me this said that unless you have a large tank, 120+gallons, you would have to run the 52-2 series almost completely closed. Is this true? I know there is some truth to what they are saying, the needle taper is finer and the orifice is 1/32" as opposed to 1/16", but does it really make it unuseable for a sub 100G tank? I have a 52-2-14 and I want to put it on my 29 gallon tank, is this practical? Thank you, and your posts have been immensely helpful in my understanding of pressurized gas setups.:help:


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## Bettatail

the ideal 2 series is ok, there is no problem to adjust the low bubble rate.


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## AlanLe

Seadon said:


> Hey Betta, maybe you can help me understand something about the ideal 52-2-14 metering valve and the 52-1-x, I was told that the one you want is the 52-1-x due to the longer taper or the needle and larger orifice, the person who told me this said that unless you have a large tank, 120+gallons, you would have to run the 52-2 series almost completely closed. Is this true? I know there is some truth to what they are saying, the needle taper is finer and the orifice is 1/32" as opposed to 1/16", but does it really make it unuseable for a sub 100G tank? I have a 52-2-14 and I want to put it on my 29 gallon tank, is this practical? Thank you, and your posts have been immensely helpful in my understanding of pressurized gas setups.:help:


You can run a 52-2 on a 10 gl. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Seadon

Cool, thanks, also I was wondering about the Chell ultra fine valves, are the for really small tanks or do they just give you a very accurate degree of control and can be used in large tanks, say 75-125 gallon?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AaronT

AlanLe said:


> You can run a 52-2 on a 10 gl.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


+1 I used the exact same needle valve for 5 years on tanks as small as 10 gallons. It takes smaller adjustments than the 1 series for sure, but it works just fine.


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## newbieplanter

Cool


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## Bettatail

caution! something similar appear!


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## AlanLe

the h0. it's too expensive. 1/8 tube fitting. all we are doing is raising the price. seller will profit.


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## FlyingHellFish

What metering valve is it? I got a friend who needs one for his build, the 2 Hoke I brought never came (you guys know where that thread is) so now I'm stuck here trying to get my friend a metering valve so he won't end up with a fabco....


If it's the Parker H3 and below.... omg!


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## OVT

Which reminds me, I am overdue on my PM to bettatail.

v3


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## quark

I'm using a Clippard MNV-4 needle valve on my Atomic Co2 regulator that has a fixed working PSI of around 30psi (that's what it levels out to after a while). I can't seem to reliably adjust my Bubbles down to 1 bps. After a few days, I have to re-adjust the needle valve. I'm only about 1/8 to 1/4 turn out from Fully closed. Interestingly, adjusting the needle valve requires me to crank it open a bit, close it, and crank it open again. Going back to about the same needle position.

I was thinking of switching to a fabco nv55 but based on specs, It might be the same. Am I doing something wrong? or is there something out there that will not fluctuate as much. I've run other MNV-4 on about 20-30psi, but at a faster bubbles per seconds on larger tanks, seemed fine, I'm currently using this setup on a nano, about 3.5 gallons with an external reactor, so I don't need that many BPS. Any recommendations that doesn't exceed $60? and is readily available?


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## Milligreen

oldpunk78 said:


> I don't believe many of us have any idea what would work when just searching around on [Ebay Link Removed] You're probably not going to see anyone posting up their Hoke or Parker. I think my favorite not so common valve is the Swagelok 'S' series. It's kinda like a smaller version of the Ideal valve.
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen anybody else using this one: (my personal reg)


Hey.. what happen to the pic? Your inbox is full too.
Think i found one just like it, trying to compare. payed 100 don't know if i over payed.. It does look brand new.


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## Hilde

Would this needle valve by 



 work on a paintball Co2 tank? It has 1/4" Male NPT x 1/4" Male NPT Connection Size, and holds pressure up to 6000 psi.


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## Darkblade48

Hilde said:


> Would this needle valve by PIC work on a paintball Co2 tank? It has 1/4" Male NPT x 1/4" Male NPT Connection Size, and holds pressure up to 6000 psi.


Without more details, it is hard to be sure, but from what you have provided, most likely not.

A hint is that the needle valve can work at 6000 PSI, which would indicate that it is not really precise enough for our purposes. Also, 6000 PSI seems to be ridiculous; are you sure it was not 60 PSI?


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## jeffkrol

Hilde said:


> Would this needle valve by PIC work on a paintball Co2 tank? It has 1/4" Male NPT x 1/4" Male NPT Connection Size, and holds pressure up to 6000 psi.


Cheap (???) Chinese needle valve. I don't know of any opinions good or bad on them.. Personally stick w/ "name brand".
A Fabco is good enough w/out getting too fancy.



Darkblade48 said:


> Without more details, it is hard to be sure, but from what you have provided, most likely not.
> 
> A hint is that the needle valve can work at 6000 PSI, which would indicate that it is not really precise enough for our purposes. Also, 6000 PSI seems to be ridiculous; are you sure it was not 60 PSI?


most regulating valves are rated high 3000psi plus for operating range..
Hoke 1300's are rated at 3000psi brass 5000psi stainless steel
http://catalog.hoke.com/Asset/Metering-Valves-Catalog-79013ENG.pdf


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## Hilde

Darkblade48 said:


> Without more details, it is hard to be sure, but from what you have provided, most likely not.
> 
> A hint is that the needle valve can work at 6000 PSI, which would indicate that it is not really precise enough for our purposes. Also, 6000 PSI seems to be ridiculous; are you sure it was not 60 PSI?


I thought 6000 PSI was good. Thought that the higher the better. I don't understand these valves and can't find any info to make sense of the numbers. Numbers such as for* Swagelok 20 series needle valve*, soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-20R* Orifice: 0.08" Cv: 0.09 (at 2.5 turn full open)

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> most regulating valves are rated high 3000psi plus for operating range..
> Hoke 1300's are rated at 3000psi brass 5000psi stainless steel
> http://catalog.hoke.com/Asset/Metering-Valves-Catalog-79013ENG.pdf


I can't make sense of the info at that link. I googled for explanation of the numbers with no results. Can someone supply a link that explains the numbers?


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## FlyingHellFish

*Making sense of the numbers*:

Small Cv = This tells you the rate of flow for the valve.... 
Small Orifice = The size of the hole that the media flows through....
Handle turns = The amount of turns the valve has....

*The handle itself* = Easier to turn, torque, turn counter

No worries Hilde, we all have to start somewhere.


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## Dead2fall

Hilde said:


> Swagelok 20 series needle valve[/B], soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-20R*


SS = Stainless Steel or 
B = Brass
(The parentheses are telling you it will be SS or B) 

20 = the model (not sure what the R denotes) 

* = Connection style/size. The asterisk will be a combination of a letter and a number. 
S- tube fitting 
F- female connection 
A number will follow the S or F. It denotes the size of the connection. 
The only ones that really concern us are:
4- 1/4"
2- 1/8"
So for instance, SS-21RS4 would be a stainless 21 series with a 1/4" tube connection. B-31RF2 would be a brass 31 series with a 1/8" female connection. Keep in mind that is only the breakdown for that type of part number.


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## jeffkrol

Hilde said:


> Bump:
> I can't make sense of the info at that link. I googled for explanation of the numbers with no results. Can someone supply a link that explains the numbers?


you will get used to it.. I did....


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## Hilde

Read at a thread that a needle valve 1300 series a 1 degree needle is better than a 3 degree needle. 

What does this mean?


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## oldpunk78

Less bubble action per movement of the handle.


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## Hilde

oldpunk78 said:


> Less bubble action per movement of the handle.


Uncertain what that means. Is that with the 1 degree or 3 degree? Don't you want more bubble action to get Co2 gas?


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## Mathman

What's up folks! It's been awhile since I've posted any of my units. Anyways, enjoy...



























































































Cristian


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## AlanLe

Mathman said:


> What's up folks! It's been awhile since I've posted any of my units. Anyways, enjoy...
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Looking good! Find another white cord. H3 metering valves are a keeper.


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## Mathman

I've got plenty of white cords. Went with black and white in case I ever need to deferentiate


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## oldpunk78

Hilde said:


> Uncertain what that means. Is that with the 1 degree or 3 degree? Don't you want more bubble action to get Co2 gas?


Bettatail was just saying that one valve was better than the other. Better meaning more control over how you adjust your flow rate (bubble count).


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## Hilde

I bought a Swagelok B-1VS4. Anybody using it? Pros, Cons?


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## mrbman7

*Any sellers?*

Sorry to resurrect this from the depths...

Just getting back into planted tanks after a long hiatus and I want to upgrade my cheap-o Clippard valve. Fleabay seems to be coming up short for metering valves that don't cost a fortune. Is anyone selling these valves on the forum I can contact? Looking for a nice quality Parker or something similar.

Thanks!


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## dogwood

Does tank size make any difference in determining selection of a metering valve for a CO2 system. If so, on what basis would you make a differentiation for suitability. I am setting up a 125 gallon tank. Bettatail's list of metering valves here is a great resource. 

Mike


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## Dead2fall

dogwood said:


> Does tank size make any difference in determining selection of a metering valve for a CO2 system. If so, on what basis would you make a differentiation for suitability. I am setting up a 125 gallon tank. Bettatail's list of metering valves here is a great resource.
> 
> Mike


Nope. 

Sent from my HTC331ZLVW using Tapatalk


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## Simpsoid

So I have a Parker H3 valve (with the nice graded handle) and it has been playing up. I'm wondering whether someone with some experience with these may be able to help.

It doesn't seem to keep its seeing and sometimes will get "blocked" and won't let gas through at all. It also rattles occasionally.

So the settings bit is that it used to have the ideal flow on the handle measurement of 55. Now it requires a setting of 75 to get the same sort of bubble count.

With the blockage, when my solenoid kicks on someone's no bubbles get through the valve and it requires a micro adjust, like a turn of 2 or 3 measurement units, to get it to flow again.

And sometimes it rattles (sort of like a clicking noise) too. When it does this it often stops and starts letting bubbles through and only stops talking if I do a micro adjust as above.

I thought something might have been blocking the needle, that I could repair, so I opened it up and the internal mechanism is not what I was expecting, like a little plunger drum. I didn't touch it at all apart from shaking and blowing on it to see if anything would fall out.

Can anyone give me any advice on what to try? Because it is fluctuating so much it isn't delivering reliable CO2 to my tank and I'm having issues with algae. One day it'll be fine, the next it won't work at all.

Pressure is set to 35psi on my regulator and it's going to a ceramic diffuser before pulling through a jebo UV filter which sort of acts like a reactor. Thanks.


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## lksdrinker

Simpsoid said:


> So I have a Parker H3 valve (with the nice graded handle) and it has been playing up. I'm wondering whether someone with some experience with these may be able to help.
> 
> It doesn't seem to keep its seeing and sometimes will get "blocked" and won't let gas through at all. It also rattles occasionally.
> 
> So the settings bit is that it used to have the ideal flow on the handle measurement of 55. Now it requires a setting of 75 to get the same sort of bubble count.
> 
> With the blockage, when my solenoid kicks on someone's no bubbles get through the valve and it requires a micro adjust, like a turn of 2 or 3 measurement units, to get it to flow again.
> 
> And sometimes it rattles (sort of like a clicking noise) too. When it does this it often stops and starts letting bubbles through and only stops talking if I do a micro adjust as above.
> 
> I thought something might have been blocking the needle, that I could repair, so I opened it up and the internal mechanism is not what I was expecting, like a little plunger drum. I didn't touch it at all apart from shaking and blowing on it to see if anything would fall out.
> 
> Can anyone give me any advice on what to try? Because it is fluctuating so much it isn't delivering reliable CO2 to my tank and I'm having issues with algae. One day it'll be fine, the next it won't work at all.
> 
> Pressure is set to 35psi on my regulator and it's going to a ceramic diffuser before pulling through a jebo UV filter which sort of acts like a reactor. Thanks.


If you didnt find any blockage in the needle valve (which can typically be solved by running it wide open for a bit), my next step would be to check for blockages elsewhere up stream likely in the regulator. If that checks out, then I'd be checking for leaks somewhere upstream as well. 

the noise you're hearing is interesting though and brings my thoughts back to a blockage of some sort. I dont think the needle valves can really break so long as you dont try to use it as a shut off valve and actually damage the needle.


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## AlanLe

Make sure your solenoid is installed correctly (inlet vs outlet). Also check your check valve to see if it's not installed backward. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol

lksdrinker said:


> I dont think the needle valves can really break so long as you dont try to use it as a shut off valve and actually damage the needle.


Somewhere here someone mentioned getting some swaqlok (I think) freak bay valves w/ broken needles..broke tips.
seemed unlikely but I'm only the messenger..

Nothing should "rattle" in either a metering nor solenoid valve AFAICT..........


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## Simpsoid

I'll try to capture a video of it. The rattling is definitely the Parker valve. And they are a type that does allow it to be fully closed. The solenoid is somewhat an issue (crushed o-ring) but I have a brand new one in going to install tonight.

This is further up stream from the regulator and that doesn't have an effect. The check valve is also a long way way (I have the tank in one corner of the room and run about 5 metres of time before the check valve.

The rattling is something that goes away if I give the valve a half to full turn one way and then back. But that shouldn't be something I need to do. I'll try fully opening the valve and see if that helps. Maybe even an alcohol bath on the needle portion to make sure it's not some sort of grit stuck in there might be worthwhile too?

It's a really nice piece of machinery that I've had for years but only just started using as I never had a tank before. It's the same as the Parker valves the poster about 6 posts above (with the pictures and dual valves) uses.


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## Simpsoid

So I think I eventually identified what the issue was. I had a one way valve bubble counter after the metering needs. Directly off it. Was a cheap eBay item much like all of the rest. The little clear bubble counter that you attach the hose to the top. Bottom screws onto the metering needle, fill it with mineral / baby oil, and then you can see what the rate is. Like this:







.

Well that just happened to have a ball bearing that probably acted as the one way valve (from the bottom of the bubble counter). Anyway that ball bearing seemed to be the cause of the issue. It was what was rattling and possibly stopping the flow. It was so close to the metering needle that even with my head up to the system I thought the sound was originating in the needle valve and it's what caused the problems. Tapping the metering valve would often unstick the ball and so for the longest time I did think it was a valve. Now I know it's the bubble counter I can replace that.


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## Stacy1

Just finished all 20 pages. Another "Must Read" for people building their first regulator. Thanks to everyone who contributed. Id be lost without this info


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## Aqua99

Funken_A said:


> Well I have purchased the fabco NV-55-18 and I was not impressed. I do run a longer run of CO2 tubing which means i have to walk away for 5 minutes after each adjust. It was better than the otpion I had before hand but still does not allow anything but very fine twists of the knob to make big differences.
> 
> MY output PSI is set to 25 PSI... No matter what I've tried the fabco valves are still extremely finicky. I onlly paid $40 a piece so they represented a cheaper option.
> 
> I am now waiting on a pair of Dakota https://www.dakotainstruments.com/barstock-metering-valve-mfvs-brass-straight-flow
> 
> model # 6AMV1101 Maximum Flow Rate: Air - 200 mL/min, Water - 6 mL/min, 0.042 Orifice, 0.0008 Cv
> 
> 
> hoping this allows for a much more finer / coarser control of the bubbles


I'm really interested in what your impressions are of that Dakota. I have a few of the nearly identical Aalborg (they own Dakota) version VM1-SV-2A (.042/.0005) but just can't seem to make the time to try them out. I'd love to know how they work for you. It's neat hearing how some of these valves that are a little "under the radar" operate.

I was able to try some Circle Seal Controls MV92 series micro-metering valves I grabbed off eBay for a couple of $. They're 0.020 orifice/.0096 cv and are working great.


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## Oinq

*relationship*

Is there a relationship between CV and bps ?


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## Oinq

Bettatail said:


> *Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 0*, Part number: *-H0?-*-*-*
> Orifice:N/A
> Cv: 0.0004 (at 15 turn full open)
> *All Parker HR Series valves, the valve cartridge and the valve body are inter-changeable.*
> owned


What I exactly mean is for example this valve fully open, what should be the bubble rate?

I'm about to buy something but I would like to buy something capped, let's say if something goes wrong I would never have more than X bubbles per second.
I'm also thinking H0 or H1 from parker but I can't find info with a relationship between bps and the flow in the valve.


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## Oinq

It seems Bettatail is gone from this forum long ago.

I have been trying to find some information about this Parker valves and found this interesting calculator on Swagelok page.



> capital.swagelok.com/en/Resources/CVCalculator#


Here we can calculate the flow one valve can give based on it's CV.
Hope I answered some questions, since I haven't read the 300 posts this threads have, and contribuited a bit for the community.


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## jeffkrol

mrbman7 said:


> Sorry to resurrect this from the depths...
> 
> Just getting back into planted tanks after a long hiatus and I want to upgrade my cheap-o Clippard valve. Fleabay seems to be coming up short for metering valves that don't cost a fortune. Is anyone selling these valves on the forum I can contact? Looking for a nice quality Parker or something similar.
> 
> Thanks!



what is your "ceiling" here?
https://www.dakotainstruments.com/barstock-metering-valve-mfvs-brass-straight-flow

$88 new...

6AMV1101 Straight Brass 200 6 0.042 CV=0.0005 $88.00


compared to:


> Hoke Micromite 1600 series metering valve.
> Orifice: 0.031"
> Cv: 0.0008 (at 18 turn full open)
> owned


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## mr moto

Does anybody know a good source for the Ideal 52-1 series valves or should I just try contacting Ideal?


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## Nlewis

mr moto said:


> Does anybody know a good source for the Ideal 52-1 series valves or should I just try contacting Ideal?


I believe you have to order direct from them.


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## burr740

*Is this a good needle valve? Need advice from the experts please *

My GLA Gro1 has become an unreliable piece of crap as far as having a consistent bubble rate from one day to the next. I was thinking the simplest thing to do is run it wide open and add another metering valve down the line. 

Not looking for anything too fancy. Stability is more important than fine tune precision. It will be used on a big tank that's getting a lot of co2. 

Would this be a good choice or is there a better option for say, 50 bucks or less?

Parker Metering Valve, 316 Stainless Steel, 1/4" Compression, 4Z(A)-NML-V-SS-K


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## OreoP

burr740 said:


> My GLA Gro1 has become an unreliable piece of crap as far as having a consistent bubble rate from one day to the next. I w
> 
> as thinking the simplest thing to do is run it wide open and add another metering valve down the line.
> 
> Not looking for anything too fancy. Stability is more important than fine tune precision. It will be used on a big tank that's getting a lot of co2.
> 
> Would this be a good choice or is there a better option for say, 50 bucks or less?
> 
> Parker Metering Valve, 316 Stainless Steel, 1/4" Compression, 4Z(A)-NML-V-SS-K


Have you considered a flow meter? I use one on my 135 gal with the GLA Gro1. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009PACIGA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Right now on Amazon it is quoted at about $80.00 but I picked mine up for about $25.00. I got the idea from @Greggz and am very happy with it.

Just a quick internet search and see it at about $60


----------



## burr740

OreoP said:


> Have you considered a flow meter? I use one on my 135 gal with the GLA Gro1.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009PACIGA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Right now on Amazon it is quoted at about $80.00 but I picked mine up for about $25.00. I got the idea from @*Greggz* and am very happy with it.
> 
> Just a quick internet search and see it at about $60


Thanks. Will it control the rate of injection all by itself, and be very consistent about it? 

Im not sure exactly how they work but that's the number one priority.


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## OreoP

burr740 said:


> Thanks. Will it control the rate of injection all by itself, and be very consistent about it?
> 
> Im not sure exactly how they work but that's the number one priority.


The way I have set it up is to keep the GLA valve 100% open and control the CO2 flow with the flow meter. Rather than measuring bps, you are measuring the actual cc of CO2 injected. As long as your output pressure from the regulator is constant, the flow meter is very stable. The only time I have to play around with the settings is when I replace the CO2 tank. I see no reason why you cannot connect the flow meter directly to the the regulator.


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## Greggz

OreoP said:


> The way I have set it up is to keep the GLA valve 100% open and control the CO2 flow with the flow meter. Rather than measuring bps, you are measuring the actual cc of CO2 injected. As long as your output pressure from the regulator is constant, the flow meter is very stable. The only time I have to play around with the settings is when I replace the CO2 tank. I see no reason why you cannot connect the flow meter directly to the the regulator.


+1 to above.

I don't understand how anyone uses a bubble counter for a larger tank. It's too touchy and making relative adjustments is a guess at best. 

When you are using lots of CO2, the flow meter makes everything much more precise. Have the flow set at 30cc/min, want to up it 10%, go up to 33cc/min. Don't know how you would do that with a needle valve and bubble counter.

Really surprised they are not more common on any tank larger than 70G or so. I am very happy with mine.


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## Immortal1

Gregg, do you recall what Model Number that Dwyer meter is? 
I am guessing it is a RMA-151 Flowmeter, 5-50cc/min air. +/- 8% accuracy
www.dwyer-inst.com/Product/Flow/Flowmeters/VariableArea/SeriesRM


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## PlantedRich

I also use flowmeters but then I do not find the adjustments to be as precise as I want them. My flowmeters have knobs but really too course for my favor. So I do run the CO2 through Fabco NV-55 or NV-55-18 as I find them to be more precise than the flowmeter and they do stay where I set them. I'm not aware of any place to find the Fabco other than direct and the shipping is a bit, so it may be possible to beat them on total cost if you find a good one on an auction. 
Something to know for those considering switching to flowmeters over bubble counters is what a wide range of types and flow are out there. To get what you need for your tank flow, I find it best to try an estimate. I do this by using the current flow I had and running that flow up into a metered container like a test tube. That can give you the current flow and let you do some calculations on which model flowmeter may fit best. But be ready to use some online calculators to convert many different ways to measure flow. Liters per minute will get you a whole different amount than cubic feet per hour!! 
But I find it is truly nice to look at a bubble floating in a tube that has real numbers on it. Much more sure and quicker than counting bubbles that you have to guess at?


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## Greggz

Immortal1 said:


> Gregg, do you recall what Model Number that Dwyer meter is?
> I am guessing it is a RMA-151 Flowmeter, 5-50cc/min air. +/- 8% accuracy
> Series RM | Rate-Master® Polycarbonate Flowmeter is suitable for both gas and liquid applications. Allows the piping to remain undisturbed, interchangeability of the ranges, and easy cleaning. | Dwyer Instruments


Yeah Linn that's the one, the Dwyer RMA-151-SSV Flow Meter. The SSV is for stainless steel valve. 

And Plantedrich is right, you need to figure out a rough estimate of your CC/Min, so you get a workable scale for your tank.

So here's where it is kind of guessing, but at least narrowing it down. Back when I first installed the meter, I took some readings to get some kind of an idea of how different bubble rates related to cc/min. As usual, what you get from me is completely unscientific, but might be enough to get in the ball park.

So here is what I came up. Size of bubble? Who knows. Are they really 2 bubbles, 4 bubbles, etc per second, who knows.

2 bubbles per second = 5 cc/min
4 bubbles per second = 10 cc/min
6 bubbles per second = 15 cc/min
8 bubbles per second = 20 cc/min

And for anyone interested, here is a link to the thread where I was trying to figure this out. It was my first post on this forum. Ran across you (Immortal1) for the first time, and you'll notice my first encounter with Sol. Good for a chuckle.

And for what it's worth, I was running my CO2 much lower at the time. Now driving down my pH by about 1.4 peak, I'm running about 40 cc/min. If it was a bigger tank, would need an appropriate meter with a bigger scale.

And as you can see, less than 2 bubbles per second or so not so good, so this particular meter would not work well with a smaller tank.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/959321-must-something-better-than-bubble-counter.html


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## burr740

Thanks guys. Yeah Im gonna go with a flow meter. Hell I might buy one for the 75 too!


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## PlantedRich

For starting reference to figure what might work for you? 
I use Dwyer flowmeters on a 20 long and the same on a 75 gallon. The small tank is much more thickly planted than the 75 but both do use a Grigg's style reactor. I got these off the auction and they do not have any label for model numbers but one can sort their catalog to find it if needed. These are calibrated to measure standard cubic feet per hour (SCFH) so the numbers come in really small at 0 to .10! So I advise looking very carefully before jumping on a "bargain" that may not work at all? The twenty runs fine at .03 SCFH and the 75 at .05 SCFH. Lots of conversion charts/calculators online to get in the ballpark when using different scales like metric, etc. 
A small point to be aware of is the need of check valves to keep water from creeping into the space where the tiny ball rides. When it gets wet, it no longer moves!! It can be taken apart to clean but better to not let it get wet?


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## burr740

PlantedRich said:


> For starting reference to figure what might work for you?
> I use Dwyer flowmeters on a 20 long and the same on a 75 gallon. The small tank is much more thickly planted than the 75 but both do use a Grigg's style reactor. I got these off the auction and they do not have any label for model numbers but one can sort their catalog to find it if needed. These are calibrated to measure standard cubic feet per hour (SCFH) so the numbers come in really small at 0 to .10! So I advise looking very carefully before jumping on a "bargain" that may not work at all? The twenty runs fine at .03 SCFH and the 75 at .05 SCFH. Lots of conversion charts/calculators online to get in the ballpark when using different scales like metric, etc.
> A small point to be aware of is the need of check valves to keep water from creeping into the space where the tiny ball rides. When it gets wet, it no longer moves!! It can be taken apart to clean but better to not let it get wet?


Thanks, Im just gonna get the same one greggz has, the 5-50.

As for dialing it in, I use those Fluval inline bubble counters because the ones on the regs are too small and run out of water too fast. 

These inline bubble counters are all either in the tank or close to it. So I should be able to just set the flow according to a similar bubble rate and go from there, without having to know how many CCs I need to begin with...right? Then once I know the general range eliminate the bubble counter


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> These inline bubble counters are all either in the tank or close to it. So I should be able to just set the flow according to a similar bubble rate and go from there, without having to know how many CCs I need to begin with...right? Then once I know the general range eliminate the bubble counter


Yes, that's what I did. Hooked it up first without changing the needle valve at all. Gave me a baseline to work with and adjust up/down.

Really comes in handy when you change tanks. Getting that needle valve right after a tank change is not easy.


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## Immortal1

Hey Gregg - I do remember that first thread of yours. November 2015 - wow. A lot has changed since then 
I am also running the Fluval in-line bubble counters as I feel they were a bit easier to read. As you already noted Gregg, I am now running enough bps that it almost appears to be a steady stream so counting bubbles is really useless on my 75g. Should have bought a flow meter back in 2015 when you started that thread. I suppose for what it's worth it should be noted that the Stainless Steel Valve would be a much better choice given the corrosive nature of CO2


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## mr moto

Nlewis said:


> I believe you have to order direct from them.


In case anyone else is looking for an Ideal 52-1, AquariumPlants.com is carrying them in both the straight and angled versions.


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## mr moto

mr moto said:


> In case anyone else is looking for an Ideal 52-1, AquariumPlants.com is carrying them in both the straight and angled versions.


I've looked at customer reviews for AquariumPlants. com and they must be among the worst places in the world to deal with so I hope nobody ordered from them based on my previous post. However, I don't get any response when trying to contact Ideal directly so their valves must be playing hard to get.


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## RLee

burr740 said:


> Thanks, Im just gonna get the same one greggz has, the 5-50.
> 
> As for dialing it in, I use those Fluval inline bubble counters because the ones on the regs are too small and run out of water too fast.
> 
> These inline bubble counters are all either in the tank or close to it. So I should be able to just set the flow according to a similar bubble rate and go from there, without having to know how many CCs I need to begin with...right? Then once I know the general range eliminate the bubble counter


The fabco NV-55-18 is a great valve. Holds consistent, is priced right $38.25 brand new from the manufacturer https://store.fabco-air.com/proddetail.php?prod=NV-55-18. I have no idea why people are using plain water in the bubble counter. OK it is cheap but it is impossible to measure high CO2 flow rates. I use glycerin. This https://www.walmart.com/ip/Humco-Gl...35&wl11=local&wl12=10417582&wl13=5687&veh=sem nearly as cheap as water and you can find it in store at Wall Mart. It's thick consistency is great for counting bubbles at higher flow rates plus it lasts so much longer.


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## RLee

Immortal1 said:


> Hey Gregg - I do remember that first thread of yours. November 2015 - wow. A lot has changed since then
> I am also running the Fluval in-line bubble counters as I feel they were a bit easier to read. As you already noted Gregg, I am now running enough bps that it almost appears to be a steady stream so counting bubbles is really useless on my 75g. Should have bought a flow meter back in 2015 when you started that thread. I suppose for what it's worth it should be noted that the Stainless Steel Valve would be a much better choice given the corrosive nature of CO2


Co2 is not corrosive enough by itself to harm brass or any copper/copper alloy. Now if there is water mixed with co2 then maybe. Thats why one always uses a check valve/ All of the regulator manufacturers sell brass reg's for CO2 use. All keg style regs are brass, why is it an issue or less desirable because the needle valve is brass?


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## burr740

RLee said:


> The fabco NV-55-18 is a great valve. Holds consistent, is priced right $38.25 brand new from the manufacturer https://store.fabco-air.com/proddetail.php?prod=NV-55-18. I have no idea why people are using plain water in the bubble counter. OK it is cheap but it is impossible to measure high CO2 flow rates. I use glycerin. This https://www.walmart.com/ip/Humco-Gl...35&wl11=local&wl12=10417582&wl13=5687&veh=sem nearly as cheap as water and you can find it in store at Wall Mart. It's thick consistency is great for counting bubbles at higher flow rates plus it lasts so much longer.


Thanks, but Ive had a Fabco 55-18 before. Replaced the factory valve on an Aquateck reg and ran it for a couple of years.

It was OK, nothing particularly wrong with it but I was in the market for something better this go around. Plus the fact that this GLA reg has what appears to be the same thing...does little to inspire confidence

I wound up going with the Dwyer Flow Meter. Got it the other day, havent hooked it up yet


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## RLee

burr740 said:


> Thanks, but Ive had a Fabco 55-18 before. Replaced the factory valve on an Aquateck reg and ran it for a couple of years.
> 
> It was OK, nothing particularly wrong with it but I was in the market for something better this go around. Plus the fact that this GLA reg has what appears to be the same thing...does little to inspire confidence
> 
> I wound up going with the Dwyer Flow Meter. Got it the other day, havent hooked it up yet


You cannot find a better needle valve any where near the price point of the Fabco........... You think its the same valve as the Fabco because it uses the same plastic knob?
Funny how you base your judgment of the needle valve when you have it connected to a POS regulator like the Aquatek. I had dual Fabco's on a POS JBJ regulator for years. Was left a little wanting. I didn't realize how accurate the Fabco can be untill I switched to decent dual stage regulator.


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## burr740

RLee said:


> ........ You think its the same valve as the Fabco because it uses the same plastic knob?


Dont know and dont care!


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## RLee

burr740 said:


> Dont know and dont care!


Well if you don't know or don't care why do you make comments about it otherwise? Oh and BTW I have tried flow meters and they are hilariously inaccurate for our purposes. You will see.


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## burr740

RLee said:


> Well if you don't know or don't care why do you make comments about it otherwise? Oh and BTW I have tried flow meters and they are hilariously inaccurate for our purposes. You will see.


Maybe relax a little bit, what are you the Fabco police? I chose to go a different route. If this dont work I'll do something else. Thanks for the advice!


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## Greggz

RLee said:


> Well if you don't know or don't care why do you make comments about it otherwise? Oh and BTW I have tried flow meters and they are hilariously inaccurate for our purposes. You will see.


Don't want to start a big debate or anything, but I am really curious why you would say that about flow meters? I've been using the same unit pictured by Burr above for several years, and it is just rock solid. It's produced by Dwyer, who makes hundreds of different flow meters for use in Industrial and Scientific applications.

Having used both a needle valve, and a flow meter, in my experience needle valves in general are wildly inaccurate for our purposes, particularly for a larger tank (70G of larger). Now that is just my experience having used both.

Did you use this same meter by Dwyer? That is do you have actual experience with this particular flow meter? And if so, what were the shortcomings? 

To me, having a measurable flow is light years ahead of adjusting a needle valve by counting bubbles. Curious as to your thoughts? Maybe I am missing something?


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## jeffkrol

> Darkblade is correct in that the amounts we inject are very low. For example, with a reactor (low pressure injection), we inject CO2 in the range of about 10 ml/min (SCCM) on a small tank, and up to maybe 200 ml/min (SCCM) on a very big tank (like a 300 gallon tank). That's 0.021 SCFH to 0.424 SCFH. Very small amounts. Furthermore, the problem with measuring the flow rate is that the actual amount of gas flowing is dependent on line pressure (and to a lesser degree, temperature).
> 
> For instance, the line pressure for a reactor is under about 1.5 PSI, whereas a diffuser might be under 30 PSI. Using the ideal gas law, that difference in pressure means that at the same flow rate, the diffuser would be pumping out 20 times as much gas (because gas compresses). As such, "flow rates" measured with a diffuser would be far lower than that of a reactor since the gas is under higher pressure.


not verified just for discussion...


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## RLee

Greggz said:


> Don't want to start a big debate or anything, but I am really curious why you would say that about flow meters? I've been using the same unit pictured by Burr above for several years, and it is just rock solid. It's produced by Dwyer, who makes hundreds of different flow meters for use in Industrial and Scientific applications.
> 
> Having used both a needle valve, and a flow meter, in my experience needle valves in general are wildly inaccurate for our purposes, particularly for a larger tank (70G of larger). Now that is just my experience having used both.
> 
> Did you use this same meter by Dwyer? That is do you have actual experience with this particular flow meter? And if so, what were the shortcomings?
> 
> To me, having a measurable flow is light years ahead of adjusting a needle valve by counting bubbles. Curious as to your thoughts? Maybe I am missing something?


No it wasn't a Dwyer it was this one https://www.zoro.com/miller-electric-flowmeter-cylinder-14-in-mnpt-h2230a/i/G1359407/#specifications. It came with a reg I bought. The one you use has a lower scale which will make dialing in flow changes easier. I found that a small change in flow on the meter equaled a huge change to CO2 in the tank. Mine did not have enough resolution.
I wonder if using a better needle valve before the flow meter would of helped resolution. 
Instead I used 2 reactors each with its own needle valve and bubble counter because it was hard to gauge how much was pumping out when using high volumes of CO2 and only 1. This set up worked well. I also used glycerin in the bubble counter. Being alot thicker than plain water it helped. The other added benefit was a reduction in the micro bubbles in the tank. I can't stand micro bubbles.
This setup was on a 120gal 48" 24" 24". I had to move so that tank is gone now. I still have my 60 gal though.


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## charlie 1

RLee said:


> You cannot find a better needle valve any where *near the price point of the Fabco........... You think its the same valve as the Fabco because it uses the same plastic knob?*Funny how you base your judgment of the needle valve when you have it connected to a POS regulator like the Aquatek. I had dual Fabco's on a POS JBJ regulator for years. Was left a little wanting. I didn't realize how accurate the Fabco can be untill I switched to decent dual stage regulator.


It actually is the same valve as per the Fabco engineer that designed it :wink2:


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## jeffkrol

charlie 1 said:


> It actually is the same valve as per the Fabco engineer that designed it :wink2:


so basically you are replacing a bubble counter w/ a floating ball..................... funny..
That kind of brings it full circle eh..........

$70 flow valve vs $50 Fabco plus bubble counter..
https://www.zoro.com/miller-electri...advisor&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=connexity
Or ($35 body only):
https://www.globaltestsupply.com/pr...MIiaLl7ZDi2AIVhMVkCh0XLwuvEAkYAiABEgJG1vD_BwE



> Precision metering valves in brass or stainless steel are available for most VFA and VFB models.


a bunch of these at "that place" for $20.........
SS
Series RMA-2-SSV
0-1 SCFM


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## RLee

charlie 1 said:


> It actually is the same valve as per the Fabco engineer that designed it :wink2:


Well damn, you learn something new every day.


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## Greggz

jeffkrol said:


> a bunch of these at "that place" for $20.........
> SS
> Series RMA-2-SSV
> 0-1 SCFM


The trick is getting one that measures the scale that you require. The one you are referencing is measuring standard cubic feet/hour (SCFH) not cc/min. The amount of flow we have with a CO2 system is very small in the scheme of things.

One cc/min is equal to 0.0021 cu ft/h. That scale would not be any good for most tanks.


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## jeffkrol

Greggz said:


> The trick is getting one that measures the scale that you require. The one you are referencing is measuring standard cubic feet/hour (SCFH) not cc/min. The amount of flow we have with a CO2 system is very small in the scheme of things.
> 
> One cc/min is equal to 0.0021 cu ft/h. That scale would not be any good for most tanks.


Was going off this.. 0-1SCFM seemed in range..........



> Darkblade is correct in that the amounts we inject are very low. For example, with a reactor (low pressure injection), we inject CO2 in the range of about 10 ml/min (SCCM) on a small tank, and up to maybe 200 ml/min (SCCM) on a very big tank (like a 300 gallon tank). *That's 0.021 SCFH to 0.424 SCFH. *Very small amounts. Furthermore, the problem with measuring the flow rate is that the actual amount of gas flowing is dependent on line pressure (and to a lesser degree, temperature).


.05SCFM is "obtainable" easily..

0.02 to 1/2scfm...Tank range

Yea probably problematic at the low end (smaller tanks/low injection rates).. discussion was leaning to larger tanks..
Looks more log scaled so there is that..w/ estimates

wasn't referring to the images here but the evil bay one I found..Much finer scale..

There are finer ones..









RMA-1-BV Flowmeter, range .05-.4 SCFH air. 1-2 Weeks $43.50


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## Greggz

jeffkrol said:


> Was going off this.. 0-1SCFM seemed in range..........
> 
> 
> 
> .05SCFM is "obtainable" easily..
> 
> 0.02 to 1/2scfm...Tank range
> 
> Yea probably problematic at the low end (smaller tanks/low injection rates).. discussion was leaning to larger tanks..
> Looks more log scaled so there is that..w/ estimates
> 
> wasn't referring to the images here but the evil bay one I found..Much finer scale..
> 
> There are finer ones..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RMA-1-BV Flowmeter, range .05-.4 SCFH air. 1-2 Weeks $43.50


Jeff yes that scale might work for many. For smaller tanks, an even finer scale may be required.

For those considering using a flow meter, I can tell you how much I use. Now keep in mind there are lots of variable as to each tanks usage, but still it might help someone for ballpark figures.

In my 120G tank to drop pH by 1.0 I set it at about 25 cc/min. To obtain a 1.4 pH drop, it's just under 40 cc/min.

Now keep in mind, the actual real value is really not that important. It's having the ability to adjust relative values. On a larger tank, trying to turn up your CO2 10% with a bubble counter is next to impossible. With a flow meter, you can get a reasonable approximation for our purposes.

Also, when you change tanks, with a bubble counter it's next to impossible to get back to whatever flow rate was working for you. With the flow meter, you can get reasonably close easily.

Again, in my experience, it's just a much better way to control the flow of CO2 with a larger tank.


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## Bettatail

I am back


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## ipkiss

Welcome back!


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## rajdude

Thanks Bettatail for the detailed, excellent information!

I just spent a lot of time researching into which one to buy. Eventually settled for Ideal V 52-2-12. Because the v52-1-xx cannot simply be found anywhere on the internet :-(
I did call Ideal directly to see if they have it. Yes, they sell it for $100 + 7.50 shipping. That is a little too high for my wallet, so I went with a new v52-2 version on eBay for 40 bucks. BTW, the guy said do not buy the 52-2 version that is too big or something. He also said go with the non-vernier version, as the vernier is not really needed. That version is 20 bucks cheaper.


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