# 45 -now a 55- for Angels



## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

_Current tank shot Feb 2021_:









Anybody remember this attempt I made? Third time's a charm. It's up and running!








It's a 45g I'm keeping in my basement hallway niche. Started off just part full, because I didn't have a filter with capacity for the entire water volume yet, but wanted to get it going and put the cories in there so they could have the bigger footprint already. So I had it set up with fifteen gallons of water, a 50 watt heater and three filters running on airlines- my 20g capacity corner filter stuffed with media taken from the 38g's canister, and my two small extra sponge filters (10g capacity each). These came straight out of the 10g quarantine tank, and all the contents went in here too- plastic plants, driftwood sticks, rocks, fake decor (pipe, bridge, clay arches).

Lighting is just the simple LED strip that came with the kit. I'm keeping it low tech and sticking to low-light, really undemanding plants. Especially since the tank is tall, I don't know how much would reach the bottom anyway.









Leaf litter is new- I sorted (to get the cleanest) oak leaves from the yard, boiled them twenty minutes, soaked in dechlor water with carbon for twenty-four hours as prep. I hoped with all that stuff carrying over good bacteria on its surfaces, I'd get an instant cycle, and I think it worked again. I've been testing daily and the tank has zero nitrite, zero ammonia, 5-10 ppm nitrate steady. Started with handful of ramshorn snails as inhabitants and test subjects. They did fine. In fact, I found an egg case already, ha. (More on the snails later).








I also put in a lot of expired fish flakes tied in a pantyhose to provide ammonia, and have been dropping in daily fresh food equal to the amount I'd feed the first fishes I want to put in here (brochis splendens- emerald catfish): one algae wafer, two or three shrimp pellets. Of course this means the snails are multiplying but the plan is for them to be food to the fishes, anyway. (Perry is getting fed some of the extra little ones, for now).

On to the plants! Perry's tank donated a few rocks and small sticks, and this one free-floating vallisneria. Which is now lightly tied down to a fragment of driftwood, and seems happy enough. It's grown a bit in the few days been in here.








I thinned a bunch of plants out of the betta's tenner. Various anubia, including a large cutting off this one barteri that has been obscuring the skull cave (the tenner doesn't look much different except now I can see the skull more, and the shrimps are easier to spot in the background).








Most of the anubia lanceolata, congensis and afzelii.








This smaller anubias on the left, is one I grew from an inch rhizome piece. It still has a long way to go!








A few bucephalandra tied onto rocks.








Leaf litter! I am planning to keep this tank more or less bare bottom- with a layer of oak leaves. Next time I prep leaves I might cut them into smaller pieces, though. I know the fishes will kick them around, the plants should more or less stay in place (most are epiphytes on rocks)








I've tucked subwassertang into a few corners- even though I know it probably won't stay there.








I used to dislike using this corner filter for the annoying blub-blub sound. Fixed that. Had to remove a bit of the media- I think I stuffed it too full at first (this was several days after setup) so I threw away the wad of flake food that was getting stinky in the pantyhose, and loosely tied the media I took out of this filter in there, instead. Also helpful to rinse when it seems to slow, and take care to work all the air pockets out- that's tricky- before replacing in the tank. But what really silenced it was sticking a folded bit of mesh into the output pipe. It breaks up the outflow into finer bubbles.








So at that point my part-filled tank looked like this:








and then two days later it went to this:








Because a friend of my husband was tearing down his last tank (retiring) and gave me all these plants, and some driftwood. It had algae that cleaned off easy with a bit of scrub, and got a soak to boot.








I put the additional anubia lanceolata or whatever they are with the others in front to make a denser group. I like it.








I'm really pleased with the java ferns- here in two different kinds of lighting. Java fern never does great in my other tanks, seems to need more nutrient so I feel a bit dubious how it will do in here. But perhaps it will get something from the breakdown of the leaves?
















And then I realized my 50-watt heater wasn't keeping up with the volume. It was on constantly. I had to fill the tank already to put in my 200-watt heater instead. My fishkeeping friend loaned me this MUCH larger sponge filter. I kept the two small ones in the tank, just sitting around- but now with this puppy running and the 20g corner filter- I feel good about it for now.








Here's the final look. Hornwort floating is bright and even pearling- I don't like that it gets pushed all to the center, but intend to get a canister and then shift the media from the three smaller filters into it... Also the largest anubias is fairly dead center- but when it grows, new foliage will extend to the right, and when I move that sponge filter out, can shift the driftwood over too. I'm more pleased with it off the bat than I really expected to be. (I was going to keep it very minimalist- but seems I can't help putting plants and plants in there!)








It just needs a tangle of sticks now. And then some fishes. (The cories got adopted before I got this far, so for now it is one big snail and a bunch of little ones).


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## PoPoBTC (Aug 11, 2014)

Looks good!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

PoPoBTC said:


> Looks good!


Thanks! I keep expecting some plants to start dying (especially the java fern) lol, but crossing my fingers... 

So far it's started out with the ramshorn snails. They are hard to spot. Like to crawl around under the leaf litter, of course. Here's one in the background on the underside of a buce leaf.








I kept an eye out for them the first few days, to make sure they were okay with conditions, and got a few closer pics
















Then transferred in the apple snail- it's grown so much bigger! but I was concerned because for a day it didn't move. Floating at the surface. I took it out- no stink (and found out they just happen to chill like this sometimes).








I dropped in a piece of blanched spinach on a glass bead sinker. Apple snail was in the corner for hours over that spinach.








(and when I pulled up the fragment of spinach it left behind, found a tiny ramshorn was enjoying it, too)
















Now I find myself in the basement a lot, watching the apple snail crawl around the tank...








particularly interesting when it navigates narrow sticks








or the underside of leaves
















I never thought I'd be so taken with a snail... if it decides to eat plants, well I hope it goes for the subwassertang and leaves the buces alone. I can't imagine it would munch on tough anubia or java fern...


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Wow that really looks great and your plant selection should fit very well. It's super easy to add a little more light... much more difficult to tone down an overly powerful fixture. Beamswork would be perfect. 
I LOVE angels... but they don't fit with my tanks at the moment. What are you getting? I had Dantums (so gorgeous) Pinoy Ghost and another one from the Phillipine blue line. If you haven't chosen a breeder (please go with a breeder, they are just as affordable, but 10 times as pretty) Carol BASKINGTON on Aquabid is FANTASTIC and has insane prices on incredible angels. I don't know if you'll be able to do more than a single mated pair long term though...


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

The Dude1 said:


> Wow that really looks great and your plant selection should fit very well....


Thanks so much! 

Yes, I am only planning on keeping a pair. I am not sure where I will get them yet. I am actually looking for the old standard classic "wild type" silvers- no pearlscale or veils- totally for nostalgic reasons because that is the kind I first got as a kid from friends of the family who bred them, and they are still my favorites. I like zebra types too, but am not too fond of kois or the other new colors although the blue pinoys do look awesome... but I have time to figure it out because I still want to finish putting in driftwood sticks (to kind of look like root tangle in there) and make sure it is well established before I add angels...

I've changed my mind on the bottom dwellers, though. Today I moved in my four black kuhli loaches. For several reasons: all my kuhlis are starting to get mature and more healthy-looking, robust in girth. I am starting to wonder if they might breed because I see new behavior. I would want the black and striped ones separate if that happens. (Not sure if they _would_ cross, though). And I decided it would just be cool to see the kuhlis slipping in and out of the leaf litter, rather than boisterous catfish shoving everything around (which I've seen even the smaller peppered ones do in the QT that had this kind of decor).

Here's how it looks now. 








I moved a few things around to put the corner filter actually in the corner, and the clay arch behind the anubias thicket. I'm reconsidering my filtration, too. Maybe I will get a second quality sponge filter and just run one in each corner, instead of investing in a canister. I keep hearing horror stories from folks I know- one guy told me he knew a canister to blow a gasket and leak all over under the stand, another told me if power goes out and the media is stagnant for hours, when you turn on the filter again all that dead stuff kicked into the tank will kill the fishes. Yikes. I never had any issues yet with my Eheim in the 38, but I still feel nervous _every_ time I go to flip the valves and open it up. A sponge is so easy- seems like no risk- as long as it can keep the water clear.

I tested parameters again this morning. Zero ammonia or nitrite, 10ppm nitrate. I thought the leaf litter would affect pH but it's at 7.8 just like my other tanks. I'm going to add more soon.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I understand sentimental attachments. Those anubias are so lush and green! Any reason you aren't considering an aquaclear? Super easy to clean, reliable, and better mechanical filtration than a sponge


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

The Dude1 said:


> ... Any reason you aren't considering an aquaclear? Super easy to clean, reliable, and better mechanical filtration than a sponge


Hm, well I had an aquaclear once the plastic housing cracked and it leaked. Bad memory. I am not too fond of HOB filters in general anymore. Plus there's only about 1" between the tank and the wall, and I'd have to custom cut the hood skirt to hang it on the short end. Might think about it some more, though.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ok, so here's my new thought on filtration. Currently I have (borrowed) what I think is a Hydor IV sponge (rated for 80 gal) on an air pump rated for 20gal and also my corner filter (rated for 20gal) on two 10gal air pumps... it was temporary what I could throw together to get this running. (It definitely makes enough ripple across the top of the tank).

I'm thinking of replacing all that, getting two Hydor III Pro sponge filters (rated for 40gal) and running each one on a 20gal rated air pump- with a valve to adjust air flow. I can rinse each sponge alternately when they need cleaning. Will that be good filtration for the tank? I feel like the sponges themselves will have enough physical capacity for the biological filtration- but not sure how much the amount of air flow matters. Should I up the size of the air pumps if I decide to go that route. I would prefer the Hydor III because I think it would be a bit less visible in the back corners of the tank.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

JJ09 said:


> Ok, so here's my new thought on filtration. Currently I have (borrowed) what I think is a Hydor IV sponge (rated for 80 gal) on an air pump rated for 20gal and also my corner filter (rated for 20gal) on two 10gal air pumps... it was temporary what I could throw together to get this running. (It definitely makes enough ripple across the top of the tank).
> 
> I'm thinking of replacing all that, getting two Hydor III Pro sponge filters (rated for 40gal) and running each one on a 20gal rated air pump- with a valve to adjust air flow. I can rinse each sponge alternately when they need cleaning. Will that be good filtration for the tank? I feel like the sponges themselves will have enough physical capacity for the biological filtration- but not sure how much the amount of air flow matters. Should I up the size of the air pumps if I decide to go that route. I would prefer the Hydor III because I think it would be a bit less visible in the back corners of the tank.


In my experience those ratings (pump and filter sponges) are very optimistic. I only follow them if the sponge is a secondary means of filtration. It seems to me that the ratings are also more applicable for a bare bottom tank. For a planted tank with sponges the only means of filtration I would upsize sponges and especially pumps... everything we talk about is turnover... how much turn over is there for a sponge filter??? I would go at least double the rated sponge size and pump size. Looks like you're good with sponges at about 100 gallons, but definately step up those pumps. Even then it's not going to do much for mechanically cleaning the water.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Hm, ok. Thanks for the reply. Yes, it is pretty much a bare bottom tank...


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

Oh I love it!! I love the look of the leaf litter.  I'm gonna have to try it out one of these days.
I'm sure those kuhli loaches are loving all the hiding spots up under the leaves


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks, @lisals! I'm liking it too, and I think the kuhlis are very happy in here. It's _so_ fun to watch them going in and out of the leaf litter, they kind of leap and slide over and under like dolphins through surf, ha. I really enjoy watching them.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*updates-*

*from 6/13-*
most of my plants seem to be doing okay- some of the anubias are rather pale, especially the largest one on the driftwood (it just sprouted the first new leaf); this mid-sized barteri in the corner still looks the best








the smaller anubias thicket quickly gathers debris-
















so do the smaller buces- these photos a few days apart-
















I thinks it's this guy's fault. The seemingly excessive debris. Large snails poop a lot. I'd heard this before, but it's something else to see it all over the tank!








Well, I still think it's a very cool snail to watch.








I learned that at higher temps (my tank is at 78-79° right now) they have a shorter lifespan, sometimes as short as six months. I don't know how old it was when I got it. Certainly has grown fast. I may just wait for it to reach its natural end, before adding the angelfish.... . . . because I don't like seeing the mess it makes. It moves in very fast on the food sometimes- can even beat the kuhlis to a morsel if they're still blasting around the tank randomly with excitement over the food smell
















Here's a few of the ramshorns converging on food.








They are multiplying- I find egg clusters all over the place. So far I'm still okay with this. The glass is perfectly clear of algae.








Here's one doing its job (same snail from the second photo in this post, just above the anubias thicket)








Kuhlis are either hidden, or in constant motion. Come out very active when I drop food in. 
















I found a better way to do my water changes. Traditional vacuum is no good in a tank without real substrate. I got a piece of tubing, attached a rigid pipe on the end long enough to reach the bottom easily, and I can maneuver it into crevices to remove mulm. Rubber-banded a bit of mesh on the end to prevent larger pieces of leaf getting sucked up. Works a charm.

I had my first alarming accident the week before when tried to do a water change with the regular siphon- it was awkward to say the least. I was looking close at my doings in the tank and jostled the wastewater bucket hard enough that a lot of water sloshed out. It was all over the floor and running under the tank stand and baseboards- I hollered in alarm and my husband came running and got out the shop vac. Now it's kind of funny- a few towels mopped it up and really it was only two gallons of water that had spilled. I was able to wick it out from under the stand with paper towels, but then had to re-level with composite shims because the cedar ones I used got wet and shrank. Yikes. Just a few gallons so alarming, I can't imagine what a _real_ leak or spill would do. We reacted fast, and I am more careful now, and it's easier to do so with a better (in this case handmade) tool for the job.

vallisneria- I added a few more
















Final shot: one little java fern that came loose from its hold. I've had to re-tie quite a few plants, actually. Some of the other java ferns have new fiddleheads arising, so I hope they do well in this tank.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*more updates*

*from 6/17-*
I added a lot more leaf litter. Took quite a while to sort, clean and soak oak leaves from last fall's stash, one plastic grocery bag full (a fraction of what I have saved up) turned out to be just the right amount. Most of them I trimmed and cut into smaller pieces this time.








It has the exact effect I was hoping for. The leaf litter hides all the rock anchors, so it looks like the plants are growing straight out of them.
























Buces, smallest plants in here, barely poke up above the litter, I'm glad I tied them onto highest points of rocks. They should grow upwards and keep clear of it. I didn't think about it until I had dropped all the leaves in, but oops I have completely smothered all the subwassertang! And the small vals got covered, too. I bet a val might grow up out of the litter, but maybe the subwassertang will die. That's okay, I have plenty more of it in other tanks.








Largest anubias grew a new leaf.








Some java ferns have new, young leaves growing too.








My apple snail has been topside feeding off the hornwort lately. I am often fascinated at how it manages to cling to a single, narrow stem of hornwort up there. Eventually its weight pulls the plant down, or it lets go and sinks down to the bottom of the tank again. It spreads its foot out wide when falling, like it is gliding through the water.








Such a handsome snail, even it I am annoyed at all its poops. (Most of that is hidden under the deeper leaf litter now.)








Kuhlis _love_ the additional leaves. The entire tank floor is their hideout now. Here's a glimpse of one.








I made a selection of forked sticks from dead branches that fell off our oak, maple and sycamore trees in the past few spring storms. Prepping them for tank use- first I boiled them in my pressure cooker (just as the biggest pot in the house, _not _with the lid on!) this way and then taking them all out turned around to boil the other ends. For hours. Water stained very dark. Now I'm peeling bark off the sticks when I have time, and dropping into the tank where they just float, to let them get water logged.








Apple snail spends a lot of time up among the floating sticks. It is probably eating the biofilm or fungus that emerges, because I haven't seen any sign of that ugly white stuff yet. I don't mind letting the sticks float for a few weeks while the snail cleans them off. I'm seeing a lot more ramshorn snails because they come up to feed off the wood, too. And somehow- unintentionally- I've introduced limpets into this tank. Probably on a plant. Oh well. They are not very noticeable in the large tank, and they do help keep the glass very clean.

*from 6/27-*
Finished soaking all the sticks I collected, and peeled the bark off. Most are half-floating in the top of my 45gal, a few have begun to sink. The snails are enjoying wood surfaces. It has tinted the water somewhat. Already the tank is looking more natural as a few are angling down to the bottom and I like how the light plays over them.









*from 7/18-*
The sticks waterlogged faster than I'd hoped.








I started arranging a few








Snails crawl all over them- and not a single sign of fungus. My snails eat it all.








Some of the plants came loose from their anchors, but as long as they stay low in the tank, I don't care if they drift a bit.








To my surprise, I found the little vallisneria I'd smothered in leaf litter, is still alive and green. A lot of the subwassertang I'd unintentionally buried is also still green. Cheers!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Last week my tank looked like this- 








Then I took all the plastic plants out (and some extra bags of media) to make a QT setup. And I took the hornwort out, gave it to the serpae tetra 20H, moved frobits in. Rearranged a few plants, too- and of course the sticks always get shifted around a bit when I do a cleaning.








Today I put in the pothos (from Perry's old tank- it will do well in the very low light of this basement hallway). The roots are very long. I managed to work them back through the holes of plastic support strip without breaking many (had to reposition a few). Also replenished leaf litter. And swapped lights- took the kit hood and light off the 45, and put on it LED and glass lid that used to be on the 38. It's probably too bright now- Experimenting with plastic layers to see what will get the light level back to where I had it- don't know if I can match that close enough.
















However I have a few more plants in here (so much for making this a driftwood/leaf litter only tank). I moved in the buces on dragon stone. Green 'wavy' in the background








and brownie ghost piece in the fore.








My other buces are still doing pretty well, in here.








I am moving my entire kuhli loach gang into this tank now. They certainly can't live with Perry, and I don't want to overcrowd the 20H (although tetras look very happy now they're starting to settle in). Today I introduced three newer black kuhlis (just out of QT), and the striped ones Albert and Tiger. I still have to catch Sassy and Monty- they accidentally got moved into the 20H- I think crawled into a bag of media and hid until I plopped them unceremoniously into the tank. I've set a trap (all day) and just now Sassy is starting to creep near it. He must be hungry...


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*it feels ready....*









I've been running this tank for about three months now. My youngest, and my husband, keep asking me when I'm going to get the angelfish. I'm pleased with the tangle of pothos roots, the arrangement of sticks (more or less) and how the tank performs with leaf litter- it continues to have only 5-10 nitrates at the end of each week, and the kuhlis seem to kick up enough mulm out from under the leaf litter when they energetically go searching for food, to keep it picked up by the filters. I would still rather wait for the apple snail to meet its natural end, although aqadvisor tells me I am totally fine with the stocking level. I've found some nice young 'wild type' silvers at the lfs next town over...


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## Frank158 (Oct 1, 2013)

Subscribed to your thread and looking forward to see your angels


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## finfan (Jun 16, 2008)

nice set up, you are very patient... I would never be able to wait that long!!!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*here's my angels!*









sorry not a good pic- I had the lights dim while floating the bag- tomorrow (after they have rested in the dark) will try for something better. They're so little!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> sorry not a good pic- I had the lights dim while floating the bag- tomorrow (after they have rested in the dark) will try for something better. They're so little!




Very nice color and shape to the black & silver stripe angel. Good choice. 
Make sure to feed lots of protein ( I use freeze dried black worms w/ spirulina for my Discus — Angels and Discus juveniles have very similar needs) and do small feedings 2-3 x daily for best health and growth of juveniles. Also, while young their immune systems are more fragile- I would shoot for minimum of 1 @ 50% water change weekly until Sub-adult size. 

If you would like a good source for the freeze- dried black worm cubes / with spirulina let me know— it is an excellent staple food for juveniles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks for the pointers, @Discusluv, I haven't kept angels in decades. Right now I have on hand to feed them: NLS pellets, Omega One betta pellets and shrimp pellets, Omega One protein formula tropical flake, live mosquito wigglers, live red worms (earthworms), Fluval bug bites, Gold Pearls (might be too small), Tetra cichlid flake. The last one looks poor quality so I think I will just compost it actually (it was given to me with a used tank I bought once). Should I not feed them the betta food? If you think this mix of foods is not good, I'll look into getting something else too like the black worms. I've read in a few places that young angels need some greens in their diet- is that why you feed them the black worms w/Spirulina? 

And yes, I was planning on feeding them 3 times a day, w/50% wc each week (or 25% twice a week). The tank is still reading below 10ppm nitrates each week before I do maintenance, in fact yesterday it read zero. I think because the pothos vine have adjusted and sent their roots down.

I'm very pleased with them! I had my eye on these two particular individuals at the LFS for a while- it's not in my town so I don't frequently go there but I was very happy they were still available. I won't let myself get too attached and name them quite yet, though... . . .


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Spirulina has many benefits; too many for me to list, but here is a break down online. Ill provide link so you can read the whole article: 


-Quote:the following:

_"SPIRULINA ANALYSIS

Here is the general analysis of pure Spirulina Algae:

Protein: 55%- 70%
Carbohydrates: 15% - 25% (an excellent low ratio for fish)
Fats (lipids): 6% - 8%
Minerals: 6 -13%
Fiber: 8% - 10%

Natural Pigment Enhancers:

Phycocyanin (Blue): 14%
Chlorophyll (Green): 1%
Carotenoids (Orange/ Red): 47%

Important Trace Minerals (many of these are essential for proper electrolyte balance and osmotic function):

Calcium (1,315 mg/kg), Iron, Phosphorus (15,400 mg/kg), Iodine, Magnesium, Zinc, Selenium, Copper, Manganese, Chromium, Molybdenum, Sodium, Chloride, Potassium, Germanium, Boron.

Essential Amino Acids:

• ISOLEUCINE (4.130/o): Required for optimal growth, nitrogen equilibrium in the body Used to synthesize other non-essential amino acids.
• LEUCINE (5.8001o): increases muscular energy levels.
• LYSINE (4.000/o): Building block of blood antibodies, strengthens circulatory system and maintains normal growth of cells.
• METHIONINE (2.170/o): Vital lipotropic (fat and lipid metabolizing) amino acid that maintains liver health. An anti-stress factor.
• PHENYLALANINE (3.950/o): Stimulates metabolic rate.
• THREONINE (4.170/o): Improves intestinal competence and digestive assimilation.
• TRYPTOPHANE (1.1301o): Increases utilization of B vitamins, improves nerve health.
• VALINE (6.0001o): Stimulates muscle coordination._"

Spirulina Algae (Arthrospira) | Health Information for Fish

There is also a very good study on Oscarfish.com (that I will link you to) that looked at the nutritional values of popular fish food brands and rated them from 0-6. I would look at all these brands you list above and look at how they rated in relation to other brands.

Here you go:
Fish Food Reviews


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Discusluv said:


> Spirulina has many benefits; too many for me to list, but here is a break down online. Ill provide link so you can read the whole article... . . .


Ah, thank you very much. Yes, I will read that info. I do have a spirulina-based food also. I'll certainly add it to the angel's diet as well.
~
That was very helpful. After reading the analysis on the oscar site, I've decided to toss some of my flake foods and buy Hikari, Zoo Med and maybe NLS Cichlid pellet instead. Disappointingly, the site doesn't analyze some of the other foods I have (gold pearls, fluval bug bites) but I can try and give those labels more scrutiny.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My new little angels are very skittish. I had the tank lights off and covered it with a sheet all day yesterday to keep dark. Today decided to still keep the tank light off, just ambient room light while they continue to settle in. Any movement outside the tank and they hide behind the left sponge filter. So due to the lack of lighting the photos are pretty dim.








This isn't even a full tank shot- you can see how small they are! (One of the sticks fell over from my arrangement, but I'll fix it later. Don't want to put my hands in the tank and alarm them right now).








When they do venture out from behind filter, they remain in the back of the tank behind the sticks. 
Both are 'wild-type' silvers. Larger one has normal stripe pattern.








Smaller one has a very faint extra stripe on the body (disappears when the fish goes pale). Maybe a 'zebra'? I hope the little guy catches up in size to the other one.








They spend a lot of time just facing the back wall. Very timid, I guess. For now, I try to avoid making sudden moves outside the tank when I'm in that hallway, to keep from startling them. And I wanted to get in close with the camera but made myself stop hovering, let them be.








They certainly are keeping a close eye on everything around them. I fed them a bit of crushed shrimp pellet this morning, which they ate if it fell right in front of them. Several hours later I gave them live mosquito wigglers- that coaxed them out of their corner! They seemed really to like it- I saw little eager tail wiggles as bites were taken. Afterwards the smaller one was still hanging around the back of the tank when a snail fell from the surface clinging to a bit of frogbit. Snail let go of the leaf, which rose up the front tank glass. The little angel turned and zoomed quick to the front of the tank, to check out that moving leaf.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

*45 for Angels*

I have a group of Leopoldi that behave the same way. Following to learn!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> Ah, thank you very much. Yes, I will read that info. I do have a spirulina-based food also. I'll certainly add it to the angel's diet as well.
> ~
> That was very helpful. After reading the analysis on the oscar site, I've decided to toss some of my flake foods and buy Hikari, Zoo Med and maybe NLS Cichlid pellet instead. Disappointingly, the site doesn't analyze some of the other foods I have (gold pearls, fluval bug bites) but I can try and give those labels more scrutiny.


NLS is an excellent brand. I feed a mixture of NLS Thera A, AlgaeMax ( spirulina based food), and Cichlid pellet tomy geophagus, bipotodoma cupidos and wavarinii, Bolivian rams. The corydoras also eat them with gusto. I still supplement their diet with the freeze-dried blackworms a few times a week. I dont feed them as much to these cichlids as I do my discus.

I also feed NLS freshwater flake because I have about 45 or so tetras in this tank.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Eating is the best sign that your fish are healthy- the best. 
I would also keep an eye out for any internal parasites/hexamita, which angels are particularly prone to. 
This would be facing the back of the tank, white or stringy feces, and in more advanced cases, not eating.
From the photos, although small, they look very healthy.

Also, what is the temperature of tank?
Do you have a background on back glass? If not it may be helpful to put one on to cut down on glare, shadows of people walking by, and reflections.
I would not cover tank with a blanket, they need to get used to you. Sit in front of tank with a book, a cup of coffee etc... Angels are smart cichlids, they will get used to your movements and readily come to tank for food soon.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yep- they ate four times today (small amounts- shrimp pellet, live mosquito larvae, spirulina mini pellets, protein formula flake). Only on the first feeding did I deliberately let food fall to the bottom. It was pretty funny to see the kuhli loaches swarm about during the other feedings, probably frustrated they could smell the food but not find it in usual places. Evening feed I gave flake, and while the angels delicately took it from the surface, the kuhlis gradually darted around higher and higher in the tank, until a good number of them were also feeding at surface. Smart buggers.

I've been spending a good amount of time sitting in front of the tank. I just love to watch them. Already they are feeling braver. 

The tank is at 78-79°, pH is 7.4. I saw them poop today and it was normal-looking.

I only had it covered the first day, because they seemed so frightened I hoped it would help them feel safe and calm while they were getting used to new surroundings. No, there's no background on the tank. I didn't really want to add one- I'll think about it though.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*angel pics!*

My little angels are quickly becoming confident in their new home- out all over the tank most of the day. When I walk by they dart to the back wall, then turn and approach front again. They're already starting to realize _I_ mean food.








































They like the tangle of roots, and hang out a lot just under the surface plants
















The larger, standard one seems to have something on its right side? where the lateral line goes across flank, there's a vertical mark , and viewing the fish from rear, it looks like something is on it there- torn scale? parasite? I can't tell. I hope it's not something to worry about. Maybe I should dose with something anti-parasitic.
















Just eaten- slightly bulgy tummies! I've offered them nearly all the foods I have, now- and a few more are coming from online order soon. They like crushed shrimp pellets, the protein flake, bug bites, spriulina bites. They spat out betta micro pellets so I won't bother to offer that again. Ate frozen mysis/brine shrimp mix, and bloodworms- but only if those are small enough. Liked NLS pellets but I have to crush those up, the size is too large for them still. _Ecstatic_ about live mosquito wigglers- for those they will hang around front of the tank looking for more. They also eat the Gold Pearls eagerly. I also tried giving them some very small red wigglers (from my vermicompost bin -well cleaned-) they following the twitching worms down as sank through the water column, but just stared and didn't bite.








My kuhlis go nuts when I offer food to the angels (three or four times a day right now). Once a day I deliberately drop a sinking food for them, before I feed the angels at top- that keeps the kuhlis busy down below. Tiger has figured out he can slide his body between the stem structure of frogbit and hang out at surface to find food, now. Some of them also now look for food that drops onto the anubias leaves which the angels have missed- great because their activity keeps it cleaner of debris as well. This guy moved right when I snapped the photo.








Full tank shot:


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Um, I think I've been overfeeding- it's hard to judge how much the little guys eat. Maybe three times is plenty, and I shouldn't give so much. Especially with the frozen foods, I'm new to using those. Water looks clear, Ammonia tests at zero and Nitrates less than 10ppm, but the larger angel I noticed today has black areas on the caudal fin edge and it looks a bit ragged in a few spots. I wonder if water quality has gone down, doing another 25% wc even though I just did one yesterday.

Good news is I looked super close when he was near the front glass (not so shy anymore!) and that mark on the flank appears to be gone now.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*named my angels*

I did another water change this morning, 35%. I propped up the fallen stick, and rinsed one of the filter sponges. I was a concerned one of the angels has dark on the edge of its tail, and keeps twitching like something irritates it- shaking its head, or the fins (like my cat does when something tickles his ear). I think I was at fault not rinsing the frozen food before I put it in the tank- I'd just been thawing it in a bit of tank water and siphoning out to drop in the tank (with a straw). Now I'll give it a quick rinse, too, before feeding. Water definitely clearer now, and the angels seem more relaxed. They're also showing better color- stripes bolder.








I keep thinking of the smaller, extra-striped one as Zee.








Which, coincidentally, can have the following meanings: _The ability to see something so clearly that it reflects the undisputable truth, a total experience combining all the senses in one_ *or* _one who is like a god_ *or* _dazzling looks and influential personality_ but that's all from urban dictionary so who knows. I was just thinking Zee for _zebra_, and because it sounds like the name of something little.

I'm calling the other one Aaya (or Aiya).
















Harder to get a closeup of this fish, definitely more camera-shy and moves away quickly. So most of the individual pics I try for turn out like this. (Zee comes out sooner and moves faster towards food- I though at first just hungrier, but maybe the little one is bolder too). 








Aaya is a mother goddess in Akkadian mythology (ancient Mesopotamia), also can mean _someone beautiful and amazing in every possible way_. Spelled with one less a, it's a Japanese name meaning _colorful_ or _beautiful_ and an Old German word meaning _sword_. Spelled Aiya, it's a Hebrew name meaning _bird_. Either way I think it fits.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Beautiful names! I use tweezers to feed bloodworms. I control the rate they go into the tank that way. Brine shrimp, mysis, whatever. I can target feed a little better that way


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I do have a pair of small tweezers I use for fish-only stuff. I could pluck out the bloodworms individual, but the brine and mysis shrimps are so small, it seems easier to use the straw. They were a lot more eager to eat the frozen food this evening (I didn't have any leftover from the fourth of a cube I thawed, so my betta and paradise fishes got none!). The angels nearly bump heads when zoom after the same bloodworm, it's funny. They come up front and keep watching for me to drop a little more in. I'm starting to use the _tap-tap_ signal for feeding like I've done with my tetras, to call them to the front top of the tank. I might just be able to use a half or whole cube at one feeding, soon- which will be a lot easier. I find it messy to thaw a portion of a cube.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I was mildly alarmed this morning when I saw Zee kept holding tail pinched closed. And Aiya, when pale (from sleep or being startled) had a few spots on the dorsal fin that still remain dark. But when colored up, those spots are white against the black stripe. I looked very close and it doesn't _seem_ to be something attached- just a mark on the fin that doesn't change color with the fish.

When in doubt, change water- so I did. My husband is starting to get slightly annoyed at fish buckets being around all the time. Every day feels like a fish day, now! Aiya appears to feel fine. Zee stopped pinching the tail after the water change. 

They both come eagerly to the front when realize it's food time, and they sure love the new offering. I bought online Aquatic Foods Ultra Cichlid Gro Flakes and Hikari Discus Bio-Gold (pellets). This morning I gave them the flake- those pieces are huge! Three crumbled flakes was plenty, they looked stuffed. And wow, they snarfed it down fast. Tomorrow I'll give them the Bio-Gold.

I've got a little routine started. Mornings I give them one of the dry, prepared foods. Midday they get either Gold Pearls or live mosquito larvae. Evenings I give them one of the frozen foods. Today I tried them on a new frozen mix and they really liked that too. I don't know if it matters what kind of food they get in what part of the day? but I'm glad to see them gobble it all down so fast!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Aiya, front center (Zee nearby on left had just turned away)


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Looking great! Sounds like the Angels are settling in well.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thank you! Yes, I think they're doing well. Not startling as much, and beginning to come up expectantly to top front when I'm near the tank, not just when they smell the food in the water. It's lovely to see them.

Odd thing, last night for the first time I fed them this frozen food 'Emerald Entrée' which has as main ingredients Brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, plankton, krill, spinach, romaine lettuce, red-leaf lettuce, spirulina. They did not eat all the parts, but that's okay because my kuhlis went nuts for it too. And the angels started to show blue-green color across the top of their heads. Ever seen that? 

I'll have to get a picture of it, if it happens again. This morning their color is normal again. I wonder if they have some Philipine blue in their genetics or was it simply caused by the food?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*did something go wrong*

I thought my angels were old enough to be okay fasting one day a week, and I don't want to overfeed the tank... so yesterday I skipped feeding, and this morning did a 25% wc, rinsing half the filter sponge. This morning I saw with dismay that Zee, the smaller angelfish, doesn't have a straight dorsal fin anymore.

You can see Aiya here in the foreground, looks great (I think I even see the top filament on caudal fin starting to grow back).








Zee- smaller one on right here- dorsal is bent at top. I am upset, because I've read this is usually due to the fish growing up in crowded conditions. Do I have too many kuhlis, am I overfeeding, am I not changing the water often enough. Argh.








Aiya on the left: dorsal nice and straight-








Zee: not straight. Extra thought: maybe a stick fell on him, and bent the fin rays? (sometimes they slide)








full tank shot:


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## lazy999 (Aug 2, 2018)

Nicely done


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Tried to get a few photos of them today. They are growing fast- can see it especially if I compare the size in earlier full-tank shots. Here they're both in the picture:








In this one Zee is just behind Aiya 








They've both grown a lot-








but Aiya is definitely the more stunning fish








I couldn't get a nice detailed photo though, because now I have the same problem as with my paradise fishes- they are either facing the camera begging from me, or shy away from the light when I press the shutter button to focus, and move off.








They still get startled easily, but obviously recognize me and come up front expectantly when I walk near the tank. It's nice to be appreciated!








I know which one I will choose to keep, if it comes to a day when they start fighting for territory . . .


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I think you might have a pair


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

mbkemp said:


> I think you might have a pair


That sure would be nice- but how can you tell? Would they already be fighting at this point, if they didn't like each other? I don't think they're full size yet. They do often swim around the tank side by side, mirroring each other's movements, so I certainly hope so!


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

*45 for Angels*

It is difficult to be certain until vents show. Then it is easy. An Angelfish pro gave a drawing once that I can’t describe. The drawing was of the area in front of the anal fin. 


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

From the pictures the fish with the bent fin is female I think


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*angels on black*

I'm thinking of changing their names- because they seem to be acting like a pair, and if the other one is female, this stunner is probably a male and Aiya doesn't sound right anymore. I haven't though of a new one, yet.








The supposed female, I'm now called Skye. Lovely blue highlights showing up in her dorsal and anal fins. There's a dark mark behind each eye- which only shows up sometimes- makes me think of Egyptian kohl.








I've added black backdrop to the tank. My angels are much less skittish now, and the filters fade into the background.








I dropped their feeding to twice a day- though still generous enough they get rounded bellies. I'm still doing twice-weekly 35% water changes, and I usually rinse one of the sponges at that time. Skye has almost caught up in size. Of course, I failed to get a photo of them side-by-side _in focus_.








Even when their stripes wash out- sorry they get alarmed so easy- I think they're beautiful. I couldn't decide which of these photos I like better, so here's both.
















Alhough this photo came out totally blurred, I really like something about it. 








If they turn head or tail to me, they vanish among the sticks. Sometimes I have to stand still in front of the tank for a moment and can't see them until they move towards me, drifting to the top ever hopeful. I like that.








more pictures- of the plants- coming soon!


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Very nice!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*from 09/24-*

My angels are still so shy. I don't know if too many kids rapped on the tank while they were little at the fish store, or is it something I have done. Accidentally squeaked my finger on the glass one time, and they fled from me for days after. Took out all the sticks the other day- reasons below- and now they shy away if I raise my hand to put food in. Half the time they are pale like this-








It makes me sad. And now the larger, handsome fish has a bit of gill curl- you can see the edge slightly lifted, light reflecting off it in this pic.








I tested the water- zero ammonia or nitrites but surprised to find 20ppm nitrates. Is it my fault. This past week I was doing 25% wc instead of 33%- and I was a day late with one of them. I thought that would be fine since I was feeding less- they don't seem as hungry anymore- but maybe not. Went back to doing a 33% wc. Also concerned the outer layer of sticks was breaking down- maybe that was adding too much organics to the water? I lifted them out one by one, rubbed the dark mushy layer off, and returned only half to the tank.








So now they don't have as much cover- but I've seen plenty video of angel pairs in completely bare tanks, who are not shy at all. I thought having mine in a secluded hallway would be best for them, but maybe that means when foot traffic does come through, it startles them? If my youngest comes to talk to me in the downstairs hall and starts gesturing with her arms, the fish panic. I sit in front of the tank as often as I can, having my lunch or doing some small task with my hands, can't tell if it helps. In all that time I spent taking photos for this post, my nicest angel only colored up once:








They aren't as eager to eat, now. I thought because not growing as fast. They don't seem to like the brine or mysis shrimps, but still snap quickly at beef heart and bloodworms, and especially the cichlid flake and hikari bio-gold. Still won't eat NLS pellets unless I crush them first.








this bit of anubias just drifted up during water change and got stuck in the pothos roots, I thought it was funny so I left it there








I added more plants. Took all the java ferns out of my other tanks and moved them in here. Look nicer already, while the narrow anubias are starting to turn yellow. Maybe I will have to reduce to fewer plant species, the ones that do okay (buces).
















I took windelov ferns off the clay arch in the 33, re-tied onto a stone and wedged into a crevice in the driftwood. Curious to see if it prefers this tank just like the java ferns appear to.








And the last change was with sponges. Read in some reviews that the older style Hydro sponge, gray with finer pores, actually holds more of the mulm in it, while it kind of falls out of the newer, coarser black sponges ('pro' version). Yeah, mulm always scatters out when I pick them up for rinsing. Realized the Hydro I that I originally got for the betta tank, was that older type, and it's the same width as the two Hydro III's I already have in this tank. The fittings match, so I simply stacked the Hydro I ontop one of the coarse sponges. Want to see if it does hold more crud in. I increased the flow through the filters, as well. I can't tell yet if the tank is staying cleaner-








if I do change out sponges (replacements are just a few dollars), and still have this problem with excess mulm even though I'm feeding less, I cleaned up the sticks and the leaves will soon be gone- I guess I'll have to ditch using sponges and put the canister filter on the tank. I don't want my angels to have more problems. Maybe I will find some fake stick decor, that won't break down. Or some tall plants instead.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

My Leopoldi act the same way. Are yours wild? 


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

No- I'm pretty sure domestic stock. From LFS- no special price tag, and my larger angel has the wider dorsal fin, which I think is a trait breeders developed?


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I think your angels are beautiful! That nice wide dorsal is what it should be. 

Mine will come for food and then run from it. Maybe that is what they do? My experience is all Leopoldi 


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I've switched to using the finer sponges. The tank _is_ cleaner.








Still have the coarse 'pro' sponges temporarily sitting in the background, for bacteria transfer. And I have prior pieces of clay pot, tiny spare sponge filters and extra hydro I sponge tucked behind the driftwood out of sight. A reservoir of the good bacteria, I guess you could say. If I ever need a QT in a hurry, I'll just pull those pieces out and jump-start an empty tank.








I know there's still mulm settling on things, but it's not as much as before, and I find it more tolerable since I don't see stuff drifting around in the water column all the time (only when the kuhlis stir things up). Even though I was sick this past week so skipped a water change day, the nitrates stayed below ten. (I've noticed however, that the frogbits do better if I only change 25% at a time. I think otherwise the nutrients are just too low for them). Here's a few pics








Windelov fern on the rock on the driftwood. Too soon to tell if it's happier in here, but it's definitely growing out new leaves already!








Looking down into the tank- can see the buce 'green wavy' on the rocks. And a leaf I accidentally tore with the siphon hose on the right








New leaf emerging on the java fern! There's quite a few, and more fiddleheads all the time.








I thinned out this anubias thicket a bit- moved some into my 20H tetra tank.








The tank is now sparse on driftwood. I found the angels acting very skittish earlier in the week, and two of the sticks knocked over. I guess when the fish dart behind them, they tend to knock some aside. Maybe that is what's always frightening them. I pulled out all the sticks that tend to fall down, and rearranged the last three so they prop each other up (should have been more careful to do that when I first set it all up). They now have more room to freely swim behind the driftwood sticks, instead of pressing against the back wall. It's too soon to tell yet, but I think after a few days of this new arrangement, the angels seem less nervous.








Now I have trouble getting a good side view photo-








because they usually face me, watching sharp for food offerings








(note the zebra nerite in the background of above pic- my apple snail finally died, and I moved in here the last zebra nerite from the paradise fish tank)








My larger angel- he doesn't have a single name- I always call him Mr. Beautiful, or Gorgeous, or Handsome- as in "hey, there Handsome, are you hungry?" or "why hello, Gorgeous"- it looks like his left gill cover is receding a bit. The one that's curled. Here for comparison- the normal one, and then the other side. When the fish breathes, I can see the edge of the gill flutter on that short side. It doesn't show red, though. I don't know if this is genetic, or because tank conditions haven't been perfect.... I read somewhere it's maybe caused by the fish growing up too fast. Oh, probably I shouldn't have been stuffing them with three feedings a day when they first came in!
















and I'm sorry to say but my beautiful Skye, I wish she (I'm guessing which is male/female, but it's easier to say he/she than_ it_, so...) didn't have this really dark mark behind her eye. It's a heavy blot. And the angle of her lower jaw makes it look like her nose turns down. I just don't find her as attractive as Mr. Beautiful. The Gorgeous angel also has dark mark behind the eye, but his isn't obvious all the time, and it's not as pronounced. Skye looks like someone punched her and gave her a black eye.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I moved crypt balansae in here out of my 20H. I think they will do better in here with the warmer temperature, and this tank needs some taller plants. Not yet willing to give up leaf litter for a substrate bed, I planted the crypts into a container. Used a slotted plastic box strawberries had come in, with more holes punched in the side for water flow. Put a root tab on the bottom before I planted the crypts in a mix of gravel and safe-t-sorb (siphoned out of the 20H).








I thought it would look too obvious there's a clear box of gravel sitting in the middle of my tank, but actually it hides nicely behind the anubias roots and is flanked by the stones with buce 'green wavy' so not too noticeable.
















Glimpse of it from above, short end of the tank. There's four rhizome pieces in there, with a few leaves each.








It's too early to tell if the crypts will go through melt, but already a few of the leaves seem to be standing up straighter. If they do well, I might find a way to plant my aponogeton capuronii in here, too. It's not looking too happy right now in the unheated, un-fertilized window tank.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*from yesterday*

I'm really pleased with how my crypt balansae is doing in here. It's getting visibly taller each day, obviously happy with conditions. Encourages me to find a way to move in my aponogeton capuronii.

But now my angels have been fighting. Agression has been building up gradually and I did not take the signs seriously, hoping they were just sizing each other up, working out differences. For a while I have noticed, now and then, that one or the other would have scraped scales, and last week Skye had a small tear in her tail fin. I dismissed it, thinking they were just getting bumped by falling sticks. But I've fixed that now; even when I put my hands in the tank to rearrange things and position the crypt balansae, I no longer knock anything over.

The other day I noticed that the angels were making little rushes at each other. Sometimes I sit in front of the tank when it's not feeding time. The angels come up expectantly, and if I don't offer food, they seem to get frustrated- moving back and forth across the front glass with sharper jerks. So this one day I sat there and couldn't tell if the angels were turning and darting to move across the front and happening to get near each other, or if they were actually aiming at each other.

Then one day I saw them going up and down sticks, picking stuff off with their mouths. I wondered if they were hungry, or was it cleaning behavior to prepare a spawning site? Mr. Beautiful has been looking rather stout, and doesn't seem to eat more than Skye, so I wonder if he's really female. They were also doing brief displays at each other, holding their fins out more stiffly, kind of quivering broadside and puffing out the gills. It was subtle, but I saw it. Showing off to each other, or vying for dominance? I'm not sure. I still don't know if I have a same-sex pair, or a male and female. (I did not see any lip-locking, so I think this is actual fighting and not mating precursor).

Yesterday I saw clear evidence of deliberate harm. In the morning (day after a regular water change) I found that both fish had tears in their fins, and Skye's dorsal is almost completely ripped in half. They both have scuff marks and scrapes on their flanks,
















and Skye has a bite mark on top of her head, and a dark red blotch between eye and mouth, like a bruise. Did the other fish ram her, or did she flee and run into something? Dismayed, I watched them closely. Skye obviously has more injuries, and Mr. Beautiful appears to be the aggressor. I saw Beautiful turn his (or her) body _horizontal_ and zoom across the tank to jab at Skye.
















I am pretty sure now, they don't like each other. Skye is thinner than Beautiful- I wonder if the more aggressive angel is subtly keeping her from eating as much, or if she is thinner due to stress, or if Beautiful is larger because a _her_, and gravid.

And my issue is what to do about it. I can't really put a divider in this tank. A fishkeeping friend suggested I do extra water changes, rearrange the decor, and maybe add dither fish, to alleviate the aggression. I'd rather actually re-home this fish and try with another, but it is still discouraging. The only other place I can safely put Skye while I find her a new home is in the 20H- the exact reason I kept it running, but now it's full of tetras. . .


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## Frank158 (Oct 1, 2013)

Sorry about the Angel aggression. Are you sure you have a male and female? Just asking because I have not read through every post in your thread. Perhaps you have 2 males?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

@Frank158, not sure it was just a guess. The one I thought might be female pooped a lot today and the belly slimmed down. So probably wasn't cleaning a site but just picking algae or ramshorn snails off the wood.

I separated them. Sky's injuries appear more serious when I look close. The bruising on the face is less red, but I'm worried the mouth is damaged- fish can't close all the way. Attempts to eat but spits a lot of it out. I did a water change this morning, not much else but wait and see if it heals. Skye hides behind the plants, but already frequently comes out to the front of the tank with stripes bold, so I think feels relieved to be away from the other angel. I can't show you a closeup because he is very camera shy right now, but if I sit on the floor he comes out and cautiously cruises around the tank. I put him in my 20H (after moving out the tetras into a spare 10g, and the shrimps into my betta tank). 








Mr. Beautiful is now alone in the 45 (kuhlis don't count as company).








The fin tears healed up in a day (!), but they still have marks from bites on their sides. My aggressive angel, I thought it would also look more relaxed once Skye was gone. But all day his stripes have been washed out, and he moves away when I walk by the tank- not dashing away frantically like before- drifts to the opposite side deliberately or turns to face the wall. (Too late, I learned how to turn off the red light that flashes on the front of my camera- so the fish doesn't flinch when I take a picture). I wonder if feels pain from the bite injuries, or was overly stressed when I caught the other angel out of the tank? (I didn't _chase_ it around but just followed behind with one net until it 'herded' into another, larger net. Still, I know it freaked them out).









Plant stuff seems inconsequential to note now, but earlier in the week I brought over a few more from my betta tank. I did a big trim of windelov fern. Didn't glue or tie down any pieces, just stuck them behind the rock and wedged under the end of the anubias rhizome here.








Pulled a few buce 'isabelle' and 'blue bell'. Stuck these in between the two driftwood chunks. Right now the bits of gravel their roots hold keep them down, but the kuhlis like to go through that crevice and I find them knocked loose sometimes. I hope soon enough their roots will grab the actual wood, and they'll stay in place.








One entire buce 'selena'. It got dusted with a bit of mulm here, but does add a lovely blue note to that side of the tank.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I'm sorry about your angel aggression. I have heard you can keep a breeding pair in as small as a 29g tank, but if they are fighting, they probably need a good 4' of tank.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

After several days apart, both my angelfishes seem a lot calmer. Skye looks content solo in the 20H- doesn't hide as much as I expected (the tank is right by my front door). For a day after the separation I was concerned because although the fish was able to eat, never moved the mouth -as if stuck in position half-open- and gill movement very subtle. However now it uses the mouth again, although still can't close it all the way. Looks like it might be okay.
















Mr. Beautiful, I'm not sure what's up with that fish. Still often has washed-out stripes and startles easy.
















The day after I split them up, Mr. Beautiful seemed very nervous while feeding- would make quick dashes to grab food from the surface and dart away again, even splashing water out of the tank he was so hasty. Colored up better when tank lights were off for the day. Next morning I went to sit and observe the angelfish while the tank lights were revving up. I sat nearby like I often do and while Mr. Beautiful came up to the front, stripes washed out. After a while my cat came over and walked about in front of the tank (ignoring the fish). Angelfish watched the cat. Cat came over to me and I began petting him, in long strokes across the body. The movement of my arm made the angelfish freak out. It dashed away back and forth across the back wall in a panic even bumped against the tank wall several times I could _hear_ it a small thunk.








I don't know why the fish is still uneasy. Water parameters are fine (nitrates at ten). Maybe I need to remove the leaf litter? or do the kuhlis bother it? (although it doesn't seem to notice, never goes pale when they swarm around the tank). Maybe I need to put more floaters in (the frogbit is still sparse) or add more tall plants (crypt balansae one leaf is nearly half the tank height, but it will take a while to fill in).

Today it was better- bold stripes more often than not, came up to greet me and beg, didn't act nervous while feeding. Maybe it just took more time to get over the stress of its objectionable companion being caught, I don't nkow.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Big news is that a week ago I pulled my aponogeton capuroni out of the window tank- and split its bulb in half- yikes.








I planted it into a plastic tray with slotted sides near the bottom and extra pinholes, and fed with a root tab.








Moved it to the back of my 45, next to the other tray that holds the crypts balansae.
















after a week it's settling in: new leaf already! It's just to the left of stick in the first pic, center behind the anubias leaf in the second:
















Hard to see, but from top view, the other apono half is also sprouting a new leaf- it's just to the right of that central pale anubias leaf in this pic. I was worried how well the plant would take being split- if the bulb would rot. But it seems to be responding to the division and change really well. (I cut all the older, largest leaves off that anubias so I could have a better view of the apono and keep an eye on it)








The other question is what does my fish think. I thought I would see him (her?) gliding between the narrow ruffled plant leaves, but for now Mr. Beautiful just swims _above_ all the plant foliage to get around to the opposite corner.
















Fish has still been shy- pale and hiding sometimes- but more often colored up with stripes now. I made a few changes to try and avoid startling it so much. I shifted the light strip back on the lid, so it sits just behind the hinge and I don't have to move it every time I open the top. I think the light moving (and sliding sound) used to scare the angels a lot. Also when I come downstairs if I remember, I pause before walking through the hallway, so the fish can see and recognize me. If Mr. Beautiful notices me first, swims to the front glass with an eager tail wiggle. If I walk in suddenly, used to panic and dash all around. It seems to be helping- this week only once did I see the angelfish panic (it was the day my teenager ran down the stairs in a hurry to do her laundry).

My husband asked me why the fish turns to us at the tank front, instead of keeping its body sideways, are the eyes actually on the front of its head? he said. I pointed out how the fish can rotate them, so if its eyes are rotated front, it has binocular vision (I'm guessing) after all, it is a predator. Here's a funny pic of that front view.








BTW, is my angel a bit fat? It looks wider in girth, even though I am feeding it less now- seems close to mature size. I keep thinking it must be eating too much, or developing eggs if its female.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I found a nerite in distress- stuck in the space under the fishing line that ties down these buce 'brownie ghost'








it's high time to cut those lines anyway, I'm sure the plants cling on their own now. I reached in with scissors. The snail immediately started moving off. It had scratched its shell on the ridge of dragon stone.









Other bit news: the younger leaves on my aponogetons aren't growing straight. Curve down at midpoint. Also anubias leaves are looking pale between the veins. I still have a bottle of Leaf Zone fertilizer way back from when I started doing tanks and didn't know how limited it provided- but thought if they need some iron, might help. Dosed the tank yesterday, just to see.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

How soft is your water?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

It's not soft. ph 7.5, I measured the general hardness once can't recall now but there's always dried crusty stuff on the edges of my tank rims.

Although maybe the leaf litter I put in there made it softer? I tested it soon after I added leaves and it wasn't affected much, maybe it changed over time and I didn't realize


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*I got my "dither fish"*

When I was a kid I always wanted to keep black skirt (widow) tetras with angelfish. But I was advised the tetras would nip, so I never did. Now years later whenever visiting a fish store I always gravitate back to the tanks that have black skirt tetras- something about them still catches my eye. I've learned it's a numbers game and that black skirts are actually less likely to nip than serpaes, _if _you have enough of them... . . . so yesterday I finally gave away my group of serpaes and brought home six black skirts- they're going into the tenner QT for a while








They all look pretty darn healthy, with a nice shine- but don't stop moving for a minute- even at rest they kind of twitch constantly so my camera can't catch a good picture in the dim light. I tried anyway-


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well, I recently wrote out some thoughts here how likely is this to work out but didn't get a single response so I guess nobody knows, or nobody would try it. I still have one angelfish, Skye, in my 20H alone- recently added a nerite snail to clean algae and uneaten fish food- sometimes Skye misses a bite. Here the fish is slightly alarmed at the appearance of my camera-








and then calmed down a bit-








I guess if a re-introduction doesn't work- and it probably won't- I'll have to re-home this fish. I don't want to keep it alone in a 20g for its whole life. Meannwhile I am trying a few more things to make the downstairs tank calmer for angelfish. I just learned that philodendron is one of the few houseplants that will thrive growing in water- if not forever, at least for a very long time. That's good news- I've already pulled a few pothos stems that were starting to rot on the lower section (expected that to happen). 








I've added some philodendron cuttings to each end of the tank. It has a very pretty, trailing habit and if grew draping down the short ends of the tank, I hope it might make the angelfish feel more sheltered. Not sure if the dim light in the hall will be enough for it, though. I think it likes brighter light than pothos. I have the heartleaf variety.








I took the last wood sticks out. They are constantly covered in a layer of soft mulm, which also coats all the pothos roots tangled nearby. I guess the plants are happy- absorbing nutrients from that mulm- but I started to think maybe it's excess mulm from the rotting wood layers, not from the leaf litter?








Also curious to see if, without the wood shedding stuff into the water column, will the roots strike down to the leaf litter on the tank floor, and look more tidy? Mr. Beautiful still finds them useful shelter.








Not sure if my aponogeton capuronii are going to make it. One has grown out two new leaves, which stay relatively straight.








The other one, its new leaf is still curved, it hasn't grown any more, and the bulb accidentally got pulled up some, now I can easily see all the roots- which look dead. Bulb is definitely rotting away. No new white roots. Doesn't look good.








At least the crypt balansae are doing well!








And I definitely notice response in the plants, since I started dosing potassium and iron- windelov fern stands up straighter, has shed some old leaves and growing quite a few new ones.








Buce 'brownie ghost' on the dragon stone is growing new leaves from its creeping rhizome- see far right, just above the rock surface.








But - you can see how dirty it is with particles in the water. Even my husband noticed the brown drifting mess- he said "um, I think your filter isn't working well or something- there's lots of stuff flying around the tank." kind of embarassing... . . ! yeah, it was the day I needed to do a water change- but really I need less of whatever's producing all the mess, or to hook my eheim canister back up on here.








For the fish' sake, I also hung a length of dark cloth over the short end of the tank that's closest to the stairs- seems that when people come down those stairs suddenly into the hallway, is what frightens the angel most. Since hanging the cloth, I've noticed Mr. Beautiful- while still often pale, hiding or facing the back wall- doesn't crash around the tank in terror anymore. At least, I haven't seen it happen this week. 

I thought about moving the tank upstairs- but I really don't have a good location for it, except near my fireplace, which does get use in the winter, and I keep feeling doubtful about that. So really trying to make this work- whether it's more plants, hiding the view to the stairs, increasing the filtration, adding dither fish- one thing at a time- surely I can get this angel to feel well? 

All my floaters died, btw. I took a few frogbits out and dropped them in the window tank and my betta's tenner just in case they would live there and multiply again- they died out in the 45 when I added the aponogeton and started dosing Leaf Zone, for some reason. Hornwort died in here before that. Trying to think of another floater - I'd like dwarf water lettuce, but don't know if it would do well in the conditions- or maybe I'll try a lily bulb... . . .


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## Saxtonhill (Dec 28, 2012)

Enjoy those black skirt tetras  I've got a large school of black skirt tetras in my 70 gallon tank. They've been there for about three years. I really like them; they're easy and school well and are very hardy. I have seven black neon tetras in with them and 5 Aeneas cory cats. No angel fish though


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*A week ago:* My angel Skye in the 20H is completely healed- lips close almost perfectly now. Begs like a puppy for attention (food). The other one still often looks pale- but quit bolting around tank in a panic after I added window screen mesh across top of tank to diffuse the light more. Also my husband is more careful to walk down the stairs slow instead of in a rush. I did extra water changes on the tank mid-week, to take out the leaf litter. There was just waaaay too much of it, the breakdown of pin oak leaves (finally decaying after six months) caused so much mulm in the water. After four wc of 30% each, it's now almost clean. I will add a bit more leaf litter once I've done a little rescape, but just a few here and there.

Introduced the six black skirt tetras to angelfish tank. Floating:








Mr. Beautiful kept a close eye on them. He has much better color now- although I had the lights dimmed for the rest of the day, so my camera performed poorly.
















I watched them most of the day. Beautiful has not attempted to chase the tetras- in fact seems wary of them. Tetras make no attempt to nip at the angelfish- they move quick out of the way if he approaches. They aren't hiding either, and have great color- I think they're immediately comfortable in here. They hang out mid water column, and are already displaying to each other, shimmying side-by-side shoving water at each other to vy for position in the hierarchy again.








I promptly went out and got four more tetras to put through quarantine in the 10g while it is still amply cycled. These guys look good, too- and one of them is full-grown, nearly twice the size of the others. My hope is once I get ten of them in there, the angelfish will feel more secure. He did seem calmer today, until I walked by with a broom to sweep the floor. Freaked out and crashed into corners again. Sigh.
















*
Today:* There is still no trouble between M. Beautiful and the black skirt tetras- and I think their presence is having a positive effect! Angelfish is beginning to act much calmer. Half the time he comes eagerly to the front waggling tail in anticipation when I walk downstairs- other times he still startles or turns away, but doesn't go pale as often, doesn't crash around in a panic anymore.








Tank seems a lot busier than I ever wanted, especially when the kuhlis smell food and dash all over the place searching it out. In a week I'll add the four more tetras out of QT. Gave up on my idea of having this just sticks and leaf litter. Starting to think of adding more plants: anubias coffefolia instead of anubias lanceolata, and I'd like to try my crypt wendtii in here, maybe some vals (in another planter) and attempt floaters again- dwarf water lettuce?
















Here's the tank I'm not proud of- 20H where Skye lives alone (snails don't count as company)








Thinking I'll move all the anubias lanceolata in here if I do take them out of the 45- lighting is fine for it. This angelfish is always eager to greet a person- so much I have trouble getting a photo of it broadside.
















I'm still going to attempt a re-introduction a week or so after moving the last of the tetras into the 45.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My angelfish is settling in with the new companions. Rarely looks pale or frightened now. Still occasionally will startle and move off when I walk down into the hall, but he doesn't crash around like used to. I'm very glad. I give a bit more at feeding times now, and scatter it across the tank instead of dropping in one spot at surface- so all the fishes can have some. This makes M. Beautiful a lot more active- swimming eagerly around to snag the largest bites- instead of leisurely plucking food from the surface. The blackskirt tetras are getting a little bolder, darting in near the angel after food themselves. 

I want to add a few more tetras but I made a mistake when few weeks ago I got those four more- - at the time there were a few other fish in the store (diff tank) that looked like were starting to get ich. That should have made me leave, not buy fish. But I did. Sure glad I quarantined like usual. Few days after bringing them home, two of them suddenly had white spots, all over. I started treating the QT tank every day with a 25% wc and dosing meds- I tried using Tetra Ick Guard which has victoria green and acriflavine. Being careful to wash my hands and use a siphon hose that's just for the QT tank.

They appeared to be getting better and I was feeling hopeful for recovery, until the day I forgot to replug the heater in after doing a larger wc- fifty percent- because I thought the treatment was done. Temp dropped that night, in the morning I saw it and plugged the heater back in immediately- but all four tetras had lots of white spots then. They started to look lethargic, and get fin rot, which advanced rapidly. I did a large wc and dosed meds again- used Fungus Guard which has a higher concentration of acriflavine and victoria green (as far as I can tell) because my only other med on hand is the Ick Attack...

It was a poor idea to have new fishes in QT over holiday season- I get distracted with so much going on, do the wc late or can't find meds fast enough...

and they didn't make it. All four died on the 24th. I emptied, cleaned the QT tank and sterilized all the items. Only then did I remembered tetras are among the sensitive fish, I should have used the medication at half strength. Dang.
~
I'm not ready to get more fish yet, but made something new for the tank. I sewed some basket containers out of plastic canvas (Unfortunately, I had my camera on the wrong setting when took these photos, so they are awfully small)








for the crypts and aponogetons. The previous containers I had fashioned from strawberry baskets weren't working out for me- after time the plastic turns opaque white which is an eyesore, and the gravel kept leaking out the bottom slots. Already I prefer my handmade baskets- they blend in very well with the background, the gravel stays in place, and I can make them any dimension I want.








Here's M. Beautiful- still pretty chill with the tetras. Only once this week did he 'crash around' when someone walked downstairs- and I can't tell why.








glimpse of a kuhli- this one is Sassy








happy java fern in the front corner- since I took this pic a few days ago, it has sprouted a new fiddlehead!








full tank:


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

That’s so strange your beauty is so freaked out. Especially with dither fish with him. Beautiful tank though! It’s got a really soothing natural look to it.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Little Soprano said:


> That’s so strange your beauty is so freaked out. Especially with dither fish with him. Beautiful tank though! It’s got a really soothing natural look to it.


Thank you! Yeah- I've been trying to figure it out- I think part is because he got frightened badly by one of my kids when he was small. And by my husband rushing through the hallway suddenly. I do want to add more dither fish- his behavior and color is markedly improved since the tetras went in. I'm going to re-set up and cycle my QT tank this week, get a few more... . . .


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I bought a few pieces of mopani wood at the pet store yesterday, tied some plants onto them. Anubias afzelli and congensis on these-








Buces 'selena' and 'emerald green' on another-








Buces 'isabelle' and 'blue belle' on a third.








But later I was dissatisfied with this piece, and wanted more little mopani chunks for the smaller buces and java ferns. I want to take out all the rocks, have just mopani wood anchoring stuff down. Today I pullled the two smallest mopani pieces, and used my hand saw on them. Made a bunch of smaller pieces, tied java ferns, windelov ferns, buce 'green wavy', 'emerald green' and 'brownie ghost' on them (across the front of the tank). Everything is on dark wood now. So if I slide stuff around, it doesn't scratch the bottom glass. And it looks more uniform, with nice dark contrast.

With exception of the planter baskets. I added another- this narrow one has vallisneria- loose ones out of the paradise fish tank, I'm giving another chance in here.








This is what it looked like yesterday with the new wood added. Pothos roots got a bit of trim. Happens to be one of the few photos where I caught most of the black skirt tetras in focus.








Today with everything on mopani- it's a bit murky from tannins (even though I boiled the wood and poured water off three times) and stuff getting stirred up. I'll try for better photos soon.








Notice there's a brighter green plant on the left, it's two tall stems behind the mopani- the last pieces of water wisteria I have. Obviously slowly failing in my 20H, and the pieces I planted in the window tank died. So I moved them in here to see if they do better.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

A few days ago my QT tank cycled- at least I _thought_ it had (I tested the water three days in a row, had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, over 40ppm nitrates), so I did the big wc and got four more black skirt tetras from a different chain pet store, next town over. I don't go to this store often because it's far, but I've always had healthy fish from them. These new tetras are half the size of my first six, and they are not shy at all. Full colors and hanging around the front of the tank eager for me to feed them on day one. I surmise they have been treated well.








They looked so good I didn't think to test the water that day, but did yesterday. Yikes, a nitrite spike. Small amount of ammonia- less than 0.25 ppm but still discernable. I did a 40% wc last night, and another this morning. Nitrites are not quite as high today, and ammonia is 0 so I think it will be okay as long as I keep close tabs on the tank with daily partial wc for a while.

Here's the six they will be joining soon


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

I really like the way the tank is going and I love the similarities between the tetras and the angelfish. Hope the reintroduction goes well for you, and I'm glad Mr Beautiful is getting a bit more confident


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

thank you! It didn't turn out how I first envisioned, but I'm liking it more and more too.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*here's the more pics*

I added two plants to my 45 the other day. Went to the LFS in the next town, they didn't have any tetras I wanted so I bought two nice anubias (to support a local buisness). They're weighed down in the middle for now.








It's just anubias barteri, but looks far nicer than any of the barteri I already had. Are my conditions not so great, that this one looks perfect to compare?








my best clump of java fern in the front corner








the rest, on the other side-








vallisneria in the planter basket








buce 'brownie ghost' now on a smaller piece of driftwood








buce 'isabella'- has a tiny new sprig of leaves growing from one of the roots!








buce 'green wavy' is on two small pieces of wood








and the little bit of buce 'emerald green' on this even smaller one








quick short end shot, from above angle- can see the water has more tannins since I sawed some mopani pieces and didn't boil them again








other short end, from low angle-








it's all going to get rearranged soon (that's the plan) and already two vals, a few buces and one anubias have come loose from their mopani anchors. I'll probably retie them in a few days when I put my hands in the tank for maintenance again.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Looking good!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

On maintenance day I rearranged a few of the plants again.








main change was that I tied all the anubias barteria onto the larger mopani pieces- new among old








the three anubias afzelii I put on smaller pieces because with their narrower, upright leaves I think they look better situated lower.








saw that I had one buce 'blue belle' among the buce 'isabella'- it has slightly wider leaves. I put it on its own mopani anchor








I took the trouble to lift out the largest driftwood piece and tie the other anubias rhizomes on here more firmly. In the middle is anubias congensis (held down with a rock), I'm not sure what the others are- another variety of barteri? or something else.








my angel seems to like the plants- acting much bolder lately-








in fact perhaps he likes them_ too_ much- I found out why my water wisteria has been looking bad. It's not just melt. When the angelfish is hungry he tears at this plant.








I watched him ripping the leaves. I started skipping feeding once a week, on days I do the water change. They seem okay with it now- although act hungry- wiggling around for my attention! M. Beautiful now has two little spots to the right top of his first stripe- freckles?








Incidentally, since I changed out the container my crypt balansae and aponogeton grow in, suddenly my kuli loach Albert is visible just as frequently as the others. I wonder if something about that makeshift strawberry basket container made him feel unwell? or if he really liked hiding under it. But I'm glad to see him again, dashing about just as avidly as the others at feeding time.


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## tredford (Jun 29, 2018)

Angels and plants are looking awesome! Lots of nice Bucephalandra and Anubias.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*Reunion!!*

The separation has been three months. This morning I did a water change, completely rescaped the large tank (while M. Beautiful was in a bucket with some plant cover) and then reintroduced both angels at the same time. With the lights off, then later set dim, so the photos aren't great but I am so happy- watched them for hours and no fighting at all.








My largest net is just barely large enough to use for the angelfish- M. Beautiful thrashed when caught- surprising how strong they are!- and got stuck a bit and injured- its right pectoral fin very red where it meets the body and it held it clamped for a while. I think it will be okay, an hour later it was using the fin again and the redness mostly gone now.








After this mishap I caught the other angelfish using a large fish bag. It was very awkward but way less stress for the fish and no injury.

Here's what the tank looks like now. All rearranged. Crypt balansae and apono capuroni are behind the mopani chunks with anubias- not visible now but I hope they grow taller. Vals are on the left, and I've added new leaf litter. I will get better photos when the light is at normal strength, tomorrow or in a few days.
















I added this plant, too. Can you believe it's all that's left of my two largest crypt wendtii. They have gradually been melting away in the 20H- some new leaves grew but doesn't look nearly as good as it used to. I put them in my last plastic canvas planter, and acclimated to temp to avoid too much shock.








M. Beautiful and Skye:








The angels have more or less been hanging out side by side all day- some posturing and gill flaring but not a single sign of aggression. Great color the entire time- they didn't go pale once.
























I tried to get individual closeups but the only ones that came out well are of M. Beautiful. Who looks a bit roughed up from the netting- dinged on the top of nose, and the edge of caudal fin is black- dang, I think it got too cold in the bucket. Edge of the lips are black, too, which I noticed when it was feeding.
















This is a better pic of the anubias plants than the fish!








I'm very glad the angels are acting companionable and confident again, but dismayed when later today I saw that Skye tended to stay in the back of the tank, going to and fro, or in corners- and then I saw one of the older tetras is nipping at Skye's trailing fins- which are quite a bit longer than M. Beautiful's. A few times the angelfish lunged back at the tetra, who darted away. If that one tetra keeps pestering maybe I will put it in the 20H with the shrimps for a while! I thought ten was a good number to keep the tetras preoccupied with each other, but maybe I need a dozen? or fifteen?

Wouldn't it be terribly ironic if following all this effort to get the angels calm, confident and cohabiting, I had to remove the tetras because they nip after all. The other fish I really wanted to pair with angels is emerald catfish- and i may have found a local breeder- but I'd have to move out my kuhlis ~sad~ and I wonder if the antics of emerald cats would have the same distracting effect on the angels? Just thinking ahead, in case the tetras become a problem...


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

So glad they're getting on now, and the tank looks great!

Hopefully Skye will stand up for herself and the tetras will learn to leave her alone - I'd have thought 10 would be enough too, but perhaps not.

Emerald corys are gorgeous, I hope you get hold of some!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Got a better full tank shot- well, of the plants- one of my angels is a total blur behind the other.









I did a water change midweek. M. Beautiful's tail still looks ragged, the entire edge of it degraded a bit. Frogbits look unhappy whenever I do extra wc on this tank- but I'd rather save the fish form having tail rot, nevermind if I loose some plants.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My angelfishes look better! Skye doesn't have any more damage to his long trailing fins, and he threatens the tetras which keep clear away, so I think they quit nipping him. M. Beautiful seems to be healing- tail fin looks like the edge is growing back. I was sitting on the floor watching the fishes feed this morning and noticed that two of my black skirt tetras (not the largest ones, by the way) have fat, squared-off bellies. Probably gravid females! Well, if they spawn, there will be some egg goodies for the kuhlis and angels. I seriously doubt fry would survive in this tank.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Nice job!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*I think my angelfish are going to spawn!!*

I noticed the past few days they have been hanging out in a certain corner- and today while feeding them I suddenly saw M. Beautiful has what looks like a short, wide breeding tube showing. Also looking quite plump. I looked careful and Skye also has a breeding tube- very small and narrow but it's there. (I had been wondering if Skye was male, because of the larger forehead). M. Beautiful is cleaning an anubias leaf in that corner they seem to have claimed, and they are chasing the tetras if they come near. Also acting freaking out and going pale momentarily when my kid ran loudly down the stairs to my excited shout: "my angelfish are going to breed! Look, their sex organs are extruding!" yeah I wasn't too discreet about that.

Now I've got something else to leap excitedly out of bed in the morning for (aside from checking the progress of my early garden seedlings). To see if something happened in the fish tank overnight or early morning. 

My kid and husband were immediately asking me what I'll do with the babies, where I'll raise them, how many I might get. I laughed- I'm not planning on doing daily water changes or shuffling fish between tanks- just let nature take its course. Probably they will eat them, or the tankmates will. But it's exciting to see they feel healthy enough to breed.

Only one of the black skirt tetras still looks fat and squared-off, now. The other must have dropped or re-absorbed the eggs.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

[strike]Nothing yet.[/strike] The angelfish have definitely claimed this corner of the tank. Their breeding tubes are more visible- or it's just that I know what to look for. I am spending way too much time going down into the basement hall now, hoping to see them spawn.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 

I went back downstairs to look in the tank at noon, and found this!








Funny this morning I watched M. Beautiful cleaning the leaf, and Sky was cleaning the heater sometimes as well- but she never helped him there and once I saw her go up alongside him and shake herself, pelvic fins extended like a threat. He came back and helped her clean the anubias, but more often was chasing tetras away from the area. They have definitely drawn a line in the tank: angelfish have the left third, tetras get to use the right two-thirds of the space:








M. Beautiful is the female








I took lots of pictures of them spawning. Female:
















Male:








Sometimes he would go across the leaf at a different angle than she did. Other times he'd start to follow her pass before she was done!
















She missed a few times- kuhlis were below looking for dropped eggs. And some stuck on the edge of a nearby leaf- the first time it happened she stared at it a long time, tried to bite it off, then didn't pay attention to those off to the side. Skye made a few short passes to fertilize those eggs too.








When they started, the eggs were more or less evenly spaced-








but when she ran out of room, the female didn't move to another nearby leaf, instead kept making passes over the same spot again and again. So there are a lot of eggs on top of other ones. I don't know if that makes a difference to their hatching? 








And why should it matter, ha, since I keep saying I don't _plan_ to raise baby angelfish. I will watch excitedly for developments regardless.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

They are beautiful!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

thank you!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*they're going bad-*

The angelfish eggs. Lots of them are opaque white- fungal I guess. Every time I look in the tank I see more white ones. The female doesn't seem to be picking them off- or isn't doing it fast enough to stop the spread. She is still very attentive, stays right by the leaf except when there's food, and fans continually. Didn't eat the eggs- so that's a plus! but doesn't seem to know how to remove the bad ones. Male is hovering closer to the leaf today, helping fan, as if he realizes something is going wrong. Kuhlis are swarming below, I bet they are scavenging as eggs decay enough to fall off? it seems to bother the female- she makes little threatening rushes at the kuhlis now and then.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

It takes them a couple to figure it out. Your fish are beautiful!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*I have WIGGLERS!*

I'm kinda shocked. First thing I saw yesterday morning when I went downstairs- the parents were not by their leaf. A lot of the eggs were fungal- horrid mass of white fuzz. Then I saw the angels were hovering near another anubias center of the tank (tetras all keeping to a top corner of the water column, in a much tighter group than before).








The parents had moved the good eggs to this new leaf- only they aren't eggs anymore, they're wiggling around and I can just see eye dots and tiny tails. There's about fifty of them (so originally must have been two hundred or more is my guess). Wow.








Here's the male. I hadn't realized how rich his colors had gotten.








Female was often under the foliage searching around- and I saw a lot of the wigglers sliding down, hanging off the bottom edge of the leaf, so maybe she was trying to find and replace those that fell.








I'm rather surprised they got so far in spite of it being their first time. I really thought they were just going to eat the eggs! but now they are taking such good care. Maybe it will end here- I don't have any fry food- just some gold pearls- maybe I could crush those into a powder? I have frozen food with daphnia in it, and I'm wondering if the fry might find enough to eat on biofilm in the tank, until they're large enough to take the gold pearls or pulverized flake. But I know from reading, infusoria or live food like brine shrimp, micro worms is really best...

The male is _very_ aggravated by my tetras now. He's driving them around the tank constantly. I think their job as dither fish is done haha. Hope the parents feel more relaxed when they're gone. I moved them into my 20 with the shrimps yesterday- if the parents start acting freaked out by foot traffic again, I can always put them back. Maybe they gave the male a job to do, something to protect against. But I feel pretty sure they would eat the fry.

It was difficult to net out the tetras- I didn't want to cause too much chaos but surprisingly, my angelfish were not upset at the disruption. I tried to do the job carefully- using my largest net and an acrylic stick to gently drive the tetras toward the net- but of course as their numbers got fewer they started to panic. However the angels stayed calm the whole time. They cruised around near their leaf and watched- they knew I was after those tetras. I almost though the male was going to start helping me corral the tetras into the net himself. Did they realize I was helping them out, removing the other fish? Once I was following a tetra with the acrylic prod, the stick passed just a few centimeters from M. Beautiful and she didn't flinch at all.

Likewise this morning- things much calmer in the angel tank- I saw a few large pieces of fish poop on anubias leaf near the wigglers. I used my long acrylic tube to siphon it out- right next to the wiggler's leaf, but the angel didn't flee or attack the tool, just stayed nearby and watched. They didn't freak out or go pale when I cleaned the tank yesterday, either, nor attack the siphon as I half expected. I kept it further from the wiggler's spot to avoid disturbing, cut off and removed the old leaf that had the moldy eggs on it. Indication of how many they lost:








This morning they've moved the wigglers again- whose tails look larger, the yolk sacs smaller.








I keep telling myself I'm not going to go to great lengths to raise these fry- daily water changes, culturing infusoria- just let nature happen- but then I find myself wanting to help the angels in their effort. There's just something enthralling watching how their demeanor has changed.They are _so_ focused.








Can you see in that pic, the tip of the female's dorsal is turned white. I don't know if she's got a mild case of fin rot, or can stress cause that. Her tail is starting to look neatly healed, but now this. Nitrates were just over 5ppm when I did this weekly water change. Frogbit is melting away again- not happy in this tank. Most of my vallisneria have died, too- there's only five left. But as you can see in some of the above pics, my crypt wendtii has responded well to moving in here- it's perked up a lot, color is good and altho a few older leaves melted off, new ones are already unfurling.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Cichlids in brood dress are amazing!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

well, the excitement is over. This morning, no wigglers or fry. Angelfish hanging around the tank looking unconcerned (although they did seem to be looking in the area now and then),








kuhlis swarming around under the anubias. They are nearly the same color as the driftwood- so very hard to see... I'm guessing they're to blame. 








My youngest is sad- she really wanted to see baby angels in the tank. I told her they'll probably try again in a few months- but I'll have to move the kuhlis out, to give them a better chance...

I did a partial wc this afternoon, and rinsed out one of the filter sponges. Angels went pale and hid. Took a long time for them to come out of hiding when I was done, I coaxed them with a bit of food but M. Beautiful was still rather pale until I turned off the room lights. I really don't want to put the tetras back in there in case they do spawn again, but I hate seeing them skittish again, sigh. All their lovely warm hues are gone- just plain silvers now.


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

Sorry to hear about the wigglers, but it sounds like an amazing first go. At least they're definitely getting along now


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks @Thelongsnail Yes, I thought they made an admirable attempt! They are a bit skittish again now that the tetras are out of the tank- but it's nice to see them getting along and I hope they will find confidence in each other's company now on.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*!!*

It has only been _five days _since my angels lost their wigglers. Yesterday cleaning the tank I rinsed the other filter sponge- it was pretty dirty- and have been feeding lightly- they only got frozen food once this week so far- the cleaner tank seems to be helping M. Beautiful heal, her dorsal fin edge is looking better. Also I thought if the kuhlis are kept hungry, it will be easier to trap them if I want to move them out- looks like my tetras in the 20H may be going to a new home this week, then I'll have a place to put the kuhlis. It will be harder to part with them . . . . 

because this morning I went downstairs to feed the angels, and found them side by side cleaning a new leaf. Breeding tubes out again. I didn't expect this, thought it would be at least a month before they tried again. I guess it's possible they ate the first wigglers, and the female re-absorbed the nutrients? She doesn't look very plump right now, so maybe this spawn will be smaller.

_Later_: actually, I don't think the angels ate their wigglers. The day I found them missing, the kuhlis looked suspiciously overfull, lolling around on their sides like their tummies hurt.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

The loaches probably got them after lights out. That had always been my problem in a community setting


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yeah. I just re-homed my black skirt tetras today- angels acted a bit skittish again when they were gone but not nearly as bad as before- and caught all seven black kuhli loaches, moved them into my spare 20. Four striped kuhlis are still in the angel tank- they have always been more shy and didn't come into the trap yet.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My angels wasted no time. They are spawning today- laying eggs on the same anubias they started with last time. I did feed them this morning, they paused in their work every now and them to come take the food but left a lot drifting- I kind of hope that the four striped kuhlis remaining in here will absolutely stuff themselves on the brine/mysis shrimp and not have any interest for angel wigglers. Maybe. Or I will have to set the trap again.

Skye was badly frightened when I lowered the fish trap into the tank yesterday, fled so hard he splashed water out of the corner and bashed his face against the glass. Has a bruise on his face and his mouth looks out of alignment- from the front the lips look a bit off to the side now. He's eating okay but I feel really bad about it.

~

While I was writing this, they finished laying. The rows of eggs are much tidier this time, and I don't see any laid on top of others. I think there are fewer eggs- or she just did a neater job. The male is helping fan, I assume he's feeling a lot less pressure to be protective as they are no tetras in the tank anymore. I also see him gently mouthing the eggs now and then, so looks like they might do better at keeping them clean of fungus this time.

Pictures coming!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Here's some pictures








my Beautiful laying the eggs








Skye going over them








together








Neat rows, little pearly orbs. In two days I've only seen one turn opaque bad.








plants are looking greener btw, I've been gradually extending the photoperiod, adding on five minutes every few days. It started out just under six hours, going to see if it can get to seven, maybe seven and a half- stop when algae shows up on the leaves and then set it back a bit.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*second fail*

This morning a few more of the eggs were white, and the angels were picking at them, with bits of white scattered around the tank- I thought I was going to have to get the siphon out to clean up, but the four kuhlis ranged around eating stuff. M Beautiful struck hard and drove them away when they got close to her leaf. Just a few hours later I looked again, and the angels had torn nearly all the eggs off the leaf. Most of it is just shreds there- only about five good eggs still left on one side.








I don't know if the fungus spread that fast, or they just got over-zealous in cleaning off the bad stuff, or what. Much later in the day, I only saw one good egg left, the angels aren't guarding wigglers anywhere, and seem to have lost interest in the leaf. Oh well.








I tried to take a few photos of Skye head-on, his now crooked jaw, but it doesn't show very well. Saw him stretch his mouth out very far once, right after the accident. Pretty astonishing how far it can extend.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Hopefully they are still learning 


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yeah. They really did a good job cleaning up this time- I feel no need to cut off a leaf coated in fungus like before. I think I will bump up the temp a bit- it's been 78-79 degress, I'm going to put it at 80-81. Also I wonder if they didn't do as well this time because hadn't been getting the better foods- I didn't give them as much frozen food in the past week.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My husband noticed the eggs were gone in the angelfish tank. Today I walked down into the hall carrying a folded clothes drying rack, and they freaked again. Went pale and dashed away, I heard them bonking into the corners. Skye looked dazed and his jaw more crooked. _Arrrgh_. I wasn't even moving quickly! Why are they so nervous at seeing new things appear? Skye seems to get badly frightened more than M Beautiful. I'm starting to think he'll always be this way- and I don't really want to get dither fish again, unless it turns out they won't ever raise fry successfully- I will try to do thicker planting- taller things like more vals, camboba, elodea... see if that helps any. Some algae is beginning to show up on the back glass and I'm just leaving it there, it dulls reflections.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Skye hurt himself again. The day before, startled with fright, dashed away into the corner- where the heater is- then he turns sharply upward splashes at the top I don't know if he hits the lid glass but it is horrid to me, hearing the dim little _thonk_s of my fish striking the walls of the tank. He got this injury on his side- it doesn't look large but is actually a dent in his flesh








Yesterday was worse. I was doing regular tank maintenance and the appearance of the siphon hose frightened Skye again. This time he scraped his caudal peduncle and flank badly:








A day later, it does look like it is healing- the mark is not as stark- but I am really worried one day he is going to do so much damage to himself he won't be able to eat, or get stunned.
















M Beautiful goes pale and turns away or hides behind plants, but doesn't dash off and hurt herself like this. I don't know why he is so afraid. Guess I should have kept the tetras... It _is_ comforting to see them so companionable, though.








I am talking with my husband about the possibility of relocating the tank upstairs- but it would be a big task, and there are a lot of _ifs_ to figure out.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Your fish look amazing. 

My Angels are like this. Dithers help. Lots of plants help. Nothing is fool proof except for the lid


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks. It was dumb of me to rehome the tetras so soon. The angels were so bold while tending their eggs, I thought all was good now. Went right back to being skittish after. I'm hoping to add more plants soon.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I think dumb is too harsh. We learn every day. 


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well, so far I'm really happy with all my anubias- most of them have new young leaves
















the aponogeton capuronii isn't very tall yet, but it also has new leaves sprouting- can see in center behind the anubias here








Crypt balansae is starting to look really good- not sure how tall it will get. There's a tiny leaf there in front of the balansae rhizomes- it's a piece of crypt willisii, found that bit floating around in here and just stuck it in that container








I was thinking for a while my java ferns were looking kinda awful. Cut out a half dozen leaves this week that went blanched white ugly. The rest look okay- and younger leaves look greener. I think it was just adjusting slower, to the changes with fewer fish, slightly longer photoperiod in the tank. Plus I've added back leaf litter again (not as much as before) I think that helps feed my plants in here.








Java fern 'windelov' looks nicest in this tank than any of my others, so when I found pieces loose in the window tank, I moved them in here.








Lost over half the vallisneria I planted in here. Two had come loose this week, I had to replant them. But those five left seem to be taking hold, so I hope they send out runners eventually. The two small remainders of crypt retrospiralis that were still hanging on in the 20H, I stuck into the front edge of this planter.








I trimmed my buce 'selena' in the betta tank. This time I replanted the top in the same spot, pulled the lower half with its roots and moved into here. Since the roots are clinging to some substrate, it sinks. When it has sprouted new leaves on top and looks more presentable, I'll tied it onto driftwood piece with the other 'selena' buces.








I was going to just cut one, but I ended up trimming four.


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## tredford (Jun 29, 2018)

Tank is looking great! In fact, looks like all of your tanks are doing very well.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*spawning again!*

Third time. I suspected it was near. This past week my angelfish have been horribly skittish. Several times a day they crashed away into the walls when anyone walked downstairs, no matter how calmly we moved. My husband even paused in the doorway to let them _see_ him before he walked past, but they turn ghostly pale and flee. Both Skye and M Beautiful sustained more scrapes, I was feeling so dismayed.

Then two days ago suddenly in the evening they had bold colors, and came to greet me when I approached, wiggling their tails eager. I wondered at the change, then noticed they were cleaning a leaf again- the same spot as before. I'm puzzled why they are so easily frightened when _not_ in breeding mood. Maybe when spawning, it takes their minds off their fears? Anyway, they cleaned the leaf so vigorously this time, they knocked it off the driftwood. Rubber band broke and the new hold the plant had just made on the hardscape wasn't strong enough!
















I didn't reach in to reposition the plant, thought they might do better in another location. I read a suggestion that when angels lay their eggs near a sponge filter, maybe the flow reduces the success of the male fertilizing, so there's more bad eggs. They chose a new spot on anubias in the center of the aquarium, happens to be farthest from each filter, so will see if that makes a difference for them.








The female laid the eggs on two adjacent leaves this time. She appears to be fanning them vigorously, more often than before.








(Not entirely in focus) this was my first picture of the eggs yesterday-








Today already I see some are missing- the blank spot top left of the further-away leaf is where I saw one white egg yesterday- looks like the parents promptly removed it.








There's more eggs gone from the nearer leaf this morning, too. Not sure if the few kuhlis still in this tank ate some in the night, or the parents are being more diligent about removing bad eggs to prevent the fungus this time.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*well, that was brief*

This morning I looked in the angel tank. The spawning leaves were very clean- no sign of fungus- but most of the eggs gone, only twenty or thirty left. I thought the four striped kuhlis had been at them in the night- parents looked very diligent, fanning and striking when Tiger or Sassy- looking suspiciously plump and hanging around on the driftwood below anubias- got close. I was getting ready to set my fish trap for the kuhli loaches- thought I would at least shut them up in a breeder box for one or two days, see if the wigglers would get to free-swimming stage without that threat- but when I came back downstairs, all the eggs now gone. Parents still approaching the leaf spot, inspecting it, fanning as if reflexively. Did they eat the eggs themselves, then?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Angelfish now are in the living room, outside wall between the television and the sliding glass door, but set back from it- shouldn't get any direct sunlight. It was a very long day, catching fishes, tearing down the tank, moving and leveling it, replacing all the hardscape and plants, re-introducing the fish. So far they appear to be doing really well with the new location, showing their stripes and just backing away behind the plants if we look at them too close. Tomorrow with lights on again I will be eager to get some pictures, and see if they remain calm throughout the day.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*Relocation*

Here's my angel tank in it's new spot, main floor living room. To the right is the fireplace (not in use, television is in front of it) and to the left, sliding glass door out to the deck- forward, just out of the picture frame. Some of my houseplants around it- ten-year-old five foot tall dracanea, foxtail fern on a pedestal.








Closer photo, just as the tank light was coming on








Yesterday morning was kind of frustrating, catching the striped kuhli loaches to move into a different tank- I set the trap and even though none of them had eaten in two days, it took_ hours_ for the kuhlis to go in. The angels seemed to ignore what was going on until Tiger was in there eating, then M Beautiful came and tried to bite at the food. Her color looks great here- except you can see some scrapes on the stripes. Or maybe it is slime coat? because when they were floating in the bag waiting for tank to be ready again- in the 20H so temp remained consistent- I went over periodically to siphon out a bit of water and add a bit fresh to their bag- and I kept siphoning out little clumps of pale translucent filmy stuff. I wondered if they were slouging off excess slime coat- does that mean they've been super stressed, or sick and I didn't know it?








Angels took long time to calm down from their ordeal. I re-introduced them to the tank when all was re-planted and temperature back to normal, left the lights off rest of the day. All next morning- even with the lighting low the female looked pale and nervous-








Male has sustained some injury. Mouth is messed up- from his previous collisions with the tank wall- and now he's lost both caudal extensions. My largest fish net is not quite big enough to handle the angels anymore- I tried to be gentle but when finally acclimated and released them into the 45 again, saw that Skye's caudal fin extensions were broken. They just fell off later in the day.








M Beautiful lost hers months ago when they were fighting- her lower one is just starting to grow back.








I've reset the light timer, to come on in late afternoon through the evening, 6.5 hr photoperiod with an hour ramp up/down. When it first comes on, there's still ambient daylight so the background looks gray (I might replace the background panel with something darker)-








When it goes dark outside, the tank looks great. I tried to arrange everything just the same as before, so the fishes would find it familiar. I did switch places with the heater and the pothos roots- because of outlet location for the heater cord. And moved the crypt balansae into corner, switched places with filter. 








In this new spot, it's much easier to get short end tank shots now-








Here's the other side. I moved the planter baskets a bit forward, so the fishes can slide between them and the back wall, and hide completely. Which they do.








Female appears to be more nervous than the male- she's often washed out. They both hide frequently. _But_ not once since moving the tank have I seen them bash into the walls in panic!








And- again to my surprise- it is seven days since they lost their last batch of eggs and they went through a ton of stress just now with the tank move- yet they are in breeding mood again. The male has golden color showing on his forehead, they are cleaning leaves and other surfaces (male keeps going at the heater, and the tallest balansae leaf) and if I look close I see both their breeding tubes showing.

I am feeling dubious about letting them breed. I still don't know if the male's bent dorsal and the female's deformed gill plate were caused by mistakes I made raising them, or if it's genetic. If the latter, would be a bad idea to have offspring . . . I certainly don't have plans to get another large tank just to raise fry, and I know how much work that is- and I don't have any idea where I would distribute them after. It _is_ super exciting to see them take care of the eggs and I was so thrilled that one time they got to wiggler stage. I don't mind that most of the eggs appear to die of fungus (or predation- we'll see now that the kuhlis are all out)- because I had a notion if they only managed to get ten or twenty fry, maybe that small number could grow up in the home tank ok? I mainly want to see if my pair would tend to their fry, knowing that a lot of angels have lost the instincts to care for their young . . . If it turns out they're bad parents, or the fry have lots of defects (though not at all sure I could detect that) I'll probably get bottom-dwellers in the tank again (maybe brochis splendens instead of kuhli loaches) for some population control.


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## Little Soprano (Mar 13, 2014)

Congrats! Once they get started spawning, it seems they don’t stop. My female, since being removed from the fry has spawned every 9 days like clockwork, spawning right now actually. 
Hope you get lucky! It’s an incredible thing to watch 🙂


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*how my plants are doing*

At a glance, my tank looks green and lush, but when I look close I see symptoms of the plants lacking something- although I don't know, some of this could be shock from spending a day in a bucket where they got cold while I was moving the tank the other day? Crypt balansae has a lot of leaves drooping-








While just nearby the crypt wendtii looks great








Anubias congensis is starting to look a bit pale between the leaf veins- but not any of the barteri alongside it-








Anubias afzelli has some browning/yellowing tips and edges-







This other anubias on the driftwood has some puckered leaves, and lots of tears- it's where the angels tried to breed twice. The one that had come loose, I propped up again and placed a rock over the roots to hold down until it grabs the wood.








Lost a few more vallisneria. The few left do seem very green- but I don't know. That white stem bending over is the bit of crypt retrospiralis I put in here- looks like it is dying but maybe will spring back from the rhizome piece. I'm not happy with that chunk of driftwood in the back that has bucephalandra on it. Would like another taller anubias or crypt on there, can't make up my mind. Hard to see- but I wedged on there a bit of bolbitis fern taken from the window tank- it's in the back, on the right. If that does well, I'll be happy to put a ton of bolbitis in here!








Condition of java fern still looks dubious-








Other plants appear totally fine- the buces all look nice, 'isabelle' has even sprouted a baby plant- I can't wait until it's time to cut off those rubber band and fishing line ties.








Little ridge of blue buces looks nice, too- all standing taller and I bet I could cut their ties








Last few months I have been dosing iron and potassium- I thought it might help- but java fern just keeps looking worse I don't know if what I did threw off the balance of nutrients it needed, or it can't keep up with the changes and will show better growth if I'm patient? Also maybe some of them are showing signs of lack because I took out all the other fishes- so there's less fish waste as nutrient. It's nice not to have as much mulm around the tank though! I wonder if I dimmed the light again- another sheet or two of window screening- would it slow the plant growth down enough they would do okay with the available nutrients. Especially now the tank gets lots of mild ambient light half the day.

Oh, and all my floaters died in here again. Every piece of frogbit is gone.

The angels look fine this morning. Female pale but not hiding as much. They came up to look at me when I checked on them- expecting breakfast. They were actively cleaning surfaces and displaying to each other last night when tank lights were on- but in the dim morning act subdued. Male seems more interested in spawning than the female, right now. He's been energetically cleaning anubias leaves, sometimes the heater too, or an uplift tube. Female cleans leaves sometimes, but not as often, nor as vigorously. I wonder if she was more upset by the move than her partner. Or maybe she's more sensitive to the water condition- I tested yesterday (day after tank move) there was a hint of ammonia so I did a wc of 20gal.

I've never seen my angels lock lips, but I saw some interesting behavior yesterday, wonder what they were doing. Female tipped her head up, and it looked like the male was nipping or mouthing her breeding tube. Then they switched positions and she nipped at his. It looked like they were being gentle but I was across the room so didn't see close. Then she took a nip at his pelvic fin and he moved off. What were they doing? it reminded me of dogs inspecting each other's privates. Anybody seen this?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My angels spawned yesterday.








They cleaned the leaf super vigorously- at times it looked like the female was attacking the surface! and are now fanning the eggs diligently. Male helps fan too sometimes. Their color looks great.








This morning a few white eggs, but I see them picking some off. Very curious to see how far they get this time, now they are alone in the tank I'll know if the wigglers or fry get eaten, it was the parents.








As you might notice, I was wrong about the angle of light in this corner. The tank _does _get hit by direct morning sun.








For an hour or two, very early in the day. It will probably cause some algae issues! I've already cut the light photoperiod back half an hour, thinking of putting another layer of window screening too. If I reduce the lighting/intensity enough on the artificial end, will it balance it out enough to avoid algae, I don't know. If not, I guess I'll have to hang a curtain for mornings.








There is something nice about seeing the angels in the natural light. They really shine, can readily see why they're called 'silvers'. When they see me looking at them, sometimes they just slowly slide backwards into the shadow, it's cool. Also they're starting to get used to the space. Now when I've been sitting on the couch across the room for a while and make a motion to get up, they will suddenly come alert and move to the front of the tank begging for food!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

There are a few bare patches on the leaf this morning, and a few more white eggs. It looks like they are _trying_ to remove the bad ones. Right now while one parent is fanning the eggs, the other is across the tank cleaning a new anubias leaf. I bet the hatching is close, and they will move the wigglers off that leaf to get them away from the fungus (nothing looks fuzzy yet though). My youngest is _really_ excited to see baby angels this time. I didn't tell her it might not last long- I made no efforts to get brine shrimp. I really doubt there's enough microorganisms in the tank to feed fry for long . . . I'm adding a bit more leaf litter, but this time tucked into crevices in the hardscape, so the floor will stay clear for easy cleaning.

*Later in the day:* I made a mistake. Testing water parameters on all my tanks this morning before maintenance, the 45 had 10ppm nitrate. I debated what to do: leave it alone until after the eggs hatch to avoid disturbing anything, or do a usual water change to make the tank cleaner. I've been trying to feed the angels more carefully since there's no bottom-feeder fish in the tank, slow so they don't miss too much but some food still falls to the bottom here and there. I'm hoping the snails clean up but . . . 

I finally decided having cleaner water was the better option. Angels have been good up until now. For some reason when I lifted the lid panel they freaked out, crashed into walls again, male banged himself hard now is holding one pectoral clamped against his body. I was very careful to make the new water exactly same temperature as the tank, and to add it slow and gradual, and to do the siphoning/ pouring of new water farthest from where the eggs are.

But looks like I really upset the parents. Washed out female has gone back to tending the eggs, but the male isn't. I suspect because he is hurt. I was cleaning the betta tank when my husband called me back into the room: "hey, it looks like your angels are fighting." The female was jerking her pelvic fins wide, shaking herself alongside the male, making threatening little rushes at him and then pivoting to swim back towards the eggs. I think she was getting after him for not helping. And now the eggs are failing fast- more white ones, more blank patches as they pick at them. I should have just left it all alone.

Of course, what does it matter when I don't have a growout tank or proper food. I just wanted to see them have success hatching fry once, even if a small number. And then I will get some cories or something to range around on the bottom again. Or add my kuhlis back.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I hope he recovers 


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well, end of day he looks better now, is using the fin again normal. The parents aren't fanning as closely, nor hovering around the leaf as much, but seem to be prepping a few more anubias leaves around the tank. The eggs look larger, I bet I have some wigglers in the morning. Most of the leaf is empty, though- of white shreds. There's only about forty good eggs left. Still ok with that.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Have some wigglers. Very few. I think less than twenty, maybe only a dozen. They're on the backside of a leaf so hard to tell. Parents moved them all from the egg leaf. Which was once again picked clean- so the kuhlis weren't to blame after all. Either lots of eggs got fungus, or the parents overdid the cleaning job and picked many good eggs off too. Night before when the wigglers were hatching, M Beautiful seemed put out that she was tending them and moving them on her own- Skye was on the other side of the tank, just sitting there. Not sure if because he felt bad from running into the tank walls or simply wasn't interested. Female went after him- snapping, threatening, making nasty quick feints horizontal attack mode. I really do think she was angry he wasn't helping.

This morning she was often - but not always- near the leaf with the wigglers, and searching for ones that fell, below under the plants. Skye not showing much interest. I'm pretty sure already lost half the wigglers.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

deleted accidental duplicate post


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

There's a dozen of them. I can see eyes and tails. I lifted a few out of the tank this morning- kind of accidentally. Saw there was a lump of white fungus, looked like a dead fry or two. Tried very carefully to siphon out the dead one with my long acyrlic tube, but it picked up a few live ones too. The parents didn't notice at first, they came topside when I lifted the lid looking for breakfast. Then they saw what I was doing, and attacked the tube. I slowly released the water back into the tank, M Beautiful retrieved all the wigglers and put them back on the leaf- including the dead one. It slid to the edge so I was able to get it out a second time without disturbing the live wigglers.

Parents have split pectoral fins, and the female's tail is torn. They both have small scrapes on their sides. Have been bickering again- over parental duties, I keep thinking. Skye is just as diligent as M Beautiful this morning, hovering near the wiggler's leaf and plucking at things.

Some of my anubias are getting brown algae on them, from the sunlight. The crypts and buces look great, though. Crypt balansae is taking off, crypt wendtii looks prettier than I've ever seen it, and the tiny bit of crypt retrospiralis I put in here on a chance, is regrowing (while another val has died).


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My angelfish fry are now free-swimming! Yesterday just two were lifting off the leaf and hovering around, today it's nearly all. I count thirteen, maybe there's fourteen (yes, a small number of survivors I know). It's quickly become very amusing to watch the parents constantly collecting the wandering fry and spitting them back on the leaf- as soon as they do, a few more swim off and must be retrieved. Skye is definitely getting most of the food right now because the female only takes a few bites before going back to check on the babies. Once she had begun collecting fry (three or four in her mouth) when a food bit fell in front of her and she went to grab it, stopped herself, tried again, paused, took the babies back to the leaf, saw more that needed to be retrieved- never did come for that bite (Skye got it).

Quite a few babies get propelled up by the filter outflow to the surface where they lurk and cling among the pothos roots. I can't tell if they're feeding off biofilm there or not. I thought they would feed off the filter sponge but nope. Or not yet. I do have hikari first bites and gold pearls- but even that might need to be crushed further. I know micro worms or brine shrimp would be better- but didn't get any yet. I do see tiny specks moving around against current in the tank, so I know there's microorganisms- whether enough to feed this tiny batch of fry for a while, not sure.

My seven-year-old is _delighted_. She smiles broadly and is careful to approach the tank without bouncing, and says "oh Mom, I'm so happy for you. I'm so happy for your angelfish!" I hate to tell her they probably won't make it, or I might end up feeding the fry to my paradise fishes. If I notice defects like Skye's bent dorsal fin . . . I also feel kinda weird about the fact that my angelfish parents are siblings. If I'm going to let them breed, wouldn't it be better if they weren't related.

Meanwhile though, it is really wonderful to see them. The tiny nearly-translucent fry are just a pair of eyes, a stomach and a wiggly tail. Hilariously cute, and so endearing to see the parents tending them.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Looks like at least ten fry are still alive- I wasn't sure this morning if I accidentally siphoned some out doing the water change. I did run the siphon hose on the farthest end of the tank from the fry area, but the parents bolted and hid, washed out, behind the other filter instead of scooping up their wayward babies or attacking the siphon end, like I expected. So some of the fry wandered around while I was cleaning the tank. By the time I was refilling the water- very slowly, and using a candy thermometer to try and match the new water exactly- the parents showed their stripes again and were cautiously patrolling the tank.

Now the mother has them gathered in the back center of the tank, behind the driftwood chunks that hold up anubias. I can just see them if I peer between the anubias clumps. They're more or less swimming in a little drift around their mother, but a few keep going down to the tank floor among the leaf litter. I think I see them biting at stuff in the water column. I tried to give them a bit of hikari first bites twice today, but I'm not sure if they found it. I swirled a tiny pinch in some water in a little jar, then used the acrylic pipette to put it near the babies- but the parents attacked that. And I don't see their bellies getting fat with colored food.

I boiled and put a new handful of leaves in the tank, hoping its biofilm would also feed the fry. Can't tell if it is, yet, but the two nerite snails moved in on the leaves fairly quickly!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I can't help obsessively keeping tabs on my few angelfish fry- even more so than when I had a baby cory in my ten gallon! Yesterday I thought the mother had eaten one- I was feeding the parents some flake, M Beautiful came up front and when she opened her mouth to eat, a baby she'd been holding tumbled out. It was kinda funny. She grabbed the flake, then saw and grabbed the baby, then took _more_ flakes. I didn't know if she could keep them sorted in her mouth, and only swallow the flake? She then went down behind the anubias plants where they're more or less keeping the fry herded now. I counted ten fry this morning, so I guess that one is still alive.

The fry poke around low among the leaf litter in the rear of the tank. I _do_ see them biting at stuff in the water. It's like when I had the cherry barb fry- can't see the tiny fish mouth, but I can see the _movement_ of it, weird. One fry keeps scooting around on the tank floor- I'm not sure if this one is a "belly slider" or if it's just looking for food there. When a parent retrieves it and puts it back among the others, it eventually swims down there again.

I'm not yet alarmed that soft brown algae is showing up on anubias leaves. There are enough days with cloudy mornings it seems to keep it from getting too bad, _so far_. Nerites are often on the front glass, so that is clean. Angels bite at them, though. Crypts and buces look fantastic, my wendtii bronze has beautiful color. But the windelov fern is faltering and the java fern looks awful. I'm thinking of tossing all the java fern and putting more crypts in here, since they seem so happy. Might even tie some crypts on the driftwood anchors I had the java fern on. I haven't seen many people do this, but I read suggestion in a few places that some crypts can cling to hardscape just like anubias- is that true?

I'm feeling really motivated to do the necessary daily water changes to help these fry grow- I want to see if they turn out nice shape, or have the father's bent fin. But- won't that hurt my plants, to have the water column so lean of nutrients. Probably another reason the java fern is doing badly.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My angelfish fry all died. The parents' behavior told me right away. Late in the afternoon yesterday I did a large water change, matched the temp, added the water slowly. Thought it would be better to use pipette to get some mulm from the tank floor, around the wood pieces. I siphoned out the first few buckets of water with my hose like normal, then used the acrylic pipette to spot clean some areas that had mulm. I thought I was keeping well away from the baby fish, but when I was all done and the tank refilled, the parents were looking, and then sitting around as if they didn't know what to do with themselves. I only saw three fry then. Later in the evening, couldn't find _any_, and the adults came right up to look at me when I was near the tank, they're not hanging in the back busy herding baby fish anymore. I found one lying still on the filter, siphoned it out of the tank w/pipette. It barely moved. I think they starved. Its belly looked empty, if I can tell. I fed it to a paradise fish.

Well, now I know if I want to raise some of them, have to get the live foods for the babies. And figure a way to get the food to them, if I'm not going to separate them into another tank. Maybe turn off the filters when I put in the food. I think they just couldn't find enough to eat, in that big of space. Or possibly I could put a few fry in the breeder net box (like I did before w/a cherry barb) and feed them in that small space until they're bigger? don't know if the parents would accept them back, tho.

Dismayed that the same afternoon, with the babies gone, Skye startled badly when I came near the tank and raised my arm, both angels crashed into the corner again, as if desperately seeking escape. _Why_ do they only do this when they don't have eggs/babies in the tank? 

To my surprise, not only is my seven-year-old urging me to try again but my husband is also encouraging it. They were both really intrigued to see the tiny fry and watch the parents' care, and want to see at least one batch grow up.


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## babystarz (Sep 25, 2012)

JJ09 said:


> Well, now I know if I want to raise some of them, have to get the live foods for the babies. And figure a way to get the food to them, if I'm not going to separate them into another tank. Maybe turn off the filters when I put in the food. I think they just couldn't find enough to eat, in that big of space. Or possibly I could put a few fry in the breeder net box (like I did before w/a cherry barb) and feed them in that small space until they're bigger? don't know if the parents would accept them back, tho.


Hey I have angelfish fry around the same age yours were. I decided I did want to try my hand at raising them so I moved them from the parent's 40G tank into a large Marina hang-on box thing (https://www.amazon.com/Marina-Hang-...7&s=gateway&sprefix=brine+shr,aps,155&sr=8-18) to make sure they could eat when they became free swimming. This is going well (I do have to siphon waste out of the box multiple times a day with a turkey baster in lieu of water changes since it just gets refilled with more water from the 40G). The parents can still see their babies and do seem to prefer hanging out near the box. They haven't spawned again yet but I think they'd eat the babies if they were added back to the tank at this point. 

I do really like my San Francisco Bay strain BBS from Brine Shrimp Direct for these guys as a live food. They got the eggs and a hatchery cone to me very quickly so I had everything ready to go in time for the fry to eat once they were free-swimming. I am told hardboiled egg yolk works in a pinch but will create a mess that needs to be cleaned up right after eating. Some people say they will eat decapsulated brine shrimp eggs right away too but those seem a tiny bit too large to me and I think they really enjoy hunting the BBS by herding them into corners and then attacking them lol.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks, @babystarz, that's encouraging. I did use egg yolk once to feed a cherry barb fry, it worked but did require lots of cleaning. I've read that angelfish fry need to see something moving to have the instinct to eat it? so not sure if that would work in this case, but I'm willing to try. In a few weeks when my angels spawn again, if I feel like doing the work of keeping the fry going (all those water changes) I'll probably order a brine shrimp kit from somewhere. Thanks for the recc.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Some of the anubias were knocked loose by angelfish activities in past weeks, so I tied them down again.








Moved a few java fern around- put some on the left in front of the other filter sponge-








and found that some new leaves are sprouting off root hairs that attached themselves to the wood, and a few fiddleheads came up on the rhizomes. Maybe I have just been too impatient to see new growth on this.








I put the righthand sponge filter back in the corner- if the angels like to spawn on the anubias and guard their babies behind them, it will be easier to spot feed without the filter right there pulling stuff in. So moved the planters around a bit- I want to see wendtii better- its color is very nice now, although some leaves look puckered?








and tied two pieces of crypt undulata from the paradise fish tank on another small chunk of wood.








I usually would wait to do all this on a water change day, but wanted to fix the things before the angels decided to spawn again. None too soon- this morning I see their breeding tubes again, and they are starting to inspect leaves. Skye particularly is beginning to clean the anubias. I haven't even fed them up- deliberately just gave them regular flake and NLS pellets this week- no frozen foods- hoping if they weren't in top condition, wouldn't feel like breeding yet. In spite of my family's encouragement, I'm not ready for the work of helping them raise babies, yet. Maybe it will just keep the spawn small.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well a few days ago they laid eggs again-








M Beautiful was tending them diligently, Skye was going off to sit in corners and then she would rush over and threaten him and he'd come back and help fan for a while. Or pick stuff off.








Then I did regular tank maintenance, and this time lifted out one sponge filter to rinse it. I did it slow and careful but the angelfish were upset. Skye made threatening rushes at my hands and the filter, but stopped short of actually biting. And later that day they ate all the eggs. It's okay, I wasn't ready to help them by doing the water changes and I still don't have any live food. I guess soon this will get old enough I'll quit taking photos and commenting on their spawning attempts!

Funny moment- I saw one of the zebra snails on the airline inside the filter uplift (it crawled out again soon after)


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## Snapdragon (Mar 31, 2019)

I was never remotely interested in keeping angelfish...until this thread!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I think my 45 is finally in a better place (in spite of the algae). I quit dosing the extra iron and potassium when I moved the tank, on a hunch. It wasn't extra nutrient the plants needed in the basement, it was probably light. Now seems everything is sprouting new leaves. Anubias-








Buces-
























Crypt undulata is standing more upright








Crypt balansae has new leaves unfolding with crinkles-








Apono caupronii in the background-








tiny fiddlehead








and new leaves on java ferns-








Even my anubias afzelli, a very slow grower, has a new leaf sprouting on each plant-
















can't wait to see more growth in here


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My angels spawned _again_ yesterday. I saw them cleaning anubias leaves two days ago but never saw them actually laying the eggs. They're very neat and tidy this time, all the eggs fit perfectly on one leaf surface. But- it was the day I intended to lift several hardscape pieces out of the tank and re-fasten things with fishing line- a lot of the rubber band ties have broken and several plants were floating around- including one large anubias. I did half the water change so level was lower, and lifted out all the small wood anchors first. Pleased to see that my crypt undulata has new white roots and a tiny new plantlet growing from rhizome offshoot.
















I retied a few more smaller plants but didn't get any more photos, being anxious to get the work done and do it carefully to avoid upsetting my angelfish. Not too successful at that. The last plant that needed to be retied went on the same large wood hardscape as the anubias they'd laid the eggs on. Opposite end, but still. I didn't want to lift it out of the tank- I am not trying to save this batch but I didn't want to freak the parents out _too_ much. I tied a large loop of fishing line and worked it over the bare end of the wood, then tried to wedge the plant back under it, pull the ends to tighten, and trim the line. All this in small stages stepping back from the tank between each step to give the fishes a break. They were attacking me. At first it was kind of funny- Skye didn't really nip, it felt like he was just tapping my hand with his mouth- I don't know if he doesn't feel as passionate about being protective as the female, or doesn't strike as hard because of his old mouth injuries?

M Beautiful, she really went after me. At first just taps but then she started ramming hard, over and over, from further distances to get more force behind it. I'd lift my hands out after each strike she made and step back for a few minutes- mostly because it was a bit distracting- didn't really hurt me- but also because I thought it would make her _think_ she was succeeding in driving me away. But she was so determined it got hard to finish the small task I was trying to do, so I did something mean. Got my biggest fish net (a new purchase) and trapped her in a corner so she couldn't bother me. She managed to scoot it closer and jabbed at me _through_ the net, but then I was done.

I let her out and finished pouring in the new water, left them alone. Really expected to see them eat all the eggs after being so stressed out, but I saw them both very meticulously fanning, all afternoon. They still might eat them overnight. Which is okay.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*they did eat the eggs-*

and then spawned again, and then fought. A day after they laid eggs this last time, it was due for tank maintenance, and a filter cleaning. I worked very slow and methodical, and lifted the filter sponge out as smoothly as possible. The female threatened me, but didn't actually try to strike. And to my surprise, this time they kept carefully tending the eggs afterwards- I really thought they would eat them all. So it looked well.

Then my youngest had some friends over- they were very careful not to tap the tank (they have guppies at home) but did crowd around to ooo and ahhh and point at my angels- and maybe that stressed the fish out. Next day they had cleared the leaf, and were fighting- striking so hard at each other I could hear it through the glass. M Beautiful has red bruises under her skin, and was breathing hard. I also saw them lip-locking, first time observing that.








On a good note, some new plants in here- I anchored individual stems of elodea to glass beads, they haven't even melted. 
























The dwarf water lettuce I added a while back is doing okay- growing slowly, and showing new roots. (In the 20H, water lettuce all died) I was away on vacation four days a while ago, and I guess the lack of nutrients (fish not eating = no poop) was too much for the java fern. Most of the leaves severely died off- but the new fiddleheads look alright still. Perhaps it was also the lack of leaf litter- has disintegrated again, I'm prepping more oak leaves to put in.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I thought my older anubias leaves in the angelfish tank were dying off from changes, that's why the older leaves browned with algae and the newer ones fresh, bright green. But no- after a week of cloudy weather, and the angle of sun coming into the room shifting with the advancing season, the amount of direct light that hits this tank in the morning has reduced- and the older leaves are coming clean again.








I emptied my 20H the other day- moved the fake plant and size II sponge filter from that tank in here- mostly because if I ever have to set up the 20H as emergency housing for an angelfish again, I can pull them out and have something with live bacteria on it, to jump-start a cycle. They're in the background.








I also moved in here my four striped kuhli loaches (the black ones got re-homed a while ago). Not ideal- I'd rather try brochis splendens as bottom-dweller, but my youngest was so sad to see the little cories go, and upset when I told her I was also thinking of re-homing the last kuhlis. Plus, she thinks the angelfish are _boring_- "all they do is sit around, or swim straight slowly, and then swim up if you feed them". (But they're _beautiful_)! She likes watching the kuhli antics. So I kept them. I put more leaf litter in today, so they have plenty to hide under. They seemed to feel right at home.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Read this thread with interest since I'm setting up a new tank with the intention of breeding angels eventually. Managed to spawn my angels when I was a kid, but never got wrigglers. (Turned out they were both females and the eggs weren't fertilized so just turned white, they'd eat them, and try again. Tragic.)

It's distressing to read how skittish they can get, and hurt themselves. Sounds like when you had the tetras as dither fish it helped. One thing that worked for me was to keep 3 or so guppies or mollies in the tank as dither fish. They were always dropping fry that made a nice snack and seemed to condition them well for breeding--since I didn't have access to much live food except chopped earthworms.

Also, I wonder if having some tall plants or driftwood in the back could give them a more secure-feeling hiding place so they don't crash into the corners. Maybe glue some driftwood branches to a rock or heavy tile for stability, and attach some Java moss or the anubias that you grow so well. Or weight down some tall stem plants like anacharis or hornwort? Though since you keep your nitrates so low, you might need to put them in one of your genius mesh baskets with some root tabs. Since it sounds like you've got more light in the new location, maybe a big sword in a pot would do well--and give them bigger leaves to spawn on.

Obviously you're doing a lot right to have gotten this far with them. And I'm jealous of how beautifully you manage to grow your anubias & buces. Looking forward to reading more!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thank you, @Desert Pupfish.

I'm also dismayed how easily they startle and hurt themselves. Curiously, when they have eggs to tend, they don't frighten easily. They were much calmer with dither fish in the tank, but then I decided to take them out because they'd eat fry, and now I wish I'd left them in, because I've decided not to got through all the work (daily large water changes) to raise fry. At least for now. Getting more tetras or something would mean weeks of keeping fish in another QT, though . . . 

I did plant aponogeton, crypt balansae, vallisneria (which died) and more recently, anacharis in hopes that tall plants will help them feel more secure. They just aren't growing very fast, though. You've reminded me I need to add root tabs to my planter baskets! I just stuck that fake plant in the background, it adds some height to the plant cover too, and hoped the dwarf water lettuce floaters would help some as well, but they aren't really spreading yet. A sword is a good idea- my aponogeton doesn't seem to be doing very well, if it dies maybe I will replace with some kind of sword.


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## VioletAqua (Mar 10, 2019)

Very nice tank! What's that stringy stuff around your air line? I like the look of it.


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## CatsMeow (Nov 9, 2009)

I've read through your angelfish journey, and it is fascinating. Cichlids are by far the most interesting aquarium species, I think. I notice that throughout your various plant substitutions, you haven't added much height. My angelfish loved to "hide" in my jungle val, and it really did a lot to dissipate their aggression and skittishness. I wonder if you added some tall plants, if it would give them some relief?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

VioletAqua said:


> Very nice tank! What's that stringy stuff around your air line? I like the look of it.


Thanks. It's roots from the pothos stems I have stuck in the back of the tank lid.



CatsMeow said:


> I've read through your angelfish journey, and it is fascinating. Cichlids are by far the most interesting aquarium species, I think. I notice that throughout your various plant substitutions, you haven't added much height. My angelfish loved to "hide" in my jungle val, and it really did a lot to dissipate their aggression and skittishness. I wonder if you added some tall plants, if it would give them some relief?


Well, I have tried- with vals, some narrow-leaved crypts, aponogeton capuroni, elodea stems. They have all died off to some degree, and never grew back to the height I was hoping for yet.


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## babystarz (Sep 25, 2012)

Have you considered floating plants? I keep water lettuce in my angel tank and I've got some realllllly long roots on them so they do the same thing as tall plants as far as breaking up line of sight. Ironically I do not have problems with my current angel pair getting along at all but I'm sure if they did it would be helpful.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yes, @babystarz. I have tried hornwort, amazon frogbit and red root floaters. All died. Right now I do have dwarf water lettuce- it revived from the shipping stress and adjustment of being in a different tank, but hasn't yet spread a lot or grown long roots. I really hope it will grow long roots just like yours.

Now I'm thinking I will anchor some of the elodea stems to braided fishing lines, up five or six inches off the bottom. It might look silly, but will give some plant height and if they continue growing, I can tie further down when they're taller, until they are sitting on the bottom again . . .


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## CatsMeow (Nov 9, 2009)

JJ09 said:


> Well, I have tried- with vals, some narrow-leaved crypts, aponogeton capuroni, elodea stems. They have all died off to some degree, and never grew back to the height I was hoping for yet.


Interesting. Now that you mention it, I remember seeing some of your pics with val tied to wood. Have you tried planting them (and the crypts, etc.) in a substrate, with root tabs? My vals took off in just simple play sand with root tabs. I think they must be heavy root feeders (I've found that with swords too), and the root tabs really help give them a boost. 

I also agree with the floating plants - maybe Amazon Frogbit? That gets some big roots too.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks for being helpful @CatsMeow, but I feel like you didn't actually read what I wrote. I just mentioned in the last comment that I've HAD amazon frogbit in here, and it died. I've never tied vals onto wood- bolbitis, anubias and buce- not val. There ARE vals in this tank, and I have them planted in substrate in those baskets I made. I do give them root tabs.


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## CatsMeow (Nov 9, 2009)

Oh, sorry - I missed that! I thought you were saying you had water lettuce that hadn't been doing well. 

I saw this post, and thought you had val tied down as well as planted. 



JJ09 said:


> *from 6/13-*
> vallisneria- I added a few more


In any event, I'm loving your posts. My angels spawned a lot, but I never ended up with a successful brood. I'll live vicariously through your updates.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Whoops- yeah, I did tie down a few vals like that once (I had forgotten). I've long since planted them in the basket. Now I've mostly got individual elodea tethered in that way.

My water lettuce is doing okay- it seems to be making a slow recovery/adjustment to my tank after I got it in a shipped package. It might just take it more time to grow out and spread.

I had frogbit before- months ago- and it pretty much melted away to nothing. I haven't tried it again since I moved the tank to a different location. Maybe it would do differently now.


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## shattersea (Sep 6, 2013)

In my experience, floating plants need minimal surface agitation and some nitrates in the water to grow well.


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## babystarz (Sep 25, 2012)

JJ09 said:


> Yes, @babystarz. I have tried hornwort, amazon frogbit and red root floaters. All died. Right now I do have dwarf water lettuce- it revived from the shipping stress and adjustment of being in a different tank, but hasn't yet spread a lot or grown long roots. I really hope it will grow long roots just like yours.
> 
> Now I'm thinking I will anchor some of the elodea stems to braided fishing lines, up five or six inches off the bottom. It might look silly, but will give some plant height and if they continue growing, I can tie further down when they're taller, until they are sitting on the bottom again . . .


I have some tips for water lettuce! #1 is, if there's any surface movement in the tank I suggest creating a "corral" for the water lettuce out of airline tubing just above the water surface and suction cups (much like lap lanes are divided by floating lines in swimming pools). I like this because they can get whipped around when they're small which they don't like (they really don't like it when their leaves are submerged). 

And #2, if you want the crazy long roots, make sure you are removing the smallest plants weekly when they start to crowd each other. By selecting out the smallest plants you're giving more nutrients to the bigger plants and you'll eventually end up with a few HUGE mother plants with tons of long roots and they will throw out their own little plantlets to create a floating island. I've had success with this method in 6+ tanks now.

I do find water lettuce to be quite forgiving compared to frogbit or red root floaters and they don't have huge lighting demands (mine have a cheap NICREW LED strip and are somewhat close to windows). So as long as you can keep the leaves above water they will really take off. If you ever need more just let me know, I'm throwing so much out weekly I'd just send a ton to you for the cost of shipping.

Also just FYI - there's no such thing as "dwarf" lettuce - all water lettuce has the potential to get huge and it's just sold under that name in the aquarium trade for some reason. So don't be surprised by how big the mother plants can get  I haven't had one outgrow a tank or anything but this might influence how many you cultivate if you still want some light to reach your other plants. That's the other reason for removing the baby plants weekly.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks for the tips. I'll try some of that.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

I know this is the plantedtank forum, but to keep your fish from being so skittish it might be worth putting in some tall plastic plants until yours grow taller, or you find some other plants that work in your tank. Just hate to read about them crashing into the walls like that.

As for quarantining dither fish, if you don't have an available extra tank, I've successfully kept hardy livebearers like guppies & mollies in a 5gal bucket with an airstone & a few floating plants for a few weeks while waiting for a tank to cycle. Floaters seem to need a lot of light, so some people keep them in a bucket or tub on the deck or patio in warm weather where they grow really quickly. You might need slowly move them into the shade to acclimate them so they don't melt when you put them in your tank. That might be a good way to get water lettuce with the really long roots you're looking for. 

Also, is the tank considerably darker than the ambient light in the room? If so, that might be why outside movement startles them so much. Maybe upping the light in the tank would make the outside movement less noticeable & less scary? Just a thought. And the extra light would help your plants grow faster. 

Love your idea of tying down the elodea with fishing line--let us know how that works for you. If you keep experimenting something's bound to work for you!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Desert Pupfish said:


> I know this is the plantedtank forum . . .


My tallest plastic plant recently went into the tank. 
The elodea stems keep coming loose from their anchors, and several are now floating. Probably because the bottom ends are melting as they adjust (I recently moved them in from a diff tank).

Yeah, I don't have a proper spare QT tank right now because my betta tank busted a seam a few weeks ago, and I had to move him into the empty 10g that was usually for QT/hospital use. I do have several clean 5gal buckets, and I have two plastic tubs- one holds 8 gal the other just under 5 gal, that I have used for QT in a pinch. Don't really like to, I can't see the fish well through the plastic sides which are only semi-translucent.

My tank used to be in a spot in basement hall where it was always very dark. It gets a ton of ambient light now, by comparison. The angelfish are actually doing much better now than when they were downstairs- they don't startle _every_ time I walk near the tank like they used to. So there is some gradual improvement there, but I'm hoping for more.

I once had water lettuce in an outdoor container for the summer- it did great- but when I moved it in hoping to keep in one of my aquariums over winter, it never adjusted. Melted away. I'm afraid if I put some of my water lettuce outside to beef it up, that would happen again?

Thanks for all the suggestions, though. 
(Won't angelfish eat guppies? I think I'd need a dither fish bit larger)


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

JJ09 said:


> (Won't angelfish eat guppies? I think I'd need a dither fish bit larger)


In my experience they didn't bother the full grown adult guppies, but would eat the fry. That was my way of providing an in-house source of live food--it did a good job of getting them into spawning condition. I had one male & 2-3 female guppies so the male could divide his attention between his harem, and not hassle just one female. And the more females, the more fry to eat.

Mollies or platys would be larger livebearer options if your angels are especially large or are unusually aggressive predators. 

Good luck with the elodea--hopefully i'll adjust so you can successfully tie it down. Did the branches you had initially help reduce their skittishness? If so, maybe some driftwood branches could help. You could tie on some of those anubias you grow so well.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I am not sure if the branches helped, initially. When my angelfish were in the basement, they startled _all the time_, and I'd often find the branches knocked out of place. I thought at the time, the wood was falling over too easy and that scared the fishes. But it could be the other way around- they were just scared because of being in the dark hallway, and bumped into the branches when dashing around the tank. It might be worthwhile for me to try branches again, and make them more secure- anchor on slate or something. I did really like the look of it.


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## CatsMeow (Nov 9, 2009)

babystarz said:


> Also just FYI - there's no such thing as "dwarf" lettuce - all water lettuce has the potential to get huge and it's just sold under that name in the aquarium trade for some reason. So don't be surprised by how big the mother plants can get .


That's crazy! I've seen some massive water lettuce at the LFS here for ponds. Can't believe it's the same stuff. Wow. I just got some frogbit the other day, and it had a couple massive chunks of salvinia mixed in (the guy at the store told me he'd thrown in red root floater - he was wrong). Not sure how you confuse those two, but whatever. It isn't something I would have picked on my own, but the fish seem to like it so...


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*Well, I'm following your suggestions, guys*

I retied most of the elodea stems higher up, so they are immediately taller. Doesn't look like much in the photo, but they're all held five or six inches up off the ground now. I tied one end of each line to a glass bead anchor, made the other end tight over tip of aquascaping tweezers then slid it off as a loop, put that over end of a stem, so it just hooks on a pair of leaves. (Tying straight onto the stems, which I tried first, broke them. Also I braided the first one, but then it was too difficult to tie the loop, being thicker. So just used one strand on the rest -it's heavier weight fishing line though). I only re-tied the elodea pieces that have new growth. The older parts of stems are dying off but very slowly, so I cut them into two- or three-inch segments and left floating, in case they will grow more.








On left below here, can just see the line of elodea stems retied- the angelfish is swimming past it (I dimmed out the white filter lift tube and its reflection w/photoshop). Also I made two airline corrals for the water lettuce. The larger ring holds all the small ones (right lower edge of it just visible here).








Smaller airline loop corrals the few slightly larger water lettuces. They're not doing as badly as I thought- tiny new plants are growing off a few of them, but I guess I should pinch those off?








I also put root tabs in the substrate baskets for vals, crypt balansae and aponogeton capuronii in here.

My angels are bolder this morning- but they're also in breeding colors again, so I can't say it's due to the few changes I made with plants already. When I sprinkled food in the tank for them, Skye rushed to one side where the food was, M Beautiful just looked at me expectantly on her side. I didn't want to put the food inside the water lettuce ring, so I put my finger in front her her and slid it slowly to the other side and up. She followed the motion and found her breakfast. I found it slightly pleasing, just because she never did it before- follow my finger.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*updates*

*May 25- *
received package in the mail, bought a few plants (thanks @natemcnutty!) - _Hydrocotyle leucocephala_ aka brazilian pennywort








which I put in here as a floater- at first it was kinda a jumble-








and Mermaid weed- one I have wanted to try for a very long time- the foliage is pretty- but I'm not sure if it will continue to look so nice when adjusted to my tank, I don't run high lights or C02 like the seller did- species name is _Proserpinaca palustris_








the stems were a bit bent from the package, but very long so I wanted to utilize their height immediately. I anchored the longest stem to a small mesh bag of sintered glass media -








and a shorter one to a small piece of driftwood. Already the plant is taller than my tallest elodea- even though the top is still bent over








I really like the fringed, toothy edges of the leaves-









*May 28-*
I clipped off the tops which remained folded/bent over- rest of the mermaid weed started to look more upright-









*Yesterday- *
I think things are finally taking a turn for the better, in my angelfish tank. Today during maintenance I made two new airline rings- so I could separate out the larger of the water lettuces. I discarded a bunch of tiny ones and others that looked unhealthy. They're in three groups now.








After a week of letting the hydrocotyle settle, I clipped off all the leaves that were still bent oddly, making it an untidy clump. Now it's in more pieces, but they lie relatively flat leaves floating and stolons just under the surface. And it's more spread out- here's a bit








The angels seem to find this sheltering, along with the height of the elodea (which is growing!) and new mermaid weed- although they still have a way to go before getting near the surface! Lately the fish don't startle as easily, and haven't once lost their color- they get a pit pale sometimes but never loose the stripes. When frightened, they tend to swing away and cruise behind something,








then circle back and eye me again. It is _much_ better!








The mermaid weed is sprouting roots along the stem but lower parts haven't melted so far and tops remain relatively green. I'm hopeful the conditions are okay for it in here. I lifted the shorter one higher by putting its small wood anchor on the other driftwood piece, wedged behind an anubias. I also removed the windowscreen piece that was dimming my light- assuming the pennywort (hydrocotyle) might need brighter light, and will shade everything as it spreads across the surface.








I did a lot of work in the tank today- in addition to what I've already mentioned and the usual water change, cleared out a few dead leaves, lifted a filter sponge to rinse, and last of all wiped down inside of the front glass which had some algae. First time I ever did so in this tank, and the angels dashed away at that motion, bashed their faces into corners again. They both have bruises on the face now, I am cringing. But I hope this happens less and less, especially as the new plants fill in and multiply.

Female has for weeks now shown this redness where her pectorals meet the body- I was afraid at first of septicemia, but I gather she would be dead by now if that were it. I don't know if it's injuries from running into the walls, or fighting. They both have some scraped scales from fighting recently. I saw the female actually grab the male's ventral and tug on it! She shakes threateningly at him a lot. I get the impression she wants to spawn again and he's not really interested.








But overall it is better. They look calmer, and appear friendlier towards me- positively wag their whole bodies begging for attention if I'm nearby in the kitchen and haven't fed them yet for the morning.

I took all these photos rather quickly, during the day- so they're not as crisp and have reflections from the room. Will get better ones at night soon, when the tank looks its best.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*full tank shot*


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Your tank is looking great! The mermaid weed is indeed lovely--hope you have better luck than I did. Mine started shedding leaves almost immediately, and what didn't shed melted. After a week there was nothing left--and the melt fueled a massive hair algae outbreak. Granted, this was in a newly cycled tank, so it may just need more stable parameters to survive the transition.

I'm also finding that some of my new stem plants like ludwigia do better floating (or stuck in the java fern like one) than planted--putting out new leaves & roots. So good idea to split them up and try rooting some and let others float. The only foolproof one I have that's outpacing the algae is Hygrophila "Tropic Sunset". Probably too well. Already need to cut & replant after less than 2 wks

Looking forward to see how yours fare....


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

So far, so good now! The mermaid weed has shed a few leaves, but is putting out lots of new shoots at the nodes. More of the elodea pieces have new growth, too. Current of the two filters keeps pushing all the pennywort into a bunch in the center. Not sure if I want to do something about that, yet- put in another large airline corral to buffer the ripples, change position of the filters or maybe just lower the flow a bit. Angels are spawning again, great colors, breeding tubes out, vigorously cleaning a leaf. My kid begs me to get "the special live baby fish food" but we have too many interruptions with summer coming up- I'd hate to get them well along the way, and then be gone and see it all fail. 

She wrote about my angelfish for a school assignment (2nd grade):

_"My mom's angel fish (Sky and Mrs. Butifel) lay eggs!
But . . . 
the other fish ate the eggs!
The angel fish keep on 
trying and
trying
till they get it right"_


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*a week ago-*

Something is happy in my angelfish tank. This anubias is flowering!
















Some of the others have new shoots- I can't quite tell yet if this one is going to be a flower spathe, or just a new leaf.








Mermaid weed is rapidly shedding the old, original leaves now, and new ones growing out on the ends of the stems. They all look disappointingly smaller, though. I don't know if will grow out to similar size or stay so small.








My male angelfish Skye is moving out.








The female has been attacking him with more and more force. I've watched it several times now- he tips his chin up, showing her his belly, backing away and sliding down until he's in a corner or behind a chunk of wood out of sight. She sits in the center of the tank and swings to strike immediately if he came out, planing her body horizontal and hitting him with such force I can hear it outside the tank.








I also heard a lot of dull knocking or clicking kind of noises, I thought it was an odd sound coming from the equipment, but checked it all and found nothing amiss. Then I noticed I heard the noise when the angels where threatening each other, jerking little shakes with pelvic fins spread in a v, or darting and biting. I looked online and found other angelfish keepers have reported hearing such noises when the fish are "agitated". Well. I think it was M. Beautiful making the noise as a threat to Skye.








Since I moved Skye out of the tank. I have not heard the sound again. M. Beautiful looks kind of at a loss, sitting around, dull of color- I don't know if she actually misses him, how could she, after protesting his presence in the tank so strongly? Probably she was stressed out by the moves I made in the tank to catch Skye, although I did so carefully, using a plastic box not the net (to avoid damaging his fin extensions). I'm considering moving back to my old plan, getting dither fish again (sigh).


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## walluby (Dec 3, 2007)

*fish*

I think if you had more angelfish in with the pair,
there would be less hostility.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

JJ09 said:


> I found a better way to do my water changes. Traditional vacuum is no good in a tank without real substrate. I got a piece of tubing, attached a rigid pipe on the end long enough to reach the bottom easily, and I can maneuver it into crevices to remove mulm. Rubber-banded a bit of mesh on the end to prevent larger pieces of leaf getting sucked up. Works a charm.


Was reading through your old posts & just came across this. I had the same idea, since I have a 24" tall 55G on a tall stand, so there's no way really for my short self to vacuum the bottom and be able to see what I'm doing through the glass. And the tube on the Python gravel vac I bought isn't quite long enough, and at 2" wide is way too strong so I end up sucking out ghost shrimp & guppy fry. I've got enough plants in there that there's really not much open gravel for me to vacuum anyway, so the gravel vac is kind of a waste.

What size rigid pipe do you use? The local hardware & home improvement stores have clear vinyl tubing in lots of sizes, but no clear rigid pipe. But I did find 5/8" & 1" polycarbonate tubes on Amazon. 

Haven't seen you here in awhile. How are your angels doing?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

walluby said:


> I think if you had more angelfish in with the pair,
> there would be less hostility.


I considered it. I would love to have more angels. But then what do I do when two of them pair off and attack the others, to claim the tank? Right back where I am now . . . 



Desert Pupfish said:


> Was reading through your old posts & just came across this. I had the same idea, since I have a 24" tall 55G on a tall stand, so there's no way really for my short self to vacuum the bottom and be able to see what I'm doing through the glass. And the tube on the Python gravel vac I bought isn't quite long enough, and at 2" wide is way too strong so I end up sucking out ghost shrimp & guppy fry. I've got enough plants in there that there's really not much open gravel for me to vacuum anyway, so the gravel vac is kind of a waste.
> 
> What size rigid pipe do you use? The local hardware & home improvement stores have clear vinyl tubing in lots of sizes, but no clear rigid pipe. But I did find 5/8" & 1" polycarbonate tubes on Amazon.
> 
> Haven't seen you here in awhile. How are your angels doing?


Mine is a 1/2" pvc pipe, it's not clear but white. The flexible tubing I attached it to _is _clear, though. I think it's 3/4"? the kind that was on the original siphon vac I bought. I had to force the tubing into the rigid pipe, cut a slot into and also used rough sandpaper to widen inside surface of the pipe, but it barely goes in. I heated the tubing too, to make it soft and shove it in there. Still comes loose occasionally. I don't use the mesh over the end anymore, just watch careful where I'm placing it. Works pretty well, in spite of a few flaws. I can take a photo of it if you like to see.

My angels- well, I had to separate them again. Fighting got pretty nasty. I thought the female was going to kill the male. Planing her body sideways and hitting him so hard I could _hear_ it. I re-homed him yesterday and am getting together dither fish for the tank again.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

JJ09 said:


> Mine is a 1/2" pvc pipe, it's not clear but white. The flexible tubing I attached it to _is _clear, though. I think it's 3/4"? the kind that was on the original siphon vac I bought. I had to force the tubing into the rigid pipe, cut a slot into and also used rough sandpaper to widen inside surface of the pipe, but it barely goes in. I heated the tubing too, to make it soft and shove it in there. Still comes loose occasionally. I don't use the mesh over the end anymore, just watch careful where I'm placing it. Works pretty well, in spite of a few flaws. I can take a photo of it if you like to see.
> 
> My angels- well, I had to separate them again. Fighting got pretty nasty. I thought the female was going to kill the male. Planing her body sideways and hitting him so hard I could _hear_ it. I re-homed him yesterday and am getting together dither fish for the tank again.


Plain PVC makes sense--I've got lots in the garage leftover from irrigation installation. But I need to see what I'm sucking up since I've got so many guppy fry & ghost shrimp in there now. Good idea to put some netting over it if that's still an issue. Went ahead and ordered a 1 meter length of 5/8" polycarbonate tubing that should be here in a day or two. Will measure it in my tank first to see what length is easiest to use. I seem to have torn my rotator cuff, so this'll be a lot better than balancing on a chair and diving up my armpit into the tank, unable to see what I'm doing. 

Sorry to hear about the marital discord with your angel pair. Dither fish should help give your bully something else to focus on, hopefully. You planning to buy some, or transferring fish from one of your tanks? And are you gonna get Mrs Beautiful another mate? Do they have Tinder for angelfish?


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

After years of keeping angels in various sized tanks (45, 55, 65, 125) I decided I wouldn't keep them in anything less than a 75. The bigger the better IMO. Even if the aggression doesn't end up killing any of them I just found it unpleasant to watch and is stressed me out. Beautiful tank though and nice angels.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

JJ09 said:


> I considered it. I would love to have more angels. But then what do I do when two of them pair off and attack the others, to claim the tank? Right back where I am now . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Any dither fish... I remember you had some ?tetras in there before they were spawning it before you moved the tank. Maybe that’s all you’re missing to make them feel more comfortable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yeah, I'm moving black skirt tetras back in. Unfortunately I had got rid of the group I had when the angels were spawning and harassing them so much. Now I went out and bought a new bunch- have a dozen in QT as of yesterday. Don't know if I will try and find a new mate for her. I feel doubtful how many angels I'd have to go through to find one that gets along well? or put a group in there and let some pair off and get rid of the others- I know that's usually how it's done. But I really never wanted to get into the business of raising fry- even though it was super exciting to see the few wigglers once. I think I'll be satisfied with one Beautiful and a few others drifting among the plants.

Meant to do more update when I have photos to post, but here's a few notes anyway. All my water lettuce melted away. I moved some to another tank but it melted there too. The brazilian pennywort is doing well, though. My hornwort in the shrimp bowl looks like it's dying, but I just went to local fish club today and got a handful of hornwort there- nice thick stuff, turned out to be a few very long strands. I pegged them down with glass bead weights (that some elodea came loose from) and suddenly my angel tank has plants with height! It looks different and much improved. However don't know if the hornwort will keep, it's melted on me in here before, too. I ordered a few new pieces for my filtration- taller uplift tubes because I read it will help with circulation to have the tube go almost all way to water surface. Going to try it. Can always switch back if I don't like it.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well, Skye spent six days in a five-gallon bucket with a tiny sponge filter, some bits of hardscape and plants pulled out of the tank and a 50 watt heater on its lowest setting- which kept the temperature at 78°. He quit eating and went pale but at least he was alive, not killed by M Beautiful (which I really feared would happen if I left them together longer). I posted in several forums and the club online, someone came and picked him up. A guy who breeds angels as a hobby, so I feel relieved he has a good home now.

Meanwhile M Beautiful suddenly alone looked washed out, and crashed into walls of the tank again, startled when I approached with the hose to clean the tank the other day. Bruised her face again. Even though I was careful not to make sudden movements. Sigh.

I transferred all the stuff from Skye's bucket into my eight gallon tote, went to several different pet stores in driving distance. Brought home one full-grown black skirt tetra from LFS, and nine smaller ones from two of the better chain stores (in terms of fish health/cleanliness in their tanks). The larger tetra went straight into my angel tank, after being acclimated. I took the chance. All the fish at that place looked great- I did not see a single sick fish- and I'm worried about M Beautiful being alone and jittery. The tetra was lying low the first few hours after release, but sat around calmly center of tank later in the evening, and next morning when realized I was feeding- first a bit of bug bites, then some crushed cooked pea- which the angel spat out- it darted around quick to grab the food, that's good to see. M Beautiful has colored up nicely again and doesn't startle as much now.

The smaller tetras are in two QT bins- I'm going to put them through a full week or two of quarantine. They were very pale when I first introduced them- but in spite of the bins cycling a bit- I checked parameters and did a partial wc next morning- they had colored up by morning and fed eagerly next day. One is still kinda pale. The first bin is cycling- zero ammonia but some nitrites so I'm doing daily wc and keeping a close eye- but funny enough the fish in there are bolder and better-colored than the four in the second bin- which already fully cycled. (In the QT bin that's already fully cycled, I put a large chunk of driftwood out of the main tank that has just one buce tied on it- I guess that had a lot more live bacteria on it than the few plants and piece of sponge I put in the first bin to boost cycle). 

Well and all, so very soon I hope to have a whole school of ten in the angel tank, and things will be settled.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

some of the new tetras- one that's in the angel tank








five that went into quarantine


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Always looking to make minor improvements.. . . . I added hornwort recently again- just because there was some available for free at fish club. I don't know if these will last- surprisingly they aren't dropping tons of needles right away, so maybe. I'm glad it gives plant height again, as some of my elodea the bottom ends of stems melted so they're shorter now, and the taller fake plant went into QT with the tetras.








I got taller uplift tubes; now the tank looks tidier (not the reason I put them in, but a nice bonus), I hope the flow is better with increased circulation. I noticed right away when I finished installing the new uplifts, the single black skirt tetra quit hiding behind anubias and started moving alert around the tank. Maybe he feels the difference. I also pulled off most of the rubber bands that were still on driftwood pieces, not needed as roots have taken hold. It's a small thing, but looks nicer without those white ties.








My aponogeton capuronii in the background is finally growing out a bit more. I'm kinda frustrated that all the vallisneria died out, and that the floaters I wanted- frogbit, water lettuce- also died on me in here. Maybe I will try another kind of val species, or get more aponogeton and see how they do.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

The tank looks great. Here's hoping Ms. Beautiful will be happier as a Single Lady with some company....

The hornwort really makes a difference with the added height. It'll keep you busy though. I put some in as filler, and in the space of a week it filled nearly the top 1/3 of the tank. It grew so fast it shaded the bottoms and they started to turn brown so I gave away & tossed most of it. Maybe if you keep cutting off the tops & replanting them, and discarding the bottoms that would manage them while still allowing you to have some height. Looks good though.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

@Desert Pupfish Yeah, i was planning on trimming and replacing tops as long as I need this in there to add plant mass. Really hoping my aponogeton and crypt balansae will grow out, or that I can get some vals going in there somewhere- i prefer the 'grassy' look of them. But for now if the hornwort thrives, I'll be happy to have something green to fill in. I've had it before in other tanks. It did really well as a floater, but I prefer the brazilian pennywort to fill in up on the surface.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I had two groups of black skirt tetras going through quarantine. It was almost two weeks, then up came a family vacation (bad timing on my part, I shouldn't have got new fish close to a trip). One group of tetras looked great, I put them in the angelfish tank. Other group had signs of ich and fungus. I returned those to the store. 

Came home from vacation and the tetras in here look well- good color, alert, super eager to eat. But on closer inspection a few of them had specks of ich on fins. Either they had it when I got them and my QT wasn't long enough, or I somehow cross-contaminated even though I use different siphon hose for each tank, and wash hands between. Dang. Angelfish doesn't show spots but yesterday was definitely looking irritated and flashing, scraping on stuff, especially her head so I'm worried it's in her gills. I have to order meds online- the stores don't have anything around here. Meanwhile am raising the temperature- got it up to 82° now and so far all the fishes doing fine with that- and doing a 50% water change every other day- glad of the bare bottom, hoping I can physically remove a lot of it.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well, I think I may have just beat this (phew!!) before it became a fullblown outbreak. I've kept the temp up - my heater will only hold it at 82, I'd have to add a second heater to get it higher. It's been five days since any of the fish showed spots or were flashing. I've continued to do 50% wc every other day, trying to clean the bottom as thoroughly as possible. I have a separate hose for every tank, but all my other equipment is shared so I have been rinsing with tap, drying with towels that then get discarded, and air-drying in hot sun all the other stuff I touch when I do the water change. Buckets, refill pitcher, stir stick, etc. It's over ninety outside so I hope the heat and sun kills any bit of ich that might linger on something. Also I don't touch any other tank on the day I clean this one, and wash my hands well. And I've been feeding the fishes in here extra, just to keep nutrient levels up so my plants don't wipe out from it all being so super clean. Fingers crossed. I think if the fishes continue to look clear by wed I'll relax again.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My angelfish M Beautiful looks great- if you ignore the continued redness where her pectorals join the body, and she seems to always have a red area under the skin between nose and eye, too. I still don't know if this is old injuries from hitting the tank walls, or infection. I'm considering dosing the tank with meds that treat for septicemia... I noticed lately her breeding tube is showing and her stripe contrast vivid, but I don't see her cleaning any leaves or chasing the tetras.








They're doing well, too. This is the largest one.








The smaller guys it's hard to get any pictures of. They're starting to catch up in size. All have good color, hearty appetites, and are starting to beg from me at the front glass alongside M Beautiful. I think I beat the ich. Haven't seen any signs of it in over a week. I've quit doing the extra water changes, and started gradually dropping the temperature back down to normal. It's at 80 now.








My plants seem glad of the reduced water changes- more nutrients stay in the water column longer- and probably of the increased fish population, too. I've also added new leaf litter. Here's buce 'isabella':








Buces 'brownie ghost'.








Buce 'green wavy' and the round-leaved one I think it's called 'emerald green'. Closeup photo made me realize it's got some black algae on a few leaf margins, I'm going to lift out and trim that off.








Anubias afzelli. In background there's java ferns on top of a planter. I had lifted some of the smaller driftwood anchor pieces up onto planters when I was doing the frequent water changes, to make it easier to vacuum the bottom. (All the vals that in that planter have died).








The other anubias all look pretty healthy. New leaves:








Here's the crypt undulata (out of focus).








I added some blue ramshorn snails got from local fish club.








Full tank shot. Yes, the hornwort came loose from its anchors and I didn't re-tie down. It seems to really prefer floating. But now the hydrocotyle is dying off, urgh. It seems that I can only keep one floater going at a time- if I've got two, one always does poorly.








My light timer got screwed up. Had a power outage recently- all night- and when it came back on, the dimming part of the internal timer wasn't working properly. By the time I got it reset, the tank had gotten several days with eight hours full light each. I was going to cut it back, but the plants look better than ever. I reset it to dim after seven and a half, keeping an eye out for signs of algae (um, such as- that bit of BBA on the buce leaf)


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Got a few photos of blue ramshorns in here. On the underside of anubias (I don't know why, isn't there more algae on the _top_ of the leaves? maybe the angel was nipping at their feelers and they hid).








Crawling over wood- there's a new leaf on the crypt undulata!








I like these snails so much, I have started picking out all their competitors- the trumpet snails and the ordinary brown and leopard ramshorns. It's easier right now because the snails keep gathering on the leaf litter. I've read that the blue color is a recessive trait, so if you have both kinds in the tank eventually the blue ones will be fewer, until they're gone. If I pick out enough browns, maybe my blues will multiply?

Bonus pic- ramshorn eggs on the glass of small container I'm keeping them in (to dole out gradually to my paradise fish)


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## GreenBayHuntz3000 (Sep 3, 2019)

So sorry to hear about the angel aggression.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My tetras have been spawning! I've seen it three times now. It happens early in the morning- they will start to chase each other around faster than normal, then two or three swarm up into a corner and dash apart just under the surface. I wasn't sure what I was seeing at first, until I noticed the angelfish hanging nearby, making quick little darts with its lips to pluck something too-small-to-see (for human eyes) out of the water. I looked closer and saw one of the tetras looked very fat, squarish in the belly- must be the gravid female. M Beautiful was eating the eggs. I'm sure any that she missed were found by the kuhli loaches, so I don't expect to ever see any fry, but it's nice to know my black skirt tetras feel so lively and at home.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Few weeks ago I took all the smaller round-leaved and wavy buces out of this tank, moved in here the buce 'isabella' trimmed off the skull in the tenner
















Liked the look of it better-








One of my anubias flowered again-
















Crypt balansae is finally be taking off!








Not sure how my blue ramshorns are doing. I don't see many of them. I found one empty shell, and one snail crawling, and that's it right now. I wonder if M Beautiful has eaten some of them.








Quick full tank shot from 10/1/19:









This past week I moved some stuff around- swapped places with crypt balansae and crypt wendtii








Aponogeton capuronii more in view now- still don't know if this one will ever grow big and beautiful again-








lost height with plants, again. Hornwort stems all do better as floaters (no more pennywort, it all melted away)- so. Angelfish has been hanging around staring at the back wall a lot lately, or driving viciously planed horizontal strikes at the tetras. Doesn't bash into walls anymore, but is often pale and hides. I think has been unhappy. Until the other day I added some of the parrot's feather. At first the angelfish stayed on the far side of the tank from it-








while the tetras darted in and out of it immediately. I put it in back center spot- in the narrower planter basket that used to have (failed) vallisneria








Hope it will do better than the mermaid weed- that's the last piece of it center right- which I just pulled out and moved to the window tank where it does marginally better.








The planter of parrot's feather is forward off the wall, there's an inch or so gap so the fishes can cruise behind it feeling sheltered.








and it really seems to have made a difference. My angel suddenly seems- content. Even- happy?








I took this photo from across the room in evening. M Beautiful was moving slowly behind the bunch of parrot's feather, then she slid between the stems to front, and I saw her tail waggle, I swear she looked pleased. She kept going back and forth, behind and through the plants.








But ooh, it grows fast: this photo taken one day later:








I stuck a few pieces in the back of the lid, too:








Well, if it makes my angel happy, maybe I can put up with constantly thwarting its rapid growth- cut back the tallest stems each week and let them regrow- we'll see . . . (more about this addition in my window tank journal thread)








Few days ago I got three more black skirt tetras- from a nice aquarium shop across the Potomac in Rockville. In QT now. They're a bit pale, and hiding some-
















but the smallest bold enough came out to nip end of the airline hose first time I cleaned their bin! and they've been eating well and starting to spar and chase each other around already. Will probably move into the 45 in a week or so.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Moved the new tetras in. They immediately look at home. And then I bought several large fake plants. Happened to be at a different pet store and found some the height I need. Angelfish actually looks _smaller_ in the tank now, to scale with the plants! The tall darker strappy leaves behind her are fake silk, the brighter shorter green in front is the crypt balansae- I'm still hoping that will grow out enough but it's _so_ slow. The fakes are placeholders. Has the effect I want, but feels like cheating.








Did this mostly because the parrot's feather is dying- I pulled it all out yesterday. I also got a plastic 'willow' type fake plant with tons of small leaves- it's in the back left there- it fills the whole center rear of the tank now- my kid thinks it looks very pretty but as soon as I put it in there I didn't like it. Too unruly and busy- I want more grasslike stuff. Sigh.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Got a new 40lb bag of safe-t-sorb. I followed @Maryland Guppy's recipe https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8771026-post21.html to prep. Reduced by about a fourth, as I only sifted ten pounds out of the bag. It was a ton more baking soda than I'd used before:








and then a good large dosing of dry ferts:








Mixed those into the bucket with the first fill of water, after dry sifting out some dust. It bubbled and burbled, I let it sit for almost two weeks, stirring a few times a day.








Then rinsed and rinsed and rinsed and rinsed and rinsed. With tapwater about ten times, then with all five full buckets of tank wastewater from a maintenance day. Then again a few times with freshly dechorinated water, until it was mostly clear. Pleasantly surprised that the recipe worked so well- when I tested water in the bucket after all the rinsing and it had sat another day, the pH was same as the tank. So I think it worked better this time!

Then I took apart the craft mesh wall I'd once made for my window tank, and sewed up a few new planter baskets. Filled them for some new plants, and topped off substrate in my other tanks.

Got some more plants in a few weeks ago. Crypt spiralis and crypt retrospiralis (yes, trying them _again_).
















So now I've got all kinds of grassy stuff! 








I took the crinum out of my window tank (it was never happy in there) and put it in one of the new planters in here- far background-








It looks like my divided aponogeton capuroni might live after all:








And here's a new grand thing: vallisneria 'rubra'








The strappy foliage is _very_ broad, and it's cool to see the texture








My angelfish seems to feel comfortable with all these new 'grasslike' additions. (I took out the willow-like fake plant. Still have the other one- filling in space on the right).








I just don't know how well the 'rubra' will do longterm, I haven't seen any new foliage grow out yet and am pretty sure the leaf thickness and/or color will differ as it adjusts to my tank.








Also, I had ordered from the same company two new aponogetons- 'longiplumulosis' and 'Boivinianus' which I was really looking forward to growing. Unfortunately, when I opened the package, one bulb was obviously moldy and smelled bad. I had to toss it. I didn't feel it was worth mentioning back as I had gotten them as a two-for-one deal, so one was free. I put the other one in the tank, and a few days later it was covered in white mold as well. Ugh. Both goners. So disappointed.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

The tank is looking great with your new additions. Interested to see how the val rubra does for you, and if it keeps its red color. My jungle val has done well--so well it's popping up throughout the entire tank in the middle of even vigorous plants like the red tiger lily, and even through a piece of cholla. The angels & other fish love it, but I'm tired of trying to contain it. Replacing it with Eleocharis montevidensis--which should look more graceful & grasslike, and hopefully be less aggressive. 

Keep us posted on how your new additions fare for you.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yah, will do. I've had plain old jungle val in my other tanks- it's lingering in my 33 but not doing well at all. I thought to try the red val because someone else noted it grew a lot more vigorously than the more common types. I don't expect it to keep the red color though, because I don't have high light/ C02. If it stays alive and green, and even spreads, I'll be happy!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Finally seems I have a tall plant that will stay tall. The red vals have remained thick and upright, and two have new leaves that attained height quickly. I've pulled off or clipped back a few leaves that were starting to melt but overall it still looks great.








Crossing fingers- looks like this one might be a keeper.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Found some empty ramshorn shells. I think nearly all my blue ones are gone now. Either they got old, or they got eaten.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

JJ09 said:


> Finally seems I have a tall plant that will stay tall. The red vals have remained thick and upright, and two have new leaves that attained height quickly. I've pulled off or clipped back a few leaves that were starting to melt but overall it still looks great.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





JJ09 said:


> Found some empty ramshorn shells. I think nearly all my blue ones are gone now. Either they got old, or they got eaten.


Glad to see your red val & aponogetons doing so well, and that you've finally got enough tall plants to keep your angel happy. Trying to order some aponogetons again myself. Preordered some before, but they didn't get them in so I had to cancel the order. Got tired of battling the jungle val and pulled it all out (almost--one popped up later in the middle of another plant) . Then my 2 of my 10 angels decided to pair off months sooner than expected, and started bullying the others--killing one. And with the jungle val gone there's no place to hide. Wishing I still had my jungle val jungle. Hurriedly setting up a new 75 tank I'd been planning to set up next month, so there'll be enough space for everybody.

What's eating your ramshorns? Your angel? Wish I could teach mine to kill all the MTS I've got (assassin snails aren't keeping up with them--yet) I've heard if you smash them against the glass the fish will eat them, and maybe even learn to go after them by themselves.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Hi @Desert Pupfish. I don't know if anything's eating the snails- I've seen the angel nip at the feelers of the nerites, so I assume she'd nip at and maybe eat ramshorns too. On the other hand, I got these six months ago at already fullsize, it's possible they were just old. I was hoping they'd repopulate, but I haven't seen any little ramshorns in here at all.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Felt a desire to do something to my angelfish tank, so I'd feel more motivated to care for it. I've gone lax with water changes- for a while they were happening about once every ten or twelve days (instread of the usual seven), then two weeks went by and BSA started to show up on glass and anubias leaves, and I felt guilty. Did a larger water change and rinsed one of the filter sponges. I hadn't tested nitrates before working on the tank but the day after they were below 20ppm, so that looks good.

Pulled out one of the fake plants. Snails have been scraping them- probably to eat the algae but also removing part of the surface and then little bits of white float around the aquarium (I think that's what they're from).








Took that one out so I could see better the crypt balansae.








Then on a whim I pegged down a bunch of hornwort stems again. Usually have to thin out the hornwort weekly, it had gotten quite thick on top and was starting to block the light. This time instead of tossing the trimmings, I tied a bunch of stems to pebbles and glass beads, and filled in the tank with vertical lines of green needles again. So they're still in there taking up nutrients.








It looks nice and jungly now, and the tetras are loving it- darting excitedly all over the place. But my angel has suddenly taken to hiding- behind the filter uplift tube and stand of vallisneria rubra.
















I saw a few days prior that one of her pelvic fins had broken, and then it fell off at the break, and now it's split. She came out from the corner to eat when the tank lights were off- her right pelvic is the broken one








split visible
















Doing another wc soon, to get back on the weekly schedule. Hoping with clean water she will heal and the fin grow back? Not sure how it happened, or if it's also part of the reason she's been hiding the past few days. I wonder if something scared her and she crashed into a wall again, though I haven't seen that occur in a long time now. She's also in breeding color now, with egg-laying tube showing again. I wonder if depressed because feeling lonely.

BTW, I see some small blue ramshorns now. So they did reproduce! And I hadn't seen my kuhli loaches in a while, but last night fed the tank inhabitants cooked peas, the kuhlis got very excited about that, and I saw three of them out and about. Tiger, Sassy and Monty. Didn't spot Albert, but I'm sure he's still in there.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

aww good luck with the blue ramshorns!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

M Beautiful quit hiding. Hard to get a photo of her








because when she saw me, pointed her nose straight and waggled back and forth, begging for food!








I'm glad to see her feeling better, or overcome whatever scared her.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

JJ09 said:


> Then on a whim I pegged down a bunch of hornwort stems again. Usually have to thin out the hornwort weekly, it had gotten quite thick on top and was starting to block the light. This time instead of tossing the trimmings, I tied a bunch of stems to pebbles and glass beads, and filled in the tank with vertical lines of green needles again. So they're still in there taking up nutrients.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your tank is looking great! The hornwort looks good that way, but IME it started losing its lower needles, so I had to keep trimming it up from the bottom and reattaching it. But as long as the top keeps growing, you should have some nice tall growth, and only floaters are better at keeping your water clean--even if you slack off on WC

And delighted to see that you've finally got some val doing well for you--I know you battled with that for a long time. Between that and the tall hornwort she should have plenty of hiding places. Though odd that she suddenly gets shy like that--she should be Queen of the Tank....


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks, @Desert Pupfish!

Yep, I've pegged down hornwort like this before in other tanks, I know I'll probably have to retie the ends periodically. Today did wc about a week after tying the stems down, to my surprise the stems are still healthy-looking all the way down to the ties. I trimmed some of the tops off where a new plume was growing, and let the smaller pieces float again. They're mostly in bunches so if do start to degrade at the bottom ends it won't be too much trouble to tie them again. And when it does get to be a pain, I'll once again quit keeping hornwort this way.

This angelfish has been kinda skittish for a long time. I think got frightened too many times when younger, when the tank was in basement hallway they got spooked a lot. I don't see the tetras ever nipping at her, but she does get annoyed with them sometimes. If they're darting in and taking food from in front of her nose, she'll start dashing around to strike at them. Sometimes I skip feeding the tetras and spot-feed the angelfish in a corner. She recognizes my hand and will hover just below it, even jumping a bit to take flake or pellet from my fingers.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My 45 has been struggling a bit again. I try to feed the tetras lean and give the angelfish her own food -she's good at following my hand above the water and will even leap a bit to snatch a bite from my fingers- but the tetras are so quick to dart in and take food right in front of her nose. Sometimes this seems to make her angry- after feeding time she will plane around the tank making vicious dashes at the tetras. (They always evade her).

Vals have grown more and more- the longest reach all the way across the surface now. I trimmed out some older leaves. To my surprise hornwort stems I weighed down haven't deteriorated- they're thriving. I trim them back when they get too tall, and have tied down some more. Angelfish doesn't really like those thickets of stiff needles and kinda stays on the side where the vals are.








The tank had got lots of unsightly black spot algae, especially on anubias. Newer leaves look fine so I trimmed off older ones, cut one rhizome back and tied the piece onto a new spot. I accidentally spilled my bottle of prime a week ago, and kept putting off going to the store to buy more, so the tank missed a water change. I did two partial wc this week, and made sure to rinse out one of the sponge filters too.








But the angelfish has another fin edge deteriorating- the anal fin this time. All the tetras look totally fine, but any drop in water quality she seems to start to get fin rot, which concerns me. I hadn't bothered to test nitrates this time- I knew the tank needed a water change so I just did some. Maybe I should have tested, to know exactly how bad it's gotten.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

aww sad that the tetras have turned out so mean, poor angel just trying to get food

Yeah, I feel you on trying to make the water changes on time. are you still doing the bucket method?

I found that if I invested in a quick water change method like routing a quick drain/fill line up to my tank vs carrying buckets then I was willing to stay on top of the water changers more often.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Don't think the tetras are being mean, haha. Just always have an appetite, and so darn quick! I'd just rather give my angelfish the treats, and think the tetras could easily skip a few days a week really. They're such opportunists though.

I'm usually good on water change schedule. Just with the kids being home 24/7 and medical issues in the family and THEN I wiped out my prime so lagged on it again. Yeah, still using buckets. It really doesn't take me a lot of time- I can change fifteen gallons on the tank, wipe down the glass, trim some plants all in under half an hour. If that's all the maint it needs for the week, no problem. Plus I like to use the tank wastewater on plants outside. They need it in our hot summers here. Letting it go down the drain with a fitted hose, don't want to do do that.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I think my angelfish has septicemia. For a very long time- years actually- she's had redness where the pectorals meet the body. I came up with septicemia before but thought that couldn't be it, as all the accounts I read said that fish die very quickly from the disease. This week, in spite of the fact that I've been feeding more lightly, doing larger water changes and cleaning the filter sponges more frequently than I used to, she's got redness on the body margins, and fin rot on all. Her dorsal is split, anal fin shortened, pelvic and tail fin edges ragged. I feel like I'm failing her.

I started reading more, and somehow my searches turned up a different set of case studies this time- several with fishes that lived _years_ having septicemia. Damn, the symptoms match. I bought kanaplex and started treatment on sunday- today was the second dose. I don't see any improvement yet, although the fin deterioration might have slowed down, it's hard to tell. She still has appetite, but hides in the back nearly all day and doesn't come out to greet me as often, or as eagerly.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I treated the angelfish tank with Kanaplex. Started last sunday, third dose was on thursday. Day before yesterday I did a larger water change- over thirty percent. She looks better. The fins have stopped degrading, the rip in dorsal is healed, pelvic and anal fins are starting to grow back out, and edges of caudal and pectorals look cleaner. Redness on body edges is less. Still looks inflamed at the joint where pectorals join the body, but not as much as before. Will it help to do a second round of kanaplex and how long should I wait to do so.








Tank parameters today: Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrates 10ppm


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Giving the angelfish second round of kanaplex now.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My angelfish completed a second round of kanaplex (last week- I forgot to update). The fins are all growing back nicely. Still red around the pectoral joint. She comes eagerly to the front glass when I approach the tank now, and sometimes goes so avidly for food that water splashes out of the tank. I trimmed the hornwort back and she seems more comfortable without it crowding and blocking the water surface so much. At least, easier to go for the food.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)




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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Um, I got a new tank. Well, it's used but new to me.








How this happened: months ago, someone at fish club offered me a free tank stand that fits 33L or 55, and I took it. Been sitting in my basement. Since then, I'd been on the lookout for an empty 55 gallon- I didn't want someone's complete setup because my plan is to just move all the equipment, plants etc from my 45 into a 55 . . . and then one finally came up! Even with a black backdrop already on it. Pleased.








Did a 24-hour leak test outside. 








It held up fine. I emptied it today (watered the garden and all my shrubs). Now it's sitting inside again on the stand, waiting for the next step. Switching tanks out again is a big job I know from past experience. But I'm wanting to do it. For her sake-








I continue to feel bad for my angel. Most of her fins are healing but the anal fin has got even shorter. It's not good.








I went up to the tank with a tape measure to make sure the new one will fit in the space- and when I lifted my arms just above, Miss Beautiful freaked out, crashed into the corner. Hadn't seen that in a long time. I am starting to think she really was traumatized when young. And the tetras I got to help her feel calmer- I'm starting to think I've deluded myself. They're probably biting her fins, causing the damage. I should get rid of them and find her some other kind of companions. 

I wanted to have a 55 to give her more space- an extra foot to utilize horizontally, although not as much height- and also so that it's easier to work in. I'm tired of having to stand on a stool and use tools to reach into the back or very bottom of the tank. 

It will just be an entire day of work to tear this one all down and set the new one up. I'm both dreading it and excited about it at the same time.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I recently trimmed a bunch of stuff in here- anubias leaves with algae, some melting crypt pieces and cut back a bit of the long strappy val foliage. Moved around some buces, resituated the java ferns (they're doing better now tho I don't know why), happy to find my one remaining bit of crypt wendtii is still alive. Pleased to see the crypt balansae in front corner is growing well! But after a few days of looking at the tank I don't like the appearance- so I didn't take a new full tank shot, but also don't feel like putting in my hands to rearrange stuff again soon as it freaks out my angel. I do however like how the hornwort stems fill up the sides, a tower of green (ambient light pic)








Um, the female guppies from my window tank are in here now. I've already decided they have to go when my younger minnows are big enough to join the three adults in the 33L. I've been unable to give them away and there's really no place else to put them. Moved them early because I didn't like watching them pick at Laddie. I thought the angel would finish them off, but they're big enough she didn't really try. The tetras harass them, chasing and nipping. They hide most of the time down among the driftwood pieces. Maybe with something smaller to pester, the tetras will leave my angel alone? I kinda doubt it though.

I've been trying to learn what I can do better for Miss Beautiful besides more room or new tankmates. I bumped up the heater to 80° and sorted through all my fish food containers- about a third of them were expired and got composted. I've got three new containers I bought weeks ago but hadn't started using yet, and will go get another soon (the NLS pellets are one of Miss Beautiful's favorite). I hope a bit warmer temps and quality food can help improve her health. (Still has ragged fin edges and redness at the pectorals, otherwise looks great)


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My angelfish isn't at her best. Fins slowly growing back, but I _saw_ the black skirt tetras nipping at her yesterday! I sat in the room with the angel tank longer than usual (reading) and had time to really notice what was going on in there.








I don't want to put more tetras in there, increasing the group in hopes they'll leave Miss Beautiful alone. It already feels kinda crowded. So today I caught all the tetras and moved them into the 20H. Again, sigh. I really do like them, but I like my angelfish better- and I don't want to run a fifth tank just to keep them. Going to have to re-home once more. Unhappy about that.








They were hard to catch! No way I can net them with all the hiding spots under and around driftwood. My bottle fish trap is too small. I submerged a large plastic bag and dropped food halfway in. The guppies went in and out for hours, gorging themselves. The angelfish eyed it sideways and never approached. Tetras were wary but eventually one would go in, and then I'd net it out, wait for the rest to settle down and approach once more. Took half the day, going back and forth. I really hope my angel is okay now without them as dither fish- maybe the five female guppies can take that role. Have to find better tank companions perhaps. The last tetra of course got way more skittish and I had to lift out a lot of smaller plants on their anchors, block off part of the tank with piece of plexiglass, and deploy two nets. So stuff got rearranged a little. Miss Beautiful didn't freak out while I did all that work- I think she realized I was catching and removing the bothersome tetras.








Angelfish seems a lot more at ease now. Tetras are ok in that 20H only for a little while- it really isn't big enough- will probably get re-homed (disappointingly this is a total repeat for me).








Funny, my kuhlis also seem relieved the tetras are gone? I saw them wriggling and swimming up and down the plants later in the evening, like I haven't in a long time. Either that, or they were super excited to smell their favorite food in the tank- I used sinking hikari wafers as bait in the fish bag trap- and hadn't given them that in a while.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Miss Beautiful is definitely doing better. Doesn't shy as much, even when I'm doing work for a water change. Hangs out in all parts of the tank, not just in one corner. At ease when eating, not having the tetras dash in and out taking food from in front of her nose. Pelvic fin growing back nicely now. And I'm seeing the kuhlis more! It wasn't just the lure of favorite food- they are obviously more comfortable being out in the open now. I was able to see all four individuals- for a while hadn't been sure if they were all still here. Even Albert's still in there- five or six years old now, my oldest fish (and one of the smallest).

The vals have only melted a little- I pulled out two or three browned discarded leaf bits- but other plants in the tank are starting to look yellowish especially on older leaves. Probably competition for nutrients out of balance now, with the additional vals and fewer fish (since I moved out the tetras). So I pulled about half the hydroponic plant mass- removed a piece of heartleaf philodendron, and the largest stem of pothos that was growing in the back of the tank. No longer that wad of roots hanging down in one corner. The pothos stem was long enough to span a 6" pot, and now looks nice sitting by a curtained window.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Miss Beautiful's dorsal and anal fins have grown back- near complete, it looks to me. Although lacking color. 








I'm finding new joy in just sitting in front of this tank. Watching the kuhlis wriggle and slide all over the place (Tiger looks particularly fat, I wonder if that one is a female?) The female guppies- some of them quite fat now too, so I expect fry- which will quickly become feeders- again soon- have taken to hanging out in the open or skittering around just under the water surface now. Either they too had been harrassed by the tetras, or the angelfish has realized they're not worth chasing and ignores them now. 








She really seems to appreciate the tall val rubra, and the leopard vals are doing great so far too.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*It has not been a good week for my angelfish*

She's been getting startled again. At first midly- would just dart away into the corner, then once very badly. I don't know what caused it as I approached the tank not holding anything or moving suddenly (which often seems to trigger her fear). She bolted away into the corner, crashed into the wall behind the heater and was there head down absolutely still for a minute or so, stunned. I really thought she'd died this time. Then she jolted out of the corner- has scraped off some scales on her head, and one pectoral fin is injured- held clamped tight to her side. When she started moving it a bit hours later (very stiffly and only partly extended) I saw it's torn and there's a bloody streak. I feel so bad for her. I don't know why she keeps getting scared. Maybe too alone now, without the tetras. I don't know how to solve this. Maybe a different fish as dithers? 

I think I did figure out why she startles so much, though. From when she was very small, and the tank used to be down in the dark hallway. My husband would go through there to his office, often holding his silver laptop and one day he wondered if light reflecting off the laptop frightened the young angelfishes- maybe it looked like a much bigger fish to them. So he stood there in the dark hallway and tipped the laptop to bounce the light off it- and the baby angels bolted into the corner. After that he tried to be more careful and hold it differently so it didn't flash at them, but I don't know how long this was going on. He told me about it much later. My best guess is that Miss Beautiful was simply traumatized by that, and now I don't know if she will ever get over it.

She didn't want her picture taken (understandably)








Few days later:








Scrape on the head is already healing, and the pectoral fin is in use, although she seems to move it gingerly. Half got completely torn off- oh it must hurt. I feel so bad for her.

Today the red streak is gone. Hope the fin can grow back.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Full tank shot from across the room. Miss Beautiful is healing up- part of left pectoral is still missing but it seems to be slowly growing back. Giant val is starting to take up a lot of room! I still like it.


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

I have always liked the visual impact of the 45 gallon aquariums that are essentially extra tall 30gallon/38gallon aquariums. I don't enjoy maintaining them, but the look of them with beautiful tall laterally compressed cichlids like Festivums and Scalares is striking.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

You might be having problems because she's alone. Aren't angels a shoaling fish? Maybe if you had one other Angel in there with her, it might calm her down.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

@FischAutoTechGarten Thank you. However even after finally getting taller plants to grow so it looks much nicer, I am making plans to go ahead and move everything into a 55- because I want my angel to have more space...

@jellopuddinpop I did have another angel in here. They were fighting. i had to separate them or this one might have killed the other one. I'm hesitant to try adding another because she won't necessarily like any partner I pick out for her.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I bought an angle iron stand for my 55 and moved everything into it yesterday. 








It was an all-day project but much easier than past tank moves I've done. Experience is finally paying off I suppose. I leveled the stand and filled the tank on thursday, but it was off by 1/8" so in the morning I drained it to about 12 gallons and adjusted the shims. Now only off by 1/16" in one direction, which is within tolerance? First thing to move in were the bunches of hornwort. And a few guppies which are not very wary, so I kept scooping them up with the gallon pitcher!

Here's a few pics from the day's work. Planter basket of the giant vals (thought it was 'rubra', but now I'm informed that what I actually have is vallisneria americana)








Its leaves reach all the way across the four-foot tank








Some of my leopard vals have runners going out! (I clipped and replanted into gaps)








Crypt balansae next to the thicket of hornwort








Smallest stuff went in last- buces on bits of driftwood








All plants in the tank but no lighting yet so hard to see








I really thought the hardest part would be catching the fishes- but it wasn't. I partly filled a large plastic bag, laid it on side in the bottom of the 45 (which at that point only had enough water to just clear the tip of Miss Beautiful's dorsal fin) and just coaxed her into a corner. Bagged, momentarily in a bucket:








Floating to equalize temperature- she was eager to get out!








Upon release- not acting stressed at all. Seems to feel quite at home.








The kuhlis on the other hand, immediately hid under driftwood. They were easiest to catch when nothing was left in the 45 but some mulm. I just used two nets against the edges.

I did have some misgivings Miss Beautiful might startle from people appearing suddenly in the room around the corner that comes from the front door. But she hasn't. She startles sometimes but just moves easily away, no crashing into walls yet. I really think the extra foot of space is going to make a difference for her. I put all the hornwort stems on this short end to screen it for her








There she is- coming over to look at me- just left and behind the filter uplift tube.








My light from the 45 doesn't fit this tank- and I couldn't find the type I wanted at local store so I ordered one online. While I wait for it to arrive I have the LED over one half and a lamp by the other end just to keep the vals alive.

More pics coming soon-


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

More photos! The best I could do at a full tank shot right now- at an angle-








Looking down through the short end








The hornwort thicket








Looking down at the anubias on driftwood- can see the heater horizontal behind it








Java ferns. And behind them- I think that's the crypt retrospiralis








Buces in front of the giant val planter








Angel on the side that has the aquarium light








Miss Beautiful-


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## carseatdust (Dec 23, 2020)

I've enjoyed reading through the journal, your ups and downs. Great to see the angel enjoying her new potted plants!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My new light arrived:








Can see everything much brighter so that prompted some cleanup. Cut out lower leaves on some buces that had algae- now they look skimpy but maybe soon I will cut their tops and re-tied those down to multiply






















I moved a few things around- the java ferns are all together now on one end of the driftwood group








Anubias all got trimmed and their tops wedged into new places lower down on the wood. Lots of bare rhizomes with just roots between, I expect new leaves will sprout there too.








So the anubias don't look as nice from afar now- there's kind of a gap in top middle but I hope when they grow out some it will look better. Or maybe next week I will rearrange the wood pieces. Didn't want to do too much all at once.








The angelfish still acts skittish now and then, but she is _way_ calmer now. Even my family has noticed and remarked how happy and pretty she looks in here. My youngest said "wow, your tank looks like a painting!" My teen was charmed that the angelfish will come up to the glass to see him, and follow across the tank if he looks thru the short end. I think this move was a big plus.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Angelfish behind the screen of hornwort:


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

From February- I got a new light- It's definitely brighter, and also closer to the tank floor, and the plants started growing much faster.








Hornwort thicket on the short end became a dense wall now, I actually have to thin it out regularly now.








The robust vals _americana_ are growing wider leaves- and lovely to see the texture where the light shines through








My Leopard vals continue to do better than ever, too. Lots of new foliage- although some rather pale-








and baby vals are coming up on runners outside of the planter baskets!








Most of the trimmed anubias rhizomes have new leaves sprouting-








Downside to all this growth, is the lower buce leaves have spots of BBA again. I'll move them to dimmer areas of the tank.















I removed the pothos that was growing hydroponically on back of the tank. In case it's competing with the vals for nutrients. If they continue looking pale, I'll give root tabs.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

What kind of light did you get ? Also i'm guessing you have a female angel - you might try getting a male angel. If the only other fish in the tank are kuhli then breeding hostility should be fine since they won't chase the kuhli (and the kuhli are too fast anyway).


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

It's a Finnex LED. I forget the exact style- very simple one, just on/off switch that I have on a timer. Yes, my angelfish is female. Used to have a mate, they bred several times and I once got wigglers. Only other fishes in here are kuhlis. I thought the kuhlis were eating the angelfish eggs at night at first, but now realize probably the parents ate them when they were new at it . . . But the parents started fighting really awful- there were injuries and I had to separate them and ended up re-homing the male. Go back a few pages in this thread and you can see pics of the male I used to have, and their batches of eggs on a leaf! 

The female was really intent at raising young, but the male wouldn't help much. I would like to try and get another angel to partner with her, but am leery to try it again when there's a good chance they won't get along and then I have to re-home another angel . . . those two had grown up together but now she's several years old so I think it might be harder to get a new one and they actually end up liking each other.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

Awesome tank! I love it! I am jealous though. You have both a 33 long AND a 55!


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

So adding a second angel is always tricky and acceptance is not always clear. However you could try adding a calm dither fish. Naturally you would want something large enough that she won't eat it but also won't harass her. It does seem you do have some sort of dither with her (i missed the species) but other that could be considered include black neon tetra, rosy (or white fin rosy) tetra and lemon tetra. To be honest I have a couple of serpae in my angel tank and they leave the angel alones (i have 10 angels in a 120) however some people report serpae will nip their angels like your black phantom. In my case the tetra (i also have cardinals) are terrified of the angles and do their best to avoid them. I do suspect your angel is a female which mean she is not too large - also unless you want to deal with breeding hostilities (which in my tank is not too bad but i removed the more aggressive pairs) you don't want a male and she might very well reject a female friend.
-
If you do get a male then you want one that is fairly big (not nec. in size but in bulk) as she will 'test' him for suitability as a partner.



JJ09 said:


> @jellopuddinpop I did have another angel in here. They were fighting. i had to separate them or this one might have killed the other one. I'm hesitant to try adding another because she won't necessarily like any partner I pick out for her.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Blackheart said:


> Awesome tank! I love it! I am jealous though. You have both a 33 long AND a 55!


Thanks! The 55 was a long time in coming- I'd always wanted to give my angel more room, but hesitated for a long time to run a tank that large (it seems large to me!) The 33L was a total impulse buy. I saw it in a LFS- didn't even know that dimension existed before- and thought wow, that would be _great _for my paradise fish! So I got it on a spot. But I don't think I'll be buying any more tanks at all, haha. Four (though technically one isn't a tank, gallon+half unfiltered bowl) is enough to keep me busy!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

jake21 said:


> So adding a second angel is always tricky and acceptance is not always clear. However you could try adding a calm dither fish. Naturally you would want something large enough that she won't eat it but also won't harass her. It does seem you do have some sort of dither with her (i missed the species) but other that could be considered include black neon tetra, rosy (or white fin rosy) tetra and lemon tetra. To be honest I have a couple of serpae in my angel tank and they leave the angel alones (i have 10 angels in a 120) however some people report serpae will nip their angels like your black phantom. In my case the tetra (i also have cardinals) are terrified of the angles and do their best to avoid them. I do suspect your angel is a female which mean she is not too large - also unless you want to deal with breeding hostilities (which in my tank is not too bad but i removed the more aggressive pairs) you don't want a male and she might very well reject a female friend.
> -
> If you do get a male then you want one that is fairly big (not nec. in size but in bulk) as she will 'test' him for suitability as a partner.


Yes. My angelfish is female- I saw her laying the eggs when I had the male with her before. I had black skirt tetras with her before, and they were harassing her. Now her companions are kuhli loaches (not much of a dither fish) and a few guppies. She has calmed down a LOT since I moved her into the 55- I think the 45 felt cramped to her for some reason. Also the new location maybe helped, as I moved the tank across the room. If I add dither fish again (the guppies are getting old) I was thinking of platies or rams or acaras or apistos. No solid ideas on any of those, though. I'm content with what I've got for now. I think the tank has a parasite infestation- my angelfish gets very twitchy sometimes and had gone off her food. I've been treating her for 3 weeks with prazipro- at the end of last week she barely showed any symptoms so I think maybe I finally beat it? but I want to be sure before I consider adding any other fishes.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

jake21 said:


> So adding a second angel is always tricky and acceptance is not always clear. However you could try adding a calm dither fish. Naturally you would want something large enough that she won't eat it but also won't harass her. It does seem you do have some sort of dither with her (i missed the species) but other that could be considered include black neon tetra, rosy (or white fin rosy) tetra and lemon tetra. To be honest I have a couple of serpae in my angel tank and they leave the angel alones (i have 10 angels in a 120) however some people report serpae will nip their angels like your black phantom. In my case the tetra (i also have cardinals) are terrified of the angles and do their best to avoid them. I do suspect your angel is a female which mean she is not too large - also unless you want to deal with breeding hostilities (which in my tank is not too bad but i removed the more aggressive pairs) you don't want a male and she might very well reject a female friend.
> -
> If you do get a male then you want one that is fairly big (not nec. in size but in bulk) as she will 'test' him for suitability as a partner.


Gotta love the lemons!! Great little dither for angels.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

I also keep kuhli in my angel tank but what can i say. They are kuhli. Anyway all the fishes you listed could go with the angel but none of them are dithers. GBR will require raising the tank to a min of 82 (fine for the angel and kuhli but the guppies won't love it); though bolivian rams will work fine at a lower temp. there are many acaras and apistos some quite friendly and gentle and others quite aggressive so take that into consideration.



JJ09 said:


> Yes. My angelfish is female- I saw her laying the eggs when I had the male with her before. I had black skirt tetras with her before, and they were harassing her. Now her companions are kuhli loaches (not much of a dither fish) and a few guppies. She has calmed down a LOT since I moved her into the 55- I think the 45 felt cramped to her for some reason. Also the new location maybe helped, as I moved the tank across the room. If I add dither fish again (the guppies are getting old) I was thinking of platies or rams or acaras or apistos. No solid ideas on any of those, though. I'm content with what I've got for now. I think the tank has a parasite infestation- my angelfish gets very twitchy sometimes and had gone off her food. I've been treating her for 3 weeks with prazipro- at the end of last week she barely showed any symptoms so I think maybe I finally beat it? but I want to be sure before I consider adding any other fishes.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Updates-* from 4/27/21*-
Past few weeks I was treating my angelfish for suspected external parasites.








She gets unsettled when the water is so low-








I'd noticed for a while that she would get twitchy, or jerk and dart across the tank. Then this behavior- she'd hold herself still in the middle of the water column, head pointed up, and a guppy would _pick_ at her sides, until she jerked and swam off. I saw this with my paradise fish before when it was unwell- I thought the guppy was picking at fungus on its side but now I think it was cleaning off parasites? I was still unsure though but then three weeks ago Miss Beautiful started to go off her food. Would take bites and spit them out, or not show any interest at all.

First round I did a normal water change (being rather short on time that day) and dosed with Prazipro. Angelfish quit being as twitchy and started eating again in the middle of that week. Five days later I did a large water change and dosed again. Seven days after that saw her acting twitchy again so repeated the large water change and Prazipro. By large I mean changing out almost thirty gallons instead of the usual thirteen or fourteen. I brought my two and three-gallon watering cans into the room and filled them straight from the tank as part of that:








I used my acrylic tube like a long straw, with finger on one end, to spot-clean in crevices and under/behind the hornwort stems, where it's difficult to get with the regular siphon. And did extra rinse of the filter sponges (alternating weeks). Plus I've been feeding the fishes garlic-soaked micro pellets once or twice a week- but Miss Beautiful doesn't like and spits them out. The guppies and kuhli loaches eat 'em up, however (and_ they've_ shown no signs of illness).

Would really like to get rid of this issue, hasn't my angelfish been through enough. I'd also really like to get a new paradise fish or betta, but all the small items I'd use for a quarantine tank are in the back of _this _tank, so pulling that while it's infected with parasites not a good idea.

*4/30/21-*
Got some new plants for my yard. Took a fewclippings of the creeping jenny and put in a jar of tank water, see if they convert and root can plant some in the aquariums.









* 5/2/21*-
Hornwort is growing like crazy, and forming a very nice security wall for my angelfish








Crypt balansae next to it is looking great








Upper leaves on the buces remain clear of algae so far








Java ferns look better too








Crypt retrospiralis also grown- and quite curvy!








My giant vals _americana_ have been unhappy- lots of leaves turning yellow, then brown, then eaten by the snails. I think from the change I made to the light. I've been watching for new leaves- yes there are some- and two new shoots on runners! which I clipped and replanted into the end of the basket, where there's a bare spot.








Leopard vals also continue to do well- much better than jungle val ever did for me- and the angelfish seems to appreciate them 









*5/4/21*-
Rearranged things slightly- put java ferns up on top of the large driftwood pieces,








and tied anubias on the smaller pieces down on the tank floor-
















Brought in here more bits of bolbitis fern- they already have new tiny fronds unfurling- 








and of course the biggest change is all these twisty vallisneria I got- Miss Beautiful seems to like the addition of a _lot _more vertical plants!








I pulled out some discontented crypts and planted their space fully with the new vals. In another spot I simply sunk the vals down between two larger driftwood pieces, their roots are still clinging to some substrate from prior tank, so they stay in place without actually being planted. While I put together another mesh planter box.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I feel it's finally reached a balance, with the new(ish) light. Last week I cleaned out lots of dead foliage from the giant vals _americana_, and trimmed browned tips off the twisty vals. Love seeing the cell structure in the big vals, but sad the two I clipped off runners and replanted, died. Next time I will just _bend_ the runner into the place I want it. 








Angelfish remains calm- no more startling, running into walls, twitching. I think I've actually got rid of the parasite this time. 








Hornworts got a trim- I'm still pretty happy with this system, of keeping them pegged down on ceramic rings. I don't mind the task of refastening a few each week on maintenance day. 








Trying not to be excited about this, because what if it doesn't last- but my apnogeton capuronii seems to be finally growing again! There's a leaf visible in the middle. I've been pulling baby leopard vals out of the aponogeton's planter basket when they show up on runners, to avoid it having competition. 








Seems it was a good move to swap positions with the java ferns and anubias- all the patches of java ferns have new little fiddleheads now 
















More new shoots on the anubias rhizomes, too (I didn't move them all). 








Kind of an overhead shot- from high angle outside the tank- of the driftwood side with java ferns, and twisty vals behind- 








the other driftwood chunk- mostly with anubias- and more vals. Still have this bunch of them (on the left) just weighed down in a gap. Every water change, whatever bits of substrate my siphon picks up off the tank floor, I drop back into this thicket. So far (weeks now) the vals are staying in place, and staying green. 








Miss Beautiful among the plants- 
















I took this picture to highlight the lovely crypt balansae, but she got in the shot, too. 








Now I just need to get a good current fulltank shot to show. I sit and stare at it sometimes and can't believe I have this tank. I'm really itching to get a second angelfish again, but dreading the likelihood of failure . . .


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

It's been a long time, but I finally went to the good LFS 40 min away. Didn't find a paradise fish for my 33L, which was my first choice, but brought these little guys home.








Two festivums and one little severum cichlid. To live with my angelfish.








More pics soon!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

So . . . day before yesterday I went to the LFS 40 min away- much better place to buy fishes than the local chain stores.

It felt like an _event_, because of covid I hadn't gone there in a long time. Disappointed no paradise fishes for my 33L, not even any striped kuhli loaches. But this pair of young festivum caught my eye, every time I walked by their tank. This species has caught my eye before (previous visits, other years). I asked some questions in the shop- they can make very good tankmates for angelfish, are not likely to eat or destroy plants, live for a decade... Well, I went ahead and bought 'em. And one green stripe severum. Which was maybe a mistake- I'm now having buyer's remorse about the severum:








It's just not as attractive a fish to me, whereas the festivum, I can't stop looking at these guys. They are so inquisitive, they have such a cool way of moving- a very smooth glide- and they almost immediately started exploring the tank. Cautious, but not terribly shy. I'm very taken with them already. These pics are from the first night when I released them in the tank with low light- I thought they would hide right away but nope. This is the larger one
















The smaller festivum shows more spots, I think when it's nervous-








It also looks a tad bloated, and was holding the tail fin clamped sometimes, and I saw white fluffy segments of feces in its bag from the store- while saw the larger festivum pooping normal brown ones. So I think the smaller one has parasites, dang. I did a very large water change and dosed the tank with Prazipro (I'd rather use General Cure but I can't find any- every place is out of stock, local stores _and _online).

I had my 20 gal QT filled to about 14 or 15 gallons at first, but only refilled to 10 with the wc, so I could dose the medication accurately. Here's the smaller festivum in QT, on the left:








and the larger one in the same spot:








The larger festivum is obviously dominant right now- and both of them constantly displace the severum, or nip at it- they don't go so far as to keep it trapped in a corner, but it_ is_ hiding more, staying out of the way. So that's one reason I didn't get as many pics of the severum, but also because the two festivums are just so much more engaging.








They're not at all camera shy.








I have a fish again that looks straight at me!








Where they will live- here in the 55 gal with Miss Beautiful. I can't wait to see them in there.








Somehow I can't picture the severum with them, though. The more I look up differences between the two cichlids, the more I want to just keep the two festivum and take the severum back to the store... especially as together with the angelfish, I think they will ultimately get too big for this tank. And no, I don't want to get a 100 or 120 gal, as the shop guy readily suggested.

I'm already mulling over names in my head for the festivums-








Whereas I haven't once though of a name for the severum, hm. I even like this photo I got of the larger festivum all blurred. Name ideas: Bandit, Rascal, Sneaker, Foxface . . . 








But I will wait to see their personalities more clearly, as they grow. And cross my fingers they're okay in the planted tank. Already I've seen them mouthing and tugging at the hornwort and subwassertang bits in the QT. They're eating the snails. Which is okay- but I've read conflicting reports from other fishkeepers now- some have kept festivum that left all plants alone, others say they ate nearly everything green- vals, swords, crypts . . . my tank might get mowed down to just the anubias that would be upsetting. Also varying reports on how aggressive they can be. I don't know if the variation is just individual personality or how they were raised or what. I'm game to try keeping them anyway, I like them that much- but might have to change out what kind of plants I grow. . . or turn it back into a mainly driftwood scape...

But that green stripe severum, just the more I think about it and the more I read about them, he's gotta get returned. Sorry fishy. Better now than later when he's too big and gets destructive and I can't find a home for a 'monster fish'.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Can't help myself, don't know if you're a Seinfeld fan or not but if I ever had 2 festivums they would _have to be_ named "festivus" and "restuvus"... I know- incredibly stupid, but that's been kicking around in my head for over a decade lol.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Omg, yes. I mean, not a Seinfeld fan really, but I know the episode and the first thing I said when I told my husband the species name- he looked puzzled- "a _what_?" and I said "a festivus! you know, _festivus_ like _the rest of us_ haha". I don't think he really found it funny, though.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

I'm not a huge fan either but festivus is one of those things lol my hubby got a laugh out of it, he is a big Seinfeld fan. Beautiful fish, btw.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Plinkploop said:


> Beautiful fish, btw.


Thank you. I'm pretty excited about them.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

I had interest in them when I had my large cichlid set ups but I never pulled the trigger, could never come up with a pair so I gave up lol. Thank you for sharing yours!!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I don't have a lid for my 20H QT tank. I have a makeshift array of plastic panels as cover, but it's awkward and untidy. I didn't care before because I seldom use this tank, but twice in one day now I accidentally knocked one of the panels _into_ the tank- of course that terrified the new fishes- then they're hiding when I come to open the top, instead of happily anticipating food from me. I couldn't find a lid to buy. The size that would fit my tank is out of stock at all the local stores, _and_ online. I even looked on places like craigslist, for a random glass lid, but no luck. Sigh. 

So I made a temporary lid of two cardboard panels, hinged and completely covered both sides with overlapping packing tape to make it last longer against the condensation. We have lots of cardboard scrap around, and plenty of packing tape- so I can remake this several times over if I need to, while the QT is in use. Two days now, and so far the cardboard is holding up fine- not bowing as much as I expected, either. It sure looks silly, but already the fishes are getting calmer, and now zip out to see what's on offer when I drop food in.

They are very eager to eat flake, have also taken garlic-soaked betta pellets, NLS pellets and bug bites. I read that festivums need a lot of greens especially when young, so have been giving them that as midday feeding- this will work well when they go into the angelfish tank too, I think. Miss Beautiful doesn't care for greens anymore (except spirulina) she spits it out leaving most for the guppies and kuhli loaches. As the festivums are little, I'll want to give them multiple feedings per day, but the angelfish being grown up doesn't need that. So the new fishes will get their extra greens without Miss Beautiful pigging out on extra food.

So far they've eaten dandelion leaf, spirulina and peas. They didn't care much for young beet leaves, ate it but rather reluctantly and left some behind. I've also got on hand to offer them carrot, leaf lettuce, collards, kale, broccoli leaves, pea shoots, turnip greens, and I wonder how they would like any of my garden herbs. I read of someone giving their herbivorous fishes dill and parsley . . . Maybe they will like purple dead nettle! Silly how fun such a simple thing is- dropping a different fresh green in the tank each day to see what they like. I have been blanching it- put a bit of leaf or whatever in a tiny espresso cup, pour hot water over and just let sit for a few minutes.

The little severum eats it all, too.

I spot-cleaned the tank bottom yesterday, to remove some mulm and uneaten food. I've seen both festivums dropping normal-colored poop, but there's still some fragments of white feces in the tank- so either I missed some cleaning, or the severum also and still has parasites. On friday I'll do a proper tank cleaning with a water change, then wait twenty-four hours to see if anyone drops white feces again, to decide if the tank needs a repeat dose of Prazipro. Smaller festivum rarely has pinched caudal fin, now- so it's obviously feeling better. It's bolder than the larger fish- hides less and comes out first- even though once the bigger one is out in the open it pushes the smaller one around!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

All is still well in the QT. My little cichlids have now eaten carrot and cabbage worms as well as regular fish food. They really love flake best, though. Or just dash to eat it because it's so familiar, perhaps. 

Spot-cleaned the tank floor again today. Somebody in there is still dropping white feces, severum is the one I _haven't _seen actively pooping yet so I guess that's who. I've definitely named the larger festivum Foxface, but keep switching between calling the little one (in my head) Bandit or Rascal. My kid thinks it should be Rascal because it's so quick to zip over and jab at the severum's face, even though the severum is slightly bigger!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yesterday: did a large wc and re-dosed the QT with Prazipro. Everyone looks great. Not keen on broccoli leaves, it turns out. They do like carrot, though. I tried clipping a leaf and letting it hang in the water, thinking they'd enjoy pulling it apart. They went all over the tank looking for food they could smell, but never nipped at the leaf. When I unhooked the clip and snipped the leaf into little bits, _then_ they darted over to taste it. Although it makes feeding them fresh greenery a bit of a chore, I'm actually glad. If they think complete leaves are inedible or prickly like the fake plants and hornwort in their QT, maybe they won't even sample my live plants in the 55.








The good: no more sign of white poop. The not-so-good: I was _tired_. Made a few little mistakes. Refilling after the wc, new water was too warm. It bumped the temp up four degrees, yikes. I added some cool water, that just brought it down one degree. So I left the heater unplugged for a while. Checked a few times during the next few hours, was going to plug it back in when it started to dropped just below eighty (my target). Except then forgot, until I woke up in the middle of the night and remembered, and ran downstairs around 4am to plug in the heater. Tank was at 74 or 75°. 

This morning it's back to normal. Did a spot-clean again and found some pieces of broccoli leaf I'd missed yesterday. And the severum now has a faint white smudge on caudal fin, like a fungus patch is starting. Either the temperature drop or the leftover food fouling the water caused it. Damn. Going to be more meticulous now to keep the tank clean, hope this clears up quickly.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

The little striped severum is doing better- what I thought was a smudge of fungus on its tail








now looks like it was just a small injury after all. I took him out of his QT bin to take some photos this morning- sent them to a guy who wants to buy him from me but I was making sure the fish would heal first.








I've been doing small partial water changes (half to one gallon) on his bin every morning and evening. He's been eating but very skittish and shy- spending most of the time hidden behind plants in the back. Until today- for the first time I saw him cruise up and down the bin front eagerly when I first came in the room. After getting caught (gently, with the box not a net) for photos he hid again for a while, but was then out and about again. So I think he's either feeling more comfortable in his surroundings, or better from his injury (or both!)

The festivums in half-filled 20H QT continue to delight me. So far they've eaten all the prepared foods I have- but are _especially_ crazy for flake. Turns out these fish were wild caught- I'd much rather they were tank-raised, but the fish store guy demonstrated they'd adjusted fine and were eating by giving their tank flake while I watched. I bet that's why they had parasites (coming from the wild). Also wonder if flake is the first (or only?) food they got in captivity, did they just go nuts over it because the taste was so different from their natural fare? or are they so desperate to grab it because they had so much competition in the store tank (which was pretty crowded with another species and just these two festivum)? They come out quick enough for other foods I offer, but when it's flake they _zoom_ to the surface and snatch one bite after another frantically. Especially the little one!

I'm noticing differences in personality. The bigger one, Foxface, always hangs back. It has claimed a spot at the rear of the tank, under the heater and above where these plastic tubes I dropped in there lie (short leftover pieces of uplift tubes I had put in the 55 thinking the kuhlis might use them as hiding places).








(Fish pinched its tail shut in alarm when I sneezed!)








I don't know if Foxface is more shy, or just smarter- waiting to see if his smaller companion gets into trouble for being so forward.








Rascal is far more often out in the open at the front of the tank- whether he's braver, or just anxious to pick up food opportunities by being out front, before Foxface chases it away, I don't know. It sometimes 'wags' its head back and forth at me now, begging for food! They've both eaten almost all I have to offer now- and from the fresh foods they seem to like best dandelion leaf, peas and cabbage worms. They will eat carrot and collard greens too, but _do not_ like broccoli or purple dead nettle.








Rascal has his own spot too- under the fake bridge.
















Except that Foxface often chases him out of it. He's gotten a few minor tears from that, in dorsal and pectoral fins.








I think just one more week of QT (to assure myself parasites don't reappear) then these guys will go into the 55 with my angelfish. I'm curious to see if they'll each claim a particular hiding spot in there, too.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Sometimes if you wait long enough, things just come your way. I have _five_ new angelfish. 








Friend in my local fish club connected me with somebody who's moving and had to re-home all his angelfish. He had three generations in some very large planted tanks- it was so beautiful. Most were veils; I brought home five of the standard fin types. Even though I'm not particularly fond of golden angels or koi, I saw how handsome his adult golden angelfish were, was suddenly taken with them, and gladly brought the younger ones home. With promises that if any pair off and I have to remove the males, I''ll find them good homes in turn. Which is maybe already happening- but I'm getting ahead of myself. It was a long ride home for them in a bucket and then for the first time I did drip acclimation- as they came from a walstad style tank with RO water-








I let the drip run for half an hour while keeping a close eye on them, then siphoned some waste out of the bottom of their bucket and ran the drip another half hour while I caught Miss Beautiful, put her in a separate bucket, and rearranged all the tank decor.








I turned my A/C down so the room warmed up to 75° and hoped that would slow heat loss from the buckets enough, but it didn't- and I probably took too long getting the tank ready. I think they got a bit chilled in there- several of the new angels have cloudy eye now, and Miss Beautiful looked rough when I put her back in the tank- fin edges dark, a tear in her caudal, cloudy eye, redness at the pectoral joints. I could have cried. Should have put a small heater in her bucket, and been more gentle with the handling. Well, I tried. Doing extra wc this week to help them.








Hoping to alleviate aggression, I netted the new angels into the tank first, then released Miss Beautiful.








She hasn't bothered them at all. It's actually the other way around! (I switched the light off after checking to make sure none were in shock from the introduction to different water conditions- took these photos first though.)








Most of them stayed in one corner for a while, then started venturing around the tank- and I watched them for a long time in the dimness. 








Two of the koi angels started acting like a pair- swimming alongside each other, with turns of the head to gently mouth the other. One (probably female) mouthing plants as if testing or cleaning them, the other (probably male) threatening everybody else- even asserting himself against Miss Beautiful though she's larger. These new ones are two years old. Their gold color looks so attractive among the green vallisneria- more than I expected it to.
















Of course, I still have my two festivums in the QT tank! 








So here's my plan for the rest of the week: test the tank for ammonia spikes, do small partial wc daily as needed. Finish treating the festivums in QT with General Cure (just for my peace of mind, they've been in there long enough and I feel pretty sure they're fine). When they're clear, move the festivums into the 55, reloacate the QT so I can fill it to the total 20g, and move out any confirmed male angelfish (if the presumed pair spawns by then I think I'll know) . . .








The prior owner also gave me two baby sword plants. I promptly (but gently) uprooted all the corkscrew vals from a planter basket, tucked them in a gap between hardscape, and planted the swords. Think I'm going to gradually take out all the corkscrew vals somebody gave me (just don't like them as much), and hope to get more crypts, aponogetons or narrow-leaved swords in here instead. Really miss the huge aponogeton crispus I used to have in my 38. 








(BTW: the little severum went to a new home a week ago)


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Those angels need LOTS of food and LOTS of fresh water changes. See if you can get them to eat beefheart. It is the most nutritive, most growth inducing food. Pellets also pack alot of punch. Lots of food, water changes. Multiple feedings a day will be good for those angels.

I found a trick that makes water changes really easy, better than a python. Just buy a 200-300 gph pump ($15) and a long clear nylon tube. Run the waste water to a sink or out a door/window. If you position the pump at half height in the tank, it will be a 50% water change, etc.

To fill the tank you can do the opposite. If you don't have a reservoir, you could fill a bathtub and go in reverse. Dont have to fiddle with a hose connection. This makes it easy to do large, frequent water changes.

If your water is absolutely soft and has no minerals, supplement with Epsom salt and CaSO4. Good for plants and fish.

I wouldn't worry too much about keeping it at 80*. My tanks are at 75-76 and the angels are thriving. I change water from a reservoir at room temperature, so a 50% water change will sometime bring it down to the low 70s. A temp in the mid 70s is easier to maintain.

Good luck. I think the key to making those angels work as a group is lots of food, lots of water changes. Food insecurity will make them fight. Count yourself lucky, a shoal of gold angels in a planted tank will look amazing.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks for the pointers, 


ChrisX said:


> Those angels need LOTS of food and LOTS of fresh water changes. ...


Do you think they look small for their age.. ? Is that why you said LOTS of food.
I don't have a reservoir or a bathtub handy- the closest water source is kitchen sink across a whole room. It's buckets for me, ha. My water's pretty hard, ph is usually somewhere between 7.8 and 8.0- it fluctuates through the year (I looked at a report of our local water source online once). The person I got them from did keep them at slightly lower temp- 77 or 78 I think- so yeah I was thinking of lowering back to that. 

Their eyes_ all_ look clear this morning, and I ran a water test- no ammonia, but I did a partial wc anyway. Fed them flake and I was surprised how casually they went about eating- deliberate but rather slow at getting it. My festivums will eat everything before these angels even notice there's food in there at that rate! They did spend a long time afterwards looking at the surface carefully for more food, even though I dropped in flake three times. And Miss Beautiful followed their example and ate some, which I haven't seen her do in quite a while. The same two koi still appear to be paired off, but now they are defending the opposite corner than where they were yesterday, and the female seems interested in cleaning the airlift tube.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> Thanks for the pointers,
> 
> Do you think they look small for their age.. ? Is that why you said LOTS of food.
> I don't have a reservoir or a bathtub handy- the closest water source is kitchen sink across a whole room. It's buckets for me, ha. My water's pretty hard, ph is usually somewhere between 7.8 and 8.0- it fluctuates through the year (I looked at a report of our local water source online once). The person I got them from did keep them at slightly lower temp- 77 or 78 I think- so yeah I was thinking of lowering back to that.
> ...


They do look like they could still put on some size and you don't want the window to close.

Strongly recommend a $15 pump and a long tube that can reach from your tank to your sink (and vice versa.) The waste generation in your tank just multiplied x6. Or at least a pump/tube that can reach out your window, and a hose/python that can run from your sink. AIM for at LEAST a 50% water change every week. (Not several small one, one big one)

High pH is not hard water. My tap is pH 8ish but has almost no minerals.

Get a KH and GH test kit. There should be at least a low level of Ca and Mg in the water. Supplement with CaSO4 and Epsom Salt, both of which are cheap. You might be ok, but until youve tested you won't know.

If those angels can be kept happy and healthy, you have the potential for an amazing display. Angels are usually aggressive against other angels they weren't raised with. With enough hiding spaces /plant density, you may very well be able to keep them all together.

Good luck.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> They do look like they could still put on some size and you don't want the window to close....


Ah, yes- I do have Gh and Kh test kit and have used it twice before- I don't remember the numbers but it was on the high end (and I do get all those annoying crusty hard water deposits on surfaces). 

I usually do a 25% to 30% wc every week, not hard to bump that up to 50%. Never was interested in using a python or running hose to the sink because I like to put the wastewater on my flower beds outside. 

It seems having two pair off got all the others 'in the mood' with breeding tubes extended and though it's very small on some of them, I can see it clearly. I've got three males and two females, among the newcomers. Honestly I'm not disappointed to only keep the two females- but I'm in no rush to re-home the males immediately, either. They just got here!

I just fed them for the second time today, NLS pellets. They ate that more eagerly than the flake. My older angel, Miss Beautiful, continues to be peaceful with them. She moves away quickly when the smaller male chases them about, and only mildly threatens one of the golden youngsters herself in turn.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I thought about this a lot the other night, and first thing when I woke up in the morning, and just decided to do it. After all, my original intention was to just have two or three female angels in the 55, and the festivum cichlids. Why postpone it? My festivums have been in QT plenty long enough, they look perfectly healthy aside from a tiny growth on Foxface's chin (looks just like fish version of a skin tag). That is smaller after a salt dip and I did want to give Foxface one more treatment, see if it makes the thing drop off completely. Dithered in my head for a while- is it more stressful to put him back in the QT tank after, and catch him_ twice_, or to put him straight from salt bath recovery into a floating bag in the 55, acclimate for release? I decided on the latter. . . 








So he went in a bucket again. When his salt bath was done, I had the smaller festivum ready caught and floating in my largest fish bag, in the 55. Netted Foxface into there, acclimated them both. It makes me so happy to see them in there. They look completely at ease, and follow each other around the tank.
















Festivums and angelfishes don't bother each other at all- 
















Meanwhile I caught the two koi male angelfish and put them in the spare 20H








The golden one was still in the 55. I didn't want to overload the cycle in the 20H too quickly so thought I'd move him the next day. But things moved quickly- they were in there less than 24 hours!








Next morning, which was yesterday- the koi female that I've named Shirley had been very energetically cleaning the airlift tube, and the male was making repeated passes- practice? but I didn't see any eggs yet. When I moved the two male koi out, the female promptly took up with the golden male. This happened in short order:
















I don't know why it's a thrill to see them lay eggs, when I know I don't want to raise baby fish! but it was.








Didn't last too long, though.








The other fish promptly swarmed the corner, ate all the eggs. The young parents tried but couldn't keep them away.








Then there was lots of squabbling in the corner, then Miss Beautiful drove everyone out and took over the spot. She's in breeding mood herself- maybe she was hoping another male would show up and she'd get to spawn too. The koi and gold pair moved to the other end of the tank and Shirley started cleaning _that _airlift tube. I disappointed her. I caught the gold male and moved him into the QT with his brothers. Earlier than I'd planned, but already found somebody to adopt them- another member of the local fish club.

So here's how my tank looks now (less one golden fish):








Later in the evening, Miss Beautiful gave up staking out her corner but chased the golden sisters around a lot- establishing herself as dominant. This morning all is calm again. My husband even remarked on it and I said "well, they don't really have anything to fight over anymore"- no mates or eggs. He asked if they might find that frustrating- probably, I suppose. I wonder if some of the females will eventually lay eggs anyway, Miss Beautiful never did on her own but I've heard of it happening with female angelfish companions. . . 

I don't miss the golden boys at all, btw. I felt better once they were out of the tank and things calmed down, and glad to know they've gone to another home. I was ready and willing to house them for weeks until I placed them, kinda surprised it was less than a day!


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Lol it least you know your girls are ready to spawn and you weren't stuck with more without being fully committed. Congrats on getting to witness the silliness and thanks for the pics of it!!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yep! I've named the two new ones Shirley and Precious, btw. All three angels- those two plus Miss Beautiful- have their breeding tubes showing. It's barely noticeable on Precious, who is a tad smaller than Shirley the koi, but I can see it if I look real close. She didn't plump up like Shirley did either.

Funny, this morning when I fed them all flake, the two young angels were eating rather slow again- so casually approaching, eyeing the food, carefully taking one bite then pause before another. Then the festivums noticed and little Rascal was zipping about gobbling flake as fast as he could. When the gold sisters saw that, they started eating a little quicker!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

LOTS of pictures. So- once again I was too hasty- should have had all the new angels in quarantine from the start. The guy I adopted them from said he hadn't introduced _any_ new fish or plants to his tank for over two years, and they looked perfectly healthy there- so I rashly thought I could just put them straight in here. Now some of them have fungus. Actually looking back, the koi one had a spot on her lip from the day I brought her home. Maybe it started with the stress of the move, I don't know. Here's what happened last few days.

I had heater problems. My heater was not keeping the tank warm, it had dropped from 79/80 to 74/75. So I put in a second, smaller one of my spare heaters, to boost the temp while I went to get a new one. New one didn't seem to be turning on (I think now, that it just actually took twenty-four hours to reach the temperature I'd first set it at). Aggravated, I unplugged it and kept the old one and the spare running all that night, because I was afraid the temp would get too low. It looked pretty silly having three heaters in there.








Next day, the old one had bubbles coming out of it. It had actually split open at the seam. So a goner. Good news is that I tried the new heater again, saw the indicator light come on this time, and was able to adjust it. Bad news is that some of the fish got white on their mouths. On festivum Foxface, it was the entire upper lip. On Shirley, a spot in the middle:








I did a 30% wc. Everyone acts fine. Tank was relatively peaceful, but then at night when I had the 'moonlight' on, Miss Beautiful chased Shirley relentlessly, all over the tank. Next morning, festivum's lip looks better- just a spot in the middle-








Shirley still had the white lip, plus a white patch on one pectoral fin.
















Even though I took this pic trying to assess her condition, I happen to really like how it shows the eyes-








The gold angel, Precious, also had a few small white marks on tail fin and a tear.








So the next day the spot on Foxface's lip is even smaller-
















And then this morning he seems completely well, I can _barely_ make out the smallest white mark on his upper lip















The mark on Shirley's pectoral fin is smaller, but the white on her lip still worries me















I've done 30% wc each day since this started, and rinsed half of the filter media today. Looked through my fish cabinet, wondering if I should put her in QT, or treat the whole tank with something since some of the other fish had issues, or just continue what I'm doing since there _has_ been improvement?

I've got plenty of aquarium salt, I had Furan-2 but it was expired (2017) so I threw it out. I have Kanaplex, API Fungus Cure and Erythromycin, but not enough of any of them to dose the 55. (And beside the point now, as they all seem to be pooping normal, but I never was able to find General Cure). Going to the better LFS today that's a 40min drive away, see what meds they have, if I can get more of anything enough for treatment.

Meanwhile, my festivums are very happy in here and have eaten all the small snails. So now I have more dead leaves to clean up myself (not a big deal) but also more algae growing on the glass (annoying). I think I'll either drop more malaysian trumpet snails in here- they hide at night so more might survive- or get one of those magnet algae cleaner things for the front glass.








Miss Beautiful's tail is starting to grow back and she looks good otherwise-








In fact this morning I found her laying eggs on the uplift tube















She hasn't done so in a _long _time (since I took her mate away). It's probably the extra feedings, and richer food, that's prompted her to. Hard to give the younger angels three feedings a day without Miss Beautiful getting extra too. I've found that half a cube of frozen food is too much- they all get plump bellies and there's still bits floating around the tank (kuhlis sure are feasting!) That's even when I give the tiniest bits in strained slurry to the guppies and minnows in my other tanks. I'm going to thaw just a third or quarter of a cube next time.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I wasn't able to find Furan-2 or General Cure at the LFS. The employee told me those medications have been discontinued- as in, the manufacturer isn't supplying them anymore? I got Kanaplex and Erythromycin. Decided to try using the Erythromycin, even though I know it's effective against fewer fish diseases, because of the redness. Miss Beautiful has for so very long shown this redness at her pectoral fin joints, and sometimes on the edges of the body too, under the skin. Like an inflammation. I treated her before with Kanaplex twice, which didn't clear it up. So I'm going to try the Erythromycin. Also because one of the younger angels is starting to show red streaks, too. 

Good news is Shirley's lip does look better this morning- the spot looks smaller to me-









but she has a second pale patch on her tail fin, now. Probably from getting attacked by her sibling. She's been staying low in a corner-








The gold angel has been very diligent at driving all the other fish here- even the two festivums keep to the far corner now. Precious planes her body horizontal to zoom across the tank and strike at them, one time so virgorously she flipped upside down, which was funny. I'm surprised at how seriously she takes her role as protector- still pretty sure she's female? you can see the breeding tube in this photo. 








Here the redness visible on edge of body at base of dorsal fin, and a bit at edge of caudal peduncle, too. It's not much yet, but this is how Miss Beautiful's symptoms started . . .








Yesterday I was surprised at their behavior. The eggs are on the top of the airlift tube, I had to remove that from the filter base to rinse the sponge. I though the angelfish would either attack me, or flee and then eat the eggs after the disturbance. They did neither. When the water level dropped below the eggs, they just stared upward at the spot, fixedly. When I took apart the filter, Miss Beautiful nipped me once, but not very hard, and then they backed off and watched. When I put it all back together, they started tending the eggs again right away- most are gone now, of course, but they remain very intent about it.








If I'm not mistaken, and Precious_ is_ female, I wonder if they'll remain a "pair", and if next time they'll switch roles? 
















But I keep dreading I've made a mistake with the treatment. I don't know, of course, if Shirley started improving because I added the medication, or because of the water changes and filter cleaning I've done. I also replaced the air stone in one sponge filter, and flow is immediately better on that side. The other filter needs a new air stone too, but now I don't want to put my hands in the tank until the Erythromycin is cleared out. 

Following what it says on the box, it's day 1: wc and dose medication, day 2: dose medication, day 3: wc and re-dose medication, day 4: dose medication, day 5: wc to finish up. It's the days without water changes that I worry about, because I've read this medicine can also impact the bio-filter, killing off some of the beneficial bacteria. Well, there's an extra sponge in my guppy tank and two in the QT that I could put in here to re-colonize beneficial bacteria after, but that might cause more problems, if I bring pathogens back into the tank (if that male guppy had lymphocystis, and whatever the new fish in QT might have)?

Another thing I did which was maybe mistake, brought a new plant home. Aponogeton bolivianus (or _boivinianus_? I've seen it spelled both ways and don't know if that's two different plants names or not). I did rinse it a lot, and acclimated it- which personally I think prevents some of the leaf melt with new plants








and then realized I don't have space for it, will need it's own planter basket. I have an empty one, but need to prep the safe-t-sorb substrate. So for now I've dropped it in a corner. The few days it will take to soak the safe-t-sorb in ferts and baking soda, will also give time to finish up the medication treatment in here, and then I'll plant it. A few days sitting bare root won't hurt it, I hope.








Encouraged that my aponogeton capuronii is sprouting a few new leaves! I think the slightly lower temps will be better for the apnoogetons, as long as it's not stressful for my angelfish . . .









Sorry for the overload of pics! I do enjoy taking photos- and my husband says I'm a bit "fish obsessed" lately, ha.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

My understanding is the FDA has er notified various companies that these drugs were not approved for animal usage....

btw Aponogeton bolivianus is one of my favorites. I have several. They haven't hibernated in 2+ years but in a low tech tank they are not tiny mine are around 16 inch tall and 8 inches wide.



JJ09 said:


> I wasn't able to find Furan-2 or General Cure at the LFS. The employee told me those medications have been discontinued- as in, the manufacturer isn't supplying them anymore?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

jake21 said:


> My understanding is the FDA has er notified various companies that these drugs were not approved for animal usage....
> 
> btw Aponogeton bolivianus is one of my favorites. I have several. They haven't hibernated in 2+ years but in a low tech tank they are not tiny mine are around 16 inch tall and 8 inches wide.


I thought it was something like that. Well, I hope what I got is a good alternative. Or I will go back to doing wc every day. Just did the second dose, all fishes are alive- kuhlis look a bit pale, gold angel has gotten white patch on each pectoral, which she didn't have before. One of the festivums was breathing fast, and hiding under driftwood, but I think it was also frightened when I opened the tank lid. 

I do love aponogetons! Was v. glad to find this one- bolivianus, which I hadn't seen in person before. I'd also like to have aponogeton crispus again, and maybe longiplumosus someday too.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

😅 please overload with more 😂 in all seriousness I know I'm not the only one enjoying the eye candy. Gorgeous fish!! 

Also wanted to say- keep that seeded filter on hot standby- I have had to use ery tabs (erythromycin) and it does destroy your bb. Please be careful using it. Good luck, I'm so sorry your fish are sick. I hope they get better real soon!!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks, Plinkploop. For the compliment!

Now I'm doubly worried- will the fish be okay, four days with impacted biofilter? I'm so anxious for tomorrow to come, when I can do the wc for them. I would have pulled the sponges out and just run air, but then I thought- if I kept the beneficial bacteria alive in a sponge in a bucket while treatment is going on, would I _also_ be keeping the pathogen alive and just end up re-introducing it to my tank? so I left them in. 

I get confident in my fishkeeping until something like this happens, and then I just feel like I don't know what's best to do for them.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

JJ09 said:


> Thanks, Plinkploop. For the compliment!
> 
> Now I'm doubly worried- will the fish be okay, four days with impacted biofilter? I'm so anxious for tomorrow to come, when I can do the wc for them. I would have pulled the sponges out and just run air, but then I thought- if I kept the beneficial bacteria alive in a sponge in a bucket while treatment is going on, would I _also_ be keeping the pathogen alive and just end up re-introducing it to my tank? so I left them in.
> 
> I get confident in my fishkeeping until something like this happens, and then I just feel like I don't know what's best to do for them.


Stay confident but trust your instincts when you see your fish struggle. I will disclose that I used it as a suspended liquid for oral use in treating a snapping turtle for a post surgery infection under direction of a fish and game vet. She would spit it back into the tub. My dosage may have been much higher than what is used in standard aquarium ery treatments. Follow course as directed because, if I'm not wrong, much like with humans it's worse to stop treatment in the middle because of the possibility of infections returning. Act as the filter if need be and don't be afraid to do a complete water change. And remember to breathe and take some moments to yourself 😉


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ok, thanks. I was concerned that if I do a water change between doses, I'd lessen the amount of meds still in the water? and if I re-dosed according to amount of water replaced, would that portion be too strong, since it was a day off schedule? if that makes sense. But they all ate eagerly today, even though the younger angels have more pale patches- Precious has a pale area on her side now, fungus? body slime? I'm not sure- and the festivums look totally fine, although they startle more easily than usual and then breathe pretty fast. . . I don't feel like it's quite an emergency yet.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

You _can_ replace what you've removed but it's more important to keep with it for the duration, not so much that 100% of it stays stagnant. If your fish are struggling too much with it it's likely to do more harm than good so removing/ diluting it to a point your fish are comfortable takes precedence. 

I, honestly, hate using this stuff with a passion. There are situations that it definitely works for and I have used it with moderate success but it is stressful on everything in your aquarium. As long as you can provide the water changes as necessary and keep a hawks eye out things will be ok.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Update: Well, they look the same- still a white blot on Shirley's lip,








and white areas on pectoral fins of both young angelfish. The red body marks are showing more:















Miss Beautiful looks fine. If anything, I think the redness she'd had- at base of pectoral fins- has diminished.















They all have good appetites, eager for food which is encouraging. The younger ones are a lot quicker to grab bites, now. I'm feeding them more lightly, because of the impacted filtration- but still three times a day. Pinch of flake in the morning, fourth of a frozen cube at midday, a sprinkle of cichlid pellets dinnertime.

I didn't get a good look at the kuhlis just now, but the one I did glimpse seemed okay- searching eagerly around on the bottom when I gave them all brine shrimp. Festvums- totally fine. Trumpet snails are climbing the walls, though. That's unusual- and I bet it's because of the filter. I did replace the other airstone today, so flow is maximum now. The glass is still very smudged from algae- I haven't used the magnetic cleaner yet because don't want to stress the fishes anymore right now. Who knows if they'll find a square-shaped thing sweeping across the glass something to freak out about.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well, the good today- everyone is eating well, no signs of stress (except the smaller festvium sometimes shows his stripes). In fact, Shirley went _so_ eagerly for food today I thought she was going to break the surface and bonk her head on the tank lid. White patches on the golden sisters' fins are smaller, but there are more of them. (This is Precious).








Redness under the skin, and Shirley's lip, look unchanged. Treatment round isn't done yet, and I'm glad to see they're tolerating it well so far, but I'm getting pretty anxious about her mouth. 















Festviums:


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

All the fish in the tank are eager for food, this morning. Nobody looks stressed. I checked water parameters twice since treatment ended- yesterday after doing the water change -37% because that's how much bucket space I had (the instructions recommended 25%). Ammonia and nitrite, zero. Nitrates 30-35 ppm.








The fishes are improved, but only partly. The golden sisters still have pale patches on their pectoral and tail fins, but much smaller, almost completely gone. The still have red streaks on edge of body below dorsal and on caudal peduncle, but it does look a bit less. Not sure if Precious has patches on the body, too- or was there a smudge on the glass
















Shirley still has white on her lip.
























I got a good look at the kuhlis, which all came out to eat this morning. They're plump and active, but very red around the gills and pectoral fin area. I'm kinda surprised the biofilter doesn't seem to be affected- so guessing the kuhlis are irritated from the medication. Water is still kinda foamy, so going to do another wc today. Larger, if I can (my extra bucket is holding the substrate I was soaking, need to find another container for that). 

Trying to decide what to do. My options:
Just do extra wc daily, maybe with aquarium salt
Do another treatment round of Erythromycin 
Switch to Kanaplex, or maybe Fungus Guard (if I can find it)
Any of the above, but moving the two affected angels into the QT instead of treating the main tank again (which is going to start getting expensive here if I have to go buy more Erythromycin, etc)

On another note- in spite of not actually being planted yet, my aponogeton bolivianus is doing fine. Two of the smaller leaves melted, but the largest ones haven't, 

I got a good look at the kuhlis, which all came out to eat this morning. They're plump and active, but very red around the gills and pectoral fin area. I'm kinda surprised the biofilter doesn't seem to be affected- so guessing the kuhlis are irritated from the medication. Water is still kinda foamy, so going to do another wc today. Larger, if I can (my extra bucket is holding the substrate I was soaking, need to find another container for that). 

Trying to decide what to do. My options:
Just do extra wc daily, maybe with aquarium salt
Do another treatment round of Erythromycin 
Switch to Kanaplex, or maybe Fungus Guard (if I can find it)
Any of the above, but moving the two affected angels into the QT instead of treating the main tank again (which is going to start getting expensive here if I have to go buy more Erythromycin, etc)

On another note- in spite of not actually being planted yet, my aponogeton bolivianus is doing fine. Two of the smaller leaves melted, but the largest ones haven't, 








and it's sprouting new ones!








I'm going to put pothos on the back of the tank, again, to help take up nitrates. Took cuttings from one of my houseplants. Put them in a shallow tray of water so the roots will go down horiztonal from the stem (more or less).


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> All the fish in the tank are eager for food, this morning. Nobody looks stressed. I checked water parameters twice since treatment ended- yesterday after doing the water change -37% because that's how much bucket space I had (the instructions recommended 25%). Ammonia and nitrite, zero.* Nitrates 30-35 ppm.*


This is definitely high for a low tech planted tank. Angles prefer < 10ppm. Higher nitrates can lead to disease.

I don't like to give unsolicited advice because I don't want to stress you, but when you get a chance, (if this was my tank), I would do a 70% water change. That will roughly cut nitrates by 2/3rds. Down to the 10ish range.

The reason to do large water changes occasionally is because if you don't, nitrates/phosphates can creep up over time.

Sometimes the best thing to do is just provide the cleanest/best environment you can, and not mess with salinity or meds. If there is very mild irritation on the fish, just make sure the water parameters are clean, and use something mild like Stress Coat or Melafix.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I don't mind, thank you for pointing it out. Nitrates used to be always below 20, usually closer to 10, when I had only one angelfish, and pothos on the back of the tank. Then I thought some of the plants were struggling because pothos was taking so much nitrates out, took it off. That was months ago. I realize adding more fish suddenly makes a lot more waste for the tank- going to put the pothos back and more than I had before. Did another 30% wc just now, I can do a 70% tomorrow or sunday when I have more uninterrupted time. Going to bump up my regular wc schedule to, from the 25% I'd been doing ever week, to 40 or 50% weekly. Do you think that will keep it good water quality, after I do a big wc tomorrow. Though it would be easier for me to do two wc each week of 30% rather than one of 50%- but I don't know if it matters which way is better for them.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

50% weekly is good. Strongly recommend getting a Python and/or pump to automate water changes. Bucket brigade is too labor intensive to be successful long term. My pump cost $15 and the clear tubing was $5. Cheaper than a python.

My setup, I have a 40 gallon trash can in a closet as a reservoir that auto fills from an ice maker line and uses a float to cutoff. If there was a sink or bathtub closer, I wouldnt need that. To perform a water change, I put the pump in a tank, and route the water out a window. To fill, I put the pump in the reservior and route to a tank.

Your tank is large enough that if water quality is good, fish won't get sick. Just try to keep it consistent. 50% water change weekly. If the water is soft, amend with CaSO4 and MgSO4. Dose Micros. Low tech tank may not even need macro ferts with your fish load. Pythos will not do anything meaningful for the Nitrate levels. Its a band aid that doesnt do anything. Good luck.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ok. I have thought about getting a large trash can on wheels to use for wc- but I don't have a closet nearby and I don't think my family will like having a trash bin hanging out in the living room . . . so have to think more about where I would keep that or how I would set it up. I really want to keep using the tank water for plants and/or toilet flushes, I hate to just run it back down the drain (though I am doing that now while still clearing medication out), which I why I still do buckets and haven't ever gotten the python that hooks to the sink. 

Tested nitrates before feeding today. It's between 10 and 20 ppm (I have trouble seeing the diff in those oranges on the API gradient chart). Later today going to do the big wc, if I can't fit it in definitely first thing tomorrow morning.

Fishes still eager to eat- fun to see them all line up at the front glass when I'm near, looking between me and the water surface! Patches on pectoral fins of those two angels even fainter, white on Shirley's lip only slightly smaller. I'm hopeful I can turn this around w/better water quality.

Going to get a mini gravel vac to clean out my planter baskets between the crypts and vals, if I can. That's something I've neglected.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Did a 70% wc. This morning Nitrates are under 10 ppm. The gold angels are starting to look better- pale spots on fins almost gone, white on Shirley's lip _is_ smaller.








It's hard to get a sharp photo she did not hold still much, eager when I'm standing in front of the tank to beg for food, now.
















The kuhlis look better too- only slightly flushed around the gills. Didn't get any photos of them, though. Here's a few more of Shirley.
















Bad news is now there's a new problem- some of them have pale, stringy poop. From some of the fish it's paler brown with a stringy trail, other one it's white nearly clear, all stringy. Either the festivums still had something when I moved them over, or the angelfish brought parasites with them, or they got it from the frozen food I started feeding. I bet it's the second scenario. Now I have to figure out what's going to get rid of _this_, sigh.

I spent a few hours on the tank, yesterday morning. Don't mind, I actually enjoy working among the plants. Cleaned out a lot dying plant leaves- mostly vals- by hand, wiped algae off the glass, cleaned the substrate in the planters with miniature gravel vac, planted the aponogeton bolivianus (and had to move a few things around to do that). I think things look better, but still feel like I'm doing something wrong. Got lax with keeping things clean enough, when it was down to the one angelfish. Got too hasty to accept when someone else's needed a new home- I am going to be more cautious about taking in adoptive fish again. And certainly not without proper quarantine period. Mistake is biting me now.

_Edit add_: Maybe I'm overthinking this. Can the frozen foods make their poop look different colors? Nobody is lacking appetite, or looking emaciated. Their plump bellies could just be well-fed, or in the case of the females, full of eggs again. Miss Beautiful does look swollen and red around the anus, which is why I got the frozen daphia. I thought if she's constipated, it would help. But she's the only one who won't eat it! The others all eagerly eat it up, she just ignores the daphia. Too small? and she'll never eat cooked peas anymore, so maybe I should try giving her an epsom salt bath.

But I think first I will change my feeding routine to see if I can rule this out. Give them only prepared foods for a few days, see if all the poops are normal dark brown. Then give them mysis shrimp again, see if they poop pale/white right after that, I'd guess it's the food changing the waste color. In QT, my paradise fish has been eating same variety as the angels, he looks fine but there's pale waste scattered among normal brown ones on the tank bottom. Hm.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Fingers crossed it's just the food!! Good luck!!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Pale stringy poop can mean they are not getting enough food.









Stringy White Fish Poop - Aquatic Veterinary Services


White fish poop is not a parasite. Learn what white stringy poop in fish actually means and if you need to be concerned about it in your fish tank or pond.




cafishvet.com




.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks, yeah, me too. I read articles and posts for over an hour this morning, comparing symptoms and treatments for various worms and other internal parasites. Symptoms don't all seem to quite match up. Miss Beautiful looks a lot less swollen around the vent now, and the two younger angelfish are in breeding mood again- Shirley starting to clean plant stems here and there, Precious threatening other fish- I am going to watch a lot more closely if I can catch them in the act of laying eggs, as I am getting suspicious that maybe Precious is male after all . . .


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ah- well, it was the larger festivum I saw with the pale stringy waste, and he's _always_ hungry. Eats faster than everyone, goes about picking up all the tiniest bits of food left over, hunts snails all day, and nips at edges of plants. Seems to be growing quickly, too. Maybe he needs more than the others? I had lightened up on feeding them last week because worried about water parameters while I was treating with the Erythromycin- I'm back to feeding them a solid three times a day now.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

I'd say feed him a bit more but be ready with a turkey baster for what he doesn't finish. My oscars and dempseys used to put back a ton of food in the adolescent/ sub adult stage. You can probably hand tame him if he's that food motivated 😁


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I thought of that. Right now my kuhli loaches are getting really plump from eating all the tiny bits that drift down . . . I was hoping to boost their numbers (I only have four) but don't want to add any new fish until I'm sure the tank is healthy again. I am pretty sure I could get this guy to eat from my hand- or a pair of tweezers. He's also starting to harass the other fishes- maybe due to feeling peevishly hungry all the time . . .


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Hum. I have one extremely picky angel that I had to resort to feeding by hand. Took a day or so for him to trust the hand wasn't a predator but now he's not shy about hand eating. The female (of the pair); is more weary and won't ....


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

I would train oscars and dempseys to swim into my hand to get their food. After they'd get used to people they'd do the same for their other humans too- people tended to love this and definitely earned me some $. It's not all of them that will do it, but you usually can tell. He very well could be peevishly hungry 😂


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Nitrates a definite 10 ppm this morning- going to do a 50% wc tomorrow. I'm going to check nitrates daily for a while, see how often I have to do a substantial wc to keep it low. Shirley is improving. 








But Miss beautiful has some scales missing.








and has been hiding in the background (there's the newly-planted aponogeton bolivianus in front her- I had to lean some rocks on the bulb to hold it down until the roots grow more)








I suspect Foxface. When I fed them today I was able to give him extra bites with skinny tweezers. 








Thought it could well have been Precious- both golden angels look plump as if with eggs again, and have their breeding tubes out, and seem to be claiming a corner together. Shirley cleaning leaves, Precious driving other fish away. Drama never ends here.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Tested the KH and GH. KH was easy to read- it went from blue to yellow at 6 drops.
GH on the other hand- thirty drops in there and it's still murky yellow-greenish. Not a real green. 

Nitrates are still 10 or below. I've done 40% wc daily since last time I posted here. Keep thinking the white on Shirley's lip is diminishing, until I compare my photos side by side and then I am not encouraged. It seems to stubbornly hang on the center of her lower lip. More little white patches on pectoral fins. Rinsing the other sponge filter today, what else can I do to keep it cleaner. Ammonia is zero all this time (I've been testing for that, too) yet the angels still have faintly reddish streaks under their skin. 
















Foxface (the larger festivum) almost ate from my hand the other day, but today he shies away when I open the lid and won't approach. I'm dismayed to see what looks like a scale on his side lifting, maybe a lump forming under it. I can't get a good picture of it because he moves quickly, but it look just like what my last betta had (years ago) that turned into a larger lump then became an open sore, then the fish died within a month. I'm appalled this might be the same thing.

On the other hand, the angelfishes amuse me. Two days ago I found Miss Beautiful and Precious had paired up- Precious was laying eggs on a filter tube, and Miss Beautiful was eating them. But then she started tending them instead. Well, now I know for sure all of them are female!








I'm concerned these white patches, especially Shirley's lip, aren't going away. I'm thinking of giving her a salt dip, if that would help. I know it would stress her to be caught and taken out of the tank for it, though. I looked back at my records and realized it's been 8 months since I bought fresh food, so today I dumped most of my opened packets/cans and got new foods. Since they've been having pellets and flake past few days, all the waste I see looks normal. I decided not to give them the frozen beefheart again though. My cat has been getting a few cubes a day as treats haha.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

JJ09 said:


> Tested the KH and GH. KH was easy to read- it went from blue to yellow at 6 drops.
> GH on the other hand- thirty drops in there and it's still murky yellow-greenish. Not a real green.
> 
> Nitrates are still 10 or below. I've done 40% wc daily since last time I posted here. Keep thinking the white on Shirley's lip is diminishing, until I compare my photos side by side and then I am not encouraged. It seems to stubbornly hang on the center of her lower lip. More little white patches on pectoral fins. Rinsing the other sponge filter today, what else can I do to keep it cleaner. Ammonia is zero all this time (I've been testing for that, too) yet the angels still have faintly reddish streaks under their skin.
> ...


My cats loved the beef heart cubes too, so did my snapping turtle. It's a good thing to feed beef heart sparingly, it's caused some issues for me as well growing out my large cichlids. It could be they're still recovering from the ery treatment- it's tough on fish. Is the red getting better slowly or does it seemed like it's just stagnant?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Plinkploop said:


> My cats loved the beef heart cubes too, so did my snapping turtle. It's a good thing to feed beef heart sparingly, it's caused some issues for me as well growing out my large cichlids. It could be they're still recovering from the ery treatment- it's tough on fish. Is the red getting better slowly or does it seemed like it's just stagnant?


Can't quite tell. Sometimes I look and can barely see it, other times there's a definite flush. It's always on edge of the back, right where dorsal fin meets body near the tail, and edge of caudal peduncle, where that fin starts. My first thought on seeing it was: ammonia. Then I used to think my older angelfish had some kind of infection, like septicemia- so I treated with kanaplex back then- she got better for a short while then it came back. Now I'm dreading that maybe it's a symptom of fish TB? because one of the festivums has a raised scale on his side that seems to be forming into a lump. The last betta I had developed something v similar that grew larger and turned into an open sore with grey edges and then I euthanized him. I had no idea what it could be. Now I'm wondering: ulcers, red inflammation, some ragged fin edges- could it all add up to that? 

plus in my other tanks last year my male guppies died one by one, I never knew why (they were barely a year old) and the first group of white cloud minnows I had also died off- until I got fry from the last three that were left. Those ones are all grown up now . . . seem fine but one died earlier this week with internal bleeding and swelling. And my paradise fishes only lived two, three years- then they both got lethargic, pale, clamped fins, lost appetite and finally I euthanized them after trying several treatments that failed to help. They'd get better for a while, then decline again, it was so frustrating. 

I don't know what to think. I'm feeling like a bad fishkeeper today. All those symptoms I mention could be due to other causes of course, I don't want to be panicky and jump to wild conclusions, but if that's what this is, it's not curable is it. Just let the fishes live out their lives, or until they really start to suffer, and then tear down the whole tank. Or all my tanks. 

Ugh I need to go do something else now. From where I'm sitting the angelfishes look beautiful- and my family standing close to the glass, they see nothing amiss. But I see the uneven fin edges, the faint pale marks that shouldn't be there, the ruffled looking scale on Foxface's side. I can't stop noticing it until they're in good health again.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

I'm so sorry. I think giving it a few days to a week of just keeping pristine conditions and then a return to the diagnosing (barring anything else going seriously wrong) might help a little, at least with your own sanity. You're not a bad fish keeper if you care this much about your tank. Don't beat yourself up.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Since the last time I posted about this, there's some improvement.








Fins are almost clear on both gold angels, but not quite.








I'm very tempted to try giving them a salt bath. Nitrates have remained below 10ppm and I'm now doing 30% wc every other day. Eased up on them because some of the plants are starting to look shabby. Keeping the water extra clean means less nutrients for them. (Checked the Nitrates and yes they're still staying below 10) However there's also another issue. Precious ate some of my aponogeton bolivianus (see the leaf tip in front of the heater)!








I saw her mouth the leaves yesterday and thought she must be getting in breeding mood again, and is cleaning. But then she started tugging on it, and wrenching the tips of other leaves. Was she just overdoing the cleaning action? or super hungry? maybe I've let up a bit _too_ much on the feeding. I really hope she isn't going to grow into an angelfish that eats my plants, and doubly hope the other won't follow her example!

Foxface, by the way, has been growing _so fast_. I think he's a full two inches now. But this small raised scale on his side concerns me. It's gotten a little bigger, definitely looks like what Sam had. Still hard to get a photo of it, because the fish rarely stays still! but visible as a shadow at certain angles- it's on his left side, about half an inch behind the pectoral fin. Two days ago:
















Today:








When Sam had this I never knew what it was- a tumor? cyst? viral lymphocystis? bacterial fish TB? Looking for answers again. Found a description that sounded exactly the same- a lump that starts under the scale, grows bigger, breaks open into a sore (not at that stage yet w/Foxface). The site I read about it someone said it's an abscess, and treatment is to put the fish in hospital tank when the swelling gets larger, then after it bursts open do tons of water changes and use anti-bacterial medication (or aquarium salt failing that). Also possible to swab the wound with iodine or potassium permangenate. Well, at least I still have my QT running, sigh.


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## mudbugmike (Jul 14, 2021)

Thanks for sharing this. New to the hobby myself with a 55g and angels. The oak leaves are a nice touch I hadn't thought of.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I did a salt bath for Shirley. And finally, some _real_ improvement! She tolerated it quite well- was calm during the actual bath. I used 1 TB aquarium salt per gallon and made her bath 3 gal. I didn't want her to feel cramped. But I think 1.5 or 2 gal would have been enough. It was when I dipped out half the salt bath and started replacing with some fresh water - to do a gradual readjustment- that she started darting around frantically. I netted her out, dipped into the recovery bucket of fresh tankwater, then straight back into the tank.

She hid from me for a bit. Now looks fine, swims expectant to the front glass again but when I approach with the camera she's a bit leery. So no very close photos yet, but now I can clearly see the edge of her lip, without the fungus blot over it.
















Other news from the tank: I think I will have to get rid of Foxface, sigh. And maybe the other one. For a while now I've noticed him pestering the angelfishes- he glides slowly but deliberately straight at one of them, and the angel will tilt its body sideways, or its nose up (a submissive posture?) then dash away. Sometimes he chases them. Which would be fine, except now I sometimes see him_ jab_ at the other fish at the end of his glide, and a speck will float free, and he darts sideways to grab it. Is he eating their scales?! He's also eating the hornwort, and browned tips of vallisneria leaves, and there are very few snails left in the tank- except the two nerites. That's fine, but not this! 

Little Rascal remains rather timid- but I don't know if the smaller festivum would start being aggressive to the angels if I remove the dominant Foxface. I've read that male festivum can be nasty tempered, while the females are calm and mild-mannered. Don't know which genders mine are, or if that's true.

I got some decent photos of my kuhli loaches! Hanging out on a little java fern:








Poking through the amazon swords (one of their favorite spots):








Tiger on the driftwood log. I like how some of the subwassertang is starting to spread-


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

So glad to hear the salt dip worked!! Too bad about the festivum. I, honestly, think with ALL cichlids it is really dependent on the fish, just like betta. 

It usually took me quite a while and quite a few rehomes before I'd get a mixed semi aggressive sa/ ca cichlid tank stocked. I would say try banning foxface for a week, put him in a qt tank or set up a tub and then try introducing him (?) again. Expect him to still act like a jerk, but I have had a couple dempseys and oscars learn to behave this way. 

Is he eating their scales- yes, quite possibly. I've seen several different omnivorous species decide that scales are delicacies. I don't know why it happens. I stay away from tiger barbs and similar because I've had a few that have displayed this behaviour and it's quite disturbing.

Good luck, glad things are coming together better 😁👍 good job!!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks. Yep- I am going to put Foxface back in the QT, wait for a week or 2 and see how the smaller festivum does w/out his presence. I don't know if I'll try to re-introduce Foxface- already I feel he will outgrow this tank space faster than I expected. If Rascal remains well-behaved, I'll keep just the one maybe. If he starts acting aggressive- (he _did_ used to pick on the severum when they were together in QT all the time, even though severum was bigger) I'll probably re-home the both of them. They're very cool fish and I admire them v much, but I love my angelfishes more.

Planning to do another salt bath for Shirley tomorrow, if the fungus isn't all gone in the morning. Hopefully she will let me catch her again, but it will probably be trickier.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Hopefully, for both your sakes, she's better and you don't have to catch her. Animals are stressful lol


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yeah, I'll be very relieved when I can relax and do wc just twice a week instead of every day/ every other day!


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

I want the kuhli ! Is that a pangio kuli or a pangio merysi ?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

jake21 said:


> I want the kuhli ! Is that a pangio kuli or a pangio merysi ?


They are pangio kuhli. Mine are five or six years old now, and getting some girth! I think they've gotten a bit bigger since I started feeding the tank frozen foods again.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

mudbugmike said:


> Thanks for sharing this. New to the hobby myself with a 55g and angels. The oak leaves are a nice touch I hadn't thought of.


I liked having the leaves in there! But I don't put them anymore- it started to get tedious pulling out the decaying ones, and if I left them too long, would clog my siphon hose. Also, my older angelfish always seems to have some subtle illness- and I wonder if I introduced something via the leaves (even though I boiled them), or live foods I used to feed out of the garden. Don't do that anymore, either.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Here's an update w/lots of pics. I've been giving Shirley a salt bath every day. The spot on her lip _is_ smaller again, but not gone yet.








She's tolerated the salt baths better each time- sitting calmly, not darting about frantically so I end it abruptly. The last bath I upped the salt dose to a heaping tablespoon per gallon. But now she's harder to catch out of the tank. Trusts me enough she comes eagerly to the front if thinks it might be food time- but if I have the net she hides and crams herself into corners now. I'm afraid she'll injure another fin. I was able to get a close look at her pectoral fins while she was in the bath, and the spots seem to be where fin rays were damaged, probably broken from fleeing the festivum (both festivums are out of the tank now). I'm giving them to another fishkeeper (with full disclosure that the angels they shared a tank with might have a disease). I never saw Rascal threatening the angels, but I did see them leaning sideways and moving quickly out of his way. Are they leery of him because the other was a bully? or was he nipping at them when I didn't see. Well, it doesn't matter anymore. 

Now Shirley's keeping to the corner not because of me, but because the other angelfish are busy with eggs again!








Is this no surprise? Yesterday, Precious laid eggs again.








This time on a narrow crypt balansae leaf.








One that already has a few holes in it from somebody trying to eat it. So not only did she miss the edge sometimes, but also made her pass over the gap, so eggs kept falling. Then Miss Beautiful, in attendance, would dart down to grab (and eat it).
















It's been amusing to watch Precious try every angle to get eggs on the leaf-








turning sideways to try and lay them on the narrow edge, 








or upside down to put them underneath, when she ran out of top surface. I don't know if those stuck!
















I used to feel a bit sad watching them go through all this, knowing they'll never see the process to completion. Do they wonder why it isn't working, when they have a partner now? Do they feel disappointed the eggs don't hatch. Well, now I think: hey at least they have something to do, other than eat, sleep, and drift in circles. Maybe it feels purposeful, even though they never get fry.
















Miss Beautiful sure is in fine color again. Her tail fin is almost completely healed, from the tear it got when I netted her out to add her companions a month ago. But can also see the red streak on edge of body is back, and worse.








If anyone wants to hear how frustrating it was trying to catch the bully Foxface, I can tell that too. I set a trap (fish bag full of water suspended sideways with food in it). The smaller festivum and even an angelfish went in and out, eating the food- and all the time Foxface watched them and saw that they were okay, and wouldn't go near it himself. I lost patience after an hour, and tried to net him. He's very agile and quick and knows all the hiding places in the tank. I had to take all the hardscape out (except the planted baskets) to get him. Then I did a big water change, because stuff had got stirred up. And -very sad- afterwards found one of my kuhli loachs in the wastewater bucket, dead. It was one of my first ones, that I'd had for over six years. I think it was unwell for a while- I hadn't seen it out and about with the others lately. 

The smaller festivum was ridiculously easy to get. I had Foxface in the QT a few days by himself and then saw the angels shying away from Rascal, small as he is, and just had a suspicion this situation will go south eventually if I keep him in there. Sigh. I floated the bag with food in it, like before. I thought he'd remember and steer clear but nope. He saw an angel get food no problem so then he went in himself. I had him out of the tank in less than five minutes!

I feel better they go together to a new home. Not the right fit for my tank, sure is disappointing. I still think they were really cool fish to watch. If I had another large tank I could set up with lots of driftwood hiding spots and tough plants only, I'd keep them.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Precious is absolutely adorable 😂 you got some really great pics there!!


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

You should feel fortunate that shirely is not in worse shape. From your description you have 3 angels 2 f and 1 m; my personal experience in that combination is that the alpha female can at times go hyper on that odd female and completely shred her (this behavior i have observed at times when the alpha female is not breeding). I'd keep a close eye on the ladies. In my 120 i have 3 pairs (long story but they mostly grew up together) as well as two odd males (8 total). It is a delicate dynamics that constantly changed as the pairs jostle for ownership or sections of the tank. It was never my intention to keep more than 2 angels (5 of the angels are off springs since I wanted to see what structures they would develop from their parents - the 8th was originally a pair with a black male but the platinum female stole her original male after nearly killing her original mate - (i had platinum m/f and the a black m/f and the platinum female decided to switch partners; so i had to give the male platinum - an extremely lovely fish I was sorry to let go to the lfs):


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

jake21 said:


> You should feel fortunate that shirely is not in worse shape. From your description you have 3 angels 2 f and 1 m...


Well no, actually I have 3 females. I have seen them all lay eggs at different times. Just turns out the older female Miss Beautiful and Precious have paired up as a same-sex couple. I wasn't intending for it to happen like that, of course! I was hoping that with just females in the tank they would all chill and get along, even if two were buddies and the third an odd one out. However it's just a day later now so the eggs are already dying and the protectiveness Miss Beautiful and Precious show is easing up.

I'm well aware of how aggressive dominant females can be. Miss Beautiful seriously beat up her previous mate- so I had to re-home him- that was over a year ago. I thought if there wasn't actual breeding going on, she wouldn't be so aggressive. Your tank is beautiful- I'm surprise with so many thick plants they can't find space to get away from each other enough. I'm hoping when my aponogetons grow in the increased plant cover will help mine feel calmer.

Last time I was at a pet store, I was just looking in the tanks and idly asked about dither fish choices to go with my angels. The employee pointed out some options and said "angelfish are the gentle giants of the tank world!" I nearly snorted through my mask (I think I just raised my eyebrows): _gentle giants_, really?? I guess that guy has never seen an angelfish turn its body horizontal and plane _fast _across the tank hitting its partner so hard you can hear the impact from across the room.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

JJ09 said:


> Well no, actually I have 3 females. I have seen them all lay eggs at different times. Just turns out the older female Miss Beautiful and Precious have paired up as a same-sex couple. I wasn't intending for it to happen like that, of course! I was hoping that with just females in the tank they would all chill and get along, even if two were buddies and the third an odd one out. However it's just a day later now so the eggs are already dying and the protectiveness Miss Beautiful and Precious show is easing up.
> 
> I'm well aware of how aggressive dominant females can be. Miss Beautiful seriously beat up her previous mate- so I had to re-home him- that was over a year ago. I thought if there wasn't actual breeding going on, she wouldn't be so aggressive. Your tank is beautiful- I'm surprise with so many thick plants they can't find space to get away from each other enough. I'm hoping when my aponogetons grow in the increased plant cover will help mine feel calmer.
> 
> Last time I was at a pet store, I was just looking in the tanks and idly asked about dither fish choices to go with my angels. The employee pointed out some options and said "angelfish are the gentle giants of the tank world!" I nearly snorted through my mask (I think I just raised my eyebrows): _gentle giants_, really?? I guess that guy has never seen an angelfish turn its body horizontal and plane _fast _across the tank hitting its partner so hard you can hear the impact from across the room.


I don't think he's talking about the same fish we know and love... I have heard the impact smack you're speaking of 😂 it's horrifying.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yesterday the eggs turned white- all dead (unfertilized). Precious kept fanning and protecting them, Miss Beautiful wanted to eat them- and aggressively drove Precious away so she could do so. Now Shirley is plump and her breeding tube showing, Miss Beautiful's tube is out also. I'm expecting Shirley to lay eggs next, but not sure if she will pair up with one of the others? Last time she laid eggs was with one of the males I removed. Perhaps Miss Beautiful and Precious have a strong enough bond they simply won't allow her to lay eggs.

Precious has a few fin tears from Miss Beautiful chasing her, I think that will heal okay but Shirley has flat white marks on her tail fin that weren't there before. Her lip is the same- a small white blot in center. I didn't do a salt bath yesterday or today- but am still testing the water daily. Nitrates started to get above 10ppm so I did a wc today. 

My plan is to do 30% wc twice a week on a regular basis now. Every other wc I either rinse one of the filter sponges or gravel vac the planters, and I made a little chart so I won't forget what I did last time. I'm thinking of making new baskets, to have them all uniform height and a bit less depth- maybe that will help me keep it cleaner. When I bought new food recently, I immediately tossed half the amount of each package, because I know I will only go through about half in six months, and this will easily remind me to buy new food for them again. 

Upset because I think they have viral septicemia. I was going to try putting all of them- the three angelfishes and three remaining kuhli loaches- in my 20gal QT and treat with triple sulfa, but that would only help if this is the bacterial form of the disease, and most accounts I read of that say the fishes die very quickly of that, within _days_. Whereas some can be resistant to the viral form. And there's no cure. So basically I can't add any fish, and have to just give them the best care until they're suffering too much, then euthanize and leave my tank empty for 2 weeks. After that the virus should die out lacking a fish host. If the info I read was correct.

I suspect this is what my two prior paradise fishes had. I don't know for sure, though. I treated the angelfish tank with praziquantel twice before, as I thought the jerky motions and twitchiness Miss Beautiful displayed, was from external parasites irritating her? She only got marginally better though, and the symptoms came back. She sometimes looses color and sits nose up, motionless or drifting, in the middle of the tank. Other times she twitches and darts around like something bit her, or shakes her ventral fins wildly (not the same jerking as when threatening another fish). The other day I saw one of the gold angels jerk the pelvic fins in the same way. And she's for a very long time, often startled and crashed into the walls (though not recently)- I thought she was just nervous, or being bitten by the black skirt tetras- but now I wonder if it was the virus affecting her brain all this time. They all show the red streaks still, which fades sometimes and is more vivid other times. 

Sorry if this is repetitive, I've been thinking about it a lot and reading a lot, trying to find symptoms described that match- and viral septicemia seems what it is because of the redness where the fins meet the body, or as if bruises under the skin. It makes me feel very glum. Upset that I adopted fish and put them in this tank which is probably infected, that my beautiful angels suffer, that I gave fish to someone else who might be carrying it. The festivums didn't have symptoms but I did tell the guy who took them, that they'd shared a tank with fish I suspected were ill. And I showed him the angels, pointing out the symptoms and telling him my suspicions. He didn't seem too concerned, said he'd keep them in their own tank if he needed to. But now I feel like it would be have better had I just euthanized them instead.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

It seems this might resolve on its own, the mouth fungus. I've kept to my new cleaning schedule and maybe it's helping. Or having less stress with fewer aggressive fish in the tank is. Perhaps her immune system is finally fighting it off. Shirley's improved another margin.








The bruising under skin and odd behavior isn't any better, though. My family has started to notice: "Mom, why is your fish acting weird?" My husband has seen them wildly thrashing the pelvic fins, and today I was in the other room, replied "I don't know, what are they doing?" Ten-year-old told me that Miss Beautiful was at an odd angle, nose up, and the other fish was _picking_ at her. I feel a sense of dread. This is just what I saw going on with my prior paradise fishes before they died . . . 

Well, for the little additional help it will give in keeping nitrates low, most of the pothos vines I cut have sprouted roots long enough to reach.








So I've put them on the back of the tank- the stem sits horizontal on the rim lip, and the roots just touch the water through gap behind the skirt. It's working far better than the last way I did this.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Good news is that my two younger gold angels have improved. The plain gold one, Precious, doesn't have pale marks on her fins anymore.








Shirley's lip is almost completely better- only a tiny white mark remains, and the spots on her fins mostly gone, just a small bit still on tail fin.
















The inflamed look where Miss Beautiful's pectorals join the body, has diminished. But they all still have red flushed appearance under the skin, on edges of the body. And now there's a new issue with my older angel. Who still sometimes sits "tilted" nose up in the water or darts around jerking her pelvic fins alarmingly. White lumps have grown out of the corners of her mouth.








It reminds me of the lump Foxface had near his mouth. I don't know if the same thing.








The lump on her left (right in the picture) looks torn because Precious has been _biting_ at it. When Miss Beautiful sits motionless nose-up, one of the other fish sometimes nips at her. I don't know why. But I saw it many times with Perry and then Laddie, and I'm feeling very glum about it all, that an end might be near.








Wish I could figure out what it is. Could be a lip fibroma- benign tumor that has to be removed when it gets to the point of preventing the fish from eating- or euthanize before she starves. Not uncommon among freshwater angelfishes- I found quite a lot of forum discussions and a few articles on it. But all the pictures I've seen of that, it causes the lips to appear bulbous or swollen. I didn't see any where it was on the corners of the mouth. Which is also viral. Or could be early stage of lymphocystis, or something else I know nothing about.

Sigh. I've also read that female angelfish are more prone to lip fibromas. That combined with the constant repeated stress over egg-laying (even though they have no proper mates) makes me think, if I started over, tried again to keep a single sex angelfish tank, I'd go with males instead. Precious laid eggs all over the uplift tube after wc again yesterday. Miss Beautiful is helping guard them again. Shirley keeping to the opposite corner. Looks like Precious and Miss Beautiful are definitely a female/female pair, then. Which means Shirley gets harassed regularly a few days per month. Could be the stress of that also why took her so long to recover from the fugnus.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Saw all three angelfish fussing in one corner the other day, but not actually chasing each other- 








I stepped closer to see what was up. 








Shirley was attempting to lay eggs on the crypt balansae leaves. 








Without much success. She had no help, of course. She often missed the leaf edge, and the other two crowded close behind her to snatch and eat the eggs as they fell. Sometimes _so_ close behind her, it looked as if they were eating the eggs immediately emerged, or actually biting her protruding breeding tube. 








I felt kinda bad for her. At least the disruption in their normal calm routine doesn't even last a day when it's Shirley laying, as there's nobody to defend her and chase the third angelfish from the area, no aggression happens.








Glad to see in here the pothos roots all extending down branching, healthy and fast-growing. Nitrates are remaining below 10 every time I test, now. Still doing the twice-weekly wc.


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## jake21 (Aug 11, 2019)

Dang she is passive. My platinum angel is murder when laying eggs. Of course her mate sort of helps when he's not too busy eating. They are guarding wrigglers right now but being a community tank they won't get too far and i don't have tank space to raise them. Hum. Oh well. At least she stopped biting my hand when i'm cleaning the tank.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yeah well she's kinda at disadvantage, not having a mate and the other two females bonded. If she tried to drive one off, the other would immediately eat any eggs she laid. All pointless as there's no males in the tank (I didn't want them breeding). Still interesting to watch when one of them tries anyway, to spawn- her all by herself.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Angels doing fine together now








Shirley's condition the same (no fungus on the lip, small pale spot on tail fin, lingering redness . . .) 








same with her golden sister Precious








Not sure about Miss Beautiful. One one side, she no longer has redness where pectoral fin meets the body- 








and the lumps on corners of her mouth are much smaller- mostly because Precious has been nipping at them- but now she seems to be unable to close her mouth quite all the way? Hard to tell.








Pothos roots go all the way down to tank floor, now. I think other plants are feeling the lack of nutrients due to their uptake- hornwort is all short for weeks now, java fern going through an adjustment period again, crypt balansae looking a bit shabby. I decided perhaps less is more, and pulled out two of the large driftwood pieces with anubias on one, java fern on the other. The cypts and vals fill up vertical space enough I don't miss them at all, and the angelfish have more room to swim now. Kept those two driftwood pieces in a bucket near a window in case I change my mind and want to put them back within a week!

My digital camera is having issues. I have photos on there but can't move them onto the computer. So will have to post updates without images until I get a new one. Putting up the pictures is half the fun!


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