# Info on lights for plants and LED's, confused



## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

So I just switched from a 20g back to my 29 gallon and am hoping to get a 75 or bigger SOON.

I want plants in both and was sick of the stupid plastic hood so I just got a aqueon glass top and 30" LED light bar for the 29, as I was told it would work with plants, and 1 java fern.

Now from research I'm thinking I should add at least 1 more LED bar, probably the color make for some red light (I heard they are working on a plant LED bar finally). This doesn't seem to be the best light to use for plants, I don't want a fully planted tank or to have to use CO2 or anything that doesn't make sense to me I just want some to help my fish and look nice as fish put out CO2 and eventually nitrates and plants basically do the opposite. Also fish don't seem to like to hie in or touch fake plants.

To be honest I don't even know much about plants right now, I'm hopping to have a tank big enough for a jungle val to one side.

Now about lights I know that the regular tank lights aren't enough but I thought they were the wrong spectrum or something but T5's seem to just be brighter? Same thing just more light output? and whats a T8 and T12?

Also I know a fair amount about LED's and they are not black body radiators and don't produce a very wide spectrum of light, usually just the visible spectrum for humans and cooler color temps seems to be easier to achieve with them. I always thought if they made ones for plants they would be warmer color and higher CRI but it doesn't seem that way just normal 6,500k LED's? I'm wondering what I should use on my larger tank either 48 or possibly 72"s. T5's seem to get hot use a lot of power and cost a lot but so does the Marineland plant LET fixture, think because its new or something as the coral one is cheaper.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

T8 And T12 are the first and second types of flourescent bulbs that were made.
And BTW the T8 is more than adequate for a low tech/low light tank.
T5 iswhat mostly is available nowwith LED coming on strong but still very lacking in color in most of the fixtures and those which do have the color are but barely starting to get there. The manufacturers claims as to how long they last are wildly exaggerated
with some brands giving issues in less than a year.
They cost more than T5 to set up but use less electricity once going.
There are sections on here for a couple of the brands and their loyal customers which can give you more info on one of those brand. Look in "Lighting" for them.
Satalite is one of them as is BML which is a top brand @ top cost.
Guess you can tell by what I said that I like T5/T8 instead of LED.
You can spend a lot on a top brand of T5 also if you would like to.
A spray coating on the inside of them determines the spectrum of the T5 bulbs.
Generally speaking the 6500K range is best for plants but good plant bulbs start at 4100K and go through 9-10,000K.
Whatever determines the spectrum in LED's I know not. But those have good plant capabilities around 6-7000K. But many colors are available in the BML and you can custom build one for plants in there site. They also have stock models for plants.
Don't know what the cost of a Satalite+ is in 48" but one will give you low light in the 75g and two will put you in the high end of the med range or bottom of the high range
but that will require injected CO2.
A stock shop light can be bought from Home Depot for $40 and $10 each for good bulbs and it will give good light for plants in the low and some of the med light range for under $60-$70 total.


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## Onyx165 (Jul 16, 2013)

Plants actually couldn't care less about color temperature; that's something simply for human benefit when deciding how we want our tanks to look.

What plants actually care about, is the wavelength of light that hits them.









The big peaks in the 400-450nm range (violet-royal blue light), and the 630+ nm range (red), mean that plants utilize these types of light best for growth. Most T5s should mimic this spectrum, and good quality led arrays should too. 

If you're at all enticed by leds, take the plunge and build your own array. It is honestly not as hard and definitely not as expensive as some people make it out to be. There's a wealth of information out there on how to do it (between this forum and nanoreef), and you can completely customize which leds you want to use to satisfy plants/fish/your own needs. 

For reference: I build my own 70 watt reef-capable led fixture for my 60P for about $230, and I'll never have to spend money on replacement T5 bulbs


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

But let's not forget that if you did build one yourself, by using only bulbs which had
those two color ranges you would not get much visible light from your fixture.
The Zoo Med Flora sun bulb is an excellent plant bulb, but doesn't have much visible light compared to most any 6500K bulb. And it is 5000K. 
I use one 6700K bulb and one that has only 650nm wave length in one of my tanks and one 6500K and one Zoo Med Flora sun in the other tank. One bulb for human eyes and one bulb more friendly to plants in each tank.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ScaryFatKidGT said:


> Also I know a fair amount about LED's and they are not black body radiators and don't produce a very wide spectrum of light, usually just the visible spectrum for humans and cooler color temps seems to be easier to achieve with them. I always thought if they made ones for plants they would be warmer color and higher CRI but it doesn't seem that way just normal 6,500k LED's? I'm wondering what I should use on my larger tank either 48 or possibly 72"s. T5's seem to get hot use a lot of power and cost a lot but so does the Marineland plant LET fixture, think because its new or something as the coral one is cheaper.


warmer maybe.. and actually that is what they did..sort of..at least recently... Adding warm whites or other colorants to keep CCT a bit high but perceived warmer or more colorful.. w/ the exception of Agro lights which have NO CCT.. (purple)

6500k was what "natural sunlight was at" and though LEDs are not true black body radiators .. they were sold as "daylight equivalent" (same w/ flourescents btw)
Fortunately the non linear spectrum is just fine for plants.. not always so much for human perception though.. being a blue LED w/ phosphors..
t12's are a dead end unless you go w/ 48".. there is only one good bulb I know of that seems to be readily available.. Others may be fine but are of unknown spectrum (or quality for that matter)..

White LED's have really nor more or less "incomplete' spectrum than most fluorescent lights w/ the exception of the spike in UV (mercury emission line mostly) and some more IR (heat)
There heavy weighting of plant feeding blue makes them more spectrally efficient than equiv. flour. at the same CCT.. (fairly broad statement, but PAR wise there is evidence) 

T8's are fine.. a bit lower in power output but actually are a bit more "efficient" than t5's.. but I'd not base a decision on it.

T5's lots of bulb choices and prices being depressed by LED market expanding.. Still you are aware of their downsides..

side note high white LED's are generally more efficient so there was a tradeoff of "watt power" vs CCT...re: warm white LEDs'' and the yellow tint......
side note 2.. there incomplete spectrum is arguably more efficient for plants than an equiv fluorescent light..
About the only thing lacking in LED's is the UV bands (mostly mercury emission lines) and IR from heat..AND the "cyan gap"... 
(generic Fl, plant and targeted phosphor not represented)


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> T8 And T12 are the first and second types of flourescent bulbs that were made.
> And BTW the T8 is more than adequate for a low tech/low light tank.
> T5 iswhat mostly is available nowwith LED coming on strong but still very lacking in color in most of the fixtures and those which do have the color are but barely starting to get there. The manufacturers claims as to how long they last are wildly exaggerated
> with some brands giving issues in less than a year.
> ...


Those shop lights are blazing hot tho... wouldn't want them running all day in the summer time or someone burning them selves, do T5's/T8's get that hot? LED's only lasting a year? That's something wrong, most I see are 20,000 hour's but I have about 30 LED flashlights, some grossly over driven (although with extra heat sinking) and never had one go.



Onyx165 said:


> Plants actually couldn't care less about color temperature; that's something simply for human benefit when deciding how we want our tanks to look.
> 
> What plants actually care about, is the wavelength of light that hits them.
> 
> ...


Yeah thats kind of why I wanted the red led's in the Color max, aqueon doesn't make anything with blue yet, and as I said I find the Marinland very expensive. What LED's do people usually use for DIY? I'm most familiar with CREE but from looking at Aqueon and Marinland lights I don't think they are any manufacture I'm familiar with, Cree, Luminus or Nichia.



jeffkrol said:


> warmer maybe.. and actually that is what they did..sort of..at least recently... Adding warm whites or other colorants to keep CCT a bit high but perceived warmer or more colorful.. w/ the exception of Agro lights which have NO CCT.. (purple)
> 
> 6500k was what "natural sunlight was at" and though LEDs are not true black body radiators .. they were sold as "daylight equivalent" (same w/ flourescents btw)
> Fortunately the non linear spectrum is just fine for plants.. not always so much for human perception though.. being a blue LED w/ phosphors..
> ...


Lol a little over my head. I figured high CRI LED's put out more of the color spectrum so would be better. Is the UV and IR missing an issue for plants?

I always thought LED's wouldn't grow plant's idk why, If I get a 29" deep 210g and I have a hard time growing something I'm just going to stick my modded Thrunight TN31 over the top of it, something like 1500lm and 400,000+ lux haha, that should punch through the water.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ScaryFatKidGT said:


> Lol a little over my head. I figured high CRI LED's put out more of the color spectrum so would be better. Is the UV and IR missing an issue for plants?
> 
> I always thought LED's wouldn't grow plant's idk why, If I get a 29" deep 210g and I have a hard time growing something I'm just going to stick my modded Thrunight TN31 over the top of it, something like 1500lm and 400,000+ lux haha, that should punch through the water.


Ahh the "Shotgun effect".. works.. at a cost.. That's just an aimed LED..  
Lumens/lux also not important for plants actually.. but great for your eyes....
Just thought i'd throw this in: Flour light spectrum
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~zhuxj/astro/html/spectrometer.html










far IR (heat) not particularily..near IR (+700nm).. arguable but not worth exploring/you can search "red/far red photosynthesis".. if you want.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0005272805001192
UV.. well there is the red plant thing.. but nothing really documented. Many insist fluorescent light "color" red plants better. There are a lot of variables involved (from high nitrates, iron, phosphates to genetic predisposition).. It is only as important as you want to make it.. 
OH.. LED's grow plants just fine.....


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

A good amount of blue and red spectrum can be achieved with warm and cool white. If you wanted to take it a step further you could also drop in UV and now you have a fixture that almost matches the PAS while keeping it simple. Here is an example of a very simple build with 3 LED's for every foot of tank.

ReefLL 4-core violet
http://reefll.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_63&product_id=58

Bridgelux Vero 18 5600K
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/BXRC-56G4000-F-04/976-1198-ND/4747504

Bridgelux Vero 18 3000K 97CRI
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/BXRC-30H4000-F-03/976-1157-ND/3913132

You get this spectrum:


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> Ahh the "Shotgun effect".. works.. at a cost.. That's just an aimed LED..
> Lumens/lux also not important for plants actually.. but great for your eyes....
> Just thought i'd throw this in: Flour light spectrum
> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~zhuxj/astro/html/spectrometer.html
> ...


Yeah I know lux is bassed of the human eye I just don't know PAR readings on my hand held lights haha.



gus6464 said:


> A good amount of blue and red spectrum can be achieved with warm and cool white. If you wanted to take it a step further you could also drop in UV and now you have a fixture that almost matches the PAS while keeping it simple. Here is an example of a very simple build with 3 LED's for every foot of tank.
> 
> ReefLL 4-core violet
> http://reefll.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_63&product_id=58
> ...


Hmmm? Interesting? So do plants us UV for photosynthesis? I got lost. I know they have RGB LED's to fill out the color but they seem pretty spendy.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> Ahh the "Shotgun effect".. works.. at a cost.. That's just an aimed LED..
> Lumens/lux also not important for plants actually.. but great for your eyes....
> Just thought i'd throw this in: Flour light spectrum
> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~zhuxj/astro/html/spectrometer.html
> ...


Yeah I just don't know PAR measurements on my hand held lights lol.



gus6464 said:


> A good amount of blue and red spectrum can be achieved with warm and cool white. If you wanted to take it a step further you could also drop in UV and now you have a fixture that almost matches the PAS while keeping it simple. Here is an example of a very simple build with 3 LED's for every foot of tank.
> 
> ReefLL 4-core violet
> http://reefll.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_63&product_id=58
> ...


Hmmm I'm thinking about the satellite+, far cheaper than the Marineland. Amazon.com : Current USA Satellite Freshwater LED Plus Light for Aquarium, 24 to 36-Inch : Pet Supplies

So do plants use UV for photosynthesis or is it generally accepted that they grow fine without?

My issue with the Marineland is that on there web sit the 24-36" models the double bright is $125.99 the reef light is $291.89 and the Aquatic plant light is $278.99 but for street price on Amazon the DB is $69.16 (way cheaper) the reef light is $178.17 (over $100 cheaper) but the AP light is $195.49... Don't really wanna spend $200 on a light, let alone $400 for the 48". The 48" satellite is a mere $120 bucks.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

K this isn't letting me reply, this is my 4th attempt, no quotes

I could go with a satellite+ or a BML Dutch planted, or 10,000k planted (little high color temp, blueish) no sure what the Iwagumi is for?, the satellite+ seems really cheap for the features, no place around here sells them should I just get them off Amazon? I'd really like a light that would turn the moon light on with the timer or swtich? I've read plants only need about 8 hours of direct light but what about the other 4-6 hours for the fish?

My issue with the Marineland is the very high street price of the aquatic plant light, I really like the timer but the double bright and reef lights are significantly cheap by like $100 where the plant light is $195 for a 30" and almost $400 for a 48"


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I don't know what light you know of which has no heat, but shop lights can be either
T8 or T5 and the one I was refering to has T8 bulbs.
You already showed a preference to the LED so no reason to persue the Shop light from here.
You mentioned the light that came/w the tank bu didn't give details of it. So what is it
that came with it ? Perhaps you could just get a Satalite+ and that combined/w what you have would be plenty if you have few plants.
Your tatement that you don't want a lot of plants seems to be reason not to get anything like the Marineland planted or any other high grade light.
This is especially true of the BML 10,000K light or any BML light for that matter. Putting a high power light on a tank without much plants almost guarantees algae.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> I don't know what light you know of which has no heat, but shop lights can be either
> T8 or T5 and the one I was refering to has T8 bulbs.
> You already showed a preference to the LED so no reason to persue the Shop light from here.
> You mentioned the light that came/w the tank bu didn't give details of it. So what is it
> ...


Huh? I mean like lightbulbs get hot but only the bulb, everyone knows not to touch those, LED's get hot but it usually takes along time, tank lights usually use more lowerpowered LED's vs higher power less efficent ones and they usually provide good heatsinking. With the big yellow double shop lights the whole housing on them gets like 200+ degrees and I burned my self a couple times when I was a kid thats all I'm say is there ment for the garage or shop not really a house where little kids wanna look at the fishies.

Well I want a natural looking planted tank, they add oxygen, help get ride of nitrates etc. but I want stuff easy to take car of, I'm not planning on med-high light or CO2.

Right now I have a 29 gallon with the Aqueon LED light with a day max and a color max tube. Next weekend I'm planning on getting a 210 gallon and using the 29 for a quarantine tank. In the 210 I plan on Bala's, turquoise rainbowfish and my big pleco (currently in my 29) and some cories or other small fish. For plants I want a couple java fern or anubas and for sure a Jungle val as I think it will be cool in a 29" deep tank, other than that I don't know. If this falls through I will be getting something atleast 75-90g, what ever I can find on cragislist I just really want Balas but wouldn't put them in a 75 or 90g tank.

I will probably be using a FX6 on my big tank, this is the tank I'm looking for a light for. 24-29" deep, my only consern is the val getting toasted at the top?


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

So you don't have a tank that needs a light yet...
IF you get one...when you get one...then find out how tall it is and put that question in here again, but with a measurement on a tank you already have.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> So you don't have a tank that needs a light yet...
> IF you get one...when you get one...then find out how tall it is and put that question in here again, but with a measurement on a tank you already have.


They are almost all 24" deep except the 210 which is 29.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

So I guess it can only be a 4' tank so 48" light bars, either a 90 or 120 gallon is what I'm getting, will a 120 gallon require 2 light bars? or would 1 of the higher powered ones work or would that still be to much light?


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

K I've got a 120g 4'x2'x2' tank


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

ScaryFatKidGT said:


> K I've got a 120g 4'x2'x2' tank


No matter what commercial LED light you go with you are going to need 2 fixtures for even spread front to back. There is one exception to this and that is Kessil. They are designed for 24" sq. footprint. First you have to narrow down if you want commercial or DIY and then take it from there.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

I'd prefer commercial, its actually a 48"x24"x30 or 31" 150 gallon (lady was stupid and insisted it was a 75 gallon haha). It came with a Fluval marine and reef light, could I use that? It's not guna like kill fresh water plants or anything is it?


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

So to help me decide

*Marineland* - Planted tank light... spendy but could probably get away with 1?

*Fluval* - aquatic and plant light... spendy and under powered

*Finnex* - would I get they Ray2 dual 7000k or the Fudgeray planted+?

*Current* - satellite freshwater LED+ maybe under powered? would 2 get through over 24" of water? 30" deep tank.

*BML* - would I get the Dutch planted 6300k, Iwagumi 7000k or the planted 10,000k? Is it all just personal preference or do they have different spectrum's?

The Dutch planted says "The expert’s choice for planted tanks… This is the best light we sell for planted tanks -- according to our most experienced customers."

For the Iwagumi it says "Configured for the Nature Tank... The Iwagumi 7000K is calibrated to render the green colors in a planted tank accurately while flooding the tank with a clear, powerful light that will boost plant growth -- it is specifically designed to complement a minimalist approach utilizing mostly green plant material and neutral colored stone."

Most of my plants will be green?...

and the 10,000k says "High Power, enhanced reds, purples and darker greens... This planted tank fixture is a true 10000K light and is slightly cooler than our Dutch Planted 6300K. The 10000K provides a slight boost to the purple and red colors when compared to the 6300K, while subtly darkening the green colors."

Also idk what beam angle I would get most say they use 120 but the BML's only go up to 90 but I suppose it depends on if I got 1 or 2 fixtures.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ScaryFatKidGT said:


> So to help me decide
> 
> *Marineland* - Planted tank light... spendy but could probably get away with 1?
> 
> ...


Safest to first eliminate all w// sub 1W diodes.. and no optics..
The newest "flavor of the day" for large tanks is a custom reefbreeders.
I also suggest a custom DsunY... 
for High light I'd suggest 2 BML's.. W 2 and a controller dimmer you have the option of not being "stuck" w/ one spectrum and able to tweak the color

such as pairing a FF red w/ a FF blue as an example.

Marineland planted can be used as is.. but 2 for high light would still be required..


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

What's your budget? I would just go with a custom 48" Photon with 90deg optics.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> Safest to first eliminate all w// sub 1W diodes.. and no optics..
> The newest "flavor of the day" for large tanks is a custom reefbreeders.
> I also suggest a custom DsunY...
> for High light I'd suggest 2 BML's.. W 2 and a controller dimmer you have the option of not being "stuck" w/ one spectrum and able to tweak the color
> ...


What are the ones with sub w1 diodes and no optics? I know the Fluval doesn't have optics, just bare LED's but theres a crap load of them haha.

Not planning on high light just low-med in a 30" deep tank



gus6464 said:


> What's your budget? I would just go with a custom 48" Photon with 90deg optics.


Well It really depends I'd say <$400. I really liked the Marineland as 1. it seems very powerful 2. It looks good and matches my Marineland tank p) and 3. the built in time to allow it to use moonlight at night automatically, but compared to BML's, the current satellite and the ecoxotic, it seems very expensive.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

I kind of just want to get 3 48" aqueon modular LED lights with 3 bulbs each and see if can grow anything lol


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