# Questions about EI Dosing, nitrates, fish health



## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Hello All,

I have been using PPS - Pro on my tank and overall things are working beautifully - I would like to try EI. There are few contradictions that I understand about using EI - Nitrate reduction for the health of fish vs adding nitrate for the health of the plants. I would like to learn more because I think I may not understand how this fully works.


Adding Nitrates - I know, ideally, fish poop fertilizes the plants but we add nitrates to our water to suppliment the fish poop. When a fish gets sick, I've been told to reduce nitrates because it's a stressor on the fish that can cause illness in the first place. My nitrates after a 50% water change are ~30 after I add a dose via PPS. What I've read on EI, the nitrates are higher than 30 by week's end. I know we do a 50% water to reduce it but going it's still generally high. Anyone give me some insight on how this is okay? Is it because one is caused by waste and the other by direct addition of refined KNO3 type nitrate?

EI making plants red - I've read that plants that display red do it in high light, lots of iron, and 0 nitrates - I have the light and I dose iron every day with little red - How do you guys get your reds to pop?

EI and your Vacation plants - When you go on vacation, what do you do? I can't expect the person who feeds my fish to get the dosing right - partially for fear of messing it up and killing the fish, lol


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## farrenator (May 11, 2011)

FYI, I dose 1/2 EI. I started with PPS pro and kept adding until I didn't notice a difference in plant growth. It turns out it was basically 1/2 EI dose, so that is what I do now. I have a high fish load, injected CO2 and T5 HO lights.

1) I think with EI the goal is to get around 30ppm Nitrate by the end of the week. If you are hitting that number with PPS doses I wouldn't dose more. As far as NO3 from poop vs. chemicals, I don't know if there is a difference on fish health. For sure, many species of tropical fish can tolerate 30ppm + 
2) For me, reds in plants is related to intensity of light. Mind you, the only 'red' plants I have experience with are Limnophila Aromatica and Luwigia.
3) When I go on vacation I don't do the weekly water change, I turn down my lights/decrease photoperiod and turn down CO2 slightly. I have heard of some people dosing their weekly dose in one go but I have not done that. If you have been dosing for a while and you can get away with not fertilizing for a while if you slow the tank down - reduce light intensity and photoperiod.



sundragon said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I have been using PPS - Pro on my tank and overall things are working beautifully - I would like to try EI. There are few contradictions that I understand about using EI - Nitrate reduction vs adding nitrate for the health of fish. I would like to learn more because I think I may not understand how this fully works.
> 
> ...


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

You do realize that EI is a specific fertilization scheme with substances in different ratios than PPS-Pro right?

EI is not a scheme of dosing ANY fertilizer. It is a scheme for dosing the specific fertilizers specified by the recipe. PPS-Pro contains other compounds as well. You can easily unbalance the aquarium by dosing PPS-Pro per EI.

My two cents.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

danielt said:


> You do realize that EI is a specific fertilization scheme with substances in different ratios than PPS-Pro right?
> 
> EI is not a scheme of dosing ANY fertilizer. It is a scheme for dosing the specific fertilizers specified by the recipe. PPS-Pro contains other compounds as well. You can easily unbalance the aquarium by dosing PPS-Pro per EI.
> 
> My two cents.


 I think you are exaggerating a bit bro! 

Nothing wrong would happen, nothing good will happen.
-----

OP:

To be able to harm your livestock with ferts, you really have to overdose a lot.

If you go on vacations just lower the amount of light by raising the fixture and or shortening the time it's on and don't have them dose if you are using EI.

Plants are red because they are red, getting plants that are like that is key and a good amount of light. The rest is like talking about magic. I know what you mean by no nitrogen but its not just nor dosing nitrogen all the time, it's a "show" technique.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

pejerrey said:


> I think you are exaggerating a bit bro!
> 
> Nothing wrong would happen, nothing good will happen.
> -----
> ...


 

Note also plants store nutrients. so going on vacation they can survive with lower light levels EASILY with not extra nutrients added
for safety levels, do't be concerned
i've had 200 ppm of nitrates with no apparent fish stress, not that i try daily to do that, but my average is around 40-60 before water change, i feed my fish often, i dose fertilizers frequently, and my plants grow very rapidly. phosphates stay high as well. usually around 8-12 ppm
AND YES there is a difference between organic nitrates, and fertilized nitrates. organic( fishpoop) can do more harm tha fertilized nitrate, but again the tolerance is pretty high on healthy fish in a well maintained aquarium.

as pjerrey mentioned. red plants are red because the respond to strong light by pigmentation. they are protecting delicate tissue when they turn red. some plants don't need much to do this, some plants are more hardy and require much more light to do this. limiting nitrogen just allows less production of chlorophyll and the pigmentation already present to show through. it is not the key to a healthy plant


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> organic( fishpoop) can do more harm tha fertilized nitrate


Can you elaborate a bit on that? What does organic nitrogen mean? AFAIK, the organic form is not accessible to plants as it is a too complex compound, just like organic carbon. It needs to be broken down to more simpler, inorganic, forms like NH3/NH4 before the plant can use that. The fertilizer nitrogen is indeed inorganic. Although plants prefer NH3 and NH4 before NO3.


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## FishFlow (Oct 4, 2011)

Vacation. I've been cutting light over 1/2. (3-4hr/day) 10+ days away, *Most* everything is doing fine. 3-4 day vacation is no problem.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

danielt said:


> You do realize that EI is a specific fertilization scheme with substances in different ratios than PPS-Pro right?
> 
> EI is not a scheme of dosing ANY fertilizer. It is a scheme for dosing the specific fertilizers specified by the recipe. PPS-Pro contains other compounds as well. You can easily unbalance the aquarium by dosing PPS-Pro per EI.
> 
> My two cents.


Ratios make no difference, at all for aquatic plants.

The ONLY thing that makes a difference is when ONE nutrient becomes a limiting growth factor, this is called Liebig's Law of the Minimum.
There's a good reasons why it is an Agricultural plant science law.
The entire ratio business is one of the most abused concepts in algae and aquatic biology.

EI is simply a method to rule out limitations, much like using Hoagland's Modified nutrient solutions for plant research. For aquatic plant water column growth studies, this is typically reduced by 5x(See Geoff 1966). EI simply uses water changes(hardly something I ever came up with) and dosing based on teaspoons rather than making ppm's and mls. Turns out no one needs this supposed balance of ferts, unless they are actually trying to limit growth.

If you wish to limit growth, then use a holistic approach, not just nutrients. Otherwise you end up wasting light and CO2, that's not "balance".

If you want a lower end control, then a pure non nutrient solution using no ferts. Then EI. All other fert dosing routines will fall somewhere between those two ranges. 

Now if you have trouble mastering CO2, or have too much light, not enough ferts/CO2, then you will have trouble. In fact, EVERY dosing routine has examples of problems, algae, many other issues, so balance is not due to the dosing method. Likewise, we also find cases where dosing various routines also works well. Obviously, there's a lot more to balance than the mere dosing routine. And the lion share of growth and problems folks encounter in the hobby are light and CO2.

Effort should be placed there, not worrying over the dosing routine.
Now if you want to REALLY evaluate CO2 and light effectively, you would need to make nutrients non limiting, thus independent of other variables.(this goes back to Liebig's law, but applies now to light and/or CO2)

This teaches aquarist much more and hones their CO2 and light adjustment skills. If you can adjust those 2 parameters, then nutrients are extremely easy and adjustable over a massive range.Why learn to balance just ferts, when you can learn to adjust all 3 factors that define growth rates? 
If that was the goal, then PPS is no different than PMDD that came 8 years before and is virtually identical.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

danielt said:


> Can you elaborate a bit on that? What does organic nitrogen mean? AFAIK, the organic form is not accessible to plants as it is a too complex compound, just like organic carbon. It needs to be broken down to more simpler, inorganic, forms like NH3/NH4 before the plant can use that. The fertilizer nitrogen is indeed inorganic. Although plants prefer NH3 and NH4 before NO3.


Organic nitrogen is referring to nitrogen derived from organic sources such as fish waste, uneaten food, decomposing plant matter, etc. High levels of organic nitrogen are usually a sign of poor water quality due to lack of maintenance, etc.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

I'll try EI with my next water change. I'm not looking for crazy high growth, currently things are growing (not algae) I'd like to learn the art of making my reds pop like some of you and the art of taming algae 

Thanks for the insight on organic nitrogen vs the nitrogen we add.
I will play with the ratios based on my load of fish and I'll watch the water quality. 
As for vacations - I can barely trust my roommate to not over feed the fish (first hand experience), much less not over dose the ferts over a week...

*Did you have to increase your CO2 when you started EI? *


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## farrenator (May 11, 2011)

I am not sure if this was meant for me, but if so, yes, I am aware of what you mention. I used the same fertilizers under the PPS Pro scheme as under EI. 

What I meant to say was that I started with PPS Pro, added a bit more Nitrate and Phosphorous as I observed plant growth and green spot algae. When I arrived at the point where adding more didn't help, I looked at my spreadsheet and realized I was dosing ppms that were very close to a 1/2 dose of EI for the amount of water in my tank. 



danielt said:


> You do realize that EI is a specific fertilization scheme with substances in different ratios than PPS-Pro right?
> 
> EI is not a scheme of dosing ANY fertilizer. It is a scheme for dosing the specific fertilizers specified by the recipe. PPS-Pro contains other compounds as well. You can easily unbalance the aquarium by dosing PPS-Pro per EI.
> 
> My two cents.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

sundragon said:


> I'll try EI with my next water change. I'm not looking for crazy high growth, currently things are growing (not algae) I'd like to learn the art of making my reds pop like some of you and the art of taming algae
> 
> Thanks for the insight on organic nitrogen vs the nitrogen we add.
> I will play with the ratios based on my load of fish and I'll watch the water quality.
> ...


more than likely u will. if u add appropriate amounts of nutriets for the amount of light u have, the demand for co2 increases.. 
likewise if u have enough co2 and light increases, nutrients demand increases

just remember light drives the need for both co2 and nutrients. the less u have of light, the less u need of everything else

PHOSPHATES WILL NOT CAUSE ALGAE
so if u start dosing more ferts and notice algae, its because the demand for co2 has increased and ur plants are responding positively for the amount of light they have but u need more co2 to continue the growth properly and effectively


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## farrenator (May 11, 2011)

sundragon;[B said:


> Did you have to increase your CO2 when you started EI? [/B]


I started injecting CO2 when I started dosing the PPS Pro scheme. I did not increase CO2 when I started dosing EI because I was already blasting the CO2 at a fairly high rate - don't ask me what my bubble count is, I have no idea - too fast.

To get back to Tom's point about limiting factors: under high light, CO2 and ferts are limiting factors. With CO2 and livestock you can only inject CO2 up to the point where it is non lethal. That is your end point for CO2. After that you need to balance ferts and light. Given that the tropical fish most of us keep are very tolerant of a wide range of ferts you have a lot of wiggle room there. Concentrate on light and you are mostly there.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

You should not relate need for co2 with nutrients, it's related to light.

We add co2 to allow the plants to process nutrients if the light is strong enough to demand more than what can be dissolved in the water from the atmosphere.

Nutrients will be processed anyways if there is no co2 and the light is strong, but instead of been processed by the plants it will be algae... Starting with GSA IME.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

@ Tom

You will have to excuse me for I'm still adjusting to the mindset of NOT considering nutrients in excess a problem in the aquarium. I'm yet to make the leap of faith into EI dosing regime 

I was referring to the PPS-Pro formula which has different ratios. It will limit some of the substances at some point if he's dosing a solution. I didn't used PPS-Pro in an EI fashion and I'm out of my league here 

@ OP

The order as I see it is: Light -> CO2 -> Ferts

Increased light will cause CO2 limiting before ferts. This is because plants have stored resources and will use them in case they're not CO2 limited. Ferts will need to be increased at some point as you will see problems with growth once you're fert limited.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

I really appreciate all the information you guys! This making a lot more sense now.

I am not increasing light so CO2 shouldn't need to be increased - I actually don't want to touch my light levels because it's at a balance now where I get very little spot algae on glass and almost no other algae. I wonder if going from PPS-Pro to EI will make a difference. 

*Better question: What are some of the things I should look for to see if it's actually making a difference (aside from more green)?*


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Spot algae in my experience is usually the fist indicator of lack of co2 or excess of light, however you want to call it. Decrease one or two hrs and clean up, in two weeks you will see if its still a problem.

When I was studying my tank I realized that taking full tank shots was the only way to see if there was a change on growth over a month and one picture every week same day. 
Change only one thing at the time and observe for at least two weeks otherwise its impossible to determine what is going on. Compare your tank pictures.

The only way to know if something is wrong is by doing it right at some point. By this I mean to learn a technique that will ensure you get maximum growth and plant health, a fool proof way to do it is by providing more than enough of everything except light. What is everything? Plant mass, nutrients, co2, good substrate. Light then would only be an accelerator of growth rate.

Afaik this is why Tom came up with EI. Non limiting factors, Liebig's law. Correct me if I'm wrong Tom. 

When you achieve to experience that kind of gardening then you will have something to compare with, otherwise you will never know. From there you can adjust to your needs.

First, master EI with enough co2. How to make sure you don't gas your fish? 
Proper surface agitation, no surface scum... In other words Good atmospheric gas exchange. 

Temperature plays a huge part in all this, specially because warmer water doesn't hold gasses very well, leading to more fluctuations of O2 and CO2 that are known to cause algae blooms and even fish/invert suffocation.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

pejerrey said:


> Spot algae in my experience is usually the fist indicator of lack of co2 or excess of light, however you want to call it. Decrease one or two hrs and clean up, in two weeks you will see if its still a problem.
> 
> When I was studying my tank I realized that taking full tank shots was the only way to see if there was a change on growth over a month and one picture every week same day.
> Change only one thing at the time and observe for at least two weeks otherwise its impossible to determine what is going on. Compare your tank pictures.



*Edit: *There's very little spot algae but your point is taken - Would *increasing* the CO2 change the spot algae?

It's interesting you bring up lighting - I started a thread http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=195925&highlight= a while back because my Eleocharis Parvula was dying out slowly. Without going into the details - I had my lights to about 33" from the substrate - I had no algae issues so the recommendation was to drop the lights to about 24" to increase the PAR. I started dropping the lights 1-2" and waiting a week. I'm at 26.5" - that when I started noticing a few spots of algae on the glass. I've kept it at that height - the hair grass is growing - I don't mind it growing slower, I just don't want an algae explosion because everything else is growing well.

FWIW - I just dosed CSM+B a earlier today and my Nymphaea maculata has started to bubble O2. Never seen it do that, not sure if the two are linked


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Dont crank the co2. Just slowly increase it. Make adjustments over time. Plants will show u when they are happy.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

sundragon said:


> *Better question: What are some of the things I should look for to see if it's actually making a difference (aside from more green)?*


Side shoots are a good indicator IMO. If there is no limiting factor the plant will develop more mass by means of side shoots.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

So it's been a week of EI - I've had to do water changes every 3 days because I was treating the tank with meds but I stuck to the EI dosing. 

For the first time since I set up the tank the plants pearled O2 - really cool to watch - the only thing is the two times it happened was the day I dosed traces (Plantex CSM +B)

Can anyone tell me what's going on? I'd like to understand the process better.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Ur plants are hungry!!! and when they get what thye need they will grow

once u dose ei for abou 2 weeks plants will have absorbed and stored a fair amount of nutrients, they have "fat" cells much like we do

i'll take a stab and say that co2 usage has increased as well u may want to watch for signs of deficiency and algae in the next few weeks.. plants store carbon as well and it sounds like its getting used nicely


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

More water changes often help a lot if the CO2 is poor also. As mentioned, watch for new side runners/shoots etc.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> ...i'll take a stab and say that co2 usage has increased as well u may want to watch for signs of deficiency and algae in the next few weeks.. plants store carbon as well and it sounds like its getting used nicely


Will do! I upped the CO2 bps a bit when I started EI - it's getting ~ 25% more CO2.



plantbrain said:


> More water changes often help a lot if the CO2 is poor also. As mentioned, watch for new side runners/shoots etc.


Thanks Tom, I'm keeping the 50% weekly water change regimen, should i be doing it mor frequently if algae appears? 

This is fun! 

Cue side shoots appearing in the last week:


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## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

I would like to jump in here, and not hijack the thread or anything, but this seems like a good place to ask this:

If my NO3 levels are at ~30 ppm daily without dosing, is it ok to assume that these organic sources are bioavailable to the plants? I have lots of fish and I tend to feed heavily, and when dosing EI according to Wet's calculator and others, I end up with way more NO3 than I would like at the week end WC. If I can trust API test kits, it's deep maroon.

Also, what's the thoughts on the best test kit for nitrates these days? Someone mentioned the Salifert kits. Are they still considered useable?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

m00se said:


> I would like to jump in here, and not hijack the thread or anything, but this seems like a good place to ask this:
> 
> If my NO3 levels are at ~30 ppm daily without dosing, is it ok to assume that these organic sources are bioavailable to the plants? I have lots of fish and I tend to feed heavily, and when dosing EI according to Wet's calculator and others, I end up with way more NO3 than I would like at the week end WC. If I can trust API test kits, it's deep maroon.
> 
> Also, what's the thoughts on the best test kit for nitrates these days? Someone mentioned the Salifert kits. Are they still considered useable?


yes the organic sources are bioavailable to the plant. bacteria do perform that job function. they will eventually make ferricphosphate bioavailable over time even..
given enough time they generally make any form of nutrient available to plants 

api test kits are fine if u calibrate them with known amounts.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

sundragon said:


> Will do! I upped the CO2 bps a bit when I started EI - it's getting ~ 25% more CO2.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You cannot over do water changes, but you need to dose after.
If there is an issue, I'll do 2-3x a week 70% etc.

But unless the CO2 is addressed correctly and carefully, you will keep suffering.

This has nothing to do with the fert dosing.
And we see nasty algae in every single type of fert dosing.
We also see good nice planted tanks as well. So this suggest that light/CO2 are the main issues, not ferts.


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## smiller (Dec 4, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> yes the organic sources are bioavailable to the plant. bacteria do perform that job function. they will eventually make ferricphosphate bioavailable over time even..
> given enough time they generally make any form of nutrient available to plants
> 
> api test kits are fine if u calibrate them with known amounts.


Does that mean that if you have a 20+ reading of NO3 that you should dose potassium sulfate instead of potassium nitrate? Do you get the same benefits without the added NO3?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Before you do anything about the NO3 levels, make sure you check to make sure the test kit/method is correct to ebgin with.

Make a reference standard, then and only then..............do you decide whether to add/dose less KNO3 etc.


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## smiller (Dec 4, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Before you do anything about the NO3 levels, make sure you check to make sure the test kit/method is correct to ebgin with.
> 
> Make a reference standard, then and only then..............do you decide whether to add/dose less KNO3 etc.



I did the calibration already and my kit is very close. I estimate my nitrates to be in the 40-50ppm range after a 50% water change and EI dose of KNO3 on Sunday. I know that 50 is really not a "dangerous" level but I thought maybe the K2SO4 (which I have never dosed before) was to use if your nitrates were at the level that mine are.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

U may not even need k2s04 if u dose gh booster, and ur potassium levels in ur tap water are significant


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## smiller (Dec 4, 2011)

I do not dose for GH, my levels are already high for that and for KH as I am in a very hard water area. Potassium level is usually around 5 per my calibrated test kit, but that is the reading I am getting from my previous fert dosing of KNO3 and KH2P04.


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## smiller (Dec 4, 2011)

Whoops....that is my phosphate that is 5.  I don't know my potassium reading.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

U may not need it. Try not dosing and see if u get a deficiency


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Quick update and advice request.

*EDIT: String algae, not hair*
Today I noticed the beginning of string algae on some moss and one of plants. I have been dosing to EI up till now.

I raised CO2 when I started EI dosing - 2.5bps to 4bps. 

My instinct made me raise the light 2" higher to reduce PAR till I figure out what's going on. In the past this did away with the hair algae and it didn't come back.

Any advice on how to proceed? Raise CO2? Reduce EI?


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Just an update:

Wow... Just wow... 

The switch from PPI to EI has made the plants grow quite a bit faster and fuller, there is a lot more pearling of O2 to the point it streams to the surface. Things are finally turning redder - Still haven't mastered that yet 

I had a couple of friends who don't own aquaria tell me the tank looks so much more lush than it's ever looked. They asked me what I did.

The switch to EI wasn't without bumps. There was a moment I had spot algae and string algae reappear after they hadn't appeared in months. A slight adjustment to light and CO2 did away with both. I've watched small patches of BBA melt away.

Thanks for your advice. I'm staring at the tank as I write this, it's never looks so good.


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## dkraft12 (Sep 26, 2016)

sundragon said:


> I'll try EI with my next water change. I'm not looking for crazy high growth, currently things are growing (not algae) I'd like to learn the art of making my reds pop like some of you and the art of taming algae
> 
> Thanks for the insight on organic nitrogen vs the nitrogen we add.
> I will play with the ratios based on my load of fish and I'll watch the water quality.
> ...


I had my friend do my ferts and feed while i was on vacation. I made individual packets of food and ferts and labeled them by day.. All he had to do was dump it in the tank and nothing else. Good way to make sure inexperienced people won't overfeed.


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