# Algae diagnosis please!



## gBOYsc2 (Dec 4, 2010)

What type of algae is this? I started to appear recently but the tank in general is pretty new setup. I broke down a 50g about a month ago maybe 3 weeks only. I have 48w T5HO, pressurized co2 that reads spot on the double drop checker and I dose EI. I have also started to get some GDA if that could be a helpful indicator at all. Any help is greatly appreciated. 


























If you can tell me what this is would you happen to know what is the cause of this? Thanks.


----------



## msawdey (Apr 6, 2009)

to me.. it doesnt even look like algae.. reason i say this is it looks like a root system... how long have you had your tank? was their anything growing in the area previous to the tears... it looks like you may have the bba under and around the tears.. but i could be mistaken by the picture..

In my experience BBA is caused by excess phosphates.. first i would do a decent size water change.. and possibly get a phos test kit.. next.. take down your photo period an hour or two.. what is it currently... its more than likely caused by excess nutrients.. EI is no where a perfect model.. (i found out the hard way by sticking to it for a month).. you dont need near the phos that EI prescribes.. check online for an EI dosing calc.. and there are calcs that will tell you where you lie on the EI dosing scale for your tank size


----------



## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

msawdey said:


> to me.. it doesnt even look like algae..
> 
> In my experience BBA is caused by excess phosphates..


Time to pull up a chair and make some popcorn... this should get interesting.


Along with disagreeing about your BBA/phosphate claim I am curious as to why you even bring up BBA if the picture the OP posted is not algae? 

I think it looks most like staghorn. Definitely not BBA.

algae guides...

http://www.aquariumalgae.blogspot.com/

and

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm

Never assume that your CO2 and circulation are perfect. When you start having algae problems CO2 is the best thing to focus on. EI dosing should remove nutrients as a source of problems and allow you to focus on the CO2/light intensity relationship.


----------



## Eden Marel (Jan 28, 2010)

Me thinks its the beginning of Clado invasion, cuz it kinda looks like my Clado?


----------



## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

My po4 is always between 4 and 6ppm. No BBA in any tank. Lol, I do overdose on micros and macros a bit.


----------



## msawdey (Apr 6, 2009)

captain_bu said:


> Time to pull up a chair and make some popcorn... this should get interesting.
> 
> 
> Along with disagreeing about your BBA/phosphate claim I am curious as to why you even bring up BBA if the picture the OP posted is not algae?
> ...


haha.. as these discussions always are interesting.. i was basing my assumption of it being a root system on the first two photos.. but now taking a closer look at the third pic.. you might be right.. 

as far as BBA and phosphate.. that is purely coming off my experience over the last few weeks. Naturally, placing more nutrients in a tank is going to allow for plants/algae to flourish.. key works here are excess and plants AND algae.. when i was dosing EI... i was testing everything daily.. my nitrates and potassium levels were normal but my phosphate levels skyrocketed and progressively got higher as the algae continued to spread.. so clearly uptake was not what was needed and to make up for it the tank had a serious BBA bloom... i cut out the phosphates, but kept my nitrate/K/ and plantex csm dosing the same, within a week i noticed a serious reduction in the BBA.. ive scoured the forums for information on this.. but i did not find much.. 

thus the disclaimer that this is my personal experience.. the reason i brought up BBA.. is thats what i looked like to me sitting below the tears.. i retract that earlier statement


----------



## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

msawdey

Your BBA problem was most likely caused by low (limiting levels of) CO2 not high phosphates. Phosphates help drive CO2 uptake... when you limit phosphates (as you did to "fix" your BBA problem) the plants make better use of the limited CO2 provided and do better... healthy, thriving plants do not get algae so as plant health increases algae becomes a non-issue. If you provide non-limiting CO2 AND nutrients there will not be an algae problem from any of the nutrient levels. 

Too many people dose high (non-limiting) levels of nutrients including carbon (CO2) and have no algae problems so high levels of nutrients cannot be definitively blamed for algae problems. If high levels of nutrients caused algae then everyone who had high levels of nutrients would have algae and that simply isn't the case.

Cause and effect are very hard to prove when it comes to planted tanks.


----------



## msawdey (Apr 6, 2009)

captain_bu said:


> msawdey
> 
> Your BBA problem was most likely caused by low (limiting levels of) CO2 not high phosphates. Phosphates help drive CO2 uptake... when you limit phosphates (as you did to "fix" your BBA problem) the plants make better use of the limited CO2 provided and do better... healthy, thriving plants do not get algae so as plant health increases algae becomes a non-issue. If you provide non-limiting CO2 AND nutrients there will not be an algae problem from any of the nutrient levels.
> 
> ...



i think the only thing we will def agree on is the last thing you said.. 

But saying that high dosing of nutrients can not cause algae is not a true state. If you have too much (excess) of nutrient.. you can and will get a form of algae outbreak. Algae is naturally a filler in any eco system that uses up any nutrients which are present. It all comes back to uptake by the primary organisms, in our case, our plants. 

I am not a biological scientist, but i have taken many macro and micro biological classes throughout my career in undergrad and graduate school. Along with many chemistry classes. A fundamental principle though out nature is balance. And balance definitely applies to fish and aquatic keeping. Us plant growers probably at the highest difficulty of that spectrum.

Fact of the matter. My statement was merely something i noted from my experience with dosing EI. There are too many variables that contribute to definitively place blame on one part of keeping. Lighting, filtration, water movement, tank temperature tank location in regards to sunlight, and of course dosing all play into it. But through trial and error, that's what i noticed. My Co2 is pressurized and my KH remains very stable throughout the week. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/articles/Algae-Common-Types/3/

This is just an exmaple:

this post clearly states (has been on plantedtank.net for quie a while) 
*Hair Algae*


Very common on plants and rocks. Can be many different colors but is usually green or greyish. They are long thin strands sometimes growing 3-4 inches long. *Normally due to overdosing of liquid fertilizers, especially ones high in iron and phosphates. *

Im not sure if im misreading.. but thats what i understand


----------



## msawdey (Apr 6, 2009)

btw.. srry for the post jacking.. i hate when others do it..


----------



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I don't want to cloud this here too much, but too much light, and not enough co2 are much more likely the cause than phosphates. The blaming of phosphates is far outdated. In tests tanks I have ran as high as 10ppm of phosphate and never had a problem that could be traced to phosphate. 

TOO much light, not enough co2 and often TOO LITTLE other nutrients are usually the cause. 

The test kits most people use at home are horrible to use to form a conclusive cause for something. 

Co2 in our tanks is almost always lower than we think it is. Flow in many tanks is very low in proportion.


----------



## msawdey (Apr 6, 2009)

over_stocked said:


> I don't want to cloud this here too much, but too much light, and not enough co2 are much more likely the cause than phosphates. The blaming of phosphates is far outdated. In tests tanks I have ran as high as 10ppm of phosphate and never had a problem that could be traced to phosphate.
> 
> TOO much light, not enough co2 and often TOO LITTLE other nutrients are usually the cause.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with that statement about the lights and even the co2.. what im challenging is that excess nutrients can cause algae. When i had the problem and caved for a phosphate tests.. my ppm was 5 times what you just stated.. i previously had reduced photo period to no avail by 2 hours to 5, did a 2 day blackout that did little to help.. I was dosing my 50 gallon on the low end of the recommended EI dosing for my size. I battled the algae for 3 months.. stopped dosing phosphates and the problem went away..


----------



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

The only way to get 10 times what I stated is that you are dosing too much phosphate. As in far far too much. A measurement or number is messed up somewhere. 

at this dosing:

40-60 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

You'd be getting between 6 and 7 ppm per WEEK of phosphate, about 2ppm each dose. If your plants are using ANY(and they should be, if they are growing...) and you are doing 50% changes, it should not accumulate above 3-4 ppm at a time. 

The goal in EI is around 1-2 ppm, but I prefer to have mine higher than that. 

In your tank. .125 Teaspon(1/8) KH2PO4 should provide about 2.5 ppm per dose of PO4. 

To get 100 ppm of PO4 you'd have to use 27 GRAMS of KH2PO4 in one dose. 


I think without a known calibration point, your PO4 tests have little value.


----------



## gBOYsc2 (Dec 4, 2010)

Wow thanks for all the replies non thread jackers. 

I can tell you for sure it is not BBA. That is out of the question. It definitely looks more like the clado that Eden Marel suggested. Mine just isn't as dense as that. I will try to pull up a larger clump I just didn't wanna pull up any HC. Now to think of it the HC is the only thing that is from the 50g tank and it had little mats of that clado stuff so I am thinking this has got to be it.

It also is definitely not a root system. It is only growing on the gravel near the HC. And after spending 3 hours planting the HC ever so carefully I can 150,000% assure you that it is not the roots of the HC.

I see the replies about the imbalance of light and CO2. Would it be recommended that I up the CO2 and fertz a little bit? The light is pretty intense 48w T5HO on a 20g tank. The tank is also quite heavily planted with the only parts unplanted is the parts that the HC hasn't filled in yet.

I also forgot to mention flow. I am not assuming I have perfect flow. I do have just slightly under 10x gph flow. Will post a fts.

Again, thanks for the replies. I appreciate the helping me get to the bottom of this.











On a side note to the dosing replies. I dose 1/4 tsp kno3 and 1/16 tsp k2po4, csm+b.


----------



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

If it is possible to raise your lights, do it. That is a LOT of light. do you have a drop checker? Up your co2, but only do it slowly and when you are going to be there to watch the fish for a few hours.


----------



## Dempsey (Oct 27, 2009)

Looks like clado..... Could it be staghorn??


----------



## Eden Marel (Jan 28, 2010)

gBOYsc2 said:


> Wow thanks for all the replies non thread jackers.
> 
> I can tell you for sure it is not BBA. That is out of the question. It definitely looks more like the clado that Eden Marel suggested. Mine just isn't as dense as that. I will try to pull up a larger clump I just didn't wanna pull up any HC. Now to think of it the HC is the only thing that is from the 50g tank and it had little mats of that clado stuff so I am thinking this has got to be it.



Mine is dense cuz its been in there for a few months and I'm too lazy to do anything about it, lol. So I'm still gonna say its Clado, yours is just the beginning. And when you do pull yours, if it has this rough feel to it, it just might be clado. All the other algae in my opinion feel slimy and soft.

But anyways, the clado is in my 5.5g tank because I have 27w of light, no co2 and no ferts. Other than that I think that is my only algae problem I have in this tank. At least no other problem has been spotted yet.

Oh yea, I like your tank!


----------



## gBOYsc2 (Dec 4, 2010)

over_stocked said:


> If it is possible to raise your lights, do it. That is a LOT of light. do you have a drop checker? Up your co2, but only do it slowly and when you are going to be there to watch the fish for a few hours.



Unfortunately it is not possible for me to raise the light. It is on legs and I don't have a suspension system. I do have a drop checker you can barely see it in the picture. I have the cal aqua labs double drop checker and it always reads exactly the color it should so I think i'm good for co2, not sure though. Would it sometimes be recommended to be a tad bit yellow? If I do up the CO2 would it be recommended to also up the fertz a bit? I also forgot to mention the tank gets an 8 hours photoperiod. I don't know if this matters at all.

I'm a noob and don't know how to quote several people at a time. 

*Eden Marel* - I am really beginning to think it's the clado. What I had in my 50g before I downgraded it to the 20g it looked exactly like the pic of yours. By the quick google search I see that most sites say this algae favors the exact condition plants do. yikes!
Thanks for the compliment!


----------



## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

just in case if you miss this:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/f...658-there-chart-too-much-nutrients-water.html


----------



## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

I only have gotten clado once and it was years ago but I don't remember it branching like the picture of the piece in your palm... then again I didn't check any of the individual strands after I pulled it from the tank.

Clado can be easily pulled out in clumps and feels coarse and dry... can you pull out a clump and post another pic?

If you can't raise your lights you could try putting some window screen between the lights and the tank to reduce the intensity.

A green drop checker only means you are in the ballpark, there is no reason you can't tweak the CO2 a bit, just do it slowly and only when you are going to be around to watch the fish. A tiny increase every few days is the safest method.


----------



## willbldrco (Mar 24, 2007)

I believe I am fighting Cladophora on HC and among other plants too (along with some green beard algae which is growing on some larger pieces of my Eco Complete substrate). I did a 5 day blackout a few weeks ago in conjunction with spot treating with Excel to a double dose level for my 90g tank. Once the blackout ended, I jacked up my CO2 to a yellow-yellow-green drop checker level.

After several weeks, it's much better than it was - hardly any is growing within the HC - but I haven't cured the problem. I still see Cladophora growing at the base my Blyxa japonica bunches (where I suspect current is a problem) and among a patch of dwarf hairgrass. I've been manually pulling it from the Blyxa, and spot treating with Excel in the dwarf hairgrass. Excel does a good job of killing it in the hairgrass, but it melts my Blyxa, so I have to manually remove it there - *sigh*. The green beard algae is still growing on some larger pieces of substrate, but at a lower rate.

I continue to do more water changes than usual (every 5 days rather than once a week) and have stuck with my IE dosing regime. I think I'll cut back on my lighting period by an hour too. It really sucks that Cladophora can thrive in good plant conditions. Makes kicking its butt so hard! 

All the plants are doing very well - HC is spreading, and stems are growing rapidly. I suspect the extra CO2 is helping there.

Anyway, I hope my experiences helps you in your fight - good luck in beating this!! 

Will


----------



## Fahnell (Jan 20, 2011)

it will bet on Cladophora.Take it easy and do not overreact


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

It is clado... Smell it to make sure.. It has a sweet musky smell.

The only way to get rid of it is to physically remove any trace of it. Blackouts and chemicals won't do it...

Let it grow out a bit so you can grab it. The plus side is it's pretty easy to take out. If it's too tangled in the plants then make a severe trim.


----------



## willbldrco (Mar 24, 2007)

*Pics of Cladophora*

I just pulled a patch of Cladophora out of my tank and thought I'd post these pictures so folks could identify it. Note that it's very "fluffy" once it's dried off on a towel.


























By the way, I agree with other postings that it has a unique smell... It's umm.. strange. 

One good thing about this stuff is that it's easily to remove in clumps from most spots in the aquarium. The exception being small-leaved carpet plants like HC. I can get a grip on it, but when I pull, it takes up the HC as well. It's too tangled together with the tiny HC leaves and stems to easily slide out like it does from other plants. I've finally just given in and ripped up the HC with the Clado and dumped both in the trash. 

One more thing: This algae will attach to rocks in the substrate and pull up substrate pebbles attached to its algae "web". I've been shocked at how much substrate a few strands of this stuff will lift off the bottom when I remove it. The stuff is strongly adhered and supports alot of weight! I throw the attached substrate away with the algae tho - don't want return bits of the algae to the tank!
FYI,

Will


----------

