# Eliminating BBA tank wide



## Jah410 (Feb 11, 2019)

Hi guys,

I've got a BBA outbreak that's not particularly dense anywhere but instead just a tuft here or there spread throughout the tank. I've reduced my photoperiod and ordered some purigen to lower organics in the water as well. I've also just dosed slightly over the recommendation of excel as I've heard it can help kill it. 

I thought afterward I should probably seek advice here before proceeding. Is there a way to eliminate and tank wide infestation? I.e. Not trying to target every spot individually.

Should mention I have Amanos in the tank as well.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Short term: one dose of 1ml Excel / gal of tank water. This should kill all of it within 3 days (it will turn orange). Can be done weekly. 

Long term: healthy plants. Start with having the right amount (PAR) and quality (PUR) of light for your CO2 level.

If you want us to provide opinions on your entire setup, then post as much of the following info as possible:

- Light (make & model): ideally, PAR and PUR reading at the substrate and photoperiod?
- CO2 setup (if any) and, if you inject CO2, what is the CO2 ppm level and how is it measured?
- Current NO3, PO4, GH, KH, pH and TDS readings?
- What you are dosing (product and quantity) and how often?
- Substrate type and how long has it been in place?
- What is your filter setup?
- Cleaning regimen (filter and water change frequency and amount)?
- Circulation: surface rippling and are all plants gently moving from top to bottom?
- What is your water source and do you use a water softener?


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## Jah410 (Feb 11, 2019)

Deanna said:


> Short term: one dose of 1ml Excel / gal of tank water. This should kill all of it within 3 days (it will turn orange). Can be done weekly.
> 
> Long term: healthy plants. Start with having the right amount (PAR) and quality (PUR) of light for your CO2 level.
> 
> ...


 @Deanna 

Thanks for the response! Here is the info you requested

So just to make sure, the short term solution is to add 1mL excel/gallon and that will be safe for my shrimp and plants? Also, if I've already dosed 5mL, should I perform a water change before dosing your recommended amount? 

My plants are, SR, rotala (colorata, rotund, Enie, AR mini, pearl weed, and dwarf hairgrass.

Light is a Nicrew Deluxe. Here is the thread where someone provided me the part ratings for the light. 
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1306339
My photoperiod is currently 8 hours. Looking into a ramp dimmer to reduce intensity. 

CO2- DIY CO2 (citric acid) - 30+ppm based on drop checker (lime green/yellowish)

Nitrate ramps from 5 to 25 ppm throughout the week with EI dosing.
Phosphate (NA)
GH 8-10
kH 4 
pH 7.6 degassed
TDS (NA) 

Dosing - Thrive (all in one) 3X per week at 2mL per dose (recommended for high light tanks)

Substrate - Eco complete + sand (in place about 1 year but been rescaped)

Filter setup - HOB (CO2 outfitted into intake)

Cleaning - 50% water change weekly, media rinsed in change water, filter cleaned as needed

Circulation - just filter, don't see visible movement of plants

Water source - Well water (water softener), recently been lowering natural nitrate levels by filling tub with floaters and using that water (nitrate sink method).

Let me know if anything else could help!


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Jah410 said:


> So just to make sure, the short term solution is to add 1mL excel/gallon and that will be safe for my shrimp and plants? Also, if I've already dosed 5mL, should I perform a water change before dosing your recommended amount?


Yes. Just wait a day after your 5ml dose. Excel only lasts a day, at most.

The Nicrew line is typically a medium PAR light, but this new Nicrew Deluxe BrightLED, which I haven’t seen before, is far above their typical line if - IF - that one linked data point is correct. Is it possible to get corroborating data?

I’m not a fan of DIY CO2. My experience with it is that it is very inconsistent and this results in problems with plant health and increased algae. Perhaps another member that is more confident in DIY CO2 will comment. Your pH degassed is 7.6. Is that leaving a sample of tank water sitting out for several days? What is your fully gassed pH? 

IF that PAR data is truly that high and IF your CO2 consistency meets my expectations, you would be expected to fight algae on an on-going basis.

You use water from a water softener and your GH is 8? That doesn’t make sense. You should be close to zero with a well-functioning water softener.

I would add an additional pump to help with circulation. Koralia’s are a good line.

Dosing and maintenance look fine. It would be good to know your PO4 levels.


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## Jah410 (Feb 11, 2019)

Deanna said:


> Jah410 said:
> 
> 
> > So just to make sure, the short term solution is to add 1mL excel/gallon and that will be safe for my shrimp and plants? Also, if I've already dosed 5mL, should I perform a water change before dosing your recommended amount?
> ...


 @Deanna 

So in the interim I tried spot dosing with another 5ml excel and it's been 2 days and it's not responding at all. Prior to using excel, I did the same with HP and it didn't turn orange and die either. Is this normal? Seems tougher to kill than most suggest with these methods. 

Light - unfortunately, that's the only par data I've been able to track down for this light. The same guy has performed similar videos on various other lights so if those line up with your expectations for those lights then maybe that could offer some support?

pH - 7.6 is left for several hours while running an aerator into a cup. 

Typically I find my pH around 6.2-6.4 when gassed fully. 

DIY CO2 - I've never quite understood the issue with diy co2. If the co2 level reaches and stayes at or above 30ppm each day, how does it differ from pressurized? Genuinely curious. 

gH - sorry I forgot to add that I add seachems gH supplement to my water before each change to help my shrimp health. 

Considering getting the nicrew dimmer pro which would allow me to limit my intensity on a day cycle. Do you think this would be a good idea to help combat alage? Currently amazon appears to be out of stock so waiting on them to return.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Seriously get dimmer, being able to step your light intensity so that you say have 25% intensity early morn/late afternoon, 45% mid morn/mid afternoon and say 65-85% across 3-4hr midday stretch was game changer for me. I hated being stuck with 4-6hrs of light on my tank, that lasted about 4wks. Remember with lower intensity light early AM and PM you can narrow your co2 time range also. Plants to me always behave more normally if you simulate a true natural daylight cycle, nature ramps up light across day. 

Before say 9:30 AM close to 40% of light (mostly red/yellow) is reflected off surface of water. Only a dim blue glow penetrates water surface. This is type of lighting ramp plants have spent eons adapting to. Between say 9:30-10:30 light and red/yellow content ramps up considerably, reverse that same ramp in afternoon hrs.

This graph only shows ramp up across morning hrs, flop it side to side and you’ll get how light behaves ramping down across afternoon, in most tropical or sub-tropical environments cloud cover or rain storms will build across afternoons further diffusing light in those periods.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Jah410 said:


> So in the interim I tried spot dosing with another 5ml excel and it's been 2 days and it's not responding at all. Prior to using excel, I did the same with HP and it didn't turn orange and die either. Is this normal? Seems tougher to kill than most suggest with these methods.


Excel kills hair algae, of which BBA is included, at the correct dose (we are assuming that it is correctly identified as BBA). BBA is, perhaps, the toughest version of hair algae to tame. Excel (glut) potency can be affected by various aspects of a given tank. I have found that adjusting the dose to achieve the ideal effect is necessary sometimes, but 1ml / gal is usually enough. So, I suggest that you start there and wait a week. If you have a UVS, turn it off during treatment day. You can also run a test to find sensitivity for your particular tank. Fill three glasses with tank water and put a leaf having the BBA on it into each glass. Then add Excel at the rate of 1ml/gal, 2ml/gal and 3ml/gal to each glass to see if more than 1ml/gal may be needed. I have gone to 3ml/gal without harm. However, if you move above 1ml/gal, you may want to prepare your tank as per these guidelines: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/1234042-hair-algae-consuming-moss-hc-advice.html#post10762025



Jah410 said:


> Light - unfortunately, that's the only par data I've been able to track down for this light. The same guy has performed similar videos on various other lights so if those line up with your expectations for those lights then maybe that could offer some support?
> 
> Considering getting the nicrew dimmer pro which would allow me to limit my intensity on a day cycle. Do you think this would be a good idea to help combat alage? Currently amazon appears to be out of stock so waiting on them to return.


As @DaveKS mentioned, a dimmer can make a world of difference in terms of both ramping and final intensity, which I also believe helps reduce ‘shock’ to plants (I have no data to support this). It allowed me to maintain full intensity for a solid 4-5 hour period and lower intensities (for viewing) at an equivalent time without algae issues. Be aware that many dimmers (I have yet to have one that didn't) lower intensity by about 8% even though the dimmer is set to 100%. However, I have no experience with the Nicrew dimmer.

If any other readers can corroborate the video, regarding the Nicrew PAR readings, it would sure be interesting to know that this is available.



Jah410 said:


> pH - 7.6 is left for several hours while running an aerator into a cup. Typically I find my pH around 6.2-6.4 when gassed fully.
> 
> DIY CO2 - I've never quite understood the issue with diy co2. If the co2 level reaches and stayes at or above 30ppm each day, how does it differ from pressurized? Genuinely curious.


"If the co2 level reaches and stayes" is the operative statement. Playing with it for a year or so, I could never hold a precise level and then there is the chasing after it every week or so to refill the concoction. As you say, if you can hold 30ppm, every minute of the day, you are good to go. Apparently, one can buy DIY systems now with regulators, but they are nearly the price of low-end pressurized systems, so I’m not sure why one would do that.



Jah410 said:


> gH - sorry I forgot to add that I add seachems gH supplement to my water before each change to help my shrimp health.


Now it makes sense. Most of us would recommend not using softened water due to sodium issues. The harder your water, the more sodium will get through the softener (most of it is washed out during re-charging). However, if your well water is that bad, then stick with the softened water. I ran my tank on softened water for decades without noticeable issues, which is not to say that it could have been better by using un-softened water (didn’t know any better).


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Deanna said:


> Short term: one dose of 1ml Excel / gal of tank water.



Just to be clear. Have you actually tried this 1ml Excel / gal of tank water with shrimp to know it is safe? Have you confirmed it is safe for even more sensitive shrimp species like Blue Tigers ( for instance).


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## en7jos (Jun 7, 2020)

@DaveKS - interested in that sunlight reflection vs. time of day chart you posted.



DaveKS said:


>


Looks like it might have come from a bigger post / article? If so, could you point me to it please?

Thanks, James


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## blackpearl (Jun 8, 2018)

DaveKS said:


> Seriously get dimmer, being able to step your light intensity so that you say have 25% intensity early morn/late afternoon, 45% mid morn/mid afternoon and say 65-85% across 3-4hr midday stretch was game changer for me. I hated being stuck with 4-6hrs of light on my tank, that lasted about 4wks. Remember with lower intensity light early AM and PM you can narrow your co2 time range also. Plants to me always behave more normally if you simulate a true natural daylight cycle, nature ramps up light across day.
> 
> Before say 9:30 AM close to 40% of light (mostly red/yellow) is reflected off surface of water. Only a dim blue glow penetrates water surface. This is type of lighting ramp plants have spent eons adapting to. Between say 9:30-10:30 light and red/yellow content ramps up considerably, reverse that same ramp in afternoon hrs.
> 
> This graph only shows ramp up across morning hrs, flop it side to side and you’ll get how light behaves ramping down across afternoon, in most tropical or sub-tropical environments cloud cover or rain storms will build across afternoons further diffusing light in those periods.


Is there a dimmer/timer that you would recommend? I've been looking at smart dimmers that you can program on an app, but it's hard to tell if any can be programmed to change intensity throughout the day.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

en7jos said:


> @DaveKS - interested in that sunlight reflection vs. time of day chart you posted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe it was from some article about underwater photography and how time of day effects transmission of light as well as spectrum.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

blackpearl said:


> Is there a dimmer/timer that you would recommend? I've been looking at smart dimmers that you can program on an app, but it's hard to tell if any can be programmed to change intensity throughout the day.


I’m using cheap little nicrew dimmer pro and mingdak dimmers. Bad side is no battery backup for clock, it will remember all your steps and intensity settings but when power goes out the clock has to be reset. 

These units look very interesting as well.

https://www.amazon.com/LFJNET-Progr...5H0519W82S8&psc=1&refRID=621KVXKME5H0519W82S8


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## Jah410 (Feb 11, 2019)

@Deanna Thanks for the helpful article. Today I intend on adding the excel at 1mL/Gal as suggested and see how that goes. If I don't see improvement, I will attempt the experiment you suggest and see what dosage is required.
@DaveKS Definitely intend on getting a dimmer as you suggested! As I mentioned, the Nicrew pro that you suggested seems to longer be up on amazon. I wonder how long that will last/if they intend on restocking it. I see they still offer that mingdak version. Do you prefer the nicrew to this one?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Just to be clear. Have you actually tried this 1ml Excel / gal of tank water with shrimp to know it is safe? Have you confirmed it is safe for even more sensitive shrimp species like Blue Tigers ( for instance).


My personal experience is only with CS and Amano's. I recall reading about other varieties doing fine with this dosing, but do not recall which varieties. They were all here on TPT, so someone could probably locate them with a search.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Deanna said:


> My personal experience is only with CS and Amano's. I recall reading about other varieties doing fine with this dosing, but do not recall which varieties. They were all here on TPT, so someone could probably locate them with a search.


 Oh, okay.
Well, I know that @somewhatshocked who has decades of experience with sensitive shrimp like PRL's does not recommend daily Excel dosing. I am almost certain he would say that this amount of Excel should never be given with sensitive shrimp.
I dont know now--- maybe I misunderstood and just thought it was with sensitive shrimp- not all shrimp. 

But, I do not use any Excel in any of my tanks with shrimp-- even neo's. 

That is why I was so surprised that you said it was safe to do this 1ml/per gallon in shrimp tanks. :surprise:


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

To each their own. But... 

I wouldn't even use 1ml of metricide per 50gal with shrimp. I've had it kill pretty much every kind of invertebrate kept in the planted tank hobby. Amano included. But Neos and Crystals are especially sensitive to it. 

Also breaks down surface film that shrimp feed on - their primary diet. If used regularly, the tank will 100% not be an ideal environment for shrimp or any other detritus-feeding critter. They may survive, sure. But if you want to try to create the best environment you can for shrimp? Metricide/Excel is going to be a detriment.

Mileage varies, of course, but even with dilution? It's a risk I do not take.

P.S. Yes, this an alarmist take. Meant to highlight a common worst case scenario that shrimpkeepers tend to experience on a fairly regular basis.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Oh, okay.
> Well, I know that @somewhatshocked who has decades of experience with sensitive shrimp like PRL's does not recommend daily Excel dosing. I am almost certain he would say that this amount of Excel should never be given with sensitive shrimp.
> I dont know now--- maybe I misunderstood and just thought it was with sensitive shrimp- not all shrimp.
> 
> ...


Yes, IME, daily (relentless) dosing of Excel much above Seachem-recommended levels is hard on many things in a tank so, when I did use it for plant growth in a low-tech setup, I found that I was safer below the recommended levels and that it did improve my plants' ability to withstand more light than is generally advisable for low-tech setups, but this sensitivity is a function of several parameters in a tank. 

I believe that the single-only dose, as an algaecide, at high levels, is the reason that we don't see the typical problems that might happen with the constant pounding day-after-day of Excel in recommended doses for plants. Excel/glut doesn't stay around more than about 8 hours and has less potential for problems when pH is below 7. A further cushion for livestock can be provided by increasing gas exchange, since glut is a reducing agent, but I have yet to see any breathing stress up to about 3ml / gal.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

somewhatshocked said:


> To each their own. But...
> 
> I wouldn't even use 1ml of metricide per 50gal with shrimp. I've had it kill pretty much every kind of invertebrate kept in the planted tank hobby. Amano included. But Neos and Crystals are especially sensitive to it.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for answering this--- 

It seems I did understand you perfectly


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

In a perfect world, yes, it's going to dissipate in a matter of hours. But in an enclosed environment, metricide doesn't just disappear as quickly or as regularly as you'd think. And harmful, potentially deadly issues pop up down the line in terms of invertebrates. Issues often manifest in shrimp days or weeks later - everything from neuro development/impairment to inabilities to molt or grow proper exoskeletons. 

Some say it can be used safely with invertebrates. That may be the case in some circumstances. I say, after nearly ~20 years with the stuff, that it's best used in tanks that don't contain inverts.


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## en7jos (Jun 7, 2020)

blackpearl said:


> Is there a dimmer/timer that you would recommend? I've been looking at smart dimmers that you can program on an app, but it's hard to tell if any can be programmed to change intensity throughout the day.


I've been using this on my small shrimp tank. Works really well. You can program 8 (from memory) changes in intensity throughout the daily cycle.
https://www.lazada.sg/products/yoth...r-controller-black-i294294230-s492821749.html

I bought shipped direct from China, but sure you can get locally / via internet wherever you are.

Cheap, simple and works really well. Just check that connectors are the correct size for your light and power supply of course!


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

en7jos said:


> I've been using this on my small shrimp tank. Works really well. You can program 8 (from memory) changes in intensity throughout the daily cycle.
> https://www.lazada.sg/products/yoth...r-controller-black-i294294230-s492821749.html
> 
> I bought shipped direct from China, but sure you can get locally / via internet wherever you are.
> ...


Yes, that looks just about like Nicrew Pro just with a different logo. The little mingdak timers on amazon are essentially same thing, just a different case design. Nicrew seems just a slight bit sturdier build but nothing substantially noticeable.


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## Jah410 (Feb 11, 2019)

DaveKS said:


> en7jos said:
> 
> 
> > I've been using this on my small shrimp tank. Works really well. You can program 8 (from memory) changes in intensity throughout the daily cycle.
> ...


 @DaveKS

I ordered the mingdak dimmer. 


Some questions about ramping light to minimize algae and maximize plant growth. 

1. Why do you never use 100% intensity? Also, should I use 100% intensity if I'm trying to maximize coloration of my rotala and AR Mini (more so the former)?

2. I'd like to aim for about 10 hour lighting periods. Should I just break that into 3rds and ramp up, hold steady and ramp down with relatively even portions? 

3. When would you turn co2 on in this cycle? Should it span the whole lighting period or just when above a certain threshold?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

somewhatshocked said:


> Also breaks down surface film that shrimp feed on - their primary diet.


Are you referring to the periphyton?


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

somewhatshocked said:


> To each their own. But...
> 
> I wouldn't even use 1ml of metricide per 50gal with shrimp. I've had it kill pretty much every kind of invertebrate kept in the planted tank hobby. Amano included. But Neos and Crystals are especially sensitive to it.
> P.S. Yes, this an alarmist take. Meant to highlight a common worst case scenario that shrimpkeepers tend to experience on a fairly regular basis.


I am not convinced that the dosage, 1 ml per 50 gal, which is less than 0.1 ppm Glut, is sufficient to harm shrimp.

According to Seachem, there is no harm to fish and shrimp following its directions: “On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 US gallons). Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 US gallons) daily or every other day.” 5 ml per 10 gal is equivalent to 2 ppm Glut. 

I have compiled toxicity tests of Glut from multiple sources as follows. Accordingly, grass shrimp will be harmed at 41 ppm, sunfish 10 ppm, algae 1 to 1.8 ppm, and daphnia 0.35 ppm. Therefore, 2 ppm as recommended by Seachem is minimal to suppress algae, and double to triple that amount won’t harm fish and shrimp. 

Toxicity of glutaraldehyde
96h acute Bluegill sunfish LC50 = 11.2 mg/L
Bluegill sunfish NOEC = 10 mg/L
48h acute Oyster larvae LC50 = 2.1 mg/L
96h acute Green crabs LC50 = 465 mg/L
96h acute Grass shrimp LC50 = 41 mg/L
48h acute Daphnia magna LC50 = 0.35 mg/L
Daphnia magna NOEC = 0.32 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Selenastrum capricornutum ILm = 3.9 mg/L
Algal inhibition Selenastrum subcapitata IC50=1 to 1.8 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Scenedesmus subspicatus	EC50 = 0.9 mg/L
Bacterial inhibition Sewage microbes IC50 = 25-34 mg/L
96h O. mykiss (Trout hatch rate) IC50 = 1.82 mg/L
96h C. dubia (Daphnia reproduction) IC50 = 4.7 mg/L

*EC=Effective concentration; IC=Inhibition concentration; LC=Lethal concentration;
NOEC=No observed effect concentration

I don’t do daily dosage, but dose 5 ml per 10 gal or 2 ppm after weekly 75% water change to suppress algae. The half life of Glut is 10 hours, so by the end of the day there is hardly any residual left. My fish has been subject to as much as 8 ppm short term bath as I dosed the full 5 ml amount before filling up the tank.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Tiger15 said:


> I am not convinced that the dosage, 1 ml per 50 gal, which is less than 0.1 ppm Glut, is sufficient to harm shrimp.
> 
> According to Seachem, there is no harm to fish and shrimp following its directions: “On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 US gallons). Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 US gallons) daily or every other day.” 5 ml per 10 gal is equivalent to 2 ppm Glut.
> 
> ...


Do you have shrimp?
Could you tell us what type/types of shrimp you have and describe what concentrations/frequency of Excel/of dosage you have used with your shrimp?


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

I have a coralux controller on my DIY rapidled fixture

I too have been battling with BBA in the beginning however I feel like the battle is being won now. I realized I kept adjusting my CO2 too much throughout the day and since have kept it consistent. I put it at a level where the plants are pearling away, the drop checker is green, and the fish are not gasping.

The lights I have also adjusted to only have a 2 hour ramp up time in the beginning and then 4 hours of strong daylight. shortening the highest light has been helpful as well but still allows viewing throughout the day. 

all new growth is BBA free and the one that was at the bottom and growing on the substrate is staying the same or dying due to h2o2 treatments. 

PS. be careful with h2o2, it killed my riccia, micro pelia, and it has impacted my Helanthium 'Vesuvius'


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Tiger15 said:


> I am not convinced that the dosage, 1 ml per 50 gal, which is less than 0.1 ppm Glut, is sufficient to harm shrimp.


Pretty sure he was giving an extreme example of how loathe he would be to use it in a shrimp tank at all. After years of trial and error I also won't let it anywhere near my own shrimp tanks. I try to stay out of glut arguments, it simply is what it is. It has its place in this hobby for algae control and I've found nothing that kills BBA (or HA) more effectively. I have used gallons of the the stuff over the years and used to buy Excel by the 4 liter bottle. My biggest qualms with it have nothing to do with the product, really. My issues are that it's marketed by some companies as "liquid CO2" when it's decidedly not, and most hobbyists overdose it. Neither of these are remotely the fault of glutaraldehyde. I am of the belief that it and dwarf shrimp are not a good mix though. I could offer nothing but anecdotal evidence, but I've had enough firsthand anecdotal evidence over the last 10+ years keeping shrimp to have come to a strong conclusion. And that is that algae control is best done with kid gloves in a shrimp tank, in my opinion.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> Do you have shrimp?
> Could you tell us what type/types of shrimp you have and describe what concentrations/frequency of Excel/of dosage you have used with your shrimp?


The tanks I dose Glut regularly have no shrimp, but sensitive invert Nerite snails which are not affected. I have Neo shrimp bowls too but I rarely dosed Glut because they have no bba, only green thread algae (spirogyra) Glut is ineffective against. According to Seachem narrative, shrimp are not affected at the dosage recommended. Surprisingly, toxicity tests show that grass shrimp are more tolerant of glut than bluegill sunfish, 41 versus 10 ppm LD50, respectively. Certainly, grass shrimp are not Neo, and Bluegill not tetra, so their tolerance of Glut vary. Shrimp are known to be much more sensitive to heavy metals (copper, zinc) than fish and human which are present in our plumbing system and explained why shrimp cannot be kept in some tap water.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Seachem claim shrimp are not impacted yet hundreds of shrimpkeepers through the past couple decades on this forum and others have had countless problems.

I use the heck out of it in non-shrimp tanks. And in my outdoor containers. But have had far too many instances of deaths, reproduction issues, other problems - as have others (the search function is your friend) when it comes to shrimp. Wouldn't consider myself a beginner in any stretch of the imagination. 

If you absolutely must use it in a shrimp tank, I suggest you be as careful as possible and focus on spot treatment when you can. Accompanied by water changes. Lots more surface agitation than usual, too, maybe with an air stone if you don't have return pipes you can reposition for a while.

Again - to each their own. If you want to use it? Use it. If you want to take precautions that shrimp nerds like me recommend to be on the safe side? Take them.

One other thing - the only snail I've ever killed with metricide/glut/Excel were Tylos. Nerites are far hardier than most give them credit for. This afternoon I had to rescue a Nerite _from the wall_ behind its tank. Little bugger slimed its way down the stand, across several inches of carpet and 2-3 feet up the wall. There were eggs all over the outside/back of the tank. It's still chugging along in the tank like everything is fine.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Tiger15 said:


> I am not convinced that the dosage, 1 ml per 50 gal, which is less than 0.1 ppm Glut, is sufficient to harm shrimp.
> 
> According to Seachem, there is no harm to fish and shrimp following its directions: “On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 US gallons). Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 US gallons) daily or every other day.” 5 ml per 10 gal is equivalent to 2 ppm Glut.
> 
> ...



Not to pick knits, but as someone that has had to design and present these studies, it doesn't say that it starts to harm grass shrimp at 41 ppm, it kills half of the population at that concentration. I think that there is a significant difference between killing half a population and harming an organism.

As far as my own experience, I have dosed approximately 1 mL/gallon for over 2 weeks without losing amanos, but that system probably dissipated the glut faster than normal (UV sterilizer, continuous water change).


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Jah410 said:


> @DaveKS
> 
> I ordered the mingdak dimmer.
> 
> ...


Co2 I would just start 1hr before light starts ramping up and shut off 1hr before light goes completely off and fine tune from there. But yes CO2 consumption will be less in the dimmer light periods.

As far as intensity, I’ve optimized my light for my tank and viewing needs. It’s also a Nicrew, less powerful than yours. It’s on a little 7gal bowfront, which is basically same footprint as a 5gal just with a bowed out front glass, no co2. For my plants, rotala rotundifolia green and red root floaters, 4hr midday section at about 60-70% with 4hr ramp up/down gives me a 12hr photoperiod. Plants couldn’t care less if I gave them [email protected]% or [email protected]%. It’s all about balancing light, nutrients and carbon availability to your tanks needs and uptake. What I or anyone else does are just grey area guidelines, you have to zero in and fine tune all those factors to your tank(plant types, plant mass, livestock).

You’ll do that by checking co2 drop and figuring concentration, monitoring nitrates and phosphate across week, knowing what your dosing and hitting your iron target, knowing signs of say K or Mg deficiency or sometimes signs of nutrient toxicity. 

I’ve pretty much optimized mine so plants and their water cleaning function provide a optimized environment for my betta and neon/ember tetra. Plants grow so fast, even without co2, I have to prune and thin them out about every 7-10 days or they would take over whole tank. Red root floaters get all co2 they need from air, rotala actually has very minimal requirements for co2 and dosing so I dose at about 1/3 strength with thrive added to distilled water and use that to top off for evaporation throughout week. Feed my fish and then top off water to feed my plants, almost every day. 

Plants use waste from feeding along with ferts to grow new tissue. Then when I prune and thin out plants I’m actually removing nitrates, phosphate etc from tank that are embedded in those plants tissue. I actually change very little water, 10% at most. 

I’ve hit a equilibrium where I very seldom test anything. Just prune out plants, lightly dose/feed and change a very small amount of water and just add a few oak or almond leaves about every 2mo. But that’s my tank and my choice to grow plants in support of the environment I provide fish. That doesn’t sound like where your going with your tank.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

I don’t think that glut kills the periphyton. My understanding of the periphyton is that it is an extremely rugged matrix of multiple organisms and is very difficult to kill. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I would be very interested in it, as I had been looking for a good way to subdue the periphyton last year. As many of you know, it serves as one of the major feeding and anchoring bases for algae.

As far as anecdotal evidence that I can offer, it only relates to the single-dose approach I mentioned above. I see no evidence that the periphyton is harmed at all by up to 2ml Excel per gallon, one-time dosing. I have a well-nurtured and balanced ramshorn population. If this single, high dose Excel treatment were to kill the periphyton, then my snails would have had a severe reduction in their food source, yet there are no dead snails after these infrequent treatments.

Regarding the possibility that regular, daily recommended dosing levels kill the periphyton, I can offer no experience there. Although I did use Excel for 10+ years in a low-tech setup, I didn’t try making any observation regarding this. I suppose that it’s possible that glut might disrupt the formative aspects of the periphyton, but it is only speculation on my part.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

My understanding was that, like the term "biofilm," periphyton refers to a rather complex and sometimes varied group of microorganisms. Algae, microbes, bacteria, cyanobacteria, would pretty much all be part of its makeup, no? It would stand to reason that different ecosystems would have different organisms that make it up but I'd expect Excel to kill or at least diminish most of those. If I'm off on my understanding of what composes periphyton, please help me clear that up, because these blanket terms that might mean one thing in an Ecology 101 class and another in an aquarium!


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> My understanding was that, like the term "biofilm," periphyton refers to a rather complex and sometimes varied group of microorganisms. Algae, microbes, bacteria, cyanobacteria, would pretty much all be part of its makeup, no? It would stand to reason that different ecosystems would have different organisms that make it up but I'd expect Excel to kill or at least diminish most of those. If I'm off on my understanding of what composes periphyton, please help me clear that up, because these blanket terms that might mean one thing in an Ecology 101 class and another in an aquarium!


Take a look at this posting by @jeffkrol (the entire thread is a good read and reminds me that I have to update it with what I found from the UV-C test)


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Thanks, Deanna. Please link the thread, I started going through his post history but... that's a lot of digging to do!


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Not to pick knits, but as someone that has had to design and present these studies, it doesn't say that it starts to harm grass shrimp at 41 ppm, it kills half of the population at that concentration. I think that there is a significant difference between killing half a population and harming an organism.
> 
> As far as my own experience, I have dosed approximately 1 mL/gallon for over 2 weeks without losing amanos, but that system probably dissipated the glut faster than normal (UV sterilizer, continuous water change).


LC50 is 50% lethal concentration. NOEC is no observed effect concentration. What you want is NOEC which is always less than LC. For Bluegill, the difference is 10 versus 11.2 ppm. For grass shrimp, NOEC is not available but it’s reasonable to assume 50% factor of safety or 20 ppm is the NOEC, still a large number hard to exceed in practice.

If you have culled shrimp, you can test it out in a separate tank whether Seachem recommended dosage will harm shrimp. I take Seachem’s word and published toxicology test results in good faith. 

1 ml per gal is 4 ppm, twice the initial dosage or 10x daily recommended by Seachem. You just proved that your shrimp can tolerate very high dosage that most shrimp keepers are afraid to try.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Tiger15 said:


> LC50 is 50% lethal concentration. NOEC is no observed effect concentration. What you want is NOEC which is always less than LC. For Bluegill, the difference is 10 versus 11.2 ppm. For grass shrimp, NOEC is not available but it’s reasonable to assume 50% factor of safety or 20 ppm is the NOEC, still a large number hard to exceed in practice.
> 
> If you have culled shrimp, you can test it out in a separate tank whether Seachem recommended dosage will harm shrimp. I take Seachem’s word and published toxicology test results in good faith.
> 
> 1 ml per gal is 4 ppm, twice the initial dosage or 10x daily recommended by Seachem. You just proved that your shrimp can tolerate very high dosage that most shrimp keepers are afraid to try.


I understand the difference in the terms. I am not certain if one can make the extrapolation between LC50 and NOEC. I also don't know much about grass shrimp, especially if they should be taken as a representative case for shrimp in aquariums. Representative species are usually selected in the context of release into the environment.

The observation I related doesn't prove anything, it is simply one anecdote. And it certainly doesn't invalidate all of the other observations provided by others.

This has nothing to do with trusting or distrusting Seachem's data. I don't think that they would knowingly falsify toxicity data because doing so has harsh consequences. It just simply isn't the right data to fully make the assertion that Excel is always safe for all shrimp at recommended dosing.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Thanks, Deanna. Please link the thread, I started going through his post history but... that's a lot of digging to do!


Sorry, I thought I did do that. Haste makes waste! Here it is:

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/1300741-biofilm-impact-upon-algae-plant-health.html#post11281193


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Thanks, Deanna. Please link the thread, I started going through his post history but... that's a lot of digging to do!


Yea, kind of embarrasing.. 


Tiger15 said:


> LC50 is 50% lethal concentration. NOEC is no observed effect concentration. What you want is NOEC which is always less than LC. For Bluegill, the difference is 10 versus 11.2 ppm. For grass shrimp, NOEC is not available but it’s reasonable to assume 50% factor of safety or 20 ppm is the NOEC, still a large number hard to exceed in practice.
> 
> If you have culled shrimp, you can test it out in a separate tank whether Seachem recommended dosage will harm shrimp. I take Seachem’s word and published toxicology test results in good faith.
> 
> 1 ml per gal is 4 ppm, twice the initial dosage or 10x daily recommended by Seachem. You just proved that your shrimp can tolerate very high dosage that most shrimp keepers are afraid to try.



OK decided to do some cyphering (feel free to correct it)
This is going to be a bit on the rough side and will be using a large-ish dose of Met15 as an example..
First off I found 2 weights.. 1.06g/ml or specific gravity of 1.004 (MSDS)
Choose sp.
1.004g @ 2.6% (assume v:v)
So Met15 contains 26.1mg/ml 

Using a 40gal and a rate of addition of 1ml/gal


1044mg/40ml diluted by about 136 liters roughly..
7.67mg/L or 7.67ppm..




> Toxicity:
> Glutaraldehyde: LC50 fathead minnow 10.8 mg/L/96 hr; EC50 daphnia magna 0.69 mg/L/48 hr; EbC50
> green algae 2.64 mg/L/72 hr.
> Persistence and degradability: Glutaraldehyde is readily biodegradable
> ...



Thing is, as stated numerous times, that glut has a very short life in a tank.
But that said, plenty of unintended consequences are possible.






> EbC50
> green algae 2.64 mg/L/72 hr.



BTW; That's 50% decrease in biomass..

Over the years I only have 2 fish deaths attributed directly to that sort of concentration.
1 a tetra w/ horrible columnaris and on the same day a Golden algea eater who I "believe" was in a direct glut dump..
Because of that I have now used a different system of adding it after dilution (water top off) AND not doing it after lights out..
Also do every other day as to not have the concentration, as unlikely as it already is due to degradation, stay level or high..


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Yea, kind of embarrasing..
> 
> OK decided to do some cyphering (feel free to correct it)
> Using a 40gal and a rate of addition of 1ml/gal
> ...


Your calculation is almost correct
1 ml / gal of 1.5% Glut Excel = 4 ppm
1 ml / gal of 2.6% Glut Metricide = 4*2.6/1.5 = 6.9 ppm by proportionality calculation.

The half life of Glut in aqueous solution is 10 hours, so hardly any residual is left after 24 hour and no accumulative effect if dose daily. 

Using 1 ml per gal of either Excel or Metricide is higher than Seachem recommended initial dosage after WC. It’s more than enough to suppress algae, but still substantially below LD50 for grass shrimp and bluegill, 41 and 10 ppm respectively.

Here is my derivation of Excel recommended dosage expressed in ppm

1 gal = 3785.41 ml
1.5% Glut = 1.5*1000000/100 = 15,000 ppm
Initial after WC: 5ml of 1.5% Glut in 10 gal = 15000 * 5 / (10*3785.41) = 2 ppm
Normal daily: 5ml of 1.5% Glut in 50 gal = 15000 * 5 / (50*3785.41) = 0.4 ppm


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Pretty sure he was giving an extreme example of how loathe he would be to use it in a shrimp tank at all.


Yep. But some folks like to go bananas with semantics despite knowing fully well what a person means. All for the sake of being contrary.

Someone brought me up so I merely chimed in with generalities about why I'm cautious with shrimp.

.....


When I say film (biofilm), I mean the slime-y coat that forms on every surface in a tank. Not one organism or group of organisms. It's not just microorganisms but everything that summarily gets trapped in the film - from food bits to general detritus upon which shrimp feed. The poop n stuff, to be more exact and scientific.

Excel can/tends to burn off the film on plant & other surfaces. (That allows some plants to more easily absorb things)

It may not be noticeable at first but if you've got shrimplets in a tank, it can wreak havoc in many circumstances. Even a single dose. Especially if you have primitive species or mosses, crypts, vals, the sort of plants that are typically kept in shrimp tanks. Excel can/will melt them when it hits them. So hidey holes _and_ primary food sources for the smallest shrimp are gutted in one fell swoop. Depending upon the tank and circumstances, you could wipe out an entire generation of shrimp or cause no harm at all. Nothing is a guarantee and there are too many variables in play from tank to tank to make any claim about an algaecide's impacts with absolute certainty. Particularly when it comes to toxicity, survival rates, problems, successes, et al.

All of these issues are searchable here and on other forums. Relatively common knowledge among shrimpkeepers.

Note: I would not compare glass shrimp to other, more complex species. Some popular shrimp kept in the hobby these days tend to die over something as trivial as a couple degrees in water temperature. Temporary stresses can lead to dropped egg clutches, interrupted or failed molts, all kinds of stuff. It's why we're careful with the foods we feed, fertilization regimens, water flow, types of filtration. I suspect someone serious about keeping shrimp isn't going to consider using Excel, so much of this is moot.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

somewhatshocked said:


> Seachem claim shrimp are not impacted yet hundreds of shrimpkeepers through the past couple decades on this forum and others have had countless problems.
> .


I just read this thread and contrary to your belief that there is no consensus among shrimp keepers that Excel used as directed can harm shrimp. 

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...rameters/163266-flourish-excel-vs-shrimp.html


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

If you want to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, that's fine. Say so and move on. But don't ascribe words to people that they did not use.

Re-read what I have written. It's beyond clear what I meant. Never once said there is "consensus" about anything. It's more than clear to the average forum reader.

In fact, here's what I wrote in that very link you just shared - way back in February 2012:



> I think the moral of the story is this: If you have any concerns about Excel and shrimp? Don't use it. Because you can easily over do it without meaning to.


The same holds true today.

Additionally, while there is no consensus - because there's very little consensus about anything in this hobby - that doesn't mean hundreds or thousands of shrimpkeepers haven't had terrible experiences with Excel. Don't cherry pick. Especially when you don't have experience with sensitive shrimp species.

Stop trying to stir the pot or start drama. No one here has time or desire for that. And it's an a-hole move to derail the OP's original concerns. I've read through your other posts and see you do this sort of thing with regularity. Stop.



Tiger15 said:


> I just read this thread and contrary to your belief that there is no consensus among shrimp keepers that Excel used as directed can harm shrimp.
> 
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...rameters/163266-flourish-excel-vs-shrimp.html


P.S. Not trying to be a jerk but come on. No need to drag literally every discussion on this forum into the gutter.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

I’m not contradicting you for the sake of argument. When you claimed that “ hundreds of shrimpkeepers through the past couple decades on this forum and others have had countless problems.” it sounds like there is consensus that using excel is necessary problematic. I did a quick search on this forum and the first thread came up reveals that there are as many who found no problem as problematic, so there is no consensus even though you haven’t used the word.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Good. You admitted I didn't use the term. Thank you for that.

But I also neither implied it nor tried to start nonsense with you or others. That doesn't fly here. There is widespread knowledge within the shrimping community that it's not worth the risk involved. You can take it or leave it, up to you. That's how life works, as well. Take it or leave it.

To other members: When you see this particular kind of behavior - starting drama where there should be none - in the future, please report it or reach out to me directly. There is never a reason to be a jackass to other members. 

Look to other people like @jeffkrol, who has spent years & years teaching newcomers about lighting in ways that are supremely helpful. And members from long ago like @sewingalot, who helped make Mattenfilters a popular thing in the US among shrimpkeepers a couple decades ago. Follow their lead. They don't attempt to stir the pot when someone contradicts them. Don't be contrary & start crap with other members because it serves no point.



Tiger15 said:


> I’m not contradicting you for the sake of argument. When you claimed that “ hundreds of shrimpkeepers through the past couple decades on this forum and others have had countless problems.” it sounds like there is consensus that using excel is necessary problematic. I did a quick search on this forum and the first thread came up reveals that there are as many who found no problem as problematic, so there is no consensus even though you haven’t used the word.


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