# Rotala deficiency issues please helpp



## Saadshaikh1215 (Jan 8, 2020)

Hello guys I'm new to the forum
I'm am having a huge issue with my rotala rotundifolia green and h'ra
As u can see in the pictures
The leaves are getting thin and transparent on the lower top area of the plant

Per week values
Nitrate 25ppm
Potassium 40 ppm
Phosphate 6 ppm
Co2 30 ppm
Iron 0.35 ppm
High lighting
Medium fish load
Amazonia aqua soil 8 months old
All types of micros using tropica specialized nutrition and seachem full line (N,P,K,trace,iron,comprehensive)
Using tap water dechlorinated dgh 4 ph 6.4 overall

But I dont seem to understand this deficiency it's been there from a really long time
The only algae issue that keeps popping up is green spot algae

U might hav to zoom in abit on the plant mid section

Can anyone please help me to understand this issue
Only algae present is green spot algae


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Saadshaikh1215

Welcome to TPT!

I too had trouble with Rotala species, repeatedly. Then last spring I heard a speaker at the Aquatic Gardeners Convention last spring where he discussed his several year journey to growing Rotala. You can find it here, on another well know forum. Basically it seems that Rotala, and a few other genus in the family Lythraceae have difficulty growing with high levels of nutrients in the water column. It is suspected it is the nitrogen but I don't know if that has been confirmed.

Being a skeptic, and retired, I decided to try for myself. I purchased some tissue culture Rotala Vietnam / H'ra and put it into the tank where I was dosing EI. At best it just sat there but there was extreme stunting of the leaves and no growth worth mentioning. So I set up a tank with a montmorillonite clay substrate over Osmocote Plus root tabs. Here are the results, judge for yourself.

This is what the stems looked like when I moved them from EI to substrate fertilization on 12/1/19 (Rotala Vietnam / H'ra = #2):









And this is what they look like as of 1/5/20, and they have been trimmed once


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I’m away from my computer typing on my phone with cold hands so I’ll keep it short and simple 

Unfortunately many rotala species for various reasons do not like high fertility such as EI, rotundifolia and H’ra both in my personal experience looked just like yours time and time again in higher fertility tanks, yet grow bonkers in leaner fertility tanks. 




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## Quesenek (Sep 26, 2008)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Saadshaikh1215
> 
> Welcome to TPT!
> 
> ...


So with my rotala rotundifolia 'green' the new growth is fine, but the old growth develops necrotic spots in the leaves.
Could this also be a symptom of too much nitrogen in the water column?
My dosage of EI is close to the OP's so it might be something similar that is going on in their tank.

Edit:
Based on your expertise, would you recommend lowering KNO3 dosage down to something like 5-10ppm/week while keeping the other nutrients the same, or would that not help much in our situation of the necrotic leaves?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Saadshaikh1215
> 
> ...Basically it seems that Rotala, and a few other genus in the family Lythraceae have difficulty growing with high levels of nutrients in the water column. It is suspected it is the nitrogen but I don't know if that has been confirmed.


Seattle, I think you inadvertently left something out of your statement. The rotala only had real issues if the KH was high.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Quesenek said:


> So with my rotala rotundifolia 'green' the new growth is fine, but the old growth develops necrotic spots in the leaves.
> Could this also be a symptom of too much nitrogen in the water column?
> My dosage of EI is close to the OP's so it might be something similar that is going on in their tank.
> 
> ...


Hi @Quesenek,

A picture might help, however most of the time round necrotic holes in older leaves indicates a lack of potassium. This could be caused by either insufficient potassium available in the tank or an excess of another nutrient such as magnesium, calcium, nitrogen, or phosphorus (phosphate) inhibiting the uptake of potassium.

I have dropped the my dosing of most of my macro-nutrients by 50% in my non-substrate enriched tanks.


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## Quesenek (Sep 26, 2008)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Quesenek,
> 
> A picture might help, however most of the time round necrotic holes in older leaves indicates a lack of potassium. This could be caused by either insufficient potassium available in the tank or an excess of another nutrient such as magnesium, calcium, nitrogen, or phosphorus (phosphate) inhibiting the uptake of potassium.
> 
> I have dropped the my dosing of most of my macro-nutrients by 50% in my non-substrate enriched tanks.


Thanks for the reply, the holes are exactly like this image from a thread a while back thread and after while they look exactly like the OP's pictures where they turn transparent.
I'll drop my macro dosage by 50% and see what happens after a month or two.


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## Saadshaikh1215 (Jan 8, 2020)

So 
From my current dosing levels
N 25ppm
P 6ppm
K 40ppm
Fe 0.35 ppm
Gh 4 
Ph 6.4
Kh is low around 4-5 due to aqua soil

Wht should I turn it too
Also the only algae I hav is green spot algae inside my lily pipe and close to the gravel floor
As far as I have read that a sign of low phosphate 

Can some enlighten me abit more on this

So what nutrient levels would u recommend for me now

And after lower just a side note should I add root tabs instead and lower levels, if so wht levels of water column ferts


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> Seattle, I think you inadvertently left something out of your statement. The rotala only had real issues if the KH was high.


Hi @Asteroid,

I believe it was a species other than Rotala where he showed and discussed issues with using 7.0 dKH water vs RO water (about 51 minutes into the talk). At about 47 minutes into the presentation he discussed 'hard water' with no water column nutrients and minimal issues with the plants in the tank including my nemesis Cuphea anagalloidea.


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## Saadshaikh1215 (Jan 8, 2020)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Asteroid said:
> 
> 
> > Seattle, I think you inadvertently left something out of your statement. The rotala only had real issues if the KH was high.
> ...


Hi so wht values would u recommend me.to dose my water column and should I increase my gh from dgh 4 to 5 or 6

And also.if I turn to root tabs (if better) wht nutrients should I be at then approx


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Asteroid,
> 
> I believe it was a species other than Rotala where he showed and discussed issues with using 7.0 dKH water vs RO water (about 51 minutes into the talk). At about 47 minutes into the presentation he discussed 'hard water' with no water column nutrients and minimal issues with the plants in the tank including my nemesis Cuphea anagalloidea.


Hey @Seattle_Aquarist

I can only go by what I read and from my own experience. This is from the Kill thread relating to Rotala:



Saxa Tilly said:


> Pick your poison? Ha. EI vs high KH? Based on what I've learned in the last few years, *I'd choose EI over high KH any day.
> Lots of people grow Rotala and Ammannia well under EI.* No matter how much it might upset your world view, lots of people grow these plants under high nutrient levels. I'm not interested in proving them wrong! I am interested in the whys and hows of their results.
> I continue to learn new mechanisms by which high KH (bicarbonates) interfere with good growth in many plants. *95% of plants are tolerant of high KH but Lythraceae do not seem to tolerate high KH well at all...in the presence of high nutrients.*


This has been my experience with Rotala as well in high dosing water column enviornments.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Saadshaikh1215 said:


> So what nutrient levels would u recommend for me now
> 
> And after lower just a side note should I add root tabs instead and lower levels, if so wht levels of water column ferts




Everyone is quick to jump on “which nutrients should I tweak” or “what is deficient” 

Unfortunately again, certain plants just don’t work in various tank conditions, and in this case if all your other plants are growing well it might be best to cut ties with rotala and find plants that enjoy the soup you serve. 

You can try to cut NO3 back and see wha happens with the Rotala. Like o said before, the only success I’ve had with it are lean water column ferts. Ive never tried it with a nutrient rich substrate. 


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

@Quagulator

The OP posted this in the General forum as well, in case your interested.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...iciency-issues-please-helpp.html#post11293911


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Saadshaikh1215 said:


> Hi so wht values would u recommend me.to dose my water column and should I increase my gh from dgh 4 to 5 or 6
> 
> And also.if I turn to root tabs (if better) wht nutrients should I be at then approx


Hi @Saadshaikh1215,

I would not suggest increasing the dGH, I see no evidence of a calcium or magnesium deficiency in your pictures above. Why not start by cutting back your NO3 dosing so your water has 5 ppm - 10 ppm of NO3 for two weeks and see how the Rotala responds? If the other plant species start to suffer then you may have to make a choice which one(s) to keep.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> This has been my experience with Rotala as well in high dosing water column enviornments.


Mine too.

Very soft water and rich nutrient environment.

Have quite a few Rotalas doing quite well.

That being said, very difficult to extrapolate much from that, as there are so many variables between tanks. 

Now as to to the pics above.......my take is that it might be fert related......and then again, it might be something completely different. Could be light/CO2/maintenance related. Very difficult to diagnose from a pic without knowing far more details. Just saying might be barking up the wrong tree for all we know.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Saadshaikh1215 said:


> So
> From my current dosing levels
> N 25ppm
> P 6ppm
> ...


These values are what you're dosing each week between water changes?

40 ppm K per week is too much. While K isnt toxic, high levels can inhibit the absorption of other nutrients, specifically Ca, N, P, Mg, and B. Out of those, a deficiency of Ca or B would match your symptoms. And your GH (Ca+Mg) isnt very high to begin with

Best to keep K down around NO3 levels, or slightly above.

And yes you could easily get by with less NO3. It may be as simple as that because 25/week is very high, EI only calls for about 22


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## WillMoon (Jun 18, 2019)

Saadshaikh1215 said:


> Hello guys I'm new to the forum
> I'm am having a huge issue with my rotala rotundifolia green and h'ra
> As u can see in the pictures
> The leaves are getting thin and transparent on the lower top area of the plant
> ...


 I'm dealing with exactly the same deficiency or excess of nitrogen.


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

There was a great talk at the past AGA convention. On Rotala by Vin Kutty

https://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/

On how to fertilize them.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

burr740 said:


> These values are what you're dosing each week between water changes?
> 
> 40 ppm K per week is too much. While K isnt toxic, high levels can inhibit the absorption of other nutrients, specifically Ca, N, P, Mg, and B. Out of those, a deficiency of Ca or B would match your symptoms. And your GH (Ca+Mg) isnt very high to begin with
> 
> ...


 @Saadshaikh1215 I was going to recommend chopping your K in half. My experience with K is at levels above my NO3 levels, it causes problems. @burr740 I actually was seeing K related issues here recently running 30-10-30, dropped to 30-10-10 and things exploded. Plants that had been doing nothing for a long time rapidly put on new growth. I was pleasantly surprised, I expected that to be too low, and it still might be, but I'm going to run it for a while and watch for K deficiency. So far, really, really good! 

This is my Rotala from September, I got rid of almost all of it, but this is being grown in 1 dKH, 7.7 dGH water with 30-9-30 at the time. 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12ZQGFSxB19bpCdqcaCdKwa3mJAiUW9Tk/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12nDx-LiTLnjuHzzBh34n1CuedlScLET6/view?usp=sharing

I think Rotala can do very well in fert rich environments, but I think you might be too rich on K. Could be something else, but I'd cut that K back to at least NO3 levels like burr suggested. Even if it isn't the problem, you're dosing more than needed so leaning that out won't hurt.


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