# 120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style new pics 137



## plantbrain

Well, I just did not like the general feel of the ADA like minimalist display prior, so I tore the entire thing down.

Here, I wanted to add lots of color, contrast, display the nice Manzy wood I have, make it a lot of stem plant and pruning type of tank(yes, work:icon_roll), but somewhat manageable still.

I have enough plants to fill it, but I'll remove some plants on the sides(Erios and Compact the Crypt parva down some, I have a few small divider pieces of Manzy wood I'll add this week to make a better dividing line for some of the groups.

I'll change the groups of plants around till I'm happy(often a long process), to achieve the best contrast based more on Dutch rules, rather than ADA aesthetics. Right now it's fairly simple red green red green layout, and less textured contrast. Most of these species are easy to sell also, so they are good "crop plants", 500 or more of the fire cherry shrimp makes it a good shrimp factory.

I have an ADA style tank and my 180 is somewhat loosely based on ADA style, A reef and a Rift cichlid tank. I want a nice style and method for each tank that is different, not all planted tanks with one style.

Tank is not that old after complete tear down, maybe 4 weeks or less.


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## Jeffww

That is some big helferi.


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## RipariumGuy

Very good looking setup Mr. Barr. I really like the different colors and textures. The foreground plants look really interesting to me as well.


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## 2in10

Gorgeous setup, this will be fantastic grown in.


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## Geniusdudekiran

WOW, Tom, you never fail to amaze. Some staurogyne repens would look great in there!


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## driftwoods

Looks amazing love the color.


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## BlueJack

Tank's lookin great! What kind of plant is that growing above the water line, on the driftwood?



plantbrain said:


>


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## plantbrain

Geniusdudekiran said:


> WOW, Tom, you never fail to amaze. Some staurogyne repens would look great in there!


Crap, I do not want anymore of that, I already have a tank full of it in my 180. Rule no#1, never keep the same plants in different tanks, like the same fish etc

I have some of the Starou porto velho.

Some of the Downoi are still recovering, but will have plenty soon enough, already trying to sell it

Anyone want 4-6 large dowoni? see my sales thread.

The red ludwigia is a real nice plant. Has a nice growth pattern
The Wallichii has really colored up today, I just got it a about 3 days ago.
L always love wallichii, is one of my favorite plants when grown well.

I got some Erio cineruem which I prefer for scaping than many of the others.
I'd considered Erio setaceum, but the Hydrothrix is very similar and more uncommon, so I'll hang onto that. 

This tank has a lot of red colors and bright greens.
That's the purpose.

I used the driftwood much like a large old bonasi tree that has died back and the roots are exposed. The branchy flat laying driftwood is nice since it forms natural rows/streets of plants(which will have a nicer front to back height after a few trims), and sections off the plant divisions, and adds contrast between each group of plants, this makes scaping with this style of wood very easy and wood is far more mallable than rock/stone. 

Still thinking about the fish community...........it'll have the Fire reds for sure, and the Gold nuggets........and Amano's........

I still need to move some plants around, some are just added cause I ain't got no home for them just yet or are going elsewhere.
Give me a month or two.


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## plantbrain

BlueJack said:


> Tank's lookin great! What kind of plant is that growing above the water line, on the driftwood?


Moss that needs a killing.

I have some smaller penny wort species that will form nice tufts on the top on this new tank.

I have this in 2 other tanks, I like the effect and it uses the open top aspect nicely. It does not lend well for photos and scape contest, but I do not give a rats hind quarter about that. I ain't nothing to prove there, hehe.
I just want a nice colorful display with breeding, sales of weeds, critters, Semi dutch style and somewhat easy to manage.


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## plantbrain




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## speedie408

Is this the downoi you got from me Tom?

Love the scape man. This is exactly why I want some new wood pieces from you. Love how the dark reds contrast with the bright greens. So envious of that tank depth.


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## Jeffww

Cmon Tom! Straighten out that substrate line! Can't wait to see it in a few months.


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## plantbrain

speedie408 said:


> Is this the downoi you got from me Tom?
> 
> Love the scape man. This is exactly why I want some new wood pieces from you. Love how the dark reds contrast with the bright greens. So envious of that tank depth.


Yep, the stumps are the from "the other person".......they got cooked in shipping.

But the stumps have recovered, just take another month or so before they get trimmed and remove the ugly. I'm patient so it's not a huge deal to me.

Stop by and pick through the piles I have sometime then, tape off your tank's foot print and I lend a white board to tape off the background. This way you can layout the scape here with less issues. I have more wood than ANY LFS after all. So I may as well use it eh?


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## plantbrain

Jeffww said:


> Cmon Tom! Straighten out that substrate line! Can't wait to see it in a few months.


Yea, I left the UG alone when I redid things and it's slowly coming along. Everything else is growing fast and recovering quick. The color on the L peruensis will take another 1-2 weeks, and the A reineckii will take even longer to convert to submersed form, maybe 1-2 months.

Once the UG fills in nice, I'll trim a 1-1.5 " border in the front.
That is an old method/style from a long time ago, before foreground plants really were the rage. Most just allow it to press against the front of the glass these days.

I only have maybe 1-1.5" depth in the UG, the rest is under 1" in the front. It's barely shallow enough to plant anything, but gets 8" deep in the rear.


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## Bahugo

Tank looks great! Can't wait to watch everything fill out. 

I messaged you 1 last question about that driftwood btw.


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## speedie408

plantbrain said:


> Stop by and pick through the piles I have sometime then, tape off your tank's foot print and I lend a white board to tape off the background. This way you can layout the scape here with less issues. I have more wood than ANY LFS after all. So I may as well use it eh?


Noted and will take your offer into consideration. You live in Davis correct?


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## plantbrain

speedie408 said:


> Noted and will take your offer into consideration. You live in Davis correct?


Sacratomato

Right off 5 and 50.


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## orchidman

wow! this looks great! its a new setup and already it looks full and lush! great job!


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## Vinny409

WOW that tank is gourgeous. thats an amazing red you got on it


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## plantbrain

Vinny409 said:


> WOW that tank is gourgeous. thats an amazing red you got on it


Well, the tank has only 1.8 w/gal and the light is about 16" over the top, it's the plant and good CO2 that is the main cause.

Some species/variants stay nice and red.......it's not much of a trick to have nice red plants. If other folks thought it is a typical Ludwigia repens...then they'd feel pretty bad....but it's not.


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## plantbrain




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## jkan0228

Lobe the first shot. Wish I had that much room to work with!


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## meowschwitz

What's that red/magenta-looking plant in the middle?


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## grogan

Amazing..You are a true master! I like how you fight the traditional ADA style. Not all successful planted tanks have to look ADA. Great tank


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## zergling

Tom, sweet tank, as always. 

Quick question - what are you using for dosing trace, and how much?


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## jkan0228

Btw what size is that Vortech? The Powerhead that is stuck onto the glass.


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## nonconductive

looks awesome tom


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## Senior Shrimpo

Ohhhh dangg. It's on! 

I love the red plants, such a focal point! Tom, you know exactly what you're doing


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## KH2PO4

plantbrain said:


>


Is that a reflection or there is no soil in the back area?:icon_eek:


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## UDGags

This is by far my favorite tank of yours I've seen.


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## plantbrain

meowschwitz said:


> What's that red/magenta-looking plant in the middle?


A Red ludwigia type, stays super red........many folks thought that these varierties where the saem types.......and that they needed MORE light or to stress their plants, but in fact, they just needed the right biotype/strain, eg Rotala rountifolundia vs R. colorata. 

I think I paid 15$ a stem.

I'll be selling some in a week or two. Easy to grow plant. Doesn't need high light etc(I've yet to find such a plant).


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## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Tom, sweet tank, as always.
> 
> Quick question - what are you using for dosing trace, and how much?


CMS/DTPA Fe, Fe Gluconate: 3:1:1 
2 table spoons per 1 liter, heated water to mix, then 20mls or so of excel to prevent mold.

I add about 30-45 mls every other day or something close.


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## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> btw what size is that vortech? The powerhead that is stuck onto the glass.


mp20


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## plantbrain

KH2PO4 said:


> Is that a reflection or there is no soil in the back area?:icon_eek:


It's just dark in the pic, there's plenty of soil, it's just sloped to the nub at the tank edge there.


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## 2in10

Gorgeous tank, beautiful scape. Who says you need to plant red plants in front of green plants to show them off.


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## plantbrain

2in10 said:


> Gorgeous tank, beautiful scape. Who says you need to plant red plants in front of green plants to show them off.


If it looks good, it is good. 

Fairly simple thing.

I still need to rework this display as the plants go from emergent to submerse growth form. A reineckii will take a month or so. L granulosus/peruinesis is almost done converting. UG is aboiut 70% filled in. The Dwarf Red lilies will make a nice prunable row next to C parva, I'll thin out and make more defined groups in the back ground. Lots to be done still.


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## 2in10

plantbrain said:


> If it looks good, it is good.
> 
> Fairly simple thing.


I couldn't agree more.


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## plantbrain

2in10 said:


> I couldn't agree more.


So why do so many copy other styles?


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## nonconductive

plantbrain said:


> So why do so many copy other styles?


lack of creativity


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## rockwood

Yeah, I'm not much on the "styles" either. Of course I'm a web designer so the anti-styles thing might come from that because there are so many imitators I try very hard not too be one. 

I just kind of slap stuff in there and thought it looked pretty good when it was in its prime. Unfortunately I'm having trouble getting back to that . 

Anyways, I really like how you separated the plants into groups utilizing the wood. I might steal that from you


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## plantbrain

nonconductive said:


> lack of creativity


I wonder.........I'm not so sure. Might be a lack of examples too. I've seen some real creative stuff done over the years, just not as pretty pictures as ADA. It also seems that such creatively, while appreciated............does not hold a high esteem as many things in the hobby.


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## plantbrain

rockwood said:


> Anyways, I really like how you separated the plants into groups utilizing the wood. I might steal that from you


Well, I think it's an easy technique to improve transitions and to help some with collectoritus, a common aliment with many plant hobbyists.
I'm not sure I would called it a style of it's own. 

HLD is the other common aliment...............


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## nonconductive

high light disorder?


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## nonconductive

plantbrain said:


> I wonder.........I'm not so sure. Might be a lack of examples too. I've seen some real creative stuff done over the years, just not as pretty pictures as ADA. It also seems that such creatively, while appreciated............does not hold a high esteem as many things in the hobby.


 
i can compare it to music, particularly the Industrial/EBM scene. one artist creates his own sound, grows a following and has minor success. other people notice and now you have 50 groups that sound the EXACT same.


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## 2in10

plantbrain said:


> So why do so many copy other styles?





nonconductive said:


> lack of creativity


I agree, or they are trying to recreate a tank they liked too much.


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## zergling

plantbrain said:


> CMS/DTPA Fe, Fe Gluconate: 3:1:1
> 2 table spoons per 1 liter, heated water to mix, then 20mls or so of excel to prevent mold.
> 
> I add about 30-45 mls every other day or something close.


Thanks Tom. 

One more question -- is it necessary to mix the dry powder in a liquid solution? 
If I did my math right*, 45mL is roughly equivalent to 1/4 tsp of the dry 3:1:1 mix.



*Assuming total volume of solution is 1L. 
2tbsp = 6tsp of trace mix per 1L
45mL = 0.045L
6tsp * 0.045L = 0.27tsp
0.27tsp = a little over 1/4tsp.


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## VadimShevchuk

Gorgeous tank with beautiful colors! I don't know why dutch isn't as popular as it used to be?


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## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Thanks Tom.
> 
> One more question -- is it necessary to mix the dry powder in a liquid solution?
> If I did my math right*, 45mL is roughly equivalent to 1/4 tsp of the dry 3:1:1 mix.
> 
> 
> 
> *Assuming total volume of solution is 1L.
> 2tbsp = 6tsp of trace mix per 1L
> 45mL = 0.045L
> 6tsp * 0.045L = 0.27tsp
> 0.27tsp = a little over 1/4tsp.


No, you can mix the 2-3 traces dry and then dose that dry, but I think it works a little better using hot water to fully dissolve the Traces, then add that.


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## plantbrain

nonconductive said:


> high light disorder?


2 are correct, the last could be disorder as well, I refer to it as a (mental) "disease".

Collectoritus? That's like the show, "horders".

A little is okay, but not too much.


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## plantbrain

VadimShevchuk said:


> Gorgeous tank with beautiful colors! I don't know why dutch isn't as popular as it used to be?


Well, lack of pictures on the web and in contest, there's no company promoting them or the style, the contest are limited, many outside of the counrty do not follow the rules/criteria, they bastardize it.

I'm guilty myself with this tank.

It's loosely dutch style, but that was less of the goal when I decided what I wanted to do.

Most of the inspiration was from the dutch techniques and styles.

Also, the Dutch style has been around since the 1940's in terms of the competitions and pictures. It is much older and more rigid than ADA's nature style. But ADA's "nature style" is not their own really........much like Dutch style.......they are both taken from other terrestrial styles.

Pick up Japanese landscaping and gardening and you will see almost to the tee, ADA nature style above the water. 

Still, with EXCELLENT photos from Amano, and aggressive marketing worldwide and financial incentive....... there's good reason to see why NA style is so popular.

It is a wonderful style.


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## micr0

Wow really exciting tank. Amazing reds!


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## StillLearning

Tom what kinda overflow box is that? Also what kinda sump do you use on the tank that you can seal it up to prevent co2 loss? Really nice tank as always!


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## audioaficionado

While we're asking about the tank, what are the dimensions and who built it?


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## ua hua

StillLearning said:


> Tom what kinda overflow box is that? Also what kinda sump do you use on the tank that you can seal it up to prevent co2 loss? Really nice tank as always!


 
That would be a CPR overflow box.


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## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> While we're asking about the tank, what are the dimensions and who built it?


Charile and The Fish Tank Factory in Long Beach, CA, same as a Lemar.

Nice guy.

48x30x18

More a reef style tank than what we see typically for plant tanks.


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## plantbrain

StillLearning said:


> Tom what kinda overflow box is that? Also what kinda sump do you use on the tank that you can seal it up to prevent co2 loss? Really nice tank as always!












Duct tape, that's how to stop CO2 loss froma wet/dry, look at the filter, you'll see it on the top lip. Now that section is just a giant CO2 reactor.


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## plantbrain

Think I'm going to add a school of Dwarf Rainbows in this tank.


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## jcgd

plantbrain said:


> Think I'm going to add a school of Dwarf Rainbows in this tank.


I've always found I lose one or two rainbows a month to jumping in my open top tanks . However, I've always wanted a big school of praecox... they are common, but F1 or F2 look incredible. What variety are you thinking about?


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## 2in10

plantbrain said:


> Think I'm going to add a school of Dwarf Rainbows in this tank.


They would look great in there.


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## StillLearning

ua hua said:


> That would be a CPR overflow box.





plantbrain said:


> Duct tape, that's how to stop CO2 loss froma wet/dry, look at the filter, you'll see it on the top lip. Now that section is just a giant CO2 reactor.


Thank you. Setting up a new tank and think I might go this route.


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## Bensr20det

That is so beautiful. I can't wait to see more.


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## plantbrain

jcgd said:


> I've always found I lose one or two rainbows a month to jumping in my open top tanks . However, I've always wanted a big school of praecox... they are common, but F1 or F2 look incredible. What variety are you thinking about?


Yes, I know a few will leap to their deaths.

I lose a cardinal about once every 1-3 months or so.
They are not $$$, so I'm okay.

Not sure on the variety. I've kept some bosemani for client's, but have not kept much for myself in a very long time.

NG threadfins was another idea, small and delicate etc.
The other idea is a type of Boras.

Too much reds though, I want something a bit silvery and flashy.

It's an active colorful tank, so..........many many choices here.


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## rockwood

I LOVE my rainbows. I have mix of Bosemani, turquoise, new guinea and a yellow. I think the bosemanis would look really good in there.


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## doncityz

Wow.


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## plantbrain

rockwood said:


> I LOVE my rainbows. I have mix of Bosemani, turquoise, new guinea and a yellow. I think the bosemanis would look really good in there.


They get a little too big though.

The other SA fish was Gold/Brass tetras, the smaller ones, but I already had them.

So I'd rather try something else.


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## Noahma

plantbrain said:


> Think I'm going to add a school of Dwarf Rainbows in this tank.


I like that choice, the dwarf neons are my personal favorite fish.


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## phan10ms

How do you get the glosso to grow so low and not leggy? How many bulbs are you running?


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## plantbrain

phan10ms said:


> How do you get the glosso to grow so low and not leggy? How many bulbs are you running?


Low light= slower growth, not shaded by other plants, I only have 1.8 w/gal in the tank.

And those bulbs are 40" away from the sediment.

Maybe jamming way too much light is not the best best and rather, focusing on good care, good CO2, good water changes and rich ferts is a simpler way with less energy usage and risk of algae????


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## phan10ms

plantbrain said:


> Low light= slower growth, not shaded by other plants, I only have 1.8 w/gal in the tank.
> 
> And those bulbs are 40" away from the sediment.
> 
> Maybe jamming way too much light is not the best best and rather, focusing on good care, good CO2, good water changes and rich ferts is a simpler way with less energy usage and risk of algae????


From what I can see your glosso blade grows very close to the substrate, even buried. Mine have been rather long or leggy as they say. They're growing sideways though. I'm running 2 x 24w T5HO and is about 10 inches away from the tank "60P". I've read somewhere that high co2 concentration can cause leggy growth. Is that true? 

BTW, loving that tank, Tom.


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## plantbrain

phan10ms said:


> From what I can see your glosso blade grows very close to the substrate, even buried. Mine have been rather long or leggy as they say. They're growing sideways though. I'm running 2 x 24w T5HO and is about 10 inches away from the tank "60P". I've read somewhere that high co2 concentration can cause leggy growth. Is that true?
> 
> BTW, loving that tank, Tom.


I think I've read more Steer manure about causes of "Leggy Gloss" from not enough light, the too much CO2 is a new one on me:redface:

Whoever told you that, do not take their advice or put too much faith in what they say. 

If you keep it trimmed, not overshadowed by other plants etc......it does quite well.

I just gave the tank a nice hacking. The rear 3/4 of the left side got whacked about 8-9" and then some of the row plants got trimmed, and some foreground plants got some hair cutting.

Not as bad as I'd thought it 'd be.


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## jkan0228

Any pics after the trim?


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## jl209

Tropical haven in modesto has dwarf rainbows frequently. They had some nice splendids last time I was there. You would have to be up for a drive though.


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## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> Any pics after the trim?


Hummm......good idea and question.

I'll take one and get it up at some point.


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## plantbrain

jl209 said:


> Tropical haven in modesto has dwarf rainbows frequently. They had some nice splendids last time I was there. You would have to be up for a drive though.


Thanks, I can buy wholesale, so I'm luckier than many.
I do not sell fish/animals via mail. Only plants and dry goods etc.


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## plantbrain

AFTER


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## orchidman

looks great! I REALLY WANT TO GET SOME OF THAT RED LUDWIGIA NEXT TIME YOU SELL IT! IM GONNA START SAVING NOW

edit- sorry for caps


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## 2in10

Fantastic


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## jkan0228

Your tank looks just as good after the trim.....


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## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> looks great! I REALLY WANT TO GET SOME OF THAT RED LUDWIGIA NEXT TIME YOU SELL IT! IM GONNA START SAVING NOW
> 
> edit- sorry for caps


It's a nice weedy red plant. I thought it'd be a bit pickier..but it's quite easy to grow, even with low light. 

I've seen it before in pictures, and folks would say that nutrients/light was the key to keeping red and implied that it was the SAME as L repens, which we all know it simply is NOT the case.

Sort of like some other varieties that look like the same plant, but are real red in color.

It was the varieties, not the nutrients/luight, or some "secret", they either did not realize the varietal difference or they conveniently left out that bit of information.

It's happened a number times now over the years.


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## orchidman

do you know of the cultivar? or does it not have one yet?


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## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> do you know of the cultivar? or does it not have one yet?


I've heard rumors, but that's about it.
I do not put that much faith in names, if there is a holotype and it has a botantical reference, okay, otherwise I could call it Tom Barr's Blood Ludwigia.


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## orchidman

lol! sounds like a good name! real catchy and not too long.


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## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> lol! sounds like a good name! real catchy and not too long.


Folks like to buy it.
I like to trim it, that's a fair deal.

I'll likely make some changes in the coming weeks and would like to allow the R wallichii to fully dominate as well in a nice thick street, I do not lack red colors here.......so I'll think what I might place in that spot instead.


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## orchidman

thats very fair! i know ill be getting some eventually.


sounds like a plan!


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## 150EH

This is another nice looking tank and the color from above looks really cool with many different shades of red againt the green, I should have listened to my mother and went to college!

I noticed your shrimp have really good color, what variety are they???


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## plantbrain

150EH said:


> This is another nice looking tank and the color from above looks really cool with many different shades of red againt the green, I should have listened to my mother and went to college!
> 
> I noticed your shrimp have really good color, what variety are they???


Fire red cockeroaches. 

Amanos also.


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## audioaficionado

plantbrain said:


> Fire red cockeroaches.
> 
> Amanos also.


I was thinking of getting some of those fire red roaches, but my LFS is closing their doors this year if the business doesn't sell. I have to have a humane outlet for the thousands of offspring. Amanos look like a much better bet even if I have to purchase replenishments instead of generating surplus.


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## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> I was thinking of getting some of those fire red roaches, but my LFS is closing their doors this year if the business doesn't sell. I have to have a humane outlet for the thousands of offspring. Amanos look like a much better bet even if I have to purchase replenishments instead of generating surplus.


Yea, they are nice in some ways, but if you ever want to remove the roaches......dang.........it's hard...........real hard to get them all..........Amanos, Nerite snails etc.....these are easy and rarely/never "pest".

So there's something to be said for that.

Since I view the culling and pruning as FARMING/SALES, I'm more likely to motivate myself to trim and net them out. This is an agreement with my own bad habits that gets me to do the needed work.

This tank now pays for itself and it's energy use.

I'll be moving in 1-2 years and will install some large solar panel banks and a few other energy saving things so I am a producer of both energy and aquarium plants/critters. An Electric car will also remove 90% of the gas usage I now incur.

But..it takes some energy and effort, money etc to do this. I view this as a business and less as a hobby, but at heart, it's still a hobby and has led to other considerations such as the home, energy usage, etc.

The plan is to switch out the lighting to all LED's and that will occur and be tested in the coming 2-3 months.


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## chad320

Forgive me for notlooking back but is this the one you took the OC filter off of and replaced with a sealed sump?


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## jcgd

chad320 said:


> Forgive me for notlooking back but is this the one you took the OC filter off of and replaced with a sealed sump?


That was his 180 wood scape. I believe he went with the wet dry off the bat on this tank.


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## kuni

Dwarf neons would look good.

If you'd like to try a school of 30-40 Oryzias woworae, I can hook you up. Same colors as praecox, but the parents can't eat juveniles, so you get recruits unless the school's too big for the tank.

All it takes is some nice manzy for my 90G... :hihi:


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## plantbrain

jcgd said:


> That was his 180 wood scape. I believe he went with the wet dry off the bat on this tank.


Yep..........I had a OC filter on the old 120 which had a 24x24x48" tank size.........but I took that one off and reused the sump and pump.

I suppose I could add an OC filter, but they are a PITA to clean and reuse those cartridges. Slows the flow down as they clog etc.

I just accept a little filth and do good sized water changes and use sponge.
Another option would be to have a mechanical loop inside the sump with a very fine micron rated canister. Something cheapo like coffee filters etc that I could toss out easy every 2-3 days etc.


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## plantbrain

Did do a little bit more trimming, most species are doing better after adapting to the new home.........Fire red shrimps are roaches...they are everywhere. Time to start culling them and selling them off locally.


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## audioaficionado

Maybe you could get a fish to help that wouldn't bother your other fish.


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## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> Maybe you could get a fish to help that wouldn't bother your other fish.


I think C. compressiceps would do well, they'd be fat:redface:

Problem is I have Sturisoma fry also.

I'll be adding new guinea rainbows here in a week or so.


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## Centromochlus

Nice tank Tom!

What is the deep red plant behind the _Hydrothrix garderi_?


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## Lil' Swimz$

plantbrain said:


> AFTER



This picture pulls at my heart strings :L That is gorgeous.


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## plantbrain

AzFishKid said:


> Nice tank Tom!
> 
> What is the deep red plant behind the _Hydrothrix garderi_?


Err, could be Red myrio the M turbulatum or whatever........P stellatus, A reineckii that has not colored up entirely..........Green Rotala macrandra, the larger wide leaf bright green thing is something else, I do not recall, it had a nice large bright green leaf so I liked it and it's easy to grow/care for.

I trimmed today and sloped the Ludwigia sp "red" nicely and went to the bone in the front, removed some filler plants, added a spacer wood piece or two, thinned out stuff here and there. Hedge sod cut the UG a bit.

Spent most of the time playing with my Woodagumi 70 Gallon. Pics will be forthcoming in a month or so.
Trimmed the staro porto velho some also finally. Spread it out a little. It's not taking off as fast as most of the foreground plants. Even UG does a faster clip. This is good and bad, once it does grow in, it'll stay put. 

The L pantanal is becoming a bit weedy. Getting it to scape well and be ordered and consistent is not the easiest thing. I may replace with something else or move it where I can tend it more.


----------



## kuni

I got to see this tank in person today when I dropped off the club PAR meter.

It's even nicer in person. The variety of colors in the tank is really neat. Reds, oranges, greens....very nice. I'm not usually a fan of dutch-ish tanks, but this one's quite impressive.


----------



## Booger

Looking good. How do you prefer to run the Vortech? I have an MP40 on my 75, but have only used the constant mode.


----------



## plantbrain

kuni said:


> I got to see this tank in person today when I dropped off the club PAR meter.
> 
> It's even nicer in person. The variety of colors in the tank is really neat. Reds, oranges, greens....very nice. I'm not usually a fan of dutch-ish tanks, but this one's quite impressive.


You agreed to lie about it:icon_wink
It's full of algae and this tank is heavily photoshopped.


----------



## plantbrain

Booger said:


> Looking good. How do you prefer to run the Vortech? I have an MP40 on my 75, but have only used the constant mode.


Lagoon mode.


----------



## audioaficionado

plantbrain said:


> I think C. compressiceps would do well, they'd be fat:redface:


Even though they're dwarf, wouldn't they still tear up your substrate? :biggrin:


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> Even though they're dwarf, wouldn't they still tear up your substrate? :biggrin:


Huh? these guys do nothing to the sediment.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Cren...e=univ&ei=UHqTTvraGYrjiALlpeT_BA&ved=0CDEQsAQ


----------



## audioaficionado

plantbrain said:


> Huh? these guys do nothing to the sediment.
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=Cren...e=univ&ei=UHqTTvraGYrjiALlpeT_BA&ved=0CDEQsAQ


Dwarf Pike Cichlids: Just thought Cichlids were mostly into remodeling their environment. Nice to know these don't.


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> Dwarf Pike Cichlids: Just thought Cichlids were mostly into remodeling their environment. Nice to know these don't.


Well, some do, so it's a fair question since I was not very specific
These guys are full of attitude for being such a little fish.


----------



## rockwood

The New Guinea Rainbows will be nice. I have a pair of them and if I could easily replace my bosemanis with more I would. The male's color ranges from orange to a dark maroon. He's also got a lot of gold iridescence to him. When he's the darker red you can see the gold color a lot more. I call it his "bling mode."


----------



## nonconductive

lovely tank, tom


----------



## zergling

Wouldn't the compressiceps decimate your red roach population, though? Or is that not the case? 

Sorry, I'm not very familiar (or much into) cichlids outside of gbr's and apisto cac's.


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Wouldn't the compressiceps decimate your red roach population, though? Or is that not the case?
> 
> Sorry, I'm not very familiar (or much into) cichlids outside of gbr's and apisto cac's.


They would do a good number, but 1-2 fish X 500 hard to find Fires would be tough. They'd have to pick them off in the tiniest smallest cracks in the wood and thickets of plants.

In an open tank.......sure..........


----------



## zergling

Ah right, good point Tom! Somehow I thought you were planning on getting a big number.


----------



## DishyFishy

o m g... i love the DW


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Ah right, good point Tom! Somehow I thought you were planning on getting a big number.


No, it'd be just a few, but I do not think I will, the Dwarf rainbows will be put in next week early.


----------



## inkslinger

BlueJack said:


> Tank's lookin great! What kind of plant is that growing above the water line, on the driftwood?


Tom is that a CPR on the right side of the tank? Are you using a Sump and how is it set-up? What type pump?


----------



## StillLearning

inkslinger said:


> Tom is that a CPR on the right side of the tank? Are you using a Sump and how is it set-up? What type pump?



Page 4 its stated its a CPR also Tom posted a pic of his sump. Not sure on the pump though.


----------



## Alyssa

Oooooo so prettyyyyy! <3

What did you use for the soil? I have decided that I hate stratum completely, and I'm kind of nervous to actually raid a paddy of some dirt ... call me a chicken, but I'm too big a girl to be trying to dodge an irate farmer's shotgun pellets for trespassing while holding a bucket full of dirt and a shovel! LOL


----------



## plantbrain

StillLearning said:


> Page 4 its stated its a CPR also Tom posted a pic of his sump. Not sure on the pump though.


Rainbow plastics Lifeguard, pushed about 900 gph at 4ft head.
The pump on top is a Tom's diaphram to remove any air that builds up in over flow siphon.


----------



## plantbrain

Alyssa said:


> Oooooo so prettyyyyy! <3
> 
> What did you use for the soil? I have decided that I hate stratum completely, and I'm kind of nervous to actually raid a paddy of some dirt ... call me a chicken, but I'm too big a girl to be trying to dodge an irate farmer's shotgun pellets for trespassing while holding a bucket full of dirt and a shovel! LOL



I have ADA aqua soil in here.

Same in my 180 Gallon.


----------



## plantbrain

Alyssa said:


> Oooooo so prettyyyyy! <3
> 
> What did you use for the soil? I have decided that I hate stratum completely, and I'm kind of nervous to actually raid a paddy of some dirt ... call me a chicken, but I'm too big a girl to be trying to dodge an irate farmer's shotgun pellets for trespassing while holding a bucket full of dirt and a shovel! LOL


You can also drive anywhere in the delta region.........plenty of small roads off 113 north of Woodland.
They do not care, tell them you are from the Ag commissioner's office doing soil samples. I've been all over these places and know many of the water district folks.......they have hunters out there etc...duck season, blam!, there goes daffy!


----------



## sewingalot

Very pretty, Tom. Your new choice of weeds are a pleasant improvement. Didn't care for the ADA style tank, never really been fond of that style. I'm all for dutch and similar styles. Isn't that ludwigia palustris sp 'red' awesome? Grows great even for me. That's saying something.


----------



## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> Very pretty, Tom. Your new choice of weeds are a pleasant improvement. Didn't care for the ADA style tank, never really been fond of that style. I'm all for dutch and similar styles. Isn't that ludwigia palustris sp 'red' awesome? Grows great even for me. That's saying something.


I think it is a very nice plant and a good horticultural addition to the hobby.

Things like weedy mosses, L pantanal........some wimpy weeds etc.....they are more trouble than they are worth often times, or folks that want really red plants, well, here's one that stays nice no matter what you do to it.

Wise plant choices are good.

This L sp "red" will drop in price and has already pretty much.
I do not care that much about the price.only that it's a nice plant to work with.

Dutch style appeals more to folks interested in the species than the over all design, effect........ in general. Controlled collectoritus so to speak. This tank si not a Dutch tank however. But it fails the Nature aquarium test also.

There's no inspired vision or essence of the design really. 
The wood is a theme, but that's about all. the plants are simple contrast and the placement is simply a response to the wood dividers.


----------



## sewingalot

I call it Tom's Garden of Eden.  I saw someone selling 2 stems for $10 already. I was very fortunate and got a steal on the plant a while ago. It's much easier than others. How many different plants do you plan to grow in your tank?

Nature aquariums never did much for me. Just looked like grass with random rocks thrown in for most of those out there. I didn't see the appeal. But to each there own. 

Do you use a regular sump or a wet dry?


----------



## audioaficionado

It doesn't matter what style or genera you call it. It either looks good or it doesn't work. I'm not an expert nor can I explain or justify why I like one tank over another, but this one works well for my eyes and mind.


----------



## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> I call it Tom's Garden of Eden.  I saw someone selling 2 stems for $10 already. I was very fortunate and got a steal on the plant a while ago. It's much easier than others. How many different plants do you plan to grow in your tank?
> 
> Nature aquariums never did much for me. Just looked like grass with random rocks thrown in for most of those out there. I didn't see the appeal. But to each there own.
> 
> Do you use a regular sump or a wet dry?


I honestly love both styles and also am interested in developing and making my own. I tend to break rules and ask some rather basic questions.

I'm not a "contrarian" however.

A well done Nature aquarium with a high level of craftsmanship done is a nice sight to behold. As is a nice well done Dutch tank. Both involve much more craftsmanship than many think. Less creativity really. 
I do not think this tank is particularly creative, but just different is all.

I have about 20-25 species I think, I've had tanks with 40-50 before........but for this tank, 25 would be the limit really. 

I use a wet/dry on all my tanks, client's included.


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> It doesn't matter what style or genera you call it. It either looks good or it doesn't work. I'm not an expert nor can I explain or justify why I like one tank over another, but this one works well for my eyes and mind.


In music, I say if it sounds good, it is good.
Same with anything really.

But to the musician or the aquarist, I often ask the creator, do you feel happy with it?

I'm a ways off, but getting there and on the right general path, far from perfect.


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> It doesn't matter what style or genera you call it. It either looks good or it doesn't work. I'm not an expert nor can I explain or justify why I like one tank over another, but this one works well for my eyes and mind.


In music, I say if it sounds good, it is good.
Same with anything really.

But to the musician or the aquarist, I often ask the creator, do you feel happy with it?

I'm a ways off, but getting there and on the right general path, far from perfect.

Here's where the wood comes from, I'
ll take a few more shots, if the damn deer hunters do not shoot me, dang....they are everywhere, got frigging homes built up there.

Cabela's made a lot of $$$ this season on those suckers.











There is a 3000-4000ft canyon below on the other side of this.
Tough work eh? Actually it is..........but pretty place.

I work on aquatic weeds in Lake Tahoe, and this is on the way about 10-15 miles out of my way.

Rice paddy soil is the same almost as the ADA AS.........I live around that and see it daily........so when folks suggest that they need to be in nature.........well..........


----------



## plantbrain

Update, still a ways off, I need to redo the R wallichii and add the L pantanal perhaps in that spot where I can trim it often..........have some more slight wood combos to work on. A couple more trims and I should be in a good zone.
Fairly easy tank to manage now. Video might be upcoming in the future.


----------



## Craigthor

Looking great, love all the colors.


----------



## plantbrain

Right side is okay, the left needs work.


----------



## ua hua

Looking very good. How do you like the S. 'porto velho'? That stuff grew like a weed when I had it in my tank and needed to be trimmed very often otherwise it grew into a tangled mess. I love the look of it until it got out of hand so I was wanting your take on this plant.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Looking very good. How do you like the S. 'porto velho'? That stuff grew like a weed when I had it in my tank and needed to be trimmed very often otherwise it grew into a tangled mess. I love the look of it until it got out of hand so I was wanting your take on this plant.


It's the slowest grower out of all the species I have in here. 
Weird.......

Might not like the new ADA AS's NH4........but even still, but now it should be doing well.

Here's what I did with it in the past:


























It did fine in ADA AS before, same tap, same fert, same except the light is different......

I never liked the way it looked in the 60 cube either:










It looked good in the other dutch style tank above.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Looking very good. How do you like the S. 'porto velho'? That stuff grew like a weed when I had it in my tank and needed to be trimmed very often otherwise it grew into a tangled mess. I love the look of it until it got out of hand so I was wanting your take on this plant.


There's a nice brighter green limnophila species I like and might replace it with.

It's nice once it fills in, but it's not growing at the same rates as the other plants.


----------



## jkan0228

How's the L. Pereunsis doing? It's the slowest stem I have ever grown.


----------



## audioaficionado

What's this curly weed?


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> How's the L. Pereunsis doing? It's the slowest stem I have ever grown.


Does about 1-2" a week, making it a nicer stem plant in this tank, I trim it once a month. P stellata, L pantanal, the L sp "red", H garderi, M matogrossense, these are the real weeds. But they just get topped, so the work is not as bad, R wallichii, the L pereuneis get topped and the bottom is removed and only fresh tips are replanted.

Some plants do well with topping only..........others do well with replanting tops only.

You can allow the stumps to resprout on all of these, but the response time and look is poorer vs the other method. A little trial and error will tell you which is best.

I do take the path that gives a decent look and is the easiest, so a combo is the best for a tank like this.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

I'm very interested in seeing how the UG fairs over time. I've never seen a tank that has had UG in it for more than a few months, but if anyone can do it, it's you Tom!


----------



## jkan0228

plantbrain said:


> Does about 1-2" a week, making it a nicer stem plant in this tank, I trim it once a month. P stellata, L pantanal, the L sp "red", H garderi, M matogrossense, these are the real weeds. But they just get topped, so the work is not as bad, R wallichii, the L pereuneis get topped and the bottom is removed and only fresh tips are replanted.
> 
> Some plants do well with topping only..........others do well with replanting tops only.
> 
> You can allow the stumps to resprout on all of these, but the response time and look is poorer vs the other method. A little trial and error will tell you which is best.
> 
> I do take the path that gives a decent look and is the easiest, so a combo is the best for a tank like this.


Thanks! 
Btw the P. Stellatus I asked you about last time. What's the status on that?


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> What's this curly weed?
> 
> View attachment 36024


Echinodorus 'vesuvius' (_Echinodorus Angustifolia _)

Stays about 8-12" tall max, making it a nice plant for streets and scaping.
Easy to grow.


----------



## plantbrain

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> I'm very interested in seeing how the UG fairs over time. I've never seen a tank that has had UG in it for more than a few months, but if anyone can do it, it's you Tom!


I have 7-8 common foreground plants in this tank, none of them seem to require any high light or any of that.....I knew this going in.........but.......some grow slower faster than other plants.

I think this tank is much easier to manage using low, vs HIGH light.
With high light, the growth rates are much more pronounced and the differences play a bigger role.
I think that this is perhaps the main reason ADA's lighting is much less, it's just easier to grow different species of plants for gardening than high light.
Different plants will grow at different rates as you increase the light intensity. This also means they will use MORE CO2 as well, which can lead to some plants being deficient when you grow several species together.
We have all seen cases where 4-5 plants, maybe all except 1-2 species do well. But those 1-2 species does poorly and you wonder why: CO2 more than lightly, but adding high light also makes this a problem and more of problem than lower light. 
Still, on a more practical level, less light = easier to prune and keep plants in nice groups. 

UG was one of the longer plants to take hold along with Starougyne porto velho. *I would not have predicted that these would take as long as they did.* This was unexpected to me. I do not know why they behaved as they did/have. 
I also planted the UG is larger clumps, maybe 1.5" dia plugs vs smaller strands. This made it look sort of funny as it grew in. I had UG in my nano tanks in the plant and considered it for some other scapes, but due to the slower fill in rate, I stopped. In the nano, it filled in very fast, but I had high CO2 and light. Later, as the nano varied in water level, the CO2 would degas for 1-2 days etc, more than normal, then I'd end up Cladophora in the UG, which is almost impossible to pick out. So I removed the UG. AFA had a nice tank or two over the past few years that had nice rugs. I do not think they trimmed the 90 cm they had much.......so it got too long and pulled up some. If you trim it, then it should stay nice and short. I'll cut sod strips from the front edge and also push the soil under it back and up towards the rear a bit to make it look lower and "sloped". I like it because it has such a nice bright white green color.
ADA has not used it much either.

Long term care in this tank does not appear to be problematic, this tank is actually fairly easy to maintain. Big water changes, lots of shrimp, good stable CO2, good light management, I could likely get away without using the Vortech, use maybe a rio 800 or something instead etc, or a rio 180 even.

But......I have not added the rainbows yet.

CO2 is actually less than it is midday in this tank vs the 180 Gal which also is a very easy to manage tank now I've added the wet/dry filter to that. Less noise since the return pump is virtually silent vs the iwaki pump.


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> Thanks!
> Btw the P. Stellatus I asked you about last time. What's the status on that?


It's on the way.


----------



## plantbrain

Hacked back some of the P stellata and Myrio, moved the L pantanal to the left and back some, then replaced that area with the R wallichii............

This looks much better in the back.

I'm not feeling or liking the Starougyne porto velho. I'm going to remove it. I was thinking about Isoetes, a nice street of that is rarely seen...........or just use the nice bright shiny twisted green Ech "vesvius" agustafolia instead.

Both stay about 12" or less. 

The real problem is the replacement for the R wallichii........something that does not get too tall, or look ratty on the lower leaves, fine needled, either lime green/whitish.......or an off red to go with the red dwarf lilies on the other side.

I have some Tonina Fluv there for now, it looks nice, but is not the look I am after, even thought I have a affinity for that species.

I'm think Bacopa langeri instead.

Not a common plant though.

The tank is slowly getting there, step by step, fish will be in there this week finally. I'd like just N espei pencil fish in here, but I'd need a netted screen top.
Still thinking , but the NG dwarf rainbows will be nice also.


----------



## jkan0228

Pics please.


----------



## Alyssa

plantbrain said:


> You can also drive anywhere in the delta region.........plenty of small roads off 113 north of Woodland.
> They do not care, tell them you are from the Ag commissioner's office doing soil samples. I've been all over these places and know many of the water district folks.......they have hunters out there etc...duck season, blam!, there goes daffy!


 Man now I want roast duck. LOL

Thanks for giving me something to tell them LOL!

I'm thinking of doing that for a bowl as a baby step ....


----------



## plantbrain

Bowl soil planted tanks work nicely, easy etc.


----------



## 150EH

It does look nice and the red in the shrimp are quite nice, I think I mentioned that before.

The way you are using the L. Pereunsis is smart by just keeping it low and replanting the tops, I tried it as a midground and background plant but the bottoms get leggy and ugly while the tops a beautiful and a deep red, so experience wins again.

My S. porto velho doesn't do nearly as well in Flourite either but it is just getting established, even so it seems to just take off in the AS, somehow it doesn't look as neat as the 049.

I would definitely like to try a tank with AS it seem to be very much superior to other soils and your tanks always look so nice and the soil seems to be a constant.


----------



## malaybiswas

Love the layers of color. Is that a piece of wood floating on the left side?


----------



## plantbrain

Added NG dwarf rainbows, they fit well with the tank, red shrimps, Blue fish(that I actually can see and do not hide).

No floating wood.

I like ADA AS but many use DIY soils etc.......I did not like it initially. Too soft and fluffy. But took some getting use to. SMS is light and fluffy and hard, but has not nutrient content and plants do not stay put as well vs ADA AS. So took a little getting use to, once that is done, most like it. 

For a scape like this, having an all in one sediment is much better than Soil with sand caps, how would I plant the front with 1" or less? Uprooting and replants often? It's a messy prospect certainly.

If I wanted to push the level up higher and redo the wood, also, a messy prospect, with a single all in one sediment, I have no such issues and it looks nice.

I'll be trying 4-5 different stems in the coming week to test some contrast and suitability for certain sections. Over time, I'll be replacing various species with more rarer eclectic types. But if a common nice species fits the bill, no need to change.


----------



## plantbrain

Switched out the plants some, added a giant variant of Erio setaceum, it's about 2-3x the size of the typical Erio.

I think I will keep the Tonina also.


----------



## jkan0228

Whic stems did you switch out?


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> Whic stems did you switch out?


No starougyne porto velho, no A reineckii, no dwarf red lily.

Added more Erios, added large Erio setaceum and Tonina, Limnophilia guinea.
Need more Tonina and Limnpholia to fill in the space. I think in 3-4 weeks the Erio setaceum will fill in very nice.


----------



## jkan0228

Pictures? I'm asking for everyone else....


----------



## CmLaracy

Interesting journal Tom, I like the colors but it needs some continuity, or maybe it just has to fill out. Looks great though


----------



## 150EH

jkan0228 said:


> Pictures? I'm asking for everyone else....


"Drink no wine before its time" in other word you have to let the dust settle and the plants grow in a bit before you start taking photos.


----------



## plantbrain

Cloudy water, but that's all ya getting fer now.










This is the problem area:



























Still a ways to go and I might need to remove the UG and move to the far left spot.
It's too dominate at this location.

HC or some other low lying species will replace it.
Need more Tonina and L "guinea" to see how it looks more filled in, added more Erios.
I will stair case the giant Erio also next to the Red Ludwgia.


----------



## plantbrain

CmLaracy said:


> Interesting journal Tom, I like the colors but it needs some continuity, or maybe it just has to fill out. Looks great though


Yes, the left side is particularly troublesome, the Right is fine.......


----------



## jkan0228

Whats the plant in the front left?


----------



## orchidman

i liked it better before you moved the red ludwigia. now it seems off balance, with the reds all going right


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> i liked it better before you moved the red ludwigia. now it seems off balance, with the reds all going right


You mean the R wallichii?

Yes, it's off balance now........but that's the point, to try different species. I tend to work right to left, rather than left of right. I'm happy with the Erios, but the plants next to them, that's another story.

I might remove the Crypts also. The red dwarf lilies were nice and offered some leaf shape change and red color.....but the red is not to my liking.

Another red plant is P palustris, slower growing etc. Or maybe an old stand or R macrandra or narrow leaf magenta etc. 

It's a pickle.

The other side has filled in and the rear needs another trim though, so I'm about 3/4 there.

Fish are well suited to this tank.


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> Whats the plant in the front left?


Bright green thing is UG and then there's a tiny bunch of hairgrass, then the Crypt parva.


----------



## jkan0228

Sorry I meant the front right.  it's a penny wort of some sort?


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> i liked it better before you moved the red ludwigia. now it seems off balance, with the reds all going right


The other option is to move the L granulosus to where the Tonina and L guinea are now...and then pull the R wallichii where the L granulosus is now.

I might do that since both are mandatory "uproot and replant tops only" to look nice. The L granulosus handles high current well(this is an issue on that far left side).

I could also do this with the L pantanal. It's a real weedy species and I may not keep it long, I might phase it out for a Rotala macrandra or magenta that will make a nicer "bush". L pantanal is a lot of work to keep it looking orderly.


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> Sorry I meant the front right.  it's a penny wort of some sort?


Yes, the other left........haha yes, it's a pennywort, a smaller one that stays flat.

Want some?

I have some sitting here.

Grows fast too.


----------



## jkan0228

Sure. But I'm not in town for the next week due to a family emergency in Taiwan. Ill still be here. Just at a friends house. So hopefully I can pay for shipping on the first week of November.


----------



## Craigthor

I think it would look great with a solid glosso foreground and where the smaller Erios are at running back to put the UG there. I'm sure that's not waht your after but that is what I see.

Craig


----------



## doncityz

Wow. That is a nice cabinet.






JK... awesome tank...!


----------



## plantbrain

Craigthor said:


> I think it would look great with a solid glosso foreground and where the smaller Erios are at running back to put the UG there. I'm sure that's not waht your after but that is what I see.
> 
> Craig



I have a red lower growing Hygro that would work well contrasted with the UG in the rear. I'll move the UG to the far side, replacing the Crypt parva

I need to reslope that UG spot anyways.

The R wallichii would match well in the front row since it's got another green fine needle plant, the Erio "giant". Likely move that where the L granulosus is, then move that plant in that row next to the Erio row. 

I'm still undecided about what to replace the UG with.
Elatine triandra would be nice.
I have not grown that weed in about 7 years now.

It has a different growth form and is a nice brighter green, but it grows fast, well, so do many in this tank.
Question is, can it be managed somewhat easily like most of these.


----------



## malaybiswas

Elatine will probably be good with all these fast growing stems

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## plantbrain

malaybiswas said:


> Elatine will probably be good with all these fast growing stems
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Well, it's a 2 hour drive to an irrigation canal or if you know anyone with some..........:redface:???


----------



## 150EH

How can you have a tank with a drilled bottom and a sump without any standpipe or something to set the water level, I'm trying to learn about sumps and can't figure out how the water stays in the tank if there is a power failure and the pump quits, do you use check valves on each line? Thanks for the help.

I can find a video or text that outlines how to use a sump like this, they all are reef tanks and either use an overflow box or a stand pipe.


----------



## dewalltheway

Tom....what is the plant in the foreground of the above pic? I have been looking for some low growing plant for my 90 and that would go good with my scape.

Great tank btw. Love the colors. You have amazed me by the way you can get the red out of plants. Mine seem to always go green, even after reading numerous threads on it, but there are so many different ideas.:icon_roll


----------



## malaybiswas

plantbrain said:


> Well, it's a 2 hour drive to an irrigation canal or if you know anyone with some..........:redface:???


I have my 100g with the entire fg with elatine. I could have give you a whole bunch, but recently majority of them melted due to a temperature issue. They are growing back. If you want some, may be in a couple of weeks.


----------



## malaybiswas

dewalltheway said:


> Tom....what is the plant in the foreground of the above pic? I have been looking for some low growing plant for my 90 and that would go good with my scape.
> 
> Great tank btw. Love the colors. You have amazed me by the way you can get the red out of plants. Mine seem to always go green, even after reading numerous threads on it, but there are so many different ideas.:icon_roll


This is actually left side view. The plants in this 'fg' is C. parva, I think.


----------



## plantbrain

150EH said:


> How can you have a tank with a drilled bottom and a sump without any standpipe or something to set the water level, I'm trying to learn about sumps and can't figure out how the water stays in the tank if there is a power failure and the pump quits, do you use check valves on each line? Thanks for the help.
> 
> I can find a video or text that outlines how to use a sump like this, they all are reef tanks and either use an overflow box or a stand pipe.


There are no drilled holes in the tank, only a hang on over flow(CPR and CPR wet/dry) and a return pipe.


----------



## plantbrain

malaybiswas said:


> I have my 100g with the entire fg with elatine. I could have give you a whole bunch, but recently majority of them melted due to a temperature issue. They are growing back. If you want some, may be in a couple of weeks.


I will take you up on it, the cost for gas to the canal ain't worth it.
It's native to CA, but most of it is imported from Asia ironically.

If you have some plants you want in trade, I have a lot of chose from.


----------



## plantbrain

dewalltheway said:


> Tom....what is the plant in the foreground of the above pic? I have been looking for some low growing plant for my 90 and that would go good with my scape.
> 
> Great tank btw. Love the colors. You have amazed me by the way you can get the red out of plants. Mine seem to always go green, even after reading numerous threads on it, but there are so many different ideas.:icon_roll


I removed some from a clients tank, if you'd like some, Crypt parva, I have enough to make that area again at least. And unlike everything else sold on the web, this is already growing well submersed form etc. 45$ shipped takes it all which is about 12 pots worth then the submersed grow out and added biomass.

Easy plant.


----------



## malaybiswas

plantbrain said:


> I will take you up on it, the cost for gas to the canal ain't worth it.
> It's native to CA, but most of it is imported from Asia ironically.
> 
> If you have some plants you want in trade, I have a lot of chose from.


Sounds like plan. I want some ludwigia cuba and pantnal if you have. I will pm you when I am ready to trim.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## CmLaracy

plantbrain said:


> Yes, the left side is particularly troublesome, the Right is fine.......


nvrmnd, offered a suggestion without seeing the most recent pics.


----------



## plantbrain

malaybiswas said:


> Sounds like plan. I want some ludwigia cuba and pantnal if you have. I will pm you when I am ready to trim.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


I can send some of the pantanal now.

PM me for that and send me your mailing ship address asap.


----------



## plantbrain

Redid the tank last night a fair amount.
Moved the L granulosus to the right and moved the wallichii to the where that was, thinned out the back ground weeds a fair amount, tidy up the foreground weeds/trimmed, added some test plants for the rear stem plant sections, R magenta and macrandra. If they do well, I might phase a green or lesser red plant from back there(like the pantanal).

The row of red on the right makes the tank look more balanced and ordered. L granulosus/perunesis handles the current better and is a semi slow grower.


----------



## 150EH

plantbrain said:


> There are no drilled holes in the tank, only a hang on over flow(CPR and CPR wet/dry) and a return pipe.


Dang it, your 180 too, so it can't be done???? Thanks for the info.


----------



## plantbrain

Update, trimmed last night, sold off the weeds.
So this is right after a major hacking, not only when the tank is at it's prime etc.........

I got some decent ideas and did a few things. I likely will do something different where the wallichi now is, at least I can trim it anyway I want right there, grows about 2-3" a week, so I can make a nice slope with it.
But.........I want a larger different shade of a red there. 

So I got some test plants, some R macrandra and magenta. I'll grow these stems out in the background, then see how they look in that spot where the L perunesis was/wallichii is now.
I'll fill the ADA AS over the Erio cinerums and gently pull them up, this will be better than uprooting entirely and raise the soil level so they can fully expand, they get much larger than what you see here.
But that will take some time still.

I'll add some different driftwood borders on the left side and remove a little bit of the Crypt parva.
This will give a different angle/slope to the L perunesis and provide a piece of border wood for the Tonina. 

I have not yet trimmed the Giant Erio setaceum yet, I'm letting it grow more and hopefully I'll get some side sprouts from the stumps.
So it will be maintained at a lower height.

I also have some Propersinaca palustris in the rear also, which I might use in the front somewhere or replace another plant if I like it/if it can serve a good location.
So I have the P palustris, the R macrandra and the R magenta to work with in that location where the wallichii is. I suppose I can also use the L pantanal as well......but it's such a fast grower, not sure about it.


































Close up of the UG:


----------



## jkan0228

Magnificent! How is it that you manage the R. Wallichi from getting blown around all the time since its so skinny? 

And do stems need a nice deep, 2"+ substrate? Since I don't think my stems are doing so good with the substrate they have even though they're about the same depth as yours.


----------



## zachary908

Amazing as always, Tom!


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> Magnificent! How is it that you manage the R. Wallichi from getting blown around all the time since its so skinny?
> 
> And do stems need a nice deep, 2"+ substrate? Since I don't think my stems are doing so good with the substrate they have even though they're about the same depth as yours.


The current is less over on that left side vs the right. 
It's nice if the stem plants/any plant has a deeper sediment depth, but this is a shallow tank, so I opted for shallow sediment in the front, in the rear it's 5-6" deep.


----------



## jkan0228

Yea my Pogostemon Stellatus and Alternanthera sp. (i think, pics in my journal) haven't grown much in the past 2 weeks. EI dosing, high light and co2. Sorry to derail


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> Yea my Pogostemon Stellatus and Alternanthera sp. (i think, pics in my journal) haven't grown much in the past 2 weeks. EI dosing, high light and co2. Sorry to derail


With some many reds and larger similar leaves, I removed the A reineckii, it's a nice plant and I've found it useful in some aquascapes, but not this one as much. I needed some textural greens and some different shades of reds.

P stellata will grow easily and like a weed once it gets going. If you have poor CO2 and not enough ferts, it will not grow well.

I trim that and the M matogrossense the most. 
I am thinking of various more eclectic replacements for those.
But they MUST fit the bill with respect to the over all look and ease of care.


----------



## jkan0228

Yea I've recently killed off a few of my amanos. Not sure if its from the copper in the millers or too much co2. But I lowered the co2 to a lime green in the drop checker so they should be fine. Do you dose millers or plantex? Or just a recipe of your own?


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> Yea I've recently killed off a few of my amanos. Not sure if its from the copper in the millers or too much co2. But I lowered the co2 to a lime green in the drop checker so they should be fine. Do you dose millers or plantex? Or just a recipe of your own?


Plantex since switching maybe 7-8 years ago from Tropica, then I dope the Plantex with DTPA and Fe Gluconate at by volume: 6:2:2 teaspoons in a liter of hot water and about 20-30mls of excel to prevent mold.

I dose 45 mls 3-4x a week.


----------



## jkan0228

How about KNO3 and KH2PO4? Do you use solutions for all your dosing?


----------



## Hyzer

I have been lurking for a while and just can't help myself.... this tank is beautiful! My favorite of yours thus far.


----------



## malaybiswas

plantbrain said:


> I can send some of the pantanal now.
> 
> PM me for that and send me your mailing ship address asap.


PMed. Your UG looks thick enough to be a midground plant


----------



## TactusMortus

dewalltheway said:


> I just can't figure out how you are able to make your parva grow perfectly. I love mine however it grows every which way and ends up looking rather messy.


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> How about KNO3 and KH2PO4? Do you use solutions for all your dosing?


All dry, no need to make a watery mess. The only timer I make solutions is for auto dosing systems.

EI is not required to be particular micromanaged..........it's meant to be non limiting, thus gives the management the largest user error of any method available. And clearly, when used correctly, there's no risk.


----------



## plantbrain

malaybiswas said:


> PMed. Your UG looks thick enough to be a midground plant


Yes, I'm pondering what to do about it as it grows. 
I've edge trimmed it, but I'll either have to try grass mowing it, or uproot and replace clumps. Gloss I can pick at and trim down carefully, but this I am less certain about.

I've not seen too many examples of this over the long term.


----------



## plantbrain

TactusMortus said:


> dewalltheway said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just can't figure out how you are able to make your parva grow perfectly. I love mine however it grows every which way and ends up looking rather messy.
> 
> 
> 
> Just add a lot and wait.
> If CO2 is poor it will not do well and get GSA, if the traces are dosed high, then the leaves will be more upright and look better.
> 
> Crypts really like and thrive at high traces.
Click to expand...


----------



## TactusMortus

Thanks, I am going to start dosing my traces then as I haven't been dosing anything.


----------



## plantbrain

TactusMortus said:


> Thanks, I am going to start dosing my traces then as I haven't been dosing anything.


120 gal full of crypts? I'd certainly dose a lot of traces, they appear to be very tolerant of high metals in the water, copper included.


----------



## antbug

I know you said you're working on the Giant Erio, but they really pull my eye to that section and I'm not sure about them next to the other erios. Then I see that hill of UG that just looks out of place. Have you thought about moving the UG to the right front where the hydrocotyle (<--guessing?) is? Or maybe switch the parva and the UG? What about scraping the UG all together and replacing it with HC?

In the end, I wish my tank looked half as good as yours. One day!


----------



## plantbrain

Moving the UG to the C parva location is still on the table.
Both handle high flow/current well on that side.

T?he contrast from the Red L perunesis and the green white UG is nice also. 
The larger erios have not been trimmed yet. So they look a little out of place still till I trim.

I may move the Tonina to the Large Erio spot at some point. Giant Ambulia would be a replacement for the erios, but it grows so fast......


----------



## TactusMortus

I think you have OCD like me constantly moving and adjusting things. I have to say it looks better and better with every adjustment you have made.


----------



## 150EH

The new scape looks very clean and well done, and it looks like the shrimp are just loving the UG and I like it too.


----------



## antbug

Yeah, if you moved the ug to the parva spot, you'd have to move the tonina as well. I think a cool ug hill would look nice on one side or the other.


----------



## TactusMortus

plantbrain said:


> 120 gal full of crypts? I'd certainly dose a lot of traces, they appear to be very tolerant of high metals in the water, copper included.


How much microplex would you be dosing for a 120 gallon tank will all crypts no co2 and medium lighting?


----------



## plantbrain

TactusMortus said:


> I think you have OCD like me constantly moving and adjusting things. I have to say it looks better and better with every adjustment you have made.


And that is the process, you have to try it and see. 
Sometimes it might seem like a good idea....but later, "ahhh.....Io not like that there etc......".

And it should improve with each change done.

This is a lot of the point to the entire journal, to illustrate this process.

Rather than the final product and the start with a few pretty pics in between only....as is so often the case..........


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Yeah, if you moved the ug to the parva spot, you'd have to move the tonina as well. I think a cool ug hill would look nice on one side or the other.


Yes, or as a mid ground spot too.
This would require some Erio cin's being moved.

I'm still mulling, and I'll likely make the decision on the fly once I get in there.


----------



## plantbrain

TactusMortus said:


> How much microplex would you be dosing for a 120 gallon tank will all crypts no co2 and medium lighting?


Have not used it, but likely similar to Plantex concotions.
Maybe 20mls 3x a week or so if the tank is doing well.


----------



## TactusMortus

plantbrain said:


> Have not used it, but likely similar to Plantex concotions.
> Maybe 20mls 3x a week or so if the tank is doing well.


Thanks Tom!


----------



## plantbrain

Some clown who claimed someone else's method as their own.........claimed EI dosing is not suitable to aquascaping and gardening since it produced "too much" growth thus was not manageable.

This is very manageable and requires the same level of work as any ADA like tank. 

Good plant growth is the goal after all and using LESS light is wiser/more stable than limiting nutrients or "the tail wagging the dog".


----------



## nonconductive

been hanging out at apc?


----------



## plantbrain

nonconductive said:


> been hanging out at apc?



I told Art I'd never come back. Not been back since I was banned (before it got sold). 

Grape vine folks kept pestering about the comment recently, I heard this same crap years ago. Easy to falsify and the tank here clearly does that.


----------



## plantbrain

I looked at the UG and the left side today and think I'll do a U shaped wrap around the L. perunisis, this will look nice and I'll make some more room for the Erio cinerum row also as well as allow me to shore up the height to accent those plants as well.

In the rear corner of the Left, I have a low red hygro that is very well suited and will contrast well with UG, Anubias coffeeifolia, Bolbitus, Myriophyllum etc.

In the UG region for a replacement:
I suppose a more interesting shaped group of HC with it crawling over some wood etc would add something more interesting than a mere flat rug of HC. I am not limited by Dutch rules, but draw heavily from that style.
The other plant I have is the E triandra. This plant is semi weedy, so I might try it in a clients tank also.

I have plans to try many of the same approaches here to the 350 Gallon manzy tank I have for a client.
They did not like the Congos and they want something "different", likely some Discus, which they will likely kill.

So the parva might be removed permanently. I like it, but for now, it has lost its place in this scape I'm afraid.

Regarding the Macrandra: I can move the wallichii to the rear and pull that of the magenta up front in that row.
I can also simply allow it to fill in more and make a contrast with the Hydrothrix in front of it and then P stellata and some others in the rear with fine needle leaves.

This tank is not a PITA to grow..........many assume stem plant tanks are, but they do not have to be so. Some weekly care is required, but many times you can go 2 weeks or more for many species.
Learning how each group responds to different pruning methods is what makes the style a challenge. I also do NOT HAVE and grow out aquarium nursery for plants, what I have must be grown inside this aquarium.
That's my rule. The tank must sustain the growth of each species to a high level.

I believe this rule to be reasonable.

As far as NO3's, well, I dose 15ppm at a time, typically 3x a week.
So the plants will be at least at 15-20ppm for the most part but it will drop I suspect and never will go beyond 30ppm or so, I do larger than 50% weekly water changes, 2x a week if I trim hard the following day.

Also, news on the "giant" variety of Erio setaceum. It's branching at the top, so I'll have a few new stems after a month or so.
This will fill in this space better and give me a chance to trim and I've been patient with the plant. Well, it's only 2 weeks old in the tank.......so not that patient really


----------



## zachary908

Tom, let me know when you have some more good sized L. Pantanal available.. I will be needing some soon.


----------



## alvagoldbook

I've never been a big fan of plant colors other than green. This tank changed my mind. Gorgeous! I love the Echinodorus vesuvius in there. One of my favorite all time plants.


----------



## plantbrain

zachary908 said:


> Tom, let me know when you have some more good sized L. Pantanal available.. I will be needing some soon.


It'll be awhile yet, I have nothing but a forest of stumps right now, so it'll be a week till they resprout and then another to get 3-4" and then another till they are 6-7" etc.


----------



## plantbrain

alvagoldbook said:


> I've never been a big fan of plant colors other than green. This tank changed my mind. Gorgeous! I love the Echinodorus vesuvius in there. One of my favorite all time plants.


Well, some "red planted" tanks can get gaudy.

The goal is contrast here, and some design in the color schematic(what I'm not sure other than it looks good or .......not) This can be a rather abstract thing or folks can dissect the snot out of it.

Having lived with some artist in my past, I am not the type to justify my work at a critique while the others lob cans of spam at me and try and tear it down as best they can, we have a version of this in Science. I'm okay with that and understand it. I'm less tolerant of the game in Art.

There is a purpose to it in each field........ 

My approach attempts to leave things much more raw but still going back and redoing things as needed. It's more the method and journey itself rather than some scheme and forethought. There's some of that generally, but the specifics are far far from defined.


I do not like all red plants or more than say 40-50% red.

I want some Diversity, Nice bright groups, different plants and unusual species not often kept or not kept at a decent high level. This type of scape is easy to replicate and have it look different every time, because many folks like different species, and the wood pieces define the shape and the regions to be planted.

These defined areas are large enough for decent sized dutch style groupings, or stair cased "streets". So there's little artsy justification for all this........it's more a response to using the hardscaping wood to keep ther weeds in their place.

How to take collectoritus and do a decent looking aesthetically pleasing scape, not an easy task. But this is one way.

I like shades of green a lot.
Reds are good to falsify certain myths that are pervasive in the hobby.

The other aspect was is if EI is suitable for nice gardening and control of many so called hard to grow species, foreground plants and stem plants. Past failures are due to CO2/light etc, not the ferts.

That much is painfully clear here.

Light and CO2 are the keys, ferts are actually fairly well down on the list, something I've stated for a very very long time now.


----------



## orchidman

What an inspirational speech!

In all seriousness though, I want to get some Manzy and do something similar in my 10g. Of course with way less plants. 

You can call me Bob


----------



## plantbrain

It's just a semi practical garden.

You should be able to get more than mere aesthetics out of an aquarium.


----------



## BlueJack

plantbrain said:


>


The rainbows are a nice addition to the red army you got going there roud:


----------



## jkan0228

Btw how are you running that MP20? Full power?


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> Btw how are you running that MP20? Full power?


I have it dialed down at about 1/2 way.


----------



## plantbrain

I removed the UG rug...so if anyone wants high grade UG, now is the time to buy(see the powerseller's thread).

I made a U shaped group of it wrapping around the L perunesis.
I might pull the Erios into a larger group in the foreground vs having them as a row. Still thinking on that one.


----------



## plantbrain

Pics tonight or tomorrow..........I have to scare small children tonight after all, my favorite day I can do this legally:icon_twis


----------



## ch3fb0yrdee

Its so crazy how your red cherries are bloodshot red.


----------



## plantbrain

ch3fb0yrdee said:


> Its so crazy how your red cherries are bloodshot red.


I vodka dose like the reefers

I'll be redoing a few rows and might get some more giant Erio for a longer row of it. I like that plant, slower growth(yea!).

I might get some smaller Erio setaceum also to try.

I have to mull through th driftwood piles to find 1-2 right sized pieces to make the Fissidens shape foreground moss on wood look I'm after. I got plenty of driftwood though


----------



## nonconductive

must be nice to mull through 100's of pieces of wood to find just the right one (for free!).


----------



## audioaficionado

Time, gas, vehicle wear and tear... They weren't really free, but it is awesome to have the pick of the wood pile whenever you want.

Luckily my local manzanita isn't covered with snow during the winter. I need to start prospecting and amassing my own wood pile


----------



## plantbrain

nonconductive said:


> must be nice to mull through 100's of pieces of wood to find just the right one (for free!).


Main reason is to simply find stuff for myself, but hard to not take the rest.


----------



## 150EH

plantbrain said:


> I vodka dose like the reefers


Do they really use Vodka in a reef tank, if so why do they do it, this stuff should be in a book of true but wierd facts.


----------



## plantbrain

150EH said:


> Do they really use Vodka in a reef tank, if so why do they do it, this stuff should be in a book of true but wierd facts.


Big time, take a look at RC forums, it's a meg thread from hell.

Heck, we use kitty litter, bleach our plants, all sorts of manures, meth lab type ferts and chemicals, have enough equipment to grow a medical weed facility.


----------



## plantbrain

I mowed the Gloss for the first time, used those curved scissors. I mow down to the nub. This is where ADA AS alone really helps, because it's soft and does not dull your scissors.

So you can trim without worrying about trashing you sharp scissors.

I swaped the Red Ludwigia red with the giant Erio setaceum. I trimmed the Red lud down pretty low, added a nice slope of extra fresh ADA AS to give more depth to the rows.

I'll get some pics up this Sat. I want to show the ugly post trimmed Gloss as an illustration of how to manage the weed. and it is ............quite the weed. This will help folks to realize more about how to keep and maintain these weeds over the long term.

Hopefully I'll have the Fissidens and the 2 other small pieces of wood picked out also.

Lately I've been doing the water change sand full ferts AM, then trim and change things in the PM of the same day. I've typically done all the work, then did a nice large water change and ferts thereafter. Not sure if it does anything, but just how it has gone so far.


----------



## TactusMortus

plantbrain said:


> Big time, take a look at RC forums, it's a meg thread from hell.
> 
> Heck, we use kitty litter, bleach our plants, all sorts of manures, meth lab type ferts and chemicals, have enough equipment to grow a medical weed facility.


I always wonder what the neighbors must think of me when my garage door opens and they can see the glow of my lighting coming from half a dozen tanks. Then there is the constant packages being delivered to the house. 

Which reminds me did you ever get that parva out? Just want to make sure I am around to get it.


----------



## plantbrain

TactusMortus said:


> I always wonder what the neighbors must think of me when my garage door opens and they can see the glow of my lighting coming from half a dozen tanks. Then there is the constant packages being delivered to the house.
> 
> Which reminds me did you ever get that parva out? Just want to make sure I am around to get it.


I think I did, if not, I have more


----------



## zergling

plantbrain said:


> I want to show the ugly post trimmed Gloss as an illustration of how to manage the weed. and it is ............quite the weed. This will help folks to realize more about how to keep and maintain these weeds over the long term.


Glosso is the wisteria of the foreground plants. 

Hundreds of shrimplets are hating you now Tom, for mowing down their favorite hiding spot.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## !shadow!

That pennywort? is a nice touch on the right hand side. I think it would look nice if it was the entire carpet but that's just my 0.02


----------



## dtsuyuki

Hey, Tom, being that your substrate is pretty low in in the foreground of your tank, how difficult has is been to trim the UG without uprooting it? Even with deeper substrate, UG is a pain, so I can't imagine...

The tank looks great, BTW.


----------



## zergling

Tom - did you treat the wood before using it in the tank? If so, how?

Not sure if this was brought up somewhere in this thread and I just missed it....


----------



## plantbrain

!shadow! said:


> That pennywort? is a nice touch on the right hand side. I think it would look nice if it was the entire carpet but that's just my 0.02


I really have not seen folks do that with this plant, but they could easily and it would fill in fast also.

Be nice to have following some wood or rock hardscape in the mid ground and then extend forwards from there. Undulating in and out.


----------



## plantbrain

dtsuyuki said:


> Hey, Tom, being that your substrate is pretty low in in the foreground of your tank, how difficult has is been to trim the UG without uprooting it? Even with deeper substrate, UG is a pain, so I can't imagine...
> 
> The tank looks great, BTW.


Well, it does grow fairly slow, so patience seems to be the biggest issue. I think one of the reasons for success is the high # of shrimp, Amanos and fire, and good CO2, consistent care etc.

My old 120 gal was a PITA. Things would go well for a time, then something always caused an issue. So I redid everything. Who knows specifically what it was..........I did not even care after messing with it for a few months, I just did a redo. It's what I typically do for a client, so well.......I did the same type of thing, build anew from the ground up and stay on top of it.

I've had good luck with UG in the past, but never really had it in larger tanks.
It takes awhile to get going.

I've never mowed it like I did with the gloss example above. I must try that trim method with it though. I might try one edge of the new rug and see. I added plugs like before, but this will take 2-3 months before it looks like this again.

I suppose I could add more light, but then all those background weeds will be a PITA.


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Tom - did you treat the wood before using it in the tank? If so, how?
> 
> Not sure if this was brought up somewhere in this thread and I just missed it....


I collect and sell driftwood, so yes. I have ample amounts to chose from and I soak then typically 2-4 weeks, I'm slow to commit on hardscape materials I'll admit.

But I leach most of the wood good prior to use, then the shrimp pick the snot out of it and it's well cured in a month. I also tend to do large frequent water changes anyhow, but 3x a week is typical for new ADA AS tank's.

Shrimp/Fish go in 2-3 weeks after.


----------



## plantbrain

Moved the R. wallichii in the back, pulled the Red myrio up front where the Wallichii was, might move the downoi and swap with the Erio cinerum's. 
Then do away with the fissidens wood foreground.

Pondering.........lots of choices here:angryfire
Well, not that bad, *but there's so many facets to dutch plant contrast and arrangements.*


----------



## BlueJack

plantbrain said:


> Moved the R. wallichii in the back, pulled the Red myrio up front where the Wallichii was, might move the downoi and swap with the Erio cinerum's.
> Then do away with the fissidens wood foreground.
> 
> Pondering.........lots of choices here:angryfire
> Well, not that bad, *but there's so many facets to dutch plant contrast and arrangements.*


R. Wallichi is such a beautiful and unique plant...but it's kinda tough to scape with. Near the back is where I think it looks best. :thumbsup:


----------



## plantbrain

BlueJack said:


> R. Wallichi is such a beautiful and unique plant...but it's kinda tough to scape with. Near the back is where I think it looks best. :thumbsup:


Yes, I have to agree, but I do like to try different things and trim some typical background plants lower and see how they look for mid and foreground weeds.

This plant is bets suited in the back, so a broad leaf Green plant looks better in front of it. I have some of the shiny green Ech agustafolia "vesuvius" in front and some broader leaf green hygro something or the other in the back.
The Red milfoil looks nice with a nice copper color red hue and lends itself very well to topping.


----------



## plantbrain

After clearing, I think I'll move the Red myri to the rear and make the P. palustris in that spot instead, mermaid weed is a common plant to me......but "rare and hard to grow" for most outside of the south East USA.

It gets a nice orange color and stems tend to be well behaved, slower growing.


----------



## zergling

plantbrain said:


> I collect and sell driftwood, so yes. I have ample amounts to chose from and I soak then typically 2-4 weeks, I'm slow to commit on hardscape materials I'll admit.
> 
> But I leach most of the wood good prior to use, then the shrimp pick the snot out of it and it's well cured in a month. I also tend to do large frequent water changes anyhow, but 3x a week is typical for new ADA AS tank's.
> 
> Shrimp/Fish go in 2-3 weeks after.


I figured that's what you're doing. How do you soak the larger pieces? Do you have a tub in your backyard or something?

(I personally just plop wood straight into my tanks, as I also do frequent 50+% water changes in the first week or so)


----------



## The Gipper

Just read the entire journel great scape as usual


----------



## audioaficionado

I got one of those 24" tall narrow plastic kitchen garbage pails and soak 'em in that. It's still low enough gallonage so I can drag it over to the bathtub to fill & bail out as needed.


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> I figured that's what you're doing. How do you soak the larger pieces? Do you have a tub in your backyard or something?
> 
> (I personally just plop wood straight into my tanks, as I also do frequent 50+% water changes in the first week or so)


Just a large storage plastic bin, garbage cans etc.


----------



## plantbrain

Added another 30 Dwarf rainbows, the school seems more at ease now.

Removed a piece of wood that's not serving any function at this point and is simply covered on the right mid rear section, this will allow for easier pruning and better care for the plants on that corner.


----------



## plantbrain

Post 1 week for the Gloss:










Tank has had some changes:


----------



## orchidman

looks great as ever! i like the moss!


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> looks great as ever! i like the moss!


I need a bit more and I am getting some from a local SF member here.
The wood 3 fingers will look better once it grows in and looks thicker. 

In otherwords, it looks better than the pic shows and I just mucked up the tank putting them in.

Even if the wood was left alone....the look is nice and adds contrast and some vertical depth. 

Some want me to put HC between, but that's too busy and crowded, the groups need to be a certain size or the over all impression is lost for me.

That is one of the key differences with Dutch style for myself, the groups need to be ample sizing, not just a stem or two here or there........that looks like manure then.

I've got some more work and more plants to add and fill in.........as well as allow some others to grow. The design and layout is getting there and the progress is steady and relatively faster than I would have predicted. 

I just hope the R magenta or I find a nice little cherry red plant other than pantanal that works in another spot. I do/find that, I'm doing well and will make the goal I had. I have some mermaid weed coming in, so that will perk up and make a nice background plant. Also a few others and hopefully some more Tonina. 

More moss will help give the look on those branches I'm after and Fissidens is a good seller/darker than other species.


----------



## lollerpoop

Wow what an improvement.
This is definetly better and its like you said about the contrast,youve enhanced it pretty well.
I really like how my eyes gets drawn to the red,its like a passage or something (english is not my main language so im not good at describing stuff)
Though....im not sure about the moss being in the front...


----------



## plantbrain

lollerpoop said:


> Wow what an improvement.
> This is definetly better and its like you said about the contrast,youve enhanced it pretty well.
> I really like how my eyes gets drawn to the red,its like a passage or something (english is not my main language so im not good at describing stuff)
> Though....im not sure about the moss being in the front...


I still might make a row of moss somewhere and do away with it, but the shape I like.


----------



## fusiongt

I like the ADA style but I actually like this more, great job! It looks like gorgeous with the red and I really like the areas where there is no plants. I bet your shrimp love those areas too (they'll get stronger lifting up those rocks and eating the algae hehe). Not sure how to describe it but your tank just makes me happy looking at it!

Can we get some close ups of the fish? They're hard to see (and what kind are they, sorry if I missed it I'll go back and read the description). I always like good balance with beautiful plants, lots of shrimp, and of course a healthy school of fish  Your tank definitely has all those!


----------



## nonconductive

looks awesome tom. that glosso recovers fast!


----------



## orchidman

plantbrain said:


> I need a bit more and I am getting some from a local SF member here.
> The wood 3 fingers will look better once it grows in and looks thicker.
> 
> In otherwords, it looks better than the pic shows and I just mucked up the tank putting them in.
> 
> Even if the wood was left alone....the look is nice and adds contrast and some vertical depth.
> 
> Some want me to put HC between, but that's too busy and crowded, the groups need to be a certain size or the over all impression is lost for me.
> 
> That is one of the key differences with Dutch style for myself, the groups need to be ample sizing, not just a stem or two here or there........that looks like manure then.
> 
> I've got some more work and more plants to add and fill in.........as well as allow some others to grow. The design and layout is getting there and the progress is steady and relatively faster than I would have predicted.
> 
> I just hope the R magenta or I find a nice little cherry red plant other than pantanal that works in another spot. I do/find that, I'm doing well and will make the goal I had. I have some mermaid weed coming in, so that will perk up and make a nice background plant. Also a few others and hopefully some more Tonina.
> 
> More moss will help give the look on those branches I'm after and Fissidens is a good seller/darker than other species.


sounds like a plan! it will be awesome!

when you plant stems, how close together do you plant them?


----------



## plantbrain

fusiongt said:


> I like the ADA style but I actually like this more, great job! It looks like gorgeous with the red and I really like the areas where there is no plants. I bet your shrimp love those areas too (they'll get stronger lifting up those rocks and eating the algae hehe). Not sure how to describe it but your tank just makes me happy looking at it!
> 
> Can we get some close ups of the fish? They're hard to see (and what kind are they, sorry if I missed it I'll go back and read the description). I always like good balance with beautiful plants, lots of shrimp, and of course a healthy school of fish  Your tank definitely has all those!


I think that might be because there are fewer examples of this style than nature style.

But........nice examples of specific plants appeal to most everyone, but then again, so does the essence of a nice inclusive scape. 

I try to blend a bit of the nice overall impression with the individual aspects and it's a bit of trial and error, but the progression does occur and is moving forward.

Eventually it'll settle and mellow, I might change a few things here or there as new species come along that are suitable, but I like to keep the general layouts fairly stable for several years.

I'm not a new scape once a year type of aquarist. 
I do not have time.

The shrimp have some close ups. As far as fish, they should be videoed, not photographed, but that means I need to add a flash, there's just not high enough light to have the higher shutter speeds and decent color/grain.


----------



## plantbrain

nonconductive said:


> looks awesome tom. that glosso recovers fast!


Faster than I'd predicted.

I'm quite pleased as I was never really planning on having it in the tank, and was growing it out for another tank.

Now I will keep it as a permanent plant in here.


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> sounds like a plan! it will be awesome!
> 
> when you plant stems, how close together do you plant them?


I guess just where they just not quite overlap if you look down from above.......that view is really the one I work with the most.

Good density and light capture.

On the edges and on the wood, I do not care, but where the plants are, nice thick growth is a goal.


----------



## orchidman

so just were the leaves are touching on the edges?


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> so just were the leaves are touching on the edges?


Yea, pretty much, a little here or there, sometimes I just grab 3-4 stems bunches and in they go and the above looks similar, I'm hardly meticulous.


----------



## orchidman

cool  thanks alot. i just wanted to make sure im doing it right


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> cool  thanks alot. i just wanted to make sure im doing it right


Fear not........ this kind of stuff is rarely illustrated well, ADA tries hard to show this in the AJ, but many do not see or subscribe.
Many hobbyists are in the same boat as you and well, in fact most all of us. We all started off worried about how to trim etc.
VERY UNSURE of ourselves. I was. 

So many are not good at trimming methods, and really do not know how to do it. Many worry they will make a mistake or cause more harm than good. Once you see it in person or try it yourself(the real test)..........then it becomes old hat and makes your life much easier.

But it's hard to find such stuff, but there are videos out there etc.
Local clubs are VERY useful to have the more experienced members show the newbies how to do this.

Dosing and all that is easy....a good CO2 in person how to, light etc....that and how to trim.......etc, or scape......these are more important.


----------



## 2in10

Looks fantastic, the changes should only improve upon that.


----------



## plantbrain

Update on that trimmed patch of Gloss.


















You can see that there's only maybe 1/2 or less of ADA AS in the front of this tank, I add barely "just enough".


----------



## orchidman

i just got some glosso. hope mine looks as nice as yours!


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> i just got some glosso. hope mine looks as nice as yours!


heck, it's a weed.
Hard to stop it!


----------



## orchidman

hopefully that rings true for me! i just planted it, and boy was that fun! *sarcasm


----------



## plantbrain

2 weeks post trim gloss:










Fish:









And the R macarndra that's coming along in the rear. I plan on making a nice wedge triangle ground from the mid to the rear. 
Then R walichii going to other way.

This should look nice and fix some of the issue I dislike in the back ground.


----------



## orchidman

the macrandra is loking really nice! and that glosso is lovely!


----------



## doncityz

Ooo... the famous Tom Barr is here. Hello there.
Quick question.










Does any of ur fish jumped out wish that kind of water level?


----------



## plantbrain

I have lost 3 Rainbows in a few months.
Not as bad as I'd thought. I have glass lids but use them Nov- Mar for reduction of humidity.


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> the macrandra is loking really nice! and that glosso is lovely!


The R macrandra is doing better than I'd anticipated. It was really stunted at the LFS.........but has recovered. It has a nicer hue a sort of crazy mauve pink color versus the old copperish color I've seen with folk's in the SFBAAPS back in the late 1990's and early 2000's.

It's not a deep cherry red, I know what to do to get that effect/color, but I'd have to allow it to creep on the surface a lot and then trim, then take the pic etc. Sort of cheating if you ask me.

I still like the color and form a lot, the magenta I have ......I might phase out.
It has a nicer deeper rich color, but is a tad too close to other reds I have. 

I was thinking about NOT adding a 3rd red row plant and focusing on a nice patch in the background plants...this will add some depth and pull the eye back beyond the mid ground.


----------



## orchidman

i really like it whatever you are doing to it! your colors are just so awesome, its unreal!

i think the 3rd row of reds would look really nice!


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> i really like it whatever you are doing to it! your colors are just so awesome, its unreal!
> 
> i think the 3rd row of reds would look really nice!


I have some options to work with and try out. That's the nice thing about the tank, replacements are easy.


----------



## 10gallonplanted

I think some sort of red plant should go in the places I outlined. Just an idea.


----------



## doncityz

I don't think its a good idea to put red plant there. THough i think putting some HC there would be great. So you have glosso on the right, and HC on the left to fill in all the soil.
Just an idea as well.


----------



## plantbrain

A dark deep forest green of Fissidens will draw the eye well to that spot, perhaps you do not yet see it as the moss grows out, I do though.

HC is not allowed.

Just wait for the plants to catch up.........be patient, you will see how Fissidens grows out nicely and can be trimmed.

Fissidens is also worth far MORE than HC. I have HC elsewgere in other tanks.
I have plenty small leaf brigth green plants as is.
Leaving some open space in front also helps the scheme and design, it's not about planting every sqaure inch of available space. It helps separate groups and makes it look tidier.


----------



## orchidman

plantbrain said:


> I have some options to work with and try out. That's the nice thing about the tank, replacements are easy.


whatever you do im sure it will look awesome! and i cant wait


----------



## RiseAbove

i love this tank and the colors in it. def. inspiration!


----------



## doncityz

plantbrain said:


> A dark deep forest green of Fissidens will draw the eye well to that spot, perhaps you do not yet see it as the moss grows out, I do though.
> 
> HC is not allowed.
> 
> Just wait for the plants to catch up.........be patient, you will see how Fissidens grows out nicely and can be trimmed.
> 
> Fissidens is also worth far MORE than HC. I have HC elsewgere in other tanks.
> I have plenty small leaf brigth green plants as is.
> Leaving some open space in front also helps the scheme and design, it's not about planting every sqaure inch of available space. It helps separate groups and makes it look tidier.












I get what you mean... real pretty moss.

Hey Tom, do you know of any red leafed plants that can do well in low tech (med light, no co2)?


----------



## plantbrain

doncityz said:


> I get what you mean... real pretty moss.
> 
> Hey Tom, do you know of any red leafed plants that can do well in low tech (med light, no co2)?


A reineckii did great in my sister's non CO2 tank for 7 years.

Main thing is to have non aggressive growing species in conjunction with other species for non CO2. You can grow most any plant in a non CO2 tank, but you will have trouble combing species since are MUCH better at low CO2 and light gather than others and effectively out compete for both light and/or CO2.

If they do that, then nutrients are not even close.........

The tank I posted is my old 60 gal cube, so growing Fissidens is quite easy for me, it became a weed in that tank fairly fast. 
The largest obstacle is really gardening and keep it looking nice and not invade and make a mess elsewhere in the tank.

It'll expand and fill in the area fairly well.
In person perhaps it's a better match than the pic shows also.


----------



## Dempsey

plantbrain said:


>


Tom,

The tank is looking awesome as always! 

What is this?


----------



## doncityz

plantbrain said:


> A reineckii did great in my sister's non CO2 tank for 7 years.
> 
> Main thing is to have non aggressive growing species in conjunction with other species for non CO2. You can grow most any plant in a non CO2 tank, but you will have trouble combing species since are MUCH better at low CO2 and light gather than others and effectively out compete for both light and/or CO2.
> 
> If they do that, then nutrients are not even close.........
> 
> The tank I posted is my old 60 gal cube, so growing Fissidens is quite easy for me, it became a weed in that tank fairly fast.
> The largest obstacle is really gardening and keep it looking nice and not invade and make a mess elsewhere in the tank.
> 
> It'll expand and fill in the area fairly well.
> In person perhaps it's a better match than the pic shows also.


Thanks for your advices. reineckii it is then. 

Dempsey, that thing is a thingamajigga (i don't know what's its called) to easily see everything underneath the water surface (it removes light reflection from the water surface) - much like wearing a goggle and go for a coral diving.


----------



## plantbrain

Dempsey said:


> Tom,
> 
> The tank is looking awesome as always!
> 
> What is this?


The plant is Rotala macrandra, CPR frag surface viewer.


----------



## chad320

plantbrain said:


> The plant is Rotala macrandra, CPR frag surface viewer.


 Oh boy, and I been using a cup


----------



## doncityz

"CPR frag surface viewer".

Noted.


----------



## plantbrain

I suppose you can simply turn off all the flow and look ..........I love Lake Tahoe on a super clam day without waves, the plants are awesome, P. rhicardsoni look really pretty. But in the water is always best, the water is a bit of sack a shrinker. 7mm wet suit is advised. I'll be out in Dec to do some work in the lake. 

I got some new plants and will assess them for the 120 Gal locations etc.


----------



## orchidman

what plants did you get?


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> what plants did you get?


Smaller sized Erio setaceum, R butterfly, some polygonum red.

Need lots of choices

Once I get enough of the right color schemes and textures, then I can spend more time just pruning.

I made a nice path with the Rotala macrandra which just needs maybe 1-2 weeks to grow in nice. I got some from AFA also, it looks the same coloration as mine but I have more thicker growth and fuller branching.

Tonina I need to find a home for, I like this plant and it grows well for me.
Pulled some of the L pantanal out from the rear and might try that in a few spots that are easier to access due to frequent trim requirements.

I'm going to need to cull some species down for sure, maybe 3-5 species I have now, but want to see how they look first.


----------



## plantbrain

I am going to try out less flow as the return is still taking in 900-1000gph flow rate.

So I plan on removing the Vortech for awhile.

The Erio giant setaceum seem to do a little better and some of the other stem plants seem a little better without the directional flow on the front.

I might place the vortech elsewhere out of view and near the back where the return is.


----------



## plantbrain

Today is the 1st day without the vortech, the Erio setaceum seems to respond well out of the intense flow.

It will make a nice path on the streets where the giant erio was.


----------



## dafil

Mr. Barr,what do you use for such a surfase movement?


----------



## plantbrain

dafil said:


> Mr. Barr,what do you use for such a surfase movement?


Just a clear PVC 3/4" return , I was using the Vortech MP20.

Fire shrimp feeding:


----------



## plantbrain

Whacked back the Hydrothrix and a few others, trimmed the edges of the Gloss. I trimmed the UG nicely where I planted plugs. This looks much better than raggy looking plugs etc.

The small Erio setaceum are doing well, I'll have to split and sell some of the Erio Cinerums soon also. Trimmed some of the Downoi and replanted the scraps. 

Also trimmed the heck out of the red Ludwigia. 

Removed the R magenta, the R butterfly likely will be removed once I get the Ammannia gracilius in that spot.

I like the Ech vesuvius, but might move or remove it and keep the Tonina. 
Placed the Vortech in the rear next to the filter return outflow and turned it down a bit.

So I still need to get more smaller Erios and some A gracilius to play with to see if I like them, the Ploygonum pink is a nice plant that I'll keep for a bit to see if there's a good contrast and spot for it.

Fish and shrimp health is nothing short of excellent.
The Fires are just as intense as normal RCS. 
I think I might even need to remove some of the Amanos since they are more aggressive to the plants.


----------



## jkan0228

Where did you get the clear PVC?


----------



## orchidman

sounds great! pics when you do please!

i planted glosso about a week ago. should i trim it, or let it grow more first?


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> Where did you get the clear PVC?


US Plastics


----------



## Dempsey

Besides the plants looking AWESOME as always, your RCS are super red also. 

Mine seem to breed small and stay small... They have gotten allot more color since I moved them into my 75. I am hoping that their size changes also.

I hope that changing/increasing the lighting doesn't spook them too much...


----------



## Studman0143

I'm going to be honest and say that this is one of my favorite tanks I have seen on this Forum. I like how you stated that some things in this tank aren't perfect, but you're not here to enter a contest or present it to anybody but you, and that's awesome. Every tank does not have to follow every rule.

I love the fish and shrimp selections, great positioning with the plants. I like that you've taken sections between branches and put certain plants there. Just a fantastic tank to look at overall. Definitely following this thread!


----------



## plantbrain

Rules are good till you want to break em.

Many folks like diversity and color in aquariums, but the challenge and the good points with the Dutch style is that it is very good at satisfying them both, the nature style does not seek that nearly to the same degree.
But..this is not really dutch style either, so rules are broke on both sides.


----------



## Studman0143

plantbrain said:


> Rules are good till you want to break em.
> 
> Many folks like diversity and color in aquariums, but the challenge and the good points with the Dutch style is that it is very good at satisfying them both, the nature style does not seek that nearly to the same degree.
> But..this is not really dutch style either, so rules are broke on both sides.


Awesome. What is a dutch style tank anyways? I see that a lot of people do them here, but I can't seem to grasp it's "rules" per say.


----------



## Craigthor

Studman0143 said:


> Awesome. What is a dutch style tank anyways? I see that a lot of people do them here, but I can't seem to grasp it's "rules" per say.


 
Good info over here: http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8713&sid=4222d78ccf297748784b3dfae4cf4bf4


----------



## FDNY911

I absolutely knew it was a bad idea to come back to this website after I just quit the hobby. Subbed. =(


----------



## Lil' Swimz$

Absolutely gorgeous!


----------



## plantbrain

Craigthor said:


> Good info over here: http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8713&sid=4222d78ccf297748784b3dfae4cf4bf4


This is an excellent discussion.

It also high lights some of the problems with the style's future and outside NBAT. Some of my older tanks from the 1990's attempted to emulate these tanks. I had the growth often times, if not better, but could not maintain the species I chose together effectively.

Poor choice of plants, real desire/discipline and collectoritus got the better of me.

The 120 Gal I have here is also not dutch, but uses some of the ideas, a lot is weighed on the fish/community and their no#'s and vitality.

In the past, the use of CO2 in Dutch tanks was a hotly debated issue, far more than ANYONE can imagine here today on this forum. 

Many of the older tanks did NOT USE CO2.

So, hot pants......my question to those who talk big, show me your best non CO2 scape.

Then compare to those tanks from the 1950-1960-1970's.


----------



## jkan0228

How high of a concentration of co2 do dutch tanks have now a days? Being that the stems will also give off lots of oxygen in the water from growth, does this high concentration of oxygen and co2 keep the livestock alive?


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> How high of a concentration of co2 do dutch tanks have now a days? Being that the stems will also give off lots of oxygen in the water from growth, does this high concentration of oxygen and co2 keep the livestock alive?


It's still all over the place, more so than typical US English speaking forums.
This may be due to measure errors. Some have 50 ppm. Some much less.

Most use T8 lighting, not T5 and MH's etc...........so the intensity of lighting is much less than many USA users.

Somehow they "eek" by:hihi:

I use T5's, but I use wide spacing and only a few and they are suspended fairly high above. Light meter readings have been around 30-60 umols. 
No surprises there. This tank sits about 50 umols. 

Water quality is based on the old outdated concept of purer water = is best.
So any P, N, Fe etc= bad and point's deduction. So many would do a couple of massive water changes before the judges came over. This is cheating is a way, but those are the rules from way back.

They really do not have many fish in most tanks I've seen.........
Good plant growth = good O2, they are independent however(CO2 and O2).
But...........I have no issues at 45-50ppm and Gold nuggets and Double trunk elephant noses are FAR FAR more CO2 sensitive than Tetras and the typical Nature style fish including Discus and Altums. 

Many fish stop eating if the CO2 is too high/O2 too low.
Mine are pigs. If they are not eating right, I know something is up right away.


----------



## plantbrain

FDNY911 said:


> I absolutely knew it was a bad idea to come back to this website after I just quit the hobby. Subbed. =(


Folks never really quit, they just have more pressing issues in life.
It'll be here for you when you are ready.


----------



## audioaficionado

You never fully quit this hobby. Like any addiction, one small dose of even seeing a nice tank will get you right back into it.


----------



## Jeffww

If only staurogyne red was still around in the US. It'd be great in those foreground holes.


----------



## plantbrain

Jeffww said:


> If only staurogyne red was still around in the US. It'd be great in those foreground holes.


Those are not holes. I leave space on purpose.

It also provides for "overflow growth" which I can use to fill in and make a section more dense, and to sell in the swap section etc. It provides some order and room. Every square inch need not be plants and covered. But a new red plant with nice color and form, growth habit, is always welcomed to try


----------



## plantbrain

So once a month mowing works well.

Do not fear the mowing.


----------



## orchidman

glosso looks amazing!


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> glosso looks amazing!


It's grown back extremely dense.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

LOL.. i just ripped my eye sockets out.. i can't believe im seeing all these red plants!!!!

if i buy a red plant today. three days later its shoots come out red and then turn green and then all new shoots turn green. WHY? frustration level creeping. ahh sadness ill get there eventually
Tom i like this tank very very much. the downoi is the kicker for me. i like how youv'e run it at an angle


----------



## orchidman

i think it got burried when i asked earlier, but how long do you wait after planning before trimming the first time?


----------



## frenchymasters

i just found this tank and im so in love with it! what is the red plant on the far left?


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> LOL.. i just ripped my eye sockets out.. i can't believe im seeing all these red plants!!!!
> 
> if i buy a red plant today. three days later its shoots come out red and then turn green and then all new shoots turn green. WHY? frustration level creeping. ahh sadness ill get there eventually
> Tom i like this tank very very much. the downoi is the kicker for me. i like how youv'e run it at an angle


I take the runts and side shoots and plant them in the front area, this provides nice growing conditions for the Downoi and other stem plants, the mother plants are about the size of a racquetball. 

I think there's this automated thing that believes we can just use parameters and such, and we all should have the same results.

Well, tap water, cleaning filters, the type of filters, consistency, 1001 shrimp picking and cleaning...........a nice wide T5 light that's 20" wide and have very nice spread..... but I'm maintaining and gardening this tank vs neglecting it.........

All these things add up.

The 120 gal before I had issues with. It did okay, but there was alaways some CO2 issue with the built in overflow.... So I started over and redid things.

I've changed Nothing really, just that SOB overflow screwed my CO2 to Hades. Ferts/light/sediment, all the same, *but a massive difference in the end result.* The CPR prefilter was 10X better choice for the tank.
Just a minor issue with CO2 makes all the difference.

I nag all the time about this, but when you can carefully measure the light and adjust it to within 1-2 umol and the ferts/sediment are the same, tap water and care all, the same, you really end up with only one variable.

And if you target that before you add fish/shrimp etc and use the plants as a good indicator....then you have the turkey cooked good.


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> i think it got burried when i asked earlier, but how long do you wait after planning before trimming the first time?


I trimmed some background weeds a week or two into it.......the rest were topped and new shoots used to fill in. I'm still doing this with a few species in the back and with the Erio setaceum (might be a long time).


----------



## plantbrain

frenchymasters said:


> i just found this tank and im so in love with it! what is the red plant on the far left?


either Rotala wallichi(older pics) if it's a fine needled plant or the Ludwigia perunisis/granulosus(newer pics).


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> I take the runts and side shoots and plant them in the front area, this provides nice growing conditions for the Downoi and other stem plants, the mother plants are about the size of a racquetball.
> 
> I think there's this automated thing that believes we can just use parameters and such, and we all should have the same results.
> 
> Well, tap water, cleaning filters, the type of filters, consistency, 1001 shrimp picking and cleaning...........a nice wide T5 light that's 20" wide and have very nice spread..... but I'm maintaining and gardening this tank vs neglecting it.........
> 
> All these things add up.
> 
> The 120 gal before I had issues with. It did okay, but there was alaways some CO2 issue with the built in overflow.... So I started over and redid things.
> 
> I've changed Nothing really, just that SOB overflow screwed my CO2 to Hades. Ferts/light/sediment, all the same, *but a massive difference in the end result.* The CPR prefilter was 10X better choice for the tank.
> Just a minor issue with CO2 makes all the difference.
> 
> I nag all the time about this, but when you can carefully measure the light and adjust it to within 1-2 umol and the ferts/sediment are the same, tap water and care all, the same, you really end up with only one variable.
> 
> And if you target that before you add fish/shrimp etc and use the plants as a good indicator....then you have the turkey cooked good.



that said.. and going off your other post. you are using a CPR overflow for ur woodagmi. is that what u used on this tank to correct the mass waste of c02? also do u run a closed wet/dry to prevent more off gassing or do you leave it open? 
also to touch on it. what is your preference to c02 dissolution? i haven't seen any airlines in pictures so im assuming a reactor or inline atomizer.
while im at it. what is your preference on bulbs and bulb temps? does it change from tank to tank or do you run a standard?


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> that said.. and going off your other post. you are using a CPR overflow for ur woodagmi. is that what u used on this tank to correct the mass waste of c02? also do u run a closed wet/dry to prevent more off gassing or do you leave it open?
> also to touch on it. what is your preference to c02 dissolution? i haven't seen any airlines in pictures so im assuming a reactor or inline atomizer.
> while im at it. what is your preference on bulbs and bulb temps? does it change from tank to tank or do you run a standard?


The Wet/dry is sealed in the dry section, the sump is open after that, just like the tank top is also open

since the overflow is sealed and the where the water crashed down into the dry chamber, no CO2 is lost, O2 is is still added since it gets sucked into and down into the dry section also, but unlike the super saturation of Co2 at 20x normal pressure.........the O2 is right at saturation or a tad above/below depending on time of day. CO2 is quickly removed at night. I use a needle wheel. Sometimes this makes a mist nuisance, but other times not so much.
you can also run the NW into a tube reactor and then feed the effluent from that........to the return.......this avoids the mist nuisance and is really efficient and rapid.

I have a pic of the sump in the thread: here it is again:










I did this nearly 20 years ago here:










CO2 was 4 2x liter bottles of DIY yeast, it was tough keeping up with the brew mixes to provide ample cO2. I had a GREAT deal of light, but also had to add much more than 15 ppm of CO2, I was around 40ppm best we could measure using RO baking soda replacement. So my filtration has tied MANY different methods, and always come back to this. Once the CO2 issue was solved(and the 3 years BBA issue........), I needed to dose more and trim a lot. Those Hamilton MH's put out a lot of light at 350W over a 90 gal as they are effective as a T5 light, so that's almost 4w/gal of real high light.

Amano curiously arrived at a similar conclusion independently as well as quite a few others. Better for fish. Not sure why ADA does not offer and add nice small wet/drys and hang on overflows........they do sell/have built in over flows, I hate those personally though.

Color temps, well, I'm not happy with what I now have. Giesemann powerchrome daylights, and then 1-2 of the pink aquafloras.
I have some other brands and types coming in this week later, so I get to test and see.

I have some ATI dimmer fixtures, not cheap, but really cool and hyper efficient.
I can dim and also adjust the spread and mix with the suspension height, and they have a dusk to dawn dimmer function etc, look nice and there's less issues vs say the LED DIY or pre made fixtures. Maybe that will change, but I can do most anything I want with ATI's.
I have a reef they will be used on and then the 70 Gal woodagumi. This tank will stick with the Tek fixture, but I can swap out the bulbs and try the GE starbrights and the ATI's.
There are a few others I'd like to try also.

The 180 Gal has 8800K CSL bulbs that are really close to the ADA brand bulb color tempos and appearance. But, the red plants look rotten in that tank, those bulbs are no good for red plants, the PAR is the same, CO2 even higher, the ADA AS, the dosing the water changes etc........

This is why having only one tank that's running good is a bad idea to make any conclusions!!!!!!
If you have several, then you can try out different thing sto see and test your own idea before sticking your foot in your mouth.
Toe just does not taste good.


----------



## frenchymasters

its the newer pictures....i want some of that plant when i get my tank going.


----------



## plantbrain

frenchymasters said:


> its the newer pictures....i want some of that plant when i get my tank going.


Most on line vendors carry them.

Cheap etc, takes a few weeks for them to turn full aquatic type growth.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

HMM.. i have geisseman powerchrome and geisseman whatever it is aquaflora i think as well. so far im not too happy either.. bright yes. but the coloring isn't what i'd look for. very... yellow
anyways lemme know how the starcoats go. they were 2nd on the list for me to try

mist is unnatractive for sue but is there a benefit to having the mist? or is it better to have 100% dissolution?

also if the dry, and overflow sections are sealed how does air get sucked down into the dry section? i feel like i may have missed somethign there. i know the overflow frm cpr has a vent tube but the overflow is sealed?


----------



## plantbrain

Air comes in from the start of the overflow, bubbles etc plus your surface of the tank and sump is clean and less barrier to diffusion of O2, which is rather unsoluble by comparison to CO2.

Overflow has a lid on the back of it. The drop is also only about 2" or less typically, not much and then it heads to the sump, and the return fires the CO2 back in.

Mist adds CO2 gas directly to the leaves, this may, and I make a point that it's only a theory............that allows the CO2 to enter and diffuse into the leaves faster than if it's in the liquid form.

We can breath liquid O2 in water also............but...........the energy and muscles required are too hard for ambient air O2 levels to get enough. the basic theory hinges on this one basic issue: gases diffuse faster than liquids across barriers.

the other argument is that the fish are subjected to less CO2 in the water, but perhaps the bubbles mess with them /their gills etc, but I've not seen any issues/signs of this.

Basically it's an entire debate that is very difficult to test experimentally.
How does one measure gas in solution that's not dissolved vs the same treatment and concentration available to the plants with dissolved CO2?
There is no way to label and track CO2 from gas to liquid and back etc.

All we can see are the indirect effects on the plants.


----------



## plantbrain

Some top view of the rear:









you can see two different growth colors of R macrandra, one orange and another red. Same plant, same tank, but different coloration.
One was trimmed recently and the other was not, I'll let you guess which is which.

Sorry for the ripples, my tank has those without the hair dryer trick.

Gloss at 35 Days post trim, a real dense mat.










I am NOT liking the Fissidens. I was thinking of making several round wood pieces to act like stones and round moss balls.

Another option is to spread the Erio out more in that section.
I could also add dwarf clover which I have a little bit of sitting here.
I need a better contrast leaf wise against the Erio and the UG though, whatever it is, needs to be short and not HC etc.

Shrimp attacked the Erio setaceum. I'll remove it and add it to another tank tomorrow night. R wallichii also was attacked a fair amount, but they have left it alone the last 2 weeks.
Some fine needle plants do not mind(Hydrothrix seems to enjoy it).....others do. Obviously shrimp no#, type and density matter, as well as feedings, I feed them a lot, but there are a lot of shrimp. Every pic has many, I did not wait or feed them to coax them out! There are just that many in the tank.

I think I might try the larger patch of Erios and expand the UG perhaps a bit.
Fissidens might go on a few of the wood branches.

Mermaid weed has colored up and is looking decent in the rear, Hydrothrix continues to a weed that needs trimmed often, same with P stellata.

Measured the light again and reduced the height of the fixture from 16 to 12" above the water .
60umol along the bottom.
Added all bulbs: 120 umol.

I ran 120 umol for a couple of weeks for 8 hours per day.
I ended up with a lot more glass algae whereas I had none prior. Plants grew faster, some colored up better in areas that had shaded lower light/overshadowed prior. Seem mostly a function of evenness of the lighting, rather than intensity, but intensity still plays a role beyond a threshold of good growth. How much is hard to quantify and different bulb spectra also plays a role if not a more/large role for this. I think this much light(120umol) is asking for more work. I can keep the tank clean etc, and trim, but I'd prefer not to clean the glass much if at all.
At 60umol, I still get very nice overall growth that plenty for most any scaping project.

I'll see how the new bulbs GE respond to the algae and the changes in PAR
Top levels in the tank at full lighting was 250umol, or about where Troels/Ole's article in tropic set their upping limit for light and CO2.
CO2 is about 50ppm in this tank. Fish eat very aggressively as well as shrimp and so called CO2 sensitive species(some plecos and elephant noses).\

My old 90 Gal tank from 15 years ago had about this same high light PAR range using 350 Watts of metal halide about 12" above the water. Roughly 400umol at the center at the water's surface and about 60-70umol at the bottom over most of the sediment. This is an estimate since the tank is not running any longer, but I took some measures from an old set up that uses the same Hamilton fixtures on a 90 Gal tank/same bulbs(Iwasaki 6500K). 

Those big ugly globes.........they were the best thing back then though.


----------



## orchidman

Wow that's quite a difference in the macrandra!


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> Wow that's quite a difference in the macrandra!


I'm leaving it be for a bit and let it grow out and fluff up a bit. 
It was stunted when I got it.........so it was hurting........but sends side shoots out fast.

Those are red, but I have some orange color popping up, but also red at the same time in the older plant that was not trimmed.

Could be variety differences since they are from 2 different sources.


----------



## frenchymasters

plantbrain said:


>


 
Just my opinion, i rather love the fissidens on the wood but i would also like to see the marsilea planted at the base ....i think that may look rather cool.

also how are you managing to grow erios and downoi when they need completly different water chemistry?


----------



## Bjielsl

So I am gonna ask a total newb question... DEFINE DUTCH style.


----------



## Booger

Bjielsl said:


> So I am gonna ask a total newb question... DEFINE DUTCH style.


Easy











Tom- Is HC a no go for this tank? I am at my end trying to deal with mine growing vertical instead of horizontal and uprooting itself. Thinking about giving glosso a try.


----------



## Church

^ lmao


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

i definitely agree. the fissidens look rockin. but it is your tank. i can see why you wouldn't like them, but their contrast in color and flowy shape make sthem really stand out in this tank

as for the mist. my otos and pleco seem to not like it as much. before i used a reactor and to downsize i went with inline diffuser. im runnig very close to the same ppm c02 with calibrated kh bottles. also so according to hach c02 test kit. the bubbles get stuck under the flaps that force water over their gills and they freak out occaisionally. my ottos do a circular pattern on the glass then fall off when the bubbles build up. if i increase flow i nthe tank to 31x turnover it helps make the bubbles smaller and they don't seem affected much. the pleco gets just plain stupid
i haven't noticed a huge difference other than on bigger leafed plants c02 bubbles will form under the leaf. and lower down in the tank where plants would previously not pearl i see a few 02 bubbles sticking to the top of leaves.
no noticable increase in growth or color
bba also seems harder to manage this way versus more dissolution


----------



## orchidman

plantbrain said:


> I'm leaving it be for a bit and let it grow out and fluff up a bit.
> It was stunted when I got it.........so it was hurting........but sends side shoots out fast.
> 
> Those are red, but I have some orange color popping up, but also red at the same time in the older plant that was not trimmed.
> 
> Could be variety differences since they are from 2 different sources.


Very cool. Id love to see what ends up with this!


----------



## plantbrain

frenchymasters said:


> Just my opinion, i rather love the fissidens on the wood but i would also like to see the marsilea planted at the base ....i think that may look rather cool.
> 
> also how are you managing to grow erios and downoi when they need completly different water chemistry?


Because....drum roll..........that's a myth.roud:


----------



## plantbrain

Booger said:


> Easy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom- Is HC a no go for this tank? I am at my end trying to deal with mine growing vertical instead of horizontal and uprooting itself. Thinking about giving glosso a try.


How dare you racists insensitive plant haters insult my culture! haha, it's okay, as long as it's funny.

Them shoes, that's why we left
Still got bunions.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, 

I'll be changing some things this weekend.

UG will be uprooted and trimmed, so I'll have more of that for sale.


----------



## orchidman

Why don't you just trim the ug?


----------



## lollerpoop

1 pic:I have to say that im suprised (in a good way) at how the erio... cinereum? popped,though i prolly blame the ludwigia on the background 
Beautiful picture,i still hold on to that the moss should not be there.

The second pic: the first that came to mind was "that looks like a photo from a dream" never seen setacum from above. could you show us a front shot of it? from above it looks really great.
Have you ever considered using hydrocotyle tripartita "japan"? it "fluffens" up the ground a bit, though im not sure the color would fit and its a bit......invasive =x as in lots of trimming.
I know alot of people have lots of opinion and critique about your tank so i hope you wont get offended by my suggestions/opinion.

/Jules


----------



## frenchymasters

so your saying that downoi and erios like soft water? or neutral water?


----------



## plantbrain

lollerpoop said:


> 1 pic:I have to say that im suprised (in a good way) at how the erio... cinereum? popped,though i prolly blame the ludwigia on the background
> Beautiful picture,i still hold on to that the moss should not be there.
> 
> The second pic: the first that came to mind was "that looks like a photo from a dream" never seen setacum from above. could you show us a front shot of it? from above it looks really great.
> Have you ever considered using hydrocotyle tripartita "japan"? it "fluffens" up the ground a bit, though im not sure the color would fit and its a bit......invasive =x as in lots of trimming.
> I know alot of people have lots of opinion and critique about your tank so i hope you wont get offended by my suggestions/opinion.
> 
> /Jules


I am hard to truly offend, but many are not.
I have not seen the other penny wort, I might try it some.
I suppose the verticillata might not be a bad idea either running through there either.

I have taken some people's ideas and done them, others, no.
But ideas are good to have for changes and improvements.


----------



## plantbrain

frenchymasters said:


> so your saying that downoi and erios like soft water? or neutral water?


I do not think they care much.
Maybe some Rotala's.....

Erio's like the E setaceum will do better in KH's less than say 5-6 degrees..........
but that's not super soft.

The high no# of shrimp have been pestering the Erio setaceum however, not the water/light/CO2/fert combo.


----------



## !shadow!

Love the fissidens on the tank but like HD blazingwolf said it's your tank and do what makes you happy.


----------



## plantbrain

!shadow! said:


> Love the fissidens on the tank but like HD blazingwolf said it's your tank and do what makes you happy.


Speaking of fissidens:









This came in with lots of algae and Cladophora, I was worried, but the shrimp picked the snot out of the algae on the moss. Not an algae issue at all. cleaned it up nicely and the moss is now clean. I'd like some more barrier like raised relief as those erios work their way towards the front, the sticks the moss are on really are not doing that job. They are also a little bit too tall.

I can trim the tips closest to the front of the glass off to lower them some.

the other option is to sneak some wood dividers without moss in between the UG and moss and then the Moss and the Erio's.

I've divided the erios a few times now already, so I'm up to 22 plants.
I'll need to start selling them at some point in 2 months or so.


----------



## jkan0228

Are those Erio setaceum? With the hardness that Erios like, is it based off gh/kh? Or TDS?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Wow the fissidens really spread over the woood quick


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> Are those Erio setaceum? With the hardness that Erios like, is it based off gh/kh? Or TDS?


KH I'd say, but I've seen the Erio cinerums growing in limestone water of the Midwest. The CO2 was according to the pH/Kh chart 220ppm but the fish were fine.

E setaceum looks a lot like the Hydrothrix garderi I have.

Shrimp attack it though and pester it, it grows well, but the shrimp eat at the tip. this makes it look ratty and not thrive. 

Shrimp also have gone after the R wallichii till I started feeding the horde more.

Now I just have more shrimp.
Culling 50 every week is not enough.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Wow the fissidens really spread over the woood quick


It also fattened up, colored nicely and the algae is almost all gone from shrimp picking.

Another idea is to stack the wood on top of each other to get a staggered effect. Then use divider wood(without any moss on it) to make the line between the different species.

Fissidens grows quite fast and fragments all over the place. So it's sort of a messy plant, but those fragments are collected and sold for 20$ per golf ball size portion. So the clean up offers a carrot in return.

That's one way to think about it.

At least I have nice healthy Fissidens that's clean and not infested with other pest plants or algae. So I can use it elsewhere if need be or if I decide to change the wood patterns etc.

Which very well might occur soon.


----------



## Da Plant Man

If you were to estimate how many shrimp you got in there, how many would you say? Just curious is all 

Spectacular tank!


----------



## The Gipper

Love the fissidens and the Erio is amazing

Mark L


----------



## plantbrain

Da Plant Man said:


> If you were to estimate how many shrimp you got in there, how many would you say? Just curious is all
> 
> Spectacular tank!


At least 500 to 1000. Started with maybe 100, culled as many as ended up in the overflow filter 2x a week.

Culling is important.

I have added about 100 Amano's, but have removed a few, lots of large females in here, they ate a couple of fish when I put the new Rainbows in.

Mean hungry shrimp.

I'll catch them easy with Ken's algae sticks and then take to the client's discus tank. With this density of Fire shrimps, I do not need the Amano's at all.


----------



## bored4

plantbrain said:


> I'll catch them easy with Ken's algae sticks and then take to the client's discus tank. With this density of Fire shrimps, I do not need the Amano's at all.


Amano's will survive in the higher temp water with discus?


----------



## plantbrain

bored4 said:


> Amano's will survive in the higher temp water with discus?


They are fine, so are fire and RCS.


----------



## aXio

I'm going to be most interested in your Erio if you decide to sell it on here in the future. Is there anything special required to grow it properly? What type of substrate does it prefer?


----------



## plantbrain

The Gloss runneth over.









Top view of the mermaid weed which has colored up nicely and is doing better than I thought it would.









R. macrandra:








While the bottom original portion is ratty, the top keeps doing quite nicely and a has this nice multi colored mauve to red coloration depending on where you look at it.
When it is moved/uprooted etc, it tend to stunt and then new side shoots form and grow like mad.

I just allow it to hit the surface and will let it grow quite a bit first...........then trim when I have a ton of it.

The other nice thing about these pics/this tank...... is/are all the Fire shrimp which give you a nice red color reference.
I should get some Ammannia gracilius in a week or two.


----------



## plantbrain

aXio said:


> I'm going to be most interested in your Erio if you decide to sell it on here in the future. Is there anything special required to grow it properly? What type of substrate does it prefer?


Light, CO2 and ferts, it's in ADA aqua soil amazonia(see AFA or ADG for sales in the USA for ADA products)

I have lots of shrimp, and you will often see it covered with BBA or cladophora infested in the middle of the spikey ball, hard to remove, I take great pains removing any such leaves, algae from them. Bladderwort also can be an issue, or even the moss, like Fissidens.

Fragments get into nice plants like these, or downoi, or ruin a nice stand of Hairgrass belem etc.

Plant weeds in planted tanks are a real serious problem for me, I'm very aggressive about removal and checking plants before and after I add them to my tanks.

I would like to do a Iwagumi with only Erio cinreum.


----------



## orchidman

love the palustris!!


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> love the palustris!!


I've seen so much of it in it's natural habitat, but it looks different in most locations, green and fine needled. Only in the Everglades Karst potholes did it color up like this and get the thicker leaves.


----------



## orchidman

i used to have a single stem of it, and it had no leaves on the bottom so it looked like a palm tree. haha  i really loved the plant, mine was bright green, but it looks so great with that coloration!


----------



## lollerpoop

plantbrain said:


> I would like to do a Iwagumi with only Erio cinreum.




Dayum! that would be so wicked!
Though wouldnt it be hard with only slow growing species? I mean isnt erio slow growing?
Ive had some problem with my tanks that had ONLY slow growers (prolly because of wrong fertsregimen and to much lighting) but ive had succes when ive but some fast growers with it.
How would you approach to get that kind of iwagumi?
(sorry for the OP question)


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> Light, CO2 and ferts, it's in ADA aqua soil amazonia(see AFA or ADG for sales in the USA for ADA products)
> 
> I have lots of shrimp, and you will often see it covered with BBA or cladophora infested in the middle of the spikey ball, hard to remove, I take great pains removing any such leaves, algae from them. Bladderwort also can be an issue, or even the moss, like Fissidens.
> 
> Fragments get into nice plants like these, or downoi, or ruin a nice stand of Hairgrass belem etc.
> 
> Plant weeds in planted tanks are a real serious problem for me, I'm very aggressive about removal and checking plants before and after I add them to my tanks.
> 
> I would like to do a Iwagumi with only Erio cinreum.


so if i read this properly the erio constantly has algae growth on old leaves in the center of the mass? could this be flow caused or just typical of this plant?


----------



## plantbrain

lollerpoop said:


> Dayum! that would be so wicked!
> Though wouldnt it be hard with only slow growing species? I mean isnt erio slow growing?
> Ive had some problem with my tanks that had ONLY slow growers (prolly because of wrong fertsregimen and to much lighting) but ive had succes when ive but some fast growers with it.
> How would you approach to get that kind of iwagumi?
> (sorry for the OP question)


Well, if you use nice mature plants from an established tank and transplant them, maybe not. We have seen many Anubias tanks with not much algae issues.

But Anubias vs Erio? Not a close match.But with ADA AS/clayloam +sand CAP, likely could do it without much issue.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> so if i read this properly the erio constantly has algae growth on old leaves in the center of the mass? could this be flow caused or just typical of this plant?


Ah, that's the section that caused some confusion in the BBA thread.

No, this is not correct. Only oldest leaves ever had any algae when I received them. Moss, Riccia and Baldderwort have gotten caught, and several erios I got from folks had Cladophora and some older leaves had BBA when I got them.

This algae was removed, but I did not get 100% of it, and the small bit of Cladphora I was able to remove it with tweezers. Now it's been gone and that's been a couple of months. I still check to see if there's any regrowth/new growth. 

I am careful to check and keep the plants clean of such weedy infesting plants and filamentous green algae like cladpohora which is much more "plant like" than algae like. Much like those algae balls they sell.

Once you add it, it'll grow in any well run planted tank.

Same with Cladphora tufts. So good careful manual removal, good CO2 prevent spread etc. Shrimp seem to really bother and pester it also, but often cannot contain a bad environmental issue like poor CO2 etc.
The Fissidens also came in with some Caldophora, but the new growth plus shrimp picking seem to remove it effectively and I've seen no signs of it. So algae has been added to this tank, but was removed or died off on its own.

So no blooms or any management issues for algae. No *new* growth of algae and algae that was added did not take hold or persist.
That's even better, you add algae and it does not do well and dies off. I help by manually picking off any I might see, but that;s just left over from the plants. The spores are certainly present however. They just are not germinating.

That is the key, preventing new spores from germinating.

Now the shrimp might have something to do with epiphytic algae germinating and getting a good growth start since they pick at everything, a new germling might be easy prey, much more susceptible and tasty than a tough old icky adult alga.

Still, when I increased the lighting, the glass algae increased dramatically.

So plants, algae eaters cannot contain longer sustained light intensity. But perhaps a short burst like ADA uses, or a dimmer function ramp up, or adding the Royal farowells or other species of of plecos that clean the glass well but do little harm to the plants might work better. But I do not mine glass cleaning that much on one tank, the other tanks have less light or a short light period of a ramp up high intensity like the new 70 Gal, but I can change the lighting in MANY ways on that tank, maybe I'll an ATI hood for this tank too.


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> i used to have a single stem of it, and it had no leaves on the bottom so it looked like a palm tree. haha  i really loved the plant, mine was bright green, but it looks so great with that coloration!


It got a good hack today.

I'll see how the sprouting of the topped plants do.


----------



## plantbrain

Then all of it:









It'll be back in a week or two.

The UG filled in nicely and fast using the plugs and then I trim like grass from here on.
The larger mound was too far gone to trim since the middle had pulled up from the roots. 

So it was removed and replanted with plugs. The trick is to prevent that from getting too thick and away from me before trimming it.

Same is true for Gloss and HC.

Trim before it gets going too much other wise it will uproot and the edges will be the only rooted part.

Here's the UG, not the bets pic, it's dark and the fast f stop does not offer much depth of field focus.










Also, unaltered hue processing on red plants:









Altered hue(2% less hue):









What a difference a little post processing can do to coloration:wink:
You can sort of see the funky color in the reds, I see this same shade on many different red plants, even though in person these same plants are very different shades of red.

This can be fine tuned further, but many just use the hue function.
If you increase hue 2%, then the red goes quite dull, but the greens pop out.

You can also look at my thumb, in the altered version, the thumb has an odd red hue to it, but that is not the case in the unaltered.


----------



## audioaficionado

Nice multi spectrum bank of lamps reflected in your examples. Do you use multi spectrum lamp arrays to get the best PAR effects for your plants, best visual effects, just testing various lamps, or...?


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> Nice multi spectrum bank of lamps reflected in your examples. Do you use multi spectrum lamp arrays to get the best PAR effects for your plants, best visual effects, just testing various lamps, or...?


I turn them all on recently to see how the tank responds. I normally just run the outer 2 banks, so 1.8W/gal or 50 -60micro mols on the bottom. Double this and you get 100-120umol along the bottom. This is A LOT of light.

Also makes pictures easier.

I get 5-10X more glass algae, but hardly got any till I started messing with the light increases. I think I only cleaned the glass 3 times in some 3 months and it was much less than what forms in a week, now? Weekly. 

I think I'll use the ATI and use a midday burst for 2 hours or so and switch out the Tek. This will still give the effect of the high light, but likely without the higher algae. This was true in some client's tanks also. It's certainly manageable........but I'd rather avoid it if possible and slow the rates of the growth down which really kicked into high gear once I did this.

I use many different color bulbs as a rule anyhow if give a choice, but on a coupe of tanks, I've used all the same, eg 180 gal.

This tank now is using Giesemann day's aquafloras, and then 3 GE starbright 6500K which look pretty blue to me.


----------



## zergling

If you have anything blue (like cardinals) in the tank, try adding one or two ATI AquaBlue Special. It helps blues look better, yet the rest of the spectrum is still very nice when used in conjuction with daylight bulbs. Also has very nice PAR output - less than the GE 6500K, but not by much (IIRC, around 50 umol diff, measured right at the ATI's acrylic shield).

My 4-bulb setup at the moment. Very pleased with it - I think it's the most natural looking combination I've used, and I've played around with quite a few.

(Front)
Geisemann Midday Sun
ATI AquaBlue Special
Geisemann Aqua Flora
GE 6500K
(Back)


----------



## audioaficionado

I've got just two 6500K T5HO lights running 8 hrs and I've got lots of GDA on my glass, but like you've said, it's not too hard to keep up with. The plants have some black/green/red BGA coating them in high to low light conditions. Too broke to deal with it this month. I'll attack it next month with chemicals. I'll try some window screen for now and see if I get any positive response from the BGA.

I should really learn how to get this 45H tank working well before I invest $$$$ more in a bigger tank in the 150-180 gal range.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Well now that u have then. Let me know how you feel about the starcoats. Im interested as i have two bulbs that are more reef oriented in conjunction with my geisseman buulbs. Ones a new sunn 12k and a midday red which looks RED. Together with giesseman bulbs looks really fantasic but they wont grow poop on their own. Ive used them for midday burst and have really helped my macrandra redden up nicely


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> If you have anything blue (like cardinals) in the tank, try adding one or two ATI AquaBlue Special. It helps blues look better, yet the rest of the spectrum is still very nice when used in conjuction with daylight bulbs. Also has very nice PAR output - less than the GE 6500K, but not by much (IIRC, around 50 umol diff, measured right at the ATI's acrylic shield).
> 
> My 4-bulb setup at the moment. Very pleased with it - I think it's the most natural looking combination I've used, and I've played around with quite a few.
> 
> (Front)
> Geisemann Midday Sun
> ATI AquaBlue Special
> Geisemann Aqua Flora
> GE 6500K
> (Back)


I have the ATI's blue spec's in my 70 woodagumi.
The GE are pretty close and 1/2 the cost.

But I could use some Red in that tank, I think I'm fine with the color combo in the 120 gallon.......but might switch to an ATI fixture.
Those things are sweet.


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> I've got just two 6500K T5HO lights running 8 hrs and I've got lots of GDA on my glass, but like you've said, it's not too hard to keep up with. The plants have some black/green/red BGA coating them in high to low light conditions. Too broke to deal with it this month. I'll attack it next month with chemicals. I'll try some window screen for now and see if I get any positive response from the BGA.
> 
> I should really learn how to get this 45H tank working well before I invest $$$$ more in a bigger tank in the 150-180 gal range.


Well, I have the option to slow things down and do less work, but I'm in a "gardening mood" right now. We have our phases over time and with other commitments in life. My other tanks are not a lot of work pruning wise.

So one "pesky stem plant tank" is okay. 
Someone with chronic GDA reported tannins from wood seem to get rid of it when nothing else worked.

So peat filters water might help. Would not be a bad idea to try out.
My wood no longer leaches, but that's more correlation. Could be, the person tried all the tricks with GDA and less/more light, cO2, and then antibiotics etc.

Kept coming back, till........they added a lot of manzy..........lots of correlation but nothing is sure fire. Light and CO2 drive every algae issue I can find typically, except for the low fert algae's.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Well now that u have then. Let me know how you feel about the starcoats. Im interested as i have two bulbs that are more reef oriented in conjunction with my geisseman buulbs. Ones a new sunn 12k and a midday red which looks RED. Together with giesseman bulbs looks really fantasic but they wont grow poop on their own. Ive used them for midday burst and have really helped my macrandra redden up nicely


I honestly do not have long term experience with them.
I've really only used Giesemann T5's until like.......last week:hihi:

In the past, most of us used several colors to balance the spectra out better and used T8 or T12. PC sometimes.

The GE are more blue than the midday Giesemann which tend to be pretty yellow. 

I use 

1 AF Giesemann
1midday Giesemann
2 GE 6500K

I have double this for pics or manual midday burst.
Last week I left it on. Photo period is 8 hours. 

I'd like those 9235K GE PC bulbs but in a T5 config, those really brought out the red more than anything. The Red mac looks better than most anything I've seen from other folk's tanks and sources.

I got some more, nice stuff from a local SFBAAPS person. Nice tall full stems, but the color was not nearly as uniform and red.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

hmm seems ima have to try out some starcoats. im not patient when it comes to trying new things. 
i admit. im a kid inside. I like my toys


----------



## spyke

dang....i need some fire shrimp...i thought some of my cherries looked good...but a flash feeding mob of these guys is just awesome....#sojealous.



plantbrain said:


> Just a clear PVC 3/4" return , I was using the Vortech MP20.
> 
> Fire shrimp feeding:


----------



## Realistik84

Tom,
Your tank is ugly and sucks.


----------



## Realistik84

Realistik84 said:


> Tom,
> Your tank is ugly and sucks.


Sorry Tom,
That was my other half that has a tendency to be jealous and envious.

The currently speaking (typing) half is more rational and respects hard work, and dedication to further your business (hobby). 

Keep Tanking!


----------



## edcal

Love it!


----------



## zergling

plantbrain said:


> I have the ATI's blue spec's in my 70 woodagumi.
> The GE are pretty close and 1/2 the cost.
> 
> But I could use some Red in that tank, I think I'm fine with the color combo in the 120 gallon.......but might switch to an ATI fixture.
> Those things are sweet.


Which GE bulb, Tom? The GE 6500K has a green tint to it.

(Top)
GE 6500K
ATI Aqua Blue Special
ATI Purple Plus
UVL AquaSun
(Bottom)









The ATI Purple Plus brings reds very well, but also brings out blues. It also needs other "daylight" bulbs to prevent it from making the tank look too blue/purple. That setup above ended up with a very slight blue tint. Only noticeable to me because the wall behind the tank is white.



The UVL Red Sun below is VERY red. Unfortunately, I broke the bulb before I got to see it on my tank.
GE6500K up top, UVL Red Sun at the bottom.









The ATI Pro Color was very good in bringing out reds and oranges when I had it in the past. Unfortunately, I think it's been discontinued....or at least it's not in the list of my go-to lights vendor anymore.

I know I tried the GE 3000K before, but just don't remember how it looks like, anymore.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

wow that's red

did u notice different plant growth with it?
bushier? taller?


----------



## zergling

HD Blazingwolf said:


> wow that's red
> 
> did u notice different plant growth with it?
> bushier? taller?


Hard to tell as I was focused on how the colors of the tank look, versus the growth of stem plants. I also did not get to "spend time" with the UVL Red Sun as I broke the bulb shortly after taking the picture.

Now, in my tank, stem plants currently tend to like to grow diagonal and get bushy quickly with trimmings. I can't attribute it to lighting with confidence, though, as that would require specific testing that eliminates other factors - something I don't have the time or inclination to do. There's also good flow in the (64ish gallons) tank with my XP3 and 240gph Koralia nano, and my (too) frequent trimming.


----------



## plantbrain

Remember that frequent trimming removes apical dominance. This removes the plant growth regulators that allocate resources for stem growth. So you end up up with shorter bushier plants.

I keep this tank trimmed fairly aggressively.

Some plants like the R macrandra do not fair well to frequent uprooting, others like R wallichii do. P stellata will branch very well and stay bushy if you top it and leave the stumps to regrow.


All those nice massive stem plant domes you see are trimmed using that topping hedge like mow, then they wait 3-4 weeks for the nice full thick dense regrowth to fill back in.

Why/How is my Gloss so thick, short and dense? I trim the heck out of it to the bone.


----------



## plantbrain

Realistik84 said:


> Tom,
> Your tank is ugly and sucks.


I respond well to and appreciate intentional satire.


----------



## plantbrain

spyke said:


> dang....i need some fire shrimp...i thought some of my cherries looked good...but a flash feeding mob of these guys is just awesome....#sojealous.


I'm surprised the genetics have not ended up all normal reds.......but are still 95-99% Full reds with a few Skaruas.


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Which GE bulb, Tom? The GE 6500K has a green tint to it.
> 
> (Top)
> GE 6500K
> ATI Aqua Blue Special
> ATI Purple Plus
> UVL AquaSun
> (Bottom)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ATI Purple Plus brings reds very well, but also brings out blues. It also needs other "daylight" bulbs to prevent it from making the tank look too blue/purple. That setup above ended up with a very slight blue tint. Only noticeable to me because the wall behind the tank is white.
> 
> 
> 
> The UVL Red Sun below is VERY red. Unfortunately, I broke the bulb before I got to see it on my tank.
> GE6500K up top, UVL Red Sun at the bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ATI Pro Color was very good in bringing out reds and oranges when I had it in the past. Unfortunately, I think it's been discontinued....or at least it's not in the list of my go-to lights vendor anymore.
> 
> I know I tried the GE 3000K before, but just don't remember how it looks like, anymore.
> 
> The ATI Pro Color


Thanks for the color info and lesson on those other bulbs.
Yes, that's a red sucker..........I'm scared of that bulb

I added 2 Aqua floras to the 70 Gal. I might trade some Reef folks their older ATI's(they toss them every few months) or get freebies to try.

The R macrandra has really colored up very nice now. I need to think about how to address it's growth form and placement to fully high light the plant.
I removed the current from the Vortech and it might be removed. 

Still pondering........


----------



## Jeromeit

Tom, you said that R. Macandra does not fair to frequent uprooting.. would trimming it real close the the bottom of the stem promote bushier growth?


----------



## Noahma

Jeromeit said:


> Tom, you said that R. Macandra does not fair to frequent uprooting.. would trimming it real close the the bottom of the stem promote bushier growth?


Not to step on Toms feet here :icon_redf R. Macandra LOVES to be trimmed. I trim my bushes down at least 1/2 every couple weeks, and it comes back very strong with multiple side shoots.


----------



## zergling

plantbrain said:


> Thanks for the color info and lesson on those other bulbs.
> Yes, that's a red sucker..........I'm scared of that bulb
> 
> I added 2 Aqua floras to the 70 Gal. I might trade some Reef folks their older ATI's(they toss them every few months) or get freebies to try.


One of these days I'll buy that UVL Red Sun again, and actually get to try it in my tank LOL! The thing with those really red or really blue bulbs is that IMO they work best when there's other bulbs to "balance" them.

The Giesemann AquaFlora is nice - more PAR than the UVL AquaSun, but a little less blue (only noticeable when you place the two beside each other).

The Giesemann Midday is slighty less green than the GE 6500K, but also a little less PAR.

Hopefully in the future I get to upgrade to a 48"L x 24"W x 18"H tank and get a dimmable 8-bulb. That way I can REALLY play around with different bulb combinations while STILL having the capability adjust the intensity. I'm currently derping around with around 100 umol on the lowest point of the substrate, and the "light" GDA (only noticeable on the glass diffuser) is kinda annoying me.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Man i really need a par meter. I feel like im pretty low light but bba iis my enemy. Ive added and added c02. My fish are at upper bounds of c02. Lights are 34 inches from substrate. Im really thinking knowing how much light in the water would be beneficial at this point


oh yeah and plants don't go red unless i increase light... oxygen saturation is not a problem here either..
ALSO i don't even get glass algae. ever. never ever anymore. haven't cleaned my glass in 3 months now. and still no signs!!
no thread or fuzz. just black on a few pieces of hardscape. and about 3 nodes down of new growth on most plants... ARGHGHGH


----------



## plantbrain

The solution is not merely adding more and more CO2.

It's how you add it, how it's mixed, how your current flows through the tank, how you prune and keep up on the trimming(which changes a lot through time), how fast a good nominal CO2 ppm is added when the lights come on, some species are more touchy, then other things like good care other wise.

CO2 can be considered a far more complex thing than merely.....adding more and more.

I think folks that get this, understand and spend a lot of effort on it, those that do not....maybe a few get lucky.........but most do not. Then they are frustrated.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Man i really need a par meter. I feel like im pretty low light but bba iis my enemy. Ive added and added c02. My fish are at upper bounds of c02. Lights are 34 inches from substrate. Im really thinking knowing how much light in the water would be beneficial at this point
> 
> 
> oh yeah and plants don't go red unless i increase light... oxygen saturation is not a problem here either..
> ALSO i don't even get glass algae. ever. never ever anymore. haven't cleaned my glass in 3 months now. and still no signs!!
> no thread or fuzz. just black on a few pieces of hardscape. and about 3 nodes down of new growth on most plants... ARGHGHGH


Light just drives growth faster, slower etc........really.

I trim more and have to clean the glass more with more light. If something did go wrong, it'll be worse with more light.

But......many like and enjoy gardening, that is the purpose for this tank. Stem plants, color, pruning and trimming like a typical dutch style tank etc.
The added efforts are rewarded and the trade off is not bad. The tank is rather easy to keep clean and nicely managed.

My other tank is low light and also, very easy to manage.

But if you can only master high light for a short time frame, or have troubles at low light, well........you may want to master all light levels.

In general, if you can master High light, then you can and should be easily able to master Low light. It is a good exercise for some folks. I continually see many nice tanks worldwide that use low light and have awesome tanks. 
I also see fewer high lights, but many look nice also, the failures you do not see. Think about it.

I also have a significant fish load and they get fed a lot of food, and I also have a significant shrimp load/population.

I could manage the tanks and likely would have no algae issues of any sort if I just added a few otto's and shrimps.

Maybe 20 small tetras......That's not a fish tank to me however.
I like fish, and I keep a well stocked aquarium. High fish loads have an adverse effect on algae.


----------



## plantbrain

Jeromeit said:


> Tom, you said that R. Macandra does not fair to frequent uprooting.. would trimming it real close the the bottom of the stem promote bushier growth?


I suppose. But just trimming it and allowing it to grow to the surface for a few days does the trick.

Then trim. The closer you trim really is not the issue, the issue is where you want that bushiness to start, so this might be 6" above the sediment, or 10" above. I generally trim about 1-2" below the line of sight, this way you only see the nice tops, not the ratty lower parts or where it was cut.

Topping this and many species is a very good method, this is plant that can go either way, but IME, it prefers being topped and not uprooted. R wallichii is just the opposite.


----------



## orchidman

if you trim below the line of sight, what should you do for plants that are in the line of sight all the way to the substrate?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

i have a decent fish load. i agree that no fish would be pointless.
filter maintenance. wc's plant trimming is all awesome to me. i enjoy all of it. the care of the tank in general is fun!

flow of the tank is what i guess i would consider awesome. c02 comes on 1 hour and a half before lights.
all plants are swaying fairly aggressively. not so much they got uprooted but most leaves on all my plants move. i have good dissolution of c02. and a nice mist that comes out as well.
i've done high light pretty well actually. too much trimming for my taste. thats all i did was trim and replant. trm and replant


any insight?

i've jacked your thread and i apologize but im basically seeking your time in experience


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> if you trim below the line of sight, what should you do for plants that are in the line of sight all the way to the substrate?


You leave them be, or trim them on a off week etc.
You can also use plant species that do not need that type of trim method and can be topped and use only the fresh tops to replant those sections etc.
some species only need thinned, not trimmed.
You can also top and replant the tops to fill and fatten up a section.


I try a no# of methods trimming wise to see which is best suited for the group/plant species. If growth is good, then this works very well.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i have a decent fish load. i agree that no fish would be pointless.


We have both seen many tanks..with few fishes:icon_cool



> filter maintenance. wc's plant trimming is all awesome to me. i enjoy all of it. the care of the tank in general is fun! flow of the tank is what i guess i would consider awesome. c02 comes on 1 hour and a half before lights.
> all plants are swaying fairly aggressively. not so much they got uprooted but most leaves on all my plants move. i have good dissolution of c02. and a nice mist that comes out as well. i've done high light pretty well actually. too much trimming for my taste. thats all i did was trim and replant. trm and replant
> 
> 
> any insight?
> 
> i've jacked your thread and i apologize but im basically seeking your time in experience


Well, the trick is to be consistent on the trimming and care.
This = more stability. If you spend that much time dosing, light, cleaning filters, feeding fish........ then a good whack every week in a spot or two should fit the bill pretty well.

I suppose one might call this "craftsmanship". I do not always have the motivation or the mood to mess with gardening, but right now, I am in the mood.

But.........it's only in 1 single tank. My other tank is easier, the 180, that's mostly a fish tank to me.......but a Starougyne farm. I can make some $ by selling them and it keeps me pruning. This 120 is much more the color and gardening tank. I do not do a lot, only changing perhaps 5-10% of the plants at a time. See what I like for 1-2 weeks, and let some species fatten up more and others thin out.

I think I know what you are asking. 

The answer is really just time and experience, but ADA's AJ on line mag is a good, but focus on the horticulture, the trimming methods etc. I use the plants as the test kit, I've done this for 20 years. Only then....do I go back and test and measure. And we find the parameters can be ALL over the map and good results in virtually any combo.

I really tweak the CO2. I sold my old 120 Gal with a built in overflow because I could never get good stable CO2.

Broke the entire sucker down, sold it, bought all new tank and stand.
The 1st incarnation was all Belem hairgrass, but I thought I have enough CO2? Heck no.......I did not........

I thought I did, but was worried.
I needed 2X what I was adding.
Shrimp were fine and I used some guinea pigs just in case. 
Then I tried some Gold Nuggets and a double trunk elephant nose.

Then measured the CO2/O2.

I tried a few different placements with the Vortech. I actually pulled it off 3 weeks ago. Fish are fine, some of the plants are growing more erect. But.in the 180 Gal tank, I still have it running full blast and it does well in there.

If the tank is set up right from the start, no algae issues should enter into the tank. It should be highly resistant to any new inoculations from plants, nets, the air etc. If you see a problem, respond aggressively with water changes, clean and remove algae before it becomes an issue.

Amano does not, nor do the top scapers in the world, play around too much with ferts etc, and many have a fair amount of light variation, some high, some low, but without a standard to compare, hard to say, I have measured all the tanks at AFA, and George did place higher than ANY, much higher in fact, than any other person from the USA. I alos measured 6 full ADA displays tanks, all of which where doing very nice. Other's have gone to Nigata and measured the light there, same sort of thing.

My light is 2-3x those ranges in 2 of my tank,s the same in one and less in another. The reef is about 4x.

So I have several tanks to compare, and several tanks that are ADA's and several that are ADA store owners that are good gardeners by convention/competition.

This allows you to see if the issue is a mere fluke..or a pattern. You have several tanks to compare to. Often one tank is doing poorly and another is doing well. We think we treat all things equal, but nope.
So how do I, or ADA, or those stores get things all looking nice?

I wondered/pondered this.

But it really comes down to taking real good care and watching the plants, and seeing how they respond, whatever makes growth respond well/increases that........I go with it.

You can see some Frank's comments' from ADG and some of the ADA videos.
These should be helpful. Watching the plants is critical. If you have a CO2 wimpy plant, eg, one that does poorly while the others grow great......then those are the ones to add and watch. If they grow, then you should be able to grow ANYTHING else.

I'm afraid I really do not have some cook book method for the entire thing, dosing you can.........and light you can adjust and measure using a meter, but CO2 is a the devil for many. I just can eliminate every thing else but that, then try and measure and estimate that one.....then tweak from there.

I might add more current than needed, then slowly reduce that from there, or change it, I might try a different CO2 diffusion method, I might try keeping the plants trimmed lower etc, I painfully accept defeat on one species that did poorly......but I never give up.

I keep after it. Newbies and the intermediate crowd have it the most painful.
Watching and adding fish later..........are two things that might help folks learn better, many good scapers(not all) are bad with fish.......this is because they crank the snot out of the CO2..............and then lower it down slowly and test a few fish.

You can approach it that way also.
I thought and felt I had the upper limit of CO2 in my old 120 with the overflow.......few could have told me different, but I ate crow,..........I took my own advice and redid things.

Not always easy to swallow. Not suggesting you or anyone else need do this.......but in that case, I sort of knew that overflow was the Achilles heel and knew it was linked to CO2. Perhaps the gas escaped from the larger drain pipe going to the sump and the gas could back out easier than it can on this set up? this set up is 5x less noisy also, a huge issue for me.

So I could redo many different things if I did not like them in the past.
But.........at least I have 2-3 other tanks with the same lights/sediment, dosing, water changes, filters etc to compare to. Without that and checking those issues.....I'd have a harder time deducing things.

This was the old tank, now it did pretty well by many folk's standard. But.......I'd get some algae issues and anytime I added more light, they appeared.
With this new tank, that DOES not occur, some more glass algae, but it is a heck of lot of light. But no problem algae that is more CO2 related, green algae species, thread and filamentous etc.
I could get rid of them for 2-3 weeks, but they'd come back. Maybe more shrimp, maybe ...but.........I'm doing everything the same Except for the CO2, I'm adding 2x as much as the old tank and NOT gassing the fish at all, whereas in the old tank, I would gas them if I went higher.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

I see. I havent given up nor will i. I actually changed from an inline diffuser back to a cerge stylle reactor. I felt i had better growth there. Also my water from the tap is 4dgh and i almost religiously added gh booster following fert regime and i noticed plants grew slower than before but i figured it was my fault somehow. Thats being backed off. Surface agitation is being backed off and im playing with the lights again.
I actually took a picture with no light filtering and found that my tank was a huge glare. Even at 34 inches above substrate im still getting more light than i probably should.. we shall see. Thanks for the support


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> I see. I havent given up nor will i. I actually changed from an inline diffuser back to a cerge stylle reactor. I felt i had better growth there. Also my water from the tap is 4dgh and i almost religiously added gh booster following fert regime and i noticed plants grew slower than before but i figured it was my fault somehow. Thats being backed off. Surface agitation is being backed off and im playing with the lights again.
> I actually took a picture with no light filtering and found that my tank was a huge glare. Even at 34 inches above substrate im still getting more light than i probably should.. we shall see. Thanks for the support


I do not tell folks to focus on CO2 all the time for nothing, nor light, they really are the drivers of everything.

Dosing and such .....that's pretty wide ranging and easy.......if you miss a day or two, life will not end. We have a wide range of tank examples that all work pretty good, and the only REAL difference is a good pic, a nice scape/hardscape and a lot of horticulture effort between the methods....they all can be done nicely to a high level.

If something is amiss, then light(less(intensity/hours) and/or CO2 shoud REALLY be given a good hard look.

The above old 120 had higher CO2 ppm measured...........than the new one........but I had issues with something. Not sure what, but I changed things till I got it fixed and went back and forth looking for something, or a way to model the successful tanks I had(which had the hang on vs the built in overflow).

I've seen plenty of overflow tanks that have done well, but I hate em.
Always had better success without them and using the hang on overflows.

Without those other tanks, I'd be real tempted to blame other factors however. Particularly if a fellow local hobbyist had a nice tank with a built in overflow

For whatever reason, something was not right. Testing did not help, adjusting the light and the CO2 did. You will go back and forth on what causes issue or not, many many time in this hobby, if not, you are not thinking.


----------



## green_valley

plantbrain said:


>


Awesome tank as always roud:roud:

I noticed those white stuff on the back glass. Are they just bubbles? or are they those fuzzy growing thingy?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Are those serpae tetras in that shot? They are rediculously red if they are


----------



## doc bonsai

A few posts up you were talking about the significance of not only CO2 levels, but how it's added to the water. What is your take on the oft recommended strategy to have the CO2 bubble go straight into a canister intake to get mixed? Does that damage the biological filter? Does it decrease the life of the filter or otherwise have drawbacks as a method of mixing?

Thanks for sharing all your tips and experience. It's fun to read your posts.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

doc bonsai said:


> A few posts up you were talking about the significance of not only CO2 levels, but how it's added to the water. What is your take on the oft recommended strategy to have the CO2 bubble go straight into a canister intake to get mixed? Does that damage the biological filter? Does it decrease the life of the filter or otherwise have drawbacks as a method of mixing?
> 
> Thanks for sharing all your tips and experience. It's fun to read your posts.


i can add to that. it will slightly impact the bio filter especially if it pools up in spots and prevents the bacteria from getting necessary oxygen

the bubbles will slowly deteriorate you impeller. as long as you don't mind replacing that and make sure ur filter media is very free flowing at all times. it will work as an OK option


----------



## plantbrain

green_valley said:


> Awesome tank as always roud:roud:
> 
> I noticed those white stuff on the back glass. Are they just bubbles? or are they those fuzzy growing thingy?


Yep, mist, I had a Rhinox 50mm diffuser there, PITA, but a okay for the $, last about 2-4 years, then decayed. Had maybe 8 of them for awhile. ADA is a much better longer term Diffuser if you go that route.

Worth the $ difference.

I use a needle wheel on all cO2 enriched tanks in the sump, and will be adding a demist bubble remover before the return intake.

Get the same effect but with out the visual un aesthetics, some folks like the mist though.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Are those serpae tetras in that shot? They are rediculously red if they are


They are from a Florida Breeder, the others from Asia are pale and not so pretty.

I might use these in the 70 Gal, really nice fish.


----------



## plantbrain

doc bonsai said:


> A few posts up you were talking about the significance of not only CO2 levels, but how it's added to the water. What is your take on the oft recommended strategy to have the CO2 bubble go straight into a canister intake to get mixed? Does that damage the biological filter? Does it decrease the life of the filter or otherwise have drawbacks as a method of mixing?
> 
> Thanks for sharing all your tips and experience. It's fun to read your posts.


Folks do it and many do it well, I'm not keen on it and really do not like Canister filters. All my home tanks are sump/wet/drys........even my little 60p ADA.

I can get measurable differences, 1-2 ppm more O2 and a fast drop in CO2 once the lights shut off(30 minutes or so) with a Wet/dry versus a canister filter system. Better for fish, I can add CO2 easier with more wiggle room, more O2 to help bacteria breakign down organic materials and dissolved organics at a faster rate etc, no adding water for evaporation(sump has enough reserve for 1-2 weeks).


----------



## green_valley

plantbrain said:


> Yep, mist, I had a Rhinox 50mm diffuser there, PITA, but a okay for the $, last about 2-4 years, then decayed. Had maybe 8 of them for awhile. ADA is a much better longer term Diffuser if you go that route.
> 
> Worth the $ difference.
> 
> I use a needle wheel on all cO2 enriched tanks in the sump, and will be adding a demist bubble remover before the return intake.
> 
> Get the same effect but with out the visual un aesthetics, some folks like the mist though.



Thanks Tom. I thought they were those fuzzy hanging things, they seem to love glass. I am trying to figure out what it is on my tank. And folks on algae section are not sure. Do you know what it is? Picture below.


----------



## plantbrain

Hydra


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Are those serpae tetras in that shot? They are rediculously red if they are


Actually they are called rosy tetras (common wholesaler name), they are not serpae, look close though. They are from Florida commercial breeders. They are some variant within the Clade of rosy tetras, most of sort of..well, not so nice colored.
I've also had batches of NG Rainbow dwarfs that also where poorly colored vs the nicer red fin type.

I think I'll get some more.

Real nice fish, do not jump out and feed very well, not too chicken.
I might add them to my 70Gal woodagumi.


----------



## audioaficionado

Hmmm... I saw some roselines in a LFS that had hardly any red coloration. I'd hate to spend so much on 'em and find they were a dull variant.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

hmm i had some high fin serpae's that were really stunning on first round of the 29gallon. haven't cared to pick up more really. but the red would contrast well in ur woodagumi


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> hmm i had some high fin serpae's that were really stunning on first round of the 29gallon. haven't cared to pick up more really. but the red would contrast well in ur woodagumi


Green + red= Christmas eh?

Maybe I get a little Santa hat for the fish?


----------



## Storm

plantbrain said:


> I really tweak the CO2. I sold my old 120 Gal with a built in overflow because I could never get good stable CO2.
> 
> Broke the entire sucker down, sold it, bought all new tank and stand.
> The 1st incarnation was all Belem hairgrass, but I thought I have enough CO2? Heck no.......I did not........


Thank you for posting this. I am fairly new to the hobby, but I have been schooled by my tanks on this Co2 issue on more than one occasion. I have mistakenly thought my algae problem was due to macro dosing, micro dosing, and light, when it was low Co2 levels in every single case. Sometimes it is a combination of light and Co2, or too much light and not enough Co2, but it always comes down to consistency and keeping that drop checker in the lime-green color zone.

Personally I've learned the hard way that spending less money on an Aquatek regulator is not worth it, because the needle valve can't hold a consistent bubble rate. I should have purchased a good quality dual stage regulator and needle valve up front and saved myself the hassle. Diffusion methods and regulators; most hobbyists are not consistent and even a few days without the proper levels can start an algae bloom.

Thanks for the pictures of your beautiful tank.


----------



## Chlorophile

Really gorgeous tank - Haven't seen something look like this, done well, in ages.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> Green + red= Christmas eh?
> 
> Maybe I get a little Santa hat for the fish?


BWAHAHAHA! that would make my day if u photoshopped some hats on them


----------



## The Gipper

plantbrain said:


> The above old 120 had higher CO2 ppm measured...........than the new one........but I had issues with something. Not sure what, but I changed things till I got it fixed and went back and forth looking for something, or a way to model the successful tanks I had(which had the hang on vs the built in overflow).
> 
> I've seen plenty of overflow tanks that have done well, but I hate em.
> Always had better success without them and using the hang on overflows.
> 
> Without those other tanks, I'd be real tempted to blame other factors however. Particularly if a fellow local hobbyist had a nice tank with a built in overflow
> 
> For whatever reason, something was not right. Testing did not help, adjusting the light and the CO2 did. You will go back and forth on what causes issue or not, many many time in this hobby, if not, you are not thinking.


I want to go sump on my tank but noise is a real issue...from lots of reading on reef central I could use a herbie on a built in overflow to quiet but how do u quiet down a hob overflow? I'd go hob for better plant quality but have waf on the noise issue to contend with


----------



## plantbrain

Storm said:


> Thank you for posting this. I am fairly new to the hobby, but I have been schooled by my tanks on this Co2 issue on more than one occasion. I have mistakenly thought my algae problem was due to macro dosing, micro dosing, and light, when it was low Co2 levels in every single case. Sometimes it is a combination of light and Co2, or too much light and not enough Co2, but it always comes down to consistency and keeping that drop checker in the lime-green color zone.
> 
> Personally I've learned the hard way that spending less money on an Aquatek regulator is not worth it, because the needle valve can't hold a consistent bubble rate. I should have purchased a good quality dual stage regulator and needle valve up front and saved myself the hassle. Diffusion methods and regulators; most hobbyists are not consistent and even a few days without the proper levels can start an algae bloom.
> 
> Thanks for the pictures of your beautiful tank.


I was discussing this at meeting recently and with Tu here in CA............

So how is it I _KNOW_ it is a CO2 issue?
A lot of experience.

I have a client's tank set up, actually 3 of them...........and they have full autodosing and reservoir checks. So we KNOW those are stable. Lights are measured and on a timer. So we KNOW those also. Water changes, are automated using a float switch and drain pump also..on a timer, so we KNOW the water changes.

One thing that happens about once ever 6 months........is..........wait for it..........waiiitttt for it........the CO2 gas tank runs out.

Son of gun.....algae and slow plant growth, the look is just not right when I come to see the tanks. These tanks all use a needle wheel diffuser. So a snail decided to cram its shell in the impeller, so that was not working, fortunately, because I do have some experience, I run NW's in pairs, so I had some back up. I alos started adding Excel to the dosing system to address any algae issues that are post CO2 systems crashing.

Large manual water change also helps.

After a few years and many plant species, you can notice that something is just not quite right, you know what the plant looks like and is suppose to do and behave when the CO2 is correct.

I'm leary of suggesting 30ppm is optimal for CO2.
My data has measured CO2 all over the place. Drop checkers suck big toe.
Disc and diffusers need cleaning and need back pressure.
NW's has their own issues, but seem the most consistent and responsive.

Wet/drys, overflows, all those things are another set of issues with CO2.
Current is a yet another within the structure of a tank, and within the scape that was designed. Current is also affected GREATLY by the pruning routines that the aquarist does. O2 from good water movement, but not so much to drive off CO..is yet another issue.

All these things relate back to CO2..........it's not just add more CO2, that's the quick response....but that's not the solution in MANY cases. Some give up and run to ferts.........but that's a quitter's approach/lack fo mastery of the gas, and it shows a lack of understanding of how complex CO2 issues can be, stuff you'd might never think of, and some things very humbling. Amano himself can spin stories on CO2 disaster topics.

If you have not had them, then simply be patient, they will come.

So I have tried and invented a few different reactors over the years/decades................I think I've cooked this goose pretty well done by now.........but I still rely on the plants to tell me what I need to know. I also have gone as good as I need for the parts. Dual stage regs are great, but require some builds to do. I use the Victor single stages.......and then a nice Needle Valve, Ideal is a great company and they are always available. I get the brass and the Vernier handle, then a nice burket solenoid and an inline FPT low crack pressure Check valve post solenoid and some thick walled Tygon tubing, then a nice Needle wheel small sized pump(Taam Rio 1000 is the smallest I've found with a commercial NW impeller).

I'm adding some Clear PVC microbubble settling collectors prior to sending via the return pump to see if I can remove some of the bubbles for aesthetics more..........(some folks like them, I really do not).
So I do not settle for good enough.

I keep trying to improve it, many things do not work, but a few do.

Same with the scape, the lighting, etc.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> BWAHAHAHA! that would make my day if u photoshopped some hats on them


Elf fish

I could get a little bonsai Lodgepole or red cedar and called it a Xmas tree.


----------



## plantbrain

The Gipper said:


> I want to go sump on my tank but noise is a real issue...from lots of reading on reef central I could use a herbie on a built in overflow to quiet but how do u quiet down a hob overflow? I'd go hob for better plant quality but have waf on the noise issue to contend with


I think the external "bean animal" design is pretty darn quiet if noise is a big issue. I have little noise from the overflows I use now......but I over sized them for the flow and they seem to work better along with over sized wet/dry sections, this prevents so much back and forth gurgling and re pressurization.


----------



## audioaficionado

Don't forget the Christmas moss LOL.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

well since u know a lot about the needle wheel inudstry. how would one go about finding one for a sump build. i've often thought of doing it but everyone shoo'ed me away for fear of off gassing but since i've come to the conclusion that off gassin so far isn't bad with all my surface agitation and even a fine pore air stone run very low for good disolution. im ready to try a sump out and the cpr stuff really does look nice.

im looking at the cs50 overflow. its a 300gph.. what pump would you personally recommend for a 4 foot head? i will have a little restriction i nthe way with my cerge so im trying to get close to the 300 mark and i have no clue where to start with pumps


----------



## !shadow!

audioaficionado said:


> Don't forget the Christmas moss LOL.


x-mas moss on a piece of driftwood=your x-mas tree. oh and don't forget the starfish.


----------



## plantbrain

The Taam Rio company will sell you one directly(the impeller, and the pump if you want also).

I'd get the smallest they offer, a Rio 1000.

This could be ran into the reactor and then have that outflow feed directly into the return pump.

A separate return pump might be a wiser method, I've done the same return + a needlewheel impeller on the return, saving space and another pump etc......but then you have mist in the tank.

You could run the pump and the NW impeller outflow into a post Reactor to remove some of the mist.

This way you use a larger NW poump since it's also the return pump and you'd need a bit more head pressure to run through the reactor/bubble remover.

I have both on my tanks, the 120 here has the Lifegard return pump and I just feed it nothing special.......directly into the return. The 70 Gal and the 180........I use separate NW pumps.

So both work, the only question is do you want mist in the tank or reduce it a fair amount. 

Many ways to go with this, but they all "work".


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> well since u know a lot about the needle wheel inudstry. how would one go about finding one for a sump build. i've often thought of doing it but everyone shoo'ed me away for fear of off gassing but since i've come to the conclusion that off gassin so far isn't bad with all my surface agitation and even a fine pore air stone run very low for good disolution. im ready to try a sump out and the cpr stuff really does look nice.
> 
> im looking at the cs50 overflow. its a 300gph.. what pump would you personally recommend for a 4 foot head? i will have a little restriction i nthe way with my cerge so im trying to get close to the 300 mark and i have no clue where to start with pumps


This is a the 29 Gal tank?
W 4ft head, a Rio 2500 Ought to do fine and they sell those impellers everywhere. Then just use a the ball valve to reduce the flow to suit.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

so would it be feasible to just run the needle wheel as the return. or is it better to run return pump and needle wheel together?

that is the 29 gallon. the 75g is a build in progress right now but i haven't really made it public yet


also just updated the 29g with some shots from 12/05/2011. tank has really taken off since then.. especially the last few days

also did some diy led's on the fixture for nighttime viewing. which look absolutely sick. the shimmer affect is amazing and there is just enough light to see detail but not inconvenience the plants and fish. they do get turned off


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> so would it be feasible to just run the needle wheel as the return. or is it better to run return pump and needle wheel together?
> 
> that is the 29 gallon. the 75g is a build in progress right now but i haven't really made it public yet
> 
> 
> also just updated the 29g with some shots from 12/05/2011. tank has really taken off since then.. especially the last few days
> 
> also did some diy led's on the fixture for nighttime viewing. which look absolutely sick. the shimmer affect is amazing and there is just enough light to see detail but not inconvenience the plants and fish. they do get turned off


On the 29, likely simpler all in 1.
75 could go either way.

If you do 2x a week water changes etc when things are going well, dose thereafter, then that's about all you need to do, this takes care of many issues folks often have, but most slack off or think they are bad, too much etc.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

I LOVE WATER CHANGES! i've made them about as easy as possible without automating. the effect however is immediate on fauna. i like how everyone becomes more active 

im also going to say the cerge is a Godsend.. the inline atomizer has a mist just like what is picture in ur tanks.. pearlign was better. plant growth was not. c02 was very inconsistent apparently.


so u recommend 2 water changes a week consistently or taper them off over time?


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> I LOVE WATER CHANGES! i've made them about as easy as possible without automating. the effect however is immediate on fauna. i like how everyone becomes more active
> 
> im also going to say the cerge is a Godsend.. the inline atomizer has a mist just like what is picture in ur tanks.. pearlign was better. plant growth was not. c02 was very inconsistent apparently.
> 
> 
> so u recommend 2 water changes a week consistently or taper them off over time?


2-3 x a week if there is even an issue.
1x a week otherwise to be on the safe side.
If you have a high light driven tank, lots of stem plants, you get in there and trim, leaves flying everywhere as you use the chain saw to beat back the green hell............then you likely will do MORE water changes, vs say, like my Congo tank which had low input/output.

More growth, more output= more input of work, water changes etc.
Less output/trimming= less input of work, less doing, less critical issues with CO2/light etc.

One is production, the other is sustainability, they are DIFFERENT goals.
The 120 Gal high production (high production index).
The 180 is moderate production(sustainable/production weighted equally)
The 60p ADA almost zero production(far more sustainability index)
The Reef/Seagrass is low production
The 70Woodgumi is sustain/prod weighted equally.
The Wabi kusa bonasi redwood, is very low input.

Consistent stable CO2 is key.

If you like the LED's, I have a DIY 14x 3 W fixture that likely would fit the 29 nicely, more if you have a hood for it, it's more a retro fit set up. Price is right though.

Dimmer switch etc.

I switch to dimmable T5's so I'll not use them.

I have 2 such fixtures, they are about 21" long each with fans and a moon light.

I also have some nice Reef Evolution 60W pendents which are nice looking for sale too


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

NEGATORY on the led's just made some diy moonlights. they are sweet but i wouldn't want leds for the full sun effect.

dimmable 5's are probably more the route i'd go in the future

and i get there is more work. just the way u made it sound seemed like 2x a week would be more of a consistent recommendation.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> NEGATORY on the led's just made some diy moonlights. they are sweet but i wouldn't want leds for the full sun effect.
> 
> dimmable 5's are probably more the route i'd go in the future
> 
> and i get there is more work. just the way u made it sound seemed like 2x a week would be more of a consistent recommendation.


Well, yes, it is more consistent...........but there's that labor trade off.
While some folks might seem to do less work........each tank will behave differently....and require more/less work.

So easy water changes, variable lighting.........ADA As sediment or similar........lots of algae eaters........great CO2 equipment and few assumptions......good consistent trimming etc.......all this stuff adds up.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

I would agree. With ur statement. Im catching on. The learning curve has had me beat yet again. I will say the adition of more plants has helpped. Amanos.. eh they dont like my c02 much and jump ship. I cant increase 02 levels more without either a sump. Or ppressurized o2 injection. And if i can ill be a monkeys uncle

But things are improving. Thats for sure. 2 months ago i thought i had it. Sbeesh look where i am now. Anyways

Hows the 120?


----------



## plantbrain

I guess there's a steep curve for learning initially..........but the good horticulture is a key part that many obsessed with ferts miss, or light or CO2.......

Some get going well, then learn what they thought they knew.......is not quite right either.

If the CO2 is good and correct.........no Amano should jump out.

You might need barriers to keep them(stainless steel mesh?) in the tank, but they should never die or jump out, all be at/near the surface EVER.

The 120 is doing very well.

No issues.

The R macrandra has really taken off and the older pre planting old ratty lower stems are about a 1-2 weeks away from removal. R wallichii suddenly took off for some reason recently. Mowed the Gloss again and it is coming back fast. I need to figure out some different solution for the Fissidens branches and the Erios. The Erio setaceum I removed and placed in the 70 Gal recovered after the shrimp attack, seems the Fire shrimp really went after it. 

Conditions are identical except for plant species overall.
So I'm blaming the shrimp in light of few other alternatives.

UG has filled back in well.
Still waiting for A gracilius and perhaps another red plant for the right side.
The background plants are looking good, the P palustris will grow in a bit more, but that's just time at this point.

Thinking of making a full row of Tonina fluv.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

well he was never near the surface. just always hiding.. now he's disapeared..

what's wrong with the fissidens at this point? 
and im curious as to why you chose tonina? is it for shape or color?

in ur experience does macrandra do better with column ferts or root absorption? i still struggle a little with it.. newer leaves are comming out pretty good then fade away to green. so far i've noticed it responds well to c02 and brighter lights


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> well he was never near the surface. just always hiding.. now he's disapeared..
> 
> what's wrong with the fissidens at this point?
> and im curious as to why you chose tonina? is it for shape or color?
> 
> in ur experience does macrandra do better with column ferts or root absorption? i still struggle a little with it.. newer leaves are comming out pretty good then fade away to green. so far i've noticed it responds well to c02 and brighter lights


the feel of the fissidens is good when it comes to the texture and the color, but the placement, the shape, something.....it is just not right somehow.

I really do not seek to enunciate and describe something that does not feel/look right most times.........I just know it's not feeling it.

The Tonina is nice because it's got that bright green symmetrical shape and does nicely in groups. Many say it's hard to grow.....and it's not offered much on line......mine are quite larger than the ADA tank folks I've gotten stems from(about 2x dia). I wanted the Erio type 3, but the Fire shrimp pestered it.

Might take another stab later. 
The Mac has really taken off well now.
Very good color, large leaf size, a few good trims and a a few more weeks and I'll have a nice clean looking batch.

Mac is a good plant to see if you have most things doing well in the tank.
Root vs Shoot uptake is an old debate but I've seen EXCELLENT...examples using both methods. Steve and Jeff had real nice large groups of it in plain old sand and water column dosing.

Neil sold lots of nice stuff to the club for years using potting soil.

I'm using both sources, so either way...I'm covered. You need new healthy growth that has the same if not better color than what you got.

If not, something's not quite right.

For years, many folks struggled with various species......and most newbies go through a long path until they can grow any/every species well, some never make it to that goal.......you try various species and keep trying till you get it.

I refer to this as the "Still a plant killer crowd".:redface:
Done my share.

But I actively seek out fussy wimpy plants to see and use them as the "canary" in the coal mine, if they live and look nice..then everything else will do well also.

Likewise with toxicity for ferts, CO2, I chose high grade CRS...........or Discus.....or Xeno's or Cypris for Rift fish, or some species of plecos for O2 and CO2.....

It is a safe assumption...if those species do well and thrive.........then the tank is a good home for most every/anything else.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Makes sense. My crs survived just fine but for the sake of adding an angel they had to moved less they become scooby snacks.. 

As for mac. My new grwoth is brilliant red. It just doesnt stay that way so i know something is up just havent figured out what it is yet


----------



## plantbrain

Plants will translocate some things........but if the supplies are not present after.......then it does bode well. You are running out of something, CO2, ferts etc. Does not sound like light.

The stems I have are roughly 2.5-3 inches across on some of the nice sized stems, others are roughly 1-2". 

they have gotten 2x as large as the when I bought them and some came from a hobbyist tank that seem to grow them well......but they did not develop out nicely.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

most likely c02... its hard to run out of ferts. i've come to accept that.. i can wipe out gh booster and lose nothing. i can wipe out most other ferts for a week or so and still plants grow. well tank just got mowed today. had to add an airstone to balance out. fish were a little short on o2

i'll be taking notes from here on out.


----------



## plantbrain

Ferts are EASY.

CO2/circulation, trimming, etc, not so easy till you figure it out, get burnt a few times, thinking it was/had to be something else........uncertain........ self doubt.....believe a few myths.......go back and forth of them a few times.........

Done this many times.

I've also have the opportunity to see MANY different routines and other folk's tanks in person. Not just my own. Helped form a few different plant clubs, know the members and their tanks etc, and LFS etc also. This comparative approach/discussion in person is far more useful than anything on line.

The other things arethat you can vary the ferts over a wide range pretty easily without much risk, lower dosing= more frequent, higher dosing, less frequent etc, you can also vary the COI2 over a wide range(wider if you use wet/drys) and if you use suspension light like me.now you can vary all 3 Main variables for general plant growth, I also have rich ADA sediment and can rule that out when comparing to anything using ADA AS.

Here's a tank from the mid 1990's:


----------



## The Gipper

Cool tank with the growth out the top. Are they planted in containers near surface or on high placed wood?


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## plantbrain

The Gipper said:


> Cool tank with the growth out the top. Are they planted in containers near surface or on high placed wood?


There is a cork backing on the tank with Anubias and ferns, they just sit on that in the water.

No planters.


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## HD Blazingwolf

that's amazing.. that light looks redonkulously bright


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> that's amazing.. that light looks redonkulously bright


cause it is, 3.7W/gal of full MH's.........them turkeys think I've never used high light so I do not know what I'm talking about when I suggest using LESS:hihi: 

Been there and done this dozens of times and far higher PAR than most any folk.
This does not include the full sun pot test I did about 5 years ago.


----------



## lollerpoop

Full sun pot test?
Sorry for the OT question but could you tell more about it?
Or is there a thread somewhere?


----------



## plantbrain

lollerpoop said:


> Full sun pot test?
> Sorry for the OT question but could you tell more about it?
> Or is there a thread somewhere?


I have access to vaults outside with continuous flow through well water.
I tested a dozen sediment types with several aquatic plant species.

Not sure where the thread is, I posted it years ago.

Some pics:
L cuba:










UG:









Giant pondweed:


----------



## florini

Pot test, haha did I misinterpret that


----------



## lollerpoop

Holy cow.
How did they do in the long run?
My UG gets pale (burned?) if i put it under strong light,but then again it may be because its used to lowlight?
I wished i lived in a warmer climate so that i also could do some experiment.


----------



## plantbrain

lollerpoop said:


> Holy cow.
> How did they do in the long run?
> My UG gets pale (burned?) if i put it under strong light,but then again it may be because its used to lowlight?
> I wished i lived in a warmer climate so that i also could do some experiment.


The test part ran only 8 weeks to gauge growth rates between different sediment types.

Since the vaults are 400 gal and have continuous flow through, there's no leaching interaction effects between the pots into the water column.
I kept plants in a few vaults for 2 years or so.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

what are these vaults? and why do you have them? that's what im curious about

im also assuming it was with sun for lighting


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> what are these vaults? and why do you have them? that's what im curious about
> 
> im also assuming it was with sun for lighting


They are military coffins actually.
About 400 Gallons, they are at the Aquatic weed lab.
I do research killing aquatic weeds(my real job). But we have to grow them to better understand them.

Sun, yes, about 2000 umol, I ended using shade cloth for the long term test, 10%, so about 200 umol.


----------



## plantbrain

If you look at the R macrandra, I have 2 different variants, same tank, same age, but one is a more orange color, the other one is more red.

This suggest that light, nutrients, tank differences are not playing much role, rather, the phenotype of each variety I have. Some species of plants appear to have more red expression, independent of environmental conditions.

I thought it might be simply trimming and other forms of horticulture, but after a few weeks, it's become much more doubtful.

The replant and add new plugs worked well to refill the UG.
I actually am considering this for the 70 Gal wood/manzygumi tank after the HC runs its lifespan in that tank and I decide on something else.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

the color contrast is amazing between ur macrandra!

that sounds like an amazing job! what are the effects of 2000 umol of light over 200 umol? is there even a difference? just a guess here but i think that over a certain point of light, plants can use no more. but that leaves the question on here that everyone including myself brings up. why at 50 umol do we get algae but at 2000 plants are fine?

is it a lean water cloumn? does high PAR affect the water chemistry? 

what is it about synthetic lighting systems that produces light wavelengths that stimualte algae growth? or does that matter? these are the things i'd like to learn. 

i can see it happen everyday but i still look into my tank and see a few strands of black algae that no one else sees and i inwardly cry for not understanding 


EDIT: UG is beautiful when in full sway... i just couldn't handle it in my tank


----------



## orchidman

interesting on the macrandra!


----------



## plantbrain

Well, the plants have been kept now long enough to acclimate to the tank.........

I thought maybe...it was due to trimming.

But I've also seen some VERY nice orange type in many folk's tanks for years. 
Then the other club members had a deeper red, and then a mauve pinky like this.

I can change stuff with photoshop also, and get every color you have ever seen on line FYI.........but........that's not helping anyone.

If you knock the hue back or change individual colors, other parameters etc........then I can have eye popping color too

I think the main factors are more due to good general growth/CO2...and the type of lights for many color variable species also.

Intensity seems to play some role, but teasing that away from the rates of growth issue, vs the actual intensity causing it....thus indirectly related to the rates of growth, not intensity alone.

All it takes is someone else...growing nice red mac in less light, I happen to know and have had it shipped to me.........someone who grew the deepest red color I've seen ever. The bulb type played a role, they used potting soil and peat etc.

I've never believed in the wave lengths that help plants but hinder algae.

Plants at 2000umol have continuous flow through and large volumes of water........our tanks do not. If you did daily water changes, say 50%, then dosed after, you can add lots of light and have few algae issues.

The well water has about 7ppm N, 0.3ppm PO4 etc....... but the sediments are loaded. Those plants are not limited and the well water has good cO2, low, but ample.


----------



## plantbrain

Erio setaceum has amazingly recovered when I placed it in the 70 Gal woodagumi, the Type 3 giant E setaceum recovered much faster and is an easier to grow plant I would say. 

those pesky shrimp really chewed these two species up, but the Amano shrimp, the light, the CO2, sediment, ferts all are the same, so that could not be it.

I blame hungry RCS/Fire shrimp.

They ate the apical tips to a round dull stump. Have not pestered other species, the R wallichii a little bit, bt not much really.

I upped the feeding though recently.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

i guess continual flow would have a huge change.. speaking of shrimp.. i find my rcs turn EVIL when i introduce frozen bloodworms into their tank.. not that there arne't better foods but i like variety. (apparently they don't mind either) my fishies don't mind the baby rcs i feed them much either LOL


----------



## plantbrain

I have some double truck elephant noses that seem to enjoy low grade RSC.
But those are in another tank, I do have G elephas in this tank however. I've had him awhile(few years).


----------



## plantbrain

Update , sorry for outside dirty glass/poor depth of field  I plan some new plant species to be added this week and removed lot of downoi due to good sale price offer it. It's nice to have room to grow in.

So some new changes are on the way.
I have a good sized order coming in from several folks and we will see what looks good etc. Tank is cloudy after a trim. The Tonina is trimmed funny mostly because I have left of the older lower part in the soil to resprout new tops to fill up this section, but......I have another variety of Tonina coming in to try, so I might remove this.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

the contrast is devastating... my eyes just fell out of my sockets. the way the colors mix and contrast.. as well as the shapes.. im baffled


----------



## orchidman

Looks good! What plants did you order?!


----------



## jnaz

You can always send me the tonina if you get tired of it.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> the contrast is devastating... my eyes just fell out of my sockets. the way the colors mix and contrast.. as well as the shapes.. im baffled


I got lots of work yet to do.
the groups are not where I need them to be, but it's slowly getting there.


----------



## plantbrain

jnaz said:


> You can always send me the tonina if you get tired of it.


I got a lot of the Tonia lotus blossomroud:


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> Looks good! What plants did you order?!


Ammannia gracilus and the Tonina lotus blossom.

I might regrow some pantanal I have also.
It has a nice red color too., but it is weedy.......


----------



## tizzite

plantbrain said:


> So I have tried and invented a few different reactors over the years/decades................I think I've cooked this goose pretty well done by now.........but I still rely on the plants to tell me what I need to know. I also have gone as good as I need for the parts. Dual stage regs are great, but require some builds to do. I use the Victor single stages.......and then a nice Needle Valve, Ideal is a great company and they are always available. I get the brass and the Vernier handle, then a nice burket solenoid and an inline FPT low crack pressure Check valve post solenoid and some thick walled Tygon tubing, then a nice Needle wheel small sized pump(Taam Rio 1000 is the smallest I've found with a commercial NW impeller).


Thanks for this hardware recommendation. And the advice about CO2 and water changes to combat algae.

After the huge iwagumi fad I'm loving the strangled wood scapes a lot more. I still like iwagumi, but my next tank will probably focused on wood alone.

The colors in this tank are amazing.


----------



## plantbrain

Well figure you can try several designs over the tank's lifetime..........no rush, and you can have 3-5 tanks etc, I think more than 5-6 you really run yourself thin trying to keep up on them.

This tank has most of the labor, but still, I've got it down fairly well to 1 hour a week.

Other tanks take less time though.


----------



## green_valley

Tom, I have been looking your pictures of this tank since the first time you started it. I don't know if anyone has asked about this, but the water seems to be cloudy at times. Is this just the pictures? or any other cause to this?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

if u read a few posts after those. its cloudy from a trim or uprooting


----------



## plantbrain

green_valley said:


> Tom, I have been looking your pictures of this tank since the first time you started it. I don't know if anyone has asked about this, but the water seems to be cloudy at times. Is this just the pictures? or any other cause to this?


Gardening............ADA AS is cloudy after you pull up plants.
This clears up after a day or so. To show folks what the trim looks like AFTER, it's part of the game.
These pics are NOT meant to be a professional photo shoot. They are meant to illustrate the a typical gardening routine.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

so u've kinda covered this but im looking at a cpr sump and overflow setup. their overflox box is SICK

anyways did u do any special sealing or leave it like it is out of the box?


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> so u've kinda covered this but im looking at a cpr sump and overflow setup. their overflox box is SICK
> 
> anyways did u do any special sealing or leave it like it is out of the box?


As is, with the Tom's aqualift pump.
That's the trade off for those types of siphons.

I check to make sure they are running right weekly when I clean the prefilter sponge. They also catch the week's culls of Fires/RCS.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

ok kewlness ican handle having an aqualifter


----------



## plantbrain

Added the ATI finally.

I'll have a nice mix of Red/purple, 6500K, and blue special lighting. 
I've come to really like the purple addition, really adds something to the tank's colors. I really did not think it would.....

Hopefully, if I can get the Erio setaceum growing nicely in my other tank, then add it back, they stronger growth will prevent the fire shrimp attack. At least I have some back up and can return the poor plant back if the shrimp just will not leave it alone.

I plan on moving the C parva upfront after fight it for several months.
It's just got the right contrast and growth habit that the spot requires, the Fissidens is going up on some wood higher up.

This will free up a section in the rear L which will have the Red low grow hygro added and I have some Ammania gracilius(might be a Nesesa however) that I might use to replace the Mermaid weed in the rear. I like the mermaid weed, but the Ammania will lend a better contrast to that section and fill in denser. No one will buy mermaid weed either

Last but not least, the Tonina "lotus blossom" will need a new home somewhere in this mish mash. This is a cool plant.

I guess I'll also resign myself to frequent trims for the pantanal and add it to the far Right red foreground row. Least till I see another nice red plant that fits the spot better.

In order to maintain a nice Ludwigia "Red" row up front, I think I'll have to stick with the uproot and replant the tops methods, topping alone did not look as nice and recovery was paler.
What you see in the lats pic is the recovery after about 2-3 weeks.
If you can wait that long for recovery, topping does work well.

I sold 24 downoi. So I just have a few scraps left now. They will recover, but I should have sold less, but at 140$ for them, well, hard to say no when I know they will grow back.

Nothing is permanent

I did the same with the Pantanal about 1 month ago.
Now I'm trying to grow it back:redface:

Feast or famine.


----------



## OG_Plantmore

Awesome. Can't wait to see the pics. I love the contrasts in this tank.


----------



## ibmikmaq

I can look at this thread over and over again! This tank is an inspiration to this hobby! Taking it to an artistic perspective! It's like an constant evolving painting! Always look forward to new pictures added! I must have went thru this thread at least two dozen times page to page!


----------



## plantbrain

Well, some things about this tank I have fought with doing or not for some time actually.

Plant locations and spots, the gardening parts........etc.
Some things I wanted in certain spots and tried many alternatives to suit my vision, but the reality of the species contrast and avail options sank in for some spots. Others, worked out well. 

I had a 120 Gal, different shape, but I had algae issues if I increased the light. Pestered me. 

So I finally figured out the degassing issue and corrected that asap in this tank before I got started. 

So both equipment and gardening fights.


----------



## chad320

Did you get your Ammania gracillis in? Can we see some pics?


----------



## plantbrain

chad320 said:


> Did you get your Ammania gracillis in? Can we see some pics?


It's odd looking.

I'm not certain it is Ammannia, looks a bit more like a Neasea. Nice and red though, but smaller and pointed leaf tips, not slightly rounded.

Anyway, It's replaced the Mermaid weed in the rear. I'd originally wanted to keep it up front for one of the rows, but I think it'll look better and fill in dense in the rear section. I ordered from two folks, so we will see, I can get it locally at some shops perhaps if I happen to come on the right day.

I made most of the changes listed above today.

I also FIGURED out WHY I was getting this weird dark brown edge where the water and the glass/air meet, I thought it was some sort of algae, nope.......it was just ADA soil dust that had stuck to the side of the glass.


----------



## chad320

Funny you say that. I was looking at N. crassicaulis and thinking they looked similar. Mine is SUPER red by the lights and even the stem is red.


----------



## plantbrain

chad320 said:


> Funny you say that. I was looking at N. crassicaulis and thinking they looked similar. Mine is SUPER red by the lights and even the stem is red.


Bet it's the same thing!!!

Ammannia gracilius is more orangy, large.....like the biggest P stellata plants. 
Still gets the same size and the leaves are as long, up to 2cm wide. It's a big plant when happy and grown correctly, and it'll do well, even in lower 2x 40W t12 bulbs on a 55 Gal tank.

I'm fine with the mistake. It works and have a nice different color/texture for the fill in spot.


----------



## chad320

I'd still like a shot at the real thing. If you find some LMK and im still hunting on my end. I really do like the N. crassicaulis. Its a beautiful stem plant anyway you grow it.


----------



## plantbrain

Took some light reading at max intensity with the ATI fixture. 

@12" from the water's surface: 500 umol.
Middle along the sediment: 180-190umol
Bottom corners/front, 140-150umol.

Butt load of light.

I'm removing a purple and adding another white colored bulbs and removing thh Aquaflora in the rear and going with an Aquawave red.

Fish color is 10X better.

I think I figured out how specifically ATI gets some of the increase in lighting, the reflectors are specific and do not cause spill over into the room nearly as much as the Tek.

It's a huge improvement to the living area!
LED's do this same thing when designed correctly.

I estimated I'd get 175 umol or so, and that is just about right.

I got 120 umol or about *45% increased vs Tek at the same distances.*
Now........I can use this increase various ways with the ATI..........I can dial down the % on the dimmer, or I can add a midday spike(or several small spikes) and/or shorter the photoperiod. I have many options.

The fixture does not look nearly as bright, but......... the light meter does not lie.


----------



## zergling

That's why the reef folks vouch for the ATI - you really get what you pay for.

Is the Tonina Fluvitalis as weedy as the Ludwigia Red? My rotala indica is always getting dominated over by the ludwigia red, so I'm not getting the contrast I want.....


----------



## chad320

Tonina fluvatilis is a medium/slow grower and likes softer water.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

jeeebus.. that's a butcrack load of light. im not experience enough to handle that much intensity


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> That's why the reef folks vouch for the ATI - you really get what you pay for.
> 
> Is the Tonina Fluvitalis as weedy as the Ludwigia Red? My rotala indica is always getting dominated over by the ludwigia red, so I'm not getting the contrast I want.....


No, it's rather a tougher for propagating more shoots, but can be done if you have decent trimming skills and allow the stumps enough lighting.
It's a bit of a challenge to fatten up a thicker large stand vs ANY Red Ludwigia, which is frankly VERY easy.

But the plant does grow fast/well per stem. Some find it easier than S. belem, but much harder to get side shoots etc.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> jeeebus.. that's a butcrack load of light. im not experience enough to handle that much intensity


I had these light levels prior, so I know more what I am doing, but I also showed what could be done on this same tank without this much light, so I know how to run tanks with various light intensities well.

This has little to nothing to do with dosing and fussing with that.
It has FAR MORE to do with good basic horticultural care of the tank.
I cannot impress upon other folks this last bit of advice.

I move plants around, try different things etc.
A few new stem plant O month have been tried in this tank and have all done well except the Erio that got eaten by the Fire shrimp.

I did all the moves as I'd stated and tried to move the Crypt parva as a mat vs untangling the plants and replanting individually. 

As Chad320 suggest, I'm positive the red Ammannia is really a Nesea. I sort of wanted that plant anyway

I have to be careful though, too many species will spoil the pot here.
I need to get some more bulbs to work with still.

I know the types I like and the fish look so much better with this combo so far vs the Giesemann.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

In that reqard what is ur total bulb choice? I also did get some starcoats. They look way better than the previos noonday bulbs. Which were aquawave. I believe


----------



## plantbrain

Well, bulb choice will depend on the no# of bulbs you run/can run.

The old Tek fixture has a switch, I could run the outside 4x 54W lights or the middle or both sets.

However, I could not do a say........a noon day burst unless I manually remembered to do so. 

With the ATI, I can fully use all 8 bulbs......any possible way I want.
GE's are good and cheaper.

I like the ATI blue specials and their purple, then a red bulb, with several white GE's mixed in but still looking and trying different bulbs out.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

ahd yes my tek has two cords. so separate timers helps with noonday fun 

and i am envious of how much control u have on ur lights.. again i dont have the experience to mess with that yet


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> ahd yes my tek has two cords. so separate timers helps with noonday fun
> 
> and i am envious of how much control u have on ur lights.. again i dont have the experience to mess with that yet


If you have a suspension light, then you are most of the way there and can change things as desired.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Si senor. But dimmable sounds sooooo cool. Especially since its not a timer automated dimmer. It actually is controllable to the enth degree. But ur right im close. I have 6 leds attached to the bottom of the tek that are about 1 par at substrate those come on with c02 an hour and half before my 10 hour giese combo. Then i have a 3 hour noonday with starcoats. Then lights off total but leds for an hour for viewing pleasure.. not nearly as cool as dimmcomputerised fixture with what u say 6 bulbs? Still jealous i am.


----------



## plantbrain

There is a steep price for envy


----------



## manualfocus

I'm curious, and I don't know if this has been asked yet, but do you ever sell the Fire Reds you have in this tank? You must have a boat load from the initial 500.


----------



## lbacha

plantbrain said:


> There is a steep price for envy


 
Just have people check the price for a T5 HO dimmable ballast (Advance makes them) they are at least $150 for a two bulb ballast (And thats their cheapest version). If you consider this then the ATI is really not that bad a price.

Len


----------



## plantbrain

lbacha said:


> Just have people check the price for a T5 HO dimmable ballast (Advance makes them) they are at least $150 for a two bulb ballast (And thats their cheapest version). If you consider this then the ATI is really not that bad a price.
> 
> Len


Yes, but you still need a controller to run it.
Now you at 250-300$.

So you could DIY a Tek or other fixture etc.........but now you are nearing the same cost trade off as the ATI.


----------



## lbacha

plantbrain said:


> Yes, but you still need a controller to run it.
> Now you at 250-300$.
> 
> So you could DIY a Tek or other fixture etc.........but now you are nearing the same cost trade off as the ATI.


I was looking at a dimmable 2x 54w t5 ho fixture from ecozone for $239.00 plus $389 for the controller, while I know it does more than just control lights the ATI is a deal if you compare them $509 at marine depot for a 4 x 54w. Let me ask how controllable is the dimming can you do a dawn to dusk affect with them or is the dimming in steps? How interactive is the controller if I can program it to come on slowly over and hour or so and go off the same way then I'll probably order one it will have a lot more future flexibility for me.

Len


----------



## plantbrain

lbacha said:


> I was looking at a dimmable 2x 54w t5 ho fixture from ecozone for $239.00 plus $389 for the controller, while I know it does more than just control lights the ATI is a deal if you compare them $509 at marine depot for a 4 x 54w. Let me ask how controllable is the dimming can you do a dawn to dusk affect with them or is the dimming in steps? How interactive is the controller if I can program it to come on slowly over and hour or so and go off the same way then I'll probably order one it will have a lot more future flexibility for me.
> 
> Len


The dimming is almost like the sun itself, it's a smooth as baby's butt.
I've had various lighting configs over the years, but this is actually really soothing to me and to the home where I live.

This holds a lot more meaning and sense of well being to the home than what I am expressing. It's not a jarring on/off type of thing and you can barely notice the changes, it goes from 0-100%(or any %) over whatever time frame you desire.

Say you want to go from 0-45% over 2 hours, not an issue, then from 45% to 80% over another 1.5 hour span, then 80% to 100% over 30 minutes, then back down after to 60% over 2 hours, not an issue.

One simple cord, one simple nice looking fixture.

Here's the REAL killer for the converted TEK system however, I get 40-50% more light. And I can use the controller functions to use less energy, as well as getting more light.

So if you add extra $ for the extra light, it's hard to beat then.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> The dimming is almost like the sun itself, it's a smooth as baby's butt.
> I've had various lighting configs over the years, but this is actually really soothing to me and to the home where I live.
> 
> This holds a lot more meaning and sense of well being to the home than what I am expressing. It's not a jarring on/off type of thing and you can barely notice the changes, it goes from 0-100%(or any %) over whatever time frame you desire.
> 
> Say you want to go from 0-45% over 2 hours, not an issue, then from 45% to 80% over another 1.5 hour span, then 80% to 100% over 30 minutes, then back down after to 60% over 2 hours, not an issue.
> 
> One simple cord, one simple nice looking fixture.
> 
> Here's the REAL killer for the converted TEK system however, I get 40-50% more light. And I can use the controller functions to use less energy, as well as getting more light.
> 
> So if you add extra $ for the extra light, it's hard to beat then.


 

you may not be a salesperson but you sure can sell that product


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> AGAIN i think i just came.
> you may not be a salesperson but you sure can sell that product


If I like something, it'll sell itself.

But, it's still a very costly item, like ADA etc, but still quite a bargain vs the grand solar.


----------



## lbacha

plantbrain said:


> If I like something, it'll sell itself.
> 
> But, it's still a very costly item, like ADA etc, but still quite a bargain vs the grand solar.


The key people need to realize is the price is very relative (This ATI has many more, expensive, features than an ADA light), for what you get it is a bargain, is it alot more than a non dimmable light? of course it is but then you are comparing two different things. The technology to dim florescent tubes is expensive especially for T5 HO's (T8 dimmable ballasts start around $50 to give you a comparison so they arn't cheap either) I'm probably going to to order one in the next couple weeks because now that I've looked into it it is a much better deal than ordering the ballasts, fixture and controller seperatly like I was going to do. Thanks for answering all the questions you have because I always feel better buying something when someone has given it a good review regardless of the cost or features.

Thanks Len


----------



## plantbrain

Hi Len,
I have NOT reviewed the component DIY stuff, but the ATI at least thus far, have been quite nice.

So I cannot say other than the cost factors.
Active fan cooling, good reflectors specific to aquariums, spacing etc......these can be factored and then the final PAR measurements done, the real factors etc, we are concerned with.

I cannot say there. 

Just things like TEK, ADA, ATI, and other lights I've had over the years and that I have measured using the light meter.

It's still a lot of $$$$.

But I have a fair amount invested in the tank, stand, filtration, sediment, plants, went and collected my wood and scoured the forest etc for the right pieces. So to me, the relative aspect is okay, but ........it's still a lot of $ for what you get, a light.

10 years ago?
No way.


----------



## typically

Tom, i gotta say thanks for a great journal. It took a bit of reading but it was very informative and made me re-consider what i had learned about dosing and Co2. Hopefully i can actually put some of it to use in my tanks, thanks again!!


----------



## The Gipper

How do you configure the ATI dimmable feature? Is it done via a control panel on the light fixture or by some other means?


----------



## plantbrain

The Gipper said:


> How do you configure the ATI dimmable feature? Is it done via a control panel on the light fixture or by some other means?


It's pretty user friendly. Front small discrete panel, 5 way toggle buttons.
Instructions are not clear, but the website for ATI makes it easy.

Say I want to go from say 0-20% light intensity for channel 1...........say I want to do it over 20 min, I set the unit to come ON at 8:00 am, then set the next node for 20% at 8:20. the unit till come on and evenly ramp up the intensity from 0-20% over 20 mins.

I can then have the intensity go from 8:20 am to 9:00 am from 20% to say 100%. Same thing.

It's really a nice feature.

Add that with more intensity, less over spray into the home.


----------



## green_valley

plantbrain said:


> The dimming is almost like the sun itself, it's a smooth as baby's butt.


That smooth huh Tom?:hihi::hihi:


----------



## plantbrain

green_valley said:


> That smooth huh Tom?:hihi::hihi:


Yep, got a baby right here and the comparison is verified. 
Baby is louder, stinkier, but cuter than the ATI, cost more too.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

AWW really? boy or girl? and they only get louder  i have 2


----------



## Drink_soy_sauce

This tank looks so good it makes me want to quit even trying to aquascape! haha.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> AWW really? boy or girl? and they only get louder  i have 2


Girl, thus death curdling screams await on the 5th level of hell. My son is grown(25yo) though.


----------



## green_valley

plantbrain said:


> Girl, thus death curdling screams await on the 5th level of hell. My son is grown(25yo) though.


Yikes, a baby and 25 yo. That's a lot of gap Tom :biggrin:



Drink_soy_sauce said:


> This tank looks so good it makes me want to quit even trying to aquascape! haha.


To me, this inspires me to do better.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

I SEE. and yes they are.. my daughters has the scream... YIKES... i feel your pain

and jeez here i am 25.. i didn't think u were in more than ur mid 30's if i was to guess


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> I SEE. and yes they are.. my daughters has the scream... YIKES... i feel your pain
> 
> and jeez here i am 25.. i didn't think u were in more than ur mid 30's if i was to guess


Add a decade.
Most think I'm a really old grey beard. 
I went to some AGA events and some folks got really upset since they have an idea of what I looked like(crotchety old man). Folk on the web are VERY different than in person.

I always keep that in mind.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> Add a decade.
> Most think I'm a really old grey beard.
> I went to some AGA events and some folks got really upset since they have an idea of what I looked like(crotchety old man). Folk on the web are VERY different than in person.
> 
> I always keep that in mind.


hahah ur not crotchety.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> hahah ur not crotchety.


Some here certainly would disagree with you, keep up the lie roud:

I redid some of the tank today, tried some different bulb configs, but not as happy as I'd hoped, still have 3-4 brands to play with and see.

URI's red sun is extremely red.
Likely does well for the plants, but boy is it's deep red bulb like I've never seen.

I pulled up the Downoi, will try and relocate and placed the Erio setaceum in that spot for now, I'll check the next couple of days to see if the Fires are eating on it.

I have the Tonina fluviatus and the T. "lotus blossom" which is about 1/3 the size of the normal Tonina. Seems to branch and for more side shoots, nice plant really.

I do not have a good spot for that really and the Erios as well, I think the Type 3 Erio setaceum is a better fit for this tank and I might try those and keep the type 1(normal E setaceum) in the woodagumi display, finally added fish to that.

Still playing with the left front corner and moved the C parva up there with the Fissidens.

Should get pics sometime this coming week.


----------



## plantbrain

I've got some stuff crammed in while they recover and moved some things around to see and explore what works nice and looks good in certain spots, scape wise, this is lousy.........but it can be recovered easily and phased in/out.

Background plants have done well and are fairly stable in the groupings I want. 
I need some more work on the front right, I have 2-3 pieces of wood that will make the border look better between the Fissidens and the C parva and the Erios. I'll trim the UG back and leave some open space there also.

Right side has some more grow out to do for the pantanal/Tonina and I'm undecided on Downoi, it's a nice plant though.. so it's hard to consider removing it.
I'll go through and make more distinction between the groups later on, that's a final trim and rework prior to a prime photoshoot.
Or.........if I just feel like doing it regardless of the status of the group/s.

I'm still playing around with various bulb configurations.


----------



## !shadow!

The reds really draw your eyes to that spot. I like the Contrast of the fissidens and erios side by side as well.


----------



## plantbrain

!shadow! said:


> The reds really draw your eyes to that spot. I like the Contrast of the fissidens and erios side by side as well.


The moss log is an old old Dutch technique. I've rarely seen ADa use it, but it is very effective.

You use the branches with moss to make borders instead of raw wood like I did here.

I saw this in one tank that was truly nice. 

Most Dutch scapes today employ only 1 piece of moss log since it would get more points than a fan shape or a bunch of them, they want contrast with plants. I'm doing that here, and will redo that contrast with the right piece of wood.

I must have 2 tons of wood and many smaller pieces but I think I might have the right piece finally after months of searching and trying for the Fissidens.

It's been one of those spots that's a son of gun.


----------



## akpoly

This tank has so much color and variation I love it. Your erio seem to be doing really well. Are those the japans?


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Which GE bulb, Tom? The GE 6500K has a green tint to it.
> 
> (Top)
> GE 6500K
> ATI Aqua Blue Special
> ATI Purple Plus
> UVL AquaSun
> (Bottom)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ATI Purple Plus brings reds very well, but also brings out blues. It also needs other "daylight" bulbs to prevent it from making the tank look too blue/purple. That setup above ended up with a very slight blue tint. Only noticeable to me because the wall behind the tank is white.
> 
> 
> 
> The UVL Red Sun below is VERY red. Unfortunately, I broke the bulb before I got to see it on my tank.
> GE6500K up top, UVL Red Sun at the bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ATI Pro Color was very good in bringing out reds and oranges when I had it in the past. Unfortunately, I think it's been discontinued....or at least it's not in the list of my go-to lights vendor anymore.
> 
> I know I tried the GE 3000K before, but just don't remember how it looks like, anymore.


I have some of these now, the Blue and purples need more white to balance them, they ended up looking more like a reef lighting than planted tank.

The URI is insanely red.............even the reflection freaked me out a little too much. The PAr is decent and it's down at that real red end of spectrum.

An interesting thing, if you have these as your dusk/dawn channel lights, then it'll be that nice "red" sunset effect.


----------



## Chlorophile

So much erio.. jealous.


----------



## Jeff.:P:.

very Nice tank, I have the ATI fixture as-well. 
What combo are you using? 
Thanks


----------



## plantbrain

akpoly said:


> This tank has so much color and variation I love it. Your erio seem to be doing really well. Are those the japans?


Which erios? I have the more prostrate E cinerums, then the Erio setaceum which was just added, I removed the Erio setaceum type 3 that where beign attacked by the fire shrimp.


----------



## plantbrain

Jeff.:P:. said:


> very Nice tank, I have the ATI fixture as-well.
> What combo are you using?
> Thanks


Dimmer sunpower.

I have GE, ATI, Aquaqwave on here now, but that will change.
Still seeing what I like and looks best.


----------



## Jeromeit

Hey tom, if you ever decide on trimming your glandulosa or peruensis please let me know! No one seems to have it in stock.. weird..


----------



## plantbrain

Jeromeit said:


> Hey tom, if you ever decide on trimming your glandulosa or peruensis please let me know! No one seems to have it in stock.. weird..


How much did you need?

I might move some things around and I can always get some/grow more etc.


----------



## 5150munky

Always amazing us with your tank! Love the full growth! You did it again, Tom.


----------



## dantra

plantbrain said:


>


Tom this particular photo reminds me of autumn in New England particularly New Hampshire. I was with a buddy of mine flying over to Maine from New Hampshire years back and your plant selection/aquascape from above reminds me of the scenery when I looked out of the window of the plane into the mountians.

If you've been to New England during the fall, you"ll know exactly what I mean. That photo is simply beautiful. roud:

Dan


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

does one outlet create all the surface agitation in this tank?

and where did u get the clear pvc tube?? i have to have that.. instantly in my life


----------



## RiseAbove

ive gotta pay attention to your postings of stems for sale!! all your plants look amazing, would love to see this in person.


----------



## prototyp3

So can we call this a natural dutch? Seems to flow and feel more natural than a lot of the dutch tanks I've seen. Gorgeous tank.


----------



## So_Fishy

Your tank is one of my favorites here! Great work.. love love love this tank!


----------



## plantbrain

dantra said:


> Tom this particular photo reminds me of autumn in New England particularly New Hampshire. I was with a buddy of mine flying over to Maine from New Hampshire years back and your plant selection/aquascape from above reminds me of the scenery when I looked out of the window of the plane into the mountians.
> 
> If you've been to New England during the fall, you"ll know exactly what I mean. That photo is simply beautiful. roud:
> 
> Dan


Grew up in Indiana where we have those same tree color changes, knew every species of tree with or without leaves. Brown County State park was known for those fall changes. 

Not sure that was the draw here however.

At least for myself.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> does one outlet create all the surface agitation in this tank?
> 
> and where did u get the clear pvc tube?? i have to have that.. instantly in my life


Yes, the flow shoots across the top surface horizontally.

US plastics, there's a dozen or so places that sell clear PVC.
Not cheap either.


----------



## Jeromeit

plantbrain said:


> How much did you need?
> 
> I might move some things around and I can always get some/grow more etc.


Not much 5 stems? Please let me know  I posted a wtb on the Barr Report


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

must have been cheap enough for you, you crotchety old man! LOL!
i bet you haggled the price till they gave it to you.

back to the tank
it really is a shame that im about 900000 miles away from u or i'd personally pay to see this tank in person
just wont pay 17 days in a car and about 700 bux in gas pictures will DO


----------



## plantbrain

prototyp3 said:


> So can we call this a natural dutch? Seems to flow and feel more natural than a lot of the dutch tanks I've seen. Gorgeous tank.


I'm not sure, it does not fit well into the basic styles.
This was not my intent, I designed it more as a utilitarian garden that used branches to separate the plant rows is all.

This could/can be done with rocks also, wood wood looks more natural generally for rows of plants flowing out like a root mass. Rocks really do not possess that form like wood.

I liked the contrast I saw with wood and H difformis in a book and then used the wood. Later, I roped some moss on the straighter branches to add more plant biomass and noticed the darker cool fine textured moss contrasted well.

I sort of had the intent to do that in this tank, but ended up not bothering and worried the moss will(and does) infest everything. Moss tends to be a nuisance like Riccia but not quite as bad.

I do agree, it does have a more natural flow than some dutch tanks, but the Dutch style is not met in many ways here either. Natural materials garden spacing is about the closest thing I can come up with.


----------



## plantbrain

Jeromeit said:


> Not much 5 stems? Please let me know  I posted a wtb on the Barr Report


There's several places on ebay that have it and decent deals, good quality etc.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> must have been cheap enough for you, you crotchety old man! LOL!
> i bet you haggled the price till they gave it to you.
> 
> back to the tank
> it really is a shame that im about 900000 miles away from u or i'd personally pay to see this tank in person
> just wont pay 17 days in a car and about 700 bux in gas pictures will DO


Well, you'll see soon enough the cost of the clear PVC.

I'll likely do a HD video sometime.


----------



## plantbrain

The right side is going to get a rework this weeke/end etc.

I'll move the Red pantanal one row over next to the large Erio type 3 which recovered nicely away from hungry Fire shrimp, we will see if it stays in good shape or not.

Then the Tonina will move to the Pantanal's spot.










Not sure what to do with the Tonina Lotus blossom, I like the plant, but cannot keep it close to the normal Tonina(which is a better fit for this tank in general).
T. lotus blossom is a neat type however, so I'm very relucant to part with it.

I have some error in a plant order, I was shipped A gracilius but got Nesaea crassilius, which is frankly rarer and a very nice red plant, so I may move the L peruiesis out and over the far L and add the Nesaea in that spot to allow it to fill in nice and fully. Then eventually get the Ammannia for the rear(I can fill in back there with most anything really).

This will add another Red row and keep with the motif of every other one red and different leaf shape and texture.

The new bulbs have turned the D diandra very red. I have some H hottoniifolia in the rear corner, but I might just remove it and allow the weird bright green plant I keep forgetting the name of (genus starts with a "P"). the grouping got too small I feel and "collectortisy".

The wood is new and I've yet to reposition this side, but I shall in the week or so. The wood will soon blend in well with the other wood and I need to replant the UG on that side, it's about 4" deep right now.





















The corner has the Red lower growing hygro which is a nice low maintenance plant. It'll take a month or two to fill in in the darker corner. 

I'll need to thin some thing over on the Far Left side also, but most of the species will still stay as is.

2 biggest issues are if/where to keep: Downoi and the Lotus Blossom.
2 very nice plant species I'd rather keep.

If they can find a suitable home, I'm 80-90% of the way there, then the rest is just pruning and less moving stuff around and trying out various species.

BTW, light is only on for 7 hours, and it takes about 1 hour for the 2x54 W to come on and hit 100%, then the other 6 bulbs come on and it takes them another 1 hour to hit 100%, then at the end, both sets slowly drop off over 1 hour from 100% down to 0%.

So the lights are only on full blast for 5 hours, the CO2 comes on when the 1st pair is warming up, so it's cranked well when the full set starts to fire up.
The CO2 goes off about 45 min before the last bit of light hits the plants.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

the hygro looks very interesting. i've never seen that plant before and ur glandulosa almost looks purple.. is that lighting or plant specific color. my species is dark red, not very bright. almost bland. 

urs is pretty 


add the plastic is cheaper than u lead me to believe.. you almost scared me. but it is pretty expensive  thanks for the warning


----------



## plantbrain

I topped the Ludwigia peruinesis, the smaller new growth was shaded and will not have as intense color till it grows out some. The same is true for the Ludwigia "red" and most plants, but after they grow out, they quickly redder up nicely.

Or you can simple replant the tops to keep the color, but that's more mess and work.

the Red low grow hygro will fill in and thicken up pretty nice in this spot, I have had it and abused it in the same spot with lesser care than this tank gets and it did very well.


----------



## CL

The tank looks absolutely stunning, Tom! :thumbsup:


----------



## plantbrain

CL said:


> The tank looks absolutely stunning, Tom! :thumbsup:


All I see is more work and indecision

But....I do see light at the end of the tunnel for this scape.

There is an end point where I'll be happy.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

I' requestion this. ur glandulosa if i am correctly identifying the plant looks purple. is this species specific or a byproduct of light reflection?

mine looks a deep bland red. its nice but urs is very pretty. i'd be interested in what causes your plant to look this way


----------



## plantbrain

Ferts, good CO2 and light, there's no trickery here.

I've been saying this for 20 years.

I do not treat any plant "special", never have. 
They might be given more space or a sweet spot, but otherwise, not much.

When L pernuesis is happy, it'll take on that purple burgundy hue.
I've seen some Asian scapes using lots of it(almost like their scape competition required a certain amount % of red stem plants), they had similar coloration. It is not a hard plant to grow and has been in the hobby a long time, easy to grow emergent also.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> I' requestion this. ur glandulosa if i am correctly identifying the plant looks purple. is this species specific or a byproduct of light reflection?
> 
> mine looks a deep bland red. its nice but urs is very pretty. i'd be interested in what causes your plant to look this way


If you look at the front and some of the understory stems of it, you'll note it's redder and less purple, this is because those are younger and side shoots after I topped the stems, typically I only top and replant those tops.
If I top the plants and do not remove the lower stems and allow them to sprout, the side shoots take about 1-2 weeks o develop into deeper red/purple color.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

so i miss identified the plant. i thought it was glandulosa.. mine grows great just not purple.. its red is on point for mots of he glandulosa i've seen. i've just notice as u have with macranda recently that two plants can be different species and be in the same tank with same conditions and be differently colored

and try to keep me in mind when u go to get rid of L pernuesis 

i'd like some purple in ma tank


----------



## zachary908

HD Blazingwolf said:


> so i miss identified the plant. i thought it was glandulosa..
> 
> and try to keep me in mind when u go to get rid of L pernuesis


L. Gladulousa is the same thing as L. peruensis
Just two different names. Same plant.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> so i miss identified the plant. i thought it was glandulosa.. mine grows great just not purple.. its red is on point for mots of he glandulosa i've seen. i've just notice as u have with macranda recently that two plants can be different species and be in the same tank with same conditions and be differently colored
> 
> and try to keep me in mind when u go to get rid of L pernuesis
> 
> i'd like some purple in ma tank


Same plant. 

I removed the browner var of the Red mac, so it's a nice mauve coloration and a deeper red with less lighting. I like the glow in the dark mauve color though.


----------



## plantbrain

zachary908 said:


> L. Gladulousa is the same thing as L. peruensis
> Just two different names. Same plant.


+1

Thanks


----------



## plantbrain

Type 1 and type 3 Erio setaceum:









The problem ATM Right hand side:









the Tonina lotus blossom needs to grow out and I can trim off the ratty lower parts, some with the lower stems on the regular Tonina, then I need to allow the Red Pantanal to fill in that row fully. 

I'm considering replacing the Gloss with the Downoi and allowing the Downoi to fatten up and make a green triangle. Gloss is a bit more work and stays lower in general, nice contrast here. But that was never the original intent either. Downoi is a nice easy plant that would make a nice contrast as well in this same spot. 

The last thing is the Nesaea in the rear and the Ammannia gracilius which I have not yet located. I'll get some and make some changes in the shape of the groups in the rear.

Otherwise, as long as the shrimp do not eat the Erios, I'm pretty close to having things stable and where I want.

Then it's trim trim trim and wait for the right timing.


----------



## plantbrain

I thinned out the Ech vesuvius and uprooted a fair amount and moved the pantanal today before the lights came on.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

ahh well indeed it is true. you learn something every day!


----------



## plantbrain

I'm going to yank the Gloss, maybe I'll make a mat on the 60p, I've got it growing on 2 Bonsai outside quite well.

I'll add the Downoi in that spot, also a nice bright green.

That will open up and solve one location.

Now, just 1-2 more spots.


----------



## plantbrain

Will upload some pics of the redone areas tomorrow of Tues, hacked the UG, so if you want to get some, I have plenty of real healthy stuff in another plant sales/swap thread.

Makes a mess and dust from the ADA AS, but it also cleans the tank up some afterward and removes the much.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

can we get a link to the thread?


----------



## plantbrain

UG aftermath 

no more Gloss and the ratty corner, at least for now...










You can see where I'm sprouting the stumps from the Tonina, these will grow and get large in a couple of weeks or so. 
The pantanal will also be topped and sprout new stems etc.
And the Downoi will grow and send new side shoots. 
I'm undecided what to do with the Tonina lotus blossom, it's a very nice plant, but I really have no space for it here.
It is too similar to the normal Tonina to have anywhere near each other.

I suppose I could do a 1/2 row of a some lower red plant that would contrast well in the far corner, not many species fit that criteria unfortunately other than a dwarf red lily perhaps or something.


----------



## Centromochlus

I'm sure you answered this question already, but why so little substrate? 
Tank looks great, BTW. I think you did a really good job incorporating those Eriocaulon sp. into the scape (i guess it is possible after all?). :hihi:


----------



## plantbrain

AzFishKid said:


> I'm sure you answered this question already, but why so little substrate?
> Tank looks great, BTW. I think you did a really good job incorporating those Eriocaulon sp. into the scape (i guess it is possible after all?). :hihi:


The tank is not tall and I honestly do not like to see 2-4" of sediment in the front viewing pane, while many aquariums crop this out of the pictures you see in ADA pictures..........I cannot do that at home.........

The sediment is a bit higher and slopes higher front to back, so it's a little bit of an illusion, but not that much really. Plants grow out and into any area regardless of how deep the sediment is and I trim it back anyhow, so there's little need for deep sediment there.

It'll be another 2-4 weeks before the right side is the shape I'm after.
I've seen a few tanks with Erio's, but most are farms, not scapes.


----------



## plantbrain

Did a nice background whack tonight and moves some of the green species to The rear and pulls some other colors up front. This will give even more red color to the display and a bit more contrast.


----------



## plantbrain

New ideas and changes:

Once some of the plants for the rows grow out a bit more, I'll allow a wall of red in the first layer in the background plants, mostly R wallichii and macrandra. 

Right where the wood sort of divides the tank, right behind that. 

I need to pull the Hydrothrix back as it is rather weedy and it clashes with the similar Erio type 3(giant E. setaceum). I thought this would look good and it does at the first wall of weeds in the back section, but the tank is more about color, so a wall of red might be even more "flashy". the Hydrothrix can be in the back and still do quite well and form a thicket easily.

This will add much more red to the front of the tank and add a nice wild mauve color not present in the other red plants in the foreground rows. 
So it serves a couple of purposes in the color scheme and macrandra is a weed, so may as well put it.... to work.

The large Erio type 3 is doing well/much better this time. I am feeding the Fire shrimp a lot and the plant was much better acclimated this time, so the shrimp seemed to attack only wimpy plants, but not a healthy Erio setacem, I also have the normal type 1 Erio so it was NOT the shrimp, it was the health of the plant and feeding the shrimp well. It can be hard to tell if it was or was not the shrimp, feeding, or just the overall condition when the plants came in, or my own environmental changes perhaps. I cannot say, but these would be my guesses. So both of these types are now growing very well in the tank and are multiplying quickly. Ah why not blame the shrimp for my issues eh?? 

This is good news because I wanted a large showy fine needled plant like the Erio type 3. I need to find a hole for the Type 1 Erio now. Likely will have to scratch one off the list of plants in the tank. I likely will also do the same for the Tonina lotus blossom. Just cannot see anywhere to place them. 
Hydrothrix will do fine in the rear section, but the Erios are not as likely to do as well back there. Nor the Tonina lotus blossom.

I bought some so called mini Bolbitus. I think it survives underwater, but it does not grow much if at all. I placed it in an optimal spot, has hardly produced any growth in almost 2 months.

The Low grow Red Hygro is starting to creep along the sediment, and will fill in I guess in about 1-2 months very nicely in the L rear corner.
I placed the Nesaea crassiculius in the rear, it was stunted when I got it and some decent side shoots formed. Not sure if it's worth my efforts to coax it back or just toss it. It'd have to be one of those foreground row plants to look really nice. Those spots are pretty much filled.

I'll stick with some Ammannia gracilius for that spot in the rear.
The Mermaid weed looked okay, but it was not as bushy in feel and the Ammannia will add a nicer look IME.
So getting closer to the goal, and adding more color and keeping the contrast, working through which plant species works best in each spot relative to the other.

The other plant up for color consideration is the Nesaea pedicillata which I've not kept for about 10 years now, a nice yellow longer narrow leaf might find a home in the rear middle of the tank or behind the wood truck perhaps.

Worth a try.


----------



## !shadow!

macrandra is prob my fav red plant so far. Will like to see it grow out in this tank.


----------



## plantbrain

!shadow! said:


> macrandra is prob my fav red plant so far. Will like to see it grow out in this tank.


Well, it has a different shade of red/mauve that's different from the other red plants in the tank other than perhaps the wallichii, but that's got different texture, so the wall of a red in the mid/background should look pretty nice.

But, the idea was certainly never my intent from the start, it's just a moving target as things develop, I wonder if they could be adjusted and what they look like then, then I'll decide and change etc.

I've never seen walls of red used like that with contrast. I've seen larger domes of Rotala singapore uses in mass, but some questionable photoshop and the stem lower down are not as intense or as red as macrandra. Still, it'll make a different more bright look, almost gaudy.

But, gaudy is often something many like in this hobby when it comes to red plants. My goal is color and grouping contrast, so I'm pretty wide open and am not concerned with "rules", some contest or their aesthetic. 

My only rules are looks good, has lots of color, produces enough $ in sales of critters/plants to pay for the electric bill, does not drive me crazy, lets me explore different contrast.

Fairly basic stuff.


----------



## Geniusdudekiran

Mr. Barr, if you EVER decide to ship some of the PFRs please let me know... They just look so bright in your pictures!


----------



## plantbrain

Geniusdudekiran said:


> Mr. Barr, if you EVER decide to ship some of the PFRs please let me know... They just look so bright in your pictures!


Cull, Cull, Cull.

Those go to the 180 typically, I do not sell the best, NO ONE DOES.

Still, about 80-85% are the deep red fire, then 15% or so are shak's.

I likely WILL be selling the Tonina Lotus Blossom.

I filled in some trimmings from the R macrandra to make the wall, but it'll be a week or two before that fills in decently.

In the meantime, I have about 15+ Tonina reg shoots that will grow up to be nice and fill that row thickly.

The Erio type 3 I have about 12-15 stems now forming tops, so in about 3 weeks or so, I'll have a nice thick full row.

L pantanal is also branched out and I'll have a nice row in about 2-3 weeks or so.

I replanted the low grow red hygro, it looks pretty good now and will thicken up.

I'll post some new pics this weekend.

And some sales threads.


----------



## Geniusdudekiran

plantbrain said:


> Cull, Cull, Cull.
> 
> Those go to the 180 typically, I do not sell the best, NO ONE DOES.
> 
> Still, about 80-85% are the deep red fire, then 15% or so are shak's.


Still, your culls are better than most's best


----------



## inareverie85

Loved watching the evolution of this tank. 

It's beautiful!


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

so i looked back at the picture of ur sump. how is it more efficient at bio filtration if u have it sealed to prevent oxgen from entering? and half the media is submerged in water anyways

just curious as im serious about going sump on the 29 to hide heaters and pumps, and having more control on flow.. plus the supposed added benefits of better oxygenated water, and excellent filtration


----------



## plantbrain

Geniusdudekiran said:


> Still, your culls are better than most's best


Well, if you cull from the ones I do sell, then they are decent and you can start a decent line, but if you just toss them in a tank, in 3-5 generations, they will be like Cherries.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> so i looked back at the picture of ur sump. how is it more efficient at bio filtration if u have it sealed to prevent oxgen from entering? and half the media is submerged in water anyways
> 
> just curious as im serious about going sump on the 29 to hide heaters and pumps, and having more control on flow.. plus the supposed added benefits of better oxygenated water, and excellent filtration


O2 is still pulled into the Wet/dry chamber and if the water is less than the air for O2, the O2 will dissolve into the water. If it was say higher than the air, it would dissolve out, but reach an equilibrium and since the gas has nowhere else to go inside the chamber, CO2, O2 etc.........it'll just dissolve back into solution based on the partial pressures.

There's plenty of O2.

The unsealed designs are to facilitate CO2 dissipation. That's not our goal here.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

ohh... science.. 
that makes sense. thanks for clearing that up
we will all be surely anticipating ur sales threads


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> ohh... science..
> that makes sense. thanks for clearing that up
> we will all be surely anticipating ur sales threads


Better hurry, only some Tonina left.


----------



## plantbrain

did some hacking and moving:





























I'll end up with some thick groups in a couple of weeks, but things are moving along. I moved some R macrandra so it will grow into a red mauve wall, I'll fatten up the R wallichii in the corner. Removed a few stragglers: Nesaea crassiculius, Mermaid weed, Crypt parva. I might add the C. parva back, but perhaps on the other Right hand side. 

I moved the Tonina's on opposite sides of the tank so they do not clash. The stumps I have left after the sales will grow in pretty well in this location. They also look good against the Fissidens and I plan to keep them fairly short and make it a nice thick forest of stems, but not so tall, they distract or hide the fissidens or Erios behind them.

Some of the groups are a bit messy, but as they grow out and get another trim or two, these will even up nicely.

I'm very close to having the species and their locations finalized.
It has taken awhile and there's still some growing and trimming to do be done to fill the spots in better. I did finally get some Ammannia gracilius from a local so no matter what, I have the species set I want/need. The Ammannia will look awesome where I have it planned in the rear. A much better choice than the mermaid weed or the Nesaea. 

The only other plant, also the same local guy has it, is the N pedicillata, a nicer red/yellow color might lend well to some spots.

I also found a good holding spot for all those errant pieces of Fissidens moss that I keep finding everywhere: the tops of the driftwood that poke out, they can easily lay on that, get enough water, a ton of light and grows very well there. After 3-4 weeks, I'll pull them off and sell the moss. Simple, clean, easy and out of the way.


----------



## peyton

That tank is awe inspiring! The colors... just WOW.


----------



## plantbrain

I have some new T5 bulbs that I am about to try out, so I can get a variety of plant and reflective colors.

Adding the red in the front and the blue in the rear is a decent combo, with a purple in the middle and mostly whites. I'll see. That's the combo I have now, so the water looks blue in the deeper sections and reflects the reds better in the front.


----------



## sketch804

Do you do anything special for the R. macrandra? just wondering because yours looks good and I have heard so many conflicting info on it, I actually read a forum that was saying add Boron to it, to make it red up nicer, guess the guy figured out he had a boron deficiency..but either way Tom, that is a beautiful tank you have right there! I have been following it for a while, and it just keeps getting better and better!

Edit: haha nevermind the question, just seen my answer! love it..



plantbrain said:


> Ferts, good CO2 and light, there's no trickery here.
> 
> I've been saying this for 20 years.
> 
> I do not treat any plant "special", never have.
> They might be given more space or a sweet spot, but otherwise, not much.


----------



## plantbrain

sketch804 said:


> Do you do anything special for the R. macrandra? just wondering because yours looks good and I have heard so many conflicting info on it, I actually read a forum that was saying add Boron to it, to make it red up nicer, guess the guy figured out he had a boron deficiency..but either way Tom, that is a beautiful tank you have right there! I have been following it for a while, and it just keeps getting better and better!
> 
> Edit: haha nevermind the question, just seen my answer! love it..


Yep, do not listen to folks that tell you otherwise, they do not "KNOW".
I do not know either, maybe it does........but I have plenty of examples.....where I did NOT do anything special and still grew and sold more they most folks.

Proof is in the pudding.

Perhaps I could tweak something here or there, but I'm growing this tank and having little issue with what many folks call "the hardest plant species" and I'm scaping with them, selling them and you can see the time line and updates on them and the status.
I have little reason to improve as I have "complete control" over the hoirticulture here. The rest is time and work. Not fiddling with this or that nutrient. I've never found much support for those claims, and I've long stopped even bothering with them.
CO2 is about the only serious thing I address.


I honestly do not think it is hard, but the light/CO2/ferts are good. The tap here is also pretty good. I take care of the tank and move things around and keep it clean etc, but I do not spend hours and hours on it weekly, not by a long shot.

The R macrandra will look pretty good in about 3 weeks or so, I need another 1-2 trims and it'll have a nicer even color and back drop and some of the other plant groups will fill in better. Tonina sprouting of the side shoots takes longer, I'm likely 4-6 weeks out on those. 

I guess in a couple of months, I'll actually use my DSLR, flashes and tripod and do a photo shoot.


----------



## nonconductive

looks awesome tom!


----------



## plantbrain

nonconductive said:


> looks awesome tom!


Thanks, I have less and less things to try out, at least I often think I do..........only to think of something else..........and I have not even changed any of the hardscaping.


----------



## zergling

Awww you yanked out the glosso :tongue:

Any plans on that open un-planted area on the front, or are you planning to have a downoi/erio lawn?


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Awww you yanked out the glosso :tongue:
> 
> Any plans on that open un-planted area on the front, or are you planning to have a downoi/erio lawn?


Right now I put the C parva there. Still mulling it's long term placement for that spot, it can handle the Pennywort advancing and shading it.and it's easy, and not a fussy plant.

The other might be Pellia on a piece of wood.

Otherwise, I might just use the space as over flow the Downoi or incorporate that space into a Downoi planting area/region etc.

I saved a few more of the Tonina lotus blossom and will keep that growing on the other side. 

Main ideas I'm looking at for the next 2-4 weeks are adding perhaps some yellows, the P stellata with yellow tops and purple underneath and Nesaea pedicillata are two ideas.


----------



## green_valley

Very nice very nice. 

Wowwww...You know I just realized, there is no fish in this tank? Any specific reason Tom?


----------



## plantbrain

green_valley said:


> Very nice very nice.
> 
> Wowwww...You know I just realized, there is no fish in this tank? Any specific reason Tom?


40 NG Rainbows, 500 shrimp, maybe more..........3 gold nuggets, 1 G. elephas double truck elephant nose, 4 otto cats.

They come out sometimes, they will eat from hand at night. sort of funny, they beg, or they run and hide.


----------



## synaethetic

Beautiful tank Tom, you've got the green thumb. I find the majority of your posts on this forum extremely informative and helpful. 

I might of been seeing things, but I believe I read in another thread you don't dose any K2S04 in this tank . . could you mind going over your fert regimen? Do you get all the K you need from gH booster of some sort?


----------



## zergling

Tom, how about some angels? That might help you out with your shrimp infestation problem LOL!


----------



## nonconductive

apistos = seek & destroy


----------



## plantbrain

synaethetic said:


> Beautiful tank Tom, you've got the green thumb. I find the majority of your posts on this forum extremely informative and helpful.
> 
> I might of been seeing things, but I believe I read in another thread you don't dose any K2S04 in this tank . . could you mind going over your fert regimen? Do you get all the K you need from gH booster of some sort?


Gh booster is 50% K2SO4
Also, the % from KNO3 dosing would mean I'd have to really mess things up and over feed the fish where I'd need nearly 60-80ppm as NO3 from food alone.

Before.........I'd get even close to a K+ issue.


----------



## plantbrain

nonconductive said:


> apistos = seek & destroy


Nope, they are in the 180, plenty of shrimp there........and the population has grown a lot, Angels are bit too tall.


----------



## plantbrain

Could add altums to the 180, but not + the cardinals


----------



## plantbrain

A few good trims and grow out and the front rows will be up to snuff at least. I need to grow out the Ammannia more in the rear, but the R macrandra is coming along well, the older lower leaves are pretty pale, but a few trims later, they will be all red and make a nice mid wall in the back there. 

One trick is to allow the plants to grow up and hit the surface for about a week or so, then replant. I have not yet done this with this tank, but plan to later.

The Downoi is making a come back, all I had were trimmed off bottom stumps, so it's come a long long way and will fill in decently. 

Some of the other plants will grow in nicely and I've found using a turkey baster works well to clean the Erio cinreums' middle parts and keep those cleaner. 

I am pondering adding the Red serpae tetras to this tank and moving the Rainbows. The tetras will eat the smaller shrimp for sure though, which I thought the rainbows would, but..they have not yet.


----------



## lbacha

Tom

I'm not much of a stem guy I normally use ferns, moss, crypts and anubias in my tanks one question for you when you trim and replant do you discard the bottom of the stem and just plant the top or do you leave the bottom to sprout more stems or do you leave the bottom and just replant the top. If you do remove the bottoms do you discard them or grow them out for other tanks or to sell, I have some a. reinekii and H pinnatifida that I just trim the tops off and throw in a large tupperware container with 1" of topsoil in the bottom soked with water and some light over it and it grows like weeds in there. The bottoms I leave in the tank then they just form multiple new shoots from the top node and keep growing and getting thicker. I'm wondering if I would get better results if I replanted the tops in my tank and threw the bottoms in the tupperware container.

Thanks and great thread Len


----------



## Tenor1

Can macrandra and other red plants be grown in the hard tap water in Los Angeles? I use CO2 and a new high-PAR LED light system.

Thanks,


----------



## plantbrain

lbacha said:


> Tom
> 
> I'm not much of a stem guy I normally use ferns, moss, crypts and anubias in my tanks one question for you when you trim and replant do you discard the bottom of the stem and just plant the top or do you leave the bottom to sprout more stems or do you leave the bottom and just replant the top. If you do remove the bottoms do you discard them or grow them out for other tanks or to sell, I have some a. reinekii and H pinnatifida that I just trim the tops off and throw in a large tupperware container with 1" of topsoil in the bottom soked with water and some light over it and it grows like weeds in there. The bottoms I leave in the tank then they just form multiple new shoots from the top node and keep growing and getting thicker. I'm wondering if I would get better results if I replanted the tops in my tank and threw the bottoms in the tupperware container.
> 
> Thanks and great thread Len


Sort of depends, if I want to grow and fill in more tops and stems, I'll save the bottom parts and let them sprout. If all I want to do is have nice tops, then I toss them. 

For many species, you can simply pinch the tops and sell those.....then allow the bottom stumps to resprout and form dense bushy thickets.

You sort of test and see which has the best recovery and look for a given goal(maintenance or fill in growth).

Each species has it's own peculiar habit.

It's also a labor issue, it's easy to top the plants and let the bottom resprout. Many just trim like hedges for thick stands of stem plants.


----------



## plantbrain

Tenor1 said:


> Can macrandra and other red plants be grown in the hard tap water in Los Angeles? I use CO2 and a new high-PAR LED light system.
> 
> Thanks,


I've not had the best success with the harder tank, but I never can say for sure. Maybe it was something else etc........all it takes is for a few folks to do it in harder tap and .........

Seems much easier to me in softer lower KH's.


----------



## plantbrain

The macrandra is more a nice mauve color than the blood red like the Fire shrimp, I like this look and it does grow very fast, so it makes for a good plant to work larger groups. I do not think it's good for the rows really over time, but as a thick hedge or background weed.


----------



## jnaz

How are you keeping the shrimp out of the overflow? I have seen a few pictures that show the overflow but you can't really tell what mods if any have been made to it. Can we get a clear picture of the overflow?


----------



## plantbrain

jnaz said:


> How are you keeping the shrimp out of the overflow? I have seen a few pictures that show the overflow but you can't really tell what mods if any have been made to it. Can we get a clear picture of the overflow?


They get caught at the sponge, so I cull whatever wander in and then toss the good ones into a tank in the garage for sale.

You can use a simple stainless steel mesh used for moss, and cut to fit a U shape screen around the overflow. This works for all but the smallest shrimp.


----------



## plantbrain

I'm going to be gone for about 10 days so this tank will get a good trim prior and then I hope looks pretty when I get back.

The Red mac has grown out good, but I'll whack it Sat.
I will need ot trim a few other things, but after trimming and knowing how each species behaves, I can effectively time the growth so it's not too overgrown.

Since the tank and plants are well fertilized, I'll see the response to limiting the ferts.

It's only a week. But this tank chugs through 45ppm of NO3 and then copious fish/shrimp food.

It'll be stressed for sure when I return.


----------



## sketch804

GOOD LUCK on all that then! Hope it stays looking beautiful! this tank is one that I love to look at the progress, but I bet it is even better sitting right in front of it HAHA!


----------



## plantbrain

sketch804 said:


> GOOD LUCK on all that then! Hope it stays looking beautiful! this tank is one that I love to look at the progress, but I bet it is even better sitting right in front of it HAHA!


A friend commented from the photo of the FTS that it looked better with the green wall in the mid ground, but the Red mac will make a nicer look I think in person.

I have already tried the green wall of Hydrothrix, I suppose I can try a few other species and experiment with what looks best.

Since the Hydrothrix is now BEHIND the red macrandra, you do not see it.........yet, a few good trims and timing it right, you will see the green red laying even more.


----------



## plantbrain

Did a real nice big hack today, I love this because it means I do not need to do much for awhile and the other plants get plenty of light, CO2 and the tank's flow patterns are nice.

I'll get a pic up perhaps Sat evening.

The C parva is likely going to be removed finally.
I'll allow the Downoi to trace over that direction like the Rios do.

I plan on keeping the L peruensis lower and use a combo of topping and uprooting/shortening other stems. I also do this now with the Ludwigia "red" as well.

I'd tried the Hydrothrix in a pretty low light region that was blocked by the main wood and it stared to rot a little, so I pulled that and like will return the Myrio matogrossense and allow the Bolbitus to fill out around the bottom base. The elephant nose double trunk loves that spot to hide during the day. 

So now it's a wait and watch the weeds grow for awhile game.
As they fill in, I'll fatten up some groups and just maintain others......
Each trim is one step closer and better to the goal. Even the goal is rather open ended and experimental, which is nice for a change.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## dantra

Tom this tank looks insane (in a good way). The diversity of plants, colors and the placement is awesome. I know you are still rearranging plants but from where I sit, I can't see where you can improve much or at all.

I really hope I get my tank up and running before you start listing the clippings in the SNS. You got me rethinking the scape I was originally going with. Anyway the tank look great.

Dan


----------



## plantbrain

dantra said:


> Tom this tank looks insane (in a good way). The diversity of plants, colors and the placement is awesome. I know you are still rearranging plants but from where I sit, I can't see where you can improve much or at all.
> 
> I really hope I get my tank up and running before you start listing the clippings in the SNS. You got me rethinking the scape I was originally going with. Anyway the tank look great.
> 
> Dan


That's the interesting thing with this tank, I can see really far ahead with the placement and colors and I'm okay with changes and tweaking it. If I find a new plant I really like that fits well, I can try it out easily. Not just 1-2 stems or a small group, but a decent scape spot.I've learned a lot about contrast and color, while I had a lot of past experience, this really took it to another level. And it continues to teach me as it evolves, so do I. 

The Tonina lotus blossom has started to fatten up, it was in weak shape when I got it but is now growing pretty good. The UG will be grown in pretty good in about 3-4 weeks more like the past rug I had there. Main plant to grow out at this point is some Ammannia gracilius. Then fatten up and trim the Erio type 3, L pantanal, Toninas(both species). Downoi will fill in more and is growing pretty good again after the stumps that were trimmed off the sold plants. I'll keep the nicer crowns and sell the side shoots/stumps next time.

I just need to get things a bit more ordered and trimmed a few more times so it will look nice and tidy.


----------



## audioaficionado

How much light on the Downoi are you giving them?


----------



## dantra

That's what I'm talking about. You have to know how the plant grows, how tall, how fast, how quickly they recover, basically one has to know the temperament of the plant in use and your experience undoubtedly shows. I'm sure you know when to trim a particular plant and how low or high to trim so that it doesn't lag behind the others.

Looking at the photo the only two plants I can identify is Utricularia graminifolia and Pogostemon helferi. Your tank makes me/inspires me to familiarize myself with a lot more different species of plants so at the very least, I can identify them. I guess thats just me being lazy.

In my tank I was thinking about going with Needle narrow leaf java fern, Java fern trident, Windelov, Bolbitis Heudelotii, Anubias Coffeefolia, Anubias barteri var. nana 'petite', several kinds of crypts and some moss. Maybe a few other plants here and there but after I saw your tank it's making me re-think my plant selection. It seems rather boring compared to your plant selection. I'm not comparing tanks mind you, I'm just comparing the stark difference in color and selection of plants chosen.

If you see a cube dutch scape attempt just know it's all your fault.

Dan


----------



## Hyzer

I miss the glosso triangle unfortunately. Nonetheless, I do understand why you gave it the boot.

Awesome colors though. Thanks for keeping this tank updated.


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> How much light on the Downoi are you giving them?


Lower than most everything else.


----------



## plantbrain

dantra said:


> That's what I'm talking about. You have to know how the plant grows, how tall, how fast, how quickly they recover, basically one has to know the temperament of the plant in use and your experience undoubtedly shows. I'm sure you know when to trim a particular plant and how low or high to trim so that it doesn't lag behind the others.
> 
> Looking at the photo the only two plants I can identify is Utricularia graminifolia and Pogostemon helferi. Your tank makes me/inspires me to familiarize myself with a lot more different species of plants so at the very least, I can identify them. I guess thats just me being lazy.
> 
> In my tank I was thinking about going with Needle narrow leaf java fern, Java fern trident, Windelov, Bolbitis Heudelotii, Anubias Coffeefolia, Anubias barteri var. nana 'petite', several kinds of crypts and some moss. Maybe a few other plants here and there but after I saw your tank it's making me re-think my plant selection. It seems rather boring compared to your plant selection. I'm not comparing tanks mind you, I'm just comparing the stark difference in color and selection of plants chosen.
> 
> If you see a cube dutch scape attempt just know it's all your fault.
> 
> Dan


I think that plant selection you have is a WISE choice. :thumbsup:
These might not be.

More work and fussiness.


----------



## plantbrain

Hyzer said:


> I miss the glosso triangle unfortunately. Nonetheless, I do understand why you gave it the boot.
> 
> Awesome colors though. Thanks for keeping this tank updated.


Gloss just evolved from a few I had growing out in the Bonsai trees as a carpet, it was never suppose to be a permanent spot.


----------



## plantbrain

I did a Tonina lotus blossom count before I left Sunday.
34 tops, some are tiny and small, but they should be a fair amount larger.
It'll be a different type of grouping than a row though.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

i see you have your sump pplumbed with vinyl tubing, barb fittings, and a 90 elbow.

my sump is here and i was running some closed loop test with it under my stand
pump just filling up back chamber CPR said to use 1 inch pipe but it doesn't full sipohn which i didn't think it would. overflow is rated for 300gph 1inch can do significaly more

so i squeeze the tube and it ges quite and makes a full siphon

questions bascially then lead to what did u do to achieve less noise (toilet bowl effect)
and what size tubing is that
im almost thinking 1/2in I.D. will be close to 300 gph at full siphon ur input is appreciated

or does a full siphon negatively impact the oxygen increasing capabilities of a sump?


----------



## BlueJack

Stunning! I can't take my eyes off the Erio cinereum. 

I never knew how much plant textures and shapes can impact a scape until I saw this tank. Don't get me wrong, the color contrast is fantastic, but I'm blown away by how well the different looking species compliment each other!


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i see you have your sump pplumbed with vinyl tubing, barb fittings, and a 90 elbow.
> 
> my sump is here and i was running some closed loop test with it under my stand
> pump just filling up back chamber CPR said to use 1 inch pipe but it doesn't full sipohn which i didn't think it would. overflow is rated for 300gph 1inch can do significaly more
> 
> so i squeeze the tube and it ges quite and makes a full siphon
> 
> questions bascially then lead to what did u do to achieve less noise (toilet bowl effect)
> and what size tubing is that
> im almost thinking 1/2in I.D. will be close to 300 gph at full siphon ur input is appreciated
> 
> or does a full siphon negatively impact the oxygen increasing capabilities of a sump?


Ball valves do a fine job.
I never use a full siphon.
The larger the tubing, and sump volume, the less gurgle I get.


----------



## plantbrain

BlueJack said:


> Stunning! I can't take my eyes off the Erio cinereum.
> 
> I never knew how much plant textures and shapes can impact a scape until I saw this tank. Don't get me wrong, the color contrast is fantastic, but I'm blown away by how well the different looking species compliment each other!


In this respect, it is a dutch type of scape, but not too much else.


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


>


 
Sorry I just had to bump this back to the top for everyone to see. This is just breathtaking to look at!


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> The C parva is likely going to be removed finally.


Let me know if you do. I'll pick some up from you.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Let me know if you do. I'll pick some up from you.


I donated it to GSAS non profit club for their auction.

I'll be back Feb 14th, so if you want to see the tank in person, let me know.


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> How much light on the Downoi are you giving them?


They are getting about 60 umol averaged over 8 hours. But.........this goes from 4-5umol up to 120umol.


----------



## audioaficionado

plantbrain said:


> They are getting about 60 umol averaged over 8 hours. But.........this goes from 4-5umol up to 120umol.


Thanx. On my next attempt with these plants, I'll have more area than a 12" wide tank affords so they won't get much shade from near by taller plants. Think I'll also have some AS new substrate too. Gravel and shade did 'em in even with EI ferts.


----------



## zachary908

The tank is looking great, Tom.



audioaficionado said:


> Thanx. On my next attempt with these plants, I'll have more area than a 12" wide tank affords so they won't get much shade from near by taller plants. Think I'll also have some AS new substrate too. Gravel and shade did 'em in even with EI ferts.


I don't think gravel was your issue.. I grow great downoi in just plain old Eco-Complete.

However, AS can't hurt anything! :biggrin: Good luck.


----------



## audioaficionado

My gravel had lots of mulm and I was doing EI water column ferts with a high light tank, but they just slowly melted away on both occasions I tried them.


----------



## plantbrain

I also agree gravel type has less to do with it.

Light/CO2.......are more at play, it will grow down to 30-40umol, but does better IME a little higher 60-80umol seems good.


----------



## sketch804

What kinda of erio's are in the front of your tank near the driftwood? Just wondering, they look great and I am trying to find some new nice plants but I don't what they are called..Erio type II maybe? Thanks..If I spelled it wrong or said the wrong SP. forgive me, this is just off the top of my head..Thanx! and BTW, that tank is looking awesome! seems like it is getting nice and clear now!


----------



## plantbrain

sketch804 said:


> What kinda of erio's are in the front of your tank near the driftwood? Just wondering, they look great and I am trying to find some new nice plants but I don't what they are called..Erio type II maybe? Thanks..If I spelled it wrong or said the wrong SP. forgive me, this is just off the top of my head..Thanx! and BTW, that tank is looking awesome! seems like it is getting nice and clear now!


Just took a pic before, rather than after the work was done.
When you move and mess with ADA AS it pulls up the fines and leaves a slight haze to the water.


Erio cinereum, nothing special.


----------



## sketch804

plantbrain said:


> Just took a pic before, rather than after the work was done.
> When you move and mess with ADA AS it pulls up the fines and leaves a slight haze to the water.
> 
> 
> Erio cinereum, nothing special.


Ya well i do understand that one! Takes a whole lot longer to clear up 120gal tank as opposed to my 40gal tank...just one thing i noticed and have noticed with a lot of huge tanks like yours is that they seem to more times than others have slightly hazy water. and i guess that is due to the simple fact of what you stated and it takes a lot longer for stuff to settle or get filtered out..but regardless of all that i still think that you have one of the nicest tanks i have seen in a while! I always look foward to seeing a new tank shot or up close shot of your tank! Its inspirational to me and gives me something to look foward to. 
Ha, Erio cinereum, i dunno, IMO that is a pretty nice plant and in my eyes is something special because i rarely see anyone selling erio's, just speedie every once in a while. If you ever decide to sell some i would love a chance to get it. Or do you happen to know a place/person that sells it??? Thanks so much Tom!


----------



## keithy

This tank is absolutely stunning! 




plantbrain said:


>


----------



## plantbrain

I'll take some new pics this Monday or so.


----------



## plantbrain

Well got back late but the tank has grown almost 2x for many species after leaving........

I'll do a before/after shot, it'll be instructive.


----------



## plantbrain

Before I left for a week, the tank looked like this:

















Well, had about 6-8" growth of many of the species after 1 week away.










45 min later after trimming:


















Some of the Erios did not like less ferts this week and decided to flower.............supposedly the kiss of death for them.

FTS prior to trim:









Low grow red hygro is doing nice in the corner under low light.









Erio type 3 took off since I hacked everything else back good. Even have extra to sell.










I have not trimmed this plant yet, might wait another 3-4 days. This is after I trimmed everything else, then said furrrgetit, doing a water change(so the water is hazy here):










Took pics, then did a trim, took more pics, then a water change, then took pics again.


----------



## freph

I appreciate you making me get out of bed to view these in full size. :hihi: Small iPhone version of the forums didn't do them justice. The clarity in the pre-trim photos is spectacular. Without the water line/reflections/tank edges I wouldn't be able to tell if it was above or below water. The red ludwigia especially pops. I really like that hygro as well. What's the exact name and does it stay low naturally or do you have to hack it back rather frequently?


----------



## orchidman

amazing growth!


----------



## jkan0228

Wow! How do you manage to find the balance between light, co2 and ferts?(You've probably answered this plenty of times)


----------



## plantbrain

freph said:


> I appreciate you making me get out of bed to view these in full size. :hihi: Small iPhone version of the forums didn't do them justice. The clarity in the pre-trim photos is spectacular. Without the water line/reflections/tank edges I wouldn't be able to tell if it was above or below water. The red ludwigia especially pops. I really like that hygro as well. What's the exact name and does it stay low naturally or do you have to hack it back rather frequently?


Hygro "araguaia".

It stays pretty low and is quite a nice plant, not for everyone or for some spots, but it's well behaved.

Gets 2 green thumbs up.

I have not left for a week and seeing the rates of growth between then and now is dramatic. I did a big hack before I left to allow for grow out. But I did not expect this much grow out.

Note the Tonina lotus blossom growth after 1 week, it was nice seeing that much growth out of that plant, the downoi also flourished, the Red ludwigia always grows like a weed, nothing new there. The Erio type 3 took off nicely and I finally trimmed it and even have few extra for sale. 

Red R. macrandra grew like mad. I opted to trim this in a few more days, too much trimming all at once is bad.

I guess due to the low nutrients.........the Erio cinerums started to flower.........this is suppose to be the kiss of death for them and they are suppose to die after flowering according to rumor, not sure, never had issues before. I removed the flowering tips just in case.

You can also see how the water clarity differs if you do not trim for a few days also.


----------



## doncityz

I really like this shot, particularly how the water ripples on the surface and also let me say this tank has awesome growth, scaping, choice of plants, and everything else. Will there be any fish in there? I don't see any.


----------



## thefisherman

hey Tom quick question... how do deal with ur erio type 3's? do you hack the bottoms and replant the tops? or do you treat them like rotalas and just keep hacking the tops off so they split into little offshoots?


- thefisherman


----------



## dewalltheway

Just amazing! The colors are gorgeous, the tank is so clean and everything is picture perfect. Your Erios are beautiful and the reds just pop! What do you do to get your reds to do that???


----------



## plantbrain

thefisherman said:


> hey Tom quick question... how do deal with ur erio type 3's? do you hack the bottoms and replant the tops? or do you treat them like rotalas and just keep hacking the tops off so they split into little offshoots?
> 
> 
> - thefisherman


I have tried both methods, they both work, but if you want nothing but nice tops for a display, then the tops are all you will want to replant. These do not seem to like to be moved or topped a lot...........so I only do it if the group gets too much out of hand.

Scaping versus merely growing plants are two very different goals.
It is not an easy plant to scape with.


----------



## plantbrain

dewalltheway said:


> Just amazing! The colors are gorgeous, the tank is so clean and everything is picture perfect. Your Erios are beautiful and the reds just pop! What do you do to get your reds to do that???


Just add light/CO2/Ferts and keep up on things. Nothing special other than focus on plant growth in general.


----------



## gnod

wow, your tank is so beautiful.


----------



## jgb77

Very nice scape. I really like the before/after pictures as it shows the different sp. growth rates and which can be more weedy than others. It can help people trying to decide which plants are a better fit for their tank and or goals for a particular scape.
Thanks for sharing this great looking tank.
John


----------



## plantbrain

This is 1 day after the trim and water change. Folks keep picking on me about the hazy water
























I will trim the Red wall of macrandra tonight. If I trim too much stuff all at once, I cannot see and feel the roots/stumps etc to trim them correctly.


----------



## Dempsey

Amazing as always! I really have to upgrade to aqua soil.... It just looks so much cleaner then EC.

So this past week has shown us that you can grow plants fast and still have them keep good colors.

You are a grower AND a shower!:hihi:


----------



## freph

plantbrain said:


> This is 1 day after the trim and water change. Folks keep picking on me about the hazy water


What exactly causes the hazy water post-trim unless you're relocating things/disturbing the soil? Is it just the decreased plant mass or what causes it?


----------



## sketch804

plantbrain said:


> This is 1 day after the trim and water change. Folks keep picking on me about the hazy water


Hey screw it! Can most people grow plants as well and as beautifully as done in this tank or others you have?? NOPE, so they don't have any ground to really stand on. everyone is just such a prefectionist but its all a work in progress regardless of what tank you, I or whoever is working on..with plants it is forever changing environment and that's the great thing about it! So I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just keep up the GREAT work we all love to look at and give us inspiration, and all will be fine! You have one of the best looking tanks around and almost no one can say you don't, except my stupid friend who _always_ can find something wrong with all tanks. Like he said that the 1600Gal tank you did for a client didn't have enough depth to it because it went from foreground to BG stems, and I told him are you KIDDING me. He can swim in a tank and that's not enough depth for you? okay..right. so all and all, haters gonna hate..








<- suppose to be moving with dude sitting on it while it goes down the track. Oh well..

But regardless I can't believe the amount of growth your tank puts off! It's incredible! Do you trim it like every few days or is this a weekly thing done with water changes?? Can't wait to see more, and good luck with the Erio's!


----------



## adriano

This is quite stunning. Well done.


----------



## plantbrain

freph said:


> What exactly causes the hazy water post-trim unless you're relocating things/disturbing the soil? Is it just the decreased plant mass or what causes it?


I uproot and the soil is like dust, I'm careful etc, but there is no avoiding the haze after a trim unless I topped 100%. I do not like leaving the old stumps for some species in the soil either.

It's gone a day or two later.

But I tend to take pics right before/after I work on the tank, that's the point of the this tank and to help folks see what and how to do some of these methods.


----------



## plantbrain

Dempsey said:


> Amazing as always! I really have to upgrade to aqua soil.... It just looks so much cleaner then EC.
> 
> So this past week has shown us that you can grow plants fast and still have them keep good colors.
> 
> You are a grower AND a shower!:hihi:


ADA AS is not cleaner, it's messy stuff compared to EC big time.
You have to be much more careful and the dust fines are much longer lasting and linger in the water. But it's worth the trade off, and you just wait a few days and it's gone.

EC is likely better for folks overall/in general that like to uproot and move plants around. 

I do it with ADA AS, but I've done this a long time, so maybe it's me........and I do large water changes after typically. Many do not want to do/deal with that.

I'm in the process of fattening up some species still, so I'll keep the stumps and some species I'll toss the stumps and only pick and chose the nicer tops and only replant those and wait till they fatten up more etc. I've had people want to buy entire rows, I am reluctant, but they offered a lot of $:hihi: 

Well, time to add the Pellia and trim the R macrandra.


----------



## plantbrain

Did the deed, the red is not very overpowering now. Have a couple of spots to trim down some, but that will be more detailed than this latest trim. 

If things get out of hand, I trim different, then the follow up trims I'll work more on the details.

Some groups blocks the view of the other plants and this loses the contrast.
Only with good height manged trimming will it look proper.

That will be next.


----------



## bigd603

beautiful driftwood! Where did you get it?


----------



## plantbrain

bigd603 said:


> beautiful driftwood! Where did you get it?


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/s...fs-gnarled-manzanita-driftwood-batch-9-a.html


----------



## Booger

freph said:


> What exactly causes the hazy water post-trim unless you're relocating things/disturbing the soil? Is it just the decreased plant mass or what causes it?


If that tank were 18" wide, it would look crystal clear 99% of the time. Looking through 3-4 feet of water magnifies anything floating around in the water column to a far greater extent than most realize.

I've found that running a ton of flow and staying out of the substrate (or use something like EC instead) helps, but intermittent use of a diatom filter was the most effective way in which I was able to quickly produce that clear as air look on a tank 36"+ wide. Too bad diatom filters are so worthless in just about every other regard.


----------



## plantbrain

The other option is to run a 9 and 3/4" house filter and get the 1 micron to 5 micron with Activated carbon etc.........at night the day after, but the tank is pretty crystal clear now after the post water change. A HOT magnum also with the Diatom is okay I suppose. They would clog much faster than the 1-5 micron type cartridges. The other thing is to use a bag filter for the return water or add a pressure type filter below in the sump etc........

Those clog fast and stink to clean, the house water filter with a good powerhead pump would work fairly well.


----------



## akpoly

plantbrain said:


> This is 1 day after the trim and water change. Folks keep picking on me about the hazy water
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will trim the Red wall of macrandra tonight. If I trim too much stuff all at once, I cannot see and feel the roots/stumps etc to trim them correctly.


that is amazing growth!


----------



## freph

What's that plant in the front right? Looks lovely and I can't put my finger on what it might be...

Edit: Nevermind. Think I found it....Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides? If so I'd love to buy some if you're still selling.


----------



## Jasonchen

Amazing!!!!!!!! Love it !!Hope I can afford a tank like this one!


----------



## plantbrain

freph said:


> What's that plant in the front right? Looks lovely and I can't put my finger on what it might be...
> 
> Edit: Nevermind. Think I found it....Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides? If so I'd love to buy some if you're still selling.


Yes, PM me your post address.


----------



## audioaficionado

plantbrain said:


> Folks keep picking on me about the hazy water


Looks pretty dang good from my house. Gotta look amazing in person. I'm wanting a much deeper tank too and I won't expect the water to look like air.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, the lighting is also at play here, since the width of the light is only 18" but the tank is 30", so the rear comes out poor illuminated or the front does.........or the middle........unless I used a flash etc, it's hard to capture the tank's look.

I added a log wrapped in Pellia/Monoselium or whatever. It has a nice contrast in the front next to wider/large or grass like bright green leaves.

Might sell it or keep it.

Still waiting for the Ammannia gracilus to grow out, I only got 1 stem and it was stunted so I cut it into 3 pieces and there is new growth after 2 weeks, not bad recovery rates. I should get more of the plant from a fellow hobbyist shortly.

I may get some Nesaea pedicillata for the Left rear also. I have a few changes in placement to think about and try in the mid and rear sections. 
I also might re establish the downoi in its own row again., but then I have to figure out what to do with the Tonina. I might keep the smaller Tonina lotus blossom and get rid of the Tonina normal.

*Lots of choices and decisions to make, far more than you'd initially predict! 
*


----------



## freph

PM sent. Lovely little plant. 

The Ammannia looks great from what I can see on other sites...will definitely love to see it once it's got a larger presence in the tank. Erios showing any sign of decline since you trimmed the buds?


----------



## Retrogamer82

How you feeling about the UG these days Tom? Correct me if I am wrong but I think I read somewhere a while back in this thread that this is about the longest you had messed with it. Just curious because I have never owned it and have always been on the fence about it. I never seem to see anyone stick with it for any extended period of time.


----------



## plantbrain

UG is actually pretty easy over the long term.

I uproot and replant vs mowing, but both methods worked well for me. I have a lot more UG to sell if I uproot however.

So I get basically about 100$ every 3 months or so. 

If you do the math for the entire tank, with Fire shrimp etc, then it's about 200-300$ a month. So it pays for the energy and tank cost over the next 2-4 years and then some, and motivates me to tend and take care of the tank.
I do not get paid much for the labor.........but the tank pays for itself quite well.


----------



## audioaficionado

I was able to grow enough plants to completely pay for the hobby in a 30 gal tank with substrate ferts and two 36" T12 lamps over it for several years. When I moved from San Diego to Oregon I had enough store credit surplus to pay for a large Styrofoam fish shipping container and a battery operated air pump for the 800 mile trip plus a week of motel living until I could rent a place and set the tank back up.


----------



## jgb77

Hello Tom. Can you tell me what combo of T5 bulbs you are running in these latest few pictures please.
Thanks,
John


----------



## limeslide

This tank is amazing!  I love when you leave it to grow out a bit, it looks like a rainforest!


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> I was able to grow enough plants to completely pay for the hobby in a 30 gal tank with substrate ferts and two 36" T12 lamps over it for several years. When I moved from San Diego to Oregon I had enough store credit surplus to pay for a large Styrofoam fish shipping container and a battery operated air pump for the 800 mile trip plus a week of motel living until I could rent a place and set the tank back up.


That is a long drive.


----------



## plantbrain

jgb77 said:


> Hello Tom. Can you tell me what combo of T5 bulbs you are running in these latest few pictures please.
> Thanks,
> John


Humm........I think there's 2 GE starcoats, 1 ATI purple, 2 ATI Blue specials, 2 Wavepoint Red, and then maybe an Aqua flora. 

I have a bunch of other bulbs sitting in the garage, so I have not tried a lot of the combos, but this gives me a nice color, sort of blue in the rear and red in the front, white in middle, but I've mixed the positions around to make it more complex. 

I suppose I should try out a few more different bulb combos since I do have the bulbs.

Of note, the URI Redsun bulb is insanely red........the reflectance ,messes with me since it really stands out off the top of the water, but the color under the water is actually awesome I thought. I have another 6 different types of bulbs to try also that have not been opened.


----------



## plantbrain

You can see the ATI fixture well in this shot. These things are simply awesome and pleasure to work with and adjust. Cost a lot, but cheap compared to ADA and nearly 2x the light for the same energy input.
The distance above the tank is 14", and the tank is 18"H x 30"D x 48"L. I turn the lights on for about 8 hours, but it's lower light for the first and last 2 hours and full blast in the middle. So total light is actually only 5-6 hours at the full power. 
The slow up and down dimming is subtle and nice........no jarring lighting on/off stuff.

Easy to use controller built in, one single cord to hide, manual or auto modes, 10 different light schemes for each channel. 40-50% more light than the Tek(same bulbs where used).

I'm sold. The best deal we have found were at Premium Aquatics for price and free shipping etc. They also had the best bulb shipping I've ever seen.


----------



## plantbrain

Made some changes, still gots more to do.




















Also, compare those stumps of Downoi in the last post compared to this one. 
About 2 weeks makes a big difference.


----------



## mountaindew

This is a fun display to follow!
I'm impressed you can get good c02 and flow coverage with so little plumbing in above picture.
Again very nice and great color,Tom.
mD


----------



## plantbrain

It'll be a few more weeks till I get things going well in the rear. Hopefully the different red placements I have in mind will look decent.

I may put the Red Pantanal in the rear by the main driftwood trunk and move the other plants over some.

The color just matches the Red macrandra bit too much for me.


----------



## 150EH

Your tank looks great and the color are fantastic too, and I like this shot where all the colors are caught in the reflectors.


----------



## bgallodoro24

Starting from left of above pic, 2nd and 3rd row of red plants, what are they?


----------



## The Gipper

Awesome dimensions on the tank the 30" width is great


----------



## plantbrain

bgallodoro24 said:


> Starting from left of above pic, 2nd and 3rd row of red plants, what are they?


Ludwigia "red"
Ludwigia verticillata type pantanal


----------



## Craigthor

Hey Tom, is that red Hygro also known as Hygro Araguia? Really like the looks of that may need to find some again once I move to the new tank.


----------



## zachary908

Craigthor said:


> Hey Tom, is that red Hygro also known as Hygro Araguia? Really like the looks of that may need to find some again once I move to the new tank.


I believe it is, Craig.


----------



## Craigthor

Damn, now I need to find some of that 2 had some a ways back but with the new tank it would look great in one spot.

Craig


----------



## plantbrain

Craigthor said:


> Hey Tom, is that red Hygro also known as Hygro Araguia? Really like the looks of that may need to find some again once I move to the new tank.


Yep, it's an awesome plant.

I really have not used it much except in corners like this. I have not seen anyone use it in a large dramatic way to date. I think it is worthy of that though!


----------



## plantbrain

Craigthor said:


> Damn, now I need to find some of that 2 had some a ways back but with the new tank it would look great in one spot.
> 
> Craig


It is in the darkest corner also, I've never really placed it out front and center, or made a long row of it, I wanted it for that purpose originally and then as a contrast against UG that would also tolerate the low light back there.

I'll do something neat with it in this tank someday, this tank moves and evolves rather fast with changes and different plant species.


----------



## plantbrain

I removed 7 of the Erio cinereums and moved them up front, then moved the Tonina lotus blossom to the rear with the Fissidens making a border between the two groups.
Looks much better.

This maximizes height aspect of each species and texture.
It also just "looks good/better".

I removed the D. Diandra and pulled more of the Bright green PENTHORUM SEDOIDES will make a nice side wrap and give some large leaf size to the contrast.
I've toyed with adding some Giant /hygro for it's nice large leaves.

I should get a pic up tonight.


----------



## crazydaz

You better get a pic up tonight, Tom. I'm guessing that there will also be a ton of people asking why your water is so hazy as well.  

I don't know, man....the tank seemed pretty perfect to me......I'm interested in seeing what "looks good/better" to someone like you really means.


----------



## plantbrain

I uprooted all the rios and the Tonia Lotus blossom, all the other Tonina, all the pantanal, all the D diandra, some of the other groups also.

So I did a lot of work on the tank actually, so it's pretty clear less than 1 hour later. If someone think they can do all that and make it clear with ADA AS, I'd like to see them try:thumbsup:

I raised the Pellia up and it is on the Left side in front of the Ech augustifolia. "vesuvius". 
I need to figure out how to better manage the R macrandra or reduce the stand. I'll need to figure out a better location for the R wallichii I think. Hydrothrix grows well in the back but parts melt due to a lack of light after a lot of growth starts to block the light. 


The Erios on the right side and Tonina lotus blossom are much better now.
I think I've produced 3x more Tonina lotus blossom vs the normal type, which I've only managed to double over nearly 2x longer time.
So Tonina lotus blossom is a better plant for cultivation and sales. I have nearly 50 stems/shoots now. About 40 for the Pantanal.

I'm also thinking about doing something different with the Downoi and putting Elatine triandra like I had the Gloss before.
But I need a good home for the Downoi before I go that direction.


----------



## Craigthor

Looking great, now I need to find some Glandulosa once I move to the new tank, such a deep reddish/ purple.


----------



## plantbrain

I also thought about moving the L peruinesis to the rear and swaping places with the Hygro araguiana(the lower growing Red hygro in the corner L)

This would contrast well with the plants and not compete like the peruiensis does with the other maroon plant: Ludwigia "red".

I'm in no rush to do that, but it's not a bad idea either and would give the respect the red low grow Hygro deserves.


----------



## plantbrain

Craigthor said:


> Looking great, now I need to find some Glandulosa once I move to the new tank, such a deep reddish/ purple.


Any vendor can get it, they are easy to find.

Takes 2-3 weeks and it'll all be deep red like these. 2 months later and you'll be fine.


----------



## jkan0228

That's a very nice amount of fissidens! Wish I had the much. :hihi: 

When you trim, I'm guessing you take the wood out to keep it clean?


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> That's a very nice amount of fissidens! Wish I had the much. :hihi:
> 
> When you trim, I'm guessing you take the wood out to keep it clean?


Yes, I just re wrap with black cotton string, it rots in about 1 month and the filthy mossy weed is forever attached. I find bits of of it back under the stems and all over. I have a simple method to maxmizing those scraps though, I simply place those bits on the wood that's slightly emergent and the moss is able to pull water up and on to the wood nicely. This makes a nice little ring of moss over time and then you have a nice golfball or baseball wad in a month or two.


----------



## plantbrain

The next few pics should look pretty good, still wondering how to replant and place the Downoi though.

The Tonina lotus blossom should grow pretty well in this spot since it responds very well to high light. I'd really like a nice Red plant with a different shade than the Ludwigia peruniesis also. It is not a strong contrast really. 

Later, I'll focus more on creating stair way slopes from low to high in the background, I'm not really doing much of that yet, but it'll happen at some point. I fatten the groups up and see what works best where, then once that job is done, then you move on to slopes of plants.
With some stem plants, you can simply hedge cut them. But I'm doing a few different trim methods here and with the different species and rosette plants, this(hedge cutting) does not work well.


----------



## Chlorophile

Sorry if this has been asked before, I'm sure it has somewhere in this thread - I must have used poor search queries as well. 
What are you doing for filtration?
I'm assuming some kind of sealed sump but what is that overflow looking box thing and where is the return?

Thanks!

And the tank looks awesome - I love the look of these careful plantings, the dutch style is too much work for me but I would probably enjoy it more in a large tank.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Chlorophile said:


> Sorry if this has been asked before, I'm sure it has somewhere in this thread - I must have used poor search queries as well.
> What are you doing for filtration?
> I'm assuming some kind of sealed sump but what is that overflow looking box thing and where is the return?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> And the tank looks awesome - I love the look of these careful plantings, the dutch style is too much work for me but I would probably enjoy it more in a large tank.


it has been discussed before actually as i brought it up. read through the whole thread. its a novel for sure, but you will learn tons of information

he does seal his sump and i actually purchased my sump and overflow based off of this thread. couldn't be happier. the looks of it sold it and the benefits didn't hurt either

its made by CPR aquatics.. great stuff his return is on the other side of overflow. its clear pvc.. expensive stuff for sure.





TOM! the evolution is clear and well done!! murky water? hardly.. looks clean to me. try uprooting a 10 gallon DIRT tank.. SHEESH talk about murk.

besides ur plants would look like crap if the water quality was that bad at least i hope they would.. cause if u have pitiful water quality and still grow plants like that.. u know longer have a green thumb. u have a magically thumb everyone so seems to claim u have. ( i used to, until i learned sensei)


----------



## plantbrain

Some folks were commenting on another forum not in the USA that it looked artificial, which is true.


But the goal of the Dutch style is not nature, it is about nice contrast, think large groupings of plants, tier towards the rear, nice clear lines between the groups, some degree of order, minimal hardscaping. Nature style places much more emphasis on the hardscape. There is more overlap and sublime feel. 

Still, regarding horticulture, the Dutch style is more difficult. 
It is all about the plants. Fairly aggressive trimming, producing nice large groups etc and color and contrast.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> u have a magically thumb everyone so seems to claim u have. ( i used to, until i learned sensei)


No, there is no magic, I've freely told folks what I do, many think there is some trick, but there is not. An old saying: Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.


----------



## zergling

plantbrain said:


> Some folks were commenting on another forum not in the USA that it looked artificial, which is true.
> 
> 
> But the goal of the Dutch style is not nature, it is about nice contrast, think large groupings of plants, tier towards the rear, nice clear lines between the groups, some degree of order, minimal hardscaping. Nature style places much more emphasis on the hardscape. There is more overlap and sublime feel.


Contrasting clumps of plants/trees also occur in nature (I'm sure you've seen this too). I know I see this in the spring time right where I live -- as there's a nice hill area right beside us where trees and animals aren't touched AFAIK.

I'm guessing the "artificial" comments are probably more rooted ( :tounge: ) on your scape (seemingly?) being very different from Nature Aquarium style.

......then again, I know very little about aquascaping haha!


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Contrasting clumps of plants/trees also occur in nature (I'm sure you've seen this too). I know I see this in the spring time right where I live -- as there's a nice hill area right beside us where trees and animals aren't touched AFAIK.
> 
> I'm guessing the "artificial" comments are probably more rooted ( :tounge: ) on your scape (seemingly?) being very different from Nature Aquarium style.
> 
> ......then again, I know very little about aquascaping haha!


Not this many species or grouping in any natural aquatic system I've ever seen, maybe 1-2, but rarely ever more than this no#.

Dutch style has long done this, I just added more reds and every other one, Red/green/red /green etc.......We have a lot more plant species avail these days than many of the older Dutch classic scapes. So that might be one reason it looks different and I chose some rather eclectic species that are newer etc, not classic Dutch style plants.


----------



## audioaficionado

Looks like you have ATI 48" 8x54W Dimmable SunPower T5 High-Output Fixture w/ Controller 
as it has 8 lamps and that same blue rectangle near the corner.

Who did you get it through?

Very nice unit and totally worth the investment for a rimless tank of this caliber.


----------



## plantbrain

Premium Aquatics has the best service and price for such a hood.

Not for the faith of heart or the inexperienced, if you cannot master lower light, and cannot do it consistently, you run a high risk of getting algae plagues.

You can dial the % light down however to say 25% or 33% etc for max lighting, or just run higher light for say 1 hour. I only run it at 0-50% for the 1st and last 2 hours, then crank in the middle at 100%.


----------



## S&KGray

HD Blazingwolf said:


> its made by CPR aquatics


Hi Tom,

Do you think a DIY PVC overflow can work just as well?


----------



## audioaficionado

If I ever get a nice deep dimensioned tank or large custom rimless, I'm in for one. That photo of yours shows how focused those reflectors really are. All you see is the tanks surface reflections reflecting out. No light spillage from the tubes. Light spillage into the room is a huge issue for a prominent display tank. I particularly don't care for those cabinet canopies on top of a tank. For a tank as lovely as yours, all you want to look at are hard-scape, plants and critters. Isn't that the whole point of a rimless tank?


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, you could use a DIY PVC, bit ugly, but the same idea, there are a few others that mimic the Mame overflow(or the DIY version was mimic by Mame's design basically).


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> If I ever get a nice deep dimensioned tank or large custom rimless, I'm in for one. That photo of yours shows how focused those reflectors really are. All you see is the tanks surface reflections reflecting out. No light spillage from the tubes. Light spillage into the room is a huge issue for a prominent display tank. I particularly don't care for those cabinet canopies on top of a tank. For a tank as lovely as yours, all you want to look at are hard-scape, plants and critters. Isn't that the whole point of a rimless tank?


My desire for open tank tanks is much more practical: access to trim and garden the aquarium. No hood to remove, no big bulky furniture in the home, the tank is already large enough, the 5th viewing pane instead of the typical 4, seeing how the light hits the plants etc.

Bad trade offs: Fish jump out, noise a bit higher, light spill, evaporation from the tank and condensation in the house is higher.


----------



## plantbrain

Pulled the Ammannia and moved it to the front where the purple Ludwiga perunesis was. I moved the perunesis over to the far Right and between the Tonina and the Ech vesuvius, looks better, but will need to wait for the Ammannia to grow out for a few weeks till it's fattened up and adapted to the tank well.

Also planted the Bunecaphlandra's in the rear behind the main trunk of the driftwood. 

Made a couple of group size and shape changes in the rear and reduced the wall of red macandra but runinng it front to back rather than from side to side lengthwise.

I'll change some of the background groups to be more triangle and diagonal rows vs round/square like clumps. Tends to look better I think.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> No, there is no magic, I've freely told folks what I do, many think there is some trick, but there is not. An old saying: Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.


 
SORRY Should have come out like this

besides ur plants would look like crap if the water quality was that bad at least i hope they would.. cause if u have pitiful water quality and still grow plants like that.. u would "no" longer have a green thumb. u would have a magical thumb everyone so seems to claim u have. ( i used to make that claim, until i became learned.. sensei..)


----------



## thefisherman

i think plantbrain is a wizard.. a magical one 


- thefisherman


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> SORRY Should have come out like this
> 
> besides ur plants would look like crap if the water quality was that bad at least i hope they would.. cause if u have pitiful water quality and still grow plants like that.. u would "no" longer have a green thumb. u would have a magical thumb everyone so seems to claim u have. ( i used to make that claim, until i became learned.. sensei..)


Well, do feed the cO2 via the Return pump so the mist tends to make the water look cloudy in pictures, but in person this is not the case.

If I turn off the filter, the water looks crystal clear. But I have an aversion to turning off filters and taking all the equipment out of the aquarium for a picture only.


----------



## plantbrain

You can see the Buce's in the rear behind the wood, they are small now, but in a few months, they will look pretty nice. There are 8 different types.


----------



## jkan0228

Buns? Or buce?


----------



## plantbrain

Bucephalandra, there is a weird SA catfish that has a slightly similar genus name that I mangle.


----------



## Uptown193

Nice planting job. Yea I know you are an aggressive trimmer with those plants. Your results are from dedication and hard work, its not easy. 

Do you run your CO2 24/7?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

What happened to the glandulosa? It was purple in the last few shots. Bulb change?


----------



## thefisherman

plantbrain said:


> Well, do feed the cO2 via the Return pump so the mist tends to make the water look cloudy in pictures, but in person this is not the case.


hey tom, you diffuse inline? or do you use a reactor? i thought the filter (if fed from the return) can strip the co2 out of the water. perhaps i misread another's opinion on the matter


- thefisherman


----------



## jgb77

HD Blazingwolf said:


> What happened to the glandulosa? It was purple in the last few shots. Bulb change?


Not to answer for Tom, but he moved the Glandulosa to the far right and the plant there now is Ammania I believe. You can see the Glandulosa in the right front area.
John


----------



## plantbrain

Uptown193 said:


> Nice planting job. Yea I know you are an aggressive trimmer with those plants. Your results are from dedication and hard work, its not easy.
> 
> Do you run your CO2 24/7?


Never, only when the lights come on and then the CO2 goes off 1/2 or a little more before the lights are 100% off.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> What happened to the glandulosa? It was purple in the last few shots. Bulb change?


Likely due to using 2 bulbs, a white and pink in a couple of the pics. The other pics have all 8 which are different color temps and give better and wider illumination.


----------



## plantbrain

thefisherman said:


> hey tom, you diffuse inline? or do you use a reactor? i thought the filter (if fed from the return) can strip the co2 out of the water. perhaps i misread another's opinion on the matter
> 
> 
> - thefisherman


I feed the CO2 into the return pump, no modifications.


----------



## sketch804

8 different color temps! wow, what ranges do you use? or just link me to the post someone if it has been said before, but I couldn't find it. thanks!


----------



## plantbrain

1 ATI purplse
2 ATI Blue specials
2 GE starcost
2 Red aquawave
1 Giesemann aqua flora

At least for now.


----------



## Chlorophile

plantbrain said:


> 1 ATI purplse
> 2 ATI Blue specials
> 2 GE starcost
> 2 Red aquawave
> 1 Giesemann aqua flora
> 
> At least for now.


This tank is the one with the dimmable ATI unit right?
Do you have all the bulbs slowly increase and then decrease or do you have some come when others are off?


----------



## plantbrain

Chlorophile said:


> This tank is the one with the dimmable ATI unit right?
> Do you have all the bulbs slowly increase and then decrease or do you have some come when others are off?


Yes, All the bulbs but the 1st channel comes on with 2 bulobs for 1st 1 hour, then ramps up to 100%. Then the 6 other bulbs come up and ramp up to 100 over 1 hour.

So 8 bulbs are only on for 6 hours total, and only at 100% for 4 hours.

I could do some weird things like use the URI Red Sun bulbs for the 1st channel to give the red morning sunrise/sunset effect. I'll see, last time it was too freaky looking due to the reflection off the water's surface. The light in the tank actually looks real nice though.


----------



## Centromochlus

Tom, the Ammannia looks really nice. I hope it was the kind that you wanted.

If not my LFS got in a much smaller Ammannia species which i believe might be A. gracilis.


----------



## plantbrain

This is from 2 days ago above , today I hacked the Red ludwigia, Erio type 3, Red pantanal, Tonina regular back and this looks much better.


----------



## jamesyu

plantbrain said:


> This is from 2 days ago above , today I hacked the Red ludwigia, Erio type 3, Red pantanal, Tonina regular back and this looks much better.


This is definitely a work of art!!


----------



## Chlorophile

plantbrain said:


> Yes, All the bulbs but the 1st channel comes on with 2 bulobs for 1st 1 hour, then ramps up to 100%. Then the 6 other bulbs come up and ramp up to 100 over 1 hour.
> 
> So 8 bulbs are only on for 6 hours total, and only at 100% for 4 hours.
> 
> I could do some weird things like use the URI Red Sun bulbs for the 1st channel to give the red morning sunrise/sunset effect. I'll see, last time it was too freaky looking due to the reflection off the water's surface. The light in the tank actually looks real nice though.


If I had that many bulbs and the ability to dim them up and down I would do crazy things...


----------



## plantbrain

Chlorophile said:


> If I had that many bulbs and the ability to dim them up and down I would do crazy things...


It does give you many options unlike LEDs and HQI MH's etc.........all in one nice fixture.


----------



## plantbrain

New Canon G12 camera:


----------



## crazydaz

this tank is ridiculous, Tom! Nice job! I'm looking forward to seeing how your buce's turn out over the coming months.


----------



## !shadow!

wow that last fts is awesome! keep em coming Tom


----------



## plantbrain

I'll be happier once the rows fatten up in no# of nice high grade tops, since finding these plants was a big enough chore in itself.

So once they fatten up nice and all the scraggy bottom parts can be culled, then it'll look decent.

This process takes longer than many think, and then there is the deciding and trying things in various places.......some things do not work well in some spots, while others thrive. Waiting on a new plant you just got to fatten up, or it came in stunted already etc, is also time consuming.

Perhaps you need say 50 stems for a spot, but only could find 5-6........

I plan on removing the Rainbows, but catching them has not been easy, late at night with the lights off, I turn them on full blast and get them while in shock still.


----------



## sketch804

WOW tank is looking GREAT as it always it...WHOW! that pic is WAY to saturated, hurts my eyes hehe  ..Your colors in your tank are beautiful though, I just hope to have something that balanced some time in the near future! Can't wait to see more!!


----------



## audioaficionado

plantbrain said:


> New Canon G12 camera:


How do you like its macro abilities?


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> How do you like its macro abilities?


Ain't tried yet. Might try some shrimp pics.


----------



## Rion

Hahahah, you flash-bang your fish to catch them. That cracks me up. Tank is looking good!


----------



## plantbrain

Rion said:


> Hahahah, you flash-bang your fish to catch them. That cracks me up. Tank is looking good!


There's still 20 or so left, so even with that, they are elusive to catch.


----------



## Algae Beater

As I said on BCA ... STUNNING! 

love this tank


----------



## plantbrain

Moving the Ludwigia peruensis back over to that Right side was wise.

I likely should make a row for the Downoi, but there are few locations.
I would have to move another green plant in order to do so. I like having the normal Tonina and it's bright green contrast well, but I have a nice little row on the Tonina lotus blossom now also. For this scape, the smaller lotus blossom is more suited if I had to give one up.
I can also sell the Downoi easier and it's less troble trimmign than the normal tonina which grows really fast, but the bottom portions do not do well since there is so many other plants around the lower stump leftovers.

If I did not have a scape, just a grow out tank, then this would be a great thing, but........that's not the case.

I've trimmed things down a fair amount in last scape, the back is opened up and I think I've found a good home for the Hydrothrix.
I sort of do not like Hydrothrix being next to the R wallichii and the Red Myrio though. All are fine needle plants, but very different color shades though.

After a few more trims, the L. pantanal will be looking nice and even/more ordered. 5-6 stems of the Ammnnia have straighten up and have no stunting, but others came in stunted, so I have to wait for new sprouted tips.
Some nice growth from the Ammannia and in a few weeks, that will provide some nice ordered red growth. I have never kept Ammannia shorter nor in light this intense. It should develop rich coloration.

I've been pondering buying a different larger wide leaf brighter green Erio to replace the Erio cineruems that have become quite large. I sold off 8 of them already.
I buy them smaller, then sell for 2-3x what I paid, but some rare more $$$ species might work better. Growth is so slow, they really do not make enough $ for the E cinerums.
Some of the others run 30-50$, the large cine's run maybe 15$.

But also, a nice E. "gioas", about Grapefruit size and 5-9 of them, would break things up. I likely will not mess with it just yet.


In other news, I should have my 180 Gallon's ATI lighting set up next week, or this week hopefully.


Still pondering species that are both rare and eclectic and if the more common, but tasteful species can be replaced. I love Rotala wallichii, but it's dirt cheap to buy, same with Rotala macrandra, Red milfoil but they are good in other ways.

I've tried these species as rows..........but they tended to have more ratty and less ordered looks to the row. They are fine for the mid and back ground groupings, but less so for the front rows.

I can plant them for a few days etc, and have then very ordered, ut this will not last long without a fair amount of trim labor. To me, this would seem "forced" and not good horticulture.


----------



## Nocturnal

Incredible tank!

Is there a map of what plants are where in this tank posted yet? There are a few species in here that I think I would love to get my hands on when I start planting. I'm new to plants, so I am unfamiliar with their names.

This tank is an inspiration!!!


----------



## plantbrain

So far, the tank has had many species and thus a map might not be really accurate 2 months later.

It's more a revolving door so far, but that might change and stabilize more as I like direction more and more.


----------



## SpeedKilz

"In other news, I should have my 180 Gallon's ATI lighting set up next week, or this week hopefully."

Are you going to have build thread for this???


----------



## smracer31

plantbrain said:


> I'll be happier once the rows fatten up in no# of nice high grade tops, since finding these plants was a big enough chore in itself.
> 
> So once they fatten up nice and all the scraggy bottom parts can be culled, then it'll look decent.
> 
> This process takes longer than many think, and then there is the deciding and trying things in various places.......some things do not work well in some spots, while others thrive. Waiting on a new plant you just got to fatten up, or it came in stunted already etc, is also time consuming.
> .


Hi Tom, Great tank! 
Can you elaborate more on this, or perhaps point me in the right direction as im sure this has been discussed. Are you trimming the stems pretty low in order for the plant to grow in bushier, then replanting the top stems once your satisfied with their appearance? And how low do you cut the plant to the substrate? It seems most stem plants i can get my hands on have pretty ragged leaves, and new growth always seems sorta thinned out and im not happy with the appearance, maybe im just not patient enough with them? 

Thanks
Jon


----------



## plantbrain

smracer31 said:


> Hi Tom, Great tank!
> Can you elaborate more on this, or perhaps point me in the right direction as im sure this has been discussed. Are you trimming the stems pretty low in order for the plant to grow in bushier, then replanting the top stems once your satisfied with their appearance? And how low do you cut the plant to the substrate? It seems most stem plants i can get my hands on have pretty ragged leaves, and new growth always seems sorta thinned out and im not happy with the appearance, maybe im just not patient enough with them?
> 
> Thanks
> Jon


Stems are like a time series of how well things have gone for the plant, you can see the size, the bends, the stunting etc. The top might have hit the surface and formed different leaves, or no one dosed all week, or the plants came in hurting to begin with from shipping or poor care in a holding tank.

I trim them low so there is good current in the tank and so they all have good access to light. Then I can try and resprout the stumps for more tops. 

Good GENERAL overall growing conditions allows me to grow the plants faster and healthier. So the groups will progress faster. If you do not have those conditions, then it will take longer or you might not have the nice growth/appearance you like.


----------



## plantbrain

SpeedKilz said:


> "In other news, I should have my 180 Gallon's ATI lighting set up next week, or this week hopefully."
> 
> Are you going to have build thread for this???


"Tom's 180 Gallon Woodscaping"


----------



## Craigthor

If you wanted E. Goias there is some out your way reasonable priced. 

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-ludwigia-needle-fern-nesaea-pedicellata.html

Craig


----------



## @[email protected]

how do you keep your plants so red? i can never get my plants to get red, they are always just greenish with some yellowy orange at the growth tip. 
i read that low NO3- and high Fe can get them to color up, but that goes totally against the basis of EI, which is how i dose in my high light setups.


----------



## plantbrain

I dose KNO3/KH2PO4- 2-3x a week at 15ppm/5ppm per dose.

Hardly lean or low dosing.


----------



## plantbrain

Craigthor said:


> If you wanted E. Goias there is some out your way reasonable priced.
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-ludwigia-needle-fern-nesaea-pedicellata.html
> 
> Craig


Thanks, I do not go to APC. But if you bought them, then traded for wood or plants:wink:


----------



## thefisherman

really no APC Tom? don't want to sound like a knitting circle but... Do pray tell! 


- thefisherman


----------



## crazydaz

Whatever Fish! You're probably posting while you are at Bitch N' Stitch right now!


----------



## zachary908

I think the APC boys get mad at Tom because he's too awesome. Glad to have you on TPT, Tom!


----------



## Amazonfish

:icon_eek::icon_eek::drool::drool::drool::drool:

I can't even believe what I'm seeing. 

As soon as I saw the title of this thread, I knew I was going to love it. None of that iwagumi/ADA crap. This is the good stuff. This is why I have a planted tank. 

And...this tank is also why I want an 18" depth instead of 12" like my 50 gallon. In my tank, I feel like I have a wall of plants, instead of a tank of them. 

But anyway. You have done an amazing job on this tank.


----------



## zachary908

The tank is looking fantastic as always, Tom.



Amazonfish said:


> And...this tank is also why I want an 18" depth instead of 12" like my 50 gallon. In my tank, I feel like I have a wall of plants, instead of a tank of them.


Go for at least 24" if you can.. I had a 75g (18") And wasn't happy with it.. now I'm upgrading. :hihi:


----------



## thefisherman

crazydaz said:


> Whatever Fish! You're probably posting while you are at Bitch N' Stitch right now!


how'd you guess that was my other hobby?! :O


- thefisherman


----------



## ua hua

Are you using the uvl red sun bulb on this tank? I'm really curious to what this light bulb would look like. It looks really red from the pictures that I have seen but if paired with the right color combinations of bulbs might look alright.


----------



## plantbrain

thefisherman said:


> really no APC Tom? don't want to sound like a knitting circle but... Do pray tell!
> 
> 
> - thefisherman


I got better things to do, like scape, sell plants/wood, and help folks. 

A new wood hardscape for another TPT member:









Now his tank is 30" tall, so placing the wood up high like this makes better use of the slope.

In the 120 Gal here:









I lack the height, so I have to trim the slope to make it work.
I could keep shorter plants, or trim often and have the sediment slope up to the rear more, like a grassy hill etc.........but then I lose a lot of the ability to make and form the colorful display plants.


----------



## crazydaz

ua hua---look on page 35 of this thread. I don't think Tom is using the UVL Red Sun on this tank.


----------



## plantbrain

crazydaz said:


> ua hua---look on page 35 of this thread. I don't think Tom is using the UVL Red Sun on this tank.


I might again, but I have to get use to the sucker and I'd only use 1.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Are you using the uvl red sun bulb on this tank? I'm really curious to what this light bulb would look like. It looks really red from the pictures that I have seen but if paired with the right color combinations of bulbs might look alright.


The red reflection off the water was weird, but the color in the tank was awesome.


----------



## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> The red reflection off the water was weird, but the color in the tank was awesome.


I think I'm going to order one just for the heck of it to see what it looks like. I will be getting my new tek lighting in a few weeks and will be using Geismann midday, Geismann aquaflora, ati blue special, ati purple plus. I'm not quite sure what it will look like with only one white bulb on the tank with the blues, purples, and red. The only way to find out is to try different color combos to see what looks best.


----------



## Overfloater

So where is the for sale thread for this tank?  I have PP and free space.


----------



## plantbrain

Overfloater said:


> So where is the for sale thread for this tank?  I have PP and free space.


Huh? You got the money? :hihi:
Everything is for sale, but most will not like the price.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> I think I'm going to order one just for the heck of it to see what it looks like. I will be getting my new tek lighting in a few weeks and will be using Geismann midday, Geismann aquaflora, ati blue special, ati purple plus. I'm not quite sure what it will look like with only one white bulb on the tank with the blues, purples, and red. The only way to find out is to try different color combos to see what looks best.


Speaking of Tek lights, I have one with 5 different bulb types and 12 extra plus the 8 in the Tek 8x54W hood for sale.

I should repost it.


----------



## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> Speaking of Tek lights, I have one with 5 different bulb types and 12 extra plus the 8 in the Tek 8x54W hood for sale.
> 
> I should repost it.


Where is this light you have for sale? I think 8x54 might just be a little too much light for my 90 gal. My tank has a canopy and I can't raise the lights any higher than 7" off the top. I was going to put tek retrofits in my canopy but if your light is comparable to what I was going to spend I may change my mind. That light can have either 2-4-6-8 lights on right?


----------



## Craigthor

ua hua said:


> Where is this light you have for sale? I think 8x54 might just be a little too much light for my 90 gal. My tank has a canopy and I can't raise the lights any higher than 7" off the top. I was going to put tek retrofits in my canopy but if your light is comparable to what I was going to spend I may change my mind. That light can have either 2-4-6-8 lights on right?


 
I'm guessing this is his old thread:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sponsors-power-seller-specials/166437-fs-tek-8x54w-t-fixture.html


----------



## ua hua

Craigthor said:


> I'm guessing this is his old thread:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sponsors-power-seller-specials/166437-fs-tek-8x54w-t-fixture.html


Thanks Craig. That is a really good price for that light and all those bulbs. Now I have a decision to make. I would never use all 8 lights on my tank unless I would go back to the darkside of reefkeeping.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Thanks Craig. That is a really good price for that light and all those bulbs. Now I have a decision to make. I would never use all 8 lights on my tank unless I would go back to the darkside of reefkeeping.


You will note I am only using 1/2 the lights, but.........they are the outer 2 sets, which gives the widest spread possible. On a 90 gal, even the edges of the tank will be well lit.

You can also use the middle 4 bulbs and not the outer 2 sets.

If you are around for a day or two in the middle, you can switch on the other switch for all 8 bulbs for your lunch hour........etc.

Lots of bulb options also.


----------



## plantbrain

If I can find some Erio "Gioas", I think I'll sell of the Erio cinereums and replace that area with Downoi, then make a row of the Larger Bright green Erio gioas.


----------



## sundragon

Wow, that is going to be amazing!


----------



## Chlorophile

If you don't mind my asking, what is your KH, GH, and pH?

The reason I ask is because you have so many PFRs and I was under the impression they didn't like acidic water so I'm assuming your pH is closer to 7. 

But I would assume you have lots of co2 in that tank...
Just hoping that I can infer some things by seeing your params.
Thanks!


----------



## plantbrain

Chlorophile said:


> If you don't mind my asking, what is your KH, GH, and pH?
> 
> The reason I ask is because you have so many PFRs and I was under the impression they didn't like acidic water so I'm assuming your pH is closer to 7.
> 
> But I would assume you have lots of co2 in that tank...
> Just hoping that I can infer some things by seeing your params.
> Thanks!


pH runs down in to the upper 5's.
KH is 20ppm a tad over 1 degree, GH is about 25ppm in the tap, but I add about a table spoon of GH booster 2x a week.


----------



## Chlorophile

plantbrain said:


> pH runs down in to the upper 5's.
> KH is 20ppm a tad over 1 degree, GH is about 25ppm in the tap, but I add about a table spoon of GH booster 2x a week.


Interesting - are you using aquasoil? Whatever you have looks a bit more pink than AS but I thought it may be your bulbs. 

So I guess your GH is around 2 Degrees... Maybe I am not sure. 

Very interesting water parameters, I wonder why they are doing so well for you, seems they shouldn't breed in such low pH but I wonder if the pH drop from co2 doesn't really count.

I guess I shouldn't have any problems breeding them in my high tech tank as well as my poop box (nasty shrimp tank)

You should put some Sundadanio Axelrodi in there, they'd love those conditions provided the co2 isn't too extreme. 
But Cherry Barbs would look really nice too.


----------



## plantbrain

Chlorophile said:


> Interesting - are you using aquasoil? Whatever you have looks a bit more pink than AS but I thought it may be your bulbs.
> 
> So I guess your GH is around 2 Degrees... Maybe I am not sure.
> 
> Very interesting water parameters, I wonder why they are doing so well for you, seems they shouldn't breed in such low pH but I wonder if the pH drop from co2 doesn't really count.
> 
> I guess I shouldn't have any problems breeding them in my high tech tank as well as my poop box (nasty shrimp tank)
> 
> You should put some Sundadanio Axelrodi in there, they'd love those conditions provided the co2 isn't too extreme.
> But Cherry Barbs would look really nice too.


I have pink bulbs up front and blues in the middle and rear.
ADA AS.

pH movement from tannins and CO2 do not matter. Shrimp zealotry also can cause assumptions that may not be valid and are more based on breeding production without plants etc. Same with plant zealotry:tongue:

No barbs will go into this tank.
Danio would be nice........

I'm still undecided as to the fish that will be placed in here, I still need to remove the rest of the rainbows, I think there's about 12-15 left.

The Double trunk elelphant nose and the all the shrimp, Gold nuggets, otto cats will stay put.

I like Gold brass tetras but as they age, they lose that nice metallic coloration, school behavior is awesome though.


----------



## Chlorophile

plantbrain said:


> I have pink bulbs up front and blues in the middle and rear.
> ADA AS.
> 
> pH movement from tannins and CO2 do not matter. Shrimp zealotry also can cause assumptions that may not be valid and are more based on breeding production without plants etc. Same with plant zealotry:tongue:
> 
> No barbs will go into this tank.
> Danio would be nice........
> 
> I'm still undecided as to the fish that will be placed in here, I still need to remove the rest of the rainbows, I think there's about 12-15 left.
> 
> The Double trunk elelphant nose and the all the shrimp, Gold nuggets, otto cats will stay put.
> 
> I like Gold brass tetras but as they age, they lose that nice metallic coloration, school behavior is awesome though.



Hah right, why no barbs? Shrimp eaters?

Didn't know you had any livestock in this tank! I never see any! Well I knew you had shrimp but thats it.


----------



## plantbrain

Barbs like to pick at most anything furry, and there are quite a few plants and moss that are that, shrimp eaters also.


----------



## plantbrain

Chlorophile said:


> Hah right, why no barbs? Shrimp eaters?
> 
> Didn't know you had any livestock in this tank! I never see any! Well I knew you had shrimp but thats it.


Yea, I have much better fish color with these new bluer bulbs with the Rainbows, but they sink into the plants and you do not see them much except when they dart out and hide quickly, so I'm ponding a fish that will stand out in this display, will not jump out also, will not eat/destroy the scapes/plants, does not eat shrimp, the choices are actually very limiting suddenly.

Any pics of good fish candidates that meet the above are awlays welcomed.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

hMM i will actually be picking up a set of rainbows today or tomorrow. not sure of the name. silvery body with beautiful red fins. very active.. ill post pics of in them in tank by tomorrow 

probably can jump out though


----------



## audioaficionado

http://www.fishprofiles.info/bloodfintetra.jpg


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> http://www.fishprofiles.info/bloodfintetra.jpg


Yea, I've not kept Bloodfins. I ogle them every so often.


----------



## plantbrain

Megalamphodus sweglesi and Coral Ark's. Coral's all hide, but might come out more with a schooling fish.

I'd love some Espei pencils or red tail Hemiodus but they jump.


----------



## ua hua

How about Sawbwa resplendens.


----------



## shortsboy

I had a glorious group of bloodfins for a while. Loved the bright silver against the green. Wife thought they were creepy. That ended the discussion fairly promptly. Now I have neons.


----------



## antbug

A large group of chili rasbora's?


----------



## sketch804

ua hua said:


> How about Sawbwa resplendens.


I SO WISH I could find these things around my area! 



antbug said:


> A large group of chili rasbora's?


Yes I agree! I know they are small but a school of 50-100 of Borara brigittae would be awesome!


----------



## kwheeler91

Threadfin rainbows are very nice.


----------



## Chlorophile

plantbrain said:


> Yea, I've not kept Bloodfins. I ogle them every so often.


Blood fins are nice, they school really well - I had some but they attacked my cories... I suspect they would definitely attack shrimp..


----------



## antbug

sketch804 said:


> Yes I agree! I know they are small but a school of 50-100 of Borara brigittae would be awesome!


You don't know Tom so well. He'd get like 500 if he went this route. :hihi: I mean, he has/had 300+ cardinals in his 180 and they were fat suckers. Imagine what a school of 500 would look like.


----------



## sepehr

antbug said:


> You don't know Tom so well. He'd get like 500 if he went this route. :hihi: I mean, he has/had 300+ cardinals in his 180 and they were fat suckers. Imagine what a school of 500 would look like.


You could say that again! Tom is the Chuck Norris of the planted tanks. Once he stepped into a LFS where they had many algae infested tanks and shrtly after he stepped out of the store, all the algaes somehow turned red and died.


----------



## plantbrain

Borara brigittae are on the list for sure.

Curiously, Botia sidthimunkii have never bothered CRS or RCS/Fire shrimp ever I can verify. I've kept them together for a couple of years without any issues.

They will eat mysid and brine with reckless abandon........but not tiny cherries.

Red phantoms or Borara's are leading the listing.


Sawbwa are nice fish, I've seen those every so often.

I'm leading to the Borara and Botia mix.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> You don't know Tom so well. He'd get like 500 if he went this route. :hihi: I mean, he has/had 300+ cardinals in his 180 and they were fat suckers. Imagine what a school of 500 would look like.


It would be more like 200 and then about 30 Botia.

I need to see how cool I can keep the fish also, I'd rather keep the tank at 75F or so if possible and then go with some Crystal Red SS grade or so.


----------



## sketch804

antbug said:


> You don't know Tom so well. He'd get like 500 if he
> went this route. I mean, he has/had 300+ cardinals in his 180 and they were fat suckers.
> Imagine what a school of 500 would look like.


Haha ya i had a feeling i was grossly underestimating those numbers haha..that will be my next school of fish i get myself..i am just waiting for this importer to get them in ha! 

Wow i am surprised your loach doesnt attack your shimp! Thats how i lost my first ones i ever got because i wasnt thinking about it right...well whatever you decide to do Tom, i bet it'll look great in your tank hands down!!


----------



## plantbrain

Pruned and moved the Downoi to the Erio cinereum spot, the Erios are being sold(see sponser/powerseller's thread).

I plan on replacing them with Erio "goias". Or perhaps some other slow growing rare plant, Buce's etc.

I like the look of the change.


----------



## lollerpoop

Ahhh buces,definetly top 5 of my favourite plants!
But they are very slowgrowing and expensive...GO FOR IT!!
I dont think you'll regret it.


----------



## Rion

Well my vote is always for Celestial Pearl Danios. I haven't had a problem with them eating shrimp and I've only ever had one or two jump. They can hide but with larger numbers of them they do hang out in the open. They just aren't a schooling fish like rasboras, they shoal.


----------



## thefisherman

i've always loved CPD's but i hesitates getting them because of the softwater and high temp in my tank. i understand thy CPD's prefer more alkaline waters and cooler temps. am i misinformed?


- thefisherman


----------



## Chlorophile

Water Parameters aside - the behavior of 60 Celestial pearl danios would be amazing. 

Although they are small, I think having more than 60 would actually be detrimental to their behavior. 

If you could have 60, their schooling behaviors would be very interesting. 
Atleast 2 separate gangs would form, an alpha male in each gang, each defending a territory of the tank. 
I would love to see it.
Having too many wouldn't be as interesting, I'd prefer to see a couple groups of them each battling and playing, etc.

I don't think CPD are very preferential to any temps.
I've only kept the ones I have in ranges between 71 and 77 but they don't act any different in either.
I still can't get them to breed yet but... who knows the reasoning for that.... 
Don't think they'd like the low pH though, they are from pretty soft water which wouldn't be bad, but yea.. ph..


----------



## Da Plant Man

Chlorophile said:


> Having too many wouldn't be as interesting, I'd prefer to see a couple groups of them each battling and playing, etc.


I just picture the alpha males being like: "FOR SPARTAAAAAAA!"


----------



## plantbrain

Chlorophile said:


> Water Parameters aside - the behavior of 60 Celestial pearl danios would be amazing.
> 
> Although they are small, I think having more than 60 would actually be detrimental to their behavior.
> 
> If you could have 60, their schooling behaviors would be very interesting.
> Atleast 2 separate gangs would form, an alpha male in each gang, each defending a territory of the tank.
> I would love to see it.
> Having too many wouldn't be as interesting, I'd prefer to see a couple groups of them each battling and playing, etc.
> 
> I don't think CPD are very preferential to any temps.
> I've only kept the ones I have in ranges between 71 and 77 but they don't act any different in either.
> I still can't get them to breed yet but... who knows the reasoning for that....
> Don't think they'd like the low pH though, they are from pretty soft water which wouldn't be bad, but yea.. ph..


I had 40 in a 37 gal tank and we never saw them. It was a thick planted tank, I know them and I'd never see them much.

I think I'll be going towards the Borara's.
N espei would be ideal, but a few hundred $ worth of dried fish is not my cup of tea. I stop off at the wholesaler's tomorrow for the client and see what I can find there.


----------



## plantbrain

Yanked out the Erios and moved the downoi, looks much better I think.

I am going to try and get enough Erio gioas to fill in a new spot along with more Buce's.


----------



## plantbrain

I did get some Erio gioas (6), these tend to get about grapefruit size and have a lighter green coloration, wider leaves. 

Still pondering where exactly I'll place them, but somewhere on the Left side or perhaps make a row where the regular Tonina is now.


----------



## kwheeler91

I had cpds for a year or so, even bred and reared fry successfully. I think a combo of high temps(summer), and low ph(co2) did my adults in.

Thats wierd tom that they hid all the time, I had a dozen or so in a 20 hexagon tank, along with 6 pygmy cories, 5 espei, 16 b. Brigattae, crs, and trap door snails, very heavily planted and they were out all the time. it was verry cool because they all had their own niche in the tank. Maybe they need dither fish of a sort, something to make um feel more comfortable. You could do cpds with the rosy loaches that they cohabitate with in the wild.

I was always afraid of my dwarf loaches eating shrimp, thus my is shrimpless, maybe ill give it try.


----------



## plantbrain

I've had them(CPD's) for a long time, they always hid.


----------



## Craigthor

Tom, did you get the Goias from Tony? I never did get him to reply to me, so hopefully he came through on your end.

Craig


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

SO i said i was going to buy a school of neon rainbows. melanotaenia praecox

so here is a pic of part of the school consisting of a few females and males.
males have red fins females have yellow

they both shimmer blue when reflecting light which they are very active fish and that happens frequently

sorry for the crappy shots. this is a point and shoot camera basically

the colors are a lot brighter than the pictures show


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

slightly adjusted picture to give a better definition. fins still look ehh and body color isn't there.. but it gives a little better idea


----------



## sketch804

Looking great!


----------



## thefisherman

i love preacox 


- thefisherman


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Yeah i just wish my camera could capture their true beauty


----------



## plantbrain

Craigthor said:


> Tom, did you get the Goias from Tony? I never did get him to reply to me, so hopefully he came through on your end.
> 
> Craig


I bought them already, but they have not arrived yet, everything is prepped 
Good guy.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Yeah i just wish my camera could capture their true beauty


They just really do not show well in this tank. 
I've tried and changed bulbs around etc.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Bummer... but i suppose i can see why. U just have too many colors lol


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Bummer... but i suppose i can see why. U just have too many colors lol


I think with a white sand and cool moss background, and the lighting more designed for the fish, it would loo better. I did add some more double trunk elephant noses.


----------



## hock

plantbrain said:


> Duct tape, that's how to stop CO2 loss froma wet/dry, look at the filter, you'll see it on the top lip. Now that section is just a giant CO2 reactor.


Hi Tom,
Can i check where did u locate your diffuser or reactor? In sump or main tank or inline?

Thanks


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

hock said:


> Hi Tom,
> Can i check where did u locate your diffuser or reactor? In sump or main tank or inline?
> 
> Thanks


 HE HAS NEITHER MUWAHAHAHAHA
his tubing goes to a needlewheel pump.. he has a 7up tank


----------



## hock

HD Blazingwolf said:


> HE HAS NEITHER MUWAHAHAHAHA
> his tubing goes to a needlewheel pump.. he has a 7up tank


Just finish reading all his post. Haha. 
Got it. Thanks.


----------



## plantbrain

Update, did not clean the glass or wait for the water to clear, but....live with it. 










I may move the Erios in the front.
Still pondering.



















I replaced the Fissidens with Subwassertang for now, the Fissidens came in with hair algae and I'd hoped the shrimp would remove it, they keep it beaten back well, but.......
Some I placed the moss in an emergent terrarium type of set up and then it will go to a dark tank for a week or so. Subwassertang is weedy also, but has a nice color and texture, and no algae.

I might move the Erios to the Toninia lotus blossom on the Left side and then move the Tonina to where the larger Tonina is now (and get rid of the normal Tonina).
The new Erio Gioas will get good sized, roughly baseball size or larger. I have 6 now and a tiny plantlet. I'll thin out some Downoi and open that space up more next to the Subwassertang for the Erios. 
The Ammannia is hit or miss with some of the the stems, some are recovering and adapting well, others are not. I'll cull the nicer tops and replant in a month or so. The L. pantanal did this also once it hit the surface of the water.

I might consider Ludwigia breviceps instead of the Ammannia and perhaps find a home for the Ammannia in the rear.


----------



## Kosey929

kwheeler91 said:


> I had cpds for a year or so, even bred and reared fry successfully. I think a combo of high temps(summer), and low ph(co2) did my adults in.
> 
> Thats wierd tom that they hid all the time, I had a dozen or so in a 20 hexagon tank, along with 6 pygmy cories, 5 espei, 16 b. Brigattae, crs, and trap door snails, very heavily planted and they were out all the time. it was verry cool because they all had their own niche in the tank. Maybe they need dither fish of a sort, something to make um feel more comfortable. You could do cpds with the rosy loaches that they cohabitate with in the wild.
> 
> I was always afraid of my dwarf loaches eating shrimp, thus my is shrimpless, maybe ill give it try.


I recently added a small school of glowlight tetras to a tank with CPDs that were always hiding. The CPDs immediately joined the glowlight school and now they're out all the time. They even come to the surface to feed. I think perhaps they feel comfortable with the glowlights because they are of similar color and size. Just my two cents. 

The tank looks amazing by the way!!


----------



## rockwood

That looks absolutely fantastic. I WISH I could pull something like this off.


----------



## cujarrett

Looks great!


----------



## zergling

Tom, the alternating colors are now starting to remind me of reef tanks with (seemingly) hundreds of different coral species!

You should prolly not show it to reef folks, that might encourage them to try planted tanks with their 600++ par lights hahahaha!


----------



## youjettisonme

Good lord Tom. It is so refreshing to see something so different. This tank is Alice in Wonderland in all the right ways. I probably am not going to read through all 55 pages so I'd like to know how often and how much are you dosing iron to bring out all those colors? Additionally, is there something else to it?

Thx.


----------



## crazydaz

This is probably what God's fish tank looks like in his living room. It's a little depressing because I consider myself to be a decent aquatic gardener, but I'll never make it to this level.

Thanks a lot, Tom!  :icon_lol:


----------



## plantbrain

youjettisonme said:


> Good lord Tom. It is so refreshing to see something so different. This tank is Alice in Wonderland in all the right ways. I probably am not going to read through all 55 pages so I'd like to know how often and how much are you dosing iron to bring out all those colors? Additionally, is there something else to it?
> 
> Thx.


There is no trick to dosing, in fact, that's the least % of what it takes to keep a tank like this. CO2/light and then good consistent trimming and removal of leaves, water changes, just keeping things tidy and clean. 

Since I have fire shrimp which breed real fast, I can sell those.
I also have a wide range of plants, many are rare and $$$.

So I can get paid if I work on the tank and that keeps me motivated.
After 15-20 years ot telling folks to stop fearing ferts, I guess I got little tired of it. This seems to make the point better.


----------



## kwheeler91

Kosey929 said:


> I recently added a small school of glowlight tetras to a tank with CPDs that were always hiding. The CPDs immediately joined the glowlight school and now they're out all the time. They even come to the surface to feed. I think perhaps they feel comfortable with the glowlights because they are of similar color and size. Just my two cents.
> 
> The tank looks amazing by the way!!


Thus, my hypothesis is gaining support.


----------



## Daximus

plantbrain said:


> Update, did not clean the glass or wait for the water to clear, but....live with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I may move the Erios in the front.
> Still pondering.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I replaced the Fissidens with Subwassertang for now, the Fissidens came in with hair algae and I'd hoped the shrimp would remove it, they keep it beaten back well, but.......
> Some I placed the moss in an emergent terrarium type of set up and then it will go to a dark tank for a week or so. Subwassertang is weedy also, but has a nice color and texture, and no algae.
> 
> I might move the Erios to the Toninia lotus blossom on the Left side and then move the Tonina to where the larger Tonina is now (and get rid of the normal Tonina).
> The new Erio Gioas will get good sized, roughly baseball size or larger. I have 6 now and a tiny plantlet. I'll thin out some Downoi and open that space up more next to the Subwassertang for the Erios.
> The Ammannia is hit or miss with some of the the stems, some are recovering and adapting well, others are not. I'll cull the nicer tops and replant in a month or so. The L. pantanal did this also once it hit the surface of the water.
> 
> I might consider Ludwigia breviceps instead of the Ammannia and perhaps find a home for the Ammannia in the rear.


Good Lord Mr. Barr...this looks almost imaginary. Wow. If I saw something like this on the "interwebs" a few years ago I would swear it was a Photoshop trick. 

Amazing man.


----------



## plantbrain

Daximus said:


> Good Lord Mr. Barr...this looks almost imaginary. Wow. If I saw something like this on the "interwebs" a few years ago I would swear it was a Photoshop trick.
> 
> Amazing man.


Well, there are plenty of folks in the local club that have seen it......unless they are all in the lie.........:hihi:

"Here, I'll give you free cuttings if you lie about it, okay? Deal?"


----------



## Daximus

plantbrain said:


> Well, there are plenty of folks in the local club that have seen it......unless they are all in the lie.........:hihi:
> 
> "Here, I'll give you free cuttings if you lie about it, okay? Deal?"


Hahaha, no I didn't mean it like that. I know it's real...I've seen too much of your work to call shenanigans. It's just that I only got interested in planted tanks about a year ago...had I seen this tank then, I would not have believed it was possible. 


It really is one of the most impressive tanks I have ever seen.


----------



## plantbrain

Look at the growth rate from raggy old Downoi stumps, left over stuff I typically throw away and about 1 month or the last page when I did not trim for about 8 days. That is some serious growth and not with the easy plants.

Now 









Versus about a month ago:









The pantanal all comes from 2 dinky little pale bottom stumps about 2 months ago, took awhile to fatten up, still have a few wide leaf types left, but in 2 more weeks, they will be phased out.

On the bad side, after a few days, the Ammannia still has just started to recover. I'd put A reineckii, but it's got that same color as L peruinesis and the Red ludwigia, similar shade of color and it tends to do better and like lower light rather than front and center.

It's a pesky spot for balancing the stronger Right side of the tank.
I need a more bright red color. I'll wait and see if the Ammannia adapts well to that spot. If not, I'll move it to the client or the 180 gal tank.

I added the ATI fixtures on the 180 Gal now, so I have the same type of thing over there. Looks weird. I'll need to change out the bulbs and go with more white and greener color bulbs. Blues and reds are too harsh, but they make the plants grow like mad. I want a more greener feel rather than brighter colors.


----------



## plantbrain

Daximus said:


> Hahaha, no I didn't mean it like that. I know it's real...I've seen too much of your work to call shenanigans. It's just that I only got interested in planted tanks about a year ago...had I seen this tank then, I would not have believed it was possible.
> 
> 
> It really is one of the most impressive tanks I have ever seen.


I'm 100% joking there.........
Well, maybe it'll be where I want in a few more months, but it's slowly getting there, it's more of an experimentation and rotation garden.

I will say the new light is a wonderful toy.


----------



## Chlorophile

plantbrain said:


> Look at the growth rate from raggy old Downoi stumps, left over stuff I typically throw away and about 1 month or the last page when I did not trim for about 8 days. That is some serious growth and not with the easy plants.
> 
> Now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Versus about a month ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pantanal all comes from 2 dinky little pale bottom stumps about 2 months ago, took awhile to fatten up, still have a few wide leaf types left, but in 2 more weeks, they will be phased out.
> 
> On the bad side, after a few days, the Ammannia still has just started to recover. I'd put A reineckii, but it's got that same color as L peruinesis and the Red ludwigia, similar shade of color and it tends to do better and like lower light rather than front and center.
> 
> It's a pesky spot for balancing the stronger Right side of the tank.
> I need a more bright red color. I'll wait and see if the Ammannia adapts well to that spot. If not, I'll move it to the client or the 180 gal tank.
> 
> I added the ATI fixtures on the 180 Gal now, so I have the same type of thing over there. Looks weird. I'll need to change out the bulbs and go with more white and greener color bulbs. Blues and reds are too harsh, but they make the plants grow like mad. I want a more greener feel rather than brighter colors.


Pretty sure I liked the erio's where they were far more than the downoi. 
Actually, honestly, the downoi looks out of place in this tank. 
I would remove them all together, their color and shape dont mesh well for me.


----------



## ObeytheFish

That's an awesome looking piece of dw! 
You sell dw?


----------



## crazydaz

Yes, ObeytheFish, he does. Go to the PowerSeller Forum. He has manzanita up the wazoo.


----------



## plantbrain

Chlorophile said:


> Pretty sure I liked the erio's where they were far more than the downoi.
> Actually, honestly, the downoi looks out of place in this tank.
> I would remove them all together, their color and shape dont mesh well for me.


I may switch the Downoi and the UG. Then add the 6-7 erios in a row(Tonina lotus blossom would be moved).

Need to think about it more.


----------



## Chlorophile

plantbrain said:


> I may switch the Downoi and the UG. Then add the 6-7 erios in a row(Tonina lotus blossom would be moved).
> 
> Need to think about it more.


Hmm, I do think the Downoi would look good where the UG is.. 
I wonder how the UG would look so front and center though, you are opposed to letting plants grow up to the glass aren't you?


----------



## plantbrain

Chlorophile said:


> Hmm, I do think the Downoi would look good where the UG is..
> I wonder how the UG would look so front and center though, you are opposed to letting plants grow up to the glass aren't you?


Yes, it looks bad IME.

The same area or a slightly different shape as the downoi group is at now would look nice.

I still have yet to find a suited red plant for the Left side. So the search continues.


----------



## plantbrain

When I trim the UG next, I'll switch the downoi and the UG locations.

This will be a couple of weeks still. I think I'll move the Tonia lotus blossom to the other side where the normal Tonia is, then sell all the regular Tonina.

The space will open up where that Tonia lotus blossom is now and I'll add those Erios back in that location.

In the front where the Erios are now........I'll come up with some more Fissidens wood pieces to add as a foreground.

I may get some E triandra to put in that location also.


----------



## @[email protected]

what substrate are you using? (sorry if you already mentioned this)
i love how great your erios look, and was wondering if it had to do with your substrate.


----------



## Overfloater

He is using Aquasoil Amazonia.


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> what substrate are you using? (sorry if you already mentioned this)
> i love how great your erios look, and was wondering if it had to do with your substrate.


Maybe, I've seen some nice Erios in EC and Flourite sand.


----------



## sketch804

Just wondering since I don't see it in here, but what temperature do you keep your tank at??


----------



## plantbrain

About 80F


----------



## Chlorophile

New layout sounds good, those Erios should look quite nice when filled in more.


----------



## sketch804

plantbrain said:


> About 80F


 Really? Wow I am surprised everything does so well at such a high temperature! But then again I really shouldn't be surprised..I know some plants don't like high temp.'s but both my friend and I have found if you accimliate plants slowly then most of the time they are good to go for the most part. For instance my friend runs his tank at around 83-82F and everything just seems to be flourishing with out the addition of CO2 or Ferts, I don't get it..But anyway, do you find that some of your plants might not do as well at that sort of elevated temp., or is it not really much of a factor in you opinion?

Nuff with a school of fish, you should go for some nice discus! Or maybe some Blue Rams would do well in your tank with a temperature like that! But then again it might be just a little low, but right in between. (both of which I haven't done that well with so I can't really say much on that matter)..

Thanks!


----------



## plantbrain

Every plant in here does quite well at 75-85F.
I know of very very few that do poorly at such temps.

I do not like Discus, they are okay etc....
Rams would eat all the shrimp.


Changes I am likely to do:


----------



## plantbrain

I think I'll trim and move things this weekend.

Anyone want to buy 30 nice stems of Tonina?:icon_mrgr


----------



## zachary908

plantbrain said:


> I think I'll trim and move things this weekend.
> 
> Anyone want to buy 30 nice stems of Tonina?:icon_mrgr


Of course my tank isn't ready just yet... Otherwise I'd buy it, ha!

Too bad I don't have a holding tank with softwater and Co2


----------



## plantbrain

zachary908 said:


> Of course my tank isn't ready just yet... Otherwise I'd buy it, ha!
> 
> Too bad I don't have a holding tank with softwater and Co2


Well, you will not have the chance again.:icon_cool


----------



## youjettisonme

plantbrain said:


> I think I'll trim and move things this weekend.
> 
> Anyone want to buy 30 nice stems of Tonina?:icon_mrgr


What I want:

A package of 3 each of every stem plant in your tank. :icon_cool


----------



## plantbrain

youjettisonme said:


> What I want:
> 
> A package of 3 each of every stem plant in your tank. :icon_cool


200$

No Erio gioas or Buce's though.


----------



## Chlorophile

plantbrain said:


> Every plant in here does quite well at 75-85F.
> I know of very very few that do poorly at such temps.
> 
> I do not like Discus, they are okay etc....
> Rams would eat all the shrimp.
> 
> 
> Changes I am likely to do:



Where that question mark is.. 
how about Reinecki rosaefolia?


----------



## Chlorophile

Barclaya Longifolia might be good there too but I'm not sure if the leaf structure/growth pattern is quite what you'd want.


----------



## plantbrain

Chlorophile said:


> Barclaya Longifolia might be good there too but I'm not sure if the leaf structure/growth pattern is quite what you'd want.


I considered it also, if only it would stay small.
I am getting some Rotala sunset.

It'll see how it goes, I want a smaller plant really.
Ammannia is awesome, but it gets too large, I might try A senagalenesis.

Moved a few things around, but I think I can improve contrast better.


----------



## plantbrain

Chlorophile said:


> Where that question mark is..
> how about Reinecki rosaefolia?


I think the lighting is a bit too high for it in that location, it's fine behind the wood etc, but then you do not see it.

This light has far more lighting than most folks in terms of PAR.

Even my 180 Gal, runs 100 umol at the bottom now using only 30% power.
That tank is 24" deep and not 18" also.

I had PC's on that tank, running 384W, now I poll only 187W but have 2.5X more light.

I'm only using basically 1 W/gal on my 180.

This 120 Gal is only 3.6W/gal for 4 hours......but it's lots of light.
FAR more than the old school rules of W/Gal.

I suppose I could also try R macrandra, but it's weedy and grows all over.

Not the best form there.


----------



## jgb77

plantbrain said:


> I considered it also, if only it would stay small.
> I am getting some Rotala sunset.
> 
> It'll see how it goes, I want a smaller plant really.
> Ammannia is awesome, but it gets too large, I might try A senagalenesis.
> 
> Moved a few things around, but I think I can improve contrast better.


How about regular form of Ludwigia Inclinata? The leaf shape and color might look pretty good there and it shouldn't get too unruly given enough light.
John


----------



## plantbrain

jgb77 said:


> How about regular form of Ludwigia Inclinata? The leaf shape and color might look pretty good there and it shouldn't get too unruly given enough light.
> John


The Red form is nice, different leaf shape, good even coloration, with good pruning habits, it should not become too onerous to trim. It also has that nice orangish hue that is different than most other red colored plants.
Good call, I'll have to give than one a try and see. It should also handle the current a bit better also.


----------



## doncityz

I think you should add some sand at the front area to cover those ugly soil.


----------



## plantbrain

doncityz said:


> I think you should add some sand at the front area to cover those ugly soil.


What?


----------



## Chlorophile

plantbrain said:


> I think the lighting is a bit too high for it in that location, it's fine behind the wood etc, but then you do not see it.
> 
> This light has far more lighting than most folks in terms of PAR.
> 
> Even my 180 Gal, runs 100 umol at the bottom now using only 30% power.
> That tank is 24" deep and not 18" also.
> 
> I had PC's on that tank, running 384W, now I poll only 187W but have 2.5X more light.
> 
> I'm only using basically 1 W/gal on my 180.
> 
> This 120 Gal is only 3.6W/gal for 4 hours......but it's lots of light.
> FAR more than the old school rules of W/Gal.
> 
> I suppose I could also try R macrandra, but it's weedy and grows all over.
> 
> Not the best form there.


True, I was thinking that since reineckii grows so slow it would be easy to keep at the right hight, it can be very attractive under higher light but I have nothing with as much light as you have so I do not know.
I have always had issues with blackbeard on its lower leaves when they stop growing.


----------



## zachary908

doncityz said:


> I think you should add some sand at the front area to cover those ugly soil.


You can't be serious...


----------



## plantbrain

zachary908 said:


> You can't be serious...


Works fine for Amano, but he's not moving plants around like this in the front either.

Still, the soil looks nicer than aesthetic sand and makes a lot less mess, the sand and soil would rapidly mix and lo VERY tacky. Looks fine in pics, but the reality is that it would be very difficult to do for this tank. There are scapes where this does look good and I've done a few, but I often tend to use 1 type of sediment only.

I do not need ADA AS in the rear or sides...........then I do not have a mess later on and can reuse the soil/sand when I redo the tank.


----------



## audioaficionado

I think the ADA AS substrate looks great. Looks as natural as fine stream gravel, but more uniform in size and color. I want some AS New eventually when I get around to building a large tank. I'm also thinking of using it in a 20L shrimp project.


----------



## plantbrain

I removed the Hydrothrix from the rear, it does not like being next to the Rotala which tended to shade it faster than I could trim it.
I have some Nesaea golden I might try back there.


----------



## pweifan

It would be great to see a time lapse of this tank to see how it grows/how you trim it/what you move around. Just a thought...


----------



## plantbrain

pweifan said:


> It would be great to see a time lapse of this tank to see how it grows/how you trim it/what you move around. Just a thought...


Good idea, but it ain't going to happen.


----------



## zergling

plantbrain said:


> Good idea, but it ain't going to happen.


I literally LOL'd :hihi:

Come on, Tom! You know you want to do it!


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> I literally LOL'd :hihi:
> 
> Come on, Tom! You know you want to do it!


I sort of do it every week or 2x a week as it is.........lucky I'm not that lazy to do that even.


----------



## audioaficionado

Well anyone interested in comparing the changes can download/save all the FTS from this thread and make it into a slideshow if they want to see the progression.


----------



## zergling

audioaficionado said:


> Well anyone interested in comparing the changes can download/save all the FTS from this thread and make it into a slideshow if they want to see the progression.


I think pweifan meant something along the lines of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d26AhcKeEbE


----------



## talontsiawd

plantbrain said:


> Works fine for Amano, but he's not moving plants around like this in the front either.
> 
> Still, the soil looks nicer than aesthetic sand and makes a lot less mess, the sand and soil would rapidly mix and lo VERY tacky. Looks fine in pics, but the reality is that it would be very difficult to do for this tank. There are scapes where this does look good and I've done a few, but I often tend to use 1 type of sediment only.
> 
> I do not need ADA AS in the rear or sides...........then I do not have a mess later on and can reuse the soil/sand when I redo the tank.


I don't think the AS looks ugly and I know you don't want plants up against the glass but I always thought it would look better with either a foreground plant or sand. However, I wouldn't want to deal with sand either and would go your route myself. I tried sand once without any "barrier" like thin plexy and my sand was under my substrate in about a month, surprisingly quick. I know you know that, I am just saying.


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> I think pweifan meant something along the lines of this:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d26AhcKeEbE


If the person posting the idea wants to come over and leave their video camera here and post all the work, knock yer self out. Better be out of the way when I walk by:icon_eek:

I got better things to do than watch plants grow.
Done/do enough of that.


----------



## plantbrain

talontsiawd said:


> I don't think the AS looks ugly and I know you don't want plants up against the glass but I always thought it would look better with either a foreground plant or sand. However, I wouldn't want to deal with sand either and would go your route myself. I tried sand once without any "barrier" like thin plexy and my sand was under my substrate in about a month, surprisingly quick. I know you know that, I am just saying.


The over filled fore ground thing is old, it looks good with Iwagumi styles etc, but few others. FTS only look good because they crop the front edge out.

You can trim the front edge 2" inch back and allow nice new shoots to grow in and not have it press, but it is not a Dutch aesthetic and I agree with the Dutch rules on this aspect. 

The gloss started doing this and I could do it with a dozen or so species choices, but I think it detracts, not enhance. It's too busy then.
The other PRACTICAL function is to provide some space as plants grow and I need more cuttings to fill, or a temp home for species to be sold.
The space also allows me to keep the front looking tidy and clean.
I plan on adding some Elatine and some Fissidens in the front Right side and the UG will grow forward also, the H sibthorpies advances forward also, and I whack it back.
So depending on the state and species, the area will be used.


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> Well anyone interested in comparing the changes can download/save all the FTS from this thread and make it into a slideshow if they want to see the progression.


Yea!


----------



## talontsiawd

plantbrain said:


> The over filled fore ground thing is old, it looks good with Iwagumi styles etc, but few others. FTS only look good because they crop the front edge out.
> 
> You can trim the front edge 2" inch back and allow nice new shoots to grow in and not have it press, but it is not a Dutch aesthetic and I agree with the Dutch rules on this aspect.
> 
> The gloss started doing this and I could do it with a dozen or so species choices, but I think it detracts, not enhance. It's too busy then.
> The other PRACTICAL function is to provide some space as plants grow and I need more cuttings to fill, or a temp home for species to be sold.
> The space also allows me to keep the front looking tidy and clean.
> I plan on adding some Elatine and some Fissidens in the front Right side and the UG will grow forward also, the H sibthorpies advances forward also, and I whack it back.
> So depending on the state and species, the area will be used.


In my post, I say I can see your reasoning for the choice. Simple as that....


----------



## plantbrain

talontsiawd said:


> In my post, I say I can see your reasoning for the choice. Simple as that....


Yes, I did not make that clear about your post, I apologize.

I was more intent on justification. Like many folks, we are tempted to want to plant every square inch and not leave space or space between groups for contrast. But there are those practical reasons for keeping it that way also.

I questioned this many years ago myself and did so for a long time.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> If the person posting the idea wants to come over and leave their video camera here and post all the work, knock yer self out. Better be out of the way when I walk by:icon_eek:
> 
> I got better things to do than watch plants grow.
> Done/do enough of that.


 
ROFLOL
i got a good chuckle out of that one


----------



## plantbrain

I should get some new pics up this weekend.
So be thankful I'm not too lazy to do that even


----------



## plantbrain

Ludwigia pilosa needs to fill and color up, I have a stem of L inclinata orange that will take some time to fill in, if anyone has some for sale, let me know.
L pilosa is rare, so it'll be a couple of months before this plant fills in nicely.

I'm not happy really with the lack of red color on this right side. Downoi is out of place really, but I think if I allow it to grow out, then cull the small stuff and sell that and keep a more orderly row of larger plants, that will make it look better.
The Pellia is cramped really against the UG and the Erio. I have not tied down the Fissidens on the 3 new pieces of small wood on the Right side there.

I moved the P stellata up and it looks good with the yellow and purple coloration. Likely will keep it there. More R wallichii will fill in the back, I might replace the normal R macrandra with the "japan" version.
You can see the Anubias and Buce's spot behind the wood. I was going to work these on those 3 fingers of wood in the front Right side, but I think it's better back here really.

The Tonina Lotus blossom is a much better choice than the normal type.
I moved the Ammannia gracilius to the rear, removed the Hydrothrix entirely.


----------



## audioaficionado

Tom, do you have any threads on your sumps you could point us to? Your tank looks pretty clear in between scape adjustments. I'm looking at building a sump for a larger tank.


----------



## plantbrain

This thread has a pic of the sump in this tank, nothing special.

I do water changes, but it takes 2-4 days to settle down.


----------



## audioaficionado

> Duct tape, that's how to stop CO2 loss froma wet/dry, look at the filter, you'll see it on the top lip. Now that section is just a giant CO2 reactor...














> ...Rainbow plastics Lifeguard, pushed about 900 gph at 4ft head.
> The pump on top is a Tom's diaphram to remove any air that builds up in over flow siphon.


Still trying to visualize how your Tom's diaphram integrates with the sump.

What's the tank turnover rate?
What is the media? 
Sponge pore size?


----------



## plantbrain

Pore size: 20ppi
Media: biobale CPR
Turnover around 800-900 gph.

You can find you tubes on the CPR prefiltering into a sump.


----------



## jcgd

Tom, do you think the results would be sufficient running the co2 in a non needle wheel type return pump? Something like an Eheim 1260?

I love how simple the whole setup is. Do the media chamber and return pump sections maintain the same water height? It looks the the water flows under a single baffle.


----------



## audioaficionado

plantbrain said:


> Pore size: 20ppi
> Media: biobale CPR
> Turnover around 800-900 gph.
> 
> You can find you tubes on the CPR prefiltering into a sump.


Thanx Tom. Quite informative.
CS Overflow - Overview and Installation
DIY version:
Flood Proof-and 100% Silent HOB Overflow


----------



## plantbrain

jcgd said:


> Tom, do you think the results would be sufficient running the co2 in a non needle wheel type return pump? Something like an Eheim 1260?
> 
> I love how simple the whole setup is. Do the media chamber and return pump sections maintain the same water height? It looks the the water flows under a single baffle.


This tank has just the stock impeller, so yes, of course, the mist/needle wheel almost make it more hazy etc IME. My 180 has the Needle wheel fed to the return pump, so 2 pumps etc.......and so does another tank, I'm not sure if one is better vs the other etc.

Seems a tad less hazy with the NW.

Hard to say though.


----------



## plantbrain

Erio Type 3 is growing nicely and makes a great plant for this tank.
It's crowns are smaller than perhaps in a typical tank because I uproot and trim them about once a month. The crowns then split and form another top.

I started with 1 plant, then I had 4 from the 70 Gal than made it and from that, I now have about 30 crowns.

I no longer have room for more after these grow out, so now I'll be selling them for the next trim. The Tonina lotus blossom all came from the dregs I kept after selling a couple of dozen and you can see how well it's reproduced.

The L. vs pantanal has some wide leaf variations that started when I was out of town for 9 days, I guess I'll cull them away over time and /or top and see if the new side shoots do not form the wide leaves(often they do not).

I got some R macrandra japan and will see how it compares to the normal type. Got soem rotala "sunset and see if it looks nice on that left side.


----------



## thefisherman

tom my erio type 3 is unhappy. when i first got it it was growing well and split... my mistake was relocating it  is there anything i can do to revive my stem?


- thefisherman


----------



## plantbrain

thefisherman said:


> tom my erio type 3 is unhappy. when i first got it it was growing well and split... my mistake was relocating it  is there anything i can do to revive my stem?
> 
> 
> - thefisherman


Not much, it does not like being moved much, this is one plant that really does not like that. It also does poorly from the bottom stumps to sprout new tops, the tops split as they go upwards, but the stumps rarely produced side shoots.

Plant in good open area, moderate flow and lots of light/CO2.


----------



## plantbrain

Now:










This is older one last week:









I might change the UG/Downoi back.

The other idea is to switch the Downoi to where the Erio is. Then out the UG back to the side again.
Then place the Erio where the UG is now/where the old Erio was prior.


----------



## jgb77

plantbrain said:


> Ludwigia pilosa needs to fill and color up, I have a stem of L inclinata orange that will take some time to fill in, if anyone has some for sale, let me know.


If the L. Inclinata is hard to come by, how about Ludwigia Senagalensis. It's similar and I've seen some people selling it here as well. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myplants/153-Ludwigia_Guinea_Ludwigia_senegalensis.html
John


----------



## plantbrain

jgb77 said:


> If the L. Inclinata is hard to come by, how about Ludwigia Senagalensis. It's similar and I've seen some people selling it here as well. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myplants/153-Ludwigia_Guinea_Ludwigia_senegalensis.html
> John


This looks better than the inclinata, I've had it before but it's more a mid and background, the L senagal would do nicely.


----------



## plantbrain

I'm not happy with the front Left side, I'm going to redo and change the shape of the groups, it's too, well, the "same"..........

Good news is I'm happy with the back, the middle and Right side, and corners.


----------



## Chlorophile

It would look nice in my opinion if you had plants swooping to the left at the left end.

I think it's UG now, it swoops to the right in a sort of L shape, if you made it swoop the other way and maybe cradle some taller plants, that could look nice.


----------



## Chlorophile

Also the hydrocotyle sibthpordies or whatever the heck it's called would look nice on the left leading up to the erios, or anywhere over there really.

Can't say I'm feeling the new UG placement though and the downoi planting feels very square.

Feels like the left is very flat, something tall where the downoi is would be pretty bold imo


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, I'm going to change the UG, it just does not work there.
It'll got back to far side and make more a twin triangle shape, I'll angle the wood roots out the other direction, away from the others. I'll have some red plants bordering that, then work Downoi along the Red Ludwigia edge.

Then try and figure out what to do with the remainder.

I have the L pilosa, the Pellia, and the Erios or any other red plant options etc.
I have a couple of nice red candidates coming up.

the Erios could go on the other side in between each of the wood fingers. 
Then the fingers will have a little Fissidens added to those and make a nice wide bright green grassy with the dark fine moss.

Need a triangle and some rows going the other direction to balance.


----------



## plantbrain

Front Left piece of wood can be moved and will be to trim off some of the Downoi


Below, I'll add a few more L pilosa(2 small rows) next to these 2.


























I plan on adding more Rotala wallichii in the back and allowing the P stellata to fill in there, with the P sedoies coming around. 
I am going to make the Downoi a zigzag pattern and lop off some of the extra plants on the Left bulge there. This will provide more room.

I wish I could find a good home for the Erio goias.

But not in this tank at least right now.
So that will be removed. I'll work with some smaller Erios from now on. These will go next to the UG and Downoi in the front.
The open space where the Erios are now?

That will be a W shaped rug of Elatine triandra.

I have some R macrandra Japan but it's so similar to the normal, I'll wait and see.

On the side view, you can see the L pilosa, this is a nice plant and has reddened up, but it's never going to achieve a real strong red contrast I'm after.
Sort of a nice orangy color....I'll add another 2-3 tops in this section

I have a few options coming in this week for the red plant in the Left side that's open.
A ruby colored Persicaria 'Ruby' praetermissa, L breviceps, and Ludwigia senegalaensis.
Obviously with more room, the dwarf lily bulbs would be an easy no brainer.
They other idea was adding a lace plant in here to scramble things up with a nice larger leaf rossette plant.

I've gotten much better at replanting UG also. This is the best method to max cutting sales and recovery after pruning.
I planted my 70 Gal woodagumi with UG for this reason.


More work and ideas to explore.


----------



## rockwood

Tom, this tank blows me away every time I come into this thread to check on updates. Absolutely amazing. It's impressive how you're able to pretty much grow anything you want in here completely algae free. 

If I lived closer to you I'd pay for a weekend class to learn the tricks.


----------



## Drink_soy_sauce

I'm sure it's been said many times...but what is the orange-ish colored plant on the front right? I don't know where you find the patients for all this re-planting, but this tank just keeps looking better and better all the time!


----------



## plantbrain

Ludwigia perunesis, maroon looking deep burgundy.
The other next over is L. inclinata var pantanal 

I might change some of the shapes in the coming months in the middle section, basically opening up the fan shape rows to form wedge pie like pieces.
This is a more classic Dutch street style.


----------



## Drink_soy_sauce

plantbrain said:


> Ludwigia perunesis, maroon looking deep burgundy.
> The other next over is L. inclinata var pantanal
> 
> I might change some of the shapes in the coming months in the middle section, basically opening up the fan shape rows to form wedge pie like pieces.
> This is a more classic Dutch street style.


Yeah, the L. inclinata var pantanal. I read the APC profile on it...and looks like i'll probably kill it. So i guess i'll just have to admire it in your awesome tank.


----------



## plantbrain

It's not that hard of plant...........folks often grow the snot out of it, or they kill and stunt it, mostly for 1 reason: CO2, sometimes, they simply do not have enough light.

It is not a hard plant to grow though, at least once you figure out how to grow plants generally.


----------



## bluetibet

Absolutely beautiful! :icon_mrgr

I think something short, dark green and "fuzzy" textured for the empty space (if you don't rescape). Total noob here, so I don't have an actual plant suggestion. I think an airier texture and a dark green would create some balance though.


----------



## plantbrain

bluetibet said:


> Absolutely beautiful! :icon_mrgr
> 
> I think something short, dark green and "fuzzy" textured for the empty space (if you don't rescape). Total noob here, so I don't have an actual plant suggestion. I think an airier texture and a dark green would create some balance though.


I have some Fissidens which fits that billing, I have not yet quite decided where I'll put a bit of it. Since I can attach to wood and make it any shape, it's versatile. Mini Pellia is another.


----------



## plantbrain

Removed the Erios on the Right and moved them just for a bit over on the Left and planted a nice W type shape in the foreground in the front of the Red Ludwigia, Erio type 2 and the Pantanal.

Looks nicer than the gloss rug that was there prior and once it grows in, it should offer some more trimming options.

I also got a nice stem of Pilosa and I can show folks the color difference that just 5 days makes in this tank.


----------



## antbug

Is that the plant on the far left behind the UG? If not, what is that? I was meaning to ask you.


----------



## plantbrain

Added a few Elatine triandra to mimic the old spot where the Gloss was, but I'll make 3 small triangles, not one larger one.














Here you can see how the L. pilosa reddened after 5-6 days(the orange colored plant pair, vs the green one I just received in the front).
This would make a nice display plant in a row, or a large group, something few have done since it is semi slow growing and $$$.
Reminds me of the night plant succulent in gardens around here locally.











Double trunk elephant nose, there's 1 old bully, larger(about 4 years old now), and then the other 4 little ones. 
I have a bird beak as well, but have not added him to any tank just yet, he use to be in a my 60 Gal cube.
I may place him in the 180 gal along with a 15 year old gold nugget male.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Is that the plant on the far left behind the UG? If not, what is that? I was meaning to ask you.


Red low grow Hygro. H. araguaia

Nice plant.


----------



## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> Red low grow Hygro. H. araguaia
> 
> Nice plant.


That is a very cool plant and I'm glad I finally got some. Thanks again. Is that a Gnathonemus Petersii I see in there now. Thats not your typical fish you see in planted tanks but I like how you think outside the box.


----------



## antbug

Not the low grow hygro, this plant....



plantbrain said:


>


What is this? It's Lovely.


----------



## jgb77

antbug said:


> What is this? It's Lovely.


Hello. That plant is Ludwigia Pilosa. See here for more pics/info.
John


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> That is a very cool plant and I'm glad I finally got some. Thanks again. Is that a Gnathonemus Petersii I see in there now. Thats not your typical fish you see in planted tanks but I like how you think outside the box.


Yes, it is, I have 5 in this tank. There is a good reason why you never see them in planted tanks, people kill them with low O2/high CO2.

A few tetras? Give me a break, you keep these guys for a few years, or some of the others in the family(there are over 100, and about 12 or so that are sometimes avail in the hobby).

They are all trained to eat from my hand(At night only).


----------



## plantbrain

jgb77 said:


> Hello. That plant is Ludwigia Pilosa. See here for more pics/info.
> John


Yep, looks how green it was, and now see it?
The front stem is typical............the rear two are after about 5-6 days, they are still redding up, now sure how far red it will go, but I like the off orange color it has now.

Nice unique plant.

I have several ideas on scaping with it, but it will take more time but the a nice row in this display will highlight this plant really nicely.


----------



## jgb77

I was just looking over the various plant placements and design of this tank. It really is well done and thought out.
I would like to get an idea of the amount of time you put into it. How often do you trim the stems in this tank? Judging by the pictures, it would seem you trim them weekly, is this correct? Once you have the actual streets the size you want them, do you top the plants and replant and discard the bottoms? Seems like a lot of work. I guess I'm just trying to get an idea of the work that goes into the dutch style scape.
Thanks,
John


----------



## peyton

plantbrain said:


> Red low grow Hygro. H. araguaia
> 
> Nice plant.


 That is a nice looking plant. May have to add that one to the collection someday.


----------



## plantbrain

jgb77 said:


> I was just looking over the various plant placements and design of this tank. It really is well done and thought out.
> I would like to get an idea of the amount of time you put into it. How often do you trim the stems in this tank? Judging by the pictures, it would seem you trim them weekly, is this correct? Once you have the actual streets the size you want them, do you top the plants and replant and discard the bottoms? Seems like a lot of work. I guess I'm just trying to get an idea of the work that goes into the dutch style scape.
> Thanks,
> John


When I do a water change, I whack and few stems each time, but need to do something while it drains and fills. I do not change everything etc, I might trim some once a month, some not much if at all for months, others, might get a minor trim once a week, or a good trim monthly , others maybe weeks hack, but I sell the stems etc, and rotate things in/sell what's leaving.

Not sure the time, but it's not nearly what many assume it to be.
Some plants just topped, others get the uporoot and trim.
Erio type 3 grows nice and slow(uprooted and replanted), while Ludwgia red, get stopped more.

To redo a row or 2? Takes maybe 5 min.
I do not fuss with it.

Main thing is not going too far and known the plants. This tank grows all species fast and well..........so.........this just leaves the gardener's choices to do. Algae is kept at bay well due to good general care, water changes, trims, CO2/light.

Ferts really are a minor aspect, but it's the 80% of the questions I get, which to me is troubling...........since folks are not asking the right questions.

The journal is good for you to see it's not just magic etc.....you see the trimming each week in the pictures. Trim and pull up and top others.
You sort of experiment with each species and group and see what works best.

ADA's aqua journal and TFH often have trim articles and they are quite good, so look at those.
ADA spends more time on design, hardscape and trimming than most other aspects.


----------



## plantbrain

peyton said:


> That is a nice looking plant. May have to add that one to the collection someday.


It is still for sale in the Sponers/powerseller's forum:icon_wink


----------



## @[email protected]

plantbrain said:


> Ferts really are a minor aspect, but it's the 80% of the questions I get, which to me is troubling...........since folks are not asking the right questions.


i think its due to all the misinformation. 
in my environmental science class 3 years ago, they taught that phosphate runoff causes massive algal blooms in ponds and streams. just phosphate. when i told the teacher about how in aquariums, where you can scientifically control the variables, weve seen that not to be the case and showed her some of your articles. she was astounded. 
people get CO2+light, they know what photosynthesis is. but potassium uptake methods, and cellular uses are not nearly as common knowledge, and people cant figure out whats fact and whats fiction.

btw, how come your tanks are cloudy? do you post pics right after replanting, or are they always like that?


----------



## freph

It comes from moving things around if I recall.


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> i think its due to all the misinformation.
> in my environmental science class 3 years ago, they taught that phosphate runoff causes massive algal blooms in ponds and streams. just phosphate. when i told the teacher about how in aquariums, where you can scientifically control the variables, weve seen that not to be the case and showed her some of your articles. she was astounded.
> people get CO2+light, they know what photosynthesis is. but potassium uptake methods, and cellular uses are not nearly as common knowledge, and people cant figure out whats fact and whats fiction.
> 
> btw, how come your tanks are cloudy? do you post pics right after replanting, or are they always like that?


Well, few EV courses address wetlands with plants.........they just think in terms of aquatic systems that lack plants, in which case, yes, you will typically see increase algae blooms.

If you add ferts to aquatic plants, you get more plants. Fairly simple. since many water ways have had the wetland buffer zones removed and farmland, or other structures.........(my fav is a large housing development in Natomas north of Sacramento, what idiots), then the runoff from these point sources of pollution are much more intense.

With buffer zones, the economic and ecological services far outweigh the crooked short term gain. This can be done at a large scale in the Midwest with many of the main river systems there, it'll increase the health and well being. Sequesters and retains the nutrients, provides excellent critter habitat, bugs that pollinate the farms and fields.......prevents flooding, on and on.......
Aquariums are tiny glass boxes, but...we can see the dynamics really well even still. 


Yep, I trim while I do water changes and uproot etc, so the dust is fairly present in many pics. High light also causes more wash out/reflection.

Some pics are clear since I took them before the trim etc.


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> Here you can see how the L. pilosa reddened after 5-6 days(the orange colored plant pair, vs the green one I just received in the front).
> This would make a nice display plant in a row, or a large group, something few have done since it is semi slow growing and $$$.
> Reminds me of the night plant succulent in gardens around here locally.


It's easily one of the nicest plants that came into the hobby last year. If it grew a little faster it would be perfect.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> It's easily one of the nicest plants that came into the hobby last year. If it grew a little faster it would be perfect.


Oh heck no!, I want slow growers.
Otherwise I have to whack and trim them too much, also keeps the price up longer.

That front plant has turned reddish. The bottom stumps I trimmed have formed 4-6 sprouted tips, so it looks like I can make a nice foreground area of them in a couple of months or so.

I think that is better than a week or two


----------



## plantbrain

Still waiting for some red stem plants to try out on the Left side there, the green plant(ACMELLA REPENS) I will use somewhat like old school Dutch use Lizard tail.......but need to allow the plant to grow out more before making a zigzag line of it.
Using it like that, should be unique. 

The Downoi will be replaced by Erio Kimberly likely or some similar darker Erio rossette like plant.

I allowed the E triandra on the Right side to fill back into the the other rows more than this pic shows.
I will add some more Rotala sunset and L senegalensis to see how they fit in the open section there. 

I just uprooted so it's murky water.











Here's some shrimp attacking a fresh piece of moss wood I added.











Also note the color on the last L. pilosa(next to PVC water changer tip) , it's reddened up like the others almost.


----------



## Overfloater

Tom,

Does this tank have Amano shrimp or just cherries?


----------



## nonconductive

tom that acmella grows like a weed. you might be trimming more than you want to!


----------



## plantbrain

Overfloater said:


> Tom,
> 
> Does this tank have Amano shrimp or just cherries?


Fires and Amano's.

And 5 G elephas, 3 Gold nuggets and a few otto cats. 

I'll add a large school or candy cane tetras or Red Phantoms.


----------



## plantbrain

nonconductive said:


> tom that acmella grows like a weed. you might be trimming more than you want to!


Lizard tail is often used for that same purpose/reason.


----------



## plantbrain

Finally found some nice Ludwgia inclinata red:










The Amcella repens makes a nice Lizard tail substitute. Lizard tail is an often used plant in Europe and in Dutch scapes, but this native Amcella is a nice alternative that many who have used it, frankly have not scaped with it much.
The Erio is assuie type 2, a smaller Erio and it will likely split a few more times and then the individuals will fatten up much like E. cinereum. 
The bright coloration of the L inclinata makes for a nice contrast. It responds well to frequent trimmings and grows quickly. 

There really is not quite enough space, I needed another 3-5 inches longer tank, then fill out the rows thicker and nicer.
Maybe I'll come up with _something_ and a decent solution eventually.


I'd thought and still am..........about replacing the Amcella with Downoi.

I'll have that plant(either) come down and "fan out" in the front, the L inclinata will fill in a bit more, as will Ludwigia pilosa. L. pilosa has become blotchy red on some leaves, I have about 6-8 plantlets coming along also, but they will take a good 4-8 weeks to research the same sizes as the plants here.
The Blotchiness may be from transplanting them a couple times trying them out in other spots, they are sort of like the L. perunesis and the stem is a little fragile and they have similar root systems.










The UG replanting method is the best I've done some far, certainly the best method I've seen and the results are quite nice.
This is roughly 2 weeks after replanting, this use to take 6-8 weeks to get like this.

I moved the Ludwgia "sunset" behind the Erio type 3 Lorax like trees. It grows well and I'm not sure if I plant on keeping it just yet.
It will be difficult to beat up the L inclinata for that coveted spot.


----------



## Centromochlus

Looks great Tom!
Do you ever sell the offspring of the fire reds?


----------



## plantbrain

AzFishKid said:


> Looks great Tom!
> Do you ever sell the offspring of the fire reds?


50 a week on average.

The Elephant noses eat a few every day, but it does not put a dent in the population.

Hopefully the Amcella grows some more, maybe I'll get more, but I like the Downoi also, but the larger leaf contrast looks better with Amcella, but Hygro would be too large etc.

Downoi looks too much like the Erio aussie type II also.


----------



## plantbrain

I need to show how I replant the UG, I think if folks see how it's done, they can have more success and less down time when planting.

I plant it very dense and packed in. It's not hard but goes a little be slow.
Some folks and ADA tend to pack HC like this also.


----------



## plantbrain

The L inclinata kills the spot on the LEFT versus the L senegalnesis. A much better choice vs the senaglnesis plant.

I'm still playing with this section on the Left though. I want to do something a little bit different with the L pilosa and I might(? Are you kidding? I will move some plants around for sure) move some plants around still.


----------



## chad320

Yeah, the L. senegalensis is more of a bicolor plant with Maroon undertones. It would probably make a better transition plant stuck between some bright reds and some bright greens.


----------



## The Gipper

plantbrain said:


> I need to show how I replant the UG, I think if folks see how it's done, they can have more success and less down time when planting.
> 
> I plant it very dense and packed in. It's not hard but goes a little be slow.
> Some folks and ADA tend to pack HC like this also.


Would love to see this, I know others would too


----------



## plantbrain

chad320 said:


> Yeah, the L. senegalensis is more of a bicolor plant with Maroon undertones. It would probably make a better transition plant stuck between some bright reds and some bright greens.


Yep, I took it out already

But you never know till you try it.


----------



## chad320

Have you given Nesea red a shot yet? Its a little brighter red. The leaf shape is like L arcuata tho so it might not fit either. Or Cuphea annagaloidea?


----------



## plantbrain

chad320 said:


> Have you given Nesea red a shot yet? Its a little brighter red. The leaf shape is like L arcuata tho so it might not fit either. Or Cuphea annagaloidea?


I've never seen anyone ever be able to grow it submersed for long, and never have I seen anyone ever offer it for sale from cuttings from the extra growth from submersed plants.

It grows well hydroponically and in emergent conditions. L. breviceps is a better plant that's close. The ONLY reason we even see N .red is because it's being grown and offered by the growers.

Neither of these plants looked decent in that spot however. 
I also had some N crassilus. I could perhaps papmer these plants but I need stuff that will grow relatively well and be adapted to good conditions.

Cuphea annagaloidea is okay, there are still about 10 or more plants to consider...........

But I'm quickly narrowing the actual color scheme down.


----------



## zachary908

I've grown Red Nesaea.. keeping it bright red is another story. Chad, how is the stuff I sent you doing?


----------



## plantbrain

zachary908 said:


> I've grown Red Nesaea.. keeping it bright red is another story.


Me too, even with the light I have........which is 3x more than any ADA lighting.

It'll grow some side shoots, but these never amount to me and after a few months of just sitting........not worth the trouble.


----------



## zachary908

plantbrain said:


> Me too, even with the light I have........which is 3x more than any ADA lighting.
> 
> It'll grow some side shoots, but these never amount to me and after a few months of just sitting........not worth the trouble.


Yup.. I've tried it at work under 4x 6ft VHO lamps and 2x 250w MH.. Still not much results.


----------



## chad320

Yeah, its slow but mines looking great still. Awesome red, but like I said, theres other plants that look similar, that do better.


----------



## plantbrain

chad320 said:


> Yeah, its slow but mines looking great still. Awesome red, but like I said, theres other plants that look similar, that do better.


Talk to me in a year or two, then we will see.

If it does not look decent and you are able to take cuttings and have them look the same and all.........well...............we have plenty of nice red plants that are not nearly as troublesome, it'd be different it was more unique or something.

Still pondering the Left side of the tank.


I will keep the Ludwigia inclinata, it's a nice plant and pretty.

The UG stays, I'm not sure about the Erios or the Downoi, I really like those plants unfortunately.

But finding a home that also makes the overall display look balanced and nice is becoming a toughie.

I tried some of my Buce's in various spots to see what 20-30 of those might look like. 









I added the Downoi back where the Erio assuies are in the pic above.
Not really the look I'm after there either or a row of the Downoi running up where the Amcella is.

So there's not really any good place for the downoi contrast there.
I'd considered moving the downoi to the Tonia lotus blossom row and bring that plant back over to this side.

Another idea is make the Erio patch completely walled off with wood, providing another section in front. This starts to get too small though and the regions are too blocky and small compared to the other side. Perhaps angling the L inclinata more to the left and bring the farthest ends stretched out more going to the opposite direction that the other Rows are going on the Right side , then making a larger green patch between them in a triangle shape.

This will cut into the UG, but only in the middle a little bit.

I might be able to bring the L. pilosa out more into the front then as well.


----------



## waterfaller1

Always an inspiration..:icon_cool


----------



## plantbrain

waterfaller1 said:


> Always an inspiration..:icon_cool


Or a quest for another plant


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> Or a quest for another plant


Ain't that the truth.

I know you like the right side, but what about putting the downoi where the hydrocotyle is? Downoi is too cool of a plant not to be used in this scape. Bright green, stays compact, wavy leaves and oh so pretty...... you have to use it.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Ain't that the truth.
> 
> I know you like the right side, but what about putting the downoi where the hydrocotyle is? Downoi is too cool of a plant not to be used in this scape. Bright green, stays compact, wavy leaves and oh so pretty...... you have to use it.


The contrast is so nice with the Pennywort, I've considered it though.

The leaf size and shape are very nice, not sure I'm ready to go and the density of the pennywort fills that spot well.

It's not hard to switch things around though, this tank is a bit of a *legomatic type of display, switching pieces around.*


But I have a 70 Gal to redo right now.


----------



## waterfaller1

Can we get a clear pic please?


----------



## plantbrain

waterfaller1 said:


> Can we get a clear pic please?


Plenty on this thread already.



















I take pics *after I make the changes*, move plants etc, then .........comment. Since the prior pic is the older layout, the next one is often cloudy since I trim and move things. I could do a few back to back water changes, but I'm not doing all that, my goal is not to produce ultra clear pics, rather, design, horticulture, contrast and trying different things. If you want clear pics, you are welcomed to come here and take pics though:icon_cool
I'll try and see if I can do some after a couple days after the changes.
That will give more settling time.

The tank is much clearer than the pics show and the lighting does tend to wash out when at full blast.
If I take the pics late in the day and do not monkey inside the tank for 2-3 days, this helps.


----------



## gnod

this is seriously such a beautiful tank tom. 

curious but what substrate are you using? any dosing? i'm assuming co2 is in place?


----------



## audioaficionado

Since this thread is about Tom's scaping, I don't mind the cloudiness of the shots. I'd rather see what was just done rather than wait 2 days until it has gotten crystal clear. Thanx for all your pix Tom. Keep 'em coming.


----------



## jgb77

plantbrain;1803027
I take pics [B said:


> after I make the changes[/B], move plants etc, then .........comment. Since the prior pic is the older layout, the next one is often cloudy since I trim and move things. I could do a few back to back water changes, but I'm not doing all that, my goal is not to produce ultra clear pics, rather, design, horticulture, contrast and trying different things. If you want clear pics, you are welcomed to come here and take pics though:icon_cool
> I'll try and see if I can do some after a couple days after the changes.
> That will give more settling time.
> 
> The tank is much clearer than the pics show and the lighting does tend to wash out when at full blast.
> If I take the pics late in the day and do not monkey inside the tank for 2-3 days, this helps.


GH booster doesn't help either, that clouds the water for a few hours as well after adding it on w/c day.
Are you opposed to using Lobelia Cardinalis small form somewhere on the left?
I know that is a dutch type plant, not as exotic/rare as most other sp. you have in there though. Maybe some HYPTIS LORENTZIANA formerly Hemigraphis traian Not that you need more plants in there anyways. Hmm, maybe that's why all my tanks wind up becoming a collectoritis tanks?
John


----------



## plantbrain

Yea, I was thinking about that GH booster cloud just about 2 hours ago.
Here's today, I trimmed then did a good sized water change:











I added Elatine hydropiper, "micro" Gloss.

E. triandra has filled in well and will make a nice bright green rug.

Still got a mess till things grow out more on the Left side.

Water change, takes about 35 min or just enough to clean the prefilter, catch shrimp, clean or move anything around.











E triandra close up










Lobelia is okay, I've had extensive use and used it in the past.
I'm more inclined to go with Downoi for that look. Hyptis is okay, but I like A repens better.
Lizard tail is larger leaf though.

I might reconsider that old school lizard tail.





After more eclectic plants and groupings really, but some are just nice plants even though they do not sell well.


----------



## chris.rivera3

Hey Tom!!! 

Can you take some pictures of the Elatine hydropiper, "micro" Gloss?? I've been searching the forums for that but its not widely available. 

Also, have you had problems with the CPR? any loss of suction? overflow issues?


----------



## plantbrain

chris.rivera3 said:


> Hey Tom!!!
> 
> Can you take some pictures of the Elatine hydropiper, "micro" Gloss?? I've been searching the forums for that but its not widely available.
> 
> Also, have you had problems with the CPR? any loss of suction? overflow issues?


Do a goggle search, I just planted it so it's not going to show well ina FTS.
No issues with the CPR.


----------



## chris.rivera3

I did - I googled this plant months ago and discovered this:

http://www.aquascaperz.com/2010/06/...ng-foreground-plant-with-the-smallest-leaves/

...it has been extremely difficult to track down though...when you trim in the future or decide you're unhappy with the plant i'll be interested 



plantbrain said:


> Do a goggle search, I just planted it so it's not going to show well ina FTS.
> No issues with the CPR.


----------



## plantbrain

chris.rivera3 said:


> I did - I googled this plant months ago and discovered this:
> 
> http://www.aquascaperz.com/2010/06/...ng-foreground-plant-with-the-smallest-leaves/
> 
> ...it has been extremely difficult to track down though...when you trim in the future or decide you're unhappy with the plant i'll be interested


You and about 10 other Indians.


----------



## jnaz

Be sure to stay on top of trimming the triandra. I have found that it likes to grow on top of itself and then the lower portion dies and it uproots. I neglected a tank and now have to replant the entire foreground.


----------



## plantbrain

jnaz said:


> Be sure to stay on top of trimming the triandra. I have found that it likes to grow on top of itself and then the lower portion dies and it uproots. I neglected a tank and now have to replant the entire foreground.


It's easy to mow, I've grown it a number of times in the past.

Sends out seeds and then you end up with plants every where.


----------



## plantbrain

I spread out the Ludwigia inclinata in a 1/2 circle and then removed the Amcella repens and the Erio aussie type II.
I added a new piece of wood to divide the Left up different and planto allow the Elatine hydropiper more coverage and a nice large triangle. 
I am going to try out some Bacopa lanigera next to the L inclinata and the Ludwigia "red", this should make a very bright white green contrast.

If I do not like it, I'll move it behind the main trunk of the driftwood with some poking out on the far left of the wood.
I might use Downoi again in the spot, it feels better and I sold off the nice Downoi crowns and saves a few scraps.

So I can grow them out a bit 1st........then decide in a week or two etc.

The Ludwigia pilosa is acting weird. Likely from being moved too much. I think I'll add some more soil and raise the position up so it's not as crowded.
I'd like to find a better spot for it, but that may not happen now that I'm at the end and am squeezing myself into the final corner.

I did come up with a cool idea for making a vine like look on some of the driftwood, but not sure I'll do that in this tank.


----------



## plantbrain

jnaz said:


> Be sure to stay on top of trimming the triandra. I have found that it likes to grow on top of itself and then the lower portion dies and it uproots. I neglected a tank and now have to replant the entire foreground.


I gave it a trim today, not much, but it's easy to keep it mowed nice a low.


----------



## thefisherman

hi tom, you mentioned adding more soil to raise the position of your plants... whats the best way to do that? 

there are low spots in my 20L that i would love to be able to raise up especially for my rooting plants.. i've always been aprehensive to do so because i was afraid i would stir too much stuff up  

i also have a glass bottom tank i've been hesitant to add substrate too without draining the thing.

your thoughts are always appreciated sir 





- thefisherman


----------



## plantbrain

thefisherman said:


> hi tom, you mentioned adding more soil to raise the position of your plants... whats the best way to do that?
> 
> there are low spots in my 20L that i would love to be able to raise up especially for my rooting plants.. i've always been aprehensive to do so because i was afraid i would stir too much stuff up
> 
> i also have a glass bottom tank i've been hesitant to add substrate too without draining the thing.
> 
> your thoughts are always appreciated sir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - thefisherman


I just soak some ADA As in a tall Big gulp cup for a couple of days, decant off the water.......then submersed into the tank and pour into the spot.

I'll do a water change etc there after a day later.

As long as you do not add A LOT of ADA AS at once, this works fine and the filter/plant uptake can respond to the NH4.

Also, do not do this if the tank is very sparse with plants, do not trim heavy prior etc, you want to max the NH4 uptake for the next 2 weeks, either by plants, bacteria or water changes. Some use zeolite, but I think the latter 3 options are better IMO/IME.


----------



## thefisherman

plantbrain said:


> I just soak some ADA As in a tall Big gulp cup for a couple of days, decant off the water.......then submersed into the tank and pour into the spot.
> 
> I'll do a water change etc there after a day later.
> 
> As long as you do not add A LOT of ADA AS at once, this works fine and the filter/plant uptake can respond to the NH4.
> 
> Also, do not do this if the tank is very sparse with plants, do not trim heavy prior etc, you want to max the NH4 uptake for the next 2 weeks, either by plants, bacteria or water changes. Some use zeolite, but I think the latter 3 options are better IMO/IME.


thanks Tom 


- thefisherman


----------



## ua hua

I really like the looks of the elatine triandra. That is the one foreground plant I haven't tried in my tank yet. I don't see it sold to often probably because of it shipping bad but I may have to try to find some since the weather has been great for shipping right now. To me it looks like the leaf structure is similar to staurogyne repens but staying closer to the substrate. Do you have this stuff seed itself in your tank as I know this is one of the few plants that will seed itself in your tank and can end up in places far from where it was planted.


----------



## plantbrain

Hydrothrix also will go to pot like that also, those are the only 2 plants I'm aware of that do this, it's not actually a seed, rather.... a turion.
The turions from these plants are very small. 

Hydrilla, many Utricularia possess these.

E triandra is much easier to prune than Gloss or Starougyne, scissors are best vs hand pulling/pruning like with Starougyne(my preferred method).
This tank has been instructive in what works best as far as different pruning methods that are best suited for each species.
I've collected E triandra in California in the "wild", actually a treatment site for Hydrilla at the end of an irrigation canal near a winery.

Nice very bright green foreground weed.


----------



## plantbrain

I expanded the Elatine hydropiper and this really brought the Left side together much much better. 

I'll try both Downoi again in the spot, it will need to grow out as I only saved a few measly scraggy plant leftovers. I did expand the Ludwigia inclinata in a nice 1/2 circle arc. This is starting to shape up as this plant is easy to grow out rapidly.



I have some _Bacopa lanigera_ coming in for one of two spots and will try it out in the fromt between the L. inclinata and the L. "red", the bright white (Glaucous) green hairy Bacopa with larger leaves. 
I had this plant back in 2001, been awhile.
If not there, then behind on the far left behind the main trunk of wood.
This will provide nice contrast in either location. 

I also Fissidens another branch to add balance for the other Fissidens branch next to the UG. 

Overall, I'm getting to close to having a semi complete scape. From there, some trims and tidying up.

I'll get some pics in a couple of days. This will better illustrate the coming together of the section.
Not sure in the Bacopa will come in, but you will be able to tell pretty quickly where and how the tank will look overall.

Then it's just some trim timing.


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> Hydrothrix also will go to pot like that also, those are the only 2 plants I'm aware of that do this, it's not actually a seed, rather.... a turion.
> The turions from these plants are very small.


...and then months later you will find it springing up all over your tank. It's a beautiful plant, but good luck getting rid of it if you decide to do so.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> ...and then months later you will find it springing up all over your tank. It's a beautiful plant, but good luck getting rid of it if you decide to do so.


I tend the tank well and Pellia, Fissidens etc do the same thing.
At least I can sell the Elatine.

Riccia and Bladderwort, Caldophora are the worse offenders.


----------



## zachary908

Tom, I'm not great at counting, but I think I sent you like 20 stems instead of the 15 . :hihi:


----------



## Psybuster

oh i like how the e.triandra is turning out...i tried growing that 7 years ago and had horrible horrible melting


----------



## plantbrain

zachary908 said:


> Tom, I'm not great at counting, but I think I sent you like 20 stems instead of the 15 . :hihi:


Good, I'll have a home for it in a couple of spots.


----------



## plantbrain

Psybuster said:


> oh i like how the e.triandra is turning out...i tried growing that 7 years ago and had horrible horrible melting


If you look at how I handled Gloss in this tank a few pages back, that will be the same for this plant, but after trimming, it looks better and it has a brighter green color.


----------



## plantbrain

The Ludwigia inclinata on the Left is coming along nicely.
Another 2 weeks and it'll be where I want.

New E hydropiper in the front should be a nicer alternative to HC. 

I could also go with mini Erio cinereum there as well.

The downoi spot you can see now what I had in mind. 
I might add the Bacopa lanigera there, that's the idea anyways, the contrast between the Bacopa and the Ludwigia Red and the orangy inclinata is a nice effect. I may end up placing the Bacopa in the rear some where off to the far Left also if I decide on the Downoi.
On the far Right, I'll allow the Starougyne "purple" to grow out some and then make a small patch of it to separate from the Tonina lotus blossom, the colors are a bit similar, so this will add some division between them.

I also have some mini pellia I need to see if I can add to help divide things between the groups, or I might add that to the wood somewhere.

The Mini Pellia would also make an effective barrier between the 3 foreground weeds that tend to be bright green.


----------



## MyToesAreCrazy

Great looking tank as always. Is that the Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides plant in the front right corner?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

you know. i've never seen a pic. how is the outflow positioned IN the tank. i can see it above water but what goes on underneath? im curious as to how the flow is generated in the tank since flow dynamics are so important to good nutrient transport which u clearly have


----------



## Ach1Ll3sH33L

HD Blazingwolf said:


> you know. i've never seen a pic. how is the outflow positioned IN the tank. i can see it above water but what goes on underneath? im curious as to how the flow is generated in the tank since flow dynamics are so important to good nutrient transport which u clearly have


look on the previous page, theres a photo where the tank is drained that shows its position. I know at one time there was a vortec powerhead below the outflow, though i dont see it anymore, unless its covered by plants.


----------



## plantbrain

Ach1Ll3sH33L said:


> look on the previous page, theres a photo where the tank is drained that shows its position. I know at one time there was a vortec powerhead below the outflow, though i dont see it anymore, unless its covered by plants.


Vortech has been removed, the out flow from the filter is just a 90 degree el PVC. 

Nothing special, water goes across the diagonal for the most part.


----------



## plantbrain

MyToesAreCrazy said:


> Great looking tank as always. Is that the Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides plant in the front right corner?


Yep it's been hacked back but in 2 weeks, it'll be a large clump.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> you know. i've never seen a pic. how is the outflow positioned IN the tank. i can see it above water but what goes on underneath? im curious as to how the flow is generated in the tank since flow dynamics are so important to good nutrient transport which u clearly have


Well, CO2 mostly.

A large wet dry filter also sure helps, good care removing unwanted leaves and loose stuff, cleaning the pre filter 1-2x a week. This tank has a lot of extra leaves floating around after trims. Filter gets them and I net the rest.

You can see a few leaves floating, but not much.


----------



## plantbrain

The Bacopa lanigera will straighten up and become larger and whitish.

Just redid and moved some things, so it's cloudy.


----------



## sketch804

IMO this setup you are running right now is the best this tank has ever looked! I love the layout right now, even after seeing all the different changes throughout many months this one really sticks out to me! Though I did like the Downoi/Erio's that was below the middle of the driftwood, but eh, either way it's looking pretty amazing! and nice up close shots also, we don't usually get to see those!

Do you find what I believe is Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Pantanal' a difficult plant to deal with provided CO2, Lights, and Ferts are kept at a good level?? Just wondering because I am really interested in that plant and the 'cuba' version also..I will be buying a few stems of this really soon..This is all coming from someone who can keep R. Macandra, make it grow like a weed, but not get the desired color out of it I want..It is usually on the lighter shade of Red instead of the intense red that you and people like OVT, and a couple others I have seen achieve..Thanks!


----------



## plantbrain

I can still trade out and move the Bacopa to the rear, fill in the space with Erio or Downoi etc.

It is a bit of a lego type set up where I can move things around easily.

Most of these plants are not harder than any other........Erio type 3 would be the hardest species in the tank I'd say.


----------



## sketch804

plantbrain said:


> Most of these plants are not harder than any other........Erio type 3 would be the hardest species in the tank I'd say.


Why do you say that Erio type 3 is harder than most? just wondering..I ask these few questions because of looking around and reading about different difficulties on keeping certain of plants and what not..


----------



## plantbrain

It really does not like being moved, it seems to require higher CO2, it is prone to hair algae, leaf loss etc.


----------



## The Gipper

Hi Tom
On a previous salt tank 15 years ago I had a wet dry, and back in the day I always thought it best to put overflow on one end and return on the other, pushing water towards the return. Notice on
your's you have return next to overflow, making it nice that the tubing etc is all on one side and next to each other for a cleaner look. Think I'll do that on a new 190 getting shipped to me this week


----------



## plantbrain

The Gipper said:


> Hi Tom
> On a previous salt tank 15 years ago I had a wet dry, and back in the day I always thought it best to put overflow on one end and return on the other, pushing water towards the return. Notice on
> your's you have return next to overflow, making it nice that the tubing etc is all on one side and next to each other for a cleaner look. Think I'll do that on a new 190 getting shipped to me this week


Well, there is the single end type of thing, but also, the circulation is circular..........making a full loop before heading back to the overflow.

If the tank was narrow and long, then the set up you had makes more sense, but not in a wide tank so much.


----------



## 2in10

Looking fantastic, great Dutch like look and colors


----------



## @[email protected]

love the CLEAR pictures. 

the glosso-like plant is the elantine? it looks fantastic. i cant wait to see it as a full carpet.


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> love the CLEAR pictures.
> 
> the glosso-like plant is the elantine? it looks fantastic. i cant wait to see it as a full carpet.


With less light, the tank is clearer looking on the photo's.
Also, given a day or two after restructuring helps.

Yes, the shrimps are on Elatine, one is triandra and the other is the hydropiper. I may end up going back to Erio cinerum but the mini type. I'll see and allow the E hydropiper to run it's course for a few weeks/months.

I redid the 70 Gal manzigumi today and tried a few new methods, I did not spend much time positioning the wood , in fact, I barely gave it consideration.
I did slate a few pieces to keep them from moving, but this is purely mechanical scaping aspects.

I also added a netted bag full of 3/4 lava rock to fluff up the middle so I did not have to use 2 more ADA As 9 liter bags. There's about a 10 Gal tank's worth of lava, I used about 60% of the ADA As from the original tank since I was creating a much steeper taller slope than the 120 gal here.

I'll put a few teasers up tonight.


----------



## radioman

This is one of the most beautiful tanks on the forum right now.


----------



## plantbrain

Side shot, this side will have a few changes and as the L pilosa grows out more, I'll make a few minor changes to tidy up some. I may just pull the M matogrossense up towards the trunk of the wood more and run some other shade tolerant red/yellow weed behind that










Or, put the Bacopa lanigera in that hole.


----------



## ua hua

Where did the buces go? I really like the look of the tank from that angle with the l. pilosa and h. araguaia. How does the l. pilosa do after trimming? Does it spilt and form two sideshoots or is it a top and replant?


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Where did the buces go? I really like the look of the tank from that angle with the l. pilosa and h. araguaia. How does the l. pilosa do after trimming? Does it spilt and form two sideshoots or is it a top and replant?


They are outside in a tray with a lid, ADA AS and water.
A few other plants as well.

It's warmer here now so they are going to grow out more till I figure out what I want to do with them just yet. They will fatten up and grow larger.

I have a few options, above or below the water.........and the new Manzigumi display also has some nice darker spots for them. No rush.

The L pilosa can be topped and then the bottom will form side shoots, I have some and the Erio aussie type II in my emergent 60p ADA tank, and I also added some to the outdoor tray.

Plus what you see here(about 9 tops).


----------



## Phil Edwards

Looking great Tom! I wish I had room for a tank like that. Apartments are kinda small here in Japan.


----------



## plantbrain

Phil Edwards said:


> Looking great Tom! I wish I had room for a tank like that. Apartments are kinda small here in Japan.


You are not living in one of those "tubes" are you?

One of the reasons aquariums and gardens are popular is because of such limited space.


----------



## farmhand

Beautiful tank. roud: By having surface agitation as you do, how much more co2 do you use? Do you make other adjustments because of this?


----------



## Phil Edwards

No, I'm not living in a "tube".  I've got a very nice, if small, apartment. Actually, it's just right. Your tank would take up most of my living room though.


----------



## talontsiawd

My favorite pics are the ones that show the reflectors on your lights. Super jealous.


----------



## plantbrain

Phil Edwards said:


> No, I'm not living in a "tube".  I've got a very nice, if small, apartment. Actually, it's just right. Your tank would take up most of my living room though.


I saw a living room like that, he had a 450 Gal tank is a rather small living room........looked nice, no room for TV, no need.

You planning on coming back? Or did you get kicked out of the US? hehe


----------



## plantbrain

farmhand said:


> Beautiful tank. roud: By having surface agitation as you do, how much more co2 do you use? Do you make other adjustments because of this?


I add more likely, how much? Hard to tell.

Since CO2 is not independent and O2 is not either.............if I stop adding current and the O2 drops, the CO2 and plant release cannot make up for that.

So results could vary widely.


----------



## plantbrain

Elatine hydropiper is growing nicely now, and fully rooted...which means it's spreading......

L inclinata on the Left side is going crazy with growth, the L pilosa continues to grow in nicer and has a nice copper/metal rust/red color. Elatine triandra is growing like mad. Just 3 weeks in.

I'm going to let the plants grow up a bit here and there to show how fast the growth is.

Some I have to trim no matter what though.


----------



## plantbrain

Nice new growth is coming in faster than I anticipated.

A little over 3 weeks worth of growth from the E triandra, not bad.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> Well, CO2 mostly.
> 
> A large wet dry filter also sure helps, good care removing unwanted leaves and loose stuff, cleaning the pre filter 1-2x a week. This tank has a lot of extra leaves floating around after trims. Filter gets them and I net the rest.
> 
> You can see a few leaves floating, but not much.


Ur the reason i bought a wet dry sum:icon_winkp and ill never go back. The benefits are almost immediately noticeable


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Ur the reason i bought a wet dry sum:icon_winkp and ill never go back. The benefits are almost immediately noticeable


I used them on my first planted tanks years ago:










This was from 1995.


----------



## skrapsessej

^ Whats that emmersed growing plant? My LFS has that exact one growing in that exact same spot also.


----------



## plantbrain

skrapsessej said:


> ^ Whats that emmersed growing plant? My LFS has that exact one growing in that exact same spot also.


Dirty rats copied me eh?

Plain old pennywort.

But placed here these days:


----------



## farmhand

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Ur the reason i bought a wet dry sum:icon_winkp and ill never go back. The benefits are almost immediately noticeable


What benefits other than easy to clean are you referring to?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

well. more oxygen to fish, plants, and bacteria. which means bacteria are more efficient and fish are less stressed. faster conversion of ammonia to nitrate reduces potential algae issues. also the efficient breakdown of organics into simpler compounds is beneficial to plants and clean water

my whole ecosystem has become much healthier. to the point where it is visibly noticeable

supposedly algae can be deterred by extra oxygen i nthe water.
i believe it. i almost had a black algae farm with LOW LOW light and rediculously high c02. i add a sump and poof its almsot all gone


----------



## audioaficionado

I'm going with a sump for my next large tank for all the reasons stated above.


----------



## farmhand

Not bad mouthing sumps here. Just questioning how they would add more o2 than surface movement. (Sorry if this is highjacking your thread Tom.) Just looking for the truth. 


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## plantbrain

farmhand said:


> Not bad mouthing sumps here. Just questioning how they would add more o2 than surface movement. (Sorry if this is highjacking your thread Tom.) Just looking for the truth.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


More surface area and no surface scum.

Where would the water with the least CO2 occur in any planted tank?

Surface mostly.


----------



## @[email protected]

HD Blazingwolf said:


> well. more oxygen to fish, plants, and bacteria. which means bacteria are more efficient and fish are less stressed. faster conversion of ammonia to nitrate reduces potential algae issues. also the efficient breakdown of organics into simpler compounds is beneficial to plants and clean water
> 
> my whole ecosystem has become much healthier. to the point where it is visibly noticeable
> 
> supposedly algae can be deterred by extra oxygen i nthe water.
> i believe it. i almost had a black algae farm with LOW LOW light and rediculously high c02. i add a sump and poof its almsot all gone


now im not an expert on different algae species by any means, but i do know that there are many algae species that are polytrophic (act both heterotrophically and autotrophically), and can feed off of both photosynthesis and decaying organics (some algae derive the majority of their food heterotrophically like oodinum, and some even are entirely heterotrophic). so presumably, if your bacteria are healthier, and eat more of the organics in your tank, there are less for the algae.
its more likely that good O2 promotes competition for the organics, meaning the algae gets less food, as opposed to the O2 actually hurting the algae in any normal dose (as plants and algae themselves produce large amounts of O2 in their tissues).


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

@[email protected] said:


> now im not an expert on different algae species by any means, but i do know that there are many algae species that are polytrophic (act both heterotrophically and autotrophically), and can feed off of both photosynthesis and decaying organics (some algae derive the majority of their food heterotrophically like oodinum, and some even are entirely heterotrophic). so presumably, if your bacteria are healthier, and eat more of the organics in your tank, there are less for the algae.
> its more likely that good O2 promotes competition for the organics, meaning the algae gets less food, as opposed to the O2 actually hurting the algae in any normal dose (as plants and algae themselves produce large amounts of O2 in their tissues).


u are probably 100% correct. and i would agree completely with what you just said


----------



## plantbrain

Well no need t be ploytrophic, all the spores need to do is respond to decaying organic matter.

But you need light, warmth, and decaying matter and something good to grow on.

It's not just one thing.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Yeah Tom, I'm coming back eventually.  

I'm with you on the whole sump thing. I won't use a canister on anything large enough to have a sump any more; if for no other reason than they're so much easier to clean. Are you still rocking the trash can sump? 

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## lbacha

Phil Edwards said:


> Yeah Tom, I'm coming back eventually.
> 
> I'm with you on the whole sump thing. I won't use a canister on anything large enough to have a sump any more; if for no other reason than they're so much easier to clean. Are you still rocking the trash can sump?
> 
> Cheers,
> Phil


I like the trash can sump I have a big tupperware plastic dog food container as my sump on my 75g I love improvised sumps.

Len


----------



## plantbrain

Phil Edwards said:


> Yeah Tom, I'm coming back eventually.
> 
> I'm with you on the whole sump thing. I won't use a canister on anything large enough to have a sump any more; if for no other reason than they're so much easier to clean. Are you still rocking the trash can sump?
> 
> Cheers,
> Phil


I have a nice Mame over flow(all glass weird looking thing) on my 60p ADa tank and a wet/dry since the tank is not CO2 enriched.

I do a much nicer light/tank/stand and filter these days:wink:
No longer poor.


----------



## plantbrain

lbacha said:


> I like the trash can sump I have a big tupperware plastic dog food container as my sump on my 75g I love improvised sumps.
> 
> Len


Yes, they work nicely, I made all sorts of things back in the day, but now I like things nicer and can seal them up much easier than the DIY projects.

This sump is easy to view, clean and use etc, but cost 100$.

DIY nice looking Prefilters can be done, but I bought those also.


----------



## JoraaÑ

plantbrain said:


> You are not living in one of those "tubes" are you?
> 
> One of the reasons aquariums and gardens are popular is because of such limited space.


Seems like you are using Aquablue bulbs as well..are you Tom?


----------



## plantbrain

Joraan said:


> Seems like you are using Aquablue bulbs as well..are you Tom?


No, just ATI blue specials, they are like a 12-14K range bulb.
Popular for reef folks, but there is a purple coral bulb in there also, then a few red plant bulbs and a few GE starcoat those are the best white bulb around regardless of the $$$.

I have some URI red sun and then some Green bulbs in storage, the red sun is freaky, I use 1 in my 180 gal, looks strange in here for some reason.

I use the bulbs in these combos for reflection properties, not for growth really.
But a nice mix of colors also helps growth I'm fairly confident, but have little evidence for support.


----------



## plantbrain

Here is a pic of the Ealtine, which the triandra was plants about 3 weeks ago now, as you can see, growth is impressive. The E. hydropiper has also grown in nicely........and will form a solid rug in another week or two I'd estimate.
E hydropiper is a nice new HC alternative so I'm excited about it and I have a good sized patch.

I was worried it might do well due to higher temps some had mentioned it was a cold water plant only etc. That does not seem to be the case. 












Here's a high res slice shot.


----------



## zachary908

Good stuff, Tom! Things are looking great as always! Is the bacopa looking good in the overall scape?


----------



## JoraaÑ

Asked you cause I'm also using the same 1..Cool to watch tank from Distance. Mixed with Aquaflora(Giesemann) and coincidental GE Starcoat 6500K as well. I have to say with additional ATI blue specials..growth rate is faster...lots of folks won't believe but it is what it is.


----------



## plantbrain

zachary908 said:


> Good stuff, Tom! Things are looking great as always! Is the bacopa looking good in the overall scape?


It's looking good as long as I keep it short.
It's a real fast grower.

Not sure if I'll keep it there, or move the rear.

If I keep the L inclinata, I can add downoi and move it to the rear.

If I remove the inclinata and fill that spot in with L pilosa, then the Bacopa likely will stay etc.

Not sure yet, but the Bacopa can be placed in a few spots in the rear also.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> This sump is easy to view, clean and use etc, but cost 100$.


That's cheap. Where pray tell did you find that price?

Have you tried the T5 HO offerings from ZooMed? They always had a good reputation for their T8 bulbs back in the day and their T5 HO bulbs look to be the same color offerings from back then. They're pretty cheap too at about $11.00 / bulb and they're also made in Ger-many (said like Jeremy Clarkson) just like the ATIs and Giesemanns.

I think you guys are on to something sticking one or two "blue" bulbs in there. I'm currently running 50/50 Giesemann Midday (my personal favorite white bulb, though I've not tried the starcoats yet) and Giesemann Aquaflora. The colors are really nice, but I might try putting a blue bulb over my foreground area for better penetration to the substrate.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> That's cheap. Where pray tell did you find that price?
> 
> Have you tried the T5 HO offerings from ZooMed? They always had a good reputation for their T8 bulbs back in the day and their T5 HO bulbs look to be the same color offerings from back then. They're pretty cheap too at about $11.00 / bulb and they're also made in Ger-many (said like Jeremy Clarkson) just like the ATIs and Giesemanns.
> 
> I think you guys are on to something sticking one or two "blue" bulbs in there. I'm currently running 50/50 Giesemann Midday (my personal favorite white bulb, though I've not tried the starcoats yet) and Giesemann Aquaflora. The colors are really nice, but I might try putting a blue bulb over my foreground area for better penetration to the substrate.


Got a second's CPR off ebay, you can find them used of off Reef Central, Craig's list etc. I look for large capacity and enough space to add plenty of sponge blocks, and a top that I can duct sealed easily. Brand really does not matter, construction, thickness and design does.

I place a red bub 1st, then a blue, then a white, pur's/Red sun's go in the middle somewhere since they are strange, then the same trick in the back.

You need 6-8 bulbs to do this decently, but you are not going to run full power or you do only for 3-4 hours. Then low light.

I have a set of Zoomed lights, the red Sun max plant bulbs are nicer than many others, the Aquafloras are nice also. I use the Zoomeds on the 180/70, but not this tank.


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> Got a second's CPR off ebay, you can find them used of off Reef Central, Craig's list etc. I look for large capacity and enough space to add plenty of sponge blocks, and a top that I can duct sealed easily. Brand really does not matter, construction, thickness and design does.
> 
> I place a red bub 1st, then a blue, then a white, pur's/Red sun's go in the middle somewhere since they are strange, then the same trick in the back.
> 
> You need 6-8 bulbs to do this decently, but you are not going to run full power or you do only for 3-4 hours. Then low light.
> 
> I have a set of Zoomed lights, the red Sun max plant bulbs are nicer than many others, the Aquafloras are nice also. I use the Zoomeds on the 180/70, but not this tank.


No, I'm definitely not running full power all day long. It's an ADA 90-P with an ATI Sunpower 4 x 39 watt fixture. I run 2 bulbs for 10 hours and all 4 bulbs for 3 hours. I was thinking of doing the blue bulb in the front, two whites and a red such as the Aqua Flora.

How big is that Elatine compared to gussonei? Is it the same size or still a little bigger?


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> No, I'm definitely not running full power all day long. It's an ADA 90-P with an ATI Sunpower 4 x 39 watt fixture. I run 2 bulbs for 10 hours and all 4 bulbs for 3 hours. I was thinking of doing the blue bulb in the front, two whites and a red such as the Aqua Flora.
> 
> How big is that Elatine compared to gussonei? Is it the same size or still a little bigger?


I'd say smaller/same size.

I got some many years ago from Stephen from Malta. 
I think folks should try it again if it can be sourced.

I grow Gloss all year logn outside and that species should also, E. triandra is found here locally also in irrigation canals, but it's cheaper for me to buy some here vs the gas to drive up where I know it is at.

With 4 bulbs, I'd use 1 GE starcoat, 1 Zoomed plant, 1 ATI blue special, 1 Coralife Colormax. Reds on the outside, blues and white in the middle, the 10 hour cycle should have 1 red(Zoomed plant or the colormax) and the GE.

These are insanely bright fixtures. 2w/gal is like 5-6W/gal of old school easily.


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> E. triandra is found here locally also in irrigation canals, but it's cheaper for me to buy some here vs the gas to drive up where I know it is at.


Did you ever try the local stuff? As I'm sure you well know often times the same species grows very differently from different localities. For instance, that Rotala 'Sunset' is almost certainly ramosior. I've collected ramosior here in MD several times and it grows green and stays green no matter what.



plantbrain said:


> With 4 bulbs, I'd use 1 GE starcoat, 1 Zoomed plant, 1 ATI blue special, 1 Coralife Colormax. Reds on the outside, blues and white in the middle, the 10 hour cycle should have 1 red(Zoomed plant or the colormax) and the GE.
> 
> These are insanely bright fixtures. 2w/gal is like 5-6W/gal of old school easily.


Indeed they are. I had a Tek fixture before this one and I thought that was bright. The ATIs have much less spillage IMO. Since I already have 2 red and 2 white bulbs I may just swap 1 white for a blue special and do 4 different types when it's time to replace them all in 6 months or so. I like the idea of trying to hit the full wavelengths by picking bulbs that spike in slightly different ranges.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> Did you ever try the local stuff? As I'm sure you well know often times the same species grows very differently from different localities. For instance, that Rotala 'Sunset' is almost certainly ramosior. I've collected ramosior here in MD several times and it grows green and stays green no matter what.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed they are. I had a Tek fixture before this one and I thought that was bright. The ATIs have much less spillage IMO. Since I already have 2 red and 2 white bulbs I may just swap 1 white for a blue special and do 4 different types when it's time to replace them all in 6 months or so. I like the idea of trying to hit the full wavelengths by picking bulbs that spike in slightly different ranges.


Yes, I have some pics like the 120 Gal here with the local stuff, same thing.
It does not look anything like it does in our tanks, it's tiny and very nice looking in nature/manmade water ways.

Same for Veronica, gorgeous plant in streams and rivers, ugly ratty green plant in our tanks.

I mix and match the bulbs for my own personal color choice, but this likely has some positive influence in growth as well. Hard to assess.


----------



## plantbrain

I'd left the Tonina alone for a 3 weeks and was happy after I trimmed it. 
Plenty of extra plants:










These are easily 2x larger than what I got and 3-4x larger and more side shoots. The normal type does not form the side shoots are much as this variety.
You can see there is no yellowing of leaves all the way down, even in a densely planted group.




I cut a thick 5x 10" sod from the Elatine triandra:










Then thinned out the rear a little and replanted those stems in front to give a sloped appearance. This worked well, but I could easily mow the Et and it would grow back nicely that way also, but be harder to sell a bunch of loose little bits.


----------



## zachary908

Nice Tonina, Tom! I need to get selling...


----------



## plantbrain

If you look back a couple of pages for the Tonina lotus blossom, this is all I had:










I'd challenge anyone to grow what I have now from this above in 2 months.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

invariably.. someone would cheat.. LOL


----------



## zchauvin

plantbrain said:


> Dirty rats copied me eh?
> 
> Plain old pennywort.
> 
> But placed here these days:


If I attempted to do this with a very large anubias plant my lfs has for sale, would I have to acclimate it or something. It is being grown fully under water and Id like to have just a part of it (roots) hanging down into the water.


----------



## crazydaz

Hmmm.....I might take you up on that challenge, Tom.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> invariably.. someone would cheat.. LOL


Such motives often end up hanging the perpetrator at some point, they lie and then have to remember the lie or risk getting caught cheating. It's a fool's game, smarter/much more productive to learn how to grow plants better :hihi:

If I do not lie, then I do not have to remember anything:icon_idea


----------



## DennisSingh

This tank is bomb tom. I love the species you have in it and the growth. I sure hope you don't get rotala sunset.



plantbrain said:


> If you look back a couple of pages for the Tonina lotus blossom, this is all I had:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd challenge anyone to grow what I have now from this above in 2 months.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> Such motives often end up hanging the perpetrator at some point, they lie and then have to remember the lie or risk getting caught cheating. It's a fool's game, smarter/much more productive to learn how to grow plants better :hihi:
> 
> If I do not lie, then I do not have to remember anything:icon_idea


 
EH that's an evenuallity
i was thinking more along the lines of setting a small 1 gallon tank up. blowing it full of c02 and nutrients and giving it 2000 PAR

that's cheating


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> EH that's an evenuallity
> i was thinking more along the lines of setting a small 1 gallon tank up. blowing it full of c02 and nutrients and giving it 2000 PAR
> 
> that's cheating


If you can keep it balanced, I would have a tough time.
This is about as fast as I can push without issues.

Many might buy more stems from someone else. Then claim look at all the stems I produced.

Many do emergently grown plants for this reason, no CO2 needed.


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> If you look back a couple of pages for the Tonina lotus blossom, this is all I had:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd challenge anyone to grow what I have now from this above in 2 months.


I'll take that challenge, but I'm putting my money on you :hihi:


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> I'll take that challenge, but I'm putting my money on you :hihi:


The other normal type grows fast, but does not branch as well.


----------



## plantbrain

I am likely going to change some of the main rows this weekend, time for a change and to move some species to the rear and replace with more and more eclectic nicer growth forms etc.

I was talking with Antbug today and the plants in one row simply got crowded..........it was not light, we measured it, and it's not ferts or KH. Crowding is about all I could figure. So I'll move that one to where there is more space and replace that section with something else.

I also got some Rotala sunset from Antbug that appeared stunted about 1/2 the size. I had some prior and it grew very well and nice. The person I got it from, Aaron, suggested it does not do well in rich water column and is picky. So Antbug's tap water is the same as mine, he doses the same as well, light is less and the CO2 likely also. So the test will quickly answer the question does R sunset grow well in rich water column ferts?
Antbug's plants are smaller, about 1/2 the size but still look nice.
A simple replacement test will see if it has anything to do with the tap, ferts etc.

The light and CO2 are different though. Current and filtration etc are also different.


I might get rid of the Rotala macrandra and replace it with this species as folks like and will buy it, but R macrandra is cheap and most LFS's carry it for 2-3 $ for a big bunch.
This tank is also a working farm. So those plants need to pull their weight also.


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> I also got some Rotala sunset from Antbug that appeared stunted about 1/2 the size. I had some prior and it grew very well and nice. The person I got it from, Aaron, suggested it does not do well in rich water column and is picky. So Antbug's tap water is the same as mine, he doses the same as well, light is less and the CO2 likely also. So the test will quickly answer the question does R sunset grow well in rich water column ferts?
> Antbug's plants are smaller, about 1/2 the size but still look nice.
> A simple replacement test will see if it has anything to do with the tap, ferts etc.


I think you mentioned somewhere in this thread that you dose KNO3/KH2PO4- 2-3x a week at 15ppm/5ppm per dose. How much of this is used up by the next dose? In other words, if you test your water column on a given day what readings do you get? 

How much trace do you dose? I suspect trace dosing is the bigger variable for dosing. Some plants need tons of traces to look their best. 

I consider low water column ferts to be about 5 ppm or less of N and 1 ppm or less of P. 

I am curious to see if it matters. The nice thing about doing it your way is no extra K is needed as there should be plenty in all of that KNO3 and KH2PO4.

It's too bad your KH isn't higher as I still stand by that being an important factor i.e. lower being better such as in yours and my tanks.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> I think you mentioned somewhere in this thread that you dose KNO3/KH2PO4- 2-3x a week at 15ppm/5ppm per dose. How much of this is used up by the next dose? In other words, if you test your water column on a given day what readings do you get?


There's also ADA AS as the sediment, so there's some reduction in uptake from the water column, but 45ppm a week of NO3 and 15ppm of PO4.........do you think ANY aquarium can use that much and drive it to zero?
This is a lot.

Do you think that going from say 15-20ppm to zero every 2-3 days is stable and condusive to good growth and stability?

I do not measure the NO3 and PO4 day to day, I do dose with known amounts that I measured prior with max uptake rates, these are roughly 4ppm per day. This does not factor in any sediment based ferts.

Nor does it factor in all the food I add.

Does the uptake change? I'm sure it does week to week, but NH4 is added for fish amd shrimp as food, so that likely is running about 0.5ppm per day, and the max uptake for most tanks might run 0.8ppm for NH4, maybe 1ppm on a good day(eg water change day).

My assumptions are certainly on the high end here for N and P.
I've dosed leaner in the past and measured carefully, these ranges of uptake for this tank are pretty safe in the upper ranges.



> How much trace do you dose? I suspect trace dosing is the bigger variable for dosing. Some plants need tons of traces to look their best.


Funny, folks go either way on this one, I agree with heavy trace dosing.
But when I started out, I adjusted all the parameter as I increased light , I increased CO2, I increase NPK, and....I increased Traces.

I rationalized that with high light, good plant growth...........that all other tanks would not be limited, and I'd have independence from nutrients.
This is a much safer assumption.

If your main source of N and P are the sediments, then traces to the water column will make a larger impact. Still, the trace concentration in the ADA As is virtually unchanged 18 months or more, and likely last a good 10 years, Diana Walstad also made this point for using soil.

My dosing is roughly 0.4ppm 3-4x a week of Fe as proxy for all traces using a mix of CMS+BTPA:FeGluconate 3:1:1 by volume.

I dose this same amount to the 180 Gal and other tanks.

Those tanks have about 1/2-1/3rd the light. This is where the questions start.



> I consider low water column ferts to be about 5 ppm or less of N and 1 ppm or less of P.


This is fine particularly for lower lighting(which is where any comparative analysis should start) and perhaps even higher light systems, but growth will be slowed, some might like that slowing also. 

Such a tank will become N limited more strongly than P limited which the plants have better adaption to limitation. This assumes no sediment sources.



> I am curious to see if it matters. The nice thing about doing it your way is no extra K is needed as there should be plenty in all of that KNO3 and KH2PO4.


I was the one who advocated this and not using any K2SO4 for adding K+(but it's in the GH booster) maybe 12-15 years ago on a question from Steve Dixon who wondered "don't we get enough K+ from KNO3 alone?"

One less thing to dose.

I think the trace thing is subtle but does produce nicer growth, the same is true with foliar sprays and container horticulture in terrestrial plants. Which is to say 99% of aquatic plants grown in commercial production. 



> It's too bad your KH isn't higher as I still stand by that being an important factor i.e. lower being better such as in yours and my tanks.


I agree with the alkalinity being a large factor for Rotala. I've had hard, medium and soft tap waters and even jamming a ton of CO2/light etc etc......some species still did not do optimally.

At what ranges? I do not think this is a clear on/off ppm of KH. More a gradual change. However, if someone is able to grow a bunch of species over time in high KH tap water, I'll eat these words:thumbsup:
But I've not seem that yet and been looking.

I might not be able to do it, but someone else certainly may.
That's the way this stuff works.

Good tap water is also why ADA and some other folks have had good success and why the SF group does well also, some places have some PO4 in the tap also and this helps a lot. That's why my plants grew so well vs the SF tap water folks, my tap was loaded and I dosed lean water column PMDD back then. PO4 started around 1ppm and drops to about 0 after 5-6 days.

I did not know it..........and everyone started testing my tap and tank water.
I had no clue.

But i was adding more Ferts/traces and then adding 2x as much CO2 and then some(more like 40-50ppm). Looking back, many things are still similar.

I will say it is EXTREMELY unlikely that any aquarium will consume as much as this tank regarding traces, N, P. I also tend to do 2x a week large water changes since I muck around and move plant groups. So the ppm's tend to stay pretty narrow and close. I do not find much difference if I dose 2 or 3x. Traces are more subtle but if I say did not dose for 4-7 days, I'm still fine.

My point is not so much less is not good, rather, that dosing a higher ppm is not detrimental. There is no risk if the other parameters are independent. 
This frees me to test and manipulate things like light and CO2, which are more interesting to me. 

I tested CO2 for a long time with this tank. And the light is on going, both with spectra of different bulb types and intensities. 

Can you guess what the PAR reads are in this tank at the surface, at mid and bottom levels? Antbug was freaking.

This is at 100% full power though. Which in old school measure is 3.6 W/gal.
The ATI's with the dim computer are so cool.


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> There's also ADA AS as the sediment, so there's some reduction in uptake from the water column, but 45ppm a week of NO3 and 15ppm of PO4.........do you think ANY aquarium can use that much and drive it to zero?
> This is a lot.
> 
> Do you think that going from say 15-20ppm to zero every 2-3 days is stable and condusive to good growth and stability?
> 
> I do not measure the NO3 and PO4 day to day, I do dose with known amounts that I measured prior with max uptake rates, these are roughly 4ppm per day. This does not factor in any sediment based ferts.


I wasn't inferring that the macro levels go to zero after one day. That would be nuts. It was just a question to see how much of those nutrients are used by the plants in a day. I'm not out for an argument man, just a discussion. :icon_cool

So is the theory behind having way more N and P then they need similar to Ca needs in that the availability must be higher than the need? I know Ca uptake is only something like 0.3 ppm / day, but you could never get away with levels in the water column that low. 

I agree about the trace dosing, though the results I've seen are often more than subtle when it comes to red plants. A lot of people under-dose them IMO; especially iron.


----------



## plantbrain

Hi Aaron,
These are rhetorical questions, they come off argumentative I suppose on line, but they are just light hearted and curiosity based, like two friends talking about their tanks in person at someone' home. They are just questions perhaps we should ask as hobbyists seeking some answers and seeing what can figure out. I use to test NO3 and PO4 a lot.

I really do not any more.

Once I found the maximum uptake rate of 3-4ppm of NO3, I no longer needed to test further because I knew the upper bound. This means I no longer need to test for monitoring. I just dose that rate(daily or 2-3x a week etc and a tad more just in case) and I have no issues to worry about with NO3 becoming limiting. Sediment? Great, I have another long term source and the NO3 in the water column will prevent limitation also, I have back up. Fish waste? Additional back up. Large water change: back up if anything builds up.

I do large water changes to get rid of the haze and muck from moving things around. I do not do this in the 180 gal and the roots are extremely well established there. Clarity is very high and fewer water changes are needed.
The WC's have other benefits for gardening than nutrient management though. I can slowly and progressively reduce the dosing rate down if I chose and find the critical point by watching the plants. This is more of what I want to know really for my routine and tank, not an absolute ppm.......so you can skin this cat 2 ways there, use test kits and modeling/water changes with the plants, or just the plants and eyeballing it. So ?I tell folks non limiting is 2 tsp 2-3 x aweek, or ........dosing 3-4 ppm a day etc. 


In your 2 nd point, yes, exactly. Same with K+, Ca, Mg, Fe, etc........Folks seem to fret and obsess with N and P, sometimes Fe, Fe can go either way. 
Some view excess with extremely worry, caution, it'll cause fish health issues or leads to thread algae. ADA and similar methods have suggested richer Fe, so this myth is reduced. 
I'm not sure why so much emphasis is placed on excess NPK, and not things like KH, Ca, Mg etc.........folks really do not test Mg near as I can see and it is often limiting for many when they think everything else is covered.

You can dose these ultra low ppm's using a large reservoir and tiny aquarium though, this is is used for algae studies and is called chemostat. Since measuring these tiny amounts is difficult, growth rates are looked at instead and then how much ppb's are added etc to the chemostat. 

A similar set up could be done, but it gets back to what is an easier bullet proof management method for dosing.

I use to suggest more frequent and leaner dosing. But many forget or will not do it. Some folks do well with daily dosing. I feed the fish daily, why not the plants? Others use soil based ferts and do not dose at all. Some do a mix of both. Some keep the water lean, some rich with rich sediments.

In every case we have growth, including non CO2 tanks.

What changes is the RATE of growth between these tanks.

Also, if the aquarist decides that less is best.........then dosing just a hair above limitation is the goal and it's no easy, if you mess up, then you have stunted limited plants etc, this is riding the razor's edge. 

Now say you are going to do that anyhow.......then you'd want to use lower light and less CO2 since that means slower/less growth. This approach works well for nutrient adjustments relative to light/CO2. Less light provides you with more wiggle room at lower ranges because uptake and demand for nutrients is reduced and now limited by light/CO2 etc.

CO2 deficiencies and issues are reduced at lower light, they are enhanced at higher light(more light= more growth).

Ole and Troels published this article on the matter and it's one of the best articles from that decade on aquatic plants in the hobby.

http://www.tropica.com/en/advising/technical-articles/biology-of-aquatic-plants/co2-and-light.aspx

In that article there is this matrix:










This spans the ranges of what most aquarist might experience with light and CO2. In order to do this type of matrix and study, you need to make nutrients non limiting. Now you can see independent of nutrients, how plants grow in response to different light and CO2 combinations.
In each case, there is growth, so in essence, all methods to grow plants work, the only difference is the rates at which they grow plants.
I certainly agree with you on under dosing traces.
Claus mentioned this 15 years ago when people where dosing PMDD mostly and adding 0.1ppm of Fe or less.
I had an older reference by a guy named Karl Schoeder(Substrate Gold and Liquid Fe), he was saying 0.7ppm was good.
The ONLY Fe test in the research on submersed aquatic plants was from Haller et al, 1976.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0304377077900390

 Note the concentration is 6.0 and 8.0 ppm, not 0.6 and 0.8 ppm. 

That's over 10X what I dose which is a lot.
Any guesses on my PAR at the surface, mid depth and the bottom for this tank?:icon_eek:
CO2/O2 is a irritating thing for most, not easy to address. I have to be careful and leave my assumptions at the door with that.


----------



## jcgd

Top I say 410 par, middle 300 and substrate 170 running at full intensity.


----------



## crazydaz

Tom and Aaron--Thanks for the discussion! There is pretty good wisdom and educational material in your posts on this page. Tom, I've followed your leaner+more frequent dosing philosophy for quite some time with sublime results! The only thing that I have historically done is slightly tweak the iron and phosphorus amounts to deepen the reds in my tanks. Otherwise, the method is near-perfect for my system.


----------



## plantbrain

jcgd said:


> Top I say 410 par, middle 300 and substrate 170 running at full intensity.


Higher, higher and little lower in that order, not bad though.


----------



## plantbrain

crazydaz said:


> Tom and Aaron--Thanks for the discussion! There is pretty good wisdom and educational material in your posts on this page. Tom, I've followed your leaner+more frequent dosing philosophy for quite some time with sublime results! The only thing that I have historically done is slightly tweak the iron and phosphorus amounts to deepen the reds in my tanks. Otherwise, the method is near-perfect for my system.


Well, a reference tank will be able to have excess ferts added and really high light also without any impact on plants or algae. All tanks will have a tiny bit of minor algae, but this is very easy to manage and not an issue(I have to point it out to folks in person). 

If you can vary the light from extremely high, down to the threshold of the LCP where PS= R, then you pretty much have the entire light range covered. If you can go from near zero for ferts, up over to say 1/3 full Hoagland's, well, that pretty much covers the ferts.

Your CO2 is likely not an issue based on plant health and lack of algal issues at that point. Now if you cannot do this.........or get algae, well, then the tank is a not a reference, there's some dependency, I do not know what it is.......I can guess and try to adjust some things in hopes of fixing it, but there's no certainty there, it's only when the aquarium goes right and grows the plants well, can I start to test things.

Prior to EI, I did things this way, which led to EI type dosing along with my general fish breeder routine of 50% weekly water changes. It was easy to tell folks what to do, and it was easy it understand over the web.

I'd done soil sediments prior, but did not like mixing 2 distinct layers(still don't), and I'd did kitty litter etc. I fudged a bit and added a small amount of peat and osmocoat, or jobes sticks etc, but not enough to make a mess if I uprooted. If your approach is more nature style, then soil based approaches and dosing works nicely. I'm more a Dutch style but I like to dabble with other styles, concepts. Landscaping and the home, I'm more 
http://www.rothteien.com/about/philosophy.htm

I agree with this view and try to implement many of these aspects. 
My aquariums are different however. I have and hold different views there.
Hopefully some will look beyond the front of the picture of a Nature aquarium.
Perhaps even change your perspective and ideas within yourself.
I am no expert, but I think this way.


----------



## ophiophagus

Incredible


----------



## ps3steveo

Beautiful set up there, I have a question tho, what's the foreground plant behind the moss on wood? Never seen it before?


----------



## plantbrain

ps3steveo said:


> Beautiful set up there, I have a question tho, what's the foreground plant behind the moss on wood? Never seen it before?


Likely Downoi(now) or Erio cinenerum if you are looking at the last page.
Maybe Ludwigia pilosa if it's on the far left.


----------



## ua hua

Tom, I have a question about your choice of bulbs. I have a tek 4x54 coming soon and I'm going to use 1 Geismann midday, 1 Geismann aquaflora, 1 ati blue special and 1 ati purple plus. I also ordered a GE starcoat because I'm afraid the tank might look too blue/purple with both the blue special and purple plus. I'm used to using blue colored bulbs on my tank because I like the way it makes the fish look. Right now I have power compacts and am running a 12,000k, 8800k, and dual actinic which is both blue and puple looking so I'm hoping with the t5 choices I'm going to have similar color rendering with the addition of a red bulb being the aquaflora. So with only having a 4 bulb fixture is having a blue special and a purple plus going to make it too blue looking or would I be better off leaving out the purple plus and using the GE starcoat in it's place? I really wish I could use a 6 bulb fixture to have options of more bulb choices but it would be overkill since my tank has a canopy and can't raise the lights 10+ inches over my tank.


----------



## plantbrain

the T5's will be to your liking, you'll need to switch things around and see what you like.


----------



## plantbrain

Made a big mess today.










I moved the Ludwgia red to the rear, remove the R. macrandra completely and the Bacopa lanigera. They are weedy, no one seemed to by or keep them for a reasonable $ and they can be bought fairly cheap.


UG is extremely dense:













This is the stunted Rotala "sunset". The leaves are about 1/2 as long as what I had prior, they have reddened up a little since I got them Friday. If they revet back, then Antbug's issues is most likely CO2 and/or light. Since Aaron's tank has less light than mine, but both tanks produced larger/longer leaves, the light may not have a large influence, perhaps with color etc......but not with actually leaf size I would suggest/argue/think.

A few more tweaks on Antbugs tank, and I think he'll have a dandy tank though. $$$ does not come easily, so upgrades like an ATI light system is not something many walk out and buy tomorrow.

Good CO2 can be worked on now however.

I moved the L pilosa away from the L inclinata as they are similar in coloration. 

It's not the best place for it, but it does high light a nice plant.
It's worth 15X as much as the L. "red" and is a nice slow grower.

I might remove the L perunesis/granulosus and sell that and move the Red ludwigia over to that spot. I might change the L pilosa again, not sure, we will see.

Downoi has really bounced back from the dinky stump leftovers. I'll allow that to expand and come down in front where the E hydropiper is now on the left smaller side, sell that bit of E hydropiper.......then have extra grow out space for the downoi and the E Hydropiper as well. 

I have some different wood pieces I'll attach the mini pellia to on the far Right. I removed the Starougyne purple, sig other said it did not look good. She was right. 

I explored using the L pantanal and Red Macrandra in the spot where the L pilosa is now. Did not look good and the growth pattern would not look right/trimming etc, over time.


----------



## DennisSingh

That UG looks divine, its just growing out of the soil like that? Pantanal looks good wherever it is if grown well whhich you do, pretty plant.


----------



## plantbrain

Rotala "sunset" today, let's see it in 2-3 weeks.


----------



## plantbrain

The Rotala Sunset will be eventually moved to the old Red macrandra location.
I'll moss the piece of wood next to the Downoi and expand the downoi group some. 

I had to move the L. pilsoa, it was just an issue where is was prior. 
I may go back to Hydrothrix in place of the erio type 3, it does not like to be crowded and it's not that they are not getting enough light etc. There's little other reason for the growth patterns I've seen with it. 

Hydrothrix grows 10X faster, so a nice dense thicket can be made.

Not sure yet.


----------



## FlyingHellFish

Are you going to trim the UG? I heard if they get too high the bottom parts gets white and die off.

Also, I see you have Painted Reds, how active are they in your EI dosing? Do you ever see them breeding?


----------



## DennisSingh

FlyingHellFish said:


> Also, I see you have Painted Reds, how active are they in your EI dosing? Do you ever see them breeding?


Look through past posts in, I haven't gotten a chance to read everything here yet, but in the beginning they're infesting his tank like roaches. But Barr will probably answer better and go all out scientific
And just by seeing a few in a picture you can tell the tank is flooded as there is plenty of hiding places.


----------



## plantbrain

FlyingHellFish said:


> Are you going to trim the UG? I heard if they get too high the bottom parts gets white and die off.
> 
> Also, I see you have Painted Reds, how active are they in your EI dosing? Do you ever see them breeding?


I have no such issues with UG, but I prune and replant it every 10-12 weeks and sell off 50-100$ worth. $ motivates me to trim and sell it.

This tank produces no less than 50 Fire shrimp a week, often about 100.
So they not only breed, I do not think I could kill them even if I wanted to with pesticides.

Shrimp/discus folks really are a crazy lot, and the old myths die hard.

But here's why: inbreeding. The livestock is of such poor quality initially....because they rush to get their developed inbred lines out to market and sell. After a few independent lines develop of the same strain...........and then are cross breed to produce the same coloration/traits.........now we have a much much stronger healthier more ethical livestock line. These are much stronger and healthier than the initial 1st lines of inbred brother's and sisters.

The same issues are with Dogs and cats and why the Cat and Dog shows check the overall health and the walking, running of the animals, not just looks.


----------



## AaronT

I'm getting good color on my R. 'Sunset' as well. I really wish I knew what the trick is with this plant. Hopefully this experiment will shed some light on the subject.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> I'm getting good color on my R. 'Sunset' as well. I really wish I knew what the trick is with this plant. Hopefully this experiment will shed some light on the subject.


When I bought it from you, the plant just kept growing like yours.
I see no reason why it will not again. 

Nice plant really.


----------



## accordztech

Id like some of that UG when I get my new setup going. YUmm


----------



## antbug

Wow Aaron. That looks amazing. Well there is no doubt that your means work :hihi: Thanks for sharing.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Wow Aaron. That looks amazing. Well there is no doubt that your means work :hihi: Thanks for sharing.


I trimmed the stuff you gave me so they are all about 2-3" long tops.
I have about 12 or so. They will branch and divide so we will have plenty and you can have the nice tops etc since you "donated" them to me. Give me 6 stems, get 12 nice fat ones in return.


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> I trimmed the stuff you gave me so they are all about 2-3" long tops.
> I have about 12 or so. They will branch and divide so we will have plenty and you can have the nice tops etc since you "donated" them to me. Give me 6 stems, get 12 nice fat ones in return.



Works for me. roud: I took off my spray bar and left the outflow more like yours. I also bumped up the co2 more. Fish seem fine so why not. The one stem is looking a little better, but it was a small one so it's hard to tell. I'll take a picture in a few days and compare it to the picture I took before I made these changes.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Works for me. roud: I took off my spray bar and left the outflow more like yours. I also bumped up the co2 more. Fish seem fine so why not. The one stem is looking a little better, but it was a small one so it's hard to tell. I'll take a picture in a few days and compare it to the picture I took before I made these changes.


For other folks, I have a lot more light than Antbug, this can make a large difference in the rate of growth, but many times higher light tends to produce smaller, not larger leaves.

Guess it's time for a new pic of the destruction I've done this week.


----------



## sketch804

I swear I can't get that plant to grow for the life of me..
Anyway, great info here as always, and the pix, well they speak for themselves..


----------



## plantbrain

I hacked a sod out of the UG, left it and simply tucked the edge of the rug back under. I'll remove the rest of the rug and then replant plugs well packed into the area later. Did not feel like it yesterday so I left it. 

I re roped the Fissidens and then finally got around to adding the Mini pellia to the wood on the Right side. That was a PITA. The stuff crumbles, makes tying Fissidens in lots of tiny clumps look easy.

Looks nice though. I think I'll cut the shape in Stain steel mesh I want for that area and then use a hair net. Either that or some Green fingers following the flow of the other branches.

The other side with the Fissidens will have another green finger coming out of the middle, I just started a piece of wood that will be used for that. The Downoi has recovered and grown into large nice sized plants pretty fast. The L inclinata grows at a break neck pace. Trimming is aggressive.

I will likely sell the L penuinesis and then move the Ludwigia red to that position. The Rotala Sunset will end up in the Rear I suspect where the R macrandra was. This opens up one space for something new to toy around with in the background area.

The Ludwgia pilosa is coming along nicely and has reddened up more than I thought it would. I'm not sure this is the best scape layout, color scheme to highlight the plant, but.........oh well for now. If I get rid of the L inclinata, it'll be moved back over there, but I do not want two plant so similar in coloration this close. In another 2 weeks or so, I'll have some real nice stems of it and will be able to rescape a larger group and have more options to explore. It contrast nicely with the UG and the Fissidens, and the downoi looks decent as long as I have a Fissidens finger between them.

If I move the L pilosa, then this opens up a new spot in the mid foreground row also.


----------



## ophiophagus

I love this tank's design completely different, simple, and refreshing. Is the plant I pointed the arrow to below Hydrocotyle sp. japan?


----------



## kwheeler91

I like how there is just a sweet ass piece of wood sitting in the corner 
Good lookin tank too. Hopefully I will be able to set up something this nice/lucrative one day.


----------



## plantbrain

ophiophagus said:


> I love this tank's design completely different, simple, and refreshing. Is the plant I pointed the arrow to below Hydrocotyle sp. japan?


Just plain old H sibthorpides.


----------



## plantbrain

kwheeler91 said:


> I like how there is just a sweet ass piece of wood sitting in the corner
> Good lookin tank too. Hopefully I will be able to set up something this nice/lucrative one day.


The plants are meant to distract from the wood actually so you notice it later/afterwards/not at all. Many try to highlight the hardscape with the plants, this tank tries to do the opposite. You are the 1st person who picked up on it.

Congrats


----------



## florini

plantbrain said:


> You are the 1st person who picked up on it.
> 
> Congrats


Zing! Now everyone else feels like an A student who suddenly got a C 

Fortunately there are pretty tank pics above that will calm our nerves


----------



## plantbrain

florini said:


> Zing! Now everyone else feels like an A student who suddenly got a C
> 
> Fortunately there are pretty tank pics above that will calm our nerves


It was minor thing, but I have ample wood, I use it more subtle than say the obvious 70 Gal Manzy where the burls are highlighted and the plants are subdued. the other 2 tanks are mixture of wood and plant domination.


----------



## shrimpnmoss

Streets of Fire! 

Wait...could this the first Barr tank journal that I've lurked that doesn't have 1,000 fish in it? This then a Woodagumi SSS CRS tank?....could Tom be coming over to the shrimp side completely?


----------



## accordztech

> I re roped the Fissidens and then finally got around to adding the Mini pellia to the wood on the Right side. That was a PITA. The stuff crumbles, makes tying Fissidens in lots of tiny clumps look easy.


Was that my pellia? Holy cow it took you forever to put on! I got more of that if you need some. Yea I hate how it crumbles and kinda comes apart.


----------



## plantbrain

shrimpnmoss said:


> Streets of Fire!
> 
> Wait...could this the first Barr tank journal that I've lurked that doesn't have 1,000 fish in it? This then a Woodagumi SSS CRS tank?....could Tom be coming over to the shrimp side completely?


Well, folks buy them and they are damn easy to breed.
Problem: fish like to eat them, so as long as the fish do not eat them all, things are good.

I have not added the fish yet to the 120 gal is all, nor to the 70 gal.
They are in Quarantine.

Once they are done there.......in they go.


----------



## plantbrain

accordztech said:


> Was that my pellia? Holy cow it took you forever to put on! I got more of that if you need some. Yea I hate how it crumbles and kinda comes apart.


No, this is the mini, yours is much larger and easier to grow and tie on to wood etc.

This stuff frankly sucks...........but looks cooler than normal Pellia.


----------



## ps3steveo

Hi Tom, how's the UG for upkeep? I'm currently in the planning/building stages of a 130gal planted Discus tank and was going to use UG as a carpet for most of the bare substrate. Main thing I want to make sure of is as long as you trim it regular will it root well and not end up floating? I have done a few scapes in the past and ended up with my HC slowly coming away from the substrate and that's the last thing I want in a tank full of discus .

Thanks
Steve


----------



## plantbrain

UG is a much better rooter, if you are after the HC look, the eltaine hydropiper might work.

Or elatine triandra


----------



## zergling

Tom, the UG came with hitchhiker shrimplets :hihi: I counted 3 earlier, who knows if there's a few more LOL!


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Tom, the UG came with hitchhiker shrimplets :hihi: I counted 3 earlier, who knows if there's a few more LOL!


That which cannot be killed.

Oh, but the shrimp boards post day and night the harm of high ferts.............maybe if they did not inbred so much........they'd not have these issues, I have about 100 Fires of mix grade for 50$ if in anyone is interested locally/semi locally fro this tank.
I have this amount most weeks actually and a low price, but if you cull and sort, you can get some real strong pure red lines.


----------



## ps3steveo

Its cool I'm not after the look of HC, been there and done it so many times so I'm going for UG. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## plantbrain

UG has some picky issues, but so does HC...........but folks will pay you will be able to sell UG easier.


----------



## ganjero

Tom,

Simply amazing!

What return pump do you use for this tank? How much CO2 does this tank consume?

Thanks


----------



## plantbrain

ganjero said:


> Tom,
> 
> Simply amazing!
> 
> What return pump do you use for this tank? How much CO2 does this tank consume?
> 
> Thanks


I toast a 10lb tank maybe 3-4 months I guess? Might be longer, but not shorter.
Lifegard 4000, ends up being about 800gph at this head pressure and pipe bends etc.


----------



## accordztech

plantbrain said:


> No, this is the mini, yours is much larger and easier to grow and tie on to wood etc.
> 
> This stuff frankly sucks...........but looks cooler than normal Pellia.


I knew my pellia looked weird. I do like the smaller version. How about some pics of the pellia? :icon_smil


----------



## plantbrain

I've removed the normal Pellia, well...........97% of it and there's frags of it still floating around.

The Rotala sunset has started to get larger again, effectively doubling the leaf size. In a week or so, the difference will be good and I'll get a pic


----------



## plantbrain

The Day's harvest: about 100$ worth of UG. That's 150$ for every 2-3 months. 


























Before:









After:









Rotala "sunset" is growing nicely and the leaves are getting larger and wider:


















Note the size increase the last 2 weeks on the Downoi scraps & stumps. Now folks would pay good $ for them.
I will move the R sunset to the middle row where the L inclinata is now and move that to the rear or just keep a little bit.
Then allow the downoi to fill back in nicely in the rest of the area:


The Ludwigia pilosa is doing nicely and has reddened up more than I thought it would. I'll keep the position it is at for now, it contrast better and is not as weedy as L inclinata. 


Can you spot the fish recently added?


----------



## plantbrain

I likely will return the Ludwgia red back to the front middle row.


----------



## kwheeler91

I spy a... Pencilfish


----------



## plantbrain

kwheeler91 said:


> I spy a... Pencilfish


Yes, only a few made it through Quarantine this time. 
Would have lost the entire batch had I not done that.


----------



## chad320

Let me know when some of your Rotala 'Sunset' is ready for trimming  I could use a few stems. I have two and it just grows too slow to grow it out myself.


----------



## kwheeler91

plantbrain said:


> Yes, only a few made it through Quarantine this time.
> Would have lost the entire batch had I not done that.


Good thing you mowed that ug. Now you can buy more pencilfish


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> Rotala "sunset" is growing nicely and the leaves are getting larger and wider:


As expected, it's recovering nicely in your tank. I've bumped up my co2 4 times (almost two full numbers on the Ideal vernier handle) since and I'm not seeing these results. I've also increased my GB booster. It will interesting to see what they do when I put them bank in my tank. 

That hydropiper is looking fantastic as well. Talk about a money pit. That plant alone will end up funding this tank.


----------



## @[email protected]

that e. hydropiper is absolutely stunning. 
im gonna have to get my hands on that eventually. whats the going price for it?


----------



## antbug

@[email protected] said:


> that e. hydropiper is absolutely stunning.
> im gonna have to get my hands on that eventually. whats the going price for it?



Supply and demand. :biggrin: I've seen quarter size pieces go for $30.


----------



## freph

antbug said:


> Supply and demand. :biggrin: I've seen quarter size pieces go for $30.


Something I'm not willing to pay out for a smaller version of glosso. :hihi: Hopefully Tom will be a bit more lenient with his prices or at least his quantities. He was very generous the one time I did business with him. :thumbsup:


----------



## zergling

Open-top tank + nannostomus mortenthaleri = well-fed floor/cat :frown:


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Open-top tank + nannostomus mortenthaleri = well-fed floor/cat :frown:


Yes, in some tanks I've had that problem, but we lack kitties. 
This tank seems a bit more to their liking though, so we will see.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Supply and demand. :biggrin: I've seen quarter size pieces go for $30.


Good to know

I'll have a couple of patches coming up.

BTW, when you stop by to get the 70 Rummies, you can take a look in person at the plants.

Then decide.

This works better than pics, but pics are good if they are all you have.
Recovery can take a week or two before nice growth starts filling back in.


----------



## plantbrain

Added the main fish today: Red Phantom tetras.


----------



## plantbrain

chad320 said:


> Let me know when some of your Rotala 'Sunset' is ready for trimming  I could use a few stems. I have two and it just grows too slow to grow it out myself.


It goes nuts in here after a week or two.

I had a lot of branching and new tops form last time I had it.
since it has a nice color, since I've made some other changes........and since it has a high demand..........and not commercial vendors sell it, it is a good candidate.

However: Macarenia clavigera

THAT.............is the no#1 plant on my list.

Hop damn.


----------



## zergling

plantbrain said:


> Yes, in some tanks I've had that problem, but we lack kitties.
> This tank seems a bit more to their liking though, so we will see.


Yeah, I hope something in your tank prevents them from jumping off. These are not cheap cardinals :icon_roll


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Yeah, I hope something in your tank prevents them from jumping off. These are not cheap cardinals :icon_roll


Yep, hopefully ............already wrote them all off when the disease hit in the Q tank.

They do not hang near the surface like in some tanks.

N espei always did though.


----------



## AaronT

> However: Macarenia clavigera
> 
> THAT.............is the no#1 plant on my list.
> 
> Hop damn.


There are a lot of plants that I want that I'm not willing to risk my life to get.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> There are a lot of plants that I want that I'm not willing to risk my life to get.


I am.

I do.

And I have.

Gators, biting flies, slippery rocks, skeeters, no see ums, ciggers, snakes, hillbillies with guns(often growing something), cliffs, water falls, frigid water, lightning...what a list.........

I'm more likely to killed driving, so I do not fear most things, but I hope not to die on my own:redface:


----------



## plantbrain

Antbug stopped by today to nab some other items and got to see the Rotala sunset.

It's clear something is going on, as the plant is clearly recovering and getting 2x larger.

He added a lot more CO2 so perhaps in 1-2 weeks, we will see if that was the issue.


----------



## audioaficionado

Representatives from the Mexican drug cartels do a lot of farming in the national forests in my region. Gotta be real careful and observant when hiking around in the woods. See anything that doesn't belong, back out quickly and quietly or you may not get out at all. Most locate near water sources so looking for plants, moss or manzanita can get you in close proximity to their operations.


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> Representatives from the Mexican drug cartels do a lot of farming in the national forests in my region. Gotta be real careful and observant when hiking around in the woods. See anything that doesn't belong, back out quickly and quietly or you may not get out at all. Most locate near water sources so looking for plants, moss or manzanita can get you in close proximity to their operations.


Not where I collect, they'd get shot by all the hillbillies wasting their ammo, now those hillbillies might be growing...........

But on a per dry weight and per unit area, aquatic plants can be a better profit margin/higher value crop. But you need to be a good grower and have good sales/marketing.


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> I am.
> 
> I do.
> 
> And I have.
> 
> Gators, biting flies, slippery rocks, skeeters, no see ums, ciggers, snakes, hillbillies with guns(often growing something), cliffs, water falls, frigid water, lightning...what a list.........
> 
> I'm more likely to killed driving, so I do not fear most things, but I hope not to die on my own:redface:



I've battled those too, save the hillbillies. The drug cartel is where I draw the line though.  Try explaining you were after different plants than theirs.


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> Antbug stopped by today to nab some other items and got to see the Rotala sunset.
> 
> It's clear something is going on, as the plant is clearly recovering and getting 2x larger.
> 
> He added a lot more CO2 so perhaps in 1-2 weeks, we will see if that was the issue.


It might be closer to two weeks now. I got home last night and 5 of the new rummys we gasping for air. Only 2 hours after the co2 turns on. :icon_eek: I backed off two full numbers on my ideal NV. I'll slowly increase it back up, but I might give them a few days. 100 rummys look pretty freakin cool. roud:


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> I've battled those too, save the hillbillies. The drug cartel is where I draw the line though.  Try explaining you were after different plants than theirs.


I've actually done this in Mexico, they let us pass. Actually pretty nice as long as they know you are not messing with their business, they go after each other. I do not like the Federales though, Army and some of the others are okay.

It was that way when we lived there 30 years ago, other than American chain stores everywhere much is still the same.


----------



## plantbrain

Got some new plant species in last night.

Still trying to figure where to put each of them.


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> Got some new plant species in last night.
> 
> Still trying to figure where to put each of them.


Is it the "hop damn" no#1 plant on your list. :hihi:


----------



## phan10ms

Tom, are you using any special RO/Tap mix with this particular tank? I'm curious because not too long ago I've been so convinced that my plants needed RO water because of my Toninas, erios, and my Rotala Sunsets. I've had problems with stunted and curled leaves with the Sunsets for months, and this is with great co2. I made the switch back to 100 percent tap with co2 left alone and now I'm constantly trimming weekly with the Sunsets looking awesome. What gives? My tap GH checks in at ~11-12.


----------



## Hadouken441

Every single one of your tanks makes me either want to spend a lot of money or stop trying -_-....

but i love you tanks. The colors on this one are amazing


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Is it the "hop damn" no#1 plant on your list. :hihi:


Naw, I did not get back from Colombia last night


----------



## plantbrain

phan10ms said:


> Tom, are you using any special RO/Tap mix with this particular tank? I'm curious because not too long ago I've been so convinced that my plants needed RO water because of my Toninas, erios, and my Rotala Sunsets. I've had problems with stunted and curled leaves with the Sunsets for months, and this is with great co2. I made the switch back to 100 percent tap with co2 left alone and now I'm constantly trimming weekly with the Sunsets looking awesome. What gives? My tap GH checks in at ~11-12.


I use and always have used 100% tap water in every tank except one in Davis CA, a 20 Gal where I cut 1/3rd tap with RO.

My Gh is around 2 for this tank.


----------



## plantbrain

I like L pilosa, but am thinking I like R. sunset better, I tossed it in the rear in the past, so it's really doing well in the new spot front and center.

Scaping with the color of the L pilosa is making it tough. 
The color and form of the R sunset is pretty nice for the spot the L. pilosa is in now.

The leaves have gotten even larger today after a good water change and ferts added.

I might change the Erio type 3, they do not respond well to dense crowding, I measured the light, check, plenty, CO2 etc and the other parameters are equally avail to the plants, the plants that are more crowded seem to do poor, but if I pull them out, they recover with ample space, even if the light is LESS.

Space is a potential "limitation" it seems for this species, while other species can just be packed together like Starougyne repens in my 180. that thing can crowd like few other plant species.

I have a nice new/old? Syn species, might be Belem, but looks too small.
and Erio setaceum type 1.

I also got a wide blade Erio a little bit like goias, but the color is off, a neat blueish hue and rounded tip vs pointed. This I can use if the color stays the same.

Also got some plain Nesaea pedicillata and not the FAN's golden version.
I have some of the FAN stuff from a local who stunted it. It semi recovered. 
We will see what happens later. I've done very well in the past with N pedicillata plain/normal.

Also got some true Alternanthera cardinalis and L. madagascaresis.

Hopefully the cardinalis will do well at such high light unlike the reineckii.
It has a different color hue than the reineckii which works well.

Also came up with some interesting parallelogram shapes for the foreground plants on the right side of the tank, will try them out and see if I like the over all impression and the micro impression of each group contrasting.


----------



## plantbrain

Here you can see the Rotala sunset differences. 
A stem plant is like a history of growth and issues.

The lowest leaves are from Aaron's tank conditions, note the leaf size/length/width and internode length.

You see the squeezed middle part? Something happened in Antbug's tank.
See the top portion? That's my tank conditions.
Antbug and I have the same tap water source and dose roughly the same stuff, but the light/CO2 are different.










What this suggest are few things:

1. The plant grows well over a wide range of nutrient levels and locations of the nutrients, no surprises there.
2. Antbug might have a CO2 issue, but it could be the light also
3. Aaron's light might give insight to the light issue.
4. We have a light meter in the local club
5. CO2.........

This narrows the possible issues down pretty well to the bigger players: light/CO2.
I have not found any plants to date that do not follow this pattern.

Back to the R sunset.
The internodal lengths are pretty close in my tank as they are in Aarons, but only 1/3 rd the size in Antbug's.
Leaf length is 1/2, maybe less.
Width is also about 1/2.

Color was not really much different though.
Seems that might suggest light has less to do with it.
I initially had the plant in the rear behind the wood, but placed it out in the center this time. Both locations did well.
It does not seem a picky plant in that respect(light).


----------



## jcgd

Wow, there is a huge difference. So you think it's most likely a co2 issue? Stunted?


----------



## plantbrain

jcgd said:


> Wow, there is a huge difference. So you think it's most likely a co2 issue? Stunted?


I have not seen lower light reduce the plant growth like that in any species yet, so..........and the ferts if Antbug is adding them like me, and the tap water are the same, sediment might be different.

My water is dosed 30-45ppm NO3, 10-15ppm and 1-2 ppm traces weekly.
Ca is only dosed about 2-3ppm and tap is very soft GH, under 2 degrees.

It would be VERY hard even with my ultra soft tap water to induce a Ca++ deficiency. I've sent days and weeks in Tahoe and never saw any evidence of Ca++ limitation for shellfish or snails, or plants.

So CO2 is the most likely candidate would be my guess.
I have a wet/dry filter and take care of the tank well, but Antbug takes care of his tank well.

It'll take another 1-2 weeks to see if the CO2 adjustment fixes his plant issue here.

You can generally tell in a week for 90% of most plants.

There is also the Riccia stone in the corners trick: place them and watch for pearling after 1-2 hours, or at least by midday. Then the CO2 is good.
Better than any drop checker, but you have to add riccia which I hate.


----------



## Overfloater

Tom, I have been getting new growth on my nana petite that will have several large holes in it. The leaf is nice and green and the holes appear to come in as the leaf grows. The holes do not have any discoloration around their edges. Does this sound like a co2 deficiency?


----------



## styxx

Overfloater said:


> Tom, I have been getting new growth on my nana petite that will have several large holes in it. The leaf is nice and green and the holes appear to come in as the leaf grows. The holes do not have any discoloration around their edges. Does this sound like a co2 deficiency?


Weird; my first guess would be an Fe issue, especially with Anbuias but you said that new growth is nice and green. I can't figure out why there'd be a hole without chlorosis that precedes tissue thinning...but straight up _*holes*_? Perhaps Nitrogen or magnesium?


----------



## DennisSingh

My guess would be a potassium issue


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> Here you can see the Rotala sunset differences.
> A stem plant is like a history of growth and issues.
> 
> The lowest leaves are from Aaron's tank conditions, note the leaf size/length/width and internode length.
> 
> You see the squeezed middle part? Something happened in Antbug's tank.
> See the top portion? That's my tank conditions.
> Antbug and I have the same tap water source and dose roughly the same stuff, but the light/CO2 are different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What this suggest are few things:
> 
> 1. The plant grows well over a wide range of nutrient levels and locations of the nutrients, no surprises there.
> 2. Antbug might have a CO2 issue, but it could be the light also
> 3. Aaron's light might give insight to the light issue.
> 4. We have a light meter in the local club
> 5. CO2.........
> 
> This narrows the possible issues down pretty well to the bigger players: light/CO2.
> I have not found any plants to date that do not follow this pattern.
> 
> Back to the R sunset.
> The internodal lengths are pretty close in my tank as they are in Aarons, but only 1/3 rd the size in Antbug's.
> Leaf length is 1/2, maybe less.
> Width is also about 1/2.
> 
> Color was not really much different though.
> Seems that might suggest light has less to do with it.
> I initially had the plant in the rear behind the wood, but placed it out in the center this time. Both locations did well.
> It does not seem a picky plant in that respect(light).


That's pretty cool to see the different stages it's gone through. 

My light is an ATI 4 x 39 watt T5 fixture over an ADA 90-P 2 bulbs on for 10 hours and 4 bulbs on for 4 hours. I've grown it with only the 2 bulbs on for 10 hours for weeks at a time as well, albeit slower. 

Our club just got a par meter. I'll have to borrow it sometime and report back.


----------



## jcgd

styxx said:


> Weird; my first guess would be an Fe issue, especially with Anbuias but you said that new growth is nice and green. I can't figure out why there'd be a hole without chlorosis that precedes tissue thinning...but straight up _*holes*_? Perhaps Nitrogen or magnesium?


I would also guess potassium. When growth is almost good, but holes are my only issue I find potassium is usually the culprit. 



AaronT said:


> That's pretty cool to see the different stages it's gone through.
> 
> My light is an ATI 4 x 39 watt T5 fixture over an ADA 90-P 2 bulbs on for 10 hours and 4 bulbs on for 4 hours. I've grown it with only the 2 bulbs on for 10 hours for weeks at a time as well, albeit slower.
> 
> Our club just got a par meter. I'll have to borrow it sometime and report back.


Did it grow better/same/worse under the 2 bulbs only? I'm thinking you had everything good except the co2, so the plant tried to grow quickly to keep up with your high lighting but the co2 wasn't up to snuff and stunted the plant. It looks like it tried to keep growing, but lacked the fuel to get to proper size.


----------



## Geniusdudekiran

Tom -- that picture just demonstrates that you've got the whole hobby figure our down to a science more than probably anyone in the US. Looks great roud:


----------



## @[email protected]

i am absolutely amazed you salvaged that stem. i had a few stems that would sometimes wittle down like that, and when that happened, they were dead for sure, no matter what tank i transplanted to.


----------



## AaronT

jcgd said:


> Did it grow better/same/worse under the 2 bulbs only? I'm thinking you had everything good except the co2, so the plant tried to grow quickly to keep up with your high lighting but the co2 wasn't up to snuff and stunted the plant. It looks like it tried to keep growing, but lacked the fuel to get to proper size.


It grew the same, well, just slower. I wasn't the one with the stunting issues.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> That's pretty cool to see the different stages it's gone through.
> 
> My light is an ATI 4 x 39 watt T5 fixture over an ADA 90-P 2 bulbs on for 10 hours and 4 bulbs on for 4 hours. I've grown it with only the 2 bulbs on for 10 hours for weeks at a time as well, albeit slower.
> 
> Our club just got a par meter. I'll have to borrow it sometime and report back.


I think we can rule out light for our tanks, Antbugs can post his measures(it's a Tek I think), ATI lights are kick butt.

I think over the area, our lighting is fairly close, mine might be a bit more, different bulbs, but actually pretty close overall. 

I have more light, but more area that's pretty close, I ramp the lights up over a long time frame using the dimmer function, so it's an 8 hour time, but likely more light, it peaks for about 4-5 hours then drops off.

The color shade has developed nicely out in the front part of the tank, so I've removed the L. pilosa, and added a few things and made a nice spot for this plant to fill in.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> It grew the same, well, just slower. I wasn't the one with the stunting issues.


I think that's the point, both Aaron and my tanks have different rates of growth, but the quality of growth is similar. Antbug's tank has growth also, but.....this is the big issue, the quality is different.

Still, we can say we can get similar "quality" with very little dosing to the water, rich source in the sediment, or rich water column dosing, but little in the sediment.

This suggest something I've contended all along: aquatic plants are opportunistic, they will take nutrients WHEREVER they can get them.
As long as there is some source nutrient somewhere, it's really a non issue.

That reduces to the issues to things like KH, current, filtration, CO2, light.
Light can be controlled very well with alight meter and open top.
Filtration and O2 can be measured, KH as well.

Current and CO2/O2 are interesting and useful areas to look at.

In rivers, we find plants where there are ideal current and sediments.
Lake, same thing.


----------



## jgb77

Now for it to have been a co2 issue, Antbug should be able to get comparable growth in the stem/stems he kept in his tank when his co2 is fixed. Then we can say it was/is co2.
This is really good stuff and I've enjoyed watching it progress.
John


----------



## plantbrain

jgb77 said:


> Now for it to have been a co2 issue, Antbug should be able to get comparable growth in the stem/stems he kept in his tank when his co2 is fixed. Then we can say it was/is co2.
> This is really good stuff and I've enjoyed watching it progress.
> John


Well, CO2 is trickier than merely "adding more".
that may be the root issue, but how we go about that without gassing fish is multidimensional.

Antbug felt his fish had already hit the CO2 max ceiling.
In order to raise this ceiling, he added more flow and surface movement.
With a canister filter, you are limited by the surface flow.
So you can actually have considerable torrent on the surface vs say the same effect for a wet/dry filter which are much better at making sure there is ample O2 as well.

We lose some CO2, mostly from removing that thick slime scum layer when we do this and this allows the O2 to come into the water faster/easier.

This also allows CO2 to escape out. But that's less of an issue as long as it is relative stable. No one this really matters a whole lot f you do not have any livestock.

Or does it?

What else grows faster and is a lot more active with higher O2?
Bacteria. There is more available to the bacteria, and more O2 can penetrate the top of the sand/soil layers also, this seems to help planted tanks. 

Still, my CO2 levels range from 45-70ppm 3 tanks and each tank has a different optima. These are based on observations of the plants and livestock. Only then is a CO2 ppm measurement taken.
O2 however, in all 3 tanks, is the same, right around 7.0 for the warmer tank and 7.5/7.8 ppm for the cooler ones. This creeps up during the day maybe to 8 to around 9.5 ppm depending on when and the tank.

This allows me more wiggle room adding CO2, without gassing my fish.
People that claim CO2 ay 25-30ppm gas their fish has issues with O2. Even the largest discus and most sensitive fish have no issues up to about 45ppm if the O2 is good.

I also suspect this is why many shrimp people have trouble with brood production. Poor O2 and too little CO2. Or too much Co2/not enough O2.

The Fire shrimp breed like rabbits.


----------



## plantbrain

The other issue folks have when addressing a plant growth problem is a reference.













Since we have a reference on the Left and the Right, both are different references, but references nonetheless. Now if we did not have a reference then we might be tempted to say much more and end up getting nowhere.

Which reference is better? If you master both reference points, only then can you say. Then compare and contrast, measure growth rate differences etc. 

Still, for any test, you need some sort of reference showing quality growth. 
This does NOT imply that reference is the only reference possible.
There maybe 2-3 etc.

Eg, my tank does NOT imply that aquarist that dose less, will have poor results. Nor does Aaron's aquarium imply that people who dose more, will have bad results. I think many people assume that is the case, but observations of the results we see...in many tanks, tells us that cannot be the case. This is where folks get into trouble. 

So this leads away from ferts/dosing and more towards light and CO2, O2, bacterial cycling, trimming/gardening, scaping etc........

I chose to dose rich and apply CO2/high current because there will be less RISK of interaction/dependencies from potentially limiting factors. Experimentally, this works better. But with all this stuff, getting the test set up going right can be tricky regardless of the method chosen.

Often is the case: The method did not fail, we did.
why? Because we KNOW each method works well, we have the evidence and observations to say this.

Folks seem to forget this sometimes.
Also, Aaron's tank is not radically different from my own.
And it would seem that Antbug's is not either.

But you can see above the results.

We should take the most likely suspect, in this case, most would suggest CO2. After a few weeks of fiddling, Antbug's tank will have better O2 due to increasing the current flow and O2 turnover(good for fish, cycling and bacteria), which will in turn increase the CO2 upper ceiling. While his tank does look nice.......many would like to have a nice 120p........he knows he can do better. End result: his horticultural skills and ability to target the hardest issue will be greatly improved. Dosing is easy. Light adjustment is not too bad. This leaves mostly CO2 by deduction.

Water changes, how you prune, the biomass total and plant species, sediment type etc, plays a role also.


----------



## plantbrain

The hole by the main piece of wood will have more UG added.









I like the color of the R sunset, I did not really give it a chance before.
I can get a nice thicket going and it'll look nice like the L inclinata, but nowhere near as weedy and folks will actually buy sunset off me.

Good choice, but as is the case often times, you have to try it and see what you think.

Just the way it goes most times.
l
1st Harvest from the Elatine hydropiper, the root mat is really dense, more dense that Gloss, HC etc. It stays pretty well rooted unlike most plants this size( dwarf Clover, HC, Gloss even).









Where the tank is headed the next 1-2 weeks.










I am uncertain how the new Alternanthera cardinalis will do, this is a different vareirty than what we typically get in the USA.
The A reineckii tends to do better for me in lower light, as an understory plant.
I want to see if this biotype will be different.
N. pedicillata is the normal type Yellow etc, it is not the Golden N pedicillata from FAN. 
UG will fill in the back side there, more downoi will be trimmed as it grows and will fill that spot in nicely. 



This Right side below hopefully will recover from these new Erio broadleaf. We are not sure what species they are. I mixed some of the smaller trimmings of the Tonina. The yellow leaves are the dying emergent leaves on the Erios. Hopefully they will make it and retain the slight off blue color. I also removed most of the Fissidens, it was a trap for detritus and algae. Mini Pellia seems to work better.


----------



## AaronT

I wonder about temperature too. I keep my tanks as close to 75 degrees as possible. I've found that warmer than that is not necessary and a lot of plants don't like it.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> I wonder about temperature too. I keep my tanks as close to 75 degrees as possible. I've found that warmer than that is not necessary and a lot of plants don't like it.


Speak of the devil.

I recently (2 days ago) bumped the temp up and the heater over shot , said 82F, actually was 87F. The new Red Phantoms had a touch of ick on one one or two, so I added MG and upped the temp some. I think it was about 78F or so. The 70 gal is 73-75F typically. 

The E hydropiper started to brown out in a few patches.

In general, lower temps make every thing easier and the metabolism rates slow down. So you need less ferts, less CO2 etc.

IME, such tanks operate much easier with more wiggle room.
The tank is slowly heading down in temp today.
E. hydropiper is the only plant that seemed affected.

I thought maybe it was the algae stix that say and caused a localize anaerobic zone or something, but with 500+ shrimp and the other fish and plecos, not likely.

Temp is rarely discussed. 75 is a good temp to shoot for, if the fish can handle it without getting ick.

Once they recover, I'll knock the temp down a bit more, for now I'm going to lower it to 82F.

I'll post some pics of the E hydropiper response.
It's well known to be a cool water/habitat plant.

So I do not think folks will do well with Altums and Discus using it, but if it does okay at 82F, then perhaps.

I know it does pretty good at 78F.

Hydrothrix did better at lower temp and Lace plant does also, but I like them and need the 82F range for the south American species I like.
If you are big shrimp person, then the 75-72F range is great.


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> Speak of the devil.
> 
> I recently (2 days ago) bumped the temp up and the heater over shot , said 82F, actually was 87F. The new Red Phantoms had a touch of ick on one one or two, so I added MG and upped the temp some. I think it was about 78F or so. The 70 gal is 73-75F typically.
> 
> The E hydropiper started to brown out in a few patches.
> 
> In general, lower temps make every thing easier and the metabolism rates slow down. So you need less ferts, less CO2 etc.
> 
> IME, such tanks operate much easier with more wiggle room.
> The tank is slowly heading down in temp today.
> E. hydropiper is the only plant that seemed affected.
> 
> I thought maybe it was the algae stix that say and caused a localize anaerobic zone or something, but with 500+ shrimp and the other fish and plecos, not likely.
> 
> Temp is rarely discussed. 75 is a good temp to shoot for, if the fish can handle it without getting ick.
> 
> Once they recover, I'll knock the temp down a bit more, for now I'm going to lower it to 82F.
> 
> I'll post some pics of the E hydropiper response.
> It's well known to be a cool water/habitat plant.
> 
> So I do not think folks will do well with Altums and Discus using it, but if it does okay at 82F, then perhaps.
> 
> I know it does pretty good at 78F.
> 
> Hydrothrix did better at lower temp and Lace plant does also, but I like them and need the 82F range for the south American species I like.
> If you are big shrimp person, then the 75-72F range is great.


This is where we part ways a bit. I keep fish with my plants, not the other way around. If the fish don't like it they move on.  It drives my wife a bit nuts, though I think she's used to it now. "Hey, where are those fish I liked?"

Regarding temp and the E. hydropiper that would explain my observations. The stuff I got from you a few weeks ago was very healthy, but now it is growing slightly larger leaves than it had when I got it from you. This could also be due to lighting, but ours is probably close enough to rule out that factor.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> This is where we part ways a bit. I keep fish with my plants, not the other way around. If the fish don't like it they move on.  It drives my wife a bit nuts, though I think she's used to it now. "Hey, where are those fish I liked?"
> 
> Regarding temp and the E. hydropiper that would explain my observations. The stuff I got from you a few weeks ago was very healthy, but now it is growing slightly larger leaves than it had when I got it from you. This could also be due to lighting, but ours is probably close enough to rule out that factor.


I can bring most any aquatic weed back to life if things go south, I cannot reanimate or bring a fish back to life. I harbor little guilt when a plant dries or is trimmed, but a fish I do every time.

I stopped the melting brown out when I dropped the temp back to 80F.
I'll see how recovery goes, but everything else is just fine as can be.
Well, I figure out how well plants can handle temp stresses at least. (But certainly more headache!)

If I'm testing on purpose..okay.........but temp stress tends to toast most of the stand of plants. 

Then the entire tank goes to heck.

Did this with Starougyne pushing it to 88-90F for 2 weeks.
Th stumps all grow back, but it takes a good 2-3 weeks for that and then a 1-2 week delay. Given the $ I get for those plants..........I better be sure the test is rather informative and something I really want to know.

Many do not test for this reason, shrimp breeders,Discus folks etc, Reef SPS folks etc. The mistakes and other issues are what led me to richer dosing, I just did not know I was making a "mistake"...yet. 

So I also have this attitude as well, if the CRS SS grade shrimp make it in my EI dosed tank, great..........or they all die or start to die and I remove them fast to a holding tank. This did not happen. 

Now I have SSS grade CRS shrimp and sold 300 Fire shrimp this week alone.
So both approaches can work.

Since I have an infestation of shrimp, I can afford to torture and test and if they make it, great! If not? the dead ones are fed to fish. I have less feeling for shrimp. I actually try and kill the low grades often.

Moral inconsistency regarding life......... I do have.


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> I think we can rule out light for our tanks, Antbugs can post his measures(it's a Tek I think), ATI lights are kick butt.


Light could be it, but I've never heard of light stunting a plant. It's normally the other way around. I have a double T5NO light on my tank. Cheapo Odysea light. My PAR readings are 40-44 at sub and around 120 at the water line. I've since added a pink plant T8 bulb, but it might increase my PAR by 5 at the sub. It's more for me as it makes my reds look redder.

Could light be the culprit? What about O2?


----------



## plantbrain

Light will aid in recovery and faster growth etc.

But I do not think it's a factor in the reduced leaf size, stunting etc.
My bet is still on CO2.

O2, not with plants really. Bacteria indirectly and fish etc.


----------



## jcgd

I've only ever stunted plants with too much light and not enough
Co2/ferts/both because the plant tries to grow and doesn't have the necessary building blocks. Like a bodybuilder who pushes hard but doesn't eat/ sleep. Eventually you plateau, lose gains or get sick.


----------



## Em85

This tank is beautiful! 



plantbrain said:


> I vodka dose like the reefers


Wow! Never heard of that before. That is interesting. Very interesting.

So it enhances the color of the shrimp? How often and how much do you dose?


----------



## plantbrain

jcgd said:


> I've only ever stunted plants with too much light and not enough
> Co2/ferts/both because the plant tries to grow and doesn't have the necessary building blocks. Like a bodybuilder who pushes hard but doesn't eat/ sleep. Eventually you plateau, lose gains or get sick.


True.

If you are going to see issues with poor CO2 or dosing ferts, it'll be under higher lighting.


----------



## plantbrain

The E hydropiper after the melt back from high temps: the bare spots/holes are where it melts and turned brown.
It's already growing back though.











There is also some hair non branching algae that bloomed as a result of the tempo increase.

Plenty of light, so a nice temp spike seems to be one method to induce algae.
Tank was clean prior and had all sorts of work done on it, it was only after the high temp at 88F for 2 days did it appear a couple days after.


Many species of plants and seeds have a sprouting or germination protocol that includes a period of cool/cold water temps, followed by a hot along with plenty of light. Temp is rarely ever discussed.

The bloom has settled down and it'll take another 2-3 weeks to beat it back on some plants. Many species are unaffected. Fine needled plants tend to get it, UG got it good/more than any of the others. A little Green dust algae also seems to have appeared. 

Generally, once an algae spore is germinated/induced, it is committed to making a go of it. So you have to go after it aggressively to correct the issue.


----------



## DennisSingh

plantbrain said:


> Generally, once an algae spore is germinated/induced, it is committed to making a go of it. So you have to go after it aggressively to correct the issue.


Go after it how? What techniques?


----------



## plantbrain

Remove it. 
Kill it.

Trim the plants that are infested, consider removing those plants altogether and return them later. Attack them often, more water changes. Try and grow your way out of the infested parts. If the new algae growth declines, stops etc......then you can beat any algae.

If your plants do not grow.......well, you cannot do much of this method.


----------



## DennisSingh

word


----------



## plantbrain

There's no trickery involved, it's just like a garden, you get in and weed.


----------



## Mr.Desert_scape

Your tank is amazing Tom! All the color is great. I hope to get some more color in my tank soon.


----------



## plantbrain

So the green hair algae attacked pretty massively after the temp spike.

It has not gotten into my other tanks even though I've transferred with water and my hands, certainly enough by now to infect them. The UG took most of the hit. I'd just replanted it so that's likely why. It was also in a region of high current so that may have something to do with it.

Rather than trying to save the UG, I simply removed it it and placed in the dark in a shallow tray. I replanted the area with Elatine triandra which can out grow most any algae. The shallow tray in the dark will not kill the hair algae. But I can test and try other treatments to see and take a little bit each time and see.

the other plants are only mildly infested and I removed most of the visible hairs today and did another 70% water changes and I'll do another on Weds and then another on Sat etc. I trimmed a few rows and shorten things so any old leaves are now trimmed off.

Preening and pulling off algae is labor intensive, but it can work, but the CO2/light/dosing is good and the water changes are very large and frequent and loss causes are removed. Removing a species that gets an algae real bad might seem radical...........it's not, I already made plenty of $ off the UG and I can simply buy some more for 20-40$ for a good size amount and be back in business in a month. 

So it's not some huge deal.

Excel and algicides will not hurt this algae also, I'll try with the UG I have, but I've never found anything that works to date and have tried dozens or more of various snake oils over the years. I tend to be very harsh towards such products, but having tested so many......I'd be really surprised if I found one that did work and did not kill plants/livestock.


----------



## kwheeler91

peroxide? Never had ug before so dont know how it would take it or if it kills hair algae.


----------



## plantbrain

kwheeler91 said:


> peroxide? Never had ug before so dont know how it would take it or if it kills hair algae.


It's fine for a little BBA here and there. So is a toothbrush or fingernails.
There is VERY little selectivity between fine leaves and green algal filaments. 

Moss, fine needled stem plants, fine leaf stem and foreground plants........these are not much different. Excel does not work.

No general biocide does. Which are most of the algicides.........so attacking the algae manually and trimming and exporting the algae, harassing it.......provide optimal conditions for plants etc........removing plants that are highly susceptible, that algae gets entangled, etc.......


----------



## R33 GTR

Hi tom awesome tank you got there. I have a question how many inches you have in the front and back?


----------



## plantbrain

r33 gtr said:


> hi tom awesome tank you got there. I have a question how many inches you have in the front and back?


30"


----------



## plantbrain

algae update,m the removal of the UG and pestering the remainder is looking quite good, better than I expected, few plants have any left. UG took a hit, but that's fine. Recovery is doing very well and I'll pick at the rest over the next 1-2 weeks and get rid of most all of it. 

Most of this was a simple process: large water changes, good dosing thereafter, picking at the plants and pulling /hand removal, added some excl in the problem areas while doing a water change while draining the tank, then another water change following day fluffing up any dirt. I plants the Elatine in place of UG till the UG slowly fills back in.

So the area is not fallow.

In many cases, such algae blooms would spell disaster. Few folks seem to be able to control algae issues when they come up like this. But most of of it elbow grease and basic stuff, but you need to be able to grow the plants well.

Then algae issues are not nearly as intense if you jump on them asap and have everything else in order.


----------



## R33 GTR

Hi tom sorry I meant how many inches of AS you have front and back?


----------



## jcgd

Are you asking the depth of the substrate, or the width of the plant-less row around the perimeter?


----------



## Jay_NMD

i think he means the depth of the AS


----------



## DennisSingh

You set a good example for all Tom, rookies should actually be able to grow plants now.


----------



## plantbrain

Oh, the Syngonanthus Uaupes I got recently from is flowering. You can where I added it in the top left in the downoi row.













Hair algae is on the run, I managed to beat it up good and a couple more water changes and harassment should do the trick. This often gets many folks, but I was aggressive and it paid off. IME, this is one of the tougher species of algae to deal with. It's a bit like Spirogyra and is very plant like. But basic care methods took care of it. I added more R sunset, I have about 40 tops now/or that will come in and grow in a few days. This will look nice and be $$ wise plant choice(easy to sell), manageable, and look nice. All good qualities. S uaupes will do well with time and I'll add more somewhere as it grows. I removed the UG, but replaced it with E triandra for now, I have a few UG strands that are algae free and will recultivate from there.


----------



## plantbrain

Here's a close up of just how bad the algae got real fast:










Plants like this are a lost cause and not worth the work, just toss them, start with new weeds. The plants next to them barely got any algae.
You can see the pic in the prior post, not of those plants have any of them or other issues.


----------



## plantbrain

The Mini pellia did not adhere to the wood well, fragments easily etc.
I can use mesh and lave rock, but.........
I'll try something else for now.

The Erios are recovering/transitioning from emergent to submersed growth still. 
I'll let the downoi grow out more and wrap the front Left corner. 
Rotala sunset continues growing very well and will make a nice thicket of red on that side.
About 1/2 my Erio Type 3's are doing poor, but the others are doing well. Crowding might be one possible cause, CO2/ferts and light are all the same, current might be one issues.
I might phase this plant out and go with type 1 or some other fine needle green plant or a Syngonanthus species. 
UG will grow back in eventually, I have a few strands left.
I'm going to try the A cardinalis on the Right side, it got a little cooked under the lights, so I might move it back to the far rear.


----------



## jkan0228

What are you going to replace the mini pellia with?


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> What are you going to replace the mini pellia with?


Not sure yet. Ideas? I could go with some odd ball moss, Fissidens comes to mind, but tends to attract lots of muck and detritus. Dwarf clover is not going to work well either. 
Sygnonanthus uaupes is an idea. Some Erios I have outside could work, but I'll need different wood pieces to play around with that.


Weeping moss and Monosoleium are about all I can think of really.
I'll need flat pieces of wood for the Monosolieum though. It's a bit easier to remove than moss and has a different texture. 

I could pull the Hygro araguaia up front and place the Alternathera cardinalis in the rear corner, it would look good there and likes the shadier spots. 

I also might remove the Rotala wallichii and go back to R macrandra or something similar.


----------



## plantbrain

The R sunset I got from Aaron on Monday have already sprouted new tips as I cut the stems in 1/2 and replanted both the tops and the bottom's. In a couple of weeks, this will make a nice thick dramatic group. Easier than L inclinata and some of the other species I've tried in this spot.


----------



## plantbrain

UG that I removed was set aside in a shallow tray with 1' or so of tank water and left in the dark in the Garage. Plants are fine, and the algae is as well

Tomorrow I'll do a H2O2 dip and see how much the UG in it's weaken state, as well as the algae, can handle.

Before:









After










Right now:


----------



## plantbrain

Yanked the Erio goais in the front right.

Took some of the Hygro araguaia and added in that space. 

See where this goes.

I'll still need another plant in the right front corner to contrast.


----------



## 150EH

The tank looks great and the contrasting colors really make the tank, even the greens are all slightly different.


----------



## plantbrain

150EH said:


> The tank looks great and the contrasting colors really make the tank, even the greens are all slightly different.


It'll be awhile before I get it to a happy place, but it's an ongoing process. 
I'll need to fatten up and try a few different plantings and see how each plant does in each spot. 

The Rotala sunset has a nice spot now.

I'm considering replacing the Erio type 3 with a Sygonanthus. But.........I may end up replacing Blyxa in my 180 with those.


----------



## plantbrain

The R sunset is growing well. Fish have colored up, but they blend in with the red colors too much. I'd figure the shrimp might, but they are more cryptic.

Likely going to change fish. I might add them to the 70 Gal, but not likely also, too cool and that's where the CRS are. I do not care if the fish eat the Fires, but not the CRS's.

I took some of the H araguaia from the back and it looks good up front. 
Also took some of the UG that was infested with hair algae and after 1.5 weeks and nearly melting away, I replanted it. 

Color and contrast wise, adding the P stellata where the Type 3 Erio is might be nice. I may remove the Erio Type 3 and add that to my 180 where it can keep growing taller. 

I'll replace with Hydrothrix or Syngonanthus or similar after messing with P stellata. P stellata will do well no matter where I place it in this tank.
The Downoi is growing faster and fattening up well and it'll form a nice dense thicket there. 

Algae is still slowly dying off.
Some got loose in my 70 Gal and I've been whacking it back and doing the water changes. Still trying the H2O2, but it does not seem to have a lot of effect even after 2-3 good treatments right on the algae.
Does not harm the plants. 10mls /10 gal of water into a still tank with no current using a pipette and a water change after 15-20 minutes.
I do not think it's doing that much, but there is no control. Does not cost much and is safe at this rate and does no harm to plants.
Still, most of the effort is on maintaining the tank well and growing plants.
That NEVER changes.


----------



## Overfloater

Looking good Tom. That sunset does look healthy.


----------



## antbug

Nice update. I agree, the R. sunset looks really nice in this tank. I'm ready for some when you are. Just let me know.


----------



## @[email protected]

have you tried spot dosing excel instead of hydrogen peroxide? when needed, i tend to spot dose all the affected areas of the tank with excel at 2x the dose i would use if i were just dosing the tank (like after a water change) with the filter/pumps off. after 15 min i turn the pumps filter back on and leave the excel in.
none of the plants died on me, but e. belem and UG cannot be spot dosed directly or they will melt away and slowly regrow from the roots. they didnt mind the 2x dose in the tank after other plants were dosed though.


----------



## plantbrain

Overfloater said:


> Looking good Tom. That sunset does look healthy.


It gets pretty pearly late in the day, not just after a water change.

I must have 40-50 tops now.
Needs trimmed and then replanted. 
The next grow out will look like a standard full row finally.
I made some sod cuts in the Elatine hydropiper that looks pretty nice and redid some of the others.

I have some Cuphea coming which is a nice red plant, also have some Rotala mexicana from Australia I've been wanting to grow for a few years now as Dave Wilson told me about a long time ago who collects and sells native Australian plants out of Darwin , NT, Australia. 

I also may add the R macrandra back and see. the Alternanthera cardinalis is doing well and is actually the true red biotype. Wish I could have gotten more of it.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Nice update. I agree, the R. sunset looks really nice in this tank. I'm ready for some when you are. Just let me know.


After the holiday weekend, stop by.


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> have you tried spot dosing excel instead of hydrogen peroxide? when needed, i tend to spot dose all the affected areas of the tank with excel at 2x the dose i would use if i were just dosing the tank (like after a water change) with the filter/pumps off. after 15 min i turn the pumps filter back on and leave the excel in.
> none of the plants died on me, but e. belem and UG cannot be spot dosed directly or they will melt away and slowly regrow from the roots. they didnt mind the 2x dose in the tank after other plants were dosed though.


I have a tank full of E belem I got some from Antbug for the 70 Gal, so it would have to be something milder than Excel.

This tank got the same H2O2 treatments and the algae is virtually gone, while the 70 Gal has not changed much even with no flow and syringe applications for 15-20 minutes, then a water change + and doing this once every 2-3 days. 

In the 120 gal, the results might suggest H2O2, but the 70 Gal shows and tells a VERY different story. One would be sold and rush to judgement if they just had the 120 Gal as a reference.

Why did it appear to work in the 120 vs not in the 70?
It CANNOT be due to the H2O2, because the treatment methods are in fact direct and the same.

This is a very high dosing right on the alga.

This will easily kill off BBA or other species, but not the green algae.
Some other difference......... is responsible. Likely CO2. The light is 3-4X lower in the 70 Gal also, so ........plants are well established in both tanks.

As a preventative measure, I cleaned both sponge filters, the 120 's was much dirtier.

I lowered the CO2 in the 70 last week, this increased the green algae growth, so I lower the light and also added more CO2 back.
Now it's slowly going away.

I'd say there might be some minor effect on this green algae due to H2O2.
But the main issue is still the basics of good plant growth: CO2/light/ferts good water changes and trim, care etc.


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> After the holiday weekend, stop by.


:thumbsup:


----------



## jgb77

plantbrain said:


> ...I have some Cuphea coming which is a nice red plant, also have some Rotala mexicana from Australia I've been wanting to grow for a few years now as Dave Wilson told me about a long time ago who collects and sells native Australian plants out of Darwin , NT, Australia....


Are you talking about the red var. of mexicana? I hope so...
The mexicana will be a big seller, there are many people who have been looking for it for quite a while, including me 
This is a true rarity, as opposed to some things which people label as rare to fetch a higher price.
John


----------



## dantra

jgb77 said:


> This is a true rarity, as opposed to some things which people label as rare to fetch a higher price.
> John


Truer words have never been spoken. It's nauseating what people call rare that are ridiculously priced. Is it me or has the hobby taken a turn towards greed as opposed to having a love/passion for it.

The quality of plants being sold has diminished while demanding a premium price however those whom genuinely have a passion for it tend to sell great plants and are very generous with their portions. 

Tom having purchase from you a few times, you definitely fall into the latter category. You certainly have a knack for growing weeds.

Dan


----------



## plantbrain

jgb77 said:


> Are you talking about the red var. of mexicana? I hope so...
> The mexicana will be a big seller, there are many people who have been looking for it for quite a while, including me
> This is a true rarity, as opposed to some things which people label as rare to fetch a higher price.
> John


Well, I semi doubt it's the red type, but I can ask Dave in Oz, he might be able along with a few other rare species.

But, we will find out soon enough with pics.


----------



## plantbrain

dantra said:


> Truer words have never been spoken. It's nauseating what people call rare that are ridiculously priced. Is it me or has the hobby taken a turn towards greed as opposed to having a love/passion for it.
> 
> The quality of plants being sold has diminished while demanding a premium price however those whom genuinely have a passion for it tend to sell great plants and are very generous with their portions.
> 
> Tom having purchase from you a few times, you definitely fall into the latter category. You certainly have a knack for growing weeds.
> 
> Dan


Well, I try to be upfront about most things, if not, I try to make amends and typically just forgot.


----------



## plantbrain

Going to trim up some of the R sunset and save a few nicer stems for Antbug.

Also need to see about where to put a few of the other new species, and what I am going to do about the Erio Type 3. It is recovering well, albeit slower than most species and took a hit after the heat shot up to 90F. Recovery is always excellent even if something goes wrong in this tank so far.

I have Hydrothrix, Erio setaceum Type 1 also I could replace it with, but I do like the larger lorax tree type tops on the Erio type 3.

Still, it might be time to try something else.

I also removed the R wallichii, one of my favorite plants, but not worth a dime for sales and it does grow quite fast and needed uprooting to look nice for a trim method. 

Elatine hydropiper submersed grown is far superior to the emergent tissue culture stuff. Ships better, more robust, adapts better. Sold a fair amount now.

UG has been replanted, hopefully it will recover fast.

I have learned to beat the Elatine triandra back to a smaller area to get a nice mound look. I think it could be used like Azaleas or Tamamoro along with moss of Pellia etc with good trimming.

Need to rework the back Left corner some also. Not quite sure where I'm going with that section, it's the darkest part of the tank.


----------



## chad320

Have you considered Rotala butterfly for the front right? It looks good and red and is small. I have also been growing Hydrothrix and its a nice looking plant and could look great where you are considering the type 3.


----------



## Hyzer

chad320 said:


> Have you considered Rotala butterfly for the front right?


I too would be interested to see what R. butterfly would look like in this tank. 

The lawn of Elatine hydropiper is looking so lush. Have you considered expanding that all the way across the foreground?


----------



## plantbrain

chad320 said:


> Have you considered Rotala butterfly for the front right? It looks good and red and is small. I have also been growing Hydrothrix and its a nice looking plant and could look great where you are considering the type 3.


I had it already, it matches too close to the R sunset which is frankly a nicer better suited plant.

I have some Cuphea and I am going to see where that takes me. I'll also see about some Rotala mexicana red from Oz. I have a source there. I'd like to replace the pantanal with that.


----------



## plantbrain

Hyzer said:


> I too would be interested to see what R. butterfly would look like in this tank.
> 
> The lawn of Elatine hydropiper is looking so lush. Have you considered expanding that all the way across the foreground?


Not really, it has a good size area and I can harvest and sell from there fairly easily now.

There are other species I like and use for contrast and do not want it to take over the entire space in the front.


----------



## plantbrain

Some new pics:

I removed a lot of plants from the rear, I'll add some Rotala macrandra back perhaps.
I removed the Erio type 3 and put the Hydrothrix back in a row instead as it gardens better over time.
Erios do not like to be crowded too much, that's about all I could figure, the light was plenty and when I placed then in less crowded spaces/spots in the tank, they did nicer.
Also removed the Erio Type 1 as well. I have some Rotala mexicana, but likely the green type, not the red. Also got some Cuphea. See where that goes and also the Bacopa "araguaia".
I cut a linear strip of sod from the E hydropiper and sold that off. Added some S. uaupes, I may add a couple more Synognanthus biotypes/species. 
Did the Erio's, did the Tonina, etc. Time to come back to the Synognanthus perhaps. See which one of the group fits best in some location and stick with one of the 3-4 types available.
Tonina lotus blossom is nice so I'll keep that one, some of the Erio cinereum like group are nice also, I may add Erio aussie type II back as I have some in a tray outside doing very well.

I'd like to get more of the Alternanthera cardinalis as this variety has done well under the higher light. I placed some of the other reineckii under shade and it did well, so did the Nesaea pedicillata. There's just too much light for those 2 species it seems unless they are shaded and placed in a darker spot.
There's not much UG left over from the algae issues, but a few. So it'll be interesting to see how long recovery takes from these 1/2 dead bits to the nice thick rugs.


----------



## 2in10

Looks great, I will enjoy watching the UG recover


----------



## plantbrain

2in10 said:


> Looks great, I will enjoy watching the UG recover


Not as much as myself
Since I managed to kill off most and get it covered in algae.


----------



## chad320

plantbrain said:


> I had it already, it matches too close to the R sunset which is frankly a nicer better suited plant.
> 
> I have some Cuphea and I am going to see where that takes me. I'll also see about some Rotala mexicana red from Oz. I have a source there. I'd like to replace the pantanal with that.


When you get ready to dump the Pantanal, I might like a couple stems. It would be nice to see the R. mexicana 'red' in your tank. Ive never seen it grown good.For Syngonanthus sp. have you tried 'madiera' ? I just got a few beat up stems of this one and they are just starting to grow a bit. Do you have pics of your Cuphea? I have this one too and it grows REALLY slow and stays mostly green. Am I missing something here?


----------



## AaronT

chad320 said:


> When you get ready to dump the Pantanal, I might like a couple stems. It would be nice to see the R. mexicana 'red' in your tank. Ive never seen it grown good.For Syngonanthus sp. have you tried 'madiera' ? I just got a few beat up stems of this one and they are just starting to grow a bit. Do you have pics of your Cuphea? I have this one too and it grows REALLY slow and stays mostly green. Am I missing something here?


The Cuphea is a tricky plant. It seems to like soft water as it is very closely related to Rotala.


----------



## plantbrain

I just got the Cuphea. the R mexicana I talked to Dave recently and some other folks in Oz, who have collected it themselves in natural systems.

I have some of the green, but they have grown that also and say the red is really a true biotype difference.

It will not be easy to get.
I like the Colombian red plant here: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eobqjjYxkIs

Macarenia clavigera

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/world_of_wonders/2011/02/the_worlds_most_beautiful_river.html


----------



## plantbrain

chad320 said:


> For Syngonanthus sp. have you tried 'madiera' ? I just got a few beat up stems of this one and they are just starting to grow a bit.


I have not tried that or the "Lago grandre", All the others I've grown into large nice forest.


----------



## Fishies_in_Philly

the colors in this tank never cease to amaze me tom. i had some cuphea, but unfortunately i killed it during a bleach dip. duh! lol. did you ever get the ludwigia sengalesis you were looking for? 
also, is the rotala mexicana you are getting the same as R. mexicana 'araguaia'?


----------



## plantbrain

Fishies_in_Philly said:


> the colors in this tank never cease to amaze me tom. i had some cuphea, but unfortunately i killed it during a bleach dip. duh! lol. did you ever get the ludwigia sengalesis you were looking for?
> also, is the rotala mexicana you are getting the same as R. mexicana 'araguaia'?


I have some L senegalensis, it was okay, not really what I was looking for at the time.

Araguaia is a Spanish South American name, R mexiciana red is from the NT in Australia. There maybe other forms/types, /biotypes elsewhere, but this is one location I know that the plant grows naturally like I like.


----------



## Fishies_in_Philly

gotcha. thanks for the info


----------



## Jiinx

Sorry, total newb here, but where is tom's plant selling thread? Where does one get such stunning plants from?


----------



## audioaficionado

Jiinx said:


> Sorry, total newb here, but where is tom's plant selling thread? Where does one get such stunning plants from?


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/search.php?searchid=6060073


----------



## florini

Jiinx, I think Steve wanted to give you the link to all Tom's posts, but that link doesn't work. Here's one to all the threads started by Tom:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/search.php?do=finduser&u=1333&starteronly=1


----------



## Jiinx

thanks!


----------



## plantbrain

Fishies_in_Philly said:


> gotcha. thanks for the info


No prob


----------



## audioaficionado

florini said:


> Jiinx, I think Steve wanted to give you the link to all Tom's posts, but that link doesn't work. Here's one to all the threads started by Tom:
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/search.php?do=finduser&u=1333&starteronly=1


Worked yesterday. Lets see if your link is permanent. Mine apparently expired after a day. I think it has something to do with the forum search data base.


----------



## plantbrain

Cuphea is bouncing back after transport.
Looks to be a nice little red plant.

UG is painfully growing back. 

Replaced the Erio Type 3 with Hydrothrix which fills the space and looks much better. 

I'd like to get some true A. cardinalis to plump up the Red larger leaf replacement for the L. perunesis. New growth is looking nice even under such high light, unlike A reineckii.

I'll post new pics tomorrow of the following day.


----------



## plantbrain

I need to rearrange the color scheme in the back and on the right side. After the Tonina, I'll have the A cardinalis or perhaps the Cuphea, not sure, I like the Cuphea though. I'll be working with the A cardinalis and the Cuphea more, for sure.

I'll add some more S. belem in the rear and remove the rest of the Erio setaceum. I'll add the R wallichii back or maybe go with the Myriophyllum tuberculatum, that was a nicer red copper color, not so pink but not the freaky mauve color either. Easier to trim and manage than wallichii.

Rotala mexicana might be a good replacement in the back corn on the Left side. I have a few stems there now. 

Other changes: the Ech vesuvius might be changed for the L pantanal var "twisty" or I might keep the Ech and work the Twisty in somewhere in the rear. 












Close up of the Rotala sunset from Aaron and Antbug.









You can see the diminutive Cuphea with some small reddish tops in the far right a few inches back next to the L peruinesis.


----------



## CL

This is certainly a tank to be proud of, Tom. I love the r. sunset!


----------



## plantbrain

CL said:


> This is certainly a tank to be proud of, Tom. I love the r. sunset!


Yes, but having each group fat and fully filled in is often a challenge. The UG is growing back but slow.....E hydropiper is slow to recover after the cooking I did a few weeks back.

Some week to week progressions:




























In some rows, I trimmed(L pantanal, L red, removed the UG, Hacke dthe E triandra back) but you can see strong growth from the Downoi, the Hydrothrix, the Tonina, Pennywort, R sunset, Hygro araguaia etc.


----------



## plantbrain

Oh Yes, the Nesaea pedicillata..........is growing nicely but needed shaded to do so. I had it about 10-12 years ago in a 15 Gal and it grew very very well with 4 old 20W bulbs in plain sand and EI dosing.


----------



## @[email protected]

what happened to your n. pedicillata in high light?
im asking cuz i used to have it and loved it, but whenever it grew to high the growth got weird. i upped my dosing, but it didnt seem too really help.

im still in love with the e. hydropiper. its such a great looking plant. i had an idea id like to try with it in my next tank... just keep growing it so i have someone i can buy it from


----------



## plantbrain

Nesaea stunted tip growth under the higher lighting.

CO2 cannot go up much more, O2 is also very high, so that's out.
Nutrients being too low cannot be it.

Light being too high? Perhaps.

I also had some Nesaea red type or crassilius which does well in my 180 Gal buried among the Blyxa and shaded etc.
Excellent color and slow growth. Stuff just does not appear to like insanely high light, but a shaded condition.

Emergent can handle high light though.


----------



## waterfaller1

It looks like a painting...amazing!


----------



## The Trigger

Yeah this tank really is amazing. Pictures of this tank pop up all the time from random searches I've done, and for obvious reasons . Awesome work Tom


----------



## plantbrain

Daily water changes and H2O2 spot treating seems to have eradicated the hair algae after the CO2 gas tank ran out for 3 days. I caught it finally, after algae was popping up everywhere.

I did 3 days worth of daily water changes at 70%.
Then while the tank was draining, I dosed 120 mls.

At low water, I dosed another 60mls and then refilled it a few min later.
Added new CO2 gas tank and adjusted the CO2.

All is fine after 4 days.

No harm at all to any plants.


----------



## crazydaz

I'm sorry, Tom: you dosed 120mL and 60mL's of what, exactly? Peroxide, Excel?


----------



## antbug

crazydaz said:


> I'm sorry, Tom: you dosed 120mL and 60mL's of what, exactly? Peroxide, Excel?


h2o2, peroxide.


----------



## crazydaz

D'OH!!!! I'm an idiot! :icon_redf How did I not see that!!! 

Sorry Tom, and thanks Antbug! I'll get my eyes re-examined!


----------



## plantbrain

This method seems to be pretty effective and has no impact on Shrimp, sensitive plants, I have Fissidens and it did not take a hit. Hydrothrix either which is a hyper sensitive plant to oxidizers etc.


Tank is coming along very nice after all the tending it got recently.


----------



## TankZen

Wow colors are amazing!


----------



## plantbrain

TankZen said:


> Wow colors are amazing!


I have some new color combos I'll be using in the coming month or two, still trying to source more A. cardinalis. The L. vertilliata var. "curly" will also make a nice addition with a metallic yellow color.


----------



## Jeffww

Looking great, Tom. Whenever I end up making tanks that have tons of plants in them I always end up switching them out constantly...something always bugs me or I see a new plant I like better than an old plant. Go figure.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, as long as you can control that tendency, and have a general frame work, then it can work.

I've not seen anyone's tank that's done this on the web, I've seen some Dutch tanks that could do this........and perhaps have etc.........but often they have a grow tank in the back somewhere and once the plants have fattened up, then they add to the main display tank.

I do not have that nor want that, extra work and with 5 tanks, too much for me right now.


----------



## plantbrain

Caught most of the Red Phantons, they are awesome fish, but blend too well with this scape.

A silvery fish, rummie noses, likely will be tried next.


----------



## accordztech

plantbrain said:


> This method seems to be pretty effective and has no impact on Shrimp, sensitive plants, I have Fissidens and it did not take a hit. Hydrothrix either which is a hyper sensitive plant to oxidizers etc.
> 
> 
> Tank is coming along very nice after all the tending it got recently.


I have shot my shrimp directly with h202 and they arent affected by it. Sometimes where I treat bba, a shrimp will come to that spot lol.


----------



## plantbrain

Rummies are a very nice additions and appropriate.
Added 100. Very well behaved and a nice schooling alternative to cardinals.


----------



## CryptKeeper54

Awesome tank. Very inspirational. Out of the kindness of their heart, I wish a professional freelance videographer would make documentary style vids of your tanks and post them on youtube for all the world to enjoy. Keep up the great work.


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> Rummies are a very nice additions and appropriate.
> Added 100. Very well behaved and a nice schooling alternative to cardinals.


Mine are nice and fat already. They do jump though. I've lost a hand full already. I noticed right when the light shuts off is when they tend to jump the best. Maybe with your dimmer this will be a non issue. 

On another note, tat sunset you gave me is acting really weird. Only two stems (and the one I had before) are doing good. The other 7-8 stems melted away. The stem itself started to decay and I couldn't stop it. It got me thinking about doing fresh cuts on stems before you plant them. Do you do this? You know like a fresh cut on flowers with you put them in a vase. I never though if it before. What are your thoughts?


----------



## Overfloater

I've had similar experience with rummies. They are very darty, especially right after the lights go out.


----------



## plantbrain

Overfloater said:


> I've had similar experience with rummies. They are very Darry, especially right after the lights go out.


None have jumped as or yet, but as they get fat and strong, they might change, I find Cards on the floor every so often, they tend to be the nicer large healthy ones too.

A night time screen might be in order.


----------



## plantbrain

CryptKeeper54 said:


> Awesome tank. Very inspirational. Out of the kindness of their heart, I wish a professional freelance videographer would make documentary style vids of your tanks and post them on youtube for all the world to enjoy. Keep up the great work.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3VNwfNtNA0


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> On another note, tat sunset you gave me is acting really weird. Only two stems (and the one I had before) are doing good. The other 7-8 stems melted away. The stem itself started to decay and I couldn't stop it. It got me thinking about doing fresh cuts on stems before you plant them. Do you do this? You know like a fresh cut on flowers with you put them in a vase. I never though if it before. What are your thoughts?


I think fresh cuts might be effective vs not(eg, rooted uncut stems).
Might be what we might not expect, but........might be what is.

I've had a few turn black and die off, while the others right next to those do excellent.

It may be fussy to replanting methods. The stumps always seem to regrow and sprout new tops easily. I cut with scissors typically. I'll keep a close eye and see.

Not sure what or why, but trim methods likely have something to do with it.
That would be my guess.


----------



## jcgd

plantbrain said:


> I think fresh cuts might be effective vs not(eg, rooted uncut stems).
> Might be what we might not expect, but........might be what is.
> 
> I've had a few turn black and die off, while the others right next to those do excellent.
> 
> It may be fussy to replanting methods. The stumps always seem to regrow and sprout new tops easily. I cut with scissors typically. I'll keep a close eye and see.
> 
> Not sure what or why, but trim methods likely have something to do with it.
> That would be my guess.


I've noticed when adding stems to my tank I sometimes get die off on the trickier species. My kh is moderate, around 4.5 degree but the gh is really, really high. Anyways, some stems tend to melt from the bottom up. I've found it best to re-top the stem if this melting starts and sometimes I may get another shot to save it. It seems like the whole stem will melt away if left to it's own devices but trimming the dead parts can stop the melting.

Also, once the plant is used to my setup, everything can be topped just fine without the odd melt like I get with new plants. I was wondering if adding some rooting hormone to fresh stem cuttings would help with topping and new cutting in general? I was thinking of dosing some root hormone straight to the tank after a good trim, and dipping the bottom of fresh tops. Have you tried this Tom?

Any updates on this tank? It sucks when tanks mature and you don't get the regular updates... I've resorted to reading your journal on every forum I can find, just for the different questions that are asked.


----------



## plantbrain

These plants die from the top down.

I trimmed the row up today and it's nice looking, I get far more production than death and I cull those out. I'm redoing some sections and have some holes, so I'm just growing and waiting for them to fill in. 

Root hormones I have, but why would all the other plants do well? It's just one or two stems out say 5-10 that behave this way. I'll watch this group and get some decent pics of what I'm talking about. 

UG is finally starting to grow back, the Gold nuggets have taken to digging up the E hydropiper. Ludwigia tornado is doing well, S belem etc. 

I need a new red plant.

Might go back to R macrandra.


----------



## jcgd

plantbrain said:


> These plants die from the top down.
> 
> Root hormones I have, but why would all the other plants do well? It's just one or two stems out say 5-10 that behave this way. I'll watch this group and get some decent pics of what I'm talking about.


Oh, I see. I was just shooting in the dark, so if they are dying from the top down the root hormone is a moot point. 

Have you ever dipped your cuttings in root hormone, not just the R. sp 'sunset', but anything? Just wondering if it is worth bothering to do in general; whether it's helpful or not?


----------



## plantbrain

jcgd said:


> Oh, I see. I was just shooting in the dark, so if they are dying from the top down the root hormone is a moot point.
> 
> Have you ever dipped your cuttings in root hormone, not just the R. sp 'sunset', but anything? Just wondering if it is worth bothering to do in general; whether it's helpful or not?


Years ago, but never found any difference, Dr Kane is a friend of mine at UF and he'd done a lot of work with PGR's as they are referred to mostly.......(Plant growth regulators), he published a few things about their effects on aquatic plants. Aquatic weeds are pretty good about producing roots all on their own.......

They do not need any help other than the basics: light/CO2 and ferts.


----------



## plantbrain

I'm waiting for some red plants still so the tank is in transition.











UG is finally coming back and growing as it should.










the Rotala sunset is post trim, I removed all the questionable stems and floated them for a few days in my 180 gal, they stopped their decline and started sprouting new apical tops. I'll keep doing this method for the ones that do poorly after pruning.

Understand: I also prune more often than many. shallow tanks do not allow for long trim intervals.

The Ludwigia tornado and some blurs which are rummie nose.










I removed a lot of plant biomass lats week and sold off a lot.
This gives me a nice clean slate to work with.

I'll likely remove the Curly tornado and replace with either the Erio type 3 which is doing great in my 180, or perhaps the Hygro araguaia. 
Not sure yet.

I'll be adding the Red macrandra back I think. I need a tough red mauve plant that's semi weedy. 
I plan on replacing the Hygro araguaia with Buce's in the rear corner with a slightly similar leaf shape and darker coloration.
They do quite well in that area of the tank. 

CO2 dropped about 3 weeks ago so I've been fixing that and things are back up and doing as they should now.


----------



## styxx

*Gasp!*

OMG! That poor Hydropiper! :icon_surp  I feel so bad for it, lol. I'm sure you'll get it to recover. On the other hand, those rummies look like they're having the time of their lives, hahahaha. I wanted to ask, why does your water always appear cloudy? You can't be still cycling? Or is it just coincidence when you're taking photos - maybe it's the CO2? Just curious...


----------



## jgb77

Styxx, I believe Tom has said a few times, that he takes the majority of his pics during or right after tank maintenance. So the haze is from uprooting and moving things around. Plus the gh booster after water change makes the water hazy as well.
Tom, do you stilll have the Cuphea in there somewhere? I didn't see it anywhere. Also same question about the Syn. Uaupes.

John


----------



## sketch804

...check posts back and you will see some pix with amazing clear water no joke. He usually seems to take pix after he moves plants around or a tank change so it will have a slight haze to it.

either way, the tanks looking nice, just seems kinda empty without the plants in the back ground, but it is nice to have a sorta clean slate to work with, that's always the best! well XXXX that Ludwigia tornado is looking fantastic! does this plant seem to grow easily as most Ludwigia (minus L. 'Pantal')??


----------



## plantbrain

styxx said:


> OMG! That poor Hydropiper! :icon_surp I feel so bad for it, lol. I'm sure you'll get it to recover. On the other hand, those rummies look like they're having the time of their lives, hahahaha. I wanted to ask, why does your water always appear cloudy? You can't be still cycling? Or is it just coincidence when you're taking photos - maybe it's the CO2? Just curious...


What? I stated above I trimmed and removed a lot, that included.
I take pics after I've redone the tank. 

If you uproot and move things around, then do a water change etc.....it'll look this way.


----------



## plantbrain

jgb77 said:


> Styxx, I believe Tom has said a few times, that he takes the majority of his pics during or right after tank maintenance. So the haze is from uprooting and moving things around. Plus the gh booster after water change makes the water hazy as well.
> Tom, do you stilll have the Cuphea in there somewhere? I didn't see it anywhere. Also same question about the Syn. Uaupes.
> 
> John


The Cuphea did great, till the CO2 went out.
Then stunted.

I floated it in the 180, no recovery, I replanted it back in here, but it's a small plant anyhow, might take some time. 

I got it, it was stunted anyhow.
So it recovered then, no reason the same will not occur now.

I actually did not like the S. uaupes and have too many foreground plants. There's just no decent place for it. I might as well use the prostrate rossette Erios. I have belem, manaus and small bit of lago grande which is suitable for the background sections where I have them for now. Those.........I do have space for. 

At one point, I was going to display the green rows of the various species/biotypes in the genus, but I think not. Maybe some day in another tank.

I'll slowly thin out the Belem and manaus and fill in with the Lago grande.
This will take some time.

That's most of my problem with this tank and choosing rare eclectic stuff, not available or only 1-2 stem etc. Same with the Buce's.
But I have enough of those now to work with and they do exceptionally well in my tanks submersed. Most of the sellers grow things emergent, I really do not, but just made a small green house outside for this purpose yesterday actually and then got a 8x 8 ft lexan green house for winter. I'll do the E hydropiper as it will fair nicely in the summer here as well as all but the coldest parts of the year in my climate zone.

This will give me more species of pluck from if I decide to do something different and provide sales with little cost/labor involved. Color is also lacking in the plants in the 120, but they are all recovering well.

Adding a lot of fish and fattening them up + poor CO2+ changing and uprooting many things+ over harvesting got me a little bit, that's okay though, because it made space for other changes.

It would not be overharvesting if..........everything was cooking along as it should.

The tank is very resilient when..the CO2 is correct and not so much when it's not. I've not had to adjust the CO2 much, but this was one time and the only difference is warmer summer weather versus the cooler temps in spring.

Stuff grows faster, less CO2 etc.......

The other tanks do well, I keep the temp down on the 70 Gal CRS SSS tank about 76F.

Teh 180 is warm anyway, about 84 and the CO2 is higher in that tank, about 60-70ppm. This tank sits around 45-50ppm, but I've moved it up about 50-60ppm range now.


----------



## plantbrain

sketch804 said:


> well XXXX that Ludwigia tornado is looking fantastic! does this plant seem to grow easily as most Ludwigia (minus L. 'Pantal')??


It just sort of seemed to sit there, but then it took off, I got it right about the time of the CO2 fired.

It's tripled in size and length and sprouted about 10 new side shoots.

It has a similar feel to Downoi in some ways, I'll move it back to the rear, behind the wood and likely do something else with it.

I wanted to see how it might look in the rows in front. I'm not that happy with it there though. Relatively easy to grow plant though. Not as weedy as pantanal or as fussy. A bit like L cuba but slower growing.


----------



## ps3steveo

Tom what lighting do you have over this, thought I'd ask as it would save me reading 83 pages worth lol?


----------



## styxx

jgb77 said:


> Styxx, I believe Tom has said a few times, that he takes the majority of his pics during or right after tank maintenance. So the haze is from uprooting and moving things around. Plus the gh booster after water change makes the water hazy as well.
> Tom, do you stilll have the Cuphea in there somewhere? I didn't see it anywhere. Also same question about the Syn. Uaupes.
> 
> John


Ah yes, well that makes sense. Tom what temp. do you usually keep this tank at? I've been considering trying some moss but I absolutely hate the dying off period, and I was wondering if the E. Hydropiper will do well in unheated water? I'm sorry but I know that you mentioned your intentions to grow it emergent in your greenhouse outside, but I don't know where "the swamp" is, lol.


----------



## plantbrain

ps3steveo said:


> Tom what lighting do you have over this, thought I'd ask as it would save me reading 83 pages worth lol?


ATI sunpower 48" 8x54W

I run it about 0-100% for 2 hours, then 100% for 4 hours, then 100-0% for 2 hours, CO2 comes on for about 7.25 hours, off the last 45 min basically.


----------



## plantbrain

styxx said:


> Ah yes, well that makes sense. Tom what temp. do you usually keep this tank at? I've been considering trying some moss but I absolutely hate the dying off period, and I was wondering if the E. Hydropiper will do well in unheated water? I'm sorry but I know that you mentioned your intentions to grow it emergent in your greenhouse outside, but I don't know where "the swamp" is, lol.


I was keeping it at about 79F, it has gone up to about 82F recently.
Moss and most plants do better at say 72F, but the fish we keep will get ick and other diseases. Shrimps are better off though.

Some species of fish can do quite well, but we limit ourselves fairly quick.
Rummies are fairly tough, the double trunk elephants are fairly tough temp wise as well, so I'll drop it back later after the rummies fatten up.

The E hydropiper really took off and when I cooked the tank at 90F for a couple of days, it semi recovered by did not like it. Growth came from the outer edge and grew into new areas well, but less so in the middle. Gold nuggets also rip up a little bit here and there and dug under a branch and buried some sections.

If it were just some white clouds and shrimp......then there's little issue.
I do not know the temp tolerances for the plant though, it did recover from the high temps though. 

Many others have had poor results from the local region. I've had better luck than most.


----------



## styxx

Thanks Tom! That's exactly the information that I was looking for...I ask because the tank is in the bedroom close to a A/C vent. I was worried, but since I won't stock with any fish for some time, and RCS are fairly hardy shrimp I figured I could get away with it. We'll see how the E. Hydropiper does, as I usually keep the place around 65-70, but I can always add a my Hydor inline heater to the loop just in case.


----------



## jcgd

Tom, I've got a bunch of questions based off the following quotes:



plantbrain said:


> I use a needle wheel on all cO2 enriched tanks in the sump, and will be adding a demist bubble remover before the return intake.
> 
> Get the same effect but with out the visual un aesthetics, some folks like the mist though.





plantbrain said:


> I was discussing this at meeting recently and with Tu here in CA............
> 
> So how is it I _KNOW_ it is a CO2 issue?
> A lot of experience.
> 
> I have a client's tank set up, actually 3 of them...........and they have full autodosing and reservoir checks. So we KNOW those are stable. Lights are measured and on a timer. So we KNOW those also. Water changes, are automated using a float switch and drain pump also..on a timer, so we KNOW the water changes.
> 
> One thing that happens about once ever 6 months........is..........wait for it..........waiiitttt for it........the CO2 gas tank runs out.
> 
> Son of gun.....algae and slow plant growth, the look is just not right when I come to see the tanks. These tanks all use a needle wheel diffuser. So a snail decided to cram its shell in the impeller, so that was not working, fortunately, because I do have some experience, I run NW's in pairs, so I had some back up. I alos started adding Excel to the dosing system to address any algae issues that are post CO2 systems crashing.
> 
> Large manual water change also helps.
> 
> After a few years and many plant species, you can notice that something is just not quite right, you know what the plant looks like and is suppose to do and behave when the CO2 is correct.
> 
> I'm leary of suggesting 30ppm is optimal for CO2.
> My data has measured CO2 all over the place. Drop checkers suck big toe.
> Disc and diffusers need cleaning and need back pressure.
> NW's has their own issues, but seem the most consistent and responsive.
> 
> Wet/drys, overflows, all those things are another set of issues with CO2.
> Current is a yet another within the structure of a tank, and within the scape that was designed. Current is also affected GREATLY by the pruning routines that the aquarist does. O2 from good water movement, but not so much to drive off CO..is yet another issue.
> 
> All these things relate back to CO2..........it's not just add more CO2, that's the quick response....but that's not the solution in MANY cases. Some give up and run to ferts.........but that's a quitter's approach/lack fo mastery of the gas, and it shows a lack of understanding of how complex CO2 issues can be, stuff you'd might never think of, and some things very humbling. Amano himself can spin stories on CO2 disaster topics.
> 
> If you have not had them, then simply be patient, they will come.
> 
> So I have tried and invented a few different reactors over the years/decades................I think I've cooked this goose pretty well done by now.........but I still rely on the plants to tell me what I need to know. I also have gone as good as I need for the parts. Dual stage regs are great, but require some builds to do. I use the Victor single stages.......and then a nice Needle Valve, Ideal is a great company and they are always available. I get the brass and the Vernier handle, then a nice burket solenoid and an inline FPT low crack pressure Check valve post solenoid and some thick walled Tygon tubing, then a nice Needle wheel small sized pump(Taam Rio 1000 is the smallest I've found with a commercial NW impeller).
> 
> I'm adding some Clear PVC microbubble settling collectors prior to sending via the return pump to see if I can remove some of the bubbles for aesthetics more..........(some folks like them, I really do not).
> So I do not settle for good enough.
> 
> I keep trying to improve it, many things do not work, but a few do.
> 
> Same with the scape, the lighting, etc.





plantbrain said:


> The Taam Rio company will sell you one directly(the impeller, and the pump if you want also).
> 
> I'd get the smallest they offer, a Rio 1000.
> 
> This could be ran into the reactor and then have that outflow feed directly into the return pump.
> 
> A separate return pump might be a wiser method, I've done the same return + a needlewheel impeller on the return, saving space and another pump etc......but then you have mist in the tank.
> 
> You could run the pump and the NW impeller outflow into a post Reactor to remove some of the mist.
> 
> This way you use a larger NW poump since it's also the return pump and you'd need a bit more head pressure to run through the reactor/bubble remover.
> 
> I have both on my tanks, the 120 here has the Lifegard return pump and I just feed it nothing special.......directly into the return. The 70 Gal and the 180........I use separate NW pumps.
> 
> So both work, the only question is do you want mist in the tank or reduce it a fair amount.
> 
> Many ways to go with this, but they all "work".


Okay, so on my 160 gallon I tried feeding the co2 into my 1262 return pump. Not a needle wheel so I was losing a lot of gas to the surface, as any large bubble would rise too fast. It was easy to gas the fish, but I emptied a 10# in three weeks. No leaks, it was the same setup from my old tank and used to last many months.

I then tried running the co2 through a powerhead (to chop it), then down a 2' tube and then into the return pump. Slightly better than straight to the bump, but nothing to write home about.

Now I run through a Eheim 1250 pump into a phosban reactor (think cerges), then to the return pump. Now I'm getting buildup in the reactor so it maxed with a ph drop of about 0.7 or so. I could try a bigger pump, but the next one I have around is a 1260 so my tank would run two 1260s and a 1262. Too many large pumps.

You've said above (any many other times) you prefer the NW pumps. Do you think I would be able to get my levels up higher with a needle wheel? I don't care about the mist, but I can't be burning through 10#s of co2 every few weeks. You said you get around 70ppm on your 180 gallon with a nw. How much co2 are you going through?

I'm not really sure what my levels are. Drop checkers were bright yellow, but with mist I think they are kinda pointless. Mist could be gathering in them. At one point I had the ph down around 1.15 but any more and the fish were at the surface. 

Why would one tank need 70ppm while another needs 40ppm even if the latter had more light?



plantbrain said:


> Dimmer sunpower.
> 
> I have GE, ATI, Aquaqwave on here now, but that will change.
> Still seeing what I like and looks best.





plantbrain said:


> I have some new T5 bulbs that I am about to try out, so I can get a variety of plant and reflective colors.
> 
> Adding the red in the front and the blue in the rear is a decent combo, with a purple in the middle and mostly whites. I'll see. That's the combo I have now, so the water looks blue in the deeper sections and reflects the reds better in the front.


Which bulb combo are you currently using and which combo is your favourite? I'm trying do decide if I want to stick with a 2 bulb combo, or jump to 4, 6, or 8 just to play with combos. I'm leaning towards a 6 bulb so I can have lots of choice without paying too much for the fixture.



plantbrain said:


> ADA AS is not cleaner, it's messy stuff compared to EC big time.
> You have to be much more careful and the dust fines are much longer lasting and linger in the water. But it's worth the trade off, and you just wait a few days and it's gone.
> 
> EC is likely better for folks overall/in general that like to uproot and move plants around.
> 
> I do it with ADA AS, but I've done this a long time, so maybe it's me........and I do large water changes after typically. Many do not want to do/deal with that.


I'm using 100% AS "new" in my tank and I find it clouds but clears very quickly. Within 20 minutes if I just replant floaters. A few hours if I really dig around. 

But, do you find the AS to be extremely light? I find it hard to get any new plantings to stay down. Until a topped stem or new plant has stayed down for a week or two, it tends to float up. It's driving me insane. I'm using standard tongs so maybe I need pincets... I put a stem in and it comes up with the tweezers, doesn't matter what plant it is. Planting is easy if the soil is wet but there is no water. Not the case anymore.


----------



## styxx

@ jcgd, I have been doing this for 8 years now and all substrates come with trade offs. In my experience ADA AS has went through a series of iterations. The original was a real PITA because of the high organics would literally turn the water milky white when initially cycling. Then ADA went to the AS II and now "new" versions. Back in the old days, as I'm sure Tom will confirm, Laterite was the OG substrate and then its successor Fluorite (which I used for a few years). However in terms of growth ability, AS is by far the most accomplished. However it suffers from some disadvantages; one is the fact that it is light-weight (though depending on grain size aren't all substrates?) and the other is that over time it suffers from compaction and turns to mush (though this does take a while to happen, usually a year or more). The only way that I found to remedy the planting issue you're having is to partially bury the plantlets or to obtain plantlets with especially well developed root systems that one can grasp and drag under for a substantial depth.


----------



## jcgd

I hear you there, I've used a few different substrates. I used standard gravel and sand for the first five years or so. Flourite for the last six or so... loved it so I stuck with it. I found those three to be fairly heavy. Sand was lighter, but it compacted back around the plants. The AS though, is new to me. I have only tried the new version and the plant growth is awesome, but the light weight is a killer. I've resorted to planting a good chunk of the stems, lower leaves and all. Normally I strip those lower leaves, but now I leave them for anchors.


----------



## plantbrain

SMS is 2x as light and does not stick well together vs ADA AS, you want a sediment that's cheap, good CEC, but a PITA? Do the soil master select.
I use it to fluff up clay soil for bonsai and ornamental plants though.

ADA AS takes some getting use to, but the trade off it well worth it.

The Video of the cardinal 180 Gal tank shows ADA As that's 7+ years old now.
Still works well.


----------



## plantbrain

styxx said:


> Thanks Tom! That's exactly the information that I was looking for...I ask because the tank is in the bedroom close to a A/C vent. I was worried, but since I won't stock with any fish for some time, and RCS are fairly hardy shrimp I figured I could get away with it. We'll see how the E. Hydropiper does, as I usually keep the place around 65-70, but I can always add a my Hydor inline heater to the loop just in case.


In Washington, I doubt you will need much cooling power, RCS do not matter, they can easily live at 60F. CRS will do well at 68-74F.

If you 65-70F the place, then there is zero need for a heater.


----------



## plantbrain

jcgd said:


> Okay, so on my 160 gallon I tried feeding the co2 into my 1262 return pump. I emptied a 10# in three weeks. No leaks, it was the same setup from my old tank and used to last many months. Now I run through a Eheim 1250 pump into a phosban reactor (think cerges), then to the return pump. Now I'm getting buildup in the reactor so it maxed with a ph drop of about 0.7 or so. I could try a bigger pump, but the next one I have around is a 1260 so my tank would run two 1260s and a 1262. Too many large pumps.


Something is not right if the drop is only 0.7 pH units.
You should easily be able to knock the pH a full unit in 45 minutes or less.
I did it on a tank 10X larger.........



> You've said above (any many other times) you prefer the NW pumps. Do you think I would be able to get my levels up higher with a needle wheel? I don't care about the mist, but I can't be burning through 10#s of co2 every few weeks. You said you get around 70ppm on your 180 gallon with a nw. How much co2 are you going through?


Maybe once every 4-5 month range a 10lb tank.
I run a Rio 1000 with a Rio NW impeller fed into the Lifegard return which does about 1000 gph return flow. This is a sump/wet/dry that is sealed with a dual CPR overflow, in the tank, there is a vorthech MP40.



> I'm not really sure what my levels are. Drop checkers were bright yellow, but with mist I think they are kinda pointless. Mist could be gathering in them. At one point I had the ph down around 1.15 but any more and the fish were at the surface.


Well if you look at the pics and video of my tanks, they are rippling good so there is PLENTY of O2.

There is zero surface scum.

Surface scum will retain CO2 and this is good if you add too little, as you add more or if the scum comes and goes as is often the case for many...........then this can gas the fish by not allowing it to degas as it gets higher ppm.

As the concentration of CO2 increases in the water relative to air above, so does the flux.

Same with the thickness and type of boundary layer. If this boundary layer is reduced in thickness and/or the scum is removed allowing from much better/more stable CO2/O2 exchange, then the ENTIRE SYSTEM IS FAR MORES TABLE OVERALL.


Some examples and these can be used to estimate things like sediment flow through and heating cables, UG filters etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick's_laws_of_diffusion

http://omlc.ogi.edu/classroom/ece532/class5/ficks1.html





> Why would one tank need 70ppm while another needs 40ppm even if the latter had more light?


Not entirely certain.
More flow in that 70ppm tank, and the roots are well established and rarely uprooted. The surface scum layer does form a little at one end whereas never forms anywhere on the 120 Gal, wet/drys are different. Prefilters are different, wood is different and the algae issues are only a slight bit of BBA/GSA on glass in the 180 if... the CO2 drops.

Each tank seems to have it's own CO2 optima. I measure this AFTER the tank is up and running well and set the CO2 based on plant, fish and algae observations mostly. Only then..........do I go back and carefully measure CO2 ppm and then I do it for the entire day every few minutes of sometimes once an hour etc.

Different plants respond to and have different CO2 optima also, this is likely a huge factor in different CO2 ppm ranges folks claim, and of course poor measurement and assumptions about their CO2 ppm. I try hard to minimize that, but many are very quick to claim their CO2 is perfect, only a fool says that without a perfect tank to boot.

The 120 has a lot of weeds which grow very fast, so they have lower CO2 compensation points and compete with one another, whereas little of that goes on in the 180. If I do not trim more often in the 120, the weeds will beat up on the other species. Mostly light and CO2.



> Which bulb combo are you currently using and which combo is your favourite? I'm trying do decide if I want to stick with a 2 bulb combo, or jump to 4, 6, or 8 just to play with combos. I'm leaning towards a 6 bulb so I can have lots of choice without paying too much for the fixture.


6 works well for most folks, I like wide spread of light, so most of the tanks are 8 bulb.



> I'm using 100% AS "new" in my tank and I find it clouds but clears very quickly. Within 20 minutes if I just replant floaters. A few hours if I really dig around. But, do you find the AS to be extremely light? I find it hard to get any new plantings to stay down. Until a topped stem or new plant has stayed down for a week or two, it tends to float up. It's driving me insane. I'm using standard tongs so maybe I need pincets... I put a stem in and it comes up with the tweezers, doesn't matter what plant it is. Planting is easy if the soil is wet but there is no water. Not the case anymore.


I use the 12" tweezers mostly, the larger ones, 24" etc are too unwieldy.
Sometimes I use fingers etc, but tighter planting, it just takes practice and time. Part of the learning process in this hobby.

You might just need to plant the stems deeper and as mentioned already: leave the lower leaves on to help keep the plants down, foreground plants are going to much tougher obviously, so those are good to see if you can plant them easily enough.


----------



## jcgd

The 0.7 drop was only with the new reactor. I just added it the other day and I discovered today that this is the best it can do. It slowly fills with co2 throughout the day, so my bubble rate is too high for it. When I was feeding into the return directly it was easy to gas the fish, but it took a lot of co2 flow to do that. My mineral oil was foaming just to get the ph down 1.0. I removed the reactor tonight and modded my 1250 impeller as you showed in a thread a few years back. I fired it up a few minutes ago just to see how it was working. I fed the output right back into my return pump and it looks like a finer mist that before. I'll find out tomorrow how it does... for now I just dialed the co2 way back to an almost countable bubble rate, maybe 4-5 through the counter. I can't say if this will be enough, I was using triple that or more when I was feeding directly into my return.










I would think that our setups are very similar. I have zero surface scum... I've never had a cleaner surface on any tank. My sump is open, but the drain is a herbie style, fully submerged in the overflow and in the sump. The sump's water surface is like glass, no turbulance. I have low to moderate ripples on the surface of the tank, not so much waves, but more like you can see the water flow. There is an open wier feeding the overflow, maybe 5/8" thickness and the drop isn't very high, but there is definately mixing there. It does a corkscrew like a weir in a river. The water level sits at the hight of the second pipe, it was just low at the time of the pic.


----------



## plantbrain

You have naked wood above the water.

Moss that stuff:


----------



## ua hua

Tom, I'm glad that jcgd asked the questions he did as there was some questions that were some of the same questions I had. I am very curious about the mention of a microbubble settling collectors. I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago asking about running a needle wheel pump through a reactor and was wondering if it would help keep some of the microbubbles out of the tank. Almost all the responses I got were people saying the bubbles would just get pushed through the reactor but don't know of this was from anyone that has first hand experience doing this or not. I plan on buying a new pump for my wet/dry that I will be putting back on my tank after not running it for 4 years and would like to try a needle wheel pump but don't care for the seltzer water look. Any insight or suggestions on whether my thoughts of running a needle wheel pump through a reactor would prevent or at least minimize the micro bubbles in the tank.


----------



## jcgd

plantbrain said:


> You have naked wood above the water.
> 
> Moss that stuff:


Yes, I have mossed some now, mostly just around the waterline. The fissidens seem to stay wet up to about 2" out of the water. I wrapped about 4" just to try it. I have a little "bridge" of wood from one mound to the other, just above the water.

I think I'm going to try to get the bolbitis to grow out the top, but I need to grow some out. I killed most of it by leaving it in a bucket for over a year. It's starting to come back strong.




ua hua said:


> Tom, I'm glad that jcgd asked the questions he did as there was some questions that were some of the same questions I had. I am very curious about the mention of a microbubble settling collectors. I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago asking about running a needle wheel pump through a reactor and was wondering if it would help keep some of the microbubbles out of the tank. Almost all the responses I got were people saying the bubbles would just get pushed through the reactor but don't know of this was from anyone that has first hand experience doing this or not. I plan on buying a new pump for my wet/dry that I will be putting back on my tank after not running it for 4 years and would like to try a needle wheel pump but don't care for the seltzer water look. Any insight or suggestions on whether my thoughts of running a needle wheel pump through a reactor would prevent or at least minimize the micro bubbles in the tank.


Just wanted to add that my ph readings were all off. My probe was wacky and I didn't double check it. I may have been getting enough co2 with my little reactor but I need to reaffirm all my numbers now.


----------



## jgb77

Tom, I asked this earlier but you must've not seen it.
Do you still have the Cuphea and Syngonanthus Uaupes in this tank? I didn't see either in the last set of pictures.
Thanks,
John


----------



## styxx

*Yes! One less piece of equipment...*



plantbrain said:


> In Washington, I doubt you will need much cooling power, RCS do not matter, they can easily live at 60F. CRS will do well at 68-74F.
> 
> If you 65-70F the place, then there is zero need for a heater.


Awesome! Thanks!


----------



## plantbrain

jgb77 said:


> Tom, I asked this earlier but you must've not seen it.
> Do you still have the Cuphea and Syngonanthus Uaupes in this tank? I didn't see either in the last set of pictures.
> Thanks,
> John


I removed the S. uaupes and gave to local SAPS member. It's a bit too similar to Erio's. Cuphea I still have it's bouncing back. I never had a lot of it. 4-5 stems etc. It's okay, not particularly useful for scaping in my view, but maybe later.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Tom, I'm glad that jcgd asked the questions he did as there was some questions that were some of the same questions I had. I am very curious about the mention of a microbubble settling collectors. I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago asking about running a needle wheel pump through a reactor and was wondering if it would help keep some of the microbubbles out of the tank. Almost all the responses I got were people saying the bubbles would just get pushed through the reactor but don't know of this was from anyone that has first hand experience doing this or not. I plan on buying a new pump for my wet/dry that I will be putting back on my tank after not running it for 4 years and would like to try a needle wheel pump but don't care for the seltzer water look. Any insight or suggestions on whether my thoughts of running a needle wheel pump through a reactor would prevent or at least minimize the micro bubbles in the tank.


I do not fire the NW directly into the return pump, but point it in that direction. 

I feed the CO2 directly into the returns on the other 2 tanks which makes the 120 look a bit frothy only in pics, but not in person, the 70 Gal tends to be the most noticeable with the mist.

But I turn that off and it goes away.

The bright colors and high light reflect the bubbles and makes the pics come out hazy. 

I might mess around and I have some clear 3" dia PVC and a 6" dia PVC pipe 3ft long each if you are interested in buying with flat end caps


----------



## plantbrain

News, both good and bad. The bad is the gold nuggets seem to enjoy munching on the Elatine hydropiper.











You can clearly see the plant is healthy and not melting and growing and I keep seeing new bits floating each morning, but never during the day. The new bits have healthy leaves and long roots.
The fish are well fed and I place the food in the back for them. No way I can keep it in here with those fish. I've done well with it and this was a mystery for a couple of weeks now. I caught them doing it one night as I sat there motionless.

So the new plan: Grow the E hydropiper in trays emergent...........keep plenty on hand for sales and for replanting another tank or spot.
I'll add UG to the area and to the Downoi area also and move the downoi over to the far left where the UG was.

I have some nice Buce's, 13 nicer ruffled edge types which I tend to favor. 
Doing the math, it's a fair sum of $$$, but I've grown them up fast and well also and traded some wood for them.
See below, they will fair well in this location and the downoi will be moved as they have a similar leaf shape, but are very light tolerant and okay with being shaded, downoi less so. 
As it grows out more, I may eventually make a nice larger row.













I also removed them from the rear corner where they really are not getting their due and decided to place the larger broad leaf types of Buce's back there and I'll slowly phase out the A coffeefolia and allow the H aragauia to fill in a bit in that area.
S. belem and manus keep doing well. Other species are recovering. I'll be adding back R macrandra soon. 










Here's a close up of the odd behavior of the R sunset:









This only occurs after a cutting and the top is generally effected, but it's really hit or miss, maybe 1 out 5 stems will do this and even those when removed and floated, will sprout new shoots which are fine.
It's not hormonal or environmental, light, etc..........the plant right next to the other will do it. Bottom stumps can be left and seem to always sprout nicely and those stems will not have any issues unless I cut and replant them.

Odd behavior, never seen anything like it before in any of the 400 or so species I've had/grown.


----------



## plantbrain

Removed all the E hydropiper. Emergent containers for now.
UG will replace that space and the Downoi.
I replanted the Downoi on the other side of the R sunset, I just do not like it there though.
I'll have to change that and might replace the H sibthorpides on the other side with Downoi or something.
I also increased the CO2 just a touch, this seemed to prevent any issues with algae from the prior CO2 issues and the tank has remained algae free since.
This verifies and predicts the issues independent of other factors. H2O2 had hardly any effect even with very aggressive frequent usage. It does not show cause.......but it does not rule out the beneficial effects of tweaking CO2 correctly.
Yes, I too thought I had plenty and there was nothing wrong with it etc. But I know better than to trust myself on CO2.


----------



## antbug

I just bumped mine up too. That wet/dry is allowing me to add way more co2 with all the extra o2 it produces. 

Bummer on the hydropiper. It was filling in so nice for you. I hope you have better luck than I with it emerged. Mine is doing a whole lot of nothing. Once I get more light, I was thinking of adding it to the tank. I'm worried about my cory's digging it up though. 

My one stem of R. sunset is doing really good. I have about 10+ shoots coming off of it. So weird. 

Try the downoi h. sibthrpides switch. I think the downoi would look go in that location. Less light there too.

I like the buce up front


----------



## antbug

oh yeah, let see a FTS :angryfire (like I didn't just see it in person) :icon_mrgr


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Tom, when are you due for your next trimming? Because I'd love to take some off your hands!


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> I just bumped mine up too. That wet/dry is allowing me to add way more co2 with all the extra o2 it produces.
> 
> Bummer on the hydropiper. It was filling in so nice for you. I hope you have better luck than I with it emerged. Mine is doing a whole lot of nothing. Once I get more light, I was thinking of adding it to the tank. I'm worried about my cory's digging it up though.
> 
> My one stem of R. sunset is doing really good. I have about 10+ shoots coming off of it. So weird.
> 
> Try the downoi h. sibthrpides switch. I think the downoi would look go in that location. Less light there too.
> 
> I like the buce up front


I'm not worried about the E hydropiper, it grew well, it'll grow again in another tank or this one later. I'll still grow a sell it either way. Cories will dig it up though.

I adjusted the CO2 with the output pressure going up about 1/2 to 1 PSI each time.
I adjusted the vernier caliper the wrong way about a month ago I think. So I put arrows and little tag on it so I do not make the simple error again.
There was no leak, there was no real change, I blamed on the tank running out and then post recovery, but the recovery took too long.
Algae stuck around longer than it should have.

It was CO2, but the short drop in CO2 from the tank running out was minor, the actually adjustment was altered the opposite direction.
"Oh sure, I'm always 100% certain my CO2 is perfect"

Not even.............

Particularly when growth declines and algae appears etc.

Dosing was the same, tearing up the tank and replanting, the same, lighting the same, large frequent water changes and filtration the same.
CO2 was the only variable that would cause those effects I am aware of.

And I am typically running 50ppm in this tank.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Tom, when are you due for your next trimming? Because I'd love to take some off your hands!


Likely this weekend.

5-10 stems of L. tornado
10-20 stems of Red ludwigia
a couple of E. triandra batches 
20 Penthorum 
100-200 Starougyne


----------



## plantbrain

And I added a Red sun URI and removed a Red wave point.
Moved some of the ATI blues out wider.
Different look, tried some spectralux green bulbs, too freaky and too yellow looking, but would look nice for a fern tank.

I suppose I should test the par for various bulb brands since I got the PAR meter back from Hoppy and i have more bulb T5 types than most, but PAR is less my interest and more what they actually look like to my eye, they can have the best PAR, but if they look like crap............

Spectralux does not make 3ft lengths for the green bulbs, which is what 'd I prefer.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## antbug

Look at all those flowers on the buce. So cool!

What about switching the H. aragauia with the H. sibthrpides? You have a lot of green on the right now. The ET will contrast nicely with the low grow too.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Look at all those flowers on the buce. So cool!
> 
> What about switching the H. aragauia with the H. sibthrpides? You have a lot of green on the right now. The ET will contrast nicely with the low grow too.


That's a good idea, as it will provide a nice transition to the red plants farther back and still stay short and semi well behaved. It's not really doing much justice in the far corner. 
That's a lot of Buce indeed, maybe 600$ worth of plants in that dinky little row. They do very well in this tank in the understory/shaded.
By the time the UG grows out and I sell more, the Buce's will double in size almost.


----------



## pandacory

This tank is amazing.


----------



## plantbrain

pandacory said:


> This tank is amazing.


It's a good journey as I have not done a higher light tank for some years now. Returning to it allows me to sample many new species and revisit some old favorites. 

The CO2 issue is an old foe as well.

But the correction and the recovery are good lessons for others to see, and then realize/learn from, when we often are so sure of ourselves, we really can barely see the obvious.

The questions I pose are fairly obvious and standard stuff many might ponder themselves, but there's a nice customized tank, killer light, great filter and good CO2 delivery, excellent general care, frequent water changes, nice interesting livestock, pricy eclectic plants, rimless starfire tank, ADA AS etc.

Stuff does not come cheap, but..........in about 1 years or two, the tank will have easily paid for itself in plants and livestock sales. The 180 Gal tank paid itself off about 2 years ago and has made more the last 2 years, than the prior 5 before.

It only took me 35 years to learn how to have a tank make money instead of losing money


----------



## plantbrain

This is the old pic, I'll edit after I take as pic tomorrow of the major hack I did.
I switched the H araguaia with the H sibthorpides pennywort, I might have the pennywort float in and out of some spots. Not sure yet where to put it.

I am replanting the E triandra like the UG. I wish the UG would hurry up and grow, but it'll be a month or two now before that fills in. 

Tank has perked up nice since I redid the CO2.
2 stupid things: tank ran out of gas and I did not notice for a few days, okay a common mistake but does not happen that often.........and.........turning the needle valve the wrong way thinking I was adding more not less.

Algae kept growing even after I trimmed and removed it. 
Once the CO2 is adjusted correctly, it does not form on new leaves and regions.

So then trimming and cleaning it out is worth your labor.

I also pulled out and trimmed several species that had classic CO2 deficiencies. I took a pic of a few, but you can see along the stems.......
nice fat large leaves..........then a sudden decline and much smaller leaves, and then about 1" or so of suppressed tiny growth, followed by a post recovery increase in size and then almost like the prior fat leaves when there was no algae issue as well.

I take fairly good care of the tank, but it does have high light.
So I mostly get green algae.

If it's a longer term chronic CO2 issue, then I get BBA. 1st on wood and if bad/worse CO2, I'll get it on the plants themselves. 

Mild CO2 deficiency? Great good plant growth with SOME species, some suffer much worse than others here.........and recovery is brutal for some........
Hair algae and Cladophora, I am speculating, but GDA also seems part of the issue for some folks. These are not issues if you know how to clean them up and adjust the CO2 etc. 

If you are convinced it must be something else, I have fixed many tanks, including several of my own with nothing more than CO2 and good general trimming and care. No manipulation of ferts or light.

Recalling back 15 years ago.........same stuff. Nothing since then has been observed that's much different. Same old stuff in fact. Since I hacked a lot tonight, I'll post tomorrow otherwise it'll be murky.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> News, both good and bad. The bad is the gold nuggets seem to enjoy munching on the Elatine hydropiper.
> 
> Here's a close up of the odd behavior of the R sunset:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This only occurs after a cutting and the top is generally effected, but it's really hit or miss, maybe 1 out 5 stems will do this and even those when removed and floated, will sprout new shoots which are fine.
> It's not hormonal or environmental, light, etc..........the plant right next to the other will do it. Bottom stumps can be left and seem to always sprout nicely and those stems will not have any issues unless I cut and replant them.
> 
> Odd behavior, never seen anything like it before in any of the 400 or so species I've had/grown.



ludwigia repens does this in my tank, macrandra does,


----------



## Robert H

Tom, I tried to grow the Elatine hydropiper I got from you emersed, sort of, (about 2 inches of water, just covering the plants) and it all melted away within 30 days. Any suggestions as to how I can do it better?


----------



## plantbrain

The Tornado Ludwigia:























































There's a hole on the left side that will add some more Buce's in the rear.

I'll move the E triandra and the H araguaia some, and fill in the red macrandra and the wallichii in the rear again. There are a few other plants, I'll be moving around.
I'll likely remove the tornado and place in the back as a replacement for the P stellata.
Then add a new plant in that spot.

The UG obviously needs to fill in.

I have a few stems of Bacopa salzmannii, has a nice purple coloration and is very easy to grow.
Might work a little with that as an off green color contrast.

I might try the Erio type 3 or the more prostrate Erios again..........or L pilosa.


----------



## plantbrain

Robert H said:


> Tom, I tried to grow the Elatine hydropiper I got from you emersed, sort of, (about 2 inches of water, just covering the plants) and it all melted away within 30 days. Any suggestions as to how I can do it better?


I've never grown it emergent, the SFBAAPS groups does, they say they do well with it, but I never see any for sale, which means that perhaps it does well, but not well enough to sell for a lot of $?!?!?!?

I have some outside but hard to say, most grow in window sills and cooler temps etc.


----------



## plantbrain

New plants have adapted very well and are growing in well in the rear.
Fish health has been exceptional.

With the addition of the rummy nose, the Fire shrimp have been hiding much more, the school of rummies will bite hair on my arms, any snail on the glass etc. 

I've lost 2 fish total from suicidal jumps. Not bad and much less than I though over the time period. Fish red face coloration is as red as any I've ever seen.
Behavior is only slightly depressed the latter 3-4 hours of the light/CO2 cycle.
These are very happy fish and a good fit for this tank.

I'm happy with locating a good spot for the Buce's, I'll be getting more later for the Rear.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Are you still doing a sale of trimmings Tom? And is that Tonina fluviatilis?


----------



## ch3fb0yrdee

How thick is your substrate tom? From the looks of it, it looks like it's 1 -1 1/2 in thick. If that's true, what is your technique when planting and replanting the stems? I've always had problems planting things thin substrates.


----------



## styxx

plantbrain said:


> I've never grown it emergent, the SFBAAPS groups does, they say they do well with it, but I never see any for sale, which means that perhaps it does well, but not well enough to sell for a lot of $?!?!?!?
> 
> I have some outside but hard to say, most grow in window sills and cooler temps etc.


I had a patch about 3" x 3" and I divided it up and planted it. After a week, it all melted away as well. I had high CO2, strong lighting and was consistent with my ferts while keeping the temp @ 72 and it didn't survive. I suspect that it might have suffered from shipping? I have just decided to switch to glosso or something else. Until it is readily available and affordable I'm content to wait and fall back on the old reliables until then. It looks awesome, there's no question about it. It is the size of HC but without being a PITA over time from all accounts, but I wish it were easier to cultivate.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Are you still doing a sale of trimmings Tom? And is that Tonina fluviatilis?


Yes and yes, but a Tonina "lotus blossom" type, it has leaves that point up, not recurve back or are narrow.

Of the 3 types, it's my favorite.


----------



## plantbrain

ch3fb0yrdee said:


> How thick is your substrate tom? From the looks of it, it looks like it's 1 -1 1/2 in thick. If that's true, what is your technique when planting and replanting the stems? I've always had problems planting things thin substrates.


Trick photography:redface:


----------



## plantbrain

styxx said:


> I had a patch about 3" x 3" and I divided it up and planted it. After a week, it all melted away as well. I had high CO2, strong lighting and was consistent with my ferts while keeping the temp @ 72 and it didn't survive. I suspect that it might have suffered from shipping? I have just decided to switch to glosso or something else. Until it is readily available and affordable I'm content to wait and fall back on the old reliables until then. It looks awesome, there's no question about it. It is the size of HC but without being a PITA over time from all accounts, but I wish it were easier to cultivate.


Seems that way, but it could be due to sore luck with the gold nuggets.
I could try HC and see.

The nuggets seem to leave the UG alone and it fills in denser without issues and the other foreground plants tend to not be molested. I honestly do not want to remove fish and fuss over a plant, if it does not work well, out it goes. Often to the 180 which seems to bring many species back to life, mostly due to lower light and more CO2.


----------



## Jeffww

So when do you think everything's going to be finalized and we'll see it all established?


----------



## pandacory

How long of a vacation would you feel comfortable taking while running a tank like this?

What would you do to prepare for the vacation?


----------



## plantbrain

I hire a slave boy to stop by and do a water change and clean the filters, feed fish etc, 2-3 x a week, water bonsai etc.

100-200$ for 1-2 weeks is well worth it to the salve boy and to me.


----------



## plantbrain

Jeffww said:


> So when do you think everything's going to be finalized and we'll see it all established?


Huh?

I do not think that way about this tank, it's the the journey, the tank is for myself, not for a contest. This is why I take pics and make changes often. The other tanks? You only would see those once every 6-12 months type of thing.
It evolves and so do my taste and interest, it's far more interesting this way than a static single pic once a year:thumbsup:

A few times so far I've had it pretty full, but I'll never be happy 100% with it.
A new plant that I like and will want to try out and place somewhere will come along.

Or I might not like something once it develops and fills in.
Or no one buys a certain plant and I want to try out a new one that's slower growing and worth more $ to buyers and less work for me. The plant has to work well in the location and contrast well also(color, leaf shape, growth habit/rates, ease of care etc) and be worth $$$ or something new and not commonly used in a scaping layout.

Added up, that's a lot of criteria to consider.

I do have finished aquariums, but that is not really the goal here with this one. The 180 gal video, the 70 Gal manzigumi etc......... various others, the 60p non CO2 etc etc........


----------



## jgb77

I like this picture below. It shows the subtle difference with CO2 being good and just a bit lacking, then shows the recovery and back to good growth CO2 levels. It is good to show this because many would not even notice this happening in their tank or what a certain plant should look like when growing correctly. Many people miss this sort of thing and I think it is very helpful and telling.








John


----------



## styxx

*Awesome!*



plantbrain said:


> I hire a slave boy to stop by and do a water change and clean the filters, feed fish etc, 2-3 x a week, water bonsai etc.
> 
> 100-200$ for 1-2 weeks is well worth it to the salve boy and to me.


LMAO! Well I need one of those too, hahahaha.


----------



## antbug

Yeah, can I borrow him too?


----------



## styxx

antbug said:


> Yeah, can I borrow him too?


We'll share him Anthony! :thumbsup:


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Yeah, can I borrow him too?


Sure, he's good and reliable. College educated (UC Davis grad) too. 
Helps me haul wood too. I'm creating jobs and employing people that want to work hard and get paid well.

Well worth it actually.


----------



## jcgd

I'm jealous of that kid. Gets to look at your tanks and collect awesome wood... and get paid for it.


----------



## styxx

jcgd said:


> I'm jealous of that kid. Gets to look at your tanks and collect awesome wood... and get paid for it.


LMAO. Well there is *that* factor as well.


----------



## plantbrain

jcgd said:


> I'm jealous of that kid. Gets to look at your tanks and collect awesome wood... and get paid for it.


He works for it. I'm an easy boss, you do the work well, you get paid, you good food on the side, you don't work/slack etc, I do not call back. 
Pretty simple arrangement. Pays to be nice(this cost nothing and is the best investment) and pay folks well in the long run. 

Tank is doing quite well now.
I'll make a few changes coming up depending on what grows in nicely in the 180 etc.

The E hydropiper is doing decent emergent so it might make a come back return at some point.


----------



## plantbrain

I moved the Ludwigia "tornado" to the rear where I've had the P stellata for a few months. It has a slightly yellowish tinge I like and should do fine back there.
I placed the P stellata where the tornado was for now, I'll likely remove it or add it to the 180 Gal.

A newer micro milfoil/ small dainty Myriophyllum has come into the hobby, this would be a few nice fine needle stem plant for smaller nano and medium sized aquarium. Slightly slower growing, about 1/2" in diameter, very nice well behaved plant. It's between the downoi and the pennwort in the side view.

I spent some time watching the Rummy nose the other day over the course of the day and into the night. I was blaming the Gold nugget on the uprooting the E hydropiper.

I accused the poor nugget even though when the E hydropiper was growing in there..........it was doing well and the nuggets were in there also during that same time. The Rummies were not.

I watched the rummies pick and pull up several plants but could not pull the UG up as much of the ET, but I can see that they likely did the uprooting by rummaging through the plants after food or shrimp.

My Fires hide in the other areas away from them more than any other fish, they no# of shrimp I breed has dropped a fair amount also. I blame the rummies.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

can we see a picture of the backside of ur overflow box? do u let it cascade or do u have a mod to prevent the small waterfall
judging by ur attempts to tell people about surface agitation i'd take a guess it falls but im curious


----------



## plantbrain

Spill over is about 1" or so, the sponge backs the flow up some and raises the level maybe 2-3".


----------



## micr0

wow that stand of tonina is just stunning.


----------



## S&KGray

plantbrain said:


> I spent some time watching the Rummy nose the other day over the course of the day and into the night. I was blaming the Gold nugget on the uprooting the E hydropiper.
> 
> I accused the poor nugget even though when the E hydropiper was growing in there..........it was doing well and the nuggets were in there also during that same time. The Rummies were not.
> 
> I watched the rummies pick and pull up several plants but could not pull the UG up as much of the ET, but I can see that they likely did the uprooting by rummaging through the plants after food or shrimp.
> 
> My Fires hide in the other areas away from them more than any other fish, they no# of shrimp I breed has dropped a fair amount also. I blame the rummies.


Wow! That is interesting, poor gold-nugget got framed hehe.


----------



## plantbrain

S&KGray said:


> Wow! That is interesting, poor gold-nugget got framed hehe.


Wrongly accused they were.

I like the rummies though, I can always chose another plant and UG is a nice plant indeed and does very well. Finding a nice fish that does well for this tank, is harder.

The plants were VERY healthy that they pulled up with roots at least 1" long etc. No algae, no decay, just pulled up healthy plants.


----------



## plantbrain

micr0 said:


> wow that stand of tonina is just stunning.


It was looking better but in a month or so and a couple more trims, it will look nice.










You can see a little bit of the Cuphea in this pic above also. It's a nice little plant, diminutive but a poor competitor in this aquarium.
I like it, but it's poorly suited for this display.


----------



## Jeffww

Do you think you'd be interested in finding/growing staurogyne sp. 'red'? I've been really interested in this plant myself...and thought you might be too. 

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ils.php?id=134&category=genus&spec=Hygrophila


----------



## plantbrain

Jeffww said:


> Do you think you'd be interested in finding/growing staurogyne sp. 'red'? I've been really interested in this plant myself...and thought you might be too.
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ils.php?id=134&category=genus&spec=Hygrophila


Yes, nice looking plant, similar to H arag, but I do not know if it's as tolerant as H arag.....that's a very nice easy to grow under a wide range of light and conditions, from very low shaded lighting to the most intense you can throw at it. 

Until you actually get the plant and see what it does under several aquarist conditions, it's hard to say much. But I'd try it.


----------



## Jeffww

I have had a portion of araguia growing emersed for almost a year now. The stuff is really fast growing out of the water when compared to submersed culture. I'll let you know if I ever find stauro 'red'. 

How is the curly tornado doing? I've been eying that plant for awhile.


----------



## plantbrain

Jeffww said:


> Do you think you'd be interested in finding/growing staurogyne sp. 'red'? I've been really interested in this plant myself...and thought you might be too.
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ils.php?id=134&category=genus&spec=Hygrophila


Yes, nice looking plant, similar to H arag, but I do not know if it's as tolerant as H arag.....that's a very nice easy to grow under a wide range of light and conditions, from very low shaded lighting to the most intense you can throw at it. 

Until you actually get the plant and see what it does under several aquarist conditions, it's hard to say much. But I'd try it.


----------



## plantbrain

Jeffww said:


> I have had a portion of araguia growing emersed for almost a year now. The stuff is really fast growing out of the water when compared to submersed culture. I'll let you know if I ever find stauro 'red'.
> 
> How is the curly tornado doing? I've been eying that plant for awhile.


BTW, I'll trade you the tornado for the red hygro.


----------



## sunyang730

-----------------------------^^^^^^-----------------------------------^^^^^^
------------------------------This one and -----------------------------this one
Hi Tom, what is this plant? are you planning to sell some? 

Please let me know!


----------



## plantbrain

Elatine triandra, a weed, and then the other is S uaupes.


----------



## plantbrain

Made a few changes.





























You can see a lot of recovery from post CO2 issue.
Cuphea has decided to grow again, the Buce's have adapted to the high light region with minimal issues. The Bacopa in the rear should color up a nice purple........new mini Milfoil is a nice little plant. 

Downoi has gotten very thick on the far left.

UG was replanted and should start filling in somewhat in the next 2-3 weeks. 
The A. cardinalis is a true red variety and has bounced back with new nice growth. Red R. macrandra makes a return. S belem and manuas in the rear, L. vertillicilata twisty tornado has taken over the rear, will need to thin this out and perhaps add another plant species etc. 

Hydrothrix also makes a return.

Post trim stunting reduced on the R sunset, likely due to better CO2 and scissors.

Not quite sure what to do with the Cuphea really, small nice plant, but I'm having trouble seeing long term placement/scaping. Likely will replace with the Pennywort. 

I will likely switch the Bacopa with the Milfoil.


----------



## javajaws

plantbrain said:


>


Tom, what's the orange-red plant in the middle here? And if you have any trimmings available soon let me know.


----------



## jcgd

Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'pantanal' I believe.


----------



## ua hua

Ludwigia Inclinata var. verticillata 'Pantanal


http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plantfinder/details.php?id=69


----------



## plantbrain

Reverted back to the Hydrothrix, but that will be temp.
Recovery on the A cardinalis, this is different than the commonly sold A renieckii. This plant is deeper coloration and slower growing, less busy in some respects, tougher leaves etc. 
The Variant of the R macrandra is different than I have prior. I will see how it develops.
R wallichii and S belem have returned. 

Cuphea is doing well, but is a small plant in the Right corner. 

The Tonina and the L. pantanal were trimmed hard recently, so they will bounce back and I trimmed the Red Ludwigia and the Hydrothrix right after taking the pic.
I wish the UG would hurry up. 











The Buce's have all responded well after about 2-3 week adjustment to very high light.
This runs counter to the claim they prefer low light, they grow well and rather fast under high light, no algae etc.
The tornado Ludwigia is growing at a rapid rate, I can scape anything I want at this point, but it grows so branchy, hard to figure out what to do with it.
Need to thin it back and add perhaps another plant in the rear I like.


----------



## beetea

I wish my downoi looked as good as yours!


----------



## plantbrain

I've left the Downoi alone for a about 4 weeks and it's extremely dense.
I can double it about every month or 5-6 weeks. Once the UG gets going, it'll do the same or a little slower.


----------



## plantbrain

I'm going to rearrange the plants/remove a couple of red plants. R. sunset is moving out to the 180 Gal tank in the background for now. Hopefully the Hygro "red" will come in as hoped.


----------



## jcgd

Hey Tom, the Hygro red is a new species you're bringing into the tank? I'm curious to see it. 

The araguaia... in past posts have you referred to it as Hygro 'low grow'? Just trying to get all my names straight.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Tom, I'm going to have to get a trimmings package from you. You have almost every plant I want and they all look gorgeous. Do you have a list of the species used in this tank?


----------



## plantbrain

jcgd said:


> Hey Tom, the Hygro red is a new species you're bringing into the tank? I'm curious to see it.
> 
> The araguaia... in past posts have you referred to it as Hygro 'low grow'? Just trying to get all my names straight.


It's different from the Red hygro araguaia, this is something else and a bit different color also.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Tom, I'm going to have to get a trimmings package from you. You have almost every plant I want and they all look gorgeous. Do you have a list of the species used in this tank?


The species change, I do not keep any list really.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Okay. Is that Syngonanthus sp. Belem I see in the back?


----------



## pandacory

*1,000,001 questions*

Hi,

I went through this thread post by post. Thank you for the horticultural and design instruction. It has been interesting to watch the tank develop, and, for anyone willing to read it, you likely shaved years off of the learning curve.

I understand that specs don’t create results, especially when it comes to planted tanks, where the artist’s eye and the gardeners thumb determine so much, however, I think that specs are useful to get in the ballpark and then from there you let practice/experience take over.

For trace you had mentioned using CMS/DTPA Fe, Fe Gluconate: 3:1:1 mixed at 1table spoon per 1 liter of water + 20mls of excel for mold prevention, dosed at 30-45mls every other day. Are you doing the 1 table spoon per liter of tank water, or of the solution? (I am guessing you are doing 1 table spoon per liter of the solution, and then dosing the solution at 30-45mls every other day) I am not entirely familiar with these chemicals, are they bought in bulk, or are there a specific brand for these (I am not certain where to source, or if what I am looking at is the right thing)?

For ferts you mentioned dosing KNO3/KH2PO4- 2-3x a week at 15ppm/5ppm per dose, that the Gh booster you are using is 50% K2S04. Are you similarly mixing these into a solution prior to addition? Are you using any preservative addition (like the excel addition to the trace elements)? Are these also bulk or brand? Is the GH booster a proprietary mix, if so, do you mind sharing the mix?

On lighting, throughout the thread you switched from 60umols at the substrate to 120umols, was this done for growth rate purposes, or for the species that you moved into? It also seems like you are using an 8 bulb fixture on a 30” wide tank, is this for coverage reasons, or for bulb options? How many bulbs would you want to run on the more standard 12, 18, and 24” widths?

You had mentioned running the wet/dry set up on a tank as small as a 60P, I am curious to know, which one are you running on that tank? For tanks where a wet/dry is not an option, would you run an air stone/surface skimmer or any other equipment to attempt to achieve similar 02 etc. benefits as the wet dry for a canister filter?

Thanks for the time. I am also pouring through the Barr report site right now. I am hoping to evolve beyond the stage of the hobby of being obsessed with equipment and move on from growing only easy/intermediate plants to the more interesting/exotic species.


----------



## pandacory

also, since i know you are probably the only one that certainly knows:

if you put an ADA tank next to a starphire tank, is there a difference in glass clarity?

is the bevel treatment between the Lee Mar and the ADA the same?


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Okay. Is that Syngonanthus sp. Belem I see in the back?


Yep, wanted to phase it out and replace with S lago grande. 
It gets huge in my 180, maybe 4" crowns. I trim this tank more and it's shallow, some grows for some stems stay small or do no fair as well due to frequent trimmings.


----------



## plantbrain

pandacory said:


> also, since i know you are probably the only one that certainly knows:
> 
> if you put an ADA tank next to a starphire tank, is there a difference in glass clarity?
> 
> is the bevel treatment between the Lee Mar and the ADA the same?


Well, I can tell LeeMar or a custom makers specifically what I want, you cannot do that with ADA. the Quality is better than ADA, but for smaller tanks, ADA is more economical. If you want larger tanks in the 70 or over ranges, then custom makers are worth looking into. The edge and glue job is as good as any ADA tank.

The tank also have a PVC bottom glued to it to help distribute the weight.


----------



## plantbrain

pandacory said:


> For trace you had mentioned using CMS/DTPA Fe, Fe Gluconate: 3:1:1 mixed at 1table spoon per 1 liter of water + 20mls of excel for mold prevention, dosed at 30-45mls every other day. Are you doing the 1 table spoon per liter of tank water, or of the solution? (I am guessing you are doing 1 table spoon per liter of the solution, and then dosing the solution at 30-45mls every other day)




You guessed correctly.



> I am not entirely familiar with these chemicals, are they bought in bulk, or are there a specific brand for these (I am not certain where to source, or if what I am looking at is the right thing)?



www.aquariumfertilizer.com

Bulk.


> For ferts you mentioned dosing KNO3/KH2PO4- 2-3x a week at 15ppm/5ppm per dose, that the Gh booster you are using is 50% K2S04. Are you similarly mixing these into a solution prior to addition? Are you using any preservative addition (like the excel addition to the trace elements)? Are these also bulk or brand? Is the GH booster a proprietary mix, if so, do you mind sharing the mix?


As above, I toss it directly into the tank, or sump.



> On lighting, throughout the thread you switched from 60umols at the substrate to 120umols, was this done for growth rate purposes, or for the species that you moved into? It also seems like you are using an 8 bulb fixture on a 30” wide tank, is this for coverage reasons, or for bulb options? How many bulbs would you want to run on the more standard 12, 18, and 24” widths?


Depends on the tank really. 

While I have more light, I have a controller that ramps the light intensity from 0-% up to 100% over the 2 hours nice and evenly.

Then down from 100-0% over 2 hours, so the tank is at 100% for only 4 hours, and a total time of about 8 hours, CO2 is on about 7 1/2 hours.

I use much less light now that I did, but it's only more intense for a few hours. The total energy usage is down to about 5.8 hours of full energy use vs 10 hours with the old Tek fixture.

And I get 50% more light for the same energy added.




> You had mentioned running the wet/dry set up on a tank as small as a 60P, I am curious to know, which one are you running on that tank? For tanks where a wet/dry is not an option, would you run an air stone/surface skimmer or any other equipment to attempt to achieve similar 02 etc. benefits as the wet dry for a canister filter?


CPR for a 55 gal tank, and Mame Overflow prefilter.

You might try a Vuppa ADA thingy, but I do not like canister filters, never really have.


----------



## pandacory

Can this style be done effectively on a smaller scale?

Obviously a well done larger tank is more impressive, but I think part of the appeal of Ada style is that it can be done well at a smaller scale. Without many examples of dutch to look at, this is not easy for me to say. I'd like to know what your thoughts are on effective group/row sizes. As you stated, a few stems are not as attractive as a well manacured group.

As far as Ada being more economical, the 75p through a local retailer is only $100 cheaper than the quote I got on a 24x24x14 lee mar. I'm just trying to decide if I should just go with the Ada, get the tank as quoted, or up thw height to 16 or 18 inches.


----------



## antbug

I say get the tank you want. When I was looking for my tank, I checked out Tom's glasscages and Lee Mar. After seeing both ADA and Lee Mar in person, I was looking to order a Lee Mar. The size I was looking at, 48x18x18, was a little cheaper with ADA and it was local. Weigh out your options and go from there.


----------



## plantbrain

pandacory said:


> Can this style be done effectively on a smaller scale?
> 
> Obviously a well done larger tank is more impressive, but I think part of the appeal of Ada style is that it can be done well at a smaller scale. Without many examples of dutch to look at, this is not easy for me to say. I'd like to know what your thoughts are on effective group/row sizes. As you stated, a few stems are not as attractive as a well manacured group.
> 
> As far as Ada being more economical, the 75p through a local retailer is only $100 cheaper than the quote I got on a 24x24x14 lee mar. I'm just trying to decide if I should just go with the Ada, get the tank as quoted, or up thw height to 16 or 18 inches.


Check with Charlie in Long Beach, he might get you the same type of tank for less. Search "Charlie and the Fish tank factory".


----------



## plantbrain

I need to work on a few things, the Ammannia is temporary as it will grow massive and fast. Removed the pantanal weed. I always end up hatting that plant, grows too fast. I want another contrast where the Sunset once was, just put some left over L. pilosa in there for now, and will try a few other red plants.

UG is just starting to grow back. Takes awhile and I think many lose patience, but once it grows well, it's easy thereafter.


----------



## plantbrain

I still plan on adding Erio type 3 back from the 180 and remove the Hydrothrix.
Hydrothrix is very fast growing like pantanal. 

I'll most likely add the Alternathera roseafolia where the Ammannia is now after it grows out. I have some growing well outside emergent.

To give you an idea of the differences with Ammannia types, this is what I call normal Ammannia gracilus:











It is a giant large weed. 

I took small side shoots and smaller stems for the 120 gal, this massive stem plant came out of the 180 Gal tank. That is also where I put the L. pantanal for now. 

I think I'll get a different type of red macrandra, this type is nothing like the one I had prior, it was a mauve color, this is darker red, copperish hue.
I havwe the purple Bacopa I can also add in place of the L pilosa.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Tom, I've seen Ammania gracilis before, and this is HUGE. I think you have an oddball. 

And I'll take the pantanal off your hands.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, we have a new type of Ammannia floating around the hobby Manini sells, it's smaller, slower growing and about 1/4 leaf width, stem dia is only 1/4 the size and the leaves are about 1/2 the length or so.

They even might be the same species, but a very different population that has a different growth pattern. 

I've had P stellata get this same size and stem dia's as well in the 180.
Almost that size in the 120. I tend to trim before they really start to swell up in the 120 Gal tank however.


----------



## pandacory

plantbrain said:


> Check with Charlie in Long Beach, he might get you the same type of tank for less. Search "Charlie and the Fish tank factory".


Thanks, I actually approached Charlie first on your recommendation and the good reviews on some of the reef forums. He gave me a quote that seemed really high, so when I asked him who the manufacturer was he said Aqua, even though I had specifically requested lee mar on your recommendation. I went to an lfs that I get my frozen foods from, and their reef display is lee mar, so they got me a quote at $250 less than Charlie's.

Nothing against aqua, but they do not seem to have the reputation leemar has, and the only example I have seen had tight black silicone but with some pitting on the outside edge. I do believe it was used, but not confidence inspiring for a sight unseen $$$ purchase. Ada has an advantage there, I know exactly what I'm getting.

Still leaning toward the custom. Now if only I could decide on the height of the thing!

P.s. that stem is huge! It's probably the same amount of plant mass as al the plants in my 20! I can't imagine how many others it must be outcompeting in nutrient uptake and space!


----------



## jgb77

plantbrain said:


> I still plan on adding Erio type 3 back from the 180 and remove the Hydrothrix.
> Hydrothrix is very fast growing like pantanal.
> 
> I'll most likely add the Alternathera roseafolia where the Ammannia is now after it grows out. I have some growing well outside emergent.
> 
> To give you an idea of the differences with Ammannia types, this is what I call normal Ammannia gracilus:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a giant large weed.
> 
> I took small side shoots and smaller stems for the 120 gal, this massive stem plant came out of the 180 Gal tank. That is also where I put the L. pantanal for now.
> 
> I think I'll get a different type of red macrandra, this type is nothing like the one I had prior, it was a mauve color, this is darker red, copperish hue.
> I havwe the purple Bacopa I can also add in place of the L pilosa.


That's what mine looks like as well. I had to remove it from my 75 gallon as it takes up too much space. I just pull off one of the smaller side shoots and toss the huge stem or else it takes up way too much space in a 75.

John


----------



## zzrguy

Look unbeliveable. But the question I did not read was What are you doing withe that huge chunk of drift wood next to the tank.


----------



## dafil

Man,it`s a damn tree-not a stem plant


----------



## plantbrain

dafil said:


> Man,it`s a damn tree-not a stem plant


This is why you rarely see any scapes with this plant unless it's a stunted version.

The version from Manini is much smaller, or senegalensis is not bad, but they get large also, but can be more picky after trimming and recovery. Always use scissors.


----------



## plantbrain

zzrguy said:


> Look unbeliveable. But the question I did not read was What are you doing withe that huge chunk of drift wood next to the tank.


Just decided to keep it as art. I carried it about 1/2 mile down a river, did not know if it'd look good after sandblasting.


----------



## zzrguy

plantbrain said:


> Just decided to keep it as art. I carried it about 1/2 mile down a river, did not know if it'd look good after sandblasting.


 It looks awsome. It would look great in a tall Discus tank. Or make a lamp out of it.


----------



## plantbrain

zzrguy said:


> It looks awsome. It would look great in a tall Discus tank. Or make a lamp out of it.


Yes, not bad for a larger tank, I would not suggest this species for a tank shorter than 20-24", 24-30" is what is needed for its full glory.


----------



## plantbrain

I will do a before and after pic of the hack I did today.

Same for the 180 Gal to give an idea of the production these tanks perform. 
I sold the plants as well.

So when tanks are well tended and cared for, they can make some $ back.
And still look decent while doing it.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Have any trimmings left over to sell?


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Have any trimmings left over to sell?


Not now, but there's always next week:redface:
Stuff grows fast. 

I trimmed the downoi and I thought I'd pull maybe 6-12 plants, turned out I needed to pull 30+ plants.


----------



## pandacory

You are my fish tank hero, and I don't care who knows it.

:hihi:


----------



## Dempsey

I hate looking at your Journals, Tom! Well, since the fire anyway... I will be home in mid October and can't wait to get my tanks started again!

I will be contacting you once I am back up and running!

As always, the tank looks great man. 

I know I asked this before but I am a little unorganized at the moment... Do you know a good site where I can purchase AS?


----------



## keithy

Tom, I would like to get some pointers from you on growing reineckii. I hope mine would grwo to be like a tree too. My reineckii does not seem to grow new leaves at all. I have it in a spot where the light is moderate, and doing ei feritlization and co2. Everything else seem to be growing just fine. Should I move it to a place with less light and more flow?


----------



## plantbrain

Dempsey said:


> I hate looking at your Journals, Tom! Well, since the fire anyway... I will be home in mid October and can't wait to get my tanks started again!
> 
> I will be contacting you once I am back up and running!
> 
> As always, the tank looks great man.
> 
> I know I asked this before but I am a little unorganized at the moment... Do you know a good site where I can purchase AS?


Well, I had bad hair algae for a few weeks, turned out to be CO2.
I'm sure you do not miss doing that

I think either AFA or ADG will take care of you there. Call(do not email) and see. You need to sit down and really consider your design and scape and take the time to do it. Growing plants= fairly easy, but managing them and in a nice way is not the same thing, they do not behave the way you might want them and while you might be able to grow them nice..........scaping with them over time might tell a different story.


----------



## plantbrain

keithy said:


> Tom, I would like to get some pointers from you on growing reineckii. I hope mine would grwo to be like a tree too. My reineckii does not seem to grow new leaves at all. I have it in a spot where the light is moderate, and doing ei feritlization and co2. Everything else seem to be growing just fine. Should I move it to a place with less light and more flow?


This seems to work fairly well for this plant.


----------



## keithy

plantbrain said:


> This seems to work fairly well for this plant.


Thank you tom. Hopefully it will grow to a tree like yours.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

hmm im back with sump questions

i think my duct tape is too awesome.  i can't throttle my pump back enough to keep the media chamber submerged partially. it will straight up empty out and be full of air

so my question. do you think because i have a 3/4 line this could be an issue or is there something im missing here. i've resigned myself to poking a small hole to release some pressure and this does okay but if i don't keep the water level to flooding levels in any sort of emergency.. co2 goes POOF

its cheap stuff so i don't mind putting in more but my 5lb tank lasts 3 weeks on a 29 gallon!

previously would last 3-4 months with a cannister. plant growth is amazing. so im not truly complaining. but the grasshopper seeks direction from the wise one

thanks. and sorry for the hijack

BTW that is a huge tree.. why would you grow a tree in ur tank? LOL

page 2 of ur thread i noticed u had considered dwarf rainbows. i wish u had. i love my praecox and have only lost one to jumping in a 5 month period. almost lost another but it jumped because i scared it


----------



## jccaclimber

HD Blazingwolf said:


> hmm im back with sump questions
> 
> i think my duct tape is too awesome.  i can't throttle my pump back enough to keep the media chamber submerged partially. it will straight up empty out and be full of air
> 
> so my question. do you think because i have a 3/4 line this could be an issue or is there something im missing here. i've resigned myself to poking a small hole to release some pressure and this does okay but if i don't keep the water level to flooding levels in any sort of emergency.. co2 goes POOF


If I read that right you're throttling your pump to control flow. I've only done one overflow setup, but I'm under the impression that you want the pump to be the limiting factor. IE the overflow (when the water level is maxed out) flows faster than the pump can return water. As the water drops the overflow slows until the two match. It's worked well for me, and my overflow doesn't gurgle.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> hmm im back with sump questions
> 
> i think my duct tape is too awesome.  i can't throttle my pump back enough to keep the media chamber submerged partially. it will straight up empty out and be full of air
> 
> so my question. do you think because i have a 3/4 line this could be an issue or is there something im missing here. i've resigned myself to poking a small hole to release some pressure and this does okay but if i don't keep the water level to flooding levels in any sort of emergency.. co2 goes POOF
> 
> its cheap stuff so i don't mind putting in more but my 5lb tank lasts 3 weeks on a 29 gallon!
> 
> previously would last 3-4 months with a cannister. plant growth is amazing. so im not truly complaining. but the grasshopper seeks direction from the wise one
> 
> thanks. and sorry for the hijack
> 
> BTW that is a huge tree.. why would you grow a tree in ur tank? LOL
> 
> page 2 of ur thread i noticed u had considered dwarf rainbows. i wish u had. i love my praecox and have only lost one to jumping in a 5 month period. almost lost another but it jumped because i scared it


One guy ran a small pressure line from the wet/dry section to the over flow and sealed the over flow also.

This keeps the gas at the same pressure in both locations and no escape.


----------



## plantbrain

Found some rare Hygro sp Red, supposedly absent from the hobby for a few years.

Will see how it takes.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

the whole benefit of the wet/ dry is to add oxygen

i like that part so i don't want a huge cannister. i keep trying new things so hopefully i will come up with something

i've tried having a needlewheel pump suck the air out so its getting recycled but that was a huge waste so i wont reccomend that to someone. i've just noticed how well urs works and was hoping for much the same result. and indeed by accident i had it right for the first 3 months but now im doing something wrong

also climber. if my pump is wide open the overflow handles it
my main problem is when i duct tape the wet/dry section all the water leaves that area leavign the media completely emmersed.it holds co2 very well that way but bubbles out air on the sump side about every five seconds, is very annoying and the media gets about 50% usage


----------



## jccaclimber

I'm not sure I'm following you. Once it's settled the amount of water entering the sump should equal the amount leaving, so you don't have a variable amount of air displaced. Can you make a diagram? I feel like I'm missing something.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

i can take a picture 

this was just taken. duct tape has a toothpick sized hole in one corner that vents off pressure currently OTHERWISE
the media chamber empties and air starts bubbling under the baffle to the sump area following the blue arrows

the green lines are current water levels with pressure relief hole made


----------



## jccaclimber

Where is your CO2 being added? I think that may be the difference between our systems.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

The black tube going into the main pump.


----------



## bigstick120

plantbrain said:


> Found some rare Hygro sp Red, supposedly absent from the hobby for a few years.
> 
> Will see how it takes.


Awesome! Thought we lost that one as I havent seen it for a very long time. You'll have lots soon!


----------



## plantbrain

bigstick120 said:


> Awesome! Thought we lost that one as I havent seen it for a very long time. You'll have lots soon!


I've got it in my 120, 180 and 2 trays outside. 
It's been grown emergent, which seems fairly easy for this plant. 

Nice color, but I'm not sure what it'll look like once submersed leaves come in. 
But a lot different than Hygro "araguaia".


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i can take a picture
> 
> this was just taken. duct tape has a toothpick sized hole in one corner that vents off pressure currently OTHERWISE
> the media chamber empties and air starts bubbling under the baffle to the sump area following the blue arrows
> 
> the green lines are current water levels with pressure relief hole made


A simple air line link between the sump and the overflow should prevent this and reduce any CO2 loss.


----------



## Centromochlus

Would love to see some photos of the Hygrophila 'red'!


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> A simple air line link between the sump and the overflow should prevent this and reduce any CO2 loss.


How would u suggest i run it into the overflow?
Into the drain?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> A simple air line link between the sump and the overflow should prevent this and reduce any CO2 loss.


How would u suggest i run it into the overflow?
Into the drain?


----------



## ua hua

HD Blazingwolf said:


> How would u suggest i run it into the overflow?
> Into the drain?


Read through this thread and it should help understand what Tom is suggesting.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/10438-Sump-mods-for-CO2-effeciency


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

I see makes sense!
Now how do i turn that into the oxygenation benefits! I run high light for sure which means a lot of co2. Gotta keep those oxygen levels high. If all im doing is recycling co2 im not adding oxygen. So it essentially becomes a cannister with some surface agiation at the tank level

Unless im missing something here.. i could add an air pump to the mix but then ill be back to adding pressure to a closed system

Im just curious how toms is working so well or if he is killing his co2 just as fast as i am. If thats the case. Im really ok. I just dont want to needlessly throw it away


----------



## ua hua

HD Blazingwolf said:


> I see makes sense!
> Now how do i turn that into the oxygenation benefits! I run high light for sure which means a lot of co2. Gotta keep those oxygen levels high. If all im doing is recycling co2 im not adding oxygen. So it essentially becomes a cannister with some surface agiation at the tank level
> 
> Unless im missing something here.. i could add an air pump to the mix but then ill be back to adding pressure to a closed system
> 
> Im just curious how toms is working so well or if he is killing his co2 just as fast as i am. If thats the case. Im really ok. I just dont want to needlessly throw it away


The skimming from the surface and returning water to the surface and having good surface agitation which saturates the water with large amounts of dissolved oxygen. Also as the water passes over the bio material in the dry portion it mixes with the surrounding air supersaturating the water with oxygen. I feel that I burn through the co2 also but considering the amount of money we spend on the plants the price of the co2 shoud be of no concern. I just consider it a price that you have to pay to have a planted tank the same way you would have to buy the salt and million other trace elements needed to keep a reef tank.


----------



## bigstick120

plantbrain said:


> I've got it in my 120, 180 and 2 trays outside.
> It's been grown emergent, which seems fairly easy for this plant.
> 
> Nice color, but I'm not sure what it'll look like once submersed leaves come in.
> But a lot different than Hygro "araguaia".


It should have wider, leaves, but I recall it growing similar to araguaia, spread horizontally then goes vertical. Take some pics please. I think the read is a slower growing hygro too.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Yeah i dont mind the cost! Co2 is cheap. I have a wet dry for its benefits. I dont wanna negate that! I just dont want to needless waste something if there is a better alternative!

I was under the impression that the siphon break air tube in the drain was really what helped. Because the ump is sealed. Having that pull air down let the media chamber do its work with the drip pan. Thats why i was asking how having a closed loop overflow would not negate the oxygen benefits


----------



## plantbrain

bigstick120 said:


> It should have wider, leaves, but I recall it growing similar to araguaia, spread horizontally then goes vertical. Take some pics please. I think the read is a slower growing hygro too.


I recall Ghori had it for a time way back when.........so folks in the GWAPA group should know the difference.

It's emergent growth is very different than H araguaia.
Very attractive emergent growth actually.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Sorry for the total thread jacking.


----------



## plantbrain

I've had the CO2 running at about 45 ppm, but this should be higher, I'm adjusting it up to the 55ppm range, the 180 seems to grow most any species better and it's CO2 is in the 60-70ppm range.

The 120 runs about 80F and the 180 runs about 84F.

I've seen no melting or stem rot in the Rotala Sunset thus far in the 180.
Several other species do better also like Erio's, L pantanal.

While most of these species still thrive and grow well/acceptable for most hobbyists and you can scape with them effectively.............unless you have something to compare with, you'd simply.....never know you could do better.

Such information is also useful since both tanks have the same brand or light and bulb types, water changes, dosing, sediment, fish load, feeding.......filtration etc...........

This leaves few other obvious major factors left.

Many plants are fine in either tank, but the wimpy ones or the very fast growing ones seem to exhibit the differences.


----------



## jccaclimber

How much CO2 do you go through in the 180 keeping it that high? Is it open topped? I'm sorry if that last one is obviously answered with a photo in this thread, but I'm really bad at gauging tank size in photos if they aren't standard plastic framed tanks.


----------



## plantbrain

jccaclimber said:


> How much CO2 do you go through in the 180 keeping it that high? Is it open topped? I'm sorry if that last one is obviously answered with a photo in this thread, but I'm really bad at gauging tank size in photos if they aren't standard plastic framed tanks.


Not sure, maybe a 10lber's once every 3 months or thereabouts.
Use to be about once every 6-9 months for the 20lb tanks.
Yes, open top.


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> I recall Ghori had it for a time way back when.........so folks in the GWAPA group should know the difference.
> 
> It's emergent growth is very different than H araguaia.
> Very attractive emergent growth actually.


I had this one like 8 years ago from Ghori. It's absolutely huge when grown submersed. We're talking like 8" in diameter from leaf tip to leaf tip. It was cool, but just not suitable for most tanks.

Here it is in my tub pond one summer.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> I had this one like 8 years ago from Ghori. It's absolutely huge when grown submersed. We're talking like 8" in diameter from leaf tip to leaf tip. It was cool, but just not suitable for most tanks.
> 
> Here it is in my tub pond one summer.


Yea, this is what I was afraid of.
Rats........

Well, off to see what other red weeds I can locate.


----------



## plantbrain

I removed the rummie nose tetras today.
Not too bad during a large water change.

They have been picking on the UG and the Elatine hydro piper for some time now. Lots of Fire cherry shrimp have ended up jumping out and in the back there are many crispys.

I may good with a pencil fish. Just has to be one that does not also leap to it's death, so epsei/red arks are out, which stinks, because those are my favs.

I also pulled up the Buce's, they have tripled in a size I could cut up and make 2-3 new plants. I think they will be suited in the rear where I use to have some Anubias coffeefolia. I'll remove the UG and put it back over on the far Left side again, then plant that middle Left area with E Hydropiper like I had prior.

Downoi is not leaving though, I'll use that on the far right and Erio's with make another entrance again.

I'm always on the hunt for a nice red stem plant, that has nice gardening/management. L senegalensis is doing well, I could use some more of that.

I'll likely have the Rotala sunset return or a might make a nice fat stand in my 180 and remove the Ammannia gracilus weed. It's just unsuited due to the growth rate and retrim frequency, even in the 180 it is becoming a pest. 

I added the suspected "Hygro Red" in the 180, it looks a little bit like the emergent growth from Aaron above.

A lot of the issues with removal and switch things around depends on available plants and often times, you only get a little bit, few people offer say 30 Stems of Rotala sunset.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Hm, I've had issues with my Rummynose eating blyxa. That sucks to hear that they eat UG too! And yeah, they will hunt down your shrimp.


----------



## plantbrain

I redid a few things and will go back to some old plants and locations. 
I removed the Buce's for now.

I will move the UG back to the side and let the Elatine Hydropiper fill in were it once was.

Absent are the rummie nose.

If the UG/Elatine do recover and do well this time, then the likelihood they are at fault is very high. Tank is cloudy after all the work.


----------



## plantbrain

If anyone has some of these plants for this tank, please PM me or let me know:

Rotala macrandra narrow
" " pointed leaf
" " Japan
" " mini
Rotala pusilla
L senegalensis
Hygro pantanal
Rotala belem


----------



## ua hua

Some time back when I had s. repens in my tank I started to notice some of the leaves were having bites taken out of them. At first I thought it was my roselines as they always seemed to be the ones messing with the plants until one morning before lights on I looked in my tank to see the rummies going to town on the s. repens. In a matter of a few days they had chewed on almost all of it. Some plants must be tasty to some fish.


----------



## sketch804

Hey Tom, just quick question...did you notice Rummynose Tetra's to be sorta touchy/delicate when in the 180 (or any other tank) with high levels of CO2?? or did they just act normal, minus the hard breathing that is? just wondering because I have some in my 40gal and they do great except for a few. Thanks so much!


----------



## plantbrain

No,

Rummies, cards and most all small tetras are bullet proof at high levels of CO2.
They will behave differently at higher levels of CO2/lower O2.........but they still school and eat like pigs.

Color is intense etc.

I have more touchy fish that tetras in all my tanks.

They come 1st.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Some time back when I had s. repens in my tank I started to notice some of the leaves were having bites taken out of them. At first I thought it was my roselines as they always seemed to be the ones messing with the plants until one morning before lights on I looked in my tank to see the rummies going to town on the s. repens. In a matter of a few days they had chewed on almost all of it. Some plants must be tasty to some fish.


Roselines are just big fast fish, but they never bothered any plants I keep them with. I think rummies just bite at anything to try and flush out shrimp or critters to eat, and they bite and damage plants inadvertently....


----------



## plantbrain

Okay, the rummies were eating the UG and ripping off all new leaves and uprooting the E hydropiper.

The UG is already regrowing after 3-4 days after the rums were removed.

I did not expect such rapid recovery.

This VERY strongly suggest that the rummy's did the deed, the CO2, filter, light, etc, all remain unchanged and I've not seen this nice type of growth since prior to having the rummies, till now.

A classic planted tank fish, killer of the nice foreground plants.


----------



## BeachBum2012

After being away from the hobby for quite a while a friend sent me a link to this thread.

Its been a week, and 93 pages and I am inspired once again. Time to start dusting off the old tanks and trying some new tricks.

Thanks Tom, for being cool enough to share your tanks and knowledge with us.


----------



## plantbrain

93 pages is too long to read


----------



## plantbrain

I'll be watching to the UG recovery rate fairly close the next month.










Got rid of the Hydrothrix in the middle and went back to the Erio setaceum. 
Added some S. manuas and some A. cardinalis "round leaf".

Still pondering working some Erio cinereum or something similar in here.
A few weeks and a few trims, the tank will be back in good shape.










I may move the Ludwigia pilosa over to the Right side and add some brighter red colored plant, might even go back to Rotala sunset.
A good red plant that does not grow too fast and can handle the higher current in this corner has been tough to find.
L pilosa is a good plant regarding growth and current, but a little too like the size/shape as Downoi and not enough color difference to attract the eye.

I also added a new variety of Blyxa, like aubertii that is curly, twisted type leaf. I will remove the Ech, agustifolia type "vesuvius" and replace with this species if it looks nice once new leaves grow in.


----------



## ua hua

I have this bylxa in my tank also and so far it's growing like mad and at 28" now and still growing. Here is a picture of the bylxa aubertii 'Kimberely' in my tank.


----------



## plantbrain

Mine has curly leaves as well, so looks similar.


----------



## ua hua

This plant has a massive root system and I'm a little worried it might be a nutrient hog but time will tell. But it sure does look like the same plant that I have. The only bit on info I could find is on this site and it's not in English so not much help to me.

http://www.rva.ne.jp/plants/ro-blyxa...riey4308-.html


----------



## plantbrain

Likely the same, David Wilson likely collected it if it's from the Kimberly in the NT in Australia. Known him for near 20 years now.


----------



## plantbrain

Trimmed the pantanal again. 

I'll need to wait for the Ludwigia pilosa to grow out more to fill that spot, but the color is lacking so I might go back to the Rotala sunset or try out some new red plants for that spot. I have some L senegalensis, but I think it looks better elsewhere. 

UG is recovering like it should after I removed the Rummies, those suckers are the cause of the pee poor growth.

Added Erio setaceum back, trying a few new plants in the back ground, now I have S belem and manuas, and Tonia all doing nicely. the Blyxa kimerly as I will call it for now was added but I may add it to the rear where the Penthorum is and remove that plant.

I need to figure out what I want as far as the downoi and the Erio cinereum in each corner. I may remove the pennywort.

Also note, Tonia growing emergent.

Tank is dirty after moving things around, but it'll grow in nicely in the next 2 weeks or so for many of the plant species.













Less than 1 week after removing the rummies, I saw something I've not seen for several months: new light fluffy green leaves. Rapid regrowth etc.


----------



## DennisSingh

Mr. Barr,

Formally. First I'd like to say I am a fan and impressed with how you grow your plants. I was hoping you can help me out with my pantanal and goias. I cannot get them red and was wondering whether the issue is lighting, co2, or fertz. I just upgraded my co2 system just today and micro bubbles are all over the place. I have a 20+ gallon high and the fixture is 24w x 4 6500k bulbs(pondering getting 12000ks in the mix). I dose PMDD dry. I dosed today 1 tablespoon + pinch of phosphate before upgrading my co2 system I was dosing 1 teaspoon a day about. Hope you can help me out, I notice your pantanal is not only red at the tops but little lower as well, a look I would like to achieve. Here are before and after pics of my pantanal all from today, after pics 4 hours into the photoperiod. I'm wondering if I have co2 too high now and not dosing enough, all I have is pmdd. I can show you as many pics as you want to figure the problem

before
lights were out for one day till upgraded system so plants are not straight




















































After


























































I am sorry for hijacking your nice thread.


----------



## plantbrain

Looks to be CO2.
4x 24W T 5 on a 20 Gal is a lot of light.

The new CO2 diffuser in the back looks good, so hopefully that will help in the future.

Ferts are the easy part.

You might try some different bulb combos for the T5's.

I use a mix.


----------



## DennisSingh

plantbrain said:


> Looks to be CO2.
> 4x 24W T 5 on a 20 Gal is a lot of light.
> 
> The new CO2 diffuser in the back looks good, so hopefully that will help in the future.
> 
> Ferts are the easy part.
> 
> You might try some different bulb combos for the T5's.
> 
> I use a mix.


Co2: should I go higher or lower?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

StrungOut said:


> Co2: should I go higher or lower?


higher



also tom what pump are u using to get such a fine mist? is it a needle wheel feeding a larger pump? or is it a mag drive with a fractioning impeller?


----------



## DennisSingh

HD Blazingwolf said:


> higher


I don't think I need to go higher, just have patience like a buddy of mine told me. I just got the new system/diffuser and co2 is all over the place. Already I have seen changes, but I am also not dosing as well as doing water changes.

not much but I do notice a difference over a day. I sure want my rotala sunset to stop curling though

















slight change in ludwigia senegalensis as well(2 days). new red growth looks more striking than camera pick up


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

I didnt notice the new system. Yes patience is a virtue then  curling or stunted growth is a classssssiiicc co2 deficiency issue.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Tom, what do you do with all your trimmings?


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> higher
> 
> 
> 
> also tom what pump are u using to get such a fine mist? is it a needle wheel feeding a larger pump? or is it a mag drive with a fractioning impeller?


I use a Lifegard 3000 on this tank..........and the return is a good 5 ft.
No special impeller etc.


----------



## plantbrain

StrungOut said:


> I don't think I need to go higher, just have patience like a buddy of mine told me. I just got the new system/diffuser and co2 is all over the place. Already I have seen changes, but I am also not dosing as well as doing water changes.
> 
> not much but I do notice a difference over a day. I sure want my rotala sunset to stop curling though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> slight change in ludwigia senegalensis as well(2 days). new red growth looks more striking than camera pick up


With very high light, it's a rather obvious thing to assume you need more CO2.

But many seem to go the other way, but not with light, which is counter logically and not based on how plants grow. Time is a factor for sure, but so is experience. I've consistently been able to grow virtually any plant.
Not just so so, but am able to garden and scape with them.

If I run into issues, I know based ona lot of pats experiences, what CO2 issues look like and since I have other tanks without issues and dose the same and use the same lighting...........this leaves pretty much only CO2 as the main large significant variable. Add a couple of decades and 400 plant species to this, and you get a pretty good feel.

Folks often think their CO2 is perfect and it's really an unknown.
Unless you have some method to confirm it and the only way there is with a known standard reference, which few if anyone has ever posted and suggested in this hobby.

I know based on independent non limiting light and nutrients.
Those 2 can certainly influence CO2 and cause dependencies.

So folks often see this and think that the CO2 cannot be the issue, or they have a set up where they cannot add more CO2 without gassing fish, or they are too fast/impatient with adjusting CO2.

Sometimes, it's the lack of general care.
Sometimes it is the lack of water changes and trimming, sometimes the type of filter, surface scum etc.

Hard to say without the details.
On line this is tough, in person this is easy for me.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Tom, what do you do with all your trimmings?


Sell them on my site.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

plantbrain said:


> Sell them on my site.


I was wondering because I don't always see a new sales thread when you say you've trimmed. Unless you hoard them until you can sell a ton?


----------



## DennisSingh

plantbrain said:


> With very high light, it's a rather obvious thing to assume you need more CO2.
> 
> But many seem to go the other way, but not with light, which is counter logically and not based on how plants grow. Time is a factor for sure, but so is experience. I've consistently been able to grow virtually any plant.
> Not just so so, but am able to garden and scape with them.
> 
> If I run into issues, I know based ona lot of pats experiences, what CO2 issues look like and since I have other tanks without issues and dose the same and use the same lighting...........this leaves pretty much only CO2 as the main large significant variable. Add a couple of decades and 400 plant species to this, and you get a pretty good feel.
> 
> Folks often think their CO2 is perfect and it's really an unknown.
> Unless you have some method to confirm it and the only way there is with a known standard reference, which few if anyone has ever posted and suggested in this hobby.
> 
> I know based on independent non limiting light and nutrients.
> Those 2 can certainly influence CO2 and cause dependencies.
> 
> So folks often see this and think that the CO2 cannot be the issue, or they have a set up where they cannot add more CO2 without gassing fish, or they are too fast/impatient with adjusting CO2.
> 
> Sometimes, it's the lack of general care.
> Sometimes it is the lack of water changes and trimming, sometimes the type of filter, surface scum etc.
> 
> Hard to say without the details.
> On line this is tough, in person this is easy for me.


I'm seeing slight changes but I expected to see rapid changes right away. I'm pumping even more co2 daily, hope the diffuser can handle it without throwing bigger bubbles that donn't get diffusion. But here are the changes I see:

I just wish I can find a good balance without overdoing it too much. Still haven't dosed yet. I think I was overdoing it on the dosing as well.

Pantanal









senegalensis, came with hair algae and I haven't been able to eradicate it









rotala sunset: still twisting leaves, not curling, my mistake.
Tom in your experience, how long given co2 levels are correct does it take to notice a change? I am not seeing changes with this plant

















goias starting to turn slightly slightly pink, I don't know if the camera picked it up, as I look at all the leaves, a lot of them are changing from their pure green to very very very slow pink


----------



## @[email protected]

plantbrain said:


> Sell them on my site.


speaking of which, do you think youll have any e. hydropiper anytime soon? id only be looking for 1-2 square inches.


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> speaking of which, do you think youll have any e. hydropiper anytime soon? id only be looking for 1-2 square inches.


No, will be some time yet.


----------



## Talkyn

That is one killer piece of driftwood. What an amazing hardscape! Tom you've inspired me to very patiently plan out my next tank for sure.

I really like how your tank has multiple viewing angles yet remains so appealing. Very tricky to do indeed.

roud: Very nice sir!


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

take in mind strung out. plants take about 1-2 weeks to really respond to changes. sure their are some more immediate signs
but new leaves wont start growing larger and healthier for about a week given normal light levels
of course if ur tank is on super light sunpower mode, the response to things gowing the right way will be faster


----------



## DennisSingh

HD Blazingwolf said:


> take in mind strung out. plants take about 1-2 weeks to really respond to changes. sure their are some more immediate signs
> but new leaves wont start growing larger and healthier for about a week given normal light levels
> of course if ur tank is on super light sunpower mode, the response to things gowing the right way will be faster


Note taken sir.


----------



## plantbrain

These are pics 3 days after treatment with API algae fix.
You can see zero damage to all plant species and fish are fine.

This tank had a touch of BBA flair up due to the purposed reduction in CO2(pH went up 0.3).
This induced a nice healthy aggressive green hair algae bloom mostly, the UG was covered as where most stem plants and the R wallichii.

There is no hair algae left.

I was hoping to test the Algae fix to kill the low grade fire shrimp.
This failed, I found dozens left.

The algae test however, was a success.

Seems the algaefix will kill many/most of the shrimps, but not 100%.
In test tanks without as many plants and soil etc, this is not the case.
Soil likely binds and bacteria laden tanks can perhaps break the pesticide AI much more than the bare tanks.

I'm quite pleased at the selectivity.

As many cannot remove all their shrimp, this at least gives then some chance and perhaps you can remove them here and there during treatment, and there's no adverse impact on mosses or any vascular plants I can discern.

So far this product was effective killing the most troublesome hair algae species(Rhizo, Spirogyra, Vaucheria, Cladophora).
I have not tested it on Algae balls. Those are easy to remove during treatment.

I do not think it kills diatoms, BBA, BGA at all.
Otto's and plecos can address most all diatom issues I've ever seen.

BBA:CO2/Excel Spot treatments with Excel/H2O2, SAE's etc.
BGA:Blackouts, KNO3, EM and KNO3 post dosing.

GDA: I need to hear back from more folks on this. Result seem encouraging. I had a strong aggressive bloom and it took care of it with one treatment. 
Other long time victims are trying it.
























Note the UG, the growth and the difference since the Rummies have been removed is astounding.










Compare when I induced the algae:










Then the week prior to that:


----------



## speedie408

I'll have to keep that stuff in mind next time I get an outbreak . Good stuff Tom!


----------



## plantbrain

speedie408 said:


> I'll have to keep that stuff in mind next time I get an outbreak . Good stuff Tom!


Well, it's good for green algae, not much else other than trying to kill shrimp.

Does not kill the root issue.

Still, I can easily kill green algae now and do more test on what INDUCES green algae without a lot of work/labor to reset the tank.

BBA, diatoms, BGA are pretty easy to control and manage in this type of tank and we know general trends there.

Less so for GDA, Hair algae etc. Cladophora is very tough to get rid of, you need to remove every strand like Riccia.


----------



## plantbrain

Also found some more of that red liverwort on the Buce's.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

That kinda sucks that your Rummies were eating the UG, as I'd really like a carpet in my tank. What do you fee them?


----------



## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> Also found some more of that red liverwort on the Buce's.


I'm interested in seeing a picture of this.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> I'm interested in seeing a picture of this.


Cross BBA with Riccia.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> That kinda sucks that your Rummies were eating the UG, as I'd really like a carpet in my tank. What do you fee them?


Brine, mysid, flake, and they go after and will eat Fire shrimp.


----------



## plantbrain

I'll be making the following changes:
1. Will move the Buce's back up front and might use them in the 60p ADA tank.
2. the UG will eventually be removed and used in the 70 Gallon manzi gumi tank and I'll rip out the Hairgrass.
3. Where the UG is, will be replaced with Elatine hydropiper. The Rummies attacked that also.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

plantbrain said:


> Brine, mysid, flake, and they go after and will eat Fire shrimp.


I'd feed them bloodworms instead. They go nuts. Some also say to stay away from feeding crustaceans, as they might be hard to digest. 

Did you put them in your 180G? Tell me how that goes, as mine ate all of my blyxa. I wonder if they're some vegetable supplement for them.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> I'd feed them bloodworms instead. They go nuts. Some also say to stay away from feeding crustaceans, as they might be hard to digest.
> 
> Did you put them in your 180G? Tell me how that goes, as mine ate all of my blyxa. I wonder if they're some vegetable supplement for them.


No, sold them.

I've fed them BW before, they are ravenous fish and get a wide diet range.


----------



## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> Cross BBA with Riccia.


Oh great the two things I hate most.


----------



## toksyn

Did you already get red of the red liverwort? I'm actually interested in taking it off your hands if it's something you don't want.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Oh great the two things I hate most.


In the past, I refused to sell it to Tropica for culture. 
Or other hobbyist.

It took me about 3 years to kill it off.

It's actually a red alga:

http://www.oyla.de/cgi-bin/designs/...ext&id=02132831&userid=89855347&starteintrag=

http://szemian.fotosik.pl/albumy/288037.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=162181

http://www.anbg.gov.au/amanisearch/...5ACC7B54A8FC96D353?mainid=1975&divisiontype=M


----------



## plantbrain

UG Recovery 2nd week after Rummy nose tetras were removed: compare to the above older pics. 










Compare this with the pic posted on 9/20. 










A few days later new growth:


----------



## KFryman

Tom your tanks are all amazing, but I love the idea of this tank. Dutch style has always awing to look at. Subbed since this tank changes so much.


----------



## plantbrain

I've recently saw a nice tank that used higher sloping rows of plant,s nice red green contrast, but it has a slightly more Nature style to it.

Technically, it was more "Dutch" than this particular scape.

This tank and others like it are very good teachers.

It teaches you:

1. A lot about keeping the tank very clean and organized.....
2. How to deal with many new species and fussy plants
3. Growth rates and timing
4. How to trim different ways for each species
5. How filter and get the flow right
6. How to best remove mulm and detritus
7. Colors and contrast that work well together
8. Textural contrast.
9. Fluffing and preening effect on plants.
10. Sweet spots for some species, and bad locations for others.


----------



## plantbrain

I moved the L pilosa(or whatever the new name is) behind the Downoi and then moved the L senegalensis behind that.

I added a nice large patch of Buce's on the far Right corner region.
Then returned the bunch in the middle by the Ludwigia "Red".
I might add some L breviceps on the right behind the Buce's.
Need to find a nice red plant for that spot.

I'll be removing the UG which will be taking over the 70 Gal hairgrass manzigumi tank and I'll phase out the Hair grass in that tank. the 70 Gal will be a cool water tank. Same with the ADA 60p. I'll be removing those fish for native US fish.

This is the tank last week, I'll take some pics tomorrow.


----------



## ua hua

Do you not have any fish in this tank right now?


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Do you not have any fish in this tank right now?


there are 40 Pencils N eques........3 Gold nuggets, 3 Double trunk elephant nose, 3 Red phantoms I have not be able to catch, 3 coral ark pencils that just have never jumped out for some weird reason.

See them all? :redface:

No ya don't..........at night or if you sit and look.............


----------



## mistahoo

I think I see a fish! Lol. I don't see many Dutch style tanks because of all the ADA stuff and Iwagumi stuff. I like it. Very nice!

Sent from my spaceship using Tapatalk 2.


----------



## MyMonkey

Amazing colors!


----------



## plantbrain

Note the UG today and compare about 3.5 weeks ago, there is simply no denying the Rummy nose attacking this plant. 










I am still going to add the Rotala sunset back. I placed it in the 180 Gal and then removed it and placed it back here. It's growing very well so I'll fill that row out in the next 3-4 weeks or so.










Also returned at the Buce's. 
I have some Erios, extra Buce's, and Red tennellus I'm pondering what to do with in the Right corn of the tank:











I may work some wood, moss attached to wood, Mini Pellia attached to wood etc to create a border.......or just add one of those species as a group. I'm leaning towards the Buce's. 
Another weed might be Riccia on a piece of wood etc. 

I'll remove the Blyxa Kimerly.
They will get too large for this tank's display.











Downoi is a really nice plant for this side, does extremely well in this tank. 
L. senegalensis has done very well from the cuttings I got awhile ago. Not the best contrast plant in this tank however. Need to think and search for some better contrast plants with that one. 
L. pilsoa(old name) is in a nice spot, I'll keep that there from now on. There's some smaller grow out Ludwigia pilosa on the far Right also, those will eventually be removed.
I may need to bring back Myriophyllum tuberculatum, nice copper color and very fine pinnate leaves.


----------



## @[email protected]

the tank looks fantastic. 
is that 1 stem in the back going emersed?


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> the tank looks fantastic.
> is that 1 stem in the back going emersed?


Tonina lotus blossom.

I'm going to try and grow more of it this way. There are 3 stems there now.


----------



## AirstoND

Tank looks delicious


----------



## @[email protected]

plantbrain said:


> Tonina lotus blossom.
> 
> I'm going to try and grow more of it this way. There are 3 stems there now.


love that plant. just got my first few stems of it a few days ago and am absolutely in love.
do you notice it growing faster emersed or submerged? i might want to move a stem into my emersed setup...


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Tom, I see you're looking for Rotala sunset. What did you do with the ones you had in this tank?


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> love that plant. just got my first few stems of it a few days ago and am absolutely in love.
> do you notice it growing faster emersed or submerged? i might want to move a stem into my emersed setup...


It's about the same growth rate.
I think it's the nicest of the Tonina types.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Tom, I see you're looking for Rotala sunset. What did you do with the ones you had in this tank?


I sold it off and tried some other plant species, then did not like those, so I went back.

I still have a few stems I saved just in case........and I have a few in there now, but I'd rather not wait 2 months, I'd rather just fill it in quicker.


----------



## plantbrain

I've made a few slight changes, thinned/sold a bunch of downoi.

I will get the Elatine hydropiper back this coming week. The UG likely will be used in the 70 Gal along with the belem hair grass. Might keep some in this tank also. 

I am going to use some Rotala "Vietnam" on the right mid ground. I've had it in the tank for about 6 months, mixed in with the R wallichii. I'll pull it out and place it up front.

Not sure quite what to do with the "Ech tennellus" red variant. I might put it out in emergent culture. Buce's, E. triandra, Erios, Dowoni are a bit more interesting for the spot where they are at right now. 
Has a very nice deep red in my tank.

The Syn. belem and the manuas are doing quite well, the new round leaf A reineckii variant is stunting on the tips, but it's under the high light section, the A. roseafolia I placed in the darkest corner where it does wonderful.
I have a fair amount of emergent A roseafolia now outside.

I think the rond leaf type is a nice looking plant, I just need less light for it to look nice but I wanted to see if it was like many of the others. I'll take some for emergent culture and move to the rear more. Problem is...those nice large copper red leaves are not easy to replace with another plant species.

I'm pondering some Neasea pedicillata again. 

Looking for:

Rotala butterfly
More Rotala sunset


----------



## @[email protected]

question about r. butterfly (now that youve mentioned it), ive found some conflicting information. when it goes green, does it stay r. macrandra green, or can it revert back to butterfly again? 
i was sent some as a freebie and it arrived green. looks nice, but its not the jaw-dropping blood red plant i see in some pics. 
id offer you a stem since your looking for it, but i only have 4 since i just got it, and even if i gave you all of it, youd still probably need more.


----------



## JoraaÑ

Rotala butterfly- I have but what Marko said^i^...I have few stems: Lmk if you want to try those green stuff and use your magic to bring it back to Red color.


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> question about r. butterfly (now that youve mentioned it), ive found some conflicting information. when it goes green, does it stay r. macrandra green, or can it revert back to butterfly again?
> i was sent some as a freebie and it arrived green. looks nice, but its not the jaw-dropping blood red plant i see in some pics.
> id offer you a stem since your looking for it, but i only have 4 since i just got it, and even if i gave you all of it, youd still probably need more.


Just wait and work with it.


----------



## plantbrain

Joraan said:


> Rotala butterfly- I have but what Marko said^i^...I have few stems: Lmk if you want to try those green stuff and use your magic to bring it back to Red color.


They have some locally, but not enough to sell yet.

Manini might have some also.


----------



## @[email protected]

plantbrain said:


> Just wait and work with it.


will do.
my r. macrandra variegated is showing some spectacular color, so hopefully the r. macrandra butterfly/green will follow suit.

how long do you think it will be til you can harvest the e. hydropiper your gonna plant?


----------



## Exceliber

plantbrain said:


>


I'm absolutely blown away by this. It's gorgeous!


----------



## Ashok

I think I've posted the same message already in this thread a few times : This tank is stunning!


----------



## catfishbi

should try some mini butterfly, very beautiful.  




plantbrain said:


> They have some locally, but not enough to sell yet.
> 
> Manini might have some also.


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> will do.
> my r. macrandra variegated is showing some spectacular color, so hopefully the r. macrandra butterfly/green will follow suit.
> 
> how long do you think it will be til you can harvest the e. hydropiper your gonna plant?


I tossed the Red macrandra tonight when I moved a few things.

I replaced it with the Ludwigia senegalensis, this was a good call for that spot and similar in many ways. L senegalensis is easier to deal with and people will actually buy it.

Rotala mac green is very easy to grow FYI.

I also removed the red tennellus and placed the Hygro araguaia on the far right. I'll fatten up the Rotala "Vietnam" on the far right as well. I have about 6 tops of the Tonina growing emergent right now and am trying another propagation method for the scrap bottom stumps.

It'll be another couple of months before I sell any E hydropiper, but it'll happen.


----------



## plantbrain

I removed the Rotala macrandra and replaced with the Ludwigia senegalensis, added some Hygro pinn.
I removed 18 Downoi between this pic and the last post. 

Does not look like it does it? And I culled only the largest mother plants, not the runts. 
The Rotala sunset has not blackened at all and has really grown in nice.
Hopefully it will continue and not blacken again.
I have some Myrio tuberlatcum that is going to fine a home somewhere.

I also have some Hygro Cherry leaf, I want to see if they will redden up enough for use.
I also have some Rotala magenta. This plant is common, but rarely does well for many aquarist. 
It's always come in with Bladderwort and hair algae on it when I've bought it in the past.
I'll see how it fairs next to the R sunset. 

The Rotala "sunset" will likely be a permanent plant from now on.

Some other ideas I pondered were pulling the Syn Belem and placing it where those erios and Erio setaceum are in that middle row. 
Then moving the Erio cinerum down the row some and to the right side, then place the Erio setaceums somewhere in the rear. 

This would look pretty good also,
I could place the Downoi in that row also, then move the UG over the Downoi's placement is now, then add ther elatine hydropiper where the UG is now.

I'll be removing the UG from this spot either way.
Some/most may end up in the 70 Gal manzigumi and I may remove the belem grass.


----------



## plantbrain

Before(Oct 7th)











After 5 days and replanting the Downoi:
(Oct 13th)












Note Downoi and the Rotala Sunset growth(5 day's worth of growth, no necrosis).
Maybe the high fish load, the rummy's ....something was doing the Rotala in. It's growing awesome with no fall back.


----------



## Centromochlus

Looks great, Tom.
What is Hygrophila cherry leaf?


----------



## stevenjohn21

Over 110k views !!! I think ive contributed to 60% of that.....Cant stop looking at this tank LOL
Tom , you fancy a trip to Atlanta to make my tank look like that ? ha ha


----------



## plantbrain

AzFishKid said:


> Looks great, Tom.
> What is Hygrophila cherry leaf?


Giant Hygro "cherry", sort of like reddish basil.
Common plant actually.


----------



## antbug

Need any more h. Pinn?

I also have 2 stems of sunset for you. Maybe trade for something?


----------



## Centromochlus

plantbrain said:


> Giant Hygro "cherry", sort of like reddish basil.
> Common plant actually.


Oh, a variant of Hygrophila corymbosa. Was unfamiliar with that name. Nice plant.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Need any more h. Pinn?
> 
> I also have 2 stems of sunset for you. Maybe trade for something?


Sure thing, you can see the R sunset difference in the Oct 7th vs the Oct 13th pic, it's doubled in size with zero die back.

I'm not sure if I'll use the H pinn except in the background for color and texture differences. So hold off on that.

But you can pick a trade item for sure.
I have a couple of R sunset emergent outside.
But I think I'll leave them there just in case.


----------



## plantbrain

AzFishKid said:


> Oh, a variant of Hygrophila corymbosa. Was unfamiliar with that name. Nice plant.


Yes, I can move it to the 180 also, but would prefer something a bit more salable.


----------



## antbug

Is tomorrow around lunch time a good time to stop by? I was thinking of trying pantanal. I need something red for my mini l tank. Right now I have Stauro repens and P São Paulo. The São Paulo just doesn't work and it grows too fast. Open to suggestion.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Is tomorrow around lunch time a good time to stop by? I was thinking of trying pantanal. I need something red for my mini l tank. Right now I have Stauro repens and P São Paulo. The São Paulo just doesn't work and it grows too fast. Open to suggestion.


And you want the red pant eh? hehe
It's fine in my 180 actually, gets nicer in there.

I can try the Sao Paulo, the Pant might be a bit large for that tank perhaps, R wallichii grows too fast also.

Ludwigia "red" might work, H araguaia, some of the rotala's, I have some Red macrandra you can have and some R colorata also. R butterfly and magenta seem troublesome over time, but I have not grown them much either, so I'll find out in the next coupe of months again.

Tues-Friday will be much better for me.
Mon I will not be around till 4-5 pm.


----------



## @[email protected]

plantbrain said:


> Giant Hygro "cherry", sort of like reddish basil.
> Common plant actually.


do you have a link to a representative image?
i tried google, but all the images i see just look either h. corymbosa (the regular var) or h. corymbosa kompakt.


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> And you want the red pant eh? hehe
> It's fine in my 180 actually, gets nicer in there.
> 
> I can try the Sao Paulo, the Pant might be a bit large for that tank perhaps, R wallichii grows too fast also.
> 
> Ludwigia "red" might work, H araguaia, some of the rotala's, I have some Red macrandra you can have and some R colorata also. R butterfly and magenta seem troublesome over time, but I have not grown them much either, so I'll find out in the next coupe of months again.
> 
> Tues-Friday will be much better for me.
> Mon I will not be around till 4-5 pm.


Tuesday works for me. 

I'll bring the 2 stems of R. Sunset and my P. Sao Paulo (submerged and emersed).


----------



## plantbrain

Hacked back the Syn belem, one group was sold as manuas, but it's belem, that's okay though, nice plant either way.

I combined both groups and gave them a good trim. Hacked the R wallichii back, Ludwigia pilosa, mini Myrio, trimmed some Red Ludwigia for some folks, trimmed the R magenta and then pruned and replanted the tops of R sunset, I got about 7-8 nice tops. One stem from the original 2stems I planted seem to get that weird necrosis after a few days. Still not sure why, 2 days ago is was growing great and the stem next to it is/still fine.

I'll redo the Left side and put the UG on the far Left and then the downoi perhaps in the Erio row. The E hydropiper will go where the UG is now.


----------



## plantbrain

Did a big hack today. 

Needed since I'll be gone for about 2 weeks.

I like the new scape and there's some empty spots waiting for the Elatine hydropiper to come. 

Rotala magenta(R macrandra "narrow") is doing well. I have the Rotala sunset and the R. magenta next to each other. I will decide who is going to stay and who will be moved later as they grow out more. 
I'll post some new pics tomorrow evening.

Be nice to compare those with the next two weeks later pics.


----------



## fusiongt

Curious, what will you do with the tank if you're gone for 2 weeks? Is there anyone there to come in and help add in fertz or fill up water?


----------



## kalawai2000

Aloha Tom

This tank is simply a work of art.. your tanks have always been my favorite setups.
You are a Master of Planted Tanks.


----------



## plantbrain

I am going to move the UG to the far left and add Elatine hydropiper in the UG space.
I have some moss and perhaps another red plant for the far Right hand corner. 











Close up of the UG recovery post Rummy nose removal:









Top Right rear corner:









The Ludwigia "pilosa"(old incorrect name) does very well for me, but only recently started to grow straighter.
I removed the H "pinnifata". Also added a Bolbitus short leaf form, will see if it stays small in the 5-6" range.


----------



## AaronT

How're you liking the CPR overflows? Any issues with loss of siphon? I'm adding a sump to my setup soon. I'm fedup with surface scum and excess equipment in the tank.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> How're you liking the CPR overflows? Any issues with loss of siphon? I'm adding a sump to my setup soon. I'm fedup with surface scum and excess equipment in the tank.


Well, keep a spare aqualift pump and a repair kit handy.
I use pipe cleaners to ream the suction and use the tygon tubing so you can micro wave and clear any algae out.

Sumps are good if you minimize any loss CO2. This also includes the pre filter.
I'm adding some modifications to the prefilters coming up in the next 1-2 months. 

You can also set the herbie/bean animal style set up on the over flow to reduce loss(but makes the noise go way down also). Some seal the prefilter box side also.

If the siphon loses, the tank has some amount of leeway and the sump runs dry if you set it up right. The siphon lost is gradual IME, it is something you'd catch fairly easily day to day.

If you leave for 2 weeks, maybe not.

Surface scum is just one issue, but they are much easier to clean, much higher O2, and much easier to add CO2 at a wide range of ppm's, the water evaporation lines are not an issue. All this means you can muck things up and not have nearly as many issues.


----------



## jccaclimber

Rather than a lifter pump couldn't you just set up a venturi line between the section over the side of the tank and a downtube?


----------



## Forumsnow

I have a whole boat load of the rotala macranda "Japan red" if you would like to try it. Have probably 20 super healthy stems I could offer for trade. Was just offering as you said you were looking for another red.


----------



## plantbrain

jccaclimber said:


> Rather than a lifter pump couldn't you just set up a venturi line between the section over the side of the tank and a downtube?


Sure, but if the hose or intake gets clogged with a leaf etc, or a shrimp etc.......that does little to resolve it.

Simply keeping a close eye on it.

For future tanks and designs, I have another idea similar to many of the reef folks.

For a quick decent add on that can be moved around, they are pretty good though.


----------



## plantbrain

Forumsnow said:


> I have a whole boat load of the rotala macranda "Japan red" if you would like to try it. Have probably 20 super healthy stems I could offer for trade. Was just offering as you said you were looking for another red.


Thank you very much. 

I'm actually sort of done with the normal or slight variations of macrandra.
I had the Japan next to the normal and could not tell the difference myself.


----------



## plantbrain

fusiongt said:


> Curious, what will you do with the tank if you're gone for 2 weeks? Is there anyone there to come in and help add in fertz or fill up water?


I turn the lights down for some tanks.
Some I shorten the day length. 

I hire a college student stop by and add water and clean prefilters of leaves etc.


----------



## ua hua

Tom, is that rotala magenta that is in front of the rotala sunset? I have some of that in my tank and when I received it it was almost a hot pink color as it was grown emersed. After transitioning to submerged growth and some stunting from co2 not being ideal I finally got the new growth coming in like it should but I have been reading this plant can be a pain. Have you grown this plant before and what are your experiences with it. I really love the look of the L. Patanal and will need to try this one some time.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Tom, is that rotala magenta that is in front of the rotala sunset? I have some of that in my tank and when I received it it was almost a hot pink color as it was grown emersed. After transitioning to submerged growth and some stunting from co2 not being ideal I finally got the new growth coming in like it should but I have been reading this plant can be a pain. Have you grown this plant before and what are your experiences with it. I really love the look of the L. Patanal and will need to try this one some time.


I think most people have the same experience with the R magenta/narrow macrandra. I'd say many try, and fail. It's easy to grow commercially, but tough in the hobby. Which is why we see it. I've never seen anyone sell clippings continuously. Jeff , a local member in SF area had the best looking bunch. So it can be done, the growth on mine from the 1st batch is doing very well, there is a 2nd batch I added to give it a try. This location is high current and bright. Rotala macrandra and it would seem this plant, do very well near/in current IME. 
The L pantanal is heavily trimmed often, it takes a lot of work to keep it this short and compact. Maybe 10-15 min a week for that one plant. I do not even bother selling it etc, I just toss the ratty parts and keep only the best.


R magenta/narrow mac has a nice deep rich red color. I may give up on R butterfly because this should be so close and looks nice. I may end up placing it elsewhere after awhile, maybe on the far right side next to the Tonina. But that will be later after the R. sunset and the R. magenta grow out 1st. 
I've failed with it many times, but I've learned a few things this last few years, so I'll see if that will help. I think I can scape with it nicely. I did well with it ina couple of tanks, but I was still not able to offer trimmings for sale. That is the key factor, if you can do that, only then are you successful IMO. 
Due to the current in this spot and the requirement for color, shorter trimmed species etc. It's not an easy spot to fill. L "pilosa" does very well etc, just lacks the right color.
The R. magenta I have has not stunted, but it VERY OFTEN comes in with U. gibba, bladderwort infestations and of course hair algae, mostly Spirogyra. 
Algaefix takes care of that after a couple of days, then carefully picking off the bladderwort...so then they are ready to add.
I trim it pretty short and then leave it alone. Looks like it's doing very well. One of the sunset stems melts and went black. Still no clue why. The others are fine and doing well.

I am considering mini Riccia if I can find any.


----------



## wijnands

Still a lovely piece of wood. The colour mix is unlike anything I've ever seen. Sorry to say this but this is not traditional dutch style. It could be a very nice way to bring the Dutch style into the here and now. (I'm Dutch myself)

That red stuf in the back corner is Ludwigia "pilosa? love it!


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> Well, keep a spare aqualift pump and a repair kit handy.
> I use pipe cleaners to ream the suction and use the tygon tubing so you can micro wave and clear any algae out.
> 
> Sumps are good if you minimize any loss CO2. This also includes the pre filter.
> I'm adding some modifications to the prefilters coming up in the next 1-2 months.
> 
> You can also set the herbie/bean animal style set up on the over flow to reduce loss(but makes the noise go way down also). Some seal the prefilter box side also.
> 
> If the siphon loses, the tank has some amount of leeway and the sump runs dry if you set it up right. The siphon lost is gradual IME, it is something you'd catch fairly easily day to day.
> 
> If you leave for 2 weeks, maybe not.
> 
> Surface scum is just one issue, but they are much easier to clean, much higher O2, and much easier to add CO2 at a wide range of ppm's, the water evaporation lines are not an issue. All this means you can muck things up and not have nearly as many issues.


As long as it's a gradual maintenance thing and not a sudden loss of siphon I can handle that. It's still easier than taking apart a canister filter every two weeks because the flow has slowed down again. 

Ideally I'd like to use one of these overflows from www.glass-holes.com, but I cannot get a straight answer as to whether my old style ADA 90-P has tempered or non-tempered sides. 

I found a good deal on a used CPR CS90, Aqualifter pump and Pro Clear wet / dry so I'll try that out for now.


----------



## plantbrain

wijnands said:


> Still a lovely piece of wood. The colour mix is unlike anything I've ever seen. Sorry to say this but this is not traditional dutch style. It could be a very nice way to bring the Dutch style into the here and now. (I'm Dutch myself)
> 
> That red stuf in the back corner is Ludwigia "pilosa? love it!


Very true, but no need to be sorry, this a is a* long way from being Dutch (NBAT) style.* That said, it is not Nature style either and used a mix of of both styles, but overall, takes more from the Dutch style with more ordered uniform groups planted more as a "garden" style. 

In the rear Left side, yes, that is the L "pilosa".

Sort of a copper colored plant. A well behaved plant.


----------



## rrastro

AaronT said:


> Ideally I'd like to use one of these overflows from www.glass-holes.com, but I cannot get a straight answer as to whether my old style ADA 90-P has tempered or non-tempered sides.


I remember reading somewhere that there is some trick taking pictures of the glass with an iphone that demonstrates whether the glass is tempered or not. Can't think of where I saw it but the search function is your friend.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> As long as it's a gradual maintenance thing and not a sudden loss of siphon I can handle that. It's still easier than taking apart a canister filter every two weeks because the flow has slowed down again.
> 
> Ideally I'd like to use one of these overflows from www.glass-holes.com, but I cannot get a straight answer as to whether my old style ADA 90-P has tempered or non-tempered sides.
> 
> I found a good deal on a used CPR CS90, Aqualifter pump and Pro Clear wet / dry so I'll try that out for now.


Yes, it is gradual.
I'd not accept it otherwise :icon_eek:

Flow is always constant with a sump.
I have a separate loop for the canister on client tanks or a massive oversized 100sq or larger canister. For smaller tanks, run a 250 GPH HOT magnum with micron cartridge and then a post water filter with a 50 micron or a 5 if you want to polish for a day etc.

The *external* built in over flow is what ADA does. Otherwise you have an ugly box inside the tank. The CPR is a trade off and at least you can move the box around or remove for a picture. The smallest CPR is suitable for the 90p.

Buy a lid with that prefilter and see if you can drill a small hole on the side or bottom and make it herbie/bean animal style and add another small drain.
Then see if you can add some weather seal on the lid to reduce cO2 loss there.

You should be set then.


----------



## plantbrain

plantbrain said:


> Close up of the UG recovery post Rummy nose removal:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top Right rear corner:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Ludwigia "pilosa"(old incorrect name) does very well for me, but only recently started to grow straighter.
> I removed the H "pinnifata". Also added a Bolbitus short leaf form, will see if it stays small in the 5-6" range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bottom pic, the copper color plant is Ludwigia "pilosa"(incorrect species)


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> Well, keep a spare aqualift pump and a repair kit handy.
> I use pipe cleaners to ream the suction and use the tygon tubing so you can micro wave and clear any algae out.


Which tygon tubing do you use? There's about 12 different types.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

I'm wondering. How's the growth rate of your Syngonanthus? I have some, and it's doing well, but it grows very slowly.


----------



## DTDPlanted

plantbrain, really enjoying this thread. These ADA tanks are amazing. That being said, to your latest scape/pictures....WOW, one of the most pleasing I have seen. I find its a great balance between a human-influenced scape, but subtle enough to still feel like a natural setting. I could sit around and watch that tank all day if that was in my living room! For the future if you feel like changing anything I have one suggestion. I find the current scape really reminds me of the roots of a tree, perhaps that is what you are going for. if you find a peace of drift wood that is more upright with the branch coming down it would give it a great hanging "weeping-willow" type look! Keep up the great work!


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> Which tygon tubing do you use? There's about 12 different types.


Food grade thicker stuff.

Thicker = better


----------



## plantbrain

DTDPlanted said:


> plantbrain, really enjoying this thread. These ADA tanks are amazing. That being said, to your latest scape/pictures....WOW, one of the most pleasing I have seen. I find its a great balance between a human-influenced scape, but subtle enough to still feel like a natural setting. I could sit around and watch that tank all day if that was in my living room! For the future if you feel like changing anything I have one suggestion. I find the current scape really reminds me of the roots of a tree, perhaps that is what you are going for. if you find a peace of drift wood that is more upright with the branch coming down it would give it a great hanging "weeping-willow" type look! Keep up the great work!


It is not a "Nature aquarium", not even close. 
Nor is it a Dutch aquarium.
Too much red to be called a Taiwanese aquarium.

Perhaps some hybrid but not in any one group.
I do not plan such things though, my goal was purely just strong color contrast, red/green/red, green etc. The layout was simple as well, use the wood to make planting sections for each species, the rest just falls into place.


----------



## plantbrain

DTDPlanted said:


> plantbrain, really enjoying this thread. These ADA tanks are amazing. That being said, to your latest scape/pictures....WOW, one of the most pleasing I have seen. I find its a great balance between a human-influenced scape, but subtle enough to still feel like a natural setting. I could sit around and watch that tank all day if that was in my living room! For the future if you feel like changing anything I have one suggestion. I find the current scape really reminds me of the roots of a tree, perhaps that is what you are going for. if you find a peace of drift wood that is more upright with the branch coming down it would give it a great hanging "weeping-willow" type look! Keep up the great work!


I actually am more reactionary and well, it just fit the best based on what I had. Very little higher artistic thought is put into 90% of the scapes I do. 

If I do that, they turn out bad

Seriously.

Someone said and asked if it was based on some dinosaur bones recently. Err.......yea, sure it was, yea. :redface:


----------



## ua hua

How is the rotala magenta doing? I came to the conclusion that I can't grow the rotala macrandra in my tank. I don't quite know what to think as the rotala magenta became very stunted on the new growth and started to get some hair algae on it so it became compost before it spread to anything else. The rotala macrandra that I have planted twice looked really good for a few weeks then it started to melt from the bottom up. I have been thinking about a plant to put in the place of the rotala and everytime I look at your tank the Patanal stands out so that is the plant that I need to find now.


----------



## andrewss

plantbrain said:


> I actually am more reactionary and well, it just fit the best based on what I had. Very little higher artistic thought is put into 90% of the scapes I do.
> 
> If I do that, they turn out bad
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> Someone said and asked if it was based on some dinosaur bones recently. Err.......yea, sure it was, yea. :redface:



heh it is what it is, and it happens to be a great looking tank - you have some really healthy lookin plants with great colors to play off each other - great job and great tank


----------



## tcampbell

plantbrain said:


> Sure, but if the hose or intake gets clogged with a leaf etc, or a shrimp etc.......that does little to resolve it.
> 
> Simply keeping a close eye on it.
> 
> For future tanks and designs, I have another idea similar to many of the reef folks.
> 
> For a quick decent add on that can be moved around, they are pretty good though.


So if you where to do it again you would set it up like a reef tank, with an external Herbie or bean style box on the side? I am in the process of setting up a new tank (120x60X55CM) and want to go sump. Just can't figure if better sticking with the ugly box in the tank, a hand on box like yours or just having the box built to the side of the tank and then running a Herbie or bean style setup. suggestions? what size pipes and pump rate would you suggest for a tank this size - you have more experience than me.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> How is the rotala magenta doing? I came to the conclusion that I can't grow the rotala macrandra in my tank. I don't quite know what to think as the rotala magenta became very stunted on the new growth and started to get some hair algae on it so it became compost before it spread to anything else. The rotala macrandra that I have planted twice looked really good for a few weeks then it started to melt from the bottom up. I have been thinking about a plant to put in the place of the rotala and everytime I look at your tank the Patanal stands out so that is the plant that I need to find now.


It did very well.
I've failed a few times with it in the past on other tanks(CO2, patience etc), but it's always around. Ludwigia spaerocarpa is more interesting and better behaved and at 10-15$ per stem............and very easy for me to grow..........so that's hard to argue with. 

Pantanal might do better for you, R macrandra is easier than magenta IME.


----------



## plantbrain

tcampbell said:


> So if you where to do it again you would set it up like a reef tank, with an external Herbie or bean style box on the side? I am in the process of setting up a new tank (120x60X55CM) and want to go sump. Just can't figure if better sticking with the ugly box in the tank, a hand on box like yours or just having the box built to the side of the tank and then running a Herbie or bean style setup. suggestions? what size pipes and pump rate would you suggest for a tank this size - you have more experience than me.


Actual one end of the entire tank would be about 1.5" shorter and some smaller teeth would be used, but then it would go to a shallow bean animal style over flow.

I most cases a slim style like the CPR's are best, the 70 Gal I have is very exposed, but folks hardly even see/notice the overflow/return.

A smaller, but more costly option is the Mame all glass version.
2 of those would work on a tank your size. 500-600$ though.


----------



## Requality

Amazing tank! I was wondering what is your Co2 Set up? How is it defused and the bps?


----------



## @[email protected]

ua hua said:


> How is the rotala magenta doing? I came to the conclusion that I can't grow the rotala macrandra in my tank. I don't quite know what to think as the rotala magenta became very stunted on the new growth and started to get some hair algae on it so it became compost before it spread to anything else. The rotala macrandra that I have planted twice looked really good for a few weeks then it started to melt from the bottom up. I have been thinking about a plant to put in the place of the rotala and everytime I look at your tank the Patanal stands out so that is the plant that I need to find now.


dont give up. i had the same issue. but now in the same setup but with more CO2, i have r. macrandra variegated doing quite nicely, and r. macrandra green doing well too. 
try planting a stem of it right between your foreground and midground. it wont look nice, but thats where the water is least likely to stagnant IME, and thus CO2 should be the most available as fresh CO2 rich water from the diffuser constantly washes over the leaves. if it does fine there, then you know what your issue is.


----------



## ua hua

@[email protected] said:


> dont give up. i had the same issue. but now in the same setup but with more CO2, i have r. macrandra variegated doing quite nicely, and r. macrandra green doing well too.
> try planting a stem of it right between your foreground and midground. it wont look nice, but thats where the water is least likely to stagnant IME, and thus CO2 should be the most available as fresh CO2 rich water from the diffuser constantly washes over the leaves. if it does fine there, then you know what your issue is.


I'm not giving up on it yet. Lets just say I'm moving on. I had my rotala magenta in the midground of the tank and I could see the bubbles blowing all around the plant. It was doing alright for the first 2 months then it started stunting on new growth. The problem is I have been trying a few different methods of co2 diffusion over the past few months and during my experimentation there was some times the co2 wasn't ideal. I'm sure I will try it again sometime. It is a beautiful plant


----------



## Abhi

An amazing tank with an equally amazing thread with great info.


----------



## plantbrain

Requality said:


> Amazing tank! I was wondering what is your Co2 Set up? How is it defused and the bps?


Right into the return pump. BPS? 
Heck if I know.........


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> Right into the return pump. BPS?
> Heck if I know.........


you mean, too fast to count. haha


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> you mean, too fast to count. haha


You are welcomed to try.


----------



## plantbrain

UG is starting to take and fill in. I'll likely Fissidens the wood next to the Ludwigia sphaerocarpa(incorrect:L. pilosa) on the Right side to add some more contrast there. 


















Prior to hacking today:












I likely will fill in the L. tornado in the rear more.
I have some R vietnam in the Right corner that's growing fast and will contrast with the R wallichii. 
I plan on having a pretty good sized bunch/patch of L senegalensis and in about 1-2 more weeks, it'll be a massive sight.
The L. sphaerocarpa(old incorrect pilosa) is a fast grower and does very well, better behaved for some reason that in the past. Easy for me to propagate.
S. belem is a decent plant in the rear. Might try something else other than it however. 

The Rotala "sunset" is now in the 180 Gal and I'll keep it in the back ground. It does very well and can grow and branch all it wants in there.




Need to add some more fish.


----------



## @[email protected]

every image of this tank is something worth drooling over. and its awesome how youre always rearrange and changing things. makes for a very dynamic scape that never looses any of its appeal.


----------



## Revonok

This set up looks fantastic, seriously great job. You should take some super hi-res photos and make posters of this tank XD I'd hang one on my wall! 8]


----------



## plantbrain

Revonok said:


> This set up looks fantastic, seriously great job. You should take some super hi-res photos and make posters of this tank XD I'd hang one on my wall! 8]


Then it ends up being a cover shot in a Chinese mag, had enough images stolen over the years. Big enough to see on line, but not enough to make a mag cover, display with.


----------



## BeachBum2012

plantbrain said:


> Then it ends up being a cover shot in a Chinese mag, had enough images stolen over the years. Big enough to see on line, but not enough to make a mag cover, display with.


Some day, after reading more and more of your journals, I hope to have this problem.

The tank is looking great as usual. An inspiration for sure.


----------



## Tom Barr

BeachBum2012 said:


> Some day, after reading more and more of your journals, I hope to have this problem.
> 
> The tank is looking great as usual. An inspiration for sure.


Yea, it only took me 35 years in the hobby:icon_redf


----------



## freph

Tom Barr said:


> Yea, it only took me 35 years in the hobby:icon_redf


New account or forgot your password? 

Tank looks beautiful as always. Eagerly awaiting that UG to fill in...going to look amazing. Lush green is always good. Any reason why it looks a tad brown?


----------



## jccaclimber

freph said:


> New account or forgot your password?
> 
> Tank looks beautiful as always. Eagerly awaiting that UG to fill in...going to look amazing. Lush green is always good. Any reason why it looks a tad brown?


Stirred up soil (just a guess)?


----------



## Tom Barr

freph said:


> New account or forgot your password?
> 
> Tank looks beautiful as always. Eagerly awaiting that UG to fill in...going to look amazing. Lush green is always good. Any reason why it looks a tad brown?


TPT dumped the cookies it seems, I've used the same PASSWORD HERE FOR THE LAST 8-9 YEARS NOW. Sent message to the Admin, no response. 

If anyone PM'ed, SOL.


----------



## Green_Flash

You live in California or Florida?


----------



## @[email protected]

why dont you get an email sent with a link to reset the password? just click forgot my password or whatever it is.


----------



## Tom Barr

@[email protected] said:


> why dont you get an email sent with a link to reset the password? just click forgot my password or whatever it is.


Cannot do that.

My email was never updated and from a very old earthlink.net account. Been on the site for about 9 years. So it will send updates etc to that account, not this one. Just never updated since I know the password for this site and never had an issue. 

No issues personally, except that if you have a gold member account, you have to buy another one to keep it active.:icon_roll Simply registering with a new name etc, does not address that issue.

I should have updated the email, but it's been years and I've never had an issue. Mistergreen thinks is a corrupted user list, perhaps a spam bot was data mining. Over load on the server etc. We/the Admin may never really know.

But it needs taken care of. Since I cannot rese it since there is no longer any account at earthlink, I'm SOL with that method. They(TPT) can trace the payment I made via paypal to my new email for the old account, even if the email does not match registration, the new email does match paypal.

So even if I have a 256 bit encryption, the corrupted user list would have not mattered in my case

I have some 256 bit stuff. Takes a few decades at least to crunch those passwords, if not longer.


----------



## AaronT

It happened to me too the other day. I had to reset my password.


----------



## Tom Barr

Enough of my whining.































I will likely try some Rotala macrandra or some type similar in this hole in the corner.
In the opposite corner, I'll whack the Rotala wallichii and remove it. Then allow the Rotala " vietnam" to fill in.

The UG is still filling in and rooting well, it tends to grow up, then a bit ratty, needs a little trimming etc, then it starts to make a nice dense rug after wards, check back in 3-4 weeks and it should be nice and dense. 
Many seem to think it's not doing well at this stage, but a little patience rewards well.














Also looking for ideas to replace the Syn belem in the rear with something else, Syn. "Lago grande" would be nice, but tough to find. Perhaps another red plant species. Cannot clash with the pantanal, R vietnam or L tornado, so larger leaves.


----------



## Centromochlus

I'm surprised that you haven't played with _Ludwigia 'atlantis'_ in this tank yet. Might make a nice addition if you can find a good spot for it.


----------



## Tom Barr

AzFishKid said:


> I'm surprised that you haven't played with _Ludwigia 'atlantis'_ in this tank yet. Might make a nice addition if you can find a good spot for it.


It looks like the common Ludwigia weeds here in Ca, L cf peploides.
Not impressed.

I already have a nice red Ludwigia.


----------



## Centromochlus

Tom Barr said:


> It looks like the common Ludwigia weeds here in Ca, L cf peploides.
> Not impressed.
> 
> I already have a nice red Ludwigia.


Whaaaa... are we talking about the same plant? http://www.rareaquaticplants.com/in...omas-kaliebe&catid=77:foto-piante&Itemid=186#
Reminds me of _L. senegalensis_ if anything, though i see you already have bucket loads of that. 
_L. peploides_ doesn't really even grow under water and wouldn't make a good aquarium plant, as i'm sure you know. 
To each his own though.


----------



## Tom Barr

AzFishKid said:


> Whaaaa... are we talking about the same plant? http://www.rareaquaticplants.com/in...omas-kaliebe&catid=77:foto-piante&Itemid=186#
> Reminds me of _L. senegalensis_ if anything, though i see you already have bucket loads of that.
> _L. peploides_ doesn't really even grow under water and wouldn't make a good aquarium plant, as i'm sure you know.
> To each his own though.


Yes, we are talking about the same weed. 
I've seen the plant, just not doing it for me personally.

See how picky I've gotten now? Plant snobbery I tell ya.

What other ideas ya got?


----------



## Centromochlus

Tom Barr said:


> What other ideas ya got?


How about some _Ludwigia alata_ in the background where that gap is? Or my personal favorite, _Ammannia latifolia_? Good luck finding either of those in sizable quantities though... i'm just spewing out random plant names, don't mind me.


----------



## @[email protected]

im not sure if i already asked this, but how do you control your CO2? do you have it on a timer, ph controller, just set a bubble rate and leave it alone, etc?

what about one of the h. corymbosa var? i always loved the look of that plant. the pretty big leaves on it should be a decent contrast to the l. tornado.


----------



## Tom Barr

@[email protected] said:


> im not sure if i already asked this, but how do you control your CO2? do you have it on a timer, ph controller, just set a bubble rate and leave it alone, etc?
> 
> what about one of the h. corymbosa var? i always loved the look of that plant. the pretty big leaves on it should be a decent contrast to the l. tornado.


I've tried as few Alternantheras with larger round leaves, they do not fair well over time, even in the shaded spots, they get too much light and the growth is driven too fast for them to keep up.

In lower light shaded spots, they do very well for me. I'd like a nice large leaf species other than lilies..........that's manageable. Red and can grow well in the locations.

Most are common weeds generally, so finding something special and that does well, has the color also = one tough order.


----------



## antbug

Do you need any r. mac back?

I know I've been pushing it on you, but Proserpinaca palustris will fit this tank nicely and it's just want you want out of a stem. It will contrast well due to it's unique leaf shape, great red/copper colors and it's a well behaved stem. Plus it sells well on this site. 

DO IT, all the cool kids are!


----------



## BeachBum2012

The UG looks insane. I can only hope mine fills in as nice.


----------



## Tom Barr

antbug said:


> Do you need any r. mac back?
> 
> I know I've been pushing it on you, but Proserpinaca palustris will fit this tank nicely and it's just want you want out of a stem. It will contrast well due to it's unique leaf shape, great red/copper colors and it's a well behaved stem. Plus it sells well on this site.
> 
> DO IT, all the cool kids are!


I already had it in here.

I cannot help but think of it as a total weed from living in Florida. 
I'm looking for a specific variety of Red mac, so no, not that one.

I have several coming in and I'll see what works/comes in and go from there. I've already rotated 100 species through this tank.


----------



## sayurasem

How come the UG looks a little yellow-ish?


----------



## Tom Barr

sayurasem said:


> How come the UG looks a little yellow-ish?


I wondered this also.

So I looked at the side view, it's not as yellow, and then looked at the older pics, also not as yellow.

The underside of the leaves reflects yellow better than the top.
When UG is growing in, it tends to grow more vertical, and once it fills in it starts to layer and the grain bends the leaves over, much like "fur", this side is deeper green. I looked at some replantings in the past, and this was the case again. 

There's some dust from replanting other species the last couple fo weeks, I've replanted about 6-8 times and gotten the dust on a lot of the plants lately, fluffing can remove some of it. I could photoshop it, but I refrain from doing much of that, I'd rather just show as is. I could also switch to a more blue/green color bulb in the front. Most of those blue bulbs are in the rear, while reds are in the front, and then whites in the middle. 

Red reflects out the front, white blends, the blue gives the deep blue look of the water in the rear. 

In maybe 2-4 weeks, the UG will thicken up and start laying on top of itself like here:










You'll note, it's sort of yellow here.

Versus this:











Also, no fish or shrimp really, so the leaves are not picked cleaner like prior.

Could be one or all of these things.

I'll be picking up about 120 Amano shrimp next week and maybe some fish.


----------



## !shadow!

Wow that last pic is amazing. It's so clear and the colors just seem to pop out. I've been reading and keeping track of this journal from day one and I can honestly say it's been a nice journey into what has become of it. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## ua hua

Tom Barr said:


>


This picture looks beautiful. I have to say the way the tank looks in this picture is my favorite out of all the beautiful ones you have posted. Everything flows really good from one row to the next. A beautiful "dutch like" planting w/ the one thing in my opinion that dutch scapes are missing and that is some hardscape.


----------



## Tom Barr

ua hua said:


> This picture looks beautiful. I have to say the way the tank looks in this picture is my favorite out of all the beautiful ones you have posted. Everything flows really good from one row to the next. A beautiful "dutch like" planting w/ the one thing in my opinion that dutch scapes are missing and that is some hardscape.


I see no good reason NOT to include beautiful Hardscape into the Dutch style.

A nice hardscape is every bit as nice as nice group of plants.

The next 2-4 weeks, this tank will really bloom nicely once the UG fills in like the pic example above.


----------



## speedie408

Love the new hackjob Tom! Lookin so CLEAN n FRESH!


----------



## Tom Barr

speedie408 said:


> Love the new hackjob Tom! Lookin so CLEAN n FRESH!


Well, once the UG starts to thicken and shorts up, then it will look nice.


This is an old pic when I had it in the front, you can see the thicker look and the way it will look once it fills in fully.

It's the bright green stuff on the left front.


----------



## Tom Barr

I also might need to raise up the Fissidens mossed wood to be able to see and not have the UG engulf the moss.


----------



## Rion

Plants look wonderful as always Tom. Its been nice seeing your scape change over time. Can't wait to see the UG filled in. I agree with your statement about hardscapes and Dutch style, it's commonly what feels to be missing to me.


----------



## Tom Barr

Rion said:


> Plants look wonderful as always Tom. Its been nice seeing your scape change over time. Can't wait to see the UG filled in. I agree with your statement about hardscapes and Dutch style, it's commonly what feels to be missing to me.


I see no good reason not to incorporate hardscaping into the Dutch style personally.

Stylistically, using nice dramatic contrast between nice good sized plant groups is the part of the dutch style I enjoy most. They use a specific no# of species for a specific size of aquarium, try and hide all the equipment and have well organized defined plant groups. If you add too many species and the groups are mish mashed together, this can look very bad.

Too few plant groups, then it looks odd as well.
Aesthetically, there is a balance with plant group size and the size of the tank. This is as much an issue as the Golden Triangle and all of that focal point stuff, but much less talked about.

These attributes I like the most personally(group sizing, contrast, and organized). Some of the Nature style overlaps. 

Nice stone and nice driftwood are often some of the harder items to find.
They can add even more contrast between the groups and maintain the groupings easier.


----------



## Tom Barr

The UG is just starting to lop over and expose the nicer greener side.
I suppose many get too impatient and then rip it up, when all they needed to do is wait another 2-6 weeks for it to thicken up.


----------



## plantbrain

Tom Barr said:


> The UG is just starting to lop over and expose the nicer greener side.
> I suppose many get too impatient and then rip it up, when all they needed to do is wait another 2-6 weeks for it to thicken up.


Fish you never see update: The double Trunk elephant noses are all doing great, the runts have grown up to maybe 4X their original sizes, the Gold nuggets also have doubled in size over the last year.

I'll be adding some school theme fish sometime around/before Xmas.


----------



## plantbrain

UG growth marches on:



















Pantanal is a bit pale..........but should color back up in a couple of weeks etc.
Might be due to poor NH4 in this tank vs the 180(lots more fish load in there and all the shrimp also, hardly any of either in this tank, but that will change next week).


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> This picture looks beautiful. I have to say the way the tank looks in this picture is my favorite out of all the beautiful ones you have posted. Everything flows really good from one row to the next. A beautiful "dutch like" planting w/ the one thing in my opinion that dutch scapes are missing and that is some hardscape.


Compare the dang Pantanal growth on the post.
Stuff is such a weed.

I'll trim and rearrange some tomorrow on WC day. Need to light vac the mum over on the far back right corner as well. 

UG color is back, I sort of combed it down a little once it gets to this stage and starts to really fill in nicely. Some of the oldest leaves are covered in algae, but the new growth will over take and bury it.


----------



## plantbrain

Post trim from yesterday:



Tank is filthy right now but I removed a good deal of mulm from the right rear corner. 

Chores this week:

1.I need to replant the Buce's on the right side, then grow out and replant a few things on the back left corner as well. 
But it's on the way there. After allowing the Pantanal to grow out and very tall, then hacking it back, you can now see the deeper rich color.

2. I need to trim the Tonina some more and the L senegalesis. 

3. The Ech vesuvius needs to fill in a bit. I'll trim and replant the Hygro araguaia and tidy that up more. 

4. I might take the Buce's out of the far side view there and use them to replace the petite Anubias in my 60 p

5. I need to tie some Fissidens moss on the 2nd wood piece on the Far left side. 

6. Find a bright green plant to replace the Sygn "belem" in the rear.

I have several red plant coming in next week to work with and will pick up some shrimp and fish.













Couch view:










FTS, only if you are 2.5 ft tall do you ever see this view............










Side, I'll allow the R vietnam to fill in more here, but am also trying some R mexiciana "gioas".


----------



## whitepapagold

Such a pretty tank and so well maintaned!


----------



## mattschaefer92

This is beautiful! I've heard great things about your aquariums but I've never actually seen a picture. You sell plants and driftwood too, correct?


----------



## sanj

mattschaefer92 said:


> This is beautiful! I've heard great things about your aquariums but I've never actually seen a picture. You sell plants and driftwood too, correct?


Tom's wood is famous all over this planet 

If anyone has Manzanita over here in the UK we can be 99% certain it came from Tom.


----------



## sunyang730

I always wonder, how can you keep moving and planting and still keep the tank so clean? LOL


----------



## plantbrain

sunyang730 said:


> I always wonder, how can you keep moving and planting and still keep the tank so clean? LOL


Lego's.


----------



## @[email protected]

plantbrain said:


> Lego's.


...im confused.


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> ...im confused.


Jokes often fall flat on the internet.


----------



## @[email protected]

ah.
yeah, its difficult to get a lot of jokes without facial expressions and the intonation.


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> ah.
> yeah, its difficult to get a lot of jokes without facial expressions and the intonation.


Several folks had compared the various plant groups and moving them around often like using the lego toy building blocks.


----------



## HunterX

Love your tank Tom. Your work inspires me to do learn more! Thanks for that!


----------



## RynoParsons

its an awesome tank read thru every page of the thread didnt even realize it haha


----------



## plantbrain

I will wait another week to add shrimp and fish.

Too much work today.


----------



## plantbrain

I'll be adding about 100 Amano shrimp Monday, still pondering fish ideas.

Something that will not jump out.


----------



## AaronT

Rasboras do tend to jump IME, but man a nice school of Rasboroides vaterifloris would look nice in there. Also, the jumping tends to be due to being spooked by abrupt light changes, something you shouldn't have an issue with using a dimmer.

I've had them before and they are excellent schoolers. The pictures don't do them justice. In person they're every bit as orange as ember tetras, but bigger.

Or how about Rhadinocentrus ornatus? One of the few rainbowfish that likes acidic water.


----------



## ua hua

How about a large school of Moenkhausia pittieri (Diamond tetra)? They are beautiful when they become full grown and don't know them to be jumpers. I think with a tank like yours with all the different colors these fish would look good with their diamond like scales that can show the whole color spectrum.


----------



## Rion

You could do annual killifish and change out species as they procreate and die. You would have to deal with dead fish (shortest living vertebrate) but switching to different species can lend to your ever changing layout and a male and a few females in a 10 gallon should get you enough eggs to bring that species back in the tank after the required "dry time" needed for the eggs and another species takes it place in this tank till they die and you can rotate through how ever many different species you would like. Now they might be too colorful for your intentions but a rotating fish population came to mind while looking at your tank. I'm also not sure if they are jumpers.


----------



## plantbrain

I love killis, but they jump like mad.

I need something more silvery or bland really, but nice schooling and behavior.

I have color in the 180, but more subdued plants, in this tank, I need the opposite contrast.

I have a few Rosy Tetras, nice fish like Serpae's but deeper red. They blended in so well with the red plants. 

Brass tetras are too artificial for the color scheme.

I also have those in my 70 Gal.

Rummies did well, but munched on plants as they pack hunt for food.


----------



## HybridHerp

I do like the diamond tetra idea.....
alternativly, even though its not small or a schooling fish.......I still want to see an elephant nose in a tank like this lol....then again it might want a cave or something which wouldn't quiet work well, oh well 

I think the very overlooked black skirt tetras are nice as well, just the standard, short fin black ones.


----------



## plantbrain

G. elephas only comes out during the night.

Hard to take pics.


----------



## oldpunk78

What about Phenacogrammus interruptus?


----------



## ua hua

oldpunk78 said:


> What about Phenacogrammus interruptus?


Those are another fish I was thinking about. Very beautiful larger tetra.


----------



## plantbrain

Congo tetra: Too big, eats all shrimp.
Been here, done this several times.

That red congo tetra is pretty, but still a good sized fish, 3-4" etc.

Glass cats are one idea.


----------



## oldpunk78

Chocolate Neons?


----------



## kwheeler91

One of my favorites, red line rasbora. Not too big, not too small. They school tight but arent as active as harlequins or rummynose. nice looking fish but wont pull attention away from the tank via color activity or otherwise. Never had one jump ship either, they're cheap anyway.


----------



## antbug

My vote would be about 200 t-bone tetras.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

200 chilli rasboras.


----------



## bluestems

Rasbora maculatas have a hint of red and bronze that would nicely pick up the red and orange hues of some of the stems. I just recently picked up some myself for a nano tank and they have become one of my favorite fish. Great little personalities, inquisitive and playful. 

Your tank is really beautiful. I love the plant groupings, plus all the color and texture.


----------



## plantbrain

I am leaning to the Rasboras truthfully. 
If there was an African equivalent, I'd pick that.

Then I could add the B sidthimunki back, they did not eat the Fire shrimp enough to hurt the brood production much. Left the Amano's 100% alone.


----------



## oliver77

+1 for rasboras...


----------



## plantbrain

I'll post a new updated post trim pic tonight.


----------



## plantbrain

Close up of the UG. You can see some older original leaves covered in algae buried in there, but all the newer growth is clean. This was without the aid of algae eaters that pick off such algae, eg a horde of Amano shrimp.
Every so often I'll run a high light tank without any significant algae eaters to see. I'll be adding a horde tomorrow, but it's nice to see what happens even without them. 












The Couch view is a nice spot to look at the tank. I replanted some of the UG closest to you. I hacked the pantanal and the Tonina, but really hacked and spread out of the Ludwigia senegalensis. This next cycle will grow and fill in a pretty large space full of that, and I moved the Syn belem to the rear corner.
This pictures illustrates the main piece of wood pretty well.

Someone said like a T rex or a squid. 










Close up of the mucky mulm corner. This is where all the filth will end up.












The right side again: once this grows out 1-2 cycles, I'll be reasonably happy with it.












The left side? Well, I need to try a few more things still.












I'm not entirely happy with the color of the Ludwigia sphaerocarpa. I need a nice shade of red, but this is not it. I can move this plant to the middle rear or the left corner so there's a home for it.
But I'd like a different contrast around that UG to balance the other reds which are stronger. As is, the color combo is very weak on the left side vs the right.

The rear left corn needs some work to make the plants I desire and the color and textures to come together.
I'm not willing to forgo the Buce's and put them elsewhere, they need to stay in this shaded region as understory plants.
I also still want to see them some also.

I will need to find a suitable piece of twisty wood to put back there to elevate them and then plant a bright red larger leaf or green thick bunch plant back in there.
I also have some Mini pellia that needs a home and the darker color against the UG will look good in the corner.
I also need to add some more ADA soil to fluff up the downoi and make replanting easier in a few of the rows.


----------



## marioman72

every time i see this tank it amazes me, such rich colors and variety, really astounding. im excited to see this tank with some fish life, i think it will really liven up the tank and give it another dimension!


----------



## Fat Guy

tank looks very nice and clean. the colors are lovely.


----------



## plantbrain

I hope to have a decent video in a month or less.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

very nice Tom! Looks like you got one of those white anubias' very cool!


----------



## plantbrain

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> very nice Tom! Looks like you got one of those white anubias' very cool!


It's doubled in size so far.


----------



## bluestems

plantbrain said:


> It's doubled in size so far.


I like the spot in front of the dark moss that you chose for it too... it will look spectacular when it fills in the corner. :smile:


----------



## plantbrain

bluestems said:


> I like the spot in front of the dark moss that you chose for it too... it will look spectacular when it fills in the corner. :smile:


The Fissidens is already filled on that piece of wood where I want it.
I'll add more to some of the other branches on the ground, but not a lot more.


----------



## bluestems

plantbrain said:


> The Fissidens is already filled on that piece of wood where I want it.
> I'll add more to some of the other branches on the ground, but not a lot more.


I meant when the white anubias fills in :smile:


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> I'm not entirely happy with the color of the Ludwigia sphaerocarpa. I need a nice shade of red, but this is not it. I can move this plant to the middle rear or the left corner so there's a home for it.
> But I'd like a different contrast around that UG to balance the other reds which are stronger. As is, the color combo is very weak on the left side vs the right


IMO, It's the UG that's the issue not the L. sphaerocarpa. The UG on left side around the L. sphaerocarpa looks out of place. The part that makes a big "U". That section would look better with a different carpet plant or maybe bring the downoi back. I always like the look of the downoi on the left side.

Another idea would be the just pull the UG between the L. sphaerocarpa and the L. red and replace it with a different green plant say hygro purple or similar....... food for thought.


----------



## Betta Maniac

I love this tank! love Love LOVE


----------



## plantbrain

I'm an idiot. 

I was looking at all these different fish and thought, gee, these blue tetras look good. Nice smaller rummy nose sized fish. Perfect swimming patterns and schooling etc. Good color etc.

They bite every other fish's tail in the tank.

Ain't gonna work.

Back to the plan:

Boraras brigittae 
Or the Red phantom tetras. The Red phantoms are nice fish, but sort of hugged the plants a bit too much for my taste, but bothered no one, never jumped out, ate well, awesome color etc.

Water change and net them all out tomorrow and in the 20 Gal garage tanks till I get a chance the return them. PITA.

Did I say I'm an idiot? :icon_redf


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Another idea would be the just pull the UG between the L. sphaerocarpa and the L. red and replace it with a different green plant say hygro purple or similar....... food for thought.


Yes, I use to have the Elatine hydropiper growing there.
Starougyne purple would look nice there. But Starougyne would yield a better color combo/contrast vs Elatine. But Elatine hydropiper is a neat plant


----------



## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> I'm an idiot.
> 
> I was looking at all these different fish and thought, gee, these blue tetras look good. Nice smaller rummy nose sized fish. Perfect swimming patterns and schooling etc. Good color etc.
> 
> They bite every other fish's tail in the tank.
> 
> Ain't gonna work.
> 
> Back to the plan:
> 
> Boraras brigittae
> Or the Red phantom tetras. The Red phantoms are nice fish, but sort of hugged the plants a bit too much for my taste, but bothered no one, never jumped out, ate well, awesome color etc.
> 
> Water change and net them all out tomorrow and in the 20 Gal garage tanks till I get a chance the return them. PITA.
> 
> Did I say I'm an idiot? :icon_redf


Not an idiot Tom, just made a bad choice like us humans do.:icon_wink The blue tetras are the most aggressive tetra I have ever kept. Even in large numbers they are always chasing each other and anything else that gets close to them. Too bad because they do have some beautiful coloration. What about some orange von rio tetras?


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Not an idiot Tom, just made a bad choice like us humans do.:icon_wink The blue tetras are the most aggressive tetra I have ever kept. Even in large numbers they are always chasing each other and anything else that gets close to them. Too bad because they do have some beautiful coloration. What about some orange von rio tetras?


At least they eat well.

Boraras brigittae is what I'll add, they will go well with the B sidthimunkii. Best loach in the business.


----------



## jam

very beautiful. landscape fascinates.


----------



## kwheeler91

Gonna need a whole lot of boraras to fill that sucker up.


----------



## ikuzo

looking forward to see nano size fish in a 120 gallon 
how many of them do you plan to get there?


----------



## Ach1Ll3sH33L

I had to put some s.s mesh in front of my cpr overflow so the boraras didnt fall through, i lost a few that way, even though i never saw them swimming at the top of the tank! Cool small fish though!


----------



## plantbrain

I have SS mesh already cut for all my tanks.


----------



## plantbrain

Side view needs a piece of wood to mount the Bolbitus and Buces on and to create a nice cave for plecos, Elelphant Noses, and Botia. I've been slacking on putting it together.

I'll be adding more and more Fissidens on the divider branches. Trying not to go over board with it though.

I'll be removing the Hydrothrix from all tanks, it's too weedy.
Erio setaceum type 3 is ideal, but temperamental when crowded.
L gigenta well, is too weedy. I can use it as a temp display though.

Still after a broader leaf non repens group red plant for the rear. Might have to go back to the R. macrandra. I have some A cardinalis emergent I could put in there, but it does well for awhile, then craps out. Too much light, even in the darker shaded spots, tank is just too shallow.

The UG continues to fill in and will densen up about another 2x as much again and then shorten itself some and the leaves will flatten out some more.

I still need to add more ADA AS to the Downoi row so it raises that bed up higher so it's easier to view. I could remove the Downoi and then add Erio's there. Then place the Downoi somewhere else, but that's always a PITA. Downoi is easier to reproduce and thus more salable than Erio's.


----------



## Abhi

Amazing colors and update.


----------



## BeachBum2012

Absolutely amazing. Every update leaves me in awe


----------



## sumer

It's my fav tank.
Learned too many things from this thread.


----------



## zergling

Looks amazing Tom! I still think the downoi should go back more towards the front, but I think you already did that before - so there must be a reason you changed its spot..


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> Looks amazing Tom! I still think the downoi should go back more towards the front, but I think you already did that before - so there must be a reason you changed its spot..


It's been a thorn in my side for some time regarding "Where" to place it really.
It's easy to move and repopulate and fill back in.

Too bad it is not a red plant.

If I did remove it, then what would I place in that spot?? A fine leaf bright green plant. Or a wide leaf bright green species etc.
Erios has not fared well due to crowding there. L gigantea is nice, but grows really really fast, not worth much $ wise, same for most others.


----------



## plantbrain

UG is starting to finally fill it and lay flatter. Many people kept pestering me with questions as to why it looked yellow etc.
I stated once it fills in dense, it's top greener leaves will flop over as it becomes a denser and denser mat.

Most never even get their UG this dense. And it's not yet done.
I do not trim it down to get it to stay short like this, it does this on its own. I'll trim errant runners, but that's about it and very very minor.

Other plants are coming along well enough. Be another month or two perhaps before it's in full bloom.
I'll add some more Fissidens to the branches here and there as it grows out also, some of the plants in the Rear Left corner need to grow in more.
I may also tie some Mini pellia to a few branches in the rear.


----------



## BeachBum2012

Amazing. The top down view at the end is awesome.


----------



## Abhi

As usual amazing !


----------



## AUvet14

I love all the colors in this tank.  I can't wait to see it in its prime. Is the water hazy or is it just the angle of the photos or something? Or am i just seeing things? Lol.


----------



## zergling

It looks so good Tom!

Maybe it's just me, but I think the downoi is getting hidden by the ludwigia reds. Have you thought of swapping their locations to show more of the downoi? I know it will soften the red-green-red-green pattern you have as the downoi won't contrast against the UG....


----------



## golfer_d

yea, that's alright I guess


----------



## antbug

Look at all that ludwigia senegalensis. Can you save me a few stems?

Looking good Tom!


----------



## plantbrain

AUvet14 said:


> I love all the colors in this tank.  I can't wait to see it in its prime. Is the water hazy or is it just the angle of the photos or something? Or am i just seeing things? Lol.


It's pearling like mad right. 
Intense light washes out of the colors also.


----------



## plantbrain

zergling said:


> It looks so good Tom!
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I think the downoi is getting hidden by the ludwigia reds. Have you thought of swapping their locations to show more of the downoi? I know it will soften the red-green-red-green pattern you have as the downoi won't contrast against the UG....


Depends on the day of the trim for the Red Ludwigia.
I like Downoi and it's a good plant, requires little work and sells well.
Not too many other good locations, it would be nice on the side, the Right where I had it last.

And then leave the UG all over the front and not have it do a wrap on the left side also. 

Then I have to find a nice light green replacement plant for that spot:icon_eek:

I have a few ideas, but none of them particularly good. 
Most grow either too slow, or way too fast.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Look at all that ludwigia senegalensis. Can you save me a few stems?
> 
> Looking good Tom!


Sure.

That plant had me a little worried that it would not do well or make a nice group, but the coloration and the topping and replanting sure made it one of my favorite plants, it replaces R. macrandra which grew pretty fast.

I have some of the A. roseafolia true deep red form outside(emergent, it's green) in pots, but I recently brought a few stems in and grew it in my 180 where it has reddened up very nicely, that's how they grow this commercially.

I might bring that back and see if it'll do well in that rear left corn in the shade of the wood.

Or/and/leave some in the 180.


----------



## plantbrain

I think I will cut out that UG from the far left side wrap, and add the Downoi there. There is actually more space there vs the row where it is at now. The contrast will allow me to use some different species around it.

But then I need to figure out what to replace the downoi with.
I have some nice L aquatica, huge fine needle plant. Very fast growing through.
Erios will have the same issues as Downoi . Erio setacuem does not like this location due to crowding. Hydrothrix is a bit of a weedy plant also. 

I have the Mini Myrio, that might work, but I'd like a larger leaf plant etc. Not a typical species, etc.

Another thing is to lay a good size branch there with Mini Pellia covering the entire row/space.
Raise it up a little so it about where the Red Ludwigia is now. Would provide caves for fish under that. 

Still trying to think of a good spot for Buce's I have.
May end up selling them or switching them to another tank.


----------



## antbug

Talking about the spot where the downoi currently is..... what about an anubias sp.? Say golden or another sp.? It would be unlike any other leaf shape in this tank (minus the little white). I see your thinking about a fine needle plant but wouldn't that contrast with the ludwigia tornado right behind it? 

Anyother idea is true Rotala Indica (ammannia bonsai) Nice green plant with pretty pink highlights?

One last thought would be Rotala pearl for that spot. Thinking out loud now.....


----------



## plantbrain

Those are a PITA to trim for this section though.

The Hydrothrix would contrast well with the tornado.

I brought the tornado up to that spot in the past once, it was nice there, but it's more a background plant really.


----------



## jnaz

Blyxa Japonica perhaps? Might be a smooth transition of color from red (L. repens hybrid) to the orange red (pantanal?). Should go green orange under your light. Too common of a plant?


----------



## plantbrain

jnaz said:


> Blyxa Japonica perhaps? Might be a smooth transition of color from red (L. repens hybrid) to the orange red (pantanal?). Should go green orange under your light. Too common of a plant?


I got a ton in the 180.

Same with S. repens.


----------



## Anhhung

BlueJack said:


> Tank's lookin great! What kind of plant is that growing above the water line, on the driftwood?
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by plantbrain
> 
> IMAGE#1





_Posted from Plantedtank.net App for Android_


----------



## Conofeis

I'm just freaking out with this tank. Congrats from Spain mate!


----------



## plantbrain

I think I will revert back to this grouping for the left side with downoi in front of the Ludwigia sphaerocarpa(the bare spot).
Then the Rotala sunset back in that spot. I may try a few other species before putting the sunset back there though. 
That copper M. tuberculatum will be removed obviously


----------



## Dempsey

Looking great, Tom!

I am finally back home and getting things ready to start my 75 back up!!

How many 9 liter bags of ADA AS do you think I will need for my 75?


----------



## plantbrain

Dempsey said:


> Looking great, Tom!
> 
> I am finally back home and getting things ready to start my 75 back up!!
> 
> How many 9 liter bags of ADA AS do you think I will need for my 75?


Good to see you back.

4-5 to be safe.


----------



## plantbrain

Expanded the Fissidens on the wood dividers that keep the groups/rows in their shapes. 

This was actually the original plan.

I would like to do this with Mini Pellia as well for the rear corners. 

I have some Alteranthera roseifolia(this is super red) I took out and then tried to grow emergent to see if it would grow faster(yes, it does). It turns green, but when you place it back in water, it narrows up and turns a wonderful blood red color. It did well in the rear shaded section. The normal A. reineckii does well in the shaded sections. But I like this one:icon_roll


----------



## HybridHerp

plantbrain said:


> Expanded the Fissidens on the wood dividers that keep the groups/rows in their shapes.
> 
> This was actually the original plan.
> 
> I would like to do this with Mini Pellia as well for the rear corners.
> 
> I have some Alteranthera roseifolia(this is super red) I took out and then tried to grow emergent to see if it would grow faster(yes, it does). It turns green, but when you place it back in water, it narrows up and turns a wonderful blood red color. It did well in the rear shaded section. The normal A. reineckii does well in the shaded sections. But I like this one:icon_roll


Any pics of this blood red plant?


----------



## sumer

Do you have some close-up shots of downoi !


----------



## plantbrain

HybridHerp said:


> Any pics of this blood red plant?


Plant behind the main piece of wood in the above photo.


----------



## keithy

plantbrain said:


> I have some Alteranthera roseifolia(this is super red) I took out and then tried to grow emergent to see if it would grow faster(yes, it does). It turns green, but when you place it back in water, it narrows up and turns a wonderful blood red color. It did well in the rear shaded section. The normal A. reineckii does well in the shaded sections. But I like this one:icon_roll


Tom, 
All I can say is that you have the perfect green thumb. I cannot seem to get A. Reineckii to grow vertically, not to mention throw out the blood red color you have there. I can just watch with admiration how you grow plants with ease. Hopefully I will uncover the 'secret' to this plant soon before it disappear from my tank :smile:.


----------



## plantbrain

keithy said:


> Tom,
> All I can say is that you have the perfect green thumb. I cannot seem to get A. Reineckii to grow vertically, not to mention throw out the blood red color you have there. I can just watch with admiration how you grow plants with ease. Hopefully I will uncover the 'secret' to this plant soon before it disappear from my tank :smile:.


Well, I cannot grow it anywhere I like in any tank, not by a long shot.

It has never done well for me under very high light. The best? MH's and T5's in the shaded regions. I'd like to use it like L. pantanal, but it does not do well under high light really. T8's it did great in lower lighted tanks. It is one of the easier lower light Red plants.

The roseafolia type grows more vertical and has a better color than the A. reineckii types sold.


----------



## acropora1981

Sweet mother that's a beauty!

Probably been asked, but what is the short green foreground plant?
Edit: never mind, UG.
Edit: just realized its Tom Barr's thread. Now I understand.


----------



## plantbrain

I plan on removing some of the UG where the downoi are now and expanding this to break the continuous line of UG in the front.
I want a wide path that tends to narrow some towards the back of the Downoi. I've not tried the Red macrandra in the left side before.
We will see how it does in the higher current.





The Ludwigia tornado looks nice from above and contrast well once it's dense enough.













Top view. You can see the new Rotala macrandra I added in the lower left side, very mauve colored, this is typical in very high light tanks. it's a freaky color.
Most seek/expect a more red blood or red cherry color generally.












Side view, shows some recently UG replanting.












Shows a close up on the UG and some other species.











FTS:


----------



## HybridHerp

do you keep any fish in this tank? Every time I see this tank, feel like an electric blue fish would look AMAZING (in terms of color and all that). I really hope I can one day replicate your range of colors and brightness in my own tank.


----------



## @[email protected]

man i wish my r. macrandra would look like that.


----------



## plantbrain

HybridHerp said:


> do you keep any fish in this tank? Every time I see this tank, feel like an electric blue fish would look AMAZING (in terms of color and all that). I really hope I can one day replicate your range of colors and brightness in my own tank.


There's actually a lot of fish, but they do not come out for the pictures:thumbsup:

I am still waiting for some fish I ordered. 

I tried blue fish, NG rainbows, they blended in too much. 
Red fish tend to look good/better really. I also had blue tetras, but they are mean.

I've tried quite a few, the rummy nose looked the best, but trash the UG and shrimp.


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> man i wish my r. macrandra would look like that.


Just the long tops pruned way down.

It'll look like my older Mac in the prior pics, but I will trim it down more and make the row wider some, deflect with some wood perhaps.

We will see.

I will narrow the upper part and add downoi in a wider path in the front, narrowing towards the rear.
Likely will mow some of the UG on the Right side and replace with Elatine once again.
I did not think the UG would do well on that side, but it really has.


----------



## theblondskeleton

Tom, I love how every time I poke in here you have something new going on. Just a beautiful tank. Thanks for sharing with us!


----------



## The Dude

Absolutely stunning. You have tremendous talent.


----------



## HybridHerp

plantbrain said:


> There's actually a lot of fish, but they do not come out for the pictures:thumbsup:
> 
> I am still waiting for some fish I ordered.
> 
> I tried blue fish, NG rainbows, they blended in too much.
> Red fish tend to look good/better really. I also had blue tetras, but they are mean.
> 
> I've tried quite a few, the rummy nose looked the best, but trash the UG and shrimp.


Wasn't expecting any fish to bug the UG. What fish are you currently keeping in there, and I guess what shrimp as well? But the blue fish blended in with green and red? That's interesting actually.


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, the blue fish did not contrast well.

Silver is actually a pretty good color mix in this bright coloration of plants.

Sort of an opposite impact effect, the bland reflection colors off set the bright color.


----------



## HybridHerp

plantbrain said:


> Yes, the blue fish did not contrast well.
> 
> Silver is actually a pretty good color mix in this bright coloration of plants.
> 
> Sort of an opposite impact effect, the bland reflection colors off set the bright color.


Hrmmm, silver eh? That would work if I could get some larger silver tetras into my tank in a way that wouldn't break the bank.


----------



## AdamF

Wow dude - Ok, thats a new bench mark for me, and my perspective on what you can do with a planted tank.

Just getting that UG to behave itself in such a manicured fashion, is, in itself, a reflection of the time you inject into this beauty! Let a,one the rest.

Respect, all the way from Australia !!!


----------



## plantbrain

I'm mowing some of the UG today.


----------



## plantbrain

The UG has piled up and grown more aggressively than in the past. As such, it's not really a foreground plant for a long time frame nor is easy to keep that way in this tank.

I'll keep the bigger pile in the front middle section and then return to more group style with multiple species rather than a single foreground type.

It was well worth a try though with the UG. the problem side has always been the Left. I have Rotala macrandra there now, it'll grows very nice there, but it's a high current region, so it'll be all over the place. I'll move it to the rear behind the main tree trunk.

Some options for the last red row: Rotala butterfly, there's some at the end of the row , about 4 stems. Not sure if it'll do favorably in the row however. 
Rotala sunset, I have some growing in another tank, problem: it does not like to be transplanted often which is required by this tank and the row in question. I can do it, but it's more work than it should be. Return the Lud sphaerocarpa back to that location. It does okay but is a pale red, I wanted something more intense. L peruensis does well,m but is very common etc and has the same color as the L. red next to it. I have L arcuata, but it's too spindly. L inclinata was okay, but gets ratty and grows too fast. 

The search for the plant that goes there continues.









Some changes are afoot:


----------



## jonathan

So beautiful. Amazing contrasting colors. I think its definitely hard to replace the UG there because that spot looks like it demands small leaves. Choices are a lot smaller. I personally prefer white anubias in that spot because you could make a very dense population with that plant. Erio seems more limiting and it would be less striking next to that long leaf plant that already shows so much substrate. Just my very humble opinion. 

I really want to try UG. I'm almost but not quite setup for it yet. Almost ...


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, I agree with the White anubias, that would be preferred.


----------



## plantbrain

I am removing the UG from both ends and am going to keep the large mound in the middle. 

I'll sell off the UG, so if you are after it, now would be the time to ask.


----------



## HybridHerp

plantbrain said:


> I am removing the UG from both ends and am going to keep the large mound in the middle.
> 
> I'll sell off the UG, so if you are after it, now would be the time to ask.


After looking at your UG, I get the feeling it would be a bit overwhelming in a 10 gallon right? Although, since it seems to grow so well for you, it seems like an option for my 75.

Would you say that UG is better suited for larger tanks or smaller tanks where it is the predominant plant?


----------



## plantbrain

HybridHerp said:


> After looking at your UG, I get the feeling it would be a bit overwhelming in a 10 gallon right? Although, since it seems to grow so well for you, it seems like an option for my 75.
> 
> Would you say that UG is better suited for larger tanks or smaller tanks where it is the predominant plant?


I grew it as a single monoculture in a 2 gallon tank.
Got hair algae since maintaining good CO2 was a PITA for such a small tank.

It works well depending on how you use it, and how you trim/if you want to sell, cuttings etc.


----------



## plantbrain

Pulled out and up the UG, will replant as labeled above.

Just one section.

Placed some L arcurata in the spot where R. macrandra was, moved the R macrandra to the rear spot.

Need to get some ET from Antbug.

Then the Anubias whites and the Elatine hydropiper.


----------



## Dempsey

As always, It still looks awesome! I will be getting in touch with you soon for some plants, Tom. As you know, I am home and the tank in running!!


----------



## antbug

Should I assume you are ready for some ET now? Let me know and I'll cut out a nice patch for you and drop it by.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

Tom, let me know when you have that arcuata for sale, no one seems to have such a common plant anywhere I look.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Should I assume you are ready for some ET now? Let me know and I'll cut out a nice patch for you and drop it by.


Juan has some he's going to drop off. I can use some, but I'll let you know if Jan's does not work etc. All I need is a small amount, 2 weeks later............so I think he's got it covered.


----------



## plantbrain

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> Tom, let me know when you have that arcuata for sale, no one seems to have such a common plant anywhere I look.


I like the plant, and will likely do something with it.
In 1-2 weeks, I can give you a small amount.


----------



## plantbrain

Dempsey said:


> As always, It still looks awesome! I will be getting in touch with you soon for some plants, Tom. As you know, I am home and the tank in running!!


Just get everything jamming good.

Take the time to rethink and add filtration etc to it, good hardscape etc. Such tear downs and re sets are always good IME.


----------



## jonathan

Hey tom, does all of your flow come from your filtration output ? Its hard to tell for sure. Its a slow process, but I'm trying to test the best flow configuration for my tank. Your tank is much wider, more square. Does that pose any kind of extra challenge ?


----------



## plantbrain

jonathan said:


> Hey tom, does all of your flow come from your filtration output ? Its hard to tell for sure. Its a slow process, but I'm trying to test the best flow configuration for my tank. Your tank is much wider, more square. Does that pose any kind of extra challenge ?


Yes, I suppose, mostly due to pruning so the rows of weeds do not the flow across the top. Takes some fiddling etc.


----------



## chris.rivera3

Hey Tom! 

You've grown a lot of UG and downoi - from your experience, do you think UG and downoi BOTH need to be planted where there is high flow and high light?? How do they grow if placed in areas of the tank with less water flow and lower light (via floaters)? Do they both need high flow/high light or is one plant more demanding than the other?


----------



## plantbrain

Got the white Anubias in, they are in excellent shape.

Hacked the UG out and put into one section(where the downoi is in the above pic).
Tied some Mini Pellia to a couple of small pieces of wood to make dividers.

Moved the Downoi over back to the far Left section.

Moved the R macrandra back behind the main trunk, doing well back there.
Placed ther Ludwigia acruata between the Mimi Myrio and the downoi.

The L. sphaerocarpa is back where the R macrandra is.

I'll be getting some Elatine hydropiper sometime coming up in the next 2 weeks.
It will go in the middle front area.

Once the Rotala sunset grows out more, I might add that back to this tank somewhere. It was nice in the front where the Rotala macrandra is in the above pic.


----------



## plantbrain

chris.rivera3 said:


> Hey Tom!
> 
> You've grown a lot of UG and downoi - from your experience, do you think UG and downoi BOTH need to be planted where there is high flow and high light?? How do they grow if placed in areas of the tank with less water flow and lower light (via floaters)? Do they both need high flow/high light or is one plant more demanding than the other?


Well, they grow faster with more light, but they can be grown fine with less current and light than I have certainly.

This is a high light, high growth rate garden, so it requires more work and care over time. Slower growing tanks certainly work well.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

I wanna now how you get so much CO2 in your tanks with out killing your fish...


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> I wanna now how you get so much CO2 in your tanks with out killing your fish...


I watch and make sure. 

I also have good current, wet/dry filters etc.
The light intensity is programmable, so I match the CO2 and the light as they both come on and shut off.


----------



## plantbrain

This is right after trim and water change in the morning.


----------



## UDGags

Really like the additional white anub.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


----------



## h4n

Very nice field of anubais white!
That must of been expensive!

-Sent from my Samsung Note, a "Phablet"


----------



## antbug

Holy snow white! That looks amazing. 

I know I've said it before, but I love the downoi in that spot. I think this the best your tank has looked. I'd love to see it in person. Need anyone ET? Mine is getting think.


----------



## @[email protected]

looking forward to seeing e. hydropiper in there. it should look really great.

question about the anubias white - does it need more light than a regular anubias to stay white like that? say if i were to put it in a 10 gal with the standard 15w light t8 hood, would it loose some/most of the white?


----------



## sunyang730

Hi Tom have a question for you. I see that you have AS? If so, how you handle the dusty after moving the plants? And how you clean off the plant from dust? Is there a trick? Thanks.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Holy snow white! That looks amazing.
> 
> I know I've said it before, but I love the downoi in that spot. I think this the best your tank has looked. I'd love to see it in person. Need anyone ET? Mine is getting think.


Well, I explored a few things with the UG and then back to a more traditional grouping for Dutch style.

The Anubias is nice due to strong contrast and it is one of the few larger leaf plants.

The L. aquatica is a nice large stem plant. I replaced the Hydrothrix and the Erio in that location. While an easy fast growing stem, common somewhat, it fits nicely and can be pruned aggressively, has the right shade of green. There's a dutch tank I admire above most others that uses this plant very nicely. 

ET took a week to acclimate, it was mushy, I also have someone outside, it'd done okay even with subfreezing temps. It's actually done better in the winter than the summer out there.

I also have some nice Rotala butter fly in the 180 that's doing well.
I now have a lot of it. Trying to figure out where it would be added and look good. Might just keep it in the 180 along with some of the other species that did not handle the current/placement and hacking routine.

I thought I got rid of the Lace plant in the 180, nope, they keep popping up.
I'm growing out some of the Ludwigia sphaerocarpa for some folks. The L peruensis I got and just saves a few, I'll trade or give that away I suppose.
Want any? Free to you.


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> looking forward to seeing e. hydropiper in there. it should look really great.
> 
> question about the anubias white - does it need more light than a regular anubias to stay white like that? say if i were to put it in a 10 gal with the standard 15w light t8 hood, would it loose some/most of the white?


I had some of the 1st Abubias that looked like this years ago, maybe 10-12? 
Lots of people bugged me for some for a long time thereafter. 

I treat them like any other plant, nothing special really, they grow slower due to less chlorophyll in the leaves, so perhaps higher light helps with growth rates. But many people have algae issues with high light. It's in the front corner where you can see them and where the light is lower, current is low there as well.

I'm not sure in answer to your question.


----------



## plantbrain

sunyang730 said:


> Hi Tom have a question for you. I see that you have AS? If so, how you handle the dusty after moving the plants? And how you clean off the plant from dust? Is there a trick? Thanks.


Light surface vacuuming can be done, do the trim 1st, then the large massive water change right away afterwards. I move plants around, but I also do water changes when I do.

The tank is a bit hazy at times in many pics for that reason.


----------



## plantbrain

Hopefully the Anubias will fatten up over the next 2-3 months. This will make a nice group then:










I am waiting for the Elatine hydropiper, the ET will fill in fast enough in 2-3 weeks or so. The UG looks yellow again, but will fill in and be that nice mound like grass in a few weeks also. Downoi is growing well and adapted to the new location. 

Overall, it's getting close but I have 3-4 things I would like to do even after the plants fill in(as if I'll stay put and not change something eh?) 

1. I do not like the color of the L sphaerocarpa, it's a nice plant, I can grow the snot out of it. But that color, I need a better shade of red. I likely will go back to Rotala sunset.

Or keep search for something.

2. I'd like to replace the Syg belem with Syg "Lago Grande". 

3. I may add more mini pellia on the side shot below to fill that space in under the wood. A nice larger bunch on a few smaller branches will make that a solid mat. 

If I replace the L sphaerocrapa, then I'll need to find a home for it, but it can do well in the 180 gal and looks good in there. 

Overall, I'm getting happier with the tank, the background I'm most pleased with as far as the plants, the R. macrandra will fill in and I'll let it form a canopy. It'll get crazy pink red then and not bother the adjacent plants much. 

Once the foreground is in place and grows in a bit, things will look better. Some spots are farm spots right now like where the EH will go.

Maintaining the other spots is fairly straight forward from here though. Just need to work on the foreground a bit and that last red row on the left, fill the mini pellia in and maybe switch the Syg with Lago grandre if I can get some people who have it, but barely grow it, to sell me a stem or two.


----------



## laxaj

That white Anubias looks great!


----------



## plantbrain

laxaj said:


> That white Anubias looks great!


Ain't cheap.


----------



## Acen

Tom what are your params in this tank? can you list your GH, KH Temp etc.. My favorites plant come out of that tank and i wanna be sure im in a good range.


----------



## HybridHerp

Would you say that the white anubias grows to the same size as petite, or is it a little larger?
Its a plant I would love to have one day, but I can't justify the price to myself. Its even more expensive than buce's are now.


----------



## plantbrain

Acen said:


> Tom what are your params in this tank? can you list your GH, KH Temp etc.. My favorites plant come out of that tank and i wanna be sure im in a good range.


Gh is about 50ppm, KH dropped down, about 20ppm right now. Temp is 80F.


----------



## plantbrain

HybridHerp said:


> Would you say that the white anubias grows to the same size as petite, or is it a little larger?
> Its a plant I would love to have one day, but I can't justify the price to myself. Its even more expensive than buce's are now.


It'll likely remain high priced. You cannot go out and steal them from creek beds and then sell on the internet if you live in South East Asia. Many collectors have with the Buce's unfortunately instead of cultivating them and then selling them. 

They have no choice with this plant however.
It's like the petite. 

I think this plant would be a good candidate for TC however given the low chl content of the leaves, the media in TC can be modified to help the plant grow better if it lacks Chl a.


----------



## CL

Love the white anubias. Makes you wonder how something so heavily variegated could grow at all with so little chlorophyll or other pigments!

Gives a great contrast to the other plants as well- perfect for dutch tanks.


----------



## zzrguy

Filling in nicely


----------



## plantbrain

CL said:


> Love the white anubias. Makes you wonder how something so heavily variegated could grow at all with so little chlorophyll or other pigments!
> 
> Gives a great contrast to the other plants as well- perfect for dutch tanks.


I typically am no fan of variegated plants, but this one is more solid white on the newer leaves.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

what size cpr setup did u go with for this tank,
what's ur throughput?
im setting up the 75 gallon and i can't seem to get it quite.. its driving me up the wall.
i've cheated by taping the top 4 rings of the strainer which got it quite but i only want that to be a temporary fix


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> what size cpr setup did u go with for this tank,
> what's ur throughput?
> im setting up the 75 gallon and i can't seem to get it quite.. its driving me up the wall.
> i've cheated by taping the top 4 rings of the strainer which got it quite but i only want that to be a temporary fix


102 I think, it has the fat 1" drain, I should have gotten the dual pipes, then done the bean animal conversion, I still can, but I have to DIY, and I'm lazy for the next 3 months.

Bigger is better when it comes to prefilters, and more pipes, the better, Bean animal 100% of the way= zero noise and the lowest cO2 lost possible for overflows.

Note, you can modify on the sides of the prefilter if there's not enough space and you can use 1/2" or 3/8' or 1/4" holes for overflows there, you will need to look for those small bulkheads, but they do make them.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Hmm well my issue lies in, i have the cs500 setup (300 gph) on my 29. At 200 or 300 gph its silent, no adjusting it uses 3/4 bulkhead and strainer with 1 inch vinyl tubing.
The 75 has the cs900 600 gph version. 1 inch bulkhead with 1 inch tubing, i was assuming less adapters would be silent.
What im noticing this morning is that the silencing tube is doing no good. The strainer is still sucking air down., its actually quieter if i remove the strainer and leave an open hole..
Ive adjusted flow rates and i either get too much and the overflow box just splashes everywhere, and my tank is a typhoon.. or too little and i get this horrible sound

Should i have stepped up to 1/1/4 inch tubing?


----------



## antbug

*120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style with lots of color instead*

I have the cs900 on a 65g and converted my overflow to a durso standpipe. If you google it you will find lots of info. Not 100% silent, but my co2 bubbles getting chopped up make more noise. I can take a pic if needed.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

That might be helpful..
As far as splash noise, i dont mind the water trickle sound. I just dont like the air gurggling effect.


----------



## jccaclimber

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Hmm well my issue lies in, i have the cs500 setup (300 gph) on my 29. At 200 or 300 gph its silent, no adjusting it uses 3/4 bulkhead and strainer with 1 inch vinyl tubing.
> The 75 has the cs900 600 gph version. 1 inch bulkhead with 1 inch tubing, i was assuming less adapters would be silent.
> What im noticing this morning is that the silencing tube is doing no good. The strainer is still sucking air down., its actually quieter if i remove the strainer and leave an open hole..
> Ive adjusted flow rates and i either get too much and the overflow box just splashes everywhere, and my tank is a typhoon.. or too little and i get this horrible sound
> 
> Should i have stepped up to 1/1/4 inch tubing?


Different overflow on my tank, but it sounds like your restricting valve isn't just right. One of these days I'll switch over to an overflow with more space/holes so I can bean-animal as well.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

i dont have a restricting valve. its an open drain pipe


----------



## antbug

*120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style with lots of color instead*



HD Blazingwolf said:


> That might be helpful..
> As far as splash noise, i dont mind the water trickle sound. I just dont like the air gurggling effect.


No air gurgling at all with the durso standpipe. It will only cost you a few dollars to build and a little of your time.


----------



## Rush3737

Dude, the different colors look AWESOME! I'll definitely be attempting to achieve some nice color separation in my tank, as I think the all green ones do get to be a tad monotonous.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, you can do a lot with Green, see ADA's tank's for example.

It just wondered why not use colors more for contrast rather than some pre defined rule.

You will never break into new areas without going against the rules. 
Too much red can be a bad thing, but you can explore that and why that is over time, and remove and try a new plant, or allow one to fill in more of an area etc.

This way you learn from your own experiences and still maintain some sense of design and approach. Most do not have 20-30 tanks and managing 10-20 ADA like scapes would be impractical for most hobbyists.

So we can do repeated changes on 1-2 or 3, maybe 4-5 tanks etc, vs trying to do everything all in one block. 

Takes longer, but it's more manageable.

Most designs tend to use red are a focal point, but there's a lot of scapes with a good deal of reds. Much more than my tank here.


----------



## plantbrain

Rotala sunset has not had any issues since I moved it without trimming.
I'll leave it in the 180 gal tank for awhile before returning it to the 120 gallon.
The new Red Rotala narrow leaf, is doing well, so I might use it in that problem left side spot.

Looks a bit like Rotala mini butterfly.

Elatine hydropiper is coming in and I have some plans finally for that front spot for it. I'll also be redoing the 70 Gal manzy burl tank with that plant and remove the Belem grass. Considering slowly switching to Mini pellia vs the Fissidens, but will likely keep some Fissidens on the right side only.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## edicied

*120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style with lots of color instead*



plantbrain said:


>


That looks fantastic!



from my iP 5 via Tapa.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

I haven't been following as religiously as i should master. forgive me.
what is the rediculously bright green fluffy plant right dab in the middle there?
i like its contrast to everything else


----------



## hisxlency

gorgeous tank, can I ask what substrate is being used in your setup?


----------



## sjb1987

HD Blazingwolf said:


> I haven't been following as religiously as i should master. forgive me.
> what is the rediculously bright green fluffy plant right dab in the middle there?
> i like its contrast to everything else



Limnophilia aquatica


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> I haven't been following as religiously as i should master. forgive me.
> what is the rediculously bright green fluffy plant right dab in the middle there?
> i like its contrast to everything else


I'd originally sot to use that, but tried the Erio setaceum type 3, it just did not do as well as this weed. the Erio does not like crowding, I have it doing great in my 180, where it gets few trims, plenty of room and such. The tanks both have the same light, bulbs, sediment, dosing, water changes, fish loading and feeding etc, CO2 is a bit different, but the plant did well when it was not crowded in the 120, then as it filled in, not so hot. 

It also does not do well in the 180 when it's crowded also.

The Limnophila gigeatea is a nice large dramatic weed, can handle aggressive pruning. Takes about 2 minutes a week to trim it, and yes, it needs trimmed weekly. Puts on 2-4" a week easily. 

Nice contrast plant.


----------



## plantbrain

hisxlency said:


> gorgeous tank, can I ask what substrate is being used in your setup?


ADA Aqua soil, pretty much all my tanks have just that, nothing else.


----------



## plantbrain

sjb1987 said:


> Limnophilia aquatica


Till I flower it, I cannot be sure either way, might be.


----------



## plantbrain

I did a good sized trim last night. The Tonina, the L. senegalensis got a good much needed whack.

I hope to get the Elatine hydropiper this coming week.
Then the front middle section will get a nice planting of that.

I also will be after a nice bright green plant for the rear corner, got tired of S. belem, I put the Hydrothrix back there, but it does not have the brighter color contrast I prefer.


----------



## plantbrain

Will update again later this week after replanting a few things.


----------



## sunyang730

I see some white anubias there


----------



## Jsquared

plantbrain said:


>


anyone one know the name of what the plant is under, "not sure"?


----------



## synaethetic

Tom this tank is really amazing. It seems to cross the boundary from weekend hobby into fine art, considering that the majority of your efforts go into the color theory of combining complimentary plants. A point of harmony will be reached I am sure, for all the combinations you have assembled thus far have looked great. 

Nice job!


----------



## Green_Flash

Tom, what bulb combo are you using?


----------



## mrkookm

*120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style with lots of color instead*



Green_Flash said:


> Tom, what bulb combo are you using?


Good question.




from my iP 5 via Tapa.


----------



## Ach1Ll3sH33L

I noticed when you sold off the U.G you simply replanted the plugs, Im trying to get a good ground cover of it in my tank, can i trim it down to the substrate to encourage new growth, or is it better to replant in plugs and let spread out?
Thanks for your time

nevermind, you answered this in another thread
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=168992&page=36


----------



## chris.rivera3

After you update and replant can you label/identify all the plants in the picture?? similar to what you did in the above posts?



plantbrain said:


> Will update again later this week after replanting a few things.


----------



## plantbrain

Jsquared said:


> anyone one know the name of what the plant is under, "not sure"?


R. macrandra red, this was grown outside though.
Inside it looks like the red mac I had a few months back in this thread.


----------



## plantbrain

synaethetic said:


> Tom this tank is really amazing. It seems to cross the boundary from weekend hobby into fine art, considering that the majority of your efforts go into the color theory of combining complimentary plants. A point of harmony will be reached I am sure, for all the combinations you have assembled thus far have looked great.
> 
> Nice job!


Interesting take, not that I put that type of thought into it, truth be told


----------



## plantbrain

chris.rivera3 said:


> After you update and replant can you label/identify all the plants in the picture?? similar to what you did in the above posts?


In a couple, of days, I finally got my E hydropiper back.


----------



## plantbrain

I'm one plant away from coming pretty close to my generalized goal.
Rotala sunset comes pretty close, nice color and handles the current well.

It'll be a few weeks till this new planting grows in.
The UG is just starting to take after a replanting, seems to take a pretty good beating in between replantings, you have to keep pushing it back in and making sure it does not pull up. If you are not on top of that, then it can get pretty sparse.
Same for the Elatine hydropiper, but once it's roots sink in, it's pretty good.

I removed some of the Anubias white to grow emergent for $ and for stock. I can grow that and Buce's very easily in emergent culture and I can always restock the tank if I decide to add more. I do not like moving them around much in this tank. 
This tank gets moved around enough as it is.

I may use those for an emergent non CO2 tank I'll do with the 60p ADA tank. It's empty and I'll replant and scape that sometime in April.

Water is cloudy because I just planted the EH and the ET, added some Mini pellia in place of Fissidens, which has been pretty weedy in this tank, I'll keep one branch on the far right side of Fissidens and try to use the mini pellia for the wood dividers mostly.
I could use a temporary plant in the far left that's red, say R macrandra etc, but the current is a bit too high and the plants need trimmed low in that spot.
I know what I'm looking for, just cannot find the right plant and color just yet. 

I can use Rotala sunset, but I'll need more in another tank to pick from due to the repeated trimming and die back trait is has from aggressive pruning.
If you leave it alone, it'll do quite well, but that's not this tank frankly

I'd thought about doing the downoi like I let the UG over take the foreground entirely, but.........maybe later. Maybe not at all.
I'll redo the 70 Gal hairgrass tank tomorrow with the Elatine hydropiper I have left over.


----------



## Green_Flash

Tom, what bulb combo are you using?


----------



## hedge_fund

Green_Flash said:


> Tom, what bulb combo are you using?


It should be listed in this article that I found accidentally via google. 

http://plantedspace.com/space/aquatic/item/32-tom-barrs-120g-dutch-aquarium


----------



## plantbrain

Removed the L sphaerocarpa, had extra R macrandra, but it'll be waving all over in this spot pretty bad.


----------



## sjb1987

What's the width from tip to tip on the mystery plant next to the l. Sp red?


----------



## GDominy

How are you finding using an aqualifter as your vacuum pump with the CPR? I used to run a CPR 100 with an aqualifter on my reef tank and I was constantly having problems with the diaphragms failing and my CPR would lose syphon (the syphon chamber would get air locked and with the failed diaphragm the aqualifter couldnt pull the air out). I was getting so paranoid I replaced my aqualifters every 3 months (I flooded my place quite often, thankfully it was in a basement).

This has happened to me with 2 different CPR100's and at least 9 Aqualifters

It may have simply been the salt water slowly destroying the rubber, but it was enough that I have been leery to bring my last CPR100 back in service.


----------



## sjb1987

GDominy said:


> How are you finding using an aqualifter as your vacuum pump with the CPR? I used to run a CPR 100 with an aqualifter on my reef tank and I was constantly having problems with the diaphragms failing and my CPR would lose syphon (the syphon chamber would get air locked and with the failed diaphragm the aqualifter couldnt pull the air out). I was getting so paranoid I replaced my aqualifters every 3 months (I flooded my place quite often, thankfully it was in a basement).
> 
> This has happened to me with 2 different CPR100's and at least 9 Aqualifters
> 
> It may have simply been the salt water slowly destroying the rubber, but it was enough that I have been leery to bring my last CPR100 back in service.


Did it have a pre filter on it?


----------



## GDominy

sjb1987 said:


> Did it have a pre filter on it?


It has happened to me with or without the pre filter. I did have some pretty turbulent wave action mind you, so the chance of sucking air was greatly increased over a calm surface. I simply may have pushed the little things too hard.


----------



## sjb1987

Could have been the salt corroded it... I'm runnin an aqualifter on mine... Hopefully I never run into any floods...I check it everyday and clean the pre filter once a week...mostly from paranoia


----------



## plantbrain

sjb1987 said:


> What's the width from tip to tip on the mystery plant next to the l. Sp red?


Depends on how long I allow it to grow before hacking it back.

It got a good 5-6" across in a 350 gal tank, maybe 4-5" here at full bloom.

It's a weed amongst weeds.


----------



## plantbrain

GDominy said:


> How are you finding using an aqualifter as your vacuum pump with the CPR? I used to run a CPR 100 with an aqualifter on my reef tank and I was constantly having problems with the diaphragms failing and my CPR would lose syphon (the syphon chamber would get air locked and with the failed diaphragm the aqualifter couldnt pull the air out). I was getting so paranoid I replaced my aqualifters every 3 months (I flooded my place quite often, thankfully it was in a basement).
> 
> This has happened to me with 2 different CPR100's and at least 9 Aqualifters
> 
> It may have simply been the salt water slowly destroying the rubber, but it was enough that I have been leery to bring my last CPR100 back in service.


Like anything, I watch it. A snail could get wedged in etc.
I'll spot the reduced flow in the cup or see more bubbles, or after a water change, it will slow down the repriming of the siphon.

I have a dozen kits to replace the diaphrams.
I catch them long long before they actually would "fail".

I'll make some custom overflow bean animal style later this summer.

They will not have any of that.


----------



## plantbrain

GDominy said:


> It has happened to me with or without the pre filter. I did have some pretty turbulent wave action mind you, so the chance of sucking air was greatly increased over a calm surface. I simply may have pushed the little things too hard.


All sorts of sessile inverts can get sucked into those, so that was more likely what occurred.

I use a Vortech MP40 on the 180 and have a ripping current.
But this will be a non issue this summer or thereabouts.


----------



## GDominy

plantbrain said:


> All sorts of sessile inverts can get sucked into those, so that was more likely what occurred.
> 
> I use a Vortech MP40 on the 180 and have a ripping current.
> But this will be a non issue this summer or thereabouts.


Quite possible. It was an enormous reef and had a thriving population of critters. They would turn up in everything. Shredded more then my fair share of impellors that way.


----------



## plantbrain

GDominy said:


> Quite possible. It was an enormous reef and had a thriving population of critters. They would turn up in everything. Shredded more then my fair share of impellors that way.


I've only had the sponge prefilter slip off a couple of times and got a couple of fish.


----------



## plantbrain

I looked at the R macrandra a while today, I might keep it there longer and see.
I'm in no rush and can wait and keep trimming it. It reddened back up after today being out in the full light rather than a back ground plant.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

What is that smalled leaved orange looking plant right there?


----------



## puopg

HD Blazingwolf said:


> What is that smalled leaved orange looking plant right there?


Blazingwolf, I believe that is Ludwigia Pantanal.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

puopg said:


> Blazingwolf, I believe that is Ludwigia Pantanal.


Its so hard to tell from so far away.. if thats it. Ur good. It just looks like a small leaved plant to me


----------



## antbug

Pantanal for sure. Good eye Michael.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

antbug said:


> Pantanal for sure. Good eye Michael.


Holy Carp! (Goldfish joke)
I must be getting blind!


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

I've noticed that when you trim your Tonina fluvalitilis, I still see the growing crowns. Do the bottoms not survive? How do you propagate/make money off it, then?


----------



## antbug

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Holy Carp! (Goldfish joke)
> I must be getting blind!


We've both seen this tank in person, so we cheated a little


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

Oh of course! That explains a lot then
Darn cheaters


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> I've noticed that when you trim your Tonina fluvalitilis, I still see the growing crowns. Do the bottoms not survive? How do you propagate/make money off it, then?


I save the bottoms and the ones with side shoots and replant them. I tried growing them emergent, sort of works, they branch like mad then, but need to be kept warm.

Some of the bottoms are toast, those are tossed, but the tops grow and stay very nice all the time.

I might get 12-15 new tops per trim session once every 2 months.
So that's about 80-100$ worth of plants.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Oh of course! That explains a lot then
> Darn cheaters


In your defense, the L. gigantea or whatever the heck it is, giant weed, is blocking the view due to the timing of the trims.

The plant gets trimmed 1-2x a week in this tank, it's a PITA.
It does better actually in my 180 Gallon.

I take the cutting and the trashed stems from this tank and transfer it over there where they grow slower, easier, more consistent and nicer. They do not get trimmed often over there, maybe once a month at most.


----------



## plantbrain

There's 3-4 of those Elatine hydropiper patches left out of the maybe 50-100 I planted.

I'll have to try something else with the fish I have.

Likely HC, but I'd also like to replace the Elatine triandra with something he same similar left size and shade. So the HC might go there, then the other yet to be known species will go where the EH was planned.

I might use mini Riccia. Been about 10 years since I used it.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> I might use mini Riccia. Been about 10 years since I used it.


There might be a reason for that :wink:
Next time u thrash some pantanal, id love to grab some from you.
Also wood arrived. Its splendid. Payment should go out tonight ive been lazy and forgotten to do it, i apologize.


----------



## plantbrain

Riccia is a weed, but I tend this tank and seem motivated to do so.
If not, "ferr get about it".

It's a nice bright pearling whitish color like the Anubias but fine textured.


----------



## Ach1Ll3sH33L

Tom do you have the presentation you gave at the aga conference online anywhere?


----------



## plantbrain

Ach1Ll3sH33L said:


> Tom do you have the presentation you gave at the aga conference online anywhere?


The AGA is the owner of that property.
They have DVD's available on line for sale.

http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/merch.html


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

hmm, i do like it's appearance, you may end up making me want to try it since i spend about 2 days a week working on it. i may have the time to tend to some riccia


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> hmm, i do like it's appearance, you may end up making me want to try it since i spend about 2 days a week working on it. i may have the time to tend to some riccia


If you have the dwarf mini riccia/can get it, I can send some rather nice long stems of pantanal in trade bait.


----------



## iter

Tom, what do you think is the best way to grow riccia emersed?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

im in the aquatic plant cloaca of the world.
but i am planning a trip to volunteer at the aquarium. i'll check locals and see if its a possible nab. i'll let you know by this commign wednesday. if u can' wait that long its not a big deal


----------



## plantbrain

iter said:


> Tom, what do you think is the best way to grow riccia emersed?


Throw in in a ditch that's normal fill with water in your area during the summer.
Wait.

I've seen it growing a few plants on grown in Florida when I lived there, it grows much faster if you add CO2 and ferts in the water.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> im in the aquatic plant cloaca of the world.
> but i am planning a trip to volunteer at the aquarium. i'll check locals and see if its a possible nab. i'll let you know by this commign wednesday. if u can' wait that long its not a big deal


Weeds do not stop growing.

And I am patient, but persistent.


----------



## plantbrain

Still have not decided what plant will go in the front section in the middle, but likely will try some E hydropiper again and perhaps HC./Mic umbrosum "Monte Carlo".
R. macrandra is in a serious need of a trim.

UG is starting to actively grow/fill back in. Seems to not do much for 4-8 weeks, then takes off.
Pantanal is shaping up better after a slight CO2 issue.

I've learned this tank is very touchy about CO2, mostly related to the very high light values.
I may slow things down and drop to 75% max output like the 180 Gallon.
The other idea is to add a dual pipe bean animal like CPR prefilter and this will help a fair amount on this tank.
I'll do this in a month or so.


----------



## synaethetic

Nice looking gold nugget plecos!


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

the plecos are nice

have u considered a bigger drain line instead of having a bean animal?
it functions on the same principle for noise. bigger drain line, less flow.
co2 savings doubled going from a 1 inch to a 1.5. noise was reduced. and you still get alll that turbulent water down the drain to help with gas exchange. for your size tank you may want to go with a 2 inch drain. but then again i don't know ur GPH. at 700 GPH this thing is smooth, but its upper limit is 750 which i have pushed, and it starts making noise, backing up, etc...
done with a CS150 box, and standpipe. vent tube and strainer does not work at that point. i went with a durso style standpipe but i oversized the holes. i did not need it for noise modification, more just height control.. its in my journal if u need to take a look

also, at what height is ur light fixture over the water surface? and how long do u run 100% i know its dimmed up and down, which im still waiting on a time lapse video


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> the plecos are nice
> 
> have u considered a bigger drain line instead of having a bean animal?
> it functions on the same principle for noise. bigger drain line, less flow.
> co2 savings doubled going from a 1 inch to a 1.5. noise was reduced. and you still get alll that turbulent water down the drain to help with gas exchange. for your size tank you may want to go with a 2 inch drain. but then again i don't know ur GPH. at 700 GPH this thing is smooth, but its upper limit is 750 which i have pushed, and it starts making noise, backing up, etc...
> done with a CS150 box, and standpipe. vent tube and strainer does not work at that point. i went with a durso style standpipe but i oversized the holes. i did not need it for noise modification, more just height control.. its in my journal if u need to take a look
> 
> also, at what height is ur light fixture over the water surface? and how long do u run 100% i know its dimmed up and down, which im still waiting on a time lapse video


Thanks for the info, always good to see/hear what changes effect CO2/noise.
I like the idea behind the bean animal and the adaptability.

So I can drill a small 1/2 bulkhead on the side for the emergency overflow, and then use the other 2 for the flow control. This way I can dial,it in, but you can do the same with the larger pipe, I just like to have an "oh crap emergency" for any flow constriction.

Bean animal overflow modifications are almost dead silent, and the CO2 lose is minimized. 

Light height is about 18-20"
Time total is 8 hours, with a 1.5 hour ramp up from 0-100%, then a 1.5 ramp down at the end of the cycle. CO2 comes up with the lights, and shuts off about 30 minutes before the lights do at night.

I could have the lights come on 1.5 hours to 75%, and then for the next 5 hours, hit 100%, then 100-0% in the next 1.5 hours. This would match the typical CO2 climb ppm over the light intensity cycle.


----------



## RobMc

This is a fantastically beautiful tank. Very impressive coloration on the ludwigia. I haven't read through the entire post, but how do you dose the tank - and has your dosing regime changed over time?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> Thanks for the info, always good to see/hear what changes effect CO2/noise.
> I like the idea behind the bean animal and the adaptability.
> 
> So I can drill a small 1/2 bulkhead on the side for the emergency overflow, and then use the other 2 for the flow control. This way I can dial,it in, but you can do the same with the larger pipe, I just like to have an "oh crap emergency" for any flow constriction.
> 
> Bean animal overflow modifications are almost dead silent, and the CO2 lose is minimized.
> 
> Light height is about 18-20"
> Time total is 8 hours, with a 1.5 hour ramp up from 0-100%, then a 1.5 ramp down at the end of the cycle. CO2 comes up with the lights, and shuts off about 30 minutes before the lights do at night.
> 
> I could have the lights come on 1.5 hours to 75%, and then for the next 5 hours, hit 100%, then 100-0% in the next 1.5 hours. This would match the typical CO2 climb ppm over the light intensity cycle.


thanks for the light info! i'm still trying to dial mine in. im either too bright or too dim. i'm not such a big fan of the tek 6 bulb for this reason. 2 switches. 1 controls 2 bulbs, 1 controls the other 4 in the middle... it leaves a lot to be desired. but at least the output is decent.


----------



## h4n

very nice as always!  

super nice gold nugget pleco 
Do they mess up your foreground at all? Or suck wood all day long? lol

Also whats the bright green plant under the gold nuggets? 
Some sort of Myriophyllum ?


----------



## Calebh21

I love this tank.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

h4n said:


> very nice as always!
> 
> super nice gold nugget pleco
> Do they mess up your foreground at all? Or suck wood all day long? lol
> 
> Also whats the bright green plant under the gold nuggets?
> Some sort of Myriophyllum ?


Nah, it's Limnophilia gigantea


----------



## plantbrain

RobMc said:


> This is a fantastically beautiful tank. Very impressive coloration on the ludwigia. I haven't read through the entire post, but how do you dose the tank - and has your dosing regime changed over time?


No, not really, CO2/light, that is where it is at.

I dose 15 ppm of KNO3 2-3x a week, PO4, about 5-6 ppm 2-3x a week, and then Gh booster after water changes, then traces 5-6x a week. Feed fish 2x a day.

Nothing complex or that would make a big difference either way.
CO2 and light make all the difference.


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> I've learned this tank is very touchy about CO2, mostly related to the very high light values.
> I may slow things down and drop to 75% max output like the 180 Gallon.
> The other idea is to add a dual pipe bean animal like CPR prefilter and this will help a fair amount on this tank.
> I'll do this in a month or so.


I'm noticing my CPR setup has the same issue of fluctuating CO2 levels depending on how the drain is operating. If there's a lot of gurgling it struggles to keep up. I had a hoffer gurgle buster style drain on it, but the snails kept messing with it so I reverted back to a DIY OEM style drain. 

Do you think there's any extra reason to be cautious drilling an older overflow? Does the acrylic become more brittle with age? That's my hesitation in converting to a bean animal style.

Your tank's looking nice as always man. What happened to the EH? Did the fish mess with it too much?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

AaronT said:


> I'm noticing my CPR setup has the same issue of fluctuating CO2 levels depending on how the drain is operating. If there's a lot of gurgling it struggles to keep up. I had a hoffer gurgle buster style drain on it, but the snails kept messing with it so I reverted back to a DIY OEM style drain.



bigger drain line solves all that


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Tom, when you trim the Tonina, are you able to salvage any of the bottoms? Cause I've had some in there for over a week and they haven't grown at all yet. Also, does very high light hell with its compact growth and side shoots?


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> I'm noticing my CPR setup has the same issue of fluctuating CO2 levels depending on how the drain is operating. If there's a lot of gurgling it struggles to keep up. I had a hoffer gurgle buster style drain on it, but the snails kept messing with it so I reverted back to a DIY OEM style drain.
> 
> Do you think there's any extra reason to be cautious drilling an older overflow? Does the acrylic become more brittle with age? That's my hesitation in converting to a bean animal style.
> 
> Your tank's looking nice as always man. What happened to the EH? Did the fish mess with it too much?


Some Acrylic is cheaper junky stuff, but high grade should handle a fine tooth high speed drill press with very low pressure and slowly drill through it.

Hair line fractures are common around bulkheads.

Note, you can also use those float valve type plumbing in/out let bulk head type of adapters for smaller systems and you can also drill the emergency overflow on the side, since it'll always be higher than the other 2. A simple ball valve will make a large difference in many cases. If you go that route, then a larger pipe dia might be a good idea.

Once set up correctly, such systems are really much easier to care for over time and lily pipes suck eggs.

You also prefilter and catch 98% of the larger filth that clogs normal filters and you tend to clean those more often(you sort of have to). Less rotting leaves and stuff= cleaner nicer tank.

So there are 3 things at least you can do here.

E hdropiper:
Fish and shrimp pulled it all up, but........I did manage to keep one sprig. And I have the M.umbrosum monte carlo also.
It's a creeper and good foreground plant.

The plan is try again with the E hydro and then also do either my 60P or redo the 70 Gal woodagumi with EH.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Tom, when you trim the Tonina, are you able to salvage any of the bottoms? Cause I've had some in there for over a week and they haven't grown at all yet. Also, does very high light hell with its compact growth and side shoots?


Depends, if I let the plants grow over say 8-10", they tend to start making side shoots, which I trim just above and replant the tops, and then save those.

Without the side shoots, not much success personally. 
I do not think you can add too much light on this plant. 
But 1 week is hardly any time to see new growth after getting it.


----------



## UDGags

*Re: 120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style with lots of color instead*

It took the tonina (got from Tom) a good month in my tank before I started seeing significant new growth. I would just be patient.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


----------



## plantbrain

You can always look at the dates and see the rates of growth as the height suddenly changes, hopefully the field of view is not blocked, but I might only trim the Tonina once every 1-2 months. Which makes it a nicer plant. Replanting each stem is a fair amount of work, I would not do it if it was like this weekly.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

No no no, I didn't just get it I just trimmed it. They're growing very well except for the bottoms, which have done nothing so far (except maybe throw out a couple of aerial roots).


----------



## mcfly84

That is a pretty sic looking tank man I love it. Now I know what an awesome scape is supposed to look like lol.:thumbsup:


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

no local dwarf riccia
im placing an order from tpt hobbyist.. as soon as it grows into a thick mat, i'll happily share it with ya. i can't imagine it'll take too long

or would u rather just get sent a small mat when i get it in?


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> no local dwarf riccia
> im placing an order from tpt hobbyist.. as soon as it grows into a thick mat, i'll happily share it with ya. i can't imagine it'll take too long
> 
> or would u rather just get sent a small mat when i get it in?


Small mat sent would be cool.

I obviously have trade bait.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> No no no, I didn't just get it I just trimmed it. They're growing very well except for the bottoms, which have done nothing so far (except maybe throw out a couple of aerial roots).


I think it does best with a little current and ample light from the side(eg a wide spread of lights above).


----------



## plantbrain

Some sections are progressing well, still waiting for some plants for that front section.
The Mic umbrosum monte carlo is growing even if I had one tiny sprig to start. A single sprig of E hydropiper also made it.

Mini pellia is growing in on a few pieces of the wood nicely. I'll tie some more on today.
I much prefer the look of this compared to Fissidens which can get a bit weedy and frags everywhere.

I'm okay with the Rotala macrandra now where it's at, I resisted placing it there for a long long time.
It's relatively manageable in this location also. 

UG is always happiest in this far corner.

I'm not entirely happy with the color development of the L acruata, but it's shaded by the main wood and the other Myrio behind it. 
I might remove it and then allow the mini butter fly to arc around the back side of the wood over to that location. People by that plant, they do not buy L arcuata really.

I topped 90% of the L senegalensis this time instead of uprooting. Then replanted the tops. Does not give quite as nice look while those tops grow back and the bottoms resprout.
But I'll have a pretty dense even growth after wards. When I topped and replanted only fresh tops, the plants grew much faster also. But I did not get a lot of production for sale....and it's more work.

I'll uproot and replant the Downoi in a week or so, this will clean that spot up some and make it more even/uniform.


----------



## ehorn

Very nicely done here. 

Thanks for sharing the journey and your insights.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

Hey Tom, sorry if you've answered this question before but how do you deal with the aquasoil sediment, especially if you're uprooting plants quite often? do you siphon as you uproot?


----------



## gnod

hey tom! amazing tank as usual!

i noticed that you don't have a co2 indicator in the photos. how are you measuring your co2 levels? 

also i came across your old post and loved what you said but have a question about it. 

11/29/11
"I've changed Nothing really, just that SOB overflow screwed my CO2 to Hades. Ferts/light/sediment, all the same, but a massive difference in the end result. The CPR prefilter was 10X better choice for the tank.
Just a minor issue with CO2 makes all the difference.

*I nag all the time about this, but when you can carefully measure the light and adjust it to within 1-2 umol and the ferts/sediment are the same, tap water and care all, the same, you really end up with only one variable.

And if you target that before you add fish/shrimp etc and use the plants as a good indicator....then you have the turkey cooked good.*"

so how does one begin to even target the right balance of light? and then co2? 
can i ask how many hours your lights are on daily? 

thank you!


----------



## sayurasem

Wow UG is looking sexy. may I know how often you trim the UG? Plus can the trimming be replanted on an emerged setup? I'm not sure because the trimming is only leafs.


----------



## plantbrain

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> Hey Tom, sorry if you've answered this question before but how do you deal with the aquasoil sediment, especially if you're uprooting plants quite often? do you siphon as you uproot?


I do a water change after the trim/uprooting.


----------



## plantbrain

gnod said:


> hey tom! amazing tank as usual!
> 
> i noticed that you don't have a co2 indicator in the photos. how are you measuring your co2 levels?
> 
> also i came across your old post and loved what you said but have a question about it.
> 
> 11/29/11
> "I've changed Nothing really, just that SOB overflow screwed my CO2 to Hades. Ferts/light/sediment, all the same, but a massive difference in the end result. The CPR prefilter was 10X better choice for the tank.
> Just a minor issue with CO2 makes all the difference.
> 
> *I nag all the time about this, but when you can carefully measure the light and adjust it to within 1-2 umol and the ferts/sediment are the same, tap water and care all, the same, you really end up with only one variable.
> 
> And if you target that before you add fish/shrimp etc and use the plants as a good indicator....then you have the turkey cooked good.*"
> 
> so how does one begin to even target the right balance of light? and then co2?
> can i ask how many hours your lights are on daily?
> 
> thank you!


You mean a drop checker? I do not use them, hate them. 
I've got a few different methods to measure CO2, mostly pH and KH and then some other test to see if there's any non carbonate KH in the tap water.
Then apply the pH/KH chart. Then I've made some known CO2 solutions in a sealed flask. This way I can check to confirm my methods.

No one else seems to bother doing that step. A couple have suggested it using paint ball 12 gram CO2 cartridges, but can you see someone trying to add all that gas into solution into a flask that's sealed without loss?
Know weight of gas etc, but really really hard to dose and dissolve into the water without loss. I think they said it just to BS me, I tried it and it was PITA and would break the glass flask etc.

I use the carts for re inflating bike tires, so I have plenty.

I used dry Ice, frozen CO2 gas.
I'm quick between sealing it into a known solution(KH reference DI water mix) and the tank water (KH measured). Since we have a known volume of water and known weight and one case a known KH made entirely from carbonates and DI water, we have the mg/l or ppms.

If the pH/KH match up, then we know the KH is all carbonate and we can use the chart.

If not, we can make adjustments to account for the pH difference.


----------



## plantbrain

gnod said:


> h
> *I nag all the time about this, but when you can carefully measure the light and adjust it to within 1-2 umol and the ferts/sediment are the same, tap water and care all, the same, you really end up with only one variable.
> 
> And if you target that before you add fish/shrimp etc and use the plants as a good indicator....then you have the turkey cooked good.*"
> 
> so how does one begin to even target the right balance of light? and then co2?
> can i ask how many hours your lights are on daily?
> 
> thank you!


I use a light meter, Hoppy has an estimative index of light based on distance and lighting types, plenty of data to come pretty close for a lot of lighting types/set ups with a light meter. This will give you a good range and compare to other folk's light values.

Then you just work on CO2, CO2 is not as simple as it seems, it'll burn every and anyone. By far the most dangerous and hardest thing to master.


----------



## gnod

plantbrain said:


> I use a light meter, Hoppy has an estimative index of light based on distance and lighting types, plenty of data to come pretty close for a lot of lighting types/set ups with a light meter. This will give you a good range and compare to other folk's light values.
> 
> Then you just work on CO2, CO2 is not as simple as it seems, it'll burn every and anyone. By far the most dangerous and hardest thing to master.


yep, i read hoppy's thread here and estimate that my light is med-high considering it's height and bulb position. 

so knowing that, i guess my only other variable is to control the length of my light's timing and co2 levels? 

how many hours did you leave your lights on to start off with? i'm assuming you adjusted it as you went on to balance your co2 levels along with plant growth, yes? 

you don't have to go into it but your co2 drop checker explanation went completely over my head.. haha -_- 
:icon_eek:


----------



## plantbrain

Bottom line, CO2 drop checkers suck eggs.

People rely and make way too many assumptions about them and their CO2 ppm's. Way way way too much. 

Did I say way too much? :hihi:


----------



## rbarn

plantbrain said:


> Bottom line, CO2 drop checkers suck eggs.
> 
> People rely and make way too many assumptions about them and their CO2 ppm's. Way way way too much.
> 
> Did I say way too much? :hihi:



Hmmmm ..........
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=71471

any updates on how that meter worked for you and it's accuracy ? I would love to have a digital Co2 meter on my over the top set-up.


----------



## plantbrain

It works fairly well, but no better than the other methods I've suggested. If you can account for any KH differences between a reference and the tank, then you should be good to go with the pH meter and a good KH test method/meter and then use the chart.

For 2000-3000$, I'll stick with the method I have.


----------



## rbarn

plantbrain said:


> For 2000-3000$, I'll stick with the method I have.


:eek5: ..... never mind.

I plan on running reconstituted RO/DI water anyway, so I will know exactly what my KH is.


----------



## plantbrain

rbarn said:


> :eek5: ..... never mind.
> 
> I plan on running reconstituted RO/DI water anyway, so I will know exactly what my KH is.


If it's 100% recon, then use the pH meter and measure the KH as best you can, eg Lamotte alk or a KH reference and meter, eg a Hanna etc.

Then apply the chart. That should give you 99%. Allow the pH to stabilize for 30-60 seconds.


----------



## Ach1Ll3sH33L

Tom is there an ideal kh you try to achieve?
I use ro/di and have constantly aimed to add baking soda to achieve 1 kh, but looking at the kh/ph charts , if i bump my kh up, it looks like more c02 will be dissolved. So in theory, if i don't adjust my c02, and bump up my kh, will this give me a higher c02 ppm, or will this also raise the ph and in turn need more c02 as well. Still trying to 'master' this whole c02 thing!! i think ive reread this entire thread 5 or 6 times and learn something new each time!


----------



## plantbrain

Ach1Ll3sH33L said:


> Tom is there an ideal kh you try to achieve?
> I use ro/di and have constantly aimed to add baking soda to achieve 1 kh, but looking at the kh/ph charts , if i bump my kh up, it looks like more c02 will be dissolved. So in theory, if i don't adjust my c02, and bump up my kh, will this give me a higher c02 ppm, or will this also raise the ph and in turn need more c02 as well. Still trying to 'master' this whole c02 thing!! i think ive reread this entire thread 5 or 6 times and learn something new each time!


No, adding more baking soda does NOT add more CO2.

Adding more CO2, adds more CO2.

Think about it.

KH or 1 perhaps even less is fine. 

If you have a set rate of CO2 gas being added to the tank, say 500mls per hour, adding KH does not change the rate at which it's being added. We add CO2 for the plants to grow. We do not add it to change the pH directly.

Adding more KH just moves the pH higher, but does not change the CO2.
The rate of enrichment remains the same.

If I add 500mls of CO2 gas per hour to a 20 Gal tank with a KH of 10 degrees and this CO2 drives the pH down to 7.0, I'll have about 30 ppm. 
If I add the same amount to a 20 Gal tank with a KH of 1 and push the pH down 6.0, I still have the same concentration: 30 ppm.

Ambient pH without adding CO2 for KH 10: about 8.0-8.2 ranges and for a KH of 7.0-7.2, same pH decrease and same CO2. 

Many seem to think they can play with KH to get more CO2, not, this does NOT work. You add more CO2 to add more CO2. Adding other acids to artificially decrease the pH also does not add more CO2. If you add say HCL or vinegar, this will destroy the KH=> HCO3 + H+(acid) => CO2 and H2O, but then the KH drops real fast. 

Bottom line, add more CO2 if you want more CO2. It's so obvious many miss it :thumbsup:


----------



## Ach1Ll3sH33L

Thanks for explaining that, looking at those c02 charts gets a little confusing, and looks like, if you bump up the kh the c02 is increased, my assumption was this allows more c02 to dissolve, but your explanation makes more sense! especially in how ph probes work to control c02 levels. I think its time to invest in a more accurate ph test.



plantbrain said:


> No, adding more baking soda does NOT add more CO2.
> 
> Adding more CO2, adds more CO2.
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> KH or 1 perhaps even less is fine.
> 
> If you have a set rate of CO2 gas being added to the tank, say 500mls per hour, adding KH does not change the rate at which it's being added. We add CO2 for the plants to grow. We do not add it to change the pH directly.
> 
> Adding more KH just moves the pH higher, but does not change the CO2.
> The rate of enrichment remains the same.
> 
> If I add 500mls of CO2 gas per hour to a 20 Gal tank with a KH of 10 degrees and this CO2 drives the pH down to 7.0, I'll have about 30 ppm.
> If I add the same amount to a 20 Gal tank with a KH of 1 and push the pH down 6.0, I still have the same concentration: 30 ppm.
> 
> Ambient pH without adding CO2 for KH 10: about 8.0-8.2 ranges and for a KH of 7.0-7.2, same pH decrease and same CO2.
> 
> Many seem to think they can play with KH to get more CO2, not, this does NOT work. You add more CO2 to add more CO2. Adding other acids to artificially decrease the pH also does not add more CO2. If you add say HCL or vinegar, this will destroy the KH=> HCO3 + H+(acid) => CO2 and H2O, but then the KH drops real fast.
> 
> Bottom line, add more CO2 if you want more CO2. It's so obvious many miss it :thumbsup:


----------



## gnod

i understand better now! thanks tom! gonna go home and test this out. 
my ph is normally around 6.8 and kh is 2-3. guess i'll be aiming for 6.4 ph!


----------



## plantbrain

I think many people have issues with CO2, not fertilizers.

Why? Because myself and most others have all had the same issues.

Unless the person was not adding ANY ferts or was way way off or missign one or two specific ferts, it's rare that's the problem. 

Co2? It's almost a daily occurrence.

"My drop checker is always green"

So what, who can tell the difference between the pH change between 6.6 and 6.7?

2 hour delay response times are also painful, and the accuracy is really pretty poor. In the end, it's about as good as bubble counting per second etc.

KH may not be 100% guaranteed all carbonate alkalinity, but the pH can be adjusted for and is very accurate if you use say a Pinpoint pH meter.
Then use the Chart.

If the growth is stil l lack luster, you can slowly add a little bit more CO2 and adjust it once a week till the plants are really thriving. Do not adjust more than 0.1 pH between adjustments. 

As you increase CO2 to the higher ranges, the relationship is not linear with CO2 ppm's, they increase for EACH pH step of 0.1.

Example:

Say you have a KH of 3 degrees.

At a pH of 7.0 you would have 9 ppm
At a pH of 6.8 you would have 14.3 ppm
At a pH of 6.6 you would have 22.6 ppm
At a pH of 6.4 you would have 35.8 ppm
At a pH of 6.2 you would have 56.8 ppm
At a pH of 6.0 you would have 90 ppm

Differences between each 0.2 pH units:
5.3 ppm
8.3 ppm
13.2 ppm
21 ppm
33.2 ppm

So your pH measurement and observations need to be very good when you use more CO2. If you over do things at the higher ppm's, it only takes a little bit of change to dramatically increase the CO2.
This is one reason why many people fail when adding more CO2 and gas their fish instead. If each 0.2 pH units were only 5 ppm difference, then it would be pretty easy to adjust CO2. This is also a good reason to buy a nice CO2 regulator, needle valve etc.
The high grade equipment for CO2, good filter and lighting, all well worth it. 

Blowing 50-100$ for fert test kits? Not worth it.

Since many use the drop checkers and there's little differences between the colors and those color changes are at best, 0.2 pH, what does this say at the higher ppm's of CO2? Not much.

Or if they use colormetric pH measure? Similar.
A good 0.01 accuracy pH meter is likely the best relative measure for CO2 using pH.

I knock my pH down about 1.4 pH units. This is about 47 ppm.
If it went to 1.6, then I'm at 75 ppm's, if I back off just a hair, 0.1 pH units, then I'm about 1.5 pH units, I'm at 59 ppm. 1.3 pH units, 38ppm, 1.2 pH units, about 30 ppm.

Tweaking CO2 is not some simple thing. It's not something to just wing it and assume the drop check has to be correct. You need to be careful.
A good pH meter can help make small tweaks and adjustments.

The other problem with pH drop checkers: they are typically only targeting 30 ppm of CO2, but you might need more. Will you wait around to see if the pH changes 0.1 pH units with a drop checker? *No one does that.*
pH meter? You can do that easily. 

Cost more, but far more accurate as a relative measurement.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

i may have asked and missed this before.. i tried to find it
but what kind of flow are you runign through this tank? and is it all through the main return or do you have flow modifiers such as a powerhead?

what size return outlet do you have?

hehe give me all your secrets!! muwahahahaha


----------



## plantbrain

I use a Lifegard pump and it pushes about 700 gph through a 3/4" clean PVC return pipe.


----------



## ehorn

Why have ph controllers fallen out of favor in recent times?

They seem to be a useful tool for dialing in these thresholds... what am I missing?


----------



## JSE

DO WANT! What are these???


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> I use a Lifegard pump and it pushes about 700 gph through a 3/4" clean PVC return pipe.


Really? I would have assumed more flow to distribute through the plant beds
I know ur 180 used to be really high flow


----------



## lamiskool

Jse hard to tell from the ones on the left I believe its some kind of Erio? and the ones you marked on the right are downoi. Speaking of which if you ever have any extra Tom please sell me some downoi and staurogyne(if your even still growing these), im currently looking for some!


----------



## plantbrain

The monte carlo Micrantherum is growing in nicely.

Mini A reineckii is doing well. Dwarf riccia on the branch will be expanded here and there. 

Removed the Fissidens branch on the far right side and replaced with a thicker Mini pellia branch. I'll add more as I harvest of can buy more of the mini pellia to fill that section in, the branch will fill in nicely, but it'll take a couple of weeks.


----------



## plantbrain

ehorn said:


> Why have ph controllers fallen out of favor in recent times?
> 
> They seem to be a useful tool for dialing in these thresholds... what am I missing?


what happens if the KH moves from say 18 ppm to 40 ppm if your tap water and you do not catch it?

You'll end up with dead fish if the CO2 is already high.

Murphy can teach you many things. pH does NOT measure CO2, it's only part of it.


----------



## plantbrain

JSE said:


> DO WANT! What are these???


Erio cinereum and Downoi (P helferi).


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Really? I would have assumed more flow to distribute through the plant beds
> I know ur 180 used to be really high flow


I still have high flow in both tanks, but how the water movs is more specific.
The 180 still has the Vortech and the higher flow return(about 1000 gph or so) and the Vortech adds maybe 2000 gph of flow.

Also, these are deep dense plant beds, they are very shallow in the 120 Gallon, only 6-8 " tall for most groups.
About 2/3rds of the 180 is Starougyne, also, only about 3" tall average.


----------



## plantbrain

The monte carlo Micrantherum is growing in nicely.

Mini A reineckii is doing well. Dwarf riccia on the branch will be expanded here and there. 

Removed the Fissidens branch on the far right side and replaced with a thicker Mini pellia branch. I'll add more as I harvest of can buy more of the mini pellia to fill that section in, the branch will fill in nicely, but it'll take a couple of weeks.


----------



## ehorn

plantbrain said:


> what happens if the KH moves from say 18 ppm to 40 ppm if your tap water and you do not catch it?
> 
> You'll end up with dead fish if the CO2 is already high.
> 
> Murphy can teach you many things. pH does NOT measure CO2, it's only part of it.


Thanks Tom,

That would be a sharp KH move... Murphy would have been in full force that day... However, It happens... It's Murphy...

But indeed, KH must be baselined and checked to maintain safe ph limits.

Thanks again for your contributions,

P.S. The wife was looking over my shoulder the other day and asked what are these (red box)?










Are those Ludwigia sphaerocarpa? Whatever they are, she says they're gorgeous... THat means I'll have to watch the S&S for those. 

Kind Regards,

-Jay


----------



## akpoly

Amazing as always. Your downoi are especially impressive compared to the ones I typically see.


----------



## plantbrain

Jay, I'm about the only one selling the L. sphaerocarpa, PM me. I tend to move the downoi around a lot, but I have not messed with this patch for a month or a little over. Starts to really thicken up.


----------



## samee

plantbrain said:


> Jay, I'm about the only one selling the L. sphaerocarpa, PM me. I tend to move the downoi around a lot, but I have not messed with this patch for a month or a little over. Starts to really thicken up.


Hey Im selling that too....in Canada:hihi:

Your tank is not dense enough, tooooo organized.


----------



## chris.rivera3

Tom where is the Mini A reineckii? I don't see it any pictures


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

I hope you didn't pay $200 for that...


----------



## plantbrain

chris.rivera3 said:


> Tom where is the Mini A reineckii? I don't see it any pictures


It's between the UG and the Mini Myrio on the side shot.
It's coloring up a bit better the last 2 days. I got it for free via sending someone a little bit of Rotala sunset.

It seems to do best shaded under a stem plant in the mid ground.
I've tried it in other locations, but it's been troublesome.
5 to 10$ a stem for now.....is a reasonable $ for it.

There are some new plants that will be about 50$ a stem in awhile.

They are not to market just yet.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

That's good, though I wonder if they regret doing that if they were to see the prices they've been sold at. Have any pantanal to sell?


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> That's good, though I wonder if they regret doing that if they were to see the prices they've been sold at. Have any pantanal to sell?


I actually do not sell Pant from this tank, the left over rubbish is sent to the background on my 180 Gal, they sprout and grow up from there.

Since there's not much gardening going on back there and it does not look bad etc, that woulds as a temp farm of sorts for some species.


----------



## ehorn

plantbrain said:


> Jay, I'm about the only one selling the L. sphaerocarpa, PM me...


Thanks Tom, will do... We have a re-scape planned in a few weeks... . 

Kind Regards,

-Jay


----------



## tanksalot

Tom:
The tank looks incredible, with the water totally, totally clear. I have a drilled 90 gal. (former reef tank) and a modified wet/dry filter, and your tank epitomizes what I'd like to have (and probably 99% of those following this thread would like to have.). A few questions, please, if you don't mind:

Looking at your sump, it appears you feed CO2 directly to the sealed trickle chamber. Is that correct?

Also, part of that water clarity seems to be due to the absence of O2 pearling from the plants. Is that due to the timing of the photos, or do you control parameters to keep the O2 from oversaturating the water?

The filter looks to be purple bio-balls and ???(shrimp-shaped pieces of ?) followed by very large sponge blocks. No Matrix, lava or other porous media? What does your filter cleaning consist of, and how often?

Thanks in advance!
Stan F.


----------



## plantbrain

Built in over flows have always had issues for me.

I prefer the hang on type, or I suppose you can build a hang on style permanently affixed. If you can modify to do a bean animal design with the built in(tough to get that many bulk heads in the small space in most of them), likely will be pretty good then.

I add CO2 near the suction side of the return pump, some tanks I sent the water to a reactor and then the outflow to the return pump, feeding the CO2 into a needle wheel powerhead that sends the CO2 froth to the reactor.
This removes most of the mist.

The pearling seems to enhance clarity, so good plant growth= better clarity. Even with the mist.......larger tanks, the mist can become an issue for clarity.
But a post reactor will solve that issue and improve CO2 use efficiency.

Still, CO2 usage, maybe only 1% at best actually goes to the plant, the rest is degassed.

Regardless of the method used to add CO2.

I use foam blocks only really.
The Bio bale (CPR stuff) and some bioballs are all I'll use.
Foam is from swisstropicals.com 20 ppi.

30 ppi clogs too much, I'll use 10 ppi on prefilters, sometimes 20 ppi.

If you demand more clarity, then using say a Nu Clear or OC canister filter on an independent loop(so when it clogs, the main filter flow does not drop) would be a wise thing. Water change flow up into/out of the main tank, or you can run it in/out of the sump.

These run at 20 microns, and clog after 1-2 weeks for many planted tanks in the 120-200 gallon ranges.

A semi clogged foam block is a VERY good filter for clarity though.

Very clogged= bad or newly clean= bad.


----------



## tanksalot

Thanks, Tom!

I'll set up a series of foam filters, and clean/change out half each time. 

Before I drilled the tank, I had a hang-on overflow which would periodically lose its' siphon with air bubbles forming at the top. Then I drilled the tank and told my wife "no more floods". So after that a snail got stuck on the float switch shaft, and I got flood #17.

Tanksalot
Stan F.


----------



## plantbrain

I have 2 clients with flood proof systems.

You have an over flow with a bean animal design. 
the tanks can never over flow this way since the 3rd pipe has the emergency open pipe to the drain.

The sumps are similar in design, they have a bulk head about 2" from the top edge and water also goes directly to the drain pipe. 

They both have float switches, so they do not run dry. This way I can add a small pump on a timer to drain water from the sump to this drain pipe and do daily water changes.

Very simple.

These have run for 4 years without a single flood or issue.
I hired a plumber to add the drain, add the hot/cold water lines for the float switch, but everything else I added. I use a carbon prefilter for the tap water to remove Chlorine or Chloramine.


----------



## plantbrain

My toupe lifted up , the UG got dug up by the Botia I suspect, maybe the double trunk elephant nose. 

Looks sort of funny. I'll have to trim it and replant.

New pics this weekend.


----------



## sarazorz

If I hadn't said so already, this tank is my favorite of all the tanks I've seen. Can't wait for more pics! I'm jealous of your reds. Mine aren't that red, even dosing iron and I've got high light. Maybe it just takes time 

Gahhh I love this tank!!! wnkefoiwneofnkwoefnkoiu2093u84029u!!!


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## HD Blazingwolf

is ur main return pump mistin ur co2, or do you have a pre-mister pump to chop things up?


----------



## @[email protected]

speaking of misting, would you mind sharing your thoughts on misting vs reacting?
i was discussing it with a fellow NJAGC member the other day, as he uses a reactor, and doesnt like getting any mist. but i remember reading somewhere that a mist is actually better for the plants. this makes some intuitive sense to me, as dissolved CO2 isnt really CO2, but an equilibrium of CO2, H2CO3, HCO3--, and CO3--. i know some plants can use carbonates for carbon, but i dont THINK (please correct me if im wrong on this) all of them can. so 1 mL of mist is 1mL of CO2(g) in the tank, while 1mL of mist reacted is at least partially carbonic acid and carbonates which may not be bioavailable (though as plants remove the CO2, some of the other forms will convert following lechatliers principle).
so basically, im asking is there a benefit to misting with just a diffuser vs fully reacting in a reactor?


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> is ur main return pump mistin ur co2, or do you have a pre-mister pump to chop things up?


Main lining. Direct. But the return line is about 6ft long.


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> speaking of misting, would you mind sharing your thoughts on misting vs reacting?
> i was discussing it with a fellow NJAGC member the other day, as he uses a reactor, and doesnt like getting any mist. but i remember reading somewhere that a mist is actually better for the plants. this makes some intuitive sense to me, as dissolved CO2 isnt really CO2, but an equilibrium of CO2, H2CO3, HCO3--, and CO3--. i know some plants can use carbonates for carbon, but i dont THINK (please correct me if im wrong on this) all of them can. so 1 mL of mist is 1mL of CO2(g) in the tank, while 1mL of mist reacted is at least partially carbonic acid and carbonates which may not be bioavailable (though as plants remove the CO2, some of the other forms will convert following lechatliers principle).
> so basically, im asking is there a benefit to misting with just a diffuser vs fully reacting in a reactor?


While many species can use indirect bicarbonate, they all prefer CO2 over that.

When light is high and CO2 is limiting, then they go after it, as you increase CO2[aq], then the difference in growth is the same in higher KH's vs lower KH's. At lower CO2 and lower KH's, then the plants will use both and a tank with more KH and low CO2 will have more total carbon available.

But this is due to the CO2 being limited, not so much pH or KH directly.

You can see the growth as measured by O2 production converges as you increase free CO2 in the water(pg 765):

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/58/6/761.full.pdf

This happens at about 0.5 to 0.6 mM of CO2.
Which is about 20-30 ppm of CO2. But these are 3 very aggressive easy to grow weeds. Other species will need more CO2 to get to that point.


So at low CO2, more KH is good for growth(source of carbon).
At high free CO2, does not matter. You can see this from the graph in Figure 4. 

Growth is the same and levels off(saturates). So at that point on, the CO2 is non limiting. Same in figure 6, after 400-500 umol of light, CO2 uptake stops increasing. So adding more light than this is not going to produce more growth.

At least for these weeds.

At the 0-100 umol light ranges, there are huge differences in growth rates however between those 4 weedy plants. At low light, the Hydrilla can really really growth much better and removes all the CO2, leaving only the KH left which takes more energy and work to assimilate. 

So plants compete for CO2 and light. If those are non limiting, then you can test ferts.

Likewise, if the ferts and light are non limiting, then you can test CO2 or KH.
Same deal again with CO2/ferts being non limiting and then you vary light.


----------



## @[email protected]

excellent info. thanks tom.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> Main lining. Direct. But the return line is about 6ft long.


impressive. to get my co2 where i need, the bubbles come out larger than i think they should.. kinda wastefull.. ive tried a needlewheel pre return and it actually makes the bubbles larger, im at a loss besides looking into a post reactor of some kind


----------



## plantbrain

You can run the CO2 a few different ways to get the best effect for your tank.

This takes tinkering really.

In my 70 Gal, the mist looks like crap really. 

Not bad in this tank, but I have a large reactor chamber, a 4" x 20" clear housing, plenty big enough. I'll modify and dual venturi the line to purge the gas build up.

On my post Ph.D.(now that is finally completed) to do list.
Also, same for my 180 and 70 Gal. 

I need to rescape my ADA 60p and the 70 Gal also.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

plantbrain said:


> 1.This takes tinkering really.
> 
> 2. I'll modify and dual venturi the line to purge the gas build up.


1. phew, man im trying, i've got multiple pump,hose sizes and lengths, diffusers, reactors. etc
i've tried a needlewheel pre return into reactor that fed into the return and that sucked
. i'll try a longer coiled return line and see how that works. do you think pressure difference between 3/4 id or 1 in i.d. makes a difference?

2. how do you plant to accomplish this?


----------



## Ach1Ll3sH33L

HD Blazingwolf said:


> impressive. to get my co2 where i need, the bubbles come out larger than i think they should.. kinda wastefull.. ive tried a needlewheel pre return and it actually makes the bubbles larger, im at a loss besides looking into a post reactor of some kind


I had a similar problem i solved this way. I still diffuse c02 into the sump pump which turns it into a mist, It then goes into a reactor that catches any large bubbles, but also lets some c02 build, and i still get a nice mist in the tank. Later in the photoperiod i have a nice mist in the tank and I can hear the reactor full of c02. Best of both worlds and more efficient for my setup.


----------



## AaronT

HD Blazingwolf said:


> impressive. to get my co2 where i need, the bubbles come out larger than i think they should.. kinda wastefull.. ive tried a needlewheel pre return and it actually makes the bubbles larger, im at a loss besides looking into a post reactor of some kind


Keep in mind that CO2 gas dissolves very quickly in water, like less than 5 seconds so the reason you may have seen bigger bubbles is because you were diffusing it even more efficiently and causing larger bubbles of atmospheric gas to form. 

The CO2 mist that everyone talks about is only comprised of CO2 near the point of entry. Once the bubbles are on the other side of the tank they are no longer CO2, but atmospheric gasses. 

The reason you don't see these using a reactor style difusser is because the atmospheric gases build up inside of the reactor chamber instead of being shot all around the tank.


----------



## @[email protected]

AaronT said:


> Keep in mind that CO2 gas dissolves very quickly in water, like less than 5 seconds so the reason you may have seen bigger bubbles is because you were diffusing it even more efficiently and causing larger bubbles of atmospheric gas to form.
> 
> The CO2 mist that everyone talks about is only comprised of CO2 near the point of entry. Once the bubbles are on the other side of the tank they are no longer CO2, but atmospheric gasses.
> 
> The reason you don't see these using a reactor style difusser is because the atmospheric gases build up inside of the reactor chamber instead of being shot all around the tank.


so you are saying that when a micro bubble is shot out of my atomizer and out my filter output, that by the time it reaches the other end of the tank; that it is no longer CO2, the CO2 has dissolved and been replaced with N2 and O2? am i understanding you correctly?
why would that be the case? i can understand the CO2 dissolving, but why would N2 and O2 replace it in the bubble by coming out of solution (in fact, why would they come out of solution, they dont have a common ion or anything like that)? and why come out of solution into the bubble rather than on the surface? 
this is the first time im hearing this and its very intruiging, please help me understand. :biggrin:


----------



## AaronT

@[email protected] said:


> so you are saying that when a micro bubble is shot out of my atomizer and out my filter output, that by the time it reaches the other end of the tank; that it is no longer CO2, the CO2 has dissolved and been replaced with N2 and O2? am i understanding you correctly?
> why would that be the case? i can understand the CO2 dissolving, but why would N2 and O2 replace it in the bubble by coming out of solution (in fact, why would they come out of solution, they dont have a common ion or anything like that)? and why come out of solution into the bubble rather than on the surface?
> this is the first time im hearing this and its very intruiging, please help me understand. :biggrin:


My understanding is that it has to do with saturation rates. CO2 saturates in water at way higher rates than some other gasses like O2. I'm not sure exactly what gasses are being pushed out, but yes, the tiny bubbles on the other side of the tank are likely not comprised of CO2. 

The theory behind the mist working so well is that the bubbles disturb the natural barrier that the plants create around themselves from which they derive their nutrients. This is why good circulation is also important in an aquarium. It serves the same purpose. 

I remember reading that Tom was speculating that this is also why plants seem to do so well after large water changes that briefly expose them to the air.


----------



## jccaclimber

It's been a few years since my last chem class, but that sounds suspicious, especially as I tend to believe that CO2 levels going up don't decrease O2 levels. I'm also pretty sure that the large bubbles in my reactor are in fact CO2. I suppose I could test this by capturing some and seeing what effect they have on a flame.


----------



## AaronT

jccaclimber said:


> It's been a few years since my last chem class, but that sounds suspicious, especially as I tend to believe that CO2 levels going up don't decrease O2 levels. I'm also pretty sure that the large bubbles in my reactor are in fact CO2. I suppose I could test this by capturing some and seeing what effect they have on a flame.


An oldie, but goodie on CO2 saturation. It happens fast. CO2 can be fully saturated at up to 1500 ppm according to Henry's Law. That's a lot of stinkin' CO2 and the reason why it dissolves so quickly. I won't argue which gasses or how much is forced out of solution, but I'm pretty certain those little bubbles on the other side of your tank are not CO2 and neither is that large bubble in your CO2 reactor by the end of the day. 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21776&highlight=CO2+saturation+bottle

The reason fish can't tolerate excessive CO2 is that it messes with the pressures in the water and makes it hard for them to push out CO2 and take in O2 even if O2 levels are very high.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> Keep in mind that CO2 gas dissolves very quickly in water, like less than 5 seconds so the reason you may have seen bigger bubbles is because you were diffusing it even more efficiently and causing larger bubbles of atmospheric gas to form.
> 
> The CO2 mist that everyone talks about is only comprised of CO2 near the point of entry. Once the bubbles are on the other side of the tank they are no longer CO2, but atmospheric gasses.
> 
> The reason you don't see these using a reactor style difusser is because the atmospheric gases build up inside of the reactor chamber instead of being shot all around the tank.


Conditions such as flow, ambient CO2 concentration, rates of degassing. What about water surface tension on a gas bubble? Hardness/TDS/salts play a large role there. This is WHY we see ultra fine mist in marine systems with aeration/protein skimmers, but hardly any with freshwater. The increase in surface tension allows for the ultra fine mist we see in marine tanks. As a highly soluble gas like CO2 dissolves, the tension for the bubble dramatically increases. Water depth also can play a role, pressure is different. 

These are not simplistic conditions.
Example:
http://www.istp-22.org/proceedings/proceedings/documents/94.pdf

5 seconds traveling at 1-2 meter/sec also is a long way to go. Traveling from the impeller, that's across the entire length of my tanks(any of them) easily.
Also, given the CO2 gas we add is relatively pure, no one has ever stated what the mystery gas is or even offered a rational hypothesis.

Plants are cleaner and grow better with it, but this may likely just be the mist itself breaking up surface barrier layer around leaves. Not direct main line CO2 gas per se, but this is a rather difficult thing to measure experimentally.

But as far as the gas, till you run the gas mix through a GC etc, or something along those lines and can capture it etc. You really are way out on limb there.

CO2 does dissolve pretty quick, but I can place different currents and see the bubbles travel much farther, and the type of mist also plays a large role, say a Mazzei, vs Needle Wheel vs say a disc. Each produces mist, but the size fractions are very different for the micro bubbles. Medications can cause all sorts of frothy behaviors of gases and mist, surface tensions also. 

Still, the Mist itself inside reactors, should be purged IMO/IME. The gas gap inside the reactors reduces flow and reduces the mist from being captured and dissolved(less efficient reactor basically). You want some slight gas mist by pass from a reactor, and only when the gas bubble builds up to some specific level, say 5-10" of the reactor tube volume.

This is the trade off with mist: a little= not an issue and improves reactor efficacy. Too much, ugly haze in the tank, less water clarity. No mist: poor reactor efficacy.

My oldest internal reactor does the self purging at about that level. This can be modified to external type reactors. 

My take on what those other gases are: it's the sum total of the gases in the water, not one specific gas. When you have mist entering, this also creates a massive surface area and diffusion and degassing are 2 way streets, correct?

So CO2 is going in while say O2 is coming out, I doubt N2 is changing much. the total gas saturation ppm does change(we add a lot more CO2 and the plants produce more O2 ONLY during the day). The mist is more pronounced later in the day, same with the build up inside reactors. O2 degasses like CO2 would(and we have ample supply above ambient conditions for both during the day cycle).

The higher than ambient ppm CO2 is added and control by the hobbyists, the higher than ambient O2 is controlled by the plants' growth rate. But both gases still degas out of the water into the air if they are at a higher concentration in the water than the air above.

The micro bubble likely acts like the air above on a much smaller scale. CO2 out into the water/O2 into the bubble. I tried to see if I could collect the gas and light a match in the collected flask. But it's pretty wet and was not purged of H2O vapor.

I likely should get around to testing the gas mixture at some point.


----------



## rowdaddy

*Re: 120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style with lots of color instead*

Absolutely beautiful

I am Rowdaddy. 
SC Aquaria

75 Community
20H Community
20L Convict "Bedroom" 
20L Growout
10gal RCS
1.5gal in progress
55 gal Paludarium/Vivarium coming soon


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> so you are saying that when a micro bubble is shot out of my atomizer and out my filter output, that by the time it reaches the other end of the tank; that it is no longer CO2, the CO2 has dissolved and been replaced with N2 and O2? am i understanding you correctly?
> why would that be the case? i can understand the CO2 dissolving, but why would N2 and O2 replace it in the bubble by coming out of solution (in fact, why would they come out of solution, they dont have a common ion or anything like that)? and why come out of solution into the bubble rather than on the surface?
> this is the first time im hearing this and its very intruiging, please help me understand. :biggrin:


I would speculate this: 

The gas is degassing into the bubble as the CO2 is degassing out.
However, there's a huge problem with this.
The rate of dissolution between O2 and CO2 is enormous.

Still, the huge surface area caused by mist may facilitate a similar case like the surface of our aquariums, with the large amount of CO2 lost to the air above, as well as the O2 being lost when it is over 100% ambient concentration.

We are not really adding more "air" or the other gasses involved in air such as N2, but N2 is not very soluble at all.

Just CO2 and O2 mostly. The mist we add is also entirely CO2 when it starts out. Since the "air" gases other than CO2 and O2 are the same in the water as they are in the air above, there's no exchange/degassing, only CO2 and O2 appear to be able to do this if you ACCEPT the above model.

This seems to make the most sense to me.

But I'd need more than just that personally, I need a 3rd party to confirm the gas. This would not be tough to do either.

Cap the ends on your CO2 reactor late in the day and have a bleed purge valve to remove the gas. Take this whole thing down to a lab. Tell them what you think it is and see if the IR/GC/MS says. Pay the bill and read their analysis.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> I remember reading that Tom was speculating that this is also why plants seem to do so well after large water changes that briefly expose them to the air.


Tap water is typically much higher in CO2 and also in O2.........so that O2 is degassing. Also, the total dissolve gases ppm is higher in tap than your aquarium. You also get massive circulation changes from water changes and al the O2 might enhance the bacteria in the sediment etc.


----------



## plantbrain

Will be doing a few new things this coming week or so.


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## sayurasem

Oh man what happened to the UG?


----------



## plantbrain

sayurasem said:


> Oh man what happened to the UG?


Got harvested, sold and then replanted.


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## puopg

plantbrain said:


> Got harvested, sold and then replanted.


Beautiful as always Tom! How do you maintain the water level in this tank? You use an auto top off or just rate of evap is low enough the weekly water change is enough.


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## plantbrain

puopg said:


> Beautiful as always Tom! How do you maintain the water level in this tank? You use an auto top off or just rate of evap is low enough the weekly water change is enough.


Sump is fairly large, so it last a week or so before I need to refill it, which is the water change schedule at a min typically.

Once we move into our house, I have other plans and automation for water changes and cisterns and landscape irrigation.

I'll mostly just trim at that point and scape.


----------



## plantbrain

One of the ballast fried on the ATI, running 6 bulbs this last week and 1/2 till the new one arrives.


----------



## plantbrain

The monte Carlo foreground plant turned out nicely. Well behaved too. 





















I have a hole in the front there and just pout some R. indica true, but that's just a temporary spot. 
I likely will move a few pieces of the foreground wood and fill the far right with the Ludwigia sphaerocarpa as it has a nice larger bronze colored leaf and will make a nice contrast there.

I have some small Riccia stones and dwarf riccia I'm still thinking about for that front spot.
Riccia is good for CO2 indicator. 


The R macrandra does very well in this front spot also.
I did not have the best of luck with trimming it very frequently over time in the past. Whatever, now it seems that issue is cured, but the rapid growth and shade and current changes does not help the UG. It's growing, but just not that well.
I recently replanted it and it tends to look ratty and yellow for a few weeks till it starts to take off again(2 months). I need to trim the R macrandra obviously in these pics.

Below you can see the mini A reinecki roseafolia. This plant I thought would be not that good/great over time. My main gripe is the color development for most of the Alternathera's, I have some true A. rosefolia, but it hates the full light, this one is more like the old nice stuff I use to get, there must be many variants being sold, because the conditions have been similar when the nice color develops and the location/current, etc. 

An idea is use the A reineckii in the R macrandra spot since it's slower growing and has larger nice cherry color red leaves. Then use the R macrandra in the rear for color contrast.
I moved the mini butterfly back, this is a good spot for it.


----------



## sjb1987

How old was your ati fixture when the ballast went out?


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## plantbrain

sjb1987 said:


> How old was your ati fixture when the ballast went out?


1 year and 4 months, with a 1 year warranty, about 100$ to replace DIY.


----------



## hedge_fund

*120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style with lots of color instead*



plantbrain said:


> One of the ballast fried on the ATI, running 6 bulbs this last week and 1/2 till the new one arrives.


Yikes. 

I have an ATI fixture as well. Best light I have ever used but I cringe at the fact that it might break. 

Where did you order your ballast from?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sjb1987

Figures it would only be 4 months after the warranty... hopefully the replacement will last longer for you


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## plantbrain

sjb1987 said:


> Figures it would only be 4 months after the warranty... hopefully the replacement will last longer for you


The other lights were okay. 

since the lights were the rear two, I was able to slide the light back and forth once a day to get decent front to back spread so the plants did not suffer too much.

Still, yea, figures, just a little while after the warranty runs out.
Ballast swaps are not a big deal though.

At least it is not a 180 cm ADA tank I just had finally fill in nicely after 4 years with a 3 year warranty.........

Could always be much much worse.


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## FlyingHellFish

^ Story on the 180 cm tank, what happen? Crack sealant or something?


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## sjb1987

plantbrain said:


> Could always be much much worse.


Very true


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## plantbrain

FlyingHellFish said:


> ^ Story on the 180 cm tank, what happen? Crack sealant or something?


Front panel near the top, came apart. Seen it on a few tanks, trying to go too thin on the glass. Thicker glass and a little overglue on the edges= much stronger seal over time. It's all about surface contact area.
But cost more and weighs more. 

Still, if you are going to pay 500$ or more for a tank, it better last a long time.


----------



## plantbrain

I tried to put a large lace plant in the rear right corner, but it was just too large.
I'll try E gussonii in the front open spot.

You can see the trim method for the Monte carlo, it's much firmer than you think, it's a tough thick mat, nowhere near as delicate as Gloss, ET, EH etc.
It'll slowly crawl over things.

I replaced about 10 sq ft in a client's tank with that little strip I removed, so it's very dense growth.
Fish did not uproot it at all.

Client's tank is running about 35-25 micromol where it's growing and it appears to have a very wide light tolerance.










[/URL]







[/URL]


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## plantbrain

A severe whacking job:

You can see the monte carlo creeping back already after about a week.
I have a hole in the rear right corner and the front corner area.

Hopefully I'll decide on something in those 2 spots this week or so.

The A reineckii mini is doing well, but frankly, it's not too mini if you ask me. Good coloration though. I whacked the Mini milfoil back so you can actually see it.

Tank is dusty and dirty, have not cleaned the glass or allowed it to settle here, but you get a good feel for the post trim job, I redid the UG, the R mac, the L red, the L. gigantea, the L pantanal, the L senegalensis, the tornado, the mini Milfoil, the R mini butterfly, all in a one hour shot. 

Other changes, switched out the old Victor CO2 for a mini dual stage, added in line CO2 reactor post NW, added dual drain pipes on the overflow/drip plate for increased flow and reduced prefilter clogging, switched out the return for a loc line.




















You can see the front to back scale here:


----------



## sarazorz

*swoon* i am in love.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

what made you feel like you needed more flow + dual drains? also loc line? i throughly enjoyed the clear pvc, you kept tantalizing me with it


----------



## sjb1987

Wow!!! I see what you mean by the r. Mini isnt so mini haha... I think that was a good idea with the loc line...especially since your tank is so wide..


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> what made you feel like you needed more flow + dual drains? also loc line? i throughly enjoyed the clear pvc, you kept tantalizing me with it


Quieter, less clogging of prefilter, more bean animal style, less degassing. This is what is also on my 180 gallon, so now everything is the same for the most part.

Loc line is smaller and more adjustable. Clear stuff like Silly lily pipes= get covered with brown slime and algae over time.

This causes slightly more rippling and flow. I also opened up the flow 100% after adding the in line CO2 catch reactor post NW. So this increased flow a little also, but it's much quieter.

I've not had the chance the really modify the pre filters to mimic the Bean animal design till the last few days. Works very well and is easy.


----------



## plantbrain

sjb1987 said:


> Wow!!! I see what you mean by the r. Mini isnt so mini haha... I think that was a good idea with the loc line...especially since your tank is so wide..


I added those Erio parkeri you sent and that came in great shape. 

They filled that front section with a nice contrast. I will toy with some smaller twisted pieces of Manzy tomorrow in that area to divide things and offer more spacial separation between groupings, but they fit and look good, better than I thought. 

The mini gets about 1", this is about 2x the size I've ever gotten it from others.

It's not R. magenta either, it's got that same freaky color variable stems, maybe one out say 20-50 tops will turn green on you.

I'll place a 3/4" Y on the loc line and see if the spread is better. I have the 1/2" adapters and 1/2" spray bars(quite a few), but these distract too much and adds too much crap inside the tank for my liking. I also might adjust the flow down a touch and see how that affects things.

So I just need to conjure up a decent plant for the rear right hand corner. 
I got some new Ludwigia "pink" ovalis, but it's too similar to other colors, but will see how it develops. 

Potamogeton ampfolius is another native Ca plant option I've not seen anyone grow in the hobby ever.


----------



## sjb1987

Im glad it made it in healthy condition

Pink ovalis... you get it from the uk?... ill be interested in seeing pics of it when its color shows for you


----------



## plantbrain

sjb1987 said:


> Im glad it made it in healthy condition
> 
> Pink ovalis... you get it from the uk?... ill be interested in seeing pics of it when its color shows for you


I ordered 1 , got 13, one did not make it, the others are fine, you'll see ina day or two when I post new pics.

The pink ovalis is in another tank, the leaf shape is a bit too similar for this tank's grouping right now. I have a planned home for it in another tank.

I just need something for the rear corner now.

I thought about making a good size slab or wood with Pellia/subwassertang etc the darker green would look good, but that gets everywhere.

Swords, Most Crypts, Lag's are out.
The giant pond weed is nice, but it's harder to keep the groups nice and tight. 
Plus I have to drive about 2-3 hours each way or so to get it.


----------



## EngineChauffer

Your tank is so awesome! Beautiful stuff. Mesmerized


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

question
do you have the lid on your overflow box?
and on ur sump. cpr drills 3 holes in the side. did you seal those or leave them open? this has always been a curious question i nmy head


----------



## sjb1987

did you come up with a background plant for the back right?


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> question
> do you have the lid on your overflow box?
> and on ur sump. cpr drills 3 holes in the side. did you seal those or leave them open? this has always been a curious question i nmy head


Yes.
Sealed.

Now you can die happy


----------



## plantbrain

sjb1987 said:


> did you come up with a background plant for the back right?


Yes, but I have to go get it, it's about 2 hours away in a cold lake.
There's 3-4 species I can chose from, but the large leaf pondweed is the better plant. 

_P. ampifolius.
_
It's about 6" wide. But only 1-1.5" lateral width. Sort of the pondweed alternative version of _E. Azurea_ which is a noxious illegal weed in the USA.
I'm the only one that's ever grown it and posted pics in the USA, or anywhere that I know of.

The other nice plant is _P richardsonii_. There's a few others, I can get those in Lake Tahoe which is 90 minutes from me. Still a tad cold without a 7 mm wetsuit. They also really do not start to grow well till later in the summer being at 6000-7000ft.

The giant pondweed has the best contrast and is the easiest ti keep, they also have the native _P. perfolius_ in Tahoe, I've seen gorgeous beds of all 3 of these(not in the same spot/Lake).


----------



## plantbrain

Such hideous places to collect aquatic plants:


----------



## horsedude

last picture is an absolute stunner where about is it???


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

yes i truly will die happy now!

and that looks like one heck of an ugly place, how can you possibly think of collecting there? :wink:


----------



## plantbrain

horsedude said:


> last picture is an absolute stunner where about is it???


Mt Lassen National park, northern California. You cannot collect anything there other than photo's, but outside the park in streams, there's the same plants. South about 100 miles, all the same species live in several lakes also.

The alpine region of California has the most aquatic plant species, not the warmer or coastal areas.


----------



## plantbrain

the Erio parkeri need some time to fatten up and adapt, I mowed the L senegalensis and replanted the tops in the bare rear corner, this would do well as a contrast in and of itself.

I'll still get a couple of different pondweeds and add them in the back corner, but I may modify the shape of each of the groups to do this.

Monte Carlo is really looking nice, as you can tell by my trim method, which I seem to be the only person I've ever witness do this technique..........

I cut a 1-2" sod in the front, then the plant cascades down to the front edge nicely like this. Other foreground plants do this and it does not look tacky with the foreground plant all pressed up against the glass. I've never liked that look. I think this method looks far better and merely requires some easy to do pruning methods. You also get a nice sod to sell and recovery is fairly quick.

"Mini" A. renieckii is doing better than I'd anticipated. I'll have more to sell in a week or so. It'll get taller, but if you trim it once every 1-2 months, it'll stay fairly nice and short.

UG is at that threshold from looking crappy to where it'll look like a nice thick consistent mat. In 1-2 weeks, it'll be looking pretty good again. R macrandra has survived the high current and many repeated aggressive trimmings.


----------



## freph

Beautiful trimming method for the Monte Carlo foreground. I should try this on HC.... :icon_idea

Also, I want chained loaches now. Yours look so nice.


----------



## oldpunk78

*Re: 120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style with lots of color instead*

That pic from lassen makes me want to drive up there. I haven't been in a while.

This tank is an inspiration, Tom. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## blazeyreef

plantbrain said:


> Mt Lassen National park, northern California. You cannot collect anything there other than photo's, but outside the park in streams, there's the same plants. South about 100 miles, all the same species live in several lakes also.
> 
> The alpine region of California has the most aquatic plant species, not the warmer or coastal areas.


do you live in the area?? I used to live in RedBluff and have hiked the peak of that volcano. Pretty sweet. What plant species did you collect in the area???


----------



## plantbrain

freph said:


> Beautiful trimming method for the Monte Carlo foreground. I should try this on HC.... :icon_idea
> 
> Also, I want chained loaches now. Yours look so nice.


The method does very well with HC and Gloss.

You can keep progressing back for each sod slice and it'll give a wavy look to the mat, but.....it'll never be bare and ugly.


----------



## plantbrain

oldpunk78 said:


> That pic from lassen makes me want to drive up there. I haven't been in a while.
> 
> This tank is an inspiration, Tom.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2


You are only an hour or less away.
Not sure if the loop is open yet, but you can look on the web site, good place to escape the heat and smell some sulfur


----------



## plantbrain

blazeyreef said:


> do you live in the area?? I used to live in RedBluff and have hiked the peak of that volcano. Pretty sweet. What plant species did you collect in the area???


We found perhaps a dozen + species, fairly common to alpine CA aquatic Flora.
I'm about 2.5 hours away or so. I'm closer to the Tahoe region.


----------



## freph

plantbrain said:


> The method does very well with HC and Gloss.
> 
> You can keep progressing back for each sod slice and it'll give a wavy look to the mat, but.....it'll never be bare and ugly.


I'm slightly confused by this so I just wanted to confirm.

Do you mean that instead of mowing it down to the ground and having the barren look you just move through the carpet from front to back, sod a strip out and let the carpet cascade over the empty parts? May be a revolutionary trimming method here. Doesn't seem like something to do for OCD folks who want a perfectly flat or "natural" (flatten then let different stems have their own growth rates for a more wild look, kinda what I do in the mini since it's intertwined with hairgrass) look but it is certainly a wonderful method to use, especially at the edges of the carpet.


----------



## plantbrain

freph said:


> I'm slightly confused by this so I just wanted to confirm.
> 
> Do you mean that instead of mowing it down to the ground and having the barren look you just move through the carpet from front to back, sod a strip out and let the carpet cascade over the empty parts? May be a revolutionary trimming method here. Doesn't seem like something to do for OCD folks who want a perfectly flat or "natural" (flatten then let different stems have their own growth rates for a more wild look, kinda what I do in the mini since it's intertwined with hairgrass) look but it is certainly a wonderful method to use, especially at the edges of the carpet.


Yep, a slice every 3-4 weeks will do.
The most noticeable slice is the front, the middle and rear slices, you hardly see. A plastic paint scraper cuts a nice neat sod.

You start in the front and work your way to the rear.

Simple.
Effective
Not too ugly, recovery is nice.
Fish do not destroy the barren area.

A few detractions: the growth is not even after a few trims, but the growth after the front sod trim is, and the older rear growth will look more like a waterfall of cascading plants.


----------



## chew

Do most of those plants transition well into tropical temperature aquariums? Or is it mostly for your work? Would love to go pick some up next time I'm in Kirkwood if there is any


----------



## peachii

Your tank is an inspiration for someone as new as I am to the hobby.

Thank you for the hours and hours I have been reading this journal and all the useful information contained within. I know now the name of some plants that I would love to eventually be able to get into my tanks. 

Absolutely beautiful. Thank you.


----------



## plantbrain

chew said:


> Do most of those plants transition well into tropical temperature aquariums? Or is it mostly for your work? Would love to go pick some up next time I'm in Kirkwood if there is any


Not sure if there's any in say like Silver or Caples, you need smaller, shallow natural lakes that have some wetlands around them.


----------



## Black Hills Tj

Envious.

Just thought I would let you know, Tom. That after a year or so hiatus from planted aquariums due to dabbling in saltwater a bit, you are a key part of the monster that is driving me back into planted aquaria. I'll be honest...I missed the green stuff! I wasn't totally out, but my planted tanks were being neglected to say the least. I have some making up to do!

Thanks and excellent work as always.


----------



## plantbrain

Black Hills Tj said:


> Envious.
> 
> Just thought I would let you know, Tom. That after a year or so hiatus from planted aquariums due to dabbling in saltwater a bit, you are a key part of the monster that is driving me back into planted aquaria. I'll be honest...I missed the green stuff! I wasn't totally out, but my planted tanks were being neglected to say the least. I have some making up to do!
> 
> Thanks and excellent work as always.


Well, you can grow marine macro algae and prune and garden a fair amount there, and have the tank linked to the reef also, a side by side tank would be interesting and likely what I have planned once I move, it'll be a mangrove forest, then a macro algae/seagrass and then the reef, all linked.

Freshwater will be similar. Headwaters to the delta.

Well, that is the plan anyway


----------



## sjb1987

Did you make that trip to get the pond weed...curious to see how it turns out in the rear corner..is it a type that will grow straight up or does it want to lean in stronger lighting?


----------



## plantbrain

sjb1987 said:


> Did you make that trip to get the pond weed...curious to see how it turns out in the rear corner..is it a type that will grow straight up or does it want to lean in stronger lighting?


I've only grown it a couple of times but it got too large for what I had planned.
I've not grown the rare species, but would like to introduce it to the hobby as such plants can become very common and wide spread, and reintroductions can be done if there are many hobbyist can easily grow in it culture. 

If no one can grow a rare plant, that presents a real problem for managers. 
I re vamped the elevation and rows thus far and will keep doing this over the next week or two.

I added the Erios you sent me and will add more if possible.

Other plant selection changes are afoot.


----------



## iter

Tom,

Since you have high amounts of CO2 in the water column and have a overflow, isn't there a rapid pH change in the water? Doesn't the sump system allow gas exchange to be more efficient, meaning the degassing of CO2 would cause a huge pH swing when the CO2 is turned off or on?

If there is a such a pH swing, how does your inhabitants cope with it?


----------



## plantbrain

A day or two after a lot of reworking.

I trimmed and replanted some of the UG.
Added all new divider wood slats.
Re tied the and expanded the Mini pellia covered branches.
Trimmed the background plants back a lot.
I'll likely swap the Ludwigia senegalensis and the Alternanthera mini. 
The long Downoi row will look nice in a few weeks. 

The old Ludwigia red is no longer in this aquarium, the plant in the middle is the Much rarer "pink ovalis".



Where the L senegalensis is now, that was where the pantanal was prior, it's a PITA spot to trim because of the wood over head. 
It also takes the full brunt of the current if I let things over grow, then I'll get algae on the plants at that spot.
You will note the return is now white and has a larger outflow, instead of the older 3/4" PVC, I went to a loc Line, which bis about 40% smaller than the 3/4" PVC, now this is a 3/4 to 1" elbow and this produces a nicer current, lower pressure and wider dispersion.

I'm going to see how a 1 and 1/4" and 1.5" elbow return works, then have one made out pyrex/kimax glass.


----------



## plantbrain

iter said:


> Tom,
> 
> Since you have high amounts of CO2 in the water column and have a overflow, isn't there a rapid pH change in the water? Doesn't the sump system allow gas exchange to be more efficient, meaning the degassing of CO2 would cause a huge pH swing when the CO2 is turned off or on?
> 
> If there is a such a pH swing, how does your inhabitants cope with it?


99% of planted tanks using CO2 have a large pH change because it's added during the DAY/light cycle. We do not need CO2 at night for any reason.
Which is 2/3rds of the 24 hour cycle.........

I have long had 1 to 1.4 pH unit drop in pH daily, about as long as I have been using CO2, this happens daily in all my tanks using CO2, most people's tanks for that matter.

CO2 addition, not pH, is the goal.
pH is just one part of an indirect method to measure CO2. 


The sump/wet/dry is sealed, so there's no CO2 loss there, but you do get added O2 still. Over flows can be modified a few different ways to eliminate both noise and degassing.

Fish have no issues issue with the pH, that does not matter, CO2 is not a salt, it adds little/nothing to the TDS. 

Too much CO2=> respiration issues.
Too little CO2=> algae and plant growth issues.
CO2 does not affect the KH.

So fish are quite fine and I've bred dozens of species in my tanks, and plenty of folks have seen the fry and fish I've had and sold.
All my Sturisomas are F1's for example. Breed discus also and other so called hard species, mostly rare plecos etc. And I have very high shrimp production rates.
If they are breeding well, better than most other scaped planted tanks(which seldom have much fish, larger rare species etc, much less for long time frames), I can assume there's little issue.

Some folks still question whether it's still stressful for some weird reason. But if this was a fish only tank without plants/CO2 etc, we would never hear that same type of questioning. 
Beliefs and skepticism should be consistent, if not, fix and change them


----------



## sjb1987

Great update... wow that monte carlo really mounds up


----------



## freph

Beautiful Monte Carlo mound. Think we can get a close up of that bad boy? Mine's growing very well now that it's established itself. There's some bits of spiro in it that I need to eliminate, though... Doing CO2 now via fractionating impeller. Trying to get a hang of what I need to add. I'm not sure how much of it is just getting blasted into smithereens and how much is visible as micro bubbles.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## plantbrain

Those bright grey things, are rocks BTW, used to hold the wood down till it sinks well on its own.


----------



## jccaclimber

plantbrain said:


> The sump/wet/dry is sealed, so there's no CO2 loss there, but you do get added O2 still.


Tom,
Please explain this to me in a bit more detail, I'm not following. If there is nowhere for CO2 to get out, how/where is O2 getting in?


----------



## exv152

The tank looks awesome, especially the elatine hydropiper(?). What method are you using to inject co2 into the sealed sump, is it a needle wheel pump? And what's the small dosing pump on top of your rainbow plastic lifeguard for, if you're dosing dry ferts?


----------



## planty

plantbrain said:


> It also takes the full brunt of the current if I let things over grow, then I'll get algae on the plants at that spot.


Hi Tom,
What kind of algae do you see in that area?
Do you know why it happens in that spot?

Thanks,
Planty.


----------



## plantbrain

I am going to go back to some older plant species I had prior as they make a better contrast statement.
Likely R. wallichii and Ludwigia perunesis. Will tidy up the Tonia and make a "L" shaped row instead of a triangle wedge.
Will add 2-3 more Erios to match the downoi on the right side.
Need to hack the Monte Carlo back in a huge way. 
This will be done this coming week. I will do a few smaller wood changes in the front array.


----------



## Ach1Ll3sH33L

Your inbox must be flooded with dibs on that monte carlo when you sell it! 

Tanks looking good as always! I like the revised plant layout.


----------



## freph

Ach1Ll3sH33L said:


> Your inbox must be flooded with dibs on that monte carlo when you sell it!
> 
> Tanks looking good as always! I like the revised plant layout.


I'll vouch for the quality of that stuff too. It's quite wonderful. Very plentiful, too.


----------



## plantbrain

Going to do a trim today. Change the Tonia and the hack the Monte Carlo.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Heya Tom, 

Looking good! What the heck's Monte Carlo? Are we now giving plants stupid names like the reefers give their neonsuperlemonadeorangecrush zooanthids?

My real question is what overflow are you using and where'd you get it?


----------



## Plantnerd

Monte Carlo is a form of Micranthemum, and it is pretty cool. Got a nice foreground carpet in my low light tank.
Something i thought wasnt possible


----------



## plantbrain

Phil Edwards said:


> Heya Tom,
> 
> Looking good! What the heck's Monte Carlo? Are we now giving plants stupid names like the reefers give their neonsuperlemonadeorangecrush zooanthids?
> 
> My real question is what overflow are you using and where'd you get it?


CPR, I modded it and added an extra bulkhead and drain pipe to make it a semi bean animal overflow, since you like funky names and all. 

This reduces noise and drives one of the drains full blast while only a trickle goes down the other, this reduces the degassing.


----------



## stonevs

My favorite tank on this forum by far. Beautiful!


----------



## plantbrain

stonevs said:


> My favorite tank on this forum by far. Beautiful!


It's an on going evolution. I will be making more changes this week, Tues most likely.


----------



## Bserve

Tom, just wondering, is this thread the most popular in TPT history?


----------



## Phil Edwards

How many gph are you pushing now? What size is that outlet? Are you running two or three downdrafts. I saw that beananimal was adamant about using 3, but I'm skeptical...and since I've only got 2 holes in the tank I'm curious.


----------



## stonevs

What kind of substrate do you have?


----------



## plantbrain

stonevs said:


> What kind of substrate do you have?


ADA aqua soil.


----------



## Rion

Bserve said:


> Tom, just wondering, is this thread the most popular in TPT history?


This is the 3rd most viewed thread on TPT. But probably the most popular thread that's still running.

Tom, have you had problems with your substrate breaking down or it lacking nutrients with it running for so long? I don't remember if you've replaced any or what you use for a root fertilizer.


----------



## plantbrain

Rion said:


> This is the 3rd most viewed thread on TPT. But probably the most popular thread that's still running.
> 
> Tom, have you had problems with your substrate breaking down or it lacking nutrients with it running for so long? I don't remember if you've replaced any or what you use for a root fertilizer.


No and no.


----------



## plantbrain

Made some changes, like about 1 hour ago.
Water is still pretty cloudy after the rework.
Added some different wood slats to border the plant groups.

Added the red pantanal weed back, at least for now till I figure what else to do with it or find a new plant to take it's place.

The wood, I'm much happier with. the MC really got going and was over takign the front, so I sold most of it and replanted the new sprigs and it a month or so, I'll have a nice lawn again.
Repositioned Erios.

You can see the difference in the Downoi from a couple of weeks ago, lots of new growth.
Removed the Ech. agustafolia variety vesuvius.

Tank is pretty close to where I'd like it to be once a few of the groups grow back in, UG, MC, some of the back ground plants. I might add some more Mini pellia on wood here and there.
I can alwlays swap the mini reineckii for the R macrandra also.

The new pink ovalis Ludwigia is a nicer plant than the old Ludwigia red. It grows slower and denser than the red type. Not really pink however.
I may add the pennywort in the Right front corner or a mini Riccia or something.


----------



## plantbrain

Oh yea, I forgot to mention this:

Scaping, this is reverse from nature style actually.

I chose the plants.............. then added and changed the hard scape to suit the plant species I wanted.
Most tanks and nature style does the hardscape 1st, then chooses the plant species afterwards to accent the hardscape. 
They might chose a foreground type plant, but the species is often not always known.

If you chose the plant species 1st, then I think this would be closer to the dutch style and approach., which is to highlight the plant species that interest you.
To a lesser degree, the hardscape. It's a different emphasis and approach.

However, the wood and positioning is far far from a simplistic thing. You can go very simple in either case, or go to the really sophisticated. 
Still takes a lot of work and thought to make it look good in both areas. One is not superior to the other, they just have different areas/goals/emphasis. 
It's also a long term garden for me, many of the REAL Japanese landscape gardens are old, very very old..............they are not these short lived tanks many scapers often do for 6-18 month time frames.
If you cannot maintain the garden indefinitely.................without breaking the tank down, then you are not really focused on Japanese gardening. There is a very strong emphasis on long term care. Imagine if these tanks were bonsai trees? 
These gardens also require a lot of manual care, no whining about water changes and cleaning the tank/filters on a very regular basis. You put in a lot, but....you get a lot out, regardless of the style.


----------



## sjb1987

Lookin great...this is my favorite look so far... whats the difference between red pantanal and pantanal


----------



## plantbrain

Some plants need to grow out some more yet, and then a clean tank for 2-3 days without me making a mess.

The Erios I got from you have fattened up quite well.

The UG is on the march and the MC will grow into a nicer thinner lawn in about 1 month or thereabouts. Some of the back ground plants will climb up and then the Tonina will get another trim along with the red pantanl/Red mac.

Most other things will be pretty stable otherwise.


----------



## FlyingHellFish

yo tom, you use RO in that tank? Or any of your tanks? What yours

PH
KH
GH

Any idea what determine leaf size? I'm getting different size leaf within the same tank, no idea what happening. How does a person get compact growth, shorter internode and uniform shape.

Also, I see you have some plants that like soft water, how do you keep both soft and hard water plants happy in the same tank?


----------



## pandacory

I really like how this tank continues to evolve, but seems to have a kind of core character that always shines through.

It's like watching someone grow up.

I have been keeping a spreadsheet with notes from this tank for use when I am ready to try my hand at an intensive gardening effort. I really hope all of the interesting species that you have cycled through here will continue to be available in The Planted Tank community.

I don't see it in my notes anywhere, but what are your thoughts on flow? is there a turnover rate, or plant movement that you target? The pics seem to stand perfectly erect as if it is very calm.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Tom,

Would you please post detailed pics of your overflow and tell us how you implemented the beananimal design in the tank?

Thanks,
Phil


----------



## plantbrain

FlyingHellFish said:


> yo tom, you use RO in that tank? Or any of your tanks? What yours
> 
> PH
> KH
> GH
> 
> Any idea what determine leaf size? I'm getting different size leaf within the same tank, no idea what happening. How does a person get compact growth, shorter internode and uniform shape.
> 
> Also, I see you have some plants that like soft water, how do you keep both soft and hard water plants happy in the same tank?


I virtually never use RO and just deal with whatever tap I have, that said, I have awesome tap where I now live, but I've lived in many places with a wide range of tap.

pH- sort of depends, I use CO2 after all.
KH is about 18-20 ppm to maybe 35-38 ppm depending on the season.
GH is about 2, I add about 1 table spoon or so per 90 Gal of GH booster.
There is no such thing as a hardwater preference for planted tanks, this is a myth.

There's a few that are demanding more of lower KH's, but only a few, mostly Rotala, s and Ludwigias, maybe a a few others, but not that many. CO2, not soft or hard, that's what the plants are after generally.


----------



## plantbrain

pandacory said:


> I really like how this tank continues to evolve, but seems to have a kind of core character that always shines through.
> 
> It's like watching someone grow up.
> 
> I have been keeping a spreadsheet with notes from this tank for use when I am ready to try my hand at an intensive gardening effort. I really hope all of the interesting species that you have cycled through here will continue to be available in The Planted Tank community.
> 
> I don't see it in my notes anywhere, but what are your thoughts on flow? is there a turnover rate, or plant movement that you target? The pics seem to stand perfectly erect as if it is very calm.


Flow is a pesky thing.

It can lead to hair algae with no changes to th water quality, but as plants grow and alter current, this can lead to issues.

But, I uproot and mess around in this tank, replant often etc, so that plays some role in any algae, these are minor issues and easily corrected, but noted. I just do a water change after to avoid any of that. When I do not, or let things go too long, only then does algae let me know.

Some tanks are more resistant, but I do not uproot and the stems do not block the flow in such a shallow tank, it's only 18" tall, so 4-6" of growth really changes things.

I use a wide mouth 1" elbow.

I'll switch soon to a modular glass ware idea/design I have planned.
Easy to clean and add to any existing system.

You want much like reefs, high low pressure flow, not a high pressure blast.


----------



## plantbrain

Phil Edwards said:


> Tom,
> 
> Would you please post detailed pics of your overflow and tell us how you implemented the beananimal design in the tank?
> 
> Thanks,
> Phil


I added another stand pipe and bulk head and drain pipe into the sump.
Drilled and did it in about 25 minutes.

One standpipe is about 3/4" tall than the other, I use 1" strainers and then a prefilter sponge on them.

I could have added a 3rd overflow and pipe to the sump as well, but no need, since the 1# pipe is full bore flow, then the 2# pipe is barely trickling. so 2# acts as the emergency overflow. I do not need ball or gate valves to adjust the flow this way. This works if the 1# pipe alone is close to your full flow for the return pump. I size the return pumps accordingly rather than ball valving them and reducing their flow. I do not like to waste the energy and flow.

Simplifies things also.


----------



## plantbrain

I'll make a few tweaks with the wood in the front area, but not much.

I always have a lot of nice manzy laying around as I sell and the stock list changes, so I nab a piece here or there and see if I can work in a really nice or cool piece.

This most often DOES NOT WORK, ironically, the smaller plain pieces work the best.


----------



## Phil Edwards

If your #1 downdraft was already handling the full flow from your pump how did you manage to get #2 to trickle without checking the flow on #1?


----------



## plantbrain

Phil Edwards said:


> If your #1 downdraft was already handling the full flow from your pump how did you manage to get #2 to trickle without checking the flow on #1?


One drain is slightly higher than the other.

So water goes down pipe #1, and any backup trickles down #2.

A 300 Gallon tank like yours should not require more than a single 1.5" pipe, I have a 350 Gal I deal with and it has a 1.5" pipe, a big sucker. 
A Little Giant - 4-MDQX-SC is quiet and enough flow.

Roughly 1000gph, but then I added another mech line (cartridge filter) independent that uses another 750 Gallons, but this is not linked to the overflow.


You can also go this route, or add a Vortech. I use to have one on this tank, but I removed it long ago, no need. 6ft or longer tanks, I prefer it.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## FlyingHellFish

What your opinion on other well known Aquascaper, like - 

Oliver Knott
George Farmer
Mark Evans
Viktor Lantos 

Do you guys play poker tuesdays of every month?

Oh and forgot to ask, for plants that you can't trim and require replanting; how do you do it in Aquasoil? Do you just cut the top and pull out the bottom? What about the roots? Wouldn't it push up a lot of soil and dirty the tank? How do you guys do it?


----------



## mr.bigglesworth

Dear PlantBrain,

Please help me out on how you get those intense reds on your stem plants?
(if you use t5) What t5 bulbs do you use?
(if you use led) what led's do you use?
Any tips/pointers, do you have over 100 par? Dose any special fertz? Do you use photoshop or any image modification services that would amplify the red intensity on stem plants?


----------



## FlyingHellFish

mr.bigglesworth said:


> Dear PlantBrain,
> 
> Please help me out on how you get those intense reds on your stem plants?
> (if you use t5) What t5 bulbs do you use?
> (if you use led) what led's do you use?
> Any tips/pointers, do you have over 100 par? Dose any special fertz? Do you use photoshop or any image modification services that would amplify the red intensity on stem plants?


^ Use an iPhone 4 to take pic, no need to touch up anything. :red_mouth


----------



## plantbrain

FlyingHellFish said:


> What your opinion on other well known Aquascaper, like -
> 
> Oliver Knott
> George Farmer
> Mark Evans
> Viktor Lantos
> 
> Do you guys play poker tuesdays of every month?
> 
> Oh and forgot to ask, for plants that you can't trim and require replanting; how do you do it in Aquasoil? Do you just cut the top and pull out the bottom? What about the roots? Wouldn't it push up a lot of soil and dirty the tank? How do you guys do it?


No, I know them, some better than others, I've talked to Oliver a few times, but really do not know him, seems to like to break the rules and push the limits with scaping concepts, which I like. The others I know a bit better but they are "young" in terms of scaping, this is no insult, they will only get better with time. Oliver, myself, Amano and many others have been doing this for decades. We also have access to some larger tanks and nicer hardscaping materials. Perhaps we should be much better? My emphasis has long been more larger questions and the Science behind much of this, and helping people on line. I got my college degrees because of aquatic plants. 

But eventually I have come around and decided to garden more. I'm less interested in copying styles, more interested in doing something different.

With ADA AS, I just pull the plant up and trim it, then replant the nice tops. Sometimes I'll trim like a hedge, top etc. By fluffing the soil every so often, this removes the dusty mulm, and it can be vacuumed off.


----------



## plantbrain

mr.bigglesworth said:


> Dear PlantBrain,
> 
> Please help me out on how you get those intense reds on your stem plants?
> (if you use t5) What t5 bulbs do you use?
> (if you use led) what led's do you use?
> Any tips/pointers, do you have over 100 par? Dose any special fertz? Do you use photoshop or any image modification services that would amplify the red intensity on stem plants?


T5's, mostly Aquawave red wave and the sunwave, Zoo med flora and the ultra(sort of the same things, but different brands), a URI red sun, the ATI blue specials, maybe a colorlife colormax and a giesemann aquaflora. With 8 bulbs, you can really alter the look and color combinations.

With a lot of red light, this also reflects, guess what? Red color.
But too much looks weird. So some blue and white is needed.

Don't like LED's for plants really, at least not at this scale of tank. 
Not yet.

I run about 120-140 umols at the sediment, 600-700 at the water surface. 

I'll crop some and maybe lower the brightness some, resize obviously, pretty basic generic modifications on image software. You'll see a weird magenta look if someone uses too much hue or other color modifications. Another give away if how dark the posted picture is, I see pics of red plants, but the rest of the tank is dark.........

Really bright light will wash out many colors also, add a lot of CO2 mist and pearling etc......you really lose clarity and color.


----------



## keats

Tom-

What is that gadget on top of your plumbing on the right side of the tank?


----------



## plantbrain

keats said:


> Tom-
> 
> What is that gadget on top of your plumbing on the right side of the tank?


pH meter, reads 5.97.

Runs about 7.20-7.28 at night.

My 180 runs the same night pH, but drops to 5.72 to 5.87.


----------



## pandacory

Am I reading your statement correctly? Do you not have confidence in current commercial led fixtures to match the results you are achieving here?

Pictures are one thing, but I'm sure you've seen many more high end builds and results in person than many of us will ever see, myself included. Admittedly, most of the tanks I admire for plant growth use flourescents and mh to a lesser extent. Many of the tanks I admire for features lean toward led. I am not sure if this is just people who have been in the hobby longer than led had been viable using what they know works, or if they know leds don't work as well.

Are there any commercial units you do have confidence in?


----------



## plantbrain

pandacory said:


> Am I reading your statement correctly? Do you not have confidence in current commercial led fixtures to match the results you are achieving here?
> 
> Pictures are one thing, but I'm sure you've seen many more high end builds and results in person than many of us will ever see, myself included. Admittedly, most of the tanks I admire for plant growth use flourescents and mh to a lesser extent. Many of the tanks I admire for features lean toward led. I am not sure if this is just people who have been in the hobby longer than led had been viable using what they know works, or if they know leds don't work as well.
> 
> Are there any commercial units you do have confidence in?


I cannot really say.

The LED's I've made and used did not provide good light spread, color for most of the plants, I quickly returned to T5's.

Energy wise, the LED's were no different to a top line ATI. Kill A Watt showed that per unit of umol/area, they are about equal. I used the Cree 3 w lights, but have various colors to adjust and try out to see if they could provide a decent color and a decent growth.

In order to get good even spread, I needed a lot of Cree 3 w lights. Now when that cost and the look of the tank hood is factored in, now we are talking say 600-800$ vs say 1500-2000$. Will they work? Sure, but will they produce nice colors and all? I'm not so certain. 

Some of the smaller LED's with many smaller light points seem to do well. 
ADA's Chinese LED and the Finnex and Current seem to do well for many.

For larger tanks? I think you end up needing a lot of them and the larger 3 W, etc, you can get better spread by raising them up higher, but then you lose intensity, so there's a trade off. T5's? You do not have this trade off much. 

MH's have a point source also, but a nice reflector takes care of this and they have good spread, LED's are not designed to spread light, they are designed to pinpoint it. If you use the optix, then this spreads it out, but the trade off is much less intensity. 

I'll personally wait a while before buying any. 
It's not that I do not like to test and experiment, or use techy lighting and all, it's just I see a large cost difference and trade off at this point in time still. Maybe later.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Hey Tom, wanna try this new plant I have, Elatine minima?


----------



## bigstick120

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Hey Tom, wanna try this new plant I have, Elatine minima?


Are you growing it or did you just collect it? I didnt have much luck with this one long term.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Hey Tom, wanna try this new plant I have, Elatine minima?


Have any examples of it growing well?

E. hydropiper does excellent for me etc, but the issue I have is fish pulling up the Elatines.

The one plant I've been after for many years is P americana, a nice grass like fern.


----------



## tropicalmackdaddy

plantbrain said:


> Have any examples of it growing well?
> 
> E. hydropiper does excellent for me etc, but the issue I have is fish pulling up the Elatines.
> 
> The one plant I've been after for many years is P americana, a nice grass like fern.


P americana sounded interesting so I googled it and the only thing I could find on it was a species of cockroach and a species of American plum tree :icon_conf
You have any sources of the plant?


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

plantbrain said:


> Have any examples of it growing well?
> 
> E. hydropiper does excellent for me etc, but the issue I have is fish pulling up the Elatines.
> 
> The one plant I've been after for many years is P americana, a nice grass like fern.


Well, bigstick seemed to grow it well, but now he just said he lost it. I wanted to see if you could grow it, because if you can't, no one can.


----------



## bigstick120

Its not an easy one to grow, this is what you have correct,
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/new-plants-planted-aquariums/58208-elatine-minima.html

I assume seeing your location that you collected it. I had it about 5 years ago, think the photo in that post is dated, grew well for a little while, I was even able to spread a little around, then out of the blue, gone!



ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Well, bigstick seemed to grow it well, but now he just said he lost it. I wanted to see if you could grow it, because if you can't, no one can.


----------



## plantbrain

Looks a bit like E. rubella, a native we have in Lake Tahoe, does not do well in aquariums, too warm.


Pillwort is another name for Pilularia americana

http://www.google.com/search?q=Pilu...a:en-US:official&sa=X&spell=1&ved=0CCoQvwUoAA


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Well, I found it fully submerged and growing well. Also, the water was pretty warm, low 70s probably.


----------



## nashgill

Thank you Tom, for taking the time to share all this. It's been a great read, and I've learned a ton.


----------



## plantbrain

I also have a Gratiola to collect as well and see how it does out here locally.
I will head up and get the rare pondweeds sometime around Labor day.

Have to do that during the late summer, the others, during April.
Aquatic plants here tend to be very seasonal.


----------



## Ach1Ll3sH33L

2 questions for you tom if you have time,
When you set up the bean animal for the sump, did you run all 3 overflow lines into the sealed filter box, or 2 lines to the sealed filter section and the 3rd emergency drain pipe to the pump side of the sump? I drilled out my cs-50 overflow box to use two siphons like the bean animal style, i would imagine a 3rd open hole to the filter box would allow co2 to escape. 

Also, i was wondering if you ever tested using very little surface movement in the aquarium and not sealing the filter side of the sump. So theoretically, keeping as much co2 in the aquarium as possible, and not letting it degas to much until it hits the sump. I tried this with good results, but im curios the effect on o2 levels in the tank, and i don't have the equipment to test that.


----------



## plantbrain

You can see the Monte Carlo regrowing well. Mowed the Red Pantanal, need to mow the Red macrandra. Likely need to replant the Downoi and pack it in good.

There's a few Botia out roaming around.


----------



## jpappy789

Super cool!

It's weird, I look at the pics of a more top view and I think everything looks almost _too_ perfect, too compartmentalized...and then I see it from a different angle and it blows me away.


----------



## dkreef

stunning!


----------



## plantbrain

jpappy789 said:


> Super cool!
> 
> It's weird, I look at the pics of a more top view and I think everything looks almost _too_ perfect, too compartmentalized...and then I see it from a different angle and it blows me away.


Well, you have a few views to trim to basically, so it's not the flat FTS only with this or any of the other tanks really, that's pretty boring to tell the truth, and I'm not out to get the FTS for a winning a content etc, I just really do not care that much about that sort of thing. Some do.

If the tank was say 24" tall and maybe 36-40" front to back, then you'd have some real fun, but you'd need to be able to access both sides of the tank.
30" is a bit of stretch as it is.


----------



## waterfaller1

Wow..that is all..thank you!:icon_bigg


----------



## jpappy789

plantbrain said:


> Well, you have a few views to trim to basically, so it's not the flat FTS only with this or any of the other tanks really, that's pretty boring to tell the truth, and I'm not out to get the FTS for a winning a content etc, I just really do not care that much about that sort of thing. Some do.
> 
> If the tank was say 24" tall and maybe 36-40" front to back, then you'd have some real fun, but you'd need to be able to access both sides of the tank.
> 30" is a bit of stretch as it is.


And that's why you're a much better scaper then I am roud:


----------



## plantbrain

I did a fair amount of trimming today, so all the questions about why is it hazy, you try doing this with ADA AS and tell me how things look a couple of hours later. I know many will not read where I've stated this and posted it prior(too many post), so here's another reminder.

The Red mac looks nice after a good trim though.
Note the MC growing in pretty fast.
I hacked the mini butterfly in the back section, I may pull that plant into a row spot at some point.


----------



## BHolmes

Do you have any tips to grow the rotala macrandra so well? I've read it's quite a challenge


----------



## !shadow!

Those sexy reflectors never get old


----------



## HybridHerp

Tom, remind me, what plant is it you have inbetween the pink ludwigia and the macrandra?


----------



## Bserve

Tom, can you provide any older threads of yours?


----------



## plantbrain

BHolmes said:


> Do you have any tips to grow the rotala macrandra so well? I've read it's quite a challenge


Same as any other plant; light, CO2, ferts, good care generally, water changes, trimming it etc.

It's very weedy in this tank, it does like lower KH's.
A number of species do, but many do not care.


----------



## plantbrain

!shadow! said:


> Those sexy reflectors never get old


Sexy is one thing, but they direct the light downwards, not outward as much as the Tek do/did. Big difference, 50% more light, better cooling etc. Big cost difference also, but you get what you pay for.

I removed some Tek and replaced with the ATI on a client's tank and after a couple of weeks, dramatic differences, better colors, yada yada yada.

Everybody is happy.


----------



## plantbrain

HybridHerp said:


> Tom, remind me, what plant is it you have inbetween the pink ludwigia and the macrandra?


Erio cinerum(spiky looking thing) and Mini pellia(on wood) and then Micrantherum variety "monte carlo"(foreground).


----------



## teddo10

Please enlighten the noob i am: what is that hang-on filter like thingie i keep seeing on tanks?


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Did you say if you wanted the minima Tom?


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Did you say if you wanted the minima Tom?


Elatine minima? No, I have plenty of E hydropiper and it's more a thing with fish uprooting than anything in this tank.

HC does okay, but........


----------



## plantbrain

A few more trims and another 2 weeks or so, it'll be looking decent. the MC will grow in pretty nicely by then, but not piled too much on itself.
I figured out a few ways to beat the UG back without having to trim it.
Red pantanal(likely 2 more times or more in the next 2 weeks) and the Tonina need trimmed. Red mac also next week sometime. 
Background plants are starting to bounce back nicely after the last trim.

Top view:



























This is a pic right before the dimmer controller turns off the lights, you can see the Botia swimming. 
I really like that function on the ATI lights. 





Couch view. Note the difference in the downoi's growth if you scroll back three weeks ago.


----------



## lamiskool

Im allways awestruck when looking at this tank...


----------



## plantbrain

Groups are starting to come together nicely. Was away for 3 days and came back and maybe another couple of weeks, it'll look pretty nice.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## thelub

Fantastic as always.

I bet that's what it looks like all the time right? :hihi:


----------



## plantbrain

thelub said:


> Fantastic as always.
> 
> I bet that's what it looks like all the time right? :hihi:


Well, you can mull through the various pics, which are about 1-2 weeks apart mostly and see for yourself.

Only 30+ pages to view


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


>


What I love most about this tank is it's uniqueness. I have never seen this cross type aquascaping before. Somewhat dutch but with a little of this and that. Added with some of the best gardening I've seen week after week...... This tank is just awesome! Most do not know how difficult it is to not only understand how to trim all of these plants, but also when to trim them so they grow together. 

I liked this tank best in the beginning, but with the above picture, it's just getting into it's prime.


----------



## plantbrain

I am okay with the green plants, but I'll need to add more color like the Right side to balance things.
I might bring back the Ludwigia red, remove the Pink Ovalis. 

I might try it in the rear and move the Rotala mini butter fly to the spot where the A reineckii mini is now. I like that plant, but it's just not as contrasting as the other species. 
It's nice also because it is a very easy plant to manage. 

Need more color and contrast on the left side now.
I'll add the H, sibthorpides in the right corner again. That will balance the right side well.
The Red Ludwigia which has been in the middle red section for sometime will return. 
The A reneckii mini is the only one I'm really wondering about.


----------



## synaethetic

Very impressive update. The right side does indeed look the best it has to date, in my opinion.


----------



## xmas_one

Always impressed with this tank. Tom, what bulbs are you currently using?


----------



## plantbrain

synaethetic said:


> Very impressive update. The right side does indeed look the best it has to date, in my opinion.


Well, it's not bad, but it's seen better days also. It's up to snuff. 
The pink ovalis was just hacked to the bone, not uprooted and replanted, so it looks scraggy.

The MC will grow in more, it' a consistent plant and will make a very bright green foreground, although I prefer E hydropiper. Fish keep pulling it up though. I have some in the the Erio row, it does well, but likely would get pulled up if I tried a large area of it, which is unforntuate. E triandra did well also, but I'll not going to use that of Gloss in this tank or HC(fish will pull up HC also).

It's really an issue of combining the right red colors and shapes for this tank.


----------



## plantbrain

xmas_one said:


> Always impressed with this tank. Tom, what bulbs are you currently using?


Giesemann AF's, URI red sun, ATI blue specials, RedWave and GE starcoat. 
I think I'll change a few of them around coming up, I'd like a bit different color, more like my 180.


----------



## samee

Wheres the butterfly? Is it behind the dw?

Your tank is just too organized, too many open spaces, it just looks weird. I dont know how to put it. You have no problem bringing out the colours and growing plants, but that tank is just something else.


----------



## ua hua

The tank looks beautiful as always, I'm always impressed with the L. Pantanal. It's such a nice looking plant.

What's the red colored plant in the very front right corner?


----------



## plantbrain

samee said:


> Wheres the butterfly? Is it behind the dw?
> 
> Your tank is just too organized, too many open spaces, it just looks weird. I dont know how to put it. You have no problem bringing out the colours and growing plants, but that tank is just something else.


You can state the same thing about every Dutch NBAT tank also

Yes, the butter fly has not grown up and topped out over the surface yet, maybe another 2 weeks there for that. 

Some of the issues you have might be due to a fresh trim.

If I leave the tank alone for 2 weeks, the tank is filled to the top. It's only 18" tall. So open space is relative in the time scale. It can easily fill up really fast and get away from you. I prefer the freshly trimmed look because I know I do not have to trim it for a week or so.... and that.... makes me happy. 
Also, it's easier for others to see the depth and various plants this way versus a more over grown look.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> The tank looks beautiful as always, I'm always impressed with the L. Pantanal. It's such a nice looking plant.
> 
> What's the red colored plant in the very front right corner?


Some weedy Ech tennellus "red" which is soon to be removed. I'll add the pennywort I had there before. That always looked nice and recovered well post trim. 

I wanted to get rid of the red pantanal, but it's such a bright red plant and weedy thing is easy to grow out and stuff lots in there, same for the red macrandra. Well, most of the red plants in here, but red pant is insanely fast growing.

You'll notice a branch is missing from this latest pic vs the prior one, I got mad and broke it off since I had to wiggle around to plant or trim anything I pout in that row.


----------



## tandaina

I love this tank. Reminds me of a carefully laid out botanical garden, just gorgeous and in my opinion very organic, not too organized at all!


----------



## flutterbug

This tank has made me want a rimless! I love the above description, I have to agree.


----------



## jcgilmore2

beautiful tank! I just ordered some butterfly myself. Excited to see what happens with it.


----------



## plantbrain

tandaina said:


> I love this tank. Reminds me of a carefully laid out botanical garden, just gorgeous and in my opinion very organic, not too organized at all!


Well, I do keep it organized for a few reasons, the tank is very Dutch in my groupings. 

I have a few VERY good reasons for this.

1. Few seem to do it.
2. Many cannot do it.
3. It shows a higher level of horticultural skill with the plants than nature style with many species
4. Dutch styles are under represented and *are not corporately promoted*
5. I like many plant species.
6. Dutch styles have few newbie fan boys. 
7. It's not really Dutch style either.
8. that said, the Dutch tulip gardens and agriculture offers a similar array of color contrast, as can California Agriculture 
9. My goal was simple: A nice brightly colored tank, flowing groups of plants with many species, but some form of organization.
10. I can sell a lot of rare plants and still have a nice looking farm
11. Plant and shrimp sales alone have paid for this tank 3x over last year alone. 
12. I can experiment with virtually any plant species and contrast between species.
13. Tank evolves over time and self corrects

I have a similar idea for a new hardscape and have the wood picked out for when I redo this scape, maybe this winter. It'll be more befitting to the shape and scaling of the tank(48x18x30), might be a bit Nature style I suppose in the hard scaping, but the colors and groups will still have the Dutch flair.


----------



## plantbrain

jcgilmore2 said:


> beautiful tank! I just ordered some butterfly myself. Excited to see what happens with it.


Tropica will be taking this plant variety into production from the looks of it.
It looks better in my 180 Gallon though.

Deeper tank, better current and CO2, a little less light, but I think the bulb mix also plays a role and deep wide current vs current shooting across a shallow tank's surface. The tank is just a bit too shallow for what I really want to do. 

So I'll redo the hardscape sometime in the coming few months.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Few people do it? I disagree, far too many are more Dutch than Nature.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Few people do it? I disagree, far too many are more Dutch than Nature.


You need to take a look at virtually any and every contest. 

Maybe 1 for every 20, if that.


----------



## Phil Edwards

plantbrain said:


> You need to take a look at virtually any and every contest.
> 
> Maybe 1 for every 20, if that.



^^^ +1

Not nearly enough people are doing Dutch style tanks these days, IMO. It's a beautiful style that is sadly dying out. The flashy marketing done by ADA and rightfully beautiful setups have made it the dominant style these days. I wish more people would keep Dutch style systems and keep the style alive.


----------



## AnotherHobby

I am a big fan of this tank! I've been following it for a long time even though I haven't commented. I agree... I don't see the Dutch style nearly as often, or at least what I understand it to be. When I do see it, I like it.

I drew on this tank and the Dutch style for some inspiration with my own tank (see here). I don't know if mine is technically a Dutch style tank, but I kept all of my plants in groups and used a lot of color. It's not the more popular recreation of a more realistic nature scene, but I love it an really enjoy it.


----------



## plantbrain

Phil Edwards said:


> ^^^ +1
> 
> Not nearly enough people are doing Dutch style tanks these days, IMO. It's a beautiful style that is sadly dying out. The flashy marketing done by ADA and rightfully beautiful setups have made it the dominant style these days. I wish more people would keep Dutch style systems and keep the style alive.


Need a corporate sponsor.


----------



## Jack Gilvey

Love this tank, it's what a planted tank should be. Not everyone wants a rock garden with plants but that seems to be de rigueur for those starting out.


----------



## parrottbay

Very gorgeous tank!!!


----------



## plantbrain

Jack Gilvey said:


> Love this tank, it's what a planted tank should be. Not everyone wants a rock garden with plants but that seems to be de rigueur for those starting out.


Hard to say what a planted tank is or is not these days. 

But the focus should be on the plants I've always felt, and horticulture.
Hardscaping is a really cool element that ADA/Nature style brought into the scene in a big way. 

You can do both. 

I suppose it's because I started with plants before even seeing ADA, so my focus was the Dutch groupings and full thick planted tanks full of well groomed plants. But like any hobbyists going back many decades, I love wood and nice rock also.

It's a good marriage I think, but the wood and rock are NOT dutch style. 
That is the big detraction really. 

Things have really changed a lot since I started in the hobby, it has for all the various sub types of aquarium keeping, think about marine tanks 40 years ago vs Reefs today. Much more change there than anything we have seen.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

I think you're underestimating the Dutch influence in many of Amano's scapes. Plenty of them have nice color and groups of stem plants.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> I think you're underestimating the Dutch influence in many of Amano's scapes. Plenty of them have nice color and groups of stem plants.


Point blank question that was asked of Amano" what do you think about Dutch aquascapes? 

"I've never seen a Dutch planted aquarium"

Hard to be influenced by it if what he states is true. 
Facts like that present a problem. 



Groups of plants in the rear sections and many elements of art, grouping plants will cross over stylistically. I'd say Amano is much more influenced by Japanese terrestrial gardening than anything. He applied that to Aquariums. 
Still, we see some similar things in all styles, and over time, many converge.


----------



## houseofcards

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> I think you're underestimating the Dutch influence in many of Amano's scapes. Plenty of them have nice color and groups of stem plants.


I'm pretty sure the concept of ADA is to replicate natural ecosystems in your own home. That is the driving force behind the design. I really don't think dutch styles tanks would play much of a role in that. Groupings, open space, hardscape, topography, etc will all be a part of that.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

plantbrain said:


> Point blank question that was asked of Amano" what do you think about Dutch aquascapes?
> 
> "I've never seen a Dutch planted aquarium"
> 
> Hard to be influenced by it if what he states is true.
> Facts like that present a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Groups of plants in the rear sections and many elements of art, grouping plants will cross over stylistically. I'd say Amano is much more influenced by Japanese terrestrial gardening than anything. He applied that to Aquariums.
> Still, we see some similar things in all styles, and over time, many converge.


Source for that quotation?


----------



## gomesj

houseofcards said:


> I'm pretty sure the concept of ADA is to replicate natural ecosystems in your own home. That is the driving force behind the design. I really don't think dutch styles tanks would play much of a role in that. Groupings, open space, hardscape, topography, etc will all be a part of that.


There is not much natural about planted tanks.


----------



## tithra

Just wanted to stop in and say that I love seeing updates about this tank.

The Dutch style aquascape is what got me interested in planted tanks initially. I love the groupings, the color, and the contrast. It kind of bums me out that not many here seem interested in this style.

Anyway, your tank is lovely and I look forward to more updates. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## houseofcards

gomesj said:


> There is not much natural about planted tanks.


We're talking about what inspired the 'look' of the ADA nature aquarium, not the actual way it functions/upkeep compared to nature. :icon_wink


----------



## plantbrain

Did some hacking again today, mowed some groups down and added the Red ludwigia back, then swapped the mini A reneckii for the R. macrandra, this produces a deeper darker red and a bright vibrant red contrast, rather than overloading one side too much with one or the other shades of red. 

Using 1 red plant in a scape is one level, using 2, another, using 5-7, quite another matter. I'm happy with this grouping and I know it'll last for sometime. 
the Green plants, I would like more erect stem like than the prostrate downoi and Erios, but, they are nice also.

The Type 3 Erio setaceum are very nice, but touchy to do over a year or two in this tank. Need a taller tank basically. L gigentea, or what is called that, is a good replacement, but so so weedy(2x a week hackings required). 
I have a fair amount of the E. hydropiper, so I could redo the foreground, but I'll wait till this group of weeds fills in and then decide. 

I think I have about 2 more weeks now till the tank is where I want.
Then I'll go back to the stemy stuff and add the E hydropiper again. 
After a few weeks, couple of months, I'll see where I'm at. 

Likely will redo the tank/hardscape entirely at that point.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Source for that quotation?


Asked point blank at a convention. I've also read it again somewhere on the web. I'll see if I can find it. You can ask him yourself also:wink:
I have.


----------



## plantbrain

tithra said:


> Just wanted to stop in and say that I love seeing updates about this tank.
> 
> The Dutch style aquascape is what got me interested in planted tanks initially. I love the groupings, the color, and the contrast. It kind of bums me out that not many here seem interested in this style.
> 
> Anyway, your tank is lovely and I look forward to more updates.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just to be clear, it's somewhat far removed from strict Dutch style.
Way too much red and odd shapes, too much wood, the water is too rich in just about everything, tank is not enclosed etc. That said, the trimming methods, care and routines are very Dutch. Some of the general ideas come from Dutch styles. 

While I am awe of awesome hardscaping skills, they do NOT represent pure horticultural skills. Plants vs driftwood/rock etc. Ultimately, this is a planted tank. Otherwise, a rift cichlid tank with nice aesthetic stone would qualify. 

Amano does very well there with plants. As well as the Dutch styles, so let's not forget that either. He and ADA are FAR better photographers and we all know a pic is worth a 1000 words, maybe more. Dutch? I've rarely seen high grade pics and really good photoshoots.


----------



## jfynyson

plantbrain said:


> ..... That said, the trimming methods, care and routines are very Dutch. Some of the general ideas come from Dutch styles.


Maybe sometime you could do a thread or short video on said trimming methods & routines....(school us all on the techniques for the different plant types) that's what I've been looking for and cannot seem to find anywhere at all. I started a thread the other day for just such knowledge to reside.:help: Marco's thread over on UKAPS has not yet done so either.

Thanks for all you do for us and can't wait to see your next aquatic garden.


----------



## samee

jfynyson said:


> Maybe sometime you could do a thread or short video on said trimming methods & routines....(school us all on the techniques for the different plant types) that's what I've been looking for and cannot seem to find anywhere at all. I started a thread the other day for just such knowledge to reside.:help: Marco's thread over on UKAPS has not yet done so either.
> 
> Thanks for all you do for us and can't wait to see your next aquatic garden.


hm Ive recently been wondering how to make those really bushy parts. I can do it with the d. diandra, but plants like Ludwiga hybrid red and of sort, how to you make them look busy? All the way to the top of the aquarium.

Dutch is also what got me into planted tanks. When I went all high tech, I wanted to grow all the rare plants. Recently, I got serious and want to do a dutch properly. I need to learn how to prune and stuff though before I move on. Plant choice is also crucial from what Ive experienced.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, this tank is much more suited to collectoritus diseases which afflict many.
Perhaps Dutch styles reflect that best with discipline. But Nature style also reflects a strong sense of discipline. Both methods make strong use of space, whether the aquarist notices this fact, is quite another matter.

I'll do a Video in awhile.

Then some trim methods.


----------



## plantbrain

Colors match pretty good now, flow better etc. Added the final plant groups.
I'll trim the Red Pantanal in a couple of days since it's so weedy anyway.


----------



## ua hua

Beautiful pictures Tom and what a cute little Plantbrain. Teach her well so the future generations will have the same love for the hobby. The transitions from one group to the next looks really nice in these most recent pictures.


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Beautiful pictures Tom and what a cute little Plantbrain. Teach her well so the future generations will have the same love for the hobby. The transitions from one group to the next looks really nice in these most recent pictures.


Color scheme is much better, the bright red, dark maroon, Bright red and then dark red works well. 

There's some conflict with stems vs rosette plants in the mid/foregronud species selection, but I'm not going to trim 24/7. Have to do what I have to do to get those colors I want with the species that will work.

I also was asked that this is such a different tank from Nature style, but.........

Is it? If I where to be a strict Dutch style, it would require removal of the hardscape and more plant changes actually than the Nature style, where I could leave the hardscape as it is, then change the plants , mostly in the mid/foreground to a main theme and then some accents. 

Ironic in a way.


----------



## plantbrain

A bit more growth for the pennywort (1 week will be plenty) and then some filling in for the rear right corner, then a little trim, and this should be at the apex. I'll clean up the front edge and cut the foreground plants back about 1" to match up and provide a nice clean line without plants pressing against the front glass.


----------



## FlyingHellFish

I always wondered, how come you don't enter the IAPC? I believe your tank will do very well, especially if you did the Amano's NPT style. 

What your KH in this particular tank?


----------



## Luminescent

plantbrain said:


> I wonder.........I'm not so sure. Might be a lack of examples too. I've seen some real creative stuff done over the years, just not as pretty pictures as ADA. It also seems that such creatively, while appreciated............does not hold a high esteem as many things in the hobby.


Oh I don't know..my sleeping beauty castle is getting some love on here. It's not just in being creative- its in Doing something different & having the guts to throw it out for the world to see. And it's in having an 'audience' that is smart and talented themselves.

Your design reminds me of this: an awe inspiringly beautiful French vegetable and flower cart I saw once. The organic lines, color and balance of weight.


----------



## plantbrain

Luminescent said:


> Oh I don't know..my sleeping beauty castle is getting some love on here. It's not just in being creative- its in Doing something different & having the guts to throw it out for the world to see. And it's in having an 'audience' that is smart and talented themselves.
> 
> Your design reminds me of this: an awe inspiringly beautiful French vegetable and flower cart I saw once. The organic lines, color and balance of weight.


Yep, my view also, similar to reefs, that are often called "fruit stands".
and they ain't being nice


----------



## plantbrain

FlyingHellFish said:


> I always wondered, how come you don't enter the IAPC? I believe your tank will do very well, especially if you did the Amano's NPT style.
> 
> What your KH in this particular tank?


Why would I give the ADA corporation for FREE, a lot of my hard work to use as they please for a low placed position that offers nothing for me in return?
I know many excellent scapers that rank very low in these contest. It's a picture contest.

Aquatic Garden's Association?
Their contest is far better frankly.
Non profit and the oldest on line contest in the world for planted tanks.
I have never entered any contest, likely never will. Same with Judging contest. No body likes Judges also, unless you are the winner, which are only a few people. 

I can share with a larger group without entering a contest. And I can help FAR MORE people this way, than I ever could entering contest. Which frankly is FAR more important philosophically to me at the end of the day than any contest. That is what motivates me, not a trophy.


----------



## !shadow!

Spoken well like a wiseman.


----------



## plantbrain

!shadow! said:


> Spoken well like a wiseman.


Or....... one dumb enough to learn through experience.


----------



## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> Or....... one dumb enough to learn through experience.


Experience is the only prophecy of wise men....roud:
Alphonse de Lamartine


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> Experience is the only prophecy of wise men....roud:
> Alphonse de Lamartine


"It is good to learn through experience, as long as it is not your own."

My Lawyer


----------



## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> "It is good to learn through experience, as long as it is not your own."
> 
> My Lawyer


Touche :hihi:


----------



## plantbrain

I think I'm going to try and find something darker green and different texture for pennywort location, the color match with the green plants there way too much.


----------



## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> I think I'm going to try and find something darker green and different texture for pennywort location, the color match with the green plants there way too much.


What about some Rotala Mexicana 'Goias' in the place where the pennywort is? Not a dark green but I think it would nice with the pinkish red leaves and it would stay low to the substrate there.


----------



## plantbrain

I tried the Rotala there once before, that and the tennellus red did not look good I felt.
C. parva either.

Fissidens would do well. I have a fair amount as a pest species in another tank and bits and pieces everywhere, also Mini pellia, but the fissidens is a better fit and easier to deal with. 
But...this means I need some wood pieces to cover.


----------



## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> I tried the Rotala there once before, that and the tennellus red did not look good I felt.
> C. parva either.
> 
> Fissidens would do well. I have a fair amount as a pest species in another tank and bits and pieces everywhere, also Mini pellia, but the fissidens is a better fit and easier to deal with.
> But...this means I need some wood pieces to cover.


I see. You would know better than me that much I know.

I was wondering if you know what size s/s mesh that you have over your overflow box? I need to put something over mine to keep the shrimp and otos out. I have already picked out 2 otos and 6 shrimp since I put them in the tank today at noon. I was worried about it cutting down too much flow if I didn't get a size that had big enough openings. The ones listed on ebay have pictures that look the exact same no matter what size it's listed at so it's really hard to gauge the sizes.


----------



## plantbrain

SS mesh is awesome, you can get it off ebay fairly cheap in various sizes, you can chose the size based on what you want to keep out, but still allow enough through to not clog over a few days least you forget to clean it.

Looking back, I think replacing the A reineckii with the L senegalensis would be better. So I might remove that plant, or switch with the Hygro araguia somewhere. The senegalensis looked good contrasted and still have a nice, but different color balance. A bit weedier than A reineckii mini, but..........not that bad.

Never happy am I?

Well, I'll know pretty well what contrast and looks good together from now on.


----------



## plantbrain

You will note that one of the Erio's is yellowing from the base, started about 2 weeks ago, not sure why either. None of the others have done this either.
Not replanted, moved, flowering or anything else I can figure. 

Right rear corner is coming along, but slower than hoped.
UG you can clearly see it's about ti life off, I'll add some ADA AS on top and semi bury the section.
This will prevent it for another 2-3 weeks. At some point, I'll need to pull it and replant some new plugs, then wait 8 weeks or so to get a nice looking thick rug. Monte Carlo looks decent now, took longer than the I thought.
Even with massive pruning, the R. macrandra has performed better than I expected. Note,: you can uproot and replant tops, or trim from the top and wait for new growth. I feel it's best to uproot and trim the tops and replant those, than simply trim the top and allow new growth to come back.
If you want a nice hedge like appearance, it's easier/better for most stem plants to trim like a hedge and top only, not uproot.

But some plants respond better/well to the two main types of pruning methods.
I'm not certain they are universal either, some hobbyist under some conditions might find it much better to use method versus another.
Or where you need to clean up the ratty lower stems and uproot for a couple of times, then once the nice healthy growth is there, then only top the plants. 











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----------



## Fat Guy

really enjoying it.


----------



## taniner

So nice! What plant is the red/orange 2nd on the right near the filter?


----------



## jonathan

color and leaf density so nice


----------



## plantbrain

I liked the E hydropiper and the E. triandra, with the L. gigeantea in the past a lot, gave a nicer distance look really.

But 2 of those 3 are extremely weedy plants............

Adn fish and shrimp picked up the E hydropiper which I have plenty if to grow ina tank without pesky critters up rooting it or perhaps some new sediment might work better. Plain sand with EI would work great, it grows fine in the water column without being attached to sediment at all.

I'm going to hack and rework the Right rear side tomorrow.


----------



## perchmonger

Your tank is just stunning and I am blown away!
Keep up the great aquascapes.

George


----------



## Da Plant Man

Question - Why is your tank somewhat cloudy? Its gorgeous, but I am just curious if thats from maintenance, or what?


----------



## exv152

plantbrain said:


> I liked the E hydropiper and the E. triandra, with the L. gigeantea in the past a lot, gave a nicer distance look really.
> 
> But 2 of those 3 are extremely weedy plants............
> 
> Adn fish and shrimp picked up the E hydropiper which I have plenty if to grow ina tank without pesky critters up rooting it or perhaps some new sediment might work better. Plain sand with EI would work great, it grows fine in the water column without being attached to sediment at all.
> 
> I'm going to hack and rework the Right rear side tomorrow.


Sounds like elatine hydropiper is a very undemanding plant, much like its cousin glossostigma. Too bad it's so darn hard to come by.


----------



## plantbrain

Da Plant Man said:


> Question - Why is your tank somewhat cloudy? Its gorgeous, but I am just curious if thats from maintenance, or what?


Mentioned a dozen or more times in the thread.

When you take pics of tanks that are pearling intensely like this tank with current, you get wash out from all the bubbles, this with high light reflects those bubbles.
Add current to blow the pearling all over, then you get this effect. 

You do not see this in person, several local members have seen this tank, it's not cloudy at all.
My Buce tank looks crystal clear, but has less flow and less pearling and less light. Sometimes I've uprooted a lot and pruned, so that suspends all the ADA AS, this settles after a day or so.
I not sure why so many people keep asking this question, this is not a contest photo shoot. 
I often take pics right after I do the work/uprooting/pruning on the tank..........


----------



## plantbrain

exv152 said:


> Sounds like elatine hydropiper is a very undemanding plant, much like its cousin glossostigma. Too bad it's so darn hard to come by.


Yes and no.

It does not do well for 99% of folks. Some do okay with emergent culture, but only for a time. The submersed or floating growth is likely the best way to do it, or sterile emergent culture.

It was hit or miss for me, but I found a simple way to grow it even at warm temps. Those can then be transplanted to the sand/soil etc.


----------



## GBRguy

first off that is one stunning tank. second what are these two plants?


----------



## Shawn123

The right is pogostemon helferi aka downoi, the left is eriocaulon(not sure which kind though).


----------



## keats

Looks like Cinereum (sp?)


----------



## furnfins

absolutely beautiful scape!


----------



## oldpunk78

Has a non-aquarium person ever been over and asked "is that saltwater? "


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

exv152 said:


> Sounds like elatine hydropiper is a very undemanding plant, much like its cousin glossostigma. Too bad it's so darn hard to come by.


No, it's not that easy.


----------



## plantbrain

oldpunk78 said:


> Has a non-aquarium person ever been over and asked "is that saltwater? "


Not without a good beating with a large piece of driftwood.


----------



## talontsiawd

plantbrain said:


> Not without a good beating with a large piece of driftwood.


Haha. I was going to say though, you better have had. In my experience, any freshwater tank that looks good is assumed to be saltwater by a non hobbyist.


----------



## jfynyson

talontsiawd said:


> Haha. I was going to say though, you better have had. In my experience, any freshwater tank that looks good is assumed to be saltwater by a non hobbyist.


Ha ha ha I thought I was the only one that had people asking me that and all this time I thought it had something to do with us Southern folks.


----------



## plantbrain

No one has ever asked that question to me personally. I'm trying to think back, but........no one ever did as I can recall.


----------



## DaveFish

plantbrain said:


> A bit more growth for the pennywort (1 week will be plenty) and then some filling in for the rear right corner, then a little trim, and this should be at the apex. I'll clean up the front edge and cut the foreground plants back about 1" to match up and provide a nice clean line without plants pressing against the front glass.


 How are you plants sooo colorful? What is your secret. What are your lights? I cannot handle how colorful the plants are. I have never seen plants soo vibrant.


----------



## plantbrain

DaveFish said:


> How are you plants sooo colorful? What is your secret. What are your lights? I cannot handle how colorful the plants are. I have never seen plants soo vibrant.


I dip them in paint.


----------



## Positron

Would it be safe to use a latex or do I have to stick with water based paint?


----------



## jccaclimber

Positron said:


> Would it be safe to use a latex or do I have to stick with water based paint?


Latex if you want stocking to remain constant, non-latex if you want your fish to breed.

Joking aside I recently added the red UVL bulb that Tom has (listed somewhere earlier in this thread) and have been messing around with other light bulbs. While 6700k bulbs grow things just fine, I have been able to get much better colors out of my plants just by swapping the bulbs around. I don't know that they are growing any better, but I do like the way it makes them look.


----------



## ua hua

jccaclimber said:


> Latex if you want stocking to remain constant, non-latex if you want your fish to breed.
> 
> Joking aside I recently added the red UVL bulb that Tom has (listed somewhere earlier in this thread) and have been messing around with other light bulbs. While 6700k bulbs grow things just fine, I have been able to get much better colors out of my plants just by swapping the bulbs around. I don't know that they are growing any better, but I do like the way it makes them look.


I have seen the same thing in my tank since adding the UVL red sun bulb. It took some time getting used to but I really like the way it makes the plants look if used with a combination of different spectrum bulbs.


----------



## plantbrain

If you have many bulb fixtures, then you can play around, but if you have only 2 bulbs, then a red will make the tank look too weird, freaky etc.

The light in the tank looks good, but the light fixture still messes with you.


----------



## jccaclimber

^I should add that I only have the red bulb on when all four are on. I tried the red sun with just one 10k and then with just one 6700k and while I could probably get used to the appearance, it was clearly an unnatural shade. With four it balances out nicely.


----------



## plantbrain

jccaclimber said:


> ^I should add that I only have the red bulb on when all four are on. I tried the red sun with just one 10k and then with just one 6700k and while I could probably get used to the appearance, it was clearly an unnatural shade. With four it balances out nicely.


I could not handle anymore than 1:3 other bulbs colors for the red sun, it's a wicked red.

But makes the plants reflect back to our eyes a lot of red, the Coralife colormax t5's also did a lot of that, but they are weak in the overall PAR, while a white GE starcoat is really high, but will not reflect as much red color.

I likely have spent 1000$ on T5 bulbs playing around.
Not so much PAR readings, rather, specific to plant and and my own eye's aesthetics and perceptions. Which ultimately is what the questions about lighting really boil down to: grows the plants well(most bulbs do this) and the rest is just aesthetics.


----------



## CheyLillymama22

Im irrationally jealous of your tank

what are those lovely orange plants?


----------



## jccaclimber

plantbrain said:


> I could not handle anymore than 1:3 other bulbs colors for the red sun, it's a wicked red.
> 
> But makes the plants reflect back to our eyes a lot of red, the Coralife colormax t5's also did a lot of that, but they are weak in the overall PAR, while a white GE starcoat is really high, but will not reflect as much red color.
> 
> I likely have spent 1000$ on T5 bulbs playing around.
> Not so much PAR readings, rather, specific to plant and and my own eye's aesthetics and perceptions. Which ultimately is what the questions about lighting really boil down to: grows the plants well(most bulbs do this) and the rest is just aesthetics.


Convenient that you just mentioned that. I was asking an online retailer today about the Red Sun bulb as they carried the shorter lengths but not the 54W. They said it has been discontinued, or will be soon. Assuming there is any truth in that, are there any decent alternatives? I don't really want to order a case of them, but it really does look nice.


----------



## parrottbay

Do you use or recommend a PAR reader?


----------



## Wolf19

This may have been asked already, but Tom - do you use GE bulbs for this set up?


----------



## plantbrain

I'll likely redo/scape the tank in the next month or two.
Don't worry, it'll still have most of the same plants/colors etc.


----------



## FlyingHellFish

You know Tom, if you just tried a bit, that a top 10 IAPLC tank. Pic # 2 looks majestic, toss on some moss (IAPLC love moss) and you got a killer tank.


----------



## plantbrain

FlyingHellFish said:


> You know Tom, if you just tried a bit, that a top 10 IAPLC tank. Pic # 2 looks majestic, toss on some moss (IAPLC love moss) and you got a killer tank.


I doubt that, maybe back in 2001. Today, way down there. Maybe top 200 if I was lucky. 
I just reduced the gamma a tad and then cropped and resized the images, they are pretty much just point and shoot pics, not special photoshoot, no flash, no black or white boards, no filtering the water or doing several large water changes back to back etc. 
Debating if I'll even bother. I approach this more like an open house, than photoshoot. But I will get around to a decent photo shoot sometime this week maybe. Video etc.


I have no interest or desire to enter contest, never "did it" for me. Same with Judging contest. My tank, hard work and intellectual property becomes ADA's basically and then they use that to promote their company. I do not need "promotion", so it a very very one sided affair and then to be knocked way down below the top 100-200 is perhaps more than likely. So......

Anyhow, I've made more $ off the tank selling plants and farming than any IAPLC prize money could possibly offer. :icon_wink And unlike a contest, that is money in the bank. I know many of the top folks really focus very strongly on such contest, some come back year after year, but many do not unfortunately. The AGA contest is the only one I really support. Many of the ADA entries are in that contest also. Likewise, that contest has gotten really competitive. But the AGA is a non profit and is the oldest on line contest in the world.

I can enter as a show case aquarium, a non competitive entry for that. 

There's plenty of moss in the tank, you just do no see it from a distance or the views. Sure, I can easily add more Fissidens, Xmas etc real quick, but....they are weedy.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Tom,

I've kept meaning to ask. How do you get such straight vertical growth from your stems? Is it lighting? Type of flow? Ferts? I've rarely had a tank where the stems don't start growing horizontally after a while and there are too many variables in my setups for me to place it easily. My best guess is I typically use a lot of light; but your setup's got as much, if not more, light than I've ever used before. Have you noticed changes in growth habit in stems with changes in hardware or fert concentrations?


----------



## plantbrain

Phil Edwards said:


> Tom,
> 
> I've kept meaning to ask. How do you get such straight vertical growth from your stems? Is it lighting? Type of flow? Ferts? I've rarely had a tank where the stems don't start growing horizontally after a while and there are too many variables in my setups for me to place it easily. My best guess is I typically use a lot of light; but your setup's got as much, if not more, light than I've ever used before. Have you noticed changes in growth habit in stems with changes in hardware or fert concentrations?



Flow, height of the tank, CO2 perhaps.
Obviously, trimming also.


----------



## plantbrain

http://youtu.be/WNbIoubH6Tg


----------



## sdbrewer

plantbrain said:


> http://youtu.be/WNbIoubH6Tg
> 
> 120 Gallon Dutch hybrid aquarium - YouTube


Ive been waiting for this.


----------



## ua hua

That is beautiful in so many ways that you couldn't ever see in your pictures. What is the song playing in your video? I'm liking that..:thumbsup:


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> That is beautiful in so many ways that you couldn't ever see in your pictures. What is the song playing in your video? I'm liking that..:thumbsup:


Da blues.............low tide.


----------



## pianofish

Wow Tom, I reckon it must be fun to be able to scape something with so much depth. One thing I noticed in the video is that your flow rate appears to be minimal. Aside from the plant in the top left corner, it seems as if most of your stems just have a very very slight gentle breeze. Would you say that is the trick to growing healthier stems?


----------



## Da Plant Man

The amount of depth in that tank is astonishing.


----------



## plantbrain

pianofish said:


> Wow Tom, I reckon it must be fun to be able to scape something with so much depth. One thing I noticed in the video is that your flow rate appears to be minimal. Aside from the plant in the top left corner, it seems as if most of your stems just have a very very slight gentle breeze. Would you say that is the trick to growing healthier stems?


The tank has over 800 gph flowing, the plants in the path of the flow are trimmed down a good deal for this reason, there's some R wallichii being whipped. But not much else. Fair amount of rippling on the surface.


----------



## Fat Guy

That music made me think that Heisenberg was about to appear.

as always- great layout.


----------



## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> Da blues.............low tide.


Is low tide the name of the band? And if it is what is the name of the song? I searched all over and found a couple of bands with the name low tide, one of them sounded similar to what you played but I couldn't find that song.


----------



## plantbrain

Fat Guy said:


> That music made me think that Heisenberg was about to appear.
> 
> as always- great layout.


Thanks,

Heisenberg...wha?
I assume you mean some vague reference from Breaking Bad's main character?
I think of the uncertainty principle when I see that reference personally.

ua hua,

That's the song name, the band is Silent Partner. Jazz blues stuff. I figured my fav Primus songs would not quite fit the mood there.


----------



## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> Thanks,
> 
> Heisenberg...wha?
> I assume you mean some vague reference from Breaking Bad's main character?
> I think of the uncertainty principle when I see that reference personally.
> 
> ua hua,
> 
> That's the song name, the band is Silent Partner. Jazz blues stuff. I figured my fav Primus songs would not quite fit the mood there.


Thanks. I'm a huge Les Claypool fan so I would have appreciated it.


----------



## Fat Guy

plantbrain said:


> Thanks,
> 
> Heisenberg...wha?
> I assume you mean some vague reference from Breaking Bad's main character?
> I think of the uncertainty principle when I see that reference personally.
> 
> ua hua,
> 
> That's the song name, the band is Silent Partner. Jazz blues stuff. I figured my fav Primus songs would not quite fit the mood there.


yessir! that music does indeed have a subtle breaking bad/cue the credits of the show undertone, but it doesn't surprise me that you would think of the heisenberg principle :icon_cool 
Les Claypool rocks by the way. I could hear/imagine some Frank Zappa in that tank as well.


----------



## LICfish

Amazing. In such a heavily planted tank, how do you keep the bottom of the stems so healthy?


----------



## plantbrain

Fat Guy said:


> yessir! that music does indeed have a subtle breaking bad/cue the credits of the show undertone, but it doesn't surprise me that you would think of the heisenberg principle :icon_cool
> Les Claypool rocks by the way. I could hear/imagine some Frank Zappa in that tank as well.


Since you are a Zappa fan........I'll add Adrian Blue's Big Electric Cat next time.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## Ach1Ll3sH33L

I think this is the best its been! Great as always


----------



## plantbrain

I'm not going to trim for a week and then post a pic and video hopefully.

It'll be a HD video too.


----------



## plantbrain

I will likely not trim anything etc in this tank for another 5-6 days. The tornado is going nuts as are most of the back ground plants, the red pant is doing very well ATM, not sure why.
Tends to grow a bit paler in the middle stages and then reddens as it tops the surface. 

I could trim a few rows and make it so you can see the A. reineckii mini, trim the Tonina a bit, wait another 2 days, trim the red pant, trim some of the front Downoi, clean up some etc.

But.......I'll wait and let it over flow.
Some whiners have asked for it.

Tank shall be quite overgrown.
Added more CO2 and ferts to keep up with things. 
NO3 drops fast, so I've already spotting BGA in the tops of the Tornado, which I only see if the NO3 drops too much.
A day or two later, the BGA is gone after dosing KNO3.


----------



## synaethetic

Awesome! Really liking the foreground in it's current condition. Will wait to see what things look like as you let it grow out this week. Excellent photos as well, I have noticed the quality of these in your last post are much better than others in this thread!


----------



## tithra

great pictures! I love the pics that are the view from slightly below the tank looking up  gorgeous!


----------



## plantbrain

synaethetic said:


> Awesome! Really liking the foreground in it's current condition. Will wait to see what things look like as you let it grow out this week. Excellent photos as well, I have noticed the quality of these in your last post are much better than others in this thread!


The difference between a Canon G12 on auto vs a Canon 5D MKII on manual. :wink:

Still no flash or boards to block reflections etc. Lens could use a good cleaning too.


----------



## Algae Beater

Stunning Tom! And great choice of cameras


----------



## antbug

Now everyone knows you're a good photog too. 

Those reflection shots ..................so nice.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> Now everyone knows you're a good photog too.
> 
> Those reflection shots ..................so nice.


Wanna see the tank before I redo it? 
You got about another week or two.


----------



## chad320

What are you considering for the redo? Are you doing the same dutch-style with more dramatic wood or whats the plan this time?


----------



## plantbrain

I have some hardscape ideas that lend well and dramatically so to this color scheme.

One of the PITA's is the tank is so shallow, so I can make that with the plant groups, but this means a lot of work to get it to look correctly. The time it's in that zone is long often times. So by trimming the plants shorter/choosing shorter types and relying more on the hardscape for the forms...........I can get a nice effect.

I also plan to redo the 70 Gallon Buce tank. It looks nice but Buces can be a bit ratty for the idea and hardscape that's in there, it was designed more like a rock iwagumi, and Buce's do not look good as a carpet plant.
I could cover the wood with the Buce's, then add MC, HC, Gloss, etc.

The original idea was to use E hydropiper. I have plenty, but I have changed my mind for a different more nature style approach than the iwagumi style.
More "the edge of a jungle forest" theme.

I'll likely keep these next 2 for a couple of years or so. Then change again.
The 180 Gallon will be redone at some point. Sediment is breaking down after 5-7 years of harsh replanting and uprooting in a couple of spots.

Likely will use different products than the ADA AS, but......maybe not. 
We will see. Stuff will need to be cheaper than ADA and similar in a few ways. 
SevenSeas is going to bring in some of the new Aquatic plant soil from Mr Aqua. I might try that.

So the 120 will have a rather wilder version of of a fusion style I think, LESS like the dutch theme and more something else. Color for sure, but a radically different grouping of the plants. It's still going to be a long way from nature style. So I'm even less certain what to refer to the style as......but I think the ADA crowd will like it a bit more than this. 

I also may implement some of the different methods I have suggested over the years for this next scape. Likely more moss this time.

Most of the rock work I'm doing as of late is more for the terrestrial side and reefs, so it will use wood again. The 70 Gallon Buce might use some rock to support the wood. I have "wood like rock" also. 
The 120 and 180 will be wood only. 

After we move in a year or so, I'll get a coupe more larger tanks and stick with the what I have and then have 2 more different tanks, likely another 180 and then a 4ft long 24x 30" tank size.


----------



## antbug

plantbrain said:


> Wanna see the tank before I redo it?
> You got about another week or two.


Absolutely! Busy today, but any other time this week could work for me. I'll give you a call.


----------



## chad320

Wow, you are going to be a busy guy remodeling all three! All three of your tanks have proved no less than amazing and that's going to be a pretty hard standard to hold. With the variety of wood you have to choose from its going to be great no doubt. As much as I don't like to see these change im excited to see what you come up with next. I just got my very first 120 so im getting ready to dive into that. Its a 4 X 2 X 2 so it should be quite a bit different than what im used to. Im glad you're rescaping and will follow (I could use the tips  ). Good luck!


----------



## shrimpnmoss

Best iteration yet. If you went with more lawn...it could look like a golf course...


----------



## badmojo1974

Truly an amazing tank...


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

I would agree that it's time for a change. It was (and still does) look very nice, but I think you've explored all the best possible plant placements and groupings that there's not much you can do but keep it the same (which I know is not in your nature). Absolutely use different wood, as that is really the most defining aspect of this scape.


----------



## plantbrain

Soaking the wood for the 2 tanks.

Actually it's 5 tanks worth of wood, but I like to have plenty to play with and change my mind many times in the process.

I finished up most of the bonsai stuff for now for the winter season, so I have more green thumb time for this.


----------



## antbug

I got a sneak peak on the possible new hard scape. We are all in for a treat with this new layout.


----------



## plantbrain

antbug said:


> I got a sneak peak on the possible new hard scape. We are all in for a treat with this new layout.


It'll be fun.


----------



## plantbrain

Removed all the wood except for the main piece, will go to farm mode for the next 3 weeks or so.

Some of the species will not be suited for the new scape design. The goal is to use mostly prostrate growth habits that hug the hard scape well.

I will be using more moss/liverworts.
Erios will make a return.
So with intense color contrast. More topping and hedge style trimming, than uprooting. So less work for sure.

I collected a few new pieces of wood for the 70 Gallon Buce tank, which will be redone about the same time as this. I'll redo one tank and add the fish to the other, then switch them back to the redone tank and start on the other tank after. The 70 Gallon has only shrimp and plecos, so not much fish load.


----------



## h4n

Can't wait to see both done!

- Sent from a Phablet


----------



## plantbrain

h4n said:


> Can't wait to see both done!
> 
> - Sent from a Phablet


It'll be a few weeks before I post much.

Farm mode right now.


----------



## Asu1776

You stems seem to grow so straight up.  Is it because the light's spread across the tank rather evenly?


----------



## Bserve

I thought thistank was coming down on the 7-8th


----------



## gnod

uh, i swear the last few photos remind me of my hike i took in the last few weeks during foliage up by lake minnewaska. amazing..


----------



## maxwellag

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of wood was it that you had in there? I have been looking for similar looking wood for a while. Any common name? I don't think it's manzanita or mopani.


----------



## plantbrain

Bserve said:


> I thought thistank was coming down on the 7-8th


It did.

It's been redone already and is already bounced back. I need to redo some of the plant groups and switch things around. Much harder to get that right than the hardscape, that went quick.

No more Botia sidthimunkii, I will keep the 5 elephant noses though and all the shrimps and plecos. 

I'll be adding a bit more ADA AS to the tank.
Need to get some more of one type of plant and I think that will be it for a bit. Then a new theme fish I've never had. Something that does not eat plants/tear them up, or jump out easily.


----------



## plantbrain

maxwellag said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what kind of wood was it that you had in there? I have been looking for similar looking wood for a while. Any common name? I don't think it's manzanita or mopani.


It's manzy and the new version is also manzy, but a different species this time than the typical wood I collect at higher elevations.


----------



## plantbrain

Asu1776 said:


> You stems seem to grow so straight up. Is it because the light's spread across the tank rather evenly?


I suppose. Also, perhaps how I trim for that effect.


----------



## plantbrain

New scape teaser:

This is the 3rd 100% water change after uprooting the plants. 





3 more water changes later:


----------



## tommypham

Looking good Tom . Can't wait to see the tank done


----------



## asuran

Best tank journal, any updates for new scape?


----------



## John Simpson

Nice layout! classic!


----------



## h4n

Very nice, love the stumps!


----------



## synaethetic

Nice re-scape. It's crazy it took you so many water changes to clear your water! What a chore! 

I always liked looking for the botia's in your images, I bet those elephant nose fish will be even harder to spot!


----------



## Ebi

This tanks gonna feel in quick


----------



## plantbrain

Still making changes, I need to fix the green green contrast in the front middle with the Elatine hydropiper and the Blood vomits.

I have a plan or two.


----------



## manzpants92

Amazing as always tom, great work.


----------



## Drixo.vip

Wow. This is beautiful! Lots of inspiration for me in just these few pictures !!!!


----------



## Wolf19

Inspirational


----------



## GDominy

I really like the new scape, can't wait to see it fill in.

After doing so many water changes do you spike your fertilizers at all or just keep dosing as usual?


----------



## ChadRamsey

Dang you Tom! You really piss me off with this tank. What i struggle with, you do with such ease!

You have officially made my "naughty" list. 

DO NOT expect a Christmas card from me this year!
























its beautiful!:icon_cool


----------



## prototyp3

The rock hat is a nice touch, love it!
The arrangement is great, and I dug the surface qualities of that wood - really gives it the scale of a larger piece.


----------



## Dempsey

Looks great as always, Tom!

What is the plant in the back right corner looking from the front?

I need a nice green plant like that in my tank...

Edit: Actually, both corners. I like them both.


----------



## UDGags

I think that's tonina lotus blossom


----------



## plantbrain

GDominy said:


> I really like the new scape, can't wait to see it fill in.
> 
> After doing so many water changes do you spike your fertilizers at all or just keep dosing as usual?


Same.

Same light, same CO2 and same ferts. 
There's 9 liters of new ADA aqua soil though.

So leaching NH4, but a mature plant group and filter take care of that. I have been doing 2x a week water changes, about 70%.


----------



## plantbrain

ChadRamsey said:


> Dang you Tom! You really piss me off with this tank. What i struggle with, you do with such ease!
> 
> You have officially made my "naughty" list.
> 
> DO NOT expect a Christmas card from me this year!
> its beautiful!:icon_cool


I always get coal for Xmas.


----------



## plantbrain

prototyp3 said:


> The rock hat is a nice touch, love it!
> The arrangement is great, and I dug the surface qualities of that wood - really gives it the scale of a larger piece.


It'll take about 3-4 months for the wood to mature and get all Ricciadia'd.
I plan on using this more than the Fissidens which is a nice moss, very deep dark green, but the Mini pellia/Ricciardia is a nicer touch I think personally.

The tops of the stumps will be pretty coats and patchy with it, not completely engulfed or anything, but it'll hopefully be like "green lava".

I'd considered a nice row of Pellia or Subwassertang etc. It's got a nice texture and color as well, but not as deep green as Fissidens. But, the Ricciardia is a bit like Riccia but darker green and much more manageable in terms of growth rates.

The stems give a shorter time scale sense, while the Mini pellia offers a time scale that's several months ahead. The L. sphaerocarpa is coloring up nicer than before. It does not contrast well near the L senegalensis.

I am still looking for Syngoanthus uaupes, weeping moss and Hydrocotyle verticillata. 

I am also trying out the L red pantanal in a spot or two to see.
I hate that damn plant. But it has the color and the leaf shape for good color and contrast balance. 

The search continues.


----------



## plantbrain

Dempsey said:


> Looks great as always, Tom!
> 
> What is the plant in the back right corner looking from the front?
> 
> I need a nice green plant like that in my tank...
> 
> Edit: Actually, both corners. I like them both.


Tonina lotus blossom and the other left side there's Rotala "green" and ther Myriphyllum mini.

I do not have much of the Myrio ATM, but I have the Tonina in mass for sale. 

See above for trade bait also. 

Many foreground plants are bright green and contrast well with reds.
Also balances having to trim the red stems often and opens up the tank and better flow etc.


----------



## GDominy

plantbrain said:


> Same.
> 
> Same light, same CO2 and same ferts.
> There's 9 liters of new ADA aqua soil though.
> 
> So leaching NH4, but a mature plant group and filter take care of that. I have been doing 2x a week water changes, about 70%.


Nice, I was wondering about that. I have so much light Im really apprehensive about trying an organic substrate. I have to keep a close eye on my nutrients Im just not sure what would happen if I switched to aquasoil.


----------



## jccaclimber

plantbrain said:


> I am also trying out the L red pantanal in a spot or two to see.
> I hate that damn plant. But it has the color and the leaf shape for good color and contrast balance.


Can you expand on this a bit? I was thinking of adding it (never kept it before) in a tank I'm setting up. Unfortunately I don't personally know anyone who has kept it to hear their experiences.


----------



## houseofcards

I know it's probably not your thing, but I really like the stumps and placement and I can't help but think having one foreground like the UG would really accent the wood very well. having various plants in the foreground compete with the hardscape placement. IMO of course!


----------



## switch26

Tom, how do you keep the lower leaves from getting shaded? Looking back thru some of the older pics a lot of your plants look healthy all the way to the bottom? How do you keep them from having lower leaves die off when they are in such tight groupings? 

Is it from the lighting or otherwise? Or are some of the pics deceiving


----------



## plantbrain

houseofcards said:


> I know it's probably not your thing, but I really like the stumps and placement and I can't help but think having one foreground like the UG would really accent the wood very well. having various plants in the foreground compete with the hardscape placement. IMO of course!


I've considered it.

It does contrast well with the wood.

But...........the tank is more for stems and high light stuff.


----------



## plantbrain

GDominy said:


> Nice, I was wondering about that. I have so much light Im really apprehensive about trying an organic substrate. I have to keep a close eye on my nutrients Im just not sure what would happen if I switched to aquasoil.


I honestly have not paid much ado about ferts for a good 10+ years.

I add them, more than enough and then focus much more on light , co2 etc


----------



## ikuzo

gotta love stump scapes
i had bad experience with mini pelia when they spread loose and grow all over the tanks though


----------



## plantbrain

ikuzo said:


> gotta love stump scapes
> i had bad experience with mini pelia when they spread loose and grow all over the tanks though


I was worried about that, but compared to Fissidens, it's much more well behaved. The rest can be lightly vacuumed up or added to new cracks.

You can see the plant in the Buce 70 Gallon tank.

I've been sick for 2 weeks with every sort of issue, but.......eventually I'll redo that tank and get the frags going in the reef.

This tank is coming along pretty good though.


----------



## plantbrain

switch26 said:


> Tom, how do you keep the lower leaves from getting shaded? Looking back thru some of the older pics a lot of your plants look healthy all the way to the bottom? How do you keep them from having lower leaves die off when they are in such tight groupings?
> 
> Is it from the lighting or otherwise? Or are some of the pics deceiving


Gardening?

There's a lot of light and a wide spread since the light is 18" wide, so many angles of lighting strike the leaves. Trimming well, staying on top of the scape.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Why that rock?


----------



## Landmines

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Why that rock?


im guessing to waterlog it?


----------



## Craigthor

very nice tom, been a while since i stopped in and this tank has matured nicely.


----------



## plantbrain

Craigthor said:


> very nice tom, been a while since i stopped in and this tank has matured nicely.


It's a ways off still, but........I could get it into shape fairly quick with other plant species. 

I should get new pics up in a day or two.


----------



## plantbrain

Some changes and I have a theme in mind later.
Rotala Sunset, Erio Compressum, and Ludwigia sphaerocarpa are all nice native USA plants that have recently come into the hobby via the work of fellow hobbyist.
Highlighting these species will be pretty much the central region of this tank. 

I have to move a couple of things and wait for the plants to grow in some more.
I'll also be adding as row of Syngonanthus uaupes in the front and hack back some of the UG.
I can move the Tonina to the rear section somewhere and add the Erio compressum there, or maybe Erio setaceum type 3, we will see. Depends if I can get good growth form from the Erio compressum. 
I might move the Tonina back to the far Right where it was before and then scratch the Syngonathus "madeira". 
I also have Hydrocotyle verticillata I may work in somewhere.

Another native I've never seen in aquarium other than one book is P. americana, a nice little grass like fern. I have to wait till spring to hunt for it. It's local for me. So that's 5 months away. 
Some groups need to grow out, some need added still, but the overall color and contrast is coming together.


----------



## plantbrain

The color of the L sphaerocarpa is better than when I had a row of it last time.
Perhaps some color shift from the bulbs over time.
I hope I can keep the colors up.
It's a fun easy plant to grow and scape with, not sure why it's not more sot after. 

As far as the color differences:
Not sure why, other than the new 9 liter's worth of ADA aqua soil. 
A few other plants responded very well. UG, Blood vomit, Rotala sunset etc. 
The Rotala mini butter on the other hand has not done as nicely. 
The rest have been pretty weedy.

R. mini butterfly has been a very easy plant in this and my other tanks.
So it's unusual there.


----------



## sjb1987

my sphaerocarpa is always wanting to creep and the leaves seem to grow on one side..yours on the other hand is growing towards the light.. i think mine is the variety from texas... maybe ill try moving it to a different spot in the tank and see if grows differently?


----------



## plantbrain

sjb1987 said:


> my sphaerocarpa is always wanting to creep and the leaves seem to grow on one side..yours on the other hand is growing towards the light.. i think mine is the variety from texas... maybe ill try moving it to a different spot in the tank and see if grows differently?


Mine has done this and some do it, and some do not.
I trim a fair amount, this can cause some of the tops to wrinkle if you keep cutting the tops and replanting too frequently.

I suppose the same can be said about R. sunset.

But the newer side shoots do not seem to do this much. It's a good self propagator, so I can sell off any stems that are not as nice.

Most seem to do the straight growth for me, I suppose if you have more current, or less light, then the plant might try to get some more light by growing sideways.

It's a sort of strange plant generally, but does very well for me.


----------



## accordztech

That must of been a pain in the butt to catch all those fish and shrimp


----------



## plantbrain

accordztech said:


> That must of been a pain in the butt to catch all those fish and shrimp


Not when there's no water in the tank.


----------



## sjb1987

plantbrain said:


> Not when there's no water in the tank.



This made me smile..thanks


----------



## plantbrain

Removed the rock on the wood finally. Stubborn piece I tell ya.
Wood is positioned a little bit off to a slant I do not like. Readjusting it will take awhile since it's still a bit light/buoyant. Removed the S belem, added the Erio setaceum type 3. Rotala sunset is doing very well, no die back after transplanting.

Will arrange the rear groups a bit more later. 

I'm shooting for finer needled plants in the background to give a better sense of depth. Someone pointed it out, and they are right.
Plants continue to do exceptionally well.


----------



## plantbrain

E. hydropiper is growing in after much replanting, the top sloped part is still getting uprooted by the elephant noses and shrimp. The soil is new and is lighter up in that section.






Blood vomits are doing well, and time to split a few already.


I need to find a better home of the S. uraupes and lago grade. 
I'll likely switch the UG with them and then move them back somewheres.

A few other minor changes I suppose.

E hydropiper is a PITA to get a larger decent rug if you have fish.
I have ample Belem grass and Monte carlo as well as HC if need be.
It grows, but fish go after it. It roots deeper than HC etc also, so it's weird to me. 

Speaking of which, I now have 100 Rasbora kubotai green neon.
Very nice fish, does not leap to it's death, but does not contrast well in this tank, so it might end up over in the 70 Gallon Buce tank. Nice fish though. 

I drilled some more holes in the wood and will add some more Mini pellia in those spots.
The tops of the wood are coming along well with this liverwort.


----------



## ua hua

It's filling in really nice Tom. There is a lot more depth in this version than your previous scapes. 

I really like the mini pellia but for some reason I haven't had luck with it. It looks good for awhile and then starts to brown and poof it's gone. Fissidens on the other hand is popping up all over the tank including places that I don't really want it but at least it's alive. Did you completely remove the Pantanal from this scape?


----------



## plantbrain

Yep, a pantanal strike.

I have plenty in my 180 Gallon.

Mini pellia did not do as well, but I got really toasted plants, but now I can take from the 70 Gallon Buce tank which has lots. Now is does very well. So good quality plants helps. If you let it build up too much, then it might self shade and fragment.

I thought it was the higher light.
But it was the condition of the Mini pellia I got. 
Also, how you stuff it onto branches etc, vs moss, a bit different and works better to not tie with string etc.
Stuff into cracks and leave it be ,a little patience goes a long way.


----------



## GDominy

I am extremely jealous of your plant collection. It is exceedingly difficult to get rare plants in my part of Canada. 

If you ever manage to get a shipment up here I would happily pay a ridiculous sum for cuttings


----------



## plantbrain

This is what the tank looked like after uprooting the EH, Cuphea and UG




Nice eh?

So when I folks whine about why the water is a little hazy, well, frankly they HAVE NO IDEA.

A day later it looks like this:

















The Erio compressum is a good fit in this location.


----------



## DennisSingh

beast.


----------



## Shawn123

I have to admit when you posted the pics after first redoing the tank I didn't think I liked it as much as the last setup. The updates since it has grown in have totally changed my mind. I love the new look. I wish I had your eye for laying out plants and also growing them so well. 
I really like the erio compressum, very eye catching there and I have never seen it incorporated into a scape like this where it looks like it belongs. 

Have you redone the buce tank yet? I have been anxiously awaiting an update on that as well.


----------



## plantbrain

Shawn123 said:


> I have to admit when you posted the pics after first redoing the tank I didn't think I liked it as much as the last setup. The updates since it has grown in have totally changed my mind. I love the new look. I wish I had your eye for laying out plants and also growing them so well.
> I really like the erio compressum, very eye catching there and I have never seen it incorporated into a scape like this where it looks like it belongs.
> 
> Have you redone the buce tank yet? I have been anxiously awaiting an update on that as well.


Yes, I'm happy with placing the Erio Compressum, it works much like the Ech agustifolia var. "vesuvius" sword plant.

I was looking for a smaller red sword like plant, and also an Erio to work with, but this worked nicely in the same spot as the Ludwigia red, but I needed to keep that still, but just narrowed the row.

Some of the reds are not quite what I want, but the tank still needs to fill in for the R sunset, R. mini butter fly etc in the rear and the Blood Vomits, I'm not entirely happy with them at the current location, I think a small row will work better for those. Similar to the Erio compressum. But they are so much smaller and darker, they offer a good contrast even though they have a similar general shape.

I can add a few different things to replace the Blood vomits in that spot, likely HC, MC, or similar. I might go back to the EH also for that spot. I'll moss the wood in the Blood vomit section also with Fissidens.

Fish are nice, but I have a good idea what will work better. They are really pretty green neon color, but it's lost in this gaudy colored tank.

Be better in the Buce subtle dark colored tank. 
Buce tank has grown on me. I added some more plants to the main piece and I'll allow the plants to engulf the wood pretty much entirely.

It'll be spring, summer before I redo it, unless..........I get a wild hair and just go after it one day. Hard to say, a mood thing.


----------



## Ach1Ll3sH33L

The joys of working with aqua soil... i think the death cloud it creates keeps me from fiddling with my tanks to often.. which can be a good thing sometimes. The blood vomit looks really nice, its just a small plant.. still cant seem to place mine well, they would look pretty killer against a sand substrate. I bet Stag repens would fit well in that row with a small strip of e.h in front of it


----------



## plantbrain

I'm tending towards a lot of finer needled plants and then some larger dramatic species.

But color rules for now.


----------



## Pg92

I must say Tom, Dutch style tanks do absolutely nothing for me... But the way you keep so many species of such a wide variety as happy and healthy as you do baffles me. I think too many people (myself included) worry about the equipment and scaping area of a planted aquarium more than what plants need and how to keep them in great health. Props to ya, everything looks phenomenal.


----------



## ua hua

The Erio Compressum fits in perfectly and really has me thinking about replacing the weedy bylxa that's in my tank. Aaron mentioned it some time ago and thought it might be too big but after seeing it I have changed my mind. People seeing it in your tank will help the demand for a plant not used very much. I have heard that it's hard to get to stay planted because of it's buoyancy. Have you had any problems with it wanting to float up on you and did you weigh it down when you planted it?


----------



## plantbrain

ua hua said:


> The Erio Compressum fits in perfectly and really has me thinking about replacing the weedy bylxa that's in my tank. Aaron mentioned it some time ago and thought it might be too big but after seeing it I have changed my mind. People seeing it in your tank will help the demand for a plant not used very much. I have heard that it's hard to get to stay planted because of it's buoyancy. Have you had any problems with it wanting to float up on you and did you weigh it down when you planted it?


Aaron' is correct and has tried a few different methods to keep it down till it gets well rooted.

Not common in the hobby.

But given it's like E. parkeri (also brought in from the same bunch of Hobbyists like Aaron himself), it should be widely available after 1-2 years I suspect.

One of my goals is to promote such Hobby based collecting and species that come into this hobby. we often do not think about our own back yard or country as a great source for potential NEW aquatic plant species.

There's 3 in this tank and more to come.
A farm tank with 1-2 test plants in it does not sell well, but a well scaped group of plants, and surrounded by strong contrast, most certainly does.

And with demand and usability, the plant will stick around in the hobby.
And of course, no one else has it or has a nice examples of it etc, makes for goodie points. I want to try new plants and also want folks not to be able to look at this tank and be able to name all the plants ....or even 60%. 

But color and contrast are still king, but texture is working it's way into this.
If the texture contrast works well, and the color scheme is still nice, I'm game to change it around. Just knowing what the heck your own limits are before changing something is a real chore, but once you figure it out, it's great.


----------



## plantbrain

Pg92 said:


> I must say Tom, Dutch style tanks do absolutely nothing for me... But the way you keep so many species of such a wide variety as happy and healthy as you do baffles me. I think too many people (myself included) worry about the equipment and scaping area of a planted aquarium more than what plants need and how to keep them in great health. Props to ya, everything looks phenomenal.


The dutch style is what 1st attracted me to Planted tanks.
I do nice nature style also and some stuff that's neither.
This is semi Dutch, but a long way from being a high ranking NBAT tank.
I also get to try out many species this way, so my color pallet is very expansive and knowledge with contrast, how the plants respond in groups/respond to pruning and scaping over time etc.

You learn more with hardscaping in nature style, but less about the plants. 
For the plant purist, the Dutch style has more features that would suit those with "collecteristis" or those that like to sell plants. I've made far more than winning the ADA contest might have made me in terms of $.

I'd have to say equipment and a nice location in the home, overall appearances are critical. Then the hardscape is still a very important aspect also.

My tank reflects those elements. Dutch NBAT tanks lack anywhere near the hardscaping and the lower trimmed species I use, but I use far more red than many. I can see the points being deducted now

A few of the ADA contest tanks used ample red. But not that many and certainly not like this. Some folks in the EU have some awesome red and thick plantings like my tanks. Both general styles have a lot to teach hobbyist and neither is an easy style to truly master. Takes time, practice and effort. 

Sort of depends. Over time some styles have grown on me more, as have some fish groups and hardscape materials. Blend well for 1-2 years, then pour out into a nice set up tank.


----------



## jimmyjam

great collection of plants tom. I also love that piece of driftwood beside the tank, how did you acquire that piece?


----------



## LailaSophia

Boss level 10! The princess in NOT in another castle!


----------



## plantbrain

Switched the lighting bulbs around to what my 180 gallon has.

1 Giesemann Aquaflora, then a 2 Red wave Wavepoint, then a 3 Sunwave Wavepoint, then a 4 Red Wave Wavepoint, then an 5 URI Red Sun, then a 6 Sunwave Wavepoint, then 7 Wavepoint Red Wave and lastly a 8 Giesemann aquaflora.

There's 4 pretty red colored bulbs, then the Aquafloras which are slightly pinkish but look white compared to the Red Waves and the Red Sun.
Then the blueish 12000K Sunwaves add a bit of blue to offset it, but not as intense as the ATI blue specials.

I had more blue and white in the prior bulb set.
So this should produce a better red coloration.

I did a quick check, but a full day of viewing is needed to assess. 


I collect my own wood and sell a fair amount.


----------



## aqua-botanicae

Tom, it's time for the aquascaping world to give name for your style.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ua hua

I'm curious about these red wave Wavepoint bulbs. I have never seen a red wave bulb by them or is this the Ultra growth wave? Are they red like the UVL red sun or more of a pink color like the Geismann Aquaflora? I have been thinking of getting rid of the purple plus and adding a different red/pink bulb to my tank but not sure if I want to try a different brand as I already have a brand new Aquaflora on hand. I have also heard that UVL is going to discontinue the red sun bulb and if they are I would like no find an alternative bulb or I will be buying a few of them to have on hand as I really like the way it makes the tank look after the initial shock of first seeing it on my tank passed.

Edit: after looking some more I found a place that has the red wave but would still like to hear your thoughts on the look of the bulb.

http://www.aquacon.com/WavepointT5Lightbulbs.html


----------



## plantbrain

The URI's are crazy freaky red, the Red Wave look a bit more like old school pink gro lux bulbs.

"Ultra" etc, those terms are more for the 10-14 k range bulbs.


I doubt this has much to do some much with the reflection also, I've taken plants from my 180 and compared with the 120 Gallon, the same ferts, sediment, water, filtration, fish loading/feeding, tap water, % water changes etc. 
CO2 is different, but both are pretty high there. O2 is similar.

In the same light, you can take a stem of different red plants, and under this new bulb configuration, the plants are visually redder.

I'd thought perhaps reflection alone would do this, and there's some truth to that. But if you take a stem out and compare from different bulbs types, you can see the difference. 

There may be other reasons involved, but...........I'll soon see if the hypothesis is tentatively correct or false.


----------



## plantbrain

Update on the light configuration:

1 Giesemann Aquaflora, then a 2 Zoomed Flora then a 3 Sunwave Wavepoint, then a 4 Red Wave Wavepoint, then an 5 URI Red Sun, then a 6 Sunwave Wavepoint, then 7 Zoomed Flora and lastly a 8 Giesemann aquaflora.

The Red waves are nice if you cannot get the Zoomeds, I did not like the Ultra(the Zoomed 12000K versions) as much as the Sunwave from Wavepoint. 
Zoomeds are top notch German bulbs for less cost than many Chinese bulbs.


----------



## plantbrain

New lighting:

PAR is virtually identical, but the red shift is a fair amount more. 
Might be from a few newer bulb additions.
Seems I'd tried this but did not like it in the past, but today, I seem to like it for some reason, so it shall stay.


----------



## synaethetic

The color of the reds certainly pop with your new bulb combo. the current arrangement and height of stems is most appealing to me.


----------



## exv152

plantbrain said:


> New lighting:
> 
> PAR is virtually identical, but the red shift is a fair amount more.
> Might be from a few newer bulb additions.
> Seems I'd tried this but did not like it in the past, but today, I seem to like it for some reason, so it shall stay.


How much PAR are you getting at the substrate? I think the new bulb configuration really makes the colours pop.


----------



## plantbrain

exv152 said:


> How much PAR are you getting at the substrate? I think the new bulb configuration really makes the colours pop.


110-140umol sediment
400-600 umol at the surface.

The range is wide due to the width of the hood vs the tank, hood is 18" and the tank is 30".

If the bulbs were spaced out say over 26", this would be ideal for this shaped tank, but that's not something the makers will offer for you.


----------



## plantbrain

Hacked most groups back today.





Not quite sure what type of Syngonanthus this is, I know I have a few that are S. "madiera"a dn one lago grande, but the short one does not look like the S. uaupes, but it also does not look like any of the others.


----------



## plantbrain

The Syngonanthus appears to be a new type, a short growing branch thing that is not S. uaupes or rio *****. 

So that is cool.

I'll still try and get some uaupes or ***** later, but.........this works well. 
Appears to be easy to grow, like S belem etc.


----------



## plantbrain

Hacked some today.
Main issues overall:

1. Erio setaceum type 3 is doing well and is starting to regrow the tops and they are doing nicely. I had my doubts for a few weeks there.
But it'll come back and full recovery and hopefully be as nice as I have about 1 year or two ago or so:
Center:





2. Other issue is the slow filling in of the EH on the Left corner. Perhaps finer ADA powder might help. It takes a while for it to really fill in compared to HC, Gloss, UG, etc. Which is good because then you do not need to trim it much.
But I'll need to be patient. At least it's staying much better rooted in this location than where the UG is now.


3. Sygonanthus on the left will fill in in due time. Not too worried about that. Thinking about changing the group shapes on that side some to better match the wood and growth patterns of the plant species.



4. Blood vomits. They just feel out of place in this scape. They have tripled in number and size. Nice little plant, but I have few sections where they can go effectively unfortunately.
If I get the real S uaupes, then they would be a natural or a mix of Monte Carlo in that sections, something bright green and low growing. Blood vomit will just not contrast well in this space.


5. Right corner has P stellata narrow right now, I wanted a yellow type of plant, but I might just fatten up the Erio type 3 as they grow out more. 










Top view of the left Stump all "Mini Pelliaed"





Close up of the Elatine hydropiper. It has not uprooted much here even with all the critters poking around on it. The sediment is finer here and the water comes straight down on top of it.
Seems to do well even though there's less light in the corner. So maybe light is less a factor than I thought it was.





This is about where I had it before a year or two ago:


Top view:


----------



## Wolf19

plantbrain said:


> Update on the light configuration:
> 
> 1 Giesemann Aquaflora, then a 2 Zoomed Flora then a 3 Sunwave Wavepoint, then a 4 Red Wave Wavepoint, then an 5 URI Red Sun, then a 6 Sunwave Wavepoint, then 7 Zoomed Flora and lastly a 8 Giesemann aquaflora.
> 
> The Red waves are nice if you cannot get the Zoomeds, I did not like the Ultra(the Zoomed 12000K versions) as much as the Sunwave from Wavepoint.
> Zoomeds are top notch German bulbs for less cost than many Chinese bulbs.


Hey Tom,

Thank you for detailing your bulb choice. After this I'm currently rethinking my current fixture set up. I'm running 1 Giesemann Midday, 2 Giesemann Aquaflora and 1 Giesemann Midday. I've struggled with developing a strong red colour in my plants. I can purchase both the Zoomed and Wavepoint bulbs. With my 3 bulb fixture is there any suggestions you'd make? 

I was thinking 1. Aquaflora 2. Sunwave Daylight (12,000K) and 1. Red wave? Thanks in advance for any suggestions / help.


----------



## plantbrain

3 bulbs offers less mixing choices and such.

I'd likely use a Pair of Zoomed Flora's and then a Ultra(basically a white blue color).

You might do a Giesemann aquaflora in place of one of the Zoomed Floras also.


----------



## plantbrain

Different camera:


----------



## !shadow!

That's a lot of pink coming from the ati  looks great tho


----------



## plantbrain

Yes a fair amount I'd say too, but........red is king.


----------



## plantbrain

Redid some stuff, have an open house coming up with the SF club.







I will redo the Blood vomits, the Hydrothrix will fill in a lot in the next 1-2 weeks, it's a weed.
I moved the Erio setaceum to the back, they did better there. 
I uprooted all the A. reineckii mini and replanted them last week. I'll replant a could of other things, trim some of the faster growers 1-2x more times before the open house.








HC is insanely nice compared to messing with the E hydropiper. 5-10X easier.


----------



## 180g

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:red_mouth


----------



## FlyingHellFish

plantbrain said:


> HC is insanely nice compared to messing with the E hydropiper. 5-10X easier.


What wrong with E hydropiper compare to HC Cuba? I never tried hydropiper and was thinking doing a carpet of them. Do you have a close up of the HC Cuba?

Oh and that is one fat Otos catfish in the third picture!


----------



## plantbrain

HC grows faster, roots better, makes a denser carpet over time. 
Fish or shrimp even can uproot the ET.

But ET is 1/2 the size. It does well, but can uproot easily. 

Not that HC is great there, but it's a cake walk compared.


----------



## FlyingHellFish

How old is your AS in that tank? Do you have to reup with new AS? I'm doing some rescaping and it seem like I'm losing a fair bit of AS due to the rocks crushing the soil ball into powder. The bottom is like coarse mud.


----------



## lamiskool

Finally saw this tank in person and man was it a beauty! Thanks again for hosting and putting up with my dog!


----------



## DennisSingh

I've never understood why the plant in the back left corner is there? I think its hygrophilia of some sort, never did like it compared to the rest of the ill tank


----------



## AGUILAR3

Must watch.


----------



## BruceF

Great Video!


----------



## umarnasir335

Dang, Tom is completely different in real life than what I imagined him to be 
Really nice of you to invite everyone over for a view at your tanks, I wish I could be there as well


----------



## Hendy8888

I have to ask what light is on your 120 in the video AGUILAR3 posted? Doesn't look like the normal ATI that's in all your pictures.


----------



## plantbrain

Had an open house Sat, lots of folks, food and yacking. 

ATI fixture died on me Weds night, toyed with me till Friday evening with fixing it, never happened. 
Plan B was going to a LFS or some other place to buy something for the meanwhile. 

All the medical weed they sell here= tons of high end hydroponics' places. 
Got a 8x54 T5 fixture to hand for 190$. 

So with 2 hours before the meeting I get home with the new light and 40 people coming to the house, I put the light on the tank with about 1 hour to spare. 
Plants where very pale, but decent, better than I thought. 

Nice spread also, 8.5" wider than the ATI, not hideous, but I'll need to add some modifications.
Hood is 26" wide, not 17.5 like the ATI.





I will add some modifications so I can use the wire suspension later this week. 





For the FTS whiners:









I did not do much to the tank since the light went out Weds.

Needs some trimming and care.

Bump:


lamiskool said:


> Finally saw this tank in person and man was it a beauty! Thanks again for hosting and putting up with my dog!


Tougher on the dog than it was for us.

Bump:


Hendy8888 said:


> I have to ask what light is on your 120 in the video AGUILAR3 posted? Doesn't look like the normal ATI that's in all your pictures.


So the post right after yours.

Nothing like a visit from Murphy :tongue:


----------



## plantbrain

StrungOut said:


> I've never understood why the plant in the back left corner is there? I think its hygrophilia of some sort, never did like it compared to the rest of the ill tank


Careful or I'll send some your way and plant a lawn in your front yard

It's a nice well behaved red plant that has a different leaf shape compared to the others, used for contrast and lower light locations. Easy to trim etc.


----------



## Centromochlus

How old was that ATI fixture?


----------



## HybridHerp

plantbrain said:


> Careful or I'll send some your way and plant a lawn in your front yard
> 
> 
> 
> It's a nice well behaved red plant that has a different leaf shape compared to the others, used for contrast and lower light locations. Easy to trim etc.



Is it araguia or lance? I have a hard time telling them apart (it's mostly growth pattern difference right?)


----------



## exv152

The tank looks great. I like how you've used smaller leafed plants in the forefront like HC, UG and riccardia. It adds more green and softens the overall look. And I don't mind the new fixture, it kinda works.


----------



## plantbrain

New fixture has a few VERY good attributes:

1.
26" wide, so I get a nicer even spread over the entire area. Less intensity, but better spread and angles of light hitting the leaves and penetrating deeper into the canopy. I'm not really looking for MORE PAR, just even PAR.

2.
Cost, 190$ out the door. ATI: about 800$.

3.
Weight, while larger, it weights LESS.

4.
I can modify and put notched into the light frame to hold the wire suspension I have from the old ATI. This will look much nicer than the old ugly black cords.

5. I can gut the ballast out of the old ATI fixture and replace with standard E ballast. Then use just like a non dimmer ATI fixture. Someone will buy that for a decent price I figure.

6. Since the PAR is LESS and the Spread is wider...............I can lower the fixture down right above the top of the tank. The old ATI, I could do that also, but I'd only light the back 2/3'rds or the front 2/3's of the tank, not the entire tank. 


the Bad?

1. Uglier and less discrete

2. Non dimming unless I used dimmable ballast and used an apex controller etc. 



Bump:


Centromochlus said:


> How old was that ATI fixture?


Maybe not quite 2 years?

Replaced 2 ballast in it during that time. 
My other ATI's have all worked without issues.

Just this one was very problematic.


----------



## ua hua

That sucks about your light but at least you have the ability to find one that works locally. No pot farmers in Nebraska so I would have to order online or drive to Colorado where there is plenty of growers. I have heard of a few people having problems with their ATI fixtures which is sad because at their cost they should be more reliable. 

I wish TEK fixtures would come out with a dimmable fixture because they are well built lights. I wonder if the dimming causes the ballast to fail after time. Maybe the reason there isn't more dimmable t5's on the market.


----------



## plantbrain

Tek is worse than this new light I have. Cost more, but it's thinner than this one. So aesthetics is the best thing for the Tek, the light output was 50% LESS than the ATI and the fixtures have the same bulb spacing and hood thickness. 

I'm not impressed and had a few Tek's, they never broke however


----------



## DvanK

umarnasir335 said:


> Dang, Tom is completely different in real life than what I imagined him to be ...


Yeah lol I expected to see Steve Wozniak


----------



## Centromochlus

plantbrain said:


> My other ATI's have all worked without issues.
> 
> Just this one was very problematic.


Good to hear. I bought a new 4x24w dimmable ATI about a month ago and haven't even had the chance to put bulbs in it yet... your post was making me reconsider my investment... hopefully i won't have similar issues with mine!


----------



## 180g

wow! the new light shows of the colors more I think. I have to ask, how much par at the substrate with the new light? I have a 180g that currently has about 60 par and I am able to add 2 shop lights to it that would add about another 20 par each and I wanted to know if that would be a good idea or not to go that high of light. what do you think?


----------



## HybridHerp

180g said:


> wow! the new light shows of the colors more I think. I have to ask, how much par at the substrate with the new light? I have a 180g that currently has about 60 par and I am able to add 2 shop lights to it that would add about another 20 par each and I wanted to know if that would be a good idea or not to go that high of light. what do you think?



Are you pumping the co2 in? Cause without co2 I would go any higher.


----------



## 180g

I currently don't have a co2 system but I am getting one. I don't have the lights on yet any ways since there are no plants.


----------



## plantbrain

DvanK said:


> Yeah lol I expected to see Steve Wozniak


I'm in much better shape. But he's richer.

Bump:


180g said:


> I currently don't have a co2 system but I am getting one. I don't have the lights on yet any ways since there are no plants.


Go tip top with CO2, and ghetto with light, not tip top max with the lights, then Ghetto or none with the gas.

Most learn this the hard way. 

My tank could not exist without darn good CO2.
High light is optional.

It only makes things harder with bad CO2 and algae management.


----------



## Nugget

Happy birthday TOM!!


----------



## 180g

thanks for the advice tom! what ppm of co2 do you keep this tank at?


----------



## plantbrain

180g said:


> thanks for the advice tom! what ppm of co2 do you keep this tank at?


55ppm or thereabouts.

A bit less than my 180. 

But the O2 is higher 7.5 at night, 11 during the end of the light cycle. 
Pretty high.


----------



## HybridHerp

plantbrain said:


> 55ppm or thereabouts.
> 
> 
> 
> A bit less than my 180.
> 
> 
> 
> But the O2 is higher 7.5 at night, 11 during the end of the light cycle.
> 
> Pretty high.



How are you able to measure your O2 ppm?


----------



## plantbrain

HybridHerp said:


> How are you able to measure your O2 ppm?


Hach HQ40 and a HACH LDO O2 probe calibrated.


----------



## plantbrain

Got some nice Gratiloa today and will replant the tank tonight or tomorrow and then get some new pics, I removes the HC and made a new section for it. 

Need to find a good location for the Blood vomits. Working on some new ideas for hardscaping the little suckers within the tank.

And after August or so, I likely will redo the hardscape again.


----------



## Aquadawg

plantbrain said:


> Need to find a good location for the Blood vomits.


I will gladly donate space in my tank... Give, give, give!


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

plantbrain said:


> Hach HQ40 and a HACH LDO O2 probe calibrated.


I was going to say a Winkler's test but that's way too much work haha.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> I was going to say a Winkler's test but that's way too much work haha.


The Hach LDO's are excellent and EPA and Standard Methods approved. 
They calibrate and no dang membranes(I hated those).

Cost a lot more though.

But make the process much more convenient and accurate.


----------



## Aquarium_Alex

This tank looks AMAZING!!! 

Why do all the great aquascapers live on the west coast?!


----------



## Harrisgo

plantbrain said:


> no dang membranes(I hated those).


 
Mind your bubbles!!


----------



## gus6464

Tom is your wave point sun wave a very crisp white or does it lean more to the side of blue? I am looking for a bright crisp white to mask the intensity of a UVL red sun, wavepoint ultra cola and coral wave.


----------



## plantbrain

Harrisgo said:


> Mind your bubbles!!


Then if you get the membranes too tight, they break when you put the Rubber gaskets on, always something. 

45 minutes later and 2 busted membranes.........


----------



## plantbrain

gus6464 said:


> Tom is your wave point sun wave a very crisp white or does it lean more to the side of blue? I am looking for a bright crisp white to mask the intensity of a UVL red sun, wavepoint ultra cola and coral wave.


Warmer than the ATI blue specials, but slight blue hint. 

Zoomed's Ultra also will do this.
Wavepoint are available widely and cheap though.
Zoomed are excellent quality bulbs though.


----------



## pandacory

I follow a few of your tanks. They all turn out wonderfully, and you seem to do all styles well. Do you have a preference for a given tank dimension or proportions?


----------



## Retrogamer82

Hi Tom,

Any issues with the Raspboras jumping?


----------



## plantbrain

pandacory said:


> I follow a few of your tanks. They all turn out wonderfully, and you seem to do all styles well. Do you have a preference for a given tank dimension or proportions?


I had some personal fears about different sizes I'd never worked with, front the back depth is awesome, that did not bother me. Length on the other hand, it did. 

If you see the 1st belem grass version of the 70 Gallon, I used the wood like rock, so it is more a matter of of WHAT hardscaping materials I might have, rather than some preference for wood versus stone. I love stone, but am rarely happy with the quality.

Wood is easier to modify and weighs less and I have tons of it. 

But I'd had fears of the 4ft tank length for some time. 
This tank put those to rest.

In some ways, finding your hardscape materials and display,................then making a custom tank based around that....is likely the best route. Not a lot of people have done that I think. 

3 ft, yes, 6 ft great, larger sizes never bothered me really. 

2 ft is not easy, but we all have worked with those if you have done this awhile. 

Good question ....I might add. :thumbsup:

Bump:


Retrogamer82 said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Any issues with the Raspboras jumping?



Not really. Surprising. The green Kubotai also have stopped jumping out. They look decent with the pork chops.


----------



## pandacory

Thanks for the input!

I've been struggling with the decision making for some time. I want to step up into a high end setup, but the cash outlay means I will have to actually keep it for a while. Funny thing is that that will probably be more cost effective than continuously swapping out of the standard fair.

Do you have any opinions on the ada 75p? It isn't a size that you come across often in the hobby, but I keep coming back to it. The 90p is pretty big for a renter, and I suspect the 60p will get too small too quickly.

Do you feel there is any advantage among the different styles to having the golden ratio length:height, or do you find some longer lower proportion more versatile?


----------



## plantbrain

Get one of those Mr Aqua 24x18x18 tanks. Cheap and a nicer size.

Bump: 

Bump:


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

pandacory said:


> Thanks for the input!
> 
> I've been struggling with the decision making for some time. I want to step up into a high end setup, but the cash outlay means I will have to actually keep it for a while. Funny thing is that that will probably be more cost effective than continuously swapping out of the standard fair.
> 
> Do you have any opinions on the ada 75p? It isn't a size that you come across often in the hobby, but I keep coming back to it. The 90p is pretty big for a renter, and I suspect the 60p will get too small too quickly.
> 
> Do you feel there is any advantage among the different styles to having the golden ratio length:height, or do you find some longer lower proportion more versatile?


The 75P certainly is an awkward "in-between" compared to the 60P and 90P. It is also not as long when compared to width and height vs. them. I would recommend mocking up the dimensions of it in wherever you're planning to put it, so you can see what the different sizes look like. Also, remember to get permission from your landlord.


----------



## plantbrain

PAR data for the new cheapo Hydroponic fixture:

This surprised me, I noticed nicer growth, but felt it was due to spread, and in a way, it is. 
I lower the light about 6" versus the old ATI, but the spread is more even so that's okay. 
Middle surface, : 305-325, about 280 at the ends. 
The tops of the ground cover: 120-135umol, this is higher than the ATI was, but 14" versus 7" height.
VERY even over the sediment. 

This fixture is FAR superior to that of the Tek fixtures which go for 2x this amount. 

While the distance for the fixture is LESS than the ATI, the spread is more even and you can lower the fixture down more because of the evenness of the spread of the light, it's less light a point source like say a metal halide. 

Tek was roughly 50% less PAR, so 70umol vs say 120-130 umols.

The fixture is not as pretty as the Tek and the Tek is not as pretty as the ATI, but....for this tank's 30" width, this is a nice single fixture. 

Now perhaps 2 ATI fixtures might do better, but then you are talking a lot of $$, much more.


----------



## talontsiawd

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> The 75P certainly is an awkward "in-between" compared to the 60P and 90P. It is also not as long when compared to width and height vs. them. I would recommend mocking up the dimensions of it in wherever you're planning to put it, so you can see what the different sizes look like. Also, remember to get permission from your landlord.


I agree, I know it's Tom's thread and asking for his advice. Most ADA tanks are similar to regular tanks, a bit shorter or taller but the 75P doesn't really have an equivalent. Never done one but it seems like interesting dimensions. However, unless LED, it's hard to find a true 30in light. A 60P, IMO, is a small tank, a 90P, more than 2x as big. The 75P may work for you, it's just hard to compare to standard tanks.


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer's tank is the same size, a 18X18X24, it's a really nice shape tank.
Mr Aqua brand tanks run maybe 150$ or so. Not bad.

I'm down for one to replace the ADA 60p myself.


----------



## pandacory

plantbrain said:


> George Farmer's tank is the same size, a 18X18X24, it's a really nice shape tank.
> Mr Aqua brand tanks run maybe 150$ or so. Not bad.
> 
> I'm down for one to replace the ADA 60p myself.


I'll have to see how you deal with the proportions. 18" seems very tall on a 24" wide tank. Almost cube like. While I am fond of the shallow squares, I've never cared for cubes.

the 75p is basically a 29gallon with 6" extra front to back depth


----------



## jccaclimber

plantbrain said:


> PAR data for the new cheapo Hydroponic fixture:
> 
> This surprised me, I noticed nicer growth, but felt it was due to spread, and in a way, it is.
> I lower the light about 6" versus the old ATI, but the spread is more even so that's okay.
> Middle surface, : 305-325, about 280 at the ends.
> The tops of the ground cover: 120-135umol, this is higher than the ATI was, but 14" versus 7" height.
> VERY even over the sediment.
> 
> This fixture is FAR superior to that of the Tek fixtures which go for 2x this amount.
> 
> While the distance for the fixture is LESS than the ATI, the spread is more even and you can lower the fixture down more because of the evenness of the spread of the light, it's less light a point source like say a metal halide.
> 
> Tek was roughly 50% less PAR, so 70umol vs say 120-130 umols.
> 
> The fixture is not as pretty as the Tek and the Tek is not as pretty as the ATI, but....for this tank's 30" width, this is a nice single fixture.
> 
> Now perhaps 2 ATI fixtures might do better, but then you are talking a lot of $$, much more.



If I remember correctly you mentioned the ATI throwing a lot less light in to the rest of your room. With this new fixture is that still true, or is that a willing price to pay for having more uniform lighting within the tank? Have you had to clean the glass any more often?


----------



## plantbrain

This new fixture sprays more light into the room than the ATI.
But I make up for that by lowing the hood closer to the plants.


----------



## Aquadawg

Tom Barr? Plantbrain? come to think of it, I have never seen the two together...


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## HybridHerp

That's a great shot.


----------



## pandacory

Awesome! Looks like birds and clouds.


----------



## AnotherHobby

That's a really cool photo! It makes the tank look super tall! It can be hard to get a perspective that shows depth with aquarium photos, but you nailed it here.


----------



## Aquadawg

AnotherHobby said:


> That's a really cool photo! It makes the tank look super tall! It can be hard to get a perspective that shows depth with aquarium photos, but you nailed it here.


+1 Nice looking coral moss too eh, Another hobby?


----------



## AnotherHobby

Aquadawg said:


> +1 Nice looking coral moss too eh, Another hobby?


:thumbsup:


----------



## plantbrain

I'll redo the entire tank and break it down 100% likely in Oct or November.

It will be time.


----------



## plantbrain

I'll redo the entire tank and break it down 100% likely in Oct or November.

It will be time.


----------



## Retrogamer82

Hi Tom,

I've followed this tank from the beginning. I know youre using ADA AS but over the 3 years of this tank, what if anything have you done to maintain the substrate? I have seen a few places where you mentioned adding more. Was this usually to get the slope back or was there more to it? Basically I am asking, if I wanted to set up a tank over a similar lifespan, how much AS should I have stocked piled besides what initially goes into the tank.

I am getting ready to start up a tank that I bought most of the supplies for over two years ago (military life is most unpredictable), including the ADA AS (still in original packaging). Would you have second thoughts of using substrate thats this old?

Thanks for your time.

Bump:


plantbrain said:


> I'll redo the entire tank and break it down 100% likely in Oct or November.
> 
> It will be time.


Sweet. Can't wait.

Whereabouts is the 180 in its lifecycle?


----------



## Ben Belton

Retrogamer82 said:


> including the ADA AS (still in original packaging).


I'm with you there. I have Aqusoil that is 9 years old still in the original packaging and a tank that is about 10 years old that has never seen water. Life is just unpredictable in general. :smile:


----------



## plantbrain

The soil I've added is often the old stuff I collected from client's who changed their minds, so it's old and has little N left.

I rarely add new soil to old soil, I want a similar life out of the entire batch, not a mix of 1, 2,3 year old soil together. 

I do add some old soil to a new tank, then add 95% new ADA AS or more. Just to seed the new tank fast and will not clean the filters that much, just siphon out all the old mulm that collected under the wet/dry, but the media I will not clean when I do a new set up. 

Plants also are loaded with bacteria and cycle things rapidly if in good shape when you break the tank down and then replant them say a 1 day later. 

So, I'm not sure how much soil to have on hand, always better to have too much than not enough.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## plantbrain

New bulbs, added another Red sun URI.


----------



## Live Aloha

Beautiful reds. How many Red Sun bulbs do you run?


----------



## plantbrain

2 right now, they are in the middle and the mid front.


----------



## ConfidentBlue

Absolutely Stunning. I can never get enough of your tank Tom.


----------



## AnotherHobby

Wow, those new bulbs make this tank pop even more! (if possible)


----------



## plantbrain

I would not have used 2 of the Red sun's in the past. It takes some time to get use to just how red they are.

BTW, the image is not photoshopped, it's a raw resized imaged. That's the only post processing I've done.


----------



## plantbrain

Did some more work and changed the row scheme and the color scheme back to what I wanted. 

Adding a nice row of a new species of Erio I've not kept before. 

Likely will get softball sized but different than the E compressum.


----------



## HybridHerp

Which Erio or are you making us wait for the pictures?


----------



## plantbrain

Not happy ATM with this, but I'll work on things and fix it so I am. 
Have some Hottonia coming in this week, so it'll fill in some of the gaps.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## Chris Noto

That last pic is crazy, baby!


----------



## oldpunk78

I never thought I'd see a planted tank with too much color. This tank while epic is on the verge. I don't know. I'm sure it would strike me differently in person. Seeing all at once in a pic is probably very different from in person when you don't focus on the whole thing at once.

I don't think I'm even qualified to critique this though. Can't wait to see what you 'fix'.


----------



## D.Rodgers

Amazing. What's the orange plant in the front.


----------



## creekbottom

When trimming stem plants how do you keep the patches looking like that? Are you trimming and replanting tops all the time?


----------



## plantbrain

Fire shrimp really have sustained well in this tank, I broke the tank down about a year ago and redid things, so I was able to remove 100% of all the livestock and added back only the top grades, maybe 50 or so.........they repopulated quick and the group is fairly stable at the higher grades these days. 

Very hard to kill. 








Bump:


oldpunk78 said:


> I never thought I'd see a planted tank with too much color. This tank while epic is on the verge. I don't know. I'm sure it would strike me differently in person. Seeing all at once in a pic is probably very different from in person when you don't focus on the whole thing at once.
> 
> I don't think I'm even qualified to critique this though. Can't wait to see what you 'fix'.


Well, the other tanks are much more sublime on the color scale.
I redid the reef filtration so I removed the corals, but that will be gaudy colored also.

So variety basically and different methods. Eventually a Rift cichlid tank will be added.


----------



## BruceF

I would say that most of the time this tank looks contrived but these last few pictures of the harlequins look quite "natural" at least in a gardening kind of way. Maybe it is just the angle but I like it much better.


----------



## plantbrain

BruceF said:


> I would say that most of the time this tank looks contrived but these last few pictures of the harlequins look quite "natural" at least in a gardening kind of way. Maybe it is just the angle but I like it much better.


Wide angle lens makes most tanks look much better in that regard, you have been conditioned to see that are the norm rather than the exception. 
My goal has nothing to do with "Nature style" or natural look, it's a colorful loosely organized garden. The 70 Gallon is more nature style/natural, but even there, the other fish species I tried did not pop out enough, so the white neons were used instead. 
The Rasboras do work nicely in the 120 Gallon though. A very clear winning fish for the scape regardless of styles. 

I use a simple point and shoot for most pics, but I have higher end stuff but generally rarely use it for aquarium snap shots, which is mostly what I take for post on the web. Higher end pics are worth $, so I do not put them on line generally since a lot of pics are stolen and lifted. 

Bump: Here's a point and shot snap shot right after a large rework I did last night:


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## BruceF

I am thinking more of Gertude Jekyll and say Piet Oudolf if you know who they are. Clumps instead of swaths or something. I am not sure what I am after really but I see something in those side views that I like a lot. 

Are you related to Claude? I ran into that name the other day when reading about Penstemons.


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## Axelrodi202

Tom are the rasboras breeding in your tank?


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## plantbrain

Axelrodi202 said:


> Tom are the rasboras breeding in your tank?


No, not yet, Fire shrimp only so far, the G. elephas are a bit feisty, so that and the gold nuggets are the issues really.

Bump:


BruceF said:


> I am thinking more of Gertude Jekyll and say Piet Oudolf if you know who they are. Clumps instead of swaths or something. I am not sure what I am after really but I see something in those side views that I like a lot.
> 
> Are you related to Claude? I ran into that name the other day when reading about Penstemons.


Thanks, you justified the aesthetic you are interested in. Not always easy to do that. 

I know of and am aware of those two. I tend to prefer more street paths dominate and then the clumps for transitions. With this hardscape, the focus is more on the streets, less on the clumps. So the hardscape defined much of what I've done here. 

Clumps tend to be more the Dutch aesthetic with a few streets, but only a a limited number. I'm not so rigid in this view, like your prior comments, one could suggest "the clumping looks contrived" also.

Depends on how you do the styles and pull it off at the end that seems to matter. Adding some touches of moss, Riccardia, some aspects................that aid in transitions. Adding to the Dutch aesthetic a bit of the "Nature style" element to soften and mix.........

That becomes a bit tougher to do. 

I mostly redo the tank, think about some new species and what might look best for a given shade or mix of plants. I try it out and then see if I like it.
If it feels good to me, then I stick with it. 

I do not analyze much, if at all. 
That sort of ruins it. 
You can end up BSing yourself:redface:


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## plantbrain




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## ua hua

I have never been a huge fan of Harlequins but they look great in your tank. 

Great pictures that really show the sense of depth that you have created. Makes me wish I had a tank that had a 24" width. You can do a lot more with those 6 inches.


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## plantbrain

Tank is 30 inches front to back depth.


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## Sub1117

What spectrum are the bulbs?


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## ua hua

plantbrain said:


> Tank is 30 inches front to back depth.


I thought it looked rather deep front to back. I would rather have the front to back depth and have my tank only 18" tall rather than 24". Those really are the perfect dimensions.


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## plantbrain

18" means you trim a lot more, 2x as much vs the 24" height. 

I think 22-24 and then 36" front the back is best, but that's a big old tank then.
I'll do something like that when I sell off the 180 and replace with a pair of larger tanks.


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## SwampGremlin

Tank looks awesome. Hey where are you guys finding 48" Red Sun Bulbs im have Trouble finding them in stock anywhere.


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## Overfloater

Unfortunately the 48" Red Sun has been discontinued as far as I can tell.


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## jccaclimber

SwampGremlin said:


> Tank looks awesome. Hey where are you guys finding 48" Red Sun Bulbs im have Trouble finding them in stock anywhere.


I cleaned out SaltySupply when they closed. A year or two ago I talked with Premium Aquatics in Indianapolis and they were able to get them, but weren't willing to order any unless I wanted to buy the box of 12. Apparently they don't get requests for them very often.

Seeing this reminds me that I do miss this thread. Lots of inspiring pictures and some interesting information as well.


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