# zero water change 20 and a 75 - *UPDATE 56k hehe*



## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

havent posted any pictures or much of anything lately, just been lurking. summer has sucked, got laid off a a job, struggled finding a new one so the tanks havent really done a whole lot. eveyrthing i have is trimmings and such from the same tank or another one but here are two pictures of the 2 main tanks i keep.









20 long. been yo for close to 2 years now, has yet to have a water change. emperor tetras breed every few months in it









the discus hut formally the cess pool cause it ws just nasty looking but its coming around. still have plans for it. 

lemme know what you think, oh and no co2 is used in either


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## Roc (Mar 16, 2007)

What does moon lit mean???/

Great looking tanks I wish I didn't have to add CO2 and do weekly water changes and end up with a tank that looks 1/4 as good as either of yours.....


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

thanks. moonlit is just sometime i have on them..at night time when i feel like it i have moon lights installed on them so the tanks shimmer blue. here an old kinda bad picture of them on the 20..


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## Roc (Mar 16, 2007)

I thought you were refering to a type or style of lighting, I have "moonlights" on my tanks a swell but your sig refers to _10 Gallon Eco, Moonlights, Not much else_ I thought you grew plants with just moonlights or something


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

Very cool, especially the 20 gallon. Do you have very soft source water for your top offs?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

no my water isnt very soft, its not very hard either. its just whatever comes out of the tap then dechlored. no science here whatso ever.


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## CampCreekTexas (Feb 28, 2007)

NIIIIIIICE! What kind of filtration do you have on those?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

20 has a HOB whisper 20

75 has an xp3


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## CampCreekTexas (Feb 28, 2007)

Thanks for the info, Geoff. Man, they look really beautiful.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Similar to my tanks (each a bit smaller though, 55 and 10) I hate waterchanges and they get them once in a while, all top offs dechlorinated breeding RCS and Black Diamonds...

No CO2, just some excel here and there.

Looks good.

-Andrew


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

those are absolutely amazing tanks for no co2. can you list the specs of each of the tanks? lighting, dosing if applicable, etc.


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## ikuzo (Jul 11, 2006)

don't you have any problem with no water change?


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## dudleystinks (Apr 9, 2005)

nice one, i have to admit i rarely do water changes either and have no problems. I even have a marine tank where i havnt changed the water for 3 years :icon_roll


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## lemonlime (Sep 24, 2006)

danepatrick said:


> those are absolutely amazing tanks for no co2. can you list the specs of each of the tanks? lighting, dosing if applicable, etc.


Ditto.

Extremely interested


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

They are very easy to care for, no water changes, stable, lazy tanks, generally easier plants, or at least a good part of the biomass are more aggressive easier to grow plants.

There's just a very strong CO2 enrichment bias on most forums/boards.
Many just do not know how or assume it cannot be done or cannot keep their medddling hands out of the tank, or cannot stand not to do a water change.

For those that espouse "Less is more", I cannot see why anyone would not be all for this method. No CO2 takes a huge headache out of all this. Growth is pretty slow except for a few of the faster growers, but the results are actually quite nice.

The tanks often look better on any given day than the CO2 enriched tank:icon_cool 

No testing, no dosing(well, fish food and maybe once a week dosing if you want to tweak some), no water changes, no CO2, cheap etc.

Balance that fish load with the plant biomass and things will go well.

This is often a goal for many newbies, but they are often bull dogged into CO2 enrichment and/or high light.

Excel can add another level of tweaking and algae control if desired or if you want to do more fish loading and need to do more frequent water changes monthly, 2 weeks etc.

Then you can grow virtually any plant with that method(Excel, some traces(TMG etc)). I saw some awesome planted tanks recently in Taiwan that had no water changes, no testing, not ferts other than Traces, soil sediment, Excel and a fish load.

They had not done any water changes for about 9 months.
Looks as good as any CO2 enriched tank as far as the method.

Regards, 
Tom Barr



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

Woa.... Is this something new? Why has everyone been telling me co2 and light then? I would like to do something like that... I believe in a balanced aquarium that has its own eco-system. But what happens to the accumulated wastes/solids? Dont they have an impact on the fish? I also believe the fish load will be limited.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

danepatrick said:


> those are absolutely amazing tanks for no co2. can you list the specs of each of the tanks? lighting, dosing if applicable, etc.


Sure thing. i'll do the best i can. 

20 long
Lighting is 1 corlife t5, the stock 30" hood with 24" 20 watt flour tube NO - total 56 watts 
substrate is pure flourite
doesing - feed the fish once a day, fish go pee and poop, cherry shrimp/snail life cycle. ( btw i forgot to mention, there are like hundreds of cherrys in there )

75 gallon
lighting 2x coralife t5 @ 56 watts each, 2x55 PC total of 222 watts/2.96 wpg
substrate is pure flourite
doseing - heaivy fish load and feeding twice a day. excell if i buy it. 

thats about it for what do to these tanks. the 75 gets a water change every now and then but its none of that weekly waterchanges for discus nonsense.


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## lemonlime (Sep 24, 2006)

Thanks for the info Tom and Geoff

I wish more people, including myself were exposed to this kind of tank more often.

Ah well, money is spent so I may as well pursue what the "high tech" tank has to offer.

Nice tanks though Geoff, respect.


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

I completely agree, the tanks are gorgeous. On the 20 Gal, do you have any algae problems? I'm thinking of setting up a new 20gal for neons/cardinals/rummynoses and RCS. I'm was thinking of low light, co2, and water changes.....but I hate water changes....so do you think I could pull of a gorgeous tank like yours, with like 20-30 fish and 10-20 shrimp, while keeping everything healthy and clean looking?
P.S. Won't a substantial fish load cause an efficient co2/o2 recycling process that will benefit the plants?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

yes the fish load does help but remember fish can only breathe and poop so much. 

i dont have much algae problems. it has green spot, which lets be honest most people will get, it had BBA - excel treated and cleared it, now it has some clado but im gonna buy a bottle of excel soon and get rid of it that way.


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## McgJosh (Jun 4, 2006)

I am wondering why you chose flourite? I am looking to setup a low tech tank and it seems a lot of succesful low tech tanks are using flourite, but I think I prefer the look eco-complete. Is there a reason other than looks you chose this substrate over eco-complete?

What kind of filter do you have on the 20 long? What is that foreground plant?

Excuse the newb questions, but you tank looks great and I just want to learn something from you.


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## keith00 (Mar 6, 2007)

Beautiful tanks.

I have just started a 65 gal(UK) and a 150 gal(UK) low tec tank about 6 weeks ago and hope they will look as good as yours in due course.


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

I agree. You dont need CO2, super high light, this and that and ... I have never EVER used any of what is recommended for creating a beautiful planted tank. Well.... I use plant recommendations and fish bioloads but thats about it. I do waterchanges when it looks like my fish need it which is maybe once a month, if that. I have a 20gal High with a 15 watt fluorescent bulb in it. Currently in it I have TONS of Java moss and Java Fern. I had giant Hygro and sunset Hygro in it as well, but i gave those away because they grew too fast and took up too much space. Fish Load is 17 Harlequin Rasboras and 3 Peppered Corys. Lights are on when I wake up which varies depending on the time I work and off when I go to bed. So maybe 14 hours? give or take about 2 hours depending on the work day or movie night. Substrate is inert black gravel, no ferts. Since this tank has been re vamped it has had no algae (~4mos) and before that It had an algae attack 3 times because i was out at university and my tank sitter figured it would be okay to leave the lights on 24/7 and over feed twice a day and not scoop out dead bodies. 
So the moral is... It can be done with healthy shiny super bright colourful and constantly breeding fish!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

TheOtherGeoff said:


> yes the fish load does help but remember fish can only breathe and poop so much.
> 
> i dont have much algae problems. it has green spot, which lets be honest most people will get, it had BBA - excel treated and cleared it, now it has some clado but im gonna buy a bottle of excel soon and get rid of it that way.


And that is the key, balancing the fish waste = plant demand without going too far. Too much light = too much plant demand= room for algae.
Too few fish= having to dose KNO3 etc.

If they exhale a lot of CO2, think about it.............they have say 6-8ppm of O2, and how much CO2 can you get from that without killing them due to low O2? You cannot go down too low without issues for O2 anyway. 

This is a rate issue.
Less light= less CO2 demand= less nutrient demand.

If you want to amplify things or are impatient, this is not going to work well for you. Same thing with over stocking the tank.

The other good thing about the algae issues, they are not anywhere near as intense nor as bad and you do not have to jump on them right away to stop a massive outbreak.

You could add a few things, maybe Gh booster(Ca/Mg/K), maybe some more traces, or a little PO4 , say once a week etc.
That would drive the NH4 uptake a little faster without causing too much issues or being that hard to handle/dose etc.
Some slight tweaking, or just deal with a little algae here and there.

Another reason for not doiung a water change or large uprooting: that changes the CO2, when you pull up a lot of muck, that changes the CO2 levels dramatically fast.

The bacteria in the sediments rapidly remove the O2 and exhale CO2.
There's also a lot of algal spores and NH4 producing detritus and feces down there deeper.

If a tank is well adapted to low CO2, keep it that way. Algae do not like to grow when there's no NH4 and no CO2 and low light.

Glad you posted the tank, it'd be nice to have a non CO2/non Excel tank contest truth be told.

No CO2 gas tank folks allowed

I think the PO4/K+ will resolve the GSA for you.
I've not had any of that for several months.
You can also move the lights away from the front glass a little bit or change the reflectors angle.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

Wouldn't the minerals and salts build up to very high levels after several months of top offs?


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## Roc (Mar 16, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> They are very easy to care for, no water changes, stable, lazy tanks, generally easier plants, or at least a good part of the biomass are more aggressive easier to grow plants.
> 
> There's just a very strong CO2 enrichment bias on most forums/boards.
> Many just do not know how or assume it cannot be done or cannot keep their medddling hands out of the tank, or cannot stand not to do a water change.
> ...


Tom go to Ocean Aquarium in SF he has tanks with screw in light bulbs, no CO2, no water changes no filters that have been running for 10 years


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

why flourite? 1 - petsmart pricematched me for big al's 11.99 a bag price andi bought something like..7 bags of it. pretty much bought every bag the two stores by me had. i like the color of it, its heaviy enough to keep stems in most the time. 

i do have a tank of eco-complete, its my 10 gallon. there is about as much effort in the 10 gallon as my 20. it has an even lower light setup ( 15 watts ) no doesing and ALOT of fish in it. there are something like a a dozen plus fish in there. i have a picture somewhere or i'll take one today...its very untamed, natural and wild looking


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

iroc said:


> Tom go to Ocean Aquarium in SF he has tanks with screw in light bulbs, no CO2, no water changes no filters that have been running for 10 years


Yes, Justin's been low tech for well..........his entire business:thumbsup: 
Neat place. Interesting contrast to Aqua forest right down the street about 1 mile away.

Justin knows fish 100x more though.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

mrbelvedere said:


> Wouldn't the minerals and salts build up to very high levels after several months of top offs?


No, why would they?
Plants use those same minerals as cell wall compnents and for enzymes as they grow slowly.
:thumbsup: 

The minerals actually decline as time passes.
I add GH booster which is K+, SO4, Ca, Mg, Fe, Mn here and there to relieve the nutrient stress that effects some more sensitive species after a few months, years.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Roc (Mar 16, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> Yes, Justin's been low tech for well..........his entire business:thumbsup:
> Neat place. Interesting contrast to Aqua forest right down the street about 1 mile away.
> 
> Justin knows fish 100x more though.
> ...


Yea I went to both yesterday looking for some Rams..........

Justin has the best policy about selling fish I ever heard of, he said since i never bought from him he had to test my water before he would sell me fish.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

heres a new one of the 75. i trimmed it today, added a new sword and a bunch of twigs.


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## Ukrainetz (Jul 11, 2007)

Your discus are gorgeous! I still cannot believe they even survive without water changes. I've always thought they were very fragile fish...some people in this forum do 50% daily WC's for them!!!


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## CJ (Plant Freak) (Jun 1, 2007)

Very nice...


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

Ukrainetz said:


> Your discus are gorgeous! I still cannot believe they even survive without water changes. I've always thought they were very fragile fish...some people in this forum do 50% daily WC's for them!!!


Thanks!!

and i know...everyone at simply discus thinks im retarded or soemthing cause i dont do water changes on a regular basis. the fish sure dont seem to mind.


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## Brunog (May 1, 2006)

I have a 75gal with wild discus and do WC about every 2-3 weeks. they look pretty good!

nice tank geoff


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Wow, all this talk is making wanna go low tek. 

Nice tanks, G!


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## Zer (May 23, 2007)

looks like a very interesting setup. I think this could be a much more desirable balance in a tank than the high tech route. I am guessing it would be difficult to do something like this in less than 20 gallons because parameters would change so rapidly.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

eh well my 10 gallon doesnt seem to mind being treated the same way as these tanks.


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## Zer (May 23, 2007)

very cool then Geoff.

if you could, what is your approach/technique to creating a natural balance in your tanks? Maybe it would help if you elaborated on fauna.


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

I've pretty much had low-tech tanks since I was 10. The only algae problem I ever had, and still do even up to today are diatoms on the glass. The limited research I did on it gave me "causes" that did not make sense, so I just scrape it off and do wc when it gets noticeable. If I get "lazier" with scraping the damn algae off I'll do some more research on it.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

jaidexl said:


> Wow, all this talk is making wanna go low tek.
> 
> Nice tanks, G!


yea, no kidding. i think i'm heading that route. the first person to cultivate HC in lower lighting tank! but i mean.. 2.5wpg isn't really considered "LOW" light is it?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Looks like his fish load plays a big part there, and all of his tanks seem to be cutting out a lot of light, at least in these photographed phases. No WCs probably play a big part for nutrients also. 

This thread is appealing to me for the fact that I have plants growing better in my "hi tek", lazy maintenance yeast tank than in my pressurized tank, regardless of the attention I pay to my fert regime.

2.5wpg might not be considered "low tek", but that is just a term we've created for something that takes it's own path no matter what we do, mother nature making the rules. In reality, they're "lazy" tanks.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> Another reason for not doiung a water change or large uprooting: that changes the CO2, when you pull up a lot of muck, that changes the CO2 levels dramatically fast.
> 
> The bacteria in the sediments rapidly remove the O2 and exhale CO2.
> There's also a lot of algal spores and NH4 producing detritus and feces down there deeper.
> ...


so in a low tank like this, when you decide to do a re-scape of some sort and pull up old stems, i'm assuming it's important to do a water change, or series of water changes after, to bring down the NH4 so that we do not end up with algae issus? 

when you talk about maybe adding a little PO4 to the tank for a GSA issue, are we talking about adding 1/16 of a tsp or less? seems like that much would really throw things out of wack. how much should someone with a low tek tank be tweaking their levels during situations?

i'm also assuming (i assume a lot :hihi that if you decide to do water changes every week or every other week, you're going to loose nutrients and create a problem. i.e. you will need to start adding some KNO3, etc. if it is that someone is so antsy that they can't keep their hands out, in what quantity of KNO3 are we adding? sure light the recommended dosing for a "hi tek" tank is it?



plantbrain said:


> Excel can add another level of tweaking and algae control if desired or if you want to do more fish loading and need to do more frequent water changes monthly, 2 weeks etc.
> 
> Then you can grow virtually any plant with that method(Excel, some traces(TMG etc)). I saw some awesome planted tanks recently in Taiwan that had no water changes, no testing, not ferts other than Traces, soil sediment, Excel and a fish load.
> 
> ...


So adding excel often (let's say once a day) will create a demand for more nutrient uptake in the plants? if so how often then, should we be adding excel?

approximately how many mL per week should we be adding in a low tek tank? i know it all depends upon plant mass and such, but thats why i started off with "approximately".


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## Subotaj (Oct 16, 2006)

The tank looks wonderful! 

Just one small problem with your new setup, sharp twigs can be little bit dangerous for discus.. it can injure them.



> Your discus are gorgeous! I still cannot believe they even survive without water changes. I've always thought they were very fragile fish


At the 80' in Israel discus was so fragile fish that only pro's can keep it alive. Now at 2007 you have to use 5kg hummer to Kill them


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

Tom? Can you answer my questions?


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

are you out there?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

Subotaj said:


> The tank looks wonderful!
> 
> Just one small problem with your new setup, sharp twigs can be little bit dangerous for discus.. it can injure them.


they arent sharp. the fish will be fine. they are mostly out of the way. the damn fish do more damage to each other then the twigs have


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Geoff,

I haven't done a WC on my 3.2wpg 65gl for a month, have only done 1/week trace doses with Flourish. This is a change from my own GI (Guestimative Index) regiment of bi-weekly dosing of NPK followed by a 30% weekly WC. I also increased to 3bps (to fight off some BBA), one would think uptake would be FUBAR at this point and I've expected a deficiency, none so far. The deficiencies that were present (HZ black spots) are now gone and the tank looks much better. It's still likely that simple establishment is a key factor because the tank is only a few months old, but I'm going to wait for a deficiency before changing things.

Once again, nice tanks and thanks for the inspiration.


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## Bee (Aug 13, 2007)

one thing i absolutly love about heavily planted tanks is the lack of water changes!

my 3 tanks only get top ups due to evapouration- about an inch per fortnight


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## zackish (Jun 12, 2007)

Those are 2 beautiful tanks, especially with no Co2, you must be dosing ferts though right?


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## RachPreach (Jan 16, 2006)

ok im going to be upgrading to 3wpg on my 100 gallon tank. I currently only have about 2wpg and I do a water change once a week and and ferts everyday. I add csm+b at 1/4tsp on mondays,weds.,and fridays and phosphates, potassium, and kno3 on the other days at 1/4tsp. If I didnt do water changes every week how would that effect my tank and fish? HOw have I been doing all this work for so long when i didnt have to???

Also, how do you grow such red plants as in the first picture posted on this thread? What type of plant is that?


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## Landon (Aug 22, 2007)

RachPreach said:


> Also, how do you grow such red plants as in the first picture posted on this thread? What type of plant is that?


I read this entire thread hoping to find the answer to that question :icon_lol: Its funny that its asked in the last post before mine 

Geoff, Beautiful tanks and great inspiration! Im getting ready to start a 110 and want a low maintenace tank. After much reading on this forum I was beginning to think I would be stepping into realms unheard of. Im glad you have proven that untrue, as well as Tom pointing out some other successful folks in this venture. One of my favorite things about animal husbandry, is recreating the balanced eco system that these animals come from. Its hard to do in these little glass boxes, but thats where I want my challenge, not in lugging jugs of water around :icon_lol:


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

*Geoff...SWEET Tank...you really do have some nice RED plants there for lower light...is that Alternanthera reineckii? I don't think so but seems similar...*

RachPreach: You don't want to do HEAVY ferts and no water changes. The idea behind EI is that the weekly water changes will prevent any major nutrient build-up/imbalance. Low-tech is low-fert. And you don't want/need to go up to 3wpg in my book...higher watts=less room for errors before you have algae problems...2 wpg is enough to grow just about ANY plant, I have Ludwigia Repens and Reineckii and Sunset Hygro, and while they aren't as bright pink as a guy w/ 5wpg, they are still redder than my other green plants and look good. Take a look at BOTH of my tanks in my sig, they both have about 2.4wpg, and really, 1/2 of that light on BOTH tanks is "actinic" so I guess I really only have 1.2 wpg! I think they look good...not incredibly fast growers, but really that's fine by me, some weeks I just don't want to trim for an hour or 2, I'd rather watch football...

Danepatrick, I'll take a stab at some of your Q's, you can check out my 29g Low-Tech tank in my sig too 

The whole thing w/ low-tech, is simple....its the balance of lights vs co2 vs plant mass vs fish load...in high tech, you have high-CO2, so you go higher nutrients (ferts) and can do higher lighting. In low tech, you go low lights, low ferts, low co2. The plant mass vs fish mass, I'm still confused about that equation to be honest, not sure how to figure out the right loads, but in general, I figure the more plants you have, the more fish (load) you can have safely.

The MAIN issue w/ planted tanks is algae problems. Algae as you know, responds to dramatic CO2 swings. In a pressurized CO2 tank, you can get away w/ weekly water changes, b/c your CO2 will stabilize, and the algae won't have a growth spurt. However, if you do a water change in a low-tech tank, the new water will cause a spike (up) in Co2, and since plants respond very SLOWLY to new CO2 levels, while the algae is a evolutionary 'survivor' with its ability to maximize quick environment changes...you will have algae problems. So, long story short, you don't do WC's on low-tech tanks so you don't have Co2 fluctuations which only help algae. Basically you want to keep everything nice and constant since you don't have pressurized Co2 to regulate for you. There is a thread over in the "LOW_TECH" section, that goes on several pages about LESS water changes, Tom.B has some posts over there goes along these same lines as well..

Since you have low CO2, and Low light, you don't need high-ferts...I'm doing 1 day of dry ferts on my low tech per week now (and then, only 1/2 of what I'd give my hi-tech on any dosing day, maybe less). FIrst two months or so I didn't do ferts, thought I might over dose and cause problems, well, ironically I now have Clad and GSA, which are signs of nutrient deficiency=algae. (see here: http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm) fyi, I only run my lights about 6 hours right now w/ the 10K, 12 hours w/ the Actinic, might increase it later

edit: It seems most folks here say 1x week for a small amount of ferts for low-tech...I guess just start somewhere and see where it takes you, I'm doing about 1/6--1/10 or less of what my hi tank gets per week--its easy math, just less scoops for me!). Apparently more room for error in low-tech tanks....

The problem I'm having in my tank is a little clad, GSA and a little BBA (I inherited the BBA problem from the guy I got the 4LC from...). I've started doing spot treatments w/ a plastic syring, 1ml per 10 gallons per the directions, turning off the filter for 10-15 minutes. So, 3ml every 36 hours or so, I have a lot of mosses and shrimp, I don't want to kill my shrimp w/ too much excel and I've heard excel can turn mosses brown if over-dosed. Works great on the BBA, its turning red and disappearing. Upping my ferts a little now to try and get rid of the Clad since *supposedly* its a algae that thrives in a nutrient deficient tank.


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## RachPreach (Jan 16, 2006)

nbot: I have tried to grow hygro sunset and repens in my tank to no success. I would get brittle stems and rotting at the base. I really want to be able to grow the awesome plants that require a bit more lighting than I have. I have 192watts over a 100 gallon.


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

RachPreach: Your tank in your sig looks great...I'm guessing you've researched into it and think its low-lights not some missing nutrient etc causing the bad growth...I'm really not in a place to tell you any differently as I don't know The low lights are growing both of them fine in my tanks, not sure what the difference is


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

no i dont touch them with ferts. 

i used to have reinekii but not anymore. its all a ludwgia or rotala specie


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Hey update your 75g sig photo/linkie no workie Geoff....


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## Flopster843 (Aug 21, 2007)

Congrats on the tanks. They look great. Maybe mine will get there one day...


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

Nbot said:


> Hey update your 75g sig photo/linkie no workie Geoff....


yeah i know....im lazy and very forgetful. haha


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

you certainly are! LOLOL


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## RachPreach (Jan 16, 2006)

Nbot said:


> RachPreach: Your tank in your sig looks great...I'm guessing you've researched into it and think its low-lights not some missing nutrient etc causing the bad growth...I'm really not in a place to tell you any differently as I don't know The low lights are growing both of them fine in my tanks, not sure what the difference is


thanks but that picture is sooo old. I have since recently moved that tank across two states to atlanta, ga. I uprooted everything and changed the substrate. I am going to buy 55x2 ah supply kits to go onto it to enhance growth. I use the EI dosing method and there fore thats why apparently I do the weekly water changes...:icon_eek:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

One of the defining goals for many with non CO2/non Excel methods is the balance between fish waste and plant demand.

That is key, and means you need quite a few plants and then slowly over time add more fish as the plants grow in better. 

And more plants the better, same with CO2 methods also.

Folks say they do not want to do water changes, to save labor.
Or they say they cannot or do not want to lug buckets.

Neither do I.

However, I timed how long a 60% water change took on a 20 gallon tank last Sunday.

8 minutes.
That included getting the hoses out and putting them back and a glass wipe.
Took 45 second to drain the tank with a 3/4" ID hose, refilled with a garden hose in 6 minutes.
1:15 for getting the hoses out and put back.
5 min for glass wipe.
Not one bucket was used nor anything lifted.
Hoses drained and filled.
All I did was pull them out and turn the water on, started a siphon etc.
I can go several hundred feet so you can do it most anywhere, as most folks have a bathroom or a window or a door outside to drain to/fill from.

So access is rarely if ever an issue.

Then there's automation of the water changes, full or semi.
You can and should get one set up if you plan on a larger tank.
It's very well worth it.

I also hate testing to just see where I'm at with nutrients weekly.

However, the non CO2/no Excel method allows you get around the water change and the test kits.

What is the trade off?
Patience and slower growth, but many like the slowed growth.

Adding a little KNO3,PO4, traces GH booster here and there, maybe a tiny pinch once every week or two is not hard and relieves intense limitation stress
which is mild with low light + non low non CO2 enrichment levels.

This works well, and has no long term effects.
It also allows you to grow a lot more plant species than only using the soil method and nothing else other than fish waste:thumbsup: 

Plant health is increased and growth rates are a bit faster this way, no brittle stems, no holes, no poor growth with some species etc.

Ask yourself why some species do well while others do not in such tanks and then look at a well fertilized system using CO2 where both species do well.

Why is that?

Nutrients, most folks do not test non CO2 tanks and fewer yet calibrate and measure well over a time frame. If you do , there is a clear relationship between the lack luster growth of some species and the dosing of NO3 etc.

Plants compete with eachother!

Some are much better at grabbing the N than others............

But folks say "well some of my plants are doing well, so it must be the plant just does not like non CO2 or my light etc".........

That's not true in most cases.
They run out of nutrients and you add them and see this rectify the growth. Takes longer to see certainly, but you can still see it.

Others claim while high PO4 is okay for CO2 enriched tanks, that it will induce algae in the non CO2 planted tanks, again, not true, same for high Fe, NO3 etc.

Diana Walstad postulated that Fe limitation might reduce algae growth in non CO2 systems, but that's not true in lakes nor in our non CO2 tanks, all you do is add a fair amount and see.

I've never induced algae yet........where's my algae if these things "cause" algae? 

Regards, 

Tom Barr


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## RachPreach (Jan 16, 2006)

wow.....that was a lot of info!! So whats the benefits of EI dosing and weekly water changes? 

I dont mind the water changes, its actually kind of fun becuase it allows you to interact with the tank and plants. I just didnt know that there were some people that didnt do them...'


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

that's the topic of this thread
No water change son the 20 and 75 gallon non CO2 tank

You will want to start another thread for what to do if you like CO2 and water changes.

Regards, 
Tom barr


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## McgJosh (Jun 4, 2006)

Are you suggesting low tech people go with a lighter dosing ei method and do weekly water changes?


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

> Are you suggesting low tech people go with a lighter dosing ei method and do weekly water changes?


No, I like I explained just a few posts ago, frequent water changes are not good for low tech tanks, if my post doesn't make sense by itself, you can read more here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/39073-fewer-water-changes-low-tech-planted.html

I'll stop contributing to the hi-jacking of your journal Geoff, awesome tank, any one else w/ low-tech Q's there's a whole sub-forum on low-tech tanks....


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## McgJosh (Jun 4, 2006)

Alright, I just re-read his post. You are right, he said with no co2/excel we shouldn't be doing water changes. The confusion came because right before that he was talking about how little time it takes to do a water change so it seemed like he was advocating them. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Badcopnofishtank (Jan 20, 2004)

Less work and more enjoyment. I don't see the downside here. I think alot of hobbists are scared (due to misinformation) not to pack their tanks with plants and gadgets that aid them in growing everything they see published in high gloss magazines. The low tech approach, or less maintenance approach is refreshing and is definitely my goal.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

McgJosh said:


> Are you suggesting low tech people go with a lighter dosing ei method and do weekly water changes?


No, I was mentioning the trade offs, relevant to the non CO2 approach which has no water changes. Some suggest water changes take too long, too much work etc or they have lift heavy things, all of which is rubbish.
Still, I like to avoid even that. Depends on what trade offs are important to you, still, I am realistic about things also. It's not that much work.

You can add ferts to a non CO2 plant tank however...........just very light.......and that/it has nothing to do with EI which is water changing based to avoid test kits.

Here, the test kits are avoided due to slow rate of growth and minimal needs/demands of slow growing plants. This is also why the water changes are not required. Fish waste = plant demand or slightly less fish waste than plant demand. You may top off some ferts once every week or two.

Folks try and fuse or use CO2 dosing fert methods for non CO2 tanks, others do not add enough plant biomass and think a sword or two makes a 55 gallon tank a "planted tank". They change water thinking like on their fish only tank, that this is also good here. 

Initially it seems counter intuitive, however, it's not, it's more a function of rate of growth, plant demand and patience.

It's not hard if you follow the advice.
Once up and running, things are pretty much set and forget as long as you add water for evaporation, and feed the fish routinely.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

well how bout an update...


woulda ya know it, life came out me and kicked my a$$ pretty good the past couple months. these tanks both became EXTREMELY neglicted. and i mean it was BAD. the 75 had duck weed almost 3/8 an dinch thick covering close to 50% of the surface, one corner was almost totally dark. algea was all over, some nasty brown gooy crap too. 

the 20 handled it just fine. haha. the plants got tall and some light started to get blocked. i let the java moss go crazy and it out competed my clado growing in the dwarf sag...so its all gone now. w00t. anyway, here are some before and after pictures for ya. 

Ok first are the before shots...they are NASTY...


















And now the afters...to help with the shock of how much hell they had fallen into









the right corner really isnt that dark, just looks it in the picture


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

gooooooo. i mean.. wow. that's a huge difference. again, simply amazing.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

Thank ya sir. i think they turned out well. 

on a side note..amazing how the 75 looked about a year and a half ago..


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## knuggs (Mar 5, 2007)

Wow! Great tanks and great journal. I even like how they looked in their neglicted state. Thats a big difference in a year and a half.

What kind of twigs do you have in your tank, have you had any probs with them and how long have they been in there? Do you ever change your filter or add new media? What kind of water do you use in your discus tank?

Sorry about all the questions, but your tank has inspired me to save my $$ and stay low maintenance.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

the twigs are from some tree trimmings i found one day while playing offroad in my truck. i just broke em off, cleaned em and stuck em in the tank. they sank how they sank. they have been in there since...umm...3-4 months now i would say and no problems. some of the wood thats in there is several years old. 

The filter and filter media gets cleaned every couple of months, i need to do that soon actually. and the water i use in all these tanks is straight out of the tap. 

i find the low tech to be easy at times, yet very frustrating at other times. you are slightly limited to what you can grow, some plants will like it, i have found others do not. i used to never be able to grow swords in my 55/75 but now i have the xp3 which makes a bunch of flow and i just started pumping more light into it. well see how the dwarf sag i added to the 75 does being so far from the light. its used to lowish light so im hoping it does well.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Please note the coloration of the reds.........

Here we have low light + no CO2.

Please look at this a long time and think about it.

Think about the myth of high light = red color.
The rate of growth is important here and the low easy to maintain Nitrogen residuals.

If you *assume* that you must have high light for deep red color, please explain the falsification here. You really cannot.

So...............is it really high light = really red colors?
Or is it something else?
We also have examples of really pale colors at high light.

And in natural systems, the really red colors I've seen are deep in nutrient poor soils, greens? Rich closer to the surface banks.
But no one believes me and most aquarists still think this.

If it were true, then everyone could maintain the same red colors by adding high light. But we do not see that.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## knuggs (Mar 5, 2007)

What is that red plant?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

thats a good question honestly, haha. i was sold it as ludwigia repens, yet i have NEVER seen repens look like that. i think its some sort of a fancy rotala. i shoudl take some pictures of just the plants to really show just how red and deeply colored they are

OH and something else worth mentioning, if you think the water "may" be all screwed up from never doing WC's, then i guess it makes emperor tetras breed, cause my male has bred 3 times with females, and i have now 2 more females and a male in the population and cherry shrimp numbers are close to 100 i would bet. ha


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## knuggs (Mar 5, 2007)

Thats awesome your emperors breed like that. I dont do water changes in my cherry shrimp tank either. They seem to like it that way.

Would you be willing to sell some of that red plant?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

yeah give me alittle while to let it grow back out some.


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## knuggs (Mar 5, 2007)

Awesome! Let me know when ready.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

TheOtherGeoff said:


> thats a good question honestly, haha. i was sold it as ludwigia repens, yet i have NEVER seen repens look like that.


Seems to grow like repens but too pink/red. Maybe it's palustris or 'rubin'. I've been looking for those too, if you have extra clippings for cash.


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## BentZero (Oct 6, 2007)

How do you calculate the fish load balance in a low-tech/low-maintenance tank? I just set my tank up last night and I'm anxious to add fish, but I'm also paranoid about going over the delicate balance. I'm assuming that water tests, nitrates and phosphates, will give me some indication as to what my tank needs.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

If you just set your tank up last night, I suggest you read up on cycling new aquariums and the nitrogen cycle. The first month is a deadly one for fish. You can speed the process up a few ways and try a few different methods, but in the interest of not hijacking this thread, I'll leave it for you to research or start a new thread for. Just make sure not to throw any fish in there for a while unless you want them dead, start with plants first.

To put my 2 cents toward your question, I don't think there is any set answer. You could make sure to fully stock by using the 'inch per gallon' guideline and I'm sure that would be plenty for healthy plant growth. Obviously in healthy, overgrown tanks like these you can go beyond that with the stocking level and still not experience a buildup of nitrates.


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## BentZero (Oct 6, 2007)

This isn't my first tank, although it's my first planted. I didn't mean to imply that I was going to add fish anytime soon. Clearly when I do start adding I won't add many fish since I don't want an ammonia spike from a sudden jump in fish load. I was just curious about calculating a proper fish load. Does the 1" per gallon rule still hold up in a planted tank? I previously had a reef tank, but in reef you tend to keep the fish load low.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Ok, just making sure, you never know who your dealing with, lots of total newcomers everyday.

I think I added to my last post after you read it, but no, I don't think the 1"/gl rule applies to planted tanks, but I do believe in fish having space, so I personally stick to very small species in a fully stocked tank. The "rule" is still good in my mind no matter what type of tank your doing, but I never considered it a rule, just a guideline. The bottom line is it's to save from nitrogen buildup including ammonia beyond what the biofilter can handle, but each plant is a biofilter in it's own right.


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## BentZero (Oct 6, 2007)

No worries. I should have been clearer. I too like to get tiny fish. Anything bigger than 2" and I start to feel guilty about keeping them in a box. Assuming my tank is fully established would 3 SAE's, 5 neon tetras, and 2 angle fish be too much in a 37g?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Mmm, me personally, I wouldn't do it. Your talking to someone who had 1 angel, 1 SAE and 8 rosie tetras in a 30gl and thought is was way cramped, but will the biofilter hold... probably will. I would switch the angels for dwarf gouramis and make more room for extra schoolers.


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## realburnsie (May 1, 2007)

*algae control*

How do the plants out-compete algae growth without high lighting and CO2 fert?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

plant mass. there is so much plant mass in there that the algae has a hard time getting anywhere. the plants use all the nutrients before the algae can. 

as far as fish load and balance. i just add fish til i get a number i like. im fairly happy with the fish in my 20, only thing i want to add is some more pencilfish. in my 75 i plan to add prolley another 20 neons and a dozen more rummynoses then i think i'll be good with schools


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## realburnsie (May 1, 2007)

TheOtherGeoff said:


> plant mass. there is so much plant mass in there that the algae has a hard time getting anywhere. the plants use all the nutrients before the algae can.
> 
> as far as fish load and balance. i just add fish til i get a number i like. im fairly happy with the fish in my 20, only thing i want to add is some more pencilfish. in my 75 i plan to add prolley another 20 neons and a dozen more rummynoses then i think i'll be good with schools


So when I took about 2 lbs. of plants out of my tank and got some algae a ouple of weeks later, that must have been the cause, eh? I hadn't thought about it. Thanks.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

TheOtherGeoff said:


> plant mass. there is so much plant mass in there that the algae has a hard time getting anywhere. the plants use all the nutrients before the algae can.


That makes sense but then when you think about the EI method, there's always nutrients floating around.... I'm more confused.

I think the rules for a low-tech tank & a high tech tank are completely different.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

my low tech rules are there are none  seems to be workin out. i did get some new plants the other day, couple a of crypt balanse for 3 bucks a pot and got like 2 plants in each pot. i am happy


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## Orca77 (Sep 26, 2007)

Your 10 Gallon looks fabulous, too! Do you have more pictures? Could you please share some tank parameters? Lighting, filtration, substrate, etc?

Thanks a lot!


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

TheOtherGeoff said:


> my low tech rules are there are none  seems to be workin out. i did get some new plants the other day, couple a of crypt balanse for 3 bucks a pot and got like 2 plants in each pot. i am happy


you must have some rules... like what do you do when leaves start turning yellow or when algae start appearing?


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## addo (Apr 20, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> you must have some rules... like what do you do when leaves start turning yellow or when algae start appearing?


Well i can tell you what I do, first of all allot of plants wont work for you If you´re lowtec so have to try a few and se wich ones survive. When you have a poulation of plants that work well then you just fed more or less depending on your amount of nutriens.


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## enchanted (Sep 23, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Please note the coloration of the reds.........
> 
> Here we have low light + no CO2.
> 
> ...


Tom, 

Everything I read stated this was a nutrient thing, not lighting. More around the Nitrogens in the tank.........

Could be wrong though.....
Larry


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

addo said:


> Well i can tell you what I do, first of all allot of plants wont work for you If you´re lowtec so have to try a few and se wich ones survive. When you have a poulation of plants that work well then you just fed more or less depending on your amount of nutriens.


I have a couple of low tech tanks too. I'm just curious as to what others do. I do nothing as well  except scrape the algae once in a while and dose ferts once in a while. I use sunlight. And you'd be surprise with the plants you can grow in a low-tech tank... So far I'm growing 'hi-tech' plants like micro swords and HM, HC successfully.. Can't get hairgrass to grow though.


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## Spidergrrrl (Nov 10, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> They are very easy to care for, no water changes, stable, lazy tanks, generally easier plants, or at least a good part of the biomass are more aggressive easier to grow plants.
> 
> There's just a very strong CO2 enrichment bias on most forums/boards.
> Many just do not know how or assume it cannot be done or cannot keep their medddling hands out of the tank, or cannot stand not to do a water change.
> ...


Wow. I have to agree that these tanks look pretty spectacular. I just started a 29 gallon high-light/CO2 tank and while I'm being pretty good with maintenance so far, I know my track record means I'll slack off eventually. Is it possible to wean my tank into being a low-light/tech tank? I like the idea of minimal maintenance, maximum enjoyment. 

TheOtherGeoff , I'm sorry to hijack your thread. I'm learning that there is still a lot I don't know.  


Thanks much, guys.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

mistergreen said:


> That makes sense but then when you think about the EI method, there's always nutrients floating around.... I'm more confused.
> 
> I think the rules for a low-tech tank & a high tech tank are completely different.


No, they are the same.
They both have nutrients and plenty for algae.
The *rate of growth* is different(10-20X).

Plants define the system, not the nutrients.
This has been shown in hundred's of planted lakes.
You can also test this in a well run planted tank also.

CO2 is stable(low and limiting to plants, but stable), same as a CO2 enriched system. Stable CO2.

Plants adapt to each case and do very well in stable locations.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

enchanted said:


> Tom,
> 
> Everything I read stated this was a nutrient thing, not lighting. More around the Nitrogens in the tank.........
> 
> ...


That's right.
Mostly N.

Many non CO2 tanks are N slightly limited, and the N limitation, well, most every limitation(except CO2 and light) is not the strong.

So the low light places low CO2 demand, which is good, there's not much around.

The plants make more CO2 uptake enzymes and adapt biochemically over time(weeks). 

PO4 can get rather high in such tanks and drive the N way down. There might be some NH4 competition for N as food is fed and the algae really have no signal for germination, low light and low stable CO2 also make it very hard on algae spores.

As the growth rates for plants is reduce so it is for algae, and herbivores, pruning exports etc can easily keep up.

Folks often say they want stable systems that are no work, but are often too impatient to wait for things to grow in and adapt.

These tanks are not anything folks have not done before, and thje owner's notion about how to care for them, "I just do this or that and do not worry" is common.

A simple balance. What has/was not done prior, was identifying these balances and how they relate to CO2 enriched systems.

I added to that and tied these together and have a better understanding of algae.

This allows us to predict and model and improve the non CO2 method if we so chose and to see where and why others had/have issues.

Dorothy Riemer and Diana Walstad made some good speculations and asked some good questions. I checked into them and decided to monitor and test these ideas.

Regards, 
Tom Barr







Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Diana Walstad brought up another interesting point. In a rich substrate environment, the plants (rooted) have an advantage where they can absorb nutrients through their roots and algae can't. Algae have to count on nutrients in the water column.

Thanks for the info.. A stable environement is the key then.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The point made and argued by Diana Walstad is mute however.
Root macrophytes can access the nutrients, while the algae are not, but the algae are still not nutrient limited in the water column.
That was not shown.

Aquatic macrophytes leach large amounts of nutrients into the water column, they act like "pipes" exporting nutrients, and many species of algae attach themselves to plants for this reason.

Such logic does not imply that algae are limited by doing this method.
If it where true, then why can I add PO4 and NO3 and Fe and K and Ca and Mg etc to a non CO2 planted tank and never induce algae?

If you make the speculation, then test it.
See if it's true or not.

I did.
She suggests it is speculation.
She does not say "that's the way it is".

Same deal with high light CO2 enriched tanks, cycling and processes occur 10-20X faster, we add these same nutrients, again, no algae.

Conclusion based on such results:
Algae are cannot be limited in either case.

Does not matter what causes algae, but the test shows what it cannot be.

Further, taking another step to see what ranges algae are limited at: beyond the ranges of test kit resolutions, even for myself at a high tech lab.
Ulrich(1989) suggested that FW algae PO4 limiting levels where below 3 ppb, that's part's per Billion.

Few places can measure much to +/- 5 ppb at 10ppb ranges.
the methods do not exist. P32 radionucli can likely do it, but that's such nasty stuff and only a very few research places will use it.

Aquatic plants become limited for PO4 at about 50 ppb.
See SFWMD for such references, most periphyton mats became limited at 20ppb.

Barko et al showed, as did Anderson, in split chamber studies that plants translocated and leached out nutrients from the sediments to the water column. 

Keep swinging and asking questions though.
You can ask Ole Petereson. T. Madsen, San-Jensen, Raven, anyone in the Evergaldes research wing at SFWMD, etc.

Then there's whole inorganic vs organic, SRP vs non labile fractions of PO4.
This works in marine systems also, but PO4 works much better as a trigger there ecologically. FW algae are rarely limited by nutrients and in our systems virtually never, you'd have to remove the plants to do it.
Stressed limited plants will also leach out more nutrients than healthy plants(healthy plants tend to leach more sugars/carbohydrates though, up to 10% of the fixed carbon).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

So plants naturally leach nutrients all the time? 
If that's the case then low-tech plants leach less than hi-tech plants?
I've noticed algae issues growing on plants is next to zero in my low-tech tank.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

mistergreen said:


> So plants naturally leach nutrients all the time?


Yes!



> If that's the case then low-tech plants leach less than hi-tech plants?
> I've noticed algae issues growing on plants is next to zero in my low-tech tank.


Perhaps, I'm not sure which pipes more, but the fact of the matter, and the question asked, was answered, the algae are non limited in each case, eg, excess NO3, PO4, Fe, etc, does not induce algae.

If you assume excess nutrients induce algae and that algae are limited by plants, then the test show without doubt that this hypothesis is *False*.

If you want to ask the next step, the next question, then the test and approach will be specific to that question.

As you rule out one hypothesis, you move on to the next, until you are left with the best candidates/things that where too hard to rule out etc, then you add those nutrients/treatments/parameters etc and see what happens.

If you get inducement, say with high light and NH4, then you have a tentative hypothesis that may be at least one "cause". 

The relationship between light, CO2 and NH4 is complex.
Very interesting to me, but you will not see me give too much advice specifically with ppb's of NH4 and light.

Hobbyists do not have PAR light meters, good CO2 measuring methods/devices, and cannot measure low NH4 levels.

I have trouble.
But at higher levels, these do induce and we can test and see it.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## ikuzo (Jul 11, 2006)

mistergreen said:


> So far I'm growing 'hi-tech' plants like micro swords and HM, HC successfully.. Can't get hairgrass to grow though.


are you sure? hairgrass is a lot easier than HC. what's the problem?



Spidergrrrl said:


> Is it possible to wean my tank into being a low-light/tech tank? I like the idea of minimal maintenance, maximum enjoyment.


do it. i love my low light tank.


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

ikuzo said:


> are you sure? hairgrass is a lot easier than HC. what's the problem?


I have also been trying to grow dwarf hairgrass in a low tech tank--- it's a NO GO! I've had it submerged for 12 months and I think the most I have are fifteen new blades.

Stats:
29 gallon
Aquaclear 70
Light: Only Sunlight - Southfacing, 6ft wide - floor to ceiling window.
Substrate: Topsoil covered w/ 1/4" onyx sand & 1.25" SMS Charcoal
Ferts: PPS Pro Daily w/ 3ml Excel (no pressurized CO2)

I do have many other plants growing successfully under these conditions; but _not_ hairgrass. 

Also, I've grown HC successfully using just Excel in smaller tanks ie., 10g & 5g - the lower height brings this plant just 10" from the light. (Unlike a 29g., 55g or 75g w/ 18 - 21" height.)


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

mistergreen said:


> you must have some rules... like what do you do when leaves start turning yellow or when algae start appearing?


when they turn yellow, they go yellow, then fall off and get stuck on the filter inatke or float around til i pick em out. algae happens. usually i just scrub it off if its bad enough. thats about it.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

ikuzo said:


> are you sure? hairgrass is a lot easier than HC. what's the problem?


Have you grown hairgrass in a low-tech tank? I'd like to know your methods if you have.


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## ikuzo (Jul 11, 2006)

i have one tank mostly with hairgrass. about 16-17 gallon with 36 watts of lighting. DIY CO2 with a reactor. i'm not sure if i can call this low tech but i'm sure it's easier to grow hairgrass than HC there. don't get me wrong but i'm assuming that if you can grow HC in a low tech, you can grow hairgrass a lot easier.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

iroc said:


> Justin has the best policy about selling fish I ever heard of, he said since i never bought from him he had to test my water before he would sell me fish.


That's hardcore keepin it real. Props to Justin :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## digthemlows (Dec 17, 2007)

I love this thread good information and a Great Tank!


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

thanks.

i have recently come to conclude what is the cause to trigger the spawning of the emperor tetras in the 20L. 

when i let it get nice and overgrown, the plants by the sword in the right hand corner form a dark "cove" if you will. the plants are dense, light doesnt get to the bottom and the male emp stays almost exculsivly in this area. now everytime it has gotten over grown like this, baby fish have appeared. this most recent time it got thick, baby fish. so i think the key to me spawning this fish is to let the corner get dark and form a safe haven for him


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## BentZero (Oct 6, 2007)

Ha, you've built him a Playboy grotto!
:fish:


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Lo there Geoff...

I just found your thread, an they look damn good! 

The reason I do the low tech thing is a time factor. I have alot of time in the winter but come spring summer an fall, I dont have any. My 75G tank I had was the same. I never changed an ounce of water, but being topless, I had to top it off with about 3 inches a water once a week.

I never really did anything with flourish excel or ferts. I threw in some flourish when I remembered to do it.

The only problem I see when just tryin to start a low tech tank is the time the plants take to get established. People seem to get a lil impatient. start trying to dose cause they dont see any growth, maybe keep the lights on a lil longer etc...Once the plants have established themselves, its an easy ride from then on IMO. Get lots of fish, lots a plants, feed the fish heavy an sit back an relax!

My 125G is going to house 6 adult blue turks. It will be a low tech tank an I wont do anything different. just top off the tank once a week. I wouldnt try an put small discus in this enviroment cause it will just stunt thier growth, but adults will do just fine in an enviroment like this IMO. One good thing about discus is...They will let ya know if they aint happy. Stress bars or the eyes gettin cloudy. Maybe get withdrawn or huddle together. Then it might be time for a WC or 2.

You have done an awsome job with your tanks!! roud: 

tc
Mark


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

hehe yes it is grotto-esk. 

Mark, you did hit the nail on the head with the concerns to the initial start up of a low tech tank. within a month it will look aboslutly nothing like a tank thats got c02, tons of light and ferts daily. it took this tank quiet a while to get bushy but once they have gotten established, they do a good job staying with the pace of things. and like you said, they try to dose, longer lights, i didnt change anything. when i first set it up and it looked awful, it had the same lighting schedule as it has right now. 12 hours on, 12 hours off. 

i do need to get some excell in there though, i have some algae starting to get alittle rowdy, but it will calm itself back down. 

here are a couple more background pictures of the tank...

3rd day of set up









after 3 months









after one year









and this whole time, i have had ONE bout with ich, that was within the first batch of fish i addded, the flourite has YET to be gravel vac'd and i havent looked back at all.


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## Raimeiken (May 20, 2004)

interesting thread. I was about to purchase a co2 system until i saw this thread. Now Im going to try this out. 

So my question is, what if I get an algae issue, what should I do to get rid of it without doing any WC?


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## dekstr (Oct 23, 2007)

Not sure if this has been talked about, but what about water flow?

I'm interested in how you get water flow. So many plants must really cut down on your water movement.


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## Dan in Aus (Feb 10, 2008)

oohhh i love the updated shot don't know if you mentioned but what fish are in there


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

CO2 use is really a question of goals.
Using it does not mean you are a better gardener, will have a better tank etc.

If your goal is less work and still have a nice fully planted tank, no water changes, but still have some nice fish etc, but not an overstocked tank, you have some patiences, you will be rewarded here.

You can go sediment ferts, soil etc, or you can wait and/or use flourite etc, ADA AS etc.........and add a smaller amount of macros etc. I've detailed out some rate estimations for folks to use and methods to dose water column ferts if you chose non CO2 as well.

So you can go both methods pretty well.

And yes, I've had a really nice hair grass lawn in a 10 Gallon non CO2 tank, took a long time(I added it after 9 months, and it took another 4 to cover the region I wanted as I slowly phased out one plant for this).

Gloss will also grow etc.

SAE's, Amano shrimps etc are wise to add.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

T O G beautiful job.
I love the tanks and the maintenance schedule. I have kind of done a similar thing.....but I have high tech. I just cut the water changes to 50% every 2-3 weeks and a top off every now and then. 

Great job, again.


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## ikuzo (Jul 11, 2006)

so how's the tank going?
we need some update here?


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## gumby (Apr 3, 2008)

I'm just as curious about how the tanks are doing now as well.

Has anyone been successful with HC in a low-tech tank?


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## YSS (Mar 5, 2005)

I am absolutely blown out of my mind. No water changes in a discus tank! Yea, I would love to see some updates. How are the water parameters? Do you test for anything? Your discus are fine?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

huh, guess i do need an update.

its a new year, tank has a new look. discus are chillin, decided to eat some more neons but it happens, pictures later.water is fine. i'd drink it


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## SeaSerpant (Feb 20, 2008)

That must be some good water or the water around your area is pretty bad.


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## adamprice271 (Jun 10, 2006)

I do very similiar to what Geoff does (we talk about it a lot)...and trust me, I'd drink it too. I'd try my own but I don't like tea 

Adam


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

SeaSerpant said:


> That must be some good water or the water around your area is pretty bad.


st.louis was voted the best tasting tap water in the US. thats how good my water is


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## SeaSerpant (Feb 20, 2008)

then your aquarium water must be really good


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## ikuzo (Jul 11, 2006)

i'm doing it at two of my tanks right now. less maintenance is great 
oh and i got BBA at one branch of my driftwood near where i pour daily water top off. i guess that's where the CO2 is inconsistent lol.

waiting for your photos...


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

use some excel overdosing. kills it good. pictures will come around 1 today, once my lights turn on. the tank is kinda doing a small algae cycle right now, since i removed a entire 2.5 gallon trash can of plants. the grocery bag i had in there was barely able to tie shut.


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## YSS (Mar 5, 2005)

Looking forward to the pictures. By the way, when was the last time you did water change in your 75G? I have 2 planted tanks, but trying the no water change in my 20G.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

umm, its prolley been year and a half, two years since ive done one in there. still have yet to do one on the 20, and its closing in on 4 years old at the end of summer


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## bluelobster (Mar 8, 2008)

where did you get the twigs??? what did you do to them before you put them in the tank???


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

twigs were in my neighbors yard. i just washed em down, removed any fungus or lichen type things growing on it. flopped em in. 

here are pictures, a day or so late, like always. 










ok here are different pictures. the first ones SUCKED. sorry if you saw those. i began to look at the tank and what do ya know, the tank always looks so much better when all your lights are working. . glad i had some spare bulbs laying around.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

wow, the tank looks realy nice with that wood.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

uh oh i has update soon  i got some new plants...


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## FluffynTex (May 23, 2008)

TheOtherGeoff said:


> uh oh i has update soon  i got some new plants...


Any updates?

Back about 20 years ago I had a 20 gallon tank with hornwort in it, a thick layer floating in the top. It had mollies platies and fire belly newts. I never did any pwc nor did I vacuum the gravel. I topped it off every week or two and never treated the water either. (well water) It had the 15 watt fluorescent light that came with the tank and I never turned it off. Tank also stayed on the warm side around 80+ if I remember correctly. Had that tank up for over a year before I moved and broke it down. Never had any problems or any disease outbreaks either.


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## Crystalview (Aug 10, 2007)

Hi the red plant on the left is what? I love the look of your tanks. 

[quote i used to have reinekii but not anymore. its all a ludwgia or rotala specie[/quote]










20 long. been yo for close to 2 years now, has yet to have a water change. emperor tetras breed every few months in it


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

How bout a stylish one year BUMP!

20L looks about the same just really over grown..i might actually have to do its first water change in 4.5 years though. MIGHT.

75 looks like total hell. its almost completely barren. i had a bad duckweed problem, so i thru in a goldfish who solved that duckweed....then went to the plants after not touching them for a month. he ate EVERYTHING. 

However...both tanks have a major change coming. Dont know if it will happen this year or next....im in the process of looking/buying a house and i dont want to put too much effort into the tanks only to have to tear them down for a move a short time after they are ready to go. the end result should be nice though.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

mmm something showed up under one of the tanks today.....i wonder what it could be......<_<.....>_>....


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

20 has been broken down and is empty sitting outside.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

75's life as it has known is coming to an end. in the words of Monty Python " AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!!!!"


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

TheOtherGeoff said:


> 20 has been broken down and is empty sitting outside.


Why!
What happened to pic of tank with new plants?
What were the light over the 20?
What are the dimensions of the 20?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

20 kinda fell to tell when I moved out of my parents house and the plan was to move it all into the 75. The tank became overrun with java moss and it killed every plant in there. So I broke it down. 

20 is a standard 20 long, so 30"x12"x14 or whatever it is tall. Light was a 30" Coralife T5 fixture along with the stock 30" T8 bulb. 75 now has PCs and HO T5 over it. I have a JBJ CO2 system hooked to a 10lb tank right now but not running in the tank. Might not run it with the fish I'm planning to have though.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

TheOtherGeoff said:


> Light was a 30" Coralife T5 fixture along with the stock 30" T8 bulb. I have a JBJ CO2 system hooked to a 10lb tank right now but not running in the tank.


That is a 30" Coralife T5NO with T8 bulbs? 
Any pics of the 10G?


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## Pooky125 (Jul 30, 2002)

Wait. Does that mean you finally moved the beast? Why have I not seen pictures of this yet?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

yes it was the NO T5 coralife fixture. Right now its hanging above my washer and dryer.

10 gallon, yes.










lisa - no, I have no moved it yet. But a wall is up, awaiting drywall, electrical, then floor. Then the tank will arrive. might get taken down this weekend though. maybe.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

TheOtherGeoff said:


> Sure thing. i'll do the best i can.
> 
> 20 long
> Lighting is 1 corlife t5, the stock 30" hood with 24" 20 watt flour tube NO - total 56 watts
> ...


 

Having cared for Discus, I would feel comfortable with saying that water changes with Discus, are all about ones expectations,goals.
Having expierienced,seen, the results of both frequent and fewer water changes with respect to overall growth of these particular fish ,,I would be extremely hesitant to describe weekly water change as nonsense. 
With that said,, your tanks are an inspiration for myself and others.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

its not "real" nonsense, it was just nonsense to me and what I was doing with the fishes. if i was breeding and/or rasing them, I would do normal water changes. When I worked at the store, we did changes on the discus tank ever week or so.


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