# Kessil is equal to ?



## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

Once upon a time (near my join date), I had a dense forest. It was lit by a 250 watt HQI pendent. had CO2, used EI - all was good in the world. Except the bulb burned out. As an emergency went to 2 2x40 watt T8's (given I had a 50 gallon, had some overhang), and things kept growing till I got a new bulb. Then it burned out...

Well since then I have given up on the HQI, went to ODNO, then 2 80 watt power compacts, back to HQI (multiple bulbs, multiple transformers, repairs to pendent - none really helped, would get 2 months tops out of the bulb, back to ODNO (that one caught fire), a Finex Ray 2 (destroyed by a suicidal cat), and now using an Offroad LED light bar (iirc 60 or 80 watts, 20x3 leds I think) - fairly bright with a little shimmer (I really don't want to think of the time, effort, and money my musical lights have wasted. Never got back to HQI shimmer or plant growth.

Currently neglecting the tank, so I can not say that the growth problems are the LED light bars issue or now. Keeping some plants alive, but not thriving. Moss and algae are fighting for dominance... All that really does not matter. Considering getting back to the begging (new ferts, new test kits, and a new light)

Just curious - how does the Kessil (various sizes) compare to a single HQI pendent. The HQI had good enough spill that it covered my 18x36x18 aquarium. I expect 2 160's would give better coverage, a 360 would give better shimmer and duplicate the 250 watt HQI more closely, maybe????


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2433040


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

Looked at my existing fixture, 40 led's (so could be 120 watt). Currently feeding it with a 360 watt power supply. Temp gun shows the fixture maxing at 140. Fairly quiet since only the power supply is fanned.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

The Kessil 360 is 90W but well focused..
Best in a square footprint.
2 160's would be better coverage for a non-square tank...but both are less PAR than your 250mH
BUT depends on reflector/bulb/ballast.. 

Either way both are a lot if you are at normal depths..


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

Kept doing research. General opinions were manufacturers liked to claim that their LED's were the equivalent to a 250 watt MH, but never gave relivent data (which 250 watt MH). In practice, every first person account said they did not look as bright. At the same time, I read instructions to acclimate aquarium by and slowing increasing the light levels of the Kessil and read reports of them bleaching corals (localized levels of too much light). While many seem to be happy with them, I really did not see a single post of better grow with led. Saw several issues of them failing as well.

In the end, it is impossible to reallly compare I guess (apples and oranges). One post mentioned man use them and are happy with them-if they work for you is what matters.

Basicslly back to the drawing board. 2 360's would definitely put more light than 1, or than 2 160's, and most likely more than My current 120 watt, and possibly more than my old 250hqi. As such, I am probably not going with the 2 160's. Am still temped to try the 360, understanding a second would be better than 1... that said, plenty of higher priority things to do first.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

jgc said:


> Kept doing research. General opinions were manufacturers liked to claim that their LED's were the equivalent to a 250 watt MH, but never gave relivent data (which 250 watt MH). In practice, every first person account said they did not look as bright. At the same time, I read instructions to acclimate aquarium by and slowing increasing the light levels of the Kessil and read reports of them bleaching corals (localized levels of too much light). While many seem to be happy with them, I really did not see a single post of better grow with led. Saw several issues of them failing as well.
> 
> In the end, it is impossible to reallly compare I guess (apples and oranges). One post mentioned man use them and are happy with them-if they work for you is what matters.
> 
> Basicslly back to the drawing board. 2 360's would definitely put more light than 1, or than 2 160's, and most likely more than My current 120 watt, and possibly more than my old 250hqi. As such, I am probably not going with the 2 160's. Am still temped to try the 360, understanding a second would be better than 1... that said, plenty of higher priority things to do first.


@2 Aquaticlife HALO's (Master/slave) are, arguably a better choice at that price point.
Now to be perfectly clear, while Kessil reef lights are just fine, I find the freshwater way behind the current curve of freshwater lighting.
Restricting the range from 6000-9000k is downright primitive to today's "standards"

bugs me that they don't use their tech to at least supplement red/cyan in their FW..
kind of a throw out a bone line..
They understand the issues, they sell hort. lights (which btw are about 1/2 the cost of "aquarium specific" lights, another gotcha point, being overpriced for the sake of being overpriced..)


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

Well slowly making progress with diving into the deep end with the restart. Pulled out my co2 cylinder to go get it refilled (that would have been a 5 hr trip) only to find it still had some residual pressure. Seems I must have shut off the valve at some point to conserve co2 after the tank failed (assume the cat suicide). Ordered an eheim 350 surface skimmer to deal with my messy eaters (without the air stones that are currently keeping them alive). Noticed that autodosers are more affordable, so will have one of those in a few days as well.

Working on getting a new diatom filter, looking at a bear valley Vortex conversion.
Will hunt the classified for plants soon (attempting Monday shipping)


Which leaves ordering the light and asc. At a loss as to best Kessil vender. Will probably just randomly pick one when I get back from work (lfs is over 2hrs away and unlikely to stock them anyway)


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## huhu89151734 (Jun 29, 2010)

So what was your question again? I kinda got lost reading every post. 

My exp with Kessil is they are good lighting for growing plants. Whatever i throw in the tank grows. But the color temp, even if i dial the light to its lowest temp setting, would wash out the redplants' color. Kinda like the same problem with those old ADA 8000K HQI bulbs.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

huhu89151734 said:


> So what was your question again? I kinda got lost reading every post.
> 
> My exp with Kessil is they are good lighting for growing plants. Whatever i throw in the tank grows. But the color temp, even if i dial the light to its lowest temp setting, would wash out the redplants' color. Kinda like the same problem with those old ADA 8000K HQI bulbs.


bingo.. poor CRI, poor range...

BTW: In case anyone was wondering .. this honesty is to get Kessil off their as..... not to berate any users..










One 5700K luminous devices 98CRI chip will beat the pants of that one........
http://www.luminus.com/products/Luminus_Xnova_Studio_Datasheet.pdf

Check the red component and high cyan on the 5600k chip


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## huhu89151734 (Jun 29, 2010)

jeffkrol said:


> bingo.. poor CRI, poor range...
> 
> BTW: In case anyone was wondering .. this honesty is to get Kessil off their as..... not to berate any users..



But i would argue this is the problem with all of the current LEDs on the market. Just some are bad and some are worse


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

not really...but first since I found it..again 









But back to the subject.. It is inherent in lights that use only higher k whites and of course those w/ poor QC..
Take the Finnex w/ 8000k whites but adds 660nm reds.. May not "score" the best CRI but substitutes "red pop". 
Fluval "scores" 8000k but uses ww,cw, and colors.. 
aquaticlife Halo..
Sat plus pro
SAt plus
Finnex 24/7


even multi-colored Chinese stuff on eek bay has added "colors"
And for a change it is not just a gimmick..

If you want to compare the Kessil to anything.. finnex RayII or any 6500K Beamsworks.. but think of the price difference..

My main point is Kessil should know better..look at their hort. line. Not sure why they haven't upgraded their chip to be honest..

apparently they think it is "good enough" I beg to differ..
does it grow plants sure.
does it shimmer ..sure
does it look cool.. yep..
But even candles (with enough of them) will grow plants.. and maybe even better, being high in red.. and a blackbody spread..

since I am on a roll here.. I'll add the next "oddity" of the Kessils..
Kessil "logic" allows one to maintain a constant output w a change in spectrum.. i.e as you, say increase ch2 (say the 9000k channel) ch1 needs to decrease to maintain a constant output.
Great concept but keep in mind that means at 50/50 the ind. channels are running at 1/2 power..

In other words the light, theoretically is capable of 2x the output but it throttled down to make headroom for spectrum tweaking..
At least that is how I see it..

If you get bored..Keep in mind some is def. *opinion*..
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1058594-tmc-grobeam-1500-x2-fluval-plant-2-0-x2-3.html
https://youtu.be/L3LWXznJx_0


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcg64i8VFKk&t=148s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZHllX8HSsc&t=48s


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

charlie 1 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcg64i8VFKk&t=148s
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZHllX8HSsc&t=48s












It is what it is..









I stand by what I said...........

Like Bose vs Klipsch..



















sorry playing w/ a new (used) camera...
AND it is a bit unfair since the foreground light is a Sorra high CRI chip based on a violet pump @5000k
Background lighting is Luminous Devices 4000k high CRI.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

jeffkrol said:


> It is what it is..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FYI , my links is for the benefit of the OP to have a visual of real life, perhaps those tanks will fit his desire.
Had it been in reference to anything you posted , i would have quoted you directly , in your words -it is what it is.

This is direct response to your reference of Bose and Klipsch - for my personal taste , neither is worth listening to, too bright/harsh my refined listening appeal .
Regards


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> for my personal taste , neither is worth listening to, too bright/harsh my refined listening appeal .
> Regards


Ironic.. that is how I usually feel about >7000K LED lighting.. 









The Best Aquarium Light For Beginners

RAYII










Planted plus..


> If you’ve previously used flouroescent lights, you’ll be shocked at how much brighter and more vivid your tank will look with these things—it’s ridiculous.
> 
> LED lights like this are what gives that ‘extra pop’ to those professional setups like TheGreenMachine and others.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

jeffkrol said:


> Ironic.. that is how I usually feel about >7000K LED lighting..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> the common idea is to grow plants -period!


Then you should go w/ these..









sorry, couldn't resist.. I'll stop now...

http://growershouse.com/blog/kessil-h380-led-grow-light-review-and-test/


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

jeffkrol said:


> Then you should go w/ these..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually i have easy access to those & i might just try them , thanks.
Somehow i doubt you will step down from your soap box, can`t be so
Kessil have an opening for a qualified lighting expert, just saying :smile2:


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

do you guys feel like $80 amazon.com LED lights grow just as well as a $200+ brand name light like kessil?

a $80 light has been working great for me, my plants are touching the top of my water surface. should I upgrade to a kessil?


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

IntotheWRX said:


> do you guys feel like $80 amazon.com LED lights grow just as well as a $200+ brand name light like kessil?
> 
> a $80 light has been working great for me, my plants are touching the top of my water surface. should I upgrade to a kessil?


My approach is if it ain`t broke don`t fix it, I`m not exclusive to any brand. At present i use a Tek light 4X54 T5 HO on my 80 gallon and couldn`t be happuer, a Kessil A160 on a 60P, Kessil A80 on a 15 gallon,Current USA Sat, plus pro on a 8.8 gallon, TMC AquaRay GroBeam 1500 Ultima LED Tile on a 15 gallon, they all do the job and i like how they look .
If you choose to look hard enough at each brand,one can point out flaws of each, for me i prefer to use that time to enjoy growing plants and aquascaping to some degree.
I have used Finnex, sunlight hydroponic T5 HO strip lights in the past with cheap bulbs with the same enjoyment.
Regards


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

I do this to try to get Kessil off their as.. not to insult anyone else..

They have "upgraded" their reef lighting to multi-channel color enhanced fixtures.. Should follow suit w/ FW.. 
Kessil LED Lights





> Full Color Spectrum
> The new generation Dense Matrix LED brings aquarium lighting colors to a new level. Full Color Spectrum is now available for the AP700. With the iPad app, users can choose a range of blue from Deep Ocean Blue to Sky Blue, and can even select other colors such as green, yellow, red and purple for a different aesthetic.



my only belief is they want to keep that "ADA" MH look.. high white.. that sells well..
sometimes less is not more...
They should offer more of a fw choice..and the only way to achieve this is..................how again???

my only belief is they want to keep that "ADA" MH look.. high white.. that sells well..
They should offer more of a fw choice..
Keep their other one AFAIC.. bring on an upgrade..

Bump:


charlie 1 said:


> My approach is if it ain`t broke don`t fix it


some "feel" it is broke...or at the least.. too regressive..
NOW on to ONE more nit to pick.
Doesn't bother you that you pay $100 JUST because it is for an aquarium?



> H380 Halo II LED Algae Grow Light - Kessilfrom BulkReefSupply.com
> 7 product reviews
> 
> Growing a macro algae in your refugium or sump can help reduce nitrate and phosphate levels in your saltwater tank while providing a safe harbor for micro-fauna to thrive. The ...
> ...





> *Kessil A360W-E Tuna Sun LED Aquarium Light - Wide Angle*
> 
> *$399.00*


Same supplier..


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

jeffkrol said:


> I do this to try to get Kessil off their as.. not to insult anyone else..
> 
> They have "upgraded" their reef lighting to multi-channel color enhanced fixtures.. Should follow suit w/ FW..
> Kessil LED Lights
> ...


To answer your question, dose not bother me one bit, if i like it and can afford it - i buy it.


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

My aquarium is 36x18x21. It was originally set up with a single HQI MH pendent, and I liked it. Kind of always wished I had opted for the Giesemann Nova 2 for looks, but pieced together an Ocean Medic and had issues (over time I changed the bulb holders several times, and switched from icecap e-ballists to Ocean Medic Magnetic. First bulb lasted 4 months, second maybe 2, last 2 bulbs a week each. I loved the look, the shimmer, and the growth-hated the lack of dependability and resulting plant stress/death (I was away from home most weeks, so usually took a minimum of a week or two to notice it failed.

Since then I have used a lot of lights, some grew plants better than others, all (but my current) ended up either failing spectacularly, or I tired of their mantenence. (Power compact-expensive bulbs and expensive endcaps).

Hoping for the look, shimmer, and growth of MH pendent-with low maintenance (MH Achilles Heal imho, was for mine anyway). It appears the Kessil has the look and shimmer, but lacks the spectrum and intensity-no clue about growth. Will see if a few months down the road, it is good enough. As it is designed as a MH pendent replacement, I have my fingers crossed. I am sure they could possibly do better, right now going to try for good enough. Can later fix intensity if necessary-spectrum and growth less so.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Jeff,

If you haven't chosen a light yet and are looking for some practical work with Kessil lights I highly suggest looking up George Farmer on YouTube. He's used a few of their lights on different tanks and is currently using 2 on a 48" setup he's had going for a while now. From all I can tell they're excellent lights if they have the look and options you want. According to George the newer models are wired to handle a remote control which is something that brand's been lacking for a while. 

I'm currently using 2x Radion XR15 FW on my 48x24 setup and am really happy with them for a puck style LED. They're very customizable and put out more light than I think I'll ever need (currently at 50% approx 23" from the water's surface). The spread's good enough to grow foreground plants in the far corners, even with the 80 degree lens. However, the high intensity in the hot zone can limit aquascaping options and is making me consider going with the 120 degree TIR lenses to diffuse the spot light and get a bit better overall spread. If you look at the pic of my tank a few months back you can see that I put a lot of wood and hardscape plants right in the hot zone. That caused me all sorts of problems while the system was maturing. If you're not going to use much hardscape or are going with an iwagumi style you'll have less to worry about. 

Based on past experience with 250w HQI, My best guess is that either the Kessil or EcoTech fixtures can put out light that'll get you in 150-250 HQI range depending on how hard you want to push them. 



Cheers,
Phil


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I have a pair of A160we Tuna Suns over a 120H. I'm no lighting expert and bought them mostly on appearance because I wanted a pendant style led over the tank that had a ramp up/down feature. They're connected to a Kessil Spectral Controller which enables you to adjust the output/color and, as I alluded to, program the lights to ramp up/down over the course of the photoperiod. They're about 30 inches over the substrate and at the peak of the photoperiod are at 60% output. I would imagine at 100% they would grow most any plant you desire. I have no very demanding plants, just ferns, moss and very thich carpet of Marsilea crenata, M. hirsuta and Lilaeopsis mauritiana. I'm extremely pleased with the lights and have not regretted purchasing them from day one, although going from a T5HO to a light that produces the amount of shimmer these do did take some getting used to. 

I'm not sure what all the negativity regarding Kessils is about that always seems to come up when a certain someone offers his opinions regarding them. I know, no cyan/magenta. I guess this cuts down on the pop from red plants which I know some people want. There are plenty of reviews from satisfied users all over the internet. Among more notable users are George Farmer, as Phil mentioned above, and the guys at ADG. I asked Tom Barr's opinion between Kessils and an ATI Sunpower before buying and he said that her personally liked Kessils.

As Phil said, he really likes his Radions and so do a lot of other people. Aquatic Life Halo's are another pendant style led that gets good reviews. I usually look for reviews from people with actual hands on experience when considering making a purchase. I also like to buy from vendors with a good return policy so I can return the item(s) if I'm not happy with them. If you're concerned about lack of power from the 160's then I would go with the 360.

There are good options available and setting up your tank should be an enjoyable experience.


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## PEdwards (Oct 31, 2016)

Sorry Jeff, I didn't see that you'd already bought the lights. Didn't mean to give unsolicited advice after the fact. I hate it when people do that to me.

Cheers,
Phil


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

PEdwards said:


> Sorry Jeff, I didn't see that you'd already bought the lights. Didn't mean to give unsolicited advice after the fact. I hate it when people do that to me.
> 
> Cheers,
> Phil


Hey, Phil. I was just offering my 2 cents to the OP. I'm not sure if he has made his decision yet.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> 10-24-2015, 05:54 AM
> I've switched lights around a fair amount and they turn a much more visible red color, true color so to speak, when you use redder color bulbs. A little blue is good also, and it balances out the gaudy red colors.and some white will help also.
> 
> What is needed, is a nice LED like the Kessil 360 tuna sun........but instead of the high blue tuning........remove say 30-40% of thr blue emitters and replace with the reds in the 630-700nm range and tune THOSE.
> ...



LED's that grow RED plants - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report
http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/lighting/232075-lighting-advice-requested/page2

see it is not just me.. I'm just not as nice..


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that most people don't think leds are where they should be for the fw planted tank. Correct me if I am mistaken. What about BML? I know they are gone now, but everyone liked the fixtures, did they suffer from the shortcomings of other lights, like the ones by finnex? The kessils are not worth it, aquatic life halos are better from what I have heard. Or a custom fixture at the latest price point.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

These repeated discussion about X vs Y is better reminds me of the hamster on a wheel :grin2::grin2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXRH50fvHWA


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## huhu89151734 (Jun 29, 2010)

sohankpatel said:


> After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that most people don't think leds are where they should be for the fw planted tank. Correct me if I am mistaken. What about BML? I know they are gone now, but everyone liked the fixtures, did they suffer from the shortcomings of other lights, like the ones by finnex? The kessils are not worth it, aquatic life halos are better from what I have heard. Or a custom fixture at the latest price point.



The person IMO has best success with BML is Dennis Wang. And he said on his journal that he does supply a couple of CFL bulbs on top of the tank when viewing/ taking pictures. 

BTW as a current Kissel user, it is far from not worth it.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

https://youtu.be/qoOpizZrtOM

Actually Mr. Wong has a good vid..
Suggest jumping to 10:20-ish ...


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

Hooked the A360 up last night. Good shimmer, not MH intensity. The MH felt like it was giving you a sunburn when your hand was under it, this one is hardly noticeable. That said, could just be more IR spectrum from he MH


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

This is at about 60%. 100% is a little brighter. Currently mostly red spectrum and plugin timer. Still tempted to get the Kessil spectrum controller.

Most of the plants were planted today and I have not started dosing EI yet. Using a weekly timer in front of the autodoser to schedule M-W-F and T-Th-Sat by using staggered dose window and turning power off for the dose windows on no dose days.. will see growth over the next few weeks. Without frets was seeing some growth on my existing rica, but not a lot yet.


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## huhu89151734 (Jun 29, 2010)

Spectrum controller is just a cool equipment to have but definitely not something that helps plant growth noticeably if at all.


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