# New Sump for 100gl. Discus Tank.



## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

Starting in earnest on my Discus tank project now.

This is the sump I have designed from lessons learned in recent
60 gallon project.

4 consecutive chambers of mechanical filtration.
10+gal. of bio-media storage area.
extreme low agitation design to keep Co2 from off gassing.
Sealed top

Will incorporate other external features as well. 
Watch for updates and build pics.

Get a better animation up soon too.

24" x 24" x 18" / 40+gallons


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I assume this will sit under the aquarium, in the cabinet, hidden from view? Are you doing this primarily to keep equipment out of the aquarium, or for the massive filtration media it will hold? I'm asking only because I have been trying to understand the attraction of sumps vs canister filters. But, 40 gallons of sump for a 100 gallon aquarium?? Isn't that considerably more than is conventional?


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

Can *never* have too much filtration
Especially for Discus.

This will be in the garage on other side of wall from aquarium
in insulated "equipment cabinet"


Attractions:

I can build this for about half the cost of an FX5

I will have 2-4 times the filtration of an FX5

The more actual water volume you have the better.
water gets dirty slower and it offsets all the gravel wood and rocks in the
tank, so that I will have a true 100gallons in the system instead of 60-70

Canister filter has about 1/2" of filter floss to pass thru to
help polish water. This will have about 2 feet of filter floss.

Place to keep all the heaters and diffusers that I think just
ruin a nice tank.

This will also be part of a hands off continuous drip water change
system too. Cant do that with a canister.


Canisters are nice cause you pull them out of the box, snap em together
and you're done. Which is what 99% of the population needs. Sumps can
be made for cheaper and provide twice the filtration though if you like
tinkering like I do.


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## ath3ist (Mar 17, 2008)

very nice sump layout, keep us updated with the project:thumbsup:


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I will be following this one too. I never tried a sump, and still may not do so, but I say that about a lot of stuff, then before I know it I have an overpowering urge to make one.


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## kali (May 8, 2009)

rbarn said:


> Can *never* have too much filtration
> Sumps can
> be made for cheaper and provide twice the filtration


:thumbsup: sump can be really good for bio filter but never for mechanical filter. run the sump with the fx5 . prefect of both worlds


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

kali said:


> :thumbsup: but never for mechanical filter. run the sump with the fx5 . prefect of both worlds


Yes it can, sumps are MUCH better mechanical filter if designed right.

Trick is making sure water flows up thru filter floss in staged
chambers that it can not bypass around.

Making animation that shows water flow thru the sump. Stand by.


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## PDX-PLT (Feb 14, 2007)

rbarn said:


> Can *never* have too much filtration
> Especially for Discus.


Lots of discus keepers use minimal filtration; e.g., only running a sponge filter doing some bio filtration. They consider mechanical filtration a bad thing - the filter traps and holds waste, which then decomposes and ultimately adds to the nitrate level in the tank, which they try to keep as low as possible.

As a substitute for mechanical filtration, they do large, frequent water changes, during which they remove the waste. This seems to be preferred over a continuous WC system.

If you're dealing with adults, rather than fast-growing juveniles, this is less of an issue. With adults, there's less food waste and excrement to deal with.

Also, I wondered about the "sealed top". I thought one feature of a sump was exposure of the bio media to the air, to enhance the function of the aerobic bacteria. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you didn't want a sealed top with a sump (which is why they tend not to be preferred in CO2 systems, as compared to canisters).


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

Bit of a common misunderstanding there.

Wet/Dry's dont add any real O2 to water or bio-media in the trickle area
Good top to bottom circulation in the tank takes care of that along with
the overflow box itself.

Co2 guys dont like em cause most are designed to agitate the water a lot
which causes out gassing. This sump takes care of that.


Discus guys use sponge filters and massive water changes cause juvi
Discus require 6 or more feedings a day and yes that makes a mess out
of ANY filter. Why they keep bare bottom tanks too. 

I plan on getting adults to bypass the headaches of keeping young Discus.

This is going to be a planted tank also so the usual messy Discus diet of
beef heart will be dialed back as well.


Nice thing about this sump will be ease of maintenance too.
Pre-filter sponges and filter floss will be able to be changed quicker and easier
than a canister filter. just open lid and pull and replace. Whole thing could stay
running at same time as well.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

The debate regarding filtration is never ending. 
I'm dialing back on my defense of the sump but really liked your efforts on the 3D animation. Kudos X2 and enjoy your new build! 

I'll be flooding mine when I return from vacation in two weeks and will find out then how well my design will really work. At the very least it will be easier to access and clean.


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

Water flow animation

Every time ball travels up in the first 4 chambers it will be 
passing thru either pre-filter sponge of filter floss.

Big chamber in center is for bio-media.


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## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

The funny thing about sumps is that people who don't have them like to tell people who do have them how bad they are. I don't get it.


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## Regloh (Jan 17, 2009)

Well as a general feedback to the guys who are arguing FOR sumps, you got me interested. I may, one day, try it. One thing I have been thinking about is the following. 

Most anti-sump people claim the CO2 loss due to large surface contact with the air... especially if you have a "dry" section or a trickle filter in there. What about using that particular area and flooding it with CO2. Wouldn't that be a near perfect reactor? 
What do you think?


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## kali (May 8, 2009)

rbarn said:


> Yes it can, sumps are MUCH better mechanical filter if designed right.
> 
> Trick is making sure water flows up thru filter floss in staged
> chambers that it can not bypass around.
> ...


i would love to see how your sump turn out and how it help you with mechanical filter ...on my 210 gallon reef ready tank . with oceanic sump .design really well . 3 big sponge filter for mechanical but my water never crytal clean .. till i got my eheim pro 3 2080 in there ,,now it talking about business . LOL , keep us post as the plan go along please


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## sunfire99 (Apr 8, 2009)

kid creole said:


> The funny thing about sumps is that people who don't have them like to tell people who do have them how bad they are. I don't get it.


Now that's the truth.:thumbsup: 

I don't "defend" sumps, but would argue the claims that they are "not good for planted tanks". As for CO2 offgassing, my 5lb cylinder is approaching 3 months use in a 100 gallon display tank that uses a sump, and that's running CO2 12 hours per day. The sump is also an EXCELLENT mechanical filter. I use only a 100 micron filter sock on the overflow and it removes 4 or 5 times the gunk that the XP3 running in the same tank collects.


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## kali (May 8, 2009)

sunfire99 said:


> Now that's the truth.:thumbsup:
> 
> I don't "defend" sumps, but would argue the claims that they are "not good for planted tanks". As for CO2 offgassing, my 5lb cylinder is approaching 3 months use in a 100 gallon display tank that uses a sump, and that's running CO2 12 hours per day. The sump is also an EXCELLENT mechanical filter. I use only a 100 micron filter sock on the overflow and it removes 4 or 5 times the gunk that the XP3 running in the same tank collects.


sunfire99 can you post of how you put the filter sock on the overflow box ? someone back then told me filter sock work really good , but the only way i can do it .it to put it right in my sump which i have to mod the sump for the sock , and i refuse .. show me how you do it ,i'll put that in my overflow and get rip of the eheim .
sorry for the hijack


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

If you want to think of it as a canister filter you can.

Basically its a 2' X 2' X 1.5' canister in the shape of a box.

It will have (4) pre-filter chambers and (1) large bio-media chamber.
Will flow 50% more water than an FX5 and cost 50% less.

Trick with sumps and mechanical filtration is upflow design like
I have used. Water has nowhere to go but thru several inches of
filter floss.


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## sunfire99 (Apr 8, 2009)

kali said:


> sunfire99 can you post of how you put the filter sock on the overflow box ? someone back then told me filter sock work really good , but the only way i can do it .it to put it right in my sump which i have to mod the sump for the sock , and i refuse .. show me how you do it ,i'll put that in my overflow and get rip of the eheim .
> sorry for the hijack


Mine is in the sump. Here's a picture of it. You can see it in the back there at the inflow to the sump. I have a bulkhead fitting there, and the pipe in the sump that the filter is tied to extends down into the water. When I need to "clean" it I just turn off the return pump, remove the pipe with filter sock attached, turn it inside out and remove any snails that I want to keep and replace it with a clean one. I run the dirty bag through the washer with no soap, and let it hang dry. I din't fix the sock more permanently to the pipe because I figured if the sock becomes badly clogged with dirt the inflow may slide it off the pipe and not cause a flood. I clean it monthly and it hasn't been close to clogged to the point of not allowing water flow. I cleaned my canister one time in the past 2 months and it had very little dirt compared to what the sock collects.


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## kali (May 8, 2009)

sunfire99 said:


> Mine is in the sump. Here's a picture of it. You can see it in the back there at the inflow to the sump. I have a bulkhead fitting there, and the pipe in the sump that the filter is tied to extends down into the water. When I need to "clean" it I just turn off the return pump, remove the pipe with filter sock attached, turn it inside out and remove any snails that I want to keep and replace it with a clean one. I run the dirty bag through the washer with no soap, and let it hang dry. I din't fix the sock more permanently to the pipe because I figured if the sock becomes badly clogged with dirt the inflow may slide it off the pipe and not cause a flood. I clean it monthly and it hasn't been close to clogged to the point of not allowing water flow. I cleaned my canister one time in the past 2 months and it had very little dirt compared to what the sock collects.


the op you said that in the overflow box thats why i asked ..... i know that can put in the sump but right under in inflow is my bio -ball tower. its the same height at the sump and will only be good right under the inflow for better bio-filter , if i move it the bio ball only wet where ever the water raising up to . dont know where to move that anyways neat sump set- up you got there 
hey rbarn : sorry dude didn't mean to hijack your thread ... 
KALI


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Will you, or do you, have to keep the sump totally dark all the time to avoid algae growths in it? I know the biofilm is largely bacteria, which is beneficial, but algae should grow if there is light. My fear of sumps is that I keep thinking of them as just another aquarium tank I would have to keep cleaning periodically, but this one would be down in the cabinet under the tank, where access would be difficult. (I don't mind exposing my ignorance of sumps.)


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

Would probably grow algae if exposed to enough light.

the one under my 60 gal. gets a little ambient light from the back, but
has yet to grow any algae at all.


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## notoptimal (Jan 5, 2007)

Hoppy said:


> Will you, or do you, have to keep the sump totally dark all the time to avoid algae growths in it? I know the biofilm is largely bacteria, which is beneficial, but algae should grow if there is light. My fear of sumps is that I keep thinking of them as just another aquarium tank I would have to keep cleaning periodically, but this one would be down in the cabinet under the tank, where access would be difficult. (I don't mind exposing my ignorance of sumps.)


 Saltwater keepers use a strong light on an emersed screen or tank divider to intentionally grow algae and soak up nitrates and phosphates. However, this involves putting a strong light under the stand where the screen is. I would think that light leakage into a stand (or, say, an under-stand light that's only on when equipment is being serviced) shouldn't cause a problem.

notopt


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## sunfire99 (Apr 8, 2009)

I have used lights over a sump for macro algae nitrate filters on salt tanks and the cabinet on this tank was built to house a light also but not using it. With no regular light being used on this one my sump has had zero algae issues.


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

$150 in acrylic from Lowes and about 2 hrs work

Design is simplified. First system was going to be too much work to build.

This one has (2) mechanical filtration chambers 6" x 7" X 20" each
with up-flow design for zero bypass.

Bio media chamber is about 2.7 sq ft or right at 20 gallons.

Last chamber is for heaters, Co2, drip system, overflow drain and pump pick-up.

System should flow just under 700gph with an external Mag 9 return pump.


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## kali (May 8, 2009)

dude that looking really good .. youre real handy man, 
question : whats kind of glue to connect those join together?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

If I ever try this, and I am thinking about it, I will use a spare 10 gallon glass tank I have, and make the dividers out of acrylic. Or, try to make them out of glass, making each one a simple rectangle, no notches. Making the entire thing from sheet acrylic seems like a major headache to prevent any external leaks.

Please, please take photos of the build process. That is the key to doing this, it seems to me.


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

Its called "Weld On"
comes in different grades that have to do with how thick a liquid it is.

I use Weld On #16 since my gaps aren't perfect.
Weld On #4 is thinner and used with perfect gaps.

Stuff is not a glue, but a solvent cement. Actually melts and refuses
the acrylic at a molecular level. Like a true "weld" with metal.

Leaks are non-issue. This solvent makes really nice seals, and on top
of that I run a small bead of silicone on the main shell's inside corners just in case.

You just use off the shelf pieces of acrylic from lowes. Tape them together
loosely and add cement. The cement weeps into seems and sets up in couple of hours.


Google: Working with acrylic. Lots of DIY artcls out there from the reef guys.

Excellent one
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/7/diy


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

Little vid of the complete system planned.

Fairly rough, but everything is to scale


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

Sump is finally done. Lid and all. Just need to install bulkheads and media.











Incorporated a Co2 diffusion area into the sump also.
Co2 will get knocked around in channels before getting sucked
up by pump and sent to tank. Should give 100% diffusion. Nowhere for
Co2 to go and by the time it makes it to the tank, should be full dissolved.


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## Regloh (Jan 17, 2009)

Nice! Why didn't you make the CO2 area taller? It would allow for a higher drop and more swirling of CO2. 
I see that you chose to hinge the lid. I assume you have enough clearance above the sump for that? I guess you need that room anyway for maintenance of the sump...
Very nice work! I need to make sure I bookmark this thread for when I get around to making something like this...


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

Scale is little deceptive in pic.
each of those channels is 12 inches high.

Could have made them little higher, but this also
worked out nice using scraps I had left over too.


Sump is going to be on other side of wall out in garage in custom "equipment"
box. All the room I need for hinged lid.


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## Regloh (Jan 17, 2009)

12 inches should be enough I'd say 
Wow that means that your box is much bigger than I had pictured...
In that case (size) I would also hinge the lid... You don't want to have to move that around... more likely to break it. 
When are you going to drill the bulkheads? Anxious to see it in action


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## TwoValveKid (Aug 15, 2009)

Excellent setup. I personally am setting up a 75 gallon AGA reef ready tank that was a full blown reef tank at one point. Its going to be a planted aquarium and i love the idea of a sump for many reasons. It keeps things under the tank and allows me to use practically any filtration i want. The sump is minimal, just an empty tank, but im going to fun an FX5 with an aqua ultraviolet sterilizer and another home made "canister" loaded with some eheim material. It's great because i can have all of this under the tank, keep it hidden, and dont have the crazy flow through the tank. Gives places to put heaters and such too. Keeps the tank very clean looking.


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## animalmgc (Apr 16, 2009)

do we have an update on this?


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

Sorry, guys got a new job in another city so whole project
got put off.

Saved the sump and it's in a closet, so maybe try later after
get moved.

:icon_conf


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