# Substrate reccomendations



## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

I bought UP aqua soil on greenleafaquariums.com Its a little cheaper. Or u can get fluval stratum on kensfish.com for a good price. Both are much better then eco I'm sure you will be impressed.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


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## stefus_prime (Jul 3, 2013)

bankruptjojo said:


> I bought UP aqua soil on greenleafaquariums.com Its a little cheaper. Or u can get fluval stratum on kensfish.com for a good price. Both are much better then eco I'm sure you will be impressed.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


I think I'll research the UP Aquasoil a bit, it's currently out of stock but for it seems promising. How much would I need to fill up a 55g suitably? I don't remember how much I needed to fill up my 20g a few years back ha ha


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## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

stefus_prime said:


> I think I'll research the UP Aquasoil a bit, it's currently out of stock but for it seems promising. How much would I need to fill up a 55g suitably? I don't remember how much I needed to fill up my 20g a few years back ha ha


It took 3 to fill my 75g but its very deep with a huge slope. I think 2 bags should be plenty. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


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## Subtletanks91 (May 29, 2013)

If you want something like Ada. Why not use azoo plant grower bed. It's the same thing. But doesn't leech any ammonia in the water. And from what I have heard is made in the same factory or wherever Ada is made.


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## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

Subtletanks91 said:


> If you want something like Ada. Why not use azoo plant grower bed. It's the same thing. But doesn't leech any ammonia in the water. And from what I have heard is made in the same factory or wherever Ada is made.


i dont think that is right... i think the ammonia leaching has something to do with added nutrients. my UP aqua soil had ammonia but the fluval did not.... i can say the UP is deff better and would guess more comparable to ADA. sounds like the azoo is more like the fluval. we know the fluval is missing some key nutrients. well i should say i read here under substrate that it is.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Azoo Plant Grower Bed is not the same thing as ADA Aquasoil Amazonia. The only similarity: they're both little balls of dirt.

APGB is okay for undemanding plants but it doesn't provide all the nutrients you'll need. Its buffering capacity is also quite limited when compared to ADA.

If you want something like Aquasoil, just bite the bullet and get Aquasoil. It's cheaper than the other products being mentioned here by a long shot when you factor in the volume of product you get, what it does and how long it lasts. (Feel free to search the forum for some size and cost comparisons I've done).

Note: Fluval Stratum contains next to nothing for plants and breaks down quickly compared to similar substrates.


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## wheeling (May 6, 2013)

Just use Turface, it is cheap and will reduce your kH and pH a little.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Buffering ability of Turface, Safe T Sorb and the like is quite limited and varies from batch to batch. 

pH truly isn't something to worry about with most freshwater species as long as you maintain the water hardness necessary for a given type of critter.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Why don't you use MTS (mineralized topsoil), with a sand/graval cap. I think that is the most economical, if slightly tedious method. Depending on what you add into the MTS, it can be quite fertile; in fact I think its more fertile than many commercially available substrates. With a proper fertilization regime, your plants will grow just as well. To really save costs, buy dry ferts and mix your own.


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

Xiaozhuang said:


> Why don't you use MTS (mineralized topsoil), with a sand/graval cap. I think that is the most economical, if slightly tedious method. Depending on what you add into the MTS, it can be quite fertile; in fact I think its more fertile than many commercially available substrates. With a proper fertilization regime, your plants will grow just as well. To really save costs, buy dry ferts and mix your own.


If you do the dirt and sand cap thing, just make sure you like your scape and don't move stuff too often. It does work well for plants and it's cheap, but this is what happened when I pulled up all of my jungle vals, and it took a full 24 hours to clear:


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## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

somewhatshocked said:


> Azoo Plant Grower Bed is not the same thing as ADA Aquasoil Amazonia. The only similarity: they're both little balls of dirt.
> 
> APGB is okay for undemanding plants but it doesn't provide all the nutrients you'll need. Its buffering capacity is also quite limited when compared to ADA.
> 
> ...


you didnt say anything about the UP aqua soil... it seems to be pretty close to the ADA... iv had it in my tank for around 8 months and still brings my ph for 7.8 down to 6.6. just wondering if you have heard anything positive or negative about it. so far i have nothing but good things to say. the balls are very "strong" and heavy compared to the fluval iv been using. 

still havnt bite the bullet and tried ADA so i cant honestly compare them.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

UP Aqua is about the same as Mr. Aqua and Azoo and similar to Fluval Stratum. 

There's unfortunately nothing special about to justify the price.

Decent substrates if you don't have plants that need lots of nutrients, just need moderate buffering and have a small tank. Otherwise, ADA wins out because of the volume of product you get for the price, available nutrients, buffering capacity, etc.


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## Phantomic (Apr 17, 2013)

The extremely expensive ADA stuff is just dirt rolled up into little balls. Save yourself loads of money and make some MTS. I works just as well, if not better than Aquasoil for much much less. You can add a dusting of peat moss on the bottom layer of the tank before putting in the MTS to lower your PH a bit. If you don't want the hassle that MTS brings along, then you can use the Diana Walstad method and just use MGOCPM with red clay.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Both can grow plants but they're definitely not similar.

Most people use active substrates because they hold up for years, can be moved around with relative ease when rescaping, are loaded with nutrients, buffer pH for _years_, buffer hardness a bit and provide an ammonia source for an initial cycle.

Top soil, while cheap and useful, is messy, can't be easily rescaped, can't always be used with sensitive shrimp, doesn't buffer, and doesn't even compare on an aesthetic front.

Each serve different purposes when it comes to aquascaping.


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## pantherspawn (Dec 21, 2011)

I use a combo of fluorite and small pea gravel. Gives the bed a very natural look along with all of my homemade river rock and slate caves. I've had it for over two years now with never an issue. Allows waste to breakdown and feed the root system without raising my nitrate levels in the tank. I never vacuum the substrate. 

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2


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## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

somewhatshocked said:


> UP Aqua is about the same as Mr. Aqua and Azoo and similar to Fluval Stratum.
> 
> There's unfortunately nothing special about to justify the price.
> 
> Decent substrates if you don't have plants that need lots of nutrients, just need moderate buffering and have a small tank. Otherwise, ADA wins out because of the volume of product you get for the price, available nutrients, buffering capacity, etc.


well guess ill give ada a try next time. even if i have to sell a organ to do it 

can i ask where your getting your info? other members, experience or the ingredients on the bag?

thanks, 
bankruptjojo


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## Quick5ilver (Jun 24, 2013)

Aqua soil is something isn't it?


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

If you do cost comparisons, you'll find that it's cheaper than Azoo Plant Grower Bed, Mr. Aqua, UP Aqua and others.

I'm speaking from direct first-hand experience. Azoo does come pretty close in terms of buffering ability but it's not as low and isn't as long-lasting.

Update - some info from various other threads where we've discussed this topic:










2kg of Shrimp Sand is about $25 to your door unless you buy in bulk. 

5kg of Azoo is about $38 to have it shipped from Marine Depot. Unless you buy in bulk. Since Azoo is lighter than UP Aqua products, you get 4-6 times as much product for your money.










It's just under $50 to have 9L of Aquasoil shipped to your door. You get 3-4 times as much substrate as you do with Azoo. So the $20ish in shipping charges is worth it.



bankruptjojo said:


> well guess ill give ada a try next time. even if i have to sell a organ to do it
> 
> can i ask where your getting your info? other members, experience or the ingredients on the bag?
> 
> ...


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## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

thank you shocked very helpful. ill def go with ada next time...

do you add anything to your ada, under the substrate? i know amano does but i never have and have had great growth. is the stuff under the substrate more for longevity?


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## sarahspins (Sep 24, 2012)

I just ordered a bag of shrimp sand from Amazon for $18.48 - I am only planning on using it in a 4g tank (which currently has black diamond - anything will be an improvement over that) so I didn't need very much.

Amazon.com: U.P. Aqua Shrimp Sand: Pet Supplies

I am considering Amazonia for the next tank I set up.. but that is a while off.


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## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

sarahspins said:


> I just ordered a bag of shrimp sand from Amazon for $18.48 - I am only planning on using it in a 4g tank (which currently has black diamond - anything will be an improvement over that) so I didn't need very much.
> 
> Amazon.com: U.P. Aqua Shrimp Sand: Pet Supplies
> 
> I am considering Amazonia for the next tank I set up.. but that is a while off.


yeah even the fluval is a huge jump from sand or even eco complete and fluorite. i have tried all of those and even the weaker soils are much better.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

For the record: I would recommend Azoo Plant Grower Bed as the best if I had to recommend an non-ADA substrate that buffers.

I've had the best luck with it in various kinds of water with all kinds of plants.


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## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

somewhatshocked said:


> For the record: I would recommend Azoo Plant Grower Bed as the best if I had to recommend an non-ADA substrate that buffers.
> 
> I've had the best luck with it in various kinds of water with all kinds of plants.


i was wondering if you ever add anything under the aqua soil substrate's?


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

I have tried different substrates and is now running my first tank with plain fine grain sand. The tank have been running for only 14 days so it is early to talk about experiences, but the plants are growing fine and it seems to me that sand is a substrate that not have some of the issues that might appear with some other types of substrates. The sand is inert at the beginning so I am using Tropica liquid fertilizer once a week. 

Fine sand might be a option for you that is a cheap, easy going substrate that also grow plants.

Jnad


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

If interested to look at the growth i plain sand substrate, here is a couple of pictures showing 12-days of growth:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=163945&d=1372022620

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=170745&d=1373144791

Jnad


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## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

Jnad said:


> If interested to look at the growth i plain sand substrate, here is a couple of pictures showing 12-days of growth:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=163945&d=1372022620
> 
> ...


its not that sand can't grow plants. the soil helps with root feeders and lowering ph and kh. some plants just wont do well without the lower ph and kh. your tank has no plants that are harder to grow... so as long as your not trying to grow hard plants sand is just fine.


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## Jnad (Aug 17, 2012)

Yes i know, i have chosen easy to grow plants. 

The tread starter wrote that he had a low budget, and therefore i thought sand and easy to grow = cheap plants would be a good option for him.

Jnad


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## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

Jnad said:


> Yes i know, i have chosen easy to grow plants.
> 
> The tread starter wrote that he had a low budget, and therefore i thought sand and easy to grow = cheap plants would be a good option for him.
> 
> Jnad


yeah you are right, but he did say he wanted the aqua soil.

i have dimond blasting sand in a few tanks. the plants do just fine with it and its really cheap. i would deff choose sand over eco or fluorite.

you can run peat in your filter to lower ph and kh but i dont have experience doing this so can say how effective it is.


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## stefus_prime (Jul 3, 2013)

Hey guys, a lot of options to look into here. Does anyone know how much ADA I would need for a standard 55 gal? The UP soil isn't available anymore but I'm considering some of the more DIY oriented options here at this point. I was considering eco mainly because I have a good 2 bags of it in my 20 already.


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## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

stefus_prime said:


> Hey guys, a lot of options to look into here. Does anyone know how much ADA I would need for a standard 55 gal? The UP soil isn't available anymore but I'm considering some of the more DIY oriented options here at this point. I was considering eco mainly because I have a good 2 bags of it in my 20 already.


eco is fine if you already have it. i just wouldnt buy it again over cheap sands.

i thought i remember someone saying 3 bags for a 55g... maybe not..? 

im sure there is a calculator that will figure it out for you but i dont know where, sorry.


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

I have a 24x12 footprint, and I used 1 and 1/3 bags. 1 bag wasn't enough, so I'd say 3 bags would be enough for a 55 with some hill work. If you have a completely flat scape, you could get by with 2 bags. That's my guess.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

There are quite a few substrate calculators available if you search around.

Though, here's a rough formula. 48" x 13" x 2" (length, width, depth of substrate) = 1,248. Divide that by 231 = 5.4. That's how many gallons of substrate you'll need to achieve an even two inches of depth in a standard 55gal tank. Roughly 20 liters. Since Aquasoil comes in 9L bags, it'd be a good idea to get three bags. You'll have a bit extra in case you want to create hills or to save for other projects.


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## stefus_prime (Jul 3, 2013)

Another question, given that I have a good amount of eco-complete already on hand is there something I can mix with it to make it better for plants? If I go the eco route I may just put some peat moss into my filter as someone reccomended.


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## MiSo (Oct 26, 2005)

i suggest saving up for the aqua soil. if its what you want, then you'll be happier in the long run. i tried to go the cheap route and ended up spending more money trying out different substrates i wasn't happy with and eventually got the aqua soil anyways. 2.5 bags of aquasoil should be good for a 55 gallon.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Since you're new to the hobby, don't take the messier, cheaper route until you've given it a few weeks to think it over. 

Make sure you've taken the time to research everything. Note that using peat in a filter is not a reliable method even for hobbyists who have decades of experience.


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## stefus_prime (Jul 3, 2013)

somewhatshocked said:


> Since you're new to the hobby, don't take the messier, cheaper route until you've given it a few weeks to think it over.
> 
> Make sure you've taken the time to research everything. Note that using peat in a filter is not a reliable method even for hobbyists who have decades of experience.


I've actually been in the hobby for around 7-8 years, I've just fallen out of the loop in the past 2 years or so.

Edit: What is wrong with peat? I've heard it mentioned alot but I've never looked too much into it, all I know is that it discolors the water


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## stefus_prime (Jul 3, 2013)

MiSo said:


> i suggest saving up for the aqua soil. if its what you want, then you'll be happier in the long run. i tried to go the cheap route and ended up spending more money trying out different substrates i wasn't happy with and eventually got the aqua soil anyways. 2.5 bags of aquasoil should be good for a 55 gallon.


I'm debating it, but $48 a bag is pretty steep for a relatively broke college student haha


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

As I mentioned, peat is not a reliable method for altering water parameters. 

Can exhaust quickly, isn't consistent, et al.

Much better methods for maintaining water parameters on the market today.



stefus_prime said:


> I've actually been in the hobby for around 7-8 years, I've just fallen out of the loop in the past 2 years or so.
> 
> Edit: What is wrong with peat? I've heard it mentioned alot but I've never looked too much into it, all I know is that it discolors the water


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## borgie28 (Jul 1, 2013)

quick question im in the same boat as you just got a brand new 55 and I have two bags of ada so 18L total, I have a 29 gallon that im tearing apart and has my eco complete in it that has worked quite well and is only like 3 months old tops. Would it be bad if I was to put the eco-complete on the bottom and top it off with all the ada? would save me from having to buy another bag or 2 want like 3-3.5 inches deep.. thanks!


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## crice8 (Aug 2, 2012)

borgie28 said:


> quick question im in the same boat as you just got a brand new 55 and I have two bags of ada so 18L total, I have a 29 gallon that im tearing apart and has my eco complete in it that has worked quite well and is only like 3 months old tops. Would it be bad if I was to put the eco-complete on the bottom and top it off with all the ada? would save me from having to buy another bag or 2 want like 3-3.5 inches deep.. thanks!


I thought about doing this as well, but from what I read, it is a bad idea.


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## stefus_prime (Jul 3, 2013)

somewhatshocked said:


> As I mentioned, peat is not a reliable method for altering water parameters.
> 
> Can exhaust quickly, isn't consistent, et al.
> 
> Much better methods for maintaining water parameters on the market today.


Is there anything in specific you would reccomend?


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## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

stefus_prime said:


> Is there anything in specific you would reccomend?


other than peat or aqua soil a RO unit would do the trick... 

i put a very little fluorite under some of my fluval soil due to not having enough. i cant really imagine anything bad coming from that. i do have a few pieces of fluorite that came up when i wasn't careful.


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## stefus_prime (Jul 3, 2013)

bankruptjojo said:


> other than peat or aqua soil a RO unit would do the trick...
> 
> i put a very little fluorite under some of my fluval soil due to not having enough. i cant really imagine anything bad coming from that. i do have a few pieces of fluorite that came up when i wasn't careful.


Don't I have to add something to RO water to make it good for planted tank use? I may just get more eco since I have around 30-40 lbs of it already and invest in an RODI unit, I figure we need one for our SW tank anyways so may as well haha


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## bankruptjojo (Feb 9, 2013)

i've actually never used RO water... from what i've heard you do have to add some stuff back if its straight RO water. i think if you mix RO with tap water you might not have to add anything then but i'm not positive. and some can't do this because there tap ph, kh or gh is to high. i'm sure there is tons of info out there, or start a new thread for more help. i'll be looking into it myself, i think i'm switching to RO soon.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Yes, you'll need to use a product for remineralization. There are several on the market. As long as you aren't keeping sensitive invertebrates like shrimp, you could use something like Kent R/O Right or Seachem Equilibrium. 



stefus_prime said:


> Don't I have to add something to RO water to make it good for planted tank use? I may just get more eco since I have around 30-40 lbs of it already and invest in an RODI unit, I figure we need one for our SW tank anyways so may as well haha


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