# I want to quit.. algae 10, me 0



## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

I've been trying so hard for over a year to get this tank back up where it was. I'm not sure how it started but my tank was doing really well for over a year then suddenly started getting this reddish brown algae on the back and rocks and leaves. Then beard algae, then green algae. I have saltwater tanks so I switched to RO/DI water for top off since our tap water has a lot of phosphate. Then went to water changes with RO/DI. Started addding carbon. Added 2 SAEs and they started helping with the beard algae... and I pulled out a bunch of plants. Two weeks ago I added PhosGuard and now you can see some of the reddish brown algae on the background starting to fade. I also changed my lighting. I had two 65W PC at 10K. I upgraded my SW tanks to MH and moved four 24W T5HO to the tank. The bulbs were 3 @ 10k, 1 @ 75/25 (UVI). This week I changed lighting again and swapped out one of the 10k for an AquaFlora and I'm only running 2x24W. The lighting schedule is cut back, too. I do weekly water changes of 5-8 gallons. The tank is 29 gallons. Fish: 3 peppered corys, and two babies in a breeder; 3 kuhli loaches, 6 white clouds, 2 SAEs, 3 amano shrimp, 3 ring loaches (don't remember specific name). Plants at this point some java fern, rotalia indica, a couple Amazon sword. I use Red Sea Co2 Bio system and change it out every 3 weeks. All the changes were implemented over the course of a year giving each change at least a month or two to start working. The substrate is Eco-Complete. I run two HOB filters. I'm one step away from pulling all the plants, cutting all the lights letting everything die (well not the fish and shrimp) and start all over. Is there anything I can do?


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## londonloco (Aug 25, 2005)

EI dosing, excel and weekly 50% water changes....works for me.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

londonloco said:


> EI dosing, excel and weekly 50% water changes....works for me.


I stopped using excel, but I'll try the 50% water change from the 20% I'm doing now.


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## sandwichtx (Sep 9, 2009)

Seachem excel worked great at eliminating all of the algae in my tank.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

sandwichtx said:


> Seachem excel worked great at eliminating all of the algae in my tank.


I used to use Excel.. and it wasn't doing anything, one capful a day. So I upped the dose from one capful to two capfuls. That very first night of the double dose I lost a powder blue gourami, the next day my other gourami looked bad, died that night. Within 3 days time I lost 50% of the fish in the tank. I saw a slight change in them during the day of the first dose, but I didn't think it would kill them. I had read that overdosing could be risky, but again I didn't think one capful would do it. It was at that time my whole tank went downhill. I had done absolutely nothing different except add the extra Excel, so that's my reason for suspecting it. I never did any more dosing after the first fish died. And when fish kept dying I did a 50% water change and did not lose any more fish. But the whole tank balance was upset and I haven't been able to get it back on track.


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## Sierra255 (Sep 13, 2007)

Excel is safe, as long as you use it in the recommended dose amounts. Seachem recommends an initial dose (or after a major water change) of 1 cap for every 10 gallons. Every day thereafter, it recommends one cap for every 50 gallons. Sounds like you may have overdosed. I've been using this ratio and have been fine.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

I think you probably did more than a double does. How much did you dose and how big is your tank?


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## Delslo (Feb 5, 2010)

your best bet in my opinion is co2 a simply yeast system should do the trick. The plants will grow faster taking up more nutrience, thus limiting the amount of nutrience for the algae. I would also cut back the lighting to 8-9 hours a day until you get the algae under control. Just my 2 cents


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Debdp,

Even with your light cutbacks, that's still a lot of light. The plants will be going through nutrients and CO2 quickly.

I didn't see anything about you adding nutrients at all. The fish are producing some nitrate and phosphate, but you're removing the phosphate, and you're depriving the plants of other nutrients by using RO/DI water. And while the Red Sea CO2 is helpful, it may not be enough.

From your description, the plants are starving. But algae thrives with strong light and limited nutrients!

You must add nutrients to the water. I recommend EI dosing, but a good commercial aquatic plant fertilizer will work too.

Then see if you can determine your actual CO2 level, either with a pH/KH test, or a drop checker. If it's insufficient, consider either adding more, or further reducing lighting to reduce the plants' demand for it.

Excel overdose should have been your last resort, to be used only when you're sure the plants have enough nutrients and CO2 for the light they are given. Safely administering an Excel overdose is a topic unto itself, I won't go into it now. Correct the other issues first!


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

Thanks for everyone's replies and excellent points. Yesterday I decided to do a major cleaning. Removed all decorations. Set up a 1 gallon aquarium I had sitting around with Aquarium plant soil (that clay type stuff sold at Home Depot). Put about 3 inches in the bottom. Added 1 tab of Seachem flourish supplement, added an airstone for movement. It sits next to my 5 gallon refugium for one of my SW tanks which has a 100W CFL bulb but it's 12" away from the light and getting indirect light not direct light. I'm using FluorinMulti and FluorinAxis as plant supplements. So for this size tank just a drop or two will suffice. The plant leaves were all dipped in a mild bleach solution for about 10-15 seconds and then immediately rinsed in water treated with Prime and the leaves wiped clean of algae. Most of the algae came off very easily, some is still on but did not want to risk killing the whole plant. They were then removed to another Prime treated container. All the rocks & driftwood was treated the same but soaked longer in the Prime treated water bucket. They will remain out of the tank for a while. I left in a few plants that seemed to be doing better than others and one rock with Java fern solidly attached. The whole rock and plant was dipped briefly and scrubbed in the chlorinated water. Rinsed and allowed to soak in Prime treated water. Moved to a clean container of Prime treated water and after 2 hours the water was tested for Chlorine before placing back into the tank. The lights have been unplugged. The tank background is pond foam and it's covered in this algae except underneath there it was shaded from the lights. The addition of PhosGuard had it also starting to fade. 

Please note that even running PhosGuard and carbon, I was getting readings of phosphate and nitrates... enough for the plants but not the 5.0+ I was getting even using RO/DI water. The readings with RO/DI and PhosGuard came down to about 1.0. Nitrates were around 5.0 and only brought down slightly with water changes. 

Here is what the tank looked like in Oct. 2008 when I was just adding plants. The large plant on the right of course is plastic... but the rest are real and I still have them. I'll post a picture later of how it is now.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

Here's a picture from 2/11 of the tank and the reddish/brown algae on everything, and the 1 gallon container with all the plants. A lot of the algae is still dying off on them.


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

You do not want to remove the nitrates and phosphates. They are necessary for plant growth. As Darkcobra has already pointed out you need to provide proper CO2 and nutrients to your plants since you are running high light. The advice in his post is good.

The FluorinMulti and FluorinAxis plant supplements you are using are trace elements and a carbon (Exce type) substitute, you need to also add macro nutrients—nitrates and phosphates. I doubt that you have adequate potassium either. If you continue to use RO/DI water you need to add back calcium and magnesium. If you use Seachem Equilibrium or Barr's GH booster that would take care of the calcium and magnesium, the GH booster also contains potassium.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

Thanks Captain_Bu... I do use Equalibrium and also have Seachem's Alkalinity & Acid Buffer... all three to help balance out the use of the RO/DI. I did not totally deplete the phosphates and nitrates just lowered them. I know that they are required, but wasn't sure what the correct level should be for plants. But I really thought that 5.0 to 10.0 ppm in nitrates and 5.0 to 10.0 for phosphate was way too high. For future reference, how much phosphate and nitrate should be in the tank to make sure plants have enough? I searched through several forums and was unable to find any numbers per se, just that you should have both. And again, thank you.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Double check the ingredients in the alkaline and acid buffers. That may be where some of the phosphates are coming from. 
Seachem Equilibrium should be enough by itself to stabilize the RO/DI water. I would not also add the pH altering solutions. I use baking soda to bring the KH up in some tanks. 1 teaspoon of baking soda per 30 gallons will raise the KH by 2 degrees. (Actually a 29 gallon tank, so minus substrate and rocks, but add the volume of the filter)

NO3 between 5-20 ppm works for me, but it must not drop below 5 ppm, or the algae that is always present in my tanks gets going. Some guides suggest 30 ppm is OK, but my fish are not so active when the NO3 is higher than 20 ppm. 
PO4 of about 1-2 ppm is generally recommended.


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## diveshooter (Jan 20, 2010)

Am not familiar with the pond foam that you're using as a background, but if it's porous it could be a breeding ground for bacteria and a detrius sponge. Looks like a cyanobacteria outbreak to me, which is not algae. I fought a prolonged battle with the stuff in a saltwater tank and had to resort to an antibiotic treatment to wipe it out. Don't know if theres a freshwater equivalent. Good luck, and don't give up!


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

Diana, thank you. Both the Seachem buffers are non-phosphate based as stated on the label, but I have not had to use either of them. I also used baking soda to maintain the pH. At present the large water change I did yesterday I went back to tap water treated with Prime. It will be easier to maintain pH for the fish since very little else is in the tank now.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

diveshooter said:


> Am not familiar with the pond foam that you're using as a background, but if it's porous it could be a breeding ground for bacteria and a detrius sponge. Looks like a cyanobacteria outbreak to me, which is not algae. I fought a prolonged battle with the stuff in a saltwater tank and had to resort to an antibiotic treatment to wipe it out. Don't know if theres a freshwater equivalent. Good luck, and don't give up!


The pond foam is not porous on the surface. Things can build on it but not in it, unless of course you cut into it. But the surface dries very hard. I could take a toothbrush and scrub it clean easily. I'm unsure about whether this is cyano or algae... I know what cyano is in my saltwater tanks and have dealt with it using either more flow or Red Slime Remover. But this stuff is a harder film unlike the cyano in our SW tanks. I can scrub it off but it takes pressure, which doesn't work well for cleaning leaves. Also it's not on the substrate at all... only on the rocks, background, leaves or driftwood. Anyway, with no lights it should start fading off and dying over the next couple days. If the sun comes out tomorrow the tank will get about 30 to 45 minutes of direct sunlight. Normally I close the shades but with lights off I think the tank will be okay. Thanks.


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## Canuck (Apr 30, 2009)

debdp said:


> But this stuff is a harder film unlike the cyano in our SW tanks. I can scrub it off but it takes pressure, which doesn't work well for cleaning leaves. Also it's not on the substrate at all... only on the rocks, background, leaves or driftwood.


Kinda sounds like green spot algae which generally indicates low phosphates. Have you tested your test kits? Its not at all uncommon for them to be completely wrong.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

Canuck said:


> Kinda sounds like green spot algae which generally indicates low phosphates. Have you tested your test kits? Its not at all uncommon for them to be completely wrong.


Thanks Canuk. I did a search on green spot algae and I don't think it is that. It's a dark brownish red algae. There are pictures posted on what it looks like. The test kits are all API and I just replaced those that were close to their expiration date so now all the test kits are less than 6 months old.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

Here's a closer look at one of the swords.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Hey Debbie,

Nitrate should be about 10-20ppm, and phosphate about 1-2ppm. A bit higher is ok, lower is not given your lighting.

I'm still wondering about your actual CO2 level, as well as potassium. Deficiencies will slow your plant growth and encourage algae. 20ppm potassium and 30ppm CO2 is a good starting point.

It appears your tank is lightly planted with slow growers. If you don't mind a different look, adding more fast growing plants will probably help you. They'll get rid of the complex organic wastes produced by fish that can bring on algae. They'll also naturally reduce your phosphate levels, but proper supplementation of other nutrients will be even more important.

The algae appears to be a red form of BBA. Low CO2 and high light is suspect when it runs rampant.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

DarkCobra said:


> Hey Debbie,
> 
> Nitrate should be about 10-20ppm, and phosphate about 1-2ppm. A bit higher is ok, lower is not given your lighting.
> 
> ...


Thank you. The Rotala was actually pretty thick and a very fast grower, but once I started getting the beard algae I trimmed and pulled a bunch of it out trying to remove the beard algae. It actually grew so fast I started tossing it in my pond which has no fish and I do nothing too at all.. and it grew really fast there, too. The other plants though have been very slow growers. Thinking back now I should've let the Rotala float on top like it was... it would've blocked light and kept the algae under control. I left 3 of them in the tank even with lights out... they didn't appear to have any beard algae on them. The red/brown algae has completely died off from the pump that's attached to the Red Sea CO2 container and is fading from the back in spots. Hard to see that as it's still dark. Sun is out, no clouds so later this afternoon when it comes around I'll post a picture. I'm probably going to try going low tech once everything is under control and cleaned up.


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

DarkCobra said:


> Nitrate should be about 10-20ppm, and phosphate about 1-2ppm. A bit higher is ok, lower is not given your lighting.
> 
> I'm still wondering about your actual CO2 level, as well as potassium. Deficiencies will slow your plant growth and encourage algae. 20ppm potassium and 30ppm CO2 is a good starting point.
> 
> The algae appears to be a red form of BBA. Low CO2 and high light is suspect when it runs rampant.


When I first read your post I missed that you were using the Red Sea CO2 system... it is doubtful that you are able to keep stable CO2 levels of 30 ppm at your lighting level using a single yeast based system like that... for DIY CO2 it helps to run at least two 2 liter bottles and recharge one of them per week.

Potassium is also important and frequently levels are too low, if you were dosing dry KNO3 and KH2PO4 you would be adding some potassium along with the nitrate and phosphate but maybe not enough without adding K2SO4. Since you don't appear to be dosing any macro ferts it is almost certain that your potassium levels are too low. DarkCobra's suggested ranges for nitrates and phosphates would be good ones to shoot for.

The API test kits are OK at best, I use a few of them myself but it is hard to rely on the readings, especially if you have not tested them against a known reference solution to gauge accuracy.

Definitely good that you are going to ditch the alkaline and acid buffers, I made the mistake of using these in the past and would never recommend using them...

Sounds like you are slowly making progress though, unfortunately it is much easier to get algae than get rid of it.... if you follow some of the suggestions here and stay on top of things the tank will come around and you will have learned something in the process. Good luck!


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

captain_bu said:


> When I first read your post I missed that you were using the Red Sea CO2 system... it is doubtful that you are able to keep stable CO2 levels of 30 ppm at your lighting level using a single yeast based system like that... for DIY CO2 it helps to run at least two 2 liter bottles and recharge one of them per week.


I run four 2 liter bottles on a 46g and it seems to be working well. I have pearling (more now that I've increased my fertz) and my drop checker is in the green (sometimes even lime green). I swap out one bottle a week, and I'm fortunate in that I get rather consistent production from each bottle, until it rather quickly drops to something useless sometime during the 4th week.

If your DIY CO2 bottle produces too much, it it will burn out too fast, and you will have less consistent results. If it produces too little, you end up needing to keep the bottle in production for longer, and need more bottles as a result. I think it's hard to get consistent results with a fast burning bottle being swapped out every week, or even with two bottles being swapped out on alternate weeks.

I'll also add that it took a year to get my DIY CO2 dialed in. Yeast type and water source seem to have a big effect, and also how much (if any) baking soda you add. It took quite a while to get everything worked out. I've mentioned what I did on other threads, but I doubt it will work similarly for others unless you have well water that is similar to mine.

BTW, I also use a REX style reactor so I get 100% diffusion. You can't really afford to let any of your DIY CO2 bubble out of the tank.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

Just a update pic. The java fern is attached this rock and I really like the piece. So I dipped the whole rock and plant in the mild bleach solution for 15-20 seconds (counting out loud type of thing)... then into a prime treated bucket where I used a plastic brush to scrub the rock and hand wiped the plant leaves. I was unsure of how the bleach would affect the roots. Here's a side by side pic with dates. The tank is lights out now 6 days, it only gets room light and some sunlight in a couple spots on the substrate late in the day. The leaves look much better, and almost all the algae is gone and has not come back. In the past within 3-4 days of scrubbing rocks clean they'd be covered in the algae. The algae is still dying off the back foam and surprisingly the rotala that I did leave in there aren't looking bad, though I may have to trim pretty heavy since I still see some beard algae on them.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

Update... so the tank went no lights for five weeks. I left only the java fern on a rock and a couple of well rooted rotala indica with ambient room light only. I ended up cutting the rotala down to just above the substrate where there was tiny new growth showing because the beard algae was still clinging to leaf ends even though it was dying. The algae on the back wall is 99% gone just a few spots here and there. It never came back on the java fern or the rock the fern was on which both were bleached dipped for several seconds. So I'm in the process of putting in new plants and getting my lighting squared away. I'll be doing 3 -4 times the amount of plants I did, and less light. 

I did not want to do a total blackout of the tank and kill all the algae at once and keep my fish in the dark. Besides, I seriously doubt that a 3-4 day blackout would have done any good, considering it took 5 weeks with only room light to kill off what was there. All the decorations were removed, bleached and then soaked in water treated with Prime. The tank has been reaquascped and I have more new plants ordered & coming in this week as well as new 67k bulbs. I'll post a pic when it's all done.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

Just to update. I did end up stripping the tank, moving and dipping the plants and QT them for 3 months. During that time I had two very low light LED fixtures over the tank and black felt over the back wall blocking out all light. Removed all rocks, wood, except for one and tossed in PVC for the fish. This weekend was 3 months of semi black out and all signs of algae and BBA are gone. That brownish red algae also gone. The plants did well split between two 10 gallon tanks with yeast CO2. But I picked up a used 5 gal CO2 tank and new Milwaukee reg and got that set up in the tank now. Everything stayed BBA free and algae free. I've got the solenoid on a timer with the lights. 

One thing I did find that I started getting algae in the 10 gallon tanks when dosing fertilizer. So I quit dosing and just did straight water changes, the plants did well and the algae didn't come back at all.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

HOB filters out-gas a lot of CO2. My advice would be to try the EI method, do not try to target pH, kH or gH, just use your tap water and change at least 50% a week. Add nitrate, potassium and phosphate in unlimiting amounts along with trace elements. Don't use any phosguard type products or pH targeting chemicals. Reduce lighting and concentrate on CO2. It's the most important "_fertilizer_" that your plants need. As for Excel I recall reading a post somewhere that the directions for dosage sometimes don't jive with the size cap on some containers leading to dosing the wrong amounts. Best to measure milliliters with something other than the cap just to be safe.


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## wakewalking (Jan 18, 2010)

pressurized co2 is win.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

wakewalking said:


> pressurized co2 is win.


 
Yeah, I fought it but it is a win.


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## debdp (Apr 9, 2008)

Update: Well I still had that beard algae up until yesterday. Saturday I picked up a used Pinpoint pH controller from a saltwater club member to use on this planted tank (I also have 4 SW tanks). I used a checker to figure out what the best pH setting should be to operate the CO2 and Airstone and came out to about 6.8. Sunday I set up the monitor tweaking it throughout the day, did a 50% water change. Soaked only the filter items in 50/50 peroxide and water mixture, then in vinegar and then rinsed clean. Monday morning woke up and the tank looked a bit whitish. Checked the pH and it was at 6.53, but the air stone light was on. When the lights came on I could see the air stone was clogged so no air was coming out, and all the BBA had died and turned white. I stirred up one of the plants and the stuff just fell off the leaves and literally caused a snow storm in the tank. I added a Whisper in-tank filter with floss to help remove the dead algae, and a small bag of carbon just in case. Eventually I had to add Seachem buffer to bring the pH up even after replacing the air stone because the pH had dropped to 6.37. 

So I'm not sure if it was the regulated CO2 and steady pH setting that toasted it or the drop overnight in pH to 6.5 but whatever it was the plague is gone. Neither the fish or shrimp suffered any ill effects. I've researched the fish and they can all tolerate pH values as low as 6.5 so I may tweak the pH down to keep within the green of the checker and hopefully low enough to keep that stuff from coming back. After a few years of this mess I'm glad to see it go.


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