# Green Neon tetra rolling?!



## Public Alias (Mar 25, 2012)

Bumpitybump. 

Approx 24 hours later the phenomenon is still occurring. It appears to still just be one. With a school of 8 though it is hard to tell - for all I know I could be seeing a different one roll today than I did last night. I think it is the some one though. 

If I can get a vid I will. This is very hard to predict though

*EDIT:*

I've been sitting here watching my tank for about half an hour trying to see if any of my neons would roll like they did last night and the night before. Nothing.

Although yesterday when I came home from school to do that water change I sat down and watched the tank for about a half hour - I didn't see any rolling. Then I came home from work that night and saw that one tetra roll again.

I am not sure why no one is saying anything. Did I give too much detail? Not enough detail? Does my tone when writing come off as rude or somehow offensive? Did I not ask a specific enough question? Do I just type too much? Please, if anyone has any input I would really appreciate it.

I have been reading about neon tetra disease and I am not sure if the symptoms fit. Wouldn't the rolling that I have noticed become more frequent by now? Would it be more consistent when it does happen? For example, last night I saw a neon roll once or twice, then I watched it for at least 30 min and it didnt roll again. 

*Here are some specific questions regarding NTD that I cant seem to find answers to online:*

If the rolling I have seen is indicative of NTD, how long will it take to get worse? I.E. How long until I see consistently unusual behavior/appearance instead of just seeing a few barrel-rolls in one day?
(the info I read about NTD used terms like "quickly" and "very fast." Does very fast = 2-3 days or 2-3 weeks? Months?)

How long until I see a dead fish?

If the barrel-rolling tetra has NTD or some other contagious disease, how long until I notice symptoms in the rest of the school?


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## Public Alias (Mar 25, 2012)

Bump bump. 
If these bumps are against etiquette please tell me. I'm just desperate for any input that anyone might have to offer on this issue. Any answers or thoughts would be so greatly appreciated.

It has been approx 48 hours since the first barrel rolling was observed. I am observing the aquarium and still observing the same thing. It seems to just be one fish, saw it barrel-roll once tonight, hasn't done it again in 20 minutes of observing. They all seem to be swimming normally.

_Here are some more details_
I looked up vids of fish with swim bladder diseases. What I am observing does not look like the vids on youtube. The tetra appears perfectly oriented, balanced and alert. Then, without provocation it's body curves to the right - it almost looks like it is in pain - completes a 360 degree rotation around the anterior-posterior axis, recovers, and then it is back to normal. Swimming, schooling, and apparently well coordinated swimming ensues.

Not knowing what is happening, and being reluctant to just shotgun out medication (especially with shrimp in the tank) I have reduced the photo-period and increased tank temperature from 74 to 79. I have read that an increase in temp can help the immune system.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I will pop in with some thoughts but you are dealing with one of the harder things about the hobby. Getting the correct disease so that the correct med can be used is tough. I no longer go that route unless it is a very special fish. Over the years, I have thrown so many meds in tanks that it is just not worth it any more. My good fish stay healthy and the rest have to recover on their own. Medicine costs more than many fish are worth so I go for tough love! The flexing as if in pain may be a reaction to a parasite. This can also be a cause of a swim bladder problem. The swim bladder is just a sac full of air which helps the fish stay upright. Parasites can penetrate this leaving it to fill with water and make swimming tough. But then there are also many other things which might fit as well. 
For treatment, I would go with holding things steady and keeping the water fresh and clean. Other radical changes may in fact create problems for the entire tank if not well done. Sorry. Just a tough situation.


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## Sotty (Aug 31, 2012)

I unfortunately agree with above. Meds are too pricey in most cases particularily if you don't have a strong suspicion of causative agent and end up trying several different ones. I also wouldn't hit my whole tank with them unless multiples were showing symptoms.

Having a spare 2.5 or 5 g that you use for qt / hospital tank does make treating cheaper and obviously safer for the rest of your fish/shrimp.

Sorry man. It really sucks.


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## Sotty (Aug 31, 2012)

Oh and by all means even if you don't plan to treat remove the afflicted fish to a quarantine tank if at all possible. Just in case.


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## Public Alias (Mar 25, 2012)

Thank you for the feedback PlantedRich and Sotty. I think that sounds very logical about not spending too many resources on one fish, especially without a clear cause. Times like this make remind me of how good it would be to have a quarantine tank. Of course these neons all look so similar, and they are so fast I dont know how I would ever seperate this one.

I agree that a parasite would be more likely, especially with how rarely this happens, and how the fish looks like it is contracting its muscles with pain when it rolls. At this point I feel like the symptoms would have progressed and spread to other fish if it were NTD.

Steady conditions and clean water sound good.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

If you want to treat with something here are a few ideas:
1) Move the fish to a hospital tank as above. This will isolate the treatment and reduce the price. 

2) First possibility: Some sort of water mineral or salt level problem. Maybe the mineral level in the old tank was a bit higher. The other fish have adapted OK, but one is having problems. 
Treatment: Put the fish in a separate container and add some salt. Try about 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons, and you could double that. More is probably too much for a Tetra. Or try some Epsom salt, 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons then test the GH. Raise the GH by 2-3 degrees. 

3) Next possibility: Swim Bladder issues. Not much can be done, but you could try the separate tank, and more Epsom salt. If the swim bladder issue is related to constipation (does not sound likely) then the Epsom salt can help relieve the blockage. This sort of problem is a lot more prevalent with fancy Golds, not regular shaped fish. 

4) Does not sound like NTD. That usually presents with discoloration, usually white, and can be confused with columnaris. 

5) Set up the hospital tank with water from the main tank, and also another container that holds about a quart or a liter. Make up a stronger solution of salt and dip the fish while holding it in a net. Remove the fish when it reacts. This is great for external parasites. The strength of the mix and the duration of the dip are related: As strong as ocean water, perhaps as little as 30 seconds. Milder = longer dip, but do not leave the fish untended. When it rolls over immediately place him in the hospital tank. 

6) Over the counter meds: Since no one knows what the fish has it is pretty difficult to counsel buying something that might turn out to be the wrong medicine. 
If it is bacterial in origin, for example an infection that affects the swim bladder, you might cure it with antibiotics, but the swim bladder remains damaged, and the fish cannot repair itself if the damage is too far gone. 

7) Euthanasia. Get some clove oil and kill the fish before whatever it has spreads.


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## concepts88 (Oct 4, 2012)

I do not know what may be causing this, I believe it may be something to do with the swim bladder, but I am not sure.

What I can tell you is that I was at petsma.. and I saw some tetras doing this, and it wasn't because of current, he was just swimming and doing barrel rolls. It would roll, and during the roll would float up and down the tank, and continue to roll. It was very strange indeed.

I vaguely remember something like this in my reef tank days, but I believe that was caused by fishes being raises to the surface too quickly or being mined with drugs.

Not sure about freshwater fish. My daughter asked me why the fish were doing that, and I just replied "its sick honey", then I looked at the other fish in the tank, felt bad and walked away.

I would quarantine if possible.


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## Public Alias (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks for the thoughts and advice. Diana you bring up an interesting point about the salt and mineral levels. If anything I think my tank is a little saltier than the tank these neons came from, so that transition must have been stressful. Of course swim bladder and parasite issues also sound probable.

I'm watching the tank right now and I cant even figure out who the offender was. No barrel-rolling. It happened very infrequently when I saw it the last two nights, so I'm going to keep monitoring and if I can figure out who the offender was I'll either quarantine and try those salt dips or simply euthanize. One of them looks a bit pale, but it has always been pale and I'm not even sure if that one is my roller.

Diana, I breathed a sigh of relief when you said shouldn't be NTD. Assuming the worst though, and assuming it is that, or a similarly contagious and damaging disease, how long to you think I would have before I could tell without a doubt that things are getting worse?

Concepts88 that does sound very strange. I suppose I should at least be happy I am not seeing that much rolling. This probably does somehow tie into the swimbladder though.

And that is very interesting about the saltwater fish. I never thought of fish being susceptible to decompression sickness too.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> my tank is a little saltier than the tank these neons came from


Fish generally handle slightly harder water, more minerals, more salt... easier than moving into softer water. 
When the total dissolved solids gets less they have a harder time adapting. 

NTD is a slower moving disease, but can kill in a week or so. Usually takes longer. Have a look at some pictures and see the white areas that show up on a Neon Tetra against the red areas. Other Tetras and even non-Tetras can get this disease, and it will similarly show up as paler to white areas. 

Other diseases are mostly rather fast moving, at least to the point of showing some symptoms. If nothing else fish with 'something' will hide, clamp their fins, have reduced appetite, less playing or pushing around the other fish, may hover in one place for example near the surface or the bottom of the tank. The color may be paler than normal. These sort of 'off' behaviors can show up pretty early in the course of a disease or parasite problem. All of these are general sort of signs that something is wrong, but not tell us what it is. 
The body may be swollen in places or all over. The fish may have spots or something that can look like injuries. The fish may try to scratch themselves, often by flicking sideways along the bottom or against a rock or driftwood. You might be able to see external parasites. Any of these are symptoms that can narrow the possible diagnosis. 
These symptoms may not show up right away, and perhaps not until it is too late to treat the fish with the worst symptoms. But by diagnosing the problem treatment can be aimed at the fish that are less advanced or may not be showing symptoms yet. 

There is one other disease that is very slow moving, and rarely shows definitive symptoms. Sometimes they will show a curved spine (in any direction) or may look thin. Mycobacteriosis can kill fish slowly, one now... one next week... another in a month or so... 
It can weaken the fish so they are susceptible to something else that may not be deadly, but because they are already fighting the MB the 'something else' is too much, and they die. The 'something else' may be a disease or parasite, or the stress of relocating, or too great a change in water parameters. 
The only way to get a proper diagnosis of MB is to stain the internal organs that may be affected with a stain that will tell you (or the vet) that is really is MB.


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## Public Alias (Mar 25, 2012)

Diana I am truly impressed with your knowledge on fish ailments.

I guess NTD is pretty much off the table. These fish lived healthily for months in my Girlfriend's tank, then moved to my tank, where the existing tetras have never looked sick. I looked at pics of NTD. I haven't seen any of those characteristically white necrotic patches. I think the one that barrel rolled had a spot on his blue stripe which was actually darker blue. Maybe that would be further indication of a parasitic infection.

So far no more rolling today, but I haven't watched my tank for very long today. I'll have to spend some time tonight observing. I did notice some flashing against plants yesterday. No visible abnormalities around the moth or gills though. I do have some melafix on hand, and I have read that it can have some effect on parasites. 

Wow. Mycobacteriosis sounds very scary. I'm guessing that the sores I saw in pictures must be from those opportunistic secondary infections. If any of my fish die I think it might be worth getting the stain test. Any idea how much a vet would charge for that?


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## Public Alias (Mar 25, 2012)

Most frustratng experience EVER!

I thought the barrel-rolling had stopped but I was wrong. Today I noticed one barrel roll. I am pretty sure it is the same and only one I have seen rolling. I also noticed that the others seemed to be ramming it. So I decided to remove it from the tank and euthanize. What an ordeal that was!

I had to use uncertain details like "I think this one's head is a little more angular" and "I think the colors look a little more splotchy on this one" and "He opens and closes his mouth rapidly, as if he was panting."

Of course after chasing them around the tank for over an HOUR with a net and kicking up all the substrated they all looked like their colors were more splotchy. They all looked like they were panting from the traumatic ordeal.

Eventually I even pulled out my driftwood. It didn't help either that the poor bind cave tetras would swim right in front of my net just when I think I am about to catch the right neon. Several times I asked myself "Is the stress that I am causing by trying to catch this guy more harmful than just leaving him in the tank?"

Eventually I caught him. Well I think it is him. The school of 8 is now a school of 7. After euthanizing, I remember looking at the tiny, sparkling, motionless body and wondering "Is this even the one?" Very sad experience. It might just be a tiny neon but I still get emotional about them.


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