# 10 gallons of Crs/Cbs (Now rimless,new pictures added 3/8/11)



## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

(01/19/11)

















Equipment:
10 gallon tank with a standard 20 gallon light
submersible glass heater(changed to Stealth, temp more consistent now)
sponge filter(later changed to a whisper HOB, now using rapids mini canister)
eco-complete

Temp 72-73 degrees
They are fed once every few days, Shirakura, Spirulina discs or zucchini. Almond, oak, maple and birch leaves are added as well.
Weekly 20% water changes, straight from the tap. (Now using 3:1 distilled water until i get a RO/DI system, to tap water)
No co2 or ferts.

Livestock:
35 crs/cbs
snails, snails and more snails

Plants:
Java moss
Rotala rotundifolia(indica)
Hygrophilia Polysperma
Fissidens fontanus


(12/01/09)Holy mess 'o' wires....

























(12/11/09)Added 10 A-S grade crs

























(1/25/10) Added 25 more mixed grades of Crs and Cbs. I think 4 Cbs's were counted











































These pictures are a few months old. Since these were taken, several shrimp are now berried, I'd say at least half. Including both of the SS hinos that are in the tank. 
At least two batches of babies hatched, but I dont think any of them made it past their first week of life. Shirakura mineral Baby shrimp food is now being added. Hopefully that will give them a better chance than the first two batches =[. A small chunk of mineral rock was also added.

More up to date pictures soon!


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## boon (Mar 29, 2006)

what kind of leaf are those? Nice shrimp tank. Thats some crazy moss.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

boon said:


> what kind of leaf are those? Nice shrimp tank. Thats some crazy moss.


Thank you Boon!

I added what type of leaves that are used at the top.

As for the moss situation, I really hope I have some pictures to show you how thick it got. I had to remove the largest stick with java moss on it because there was too much Java in there. The only drift wood in the tank now are the two single twigs, one with flame, the other with java. I hope to find and post some more photos later. =]


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## boon (Mar 29, 2006)

Whoops! must've not been paying attention. I had flame moss and java moss on a twig before, it was a mess. I didn't think that the java moss would spread like it did and in the end I ended up with a lot of mix matched moss.:icon_sad:


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

You did not miss it boon, I edited the post as you were reading it =]


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## VincentK (Dec 16, 2009)

Are your oak leaves coloring your water at all?


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## boon (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm thinking about adding leaf litter to my tank. I been searching google the last few days for answer but not a lot of people have any info on it. How do you prepare the leaf? I've collected a lot green oak leaves and I'm now trying to dried them out so I can use them.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

All i do is give them a rinse, and then let them float in the tank until they become less buoyant, then i shove them where i want em to lie. No issues with the leaves affecting the water color so far.
I'd have to say they seem to prefer maple and birch over the almond and oak, maybe because they are softer leaves. I have not added more than one oak leaf at a time, and I do not add them anymore, just cause they are the last leaf to be picked at by the shrimp.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

(2/15/10) A molted shrimp skin is dangling by one of its antenna spinning nice and slowly, I was pretty amused by it. Also had some brown stringy algae occuring, I think it was due to lack of water flow. So I swapped out the sponge filter for a whisper HOB. Problem solved.

















I have no pictures of this tank in between 2/15 and now. I think i was too focused on my 45 in that time period....
I DO remember that at the end of February, my power went out for 2 and a half days. I was Very concerned for these little critters. Luckily, I thought ahead and was prepared for such the occasion with a battery powered air pump from a fellow member in the S&S. It may have been loud and hard to fall asleep to, being the only thing in my house making noise, but I slapped the sponge filter back in the tank and it worked great. To heat the water in this tank during the outage I boiled some water and poured it into a zip lock bag, zipped it up, and just let it float in the tank. Each time raising the temp in the tank by half a degree i think it was. Every one made it just fine. =]

Here is what it looks like today. Gave the front wall a quick scrape and snapped a few photos just now. It seems that EVERY picture i have of this tank, the Rotala has been trimmed a few days prior......Kind of odd. But every time i look at the tank, they are all touching the surface.....
The flame moss was just about to reach the surface, so it was hacked and tied to the branch again.
4-19








4-21


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## ThatPlantedAquariumGuy (Mar 2, 2010)

that's a great tank! really impressive! I want to start a 10 gallon crs shrimp tank myself and this is going to be some definite inspiration


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

I like your moss and shrimps  great work


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

ThatPlantedAquariumGuy said:


> that's a great tank! really impressive! I want to start a 10 gallon crs shrimp tank myself and this is going to be some definite inspiration





chase127 said:


> I like your moss and shrimps  great work


Thanks a bunch for comments guys! Greatly appreciated.


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## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

That moss portion in the dead center is just awesome. lt really gives you a good view of what the shrimp are doing. The only down side is you can't see nothing behind it. l always wanted to have some sort of moss carpet and this tank really gets close to that look.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

!shadow! said:


> That moss portion in the dead center is just awesome. lt really gives you a good view of what the shrimp are doing. The only down side is you can't see nothing behind it. l always wanted to have some sort of moss carpet and this tank really gets close to that look.


Thanks Shadow, the moss stick used to be standing up a little bit so you could actually see underneath it to the back wall. It could probably go for a slight trim as well. :icon_smil


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Could anyone enlighten me as to how often and how much Shirakura mineral Baby shrimp food I should be adding? No babies are present yet, but its been 2-3 weeks for most of the berried females. Expecting any day now, Thanks!


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## Moe (Jan 22, 2004)

I feed mine every few days, do you have the spoon that it comes with the Shirakura? I use about a half spoon.  Nice tank!


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Yup the spoon came with it. Thank you for the answer and comment Moe.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Arrived home from work this morning to find one set of babies scuttling around the tank. Maybe the third batch is the charm?


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

It appears as though the CRS that gave birth the other day has died. It was on it's back with another CRS going to town on it's insides. =[

I hope this isn't a reoccuring trend......


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Any updates on the survival rate of your shrimplets? Nice tank BTW!


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## arktixan (Mar 12, 2010)

That's an awesome tank...
I never would have thought Maple leaves would be good for shrimp... I have 2 HUGE maple trees right across the street from me, i'll have to use em now


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## nemosreef (Oct 19, 2007)

Tank looks nice. Cool shrimp.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

chad320 said:


> Any updates on the survival rate of your shrimplets? Nice tank BTW!


Been checking in the depths of the java moss, no sign of survivors as of now. They seemed to have stuck around longer than the first wave of shrimplets. Ty sir!



arktixan said:


> That's an awesome tank...
> I never would have thought Maple leaves would be good for shrimp... I have 2 HUGE maple trees right across the street from me, i'll have to use em now


Thanks! Yeah they really seem to dig the maple leaves over any other leaf I give them.



nemosreef said:


> Tank looks nice. Cool shrimp.


Thank you much nemosreef! I appreciate the coments folks!


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

forgot to turn the light off above the sink :X


















I plan to take some more versatile pictures after a good moss trim. It's tough to get a shot of anything else but the big wad of java...


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Soo I have been slacking on the water changes in the past month or so, and instead I have been just topping the tank off. The shrimp have yet to show any signs of discomfort.I have looked and looked and looked, but No babies seem to have made it from the past few batches. (when keeping up with weekly water changes)

Do you think the babies this time around have a lesser chance of making it to adulthood? 
I ask this because I have seen breeding success in shrimp tanks with and without weekly water changes.
Any thoughts? Suggestions?


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## redfalconf35 (Feb 24, 2008)

I've found that sometimes if you keep up on the cleanliness a little too diligently, the shrimp won't reproduce as well... I dunno whether that's because of it being too sterile, or what.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

What are your water parameters like? CRS babies tend to be pretty specific


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

My tap water form my well comes out at a pH of 7, and my tank water is riding at 7.6-7.8 right now
they are probably not liking that reading too much huh?
Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all read 0ppm

Maybe i should be sticking to weekly water changes to keep the pH lower.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Still have yet to spot a baby crs. Thinking about switching to RO water for the water changes....


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Finally got a KH and GH test kit from API or what not. Unfortunately I did not calibrate them. 
Here are the readings I found today:
Tap water: KH 7 GH 9

Tank water: KH 10 GH 13

The numbers represent how many drops it took for the color to change over. I am still slightly confused on what they mean exactly. Does the number of drops equal the number of degrees? and to find the ppm you multiply that number by 17.9? Or am i way off...?

Also, Any suggestions about using R/O water for water changes? 3-1 R/O to tap? 1-1?


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Hi Brian,

I'm posting the response to your PM question here, so others can benefit.

Bring your tank KH down to 0-3 range by diluting your tap water with RO or distilled. Experiment around outside the tank with mix ratios: 1:3, 1:4, etc of tap:RO or distilled water - you can use gallons of grocery distilled water if need be. This should also result in pulling the pH down below 7 somewhere. Do this by making the correct water for changes and doing water changes daily until the entire tank is KH 0-3 range. (It's gonna take a 20% daily change for about two weeks to get it changed over.) Keep in mind crystals hate water flux, so you can't make the chemistry change much at any one water change. (20% changes weekly once your water is to specs is good, no more than 20% or less than weekly is my rec.) Once it's in this range, your GH should be measured, looks like it will end up 3-4 or so. Use a calcium supplement to bring GH back up to 6 or above. I assume you are using water conditioner on the tap portion to knock out chlorines/chloramines/metals.

Crystals don't like carbonates. 

Change your produce to something with more nutrition - cukes have none. Use spinach or zucchini or greens (Kale, collard, etc) or dandelion leaves or even parboiled dark green romaine lettuce - green leafys have the most nutrition.

Does your HOB use a sponge prefilter? Make sure you're not sucking up your babies. Solely a sponge filter, as you deduced, does not provide fresh enough water as it doesn't circulate the water very well. The HOB does this; use a media bag with media in the well such as ceramic rings, turface or zeolite granules - these are porous media that will grow films of denitrifying bacteria on them - so you gently rinse them every so often, but don't replace them, you are farming bacteria on them. I'd opt for an oversize HOB filter or two smaller ones with sponge prefilter and cram the well full of a bag of media, forget the floss (if it's a ten gallon tank, then use an HOB rated for 20, or two rated for 10 - use at least double the tank size, especially on a small tank). Only rinse the media gently once a month or so. The point is you want to keep the media cultured well with denitrifying bacteria, but not clogged up with mechanical debris. A sponge prefilter will catch the debris, but you have to watch that it doesn't get too clogged and impede your water flow/circulation. And when you clean the sponge, you lose much of the bacteria culture on it. So use the two media types differently, cleaning sponge prefilter often (unplug that filter while the sponge is off for cleaning), and keeping your other media well cultured. If you use two HOBs, then do one filter one time, and leave the other alone. Do the other filter the next turn, so one filter is always undisturbed.

Make sure there are some places of calm water in the tank by placement of plants, ornaments, etc. Shrimp like gentle water movement, but don't like to be tossed around, and also like a calm place to retreat if they want. A moss wall or tall bunch of plants under the HOB waterfall is a good method to break the current a bit.

DK


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Thank you very much for answering my questions Donna, your advise is greatly appreciated!

I do not use any kind of water conditioner on any of my tanks. Nothing against it, I just never bought the stuff. I have well water at my house, and I am not sure about this, but I read online somewhere(....=\....) that I don't have to deal with chlorines/chloramines. On the other hand well water is usually much harder than municipal tap water. 

I do have a small black sponge over the intake of my HOB filter.

I will be starting the water changes today when I get home in a few hours from work with some distilled water. I do not have any kind of calcium supplement at the moment, hopefully the local Petco(not the pet store I want to shop from, but what can you do)will have something I can use.


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## Blue Falcon (Nov 9, 2009)

very natural looking tank. good work!


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Green024 said:


> Thank you much for answering my questions Donna, and for posting the answer in my journal.
> 
> 
> "Experiment around outside the tank with mix ratios: 1:3, 1:4, etc of tap:RO or distilled water"
> ...


Hi Brian, to answer your follow up PM question:

Get yourself a clean container and measuring cup. Put in, say, 1 of the cups of tap/well and 3 of the cups of RO water. Mix it, then measure KH with your test kit. If the KH is above 3 still, then dump the water and try again mixing 1 cup tap with 4 (or 5, or 6, etc.) cups RO water (you can use a 1/4 cup measuring cup, or any size, so long as you use the same unit to measure one unit of tap versus however many units of RO to mix in it). Measure KH, it will be lower than the 1:3 ratio was, because this water is more diluted now. Keep going until you find the ratio that brings your KH down to 0-3 range - that's the ratio you need. KH is caused by carbonates in the water. There are no carbonates in RO or distilled water. So by mixing them in different ratios, you are diluting the carbonates in your tap/well water down to the level you need. Once you get to the level of carbonates you need, then you adjust the GH calcium levels if need be with calcium drops such as mosura mineral plus or any number of products that enhance calcium. You mix up, using your ratio, the amount of water you need for a water change (say, 2 gallons total mixture for a 20% water change in a 10 gallon tank). You figure out the drops needed to get the 2 gallons of water mix to GH 6-ish. (Measure your mixture for GH before any drops. Add one drop, stir, measure GH again. Repeat until GH measures 6, record how many drops you used.) Now you have your custom water, perfect. Usually it takes about 1:3 or 1:4 dilution of hard tap/well water to get it into range for crystals.

If you're on well you generally don't need conditioner for chlorine/chloramines.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Blue Falcon said:


> very natural looking tank. good work!


Thank ya!



greenisgood said:


> Get yourself a clean container and measuring cup. Put in, say, 1 of the cups of tap/well and 3 of the cups of RO water. Mix it, then measure KH with your test kit. If the KH is above 3 still, then dump the water and try again mixing 1 cup tap with 4 (or 5, or 6, etc.) cups RO water (you can use a 1/4 cup measuring cup, or any size, so long as you use the same unit to measure one unit of tap versus however many units of RO to mix in it). Measure KH, it will be lower than the 1:3 ratio was, because this water is more diluted now. Keep going until you find the ratio that brings your KH down to 0-3 range - that's the ratio you need. KH is caused by carbonates in the water. There are no carbonates in RO or distilled water. So by mixing them in different ratios, you are diluting the carbonates in your tap/well water down to the level you need. Once you get to the level of carbonates you need, then you adjust the GH calcium levels if need be with calcium drops such as mosura mineral plus or any number of products that enhance calcium. You mix up, using your ratio, the amount of water you need for a water change (say, 2 gallons total mixture for a 20% water change in a 10 gallon tank). You figure out the drops needed to get the 2 gallons of water mix to GH 6-ish. (Measure your mixture for GH before any drops. Add one drop, stir, measure GH again. Repeat until GH measures 6, record how many drops you used.) Now you have your custom water, perfect. Usually it takes about 1:3 or 1:4 dilution of hard tap/well water to get it into range for crystals.
> 
> If you're on well you generally don't need conditioner for chlorine/chloramines.


Thank you for spelling this out for us(me:redface Donna. As all ways, you have been very helpful. 
1:3 was perfect. 
I am glad to hear that well water (generally) does not need a conditioner.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

greenisgood's instructions are working perfectly. Tonight's water change will be the 6th day in a row of water changes, and the KH levels are lookin good. I will most likely do a total of 7 water changes, than go back to the normal weekly regimen. No shrimps have croaked on me during this period either. Thanks again Donna!

20% w/c, 1:3 Tap: Distilled

Day 0, KH=10, GH 13, pH 7.8 (before water changes)
Day 1, KH=8
Day 2, KH=7
Day 3, KH=6
Day 4, KH=5
Day 5, KH=4-5, GH 6, pH 7.4


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Brian,

It would be interesting for readers if you put in your thread the beginning and end pH of your tank water, too, and also how long now until you see the first berried crystal.

Your calcium levels (GH) need to come up to GH 4-6 (use a product like seachem equilibrium or mosura mineral plus that add GH but no KH) - don't change the GH more than one unit a day in the tank- , and with this drop in KH, those crystal are going to think it's breeding season, and start popping like popcorn. 

Let us know! Science works!

DK


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

I added the pH levels in my previous post, and some of the shrimp have been berried throughout this whole process. A few have released them with no signs of littles ones scuddleing around, and at least two that I can see are still berried, one of which being one of my SS Grade Double Hinomaru.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Snagged some zuccini from a friends garden. Should be able to last them through the winter


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

How's the KH/GH/pH these days?

Need to get that KH down to 1-3 and this should also drop the pH a bit more, too, from your last update. You want to end up KH 1-3, GH 4-6, pH hopefully under 7. By the time you get the KH to range, you may need to supplement a tad for GH using something like Seachem Equilibrium or Mosura Mineral Plus. These build GH without adding KH.

DK


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

KH is reading 4, and GH is at 5. PH is still around 7.2-7.4. Its looking like I may not need a supplement for GH eh?

The berried SS finally had her youngins released, and I have just now spotted a baby shrimplet! Those little things are so friggin adorable.


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

I'd keep going until the KH is 1-2. When you get there, your GH will be a bit lower, too. And your pH should be lower, too. If you end up with GH below 4, then supplement up to 4-8 range using a GH only product. You're within livable range, now, but with a bit more adjustment you will increase efficiency greatly. Worth the change IMHO.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

I managed to take a step back in the KH department the other day. The power went out here, and when it came back on my filter stopped working. Thought it was toast(turns out it was heavily clogged). So I upgraded(or downgraded in some peoples eyes) to a self modified Rapids Mini canister filter that I had been using on another tank.....that receives normal weekly tap water changes.....woops. Did not think that through. The KH went up a degree, and the GH is in between 5-6. pH had not changed oddly enough, 7.4. 
I am thinking about bumping up the tap:distilled water ratio from 1:3 - 1:4 or maybe 1:5.

No sign of the shrimplets making it past a few days still, the KH and pH must be disagreeing with what they need to survive. 
Found a dead adult shrimp today, being carried off and eating by another. What a terrible shrimp keeper I am 

Updated pictures coming soon.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Well all I would do is what DK outlined. Very good specific info. Also a good RO unit will work. I think the Eco complete is buffeting your water to a higher ph.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Pre trim


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Post trim (Fissidens fontanus added under steel mesh)


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## sjuapseorn (Feb 17, 2011)

Curiosity!!!

How are the shrimpies doin!?

This thread is full of awesome information for me as I'm on well water also
 so I'm gonna sub it.

But I was wondering if you ever managed to get any fry to survive past a few days..


*BTW*
I don't think anyone asked but do you have a "whole house" filter somewhere between the well pump and the faucet. We had one before.. when that thing goes out of wack you'll see some crazy numbers on your test kits. Tossed it with a full house re-plumb to "Pex" or whatever that new plastic pipe is called. (its a good thing to because I would have killed everything in the world with all the copper that was leeching from the old water lines)

SJ


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

sjuapseorn said:


> Curiosity!!!
> 
> How are the shrimpies doin!?
> 
> ...


Hello SJ, 
I am glad this thread has givin you some good info! Donna(greenisgood) has been very patient with my questions, and helpful. :thumbsup:
I still have yet to get my pH at 7 or below. I am not sure if it is my Eco Complete substrate, or what. But I still have not had a successful batch of little ones make it past a few days of life. And lately, I have not noticed any babies being produced. 

I am about ready to call it quits with this tank setup, and move all of the shrimp to nice rimless tank with a new brand of substrate, and possibly add some pressurized co2. I was probably going to go with Mr. Aqua planted tank soil, or something similar. Hopefully these few changes will help lower the pH to a suitable level for the adults and babies.

Thank you for inquiring SJ! 



sjuapseorn said:


> *BTW*
> I don't think anyone asked but do you have a "whole house" filter somewhere between the well pump and the faucet. We had one before.. when that thing goes out of wack you'll see some crazy numbers on your test kits. Tossed it with a full house re-plumb to "Pex" or whatever that new plastic pipe is called. (its a good thing to because I would have killed everything in the world with all the copper that was leeching from the old water lines)
> SJ


Yes we do have a filter between the pump, and our faucets. I Do not check my tap water parameters often, but I have not noticed any funky levels coming out of it so far.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

I tried adding some Japanese Maple leaves to the tank. Maybe since crs are from Japan, and the maple leaf has Japanese in it's name, they will enjoy it even more! 
Sorry for the dust on the front panel, I have lowered my photo period by 1 hour, hopefully that will stop the dust from coming back.


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## sjuapseorn (Feb 17, 2011)

Those shrimpies have awesome coloring!! 

Hopefully you'll get it all hammered out and get some fry to survive! 

I'm going to start with Glass shrimp and then move on to cherries I think..


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

vijith said:


> Indian high quality almond leaves for sale.
> 50 leaves A grade just $10
> free airmail
> [email protected]


Can I get 100? What grade would you say they are and what size?


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

I really had to double look to make sure those were not weed leaves lol


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

problemman said:


> I really had to double look to make sure those were not weed leaves lol



Exactly my thought lol. So THAT'S the secret to healthy (and lazy) shrimp.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

sjuapseorn said:


> Those shrimpies have awesome coloring!!
> 
> Hopefully you'll get it all hammered out and get some fry to survive!
> 
> I'm going to start with Glass shrimp and then move on to cherries I think..


Thanks, I do plan on making some large changes to their tank setup real soon...




vijith said:


> Indian high quality almond leaves for sale.
> 50 leaves A grade just $10
> free airmail
> [email protected]


Sweet, I have someone slinging products in my tank journal :hihi:





problemman said:


> I really had to double look to make sure those were not weed leaves lol


 Pretty sure they wouldn't mind....:icon_wink They do seem to like the new form of maple leaf though.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Yesterday I de-rimmed a spare 10 gallon(still need to silicon the top corners). I may have chipped two small parts on the top of the front and back pain, but I can deal with it until I "step up" and get a real rimless tank... 
I will also be changing over to Fluval's Stratum Shrimp Substrate, and possibly adding some pressurized co2. 
I am also in the slow process of building a mini ADA like stand for this tank to sit on, and to house all of my 45 gallons equipment. The two tanks will be side by side for my viewing pleasure


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Substrate came in today, and the pH all ready reads 6.6-6.8.... It was that friggen simple huh?
Tested the tank that houses the shrimp now, still 7.6+. I even pulled 25% of the new tanks water from the old shrimp tank. The rest was from my 45g. 

Out with the old....









And in with the new 
pH 6.6
GH 4
KH 2
Nitrate 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Ammonia 0 ppm








Mmmm look at the uniformity...


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

The new setup is only a day or so old, but the water parameters all look good enough to be adding shrimp. I am trapping the shrimp at the moment, 3 have all ready made the move and seem fine. 
Still thinking about scaping ideas...


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