# Too much magnesium?



## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

Here's the reason I didn't know that csm+b had magnesium in it...

http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/plantex-csmb.html

As you can see the description just says it has all the micro nutrients you need in it.... instead of actually giving you the ingredient list. :icon_conf


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

Just tested my GH, it's up to 179 from 161.1 last week. I'm assuming the addition of magnesium is raising the GH, is that correct?


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## aquadoc (Jun 4, 2011)

trixella said:


> Just tested my GH, it's up to 179 from 161.1 last week. I'm assuming the addition of magnesium is raising the GH, is that correct?


Yes magnesium/calcium will raise your GH and CaCO3 will raise kH/GH but mainly Kh


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

Should I stop dosing the Macro/NPK& magnesium solution and just dose the CSM+B solution?


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## Sharkfood (May 2, 2010)

There are many of us out there that dose magnesium in addition to CSM+B, as we feel the magnesium content of that product may be a bit low.


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## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

Like Sharkfood said, CSM+B is only 1.5% magnesium; it's the MgSO4 that will really raise your GH a lot


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Is there a specific issue you are claiming to much Mg is causing in you tank or are you just over reacting because you found that your dosing two sources of it? I ask because there has been no evidence that shows too much of any fert will cause issues in our tanks. Maybe B but that is very inconclusive at best.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

My Tap had 52ppm of Mg, never had any issues with R wllichii, L pantanal, S belem, and a dozen others, Erios etc.

I later cut the tap with 1/2 RO, but this was more for the high KH.

CMS+B and the PMDD solution had a sizable amount of MgSO4 added to the original instructions.

I think it was about 1 table spoon per 500mls.
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/pmdd-tim.html


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Tom do you think it's necessary to dose mg when using CSM+B? I have heard it was a good idea but just over the past few days have been reading the contrary.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

Should I not be concerned that my GH started out high and is only getting higher since dosing the two fertilizer solutions?


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> My Tap had 52ppm of Mg, never had any issues with R wllichii, L pantanal, S belem, and a dozen others, Erios etc.
> 
> I later cut the tap with 1/2 RO, but this was more for the high KH.
> 
> ...


I think it was close to 3 tablespoons of epsom salt added to a liter bottle of the Macro solutions.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> Tom do you think it's necessary to dose mg when using CSM+B? I have heard it was a good idea but just over the past few days have been reading the contrary.


Well, folks have done PMDD a lot longer than many other methods without issues other than low PO4.

I've gone to 50ppm ranges without issues: 









You read something contrary ........on the web?

Oh my.......:icon_mrgr


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> Well, folks have done PMDD a lot longer than many other methods without issues other than low PO4.
> 
> I've gone to 50ppm ranges without issues:
> 
> ...


Exactly...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

trixella said:


> I think it was close to 3 tablespoons of epsom salt added to a liter bottle of the Macro solutions.


500mls = 1/2 q liter, the instructions state 1 tablespoon of CMS+B, 1 table spoon of MgSO4, 1 Tablespoon of KNO3 and 2 for the K2SO4, but this can be replaced with GH booster unless you believe whacky K+ myths. The GH booster will add more MgSO4 and there's a little in the CMS, so you are about close to 1.5 table spoons per 1/2 liter, or 3 table spoons per liter of solution.

The break down in ratios and ppm's are listed there in the link.

Just do not mix PO4 into it.......keep that separate from CMS.
Macros and micros are typically what many dose if they use liquids.
PO4 dosing was not considered much at the time of PMDD due to the belief it caused algae. But many did dose small amounts to stave off strong limitations on plants.

I, on the other hand, dosed a lot and reaped the benefits not to mention the knowledge and the better understanding.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

trixella said:


> Should I not be concerned that my GH started out high and is only getting higher since dosing the two fertilizer solutions?


Austin TX tap water, you might not need any Ca++, mostly just Mg for GH additions. Depends on the water change frequency.

More water changes never hurt.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I dose 2tsp of MgSO4 every other day into my 65g along with my mixture of 50/50 CSM+B/Miller Microplex. The plants love it! Not sure exactly what our Mg tap amounts are off the top of my head but we have hard water here as well. 

Then again, I'm just another web user.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> > Austin TX tap water, you might not need any Ca++, mostly just Mg for GH additions. Depends on the water change frequency.
> ...


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

trixella said:


> > The calcium is mixed in the csm+b so I'm not sure how to separate it. Excuse my newbie ignorance, but, are you saying that I still need to add the magnesium sulfate into the solution? What do you mean by "GH addition"?
> >
> > I'm having issues with water changes making my tank cloudy....
> >
> ...


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

I just tested my GH again and it's up even more since a couple of days ago... gone from 179 to 196.9.... going up and up and up....


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

trixella said:


> I just tested my GH again and it's up even more since a couple of days ago... gone from 179 to 196.9.... going up and up and up....


Try a water change, particularly if you are new, this is an easy thing, keeps tank clean and adds CO2 rich water etc etc.

You need not remove the Ca++ from anything.
MgSO4- epsom salt, every grocer and Rite Aid etc carries it.

GH is more an all inclusive blend, "GH booster" is sold and is generally about 50% K2SO4, 25% CaSO4 and 25% MgSO4.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> > Try a water change, particularly if you are new, this is an easy thing, keeps tank clean and adds CO2 rich water etc etc.
> ...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

trixella said:


> > I'm not sure if you saw my above post but I'm having issues with water changes making my tank really cloudy. When I was doing weekly changes, my water stayed cloudy constantly (never un clouding).
> >
> > Yes, I had a big box of epsom salt already and like I said in the op, I added it into the macro solution so now I believe between my epsom salt laden macros and magnesium sulfate in the micros too that it is contributing to my GH getting higher... is that wrong?
> >
> ...


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

> =plantbrain;1417952
> 
> GH booster adds Mg as well as K+, not just Ca.
> You likely have plenty of Ca, but adding more does no harm.


Will all the magnesium I'm adding in cause the GH to rise?



> The water change issue is more of an issue.
> 
> The water change should NOT stay cloudy, maybe a few hours is all.


Tell me about it!  I just now did a water change with ro water so I will see if I have the same cloudy reaction that I get with my tap water. Can something in my tap (like the high ammonia levels or possible silicates) be affecting the tank/bacteria when I do my water changes, causing the cloudiness?


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

Just got home from work and the tank is clear so it must be something in my tap that's causing the cloudiness. Great! Now I get to buy another expensive piece of equipment (ro unit)! :icon_conf


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Constant additions of tap water are probably helping to contribute to your high Gh issues. If you arent doing a 50% change you arent reducing your previous Gh reading by much. Topping up and Mg additions are raising it fast. !/2 tap @ 50% change should start to show a reduction of Gh. Always top up with RO water. Otherwise the salts that youve added dont evaporate, they just build up. hence the need for pure water or large changes.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

chad320 said:


> Constant additions of tap water are probably helping to contribute to your high Gh issues. If you arent doing a 50% change you arent reducing your previous Gh reading by much. Topping up and Mg additions are raising it fast. !/2 tap @ 50% change should start to show a reduction of Gh. Always top up with RO water. Otherwise the salts that youve added dont evaporate, they just build up. hence the need for pure water or large changes.


What if I just slowly change over to using all ro water?


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## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

All RO water can lead to its own issues, and you will definitely have to be using lots of GH booster there or a similar product like SeaChem Equilibrium (essentially Seachem's version of GH booster) to boost your GH on every water change.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

What if I were to top off with tap water and do my usual weekly 13% water change with all ro water? 

Also, it seems like the gh booster like Seachems has all the same ingredients as the csm+b... is that correct? If it does then is it really necessary to supplement the little bit of ro water I'd be using for my changes with gh booster since I would be adding the same minerals with the csm+b?

Btw, I just tested my tap gh and it is between 107.4 and 125.3 so all the magnesium I've been adding has been causing the gh to climb.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

trixella said:


> What if I were to top off with tap water and do my usual weekly 13% water change with all ro water?
> 
> Also, it seems like the gh booster like Seachems has all the same ingredients as the csm+b... is that correct? If it does then is it really necessary to supplement the little bit of ro water I'd be using for my changes with gh booster since I would be adding the same minerals with the csm+b?
> 
> Btw, I just tested my tap gh and it is between 107.4 and 125.3 so all the magnesium I've been adding has been causing the gh to climb.


Does anyone have any advice on this? I really am trying to figure out what to do here. :icon_neut The reason I would like to do the reverse order of what Chad suggested is b/c when I top off with tap, I don't get the cloudy reaction, but when I do my 3 gallon water changes with tap, I get very cloudy water that lasts for days to a week... so that's why I'd like to do wc's with the ro and do the top off with tap but I definitely don't want to freak out the chemistry/kh/ph/gh/etc of the tank and cause a crash.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I'd personally not worry about it. roud:
Dose a little extra Mg, K+, that's all.
Do water changes etc.

Stay away from RO.

Unless you have some specific need for RO and fish, breeding etc.........there's little if any use for it.

Micromanagement of GH is not particularly useful, provided you are are not limiting anything. Many prefer higher GH anyway. 

My tanks have gone from 2GH here in Sac up to 24-25 in Santa Barabara. Pretty wide range and everything in between.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

Thank you, that's good to know about the high gh. I do think I have a need for the ro though... it doesn't make my water cloudy when I do wc's like my tap water does... so I'm back to wanting to know if the "top off with tap water but do water changes with ro" route would be safe? Or is there a way to achieve clear water with tap water changes (I'd much prefer this)? 

I spoke with Orlando at Green Leaf Aquariums and he said he thinks my tap water is causing percipitation with possible high iron and phosphates in my tap water reacting. He recommended switching to all ro and adding the PPS Pro in addition to a gh booster like Equilibrium or the one they carry.


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

I agree with Orlando first. But if you want to limit water waste I recommend topping off with RO and doing WCs with tap.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

chad320 said:


> I agree with Orlando first. But if you want to limit water waste I recommend topping off with RO and doing WCs with tap.


How do I avoid a cloudy tank when I use my tap water for wc's?


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Give it a 50% with RO to start your program. How long is it cloudy after a WC?


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

> chad320 said:
> 
> 
> > Give it a 50% with RO to start your program.
> ...


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

Here's my tank before and after my "3 week no water change" experiment...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/139482-no-wc-clearness-wc-cloudy.html


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

trixella said:


> Thank you, that's good to know about the high gh. I do think I have a need for the ro though... it doesn't make my water cloudy when I do wc's like my tap water does... so I'm back to wanting to know if the "top off with tap water but do water changes with ro" route would be safe? Or is there a way to achieve clear water with tap water changes (I'd much prefer this)?
> 
> I spoke with Orlando at Green Leaf Aquariums and he said he thinks my tap water is causing percipitation with possible high iron and phosphates in my tap water reacting. He recommended switching to all ro and adding the PPS Pro in addition to a gh booster like Equilibrium or the one they carry.


It is actually pretty bad advice. I've almost NEVER once found a reason to use RO other than for fish. It's very wasteful and makes changing water a PITA. PO4 is not part of this issue.

The type of chelator can address the harder tap water, eg, DTPA added to CMS. I add about 1:4 ratio by volume of DTPA(eg Sequestrene 330) : CMS+B.
This is cheap and easy.

This is a very simple thing, dose, water change. CO2 and light are larger players here. If you want to hassle with RO, make this more complicated than it really is, knock yourself out. I try and keep things simple for folks keep them focused on the big picture, not micromanagement(this has never done any hobbyists any good). EI is tweaked as well to suit, every method does.

But.......only EI has a non limiting starting point, so nutrients are independent. This way folks can focus on CO2/light, then....after those are mastered, can tweak ferts easily/reduce % or frequency of water changes, if that is really desired. 

If not, nothing wrong with good frequent care for the fish and water changes.
It's not worth it to me and I most certainly have plenty of skill dosing. Some tanks get no water changes, like non CO2, other's maybe 1x a month.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

Tom, I would prefer not to have to use ro but how do I keep my tank from clouding up after using my tap water?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Don't we have to first figure out why tap water would cause your tank to cloud up? It shouldn't. Cloudiness can be "dust" or other fine particulates in the water. It can be bacterial blooms. It can be green water blooms. Fine particulates can result from chemical changes turning something into an insoluble compound. It can be particulates or living organisms in the tap water. It can just be from stirring up of the substrate. How can we decide which or what else it is?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Does it cloud in a glass container(cup)?
Add small amounts of ferts you'd add in your tank in cup.
If it doesn't cloud then you know what's up.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

I would recommend beefing up your mechanical filtration before you start looking at ro water. Take out whatever chemical media you're using and replace it with foam of filter floss.


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Dumb question, but for the sake of finding a solution to the cloudy WC water, ill ask anyway. Do you use a dechlorinator with your tap water? On top of that, cloudy for a day is no worry. Cloudy for a few days is something wrong.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> Don't we have to first figure out why tap water would cause your tank to cloud up? It shouldn't. Cloudiness can be "dust" or other fine particulates in the water. It can be bacterial blooms. It can be green water blooms. Fine particulates can result from chemical changes turning something into an insoluble compound. It can be particulates or living organisms in the tap water. It can just be from stirring up of the substrate. How can we decide which or what else it is?


_YES!!! I would love to find out why tap water is making my tank cloudy!_ roud: I've been trying. The one thing in your list that it is not, is me stirring up the substrate b/c I use a small cup to slowly pour the water into the tank and I did my last water change with ro water and performed the wc in the same exact way that I always do with my tap, my tank didn't cloud up with the ro water.



mistergreen said:


> Does it cloud in a glass container(cup)?
> Add small amounts of ferts you'd add in your tank in cup.
> If it doesn't cloud then you know what's up.


It was clouding up before I ever started using the fertz. 



snausage said:


> I would recommend beefing up your mechanical filtration before you start looking at ro water. Take out whatever chemical media you're using and replace it with foam of filter floss.


I;m not running any carbon, I filled the space for it with filter floss and have one of the Aqua Clear sponges and the bio ceramic bag and have a pre filter on the intake tube.



chad320 said:


> Dumb question, but for the sake of finding a solution to the cloudy WC water, ill ask anyway. Do you use a dechlorinator with your tap water? On top of that, cloudy for a day is no worry. Cloudy for a few days is something wrong.


I do. I use Aqueon water conditioner and have also used Prime. It was staying constantly cloudy when I was doing weekly wc's... only cleared up after I went 2 weeks without changing the water.


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