# Dirt and sand substrate



## abraham3660 (Dec 29, 2009)

I am setting up a new 20 gallon tall, low tech, tank. I want to try to use dirt. Are there any cons with using dirt? I will be using miracle grow with the little white beads, but I will he removing these. I will be topping it with play sand. How much of each substrate should I use? Should I thoroughly rinse the miracle grow? Anything else I need to know before having a dirted tank?


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## reynaldo194 (Oct 27, 2011)

*friend, Michigan*

Hi, my naime is rey. Becarful that soil will have some fertiliser that may harm your fish and will give alergy to the tank. The most best way and thisis my opinium is to tri some clay substrate with some iron and minerals. I have a 10gl tank that I set up a long time and is full of lived plants and goupys, let me no if you need some plants; I can shre.


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## abraham3660 (Dec 29, 2009)

This is the soil I want to use. Will this be ok if I remove all the white beads? Here is the ingredient list:


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## DrGonzo (Apr 12, 2012)

I would maybe recommend unfertilized top soil, really really cheap at like $1.50 for 40lbs, or a couple bags of miracle gro organic potting mix without the white bits. No rinsing, just a good sifting to get rid of larger particles. 3/4"-1" of dirt to maybe 2-3" of sand, I did 1":1" in a 6 gallon and my crypts would've probably liked a deeper substrate.


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## Studman0143 (Mar 20, 2011)

I have organic miracle-gro below my substrate. You'd be just fine using it. Be warned it has a lot of wood chips in it that will float so if you uncover it in the planting process or when adding water/moving things around, those wood pieces could float up and cause a headache. Other than that it would great.


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## altiuscitius (Jul 17, 2012)

Perlite is bad because it will float up. 
The wetting agents are bad. I believe they are toxic to fish, but I could be wrong. Most people in the reading Ive done say not to use any soil with a wetting agent.
The fertilizers are bad because they will leach out right away and lead to algae blooms or worse.

Im pretty sure from the ingredients in your pic, that you have the "miracle gro potting mix" in the green bag. This is not what you want. You want the "miracle grow ORGANIC potting mix" in the orange bag. That is the one diana walstad recommends in her book, that is the one most people use in my extensive reading on this subject.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

altiuscitius said:


> Perlite is bad because it will float up.
> The wetting agents are bad. I believe they are toxic to fish, but I could be wrong. Most people in the reading Ive done say not to use any soil with a wetting agent.
> The fertilizers are bad because they will leach out right away and lead to algae blooms or worse.
> 
> Im pretty sure from the ingredients in your pic, that you have the "miracle gro potting mix" in the green bag. This is not what you want. You want the "miracle grow ORGANIC potting mix" in the orange bag. That is the one diana walstad recommends in her book, that is the one most people use in my extensive reading on this subject.


I can't speak to the first part of this post, but the last paragraph is correct.


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## abraham3660 (Dec 29, 2009)

Studman0143 said:


> I have organic miracle-gro below my substrate. You'd be just fine using it. Be warned it has a lot of wood chips in it that will float so if you uncover it in the planting process or when adding water/moving things around, those wood pieces could float up and cause a headache. Other than that it would great.


Does the dirt really benefit the plants? I'm curious, because I was originally just going to use play sand. I went and looked at ferts yesterday and I didn't realize how expensive they were. If I used dirt would I still have to use ferts?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

The soil will provide nutrients to root-feeding plants for a while. For a low light tank, you would not need to add fertilizer.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

abraham3660 said:


> Does the dirt really benefit the plants? I'm curious, because I was originally just going to use play sand. I went and looked at ferts yesterday and I didn't realize how expensive they were. If I used dirt would I still have to use ferts?


What ferts were you looking at?

The organic matter in the soil, nitrogen, phosphates is what really helps the plants grow.

This is the ingredients of Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting mix


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## abraham3660 (Dec 29, 2009)

Would this one be ok?
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12664183


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

abraham3660 said:


> Would this one be ok?
> http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12664183


Looks ok except for the perlite. It also doesn't mention having nitrogen or phosphate, not sure if that will make a huge difference though.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

DrGonzo said:


> I would maybe recommend unfertilized top soil, really really cheap at like $1.50 for 40lbs, or a couple bags of miracle gro organic potting mix without the white bits. No rinsing, just a good sifting to get rid of larger particles. 3/4"-1" of dirt to maybe 2-3" of sand, I did 1":1" in a 6 gallon and my crypts would've probably liked a deeper substrate.


roud:roud:

40#s @ $1.17 - HomeDepot, unless you catch the sale price 87cents !!!

:icon_mrgr


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## abraham3660 (Dec 29, 2009)

I keep reading horror stories from people who use dirt and I'm getting kind of worried. I'm worried about how messy it is and water quality. Any tips or suggestions?


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

abraham3660 said:


> I keep reading horror stories from people who use dirt and I'm getting kind of worried. I'm worried about how messy it is and water quality. Any tips or suggestions?


- plant heavy from the get go and have a really good idea of where you want all your plants and hardscape to go so you dont have to move things around a bunch after you get it all set up and filled.

- plant your larger rooted plants before you cap the dirt, then pull them up slightly to the right depth in the substrate. use forceps to plant smaller rooted plants once the cap is down.

- use 1 to 1.5 inches of soil with 1.5 inch of cap (sand, pea gravel what not)

- fill the tank up with a bowl or cup sitting on top of a plate and pour water into the cup.

Those are the biggies that come to mind.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

If you want a sand cap use pool filter sand, not play sand. Play sand has too many fines. 

One of the benefits of soil (including potting soil) over sand is that the soil will hold the fertilizers in a way that plants can get them. This is called cationic exchange capacity. This is very good. 
It is not important if a soil comes pre-loaded with fertilizer. You will still need to add fertilizer as the plants remove it. But soils that hold onto whatever fertilizer you add (from fish food, tablets or bottled fertilizer) will even out the supply so the plants always have something available.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

abraham3660 said:


> I keep reading horror stories from people who use dirt and I'm getting kind of worried. I'm worried about how messy it is and water quality. Any tips or suggestions?


Go back and read those tales of woe and start seeing the pattern of mistakes and misunderstandings.

If a tank is not in balance i.e. Nutrients, Plants, Filtration, Bio-load one will have problems if they use the most expensive Japanese substrate or plan old dirt.

In these threads people focus too much on the parts and not enough on the complete system. 

Topsoil, Potting soil, or Yard dirt & Dog Poop doesn't matter IF you have correct filtration levels using established media, enough plants, light bio load and proper lighting and don't sabotage the effort with unnecessary frets.


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## abraham3660 (Dec 29, 2009)

What if my only option is play sand? Can I not use soil?


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

I got a bag of pfs at home depot or lowes for something like 5-6 dollars. You could use other types of sand that don't compact as much. I know some people use blasting sand, not sure how that does compaction wise though. 

You could also cap with something other than sand. Like small grain pea gravel.


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## abraham3660 (Dec 29, 2009)

It's just that I just bought the play sand, and don't want to Make the long trip back to the hardware store. Will capping the dirt with play sand cause problems?


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Play sand is very uniform in size, it's not as "dirty"as construction sand that I use. So it will need less rinsing.

There is nothing wrong with using playsand. I think the sand compaction is another non issue. I use 1"of cap over 2" of dirt.


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## abraham3660 (Dec 29, 2009)

DogFish said:


> Play sand is very uniform in size, it's not as "dirty"as construction sand that I use. So it will need less rinsing.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with using playsand. I think the sand compaction is another non issue. I use 1"of cap over 2" of dirt.


Do you use play sand as a Cap?


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## sype2470 (Jul 15, 2012)

*Silica Sand*

Been using silica sand instead of play sand. I bought play sand one time on accident and was rinsing forever. I ended throwing it all away. Silica sand takes less time to rinse and seems to be heavier. Just my thoughts.


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## Absntmind (Jul 16, 2012)

I've used play sand without issue. Just put some in a 5 gallon bucket, stick a hose in then let it overflow for a bit with the occasional stir and it's ready to go. One bucket at a time... It's not that hard to properly rinse plays sand. I can grab a handful from the bottom of my tank now and drop it back in without any clouding or suspended particles while plants root just fine.

Also a good idea if you use sand is to add some MTS to the tank as well. One of the benefits is they stir the sand without hurting any roots.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

abraham3660 said:


> Do you use play sand as a Cap?


No construction grade sand. 

I have some from a local sand pit . I just tried Sakrete All Purpose Sand. You should find it at Ace Hardware or HomeDepot 40#s @ $4.99. It's many 30% finer sand and 70% little gravel. To me it looks more natural than other sand cap options. Over time the finer sand grains will settle between the small grains of sand and the dirt.

If you want a fine sand look then use Pay Sand, PFS or Black Diamond.

It's sand don't stress out over this. :icon_lol:


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## alohamonte (Jul 25, 2006)

I would not recommend dirt. Aside from being cheap, doesnt do anything that flourite and root tabs wouldnt do. and most potting soils say on the bag that they are only contain enough nutrients for 3 months anyway.


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## caoder (Nov 18, 2011)

personally, i use backyard dirt in my 2 planted tanks, much more stable but i still dose flourish comprehensive weekly. i had no problems with it as long as i had mature or seeded filter media with the dirt. my plants took over and i need to do almost bi-weekly trimmings to keep them under control with my cfl lights on the tanks. i would definitely recommend it. I used gravel from a local river on one and sand from the fish store in the other. I preferred the gravel one. but just have a decently thick cap and your gold. 

good luck with it.


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## altiuscitius (Jul 17, 2012)

alohamonte said:


> I would not recommend dirt. Aside from being cheap, doesnt do anything that flourite and root tabs wouldnt do.


That is correct, there are a few different substrates systems, and all can be equally very effective at doing the same thing. The only difference is cost and time involved.



alohamonte said:


> and most potting soils say on the bag that they are only contain enough nutrients for 3 months anyway.


I think that this statement on the bag is meant for a terrestrial soil in an outdoor garden, where watering and rain will leach fertilizers out of the soil and away from plants over time. In a recirculating aquarium, and especially under a sand cap, this doesn't really apply.

If you're looking at getting substrate for a 75g tank, you can go with $500 of aquasoil, or $250 of fluorite and $30 of roottabs. Or you can spend some time mineralizing $10 of topsoil, and add a $6 sand cap .*

The end result with either method is a high CEC substrate with 3-4 months of built in nutrients, after which time you will need to start adding something organic to recharge the substrate, ie more root tabs, liquid ferts, fish waste, etc.

One method isnt better, you're just trading some work for less expense. I use and love fluorite. I use fluval stratum in a shrimp tank, because its such a small volume, its only $17 for the whole tank, and it grows plants just fine, and I love the look, although I find it super light and hard to plant stems in. I use sakrete construction sand from home depot over miracle gro and thats pretty good too, and very economical. Very fast growth once the roots hit the soil. Ive reused a quartz based amber and brown sand I bought at a petstore 20 years ago, with root tabs and liquid ferts in about 8 different set ups, and I was alway happy with the results. If I ever win the lottery, Im going to be making a huge order from ADA, I expect the aquasoil will work more or less as good as the others.

*(Prices, by the way, are from my personal research and are based on ordering heavy things online and getting them shipped up north. If you live in Vancouver, or Los Angeles you might have an Big Al's or ADA store 3 miles away and costs will be lower. And for the record, if the price per pound of substrate was equal between all methods, Id go with aquasoil or fluorite over topsoil in a heartbeat)


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