# Whos the best shrimp breeder?



## guppies (Jan 16, 2010)

I dont think there is any company breeding shrimps in commercial quantity in US. Mosts are individual hobbyists.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Those aren't US breeders.

There will be a US breeder at some point, I am sure.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

msnikkistar said:


> Those aren't US breeders.
> 
> There will be a US breeder at some point, I am sure.


I doubt there will be any time soon. There just isn't the demand nor value for shrimp here.

There are many hobbyists with serious setups but I doubt it'll ever get bigger than that in the US within the next 50 years or so.

-Andrew


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

A Hill said:


> I doubt there will be any time soon. There just isn't the demand nor value for shrimp here.
> 
> There are many hobbyists with serious setups but I doubt it'll ever get bigger than that in the US within the next 50 years or so.
> 
> -Andrew



Who says there isn't demand in the US? How did you come about making a conclusion such as this? Why would a US breeder only sell to the US? 

These are questions I ask, because you obviously do not know the whole grand scheme of things in regards to how the shrimp market works, or that most mass breeders sell to several countries, not just their home country. WHEN there is one (cause I am SURE there will be one, not saying me, but someone with space lol), they won't be just selling to the US market alone.

I can tell you this, there is demand, and LOTS of it in the US. And this knowledge, sir, is from experience.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

no demand? Lol. I get pms daily for shrimp, I can't produce fast enough.


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## Eden Marel (Jan 28, 2010)

I wish they were cheaper, being jobless and all.....


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## joshh (Dec 9, 2008)

Eden Marel said:


> I wish they were cheaper, being jobless and all.....


haha, jobless or not, they're still not cheap :frown: But well worth the money!


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

I don't see a need for a big major shrimp breeder. The hobbyists can handle all the demand right now.


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

EKLiu said:


> I don't see a need for a big major shrimp breeder. The hobbyists can handle all the demand right now.


Seriously? Go to any major web page and try to buy something worthwhile. They are very far and few in between, and USUALLY out of stock. The market is the same for mosses. Rare mosses are not to be had in any large amount from any US website. AFA included. I love those guys, but their page is mostly depleted. As for shrimp, anything rare is out of the question on ANY major site in the US.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

What do you consider worthwile?


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## boringname (Nov 11, 2010)

Given how easy it is to breed the common varities why would you ever need a large scale commercial breeder?


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

boringname said:


> Given how easy it is to breed the common varities why would you ever need a large scale commercial breeder?


It's not so much the common varieties like RCS and CRS that breeders go after. CRS and CBS, they usually breed the higher grade ones.

They will likely breed the less common variety. And even then, US breeders can easily sell and ship their livestock overseas, where there is a HUGE demand, and not enough quantity at times.


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## GitMoe (Aug 30, 2010)

msnikkistar said:


> It's not so much the common varieties like RCS and CRS that breeders go after. CRS and CBS, they usually breed the higher grade ones.
> 
> They will likely breed the less common variety. And even then, US breeders can easily sell and ship their livestock overseas, where there is a HUGE demand, and not enough quantity at times.


I gotta agree with Nikki on this one. There is a massive demand for shrimp in the US and its almost never easy to find what you want. Can anybody walk into their LFS and buy a couple OEBT? Nope, but you might be able to get a stupid Arrowana...

Awesome shrimp would sell like crazy in the US if available at your LFS. Keeping shrimp takes way less space and simple equipment while being a super interesting tank dweller to watch. A lot less space than an Arrowana, which are stupid if I didn't already mention that. lol.


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## hybridtheoryd16 (Mar 20, 2009)

But I would be willing to bet if you put arowana and crs in tanks side by side in a lfs the arowana would sell faster.. I would say in comparison to the whole aquarium hobby in the US only a few percent are shrimp keepers.

And most people that would buy those crs in a lfs would take them home and stick them in there tap water community tank to become snacks real quick.

I dont see any market at all around here.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Part of it has to do with the mark up the LFS has which turns people away. We sell them cheap (for the most part) out here in hobby land not to make profit. So we as hobbyists can sell a shrimp for 2-3 bucks where as the LFS is going to have such a huge market on them at 2x-10x times that.

The good example on that one are RCS. We can get them for a buck or less. Go into a FLS and sometimes find them as high as $5/ea or more.

As for best breeders...my hats off to Nikki and Mordalphus. I know there are others out here too so my apologies if I left you out.


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## avandss (Dec 15, 2010)

i am the best breeder.

( cant even breed cherries yet ...lol) regardless, I still am the best breeder lol


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## lilflippy (Oct 27, 2007)

avandss said:


> i am the best breeder.
> 
> ( cant even breed cherries yet ...lol) regardless, i still am the best breeder lol


lol


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## SSS Fan (Jan 5, 2011)

GitMoe said:


> I gotta agree with Nikki on this one. There is a massive demand for shrimp in the US and its almost never easy to find what you want. Can anybody walk into their LFS and buy a couple OEBT? Nope, but you might be able to get a stupid Arrowana...
> 
> Awesome shrimp would sell like crazy in the US if available at your LFS. Keeping shrimp takes way less space and simple equipment while being a super interesting tank dweller to watch. A lot less space than an Arrowana, which are stupid if I didn't already mention that. lol.


Just because you have no interest in Arowanas doesn't make them stupid, I'm sure the majority of marine keepers think FW shrimp are stupid. If Asian Arowanas were legal in the States the demand would be huge and there would be a lot more people who would be willing to shell out $1000 for a quality Super Red than SSS JPRL.

Personally, I'm planning to keep both. I already have a tank of PFRs and SSS Crown and Flowers. I also have a tank of plain RCS and PFR rejects but I don't really count them as they will end up as feeders for my Arowana .

Back to the topic, I would love to see more shrimp in my LFS and I think there is a large N. America market but maybe not for the highend stuff. I don't think LFS' would be willing to take the risk involved with keeping highend shrimp but maybe stuff like SSS CRS and down. Like Nikki said all the highend stuff would end up overseas and sold at auctions to people with a lot more disposable income than I.

Ron


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I've seen several folks selling SSS and higher, one here, one on CL's and one on Ebay.

So there's a demand.

Hobbyist can cross the high grade lines to prevent chronic inbreeding and make their lines better. Hard for each hobbyists to develop 5 lines independently, but each hobbyist can do 1 line. Then trade and cross those.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

james0816 said:


> Part of it has to do with the mark up the LFS has which turns people away. We sell them cheap (for the most part) out here in hobby land not to make profit. So we as hobbyists can sell a shrimp for 2-3 bucks where as the LFS is going to have such a huge market on them at 2x-10x times that.
> 
> The good example on that one are RCS. We can get them for a buck or less. Go into a FLS and sometimes find them as high as $5/ea or more.
> 
> As for best breeders...my hats off to Nikki and Mordalphus. I know there are others out here too so my apologies if I left you out.


The main reason for the insane mark-up (Yes I've seen A grade CRS go for 16 a piece and died laughing), is because of all the fees that they have to pay to import them from overseas usually. Or the lack thereof of stock. There are A LOT of people, who don't go one sites such as these to find deals. When I say a LOT, I do mean A LOT. I have some customers that are local, that have never set foot in an online forum. But buy from me continuously because eventhough I import some (from Canada), my costs are relatively low, which enables me to still sell at a very good price.

Now, if there was a US Breeder that could nix all those permit, port to port shipping, and inspection fees to supply the US, I bet the pricing would be more or less closer to that of what hobbyist sell at. Given that, it wouldn't be so expensive, the LFS would then be able to carry more strains and variants of shrimp, not just your typical RCS (which btw, when I lived in Ukiah wanted 7.99 a piece lol). 

There are a lot of people, who don't even know that shrimp can be kept in a tank, because of the sheer lack of knowledge that it is available to people. 

Point being, there is a huge market already for shrimp now. It could easily be doubled if a US breeder was able to breed and ship within the US and drastically decrease the wholesale cost for LFS.

It will happen, the only question is when.


Thank you for the compliment, but I would really have to give my hats off to DK (greenisgood) for breeding in the US.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

GitMoe said:


> I gotta agree with Nikki on this one. There is a massive demand for shrimp in the US and its almost never easy to find what you want. Can anybody walk into their LFS and buy a couple OEBT? Nope, but you might be able to get a stupid Arrowana...


When Wal-Mart starts selling CRS, I will believe the massive demad part. Right now you can't find the kinds of shrimp you want at your LFS because the demand is not there, especially at the prices they would have to charge.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

hybridtheoryd16 said:


> I dont see any market at all around here.




Maybe it's a big city thing, or maybe it's a big city with large Asian population thing, (the hobby having started in Asia)? All I know is the Bay Area seems to be OBSESSED with shrimp. I see low grade RCS and CRS in almost all the LFS. I see nice shrimp in ONE of them (and I’ve heard that several others also nice ones). Nobody is selling the ones that are top of the line though.


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## GitMoe (Aug 30, 2010)

A lot of good points in this thread. I like "thinking" threads. With the release of Fluval's new Ebi stuff I think the awareness of FW dwarf shrimp will only continue to rise. It's a good thing for the hobby. Another thing to remember is talk to the people at your LFS. If you walk in and walk out because they don't have what you want let them know. If you don't say you're looking for shrimp stuff they won't know there is a demand. Be vocal...


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## Eden Marel (Jan 28, 2010)

msnikkistar said:


> The main reason for the insane mark-up (Yes I've seen A grade CRS go for 16 a piece and died laughing), is because of all the fees that they have to pay to import them from overseas usually. Or the lack thereof of stock. There are A LOT of people, who don't go one sites such as these to find deals. When I say a LOT, I do mean A LOT. I have some customers that are local, that have never set foot in an online forum. But buy from me continuously because eventhough I import some (from Canada), my costs are relatively low, which enables me to still sell at a very good price.
> 
> Now, if there was a US Breeder that could nix all those permit, port to port shipping, and inspection fees to supply the US, I bet the pricing would be more or less closer to that of what hobbyist sell at. Given that, it wouldn't be so expensive, the LFS would then be able to carry more strains and variants of shrimp, not just your typical RCS (which btw, when I lived in Ukiah wanted 7.99 a piece lol).
> 
> ...


Tell me about it, the LFS here wasn't even selling 'grade A' cuz the body was at least 98% red with a single somewhatclear/white horizonal line on the back of the tail, and the shrimp used to cost about $15. Now it about $9 for the CRS that have maybe a small band of white/clear. Surprisingly enough (for me at the least) the CBS are now more expensive than the CRS. It used to be the other way around. Not very spectacular, if I wanted I could get at least an S+ with that money from someone here.

And I too have never seen a RCS for less than $4, it's always at least $4 or more.

Back then I didn't know shrimp could be pets either... I only thought of them for eating cuz that was the only time I saw shrimps in tanks was food type shrimps... like food type Tiger Shrimp lol xD I did see ghost shrimp but those were not very fascinating.




EKLiu said:


> When Wal-Mart starts selling CRS, I will believe the massive demad part. Right now you can't find the kinds of shrimp you want at your LFS because the demand is not there, especially at the prices they would have to charge.


I don't think I wanna see a Walmart selling shrimp, in fact they shouldn't be selling live fish at all.... maybe a Petsmart or Petco...


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

I believe the breeders are coming around as some have stated. The demand is becoming more so and the extreme types of species and hybrids are becoming a new craze.

Everything goes in cycles. In my limited time in the hobby I have seen very trendy ideas come and go (from different plant species to different CO2 injection to types of fertilization routines), but the demand for shrimp has always been there and has only grown since. The same people selling RCS 5 years ago are still successful selling them now.

My LFS sells CRS (crazy as that may be) and although not high grade, they are still selling them at $9 a pop and they are always selling.

Get some legitimate breeding operations going and volumes will hit the market (and hopefully some prices will drop).


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## AoxomoxoA (Apr 22, 2010)

Just look at the latest F&Sred_mouth) catalog, suddenly lots of FW shrimp stuff & pics. It is getting more popular here & I too believe it will continue to do so. Maybe not quite to the scale of some countries but come on you're blind if you don't see it or maybe just don't want to...(maybe it's not "cool" to you anymore?)
Fluval Ebi alone should be enough of a clue, I wonder how many they sold in the US or Canada in the last 3 months? Even if the other Fluval plant package is the obvious better deal lol why get a telescope net when you could get a CO2 to gas your shrimp instead?


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

EKLiu said:


> When Wal-Mart starts selling CRS, I will believe the massive demad part. Right now you can't find the kinds of shrimp you want at your LFS because the demand is not there, especially at the prices they would have to charge.


 
Wal-Mart is your bench mark for demand? By that logic, there’s no demand for CPDs either.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

It is all about creating a market. It isn't that there isn't interest, it is that dwarf shrimp are relatively unknown to the average consumer. When people see them though, the novelty alone will sell them. 

You can price them as high as you want, too... Someone will always buy them. Some people buy them ONLY because they cost more....


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Betta Maniac said:


> Wal-Mart is your bench mark for demand? By that logic, there’s no demand for CPDs either.


I said "massive" demand. I am not saying there is no demand for shrimp. It's just not at the point where shrimp are mainstream enough to be a staple at the local fish store.

I can find CPDs at the LFS BTW.


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## leo1234 (Dec 2, 2009)

over_stocked said:


> It is all about creating a market. It isn't that there isn't interest, it is that dwarf shrimp are relatively unknown to the average consumer. When people see them though, the novelty alone will sell them.
> 
> You can price them as high as you want, too... Someone will always buy them. Some people buy them ONLY because they cost more....


+1 on not that many people not knowing about shrimps i myself didn't know till roughly 2 years ago.


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## ZID ZULANDER (Apr 15, 2008)

There is a demand. My normal job is going into pet stores and fish stores all day. I sell them dog and cat toys, treats, beds, bowls, food, and other stuff for pets. I talk to the owners of the stores and once they learn that I am a shrimp person they ask where can they get them at reasonable prices. I had a store owner just yesterday ask me. The demand is there but the pricing on the internet and what the stores have to pay is off. I dont think Hagen would have come out with a shrimp tank if they didnt see the demand rising for them. If I was breeding shrimp I would just sell to stores. They will buy a good number at a time and they will continue to buy from you if you treat them fair. Most of the time you sell a number of shrimp to one person that person never buys those shrimp again from you. Why cause they are now breeding them as well. A store is selling them to people that just want to have them in the tank to look at. Yes you might not get top dollar for each shrimp but you will move more and have a steady customer. That is my 2 cents.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Zid,

What do you think is a reasonable wholesale price for CRS? And what is the actual wholsale price of CRS right now?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

EKLiu said:


> I said "massive" demand. I am not saying there is no demand for shrimp. It's just not at the point where shrimp are mainstream enough to be a staple at the local fish store.
> 
> I can find CPDs at the LFS BTW.


ONly because they aren't readily available. I think they would easily sell if they were there. If you put it in a pet store, it will sell. It just so happens that livestock isn't how they make money and they really don't care much about having the newest thing.... Especially if it cuts into there bottom dollar.


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## ZID ZULANDER (Apr 15, 2008)

If you are talking about Crystal red Shrimp then it would depend on the grade. I myself dont know to much about the grading and the pricing. All I know is that if someone is selling shrimp to the public for say $4 bucks they shouldnt be trying to charge a retail store that wants to buy say 15 to 20 the same price. That is the problem. I wouldnt buy them either if I was a store owner. I probably would buy them and then keep them to breed and sell the babies. As these shrimp get more and more popular that is probably whats going to happen. They will cut out the breeder and set up a tank in the back of the store to breed their own shrimp and the person that is breeding and selling online will now be cut out of selling to the store owners. Keeping the pricing fair will keep them buying for a breeder than becoming one themself.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

There's a larger market here in the bay area, almost every local fish store sells shrimp around here. Lots of hobbyists sell too, some sell cherries for like, 35 cents.

I don't know if there's a market for the super high end shrimp like black king kongs or ssss outside of the ultra dedicated shrimp fanatics so I think those are still going to be a niche market. Same with rare plants, how many LFS's that sell plants will carry HC or dwarf hairgrass? All of them. But how many will carry something rare/more expensive like belem hairgrass or super rare crypts that are extinct in the wild? very few, if any.

If someone could breed a shrimp that had the colors of a CRS but the hardiness of a RCS. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

There are lots of aquatic animals you will not find at Walmart, thank God, and that certainly is not a way to gauge the market. There is a growing interest from retailers in selling freshwater shrimp. Many independently owned aquarium stores are looking to sell more varieties of shrimp. Most stores want to sell whats hot and whatever the latest craze is, and with the increased exposure of freshwater shrimp in the magazines, retailers take notice.

The problem is not demand, but availability. Stores are carrying more of the color morphs of Neocaridina because they are more readily available from Asian trans shippers, and they are hardy enough so that they ship fairly well and survive the journey from Asia to American stores. Caridina species and others are much more sensitive and do not ship well.

Massive DOAs in shipping is a major problem in importing shrimp, and if they cost 50 to 100 dollars a piece, forget it. Everyone has this problem. I can remember Zid Zulander posting last year that HE had a DOA problem getting shrimp from his inside connection in Los Angeles. That is is the only thing keeping shrimp from coming into the USA. Not lack of demand. Nobody wants to throw away hundreds or thousands of dollars


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

The demand for freshwater shrimp is increasing. But in the end, they are just shrimp. The care required for them is generally too rigorous for the _average_ consumer to care for. They are cute, pretty, and interesting, but I can't honestly see the demand for them to hit the "massive" level. Priorities are vastly different from country to country, and in the US, ease of care is pretty much top of the list for most people.

There is a _huge_ demand for them in the _freshwater planted tank hobby_. Which, in my experience, is pretty dang small in comparison to what "normal" people do. "Normal" people (so I've been told) have a ten gallon tank with clown puke gravel and fake plants with a handful of goldfish or guppies. "Normal" people don't care about their water chemistry, as long as it's drinkable and doesn't leave spots on their dishes.

It's kind of like me saying my fluffy bunnies are in such huge demand. Yeah, in my hobby they are. I've paid over $200 for a rabbit, EASY. Now tell me how many of you guys are willing to pay that much for a little rabbit? People look at me like I'm insane if I tell them that. Heck, my own fiance thought I was stupid when I turned down an offer of $250 for one of my rabbits. It means _nothing_ if you don't understand how the price got there, what a "leg" means, what density, texture, and condition mean. You see a cute fluffy bunny, I see a work of living art, prestige created by years of hard work and extensive daily care.

You see that work of living art in your shrimp. I see... a black shrimp with a white stripe on it. And I can guarantee you that's what 99% of Americans think.

Yeah, I know. I'm being a bad guy right now. Sorry.


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## xJaypex (Jul 4, 2009)

Odds are that 1 out of every 500 students you ask if they breed or have shrimp as pets will say yes. Maybe less.


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## ZID ZULANDER (Apr 15, 2008)

Most WalMarts are getting out of selling live animals. I think maybe only in rural areas will they keep the ones that do sell live animals because they are making money off that department. Almost all of the Walmarts here in Southern, CA do not have live fish. For good reason.

Importing is a pain. The Exporters get their money and if you lose animals they dont care much. 

The US is far behind the other markets that keep and breed these shrimp. I think it will only be a matter of time and a few people breeding them before they are a staple in every fish store. Keeping the pricing fair to the stores so they can stay in business is important. 

I believe as a past store owner that the internet is good and bad. Good because you can get information but bad because the pricing screws up the LFS. The main reason these local stores dont want to stock exotic stuff is because they cannot make money on it. 

Retail stores need to change the way they do things. Change the way they stock their tanks and with what they stock them with. People are looking for rare or hard to find stuff. If I want a platy than I am going to go to Petsmart or petco. If I want to get a Red Arc Pencil fish or a zebra oto. I am for sure not going to Petsmart or petco. But I will have a hard time finding these animals cause the stores dont want to invest the money to stock them.

Another 2 cents. I think thats 4 cents now....



Robert H said:


> There are lots of aquatic animals you will not find at Walmart, thank God, and that certainly is not a way to gauge the market. There is a growing interest from retailers in selling freshwater shrimp. Many independently owned aquarium stores are looking to sell more varieties of shrimp. Most stores want to sell whats hot and whatever the latest craze is, and with the increased exposure of freshwater shrimp in the magazines, retailers take notice.
> 
> The problem is not demand, but availability. Stores are carrying more of the color morphs of Neocaridina because they are more readily available from Asian trans shippers, and they are hardy enough so that they ship fairly well and survive the journey from Asia to American stores. Caridina species and others are much more sensitive and do not ship well.
> 
> Massive DOAs in shipping is a major problem in importing shrimp, and if they cost 50 to 100 dollars a piece, forget it. Everyone has this problem. I can remember Zid Zulander posting last year that HE had a DOA problem getting shrimp from his inside connection in Los Angeles. That is is the only thing keeping shrimp from coming into the USA. Not lack of demand. Nobody wants to throw away hundreds or thousands of dollars


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

I should clarify and quantify a bit. Here in the US there is demand, but nothing in comparison to how the demand is in Asia and Germany. Very very very few people will shell out over $100 for a single shrimp, let along hundreds. So while there may be demand, there isn't demand at the price that can be had elsewhere. 

So yes, there is demand for RCS, Tigers, Yellows, etc etc etc as long as they're cheap. It seems that there is a growing portion of people in this hobby that will pay more for SSS grades but this is also because the price has fallen dramatically. I'm not sure exactly how many in this discussion where part of what I like to call the "race for white" or around when milalic and some others were first importing A grade CRS to the US. Or maybe more recently when yellows came in at $25 a piece then no one was willing to buy them so they dropped to around $3 a piece within a few months. So yeah, when I'm talking demand I know what I'm talking about. It may not be the same things that you think of as demand though. There is demand, but American value on shrimp is much lower than in Asia and Germany. It is growing though, and I figure within 50 years if the hobby continues at this crazy growth rate it has experienced within the last 45 we will have at least one or two large scale breeders within the US.

xJaypex... I would say it is much much much lower than that around the country. AZ is one of the most active areas for the hobby in the US after the Bay area.

-Andrew


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

Lack of education on the store owners is a big think as well. Many of them have no idea what they are doing with shrimp, or even how to tell people how to keep them. So people aren't going to drop $5 on RCS to have them die. 

Although I am starting to see shrimp pop up in more and more stores. Just the prices are pretty outrageous (wholesale on some of them are rather high too, $2 for RCS is what I saw one place charging).


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## ZID ZULANDER (Apr 15, 2008)

The store owners will learn how to keep them and what to do as long as it is making them money. All the new tech that comes out for reef tanks and such they have to learn that dont they.

It will take sometime before they become main stream at LFS. But I believe they will.




Burks said:


> Lack of education on the store owners is a big think as well. Many of them have no idea what they are doing with shrimp, or even how to tell people how to keep them. So people aren't going to drop $5 on RCS to have them die.
> 
> Although I am starting to see shrimp pop up in more and more stores. Just the prices are pretty outrageous (wholesale on some of them are rather high too, $2 for RCS is what I saw one place charging).


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## im2smart4u (Dec 7, 2010)

I like shrimp, but have never kept them due to the cost. I am not a huge fan of ordering online, and my lfs sells shrimp for over $12 a piece. Shrimp are so small though that you need several to give you something to look at, so $12 for a little shrimp would get expensive fast. I can see a market for shrimp if the prices come down, put I can't see paying even $20 a shrimp, much less $100s. (Especially when I think the expensive shrimp are uglier anyway. I would much rather have a bright red cherry shrimp than an ugly white SSS crystal shrimp even if they cost the same.) I think that the price some of these shrimp sell for are pretty crazy.
That being said, I think I am going to order some blue pearl shrimp from here. I am willing to pay $3 a piece. If some of the brightly colored shrimp would come down in price enough that the LFS could sell blue/green/yello/red shrimp for around $5 a piece, then I would think that the demand would go up considerably.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

Although I would love it if there were some large US breeders that carried all sorts of exotic ornamental shrimp, I really don't think it's going to happen. 

Firstly, I think a big reason why shrimp tanks are so popular in asia is that a lot of people simply don't have the space for larger tanks. This makes having an SSS crs nano tank or bkks or whatever more attractive because although asian hobbyists have money to spend on the hobby, they don't have the space to do larger setup.

Secondly, I don't think a lot of lfs in America will really be turned on by the relatively difficult care requirements of crs. Most stores do carry cherries, amanos, etc, but they don't require any special attention like crs do. And if I were the owner or manager of an lfs, I would personally be skeptical how many crs I would sell after informing customers that they have pretty specific requirements and that there's a good chance their fish will just eat them. Bottom line is that if lots of lfs aren't ordering crs, tigers, sulawesis, it makes a large commercial shrimp breeding operation less economically viable. 

Thirdly, why don't large operations already exist? Crs etc, have been popular for a while now. I'd be surprised if preexisting breeders haven't already looked into adding the more exotic species to their brood stock, but ultimately decided it wasn't a profitable venture. 

I think hobbyists do a good job of filling the current demand, just like hobbyists, rather than bona fide businesses do a good job of filling the demand for hard to find/rare aquarium plants.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Honestly, CRS aren't that hard to keep in my opinion. I think people over analyze and think when it comes to them. Although, I do understand, you can't just "dump" crs into a tank like you could with Neos. lol 

I think that a breeder being able to say breeder multiple color variants of Neos, (and there are more to come cause variants happen all the time) that there will be a market for them at some point.

I do NOT, and I mean DO NOT, expect shrimp like BKK, BB, etc... to be mass produced on the level that Asia and Europe does. And I would venture to say in doing so, would be really cruel to the shrimp if that were to happen. But having a US breeder, in my book, would benefit a lot of hobbyist here that don't see the need to spend more then $10 on a shrimp.

I, personally, would love to see people being able to buy a flowerhead CRS for a few bucks in the long run, (not profitable for me at all) because it would spread the love I have for these guys to more people. I want to see it expand to the point that it is in Asia.


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

ZID ZULANDER said:


> The store owners will learn how to keep them and what to do as long as it is making them money. All the new tech that comes out for reef tanks and such they have to learn that dont they.
> 
> It will take sometime before they become main stream at LFS. But I believe they will.


Not necessarily. You wouldn't believe the number of stores I've been to that are completely clueless, or just flat out lie to their customers just to make a quick buck. They just keep suckering the same people in time and time again to buying stuff.

The store I was to frequent a lot, knew VERY little about shrimp........just that they could sell them quickly for a large profit. They honestly thought Tigers were just a color morph of RCS and vice-versa depending on who you asked. So no, they don't have to learn. They just have to talk a good game and get people to buy them. 

And go talk reef tanks to the stores in my area. Coralife is still an "awesome skimmer for the experienced SPS keeper" as the store owner told me. They are about as intelligent in reef systems as a rock.


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## AoxomoxoA (Apr 22, 2010)

snausage said:


> why don't large operations already exist?


because nobody has given me the $$$ yet:hihi:

Awesome thread, everyone's opinion & experience is valued:thumbsup:

I'm going to turn on my only truly local lfs to my RCS culls. They have done mostly cichlids etc for many many yrs due to local water I'm sure & are extremely set in their ways & not open to change. I'm breeding very successfully in same water so I'm gonna drop off some freebies to show them they will sell. Let's start a grassroots movement to turn on all LFS to RCS (blue, yellow, green, etc) & turn the tide!:fish: The higher end shrimp will follow...(if gas wasn't $3.50 per & didn't cost $5 just to drive across town)

The thing Zid was pointing out (like above post) is that livestock for the most part isn't the lfs $ maker, it's the clownpukes who come in & spend $350 for $100 worth of gravel, filter, tank, & tippy iron stand)


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Wal-mart and LFSs all cater to kids under 18. Period. They have the very basic starter kit and will tell you its OK to put your shrimp in with your oscars in your 10g tank. You learn, they profit. Wal-mart has a logistic division that determines the fish they carry. All picked by kids. Top that off with a few best sellers for the last 20 years and there you have it. LFSs sell what sells. I drop off 100 RCS once a month and they are all gone the next at $4 each. In the bigger picture there isnt enough informed people or exposed people to have a huge market. The general public has to see them first to want them. Its growing everyday.


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## ZID ZULANDER (Apr 15, 2008)

Ok lets look at it another way for you. If they dont learn then people will stop shopping there as you have or should. The store owners that dont care about anything buy money and will do anything and say anything to get yours you should not buy from no matter what they have. The store owners that see the new things coming up the line will learn about them or will have employees that will learn or know about them. Sorry that you seem to have all the bad seeds in your area.

Why would you go to a store that keeps telling you wrong information anyway?



Burks said:


> Not necessarily. You wouldn't believe the number of stores I've been to that are completely clueless, or just flat out lie to their customers just to make a quick buck. They just keep suckering the same people in time and time again to buying stuff.
> 
> The store I was to frequent a lot, knew VERY little about shrimp........just that they could sell them quickly for a large profit. They honestly thought Tigers were just a color morph of RCS and vice-versa depending on who you asked. So no, they don't have to learn. They just have to talk a good game and get people to buy them.
> 
> And go talk reef tanks to the stores in my area. Coralife is still an "awesome skimmer for the experienced SPS keeper" as the store owner told me. They are about as intelligent in reef systems as a rock.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

msnikkistar said:


> I think that a breeder being able to say breeder multiple color variants of Neos, (and there are more to come cause variants happen all the time) that there will be a market for them at some point.
> 
> I do NOT, and I mean DO NOT, expect shrimp like BKK, BB, etc... to be mass produced on the level that Asia and Europe does. And I would venture to say in doing so, would be really cruel to the shrimp if that were to happen. But having a US breeder, in my book, would benefit a lot of hobbyist here that don't see the need to spend more then $10 on a shrimp.


Well if thats what you're talking about many people come and go in the hobby as big breeders. T_om and vinnymac and DiabloCaine were some of the early people with them for sale in large amount that come to mind. Other groups that have come and gone include aquaboy aquatics, the invertz factory, the shrimp tank, etc etc etc. Yet, at the end of each day, they are all hobbyist run and all only tend to last a few years. People used to message me all the time for shrimp as well. I know this from experience and knowing these people as well . 

The US demand is a lot of talking about wanting, then when they're available they don't end up buying them. I also can't really see there being room for a large breeder in the US because there are enough hobbyists breeding them and this will only continue and spread. Having a decentralized supply has its pros and cons though.

I've been watching the market for half a decade almost:icon_lol: how crazy is that. 

-Andrew


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

A Hill said:


> Well if thats what you're talking about many people come and go in the hobby as big breeders. T_om and vinnymac and DiabloCaine were some of the early people with them for sale in large amount that come to mind. Other groups that have come and gone include aquaboy aquatics, the invertz factory, the shrimp tank, etc etc etc. Yet, at the end of each day, they are all hobbyist run and all only tend to last a few years. People used to message me all the time for shrimp as well. I know this from experience and knowing these people as well .
> 
> The US demand is a lot of talking about wanting, then when they're available they don't end up buying them. I also can't really see there being room for a large breeder in the US because there are enough hobbyists breeding them and this will only continue and spread. Having a decentralized supply has its pros and cons though.
> 
> ...



Understandable. However, in order to be a successful US breeder, you have to understand that the market is not only the US. You have the US side, then you would send livestock over to Japan/Asia to be auctioned off as well. This is a very common practice that other mass breeders do.

It is not the US market alone you should be selling to, BUT you have to have the contacts. Which, some of us do.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

EKLiu said:


> I can find CPDs at the LFS BTW.


And I can find a wide variety of shrimp at mine, so I'm still not quite getting your point, or what Wal-Mart has to with it.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

A Hill said:


> The US demand is a lot of talking about wanting, then when they're available they don't end up buying them.
> 
> -Andrew


Exactly!!!


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## AoxomoxoA (Apr 22, 2010)

:fish:


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## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

The idea of shipping high-end live shrimp to the other side of the world to be "auctioned off"/sold just baffles me, to be honest. 
But who cares what I think. I only own cheapo amano shrimp. :biggrin:


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

A Hill said:


> Well if thats what you're talking about many people come and go in the hobby as big breeders. T_om and vinnymac and DiabloCaine were some of the early people with them for sale in large amount that come to mind. Other groups that have come and gone include aquaboy aquatics, the invertz factory, the shrimp tank, etc etc etc. Yet, at the end of each day, they are all hobbyist run and all only tend to last a few years. People used to message me all the time for shrimp as well. I know this from experience and knowing these people as well .
> 
> The US demand is a lot of talking about wanting, then when they're available they don't end up buying them. I also can't really see there being room for a large breeder in the US because there are enough hobbyists breeding them and this will only continue and spread. Having a decentralized supply has its pros and cons though.
> 
> ...


Excuse me, but the shrimp tank is still around. I'd also like to give some input to your demand misconceptions.

Your definition of 'demand' seems to be very precise... Like, to you demand is when people are begging for your product, and you can charge what you want. As far as I know, you've never been a breeder of shrimp. I'm old though, and maybe I just have missed your venture because you're a child. But demand is there, all it takes is a little marketing. I've never been want for paying customers, and sometimes I feel bad because I can't meet the demand for quality shrimp.

If you are having trouble selling shrimp, you need to work harder. If you think there's no demand, it might just be as simple as you doing something that potential customers don't like. It could also be that they don't like your shrimp, but come on... Who doesn't like shrimp!?


BTW, I only skimmed this entire discussion, but someone mentioned that in asia they only keep shrimp because they can only have small tanks... Which is borderline ridiculous, since the largest group of arowana keepers is in asia, and there are MANY fish that can be kept in small aquariums. Not to mention asia is flush with stingrays, which require HUGE aquariums. So give me a break, the reason shrimp are popular in asia is because they are AWESOME, can be challenging, and collectible! Just like any worthwhile hobby!

So let's put this to rest... The only reason there's "no big breeders in america" (although I have no idea what you people are talking about... Just because the large breeders in america aren't on message boards doesn't mean they dont exist), is because the shrimp hobby is only NOW taking off! Don't worry, there are some exciting things coming to the US very soon!

-- liam


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

msnikkistar said:


> Understandable. However, in order to be a successful US breeder, you have to understand that the market is not only the US. You have the US side, then you would send livestock over to Japan/Asia to be auctioned off as well. This is a very common practice that other mass breeders do.
> 
> It is not the US market alone you should be selling to, BUT you have to have the contacts. Which, some of us do.


I think to be a successful US breeder I think you need to be known in the US. IF you want to be a successful internationally recognized breeder you need to do what you're describing, but to be a successful US breeder I don't think you do. I also don't know how many people do this for neocaridina my understanding was that it is usually a caridina thing? 

Also, this is the big difference that I see between the US groups and Asia and Germany. In the US hobby it is _generally_ about mass producing and getting the shrimp to other local and national hobbyists, not making a name for oneself in the international circles. This is why people come and go and contribute to the hobby pretty anonymously, usually after dropping prices significantly on the species they sell.

Customs are also a pain in the rear, but if that is a game you enjoy go for it. 

-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

mordalphus said:


> Excuse me, but the shrimp tank is still around. I'd also like to give some input to your demand misconceptions.


That it is, although he is downsizing significantly. I talked to him the other day about getting some shrimp from him 



mordalphus said:


> Your definition of 'demand' seems to be very precise... Like, to you demand is when people are begging for your product, and you can charge what you want. As far as I know, you've never been a breeder of shrimp. I'm old though, and maybe I just have missed your venture because you're a child. But demand is there, all it takes is a little marketing. I've never been want for paying customers, and sometimes I feel bad because I can't meet the demand for quality shrimp.


As far as what demand is... I figured I'd just grab a generic definition from wikipedia for the sake of time. 



> In economics, demand is the desire to own anything, the ability to pay for it, and the willingness to pay[1] (see also supply and demand). The term demand signifies the ability or the willingness to buy a particular commodity at a given point of time.


There is generally much greater desire to own nice shrimp, with a smaller group of people with the ability to pay for it, and then even smaller who are willing to pay for it when presented the opportunity. 

I've been following shrimp prices as a personal interest of mine for the past five years. In November of 2005 I purchased my first RCS and still have the same line. In 2006 or 2007 I purchased my first CRS then later on purchased my second group. Breeding them successfully until I became bored with them. All this was before you entered the hobby (to my knowledge based on your join date.) Personally, I get too stressed out over shipping expensive shrimp so I stopped doing it a couple years ago. Although, I must apologize for being young, it sure is an amazing time to be a young whippersnapper. 

Although, I do find it funny that now someone has issue with my age since I'm 19... at 14 everyone on here was fine with it, so was everyone every other year until now. 



mordalphus said:


> If you are having trouble selling shrimp, you need to work harder. If you think there's no demand, it might just be as simple as you doing something that potential customers don't like. It could also be that they don't like your shrimp, but come on... Who doesn't like shrimp!?


This is not what I have stated whatsoever. Although, since you wanted to bring it up... I know a thing or two about selling things. I've sold 20¢ blue bic pens for $20 in the past because someone bet me I couldn't sell one for $10. I'm self employed, 19 years old, and working on my second and third ventures at the moment, about to begin running ASU's Entrepreneurship club, while a full time student amongst other things. In my spare time I advise the SAT Committee and CollegeBoard as a whole as a "kid." 



mordalphus said:


> So let's put this to rest... The only reason there's "no big breeders in america" (although I have no idea what you people are talking about... Just because the large breeders in america aren't on message boards doesn't mean they dont exist), is because the shrimp hobby is only NOW taking off! Don't worry, there are some exciting things coming to the US very soon!
> 
> -- liam


Liam, I think this is a very interesting and worth while discussion to have. The shrimp hobby has been "just taking off" for the past five years not just now. I've been watching it the whole time and it is always very interesting but also a bit boring after a while, and this is why you see such a high turnover rate. 

Sincerely,
-Andrew


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

You're 19? lol, i thought you were much younger, my bad!

Well, I'm glad you're getting into all these clubs and such so young, it should really help you out later in life, when you get things all figured out! 

Also, by your own admission, you got out of shrimpkeeping due to it boring you, so why do you feel the need to criticize others who are doing it successfully?

Good luck!


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

mordalphus said:


> You're 19? lol, i thought you were much younger, my bad!
> 
> Well, I'm glad you're getting into all these clubs and such so young, it should really help you out later in life, when you get things all figured out!
> 
> Good luck!


Yeah, I'm getting old... 

I'm flattered you thought I was younger though! 

When I was 14 I was sending moss to world renowned bryologists and whatnot and at 16 I imported fertilizers from another member on the other side of the world. So I did do some interesting stuff when I was a wee lad. 

Also, I do not recall criticizing anyone doing it successfully. I stated that the Asian and German Hobby culture will not evolve here for at least 50 or so years. Will over at the shrimp tank is a great guy, if that is who you are referring to, yet he is downsizing because he moved recently. 

If you were wondering about my crs, just click on the forum to sort for most viewed or most posts. It is old for sure, and you new guys in the hobby may not really understand the hobby at the time (four years ago now?) but it is still there with some photos and info.

-Andrew


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

A Hill said:


> I think to be a successful US breeder I think you need to be known in the US. IF you want to be a successful internationally recognized breeder you need to do what you're describing, but to be a successful US breeder I don't think you do. I also don't know how many people do this for neocaridina my understanding was that it is usually a caridina thing?
> 
> Also, this is the big difference that I see between the US groups and Asia and Germany. In the US hobby it is _generally_ about mass producing and getting the shrimp to other local and national hobbyists, not making a name for oneself in the international circles. This is why people come and go and contribute to the hobby pretty anonymously, usually after dropping prices significantly on the species they sell.
> 
> ...


Say what? I am not trying to condescending to you, so I apologize ahead of time if you think I am.

What really is the difference between only being recognized as a US breeder? Makes no sense to me what-so-ever. I am not trying to personally attack you, so please don't think I am. 

Honestly, don't take this wrong PLEASE , but it sounds to me you are making a lot of assumptions on things without knowing the full scheme of things. Not saying you don't know things, but there are some key factors you don't know about, that I do and probably won't say.

Mass breeders, breed a lot of shrimp, not just caridinas. They breed many species at a time.

Who says they are trying to make a name for themselves internationally? HUH? Some of the biggest breeders, aren't even well known because they choose not to be. However, they also know that in order to maintain, they have to sell to multiple sources. It's not always about being famous, ya know. Not everyone wants to be "Silane". I sure as heck don't. Besides, I know of at least 2-3 mass breeders, that no one knows about, but breed just as prolifically as the well known ones. So, I have no idea where "fame" comes into play. It's about making wise business choices.

If I can mass produce, and am able to make high profits from Asia, then I can decrease cost for US because it wouldn't matter what I made here. That's my theory anyways.

Heck, I don't even know what I am talking about anymore. I'm confused now.


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## Joe.1 (Nov 23, 2009)

It seems like the shrimp hobby is starting to catch on as more and more people are getting into planted tanks. I saw a really mediocre nano setup with about 20 grade s maybe s+ crs at an (undisclosed) lfs sell for $800. I laughed when the guy at the counter told me. And I forgot to mention they sell s+ crs for $14.99 a piece too.


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

The shrimp hobby will expand, no doubt about that. However, even taking a superficial or brief look at the typical fish-hobby consumer and then taking a look at shrimp should tell us that there are some huge hurdles that the shrimp hobby probably won't overcome to become mainstream.

Your average fish-hobby consumer does not value fish as pets and would not be even remotely distraught as anyone here on plantedtank.net over losing a fish or two...most will try to add fish together on a whim with very little thought. They are minimalists when it comes to taking care of a fish tank (there are exceptions). This is why the most popular fish (when you consider everyone keeping fish) are the hardiest, easiest to keep. 90% of the people I know that keep fish have mostly freshwater, hardy, inexpensive fish. They only do water top-offs, change the filter and scoop up unwanted trash in the tank...pretty chill maintenance.

The best example of a market that is both expensive and time consuming having taken off is the salt water hobby. Unfortunately, for most people, shrimps are not as attractive as a window into the sea - and I don't think that's even debatable. 

Shrimps are too time consuming with too little appeal for average consumers to take the hobby of keeping shrimp to a serious level. 

As far as those that think US breeders aren't limited to selling to US consumers only, you may want to rethink the logic there. Breeders won't pop up in the US unless there is a stable, profitable market here. How is a US breeder, unless they are somehow incredibly unique, going to sell to an Asian market saturated by breeders? They aren't magically going to become competitive there. Success must come domestically before they even have a chance of expanding to other markets...it is not logical to counter someone saying that the US market isn't big enough by saying "hey they'd also be selling in Asia!" Chances are pretty low that a US breeder, barring some sort of innovation, is going to stay afloat with a minor US consumer base and a strong Asian consumer base.

The hobby is going to expand. Is it going to become the quintessential image of fish keeping in the US? I don't think so...at least not for a long long time.


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## justin182 (Aug 19, 2009)

interesting thread!!
someone step up the shrimp production!!


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## oblongshrimp (Jul 26, 2006)

Great debate guys. As for The Shrimp Tank I did have to downsize my operation a bit as I got married in December and moved. I have gotten my wife into it though so hopefully I can convince her to let me take over the spare bedroom (I mean no one ever stays there anyways ) once we get everything else settled down.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

astrosag said:


> As far as those that think US breeders aren't limited to selling to US consumers only, you may want to rethink the logic there. Breeders won't pop up in the US unless there is a stable, profitable market here. How is a US breeder, unless they are somehow incredibly unique, going to sell to an Asian market saturated by breeders? They aren't magically going to become competitive there. Success must come domestically before they even have a chance of expanding to other markets...it is not logical to counter someone saying that the US market isn't big enough by saying "hey they'd also be selling in Asia!" Chances are pretty low that a US breeder, barring some sort of innovation, is going to stay afloat with a minor US consumer base and a strong Asian consumer base.


Let me catch my breath now from laughing.

You do realize there is only really about 3-4 "mass" breeders in the world right? And some of the biggest one's are in Taiwan. The Asian market, is not saturated with breeders at all. As a matter of fact, the demand for certain shrimp (BKK, WR, etc...) is in so high demand, that they can't keep up with the orders. Then there is other things I won't/can't get into.

However, with that being said. I have a very good friend. He makes sells all over Canada, which is vastly less populated in the US. He makes a VERY good living doing that. But he also makes very good money selling to OTHER countries outside of the US and Canada. This is why I make the statements I do, because I *KNOW* someone experienced, and I *KNOW* it happens. However, I do believe that without the right contacts/knowledge, a US breeder has the potential of being unsuccessful. They pretty much have to be trained or learn the process to build a facility capable of mass producing while keeping quality in check.


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## AoxomoxoA (Apr 22, 2010)

mordalphus said:


> Excuse me, but the shrimp tank is still around. I'd also like to give some input to your demand misconceptions.
> 
> Your definition of 'demand' seems to be very precise... Like, to you demand is when people are begging for your product, and you can charge what you want. As far as I know, you've never been a breeder of shrimp. I'm old though, and maybe I just have missed your venture because you're a child. But demand is there, all it takes is a little marketing. I've never been want for paying customers, and sometimes I feel bad because I can't meet the demand for quality shrimp.
> 
> ...


Thank you Liam, this is what I was trying to say in the post above that i deleted last night. I couldn't quite put it together like you did.

Just because one person doesn't think it's cool or worthwhile anymore doesn't mean it's not happening as we speak. I get an elitist vibe from Mr. Hill & didn't want to say it the wrong way... (I also attributed this to age, but that's not really fair)
Nobody cares if _someone_ was doing this before them. Maybe that needs to be said? It has no bearing on wether or not there will be (or are ) mass breeders in US. 
Mr. Hill, Opinions are valued, but they're just that & not necessarily fact. You seem to have a differing view (opinion) than the majority here.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

Ok who's the best shrimp breeder as per the op's original post?

Mr Yeh is often mentioned as one of the best commercial breeders.

Here is a video of his shrimp breeding operation (dialogue in german)

http://www.aquanet.tv/Video/230-die-garnelenfabrik-350000-garnelen-in-1000-aquarien

Imke was kind enough to translate the most pertinent parts into english:
http://www.blue-tiger-shrimp.com/blog/mr-yehs-shrimp-farm-in-china/


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

I'm one of the best shrimp breeders in New York.
:^)

Who else is the best?


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

snausage said:


> Ok who's the best shrimp breeder as per the op's original post?
> 
> Mr Yeh is often mentioned as one of the best commercial breeders.
> 
> ...



Imke is a doll. I've had some chats with her, and she is overall a genuinely nice individual. 

Mr. Yeh has several facilities, I believe. However, I think Crimson has the better quality of shrimp. So it's a toss up.

I am biased, so I would say someone else completely does. lol


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

msnikkistar said:


> Imke is a doll. I've had some chats with her, and she is overall a genuinely nice individual.
> 
> Mr. Yeh has several facilities, I believe. However, I think Crimson has the better quality of shrimp. So it's a toss up.
> 
> I am biased, so I would say someone else completely does. lol


I've heard great stuff about crimson too, but I really don't know too much about them. Aren't they Japanese based?

I think the Yeh shrimp are pretty darn good considering they have approx 350,000 at the location in the film. I'm sure you can find nicer looking ones at smaller operations that go for quality over quantity.


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## Navigarden (Jun 25, 2010)

Best thread on the shrimp forum in a while! Very interesting and educating to read all the different opinons.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

snausage said:


> I've heard great stuff about crimson too, but I really don't know too much about them. Aren't they Japanese based?
> 
> I think the Yeh shrimp are pretty darn good considering they have approx 350,000 at the location in the film. I'm sure you can find nicer looking ones at smaller operations that go for quality over quantity.


Crimson is Taiwan based I believe, but is branching out to other countries.

He has really unbelievably beautiful shrimp.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

msnikkistar said:


> Let me catch my breath now from laughing.
> 
> You do realize there is only really about 3-4 "mass" breeders in the world right? And some of the biggest one's are in Taiwan. The Asian market, is not saturated with breeders at all. As a matter of fact, the demand for certain shrimp (BKK, WR, etc...) is in so high demand, that they can't keep up with the orders. Then there is other things I won't/can't get into.
> 
> However, with that being said. I have a very good friend. He makes sells all over Canada, which is vastly less populated in the US. He makes a VERY good living doing that. But he also makes very good money selling to OTHER countries outside of the US and Canada. This is why I make the statements I do, because I *KNOW* someone experienced, and I *KNOW* it happens. However, I do believe that without the right contacts/knowledge, a US breeder has the potential of being unsuccessful. They pretty much have to be trained or learn the process to build a facility capable of mass producing while keeping quality in check.


Nikki, do we really need to be laughing at people? This not what this forum is about, it is about helping each other out and spreading knowledge to help the hobby as a whole. 

I am confused if you are talking about mass producing the extremely rare shrimp or more common shrimp. You continue to gone back and forth on this throughout the thread, which is maybe where there is confusion occurring. 

Also, I'm curious if you can talk about the difference in customs regulations between US and Canada and how this effects the hobby differences as well.

When I was looking into this (probably three years ago if not longer now) the Canadian hobbyists had a much easier time with customs between Caanda and Asia and it was common for there to be exchange. In the US, customs weren't as easy to go through and the permits and other things caused more of a hinderance than a help to the hobby, which is one reason why I believe that the US hobby culture is quite different. Most of the imports to the US that we have were and still are done illegally. Gabe was known for getting around the system by labeling the shrimp as snacks and placing a shrimp flavored snack with the shrimp he sent over for example. 

I don't doubt that it can happen, I just doubt that in the near future (lets say two to three years) that this will happen to the same level. If your secret knowledge that you can't discuss lets you or others who are in the know do this sooner than I think will happen I applaud you. 

-Andrew


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

A Hill said:


> -Andrew


If you felt that was rude, sorry. But it was not aimed at you.

Let me make myself very clear.

I WOULD NEVER sell BKK and the like to LFS stores in the US. For the simple fact that fish store people are notoriously ill trained and educated.

That by no means, in anyway, mean that a US breeder wouldn't mass breed BKK and the like for sale to Asia. Where the knowledge in keeping them is very widespread.

I have looked into the US side. You need permits from customs as well as F&WL, Inspections, and paperwork. Those are all easily attainable, and within reason of getting. You would be looking at about 300+ to send a shipment from port to port shipping. It's not as big of a hassle, if you are dealing with thousands of shrimp. A few hundred low grade shrimp, it isn't worth it, hence the reason why a US breeder would just sell those lower grades at wholesale to the US population and do a few sales here and there of the higher end shrimp themselves to the US public who are interested. It's done like that a lot. And it is not so much shipping out of the US that is a major issue, it is receiving shrimp into the US from another country that is at issue. You have to abide by whatever laws are for the receiving country.

You can do both EASILY and successfully.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

dirtyhermit said:


> Thank you Liam, this is what I was trying to say in the post above that i deleted last night. I couldn't quite put it together like you did.
> 
> Just because one person doesn't think it's cool or worthwhile anymore doesn't mean it's not happening as we speak. I get an elitist vibe from Mr. Hill & didn't want to say it the wrong way... (I also attributed this to age, but that's not really fair)
> Nobody cares if _someone_ was doing this before them. Maybe that needs to be said? It has no bearing on wether or not there will be (or are ) mass breeders in US.
> Mr. Hill, Opinions are valued, but they're just that & not necessarily fact. You seem to have a differing view (opinion) than the majority here.


Dirtyhermit,

I am no elitest, I have history and experience that is all. Just like I am sure you do in many other areas of your life. As the years go by in something you do you learn and understand how that area works. Lets call it industry experience or something. As far as age is concerned, why should this have any bearing, and if so, why not only my age? Could it also be other's ages? 

With that said, I'm not saying it isn't cool. I'm saying I removed myself personally from this section of the hobby publicly because I lost interest in certain specifics. I am not saying I don't think this will occur because I failed or that it isn't cool anymore. I'm saying it will happen, but it still is most likely and in my opinion (everything I've posted is my opinion, based on experience from five years in the hobby now) years off. 

You are correct I have a differing opinion than most here. What you may not know is that this thread with similar title appears about every year or every two years. Every year I am attacked and told to be incorrect, but every time those people disappear and I'm still here. In a few years, if we are all here and able to look back on this thread and say you guys proved me wrong. I sincerely hope this happens, the hobby will have progressed a huge amount and I can't imagine what it will look like. Yet, time and time again life tends to get in the way, people fall ill, finances disallow them from continuing, or they become married, have to take care of ailing parents, or have children and this usually also pulls them away from the hobby unfortunately against their will. There are also worse issues that occur, but I would rather not get into that. 

Or, maybe, my age has been my biggest asset in this hobby. I have been able to try things, watch the hobby, and learn. While I may not presently be breeding specific shrimp because of where I am in life at the moment. I still know people who are and can learn from them. I'm living in a dorm with inconsistant temperature so anything interesting is out of the question right now. 

Sincerely,
-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

msnikkistar said:


> If you felt that was rude, sorry. But it was not aimed at you.
> 
> Let me make myself very clear.
> 
> ...


That makes sense. In your past post you said what I read as an opposite statement which I believe where the confusion may have arisen.



msnikkistar said:


> I do NOT, and I mean DO NOT, expect shrimp like BKK, BB, etc... to be mass produced on the level that Asia and Europe does. And I would venture to say in doing so, would be really cruel to the shrimp if that were to happen. But having a US breeder, in my book, would benefit a lot of hobbyist here that don't see the need to spend more then $10 on a shrimp.


I understood this to mean that you weren't talking about these shrimp. 



msnikkistarI have looked into the US side. You need permits from customs as well as F&WL said:


> This all makes sense and really hasn't changed over the years. Your point about selling each shrimp to where there is demand makes sense as well.
> 
> You're right, shipping out is easy peasy, and not what I really was focused on when asking you if you knew the current stuff. It is importing them that is the trouble, and where the largest difference between the US and Canadian shrimp hobby occurs (obviously, this is what I believe). To my knowledge, Canadian import laws are much more relaxed because it is cold up north :hihi: they don't worry as much as we do in the US.
> 
> ...


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

All this aside... how about who are the best breeders here in America?


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

A Hill said:


> -Andrew



I have a tendency to not make myself clear sometimes. LOL

Glad we are on the same page now. And boy, do I wish I lived in Canada at times. There are no real issues with importing at all over there. Makes me jealous at times.


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## ZID ZULANDER (Apr 15, 2008)

This thread is making my head hurt.... I have been in this industry for 21 years now. I have seen some amazing break throughs in keeping fish, plants , and coral over this time. I am sure that we will have more amazing things to come.....

Everyone has their own opinion but lets see how things play out in the next year.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

gordonrichards said:


> All this aside... how about who are the best breeders here in America?



DK is my vote


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I also think DK is amazing, her method and preciseness is refreshing.

there are also many chinese breeders on the west coast with no internet presence who should not be forgotten.

-liam


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

ZID ZULANDER said:


> Everyone has their own opinion but lets see how things play out in the next year.


This means no one can leave the hobby :hihi:

As far as top breeder? DK is up there for sure. I think there are a multitude of people that are working on amazing things for sure within the US. There are a few in AZ, Cali, New England, etc. I've never been one to choose favorites though. 

I need to go take care of my laundry. Gotta love college life :hihi:
-Andrew


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

ZID ZULANDER said:


> Why would you go to a store that keeps telling you wrong information anyway?


Hell if I know. I ask them that and they say "Well, maybe he made a mistake". 

Ignorant customers are the best customers. They believe anything an owner says (Because owning a store means you know everything, right?) and keeps buying into it. They never learn. They'll just keep buying the *insert animal here*, kill them, and have the store tell them it was THEIR fault, so they buy more. 

Really not my "area", but more of the "state" that has crap fish stores. A good one here and there, but far from a multitude of great stores.


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## ZID ZULANDER (Apr 15, 2008)

A Hill said:


> I need to go take care of my laundry. Gotta love college life :hihi:
> -Andrew


 College life! Laundry goes on for ever. Unless you can get your wife to do it....


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

yah, laundry isn't unique to college... In fact, when I was in college, I rarely did my laundry, and now it seems I do it every other day...

and getting my wife to do it? Lol, that would be awesome... One of my few fantasies, lol


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## ZID ZULANDER (Apr 15, 2008)

Thats too bad. At some point the customer will figure out that the owner or employees dont know what they are talking about. I still get people that knew me when I had my store stop me and ask me questions because they dont believe the store they are going to now. I know I wouldnt shop there if they were giving me bad info. I have yet to have the problem. Not cause I pretend to know everything but because I do my research ahead of time. Internet is a great wealth of knowledge. It can also give you wrong information as well so no argument there. Good luck with your LFS......



Burks said:


> Hell if I know. I ask them that and they say "Well, maybe he made a mistake".
> 
> Ignorant customers are the best customers. They believe anything an owner says (Because owning a store means you know everything, right?) and keeps buying into it. They never learn. They'll just keep buying the *insert animal here*, kill them, and have the store tell them it was THEIR fault, so they buy more.
> 
> Really not my "area", but more of the "state" that has crap fish stores. A good one here and there, but far from a multitude of great stores.


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## ZID ZULANDER (Apr 15, 2008)

Funny its mine as well... Did 7 loads in the last two days. I didnt relize I had so many shirts. Guess its because its been a long time since everything has been clean at one time....:hihi:





mordalphus said:


> yah, laundry isn't unique to college... In fact, when I was in college, I rarely did my laundry, and now it seems I do it every other day...
> 
> and getting my wife to do it? Lol, that would be awesome... One of my few fantasies, lol


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## AoxomoxoA (Apr 22, 2010)

A Hill said:


> Dirtyhermit,
> 
> I am no elitest, I have history and experience that is all. Just like I am sure you do in many other areas of your life.
> Sincerely,
> -Andrew


Please do not assume anything about my history or time spent doing anything. Like I told you via PM, it's this very attitude that prompted the remark.

I apologize once again if I have inadvertently offended you. No harm was intended, if you would like I will remove the remark. (it will have to wait till after laundry, housekeeping, MTS maintenance, my kids basketball practice, cooking dinner, changing diapers, hauling wood, shoveling snow, feeding chickens, rabbits, dogs, cats etc., & all the other things I do on a daily basis that _nobody here cares to hear about & I spare them from._)
Thank you for singling me out about your age, since I was not the only one who thought this. I at least mentioned it wasn't fair to do so.

Back on topic, I do not have a clue who is the best, it certainly isn't me so I will leave the discussion to "experts" like yourself. 
Have a wonderful evening, clean clothes are always nice.


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

ZID ZULANDER said:


> Good luck with your LFS......


HA! I personally hope they fail. Extraordinarily rude and condescending to customers. All three of them actually in the immediate area...

I'll stick to online vendors and S&S. At least they know their stuff and breed quality shrimp. Not this crap passed from vendor to vendor.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

A Hill said:


> I stated that the Asian and German Hobby culture will not evolve here for at least 50 or so years.


Where in the world are you getting numbers like this? I can pull arbitrary numbers from my colon, too.... Doesn't mean anything.

Comparatively, look at the availability of shrimp compared to two years ago. It is growing exponentially. 

By the time you're done with college the market will be 10x larger... if not 20x.

See, I pulled numbers from nowhere too.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Okay, all. Let's back it down just a notch, please. This is a nice debate, but keep it civil. And remember to keep the reviews off the forums.


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

msnikkistar said:


> Let me catch my breath now from laughing.
> 
> You do realize there is only really about 3-4 "mass" breeders in the world right? And some of the biggest one's are in Taiwan. The Asian market, is not saturated with breeders at all. As a matter of fact, the demand for certain shrimp (BKK, WR, etc...) is in so high demand, that they can't keep up with the orders. Then there is other things I won't/can't get into.
> 
> However, with that being said. I have a very good friend. He makes sells all over Canada, which is vastly less populated in the US. He makes a VERY good living doing that. But he also makes very good money selling to OTHER countries outside of the US and Canada. This is why I make the statements I do, because I *KNOW* someone experienced, and I *KNOW* it happens. However, I do believe that without the right contacts/knowledge, a US breeder has the potential of being unsuccessful. They pretty much have to be trained or learn the process to build a facility capable of mass producing while keeping quality in check.


]

Unfortunately you may have laughed a bit prematurely 

Telling us there's ONLY 4 suppliers gives no indication of market saturation. For all we know, only 4 suppliers are needed to meet the demand. Also, giving us one example of how your shrimp friend is making a good living (what's a good living?) doesn't give much umpf to your argument.

But lets assume you're correct and take your word that the 4 suppliers and probably a handful more around the world can barely meet the demand of shrimp. How does that in any way tell you that this market is going to explode and becoming a mainstay like other aquarium markets (or submarkets...however you want to identify it) herre in the US?

Remember, its fairly easy to grow from 0 to something. Its exponentially tougher to move from fairly sized to dominant.

At the end of the day, all of this is conjecture. But my opinion is that the fw shrimp hobby will not become as popular as the most popular (by sales) segments of the aquatic hobby in the US. Unfortunately, being strongly passionate about shrimp hasn't been good enough to convince me otherwise.


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## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

dirtyhermit said:


> Just look at the latest F&Sred_mouth) catalog, suddenly lots of FW shrimp stuff & pics. It is getting more popular here & I too believe it will continue to do so. Maybe not quite to the scale of some countries but come on you're blind if you don't see it or maybe just don't want to...(maybe it's not "cool" to you anymore?)
> Fluval Ebi alone should be enough of a clue, I wonder how many they sold in the US or Canada in the last 3 months? Even if the other Fluval plant package is the obvious better deal lol why get a telescope net when you could get a CO2 to gas your shrimp instead?


l have to agree with you on that. l had F&S catalogs coming to my address for about half a year now and there has been some significant changes in the new stuff coming out.

Take a look at the fluval edge for example. In my personal experience it has increased the market for nanos here in the US. A lot of people can't afford a 120p or just rather keep it tiny/convenient and l gotta give it to fluval as for how their interests are. I think their listening to their consumers demand which is a very successful tactic for keeping a successful company. Now their move on to the ebi and flora which really surprised me especially offering co2 along with the tank. 

Anyways back on topic, I don't know breeders but i've heard Mr Yeh is good as well, there was this lady in taiwan but l forgot her name. l found her in a article discussing the life expectancy of kk.


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## jczernia (Apr 16, 2010)

I don't see why some one is not breeding shrimp on this scale in US.
If some one is doing this in Poland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4hn8vQSlgo


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## justin182 (Aug 19, 2009)

jczernia said:


> I don't see why some one is not breeding shrimp on this scale in US.
> If some one is doing this in Poland
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4hn8vQSlgo



Are you Polish? Great find and s/he got really nice shrimps too!


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## jczernia (Apr 16, 2010)

I am, and now I should think of moving back to Poland and move next door to this person 
I will try to contact them and see if they will ship to U.S. 
This is a link that they supply the shrimp as far as I know all of them are from Garnella breeder
http://www.garnella.pl/krewetki.htm


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

jczernia said:


> I don't see why some one is not breeding shrimp on this scale in US.
> If some one is doing this in Poland
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4hn8vQSlgo


One of the reasons americans aren't breeding shrimp on that scale is because we can't just drive to germany and pick up a bunch of high quality shrimp.


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## jczernia (Apr 16, 2010)

No comment


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Honestly, I think this whole shrimpin bidnez is blowing up... not just on this forum but everywhere else, even on the local level here in the Bay Area. Everybody and their mom talks about shrimp nowadays. Shoot, even got my wife is all hot n heavy bout these bad boys. After seeing her set up a few shrimp tanks, it seems easy enough that it's giving me the itch to start some breeding projects of my own... def not as large scale as DK (can't ever top Donna's skill level), but I can dream, right? 

For best US Shrimp Breeder, my hat definitely go off to DK for the best known US breeder. She's down to earth and never disrespectful towards anyone, I like her ALOT actually and thats not because I just want her shrimp either . It's just the truth!


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## aelysa (Oct 20, 2006)

Well, I'm hoping there will be more shrimp breeding going on here in the US. One of my importers from Thailand sent out a newsletter warning their customers of very high shipping prices to come due to higher fuel prices. Pretty terrible, since importing from overseas is expensive enough as it is.

I nominate the California Shrimp Mafia collective as the best shrimp breeders. You know whos you is.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

speedie408 said:


> Honestly, I this whole shrimpin bidnez is blowing up... not just on this forum but everywhere else, even on the local level here in the Bay Area. Everybody and their mom talks about shrimp nowadays.


 
Once you see them, it's kind of hard not too, LOL! I'm just getting back into the aquarium thing after 20+ years of not having one and I'm pretty much in love with CBS. I was gifted a few babies a month or so ago (gotta love SFBAAPS) and I'm having a blast watching them grow. So much so, that I think they're going to get their own tank rather than be put into the main tank as originally planned.


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## SHMaRiM (Apr 21, 2010)

I honestly wouldn't want the shrimp market to blow up here in the US. The fact that certain species are rare makes it fun for me. I like browsing every single website on the entire internet looking for the next candidate.

Plus the fact that certain species are rare makes it easier to sell them for high prices locally.

MONEY!


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## jczernia (Apr 16, 2010)

I think it should be affordable for every one it is a hobby not a job.
After some of the comments I feel like I should visit my family in Germany pick up some shrimp and have a free vacation.


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## SHMaRiM (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm just saying from a hobbyist standpoint, I like the high prices.

If everyone and their mom had shrimp I don't think I'd have shrimp keeping as a hobby of mine. I'm not one to follow major pop culture trends and when too many people have a certain thing it tends to lose it's cool-factor in my eyes.

For instance, I skipped right over ghost shrimp and RCS and went straight to higher grade CRS. Not only do they look cooler (IMO) but less people had higher grade CRS because of their price.

In all honesty it was kinda depressing walking into my LFS and seeing low grade CRS and RCS for $5/pop. They don't even mention anything about grade so anyone going in there not knowing anything probably doesn't care what grade they are and just wants mini white and red (and clear) shrimp.


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## justin182 (Aug 19, 2009)

20gnoob said:


> I'm just saying from a hobbyist standpoint, I like the high prices.
> 
> If everyone and their mom had shrimp I don't think I'd have shrimp keeping as a hobby of mine. I'm not one to follow major pop culture trends and when too many people have a certain thing it tends to lose it's cool-factor in my eyes.
> 
> ...



Haha, don't worry, it's the other people following you, not you following any other trend. 

Apple lowered the price of iPhone, MUCH LOWER than the original $500/$600 iPhone. MANY more people have been able or more willing to get an iPhone, and Apple ONLY earned more and more money. By the way, did those people who got the first iPhone resent and give up the iPhone since more people have it? No.

Same here, I believe selling a $5 per SSS CRS to 10 people net you more money than selling $30 per SSS CRS to 1 person. And in order for this hobby to grow, it gotta give the breeders more monetary rewards so that they are more willing to keep more tanks and to carry more shrimps. New color variations come from mutation which is not frequent, and the more tanks and shrimps you have, the more likely you will get a new color morph. So this will benefit the EXTREME hobbyists like you too. By the way, you got any Black Diamond?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

apple didn't lower the price of the iphone, at&t is paying the price of the phone and charging you exhorbant service contracts 

just like if someone paid me 2400 to maintain a shrimp tank for a year, I'd toss the shrimp in at half price *wink*


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## justin182 (Aug 19, 2009)

mordalphus said:


> apple didn't lower the price of the iphone, at&t is paying the price of the phone and charging you exhorbant service contracts
> 
> just like if someone paid me 2400 to maintain a shrimp tank for a year, I'd toss the shrimp in at half price *wink*



True, same logic here. Why did at&t and apple agree to slash the price of iphone? Both companies realized that by lowering the price, they could draw in a bigger mass of customers, and they could earn more that way. at&t charges the same price for the voice and data plan before and after the price drop. Smaller gain margin on a relative much larger customer base = more profit. Kinda like Toyota vs BMW, or other LUXURY automaker in terms of profit. 

Well, iPhone might not be the best example, but I used it to address the other member's comment. It is not the high price tag and the sense of exclusivity that draw iPhone customers. It is the perceived image of "cool", and functionality, and ease of use, and... etc that draw customers. WealthiER people will still buy it even after price drop. And more and more people can now jump on the iphone boat as well. Yes, there are SOME people who like to show off their wealth by bling-bling-ing the phone, gold, diamond and what not. A SSS CRS still look cool and attractive if it's $5 a pop, right? I would think so. I guess you can bling bling your CRS too.


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## jczernia (Apr 16, 2010)

That is a grate idea I will put red glitter on my A grade CRS and sell them for $50 each and call them bling bling CRS
I see your point if iphone is not the example then what happened to the prices of new LCD or plasma TVs why did they drop?


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

justin182 said:


> True, same logic here. Why did at&t and apple agree to slash the price of iphone? Both companies realized that by lowering the price, they could draw in a bigger mass of customers, and they could earn more that way. at&t charges the same price for the voice and data plan before and after the price drop. Smaller gain margin on a relative much larger customer base = more profit. Kinda like Toyota vs BMW, or other LUXURY automaker in terms of profit.


Uhhh, at&t dropped price on iPhone for the simple fact that iPhone users can now go to verizon as well. That was a strategic marketing plan to try and keep users with at&t from switching, to get new customers, or to get existing customers who are upgrading to renew their contract with a "cheaper" iPhone.  Apple had nothing to do with it. As a matter of fact, you only get the cheaper pricing if you sign a 2 year, or renew a 2 year contract. Otherwise, you still pay full retail price. It was trying to be competitive with iPhone users, because they had A LOT of complaints about their lack of good service. People were just WAITING to swap to verizon.


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## jczernia (Apr 16, 2010)

What about my Bling bling CRS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! any one interested before I invest in red glitter paint.


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## justin182 (Aug 19, 2009)

msnikkistar said:


> Uhhh, at&t dropped price on iPhone for the simple fact that iPhone users can now go to verizon as well. That was a strategic marketing plan to try and keep users with at&t from switching, to get new customers, or to get existing customers who are upgrading to renew their contract with a "cheaper" iPhone. Apple had nothing to do with it. As a matter of fact, you only get the cheaper pricing if you sign a 2 year, or renew a 2 year contract. Otherwise, you still pay full retail price. It was trying to be competitive with iPhone users, because they had A LOT of complaints about their lack of good service. People were just WAITING to swap to verizon.




Nono, I was referring to the price drop when the FIRST iphone came out -> iPhone, like more than 4 years ago. No competition from any other carrier back then. The price drop was merely to gain more and more customers, even though that would mean a smaller gain margin.

There is also NO price drop right now. But at&t does give some current iphone users free 1000 roll over minutes and the choice of an unlimited data plan (the data plan was either $15 for 200mb/month, or $25 for 2gb/month before) to keep current subscribers from switching to Verizon Wireless.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Plus, an iPhone is still 300 dollars if you buy it from apple. They didn't change their price at all, it's just at&t trying desperately to keep anyone from switching to verizon. AT&T still pays the full price of the phone to apple, but give the customer a discount. And sure they sell a lot, but they sold a lot at 500 dollars a phone too, and made 200 dollars more per phone. The reason they make so much money is because they make a great product that's easy to use, not because they sell it for cheap.

I think comparing CRS to electronics is a bad idea, especially since the price of manufacturing electronics goes down in time because technology becomes cheaper. Also every TV or cell phone is the same. With CRS, each shrimp is different, and due to the grading system, the range of grades on offspring will make one clutch worth 500 dollars, and the next clutch worth 50. Not to mention, you can make 500 iPhones in a day in a factory, whereas you can't 'make' shrimp, and the shrimp require a lot of maintenance. If you don't care what grade the shrimp you're buying are, yes... the price would come down dramatically... But what you'd get is clearish-red striped shrimp which would look not so beautiful.

At least that's what I think!


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

justin182 said:


> Nono, I was referring to the price drop when the FIRST iphone came out -> iPhone, like more than 4 years ago. No competition from any other carrier back. The price drop was merely to gain more and more customers, even though that would mean a smaller gain margin.
> 
> There is also NO price drop right now. But at&t does give some current iphone users free 1000 roll over minutes and the choice of an unlimited data plan (the data plan was either $15 for 200mb/month, or $25 for 2gb/month before) to keep current subscriber from switching to Verizon Wireless.


Ah gotcha. That was another strategic move. They wanted the cheap customers like me, who had an upgrade option to swap over to iPhone when they renewed. I didn't get sucked into that, and I'm not. lol


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## justin182 (Aug 19, 2009)

mordalphus said:


> Plus, an iPhone is still 300 dollars if you buy it from apple. They didn't change their price at all, it's just at&t trying desperately to keep anyone from switching to verizon. AT&T still pays the full price of the phone to apple, but give the customer a discount. And sure they sell a lot, but they sold a lot at 500 dollars a phone too, and made 200 dollars more per phone. The reason they make so much money is because they make a great product that's easy to use, not because they sell it for cheap.
> 
> I think comparing CRS to electronics is a bad idea, especially since the price of manufacturing electronics goes down in time because technology becomes cheaper. Also every TV or cell phone is the same. With CRS, each shrimp is different, and due to the grading system, the range of grades on offspring will make one clutch worth 500 dollars, and the next clutch worth 50. Not to mention, you can make 500 iPhones in a day in a factory, whereas you can't 'make' shrimp, and the shrimp require a lot of maintenance. If you don't care what grade the shrimp you're buying are, yes... the price would come down dramatically... But what you'd get is clearish-red striped shrimp which would look not so beautiful.
> 
> At least that's what I think!



Haha, let's try not to argue on why they lower the price of the iphone. It was a mere example of lowering the price to gain a MUCH larger customer base AND earn more  If the iphone is still $500/$600, I can assure you that they won't be selling as many as now, and earn as much as now, period. And I'm sure at&t did that because they knew they could earn more money by selling more service to more people with a smaller margin, and they did (just google the quarterly reports from both companies from then to now). While that might not be the SOLE reason, a lower price was DEFINITELY one of the reasons that has attracted a MUCH LARGER customer interest for MORE profit. Hack, Lamborghini is REALLY REALLY NICE too, I mean, it's SUPER SUPER NICE. But I will not be able to afford one in the foreseeable future, which is sad :frown:

Ok, no more comparison to iphone now. For shrimp, yes, you, me, he, she, and whoever else who paid X amount of money to get the shrimps, bred them, and tried to sell them on here, we all want to sell them for as high as we can. Hack, I ain't selling my SSS CRS for less then $25 per. I might have a tank or two of SSS and I can sell what, 100 shrimp a month (if I really have a lot)? But you need to understand that we are looking at a relatively small base here. And people who come to the shrimps forum site to buy shrimps are definitely some of the most dedicated shrimp hobbyist. Some of them can even pay a large sum of money on one shrimp. But just look at my original post again, I was talking about MASS Production Shrimp Breeder. And to sell many many more shrimps, you need many many more customers, and the only way to do this is to sell the more appealing SS/SSS CRS at a lower price and have them available in every LFS. Well, not trying to argue, that's just my opinion :icon_cool. Peace out, my friends !


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

20gnoob said:


> I'm just saying from a hobbyist standpoint, I like the high prices.
> 
> If everyone and their mom had shrimp I don't think I'd have shrimp keeping as a hobby of mine. I'm not one to follow major pop culture trends and when too many people have a certain thing it tends to lose it's cool-factor in my eyes.


This is why I don't drive a car. Seems like just about everyone drives, from punk teenagers to elderly grandmothers. You can't get much less cool than that. Instead I walk. It might take 2 hours to walk to work, but I don't wan't to look like all those lame drivers.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

jczernia said:


> What about my Bling bling CRS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! any one interested before I invest in red glitter paint.


Sign me up, dude. :hihi:


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## sjuapseorn (Feb 17, 2011)

As I'm totally new to shrimp... I'm completely lost on the S, SS, SSS grade ratings of the shrimp.

for a beginner (like me) where is the best place to buy shrimp?? I can't see paying 25$ a shrimp when I'm likely to kill them on my 1st attempt at keeping them..
I hate to sound ignorant but honestly I am 99% lost, but hopefully after alot of careful reading and trial and error I'll be a shrimp guru too


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I'd look on aquabid for some C, B or A grade CRS, they will be much cheaper than S, SS or SSS shrimp. So that way when you kill them the first few times, you're only out 3 dollars a shrimp instead of 5-25 dollars a shrimp


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

there is a demand, but only within the hobbyists.

on the broad scale, US Demand is not big enough to support a domestic massive breeder.

If someone can breed the shrimp and selling them to the point that makes it a job for living, then the demand is kinda high, but more than likely he will be out competed by the breeders from other countries.

I dont' see a lot of hobbyists breed shrimps on a mass scale nor have the knowledge base to improve the quality.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

And be realistic, you can pay $5+ for a piece of shrimp, but how about others? how many of your neighbors? your co-workers? or your fellow classmates are willing to take that shrimp home and pay for it?

shrimp keepers that willing to pay for $5+ per pop.
shrimp keepers
aquarium fish tank owners
pet owners
general population.

someone can build a pyramid and see where you at.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Nonsense. 

Shrimp have a novelty level to them that tons of people would pounce on if they had the opportunity. The simply do not know of the options. I think there is plenty of room for a few larger scale breeders. There are LOADS of large scale fish farms in the US, and even a small percentage of that market could be tapped by shrimp breeders.

Just because you don't have them locally now doesn't mean they wouldn't sell. Most LFS sell fish they don't even know the proper identification of, let alone care.... Because shrimp can be kept in very small aquariums, it opens up even more market.

When I started providing my LFS with RCS, they became more and more interested in other options. Before I knew it, they were carrying Yellows, Snowballs, etc. When I tapered back production it stopped them carrying them, and they would love to have them again if they had a consistent source.

If they can sell 15x $75 discus every week and 300 $3 cardinals.... I think that the average LFS could consume a fair amount of lower grade shrimp. 

THey sold RCS for 5 bucks each... Yellows for 9... 


Most LFS sell out of the more expensive items quicker. Sure, they purchase less, but they also sell quickly because more expensive means better, in consumers eyes. 

Someone told me I couldn't make any money selling aquarium fertilizer, either. That Pfertz and GLA and aquariumfertilizer.com had saturated the market.... That I'd never make my investment back. 

The only thing stopping a large scale breeder from success is the initial investment and connections. Get yourself connected so that you would be through a primary wholesaler and you are done. No problem. No back end. Less overhead. No customers to deal with.

All of my neighbors have things that I would never spend money on...


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

I am talking about the US demand for high grade CRS,
as for RCS, 1 cent per shrimp is listed, on the menu of Asia exporters.

and some of the asia exporter don't have them because the profit margin is extremely low on RCS.
imagine this, with a large population of RCS in a 30G, every month you can have over one thousand ready for sale.

please check the wholesale list from aquarium asia exporters, you will know what I am talking about, example, zebra danio is around 5 cents each.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

If people will spend 5 bucks for RCS they will spend 10 for CRS. People will pay what you tell them to pay. It really is that simple. If it looks and feels like a luxury, people will go out of their way to buy them. 

If the average LFS can sell the rest of their marked up livestock, they will be able to sell Shrimp. The market isn't their because the consumer doesn't know it is an option. When they know, they will buy.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

BettaTail, you're in SF and you're not seeing the market for shrimp? Honestly? The whole Bay Area is shrimp mad.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

you got to understand what is market demand, your willingness to pay for $5+ per shrimp only apply to a very limited population.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Betta Maniac said:


> BettaTail, you're in SF and you're not seeing the market for shrimp? Honestly? The whole Bay Area is shrimp mad.


 you are right, only limited to the people that love shrimps.

but don't get me wrong, I love shrimps too.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

it is not like beef, you lower the price everyone buy it, but you rise the price that will be less people buy it, but the market for beef is based on the overall population, even less people buy it, there is still be profit that can support the farms and so.
The market of CRS in US is limited base on the limited population, and the profit from this market is not big enough to support domestic massive production.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Bettatail said:


> I am talking about the US demand for high grade CRS,
> as for RCS, 1 cent per shrimp is listed, on the menu of Asia exporters.
> 
> and some of the asia exporter don't have them because the profit margin is extremely low on RCS.
> ...


Not only is the profit margin low on RCS, the freight cost of importing them would far outweigh their initial cost. 



Bettatail said:


> it is not like beef, you lower the price everyone buy it, but you rise the price that will be less people buy it, but the market for beef is based on the overall population, even less people buy it, there is still be profit that can support the farms and so.
> The market of CRS in US is limited base on the limited population, and the profit from this market is not big enough to support domestic massive production.


I have to disagree here. I think that if done correctly with the proper capital investment in supplies and broodstock, there's a handsome profit to be made until the market becomes saturated. But as part of the business plan, provisions have to be made for either an exit strategy or a strategy to invest some of the profit into breeding newer shrimp.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

epicfish said:


> I have to disagree here. I think that if done correctly with the proper capital investment in supplies and broodstock, there's a handsome profit to be made until the market becomes saturated. But as part of the business plan, provisions have to be made for either an exit strategy or a strategy to invest some of the profit into breeding newer shrimp.


 true, but remeber no one can get fat because the pie is too small to share, no one gets a big piece. 
so hobbyists are still be hobbyists, evolution of becoming a massive breeder and do it for living is more than likely not.

edit: what I said not limited to global market, someone has the resources needs to aim high, go global.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Bettatail said:


> you got to understand what is market demand, your willingness to pay for $5+ per shrimp only apply to a very limited population.


But how can you even remotely pretend that you know what this demand level is? Have you done some consumer polling or research to indicate what demand is?

Based on experience in the aquarium trade, I would suspect that it would not be particularly difficult to move the product.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

epicfish said:


> I have to disagree here. I think that if done correctly with the proper capital investment in supplies and broodstock, there's a handsome profit to be made until the market becomes saturated. But as part of the business plan, provisions have to be made for either an exit strategy or a strategy to invest some of the profit into breeding newer shrimp.





Bettatail said:


> true, but remeber no one can get fat because the pie is too small to share, no one gets a big piece.
> so hobbyists are still be hobbyists, evolution of becoming a massive breeder and do it for living is more than likely not.


Like I stated before, if someone were to make the proper investment in supplies and broodstock, the breeding operation would cease to be at the hobbyist level and starts to encroach on a large-scale business operation that has to be taken seriously. And by seriously, I don't mean only in terms of husbandry, but also in terms of optimization of breeding, marketing, and planned expansion of the business.

I think the original question of the OP intended "best breeders" to mean those who could produce quality shrimp, but at the same time, push the genetic limits of the next "best", albeit severely recessive, shrimp.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Bettatail said:


> true, but remeber no one can get fat because the pie is too small to share, no one gets a big piece.
> so hobbyists are still be hobbyists, evolution of becoming a massive breeder and do it for living is more than likely not.


again... How do you have any information to prove this. As things like the Fluval line become main stream(target at shrimp... too) the hobby is going to increase faster and larger. 

If pink glofish and tattooed fish can sell mainstream, very attractive shrimp will have no trouble at all.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

over_stocked said:


> again... How do you have any information to prove this. As things like the Fluval line become main stream(target at shrimp... too) the hobby is going to increase faster and larger.
> 
> If pink glofish and tattooed fish can sell mainstream, very attractive shrimp will have no trouble at all.


 market has the ablity to adjust itself, do you see any full fledge comercial CRS breeder in the US that supply the domestic market?


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

over_stocked said:


> But how can you even remotely pretend that you know what this demand level is? Have you done some consumer polling or research to indicate what demand is?
> 
> Based on experience in the aquarium trade, I would suspect that it would not be particularly difficult to move the product.


Agreed.

Seeing the explosive growth of the number of posts in the "Shrimp & Other Invertebrates" subforum as well as the growth of other shrimp keeping forums leads me to believe that the number of shrimp keepers in the United States is on an inevitable climb, much like that of Asia in Europe a few years back. The trend is apparent.

There will always be serious collectors who don't mind spending, what others' may think is a ridiculous sum of money, on their hobby. Just look at the coral market. Why is the ornamental shrimp any different? You may argue the number of reefers far outweigh the number of shrimp keepers, but you also have to consider that the supply of coral undoubtedly surpasses the supply of shrimp.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

epicfish said:


> Like I stated before, if someone were to make the proper investment in supplies and broodstock, the breeding operation would cease to be at the hobbyist level and starts to encroach on a large-scale business operation that has to be taken seriously. And by seriously, I don't mean only in terms of husbandry, but also in terms of optimization of breeding, marketing, and planned expansion of the business.
> 
> I think the original question of the OP intended "best breeders" to mean those who could produce quality shrimp, but at the same time, push the genetic limits of the next "best", albeit severely recessive, shrimp.


I think you are talking about the micro here
sorry we are all off topic.:drool:


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Bettatail said:


> I think you are talking about the micro here
> sorry we are all off topic.:drool:


What I'm talking about is far from micro.

I started out as a hobbyist and then turned into a FW plant/fish distributor for a while. Had massive tank racks for shrimp breeding and QTing fish and invertebrates, etc...dipped into the coral market for a while until school took over my life.

I'm not saying that starting a commercial shrimp breeding operation would be easy or cheap, but if done properly, could yield rewarding dividends. Shrimp -- especially higher quality ones -- don't breed readily and cannot be wild caught. That's the biggest disadvantage in terms of profitability specifically in the shrimp market: the amount of time required for breeding. That's why a large percentage of the capital must be invested in obtaining broodstock. The more mature shrimp you have, the faster you can produce offspring.

That's also why there's a lag in the commercialization of shrimp breeding operations. You can always import wild caught fish and corals. International, as well as domestic, plant farms can mass produce plants quickly and easily with little overhead. Shrimp require the time and patience.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

One point that people continually leave out of this discussion is that crs are significantly more difficult to both keep and breed than rcs. 

Anyone can keep rcs alive and breed them; even in a community tank. This fact makes them attractive to lfs.

A very small percentage of people manage to both keep crs alive and breed them on their first attempt. And no one, to my knowledge, has had much luck in a community tank. This fact makes crs very unattractive to lfs. 

I think if you're interested in breeding shrimp for profit on a larger scale than the average hobbyist, you have to ask yourself how many people are willing to:

1. Pay a lot of money for shrimp
2. Set up a tank exclusively for shrimp
3. Lose a significant portion of them before they reproduce
4. Follow rather strict care guidelines
5. Purchase a lot of specialty products, an ro unit, aquasoil, etc

After you have pondered the above, why don't you go to your local bank and ask them for a business loan to start your enterprise? In fact, why don't you print out the favorable responses to this thread so that you can show the bank's employees what the so called 'experts' think?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

snausage said:


> 1. Pay a lot of money for shrimp
> 2. Set up a tank exclusively for shrimp
> 3. Lose a significant portion of them before they reproduce
> 4. Follow rather strict care guidelines
> 5. Purchase a lot of specialty products, an ro unit, aquasoil, etc


IMO those are very valid points, most especially in the current economy. I'm not saying that it would be impossible to set up a nice profitable small business, but the scale of that business is going to be very limited by things outside of an owner/breeders' control, especially when realizing that there is a *very* specific subset of hobbyists who are going to be interested and have the disposable income to go after high end shrimp. I get several industry-related magazines & reports, and the pet industry as a whole has taken a tremendous dive over the past several years, and my own personal assessment is that it's not going to recover in the very near future.




As a total sidenote- I also want to commend all of you who have been working hard to keep this debate civil. :thumbsup:


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

epicfish said:


> What I'm talking about is far from micro.
> 
> I started out as a hobbyist and then turned into a FW plant/fish distributor for a while. Had massive tank racks for shrimp breeding and QTing fish and invertebrates, etc...dipped into the coral market for a while until school took over my life.
> 
> ...


 you still don't get me...
well, macro is what I am talking about. the shrimps lover population is too small in the US to sustain a large scale supply chain, of course, one end of the chain is comercial CRS farm/breeders.
if the market is big enough, more than likely the supply point of that chain is somewhere in South Asia, resources wise, they can supply cheaper shrimps, and the market there is full fledged.

dont' tell me how hard to raise high grade CRS, if profit is expected, some one else will do better than you...


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

there is one thing I want to make it clear, when we talk about the possiblity of domestic comercial CRS breeder/farms. you have to understand it is not about how much you love your shrimps and how much you are into this hobby.
:icon_idea


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

we, hobbyists, love the shrimps and breed them, not for the purpose of profit, but once in a while it is not bad to have some extra money come in to fuel the hobby. Some one can even go further, to become a comercial breeder and making profit, but before taking this step he has to understand profit is the end goal but not how well he wants his shrimps to be, and there must be a market that is big enough to sustain his business and provide him the profit.

So far, I don't see the domestic demand and the market for CRS are big enough to sustain large scale commerical operation.

I buy shrimps from fellow hobbyists and sell shrimps to them, but non of us do this for a living.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Bettatail said:


> you still don't get me...
> well, macro is what I am talking about. the shrimps lover population is too small in the US to sustain a large scale supply chain, of course, one end of the chain is comercial CRS farm/breeders.
> if the market is big enough, more than likely the supply point of that chain is somewhere in South Asia, resources wise, they can supply cheaper shrimps, and the market there is full fledged.


Please provide solid research to say there isn't enough to sustain a breeder here. Until you have made a marketing research, this is just your opinion, just as it is our opinion that there is. However, I will break down why I believe there is. 1) The US consumer base buys just to buy. Doesn't matter if it is an infomercial product, or shrimp. There will always be some sort of customer base to pull in., 2) There are a lot of wealthier individuals that acquire the "expensive" stuff to reflect their status. and 3) The sheer novelty of being able to keep shrimp, once introduced to the public more widely, will interest a whole new level of customers.

As for importing overseas, yes it is cheap. But you fail to realize in order to get those "cheap" prices, you will need port to port shipping, customs clearance, permits from F&WL and a host of other issues such as DOA. Also, DOA is not covered by the wholesaler either. That comes out of your pocket. With all that, it actually increases the pricing of the shrimp considerably.



Bettatail said:


> we, hobbyists, love the shrimps and breed them, not for the purpose of profit, but once in a while it is not bad to have some extra money come in to fuel the hobby. Some one can even go further, to become a comercial breeder and making profit, but before taking this step he has to understand profit is the end goal but not how well he wants his shrimps to be, and there must be a market that is big enough to sustain his business and provide him the profit.


If a US breeder didn't care, and consistently didn't maintain their tanks, they could have potential massive die offs. Thus, hurting his/her profits. Most of the mass breeding set ups require DAILY maintenance. Don't make assumptions that just because they are mass breeders they don't care. Matter of fact, my supplier is a mass breeder who WILL not sell to anyone who doesn't know what they are doing, or isn't willing to learn how to care for their purchase. 



Bettatail said:


> So far, I don't see the domestic demand and the market for CRS are big enough to sustain large scale commerical operation.


Again, have you don't marketing research to make this generalized statement? Cause I have orders for shrimp coming in everyday, to the point where there are times I don't even have the stock available. Albeit, not the higher priced shrimp like BKK, but CRS/CBS is almost everyday.



Bettatail said:


> I buy shrimps from fellow hobbyists and sell shrimps to them, but non of us do this for a living.


Really? Again, an assumption. I turned MY hobby of keeping and loving shrimp into my full time business and job. Another assumption there.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

msnikkistar said:


> Really? Again, an assumption. I turned MY hobby of keeping and loving shrimp into my full time business and job. Another assumption there.


 making profit? well, I am wrong then.
will buy shrimps from you:hihi:


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Bettatail said:


> making profit? well, I am wrong then.
> will buy shrimps from you:hihi:



Yes, I am. I don't need to boast about what I do and do not make. It is not something that I feel should be discussed in a public forum.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

I've given away dozens of CRS now and haven't made any money in the process. I am considering tweaking my business model a lil' bit since my current one is probably not sustainable.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

Bettatail said:


> you still don't get me...
> well, macro is what I am talking about. the shrimps lover population is too small in the US to sustain a large scale supply chain, of course, one end of the chain is comercial CRS farm/breeders.
> 
> dont' tell me how hard to raise high grade CRS, if profit is expected, some one else will do better than you...


I agree. For a little more macro economic perspective, I would like to point out that the American economy has just recently experienced the worst recession in history. Likewise, some of the countries where the shrimp hobby is extremely popular, like Germany, Singapore and Japan, have shown signs of healthy and sustainable economic growth. These facts probably go a long way in explaining why there is a healthy market for BKK, blue bolts, etc. in the latter countries and not in the US.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Japan has actually been mired in a recession for over a decade now.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

EKLiu said:


> Japan has actually been mired in a recession for over a decade now.


Their economy has improved drastically within the past two years.


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## justin182 (Aug 19, 2009)

LOL.. let's get some economy discussion going!


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

So... bottom line: You _could _breed fancy shrimp large-scale in the USA and then sell them to pet stores, but it would take a lot of money, work, and advertising.

What else is new in business?

Is there a market large enough to sustain a wholesale breeder? I don't know. I don't think anyone else on this forum knows, either. Market research would have to answer that question.

So, since assuming there is no market is no fun, let's assume that there is a market, or at least, that a market could be created. What would a wholesale breeder in the USA have to do to supply that market?

Well, you'd need a place to breed, raise, and package the shrimp. Your garage will not work. A large facility with ponds or large shallow tanks would be best. 

You would need to get good broodstock from several different sources. You also would need to keep several different lines for each species and cross them every few generations to limit inbreeding depression. 

You would need a good water supply and a cheap food supply. You would need to hire people to help with cleaning the tanks, feeding the shrimp, maintaining the facility, answering company email and phone calls, inspecting the shrimp for disease and quality, transferring the shrimp from tank to tank, packing the shrimp for shipment, etc.

You probably would want to join up with a company that makes aquariums and aquarium supplies and work with them to encourage pet stores to carry shrimp-friendly dry stock. Maybe write a few simple books to encourage people to try shrimp keeping. 

Oh, and insurance. Insurance is very important. 

In the end, it would probably look less like this:









...and more like this:









Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or if I've missed something. Believe me, I would love to be wrong about this. But I've put a lot of thought into how to make a career out of fish breeding for the general public, and this seems to be the only way to do it.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

i really dont' want to discourage anyone want to give it a shot.
put aside the fact that it is a market based on limited potential customers(), the whole sale price is about a quarter to half of the store price. for fragile items, even less. so the profit from per shrimp is realy realy MICRO for the breeder.

Mass production is still possible, if the market can absorb all the shrimps produced and the profit build up by quantity. 

some ppl have the resources can go a little bit further, breed some high quality shrimps and sell to other hobbyists, but they are still hobbyists because they like what they are doing and understand DONT DO THIS FOR A LIVING.

AZinvert
planetinvert
shrimpfarm
...

who is the next?


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Fishly said:


> So... bottom line: You _could _breed fancy shrimp large-scale in the USA and then sell them to pet stores, but it would take a lot of money, work, and advertising.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

I don't see why anyone would even want to sell shrimp at low prices to pet stores, unless you had a big customer that would order a bunch at one time. There is plenty of profit to be made by selling directly to individuals.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

EKLiu said:


> I don't see why anyone would even want to sell shrimp at low prices to pet stores, unless you had a big customer that would order a bunch at one time. There is plenty of profit to be made by selling directly to individuals.


Quantity. Selling 10,000 shrimp for .50 cents is a lot more money than 200 for 2 dollars. Scale is everything. Plus, as a "farmer" you sell to the wholesaler who sells to the pet shops. This means you don't have to do any retail crap, no customer service, etc. 




Fishly said:


> So... bottom line: You _could _breed fancy shrimp large-scale in the USA and then sell them to pet stores, but it would take a lot of money, work, and advertising.
> 
> What else is new in business?
> 
> ...


The nature of shrimp would lead to much smaller than the huge tanks pictured. 100 gallon tubs is what I am using right now. For super high quality strains, a 10,000 gallon tank makes it impossible. LOTS of smallish tanks makes it very manageable. 

IF all they want to do is quantity, the tubs and stock tanks work well.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

over_stocked said:


> Quantity. Selling 10,000 shrimp for .50 cents is a lot more money than 200 for 2 dollars. Scale is everything. Plus, as a "farmer" you sell to the wholesaler who sells to the pet shops. This means you don't have to do any retail crap, no customer service, etc.


What kind of setup would it take to crank out thousands of CRS to satisfy the wholesalers?

A person selling at the hobbyist level is making a huge profit margin and has a relatively minimal investment.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

Bettatail said:


> where is this picture from?
> looks like the tanks I got for free- the local reptile store gave away 50+ fish breeder tanks that someone donated, and I took three tanks, same 30G breeder tanks and V# marking on the upper edge of the tank.
> 
> Don't know the story behind these tanks though.


I got the picture from here:
http://www.tfhmagazine.com/blogs/2009/12/30/preparing-the-fishroom/



EKLiu said:


> I don't see why anyone would even want to sell shrimp at low prices to pet stores, unless you had a big customer that would order a bunch at one time. There is plenty of profit to be made by selling directly to individuals.


I like the idea of selling to the general public because it spreads the hobby. It gives you a chance to teach people, as opposed to just selling your stock. 



over_stocked said:


> The nature of shrimp would lead to much smaller than the huge tanks pictured. 100 gallon tubs is what I am using right now. For super high quality strains, a 10,000 gallon tank makes it impossible. LOTS of smallish tanks makes it very manageable.


I was trying to make the point that breeding wholesale is a very big job. But you're right: smaller tanks would work better for selective breeding. Just how many tanks would you estimate needing for each species? 

One of the issues with wholesalers is that they seem to settle for just maintaining their stock, not improving it. I don't know how well it would work if you tried to breed wholesale with a show breeder's mindset. If you're breeding for profit, your primary goal has to be profit. Improving the shrimp would always have to be secondary.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you could offer just one species. You would need to offer several if you wanted to sell to a lot of stores. One store may buy only cherry shrimp, but another may buy black bee shrimp. Dedicating an entire farm to crystal reds wouldn't get you nearly as many customers as a multi-species farm.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

EKLiu said:


> What kind of setup would it take to crank out thousands of CRS to satisfy the wholesalers?
> .


 no matter, the market is not be able to consume the thousands of high grade $5+ CRS in short period of time, or you can sell them at the feeder shrimp price.



EKLiu said:


> A person selling at the hobbyist level is making a huge profit margin and has a relatively minimal investment.


 Huge profit margin is not huge profit, I can be a professional full time shrimp breeder if I can sell more than 40 $5+ shrimps each day. but the bottomline is at least 40 shrimps or I will do this as secondary.
still be the same question, 
planetinvert
shrimpfarm
AZinvert
...
what you learn from them?


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Bettatail said:


> no matter, the market is not be able to consume the thousands of high grade $5+ CRS in short period of time, or you can sell them at the feeder shrimp price.


Of course this stuff matters. Profit margins and return on investment are very important parts of a successful business strategy. Nobody is going to invest 5 or 6 figures into a shrimp farm if the profit is only 7 cents per shrimp.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

EKLiu said:


> Of course this stuff matters. Profit margins and return on investment are very important parts of a successful business strategy. Nobody is going to invest 5 or 6 figures into a shrimp farm if the profit is only 7 cents per shrimp.


Yes, it matters only if the market can absorb the product you provide, the potential customers for $5+ high grade CRS is limited in the US unless you sell them at feeder shrimp price.
A large business installtion to mass produce high grade CRS to supply the US market is an automatic failure


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

At this point I am actually amused by the random speculation you continue to offer. Without any market research you've decided that based on your zero commercial breeder experience it is an absolute failure. 

Random and arbitrary observations based on no experience or research crack me up.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Well, common sense go in first, please give me some data or example to prove I am wrong.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Remember,what we are talking about here it is not how much you love your shrimp.
There are some hobbyists in SF bay area breed high grade CRS
and pretty much satisfy local demand. THEY ARE DOING THIS AS A HOBBY, AND SELL SHRIMPS TO OFFLOAD THEIR EXPENSES BUT NOT MAKING PROFIT OR DOING THIS AS A MEAN OF LIVING.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Most anyone who is selling CRS that hatched in their tank is making a profit. It doesn't cost much money to get into shrimp breeding at the hobbyist level.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

What is PROFIT?
the money you earn from selling shrimp is profit? put aside the fixed assets and operational expenses(cost), how many hours you put on your shrmps everyday? Your WORK/Labor has money value if you want the final product from your work to realize its market value in terms of dollars or exchange of other goods or services.

so you still think the money from selling shrimp is profit?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Yup. I suggest you wait and see rather than speculate on something you have no idea about.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

over_stocked said:


> Yup. I suggest you wait and see rather than speculate on something you have no idea about.


 Takes time, and long time. this high grade CRS market and number of potential customers in the US is slowly growing, when large amount of high grade CRS can be consumed by US customers, more than likely the farms/mass breeders will be somewhere in Southern Asia in terms of lower operational/Labor costs.

And actually it is not hard to breed high grade CRS, no mass breeding is only because market demand is low. Think about how hard to breed the endanger Roseline shark. Only because it is highly demanded fish and profit from mass breeding and selling them is high, fish farms in india sucessfully breed them and mass produce to supply the markets all around the world.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Bettatail said:


> What is PROFIT?
> the money you earn from selling shrimp is profit? put aside the fixed assets and operational expenses(cost), how many hours you put on your shrmps everyday? Your WORK/Labor has money value if you want the final product from your work to realize its market value in terms of dollars or exchange of other goods or services.
> 
> so you still think the money from selling shrimp is profit?


Absolutely.

My shrimp tanks (CRS and OEBT) barely require any daily maintenance. I spend more time admiring them than actually doing any work on the tanks. Topping off the tank with water is about a 2 minute job and is only done every other day. Feeding the shrimp takes only a few minutes as well. The only maintenance is keeping the plants pruned and changing the prefilter sponge on the intake of the Eheim. I think the total time for all that stuff per moth is 3-4 hours at best. And its not like I am taking time off work and not getting paid to do that stuff. I think most of the "work" of selling shrimp is bagging them and driving to the post office to ship them.

Fixed assets? LOL. Its not like you have to take out a bank loan to buy a couple of aquariums. My mass breeding CRS tank is a GLA 25 gallon cube. I think that the entire setup (Aquasoil, Eheim Eco, light, heater, etc) cost less than 1 BKK. Expenses like water, electricity, and shrimp food are pretty negligible, under $20/month.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

EKLiu said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> My shrimp tanks (CRS and OEBT) barely require any daily maintenance. I spend more time admiring them than actually doing any work on the tanks. Topping off the tank with water is about a 2 minute job and is only done every other day. Feeding the shrimp takes only a few minutes as well. The only maintenance is keeping the plants pruned and changing the prefilter sponge on the intake of the Eheim. I think the total time for all that stuff per moth is 3-4 hours at best. And its not like I am taking time off work and not getting paid to do that stuff. I think most of the "work" of selling shrimp is bagging them and driving to the post office to ship them.
> 
> Fixed assets? LOL. Its not like you have to take out a bank loan to buy a couple of aquariums. My mass breeding CRS tank is a GLA 25 gallon cube. I think that the entire setup (Aquasoil, Eheim Eco, light, heater, etc) cost less than 1 BKK. Expenses like water, electricity, and shrimp food are pretty negligible, under $20/month.


Well, I wish it was that simple.
are you paying the rent? mortgage? to host the shrimp tank? and don't forget the time you spent to learn to take care of your shrimp and the time you spend here, internet service bill, so you have the service to get on this website and selling shrimps online, the money to pay for the computer that you use to do anything shrimp related, and it takes time to find the right packaging materials and pay for it, right? also, the money to buy the food to keep you alive in those specific hours you are doing anything shrimps related is also expenses.


if take away all expenses, you still have left from selling shrimps, how much? do you think you can maximize this "profit" by doing it full time, and can be fed and feed well from the money you make?

don't want to use that word: freeloader 


woohoo, hit 100 after two years in this forum, and thank you so much keeping me repeating myself..


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

I live in a lovely house. That makes no difference though because even if I did not raise shrimp, I would still need to live in a house. Where else would I keep my dirt bike? I don't think anyone here is has bought a house just for their shrimp.

I have no plans to make a living selling shrimp. I doubt I could make more selling shrimp than my regular job.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Bettatail said:


> What is PROFIT?
> the money you earn from selling shrimp is profit? put aside the fixed assets and operational expenses(cost), how many hours you put on your shrmps everyday? Your WORK/Labor has money value if you want the final product from your work to realize its market value in terms of dollars or exchange of other goods or services.
> 
> so you still think the money from selling shrimp is profit?


Like Ekiu has stated, I spend a total of maybe 3-4 hours a month on my shrimp tanks in upkeep, that is all 4 of them.

And yes, I do think it is profit from selling shrimp. I am not about to go in the red in this bad of an economy and risk my son's future in opening something that is not profitable in the first place. 



Bettatail said:


> Well, I wish it was that simple.
> are you paying the rent? mortgage? to host the shrimp tank? and don't forget the time you spent to learn to take care of your shrimp and the time you spend here, it is all about your shrimps.
> if take away all expenses, you still have left from selling shrimps, how much? do you think you can maximize this "profit" by doing it full time, and can be fed and feed well from the money you make?
> 
> you are just a freeloader from your parents.


I am not sure what being a "freeloader" has ANYTHING to do with this argument. And I personally found that comment offensive and rude.

I pay rent, and I am able to use the "space" I use as inventory and my tanks as tax write-offs. This includes electricity, internet, all equipment, the percentage of space in my home I use for business, postage, food, and any overhead I must use for my business. So why should I calculate that into my profit margin as it is already written off of my taxes and helps increase my refund? Even if I were not to write them off, I am still making enough profit to sustain a full time living off of doing so, which enables me luxuries, savings for my son's college, a monthly "paycheck", and to continue to grow my business. Like I said before, I will not go into detail about my profit margin on a public forum. But even when I obtain a house for living and to enable me to increase the size I have to hold tanks, I will be writing off the same things as business expenses.

To quite honest with you, I am not quite sure you have all the facts to argue so adamantly in the negative. It sounds more like you are a "black and white" type of person, making an assumption on a subject, when you do not have the full facts.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

I wish I was a freeloader. Then I could spend the mortgage payment money on some BKKs.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

EKLiu said:


> I wish I was a freeloader. Then I could spend the mortgage payment money on some BKKs.


I wish too, so I could get a ton more. LOL


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## familyman03 (Jun 16, 2010)

if you are a hobbyist "mass breeding" to sell to other hobbyist, more than likely the room used to raise the shrimp for selling would be taken up y them anyways and you would still have the other cost. I have never sold any fish and currently am running about two hundred gallons tanks. If I could sell shrimp to the general hobbyist and make money I would defenantly consider it pure profit at the price people get for many of the higher end shrimp and turn around and put maybe 5-10% of that back into the hobby to continue supplying the demand for them.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Stay on topic guys, no need to bring on insults. It really doesn't help your argument when you go the personal route.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

Here is a video of a commercial crs breeding operation (dialogue in german):

http://www.aquanet.tv/Video/230-die-...-1000-aquarien

This facility houses an approximate 350,000 bee shrimp, including bkk, blue bolt etc.

One employee's only responsibility is selecting shrimp to cull/or start new breeding colonies. 

If you care to watch the video, you can see that this is not some rinky-dink type of operation someone could run on a part time basis. If you're interested in getting into this business, you'd better be able to compete with the likes of Mr. Yeh et al. As bettatail mentioned, if the demand for shrimp in the US increases, I wouldn't be surprised if an operation of this scale immediately gobbled up a huge share of the market by exporting their shrimp at an extremely cheap price.


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## oblongshrimp (Jul 26, 2006)

Bettatail,

The problem with the people who have tried it before (Planet Inverts, AZ Inverts, The Shrimp Tank) was never demand for their products, it was that they were not able to keep up their supply. Now if you set up a giant warehouse it could switch to a demand issue but no one has gotten to that point yet so you can't really say where it is at.


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## EKLiu (Jan 14, 2010)

Seeing that video makes me think that even if someone did have the money, they would not have the shrimp knowledge required to run a massive shrimp farm.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

EKLiu said:


> Seeing that video makes me think that even if someone did have the money, they would not have the shrimp knowledge required to run a massive shrimp farm.


WHY? That makes little sense. 90% of shrimp keeping and breeding is the upfront cost. After that, going slow and steady to be safe is essential. 

Almost all of the basic info needed to breed shrimp can be found through some simple searching. Experience brings the rest. 

Figuring out what breeds best in your water, how to condition water to breed what you want, and finding quality stock are the important parts. 

Would I recommend someone with no shrimp keeping experience to jump in and do this? Nope. But do I think someone with the means could make this work? You bet your arse.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

EKLiu said:


> Seeing that video makes me think that even if someone did have the money, they would not have the shrimp knowledge required to run a massive shrimp farm.


I need to win the lottery and partner up with msnikkistar, LOL! :bounce: Cause I want me some Panda/BKK/Impact. In fact, if my little CBS tank works out and my publisher signs me for another series, I think I might even be able to see blowing a few bucks on some.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Bettatail said:


> so you still think the money from selling shrimp is profit?


 
Yes, and here's why: 

Scenario 1: you're a hobbiest who would have tanks anyway and you're managing to pay for your hobby and make a little extra over and above. Your expenses don’t factor in, because you’d have them anyway, so any money is pure profit. 

Scenario 2: You’re setting up a small business to breed shrimp (or whatever). This is a larger scale operation than the hobbiest. You’ve set up an entire fish room. You’re filing a Schedule C with the IRS. Now the costs have to be factored in, and your profits are only what you get over and above operating costs. Will you make money? Hard to say. Depends on your luck and marketing savvy. 

Scenario 3: You’re up-scaling from a fish room. You’ve rented or bought a property to dedicate to this business. You’re making a full time living at it. Now it’s about economy of scale. Can you produce and sell enough shrimp to support the business and pay yourself a reasonable wage? If you’re consistently producing quality shrimp and your culls can be moved to hobbiests safely, quickly, and legally, I think it’s entirely do-able. Esp if you’re the first one to pull it off . . .


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## jczernia (Apr 16, 2010)

snausage said:


> Here is a video of a commercial crs breeding
> operation (dialogue in german):
> http://www.aquanet.tv/Video/230-die-...-1000-aquarien
> This facility houses an approximate 350,000 bee shrimp, including bkk, blue bolt etc.
> ...


 All I want to know is who dose the water changes there??? LOL


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## jczernia (Apr 16, 2010)

I just thought of this, If you want this hobby to get big in this country all you need is a special on Animal Planet or NTGEO about the new hobby of shrimp keeping, not every one knows that there are shrimp that are beautiful and you can keep them in your tank
Lets not talk about California we know every one and there grandmother has shrimp there.


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

jczernia said:


> All I want to know is who dose the water changes there??? LOL


It's on auto. The tanks have an overflow drip system.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

over_stocked said:


> WHY? That makes little sense. 90% of shrimp keeping and breeding is the upfront cost. After that, going slow and steady to be safe is essential.
> 
> Almost all of the basic info needed to breed shrimp can be found through some simple searching. Experience brings the rest.
> 
> ...


You are, without a doubt, incorrect. Successful shrimp breeding operations stay ahead of the curve because they have employees who are tremendously skilled in selective breeding. The guy who runs the facility shown in the link I provided is responsible for introducing several of the expensive hybrids that have hit the market in recent years. 

Selective breeding isn't easily learned and a real business can't just rely on starting out with expensive stock.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

snausage said:


> You are, without a doubt, incorrect. Successful shrimp breeding operations stay ahead of the curve because they have employees who are tremendously skilled in selective breeding. The guy who runs the facility shown in the link I provided is responsible for introducing several of the expensive hybrids that have hit the market in recent years.
> 
> Selective breeding isn't easily learned and a real business can't just rely on starting out with expensive stock.


What exactly is challenging about selective breeding? Once you learn to recognize what you are looking for, it isn't particularly challenging. Scraping the information together might be a little challenging, but for the most part, it is simple science and easy prediction.

If your goal is to breed quality shrimp, starting with quality stock and continuing to cull the sub standard shrimp will provide the results you want. 

The video shows that it can be done, nothing else. It is only a full time job because of size. The quantity is what makes it full time. If you have to take the time to sort through this level of shrimp(and why huge vats wouldn't be used for high quality shrimp) then you will need someone who can focus on this. 

If all you wanted to do was mass produce shrimp for petco/petsmart/blah blah, less culling would be necessary. 

I never said that buying stock means you will succeed. But if you buy quality stock and take the time to learn what you need to, there is a much higher likelihood of success. Quality stock is essential to this. 

Selective breeding for shrimp is pretty easy as long as you understand your target. Knowing that quality shrimp will throw off the gamut of varieties and continuing to sort and cull for what you want is all it takes. 

It isn't rocket science. Anyone who says it is either doesn't understand or wants you to think they are smarter than they are.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

snausage said:


> The guy who runs the facility shown in the link I provided is responsible for introducing several of the expensive hybrids that have hit the market in recent years.


What hybrids are you talking about and where you got that information from. Frank would like to know.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

over_stocked said:


> What exactly is challenging about selective breeding? Once you learn to recognize what you are looking for, it isn't particularly challenging. Scraping the information together might be a little challenging, but for the most part, it is simple science and easy prediction.
> 
> If your goal is to breed quality shrimp, starting with quality stock and continuing to cull the sub standard shrimp will provide the results you want.
> 
> ...


Well then why don't you share with us how you'd breed bkk, wine red and blue bolt shrimps? If it's so easy and just a simple matter of observation, why doesn't anyone in america seem to have their own lines of the aforementioned shrimp? Have you ever kept bee shrimp? 

Aren't you just speculating that it would be easy? Do you have any 'market research' that shows how easy it is?

Unfortunately, google doesn't provide all the answers, so don't waste your time.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

msnikkistar said:


> What hybrids are you talking about and where you got that information from. Frank would like to know.


Who is Frank and why isn't he asking me himself?


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Jiang604 is Frank, my supplier and friend. He is busy with our new products and a ton of other stuff. 

His being busy has been the reason I have been out of stock.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Lol.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

snausage said:


> The guy who runs the facility shown in the link I provided is responsible for introducing several of the expensive hybrids that have hit the market in recent years.


Doesn't the link show a German farm? Or is just in German?

As far as I am aware, the strains we're talking about are all Asian (Taiwan is the source I always see).


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Betta Maniac said:


> Doesn't the link show a German farm? Or is just in German?
> 
> As far as I am aware, the strains we're talking about are all Asian (Taiwan is the source I always see).


It's a German site doing an interview with Mr. Yeh who is based in Asia.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I couldn't get the English version to play.


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

I think it can be profitable, although not a high profit unless you're doing it at the level that msnikkistar or the higher end breeders are doing it.

I "breed" shrimp. I sell them to local hobbyists and to ppl online here on this site, granted I'm not selling BKK or anything like that but hey, I've made back what I've spent on the shrimp tank and the initial stock, and enough to cover other parts of the hobby I'm getting into (LED lights, so expensive!!!)

So yeah, I would say I'm making a profit from it.

I would have had those tanks anyways because that's my hobby, I like looking at shrimp; so I don't think that these costs should be factored in. Sure if I was trying to do this at a commercial level I would incorporate the cost.

Also, I would be living and eating and paying for internet anyways even if I didn't have the shrimp tanks so I think that point is moot.

Anyhow...I think I'm the best shrimp breeder... the best shrimp breeder that lives in my house at least hahah.


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## jiang604 (Dec 28, 2009)

snausage said:


> The guy who runs the facility shown in the link I provided is responsible for introducing several of the expensive hybrids that have hit the market in recent years.



I'd like to know where you got this information about 叶纯青先生 (Mr Yeh/ Mr Leaf) and what hybrids are you talking about.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

contact chamber of commerce in Taiwan.
And you may get a hold with any licenced importer to get large order from him.

可以和他联系及申请进口执照，做他的产品北美代理人，但我不看好北美市场的销量。


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## justin182 (Aug 19, 2009)

Haha, let's get the discussion going in Chinese now, should we? But that will be cool to import his shrimps though.


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

Prepare to spend your life savings.


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## justin182 (Aug 19, 2009)

How much will that need?


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

Depends on how much you've saved for retirement.

Time to derail this thread. 

*Who likes puppies?*


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

gordonrichards said:


> Depends on how much you've saved for retirement.
> 
> Time to derail this thread.
> 
> *Who likes puppies?*


Better question...

*Who likes waffles?*


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

French toast is so much better.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

I like waffles and puppies (and Gir, who combines them both!).


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I heard through the grapevine that Caton was starting a waffles club.

I was never invited. :icon_frow

*sniff*


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

I had a waffle dinner party once. Savory for the main course (chicken and waffles) and sweet (ice cream and waffles) for dessert. Come visit me, laureleelbp, and I'll do it again.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Betta Maniac said:


> I had a waffle dinner party once. Savory for the main course (chicken and waffles) and sweet (ice cream and waffles) for dessert. Come visit me, laureleelbp, and I'll do it again.



Hold up, where's my invite?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

[For those newcomers who may have missed the original waffle fun: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lounge/107006-our-information-being-used-marketing.html ]


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

I like how TPT's official derail is waffles :hihi:

Speaking of waffles, I finally unearthed my waffle maker! Guess I'm making waffles soon. So tired of the sad frozen excuse of calories...


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Then I guess this is the end of the original discussion.

Time to move on.


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