# CRS SS - SSS dying off one by one .. seeking experience advice



## meppitech (Apr 29, 2011)

Bump. A better authority than I will respond. If it was my tank, I would work on lowering kh to a level between 0-1. I would also raise the gh to about 5.


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## Julianzh (Jul 28, 2011)

The gh and tds are low. Try 5gh and lower the kh. I had a hob filter but still dying one by one until I added a sponge filter and all living good.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

meppitech said:


> Bump. A better authority than I will respond. If it was my tank, I would work on lowering kh to a level between 0-1. I would also raise the gh to about 5.


thanks meppitech, 

in regards to the GH level; yes i often forget to add RO right when I perform water changes.. I am thinking to double dose next water change or perhaps just add one tsp now and test water parameter tomorrow.. 

perhaps is the seiryu rock ? I happen to stumble upon this thread.. so I decided to give it a try; took them out put vinegar on them and its sizzling! 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82249

thoughts or other tips anyone? or any other suggestions, comments ? 

thanks!


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## aluka (Feb 2, 2013)

Your gh and tds is way too low. You need to have gh 5-6, and tds of at least 100. I'm actually surprise your shrimps survived so long at such a low gh. Shrimps don't generally live long in low gh, because they generally hit molting issues and die.

If you are using ro, your kh should be zero, if your remineralizer is raising your kh, you might want to switch to a new one like salty shrimp.

Don't be so concern about the ph for now, your priority is the gh and the tds. Raise it! Worry about your ph, once you fix that. (While they prefer and breeds better inlower ph, they are perfectly fine in ph 7ish. They won't die)


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## oblongshrimp (Jul 26, 2006)

The seiryu rock is likely raising your KH. I don't know if Kents RO raises KH as well as GH though (you could test your remineralized water before adding it to the tank though). 

I agree that you want to lower the KH to basically 0 and raise the GH to 5. I would recommend using Salty Shrimp or Mosura Mineral Plus, I have used both of those with great success.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

aluka said:


> Your gh and tds is way too low. You need to have gh 5-6, and tds of at least 100. I'm actually surprise your shrimps survived so long at such a low gh. Shrimps don't generally live long in low gh, because they generally hit molting issues and die.
> 
> If you are using ro, your kh should be zero, if your remineralizer is raising your kh, you might want to switch to a new one like salty shrimp.
> 
> Don't be so concern about the ph for now, your priority is the gh and the tds. Raise it! Worry about your ph, once you fix that. (While they prefer and breeds better inlower ph, they are perfectly fine in ph 7ish. They won't die)


Thanks guys, I am taking notes and at the same time taking some action.. 

Aluka, actually most of them died.. only the strong survived :X .. let me try to use the RO right .. if it raises the KH then i guess i will have to try salty shrimp or shirakura CA+

thanks!
*http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=ZtIKii5HLvdbXctJOzTA7Q&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cGE*


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## Chipoi84 (Jun 17, 2012)

Honestly, I think is the fluval substrate. It not as good at buffering as ada. The ph rise is the result of the water agitation from the filter. Your best bet right now is to a add humid acid or a new layer of substrate.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

Chipoi84 said:


> Honestly, I think is the fluval substrate. It not as good at buffering as ada. The ph rise is the result of the water agitation from the filter. Your best bet right now is to a add humid acid or a new layer of substrate.


should i just add some eheim peat pallets to the internal filtration system? i am wondering how that would effect the water parameters as it is now..


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

Your water is definitely not right. Your colony numbers should be up over 100 minimum in a year. Like others said, bite the bullet and replace the fss with a good buffering substrate, use RO and remimeralize with a shrimp specific product and get rid of rocks that will raise your kh. You want gh of 6 and kh of 0-1.

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

The things you have not considered are harming your colony.

Things that stand out. Inadequate filtration, poor oxygenation, lack of bacteria supplementing, drastic ph swings. Active substrate is helpful but not mandatory. Fluval Shrimp stratum is not an ideal choice for substrate. One may actually have better luck with regular clown puke gravel from petco.

stability is key. weekly water changes isn't inline with that. Another thing worth keeping an eye out for is planaria or hydras. they have been known to kill shrimp over time. Hope your colony recovers soon.


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## jimmytruong87 (Oct 16, 2012)

TDS : too low
GH : too low
KH: too high
PH : too high


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

All have said good stuff you need to get your kh down to 0-1. Your gh to 4-6. Your ph to 6-7. Your tds to around 140. Make sure your temps are not much more than 74-76

Also if you have Seiryu stone it will raise kh and ph. It is fine with neos by crs are allot more finicky. 

I think your shrimp are dieting because they are having a hard time molting. There shells are not dense enough to shed. What do you feed are you feeding foods rich in calcium or supplement with some other form of calcium?

I would run a air stone in your ro water and do that for 48hrs and check ph and all others after that. 


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## randyl (Feb 1, 2012)

Your TDS and GH are a bit low, but I don't think that's the main reason of shrimp dying They are low but you're not the only person keeping CRS in that kind of parameters, other people I know doing that are all very successful, even including some world famous breeders.

However, your KH is what's increasing your PH, and Kent RO Right does increase KH. Together with a substrate that doesn't buffer the PH low enough, your shrimps are having a hard time surviving.

From Kent RO Right product description:


> Kent R/O Right Water Conditioner is a specially formulated mixture of dissolvable solids ..., together with a small amount of carbonate alkalinity (KH) to reproduce artificial river water (most aquarium fish are river fish).


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## aluka (Feb 2, 2013)

randyl said:


> Your TDS and GH are a bit low, but I don't think that's the main reason of shrimp dying They are low but you're not the only person keeping CRS in that kind of parameters, other people I know doing that are all very successful, even including some world famous breeders.


I highly doubt world class breeders keep shrimps in gh 2 and tds 45 o.o. 

Honestly, I am still shocked they lived for a year.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

randyl said:


> Your TDS and GH are a bit low, but I don't think that's the main reason of shrimp dying They are low but you're not the only person keeping CRS in that kind of parameters, other people I know doing that are all very successful, even including some world famous breeders.
> 
> However, your KH is what's increasing your PH, and Kent RO Right does increase KH. Together with a substrate that doesn't buffer the PH low enough, your shrimps are having a hard time surviving.
> 
> From Kent RO Right product description:


thank you all for the great feedback.. i just ordered ADA amazonia.. however dont think i will be putting that in any time soon.. because two shrimps are actually berried even in the horrible water condition now.. 

for now ill just add some kent RO right to get the GH up.. i already removed the seiryu stone.. and ill be doing a water change tomorrow .. ill alsopump some oxygen over night to see if the TDS as well as GH rises tomorrow and maybe run another PH test.. (two hours ago i added some RO right and GH went up to about 4 and TDS up to about 81) any suggestion on how to raise TDS or is that just associated along with mineralizing with additives such as RO right? 

can someone suggest a better product for mineralizing RO water other than what im using now which is RO right? something that is widely available for immediate purchase from amazon or something.. 

i did some research in regards to filtration systems and it seems alot of shrimp keepers / breeders suggests using simple sponge / air pump filtration .. so i was thinking getting rid of of the internal filtration for an sponge setup.. thoughts? 

either way let me get GH & TDS up and see if the PH drops first.. i feel like im making some progress towards improvements! couldn't have done it without all the great information all of you have provided.. thanks so much! :icon_smil:icon_smil:icon_smil:icon_smil:icon_smil:bounce::bounce::bounce:roud:roud:


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

Slaty shrimp gh+ is great and it is the best bang for your buck


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## Chipoi84 (Jun 17, 2012)

For the ada you probably need to cycle it first before putting it into the tank. Did you buy enough to replace the fluval or just to off?


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

Chipoi84 said:


> For the ada you probably need to cycle it first before putting it into the tank. Did you buy enough to replace the fluval or just to off?


i bought a 21 pound bag .. i think its enough for my 9 gallon.. how do you suggest i cycle this without another tank available? i was thinking removing the CRS to a bucket for 10-15 days.. in order for me to redo and completely swap out the substrate( i heard the initial ammonia spike is crazy...) however 2 crs are berried now.. im caught up in all these dilemma's:help:

was also thinking removing the internal filtration and replaced it with Amazon.com: Jardin Aquarium Fish Tank Biochemical Sponge Filter Air Pump: Pet Supplies which i already bought..


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

sbarbee54 said:


> Slaty shrimp gh+ is great and it is the best bang for your buck
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad 3 using Tapatalk HD


sbarbee54, 

i was looking on alpha breeders website .. i see that they have only salty shrimp GH/KH +? http://www.alphaprobreeders.com/saltyshrimp-shrimp-mineral-gh-kh-200g/ 

i thought my problem was that GH is too low and kh is too high.. i dont see a product that only raises the GH except bee shrimp mineral GH+.. 

http://www.alphaprobreeders.com/bee-shrimp-mineral-gh-230-grams/

comments?


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## aluka (Feb 2, 2013)

You can't cycle with the shrimps in there, ADA amazonia needs like 2 months to finish leeching =/ you might want to get a new tank to cycle them/finish leeching them. Or cancel your order and buy a non leeching substrate.


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## aluka (Feb 2, 2013)

blue planter said:


> sbarbee54,
> 
> i was looking on alpha breeders website .. i see that they have only salty shrimp GH/KH +? http://www.alphaprobreeders.com/saltyshrimp-shrimp-mineral-gh-kh-200g/
> 
> ...


i think oblongshrimp sells salty shrimp gh+, i'm pretty sure i brought mine from him.

Should pm him and see if he still has any sitting around.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

aluka said:


> You can't cycle with the shrimps in there, ADA amazonia needs like 2 months to finish leeching =/ you might want to get a new tank to cycle them/finish leeching them. Or cancel your order and buy a non leeching substrate.


DOH....:icon_frow:icon_frow:icon_frow:icon_frow:icon_frow 

i guess ill just attempt to stabilize gh & tds while lowering kh first.. 

then ill figure something out in order to cycle this bag of aqua soil..


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## aluka (Feb 2, 2013)

blue planter said:


> DOH....:icon_frow:icon_frow:icon_frow:icon_frow:icon_frow
> 
> i guess ill just attempt to stabilize gh & tds while lowering kh first..
> 
> then ill figure something out in order to cycle this bag of aqua soil..


Get a bucket and leech out the ammonia?


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

aluka said:


> Get a bucket and leech out the ammonia?


precisely what i was thinking.. home depot 5 gallon jug..i have a extra hob i can use to cycle it.. as it stabilizes.. i can drop in the assassin snail, however i am still scared to completely swap out the fluval shrimp substrate after the fact.. its a whole lot of work IMO.. shouldn't have bought the FSS fron the gecko, hard lesson learned..


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## sbarbee54 (Jan 12, 2012)

Second one is what you need the bee shrimp one


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## peachii (Jun 1, 2013)

If you switch to a sponge filter, don't completely switch them. Keep your current filter running and add the sponge filter. Let the sponge filter go for several months and then if you are still considering it, remove the other filter. This way the sponge filter is cycled with BB and you don't force a mini cycle that could hurt your shrimp from losing the BB in the current filter.

I'd go the route of large bucket or tarp outside, wet and dry over the course of a few weeks to force the ammonia leech to quicken up. Then put it in a bucket with an airstone and let it run for a few more weeks to ensure that you don't get any bad feelers for your shrimp. Or just go to tractor supply, buy a 50 pound bag of black diamond and sell the amazonia to someone else . Am I the only who thinks it's crazy that such an expensive substrate will kill your critters if you are unaware of the ammonia spikes before using it?


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Is not saving whatever shrimp left not worth the effort?



blue planter said:


> precisely what i was thinking.. home depot 5 gallon jug..i have a extra hob i can use to cycle it.. as it stabilizes.. i can drop in the assassin snail, however i am still scared to completely swap out the fluval shrimp substrate after the fact.. * its a whole lot of work *IMO.. shouldn't have bought the FSS fron the gecko, hard lesson learned..


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## Alpha Pro Breeders (Jan 26, 2010)

blue planter said:


> sbarbee54,
> 
> i was looking on alpha breeders website .. i see that they have only salty shrimp GH/KH +? http://www.alphaprobreeders.com/saltyshrimp-shrimp-mineral-gh-kh-200g/
> 
> ...


We carry the Salty Shrimp GH+ too, here is the link. It's under Water Conditioners.
http://www.alphaprobreeders.com/bee-shrimp-mineral-gh-230-grams/


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

acitydweller said:


> Is not saving whatever shrimp left not worth the effort?
> 
> If you arent really up to making the effort, skip this species of shrimp and go for something less sensitive.
> 
> Any and all research up front, would have avoided this tank re-do.


Let's try to offer advice without scolding other members for mistakes that they have made roud:


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

You're right Lex... too much info. I'll purge the advice my post. thx


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## Lexinverts (Jan 17, 2012)

acitydweller said:


> You're right Lex... too much info. I'll purge the advice my post. thx


Advice is great. Let's just try to be nice while giving it. :smile:


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Sorry to come off a bit terse as it just breaks my heart seeing all these shrimp death threads where all this information is readily available here on this forum. 

I sincerely hope the owner can turn this tank around as these little guys deserve much better.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

acitydweller said:


> Is not saving whatever shrimp left not worth the effort?


i said it was a "whole lot of effort" but wasn't complaining about the actual work i am doing.. it is def worth saving whatever shrimps i have you took it the wrong way :smile::smile::smile::smile:


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

*progress update*

here is what i have done.. i took out the seiryu rock ... mineralize the RO water that is in my tank.. with Kents R/O right.. i added 5 TSP .. it is crazy because in the instruction it states only add 1 tsp per 5 gallon and i only have a 9 gallon tank but having added 5 tsp of kents RO right my water parameter as of 5 min ago reads:

PH : unchanged still at 7.6 in tank (NO IDEA why) out of the ro water jug PH is 6.4
GH: 4 even having to add 5 tsp of it from yesterday till today
TDS: 120 (raised it i guess by adding ro right up from 50's) 
KH: 3 unchanged 

I bought some bee's shrimp mineral GH+ and will get it next week.. 

the parameter did change some .. GH went up by 1 and tds up at 120 however I am having to add so much Kents RO right .. makes me wonder how kent come up with these intructions.. yesterday i went to water place and bought another five gallon of RO water and i immediately added 6 tsp of kents ro right.. it brought the TDS from 4 to 124 GH seems to only be at 2-3 KH0 and PH at 6.4 (just dont seem as potent as it states in the back of the RO right bottle 4 tsp chaging the water of a 5 gallon from very soft to very hard.. its just not true).

what should i do now? continue to dose RO right ? or water change? 

thanks guys!


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## Merth (Sep 9, 2012)

Im wondering if your FSS isnt leeching stuff back into the tank causing the ph to keep going up?


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

Merth said:


> Im wondering if your FSS isnt leeching stuff back into the tank causing the ph to keep going up?


I think the FSS has already exhausted its buffering capability.. and its only been not even a year.. i would say close though..


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## Chipoi84 (Jun 17, 2012)

I had the same problem as you until I bought some humid powder for cheap from eBay. I don't know how long it will last though. My ph is like 6 right now.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

Chipoi84 said:


> I had the same problem as you until I bought some humid powder for cheap from eBay. I don't know how long it will last though. My ph is like 6 right now.


may i ask what that is mostly used for? and how do you use it?


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## Chipoi84 (Jun 17, 2012)

It is used to lower ph. Borneowild sell them in gravel form (borneowild humid). The eBay one is in powder form so it clouded my tank for like a few hours. I just try to soak it in water first and then pour it in. But I think you're on the right track using aqua soil though.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

blue planter said:


> here is what i have done.. i took out the seiryu rock ... mineralize the RO water that is in my tank.. with Kents R/O right.. i added 5 TSP .. it is crazy because in the instruction it states only add 1 tsp per 5 gallon and i only have a 9 gallon tank but having added 5 tsp of kents RO right my water parameter as of 5 min ago reads:
> 
> PH : unchanged still at 7.6 in tank (NO IDEA why) out of the ro water jug PH is 6.4
> GH: 4 even having to add 5 tsp of it from yesterday till today
> ...


i keep the lights on for about 4-5 hours a day .. does this have anything to do with contributing to high KH? there is fairly large amount of agitation from the internal filter on the water surface.. just trying to figure out why the KH is high at 3 - thus high PH


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

*update*

as of now.. even after water change.. tanks water parameter:

GH = 4 (with a whole lot of kent's RO right 6 tsp) 
KH = 3 
PH 7.6 
TDS 140(up from 48 because of massive amount of Ro right ive been adding)


tested the parameter of the RO water which i buy from a local water store (with RO right premixed) prior to performing the water change.

GH-4
KH-0 (whats strange here is that RO right did not alter the KH which makes me wonder even more why the high KH in tank)
PH.6.4 
TDS 135

can someone comment on why the change in KH and PH specifically? these are the two biggest headache and main problem in my tank.. someone reported that substratpro media though glass inert properties causes PH to go up ? worn out substrate not buffering causing the PH to rise? 

thanks alot!


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## Forumsnow (Feb 22, 2012)

Your kh is so high because of the seriyu stone, and I believe someone commented that the Kent ro right has a small amount of kh in it. The elevated level of kh is causing you pH to be higher. With a kh of 3 any acids in the tank have a much harder time lowering the pH because the kh acts as a buffer for the. Even though you removed the stone it will take many water changes to bring your kh down. 
In my royal blue, oebt tank I had 10 pounds of seriyu stone in a 12 long. I used ro/di remineralized with shirakura ca+. The kh of my water change water was always a kh of 0. But because of the stone I always had a kh of 3 and a pH of 7.4. These have proven to be pretty perfect conditions for tigers but obviously are not ideal for crystals. 
Your shrimp have been living in these conditions for a long time now and there are many things you were not doing correctly. I would only change about 10% of your water twice a week, dripping the new water in, until you reach a good level. A quick change in parameters could be even more detrimental to your shrimp than the conditions they are currently living in. 
I would Google, kh,gh, tds and pH and try to learn as much about water chemistry as possible. I believe a huge part of my success has been because I understand the fundamentals of how water chemistry works.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

Forumsnow said:


> Your kh is so high because of the seriyu stone, and I believe someone commented that the Kent ro right has a small amount of kh in it. The elevated level of kh is causing you pH to be higher. With a kh of 3 any acids in the tank have a much harder time lowering the pH because the kh acts as a buffer for the. Even though you removed the stone it will take many water changes to bring your kh down.
> In my royal blue, oebt tank I had 10 pounds of seriyu stone in a 12 long. I used ro/di remineralized with shirakura ca+. The kh of my water change water was always a kh of 0. But because of the stone I always had a kh of 3 and a pH of 7.4. These have proven to be pretty perfect conditions for tigers but obviously are not ideal for crystals.
> Your shrimp have been living in these conditions for a long time now and there are many things you were not doing correctly. I would only change about 10% of your water twice a week, dripping the new water in, until you reach a good level. A quick change in parameters could be even more detrimental to your shrimp than the conditions they are currently living in.
> I would Google, kh,gh, tds and pH and try to learn as much about water chemistry as possible. I believe a huge part of my success has been because I understand the fundamentals of how water chemistry works.



thanks for the feedback.. okay ill do 2 water change per week and check results after next week.. agree on the slow and gradual change as i dont want to shock them due to sudden water chemistry shift..


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Add some driftwood, all shrimps love to pick on it and then the humic and tannins are good for them, mostly to mitigate metal ions.


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## Overgrowth (Feb 19, 2012)

Dat FSS is sketchy.
Dat rock is sketchy.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> Add some driftwood, all shrimps love to pick on it and then the humic and tannins are good for them, mostly to mitigate metal ions.


thanks TOM, 

i have a huge piece of ada african drift wood in it that takes up most of the tank already..


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

Overgrowth said:


> Dat FSS is sketchy.
> Dat rock is sketchy.


ROCK is out... 
SUBSTRATE... i can't do anything about at this moment.. ADA aqua soil is still sitting in the bag.. :icon_sad:

i got the eheim tort peat coming on tuesday though.. ill put a small pouch in the internal filtration system and hope it brings a temp solution to lowering KH and PH a bit.


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## 52149 (Feb 26, 2012)

Aloha, 

Your ph is out of whack for sure. Rmove the air stone and watch the ph drop. Oxygenating the water rises the ph drastically. Tds is too low ideal is any where 90-120 ppm 

Gh looks about right I you can lower it to 0-1 that's better 
Kh is too low for ideal breeding and other purposes get to about 6-7 that's ideal. 

Filtration seems to be over the required gallons per minute so the beneficial bacteria looks healthy. I hope . 

I have one question when doing water changes do u use a vacuum to stir up the substrate? 

I have been breeding high grade cardinas for over 2 years it's taken me over 1 years to get the system down. I also Took a weeks course watching and learning in Japan with the shrimp king mr Suzuki.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

daboss808 said:


> Aloha,
> 
> Your ph is out of whack for sure. Rmove the air stone and watch the ph drop. Oxygenating the water rises the ph drastically. Tds is too low ideal is any where 90-120 ppm
> 
> ...


hi daboss808, 

i believe u got the GH and KH reversed? where do you live in hawaii? i used to live in wahiawa.. now in los angeles.. 

when i do the water change i basically just draw the water from the middle portion of the tank.. i never stir substrate or vacuum the substrate? am i doing something wrong.. yes i suppose all the dirty stuff is in it but i thought disturbing it would make the situation worse? any comment would be appreciate it! 

mahalo!


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

blue planter said:


> hi daboss808,
> 
> i believe u got the GH and KH reversed? where do you live in hawaii? i used to live in wahiawa.. now in los angeles..
> 
> ...


Yeah u want little or no Kh. 
oxygenating the water wont affect the pH that much and more oxygen in the water is probably good for shrimps anyways.


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## 52149 (Feb 26, 2012)

Bananariot said:


> Yeah u want little or no Kh.
> oxygenating the water wont affect the pH that much and more oxygen in the water is probably good for shrimps anyways.


Planted tanks is already great oxygen source. Plants take in co2 and reproduces oxygen. Because of the "Airstone" it rising the ph. Ada soil should maintain a ph level of 6.6-7.0 not 7.6 or additional rocks added could have raised it. 

But I could be wrong. All my Setups has sponge filters with DIY undergravel filter connected to canisters.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

No such thing as too much oxygenating.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

+1 to Soothing. Furthermore though I have read about airstones and extra oxygenation increasing pH I have NEVER had that occur in ANY of my tanks...even when I was trying to raise pH. I added 3 oxygen sources in the ways of airstones, air wands, and spray bars breaking the surface in a 3 gallon tank and NOT ONCE noted an increase in pH. LOL. So there simply has to be more to it than just adding an air stone increases pH. Trust me, I've done it in all my tanks, from 2 gallons to 12 gallons with no noted difference. Everyone else may have a different experience, that's just mine

And for every person who brings up FSS as a problem I'd really like to know if those folks actually have any firsthand experience of the product itself or if they are going off stuff they read back in 2010-11 when the product was quite inconsistent. I ask that honestly and would love to know EXACTLY what folks found wrong with it. It's a substrate, it's not magic, you still need to understand parameters and how they work. I find that people quick to blame certain things like substrate (generally in 'it doesn't buffer enough or it wears out in 6 months) don't have a good handle on understanding buffering substrates in the first place and think tossing 8+ pH water on top of those substrates is a really great idea. I admit that I am still learning about water chemistry and how certain things interact or affect one another but one of the first things I did learn was the fastest way to trash your buffering substrate was to toss really high pH tap water in the tank with it.

There are tons of things that could be the culprit here. Yes, even down to substrate (there can ALWAYS be a bad batch of ANYTHING when it comes to products you purchase, just nature of the beast). At this point you can start making a list and changing one thing at a time and risk killing more shrimp OR do a full tank teardown and redo. Honestly, if every single batch of shrimp I bought was dying in the tank before their 'time' so to speak, I'd redo. It's a HUGE pain in the butt but I have had to do it myself more than once. When you try to fix things as best as you can and still watch animals in your care dying left and right there has to be a time you stop putting them in a death chamber and start over. I say that not as an attack on you OP, I've said it to myself. My husband has said it to me 'oh, bought more shrimp to put into the tank of death huh?'. LOL, it happens, you gotta know when to give up the ghost and start anew.


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## 52149 (Feb 26, 2012)

Everyone here doesn't look at the fact that shrimp are scavengers all picking at the substrate bed. If ammonia and nitrite are leaking then who do u guys think is getting the harsh end of the bacteria? Shrimp like to roll the sand substrate or any substrate in their mouth picking up the bad bacteria.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

ravensgate said:


> +1 to Soothing. Furthermore though I have read about airstones and extra oxygenation increasing pH I have NEVER had that occur in ANY of my tanks...even when I was trying to raise pH. I added 3 oxygen sources in the ways of airstones, air wands, and spray bars breaking the surface in a 3 gallon tank and NOT ONCE noted an increase in pH. LOL. So there simply has to be more to it than just adding an air stone increases pH. Trust me, I've done it in all my tanks, from 2 gallons to 12 gallons with no noted difference. Everyone else may have a different experience, that's just mine
> 
> And for every person who brings up FSS as a problem I'd really like to know if those folks actually have any firsthand experience of the product itself or if they are going off stuff they read back in 2010-11 when the product was quite inconsistent. I ask that honestly and would love to know EXACTLY what folks found wrong with it. It's a substrate, it's not magic, you still need to understand parameters and how they work. I find that people quick to blame certain things like substrate (generally in 'it doesn't buffer enough or it wears out in 6 months) don't have a good handle on understanding buffering substrates in the first place and think tossing 8+ pH water on top of those substrates is a really great idea. I admit that I am still learning about water chemistry and how certain things interact or affect one another but one of the first things I did learn was the fastest way to trash your buffering substrate was to toss really high pH tap water in the tank with it.
> 
> There are tons of things that could be the culprit here. Yes, even down to substrate (there can ALWAYS be a bad batch of ANYTHING when it comes to products you purchase, just nature of the beast). At this point you can start making a list and changing one thing at a time and risk killing more shrimp OR do a full tank teardown and redo. Honestly, if every single batch of shrimp I bought was dying in the tank before their 'time' so to speak, I'd redo. It's a HUGE pain in the butt but I have had to do it myself more than once. When you try to fix things as best as you can and still watch animals in your care dying left and right there has to be a time you stop putting them in a death chamber and start over. I say that not as an attack on you OP, I've said it to myself. My husband has said it to me 'oh, bought more shrimp to put into the tank of death huh?'. LOL, it happens, you gotta know when to give up the ghost and start anew.


thanks for your input .... learned something from it!! 

i think i am in that bracket of people who have exhuasted the buffering capability in this substrate due to my own lack of understanding and abuse from the beginning. when i first started, i did not use RO water; i used 100% tap with prime. anyone from cali could agree with me that PH is super high here with 300 TDS right off the bat. must have used tap water for atleast 6 month until i switched over to RO. hence the problem now with this substrate. 

this is a learning lesson for me; though i have ran out of ideas of why the PH go from 6.4 RO water jug to the tank ending up with 7.6 i think i have a pretty good idea and can conclude it is the substrate (worn out). there is nothing else i could think of that could have contributed to this huge swing everytime. rocks are out, checked substratpro media (no problem), did a test on ph/kh after mixing ro water with kents ro right.. not much difference either.. 

i just have to bite the dust and hopefully cycle the ada substrate i already have sitting around.. and start new


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

blue planter said:


> t
> 
> this is a learning lesson for me; though i have ran out of ideas of why the PH go from 6.4 RO water jug to the tank ending up with 7.6 i think i have a pretty good idea and can conclude it is the substrate (worn out). there is nothing else i could think of that could have contributed to this huge swing everytime. rocks are out, checked substratpro media (no problem), did a test on ph/kh after mixing ro water with kents ro right.. not much difference either..


It's the kh causing the water to jump from the 6.4 RO to 7.6. What is the kh in the tank (will go back and reread now)? If it's 2-3 or so or higher, there's your answer. Get the the kh closer to 0-1. Though if you did the tap thing for the first 6 months I really probably would start anew because you probably wore the substrate out quite a bit. Heck though, I wouldn't deal with a leeching substrate, I'd go right back to FSS but this time use RO water. :wink: That's what I do in my FSS tanks, and pH is 6.4-6.6, KH 0 GH 5-6 and I use Fluval Shrimp Mineral remineralizer. I keep the TDS around 175-200 and have tibees, OEBT, CRS/CBS/Goldens, TT hybrids, Taiwans and amanos in those tanks. Though I haven't tested in a few weeks that's what I've kept them at since I set them up except for that one time I tried to raise the pH on one tank by raising the kh up to 3....got the pH up from 6.4 to 7.0 and then I started losing shrimp (they weren't used to the higher pH, was my fault and a stupid move!) so I had to keep doing more heavier water changes with RO to get the dang KH back down and of course when I did the pH came back down with it

So there are ways to deal with it if you don't want to do a whole rescape. Just get the KH down and hopefully your pH will come down with it and stabilize. I'd probably try that before a last ditch effort of starting over but depends on how fast they are dying. I wish you luck and trust me, I did the same thing with my first batch of FSS...but boy did it work beautifully on dropping my 8.4pH water down to 7.2 for those first 4-5 months....LOL. Then all heck broke loose, it stopped buffering and pH shot back up. Live and learn

And look at it this way, if two are berried, things aren't 'OH MY GAAHHHH BADDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' . LOL. If things were so epically awful they wouldn't be breeding I assure you. Changing things around and yanking them out, re-cycling the tank with new substrate, re-acclimating and such is likely going to stress those girls into dropping every single egg. I would do small water changes daily using a fairly slow drip line (when I say small, I mean like 10% WC or possibly less). This is going to be a little nicer on the shifting to get them used to new parameters. Try to get things settled over a week or two, have patience. Use RO water remineralized to GH 5 and 0 KH...yes that means ditching the Kents because it's not going to allow for a KH of 0. If you are using straight RO you are going to drop your GH even further, you don't want that!!! Salty Shrimp or Fluval Shrimp Minerals will work, the Fluval I can actually find locally sometimes so might want to call around.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

ravensgate said:


> It's the kh causing the water to jump from the 6.4 RO to 7.6. What is the kh in the tank (will go back and reread now)? If it's 2-3 or so or higher, there's your answer. Get the the kh closer to 0-1. Though if you did the tap thing for the first 6 months I really probably would start anew because you probably wore the substrate out quite a bit. Heck though, I wouldn't deal with a leeching substrate, I'd go right back to FSS but this time use RO water. :wink: That's what I do in my FSS tanks, and pH is 6.4-6.6, KH 0 GH 5-6 and I use Fluval Shrimp Mineral remineralizer. I keep the TDS around 175-200 and have tibees, OEBT, CRS/CBS/Goldens, TT hybrids, Taiwans and amanos in those tanks. Though I haven't tested in a few weeks that's what I've kept them at since I set them up except for that one time I tried to raise the pH on one tank by raising the kh up to 3....got the pH up from 6.4 to 7.0 and then I started losing shrimp (they weren't used to the higher pH, was my fault and a stupid move!) so I had to keep doing more heavier water changes with RO to get the dang KH back down and of course when I did the pH came back down with it
> 
> So there are ways to deal with it if you don't want to do a whole rescape. Just get the KH down and hopefully your pH will come down with it and stabilize. I'd probably try that before a last ditch effort of starting over but depends on how fast they are dying. I wish you luck and trust me, I did the same thing with my first batch of FSS...but boy did it work beautifully on dropping my 8.4pH water down to 7.2 for those first 4-5 months....LOL. Then all heck broke loose, it stopped buffering and pH shot back up. Live and learn
> 
> And look at it this way, if two are berried, things aren't 'OH MY GAAHHHH BADDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' . LOL. If things were so epically awful they wouldn't be breeding I assure you. Changing things around and yanking them out, re-cycling the tank with new substrate, re-acclimating and such is likely going to stress those girls into dropping every single egg. I would do small water changes daily using a fairly slow drip line (when I say small, I mean like 10% WC or possibly less). This is going to be a little nicer on the shifting to get them used to new parameters. Try to get things settled over a week or two, have patience. Use RO water remineralized to GH 5 and 0 KH...yes that means ditching the Kents because it's not going to allow for a KH of 0. If you are using straight RO you are going to drop your GH even further, you don't want that!!! Salty Shrimp or Fluval Shrimp Minerals will work, the Fluval I can actually find locally sometimes so might want to call around.


great feedback .. ill try to look around and find out how i would go about crafting a DYI dripper i never made one or had to use one up until now i guess again live and learn.. 

here is something weird tho.. in a 5 gallon jug of RO water.. after mineralizing with KENTS RO right the KH is tested at 0 GH barely goes up to about 3-4 even after 5-6 tsps .. right now the water in my tank GH is at 4 and KH is right between 2-3; when i use the KH API test .. at 2 drops water turns greenish yellow then 3rd drop will make it yellow.. so i am assuming KH is def between 2-3.. so yes i do firmly believe that if i was able to change water daily for a week.. id prob have a great chance on dropping this KH further and bring PH down a little. KENTS RO right dont seem to raise thE KH though as most of the members on here have mentioned.. perhaps inconsistency within every batch of ro right mineralizer GEE>.....:confused1:


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

I though someone mentioned on here the Kent's is meant to raise KH? I might have misread. A drip line is just air hose and a control valve T. $2 of stuff you can get at any pet store or Walmart. When I get in tonight I'll photograph mine


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

ravensgate said:


> I though someone mentioned on here the Kent's is meant to raise KH? I might have misread. A drip line is just air hose and a control valve T. $2 of stuff you can get at any pet store or Walmart. When I get in tonight I'll photograph mine


Hi Ravensgate, 

yes i read in many forums that hobbyist have experienced RO right raising the KH level in RO / TAP .. however for me it didn't so i dont think that is a contributing factor .. its something from my tank that is raising it.. though its really hard to use RO right to even raise GH (IE. 6 drops to raise it up to 3-4 GH) i prob wont be using this anymore as soon as i get the Bee's shrimp mineral GH+ to me it seems ro right is not consistent from batch to batch.. this is the information i have gathered from reading through multiple forums and experiences with this product. 

ITS THE SUBSTRATE raising the PH and KH - 100% my fault too lol!

sure picture would be appreciate it ..:red_mouth:red_mouth


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

blue planter said:


> ITS THE SUBSTRATE raising the PH and KH - 100% my fault too lol!
> 
> .


 Doubtful. Rocks, hardscape, those things can raise KH. The seiryu stone can be raising it, any tap water you've used in the past that could be lingering is causing the KH to be higher, and a remineralizer that might be adjusting the KH can do it. Are you testing the KH of your remineralized water BEFORE you add it to the aquarium? That's the only way you're going to know for a fact what's going on with the RO water. The KH is what is causing your 6.4 pH RO water to rise once it goes in the tank. Either the KH rising is occurring during your remineralization (product) or it's already in the tank. The more 0 KH water you add to the tank the more it's going to lower the KH in the tank, thus lowering the pH. I have had to both lower pH/KH values and raise them in tanks...this is both with buffering substrates and inert. I have raised KH/pH in a tank then had to spend time getting it back down. These are things you can control with water and keeping leeching stones out of your tank. Do some more reading on the relationship between KH and pH. 

Simple contraption, airline tubing, one piece cut and goes in the bucket attaches to airline control two way valve with another piece of airline coming out of that. I set the bucket above my tanks, open the valve up, suck on the bottom end of the hose to get the water moving then put it directed into the tank, and adjust the flow down using the control on the valve by however much I need to. Easy peasy. This is also how to drip acclimate shrimp except of course one end would go in the aquarium the other whatever container the new shrimp are in.


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## 52149 (Feb 26, 2012)

There has to be a spike in the water. How can it be that his ro tap is 6 something and when he adds it it shoots to 7.6......... Has to be something major. I would agree with blue planter. Substrate. Something so mass could be the culprit raising the ph that dramatic. Rocks raise ph in points but little. 

How new I'd the substrate? Is it less than 6 months? 

If you are mineralizing the ro water and the substrate is new then stop. You shoul not be dosing only adding calcium to the water. The only trace mineral that should be even added to the ro water is calcium. 

If your only adding what's needed then substrate is your big uproar


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

I use RO water at pH 6.4 and I can get the pH to spike up to 7.2-7.4 by just messing with the KH. But I'm done trying to convince anyone otherwise, this is info you can attain through research and sheer experimentation to see with your own eyes. Good luck with your tank.


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## 52149 (Feb 26, 2012)

My question to everyone is why mess with mother nature? If tap is above 7 bring it down naturally. There are many ways to remove hard metals in the water with simple additives. Why remove all? Ro water is basically taking out all your minerals so only to replace it? Money wasted. $100 system and another $30 and replacing canisters refilling minerals. Waste of money. More headaches more to control. 

K.I.S.S ( keep it simple stupid) 

Ravens has her method of shrimp keeping and it's seems a little expert for what we are all trying to figure out. But ones person experience may be another persons demise. That why I say start fresh. Go back to the basics. Don't get all caught up in expert advice. Different states have different quality. That's why I keep it simple. Moss, low tech plants driftwood, medium girt substrate, and ceramics. 

Go back to the basics


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## aluka (Feb 2, 2013)

daboss808 said:


> My question to everyone is why mess with mother nature? If tap is above 7 bring it down naturally. There are many ways to remove hard metals in the water with simple additives. Why remove all? Ro water is basically taking out all your minerals so only to replace it? Money wasted. $100 system and another $30 and replacing canisters refilling minerals. Waste of money. More headaches more to control.
> 
> K.I.S.S ( keep it simple stupid)
> 
> ...


With that type of mind set, you are better off keeping fish not shrimps.

I don't understand what you mean by messing with mother nature when we use Ro water and remineralize it, and some how taking ph 7+ water and lowering it with additives is not messing with mother nature?

The basics is that shrimps need a certain parameter, just taking tap water may not work for many people. My tap water is ph 9, tds 110, gh 1, kh 1. Even if i lower the ph to 6.5, i still need to remineralize to keep shrimp, but after i remineralized my water to gh 6, my tds is 250.

So the only viable way is to use RO water, and remineralize to gh 5, and tds 120. I much rather waste 100 bucks in a RO machine, and 30 to replace the filter, than hundreds of dollars worth of shrimps that will die because i cannot provide them the correct parameters and because i dont want to mess with mother nature.

What the op need to do is, determined what is the parameter his shrimps needs, and what is the easiest and most cost effective way to get there. Don't try to force the shrimps to adapt to a parameter to which they are not suitable to.

Experiment outside of the tank.

1. Take your ro water, Test it make sure its gh 0 kh 0. 
2. Take your ro water remineralize with kent's ro right, test gh, test kh. See if kh is increased
3. Take your ro water and put it in a container with one of your seiyu rocks let it stay over night with a bubbler or something to give it some water flow. test gh test kh. 
4. Take your ro water and put it in a container with a small scoop of your substate (carefully remove some). Let it stay over night with a bubbler or hob. Test gh, test kh.

See which ones increases your kh. Replace the ones that is affecting it. Once you figure out the kh problem, then see if your ph will stay low. If not then we can figure out what is casuing the ph. Do one thing at a time. Solve one problem at a time.


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## 52149 (Feb 26, 2012)

aluka said:


> With that type of mind set, you are better off keeping fish not shrimps.
> 
> I don't understand what you mean by messing with mother nature when we use Ro water and remineralize it, and some how taking ph 7+ water and lowering it with additives is not messing with mother nature?
> 
> ...


 If you have what state I quote " every state is different" meaning and let me clarify. Meaning in central states and states with less rain water have more chlorine. Please correct me if I am wrong. California has chlorine but very minimum Ohio has a higher rate of chlorine if I am not mistaken. I am not a scientist but I believe using stress coat or any dechlorinator removes the hard metals and chlorine leaving the good minerals "trace minerals" which shrimp need to maintain a balanced life Span. 

About mother nature I am speaking removing heavy metals and adding in natural stuff such as driftwood, almond leaves, pine cones, banana root, etc. Idk what you are talking about shrimp should be for all people. Here I see all this gh kh ph Tds etc. Everyone is here being precise. Give range. Not exact numbers. There is no way eeryones tank maintains the exact numbers. Casualities are common and could be anything shrimp life Span is only 2 years. 

Please read my post throughly be for posting it seems a lot of people here is misunderstanding what I have to say. This is a hobby not a research center everyone is so serious. Let's collect all details before concluding to the problem. Like I had mention take it back to the basics. Keep it simple. Work from there.


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## aluka (Feb 2, 2013)

We're all giving him something to try to solve his issue. We are not him, none of us are ever going to know exactly what is wrong with his tank. All we can do is give him suggestions as to what we think is wrong and what he can try to fix the problem. We could be right, we could be wrong. We won't know until he has tried it. 

Telling him, go back to the basics, keep it simple, work from there. Really tells him nothing and helps him with nothing. Unless you are telling him to start over, which considering he already has some shrimp in the tank, is not a very good idea. 

Also, i don't know about others, i have never been able to lower my ph sigificantly with tannin (driftwood, IAL, alder cones, etcetc) Maybe 0.1-0.2, and that is with LOTS and LOTS of IAL, where there was so much tannin my water was deep brown. (i experimented before i turned to RO water) Anyone else has sucess with lowering ph with tannins?


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## al4n (Nov 18, 2008)

Only real way to lower pH is starting from the source,


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

ravensgate said:


> Doubtful. Rocks, hardscape, those things can raise KH. The seiryu stone can be raising it, any tap water you've used in the past that could be lingering is causing the KH to be higher, and a remineralizer that might be adjusting the KH can do it. Are you testing the KH of your remineralized water BEFORE you add it to the aquarium? That's the only way you're going to know for a fact what's going on with the RO water. The KH is what is causing your 6.4 pH RO water to rise once it goes in the tank. Either the KH rising is occurring during your remineralization (product) or it's already in the tank. The more 0 KH water you add to the tank the more it's going to lower the KH in the tank, thus lowering the pH. I have had to both lower pH/KH values and raise them in tanks...this is both with buffering substrates and inert. I have raised KH/pH in a tank then had to spend time getting it back down. These are things you can control with water and keeping leeching stones out of your tank. Do some more reading on the relationship between KH and pH.
> 
> Simple contraption, airline tubing, one piece cut and goes in the bucket attaches to airline control two way valve with another piece of airline coming out of that. I set the bucket above my tanks, open the valve up, suck on the bottom end of the hose to get the water moving then put it directed into the tank, and adjust the flow down using the control on the valve by however much I need to. Easy peasy. This is also how to drip acclimate shrimp except of course one end would go in the aquarium the other whatever container the new shrimp are in.


raven, 

i have tested the RO water prior to adding in to the tank even after remineralizing it the KH is 0, GH is 3-4 TDS 130 ish and PH stable at 6.4 without remineralizing the ro water it is kh gh 0 ph 6.4 and tds at 4 

after adding this water into the tank.. test the water in the tank.. hasn't changed much in the past few months (atleast 5 month) ph 7.6, gh 3 kh3 tds 140 temp is always around 73 so im good there.. 

i already took out the rocks 3 days ago.. only thing left in the tank is substrate, ada african drift wood, very very little java fern and moss, an internal filter with substratpro media and foam pad. as of yesterday i added additional dual sponge filter with an airline attached to it.. 

i believe what you said about high KH already existing in my tank is the problem.. perhaps it takes many water changes to bring this down and this is what i am going to be doing for the on coming week try to do a small amount of water change daily to see if i can infact completely swap out the already in the tank bad water.. i am assuming doing 5-10% water change a day will take a good two weeks considering im mixing 0 KH ro water with 3 KH high PH tank water.. 

about the substrate yes there is nothing i can do now .. i havn't cycle the ada soil plus i have no where else i can move the shrimps to.. so the temp option is just to deal with the water change hoping to bring KH and PH down .. this week i should receive bees shrimp mineral GH+ when i get this ill swap over to this product and wont use the ro right anymore (NOTE* the bottle of RO right i have doens't seem to raise the KH - just a side comment). 

thanks for sharing ur thoughts!


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

hi aluka, 

xperiment outside of the tank.

1. Take your ro water, Test it make sure its gh 0 kh 0. YES it is both at 0 prior to mineralizing it
2. Take your ro water remineralize with kent's ro right, test gh, test kh. See if kh is increased after remineralizing KH is still at 0
3. Take your ro water and put it in a container with one of your seiyu already took out the rocks for vinegar test and it was sizzling so i removed all the rocks as of 3 days ago rocks let it stay over night with a bubbler or something to give it some water flow. test gh test kh. 
4. Take your ro water and put it in a container with a small scoop of your substate (carefully remove some). Let it stay over night with a bubbler or hob. Test gh, test kh. i have not done this test.. because i dont want to stress out the two berried shrimp.. but this is the last test i may need to do. 





aluka said:


> With that type of mind set, you are better off keeping fish not shrimps.
> 
> I don't understand what you mean by messing with mother nature when we use Ro water and remineralize it, and some how taking ph 7+ water and lowering it with additives is not messing with mother nature?
> 
> ...


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

*Update*

ok guys so for the past week this is what i have done...

did about 5 water changes 10% each.. with RO water that has the following parameter: GH 6 KH 0 PH 6.4 

I also added a small bag of eheim tort peat into the internal filtration system and a air driven sponge filter 

today i tested the water: here is my parameters: 

PH 7.6 GH 4 KH 1.5-2 somewhere in that range

NO IDEA why the PH is still so high.. i dont know if its the sponge filter pumping O2 into the water and i dont dose excel or pump co2 in to the tank. the good news is KH is dropping and GH is rising. I really want to lower the PH to move into the "acidic" side though atleast for the crystal red that is berried.. since then two shrimp has molted saw a couple of babies popping out and now is hiding somewhere in the moss. 

but can anyone suggest how i would go about lowering PH at this point? keep changing the water? 5 times a week? dont use sponge filter as it pumps too much oxygen into the tank? dose excel? 

any suggestions would be appreciate it!


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## frontosa88 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hi. California water has a high PH. The only way to lower it from my experience is to start out with a thick layer of substrate. I have used ADA, FPS, UP AQUA, substrates with no problems. You don't have enough substrate to lower the PH and keep the water consistent to make your shrimp happy. I know you tried a lot of things to try to stabilize you water. Don't get discouraged. You are half way there. You have babies! Your tank is small so it is harder to keep the water stable. Stop changing your water. You have a light bioload. I would personally reset the tank. I hope this helps.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

Frontosa88, 

I use RO water though ? not tap.. by resetting you mean change redo everything? if so yes, i plan to do that just need to go out and buy another tank. 

thanks!



frontosa88 said:


> Hi. California water has a high PH. The only way to lower it from my experience is to start out with a thick layer of substrate. I have used ADA, FPS, UP AQUA, substrates with no problems. You don't have enough substrate to lower the PH and keep the water consistent to make your shrimp happy. I know you tried a lot of things to try to stabilize you water. Don't get discouraged. You are half way there. You have babies! Your tank is small so it is harder to keep the water stable. Stop changing your water. You have a light bioload. I would personally reset the tank. I hope this helps.


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## frontosa88 (Apr 26, 2008)

Yes. use RO water. LA tap water has too high TDS. Alot of folks in the LA area have water softners in their homes. Do not use tap water. Remineralize with Nutrafin African Cichlid Conditioner. 5 mL for ten gallons RO. Remember to start with a nice thick layer of substrate min. 3 inches. Get a larger tank at leat a 2 foot tank. Use sponge filters. Keep the temp low. Get rid of that internal filter. It will heat up your water. Unless you have hundreds of shrimp don't change water just top off. Keep the TDS around 150. Check out SCAPE. There are a lot of folks down there keeping shrimp. Neos love LA tap water for some reason. CRS, Taiwan bees a different story. I hope this helps.


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