# Fishless/Pure Ammonia cycle: how long until nitrites appear?



## GeToChKn

You SHOULD start to see them around 11days to 14days or so.










Other things can affect though, like temp. If its cool, throw a heater in there and get it warmer, it will encourage the bacteria to grow faster. Also, pH can be a factor. Higher pH, the faster bacteria grow. At a lower pH around 6, the bacteria have a hard time growing, that's why very low pH shrimp tanks run like 10x the filtration needed, just to give the bacteria a chance to grow somewhere along the way.


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## 99RedSi

My temperature was 80F for the previous 10 days; last night I set it to 84F to speed it up! My pH is a gnarly 8.4 in the tank - I kid you not.


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## cjp999

Also, did you seed it with some mulm from a cycled tank?


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## 99RedSi

I didn't seed it with any mulm - none around .


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## cjp999

99RedSi said:


> I didn't seed it with any mulm - none around .


You can always try your LFS. Adding a bit of dirt or compost would work.


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## 99RedSi

Day 17 - ammonia has been elevated for days; 84F; 8.4pH

ZERO NITRITES present, though when I added the 5 drops from the API Nitrite test kit to my 5 mL tube yesterday, it turned to purple while I walked away (before shaking a few times and waiting 5 minutes). I thought "finally, I have nitrites!" but after shaking, it went back to light blue (zero reading). Then after 5 minutes, it was still light blue .

I'm thinking now of getting a shrimp and throw it in the tank to rot and accelerate the process.


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## Nubster

If you have ammonia already then adding the shrimp won't do anything. All it will do is add more ammonia. You want the ammonia to be around 4ppm. Much higher than that can stall or even kill your cycle. It sucks waiting but it does take time. Some longer than others. I think my cycle was close to 6 weeks until I added fish.


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## 99RedSi

Nubster said:


> If you have ammonia already then adding the shrimp won't do anything. All it will do is add more ammonia. You want the ammonia to be around 4ppm. Much higher than that can stall or even kill your cycle. It sucks waiting but it does take time. Some longer than others. I think my cycle was close to 6 weeks until I added fish.


Wait a sec. Much HIGHER than 4ppm can stall or kill the cycle? This is the first I've heard of that. I just add ammonia every few days and it's always showing 8ppm on my API test color chart. (dark, dark greenish-blue). I figured more won't hurt?


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## 99RedSi

I've just confirmed it via some searching online. CRAP. Does that mean I have to start over? Thinking of doing a 25% water change tonight or whatever it takes to reduce to about 4ppm (I can't measure 5 directly with my kit). Thoughts?


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## shinycard255

Yes doing a water change to bring it down to around 4ppm would be a good start. Don't be adding anymore ammonia until it hits 0. Once it hits 0ppm, you should start seeing nitrites, and they will be off the charts (5+ppm). Once this happens, only add 1ppm of ammonia (whenever ammonia hits 0) until nitrites hit 0ppm, this can take upwards of 2-3 weeks so be patient. Once you start seeing 0 nitrites, you can dose ammonia back up to 4ppm. Then once your tank is processing that ammonia/nitrite within a 12 hour period (double 0's) you are cycled. But make to test the 12 hour period for a week to ensure you are fully cycled. 

Hope that helps, if not feel free to PM me and i'll go more in-depth with it


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## 99RedSi

Shiny, THANK YOU, really appreciate it. About how long now, after performing the water change you've recommended, until I see nitrites? 2-3 more weeks? It's like I'm starting completely over :-(. Just want to confirm.. Or is it 2-3 weeks of seeing nitrites before NITRATES appear?


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## cjp999

Dilute your test water to find out where it's at. If you think it is at 8ppm, then try diluting with an equal portion of fresh water and confirm 4ppm, or 3 parts fresh and one part test water and test for 2ppm.


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## shinycard255

Since you said in your original post that it's been 11 days, you should be around day 16 now and you should be seeing some nitrites right now, and they are mostly likely off the chart (5+ppm (DEEP purple)). 

Do the water change to bring your ammonia down to around 4ppm and let it drop to 0 *before* you add anymore ammonia. When you do add more ammonia, only add enough to where it's around 1ppm. Once it hits 0 again, add more ammonia to where it hits 1ppm again. Basically what you are doing is letting the bacteria that breaks down the nitrite build up so you get nitrate. Building up the bacteria to break down the nitrite takes twice as long as the bacteria that breaks down the ammonia. You also want to keep feeding the bacteria that breaks down ammonia which is why I'm telling you to only add 1ppm of ammonia. Once you nitrites hit 0ppm (it will take 2-3 weeks) you can start dosing your ammonia back up to 4ppm. You should already start seeing a little bit of nitrates as the nitrites are being processed. Your nitrates will eventually be off the charts as well once the nitrites start breaking down.

I know I restated what I posted earlier, but just rephrased it a little bit better.

Check out this forum: Fishless cycling
Basically what I am directing you to do is the "Add and Wait Method" listed in the forum. Please read this information over to get a better understanding as they might describe it a little bit better than how I have


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## 99RedSi

Last night I did two 30% water changes, one hour apart. This morning I checked my ammonia levels and I'm finally down to a solid 4ppm (possibly 5ppm).

I should perform one more water change today to drop to 2-3ppm, correct? Not sure if I can get to 1 very easily unless I do a massive water change. Wouldn't 2-3 suffice?

Thanks for all the help, folks!


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## shinycard255

No need to do another water change. You can leave it around 4-5ppm, but anything over that will stall the process. Don't add anymore ammonia until it hits 0, THEN you can add 1ppm of ammonia again.


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## 99RedSi

shiny, thanks for your help!


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## 99RedSi

Ok so I've been following your directions and I think my nitrites are decreasing. The API test kit still shows nitrites at the bottom of the test tube but when I shake it a little, it doesn't change immediately to the light blue - it changes to a light/somewhat medium purple. That was recent in the last 3-4 days.

Also, I'm up to 5-10 ppm of NITRATES now and this value has held steady for about 5-6 days now.

Reason why I'm posting this and my ultimate question: My plants will be in on Wednesday (Anubias, various Crypts, Java Fern, Micro Sword carpet plant). Can I go ahead and plant (I like to do a water change - 25-50% - so that I can move stuff around and plant easier). Can I do the water change AND add the plants? Or since my cycle isn't 100% done yet, do I need to leave the water levels as-is and just plant? And keep dosing 1-2ppm of ammonia for the cycle, assuming the plants will chew it up, correct?

Thanks again!


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## shinycard255

You can throw plants in whenever you would like, but I would honestly wait until the cycle is good to go because it might throw off your ammo readings as plants absorb ammo. 

I put plants in my tank right away and then started fishless cycling (I wish I would have cycled first THEN put plants in). But as long as you are adding quite a few plants (med-heavily planted), you should really have no issues with ammo spikes. 

Just make sure that before you add fish, that your ammo and nitrite readings are good. I've also read that if you are heavily planting you tank, that you can add fish right away and you won't get any spikes what-so-ever. I believe I read that on the same site I sent you to read about the fishless cycle


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## 99RedSi

shinycard255 said:


> You can throw plants in whenever you would like, but I would honestly wait until the cycle is good to go because it might throw off your ammo readings as plants absorb ammo.
> 
> I put plants in my tank right away and then started fishless cycling (I wish I would have cycled first THEN put plants in). But as long as you are adding quite a few plants (med-heavily planted), you should really have no issues with ammo spikes.
> 
> Just make sure that before you add fish, that your ammo and nitrite readings are good. I've also read that if you are heavily planting you tank, that you can add fish right away and you won't get any spikes what-so-ever. I believe I read that on the same site I sent you to read about the fishless cycle


It won't be heavily planted - maybe medium or so. I don't want to be out the cost for the plants, so they are going in on Wednesday when they arrive. I guess I can just dose ammonia for 1-2ppm daily until the cycle is complete and I get fish. 

Should my nitrite COMPLETELY convert to nitrate eventually? 100%? And until then, I just wait it out and keep dosing 1-2ppm daily, correct?


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## shinycard255

Yes, your nitrites will eventually convert 100% to nitrates. Your nitrite test should turn out to be the light blue color. You'll only see the spike to purple really only when the tank is cycling (or if you accidentally do a mini-cycle). Keep adding 1-2ppm of ammonia until you hit 0ppm nitrite. Once you hit 0ppm nitrite, add 4ppm of ammo again until your tank can process it in a 12 hour period. Once it can process it all in a 12 hour period, you are fully cycled and can put ALL your fish in at once as you have enough bacteria to break all the ammo down


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## 99RedSi

I added 4ppm of ammonia the other day to test how quickly it would be consumed and when I checked the tank the next day, all of the ammonia had "processed". I interpret that as I'm very close to being done .


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## shinycard255

Yes, you are getting there, but you will also have to keep an eye on your nitrites. Since it processed so much, you may have gotten another nitrite spike. Look into that and go from there


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## 99RedSi

If I did get another spike, should I perform a large water change at this point? Or not? THANKS for all your help, shiny!!!


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## shinycard255

No, don't do a water change. Let the nitrite process into nitrates. You also need sufficient nitrite bacteria as its also harmful to fish.


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## 99RedSi

My nitrites have finally started going down as of about Wednesday or so. They still so "off the charts" but not as much as they used to. Once I invert the test tube a few times, they show a light purple instead of just clear, transparent blue/green. Progress!

I'm going to be planting later this afternoon and will be leaving out of town until Sunday early evening. Should I dose 5ppm of ammonia so that the tank will have "food" until I get home on Sunday early evening? Or just keep adding the amount I add every 12 hours - 1.5ppm?

Thanks!


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## shinycard255

I would say just dose it back up to 5ppm since you will be gone for a few days if you are worried about it


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## RukoTheWonderDog

I always hate the 'Nitrite Plateau' where there is no change for seems like forever.

Adding plants will effect the levels of Ammonia & Nitrite in the tank, as they will consume these along with the bacteria colonies you are growing. You will need to monitor these levels a bit more often now that plants are going to be chowing down. That being said, now that you have a good deal of your bacteria already grown, the addition of plants may 'complete' the cycle in that it brings ammonia and nitrite down to 0 in the time you want.

Also, ensure that you dilute the ammonia with tank water before dumping it into the tank. I've found that pure ammonia can burn aquatic plants pretty quickly if dumped directly into the tank (whoops!).


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## shinycard255

RukoTheWonderDog said:


> now that you have a good deal of your bacteria already grown, the addition of plants may 'complete' the cycle in that it brings ammonia and nitrite down to 0 in the time you want.


+1 on this. When my ammonia and nitrites reached 0ppm, I immediately added fish. At times my ammonia does jump up to 0.25ppm, but I do a water change to bring it down and then I usually have no problems. Let ammonia and nitrite hit 0ppm, then just throw your fish in and you shouldn't have issues. Keep checking throughout the first week though to make sure you don't get any spikes, and if you do, do a water change


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## lauraleellbp

Ya'll are making this too hard. 

Don't add more ammonia if you're already at 4ppm. (I personally shoot for 2-4 ppm, but it does NOT have to be exact.) Only add more ammonia ONLY once you see the ammonia levels start dropping off. You want to make sure that there is sufficient "food" (ammonia) for the N-bacteria at all times, so they'll keep reproducing and growing the colony.

If you have 8ppm ammonia and want to get back to 4ppm that's very simple- do a 50% water change. The math is pretty easy there. Doing a 50% water change at 4ppm will take you down to about 2ppm, etc etc etc. 

If you want this to go more quickly- add plants. The plants themselves will begin to function as a part of the tank's biofilter, and will also bring in SOME amounts of the nitrogen-fixing bacteria on their leaves and roots.

Basically, you want your tank to be able to metabolize 2ppm of ammonia completely into nitrates within a 24 hour period. (2ppm ammonia a day would reflect a VERY heavily stocked tank.) So at the point you can bring the ammonia level up to 2ppm and 24 hours later have 0ppm ammonia AND 0ppm nitrite remaining (whether it was converted into nitrate by N-bacteria or metabolized by plants does not matter to livestock), you know the cycle is complete.

I do not IMMEDIATELY add fish as soon as the ammonia and nitrite bottom out. I test it- I first do a 50% water change, and then dose 2ppm ammonia once more. If by the following day I am again back to 0ppm ammonia AND 0ppm nitrite, THEN I will do one more 50% water change and start stocking the tank. (You'll need to keep dosing the tank with ammonia if you don't have fish ready to go in, though- otherwise you'll starve off the bacteria you just worked so hard to raise!) 

I do those big water changes in part to bring down the nitrate levels, and also just to be sure that the colonies are stable enough to cope with changes. If doing a water change crashes them, then the cycle is not quite yet ready.


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## 99RedSi

Great info, much appreciated. I think the plants will more or less complete my cycle but I will continue to test and dose ammonia where appropriate. Probably will get fish next Wednesday (6 Julii Corys).


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## 99RedSi

The nitrite levels just won't disappear. It's been 9 days since my last post and NOTHING has changed. Nitrite levels are off the charts, nitrates are 5ppm. I am dosing 1.5mL (ppm) of pure ammonia (Ace Hardware - janitor strength) every 12 hours (twice per day). I am also dosing Seachem Excel, Flourish, and Flourish Iron as well. Lastly, I did a 40% water change with pure distilled water (lowered the pH as well) earlier this week to test the system since my tank can successfully consume 4mL of ammonia in 12 hours.

My plants (various anubias, crypts, some java fern, lilaeopsis mauritiana, hygro kompacta) are weakening considerably and even the crazy strong anubias is starting to show some yellow leaves and a sick-looking rhizome . They came from a member here with very acidic water parameters (pH of 6.5) and my pH of 8.4 wasn't cutting it - thus the water change on Monday.

Now that I have plants, do I have to stop dosing ammonia to protect the plants and find another source to feed the cycle? Maybe simple flake fish food?

HELP! I suppose I'm still in the window of the time the cycle can take overall (6 weeks) as I'm entering the 6th week as of Monday.

I'm setting up DIY Yeast CO2 today to help soften the water further (currently pH of 7.6)..


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## 99RedSi

bump!


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## skurj

stop dosing ammonia

leave the tank alone for a few days and test daily.


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## lobsterbib

Can't recall if I read it here but is it true that a high nitrate level is detrimental to the growth of the ammonia and nitrite processing bacteria?

I am in day 8 of a fishless cycle. I seeded with a filter cartiidge from an established tank. 
My NH3/NO2/NO3 for the last 5 days are

5.00 1.00 5.00 
4.00 1.00 10.00 
4.00 5.00 40.00 
1.00 5.00 80.00 
0.25 3.00 10.00 

The last set of numbers is after a ~50% PWC.
I did the water change on recommendation of the chart on this thread. Should I repeat water changes as the nitrates exceed 50? Is this only to prevent algal bloom or is it hindering thr development of the other beneficial colonies?


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## astrosag

I think you guys are way overdoing this with almost an obsession with numbers. 

For both of you, I would recommend adding plants as soon as possible. Plants will promote bacteria growth and they themselves provide a method for removing ammonia from your system.

Don't get lost in the numbers. You must remember what a "cycled tank" means. 

If your tank is cycled with a combination of plants and bacteria, its still cycled. Its not "fake" cycled or "half" cycled. As long as the plants are in there and ammonia readings go to 0, your tank is cycled. 

Add plants, watch the tank. Add ammonia if your ammonia readings go to 0, retest. A cycled tank will eliminate it almost immediately. Water changes are really only to maintain the level of ammonia you would reasonably expect when your tank is fully stocked. 

I only run strip tests and have cycled tanks in 2-3 weeks with plants. No ppm numbers or anything. Haven't lost a fish yet. You'd be surprised how much plants contribute to keeping your tank ammonia free...and also how much easier it is to cycle a tank with plants. And there's really no reason for not adding plants as soon as possible. 

A fishless tank cycle should really be renamed to a planted cycle. You shouldn't be using fish to cycle and you should be using plants if you're on this website.


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## lobsterbib

I'm comfortable with the concept of cycling; it was simply a curiosity about the process and if nitrites/nitrates hinder the colony development...since it is listed in the second post of this thread.
Seems relevant...


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## astrosag

Sorry didn't mean to pounce!


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## 99RedSi

Well, I threw in a bottle of Safe Start and the cycle is complete - tired of waiting.

I have developed what appears to be BBA on my anubias nana too .

Oh the joy!


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