# Are LEDs cheaper to RUN than t5s?



## Bropez (Apr 1, 2013)

Trying to shave a few dollars off the ole electricity bill. Is it cheaper for me to run t5s or LEDs? The LEDs are more expensive up front, but if they cost half as much to run they will pay for themselves in 2 months.

If it matters these are the lights im comparing.

LED

http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-AgroMax-LED-Strip-Light---White.asp

t5

http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-2-Pack-of-GrowBright-2-Foot-Single-Lamp-T5-Light.asp


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## Lornek8 (Jul 3, 2013)

T5s are less expensive initially but the cost difference can quickly be made up. A quality LED will burn less wattage to get equivalent light and you don't need to change bulbs. At $15-20 a light bulb for T5HO and yearly or more often replacement for the life of the fixture, the T5HOs can exceed the cost of the LEDs over its lifetime.

Just a word of caution. T5HOs are pretty powerful lights. To get the equivalent in LEDs typically takes a quality fixture and will be rather pricey. Without any type of more substanital information about the LED fixture i'd be rather hesitant to compare the 2 links you provided.


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## Bropez (Apr 1, 2013)

What kind of information should I be looking for on packaging if I was going to this store today?


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## Lornek8 (Jul 3, 2013)

Really some type of output data, lumens, lux are a start but can be a bit misleading. PAR is the way to go but probably not available. Maybe someone with a bit more expereince with LEDs can figure out a theoretical output based on the LED info but then this could also vary depending on the quality of the diodes. For the price, my guess is that the LED wouldn't put out anywhere near the light output of the T5HO fixture.


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## Borsig (Aug 1, 2013)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184368

Doesnt this show that they in fact do? The Fennix especially, when compared to a T5HO of the same cost? 

Im going through this very debate right now.

Example a fennix ray 2 costs about as much as an odyesa t5ho. 

The fennix ray 2 has about 15 more PAR than the mid line T5HO units. 

Now if youre talking way high end stuff (thats WAY out of my budget) looks like T5HO wins. But Im looking in the sub 200 range. By the graphs in that link, the Fennix LED wins, hands down.


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## Lornek8 (Jul 3, 2013)

Borsig said:


> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184368
> 
> Doesnt this show that they in fact do? The Fennix especially, when compared to a T5HO of the same cost?
> 
> ...


 
The fennix does. But you cannot compare the fennix with the lights you linked. While a T5HO bulb is pretty much standard and gives fairly predictable light levels, not all LEDs are created equal. The fennix at its price point is pretty much unmatched. I can show you other vendors' LEDs at the same price point that won't compare to the Fennix. The specs may be similar (#diodes, etc) but the light output is not the same because some may use high quality diodes than others and/or they dial in the diodes via the controller a bit differently.

If you look here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160396
you'll see that there are a number of LED fixtures from different vendors that all provide different lighting levels and at different prices. As such, you can't simply say that and LED fixture with XXX number of LEDS will produce XXX PAR.


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## Bropez (Apr 1, 2013)

I really just want to grow low light stuff...I dont need high light at all and im looking for one light to hang over multiple 10 gallon tanks. There will be a sword, maybe a banana plant, and some floaters in each tank.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Sorry to intrude, it's *Finnex,* not Fennix please.


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## Lornek8 (Jul 3, 2013)

Bropez said:


> I really just want to grow low light stuff...I dont need high light at all and im looking for one light to hang over multiple 10 gallon tanks. There will be a sword, maybe a banana plant, and some floaters in each tank.


The question is still the same though. How much light does the LED produce? Going back to the LED article they give this:

*Marineland Single Bright*
_PAR Data(Source) PAR vs. Distance from source_
18-24" fixture: 8 PAR @ 12", 3 PAR @ 24"
24-36" fixture: 10 PAR @ 12", 4 PAR @ 24"
36-48" fixture: 11 PAR @ 12", 4.5 PAR @ 24"
48-60" fixture: 16 PAR @ 12", 6 PAR @ 24"
*Notes:* Probably not suitable for even low light plants unless the tank is very shallow.

So it is very possible to buy an LED strip that won't provide enough light.


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## MondoBongo (Jul 21, 2013)

i run two AI Vegas over my reef tank, and a small Finnex fixture over my (new) planted nano.

i haven't really been able to quantify the energy savings, but i'm confident they're there for the reef tank. the four biggest advantages in my opinion are as follows:

1. they add no heat to the tank at all. my evap rate is substantially less. i also don't need to worry about trying to cool the tank down in the summer, or killing my AC trying to keep the room cool. this is more a difference on the reef since i was originally running a 400W metal halide setup.

2. no bulb replacements.

3. control. the AI's let you adjust all the color bands, have built in timers, and all the other bells and whistles that a gear whore such as myself enjoys.

4. very slim foot print. the Vegas are only about 2" tall, and not very long or deep. they have a fairly unobtrusive hanging kit, and don't take up a ton of space over the tank or look audacious. if i had a hood for the reef they would be easily concealed inside it.

for me LED fixtures are just way more convenient and economical, but it's a personal preference to a large extent.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Bropez said:


> Trying to shave a few dollars off the ole electricity bill. Is it cheaper for me to run t5s or LEDs? The LEDs are more expensive up front, but if they cost half as much to run they will pay for themselves in 2 months.
> 
> http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-2-Pack-of-GrowBright-2-Foot-Single-Lamp-T5-Light.asp


Yes both will grow "stuff" and yes 
LED's are cheaper in the long run...w/ that in mind you could double your pricepoint for the LED to break even in 4 months. and after that.. gravy.. 

Well roughly........ err..your t5's are out of stock ATM..


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## Bropez (Apr 1, 2013)

jeffkrol said:


> Yes both will grow "stuff" and yes
> LED's are cheaper in the long run...w/ that in mind you could double your pricepoint for the LED to break even in 4 months. and after that.. gravy..
> 
> Well roughly........ err..your t5's are out of stock ATM..



Basically what has me kind of confused is the LED says there 165 bulbs rated for 20w. What now is that 20 watts per bulb? Or? I just want my [censored][censored][censored][censored]ty little plants to grow and maybe stop spending an extra 60 dollars a month on my aquarium lights


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## Lornek8 (Jul 3, 2013)

Its 20W total for all the diodes. One of the things to remember about LEDs, as I mentioned before, LED diodes are not all the same. Its not like putting in 4 T5HO bulbs that put out about XXX PAR regardless if you use a corallife bulb or a home depot one. One LED fixture with 165 diodes rated for 20W from brand X might not put out the same amount of light as a 165 diodes rated for 20W from brand Y.


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## Bropez (Apr 1, 2013)

I guess what I'm trying to figure out here(and I know people say not to measure by this) but what will cost more on the electricity bill if theres an LED strip that advertises 20w and a t5 thats 20w. Is it the same?

Or rather if im looking for specific output I just need to do some serious research and find out PAR data(which I have discovered is basically like asking someone why an apple is red)


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

factor in the cost of bulbs. i just purchased 4 39watt 36" bulbs for a tek light fixture for a 40g breeder. on separate breeder, i am running a ray II and a monster ray 36". the cost of the two LED fixtures are well over 200. but factor the single quad fixture plus four brand new bulbs which range from 15-27 dollars a piece and the story becomes more compelling.

lower wattage and cooler operational temps are key points.

the factors to consider in a LED are kelvin range as these are generally fixed unless they are RGB, and number of LEDs on the fixture. RGBs are fantastic for a planted tank but do not provide the white intensity so these usually are supplemented.

i run the ray II and monster ray combo in numerous tanks. the results are amazing. in fairness, i also have to tanks with t5ho, a quad and dual setup... so the perspective for comparison is there... good luck in whichever you decide.


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## Lornek8 (Jul 3, 2013)

Bropez said:


> I guess what I'm trying to figure out here(and I know people say not to measure by this) but what will cost more on the electricity bill if theres an LED strip that advertises 20w and a t5 thats 20w. Is it the same?
> 
> Or rather if im looking for specific output I just need to do some serious research and find out PAR data(which I have discovered is basically like asking someone why an apple is red)


Watts is watts so a 20w led strip will use the same 20w as a 20w t5. The difference will be the amount of light that is produced. It's a bit like the reverse of t12 versus t5. Both produce about the same amount of light just use a different amount of energy. So the key to come away with here is that wattage has nothing do with the amount of light produced. If you simply want the cheapest running light then it would probably be an led fixture, however if your goal is to grow plants then you need to evaluate the amount of light produced and make the determination based upon that.

Btw, the wattage does not equal output statement is as also true between led fixtures as well. This is part of what I was trying to explain.


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## Evilgrin (Oct 2, 2012)

OK to put it very simply in the long term LED's will be far cheaper then anything else currently on the market as far as cost in powering them for the same amount of time as say a T5. This is offset by the initial cost of getting a factory made light fixture.


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## concepts88 (Oct 4, 2012)

Watts is watts. But ray2 is 8 watts vs 20 watts?


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## King of Hyrule (Apr 29, 2013)

Bropez said:


> What kind of information should I be looking for on packaging if I was going to this store today?


If the box says "Finnex FugeRay" or "Finnex FugeRayII" on it, you have made a good choice. :smile:

May I suggest a










P3 International P4460 Kill A Watt EZ Electricity Usage Monitor Under $30 at Amazon. Program in you power rate. Here in Hawaii, that $0.38 KW/hr, and then hook up you tank. As I recall my 24" FugeRay2 used something like $3/mo, while my 10" FugeRay uses something like $1.50/mo.

I'll plug in the meter again and give my number in a few days.


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

On the continent price per kw-hr is at least half that...most pay between 10-20 cents. 

Really only takes some math to figure out how much it will cost you in electricity if you have an idea of how long you'll be running your lights, the wattage, and the price in your area. Granted, that last bit can change but it wont fluctuate much. 

You could run that 20w LED the OP posted 24/7 for the whole year at $0.20 per kw-hr and would spend just over what that monitor costs. Of course no sane person would run their lighting 24/7 so why not spend that money elsewhere?


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

If you go LED I would go DIY. We had a guy from Rapid LED come out and give a presentation at our club recently and he said that even though the LEDs are rated for 50,000 hours or so he their useful lifespan is about 5 years before the output diminishes to 70% or less. The savings are still there, but they are not as significant as most would have you believe. By going DIY you allow yourself the option of only replacing the LEDs themselves when the time comes, which is much less costly than a whole new LED fixture.


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## MichaelKelley (Jun 24, 2013)

Yes, LEDs are cheaper to run than t5s and I have never used t5s for me, I am a big fan of LEDs and they are my first preferences always. You should also go with LED without any second thought.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I think the cost savings is definitely there. Even if you have to replace the entire fixture in five years. 

If you're not trying to push 200 PAR at the substrate or are the typical hobbyist aiming for low-medium light, it's a no-brainer. At least for me.

Look at it this way for a 20 gallon long: Spend $100+ on a decent T5 fixture and replace bulbs every 6-12 months or spend $100 or less on an LED fixture that uses less electricity, produces far less heat and will last a minimum of several years? Big win in my book.

Ditching most of my T5 fixtures for comparable LEDs has cut my electricity bill by nearly half. On top of that, I'm no longer using fans to cool shrimp tanks (even in air conditioned rooms some of the T5 fixtures were really heating things up) and I'm not worrying about spending $15-$20 per bulb for decent replacement bulbs.


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## MarkM (Sep 16, 2012)

*T5 v LEDs*

I have had a T5HO fixture for years and one of my complaints about it is the noise created by the fan. Many of the LED fixtures do not have fans and create no noise.

I have done a bit of research on LEDs and have just purchased a new 60" fixture from http://www.buildmyled.com/

I bought a par sensor a year ago attempting to get my lighting correct for a low tech planted set up. The standard LED fixture I purchased puts out a great deal more par light than I need. So, I measured the par value that works with the T5s and will adjust the new LED fixture with a manual dimmer to equal the par value.

Using the LED fixture at full power it consumes approx 1/4th the power of my T5 fixture. I will dim the unit to produce about 60% of the max power so my consumption should go down nicely from the 25%

The LEDs are rated at 50,000 hours so running them 8 hours a day they will last a long time.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

MarkM said:


> I bought a par sensor a year ago attempting to get my lighting correct for a low tech planted set up. The standard LED fixture I purchased puts out a great deal more par light than I need. So, I measured the par value that works with the T5s and will adjust the new LED fixture with a manual dimmer to equal the par value.


sounds fun..Please keep us posted...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

King of Hyrule said:


> If the box says "Finnex FugeRay" or "Finnex FugeRayII" on it, you have made a good choice. :smile:
> 
> May I suggest a
> 
> ...


what someone needed to do is build one of those w/ a timer... 
I've looked at the bigger ones (well over $30) but I also wanted an on/off timer incorporated.. Best of both worlds.. sadly, it is not produced AFAIKT...


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## MarkM (Sep 16, 2012)

One more comment about LED versus incandescent lamps. The old myth that you needed so many watts per gallon has died. Not understanding that certainly cost me a lot of money, and many others. My original tank came with T8 and my 50 g tank had I think just over 20 watts of light. So, I bought a dual T5HO with 108 watts. My plants did not like that any better. Changed to 6700K T5HO bulbs and the plants still did not thrive. I bought a par meter which reads micro moles of light intensity. I found that my dual t5HO provided over the max listed high light value, I was burning my plants. I tried 1 bulb and it brought things down into the mid range of the high value. Tried T5NO 6700k bulbs and two got things down to the top of mid scale. One T5NO put me into the mid part of the low light range. The plants are growing.
LEDs are the same in that 1W of LED light does not equal 1W of florescent light. The cost of the 1 watt is of course the same. However the usable light made as a result of consuming that 1 Watt is much different. Just like florescent tubes produce different light intensities and colors LEDs do also.
Mark


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

MarkM said:


> One more comment about LED versus incandescent lamps. The old myth that you needed so many watts per gallon has died.


Hi,
That watts per gallon rule must come from the time when planted aquarists had to put as many T12 bulbs over their tank as they could to have high light tanks. I suppose it can be used for T12 maybe T8 bulbs, but that's all. 

I do not think it can be used for T5 and surely not for T5HOs, CFLs either. I did use 2 -23 watts CFL over a 20 tall tank in the past, thinking I had medium light, but since I read on this great forum it appears that I had close to or high light.

And having a good reflector or not can change the amount of light dramatically. It must be taken into account. A good reflector can save you a lot of electricity and is more ecological.

Michel.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

54W total output at max power. 150-200PAR at the substrate hung 2ft high.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=388441

LED is the way to go.


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## JDS1212 (Mar 18, 2012)

The thing I like about T5s are the flexibility you have with different bulb combinations.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

JDS1212 said:


> The thing I like about T5s are the flexibility you have with different bulb combinations.


Different LED colors?


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

But with T5s you're limited by the number of bulbs...usually one or two.


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## JDS1212 (Mar 18, 2012)

gus6464 said:


> Different LED colors?


not with the unit that the OP was thinking of getting.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Cheaper, more flexible, more colors, more "toys" .. stick a fork in it, florescents are done.. 

:hihi::hihi::hihi::hihi::hihi::hihi:


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## Current USA (Jun 5, 2013)

With the price of aquarium LEDs now, it honestly doesn't make sense to use T5's anymore. Higher quality LED fixtures use LEDs that last 50,000 hours for photosynthetic purposes. Likely longer if used just for lighting up your aquarium. That's about 12 years of light. How much would you spend on T5s if you used it for 12 years? It will likely need a ballast replacement, housing would fall apart etc. Not to mention the electricity savings..


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

HI,
There were reports, in the past, of led fixtures rated 30000 hours on which many leds burned just after one year. From a certain company I will not mention, whose name begins with "M". But i think now quality has improved.

Still, leds have come a long way. They can fail or another component of the fixture can fail, all electronics can. But still, normally you can expect it to last for a long time, a lot longer than fluorescent bulbs.

Got frustrated with bulbs when a T5 I purchased for nearly 20$ failed after 4 months.

Michel.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

micheljq said:


> HI,
> There have reports, in the past, of led fixtures rated 30000 hours on which many leds burned just after one year. From a certain company I will not mention, whose name begins with "M". But i think now quality has improved.
> 
> Still, leds have come a long way. They can fail or another component of the fixture can fail, all electronics can. But still, normally you can expect it to last for a long time, a lot longer than fluorescent bulbs.
> ...



W/ the use of "electronic ballasts" the failure field is equalized..and possibly greater since the elec. ballasts are subject to higher V and don't like heat.. sooo many failed CF's not coming even close to their estimated lifetime..  and let us not forget all that mercury...


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

What kills an LED unlike bulb based lights is heat. People should treat an LED like a CPU. With proper cooling an LED can last up to it's rated life and possibly longer. That is why you can overdrive an LED without much ill-effects if you have the proper cooling.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I am personally convinced that if you buy/build the right fixture with comparable features, LED fixtures are going to be cheaper outside of electricity costs. It's hard to find bulbs for under $15 or so, I usually pay $20. 

If I had a 2 bulb fixture, that is $120 in 3 years without accounting for running costs. I feel that 3 years is about the minimum I would use a fixture for. It should last a lot longer than that, but that about how long I will commit to a certain tank size, try a newer technology, or just make a change. 

Add to the fact that newer technology has a higher resale value, you gain there if you are the type to sell of your old stuff. I have not tried to sell my PC fixture but I doubt it will fetch much, if anything, these days.


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## fearsome (Feb 16, 2013)

I did not read all the replies so sorry if I missed it. 

But one thing rarely mentioned is how fast you will make your money back on a LED light. This is incredibly important for a couple reasons. 

1 how long will LEDs really last, it is known that when T5s first released their life spans were glorified and they didn't really last that long. When CFLs hit the market the same claims were made, 5,7,10 years for a CFL. But in reality they rarely lasted that long because the electronics would fail separate from the bulb before that, or you would just break them. 

Now we enter the LED shift and we are faced with the same promises, even longer lasting lights Except, if they last so long then why does Finnex only warranty their fixtures for a measly 6 months? HMMM something does not add up. With CFLs at least they put silly warranties on them knowing you would never keep the package that long. But with expensive LEDs in the multi hundred to thousand dollar range you can bet people will keep that box and want to make good on a warranty.

So here is the reality check. the cheapo electronics you buy in most of the LEDs which are made in China probably wont last as long as the diodes themselves. And this is proven by the fact that very few Aquarium oriented LED makers will put a serious warranty that matches the supposed lifetime of the diodes on their product. There is a very real possibility you will drop $150 on a LED and have it die on you after 7 months when it is 1 month out of warranty. 

A lot of people here mention efficiency but do not forget to mention over driving. A cheap way to push more light out of a fixture is simply to give it more juice. Of course this will lower the lifespan, so are many of the aquarium LED makes just over driving their LEDs so they can get more light out of a cheaper diode? Is this why they wont back their products up?

Next up is the whole problem with the market itself. The LED market is on fire, that means people are over paying for most things. And it is moving at an incredible rate, hardly a month goes buy without a new product being released with the newest fanciest combo of LEDs and hottest new diodes with this or that efficiency or spectral output. So even if your LED does last you 20 years will you still be using it? Probably not because you will want the latest light that has a better spectrum or the sleekest look etc.... 

Finally the prices will continue to plummet over time. It is probably not wise to buy a really expensive LED now because next year the one with the same capabilities will come out for half the price. 


So in conclusion what you have to ask is, if I only use this fixture for 1 year will I be happy with the amount I spent? Or 2 years, or 3 or what? But I think it would be a mistake to think that will get great use out of an LED for 10 years for many reasons. If you can save enough on electricity and bulbs in just 2 years it might be worth it otherwise you will need more reasons to jump. 

Personally for me heat and size was a large issue in a very limited hood space so I was willing to buy an LED, I went with a finnex ray 2 because it had a good amount of light and was pretty cheap, I honestly don't believe it will last forever but like I said I am not going to drop big bucks on a higher end brand that has a longer warranty when I know next year I can probably buy something better for half price. In fact I still haven't built my tank yet and my warranty is already over, how sad is that lol?

Note that I am not picking on finnex they are just an easy example because I own one and we all know them, but most of the LED brands fall into this stereotype.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Fearsome-I have had plenty of CFL bulbs last more than 5 years. Actually, so many of the bulbs in my recording studio are daylight CFL bulbs replaced from my tanks over time. Any daylight bulb in a lamp is atleast 3-4 years old because that is how old the bulbs are over my aquarium. Probably need replacement but are still growing plants well. 

Led's are far from a new technology, even high powered LED's have been on the market for home/commercial use for years. They still are not affordable, IMO, yet, off the shelves but they have existed for quite some time now.



That said, I still have yet to try LED's for the reasons you speak of. Until I can get more features than available on most moderately priced LED's, I am just waiting to see what happens. Finnex has very little competition in the moderately priced LED market and though I am sure they make good lights, I wonder what will be out in even the next few months, much less the next few years. I am sure I will make the change over soon but I need some other companies to get in the ring first.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

talontsiawd said:


> Fearsome-I have had plenty of CFL bulbs last more than 5 years. Actually, so many of the bulbs in my recording studio are daylight CFL bulbs replaced from my tanks over time. Any daylight bulb in a lamp is atleast 3-4 years old because that is how old the bulbs are over my aquarium. Probably need replacement but are still growing plants well.


Strange, I did use Sylvania 23W - 6500K CFLs. I had to replace them each 4-5 months. They were used 10 - 12 hours a day, 4-6 inches above the water line.

Michel.


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## krzys (Nov 15, 2012)

Same experience here , they lasted only a dozen of weeks


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## King of Hyrule (Apr 29, 2013)

I have a meter on my 24" FugeRay2 here's my report...

The FugeRay2 is on a timer with a 12hrs on/off cycle.
Metered for 48:19 hrs, power usage reported at 0.47 kw. 

I don't have access to and T5 or T8 so I can't give you any other data. If anyone on the island wants to borrow the meter PM me. 



I have CyberPower 1350AVR UPS (from costco), feeding a Fluval 206, and the 24" Fugeray2 (and timer). Due to where I leave I don't use a heater. I'm moving the meter measure the complete hardware setup. I'll need at least 24 hours for a complete reading.


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

One important consideration in the T5 verses LED debate that hasn't been mentioned is that the cost savings for LEDs can quickly get wiped out if you have to replace them or repair them. You can repair almost anything in a T5 fixture with off the shelf parts. 

Some of the people that used early versions of LED lighting spent a fortune for something that broke down in a short period of time. If you are going to go with LEDs, be sure to get a top quality fixture.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

micheljq said:


> Strange, I did use Sylvania 23W - 6500K CFLs. I had to replace them each 4-5 months. They were used 10 - 12 hours a day, 4-6 inches above the water line.
> 
> Michel.


That is odd, especially because I often use no name CFL's. I did notice that my higher wattage CFL's would completely fail earlier than lower wattage ones but that was still over the course of years. I never had them over a tank for long because they were too powerful, that was just in light sockets for room lighting.


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## rwong2k (Dec 24, 2004)

DaveK said:


> One important consideration in the T5 verses LED debate that hasn't been mentioned is that the cost savings for LEDs can quickly get wiped out if you have to replace them or repair them. You can repair almost anything in a T5 fixture with off the shelf parts.
> 
> Some of the people that used early versions of LED lighting spent a fortune for something that broke down in a short period of time. If you are going to go with LEDs, be sure to get a top quality fixture.


yeah that can be true , I spent a fortune on the earlier aquaray products and after a year of usage the led burnt out. good thing there's a 5 year warranty on it but its still a hassle

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


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