# ThriveC + Excel - Redundant? Algae/Diatom issues



## Starálfur (Jul 14, 2008)

Soo I'm having issues with diatoms and some green algae on the walls of my 75G tank, I acquired this tank already established from craigslist, it was overstocked but I gave some fish away. Planted with anubias and some dwarf sags. I'm struggling with nitrates not going below 40 (might be higher), diatoms, and green algae. I started dosing some ThriveC. Later I was reading excel could help with algae issues, and I was thinking increasing plant growth would help decrease nitrates, so I ordered some, but I forgot ThriveC already has some carbon in it. Should I return the Excel or give it a shot, dosing both the ThriveC + Excel? Does ThriveC increase nitrates?

Thanks


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## Proteus01 (Mar 12, 2017)

For me, I would use elbow grease on that algae for a while (perhaps a month or so) before adding anything to ‘cure’ it. Even an established tank can go through some new tank syndrome after a big move. That algae isn’t harming anything but your eyes. 

I’d suggest giving it more time to let plants recover and take over. Waterchange to keep Nitrates down until then, and either stop or greatly reduce ferts until the plants show need with new growth. Also consider adding more plants. Treat it like a new tank, in summary. 

In my recent experience, pennywort works great as a floater, and will be easy to remove/reduce later, as another option besides typical floaters. 
That’s my low tech way, at least.

Edit: just remembered that I’ve heard about your tank before. You got it in November, right? Going back and re-reading that thread now, trying to remember what advice you already received.


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## Starálfur (Jul 14, 2008)

Thanks! Yes November. That's where I got the advice to add ThriveC. So you think no Thrive and no Excel? I was thinking helping the plants would help my algae issues, but I can see how it could be the reverse. I'll look into getting some pennywort.


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## Starálfur (Jul 14, 2008)

Just ordered some pennywort.  Also just cleaned the tank using my new rubber scraper tool, made getting rid of the diatoms much easier. Did not dose anything. 

I'm just so antsy to get these nitrates down so I can add more fish. Currently only 2 angels in the whole 75g. Hoping to add 6 Red Phantom Tetras and 6 Lemon Tetras to liven it up.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Starálfur said:


> Soo I'm having issues with diatoms and some green algae on the walls of my 75G tank, I acquired this tank already established from craigslist, it was overstocked but I gave some fish away. Planted with anubias and some dwarf sags. I'm struggling with nitrates not going below 40 (might be higher), diatoms, and green algae. I started dosing some ThriveC. Later I was reading excel could help with algae issues, and I was thinking increasing plant growth would help decrease nitrates, so I ordered some, but I forgot ThriveC already has some carbon in it. Should I return the Excel or give it a shot, dosing both the ThriveC + Excel? Does ThriveC increase nitrates?
> 
> Thanks


ThriveC and Excel (NilocG equivalent is Enhance) are two entirely different products. ThriveC has the fertilizers and Excel has gluteraldehyde, which is a carbon supplement and will kill certain types of algae when dosed to do so.

If you are serious about having a planted tank, tell us about your light source and try to find the PAR values at the substrate for your light. You may be able to find the PAR values by searching this forum. Everything starts with light. Since you don’t inject CO2, your light should not be very intense, nor should you have a photoperiod that is too long for your light intensity. Too much light and you will have unhealthy plants and lots of algae.

ThriveC is a good all-in-one fertilizer for your type of tank (considered a low-tech tank since you don’t inject CO2). In a low-tech tank, Excel/Enhance will help a lot in providing some carbon for the plants, but it will not come close to injecting CO2. Dosing both is a good idea.

Clean, clean, clean! Clean the top of your substrate if you don’t have good circulation to sweep it constantly. Circulation that causes all of your plants to move very slightly is good. Clean your filter so that mulm doesn’t build up in it. This may mean once a week. You will have to judge after you’ve done it a few weeks. Clean your water by changing it. Initially, do a 50% change and then maybe 30% a week. You can adjust this as you gain experience.

If you have any other test results, such as PO4, GH, KH, TDS and pH, it will help us. If you are serious about the hobby, it would be a good idea to get test kits for these things. Also, what is your substrate?

It will do you no harm to read this:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...280537-what-your-pro-tips-2.html#post11121285


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## Starálfur (Jul 14, 2008)

@Deanna, thank you for the detailed response! I returned the Excel for now as I wanted to save some $$ if not needed, also, according to the ThriveC details - "It also contains a non-glut based source of bio-available carbon which provides 2-3x the amount of other carbon supplements." Do you think it's still worth it to dose Excel? Or maybe I should only be dosing Excel and not ThriveC since I'm struggling with nitrates? I'm just a bit worried about people saying Excel can harm fish.

I think my photo period is okay, I only have a tiny bit of green algae, I'm having more problems with diatoms and I hear they don't require light? Anyway at the moment I forget my exact timer settings and lighting details but I will reply back later with more info. Will also look into getting more testing materials. Will also be doing more cleaning & clean the filter again soon.

In addition to the pennywort, I've ordered more anubias and a few more dwarf sags. Hoping I can get it heavily planted enough that the nitrates resolve themselves.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Starálfur said:


> ThriveC details - "It also contains a non-glut based source of bio-available carbon which provides 2-3x the amount of other carbon supplements." Do you think it's still worth it to dose Excel? Or maybe I should only be dosing Excel and not ThriveC since I'm struggling with nitrates? I'm just a bit worried about people saying Excel can harm fish.


I don’t know what that claim is based upon. There is nothing in the ingredient list that would justify such a claim. The only thing I can think of is something related to the Kreb’s cycle, but these theories have been tested and shown to be unsubstantiated, but harmless. It sounds kinda ‘fishy’ to me, but I think we should let @nilocg address it. Who knows, maybe it ‘s a dramatic breakthrough, but I would think the price would be closer to that of an equivalent weight in gold if it was.

I would continue dosing Excel or Enhance for a carbon supplement. These have been shown to work.


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## CMcNam (Dec 5, 2018)

I dose Colin's Enhance daily, 5 mL a day and 25 mL after a water change, and it's been worth every penny. I ordered ThriveC to make my life even easier and plan to use both. Follow the instructions on the bottle and you'll be fine.


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## ZEUSFL (Oct 5, 2018)

If you want to save money, instead of using Excel, you can use MetriCide 28 that is basically the same thing just in another concentration. Excel is 1.5% of Glutaraldehyde when MetriCide 28 is 2.5%. 

What I do is take a 500ml empty Excel bottle or equivalent and fill 300ml of MetriCide 28 and add 200ml of RO water and you will make the exact doses of excel. 
You can buy a gallon of MetriCide in amazon for about $20 or less. I have the exact same result compared with Excel for much less. Never had any problem with my fish or shrimps. 

I combine in my main tank CO2 + MetriCide dosing every first light in the morning. Also, I use Flourish every 2 days, potassium and Iron. I use my Kessil lights in full blast for about 10 hours a day without any algae problem and the plants grow really fast and healthy. 

Just my 20 cents.


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## Cichlid-140 (Sep 28, 2018)

Be aware that Glutaraldehyde is a little more hazardous than household bleach, especially to the eyes. Use with appropriate caution.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

ZEUSFL said:


> If you want to save money, instead of using Excel, you can use MetriCide 28 that is basically the same thing just in another concentration.


Don't use Metricide 28! It has surfactants in it (think: detergent). You want the plain Metricide 14-day product. Also, if you use Metricide, be sure NOT to use the activator that comes with it.

I used Metricide when I had my low-tech tank. Although it is cheaper per ounce, I found myself throwing a lot of it out because it expired. So, you need to figure out if the lower cost per ounce, given the amount needed until expiration, makes sense vs. buying smaller quantities of Enhance or Excel.


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## Starálfur (Jul 14, 2008)

@ZEUSFL @Deanna

So over at aquaria central it was recommended I avoid using Excel, for the following reasons: https://www.sunkengardens.net/blog/...-liquid-co2-and-the-dangers-of-glutaraldehyde

That link does seem to explain that Excel will kill algae, but it also makes it sound pretty dangerous for humans/fish. Also says Metricide isn't the same. 

Still open to hear the thoughts from you guys, for now I'm avoiding it, although if I continue to have algae issues I might use it for a little while eventually.


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## ZEUSFL (Oct 5, 2018)

Starálfur said:


> @ZEUSFL @Deanna
> 
> So over at aquaria central it was recommended I avoid using Excel, for the following reasons: https://www.sunkengardens.net/blog/...-liquid-co2-and-the-dangers-of-glutaraldehyde
> 
> ...


Yes, I read this before. I always use latex gloves when I handle the Excel or MetriCide. 

The truth is that I see the results and the benefit of killing algae. I have shrimps, fish and plants in multiples tanks and nothing happen to them in a year. 
I can see a huge difference if I stop using it, especially in my tanks without CO2 injections. The plants grow fast and green. I respect the others opinions but I witness the results.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Starálfur said:


> @ZEUSFL @Deanna
> 
> So over at aquaria central it was recommended I avoid using Excel, for the following reasons: https://www.sunkengardens.net/blog/...-liquid-co2-and-the-dangers-of-glutaraldehyde
> 
> ...


Well, you’ll have to do some research to come to your own conclusions. In essence, I agree with many of the warnings in the article, but it is sensationalized in that link. I am not aware of anyone having developed lupus from using glutaraldehyde and just the fact that the author made such an implication should cause you to question everything stated in the article. People can develop autoimmune (allergic) response to just about anything. You could go down a whole list of autoimmune responses and find MS, lupus, diabetes, arthritis, common allergies and many more. While the author may believe that this can cause lupus, the fact is that medical science does not know what trigger causes lupus. Some triggers are known that cause common allergies.

It is very important to handle gluteraldehyde correctly, as it is with any hazardous product such as bleach, acetone and other solvents. Definitely keep it out of reach from children. If it were known to be as dangerous as suggested in the article, Amazon would not be permitted to sell it. I would also advise not drinking any of the ferts we pour into our aquarium. Glutaraldehyde is used in hospital settings as a disinfectant …so is alcohol (some people do put alcohol into their tanks).

As for efficacy of glutaraldehyde in planted tanks, I disagree with the author. I, and many others, have seen dramatic differences in plant growth between using it and not using it, especially in low-tech tanks. It delivers much more benefit than simply relying on atmospheric CO2. There is no such thing, at this point, as liquid CO2 and I agree that that wording should not be applied to glutaraldehyde products. None of us know how Seachem makes Excel, that is a well-guarded secret. So, it is correct that we cannot say that Excel is identical to Metricide. Pressurized CO2 is much better and much safer. There is no doubt in that, but I think I can assure you that more of us have killed fish with CO2 than with glutaraldehyde. Many things can be deadly if misused.

I have never killed a fish with glutaraldehyde, even at doses many times higher than those recommended by Seachem. It definitely kills hair (red) algae.


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## zachshap (Dec 17, 2018)

What are your PO4 levels? If you have a diatom problem this could be the issue. 

The general purpose niloc liquid has nitrogen in it and will contribute to your total nitrate but nitrate is pretty easily reduced with a water change. Maybe measure before and after a W/C and hold off on the ferts dose until you know your NO3 post water change. 

If you don't add CO2 then I believe you want half the recommended dose of the niloc ferts.


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## CMcNam (Dec 5, 2018)

Starálfur said:


> @*ZEUSFL* @*Deanna*
> 
> So over at aquaria central it was recommended I avoid using Excel, for the following reasons: https://www.sunkengardens.net/blog/...-liquid-co2-and-the-dangers-of-glutaraldehyde
> 
> ...


There is zero research or evidence provided with that article. None. They link to a study of mice and here's the conclusion:




> Under the conditions of these 2-year inhalation studies, there was





> _no evidence of carcinogenic activity_* of glutaraldehyde in male or female F344/N rats exposed to 250, 500, or 750 ppb. There was _no evidence of carcinogenic activity _in male or female B6C3F mice exposed to 62.5, 125, or 250 ppb. Incidences of nonneoplastic lesions of the nose were significantly increased in male and female rats and mice.


 
Their evidence doesn't even back up the panic they're trying to induce, and while the study is well done and does show _some_ negative effects, it was conducted over two years with only 100 mice and rats inhaling varying amounts specifically to determine what the actual effects were. The negative effects were basically induced. This is how you get pseudo-scientific, homeopathic @#$%^&*( that ends up harming more people than it helps.

Follow the directions and don't dose more than recommended. As with all chemical products, the dose determines the effects, and all sorts of things are lethal in the right doses that we all intake and put in our aquariums daily.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

Since no one has addressed the elephant in the tank (figuratively), I will...
With regard to high nitrates, fast growing plants (especially floating plants) will use ammonia (and sometimes/rarely) nitrates as their nitrogen source, resulting in lower tank nitrates. However the plants you have aren't really fast growers. Water Wisteria, Water Sprite, Anacharis, Frogbit, others might be options.
> Keep a clean tank/filter.
> Gravel substrate - vacuum gravel routinely (coarse sand is better!)
> Feed high quality food. Lower quality foods with fish meal and copious amounts of grain/grain starch as binder/filler result in more waste because fish can't process it.
> Feed lightly, even skipping a day or two if you don't have fry.
> Test the nitrates in your source water! More and more, especially in agricultural areas, source water has high nitrates. Doing water changes with nitrates in source water doesn't lower tank nitrates much, if any.
> Theory: Nitrates get a bad rap. It's our measure of pollution in tank water, but sometimes I think nitrates are not as bad as we think, but they keep bad company. There are other pollutants that we don't/can't measure. So even if we have some nitrates in our source water, water changes still benefit as other pollutants are flushed out with the old tank water.

Now for gluteraldehyde! I don't like it. Something that's used to STERILIZE heat sensitive medical and dental equipment just can't be good for fish or beneficial bacteria. Use it only if you absolutely have to to kill stubborn algae (like BBA) otherwise, just say no and seek other means to balance nutrients and light in the tank.


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