# CSM-B vs flourish and algae



## reignOfFred (Jun 7, 2010)

I am wondering if any experts might know what CSM has or does not have that flourish has or does not have. 

The reason I ask is that I recently made the switch to CSM and suddenly hair algae has started up again, though it has been going extremely well with no algae growth. This switch is the only change i have made.

thanks!


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

CSM+B is strictly a trace (micro) mix.

Flourish contains a bit of nitrate and potassium, neither of which are micros. A little more magnesium than CSM+B. A different form of iron (ferrous sulfate instead of Fe EDTA). And of course, differences in the ratios of the other minor traces, none of which are usually considered separately in this hobby.

I recently worked out a DIY Flourish recipe. It's designed around matching the iron content, which is the most important micro, and which should be kept equal when switching from Flourish to CSM+B. The last three ingredients are optional and fill in as many of the other differences as possible using common dry ferts.

250ml distilled water
1 tbsp. CSM+B
1/16 tsp. KNO3
1/4 tsp. K2SO4
1/16 tsp. MgSO4


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## reignOfFred (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks DC, so CSM generally has enough iron that I wouldn't need extra?


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## reignOfFred (Jun 7, 2010)

It is a high light, injected setup, but not very high light.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Dose as much CSM+B as required to provide adequate iron. The EI recommendations are a good starting point, but every tank is different; so watch for yellowing leaves which may indicate deficiency. Or figure out from the recipe provided the equivalent dose to what you were providing before from Flourish.

By doing that, the other micros are at good levels too, with the exception of calcium and magnesium. They're primarily provided by tapwater, or RO with a GH booster.

Unlike the ferrous sulfate in Flourish, the Fe EDTA in CSM+B is only 100% stable at 6.5pH and below. The higher the pH is over that, the faster it precipitates out of the water and becomes unavailable. At 7.2pH, I don't notice the loss even though it's occurring. But at 8.0pH I've had to dose up to 300% the normal amount to keep enough iron in solution. In CO2 injected tanks like yours this usually isn't an issue due to the low pH, but I figured I'd mention it just in case.


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## reignOfFred (Jun 7, 2010)

Ok, my pH is 7.8 out of tap and it does rise back to this each night, which means I must lose iron at night. I've been dosing extra flourish iron and perhaps will keep doing so, so that way I know I've got that covered. The expense of 1 seachem product I can handle. My water is very hard, so I won't worry about calcium and magnesium.

So now it's a question of how much of that CSM mix to actually use of that 250 ml.

My understanding, which could be wrong, is that ideal iron levels are about .3 to .5 ppm, so if 5 ml of that solution brings my 29 gallon tank to .5ppm iron, would I dose this 5ml every other day or so? Sorry if my questions sound dumb, I'm trying to get a handle on this ei thing - it's like starting the learning all over.

Also, if CSM is just micro, then the only macro missing from your list is phosphorus. Do you not dose this?


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## PelicanFarts (Mar 1, 2011)

Do you turn off you c02 at nigyt? That may be why your ph increases. Just a thought.


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## reignOfFred (Jun 7, 2010)

I run an air stone at night to oxygenate the tank and disperse the co2 so it doesn't build up. I'm ok with the pH fluctuations, as are the fish, so the only concern in this respect are how the water is holding on to my nutrients.


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## Hannothan (Dec 26, 2010)

Ferrous sulfate? My bottle of flourish says ferrous gluconate under the "derived from" section of the guaranteed analysis.

When I dose flourish, my water always goes cloudy... I believe it's due to the iron precipitating because my water has a pH of 8.3 after all the CO2 is bled out.

Would DPTA be a better chelating agent for higher pH water?

Hoping it will because I just ordered some


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

*@Hannothan:* You're right, it's ferrous gluconate. I keep getting those two mixed up. I haven't seen mention of high pH causing that to precipitate out, but it may be possible.

Fe DTPA is definitely a better chelating agent at high pH.

*@reignOfFred:* Phosphorus is excluded from Flourish because some setups/systems require minimizing it. If they'd included it, that would limit the usefulness of the product. Instead they provide a separate product for that. Not to mention phosphorus reacts with iron in concentrated liquid solution, at least for Fe EDTA/DTPA; I'm not sure about ferrous gluconate.

The amount of nitrate/potassium in Flourish is minimal. In a high light tank, you must add extra nitrate, potassium, and phosphorus along with Flourish or the clone recipe using CSM+B.

As for dosing either Flourish or the clone, here's how to work out all the details.

The desired level in a tank is 0.1-0.2ppm. A little more is fine.

The basic EI dosing recommendation for 20-40g high light, heavily planted tanks is 1/16 tsp. CSM+B every other day.

In a 29g, according to the Fertilator, 1/16 tsp. CSM+B adds 0.16ppm per dose.

There is 1 tbsp. (or 3 tsp.) of CSM+B in the recipe I gave. Divide that by 1/16 tsp, and you have 48 doses.

Since the CSM+B is dissolved in 250ml of water, divide that by 48, and you get 5.2ml. Round that to the nearest whole number, and 5ml is your dose, every other day. Since my clone contains the same amount of iron as Flourish, that dosage works for Flourish as well (excluding any differing loss due to high pH and the different iron forms).


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

Flourish Comprehensive
--------------------------------
Total Nitrogen 0.07% 
Available Phosphate ( P2O5) 0.01% 
Soluble Potash 0.37%
Calcium (Ca) 0.14%
Magnesium (Mg) 0.11% 
Sulfur (S) 0.2773% 
Boron (B) 0.009% 
Chlorine (Cl) 1.15% 
Cobalt (Co) 0.0004%
Copper (Cu) 0.0001% 
Iron (Fe) 0.32% 
Manganese (Mn) 0.0118% 
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0009% 
Sodium (Na) 0.13% 
Zinc (Zn) 0.0007% 

CSM+B only has Calcium/Sulfur/Magnesium/Boron..

you're missing a lot not using flourish comprehensive IMHO.. im switching to dry ferts myself but still sticking with flourish comprehensive and trace for these reasons.. no algea at all and growth is still awesome.. just my 2 cents and limited experience though


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

HolyAngel said:


> CSM+B only has Calcium/Sulfur/Magnesium/Boron..


That's way off. CSM is:

Iron 7.0%
Manganese 2.0%
Magnesium 1.5%
Zinc 0.4%
Copper 0.1%
Molybdenum 0.05%

CSM+B also has boron, I don't know the exact amount.

As for the other missing ingredients that are found in Flourish:

Calcium, sulfur, chlorine, and sodium are common elements, normally available in excess from other sources like tapwater or fish food/waste.

Nitrogen and potassium (potash) are macros, needed in great quantity by plants. There's so little in Flourish it's barely a useful addition. If you're dosing them separately anyway, there's no need to have them in your trace ferts.

And as far as I know, no one has ever demonstrated a need for Cobalt at all.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Flourish. I just don't want to see CSM+B misrepresented.


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## reignOfFred (Jun 7, 2010)

Very helpful DarkCobra, and it gives me a good starting point. I think I've been overdoing it and I'm going to tone it down and build up. I have been dosing nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus separately, as well as extra iron - but phosphorus is the one element that I might not use enough of because from what I understand it's the one that is easiest to overkill.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Phosphorus is also the most misunderstood in my opinion. Some people claim excesses will cause algae, and others claim it won't. I think they're both right.

Specifically, _potassium_ phosphate is useful to plants, and even large overdoses don't cause algae, so overkill with that is not an issue.

But there are many other forms of phosphates, that are generated from excessive fish waste and organic decay, or come in from a poor water supply; that aren't as useful to plants and can cause algae.

Tests don't distinguish between these differing forms, and most people don't either.

So it's common for people to underdose phosphorus, because they are afraid of causing algae. They assume, or determine with tests, that there is already some phosphate in the tank, and reduce or eliminate their dosage accordingly. The result is often deficiency, slow growth, and ironically algae; because they're depriving their plants of the most useful form of phosphorus.

I recently went into this in great detail in other threads, so I'm going to refer you to this one if you want more info:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/132362-recommendations-water-testing-equipment.html

You asked me in another thread whether something I stated was from a scientific study, or just something I believe. This time, it's just something I believe; though there is a lot of supporting evidence. If different nutrient forms have different effects in the aquarium, it explains a lot of conflicting anecdotal reports. It explains why calibrated tests can show sufficient or excessive nutrient levels, while plants can still show deficiencies. There are no scientific studies I'm aware of that have properly explored this possibility, but hopefully one day there will be; to either prove this, or disprove it and find another explanation that works as well or better.

Feel free to hit me with any other questions you have. The only dumb question is an unasked one.


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

DarkCobra said:


> That's way off. CSM is:
> 
> Iron 7.0%
> Manganese 2.0%
> ...


for sure no worries 
Thanks for that analysis too, i spent about half an hour searching for it but couldnt find it :/

I like both, i just *personally* feel safer with flourish and have noticed no algae doing dry ferts for macro's while still using it for trace/micro's in terms of just my experience. I guess I haven't quite gotten comfortable with switching that too when flourish has so much and is affordable considering it's dosing regime.. I would think they would add everything in there for a reason though.

Either way, I'm sure CSM+B works just as well ^^ 
I just don't personally know that specifically and gave what experience and info I do know


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Just to bring this back up. Som csm has no calcium? Ive found the breakdown before so i was glad to know i swiched from flourish to csm with similar micros. However its hard to believe that with a name like csm.. calcium sulfur and magnnesium... it would contain calcium too... im no scientist so please correct me if im wrong


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

reignOfFred said:


> I am wondering if any experts might know what CSM has or does not have that flourish has or does not have.
> 
> The reason I ask is that I recently made the switch to CSM and suddenly hair algae has started up again, though it has been going extremely well with no algae growth. This switch is the only change i have made.
> 
> thanks!



Most Hair/Thread type algae seems to be linked to excess nutients by most accounts, Thread Agae linked directly to Iron/Fe.

It may be that your dose of Plantex + CSM is much more potent that than the Flourish or your dose is larger, releasing excess micro nutients into the water column. Some say substrates like Flourite are very good at storing Fe and I have a problem with Thread algae if I dose recommended amounts of micros.

I would try reducing your amount of micro nutients added to the water to see if it may help.

Most use Plantex becuase it's cheaper than Flourish and not because it's better or different.


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## KH2PO4 (Jul 18, 2009)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Just to bring this back up. Som csm has no calcium? Ive found the breakdown before so i was glad to know i swiched from flourish to csm with similar micros. However its hard to believe that with a name like csm.. calcium sulfur and magnnesium... it would contain calcium too... im no scientist so please correct me if im wrong


Imagination goes wild eh? :hihi:
CSM's full name is Plantex Nutritrace Chelated Secondary Micronutrient.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

muwahahahahahahahaahahaha yeah i guess it does!!!!!


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