# Purigen mistake!



## andygold

Picked up a 100ml bag of Purigen. Since it came in a bag, and there is no smaller size, I rinsed it as per the instructions and then placed it upon the filter pad in my 3 gallon tank's filter. 

Went out for about an hour and when I returned almost all of my guppies were either at the surface or on the bottom, barely moving, gills barely moving, and some had their mouths wide open. 

A few were "stuck" in plants. The bigger the fish, the worse it was. All of the baby fish, snails and crab appeared unfazed. I immediately removed the Purigen. I noticed that the bottom of the bag was a cross between red and brown. 

I ended up doing a water change figuring that there might have been some toxin released by the Purigen. Now, after rethinking the matter, I'm wondering if maybe the Purigen changed the water parameters extremely quickly. Possibly so quickly as to over stress the fish. Then again, maybe it's neither. I'm not sure why only the larger fish were affected. It reminded me of when one of my filters locked up, and stopped running, and I came home to dead fish. I guess that was due to lack of flow and oxygen starvation. It wasnt due to bacteria die off as the filter material sits above the tank, out of the water. 

So although Purigen might be a good thing, it's probably not a good idea to use too much of it!


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## fplata

What kind of filter do you have? 


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## NWA-Planted

No something else is wrong...

Purigen is basically like a regenerative activated carbon, except supposedly doesn't pull the vital minerals etc from the water.

It changes color when it's absorbing things from the water.

Thats really odd though, i would go about checking everything in the tank never hard purigen causing problems like this :-/

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## Darkblade48

Very odd. I have used Purigen (without rinsing, even) and it has been fine.

Perhaps there is something else that is causing the problems? What are your water parameters like?


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## DarkCobra

Never heard of such a thing. Unless it's used Purigen which someone attempted to recycle with bleach, and then inadequately dechlorinated. Which will certainly cause these problems.

Was it new? Sealed packaging?


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## Jeff5614

Purigen does become toxic when used with an amine based dechlorinator if it comes in contact with chlorine.

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Purigen.html


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## laqu

i use purigen ALL the time never had a problem...


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## fplata

I wonder if you stopped the water flow on the filter when you placed the purigen bag in


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## CrypticLifeStyle

Curious what water conditioner do you use? I know products that are amine based can become toxic when used with purigen. Things happened too fast for it to be a infection of sorts. Definitely a chemical reaction


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## andygold

All the fish seem to be fine this morning. No deaths and none seem worse for wear. Last night though, even dumping in some Tetra flakes had them motionless.

To answer some questions...the filter is the standard filter that comes with the Marineland Eclipse 3 gallon tank. It is a above the tank/under the hood style. It has a power head that pumps water across the top of a filter floss cartridge that then drips through to the carbon/charcoal below and then that falls over a bio-wheel, and back into the tank. I have modded the cartidge to make it reusable, in that I peeled up the floss from the frame and replaced the stock carbon with a known brand and also added some zeolite in a roughly 50/50 mix. Where the standard cartidge is about 10 percent filled with media, it is now 100% filled with my mixture. This was last changed at the beginning of the month. i also have a Tom's internal filter with a block of foam sitting below a media chamber, which is also filled with my own carbon. This was changed a few days before the introduction to Purigen.

The Purigen changed color where it was touching the filter pad. It went from it's stock sandy color to red and brown in a few places. This was within one hour of application. yes, it was sitting on a dirty filter pad, but the pad had been rinsed and brushed maybe a week and ahalf earlier (in siphoned tank water). Pad was relatively clean at the time with good flow throughout.

Purigen was brand new, bought online, but from a vendor new to myself (Phenter Sales $4.95 for 100ml). It appears to be new, was in a heat sealed bag inside the box, with an instruction sheet). Having never used the stuff before, I thought it strange that even after wetting it, it still appeared to be dry, but I'm assuming that it does not absorb liquid, but instead adsorbs organics. I'm assuming that it's legit and brand new. I've not had to recharge it as it is new, and it did not have any odor. I've also not used amine based dechlor in well over a year.

Water parameters...gonna get flamed here!!! Bioload is immense!!! 3 gallon tank. 12 full grown fancy guppies 9a few more females than males), about the same amount of babies 1/4" to 3/4" length. Every day I seem to have more new borns as they typically give birth to a few per day, and the birthing process lasts for a few days for each female. Many, many have remarked that my guppies are the largest guppies they've ever seen. I've got newborns pretty much every day! I'm at the LFS giving away fish every week 
There's also about a dozen or so adult Malaysian Trumpet Snails, but another dozen or two or three babies. Also, 4 Nerite Snails (egg laying everywhere), and a small red-clawed crab.

As my PH levels are always falling weekily into the below 7 range from my tap water of 8.2- 8.4, I do a once or twice weekly water change of about 33% (1 gallon changed out of 3, by way of a gravel vac siphon).
So, my fish are quite used to PH swings. No ick, no disease, no deaths, just non-stop breeding.
Water is very soft. About 10ppm from the tap, but typically verrrry high in the tank (400->999ppm) depending on when I test. Again, all inhabitants seem to be used to this and appear to getting on without issue.

No copper, no nothing, other than Prime, Flourish (1 drop every day to two days), the occasional bacterial supplement if I feel the need to do a big cleaning, and some API salt (1/2 tsp/gallon) somewhat often when doing a water change (not during top-ups). Even the few floating plants are growing like crazy. 

i guess it is possible that the bag of Purigen might have caused a dam atop the filter pad, preventing water from flowing across the full surface of said pad, but the bio-wheel was still spinning at its normal rate, and the purigen was discolored almost totally along it's bottom side where it had been resting upon the filter pad. I'm going to assume that if the pad was having a blockage and bacteria were dieing, then I would have seen rapid gilling and other symptoms of oxygen starvation/toxicity. The fish' gills were barely moving, and my guppies are somewhat translucent, like ghost shrimp, but not entirely clear (translucent bodies, bright orange tails-females) I can see their gills and they were not red. The fish appeared to be sleeping in the light, or doped up. Maybe the Purigen got them high 

Edit: forgot to add, I've got a small piece if cuttlebone on top of the filter pad that was in contact with a small part of the Purigen bag. I also throw about 1/4 piece of a Tums (the stuff used for heartburn) into the tank a couple times a month to add some harness to the water, and help with snail and crab shell erosion.


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## tiggity

Kind of odd with Purigen, I have 2 100ml bags for my 37g and that's too much I think. However, I don't have any issues when I 1st put the bags in or after regeneration.

I'm probably thinking like others have mentioned, possibly the type of dechlorinator you are using.

edit: NVM on the dechlorinator, you mentioned Prime and that stuff is awesome with Purigen.


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## devilduck

I've used and re-charged my purigen for years without a problem. Something was definitely off with your batch.


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## shloken38

Jeff5614 said:


> Purigen does become toxic when used with an amine based dechlorinator if it comes in contact with chlorine.
> 
> http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Purigen.html


 
This is interesting....what did you rinse that bag with? Was it tap water? Could it be possible that your tap water has a decent amount of chlorine in it?


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## CrypticLifeStyle

You have a lot going on in a 3 gallon tank lol. Go to seachems main page forum, and run the scenario by them. They are pretty good at answering posts.

http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/index.php


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## somewhatshocked

Your tap water in Northern Kentucky - unless it's from a well, and even then I'm doubting how soft it is - is quite hard. That region isn't the greatest on the water front. Do you have GH & KH readings from a liquid test kit?

I doubt strongly that it was the Purigen causing a problem. You've likely stirred up something in the tank or filter and caused a mini cycle to hit.


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## andygold

somewhatshocked said:


> Your tap water in Northern Kentucky - unless it's from a well, and even then I'm doubting how soft it is - is quite hard. That region isn't the greatest on the water front. Do you have GH & KH readings from a liquid test kit?
> 
> I doubt strongly that it was the Purigen causing a problem. You've likely stirred up something in the tank or filter and caused a mini cycle to hit.


Northern New York, not Kentucky.

Water goes through a whole house water softener. TDS of the tap is less than 10 ppm. I'll pull out test kit and test for chlorine, but I doubt it.

No, I have neither GH nor KH test kits. What are you suggesting? 

Nothing was stirred up. The tank had not had anything done to it in a few days other than feeding and a drop or two of Flourish. The Purigen was rinsed, and then laid flat on top of the filter pad in the filter, nothing else.


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## discuspaul

As others have said, the Purigen was not the problem. Can't blame it on that.


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## andygold

discuspaul said:


> As others have said, the Purigen was not the problem. Can't blame it on that.


Is it possible that the extra large amount of Purigen, in comparison to tank capacity, could have pulled out so many organics in such a quick time frame causing an issue?


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## discuspaul

No - that would not have caused your fish to behave as you describe they did.


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## andygold

Tomorrow, I'm going to stand the bag of
Purigen upright on top of the filter pad so that only a little bit of the bag will be in the flow. I'll keep an eye open to see what if anything happens.


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## musician71604

Interesting. I've used purigen before with no ill effects but have been hesitant to "recharge" it after hearing some horror stories about it going wrong. I hope it works out for you.


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## somewhatshocked

HAHA! Wow. 

This is proof I'm jet lagged.



andygold said:


> Northern New York, not Kentucky.


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## longgonedaddy

andygold said:


> Water goes through a whole house water softener.


Is your softener one that uses salt? Perhaps some of the chloride ions are reacting with the Purigen.


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## laqu

i use a TON of puregin per gallon... not a problem..


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## andygold

longgonedaddy said:


> Is your softener one that uses salt? Perhaps some of the chloride ions are reacting with the Purigen.


If the softener is working correctly as I assume it is doing (TDS <10 ppm from the tap), I don't think that would be it. But I could be wrong!!!

The softener only uses salt to clean the resin tank during the cleaning cycle. Once the cycle nears its end, the tank goes through multiple flush cycles to remove any remaining salt. Hopefully, my tap water is only coming into contact with clean, salt-free resin beads. 

Is there any way to test your theory?


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## rodcuda

I would not use water that has been through a softener. I am surprised your tds is so low. I always was led to believe there would still be some sodium in the water after the softener treats it.


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## longgonedaddy

andygold said:


> If the softener is working correctly as I assume it is doing (TDS <10 ppm from the tap), I don't think that would be it. But I could be wrong!!!
> 
> The softener only uses salt to clean the resin tank during the cleaning cycle. Once the cycle nears its end, the tank goes through multiple flush cycles to remove any remaining salt. Hopefully, my tap water is only coming into contact with clean, salt-free resin beads.
> 
> Is there any way to test your theory?


No idea how to test that. I know when I lived in a house with a softener, I would use untreated water, just to be safe. No science, just precaution.


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## andygold

longgonedaddy said:


> Is your softener one that uses salt? Perhaps some of the chloride ions are reacting with the Purigen.





rodcuda said:


> I would not use water that has been through a softener. I am surprised your tds is so low. I always was led to believe there would still be some sodium in the water after the softener treats it.





longgonedaddy said:


> No idea how to test that. I know when I lived in a house with a softener, I would use untreated water, just to be safe. No science, just precaution.




























So, is softened water definitely bad? I don't remember seeing anything on Seachem's site or FAQ mentioning softened water, or salt for that matter.

As an update...today I rinsed the bag again, and placed it atop the filter pad in the filter. But, this time I stood the bag on end, with only the short side of the bag in contact with the pad. There was only about 1/4" of product in the water flow. Within 5 minutes I had to remove it as all the adult fish were again at the top of the tank mostly motionless, and pretty much stuck in the plants.

Either I have bogus product, or something in Purigen does not like my water!!!

I'm going to post on Seachem's site. Maybe I can get swap from them to make sure that what I have is legit. Or maybe they can suggest something to test for...


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## discuspaul

Now that you've posted pics, andygold - something is definitely not right.
You said the Purigen was bought new and that it was brown from the beginning - i.e. before any use whatsoever.
Unused/new Seachem Purigen comes in a fine mesh bag, or loose Purigen beads in a 250 ml jar, and is white, not brown. It gets brown after fairly lengthy usage in a filter, but returns to it's original white color after re-charging.
The pic you showed appears to contain product in an impermeable plastic-type bag - (like a re-sealable zip-lock type bag) - the water would not seem to flow through that for the Purigen to work. That's why you said it was still dry after the bottom of the bag sat in water. Purigen comes in a fine mesh bag that allows water to flow through it.

So something seems amiss here - what kind of bag is that exactly ?
No Purigen I've ever seen or bought comes in a bag like that.
If I'm right about the type of bag, and my eyes are not deceiving me, that product you got is not Seachem Purigen.


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## Merth

The mesh bag full of powder is packaged inside of a sealed plastic bag but yes it is white when new.


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## discuspaul

Merth said:


> The mesh bag full of powder is packaged inside of a sealed plastic bag but yes it is white when new.


That may be - I can't exactly recall. But from what I can see in that pic, there is no mesh bag enclosing the Purigen particles inside that plastic bag in the pic.


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## andygold

discuspaul said:


> Now that you've posted pics, andygold - something is definitely not right.
> You said the Purigen was bought new and that it was brown from the beginning - i.e. before any use whatsoever.
> Unused/new Seachem Purigen comes in a fine mesh bag, or loose Purigen beads in a 250 ml jar, and is white, not brown. It gets brown after fairly lengthy usage in a filter, but returns to it's original white color after re-charging.
> The pic you showed appears to contain product in an impermeable plastic-type bag - (like a re-sealable zip-lock type bag) - the water would not seem to flow through that for the Purigen to work. That's why you said it was still dry after the bottom of the bag sat in water. Purigen comes in a fine mesh bag that allows water to flow through it.
> 
> So something seems amiss here - what kind of bag is that exactly ?
> No Purigen I've ever seen or bought comes in a bag like that.
> If I'm right about the type of bag, and my eyes are not deceiving me, that product you got is not Seachem Purigen.





Merth said:


> The mesh bag full of powder is packaged inside of a sealed plastic bag but yes it is white when new.


The pic of the bag by itself, the second one down...it's actually sitting in a zip-lock in that pic. In the pic of the tank, it is out of the zip-lock.

When first pulled out of the box, the mesh bag was sealed inside a plastic bag that was heat sealed closed. The color of the product was a slight off-white, similar to the color of old computer cases (slightly almond colored). It was the proper color as I've seen, from looking at the jars in the LFS. The colors in that second pic came from around 1 hour in my tank. That color would be most similar to a reddish, clay brick. when i said that the product was still dry...after rinsing it and taking it out from under the water flow, the resin did not hold onto any liquid, upon shaking it, next to no water dripped from the bag. Basically, it was not holding onto the water, it let it all drain out completely.

Well, after this little 5-minute test, besides everyone floating at the top, almost all the females gave birth. There are babies everywhere. I just did a 1 gallon water change to remove anything toxic in the water. While siphoning 1/2 the gravel I picked up close to a dozen babies.

I checked for chlorine in the tank's water before performing the water change, and there was none that registered.

I registered over at Seachem to post on their forum, but it seems they OK registrations on the weekends but don't allow new members to post until they check them out (only on weekdays), so I'll have to wait a few days to post over there.


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## creekbottom

One curious thing I noticed in your description - you said it doesn't smell. In my experience, new purigen has a distinct odor.


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## andygold

creekbottom said:


> One curious thing I noticed in your description - you said it doesn't smell. In my experience, new purigen has a distinct odor.


when i pulled the bag out of the filter, it smelled kinda fishy. Not trying to be stupid there!!! It smelled like when you are down by the ocean, that saltwater aroma. That was after I pulled it out. Don't think it had a smell when new, although there was a bit of dew/fogging in the sealed bag before I opened it.


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## DarkCobra

I haven't used Purigen often, but I don't recall noticing the slightest bit of moisture. In fact mine was dry enough that it exhibited static cling when handling it. Dew/fogging sounds highly suspicious.


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## andygold

Spoke with Seachem today. I learned a few things which hopefully I can impart.

Purigen can either be a little damp or totally dry when it is received in its original, sealed, plastic bag. Both conditions are normal.

Salt, water softeners, chloride ions, and any other things brought up above have nothing to do with the issue. The tech I spoke with could not come up with any reason for the issue. The only thing that might have come up was a rapid PH change (which I didn't find), or overdosing of Prime (which also did not happen).

She did ask me about water hardness, but I informed her I did not have a test kit, and we moved on from there. There might be something to the hardness issue, but she did not dwell on it, and I didn't push the point.

Although not pertinent to my issue...Purigen should be kept under water (not moist, not damp, but totally surrounded with water) when stored in between uses. If it is allowed to dry out, it could become brittle and break down. I asked about storing it wet and possibilities of algae growth. She didn't seem to think it was an issue.

The rather quick color tranformation of my Purigen is most likely due to colorants/dyes/tannins in my water. The color change of the product is not due to organic nasties that it was pulling out of the water.

I also learned some things about Prime:

Prime locks onto the chlorine, chloramine , nitrates, nitites, metals and everything it's designed to lock onto, but for some of these items, it only locks onto them for a limited period of 24 to 48 hours. It is designed to allow certain beneficial products to slowly be released into the tank, where the filter or plants can make use of them. 

I asked if there was something in the water that would make the bonds between Prime and the locked-up toxins break. Basically, I was asking if something could "shock" the Prime into letting go. I was figuring maybe it might act somewhat like carbon, such as when carbon is overloaded, it all of a sudden starts to leach toxins back into the water, but at much high rate than it originally absorbed(adsorbed?) them. I'm told that Prime cannot be shocked into releasing what it has locked onto (other than those beneficial items).

The final outcome....Seachem wants to see the Purigen I received, to test it. They are going to mail me a replacement, along with a return mailer for my use in returning my product. If nothing else, I will be sure that I have fresh, actual, non-contaminated product.


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## discuspaul

Interesting !
We'll look forward to hearing what Seachem has to say.


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## NWA-Planted

andygold said:


> Spoke with Seachem today. I learned a few things which hopefully I can impart.
> 
> Purigen can either be a little damp or totally dry when it is received in its original, sealed, plastic bag. Both conditions are normal.
> 
> Salt, water softeners, chloride ions, and any other things brought up above have nothing to do with the issue. The tech I spoke could not come up with any reason for the issue. The only think that might have come up was a rapid PH change (which I didn't find), or overdosing of Prime (which also did not happen).
> 
> She did ask me about water hardness, but I informed her I did not have a test kit, and we moved on from there. There might be something to the hardness issue, but she did not dwell on it, and I didn't push the point.
> 
> Although not pertinent to my issue...Purigen should be kept under water (not wet, not damp) when stored in between uses. If it is allowed to dry out, it could become brittle and break down. I asked about storing it wet and possibilities of algae growth. She didn't seem to think it was an issue.
> 
> The rather quick color tranformation of my Purigen is most likely due to colorants/dyes/tannins in my water. The color change of the product is not due to organic nasties that it was pulling out of the water.
> 
> I also learned some things about Prime:
> 
> Prime locks onto the chlorine, chloramine , nitrates, nitites, metals and everything it's designed to lock onto, but for some of these items, it only locks onto them for a limited period of 24 to 48 hours. It is designed to allow certain beneficial products to slowly be released into the tank, where the filter or plants can make use of them.
> 
> I asked if there was something in the water that would make the bonds between Prime and the locked-up toxins break. Basically, I was asking if something could "shock" the Prime into letting go. I was figuring maybe it might act somewhat like carbon, such as when carbon is overloaded, it all of a sudden starts to leach toxins back into the water, but at much high rate than it originally absorbed(adsorbed?) them. I'm told that Prime cannot be shocked into releasing what it has locked onto (other than those beneficial items).
> 
> The final outcome....Seachem wants to see the Purigen I received, to test it. They are going to mail me a replacement, along with a return mailer for my use in returning my product. If nothing else, I will be sure that I have fresh, actual, non-contaminated product.


Thats very awesome of them! I hope you get an answer on this

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## nat72sherman

I just bought a bag, I was wondering if it matters where u put it in a canister filter. I put it in the very bottom.


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## DarkCobra

Seachem has been awesome every time I've talked to them too. Thanks for the account of what they said, I'll be interested to see what their tests might reveal. This whole thing has really piqued my curiosity.


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## andygold

nat72sherman said:


> I just bought a bag, I was wondering if it matters where u put it in a canister filter. I put it in the very bottom.


From my limited understanding of the product, I don't think it makes much difference where you put it in the canister as long as water flows through it. The only caveat I can see to placement would be to not have it as the first item in the canister. Not knowing whether your canister feed from the top or bottom, I would think you would want some floss or sponge before it so that the bag the Purigen is contained within would not get clogged with detritus. Again, this is only an uneducated opinion, but since it is acting as a chemical filtration stage, I'd like to have it sufficiently after a mechanical filtration stage.


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## creekbottom

Yes, you're right. Put the bag of purigen so that it is the last stage in the filter.


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## Lia

andygold said:


> The pic of the bag by itself, the second one down...it's actually sitting in a zip-lock in that pic. In the pic of the tank, it is out of the zip-lock.
> 
> When first pulled out of the box, the mesh bag was sealed inside a plastic bag that was heat sealed closed. The color of the product was a slight off-white, similar to the color of old computer cases (slightly almond colored). It was the proper color as I've seen, from looking at the jars in the LFS. The colors in that second pic came from around 1 hour in my tank. That color would be most similar to a reddish, clay brick. when i said that the product was still dry...after rinsing it and taking it out from under the water flow, the resin did not hold onto any liquid, upon shaking it, next to no water dripped from the bag. Basically, it was not holding onto the water, it let it all drain out completely.
> 
> Well, after this little 5-minute test, besides everyone floating at the top, almost all the females gave birth. There are babies everywhere. I just did a 1 gallon water change to remove anything toxic in the water. While siphoning 1/2 the gravel I picked up close to a dozen babies.
> 
> I checked for chlorine in the tank's water before performing the water change, and there was none that registered.
> 
> I registered over at Seachem to post on their forum, but it seems they OK registrations on the weekends but don't allow new members to post until they check them out (only on weekdays), so I'll have to wait a few days to post over there.


 
I use Purigen in my emperor filters and love it but also like poly filter pad by Poly-Bio-Marine, They might be better for your needs .You would only need to cut a small piece for your filter and discard it and replace it when it turns dark brown.

I think polyfilter pads are the best for small filters.


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## andygold

Will have to give Poly-Filters a try. 

Received my replacement Purigen in the mail today. I guess Seachem has new packaging as the replacement is now in a colorful plastic bag. No box. Tear open the packaging bag and the Purigen is sitting inside ( no more clear, sealed inner bag). Along side the Purigen in its mesh bag is a sealed bag containing the instructions. I smelled the Purigen, and I did notice a chemical smell. It reminded me of a solvent-type of aroma, somewhat familiar, but couldn't quite place it. 

Popped it into the filter, and in a few minutes all the adult fish were at the top of the tank mostly motionless, once again. So, I guess it has something to do with my water, and not counterfeit/old/bogus/contaminated Purigen. I'm going to leave it in a bit to see what happens to my elderly fish. I figure if there is some sort of toxicity going on, they'll be the first to go. The juveniles and new borns seem to be taking it in stride. They now have the run of the tank as all of the adults are huddled in masses at the top. 

I noticed that the Trumpet snails were more active after the Purigen was placed into the filter. Some of the 1/10" long ones were headed up the sides of the tank, while a good many adults (3/4") who had been nose down in the gravel, came to the surface and were
moving around quite rapidly totally on top of the gravel. 

I checked PH both before and after adding the bag, and it did not change. It's sitting right at 7.0


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## plantastic37

andygold said:


> Will have to give Poly-Filters a try.
> 
> Received my replacement Purigen in the mail today. I guess Seachem has new packaging as the replacement is now in a colorful plastic bag. No box. Tear open the packaging bag and the Purigen is sitting inside ( no more clear, sealed inner bag). Along side the Purigen in its mesh bag is a sealed bag containing the instructions. I smelled the Purigen, and I did notice a chemical smell. It reminded me of a solvent-type of aroma, somewhat familiar, but couldn't quite place it.
> 
> Popped it into the filter, and in a few minutes all the adult fish were at the top of the tank mostly motionless, once again. So, I guess it has something to do with my water, and not counterfeit/old/bogus/contaminated Purigen. I'm going to leave it in a bit to see what happens to my elderly fish. I figure if there is some sort of toxicity going on, they'll be the first to go. The juveniles and new borns seem to be taking it in stride. They now have the run of the tank as all of the adults are huddled in masses at the top.
> 
> I noticed that the Trumpet snails were more active after the Purigen was placed into the filter. Some of the 1/10" long ones were headed up the sides of the tank, while a good many adults (3/4") who had been nose down in the gravel, came to the surface and were
> moving around quite rapidly totally on top of the gravel.
> 
> I checked PH both before and after adding the bag, and it did not change. It's sitting right at 7.0


That is horrible, sorry for your loss! I would be devastated so you have my deepest sympathies!


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## andygold

plantastic37 said:


> That is horrible, sorry for your loss! I would be devastated so you have my deepest sympathies!


Thanks for the condolences, but they are premature!!! :icon_wink No loss of fish yet. Just a lot of motionless ones at the surface. Their bodies are as if they are petrified, but the gills and mouths are moving at light speed. One other observation...every few minutes somebody in the mass freaks out the others, and there is quite a bit of thrashing and jumping for a second. Then they go petrified again.

Going to have to get a more comprehensive test kit than I currently have, to see if I can find something in the water that's amiss. Going to call Seachem again to see if there might be something else that was overlooked, and I have to send back my original Purigen to them. Maybe they might be able to tell me what's going on by analyzing the bag I send them (if they will analyze it at all).


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## Lia

andygold said:


> Thanks for the condolences, but they are premature!!! :icon_wink No loss of fish yet. Just a lot of motionless ones at the surface. Their bodies are as if they are petrified, but the gills and mouths are moving at light speed. One other observation...every few minutes somebody in the mass freaks out the others, and there is quite a bit of thrashing and jumping for a second. Then they go petrified again.
> 
> Going to have to get a more comprehensive test kit than I currently have, to see if I can find something in the water that's amiss. Going to call Seachem again to see if there might be something else that was overlooked, and I have to send back my original Purigen to them. Maybe they might be able to tell me what's going on by analyzing the bag I send them (if they will analyze it at all).


 
Let us know how the fish are doing this afternoon or when you can.

I would simply never use purigen again, go with regular carbon or try polyfilter pad but no more purigen.


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## CrypticLifeStyle

Please keep us up to date on what seachem has to say. I'm convinced it was the purigen wether by itself or in a interaction with soemthing else. Nothing that rapid in change could of happened from simple things like bioload, filtration or anything else that fast. There was a chemical reaction somewhere. 

You can have a million people praise a product, but it just takes one problem like this to really understand a product, and/or point out a flaw in a product.


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## CoffeeLove

This is really weird! I'm glad I never ran into problems with purigen. I love the stuff lol

---
I give my fish coffee


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## andygold

CrypticLifeStyle said:


> Please keep us up to date on what seachem has to say. I'm convinced it was the purigen wether by itself or in a interaction with soemthing else. Nothing that rapid in change could of happened from simple things like bioload, filtration or anything else that fast. There was a chemical reaction somewhere.
> 
> You can have a million people praise a product, but it just takes one problem like this to really understand a product, and/or point out a flaw in a product.


I agree 100%! The thing that causes the issue is the Purigen (in concert with my particular water conditions). I'm not meaning to say that Purigen is a bad product. It works wonders for most, but it appears not for me with my particular water.

I left the bag in overnight, as before I retired for the evening a good many of the larger fish had resumed their normal habits. Some, still were at the surface, but most looked good.

So, now 12 hours later, there are still about half a dozen or so that are hiding up top in the corner, in the dark. I dumped in some flake food, 1/4 of an algae wafer and one shrimp pellet to entice them to feed, but those up top stayed there. The juveniles though were feeding like crazy along with the adults who weren't up top en masse. I also put in some food for the fry, and they also fed like normal.

The addition of the Purigen just seems to be affecting the adult guppies. The Panda Corydora, Trumpet and Nerite Snails and Red-Clawed Crab seem good. The Trumpet Snails have gone back to hiding under the gravel in the daylight, as expected.
If anything, the Purigen is having absolutely no effect on the crab. She likes to sit half out of the water, on the top of the filter pad in the filter. When I open the lid to the tank, she'll normally scurry into the exhaust port of the powerhead (big-ish square opening that overflows onto the filter pad atop the tank, and yes, one time she lost 2 legs in the impeller, but they grew back after a molt or two). Well, this morning when I went to turn on the tank's light and opened the lid, there she was, eating a small piece of carrot (don't know whether she eats it or just likes the texture:red_mouth, or just likes to rip things apart) on top of the bag of Purigen. Upon the movement of the lid, she waved good morning with one claw (I'll take that as "back off sucker") and bolted into the powerhead's exhaust. Yes, one day I'll put some screen over the exhaust. Sorry to digress!!!

Water parameters, at least what I can test for, seem unchanged compared to before putting the Purigen in.

I'm hoping to move into a super large tank soon. Going from 3 to 5 gallons:eek5:. On that tank, I'll be able to use my Aquaclear Mini (AQ20). Then I believe I'll have good flow through the entire bag of Purigen, as opposed to the trickle through only a very, very small surface area of the bag. I'll update with any findings/observations, when I finally get that set up.

I'll also post anything that Seachem informs me of, if in fact they tell me anything.


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## CoffeeLove

What's in your water that could be causing this reaction with Purigen? 

---
I give my fish coffee


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## Rob in Puyallup

Curious if you have iron in your water, and if there's something that may be removing oxygen when you place the Purigen in your filter. 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 2


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## andygold

CoffeeLove said:


> What's in your water that could be causing this reaction with Purigen?
> 
> ---
> I give my fish coffee





Rob in Puyallup said:


> Curious if you have iron in your water, and if there's something that may be removing oxygen when you place the Purigen in your filter.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 2


Unknown what might be in the water that's causing this. I figured that the water softener should be removing anything bad. Hopefully it is doing what it is supposed to.... What effect would iron have?

Today I noticed the polishing effect of the Purigen. The water is crystal clear like I've never seen before. In comparison, the water used to look yellowish, but I hadn't really noticed that until now. The water basically has disappeared from view. 

Everyone in the tank seems to be back to normal except for one elderly guppy. 

I had my first fatality. The oldest fish in the tank died overnight. Well, at least I think it died as opposed to it being killed. I found it above the water on a shelf that supports the filter. The shelf is still under the hood of the tank, but above water. This location is the Red-Clawed Crab's second favorite spot. The fish was partially consumed, so either he died and was placed there, or he just wasn't quick enough to escape the crab, while swimming by too close. I can't blame the death on the Purigen. He was old to the point where I was contemplating euthanizing him soon. He was struggling with his swimming, but was still going after the ladies. That alone kept me from doing it sooner. Figured I'd let the old codger sew his oats . 

Package of old Purigen will ship out today to Seachem. Hopefully will know a little more in the next week or two.


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## Oneiros

Just reading this while searching for something else. Sucks that you lost your fish! Hope things have stabilized and things are thriving now.

I've got similar setups with Marineland tanks (5g and 12g), guppies and Purigen. Never had any issues, and have recharged the bags several times, sometimes a little less than once a week, when I had added new driftwood and Purigen was sucking up all the tannins.

One thing I did was actually replace the carbon filter pad with the Purigen bag, since they're both basically doing the same thing. Though I do also use a pre-filter sponge on my intake (the one for Fluval Edge works great.)

My understanding of Purigen is that, as basically a porous plastic that traps organics, it's not like a chemical that "reacts" with things in the water, so it can't create toxic compounds. It's more like mechanical filtration, but at the molecular level. You have to soak it in bleach to make it let go of the stuff it's grabbed, unlike charcoal that can start dumping toxins back out.

That said, a bag that size for such a small aquarium might have sucked up enough material fast enough that there was a noticeable change in the water quality in a short period of time. With the overstocking and you mentioning the previous yellow-ish color of the water, I just wonder if the guppies, especially the older ones, had gotten use to the "bad" water and couldn't handle the suddenly cleaner water params.


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## rollinghills

I also had a similar experience with Purigen. I just got the same package couple of weeks back upon placing it in the filter the effect was almost immediate, but my Purigen bag had a slight tear so some of the pellets got into the tank so I wasn't sure if some of the fish had swallowed them. Anyway, the effect on some of my fish was similar. Mouth half closed, slightly lethargic and one of the fish had a very fast gill movement almost like they were shaking. I thought it might because the fish ate the loose pellets. They were all fine the next day though.


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## andygold

I have heard from Seachem a few times since last posting. They could not find anything out of the norm regarding the Purigen I sent them. There was nothing wrong with my sample, and it performed as expected when they tried it themselves. They sent me a replacement that came in a new packaging. No more box, but now in a colorful sealed bag. I tried the new product and got the same results as with the original sample. So it's not the Purigen, but instead something in my water. The last correspondence from Seachem asked me to recharge the new Purigen that they had just recently sent to me. I've not yet had the time to do this, but will soon. I wonder what they are thinking!


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## longgonedaddy

andygold said:


> I have heard from Seachem a few times since last posting. They could not find anything out of the norm regarding the Purigen I sent them. There was nothing wrong with my sample, and it performed as expected when they tried it themselves. They sent me a replacement that came in a new packaging. No more box, but now in a colorful sealed bag. I tried the new product and got the same results as with the original sample. So it's not the Purigen, but instead something in my water. The last correspondence from Seachem asked me to recharge the new Purigen that they had just recently sent to me. I've not yet had the time to do this, but will soon. I wonder what they are thinking!



Thanks for the update!


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## Chulios66

Wow, I would be depressed if I came home with all of my 105 guppies dead(along with some shrimp and about 50 ramshorns).


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## andygold

Chulios66 said:


> Wow, I would be depressed if I came home with all of my 105 guppies dead(along with some shrimp and about 50 ramshorns).


Just to keep the record straight...I only lost one fish and he was on death's door anyway. I also don't know if he just happened to die, or if he was grabbed by my crab while swimming by.


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## JasterMake

So what happened?


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## andygold

I ended up throwing the Purigen into a Ziploc bag and left it to sit for a few weeks, damp in its bag. Then against my better judgement I placed it back into the filter without cleaning it. I kind of expected disaster out we damp for weeks, and I figured almost anything might be growing on it. Well, it polished my water, didn't smell or anything, and the fish were not affected. Not even one bit. They acted as if nothing had changed. I've been throwing it in every few weeks since then just to polish the water and remove any color. And out seems to be doing the job nicely. I've not rinsed it or cleaned it or bleached it or anything. I just take it out of the wet Ziploc and throw on top of my filter floss. Don't know why it's working now and not screwing up the fish, snails,and crab, but it is. I'm almost afraid to clean/recharge the thing as even with the damp storage and my expectation of mold or mildew I'm good to go!


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## discuspaul

If I may say so, the Purigen was never the problem in the first place - it was very definitely something else that adversely affected your tank & fish - not the Purigen.
I've been using it properly 24/7 for several years in my planted discus tanks - I always have crystal clear water, and absolutely no problems whatsoever.
I swear by Purigen, and will never quit using it.


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## andygold

discuspaul said:


> If I may say so, the Purigen was never the problem in the first place - it was very definitely something else that adversely affected your tank & fish - not the Purigen.
> I've been using it properly 24/7 for several years in my planted discus tanks - I always have crystal clear water, and absolutely no problems whatsoever.
> I swear by Purigen, and will never quit using it.


Agreed! I never thought or suggested it was the Purigen. My thoughts were that my water parameters ( in which the fish seemed to have no issues) were dramatically and rapidly changed (for the better) by the Purigen, causing the fish distress. I'm going under the assumption that the Purigen was working as it was supposed to, but due to my tank's extremely small capacity, it might have been too much change, too quickly. Now that the bag has been sitting in its own slop (Not literally) for some months, I'm going to again assume that its removal capacity has been a bit tempered and when i add it to the tank it doesn't pull as much stuff out as rapidly as when new. Another thought is that my water parameters in general are now closer to perfect, and when the Purigen is added it doesn't have too far to go to polish the water, and subsequently doesn't change the parameters that much or that rapidly.

And for those interested...Seachem did the right thing! Replaced my product just to make sure. Tested what i returned to them, and then got back in touch with me to inform me of the results. And they followed up for a few more weeks to see how things were going, and to offer suggestions. Very professional, and very good customer service!!!


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## JasterMake

Thanks,

I was hoping for a happy ending.


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