# Help me to decide to move to LEDs from Tek T5 HO



## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

I actually just ditched my LED's for T5 haha. I did not spend the money on Geismann, I went with 2x TrueLumen Floras and 2x Fluval 6500k. Plants definitely appreciated the change, but I was running some basic BeamsWorks LED's so I'm definitely getting a fuller spectrum now.

There are good, full spectrum LED's out there, I had a T5 fixture laying around though and decided to give it a shot before buying something else.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Visually, i am happy and the plants grow.

When we change things, it requires work to get back to the normal ways things were going. So the reasons for change? Do you have too much time and need a project or "need" to spends some money? I'm not sure I can recommend change when things are going well! 
I change bulbs at times, but only when they are not working as well as I want.


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## KayakJimW (Aug 12, 2016)

Daud said:


> Do LEDS age with decreasing output over years ?


No, they run full speed until they die. The continued expense of replacing bulbs is what got me into LEDs. I'm not going to say LED is _better_, but they are definitely cheaper in the long run. Disclaimer: I don't grow "high light" plants and have no clue how my PAR changed when I switched. I look forward to responses from the light gurus on comparing performance. 

I've heard from a few different sources though, that tube lights can decrease by as much as 50% output after a few years. On one hand, my java ferns and anubias never seemed to mind. On the other hand, it happens so gradually, who knows what/if I was missing out on running those dead bulbs so long


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

KayakJimW said:


> No, they run full speed until they die. The continued expense of replacing bulbs is what got me into LEDs. I'm not going to say LED is _better_, but they are definitely cheaper in the long run. Disclaimer: I don't grow "high light" plants and have no clue how my PAR changed when I switched. I look forward to responses from the light gurus on comparing performance.
> 
> I've heard from a few different sources though, that tube lights can decrease by as much as 50% output after a few years. On one hand, my java ferns and anubias never seemed to mind. On the other hand, it happens so gradually, who knows what/if I was missing out on running those dead bulbs so long



This is not true, I believe the 50000 hours or whatever rating on an led is supposed to mean the expected time for it to reach 70% output. So after 5.7 years (of the light being on) it's expected to be 70% brightness and therefore end of life. Still quite a bit longer than bulbs losing 10+% in the first 3000 hours.


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## KayakJimW (Aug 12, 2016)

Wobblebonk said:


> This is not true, I believe the 50000 hours or whatever rating on an led is supposed to mean the expected time for it to reach 70% output. So after 5.7 years (of the light being on) it's expected to be 70% brightness and therefore end of life. Still quite a bit longer than bulbs losing 10+% in the first 3000 hours.


Interesting, first time hearing that... I wonder what makes it degrade since there's no gas to burn up, is it just wear and tear on the diode?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Daud said:


> I have a 48in 65G tank with Tek light 4 tubes. I am way over the suggested lifespan 6-12 months. Visually, i am happy and the plants grow.
> Shall I invest $100 in 4 new Giesman tubes (2xMidday, Aquaflora) or shall I move to LEDs ?


What makes you think you need new bulbs? Plants doing poorly? Noticeably less light?

I don't change them until they burn out. If they are 10 or 20 % less bright in a couple years, probably not that big a difference.

By the way, if you have Geisemann's now, I just did some tests on them with a Seneye meter in my journal. Turns out their PAR starts off much higher than most. Even aged probably more PAR than most new bulbs.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

KayakJimW said:


> Interesting, first time hearing that... I wonder what makes it degrade since there's no gas to burn up, is it just wear and tear on the diode?


If manufacturing was perfect they wouldn't fade? but... https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2012/feb/understanding-the-cause-of-fading-in-high-brightness-leds


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Wobblebonk said:


> If manufacturing was perfect they wouldn't fade? but... https://www.digikey.com/en/articles...g-the-cause-of-fading-in-high-brightness-leds


Have to add phosphor decay to this.. Actually susceptible to a lot more concentrated heat than in tubes..
and what you consider "past their prime"..
you could hit 65 years @ 70% ..........










Re tubes:
https://youtu.be/Y3F-vpHsiH0


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I miss my 6 bulb TEK with Giesmans. I also use T5s until they burn out, which seems to be around 2 years at 12 hours a day.

You can try 2 or 3 Current USA Pro LED, @ $250/ea.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Daud said:


> I have a 48in 65G tank with Tek light 4 tubes. I am way over the suggested lifespan 6-12 months. Visually, i am happy and the plants grow.
> Shall I invest $100 in 4 new Giesman tubes (2xMidday, Aquaflora) or shall I move to LEDs ? What would be the price for a comparable light output ? Any suggestions, like Finnex ? Do LEDS age with decreasing output over years ?


Personally I would stick with the T5Ho fixture if you are interested more in growing plants vs just lighting up a tank. Funny OVT mentioned the Satellite Plus Pro lights as I have them and am not overly impressed after 1-2 years of use over a 75g tank. Part of me wishes I would have went with the T5Ho option originally.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I have a couple tanks that I've converted to LED for the long life expectations but I am also beginning to ask some questions on the true performance as some things are showing signs of growing less. not at all sure the light is the total answer as there are always lots of small things but I no longer trim red tiger lotus to keep it from covering the tank!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Immortal1 said:


> Funny OVT mentioned the Satellite Plus Pro lights as I have them and am not overly impressed after 1-2 years of use over a 75g tank. Part of me wishes I would have went with the T5Ho option originally.


Ditto. I ended up with 3 x Satelite PROs right on a 36x18x21 tank. I do like them. But after $600+ and endless adjustments to spectors, intensity, ferts, and co2 I am still struggling with plants that just grew under a TEK. Blyxa not growing? I could not give it away when when it was under 18w screw-in CFLs.

PAR or no PAR, I feel I am missing something with LEDs. But learning, understanding, and solving is what makes this hobby so much fun (and frustrating at times) to me.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

This is like asking should you trade the Benz for a beater. Keep the Tek! 

Also +1 on running the bulbs til they pop, or at least get very old. Yeah they're gonna lose some PAR after the first year, and some brands hold up better than others.

The main thing is fluorescents tend to degrade towards the red spectrum over time, blues get less. This can be a problem for reef folks with corals that rely on heavy heavy blues. Those guys do need to be vigilant when it comes to changing bulbs.

Growing freshwater plants? Not so much...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

burr740 said:


> The main thing is fluorescents tend to degrade towards the red spectrum over time, blues get less. This can be a problem for reef folks with corals that rely on heavy heavy blues. Those guys do need to be vigilant when it comes to changing bulbs.
> 
> .


Depends..................
https://youtu.be/Y3F-vpHsiH0

Bump:


burr740 said:


> This is like asking should you trade the Benz for a beater. Keep the Tek!


you can still buy a Benz.. Tek.. not so much...


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## RLee (Sep 21, 2008)

I have been using T5-HO lighting since 2008. I change bulbs every 2 years. I have dimming ballasts and have run some of my bulbs at 50 % the entire time "2 years". I have a controller that can ramp up and down to simulate sunrise and sunset. I have never tested for par or spectrum. After 2 years of solid performance I just assumed it was time to switch bulbs on a prophylactic basis. This video makes me ponder if my assumptions were correct. https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/vide...W&utm_campaign=brstv&utm_content=brstv_021618
I still believe that T-5 HO is the best value for the money. It a shame that lots of companies are abandoning T-5 HO.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

W/ dimmable ballasts and a controller not sure I'd use "value" really..

not including bulbs.. What would it cost to do that?
Honestly never priced it..

Is dimming smooth?

24" $521... 6x 24"
https://www.marinedepot.com/ATI_24_...MI6tOB37Sz2QIViLXACh08zwFOEAQYBSABEgKUsfD_BwE

so 144W


3 AI Prime fw = $600 165W

See no cost savings in T5............



> with dimming control, the ATI Dimmable SunPower offers an unmatched combination of output and control at an affordable price-point.


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## RLee (Sep 21, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> W/ dimmable ballasts and a controller not sure I'd use "value" really..
> 
> not including bulbs.. What would it cost to do that?
> Honestly never priced it..
> ...


A basic individual reflector type T5-HO fixture will have more PAR than most led's by far. The only reason I mentioned dimming ballasts was the myth that they shortened bulb life and spectrum.
I picked up my 48" T5-HO dimming ballast off ebay for $25 a piece new. Retrofitted my older Aquaticlife fixture and use a craigslist reef keeper light with ALC for the dimming. 
Great setup............. but if looking at it from someone who doesn't want to fuss with all that one could buy a led fixture for sunrise sunset function and a T-5 HO for plant growing muscle and still get away for pretty cheap.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

RLee said:


> I still believe that T-5 HO is the best value for the money. It a shame that lots of companies are abandoning T-5 HO.


I couldn't agree with you more.

Take a typical 90G aquarium. 4 feet long and deep. 

You can get a 4 bulb T5HO unit for a little over a hundred bucks that will provide high PAR, great balanced coverage, and great color. It would cost you a fortune to do that with LED, especially as you would need multiple fixtures to provide decent coverage throughout the tank.

I see so many threads where the biggest issue folks have is how weak their LED lights are. 

Good old fashioned T5HO is pretty hard to beat. And personally I think they just flat out grow plants better. I hope they continue to stick around for a good while longer.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)




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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

You are all talking 300 plus watts of photons over a tank...

Put 300W of "good" LED's over one and talk about growth..


Pick the LEd's for color.. then talk about color...

Yes as of now (and considering all the dumping going on ) and in the near future.. more cost effective.

Put 3 100W cheap floods over your tanks and growth will be as good or better...
Heck, they are so cheap.. make it 4


It's not the lights.....


> 2x BML Dutch 6300k












https://www.aquascapeawards.com/scapes/dutch-jungle-160202093828/


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

A gorgeous tank indeed. Too bad BML is no longer around, and, if I remember correctly, those lights were around $500 for 2.

Bump: just saw this, 48" BML @ $200 used http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/77-texas/1239634-fs-buildmyled-48%94.html


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

OVT said:


> A gorgeous tank indeed. Too bad BML is no longer around, and, if I remember correctly, those lights were around $500 for 2.
> 
> Bump: just saw this, 48" BML @ $200 used http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/77-texas/1239634-fs-buildmyled-48%94.html


Add $100 or so for the 3 channel model and controller..

And how much for a program dim t5???
People seem to "Shift" from LED can't grow things to cost too much..

You can get cheap high power LEd's ie. 100W floods (say $40) OR expensive tricked out high power LED's i.e Radion xr15's
$300...95W.

You ca nget hort t5 fixture $100 or tricked out ones >$500 add about $100 when you shuffle around bulbs..


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

I will never sell my ATI T5 Powermodule. I got it years ago used all rusted up, burnt ballasts, and with beat up reflectors for $100. Dave at nanobox cleaned it all up for me and put a powdercoat on it. I replaced all the reflectors and ballasts and it was as good as new. I bought a huge lot of Philips Centium NOS ballasts on ebay for less than $100. All in all I spent like $400 getting it all back in working order and it's one of the best monies I've spent in the hobby. The thing will last forever with easy replaceable parts and with it's extruded aluminum shell.










Ballasts to last me a long time.









At one point it was even running in hybrid form with LEDs on a reef tank. Now it's back to T5 only.


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## RLee (Sep 21, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> Add $100 or so for the 3 channel model and controller..
> 
> And how much for a program dim t5???
> People seem to "Shift" from LED can't grow things to cost too much..
> ...


Some things to think about with led's is your stuck with the color rendition if you want full power. Some led fixtures allow for custom color changes but only to a point and not a full power. I can simple pop in a different color bulb. Led fixtures are more difficult to repair.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> Add $100 or so for the 3 channel model and controller..
> 
> And how much for a program dim t5???
> People seem to "Shift" from LED can't grow things to cost too much..
> ...


Jeff I am curious, maybe you can help me. 

I get a fair amount of PM's here on the board. Recently I have been messaging back and forth with a guy who is setting up a 90G high light high tech tank (yes, Rainbows!). He didn't know anything about lights, and went out and bought a 48" Current Satellite Pro Plus for $290. Nothing is growing.

So I do a quick search and find a video where someone is measuring the PAR values of this fixture, and they were getting 35 PAR at 16" depth at full power (directly under the light). Even less when adjusting for better color. His tank is 24" deep, so who knows what PAR is making it to the substrate (very little). 

And due to the directional nature of the LED's, he has a bright spot in the middle of the tank, and front and back look dark. He doesn't want to buy two or three more of these, as it will be quite pricey ($870 for three) and who knows what PAR he will end with.

So he was asking my advice. I suggested a 48" horticulture T5HO fixture ($125.00). I know he can get about 100 PAR pretty much all over the substrate of the tank, and with the correct bulbs can get some very nice color. So add maybe another $75.00 for a nice selection of bulbs ($200 total).

So the question is, what commercially available LED fixtures would provide penetration of 100 PAR at 24" depth, broad even coverage of light in an 18" wide tank, and just as importantly, good color rendition? And at a reasonable cost?

If there is something commercially available, I would like to share it with him. He does not want to DIY. I don't keep up with LED technology, and really have no idea if that is possible?

Thanks.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

https://sbreeflights.com/16-freshwater-plant-lights/41-sbox-pro-16-timer.html

Why don't you just ask for a car that goes 0-60 in 5sec, gets 100Mi/gallon and costs $6000.. 

Each has it's strength and weaknesses..and yes LED for large tanks/high demand are still not cheap.. nor cases of surplus available on eeek bay ala gus........... 


https://orphek.com/atlantik-v4-planted-freshwater-aquariums-led-light/

Believe this is like $900 unfortunately..
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/atlantik-v4-led-light-fixture-orphek.html

There are numerous Chinese "black boxes" w/ various spectrums and colors all matching your criteria..
BUt they vary practically daily..but are relatively dirt cheap..

Markets not mature nor settled..
https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.255.a79ff676b0RFrZ

ADA Aquasky, ADA RGB, Zetlight Lancia, 2x Chihiros A's ect.. all hit the PAR criteria or close (who needs 100 at substrate in fw??)

2 of these :
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UMXAR5S?tag=vs-powersports-convert-amazon-20

Problem is I DIY so can't keep up w/ all the models really, nor am I tied to favor one or the other over time..

Current GOLD standard is Radion and Orphek for "normal" models.. There is NO t5 comparison w power AND features..
There is NOTHING wrong w/ T 5 and I'd call it more of a LOOK than a necessity. Same w/ LED..

To each their own.. just don't say LED can't "grow" things like t5........there are differences. but mostly subtle. 

I used to love that magenta glow of tube tanks.. till I built my own LEd's..


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

RLee said:


> Some things to think about with led's is your stuck with the color rendition if you want full power. Some led fixtures allow for custom color changes but only to a point and not a full power. I can simple pop in a different color bulb. Led fixtures are more difficult to repair.


an old Ford Mustang is easier to repair than a Tesla....... point is?

But you are right, and I've harped on it for years.. Finally Fluval did something about the channel restrictions.
As to full power, fairly easy to get a light that is overpowered to compensate..

If you use reefer and their high demands MANY LEd's are run way under 100% giving them headroom for color adjustments..
Like using a 6 tube fixture and only using 4 slots..but much finer adjustment than 33% (2,4,6)

It is ridiculously easy to build an LED overpowered..
My 55 has 5 COBS, each at 50% of their current capacity and are dimmed as well at various times throughout the day..and though not blazing par on the substrate (30-ish ) the point is it's only $100 worth of chips..
double the density and increase drive current and one can easily hit 100 for $200 (yes plus circuitry, just trying to give you an idea of "bulb" costs)
and those are "luxury" chips and almost 2x the cost of "normal" emitters..


Point is .. be it single emitters or COB's your photon costs between LED "bulbs" and a t5 bulb is almost to parity..(generous as you will see below)https://www.rapidled.com/vero29-300...MIpsm02N202QIViVYNCh1RSwCwEAkYBCABEgJ1efD_BwE
Lets pretend you can get a cheap driver (after all tubes need ballasts)for this and ignore the color temp for now:
1800mA @ 52V = 93.6W of power.. w/ a conversion efficiency equal or surpassing any T5/8 ect..12.047 total lumens for that.. 
That is almost 3TUBES of light for $25.............$9/tube equiv..

Lets address one more point.. No matter how you look at it.. 4,6,8 tubes you got a TANK sitting above your aquarium chock full of 110/220/ AC..(assuming few remote ballasts). not to mention thin glass and Mercury/titanium oxide ect................
There is really no way to make it unobtrusive...


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> https://sbreeflights.com/16-freshwater-plant-lights/41-sbox-pro-16-timer.html
> 
> Why don't you just ask for a car that goes 0-60 in 5sec, gets 100Mi/gallon and costs $6000..
> 
> ...


Thanks Jeff for the response. 

That's exactly the information I was looking for.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

PlantedRich said:


> I have a couple tanks that I've converted to LED for the long life expectations but I am also beginning to ask some questions on the true performance as some things are showing signs of growing less. not at all sure the light is the total answer as there are always lots of small things but I no longer trim red tiger lotus to keep it from covering the tank!



I'm curious about this too. Do you think its intensity or does the spectrum change too?

This will be pretty easy for me to test. I am running "worst case scenario" cheap epi leds, and the way I adjust intensity is by turning off leds. (Many of the leds are wired in but unused.) After one year, two years, three years... I can turn the unused leds on and see if there is any difference in intensity.

Probably best case scenario is to build the light with some headroom, run the leds at 70% or less (will be cooler), and if there is any loss over time (measured by PAR meter), then bump the power.

Reminding self to get a PAR meter...

Also, maybe @jeffkrol can calculate how much money is saved per year using LEDS vs tubes.


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## super_smirky (Dec 24, 2007)

I personally just switched over to my old (2008? maybe) 72" USA Current Satellite Pro 12 bulb t5ho fixture from a couple of Greenworks LED fixtures. To me, the color with the t5ho made everything look just a little better and less washed out. Bulbs probably all need replaced but they still seem to get my plants pearling so I hadn't thought much about finding where to get bulbs yet.


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## odenkun (Jan 25, 2010)

*T5 to LED*

I recently changed T5 lighting to LED. The reason was simply because T5 lighting unit broke down twice and it required to replace the ballast. There were two ballasts and I replaced one when bulbs not on all the time. After the replacement the 2 of 4 light bulbs went dead again. I realized it was time to switch to LED.

I got two of 

Current USA Satellite Freshwater LED Plus 48-60 (eBay price was $113.94 ea.) 

and I am very happy with them.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

There is no such thing as a "cheap" diy led light. Once you add it all up the cheap is always out the window and all you are left with is the ugly part of it.

For big tanks T5 is always more cost effective even with buying bulbs.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> There is no such thing as a "cheap" diy led light. Once you add it all up the cheap is always out the window and all you are left with is the ugly part of it.
> 
> For big tanks T5 is always more cost effective even with buying bulbs.
> 
> Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


Stop buying those horribly overpriced heatsinks... you'll be fine..
What do you consider "cheap"???

Ugly part.. DIY t5 would look as bad..


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

gus6464 said:


> For big tanks T5 is always more cost effective even with buying bulbs.
> 
> Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


I think Jeff demonstrated that clearly in an earlier post. At least when it comes to commercially available units.

I will say this, Maryland Guppy here did a nice job with his LED's. But that is an undertaking not many are up for.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> Also, maybe @*jeffkrol* can calculate how much money is saved per year using LEDS vs tubes.


Don't really think one saves money.. It's complicated..
most cost savings will be more so in the near future,. when 200 lumens/watt is more common.
On a unit" basis.. think of it this way.. 200L/ w is 2X the radiant flux of tubes.. 120 degree directional increases delivery.. so "best case" you will only need 1/4W to get the same photon content out as 1W of T5 (actually t8's are more efficient but still not near 200L/ W).................0.2 Kw vs 0.8kw per day..........assuming 100W t5

currently it's more like parity to 1:2....not 1:4 ideally

Bump:


Greggz said:


> I think Jeff demonstrated that clearly in an earlier post. At least when it comes to commercially available units.
> 
> I will say this, Maryland Guppy here did a nice job with his LED's. But that is an undertaking not many are up for.


It's worth it though..
Rebuilt tank








Orig:









my recommendations, not tank/light..
Cheaper than one would expect but still not "cheap"..
I'd have to look at the old stuff but the LED "bulb" cost was only $150 tops..
$70 driver
$50 ps
$100 aluminum..

controller is what kills it.. $100 but 5/6 channel control.. WW/CW/Deep red/Blue/Cyan (not used)/Violet

since this is from memory.. could be off on either direction is.. Point no.. not $100 and not $700

3 chinese "black box" LEd's will cost $210..no program dimming and less spectrum choices..
so yes/no is really the answer to lighting big tanks w/ LED "cheap"..

ALWAYS a matter of opinion..


> I have 2x30w and a 50w in the middle on a 4ft. I previously had 2x54 t5ho and a 36w t8. The difference after changing over to the LED floods has been quite surprising with really fast growth on all of my plants. I also really like the shimmer that I get on the white wall behind the tank. As someone else has said, stick to Aussie seller with a warranty as the high watt diodes are not the most reliable going around but at least the sellers I have dealt with have been awesome at sorting out any issues.











https://www.qldaf.com/topic/97714-lighting-for-planted-tank/
Semi-commercial.. 

more semi-commercial [email protected] 5000k (or mix match) over a large tank will adequately light it..
just picked a random # to keep in a price point.. $100-ish

https://www.earthled.com/collection...immable-wet-outdoor-rated?variant=21563585988

90+ CRI should eliminate most "yellowing"..
1150L each.. 11,500 total..roughly 3 4ft tubes..."Delivery" equiv. (w/ correct placement) of 4-6 tubes..

NOTE: NOT an endorsement of how long they will last in the "real world' That is another story all together..


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## Smithim (Jan 25, 2018)

I've seen this entire thread before, actually many times before on the reef forums a few years ago. A lot of the same topics appeared "My corals aren't growing with LED's, switching back to T5's (or halogens)". A lot of the same arguments were used, and they are valid arguments that T5 can be cheaper in the short run and T5 has been proven to work. 

The conversations came down to our understanding of the spectrum being emitted by LED phosphors and the wattage going to the LED's against the fact that T5's throw out a comparatively wider spectrum in the majority of the bulbs, but the constant replacement of bulbs and ballasts had wearied some long time users. 

LED's then were just a bunch of blue and whites, and at 1 watt or less. (I still see some LED lights similar to that for planted tanks unfortunately.) It looked ok for the reef tank, but PAR dropped off after 12 inches of depth. So the power was upped, but corals didn't color up well. So we added some more spectrum. It still wasn't enough for the corals. So we added even more spectrum but sometimes in the wrong direction. I'm not sure if 470nm Cyan was ever needed. What we ended up with is very similar to what the Radions and AI Prime's are going for, a full spectrum graph of light going into the tank with powerful LEDs able to penetrate a deep depth. 

Freshwater XR15 Graph









No one has to spend hundreds upon hundreds for good LEDs. Tanks on here use everything from Chinese blackbox LEDs to Fluvals and Finnex lights with great results. LED lights do have their limits though and they aren't the magic wand of lighting that they are often advertised as. Gotta work within those limits. 

So T5 or LED? LED's offer better unit control while T5's offer an easier to utilize light source. LED's are slim and create less heat but T5's are initially inexpensive and can change out their entire spectrum with bulb changes. 

I find it interesting a new reef light called the Maxspect Recurve came out with diffused LED's on it's wings that are trying to simulate the T5 glow.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Agreed on most everything above.
as to reef's shadowing below corals and convoluted rocks is much more critical than in fw.
no chl B in sw..but do have carotenoids.

As to cyan and SW.. maybe not but still a bit arguable
I certainly consider it important in fw.. if only to differentiate shades of green/blue green.
On a photosynthesis basis certainly doesn't hurt and is a visual brightener.









Never bought into the puck philosophy fully though. Unf. it's manuf choice not mine..
first build for the 40b skeleton:









And old results w/ and w/out cyan:









Depending on height some "disco" can appear but very minimal. most spotting will come from condensation "lenses" on the glass..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Smithim said:


> No one has to spend hundreds upon hundreds for good LEDs. Tanks on here use everything from Chinese blackbox LEDs to Fluvals and Finnex lights with great results. LED lights do have their limits though and they aren't the magic wand of lighting that they are often advertised as. Gotta work within those limits.


I'm proud of my cheap DIY lights; I get great growth, the tank looks pretty good, and the lightbars themselves look great. 

The DIY LED solutions start to get expensive if you use higher quality components and controllers. Obviously commercial fixtures are using cheap leds, but they supplement them with color to get impressive results. The only way you are going to get quality light under the cost of commercial products is to use cheap LEDs supplemented with color. As soon as you start using high-CRI parts, the cost is already above a good commercial fixture.

I think what happens in these parts is that *most* of the builds are designed to be "better" not cheaper. This is why they end up costing so much. 





Smithim said:


> So T5 or LED? LED's offer better unit control while T5's offer an easier to utilize light source. LED's are slim and create less heat but T5's are initially inexpensive and can change out their entire spectrum with bulb changes.


With T5s, all of the research and complexity has already been done. You go to home depot, buy a fixture and choose the tubes you want. LEDs are evolving and there is no standard; everyone is basically rolling their own and there is no consensus on what looks best.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> It's worth it though..
> Rebuilt tank
> Orig:


Jeff is that your tank? If so, very, very nice. I don't think I have ever seen it before.

And I do believe building your own could be worth it, but it is no small undertaking for most. There are a lot things that have to go right to get a good final product. I consider myself a DIY'er, but it seems like more than I want to chew on. 

Do you remember SeanW's Ultimate LED build? No offence to Sean because I liked following him but it was comedy gold. It dang near drove him off the deep end trying to get that thing to work.

And this really has been helpful. Every once in a while, I take a look at the latest LED's to see if it has come to a point where I should consider them. So far it seems like it's just not quite there yet. And I do get that what I would be looking for is more light than most would want.

I do like the idea of all the controls, and having a new toy to play with. And if they come out with a reasonably priced unit that could replace the PAR, color, and coverage of my tubes at a reasonable price, I really would consider it.

So once again, thanks for all the information. It really was helpful.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Jeff is that your tank? If so, very, very nice. I don't think I have ever seen it before.
> 
> And I do believe building your own could be worth it, but it is no small undertaking for most. There are a lot things that have to go right to get a good final product. I consider myself a DIY'er, but it seems like more than I want to chew on.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately no vincel892's tank. We collaborated on the build..

LED light building is one of the easiest things one can build..
Just thermal glue em to a hunk of aluminum.. 









The electronic math is quite easy...

Sean chose to use the large DC output voltage drivers.. it was a frustrating thing to watch..


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

I haven't done the "high light" thing yet, but I've become more skeptical of "commercial" LEDs as I've watched mine die in far shorter hours than advertised.

On the Current Satellite Plus I bought back in 2014, all the whites still work, but on the colored diodes, only 2 red LEDs still work, about 1/2 of the greens and 2/3 of the blue still work.

For my Par38 experiment (26 watt LED bulbs) where I'm running 2 on the 150 and 2 on my "riparium", I've lost 4 of the bulbs completely, and a few of the diodes on one of the remaining bulbs. However, the Par38 bulbs are getting pretty cheap now, almost half the price compared to when I bought them just over 3 years ago. There are coverage issues with them, but for pure power, I think it would hard to beat that system on value (100 watts of LED for just over $70). No color tuning though, and they're not nearly as "sleek" as an LED bar. I guess its similar to jeffkrol's puck system.


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## SininStyle (Nov 13, 2014)

an active forum about LEDs, very exciting !

Just wanted to toss out this noob adventure I set out on just a few months ago. Never done plants but knew I didn't want to get into old tech bulbs but wasn't willing ti invest hundreds into what could end up being a train wreck.
Long story short, a 75g tank with 8 A19 LED bulbs. Made a box very much like a single bulb T5 strip you would get from a petshop just slightly taller. Hung it from some hangers. Ripped the globes off the heads of all the A19 bulbs so the LEDs would light straight down. Adjusted the height to change the intensity.
Anyway its growing plants. 5000k, 800 lumens each and yes lumens is a horrible measurement but its all I got to share. All in all cost was about $50-60 for 2 boxes of 6 bulbs, 8 cheap porcelain sockets, and some wiring. The box is made from scrap half inch plywood.
You math heads can fight over what spectrum I'm destroying lol


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## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

Let's not forget about the stack of old fluorescent tubes which has a tendency to build up over time. They can be difficult to dispose of properly and are even considered hazardous waste in some communities. Another good thing about doing it yourself is, when that time inevitably comes, you can also fix it yourself, instead of sending an expired warranted unit back to the factory for repair.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> To each their own.. just don't say LED can't "grow" things like t5...


Alright, alright, even though I do not believe I said that.
The 3 Current PRO grow red tiger lotus as well as T5s did :surprise:

Btw, I still miss my '89 Benz, our daughter is driving it now.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

OVT said:


> Alright, alright, even though I do not believe I said that.
> The 3 Current PRO grow red tiger lotus as well as T5s did :surprise:
> 
> Btw, I still miss my '89 Benz, our daughter is driving it now.


I have the impression that Current has touched a bunch of you in naughty places while you were small children...


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> Alright, alright, even though I do not believe I said that.
> The 3 Current PRO grow red tiger lotus as well as T5s did :surprise:
> 
> Btw, I still miss my '89 Benz, our daughter is driving it now.


Yeah I guess some would compare us old timers and their T5HO's to vinly and tube amps.:wink2:


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Eh just throwing out numbers I had for people curious about the cost differences over a year. Over here where the Edison electric company has a monopoly they charge me about $0.15 per kilowatt. Forgot what hey charge in winter but it's more than $0.15 usually.

Constants: 72" x 18" x 24" height Tank
30" between light and substrate

I think the total wattage of my 3 units (SBReef FW, 60%, ea unit has 2 60 watt power supplies) is about 216 watts. I run the lights 8hrs a day. I get about about 140ish PAR at the substrate at the majority of my tank.
Electricity cost per day: $0.2592
Electricity cost per month: $7.8894
Electricity cost per year: $94.6728

Now going with this, assuming I'm using 12 24" T5HO (4 T5HO per 24" length of my tank) to get with the in the same amount of PAR
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/97622-par-data-selecting-t5ho-light.html
24" T5HOs are usually 24 watts right? 12 * 24 = 288 Watts
Electricity cost per day: $0.3456
Electricity cost per month: $10.5192
Electricity cost per year: $126.23

If I go with 6 T5HO per 24"
432 Watts
Electricity cost per day: $0.5184
Electricity cost per month: $15.7788
Electricity cost per year: $189.346


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Eh just throwing out numbers I had for people curious about the cost differences over a year. Over here where the Edison electric company has a monopoly they charge me about $0.15 per kilowatt. Forgot what hey charge in winter but it's more than $0.15 usually.
> 
> Constants: 72" x 18" x 24" height Tank
> 30" between light and substrate
> ...


Um 5ft 80W T5HO fixtures exist. No need to go with a bunch of tiny fixtures.

I've owned many a fixture in both planted and reef tanks and made my own as well. To this day for plug and play I will take a good ATI t5 fixture over anything else. The only led I owned for reef that came close to T5 was my Philips Coralcare. Give me a similar light with planted spectrum and maybe led will have an edge.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

"Inexpensive" LED's can't "do" *140 PAR* at the substrate.. Need tubes for that.. 

surely you are mistaken... "snicker"....

and since you are running at* 60%* probably last 30 years till you need a bulb replacement.. (sorry minor sarcasm, prob need to solder in a few here and there.
or replace a "ballast"..) 

$404.85............($134.95/unit) 

Please take this all in tongue-in-cheek


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> Sean chose to use the large DC output voltage drivers.. it was a frustrating thing to watch..


This will only be amusing if you followed the thread, but here is a picture Sean posted in my journal. 

It was taken about 6 months after he started his Ultimate LED build. I remember when I read his post I did a small spit take of my morning coffee. Sean and that LED build had an epic battle......and I think the LED build won!!:grin2:


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> The only led I owned for reef that came close to T5


Reef's are a totally different animal for the most part..

Bump:


Greggz said:


> This will only be amusing if you followed the thread, but here is a picture Sean posted in my journal.
> 
> It was taken about 6 months after he started his Ultimate LED build. I remember when I read his post I did a small spit take of my morning coffee. Sean and that LED build had an epic battle......and I think the LED build won!!:grin2:


sorry, warned him not to use the large drivers.. too hard to troubleshoot..
Technically the fix was pretty easy, but patience was lost.. Plenty volunteered to take the project over..

as far as I remember.. he had no "skin in the game" all donated parts..


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Consumer lights like radions, ai, etc are not properly cooled because they have to retain their thin sleekness. Radions at anything past 50% run their fans at high speed and even then the fixture is still quite hot. Get ready to reach the 70% diode output life after about 5 years and that's hoping you don't burn a power supply or driver before that happens.

I can have a sunpower for 5 years and burn a ballast. All it takes to be back in business is 20 bucks. With an led not so much.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

gus6464 said:


> Um 5ft 80W T5HO fixtures exist. No need to go with a bunch of tiny fixtures.
> 
> I've owned many a fixture in both planted and reef tanks and made my own as well. To this day for plug and play I will take a good ATI t5 fixture over anything else. The only led I owned for reef that came close to T5 was my Philips Coralcare. Give me a similar light with planted spectrum and maybe led will have an edge.
> 
> Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


how bad is the shadow on ledges/6" on the left and right? general curiosity cuz I've always liked to match the length of the lights and the tank. 

math for the curious
5ft T5HO, assuming they're usually 80 watts ea. 4 Bulb unit
Electricity cost per day: $0.384
Electricity cost per month: $11.688
Electricity cost per year: $140.256

6 bulb unit
Electricity cost per day: $0.576
Electricity cost per month: $17.532
Electricity cost per year: $210.384


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> how bad is the shadow on ledges/6" on the left and right? general curiosity cuz I've always liked to match the length of the lights and the tank.


It helps if you stagger them. If you don't, there is a pretty significant drop off of PAR at the edges. And there is also a gradual drop off of PAR the further away from center of bulb, so PAR gradually drops off regardless at the edges. True of both tubes and LED. Less overlap. 

Here are some PAR values I posted in my journal. This fixture was on my 5 foot tank. Top bulbs are 60", and the other 4 are 48" staggered to minimize drop off. But you see it is still there. Might be more dramatic with LED as they are more directional.


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## Daud (Jun 23, 2007)

*decision made*

Wow, a long thread I started..

Thank you for making my decision. Having solar also helps..

Item	Sku	Qty	Subtotal
Giesemann Aqua Flora T5 Bulb, 48" (54W)	LT-GN-T5-AF-48	2	$46.70
Giesemann Midday T5 Bulb, 48" (54W)	LT-GN-T5-MD-48	2	$37.70
Grand Total (Incl.Tax)	$84.40

Now take some moss off my hands so I can pay the credit card :laugh2:


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Daud said:


> Wow, a long thread I started..
> 
> Thank you for making my decision. Having solar also helps..
> 
> ...


you got solar but want to keep putting Mercury in the landfills.. tsk tsk.. 

Had to borrow this from someone..



> Every time a fluorescent or halide fixture is scrapped, an angel gets its wings.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> an old Ford Mustang is easier to repair than a Tesla....... point is?
> 
> But you are right, and I've harped on it for years.. Finally Fluval did something about the channel restrictions.
> As to full power, fairly easy to get a light that is overpowered to compensate..
> ...


I'm a LED believer, but can't deny the impressive results from t5 and t8 fixtures.

At this point in time, LEDs may hold a PAR/Cost/Flexibility advantage, but you (kinda) need a background in Systems Engineering to make it work, or be willing to pay someone for their expertise.

Being held hostage by tube lighting and needing to frequently replace bulbs has put me off, and the nagging feeling that I will "see" the electricity bill go up, especially if running multiple tanks.

Even with generic aluminum stock and a cheap fan, its easy to keep LEDs cool and running in the range where they should last many years.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

There is no need to buy expensive t5 bulbs. The giesemann bulbs have meh spectrums anyway. Since the uvl red sun is gone the best replacement bulb for it is the wave point ultra cola. It goes well with their 12k white bulb.

You can get wave point bulbs in bulk for less than 10 bucks each. 

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

gus6464 said:


> . Since the uvl red sun is gone the best replacement bulb for it is the wave point ultra cola.


Oh man I hate that bulb, such a weird harsh purple. Just personal taste but I cant get it to look right with anything. Never tried it with their 12K white. Just going by the spectrum graph it seems like the perfect bulb.

A good option for the Red Sun is the Powerveg 633 and 660 by Eye Hortilux. The 633 will more closely match the red sun. 

I agree that high dollar bulbs are overrated. Although @Greggz just ran some PAR and PUR tests on Geishmans and they outperformed similar cheaper versions.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

burr740 said:


> Oh man I hate that bulb, such a weird harsh purple. Just personal taste but I cant get it to look right with anything. Never tried it with their 12K white. Just going by the spectrum graph it seems like the perfect bulb.
> 
> A good option for the Red Sun is the Powerveg 633 and 660 by Eye Hortilux. The 633 will more closely match the red sun.
> 
> I agree that high dollar bulbs are overrated. Although @Greggz just ran some PAR and PUR tests on Geishmans and they outperformed similar cheaper versions.


Weird. To me it looks pretty red maybe magenta and can't really notice any purple tinge to it.

I used to run a uvl red sun with an ultra cola and the 12k white neutralized a lot of the redness. It also helped visually to put the red bulbs in the back with the white in the front. This way when looking at table head on you don't notice the massive amounts of red as much.

Just looked at the PowerVeg 633 and 660 and they look super rad. Going to order a couple of both and run some combos in new tank. This is what I am thinking on my 8 bulb Powermodule.

Front to back

12k White
420 actinic
Powerveg 633
Powerveg 660
12k white
Ultra Cola
Powerveg 660
Powerveg 633


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> I agree that high dollar bulbs are overrated. Although @Greggz just ran some PAR and PUR tests on Geishmans and they outperformed similar cheaper versions.


Yeah Burr I actually wasn't expecting it, but the Geisemann's truly were the highest PAR bulbs I tested.

Just for an example, here is a Geisemann Super Flora, then a Truelumen Flora. Geisemann is over 30 more PAR. That is a significant difference. I have tests of other bulbs in the last few pages of my journal.

Whether it's worth it is a subject for debate. And that Powerveg 660 mentioned above provides a tremendous amount of color (it is REALLY red), but lower PAR. A good one to mix with other bulbs.


















Bump:


gus6464 said:


> Just looked at the PowerVeg 633 and 660 and they look super rad. Going to order a couple of both and run some combos in new tank. This is what I am thinking on my 8 bulb Powermodule.
> 
> Front to back
> 
> ...


You might also consider the ATI Purple Plus. Loads of color and quite good PAR compared to actinic.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Greggz said:


> Yeah Burr I actually wasn't expecting it, but the Geisemann's truly were the highest PAR bulbs I tested.
> 
> Just for an example, here is a Geisemann Super Flora, then a Truelumen Flora. Geisemann is over 30 more PAR. That is a significant difference. I have tests of other bulbs in the last few pages of my journal.
> 
> ...


I hate the ati purple plus. Tried it in both reef and planted tanks and just didnt like the look of it and how it combined with other bulbs. I like the ATI True Actinic because visually it's almost invisible but it has tons of PAR and it has the highest PUR for chloro A.

Anyone have a good source for those 660 and 633 bulbs in 2ft lengths? The prices online are kind of crazy.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

gus6464 said:


> I hate the ati purple plus. Tried it in both reef and planted tanks and just didnt like the look of it and how it combined with other bulbs. I like the ATI True Actinic because visually it's almost invisible but it has tons of PAR and it has the highest PUR for chloro A.
> 
> Anyone have a good source for those 660 and 633 bulbs in 2ft lengths? The prices online are kind of crazy.


Yeah beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I love it, but it's all a matter of personal taste.

And I have not seen a cheap source for the Powerveg's. I think they are pretty much the same price everywhere. If you find a cheaper source, be sure to post it. I have the 660 and might pick up a 633 to try.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Just for future reference... Alt+Print Screen makes it only capture the current window


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## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

All I can say is the first time you fire up a 36 watt COB is eye opening (and pupil constricting). And this is coming from an old school ODNO enthusiast who still has an Icecap 660.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

napaeozapus said:


> All I can say is the first time you fire up a 36 watt COB is eye opening (and pupil constricting). And this is coming from an old school ODNO enthusiast who still has an Icecap 660.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If kessil or someone made 90+ cri soda cans I'd be all over it, or if someone would sell the soda can parts... my handiwork on heatsinks is UGLY... but I don't really like the light that kessils put out.
I'm not sure I trust these people's numbers... but they're cheap enough I'm thinking of ordering some anyhow. https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/New-products-LED-Aquarium-Fish-Tank_60754480021.html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.maylikever.16.42461dd1TTrFGh

I wonder how much they would "customize" if I only wanted like 2... and how much it would cost. Can I trade some blues out? Need to work on my engrish


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Wobblebonk said:


> If kessil or someone made 90+ cri soda cans I'd be all over it, or if someone would sell the soda can parts... my handiwork on heatsinks is UGLY... but I don't really like the light that kessils put out.
> I'm not sure I trust these people's numbers... but they're cheap enough I'm thinking of ordering some anyhow. https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...m=a2700.icbuShop.maylikever.16.42461dd1TTrFGh
> 
> I wonder how much they would "customize" if I only wanted like 2... and how much it would cost. Can I trade some blues out? Need to work on my engrish












LOL.. good spectrum though.. Looks like the ones that were being built here..

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1234473-high-cri-led-fixture-some-accent-chips.html


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

gus6464 said:


> I used to run a uvl red sun with an ultra cola and the 12k white neutralized a lot of the redness. It also helped visually to put the red bulbs in the back with the white in the front. This way when looking at table head on you don't notice the massive amounts of red as much.


That is exactly what I do otherwise the reds are too prominent to the eye.

Im gonna try a couple of 12000Ks. Ever since adding moss walls to the 120 I havent been able to make a combo I really like. In spite of having nearly every type bulb there is on hand. Something about all that extra green. A crisp white might be just the ticket.

I use purple plus (to me its more blue) and 420 actinics to tone down the red.

10000Ks wont do it, plus they have way too much green




gus6464 said:


> Just looked at the PowerVeg 633 and 660 and they look super rad. Going to order a couple of both and run some combos in new tank.


The 633 is a little warmer to the eye than the 660. If you compare the pictures, that is about what the difference looks like in person.

Here's one for $22, never ordered from these guys. Most everywhere Ive seen they run about $30




gus6464 said:


> This is what I am thinking on my 8 bulb Powermodule.
> 
> Front to back
> 
> ...


Woah, I can tell you now that is going to be EXTREMELY red. Cant imagine having four of those poweveg at the same time. Two will be pushing it. You'll see what I mean if you get them.

Have you ever tried 3000Ks? Plants love them and they do a good job warming things up a little. Definitely need some blues along with it though because its a very harsh yellow otherwise. They are beasts as far as PAR goes too.

I'd love to see pictures when you get this up and running


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> Have you ever tried 3000Ks? Plants love them and they do a good job warming things up a little. Definitely need some blues along with it though because its a very harsh yellow otherwise. They are beasts as far as PAR goes too.


Here you go Burr.......and yes, the Plantmax 3000k is a high PAR beast for a heavily colored bulb. And it does have a harsh quality to it. It gave me too much PAR, so it's off the rotation for now.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Greggz said:


> Here you go Burr.......and yes, the Plantmax 3000k is a high PAR beast for a heavily colored bulb. And it does have a harsh quality to it. It gave me too much PAR, so it's off the rotation for now.


Excellent, thanks man. Not a very good pur score compared to some others...whatever thats worth


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> Excellent, thanks man. Not a very good pur score compared to some others...whatever thats worth


The Seneye don't lie!

And the whole PUR discussion is something I would like to learn more about.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> Im gonna try a couple of 12000Ks. Ever since adding moss walls to the 120 I havent been able to make a combo I really like. In spite of having nearly every type bulb there is on hand. Something about all that extra green.


Can't just slide a slider huh.. Sorry.. coudn't resist..

People grow plants hate green.. odd.......... again..coudn't resist..


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## RLee (Sep 21, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> an old Ford Mustang is easier to repair than a Tesla....... point is?
> 
> But you are right, and I've harped on it for years.. Finally Fluval did something about the channel restrictions.
> As to full power, fairly easy to get a light that is overpowered to compensate..
> ...





jeffkrol said:


> Don't really think one saves money.. It's complicated..
> most cost savings will be more so in the near future,. when 200 lumens/watt is more common.
> On a unit" basis.. think of it this way.. 200L/ w is 2X the radiant flux of tubes.. 120 degree directional increases delivery.. so "best case" you will only need 1/4W to get the same photon content out as 1W of T5 (actually t8's are more efficient but still not near 200L/ W).................0.2 Kw vs 0.8kw per day..........assuming 100W t5
> 
> ...


So this is your definition of "unobtrusive" "visually pleasing". OK
%90 of people out there are not going to want to build or have the skills to build what you have described.
Led's are the future, but price point is not there........... yet.
I would like to see a pic of your tank with your custom LED fixture. I have limited experience with high end LED. All of the end user types I have tried have not offered the power I require.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

RLee said:


> So this is your definition of "unobtrusive" "visually pleasing". OK
> %90 of people out there are not going to want to build or have the skills to build what you have described.
> Led's are the future, but price point is not there........... yet.
> I would like to see a pic of your tank with your custom LED fixture. I have limited experience with high end LED. All of the end user types I have tried have not offered the power I require.


Lol I was trying to hold my tongue on that as well. I have tried to build many an LED that did not look like crap glued together but I gave up. In the end buying quality parts cost as much as the consumer stuff.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

90% of the people would choose not to build it.. If you can solder and follow simple instructions little of it is rocket science.. 
More like Tinker toys...

but yes, I understand what you are getting at..










Each "unobtrusive" puck is capable of the same light output as a 24" T5HO (21/2 T5HO 48" tubes total.).. Yea need to work on the height a bit..
and due to some ambient light spill dialing this in has been a bear.. Chips are running under 50% of capacity and less w/ programmed dimming throughout the day.

Consider it more of an example of unobrusive-ness than quality.. 

$10 copper computer heatsinks capable of >45W heat dissipation.. chips "heatsink plaster-ed" to the copper..
2 wires soldered to them going to a pre-made driver board. (more tinker toys..)

look few really want to do all this.. and hey nothing wrong w/ that.. but don't make it "mysterious"..it really isn't..

40B has a 6" pine hood. so like a t5 though much lighter and less bulk..(see frame).
Sorry all current photos have it cut off.. mostly for size..
Frame:









not even "proper" heatsinks.. 1/8" thick aluminum strips..
compared to a tube "frame" ..it's paper thin..1" black aluminum framing around it would be ideal..


What can I say.. I like messing w/ LED lights
AND I'm SURE others can do much better..


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

In defense of "t5-like" fixtures..Tank 2 years ago w/ a 4' LED shop light..
Just placed on the glass
4000K 4000Lumens... pss poor CRi..someday that will be a lot better.
Plants were transplants from the 40 for cycling.. Didn't "grow up" there..










Fairly unobtrusive but PIA to work around..

5 yrs ago and my "gutter" phase using 10000k/actinic hybrid 10W chips and others..

Prob 100W under there..


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Has anyone other than myself, noted that lighting seems to appear in it's truest form to our eye's when it is the only light in the room?
My tank's light's come on at 2: 00 PM when I arrive home from work,and they are programmed to turn off at 10:00 PM .
Tanks to MY eye's, look their best after sun set's and no other ambient light in the room.
I realize other's might have different lighting period's that correspond with their preferred viewing time,just wondering out loud.
Have experimented with different viewing times and spectrums but like my present time best.
Tanks too close together can make lighting look less attractive/conflicting.Ditto for lighting hung too high for viewing anything but the bulbs from across the room on the couch.
I still run bulbs, but also like some of the LED lighting.
Easier for me to try different bulbs T8's ,T5's, than LED for tuning in color spectrums I might like .
Plant's appear unfazed so long as I don't try to run too much light energy.(low tech/ energy)They grow under bout any lighting.
I leave it to other's to debate what spectrum is better/best but always seem to run what looks best to my eye,and also makes fishes colors more appealing.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Human visual translation of the world is.. err ..bizarrre...
Take moonlight.. Measures around 4000K...
In daylight (bright) 4000k will look "warm". 
Partial explanation for you..


> The effect occurs because the color-sensitive cones in the retina are most sensitive to green light, whereas the rods, which are more light-sensitive (and thus more important in low light) but which do not distinguish colors, respond best to green-blue light.[4] This is why humans become virtually color-blind under low levels of illumination, for instance moonlight.
> 
> The Purkinje effect occurs at the transition between primary use of the photopic (cone-based) and scotopic (rod-based) systems, that is, in the mesopic state: as intensity dims, the rods take over, and before color disappears completely, it shifts towards the rods' top sensitivity.[5]
> 
> Rod sensitivity improves considerably after 5–10 minutes in the dark,[6] but rods take about 30 minutes of darkness to regenerate photoreceptors and reach full sensitivity.[7]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purkinje_effect

So as light dims (no sun ect) your color perception changes..
Not real romantic huh..your perception of colors changes w/ intensity..
Tanks may look bright in a dark room but quite dull in full sunlight..and color sensitivity shifts..


Anyways, also agree w/ all you wrote..but it is always easier to choose colors when the choice isn't infinite..


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## Daltonr70 (Feb 20, 2018)

I'm seeing up a 55 gallon planted tank for discus I have 2 T5HO bulbs for a reef tank what bulbs should I swap them for to use on the planet tank


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

It is not so much the brightness,or darkness that I tend to focus on but rather the different contrast's in color on leaves of different plant's.
I can like many other's, make the tank look much brighter overall with more light energy.
Agree also with perception of our eye's, that plant's may see differently.
More to the point for me, is /are plant's ability to utilize near any light.
The 4000k bulbs mentioned don't just look warm to my eye's,but downright orange.
I like a 10,00k bulb (mine look blue when illuminated),combined with 6000K or 6700K.
Just my preference.
If I was told for example, that 4000K bulb was only spectrum that would provide for the plant's needs,then I would go back to hardscape tanks and the Cichlid's.
I have found through experimenting that many color spectrum combination's can achieve good result's.
It ain't always about how much PAR you can run at 22 inches, but hard to move people off their high $$ lighting or run newer fixtures at 50 or 60 % once they see hoe bright overall the tank is at 100%.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Daltonr70 said:


> I'm seeing up a 55 gallon planted tank for discus I have 2 T5HO bulbs for a reef tank what bulbs should I swap them for to use on the planet tank


Much would depend on low tech tank with plant's that can thrive under less light energy, or high tech CO2 injected tank with plant's that perform poorly without more light energy CO2 availability and maybe also more nutrient's.
Would be neat to set up large planted display tank and get it dialed in over some week's /month's, while rearing Young Discus in another tank, with just frequent water changes and the several small feeding's a day that they would need to achieve pleasing growth.
Would want planted tank thriving before introducing young or Adult fishes of near any species.
Easier to watch plants,and make adjustment's with respect to plant's need's without also worrying about fishes and reactions from said tweaks or adjustment's.
For low tech fifty five gal Discus, Two t8's might suffice with lower light demanding plant's.
My personal opinion ,,,two T5's would land me in area of concern over how to provide more CO2.
Light energy drives demand always. Color spectrum,,not so much IMHO


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

RLee said:


> So this is your definition of "unobtrusive" "visually pleasing". OK
> %90 of people out there are not going to want to build or have the skills to build what you have described.
> Led's are the future, but price point is not there........... yet.
> I would like to see a pic of your tank with your custom LED fixture. I have limited experience with high end LED. All of the end user types I have tried have not offered the power I require.


Here is my unobtrusive LED light. They are built into the Aqueon light bars that came with the hood, and look completely stock. There are no dangling wires, they use the stock plug and switch built into the hood.

The light bars currently house 60x 3W LEDs but could fit 90x. IN fact, I (was) in the process of installing a row of color adjustable leds before life interfered. As they sit, the bars are too bright with all 60x leds engaged, I run them with 40x and growth is great. 

Stock look, check. Power, check. Price ( <$100), check.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Very creative Chris!


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## MrMan (Dec 5, 2014)

RLee said:


> So this is your definition of "unobtrusive" "visually pleasing". OK
> %90 of people out there are not going to want to build or have the skills to build what you have described.
> Led's are the future, but price point is not there........... yet.
> I would like to see a pic of your tank with your custom LED fixture. I have limited experience with high end LED. All of the end user types I have tried have not offered the power I require.





gus6464 said:


> Lol I was trying to hold my tongue on that as well. I have tried to build many an LED that did not look like crap glued together but I gave up. In the end buying quality parts cost as much as the consumer stuff.


I'm late to the party but just read through it all, it's definetly hard to build a nice looking DIY LED but that was my goal when I built this one:










It cost about $275 to build and the alternative would have been two AI Primes for $400 (plus mount I think). It's running at max 120W but the driver can handle more, just the power supply limiting it right now and its more than bright enough as is. So personally I think it looks comparable to consumer and was cheaper (Although I'd still like to improve my hanging of it).


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

MrMan said:


> I'm late to the party but just read through it all, it's definetly hard to build a nice looking DIY LED but that was my goal when I built this one:
> It cost about $275 to build and the alternative would have been two AI Primes for $400 (plus mount I think). It's running at max 120W but the driver can handle more, just the power supply limiting it right now and its more than bright enough as is. So personally I think it looks comparable to consumer and was cheaper (Although I'd still like to improve my hanging of it).


so, at least, equiv of 5 24" (24W) t5HO tubes...


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## Smithim (Jan 25, 2018)

MrMan said:


> I'm late to the party but just read through it all, it's definetly hard to build a nice looking DIY LED but that was my goal when I built this one:
> 
> It's running at max 120W but the driver can handle more, just the power supply limiting it right now and its more than bright enough as is.


Do I read correctly that you run it daily at the full 120w? Any measurements or guesses on the par hitting the substrate?


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## MrMan (Dec 5, 2014)

Smithim said:


> Do I read correctly that you run it daily at the full 120w? Any measurements or guesses on the par hitting the substrate?


When I first set it up I ran it at about 80W but it was way too bright so I've dialed it back now to 40-50W. Even at this setting it's so much brighter than my e-series was at ~45W. I've been trying to find a PAR meter to borrow to test my light but no luck yet... I thought there was a USB one out that was like $100 but I think the cheapest I found was 200.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

MrMan said:


> When I first set it up I ran it at about 80W but it was way too bright so I've dialed it back now to 40-50W. Even at this setting it's so much brighter than my e-series was at ~45W. I've been trying to find a PAR meter to borrow to test my light but no luck yet... I thought there was a USB one out that was like $100 but I think the cheapest I found was 200.


Both statements could be correct. GreggZ found a used Seneye Reef meter on eek bay for around $100 and I payed $200 for a new Seneye Reef. These are powered by a USB port - either your computers or a phone type charger. As long as the Seneye has power it is recording data. Once plugged into your computer, data is uploaded to the supplied software. Pretty slick system.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

MrMan said:


> When I first set it up I ran it at about 80W but it was way too bright so I've dialed it back now to 40-50W. Even at this setting it's so much brighter than my e-series was at ~45W. I've been trying to find a PAR meter to borrow to test my light but no luck yet... I thought there was a USB one out that was like $100 but I think the cheapest I found was 200.


Nice color too. What individual leds did you use?


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## MrMan (Dec 5, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> Nice color too. What individual leds did you use?


None... yet :grin2: Freshfish COB for the main light and some warm white COBs (crispwhite 3K which has some UV) for sunrise/sunset. I think I'll add some 660 reds to get a warmer sunrise, not sure anything else is really needed as I think just the Freshfish looks amazing.


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## Patriot (Dec 22, 2010)

Interesting read. I think I'll stick with T5HO longer. I do want to upgrade from a 4 bulb fixture to a 6 if possible. Or whatever will allow me to cover the top of the tank. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## kamla (Feb 17, 2005)

Daud said:


> Wow, a long thread I started..
> 
> Thank you for making my decision. Having solar also helps..
> 
> ...


Where did you buy your blubs from ?

Thax Kamla


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## Daud (Jun 23, 2007)

kamla said:


> Where did you buy your blubs from ?
> 
> Thax Kamla


 AquaCave.com


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## kamla (Feb 17, 2005)

Daud said:


> AquaCave.com


Thax Daud :smile2:

how many bulbs do u suggest for a 120 Gal tank. 2 or 4?
i plan to keep low light plants for now


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## Daud (Jun 23, 2007)

kamla said:


> Thax Daud :smile2:
> 
> how many bulbs do u suggest for a 120 Gal tank. 2 or 4?
> i plan to keep low light plants for now


At least 4. What is the height of the water column ?


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## kamla (Feb 17, 2005)

Daud said:


> At least 4. What is the height of the water column ?



my tank is a 120 Gal 
48x24x24

do you have pics of your tank with the lights on?

Thax for all your help

kamla


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## Daud (Jun 23, 2007)

At the end, I went with new set of bulbs in 2018, still running them but suddenly lost light in a pair of tubes, must be the ballast (tubes are OK). 
I looked inside, it is the UPC 781087119044 Philips Advance ICN-2S54-90C. Shall I get the same one, not many places carry it, instead: REPLACED WITH ICN2S5490C-T.

Has anything changed on the t5ho vs LED scene after 4 years ? My original question was whether it makes economical sense put money in new set of 4 tubes (and now ballast).


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## rzn7z7 (Aug 17, 2013)

Daud said:


> Has anything changed on the t5ho vs LED scene after 4 years ? My original question was whether it makes economical sense put money in new set of 4 tubes (and now ballast).


Can't speak to T5 but it seems like there's new LED offerings daily. If interested I'd look into any brand that features RGB-in-1 LEDs like Chihiros, LedStar or Week Aqua


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Hobbies rarely make economical sense ..


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