# LED Lighting for a massive planted Lac Fwa biotope



## Chalcosoma (Jun 16, 2013)

Hello everyone

I have read the lighting FAQ. Looking for suggestions for lighting a huge tank (200cm X 85cm X 75cm H) based on Lac Fwa. Plants will include plenty of _Vallisneria_ and _Nymphaea zenkeri,_ possibly more. 

For reference, see the natural habitat here: 

http://www.aquabiotope.org/t345-lac-mfwa-fwa-un-bijou-de-cristal-dans-un-ecrin-de-verdure
http://www.aquapress-bleher.com/projects/

I would like the following:

1. As close to natural sunlight in appearance as possible.
2. Nice shimmer effect.
3. Natural looking shadows.
4. Strong enough for light-loving plants like Nymphaea.
5. Low heat output.
6. Adjustable spectrum and output to simulate sunrise and sunset effects.
7. Adjustable mounting enabling me to angle the light slightly.

I would not like:

1. "Disco-ball" effect seen with some lights.
2. Unnatural absence of shadows.
3. Unnaturally stark shadows.

To this end I have been reviewing Kessils like Tuna Sun and Amazon Sun, Maxspect Razors, and Build My LED. I keep hearing good things about Kessils, but also read that the PAR is not even close to an equivalent MH light.

Appreciate any experience you have with these lights.

Thanks!


- Michael


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

The area's described I think ,, Plant's would not even see/recognize ,sunrise /sunset affect due to tree canopy overhead.
Light would be more available at high noon than at dusk/dawn.
With this in mind,I might select fairly hardy plant's that do well with lower lighting which in turn would maybe make lighting selection less worrisome?
Metal halides would provide the most light,and shimmering effect, but they run Hot and light bill would run high.

IMHO


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## Chalcosoma (Jun 16, 2013)

Hi Roadmaster

Although the banks are heavily vegetated, the area is basically a savannah. The "lake" is a wide and slow section of river with many springs in it, hence the crystal clear water. Since it is over a kilometer wide in places, only the banks would be partially shaded and cut out part of sunrise or sunset. Granted, it would not get as far as a very low sunrise or sunset in any case. That is more for the sake of not shocking the fish, and for aesthetic reasons.

I am going for a bit of realism here, and it is a biotope. So there will be no Anubias, Bolbitis, etc. since these are low light and do not occur there. The area is extremely brightly lit by sunlight in really crystal clear water (even from outside, you can always see the bottom several meters down, it's that clear) with huge fields of Vallisneria and gigantic (up to 6 meters or more) Potamogeton, etc. It is like a truly giant densely planted aquarium in nature.

Because I live in Bahrain, heat is an issue. Even with some air con, the tank will likely need a chiller just to keep it in an acceptable range during the summer when it reaches 45C + outside.

This is challenging, and it is going to be expensive. But it is also going to be fun.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Chalcosoma said:


> Hi Roadmaster
> 
> Although the banks are heavily vegetated, the area is basically a savannah. The "lake" is a wide and slow section of river with many springs in it, hence the crystal clear water. Since it is over a kilometer wide in places, only the banks would be partially shaded and cut out part of sunrise or sunset. Granted, it would not get as far as a very low sunrise or sunset in any case. That is more for the sake of not shocking the fish, and for aesthetic reasons.
> 
> ...


 
Ahh,I see.
The one set of photos appeared to be more like pools of water or stream's with relatively thick overhang of tree's .
This would be more in line with the shadow's you mentioned for not much light would penetrate .
In any event,vals can grow with much less light than one might think, but to get low carpet type cover would require more.
Fishes with few exception's in my experiences fishing,, would be found largely near the banks of the streams in biotopes pictured where cover is close by, and bright light could be avoided.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Chalcosoma said:


> Hello everyone
> 
> I have read the lighting FAQ. Looking for suggestions for lighting a huge tank (200cm X 85cm X 75cm H) based on Lac Fwa. Plants will include plenty of _Vallisneria_ and _Nymphaea zenkeri,_ possibly more.
> 
> ...


https://www.reefbreeders.com/shop/photon-32/

[email protected] 32" and a custom spectrum..

Or Dsuny ... 

Both will do custom spectrums..
Easiest thing would be a 3500K / red channel and a 6500k/blue channel..


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Great project, hope you decide to keep a photo journal of the tank's progress here. 

I think you need the appearance of a very bright tank more than actual sun power, the plants you are using don't need that much light. I flowered a lily with MH that only provided 250PAR at 12" from the light. Clear water, lots of ripple on the water surface and good shadows are what to look for.

Reefbreeders has another fixture just out that has a wireless remote. Only 60" long but hung high with 120* lenses if it can have a custom spectrum? It would have been a contender for me as it is US serviced even though it is made in China.

I have a 60" long LEDZeal unit imported directly from the Chinese manufacturer that would likely work if you put 120* lenses on it or go with a couple 3' or 4' long units. With the unit 38" off the substrate the bottom edges of the 67x24x24" lit area of my tank get 40PAR with cool white at 90% and the other colors at 30% which is plenty to grow hairgrass and Blyxa. The tank appears very bright with nice shimmering because the tank has a heavy ripple going the length of the tank. Also great shadows under the wood and over hanging plants, do love the effect a lot. I am sure RB or DSunY are about the same in this regard. My unit is cool to the touch at all times although the power supply fan is always running.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Example of DSuny 2 channel:
http://youtu.be/jFzfLmBmfDc
http://youtu.be/Pr0tbN_9e00
http://youtu.be/kHX1hosIgzE


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## Chalcosoma (Jun 16, 2013)

Thanks for all the informative replies! I am looking into all these suggestions and I will definitely keep a photo journal. 

I am curious about the the Kessils however. Are they overrated, overpriced, or just overkill for this application?

Now the challenge of where to get rocks and driftwood. That ain't easy here either.

Regards


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Chalcosoma said:


> Thanks for all the informative replies! I am looking into all these suggestions and I will definitely keep a photo journal.
> 
> I am curious about the the Kessils however. Are they overrated, overpriced, or just overkill for this application?
> 
> ...


Let see ..
First you would need at least 3 A360's A160's ($717)
No spectrum
No diode color chart
No PAR chart
ONLY:


> The A360 has the added benefit of tunability between 6000-9000K.


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## dcutl002 (Apr 8, 2014)

I like the Kessil lights. It grows DHG very well so I have no complaints. Are they expensive? Yes. But the DHG "pearls" so what else can you ask for?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Bump: http://aquarium-digest.com/tag/kessil/#kessil


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## Chalcosoma (Jun 16, 2013)

OkeyDokey

That is very helpful! I am looking into the TMCs….still like the look of the Kessils though. Not sure how useful the 5 year warranty on the TMCs is, since it will be difficult to arrange repairs or replacements from Bahrain anyway.

Jeffkrol, actually I think it would need 6-7, so we are talking double the cost. But damn they look nice.

What is so special about the Cree technology and Osram emitters? I see them mentioned often, but not explained.

Just got glass delivered and will start assembly of the tank this weekend. This is exciting.

Regards


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

I have three of the 360WEs and I can tell you there is no issue with growing plants.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Okedokey said:


> I have three of the 360WEs and I can tell you there is no issue with growing plants.


but let me throw this in.. If you want a sunset light on an African savanna.. Forget it. ain't happening..


> The A360 has the added benefit of tunability between 6000-9000K.












Bump:


Chalcosoma said:


> Jeffkrol, actually I think it would need 6-7, so we are talking double the cost. But damn they look nice.
> 
> What is so special about the Cree technology and Osram emitters? I see them mentioned often, but not explained.


buzz words to make you think they are not Chinese emitters..


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## dcutl002 (Apr 8, 2014)

Yeah, take note that the chart has the A150. Kessil now has the A360 Tuna Sun which has much more power. Of course if you do not need that much there is the A160 Tuna Sun. The A160 is an upgrade from the A150. 


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Lol the sunset on an african savana. The water would be pitch black.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Okedokey said:


> Lol the sunset on an african savana. The water would be pitch black.


Really????? 









Sunrise but you get the picture..


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Are you trolling?

They're both photoshoped images. Your original 'sunset' rubbish is completely red light which is attenuated in water virtually immediately and under that scenario, the water would be dark.

The images you just posted, first is photoshoped massively...so yeah.

The point to the OP is the Kessils are fine, good quality lights. Yes, if you want complete dimming to below 13%, then get something else.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Okedokey said:


> Are you trolling?
> 
> They're both photoshoped images. Your original 'sunset' rubbish is completely red light which is attenuated in water virtually immediately and under that scenario, the water would be dark.
> 
> ...


no what I'm saying is their color spectrum "range" sucks..
and yes I realize that those images definitely were post processed..


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

I disagree. As an owner of these lights, I can alter the spectrum and intensity quite well.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Okedokey said:


> I disagree. As an owner of these lights, I can alter the spectrum and intensity quite well.


show me your 4000K equiv..."Dull" 6000k is not 4000K 
I realize it is a personal thing.. But if "I'm" paying $350 plus for an LED it better dance a little more..
At least allow adj. from say 4000K to 9000K

That said the quantity of light is not really in question..nor the "cool factor".. 

I have a few other things against the Kessils but I'll leave that for now..

Maybe I'm just reading this wrong........


> Variable Color Temperature: Using the color spectrum knob on the top of the light you can tune the LEDs to your desired color temperature. 6000K? 8100K? 9000K? No problem.


Blue/white to more blue/less white light.. Some people do like it..

to be honest it is not "just" a Kessil "problem"...


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Ok, your opinion is yours to have. My opinion is that it looks just fine as below...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Okedokey said:


> Ok, your opinion is yours to have. My opinion is that it looks just fine as below...



I never said it didn't look fine.. 
That was never the point..












> When the sun is lower in the sky at sunrise or sunset, sunlight must pass sideways through a much longer and denser section of the earth's atmosphere, which scatters most of the "blue" and "green" wavelengths to produce a distinctly yellow or red hue. (Sunlight is also reddened by dust storms, ash from volcanic eruptions or the smoke from large fires.) This lends morning or late afternoon light a strong yellow or red bias, climaxing in the deep orange of sunrise or sunset. Morning light has a softer, rosier color, in part because the cooler night air has a higher relative humidity that produces long wavelength filtering morning fogs or mists, and in part because the drop in temperature abates daytime winds and convection currents, allowing dust and smoke to settle out of the atmosphere.
> 
> Thus, the illumination that reveals our world is not constant but varies across a broad swath of tints from cool blues to warm yellows and reds. The eye is adapted to minimize the distorting effect that these color changes in the light have on the color appearance of objects.


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

I understand Mie scattering mate, im an environmental scientist.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Okedokey said:


> I understand Mie scattering mate, im an environmental scientist.


Then you should have understood how restricting the spectrum of your light is NOT the way to emulate a biotope..
unless of course you want some static diorama..

sounds more like defending your own position than answering the op's needs..



> 1. As close to natural sunlight in appearance as possible.
> 2. Nice shimmer effect.
> 3. Natural looking shadows.
> 4. Strong enough for light-loving plants like Nymphaea.
> ...


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## dcutl002 (Apr 8, 2014)

Jeffkrol is alright. He just thinks Kessils are overpriced. I'm cool with that. I still prefer Kessil, just something about them. But, no Jeff isn't trolling...just discussing.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

dcutl002 said:


> Jeffkrol is alright. He just thinks Kessils are overpriced. I'm cool with that. I still prefer Kessil, just something about them. But, no Jeff isn't trolling...just discussing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was really just saying Kessil's don't address the op's needs, as I understand or envision them.. 
But thanks..



> 6. Adjustable spectrum and output to simulate sunrise and sunset effects.


This is unarguably not the strength of the Kessils based on the physical reality of sunlight over a daylight period..A Kessil can't even imitate noon light @5500K. 
I think Kessils could have been designed to be more than they are.. BUT that goes for another dozen or so light companies.. 

not publishing a spectrum is also kind of a BOSE thing.. If you get my drift..


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## dcutl002 (Apr 8, 2014)

Hey, you trollin me? LOL! Gotcha buddy. 


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

dcutl002 said:


> Hey, you trollin me? LOL! Gotcha buddy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Somedays I just say too much...


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> Then you should have understood how restricting the spectrum of your light is NOT the way to emulate a biotope..
> unless of course you want some static diorama..
> 
> sounds more like defending your own position than answering the op's needs..


You're not emulating anything. The red light doesn't make it into the water. The kesssils change the colour and brightness very well, remember, its the human eye afterall, the plants couldn't care less. my lights turn off at 11pm and at 10:30 every night they begin to close up as the frequency and intensity ramps down.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Okedokey said:


> You're not emulating anything. The red light doesn't make it into the water.


now your just trying to argue..


> *Light Absorption by Pure Water*
> 
> We generally think of pure water as a clear liquid when it is, in fact, a blue liquid - it absorbs blue wavelengths weakly but begins to absorb light more strongly at wavelengths above ~550nm. It significantly absorbs red light (about 35% of red light (680nm) is absorbed by a 1-meter deep column of pure water.) See Figure 4 for absorption coefficients.












http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/12/lighting

Again.. apprently, I never said anything about Kessils being able to grow plants..
I was always referring to the changing "quality" of light....


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

The point you made originally was that the 'red' light from an african sunset would not be able to be emulated with Kessil. My point is, there is nothing to emulate as red light doesnt penetrate so at that stage, its dark. You are just as likely to have pink light as say well, well, you cannot emulate a girls party in this tank, that LED sux.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Okedokey said:


> My point is, there is nothing to emulate as red light doesnt penetrate so at that stage, its dark.


What are you basing that on???
What you see on the surface? What poor human vision in the red band shows you??

Plants don't have eyes..











> Simulated appearance of a red geranium and foliage in normal bright-light (photopic) vision, dusk (mesopic) vision, and night (scotopic) vision


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purkinje_effect


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Dude what are you on about? Red light doesn't penetrate water beyond very shallow depths so any 'naturally' looking environment will not have much red at all.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Okedokey said:


> Dude what are you on about? Red light doesn't penetrate water beyond very shallow depths so any 'naturally' looking environment will not have much red at all.


you can't use that skewed chart for anything.. 



> It significantly absorbs red light (about 35% of red light (680nm) is absorbed by a 1-meter deep column of pure water.) See Figure 4 for absorption coefficients.


sure the middle of a deep water lake ect.. But not edge shallows..
I guess it does depend on the "exact' spot you want to pick:


> ‘Lac‘ Fwa is indeed a (short) river rather than a lake, which arises from six ore more springs and flows into Lubi River, an affluent of the Sankuru, a major tributary of the Kasai (Congo drainage). Although it is situated in a dry savannah or mixed woodland area, the river banks are heavily vegetated. The width and maximum depth of the river varies considerably (from several tens to more than a hundred meters and 2-8m, respectively; in the deepest springs the depth is up to 22m). The river banks are well defined but difficult to approach due to the rockiness, dense shore vegetation, roots, logs and other debris. The river bottom consists predominantly of fine white sand, alternating with stretches of cobblestones, huge boulders and dense stands of aquatic plants (mostly Vallisneria aethiopica).
> The water is very clear, Schupke (1994) gives the following parameters: ph 8.07, conductivity 310 µS/cm, carbonate hardness 7.2 °dH, total hardness 7.4°dH, sodium 13 mg/l, potassium 2.1 mg/l, calcium 28 mg/l, magnesium 15 mg/l, iron 0.043 mg/l, nitrate 1.6 mg/l, chloride 18 mg/l, sulfate 9 mg/l, phosphate 0.07 mg/l, hydrogen carbonate 156 mg/l.
> 21 species of non-cichlids are recorded from the Fwa, most of them widespread in the Congo Basin. In contrast, five of the six cichlid species are endemic, the exceptional species is Hemichromis cf. elongatus.
> 
> ...



I don't picture this at 10M..








http://www.aquapress-bleher.com/images/zoom/Lac Fwa/08_Democratic-Republic-of-Congo.jpg

http://www.cichlidae.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8371


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Whatever mate.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Okedokey said:


> Whatever mate.





> My point is, there is nothing to emulate as red light doesnt penetrate


you do know as it stands this statement is garbage???

I think I understand what you are trying to imply.. BUT as the above statement stands.. SHOW me one thing that states "red light doesn't penetrate water". One.

sure none after 10 feet.. 3 meters..



> Absorption also restricts how far light penetrates into the water. At about three meters (about 10 feet), roughly 60 percent of the total light (sunlight or moonlight) and almost all the red light will be absorbed. At 10 meters (about 33 feet), about 85 percent of the total light and all the red, orange, and yellow light have been absorbed


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## Chalcosoma (Jun 16, 2013)

Hi guys

I really did not intend to cause trouble here, but I do appreciate the opinions. Although I don't require an actual blazing red fireball to set on the edge of the aquarium, I do want something that mimics the spectrum for sunrise, sunset, and noon (though it does not necessarily need to be precise). Yet it also needs to have good depth penetration and look as close to sunlight as possible. 

Now I am honestly considering a combination of Kessils with some wider spectrum. range. Maybe the Kessils could come on towards midday, and some Maxspect or Aquarays would cover the whole day including the sunrise/sunset, which would coincide with reduced intensity anyway.

Or perhaps customised will be necessary in this case?

Good to see some lively discussion, but let's keep it a clean fight! 

Regards

Bump: I should have made it more clear from the start: I am trying to mimic a near-shore, or at least quite shallow area with really, really clear water. Not sure if that makes a difference.


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## Chalcosoma (Jun 16, 2013)

The more I look at Kessil on tanks, the more I think it gives a really nice spotlight effect - perfect for a moody Amazon or West African biotope with shafts of sun coming down through a forest canopy.

But it may not be enough for a brilliantly lit biotope like Lac Fwa. I think it would be great to use some in combination with something else.


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## dcutl002 (Apr 8, 2014)

My two Kessil A360WEs grow DHG nicely on my 55 gallon tank. If you get the spectral controller you can automatically adjust intensity and color temperature (6000K-9000K). They are good lights.


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> you do know as it stands this statement is garbage???
> 
> I think I understand what you are trying to imply.. BUT as the above statement stands.. SHOW me one thing that states "red light doesn't penetrate water". One.
> 
> sure none after 10 feet.. 3 meters..


What are you quoting here mate?

K(PAR) at 650nm or above will be almost zero at anything below a meter even in pristine clear water as the spectral absorption coefficient of PURE water is 0.35m-1. So yeah, in pure water there will be no red before you get 3 meters in depth. In natural systems, try 1, may be 2. Then add your 'sunset' bollocks and the sun's declination and you have nothing even at inches.

All of which is shown here










with the mathematics here http://haltrin.freeshell.org/book_chapters/Haltrin_Ch_10.pdf

Bump:


dcutl002 said:


> My two Kessil A360WEs grow DHG nicely on my 55 gallon tank. If you get the spectral controller you can automatically adjust intensity and color temperature (6000K-9000K). They are good lights.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed, I have 3 with the spectral controller. Very happy with them.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Okedokey said:


> You're not emulating anything. The red light doesn't make it into the water. The kesssils change the colour and brightness very well, remember, its the human eye afterall, the plants couldn't care less. my lights turn off at 11pm and at 10:30 every night they begin to close up as the frequency and intensity ramps down.


you seemed to have forgotten (multiple times) the qualifier PAST 3 feet.. 

We have to agree to disagree on the fact that Kessils are quite limited in color spectrum.. Apparently it is a matter of opinion. But back to red red light which penetrates water quite well in a foot=ish w/ a lot in the 2-foot range. I've never disputed red attenuation..

and whether you like it or not.. a Kessil certainly can't do this. Like it or not.. it is part of the range of natural sunlight...(3500k , 6500k 660nm red)

























Gravel is part red granite, part white quartz. 
Or even this:










Yes all a matter of personal taste and vision..

Or, if for whatever reason.. you wanted this..










all from the same cheap-ish fixture..

Just don't try to tell me Kessil has a "range" of color..They "barely" have a range of natural colors..


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

There is nothing natural looking about that tank whatsoever. It looks like you have a red light over a fake environment, then green, then blue. So what.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

I never said "you" had to like it.. like I don't have to like Kessils..
They still have no range.. 

http://www.daluaaustralia.com.au/Ou...OBSA/tabid/88/mode/details/pid/5/Default.aspx



> 64 X 3 watt Cree LED's
> 
> Warm white, cool white, UV and violet LED's
> 
> ...


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## Chalcosoma (Jun 16, 2013)

OK, now someone has suggested Orpheks as better than either. Let's throw that one in there. Also looking into Maxspect Razors.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Chalcosoma said:


> OK, now someone has suggested Orpheks as better than either. Let's throw that one in there. Also looking into Maxspect Razors.


Well, not that it matters I have nothing really against it on the surface.. though sometimes I do wonder WHAT they base their LED spectrum choices on.. 
CH4 has a 4360CCT..


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