# Another deep sand bed thread



## dasit88 (Mar 13, 2015)

Some of you have warned me that my deep sand bed will create anaerobic pockets and hydrogen sulfide gas.

I have 2-5" of substrate in my tank. It is very deep and hilly. It is pure substrate with no supports.

After doing my research, half of you say it will go bad, and I need deep root feeders in the hills. The other half of you say it will be fine as long as nothing disturbs it.

There's absolutely no way I am tearing this scape down and redoing it, especially with my plants that are well established.

What should I do?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I would suggest some Malaysian trumpet snails. From what I have read, they burrow through the substraight much like worms in dirt. Should give you the aeration that you need.
Also, nice looking scape!


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## dasit88 (Mar 13, 2015)

Immortal1 said:


> I would suggest some Malaysian trumpet snails. From what I have read, they burrow through the substraight much like worms in dirt. Should give you the aeration that you need.
> Also, nice looking scape!


Thanks, I really took my time on it, and I would hate to tear the hills down.

I think it will be okay. Many aquascapes have substrate pushed really high in places.


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## 10planted (Oct 4, 2014)

MTS dont burrow that deep. Really only half an inch or so.


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## keymastr (May 25, 2015)

I have two tanks with only sand substrate and I carefully poked a chopstick around after a few weeks to get the trapped gas out. After that I had a snail outbreak from a new plant and put an assassin snail in there and have not had a buildup since. 

I really think it is mostly when a tank is new that it occurs anyway.


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## dasit88 (Mar 13, 2015)

Take a look at this scape. The substrate is atleast 5" high. Looks great.

http://i.imgur.com/pzSiXjq.jpg


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## Aqua Hero (May 8, 2015)

dasit88 said:


> Some of you have warned me that my deep sand bed will create anaerobic pockets and hydrogen sulfide gas.
> 
> I have 2-5" of substrate in my tank. It is very deep and hilly. It is pure substrate with no supports.
> 
> ...


i am currently using a deep sand bed in my tank. when i was looking for information people were attacking it like it was black bread algae. the thing is that it can work but you must do everything correct. there are alot of myths that people have made about the DSB which arent completely true.

for a deep sand bed to work you need:
MTS - they stir the sand which expands the aerobic layer, break down mulm to a size that bacteria can process

Live Californian Blackworms - they do everything the MTS do but better, they eat mulm and bacteria in the subtrate and help make tunnels to expand the aerobic layer and push down the anaerobic layer.

Plants (Vital) - plants use the metals such as iron that is produced by the bacteria, the roots provide oxygen to the anaerobic layers. aerobic bacteria live on the plants roots and ozidize the methane to C02 and hydrogen sulfate to a harmless solution. with out the plants the DSB wont work properly and can cause problems

Assassin snails - do what the MTS and also control snail population to help keep a balance.

i have plants, assassin snails and MTS in my sand bed and they all do an awesome job. i had blackworms but my betta eat them.

Things you MUST NOT DO:

you must not vacuum the sand bed - the mulm is what fuels the bacteria in the sand bed. also if you do deep vacuuming you will disturb the aerobic and anaerobic layers too much, kill a ton of bacteria and release gasses that will turn you tank into an apocalypse 

DO NOT us cories, loaches etc to steer the sand - snails disturb the sand just enough so that there arent any issues. however, bottom dwellers disturb it too much and will cause more damage then good

DO NOT up root the plants, EVER - unless you want to release hell on your aquarium i advice you leave the plants alone. that means no rearranging. if a plant is dying then cut it off and leave the roots in the sand to decompose.

P.S make sure the sand isnt to fine but isnt to big (grain sizes). pool sand seems to be the best. also it must be 4 inches min and 5 inches max

im only scrapping the surface with this because there is ALOT to know. if you have any questions i will be happy to answer them


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## Dead2fall (Jun 4, 2014)

I do all that stuff with 2-4" deep sand and I've never had an issue.


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## Aqua Hero (May 8, 2015)

Dead2fall said:


> I do all that stuff with 2-4" deep sand and I've never had an issue.


thats not a deep sand bed then. the deep sand bed method is used my most saltwater tank people to reduce nitrates from the water. just because its a few inches deep doesnt mean anything will happen. there are some variables you need to consider


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## Italionstallion888 (Jun 29, 2013)

I had a deep sand bed in my 8.7g bow front. First time using sand in a tank. I had atleast a 5 inch bed at the back of the tank, with dirt under the sand. It ran great for a month. Then one day I nudged the tank while walking by it. I kid you not, I had a volcano type eruption happen. The bottom of the tank just boom, dirt, sand launching upwards and a horrible smell. The betta in the tank actually jumped out. He went into another tank for temp. I learned my lesson that day. I have one tank with a deep sand bed, no dirt though. From time to time I will use a bamboo skewer and poke some holes prior to a water change. I will get some gas bubbles released and go about my day.


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## dasit88 (Mar 13, 2015)

Aqua Hero said:


> dasit88 said:
> 
> 
> > Some of you have warned me that my deep sand bed will create anaerobic pockets and hydrogen sulfide gas.
> ...


Thanks for the info, it was really useful. The only problem is I want this tank to be an aquascape, and having a bunch of snails makes it ugly, and they can become a serious nuisance after a while.

I am going to have the entire tank carpeted in HC. Its roots are over 2 inches long already. Will this help?


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## kquinn03 (Feb 7, 2012)

I had a 5 - 6" sand bed in a 225 gallon tank for 1.5 years. Really fine white sand. It was beautiful for a couple months but then it was to hard to clean and always showed off the fish poop. So I cleaned it out and put in river gravel for a fish only tank. When I cleaned it out I did get a few small gas bubbles but also I found the sand was full of worms. Like the kind you find in the back yard. The fish loved them. They ate all of them, but I think they kept the sand stired up enough to keep the gas down.


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## hortus (May 10, 2006)

I think you're doing OK, and the advise from Aqua Hero is pretty good. I have sometimes even collected wild bottom dwellers to introduce into deep beds in natural aquariums, but some also came in with plants I collected. Bacteria in the anaerobic layer can help remove nitrate by converting it into nitrogen gas-so some bubbles aren't a bad thing. But plant roots will do a lot to help aerate and absorb nutrients.


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## cowman345 (Oct 30, 2005)

I think you'll be fine... I wouldn't even quite consider your setup to be a DSB, as it's only deep in a couple spots. If I were in your shoes, I definitely wouldn't change anything, except maybe add snails and worms, as AquaHero suggested, because they seem like a great idea anyway. 

My only experience is a 75g with 4" EcoComplete substrate sitting on top of egg crate with screen on top to make a half-inch gap underneath the substrate. Never had an issue. Ran the tank for a couple years on a high-light/CO2/fertilized regimen.


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## mcarroll (Apr 14, 2008)

Aqua Hero said:


> thats not a deep sand bed then. the deep sand bed method is used my most saltwater tank people to reduce nitrates from the water. just because its a few inches deep doesnt mean anything will happen. there are some variables you need to consider


I wouldn't change your advice, but for a minor detail....most people with saltwater do NOT use a DSB in saltwater....it's a great concept - and obviously it works - but seems to be considered too fragile for most people's tanks. (Not saying it is...but that seems the perception.)

While most people with saltwater do have some kind of sand, a good percentage have none at all. Those that do have some tend to keep it under 2"...mostly under 1"...purely to keep it low/no-maintenance.

Folks rely pretty universally on so-called "live rock" for denitrification, which acts as an extremely porous media. There are many artificial ceramic media that seek to duplicate this porosity, but I haven't tested any of them.

Lotsa words for a minor detail.  Great to see some folks trying this in freshwater - something I've wondered about!!


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## thermoanaero (Feb 19, 2013)

Well, finally something i am actually an expert on. I'm a microbiologist, and in my lab we actually make aquarium set ups with the intent of setting up a sediment cycling system that creates lots of sulfide (I study the bacteria that cycle the sulfur). Our setups have about 4-6 inches of fine sediment, however in order to produce sulfide in decent amounts we actually have to add a lot of sulfate, which is typically at fairly low levels in freshwater systems. So i think you should be fine. Also, one thing that has always surprised me is how many organisms (snails, the small freshwater shrimps called scuds, various burrowing worms) survive in our aquariums - we use anaerobic sediment we get from lakes and they come along as hitchhikers. Also, even when the sediment is actually visibly bubbling sulfide the O2 levels we measure in the water above the sediment is pretty normal, which is confirmed by the snails, scuds etc. that happily live in the system on the months/years time scale.

I should post a pic of the aquariums-we get very pretty layers of purple and lime green from the bacteria that eat the sulfide. They are, however, the opposite of what we would want our home aquariums to look like - the water is like pea soup, and visibility is only 1-2" - we also have them lit up 8 hrs a day, so between the sulfide and light the primary production is pretty amazing.


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## Mariostg (Sep 6, 2014)

thermoanaero said:


> Well, finally something i am actually an expert on. I'm a microbiologist, and in my lab we actually make aquarium set ups with the intent of setting up a sediment cycling system that creates lots of sulfide (I study the bacteria that cycle the sulfur). Our setups have about 4-6 inches of fine sediment, however in order to produce sulfide in decent amounts we actually have to add a lot of sulfate, which is typically at fairly low levels in freshwater systems. So i think you should be fine. Also, one thing that has always surprised me is how many organisms (snails, the small freshwater shrimps called scuds, various burrowing worms) survive in our aquariums - we use anaerobic sediment we get from lakes and they come along as hitchhikers. Also, even when the sediment is actually visibly bubbling sulfide the O2 levels we measure in the water above the sediment is pretty normal, which is confirmed by the snails, scuds etc. that happily live in the system on the months/years time scale.
> 
> I should post a pic of the aquariums-we get very pretty layers of purple and lime green from the bacteria that eat the sulfide. They are, however, the opposite of what we would want our home aquariums to look like - the water is like pea soup, and visibility is only 1-2" - we also have them lit up 8 hrs a day, so between the sulfide and light the primary production is pretty amazing.


+1. Would be interesting to see pictures. You should start a thread on this. I wish I could find some advanced stuff to read on topics like that.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

Subscribed:

Very interesting stuff. The only time I've had major disasters in my aquarium, green water, dead fish etc... was when I decided to clean the entire gravel bed. I then decided never to do more than one third of the bed at a time if, really necessary. So far, no reoccurring disasters. This thread reconfirms my habit of *only* hovering the gravel vac over the gravel during cleaning is a good idea.

Thanks for this thread.


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## angelcraze (Aug 20, 2013)

Very interesting thread. I've subscribed to this thread a while ago. I've been trying to learn more in depth about anaerobic bacteria and how exactly to cycle it for a while now. I've been noticing some problems lately in my 90g with some 8" drit beds (not sand), and am trying to release the anaerobic bacteria by poking it with a skewer prior to a w/c. There is def. some anaerobic bacteria accumulating. Puffs of bubbles and dirt everywhere. I know some people say don't disturb it, but I will explain my observations. 

I was reading an article, and thermoanaero touched on it, but the article was explaining how excessive syphoning in the modern aquarium removes important microorganisms as well. So, I just hover and suck up the stirred up debris now (after poking the substrate). The article didn't really say anything about removing the anaerobic bacteria, but I think you should poke it, because there's no way an assassin snails gonna borrow 8 inches deep (I have lots in there). 

All I had to do was look on the very bottom of my tank (held by a metal stand) with a flashlight to see I had some BAAAADD stuff accumulating in pockets. Once I started poking the substrate a bit, I saw more roots along the bottom. 

I think that dirt/sand gets so compacted, that not even plant roots can dig down. I am no microbiologist, (sounds like an awesome job btw) but I think it's very important to make sure the roots of your plants can penetrate the dirt and retract nutrient by making sure the soil is well aerated since I don't think we have figured out a safe way to cycle anaerobic bacteria in our home aquariums yet. 

If there is something I said wrong, please correct, or if someone does not agree, I will not feel offended, I am only learning, and kinda guessing by observation.

The very bottom of my tank looks cleaner now, after a few pokings with the skewer stick, I don't see many pockets of mould? and gasses, but the BBA issue is still there. I get small amounts of cyano still as well sometimes. (not on the substrate actually at all though, just plants) I wonder if there is a reason for this?...........a way to combat cyano? Outcompeting bacteria?

There is one more thing I want to ask about before I forget, to the pros, microbiologists, whoever knows:

Would removing the biological media form my Eheim 2217 canister filter help maybe? There is so much nitrifying bacteria on my soil, I was thinking of just replacing the bio media with mechanical (sponges), I was thinking maybe? it would help with BBA and other undesirable bacterias? I have a feeling my nitrates would be present again, and it would help with the cyano at least, but that's not what we are talking about, so does anyone think it would benefit anything?


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## Mariostg (Sep 6, 2014)

angelcraze said:


> All I had to do was look on the very bottom of my tank (held by a metal stand) with a flashlight to see I had some BAAAADD stuff accumulating in pockets. Once I started poking the substrate a bit, I saw more roots along the bottom.
> 
> I think that dirt/sand gets so compacted, that not even plant roots can dig down. I am no microbiologist, (sounds like an awesome job btw) but I think it's very important to make sure the roots of your plants can penetrate the dirt and retract nutrient by making sure the soil is well aerated since I don't think we have figured out a safe way to cycle anaerobic bacteria in our home aquariums yet.
> 
> Would removing the biological media form my Eheim 2217 canister filter help maybe? There is so much nitrifying bacteria on my soil, I was thinking of just replacing the bio media with mechanical (sponges), I was thinking maybe? it would help with BBA and other undesirable bacterias? I have a feeling my nitrates would be present again, and it would help with the cyano at least, but that's not what we are talking about, so does anyone think it would benefit anything?


By any chance, you did not picture of the "underworld" of your tank to share I suppose?

Out of curiosity, do you have any strong rooting plants in the tank in question?

To some extent, sponges will act as a biomedia. Probably not as much but still. But I don't know what effect that would have anyway.  Just thinking out loud here.


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