# Why am I not building my own Kessel Tuna Sun or similiar



## klibs (May 1, 2014)

game changer


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

just order the COB Led from Yuji and the misc. parts.

will have to post a progress thread when I get everything.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Yugi seems very expensive.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

should be able to build the entire unit for about $100.00


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

So, got to doing some research and exploring....a couple notes on the interwebs say if you drive these LEDs with a voltage reguilator as described you will drasticly shorten their lives. They like a constant current driver.

That got me searching for dimmable LED drivers and of course Mean Well has a ton.
I ordered one of these.
HLG-120H-36A: MEAN WELL: Power Supplies & Wall Adapters

Now that does A LOT of things!
1. Much less build/solder.
2. Much cleaner design, the LED mounted to the cooler is the only thing hanging over the tank.
3. The PS can be remotely located ANYWHERE.
4. All that's needed is 12v DC to the computer fan. I can wrap the wire around the PS cord and run it to the cooler.

I have the LED, the PS should be here in a couple days. When it gets here should be a 5 minute wire up!

Stay tuned!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ichy said:


> So, got to doing some research and exploring....a couple notes on the interwebs say if you drive these LEDs with a voltage reguilator as described you will drasticly shorten their lives. They like a constant current driver.
> 
> That got me searching for dimmable LED drivers and of course Mean Well has a ton.
> I ordered one of these.
> ...


your drive current is a bit high for that chip...Better plan on 2 things:
REALLY good cooling and/or running it not at 100% on.

A LDD-LW @ 1500mAand separate power supply would have been my preferred choice.. 

Other would be LDD-hw's @1000mA 
Of course both use 5V PWM for dimming..not the same as your choice either

I realize "all in one" have advantages but I do prefer those little puck drivers


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> your drive current is a bit high for that chip...Better plan on 2 things:
> REALLY good cooling and/or running it not at 100% on.
> 
> A LDD-LW @ 1500mAand separate power supply would have been my preferred choice..
> ...


Yep, the LED will be attached to a computer heat sink/fan like in the youtube video.

That driver allows for resistive dimming, so I'll put a POT in and run it at less voltage on the DC side.

I didn't want to get into the PWM because that unit uses a 10V PWM and that would really mess up the simplicity.

Keep talking though, we may get one of these working! Appreciate all the thoughts and help I can get!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ichy said:


> That driver allows for resistive dimming, so I'll put a POT in and run it at less voltage on the DC side.
> 
> I didn't want to get into the PWM because that unit uses a 10V PWM and that would really mess up the simplicity.


Actually the "output" is still (more than likely) PWM only the control circuit is resistive.. 

Looked at that chips data sheet and for some odd reason it states max current is 10000mA (10A)..  Seems just wrong..


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

ya it says 3 in 1 dimming; resistive, PWM and voltage, so not sure how that works, but you are probably right. There is an output cable that you can use to dim, but its still 10v PWM which sounds like a big hassle to deal with!

BUT a bigger problem, the part is on 6 week back order, SO I'd like to source a new dimmable, power supply.

You are correct I looked at the data sheet again...it says 10 AMPS!!! Geez I think my clothes dryer uses less amps! LOL....


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

PDF data sheet that opens is for a 100watt.
Still seems high to me.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Does it matter? I'm never going to drive it anywhere near 10A.

Jeff,
I know you have posted some of these drivers before, but do you have one with a 30V output?
Thanks in advance.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Meanwell LDD1500LW can provide 30volts @ 1500mA.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

*Specs fit*

Asking too much to drive this chip? Sure would decrease the cost?

3pcs DC 7 35V to 1 25 30V Constant Current LED Driver Power Supply - Newegg.com


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ichy said:


> Asking too much to drive this chip? Sure would decrease the cost?
> 
> 3pcs DC 7 35V to 1 25 30V Constant Current LED Driver Power Supply - Newegg.com


That is equiv to an LDD "puck" w/out dimming except by manual ma decreasing..

you still need a PS.


A Typhon for PWM programming is about $50.. and it is a recommended add on regardless..


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Yep, on the PS. Was thinking bringing 12V up to it for power so I could run the cooling fan as well but then not sure I would get the Amps I need I=V/R...

I think I'm going to get a unit similar to the Mean Well I was looking at off Ebay.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ichy said:


> Yep, on the PS. Was thinking bringing 12V up to it for power so I could run the cooling fan as well but then not sure I would get the Amps I need I=V/R...



doesn't work that way, you need the V(f) voltage threshold to be reached..


> Forward Voltage: 28.8 - 31.2 V


Lees than 28.8V and the chip won't "fire". more than 31.2V and no current control and it will fry..

constant current drivers "ramp" the voltage till the amp "Set point" is reached..


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Sorry for all the questions, and I appreciate all the help and schooling...but as you can tell, I'm not familiar with those little buggers.
So your saying I have to have a PS at least equal to the forward voltage of the LED?

OOPs sorry was typing as you responded!! Got it!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ichy said:


> Sorry for all the questions, and I appreciate all the help and schooling...but as you can tell, I'm not familiar with those little buggers.
> So your saying I have to have a PS at least equal to the forward voltage of the LED?
> 
> OOPs sorry was typing as you responded!! Got it!


MANUAL dimming driver/ps all in one..

free bay number
251750400015

you will need a separate ps for the fans..

As an alternative if you get say a 36V PS and an separate driver .. like the LDD series you can also get a cheap voltage adj. board to run the fans..
Just parallel the driver and the board
161476280982

Drop the 36 to 12v..


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Hey we are on the same page! I have that fleaBay driver in my watch list. And I have a step down voltage board!
One last question and I'm going to pull the trigger.


*********************************************edit*************************
50W vs 100W.
the 50W puts out 1.5A which is half the Max current for that chip so I can never drive it at full brightness. Might not ever need it at full brightness but....the 100w version of that PS outputs 3A which is the max. So I could have the potential to drive it as bright as it can go.
Thoughts
***************************************************************************

I just doubled checked. The general description says Rated current: 1500 mA!
But the data sheet has a column that says "Condition" and gives all the values at 3000mA...confusing!
I'm just going to go with the 1.5A PS.


I think we have a doable PS solution so now if I can find some time this week will start mounting the COB onto a heat sink. I'm thinking of simple aluminum L channel formed into a square to mount the computer heat sink to.

Then thinking of putting a strip of 12v RGB led around it to give color/moonlights., I'll have 12v up there for the fans so why not??


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## lovingHDTV (Oct 15, 2008)

Would this driver work? I'm new to LED drivers as well, but it looks like it will work.

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/260/LDD-L-spec-271480.pdf

Supports both PWM and 0-10V dimming. The 1500L only goes to 30V, that is what I'm not sure about.

david


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

lovingHDTV said:


> Would this driver work? I'm new to LED drivers as well, but it looks like it will work.
> 
> http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/260/LDD-L-spec-271480.pdf
> 
> ...


no it doesn't use 10V dimming for one thing (.5 to 2.5V).. and max voltage is 32V also

Keep in mind analog dimming doesn't go to zero either in most cases.

One reason I don't recommend "voltage controlled" dimming..

The smaller LDD's also are not able to use < 3.5V Pulses sooo things like the bluefish will not work w/ them.
Just an FYI..

Also note that any PS hooked to them should be at least 3V larger than the output max.. i.e Max output is 32V PS should be 35V


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## lovingHDTV (Oct 15, 2008)

The ones 1000mA and less go to 32V, but if you scroll down to the 1500mA (LDD_L) one it says 30V.

I don't want analog, got confused with a different driver I saw.

I can't fine the I-Vf curves for the 50W device only 100W. 30V may not be high enough.

david



jeffkrol said:


> no it doesn't use 10V dimming for one thing (.5 to 2.5V).. and max voltage is 32V also
> 
> Keep in mind analog dimming doesn't go to zero either in most cases.
> 
> One reason I don't recommend "voltage controlled" dimming..


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Yes that one and a bunch of drivers will work. I'm looking for the cheapest that meets the specs and does resistive dimming.

10V PWM requires a dedicated circuit to get the right voltage, PWM requires a controller of some sort.

Resistance only requires a POT wired in. The simplest, but of course the worst in terms of electronics...resistance produces heat and is wasteful because the extra energy has to go somewhere....but in this case we don't care.

So we decided on this one....its on order and coming on a slow boat from China.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

lovingHDTV said:


> The ones 1000mA and less go to 32V, but if you scroll down to the 1500mA (LDD_L) one it says 30V.


ah note 4.. 
Odd it will take 36v and only steps down 3v yet 30 volt out max.
Actually probably good enough for those chips.. @ 1000mA at least.


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## lovingHDTV (Oct 15, 2008)

So the angle of emission is 120 degrees. Did you find a nice lens for it? Seems that is pretty wide for an aquarium.

This is a pretty neat LED if everything comes together.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

lovingHDTV said:


> So the angle of emission is 120 degrees. Did you find a nice lens for it? Seems that is pretty wide for an aquarium.
> 
> This is a pretty neat LED if everything comes together.



I'm going to hang it, so going to try it without a lens at first. I think 120 will be OK, but will have to see.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ichy said:


> I'm going to hang it, so going to try it without a lens at first. I think 120 will be OK, but will have to see.


At 4" it is about a 14" cone of light..
At 1 foot it is 41.5 inches


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## lovingHDTV (Oct 15, 2008)

Would something like this work? Fleabay# 231587986758

Nice handy package.

david


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> At 4" it is about a 14" cone of light..
> At 1 foot it is 41.5 inches


If this works out I'm thinking of hanging two over a 50gallon tank. It is 38" long by 20 wide. 

So maybe 5 or 6 inches above the tank? The coverage is a squared function if I remember right??

A lens if needed is pretty simple to add later. But when I design the housing, might have to take it into account up front for mounting purposes.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ichy said:


> If this works out I'm thinking of hanging two over a 50gallon tank. It is 38" long by 20 wide.
> 
> So maybe 5 or 6 inches above the tank? The coverage is a squared function if I remember right??
> 
> A lens if needed is pretty simple to add later. But when I design the housing, might have to take it into account up front for mounting purposes.


Tangent function
tan 1/2 the angle.. 
Tan of 60 degrees is 1.73

That number times your height gives you the radius of your light circle

Note that w/ most optics the outer edges are much lower in intensity

so 120 degrees may be mostly "effectively" 90 degrees useable w/ some in the rest


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> Tangent function
> tan 1/2 the angle..
> Tan of 60 degrees is 1.73
> 
> ...


Ahh thank you! Now that you say that...I was thinking Lumens,,,which I think is an inverse square of the distance???

Dang, dude you are wealth of knowledge....

I'm off to the computer store to look at CPU heat sinks.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Spent more than I wanted to on a heat sink, could have gotten by with a $10 one, but I like this one a lot better. No drilling/tapping etc. Just a hardware store run for M4 bolts long enough to reach. Here it is dry fitted. Next step is to make an L channel square of aluminum to mount the heat sink rails to. Then wire it up.


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## lovingHDTV (Oct 15, 2008)

Nice!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ichy said:


> Ahh thank you! Now that you say that...I was thinking Lumens,,,which I think is an inverse square of the distance???
> 
> Dang, dude you are wealth of knowledge....
> 
> I'm off to the computer store to look at CPU heat sinks.


your thinking about the inverse square rule.. holds for PAR/lumens ect BUT in the range of our tank distances and multiple point light sources it is not really very valid..


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

A little progress, put side rails on to tie the two mounting brackets together and make everything solid and square. Ran 12v up for the fan and RGB led's if I add them.

So far this has been pretty easy and straightforward and the build is looking neat and compact.
I still have no idea how I'm going to mount this over a tank.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Go the mounting figured out! Here is the tank mount...works great I like it! Very sturdy!! I printed in orange just as a test run, the actual will be black. Full adjustable from the front to back of tank and up and down and left right the length of the aquarium!

The last part I have to CAD is the actual mount for the light itself. It will slide on the aluminum rod. I have an idea of what it will look like. I'll tackle that next!


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

*of course....after I CAD up 8020*

I find this...half the size and black anodized. Price is good to!

10mm Profile, black


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## saiko (Mar 30, 2007)

Interesting build, I'd have loved some orange screws instead of metal.

BTW, the orange contraption which does the "up and down", wont it slide down with weight?


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

*fired it up*

sorry not the best pictures, I will hold it over a tank tonight but...

PS came in last night...I wired it up and fired it off! Crap...its blinding!

Couple things..the POT in it SUCKS!!! its 23 turns and only the last little bit does any dimming.
The cooler works perfectly, no heat build up on the metal backing at all.

AND not a fault of the POT, but I didn't think this through... the COB needs a higher voltage to fire than actually run. So if you have it dimmed to low, it will not fire back up at the dimmer settings.

AND as only I can do..my finger hit a fan blade and it snapped off..man those blades are flimsy!!! But the mounting bracket I'm making will protect the fan.

On the positive side, the brightness and color are outstanding. I will hold it over a tank tonight and take pictures. I have the mounting system worked out, which I;m liking a lot, so maybe by the end of the week I will have it all finished and mounted over a tank.

The first picture is 30" off the floor.
The second picture is dimmed down to nearly off....doesn't really mean/show much....just a pict of it!


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

saiko said:


> Interesting build, I'd have loved some orange screws instead of metal.
> 
> BTW, the orange contraption which does the "up and down", wont it slide down with weight?


Sorry missed the question, no, the friction fit is such that it will not slide unless you really want it to!

The final print job will be in black, I had orange in the printer at the time. So SS screws with the black plastic and black anodized T-slot will look good. 

ALSO, I'm switching out the 1" profile for 10mm black anodized stuff. It will look much better without all the bulk.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ichy said:


> AND not a fault of the POT, but I didn't think this through... the COB needs a higher voltage to fire than actually run. So if you have it dimmed to low, it will not fire back up at the dimmer !


That sucks.. Some of those Chinese drivers are really weird.. 
TRUE PWM output (regardless of control circuit protocol) doesn't have that problem.. it is just full voltage at different on/off periods..
sounds like the driver is actually limiting voltage as it dims..That does change the spectrum slightly.
and yes LED diodes change electrical characteristics based on chip temp..


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> That sucks.. Some of those Chinese drivers are really weird..
> TRUE PWM output (regardless of control circuit protocol) doesn't have that problem.. it is just full voltage at different on/off periods..
> sounds like the driver is actually limiting voltage as it dims..That does change the spectrum slightly.
> and yes LED diodes change electrical characteristics based on chip temp..


Yep, it has to be, because as you say, true PWM is just a function of duty cycle, not voltage! Dang it! BUT not a real deal breaker, if this just blows me away visual on a tank I can live with it!

Might have to explore the 10V PWM route or maybe try a better MeanWell PS?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

I was looking at the spec sheet but it is for the 100W COB  and at 30V and 3000mA drivers are not easy to find..
I actually wrote to Yuji today w/ a few questions. One is to recommended driver for the 50W since I can't tell (I suppose going 1500mA would do.. )

Anyways I'll let you know what they say..


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

I could never find anything other than the 100w sheet either.

There seems to be a bunch of new Meanwell drivers coming out..I called around on a bunch of them and got the same results, "We don't have them yet, they are 6 weeks out." 

But just so we are on the same page,
you know I have the 50W COB and that power supply is 1500mA right?

Will be very interested to see what they say.

The Long Suffering is not home to help take pictures, so I gotta what until later tonight.

Jeff if you are interested in building one of these PM me.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Well, couldn't wait so I just held it over the tank..the color was VERY nice! I put my regular stingray and razor back on....wow they look yellow now!
Plant pearling picked up in just the short time I held it!

It was bright, but the beam is narrow, I had it about 6 inches over the water to really light it up all the way to the substrate and I would need two for a 20L. I'm really going to withhold judgment on this until I finish the mounting system so I can really stand back and evaluate it.

I don't think I'm going to put Kessel out of business anytime soon! LOL..


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## saiko (Mar 30, 2007)

Thanks for the reply.



ichy said:


> Couple things..the POT in it SUCKS!!! its 23 turns and only the last little bit does any dimming.
> The cooler works perfectly, no heat build up on the metal backing at all.
> 
> AND not a fault of the POT, but I didn't think this through... the COB needs a higher voltage to fire than actually run. So if you have it dimmed to low, it will not fire back up at the dimmer settings.


So here, what I understand is, you are using/sold a pot with higher resistance. So what is the resistance of the pot ?
Which means, you can actually use a 20 times smaller valued potentiometer. It should work smoothly then.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

saiko said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> 
> So here, what I understand is, you are using/sold a pot with higher resistance. So what is the resistance of the pot ?
> Which means, you can actually use a 20 times smaller valued potentiometer. It should work smoothly then.


pot came w/ the driver as a unit I believe..

I found larger chips can have "dimming issues" as well


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

As promised .. from Yuji:



> Apologies, the 50W spec sheet is not yet available. The forward voltages are
> the same, but with max and rated current at half of the 100W.
> 
> We rate the 50W at 1.5A constant current, max 5A.
> ...


then he gave me a non-accessible link 

but it was for the 40w chip. Would work w/ the 50 at lower current..

http://www.meanwell.com/mw_search/HLG-40H/HLG-40H-spec.pdf

it does have the choice of 3 dimming protocols though...Make sure it is the "B" option driver..


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

The POT is a 10K pot. It's not the POT its the forward voltage of the COB to fire that causes the problem. As Jeff says, probably inherent to these high powered COBs.

Jeff, I called a company two weeks ago and the Meanwell driver was the exact driver they recommended but it was not available for 6 weeks. I found it on Jameco and they led me to believe it was in stock, but got an email 3 days later saying, "won't ship for 4-6 weeks" and they cancelled my order at my request.

Sorry I have not posted pictures yet...I've been busy with work, left the unit at work to day,,,so I'll get them posted ASAP.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ichy said:


> The POT is a 10K pot. It's not the POT its the forward voltage of the COB to fire that causes the problem. As Jeff says, probably inherent to these high powered COBs.
> 
> Jeff, I called a company two weeks ago and the Meanwell driver was the exact driver they recommended but it was not available for 6 weeks. I found it on Jameco and they led me to believe it was in stock, but got an email 3 days later saying, "won't ship for 4-6 weeks" and they cancelled my order at my request.
> 
> Sorry I have not posted pictures yet...I've been busy with work, left the unit at work to day,,,so I'll get them posted ASAP.


Life gets a lot easier if you come over to the "dark side" and use PWM and a controller.. 

Storm LED Controller | CORALUX
Typhon / Typhoon LED Controller - Steve's LEDs, discount DIY LED supplies


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## saiko (Mar 30, 2007)

agree, a PM to O2surplus and may be he will have something lying around him to suit your need.

...however, how about an update?


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

saiko said:


> agree, a PM to O2surplus and may be he will have something lying around him to suit your need.
> 
> ...however, how about an update?



sorry about no update! Been chasing pheasants across the prairie! 

Update:
I'm working on the mounting system. I was going to use 8020 but it is so bulky. I found MicroRax and will use that! Its a really neat 10mm extruded T slot bar.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

*Pictures*

Finally got a chance to put it over a tank and take picts.

Man that sucker throws some NICE light.

Bump:


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Here it is compared to a Finnex Planted +. The Planted + is the bottom picture.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

*complete prototype is done!*

Well, here it is! Ready to go over a tank. Still somethings I would change but its fully operational and can be mounted over a tank.
If the rim thickness on a 30 gallon is the same as a 20 I'll throw it over an empty tank tonight and take pictures.:nerd:

The picture with the arm is with the light 18" above the desktop and about 50% brightness.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Here it is over a 30 gallon tank.
I can't really show the difference in brightness because the iPad adjusts the exposure. But this sucker puts out a lot of nice light! Worse case, I'll put it over my orchids, but I really want to see this over my 50 gallon tank I'm setting up this winter.
The mounting systems works well. The 30 gallon rim is a little thicker so the extrusion bars splayed out a little but I can adjust that.


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## bt7896 (Oct 5, 2014)

Very interesting project. I ordered my own toys to give this a test myself. While I was ordering the LED I noticed they make a Ribbon version of this light. Here Also the same dude who made the "Sun Blaster video" made a video on how to build an LED light pannel. Here It seems to me, unless you have a cube shaped tank, building an elongated LED panel using the yuji ribbon lights should be a better way to go. Although I have no idea how many rows of this ribbon you would need to accomplish a acceptable level of lighting. Any thoughts?


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