# 40 breeder tank renovation-(new pics 05/01/12, pg 5)



## KookScape (Oct 31, 2011)

Looks great! Can't wait to see it when it fills out!


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

*If at first you don't succeed...*


Step 1: Mourn over a total plant failure:

Commercially grown plants suck.

The Glosso was grown on a matt of coconut fiber and the roots were so intertwined that there was no way to dislodge it from the mat without nearly destroying the plant. We pried some off and planted it and the rest we planted mat-n-all. Big mistake. Everything planted in the mat died and now there are annoying little fibers littering the tank.

We got a beautiful 12x12 matt of HC, which we planted in a variety of different ways—stem by stem, large clumps weighted down by subsrtate and small clumps. Sadly, most of it was dug up by the corys and floated. The rest melted. Grr. We still have a little bit hanging on, but I now officially hate HC!

The hairgrass was mostly dead when it arrived and it was planted in one of those terrible fiber matts. We eventually salvaged a few tiny spigs.

The Downoi from the LFS was in pretty rough shape when we brought it home and it melted into nothing in about 3 days.

Step 2: decide that the hardscape isn’t quite right.

The hill just wasn’t big enough and the substrate was succumbing to the effects of gravity. 

Step 3: Rescape for 6 hours!:


This time I got serious. I use blue painters tap to mark on the tank the Golden Ratio point and horizontal and verital thirds. Then I took a string and taped one side to the outer edge of the tank 2/3 from the top of the substrate and the other end to the golden ratio point on the bottom of the tank. I used this as a guide for building my hill.

Here’s the final product as of today.














I haven’t finished with the left side yet since my husband isn’t ready to part with his crypts just yet and I haven’t grown anything yet to prove that taking them out would be a wise choice. Anyway, we need the plant matter to soak up extra nutrients. 

I’ve ordered Christmas moss and Staurogyne Repens from the swap and shop. NO MORE COMMERCIAL PLANTS!

I’ve decided that HC is way too big of a PIA and I’m hoping that Staurogyne will make for a more successful ground cover plant.

To be continued…


----------



## neontetras4me (Sep 5, 2011)

I like it, so thats where the xmas moss went off that thread


----------



## 2in10 (Feb 8, 2011)

Very nice scape, good choice to stay away from the commercial plants. Some vendors are good but at times their stock sucks and you never know when sucking time is.


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks everyone! I'm really excited to see how this goes!

Update:

Current issues and concerns--

--I think our fish--especially the rummy noses--don't like the bright T5HO lights. When the lights are off they swim around happilly and when the lights come on they cower with all the other fish under the shade of the Hygrophilia. Hmmm. I've read that some aquascapers run lower light for most of the "daytime" cycle and higher light for only a few hours ("high noon" in tank land). That might be less stressful for the fish.

??? Have any of you tried this?

--I think 78 deg F is too warm. I've read that the amount of CO2 and O2 that can be dissolved in water is decreases significantly as the temp rises. More CO2 and O2 should be good for the fish, the plants, and the good bacteria, and bad for the algae. Most of our fish can go down to 72 without a problem, according to Veterinarian Dr. Google. The Pleco likes it above 73 and the White Clouds like it below 72. I've turned it down to 76 today and in a couple days I'll turn it down to 74. I'll see what that does to the plants and fish. 

??? What temperature do you keep you tank and why?

--the solenoid on our regulator is broken (always on) so I have to control the CO2 manually with our overly sensitive needle valve. I can't bear to send it back for repairs right now with my new plants coming in a few days... Tricky situation...

--I've been pushing my CO2 up as high as I can--light green with a hint of yellow in the drop checker--to limit algae and promote plant growth. Sometimes our fish look a bit lethargic but they don't gasp at the top. I bought some new rummy noses yesterday. I acclimated them in the typical way for 1.5 hrs before adding them. They hit the tank and almost died. They were gasping at the top and so stunned that they couldn't swim in the current created by the powerhead. I felt TERRIBLE! I turned off the CO2, lights, and power-heads and turned on the airstone and they recovered in about 2 hours. Then I was able to gradually resume normal (with a touch less CO2) tank conditions in a few more hours. Close call. I hope that the other fish aren't suffering in silence as well.

??? Has this ever happened to any of you?

I really need to get the regulator fixed! I feel really gullty when I hurt my fish.

That's the news for today

Please let me know if you have any experience with any of these issues. I'll update as my experiments progress.


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

*Suggestions please.*

It's getting pretty cold out there and so if I'm going to try to buy anymore plants online I'd better do it now or I'm SOL until spring! Any suggestions?


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Maintenance update:

Yesterday did water change and cleaned filter. Boy howdy that thing was gross! 

I'm not sure how one is supposed to clean a canister filter in order to retain the healthy bacteria. We washed the media out under the bathtub faucet--well water, no chlorine. I saved a bit of the icky brown water from the beginning of the cleaning process and poured it in at the end to reseed it with bacteria. I hope that helps. I'll be on the lookout for an algae bloom.

I'm thinking about adding some kind of fertilizer to the substrate. Probably osmocote granules. I've been reading a about nutritive substrates and they sound like a superior growing media but I'm not really willing to start from scratch right now. We'll see how this goes.

Shrimp and plants should be here in the next couple days!


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Issue du jour--

We've been getting little holes in the older leaves of our willow hygro for a little bit and tonight we noticed a few on our anubias 'nana'. Which seems indicative of a potassium deficiency. We reviewed our EI dosage and realized that we have been dosing for a a 20-40 gallon tank. Our tank is a 40 gallon and willow hygro is greedy. We calculated a dosage half-way between the listed EI dosage for 20-40 gal and 40-60 gal:

3/8 tsp KNO3 3x/wk
3/32 tsp KH2PO4 3x/wk
3/32 tsp CSM+B 3x/wk
We will also be adding 3/32 tsp K2SO4 3x/wk to supplement the potassium. 

We mix the dry ingredients with 360ml H2O for 12, 30 ml, doses. So it's not hard to do the measurements.

Hopefully, this will solve our problem. We've ordered osmocote capsules, which we will add to the substrate in a few days.

The fish seem to be doing great with the airstone, decreaeed temp (74 degrees), and the more gradual CO2 increase. 

Also, we received 20 healthy cherry shrimp in the mail yesterday. Our preexisting shrimp have yellow saddles, which hopefully means that they will berry soon. 

Still waiting on the plants and hoping they won't get too cold in transit.

That's all for now...


----------



## fusiongt (Nov 7, 2011)

Lookin' good. Sometimes a big drastic change is necessary and makes things more interesting (that's why it's such a fun hobby!)


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks Fusiongt! It really is fun to explore the many possibilities of the planted tank!


----------



## matty26 (Feb 25, 2011)

looks awesome!


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks Matty26!


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

*Making progress!*

The Staurogyne Repens and Christmas Moss arrived looking great despite the cold temperatures. Thanks Singyeah!

I've never worked with moss before. I wanted it to cover the substrate between the rocks. I ended up holding it down by tying dental floss between little stakes made out of paper clips, which I jammed into the substrate. It worked pretty darn well too. In a month or so I should be able to take the floss and the anchors out.

Something is going really well in the tank right now; the fish are acting frisky and the plants are pearling more than they ever have! Oh, and one of the cherry shrimp that we've had for about 3 weeks is carrying around a clutch of eggs. We've never had anything reproduce in our tank before (other than algae) so I'm pretty excited! Best of all, there is hardly any algaein the tank right now! WooHoo!!!

Here's the new scape:











Ttfn


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

I am going to sit back and drool over your tank for a min or two.

Ok, I am good now. That tank is amazing.roud:

For the filter cleaning, I, and I think most others, do it like this. When you do your water change, you take the filter apart and rinse it out in the tank water. You will get the gunk off, but not kill all the bacteria.roud:

Again, this tank is amazing. Subscribed.:biggrin:


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks so much Cableguy69846! I really appreciate the encouragement. Creating an aquascape is such a challenge. I'm pretty obsessed right now. I think a second tank is in my near future. 

Re: cleaning the filter--what a pia! I think I'm going to find some mesh bags to put the filter media in so it isn't such an ordeal to get things clean. I'm planning to clean the filter monthly, does that seem about right?

Thanks again,
Mary


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Oops


----------



## halffrozen (Nov 4, 2011)

Looks... fantastic!


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

ghotifish said:


> Thanks so much Cableguy69846! I really appreciate the encouragement. Creating an aquascape is such a challenge. I'm pretty obsessed right now. I think a second tank is in my near future.
> 
> Re: cleaning the filter--what a pia! I think I'm going to find some mesh bags to put the filter media in so it isn't such an ordeal to get things clean. I'm planning to clean the filter monthly, does that seem about right?
> 
> ...


No problem. Glad to help. Lol @second tank comment. MTS takes another victim.:hihi:

The filter bags is a great idea. And cleaning a filter once a month or once every month is the way to go. You only want to get the gunk off the filter media and whatever plant material gets in it. You don't have to scrub it out or anything. Just a bit of a rinse. The bags will make that much easier. Take it out, swish it around, and put it back in. Will be less of a PITA for you, and only take about 5 min to do.:icon_smil


----------



## bryfox86 (Apr 6, 2011)

thats it I need to get a 40 B thanks alot! LOl tank looks great!


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks half frozen and bryfox86!

Ah, MTS! I know the feeling! I think that I may have to get a second tank ASAP. I want to try out some different plants in my aquascape but I don't have anywhere to put the ones that I take out. I think I want get a cheap 10-20 gallon low-tech set-up as a holding tank. We are saving up for a big 150 gallon tank but we aren't going to be ready for that for several months and I've got too many plants now! I don't want to give them away just yet as I'm still trying stuff out and I might decide that I want to put them back in. One problem we have is that our house isn't all that big so I'd have to do some rearranging to fit in another tank. Wow, this hobby is complicated!

It's not easy being addicted!


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

ghotifish said:


> Thanks half frozen and bryfox86!
> 
> Ah, MTS! I know the feeling! I think that I may have to get a second tank ASAP. I want to try out some different plants in my aquascape but I don't have anywhere to put the ones that I take out. I think I want get a cheap 10-20 gallon low-tech set-up as a holding tank. We are saving up for a big 150 gallon tank but we aren't going to be ready for that for several months and I've got too many plants now! I don't want to give them away just yet as I'm still trying stuff out and I might decide that I want to put them back in. One problem we have is that our house isn't all that big so I'd have to do some rearranging to fit in another tank. Wow, this hobby is complicated!
> 
> It's not easy being addicted!


Lol. You can say that again. I am getting ready to start remodeling the basement to have a fish room.roud:

Did you end up getting enough glosso to do what you wanted? If not, PM me. I can for sure help you out.:icon_bigg


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks you sooo much cableguy69846! PM on the way! :red_mouth


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

ghotifish said:


> Thanks you soooo much cableguy69846! PM on the way!


Sounds good.


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

*Onward and upward*

It's been a busy time in tankland.

This weekend I succumbed to the power of MTS! I picked up a 20 gallon tank to house plants that don't fit into my grand aquascaping plan. It's going to be a high tech set-up once all the parts arrive in the mail. 










In the main tank I got a bunch of new plants. I'm really interested in plants with tiny leaves. I want to keep things in scale.

To that end, I picked up Downoi, H.M., and Crypt parva at the LFS. I also got some rotala macrandra and hydrocotyle verticillata from the swap-n-shop. I'm going to see how these fit in.

The most important addition was a big bag of glosso from Cableguy. It arrived in excellent condition despite the recent sub-freezing weather.

Today, I spent 4 hours planting hundreds of tiny sprigs 1-2 at a time.

Getting the sprigs ready for planting:









The results:











If the Corys dig all this up overnight, I'm going to move them into the cat's water dish!!! (just kidding, sorta)

I like the staurogyne repens a lot but I felt that the leaf structure was too big for the scale of the tank. Now I'm dreaming of a beautiful carpet of Glosso, but if that doesn't workout I'll still have the staurogyne.

I'm thinking that I'll move out the rest of the willow hygro and maybe the crypts once the little tank is running high-tech. (Or whenever my husband let's me)! He thinks that I should leave well enough alone, but that's not my style. I've got a vision!

So here's the tank today:










We are starting to get a little green spot algae and a few tufts of BBA. It started when we got our new regulator and didn't quite have the flow correct for a couple days. That's the trouble with high light tanks, you get one little alteration to the system and BANG algae time. One issue that we have is that the plants on the hill are in really high light being up so close to to the lights. I'm hoping that I'll be able to control it with careful monitoring of the CO2. If that doesn't work we may have to raise the lights.

Also, increasing the ferts took care of the spotty leaves right away. More shrimp are berried, which is cool. Some of our nerite snails have been dying and I don't know why. Probably the soft water. Oh well, some things are not meant to be. We'll see.


TTFN


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

The tank looks great.:icon_smil

Don't worry about the glosso, once it gets established, it will grow like a weed. Especially in a hi tech setup. Pretty soon you will be trimming it like crazy and selling it on the SnS.:hihi:

Do you have a plan for the 20 gallon yet? Or a plant list?


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks Cableguy! I hope that I planted the Glosso correctly.

I have no idea what I'm going to do with the little tank... So many possibilities! It would be wonderful to have a tank chalk-full of colorful plants. I think I'd like some quick-growing stems. I suspect that frequent trimming would satisfy my insatiable need to fuss! I'm planning to watch the SnS for a good deal on some stems.

I definitely need to put a piece of wood in there so that I can take the Bristlenose Pleco out of the 40 gal. I don't think he's been very happy since we removed the driftwood for the rescape. I'd like to move the Corys into the new tank as well, since all they do these days is huddle under the willow hygro. Maybe they'd like to have the run of the place. Unfortunately, I think the floramax substrate might be too sharp for their little fins. I've read differing opinions on that issue... I may just try it and see how they do.

I'm still trying to figure out what to do about cycling the little tank. From what I've been reading it seems like I should be able to seed the filter with some media from our current tank and toss some fish in. Rex Grigg's website suggests that having a substantial amount of fast growing stems and a moderate fish load should do the trick. I've really been wanting some harlequin rasboras. I just don't want to hurt any fish. 

??? Any suggestions on the best way to cycle the new tank???

I'm worried about the recent algae bloom in the big tank. It's not terrible (lots of green spot and a few tufts of bba) but I really hate algae. I still have some room to go up on the CO2. I'm really hoping that's the issue since it's the easiest thing to fix. 

I've reduced the photo period from 8 to 6 hours. I don't know if that will help. 

??? I wonder what would be better: a longer photoperiod with dimmer lights or a shorter photoperiod with brighter lights? 

I could always add a strip of window screen to reduce the light a bit... Maybe I'll add some screen over the light on the side where the hill is, that way the Glosso and staurogyne will still be under bright light. 

I may also pull out the anubias and dip them in some diluted excel. I sprayed the crypts that I moved into the little tank with 4:1 solution of excell and water and let them sit for 5 min. I can't tell if there has been any effect. The BBA looks a bit redder, so maybe it worked.

??? Any algae suggestions? I'm familiar with BBA but this green spot is new to me.

I'll update soon!


----------



## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

looks great! this makes me think i shouldve platned my glosso closer!


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

From what I see, you did the glosso perfectly. As long as the node is buried and the roots, you will be in good shape. On the lights, I prefer a longer photo period. I keep all my tank lights on 12 hours year round cuz I want to see the tanks and all that. I will just tweek CO2 or ferts.

As for cycling the tank, if you have the seeded filter media, use it. Easiest way if you have it available. You can do the plant route, but in my experience, that will take longer. And using a fish cycle, you will have to test daily and do water changes frequently to keep the fish from being harmed. That will slow down the cycle process.

For the little tank, if you are looking for stems, I have those too. Lots of them. Shoot me a PM and I will get a list together of what I have for you. You can add the plants while you are cycling the tank and they will be fine. Doing a fishless cycle will be easier on you. You can go without the water changes and just let the tank do it's thing.

And I have heard that the corys will do better in a sandy substrate. Not sharp stuff so they don't hurt their barbels as they like to root in the substrate for food. They will also do well if they have a bit of substrate free of plants for the same purpose.

You can also try raising your lights further from the tank top. That may just be the issue on that. You could also tweek the CO2, like you said, or the ferts.


----------



## BoxxerBoyDrew (Oct 16, 2005)

Tanks is coming along nicely!!!

You did a great job on the glosso to! I can't wait to see it fill in even more! 

BBA is the bane of my existence!!! I have had it in every one of my planted tanks, and it can be a BEAR!!! I get so P.O.ed when some people can just up their co2 a bit and it goes away! So far in my 55g I have been able to contain it to just the gravel, but the more I pull out the more I wind up seeing elsewhere! All I know is to keep on top of it, and most people succeed in overcoming it!

Good Luck with it, and keep up the AWESOME WORK on the Journal! 
Drew


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks Orchidman, Cableguy, and BoxerBoyDrew! roud: 



BoxxerBoyDrew said:


> BBA is the bane of my existence!!! I have had it in every one of my planted tanks, and it can be a BEAR!!! I get so P.O.ed when some people can just up their co2 a bit and it goes away! So far in my 55g I have been able to contain it to just the gravel, but the more I pull out the more I wind up seeing elsewhere! All I know is to keep on top of it, and most people succeed in overcoming it!


Most people succeed in overcoming BBA, really??? *What are these people, magicians?*. BBA is like quack grass--you can dig it out, poison it, burn it with a torch, smother it with cover crops, then declare victory--but look away for a few weeks, and BAM: you are right back where you started! My hatred of BBA is only surpassed by my hatred of quack grass! Last time we had a major outbreak of BBA, we had to pull out most of the plants and start over (that's what brought about this radical rescape!). 

Additionally, if the tank gets algified again, I won't be able to brag to my husband about my superiority in planted tanking!

But hey, at least there is hope! If other people have magical algae-fighting super-powers maybe I can too. All I need to do is balance my CO2, light, oxygen, biomass, fertilizers, water parameters, bacterial flora, flow, filtration, substrate nutrients, sunlight through the window, fish load, temperature, and plant growth habits. Thats all. No biggy...


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

cableguy69846 said:


> On the lights, I prefer a longer photo period. I keep all my tank lights on 12 hours year round cuz I want to see the tanks and all that. I will just tweek CO2 or ferts.
> 
> ...
> 
> You can also try raising your lights further from the tank top. That may just be the issue on that. You could also tweek the CO2, like you said, or the ferts.


I'd really love to have the light on longer. I need to figure out how to raise the lights. I'll need some kind of hardware to make that happen. That's why I was interested in the screen idea (learned from one of Hoppy's posts) it seems like less of a PIA.

I'm skeptical regarding the idea that BBA is caused by light. I put some in a plastic tub with plain tap water and almost no light for 10 days and it didn't bother it one bit! Evil evil evil. :angryfire I guess that only proves that it cannot be killed by darkness not that light doesn't cause it to appear. 

However, I do suspect that the green spot is caused by the light. I'll look into it... And post as I try to tweak things.

Thanks.


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

*Tweaking things and posting about it :fish:*

Here's a look at the green spot and BBA on one of my anubias located near the top of the hill.










I decided to reduce the light just on the right side of the tank where the hill is. I did this by taping a sheet of window screen onto the inside of the splash guard of the light fixture. I only applied screen to part of the light that is above the hill. 










Based on what I read in Hoppy's post (below), I believe that this will result in the elevated area being in high light rather than crazy high light. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/114756-window-screen-light-filter.html

I'm not sure if light is the only cause of my problem. I've changed a lot of things in a short period of time. I know I should wait a week or two between changes in order to be able to evaluate the effects of each change, but I'm too impatient. Maybe tomorrow, when I'm older, I'll learn some restraint!

Little tank update:

All the crypts have melted. Depressing. I'm hoping that it's just temporary.

I also put a screen over the little tank's light--2 T5HOs seems like too much light without CO2. Yesterday, I got 5 Pristella Tetras for cycling the little tank. I know is probably too soon, but I just couldn't resist. I filled the tank with 75% water from the big tank and 25% tap water. Today the test strip showed:

ammonia was 0.5 
nitrite was 2 
Nitrate 20

I changed 70% of the water, improved the surface agitation, added another stem of willow hygro, and raised the temp to 82. It's not too hard to change water, so I'll just keep doing it as needed.

TTFN


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

ghotifish said:


> Here's a look at the green spot and BBA on one of my anubias located near the top of the hill.
> 
> 
> I decided to reduce the light just on the right side of the tank where the hill is. I did this by taping a sheet of window screen onto the inside of the splash guard of the light fixture. I only applied screen to part of the light that is above the hill.
> ...


Now the algae makes sense. Anubias is an algae magnet due to its slow growth. You may still have something out of whack, but don't mess with anything until you see how the light will effect it. And I think you are right about the elevated area. The screen may be the solution. Kind of makes sense.

As for the little tank, one T5HO is too much without CO2. That will quickly become an algae factory if not babied. Do you plan on any CO2 for that tank? And adding a bunch of stem plants may keep it at bay until you get the plants you want in there. Then you can take out the stems and sell them or trade them.

As for the crypts, give them some time. If they don't start coming back, then worry, but not yet. They could just be going through Crypt melt.


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

cableguy69846 said:


> You may still have something out of whack, but don't mess with anything until you see how the light will effect it.


Gosh, you sound like my husband--"be patient yada yada yada..." :smile: That's good advice and I am following it, for now.

The reduced light seems to have slowed the expansion of the bba and the green spot. I snipped off the annubias leaves with the most bba. I am planning on pulling out one of the annubias and spraying is with a 1:4 excel dilution to see if that helps.

Unfortunately, our CO2 ran out while we were away visiting family for Thanksgiving. The CO2 place is closed on weekends so we are SOL. We have an back-up tank that we use for making carbonated water but that one's nearly out too. Sigh. So much for keeping things stable! 

I should be getting my regulator for the little tank back from Green Leaf Aquarium in a couple days. This is the one that used to be on the 40 gal but it broke so we ordered a new one for the 40 gal and sent the broken one back for repairs. I gotta say, GLA really stands by their products. We've had that regulator for >2 years and they fixed it for free and even tossed in a needle valve upgrade for our trouble. You don't see companies backing up their products like that very often in this era of disposable everything. It's refreshing.

I ordered a plant pack from over on APC with 14 species that I've never had before. I'm excited. I'm not sure about how the cycle is going. I've been changing 60% of the water every 1-2 days. The ammonia and nitrates are Okay but the Nitrites are off the chart. The fish don't look any worse for the wear. I really hope this settles down so that when the new plants arrive I'll be able to start the tank on an ei regimen. I've been dosing ei but of course most of it is removed in my massive water changes. C'est la vie.

It looks like this is turning into a two tank journal. I suppose that's legal. I'll try to stay focused on the 40 gal-- but when I'm ordered not to "mess with anything" I have to direct my attention elsewhere. :tongue:

Ttfn


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

ghotifish said:


> Gosh, you sound like my husband--"be patient yada yada yada..." :smile: That's good advice and I am following it, for now.
> 
> It looks like this is turning into a two tank journal. I suppose that's legal. I'll try to stay focused on the 40 gal-- but when I'm ordered not to "mess with anything" I have to direct my attention elsewhere. :tongue:
> 
> Ttfn


That is good on the first part. Don't worry I am guilty of the same thing. I tamper with the tanks too much. I think at some point we all do it. It is in our nature.:hihi:

And that is good that the light reduction is also reducing the BBA. Hope it works in the long run for you.

And the reason we end up with MTS is our need to tamper with a tank at every waking moment. Just wait until you have to wait for both tanks to chill out. Then you will be wanting to set up a 3rd.:hihi:


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

I've been making progress! Here's how things look today











I moved the hairgrass to the sides of the tank. Planted H.G. At the top of the hill and rotala macrandra on the lower part of the hill. I thinned out the Willow Hygro because it was going nuts. The glosso and the staurogyne are growing in well. The moss is also really taking off. 

Here's one of our berried shrimp:











Here's the bba situation. It's not terrible, but I don't like any BBA in my tank. I think the reduced light is helping.











Here's an experiment I'm conducting. I sprayed this annubia with a 1:4 water & excel solution and let it sit for approximately 5 min before returning it to the tank. I'll post pictures of my progress.











I'm pleased with my scape but it's still not finished. I'm going to let things grow in for a bit before I change things too much.

:icon_ques I appreciate feedback and ideas for how I could improve! 

Thanks for reading. :fish:

TTFN


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

The tank looks good. That Glosso is taking off like a beast. I love how the moss is growing in around all the rocks that looks sharp.:icon_smil


----------



## sidefunk (Apr 22, 2010)

Great looking tank. I find that you don't even need to spot treat the bba with excel and that you can just overdose excel directly into the tank and the bba will turn red and die off in a few days. Take it easy at first though to see how your other inhabitants react to the excel overdose.


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks Cableguy. That Glosso you sent me really is growing like crazy! I'm excited because I've always wanted a lush carpet. 

Thanks Sidefunk. We've been dosing 8-10ml excel daily for algae suppression for a couple years. The BBA appears unaffected. How much do you recommend?


----------



## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

I know I am coming in late to the game with this but are you concerned at all that using paper clips, unless they are some form of plastic, will rust and cause something unwanted in the tank?


----------



## Reginald2 (Mar 10, 2009)

This is a really great looking tank. I'm eager to hear what you think about the screen. I've been thinking of trying to cut back on my own light.

I've had great luck spot treating with Hydrogen Peroxide. A couple of spritzes then rinsing it with some tap before dropping back in the tank.

That moss hill is amazing, how did you get it to take?


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Yay! I just figured out how to quote two separate posts in one reply! It's a brave new world. :icon_idea

Here goes:



demonr6 said:


> I know I am coming in late to the game with this but are you concerned at all that using paper clips, unless they are some form of plastic, will rust and cause something unwanted in the tank?


I'm not too worried about the paper clips. I don't plan to have them in there for too much longer and they haven't rusted yet. Even if they do, rust seems pretty innocuous, it's just iron oxide. Plants like iron, right? 

I started out using bamboo skewers. I turned to paperclips because I was having trouble cutting the skewers and the thread that I was going to use to tie the plants to the skewers go all tangled up. Next time I have to use stakes, I plan to give bamboo skewers or toothpicks another go. If I do, I'll document it here for posterity. :wink: 



Reginald2 said:


> This is a really great looking tank. I'm eager to hear what you think about the screen. I've been thinking of trying to cut back on my own light.
> 
> I've had great luck spot treating with Hydrogen Peroxide. A couple of spritzes then rinsing it with some tap before dropping back in the tank.
> 
> That moss hill is amazing, how did you get it to take?


I'm a big fan of the screen. You can see in the picture how much darker the hill is compared to the earlier, pre-screen photos (we even adjusted the most recent photo to make it brighter). It's not so obvious in person but on film I could really see the difference. Next time I will remove the screen for picture day! I also have screen on my little tank and it's working very well. That Hoppy fellow gives some good advice!

Regarding getting the moss hill to take:

I tied dental floss between two straightened out paper clips. Then I jammed paperclips into the substrate like stakes. I arranged the moss how I wanted it and then I pinned the moss down with the dental floss. It's kind of like a spider's web. Much to my surprise it worked. I suspect that I'll be able to remove all the anchors in about a month. things are really getting nicely interwoven. I tried to pull out an annubia to spot treat it and it was so tangled up with moss I was scared to move it. It's a good thing but it makes it harder to move stuff around.

I have no idea how people usually accomplish this task but that's what worked for me!

I've been reading about using hydrogen peroxide and I'm intrigued.


Thanks so much for reading a responding!

TTFN:fish:


----------



## sidefunk (Apr 22, 2010)

I would try maybe 5x your daily excel dose for one day. Although I'm not really sure how much I put I know I put quite a bit. You will know it works if in a few days the bba turns red. If not try again with a higher dose. Remember though that it will get the other algae as well so if you have algae eaters that depend on there being algae you will want to supplement a little extra food for them for a while.


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

*HELP! Algae!*

Bad news; the bba is spreading. I'm starting to get worried. The bba is on the crypts, the annubias, the rocks, the substrate, and even the glass. It isn't a large volume, but it's widely distributed. I've also got a moderate GSA outbreak. This tank has never been totally free of bba--little tufts would appear here and there on the substrate and the crypts but the annubias and the rocks were clean. 

BBA can be such a disaster. In the past we've had to cut out most of the plants and remove the hardscape to deal with it. That would be really sad.

The thing that I find most frustrating is that I don't know what the cause is. 

CO2-- maxed out. More would kill the fish.
Light-- high but not crazy high. Reduced over the hill. 7 hr photoperiod.
Flow-- excellent
Fertilization--EI increased from the 20-40 gal recipe to the 40-60 gal recipe 1 month ago due to nutrient deficiency. We also add 3/32 tsp K2SO4 3x/wk to supplement the potassium (had a K deficiency) 
Aeration: airstone 13hrs/day
Extras- Daily Excel 2x overdose (8ml).
Temp 74.
Plants-moderate volume, good mix of slow and fast growers. Good growth rate.
Fish: 30 tetras and white clouds, 8 corys, 1 BN Pleco, 2 ottos, 20 CRS.
Organics- this might be an issue: lots of leaves being shed from the nutrient diffiency. Lots of little stuff dug up by the Corys. Been over-feeding the fish a bit.

Interventions: did a mid-week water change. Cleaned the filter. Cleaned the spray bar. Swore off over-feeding the fish. Dosed 40 ml excel (10x over-dose).

Non-Draconian options available to me: reducing the photo period to 6 hours, extending the screen over the whole light, adjusting the ferts, putting charcoal in the filter, adding a 2 hour siesta to the photoperiod. 

:help: Please help! I need suggestions. I want to fix the cause, not just the symptom!


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

ghotifish said:


> Bad news; the bba is spreading. I'm starting to get worried. The bba is on the crypts, the annubias, the rocks, the substrate, and even the glass. It isn't a large volume, but it's widely distributed. I've also got a moderate GSA outbreak. This tank has never been totally free of bba--little tufts would appear here and there on the substrate and the crypts but the annubias and the rocks were clean.
> 
> BBA can be such a disaster. In the past we've had to cut out most of the plants and remove the hardscape to deal with it. That would be really sad.
> 
> ...


I am no expert, but I think the bold statement is your biggest problem. Maybe start with that and see where you end up?


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

That's my guess also. Is there anything else that I should be doing to address this?


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

ghotifish said:


> That's my guess also. Is there anything else that I should be doing to address this?


What happened when you upped the EI dosing?


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

The nutrient deficiency went away and the plants started growing really well. I don't think that's the problem since I upped the ferts because of a demonstrated deficiency. If the plants are using the nutrients, then they shouldn't cause trouble, right? We had terrible BBA before the rescape when we were dosing according to the 20-40 Gal recipe. 

Is there a particular nutrient should I be most concerned about?

We've had a BBA problem in this tank for years. It got better for a month after the rescape when I removed almost everything and started fresh. Now, I feel like the tank is returning to it's old ways.


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

ghotifish said:


> The nutrient deficiency went away and the plants started growing really well. I don't think that's the problem since I upped the ferts because of a demonstrated deficiency. If the plants are using the nutrients, then they shouldn't cause trouble, right? We had terrible BBA before the rescape when we were dosing according to the 20-40 Gal recipe.
> 
> Is there a particular nutrient should I be most concerned about?
> 
> We've had a BBA problem in this tank for years. It got better for a month after the rescape when I removed almost everything and started fresh. Now, I feel like the tank is returning to it's old ways.


Maybe your macros are too high with the fish load?


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

That's possible... We do have more fish than before. I wonder what the primary signs of nutrient excess are? I thought other types of algae were more related to excess nutrients than BBA? 

I'm going to go throw a few more willow hygro back in there since they a majorly heavy feeders.

Hmm. Maybe it's the light? That's something that has been consistent for a long time just like the bba... Hmmm


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

ghotifish said:


> That's possible... We do have more fish than before. I wonder what the primary signs of nutrient excess are? I thought other types of algae were more related to excess nutrients than BBA?
> 
> I'm going to go throw a few more willow hygro back in there since they a majorly heavy feeders.
> 
> Hmm. Maybe it's the light? That's something that has been consistent for a long time just like the bba... Hmmm


I would say do that, and wait a week and see what happens. If that doesn't help maybe go back to dosing for the 20 - 40 gallon tank.


----------



## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I love the way the moss has filled in between those rocks. Beautiful.


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks somewhatshocked! I really want to keep the tank healthy so that it can finish growing in!


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks Cableguy. I appreciate all your feedback!


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

ghotifish said:


> Thanks Cableguy. I appreciate all your feedback!


No problem. Always glad to help if I can.roud:


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

After putting 40 ml of excel in last night, the fish seem fine, the algae appears the same, and my beautiful downoi melted dramatically. I guess downoi don't care for excel. oops


----------



## seahunter (Nov 29, 2011)

Your tank is absolutely gorgeous! I love everything about it and I can guarantee you that, i will steal some ideas for my new tank from you. I just read your entire thread by the way lol and I must say.. F#$%!! I should have never added the BBA on the rocks from my old tank:frown:...its only a matter of time now before it spreads and gets out of control.....Im so upset with myself right now..in SW I don’t think there’s an algae like bba.. I think most if not all go away right away as soon as you put the tanks parameters in order..well..there’s one called volonia but even that isn’t as bad I think lol beautiful tank!


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks Seahunter! Your earlier saltwater tanks are amazing! BBA will supposedly go away if you get your tank parameters stabilized, but we've never managed to do it for very long. Best bet has been to remove leaves that are covered and hardscape if it gets too bad...You may have better luck than I do. Good luck!



seahunter said:


> Your tank is absolutely gorgeous! I love everything about it and I can guarantee you that, i will steal some ideas for my new tank from you. I just read your entire thread by the way lol and I must say.. F#$%!! I should have never added the BBA on the rocks from my old tank:frown:...its only a matter of time now before it spreads and gets out of control.....Im so upset with myself right now..in SW I don’t think there’s an algae like bba.. I think most if not all go away right away as soon as you put the tanks parameters in order..well..there’s one called volonia but even that isn’t as bad I think lol beautiful tank!


----------



## seahunter (Nov 29, 2011)

ghotifish said:


> Thanks Seahunter! Your earlier saltwater tanks are amazing! BBA will supposedly go away if you get your tank parameters stabilized, but we've never managed to do it for very long. Best bet has been to remove leaves that are covered and hardscape if it gets too bad...You may have better luck than I do. Good luck!


Thanks. As you can see from my SW setups. When I get into something, I almost always go too far, or so my wife says lol. Believe it or not the BBA actually looks like its slowly going away. I just hope it stays that way till I get my new one up and running. What are you using for water changes and top off? Have you tested your tap water? Maybe that’s your problem?


----------



## Nate McFin (Mar 19, 2009)

First of all, beautiful tank! Nice scaping.
Regarding your algae, I think you have a light issue. I have a 40B with 2x39 t5ho and have slowly raised the lights up (using Hoppys chart in the lighting section of the forum) I was battling various algae for a year before I used the chart to get my lighting down to medium (according to the chart) Here is how high I now have my lights set up.It may actually be up 2 more inches since the pic. I too have pressurized co2 and EI dosing. Trust me...high light is not all its cracked up to be.









Keep up the good work, it is looking great!


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Seahunter - Nice work on the BBA, hope it keeps up for you. We're on well water with a water softner, do 50% water changes with a python from the tap every Sunday. We've on and off wondered if the water softner was our problem, and recently considered using RO water. That's why I was asking how you handled it on your thread. For now, we've decided that prepping and storing 20-40 gallons (we're thinking of upgrading our tank somewhat soon) of RO sounded like too much work. We've been able to grow 60-70% of what we've tried without treating our water at all...

Haven't tested it, well, in some time. Should probably do that but all our test kits are expired and haven't gotten around to getting more. 






seahunter said:


> Thanks. As you can see from my SW setups. When I get into something, I almost always go too far, or so my wife says lol. Believe it or not the BBA actually looks like its slowly going away. I just hope it stays that way till I get my new one up and running. What are you using for water changes and top off? Have you tested your tap water? Maybe that’s your problem?


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Nate McFin said:


> First of all, beautiful tank! Nice scaping.
> Regarding your algae, I think you have a light issue. I have a 40B with 2x39 t5ho and have slowly raised the lights up (using Hoppys chart in the lighting section of the forum) I was battling various algae for a year before I used the chart to get my lighting down to medium (according to the chart) Here is how high I now have my lights set up.It may actually be up 2 more inches since the pic. I too have pressurized co2 and EI dosing. Trust me...high light is not all its cracked up to be.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Nate McFin - Like I said on your thread, your hanging system is pretty nice! We've also been using pressurized CO2 and EI since we started, and haven't been able to go more than a few months without some sort of algae out break...generally timed around getting off-track with fertilizing or running out of CO2 and needing a day or two to get the tank refilled. Lower light would hopefully help balance out those issues.

Your tank has gone through some nice revisions too, I think I've liked each version!


----------



## seahunter (Nov 29, 2011)

ghotifish said:


> Seahunter - Nice work on the BBA, hope it keeps up for you. We're on well water with a water softner, do 50% water changes with a python from the tap every Sunday. We've on and off wondered if the water softner was our problem, and recently considered using RO water. That's why I was asking how you handled it on your thread. For now, we've decided that prepping and storing 20-40 gallons (we're thinking of upgrading our tank somewhat soon) of RO sounded like too much work. We've been able to grow 60-70% of what we've tried without treating our water at all...
> 
> Haven't tested it, well, in some time. Should probably do that but all our test kits are expired and haven't gotten around to getting more.


First thing I would do is check the TDS coming out of your tap water. Your setup seems flawless so this stuff is definitely being fuelled by something. How old are your bulbs? I know in SW older bulbs lose their par after a certain amount of time and the spectrum will change. An algae bloom of some kind usually follows. I don’t know if that’s the case in FW.....just thinking out loud lol


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

seahunter said:


> First thing I would do is check out the TDS coming out of your tap water. Your setup seems flawless so this stuff is definitely being fuelled by something. How old are your bulbs? I know in SW older bulbs loose there par after a certain amount of time and the spectrum will change. An algae bloom of some kind usually follows. I don’t know if that’s the case in FW.....just thinking out loud lol


+1 on the TDS. I didn't even think of that. *facepalm*

And you are right on the bulbs. T5 bulbs tend to last longer, but that will still happen in a freshwater setup.


----------



## Nate McFin (Mar 19, 2009)

I posted in this in my thread but I decided to also paste a portion of it here as it really pertains to your thread here as well. I look forward to seeing how things work out for you. 
Nate

FROM MY THREAD-REPLY TO GHOTIFISH


Nate McFin said:


> I have never heard of too high of light causing slow growth with the exception of if the high light causes a deficiency of ferts or co2. Which obviously happens all the time. I have been alot happier with my tank since I bumped it up a few notches. I always felt like I was chasing my tail with algae/deficiency and bad growth. Now the growth is slower (I am good with that) and I dont see nearly the problems with algae I used to.
> 
> Good luck!
> Nate


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

*Tested my water, but I don't know what it means!*

I just tested the gH and kH in my tank. The gH is <1! the Kh is 12-13, and the pH is in the 7ish range out of the tap.

Are these water parameters something that should concern me? Should I be doing something?

We are using a salt-based water softener because our well water is liquid rust. I wonder if there is a bunch of salt I'm my water...

I wonder if this contributes to some of my plants growing slowly, my snails dying, and my algae problems?



PS: My husband wants me to be clear that my definition of an "algae problem" is any visible algae, especially any BBA. :wink:


----------



## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

ghotifish said:


> I just tested the gH and kH in my tank. The gH is <1! the Kh is 12-13, and the pH is in the 7ish range out of the tap.
> 
> Are these water parameters something that should concern me? Should I be doing something?
> 
> ...


It could be causing the snail problem. Not really sure though. I am not 100% on how well water and all that is.


----------



## seahunter (Nov 29, 2011)

ghotifish said:


> I just tested the gH and kH in my tank. The gH is <1! the Kh is 12-13, and the pH is in the 7ish range out of the tap.
> 
> Are these water parameters something that should concern me? Should I be doing something?
> 
> ...


Im no expert but your readings seem a little out of wack. GH seems way to low and KH way to high.. The readings you posted are in DKH right? What I ment by testing your TDS is the total dissolved solids coming out of your tap water. There are little electronic meters that cost about 20 bucks that you can hook up to your tap. Hopefully someone else can chime in here and help you out.

All I can help with is. If you want to increase your GH add a small bag of crushed coral somewhere in the tank. To lower you KH(which you may not want to) 
Try either mixing your tap water with distilled or get an RO unit or maybe even pick up your CO2 count.


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Well, the pet store didn't have a tds tester so I decided that I would test my gh and kh instead. I had actually tested my gh and kh recently, but I didn't believe the results because they seemed "out of whack". I got a different brand of test strips and the same resukts, so I think they are fairly reliable. 

From what I've been reading, these results may be related to my water softener which reduces gh by removing CA and increases kh by adding sodium. People are pretty adamant that water softener water is bad in a planted tank, but in my case I cannot use my untreated water because it has 500x the normal amount of iron and is dark orange--basically liquid rust. 

My only options are to live with it, replace the whole house's water treatment system, or set-up an RO/DI system. I've been trying to live with it since I've blown through a lot of money on aquarium stuff lately and I don't know anything about plumbing.

To that end, I put 1 Tbs of GLA "ultimate GZh Booster" into the tank tonight (it turns out my husband ordered a bag full a long time ago, we just haven't been using it). I'm going to test tomorrow, when I'm sure it's totally dissolved. I want to get the GH up to 3-4, I think.

Getting sleepy, more posts later...


----------



## seahunter (Nov 29, 2011)

any updates? hope everything is going good. cheers


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Hi all - 

Life obviously got away from us a bit. We're still plugging away at the tank - in the last several months we've had: 1) a 7 or so day power outage where we managed to keep all of our fish, 2) dropped our light into the fishtank and had about a week of one lamp before our new light setup arrived, and 3) the busy part of year for both of us. 

That said, everything is still looking pretty good. The setbacks have kept us from seeing the full glosso carpet come in, and our Ludwigia Red was hit pretty hard and is only growing very tiny leafs. The Rotala Macrandra is very new to the tank, but the new growth seems to be coming in nicely formed, but far less red. 

The new light is a 2x39 from Catalina, hung on some universal hanging bars I found online. Building our own would have probably been nicer, but these aren't too bad. Hanging it was a bit of a chore - we ended up having to tie Prussik knots in rope that then hooked to the chain in order to stop the main attachment from potentially sliding backwards. Seems to work pretty well - although maybe not the cleanest looking. This is our first time hanging a fixture, and the lightbulbs were shining much more into our eyes than before. We have temporarily hung sheets of printer paper infront of the light to block it, which seems to do the trick without shading the tank much. What do other people do about this?

Aquascaping wise, any thoughts? The hill is nice, although the moss and the size of the other plants on the left side of the scape kind of swallow the rocks. We've already dug them out and put them on risers made of gravel in nylons. The earlier scape with the willow hygro more central was maybe nicer than this current look - but it would be nice to incorporate some of the red stems somehow. If we can get them to grow nicely - any thoughts on the small leaves of the Ludwigia Red? 

Not sure about the stand of Lindernia - in some ways I like the placement and in others it may cut too much into the staurogyne/glosso carpet. If we can't get the glosso to grow sideways soon we may give up on it. Haven't had very good luck with carpets in this tank. 

Anyways, enough chatting. Here are some new shots:

Full tank shot:









The hill (we use these straightened out paperclips to hold the moss down for a little while after we pull huge clumps out to trim it):









The new-ish red plants (Rotala Macrandra on left, Ludwigia Red on the left:









The new light hanging setup:


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Hi, this is ghotifish's other half, 

As always, this tank is a collaboration. Personally, I think this aquascape needs some editing. I'm not satisfied with the stem plants in the background. I worry that the impact of the hill is lost with stems of the same height all across the back. However, I'm having a hard time deciding what would look better. I do like all the lushness of our current scape.

Suggestions?

Right now we are trying to grow out the two red plants to see if either will be successful in this tank. Since we got the new light, the plant growth seems like it has improved, due to significantly better light distribution in the tank. I'm hoping to finally get some horizontal growth on the glosso. Also, the tiny bit of hc that survived since my first failed HC at temp is starting to grow under the new lights, so I'm hoping that we may finally have a chance to grow a nice little carpet of HC.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the tank but I would appreciate any design ideas you all might have. It's hard to think objectively about your own tank when you see it everyday!

P.S. here are some more pics!

Thanks for reading


Hill Horizontal:









Hill Vertical:









Full light system:


----------



## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

We are getting a little algae bloom since we got the new light. Fortunately, we got a shipment of shrimp today. We are hoping that they will live long enough to clean up the place. The part that is bothering me is the green spot on the anubias on the hill. I suppose we will have to raise the light. Having low light plants up high isn't optimal. Oh well. I read someplace that bumping some of your ferts can actually help with green spot. I'll have to look into it.

Have a good day. Please give us aquascaping feedback. We need an outside perspective!


----------



## Hyzer (Mar 9, 2010)

I'm really liking your mixture of styles and healthy looking growth. 

Have you considered something smaller on the left side in front of the crypts? Maybe even a smaller hill like on the right to balance it out more. I don't know much about scaping but think a little symmetry may help.


----------



## 2in10 (Feb 8, 2011)

Looking very good, glad to hear you have overcome the issues.


----------

