# CO2 Art Dual stage regulator and solenoid



## jsarrow (Jun 10, 2008)

Curious if anyone has any real world experience with their dual stage regulator and the BMV solenoid? The price is good and I'm wondering about the build quality and functionality. If you actually own and are operating either of these any feedback would be greatly appreciated as I’m contemplating purchasing one or both of these.

Thanks!

Regulator: http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections/dual-stage-regulators/products/aquarium-co2-dual-stage-regulator

Solenoid: http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections/solenoids/products/advanced-co2-solenoid-valve-for-planted-aquariums-by-bmv


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

Seems cheap for a dual stage.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

The linked regulator is not a dual stage regulator.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

Darkblade48 said:


> The linked regulator is not a dual stage regulator.


Wouldn't that be blatant false advertising?


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Wouldn't that be blatant false advertising?


They say that it is indeed a two-stage. They won't divulge the schematic of it though and claim it's because of trade secrets. 

It obviously isn't what we think of a dual stage regulator. It could be something different that we haven't seen before but I think there's some smoke and mirrors involved.


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## jsarrow (Jun 10, 2008)

That what I'm trying to determine, if its actually a two stage reg because it does not appear that there is a second diaphragm coming from the back. I'm wondering if there is some other mechanism built in that allows it not to avoid “end of tank dump”? Alas, we are all just giving opinion’s here and I'm hoping someone who is actually using one will chime in.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Wouldn't that be blatant false advertising?


But then who would be around to enforce any infraction? The internet police? I think they are pretty busy already. Let's dig a bit deeper into the ad?
Needle valve? World Class Advance Precision Needle Valve by SMC.
Industrial-grade Precision Needle Valve.
Or does it look very much like the common cheap knockoff from China that doesn't work worth a flip? 

Reduced gas cost?
As pressure drops in the gas cylinder, our regulators are designed to minimise the resulting increase in outlet pressure, thus resulting in reduced gas costs, reduced cylinder handling, and improved accuracy.

This seems to be blowing up the features of even the best dual stage reg. I will agree that it is possible but not really a big point to advert?

Solenoids? Our regulators feature high-performance solenoids 

DUH! Isn't that the same solenoid many of us avoid because it is a big PIA? 

Bottom line for me is that I avoid dealing with folks who try to sell me by telling me lies about how good their equipment is without giving me any real facts. 

No! I do not own one and likely never will. HOG swill!!!


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## Ghia (May 1, 2014)

Maybe this discussion will shed some light on the subject.


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## jsarrow (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks for the link Ghia, looks like it is not a dual stage reg based on the feedback.


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## KH2PO4 (Jul 18, 2009)

jsarrow said:


> Thanks for the link Ghia, looks like it is not a dual stage reg based on the feedback.


Have you read the (UKAP's) thread to the end?
They seem to know what they're talking about, ie, 
dual gauges vs dual stage.

I was interested but put off by the non CGA-320 fitting.

Bump:


PlantedRich said:


> But then who would be around to enforce any infraction? The internet police? I think they are pretty busy already. Let's dig a bit deeper into the ad?
> Needle valve? World Class Advance Precision Needle Valve by SMC.
> Industrial-grade Precision Needle Valve.
> Or does it look very much like the common cheap knockoff from China that doesn't work worth a flip?
> >>>


That needle valve is quite good, I'm using it, bought from them.
Actually it's good enough for me to not wanting a needle valve that's 
better than that, except the push-connect-fitting that comes with it.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

KH2PO4 said:


> Have you read the (UKAP's) thread to the end?
> They seem to know what they're talking about, ie,
> dual gauges vs dual stage.
> 
> ...


The point being? You say it is good enough except for problems, but that sure doesn't sound like what they call it, does it? 

They call it, "World Class Advance Precision Needle Valve by SMC.
Industrial-grade Precision Needle Valve" but you call it "good enough".

To most there is a world of difference in just good enough and world class precision so I call that lying to me. When people are that blatant in their lies, I do not recommend their product under any condition. 
At best one might be buying a cheap product from a group who lies to you!


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## KH2PO4 (Jul 18, 2009)

One thing, I didn't say there was a problem, I just don't like push-connect-fittings.


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## KH2PO4 (Jul 18, 2009)

OK, the "point" is I think it's better than "cheap knockoff from China that doesn't work 
worth a flip". 

I should have said "Actually it's good enough for me to stop wanting a needle valve 
that's better than that". I didn't buy it intentionally. It came with the inline regulator 
I bought from them.

I always wanted to replace my Azoo's needle valve with one from Fabco or Swagelok, etc.
But this SMC valve fills my need.

World class? I don't know. I don't have a world class needle vale to compare it with.
But I would admit that the wording sounds over the top to me too.


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## Ghia (May 1, 2014)

Hehe...if you elect to name all manufacturers who view their own product(s) through somewhat rose tinted glasses as liars, then I'd say most of the stuff/gadgets I have were sold to me by liars. ;-)


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Ghia said:


> Hehe...if you elect to name all manufacturers who view their own product(s) through somewhat rose tinted glasses as liars, then I'd say most of the stuff/gadgets I have were sold to me by liars. ;-)


There are those who fudge their claims a bit and then there are liars. Since there are so many from which to choose, I stick to those who stay closer to the truth. Perhaps you need to upgrade the folks you support? 

I get lots of E-mail offers but I don't have to support them!


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## Ghia (May 1, 2014)

I never buy anything of some importance and/or value without doing my own investigation into the quality of the product and the reputation of the manufacturer, and look into other people's experience with the product. I let the facts speak for themselves and pay minimal attention to the rosy view. 
Of course you are entitled to your aggressive stance towards this product...I do not own it and will therefore not pass any kind of judgement on it. What I said was meant in good humour.


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## exv152 (Jun 8, 2009)

There's no way whatsoever that that tiny unit is a dual stage (dual gauge yes), there isn't enough room for two chambers in there. Looks similar to a lot of the stuff that comes out of asia. The solenoid may be a different story; german made, low 2 watt consumption.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

search alibaba for dual stage aquarium co2 regulator...

some sellers have no clue the difference between two gauges and two stages....


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

im using their cheaper single stage dual gauge one, solenoid and needle valve. regulator is good as in pressure stays constant. solenoid was faulty but i got replacement (very good support team).in hands feels cheap but does the job. needle valve i dont like very much. its hard to adjust, but when thats done bps stays solid.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

I think you guys are looking at this wrong at this point. They claim it prevents the dreaded oftd. If it does that, great. If not, ask for a refund and post your findings.


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## exv152 (Jun 8, 2009)

oldpunk78 said:


> I think you guys are looking at this wrong at this point. They claim it prevents the dreaded oftd. If it does that, great. If not, ask for a refund and post your findings.


Claiming it prevents EOTD is one thing, but they're actually using the term "dual stage" regulator in their advertisement which is false.


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## KH2PO4 (Jul 18, 2009)

dzega said:


> im using their cheaper single stage dual gauge one, solenoid and needle valve. regulator is good as in pressure stays constant. solenoid was faulty but i got replacement (very good support team).in hands feels cheap but does the job. needle valve i dont like very much. its hard to adjust, but when thats done bps stays solid.


Yeah the stock needle valve in the cheaper models looks the same as 
my Azoo's and Aquatec and tons of other regs from China. It's hard to adjust, 
hard to turn, too coarse. But it holds.

Anyway if it bothers you much, I think it is worth upgrading to the SMC valve, 
very easy to adjust.

Bump:


exv152 said:


> Claiming it prevents EOTD is one thing, but they're actually using the term "dual stage" regulator in their advertisement which is false.


Everything we talk at this point is speculation. 
Hope someone who've bought a dual stage from them
shares some info.


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## exv152 (Jun 8, 2009)

KH2PO4 said:


> Everything we talk at this point is speculation.
> Hope someone who've bought a dual stage from them shares some info.


It's not speculation, it’s an educated and experienced observation. Dual stage regulators have two bonnets, two diaphrams, two poppet assemblies/springs etc, and from looking at the picture, there is no way all of that is inside that one tiny unit. If you believe that, I have swamp land in Florida to sell you. Lol. As far as EOTD goes, who knows, anything is possible but highly unlikely.


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## KH2PO4 (Jul 18, 2009)

Yeah, I didn't believe at first when I saw it. But when I read the UKAPS' thread,
someone asked them about that (too small, no protrusion on the back) and 
they (CO2Art) insisted it's dual-stage. They said they designed the reg themselves.
And said it's a unique design. And 100% money back if it's not (working as a dual-stage 
regulator).

Guessing is guessing.


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## exv152 (Jun 8, 2009)

KH2PO4 said:


> ....And 100% money back if it's not (working as a dual-stage regulator).
> 
> Guessing is guessing.


Umm, no. I'm sure you can tell the difference between "working as" a dual stage, and being a dual stage.


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## KH2PO4 (Jul 18, 2009)

Yeah that's why I specifically put that in the parentheses.
And no point of more guessing. OK, I'm out until there's more info.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

There's a new thread posted on the CO2Art board from one of their guys in response to these questions/comments. Linking it here for anyone who may not see it over there.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=726889


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

It is possible that this is just a case of my age being a factor. Old school says you build a company and reputation on what you do. New school thinking is that you build the business on advertising. Last time I bought something based on adverts alone, it cost me $400 and I was only making 47.50 a week! 
But looking back, that $400 was money well spent because the burn has saved me from jumping into any number of things that would have cost me much, much more.


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## exv152 (Jun 8, 2009)

Sending a sample to someone to test for EOTD doesn't prove it's a dual stage. To use the label of "dual stage" the assembly MUST have two internal chambers with two separate diaphrams, which reduces the pressure in two steps. Otherwise it's just a redesigned single stage, so just call it that. Let's see an internal diagram of the assembly.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

Someone on the European forum should ask for a video of the end of pressure rise. You'd have your answer right then and there. If it is truly a 2 stage, the low pressure gauge will just fall to zero. If it's not, you'll notice a slight rise (2-5 psi is normal) just before it runs out.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Size of the diaphragm, bigger the size normally more sensitive, precise and exact constant output without presure swing.

But from the size of the discussed regulator, if it is diaphragm design, the diaphragm must be really small and I doubt there is room to fit two diaphragms.

Normally a small regulator of this size, the mechanism inside is piston instead of diaphragm…
And it is possible a "dual stage" if it is sophisticated design with two steps pressure adjust pistons, but the positon itself is troublesome, friction=problem, so we don't see piston design regulators on applications that require precise and constant output.
The piston design regulators, small and as a real regulator, handle the abrupt flow rate(on/off gas rush action) at approximately lower output pressure. Typically seen in paintball application( I am not talking about the ASA valve here)

The small size, and a black adjustable nut on the back of the co2 Art regulator, got me thinking, is it a piston inside?

Bellow is one of the paintall regulator designs, it is a real reg that can lower the ouput pressure, not the ASA valve.


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## Minor Threat (Oct 6, 2012)

CO2art did post their design on the forum as its been a hot topic lately. link is on page 2.


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## exv152 (Jun 8, 2009)

Here is their diagram...


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Pistons!

missed the CO2 Art page this morning before I made the last post....

it is indeed a two stages, the piston first stage is not a real problem, but I guess the second stage piston is not a problem because there is no complaint of output pressure swing.

I want to try one...


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

Pretty cool. That's the smallest piston I've seen so far. Glad they finally posted the internals. Well... I'm out of business lol 

Do they offer the American co2 nipple?


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## dru (Mar 9, 2013)

If they offered a US fitting I would get one in an instant!

I would also pick up a 6 way splitter


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

oldpunk78 said:


> Pretty cool. That's the smallest piston I've seen so far. Glad they finally posted the internals. Well... I'm out of business lol


not yet, 

CO2 art regulator is really compact and it is a double stage, plus the affordable price, it is going to be very popular for sure. I myself want to get one.

The problem is the piston design, still be the same issue, friction. There is no complaints from the UK users so far, the build quality of the regulator is really good, but piston design regulators that handling the precise/exact output pressure, require internal cleaning once for a while, because the piston will become less sensitive and result in abrupt output pressure due to the gum buildup.

need to open it to perform the cleaning, oil it or in some case, change the O-ring.

And there is always advantage of custom co2 systems, because the small quantity that made, and the superior parts that chosen by the experienced builders. I don't see commercially available co2 systems that equip with Victor, Concoa, or Harris Group double stage regulators, swagelok or a parker metering valve, or high quality low wattage industrial grade solenoids.


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## exv152 (Jun 8, 2009)

Agree +1. The whole piston design is a really foreign concept, I guess only time will tell if they have the longevity and performance to compare with the other more well known brands/designs. Also, we know nothing about who manufactures them, the materials used, and to what standards they’ve been tested. I’ll stick with my concoa 312’s and my other single stage regs until I can see definitive proof of these questions. It may be some form of 2 stage/step regulator, and call me skeptical, but the jury is still out for me.


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## jsarrow (Jun 10, 2008)

Recall that this thread was originally started to get feedback from current users of this gauge.
No one with real world experience has responded yet. 
I think we all would agree that embracing new technology once it is been proven is a good thing and perhaps that will be the case after a few years of this set up being on the market. That said I'm currently building a 2 stage set up but maybe will get one of these once the smoke clears. Thanks for all the debate thus far as I think it’s been constructive and informative in general.


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## AlanLe (Jan 10, 2013)

This regulator is cheap for a reason. I don't care what the design look like. If the quality isnt there, you're just wasting money.


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