# Rcs dyeing ... help



## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

I have a 35 gal high and I had about 130 rcs shrimps in the tank to start off with. Now I am finding about 3-5 shrimps dead a day. They are not necessarily older shrimps that are dyeing – juvies are dyeing also. My water parameters are…

temp is 77f
ph is 7.4
kh is 4 or 70ppm
gh ?? no clue
ammonia is 0
nitrite is 0
nitrate is 10-15
I feed them HBH Crab & Lobster Bites about every other day to every third day. I did test the tank for copper and the test came out negitive - so copper is not the problem. I have not seen any of the adults saddled or berried yet, but they all have nice red coloring. I have not dose anything in the past 2 weeks, but before that, I was doing the EI doseing. I do a 30-50% wc every week. I do not add CO2 to the tank. Lighting is on for about 10 hours a day.
I have tiger shrimps in there also and they are all doing fine - no deaths. I have no fish in the tank - just rcs and tiger shrimps.
What am I doing wrong?? What more can I do? Any suggestions?


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## i love planted tanks (Apr 27, 2008)

i have the same prob had about 25 rcs and im down to about 6-7 and i had have them for about 6 months and no babies yet i dont know what im doing wrong eaither?


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

Hopefully someone will help us out...


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

To both:

What substrate are you using? Nitrates are a tad high. Are you noticing any strange, white spots on the sides of the head on any of the shrimp?


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

flourite black sand and no, I have not seen white spots on them.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Filter? Biofiltration?


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

eheim 2215


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I'd stop the HBH Crab & Lobster Bites and try just fish flakes or algae wafers...something without copper. I know your test was negative, but just try it anyways. Also, I do feed HBH Crab & Lobster Bites myself without trouble, but it seems most things are in check.

Again, try to lower your nitrates.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

Ok, I'll do another 50% wc tomorrow. I did one 2 days ago thinking that there must be something wrong with the water or they would not be dyeing. I've got cyclops in the tank so the water must not be all that bad.


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## Ebichua (May 13, 2008)

If you still experience loss and can't find any problems, use purigen. I have read multiple accounts in which people keep losing shrimp even though all the tests they do come out perfect. So they decide to use purigen to clean the water of whatever they can't see/test. Most, if not all, have found success in this method. 

Good luck.

And I second the lobster bites. 
I used to keep hermit crabs and we (hermit crab owners) were very much baffled to why they put copper in the food. It causes really bad molts and eventually lead to poisoning.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

I use to keep hermit crabs also and feed the same stuff to them. Yes, I eventually lost all of them to bad molts. It never occured to me that it could be because of the food. Interesting.....


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## botan (Sep 23, 2007)

cwilfinger and others,
About a year ago I was having the same problem. reasearch turned up an article by "Frank" something, who runs http://www.franksaquarium.com/. The article one reason given in the article for unexplained shrimp deaths was clorine levels being fine for plants and other critters but not for shrimp. I started doubling up on my prime and I have not had any deaths in that tank for 6 or 7 months now.
Give it a shot and let me know.
Bo.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

I don't use prime in my tanks. My local fish stores do not carry prime. I have to go 2 towns over to get prime and that whole store is super expensive! I use Topfin Water Conditioner (I do the "tote the buckets back and forth" thing so the watere is conditioned before it goes into the tanks). It saids on the bottle that it "reduces harmful Chlorine, Chloramine and heavy metals. So, what you are saying is, I should use about double the amount that they say to put in?


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

This morning I turned on my light to the tank and I found a tiger shrimp dead. :icon_cry: So far I do not see any other deaths but it is heavly planted and I did not do a good search - just a quick glance. 
A Quick question... is prime better than normal water conditioners? I read quite a few threads were there is mentioned of using prime in peoples tanks... Should I be using that instead of a generic water conditoner?
Another question...for those that are using the python or the hose method of draining and filling tanks, How do you know how much prime to put into the tank when you are through doing the water change? I do the water bucket method because then I know exactly how much water I took out of the tank and how much water conditioner to put in the tank. I ask this because toteing gallon size buckets back and forth is tiring and I am thinking of going the hose method.


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## DBL TAP (Apr 27, 2008)

Take a second and try to remember if you have done anything new and/or different since the deaths started to occur. Medications? Bad ferts? 

I started losing RCS when they started feeding on the carcasses that I didn't remove fast enough. And when they fed on the snails I smashed.

Would it be possible to isolate several shrimp in another container to see if its something in your tank that killing them?

I wish you luck. As much as I love dwarf shrimp, they can be a PITA!


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

I stopped adding ferts to the tank and started to do 30-50% wc every other day since the deaths. On quite a few of the deaths, I did not get to them fast enough to remove them and they were mostly consumed by the time I found them. 
I had 6 deaths today.....
I'm going to run out and get prime and do a 50% wc now and see if this will help them. I'm at loss at what is going wrong in the tank.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

Ok, I did a 50%wc and used double the amount on prime. I'm keeping my fingers crossed to see if this takes care of the problem. If not, I'll get some purigen and try that. On the up side of things, while doing the wc, I saw 3 rcs with saddles and one of the tigers is berried! Way cool!
I tested the water after the wc and the nitrates is still sitting at 10. I do not know how to get it any lower. I have done 3 50% wc in this past week alone. Am I ok at 10 or do I still have to get it lower? And if I have to get it lower, any suggestions on how? Water changes don't seem to work.


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## botan (Sep 23, 2007)

cwilfinger said:


> is prime better than normal water conditioners?Should I be using that instead of a generic water conditoner?


 Cwil,

Too tell you the truth I don't think there is much difference between Prime and any other water conditioner. I have used several other brands and never had a problem. So what ever you are using increase the dosage. I doubled mine with out any ill effects. Mind you all I keep are cherry red shrimp and a few Yamotos (Amanos) Trying to keep my first Amano hatchlings alive another 21 days. But that's a completely different water issue.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

botan said:


> Cwil,
> 
> Too tell you the truth I don't think there is much difference between Prime and any other water conditioner. I have used several other brands and never had a problem. So what ever you are using increase the dosage. I doubled mine with out any ill effects. Mind you all I keep are cherry red shrimp and a few Yamotos (Amanos) Trying to keep my first Amano hatchlings alive another 21 days. But that's a completely different water issue.


Please refer to this page for more information: http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm

And it was been well-agreed amongst shrimp keepers and breeders that Prime is the dechlorinator of choice. There have been some problems from using AmQuel+ in the past with some breeders.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

cwilfinger said:


> I stopped adding ferts to the tank and started to do 30-50% wc every other day since the deaths. On quite a few of the deaths, I did not get to them fast enough to remove them and they were mostly consumed by the time I found them.
> I had 6 deaths today.....
> I'm going to run out and get prime and do a 50% wc now and see if this will help them. I'm at loss at what is going wrong in the tank.


That's one question I completely forgot to ask. Yes, use Prime.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Have you considered lack of O2 at night? I started running an airstone at night in my shrimp tank, as my plant mass has increased to jungle proportions. With higher temps and nutrients, O2 can be scarce..especially at night. I run my shrimp tank at a lower temp~low 70's.


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## chikit2370 (Sep 17, 2008)

I've had that problem before when my small batch of 6-7 Cherry shrimp starting to die off. Then after all my shrimp died, I bought a new batch of 20 shrimp for my aquarium. Same set-up, but with a fan added to cool the tank. Maybe the O2 level has something to do with it, now with added surface agitation my O2 level at night is ok.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

chikit2370 said:


> I've had that problem before when my small batch of 6-7 Cherry shrimp starting to die off. Then after all my shrimp died, I bought a new batch of 20 shrimp for my aquarium. Same set-up, but with a fan added to cool the tank. Maybe the O2 level has something to do with it, now with added surface agitation my O2 level at night is ok.


 
What if I move the spray bar up higher - above the water line? Would that work instead of putting an airstone into the tank?

Note: I only found 1 death this morning - a great improvement!

Here's the shrimp tank that I am having problems with ....


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## bulrush (May 7, 2007)

Since you have cyclops, that means your water is VERY GOOD. And since the RCS are new, and all other parameters are fine, I think your acclimation procedure was not good. Please describe how you acclimated the new RCS. 

Acclimating new shrimp to your tank is more than just floating the bag in the water for 10 minutes. This only equalizes temperature between the bag and the tank. Inverts must get used to other parameters in the tank such as pH and nitrates. If it is done slowly you will have success.

Your nitrates are not a problem. I have RCS in 3 different tanks all with nitrates of 40-80 and I only find one dead body per month. Some tanks are 78F all day and night, and some get down to 68F at night.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

60 of the rcs came from a new sorce and I floated the bag for 20 minutes then added water and floated for another 20 minutes. Added more water and floated for another 20 minutes and then fished them out. The other 92 came from my 10 gal and I did just one float and add water and float and then dumped them in. Both tanks had the same params. 
I'm hopeing that my problems are solved since I had only one death this morning. Time will tell. My other tank (55gal) has snowball shrimps in them and the nitrate is at 40ppm and the shrimps are all saddled and no deaths.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

UPDATE: It's been a couple of weeks and there have been no deaths :bounce:
I have totally switched over to Prime and am double dosing the tanks when I do a water change. The shrimps seem to be happy, several more rcs have become saddled (none berried yet) and the one tiger that was berried - still is. I have gone back to feeding them HBH Crab & Lobster Bites. I have ordered the Shirakura shrimp food from Gabe and will be switching over to it when it comes in.
Thanks everyone for all your help!


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## zoologist101 (Oct 4, 2008)

CRS are the most fussy of all my shrimps, so I have to be extra careful with them.
I use 'Tetra AquaSafe' to remove all the nasty stuff from tap water during water changes. Because it is so expensive, I only use half the recommended dose – but I fill a bucket of water 24 hours early and aerate it well before use. This removes almost all of the chlorine before you even start, allowing the additive to expend it's full strength on any chloramine and heavy metals.  


For feeding (of anything) always vary the diet. Little and often is the golden rule. I feed a tiny amount three times a day, although a slightly larger amount once a day is also OK. I use a pinch of flake food; a pinch of red astax; frozen invertebrate food; frozen green food; boiled spinach, a slice of cucumber; soaked beach leaves [there all the time]; and their absolute favorite – 'Ocean Nutrition Shrimp Wafers' [beware, fights can break out over the ownership of one of these little treasures..!]
It also helps if you have some harmless creatures in the tank to clear up any excess. I use MTS and freshwater bristle worms, and haven't had to clean my gravel/sand in five years.


If they breed well – you ain't doing much wrong...


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

zoologist101 said:


> CRS are the most fussy of all my shrimps, so I have to be extra careful with them.
> I use 'Tetra AquaSafe' to remove all the nasty stuff from tap water during water changes. Because it is so expensive, I only use half the recommended dose – but I fill a bucket of water 24 hours early and aerate it well before use. This removes almost all of the chlorine before you even start, allowing the additive to expend it's full strength on any chloramine and heavy metals.
> 
> 
> ...


 
what frozen green food do you use? and on the cucumber, do you cook it first or do you drop it in raw?


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## zoologist101 (Oct 4, 2008)

The frozen food I use is called Dutch Select, but only because that is the one my LFS keeps in stock.
The cucumber I just lob in raw. It floats for a while, but the shrimps get impatient and swim up to it. When there enough of them clinging to it, their weight sinks it to the bottom like a flying saucer coming in to land. Do cut the skin off first, nothing likes the skin, and you never know what sort of chemical has been sprayed on the surface.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks for the info....
I'll give it a try.


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

bulrush said:


> Since you have cyclops, that means your water is VERY GOOD. And since the RCS are new, and all other parameters are fine, I think your acclimation procedure was not good. Please describe how you acclimated the new RCS.
> 
> Acclimating new shrimp to your tank is more than just floating the bag in the water for 10 minutes. This only equalizes temperature between the bag and the tank. Inverts must get used to other parameters in the tank such as pH and nitrates. If it is done slowly you will have success.
> 
> Your nitrates are not a problem. I have RCS in 3 different tanks all with nitrates of 40-80 and I only find one dead body per month. Some tanks are 78F all day and night, and some get down to 68F at night.


I know you constantly claim nitrates of 80 is alright, but a vast majority of people FIND THIS UNTRUE. :icon_roll


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

Well, I have the problem again :angryfire Rcs dying - again.
Water prams are:

Temp 76 degrees
ammonia - 0
nitrite - 0
nitrate - 5
ph - 7.4
Kh - 4 dKH or 71.6 ppm

Saturday found 3 dead. did a 50% wc on Sunday (12 dead that day), 6 dead yesterday (monday), 50% wc monday night, 6 dead this morning - including one tiger.
I have stopped feeding them the crab bites and have switched over to Shirakura food. Feeding every other day. I do not use ferts in this tank anymore - stopped it in November, nor is there any co2 units. Nothing is going into the tank. Doing 50% wc everyweekend. Double dosing on Prime when doing the wc.
This is very fustrating. I finaly had several rcs that were berried and they all died before the eggs hatched. The only thing that I have not tried is using Purigen. I will be getting that later today and trying that out. I'm crossing my fingers and hopeing that this works!


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

cwilfinger said:


> Double dosing on Prime when doing the wc.


I think this is your problem, prime is very concentrated and it should be used in its recommended amount. Double dosing is overdosing and overdosing prime can cause deaths.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

^^^^agreed!


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

Do you think that purigen would help?


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

cwilfinger said:


> Do you think that purigen would help?


First try a good few wc over the course of a few days and dosing the regular recommended amount of prime instead.


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## markalot (Apr 8, 2007)

I've double dosed on Prime in my 20 gallon and have never had a loss of Red Cherry Shrimp (whatever the acronym is now).



> I have gone back to feeding them HBH Crab & Lobster Bites.


Seems to be the problem. Feed them algae wafers, Hikari is what I use. I've got them in 3 tanks and all are growing colonies.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

markalot said:


> I've double dosed on Prime in my 20 gallon and have never had a loss of Red Cherry Shrimp (whatever the acronym is now).


Why would you want to double dose on prime when the regular dose is all you really need?


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## Ebichua (May 13, 2008)

Heavily ODing on prime can and WILL kill your livestock. Prime requires good oxygenation when being used, hence why it is a bad conditioner for tanks with low to no water movement. And this is speaking for a regular dosage of prime. 

Now, DOUBLE dosing it would require even more aeration. This might be why you're seeing deaths...

ODing on prime by estimation is fine tough. I do it all the time. Although my tanks have good oxygenation. As long as it is roughly around what is suggested, you should be okay.


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## markalot (Apr 8, 2007)

During the winter months when my water contains more nasties I regularly double dose in all my tanks using a Python for the water change. 

Regardless of the merits of Prime and dosage I don't think it's the primary culprit.



> Prime requires good oxygenation when being used


Are you sure you're thinking the the right product? I've never heard this, which doesn't mean all that much ... just checking. 


The bottle directions are:

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html

_Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL). This removes approximately 0.8 mg/L ammonia, 1.2 mg/L chloramine, or 3.3 mg/L chlorine. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose._


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I think the required dose of prime changes depending if you add it to the tank or in a bucket first.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I asked Seachem directly how much Prime would be considered a dangerous level OD, and they said 5x the recommended dosage.

I'd try some Purigen in the filter and see if it makes a difference.

Have you ever used any copper-containing medications in your tank, or was your tank used before you got it? If it's a new tank, did you clean your tank out well before setting it up, in case it had gotten some pesticides or other chemicals in the tank in the warehouse or store before you bought it?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Could it be some kind of parasitic or bad bacterial outbreak?? Some of these things work at a microscopic level, so normal water tests could still be normal and not tell you anything. The only way you would know for sure it a shrimp autopsy, microscopic examination and knowledge of what to look for specifically. A pathogen or bad bacteria, could have been introduced by infested plants or shrimps. The food could also be contaminated from the source/factory where it was produced and or packed. Even if the chances are low, it would not be unheard of to get a bad batch of food and not even know it until you start seeing mysterious fish/shrimp deaths. In my 10 gallon with good aeration, ideal water parameters, weekly water changes, underfeeding, good tank maitnenance practice, stable water temperature, purigen and even a UV sterilizer to boot, my fish still dropped like flies. Through the process of elimination, I found that the only thing that could account for the mysterious deaths was the food. I think the same is possible with shrimp. I think switching to another food may be worth a try. Did you get your shrimp from a reputable supplier. Perhaps, you get shrimp that were ill and whatever was making them sick spread to the others. We all know how fish and shrimp will feed off the dead carcasses of other dead shrimp and fish and sometimes the particular pathogen may even go waterborne and wipe out whole populations. Looks like you have a mystery on your hands that will require a process of elimination to try and figure out where the problem lies. Good luck.


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## Ebichua (May 13, 2008)

markalot said:


> During the winter months when my water contains more nasties I regularly double dose in all my tanks using a Python for the water change.
> 
> Regardless of the merits of Prime and dosage I don't think it's the primary culprit.
> 
> ...


Yes, I am thinking of the right product. A local fish store stopped carrying it and I asked why. The owner told me that they had too many people coming in, saying prime killed their fish, yada yada yada. So they stopped carrying the products and explained to me how prime works (oxygenation and stuff). Which is why he recommended that I use other conditioners. Of course, I didn't listen to the latter part of his story, since I still use prime, but I do keep a mental note in my head to not OD too much, especially if it's going into a low motion tank.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

This tank has been going since Sept. I started adding shrimps to the tank around 10-9-08. Last batch was added on 11-02-08. Around 11-18-08 I had my first outbreak of deaths. It lasted about a week and then nothing since then until now. I lost a total of 22 shrimps that time.
I added 4 tiger shrimps from a member on this forum (3 of them arrived dead - should have been a total of 7) on 12-31-08. I also added some frogbit and rrf plants that came in the same day but they were placed in qt for 5 days before adding ( added saturday the 3rd). Deaths were discovered in the morning before plants were added so that rules out the plants. The shrimps were added on the 31st and by Saturday I had my first round of deaths, so I do not think that the shrimps are the problem either, unless whatever it is, takes 3 days to start killing the shrimps. By the way, I had my first tiger death, yesterday and it was an adult that had been in my tank since 10-09. 
I've done a 50% wc change today and only added the exact amount of Prime that the bottle suggests. Btw, I use the Python method of doing the wc.
I picked up a package of Purigen and will add a hob filter to deal with the Purigen packet (I'm too lazy to disconnect all the hoses and yank out the Eheim filter to place the Purigen into :redface. I had stopped feeding them the HBH Crab & Lobster bites about a week before Christmas and had switched the shrimps over to Shirakura CRS shrimp food that I got from Gabe. I do have a big hair algae problem in the tank and a very very small problem of clado (most of that is gone now).
I found 3 more deaths this evening. I have lost 30 shrimps so far this month.

I had bought a gh and kh testing kit and the gh is 9 or 161.1ppm and the kh is at 5 or 89.5 ppm - this was taken after this most recent wc. I do not know if this has any berring on my problems but I doubt it because all my other tanks are the same and my yellows and snowballs are doing just fine. The tank was tested for copper before I added the shrimps, And I have tested it again earlier today and both times it comes up with 0 copper. I do not know what else I should test for, or if there is anything else I should be trying to do.....


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

cwilfinger said:


> ..I use the *Python method of doing the wc*...


Okay, perhaps this has nothing to do with what is happening but I will throw it out there anyway. This is one of those contraptions that hooks up to your tap water faucet and you use it to replace water quickly when you do water changes? Is that right? I thought of getting one of these as I was tired of lugging buckets around. Then I kept reading posts of people who seem to be using such a water change system to do water changes, who were having heavy mysterious fish losses so I decided not to go that route. Like I said, it may be nothing. I decided to stick to the old fashioned way of letting my decholorinated water sit in buckets for a week prior to water changes. I never had issues with fish or shrimp deaths doing this. As part of your problem solving why not try letting replacement water sit in buckets for at least 24 hours before the water changes and giving the Python a rest, just to see what happens. What have you got to lose.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

How often do you clean your filter?

I had a massive RCS die-off a few weeks ago (lost half the total population, and all of my berried females :icon_cry and it turns out the issue was a dirty sponge prefilter. Once I'd given that a good clean I had no more deaths.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> How often do you clean your filter?
> 
> I had a massive RCS die-off a few weeks ago (lost half the total population, and all of my berried females :icon_cry and it turns out the issue was a dirty sponge prefilter. Once I'd given that a good clean I had no more deaths.


I have an Eheim 2215 canister filter on the tank and it was last cleaned 11-08 - about 2 months ago.




Homer_Simpson said:


> Okay, perhaps this has nothing to do with what is happening but I will throw it out there anyway. This is one of those contraptions that hooks up to your tap water faucet and you use it to replace water quickly when you do water changes? Is that right? I thought of getting one of these as I was tired of lugging buckets around. Then I kept reading posts of people who seem to be using such a water change system to do water changes, who were having heavy mysterious fish losses so I decided not to go that route. Like I said, it may be nothing. I decided to stick to the old fashioned way of letting my decholorinated water sit in buckets for a week prior to water changes. I never had issues with fish or shrimp deaths doing this. As part of your problem solving why not try letting replacement water sit in buckets for at least 24 hours before the water changes and giving the Python a rest, just to see what happens. What have you got to lose.


 
Yes, it is one of those contraptions that hooks up to your tap water faucet and you use it to replace water quickly when you do water changes. I use to lug gallon size jugs back and forth every Sunday. It was a PITA and took me FOREVER to do it! Now it takes me less than 10 minutes to hook-up, drain, refill, and disconnect. I had gotten the Python in November during the time of the last batch of deaths. The reason is-when using Prime, you can treat 10 gallons at a time but not individual gallons. That is why I got the Python.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Okay, perhaps this has nothing to do with what is happening but I will throw it out there anyway. This is one of those contraptions that hooks up to your tap water faucet and you use it to replace water quickly when you do water changes? Is that right? I thought of getting one of these as I was tired of lugging buckets around. Then I kept reading posts of people who seem to be using such a water change system to do water changes, who were having heavy mysterious fish losses so I decided not to go that route. Like I said, it may be nothing. I decided to stick to the old fashioned way of letting my decholorinated water sit in buckets for a week prior to water changes. I never had issues with fish or shrimp deaths doing this. As part of your problem solving why not try letting replacement water sit in buckets for at least 24 hours before the water changes and giving the Python a rest, just to see what happens. What have you got to lose.


I change about 25% of my 29 gallon RCS tank once a month and use the hose. I have never had an issue with die off yet and our water is rock hard here in AZ.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Yeah, but you are comparing water state to state. One water company might use more chlorine than another, it has nothing to do with hardness. You are hooking a hose up to your faucet. This means you are not making sure the water is the same temperature before it enters the tank. And so too at some point, there is chlorinated water going into the tank. Then you add Prime, and it's supposed to make everything better? The tank inhabitants have already been exposed to a different temp & chlorine..sounds risky to me.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I just want to clarify some things about using a Python. 

It is possible to perfectly match tank temperature and temperature from the tap. You simply run water through while in 'suction mode' with a thermometer underneath. You also add Prime _before_ you fill, for the volume of the entire tank, not just the amount of water changed. This is an approved method of use by Seachem. 

While I do not keep shrimp, I have processed 50% water changes every week for the last three years in this manner without issue.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

I still don't like it. So if it is done as you say, you are then exposing them to an overdose of Prime, until the tank fills. It is winter, and in most places water from the tap is not going to be in the temperature range of most shrimp or fish tanks. And who uses the method with the thermometer? I bet most people do not. What do you do if the water is the wrong temp? How would you correct it?
Do you add hot water? Aren't most hot water pipes made from copper? The thing is we are talking shrimp deaths here. And shrimp are much more sensitive than fish.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

You can dislike it, we don't have to agree, I just wanted to clarify the usage. 

It isn't an overdose of Prime according to Seachem to dose for the tank volume. One can use significantly more for purposes of detoxification. 

I use an instant-read digital thermometer and I adjust the hot and cold water taps until the temperature matches, that is the proper procedure. I accept that, as with everything, there are plenty of people that do things incorrectly for whatever reason. I also recognize that many shrimp keepers refuse to use hot water out of fear of copper contamination.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

How about for the sake of argument, try using a different method to see if the deaths stop. Obviously something is not right, if they keep dying. How about for S+G's, try using the bucket method. Making sure the temp is matched, and appropriate amount of dechlor is used. Or as Homer does, let the water sit open for a day or so. Or if lugging buckets is beyond what you want to do, and takes too much time, get a trash can with wheels like I use for my sw tank. Fill it, temp it, dechlor it, then use a small powerhead to add it to the tank.
It makes no sense to me to keep doing what clwilfingers is doing, if it's _not_ working. I love Seachem products , but let's remember they are trying to sell the product too. It wouldn't do them much good if they told people they couldn't use their pythons. Obviously, some people think they are great. I have never been a fan. I like a closer control on what goes in my tank. I have spent way too much money on the fish & critters I keep to risk their lives because I want my water changes to happen faster. But that's me.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

imeridian said:


> I just want to clarify some things about using a Python.
> 
> It is possible to perfectly match tank temperature and temperature from the tap. You simply run water through while in 'suction mode' with a thermometer underneath. You also add Prime _before_ you fill, for the volume of the entire tank, not just the amount of water changed. This is an approved method of use by Seachem.
> 
> While I do not keep shrimp, I have processed 50% water changes every week for the last three years in this manner without issue.


First problem is we have a water softener, and lfs said I should use water that does not go through the softener. This means using an outside spigot, which means no hot water to mix with it.

Second problem is I thought using hot tap water was a bad idea because of copper leaching off the pipes, although I have never actually measured it.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

waterfaller1 said:


> Yeah, but you are comparing water state to state. One water company might use more chlorine than another, it has nothing to do with hardness.


I understand that. I was simply stating that I have infact used a python with no ill effects for quite some time on a shrimp tank.


waterfaller1 said:


> You are hooking a hose up to your faucet. This means you are not making sure the water is the same temperature before it enters the tank.


No, actually I hook it up to my hose outside.


waterfaller1 said:


> And so too at some point, there is chlorinated water going into the tank. Then you add Prime, and it's supposed to make everything better? The tank inhabitants have already been exposed to a different temp & chlorine..sounds risky to me.


And it very well could be risky. But, I have been doing this for quite some time and my shrimp are not dying. They are in fact quite prolific and have went from probably 30-40 to well over 300. I generally add the prime before I start to refill my tanks.

I have not had an issue ever in double and even triple dosing Prime. I have also not had an issue in not using enough or any if I happened to be out and not noticed before I started my water change. Now I am NOT recommending by any means not using some dechlor product.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

It really matters not what works for you, and what works for me or anyone else. We can argue methods all day long.We know that what works for some, does not work for others....yada,yada.
The question is, why are Cwilfinger's shrimp dying?
It can only be one or several things at once.

> there is a disease amongst his shrimp
> he has faulty equipment, as in a pump or powerhead,or heater maybe that is leaking stray voltage.
> something is killing them, as in another creature in the tank.
> something is wrong with his water for keeping shrimp, or his method of delivery of the water.
> he is adding something to the tank in the wrong dosage, or something is in the food that is killing them.
> some how copper has at some point gotten into the tank.
>there is a parameter off, PH or temp, or high NO2 or NO3, or something of this nature.
> someone is sneaking in and killing them when he's not home.{J/K, but you get my point?}
As Homer said, what have you got to lose by trying a different method?
To quote a night time talk show host "how's that workin' for ya?"


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

I am not necessarily suggesting that everyone who uses the Python water change setup is going to have problems. I have just read too many posts on this and other forums, where people who were experiencing mysterious shrimp and fish deaths, did some trial and error to try to discover what it was that they were doing differently or had changed before the deaths started. In quite a few cases, people posted that the deaths started happening when they switched to the python water change type setup. It is quite possible that they were not doing this correctly with respect to ensuring matching of water temperature and sufficient dechlorinator.

Now, having said that it is interesting to note that aging water has the effect of "dissaptating dissolved gases that might otherwise be harmful to fish." 
Source: http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/watercare/a/waterchanges.htm
And yes, I know that aging does not neutralize chloromines and prime will neutralize chlorine and chloromines. I am talking about aging water treated with Prime. Who is to say that aging water does not have benefits beyond just neutralizing chlorine and ensuring proper replacement water temperature? Fish and shrimp may be the best judge of any additional benefits; we are talking about things at a molecular level that we cannot always see. Perhaps, that is why some folks are having success using Seachem Purigen to resolve such deaths; it is working at a molecular leve to remove things which would not normally be removed. On a related note, I am surprised that my fish have survived in my tap water. I googled some of the chemicals that are put in my tap water as per my city's tap water parameters, and it was scary. Talk of possible carcinogenic nature of some of the chemicals and fact that safe levels had not really been established. 

And if that is true and if fish could be effected, it would even be more so for shrimp that as waterfaller1 has correctly indicated are far more sensitive to minute changes in water than fish. 

I have only kept planted tanks for 2 years but have successfully kept fish for over 8 years using the age replacement water in bucket method for weekly water changes and have never suffered any mysterious fish deaths at that time. So, if it ain't broke why change it.

I also agree with waterfaller1, this is all about troubleshooting through the process of elimination to track down what the o/p mysterious shirmp deaths may be due to. For that purpose there should be no exclusions as there is really nothing to be gained by doing so. To be sure, I say give the python a rest and just try the bucket replacement again just to discount that is not the issue.

I also agree with Lauraleellbb who has direct experience with the same types of shrimp deaths confronting the O/P. Even if your media is only 2 months old, really check it out. I am amazed everytime I do weekly water changes that there is so much debris in my filter media, that if not cleaned weekly as I have observed tends to severly restrict flow. Perhaps connecting a dohickey like this flow control meter to your cannister filter may be able to alert you quickly when flow is substantially reduced.
http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp18277/si1382855/cl0/tomflowmeter


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

I have a nylon stocking over the intake of my Eheim so there should not be any debris in the canister.
When I use the Python, I match the temp of the water comming out of the faucet before I start suctioning the tank.
I had 8 more deaths this morning so I placed the HOB filter onto the tank and added the Purigen to it. I also now have airation by adding the HOB so hopefully one or both of these will solve my problems. If not, then I will have to go back to the drawing board. 
It is very fustrating because I can't see the cause, so I have no way of knowing how to fix it. Besides, I really LOVE shrimp! I think that they are really really cool. All my tanks are shrimp tanks except for one - I had to appease the rest of the family by having one with fish in it. But if I had my way, it be another shrimp tank :hihi:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I still think you need to clean your filter, and give your biomedia a good rinse. It had been less than a month since I last cleaned that sponge prefilter...


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

You sort of have to take it step by step so you can tell what's the problem. One thing about taking advice from multiple people is that it can sometimes easily confuse you and you end up stepping all over the place and getting nowhere.

Glad you're still in the shrimping business with a good attitude. Hope you find the solution. 

I have a similar problem, but my deaths aren't inmass like yours.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

it could be some contaminants coming from your water municipal as well.. For instance, there was a flood recently on the mississippi and toxic waste of some sort got into the drinking water. Not enough to kill people but maybe enough to kill shrimps.. check the news and call your city water station.

I'd run your water through charcoal.
Cherries are like roaches, no offense ... Very hard to kill unless something is terribly wrong.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

My tank is starting to look pretty empty with that many gone....
One thing for sure, my water is definitely looking "polished". I mean, my water was clean looking but putting the Purigen onto the tank...I just seems to be even cleaner looking. 
There are no deaths this afternoon and none of the shrimps are acting funny. Hopefully whatever the problem was - it has run it's course. We will see by tomorrow morning. Lets keep our fingers crossed.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

mistergreen said:


> I'd run your water through charcoal.
> Cherries are like roaches, no offense ... Very hard to kill unless something is terribly wrong.


I had put the HOB filter on the tank and it has charcoal in it so hopefully that will work.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

mistergreen said:


> I'd run your water through charcoal.
> *Cherries are like roaches, no offense* ... Very hard to kill unless something is terribly wrong.


Hey, feel free to send me some of those pesty cherry shrimps that's overrunning your house, I won't mind, won't mind at all. Always there to help you out, because I'm honorable like that.


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## markalot (Apr 8, 2007)

Feed them algae wafers only, see what happens. I use the dreaded Python, I use a double dose of Prime, I have shrimp coming out my ears. 

Algae wafers for the shrimp, no fancy foods, see what happens. As I indicated in the post that seemed to distract everyone, you said everything was fine, you changed foods, then the die off returned. 

Algae Wafers.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Natty said:


> Hey, feel free to send me some of those pesty cherry shrimps that's overrunning your house, I won't mind, won't mind at all. Always there to help you out, because I'm honorable like that.


sure no problem.. just don't kill them ok?


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## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

Wow this has whole thread has so much info in it!

I had purchasec some ghost shrimp about a couple months ago and the last one of those 8 died last week during a rescape. And about 2 weeks maybe I bought 4 cherry shrimp and I have only one left. I have some mollys and neons and moly fry all doing wonderful! But I need to be more diligent with my water changes and check my water parimeters more often as I have a new big batch of rcs coming next week! 

When I acclimate them is it a bad idea to put any of the water they arive in into the tank? When I acclimate them i'll be adding a little of my tank water every so often and letting them sit for quite some time. Then I will just net them gently an add them to my tank. Cause it's probably not the best idea I guess to let the shipping water into the tank.

I only have a 20 gal tank so when I do water changes I use a couple old jugs and turn the tap to about the same temp as the tank and add the dechlorinator to each jug before filling and empy it to the tank as the other jug fills. Does't take long to do a 25% change for me.

Please let me know if you think there's anything more I should be doing so I don't lose any shrimp.

This post has been great for me learning! Thanks


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

mistergreen said:


> Cherries are like roaches, no offense ... Very hard to kill unless something is terribly wrong.





> sure no problem.. just don't kill them ok?


What are you trying to say....

I won't kill them...intentionally....


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Tetras generally go after shrimp CKJ. Make life a little easier for yourself and pick up a couple 5 gal buckets with lids from HD or lowes,or some kind of hardware/home store. I never put shipping water in my tank, but water shrimp comes in would be safer than water fish comes in. {the latter could have copper}


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## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

I don't mind the gallon jugs way of doing water changes doesn't take me that long with just a 20gal. That way to I can target better where i'm pouring the water so as not to disturb the plants and substrate.

I will check for copper though they lived for a while so I didn't think copper was the issue. But i'll check to be safe.

I guess i've been lucky with the neons and having so many plants that my neons never even chased the shrimp or even the molly fry!

Thanks for the great advice!

lol

Cindy


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

CKJ said:


> When I acclimate them is it a bad idea to put any of the water they arive in into the tank?


 
I never dump the shipping water into the tank - no matter if it is shrimp or fish. You never know if the shipping water has parisites like free swimming ich or any other microscopic things. If the "pets" were shipped to you in the mail - the water will more likely have a higher concentration of ammonia, and you do not want to add that to your existing tank either.

Just an update, It looks like tomorrow will be an Eheim cleaning day . 

More shrimp were found dead - bringing the total so far today to 11. 

I've lost 41 shrimps since saturday:angryfire


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## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

OMG I feel so bad for you losing so many so quick!!! So sorry this is happening to you and I hope you find your problem very soon! 

Thanks for posting on this so other can learn like me!

Take care!

Cindy


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

CKJ said:


> *I had purchasec some ghost shrimp about a couple months ago and the last one of those 8 died last week during a rescape. And about 2 weeks maybe I bought 4 cherry shrimp and I have only one left.*


Sorry to get off topic, but have you thought of trying Amano Shrimp?? I have not had a lot of luck with ghost shrimp, but I have to tell you Amano Shrimp really surprised me. I was ready to tear a 10 gallon down because all my fish died and I could not figure out why. After a lot of trial and error, I finally came to the conclusion that it was likely bad feed and the thing that sort of tipped me off is that they all displayed dropsy like symptoms before they died, which would suggest a possible internal bacterial infection. It was a too little too late. It was not water quality as the water parameters tested normal every month, water changes were done weekly, a UV sterilizer was running and filter media cleaned periodically. The funny thing was that I even treated the tank with Erythromycin when the death outbreak happened but of course it did not make a difference because the source of the outbreak(bad feed) was still there and I kept feeding them same food not realizing that this is what was likely causing the infections.

After my last fish death, just for the heck of it I acclimtized(drip acclimitization) 5 Amano Shrimp and put them in the tank. It has been almost 6 months, not one Amano Shrimp death and believe it or not they actually doubled in size. 

I still believe you have to ensure that your water parameters are okay before you put them in and keep up with water changes, and filter maintenance.


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## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

I already have paid for a batch of rcs and they should be here some time next week!

I will deffinately apply what i've learned here to hopefully be able to keep the rcs happy and healthy!

I'll keep you all posted!


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

If this was my tank and those were my shrimp I'd start to take more drastic action. 

Providing a purified water is a relatively easy first step. I would use RO/DI and reconstitute it to correspond to the parameters of your normal water source and then process a series of water changes in order to rid the tank of any possible contamination. 

If the deaths continue you have at least ruled out a number of factors.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

I do not have a RO/DI system and at the moment it is out of the question money wise. Otherwise I would be using that water instead of tap water. 
Food was stopped on Saturday when the first deaths were discovered. But I honestly do not think that it is the food. 
I will be cleaning out the Eheim to rule out that posibility, and I will be taking off the UV sterlizer off of my 55 gal fish only tank tomorrow and putting it onto the shrimp tank. Maybe that would kill any bacteria or free swimming parisites - if there are any in the tank...


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I'm only suggesting what I would do if I were in your shoes. 

I have a RO/DI system so that would be easier for me, but I'm not suggesting that you would need to purchase one. 

Many LFS will sell RO by the gallon, supermarkets typically have RO units available for customers to fill their gallon jugs, barring all of that you could purchase gallons of distilled water. I only mention these as options.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Having 5gal jugs of bottled RO/DI water delivered actually may not be all that expensive... at least, it's something to look into if nothing else works.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

imeridian said:


> I'm only suggesting what I would do if I were in your shoes.
> 
> I have a RO/DI system so that would be easier for me, but I'm not suggesting that you would need to purchase one.
> 
> Many LFS will sell RO by the gallon, supermarkets typically have RO units available for customers to fill their gallon jugs, barring all of that you could purchase gallons of distilled water. I only mention these as options.


 
Yes, I know that you were just suggesting it and I thank you for the idea. It is a great idea - however, it will not help me at this time. I have not found a lfs that carries RO water either. Believe me, I really want a RO/DI system so that I can have softer water for my tigers and I would like to get CRS also.

Update - Only one found dead this morning. Now I do not know if this is someone that I over looked yesterday or if he is one that has passed away over night.  If I see anymore today, then I still have a problem.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Just curious what is the temperature and ph of your tank. Have you tested ammonia levels with the deaths going on?? You are almost in a catch 22 situation depending on the tank temp and ph. Ammonia tends to take a toxic form at higher temperature and ph levels. So if your shrimp are dieing amass and your ph is high and temp high, you are likely getting ammonia spikes from undiscovered shrimp deaths even if it only one here or there that is not helping the problem. If you have another tank and small filter, it may not be a bad idea to use seeded media from another tank and run that and or possibly do a few more water changes. I am not sure if Seachem Prime would sufficiently on its own detoxify the ammonia.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> Having 5gal jugs of bottled RO/DI water delivered actually may not be all that expensive... at least, it's something to look into if nothing else works.


Around here it is fairly cheap. About $5 a jug delivered or .25 a gallon to fill them yourself at one of many locations.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

I would not trust grocery store machines, check the TDS. Regardless whether or not the tag says 'serviced'. I have had customers with problems after using them. There has to be a LFS in your area that specializes in saltwater reef tanks, corals, etc. That is what you are looking for. Not necessarily a fw store. And you want RO water, not RO/DI.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

Temp is a constant 76 degrees. Ph is a constant 7.4. Tested ammonia this morning and it was .25 so I did another 50% wc. Found another 9 dead this afternoon. And a few more that are not looking too good. I cleaned the Eheim. Pads were dirty but other than that it looked good. I don't think that the Eheim was the problem. I'll be throwing the UV sterlizer onto this tank later today. This is getting ridiculous, and it is very, very fustrating. Over 50 dead now and I'm still nowhere near to solving this problem.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Aside from changing water with reconstituted RO/DI, I think it's time for some good old fashioned granular activated carbon, given the ammonia it's also a good idea to include some zeolite. Marineland sells this combination under the name "Diamond Blend." They call their zeolite "White Diamond." 

While I use and like Purigen, it doesn't have the same chemical adsorbency that GAC does. If there is some sort of contamination in your source water, the changes with it only will worsen the problem. Having something in there that will adsorb chemicals in addition to organics seems like a very good idea given the uncertain nature of the problem.

There is no conceivable reason to not use RO/DI in favor of simply RO if you're reconstituting it as I recommended. The deionizing process will further purify the water, which is the goal of using it in the first place.


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## markalot (Apr 8, 2007)

> Temp is a constant 76 degrees. Ph is a constant 7.4. Tested ammonia this morning and it was .25 so I did another 50% wc.


Why isn't your biological filter working? I'm not familiar with canister filters but do they have a special pad that you do NOT replace that the bacteria lives on?

There is something about this tank that either you aren't telling us -or- you don't think is important but in reality is. An Ammonia reading of .25 on a hobby test kit is really quite high and explains the deaths.

Honestly you are getting a lot of advice here that is probably not necessary. Odds are your tap water is fine but you have filtration problems that is causing the tank to cycle again. 

Do not add carbon or zeolite, water changes are enough to keep the ammonia down. You need to re-build your biological filter to get rid of the ammonia and adding an ammonia remover is going to exacerbate the problem by starving the ammonia eating bacteria and keeping the bacteria colony too small to handle the job. 

Change 50% of the water whenever you get a positive reading for ammonia, and keep an eye out for a nitrite spike.

Make sure you have a nice place for your beneficial bacteria to live, this should be a pad or bio balls or ceramic noodles located after the filter pad. These should almost never be cleaned or replaced.

Carbon is not usually needed, but you need to make sure the filter pad stays fairly clean in order to keep water flow up. These pads should be cleaned in old tank water or dechlorinated water. It can be ok to replace these pads if you're sure you have a decent area for the beneficial bacteria to live. Bacteria lives where it wants to live, not necessarily where we want it to live. 

Oh, and I'll mention it again, feed your shrimp a high quality algae wafer, Hikari works well for me, so does http://www.almostnaturaltropicalfishfood.com/

Apologies for going over the basics, but sometimes we all miss stuff.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Although I am not suggesting that your suggestions are not good to help with the issue, I am not convinced that his biological filter is not working, What has happened is that due to mass deaths of shrimp and the possiblity of undiscovered dead shrimp bodies, his water parameters have been thrown out of wack, and he is tank is likely undergoing a mini-cylce. It is a catch 22, shrimp do not tolerate toxic ammonia at even lower levels and are generally more intolerant of a "mini-cycling" tank than fish.

This is like the "what came first chicken or egg debate." Did his shrimp die amass because his biological filter failed or did his biological filter fail to due massive fish deaths leading to even more deaths and further adding to the problem. And was it the cause of the initial deaths due to failed biological filter. How does that happen especially in a heavily planted tank? Unless the OP increased stocking levels beyond acceptable levels and greatly reduced plant density to little or none(lol, he would have had to really have gone overkill on plant trimming), which I don't believe he did. The suggestions others posted are not unnecessary - any number of things or even possible combination could have sparked the deaths. The only sure way to know to by trial and error until the true cause can be isolated.


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## markalot (Apr 8, 2007)

> How does that happen especially in a heavily planted tank?


Perhaps the tank is not that heavily planted? It's easy to mistake moderately planted for heavily, I know I did. Always good to go back to the basics and review each step just to be sure. I agree that mass die off might be the issue if the bodies are not removed, so would mass addition of a lot of livestock.

A basic misunderstanding of biological filtration can lead to all sorts of problems, and I don't mean that as an insult, just something we should always review.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

markalot said:


> Perhaps the tank is not that heavily planted? It's easy to mistake moderately planted for heavily, I know I did. Always good to go back to the basics and review each step just to be sure. I agree that mass die off might be the issue if the bodies are not removed, so would mass addition of a lot of livestock.
> 
> A basic misunderstanding of biological filtration can lead to all sorts of problems, and I don't mean that as an insult, just something we should always review.


Agreed and understand and Fwiw, I was not disputing your suggestions. I think that they are excellent suggestions.

For the original OP if you are still reading this, there may still be a way to salvage the shrimp you have and possibly quickly eliminate any cause(s) that may be rooted in the tank of origin. Set up a quarantine tank with a heavily seeded biofilter media, preferablly from another tank. Transfer some or all of the shrimp to the quarantine tank and still feed them. Keep an eye on them and see if they pull through. I know this seems drastic but if you are running out of options and your shrimp are still dieing, it may be worth trying to save what you have left.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

I test for ammonia every week and it has always been 0. This last testing that I had done, was the first time since I first cycled the tank where it showed a different reading other than 0. Today the ammonia is reading 0 along with nitrite. In my Eheim I do have ceramic rings and also lava rocks for the bacteria to cling to. I only replaced the pads yesterday and ditched the carbon that I had in it and replaced that with the carbon pads that the Eheim offers. I think that the reason behind the ammonia showing .25 was because I found several dead ones yesterday in the back of the tank in my "jungle" there. Also because of the mass deaths that my tank saw (over 50 to date). My tank is heavily planted - no open spaces on the substrait to plant anymore plants. I also have floating plants in there. I had 20 tiger shrimps and about 175 cherries in the tank. The measurements of the tank is 20w x 18L x 25h. Roughly 35-40 gal tank. I don't think that it was over crowded considering that you can keep 200 shrimps in a 10 gal tank.
The last time that shrimp were added to the tank was on 12/31 and they were 4 tigers, and as for the plants, I have only been adding floating plants and they are always placed in qt for about a week and then I pick through them and only take the healthy ones. I rinse them very well to get any snail eggs off of them and anything else that would attach themselves to floating plants. So, the last time plants were added was last Saturday - after several deaths were discovered and before that was a week before Christmas.

Update - Eheim cleaned yesterday and UV Sterlizer placed on tank yesterday. No deaths so far today :bounce:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

How're the shrimp?


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

I had typed up this long posting and for some reason, it didn't post. Oh well...
I'm very fustrated at this time. One death yesterday, another 3 today so far and one not acting/looking good.
Water params were checked again this morning and everthing is fine - ammonia-0, nitrite-0, nitrate-5, ph-7.4, temp fell to 72 degrees because I forgot to plug in the heater yesterday - but still well within their range.
Eheim was cleaned yesterday with all new pads added. UV Sterlizer was added to the tank and is up and running. I have added a HOB filter with Purigen in it. I've been doing wc everday or everyother day with the correct amount of Prime added. I've tested for copper and it came out negitive. What more can I do for these little guys? They look fine and act fine and then the next time I look, their inners are white and they are swimming upside down with their feet in the air. Then they eventually find their way to the ground and slowly die there.
UV Sterlizer would have killed any free swimming parasites (the bulb in it is only 3 months old)... I'm not seeing any white spots besides their heads like someone suggested the last time I had problems. But their heads are very small.....
I've added 4 tigers 3 days before the problems started... I was suppose to get 7 but 3 died enroute to me. Prior to that, the last time I added shrimp to the tank was on 11/20. I've added a few floating plants to the tank. They were all placed in QT for a week and then rinse very well under tap water to remove snail eggs and lesser duckweed (I hate that suff - too small and hard to get rid of). No ferts or other chemicals were added to the tank except for Prime during wc.
I do not know what more to do for these little ones or what other test I should be running. I'm at a total loss here...


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

My tank as of today....










Closer view - notice the lack of shrimps visible :icon_cry:


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

You can move them all over to filtered or RO/DI water for the time being and think about it.

I think at this point, you should salvage what you can and fingure it out while the shrimps are in a safer spot. No use waiting to figure it out and loose the rest.

I know how you feel though, keeping shrimps can be a very rewarding task, but at times its very depressing and frustrating. Just wanted you to know that some of us have been there so you're definately not alone.

Really makes you want to go


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## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

Love your tank!!!! Looks very nice!

I could definately see how easy it could be to miss fishing out a dead shrimp though. I hope things turn around for you real soon.

Is it possible that the tigers had a disease that's still running through this tank?

Take care!


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

The only tank that I can put them in is the 55 gal that is at the bottom of my signature (altho it is quite grown out and more of a messy jungle than the pic shows). But the downfall to that option is that there are 14 full grown swordtail/mollies, 2 anglefishs, 1 male betta, and a black neon tetra, and 4 ottos. The swordtails and betta do a LOT of rummaging though the plants in the tank looking for food and stuff. The shrimps would not survive in that tank. Even my amanos are always in hiding and they are 2-3 inches in length! 
I guess that I could catch a few and place them in a breeder netting thingy in that tank. Question - How many would be able to fit in a breeder'e net without being over crowded?


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

CKJ said:


> Love your tank!!!! Looks very nice!
> 
> I could definately see how easy it could be to miss fishing out a dead shrimp though. I hope things turn around for you real soon.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks, I think that it is an overrun jungle and a mess! LOL - definitely would not win any aquascaping prizes! 
I don't think that the tigers that were recently placed into the tank had any diseases because they came from someone on this forum and I have not heard of anyone having trouble with her shrimps. Nor have I heard of her having trouble with her tigers dieing...


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## markalot (Apr 8, 2007)

Nice looking tank ... yep, I'd say that was heavily planted. 

Sorry but I'm out of ideas. 

The shrimp can survive a betta and others if there is enough moss cover. My primary colony lives with 4 Cherry barbs, 6 glolight tetras, and a male betta. There are the occasional casualties (meals) but the colony is expanding / stable.


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

Did you replace all your filter media at once? Your tank may go through a mini cycle becouse if you did. But since that seemed pretty recent it would not be the cause of death from a while ago, it will cause problems now though.
I've read through your posts but have not seen a test done on your phosphate levels. If I missed it oops. But high levels of phosphate can cause problems. What have you done to increase oxygen levels? Swimming along the surface can be a sign of low oxygen.


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## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

OOPS! I didn't know you got your shrimp from here! I just ordered some shrimp from a different person here as well. Everybody here seems pretty reputable!


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

CKJ said:


> OOPS! I didn't know you got your shrimp from here! I just ordered some shrimp from a different person here as well. Everybody here seems pretty reputable!


All my shrimps are from here and I've had no problems so far except for now. Most of these shrimps are from August of '08 and have been very healthy up until now. Everyone that I have encountered have sold quality shrimps and plants on this forum. This forum is the best that I have found so far, everyone is very helpful here.



lf11 said:


> Did you replace all your filter media at once? Your tank may go through a mini cycle becouse if you did. But since that seemed pretty recent it would not be the cause of death from a while ago, it will cause problems now though.
> I've read through your posts but have not seen a test done on your phosphate levels. If I missed it oops. But high levels of phosphate can cause problems. What have you done to increase oxygen levels? Swimming along the surface can be a sign of low oxygen.


I did not replace any media - just the pads (well, I did throw out the carbon). I also did a quick rinse of everything but I did not scrub or wipe anything down inside the canister.
I have not done a phosphate test yet but will go out tomorrow (Sunday) and get one. Thanks for the suggestion. I did not know that phosphate could cause trouble.
As far as oxygen levels, I have a HOB that is agitating the surface and I have also raised the spray bar of the Eheim above the surface.
None of the shrimps have been swimming along the surface at all. I have only seen a few eating things off the leaves that are at the surface, but never just swimming or going up to the surface and then back down.


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## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

Yeah I had no idea you got your shrimp here or the thought of disease would have never entered my mind!

I can't wait till mine come later in the week!


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

I did a phosphate test this morning and it is hard to figure out what color it is suppose to be... The color in the tube does not exactly match any color on the chart. I would have to say that it is anywhere between 0 and .5. How high is too high for shrimps?


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## markalot (Apr 8, 2007)

cwilfinger said:


> I did a phosphate test this morning and it is hard to figure out what color it is suppose to be... The color in the tube does not exactly match any color on the chart. I would have to say that it is anywhere between 0 and .5. How high is too high for shrimps?


That pretty much describes what I get when testing for phosphates. I can't see why that would be a problem.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

markalot said:


> .. I can't see why that would be a problem.


Me neither. If Amano Shrimp are as sensitive to high phosphates as cherry shrimp, then all the Amano Shrimp in my 10 gallon should have died a long time ago. My tap water measures really high in phosphates as tested with a calibrated phosphate test kit and I even dose phosphate in my 10 gallon and have been doing this for some time. The shrimp are still all alive and kicking, molting without incident and at last count all accounted for.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

Well, I'm pretty much leaning towards a virus or something. I've been doing wc pretty much everyday, How much cleaner can one get the water? So, I do not think that the water is the problem. The deaths have been slowing down in the tank... I had 1 death on 1/9, 3 on 1/10, 2 on 1/11, and again 2 for today. It is still not good but it is way better than seeing 12-13 a day. I'm hesitant in placing any of them in a breeder net in another tank - for all my tanks have shrimp in them and if they are infected with something, then I will only accomplish infecting another tank of shrimps. So, I basically have no choice but to wait this out. If the deaths have any indication...then this virus or whatever it is, has basically ran it's course and should be stopping soon.


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## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

Can a medication be used in this case?


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

I don't think so, they are very sensitive little guys. Besides, I do not know exactly what they have, so how can I treat them?


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## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

Was just a thought. Hope the rest make it for you!

Take care!

Cindy


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

Phosphates that low are not a problem. It's when it goes over 5 that it might be a problem. So no worries there.
These were just some things I came across that could cause mass death.
Use of hot water when making water changes. Metal from tank being the reason.
Bad stock.
Over feeding.
To large water changes.
PH crash or spike.
New plants. Not washed enough, pesticides remaining.
Medications
Hidden penny that fell in tank.
Not enough iodine to molt.
Not enough calcium for proper shell growth.
These are just some, it's hard to pin down a cause of death. The fact that your shrimp turn white before dying is a sign of stress. But can be from two different diseases. Milk Illness caused by Myxosporidias or Porcelain Illness caused by Micropores Thelohania contejani. Remove the shrimp that are turning white and any bodies. I spreads through cannibalism in both cases. You can't do anything for Milky disease. You can try food soaked with malachite green for porcelain illness, but it may not help. Here is the website if you want to read it or look at the pics http://www.shrimp-diseases-online.com/diseases.htm
Hope this helps some.


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## ICU-Mailman (Jan 9, 2009)

I know that you stated that you are no longer feeding your shrimps HBH products. That is good as many of their products have a type of copper sulfate in them (which, I believe, test kits do not detect as such small levels). Just my two cents. I hope things improve and I agree with not moving them. Don't wanna go spreading any viruses.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

lf11 said:


> Phosphates that low are not a problem. It's when it goes over 5 that it might be a problem. So no worries there.
> These were just some things I came across that could cause mass death.
> Use of hot water when making water changes. Metal from tank being the reason.
> Bad stock.
> ...


 
WOW! Thanks for the link! That is really informative! I never knew such a site exsisted. Reading through it ... it looks like I might have the Porcelain Illness in my tank. I pretty well matches what I have seen in my tank.
It might have came from the tigers that I got. Only 4 out of 7 were alive and they were shipped out either on 12/26 or 12/24 and I received them on 12/31. They came from boston and shipped to chicago in the middle of winter. We're talking 5-7 days in the cold weather - They were very very colorless and the shipping water that they were in was extreamly cold. They were definitely very stressed when I did get them.
I did take a picture of them....


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

I'm glad I could help. Honestly, I didn't even know the site existed either. I found it while searching the pet shrimp forums.
Are you going to try the food soaked in malachite green, like they suggest? I'ld like to know if it works for you. If it works it gives everyone an option to try if this happens to them.
Keep us posted.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

So far today, no dead shrimps, and no "milky" looking shrimps. :bounce:
If I have anymore dead ones, I will definitely try the meds.
All in all, my tank took a heavy toll this time around 1 tiger and 60 cherrys were fished out of the tank. I do not know how many were devoured before I got to them...:icon_cry:


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

Update - it has now been 3 days and no more deaths!!

Thanks for all your help!


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## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

OMG that's wonderful! What do you think was the problem and what do you think hopefully solved everything?


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

I think that they got the Porcelain Illness from the tigers that I had gotten, they (the tigers) were very stressed out and very very cold from being in the cold winter weather for several days. I think that because of this, they had gotten sick and when I had placed them in my tank, it spread to the rest of the shrimps. But then, I could be completly wrong, but this is what I believe is what happened. I do not think that the shrimps were sick to begin with but with what they had to go through in the shipping process. That is what made them sick.


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