# Whats wrong with my plants?



## Cam-t1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Hey all, for the last ~6 weeks my plants have been looking /really/ sad. 
There are still small shoots of new leaves, but there's a type of algae growing on the plants, and they're in poor condition (no idea why)!

I've included as much info as I can think of so any help on what to do/what i'm doing wrong/what I should be doing, ANYTHING Would be really great lol, Thanks in advance!
(Pictures at bottom of page)

*Plant list:*


Two Double Anub. Hybrid & Anub. Paco - Driftwood
One Nano Rainforest Garden - Driftwood
One Medium Anubias - Driftwood
Two Anubias Hybrid (These two are new)
*Equipment - 
*

*Filters:*
Eheim Classic 2215
AquaOne Series 2 Aquis 1050


*Filter Pouches:*
2x API Nitrazorb (Removes Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate)
2x API Phoszorb (Removes phosphate)
1x API Biochem-zorb (Helps keep the water clean)



*Light*
AquaOne Coral Power
[2x Sunlight 54w T5 Tubes]
[1x Marine Blue 54w T5 Tube]
[1x Tropical 54w T5 Tube]
Lighting cycle is 6-8hrs per day.


*Air*
AquaOne Precision 9500 - Running an airstone all the time


*Co2*
Fluval Nano Pressurized CO2 Kit - 2/3 Hours a day @2-3bps


*Supplements*
Weekly dose of API Leaf-zone


*Water Change*
Weekly water change 50% with a gravel vac
- Fill up with hose, add Prime, Quick start, let it sit for a few minutes then start filters up again. Soon after I add Seachem Trace Elements


Filters get cleaned every 4-6 weeks.

*Water Parameters: *

pH - 7.6
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - Just under 5.0ppm
Phosphate - 0.5


----------



## BuddhaBoy (Jun 12, 2014)

I'll go out on a limb and say you have nowhere near enough co2 running into the tank. I've heard 2-3 hours barely gets them started from my research.


----------



## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

Also if you are running an airstone all the time, your working against yourself and facilitating the gassing out of the c02 you're putting in.


----------



## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

Your definitely lacking in the co2 department. Try running it 1 hour before the lights come on and turn it off 1 hour before the lights go out. Invest in a drop checker so you know if your getting enough or too much co2. Running it only a couple of hours a day will cause an imbalance, allowing for an algae take over. Have you ever calibrated your N03 and P04 test? http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=83545&highlight=calibration You'd be surprised how off they can be. Example my nitrate test looks like 40ppm but its really more like 20ppm. I notice you have a lot of chemical filtration that Nitrazorb and Phoszorb could be completely eliminating your N03 and P04, which your plants need to grow and if your test kits are off you could be getting a false reading.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Plants definitely need nutrients, and zorbing them out doesn't help that way. Water changes are the best way to keep the tank clean, no need for chemical filtration. I would also suggest to add lots of fast growing plants, at least in the beginning until things stabilize and algae disappears. Not sure about your tank size, but it seems like you may have way too much light, and not enough in the nutrient/CO2/plant mass department.


----------



## poormanisme (Jul 19, 2012)

First, way too much light. Id try to cut it in half or raise the fixture. Second I'd google the algae 1-2 punch then when most of the algae is gone your gonna need some ferts. Increase Co2. And then you'll be happy. Easy as that. Remember we are just growing underwater weeds. 
Good luck in your return to an algae free tank,
scott


----------



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

Lots of anubis in that tank. They are slow growers that don't gain much from CO2. They also do better in low light conditions. You'll need some fast growers in there to help balance the tank.


----------



## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

Here's an unfortunately (or fortunately) long list of what I think is going on in your tank that needs to be addressed:

*1) Low plant biomass*
Anubias are very slow growing plants. As such they don't need as much light or CO2 as other plants to grow well. Adding additional light and CO2 in a uniform fashion will cause them to grow faster (but you run a higher risk of adding either in an unbalanced fashion)

Add more biomass or reduce your lighting parameters.

*2) Lighting*
I think you have too much lighting for your low biomass. You have effectively 54*3 W of lighting but have very minimal plant biomass (your 54W marine blue doesn't seem like it adds any benefit to photosynthesis since it's primed for coral applications; I also dont' know enough about the other lights to comment, but am assuming they are suitable for freshwater)

Reduce your light intensity, reduce your photoperiod, or add more plants (preferably fast growing stem plants).

3) You have an airstone running 24/7 with the CO2. You might as well cut your CO2 tubing and let your canister leak it all out. An airstone will pretty much nullify any benefits of CO2 since it will gas it out pretty quickly. Your 2-3 bps is pretty much equivalent to 0bps with your airstone.

Buy a timer and set your CO2 on a timer. If you buy a day/night timer, then you can set it so that CO2 is on during the "day" cycle with the lights and your air stone turns on during the "night" cycle when the lights and CO2 are off.

4) Filter pouches

Not sure why you need filter pouches to neutralize your ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. Plants feed off ammonia and nitrates as their chief nitrogen source. By neutralizing these, you're essentially removing some of their food source. I can't comment on how much you're removing, however, since it looks like you still have nitrates in your tank (so either the pouches are dead now or you have a ton of nitrogen waste being produced).

Unless you had some pretty negative reactions in the past without these, I'd remove your nitrazorb.

I think you can keep the phosphazorb though. I've never experienced this myself, but I've heard it's a "newbie workaround" to use that to control algae blooms. Tom Barr would argue not to use this workaround but that's an entirely separate discussion/thread.

5) CO2 Injection

CO2 injection should align with your photoperiod. If you run 8hours of lighting, you should run 8 hours of CO2. One of the key principles in CO2 injection is to raise your dissolved CO2 level to a max acceptable value without stressing your fauna and keep it at that level until your photoperiod ends. The times where your lights are on full blast and you haven't reached this optimal CO2 level are the times when algae will thrive and have a field day in your tank since your plants can't photosynthesize as effectively with the lower amounts of CO2.

With a timer strip, align your CO2 injection with your photoperiod so that they turn on right when your lights turn on (or even 30 min before the lights turn on if you can) and turn off immediately when your lights go off.

I have to add some caveats about CO2 injection: Changing the way you apply CO2 can have disastrous consequences on your fauna if you're not monitoring it diligently. Managing your CO2 levels is as much an art as it is a science. Too much CO2 will kill your fauna pretty quickly so I'd advise you to make the CO2 adjustments on a weekend when you can monitor your tank (if you decide to make this change). I've had situations where my fish were fine the first 6 hrs of CO2 injection and come the 7th hour were gasping for air. 

6) Algae problem

If you make all the changes I suggested above, it won't eliminate the algae that you already have. It will at best stop their growth, so you'll still be left with all the unsightly algae you have right now. You can either do the "1-2 punch" on algae (google it) to kill them all off and then rely on algae eaters to clean things up, or you can go ahead and manually clean each and every leaf of the tank. (I'd probably recommend you do both). I'm a huge fan of the 1-2 punch and have used it multiple times with success. You get the best results, however, if you remove all your fish and do the 1-2 punch in full strength and then run carbon in your filter for 24 hours post treatment to absorb any leftover excel that might hurt your fish when you reintroduce them.

Also, I can't for sure but it looks like you have black beard algae. This will usually go away with adequate CO2 injection balanced with light.

If you start to see staghorn algae growing, you're probably overfeeding and causing transient ammonia spikes.

Sorry for the long read, but I hope this helps!


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Great writeup ced!


----------



## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

Wow, there are some great tips in here.

I don't mean to hijack, but I would LOVE for someone to review my journal and give the same kind of loving info! http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=669265&page=2

Cam-t1 - best of luck getting things under control. I like your tank's layout a lot.


----------



## Cam-t1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Apologies for the late reply.
Thanks heaps for all the help everyone, huge thanks to ced for that write up and information! 

*@greaser84* I do have a drop checker in there - didn't come with a chart and I dont take too much notice of it, should I empty it and refill it again? I've also moved the outtake of the filter facing the diffuser so the Co2 gets spread more.

The only reason I had the zorb pouches in there is because they have been there since early times with the tank (have been replaced ofc), I'll remove the Nitrazorb/phoszorb and monitor the tank carefully for any spikes - am I able to leave the Biochem in there to keep the clarity of the water?

I'm going away in two weeks (not for long), so I'm not going to do too big of a change with anything until I come back (just to play it safe).
For now i'll only run 2 of the 4 bulbs (a sunlight white, and tropical pink), run the Co2 for an hour before lights come on, and until I turn the lights off (i'll reduce my light period to 6hrs max?).

For days when I'm at work am I able to leave my lights and Co2 off all day and put them both on for 6 hours when I get home? (5-11pm) or will that be the wrong thing to do?

When I get back from going away i'll look into the 1-2 punch method and I'd like to replace the plain gravel for a good aqua soil (ADA?), and get a 'proper' Co2 Kit, then really plant some faster-growing plants, and finally get my tank to how I want it.

*Another question:* The Leafzone is about to run out, opinions on Seachem Flourish range?

Cheers to everyone again, i'll keep this thread updated (for my own sake aswell lol)


----------



## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

Cam-t1 said:


> Apologies for the late reply.
> 
> The only reason I had the zorb pouches in there is because they have been there since early times with the tank (have been replaced ofc), I'll remove the Nitrazorb/phoszorb and monitor the tank carefully for any spikes - am I able to leave the Biochem in there to keep the clarity of the water?


 Don't take out the phoszorb. If other members experiences are accurate, then the taking out the phoszorb might trigger additional algae. 




Cam-t1 said:


> I'm going away in two weeks (not for long), so I'm not going to do too big of a change with anything until I come back (just to play it safe).


Your tank should start stabilizing in a couple days and be (close) to steady state after a week so your going away won't do much as long as everything has been calibrated and set up before you go.



Cam-t1 said:


> For now i'll only run 2 of the 4 bulbs (a sunlight white, and tropical pink), run the Co2 for an hour before lights come on, and until I turn the lights off (i'll reduce my light period to 6hrs max?).


 For now just set the CO2 to turn on 30 min before hand. Also, be prepared to watch the tank diligently for the first hour and then check every 30 minutes or so to make sure you aren't gassing your fish. If you see them choking for air, then just raise our outflow so that it disrupts your water surface. You will then have to calibrate your CO2 lower and try again. 



Cam-t1 said:


> For days when I'm at work am I able to leave my lights and Co2 off all day and put them both on for 6 hours when I get home? (5-11pm) or will that be the wrong thing to do?


I used to do this myself and liked it because it meant I could enjoy my fish more. The only issue I ran into was sunlight that would come in an add to the "total photoperiod". Besides this, I don't see anything wrong with it.



Cam-t1 said:


> When I get back from going away i'll look into the 1-2 punch method and I'd like to replace the plain gravel for a good aqua soil (ADA?), and get a 'proper' Co2 Kit, then really plant some faster-growing plants, and finally get my tank to how I want it.


Be careful about the using amazonia aquasoil. Since you're a beginner with ADA products you will likely run into a number of issues with setup, maintenance, etc. Make sure to browse the forums and read up on all the caveats and proper usage of aquasoil! I've set up and torn down 30+ tanks with ADA equipment and have run into a multitude of issues, so feel free to PM with me questions. 



Cam-t1 said:


> *Another question:* The Leafzone is about to run out, opinions on Seachem Flourish range?


Never used it so I can't say. Many people subscribe to dry ferts, I use Flourish Iron + the PFertz line of liquid ferts because it's super convenient. PFertz was gone for a while but they're back in business now. The liquid ferts are contained in little pump bottles and you can just squirt in a pump for every 10 gals your tank is.


----------



## Cam-t1 (Dec 15, 2013)

ced281 said:


> You will then have to calibrate your CO2 lower and try again.


What do you mean by calibrate? I was just going to do 2-3 bps without air on, I done this last night for 6+ hours as a test, all fish were fine  Just hungry..like always.



ced281 said:


> Be careful about the using amazonia aquasoil. Since you're a beginner with ADA products you will likely run into a number of issues with setup, maintenance, etc. Make sure to browse the forums and read up on all the caveats and proper usage of aquasoil! I've set up and torn down 30+ tanks with ADA equipment and have run into a multitude of issues, so feel free to PM with me questions.


Yeah I have heard alot about this, but spoke to someone up the coast from me at a shop who said its not true.. But experience is the real truth lol
Can you recommend a good aqua soil thats available in Australia? I haven't been able to find many other then ADA that have a good rep. I'll keep your PM offer in mind, cheers again ced.


----------



## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

What do you mean by calibrate? I was just going to do 2-3 bps without air on, I done this last night for 6+ hours as a test, all fish were fine  Just hungry..like always.[/QUOTE]

You've pretty much done the calibration already since the 2-3bps is working fine for you. If you have a drop checker you can fine tune it, but at this point I wouldn't bother until you come back from your vacation.



Cam-t1 said:


> Yeah I have heard alot about this, but spoke to someone up the coast from me at a shop who said its not true.. But experience is the real truth lol
> Can you recommend a good aqua soil thats availble in Australia? I haven't been able to find many other then ADA that have a good rep. I'll keep your PM offer in mind, cheers again ced.


I mainly have experience with amazonia II and malaya. Amazonia has better nutrients but is a bit harder to set up. Malaya has poor nutrients but is pretty much fish safe after an 30min of filtration. Half of my set ups have been with Amazonia, the other half with Malaya. I tend to base my new set ups / re-do's based on what substrate I have on hand and what hardscape and plants I want to use.

A lot of people will recommend a fishless start with Amazonia since it leeches out ammonia. If you're okay with risking some fish or am in a rush like I usually am, you can actually introduce (hardier) fish to a new Amazonia tank as long as you have a pre-ready filter that's already been cycled. I can tell you more about this if you decide to go this route.

If you go Malaya, you will need to supplement the soil. Osmocote plus works pretty well and I also use pond plant fertilizer spikes that you can get from a hardware/gardening store.

Btw, you don't *have* to use ADA substrate. Depending on what plants you use, you can use aquarium sand or gravel supplemented with substrate fertilizers to meet your needs. Just think about how you want your substrate to complement your hardscape, flora, and fauna and you'll find your perfect mix.


----------



## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

Cam-t1 said:


> *@greaser84* I do have a drop checker in there - didn't come with a chart and I dont take too much notice of it, should I empty it and refill it again? I've also moved the outtake of the filter facing the diffuser so the Co2 gets spread more.
> 
> The only reason I had the zorb pouches in there is because they have been there since early times with the tank (have been replaced ofc), I'll remove the Nitrazorb/phoszorb and monitor the tank carefully for any spikes - am I able to leave the Biochem in there to keep the clarity of the water?


The drop checker is very important and should be watched closely. Blue= not enough co2, green= optimal co2( somewhere are around 30ppm), yellow= too much co2. I change by 4dkh solution about once a month. Its obvious that the zorb pouches haven't done you any good, I'd remove them. Keep the biochem if you want, also purigen keeps water crystal clear. All of my tanks have excess fertilizer, way more then the plants will ever use, I don't have algae issues because my lighting and co2 are dialed in. One of my tanks has an average of 4-5 ppm P04 and its the cleanest tank I have. Most algae problems start because of lighting and co2 so start there, then worry about nutrients.


----------



## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

*Can you take a close up photo of the anubias leaf in the top right of your tank?* The leaf with the yellow/brown spots. 

*Is this leaf an old leaf or a new leaf?* Look alone the stem.

*Is your water hard? GH reading?*

I think the lighting on the tank is ok. I think CO2 will probably not hurt the tank if you increased it, though I doubt it will solve the current issue.

Calibrating your test kits is a great idea and I think it would be beneficial if you did that and retested the nitrates and phosphates in particular.

This looks like a possible mobile nutrient deficiency (N, P, K, or Mg) because it seems like only the older leaves are affected. *Can you take a look and trace where the yellow leaves attach to the rhizome? Are they older or newer near the growing bud? Are the newest made leaves growing out progressively smaller or are they normal sized?* I'm not sure if it is possible to photograph the leaves and where they attach to the stems but photos of that would be very helpful.

As others mentioned above, for the algae you need more plant mass. Fast growing healthy plants (not-nutrient deficient plants) will out compete algae. They do this by 1) making natural algaecidal chemicals, 2) by shading out the algae and 3) by not leaking vital organic compounds into the water that many species of algae can consume and use as a nutrient. This is why when plants are deficient you tend to see algae blooms.


----------



## doninla (Mar 3, 2013)

Regarding CO2 - I use a Ph-based controller/probe/regulator/valve system, which controls CO2 by maintaining the Ph at a constant level (7.0 in my case, for a heavily planted 75G Discus tank). I leave this running 24x7. I haven't actually monitored it but I suspect that there is no gas injected at night, when the plants start generating CO2 rather than O2 and the Ph naturally drops.

anyone have comments about the wisdom of this approach? 

thanks


----------



## 2sunnysue (Dec 31, 2013)

*evil algae*

I have a dirted tank in a 55g loaded with snails, shrimp, tetras, barbs, danios, and platies. Most of my plants are low light crypts, bulbs, a sword, etc. I do, however, have a piece of driftwood that looks like a dead oak tree that I threaded on moss. This stuff loves the higher light of my LED set and absorbs a great amount of the nitrates and competes with the algae. BTW--I know the tank might be crazier with CO2, but I don't have any and IMHO don't really need it. 

I had one algae bloom in the last year. The water had a green tinge and the hair algae started to take over on the plants. I did 3 things to get rid of it since algae killing chemicals are not an option with shrimp:
1) Reduced the number of hours of light per day
2) Increased the number and volume of water changes (30% 3 times a week for several weeks instead of 10% once a week). I also cut back on the ferts for a while and I love the Seachem line.
3) I changed out the water conditioner product I had in there--Chemi Pure Elite. I think this was exhausting and allowing the bloom. Once I put a fresh one in, no more blooms. I was recommended this stuff by AZAQUATICS and I won't go without it.:angel:This is my savior!


----------



## KennyCurfman (Jun 9, 2013)

I always calculate my CO2 level by knowing the pH and KH levels using an app called "Aquarium Tools." 

For instance, I type in my pH of 6.7 in one box, then my KH of 4 in the other box and hit "calculate" to get a reading of 23ppm CO2. 

Has anyone ever used hydrogen peroxide to treat algae?


----------



## Amp2020 (Mar 8, 2013)

Looks like your having a black beard algae outbreak. Its a sign that the tank recently went through a period of insufficient nutrients such as CO2. Strong lights require a good amount of co2 with a drop checker to keep levels correct. Lower light levels are not as demanding. Here's what I'd do. Get a drop checker and adjust the CO2 levels with a good needle valve and bubble counter. Keep the total photoperiod to 8-10 hours daily with an automatic timer. Use Excel by Flourish and dose according to the instructions. Eventually you need to increase the dosage slowly and the Excel will get rid of all the algae but take it slow to prevent melting your plants. 

Bristlenose plecos, SAE, or mollies will help eat some of the algae but nothing will eat all of it. BBA is tough to get rid of. You may need to trim all the affected leaves and just wait for clean new leaves to grow in.


----------



## Amp2020 (Mar 8, 2013)

KennyCurfman said:


> Has anyone ever used hydrogen peroxide to treat algae?


Yes, and it works but only treat small areas in tank. If you need to treat large surfaces. Treat them out of the tank and be sure to rinse really well before putting the item back into the tank. Use straight hydrogen peroxide with a qtip or spray bottle for large areas. Too much in the tank will burn the fish.


----------



## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

KennyCurfman said:


> Has anyone ever used hydrogen peroxide to treat algae?


Yes. The "One-Two Punch" discussed above uses HO and Excel to kill it off. But if your tank is out of balance, it's a temporary fix. Outstanding method, though.

See this thread for details: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=203684

(be sure to read far enough into the thread to learn the newer, lower recommendations)


----------



## KennyCurfman (Jun 9, 2013)

kman said:


> Yes. The "One-Two Punch" discussed above uses HO and Excel to kill it off. But if your tank is out of balance, it's a temporary fix. Outstanding method, though.
> 
> See this thread for details: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=203684
> 
> (be sure to read far enough into the thread to learn the newer, lower recommendations)


Thanks!


----------



## KennyCurfman (Jun 9, 2013)

Is my profile pick not showing up for you guys? I don't see it, but when I go to edit my profile pic it shows on there already...


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

There's a pic in your profile but you have no avatar, if that's what you mean. That's the pic displayed under people's name in their posts. Go to User CP > Edit avatar, from there you can upload an image.


----------



## KennyCurfman (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks.


----------



## Cam-t1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Apologies again for the late reply - haven't had much time to jump on.

@ced 
I will be messaging you after my break and further discuss types of soil, it will have to be something which is safe for fish to be in the tank whilst the soil is newly in there, i'm going to get rid of the eheim (bit too small, harder to clean) and get an Aquamanta canister in there (alot larger, easy to clean/larger amount of bio-noodles/balls) so after that cycles for a bit I will have two filters ready to support a big change.




greaser84 said:


> The drop checker is very important and should be watched closely. Blue= not enough co2, green= optimal co2( somewhere are around 30ppm), yellow= too much co2. I change by 4dkh solution about once a month. Its obvious that the zorb pouches haven't done you any good, I'd remove them. Keep the biochem if you want, also purigen keeps water crystal clear. All of my tanks have excess fertilizer, way more then the plants will ever use, I don't have algae issues because my lighting and co2 are dialed in. One of my tanks has an average of 4-5 ppm P04 and its the cleanest tank I have. Most algae problems start because of lighting and co2 so start there, then worry about nutrients.


Mines a very deep green, but has never been changed - i'm doing a clean on the tank on Wednesday so i'll replace the solution then.
I just have a ANS Drop Checker, packaging was a plain plastic - nothing special, the liquid just says CO2 Test Reagent, is this fine to use?

Yeah i'll be removing all pouches, and will test daily, if I notice a quick change in anything i'll come to it then, hopefully not though.



Zapins said:


> *Can you take a close up photo of the anubias leaf in the top right of your tank?* The leaf with the yellow/brown spots.












*


Zapins said:



Is this leaf an old leaf or a new leaf?

Click to expand...

*


Zapins said:


> Look alone the stem.


This is an old leaf, has been there for a long time.



Zapins said:


> *Is your water hard? GH reading?*


8 drops was the change from yellow to green (API GH) so 80ppm.



Zapins said:


> *Can you take a look and trace where the yellow leaves attach to the rhizome? Are they older or newer near the growing bud? Are the newest made leaves growing out progressively smaller or are they normal sized?* I'm not sure if it is possible to photograph the leaves and where they attach to the stems but photos of that would be very helpful.


I think this is what you're looking for, some of the new leaves are growing out but going yellow, other (newer i assume) leaves that are smaller are like the larger ones - covered in algae.



















Zapins said:


> As others mentioned above, for the algae you need more plant mass. Fast growing healthy plants (not-nutrient deficient plants) will out compete algae. They do this by 1) making natural algaecidal chemicals, 2) by shading out the algae and 3) by not leaking vital organic compounds into the water that many species of algae can consume and use as a nutrient. This is why when plants are deficient you tend to see algae blooms.


Yeah, in the coming months I will make it more planted - i would just hate to spend heaps of money on plants for them all to be covered in algae :frown: 
I'd like to rectify the current problem and start to see some algae die before adding heaps more plants (if thats possible). 



2sunnysue said:


> 1) Reduced the number of hours of light per day
> 2) Increased the number and volume of water changes (30% 3 times a week for several weeks instead of 10% once a week). I also cut back on the ferts for a while and I love the Seachem line.
> 3) I changed out the water conditioner product I had in there--Chemi Pure Elite. I think this was exhausting and allowing the bloom. Once I put a fresh one in, no more blooms. I was recommended this stuff by AZAQUATICS and I won't go without it.:angel:This is my savior!


Thanks for your advice sunnysue, I use Seachem Prime, Aquaone Tropical Conditioning salts for conditioning and throughout the week Seachem Fresh trace elements, do you think this could be giving the algae some help?

Cheers *@Amp2020*. I'll look into it.
________________________________________________

Again, thanks heaps everyone! Ultimately I want to do whats safest for my fish first, i'll go through all the options in the next few weeks and list the safest (and derp proof) options first, hopefully can end up with an algae free tank! lol


----------



## soundsabitfishy (May 1, 2014)

*In my opinion...*

To fix it I Would:
Turn off your air pump during the day and only run it at night.
Start dosing with Seachem Flourish Excel, every morning. It is important to dose your carbon in the morning so your plants can properly utilize it while the lights are on and the plants are photosynthesizing. Don't increase your other co2 source, just supplement it with the Excel.
Add more, faster growing, plants to absorb the excess nutrients in the tank. Excess nutrients equal excess algae.
Unless you are using the blue marine light, all by itself, and only at night, for accenting the aquarium, I would remove it all together and replace it with another tropical 54w T5 tube. Running the blue light all the time will prevent your plants from photosynthesizing properly and can slow their growth significantly, if they aren't growing they aren't using up the nutrients in the tank. Excess nutrients equal excess algae.
Stop dosing with the API Leaf-zone, your tank is not planted heavily enough. The food you feed your fish will have more than enough nutrients for the amount and type of plants that you have. Excess nutrients equal excess algae.
I would never use the Nitrazorb pouches in my filter for a planted tank, the plants require the nitrates to produce amino acids for proper growth. I also would not just remove them both immediately, take them out next time you clean your filter and replace them with EHEIM bioMECH or API Bio-Chem Stars, the extra bacterial growth will help prevent ammonia and nitrite toxicity.

This is just what I would do, based only on my past experiences.


----------



## Cam-t1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Update!

In short: Everything is going well.

Half way through my vacation my co2 bottle ran out, and being back almost a week I still haven't gotten co2 in there as my supplier is waiting on stock, so some algae is reappearing, however im using API CO2 Booster to get me through.

All in all, the spots of algae on the glass is very minimal, the new shoots of leaves coming through aren't yellow or covered in algae and look healthy, I'm going to trim all the leaves that still have the black hair looking algae on them next week *Question*: Is the best way to cut at the bottom of the stem on an angle?

Next step is to purchase a 'Taiwan Classic 1L CO2 System with two solenoid regulator' which my LFS is selling for around $270. - Anyone ever heard/used this product before? I believe this is the solenoid regulator and this is the CO2 Bottle. (I also get the first 6 refills free which is good).

After I purchase that and rid pretty much all algae from the tank and the plants look completely happy/growing/etc Im going to change from normal gravel to a type of aqua soil (haven't decided which one) then stock the tank up with heaps of plants!

Just thought I would let everyone thats given me a hand know how I'm going.


----------



## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Cam-t1 said:


> *Question*: Is the best way to cut at the bottom of the stem on an angle?


Any angle works with aquatic plants. The reason people advise a slanted cut for terrestrial plants is to provide a larger area for the cut stem to absorb water and not dehydrate. Aquatic plants don't have an issue with drying out, so the angle of the cut does not matter.


----------



## Cam-t1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Zapins said:


> Any angle works with aquatic plants. The reason people advise a slanted cut for terrestrial plants is to provide a larger area for the cut stem to absorb water and not dehydrate. Aquatic plants don't have an issue with drying out, so the angle of the cut does not matter.



Ahk sweet 
Probably a stupid question but I want to be sure: is it okay to do a heavy trim at one go? Or should a do it over a week, I just want to cut off all the still affected leaves cause I'm sure them in there weak/covered in algae wouldn't be helping everything else

And regarding your OP, what's the need of dosing carbon before lights/co2?


----------



## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Cam-t1 said:


> Probably a stupid question but I want to be sure: is it okay to do a heavy trim at one go? Or should a do it over a week, I just want to cut off all the still affected leaves cause I'm sure them in there weak/covered in algae wouldn't be helping everything else


It isn't a bad question. You can do either. There might be some minor differences between the two but nothing that you'll notice unless you measured each very accurately.



Cam-t1 said:


> And regarding your OP, what's the need of dosing carbon before lights/co2?


I originally posted this:


Zapins said:


> I think the lighting on the tank is ok. I think CO2 will probably not hurt the tank if you increased it, though I doubt it will solve the current issue.


What I meant by that was you can raise your CO2 dosing amount it won't hurt anything but it won't solve the damaged leaves/algae issue. 

You don't really need to dose CO2 at night because plants can't use it when there is no light. I personally just leave my CO2 on 24/7 because it is easier to do that and it doesn't hurt anything. Maybe a few dollars of wasted CO2 per year but oh well.

As for your algae situation I suggest you have a read through this post I made a while back. It explains what I believe causes algae and how it related to nutrient deficiencies and how often we see algae in each of the major types of tank setup we have (soil, EI, PPS, etc).

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=679601

This is the key diagram from the above thread which shows which factors contribute to algae and how to reduce algae in our tanks.


----------



## Cam-t1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Cheers. I'll have a good read of that thread later tonight. 

I'll take your advice on dosing the excel. Seeing just the correct co2/lighting balance help as much as it has, I'm sure the carbon will do even more good things lol

Just the recommended dose? And is there any worries about using this with my fish in the tank?

My day cycle for my tank is co2 on at around 5:30pm (air goes off) lights go on close to 6pm and I turn the co2/lights off at 11-12ish so they get at the most 7 hours of co2/light per night, and the minimum 5 hours per night. Then air goes on from 12am- the next night.

Should I add the excel at the same time I turn my co2 on? (~20min before my lights come on).

Cheers zapins!


----------



## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

You can use excel (though I never mentioned you should use it in this thread). Excel's main use is killing algae. I'm not convinced it really contributes to a plant's growth, but it does tend to kill off algae over time.

Excel doesn't really harm fish or shrimp at the recommended dose, but it can harm certain plants like vals and riccia, possibly crypts and some other less common species.

Yes add the excel during lights on.


----------



## Cam-t1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Zapins said:


> You can use excel (though I never mentioned you should use it in this thread). Excel's main use is killing algae. I'm not convinced it really contributes to a plant's growth, but it does tend to kill off algae over time.
> 
> Excel doesn't really harm fish or shrimp at the recommended dose, but it can harm certain plants like vals and riccia, possibly crypts and some other less common species.
> 
> Yes add the excel during lights on.


Well if it helps kill algae then I'm very keen lol

Not too worried about plant growth at the moment, id like to rid pretty much all of the algae (hopefully using the right co2/light levels and excel) from there I'll be changing the substrate/adding *heaps* more plants, which is the next big step lol


----------



## Cam-t1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Alright, another update.

Done a very big trim today, did noticed a few shoots which is great, all the roots/stems of the plants are nice and green, not really many yellow/brown/dead looking left. Algae has already started to slowly go away - still a bit here and there on the plants, but has definitely slowly reducing. Hopefully soon going to get some more growth (algae free would be greeaaat!)










Co2 checker seems to always be this colour, maybe goes a bit darker a few hours before the co2 goes on, but i'm sure this is the right colour?









Using flourish excel and 6-8bps of co2 for 6-8 hours daily with two lights.
*Question about my lights:* There are 4 bulbs, 2 switches, so 2 bulbs per switch.

One switch had the Marine (blue) and Tropical (pink) Globe, the other had two sunlight (white) globes.

So today I made it one switch would have 1 sunlight and one tropical and thats all Im going to use, but it seems to be *much* brighter, I'm guessing because instead of using the dull blue and pink, i'm using the bright white and pink, still the same amount of watt as before, but it being brighter - will it be an issue with algae coming back having such few plants in the tank? Or am i being too paranoid lol.

*Another question*: My LFS has some nice vari lime rush plants (image here) on sale, and this place doesn't sell many plants so I wanted to pick them up, I dont think it'll do any harm adding a few plants at the moment? More the better, right?

Cheers everyone!


----------



## Cam-t1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Sorry for the double post, was just staring at my tank for a while (im not weird, I promise) and noticed that some of the black beard algae along the side of a plant had turned...red?









Anyone care to elaborate? lol


----------



## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

Red or pink algae usually means it is dead or dying. That's a good thing.


----------



## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

The rushes are not fully aquatic plants and will die if kept underwater permanently so they are not a good choice for aquariums, they are better for ponds.

When BBA turns red it means it has been damaged by something and is dying. In a few hours from now it will turn gray (dead) and then rot away over the next week.


----------



## Cam-t1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Yeww! Thanks for the good news! 

Alright i'll hold off on the rushes, is there such thing as producing too much co2/light for such few plants?


----------



## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Cam-t1 said:


> Alright i'll hold off on the rushes, is there such thing as producing too much co2/light for such few plants?


Not likely. Anything under 200 ppm CO2 in the water is definitely safe, 200-500 ppm is where growth problems may start to happen depending on the species.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Zapins said:


> Not likely. Anything under 200 ppm CO2 in the water is definitely safe, 200-500 ppm is where growth problems may start to happen depending on the species.


.???
I'm pretty sure over 90 ppm, fish will start taking nose dives, jumping out of the tank, etc...

FYI, 200 ppm in water is the of around 2000 ppm in air. That'll kills most critters.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

That is true but his question specifically asked about plants which start developing abnormally between 200-500 ppm in water. Fish can easily be killed by much lower concentrations as you mentioned. Probably even lower than 90 ppm unless they have been acclimatized slowly. CO2 inactivates half of the hemoglobin on fish's red blood cells and decreases the amount of oxygen they can transport. It will also irritate their gills which make mucous to protect the tissue which further reduces the amount of oxygen that enters the blood. This is why fish tend to gasp at the surface when you increase CO2 too quickly or too high. Fish likely adapt over time to these issues by making more red blood cells to compensate.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Well, my first thoughts are for the fishes.

To the op, make it easy on yourself and reduce your light intensity. You'll still get good growth and you won't get algae or kill your fish with too much co2 & excell.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Cam-t1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Zapins said:


> CO2 inactivates half of the hemoglobin on fish's red blood cells and decreases the amount of oxygen they can transport. It will also irritate their gills which make mucous to protect the tissue which further reduces the amount of oxygen that enters the blood. This is why fish tend to gasp at the surface when you increase CO2 too quickly or too high. Fish likely adapt over time to these issues by making more red blood cells to compensate.


Thanks for the lesson! lol
I sometimes will see my fish (only a few every now and then) on the surface, I am sure they're looking for food though as they always go near the top of the tank when I go near the tank.


How do I tell the ppm of CO2 though? I just keep an eye on the drop checker and make sure it doesn't go yellow (never has).
I've left my CO2 on all night once, purely by accident, everything was fine the next morning, won't make that mistake again just incase though.



mistergreen said:


> To the op, make it easy on yourself and reduce your light intensity. You'll still get good growth and you won't get algae or kill your fish with too much co2 & excell.


Alright i'll limit it too the one Sunlight (white) globe for now, see how they go. I just dont want there to be too much light for not enough plants (and algae grow back), I'm not worried about co2 and excel, the fish are used to it and seem happy.


----------



## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Cam-t1 said:


> How do I tell the ppm of CO2 though? I just keep an eye on the drop checker and make sure it doesn't go yellow (never has).


It isn't super critical to know exactly what ppm CO2 you have in the water. With 2-3 bubbles per second you'll probably have enough. In fact, if you are adding pressurized CO2 to the tank you are going to help the plants out no matter how low it is set, though generally the more the better (for plants). Though if you really want to know the ppm a guy on kickstarter just started making OCO meters (CO2 concentration meters for aquariums). He got funding and should be shipping out the first batch of meters in September. After that he might continue to make them and then you can buy one from his store (I hope).

Use the fish as an indicator. If they seem stressed out and are breathing at the surface then you know you've added too much. Somewhere below this mark is a good level to maintain.

Though keep in mind fish can build up a tolerance to CO2, so if you slowly raise the bubble rate over a few weeks the fish will be fine, but if you add a new fish to the tank it might die since it has gone from 0 to insane CO2 concentration.



Cam-t1 said:


> I've left my CO2 on all night once, purely by accident, everything was fine the next morning, won't make that mistake again just in case though.


You don't need to turn off the CO2 at night. I don't anymore. The only reason to turn it off is to save on CO2 tank refills. Plants don't really use CO2 at night like they do in the daytime, so you are just maintaining the CO2 concentration for the morning when the lights are on, and probably maintaining the pH as well, so just a little more stable tank conditions.


----------



## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

Zapins said:


> It isn't super critical to know exactly what ppm CO2 you have in the water. With 2-3 bubbles per second you'll probably have enough. In fact, if you are adding pressurized CO2 to the tank you are going to help the plants out no matter how low it is set, though generally the more the better (for plants). Though if you really want to know the ppm a guy on kickstarter just started making OCO meters (CO2 concentration meters for aquariums). He got funding and should be shipping out the first batch of meters in September. After that he might continue to make them and then you can buy one from his store (I hope).
> 
> Use the fish as an indicator. If they seem stressed out and are breathing at the surface then you know you've added too much. Somewhere below this mark is a good level to maintain.
> 
> ...


Agreed re using your fish as an indicator. If they don't seem stressed, and aren't gasping at the surface, and are behaving normally, you are not overdoing your co2. It gets pretty obvious when you are... you really can't miss the behavior. Since true measurements are very difficult to come by, it's quite common to simply fine tune your co2 output by using your fish as a warning sign. Crank up the co2 until you see the fish start to get unhappy, and then lower it bit by bit until they calm down again. That's your max co2 level, no hard numbers needed.

The main reason to turn your co2 off at night, other than waste (and aren't we struggling to reduce excess co2 on this planet as it is?), is the ph shift. While the lights are on and the plants and photosynthesizing, they're using up the co2. When the lights go out, if the co2 stays on, your tank's ph will shift, sometimes dramatically. Also, co2 levels in the tank can go up higher than usual, since nothing is using it up any more (leading to you a problem with your fish again). Since plants don't photosynthesize with the lights off, there is NO reason to have the extra co2 in the water. Some people even run an airstone at night to help oxygenate the water, and then turn it off when the co2 comes back on, of course. But it seems simplest and least complicated, to me, to just put the co2 on the same timer as your lights. Lights+co2, dark=no co2. (many people prefer to use different timers, however, so the co2 comes up about 30 minutes before the lights do, so the plants have an immediate carbon source when they start photosynthesizing, and then turn the co2 off about 30 minutes before the lights go out, so the plants have a chance to pull all the excess co2 out of the water before the lights go out).


----------



## klibs (May 1, 2014)

My drop checker is always green-yellow when I come home and my fish are totally fine. Just because it is past green doesn't mean you will definitely have problems.

To off-gas my CO2 at night I just have 1 of my spray bars ripple the surface a little bit. This makes it so I have to run quite a lot of BPS when the lights are on but it works good for me (don't like airstones)

Also for best results turn CO2 on an hour before lights / turn if off an hour before lights go off IMO. This way you will have enough CO2 already in the water column when the lights come on.


----------

