# Apistogramma cacatuoides



## davemonkey (Sep 21, 2008)

I'm getting ready to purchase some of these for a 55 gal tank (48" x 12" ).

My plan is to get about 5 of these (the ones I'm looking at are too young to be properly sexed) and will be in a tank with RCS (not concerned with them eating baby shrimp) , and schools of _Trigonostigma espei_ and _Rasbora rubrodorsalis_.

Based on experience, is 5 a good number? If they all turn out to be males will I have major problems? Do these (this species) do better as a harem, or as paried male/female?

Thanks,

Dave


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## jabbott (Feb 7, 2009)

If those behave anything like German Blue Rams (another dwarf cichlid), I'd be worried about them eating the adult RCS as well. My rams chased and ate the adults before I moved most of them to another tank.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

People report mixed success with dwarf cichlids and RCS. My GBRs and Apisto LOVED RCS and cleared out the entire colony from my well-planted 90gal in less than a week. The Apisto was particularly vicious... would dart out from behind something, grab a shrimp, and shake it violently before dragging it back into its hideout to munch. Of course, this particular Apisto also later went on to terrorize full grown angelfish 10x its own size...

I haven't kept A. agassizi so I don't know how territorial or aggro they may be during breeding. I know some Apistos set up huge breeding territories, others are relatively small and will tolerate other pairs nearby... www.Apistogramma.com would be a good place to do some research.


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## cale262 (Sep 22, 2008)

I've had the same experience with my Pisto's, they went to work on my shrimp like a hungry pack of wolves. At first it was almost fun to watch and I thought they would never wipe out the whole colony (heavy planted 125G), A few weeks later there wasn't a single RCS to be found...I only wish they did the same to RH snails...

Funny though, I also had Bolivian rams in that tank and as far as I know they never touched the shrimp...at least not enough to notice a loss.


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

Apistos are my favorite fish. I currently am maintaining six distinct species in 12(+) assorted breeding/species tanks. (Along w/ 3 other SA dwarfs, & 4 African dwarf cichlids. ) 

I have had several years of trouble trying to keep the _A. aggies_. I have a display tank full of older widowed females 2+ and 3+ years old. They appear to be almost tougher than nails. Not so the males! Unless you can provide softer and warmer water to keep them in; you would do well to choose a less fussy species. After several failures I had to surrender and admit my water was just too hard. Because I couldn't give up my attachment to these guys, I did finally invest in the necessary R/O unit. (_And_ more tanks, tank racking, sponge filters, live foods, etc., etc.) Now, I'm keeping them happy and actually succeeding w/ spawning them.

However, still can't convince these males to not predate on the fry. _A. baenschi_, _A. borellii_, and even _A. cacatuoides _ have done great raising fry w/ both parents in the tank. Not so for the _A. agassizii_.:angryfire

If your water is hard, _A. borellii _and _A. cacatuoides_ would be easier apistos to keep. Even _A. trifasciata _will do fine in moderately hard water.

Ditto what the other posters comment about the apistos and shrimp. Most will love to chomp them!

Additionally, the problem won't be if all turn out to be just males. It all depends on which mix of M/F you end up with.

Another good reference:
http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/index.php


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## davemonkey (Sep 21, 2008)

Thanks for the info and websites. Yeah, I probably should have left off the info about the shrimp (not very concerned about them), I'm mostly trying to grasp some knowledge on these Apistos.

How about the McMaster's Apisto?


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## hoa101 (Aug 31, 2009)

As far as water params to "keep" apistos, I believe saying that they need soft and acidic water is not correct. I had posed that question many times myself, and the verdict was that most fish (inc. apistos) can adapt to all manner of water conditions. My water is pH 7.5 and GH 10°, and my Aggies are thriving. I don't expect they will ever breed, but that wasn't why I bought them.

During my research I noticed that alot of people tend to spread this impression that you can't keep X fish in Y parameters, blah blah blah, and it is almost never true. There is a huge difference between "keeping" fish and breeding fish imo.

On the other hand, apistos _do _need their water to be stable and clean. But that goes without saying. What fish wouldn't like stable, clean water? :icon_wink


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## davemonkey (Sep 21, 2008)

hoa101 said:


> As far as water params to "keep" apistos, I believe saying that they need soft and acidic water is not correct. I had posed that question many times myself, and the verdict was that most fish (inc. apistos) can adapt to all manner of water conditions. My water is pH 7.5 and GH 10°, and my Aggies are thriving. I don't expect they will ever breed, but that wasn't why I bought them.
> 
> During my research I noticed that alot of people tend to spread this impression that you can't keep X fish in Y parameters, blah blah blah, and it is almost never true. There is a huge difference between "keeping" fish and breeding fish imo.
> 
> On the other hand, apistos _do _need their water to be stable and clean. But that goes without saying. What fish wouldn't like stable, clean water? :icon_wink


I've seen this first-hand with Discus. Some of the most beautiful and healthy Dicus I've seen were in Houton Aquarium Wharehouse living in Houston's tap water (very hard water with high pH). 

I'm not so interested in breeding Apistos as I am just keeping them. I just wanted a good number and a good male/female ratio to keep down potential agression between males (if that is a problem).


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## davemonkey (Sep 21, 2008)

I ordered 5 of them along with a school of _Rasbora rubrodorsalis_. I let you know how it goes.


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

I would just keep an eye on them pairing up and and possibly harrassing the less dominant/odd-one-out one. If you get the amazingly miraculous chance that you get like, 1-2 males and the rest females, I can't see this being a problem, as a lot of apistos form harem groups (1male, multiple females) in the wild. This is what I'm actually aiming for myself when I get my 90gl goin. 
If you do notice you get that ratio, then that's awesome, but if you don't, just keep an eye and maybe once you notice one gets a bit more harassed, trade it in or something.


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## davemonkey (Sep 21, 2008)

Just to update, I got 5 Apistos from InvertzFactory.com as well as a school of _Rasbora rubrodorsalis_. The fish looked GREAT, in excellent health, and were already scouting out the aquarium after just 10 minutes from being out of the box.

THANKS!!


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

That's great! i hope you'll post pics when you can. In that tank, I think it's doubtful that you'll be able to keep more than one male, so you should keep an eye out for aggression. Apistos are harem breeders, so 1 male and a few females is the best way to go. Enjoy the fish!


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## davemonkey (Sep 21, 2008)

Finally got a chance to get a good pic. He or she is still just a wee baby (about 1" or something along that line).


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

Nice pic.

Yes, he really is quite small as he's still not showing any fin elongation. Still, I'm quessing male. I've never really seen the blue spangles around the eye and outlining the lateral line near the head region on any of my females. Although, on tank breed supercolor varieties I have had some females express plenty of red on their fins.


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

Most apisto females will show black along the leading rays of the ventral fins at a fairly young age. My guess would also be that the fish in the pic is a male.

Apistogramma are awesome fish.


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## davemonkey (Sep 21, 2008)

The latest news is my Apistos are breeding and I am not so certain these are _A. agassizi _anymore. There are about 50 - 60 eggs (as opposed to 150 that _A. agassizi_ lay) and the male's caudel fin does not have the typical spade-shape, rather it is pointed at the ends. Here are some quick shots:
*Male*
















*Female*
















*"cave" made of a shallow dug-out and Anubias root*








The pics are not great quality, but should be clear enough for an ID. Any thoughts?
-Dave


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## Cardinal Tetra (Feb 26, 2006)

Those look similar to cacatuoides... 
Regardless they are looking great and healthy! Are you going to try to raise the young in a separate tank or just keep them there?


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

Not sure what type of apisto but agree that it is not an agassizi. As you noted the caudal fin on a male agassizi is elongated and comes to a point in the center. Your pic looks more like a bitaeniata which has the lyre shaped caudal fin but I don't think it is a bitaeniata either. A bitaeniata would have two defined lateral stripes.


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

Thats awesome. How many pairs do you have laying eggs now?


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## davemonkey (Sep 21, 2008)

I just talked with Niko and saw some pics from Nemsley, we're thinking these are in the caucatoides group. I don't think the eggs should be red though, rather should be a yellow color. Perhaps these are sterile eggs as the fish are still pretty young. I don't plan on taking the young out if they hatch...I really thought it would be a few months before I had to think about that!  I also had serious doubts about breeding since I use very hard tap water in this tank. Go figure.

I'm not sure how many pair I have. I bought 5 fish as babies and just hoped I'd get at least 1 male and 1 female. My opinion so far is that I have 4 males and 1 female, but like I said, they are all still very young. The male in the picture is still just over 1.25" in length.

-Dave


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## davemonkey (Sep 21, 2008)

Just to update: These are _Apisto. cacatuoides_. I have 2 females and 3 males. I went and bought some cheap 4" clay saucers to make caves for them and the fish seem to appreciate that. Thankfully, the saucers are small enough to cover with plants and go largely unnoticed.

The eggs did not hatch and the female recycled them. However, she is still in her bright yellow/black breeding colors, so maybe a new batch soon? She does spend alot of time by her cave.

I'm thinking about removing one of the males to a seperate tank to even out the male/female ratio. Is that cruel to keep a male by himself (he'd be in company with a group of Black Skirts and Platy's).

-Dave


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You shouldn't have issues keeping a male by himself.

Congrats on the spawn, and I'm sure you'll get more in the near future!


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## Nymsley (Mar 24, 2009)

dave, I think you need to change the title of your thread 

I don't know if its cruel to keep a male without conspecifics but I had to do it to my "extra" male too. To me, its better than letting him get cornered and beat up by the breeding pair.

My female was ready to breed again too (just a couple of days without yellow/gold) soon after her first brood disappeared.


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

Apisto eggs are red and the ones in your pic looked fine. If the female is still guarding an area it is possible the eggs hatched and you just can't see the fry. They are close to impossible to see unless you can catch them moving.


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## davemonkey (Sep 21, 2008)

Lauralee, Nymsley, RMC, 
Thanks for the info! I'll feed daphnia in that area more often then just in case.

You know, I can change thread titles on the other website, but it's because I'm a mod there and all I do is click "Edit Thread". I can't seem to figure out how to edit a title here. Any help? It really should read "Apisto cacatuoides".


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## GTR (May 27, 2009)

Edit then press Advanced and the title should show as an editable field.


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

As stated above, even if the fry are free-swimming, they are impossibly to see within the first week or so- they are soooo tiny and camouflaged. 
When my Agassizii spawned, I actually didnt know they had (though I did notice eggs a few times and then they were being eaten), unil what I thought was a bunch of mulm on the bottom of the tank sorta moving along the bottom. Turned out the mulm was actually a group of just barely free swimming fry, yolk sacks still attached.


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## Nymsley (Mar 24, 2009)

rmc said:


> Apisto eggs are red and the ones in your pic looked fine.


They can be yellow/cream too.




SearunSimpson said:


> As stated above, even if the fry are free-swimming, they are impossibly to see within the first week or so- they are soooo tiny and camouflaged.


Tiny indeed!

This was a fry from the first egg clutch about 6-7 days after the eggs hatched. Its inside a 3mL syringe.



dave, I feel like I'm stalking your threads. Sorry if its bothering you :x


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## davemonkey (Sep 21, 2008)

Holy COW! I forgot all about this thread. Well, I did end up with several fry from a second clutch. They lived for a few weeks but none made it to maturity. 

About 3 or 4 months ago I tore down the entire tank (moved to Liberty from Houston, TX) and gave the fish away to a guy in Houston who is now keeping them. The tank itself is gone and replaced with a 125 that I had intended to use for _A. macmasteri_. However, my dominant male died of mysterious causes and the subordinate male had been so beaten by the dominant, that he eventually faded away. So, I now have 4 plump females that are begging me for a new fella.

By the way, if a mod is reading this can you please change the title of the thread to "Apistogramma cacatuoides"? Thanks.

-Dave


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

davemonkey said:


> By the way, if a mod is reading this can you please change the title of the thread to "Apistogramma cacatuoides"? Thanks.
> 
> -Dave


Done. BTW, you can do this yourself by going to your first post, clicking "edit," then "go advanced." roud:

Look forward to seeing some pics of your new 125!


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## davemonkey (Sep 21, 2008)

Thanks! And thanks for the instructions as well.

Yeah, I'll get a fresh pic of the 125 up in my journal as soon as I can get photobucket to cooperate for me again.  It looks NICE!!! (in my humble opinion... )


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