# Help! Red cherry shrimps keep dying



## larrysin

Hi everyone, 

I started keeping shrimps 3 months ago and still trying to make it right. I've lost a hundred of them and been extremely afraid of experimenting by myself, so I'm really appreciated if you can give me some advice.

Current tank:
70L (0.6x0.9x0.13)
Ammonia = 0, Nitrite = 0
KH = 3dKH, gH = 5dkh
pH >= 7.6, my kit cannot detect higher pH

Some background:
In May, I got 100 shrimps from a friend and slowly acclimated them to the tank in an hour. In several days later, there were some deaths; no ammonia and nitrite were found, so I suspected it just due to they are stressed of water change. Then I thought things were going well. Many of them showed up when I put algae wafer to the tank, and there were new shrimplets. I had rarely seen more than 20 around, but I read that they tended to hide and my tank was heavily planted. I fed them 3 times a week and did water change (treated with Nutrafin Aqua Plus) every 2 weeks. There was an oily film on the surface sometimes for unknown reasons; I just increased the water current for a while, and it got better. After 2 months, I still didn't see many of them, and I doubted if they were still hiding. I took out all plants, and damn, they were only around 10 adults with a swarm of shrimplets. I was shocked. 

I decided to start again. I changed water completely and only put in a small bunch of java moss. 2 weeks ago, I acclimated new 20 shrimps from a different source; they were all alive at first few days. I don't feed them external food to avoid any ammonia spike; I think they can find food from available moss. They are still dying, I've lost nearly 10. I keep seeing oily film on the surface, but it disappears when I increase the water current for a while.

I spent time searching online and tried many things, but they kept dying. Now I'm completely clueless about other things that I need to check. Please advise!


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## Zoidburg

Is this a new tank or an old tank? 

Has the tank ever been treated for copper? (would be recommended to get a copper test done, LFS should be able to do it)

Do you know the nitrate levels?

Temperature of the tank?

What type of filter are you using?

What are you feeding them?

GH is on the low end, unless they were raised in 5 GH. It's better to keep them in 6-8 GH.

It's recommended to acclimate for 2-4 hours, although I doubt that a short acclimation would result in so many deaths.



More specific and longer list of questions can be found here.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...nnaire-help-identify-problem-your-shrimp.html


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## roadmaster

Hikari Crab Quisine pellet's ,Algae wafer once or twice a week would help if newly established tank has little in the way of algae or mulm.
What is substrate? Is water from the tap used for water changes or is water being altered?
Any meds or fertilizer's containing copper been used?
CO2 injection? Temperature?
Fishes also in the tank?
No other little hands maybe have access to the tank/food's?
Any wood in the tank that was not boiled or cleaned before placement?
Shrimps in my experience are sensitive to sudden changes that could occur for various reasons, and some answer's to question's might help identify or eliminate possible issues.
Would not get caught up in chasing some magical pH,GH, but rather strive for stable tank parameter's from day to day.week to week.


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## H_C

The only thing i can say is if your tank needs to be established with decent amount of bacteria with minimal water changes imo. The other thing is , have you seen any molts? The one in the pics doesnt show any obvious signs.


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## larrysin

Thanks for your replies. I will try to provide more information.
@Zoidburg
Is this a new tank or an old tank? 
- I cycled the tank in 20 days. When I put the second batch in, the tank had been used for 2 months.

Has the tank ever been treated for copper? (would be recommended to get a copper test done, LFS should be able to do it)
- I will try to test it. 

Do you know the nitrate levels?
- No, I don't.

Temperature of the tank?
- Around 26 degrees. I don't use heater or light.

What type of filter are you using?
- HOB filter, I use sponge to cover the intake

What are you feeding them?
- I use Hikari Algae Wafers. I take the leftover after 30 mins.
@Roadmsater
Currently, I've taken out all substrate. I treat water with Nutrafin Aqua Plus and store them in a tub for several days. The temperature is around 26 degree. No CO2 injection, fertilizer, other fishes or wood.
@H_C
I saw some white shells around the tank, so I guess they don't have any problem with molting. 

Besides, I just remember that a small part the tank has direct sunlight for some hours in the morning.


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## H_C

"Besides, I just remember that a small part the tank has direct sunlight for some hours in the morning."

That might be the problem, you might be cooking them if your live in a hot climate


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## larrysin

The temperature at my place fluctuates from 28 to 31, so I don't know if it is too hot for them. I will try covering the tank to get more stable temp.


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## KayakJimW

larrysin said:


> *pH >= 7.6, my kit cannot detect higher pH*


I'd start here. Grab a High Range pH test kit or take a water sample to a LFS and ask them to test it for you.

7.6 isn't bad, but if its actually much higher then there's the problem.


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## roadmaster

Hikari crab Quisine mentioned would help provide calcium to their diet which in turn would help with molting.GH says this might be contributer if diet is lacking calcium.
Would not rely on a little bit of moss and bare bottom tank to provide much in the way of food for shrimps.
Need water used for water changes to be same as water in the tank with no pH up or down potion's,or buffer's being introduced suddenly.IMHO


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## houseofcards

larrysin;10438282w said:


> - I cycled the tank in 20 days. When I put the second batch in, the tank had been used for 2 months.


For me this is the big one. I find invertebrates don't do well in new tanks even if tank is technically cycled.

Also if you took out ALL of the substrate you most likely have an uncycled tank again. How big is the tank?


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## clownplanted

larrysin said:


> The temperature at my place fluctuates from 28 to 31, so I don't know if it is too hot for them. I will try covering the tank to get more stable temp.


That is WAY too hot for them if the tank temp is close to the same as the house temp. the Max you want for them is 26c(27c MAX). They are cooking. Blow a fan over the top of the tank. This causes faster evaporation which naturally cools the tank. What is the exact temp in the tank??? Keep in mind the warmer the temp the higher chance they have for bacterial infections. So while they "may" survive at higher temps there is a lot higher chance for issue.


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## natemcnutty

Your water is too soft. You need to add more calcium for them to molt properly. They can live for quite a while with too little calcium, but they will eventually die off. I'd get that dGH up to at least 6 if not a bit more.

Also, while the temps should be lower, they can handle higher temps *if* you keep parameters in check and have excellent oxygenation. I'd still shoot for 26C to be your max, preferably closer to 24C 

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## houseofcards

OK so far we have.

Temp too high
Immature bio-filter
Water too soft

Not a shrimp expert, but I'm not convinced the shrimp would die off that quickly from the water being too soft. I did breed RCS a few years back and was selling a ton of them and I have very soft water. I just checked my tank where I have a new group living for about a month and the KH is 2 and GH is 4. I do feed a calcium enriched food.


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## clownplanted

houseofcards said:


> OK so far we have.
> 
> Temp too high
> Immature bio-filter
> Water too soft
> 
> Not a shrimp expert, but I'm not convinced the shrimp would die off that quickly from the water being too soft. I did breed RCS a few years back and was selling a ton of them and I have very soft water. I just checked my tank where I have a new group living for about a month and the KH is 2 and GH is 4. I do feed a calcium enriched food.


And you could argue that they could survive in the temp as well. What temp did you have yours in? The thing is when you start combining problems well then even though some are close all it takes is one to get say a bacterial infection and its a domino effect. Not saying that is what is going on here but very much a possibility. By not having them in the optimal conditions their immune system will not be up to par and more prone to problem/s.


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## houseofcards

clownplanted said:


> And you could argue that they could survive in the temp as well. What temp did you have yours in? The thing is when you start combining problems well then even though some are close all it takes is one to get say a bacterial infection and its a domino effect. Not saying that is what is going on here but very much a possibility. * By not having them in the optimal conditions their immune system will not be up to par and more prone to problem/s*.


100% agree.

My temp is much lower 72-75. I'm just going by how quickly he lost them.


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## natemcnutty

houseofcards said:


> 100% agree.
> 
> My temp is much lower 72-75. I'm just going by how quickly he lost them.


Your username is really fitting for what probably happened to him 

Here's my bet:

High temperature causes faster growth which increases the need for calcium (which he is low on). That leads to stress and illnesses alongside deaths from improper molts. Now you have a sick colony, and putting new stock in just infected the new livestock which is why they didn't last very long.

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## houseofcards

natemcnutty said:


> Your username is really fitting for what probably happened to him
> 
> Here's my bet:
> 
> High temperature causes faster growth which increases the need for calcium (which he is low on). That leads to stress and illnesses alongside deaths from improper molts. Now you have a sick colony, and putting new stock in just infected the new livestock which is why they didn't last very long.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Sounds plausible to me. And yes a planted tank is a house of cards, if one element is weak or missing the whole thing comes crashing down, if it's two elements even quicker.


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## clownplanted

natemcnutty said:


> Your username is really fitting for what probably happened to him
> 
> Here's my bet:
> 
> High temperature causes faster growth which increases the need for calcium (which he is low on). That leads to stress and illnesses alongside deaths from improper molts. Now you have a sick colony, and putting new stock in just infected the new livestock which is why they didn't last very long.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Agree 100%.


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## larrysin

Thanks for all inputs. Here's what I've done/found out so far:
- There is no copper
- Moved the tank to avoid direct sunlight and installed a small fan on top to cool it down
- Feed them with Hikari crab cuisine/algae wafer every 2 days

Issues left:
- pH of tank water is 8.9, and pH of tap water is 8.0. I'm not sure what pump pH up. I treat water with Nutrafin Aqua Plus, and the tank is 70L. No substrate. Have 2 small pieces of Lava rocks to tie moss and a DIY cement background. I read that lava rocks don't affect pH, and the cement background was used in another koi tank for several months. 

- About raising GH, I researched and found 2 ways: adding chemicals or calcareous substrate. But the thing is adding calcareous substrate will raise my pH which is already high. Will use chemicals really adjust my water to be more friendly for shrimps? If it's the case, which one should I use?


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## H_C

larrysin said:


> Thanks for all inputs. Here's what I've done/found out so far:
> 
> - There is no copper
> 
> - Moved the tank to avoid direct sunlight and installed a small fan on top to cool it down
> 
> - Feed them with Hikari crab cuisine/algae wafer every 2 days
> 
> 
> 
> Issues left:
> 
> - pH of tank water is 8.9, and pH of tap water is 8.0. I'm not sure what pump pH up. I treat water with Nutrafin Aqua Plus, and the tank is 70L. No substrate. Have 2 small pieces of Lava rocks to tie moss and a DIY cement background. I read that lava rocks don't affect pH, and the cement background was used in another koi tank for several months.
> 
> 
> 
> - About raising GH, I researched and found 2 ways: adding chemicals or calcareous substrate. But the thing is adding calcareous substrate will raise my pH which is already high. Will use chemicals really adjust my water to be more friendly for shrimps? If it's the case, which one should I use?




Cant help you with the chemicals however there are plenty substrates/soils out there that lower ph and kh , i use the dennerle scapers soil. 


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## geisterwald

Buy some GH booster. I use @nilocg's which can be found on the forum (or his website), though there are "cleaner" boosters (raise TDS less) designed specifically for shrimp on the market; people seem to like SaltyShrimp. Personally I don't think you need to get fancy with it but your move. You can also get liquid boosters that you won't need to dissolve beforehand.

To use it, you'll slowly bump up the GH of the tank by adding the booster over time until you get the tank GH to the level you want. Then, every time you do a water change, you'll add some booster to the new water so that the GH remains the same.

I'm also guessing the cement background is what's raising the pH. Just because it worked with koi doesn't mean that it'll work with shrimp; shrimp are on the whole much more sensitive to varying parameters than fish are (and koi are particularly hardy). Can you take it out?


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## clownplanted

Yes there are many products as @geisterwald said that will help raise the GH. I use Salty Shrimp GH+ in my CRS tank which is a cleaner tds and also dissolves better than others I have noticed. But as he said you do not need to get fancy with it and could use a different GH booster if you want. I also use NilocG GH booster for my 60 gallon tank. That stuff works great as well and will give you what you need to raise the GH without messing with other parameters. I also agree that the cement is most likely what is raising your PH. Just go show here is the parameters you typically want for Cherry Shrimp.

PH: 6.4–7.6, KH: 2–5, GH: 6–8
TDS: 150–250 Water temp: 69-74F


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## natemcnutty

H_C said:


> Cant help you with the chemicals however there are plenty substrates/soils out there that lower ph and kh , i use the dennerle scapers soil.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hopefully not with an 8 pH tap. Using substrate to lower pH is not a viable solution here - you should only user RO water with those to make them last.

GH/KH can climb significantly if you top off evaporation with tap water. Perform several 50% water changes every few days to bring it back down. Also, you can look at pretreating your water change water with peat moss which will take out KH and lower pH. Might add tannins though.

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## H_C

natemcnutty said:


> Hopefully not with an 8 pH tap. Using substrate to lower pH is not a viable solution here - you should only user RO water with those to make them last.
> 
> GH/KH can climb significantly if you top off evaporation with tap water. Perform several 50% water changes every few days to bring it back down. Also, you can look at pretreating your water change water with peat moss which will take out KH and lower pH. Might add tannins though.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk




If im not mistaken op hasnt mentioned anything about other fish being in the tank so only shrimp. If thats the case you dont need to be doing water changes only top offs. So yes the substrate would help because its not as if theyre doing 100% water change...


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## natemcnutty

H_C said:


> If im not mistaken op hasnt mentioned anything about other fish being in the tank so only shrimp. If thats the case you dont need to be doing water changes only top offs. So yes the substrate would help because its not as if theyre doing 100% water change...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Many things wrong with this method. 

First, topping off with tap will increase both KH and GH. How much depends on your tap, but if there water you are adding had less than what is in the tank, you are still increasing mineral content even though you may be temporarily reducing concentration (so TDS, GH, and KH appear to go down because volume of water increases, but you are actually adding however much GH and KH is in your tap.

Second, based on #1, you are adding KH every time you top off, so you are wasting your substrate's capacity to buffer KH. How much depends on your substrate of choice and KH of your tap, but it's still a stupid, wasteful thing to do if you are relying on the buffering for shrimp.

Finally, you will not keep shrimp long term without water changes. To steal a Cars reference, it's like only filling up gas and never getting new tires - short term gain, long term loss. You will blow a tire, and you may or may not be lucky enough to save it.



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## natemcnutty

H_C said:


> If im not mistaken op hasnt mentioned anything about other fish being in the tank so only shrimp. If thats the case you dont need to be doing water changes only top offs. So yes the substrate would help because its not as if theyre doing 100% water change...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Many things wrong with this method. 

First, topping off with tap will increase both KH and GH. How much depends on your tap, but even if the water you are adding has less than what is in the tank, you are still increasing mineral content even though you may be temporarily reducing concentration (so TDS, GH, and KH appear to go down because volume of water increases, but you are actually adding however much GH and KH is in your tap.

Second, based on #1, you are adding KH every time you top off, so you are wasting your substrate's capacity to buffer KH. How much depends on your substrate of choice and KH of your tap, but it's still a stupid, wasteful thing to do if you are relying on the buffering for shrimp.

Finally, you will not keep shrimp long term without water changes. To steal a Cars reference, it's like only filling up gas and never getting new tires - short term gain, long term loss. You will blow a tire, and you may or may not be lucky enough to save it.

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## H_C

natemcnutty said:


> Many things wrong with this method.
> 
> First, topping off with tap will increase both KH and GH. How much depends on your tap, but if there water you are adding had less than what is in the tank, you are still increasing mineral content even though you may be temporarily reducing concentration (so TDS, GH, and KH appear to go down because volume of water increases, but you are actually adding however much GH and KH is in your tap.
> 
> Second, based on #1, you are adding KH every time you top off, so you are wasting your substrate's capacity to buffer KH. How much depends on your substrate of choice and KH of your tap, but it's still a stupid, wasteful thing to do if you are relying on the buffering for shrimp.
> 
> Finally, you will not keep shrimp long term without water changes. To steal a Cars reference, it's like only filling up gas and never getting new tires - short term gain, long term loss. You will blow a tire, and you may or may not be lucky enough to save it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk




Thanks for the essay.....
Each to their own however there are many people that do minimal water changes (once few months) or no water changes and have healthy colonies of shrimp. 

Also you cant compare a car to shrimp tank its completely different and doesnt make sense, who changes their tyres each time they fill up with gas.


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## clownplanted

H_C said:


> Thanks for the essay.....
> Each to their own however there are many people that do minimal water changes (once few months) or no water changes and have healthy colonies of shrimp.
> 
> Also you cant compare a car to shrimp tank its completely different and doesnt make sense, who changes their tyres each time they fill up with gas.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You really need to refresh the water from time to time. I agree with Nate. You dont have to do large water changes and as often as say your dosing full EI but shrimp need clean water.


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## natemcnutty

H_C said:


> Thanks for the essay.....
> Each to their own however there are many people that do minimal water changes (once few months) or no water changes and have healthy colonies of shrimp.
> 
> Also you cant compare a car to shrimp tank its completely different and doesnt make sense, who changes their tyres each time they fill up with gas.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry if the movie reference didn't make sense. Spoiler alert - Lightning McQueen blows out both tires in a NASCAR type race because he tried to shortcut by not changing tires...

In any case, my issue is that what you are recommending is a terrible practice that wastes someone's money. You can have your opinion, but it's wrong according to the manufacturers and science. I'm just trying to point that out so you can learn and others won't think it is ok to do. I'd hate for someone to spend that much on soil to exhaust it in months and lose their livestock.

And even though you changed tune on the water changes, even once every few months is still not good enough for most shrimp unless your tap is exactly perfect for the parameters they should be kept in. While it may work for you short term, people read these comments to learn, and that's just bad information for them to work off of. 

Again, please take this as me trying to provide as accurate of information as I can for those lending here from search engines and such. Don't believe me, ask the manufacturer or come join us on FB groups and ask the pros 

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## Surf

> - About raising GH, I researched and found 2 ways: adding chemicals or calcareous substrate. But the thing is adding calcareous substrate will raise my pH which is already high. Will use chemicals really adjust my water to be more friendly for shrimps? If it's the case, which one should I use?


The typical chemicals used to increase GH are calcium and magnesium sulfate or Calcium (Ca/Mg) and magnesium chloride. Assuming pure chemicals with Both will increase your GH. Neither will increase PH. However plant consumption of these would produce some Ca/Mg carbonates. So you kh will slowly rise. But Ca/Mg carbonates will not push ph above 7. 

So if you add just C/Mg carbonate you will increase GH but not increase your PH which is already above 8. Unfortunately Ca/Mg carbonate only dissolve in acidic water. Your water is basic at a PH of 8. So adding these carbonates directly to your tank would not significantly affect GH. 

However is you get a bottle of carbonated water and mix calcium and magnesium carbonate at 3 parts calcium and 1 part magnesium (by volume) and then add the Ca/MG carbonate mix to the carbonated water it will bubble off co2 and dissolve in the water. IF you then allow the bottle to site uncapped for a week you should have water with 300 to 400ppm GH with an equal KH at a PH of 7. Any access Ca/Mg will stay solid at the bottom of the bottle. You can then use a dilution calculator to determine how much you need to add to get a GH of 6 (100ppm)

Dilution calculator:


Note I have not done this on my own aquarium. However most hard well water comes from water that is in a limestone reservoir. Limestone is about 5 to 20% magnesium with the remainder bing Calcium. The 3 to 1 mix of Ca to Mg I am recommending is typical for fresh water surface streams which is were shrimp can be found in nature. So Using carbonated water and adding Ca/Mg carbonates is as close as you can get to a natural chemical that is not toxic at the desired dose.

Note many people believe that increasing KH increase PH. This belief is true for Sodium carbonate which many people use to increase their KH. unlike Ca/Mg carbonates ,Sodium carbonate dissolves at any PH and as a result it will push the PH above 8. Potassium carbonate is similar to sodium carbonate and will also have the same affect on PH. 



> pH of tank water is 8.9, and pH of tap water is 8.0. I'm not sure what pump pH up.


Plants need potassium to live. Many people using fertilizers are applying potassium nitrate (for nitrogen) and potassium phosphate (for phosphorous). As the nitrate and phosphate are absorbed by plants an excess of potassium will build up in the aquarium in the form of potassium carbonate.That will push your PH up in your aquarium.


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## Surf

> Not a shrimp expert, but I'm not convinced the shrimp would die off that quickly from the water being too soft.


Keep in mind a GH test measures the calcium and magnesium together. In a healthy stream you will typically see about 3 times more calcium than magnesium. However if you are using a fertilizer that doesn't contain calcium (most on the market don't) then you could have very little calcium and a lot of magnesium in the tank. which I suspect is harmful to shrimp. The GH test will not be able to tell you what the calcium magnesium ratio is . So a tank could have a GH reading of 6 but no calcium and the shrimp would die off. 

For myself it took me a couple of tries before I could keep the shrimp alive. They typically died off in a couple of weeks. I didn't have enough calcium in the water. I personally found i only needed a couple of degrees of hardness for them to do well without molting problems in natemcnutty's tank with his water conditions he needs 6. In my case it is a lot less. The exact target for a person will very depending on their water chemistry. Since we don't know the exact cause of the problem adding a little bit more calcium to get the GH up a little bit is worth a try.

If your shrimp are molting fine at a GH of 4 don't worry about it.


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## natemcnutty

Surf said:


> Keep in mind a GH test measures the calcium and magnesium together. In a healthy stream you will typically see about 3 times more calcium than magnesium. However if you are using a fertilizer that doesn't contain calcium (most on the market don't) then you could have very little calcium and a lot of magnesium in the tank. which I suspect is harmful to shrimp. The GH test will not be able to tell you what the calcium magnesium ratio is . So a tank could have a GH reading of 6 but no calcium and the shrimp would die off.
> 
> For myself it took me a couple of tries before I could keep the shrimp alive. They typically died off in a couple of weeks. I didn't have enough calcium in the water. I personally found i only needed a couple of degrees of hardness for them to do well without molting problems in natemcnutty's tank with his water conditions he needs 6. In my case it is a lot less. The exact target for a person will very depending on their water chemistry. Since we don't know the exact cause of the problem adding a little bit more calcium to get the GH up a little bit is worth a try.
> 
> If your shrimp are molting fine at a GH of 4 don't worry about it.


Actually, the amount of calcium I use has more to do with the pH I keep caridina cantonensis at. Based on what I've read from some research papers, higher pH (7.4 in my case) has been shown to reduce the solubility as well as uptake of calcium. They measured calcium and magnesium content of the carapace and found higher quantities of both in more acidic conditions (5.5ish if I can remember right).

From what I understand, this is why most bee specific remineralizers use a 4:1 Ca:Mg because it's more appropriate for acidic water conditions. I have been using 3:1 with closer to 6 dGH for my CRS as I found I had molting issues keeping a cull/QT tank at 4 dGH (I'd try to claim is as an experiment, but really, I was just trying to cheap out on remineralizer... Lol).

I do a lot of experiments with my CRS as I have two test tanks in addition to my work tank and two home tanks, so most of this is just me testing what I've read or been told to see if I should be doing something different in my main tanks.

I've given away all my neos at this point, but I always had to keep them at around 7-8 dGH with a pH of 7.4. For the OP, I still think they need higher dGH, especially at higher temps where the shrimp are growing faster. Just because shrimp are molting does not indicate they are getting sufficient minerals. It's the same as plants pearling - that doesn't mean they are getting everything they need.


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## larrysin

Thanks guys for insights!

As someone mentioned RO water earlier, I tried testing water from a water dispenser. Its parameters: 3dKH, 4dGH, pH 7.4 which has a quite low pH, so I will use this as water source. I've also taken out the cement background, so hopefully, pH should be acceptable.

I searched and found that "SaltyShrimp - Soft Water Mineral GH+" seems like a good fit for my purpose, raising GH to 6. I will give it a try and see how things go. 

For water change, is changing 20% in 70L every month too little? I read that shrimps don't release much bioload, and changing water a lot can stress them out.



natemcnutty said:


> GH/KH can climb significantly if you top off evaporation with tap water. Perform several 50% water changes every few days to bring it back down.
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Please correct me if I got it wrong. Given current parameters, isn't raising GH necessary?


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## Surf

> As someone mentioned RO water earlier, I tried testing water from a water dispenser. Its parameters: 3dKH, 4dGH, pH 7.4 which has a quite low pH, so I will use this as water source.


RO water should have the parameters of GH doer, Kh zero. PH right out of the RO filter will be between 5 and 6. When CO2 is allowed to outgas, the PH will stabilize at 7.. The water dispenser you used gave filtered water or remineralized RO water. 



> For water change, is changing 20% in 70L every month too little? I read that shrimps don't release much bioload, and changing water a lot can stress them out.


Large water changes are OK as long has the new water has similar ph, KH, GH and temperature. If you only do a water change once per month you likely have to periodically add water due to evaporation. Every time you add water to momplenstate for evaporation you are adding more minerals which will cause GH (calcium and magnesium hardness) and TDS (Total dissolve solids) to increase which may not be good if it climbs significantly above you tap water parameters. Then when you do a water change Gh would drop causing more street on your shrimp I frequently did 50% water change with no obvious harm to my strip. I think you would be better off doing a small water change whenever you have to add water to compensate for evaporation. So if you need to add water to the aquarium, remove some additional water and then refill the tank to its full level.



> Based on what I've read from some research papers, higher pH (7.4 in my case) has been shown to reduce the solubility as well as uptake of calcium.


At a PH above 7 calcium and magnesium carbonate have zero solubility in water. So if your PH stays above 7 calcium and magnesium carbonate levels will drop. And if all of your calcium and magnesium is in the form of carbonates pants and shrimp will not be able to absorb it from the water column. In acidic conditions carbonates dissolve easily. 

It is important to note GH boosters don't contains calcium or magnesium carbonate because in many tanks they will not dissolve. Instead they have calcium or magnesium sulfates or chlorides which will dissolve at any PH.

Bump:


> As someone mentioned RO water earlier, I tried testing water from a water dispenser. Its parameters: 3dKH, 4dGH, pH 7.4 which has a quite low pH, so I will use this as water source.


RO water should have the parameters of GH doer, Kh zero. PH right out of the RO filter will be between 5 and 6. When CO2 is allowed to outgas, the PH will stabilize at 7.. The water dispenser you used gave filtered water or remineralized RO water. 



> For water change, is changing 20% in 70L every month too little? I read that shrimps don't release much bioload, and changing water a lot can stress them out.


Large water changes are OK as long has the new water has similar ph, KH, GH and temperature. If you only do a water change once per month you likely have to periodically add water due to evaporation. Every time you add water to momplenstate for evaporation you are adding more minerals which will cause GH (calcium and magnesium hardness) and TDS (Total dissolve solids) to increase which may not be good if it climbs significantly above you tap water parameters. Then when you do a water change Gh would drop causing more street on your shrimp I frequently did 50% water change with no obvious harm to my strip. I think you would be better off doing a small water change whenever you have to add water to compensate for evaporation. So if you need to add water to the aquarium, remove some additional water and then refill the tank to its full level.



> Based on what I've read from some research papers, higher pH (7.4 in my case) has been shown to reduce the solubility as well as uptake of calcium. [/QUOTE
> 
> At a PH above 7 calcium and magnesium carbonate have zero solubility in water. So if your PH stays above 7 calcium and magnesium carbonate levels will drop. And if all of your calcium and magnesium is in the form of carbonates pants and shrimp will not be able to absorb it from the water column. In acidic conditions carbonates dissolve easily.
> 
> It is important to note GH boosters don't contains calcium or magnesium carbonate because in many tanks they will not dissolve. Instead they have calcium or magnesium sulfates or chlorides which will dissolve at any PH.


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## natemcnutty

larrysin said:


> Thanks guys for insights!
> 
> As someone mentioned RO water earlier, I tried testing water from a water dispenser. Its parameters: 3dKH, 4dGH, pH 7.4 which has a quite low pH, so I will use this as water source. I've also taken out the cement background, so hopefully, pH should be acceptable.
> 
> I searched and found that "SaltyShrimp - Soft Water Mineral GH+" seems like a good fit for my purpose, raising GH to 6. I will give it a try and see how things go.
> 
> For water change, is changing 20% in 70L every month too little? I read that shrimps don't release much bioload, and changing water a lot can stress them out.
> 
> 
> Please correct me if I got it wrong. Given current parameters, isn't raising GH necessary?


Yeah, some of those "RO" water dispensers have now started adding minerals back in to deal with the flat, bitter taste. That's a great base to work with for neos, and you'll just need to add enough to get that GH to at least 6 dGH (though I'd personally shoot for 8 drops which means somewhere between 7-8 dGH).

As for water changes, it is true that shrimp have very little bioload, but there are other benefits to water changes outside of dealing with nitrates. Water conditions are always changing based on plants and shrimp absorbing nutrients, evaporation, decay of plant and wood, etc., and water changes help us keep the water fresh and clean. There are also gasses, enzymes, bacteria, and other trace minerals that don't last that long that get refreshed by doing a water change.

I would try to do 10% a week or 20% every couple of weeks if you can. Not that you need to do this, but more that it is OK - I've done 50% (10 gallon) weekly water changes with CRS for over a year without issue. The biggest key is to mineralize the correct GH ahead of time, match temp, and then change the water slowly (takes me about an hour for my 29 to do 15 gallons). It's a great time to clean and trim while you wait [emoji14]

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## roadmaster

I believe the increase in calcium to the shrimps diet (mentioned Hikari crab quisine) and a few other's, can alleviate many issues without resorting to altering the water to increase hardness.
To soften hardness is another matter.
Unless I had very soft water,, I would expect the shrimps to be able to get the nutrient's needed through feeding's of calcium infused food's and source water.
Would be easy to test and see if a few week's did not lessen the problem's death's.


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## Buddy Duncan

50 RCS on the way.

Okay, Calcium in Diet. - Will Do.

I have a 30 gallon tank and a month ago got a 370 GPH SunSun Canister Filter w/built in 9 Watt UV light 
to kill Algae Spores and parasites. My water was Green and Cloudy.
Regular 55/75 gallon HOB (Aqueon) did nothing, nor did Seachem Clarity to clear water.
Tetra Algae control killed quite a few, emergency water change saved what was left.

Canister Works fantastic, by the way. Clearest water i've ever had.

In December i'll be getting a 55 Gallon tank also.

I currently have 5 Danios (Glowlights), 3 Panda Cories, 3 Panda Platies and 5 Riot Platies,
and one lonely leftover from awhile back, Gold White Cloud Mountain Minnow.

I plan on putting the RCS in the 30 Gallon.
Definately remove the Platies, Hold for the 55 gallon.
Question: Would the Danios, GWM Minnow, and Panda Cory be okay to keep in 30 with RCS?


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## natemcnutty

Buddy Duncan said:


> Question: Would the Danios, GWM Minnow, and Panda Cory be okay to keep in 30 with RCS?


If you want long term success, you will want to have a large, healthy, breeding colony in the new tank established before adding fish. Adding these to your existing fish is probably not going to be self sustaining.

I would let the 55 mature for a couple months before adding shrimp, then give them two to three months to establish, then add fish. 

Even adults may not be entirely safe, but babies will be actively hunted. Make sure there are tons of hiding places.


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## TheShrimpOtaku

Lol do you live in Flint Michigan? If so--well.....


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## Timothy13

4 things I would say to all new shrimp keepers:

1. Don't add them to the tank until it has quite a bit of algae.

2. Keep your shrimp tank near a window, as well as whatever kind of light fixture you have. The natural light works wonders for growing their favourite kinds of algae.

3. Don't give them ANY tank mates, not even other species of shrimp until they are an established colony (Meaning there have been more than one generation of babies).

4. Never clean the tank. By cleaning the tank, not only are you disturbing the shrimp, you are also wiping away much of their food.

If they don't do well under these conditions, there must be something in the water or substrate that's poisoning them.


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## yagigain

My girl friend saw some cherry shrimp at the aquarium and just had to have 3 for our well populated, planted guppy tank (4 x 4).

I didn't expect them to last long and they hid away in the plants when introduced. Fast forward 6 months and we had lots .. over 50 ... so many that they where intimidating the guppies ... they would wait for a sick guppy to 'kick the bucket' on the bottom and then race in and eat it. Not nice ... I really wanted them out of the tank ! They did keep it very clean I do admit. So I started scooping them out as many as I could, day after day and moved them to another smaller tank we have (just plants in that one). Soon we had 2 tanks full of shrimp ! 

Anyway something went wrong and we lost all of them in both tanks over the space of a month. I do not know why. The water is the same (rain water) .. I did change the lights to LED's to save on the power bill, but I can't see how that would affect them. It was winter, the temp was right on 24C the whole time ... everything was perfect .. the guppies where fine, plants are happy. 

Anyway I got my wish to return the tank to the guppies .. but it was certainly weird how they all died off like that.


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## Zoidburg

yagigain said:


> My girl friend saw some cherry shrimp at the aquarium and just had to have 3 for our well populated, planted guppy tank (4 x 4).
> 
> I didn't expect them to last long and they hid away in the plants when introduced. Fast forward 6 months and we had lots .. over 50 ... so many that they where intimidating the guppies ... they would wait for a sick guppy to 'kick the bucket' on the bottom and then race in and eat it. Not nice ... I really wanted them out of the tank ! They did keep it very clean I do admit. So I started scooping them out as many as I could, day after day and moved them to another smaller tank we have (just plants in that one). Soon we had 2 tanks full of shrimp !
> 
> Anyway something went wrong and we lost all of them in both tanks over the space of a month. I do not know why. The water is the same (rain water) .. I did change the lights to LED's to save on the power bill, but I can't see how that would affect them. It was winter, the temp was right on 24C the whole time ... everything was perfect .. the guppies where fine, plants are happy.
> 
> Anyway I got my wish to return the tank to the guppies .. but it was certainly weird how they all died off like that.


Rainwater by itself usually isn't good for the shrimp as there's no minerals in it.

Maybe the water got contaminated?

Another possible explanation is that something was used in the home that killed them off... something like bug spray, something heated up that released fumes (pans, oven cleaning, etc) or anything else that may have smelled or released fumes.


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## yagigain

Yeah, I do add epson salts during water changes to bring the hardness up just a little (from 0) and help stabilise the PH, I have permanent digital PH (sits around 6.8 to 7) and check GH manually occasionally. We had the shrimp for a good couple of years before they disappeared so quickly. I can't think of any fumes or chemicals that would affect both tanks as they are at different ends of the house. I remember that we did try a new type of food, which was brine dried shrimp (for the guppies) .. so perhaps that introduced a disease ? 

As for the rainwater, yeah I thought of contamination, I am not sure how that would happen but I actually had a vacuum pumper truck come out recently to suck the tank dry and clean it on the inside (after the die off).


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