# Algae ID: Blue-Green, Green Spot or Black Beard or ?



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

My Anubias had been doing very well, they survived a heavy coating of diatoms cleaned by my cleanup crew, the roots off the rhyzome are growing like mad, and the leaves look(ed) healthy.

I noticed today black spots.

Below are photos, pretty magnified.

I do have green spot algae on the glass, not a lot, been just scraping it off. So my first thought was this was it on the plants, but it looks much more black. It is also along the edge strongly.

A couple of these leaves had a very definite blue-green slime type algae, covering about a third of two leaves. Then one day it disappeared - gone. Leaf still there. I assumed something ate it. So that's my other thought, that this is spot versions of the same.

And of course there's the Black Beard Algae I hear a lot about but have never had run-ins with so not quite sure what it looks like.

Help?

Tank is a large (220G) low tech tank, dosing flourish comp (15 ml weekly), excel (15ml day), iron (15 ml day), relatively new (about 45 days), cycled, lightly stocked. Occasionally add a cap of phosphate and potassium.

Water is about 7.4ph, nitrates about 15ppm, phosphates and iron not measurable (except right after doses), about 8 dGH, 5 dKH. 

Light is (in this area) 4 LED+'s over about 25" of water to a sand substrate. I have been running the lights a bit long lately, probably 9-11 hours per day, as I haven't built the new timer so I have been doing it by hand.

My first thought is to cut way back on the light, but... 

What is it?




























If it's useful to see an enlargement the link below is a full resolution shot of the last one, which the edge shots show the algae. The color is pretty faithful - under full spectrum LED's it looks very black, and a bit dusty.

http://www.captivephotons.com/photos/i-hQMfFPf/0/O/i-hQMfFPf.jpg

The example showing some thread-like substance is the only case with threads; that may be something different, maybe not even natural.


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Interesting - it's a mystery to me.
But I can tell you one thing - it's not any one of the 3 algaes in your thread caption, i.e. blue-green (cyanobacteria); green spot; nor black beard as far as I can tell, unless the latter is in it's very early stages. But I don't believe that's the case.

It could possibly be the result of some nutrient deficiency in the plants.
Would be interesting to see/know how it develops over the coming days.
Wish I could help further - perhaps someone more knowledgeable in this area will chime in.


----------



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

discuspaul said:


> It could possibly be the result of some nutrient deficiency in the plants.


Well, I haven't noticed it on other plants (crypt wendtii, jungle val, wisteria). It looks to the eye like something on the leaf, not in it, but I admit it is very hard to judge that kind of thing through glass and water.


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

It's 'possible' it could the very start-up phase of black beard algae - as I mentioned, the next few days should shed more light.


----------



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

discuspaul said:


> It's 'possible' it could the very start-up phase of black beard algae - as I mentioned, the next few days should shed more light.


Is there anything I should do proactively?

I'd actually rather it just went away than develop so fully I know what it is. :frown:


----------



## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

I've had my bouts with that black spot algae on my anubias' in my 55 gallon. It forms several layer's so its difficult to remove. Your light is probably a bit much for a slow grower. Algae is very opportunistic, its going to find the weak link in the chain and exploit it. The best and fastest way to get rid of it, is too bleach dip the plant in 20 parts water 1 part bleach for about 30-45 seconds, then see if you can replant it in a shaded area. The other algae looks like thread algae same problem with the same solution. Also the tank is new so this doesn't surprise me.


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Linwood said:


> Is there anything I should do proactively?
> 
> I'd actually rather it just went away than develop so fully I know what it is. :frown:


 You could try spot dosing, at close range (with the water level lowered temporarily, and using a plastic syringe or test kit pipette), with either Seachem Excel, or H202 (hydrogen peroxide).
However of course, that may not do any good at all if it isn't BBA.


----------



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

discuspaul said:


> You could try spot dosing, at close range (with the water level lowered temporarily, and using a plastic syringe or test kit pipette), with either Seachem Excel, or H202 (hydrogen peroxide).
> However of course, that may not do any good at all if it isn't BBA.


Why lower the water (just to reach? i can reach with a syringe)?

I have both. If I did so, would I be able to tell from the reaction if it was BBA? I.e. if it doesn't change color it's something else? 

or will that most likely kill anything.

It's on every anubias leaf, so I have lots of targets.


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Linwood said:


> Why lower the water (just to reach? i can reach with a syringe)?
> 
> I have both. If I did so, would I be able to tell from the reaction if it was BBA? I.e. if it doesn't change color it's something else?
> 
> ...


 
Not only to more easily reach the affected areas, but to dose the H202 or Excel directly at full strength, with no surrounding water to dilute the dosing.

If it's BGA, you won't be able to immediately tell if the treatment is effective, since it will take a number of hours, certainly overnite, before you see any signs. If it's BGA, the color will eventually change from black/dark brown, to greyish/whitish, likely within 24 hours, at which point it has died and you should be able to remove it/brush if off with your fingers. 

And so yes, if it's something else, it won't change color or likely be affected in any tangible way.

But why do that now, instead of waiting a couple of days to have a better idea that it is in fact BGA. Or just try it on a couple of affected areas as a test to see if there is any effect.
If it is a nutrient deficiency, the dosing will not likely do anything to change it's current appearance.


----------



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

discuspaul said:


> Not only to more easily reach the affected areas, but to dose the H202 or Excel directly at full strength, with no surrounding water to dilute the dosing.


You mean lower them until the water level is below the leaves? That would be 150 gallons or so, and really stress the fish (plus I don't have that capacity to store water in preparation).

I'll just squirt some around a leaf or two with the filters not running, see what impact that has. I'll do that a bit later today (been out, got to deal with some other things first).

They look the same today so whatever it is is growing slowly.



discuspaul said:


> But why do that now, instead of waiting a couple of days to have a better idea that it is in fact BGA. Or just try it on a couple of affected areas as a test to see if there is any effect.
> If it is a nutrient deficiency, the dosing will not likely do anything to change it's current appearance.



Well, I figure catching anything early is always better. But I'll do both -- treat a couple leaves, leave the rest to see. I don't want to use much more excel than the usual dose at a time anyway (15 ml, but maybe 20 to get more coverage). That ought to be pretty strong on at least 1-2 leaves, if i can get my arm away without stirring it up.

I'll also (first) try wiping it off to see how attached it is, if for no other reason than to compare later.


----------



## cjstl (Mar 4, 2013)

Have you tried wiping it off? It looks like it might be the start of BGA to me (I have it bad in two tanks right now). If it is though, it should be very easy to wipe off with your finger. If it doesn't come off, it's something else.


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

Buy yourself a timer. They only cost $5 dollars at Walmart. My advise is to decrease your photoperiod. Try running your lights for 6 hours to see how that goes. It looks like your plants have a potassium deficiency.


----------



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

cjstl said:


> Have you tried wiping it off? It looks like it might be the start of BGA to me (I have it bad in two tanks right now). If it is though, it should be very easy to wipe off with your finger. If it doesn't come off, it's something else.


It does not wipe off, at least not easily. When I went to treat with excel (well, diluted glut at same strength) I tried and did not see any come clean. However, a snail was running up the edge of a leaf, and it was very clean behind him (admittedly I did not see it specifically before, and he then moved off the leaf as I watched). 

I did treat, one leaf with filters off I squirted, slowly, 15ml on and around it, and left the filter off another 5 minutes or so.



kidgrave said:


> Buy yourself a timer. They only cost $5 dollars at Walmart. My advise is to decrease your photoperiod. Try running your lights for 6 hours to see how that goes. It looks like your plants have a potassium deficiency.


Potassium is a possibility as I only get that from equilibrium, and have been adding one cap of that (seachem strength) a week. I have no way to test for that. I can increase that amount. Now that I look it is quite low compared to seachem's recommendation, though again I mix up equilibrium and it's high in potassium (23%) so I was unsure how much was appropriate.

Any advice there?


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

Potassium is a high possibility, but it could also be other nutrients lacking. I pointed out to potassium because when this nutrients are lacking, I have noticed how my plants get little holes, brown spots that start looking a little black. You can always dose potassium individually by purchasing a bag of dry fertilizer. The thing is once your plants stop being deficient, they will start growing more normal and start eating more nutrients, meaning they could cause a deficiency in other nutrients. I recently dealt with an annoying algae issue, which I ruled our all possible causes by dosing estimative index. My advise is to dose EI because it makes sure your plants have all the nitrients they need and want. You can't exactly tell how much a plant needs because their demands increase as they grow with EI, you can be certain your algae issue is not related to nutrients. Also, it costs a lot less to buy ferts for EI dosing method than to buy bottles of seachem ferts or whatever you use. Let me know if you need help.


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

Sorry about my typos. I meant to say that with EI, you can make sure your plants are not lacking nutrients. I can't edit my post because I'm using Tapatalk.


----------



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

kidgrave said:


> My advise is to dose EI because it makes sure your plants have all the nitrients they need and want.


If I understand it, this is basically over-dosing and removing the excess with regular water changes. I'm going for a low maintenance tank, trying to get the fish and plants in somewhat of a balance to do very infrequent water changes.

Do I misunderstand?


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

Linwood, I get what you're trying to do and the setup you want. You can always cut back on the dose and dose every month or so to avoid water changes. The EI method can be modified. 

The most important thing besides bring concerned about water changes is making your plant healthy priority, because when plants aren't doing well, your system is unstable, meaning that a plant that is not growing well won't filter our your water properly. Once your plants are growing well, they will keep up with your water quality. 

I have a tank that can be considered medium light and I had to modify the dosing because it's not high light and could get away with less.

My second advise is to look into your cities water report to see what's in the water. Check to see what nutrients your tap water has. Water changes helps a lot if your tap water has nitrates and potassium like mine.


----------



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

kidgrave said:


> My second advise is to look into your cities water report to see what's in the water. Check to see what nutrients your tap water has. Water changes helps a lot if your tap water has nitrates and potassium like mine.


I'm using RODI, so I'm adding everything that's in there.

So with each run I add equilibrium to about dGH of 6, and equilibrium is a fair amount of potassium.

Then I was adding a bit each week to make up for what might be used. Maybe not enough of course. Or maybe I'm thinking about it incorrectly.

Note all the other plants look great at the moment. Wisteria and jungle val are growing at very fast rates, and even the crypt wendtii is doing well, it did not melt at all when planted.


----------



## kidgrave (Feb 4, 2014)

I don't know exactly how your plants are doing overall, but we could consider possibilities. It could be possible the amount of potassium is not sufficient. It could also be possible that other nutrients are lacking. 

I was just wondering, for how long have you been growing your plants that are doing fine? Did you just recently add your anubias? It could be possible it didn't adjust well to your plant conditions.

I'm gonna be honest, it could be hard to diagnose properly what nutrients are plants lacking without laboratory grade test kits. Even if you tested often, it would make your tank more maintenence, and this is not what you want, as you precipusly stated. You will eliminate the hassle and headache by trying to dose twice the recommended amount of excel, and overdosing your nutrients with EI. EI may sound like more maintenance, but if you think about it, it saved money because your plants will thrive and you won't have to be replacing them or having to clean algae. Having to clean algae prevents you from achieving your goal of low maintenance. Just my two cents here


----------



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

kidgrave said:


> I don't know exactly how your plants are doing overall, but we could consider possibilities. It could be possible the amount of potassium is not sufficient. It could also be possible that other nutrients are lacking.
> 
> I was just wondering, for how long have you been growing your plants that are doing fine? Did you just recently add your anubias? It could be possible it didn't adjust well to your plant conditions.
> 
> I'm gonna be honest, it could be hard to diagnose properly what nutrients are plants lacking without laboratory grade test kits. Even if you tested often, it would make your tank more maintenence, and this is not what you want, as you precipusly stated. You will eliminate the hassle and headache by trying to dose twice the recommended amount of excel, and overdosing your nutrients with EI. EI may sound like more maintenance, but if you think about it, it saved money because your plants will thrive and you won't have to be replacing them or having to clean algae. Having to clean algae prevents you from achieving your goal of low maintenance. Just my two cents here


It's a fair question. 

The anubias was planted 8/23 (it's Hastifolia, I am told). 

The wisteria was planted at the same time, and is at least twice the size it was and looks healthy. Only a few bottom leaves are falling off, I think those may have been grown emersed (they are rounded not frilly).

Jungle val was planted was planted 9/2, transplanted from my other tank. It took off quickly, a couple that was about 14" is now much longer than the tank is deep, so probably 36" long. Just starting to put out runners.

99% of the hairgrass died, but I'm told I had woefully inadequate light.

Ludwigga was planted with 8/23 also, and looks healthy, but is growing very slowly; it is putting out a number of roots from mid-level. New growth is primarily green but a bit of red.

Crypts that were green are doing well and growing new leaves, no melt; crypts that were a red variant look pretty much as when planted (which was around end of august but I didn't write it down apparently). I was just delighted I had no melting. These were the topfin in gel by the way.

Adding more of some things sounds fine. The water changes are a real mess though -- I have no permanent storage for RODI water, so I have to pull a 65G tank down from the garage ceiling, fill it (takes a day), and change water. I can mix a couple more 5G buckets, but it means around 30% water change is all I can do at one time, at least and restore same day. So there really is a penalty for frequent water changes that is much higher than testing or dosing. If I felt the local water was adequate and could just use a python I may feel differently.

I am confused about what I am seeing. This stuff really looks as though it is on, not in, the leaf surface. I realize that saying that, and also saying I could not wipe it off, is a bit contradictory. I do not say that it is not deficiency, as I do not know. But my gut is telling me it is something growing on the leaf, not the leaf itself.

I'm curious what the excel will have done.

And one day I may get a microscope. I suspect a physical viewing and some reading would help clarify such things a lot, would they not? At least the "is that leaf or parasite".


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

After everything you've said in recent posts, Linwood, it's sounding more & more like the beginnings of BBA. It is rather difficult to 'wipe off' at any of it's stages - you almost have to scrape it off, say with a fingernail. Once you kill it, and it turns grey, it's fairly easy to remove it.


----------



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

kidgrave said:


> Buy yourself a timer. They only cost $5 dollars at Walmart. My advise is to decrease your photoperiod. Try running your lights for 6 hours to see how that goes. It looks like your plants have a potassium deficiency.


I wasn't ignoring this. I reduced it to 6 hours today manually. I'm managing procrastination by not buying a timer. My plan is to have a Raspberry Pi manage the lights, and I just haven't gotten around to it. If I buy a timer I may never get around to it. 



discuspaul said:


> If it's BGA, you won't be able to immediately tell if the treatment is effective, since it will take a number of hours, certainly overnite, before you see any signs. If it's BGA, the color will eventually change from black/dark brown, to greyish/whitish, likely within 24 hours, at which point it has died and you should be able to remove it/brush if off with your fingers.


No effect so far. It may be that I'm not getting it to stay in the leaf's area well enough. Does H2O2 work better? Can I use more of it than excel safely, since it degrades into just oxygen and water? 

I also have some definite BBA in another tank on a few leaves on a very slow growing anubias I have been ignoring. I need to move that plant anyway, figured i would trim these (older) leaves anyway. But I treated it the same way at the same time as the new tank, and it also showed no improvement, so I think it is the way I treated it not (necessarily) the diagnosis.


----------



## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

Linwood said:


> I'm managing procrastination by not buying a timer.


:icon_lol: Funniest thing I've heard all night:thumbsup:


----------



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Linwood said:


> No effect so far. It may be that I'm not getting it to stay in the leaf's area well enough. Does H2O2 work better? Can I use more of it than excel safely, since it degrades into just oxygen and water?


Well, I stand corrected. It just took longer. I did not notice the algae degrade, but yesterday evening (so about 4 days afterwards) I noticed it was gone. Just vanished. Only from the leaves I treated. They still had some green spot algae, but all the black was gone.

So at least the operating theory is it was BBA, and I'll just work my way around during excel treatments of the tank and spray just those leaves.

Or can I use more H2O2 and do it all at once, does it hurt anything to have (say) a cup or so of that in 200 gallons, I figured with a cup I can probably treat all the leaves of the anubias.


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Linwood -
Even in a 200 gallon tank, 1 cup of H202 all at once & at full strength MAY (temporarily) be a bit on the heavy side. To be safe, why don't you do it in 2 stages, a day apart, @ 1/2 cup per day.


----------



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

discuspaul said:


> a day apart, @ 1/2 cup per day.


Perfect, I just have no idea how much of what becomes problematic.

Now if I can just get the darn fish to leave me alone while I do it. They swarm me anytime I put my hand in the tank, expecting food. Darn good thing they don't have teeth!


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Linwood said:


> Perfect, I just have no idea how much of what becomes problematic.
> 
> Now if I can just get the darn fish to leave me alone while I do it. They swarm me anytime I put my hand in the tank, expecting food. Darn good thing they don't have teeth!


That's precisely the potential problem - You would need to do the best you can to keep the fish away from your dosing, at least for a short while, until the full strength H202 dissipates somewhat.
Shouldn't be a real problem, but play it as safely as you can.


----------



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Some interesting photos.

The first is the same leaf shown in the first posting; this is with one treatment of excel. It did nothing for the first day or three, then cleaned up entirely (the dark/light areas are photo artifacts, not algae; notice the edges are now completely clear). 










Today I shot some Excel on some leaves, and H2O2 on others. No excitement there. But then I had a big spot of blue green slime algae (bacteria I think) on a stump. I put a bit of H2O2 in it, and oh my, did it react. It foamed and fizzed and came loose. 










And in another area you can see the foam: 










Interesting how succeptible BGA is to H2O2, the black algae didn't visibly react at all.


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Seems like you've caught on to a treatment that works for both problems- H202 for the BGA and Excel for the BBA.


----------



## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

peroxide destroys bba. 



Bump: i have the same black spots on some old dying dwarf sag leaves and on some anubias leaves.

i never tried peroxide on them though. I will though.


----------

