# 75G High Tech Rainbowfish Build



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Is it any surprise to say I am looking forward to seeing where this goes??:wink2:

Good luck with the build. Now go get a place to host pics, or learn how to do it right on this site, as I'm expecting a lot of them.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> Is it any surprise to say I am looking forward to seeing where this goes??:wink2:
> 
> Good luck with the build. Now go get a place to host pics, or learn how to do it right on this site, as I'm expecting a lot of them.




I will do so! But before I can post I need to make sure I have my 'ducks in a row'  I'm guessing you'd advise for more filtration?


And...I just noticed you are only an hour from me!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

I have no experience with sumps so can't help you there. In general, I've always believed in excess filtration, and if possible more than one. Basic idea is that when you clean one, you are not disturbing the bio field of the other. Ammonia spikes are not good for plants or fish. Also, if ever you run into an emergency problem with one, the other can handle things well enough so that you are not in a panic. I actually run three, but one of them is mostly to drive my Cerges reactor. Course media and lots of bio matter, but not any fine filtering with that one. Want to keep the flow rate up at all times.

Another thing to keep in mind for Rainbows is oxygen. Good surface agitation is a priority for me. Your Rainbows will appreciate it.

I don't have any experience with LED's, but I'm sure others can help you there. The amount of light really depends on the plant species you intend to keep. Many of the showier plants will require a good amount of light to thrive and show the best colors. Also, with only one 48" fixture, your par will vary quite a bit from front, back, center, sides. You might need to plant accordingly, keeping some lower light plants in the lower par areas.

Once again, looking forward to seeing what you come up with. If I can be of any help sharing my experience, don't hesitate to reach out.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> I have no experience with sumps so can't help you there. In general, I've always believed in excess filtration, and if possible more than one. Basic idea is that when you clean one, you are not disturbing the bio field of the other. Ammonia spikes are not good for plants or fish. Also, if ever you run into an emergency problem with one, the other can handle things well enough so that you are not in a panic. I actually run three, but one of them is mostly to drive my Cerges reactor. Course media and lots of bio matter, but not any fine filtering with that one. Want to keep the flow rate up at all times.
> 
> Another thing to keep in mind for Rainbows is oxygen. Good surface agitation is a priority for me. Your Rainbows will appreciate it.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the input. Are you still running the Rena pumps? Would you recommend them? 

One of the reasons I am considering a sump is for the surface skimming capabilities. Perhaps it's the saltwater reefer in me, but the maintenance on a wet/dry is so much 'easier'. I have no experience running a freshwater version, however.

Anyways, thanks again for the input and if anyone has any canister recommendations, feel free to chime in as well.

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## Brian Rodgers (Oct 15, 2016)

Getting help from the experts here, especially Gregzz with certainly supercharge the road to your success. Rainbows rock, and if I wasn't on a one tank leash, I'd be right there with you.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> Thank you for the input. Are you still running the Rena pumps? Would you recommend them?
> 
> One of the reasons I am considering a sump is for the surface skimming capabilities. Perhaps it's the saltwater reefer in me, but the maintenance on a wet/dry is so much 'easier'. I have no experience running a freshwater version, however.


Here's the thing. If you ask the question what is the best canister filter, most people will respond with whatever it is they own. Two of my Rena's have been running for 16 years, so I don't know much about other brands. I do know the quick disconnect makes it easy to service. And the design hasn't changed in years, so parts/gaskets/etc are readily available. Honestly, I think they all do pretty much the same thing to one degree or another.

As far as maintenance, every 4/5 weeks or so, over to the laundry room sink, rinse out the pads, put in new filter floss, and in ten minutes back in the tank. And maybe sumps wet/drys are a better solution and easier, I just have no experience with them.

In the scheme of things, probably the most insignificant choice you will have. If you look at all of the items it takes to run a planted tank, it's the one I would give the least amount of thought to. IMO just have lots of it.


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

ProndFarms said:


> Filtration - I am highly considering switching to a wet/dry with sump (should not be a problem with pressurized CO2) as I really dislike cleaning canisters. From what I am gathering - a single SunSun403B is not nearly enough filtration. There seems to be quite a few threads debating pros/cons of each, and I am not really looking to start that debate here, but I am looking for a 'recommended' amount of filtration. Do I have enough? If not, canister recommendations and quantity.


I run 2 tanks: a 65 gal display tank with a 20 gal sump and a 135 gal with 2 canister filters - Fluval FX6 and a Hydor.

Both have their pros and cons.

With the sump you will have to consider the following:

1. Loss of CO2 - gal to gal, I use more CO2 in the 65 gal but there may be other variables apart from filter choice
2. Overflow and related noise (with the right design you can get a completely silent drain)

Like you, my inspiration for the 135gal was @Greggz setup. For this set up I opted for two canisters. The set up is an overkill but will allow me to keep a larger fish load. The Fluval FX6 is a monster and I use it exclusively as a filter. The Hydor feeds the inline heater, RG reactor and UV light filter.

I do not see much difference in filter maintenance: I give the sump a quick clean every weekend and a detailed clean every two months. The canisters are cleaned alternately every month.

With regards to surface skimming, I use an Ehiem surface skimmer on the 135 - works great.


As far as recommendations go: if you go for a sump, use the largest tank you can accommodate. I really like my Jebao DCT pump. For CO2, I use a dedicated pump to feed my Cerges reactor. Lot of choice for filter media.

For canisters, my choice of filters was based on reviews. filter ratings and the killer prices I got from the LFS. Having said that I have read positive things about the Sun Sun filters. Retail price of 2 of them is similar to one FX6!


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> Here's the thing. If you ask the question what is the best canister filter, most people will respond with whatever it is they own. Two of my Rena's have been running for 16 years, so I don't know much about other brands. I do know the quick disconnect makes it easy to service. And the design hasn't changed in years, so parts/gaskets/etc are readily available. Honestly, I think they all do pretty much the same thing to one degree or another.
> 
> As far as maintenance, every 4/5 weeks or so, over to the laundry room sink, rinse out the pads, put in new filter floss, and in ten minutes back in the tank. And maybe sumps wet/drys are a better solution and easier, I just have no experience with them.
> 
> In the scheme of things, probably the most insignificant choice you will have. If you look at all of the items it takes to run a planted tank, it's the one I would give the least amount of thought to. IMO just have lots of it.




I suppose this is a very valid point - duly noted 

Bump:


OreoP said:


> I run 2 tanks: a 65 gal display tank with a 20 gal sump and a 135 gal with 2 canister filters - Fluval FX6 and a Hydor.
> 
> Both have their pros and cons.
> 
> ...




Thank you for the input. I actually am already using the Eheim skimmer on my 75g and yes - it works wonderfully; I will definitely continue to use it on my rework.

Bump: So after some input and thread searching, I have decided to continue with the canister filters, and will be ordering another one in the very near future to complete the existing SunSun. I am looking for something with perhaps a bit better build quality, as the self-priming pump no longer works and the self-contained UV light is no longer working (not that it was large enough to do anything in the first place).


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Well, after a long weekend, I finally took some time and moved my existing inhabitants into a temporary home (40B). I was able to drain their old home, clean up the glass, remove and replace the silicone seals (tank is probably 15+ years old), install some new equipment, and finally add some sand and water. Maybe a bit pic intensive, but I was on a roll I guess 


I've also determined that I can't quite figure out how to add the pics one by one with a description, so I guess this 'lump sum' of pics will have to do. I can also say that I am extremely disappointed in the sand that I chose, as it was Black Blasting Sand from Menards - and it is extremely fine and unfortunately, not very black. Instead it appears very brown and 'muddy' looking. Hopefully over time I will grow accustomed to it.


That's all the updates I have for now. I still need to make and install a CO2 reactor on one of the canister filters, as well as get some new black vinyl tubing for my original canister. I have a large piece of driftwood soaking that I am hoping will start to sink soon, and I am starting to work on a stock list for plants. I must admit I am a TERRIBLE 'waterscaper', and looking for some help on plant selections if anyone wants to chime in.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

*Quick Update*

Received two shipments of plants, here are a few sample pics:

Synogonanthus 'Rio *****'









Alternanthera reineckii









Cabomba 'Purple'









Pardon the coloration in this photo and my rocks weighing down the driftwood, but pic was taken at night as lights were ramping down.

Lobelia cardinalis in the front, Rotala colorata in the rear.









I plan on taking a trip to the LFS this weekend and picking up my first batch of rainbows - super excited. In the meantime, I'll work on taking better pics!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Looking forward to seeing the Bows! What kind are you getting?


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> Looking forward to seeing the Bows! What kind are you getting?


Well, after quite a lengthy discussion with Dale, I am hoping to walk away with the following to start:

Wapoga 'Red Laser'
Parkinsoni
Goyder River
Turquois

Initial stocking quantities are a bit of a concern to me, so I was thinking groups of 2-3 of each of those? Then I could add more over time, always saving a bit of room for the next 'must have' species


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

*Fts 10-12-17*

Ignore the rocks holding down the driftwood and the classic 'flowerpot'


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Looking forward to how your stocking goes (also a Rainbow fan)


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> Well, after quite a lengthy discussion with Dale, I am hoping to walk away with the following to start:
> 
> Wapoga 'Red Laser'
> Parkinsoni
> ...


Yes Dale is a good guy, a fish nut, and he knows his Rainbows. I wouldn't worry too much about the initial stocking quantities. 

Remember these guys will be like little minnows at first, not too much bio load. As they slowly grow, you will have plenty of time to contemplate your next stocking move.

And tell Dale I said hello, I haven't seen him my last few stops there.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Did you specify if you we're doing just males? I can tell you the Goyder Rivers take a while to color up. The others were pretty obvious. The Milleniums are pretty awesome just fyi. Is that a Caucatoides? I've got 2 males of 3 species of bows in my 75 with Apisto's, Emporer tetras, and Corys. It's a pretty awesome tank. I'm looking forward to the progress.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> Did you specify if you we're doing just males? I can tell you the Goyder Rivers take a while to color up. The others were pretty obvious. The Milleniums are pretty awesome just fyi. Is that a Caucatoides? I've got 2 males of 3 species of bows in my 75 with Apisto's, Emporer tetras, and Corys. It's a pretty awesome tank. I'm looking forward to the progress.




That is in fact a Triple Red Caucatoides - you've got good eyes! I didn't realize I caught him in the picture. Unfortunately, my little buddy isn't doing too well as he has lost his two female companions and is refusing to eat pretty much everything (dried, live, frozen), but I'm hoping he cheers up a bit in the next few days. 


I do plan to add some Cory's to my tank (just love their activity level) and I do plan to introduce a pair of GBR's (hence the generic 'flowerpot') at some point in this build as well.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ProndFarms said:


> That is in fact a Triple Red Caucatoides - you've got good eyes! I didn't realize I caught him in the picture. Unfortunately, my little buddy isn't doing too well as he has lost his two female companions and is refusing to eat pretty much everything (dried, live, frozen), but I'm hoping he cheers up a bit in the next few days.
> 
> 
> I do plan to add some Cory's to my tank (just love their activity level) and I do plan to introduce a pair of GBR's (hence the generic 'flowerpot') at some point in this build as well.


That's going to be a fantastic tank!! Female Caucatoides are hard to come by.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> That's going to be a fantastic tank!! Female Caucatoides are hard to come by.


They sure are, my LFS just happened to have them a year or two ago and I picked them up with the intention of breeding them. Ironically enough, the male has never shown any interest while the females were both fully interested. Interesting species fish, however.

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

*Tank Update 10-22-17*

Just a quick update - my 2 year old keeps throwing me curveballs and decided to get sick, so my plans to go pick up the rainbows have been put on hold (might have had a wedding anniversary in there too). Fortunately, however, I was able to get a few things accomplished with the tank.

I picked this awesome little (read "BIG") piece of equipment up and get it installed - and I might add it seems to work flawlessly. I haven't completely fine-tuned it yet, but I can safely say that it can handle way more CO2 than I can safely put into it.









And an obligatory FTS just for kicks.









Unfortunately - I already need some input, and I "think" I know what the problem is, but I was hoping a few others could chime in and correct me if I am wrong.

I am developing an algae 'outbreak' of sorts which is now centralized around a piece of rock that I am using to weigh down my driftwood. My first mistake was using it, as it was from a previous tank and what I thought I had previously cleaned was, well, enough matter to fuel the algae growth. (I believe you can see it in the top left of the FTS above). I have noticed that the algae is starting to develop strings around some of the plants as well, and I can assume that in a week or so I will have a full-blown problem on my hands.

I am dosing the PPS-Pro method and my light is a Finnex Planted+ 24/7 SE. After doing a bit of research, the PAR output for this light may be a tad low and I am considering a switch to good ole T5s if there is consensus that the low-ish light may be a contributing factor.

See pics:

























Anyways - take a peek at my madness in action and if anyone has a few tips to throw my way, it would be much appreciated.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I think the day after you posted that my females health started failing. A few days later she was gone. Then the male got super depressed and stopped eating. He passed yesterday. Im pretty bummed. 
As for the plants I've got no advice other than spot treat it until your plant mass catches up. I blast h2o2 directly on the spots with a syringe. It's hard to keep algae at bay without substantial plant mass.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

So I'm having minor heart palpitations over choosing a light. Agrobrite makes a 4-bulb unit as well as a 6-bulb unit - which should I get?

I have a tendency to believe the 6-bulb unit may be a bit much, but it would certainly allow more color flexibility. 

Any input?

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> So I'm having minor heart palpitations over choosing a light. Agrobrite makes a 4-bulb unit as well as a 6-bulb unit - which should I get?
> 
> I have a tendency to believe the 6-bulb unit may be a bit much, but it would certainly allow more color flexibility.
> 
> ...


I think you answered your own question. 

A standard 75 is only 21" deep. For reference, my 120G is 26" deep, and I just started cutting down from 6 bulbs to 4. With 6 bulbs, depending on the configuration, I could be between 135 to 160 or so PAR at the substrate......and that's at 26" deep.

Reality is 4 bulbs is going to be quite high PAR as it is, and will be enough light to grow anything. And with 4 bulbs, you still have plenty of room to mess around with bulb combinations and colors. 

If you want a good read, you should check out @burr740 original 75 gallon thread....... http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/592313-75-gallon-journey.html

As you will see, he had 4 x T5HO on that tank, and I would say it worked pretty well for him. And it's just a great read, and something I read many times when I started down the high tech planted path.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> I think you answered your own question.
> 
> A standard 75 is only 21" deep. For reference, my 120G is 26" deep, and I just started cutting down from 6 bulbs to 4. With 6 bulbs, depending on the configuration, I could be between 135 to 160 or so PAR at the substrate......and that's at 26" deep.
> 
> ...


I just happened to stumble across his 75 build thread shortly after posting it, and while I haven't even begun to scratch the surface, you are correct, a 4 bulb unit still be plenty.

There is a wealth of information out there, thank you again for making that information so much easier to locate.

Btw, I'm going to make it up to see Dale this week come heck or high water!

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> I just happened to stumble across his 75 build thread shortly after posting it, and while I haven't even begun to scratch the surface, you are correct, a 4 bulb unit still be plenty.
> 
> There is a wealth of information out there, thank you again for making that information so much easier to locate.
> 
> ...


Looking forward to seeing pics of the new Bows when you get them....and tell Dale I said hello!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Have you decided on what you want? I always favored the large groups of few species... then I saw Greggz tank... then I fell for some of the dwarf Rainbows. There is just an endless variety. Have you added the Corys yet? I brought my group up to 9 Pandas, but they still don't group up much. Thinking about adding 5 or 6 more and hoping for more of a group thing. Hopefully picking up a pair of Red Lasers this week and maybe a trio of clown loaches. Its hard to not want to emulate Greggz tank down to the last bit


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> Have you decided on what you want? I always favored the large groups of few species... then I saw Greggz tank... then I fell for some of the dwarf Rainbows. There is just an endless variety. Have you added the Corys yet? I brought my group up to 9 Pandas, but they still don't group up much. Thinking about adding 5 or 6 more and hoping for more of a group thing. Hopefully picking up a pair of Red Lasers this week and maybe a trio of clown loaches. Its hard to not want to emulate Greggz tank down to the last bit


I do not have my heart dead set yet, but I do have some favorites; turquoise, red laser, Irian red come to mind right off the bat.

Quantities is a good question. I guess initially I was thinking groups of 3-4 per species. I would like to be able to have many different species as opposed to large quantities of a few species.

I have not added the Cory's yet - still deciding on those I guess. And yes I agree Greggz tank is a beauty, and while I will try to somewhat emulate his style, I also enjoy having a creation that is all of my own and unique to my own personality and tastes. I firmly believe that is what makes this hobby so interesting and rewarding; the ability to make it 'your own'.

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Quick update on my tank:

Still waiting to get my bows - yes I can barely stand it anymore! So, not much to update as far as livestock.

As for plants - see pics attached. (Hopefully this works as I am sending from my phone). I have quite a bit of what I call green dust algae on the tank glass and sand. I am still learning this whole 'high tech' approach, so not sure what to do or how to combat? 

I do plan to swap out my leds for a 4 bulb HO setup, and I currently dose PPS-PRO.

Any advice would be appreciated.























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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

As a tip I got from Greggz check out the Millenium Rainbows. They are smaller than Iranian with better and brighter color. Ill snap a pic of my two. They are like fire engine red. As to the algae problem you simply don't have enough plant mass. I would toss some Wisteria and bacopa in there or add a substantial amount of additional plant mass. You don't have enough plant mass to outcompete the algae. 
I'm probably going to pick up 2 male Red Lasers today and hopefully 2 male Kamaka and another 3 or 4 Panda Corys. Ill post up some pics later on my thread if you want to check out the milleniums


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Also I wanted to mention that pairs work really well even when both are males. My 3 (now 4) species are always together. Picked up a really nice pair of male Red Lasers and 3 more Pandas to add to my school.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> I do not have my heart dead set yet, but I do have some favorites; turquoise, red laser, Irian red come to mind right off the bat.
> 
> Quantities is a good question. I guess initially I was thinking groups of 3-4 per species. I would like to be able to have many different species as opposed to large quantities of a few species.
> 
> ...


If I were you I would consider Millennium (Glossolepis Pseudoincisus) instead of the Irian. The Irian gets quite large, and the adult color can be a bit of a rusty red. The Millennium stays smaller, and the adult color is a bit more of a bright red. Smaller might be better with your 75G.

And I am with you on setting up things with your own taste. Everything I have done is basically because that is what I like. And I've seen so many tanks that I think are spectacular, but it's just not what I am shooting for. 

As to Cory's, I had them for a short time once. For me, when they shot for the surface and and really zipped around the tank, it broke up the more tranquil look that I enjoy. Now of course, that being said, I know many absolutely love Cory's, but they just weren't for me. As they say, different strokes for different folks.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> As a tip I got from Greggz check out the Millenium Rainbows. They are smaller than Iranian with better and brighter color. Ill snap a pic of my two. They are like fire engine red. As to the algae problem you simply don't have enough plant mass. I would toss some Wisteria and bacopa in there or add a substantial amount of additional plant mass. You don't have enough plant mass to outcompete the algae.
> I'm probably going to pick up 2 male Red Lasers today and hopefully 2 male Kamaka and another 3 or 4 Panda Corys. Ill post up some pics later on my thread if you want to check out the milleniums


Millennium seem like the right way to go - thanks for the tip!

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Update 11-7-17

So I finally got up to the LFS and selected some rainbows, and I must say that if anyone is ever in the area, Fantastic Fins in Livonia, MI is an excellent store, and the owner Dale, is one of the most knowledgeable hobbyists I have met.

Now, on to the good stuff. My list as follows:

M. duboulayi 'Kangaroo Creek'
M. boesemani 'Atinyo'
M. parkinsoni
M. lacustris 
M. trifasciata

They are relatively small at this point, but I am excited to watch them grow out and develop colors. I am attaching a few pics and a FTS or two to document growth.

On a side note, I picked up a clump of hornwort to try and develop some plant mass and combat my algae problem.

Also, please excuse the photos as they were taken with my cell phone and directly after a water change.

































































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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> Update 11-7-17
> 
> So I finally got up to the LFS and selected some rainbows, and I must say that if anyone is ever in the area, Fantastic Fins in Livonia, MI is an excellent store, and the owner Dale, is one of the most knowledgeable hobbyists I have met.
> 
> ...


Congratulations! Glad to see you are getting started with the Bows. Now you just need some patience. It will take a little time for them to start growing out, but it is a pleasure to watch.

And I know who the breeder is that those came from, and they are very good quality stock. He just started offering the Kangaroo Creek, and I might pick up a couple myself.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

@ProndFarms

Tank looks good, but I think you should get the algae under control. You have very low plant mass. Probably too much ferts. I know you said PPS-Pro, but are you using it yet?

People say the trick to success is having alot of plant mass from the beginning. You might add some cycling plants that you can remove later. Maybe some giant hygro, or keep growing the hornwort but anchor it so it doesnt block light to anything.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> Congratulations! Glad to see you are getting started with the Bows. Now you just need some patience. It will take a little time for them to start growing out, but it is a pleasure to watch.
> 
> And I know who the breeder is that those came from, and they are very good quality stock. He just started offering the Kangaroo Creek, and I might pick up a couple myself.


Ha... Dale said you might comment on this. Even for juveniles, they have very nice color. 

If you keep adding bows, you're just going to have to get yourself a bigger tank [emoji23]

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

ChrisX said:


> @ProndFarms
> 
> Tank looks good, but I think you should get the algae under control. You have very low plant mass. Probably too much ferts. I know you said PPS-Pro, but are you using it yet?
> 
> People say the trick to success is having alot of plant mass from the beginning. You might add some cycling plants that you can remove later. Maybe some giant hygro, or keep growing the hornwort but anchor it so it doesnt block light to anything.


I agree - the algae is an issue, and I am currently dosing the PPS-PRO, however, I have cut the dose in half as of a few days ago for much the same reason that you suggest. I think there may be too many nutrients given the available plant mass.

I'll try hunting around for some additional plants as well and we'll see how that affects things. Thanks for commenting!

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Awesome!! I'm jealous that you had access to such a nice selection of well bred fish at one time. I have always just picked up one or two if they were really nice, but I have never been able to do more than that at any one time


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

How many of each did you purchase? I would like to add 2 Yellow, 3 Kamaka, and 2 Turqouise to the 2 Bosemani, 2 Goyder River, 2 millenium and 2 Red Laser. That's 15 Rainbows in addition to the Emporer tetras and Corys.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> How many of each did you purchase? I would like to add 2 Yellow, 3 Kamaka, and 2 Turqouise to the 2 Bosemani, 2 Goyder River, 3 millenium and 2 Red Laser. That's 15 Rainbows in addition to the Emporer tetras and Corys.


I purchased three each of the boesemani 'Atinyo', parkinsoni, and lacustris along with a solo Kangaroo Creek. I would have purchased another 2-3 of the kangaroos, but the LFS only had one left.

I'm already looking forward to adding a few millennium and red lasers to mine as well - beautiful fish. I look forward to seeing your new ones if you decide to pick them up!

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Quick update 11-12-17:

Tank still struggling with a bit of GDA and what appears to be cyano?!? You can notice it specifically on the driftwood piece in the photos below. Also had to share a photo of my Colombian Tetras - old and losing scales but full of color - they are well over 5 years old at this point.






































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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I think the Columbian tetras are so cool looking. I think a group of 20+ would be awesome in a big tank. Do they nibble on plants at all? Eventually I want to have a large group with some Bolivian Rams or something like that. Do they school / shoal? I chose Emporers over Columbian tetras and I'm not sure I made the right choice.


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## jclee (Jul 15, 2009)

Beautiful! Excellent work. 

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> I think the Columbian tetras are so cool looking. I think a group of 20+ would be awesome in a big tank. Do they nibble on plants at all? Eventually I want to have a large group with some Bolivian Rams or something like that. Do they school / shoal? I chose Emporers over Columbian tetras and I'm not sure I made the right choice.


The Colombians do not bother the plants - at all. One of the benefits of most of the tetras. My set of 6 shoals constantly; it really is quite beautiful to watch.

The Emporer Tetra is a beautiful fish; it takes quite awhile for the colors and shimmer to really come out. I'm not sure how old yours are, but give them some time, I'm sure you'll be pleased once they mature.

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Update 11-20-17

So I decided to 'upgrade' my lighting to a 4 bulb HO unit. I still have to decide if I want to build a canopy or suspend it from the ceiling, but for now it looks great propped up against my basement stairs, lol.

As for the tank itself, I have stopped dosing ferts completely as I believe there are more nutrients in the water column than the plants can handle. I do still have quite a bit of GDA coating the tank glass and especially the lower leaves of the plants. It is very noticeable on my melon sword leaves - pic attached.

As for the bows, they are absolutely voracious eaters - I've read this a thousand times but until you view it in person - WOW!

Finally, the obligatory FTS for reference. (And excuse the photos, I'm sure I'm not doing myself any favors, but until I can figure out a way to post photos to the forum off my PC in an efficient manner, the ole cell phone will have to do).













































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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Update 11-26-17

So I finally got around to hooking up me new light, a 4-bulb T5 unit. I am amazed at the difference in both light output and quality vs my previous Finnex light. Posting a few pics as well of the progress so far. 

On a side note, still battling this GDA, hopefully the new light will help the plants outcompete.


























































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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

I bet you see a different from your plants pretty quick. Good luck. I have a 4 bulb T5 too. I need to get it all going.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

If you've increase the amount of light (which you most certainly have) I would cut WAY down on your photoperiod. The amount of light that can be utilized is dependant on the number of chloroplasts. Smaller plants can only utilize so much light even in the presence of abundant C02. The higher the plant mass the more C02, light, and nutrients can be utilized especially considering reduced surface area resulting from plants competing for light. My 75 is pretty dense and I'm pumping enough C02 to get mor3n than a 1 point drop in pH. I had 3 bulbs on for only 4 hours. The remaining 4 hours is only a singlenbulb. Anything more and I quickly see an increase in algae on leaves and driftwood. Personally I would do 2 bulbs for no more than 6 hours until you get some decent plant mass going. Otherwise you'll be battling algae forever. In fact up until a few weeks ago I was also dosing 10ml metricide daily for the sole purpose of keeping algae at bay. Look at the plant mass that is in some of these tanks doing even 6 hours with 4 bulbs. Lots of high growth stems and no bare substrate to speak of.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> If you've increase the amount of light (which you most certainly have) I would cut WAY down on your photoperiod. The amount of light that can be utilized is dependant on the number of chloroplasts. Smaller plants can only utilize so much light even in the presence of abundant C02. The higher the plant mass the more C02, light, and nutrients can be utilized especially considering reduced surface area resulting from plants competing for light. My 75 is pretty dense and I'm pumping enough C02 to get mor3n than a 1 point drop in pH. I had 3 bulbs on for only 4 hours. The remaining 4 hours is only a singlenbulb. Anything more and I quickly see an increase in algae on leaves and driftwood. Personally I would do 2 bulbs for no more than 6 hours until you get some decent plant mass going. Otherwise you'll be battling algae forever. In fact up until a few weeks ago I was also dosing 10ml metricide daily for the sole purpose of keeping algae at bay. Look at the plant mass that is in some of these tanks doing even 6 hours with 4 bulbs. Lots of high growth stems and no bare substrate to speak of.


Ouch!! Well thanks for the valuable input. Right now I have the 4 bulbs running for 7 hours, I guess that is a bit much haha.

Unfortunately, my light is either 4 bulbs on or 4 bulbs off - so I'm guessing I need to play with the photoperiod a bit. What would you suggest I start with? 4 hours? Should i add more stem plants and fill in the tank?

Secondly, you mentioned dosing metricide. Do you think if I were to dose excel that would be beneficial? Should I start up my fert regime? Guess I am a little lost?

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ProndFarms said:


> Ouch!! Well thanks for the valuable input. Right now I have the 4 bulbs running for 7 hours, I guess that is a bit much haha.
> 
> Unfortunately, my light is either 4 bulbs on or 4 bulbs off - so I'm guessing I need to play with the photoperiod a bit. What would you suggest I start with? 4 hours? Should i add more stem plants and fill in the tank?
> 
> ...


Honestly I fumbled around for months. With all on or all off I would add plants whether permanent or temporary and do a split photoperiod. If you were to add something really fast growing like wisteria or hornwort or a large amount of other fast growing stems and do a 3 hour on 2 hour off and maybe 3 hours on you should be close. I wouldn't run the C02 the whole time during the off period though so you would need a timer with dual functions. An easier way to go would be a 5 hour photoperiod to start with C02 coming on one hour prior and I would leave it on the entire time as opposed to turning if off 1 hour prior to cutting lights. As long as you make it a week to 10 days you could increase photoperiod by 30 minutes. Once stuff fills in you will have a lot more room for error. I personally do about 75% of what EI calls for and I dose macros and micros twice a week. Weekly water changes help with nutrient accumulation. Its a constant struggle between wanting to view my tanks and my experience that lower photoperiods are really the easiest way to stop the algae growth. I can only do 5 hours on my low tech 11.4 with Gertrude's. It sucks, but that's all I can do.

Metricide is especially helpful while tanks are reaching equilibrium. I did 10ml of Metricide daily in each 75 gallon and that was a huge help in limiting algae growth and boosting plants. I stopped once I got into more sensitive fish. I cut the metricide out and had to lower the photoperiod by 1 hour and split lighting from 3 bulbs on 8 hours to 2 bulbs for 2 hours, 3 bulbs for 2 hours, then 1 bulb for 3 "viewing" hours. Its got pretty good plant mass and I inject a good amount of CO2

I would add an amount of fast growing stems equivalent to the plant mass of hornswort on the right side. You really need to add a lot of plant mass to stabilize things. Wisteria is one of my favorites. My new favorite stem is bacopa caroliniana, but it has to be the submerged form, not the emersed form at PetSmart. That stuff takes weeks to transition and start really growing. I JUST trimmed and tossed a ziplock bag full about 5 days ago otherwise I would send you some. If you still need some in 10 days or so I will send you a bag of trimmings for free. No point is spending a ton of cash on something that you are only going to keep temporarily and grows literally like a weed. If you want send me a PM in about 10 days and Ill send you what I trim.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Hornwort can be a life saver while you are finding equilibrium 


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Prondfarms I'll give you my 2 cents for what it's worth. 

With a 4 bulb T5HO that is a lot of light. My guess would be PAR 100 or higher at the substrate. With that kind of light, you are driving the demand for CO2 and ferts. In my opinion, you should be dosing ferts. And make sure you are getting a good pH drop with your CO2. And keep in mind too little ferts can cause algae. If the plants aren't happy, it leaves the door open for algae to prosper. As you have probably read, concentrate on growing plants, and the algae should back off.

Do your lights have individual reflectors? If so, you might consider removing a few. You could also swap in some lower PAR bulbs, like Purple Actinic or something really red. You might want that full PAR later, but as others have said you need some more plant mass first. 

Good luck. Have some patience, keep at it, and I am sure you will get things in better balance soon.


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## Sarpijk (Aug 17, 2015)

Hi I would suggest you cover 2 of your bulbs with aluminum foil if you want to reduce light.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Update 1-14-18

So I've been a bit lax in my updating, but I wanted to post a few pics of my bows as they are quite beautiful already, imo!

As a further note, ignore the poor looking plants. I am having a devil of a time getting everything tuned in properly, and needless to say, I get an F so far in plant aquaculture. Nevertheless, here are the pics!












































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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> Prondfarms I'll give you my 2 cents for what it's worth.
> 
> With a 4 bulb T5HO that is a lot of light. My guess would be PAR 100 or higher at the substrate. With that kind of light, you are driving the demand for CO2 and ferts. In my opinion, you should be dosing ferts. And make sure you are getting a good pH drop with your CO2. And keep in mind too little ferts can cause algae. If the plants aren't happy, it leaves the door open for algae to prosper. As you have probably read, concentrate on growing plants, and the algae should back off.
> 
> ...


And make sure you are getting a good pH drop with your CO2.

Yes - I guess I also need to be looking into a pH controller. Any recommendations? I assume the Milwaukee MC122?

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> And make sure you are getting a good pH drop with your CO2.
> 
> Yes - I guess I also need to be looking into a pH controller. Any recommendations? I assume the Milwaukee MC122?
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


I use the American Marine Pinpoint pH Controller, but I am sure they are all good.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ProndFarms said:


> And make sure you are getting a good pH drop with your CO2.
> 
> Yes - I guess I also need to be looking into a pH controller. Any recommendations? I assume the Milwaukee MC122?
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


Why do you think that is necessary? I used a drop checker originally, but I don't even have that in the tank anymore. I think I'm probably around 2-3bps... as of today. As long as fish aren't gasping I'm good. When growth slows I turn up the C02 a bit. Do you have a recent fts?? Unless your growing plants at the level of Burr740, Greggz, or Immortal I think the money would be spent better on actual plant mass.

Personally I would cut the photoperiod down first. Cut it down maybe 45 minutes per week. Id get as low as maybe 5 hours with such a bright fixture... 
If that doesn't put you in control of algae and such, then I would start increasing the C02... probably daily.. as long as I could monitor for 90 minutes after each increase. 
You really just need a good plant mass to establish a strong equilibrium.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

The more I enjoy your rainbows the more I realize they might be something I am missing. Thank you for the great pictures


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> Why do you think that is necessary? I used a drop checker originally, but I don't even have that in the tank anymore. I think I'm probably around 2-3bps... as of today. As long as fish aren't gasping I'm good. When growth slows I turn up the C02 a bit. Do you have a recent fts?? Unless your growing plants at the level of Burr740, Greggz, or Immortal I think the money would be spent better on actual plant mass.
> 
> Personally I would cut the photoperiod down first. Cut it down maybe 45 minutes per week. Id get as low as maybe 5 hours with such a bright fixture...
> If that doesn't put you in control of algae and such, then I would start increasing the C02... probably daily.. as long as I could monitor for 90 minutes after each increase.
> You really just need a good plant mass to establish a strong equilibrium.


Well, in reality, most things on a tank are not 'necessary'; however, the aim was to have a high-tech tank and this piece of equipment, while certainly not necessary, would take much of the guesswork out of it. I do see, and agree with your point.

As for plant mass - I understand the concept, but I must admit I still struggle with this. There are numerous tanks out there that are comprised of little more than ground cover type plants, and as such I wouldn't consider these tanks to have a large plant mass. In order to grow plants successfully I either need to have a tank full of them or not at all?

My photoperiod currently is 2 bulbs for 6 hours - nice and simple. I did have a giant mass of hornwort, but what I did find is that the hornwort was growing into such large masses that it was restricting water flow to the point that it was becoming detrimental. I have since removed almost all of it. 

I have attached a FTS as well as some closeups. Plan moving forward is to switch to EI Dosing, be more adamant about weekly water changes and filter maintenance. I have a hunch that @Greggz is on to something (my filters are probably much dirtier than they should be at any given time). 

Thanks for the input - it means a great deal that people take time out of their day to comment and offer advice.






























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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

mbkemp said:


> The more I enjoy your rainbows the more I realize they might be something I am missing. Thank you for the great pictures
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Love this.

I am only beginning my journey with the rainbows, but I can tell you that even as immature juveniles, the colors and personality they display are probably greater than any other freshwater species I have owned. 

If you do decide to grab some, there are plenty of experienced people on this forum to get you going in the right direction.

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Hey Prondfarms things aren't nearly as bad as you described. Your plants are growing, that is a good thing.

You have something to work with there. Some fine tuning and I think you have lots to look forward to.

I would add even more plants. 

Keep at it. You are closer than you think.

Keep posting more updates, with more details, and I am sure many will chime in to offer words of advice.

And when you feel ready, PM me and I will send you a bunch of trimmings.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> Hey Prondfarms things aren't nearly as bad as you described. Your plants are growing, that is a good thing.
> 
> You have something to work with there. Some fine tuning and I think you have lots to look forward to.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the positive words. I'll take the advice that you and a number of others have mentioned and get some more plants! 

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Alright... I've read myself into a dizzy circle concerning this EI dosing. My plan, I think, is to dose 6x per week, alternating between macro/micro, 50% WC on day 7.

Now - I'm getting conflicting information on adding a 'GH Booster' on this day as well. Is this necessary? Is there a certain value I am shooting for?

Also - I typically do my WC's with good old fashioned tap water and a dose of Prime. Should I be using RO? I'm guessing that's what the GH Booster is for?

Sometimes this hobby makes me wonder if I even put my shoes on correctly...

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> Alright... I've read myself into a dizzy circle concerning this EI dosing. My plan, I think, is to dose 6x per week, alternating between macro/micro, 50% WC on day 7.
> 
> Now - I'm getting conflicting information on adding a 'GH Booster' on this day as well. Is this necessary? Is there a certain value I am shooting for?
> 
> ...


Alright take a deep breath now..........then exhale.

It will all make perfect sense in time.

Do you know your GH? That will tell you if you need to dose GH booster. And even if you don't need it, dosing some is not going to hurt anything, so don't worry too much about it. 

Personally I dose MgSO4 and CaS04. GH Booster is basically these two along with some K. It is more cost effective just to buy them and mix yourself. 

Likely your tap water is fine. I use RO water, but I am on a well going through a softener.

And yes most people dose macros/micros alternating days, then rest on water change day.

Personally I dose macros 4 days and micros everyday, but that is just what works for me. 

Take some time getting to know one of the good calculators, like Zorfox or Rotala Butterfly. They will be your friend in the long run.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> Alright take a deep breath now..........then exhale.
> 
> It will all make perfect sense in time.
> 
> ...


Well, good news is I now know I need a new GH test kit. Bad news - won't be able to provide any info until it arrives. And FWIW, I am going to go ahead and get a pH pen for accurate readings of my pH drop during the day.

Anyone have a preference in testing kits? API GH test kit should be sufficient? Anyone have any luck with the 5-in-1 test strips?

Further, from what I understand in your statements above, it's not going to hurt me to add a GH boost today after WC?

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

And for a further update, I plan to make a stock solution for dosing of macros in a 500ml bottle, dosing 20ml every other day, mixed as follows:

110g KNO3
31g KH2PO4

I will be doing the same thing with the micros (500ml bottle, 10ml dose, every other day)

33.4g CSM+B

As for the GH Boost - I have both K2SO4 and MgSO4 on hand - should I dose both dry? Or just one or the other? 

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> Well, good news is I now know I need a new GH test kit. Bad news - won't be able to provide any info until it arrives. And FWIW, I am going to go ahead and get a pH pen for accurate readings of my pH drop during the day.
> 
> Anyone have a preference in testing kits? API GH test kit should be sufficient? Anyone have any luck with the 5-in-1 test strips?
> 
> ...


Get the API GH kit. You won't need to test very often, and it will last a long time.

And yes, get a pH meter, along with some calibration fluids. pH test kits aren't nearly accurate enough for what you are trying to do.

Keep in mind tap water will likely contain some CO2, and that will affect pH reading right out of the tap. So be sure to degas the water. Either let a glass sit out for two or three days, or place in air stone in a glass and let it run for several hours (I just let it go overnight). It's important as that is what you will calculate your pH drop from. My tank does not completely degas overnight, so my degassed reading is 7.3, and I drive it down to 5.95 during the CO2 period. Overnight the tank pH only goes up to about 6.95 (not fully degassed), so you can't rely on an overnight reading.

If you have a KH test kit, you should see a correlation between degassed pH and KH. Degassed water still holds about 3 to 5 ppm CO2. Using a CO2 calculator you can see if in general if your reading makes sense. 

And no, in general, dosing to raise GH maybe 2 degrees or so will not hurt anything whether you need it or not.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> And for a further update, I plan to make a stock solution for dosing of macros in a 500ml bottle, dosing 20ml every other day, mixed as follows:
> 
> 110g KNO3
> 31g KH2PO4
> ...


Personally I would dose macros dry. It's not an exact science with macros, just want to make sure there is more than enough. A 7 day pill organizer works great. And you may make changes, so easier to do it week by week.










GH general hardness is the total of Ca and Mg. Most people dose them at about a 3:1 ratio. GH booster is a mix of those two with a bunch of K. One issue is that when it is mixed together, it turns into a hard brick. Sometimes you literally have to hammer it into pieces in order to use it.

If you buy CaSO4 and MgSO4, it's much easier to dose, and cheaper.

Here's an example for 75 gallons. You add 0.8 dGH from Mg, and add 1.2 dGH from Ca, for a boost of 2.0 GH hardness.

MgSO4 1 1/2 tsp provides:

dGH 0.8
Mg 3.467350483
S 4.574533885


CaSO4 2 3/4 tsp provides:

Ca 8.5762892
dGH 1.2
S 6.861801724

Then add K2SO4 as needed. It has nothing to do with hardness, it's a macro.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Based on your new pics... I really don't think your tank is anywhere near as bad as you think. Quite honestly I think it looks pretty good. 
What is your end goal? Larger groups of the plants you have or just more ground cover? Or are you happy with it now? I would top several of those stems and make bigger groups... but that's just what I like. If that last one is lobelia cardinalis it grows in super nice when you nip the top portion a few times and it makes this really cool dense grouping... but it looks rough while it's filling in.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> Based on your new pics... I really don't think your tank is anywhere near as bad as you think. Quite honestly I think it looks pretty good.
> What is your end goal? Larger groups of the plants you have or just more ground cover? Or are you happy with it now? I would top several of those stems and make bigger groups... but that's just what I like. If that last one is lobelia cardinalis it grows in super nice when you nip the top portion a few times and it makes this really cool dense grouping... but it looks rough while it's filling in.


Well that is a bit refreshing, as I think it looks terrible, but I guess I am always a bit hard on myself. I feel that there is a lot to improve on - but then again that is what keeps me in this hobby and makes it so enjoyable.

As for my goal - can I say I don't really know? I want lush plantings, large groupings, some ground cover - probably similar to what is there now. I want space for the fish, but I don't want dead areas as there is now. Part of my hesitancy of initially not adding more plants, but as I read more and more, I did the exact opposite of what I should have done.

That being said, I am looking into more plants - I just don't know what. I tend to think I am a collector, or will be, and many different varieties interest me. While I like large groupings, I do like variety and I love contrast. I really like the lobelia - and thank you for the tip, I will top those a bit for more of a bush look as the original idea was a sort of 'hedge' across the front of the driftwood (which is now nearly invisible, lol).

I am very unhappy with the substrate (Menards black diamond), as you can see it looks more like mud than black. But alas, I really don't feel like changing it out, so it will suffice for now.

There is some purple Cabomba in the back that I do enjoy, so I plan to make that grouping larger, and I am due for a trim, so I will take your advice and top/replant the stem plants. 

Btw - I appreciate all of the input, it certainly helps and gives me a bit of confidence to keep progressing.

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

A huge part of what I love about this hobby is it coincides completely with my outlook on life. Always have goals, always seek improvement, but relish the journey as that is truly where the enjoyment lies.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

The Dude1 said:


> A huge part of what I love about this hobby is it coincides completely with my outlook on life. Always have goals, always seek improvement, but relish the journey as that is truly where the enjoyment lies.


LOL, there is part of me that cringes at the memories of the journey, and there is part of me that enjoys looking back on the journey to see how far I have come. A year ago I could kill most plants in my tank. Now, I am doing much better. 

Sometimes you just have to plan on enjoying the journey


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

@Greggz


If you buy CaSO4 and MgSO4, it's much easier to dose, and cheaper.

I can just go buy a cheap bag of gypsum from Lowe's right? Figure that way I can use the rest on my lawn lol.

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> @Greggz
> 
> 
> If you buy CaSO4 and MgSO4, it's much easier to dose, and cheaper.
> ...


Possibly. I don't know if there is anything else mixed in with it? And I understand there are different grades? I'm sure someone must know. 

Either way, it's pretty cheap. $2.50 lb at GLA. And MgSO4 is $2.00 lb. By comparison, the GH Booster is $5.00 lb.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> Possibly. I don't know if there is anything else mixed in with it? And I understand there are different grades? I'm sure someone must know.
> 
> Either way, it's pretty cheap. $2.50 lb at GLA. And MgSO4 is $2.00 lb. By comparison, the GH Booster is $5.00 lb.


Oh geez, I guess I should have looked there first. I'll stop trying to reinvent the wheel and just buy from there - thanks!

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> Get the API GH kit. You won't need to test very often, and it will last a long time.
> 
> And yes, get a pH meter, along with some calibration fluids. pH test kits aren't nearly accurate enough for what you are trying to do.
> 
> ...


Ok.. @Greggz perhaps you can make some sense of this.

Degassed - 48 hours sitting out - 8.3
End of photoperiod - CO2 on - 6.6

I think I may have jumped the gun a bit on the ph meters and will be looking to purchase one that is better quality and reads to the hundredths, however, these are the readings I have so far. 

Another thing to note is that the tank sits directly adjacent to my furnace (wall between the two). I have a reef tank also in the same room, and I have depressed pH in the tank as well because of the furnace. I assume this would also drive down the pH in the freshwater tank? Not sure if any of this matters, just thought I would provide some background info.

Doing the math, it appears I am slightly overdoing it on the co2. Though from a visual perspective (counting bubbles) - I am maybe 2-3 bps. The fish do not appear stressed/laboured in any way. Thoughts?
















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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

And, just because...a FTS!

This will also be my first full week dosing EI, so I am curious to see what happens in the next few weeks.

And...I have cyano on my driftwood [emoji26]























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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> Ok.. @Greggz perhaps you can make some sense of this.
> 
> Degassed - 48 hours sitting out - 8.3
> End of photoperiod - CO2 on - 6.6
> ...


OK I will give you my thoughts. But I have to tell you I have no idea of how a furnace would affect pH. Never heard of that, and I know lots of people have basement tanks that probably aren't too far from the furnace. But maybe there is something there? 

First thought is if your degassed water is really 8.3, then your KH is extremely high, somewhere in the low 20's. Do you have a KH kit? I mentioned that above as you can get an idea if your reading is in the ballpark. A drop checker while not accurate would also give you a visual indicator if things make sense.

If you are really dropping it down to 6.6, a 1.7 pH drop, your Rainbows should be showing severe stress, if they were alive at all.

And 2 to 3 bps into a 75 is not that much. Should be closer to a steady stream.

So what that says to me is that I am not so sure I would trust that meter. Do you have 7.0 and 4.0 or 10.0 calibration fluids? So you can calibrate to 7.0 and then the slope?

Something just doesn't seem right, unless I am completely missing something with the furnace, which is not out of the question. 

So is the meter off? Is the furnace making a difference? About the only other thing I can think of is that you have something in the tank that is lowering the KH? That's another reason to get a KH kit, as you could test the water in the tank and compare to the tap.

Hope that helps. And the tank looks like it is starting to come along now. Looking forward to seeing where it goes from here.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> OK I will give you my thoughts. But I have to tell you I have no idea of how a furnace would affect pH. Never heard of that, and I know lots of people have basement tanks that probably aren't too far from the furnace. But maybe there is something there?
> 
> First thought is if your degassed water is really 8.3, then your KH is extremely high, somewhere in the low 20's. Do you have a KH kit? I mentioned that above as you can get an idea if your reading is in the ballpark. A drop checker while not accurate would also give you a visual indicator if things make sense.
> 
> ...


My thoughts in a nutshell as well.

Did some quick testing.

Tank KH - 5deg

Tap KH - 4deg

RO Water pH - 6.9

I'm going to buy a different pH meter. This one is calibrated to the solutions, but... Something is still off.

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> My thoughts in a nutshell as well.
> 
> Did some quick testing.
> 
> ...


Are you mixing RO water with tap? If so, no way degassed is 8.3.

KH 4 degrees should be about 7.5 or so pH.

So yeah, I would get a better meter for sure.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I can't help you with the meter thing, but your tank is really filling in nicely! I think you'll soon have considerably less trouble with algae and such. It's looking really good!
Also... I'm not understanding why the furnace would have any impact. Warm water has less 02, but you didn't mention temperature would I would assume is regulated. 
And again I agree... RO water should not be 6.9


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> I can't help you with the meter thing, but your tank is really filling in nicely! I think you'll soon have considerably less trouble with algae and such. It's looking really good!
> Also... I'm not understanding why the furnace would have any impact. Warm water has less 02, but you didn't mention temperature would I would assume is regulated.
> And again I agree... RO water should not be 6.9


Thanks for the kind words!

Gas furnaces emit CO2; this can be a considerable amount, especially during the winter months. The elevated co2 levels in the air, especially in open top aquariums, depress the pH levels in saltwater aquariums. (My reef tank experiences this). 

I'm not sure freshwater would be any different, though I haven't really taken the time to research. Also, it is worth noting that this pH drop is most likely insignificant in the freshwater world (0.25-0.5). I guess I was just thinking out loud and typing when I first brought it up.

But yes, the pH pen reads my RO water at 6.9, which is incorrect. I think the consensus is to get a new pH pen. I'll be ordering one today shortly!



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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but Greggz said it here "I would dry dose macros."

I currently mix a solution like ProndFarms for my macros, so I'm curios why you suggest going dry. Thanks!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ProndFarms said:


> Thanks for the kind words!
> 
> Gas furnaces emit CO2; this can be a considerable amount, especially during the winter months. The elevated co2 levels in the air, especially in open top aquariums, depress the pH levels in saltwater aquariums. (My reef tank experiences this).
> 
> ...


Very interesting!! Yes I can see that. It wouldn't be much, but it could be something... I don't know anything about what you non-Florida people do. I drove to school today with the top off and wearing a tank top and shorts. I still have the AC on in my house.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

vanish said:


> Don't mean to hijack the thread, but Greggz said it here "I would dry dose macros."
> 
> I currently mix a solution like ProndFarms for my macros, so I'm curios why you suggest going dry. Thanks!


The reason I prefer it is I like to observe the tank and make changes based on what I see. So dosing can change easily week to week, as I look for subtle changes and try to find the sweet spot.

And even changes in mass can have an effect. Increased mass might need a bit of an extra dose. A huge trim might lower it down. 

So dosing is no way set in stone. Sometimes need to change on the fly. I keep a spreadsheet with notes on dosing, and evaluate it all the time.

Having a months worth mixed up would never work for me.

A cheap weekly pill case/organizer works great so you are not measuring every day.


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## Glyphic (Feb 4, 2012)

LFS near me posts new incoming stock lists on Fb frequently, just saw this on his list:







You have some of those right?


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Glyphic said:


> LFS near me posts new incoming stock lists on Fb frequently, just saw this on his list:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do not, though it is an interesting one! 

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## Glyphic (Feb 4, 2012)

I just realized I looked at the wrong thread, DOH. That's what I get for posting while I'm slammed at work. Meant to post over on Greggz thread!


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Glyphic said:


> I just realized I looked at the wrong thread, DOH. That's what I get for posting while I'm slammed at work. Meant to post over on Greggz thread!


Ha, no worries. I almost tagged him because I do believe he has some of those.

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## TexMoHoosier (Dec 14, 2016)

ProndFarms said:


> Thanks for the kind words!
> 
> Gas furnaces emit CO2; this can be a considerable amount, especially during the winter months. The elevated co2 levels in the air, especially in open top aquariums, depress the pH levels in saltwater aquariums. (My reef tank experiences this).
> 
> ...


The small change in partial CO2 pressure from a furnace will not have an impact on aquarium pH, except a for possibly a minimal effect on pure RO water. If the CO2 in the room was that high, you would have trouble breathing in there:grin2:.

It really comes down to understanding buffering and specifically, buffering with carbonates. It doesn't matter if your KH is 0.1 or 20, but if there is nothing but a carbonate in the water buffering the pH, the pH will be about 8.3. The difference is that it is very easy to overcome the buffering capacity when the buffer concentration (in this case KH/carbonate) is low. Most people have other things buffering their tap water as well, so aged and/or diluted tap water may give a lower pH. It sounds like you're adding enough CO2 to overcome your water's carbonate buffering and drop the pH by ~1.7. 

As for the pH pen, keep in mind that different parts of your aquarium may have a different pH/different CO2 concentration, which can be very dependent on water flow. If it's calibrated, the pH pen should be close enough, but it's not lab grade equipment either. Insted of buying another pH pen, you'd be better off with a submerged pH meter with the probe in a high flow part of your aquarium. 

Hope this helps!


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Update 2-18-18

Completed my first few weeks of EI dosing, and I must say that I am noticing a decrease in the amount of algae, especially on the glass. I plan to continue for another week or so and monitor algae growth - hopefully I'm on the upswing.

On the negative side of things, I have noticed quite a bit more BBA, especially in the front corners of my tank and on the Driftwood. Not sure what to attribute this to? Perhaps low flow in those areas? The only circulation in the tank is what is provided by the canister spray bars and nozzle attachments, perhaps I should consider a small powerhead?

Lastly, when looking at my plants, much of the lower growth is covered in old decaying algae and matter - should I be removing these completely and replanting tops? Small sections at a time?

And for formality's sake, a few pics and a FTS.



















































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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> Update 2-18-18
> 
> Completed my first few weeks of EI dosing, and I must say that I am noticing a decrease in the amount of algae, especially on the glass. I plan to continue for another week or so and monitor algae growth - hopefully I'm on the upswing.
> 
> ...


It looks like you had some considerable growth since the last post. That is a good thing, means you are getting closer. IMO you are not that far off now.

What exactly are you doing for dosing? CO2 drop? Lighting (bulbs and duration)? 

Remember this is still a young tank, so some growing pains are to be expected. 

And yes, I would remove as much algae and algae infested portions as possible. Let the plants concentrate on new growth. You could even try spot treating some with hydrogen peroxide. 

Keep in mind with any lighting, there is some drop off in PAR at the edges. So what looks like L. Rubin might be happier closer to the middle, and what looks like Rotala. Rot. wouldn't mind the corner, as it doesn't need as much light. 

And also keep in mind that you won't be successful with every species. I have banged my head against the wall with a few, and decided better to stick to ones that like what I provide. Funny thing is I have more success sometimes with "difficult" species (Rot. Macranda Var., Pantanal, Pogo Kimberly) than some so called easy ones. No way but trial and error to find out.

So I am curious. How are you finding this whole planted tank experience compared to reefing? And you should post a pic of your reef tank sometime as well.


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

Remove those old algae infested plants leaves asap! Excessive algae kills the leaf, which causes excess bio matter, which brings on more algae.

For BBA, I do an H2O2 spray on the affected bits and the BBA turns red and disappears within a couple of days. This would be tough on your carpet - I usually do it during a water change on exposed hardscape and plants.

I'm betting the reason you have BBA in that corner carpet is lack of flow to that area, causing your injected CO2 to not reach it. BBA is usually the result of strong light with low CO2.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

vanish said:


> Remove those old algae infested plants leaves asap! Excessive algae kills the leaf, which causes excess bio matter, which brings on more algae.
> 
> For BBA, I do an H2O2 spray on the affected bits and the BBA turns red and disappears within a couple of days. This would be tough on your carpet - I usually do it during a water change on exposed hardscape and plants.
> 
> I'm betting the reason you have BBA in that corner carpet is lack of flow to that area, causing your injected CO2 to not reach it. BBA is usually the result of strong light with low CO2.


Thank you for the reply, and I apologise for the delay in response. I do, however, suspect that you are right. As I sat back and watched my tank, I noticed that I have VERY little water movement - both at the surface and in the water column itself. I plan to add a powerhead to see if this helps - though, I'm not quite sure what size to get? Any recommendations for a 75g?

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> It looks like you had some considerable growth since the last post. That is a good thing, means you are getting closer. IMO you are not that far off now.
> 
> What exactly are you doing for dosing? CO2 drop? Lighting (bulbs and duration)?
> 
> ...


Well, lol, this post alone let's me know that I need to keep better notes as I had to go back and look to see what I am even doing to my tank. That being said, I used Zorfox's calculator and made solutions based on a 75g tank size with a 30ml dose size. I alternate micro/macro doses for 6 days total, with a roughly 40% water change and rest on day 7. I do not add any buffer in as my tank does not seem to require it.

As for the lights, I run two bulbs, on and off at the same time, for 5 hours a day. No supplemental or off schedule lighting occurs. CO2 is set for an hour before lights come on and turns off an hour before the lights turn off.

Further, I'm struggling with the idea of topping my plants, pulling the bottoms and replacing the tops. Not for fear of the work, but as I look closer at them, I noticed that even the uppermost leaves have algae; not as significant as the lower leaves, but still very present. I will attach a few pics for reference.

Overall - I get decent growth (rotala grows like a weed and actually has very little algae) - slower growing plants (sword) have intense algae issues.

Should I be dosing Excel/metricide along with the EI dosing? Seems redundant with CO2? 



























































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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> Well, lol, this post alone let's me know that I need to keep better notes as I had to go back and look to see what I am even doing to my tank. That being said, I used Zorfox's calculator and made solutions based on a 75g tank size with a 30ml dose size. I alternate micro/macro doses for 6 days total, with a roughly 40% water change and rest on day 7. I do not add any buffer in as my tank does not seem to require it.
> 
> As for the lights, I run two bulbs, on and off at the same time, for 5 hours a day. No supplemental or off schedule lighting occurs. CO2 is set for an hour before lights come on and turns off an hour before the lights turn off.
> 
> ...


Looks some of the plants are showing nice growth and color.

Do you have your dosing broke down by ppm? Can't be sure what you are dosing based on description. And what are you dosing for micros?

What is your degassed pH value? And value at full pH drop? It could help determine what micro mix might be most effective for you.

As to topping and replanting, I would keep doing it. Plants can spend more energy on new growth. 

I would try lengthening the lighting period a bit slowly. Observe closely and look for any changes.

As to Excel, I used it for quite a while, even with CO2. Once things became more balanced, I stopped and don't use it all anymore.

When I started out, I had some swords left over from my low tech days. Eventually I got rid of all of them. They didn't like the strength of light required for fast growing stems, and their slow growing nature makes them an easy target for algae.

You are in the trial and error phase right now. Like I said, just keep a close eye on things when you make changes. I've said this before, but I think are getting closer. The color on the tops of your L. Repens looks good.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

What is the clover like carpet? Did you have to tie it down?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Looks like Hydrocotyle Japan. 
As to the algae thing... if you don't have alot of moss, subwassertang, stuff like that I would dose excel. It strongly correlates to plant mass... I really removed a ton in one of my 75 gallon tanks (the rainbow one) to stock my 150 and it caused a pretty heavy BBA situation on leaves close to the light. I means it's pretty bad. It's just going to take some time to balance, but you'll get there. I'm pretty aggressive about removing leaves with BBA, but I can tell you from experience that it is the right thing to do. I cut my lighting back and increased ferts. Just keep adjusting and it will get there. I think its part of the reason weekly trimming is suggested over bimonthly trimming or less. Trust me... trimming big bolbitus leaves is but wrenching... it takes forever for a frond to form... but once BBA gets a hold the leaf has to go.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

ChrisX said:


> What is the clover like carpet? Did you have to tie it down?


Sorry for the slow response, it is Hydrocotyle 'Japan'. Grows like a weed lol.

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> Looks like Hydrocotyle Japan.
> As to the algae thing... if you don't have alot of moss, subwassertang, stuff like that I would dose excel. It strongly correlates to plant mass... I really removed a ton in one of my 75 gallon tanks (the rainbow one) to stock my 150 and it caused a pretty heavy BBA situation on leaves close to the light. I means it's pretty bad. It's just going to take some time to balance, but you'll get there. I'm pretty aggressive about removing leaves with BBA, but I can tell you from experience that it is the right thing to do. I cut my lighting back and increased ferts. Just keep adjusting and it will get there. I think its part of the reason weekly trimming is suggested over bimonthly trimming or less. Trust me... trimming big bolbitus leaves is but wrenching... it takes forever for a frond to form... but once BBA gets a hold the leaf has to go.


Thanks for the info. I have started dosing Excel at 5ml/day in my tank. We'll see how that goes after a week or two.

Also - did a fairly large trim, removed some old decaying matter - hopefully that will help as well. I will post some pics tonight.

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

So it's been awhile since I have posted and thought I would provide an update, albeit a frustrating one.

I currently have a rampant growth of hair algae (to go along with the BBA) all over the tank - glass, leaves, pumps, you name it. 

I am getting a bit frustrating and ready to throw in the towel at the planted portion of this endeavor if I can't right this ship rather quickly as I clearly just do not have the knack for it. I have zero idea what I am doing wrong - I did take a quick test with a dip strip for reference. Not the most accurate I know, but gives me a good ballpark idea of where I am at.

I am going to try increasing my CO2 as well, as I tested it just now (lights and CO2 have been on for about 4 hours now) and pH measures about 6.6. Resting pH is about 7.2.

Attached a few pics of the dipstick test results for review. And pardon the semi-rant, lol - just frustrated.





































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## shamrock62081 (Jan 29, 2006)

ProndFarms said:


> I am going to try increasing my CO2 as well, as I tested it just now (lights and CO2 have been on for about 4 hours now) and pH measures about 6.6. Resting pH is about 7.2.


Work on a 1 to 1.2 pH drop. You'll be amazed how much that will help in the battle.

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

shamrock62081 said:


> Work on a 1 to 1.2 pH drop. You'll be amazed how much that will help in the battle.
> 
> Sent from my KFGIWI using Tapatalk


+1. Or even more.

Mine and many others is more like 1.35. 

This can not be underestimated. 

Good luck and I am pulling for you. Don't give up, you have got this, just takes some time.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

So I thought of you after my experience yesterday. I have just lost my patience with the BBA outbreak in my Rainbow tank. I decided to do some spot treatments on the Bolbitus. Not thinking clearly I used a 30ml syringe and probably went through 150ml in total. Then I decided to dose 10ml of metricide. I realized later that this is pretty much exactly the "one two algae punch" that many discuss on here. It then hit me that a 50% water change is recommended following this treatment. It had been a couple hours and I found 2 of my nerites dead. I did a 50% water change and noticed today that nearly all of the BBA is turning red / pink. I don't know what effect this will have on my moss as H2O2 killed all my subwassertang. It might be worth a shot if you remove your inverts and mosses and remember to do a 50% water change. I'm going to crank up the C02 a little today as well and see if that helps. Once this stuff gets a hold its tough to get ahead of it.


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

My anti-BBA device. I use it while the water level is low during a water change. Give it 10 minutes before the refill. Doesn't work if your BBA is still underwater during the water change.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

It would probably be a smarter way to use less to spot treat, but it definately works while stuff is still under water. I use a syringe and blast it right on the surface. Problem is it becomes toxic quickly in small tanks. In my case it was starting to get on all of the plants so I had to dose alot more than I realized.


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

The Dude1 said:


> It would probably be a smarter way to use less to spot treat, but it definately works while stuff is still under water. I use a syringe and blast it right on the surface. Problem is it becomes toxic quickly in small tanks. In my case it was starting to get on all of the plants so I had to dose alot more than I realized.


I just meant the spray bottle method doesn't work well under water. :laugh2:


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

vanish said:


> I just meant the spray bottle method doesn't work well under water. :laugh2:


It never occurred to me to use a spray bottle... with the plant surfaces exposed... that's pretty ingenious. I'll do a water change tomorrow and use that to blast the rest of the bolbitus... great idea!! I may be able to get it under control. How often do you do that?


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

So I've got a question... I'm losing the battle here. Lots of GHA, BBA, GSA. I do however, feel like I know what my mistakes were, so I am considering pulling EVERYTHING out, short of the substrate, and starting over. I would order plants ahead of time, transfer fish to a separate holding tank, drain the existing tank and completely clean it - glass, new tubing, filters, etc., refill, plant the new plants, and finally add the fish back. I would expect the whole process to take several hours.

It is my belief that the existing plants as a whole are too far gone - there really isn't much to salvage. Thoughts on this? I'm certainly not giving up - just a fresh start.

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ProndFarms said:


> So I've got a question... I'm losing the battle here. Lots of GHA, BBA, GSA. I do however, feel like I know what my mistakes were, so I am considering pulling EVERYTHING out, short of the substrate, and starting over. I would order plants ahead of time, transfer fish to a separate holding tank, drain the existing tank and completely clean it - glass, new tubing, filters, etc., refill, plant the new plants, and finally add the fish back. I would expect the whole process to take several hours.
> 
> It is my belief that the existing plants as a whole are too far gone - there really isn't much to salvage. Thoughts on this? I'm certainly not giving up - just a fresh start.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


Have you tried the whole tank algae treatment? My massive BBA outbreak is almost completely gone. Still a few areas that are dead and not completely cleaned up. Are you dosing metricide? I'm back to dosing 6ml a day in that tank as well to stay ahead of it. I dosed 15ml a day for a very long time when it was less densely planted. Take out snails and shrimp before the H202, but other than that why not try?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> So I've got a question... I'm losing the battle here. Lots of GHA, BBA, GSA. I do however, feel like I know what my mistakes were, so I am considering pulling EVERYTHING out, short of the substrate, and starting over. I would order plants ahead of time, transfer fish to a separate holding tank, drain the existing tank and completely clean it - glass, new tubing, filters, etc., refill, plant the new plants, and finally add the fish back. I would expect the whole process to take several hours.
> 
> It is my belief that the existing plants as a whole are too far gone - there really isn't much to salvage. Thoughts on this? I'm certainly not giving up - just a fresh start.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


I'm sorry to hear the battle is not going well. 

So what do you think is going on? And what would you do differently now?

Are you still on 5 hours of light? Still running two bulbs? Remember too little light can cause as many problems as too much light with fast growing stems?

What dosing are you going to go with? What are you dosing for micros? 

Did you get the pH drop figured out? I know for awhile your readings just weren't making sense. What do you think your degassed pH is now? And the drop?

I have a spreadsheet that I created to keep track of many of these things. You can download it in the first post of this thread. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1221018-custom-micro-mix-thread.html

It might be an easier way for you to post all of your parameters. I screen shot the spreadsheet then post the .jpg.

Now starting over? If it's really far gone, maybe not a bad idea. But based on your last FTS, you might be able to save some of the faster growing stems. You could pull them, remove the really bad parts, and then maybe a spray of hydrogen peroxide before they go back in. 

Good luck and I hope things start going your way. By the way, how are the Rainbows doing??


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> Have you tried the whole tank algae treatment? My massive BBA outbreak is almost completely gone. Still a few areas that are dead and not completely cleaned up. Are you dosing metricide? I'm back to dosing 6ml a day in that tank as well to stay ahead of it. I dosed 15ml a day for a very long time when it was less densely planted. Take out snails and shrimp before the H202, but other than that why not try?


Well, I have been dosing Excel for about a week now, and it actually seems to be making the problem worse. Could be coincidence, as there is no rational explanation as to why it would make it worse (that I know of)....

As for the whole tank algae treatment, I can do that, but like I said, not much left to work with.





































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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

Looks like plenty to work with to me. The tops of most of those plants like just fine.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

vanish said:


> Looks like plenty to work with to me. The tops of most of those plants like just fine.


Ha. I need to provide better pics then!

In all honesty, probably the first 2-3 nodes of each plant are good, beyond that - meh.
That also doesn't leave me much, and I guess perhaps is part of my hesitation.

I struggle with a lot of the logic in this hobby I have come to realize. On the reef side, there are exact parameters to hit, and exact reasons for being there. On the freshwater side, it's all about ranges, without any real reasoning behind the madness. What works for one tank may not work for another just doesn't resonate with me - how can it be scientific fact if it doesn't always work? How can 4 T5 bulbs over a six foot tank (everything else held constant), not provide the exact same results?

Much of my struggle is because it simply does not make sense. Sure, I've learned along the way and realized that my CO2 has been too low, fert dosing needs improvement, etc., but I still thirst to know WHY I am doing these things. With EI dosing I feel like I am blindly dumping into the water because the calculator tells me that's how much to use. Further, if I am only changing 50% of the water per week, and my plants only use 40% of what was available, aren't I theoretically left with 30% left? Won't this add up over time? 

At this point this post has become a rambling mess, so rather than delete, I'll leave as I do believe there are some pertinent questions in between the ramblings. As for my tank, as @TheDude1 stated, I don't have much to lose at this point, so this weekend I'll trim tops, tear out all bottoms and replant with what I have left, do a heavy dose of Excel, cut the lights and hope for the best!



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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Not necessarily a rambling mess - just expresses the frustration with the situation.
I do have to agree with vanish - should be able to save some of each species. Don't know exactly what you mean by "cut the lights" but I certainly would not go dark on the new plants. I would agree that a massive reduction on plant volume would dictate less "food" but I do believe the new plants will need an appropriate amount of light. The key seems to be finding a "balance" and thats what seems to drive most of us nuts (me included). 

Regarding your question about 40% used by plants and 50% changed every week. Math can be an interesting animal when dealing with percentages. One of the old nutrient calculators did a wonderful graph that tried to explain how water changes and dosing worked. I think one of the newer calculators does the same thing. Anyway, if you can follow along on the spreadsheet below - Lets say you add 30ppm of KNO3 3 times per week. That should be 90ppm. If the plants use 40% you are left with 54ppm. Then at the end of the week you remove 50% of the 54ppm thru a water change which leaves 27ppm in the tank. Next week, same thing but you are starting the week with 27ppm KNO3. 27ppm + 90ppm added is 117ppm at the end of week 2. Then 90ppm + 35.1ppm is 125.1ppm at the end of week 3 and so on. 

Now, follow along on the spreadsheet left to right. Funny how removing 40% with plants and 50% with water change leaves you with 128.6ppm on the 8th week. Assuming nothing ever changes, you will stay at 128ppm, or 38.57ppm after water change forever.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Immortal1 said:


> Not necessarily a rambling mess - just expresses the frustration with the situation.
> I do have to agree with vanish - should be able to save some of each species. Don't know exactly what you mean by "cut the lights" but I certainly would not go dark on the new plants. I would agree that a massive reduction on plant volume would dictate less "food" but I do believe the new plants will need an appropriate amount of light. The key seems to be finding a "balance" and thats what seems to drive most of us nuts (me included).
> 
> Regarding your question about 40% used by plants and 50% changed every week. Math can be an interesting animal when dealing with percentages. One of the old nutrient calculators did a wonderful graph that tried to explain how water changes and dosing worked. I think one of the newer calculators does the same thing. Anyway, if you can follow along on the spreadsheet below - Lets say you add 30ppm of KNO3 3 times per week. That should be 90ppm. If the plants use 40% you are left with 54ppm. Then at the end of the week you remove 50% of the 54ppm thru a water change which leaves 27ppm in the tank. Next week, same thing but you are starting the week with 27ppm KNO3. 27ppm + 90ppm added is 117ppm at the end of the week.
> ...


Thank you for the reply and the graph is well, it always helps to have visual aids. So in theory, it saturates to the point of the plant usage. Ie, if plants use 60%, the saturation point would still be a constant number at the end. The key is determining what that number is. In the case of lower plant volume, that final NO3 number will be higher because they will be using less.

Because the plant mass is always changing, this is just a rough guideline and will never actually be totally achieved because if inconsistencies in plant uptake, tank trimmings, etc. That being said, is there a point where NO3 is too high? I'm assuming there is and that is why many of the hobbyists adjust their ferts on a weekly basis. Is there a relationship between par/pur and the amount of excess NO3 that is tolerable? At some point I would assume this would contribute to algae growth?

I appreciate the feedback immensely - I'm just struggling to grasp it all. I'm so programmed to achieve certain values from my reefkeeping side that I feel like I'm still searching for that golden ticket that doesn't exist?

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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Maybe this will help. 
First 6 bulbs has an incredible amount of variation. Reflectors, spectrum of bulb, the transparency of the lens, use of glass tops and we haven't even hit the water!! The height of the plants and their position in the tank will dictate the amount of PAR they recieve. This signals the photosynthetic pathways to generate ATP and NADH. 
EI is just an estimate to get you in the ball park. You can compare two 35 year old men.. brothers... if one brother has an extra 60lbs of muscle mass not only will the energy he needs to maintain his body be dramatically higher, but he will have a higher expenditure when active. Think of this as plant growth. Yes you would end up with an abundance if the system were fixed or complete homeostasis... it is not. Plant mass is always increasing. Stems become thicker, root systems become larger and more complex. 
Algae are less complex organisms that replicate faster and with a wider range of conditions. You must find a balance. You can leave your lights on 24 hours a day, but plants will not remain photosynthetic for this entire time. When plants are done for the day so to speak there will be very little competition for nutrients and algae will photosynthesize unabaded. 
Do you understand? Set up your system and slowly set variables... 
I started at 3 bulbs for 4 hours a day then 1 bulb for 3 hours. I did 1/2 EI and only dosed micro's and macro's twice a week. I dosed 10ml of metricide purely as an algaecide. Eventually it became clear that plants needed more. I increased the 3 bulb period and added a 3rd dose at 1/2 EI. Slow progression and evaluation. You are manipulating a competitive environment. Stacking the deck if you will. Sometimes you have an injury and have to take a step back then slowly work your way up again.
I WOULD NOT start over. 
What I would do... full tank algae treatment. Then go in and remove every badly infested leaf. Pull out some stem and plant the tops.. 3 bulbs 6 hours a day with 1/2 EI dosing. Anytime you see a leaf that appears worse for wear from algae remove it. Keep the excel at 10ml daily. Large plant mass = more stability. Don't be so gung ho about increasing ANYTHING.
If you tear out all those plants your going to start right back at zero... unless you've got a couple hundred to blow in the For Sale section.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Hey Prondfarms probably not an issue but what is your substrate? I don't recognize it and just curious.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> Hey Prondfarms probably not an issue but what is your substrate? I don't recognize it and just curious.


Ha. Please give me a reason to get rid of it!

It is just basic blasting sand. Unfortunately I bought it from Menards as it was labeled 'black blasting sand', but as you can see it is more of a mud color, and I really despise the way it looks in the tank. When viewed from underneath there is quite a bit of visible root mass, so the plants have no issue rooting in it. All in all, I'm sure there's nothing harmful leeching from it, I should have just stuck with the black diamond sand.

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> Maybe this will help.
> First 6 bulbs has an incredible amount of variation. Reflectors, spectrum of bulb, the transparency of the lens, use of glass tops and we haven't even hit the water!! The height of the plants and their position in the tank will dictate the amount of PAR they recieve. This signals the photosynthetic pathways to generate ATP and NADH.
> EI is just an estimate to get you in the ball park. You can compare two 35 year old men.. brothers... if one brother has an extra 60lbs of muscle mass not only will the energy he needs to maintain his body be dramatically higher, but he will have a higher expenditure when active. Think of this as plant growth. Yes you would end up with an abundance if the system were fixed or complete homeostasis... it is not. Plant mass is always increasing. Stems become thicker, root systems become larger and more complex.
> Algae are less complex organisms that replicate faster and with a wider range of conditions. You must find a balance. You can leave your lights on 24 hours a day, but plants will not remain photosynthetic for this entire time. When plants are done for the day so to speak there will be very little competition for nutrients and algae will photosynthesize unabaded.
> ...


Oh I get it. What I fail to get is how a person ever knows where they truly stand, and I guess the answer to that is by the plants reaction.

How did you know to start at 3 bulbs for 4 hours and 1/2 EI? Just a guess? If you started too low on light duration/ferts wouldn't algae have been an issue as well? 

I understand the concept of finding the balance, truly, I do. I understand what is supposed to happen.I What I don't understand is knowing where to start, and what to look for when algae does appear. How does one know if they have too little/too much light as both can cause algae? 

If excess nutrients are the focus of EI and excess nutrients don't necessarily cause algae, then why only dose 1/2 in the beginning? 1 stem or 100 stems, their photosynthetic process is the same as are their nutrient needs. The quantity of plants may change, but EI aims to overshoot regardless, so why change the dose? There is clearly a page in the planted tank book that I haven't read lol.

On a side note - I appreciate all of the input from everyone. My questions and frustrations are not meant to sound argumentative, merely curious. I also hope that perhaps this thread will be helpful to others that are having difficulties and by asking questions they can find their own solutions.

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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

ProndFarms said:


> How did you know to start at 3 bulbs for 4 hours and 1/2 EI? Just a guess? If you started too low on light duration/ferts wouldn't algae have been an issue as well?


EI is based on having more than enough ferts, then knocking them down each week with a large water change. This is "ez" because the plants "should" have everything they need, and if you have good lights and circulation, the plants "should" out compete the algae.

To get in the ballpark, what you can do is start at half EI dosage and do frequent nitrate tests. If you have high light and tons of plant mass, you may see your nitrates dropping even though you are dosing daily. In which case increase. OTH, if nitrates are getting above 30ppm, you know you are dosing more than your plants need. You could dose full EI, but if nitrates get high its bad for the animals.

EI ferts are in correct ratios, so usually if you do half of macros, you can also do half of micros.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

ChrisX said:


> EI is based on having more than enough ferts, then knocking them down each week with a large water change. This is "ez" because the plants "should" have everything they need, and if you have good lights and circulation, the plants "should" out compete the algae.
> 
> To get in the ballpark, what you can do is start at half EI dosage and do frequent nitrate tests. If you have high light and tons of plant mass, you may see your nitrates dropping even though you are dosing daily. In which case increase. OTH, if nitrates are getting above 30ppm, you know you are dosing more than your plants need. You could dose full EI, but if nitrates get high its bad for the animals.
> 
> EI ferts are in correct ratios, so usually if you do half of macros, you can also do half of micros.


This. This. This.

Now I get it. Start out ballpark close and adjust from there. Know your starting values, know what you are adding and adjust accordingly. And 30ppm NO3 being the rough imaginary line that dictates more or less?

I missed all of this in the beginning. What I thought was enough research wasn't nearly enough, lol. I dosed haphazardly, with PPS-PRO in the beginning, which admittedly probably did suffice, then as plant mass grew I did not execute properly, algae bloomed, I switched to EI as the savior, and unfortunately did not execute EI properly now I'm left with an algae mess.

Kudos to all of you for the help. And I'll take the advice offered, trim tops, clean the tank, do a whole tank treatment and start (partially) over. And @Greggz I think you had me on the right path all along, I just failed to properly take the correct measurements. I think this time around I'll make a spreadsheet as many of you already do to properly track progress and tank changes. 

Who knew this could be so challenging!

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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Heya Prondfarms, Phil here. I've finally discovered your journal and just finished reading through all of it. First off, let me tell you, I feel your pain. A year ago I was going through similar issues as I was trying out new tech and having to relearn some things based on "upgrading" to new technologies; specifically my lights, new brand of substrate, and a CO2 system that wasn't working as expected. 

Greggz and ChrisX have given some great advice, if you'll indulge me I'd like to add my own and restate theirs.

1. You made a really profound statement a few pages back about saltwater requiring exact parameters where freshwater was more flexible. From an ecological standpoint the ocean's been pretty much homogeneous for the past few hundred million years or so, but fresh waters vary immensely. If exact parameters are something you work well with, then go with exact parameters. Forget this "Full EI" or "PPS Pro" stuff and focus on the concentrations of the nutrients you're putting into the tank. EI is no hard and fast rule, it's called the _Estimative_ Index for a reason. I've never been a big fan of PPS or PPS Pro. It's just too nitpicky for me. Here are some numbers for you to shoot for. I like Rotalabutterfly as it's easier for me to use. Whichever one works best for you, just calculate out the volume (tsp, tbsp, 1/2 tsp, etc) needed to hit these numbers. Then dose them a few times a week and do a big water change at the end of the week. 

NO3: 15 ppm with 4 bulbs, 7.5 ppm with two. I've got the 6 bulb Agrobrite but am currently only running 2 bulbs on a 4x2 80gal.
PO4: 0.5-1 ppm This is the first thing I increase if I start seeing my plants decline or not respond well to an increase in CO2. 
K: 20 ppm
Ca: 15 ppm
Mg: 5 ppm
Fe: 0.1ppm if you're using CSM+B. If you're using Burr's magic micro mix method then disregard Fe.

I like a KH of 4, if that's something you can achieve. If not, work with what you've got and go for that 1.2 pH drop.

There you go, numbers to start with that have worked for me for 20 years now. You may (will) need to adjust this up or down a few ppm depending on the unique needs of your system, but these concentrations are where I always start for this type of system. As ChrisX said, when biomass increases, increase nutrients. 

2. Looking through the pictures of your tank I noticed something: some of the stems are planted too closely together or in one giant bunch. When it comes time to replant I would recommend cutting off the top 6 inches and using that. With the thin stemmed and small leaved stuff like the Rotala, take groups of two or three stems only and plant them 0.5 inches apart. With broad leaved stems like the Ludwigia, plant individual stems far enough apart so that their leaf tips barely touch. This will give you two important things; a high leaf area index (LAI) and room to replant tops and build nice thick bunches.

What is LAI and why is it important? Leaf Area Index is an index of the total area of leaves from top to bottom. You've probably noticed that different types of plants arrange their leaves in different ways. They do this to maximize intercepting light and is one of the reasons the "Plant heavily from the start." rule of thumb came about. By spacing your stem plantings out you're increasing LAI and therefore increasing overall light interception/use in the tank. This then increases overall photosynthesis and O2 concentrations which then stimulate bacteria to digest organic matter which then helps reduce algae. 

Oh yeah, it also helps the plants grow faster, healthier, and be more colorful.  Another benefit is water will (should) flow around the stem bases more easily, thereby increasing removal of particulates and transport of carbon and nutrients to the plants. This is mostly true in newly planted systems rather than older, more lush ones. 

3. YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!! 

4. Keep your hands out of the tank and be consistent; aka The Reef Tank Rule. The more you try to maximize each little thing chasing some sort of magical number(s) you'll end up tinkering your tank to death. *Planted aquariums are ecosystems* and each time we change something, that ecosystem gets thrown out of what and has to basically restart again (water changes and trimming, but not pulling out and replanting, excluded). Decide on your maintenance regimen and nutrient concentrations and stick with it for three months. The only thing that should change in that time would be _*slightly*_ increasing or decreasing nutrients as biomass increases or gets a good trimming. 

For the sake of full disclosure: When I first started my current tank I ended up with a HORRIBLE string diatom issue. It was awful. What did I do like any sane high tech aquarist? I chased the magic numbers and tinkered the tank to death. Multiple times. Then I got sick and couldn't do it anymore and things improved immensely. Then I got even more sick and ended up in a hospital three hours from home and have a guy who's never kept a planted tank in his life, let alone a high tech one, taking care of my system based purely on the concentrations and water change frequency I gave him and the tank's looking fantastic. 

5. More is better...when it comes to nutrients. If you start seeing algae creep up, the first thing to do is clean the tank well then increase CO2, N, and P.....provided you're following The Reef Tank Rule. If not, clean your filters and give it two weeks then up things. As long as you're within reasonable concentrations; more, not less, nutrient input will benefit the ecosystem more than less when it comes to fighting algae. Just remember The Reef Tank Rule.

6. YOU CAN DO THIS! If you need to come here to bitch, whine, complain, whatever every day until things settle down, go for it. We're here to help you and We. Have. All. Been. There. Before.

Cheers,
Phil


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil Edwards said:


> 6. YOU CAN DO THIS! If you need to come here to bitch, whine, complain, whatever every day until things settle down, go for it. We're here to help you and We. Have. All. Been. There. Before.
> 
> Cheers,
> Phil


Nice post Phil.

Worth reading several times over.

And I really agree with you about stability. I just mentioned it's importance in my own journal. Jumping around chasing every little theory rarely works. I have taken to making SLOW changes.

And tank maintenance is not to be underestimated. IMO getting that right is half the battle.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Will have to second what Gregg posted above. Damn great advice and I do have to agree - we have all been here here before.


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## shamrock62081 (Jan 29, 2006)

Great post Phil. Definitely hard not to get frustrated sometimes. And harder not to tinker things to no end when something is off when you don't know what. 

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Phil Edwards said:


> Heya Prondfarms, Phil here. I've finally discovered your journal and just finished reading through all of it. First off, let me tell you, I feel your pain. A year ago I was going through similar issues as I was trying out new tech and having to relearn some things based on "upgrading" to new technologies; specifically my lights, new brand of substrate, and a CO2 system that wasn't working as expected.
> 
> Greggz and ChrisX have given some great advice, if you'll indulge me I'd like to add my own and restate theirs.
> 
> ...


Phil,

Thank you for taking the time to read through the journal and offer your input. I have read your response several times now and I am quite pleased to hear you reference the 'Reef Tank Rule', as I feel that I do spend too much time with wet arms when it comes to my freshwater tank.

The reasons behind why I am doing certain things make sense now, ie 'have a reason', rather than just blindly going through the motions. I think one of the most difficult things about this hobby is that oftentimes you don't know what to ask until it's too late; perhaps I experienced a bit of that myself as I was a bit naive to the process in general.

Fortunately, due to the amazing support of yourself and many other people throughout this thread, and this forum in general, I will plod along. I'll make the changes, keep better records, and yes, keep my arms out of the tank!

Lastly, it's funny you mention that about my plants being too close together. I can't tell you how many times I've looked at my tank and thought the same thing, then thought 'oh well, they look fine, don't change what's working'. Looking back, I did notice a lot of debris that would collect around the stems because they were so close together. Moving forward, I'll head your advice and spread things out a bit. This actually leads me to another question - what does everyone use to plant their stems? Tools? Good ole fingers? I seem to have a difficult time with this more often than not.

Once again, thank you for the kind and informative reply.

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> Lastly, it's funny you mention that about my plants being too close together. I can't tell you how many times I've looked at my tank and thought the same thing, then thought 'oh well, they look fine, don't change what's working'. Looking back, I did notice a lot of debris that would collect around the stems because they were so close together. Moving forward, I'll head your advice and spread things out a bit. This actually leads me to another question - what does everyone use to plant their stems? Tools? Good ole fingers? I seem to have a difficult time with this more often than not.
> 
> Once again, thank you for the kind and informative reply.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


Personally I use tools, except for a few really thick stemmed species.

And to add to this theme, not only is spacing important, but trimming/pruning etc. becomes very important as time goes on. And it varies a bit from plant to plant.

In general, big bundles of overgrown large plant mass need to be culled sometimes. I did a post awhile back about tank maintenance, and showed how every so often I have to pull an entire patch of Limno Aromatica mini. It get's so thick it traps lots of debris and begins choking itself. 

I thin it out, trim it low, then let the growth cycle start again. True for many species, and a much bigger piece of the puzzle than I think most realize.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Greggz said:


> Personally I use tools, except for a few really thick stemmed species.
> 
> And to add to this theme, not only is spacing important, but trimming/pruning etc. becomes very important as time goes on. And it varies a bit from plant to plant.
> 
> ...


Any particular tools/types you'd recommend? Just long tweezers? 

And I am very guilty of probably letting my plants grow entirely too long without replanting. I can say for certain that the rotala sp. In the mid left of my tank has never been replanted, nor has the Limnophila mass in the rear right of the tank. Will have to do a better job of that this time around.

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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

ProndFarms said:


> Thank you for taking the time to read through the journal and offer your input. I have read your response several times now and I am quite pleased to hear you reference the 'Reef Tank Rule', as I feel that I do spend too much time with wet arms when it comes to my freshwater tank.


You're quite welcome. One of the things I get joy from in the hobby is helping people have success. If I can help somehow, I'm happy to do so.



ProndFarms said:


> The reasons behind why I am doing certain things make sense now, ie 'have a reason', rather than just blindly going through the motions.


Funny you say that. I'm the kind of person who can do a task much better if I'm told why and understand the reason/purpose than just being told to do XYZ and doing it and I find most people are the same way. That's why I try to explain reasons as much as possible when "telling folks what to do". 



ProndFarms said:


> I think one of the most difficult things about this hobby is that oftentimes you don't know what to ask until it's too late; perhaps I experienced a bit of that myself as I was a bit naive to the process in general.


I was never a fan of Donald Rumsfeld, but he once said something that's become a part of my teaching method. "There are known knowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns." There's nothing wrong with not knowing something, whether you know you don't know and can then ask questions, or not knowing that you don't know something and going through the experience. I've found that going through "unknown unknowns" provides more benefit as they've given me more awareness of changes and help me to come up with better questions and ask those questions sooner in the future. 

Just like in other parts of life, pride has no place here. Never be ashamed to ask even simple and "stupid" questions as soon as they come to mind. Oftentimes it's your intuition noticing something that other parts of your consciousness haven't yet. Here's a personal example; for the life of me I can't get Hygrophila pinnatifida to grow well in my tank. I've got my suspicions why, but I haven't hesitated to ask other folks who grow the hell out of it what they do. Eventually I'll have enough information to synthesize into the answer for my tank. Until then I let it plod/struggle along.

Fortunately, due to the amazing support of yourself and many other people throughout this thread, and this forum in general, I will plod along. I'll make the changes, keep better records, and yes, keep my arms out of the tank!



ProndFarms said:


> Lastly, it's funny you mention that about my plants being too close together. I can't tell you how many times I've looked at my tank and thought the same thing, then thought 'oh well, they look fine, don't change what's working'. Looking back, I did notice a lot of debris that would collect around the stems because they were so close together.


That's a mistake many new hobbyists, and even some with experience under their belts make. It's so easy to see pictures of tanks with lush groups of stems and want it without knowing that they're the result of a lot of time. I'm still guilty of doing this at times after watching too many Amano videos where all the stems are planted close together. My typical MO for stems like Rotala and Ludwigia is to initially plant like I said above then top and replant in the spaces left during the first planting. From that point I'll do another topping, leaving the lower parts of the stems in the tank so the new stems are all the same. When it comes time to trim again then I'll uproot the whole mass, give the section a thorough cleaning and replant the tops. Thick stemmed stems like Pogostemon and some of the Hygrophila always get topped and replanted unless I'm trying to propagate them, then I'll top and let new stems grow, but only do this once. 

*I ALWAYS thoroughly clean any area where I've uprooted plants* to make sure I get as much of the accumulated debris as much as possible. 



ProndFarms said:


> Moving forward, I'll head your advice and spread things out a bit. This actually leads me to another question - what does everyone use to plant their stems? Tools? Good ole fingers? I seem to have a difficult time with this more often than not.


It depends. I typically prefer to use tools and have accumulated a variety over the years as I have a specific need. Sometimes I'll use my fingers if I'm planting a large bundle/bunch of Crypts, say the size of a nickle to quarter that even large forceps would have trouble with. There are a number of very reasonably priced aquascaping kits available. I did a quick google search and found a number of kits for between 12 and 20 dollars.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Personally I use tools, except for a few really thick stemmed species.
> 
> And to add to this theme, not only is spacing important, but trimming/pruning etc. becomes very important as time goes on. And it varies a bit from plant to plant.
> 
> ...


This is something I've been thinking about with my Bacopa. In the top tank stems have grown into a big tangled mess. The leaves are small and sickly looking and the stems are so thin that they break apart in places and float. Unfortunately I just topped them and threw away the remaining nice tips that didn't go into my emersed set up. Is this something that occurs with all stem plants?


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Credit due to @Greggz here. I am on my phone and can't figure out how to do it properly, so ad libbing a bit here.

I thin it out, trim it low, then let the growth cycle start again. True for many species, and a much bigger piece of the puzzle than I think most realize.

I never did this - because I was always so worried about plant mass, removing and trimming a large portion of my plant seemed like a bad idea. Unfortunately for me, the bad idea was letting that large mass grow into an alright clump of decaying matter.

Thanks for the good tip.

Also, I'm fairly certain I need to find a way to switch my full employment to planted tank keeping.... I'm quite eager to try again with all of me newfound knowledge!

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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Dude,

If you top and toss stems too many times the new stems will eventually get too thin to be any good and result in what you just described. That's why I normally alternate between pulling the bunch up and replanting tops and topping and leaving the bases in the substrate. All that goes out the window when preparing for a competition or non-journal/everyday photo shoot.

Bump:


ProndFarms said:


> Credit due to @Greggz here. I am on my phone and can't figure out how to do it properly, so ad libbing a bit here.
> 
> I thin it out, trim it low, then let the growth cycle start again. True for many species, and a much bigger piece of the puzzle than I think most realize.
> 
> ...


A good plant hobby friend of mine once summed it up nicely when talking with a beginner in just your situation: "Plants like scissors", meaning don't be afraid to trim. It's better to cut the plants short and toss the larger portion of the mass then the opposite. 

If it makes you feel any better I went back to school to study plant ecology and water resources because of my love of the hobby. I ended up lucking out and getting a research project in growing aquatic plants. Unfortunately that also came with a load of student loans.  It's better to keep your day job and enjoy the hobby as much as you can as hobby.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Also - last question. 

One of my canister filters died yesterday. And...I have to be honest, I hate cleaning them. They are heavy, bulky, a pain to drag out from underneath the tank... So I probably shirk maintenance more than I should. As a result, I'm thinking of switching to a wet-dry type of filter (the saltwater side of me screams this into my ear daily).

I could keep one of my canister filters on, and running, though I would prefer to give them both the boot. I'd put the CO2 reactor inline on the return and probably be a much happier man, lol.

Anyone see any ill effects from doing this? If obviously keep the canister running until the sump is up and going.

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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

A few thoughts on the above...
I have never run a sump so most things sump related I have no comment on though I do understand their benefits. That said, regarding the reactor you have to be a bit aware of how much water you are trying to run thru it. If you have a Cerges type, then a bypass circuit would be very beneficial. If you have a Rex Griggs than it should be less of a problem. If your new return pump is approximately the same GPH as the canister filter(s) you were using with the reactor then you should be fine.
I think your tank is a 75g, so same as mine. I was running a Eheim Pro4+ Model 350. My bypass valve was almost completely shut for the given amount of co2 being injected. I have since switched to a AquaTOP CF500 with nearly twice the flow. Now the bypass valve is at 50% and I can still fully dissolve the same co2 without restricting overall flow.

Just a thought.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I love sumps and canister filters make great CO2 reactors...


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Immortal1 said:


> A few thoughts on the above...
> I have never run a sump so most things sump related I have no comment on though I do understand their benefits. That said, regarding the reactor you have to be a bit aware of how much water you are trying to run thru it. If you have a Cerges type, then a bypass circuit would be very beneficial. If you have a Rex Griggs than it should be less of a problem. If your new return pump is approximately the same GPH as the canister filter(s) you were using with the reactor then you should be fine.
> I think your tank is a 75g, so same as mine. I was running a Eheim Pro4+ Model 350. My bypass valve was almost completely shut for the given amount of co2 being injected. I have since switched to a AquaTOP CF500 with nearly twice the flow. Now the bypass valve is at 50% and I can still fully dissolve the same co2 without restricting overall flow.
> 
> Just a thought.


Off the top of my head, my current canisters are two AquaTop 500s (one is rebranded something else, but basically the same) - I'd have to look back to see the exact specs/models.

Reactor is a Griggs style from NilocG. This is a beast, so not overly concerned with flow/CO2 absorption. I haven't completely thought through the return pump, but I'd probably use a controllable DC powered pump as I love them for my reef tank and they are more than capable of producing enough flow for what is required in a freshwater setup. The additional flow would come from a powerhead inside the tank.

Filtration in the sump would be limited to a coarse filter pad - the plants would do the rest.

Not set in stone, just a thought for now. Pic of reactor attached for reference.









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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

That looks like it'll handle a 75 gallon tank. 

As far as filter media is concerned, I would HIGHLY recommend using some other media in there. The bacteria in the filter are one of the parts of the system which process organic particles and dissolved compounds; things which are major contributors to algae. I used to use 3/4 to 1.5 inch lava rock for walkways from the garden center. That's an affordable and effective media for a sump. I'm currently running a bunch of CPR biobale in mine and it's working well too..and may actually be cheaper than the lava rock. The point being, the plants will address inorganic compounds, but a freshwater tank needs a filter to address organic compounds. 

Cheers,
Phil


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Phil Edwards said:


> That looks like it'll handle a 75 gallon tank.
> 
> As far as filter media is concerned, I would HIGHLY recommend using some other media in there. The bacteria in the filter are one of the parts of the system which process organic particles and dissolved compounds; things which are major contributors to algae. I used to use 3/4 to 1.5 inch lava rock for walkways from the garden center. That's an affordable and effective media for a sump. I'm currently running a bunch of CPR biobale in mine and it's working well too..and may actually be cheaper than the lava rock. The point being, the plants will address inorganic compounds, but a freshwater tank needs a filter to address organic compounds.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice.

I just checked out the biobale, as I'm used to the bio balls, which I would assume work just as effectively; interesting looking things. I assume like any other bio filter you run some sort of prefilter media ahead of them?

I have an old acrylic overflow box which flows into a compartmentalized sump chamber; this was used on an old 75g salt water tank many moons ago, I'm sure it will suffice for my needs now as well. Also eliminates my need for baffles! (Do freshwater sumps even use those?)

Anyways, I'm not trying to recreate my tank here, I just am looking for ways to take the 'chore' out of proper tank maintenance, and I would much rather clean out my sump than drag my canisters out and over to the sink weekly. Just my preference.

Also, and I'm sure this is probably an open-ended question that is full of personal preference, but is there a preferred method of return? Single nozzle? Diy spray bar?

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ProndFarms said:


> Also, and I'm sure this is probably an open-ended question that is full of personal preference, but is there a preferred method of return? Single nozzle? Diy spray bar?
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


My preference is spray bar aimed up to surface. Whatever you do, be sure to create surface agitation (oxygen).

Your Rainbows and plants will thank you.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I just checked out the biobale, as I'm used to the bio balls, which I would assume work just as effectively; interesting looking things. I assume like any other bio filter you run some sort of prefilter media ahead of them?

*Yeah, I run a prefilter sponge sheet in my drip try chamber. Hell, if you've got bioballs use them, same difference. I was using Poret foam in my media tower and wanted to change it out for exactly the reason you want to switch to your sump.*

I have an old acrylic overflow box which flows into a compartmentalized sump chamber; this was used on an old 75g salt water tank many moons ago, I'm sure it will suffice for my needs now as well. Also eliminates my need for baffles! (Do freshwater sumps even use those?)
*
No, they don't need them. It's all about the filter chamber/tower.*

Anyways, I'm not trying to recreate my tank here, I just am looking for ways to take the 'chore' out of proper tank maintenance, and I would much rather clean out my sump than drag my canisters out and over to the sink weekly. Just my preference.

*Amen.*

Also, and I'm sure this is probably an open-ended question that is full of personal preference, but is there a preferred method of return? Single nozzle? Diy spray bar?

*I prefer a single output, though I did rig up a double output bar for an old discus tank I did and that worked really well. Yet another benefit of a sump, you can put an airstone in there for agitation (or just don't seal it) without having to worry about getting "too much" or "too little" surface agitation in the tank. *


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

For my 75g I am running a DIY spray bar. It is located on the far right side at the top aimed at the left side. Intake is at the far left end near the bottom. Point is I can see how particles travel and this arrangement seems to work pretty well. As am with Gregg - spray bar is pointed somewhat towards the surface. When the tank is full (after water change) there is a nice soft ripple on the right side of the tank. Just before water change, well it is more like a torrid current across the tank. I also have a 425 gph power head right under the spray bar.

Curious, you had (2) AquaTOP 500 canister filters on the 75g? Wow, can only imagine how much current movement was in that tank assuming they have the same 525gph pumps as mine.

The reactor you have does have a bypass on it so regardless of the return pump you get you should be able to fully dissolve the necessary amount of co2 into the tank.

I also would recommend more than just a course filter pad.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Prond,

What do you use to clean your sump? I just drain mine as far as the pump will let me then shop vac the crap out.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Phil Edwards said:


> Prond,
> 
> What do you use to clean your sump? I just drain mine as far as the pump will let me then shop vac the crap out.


Well, funny you ask. I'll post pics of my saltwater setup in just a few minutes after I put my youngest to bed. 

But, to answer your question, I use a python. Remove the attachments and just use the hose; more than ample suction to get into all the nooks and crannies.

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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Sadly I can't do that as my sump and tub are on the same floor/level so I have to use a suction device. Looking forward to seeing your pics.


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Phil Edwards said:


> Sadly I can't do that as my sump and tub are on the same floor/level so I have to use a suction device. Looking forward to seeing your pics.


Ok, not much relevance I suppose to what we are discussing, but still fun to see the difference. 

Sump is a 100g Rubbermaid. Other pic is my water change station - top container for fresh RO water, bottom container for freshly mixed saltwater. 

Tank maintenance is a breeze; open a few levers, tank drains. Turn a few more and fresh salt water is pumped in. I can change 40g of water in 10-15 mins.























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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

That's badass. I was going to do almost exactly the same thing when I lived up in PA and had a basement full of tanks and stock tanks like yours. Scary. Then I found out how much electricity was where I lived. LOL


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Immortal1 said:


> For my 75g I am running a DIY spray bar. It is located on the far right side at the top aimed at the left side. Intake is at the far left end near the bottom. Point is I can see how particles travel and this arrangement seems to work pretty well. As am with Gregg - spray bar is pointed somewhat towards the surface. When the tank is full (after water change) there is a nice soft ripple on the right side of the tank. Just before water change, well it is more like a torrid current across the tank. I also have a 425 gph power head right under the spray bar.
> 
> Curious, you had (2) AquaTOP 500 canister filters on the 75g? Wow, can only imagine how much current movement was in that tank assuming they have the same 525gph pumps as mine.
> 
> ...


Good thing you asked, now I had to go back and look at what I have. 

First canister is a CF500, and second canister is an FZ9 (425gph). I do have to chuckle a bit though when I read these descriptions because there is no way these units are putting out that much water. First reason is they are restricted by the pipe size. Flexible vinyl tubing provides a ton of resistance (saltwater setups almost always use rigid pipe), and a 3/4" vinyl tube at max psi/flow would maybe, maybe touch 500gph (I'd have to search for the actual number, but I'd wager I'm close). Given head pressure, tons of elbows, bends, reactors, spray bars, etc - I'm guessing the actual flow rate through these units is half of what they are marketed at, or less.

The above being said, I didn't notice a huge amount of flow either, in fact, I was on the brink of adding a powerhead as I believe there was not enough flow.

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Phil Edwards said:


> That's badass. I was going to do almost exactly the same thing when I lived up in PA and had a basement full of tanks and stock tanks like yours. Scary. Then I found out how much electricity was where I lived. LOL


Haha, yes, I don't have the heart to tell the wife where the electric bill is. And what's worse this little $700 contraption tells you exactly how much energy you're using just to remind you daily how much this little hobby costs!









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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

And because we can't forget about these guys, a few quick, and albeit not the best, pics of my bows!





































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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

@ProndFarms do you have a sump running on the tank now? Or setting one up? I have a canister on each of my high tech tanks, but like you mentioned it only contains a coarse sponge and some bio media. I then have 2 AC filters on each tank that I alternate between cleaning biweekly. I only have to clean the canister filters once every 3 or 4 months like this. The AC filters do need cleaning every 2 weeks though... sometimes more often, but as you mentioned it takes less than 5 minutes to pull out the 6 course sponges from the 6 AC filters and clean them off. I may rinse the bio media if its got lots of gunk, but then I just plop them right back in. I don't ever turn the filters off.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

ProndFarms said:


> Further, I'm struggling with the idea of topping my plants, pulling the bottoms and replacing the tops. Not for fear of the work, but as I look closer at them, I noticed that even the uppermost leaves have algae; not as significant as the lower leaves, but still very present. I will attach a few pics for reference.


If you have some nice stems with a bit of algae, give them a 5 min 20% H2O2 dip before replanting. (1 part to 4 part water).


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

The Dude1 said:


> @ProndFarms do you have a sump running on the tank now? Or setting one up? I have a canister on each of my high tech tanks, but like you mentioned it only contains a coarse sponge and some bio media. I then have 2 AC filters on each tank that I alternate between cleaning biweekly. I only have to clean the canister filters once every 3 or 4 months like this. The AC filters do need cleaning every 2 weeks though... sometimes more often, but as you mentioned it takes less than 5 minutes to pull out the 6 course sponges from the 6 AC filters and clean them off. I may rinse the bio media if its got lots of gunk, but then I just plop them right back in. I don't ever turn the filters off.


No sump on the tank now. Goal is to eliminate the canisters completely. 

The AC units are very nice, the splashing water sound drives me nuts at the end of the week when the water gets low though lol. 

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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Well hello everyone. Wanted to post a quick update as I've been absent on the forms for quite awhile. I had some health problems which unfortunately left me away from the hobby for awhile and also unfortunately, what was left of my plants to pretty much melt away. I'm back on the mend and ready to give this a go, so I'll be posting some updates and questions in the near future but wanted to make a quick post about my situation.

And FYI, rainbows are all doing great and still in good health!

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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Sorry to hear about your heath problems. Went thru some rough times my self last year. 
Good to hear you are on the mend and your fish weathered the tough time.s just fine. Plants, in my opinion, are the easy part to deal with. Most stem plants grow like weeds and I'm sure there are many on here that would donate enough to get you back up and running.

As always, keep us posted on how your doing.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Hey Prondfarms glad you are feeling better. 

Those Bows must be getting pretty big by now.

Hope all goes well getting the plants back on track. 

Looking forward to updates once you get it going again.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I hope you get well soon and stay that way.

Regards,
Phil


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## ProndFarms (Sep 3, 2012)

Thanks for the well wishes everyone. I'm doing great and in a bit of a planning stage again as I try to source some parts for my latest iteration of the tank.

I think I am going with the H20verflow with stealth box. For the sump, I "think" I am going to go with a 29g, plexiglass dividers, and poret foam as the filtration medium. I'll also be adding a CO2 controller. All other equipment will stay the same. Needless to say, it wasn't the equipments fault last time, but operator error haha.

I'll be completely gutting the existing tank (which may not be a bad thing as I can get actual black sand this time, lol). So I will be hunting around for some new plant material and a decent layout.

Not much in the way of pics at the moment, but as soon as things start to happen I'll update.

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