# New shrimp tank, substrate help.



## Skruf (Jul 26, 2017)

Hello! 
This is my first post here, but i have been lurking for a few years finding answers to my questions about everything i have wondered for my 54L (14gal) tank during these years.
That being said, i now have a pretty spesific question that i think i need a post for myself to get answers to.

So lets get to it.
I have recently been looking into getting a small nano-tank to keep some RCS in. I really love shrimp but i have never been able to get them to thrive in my 14gal, due to what i suspect being some naught cherry barbs.
Therefore i have ordered a 2.6gal nano-tank to have a few RCS in.

Here comes the little problem, in the order i placed i chose to add a bag of Dennelre shrimp king active soil.
Link to soil: Shrimp King Active Soil | Dennerle

It looked all fine and dandy on videos and i thought it must be better for the shrimp to have something softer to walk on than sand or rounded gravel.
Not thinking any more about it, i placed the order and continued my frenzy of looking at nano-shrimptanks online and reading all i knew and didnt about RCS.

Then it hit me that the soil is both reducing the KH, GH and pH.
As far as the sticky in this sub-forum goes it says to keep the pH around 7 for RCS, but i have read they can tolerate anywhere from 6.2-8. I am worried that the Kh, Gh and pH might become too low for RCS?

My "state" (i live in norway so no states here) has this information about the watersupply:
Avarage pH of the supply from 101 locations is 8,14. Which is relatively high.
Though the Ca mg/L is only around 20,02 and that translates to around 2,9dH hardness. This being kH, which on the other hand is fairly soft.
And i tried to calculate the gH based on the information about the watersupply and got a value of approximately 4,4. Which also is fairly "soft".

*1. All that being said, would the soil reduce the ph to around 6.0-6.5 regardless of the pH of the tapwater?
I know about the buffering capacity and all that, but what i mean is: Is the soil going to work and use all its resorces trying to force the ph down to 6.0-6.5 even if i add carbonate to the water? Or will it settle for a higher pH.*

*2. And does anyone with some more knowlege about this, know if the pH, kH or gH would prove to be problematic for my future RCS?*

*3. Do you think i will successfully be able to keep and possibly breed some RCS in this tank, even though the pH, kH and gH will be low?
Im most worried about the pH to be honest*.

I do plan on keeping the tank planted though if that makes any difference.

_*TL;DR Bought active soil and plan on keeping RCS. Dont want to throw the soil away and i will be planting the tank. Will the substrate make the tank uninhabitable for RCS, given tap water being: pH: 8.14 kH: 2,9 gH: 4,4?*_
And sorry for the grammar, im not a native speaker! 

Thanks in advance!

Edit; I did also buy http://dennerle.com/en/products/nano-aquaristic/nutrient-medium-gravel/nano-deponit-mix to give the plants some nutrients so I don't have to dose the tank. I planned on having this under the Shrimp king active soil. If that makes any difference. Do you guys think this substrate will be good?


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## Skruf (Jul 26, 2017)

/Bump

Does nobody know, or are my questions too stupid to be answered? haha
Maybe i'm just being impatient


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## JonRon (Jun 6, 2017)

Hello,

Sorry for it taking a few days for someone to Reply to your post.
I will try to help you as much as I can. Do not take every one of my words to heart though because I am not as experienced as other on this site. Algae grower is my under title as you can see, I am not a Guru. 
I do not know how far the shrimpKing soil will bring your ph down, but it will. The Thing is though using tap water will will eventually make the soil loose all buffering capability, Rendering it useless in a short matter of time, a few month maybe. 
You can use a r/o System to help with this. I am not sure of your Location so here is a Website you could use for a referance.
Aquarium R/O Water Systems | GARNELENHAUS Online Shop

Hope I helped a little


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I usually only check out one forum/subcategory on this site, so if it's not posted in the Shrimp and Other Invertebrates, I don't see it unless it gets moved on over.



*1. All that being said, would the soil reduce the ph to around 6.0-6.5 regardless of the pH of the tapwater?
I know about the buffering capacity and all that, but what i mean is: Is the soil going to work and use all its resorces trying to force the ph down to 6.0-6.5 even if i add carbonate to the water? Or will it settle for a higher pH.*
I don't know what that soil naturally lowers the pH of the water down to, but I'm in agreement with *JonRon* here. Using tap water on a buffering substrate could result in the soil losing it's buffering capacities sooner and could potentially also result in pH swings.

The soil does what it can to reduce KH and pH in the water, you add tap, which may bring up the pH of the tank, with the added KH, then it removes the KH from the water column, thus reducing pH again. There may also be an up and down of TDS.


*2. And does anyone with some more knowlege about this, know if the pH, kH or gH would prove to be problematic for my future RCS?*
Although cherry shrimp can survive in lower pH parameters, many generally do prefer at least 6.8 pH and higher.

You would be better off looking into Tiger Shrimp or another type of Caridina shrimp... i.e. Crystals, Taiwan Bees, Tibees, etc.


*3. Do you think i will successfully be able to keep and possibly breed some RCS in this tank, even though the pH, kH and gH will be low?*
If you can find a supplier of juvenile shrimp kept in lower pH parameters with at least 5-6 GH, then yes, it's possible. Otherwise, no. Especially if you purchase adult shrimp kept in higher parameters. 


*I do plan on keeping the tank planted though if that makes any difference.*
Not really... other than the fact that shrimp like plants and plants are good for the tanks. Just make sure to avoid plants that may have been treated with copper.



*Edit; I did also buy http://dennerle.com/en/products/nano...no-deponit-mix to give the plants some nutrients so I don't have to dose the tank. I planned on having this under the Shrimp king active soil. If that makes any difference. Do you guys think this substrate will be good?*
That I know nothing about....

There are shrimp safe fertilizers though... if you can get a hold of any. ThriveS is one, but it's made in the USA. There's also some products by SL-Aqua, Shrimpernet, Borneo Wild, and another I can't recall at the moment...


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## KrypleBerry (May 23, 2017)

Ive been using tropica specialized plant fertilizer with shrimp, snails, and crabs with success.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

So tired of this shrimp specific fertlizer fad... At any sane level, all of the fertilizer we use for Aquariums are shrimp safe. Without a massive overdose, the copper amounts will not harm them.

If you never do water changes and go hog wild with ferts, then using some shrimp specific fertlizer is not going to save you.

I'm about ready to start up about 5 gallon just so I can show how far you have to OD to actually kill something like CRS...

#sorrynotsorry for the rant 

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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I could easily be wrong, but it's from my understanding that regular fertilizers raise the TDS of the tank through the roof and you have to do large water changes. Even if you cut the dose down, it can still change the parameters a lot.



With the fertilizers geared towards shrimp tanks, you don't need to do such high water changes because it doesn't change the TDS as much, nor the other parameters.

@clownplanted I know has had a bit more experience here in the regard of using regular ferts vs shrimp ferts.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Lol you are both right. I love this forum. My problem is not having a good enough eye to simply dose less using the standard EI liquid ferts compared to ThriveS. I honestly think using either one is fine. I just wasn't precise enough using the 5ml measuring compared to the 1 pump(1ml) per 5 gallons with the ThriveS. There is surely not a chance the copper levels dosing regular EI would cause a problem even for the most sensative shrimp. I mostly switched for the easability especially with a smaller tank. For example dosing full EI for my 60 gallon was really easy. Just under 15ml for macros and micros and done. 

But when dosing for my 20 gallon. And dosing only half EI well sometimes would be more and sometimes less. And trying to be more precise just wasn't working. So I went ThriveS because it's SO much easier to just do two pumps(I know ) as one pump per 5 gallons makes life so much easier and for me more precise. 

Now I will say I do have an easier time keeping my tds below 180 for a couple reasons. Well one @*Zoidburg* there is less most ingredients as to not raise the tds as much as standard EI. But I think for me mostly was because not accidentally using the full 5ml when it should of been 2.5ml or less lol. Especially that I dose when I first wake up before I've had my coffee. 

And here is the ingredients so yes ThriveS has less especially nitrates which is great and easier to keep that level down. If I simply would of dosed less though I would be close tds wise I feel. Trying to compare apples to apples here. Thrive vs ThriveS.

ThriveS
N 0.43%, P 0.062%, K 4.75%, 0.38% Mg, 0.009% B, 0.005% Zn, 0.38% Fe, 0.19% Mn, 0.0004% Co, 0.0009% Mo, 0.000003 Ni.

Thrive
N 3%, P 0.8%, K 9.4%, Fe 0.47%, Mg 0.062%, Cu 0.009%, B 0.023%, Co, 0.0002%, Mn 0.06%, Mo 0.0018%, Zn 0.016%

I did not use Thrive but his standard EI which is close to thrive. 


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And I will add that I agree also with @*natemcnutty* that it's a lot to do with marketing. If for the most part you just dose less to be on the same level with ThriveS and am sure others then in my mind it's just as good. I know the small amount of copper is not near enough to do any harm and in fact all living things including shrimp require copper to some degree. It's just at higher levels it prohibits their system but the EI levels are not near enough to cause this. I know this or every one of my CRS that have been alive from day one would not be. 


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Thanks for the breakdown @clownplanted! I do mix up my own from the EI package, and I kind of cheat by adding twice as much water. 

For some reason, CSM+B never did 100% dissolve for me in 500ml, but with just a touch more water it would... That's how I accidentally realized I could just double my water, and it made measuring my dose way easier. Bummer part is storing 500ml of extra ferts in spare 2 liter bottles 

Really, I guess it comes down to convenience, but I just really don't like the sales tactic of "contains no copper for shrimp because copper is bad for shrimp" fad that I see happening right now. My biggest thing is that shrimp keeping is already expensive enough, and I hate seeing all these added expenses that make people feel like they can't afford it. That's why I love the fact that I have CRS breeding well in 7.4 pH with inert substrate - no added costs over keeping neos, and I'm really hoping to do the same with BB's and BKK's.

I do like the idea of running a little leaner on nitrates though... Hopefully I remember the next time I have to mix up some ferts 

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