# On the verge of giving up on a planted tank



## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

Hey,

For years now I have struggled with my planted tank. I am unsure if it's my lack of attention, technology or knowledge, but nothing grows, everything melts and my tank is algae central.... some varieties of which have been unidentifiable by other forum users (not here I hasten to add :icon_smil).

I have a 180 Jewel tank with the standard corner filterpump. I have also added an additional fan to increase the flow around the tank.

Over the years I have tried various substrates (currently using Bonsai soil). I have tried CO2 via a FE, that worked nicely until the regulator broke and injected the whole FE into the tank overnight (luckily no casualties).

I am now, on what I believe to be, my final attempt before moving to Cichlids and rocks icon_smil Cichlids, :icon_frowRocks).

I have a fair amount of bogwood/driftwood, that my annubis melts on, that could possibly hide some small plant pots, thus I want to try and get plants in the tank, but in plant pots that contain planting tabs.

The general idea is that I use plants that get nutrients mainly from their roots rather than from the water itself, thus requiring no 'feeding/dosing'.

The aim behind this post is to get some suggestions and if possible, tips and how I should manage the suggested plants.

I'm not sure if, at this stage, I should discuss my algae problem?"!?!?!?

Regards

Lee

ps.. I'm in the UK and London, so my water is liquid rock essentially.
pps. My first post, so please be gentle :icon_smil

*EDIT*

Following suggestions from other sites, my lights come on from 1pm to 8pm.


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

What kind of "lights" do you have?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Welcome to The Planted Tank! In order to best help you we need to know what lights you are using, and the dimensions of the tank (even though it is possible to find that with Google). Everything else starts with what lighting you have, and to know that requires knowing details about the tank and the lights.

All plants can take in nutrients from both the leaves and the roots. Just because plants have good roots doesn't mean they are "root feeders". Anubias, for example, can be tied to wood or rocks, where the roots don't extend into the substrate, but they still grow well if the water is fertilized. Even terrestrial plants can be fed by spraying nutrients on the leaves, although they get their food from their roots normally.


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## doncityz (May 17, 2011)

It is really simple actually.
I'm no expert but here's my take on planted tank:
-all about balance btw 3 items - *light, nutrients, co2.*

So, if you want to have an "easy" planted tank, it is best to choose
easy and hardy plants:
-anubias.
-water sprite
-asian ambulia
-bacopa


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

Hey,

Thanks for the replies..... sorry I should have realised that my post was woefully lacking in detail.

Tank dimensions are 1000wx400dx500h.
The lights are the standard defaults. From a post on another forum (shock) I gathered that they are 2xT5's (no deflectors). The measure approximately 15mm in diameter.

I only have 7 small fish currently.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

How old are the lights? You may need replacements as T5s get dimmer over time. That's 500mm? So ~20inches. Here's a pic I found of your tank, look about right?










*Light*: depending on how long you've had it, I would change out the tubes to some new ones. If it's still very bright and new, then you may have too much light (relative to the amount of fert and CO2 in the tank). You mentioned an algae problem or reducing the light (add floating plants, red root floaters, water lettuce, frogbits), algae can be countered by simply planting more, or adding some algae eaters -- nerite snail, otocinclus, amano shrimp clean up crew.

*Substrate*: not sure what bonsai soil is, but if it's dirt it should have enough nutrients to grow plants, if in doubt stick in a few oscomote tabs, I don't think you need to change it out

*CO2*: although a lot would recommend you to gas your tank, I've found mine to thrive with just CO2 produced by the fauna

*Plants*: plants may be your problem--you probably just don't have enough, you mentioned anubias--a lot are grown emersed and will melt when submerged for the first month, try a large variety of plants, for 20" tall I'd recommend stems, they're fast growing and easy to propagate (green cabomba, ludwigia sp., rotala sp., etc), plant heavily and diversely -- shoot to cover every bit of the dirt. More plants = less chance of algae bloom, and healthier for fish. Check your aquatic gardens and stick to the cheaper species (usually easier), or head to your local stream like Tom and collect some.


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## huhu89151734 (Jun 29, 2010)

Additional to the bansai soil, I think it is something like a topsoil which have a lot of ammonia in it. You may need to prepare it before using in the tank, and you need to cap the soil no matter what. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

xenxes said:


> How old are the lights? You may need replacements as T5s get dimmer over time. That's 500mm? So ~20inches. Here's a pic I found of your tank, look about right?


That's the baby!

I've had mixed reports on the lights. Some say change them, some say stick with until they blow.

I've had the tank going on 3 years or so and have not changed them yet. Also, I've not noticed an degregation in the light, though I'd imagine this would be hard to notice over time.

I used to do well with the 'stem' plants, but then, like everything else, the algae took over. The tips would start going brown and then the plants would become very spindly.

My plan a short while back to was have a few Crypts and a ton of very bright anubis.... regardless of how long it took to grow.

Oddly enough, the Anubis grows fairly well in my tank, but the leaves only last one day with no algae and then have holes in by 4/5 days and are see through a few days after that.

I love Anubis and would happily have a tank made up mostly of that!

Regards

*EDIT*

The Bonsai soil is innert. The idea behind it is that it is very cheap and it soaks up nutrients from the water and holds onto them for a long time...... at least that is what the tests someone did over in UK Aquatics showed. 

From what I recall, it's clay baked to get the impurities out.

It's also a nice colour brown..... if such a thing exists.....

Regards


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

Planning planning planning. As the over proverbial saying goes, "failing to plan is planning to fail"

There is a lot of good advice that the other members are giving. I just like to add that you will need some structure. This is an amazing time to get into planted tanks. I started about 13 years ago and it was hard to find good information let alone a forum as great as this one to help you along the way.

Set your self up with a goal. Remember there is no unreasonable goal just an unreasonable time frame. So once you have an idea in mind about what you want your tank to look like, start from there. Would you like it heavily planted? Partially? Or a nice good old low tech moss scape. Find what will really make you happy with your tank.

Given such a large tank as your own, I can understand why you would want to cut some corners, believe me I have tried to in the past. But in the end, do it right and you only have to do it once. So although there is some things that you can cut corners about, be smart, there are only so many corners to cut.

For instance, if you do plan on a high tech tank, get some good substrate. ADA aquasoil is best for me because its so easy. Although expensive and it may be hard to get in the UK, it is well worth it. Or if you have time, make some mineralized soil. It works wonders for many people here.

Anyway, once you have a goal in mind, work each step, get the right information, give yourself a budget and you will get there. 

All the best from across the pond


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

I'd be perfectly happy with Anubis and moss's. I love both of them, and in reality, that is all i have in my tank now, bar two little crypts (if that is what they are).

I just can't keep the algae down long enough for the plants to grow. It wasn't always like this. Once I had a perfect looking tank..... it really was stunning.


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

No problem, just look up everything for low tech tanks. Algae may be an issue because of too much lights or too much ferts. But review everything over low tech tanks first and then start from there.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Are you using the CO2 now? Do you dose fertilizers? Do you have a crew of clean up critters?

I had lots of light, no CO2 and fertilizer and had loads of algae but my plants somehow out grew the algae so it didn't bother me back when I first set up my planted tank more than a decade ago. I still have more light than needed but the CO2 and fertilizer grow the plants strong and there is very little algae in my tank now. The cleaner my tank the better it all looks too so regular water changes and filter rinsing is also a good idea for my tank. My snails, otos, platies and bristlenose plecos scour and pick at all the tank surfaces constantly as well. I hope I never find out what my tank would look like without their help!


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

dr.tran said:


> No problem, just look up everything for low tech tanks. Algae may be an issue because of too much lights or too much ferts. But review everything over low tech tanks first and then start from there.


Based on the holes in the leaves I'd say the algae is due to too few ferts rather than too many.


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

Just to answer a few questions.

There are no ferts happening and no CO2.
I have approximately 4 shrimps and two clown pleco's that constantly hover around, but I think I may feed them to much for them to keep munching at the algae.

The lights are on approximately 7 hours per day. Given that I have very few plants, do you think this is to much (also given that there is no ferts and CO2)?

Regards

Lee


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

You don't really need to feed shrimp if there are only a couple.
The plecos don't require a ton of food either.
In my opinion livestock aren't really the solution to algae issues.
Some liquid ferts may help, especially if your anubias are forming holes (nutrient relocation)
I may have missed it above, but what sort of algae do you have? Green, brown, stringy, slimy?


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

jccaclimber said:


> You don't really need to feed shrimp if there are only a couple.
> The plecos don't require a ton of food either.
> In my opinion livestock aren't really the solution to algae issues.
> Some liquid ferts may help, especially if your anubias are forming holes (nutrient relocation)
> I may have missed it above, but what sort of algae do you have? Green, brown, stringy, slimy?


At the risk of sounding like the 'hard done by bloke', I have/had them all.

I recently carried out a massive clean out due to what appeared to be very solid green slime that was sticking everything together.... it stuck grass's to the wall of the tank, it stuck my moss together for form shelves which gathered the waste in the tank.

I also have white cotton wool looking stuff that seemed to grow from the driftwood, though that certainly seems to have eased off now.

Brown was very prevalent on the mosses. They moss would start out nice and green on the new growth and within days it would be all brown, this also happened to the stem plants.

I have some pics from another forum that I will try and post.... though the recent green slime is not in there.

Lee


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

There... they came out better than I thought they would.

I'll try and get a picture of the recent green slime. It was mostly on the plants, but where i have cleaned it out there are random small spots on the substrate now.

*EDIT*

The substrate can be seen below too!


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

With the amount of light you have you absolutely have to use CO2 if you don't want a BBA garden, which you now have. That tank and light fixture were designed for a reef tank, which takes a lot more light than a planted tank. Along with the CO2 you absolutely have to dose the water - nitrogen (nitrates), potassium, and phosporous (phosphates), plus trace elements, including iron, and a little magnesium unless your water naturally contains adequate magnesium.

"Green slime" algae is blue green "algae", actually a bacteria. It usually shows up when you have too much light and when you are short of nitrogen (nitrates).

One thing you can try is putting a layer of fiberglass window screen, sold as insect screen over the lights to reduce the intensity. Each layer will drop the intensity by about 40%. One or two layers will do it.

As bad as your BBA is now I think you should replace all of the plants, clean everything else in the tank very well to eliminate all of the living BBA, and start over with lower light and good fertilizing.


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

I don't see anywhere if the T5s are HO or NO, which makes a pretty big difference. I'd guess HO by the BBA, but no guarantee. If that is the case I agree with Hoppy that CO2 or less light is in order.
Continuing to be in agreement (he does know his stuff), the slime is BGA and tends to go away on its own once you have some nitrates in the water (always does for me). It also looks like you have some GSA on your anubias (low CO2 or low phosphates) as well as plants that are starved of something, and trying to move nutrients from their old leaves.


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

Is the 'screening the light' a better soloution than just reducing the time the lights are on?

The tank sits in a relatively shaded room and is also in the darkest corner, so it only really gets light from the tank and nothing else.

I really do not want to be dosing or CO2'ing my tank. 

Was my original idea a poor one? Plants in baskets with tabs? Or, given I dont want to dose or CO2, should I just restart and stick with anubias and mosses?

If I do that, I assume a non-descript (sand etc) would be sufficient for substrate?

Regards


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

leemonk said:


> Is the 'screening the light' a better soloution than just reducing the time the lights are on?
> 
> The tank sits in a relatively shaded room and is also in the darkest corner, so it only really gets light from the tank and nothing else.
> 
> ...


No, less hours of light isn't the same as less intensity of light. Too much of either and you have a problem, but you can't just trade one for the other.
Light drives the need for nutrients, less light = less need for nutrients. Get the light low enough and the fish excrement may be sufficient. Root tabs would be sufficient with a low lights setup, and would only need replacing every 6-12 months.
We do need to know if your T5 is a high output T5 or a normal output T5, this is really important.
I've had great luck for years with crypts, easy stems (rotundifolia, l. repens) in low light tanks with no ferts and few fish. The plants looked a lot nicer once I started adding root tabs once/year, but they weren't required.


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

jccaclimber said:


> We do need to know if your T5 is a high output T5 or a normal output T5, this is really important.


Hi,

How can i find this out?


ps... thank you all for your support and patience


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

The bulbs are probably marked with a wattage on the bulb somewhere, or a model number. Tell us what's written on it and we'll tell you what you have. Also, I find T5 NO bulbs to be somewhat dim, whereas T5 HO bulbs are rather blinding.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Can we get a full pic of the tank, to see how densely planted it is?

From my experience of dealing with algae naturally... more plants = less algae, then add nerites, amano shrimp, otocinclus to balance out the remaining growth, there will always be some, key is finding balance. A little Flourish Excel will also help with control every now and then.

Less light = less algae growth but also less plant growth. I would really just plant more heavily  and add some floaters to suck up excess nutrients.

3 years is a little long for the bulb, I'd find some new ones, I recently replaced my Aerogarden (little hydroponic system) bulbs that were about 2 years old, and plant growth really took off.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Since you almost certainly have far too much light, using old bulbs is an advantage because they can deteriorate enough to drop the intensity by as much as 50%. I'm almost certain that the standard light for that tank is T5HO.


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

I'll get some up to date pictures shortly..... battery is now charging.

I've managed to remove one of the lights (first time) and there is no writing on it anywhere.

If it helps, the two pins at either end are only 2 or 3mm apart. I'll keep the bulb out for now incase there is something I am missing.

Regards


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)




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## kalawai2000 (Jan 15, 2011)

Yikes! If that was my tank I would do what Hoppy suggested, redo it with a better planted tank substrate and lots of fast growing plants and floating plants. Please don't give up hope we are here to help you.


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## Kevchan (Jul 11, 2011)

You have gotten alot of good advice from these members. Im sure you can go low tech if you wish, or with the set up you have you just need co2 and a good substrate for the high tech. I run High tech set ups because I like to see my efforts grow quickly. Being indecisive about your setup will cost you like it has in the past. 

I like to surf around this forum seeing what others are doing differently from me, which helps me alot. Learning from what others have learned WILL save you hundreds of dollars in trail and error plus substrate costs and what ever you decide to buy and doesn't work out. 

Marine saying:
One shot one kill


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## rollinghills (Sep 19, 2011)

Are you interested in getting guppies? I'm asking because that's how one of my tanks looked like before I put in a few guppies. Once I put them in they went to town on the algae. I have to admit I don't exactly know what type of algae I had but some of them looked like diatom and some are fuzzy/hairy looking and the guppies cleaned them up really good. Still some spots left but a lot cleaner looking than before. If you are interested in guppies it's worth a try. Just get a couple and see how it goes.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Pics are worth a thousand words, I kept thinking your bulbs were dim and about to burn out. I will echo what others have said. Even for 3 year old bulbs, they are too much light for what you currently have. Your anubias and crypts are both fairly slow growing, thus susceptible to algae growth. The tank is too sparsely planted, thus providing algae with an environment to thrive.

Kala is right, plant some stems (high growth plants). I don't know how good that substrate is, but I would prefer soil (miracle grow organic potting) + a sand & gravel cap. 

For that much light, you should plant about this much:









(My low-tech no maintenance tank under 1 single T5HO 54w, 3.5 months in)

You can go low tech and have rapid growth, in place of a CO2 tank you can have fish respiration, you'll probably want some shrimp and a couple more fish in there. 

Solution: stem plants + floaters + fauna.


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

Thanks for all the support chaps. I am getting option....which is great.

I have an FE sitting in the garage which I just need a regulator for, but its the maintenance on anything other than a lowtech that gets me.

I simply do not have the time to do gardening and water changes weekly.

SO, just to clarify.

I have problems because:

1. I have to much light.
2. I have to few plants.
3. I have to few fish.
4. I have no CO2
5. I have no dosing.

?????

I love the tank, and it sits in a great spot.... and my little one (only 2 1/4) loves helping me feed the fish, but I will not have time to dose or do weekly gardening (along with out outdoor garden )

At the risk of alienating some of you that have been very patient with me (and taught me lots), what about my original idea? Plants in pots hidden by the driftwood with a simple sand/gravel base?

If (and its a big IF), I were to re-setup on CO2. Could I avoid dosing?

..... and Xenxes........ that tank is stunning....... the kind of thing I dream of. Gonna have to find the link to that somewhere. Out of interest, do you have fish/shrimp in there (how many) and how much gardening do you have to do?

Regards

Lee


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

xenxes said:


> (miracle grow organic potting) + a sand & gravel cap.


Can you confirm if this is what you mean: http://www.greenfingers.com/superst...33&pf_id=LS3708D&source=webgains&siteid=47683

I ask as in the UK we add 'compost' to a lot of things..... highly organified (if that is a word).



xenxes said:


> You can go low tech and have rapid growth, in place of a CO2 tank you can have fish respiration, you'll probably want some shrimp and a couple more fish in there.


I had lots of fish previously, but I had quite a bad infection from some Tetra's (stupidly did not use my usual supplying of fish and use the LFS)

Though, I have four of these bad boys and me and the little one really love them.













xenxes said:


> Solution: stem plants + floaters + fauna.


I'm not sure what you mean by Fauna. Please advise.

Regards

Lee


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

Out of curiosity, how do I manage floating plants with the pump that I have? 

I generally turn the nozel of the filter pump up towards the top of the tank so that it 'disturbs' the water and aerates it better. Would I simply turn this sideways or downwards?

I also have another fan in there, would the same be done with this too?

Regards

*edit*

This is interesting with you chaps in the US and me here in the UK. I post and then get some nice presents in the morning


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

leemonk said:


> SO, just to clarify.
> 
> I have problems because:


You have problems because you have:
1. Significantly too much light
OR
2. Not enough ferts and CO2.

Fix one of the above (maybe add some cheap root tabs, not required) and you should be good to go.


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## Seedreemer (Sep 28, 2008)

Hello and welcome. I love anubias and crypts too. I have a 75g with both plus some floaters and love the look.

I've had some pretty low-tech tanks (filterless, just water, fish, and plants and plain gravel grown in liquid rock) successfully and here's what I did and still do to get things off to a successful start.

1. Buy lots of plants at first, especially easy quick-growing varieties like guppy grass and floaters. You'll hate spending the money but it'll be worth it. You can always sell them later. Really pack them in. The guppy grass and floaters especially will take over and you'll spend months getting rid of it but it'll also starve out that algae. 

2. Use Excel or Co2 for your start-up. This gets everything growing fast so it'll outgrow that algae. I currently only dose with Excel about 3 times a week just to maintain things but always start tanks out with daily dosing.

3. Be patient. Do water changes. You may get some algae at first. Do a water change, don't panic, and it'll all balance out eventually. 

Good luck! Buy plants. Don't panic. Be patient.


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## robbowal (Mar 27, 2011)

Leemonk

Dont give up yet it just takes time and a little research.
the guys and gals on here are the best source of info out there (believe me i have looked)

For an easy pre mixed fert in the UK have a look at the link below 

http://www.plantedtanks.co.uk/pre-mixed-fertilisers-125-c.asp
just get the 500 ml dosing bottle as well 

And if you decided to go with dry dosing ferts (cheeper in the long run) you can get everything from here 

http://www.fluidsensoronline.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=146

Get a regulator from Ebay that you can adjust the output pressure they are around £40-50
it will do its job and connect directly to the FE you have (which is a DIN 477 fitting by the way) in the US they use a different one (CG 320 i think)
you can also pick up a spare FE from Ebay for around £25.
also Wholesale Tropical in Bethnal green can refill FE if you ask them. it is also an awsome shop as well.


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## zoragen (Nov 3, 2009)

Fauna meaning more shrimp & fish.

Floating plants should be fine w/ water flow - unless you have a rapid in the tank!!

If you want to do the plants in pots go ahead. 

Putting them pots makes them easier to move around & it's not like you can't plant them at a later date.

Since you don't want to mess w/ the Co2 (I'm with you on that one!):

1. put some screen over the light
2. pot up some plants
3. get more shrimp & fish (do the research to make sure whatever you get won't eat all the shrimp)
4. get some ferts


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

leemonk said:


> Thanks for all the support chaps. I am getting option....which is great.


That's what TPT is here for 



> I have problems because:
> 
> 1. I have to much light.
> 2. I have to few plants.
> ...


Everyone here gave you good and sound advice, but it's based on a few separate routes, each route has its own balance of light, fert, and CO2. Let me break it down:

(1) High-tech: high light, dose ferts regularly, dose CO2 via gas. What this means is you can grow the most demanding of plants, and grow them fast; you'll have no algae issues, but this requires high maintenance (careful balance and high upkeep of all 3: light, ferts, and co2). But let's not go this route since you want a low maintenance tank / or maintenance free.

(2) Low-tech: with low tech you can go low-light or high-light routes:

(a) Low-tech low-light: people suggested you to go low light if you wanted to keep only anubias, crypt, easy growing low light low growth plants. If you go this route, too much light means the algae will outcompete the low light plants; also since you have fewer plants, you should stock less fish, otherwise too much fish poo (nutrients) may lead to an algae bloom.

(b) Low-tech high-light: if you want a high-light low-tech tank, you'll want to plant very heavily, remember that both nutrients (fert) and CO2 have to keep up with the lighting. This means you'll have to stock adequately (but not overstock), to provide sufficient natural CO2 and fish poo (fertilizer) for the plants. You will also want high-growth stem plants, and to plant densely to support your high fish/shrimp population, and to outcompete any algae growth.

The pic of my tank is the 20g Long in my signature, it's much smaller compared to your 48g (only have space for nano tanks) but might give you some ideas on stocking or plants (maybe double what I have?).

I think you should go route 2(b) low-tech but high-light, if I had your tank this is an approximate step-by-step of I would do:

1. Leave the substrate I'm sure it's fine, buy some osmocote tablets at your local nursery / garden / retail store, insert them into your current substrate, one of those tiny balls every other square inch or so

2. Buy a healthy variety of different stem plants, plant the taller varieties in the back, shorter growth ones in middle, and carpet plants in front. Just insert the stems into the substrate; some stem species I can think of off the top of my head:

- Ludwigia sp.
- Barcopa sp.
- Rotala sp.
- Green Cabomba (grows like a weed)

Try marsilea minuta for foreground, you probably can't sustain a good HC growth given the depth & light.

Also buy / find some floating plants, water lettuce will probably be the easiest to manage for a big tank and has the highest buoyancy (red root floaters tend to have trouble remain floating in high flows), avoid the smaller ones (duckweed, salvinia minima) since they get everywhere and it's difficult to maintain/remove.

3. Crank up the light to 10-12 hour cycles, wait for a week for plants to root, buy some Seachem Excel and dose the half recommended dose if you see visible algae growth

4. Introduce more fish and shrimp slowly, few at a time. Since it's a large community tank I would make sure all the inhabitants get along, I would probably do something like:

- 10+ malaysian trumpet snails - substrate aerator / cleaner
- 10 nerites - gsa, bba algae cleaner
- 10 amano shrimp - other algae cleaner
- 20 cherry shrimp - extra fish food / waste cleaner (starter colony, they will breed fast)
- 10 otocinclus - diatom algae cleaner
- 20 pygmy corydoras species (pygmaeus, habrosus, or hastatus) - bottom cleaner
- 10 rasboras species or tetras (I like galaxy) or 10 neon tetras or both - midwater feeder
- 5-10 fancy guppies - surface feeder

Give or take.

These are all pretty shy / docile community nano fish, I prefer to have lots of smaller fish as opposed to a few larger ones, gives the tank more depth and sense of scale.

If you have larger predatory fish you'll want to wait until your plants grow out (lots of cover).

5. Clip the stems as they begin to grow taller, and plant more densely, aim to cover all of the substrate (except for your negative space in the front where you want to view the fish)

*Whew* feel like I just wrote a book :/

Don't give up!


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## kalawai2000 (Jan 15, 2011)

xenxes said:


> That's what TPT is here for
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:icon_smil


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

xenxes said:


> *Whew* feel like I just wrote a book :/



It was a bl00dy good read 

Thanks guys! Especially you Xenxes!!!

I am going away for a little while so I'll crack on with this when I am back, else my father is going to have to manage it whilst he house sits......

I think option 2B sounds good. That way I don't have to mess with anything, apart from planting a ton more.

Out of curiosity, if I plant very densely, which from what I understand will consume all of the nutrients so that the algae can't then what happens if there are not enough nutrients? Do the plants simply grow slower or does this create more problems?

I am really pleased I have posted here 

Regards

Lee


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

Hey,

Just been youtubing.....

Can anyone please tell me what this plant is and will it grow in option 2B?










Regards


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## PaulG (Oct 10, 2010)

Looks like Hygrophilia Polysperma? A must for any low light/low tech tank. Grows like crazy and is hardy as hell.

Low tech, high light is a silly option if you're already struggling. Stick with low light and you'll begin to find everything 100 times easier. In fact if you're not injecting pressurised co2 and dosing I don't know why anyone would go for high light.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

leemonk said:


> It was a bl00dy good read
> 
> Thanks guys! Especially you Xenxes!!!
> 
> ...


Plants can get nutrients from the water column through the leaves and stems, but also from the roots. This is why you have slowly dissolving osmocote tabs in the substrate, and replenish them when you see growth begin to slow or leaves turning yellow/melting, etc. 

If you're interested in specific macro/micro nutrients, this pdf is a good read -- http://www.cals.uidaho.edu/edComm/pdf/CIS/CIS1124.pdf

Fish is mainly for respiration (CO2) and macronutrients (ammonia/nitrates). The fertilizer tabs have both macro and micro. Just be sure to get one with no or low copper <0.001 content, else your shrimp will die 

Also I don't think your light is high enough to require CO2 given the depth, but if you do still have algae problems with the suggested planting density & stocking, you can always just add more floating plants to block out light.


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

Okay, back from vacation now and time to get serious 



xenxes said:


> (b) Low-tech high-light: if you want a high-light low-tech tank, you'll want to plant very heavily, remember that both nutrients (fert) and CO2 have to keep up with the lighting. This means you'll have to stock adequately (but not overstock), to provide sufficient natural CO2 and fish poo (fertilizer) for the plants. You will also want high-growth stem plants, and to plant densely to support your high fish/shrimp population, and to outcompete any algae growth.


With this route would there ever be a problem with a lack of maintenance? I've just started a new job that might see me working away for a few weekends, which is when I strictly do any maintenance on my tank.

Would large amount of growth affect light levels and cause problems for the lower level plants?



xenxes said:


> I think you should go route 2(b) low-tech but high-light, if I had your tank this is an approximate step-by-step of I would do:


I'm going to do this. At least it means I don't have to mess with anything.



xenxes said:


> 1. Leave the substrate I'm sure it's fine, buy some osmocote tablets at your local nursery / garden / retail store, insert them into your current substrate, one of those tiny balls every other square inch or so


I'm going to go with your suggestion of the compost, sand and gravel. My substrate, whilst I was away, now is half blanketed in a solid dark green mass of algae.



xenxes said:


> 2. Buy a healthy variety of different stem plants, plant the taller varieties in the back, shorter growth ones in middle, and carpet plants in front. Just insert the stems into the substrate; some stem species I can think of off the top of my head:
> 
> - Ludwigia sp.
> - Barcopa sp.
> ...


Anyone in the UK have any ideas on a good place to get these from? Half the stuff I buy from any UK place just dies (assume it's not aquatic plants).



xenxes said:


> Also buy / find some floating plants, water lettuce will probably be the easiest to manage for a big tank......


An 'aesthetic' question here: My tank is banded (black plastic) at the top and bottom of the tank with the max waterline above the upper banding,t thus, any 'floaters' that I plant will not be visable. Should I just accept a lower water line so that I can see some of these plants?



xenxes said:


> 3. Crank up the light to 10-12 hour cycles, wait for a week for plants to root, buy some Seachem Excel and dose the half recommended dose if you see visible algae growth


I assume I am doing this the day I put the plants in?



xenxes said:


> 4. Introduce more fish and shrimp slowly, few at a time. Since it's a large community tank I would make sure all the inhabitants get along, I would probably do something like:
> 
> - 10+ malaysian trumpet snails - substrate aerator / cleaner
> - 10 nerites - gsa, bba algae cleaner
> ...


Not to be to exact, but you say slowly, do you mean a few of each at a time or a catagory of each? Are there any key things I should look for before introducing more fish? Also, assuming I plant heavy, won't the plants need the fish in pretty quick?




xenxes said:


> 5. Clip the stems as they begin to grow taller, and plant more densely, aim to cover all of the substrate (except for your negative space in the front where you want to view the fish)


I found that with stem plants, when you clip then, they grow back like normal plants, ie two branches? Assuming this is the case for all plants, should I clip low, thus providing denser cover long term, or clip high, to maintain a decent level of density initially (might have got this completely wrong).



xenxes said:


> *Whew* feel like I just wrote a book :/


You did, but if it's any consolation, I have read it about 5 times 

Last question..... at least for now. 

Based on your replies here and elsewhere, What sort of level thickness should I be looking for in teh compost, sand and gravel?

I assume that it goes in that order too? Compost at bottom, interspersed with tabs, sand covering and then gravel? 

Regards

Lee


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

I personally don't feel that high light is sustainable with low tech. Others may pull it off, but I've never personally seen a tank that doesn't explode into an algae farm one day, or just has a slow (several month) decay of the plants.


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## PaulG (Oct 10, 2010)

jccaclimber said:


> I personally don't feel that high light is sustainable with low tech. Others may pull it off, but I've never personally seen a tank that doesn't explode into an algae farm one day, or just has a slow (several month) decay of the plants.


No it isn't. I challenge anyone to find me ten successful high light tanks on this forum using low tech methods. Bonus points if it's someone who has previously been struggling.


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

PaulG said:


> No it isn't. I challenge anyone to find me ten successful high light tanks on this forum using low tech methods. Bonus points if it's someone who has previously been struggling.


I'm guessing here..... but worse case scenario, I just diffuse the light if the high light becomes a problem?

Regards

ps.... My next nightmare is making a choice on the size and colour of gravel :icon_wink

Been out and about and have taken a load of pictures of stuff and I might just force you guys to assist me .

also... out of curiosity, what backgrounds do most of you have?


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## PaulG (Oct 10, 2010)

High light WILL be a problem if you're not providing co2 and regular ferts. If you're having problems and on the verge of giving up the very last thing you want to do is make everything more difficult. High light reduces your margin for error dramatically.


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

I've just found some old paperwork that came with my tank (just started moving the life forms out into my small tank whilst I start over).

My lights are as follows:

2 x 45w (895mm) 
T5-technology High-lite.

Does that change anything for me?

Regards

Lee


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## nosebleed (Apr 2, 2012)

There was a post in this forum where they talked about what is consider low, medium, and high light and someone on the forum measured it. I would suggest reading it if you haven't done so. It will help you out. Sorry I don't remember the link but I'm sure someone on here can link you it.


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

Right........ I'm planning on starting this soon.

I have a small tank with my remaining fish.... sadly, some of which, I lost in the move. So there is no rush for me.

I'm going to have to ask you chaps to offer some advice in relation to the basics again as it been a long time since I started a new tank from scratch.

I'm going to get the dirt/soil today and am opting for the UK's John Innes no.3.

I have the following questions:

1. Should I opt for a sand or gravel cap? At this stage I don't have a preference on the aesthetics, but would gladly take some recomendations on what to have and why (most important).

2. Should I fill just just enough water to cover the dirt first and allow it to do..... well, whatever it does with just a little water? I thought I read somewhere that this was a good idea. And then cap with the sand/gravel.

3. What measurement of each should I use?

4. As I am in no rush to get fish back into the tank, how should I deal with the following:
4a) Ammonia/Nitrites/Nitrates - I read somewhere that overloading the ammonia if you do NOT have fish by adding it from a bottle was a good idea (NO fish).
4b) Nutrients for the plants whilst there is no fish.

5. I plan on getting Tetra's, Mollies and Rainbow fish, therefore what other (not fish) fauna would be safe with these (thinking snails and shrimp).

6. (Mainly for UK people here) What is a good source of plants in the UK?

Once again, thank you all for your assistance.

Regards

Lee


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## Jaguar (Oct 13, 2011)

1. Sand or very fine gravel like 3M color quartz (I think that stuff is discontinued though). Dirt will float through regular sized gravel and you'll have a dirty disaster.

2. I added a bit of water to my dirt when I did it to make it a pliable mud consistency. You don't want to add too much though, or you'll be trying to dump sand on top of a mud puddle and it gets splashy and messy.

3. I like deeper substrates and did about 2 inches of dirt with 1.5 inches of sand on top in the shallowest part. More sand in the back to make a slope effect. Up to 5 inches in some parts. Deeper rooting plants like swords went back there.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

leemonk said:


> I've just found some old paperwork that came with my tank (just started moving the life forms out into my small tank whilst I start over).
> 
> My lights are as follows:
> 
> ...


The lights are 36 inches long, or what we refer to as 36 inch lights. But, our 36 inch T5HO lights are 39 watt lights, so yours are certainly high output lights (HO) or more. Two of those with good reflectors would have to be around 80 cm above the substrate in order to have low enough light to use low tech methods.


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

Thanks for the replies.

The lights are only about 450mm off the substrate!

What options do I have? I was simply planning on covering most of the waters surface with plants.

I'm worried by the conflicting information in this thread. 

I can't afford to mess this up again, both financially and interest levels. If this fails I'll just have to switch to Cichlids in a non planted tank 

Is covering the waters surface going to be sufficient, or will those plants suffering a similar fate with all the light and no nutrients?

Is the alternative to cover the lights?

Regards


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

If you use floating plants, they will soon cover the entire water surface, and the plants below them will be shaded so they can't grow. Also, those floating plants will use up all of the nutrients in the water, further harming the plants below.

You can use window screen to reduce the light intensity. That would be far better, in my opinion, than trying to use floating plants to do so. I think you really have to decide if you want to go "low tech" (non-CO2) or use CO2, EI dosing of fertilizers, and the increased tank maintenance needed to keep a high light tank from becoming an algae jungle. Then, you can follow which ever of those methods you want, and have a good chance of enjoying the tank.


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

Do you mean windowscreens like this: http://www.windowscreensuk.co.uk/categories/fly-screens/?gclid=CIuu94aotbACFUIOfAod6VK_8Q

Regards


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## leemonk (Apr 22, 2012)

Someone has suggested using reflectors in reverse or disabling one of the bulbs.

What are your thoughts on either method.

Regards


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## Surgeon (Jun 17, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> If you use floating plants, they will soon cover the entire water surface, and the plants below them will be shaded so they can't grow. Also, those floating plants will use up all of the nutrients in the water, further harming the plants below.
> 
> You can use window screen to reduce the light intensity. That would be far better, in my opinion, than trying to use floating plants to do so. I think you really have to decide if you want to go "low tech" (non-CO2) or use CO2, EI dosing of fertilizers, and the increased tank maintenance needed to keep a high light tank from becoming an algae jungle. Then, you can follow which ever of those methods you want, and have a good chance of enjoying the tank.


I agree that a shade is better but its not that hard to control floating plats such as frogbit (duckweed on the other hand is ssent by the devil!). I just pull out a handful or two a week and adjust fert doses accordingly.

Plus I really like the frogbit roots


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## outcast (Jul 4, 2007)

My opinion is to listen to hoppy and tone out the rest. He has posted some very informative guides to lighting and has experimented a lot for others benefits. Your issue is too much light, and it is a common issue for many people with stock t5ho tank set ups. The best solution is the screen, it reduces overall light to the tank without reducing light coverage. Other ways people go around this is with glass, more for topless tanks though, or through reducing the bulbs. Because all my tanks at topless i raised my lights.

Just an example 1x4 foot strip of t5ho lighting about 650 mm off the substrate was enough to growout hc with no algae. The key is to balance your lighting to your tank needs.

The solution is not buying better substrates, not investing in high tech gear, not changing your light fixture, it is totally to do with cutting the outpu of the light to your substrate. 

Your plants are low demand and dont need co2. or ferts beyond fish food. Maybe trace twice a week but that is all. I keep java fern in most of my tanks as an indicator. If it starts to turn brown, i have too much light or not enough nitrate. If daily feedings are not enough to keep up with the java fern demands, then i have too much light. 

Just a point about how i keep fish tanks. Cheap diy and simple is my approach. I have been through high tech, expensive substrates abd loys of ei dosing and i find things alwaya crash because i have kids and work that often wear me out and causes me to be lazy with the tanks from time to time. What works for me is sand, balanced lighting and root tabs. Fish waste are normally enough for my rhizome based plants. As long as i get growth witjout trimming headaches im ahead of the game

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I896 using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2


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