# HELP - I'm ready to quit



## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

I can't get my plants to grow. I've had a planted tank for a few years now. Just a 20gal high, nothing special. Started with plastic plants and gravel substrate, went to plants, switched to a dirted tank with sand cap. Had to change that because of fear of anaerobic bacteria. Now the problems start:

I have Eco complete as a substrate.

Clay and root tabs. Was using seachem and last month I tried using some osmocote plus tabs with zero change. 

I've tried a few light fixtures: Finnex planted plus, Finnex 24/7 and just a regular fluorescent fixture. All with zero change.

I've tried dosing liquid fertilizers, nothing at all and also tried dosing only liquid carbon. No noticeable change. 

All I can grow is some sort of brown algae. I'll post some pictures below but my jungle Val, rotala, crypts and lidwigia (all easy and hardy plants) not growing....

This shouldn't be difficult for a low tech setup....I had zero issues before with the other substrates and my water hasn't changed. I have soft well water. My angel fish just spawned last week so my water quality is good for the fish (which is more important to me)

If I can't get this straightened out I'm gonna quit the planted tank setup.....I don't wanna but I don't want to keep sinking money j to my one small tank. ANY help will be MUCH appreciated!!! Please let me know what other info you need.

Bump:

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Bump: This is an older picture. But an example of how my tank looks two weeks after a thorough cleaning and 50% water change. I used to be able to go a month before I would have to do a water change and I've never had to scrape my glass

Bump: This is a recent pics of all the plants. Cleaned up. Barely any hardscape....I don't want to add my dragon stone till I get my algae under control for obvious reasons


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

Are you using carbon in your filter? What time schedule are you running your lights on? How long have you been running on this configuration?


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Sorry forgot about that. Yes using seachem excel every other day. No carbon in filter, I replaced that with more ceramic bio media. The filter is a couple years old (cobalt canister filter. Rated for a 50gal I think) 

Lights are in 8 hours a day. 4 hours on, 1 hour off, 4 more hours on.

I've had the Eco complete for about 6 months if I had to guess. That's when I went from dirt to Eco complete.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I guess my questions would be:

If you didn't have a problem before, what are you doing different now?

What is the time period you are giving all these changes before deciding that they are not working? 

I too have soft well water. I don't use Excel or CO2. My photo period is 6 hours, I do weekly 50% water changes and dose the water column 3 times a week. 

I'm currently changing up my ferts in regards to what I dose as I'm not a fan of overdosing but plants will still get what they need. Substrate in my tanks varies. One has Flourite, Eco-Complete and Flora Max. Two of them have gravel with a mish-mash of Flourite, Eco-Complete and Flora Max.

I don't do anything earth-shattering or groundbreaking, it's simple stuff and my plants grow. Any changes I make, I wait for a few weeks before I decide if something is working or not. 

A low tech tank is not going to be filled with plant growth like that of a high tech tank. Patience is required, but once a low tech tank is given a change to mature, there is no reason why a person wouldn't be able to see plant growth and change. 

Too many ferts in the tank can cause algae issues if you don't have enough plant mass to absorb what the tank is being fed. Combine this with a longer photo period and it is a set up for algae issues.


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## RyRob (May 30, 2015)

How long are you giving the tank between changes (changing light fixtures, root tab switches, substrate change)? If you are shooting for low tech/light, those finnex fixtures produce quite a but of light on a 20h and may need to be raised. Changes to a lowtech/light tank happen sloooowly. Changes to parameters should be performed about 4 weeks apart to see if the change is doing actually doing anything since the typical growth rate for low tech/light is slow. We need to give the plants time to respond to the change in parameters. If you switch things up to fast and don't allow the plants time to acclimate, you will hardly ever see sustainable results. 

IME, low tech tanks are harder than high tech because the physical changes in plant matter happens at such a relatively decelerated rate that it's easy to go a month or two and not notice anything then all of a sudden all your anubias are stunted and started to melt and algae is spreading. In a high tech tank, changes in plant characteristics due to parameter changes may be observable in as little as 24 hours depending on the setup and plants. 

Considering you basically reset your tank with the substrate change, I'd figure out what your goals for the tank are and come up with a regiment for tank maintenance (dosing, water changes, light intensity, you can usually raise the light fixture to lessen the intensity, etc.) and stick to it for at least 4-6 weeks before you change anything, rembering to keep up with weekly or bi-weekly water changes. If you do need to change something, do it gradually. For example, if you want your current photopeeiod to be an hour longer, do it over 15 minute incriments a week for 4 weeks (15x4=60 minutes) instead of just leaving it on the extra hour to start. The same can be said for increasing/decreasing fertilizer or co2. Slower changes in parameters yield better results in most any aquarium.

Takashi Amano and Tom Barr preach water changes 2-3 times a week, if not daily, for new setups and tanks with issues or whenever in doubt about parameters and their tanks are some of the best out there.


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## Mikevwall (Jul 27, 2015)

get over your fear of anaerobic bacteria, dirt and cap it.


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I would cut out the ferts for now keep up with the excel. How much O+ did you use? I use O+ tabs in my 75 and put a few in my carpet and one next to each root feeder. I would also increase the plant mass. Top those L. Repens and replant, this will help soak up nutrients. What light fixture are you currently using?


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

I was giving a couple weeks in between changing lights or fertilizers. I've been struggling with this lack of growth for a few months now. 

Only thing I changed during the rebuild is the substrate. I have some frog it floaters to help absorb any over dosing I'm doing, but as you see the tank has a decent number of plants. 

As far as lighting goes, I had the planted plus with dirt and zero algae problems for the whole life of that tank. Beginning to tear down. My LFS said to try more light which is when I added the extra fluorescent lights. Figures maybe my LED's weren't penetrating deep enough to the crypts but I've taken that flouro light off as it made algae problem worse. I'll try raising the light tomorrow when I do another major cleaning. Thanks for the info and thoughts my friends

I'm just trying to brainstorm with you all to make sure im not missing anything! I'm getting very frustrated.

Bump:


Mikevwall said:


> get over your fear of anaerobic bacteria, dirt and cap it.


My fish are more important to me than my plants. I saw some bubbles come up from the substrate and that got me very worried. What do you cap with?


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## The Big Buddha (Jul 30, 2012)

Soft well water.... Is it naturally soft or are you getting your aquarium water from water that has passed through a softner?

.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

thedood said:


> I would cut out the ferts for now keep up with the excel. How much O+ did you use? I use O+ tabs in my 75 and put a few in my carpet and one next to each root feeder. I would also increase the plant mass. Top those L. Repens and replant, this will help soak up nutrients. What light fixture are you currently using?


Okay I'll do a 50% water change tomorrow. Raise the Finnex planted+ up on its mounts. Should I cut all the leaves that have algae off? Basically the whole bottom is covered with plants and I have frog it floaters. That should be enough to suck up any extra ferts right? I put in 4 osmocote tabs all under a bulk of plants. I have mostly root feeders aside from the rotala and repens. 

I also don't over feed my fish. They eat everything I put in there

Bump:


The Big Buddha said:


> Soft well water.... Is it naturally soft or are you getting your aquarium water from water that has passed through a softner?
> 
> .


Right from the faucet 100% natural. Goes through a radon treatment tank but that's all. I add conditioner because I'm paranoid and I know it won't hurt


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Bacter 100 ? Aquatic Garden

Should I add something like this to the substrate? or any other recommendations? this substrate is only about 6 months old so maybe it still needs help? This 'bacter 100' is supposed to help with organic decomposition and 'jump start' the substrate.....so I might be a little late with this. Just looking for ideas to help make the substrate and roots of my plants healthier. I can put some in capsules to get it in the substrate same as the osmocote tabs


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

jonnyboy said:


> Bacter 100 ? Aquatic Garden
> 
> Should I add something like this to the substrate? or any other recommendations? this substrate is only about 6 months old so maybe it still needs help? This 'bacter 100' is supposed to help with organic decomposition and 'jump start' the substrate.....so I might be a little late with this. Just looking for ideas to help make the substrate and roots of my plants healthier. I can put some in capsules to get it in the substrate same as the osmocote tabs


You can if you want to, but it isn't necessary. I think it was Tom that talked about Bacter 100 being nothing more than dead bacteria. I laughed when I read it, but also agreed.

If you're going to use root tabs, your substrate will be fine. Eco-Complete grabs and stores nutrients, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. The main thing is being consistent as the tank overall will benefit from it.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Just remember that this hobby requires a ton of patience. Plants don't explode over night and at times can take quite a while to acclimate to your system. With everything is read so far it sounds like your tank has been like a roller coaster with all its changes. The tank needs time to balance out and a lot of this will rely on you being consistent with everything you do to the tank.


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## Savetheplants (May 24, 2016)

I once heard that 20% of people get out of the aquarium hobby every year. It's probably a higher percentage for us planted tank people. You can see aquariums being sold at garage sales every weekend. I think your tank is nice for what it is worth. May I suggest just having nothing but Java Moss, Java Fern, Anubias and Bolbitis Heudelotii tied to your driftwood? I put Wisteria in my tank and it roots in coarse ornamental gravel.

I like RyRob's suggestion about "coming up with a regiment for tank maintenance." A regiment would make water changes a snap. You could just call for some volunteers to form a bucket brigade right out your door to your yard to water the trees. Maybe position some artillery to fend off your algae. Just teasing RyRob, I know you meant regime instead of regiment.

You're going to have some pampered fish after your planted tank experience. All this plant stuff increases your awareness of water quality and makes you pay attention to things. Don't worry, you will still be able to grow algae when the plants are gone.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the helpful info and tips....and reminders. I need to be more patient with my changes. I'm gonna cut off liquid ferts aside from the excel. Weekly water changes till I get this sorted. My Finnex planted+ will be raised a little more.

One more question....I don't have a cleanup crew. Any suggestions for a 20 high? I used to have oto cats and I don't know if they helped. I'm afraid to get shrimp because of the angel fish and my lack of hiding spots right now. I have a bunch of dragon stone that's gonna fill up the tank but not till after I get my algae under control. I don't like plecos and a farlowella is too big. Will full grown amano shrimp be okay with the Angels? Two angels. They get along with the neon tetras so maybe amanos will be okay?

Bump:


Savetheplants said:


> I once heard that 20% of people get out of the aquarium hobby every year. It's probably a higher percentage for us planted tank people. You can see aquariums being sold at garage sales every weekend. I think your tank is nice for what it is worth. May I suggest just having nothing but Java Moss, Java Fern, Anubias and Bolbitis Heudelotii tied to your driftwood? I put Wisteria in my tank and it roots in coarse ornamental gravel.
> 
> I like RyRob's suggestion about "coming up with a regiment for tank maintenance." A regiment would make water changes a snap. You could just call for some volunteers to form a bucket brigade right out your door to your yard to water the trees. Maybe position some artillery to fend off your algae. Just teasing RyRob, I know you meant regime instead of regiment.
> 
> You're going to have some pampered fish after your planted tank experience. All this plant stuff increases your awareness of water quality and makes you pay attention to things. Don't worry, you will still be able to grow algae when the plants are gone.


I don't like Java moss or ferns lol! Trident ferns are badass but I can't find any. All the plants I have right now are very easy and hardy plants and mostly heavy root feeders. I think my plant selection is good it's my lack of stability and probably lights are too powerful


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## thedood (May 30, 2015)

I think this is a good plan!! I like the oto cats. They do a great job in my tank, you just wont seem them much in my experience as they hide a lot around other fish.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

thedood said:


> I think this is a good plan!! I like the oto cats. They do a great job in my tank, you just wont seem them much in my experience as they hide a lot around other fish.


I thought they were cool when I had them a while back. Had 4 total for a while and they slowly disappeared or I found em dead  maybe I can pick some up this week! The plants have plenty of algae on em right now lol and I'll keep scraping the glass. 

I also have an old UV sterilizer. Thinking about setting that up too to help get algae under control


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

jonnyboy said:


> I thought they were cool when I had them a while back. Had 4 total for a while and they slowly disappeared or I found em dead  maybe I can pick some up this week! The plants have plenty of algae on em right now lol and I'll keep scraping the glass.
> 
> I also have an old UV sterilizer. Thinking about setting that up too to help get algae under control


What algae are you trying to control with the UV? If it's the brown algae in the pic you posted then the Otos should take care of that. Don't be discouraged by the Otos turning up dead when you first get them. The majority of them are wild caught and just don't take the transition well. They like to be in groups, so get a few. Also, ramshorn snail are pretty good.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Nlewis said:


> What algae are you trying to control with the UV? If it's the brown algae in the pic you posted then the Otos should take care of that. Don't be discouraged by the Otos turning up dead when you first get them. The majority of them are wild caught and just don't take the transition well. They like to be in groups, so get a few. Also, ramshorn snail are pretty good.


Awesome thank you! I could get snails....my 3.5 year old zebra loache just died (jumped out of tank) so maybe some nice looking snails! I've been so used to avoiding snails because of him that the thought never crossed my mind.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

I think about getting a new hobby often. But no other hobby that I know of combines art and science like plants and fish in a glass cage. There is always something new. You can tear it down and do it over and over again with different plants, lights, fish, etc. I don't mind when my tanks fail. I just rip it up and start over again and research ways to keep the next tank longer before it falls to ruin. Each time I've learned a little more and my tanks stay healthy a little longer. But no world, big or small, lasts forever. 

Hating the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics right now.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> I can't get my plants to grow. All I can grow is some sort of brown algae.
> 
> This is an older picture. But an example of how my tank looks two weeks after a thorough cleaning and 50% water change.


Brown algae is not bad algae. It is common in a new tank. Don't worry about it. I think you are changing out too much water. I generally do 1/3. 

Another fert I have found to help plants to acclimate is Brightwell aquatic Florinaxis. You can find it for a decent price on evilbay. It has kelp in which is very beneficial for plants.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> Brown algae is not bad algae. It is common in a new tank. Don't worry about it. I think you are changing out too much water. I generally do 1/3.
> 
> Another fert I have found to help plants to acclimate is Brightwell aquatic Florinaxis. You can find it for a decent price on evilbay. It has kelp in which is very beneficial for plants.


I never thought of helping the plants acclimate. I always just planted them and cut off dying leaves. Since I was going to try cutting off all liquid ferts except excel should I replace it with this? It says it can replace the excel and do much more


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> . Since I was going to try cutting off all liquid ferts except excel should I replace it with this? It says it can replace the excel and do much more


Since you have plants that are sensitive to excel I think they would do better with just FlorinAxis. Perhaps 5ml daily for 3 months (aprox 500ml). Then when you run out you could replace it with Liquid Iodine. Plus dose excel. 

Excel alternative Metricide or Cidex. Not cidex odt. Excel has 1.5% Glut. A quart is approx $25 on Ebay. At dealmed.com 1 gallon $18.20. shipping $9.99 

Solution formula
glut = (1.5 x container)/ cidex glut% 
glut = (1.5% * 100ml)/2.5%.
500ml bottle = 300ml of 2.5%(Metricide 28) + 200ml of water

What light fixture do you have now? Perhaps having a siesta period would help. For Diane Walstad wrote in her book that a siesta period helps increase the natural Co2. Perhaps something like 4hrs on/ 4hrs off/ 4hrs on.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> Since you have plants that are sensitive to excel I think they would do better with just FlorinAxis. Perhaps 5ml daily for 3 months (aprox 500ml). Then when you run out you could replace it with Liquid Iodine. Plus dose excel.
> 
> Excel alternative Metricide or Cidex. Not cidex odt. Excel has 1.5% Glut. A quart is approx $25 on Ebay. At dealmed.com 1 gallon $18.20. shipping $9.99
> 
> ...


I like the idea of switching. Why not just stick to the florinaxis? I can buy it for $17.50 per 500ml on Amazon with free shipping. I'm gonna recommend my LFS stock it as well as it seems a great replacement for excel. 

I'm running a finnex planted+ 4" above the water right now. I didn't have time to do research last night after work. I want to figure out PAR readings on this fixture and see how high I should be raising it exactly. I have a 1hr siesta splitting my 8hrs of lights on for that exact reason. That was one of the first things I learned from you all.

Thanks for the help again!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> I like the idea of switching. Why not just stick to the florinaxis? I can buy it for $17.50 per 500ml on Amazon with free shipping. I'm gonna recommend my LFS stock it as well as it seems a great replacement for excel.
> 
> I'm running a finnex planted+ 4" above the water right now. I didn't have time to do research last night after work. I want to figure out PAR readings on this fixture and see how high I should be raising it exactly. I have a 1hr siesta splitting my 8hrs of lights on for that exact reason. That was one of the first things I learned from you all.
> 
> Thanks for the help again!


FlorinAxis is cheaper on evilbay. Excel has more Co2 in it. Cidex cheaper if you are staying with excel. 

I am dosing Cidex solution and mineral for Co2. Will be injecting Co2 soon. For I have gotten hooked on plants that need Co2 injected.

My 1st tank I lost all of my plants to BBA. I was going quit but I got a tank full of plants free with no shipping cost from a member. So I know how you feel. This is an expensive hobby and is additive. Welcome to the addition. If you weren't addicted you would not have asked for help.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

I know one of the pics is older. I see the filter outlet in 2 different positions. Kind of a deep tank. I'm wondering if you have good circulation throughout the tank. Seems like you might have some dead spots and dead corners. Seems like everything for good growth has been covered except circulation.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Kubla said:


> I know one of the pics is older. I see the filter outlet in 2 different positions. Kind of a deep tank. I'm wondering if you have good circulation throughout the tank. Seems like you might have some dead spots and dead corners. Seems like everything for good growth has been covered except circulation.


Oh, yes. On the right side possibly a dead spot.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> FlorinAxis is cheaper on evilbay. Excel has more Co2 in it. Cidex cheaper if you are staying with excel.
> 
> I am dosing Cidex solution and mineral for Co2. Will be injecting Co2 soon. For I have gotten hooked on plants that need Co2 injected.
> 
> My 1st tank I lost all of my plants to BBA. I was going quit but I got a tank full of plants free with no shipping cost from a member. So I know how you feel. This is an expensive hobby and is additive. Welcome to the addition. If you weren't addicted you would not have asked for help.


I have some Florinaxis coming in soon. Free shipping on AmazonPrime. I'll see how it goes. What's your mineral solution? Cidex for Co2 and something else or am I misunderstanding that? I'm addicted for sure and would actually love to build my next tank. But I can't justify doing that till I get this straightened out.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Kubla said:


> I know one of the pics is older. I see the filter outlet in 2 different positions. Kind of a deep tank. I'm wondering if you have good circulation throughout the tank. Seems like you might have some dead spots and dead corners. Seems like everything for good growth has been covered except circulation.


I needed more surface agitation. Changed that right after the dirty pic when I was cleaning the tank. It creates decent flow throughout the tank. Not everything is moving around like crazy but it's decent and water crystal clear.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> What's your mineral solution? Cidex for Co2 and something else or am I misunderstanding that?


Seltzer water (Soda water) without flavor from Kroger or any store is carbonated water. Plus I dilute Cidex to = Seachem Excel. My dosing is a hit and miss for I don't like to measure things. I just dose using a pipette. I usually just have $1 dollar fish in high tech tank. Low tech tank with rainbows for ferts I only dose liquid iodine


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> Seltzer water (Soda water) without flavor from Kroger or any store is carbonated water. Plus I dilute Cidex to = Seachem Excel. My dosing is a hit and miss for I don't like to measure things. I just dose using a pipette. I usually just have $1 dollar fish in high tech tank. Low tech tank with rainbows for ferts I only dose liquid iodine


Seltzer water haha! That's funny. I've looked into pressurized Co2 as well and it's expensive to get into. I'd honestly be more comfortable just paying extra for something premixed. I get nervous playing with metricide 'cleaners' in my tank lol!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> Seltzer water haha! That's funny. I've looked into pressurized Co2 as well and it's expensive to get into. I'd honestly be more comfortable just paying extra for something premixed. I get nervous playing with metricide 'cleaners' in my tank lol!


Excel has 1.5% glutaraldehyde. Metricide28 has 2.5% glutaraldehyde. Metricide14
has 2% glutaraldehyde.

Excel alternative is Metricide or Cidex. Not cidex odt. A quart is approx $25 on EvilEbay. At dealmed.com 1 gallon $18.20. shipping $9.99 

Solution is:
glut = (1.5 x container)/ cidex glut% 
glut = (1.5% * 100ml)/2.5%.
500ml bottle = 300ml of 2.5%(Metricide 28) + 200ml of water

I will be doing pressurized Co2 soon. Most Co2 systems are around $200. Mine is less. It is a combination of parts I had for a paintball Co2 flow regulator and a pressure regulator which cost $60.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> Excel alternative is Metricide or Cidex. Not cidex odt. A quart is approx $25 on EvilEbay. At dealmed.com 1 gallon $18.20. shipping $9.99
> 
> I will be doing pressurized Co2 soon. Most Co2 systems are around $200. Mine is less. It is a combination of parts I had for a paintball Co2 flow regulator and a pressure regulator which cost $60.


I could get metricide28 for $24 on Amazon free shipping. But I won't be looking into this for a while. This solution is copied on my phone if I ever wanna try thank you. 

You can get a regulator / solenoid for around $90 from aquatek. I don't know much about the company but maybe a good starter? Works with paintball tanks and adapters can be bought if you get a larger Co2 tank. I've shopped around a little bit. I was planning a large tank build before I had to buy a new car lol! Damn priorities....


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy;9358146
You can get a regulator / solenoid for around $90 from aquatek. [/QUOTE said:


> I don't like the aquatek. It has a lot of bad reviews. The needle valve looks like a cheap 1 I got with a DIY citric Co2 setup.
> 
> Are you going to put a screen light diffuser on top to decrease the light?


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> I don't like the aquatek. It has a lot of bad reviews. The needle valve looks like a cheap 1 I got with a DIY citric Co2 setup.
> 
> Are you going to put a screen light diffuser on top to decrease the light?


Good to know. There's usually a reason something is less expensive....

No I've raised the lights a couple inches for now. I thought they would be good where it was originally but I was wrong. I Haven't had a chance to do a water change yet, but hopefully tonight, and the Florinaxis comes in today to give me more motivation.


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## Rusticdr (Apr 5, 2016)

Jonnyboy i was just gonna start a thread along similar lines thinking 'why only me' before i saw this thread. I have a 4G (yes nano) tank with fern, crypts, dwarf sag and bacopa aus. Unfortunately i have the exact same problems that u have been facing. My substrate is contro (similar to ADA). I have 8 serpae. I do biweekly 30% water changes, daily excel with iron, pot, flourish and npk distrubed thru different days of the week. I have a 7 watts LED (5 hrs - 5 hrs nap- 2 hrs). I check the water parameters.. nitrates 10 ppm, ammonia 0.25 and pH 7.2. i have been running this setup for 4 months now. plants are static with brown algae all over them and also on the glass. keep scraping them off and they just keep coming. Increased the light to 9 watts and boom.. i got green thread algae as a compliment. twice i tried that both times the same result.. reason for increasing light was that when i planted bacopa the top leaves looked fine but almost all the plants the bottom leaves and stem wud melt away and the plants wud take off. so anyway.. now i just stopped intervening and doing what just the water changes, algae scraping and reduced the daily doses of fert. Funny thing s that the plants dont die.. but they dont grow either. I have ordered for a 90G and am going full high tech on that and turning this one into a RC shrimp tank. atleast that way i can stop the scraping. sorry if i have not provided a soln.. its just to let u know that u r not alone out there. just stay cool. we may yet find the missing link.


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## akwi (Aug 4, 2014)

I have gone through this for years. Impatience was always my biggest problem. 

I would get frustrated and switch around lights.... I went from having a light duty LED all the way to having a 6 T5 fixture... Mounted from 2 feet off the tank to inches from the water. I could never dial it in. One second major growth from one species and the others dying.... Lower light intensity and now all species die... Raise intensity and then species grow but algae couldn't be evaded. 

I also spent months building rex Griggs reactors of all sizes... New ceramic diffusers... Glass diffusers... Running it through a power head. I was convinced from Barrs CO2 lectures that I was not having adequate co2. In the end I believe I was pushing co2 so hard it was almost working against me... Raising fert requirements too high and creating imbalances. 

I played with Fert regimes out the wazoo for years too. Major heavy dosing to almost starving plants, and every place in between. 

Even now after having planted aquariums, I still haven't figured it all out. But I have learned that keeping it simple and not over complicating things will get best results. And the biggest word, patience. Making multiple factors changes in a week or two is the worst thing you can do. 

I would recommend same as the others... Water changes...Raise your light higher and go to a lower duration and stick with it. Set your excel to where your calculations show it should be and leave it. Start with ferts very low dose. Create your baseline of parameters and go from there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

I've only skimmed this thread so you may have already received all the advice you need, but I'll tell my story anyway...
My 60g was well established (years) with plastic decor. I had switched to silica (pool filter) sand substrate years ago simply because it was easier since detritus didn't get down under and require excessive gravel vacuuming. I had toyed with the idea of living plants, but knew that the two 15 watt florescent lights that came with the tank wouldn't support them - especially with a 24" depth.
I saw an add for the Finnex Planted+ 24/7 and I really liked the idea of the natural sunrise to sunset feature (with plants). I added some more sand, removed all the plastic (well except for the hollow log) and planted after installing the light. 
_(I opted to stick with the sand. I've been an organic gardener for over 30 years and appreciate rich soil, but in a fish tank any soil (or commercial substrate) water soluble nutrients plants could use would be washed away with water changes and any remaining value would be used by plants fairly quickly, leaving an inert material anyway.)_ 
With the finnex in 24/7 mode, I initially got green (dust) algae city! A lack of balance...bright light and a lot of nutrients not yet used by new plants. Poking around in here, I opted to fashion some fiberglass window screen to fit on the glass canape under the light to act as a shade cloth. During a water change, I scrubbed all the algae I could to remove. After a couple of days with the reduced light the algae seemed under control and the dwarf sag was turning yellow so I removed the screen. Although I had read a lot of advice on the forum about stopping dosing to reduce nutrients, some research suggested the opposite. Since plants, once established will out compete algae for nutrients, you want to keep dosing up so plants can take hold. It makes sense when you think about it as it's all about balance.
I am using Seachem Fresh Trace, Flourish Comprehensive and Flourish Root Tabs.
I had been using Fresh Trace (for the fish) and didn't see a need to switch to Flourish Trace (I believe they are similar products). I think the root tabs are necessary for rooted plants in an inert substrate. I'm using minimal amounts of the Fresh Trace and Flourish Comp - enough o keep stem plants happy. I'm hoping the organics will be the primary food source.
The real key is *patience*. This is like watching grass grow ... you really can't rush it. Any change takes many days or weeks to produce a result and shotgun methods may produce positive results, but you may never know what really did the trick.
So don't expect quick growth.
I did notice from the photo that your substrate looks like a very coarse material. I think a fine gravel or sand is better for rooted plants, but that's just my opinion.

Good luck and hang in there ... 'good things come to those that wait.'


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

> Although I had read a lot of advice on the forum about stopping dosing to reduce nutrients, some research suggested the opposite. Since plants, *once established* will out compete algae for nutrients, you want to keep dosing up so plants can take hold. It makes sense when you think about it as it's all about balance


Yes, once plants are established they need to be fed. There is no debate about this. 

The problem is when people set up a new tank or reset a tank by completely swapping out the substrate, add plants, then dump in a massive amounts of ferts in the tank. There is where the problem lies. The plants need to adjust which doesn't happen overnight. The bacteria that breaks down the fish poop, food, ferts, ect... need time to grow. 

If plants are not established and there is not enough bacteria to break down what is in the tank, the massive amount of ferts becomes food for algae. 

Taking issues such as this out of context is popular in this hobby, but even tanks that have plants that are packed in, wall to wall still have to go through the same process as a tank with a few plants. 

If there is anybody around that can set up a tank and have instant mature substrate beds with brand new substrate with plants that instantly mature along with said substrate, I'd love to know what the secret is.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

@Smooch - the point of the research I was referencing was that we need to fertilize the newly planted tank so the plants can grow and establish. The article suggested that rather than starving the plants of nutrients, light reduction (along with manual efforts) in intensity or duration might be better to beat the algae.
Exceptions to every rule.
_In my case the tank and the substrate were well established (for years) before the new light and plants were added._


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

AbbeysDad said:


> @Smooch - the point of the research I was referencing was that we need to fertilize the newly planted tank so the plants can grow and establish. The article suggested that rather than starving the plants of nutrients, light reduction (along with manual efforts) in intensity or duration might be better to beat the algae.
> Exceptions to every rule.
> _In my case the tank and the substrate were well established (for years) before the new light and plants were added._


Again, context. Nobody suggests starving plants. However, feeding a new tank the same as one that has been fully established is going to have issues. 

The funny thing about the internet is that one can find a agreeing opinion about anything. Sometimes using some common sense is better than looking for a pigeon hole...


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Smooch said:


> If there is anybody around that can set up a tank and have instant mature substrate beds with brand new substrate with plants that instantly mature along with said substrate, I'd love to know what the secret is.


A few have here Seems that the secret is that they have well water and do a lot of water changes.

Bump:


AbbeysDad said:


> @Smooch - the point of the research I was referencing was that we need to fertilize the newly planted tank so the plants can grow and establish.


I have found dosing with iodine helps the plants get established. I usually just squirt full dropper 1x daily for the 1st week. Worked great for some plants that melted due to an experiment which went bad and melted my crypts.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Hilde said:


> A few have here Seems that the secret is that they have well water and do a lot of water changes.
> 
> .


I didn't see any mention of well water or water changes. I have well water and do water changes. Sadly the only possible 'advantage' I may have is my water is soft versus those that deal with liquid rock.

Back to the topic of starving plants...

There is a simple way to prove if plants in a tank are being overfed or not. Get out the test kits and check. If what the tank is being dosed is not being consumed, plants are being overfed. 

A person can add more plant mass to soak up what at the point is excess, cut back on the ferts, or continue dosing as usual and take the wait and see approach. 

A tank that is overstocked with 50ppm nitrate readings on a regular basis is not going to have plants dying because the person didn't dose nitrates 6-7 days a week. It could very well be deficient in other things, but not nitrates. 

I'm giving this issue far more head space than it deserves.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Here is the link to the whole thread. Well water mentioned at post 6 . At post 9 jeffkrol says, "There are a few things to consider , like the pH of your water and ones "commitment" to routine and frequent.
Ammonia and nitrite will always build..for awhile. Cheap enough to add PRIME every other day and monitor amm/nitrites till they disappear"


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Hilde said:


> A few have here Seems that the secret is that they have well water and do a lot of water changes.
> 
> Bump:
> I have found dosing with iodine helps the plants get established. I usually just squirt full dropper 1x daily for the 1st week. Worked great for some plants that melted due to an experiment which went bad and melted my crypts.


That's the first time I've ever heard of that. Is there any effect on the biofilter?

Sent from my Z813 using Tapatalk


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Monrankim said:


> That's the first time I've ever heard of that. Is there any effect on the biofilter?


No!

I decided to start using the iodine after I ran out of Brightwell Aquatics FlorinAxis. For I read that it has kelp. Kelp provides Iodine. I happened to have a bottle of it. I use this particular bottle of iodine.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Hilde said:


> No!
> 
> I decided to start using the iodine after I ran out of Brightwell Aquatics FlorinAxis. For I read that it has kelp. Kelp provides Iodine. I happened to have a bottle of it. I use this particular bottle of iodine.


I am always impressed with resourcefulness in this hobby. Like buying glutaraldehyde and diluting it yourself without the alkaline agent instead of buying Excel or DIY root tabs, substrate, lighting ect... I'm not saying that our hobby isn't worth spending money on or that it's all about being cheap, it's worth the money. I just like the fact that this hobby seems to attract intelligent people who learn what is actually happening in their tanks and don't necessarily need to have our tank needs packaged into a bite size product, unless we choose so for our convenience. Kudos

I am relatively new to the hobby and I am definitely still learning (probably always will be). Is the iodine something you only add in the beginning? 

Sent from my Z813 using Tapatalk


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Monrankim said:


> I just like the fact that this hobby seems to attract intelligent people who learn what is actually happening in their tanks and don't necessarily need to have our tank needs packaged into a bite size product, unless we choose so for our convenience. Kudos
> 
> I am relatively new to the hobby and I am definitely still learning (probably always will be). Is the iodine something you only add in the beginning?


I am still learning too. Sometimes I do experiments that go bad. Latest experiment was to lower the ph. For read that plants grow better with ph 6.8. The result was all Tetra died and plants melted even though I changed the water.

Started up 10g with melted plants, mostly crypts. Dosed Iodine, Seachem equilbrium, KNO3 (Spectricide stump remover), Sodium bicarb. (baking soda), Soda water, Seltzer water, and Excel solution. Used soda water for it contains Potassium sulfate. Used Seltzer water for it has carbon and boost the Excel solution. Result is majority of the plants are coming back. My next project is paintball Co2 system for 10g. When the plants are fully grown I will be moving them to a 29g tank. Hopefully the move won't kill the plants.

I have learned that some plants must have Co2 injected. Excel can not replace Co2 injected for some plants.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I just read thru your thread. Caught my eye because of the beautiful angels (I want angelfish someday too) I would caution against getting otocinclus- I have twice read stories now about a full-grown angel trying to eat an oto. The oto's spines got stuck in the angel's throat- not good for either of them. I am thinking when it's time for me to add angelfish I will have to rehome my oto if he's still around.

How's your tank doing now? I don't have any suggestions except to keep careful track of what changes you make, and then look at what happens a week or two _after_ each change. My tank was in an awful state for nearly a year while I kept trying different things. I couldn't figure it out until I sat down with a calendar and drew a chart lining up my alterations with things going worse/better- in my case, it was about a two-week lag.

If you have tried adding more ferts and increasing light and the situation is getting worse, I'd go the other way and try _less_ light. That was key for me. Sometimes the plant behavior can tell you about your light level- if your crypts have long petioles and hold the leaves upright, the light is low for them. If they have short petioles or lie broad and flat on the substrate, the light is high. (Mine are kind of in-between. I was aiming for low light/low tech but the plant tells me the light intensity is higher than I thought, probably medium. When I moved a crypt into my other tank it got leggy- because that one really does have low light).

And if you don't mind snails, get some malaysian trumpet snails. They dig around in the substrate and help prevent gas pockets.


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

sorry fellas, life got a little hectic here. Haven't had a chance to give a good read through all the new comments. But the tank is doing better as far as algae goes. I got 4 snails and they destroyed the algae. I haven't scraped the glass for a couple months now. It's not perfectly clean, but good enough for me right now. Been keeping up with water changes and I've cut back the ferts to using liquid Co2 every other day and the florinaxis once a week. So very little algae now, but barely any plant growth. The plants look slightly healthier but definitely not thriving. After all this, I've decided to build a cichlid tank and basically get out of the planted tanks for a while. So this tank will still get attention but I'm not going to be sinking more money into it. I'll keep playing with it and try to get the plant growth figured out. I can't get my Finnex planted+ any closer to the water. I have a second one, but after what you all shared with me I think I might have better results with increasing how long my lights are on before adding more lights?

thanks as usual my friends!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> I've cut back the ferts to using liquid Co2 every other day and the florinaxis once a week.


Why you are dose 2 Co2 additives?


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## jonnyboy (Mar 13, 2013)

Hilde said:


> Why you are dose 2 Co2 additives?


Because I use the florinaxis once a week. The plants seemed to respond a little better when I dosed Co2 every other day compared to just the florinaxis once a week.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jonnyboy said:


> Because I use the florinaxis once a week. The plants seemed to respond a little better when I dosed Co2 every other day compared to just the florinaxis once a week.


I found a cheap alternative to florinaxis is Liquid kelp


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## carnationcrab (Sep 18, 2016)

Mikevwall said:


> get over your fear of anaerobic bacteria, dirt and cap it.


Dirting my tank was the most rewarding planted tank experience I have ever had.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Mikevwall said:


> get over your fear of anaerobic bacteria, dirt and cap it.


I agree. I have noticed that with Coir (Coconut Bark) under the substrate I had less black areas, which could have been anaerobic bacteria starting up. Planting heavily and poking the dirt should prevent it from happening.


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