# Ok. So what the heck is this stuff.. Pic n details



## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Ok so I've been battling this for a while now with no improvements for a long time. Not sure what this stuff is or how to go about getting rid it. What I've done recently is raised the light up a more inches and added some algae fix stuff and it seems to at least stopped it from growing but not from going away. Still getting the green on the glass between the weekly water changes, seems to be in the same spot most the time. Here's the particulars:

33 gal
2217 filter
Ecocomplete
Prssurized C02 (it's inconsistent but I'm getting a new dual stage next week)
EI Dose dry ferts according to my tank size reccomendations
T5HO 2x24watt light raised about 20inch or so above substrate, on 8hrs
PH 6.6-6.8
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10-20ppm
Phostphate 10ppm

* Tested KH and GH and both turned the appropriate color after about 19 drops which seemed to read 350ish but I don't know if I did it correctly since I've never done it before.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as always, tired of my tank looking like the bottom of a porta-potty.

If any other information would help please let me know.


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## Pen3 (Jan 2, 2007)

Cant see a thing. Get your self a dslr or something, but first 2 pics look like diatom. Is it brown? And you nitrate/phos is twice as high. Your kh/gh is also insane. My GH is 3-5 and KH is 4-6.

Which dual stage reg are you getting? They are quite pricey especially if you want all stainless 316 and I havnt seen a brass one around here at all.


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## Ladayen (Feb 19, 2012)

It is interesting that your water is so hard yet it's acidic. Maybe try testing again and see if you get the same results. Nothing necessarily wrong with that.. just unusual.

As Pen3 pointed out I suspect your Nitrates and Phosphates are feeding the diatoms algae. Do you have much experience with planted tanks?


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

how long you had this tank setup??


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

That.. Is awful. I don't see diatoms however.. It almost looks like BBA that has collected dirt/waste to clump up into an ugly mass of waste..

In all honestly, I'd tear the tank down, bleach what I can, toss what I can't, and start over.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

your Phosphate are very high, your PH reading sounds inaccurate, KH is quite high, GH is also high, but i would worry more about the KH.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Hmm that's discouraging?
The tank has been set up since January and the new regulator is being make by maknwar from this site. I've had tanks with Plants in the past but this is my first high tech set up and it's been a. While period.

Is there anything I can do here to get some if these levels down and get this corrected? I seriously do not want to tear this whole thing down I don't have the heart with all the work I've put into it. If I tear it down it's not going back up.

The algae or whatever that is around the wood and plants is like blackish greyish clumpy stuff. It sticks to the wood and seems to collect at the base if the plants. Also it gathers in little movable clumps on the bottom of the tank.

Please any help appreciated and obviously needed.


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## touch of sky (Nov 1, 2011)

This is what I did to combat my problems with algae. These are just my suggestions, and others may disagree, but here goes:
I would do a 50% wc and remove as much of the algae as I could manually. Then I would reduce the amount of fertilization. I understand that many people have great success with EI, but I seemed to have thread algae problems until I reduced my dosing. I mixed up a solution that would give me a 1/2 dose of EI. I tried that for a few weeks, and then actually went down to a 1/4 dose of EI. I also used Excel in a syringe and squirted a daily dose on any algae that was left. For two weeks, you can use a double dose of Excel if necessary. After about a month of this routine, all algae disappeared, and plant growth remained good. I don't have to do the 50% wc's weekly using this routine (which I was doing when following EI) and do a 30% wc every 10 days, instead. 

After you get your algae problems under control, you can experiment a bit with your dosing and see what level of fertilization works for you. You can easily increase the fertilization for two weeks and see how your plants react and if the algae comes back. If it does, then drop it a bit. It is all trial and error to see what works in your tank, with your water, fish load, lighting. etc. 

I think getting your CO2 sorted out will also help. 

Try not to get discouraged. With a little experimentation, I think everything will work out.


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## Pen3 (Jan 2, 2007)

Quickest is do complete wc and mix with RO. Either your test are wrong or your city water is horrible.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I will test my city water straight from the tap then I guess. I thought you wanted nitrates in a planted tank?

Any good reasonably priced ro unit or gadget to get ro water out there?


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

touch of sky said:


> This is what I did to combat my problems with algae. These are just my suggestions, and others may disagree, but here goes:
> I would do a 50% wc and remove as much of the algae as I could manually. Then I would reduce the amount of fertilization. I understand that many people have great success with EI, but I seemed to have thread algae problems until I reduced my dosing. I mixed up a solution that would give me a 1/2 dose of EI. I tried that for a few weeks, and then actually went down to a 1/4 dose of EI. I also used Excel in a syringe and squirted a daily dose on any algae that was left. For two weeks, you can use a double dose of Excel if necessary. After about a month of this routine, all algae disappeared, and plant growth remained good. I don't have to do the 50% wc's weekly using this routine (which I was doing when following EI) and do a 30% wc every 10 days, instead.
> 
> After you get your algae problems under control, you can experiment a bit with your dosing and see what level of fertilization works for you. You can easily increase the fertilization for two weeks and see how your plants react and if the algae comes back. If it does, then drop it a bit. It is all trial and error to see what works in your tank, with your water, fish load, lighting. etc.
> ...


i agree with you, i have done many experiments to agree with you.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

So I don't need to tear everything out? My dwarf hairgrass is growing well and would suck to take out, stems are growing, blyxa and Val's aren't growing, hc is nice and green but not spreading.

The stems and Val's and blyxa and stauro wouldn't be that hard to take out and clean. How do you clean plants anyway?


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## Pen3 (Jan 2, 2007)

I think you need to clear up your water chemistry and see if you need to start over or leave and battle the algae with a new regulator. If your gh/kh really is 19d then somethings messed up.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

do whatever post #8 said


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## jingleberry (Mar 1, 2012)

The pictures are really blurry, but it looks like a mess. :icon_cry:

Have you tried blacking out the tank for a few days to a week? Like another poster mentioned strong dose of excel if you don't have any fish or shrimp, etc in there. You can try spot treating with hydrogen peroxide, but that stuff looks like it's everywhere.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

I would do water changes often if using Excel as there will be dead algae polluting the water.

Your light is very high as well. If you raise the light to 25-30" above the substrate so you have medium instead of high light your plants may be able to out do the algae faster.

Your nitrate is fine, it is the very high P, KH and GH that has the others concerned. Check your tap water to see what is what. Get a water report from the company and compare to what your test results are, very possible your tests aren't giving good results.

Rub that gunk off the plants and substrate and siphon it off with an airline. Get it out of the substrate and out of the tank! Plan to do a whole lot of water changes and filter rinsing until this stuff is gone. 

What clean up crew do you have? After the nasty stuff is gone consider using small snails for film algae, otos for the same and small live bearers like guppies, platies, mollies and swordtails to constantly pick at everything in the tank. I wouldn't want fauna to be eating that gunk as you killed it with who knows what in that algae killer, stock them once the gunk is gone.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

So I retested my ph today and it was between 7.2 and 7.6 and also the kh test took 18 drops to go from blue to yellow. Not sure what the means but that's what I got. Also I noticed that my friends wAter softener was empty so I refilled that today so I'll retest in the coming days. We get well water here.


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## touch of sky (Nov 1, 2011)

Are you using water from a water softener in the tank now?

I am on well water, too, that has a fairly high gh and kh, and don't have a problem using it in my planted tanks.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Right now I only have 5 Otos and maybe 3 assassin snails.

So should I uproot everything and clean as much stuff as I can besides the hc and just replant everything?

How much exel do you use?

I guess I'll try a blackout this weekend and see how it goes. Also I'm assuming if I do a blackout I should turn the co2 off? Do I still ei dose?

Also I just use tap water and prime but the water softener was completely empty in the apartment so I just refilled that today. Not sure if it will help but we'll see.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Only use Excel as directed, 1 ml per 10 gallons at least at first. It can cause trouble overdone.

I wouldn't do a black out, there is so much dead stuff in your tank the water would get polluted further. Use an airline to siphon out all that gunk or break down the tank to clean everything. Save tank water or make dechlorinated water to rinse the filter.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Jeez I really didn't want to tear her down. I'll try the exel and frequent water changes for a bit first I guess

Can I dose exel every day even running pressurized co2?


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

You should pick something and try it. I wouldn't try everything all at once or bits of every recomendation so far. A black out will probably wipe out your HC and blxya. 

I would take out a bulb if you can, or raise the fixture a good bit. Make sure your co2 is consistent and on a timer and manually remove as much algae as you can. If it comes off easy just use some smaller diameter tubing so you can vacuum for a long time without draining the tank. Start doing heavy water changes daily and see if you see an improvement after a week or two.

If you have a water softener I would not use your tap water. Water softeners are brutal for aquariums. If the tap water isn't softened and is actually the liquid rock you are saying it is I would consider mixing with RO to get something a little more decent.

Are you doing your weekly 100% water changes with ei, and are you sure you have the correct dosages? The EI dosing shouldn't be an issue, but with really high light (like you have) and sloppy co2 dosing you can have big problems.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I've just been dosing according to the scale outlined in the ei dosing thread for my size tank. I'm just doing 50 percent water changing weekly at this point. The tank is actually at my ex's house and she says she is dosing everyday. The co2 has been inconsistent due to my regulator but that will change next week. Its just hard to make a battle plan here with all this advice, which I greatly appreciate.

So I'm untrueged with the exel. Not sure how often I can dose though? I can raise the light easy enough. I will also start changing a significant amount of water every two days or so.

Im just confused at this point but love my tank and want it beautiful and with happy fish.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

If you want to go heavy on the excel you could probably do double the typical dose everyday safely with a normal water change routine. If you are doing 50+% every day you could probably do a bit more. 

The first step is to get everything stable and giver with the water changes. This is assuming you have good tap water though. If it is really rock hard or loaded with phosphates you may need to find another source.


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## KH2PO4 (Jul 18, 2009)

Unless we know why algae happens. We shouldn't be so sure what induces algae or not.

Try cutting PO4 down. 10 PPM is very high even by EI standard. I don't want to tell you 
why I use KH2PO4 as my username.

There may be other factors involved since some tanks with high N and P don't have problems. 
But cutting them down seems to lower the risk.

Many scientific articles still point the relation between high N and P and algae
(not only green water, but also filamentous algae). 

"CAUSES OF THE DECLINE IN AQUATIC PLANTS"
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/006/AC858E/AC858E05.htm









Invasive aquatic plant like Myriophyllum aquaticum loses the fight with 
(filamentous) algae when PO4 is high.
http://www.hpc.msstate.edu/publications/docs/2011/03/8746Wersal_Madsen_Hydrobiol_665_2011.pdf

BGA and phosphate.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/167228-what-causes-cyanobacteria-2.html


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I tested my tap water today twice and the phosphates came up at zero both times so that's good I suspect.


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## takadi (Dec 13, 2010)

I had this before. It was not a pretty sight. The stuff was weird, like brush algae, but it was gray, slimy, and looked dead plant matter. You could pull it off easily but it would come back. I attributed it to a number of problems - unstable CO2, too much light, overfeeding (could explain the high phosphates), and tons of particulates and organics in the water column. The last one was the biggest suspect, and could have contributed more to the unstable chemistry in the water than anything else. It had to do with the fact that I got some drift wood from a local creek and did not clean off the bark and the soft tissue. What ended up happening is that it started to decompose, clog up my filter, and everything soon just became coated. It didn't not help that I digging dojo loaches and aquasoil.

I was able to clear up some of it by upping the bubble rate of my CO2, staggering my light schedule, feeding less, doing 50-75 percent water changes every week (and cleaning out the filter pads along with it), and removing all of the driftwood and scraping the soft parts off until I was left with just bare hard wood.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

You have too much light. Two T5HO bulbs, with good reflectors, 20 inches from the substrate means you have well over 100 micromols of PAR at the substrate. Half of that would be much more appropriate. Right now it probably isn't possible to get enough CO2 in the water to meet the needs of the plants, so bad algae are almost inevitable.

If you have a FishNeedIt light, you are in luck. They are so inefficient as T5HO lighting that you would have just about the right amount of light.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Oh Hoppy, how I love it when you chime in. 

OP, raise that light a bit (or turn off a bulb), get that co2 in check like you said you were and hit that baby with frequent, large water changes. Report back in a week or two when you've had a chance to see what happens. Takadi has a good point too so make sure you don't have anything rancid in there either. 

At least then we can rule out lights and co2 if this doesn't work.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

It's a Haagen glo fixture so I'm not sure how good the reflectors are? 

Ok so how high should I hang the light? I can adjust it super easy!

So now should I raise the light, dose with exel, do big weekly water changes, dial the phosphate ei dosing down a bit and Monday when my new reg comes in set the co2 as much as I can without harming the Otos?

Sincerely thank you everyone for being so responsive on this post. Even if some of the advice is conflicting I really appreciate all the comments. I'm still learning and figuring things out so it's been a great help.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

If you could raise the Hagen Glo even 4-6 inches you should drop the light intensity enough. It doesn't have very good reflectors, compared to the really good ones.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Hey man, everyone wants to help others succeed. It really sucks when things aren't working out for you. It's really good that you are looking for help and open to suggestions. 

Everyone has a different opinion too, which is fine. I would just concentrate on getting things setup properly and stable and see if you still have problems 
If so you can build off a solid base. You need stability so you can isolate the issue.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Alright so I did a big water change and lifted the lights about 22-23 inches above the substrate. I also started dosing exell daily and my new regulator should be here next week. So once that's set and stable I'm going to leave it alone for a few weeks and just continue water changes twice a week. Hope this helps.

You think the lights are high enough now? Too high? Too low? Again it's a glo 2x24 watt fixture over a 33 gal mr aqua.

Thanks


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I think you probably have 50-60 micromols of PAR now. That may be too much for not having a good CO2 system yet. If the light was about 25 inches from the substrate I think you might drop the intensity down to around 40 micromols. I don't know any way to be sure just how much light you have without using a PAR meter, and I have seen only one, possibly 2 PAR readings for that Hagen Glo light, so my guesses may not be that accurate.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Well your expertise is greatly appreciated. Just have to see how it goes in the next week.


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## slimjim (Apr 26, 2012)

dude this algae stuff got to go !!! i have the same issue! and i have inverts and fish for some reason i think in nature the mor plants the less algae so i think and i will experiment by getting more plants, i have about 80 fish/inverts/snails in my 120. yeah its over kill!!! but there has to be massive CO2 in there!


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Fish and inverts don't give you any CO2 to speak of. Probably 1% of what is needed, at most. Remember, to generate CO2 the fish need oxygen, and oxygen doesn't dissolve in water nearly as much as CO2 does.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Well I tested my water again today and I have no clue what to do:

Nitrates 40ppm
Hardness 300 plus
Alkalinity 300 plus
Ppm 460
Tds .65

My water is [email protected] obviously. Can't afford a ro/di unit especially using around 17gal a week of water. Can I do anything here or is it sledge hammer time. One note is that my water was tested with water used before I refilled the water softener.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

What does "Ppm 460" refer to? You water certainly is hard if your test kits are even close to being correct. Are you using water from a house water softener? That isn't a good idea.


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## chiefroastbeef (Feb 14, 2011)

I too would try blacking out the tank (no lights) for a couple of days with some dosing of excel/glut. 

I had minimal amount of BBA on some of my slow growing plants, spot-treating the BBA with excel didn't help. I left the lights off for four days during a trip, and when I came back, the BBA and some other algae was almost gone.

Black out is a good, free, painless way to get rid of certain kinds of algae. Do it for at least 3 days.

Give it a try, no harm done, your plants will survive.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> What does "Ppm 460" refer to? You water certainly is hard if your test kits are even close to being correct. Are you using water from a house water softener? That isn't a good idea.


I used a probe in my geology class thaty teacher brought in to test water samples. Conductivity in ohms was .65 and Tds-ppm was 460. Also I use water from the tap but the water softener unit for the apartment hadn't been working.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

I'm confused, you mention the water softener hadn't been working. 

Do you use tap water for your routine water changes?
Is the tap water softened at this moment?
Under normal conditions is the tap water being softened?

I am weary of blackouts because while they annihilate the algae, you lose a lot of plants too, and you don't fix the underlying issues.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Your water isn't [censored][censored][censored][censored], necessarily. We need units with the readings do we know what you're talking about. TDS isn't .65 for example. 

What test kits are you using?


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

jcgd said:


> I'm confused, you mention the water softener hadn't been working.
> 
> Do you use tap water for your routine water changes?
> Is the tap water softened at this moment?
> ...



Yeah I use tap water for my water changes and use prime. The apartments water is softened with a water softener but hadn't been working up until now, my ex was unaware that she was supposed to fill it.

As for what I used to test the water it was a meter with a probe on it that tested ph, conductivity and tds, all most likely in ppm. The nitrates, hardness and alkalinity was tested with API strips and besides the nitrates was off the charts.

Thanks again. 

And I don't think a blackout will work well with my hc. I will be blacking out on booze though tonight after all this!


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Yeah I use tap water for my water changes and use prime. The apartments water is softened with a water softener but hadn't been working up until now, my ex was unaware that she was supposed to fill it.
> 
> As for what I used to test the water it was a meter with a probe on it that tested ph, conductivity and tds, all most likely in ppm. The nitrates, hardness and alkalinity was tested with API strips and besides the nitrates was off the charts.
> 
> ...


 
those water softner contain salt, they use that salt to soften the water, which isnt same as using RO system, with that water plant will only suffer more.

correct me if am wrong


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

happi said:


> those water softner contain salt, they use that salt to soften the water, which isnt same as using RO system, with that water plant will only suffer more.
> 
> correct me if am wrong


You're correct with the Chemical ways to "soften water"

But an apartment building likely wouldn't treat their water more than a membrane right? Is that how they're softening water?


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

TWA said:


> You're correct with the Chemical ways to "soften water"
> 
> But an apartment building likely wouldn't treat their water more than a membrane right? Is that how they're softening water?


 
no they will not use RO to clean their water, this will cost them too much money, they are likely to use salt or potassium chloride, they both are bad for fish and plants. maybe this has been your main problem the whole entire time.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I don't understand why. A lot of stores use membranes to soften their water. They aren't complete RO systems they're just filters to get rid of a lot of the stuff. What's the point of softening with salts etc? They could even be just a series of paper filters but I know a lot of stores use these to "clean" the water coming in.

OP should find out what actually goes into softening the water. Could solve a lot problems


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Yeah it uses salt to charge the water and soften it. It's definitely not ro water. 

Is there a relatively cheap way to get ro water or do I just need to save up for a unit?


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Well most petstores sell it at 25-50 cents a gallon. Not a long term solution but a thought nonetheless


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## takadi (Dec 13, 2010)

Bulk reef supply sells some for pretty cheap. Or you can be the ultimate cheapskate and collect rainwater. Rain can be pretty acidic though, so you have to adjust accordingly. 

If you plant very very heavily and crank out the co2, the plants will also absorb all of the minerals. When I had water lettuce, the ph would plummet after I culled some out because there would be an explosion of growth and the water lettuce would double in population in less than a week. KH and GH were essentially zero.


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## takadi (Dec 13, 2010)

I ran into this thread

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/shrimp-other-invertebrates/174435-check-out-my-new-ro-di.html

Seems like there are some super cheap options to buy RO units at this site

http://www.purewaterclub.com/catalog/index.php


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

That's a decent price. Maybe I should just break down and get one. Do you need the di or just ro? Was going to get lily pipes but perhaps this unit is more needed.

Oh boy.


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## takadi (Dec 13, 2010)

RO doesn't remove everything, just whatever the membrane can get out. DI makes the TDS effectively zero. But unless you have some really super sensitive fish, are trying to set up for breeding, or are really OCD and need to have absolute control over every parameter, RO is good enough for the vast majority of purposes. Although on the site it looks as if everything on there is RO DI


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## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

RO is pretty darned close though - for sure close enough for freshwater planted tanks. You should be able to get your water from the supply before the softener. That's what I would try - also, they usually don't soften kitchen sink water because the dishes don't care if the water is hard or not, and it wastes a lot of salt. It's also bad for you to cook with or drink due to the elevated sodium levels. You might trace your water pipes to see if there's an unsoftened source of usable water. I bet there is. Forget RO water for now - check out your pipes.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

*RO/DI Unit*



takadi said:


> I ran into this thread
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/shrimp-other-invertebrates/174435-check-out-my-new-ro-di.html
> 
> ...


Is there any real difference between the 150gpd portable units and the 150gpd regular units. I know there are stage differences but I'm just not sure which one to get. I know I need the one that I can just screw into the head of my utility sink, not hook it into the plumbing under the sink or anything. There is a little bit of a price difference but I want to order one asap and want to make sure I get the right one!

Thanks


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## takadi (Dec 13, 2010)

Honestly I couldn't tell you 100%. From my own judgment from looking at the site, I'd say the "traditional" Ro units are the portable ones with a few extra filtration stages. I'd say just go with what's cheapest.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Yeah I'm not real sure here what to get?


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I ended up getting the portable 150gpd ro/di unit. Good price and I'm hoping it helps tremendously. Between that and raising my light and my new reg I'm hoping to get this straight. Will keep updating! Fingers crossed, I want fish!!!


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

Change your photo period to *4 hours on, 2 hour siesta and 4 hours on*.
Plants will survive and thrive, algae will take a nosedive.

Trust me, I'm not a doctor.

-Gordon


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