# LED components list - Does this look right?



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

I've been reading a lot of different threads and I think I've got the list for what I want but after reading so many different threads your head starts to spin and mix some things together. I want to make sure this equipment list is right in case I've over looked something.

With the 3W LEDs so cheap now it only makes sense to overbuild it and dim to what's needed. From what I've been reading it seems that using many LED's at a lower power (as opposed to fewer but higher power LED) seems to have many benefits including more fine color control, better light spread and less heat. Only downside (to some) seems to be that with many LEDs you won't get the shimmer effect like would with a few high power LEDs. Does that all sound right?


Ok, with that in mind this is going over a 75 g (48x18x21) dirted tank that I'll be setting up soon. Want to go heavily planted with pressurized co2 and medium lighting with ideally no dosing. 

LEDs, all 700 mA:

3w Cool White (6500K) 
3w Warm White (3000-3500K)
3w Red (660 nM) 
3w Royal Blue (445-455 nM)
3w Full Spectrum (Violet) 

5x Meanwell LDD-700H drivers on PCB

48v 7.5A PSU

Aluminum channel for heatsink since this likely won't need an overkill heat sink at the power they'll be running at.

Possibly Hurricane controller? (What other options are there for dimming, separate channel control and timer on/off)

__________


I want to make sure this is correct. 12 LED's per string at about 3.5 Vf per LED takes me to about 41-42 V. 13 LED's would be about 45-46 V (calculated using highest Vf range on LED specs). However, 13 LED's only leaves about 2 volts of headroom if I am using a 48v power supply. Does that matter? 

So now that I'm running 12 LED's per string, I calculated the wattage of each string. 41volts x 700 mA = ~29 watts. If I use 5 strings of these 12 LED's and add in some headroom I'd need at least a 48v 5A (240 watts) power supply. I can get a 48v 7.5A (360) PS for the same price so I figure it's better to run that incase I do need to add a fan later.

Is my simple math correct so far?

A question about the Typhon/Hurricane controller - Can I piggy back two strings off one channel? For example, I would have 2 strings of 12 white LED's. Could I connect the 2 LDD's powering those strings to one channel of the controller? If so, with a 4 channel controller this would allow me to run each color LED on it's own channel and control it's intensity. If not, is there an 8 channel controller?


Now, this light can sit anywhere from sitting on the tank to about 1-2 feet above it. Would I be best to raise it and use optics (90* or ??) or keep it lower and no optics? The LEDs are 120* lenses currently.

Any problems anyone see's here?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Baby steps:
first LDD's require about 3V overhead.. so any math is done w/ power supply-3V

As to control.. Typhon/Storm ect can dim literally dozens of LDD's off one channel.
you want a cheaper control, consider a modified tc-420..

Optics are decided mostly on 1) depth of tank and/or 2) height you want the lights at.
tighter optics do create a bit more problem w/ disco or spot coloring..
At 1-2ft recommend optics I guess. 

Actual V(f) is determined by current using constant current so numbers need to be treated as ballpark figures unless known (you won't, even quality emitters can be different bins w/ different characteristics)

consider mixing some regular blue in w/ the royal..2 different bandwidths.. actually if you are going to use the "full spectrum chips" skip the RB all together.Every white diode is RB based as is the full spectrum.
consider a blue/cyan channel in place of rb channel..

go heavy on whites and not so much on colors..really ww/cw is more than adequate for growth..

cyan and violet are mostly absent in the above palette (some cyan/blue in the whites, zero violet anywhere)

deep reds run at about 2 plus volts.. not 3 usually.

suggest not really using 700mA drivers for ultra cheap LEDs off eek bay.
500mA drivers..at 3.6v =1.8W/diode.. Yea seems like a waste but saves constant replacement. Good thing is LDD @ $7 (can be had slow boat from China for $5 inc. shipping) is a cheap upgrade.
There are some lumiled rebel 3W emitters @ $1 a piece (you know where). Suggest using those though price is higher. so far had god luck w/ them where I have replaced almost all cheap whites due to failures (time frame over 1yr)..YMMV.

W/ pwm no need for a timer.. dim to zero..
As to ps bigger is usually always better. 

correction.. skip optics, I see you have a large range of heights...
you have a fairly large spread (f/b) and deeper..kind of a crap shoot here.. 

consider pricing out heatsink material from here:
http://www.heatsinkusa.com/
some is cheaper than u channel and a bit more "proper"..

Oh and since white will be your main component.. consider 2:1 cw/ ww..
And some have found using the "full spectrum chips" that even higher white (10000k-ish) is necessary to cut the magenta tone down. 

consider not even using them.. and mix reg red in w/ the 660nm.. same thing really. They have a broad spectrum red phosphor on a royal blue core.. nice for 
a stand alone mix (full spectrum plus high K white) but w/ all the colors..really is questionable..

some of this is dependent on what you want to accomplish..Plants generally adapt to light spectrum colors and quantity is more important . To you quality is also a deciding factor..


----------



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

Thanks for the reply.

I'll look into this some more. 

So I should stick to the WW/CW and add either regular blue or cyan and add full spectrum to hit the violet? 
Or just go with WW/CW and some regular red and 660nm? If so, should I add one or two full spectrum to get some violet?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

r.s.hutchinson said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I am just slightly confused as you say to add reg blue to the royal blue, and add reg red to the 660, but also wrote to skip the Red/Blue.
> 
> Aside from the WW/CW, what other colors and in what ratio to the WW/CW do you think is a good combination for plant growth to hit the violet and cyans you mention (would like to keep my red plants red) and also to bring out the reds and blues of fish and shrimp? I tend to like the tank looking a little cooler in color rather than yellow so I thought adding some red and blue would help accentuate that but I have no experience when it comes to this.


First what I meant is skip the "full spectrum", which you labelled as violet:








Little violet in the output.. More magenta in color. Little green. WHY is is "full spectrum" seems to mean full plant spectrum (arguable..)
Great little plant chips somewhat problematic as to color tone.










Notice the blue/cyan dip in almost all whites (there are some high CRI that do add there but not the ekk bay ones AFAICT)

so if you want violet you need to add violet emitters.
If you want added cyan you need to add cyan..

Here is your "pallete" for the most part:








There are some others like 700nm red. 

so a channel of say blue and cyan covers the gap. May make a cool "moonlight"..
buy violets in place of the "full spectrum" channel. Run them w/ low current.. say 350
Add red to deep red and possibly IR red to the red channel.
RGB in any combination make white like cyan rb and 66nm red make a type of "white"..
Use a lot of high K white 
and 1/2 of low k white..
That is one way to look at it..
Infinite other ways..
As to making things red well lot of discussion on that from iron, nitrogen starvation, uv, to high intensity light.
Not really anything that is currently my focus.
In an off the cuff way, high light rich in blue seems to be one answer in LED's.
buying naturally red plants is another..
This is fun to play with..
http://spectra.1023world.net/


----------



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

Thanks so much for the replies Jeff, that clears a lot up. If I go with the Luxeon Rebel emitters you mentioned, is it recommended to run them at 700 or 1000 mA? I'm assuming given that they are a quality LED I'll have no problem running them at 1 A. I could go with less of them compared to the cheaper ones.

Do you happen to know what colors or LEDs the Finnex Monster Ray are composed of? I saw some videos with them on in addition to other white lights (such as Ray 2 and Planted Plus) and they really bring out the colors while having a little magenta tone you mentioned before. Mixing in some 10K might mute that a little. They look like they are just the "full spectrum" LED's but doesn't mean they necessarily are. 

Monster Ray
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3aA_VTfBK0


What are the mods you mentioned for the TC-420? That looks like it should work great.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

in a hurry, but mostly rgb ("reg" red, "reg" blue) 



> Each LED bulb consists of 3 fixed colors: Red, Green and Blue.


 
Beamswork makes a roseate which is RGB w/ green dimmed..
mod:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/980633-how-use-tc-420-control-ldd-drivers.html








These is the theoretical possibility of just powering it w a 5 or 6(?)V power supply. Then no need to add additional wires..I've never tested it though.
Just used 12V for the tc and tapped the 5v PWNM fed to the gate of those MOSFETS..


----------



## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I think much of the market for these LEDs lie in the pot growing business.
Which is why there is less of a focus on the visual colour spectrum.


----------



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> in a hurry, but mostly rgb ("reg" red, "reg" blue)


Aesthetically, would using just the full spectrum led's look the same to human eyes?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

r.s.hutchinson said:


> Aesthetically, would using just the full spectrum led's look the same to human eyes?


----------



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

I think I'm really over thinking things here and adding complications and costs I don't need. 

Since the plants will get more than enough light in their usable spectrums to grow from just the mix of cw/ww, I'm really just needing to add the color LEDs to help accentuate the red and blue in the fish, inverts and plants and create a tone I like. 

I like the color added with the monster ray so I want to try and emulate that. As you say the monster ray is made up of RGB, Could I simply put 8-12 reds and 8-12 blues on their own channels to do this? Then the rest be a 2:1 mix of cw/ww. 

I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here. I can't seem to grasp if the full spectrum LEDs will emulate the monster ray.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Full spectrum need "green" to match the monster ray..
Technically the full spectrum is much better (power aside) than the monster ray for plants.
The full spectrum uses a blue diode and red emitting broad spectrum of phosphors.. (actually a combination of 3 red phosphors afaict.

This is like a monster ray w/out green (well a lot of green) and is what the full spectrum is like:
actually consider it 1/2 way between the monster ray and full spec chips..

LED Aquarium Lighting Freshwater Bright
Why not just go all out and make a R(660nm)/G(cyan really)/B/ww/cw setup?

From the above you are only going from 4 channels to 5..Not much of a difference..
to satisfy both you and the plants 
ch1 8deep red, 4 red
ch2 12cyan (more than needed 6 would be minimum)
ch3 9rb, 3b
ch4 12 neutral white (note change from cool white to neutral white 
ch5 12 warm white..
MAY be off on the diodes above a bit.. but not anything to be concerned with.
12200K 70CRI
100PAr at 30cm
pink/white
This config is almost identical to a RGB array w/ better "hits" on the chlorophyll/carotenoid absorption peaks..
Will post a comparison graph later..

Yea more complicated but that is really the point isn't it? Take something existing and improve it.


----------



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

I should add that I only like how the monster ray looks in addition to another white light fixture, such as the Ray2 or similar. That seems to be a popular combination as well. Just trying to build it for less than buying them. 

Thank you for helping.

Is that 100 PAR with running the Luxeon's at 1A or the cheapo's at 500 mA?

Will this support carpets in a 75g with CO2?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

r.s.hutchinson said:


> I should add that I only like how the monster ray looks in addition to another white light fixture, such as the Ray2 or similar. That seems to be a popular combination as well. Just trying to build it for less than buying them.
> 
> Thank you for helping.
> 
> ...


cheapos at 1W 350mA.. 

at 12'



















$180...


----------



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> ch1 8deep red, 4 red
> ch2 12cyan (more than needed 6 would be minimum)
> ch3 9rb, 3b
> ch4 12 neutral white (note change from cool white to neutral white
> ...


Is that 9 royal blue or 9 regular blue? I'm thinking its royal blue. 

So this config would be similar to a combination of both a Ray 2 combined with a color enhancing (like the Monster or the Beamswork you linked to) array as well? But with infinitely more control over color and dimming.

I believe I read the general rule is 40-70 PAR is medium light. Is that right under the light? And at what depth is that PAR value for, the 30 cm? 

You've been unbelievably helpful, I appreciate it.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

r.s.hutchinson said:


> Is that 9 royal blue or 9 regular blue? I'm thinking its royal blue.


Yes rb royal blue
SLIGHT error make it 9 reg. blue 3 royal blue



r.s.hutchinson said:


> So this config would be similar to a combination of both a Ray 2 combined with a color enhancing (like the Monster or the Beamswork you linked to) array as well? But with infinitely more control over color and dimming.


Yes


r.s.hutchinson said:


> I believe I read the general rule is 40-70 PAR is medium light. Is that right under the light? And at what depth is that PAR value for, the 30 cm?
> 
> You've been unbelievably helpful, I appreciate it.


The calculator came up w/ 99PAR at 12" using 1W diodes..

@60cm (23.6") using luxeon emitters and the 12;12;12;12;12;
red;cyan;blue;warm white;neutral white array
PAR is est at 53.8.. 120 degree (native ) optics..
Yea that would be under the light but w/ 120 degree beam angles by the time you are at 24" it is pretty even of a spread..
Just add more white to taste..You will probably dim the blue and cyan channels quite a bit... 

your tank is 21" 61PAR there.. Doubling the whites (24 and 24) puts you over 80..........

Saving "space" by combining the blue/cyan channel is doable as well. "IF" you were planning blue "nightlight" that channel will go more towords aqua.. A matter of taste but I find that more pleasing than straight blue.









http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1056929-planted-tank-related-sort.html

10 cyan to 2 blue.. add more blue for............... more blue.. 

not my tank above.. Any of my "full spectrum" lights don't "do" moonlight. Personal choice..

not to confuse things more but a "base"
pallette of 
24 5000k rebel's, 
24 3000k rebels, 
12 cyan, 
12 deep red 
and 12 royal blue produces a light at 14930K (cool blue)
86.9PAR at 53cm (21") CRI of 64.. 
CRI increases as you "dim" the royal blue channel hitting 96CRI at 1/3 power.. PAR drops to 76

the calculator is addictive.. 
http://spectra.1023world.net/


----------



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

Just when I think I've almost got it figured out you throw some more into the mix, haha. 

I have 2 smaller blue led strips as moonlight now and don't particularly like it. It needs to be muted a bit to be more grey I feel. That's just something I'd have to play around with on the tc-429 to get a color I like for sunrise and sunset and very dim moonlight.

I didn't think 12/12 for the whites was enough so i was going to add another driver and string to bring them up to 18/18 each.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

r.s.hutchinson said:


> Just when I think I've almost got it figured out you throw some more into the mix, haha.
> 
> I have 2 smaller blue led strips as moonlight now and don't particularly like it. It needs to be muted a bit to be more grey I feel. That's just something I'd have to play around with on the tc-429 to get a color I like for sunrise and sunset and very dim moonlight.
> 
> I didn't think 12/12 for the whites was enough so i was going to add another driver and string to bring them up to 18/18 each.


Whites are your workhorse.. 
For fun:


----------



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

Just ordered LED's, LDD-500h Drivers and PS. These are coming slow-boat so it'll be a while to get here.

I've got some reading to do on the TC-420 but it looks like I just need a 12-24v PSU to power the TC-420 but I need to ground both the 48v LED PSU and the 12v TC420 PSU together?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

r.s.hutchinson said:


> Just ordered LED's, LDD-500h Drivers and PS. These are coming slow-boat so it'll be a while to get here.
> 
> Can I use the Tc-420 if I'm using 48v for my LED strings? The TC-420 is rated for 12-24 volts DC but I'm not sure if that is to power it? I've got some reading to do on that.


no, you can power the tc-430 w/ 12v (or try 5v, will get back to that).. Use the 48V to power the strings.
The TC-420 if the MOSFETS are bypassed like in the below photo acts like an Aduino or Typhon or any 5V PWM controller..









Wiring diagram as generic as you can get.
The PWM "generator" is any controller and it is powered by it's own power supply. 
Just note the common ground wire :


----------



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

Okay, so I've built the light and having 2 issues. I don't have a Windows computer to control the TC-420 so I haven't been able to set up a mode for it. With no mode programmed, will the TC420 cause the lights to be at 0%? Because with the DIM wire connected on the drivers they do not come on. I'm tracking down a computer to use to set it up.

Secondly, the blue and cool white strings light up however I cannot get the red and warm white strings to come on. This is with the TC-420 bypassed, just running off the power supply. I've swapped drivers and still nothing. I've traced wiring and it all appears to be correct. Aside from a short, is there anything you can think of to look for? When I first power on the power supply, the red string flashes on and then stays off. I've got 48.4v across the power and ground going to that string from the PS.

I have 12 LED's in each string. I know the red LED's have a lower fV than the others, is it a problem that I've still only used 12? I figured the string would only pull what it needs regardless of the others but I want to make sure.


Edit: Okay, so found the issue on the white string, 1 bad LED. 

I can't find a short in the red LED's. All 12 of them work as I can put a small current across each individual LED and they dimly light. I'll keep looking.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> =r.s.hutchinson;9814122. Aside from a short, is there anything you can think of to look for? When I first power on the power supply, the red string flashes on and then stays off. I've got 48.4v across the power and ground going to that string from the PS.
> 
> I have 12 LED's in each string. I know the red LED's have a lower fV than the others, is it a problem that I've still only used 12? I figured the string would only pull what it needs regardless of the others but I want to make sure.
> 
> ...


Check from the LED pad to the heat sink.. You know plus on the pad probe. Neg to the heat sink. If any light you have a small bridge from th LED to the heat sink..
Actually kind of common.. A little solder curles over th edge touching the AL pad on the star..

IF that isn't it you will nedd to set up a test unit.. Say a 12V (voltage size really doesn't matter. amp rating should be greater than for the LDD just because, You could use a 9V batttery as well btw but amp out is unregulated.. ) PS w/ an ldd attached.. Test between 3 to 4 diodes and make sure all light brightly..

A REALITY check.. just had a whole sting of whites black out on me.. No broken wires, no bridges, no dead LED's (by VOM test). Only testing in groups reveled one "group" would light but only dimly..
Found one suspect (older cheap diode which was from a group known to prematurely fail) and removed it.. Rest now all light fine.

It was oddly an "intermittent" problem at higher currents..Never saw this before..Was annoying.


----------



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

Using the continuity setting on the meter and attaching positive probe to positive on led pad and attaching negative probe to heatsink did not cause any to light or show continuity on the tester.

I'll test in groups next. So let me get the method straight. I can take any 12v 6a or larger PS (500 ma drivers and 12 led in the string so 6 amps, correct?) and attach the positive from the ldd to the first led in the group I want to test and take the negative from the ldd and attach to the last led in the group?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

r.s.hutchinson said:


> Using the continuity setting on the meter and attaching positive probe to positive on led pad and attaching negative probe to heatsink did not cause any to light or show continuity on the tester.


Need to do the reverse as well AFAICT..


r.s.hutchinson said:


> I'll test in groups next. So let me get the method straight. I can take any 12v 6a or larger PS (500 ma drivers and 12 led in the string so 6 amps, correct?) and attach the positive from the ldd to the first led in the group I want to test and take the negative from the ldd and attach to the last led in the group?


Yes you are just shortening the strings..
12V 1A ext.. Doesn't really matter since you are regulating the current w/ the LDD.. Only catch is testing a group at below the cum. V(f) and your power supply
i.e 12-3= 9V max voltage so like 3-4 reds in a group.
if you find a problematic group then probe each ind. Using "real" current will check for intermittents..Until I ran into this w/ mine, didn't even think this was possible..


----------



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

Tested them out in the groups like you said and no problems. So I went back to double checking the connections and found the problem. All is good now.

One other thing, I am using a power supply off eBay with a built-in fan that says on the casing that is will turn on-off according to load. However, the fan runs constant. Doesn't speed up, doesn't slow down, just always on even with out any load on it or anything connected. Any one experience that before? I bought it more than 3 months ago but just getting to using it now so doubtful that the seller will be of any help.

I really don't want to listen to or have the fan run 24/7 even when the lights are dimmed to 0 so I'm looking for a good quiet replacement 48v 8A PSU.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

r.s.hutchinson said:


> Tested them out in the groups like you said and no problems. So I went back to double checking the connections and found the problem. All is good now.
> 
> One other thing, I am using a power supply off eBay with a built-in fan that says on the casing that is will turn on-off according to load. However, the fan runs constant. Doesn't speed up, doesn't slow down, just always on even with out any load on it or anything connected. Any one experience that before? I bought it more than 3 months ago but just getting to using it now so doubtful that the seller will be of any help.
> 
> I really don't want to listen to or have the fan run 24/7 even when the lights are dimmed to 0 so I'm looking for a good quiet replacement 48v 8A PSU.


YEA!!!
As to power supplies I usually "surplus" high quality fanless types (usually caseless).. Saves the headache.
54V 280W example w/ 2 12V axillry rails and a 5V rail.. Also set up for current sharing so paralleling is no problem..
Was a "one of" deal though.. 









48V and 8A or greater have a tendency to be pricy..
Meanwell
TDK-Lambda and N2 come to mind..
more industrial..
http://www.alliedelec.com/tdk-lambda-dpp240-48-1/70177299/
http://www.alliedelec.com/tdk-lambda-dpp480-48-1/70177300/

As to fans, most seem to be replaceable w/ higher quality fans..fairly standard size AFAICT

how did you figure 8A?
Your red channel @ 1A and 12x 2.3V is only 27.6W
384W.. 8A ps..


----------



## r.s.hutchinson (Jun 4, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> YEA!!!
> As to power supplies I usually "surplus" high quality fanless types (usually caseless).. Saves the headache.
> 54V 280W example w/ 2 12V axillry rails and a 5V rail.. Also set up for current sharing so paralleling is no problem..
> Was a "one of" deal though..
> ...


I don't think it's the fan that is necessarily the problem with this unit but the logic board that controls it. I am not sure.

You're right, I don't need one that big. I think my earlier calculations were using 13 LED's with LDD-700's which came out to 5A with a safety margin and then the price was the same for an 8A or 5A PSU so I went with the bigger one. Instead I'm using 12 LEDs with LDD-500 drivers so I need a 48v 3A power supply to be on the safe side, correct? 

That is a nice PS you pictured, it would save running a separate power cord for the TC420.

Now that you squared that away I have more options when looking for a quieter supply.


----------

