# Amano style tank



## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

my other concern is ..is my 18 W "sunlight" way tooo low light for
plants to thrive ?


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## VadimShevchuk (Sep 19, 2009)

It will be hard to get a nice foreground carpet without strong light co2 and ferts. Need a new light fixture for sure if you want that ada style look.


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## Takedakai (Jan 4, 2010)

I only know of one way to carpet HC without using C02 and that is to grow immersed for 4-6 weeks before filling the tank. The result is here but keep in mind he uses a ton of light.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/101040-30-gallon-cube.html


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

Yes Takedakai, I read that post I think... I couldn't decide whether to do it immersed
or not.. but I guess now I'm sure..I have to do the immersed method.

Hopefully.... the DHG wont melt when I submerge them...


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Why are you afraid of ferts? There are a number of ways to dose and to be honest, its pretty easy with a little research here.

Foregrounds can be demanding. Good lighting is certainly a strong requirement for most, but some plants can be less demanding. Either way though, a good stable nutrient supply is a requirement.

Some people with low light tanks rely on fish food and poop to make up the demand for the plants. I have had limited success on this end but there are many who have had success.

I guess what I am trying to say is, you can't just plant and forget really. You need to have some involvement with the needs of the plants to make assurances that they are getting most of what they need to fourish, albeit slowly in a low tech setup.

Lighting, Carbon, NPK, and trace elements. Everything a growing plant needs.


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## boltp777 (Jan 16, 2009)

hey i agree wit a lot of things u have to say but i dont believe that carbon is necessary in a fish tank. especially a planted one


Gatekeeper said:


> Why are you afraid of ferts? There are a number of ways to dose and to be honest, its pretty easy with a little research here.
> 
> Foregrounds can be demanding. Good lighting is certainly a strong requirement for most, but some plants can be less demanding. Either way though, a good stable nutrient supply is a requirement.
> 
> ...


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

No carbon? CO2?


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## boltp777 (Jan 16, 2009)

i thought you meant carbon like the charcoal my bad lol.


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

Thank you guys for your advice. 

Gatekeeper: I see what you are saying ...I have ot be actively engaged with the 
setup until it gets to the point of self sustenance where I only top off the water..

could you tell me whats the best way to get good aquatic plants..carpet type
here in Central Jersey ? Petco ?


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

OK... call me crazy but I read a planted tank blog elsewhere and I wanna go
the potted soil route... I know I will have to cycle it with the immersed method
for about a month..I'm willing to wait and do that...

Only problem I have is finding the HC, Dwarf Hairgrass... will call places tomorrow.

and btw.... I guess I can do Seachem Flourish & Excel...


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## fhqwhgads (Jan 18, 2005)

take a look at this thread http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-nano-tanks/18027-my-1-g.html its pretty low tech but looks great


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## Sakmeht (Mar 5, 2008)

Just wanted to say that I use Schultz Aquatic Soil in my 30 gallon and my crypts and bacopa monnieri are growing very well. I haven't added fert tabs to the tank so I'm pleasantly surprised. I've heard it has a high CEC, which I believe means it's good at grabbing nutrients out of the water column and making them available in the substrate for plant roots. (Correct me if I'm wrong anyone)

However, I'll be re-doing my 75 gallon soon and plan to use mineralized top soil and am hoping to get even better results with that substrate. It's going to be mainly a crypt/sword tank.

Good luck!


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

knight007,

Mineralized soil is a bonus, especially for a low tech setup. Would beasically almost be maintenance free. CO2 is the only limiting factor which will most likely be ok in a low light setup.

As far as getting plants, do you travel up north at all? Not sure of many stores in central jersey. I am not a Petco fan, but some of them do carry the staple plants. You are better off buying plants online though compared to a store like that. You will get better quality and a better stock most likely. 

Do you know what plants you are looking for besides the hairgrass? 

_Hemianthus callitrichoides_ (HC) may not fair well with the low light setup. It will get really "wirey" and not carpet correctly. It needs the higher light to get the "creep" along the substrate. Under low light, its going to try and stand up to get closer to the lighting which really renders itself ineffective as a foreground. Not saying you can't try it, but just may come up short of your expectations.

If I can be bold and upfront, as someone new to the planted tank hobby, I highly reccomend trying a non-foreground plant. Something on the "easier" end. Foregrounds can get really frustrating quick. I would never turn someone away from trying, but I think that alot of people get out of the hobby because of the frustrations of poor plant selections. Some plants are just really difficult to keep, and if not in the correct conditions will just drive you nuts.

Great low light plants for beginners:

1. Anubias Sp. - Many different variants, and really an undemanding plant. They are rhizome plants, so they are not planted, yet they can be tied to rocks, wood, whatever and just placed in the tank anywhere. They can grow slow, but they are not really demending. They have a tough leaf structure and can be kept with some of the more types of fish species because of their resilience.

2. Cryptocoryne Sp. - A very diverse species full of wonderful different shapes, sizes, colors, etc. They are mostly undemanding (especially the more common species such as Cryptocoryne Wendtii and its vairants) and can survive under almost all tank conditions. They are on the "softer" leaf side, so keep away from herbivore species. They are rooted plants so a mineralized substrate is a big plus! (It does have a tendancy to wilt, or melt, when adapting to different conditions. This is natural.)

3. Microsorum pteropus - Sometimes refered to as Java Fern. Also a rhizome plant like anubias. Another "slower" growing plant under low light and is very undemanding. 

4. Sagittaria subulata - A smaller type plant that can be used as a foreground, but may not be effective in lower light (again, it may stretch up as opposed to out). I can't say its undemanding, but not exactly a difficult plant either.

5. Hygrophila species - The weed of the planted tank. They can be nutrient demanding, but most can survive under lower light too. They are all stem plants, so this is a great introduction species into that type of plant. Becareful with these though. Alot of them are noxious weeds, so disposal of them must be done with the utmost of care. Some are not even legal to purchase or sell.


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## alephnull (Jan 26, 2010)

How central is central?

The Pet Shanty on Rt. 22 in Scotch Plains has a decent assortment of plants, including HC. I would call ahead to see what they have in stock. If they are missing something, they are more than happy to order it for you. 

Good luck and keep up posted.


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

Thank you everyone and Gatekeeper ...

link posted above by fhqwgads ... highlighted the use of riccia and java moss...

I am sort of a minimalist myself.. and dont like the dutch or traditional style tanks with
broad leaf plants... I am going for small leaf plants only to make the 20 G look bigger
and natural...

I am also drawn to Diana Walstad's El Natural style.... I know it will be hard to perfect
it to that level....but I wanna start with simple and add new tanks later...

I dreamed of having a self sustained "Ecosysem" when i built my first terrarium 
in 6th grade... but i prefer the planted tank method..although i'm new to planted tanks,
and i'm still evolving

..now I have to find a good potting soil to use..and gravel to top it...
How long do I let the soil and gravel sit or cycle..b4 I add plants ?


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## Kamivy (Jan 3, 2010)

Are you planning to mineralise the soil first? This would break down a lot of the excess nutrients for you. There's a good sticky on it at the top of the substrate forum. Or are you just going to put it in the tank capped with gravel and fill it straight up? - either way, plant it straight away, you need to have something using the nutrients in the soil otherwise you may end up with greenwater/algae issues. The plants will assist in cycling the tank, they are not affected themselves by an uncycled tank.


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

Actually, I dont really want to mineralise the soil...

Correct me if I am wrong..but I would have to cycle the soil after I have grown
the plants with the "emersed" method..for another month after filling it b4 I can add
shrimp or fish ? That is if I do NOT mineralise..but use regular potting soil.


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## Kamivy (Jan 3, 2010)

I have never tried potting soil myself - I'm going the MTS route. In general some say when a tank is heavily planted there's no need to cycle because the plants absorb the ammonia etc, but that's not always reliable, and I have read on other peoples tank journals who have used potting soil without mineralization that they got gas pockets erupting etc for the first month or so while the tank settled in. I think wkndracer was one, perhaps you could look up his tank journal thread. Some had fish stocked while this happened, others waited - I'm inclined to agree with your thoughts - I would cycle it first to be on the safe side, but perhaps someone with firsthand experience using potting soil will chime in with their opinion on how long it is necessary to wait.


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

http://www.sudeepmandal.com/hobbies/planted-aquarium/low-tech-planted-tank-guide/

I found this page after searching DGH on this forum...and its extremely helpful..
Both Tom Barr and Diana Walstad methods are right in their theory... but for noobs like
me...its like reading a Calculus book when you didnt finish Algebra I.

So this page has given me a lot of guidance...and I am evolving towards the Diana
Walstad method... and now its proven that DHG and HC's can be grown in low light/
low tech natural style.... BUT.. I would like to try a few changes to it (human nature).

Now.. few Questions:
1. I wanna use potting topsoil mixed with some sand and top it off with gravel. 
So, would adding the sand be OK ??
2. I plan on growing DHG, HC and Riccia in "emersed" method... but the Walstad
method requires you to fill the tank immediately with dense growth ???
3. Initially unminerlised topsoil will release a lot of ammonia, I am assuming, due to
the emersed method...ammonia levels would have decreased a bit, and I can do
water changes after flooding tank b4 I add shrimp n oto's.

I plan on adding the Tetras last.

I appreciate all of your input.


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

I got Miracle Grow Organic Choice potting mix for the substrate.

I am not going ot mineralize it buyt Iwill let the substrate sit in my open tank
for few days to vent off the ammonia which will decrease significantly by this
air drying method. So lets see...


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## Kamivy (Jan 3, 2010)

I don't see why adding sand should cause any problems if you wanted to mix some in with the soil - it is recommended to have only an inch of soil under the gravel to avoid anaerobic pockets forming but with all your research you've done you're no doubt aware of that. As for your second question, perhaps you need to decide on one method or the other - unless you can grow the HC and riccia etc emersed seperately in advance than lay in the bottom of your tank in a slab to keep the carpet intact before filling with water and heavily planting immediately as per the walstead method? lol don't know if it would work practically speaking, just an idea to combine both.

Keep us posted on your progress. I hear miracle gro has a lot of bark and twigs in it - are you going to sift that out first?


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

Today I will open the Miracle Grow and spread it out in the tank
to vent off the ammonia...I am kinda torn to or not to emerse... but I think 
I will go with emersed to allow the DHG and HC to grow in ...since I dont want
my plants to melt the first time I try a NPT due to lack of CO2 or something...

But hopefully I will learn a lot with my first experiment and will be able to perfect it...

and as for the bark....I will take out extremely big odd sized pieces (if any) but I will
leave the Miracle grow as it is... only thing I will be doing that will change its'
composition is to let it air dry in the tank (to avoid mess) for couple days to vent
off the ammonia (so I learned). 

As a Biologist I do believe in the Walstad method even before I actually try it....
I think the science is behind it... if anything goes wrong...it will be human error


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

kamivy...are there any pros ?? or cons ?? to mixing sand with the substrate... ie
Miracle Grow ?


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

knight007 said:


> kamivy...are there any pros ?? or cons ?? to mixing sand with the substrate... ie
> Miracle Grow ?


Nope, will help you spread it out more. Nothing wrong with adding a clay based product either.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Personally I think your spinning your wheels trying to grow HC/DHG with 18watts of light on a 20g. There are minimum intensities required to grow those plants well. As Gatekeeper alluded to. There is a difference between a plant growing healthy and lush and carpeting correctly as opossed to it just 'growing'. Without good growth other issues will develop. IMO you would be much better off doing one of Amanos moss/fern type nature setups.


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

Thank you Gatekeeper and houseofcards...

I will be adding some mosses because I heard that they do well in low light
conditions... probably Willow Moss or Java moss... 

but I'll take it one step at a time....if these species dont fare well...then I'll
have to quit the idea of growing miniaures in low light....

but.... my 20g is next to the window and its always sunny in Jersey 
and btw...the EL NAtural method requires you to place tank close to window
to make up for the low light levels.... anyone know any calculations how much
bright indirect sunlight is equal to in watts....


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

btw..houseofcards... cool site and awesome scapes !!!


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## Kamivy (Jan 3, 2010)

Gatekeeper said:


> Nope, will help you spread it out more. Nothing wrong with adding a clay based product either.


+1 to this - can also help improve water circulation through the substrate if it is a little clayish, not that miracle gro would be.

Sorry, don't know any calculations for sunlight!


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

...found a nice page showing wattage per sq. meter through window...

assuming 1 sq meter of tank surface ara is exposed to light..on my 20G...
it would be getting either 15 to 30 watts..( or little less)

so sunlight will help out quite a bit in the Walstad method.


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## Kamivy (Jan 3, 2010)

Depending on the amount of cloud cover on any given day... The problem with sunlight is it's just so darn unpredictable!:tongue:

IMO, there's something to be said for a set number of watts on a timer - reduces the variables and makes the tank seem more stable (in my mind at least!:icon_lol


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## knight007 (Feb 11, 2010)

I agree with you on timer being more reliable than sunlight...
but another factor is Geography.... if you live in an area which has a lot of sunny days
than this would work for you... however if you live in Vancouver..or Seattle...
do not depend on sunlight.

as for my update..I was quite pleased with the Miracle grow Organic potting mix
consisttency after I opened the bag...I'm using about 2/3 of 5 lb bag and I am letting
the mix sit for a day or two to air out the ammonia.


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