# Help with BBA



## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Even less light. 

Or more CO2.

Or both.

How are you getting the CO2 dissolved into the water? Reactor? Diffuser? Is it doing it efficiently? Because you can run many bubbles, but if you're not mixing it into the water, it's all for naught. Can you try running the lights at less than max intensity? In whatever you do, just keep repeating to yourself, "I don't have enough CO2 for the light I'm pushing" -- because usually that's what BBA (and most other algae) is saying so you need to work towards restoring that balance. Whether you decide to bring the light down to meet it or bring the CO2 up to meet that, will be a process you'll figure out depending on the ease of doing it. 

The other thing to remember is that BBA takes time to dissipate. If you just reduced your light last week, that's hardly any time to notice the difference. In the meantime, if you're desperate, it's also possible to spray/squirt the bba with a little bit of hydrogen peroxide during water changes (but be very careful of this that you don't end up using too much to kill off random things in the tank!!) so that you can kill them off and start with a clean slate and see if they come back. If you haven't fixed your root problem, you can be sure it'll come back. If you're not that desperate, you can leave them alone and keep working on achieving that light/co2 balance and the infestation should theoretically slow down. 

It doesn't hurt to add more stem plants too (some say this has some sort of allelopathic effect to control algae), but I think it helps to increase shade, thus, less lighting to the slow growers that BBA loves to pop up on. 

Finally, I'd look into the PPS mix that you have to make sure there's enough to feed the plants. If you're pushing too much light, you're stressing the plant to grow too fast without the proper CO2 and nutrients to support it. Again, reducing light here might work better. Plants that are not growing right tend to have algae growing on them. 

So, I hope I'm getting through ... even less light! 

All of this mumble jumble I just told you relies on the triple combo/grail of growing plants properly with a proper balance of lights/nutrients/co2. Chase many symptoms, but it all comes back to achieving the proper balance of growing your plants healthily. All else will start to fall into place.


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## skipcharlie (Dec 17, 2016)

BBA and almost all algae is a balancing issue combined with high detritus/organics. I think low oxygen as well can contribute. Fluctuating Co2 levels are a contributor because it confuses the plants and they stop growing. 

ADU aquascaping has some good videos on balancing issues and algae. Keep your tank/filter clean and get your plants pearling and the algae will disappear on its own. There is some kind of limiting factor keeping your plants from fully using the the nutrient load in the water. Tall tanks like a 45 gallon are extremely difficult to balance. I know i have a 65 gallon tall. 

Some things i did to help me

Regular dosing especially potassium
Adding a power-head to increase oxygen, 
Increasing the lighting intensity while reducing the photo-period. Got rid of my finnex and added kessil tuna suns. strict 8 hour photo period.
Letting substrate mature. Takes time.
Cleaning filters regularly.
When doing water changes try to kick up and suck out as much detritus as possible.

There are fish that can help as well if you basically starve them. Mollies Siamese algae eaters, Amano shrimp.

I don't think you have enough lighting/fast growing plants to warrant 2-3 bubbles per second. Maybe lower it? Get rid of the seista and use an 8 hour photo period. Plants take some time to actually wake up.

I dunno about wood. Wood may contribute to BBA/hair algae if it increases the organic load.

Also using an inert substrate is hurting you as well. There is a reason Amano and all those pro guys use aqua soil and those additives. It provides nutrients though the root system as opposed to the water column and more importantly the bacteria that aquasoil houses helps break down those pesky organics.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Can you fit your driftwood in a container to boil it? I have killed BBA off hardscape & equipment before, in boiling tapwater. I've also gotten rid of it on plants by putting them in a container with amano shrimp and no ferts for weeks- plant survived the starvation, BBA got weakened, really hungry shrimp ate it, and then I put the plant in a diff tank that had way lower light. It still crops up time to time in my main tank- I periodically have to trim off the leaves where it shows up on edges- seems to be oldest leaves. Seems also to show up when my nitrates are low, not sure why.

Hope some of that is a bit helpful.


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## JoeH11980 (Feb 11, 2015)

Thank you all so much for helping me out, I really appreciate it! Onto the next round of questions based on what I read above.

On the light/CO2 mix (from IPKiss), I was curious about this as well, which caused me to lower my photoperiod. I have read in multiple places though that plants need a minimum of 4 hours to get into photosynthesis, so that's why I had two periods of 4 hours. I'm wondering if two 3 hour periods will actually be detrimental. Now, with what skipcharlie said, I wonder if I should go to one 6-8 hour photoperiod and see what that does. The problem with that is that my work schedule keeps me out of the house from 7:30 in the morning until 6:30 at night most nights. I did the siesta so that I could enjoy the tank in the morning as well as the evening. If I make a change to a straight 6-8 hour period, would I notice a difference, for better or for worse, within a couple of weeks you think?

The other thing that I'm strongly considering doing is boiling my driftwood (JJ09). I do have the ability to do that, as I had already done that once when prepping it to go into the tank. I feel like I can clean the glass and other items in the tank pretty well, but I have no way of doing that to the wood obviously. Maybe I'll do that this weekend. 

I think I'll stick to increasing (slightly) the CO2, boiling the driftwood, and switching to only 1 photoperiod. I'd like to see how that goes and if I'm still having issues, I'll go from there. 

Last couple of questions, I promise  I used to never vacuum my gravel (the tank's been running for 2.5 years) because I had read that the detritus was beneficial for the plants. However, when I started getting the algae, I checked nitrates and they were high, so now I vacuum each time. I've been doing that for the last 2-3 months, so I'm thinking I have that under control. I do have a TDS meter though and have noticed that the spread between my tap water reading and aquarium reading is quite large. Finally, I've been wanting to go to a sand bottom, but have been nervous about putting my fish through that. Maybe I need to look into aquasoil capped with some sand?

Thanks again for all of your help, you don't know how much I appreciate it. I have a great LFS here in the area, but they don't really do much with planted tanks. I also don't know anyone else with a planted tank, so this is my only place for advice.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Just try it all! what have you got to lose!  Be mindful of what you're trying and think of how it relates to the all important balance that you need to maintain and yea, a few weeks should show a difference. If you can't adjust the time, since you have a Current light, can't you adjust the brightness? I had a vast improvement by dropping the intensity. As for enjoying the tank, I, also, am out of the house most of the day, so I ended up switching might light period to roughly from 2pm-8pm. Yea, I miss the morning viewing, but I'm too busy getting ready to appreciate it anyway.

Here's where I'm going to show you another rabbit hole. Because you have a Current light, there are threads dedicated to building raspberry pi and/or arduino controllers that can make your light more intelligent by simulating your presence and pressing the remote all the time. For example, I can and currently have set my light to come on at 2, but its only at a brightness of 0 and it slowly brightens to 85 by 3pm and around 6pm, it starts a slow fade from 85 back to none all the way to 8pm. There's so many ways to play it when you have a controller. Here's a link for the one I'm using: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...ading-ecoxotic-e-series-light-controller.html. If you go with this particular one, it might be hard to source some of the parts nowadays, and you'll have to find the right settings to switch the remote codes to a Satellite Pro. It mentions it somewhere in that long thread. There's also many other similar types of controllers if you go into the DIY section of this forum. So take your time and check them all out before you make a hasty decision.


I 'still' don't vacuum my gravel because of said benefit to my plants, but admittedly, the mulm is getting a little annoying when I trim and stuff. I'm not telling you to 'not' vacuum, because it might be, or is working for you, but rather just sharing that when you find your balance, it might not be what another person's is. So it's important to not get too caught up in the differences of what people might be suggesting. Most of us, aside from those pros who do this for a living, can only share what worked for us, but it's up to you to make sense of how it might apply to your tank. 


As for the sand bottom, I don't have much advice for that. Perhaps you can start a new thread in the substrate section. However, I have observed and currently do use aquasoil, or a variant of it, alone. No sand cap. I think sand caps are usually reserved for regular potting soil or mineralized top soil -- usually something that isn't already treated to stay in its from. Aquasoil is already fired to stay in its beady glory.


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## JoeH11980 (Feb 11, 2015)

ipkiss said:


> Just try it all! what have you got to lose!  Be mindful of what you're trying and think of how it relates to the all important balance that you need to maintain and yea, a few weeks should show a difference. If you can't adjust the time, since you have a Current light, can't you adjust the brightness? I had a vast improvement by dropping the intensity. As for enjoying the tank, I, also, am out of the house most of the day, so I ended up switching might light period to roughly from 2pm-8pm. Yea, I miss the morning viewing, but I'm too busy getting ready to appreciate it anyway.
> 
> Here's where I'm going to show you another rabbit hole. Because you have a Current light, there are threads dedicated to building raspberry pi and/or arduino controllers that can make your light more intelligent by simulating your presence and pressing the remote all the time. For example, I can and currently have set my light to come on at 2, but its only at a brightness of 0 and it slowly brightens to 85 by 3pm and around 6pm, it starts a slow fade from 85 back to none all the way to 8pm. There's so many ways to play it when you have a controller. Here's a link for the one I'm using: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...ading-ecoxotic-e-series-light-controller.html. If you go with this particular one, it might be hard to source some of the parts nowadays, and you'll have to find the right settings to switch the remote codes to a Satellite Pro. It mentions it somewhere in that long thread. There's also many other similar types of controllers if you go into the DIY section of this forum. So take your time and check them all out before you make a hasty decision.
> 
> ...


It's funny that you say this, because I did try a few additional things this morning. I actually knocked down the intensity on the light. I've had it on the highest intensity for quite a while now, so I took it down to one of the programs that sprinkles in simulated passing cloud cover. Hopefully that helps. 

And to answer your question from your original response (I was dead tired last night and missed some things), I run an Atomic diffuser, which is situated just to the right of the spray bar outflow from my Eheim classic filter. In order to better disperse said bubbles, I put my Hydor circ fan back in the tank to push the bubbles to the other side of the tank. I positioned the fan about halfway down the aquarium, hoping to move the bubbles before they reach the surface. 

This weekend, I'm going to copy your idea of going with lights from 2-8 PM. Like you said, I'm too busy in the morning to enjoy them anyway. I'm also going to boil my driftwood to get rid of the bulk of the BBA. I've heard of the hydrogen peroxide treatment, but am leary of killing plants or livestock, so I'd like to avoid that. I'm also interested in switching over to the aquasoil. I hadn't really heard of that substrate, so I was assuming it was like soil, but it looks more like fine gravel. I'm going to try and get my hands on some of that in the coming weeks. I'll do some research in the substrate section on preparing the substrate for use. I know some of those require a ton of cleaning. I think the sand would look good, but I could see it being a pain when trying to replant and generally any time you have to dig around. I also like the idea of the homemade controller, as I have seen that in a lot of threads. I don't feel like I have the skills to do something like that though. 

Thanks again for your reply!

How do you all feel about Eco-complete? That was the one I had in mind last year and just never moved forward with. Looks pretty similar to aqua soil.


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## Vinster8108 (Sep 1, 2016)

What kind of filtration are you using? I noticed that increasing my water flow throughout the tank decreased my algae issues significantly. I was running two current satellite +'s on my 40b(now 75g), with a HOB filter. Upgraded to a fluval 406 canister and most all my GSA and BBA disappeared. My BBA wasn't quite as bad tho. 

Also, here's another forum about LED light controllers: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1122594-custom-24-7-led-light-cycle-any-led-ir-remote.html (personal favorite, as it's my forum lol)


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

JoeH11980 said:


> It's funny that you say this, because I did try a few additional things this morning. I actually knocked down the intensity on the light. I've had it on the highest intensity for quite a while now, so I took it down to one of the programs that sprinkles in simulated passing cloud cover. Hopefully that helps.
> 
> And to answer your question from your original response (I was dead tired last night and missed some things), I run an Atomic diffuser, which is situated just to the right of the spray bar outflow from my Eheim classic filter. In order to better disperse said bubbles, I put my Hydor circ fan back in the tank to push the bubbles to the other side of the tank. I positioned the fan about halfway down the aquarium, hoping to move the bubbles before they reach the surface.
> 
> ...


Oh yea, I do like that passing cloud cover setting too. I usually do that when I'm working late on the water change and don't want it blasting light or have guests over and want to show the tank off longer. 

Might I interest you into looking at a reactor so that the bubbles get dissolved more efficiently? More work, I know. Just take it slow. Put it on the to do list later. It took many years for me to achieve what some do in a month so I know how that slow progress goes. 

I understand about the peroxide. I was hesitant even recommending it, but it did do the job while I struggled through my BBA phase. Couldn't really boil my plants.  I tried the famed 1-2 peroxide/excel punch, and felt it was too 'scorched earth' approach to repeat. So based on that method, I calculated the peroxide that was "safe" to use and as long as that amount lasted, I squirted directly on the BBA with an eye dropper wherever I can during water changes. It was gratifying to see the burnt, pinkish red BBA as it was dying off. 



JoeH11980 said:


> How do you all feel about Eco-complete? That was the one I had in mind last year and just never moved forward with. Looks pretty similar to aqua soil.


Aquasoil and friends are supposedly soil that's been oven fired and shaped to little beads. Eco-complete I think I read was based on volcanic rock? I don't think either is a 'wrong' choice. As long as the soil can hold nutrients for the plants. Here's a nice thread that might give you some insight. 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/29-substrate/1077401-ada-aquasoil-vs-eco-complete-vs-dirt.html. I chose an aquasoil clone because my LFS (a real planted aquarium store!) highly recommended it and well, I did like the idea of planting in "soil." I will say that it's a little too rounded to hold plants sometimes. So during rescaping, I have to retry quite a few times to stick my stems back in. I think I had an easier time with rougher stuff like flourite. I suspect eco complete is rougher so that would apply too. Other than that, I love the look of the aquasoil types and what it does. If you do choose it or something similar, be aware that it might or will release ammonia, drop ph, and all those other things that people complain about so read up on that first. Oh, and one other thing, if you're going to change out your substrate, I'd recommend not layering it like I did on top of something else because I didn't want to buy enough of my aquasoil clone (read: being cheap). Now, I have all sorts of mixed in substrate looks and I can't be bothered to separate them all back out. Hmm. Come to think of it, this would probably preclude me from going to a soil and sand cap route too.


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## JoeH11980 (Feb 11, 2015)

Vinster, I'm running an Eheim Classic 350. I don't have any flow control unfortunately. And I also read about increasing flow rate with a circ fan or powerhead, so I attempted that with a small (maybe too small) circ fan. I ran it for a couple months to no avail. I did just put it back in though to help with CO2 dispersion. 

Also, forget what I said about Eco-Complete up above. After doing some research on here, it looks like most people hate that. I don't have Aqua Soil readily available here, but I think my LFS carries Fluval Stratum. I may look into that.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Vinster8108 said:


> Also, here's another forum about LED light controllers: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1122594-custom-24-7-led-light-cycle-any-led-ir-remote.html (personal favorite, as it's my forum lol)



Very nice, doing this with a raspberry pi. Thanks for your work. I'll have to look into this when my arduino one breaks and I can't revive it.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

JoeH11980 said:


> Also, forget what I said about Eco-Complete up above. After doing some research on here, it looks like most people hate that. I don't have Aqua Soil readily available here, but I think my LFS carries Fluval Stratum. I may look into that.


Use whatever you like or want to use, it's your tank. I have a mix of Eco-Complete, small gravel, Flourite and FloraMax in my tanks. The plants have yet to complain. I don't understand the hype about Aqua Soil. It needs to be cycled before you can use it, I don't like the look of it, ect... 

There is nothing wrong with vacuuming your tank. You don't have to spend a lot of time vacuuming the whole thing, just in the areas where fish food and poop tend to collect due the the lack of flow or whatever the reason. I vacuum my tanks where food tends to land the most which is the front weekly. The rest of the tank (s) get done over the course of a month. There is no for this, it's just habit and how I do it. 

I would suggest getting a handle on this problem though before swapping out your substrate. Swapping out substrate messes with a tank as much of the bacteria in a tank lives on the substrate and capping is just as bad. If you want to swap it out, break up the tank visually into quarters and only do a quarter at a time. This will help prevent throwing the tanks' cycle completely off, although water testing should be done often through the process as you'll want to deal with ammonia spikes should they rear their ugly heads.


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## JoeH11980 (Feb 11, 2015)

Would you still say to only change 25% at a time if I have a canister filter that is very well established? I would think that the beneficial bacteria in there would suffice, but maybe not.

Also, I went to my LFS last night, and one of the things they recommended is cutting back my daily dosing. As I mentioned before, I dose PPS every day. However, my tank is not heavily planted, so I'm wondering if it would be wise to cut that schedule back to 2-3x per week. Thoughts? I did buy a couple more plants to help use up the nutrients as well.

Also, I found out that my LFS no longer carries stratum, but instead carries Seachem Flourite Dark. I'm thinking of switching over to this if I decide to move forward. I'm assuming that even if I change substrates, I'll still want to maintain my PPS schedule, correct?


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

I don't want to simply tell you to NOT cut back on dosing, because I'm not running your tank and am not close to the specifics of it. Instead, I'd suggest you to
take a look at this link : 



A Primer to Planted Tanks 

Ignoring the specifics about WPG rules about lighting (the principle still applies), the article lies out the basis of what we try to achieve. A proper balance. Hopefully, it'll give you some guidance in all your future choices. What the old timers HAVE figured out is that in a planted tank, a little bit of excess nutrients is not going to cause algae.

As to how it applies to you in this case, unless you miscalculated your dosing amounts, I'd say your dosing is already 'less' by planted tank standards -- especially since my original suspicion is that you had too much light to begin with. I was worried you were dosing too little. You did say you have a 'lightly planted' tank, so maybe it'll be okay. But, I can't guarantee that my analysis is right, so let the "couple of weeks" with less light ride out and see if it helped. If not, try the other thing. Remember, don't make so many changes at once because you might have sabotaged the change that worked!


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## JoeH11980 (Feb 11, 2015)

ipkiss said:


> I don't want to simply tell you to NOT cut back on dosing, because I'm not running your tank and am not close to the specifics of it. Instead, I'd suggest you to
> take a look at this link :
> 
> 
> ...


I'm glad you brought up this link. I've actually read through it already prior to starting my planted tank, which is my first. And you bringing this up is actually reminding me of something that has always been something of a mystery to me. I do not exactly understand how people can operate their planted aquarium, see an issue, correctly diagnose the cause of said issue, and make changes accordingly. Here's what I mean...

I decide I want a planted tank so I buy the light and the CO2 system to make it happen. I then settle on PPS dosing because I felt like it was a relatively straight forward approach to making sure all the nutrients I need are in the tank. I understand that a balance needs to exists to optimize plant growth which then prevents algae from growing. However, I have no clue how to determine whether I'm in balance or not because of *SO *much conflicting information I find online. I read posts where people are tweaking their dosing mixtures to add more of a certain nutrient. In my mind, I think "how would that person know to increase that particular nutrient." The easy variables to change are lighting and CO2, so that's what I started playing with after getting my first invasion of BBA 6 months ago. But I don't know *HOW* to change them to fix my problem. I asked about adding substrate that can help growth, thinking it is a lack of nutrients that's causing my problem, but then I hear from my LFS that I should cut back on my PPS dosing, which contradicts that. I look at your response in the second post of this thread and decide to lower my light level, but then I hear from another poster (no offense to either by the way, just illustrating my difficulty) to go to an 8 hour photo period. Then my LFS tells me to just stay with the two 4 hour photo periods. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is how do you know what to adjust, and how do you know in which direction to adjust? Maybe I'm really making this more complicated than it really is (always possible with me :nerd and I just really need to treat my light as the gas pedal and back off some. I supposed this is just the hard part of the process that takes time and patience, both of which I'm severely lacking in :smile2:.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

JoeH11980 said:


> Would you still say to only change 25% at a time if I have a canister filter that is very well established? I would think that the beneficial bacteria in there would suffice, but maybe not.
> 
> Also, I went to my LFS last night, and one of the things they recommended is cutting back my daily dosing. As I mentioned before, I dose PPS every day. However, my tank is not heavily planted, so I'm wondering if it would be wise to cut that schedule back to 2-3x per week. Thoughts? I did buy a couple more plants to help use up the nutrients as well.
> 
> Also, I found out that my LFS no longer carries stratum, but instead carries Seachem Flourite Dark. I'm thinking of switching over to this if I decide to move forward. I'm assuming that even if I change substrates, I'll still want to maintain my PPS schedule, correct?


You have a lot more surface area with substrate than in a filter. Removing it all at once will mess with the tank. Yes there is lots of bacteria in your filter, but it doesn't have the same volume as substrate. 

The bacteria that lives in the substrate is also responsible for breaking down fish food and waste. If you remove it, it has to re-establish which means your plants have to also settle in again. Adding plants can help, but it depends on the plants. If they are slow growers, they are not going to help much because they grow slowly. If you were to buy plants that grew at a faster pace, and they are the kind that are planted in the substrate and have next to nothing for roots, roots take time to grow. 

Flourite is fine, it's really dusty though, so keep that in mind. Don't believe the BS on the bag that says it requires little rinsing. It requires a lot of rinsing and even then you'll still find pockets of dust. 

I'm not a fan of overfeeding newly set up tanks. It is just one more thing adding stuff to the water column that doesn't need to be there until the plants are established. New plants with no roots or a few poorly grown roots do not transform overnight. There are many around here that disagree with me about this and that's fine. If you think you're feeding the plants well and what is going into the tank is being used, test your tank. If you are getting a constant high reading of nitrates, you'll know that what you're dosing is too high. You do not need to be dosing your tank daily. I'd cut back to once a week until you start seeing new growth at a decent pace.

Lighting: There is no benefit for you to leave the lights on for more than 4 hours at this point. Algae needs two things: Light and food. You've got lots of plant food going in that isn't being used. Your tank needs time to establish. Excess food combined with too much light means more algae.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

JoeH11980 said:


> I'm glad you brought up this link. I've actually read through it already prior to starting my planted tank, which is my first. And you bringing this up is actually reminding me of something that has always been something of a mystery to me. I do not exactly understand how people can operate their planted aquarium, see an issue, correctly diagnose the cause of said issue, and make changes accordingly. Here's what I mean...
> 
> I decide I want a planted tank so I buy the light and the CO2 system to make it happen. I then settle on PPS dosing because I felt like it was a relatively straight forward approach to making sure all the nutrients I need are in the tank. I understand that a balance needs to exists to optimize plant growth which then prevents algae from growing. However, I have no clue how to determine whether I'm in balance or not because of *SO *much conflicting information I find online. I read posts where people are tweaking their dosing mixtures to add more of a certain nutrient. In my mind, I think "how would that person know to increase that particular nutrient." The easy variables to change are lighting and CO2, so that's what I started playing with after getting my first invasion of BBA 6 months ago. But I don't know *HOW* to change them to fix my problem. I asked about adding substrate that can help growth, thinking it is a lack of nutrients that's causing my problem, but then I hear from my LFS that I should cut back on my PPS dosing, which contradicts that. I look at your response in the second post of this thread and decide to lower my light level, but then I hear from another poster (no offense to either by the way, just illustrating my difficulty) to go to an 8 hour photo period. Then my LFS tells me to just stay with the two 4 hour photo periods.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is how do you know what to adjust, and how do you know in which direction to adjust? Maybe I'm really making this more complicated than it really is (always possible with me :nerd and I just really need to treat my light as the gas pedal and back off some. I supposed this is just the hard part of the process that takes time and patience, both of which I'm severely lacking in :smile2:.


Here's some of the more common tenets (current beliefs?) for your quoted issues... 

you're out of balance because you have algae. I don't think many people will argue with that one

how do guys know what to tweak? well, unless you're a pro, most don't know what to tweak. It's all an experimentation. when you look at this stuff long enough, you sort of get a knack on howto filter out bad advice (hopefully, I didn't fall into that category  ). For nutrient tweaking, this is but ONE of the starting points. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...arameters/98529-plant-deficiency-diagram.html. But even with that, there are many arguments online on what constitutes what deficiency, and arguments on whether having too much micros will block macro uptake or be toxic, etc. There's guys like burr740 that has amazingly stunning tanks and still tweak their fert mixes. I'm still tweaking my fert mixes to avoid some green spot algae. Some tweaks are easier. People agree that more phosphates and more CO2 should cut down green spot algae, so I follow that. Some are harder. For now, don't get caught up in that. It's easy to fall too deep. Just know that you need to feed your plants. So for you, your first job is to figure out too much or too little. Break your tasks down to simpler ones. Then go from there. Those guys who know exactly what they're tweaking, they've done it for a while or they're experimenting too based on what they've read.

I personally think you've followed the right path on choosing to focus on light and co2. Of the two, light is easier. Cut down the light. That's easy. Increase the CO2, that's quite a bit harder. It's not simply slapping on a CO2 tank, putting in 3BPS and done. There are SO many things to consider and there's NO perfectly accurate AND economical method to test how much CO2 is in there. Drop checkers? Inaccurate. PH test? Inaccurate. But yet, despite all of those hindrances, it's been browbeaten into me that CO2 is ultimately of utmost importance, unless you cut down the light to low tech levels. Speaking of low tech levels, many people have discovered that BBA usually doesn't grow in low tech tanks -- or many algae for that matter. I, too, out of desperation, have reproduced plantbrain's experiment where he took a BBA infested plant to a low tech tank and the BBA just went away. Unless you got a finicky plant, it can usually handle pretty low light, so this may be a way to 'reset' your lighting parameters. Go so low that the BBA stops and then slowly edge back up from there. 

The substrate problem is a little harder. I probably failed substrate theories as I've mostly ignored them. Other than making sure my substrate is capable of absorbing nutrients for the plants to use, I never went too much beyond that. Perhaps it may have shortened my journey if I did. How does this apply to you? Well, if you find it easy enough, do it. It'll just be one more tweak in your process. I hope you find some compelling evidence on the forums to support your thoughts either way.

There's conflicting information because well, all of this isn't exact science. It's not Newton's laws that can be reproduced and proven. Different theories have come and gone. The new paradigm is that the excess nutrient do NOT lead to algae, but there are people who are not so willing to adopt to newer thoughts. After all, there was a period when people said eggs had too much cholesterol, now they're backtracking and saying eggs are good for you after all. How do you trust this sort of stuff? These are harder problems to figure out. Lucky for you, there are many people who run excess nutrients and still manage to avoid algae. At least you can see that with your eyes. and thats with running EI -- not even PPS. While we're on that topic, neither 'system' is set in stone either, they're just starting points. Like you said, guys run PPS and realize something is short, so they add a little more. Guys like me started with EI and read about micro toxicity and go, well, maybe I don't need to go so heavy. I also get lazy about water changes, maybe I don't need to go so heavy, so I back off on the doses all around. These are things we just peruse on the forum and find interesting, pick a side in the argument, and make changes accordingly to try. 

I'd also argue that most LFS are out of their element when it comes to planted tanks -- but that's just my prejudice talking. Unless they have an amazing planted tank that rivals the members on here, I'm finding it hard pressed to believe them. What I've discovered is that any LFS with a planted tank is either aware of plantedtank, barrreport, or something similar and have been applying similar principles being practiced on plantedtank. High light? you better bet there's enough co2 in there to cause pearling. The way their plants are growing? They've got to be fertilizing. But guess what? They've got or they fight algae too! Makes me feel a little better. If the LFS is a well known chain and can't even sell me something a better fertilizer than leafzone or flourish comprehensive, I would take their thoughts with grains of salt. Conflicting advice from fellow members are harder to sift through. Usually it's stuff we rightfully have experienced, so we try to share. The trick here is to find the right advice that fits your situation. 

Heh. Buddy, I feel your pain. In the time I fought BBA, I easily passed 2 years. I went through all of that self doubt myself. If you take a glance at my journal, you'll see my odyssey to get where I am too. And yes, it's not easy for some of us. It shall all pass if you just hang in there. What can I tell you after what I went through? Pick an idea and stick with it. Leave the tank alone while you're testing it out. Find some other hobby to divert your attention. After a while, you can come back and say .. oh, well, now I see what happened. I wonder what caused that. And slowly, thick headed people like us finally learn what not to do. In the end, yes, I try to remind myself of that analogy all the time. Back off the gas pedal. When you do that, there's more time to make adjustments. The tank becomes a bit more forgiving. In the meantime, do all that you can to push that CO2. I did all sorts of optimizations. I went from a diffuser to a reactor. I went that reactor to a better reactor. I learned that if you ripple the surface of the tank, you can aerate the water and have a more stable CO2 period, push it higher, AND keep the fish alive. Other than killing fish, no one has argued to put in less CO2, I dont think. So when I figured that out, I pushed even more. Now, I went to an even better reactor in hopes of getting a better dissolution rate. All so that I can get that extra bubble per second in. I played with nutrients too, but it was more from a standpoint of my plants not performing healthily. Slowly, I started to follow the other axiom -- grow plants. Stop focusing on eliminating algae. Why do I want more CO2? To grow plants. Why do I fertilize, To grow plants. Why the light? To grow the plants. Too much light? I stopped thinking in terms that it led to algae, but more in the term that it's stressing the plant. So it hits me.. OH! right, gas pedal analogy. I'm not or I'm incapable of feeding it enough CO2 and ferts. So I lower the light to compensate as that's the only thing I can do.. somewhere, along the way, the BBA receded. It wasn't overnight. It .. just, stopped multiplying. I had the leftovers, and I let them fizzle out. I had a massive bunch hanging on the filter output, but I ignored it. I didn't take it off as an experiment. It's been said that BBA won't grow on healthy plants, so I decided to try it. Sure enough, the ones on the filter output never left, but yet, the plants never got it! That aligns with the experience of others.. that when things are working, your tank doesn't need to be spotless to avoid algae. 

I get it tho. When you're in the thick of it, any advice seems good, and you're willing to try anything. If it bothers you that much, like I said before, and if it makes sense to you and your tank, try it. Just be a little patient for changes to take effect, make good observations, and learn from the mistakes. Yea, you see me here spewing stuff, but there was a lot of things done. There's some other guys who get it on their first go, but like you, I'm not one of them, and probably there's many others like us. There's so many variables in everyone's tanks. We tell you things, but we sometimes forget to tell you of the times we fall down too. Check out the journals section. You'll get a better insight on everyone's troubles/successes/nuances/thought processes there. After all this, you ask how do I KNOW what to adjust? Well, the answer is I don't and figuring it out is supposed to be part of the fun. So just keep chugging along and enjoy the ride. It IS after all, a hobby! roud:


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

While it is great to talk about how Tom took plants covered with BBA and it magically disappeared, there is always failure to mention A) How long Tom has been in the hobby B) There is never mention that when Tom does these experiments, they are never done in a brand new tank. This is one of my peeves around here. Only small bits of info are revealed which leads to newbies becoming completely frustrated because they don't understand why one person or group of people can do something and they can't. I can't call it lying, but is misleading. 

Does a newbie need to be tinkering with iron levels in a tank with a handful of plants when they don't understand why they are doing it? No, they don't. That comes later and with experience. Does a newbie need to understand what a microbal bed is and what purpose it serves? Maybe not, but it is helpful knowledge if they want to understand how a tanks functions as tanks have many 'moving' parts. 
@JoeH11980 Don't try to take all this information in overnight. It will make your head explode. Start with the basics and don't worry about the rest. The knowledge and know-how will come with time. Despite what people say around here and on other forums, nobody starts in this hobby knowing everything. Every tank is different. Nobody has the exact same water parameters with all the exact same stuff in it, ect... Find somebody that acts like a virtual teacher that you like and explains things in a way that you understand. As time goes on and you gain more confidence, you'll be able to tweak and play around with things to see if whatever the situation improves or not. 

I'm a big fan of Dave from ADU. He's a teacher, not a preacher. I've never had problems with any advice he has given, right down to why a lower KH is better than a higher one in a planted tank. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLofw2pWRKY


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

What helped me most was taking detailed notes - tank journal. What I changed, when, how much. At one point I was really frustrated with my tank so I looked back at all my pictures to see when it was doing better- and then looked at what I had changed with the tank _the week before_ that slight improvement. Because in my low-tech tank the response of the plant often lags behind when something actually gets altered. Then I tried to go in the same direction of what had made an improvement. I asked for a lot of suggestions, but it was pretty much: change something, see if it got better, change something else, ditto. I was mostly adjusting lighting duration/intensity and then nitrates (how much I dose compared to what the tank tests at end of week) and later it was how much of each macro or micro. It literally took me an entire year to get my tank from an algae-ridden mess of poorly growing sad plants to something healthy. Even now if I make a mistake or something happens like a fish dies or I feed too much- it can take a lot longer to get things back into balance than it did to throw it off track.


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## JoeH11980 (Feb 11, 2015)

Thank you all for your tips, I really appreciate it!!! I'm swamped today at work, but just wanted to let you know that I appreciate all of you taking time out of your day to help me out, it means a lot. You all hit on something that makes sense to me. I'll find some time over the weekend to respond, but I think what you've told me is to just be patient and not expect perfection right away. I also need to keep in mind not to try too much at once like Ipkiss mentioned. It's easy to make 10 changes, but it's harder to evaluate what's working and what isn't when I do this. 

So far, here's what I've tried (will be trying this weekend):

Kicked up my CO2 slightly.
Introduced my small circulation fan to try and get more consistent CO2 dissolution.
Took lighting back from 2x4 hours to 2x3 hours. On this, I'm still toying with doing one 6 hour period.
Going to take my driftwood, which has a ton of BBA on it, and boil it. My hope here is that I can get a fresh start and can monitor my progress a bit easier.

That's all I'm going to change right now. I really like what Ipkiss said about my LFS. They don't have a lot of knowledge of planted tanks. The one guy there that helps with planted tanks seems to know less than I do even. 

Thanks again!


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Smooch said:


> I'm a big fan of Dave from ADU. He's a teacher, not a preacher. I've never had problems with any advice he has given, right down to why a lower KH is better than a higher one in a planted tank. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLofw2pWRKY


Hahaha.. I like his #5! Very applicable to the current discussion!


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## JoeH11980 (Feb 11, 2015)

Well, over the weekend, I did most of what I wanted to accomplish. The one thing that was unexpected was that I ended up removing my driftwood. I think I really just have too big of a piece for my aquarium, and the ceramic tile it's screwed too just takes up too much valuable real estate for planting more plants, so I went ahead and removed it. I replaced it with something smaller that I can still attach my crypts and anubias to. I also added more plant mass by picking up some hygrophila and myriophyllum. Looking at my tank now, I really feel that I've got a good amount of plants in there, so I think I've got that part addressed.

I also vacuumed my gravel thoroughly since I was in there digging around a bunch, as well as scrubbing every bit of BBA off the glass and leaves of plants that I could find. I feel like I've eliminated at least 90% of it, and should be at a good baseline to evaluate how well my changes work.

Other changes include ratcheting up CO2 a bit, the 2x3 hour photo period, dialing back the light intensity, and cutting back on PPS dosing to 2 or 3 times per week. I think I'm going to stick with these changes for a month or two and see how that goes. It helps that I'm in the middle of my son's baseball season, which has a serious impact on free time that I would have to tinker with the tank 

My plan is to evaluate where I'm at after a month or two and probably switch to something other than an inert substrate. I wanted to do that last weekend, but I felt like I didn't have enough knowledge of what to switch to, so I held off. I am also really wanting to install a reactor for my CO2 instead of the atomic diffusers I got from GLA, but I wasn't able to decide on one that seemed like a really good buy. Any recommendations you have would be greatly appreciated!

Again, I want to thank you all for your time and input on this. I think I'll do the journal in some fashion, whether that be on here or on my computer. Just having that information available to help evaluate the tweaks I make would be a lot of help!


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I don't use CO2, so I have no advice. 

Good idea to wait a month to see what happens. People tend not to do that which leads to more problems.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

If you're into tinkering, build your own reactor! Cerges OR Griggs style. 

Cerges style
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/110100-cerges-reactor-diy-inline-co2-reactor.html

I must admit, I'm partial to the cerges style if only because it got popular when I was researching it. Now, guys have improved upon the griggs style and there seem to be some mass motion to adapt that instead. I think the biggest advantage that I've noticed is that the griggs style can handle more flow because you can choose the size of inlet and outlet ports whereas the cerges style is usually limited by the inlet/outlet ports of the water filter you buy -- and then you have to step up/down your hosing with adapters. Other considerations are more aesthetic or practical in nature. i.e. mounting, finding parts, that sort of thing.

Here's a griggs style one to be fair:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/985954-grigg-reactor.html

otherwise, if you want to go prebuilt, I saw this sera flore that a fellow member uses 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...planted-setup-co2-questions.html#post10026018


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