# Trying out Citric acid and Baking soda CO2



## Nestle_

can you give us details on your mixture measurements, and such? I'm kind of interested in trying this as I liked diy yeast co2 minus the mess, smell, and unreliablility.

does the co2 going right into the intake of the eheim cause any issues with the pump? I've heard this has happened with others and really kills the pump.
Thanks!


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## jrill

Sure.
Bottle A which is 200 grams of citric acid in 600ml of water.
Bottle B is 200 grams of baking soda in 200ml of water. In the coming weeks I may try increasing those amounts 50% across the board to see what happens.
With the eheim and co2 up the intake I have not had any issues unless I have tried to push a lot more co2. A few years ago when I ran a pressure system through an eheim I had to switch to a reactor if I needed 3 to 4 bps, if I remember right. You will know right away if its too much because the impeller will make that rattle noise. When I hear that I figure that's more gas than I want to push through. 2 to 2.5 bps is working just fine in my 2211. I don't see any bubbles coming out the output hose so the dissolve rate must be pretty high. For media in the filter I have it full of all blue course pads with one fine white pad.
I heat bent a piece of rigid tubing 90 degrees and drilled a hole into the side of the intake screen tube to get the co2 in.


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## burr740

Nice thread, will be following this..


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## BruceF

What is the form and the cost of the citric acid?


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## jrill

The citric acid I bought on Amazon. Milliard 100% pure food grade citric acid 5lbs. $18.00. Free shipping with prime. Might be a better price out there. I have to admit I did not shop around a lot. The backing soda I just picked up at Walmart. I think it was under $10 for the large arm and hammer box.


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## Hoppy

Would it be cheaper to run this with acetic acid (vinegar)? Or, what about swimming pool hydrochloric acid? (Except that hydrochloric acid is much more dangerous to handle.)


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## Dead2fall

Hoppy said:


> Would it be cheaper to run this with acetic acid (vinegar)? Or, what about swimming pool hydrochloric acid? (Except that hydrochloric acid is much more dangerous to handle.)


Good point, I've always wondered why this is only done with citric acid myself. But would vinegar be cheaper in the long run vs 5lb of powder that you can put in solution? God knows how long 5lb will last lol.


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## jrill

I have read a few references to using vinegar. Arguments against seem to range from more expensive to more volatile. I decided to stay with the citric acid because its cheap and the unit I purchased came with starter powders. Also all the units sold seem geared towards the citric acid.


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## BruceF

Seems like the cost would be minimal. I suppose one would compare it to sugar. But you have more ability to regulate the co2 with this set up, right?


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## jrill

BruceF said:


> Seems like the cost would be minimal. I suppose one would compare it to sugar. But you have more ability to regulate the co2 with this set up, right?


I believe that to be correct. I feel I can regulate it as well as I did with a pressure system. Starting Saturday I am going to try turning it off during lights out.


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## burr740

Can you post a close up of the needle valve or whatever it is? Im curious how that works exactly. Also the brass ball valve, you installed that, right? So I assume the unit has some kind of pressure release? Close up of that too if you dont mind.


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## jrill

Needle valve










And here is the release valve


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## jrill

burr740 said:


> Can you post a close up of the needle valve or whatever it is? Im curious how that works exactly. Also the brass ball valve, you installed that, right? So I assume the unit has some kind of pressure release? Close up of that too if you dont mind.


And yes I put in the ball valve. Stuff I had and the valve from ace hardware. I thought about using the two little fishes ball valve, $10 on Amazon but I was at ace so,[emoji6]


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## burr740

Thanks. Can you adjust the pressure release to open at a certain level, or is it fixed?


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## jrill

It's fixed.


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## hemptation88

How did your plants do when you were running it 24/7? What will happen to the plants when you crank down your bps and run it only a portion of the day? Still trying to decide if its even worth getting the solenoid on a diy setup.


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## jrill

hemptation88 said:


> How did your plants do when you were running it 24/7? What will happen to the plants when you crank down your bps and run it only a portion of the day? Still trying to decide if its even worth getting the solenoid on a diy setup.


Plants look fine 24/7. I will start turning it off just to extend the mix life. Was looking on eBay and found a solenoid for under $15 so I am tempted. The reasons for turning it off at night with this setup are the same as pressurized.


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## fish jihad

If at some point point your needle valve fails or get hold a correct pressure i have an alternative. Its tedious but works. You simply alter the amount of water in your citric acid solution. My recipe is 2.5 cups of water ( close to your 600ml). So i added a 3 cups instead, and reaction slowed to a crawl. 2.75 cups was a little better. 
I also tried 2 bottles at 2.5 cups on a one diffuser. That drained both bottles in 1.5 days and sent my Ph down to 6.4... so then i did 2.75 cups and that seemed ok.
Point is play with the amount of water in your acid and you get varying reaction rates


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## jrill

fish jihad said:


> If at some point point your needle valve fails or get hold a correct pressure i have an alternative. Its tedious but works. You simply alter the amount of water in your citric acid solution. My recipe is 2.5 cups of water ( close to your 600ml). So i added a 3 cups instead, and reaction slowed to a crawl. 2.75 cups was a little better.
> I also tried 2 bottles at 2.5 cups on a one diffuser. That drained both bottles in 1.5 days and sent my Ph down to 6.4... so then i did 2.75 cups and that seemed ok.
> Point is play with the amount of water in your acid and you get varying reaction rates


Interesting. I was wondering what would happen if you increased all ingredients by 50%. If that might increase output time.


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## Nestle_

thanks everyone, lots of great stuff here to try.

doubling the amount of materials might make it last longer, but it also might become more volatile and not work well to turn off at night and build up the pressure, just thinking that it might be to much pressure depending on what you're using for bottles/lids.

for the diy co2 cap/bubble counter combo thing, how has it been? I've looked at them for over a year but never pulled the trigger on buying on one. do you suggest its worth a try?


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## jrill

So yesterday I recharged the bottles with fresh citric acid and backing soda. I have had the unit in operation now for two weeks and running it at 2 bps for 24/7 I have only been able to go 7 days before its empty and co2 production stops. To stay with this unit I feel I need to see two weeks on a charge which was how long I would go with yeast. 
With the at least a two week goal in mind I started using the shut off ball valve I installed last night. When I turned off the valve yesterday the pressure gauge was reading just in the green at 1 lb. I was wondering what would happen over night and if I would awake to burst bottles. This morning all was fine and the pressure gauge was still at 1. It would seem that the reports I had read werr indeed correct and if you close the valve the two bottles obtain even pressure so the process stops and does not move citric acid from bottle A to bottle B. 
When I opened the valve this morning I expected a rush of co2 that may overwhelm my eheim but that was not the case either. After a few moments the bubble count climbed back to where it had been yesterday.
So far I am very pleased with the performance of the pressure gauge and the needle valve. As to the question if I think its worth getting I'll let you know in two weeks. If I can get two weeks or more between recharge then absolutely its worth it. Much more control over yeast, cheaper than a pressure system. Buy hey, if you have the cash go with a full on pressure system.


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## Maryland Guppy

I would think vinegar and baking soda are cheaper than sugar and yeast.
As long as the pressure relief valve works bottles will not over pressurize.

Coming from the beverage industry, I'll share some bottle info here.
*Use bottles intended for carbonated soda not a tea or water bottle.*
Soda bottles are blown from a heavier gram weight preform.
They are designed to handle more pressure.
When PET carbonated soda bottles are filled 50-75 PSI is normal.
After receiving a cap their pressure is around 14-30 PSI sent to market.
I can assume this is why 1-2 bar is green on their pressure gauge.
Over time PET bottles in a store will lose CO2, PET plastics are porous.
Thus flat soda from the store, too long on the shelf. The caps don't leak.
PET bottles are blown from an extruded plastic preform.
Seams that you see on the sides of the bottle are not really a seam.
It is a mark from the two halves of the mold, not a weak point.
Weak points tend to be in the feet of the bottle, 5 points the bottle stands on.
*Select a bottle without dented in or damaged feet.*
*Dropped bottles should be discarded and replaced*, creases create a weak spot.
Caps come in two varieties lined and liner less.
*Pick one with a liner* it has an extra membrane to provide a better seal.
Usually water bottles have no liner.

I am going to try this new CO2 method, I think instant pressure is far better.
First day on sugar and yeast is really weak.


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## BruceF

How are you dispersing this right now?


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## jrill

Maryland Guppy said:


> I would think vinegar and baking soda are cheaper than sugar and yeast.
> As long as the pressure relief valve works bottles will not over pressurize.
> 
> Coming from the beverage industry, I'll share some bottle info here.
> *Use bottles intended for carbonated soda not a tea or water bottle.*
> Soda bottles are blown from a heavier gram weight preform.
> They are designed to handle more pressure.
> When PET carbonated soda bottles are filled 50-75 PSI is normal.
> After receiving a cap their pressure is around 14-30 PSI sent to market.
> I can assume this is why 1-2 bar is green on their pressure gauge.
> Over time PET bottles in a store will lose CO2, PET plastics are porous.
> Thus flat soda from the store, too long on the shelf. The caps don't leak.
> PET bottles are blown from an extruded plastic preform.
> Seams that you see on the sides of the bottle are not really a seam.
> It is a mark from the two halves of the mold, not a weak point.
> Weak points tend to be in the feet of the bottle, 5 points the bottle stands on.
> *Select a bottle without dented in or damaged feet.*
> *Dropped bottles should be discarded and replaced*, creases create a weak spot.
> Caps come in two varieties lined and liner less.
> *Pick one with a liner* it has an extra membrane to provide a better seal.
> Usually water bottles have no liner.
> 
> I am going to try this new CO2 method, I think instant pressure is far better.
> First day on sugar and yeast is really weak.


Thanks for the info on bottles. Currently I'm using mountain dew bottles. I like green. Several write ups advise against using vinegar. Does not last as long and apparently pressure can be a problem. All who have tried it that I could find went back to citric acid.


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## Maryland Guppy

Vinegar is 5% acetic acid (CH 3 COOH) and water.
If too volatile it can be diluted as well.


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## Hoppy

One of the biggest problems with DIY CO2 is waiting too long before replenishing the bottle contents. This lets the ppm of CO2 in the tank water drop too low for too long, and that can trigger BBA growth. It takes self discipline to adapt and follow a rigid routine for replenishing the bottles. When I used DIY CO2, I had bad BBA even with low light, because self discipline isn't one of my big attributes. It worked fine until I got bored with the process and waited too long to do my tank duties. When you use pressurized CO2 the tank of CO2 lasts much, much longer and the pressure gauge on the bottle gives you several days warning that you need to refill it, so laziness is much less likely to get you in big BBA trouble. But, if you can discipline yourself well enough, this looks like a very good low cost CO2 option.


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## jrill

Hoppy said:


> One of the biggest problems with DIY CO2 is waiting too long before replenishing the bottle contents. This lets the ppm of CO2 in the tank water drop too low for too long, and that can trigger BBA growth. It takes self discipline to adapt and follow a rigid routine for replenishing the bottles. When I used DIY CO2, I had bad BBA even with low light, because self discipline isn't one of my big attributes. It worked fine until I got bored with the process and waited too long to do my tank duties. When you use pressurized CO2 the tank of CO2 lasts much, much longer and the pressure gauge on the bottle gives you several days warning that you need to refill it, so laziness is much less likely to get you in big BBA trouble. But, if you can discipline yourself well enough, this looks like a very good low cost CO2 option.


I totally agree. Since I am retired being on a regular schedule to change out the bottles is easy. One reason I started up this tank was to have more things to fill up my vast amount of hobby time.


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## hemptation88

Looks like there are different forms of citric acid, monohydrate and anhydrous. Also different grades, food and chemical grade. I wonder if these factors can change how long the reaction occurs.


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## jrill

BruceF said:


> How are you dispersing this right now?


Missed this question. Sorry. Currently through my eheim 2211 canister filter.


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## jrill

Well I was a little bored so I splurged and picked up a $14 solenoid valve on eBay. Its rated for continuous service so it should work. Came yesterday and I hooked it up this morning. I did experience a small problem with the unit. They use what appears to be a silicon type washer where the bottle goes. Very flimsy. The backing soda side tore a bit and must have leaked. That threw the pressure off which appears to have caused the citric acid to keeping flowing as it tried to equalize the pressure. A trip to ace hardware for a replacement in the form of an o ring fixed the problem.


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## burr740

Did you ever get past the 7 day duration or 2 bps? Im doing sugar/yeast on a 20 gallon with two reactor bottles. I can stay at a steady 2 bps changing out 1 bottle per week. If this could do better, either produce more co2 or run steady for longer, then I would be very interested in trying it out.


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## jrill

I was in my first week of trying that when the seal leaked. That was yesterday. I had started the two week test last Saturday so I will have to restart that test when the current Solution empties. But judging by how much is left even with the loss of pressure and fluid transfer that occurred because of the seal I will easily go past one week on this load.


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## jrill

Well got nine days out of the last mix which included the above leak. Remixed today so I will see how far it goes at 2 bps just during the lighting period. The $14 solenoid valve I installed has been working really well.


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## mcclure91

I have been looking into this setup if you can get two weeks im pulling the trigger and doing it


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## BruceF

I ordered a cheap one of these set ups from China the other day. Hopefully it will get here before the next Chinese New Year! So I am following your progress. 

I am curious are both solutions being neutralized or just the baking soda?


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## jrill

Just the baking soda. At the end the citric acid bottle is empty with all the fluid having been moved to the baking soda side. The baking soda slowly dissolves as it produces the co2. Even after the citric acid side is empty and the soda dissolved it continues to produce co2 for a day or more.


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## jasonpatterson

hemptation88 said:


> Looks like there are different forms of citric acid, monohydrate and anhydrous. Also different grades, food and chemical grade. I wonder if these factors can change how long the reaction occurs.


Food grade vs chemical grade shouldn't matter much. Both will be in the high 90's as far as purity is concerned. 

The citric acid should be labeled as monohydrate or anhydrous. The only real difference is one of weight. The hydrated form contains about 10% water by mass. If you're intending to use 200g of anhydrous citric acid and 600mL of water, you could use 219g of monohydrate and 581mL of water. It's unlikely that this will affect the outcome significantly.


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## Remo

I have one of these, they work but are cheaply made and don't last. Im replacing mine with pressurized CO2 as soon as my tank arrives and gets filled. I have automated my co2 with pH controller and a solenoid. I also added a pressure regulator after the junk stock needle valve(to which I leave wide open), and a second but better needle valve after the pressure regulator.


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## jrill

Remo said:


> I have one of these, they work but are cheaply made and don't last. Im replacing mine with pressurized CO2 as soon as my tank arrives and gets filled. I have automated my co2 with pH controller and a solenoid. I also added a pressure regulator after the junk stock needle valve(to which I leave wide open), and a second but better needle valve after the pressure regulator.


How long does yours last between refills.


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## Remo

jrill said:


> How long does yours last between refills.


4 to 5 days. Pressurized CO2 will be cheaper in the long run by far.

More CO2 gets wasted by leaks and over pressure release than what will ever go into water.


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## jrill

Remo said:


> 4 to 5 days. Pressurized CO2 will be cheaper in the long run by far.
> 
> More CO2 gets wasted by leaks and over pressure release than what will ever go into water.


Interesting. I have had it running going on three weeks but have only been able to go nine days for the longest between refills. That's running roughly between 1.7 to 2.0 bps for 8 hours a day. My goal had been 14 days between refills but that's not looking achievable so far.


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## Remo

jrill said:


> Interesting. I have had it running going on three weeks but have only been able to go nine days for the longest between refills. That's running roughly between 1.7 to 2.0 bps for 8 hours a day. My goal had been 14 days between refills but that's not looking achievable so far.


I don't do bps, I run PH controller. Its on as needed to keep PH at my set point. That would account for using more CO2 , but I also don't have PH swings that the fish have to endure every day.


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## jrill

Thanks for the info. Can I ask what size tank its supplying to.


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## Remo

Its not really designed for how I'm using it. I'm sure that if there was a slow constant flow like how it supposed to be used instead of the nearly full on full off like do, it would last longer. Its just not designed for PH controller systems. 

I do still stand by my statement that pressurized CO2 would be cheaper in the long run.



jrill said:


> Thanks for the info. Can I ask what size tank its supplying to.




20 gallon


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## jrill

Remo said:


> Its not really designed for how I'm using it. I'm sure that if there was a slow constant flow like how it supposed to be used instead of the nearly full on full off like do, it would last longer. Its just not designed for PH controller systems.
> 
> I do still stand by my statement that pressurized CO2 would be cheaper in the long run.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20 gallon


Nice tank. I don't disagree with the cost statement. I have worked out the math and will list that here but I wanted to see if I could get two weeks out if it first. One week is looking more realistic right now.


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## Remo

jrill said:


> Nice tank. I don't disagree with the cost statement. I have worked out the math and will list that here but I wanted to see if I could get two weeks out if it first. One week is looking more realistic right now.


Thank you, my first aquarium ever. 

I do plan on keeping the acid/soda CO2 generator for when my tank is out getting filled. Its 4 day turn around where I live , so it will still have its uses. 

Have you tweeked the formula at all?


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## jrill

Not yet. I thought about adjusting 50% just to see what happens but I wanted to see how far the original formula would go first.


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## jrill

Here are my results so far from using the Citric Acid and Backing Soda method of producing C02. I started at the beginning of February with the goal of achieving 14 days of production at approximately 2.0bps before I needed to replace the powder mixes. I first installed a ball valve and then a solenoid in order to run the CO2 only during the daylight hours or for 8 hours a day. So far the best I have been able to achieve is nine days. So for me the question I have to answer is is this good enough to continue and is it worth the effort as opposed to switching to a pressurized system. To me cost and maintenance are the only issues. When used on a small tank where you do not need more than 3bps my experience has been that this system is every bit as reliable and adjustable as a pressurized system. The Citric Acid and Baking Soda can produce far more that 3bps but I would think at that rate of production powder consumption would make the system much less cost effective.
I asked users of pressure systems to share on average how much they spend on refilling their CO2 tanks per year. Based on those responses and my own personal experience in the past it would seem that on average users are refilling a CO2 tank twice a year. Costs and tank size varies so I rounded out the results and will call it $30.00 a year for CO2 gas. Equipment cost for a regulator setup can vary widely from $80.00 to $500.00 or more. I am going to use $200.00 as the cost of a regulator and tank for my cost calculations. I understand these cost will vary depending on your preference.
So ,
Pressurized system $200
Citric Acid System w/ball valve or solenoid $45.00
Using these numbers it costs $155.00 more for the pressure system at start up. 
How long will it take to make up that cost comparing the price of the gas to Citric Acid and Baking Soda?
By buying Citric Acid and Baking Soda 50lbs at a time on Amazon a powder charge will cost me $1.50 every nine days. That comes out to $60.00 a year and approximately $30.00 a year more expensive than C02 gas for the pressure system. So at $30.00 a year it would take 5 years to break even. After those five years you will then save that $30.00 a year with a Pressure System. 
For me at this time I am going to stay with the Citric acid system simply because I do not wish to spend the money on a pressure system. Of course I say that today, who knows what tomorrow will bring :wink:. 
I hope this rambling makes sense. I am not now nor have I ever been a writer but I tried my best. I would be glad to answer questions and will continue to post updates as I play around with the powder formula to see if I can increase recharge times.

JR


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## Hoppy

Thank you for taking the time and effort to report on this. I enjoy experimenting with stuff, too, so I may try this on my 65 gallon low light tank. CO2 is very helpful even with low light, but you don't need the high bubble rates that are needed with high light. The only down side, for me, to using this system is the need for weekly maintenance on the CO2 system. I have learned that I tend to be somewhat erratic about that sort of thing. It is fun to start out, and not much of a chore for the first few months, but later it is easy to slack off too much. And, that would invite BBA to start growing. I have had enough BBA to last a lifetime, so that may be all it takes to discourage me from trying this. But, I still think it looks promising and better than a yeast system.


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## limz_777

does this set-up really need all the fancy looking set-up ,is there any proper diy thread on this ? something simple perhaps ...


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## jrill

limz_777 said:


> does this set-up really need all the fancy looking set-up ,is there any proper diy thread on this ? something simple perhaps ...


You can indeed diy. This web site has a nice drawing of both the yeast and citric acid bottles that should be enough info to build it.
http://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/diy-co2-kit-setup-instructions/

And yes Hoppy I also think it is much better than the yeast method.


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## BruceF

It strikes me that this is a pretty good alternative for small stand alone tanks.

I ordered one of the cheap kits from banggood. D301 After about a week they sent me an email to say they didn't have that sku number so they wanted permission to send me another kit. Anyway it remains to be seen if I get it this year!


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## haril

I have the citric acid CO2 setup for my 40 gallon medium to high light tank. I got it off e-b-a-y shipped from China and it arrived on Feb 17th (within 9 days, I was luck I guess). I set it up on the 18th of Feb and it is still going strong. The pressure went a little low after a week and I just swirled the baking soda solution to dissolve the baking soda more and shake it up and squeezed the Citric acid bottle a few times to get the pressure back.

I run at almost 1 bps for 12 hours and when the lights are off for the next 12 hours, I run at 1 bubble every 4 seconds or so. Today is the 14th day and looks like it will go on for another week at least. The Citric acid solution is a little low and the airline tube in the bottle is above the solution, so when I squeezed it to increase pressure, I just made sure the tubing was under the solution by tilting the bottle a little. I guess I will increase the Citric acid solution a little more in the next refill and see how it goes because I still see undissolved baking soda in the bottom of the other bottle.

Cheers,
Hari


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## jrill

haril said:


> I have the citric acid CO2 setup for my 40 gallon medium to high light tank. I got it off e-b-a-y shipped from China and it arrived on Feb 17th (within 9 days, I was luck I guess). I set it up on the 18th of Feb and it is still going strong. The pressure went a little low after a week and I just swirled the baking soda solution to dissolve the baking soda more and shake it up and squeezed the Citric acid bottle a few times to get the pressure back.
> 
> I run at almost 1 bps for 12 hours and when the lights are off for the next 12 hours, I run at 1 bubble every 4 seconds or so. Today is the 14th day and looks like it will go on for another week at least. The Citric acid solution is a little low and the airline tube in the bottle is above the solution, so when I squeezed it to increase pressure, I just made sure the tubing was under the solution by tilting the bottle a little. I guess I will increase the Citric acid solution a little more in the next refill and see how it goes because I still see undissolved baking soda in the bottom of the other bottle.
> 
> Cheers,
> Hari


Interesting. By the way, its okey to write eBay. 
Not sure why you need to be squeezing the bottle after it starts. I have never had that issue. All of the citric acid gets sucked out of the bottle about a day prior to all the baking soda dissolving. Mine will then maintain production for a few more days until the pressure finally drops.


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## haril

Now you know why I don't write e-bay  without a hyphen. 

I had to squeeze it again because my airline was too long and curving back over the citric acid solution. I will fix that in the next refill. Oh and I got back from work and found a very low bubble rate. I just shook up the Baking soda bottle and it got better. So looks like 15 days is the max in my case.

I did get the white slime over all plastic and rubbery parts though. Did you?



jrill said:


> Interesting. By the way, its okey to write no ebay links allowed
> Not sure why you need to be squeezing the bottle after it starts. I have never had that issue. All of the citric acid gets sucked out of the bottle about a day prior to all the baking soda dissolving. Mine will then maintain production for a few more days until the pressure finally drops.


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## jrill

haril said:


> Now you know why I don't write e-bay  without a hyphen.
> 
> I had to squeeze it again because my airline was too long and curving back over the citric acid solution. I will fix that in the next refill. Oh and I got back from work and found a very low bubble rate. I just shook up the Baking soda bottle and it got better. So looks like 15 days is the max in my case.
> 
> I did get the white slime over all plastic and rubbery parts though. Did you?


No white slime. I had another thought about squeezing the bottles. One mine you can't because the pressure is always to great until the very end when the processes stops.
Thanks for sharing your experience with it.


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## Hilde

burr740 said:


> Thanks. Can you adjust the pressure release to open at a certain level, or is it fixed?


200g of soda and acid citric cannot produce 8kg/cm2 pressure. And safe valve will be released at 4kg/cm2


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## Hilde

jrill said:


> I was in my first week of trying that when the seal leaked. That was yesterday. Judging by how much is left even with the loss of pressure and fluid transfer that occurred because of the seal I will easily go past one week on this load.


What seal leaked? What was the citric acid and sodium bicarb mixture?

I am using a similar DIY Co2 system on my 20G high. Can't wait to see your progress.


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## jrill

Hilde said:


> What seal leaked? What was the citric acid and sodium bicarb mixture?
> 
> I am using a similar DIY Co2 system on my 20G high. Can't wait to see your progress.


It was the baking soda side. All good since I replaced the washers with orings.


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## jrill

Today was recharge day after nine days at 2 bps for 8 hours a day. I increased the citric acid, baking soda and water by 20% in the hope to increase the time between recharge.


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## Hilde

So where, how much for $s did you get your citric acid?


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## PhilipS

jrill said:


> The citric acid I bought on Amazon. Milliard 100% pure food grade citric acid 5lbs. $18.00.


I get my 5lb CO2 bottle re-filled for less every 3 months.

It's medical grade so I know it's pure and consistent.


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## jrill

webskipper said:


> I get my 5lb CO2 bottle re-filled for less every 3 months.
> 
> It's medical grade so I know it's pure and consistent.


Yes, gas is cheaper per year. Still have to figure your break even point factoring the equipment costs. It's a personal choice. Pay a little now or a lot up front to save money in the long run.


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## PhilipS

I bought the bottle in a "getting out the hobby cause I want to get into a more expensive hobby" sale.

Bottles are huge in shipping costs even when sent empty as they should be for HAZMAT.


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## Hilde

haril said:


> I have the citric acid CO2 setup for my 40 gallon medium to high light tank. I set it up on the 18th of Feb and it is still going strong.


Is your A bottle 200ml and 600ml distilled water. Is your B bottle 200ml baking soda and 200ml water?

Bump:


webskipper said:


> I get my 5lb CO2 bottle re-filled for less every 3 months.


I still can't justify spending $200 on Pressurized Co2 system.


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## haril

200 grams Citric acid in 400 ml water + 200 grams Baking soda in 200 ml water. Oh and I dont use distilled water. Just carbon filtered water from a Brita jar.

Yep I cannot think of spending 200 bucks in one go for a CO2 system when this gives me almost similar results with a lower initial investment. I'd rather start another planted tank :icon_mrgr but hey thats just me.




Hilde said:


> Is your A bottle 200ml and 600ml distilled water. Is your B bottle 200ml baking soda and 200ml water?
> 
> Bump:
> I still can't justify spending $200 on Pressurized Co2 system.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> So where, how much for $s did you get your citric acid?


Amazon 5 lbs for $18


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Amazon 5 lbs for $18


Just found on FleeEbay 1k (2.2Lbs) for $10.80 with free shipping.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Just found on FleeEbay 1k (2.2Lbs) for $10.80 with free shipping.


You realize that's more than amazon right[emoji6]


----------



## Remo

Here are the prices for citric acid where I got mine from(ebay) all free shipping.

5 lbs 14.95 (2.99 per lb)

10 lbs 24.95 (2.49 per lb)

15 lbs 39.95 (2.66 per lb)

25 lbs 52.95 (2.11 per lb)


----------



## jrill

Remo said:


> Here are the prices for citric acid where I got mine from(ebay) all free shipping.
> 
> 5 lbs 14.95 (2.99 per lb)
> 
> 10 lbs 24.95 (2.49 per lb)
> 
> 15 lbs 39.95 (2.66 per lb)
> 
> 25 lbs 52.95 (2.11 per lb)


Nice. Pays to shop around.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> You realize that's more than amazon right[emoji6]


Yeh:redface: I realized that after posting it. Multitasking I had a brain fart.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> I have had the unit in operation now for two weeks and running it at 2 bps for 24/7


What are using for bubble counter and where is it placed?


jrill said:


> And yes I put in the ball valve. Stuff I had and the valve from ace hardware.


Not clear to me from picture where the ball valve is placed. Had read ball valve on a tee just before the needle valve helps with the needle valve.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> What are using for bubble counter and where is it placed?
> 
> Not clear to me from picture where the ball valve is placed. Had read ball valve on a tee just before the needle valve helps with the needle valve.


Here is my bubble counter. EBay purchase months ago, if I remember right it was under $5









The system like mine with the bar is a closed system so the only place to put a ball valve is past the needle valve.


----------



## Remo

Freshly installed Cerges reactor. I hope to see longer lasting CO2 generator mix. This will more completely dissolve CO2 in water for less waste.


----------



## PhilipS

Holely tax laws, Batman.

Anyone measure the output of their air lock when the wort is fermenting?

Brewers unite.

Combine 2 wonderful hobbies.


----------



## Remo

webskipper said:


> Holely tax laws, Batman.
> 
> Anyone measure the output of their air lock when the wort is fermenting?
> 
> Brewers unite.
> 
> Combine 2 wonderful hobbies.


I have thought about it, but I don't want to run tube/hose from the brew barn to the house.


----------



## PhilipS

You need an aquarium in the brew barn. Dilemma solved.


----------



## Remo

webskipper said:


> You need an aquarium in the brew barn. Dilemma solved.


I was thinking about growing hops in a greenhouse next to the brew barn, could plum CO2 there.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> The system like mine with the bar is a closed system so the only place to put a ball valve is past the needle valve.


The more I think of the use of a ball valve, I think it is more beneficial to have it after the needle. For then you can disconnect the bottles with ease from the diffuser of filter. I have found the lime wood diffuser works better than the simple glass diffuser.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> The more I think of the use of a ball valve, I think it is more beneficial to have it after the needle. For then you can disconnect the bottles with ease from the diffuser of filter. I have found the lime wood diffuser works better than the simple glass diffuser.


Works for me.


----------



## BruceF

I've been looking at the push to connect fittings that would seem to work well with this type of setup. An inline flow control valve for instance costs about 5 bucks.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> The ball valve is past the needle valve.


Ken90ken said, "You have to readjust the needle valve with each refill. This problem can be solved by inserting a ball valve on a tee just before the needle valve."

Have you had to readjust the needle valve with each refill?


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Ken90ken said, "You have to readjust the needle valve with each refill. This problem can be solved by inserting a ball valve on a tee just before the needle valve."
> 
> Have you had to readjust the needle valve with each refill?


On my unit yes because in order to restart a new mix you need to open and close the needle valve to mix some of the citric acid and baking soda. A way to work around that is to add a second needle valve down line and just run the unit with the unit needle valve open wide. Keep in mind though that these are not expensive units using the highest quality components. The needle valve it comes with does the job but its not as good as can be had. I mark mine with a sharpy where I have it set so that after a recharge I put it back to the same setting. I will still have to adjust it a bit but it only takes a second to do that. Now I will say that during the week as pressure fluctuates I may need to adjust again to maintain the same level. For me its just part of tank observation and upkeep just like removing dead leaves etc.


----------



## Hilde

Remo said:


> Here are the prices for citric acid where I got mine from(ebay) all free shipping.
> 
> 5 lbs 14.95 (2.99 per lb)
> 
> 10 lbs 24.95 (2.49 per lb)
> 
> 15 lbs 39.95 (2.66 per lb)
> 
> 25 lbs 52.95 (2.11 per lb)


I am not finding it at those prices from(ebay). On Amazon though found 5lbs for $15.95.


----------



## limz_777

jrill said:


> You can indeed diy. This web site has a nice drawing of both the yeast and citric acid bottles that should be enough info to build it.
> http://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/diy-co2-kit-setup-instructions/
> 
> And yes Hoppy I also think it is much better than the yeast method.


ok , finally figure out how it works , looks like it take some time to get the equilibrium ? and whats that ball-like thing at bottle A , a airstone ?


another thing if i want it to last longer , double the dosage , will it work ?


----------



## Hilde

limz_777 said:


> ok , finally figure out how it works , looks like it take some time to get the equilibrium ? and whats that ball-like thing at bottle A , a airstone ?


Took just seconds to get the equilibrium. The ball-like thing in bottle A is an airstone.


----------



## limz_777

just realised that 200 g of citric acid is quite a big amount , is it really cost effective ? most mention that it only last 10 days ?


----------



## jrill

limz_777 said:


> just realised that 200 g of citric acid is quite a big amount , is it really cost effective ? most mention that it only last 10 days ?


A few posts earlier (post 49) I show some cost comparisons. You can decide from there if it's cost effective for you.


----------



## jrill

limz_777 said:


> ok , finally figure out how it works , looks like it take some time to get the equilibrium ? and whats that ball-like thing at bottle A , a airstone ?
> 
> 
> another thing if i want it to last longer , double the dosage , will it work ?


Not sure how to make it longer. Working on mix ratios to see.
The ball on bottle a does not appear to be an airstone. There is a single hole at the end. Maybe just weight to keep it at the bottom?


----------



## Hilde

limz_777 said:


> another thing if i want it to last longer , double the dosage , will it work ?


Ken90ken (#49) says, "Reaction rate can be controlled by varying the quantity of water added to the citric acid. The more water, the slower the pressure rise." Perhaps reducing the reaction rate will make it last longer?


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Ken90ken (#49) says, "Reaction rate can be controlled by varying the quantity of water added to the citric acid. The more water, the slower the pressure rise." Perhaps reducing the reaction rate will make it last longer?


Maybe. Not sure if there is an advantage to lowering the pressure.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Ken90ken (#49) says, "Reaction rate can be controlled by varying the quantity of water added to the citric acid. The more water, the slower the pressure rise." Perhaps reducing the reaction rate will make it last longer?


Been thinking more about. I have been emailing a guy, Carl, who tried 1200 ml of water in bottle A and 400ml in B. He only got 7 days. I think next I will try just more water in bottle A.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Been thinking more about. I have been emailing a guy, Carl, who tried 1200 ml of water in bottle A and 400ml in B. He only got 7 days. I think next I will try just more water in bottle A.


My 1st batch only lasted a week. Next batch will try Jubs formula.

Jubs #21 forumula -
Bottle A
1 3/4 cups (14oz) citric acid powder
5 cups (40oz) water

Bottle B
1 1/2 cups (12oz) baking soda 
2 cups (16oz) water 

I run this at 1 bubble per second 24/7 and have over 2 weeks on my current mix of solutions and have only used half or less of the citric acid solution up. 

EvilFish #56 formula- I Just use half of dose (I use 25% of dose acid citric & soda). It's good for 2 weeks and pressure will never up too much.


----------



## BruceF

How many times can 5lbs of citric acid be used to fill Bottle A with 13/4 cups?


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> My 1st batch only lasted a week. Next batch will try Jubs formula.
> 
> Jubs #21 forumula -
> Bottle A
> 1 3/4 cups 1 3/4 cups (14oz) citric acid powder
> 5 cups (40oz) water
> 
> Bottle B
> 1 1/2 cups (12oz) baking soda
> 2 cups (16oz) water
> 
> I run this at 1 bubble per second 24/7 and have over 2 weeks on my current mix of solutions and have only used half or less of the citric acid solution up.
> 
> EvilFish #56 formula- I Just use half of dose (I use 25% of dose acid citric & soda). It's good for 2 weeks and pressure will never up too much.


Hilde, 
I am a little confused. I had followed the thread you reference before. It looks like you are asking the same questions you asked about a year ago in that thread. Did you use it then and stop?


----------



## Hilde

BruceF said:


> How many times can 5lbs of citric acid be used to fill Bottle A with 1 3/4 cups?


16oz per lb. 
16oz x 5lbs = 80
1 3/4 cups = 14oz
80/14 = 5

Bump:


jrill said:


> Hilde,
> I am a little confused. I had followed the thread you reference before. It looks like you are asking the same questions you asked about a year ago in that thread. Did you use it then and stop?


I set the system up before I went out of town in Aug 2014. When got back found that it had not started up. Set the system up again Mar 4, 2015. My memory is bad so I don't remember what I said last year. Reading the thread with a head cold now, for I am out of Co2. Fortunately only have 3 fish in the tank so they shouldn't be affect by the decrease in Co2 for a day.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> 16oz per lb.
> 16oz x 5lbs = 80
> 1 3/4 cups = 14oz
> 80/14 = 5
> 
> Bump:
> I set the system up before I went out of town in Aug 2014. When got back found that it had not started up. Set the system up again Mar 4, 2015. My memory is bad so I don't remember what I said last year. Reading the thread with a head cold now, for I am out of Co2. Fortunately only have 3 fish in the tank so they shouldn't be affect by the decrease in Co2 for a day.


Cool. It was good to reread that thread so thanks for that. It does have several good ideas on formulas. Now I have to decide which one to try next[emoji6]


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Cool. It was good to reread that thread so thanks for that. It does have several good ideas on formulas. Now I have to decide which one to try next[emoji6]


Reading it I only found formulas from Jubs and Evilfish. Whom else had a good formula?


----------



## BruceF

Ummm cups are not a measure of weight.


----------



## Hilde

BruceF said:


> Ummm cups are not a measure of weight.


I know but when you google how many ozs in 1 lb you get 16oz.


----------



## jrill

BruceF said:


> Ummm cups are not a measure of weight.


The original poster on that weighed it first then measured it in cups for people who did not have a scale.

Bump:


Hilde said:


> Reading it I only found formulas from Jubs and Evilfish. Whom else had a good formula?


I lost the other thread but it mostly dealt with just changing the amount of water in the citric acid side (bottle A). I think is was a site in the UK.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> The original poster on that weighed it first then measured it in cups for people who did not have a scale.


Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Thanks for the heads up.


This helped me:
http://www.chymist.com/Mass-volume equivalents.pdf

Also, I added approximately 175 grams of Citric acid instead of 200 grams since thats all I had the first time I tried it and it lasted me 15 days at around 1 bps for 12 hours and 1 bubble every 3 seconds for 12 hours.

My second batch is mixed at the full dose of 200 grams. Lets see how long it goes.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> This helped me:
> http://www.chymist.com/Mass-volume equivalents.pdf


Now I am more confused. 
For I have a bottle of citric acid 
7.5 oz is 212g
3.6 tsp = 1g
212 x 3.6 = 763tsp
6tsp per oz
763/6 = 127oz

I am just going to take the formula from Jubs and divide it in half. Next hopefully I will have a scale.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Now I am more confused.
> For I have a bottle of citric acid
> 7.5 oz is 212g
> 3.6 tsp = 1g
> 212 x 3.6 = 763tsp
> 6tsp per oz
> 763/6 = 127oz
> 
> I am just going to take the formula from Jubs and divide it in half. Next hopefully I will have a scale.


So your using liquid citric acid. I think that is way more expensive.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> So your using liquid citric acid. I think that is way more expensive.


No. Using the powder form. So I was using measuring scale for liquids?

Decided to use the metric converter here


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> No. Using the powder form. So I was using measuring scale for liquids?
> 
> Decided to use the metric converter here


I just misunderstood whenyou mentioned a bottle of citric acid.


----------



## jrill

Well the 25% increase of everything was a bust. Only 7 days.
Trying this formula next. Took it from one of the sites listed above. Can't remember which.
Bottle A 150g citric acid in 800 ml water
Bottle B 200g baking soda in 400ml water.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Trying this formula next.
> Bottle A 150g citric acid in 800 ml water
> Bottle B 200g baking soda in 400ml water.


Bottle A original- 200g citric acid and 400ml water
Bottle A new -150g citric acid (25% less) 800ml water (doubled)

Bottle B orininal-200g soda and 800ml water
Bottle B new- 200g soda (same) and 400ml water (50% less)

The changes to your solution are not cosistant. I think I read that Evilfish decreased the citric acid and baking soda by 25%. Since increasing did not work I would do the opposite, decrease by 25%


----------



## limz_777

jrill said:


> limz_777 said:
> 
> 
> 
> just realised that 200 g of citric acid is quite a big amount , is it really cost effective ? most mention that it only last 10 days ?
> 
> 
> 
> A few posts earlier (post 49) I show some cost comparisons. You can decide from there if it's cost effective for you.
Click to expand...

Ok, saw one dude selling 250 g for 5 bucks, his CA must be special , lol


----------



## Hilde

Jril my 1st batch, which I used ml, only worked for a week. Bottle A was empty, bottle B was full, and the pressure was the same as when I started it. Have you had this problem?


----------



## haril

10th day of batch 2 and citric acid solution bottle is empty and the pressure has dropped to the lower green portion. I am still able to get 1 bps easily. Shake up the baking soda solution to stir it up and increase the pressure if it drops too low for your diffuser.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> 10th day of batch 2 and citric acid solution bottle is empty and the pressure has dropped to the lower green portion. I am still able to get 1 bps easily. Shake up the baking soda solution to stir it up and increase the pressure if it drops too low for your diffuser.


Since the pressure decreased you may have a leak. I had that happen when a hose came loose as I was starting it. 

What was your formula for bottle A and B?


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Jril my 1st batch, which I used ml, only worked for a week. Bottle A was empty, bottle B was full, and the pressure was the same as when I started it. Have you had this problem?


Not sure what your asking. My longest was 9 days and shortest was 7. Bottle B always ends up full with A empty which is how it works. Pressure does stay pretty stable to the end but you can shake it up at the end to increase the dying pressure and get another day or so. I have gone two or three days after A is empty from the built up pressure.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> 10th day of batch 2 and citric acid solution bottle is empty and the pressure has dropped to the lower green portion. I am still able to get 1 bps easily. Shake up the baking soda solution to stir it up and increase the pressure if it drops too low for your diffuser.


That's less time than I would expect at one bps. Did you use the recommended amounts or different.


----------



## haril

I used the standard formula this time (200g Citric acid with 400ml water and 200g baking soda with 200ml water). I dont think I have a leak. I had good pressure till yesterday when I installed a bubble counter. The pressure is almost back to normal now but I might just get another day or 2 as the citric acid is almost over in the bottle.



Hilde said:


> Since the pressure decreased you may have a leak. I had that happen when a hose came loose as I was starting it.
> 
> What was your formula for bottle A and B?


Bump:


jrill said:


> That's less time than I would expect at one bps. Did you use the recommended amounts or different.


I got 15 days last time. The only difference was I used 175 grams of citric acid instead of 200. but then I had the CO2 ladder and not the cermaric diffuser.

I am pretty certain I will go the paintball tank way shortly.... and I promised my wife that there's no more spending


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Not sure what your asking. My longest was 9 days and shortest was 7. Bottle B always ends up full with A empty which is how it works. Pressure does stay pretty stable to the end but you can shake it up at the end to increase the dying pressure and get another day or so. I have gone two or three days after A is empty from the built up pressure.


Thanks!! I thought maybe the pressure release had leaked. For I read last year about that happening to someone. I am out citric acid now. Waiting for some coming in the mail. For now gathering formulas from you tube. 

Reza Adi 
250gr citric acid + 500ml water in bottle A
250gr baking soda + 250ml water in bottle B 
Ran for 1 month

Bump:


haril said:


> I am pretty certain I will go the paintball tank way shortly.... and I promised my wife that there's no more spending


Yeh that is what I told myself when I was living on unemployment and family aid. You are addicted to the hobby. Perhaps you can find a good used system on this website or APC I thought of going that route but getting a good regulator is for a low price is the problem. Some don't use a regulator just a needle valve. That scares me. Some have told me it is cheaper to get a used tank at craigslist.

I tell newbies to plants stick to the ferns, moss, anibuas. They are more expensive than stem plants but can be kept in a tank in a sunny south window.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Reza Adi
> 250gr citric acid + 500ml water in bottle A
> 250gr baking soda + 250ml water in bottle B
> Ran for 1 month


Wow, that sounds promising. 

Edit: I noticed that in the video comment he mentions that his bubble rate is 0.5 bubble a second (1 bubble in 2 seconds), that's half of my rate and I did get 15 days the first time with slightly less Citric acid... hmmmmm. I will try this formula out and update you guys.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> I had good pressure till yesterday when I installed a bubble counter. The pressure is almost back to normal now but I might just get another day or 2 as the citric acid is almost over in the bottle.


Well that probably caused some air disperse while you were doing it. Since it is going up, from what jrill said, you may be at the end of the cycle.


----------



## Remo

Remo said:


> Here are the prices for citric acid where I got mine from(ebay) all free shipping.
> 
> 5 lbs 14.95 (2.99 per lb)
> 
> 10 lbs 24.95 (2.49 per lb)
> 
> 15 lbs 39.95 (2.66 per lb)
> 
> 25 lbs 52.95 (2.11 per lb)





Hilde said:


> I am not finding it at those prices from(ebay). On Amazon though found 5lbs for $15.95.



Search on eBay, Citric Acid USP/Food Grade Organic 1-30 Lb packs! FREE SHIPPING!!


----------



## jrill

jrill said:


> Well the 25% increase of everything was a bust. Only 7 days.
> Trying this formula next. Took it from one of the sites listed above. Can't remember which.
> Bottle A 150g citric acid in 800 ml water
> Bottle B 200g baking soda in 400ml water.


Well, that didn't work. Will be empty tomorrow so 3 days. Did you ever try something and as soon as you start you realize it won't work. I did that with this batch. As soon as I mixed it it occurred to me that by diluting the citric acid in bottle A more would have to be used to keep the pressure up. Sure enough that's what happened. There's still about an inch of undissolved baking soda in bottle B. I think I need to increase citric acid. I will post tomorrow what formula I go with for those still interested.


----------



## Hilde

Remo said:


> Search on eBay, Citric Acid USP/Food Grade Organic 1-30 Lb packs! FREE SHIPPING!!


Thanks!! That was helpful info.

Bump:


jrill said:


> As soon as I mixed it it occurred to me that by diluting the citric acid in bottle A more would have to be used to keep the pressure up. Sure enough that's what happened. There's still about an inch of undissolved baking soda in bottle B. I think I need to increase citric acid. I will post tomorrow what formula I go with for those still interested.


Googling on citric and baking soda reation read that 3xs baking soda is needed. This was probably for projects like volcanoes. Now thinking of trying it.


----------



## Quizcat

*One Co2 tank/regulator, two aquariums?*

I am wondering if I could supply two aquariums, a 20 gallon and a 10 gallon, off of one Co2 tank, but through just one regulator. The tanks are side by side, and it would be a lot cheaper than having to buy two tanks and two regulators...maybe two needle valves with independent pressure relief valves after the regulator to establish the bubble count for the two different sized tanks without introducing too much pressure, especially to the smaller of the two aquariums. As a newbie to Co2, I have no idea if that would be dangerous or ill advised. Just curious...


----------



## jrill

Quizcat said:


> I am wondering if I could supply two aquariums, a 20 gallon and a 10 gallon, off of one Co2 tank, but through just one regulator. The tanks are side by side, and it would be a lot cheaper than having to buy two tanks and two regulators...maybe two needle valves with independent pressure relief valves after the regulator to establish the bubble count for the two different sized tanks without introducing too much pressure, especially to the smaller of the two aquariums. As a newbie to Co2, I have no idea if that would be dangerous or ill advised. Just curious...


It can be done. There are threads on that. You just need a splitter with two needle valves. But this thread is not about co2 from a canister.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Thanks!! That was helpful info.
> 
> Bump:
> Googling on citric and baking soda reation read that 3xs baking soda is needed. This was probably for projects like volcanoes. Now thinking of trying it.


I don't think so. There is still baking soda in the bottle. I think I need a greater amount of citric acid than baking soda.


----------



## Hilde

Quizcat said:


> I am wondering if I could supply two aquariums, a 20 gallon and a 10 gallon, off of one Co2 tank, but through just one regulator. The tanks are side by side





jrill said:


> It can be done. There are threads on that. You just need a splitter with two needle valves. But this thread is not about co2 from a canister.


It is hard to say if you could get enough pressure to go through
2 needle valves.

Bump:


jrill said:


> I don't think so. There is still baking soda in the bottle. I think I need a greater amount of citric acid than baking soda.


Well have decide to double the baking soda. Hope that it creates more power and thus last longer than a week. If I can't get this going longer than a week after using up 5lbs of citric acid I am going back to metricide diluted. 

Next formula hoping to start Mon. the 16th
Bottle A 250g of Citric Acid and 600ml of Water.
Bottle B 400g of Sodium Bicarb and 400ml of Water


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Next formula hoping to start Mon. the 16th
> Bottle A 250g of Citric Acid and 600ml of Water.
> Bottle B 400g of Sodium Bicarb and 400ml of Water


That's good. My mix this weekend will be with critic acid on the high side so it will be good to compare.


----------



## haril

My 2nd batch with the standard prescribed formula just ran out after 10 days at 1 to 2 bps. I just mixed a new batch :

200 grams Citric Acid + 500 ml water.
200 grams Baking Soda + 250 ml water.

I'll keep you posted on how it goes.

Also, I now marked the levels in the soda bottles with a permanent marker after filling it with the powder so that you don't have to weigh each time. Just fill it up to that mark and make sure it is level. I dont weigh it in the first place as I dont have a scale. I just used that link I posted a while ago which shows the different cup weights for different chemicals.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> My 2nd batch with the standard prescribed formula just ran out after 10 days at 1 to 2 bps. I just mixed a new batch :
> 
> 200 grams Citric Acid + 500 ml water.
> 200 grams Baking Soda + 250 ml water.
> 
> I'll keep you posted on how it goes
> 
> Cheers,
> Hari


Cool. Thanks. Here is my mix of the day.
Citric acid 350g/900ml water
Baking soda 200g/ 200 ml water


----------



## Remo

Looks like I'll be out of the citric acid/ baking soda discussion. CO2 tank is filled and installed , although I will use the citric/soda when the tank is out for filling.


----------



## jrill

Remo said:


> Looks like I'll be out of the citric acid/ baking soda discussion. CO2 tank is filled and installed , although I will use the citric/soda when the tank is out for filling.


Nice. Hope it works well. After this summer I may switch to a can too. But your right the citric/soda will be good to have in the closet as a backup.


----------



## limz_777

jrill said:


> Not sure how to make it longer. Working on mix ratios to see.
> The ball on bottle a does not appear to be an airstone. There is a single hole at the end. Maybe just weight to keep it at the bottom?


ok , its not a airstone , just a dead weight purpose ?


----------



## jrill

limz_777 said:


> ok , its not a airstone , just a dead weight purpose ?


To be honest, I am not sure. Near as I can tell its just a heavy piece of plastic with a single hole in the end.


----------



## Hilde

limz_777 said:


> ok , its not a airstone , just a dead weight purpose ?


I think it is there to help mix the solution and get back flow from other bottle into the bottle.

This thread on youtube with someone using citric acid in a canister may be of interest to someone on this thread. I am not certain if he uses a regulator, which the most expensive item of pressurized Co2. I asked but have not gotten a reply. Anybody know what he has capped the canister with?


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> This thread on youtube with someone using citric acid in a canister may be of interest to someone on this thread. I am not certain if he uses a regulator, which the most expensive item of pressurized Co2. I asked but have not gotten a reply. Anybody know what he has capped the canister with?


I believe the unit on top is probably just a needle valve, pressure gauge, bubble counter and solenoid. I doubt the pressure gets high enough to warrant a regulator. That's why its a metal canister, to contain the pressure and why the instructions say to close the bottle quickly. Can't see that unit being cheaper than gas but maybe.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> I believe the unit on top is probably just a needle valve, pressure gauge, bubble counter and solenoid. I doubt the pressure gets high enough to warrant a regulator. That's why its a metal canister, to contain the pressure and why the instructions say to close the bottle quickly. Can't see that unit being cheaper than gas but maybe.


If it was done with a paintball tank it should be cheaper than a pressurized system. There is a thread on a paintball system without the regulator shows cost under $100, which I don't feel is safe. The cost of pressurized system is approx. $200. This unit with citric acid I would feel safe without a regulator.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> If it was done with a paintball tank it should be cheaper than a pressurized system. There is a thread on a paintball system without the regulator shows cost under $100, which I don't feel is safe. The cost of pressurized system is approx. $200. This unit with citric acid I would feel safe without a regulator.


those units are $125 on ebay I think gas will be cheaper. You can build a pretty good regulator for $100, then another $50 for a tank and refill.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> those units are $125 on ebay I think gas will be cheaper. You can build a pretty good regulator for $100, then another $50 for a tank and refill.


Yeh I saw that. But if you did it DIY as with a paintball Co2 system it should come out cheaper. It is just a matter of finding a tank.

Here is the tread on DIY paintball Co2. Jaggedfury says, "This setup can cost from $30 dollars to $80 dollars + for a working unit. It all depends on what you want to do and add on to it. But it's easily obtainable with $30 dollars to rig up."

Yeh you figured $150 without the solenoide and a good needle valve. I priced approx $200


----------



## haril

24 oz paint ball tank = 25 $

Painball adapter + valve with gauge  = 13 $

Needle Valve  = $ 6.50

Tank refill = $ 6

TOTAL COST = around $ 50 assuming you already have CO2 tubing, diffuser, bubble counter, etc. You will probably need some teflon tape as well to wrap around the threading of joints. I have seen people online who have used a similar setup and works good. I intend to go this route.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> 24 oz paint ball tank = 25 $
> 
> Painball adapter + valve with gauge  = 13 $
> 
> Needle Valve  = $ 6.50
> 
> Tank refill = $ 6
> 
> TOTAL COST = around $ 50


What about the regulator and the solenoid. That is a lot pressure to rely on a needle valve to keep down. Scary!! 

We've gotten a bit off the subject. I brought up the paintball sysem for I am wondering if the citric system was done with a tank that could be filled with citric acid *DIY* that it would be approx the same cost as the paintball system *DIY*. For I would feel more comfortable using the citric system without a regulator than with the paintball setup with no regulator. Many have done it but I couldn't. Too scary for me!!


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> What about the regulator and the solenoid. That is a lot pressure to rely on a needle valve to keep down. Scary!!
> 
> For I would feel more comfortable using the citric system without a regulator than with the paintball setup with no regulator. Many have done it but I couldn't. Too scary for me!!


The adapter I mentioned is the adapter + regulator + gauge. No way will I have just a needle valve :icon_surp

You can add an optional solenoid valve if automation is required.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> The adapter I mentioned is the adapter + regulator + gauge. No way will I have just a needle valve :icon_surp
> 
> You can add an optional solenoid valve if automation is required.


Ratts!! Wish I had known that before I started the citric Co2. I have spent at least $40 on it.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Ratts!! Wish I had known that before I started the citric Co2. I have spent at least $40 on it.


Welcome to the club :hihi:. I will probably switch to this as soon as I finish my 2 pounds of Citric acid.

PS: I edited the original links, for some reason they were not pointing correctly.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## jrill

I don't think your going to be happy with a $7 needle valve. And no where near me fills paintball cans. For me its either diy or full gas. Full gas maybe next fall if I get a bigger tank for high light.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> I don't think your going to be happy with a $7 needle valve. And no where near me fills paintball cans. For me its either diy or full gas. Full gas maybe next fall if I get a bigger tank for high light.


Oh ok, is that because of the lack of fine control? Is there anything that you can recommend that is of similar design?

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> Welcome to the club . I will probably switch to this as soon as I finish my 2 pounds of Citric acid.


I just got a 5lb bag of Citric acid. 


haril said:


> The adapter I mentioned is the adapter + regulator + gauge. No way will I have just a needle valve :icon_surp


That ASA Adapter Fill Station Remote with 3000psi Gauge looks like it only measures the pressure. I bought it without the gauge (evilbay) with the thought that I could buy a gauge locally cheap. 

Everyone excuse us for getting off the subject. Just needed to discuss the financial options.

Bump:


jrill said:


> And no where near me fills paintball cans.


You don't have any sports stores in the area? Sports Authority fills the paintball tanks.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Oh ok, is that because of the lack of fine control? Is there anything that you can recommend that is of similar design?
> 
> Cheers,
> Hari


Pretty much. They use those on ice makers and humidifiers and such to control water flow. Not real fine flow control in my experience with the. A good needle valve will go $ 40ish
http://cga320.com/fabco-nv-55-18-needle-valve


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Bump:
> You don't have any sports stores in the area? Sports Authority fills the paintball tanks.


Heck no. Have to drive 2hrs to find anything like that.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Pretty much. They use those on ice makers and humidifiers and such to control water flow. Not real fine flow control in my experience with the. A good needle valve will go $ 40ish
> http://cga320.com/fabco-nv-55-18-needle-valve


What about the ****** swagelock needle-valve, selling for $15 on evilbay


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> 24 oz paint ball tank = 25 $
> 
> Painball adapter + valve with gauge  = 13 $
> 
> Needle Valve  = $ 6.50
> 
> Tank refill = $ 6
> 
> TOTAL COST = around $ 50


Posted a thread about the paintball adaptor here. It is as I thought just a measure of pressure not a regulator. Single stage regulator is recommended, which approx $80.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> What about the ****** swagelock needle-valve, selling for $15 on evilbay


I'm not the right one to ask. I only have experience with two different needle valves but not that one.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Posted a thread about the paintball adaptor here. It is as I thought just a measure of pressure not a regulator. Single stage regulator is recommended, which approx $80.


I think the gauge does only measure the pressure inside the tank the moment you open and not a regulated pressure that you want to output. The valve with the knob on top can still be used by turning to regulate how much gas you are letting out to the needle valve. The gauge should show the pressure when you open this valve on top. Obviously it is not a fine control like a double stage regulator.

This is what is used and explained even in that master paintball DIY thread.


----------



## Hilde

I was just wonder if you all are using distilled water or tap water in the solutions?

Bump:


haril said:


> Obviously it is not a fine control like a double stage regulator.
> 
> This is what is used and explained even in that master paintball DIY thread.


I was at 1 time keeping up with that thread. In the first page you see the part list and no regulator is mentioned. Many on this tread advocate just using a needle valve in DIY paintball co2 system.


----------



## jrill

Tap water.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> I was just wonder if you all are using distilled water or tap water in the solutions?


I dont use distilled water. I do use filtered tap water from my Brita jar tho to make sure there is no chlorine.



Hilde said:


> I was at 1 time keeping up with that thread. In the first page you see the part list and no regulator is mentioned. Many on this tread advocate just using a needle valve in DIY paintball co2 system.



Yeah, but its definitely scary without the ASA valve 

Bump: I would probably go in for a quality needle valve with this setup. There are some decent ones for under 20 $ like this one below that can handle 6000 PSI

Needle valve by PIC


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> Yeah, but its definitely scary without the ASA valve
> 
> Bump: I would probably go in for a quality needle valve with this setup. There are some decent ones for under 20 $ like this one below that can handle 6000 PSI
> 
> Needle valve by PIC


I thought it scary without a regulator. From what I have read the paintball psi max is 1500, thus that needle work. 


jrill said:


> Tap water.


Do you add water dechlorination to your tap water before adding it to your mixture?


----------



## jrill

No declorinator


----------



## jrill

jrill said:


> Cool. Thanks. Here is my mix of the day.
> Citric acid 350g/900ml water
> Baking soda 200g/ 200 ml water


Five days on this mix. What was interesting though was it seemed to be very stable each day with equal amounts of citric acid moved to the baking soda side right up until the night of day four. On day four all the baking soda had dissolved. Then overnight nearly all the remaining citric acid solution moved to bottle B. There was still pressure present and I suppose I could have gotten another day out of it but I decided to change it out anyway. So for this week I am increasing just the baking soda powder over last weeks mix.
Bottle A. 350g CA / 900 ml water
Bottle B. 300g BS / 200 ml water


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Five days on this mix. What was interesting though was it seemed to be very stable each day with equal amounts of citric acid moved to the baking soda side right up until the night of day four. On day four all the baking soda had dissolved. Then overnight nearly all the remaining citric acid solution moved to bottle B. There was still pressure present and I suppose I could have gotten another day out of it but I decided to change it out anyway. So for this week I am increasing just the baking soda powder over last weeks mix.
> Bottle A. 350g CA / 900 ml water
> Bottle B. 300g BS / 200 ml water


5 days is a bit short for that much of Citric acid. I think that the stronger or greater the reaction in the Baking soda bottle, more Citric acid gets sucked in and it may increase exponentially from there. I could be wrong as well. The original recipe asks for a 1:2 ratio of CA and water, maybe you are diluting it too much here?? 

I am on day 5 with 200g CA / 500 ml water and I still have more than 50% left in bottle A and this time I just left the CO2 at 1 bps continuously without turning it low in the night.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> 5 days is a bit short for that much of Citric acid. I think that the stronger or greater the reaction in the Baking soda bottle, more Citric acid gets sucked in and it may increase exponentially from there. I could be wrong as well. The original recipe asks for a 1:2 ratio of CA and water, maybe you are diluting it too much here??
> 
> I am on day 5 with 200g CA / 500 ml water and I still have more than 50% left in bottle A and this time I just left the CO2 at 1 bps continuously without turning it low in the night.


Could well be. Will be interested to see how long yours go.


----------



## haril

I just came home to find the diffuser bubbling away a lot of bubbles and when I checked the bubble counter it was running like 4 bps. I turned down the valve so that the rate is 1 bps.

The pressure on the gauge shows 2.5 Kg/cm2 which is much higher than anything I have ever seen. Is this pressure safe?

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> I just came home to find the diffuser bubbling away a lot of bubbles and when I checked the bubble counter it was running like 4 bps. I turned down the valve so that the rate is 1 bps.
> 
> The pressure on the gauge shows 2.5 Kg/cm2 which is much higher than anything I have ever seen. Is this pressure safe?
> 
> Cheers,
> Hari


Should be fine. I have seen mine as high as 4ish. I don't think the safety valve pops till 5 or more.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Should be fine. I have seen mine as high as 4ish. I don't think the safety valve pops till 5 or more.


Phew, thats a relief but I wonder what caused it to happen. I also saw the tube in the Citric acid bubbling. I am assuming it is the CO2 coming thru to Bottle A.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Phew, thats a relief but I wonder what caused it to happen. I also saw the tube in the Citric acid bubbling. I am assuming it is the CO2 coming thru to Bottle A.


You will see that as I assume the pressure is equalizing in the two bottles. A couple of times around day four or five I have seen a large transfer of citric acid to bottle B with a spike in pressure. Only started seeing that when I started playing with the formula.


----------



## jrill

Found a leak today. Ticked me off a bit. I have done a fair amount of plumbing and air line work and am fairly confident with fittings. I had even done the soap and water mix to check for leaks and everything looked good. Today it seemed like I had gone through a fair amount of citric acid overnight so I got suspicious. I sure wish I knew who suggested it on this forum but someone had suggested using a bottle of the bubbles kids play with. I had to go out anyway so I grabbed some and a foam brush. Sure enough the stuff worked great and showed not one but two leaks. All fixed and back in action. Thanks whoever you are. Today this old dog learned a new trick.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Found a leak today. Ticked me off a bit. I have done a fair amount of plumbing and air line work and am fairly confident with fittings. I had even done the soap and water mix to check for leaks and everything looked good. Today it seemed like I had gone through a fair amount of citric acid overnight so I got suspicious. I sure wish I knew who suggested it on this forum but someone had suggested using a bottle of the bubbles kids play with. I had to go out anyway so I grabbed some and a foam brush. Sure enough the stuff worked great and showed not one but two leaks. All fixed and back in action. Thanks whoever you are.


Glad you could find the leaks and fix them. I guess I will do this once a month as a maintenance check on my rig. Where were the leaks and how did you fix them?


----------



## jrill

The leaks were on both sides of my solenoid valve. Reapplied some tape and good to go.


----------



## BruceF

What is the problem with using vinegar?


----------



## Hilde

BruceF said:


> What is the problem with using vinegar?


 Most people whom has used vinegar have not had any success with it. Today, here found someone used it with success. Have read if vinegar used that you have to use more of it. I am sticky with what the majority have success with, citric acid.


----------



## jrill

BruceF said:


> What is the problem with using vinegar?


Folks have report over pressure problems with vinegar. Apparently its not as stable as citric acid is when mixed with baking soda, but I have never tried it.


----------



## jrill

Well I believe that fixing that leak yesterday will be a game changer. Before I fixed it was seeing around a 1/4 of citric acid moving to bottle B over night, every night. Now last night with no leak the level did not move. Should have a huge impact on longevity. Of course after this mix is used I may have to re visit some of the ones I tried already, but what else is a retired guy suppose to due when the river is too high to go fishing.


----------



## photofish

Can you tell me what the reason for citric acid and baking soda is for? Is it to add CO2 to the tank? Is this set up for plants only not fish? I have a product from a company names Home Grown that is a chlorine eliminator with vitamin C. I just learned about vitamin C that it is good for the aquarium. Thanks


----------



## jrill

photofish said:


> Can you tell me what the reason for citric acid and baking soda is for? Is it to add CO2 to the tank? Is this set up for plants only not fish? I have a product from a company names Home Grown that is a chlorine eliminator with vitamin C. I just learned about vitamin C that it is good for the aquarium. Thanks


Yes, to add co2 to the tank for the plants. C02 is used in both plant only and tanks with fish too.


----------



## Hoppy

photofish said:


> Can you tell me what the reason for citric acid and baking soda is for? Is it to add CO2 to the tank? Is this set up for plants only not fish? I have a product from a company names Home Grown that is a chlorine eliminator with vitamin C. I just learned about vitamin C that it is good for the aquarium. Thanks


Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) is not recommended for an aquarium. It is a necessary addition to human diets, but I haven't seen where it is good for fish to swim around in, and it isn't a plant food either. It is a pretty weak acid, and expensive compared to citric acid, since it is sold as a food product.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Of course after this mix is used I may have to re visit some of the ones I tried already, but what else is a retired guy suppose to due when the river is too high to go fishing.


bowlby89 solution lasted 4 weeks. It is:
*Bottle A* 100g citiric acid powder and 300ml water 
*Bottle B* 100g bicarb soda and 100ml water


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> bowlby89 solution lasted 4 weeks. It is:
> *Bottle A* 100g citiric acid powder and 300ml water
> *Bottle B* 100g bicarb soda and 100ml water


But if you notice he was running 1 bubble every 2.5 seconds. At that rate I am not surprised. I am running 2 bps.
I am restarting today at the original formula to reset my baseline after plugging my leaks.

From the post you referenced:
"I make up my CO2 mix with 100g citiric acid powder 300ml water in bottle A and 100g bicarb soda and 100ml of water in bottle B. I turn it on when I leave for work at 8am and turn it off at 5pm running at 1 bubble every 2.5 seconds which lasts me approximately 4 weeks."


----------



## jrill

Going to reset my baseline now that I have fixed the leaks. Remixed with the original formula.


----------



## haril

Can I rig this inline with my Citric acid system?

Electric-Solenoid-Replacement-Pipelines-Applications


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> Can I rig this inline with my Citric acid system?
> 
> Electric-Solenoid-Replacement-Pipelines-Applications


I don't know about that 1. Here is 1 that will work, which is on frebay


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Can I rig this inline with my Citric acid system?
> 
> Electric-Solenoid-Replacement-Pipelines-Applications


I don't see why not. But I don't know anything about that particular solenoid. I know one thing important to verify is if its rated for continuous service. I bought the one I use on eBay for around $14.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> I don't see why not. But I don't know anything about that particular solenoid. I know one thing important to verify is if its rated for continuous service. I bought the one I use on eBay for around $14.


Can you give me the item number on e-bay for the one that you are using?


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Can you give me the item number on e-bay for the one that you are using?


Pm sent. I have been told were not suppose to post item numbers.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> Can you give me the item number on e-bay for the one that you are using?


Also make certain you get 1 with 110 watts. There are many with 220 watts which is for Europe.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Also make certain you get 1 with 110 watts. There are many with 220 watts which is for Europe.


I think you mean 110 volts [emoji6] not watts.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> I think you mean 110 volts [emoji6] not watts.


yes!! Excuse me got a sinus headache now.

PM that solenoid too, please.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Pm sent. I have been told were not suppose to post item numbers.


Thanks jrill, This is in line with what I was keeping a watch on e-Bay. I will surely get one for the US 110 V but I see that there are 12V DC models available. I guess it makes sense to get a 12V DC and power it with a small DC power supply right? less heat? Isnt yours 12 V DC as well?

Also, did you get the connectors separately to connect the air tubes and what kind are those? 

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Thanks jrill, This is in line with what I was keeping a watch on e-Bay. I will surely get one for the US 110 V but I see that there are 12V DC models available. I guess it makes sense to get a 12V DC and power it with a small DC power supply right? less heat?
> 
> Cheers,
> Hari


Yes I just noticed that. I would get the 12volt one if I would do it over again.

Bump:


Hilde said:


> yes!! Excuse me got a sinus headache now.
> 
> PM that solenoid too, please.


sent


----------



## Hilde

bump


----------



## haril

11th day at a constant 1 bps and all of the CA has transferred to the other bottle. Pressure indicates 1.75.

This is using 200g CA + 500 ml water AND 200g BS + 200ml water.

I wonder if the quality of CA and ambient temperature plays a role.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> The leaks were on both sides of my solenoid valve. Reapplied some tape and good to go.


Was the symptom the pressure decreasing?


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Was the symptom the pressure decreasing?


Mostly the transfer of Citric acid to bottle B much faster than it should have been. Pressure stayed ok because of the transfer.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> A good needle valve will go $ 40ish
> http://cga320.com/fabco-nv-55-18-needle-valve


Will that fit the DIY Co2 system or is it for a different setup, such as paintball or reg. tank? I am still learning about needle valves. How much pressure is it suppose to hold down?


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Will that fit the DIY Co2 system or is it for a different setup, such as paintball or reg. tank? I am still learning about needle valves. How much pressure is it suppose to hold down?


It works very well. I was bored and bought it. Got tired of re adjusting the unit valve after a mix refill. Easy to adjust. Uses standard 1/8 tapered pipe fitting. I have it connected to the solenoid with a coupler. You could put a brass hose nipple on the outlet and run it to your bubble counter or mount a jbl style bubble counter on top of it.


----------



## Hilde

No 1 solenoid listed as Co2 solenoid and 2 look different. Am I just not seeing the side where a tube goes in?


----------



## haril

I just ordered this of e-Bay for 14 $









It has a 1/4 inch thread and I will get this 1/4 in. x 1/8 in. Brass Barb x MIP Adapter from HomeDepot to attach the airtube to:


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> No 1 solenoid listed as Co2 solenoid and 2 look different. Am I just not seeing the side where a tube goes in?


There just different and one has hose connectors already in place.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> I just ordered this of e-Bay for 14 $
> 
> View attachment 451210
> 
> 
> It has a 1/4 inch thread and I will get this 1/4 in. x 1/8 in. Brass Barb x MIP Adapter from HomeDepot to attach the airtube to:
> 
> View attachment 451218


Cool beans.


----------



## haril

Just wanted to share this:


----------



## jrill

This is the beginning of day four on this batch after plugging all the leaks. Keeping my fingers crossed as I type this but for sure a new record for me of the least amount of citric acid depleted in four days. Only used about 1/4" at 2bps.


----------



## hemptation88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ9nfWXZZ-s

Anybody have experience with this product? Found it for sale for around $70.


----------



## Hilde

hemptation88 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ9nfWXZZ-s
> 
> Anybody have experience with this product? Found it for sale for around $70.


Looks like a paintball Co2 system but probably more costly since you have to buy citric acid. Citric acid cost more than refilling a paintball tank.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Looks like a paintball Co2 system but probably more costly since you have to buy citric acid. Citric acid cost more than refilling a paintball tank.


Yup, its an aluminium cylinder that can keep the pressure of all the CO2 thats going to be generated immediately when the Citric acid and Baking Soda are mixed in the beginning itself rather than slowly using the 2 soda bottle systems. Like Hilde says, it is better to go with a paintball cylinder than this. It is cheaper initially and for refills as well.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Yup, its an aluminium cylinder that can keep the pressure of all the CO2 thats going to be generated immediately when the Citric acid and Baking Soda are mixed in the beginning itself rather than slowly using the 2 soda bottle systems. Like Hilde says, it is better to go with a paintball cylinder than this. It is cheaper initially and for refills as well.
> 
> Cheers,
> Hari


Is it cheaper? Depends on how long a paintball bottle will last in comparison and how much to fill where you live.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Is it cheaper? Depends on how long a paintball bottle will last in comparison and how much to fill where you live.


I think so. I have heard that the paintball tank usually lasts a few months (2 to 4 depending on bps). The video shows the usual 200g Citric Acid formula which wont last more than 2 weeks max. A 24Oz paintball tank costs 5 to 7 $ for a refill. But I think most importantly, the paintball tank will be much more consistent. I have seen the CA setup pressure increase and decrease as CA is being sucked into the BS bottle thus causing an increased bubble rate at a given needle valve setting.

Oh BTW, 12th day on my CA+BS setup, still going strong with pressure at 2 but no CA left.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Oh BTW, 12th day on my CA+BS setup, still going strong with pressure at 2 but no CA left.
> 
> Cheers,
> Hari


Sounds good. Was that at 1 bps. Can't remember.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Sounds good. Was that at 1 bps. Can't remember.


Yup 1 bps, 13th day today and pressure is at 1.75, still looking good.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Yup 1 bps, 13th day today and pressure is at 1.75, still looking good.
> 
> Cheers,
> Hari


Cool. I am still trying to get 14 days at 2 bps. Fingers crossed.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Cool. I am still trying to get 14 days at 2 bps. Fingers crossed.


Whats your tank size? I actually may not be even hitting 25 ppm with CO2. I re -positioned my powerhead to blow from the opposite end of the tank from the ceramic diffuser and it is now working out very well and the water current really dissolves the CO2 efficiently. I am making a DIY drop checker this weekend to help me maintain better CO2 levels more consistently.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Whats your tank size? I actually may not be even hitting 25 ppm with CO2. I re -positioned my powerhead to blow from the opposite end of the tank from the ceramic diffuser and it is now working out very well and the water current really dissolves the CO2 efficiently. I am making a DIY drop checker this weekend to help me maintain better CO2 levels more consistently.


It's a 10 gal I experiment things with. I aim for a 1 to a 1.5 degree pH drop to approximate 30 ppm co2. Give or take.


----------



## haril

14th day, still looking good at 1 bps. Pressure shows 1.25 though. I gave the BS bottle a good swirl resulting in a lot of CO2 bubbles in the BS bottle and slight increase in pressure. I started shutting the CO2 OFF the last 2 nights. I will run my next batch for 9 hours a day.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> 14th day, still looking good at 1 bps. Pressure shows 1.25 though. I gave the BS bottle a good swirl resulting in a lot of CO2 bubbles in the BS bottle and slight increase in pressure. I started shutting the CO2 OFF the last 2 nights. I will run my next batch for 9 hours a day.


Looks good. I am on day seven at 2bps for 8hrs a day and still going strong.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Looks good. I am on day seven at 2bps for 8hrs a day and still going strong.


Cool, good luck! My batch shutdown after 14 full days. Mixed a new batch with 220 grams of CA with 600 ml water. Let's see how this goes at 9 hours a day.


----------



## haril

*Solenoid valve*

The solenoid valve with a 1/4 inch female threading arrived today . I went to Home Depot and picked up two 1/4 inch to 1/8 barbed nozzle adapters but it refuses to budge after two turns. Maybe a mismatch with the threads? The adapters are high quality brass ones and I doubt they are at fault. This is really disappointing. Any thoughts? Jrill, how did your assembly go?









Cheers,
Hari


----------



## jrill

I didn't have any problems with it. Did you use pipe tape on the threads?
You may want to take it with you to the store to double check the fit to make sure the threads match. Mine had NPT threads.
Tapered threads do tend to be tight though. I did hold mine in a vice to put the fittings in.
This explains it better than I can
http://sizes.com/materials/pipeThrd.htm


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> I didn't have any problems with it. Did you use pipe tape on the threads?
> You may want to take it with you to the store to double check the fit to make sure the threads match. Mine had NPT threads.
> Tapered threads do tend to be tight though. I did hold mine in a vice to put the fittings in.
> This explains it better than I can
> http://sizes.com/materials/pipeThrd.htm


Thanks for that info. The valve on e-bay says it uses 1/4" NPT (national pipe thread) connections. The adapters that I bought say 1/4" MIP (male iron pipe) and from the information I could get on the net, MIP and NPT use the same threads. :confused1: :confused1:

I did take the solenoid valve with me to HomeDepot but could not actually try it there because the adapters are all sealed in a cover. I will need to check with an associate there.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## jrill

If you have an ace hardware near you I would go there. I find their staff knows more and a lot of their fittings are banded not bagged.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> If you have an ace hardware near you I would go there. I find their staff knows more and a lot of their fittings are banded not bagged.


Hmmm ACE is 9 miles away. I am going to try Home Depot again which is 3 miles away and check with some employees there first before going to ACE. Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> I didn't have any problems with it. Did you use pipe tape on the threads?
> I did hold mine in a vice to put the fittings in.


I did use pipe tape on the threads. Were you able to tighten it quite a bit way in using just your hands? It just goes in a couple of threads and stops even when I use a mini wrench. I did not hold it in a vice and try turning it hard.


----------



## jrill

No, it was only a couple of turns in if I remember right. I also had to redo it a second time because it leaked the first. Tight is normal with tapered fittings as long as your sure you have the right parts.


----------



## haril

Managed it to tighten a little more with the wrench. Probably 3 to 4 turns max is what I could do. Didnt have a vice to grab the aluminium block firmly enough to tighten more. Just tested it and looks to be working fine. No leaks so far. The 12V DC model that I have gets pretty hot as well after 30 mins or so. Hopefully it wont soften the air tubing enough to cause leaks. Maybe I should get some clamps.









Just realized how many wires and tubes I have in the cabinet below.. Geeze. Need to get a better shelving system in there than just one big open wasted space.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## jrill

Yep it does get pretty hot. I should mention that I had to add a cable tie on my output barb. Pressure blew it off once.


----------



## Hilde

Bump:


jrill said:


> Yep it does get pretty hot. I should mention that I had to add a cable tie on my output barb. Pressure blew it off once.


I just bought that solenoid too. Now wondering if I should have bought the 1 that comes from Hong Kong which has all the parts. Fortunately I do have an ACE near by. 

Now I am worried about the potential of fire. I may just go back to Excel. jrill haril are you worried about it causing a fire or melt down of the tubing? haril perhaps you shoud request a return?

Could you post a pic with cable tie holding the barb. Seems silicon would be a better fix.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Bump:
> I just bought that solenoid too. Now wondering if I should have bought the 1 that comes from Hong Kong which has all the parts. Fortunately I do have an ACE near by.
> 
> Now I am worried about the potential of fire. I may just go back to Excel. jrill haril are you worried about it causing a fire or melt down of the tubing? haril perhaps you shoud request a return?
> 
> Could you post a pic with cable tie holding the barb. Seems silicon would be a better fix.


I did not want to risk getting one from China especially a critical component like this and moreover it takes forever and returns would be a nightmare. This valve that I got looks good and after further reading I found that tapered threading does behave like this. 

I don't think the heat is a big concern for tube melt or a fire hazard as it is even used for propane gas pipes. It was on for 8 hours today and I just heard it click off now. It seems to be working fine and no leaks so far and seems to be cooling off fast.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Bump:
> I just bought that solenoid too. Now wondering if I should have bought the 1 that comes from Hong Kong which has all the parts. Fortunately I do have an ACE near by.
> 
> Now I am worried about the potential of fire. I may just go back to Excel. jrill haril are you worried about it causing a fire or melt down of the tubing? haril perhaps you shoud request a return?
> 
> Could you post a pic with cable tie holding the barb. Seems silicon would be a better fix.


It gets hot but not hot enough to start a fire. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that if I did it over again I might try the 12 volt version.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> It gets hot but not hot enough to start a fire. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that if I did it over again I might try the 12 volt version.


I have the 12V DC model and it gets hot as well.


----------



## haril

The solenoid valve switched on today and my bubble rate of 1.5 bps from yesterday was still held well. It took around 6 minutes to push its way out of the diffuser and everything looks fine and dandy. The valve is already hot though.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> The solenoid valve switched on today and my bubble rate of 1.5 bps from yesterday was still held well. It took around 6 minutes to push its way out of the diffuser and everything looks fine and dandy. The valve is already hot though.
> 
> Cheers,
> Hari


Awesome. And it gets hot pretty much right away. But I am sure you noticed just the black part gets hot, not the silver manifold.
I am on day ten by the way.


----------



## jrill

Success. Using the original formula and fixing the leaks My goal of 14 days at 2bps has been met. Today is day 14 and current pressure would only allow about 1 bps so I shut it down to remix.
To recap it will cost me $1.84 every two weeks to refill the bottles or $47 a year. IMO that's a pretty good alternative to a pressure system total cost wise and so much better than a yeast system.
I do plan to play around with the formula and will report if I can find a longer lasting mix.


----------



## Hilde

Got the solenoid. I am uncertain which side the output from bottle B goes into. I am using DIY Co2 kit 301. I would like to see some pics of how you connected the solenoid.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Got the solenoid. I am uncertain which side the output from bottle B goes into. I am using DIY Co2 kit 301. I would like to see some pics of how you connected the solenoid.


Your just going to come out the neddle valve on your bottle and into the solenoid.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Got the solenoid. I am uncertain which side the output from bottle B goes into. I am using DIY Co2 kit 301. I would like to see some pics of how you connected the solenoid.


The input side of the solenoid valve should be the side where you see 2 mounting screws under the aluminum block. I figured this out by looking at images of various similar solenoid valves which had a in out marking. 

That said, my CO2 bubble rate is getting very inconsistent after installing the solenoid valve. It is becoming increasingly painful to adjust and maintain the same 1.5 bps. The pressure building up and being released is probably effecting the output from such a small pressurized container which is not rigid like a metal cylinder. Sometimes when I check, the bps is very low and sometimes it is very high. At least before the solenoid valve, I needed to adjust just once when I turned it on manually. I checked for any leaks and didn't seem to find any. Today is the 9th day and I probably have around 20% CA left. I should probably replace the original super cheap needle valve that came with the kit with a better one.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> The input side of the solenoid valve should be the side where you see 2 mounting screws under the aluminum block. I figured this out by looking at images of various similar solenoid valves which had a in out marking.
> 
> That said, my CO2 bubble rate is getting very inconsistent after installing the solenoid valve. It is becoming increasingly painful to adjust and maintain the same 1.5 bps. The pressure building up and being released is probably effecting the output from such a small pressurized container which is not rigid like a metal cylinder. Sometimes when I check, the bps is very low and sometimes it is very high. At least before the solenoid valve, I needed to adjust just once when I turned it on manually. I checked for any leaks and didn't seem to find any. Today is the 9th day and I probably have around 20% CA left. I should probably replace the original super cheap needle valve that came with the kit with a better one.


Interesting. On mine the solenoid did not have that affect.


----------



## Hilde

Thanks haril and jrill!

I noticed that the needle valve can be screwed into the solenoid.

Bump:


haril said:


> my CO2 bubble rate is getting very inconsistent after installing the solenoid valve.


Perhaps then the solenoid valve is defective.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Thanks haril and jrill!
> 
> I noticed that the needle valve can be screwed into the solenoid.
> 
> Bump:
> Perhaps then the solenoid valve is defective.


The solenoid valve seems to be fine since it totally cuts off CO2 when closed. I think the trouble is with the needle valve that came with the CO2 kit which felt very flimsy from the start. Here is a picture of my setup.









I'll probably replace the plastic needle valve with this one - http://www.amazon.com/Hot-Max-24209-Replacement-Needle/dp/B00D86IEGA/


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> Here is a picture of my setup.
> View attachment 456897
> 
> I'll probably replace the plastic needle valve with this one - http://www.amazon.com/Hot-Max-24209-Replacement-Needle/dp/B00D86IEGA


You seem to have a lot of excess tubing. Or is it just like that in order to get a good picture? That might cause a problem with the pressure.

Also I noticed you got the 201 kit. The needle valve looked a bit flimsey to me, thus I got the 301 kit.

I am still learning about needle valves. What made you decide on that 1? I have found more info on needle valves here.

I might been able to get a paintball Co2 system for what I have spent on this system. I feel safer with this system though.
My cost list:
Co2 kit -------------------- 29.00
Steel check valve -------- 5.59
CO2 bubble counter ---- 5.50
Valve Control ------------- 1.00
Solenoid ------------------ 13.99
Citris Acid 5LB ----------- 15.95
Baking Soda 4LB --------- 2.37
Total ----------------------- 73.40

What about the rest of you commenting here?


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> You seem to have a lot of excess tubing. Or is it just like that in order to get a good picture? That might cause a problem with the pressure.
> 
> Also I noticed you got the 201 kit. The needle valve looked a bit flimsey to me, thus I got the 301 kit.
> 
> I am still learning about needle valves. What made you decide on that 1? I have found more info on needle valves here.
> 
> I might been able to get a paintball Co2 system for what I have spent on this system. I feel safer with this system though.
> My cost list:
> Co2 kit -------------------- 29.00
> Steel check valve -------- 5.59
> CO2 bubble counter ---- 5.50
> Valve Control ------------- 1.00
> Solenoid ------------------ 13.99
> Citris Acid 5LB ----------- 15.95
> Baking Soda 4LB --------- 2.37
> Total ----------------------- 73.40
> 
> What about the rest of you commenting here?


Yeah, I got the 201 kit. Yes, I need to reduce the tubing length and check. It was just that I didnt want to cut it up into too many small pieces. About the needle valve selection, nothing specific, just looking for quality stuff that can handle pressure.

About the cost incurred so far its around 62 dollars and thats without the Citric acid and baking soda but also includes a digital timer and ceramic diffuser. I should have just started off with a paintball tank thingy  but I will be able to resuse almost everything that I have so not a big deal. I'll just need to get the paintball tank, a good needle valve and a small paintball tank regulator which is not too expensive. I had listed out the parts previously in the thread.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> About the cost incurred so far its around 62 dollars and thats without the Citric acid and baking soda but also includes a digital timer and ceramic diffuser. I should have just started off with a paintball tank thingy  but I will be able to resuse almost everything that I have so not a big deal. I'll just need to get the paintball tank, a good needle valve and a small paintball tank regulator which is not too expensive. I had listed out the parts previously in the thread.


Digital timers are about $10 so you have outdone me. I will look for that thread. Didn't find it but found Needle valve by 



 that you recommended. Why aren't you getting that 1?

So you are eventually going to go the paintball route? I worry with those what would happen if the needle valve malfunctioned. Thoughts on that?


----------



## jrill

I've pretty much listed my costs. I like this system well enough to stick with it. I like tinkering with things and trying to make them more efficient sometimes to the point if spending too much. But that's what hobbies are about right. I won't go to a pressure system unless I go to a larger planted tank. Everything I have put into this I can reuse on a regulator build if I choose. When and if that happens this system would be an excellent back up to a gas setup.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Digital timers are about $10 so you have outdone me. I will look for that thread. Didn't find it but found Needle valve by PIC that you recommended. Why aren't you getting that 1?
> 
> So you are eventually going to go the paintball route? I worry with those what would happen if the needle valve malfunctioned. Thoughts on that?


I got a 2 pack digital timer for 15 bucks on Amazon so that's 7.50 a piece. I had listed the parts on this very same thread on 3/15/2015 so if you go back a few pages you should find it with links to Amazon. Yes the needle valve you stated above will also work very well I think. I'll probably get something like that or the one I pointed out now. 

Yes I am surely going to go the paintball tank way but note that I will have another regulator with a gauge attached 



 to the cylinder and then a high quality needle valve like this and then the solenoid. All of them should attach to each other via NPT threads. The only air tube will be out of the solenoid into the diffuser.


----------



## Hilde

I think I would have spent less if I had gotten the DIY unit that has a solenoid in it. I don't see them anymore on Ebay.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> I think I would have spent more if I had gotten the DIY unit that has a solenoid in it.


Sigh, I need to make a decision whether I should get a good needle valve and keep this DIY CO2 system for now or upgrade to a paintball tank where I can reuse most of the stuff I have. I have around 200g Citric acid left and I need to make the call now. I am just not happy with the inconsistent bps after the solenoid valve combined with the cheapo needle valve on the CO2 kit. I might just get a good needle valve for now and see how it goes with my current system.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Sigh, I need to make a decision whether I should get a good needle valve and keep this DIY CO2 system for now or upgrade to a paintball tank where I can reuse most of the stuff I have. I have around 200g Citric acid left and I need to make the call now. I am just not happy with the inconsistent bps after the solenoid valve combined with the cheapo needle valve on the CO2 kit. I might just get a good needle valve for now and see how it goes with my current system.


I understand. If it were me I would skip paintball. I am staying with my system for the foreseeable future but know that when I upgrade to a larger high tech planted tank I will go pressure. With that thought in mind all the components I have used on this system could be used to assemble a regulator. Good luck choosing.


----------



## haril

the mix lasted only 10 days this time at 9 hours a day @ 1.5 bps. Probably due to small leaks where the air tubing meets the brass barbed adapter which was getting hot and maybe softening the air tubing. I have now used zip ties to tighten it up. Filled up the bottles again, this time 200g CA with 550ml water.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> the mix lasted only 10 days this time at 9 hours a day @ 1.5 bps. Probably due to small leaks where the air tubing meets the brass barbed adapter which was getting hot and maybe softening the air tubing.


How about using a plastic barb. For the metal barb probably conducted the heat. Plastic 3/16 to 1/3 barb is what I got at a local hardware store.



jrill said:


> But I am sure you noticed just the black part gets hot, not the silver manifold.


So the silver part is getting hot too?


----------



## jrill

Just FYI, today because of you two talking about the solenoid heat I checked mine which I haven't done lately. It is hardly warm now, the black part. And that's after while being still on after eight hours. Odd I thought.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> How about using a plastic barb. For the metal barb probably conducted the heat. Plastic 3/16 to 1/3 barb is what I got at a local hardware store.
> 
> 
> So the silver part is gettin hot too?


Hmmmm, I didnt think of plastic since I thought even the aluminium (silver colored) part will get hot. The plastic adapter might get soft and leak as well since the aluminium block tends to get pretty hot as well.

The brass adapter doesnt get too hot but I think with the pressure of the CO2 when the valve is closed it might force a leak when it gets warm and the air tubing softens. The zip tie seems to be working well though. I am going to wait and watch for a week how this setup goes. I am getting too hassled trying out too many options :confused1: and its a pain to take apart the brass adapters, return them and look for plastic adapters now. Nice idea though to try plastic. I am sure it was more economical as well, each brass adapter was $ 3.40. Do let me how it works for you after a couple of weeks.

Bump:


jrill said:


> Just FYI, today because of you two talking about the solenoid heat I checked mine which I haven't done lately. It is hardly warm now, the black part. And that's after while being still on after eight hours. Odd I thought.


The heat dies off pretty fast once it is switched off. The black gets very hot and the aluminium part soaks up the heat as well. I should probably screw in a small aluminium sheet at the bottom to the two screw holes to act like a heat sink!


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> I should probably screw in a small aluminium sheet at the bottom to the two screw holes to act like a heat sink!


That may work. Mine is attached to a piece of aluminum to mount it on the plastic bar. 
V


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> That may work. Mine is attached to a piece of aluminum to mount it on the plastic bar.
> V


Is that some kind of a metering valve with the white knob that is partially visible after the solenoid valve?


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Is that some kind of a metering valve with the white knob that is partially visible after the solenoid valve?


Ahh. Yes. Did I mention I have a problem.  I like to tinker with stuff a little too much. Sometimes more than financially reasonable. Its a fabco needle valve.
http://cga320.com/fabco-nv-55-18-needle-valve.
I do a little more than necessary to cars too.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Ahh. Yes. Did I mention I have a problem.  I like to tinker with stuff a little too much. Sometimes more than financially reasonable. Its a fabco needle valve.
> http://cga320.com/fabco-nv-55-18-needle-valve.
> I do a little more than necessary to cars too.


So thats your dirty little secret for a consistent bps when the valve comes back on. :icon_evil:icon_smil. You have surely gone overboard with this DIY thingy 

I found this on Amazon and looks like its a finer control metering valve reasonably priced : PneumaticPlus-Push-Connect-Control-Valve. What do you think?


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> So thats your dirty little secret for a consistent bps when the valve comes back on. :icon_evil:icon_smil. You have surely gone overboard with this DIY thingy
> 
> I found this on Amazon and looks like its a finer control metering valve reasonably priced : PneumaticPlus-Push-Connect-Control-Valve. What do you think?


One of them. It still varies bps depending on pressure. Fluctuates between almost 2 to almost 3 bps some days. Don't know about the amazon one. This one looks interesting with a 10/32 to 1/4 reducer.
http://cga320.com/14-x-10-32-reducer-brass
http://cga320.com/smc-as1220-needle-valve
But no idea if it works good. I like the fabco. The dial is nice for my big fingers.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> I am sure it was more economical as well, each brass adapter was $ 3.40. Do let me how it works for you after a couple of weeks.
> 
> The heat dies off pretty fast once it is switched off. The black gets very hot and the aluminium part soaks up the heat as well. I should probably screw in a small aluminium sheet at the bottom to the two screw holes to act like a heat sink!


I have company coming in from Florida, thus am uncertain when I will get the system working. The plastic barbs were $1.25 each.

You could do a DIY heat sink with aluminum flash guard. Did see a few small 1s on fleebay from China for $3. I am getting 1 that comes from Minnesota for $6.

By the way found a swagelok needle valve NPT ¼ on fleebay for $15.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> The solenoid valve with a 1/4 inch female threading arrived today


Does yours run loud?


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Does yours run loud?


Yours is loud? Mine is silent.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Yours is loud? Mine is silent.


I accidentally plugged it in not connected to Co2 system and it was loud. So now I have hope when I get it set up it will silent.

Bump:


haril said:


> Sigh, I need to make a decision whether I should get a good needle valve and keep this DIY CO2 system for now or upgrade to a paintball tank where I can reuse most of the stuff I have.


I am thinking about doing that too. Here is what I think it would cost at Amazon
Co2 Dual Gauge Regulator -- 56.26
Adaptor adaptor ----------------- 9.99
24oz tank ----------------------- 25.89 
Total ------------------------------ 66.25


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> I accidentally plugged it in not connected to Co2 system and it was loud. So now I have hope when I get it set up it will silent.


Mine works silent. It only makes a clicking noise when it turns on and off. It should not matter if it is connected to anything.

I think I know what the problem is with my irregular bps when it turns on. It's mostly the cheapo plastic check valve. Ordered a good brass one. Goodbye budget.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> I think I know what the problem is with my irregular bps when it turns on. It's mostly the cheapo plastic check valve. Ordered a good brass one. Goodbye budget.


Steel check valve I bought on Ebay was only about $5.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Steel check valve I bought on Ebay was only about $5.


Yup same thing this time. All the small drops are adding up now


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> Mine works silent. It only makes a clicking noise when it turns on and off. It should not matter if it is connected to anything.


Okay. I plugged it in and it quieted down. It became very hot then popped. It is dead. I don't
know if it was defective or I connected to plug the wrong way. For the plugs prongs are the same size. Usually if the plug is connected the wrong way it pops at the connection. Does it look like I had it connected the right way? The next time I will cut a plug from a dead item, which is visibly positive and negative.


----------



## haril

Did you get a 12V DC model and supplied 110 V AC to it? If you got the 12v one like I did you need to use a DC power supply.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> Did you get a 12V DC model and supplied 110 V AC to it? If you got the 12v one like I did you need to use a DC power supply.


Got the Solenoid Valve 12V DC. I suspected it I wired wrong. Seller is sending me another 1.

Found an adaptor which has an output of 12V DC 750mA. Do you think that will work? The red wire is almost is wide as the 2 wires of the adaptor.

If followed the consept - that if you don't use an item for a year get rid of it - I wouldn't have it. LOL


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Got the Solenoid Valve 12V DC. I suspected it I wired wrong. Seller is sending me another 1.
> 
> Found an adaptor which has an output of 12V DC 750mA. Do you think that will work? The red wire is almost is wide as the 2 wires of the adaptor.
> 
> If followed the consept - that if you don't use an item for a year get rid of it - I wouldn't have it. LOL


I think that adapter should work. If I am not wrong the solenoid valve was rated at 4.5 watts. With 750ma at 12V you can run upto 9 watts. That said, the negative wire on your adaptor will usually have a white dashed line running along it. But It shouldn't matter in this case because the solenoid uses a coil where the +/- terminals doesn't count. Also at 12 v DC you will not pop it. It will only just not work. If you still want to make sure that you connect the negative to the black wire, see the notes printed on the adapter but you may have to cut open the jack at the end to follow the wires through to the end where they will be soldered.

Bump:


Oh wait I can see the white dashed line in your photo :icon_idea


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> I think that adapter should work. That said, the negative wire on your adaptor will usually have a white dashed line running along it.


Oh! I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. My concern though is that obviously the gauge of the wire from the solenoid has a larger gauge than the wire from the adaptor. I have registered with an electric forum. Perhaps after registering is complete I can get an answer to if it is okay to connect wires of different gauge.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Oh! I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. My concern though is that obviously the gauge of the wire from the solenoid has a larger gauge than the wire from the adaptor. I have registered with an electric forum. Perhaps after registering is complete I can get an answer to if it is okay to connect wires of different gauge.


You shouldn't have any problems running 750 ma. You should worry more about thinner gauge wires but in this case it's the adapters wires which are meant for that current and voltage, so IMHO no worries. My adapter is similar.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> You shouldn't have any problems running 750 ma. You should worry more about thinner gauge wires but in this case it's the adapters wires which are meant for that current and voltage, so IMHO no worries. My adapter is similar.


That is good to know. I feel more at ease now. Thanks a bunch.


----------



## Hilde

Calculating my cost vs Paintball setup I find the Paintball setup would have been only $16 more. Embarrasing but newbies need to know the experience of other newbies. Whether or not I continue with DIY Co2 after with the DIY I finish the Citric Acid I don't know. If I go with pressurized I will do the paintball for I am fearful of mishaps that could happen with a pressurized tank over 24oz. If I use a 24oz tank I would strap it down to the wall.

DIY Co2
Co2 kit --------------------- 29.00 
Steel check valve--------- 5.59
CO2 bubble counter ----- 5.50
Valve Control ---------------1.00 
Hose Barb -------------------1.27 
Thread Tape ----------------1.05 
Solenoid ------------------- 13.99 
Adaptor --------------------- 0.00
Digital Scale --------------- 8.02
Calibrating Weight ------- 2.75 
Subtotal ----------------------------- *60.15* 
Citris Acid 5lb ------------ 15.95
Baking Soda 4lb----------- 2.37 
Subtotal ------------------------------ *18.32*
*Total* -----------------------------*78.47*

*PAINTBALL SETUP* 
Steel check valve--------- 5.59
CO2 bubble counter ----- 5.50
Valve Control ---------------1.00 
Hose Barb -------------------1.27 
Thread Tape ----------------1.05 
Solenoid ------------------- 13.99 
Adaptor -------------------0.00
Sub total --------------------------- *28.40*
Regulator-----------------56.26
Adaptor--------------------- 9.99
24oz tank ---------------- 25.89
Subtotal ---------------------------- *66.25* 
Total---------------------------------- *94.65*
DIY Co2 ----------------------------78.47
Difference -------------------------16.18


----------



## jrill

There ya go. But if your going to take the dip, why not go all in. I see paintball stuff as still a stepping stone to a regular tank. If me, save your money till then. Your going to get there someday anyway.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> There ya go. But if your going to take the dip, why not go all in. I see paintball stuff as still a stepping stone to a regular tank. If me, save your money till then. Your going to get there someday anyway.


I am fearful of what would happen if the needle valve or pressure gauge would malfunction. I have got to check out you tube to see there are any examples of what would happen. For next week there is auction in which there will Co2 systems.


----------



## haril

You shouldn't take the cost of Citric acid and baking soda to compare the initial investment. Those are operating costs. You should compare that to say 7 to 10 $ for filling up the paintball tank after taking into consideration how long each set up lasts, etc.

That said, which regulator did you consider for the paintball setup? I would say you can still go with a 5000 PSI capable needle valve which you can get for under 15 bucks and keep the regulator investment for a regular CO2 tank. I feel keep it small if you are going paintball. That's the whole idea, but hey that's just me.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> You shouldn't take the cost of Citric acid and baking soda to compare the initial investment. Those are operating costs. You should compare that to say 7 to 10 $ for filling up the paintball tank after taking into consideration how long each set up lasts, etc.


Logically it seems the paintball Co2 last longer than citric acid Co2. I could be wrong that is something I need to research. Got to stop jumping in to projects. 


haril said:


> I would say you can still go with a 5000 PSI capable needle valve which you can get for under 15 bucks and keep the regulator investment for a regular CO2 tank. I feel keep it small if you are going paintball. That's the whole idea, but hey that's just me.


I want to keep it small. I just haven't had the time to understand info on needle valves.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Logically it seems the paintball Co2 last longer than citric acid Co2. I could be wrong that is something I need to research. Got to stop jumping in to projects.
> 
> I want to keep it small. I just haven't had the time to understand info on needle valves.


I think jrill did some math about the running costs a while ago on this same thread. You could check that.

About needle valves, I will get something like this and try: 
PIC Gauge NV-B-1/4-MXM Brass Needle Valve 1/4" Male NPT X 1/4" Male NPT Connection Size: Industrial Valves: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

So you will have paintball tank -> ASA valve with gauge -> Needle Valve -> Solenoid valve -> bubble counter -> diffuser


----------



## jrill

Well after my last remix after I was able to reach my goal of 14 days at 2bps for 8 hours a day I tested a revised formula. 
300g Citric Acid to 900 ml water
300g Baking Soda to 200 ml water

That mix only lasted 11 days.
Thinking out loud here, I think I need to make the Citric Acid side more potent. It seems that as the baking soda side produces more co2 it needs more and more Citric acid to continue. I have kept track daily of how much citric acid is used. Towards the end of the cycle it uses more and more to continue producing. So, i am going to try this.

300g Citric acid 600ml water
200g baking soda 200ml water.

Open to suggestions. IF all else fails I will be content with the original formula and the 14 days.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Thinking out loud here, I think I need to make the Citric Acid side more potent. It seems that as the baking soda side produces more co2 it needs more and more Citric acid to continue.
> 
> 300g Citric acid 600ml water
> 200g baking soda 200ml water.
> 
> Open to suggestions. IF all else fails I will be content with the original formula and the 14 days.


Seems as if the more baking soda the higher the output of Co2 but the life span is shorter as in the volcanoes kids make. 

I like that formula. Hope to get it restarted soon that. Since I don't have a solenoid at present going to turn the Co2 off with a gangplank, which is set before the needle valve. For probably will pick up some plants at an aquarium auction next week.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Well after my last remix after I was able to reach my goal of 14 days at 2bps for 8 hours a day I tested a revised formula.
> 300g Citric Acid to 900 ml water
> 300g Baking Soda to 200 ml water
> 
> That mix only lasted 11 days.
> Thinking out loud here, I think I need to make the Citric Acid side more potent. It seems that as the baking soda side produces more co2 it needs more and more Citric acid to continue. I have kept track daily of how much citric acid is used. Towards the end of the cycle it uses more and more to continue producing. So, i am going to try this.
> 
> 300g Citric acid 600ml water
> 200g baking soda 200ml water.
> 
> Open to suggestions. IF all else fails I will be content with the original formula and the 14 days.



Well my mix lasted 8 days this time with 200 CA and 550 water. so far the best result I got was with 200 g CA + 500 ml water that lasted me 14 days but this was before I got the solenoid and the CO2 was run without ever shutting off. I use to just reduce the bps manually to 0.75 in the nights. I have a strong feeling that the system is more stable without it being shut off and then on causing back pressure issues that maybe causing more intake of the CA and thereby more usage and burn out. I may just try and run it continuously this time to double verify.


----------



## haril

I stopped feeding the CO2 into my filter intake because every few hours I hear chopping noises from the impeller and a flood of bubbles would pour out of the outflow in the tank. Today, even before any chopping noises, I just shook the cannister filter side to side and there was chopping and then a continuous flow of bubbles from the outflow for a long time. I dont feel comfortable with so much CO2 sitting in my filter and the impeller wear and tear that may arise out of this.

Jrill, you may want to check your filter by tilting and shaking it for CO2 since you are injecting it into your filter intake as well. So now, my ceramic diffuser is back on the opposite side of the power head and it dissolves almost completely.


----------



## jrill

My filter does that too. Usually only when saturation is high. I am not worried about it though. I don't think it will cause problems on the impeller or shaft. 
As far as shutting off the flow at night I don't think it increases CA usage. I was marking the levels each day and it never moves when the system is off. I will keep that in mind though and look forward to hearing if your results are different.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> My filter does that too. Usually only when saturation is high. I am not worried about it though. I don't think it will cause problems on the impeller or shaft.
> As far as shutting off the flow at night I don't think it increases CA usage. I was marking the levels each day and it never moves when the system is off. I will keep that in mind though and look forward to hearing if your results are different.


It's not just the impeller but the amount of CO2 that's sitting inside the filter which may impact the bacterial growth inside. There was quite a bit of it yesterday.

The CA level never moves when it's off. I was talking about every time it is turned on after a long break and the back pressure builds up, etc.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> It's not just the impeller but the amount of CO2 that's sitting inside the filter which may impact the bacterial growth inside. There was quite a bit of it yesterday.
> 
> The CA level never moves when it's off. I was talking about every time it is turned on after a long break and the back pressure builds up, etc.


Gotcha. 
As far as back pressure when its off, I rarely see that. I think its happened twice and both times towards the end of the mix life. Generally my pressure stays between 2 and 4 on the gauge.

I did try an inside the tank reactor. The tom Barr one. Co2 levels were the same as through filter so I went back to that. Did not like the reactor in the tank anyway. Thought about an outside reactor but have not done it.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Gotcha.
> As far as back pressure when its off, I rarely see that. I think its happened twice and both times towards the end of the mix life. Generally my pressure stays between 2 and 4 on the gauge.
> 
> I did try an inside the tank reactor. The tom Barr one. Co2 levels were the same as through filter so I went back to that. Did not like the reactor in the tank anyway. Thought about an outside reactor but have not done it.


I am sure your million dollar needle valve is helping! :wink: I might just make a reactor myself once this settles.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> I am sure your million dollar needle valve is helping! :wink: I might just make a reactor myself once this settles.


Lol. I won't tell you about the new solenoid valve I have but have not installed yet. Not even sure why I bought it when the other is working just fine. Too much time on my hands I guess.


----------



## Jaxfisher

What system did you start with? Would you purchase it again? Thanks.


----------



## jrill

Jaxfisher said:


> What system did you start with? Would you purchase it again? Thanks.


I bought the unit with the solid blue plastic bar on eBay. It has a built in pressure gauge on one side and needle valve on the other. The seller was in New York and sold it with 200g of citric acid and baking soda. Pictures can be found in earlier posts.
And yes I would buy again.


----------



## Hilde

Jaxfisher said:


> What system did you start with? Would you purchase it again? Thanks.


I bought the pro-version of the DIY Co2 kit on fleebay I will not purchase it again. I wish I had just done the paintball Co2 system. Most don't use a regulator though and that scared me. Now after answers on tank malfunction here, not scared anymore.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> I bought the pro-version of the DIY Co2 kit on fleebay I will not purchase it again. I wish I had just done the paintball Co2 system. Most don't use a regulator though and that scared me. Now after answers on tank malfunction here, not scared anymore.


I wish I had gone the paintball tank way as well. Hilde, are you saying that you are not scared of not using a dual stage regulator and a paintball tank? Like I had mentioned earlier, if I go with a paintball tank, I would just buy the ASA regulator/valve and use a high pressure industrial needle valve. Once I exhaust my new 5 pounds of Citric acid, I will get a paintball cylinder. I read that thread you mentioned and I feel it is not dangerous if you are careful.

Another thought that crossed my mind is to have 2 needle valves inline to reduce the pressure in 2 stages for better and finer control. 

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> Another thought that crossed my mind is to have 2 needle valves inline to reduce the pressure in 2 stages for better and finer control.


I like th at idea of using 2 needle valves. I could use the needle valve from the kit and get another 1.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> I like that idea of using 2 needle valves. I could use the needle valve from the kit and get another 1.


what about using this first 

Amazon.com : U.P. Aqua Simple Regulator : Paintball Regulators : Pet Supplies

and then your existing needle valve inline after it?


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> what about using this first
> 
> Amazon.com : U.P. Aqua Simple Regulator : Paintball Regulators : Pet Supplies
> 
> and then your existing needle valve inline after it?


I don't think that is a high quality needle. I want a high quality needle valve with the low quality needle valve(DIY Co2 Kit)
I am leaning towards PneumaticFlow Control Valves. Just must have a 1000PSI for me to feel safe using it.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> I don't think that is a high quality needle. I want a high quality needle valve with the low quality needle valve(DIY Co2 Kit)
> 
> This is the needle valve I am thinking of getting.


Here is what I intend to do when I get a paintball cylinder. The parts are stacked with the top part attaching to the cylinder and the one below that attaching to it and so on..


----------



## Hoppy

If you put two needle valves in series it becomes very difficult to adjust them so both are dropping the pressure. A slight change in one needle valve will make the other one either do all of the pressure drop or none of it, or very close to that. Remember, the pressure drop across the needle valve depends on the flow through it. So, when you close down the second needle valve to reduce the flow, that reduced flow causes a smaller pressure drop across the first one. You will end up with a much harder adjustment procedure than with one needle valve.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> That may work. Mine is attached to a piece of aluminum to mount it on the plastic bar.
> V


Hoppy here there are 2 needle valves. I believe it is working fine. This could be done with a paintball setup.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Hoppy here there are 2 needle valves. I believe it is working fine. This could be done with a paintball setup.


Yes and no. The built in needle valve is run wide open. I only use it to close when refilling system so its really not being used as a needle valve but as a on/off valve.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Yes and no. The built in needle valve is run wide open. I only use it to close when refilling system so its really not being used as a needle valve but as a on/off valve.


This is similar to what I intend to do with a paintball tank. Only the last finer metering valve will be used to adjust the flow. The first brass needle valve closer to the cylinder will reduce the pressure after the ASA valve and will not be used to adjust the flow.

So I will have ASA VALVE -> Needle valve -> metering Valve


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> So I will have ASA VALVE -> Needle valve -> metering Valve


Want more info. PM'd. Are you going to make a thread on it? For don't want to hyjack this thread.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Want more info. PM'd. Are you going to make a thread on it? For don't want to hyjack this thread.


Yes I will start a thread when I buy the list of items and start assembling them. May be sometime next month. I will move this CA/BS setup to the smaller tank with the MonteCarlo carpet and run it 24/7.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> V


Where did you get your extra needle valve? Model number?


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Where did you get your extra needle valve? Model number?


from these guys. They are very nice to deal with. He answers email questions really fast.

http://cga320.com/fabco-nv-55-18-needle-valve


----------



## Hilde

Well got the solenoid connected as you suggested jrill. I have it sitting on some zinc metal elbows. They are keeping it cool. Bubbles rate not constant.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Well got the solenoid connected as you suggested jrill. I have it sitting on some zinc metal elbows. They are keeping it cool. Bubbles rate not constant.


Well, that counts as a victory. I have been keeping better track of pressure fluctuations and do adjust a tiny bit when it changes. I think its just something to live with. I have been seeing longer stretches of stable pressure with this last mix.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Well got the solenoid connected as you suggested jrill. I have it sitting on some zinc metal elbows. They are keeping it cool. Bubbles rate not constant.


I can never start the mix and forget about it. Even if the pressure is constant in the bottle, the bubble rate is never the same each time the solenoid turns on. I always end up opening the needle valve on the bottle a little more and then turning it back down to the 1.5 bps I want. I have concluded that even this DIY CO2 method does not work well if turned on and off. I remember it used to be much more constant before I got the solenoid. I think it is the low pressures of a system like this. I will setup my paintball tank next month and move this one to the smaller tank where I will run it 24/7 at 1 bps or so.

That said, I am on the 12th day today and I still have quite a bit of CA left.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## Hilde

This mixture have:
*Bottle A* 300g Citric Acid, 600ml Water 
*Bottle B* 200g Sodium Bicarb, 200ml Water 

What is yours Haris?


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> This mixture have:
> *Bottle A* 300g Citric Acid, 600ml Water
> *Bottle B* 200g Sodium Bicarb, 200ml Water
> 
> What is yours Haris?


My best brew is 200g CA + 500 ml Water and 200g BS with 200 ml water. I am pretty sure I will get at least 15 days this time. The first time I tried this mixture, I didnt have the solenoid valve and it lasted me 14 days 24/7 @ 1 bps or so.


----------



## Hilde

I set it up and went out. Came back in 5 hrs and found the CA empty.  Back to the drawing board. Leak seems to be where the check valve is screwed into the solenoid. I will have to change the setup.


----------



## jrill

Its definitely not a set and forget system but I kinda like that. But then again I am retired and have plenty of hobby time.


----------



## Audionut

I've had my setup running for a couple of days, and the thing I'm having trouble with is the build-up of CA in the BS bottle. It doesn't seem to be mixing well, and if I come along after a few hours and give it a shake, the pressure can rise around 1 bar.

I think I read in this thread that there should be a little diffuser as the stopper in the BS bottle. Is this correct, because I'm thinking it might be best without it, so that the CA mixes into the BS better?

edit: And don't forget to remove the CA line before dumping gas from the BS bottle. That just dumps the CA into the BS for even more fun.:icon_frow


----------



## jrill

Audionut said:


> I've had my setup running for a couple of days, and the thing I'm having trouble with is the build-up of CA in the BS bottle. It doesn't seem to be mixing well, and if I come along after a few hours and give it a shake, the pressure can rise around 1 bar.
> 
> I think I read in this thread that there should be a little diffuser as the stopper in the BS bottle. Is this correct, because I'm thinking it might be best without it, so that the CA mixes into the BS better?
> 
> edit: And don't forget to remove the CA line before dumping gas from the BS bottle. That just dumps the CA into the BS for even more fun.:icon_frow


Nothing at the end of the BS bottle. On mine its just an open tube. I don't see a large move of CA to BS until near the end of the mix cycle. Like day 10 or 11. I was seeing that earlier when I had leaks in the system and was loosing pressure. I have only needed to shake the bottles in the last day or so to get an extra day out of it. I am currently on day 12. Yesterday the remaining CA moved to BS side and pressure increased to 5 ish. I should see about another 4 or five days of output.


----------



## Hilde

Audionut said:


> I think I read in this thread that there should be a little diffuser as the stopper in the BS bottle. Is this correct?


I bottle A there is a ball, which I had 1st mistaken for a diffuser. In bottle B there is a 3 way valve. Is this what you have?


----------



## Audionut

Can you elaborate about the ball?

Whatever it is, I had it in the wrong bottle.


----------



## Hilde

Audionut said:


> Can you elaborate about the ball?


It is just a ball with a hole at the end. Goes in bottle A. Helps shake the solution up. Which is beneficial when you are building the pressure up. Starting it up, with valve open, solution goes into bottle a and then back to bottle a through the hole. If you don't see any solution going to bottle b, you shake bottle a with the valve open. Then open the valve.


----------



## jrill

I think that ball is just a weight to keep it on the bottom of the citric acid but I could be wrong.


----------



## Audionut

Some further research shows everyone using diffusers. This makes sense, since the diffuser needs some pressure to work, so rather then the CA being able to just trickle into the BS, there would be some (larger) pressure difference between the bottles first, before the CA goes into the BS.

I first tried without anything on either tube, and I had a similar experience. To much CA going into the BS without reaction. Walk along, give it a shake, and boom, lots of pressure buildup.

@jrill, above you mentioned 5ish. Do you let the pressure get to 5 bar (70 psi)?


----------



## Hilde

Well the system is putting out Co2 but it is not shutting off. Got to have it shutting off for when I switch to a paintball co2 system. My setup is Bottle A > Bottle B > Needle valve > Solenoid > Diffuser. Isn't this the way you all are doing it?

I only have 2 fish in the tank so they are okay with the Co2 being constant.

Well after 15 minutes it stopped. Is that normal?

Bump:


Audionut said:


> Some further research shows everyone using diffusers. This makes sense, since the diffuser needs some pressure to work, so rather then the CA being able to just trickle into the BS, there would be some (larger) pressure difference between the bottles first, before the CA goes into the BS.
> 
> @jrill, above you mentioned 5ish. Do you let the pressure get to 5 bar (70 psi)?


You mean you didn't put anything at the end of the tube in the tank?


----------



## Audionut

I should clarify. Diffuser, as in, the one on the end of the pipe in bottle A.

Originally I forgot to put anything on the pipes. Now I have a diffuser on the wrong pipe. 

Third times a charm!


----------



## Hilde

Audionut said:


> I should clarify. Diffuser, as in, the one on the end of the pipe in bottle A.


That is called an air block


----------



## Audionut

Yes, but "air block" isn't exactly descriptive (at least to the idiot sitting here typing this).

Everything I have seen has shown this air block to be a little diffuser. Can you share a photo of your ball with a hole at the end?


----------



## Hilde

Audionut said:


> Everything I have seen has shown this air block to be a little diffuser. Can you share a photo of your ball with a hole at the end?


Air block pic. Just click on the blue letters.


----------



## Audionut

Yes, that image isn't exactly descriptive either. Nevermind, obviously I lack the needed brain cells!


----------



## Hilde

Audionut said:


> Yes, that image isn't exactly descriptive either. Nevermind, obviously I lack the needed brain cells!


You will probably understand it another time.


----------



## boomstik

Hilde said:


> You will probably understand it another time.


Hilde, could you please describe the function of an air block in such setup? (Also, is "air block" just another term for an airstone?)

I'm pretty sure that ball is just there to keep the tubing at the bottom, otherwise it tends to curl up and eventually doesn't reach the last of the CA.

On another note, wanted to thank jrill for starting this thread, and all participants for keeping it going. I was skeptical about CA/BS CO2, but this thread inspired me to try it in lieu of the yeast setup, and just wow, this is so much better!


----------



## Hilde

boomstik said:


> Hilde, could you please describe the function of an air block in such setup? (Also, is "air block" just another term for an airstone?)


Yeh it helps hold the tube down. Also helps mix the elements. It is not an air stone. An air stone has more than 1 hole. The white ball has only 1 hole.


----------



## jrill

Audionut said:


> @jrill, above you mentioned 5ish. Do you let the pressure get to 5 bar (70 psi)?


I let it go as high as it wants. Mine has a built in safety release valve. Not sure how high it gets before it opens.
On the CA ball. When I clean the system I notice that you can blow through it without restriction. I have not seen any of the references to putting anything at the end of the BS tube.


----------



## jrill

Audionut said:


> Some further research shows everyone using diffusers. This makes sense, since the diffuser needs some pressure to work, so rather then the CA being able to just trickle into the BS, there would be some (larger) pressure difference between the bottles first, before the CA goes into the BS.
> 
> I first tried without anything on either tube, and I had a similar experience. To much CA going into the BS without reaction. Walk along, give it a shake, and boom, lots of pressure buildup.
> 
> @jrill, above you mentioned 5ish. Do you let the pressure get to 5 bar (70 psi)?


Looking at this again do you mean a diffuser in the tank? I have not seen any inside bs bottle. I don't run a diffuser in the tank either. I pipe into the intake on my eheim can at 2bps during the lights on period.


----------



## jrill

boomstik said:


> . I was skeptical about CA/BS CO2, but this thread inspired me to try it in lieu of the yeast setup, and just wow, this is so much better!


I agree. IMO CA/BS is far superior to yeast as a diy method.\\


----------



## Hilde

Today, day 1 after setting the system up, before lights and solenoid came on I noticed that the pressure was rising. Later a hose busted off the BA bottle. No air was coming out of the pressure release valvle. Obviously the pressure release valve is nor working. Guess I have to run this DIY Co2 without the solenoid. What a waste of money this kit has been for me. I hate to waste even a few dollars for I don't have a retirement plan.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Today, day 1 after setting the system up, before lights and solenoid came on I noticed that the pressure was rising. Later a hose busted off the BA bottle. No air was coming out of the pressure release valvle. Obviously the pressure release valve is nor working. Guess I have to run this DIY Co2 without the solenoid. What a waste of money this kit has been for me. I hate to waste even a few dollars for I don't have a retirement plan.


Sorry to hear that. Do you know how high the pressure was. I have had the pressure push a hose of a hose barb before the safety valve opened. In my case the valve was fine it just took less pressure to push off the hose then open the valve. I put a wire tie on the hose and have not had a problem since. I have seen my gauge read a bit over 5 into the red mark. I think I read the valve opens around 7 to 9 psi.

When I have had pressure rise like you described that meant I had a leak somewhere.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Do you know how high the pressure was. I have had the pressure push a hose of a hose barb before the safety valve opened. In my case the valve was fine it just took less pressure to push off the hose then open the valve. I put a wire tie on the hose and have not had a problem since. I have seen my gauge read a bit over 5 into the red mark. I think I read the valve opens around 7 to 9 psi.


My gauge only goes up to 5. It had been off since 11pm. I am just not running it with the solenoid.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> My gauge only goes up to 5. It had been off since 11pm. I am just not running it with the solenoid.


Same as mine. Goes to five but has gone over. The valve pop pressure is just what I've read. Its just spring loaded. I can tug on mine to make sure it opens.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Today, day 1 after setting the system up, before lights and solenoid came on I noticed that the pressure was rising. Later a hose busted off the BA bottle. No air was coming out of the pressure release valvle. Obviously the pressure release valve is nor working. Guess I have to run this DIY Co2 without the solenoid. What a waste of money this kit has been for me. I hate to waste even a few dollars for I don't have a retirement plan.


I keep reading your post. The solenoid is not the problem IMO. With the solenoid closed the system stops unless there is a leak somewhere. The only time CA moves to the BS side is when it is needed to equalize pressure between the two bottles. If no gas is leaving then the systems stops moving CA, unless there is a leak somewhere that lowers the pressure again.
Of course when that hose came off it made a major leak which is why all the CA moved then.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> I keep reading your post. The solenoid is not the problem IMO. If no gas is leaving then the systems stops moving CA, unless there is a leak somewhere that lowers the pressure again.


I don't think the problem is with the solenoid either. The system just kept putting out too much pressure to be shut off. From what you said I gather the system is activated by the movement of air. 

Got it setup again
AC is 250m with 500ml water
BC is 250m with 250ml water

The PSI keeps trying to go above the green. I have released the pressure 3xs. I am ready to throw this kit away. I tested with the bubble mixture and all was fine. Perhaps I need to decrease the CA? Got to take it down again before I go to bed or I'll be worrying about it.

Before I set it up again I will take every hose off and seal with thread tape. Found at thread on pressurized systems that there are different colors of thread tape. Green is for oxygen applications and yellow is for gas line use.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> I don't think the problem is with the solenoid either. The system just kept putting out too much pressure to be shut off. From what you said I gather the system is activated by the movement of air.
> 
> Got it setup again
> AC is 250m with 500ml water
> BC is 250m with 250ml water
> 
> The PSI keeps trying to go above the green. I have released the pressure 3xs. I am ready to throw this kit away. I tested with the bubble mixture and all was fine. Perhaps I need to decrease the CA? Got to take it down again before I go to bed or I'll be worrying about it.
> 
> Before I set it up again I will take every hose off and seal with thread tape. Found at thread on pressurized systems that there are different colors of thread tape. Green is for oxygen applications and yellow is for gas line use.


Are you saying that when you set it back up the pressure goes real high right away? Are any of the hoses blocked up at all.
For others reading the soap solution for leaks is critical. I use child's bubbles and a foam brush. You must whip up a ton of micro bubbles that adhere to the fittings. Watch those micro bubbles closely and if the grow you have a leak.
Hilde, the white tape is fine especially at the low psi we are working with.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> I don't think the problem is with the solenoid either. The system just kept putting out too much pressure to be shut off. From what you said I gather the system is activated by the movement of air. .


The mixing of the ca and bs activate it but it moves the ca to the bs by trying to stabilize the pressure between the two bottles by making more co2 gas.

Also check your bottle caps for leaks too. I even put tape on the bottles just to make sure they seal.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Are you saying that when you set it back up the pressure goes real high right away? Are any of the hoses blocked up at all.
> For others reading the soap solution for leaks is critical. I use child's bubbles and a foam brush. You must whip up a ton of micro bubbles that adhere to the fittings. Watch those micro bubbles closely and if the grow you have a leak.
> Hilde, the white tape is fine especially at the low psi we are working with.


At least 4xs after starting it the pressure went above the green area. I pulled the safety valve to get it to go to the low side. Everything seemed to working fine. Bubbles were going out of the diffuser. I saw a few tiny bubbles on the BA bubble after applying the soap. Guess I should have waited. Going to try tape or silicon around connections Sunday.

Bump:


jrill said:


> The mixing of the ca and bs activate it but it moves the ca to the bs by trying to stabilize the pressure between the two bottles by making more co2 gas.
> 
> Also check your bottle caps for leaks too. I even put tape on the bottles just to make sure they seal.


So if there is a leak the pressure decreases causing more CA to go to BS bottle?


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> I don't think the problem is with the solenoid either. The system just kept putting out too much pressure to be shut off. From what you said I gather the system is activated by the movement of air.
> 
> Got it setup again
> AC is 250m with 500ml water
> BC is 250m with 250ml water
> 
> The PSI keeps trying to go above the green. I have released the pressure 3xs. I am ready to throw this kit away. I tested with the bubble mixture and all was fine. Perhaps I need to decrease the CA? Got to take it down again before I go to bed or I'll be worrying about it.
> 
> Before I set it up again I will take every hose off and seal with thread tape. Found at thread on pressurized systems that there are different colors of thread tape. Green is for oxygen applications and yellow is for gas line use.



My pressure never goes above 3.5. If you release pressure, more CA will get sucked into the BS bottle because of decrease in pressure and the cycle will continue till you exhaust all of the CA. I set my pressure to 1.5 when I start and leave it. I have found 1.5 to be the best starting point. It touches 3 sometimes but is usually under 2. I am on the 14th day today and everything looks good with a little CA still left. I think I might break the record here . Remember if you release pressure, CA will get sucked in resulting in rapid generation of CO2 as the CA gets mixed with the BS. The only place I have used teflon tape is with the brass barbed adapter attaching to the solenoid. If you notice pressure increasing along with redcuing CA levels in a short time, with everything closed, you definetely have a leak and should do the soap solution test to be sure. If not it may just be caused by you releasing pressure constantly.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Bump:
> So if there is a leak the pressure decreases causing more CA to go to BS bottle?


Yes.
The system is always trying to keep the pressure the same in the two bottles.


----------



## jrill

jrill said:


> So, i am going to try this.
> 
> 300g Citric acid 600ml water
> 200g baking soda 200ml water.
> 
> Open to suggestions. IF all else fails I will be content with the original formula and the 14 days.


Well the above mix got me to 15 days. At least I am moving in the right direction. just mixed and started the new batch. This is what I am trying this time.

350g Citric acid 600ml water
200g baking soda 200ml water

As you can see I just increased the Citric Acid some more. I am testing if I continue to increase the CA will that make the reaction more potent, causing the system to need less CA to maintain pressure and therefore last longer. Now that's having fun.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Well the above mix got me to 15 days. At least I am moving in the right direction. just mixed and started the new batch. This is what I am trying this time.
> 
> 350g Citric acid 600ml water
> 200g baking soda 200ml water
> 
> As you can see I just increased the Citric Acid some more. I am testing if I continue to increase the CA will that make the reaction more potent, causing the system to need less CA to maintain pressure and therefore last longer. Now that's having fun.


You may also need to increase the baking soda as the more potent CA will eat into it more quickly. That said, today is day 15 for me and I still have CA left in the other bottle. I use 500g CA + 500ml water and 200g BS + 200ml water.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> You may also need to increase the baking soda as the more potent CA will eat into it more quickly. That said, today is day 15 for me and I still have CA left in the other bottle. I use 500g CA + 500ml water and 200g BS + 200ml water.


Yours is doing real good. Look forward to seeing how long it goes. I had more baking soda two mixes ago and it did not last very long so I cut back on it last mix and got the 15 days.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Are you saying that when you set it back up the pressure goes real high right away? Are any of the hoses blocked up at all.
> For others reading the soap solution for leaks is critical. I use child's bubbles and a foam brush. You must whip up a ton of micro bubbles that adhere to the fittings. Watch those micro bubbles closely and if the grow you have a leak.
> Hilde, the white tape is fine especially at the low psi we are working with.


Yes! After setting it up it immediately it started rising. It is possible that pressure was leaking out of the silicon tubes. Thus went and bought the black tube. Hope to get it up today.


----------



## haril

I hit 18 days with my mix and it may go for another day but the pressure is very low and I am not able hit 1.5 bps on day 19 so I am going to start a fresh mix. Pretty happy with this except that I still need to adjust after the solenoid comes on which defeats its purpose.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Yes! After setting it up it immediately it started rising. It is possible that pressure was leaking out of the silicon tubes. Thus went and bought the black tube. Hope to get it up today.


Something seems to be wrong. The tubing does not leak off a noticeable amount. When I start a new mix my pressure rises to between 2 and 3 on the gauge and will stay there for days. After I start it by squeezing bottle A I won't have any citric acid move for three or for days either.
If you can tell in the photo the line was full on 4-30 so its moved less than a 1/4" in 5 days.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> I hit 18 days with my mix and it may go for another day but the pressure is very low and I am not able hit 1.5 bps on day 19 so I am going to start a fresh mix. Pretty happy with this except that I still need to adjust after the solenoid comes on which defeats its purpose.


18 days is great. 
Mine stays fairly stable in the bps department from day to day but will fluctuate a tad. Somewhere between 1.75 to 2.5 bps but I can live with that.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> I use 500g CA + 500ml water and 200g BS + 200ml water.


That means your CA is 2.5 more than the BA. I am going to try that today, hopefully. First got to move some fish into other tanks.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> That means your CA is 2.5 more than the BA. I am going to try that today, hopefully. First got to move some fish into other tanks.


I just mixed my new mix with the same formula. One thing unique in my setup was that the Citric acid bottle was very slightly smaller than the Baking soda bottle. I am not sure if that helped in anyway or not. I now switched to the same size bottles now and noticed that it took me much longer to prime and get to the 1.5 pressure that i aim to start at. Lets see how it goes.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> I just mixed my new mix with the same formula. One thing unique in my setup was that the Citric acid bottle was very slightly smaller than the Baking soda bottle. I am not sure if that helped in anyway or not. I now switched to the same size bottles now and noticed that it took me much longer to prime and get to the 1.5 pressure that i aim to start at. Lets see how it goes.


Interesting on the bottle size. Keep us posted.


----------



## haril

A thought just crossed my mind. Will temperature play a role in pressure / bubble rate stability? My house thermostat cuts off at 11 PM and back on at 6:30 AM and room temperature may drop to 67 or so in winter nights and back to 73 in the morning.

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> A thought just crossed my mind. Will temperature play a role in pressure / bubble rate stability? My house thermostat cuts off at 11 PM and back on at 6:30 AM and room temperature may drop to 67 or so in winter nights and back to 73 in the morning.
> 
> Cheers,
> Hari


I did not notice any big changes in mine. Our place is 68 during day and 63 at night during winter.


----------



## Hilde

After the CA bottle has emptied in to the BA bottle, have any of you just restarted the CA and decreased the water in the BA bottle?


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> After the CA bottle has emptied in to the BA bottle, have any of you just restarted the CA and decreased the water in the BA bottle?


I have not.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> After the CA bottle has emptied in to the BA bottle, have any of you just restarted the CA and decreased the water in the BA bottle?


It will be of no use since all the baking soda would have all been used up. When you try to squeeze the last remaining bits of CA into the BS bottle after all he pressure has dropped, nothing happens even if you stir it vigorously because there is no BS left at least in my case.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> It will be of no use since all the baking soda would have all been used up. When you try to squeeze the last remaining bits of CA into the BS bottle after all he pressure has dropped, nothing happens even if you stir it vigorously because there is no BS left at least in my case.


That was my thought too.


----------



## Hilde

I recharged the system and let it sit for 30mins. Pressure stayed in the middle. Then I connected the system to the solenoid. The gauge showed the pressure slowly rising. I checked for leaks with the bubbles solution. Found leaks at the barbs on the solenoid. Thus took the solenoid out of the equation. Still the pressure continues to slowly increase. It is at 2.5 now. What is the highest your pressure has gotten?


----------



## Audionut

I've taken mine to 4 bar (4 kg/cm2 (58psi)). Research seems to suggest that coke bottles will explode somewhere near 120psi. My gauge has red marking a little over 6 bar (87 psi). I believe extended high pressures will also weaken the bottles, so you may want to change them over every now and then if you want high pressures.

Any talk of DIY co2 not being able to generate pressure needs to be relegated to the yeast method. I've accidentally dumped to much CA into BS, and then dumped the pressure from the system without rotating the CA bottle to ensure the feed line is out of the CA. Dumping the pressure rather quickly out of the system meant that, naturally, a bucket load of CA transferred into the BS bottle. Fun times!!!!!


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> I recharged the system and let it sit for 30mins. Pressure stayed in the middle. Then I connected the system to the solenoid. The gauge showed the pressure slowly rising. I checked for leaks with the bubbles solution. Found leaks at the barbs on the solenoid. Thus took the solenoid out of the equation. Still the pressure continues to slowly increase. It is at 2.5 now. What is the highest your pressure has gotten?


Mine always seems to rise and peak in the last third or so of a mix life before it drops back down. That's where I am at now with pressure sitting at 5 since yesterday.


----------



## Hilde

Audionut said:


> I've taken mine to 4 bar (4 kg/cm2 (58psi)). Research seems to suggest that coke bottles will explode somewhere near 120psi. My gauge has red marking a little over 6 bar (87 psi).


Thanks!! Now I feel less stressed about it. Pressure at 120psi/cm2 is 8.4kg. The pressure release on the gauge is suppose to go off at 4kg/cm2. It didn't though last time the pressure went above 5kg/cm2.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Mine always seems to rise and peak in the last third or so of a mix life before it drops back down. That's where I am at now with pressure sitting at 5 since yesterday.


Now I wonder when the pressure release will go off?


----------



## Hilde

Well a hose on the output of the CA started letting air out. This is causing the pressure to go down.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Now I wonder when the pressure release will go off?


Don't know, but its just spring loaded so I'm confident it will pop before a bottle will break. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.


----------



## Hilde

Well I finally found the root of my problems is a pin hole, which is not visible, on the part that screws over the output tube of Bottle A. Looks like something I had done with a wrench. I just find it strange that now the pressure goes down. When I pulled the release valve the pressure went up as it was suppose to.

I happen to have some epoxy so I dabbed some over the hole.


----------



## Audionut

Being a closed system the pressure will always want to be equal between the 2 bottles. So as we know, when the pressure is less in the BS bottle, more CA, more pressure, everything equal. 

With that little t-piece type thing in the BS bottle means that any pressure release from the CA bottle (leak or whatever) only allows air into the CA bottle. No chemicals to react to maintain pressure, total system pressure drops.


----------



## Hilde

Audionut said:


> Being a closed system the pressure will always want to be equal between the 2 bottles. So as we know, when the pressure is less in the BS bottle, more CA, more pressure, everything equal.
> 
> With that little t-piece type thing in the BS bottle means that any pressure release from the CA bottle (leak or whatever) only allows air into the CA bottle. No chemicals to react to maintain pressure, total system pressure drops.


Why then when I pulled the release valve, which is just a few inches above the hole, did all of CA flow into BS bottle?


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Why then when I pulled the release valve, which is just a few inches above the hole, did all of CA flow into BS bottle?


If you release alot of pressure quickly the unit needs to equalize pressure. It needs the ca to do that to cover the drop by mixing the ca and bs to recover the pressure losts.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Interesting on the bottle size. Keep us posted.


My bps is much more stable after I started using the exact same bottle size but still not perfect. I adjust it now once in 3 or 4 days instead of everyday. Still does not give me the comfort factor of set and forget even with the Solenoid. I would say ditch the solenoid with this system and just run 24/7 and save some money.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> My bps is much more stable after I started using the exact same bottle size but still not perfect. I adjust it now once in 3 or 4 days instead of everyday. Still does not give me the comfort factor of set and forget even with the Solenoid. I would say ditch the solenoid with this system and just run 24/7 and save some money.


I still like the solenoid and having it turn off at night. I do make adjustments but they are minor.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> I still like the solenoid and having it turn off at night. I do make adjustments but they are minor.


Yeah, the automatic turning off at night is one thing that works well but I think the solenoid is a cost overkill if it works reliably only for switching off, but hey its the systems limitations.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Yeah, the automatic turning off at night is one thing that works well but I think the solenoid is a cost overkill if it works reliably only for switching off, but hey its the systems limitations.


I hear ya. It is over kill on a diy system but it has been fun trying to tinker with it. The extra stuff I added can all be used on a pressure system so I see it as an investment in the future, or a return to my past.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> I hear ya. It is over kill on a diy system but it has been fun trying to tinker with it. The extra stuff I added can all be used on a pressure system so I see it as an investment in the future, or a return to my past.


Exactly, I have almost all the parts for my paintball tank system except for one flow control valve. Once that comes, I will use the solenoid valve with that and move this CA/BS system to my 10 gallon and run it 24/7.

The 10 gallon is growing a MonteCarlo carpet in an emmersed setup and has fully carpeted without any CO2. Just high light in an airtight humid aquarium. Super easy maintenance, no CO2, nutrients and algae worries :bounce:. But when I add water, I will use the CA/BS system there. I will start a new thread for my paintball system and also that tank shortly.


----------



## Audionut

Hilde said:


> Why then when I pulled the release valve, which is just a few inches above the hole, did all of CA flow into BS bottle?


You have a faulty unit. I'm not sure the exact setup you are using, but you do not want more CA flowing into BS under an emergency relief.

Think about it, it's retarded. Pressure releases in an emergency condition, only for more CA to mix with BS. More CA into BS = more pressure.

Dump pressure to make more pressure.:icon_frow


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Why then when I pulled the release valve, which is just a few inches above the hole, did all of CA flow into BS bottle?


Isn't the pressure release valve on top of the CA bottle? In this case it reduces the pressure from the CA bottle instantly and should not push CA over to the BS bottle. Like others have said, CA gets sucked into the BS bottle when the pressure in the BS bottle reduces which is via the outlet to the tank or any leak that side. Thats my understanding.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> Exactly, I have almost all the parts for my paintball tank system except for one flow control valve. Once that comes, I will use the solenoid valve with that and move this CA/BS system to my 10 gallon and run it 24/7.


I don't think it is safe to use the solenoid on the paintball system when it doesn't have a pressure regulator. For at paintball thread at #2172 by Bettatail," Jaggedfury's paintball co2 setup is not a pressure regulated valve but a flow control valve, a solenoid can not be attached or something will burst.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> I don't think it is safe to use the solenoid on the paintball system when it doesn't have a pressure regulator. For at paintball thread at #2172 by Bettatail," Jaggedfury's paintball co2 setup is not a pressure regulated valve but a flow control valve, a solenoid can not be attached or something will burst.


That doesn't make sense. All a solenoid does is stop the flow. If you can't stop the flow how would you get a full canister home. Unless your using a solenoid not rated for the pressure behind it. I read it but don't get it.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> I don't think it is safe to use the solenoid on the paintball system when it doesn't have a pressure regulator. For at paintball thread at #2172 by Bettatail," Jaggedfury's paintball co2 setup is not a pressure regulated valve but a flow control valve, a solenoid can not be attached or something will burst.


I read that and I cannot understand why the Solenoid will not work with a paintball system if the pressure fed to the solenoid is within its limits. Moreover, I am using a high grade needle valve to first bring down the pressure followed by a pneumatic flow control valve which is only then fed to the solenoid. So my own home grown dual stage control but not a real dual stage regulator which is much better than having a home depot needle valve holding back almost 1000 PSI.


----------



## haril

*paintball tank setup plan*

Couldn't wait any longer to post my plan for the paint ball setup - 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=7855753

:hihi:

Cheers,
Hari


----------



## Hilde

I hate this system. Keeping getting air out on output of CA bottle. Used epoxy, and silcone. Just put some super glue arount the top of the cap where I feel air. No bubbles but feeling air.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> I hate this system. Keeping getting air out on output of CA bottle. Used epoxy, and silcone. Just put some super glue arount the top of the cap where I feel air. No bubbles but feeling air.


It could be that you got a faulty piece because it can't be that bad. Fortunately I only had a tiny leak but that was one of the joints I had made with the barbed hose adapter but was quickly solved with a zip tie.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> I hate this system. Keeping getting air out on output of CA bottle. Used epoxy, and silcone. Just put some super glue arount the top of the cap where I feel air. No bubbles but feeling air.


Sad your still having trouble. One reason I chose the system with the solid bar connecting the bottles was it looked less prone to leaks. Glad I did.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> It could be that you got a faulty piece because it can't be that bad. Fortunately I only had a tiny leak but that was one of the joints I had made with the barbed hose adapter but was quickly solved with a zip tie.


Yeh I think I got a faulty cap. To late to complain to the seller. I put a paintbrush with bubbles near the top and the sound of air got louder. I am using Co2 tubing now so it is not a problem with old tubing. 

This thread has been very helpful to me. For now I am being more cautious. I charge the bottles and wait before connecting them to the output tubes. Thus not wasting CA and BA. I have found if I loosen the cap fast BS goes to CA. Slowly loosening the cap causes no action.

I put thread tape around the tubes which the hoses connect on of CA bottle. It has been sitting for and hour and seems to be holding. Hoping when I connect it, tomorrow, it will work.


----------



## Hilde

I will moving to Paintball Co2 system soon. Even with 2 needle valves it will be aprox $18 less than this Citric acid Co2 system. Also to refill the tank is cheaper than buying citric acid. Just wonder if it will last as long as I have read. The citric acid Co2 system is not lasting as long as I had read before this thread was created. Only trial and error will show. I may continue with the Citric Co2 system on my low light tank.

Well with the addition of adaptors the cost is $1 more than the citric co2 with a soleonid. Then with extras I wanted it cost $34 more. In the long run it will probably be cheaper to run than the citric acid Co2 system. For refills are only $5.

The graph below shows that the citric Co2 system last longer on small thanks than large tanks. So when using it in a 10g tank what is the *longest time* it has run before refilling? What was the CA mixture?


----------



## jrill

jrill said:


> 350g Citric acid 600ml water
> 200g baking soda 200ml water


Pressure is gone this morning. The above mix lasted 21 days, 8 hrs a day at 2bps. Not bad. I will post later the mix I am trying this time.


----------



## jrill

So here is the new mix.
A - CA 400g to 600 ml water
B - BS 300g to 200 ml water


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Pressure is gone this morning. The above mix lasted 21 days, 8 hrs a day at 2bps. Not bad. I will post later the mix I am trying this time.


Geeze you beat my 18 days! Good for you; that too at 2 bps. roud:

I am on my 17th day and there is no CA left but there is enough pressure to go on for a day more but I am disconnecting it to attach the paintball system today.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> Geeze you beat my 18 days! Good for you; that too at 2 bps. roud:
> I am on my 17th day and there is no CA left but there is enough pressure to go on for a day more but I am disconnecting it to attach the paintball system today.


Is that with the mixture you poste 3-24?
200g CA + 500 ml water 
200g BS + 200ml water
1 bps


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Is that with the mixture you poste 3-24?
> 200g CA + 500 ml water
> 200g BS + 200ml water
> 1 bps


Yes, same formula but at almost 1.5 bps 8 hours a day.


----------



## Hilde

I have it running for 2 days. When I come home no co2 is coming out. I have to turn the needle valve up. Might have to run it without the solenoid. Something I have to try when home all day for I generally leave a few hours before the lights come on. Must make certain that the fish, 8 Gold Skirt Tetra, will not suffer.


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> I have it running for 2 days. When I come home no co2 is coming out. I have to turn the needle valve up. Might have to run it without the solenoid. Something I have to try when home all day for I generally leave a few hours before the lights come on. Must make certain that the fish, 8 Gold Skirt Tetra, will not suffer.


I had mentioned this issue with my setup with the solenoid valve. This system is just not meant to be shut off and on with a solenoid. Just leave it running 24/7 @ around 1 bps. I just finished connecting my paintball tank and going to be running it 24/7 as well.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> I had mentioned this issue with my setup with the solenoid valve. This system is just not meant to be shut off and on with a solenoid. Just leave it running 24/7 @ around 1 bps. I just finished connecting my paintball tank and going to be running it 24/7 as well.


I think will just put it on before I leave for the day. For just move 8 gold skirt tetra in the tank, 20g high. Concerned that it is a bit to many fish for amount of plants.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> I had mentioned this issue with my setup with the solenoid valve. This system is just not meant to be shut off and on with a solenoid. Just leave it running 24/7 @ around 1 bps. I just finished connecting my paintball tank and going to be running it 24/7 as well.


I use a solenoid and it has never been a problem. Works perfect. I still believe that if the system keeps producing pressure when the solenoid closes then there is a leak somewhere.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> I use a solenoid and it has never been a problem. Works perfect. I still believe that if the system keeps producing pressure when the solenoid closes then there is a leak somewhere.


I am 100% sure I never had a leak and I dont have pressure build up when it closes. I hit 18 days now for a second time although the bps never maintains itself 75% of the time when the solenoid comes back on. I always need to fiddle with the valve again. I'd rather leave it on 24/7 but you may never get close to 18 days.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> I am 100% sure I never had a leak and I dont have pressure build up when it closes. I hit 18 days now for a second time although the bps never maintains itself 75% of the time when the solenoid comes back on. I always need to fiddle with the valve again. I'd rather leave it on 24/7 but you may never get close to 18 days.


I gotcha ya. It does need to be adjusted most days as the pressure changes. I thought you were saying the system did not work with a solenoid.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> I gotcha ya. It does need to be adjusted most days as the pressure changes. I thought you were saying the system did not work with a solenoid.


That is what I said. I turned the system on and adjusted the needle valve to 1.5bps. Turn everything off and 5 min. later turned it on. No bubbles came out. Thus running it without the solenoid. Still feeling some air from output of CA bottle.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> That is what I said. I turned the system on and adjusted the needle valve to 1.5bps. Turn everything off and 5 min. later turned it on. No bubbles came out. Thus running it without the solenoid. Still feeling some air from output of CA bottle.


I guess I am not understanding. When the solenoid closes there may be some pressure build up depending on when ca was last moved to bs. Pressure then equalizes and reaction stops. Open the solenoid and gas flows and the process resume. Does yours not do that? 
Just trying to understand the issue your having.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> I guess I am not understanding. When the solenoid closes there may be some pressure build up depending on when ca was last moved to bs. Pressure then equalizes and reaction stops. Open the solenoid and gas flows and the process resume. Does yours not do that?
> Just trying to understand the issue your having.


No!! When it restarts no bubbles come out. I have to reset the needle valve and then it restarts.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> No!! When it restarts no bubbles come out. I have to reset the needle valve and then it restarts.


Interesting. Do you think it may be a problem with the needle valve?


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Interesting. Do you think it may be a problem with the needle valve?


Probably. For even though I have a leak the pressure is good. 

Seems the post that the tube fits on is not big enough. For even though the tube completely covers the post I feel air coming out under the hose. Last night found water in the back of the tank where the bottles are. Yet the pressure is staying at 4


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> Probably. For even though I have a leak the pressure is good.
> 
> Seems the post that the tube fits on is not big enough. For even though the tube completely covers the post I feel air coming out under the hose. Last night found water in the back of the tank where the bottles are. Yet the pressure is staying at 4


Did you use zip ties? That helped me a lot.


----------



## jrill

haril said:


> Did you use zip ties? That helped me a lot.


Zip ties do help a lot on the hose barbs. I got curious though and switched to the push to connect fittings. Awesome.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Zip ties do help a lot on the hose barbs. I got curious though and switched to the push to connect fittings. Awesome.


Wish I had thought of that. Read about it but didn't understand the placement of them. Well to late for that, for the CA is gone. Still have Co2 coming out so I will leave it on tonight.


----------



## Hilde

Well I am setting up the system again. Bought some citric acid at walmart. I put zip ties around the tubing on the hose barbs of the CA bottle and epoxy too.


----------



## Hilde

Finally no leaks. Wish I hadn't used the epoxy for I still smell it in my small apt. Running it 24/7. Had to adjust the needle valve this mourning. Really poor needle valve. I got the pro version instead of the basic for I thought the needle valve would be better since it is metal.


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> Finally no leaks. Wish I hadn't used the epoxy for I still smell it in my small apt. Running it 24/7. Had to adjust the needle valve this mourning. Really poor needle valve. I got the pro version instead of the basic for I thought the needle valve would be better since it is metal.


Glad to hear the leaks are gone. Hope it works better for you this time. Mine is still going strong on the last mix.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> I started at the beginning of February with the goal of achieving 14 days of production at approximately 2.0bps before I needed to replace the powder mixes.
> 
> Citric Acid System w/ball valve or solenoid $45.00
> By buying Citric Acid and Baking Soda 50lbs at a time on Amazon a powder charge will cost me $1.50 every nine days.


Mathically I figure using 200g of citric acid for 18 days will use 10lbs per year. Converting grams to oz does not give exact amount of what is used though. Thus wondering how many times you can add 250g from a 5lb (1/10 of 50lbs) bag of citric acid?


----------



## Audionut

5lbs / 250g = 9.


----------



## Hilde

Audionut said:


> 5lbs / 250g = 9.


Mathically that is true for 5lbs = 2268/250 = 9
But according to this chart 1 gram of citric acid = 10.8 Tbs. A conversion chart shows 10.8Tbs = 162 grams mythically. This does not consider the actual grain weight.


----------



## jrill

Not sure what your saying since we are talking weights. So 9 is the answer.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Not sure what your saying since we are talking weights. So 9 is the answer.


okay I get it now.

Since on the bottles you see oz and grams, I got confused.


----------



## Hilde

The CA output started leaking again so I had to put another zip tie on it above the other zip tie. Just got another cap from China. So when it is empty I will replace it and hopefully no more leaks. For I want to use this system to reestablish my 20g long low tech after I break it down.

I turn it off at night. Then in the mourning I see water has drained out of the bubble counter and I have to refill it. Has anybody else had this problem?


----------



## jrill

Hmm. Never had that from a bubble counter. Is there anything between the bubble counter and the baking soda bottle.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Hmm. Never had that from a bubble counter. Is there anything between the bubble counter and the baking soda bottle.


I have had the check valve before the bubble counter and after the bubble counter and it still happened.

A couple of days ago I had my water checked an all parameters were good. Yet when I got home I found a fish dead. It could only have been from the Co2 which I had running a 24/7 1bps. So started turning it on when I left for the day and off when the lights went off, 13hrs. Co2 was on at 9am and lights came on at 11am to 10pm with a 3hr siesta. This mourning found another fish dead. Guess the only thing to do now is to run it a few hours at night until I get more stem plants planted.

Has anyone had fish die from using this Co2 system?


----------



## Hilde

bump


----------



## haril

Hilde said:


> I have had the check valve before the bubble counter and after the bubble counter and it still happened.
> 
> A couple of days ago I had my water checked an all parameters were good. Yet when I got home I found a fish dead. It could only have been from the Co2 which I had running a 24/7 1bps. So started turning it on when I left for the day and off when the lights went off, 13hrs. Co2 was on at 9am and lights came on at 11am to 10pm with a 3hr siesta. This mourning found another fish dead. Guess the only thing to do now is to run it a few hours at night until I get more stem plants planted.
> 
> Has anyone had fish die from using this Co2 system?


I have a check valve before the bubble counter and I always found a little water from the bubble counter drained into the tube but not completely after a few hours of the solenoid switching off. This inspire of me using a more expensive stainless steel check valve. I don't hv the problem now because I run it 24/7. 

I doubt your fish deaths are because of the CO2. Did you see your other fish stressed or gasping at the surface? I suggest you test your water for pH and kH to determine the amount of CO2 in your water. I run my paintball setup 24/7 in my 37 gallon and everything is fine including a bunch of platy fry in a floating nursery. It maintains a CO2 level of around 20 to 25 ppm.


----------



## jrill

+1 what haril said. C02 build up seems unlikely from what you described.


----------



## Hilde

haril said:


> This inspire of me using a more expensive stainless steel check valve. I don't hv the problem now because I run it 24/7.
> 
> I doubt your fish deaths are because of the CO2. Did you see your other fish stressed or gasping at the surface? I suggest you test your water for pH and kH to determine the amount of CO2 in your water. I run my paintball setup 24/7 in my 37 gallon and everything is fine including a bunch of platy fry in a floating nursery. It maintains a CO2 level of around 20 to 25 ppm.


I have the stainless steel check valve on the input. I may put another 1 on the output. Every 2 days the water int the bubble counter gets near the tube input tube.

None of the fish are gasping at the surface.


----------



## Audionut

Hilde said:


> Has anyone had fish die from using this Co2 system?


No, but it's very easily accomplished.


----------



## ecotanker

Great thread! I am trying this method now and am thinking of using a Serges type reactor to dissolve all the CO2. Has any one have experience with using this CO2 method and a reactor?


----------



## zer0signal

Hey Guys, I have been following along silently for a while. I have purchased 1 D501 unit a while back, and its been working great. So I picked up another unit for my 2nd tank, problem is it is just consuming the CA in 48hrs while PSI just climbs 3+... 

I am using the same mix as my currently working unit, I have even submersed the unit that is consuming all the CA in 48hrs in a 5gallon bucket filled with water, looking for air bubbles. I was unable to locate any leaks using this method, I am completely stump'd at what may be causing this? Any suggestions or ideas?


----------



## Stone454

zer0signal said:


> Hey Guys, I have been following along silently for a while. I have purchased 1 D501 unit a while back, and its been working great. So I picked up another unit for my 2nd tank, problem is it is just consuming the CA in 48hrs while PSI just climbs 3+...
> 
> I am using the same mix as my currently working unit, I have even submersed the unit that is consuming all the CA in 48hrs in a 5gallon bucket filled with water, looking for air bubbles. I was unable to locate any leaks using this method, I am completely stump'd at what may be causing this? Any suggestions or ideas?


Use some soapy water on all the places the co2 might be escaping, hose fittings and caps and so on, you could use the bubble mix like kids use for blowing bubbles


----------



## jrill

Stone454 said:


> Use some soapy water on all the places the co2 might be escaping, hose fittings and caps and so on, you could use the bubble mix like kids use for blowing bubbles


Yes, try the kids bubbles with a foam brush
Whip up a lather around the fittings and see if they grow. You defiantly have a leak somewhere.
Check carefully where the bottles screw in. Those washers they use tear easily. I even put Teflon tape on the bottle threads.


----------



## zer0signal

I did fill up a squirt bottle with soapy water, and soak the valves, joints, and cap. I didn't see anything. Also replaced the orings for the 2litter bottles (did not use teflon yet).

I used to use the water a tub method when I worked in automotive w/ tires for pin hole leaks.

But this morning i pulled everything out of the tank, lines, bubble counter, diffuser, check valve. and put everything in the 5G bucket, I think there maybe a leak where the co2 tube runs into the check valve. I would have thought if that was the case it would have noticed it w/ pressure loss from the diffuser. But I am going to leave the check valve out for now and see if it changes the consumption rate.

Worst case it does not and i put it back on in 48hrs, best case it solves it and i get some zip ties or get something better than these cheap $2 check valves.


----------



## jrill

zer0signal said:


> I did fill up a squirt bottle with soapy water, and soak the valves, joints, and cap. I didn't see anything. Also replaced the orings for the 2litter bottles (did not use teflon yet).
> 
> I used to use the water a tub method when I worked in automotive w/ tires for pin hole leaks.
> 
> But this morning i pulled everything out of the tank, lines, bubble counter, diffuser, check valve. and put everything in the 5G bucket, I think there maybe a leak where the co2 tube runs into the check valve. I would have thought if that was the case it would have noticed it w/ pressure loss from the diffuser. But I am going to leave the check valve out for now and see if it changes the consumption rate.
> 
> Worst case it does not and i put it back on in 48hrs, best case it solves it and i get some zip ties or get something better than these cheap $2 check valves.


Just so were on the same page, these leaks can be very slow. Just applying soapy water does not always show the leak. Whipping up a fine lather around the fitting is key.


----------



## zer0signal

jrill said:


> Just so were on the same page, these leaks can be very slow. Just applying soapy water does not always show the leak. Whipping up a fine lather around the fitting is key.


Ok, I just got it back up and running. The closest I have is dawn dish soap, so Ill create a nice soapy lather and paint brush it on in a few.


----------



## jrill

zer0signal said:


> Ok, I just got it back up and running. The closest I have is dawn dish soap, so Ill create a nice soapy lather and paint brush it on in a few.


I soak the brush then whip it up right on the fittings. You want the bubbles sticking to whatever your checking then watch closely.


----------



## Hoppy

jrill said:


> I soak the brush then whip it up right on the fittings. You want the bubbles sticking to whatever your checking then watch closely.


Wait about 5-10 minutes and look for tiny collections of bubbles. Leaks that are very serious in a CO2 system can be extremely slow leaks, so it takes time to find them.


----------



## zer0signal

Well, I couldn't find anything around any of the parts that seal (needle valve, pressure gauge, bottle connections). But after removing that check valve, and a fresh new batch, the CA has only moved 1/8in in 24hrs. 

Also noticed that the tubing in the BS bottle was not as long as the one that is working correctly; so i replaced that piece and put a longer one on it. 

So far looking good, if this doesn't fix it though. I am just going to get a mini paintball setup for the 40G, and keep the working CA and BS setup on my 36G.


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## jrill

Sounds better. Hope is works out.


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## jrill

Today was the last day on the charge of: Was good for 30 days, 2bps for 8 hours a day.

Bottle A = Citric Acid 400g to 600ml water
Bottle B = Baking Soda 300g to 200ml water

Lasted 30 days, but.... I was out of town during the last week that it ran so I can not say for sure that it ran for 2bps the whole time during that week. So I am going to restart today using the same ratios and see if I can duplicate this result. Stay tuned if anyone is still interested. :hihi:


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## Mikhail

I have following this thread closely. 

It inspired me to try out this equipment titled 

"Pro DIY Co2 Generator System Kit Aluminum Alloy with Bubble Counter Check Valve".

I will try with the that last recipe and will post if I get any sort of similar results.

Hmm. Pressure seems a bit low:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrDmQrvtYzQ&feature=youtu.be

Installed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPO6unQ0Iv0&feature=youtu.be


----------



## jrill

Mikhail said:


> I have following this thread closely.
> 
> It inspired me to try out this equipment titled
> 
> "Pro DIY Co2 Generator System Kit Aluminum Alloy with Bubble Counter Check Valve".
> 
> I will try with the that last recipe and will post if I get any sort of similar results.
> 
> Hmm. Pressure seems a bit low:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrDmQrvtYzQ&feature=youtu.be
> 
> Installed:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPO6unQ0Iv0&feature=youtu.be


Yours looks a little different than mine. It looks like your hose on the right side/baking soda side only goes halfway into the bottle. Am I seeing that right?


----------



## Mikhail

Not halfway. Maybe a quarter? It ends at the shoulder of the bottle.


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## jrill

Mikhail said:


> Not halfway. Maybe a quarter? It ends at the shoulder of the bottle.


Strange. All the others I have seen have a tee connection there with the middle of the tee open and the bottom of the tee with a hose going to the bottom of the bottle. I wonder what the difference is.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Today was the last day on the charge of: Was good for 30 days, 2bps for 8 hours a day.
> 
> Bottle A = Citric Acid 400g to 600ml water
> Bottle B = Baking Soda 300g to 200ml water
> 
> Lasted 30 days, but.... I was out of town during the last week that it ran so I can not say for sure that it ran for 2bps the whole time during that week. So I am going to restart today using the same ratios and see if I can duplicate this result. Stay tuned if anyone is still interested. :hihi:


Wow!!:drool: Can't wait to see the results.


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## Mikhail

jrill said:


> Strange. All the others I have seen have a tee connection there with the middle of the tee open and the bottom of the tee with a hose going to the bottom of the bottle. I wonder what the difference is.


Here is the bottom. Does this help?


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## jrill

Looks the same. Even your citric acid hose is the same with the weight on the end. I wonder if they just forgot to package the rest of that hose.


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## ecotanker

*could this the best ratio to try?*

This CO2 methods has inspired me to looking up some chemistry lessons from high school, to figured out what is the best amount to use for each so that little of the citric acid or carbonate remains.

The formula for this reaction, according to a web search is

3NaHCO3 + C6H8O7 --> C6H5Na3O7 + 3CO2 + 3H2O 

This suggest that 3 mole of baking soda ( NaHCO3 ) is needed to react with one mole of citric acid (C6H8O7) . Using an online mole to gram converter, give s that 3 mole of NaHCO3 is around 250 g and one mole of citric acid is around 192 g.

The amount of water added to each is probably not important, just add enough to dissolve the acid and enough to cover the baking soda with a thin layer of water.

I am currently trying this to see how it goes.


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## Stone454

I am getting one of these systems, well one of the many systems for this, I am going to fool around with the vinegar for a bit to see how well that works, My guess is the generic ratio they tell you is not right so I will play around with it and see how it goes.I just like the idea of being able to get everything locally with little to no hassle. Citric acid you have to get it online or get pay top dollar for it.


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## ecotanker

1 mole of acetic acid will react with 1 mole of baking soda, so it is not as efficient. I have not tried it but I am thinking of replacing boric acid for citric acid when I am out. 

The reaction is similar

3NaHCO3 + H3BO3 -> Na3BO3 + 3CO2 + 3H2O

1 mole of boric acid, H3B03, can react with 3 mole of baking soda. And boric acid is easy to get locally at a drugstore.

62 g of boric acid is one mole.



Stone454 said:


> I am getting one of these systems, well one of the many systems for this, I am going to fool around with the vinegar for a bit to see how well that works, My guess is the generic ratio they tell you is not right so I will play around with it and see how it goes.I just like the idea of being able to get everything locally with little to no hassle. Citric acid you have to get it online or get pay top dollar for it.


----------



## Stone454

I had not thought about boric acid let me know how that goes


----------



## Hilde

Stone454 said:


> I am getting one of these systems, well one of the many systems for this, I am going to fool around with the vinegar for a bit to see how well that works,


Reread this thread, especially post #25 Many have found that it doesn't work.

Bump:


ecotanker said:


> 1 mole of acetic acid will react with 1 mole of baking soda, so it is not as efficient. I have not tried it but I am thinking of replacing boric acid for citric acid when I am out.
> 
> The reaction is similar
> 
> 3NaHCO3 + H3BO3 -> Na3BO3 + 3CO2 + 3H2O
> 
> 1 mole of boric acid, H3B03, can react with 3 mole of baking soda. And boric acid is easy to get locally at a drugstore.
> 
> 62 g of boric acid is one mole.


Can't wait to see the results. Keep us updated please.


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## Quizcat

I fooled around with Vinegar, and after more attempts than I would like to remember, I finally gave up on it. I could never get the chemical reaction to occur beyond about 2 days, if that, even after a number of different attempts at various recipes. Sometimes, the reaction was virtually non-existent. 

I decided to get the citric acid instead, but I haven't played with it yet. That was about the time that Jrill started experimenting. I've been waiting for Jrill's results to see what he determines is the optimum recipe. 



Hilde said:


> Reread this thread, especially post #25 Many have found that it doesn't work.
> 
> Bump:
> Can't wait to see the results. Keep us updated please.


----------



## jrill

Quizcat said:


> I fooled around with Vinegar, and after more attempts than I would like to remember, I finally gave up on it. I could never get the chemical reaction to occur beyond about 2 days, if that, even after a number of different attempts at various recipes. Sometimes, the reaction was virtually non-existent.
> 
> I decided to get the citric acid instead, but I haven't played with it yet. That was about the time that Jrill started experimenting. I've been waiting for Jrill's results to see what he determines is the optimum recipe.


Yep, read more than a few problems with vinegar. I like the results I am getting with the citric acid.


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## strangewaters

jrill said:


> Yep, read more than a few problems with vinegar. I like the results I am getting with the citric acid.


Same here. Except not that cheap

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


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## jrill

strangewaters said:


> Same here. Except not that cheap
> 
> Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


Well, it cost more than yeast but you can buy a lot of citric acid and baking soda for the price of a good regulator, bottle and bottle fill. I think I show a pretty fair cost comparison earlier in this thread.


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## strangewaters

Just got a 4 pound box of baking soda for like 3 bucks. Also got 3 bottles of citric







for 6 bucks from walmart

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


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## strangewaters

strangewaters said:


> Just got a 4 pound box of baking soda for like 3 bucks. Also got 3 bottles of citric
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for 6 bucks from walmart
> 
> Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


3 bottles total cost was 6 bucks. 2 bucks a piece. 

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


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## jrill

strangewaters said:


> 3 bottles total cost was 6 bucks. 2 bucks a piece.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


I buy my citric acid by the pound on amazon 5 pounds is like $16. Much more cost effective. Even cheaper if you go bigger.


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## Jaxfisher

While completing my pressurized set-up, I bought this Reactive CO2 Generator. It gets here and step 4 of the directions is to what the demo video. When I pulled it up, it's in Chinese and I never got to the video. I'm just going to wing it. Here goes...


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## jrill

Jaxfisher said:


> While completing my pressurized set-up, I bought this Reactive CO2 Generator. It gets here and step 4 of the directions is to what the demo video. When I pulled it up, it's in Chinese and I never got to the video. I'm just going to wing it. Here goes...


So how did it go?


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## ecotanker

I was wondering why we use two bottles for this method. 

I think it can work with one bottle if done in a certain way. Add 3 mole of baking soda, then 1 mole of citric acid or boric acid powders then add enough water to cover the powders. Once the cap is on the bottle, a few shakes to get the reaction started and then open the needle valve to the number to get the bubble count we want. I will try this when my current trial is over.


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## jrill

ecotanker said:


> I was wondering why we use two bottles for this method.
> 
> I think it can work with one bottle if done in a certain way. Add 1 mole of baking soda, then 1 mole of citric acid or boric acid powders then add enough water to cover the powders. Once the cap is on the bottle, a few shakes to get the reaction started and then open the needle valve to the number to get the bubble count we want. I will try this when my current trial is over.


Its a question of longevity. With one bottle your done when the pressure is gone. With two the pressure keeps renewing. There is a system out there though does it that way using a stainless steel bottle and creates alot of initial pressure like in a standard co2 system.


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## haril

ecotanker said:


> I was wondering why we use two bottles for this method.
> 
> I think it can work with one bottle if done in a certain way. Add 1 mole of baking soda, then 1 mole of citric acid or boric acid powders then add enough water to cover the powders. Once the cap is on the bottle, a few shakes to get the reaction started and then open the needle valve to the number to get the bubble count we want. I will try this when my current trial is over.


I think there will be too much pressure build up when you mix all of the contents together in the beginning itself which the soda bottles may not be able to handle. I have seen a system on the internet that does this but in an aluminium cylinder. I wonder how long that would last for the same quantities we use.


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## jrill

haril said:


> I think there will be too much pressure build up when you mix all of the contents together in the beginning itself which the soda bottles may not be able to handle. I have seen a system on the internet that does this but in an aluminium cylinder. I wonder how long that would last for the same quantities we use.


I think your spot on. The instant pressure would be too much unless you used very little of both ca and ba.
And I'm thinking it was your post where I saw the single metal canister.


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## strangewaters

Check out this recipe.









Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


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## Jaxfisher

I set my system up and was so excited. I loved seeing the little bubbles coming out of the diffuser. 'Woke up the next morning and the citric acid bottle was empty. No harm to the adolescent BN or shrimp. What happened? I ended up putting my pressurized system on the tank, but would like to use this DIY set-up elsewhere.


----------



## jrill

Jaxfisher said:


> I set my system up and was so excited. I loved seeing the little bubbles coming out of the diffuser. 'Woke up the next morning and the citric acid bottle was empty. No harm to the adolescent BN or shrimp. What happened? I ended up putting my pressurized system on the tank, but would like to use this DIY set-up elsewhere.


Hard to say for sure, usually means there is a leak so all the citric acid gets used up trying to stabilize the pressure as its lost. Do you have a picture of your setup.


----------



## Hilde

jrill said:


> Today was the last day on the charge of: Was good for 30 days, 2bps for 8 hours a day.
> 
> Bottle A = Citric Acid 400g to 600ml water
> Bottle B = Baking Soda 300g to 200ml water
> 
> Lasted 30 days, but.... I was out of town during the last week that it ran so I can not say for sure that it ran for 2bps the whole time during that week. So I am going to restart today using the same ratios and see if I can duplicate this result. Stay tuned if anyone is still interested. :hihi:


So how is it going so far? How much of solutions left? What is the BPS?


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## jrill

Hilde said:


> So how is it going so far? How much of solutions left? What is the BPS?


Going good. Still 2 bps. Bit under half of ca left. The trend has been it uses quite a bit of ca and builds a lot of pressure which lasts awhile before it needs more.


----------



## strangewaters

It emptys my ca bottle pretty quick but did build up alot on the bottles. So much so i thought they would blow up lol

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


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## strangewaters

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=891242

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


----------



## jrill

jrill said:


> Today was the last day on the charge of: Was good for 30 days, 2bps for 8 hours a day.
> 
> Bottle A = Citric Acid 400g to 600ml water
> Bottle B = Baking Soda 300g to 200ml water
> 
> Lasted 30 days, but.... I was out of town during the last week that it ran so I can not say for sure that it ran for 2bps the whole time during that week. So I am going to restart today using the same ratios and see if I can duplicate this result. Stay tuned if anyone is still interested. :hihi:


Ran out today on this retest of the above formula. Just 23 days this time. I am going to run this mix one more time before I try others but will be out of town for a few weeks so I will wait till august to fire it up again.


----------



## strangewaters

jrill said:


> Ran out today on this retest of the above formula. Just 23 days this time. I am going to run this mix one more time before I try others but will be out of town for a few weeks so I will wait till august to fire it up again.


What was your recipe again?

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## jrill

strangewaters said:


> What was your recipe again?
> 
> Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


Bottle A = Citric Acid 400g to 600ml water
Bottle B = Baking Soda 300g to 200ml water


----------



## strangewaters

jrill said:


> Bottle A = Citric Acid 400g to 600ml water
> Bottle B = Baking Soda 300g to 200ml water


What size tank are you testijg this with? I get about a good week with the 200g recipe

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


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## jrill

strangewaters said:


> What size tank are you testijg this with? I get about a good week with the 200g recipe
> 
> Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


Its a 10 gal. 2 bps for 8 hrs a day.


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## strangewaters

jrill said:


> Its a 20 long. 2 bps for 8 hrs a day.


So theoretically on a 50 gallon it would deplete faster correct? Since it would take more co2 for the tank size

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


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## jrill

strangewaters said:


> So theoretically on a 50 gallon it would deplete faster correct? Since it would take more co2 for the tank size
> 
> Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


I meant 10 gallon. 
Depends on how much co2 your using. How many bps are you pumping. But I would think that yes you will need more. I don't think I would do diy in a 50.


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## strangewaters

I mean it works. I have a drop checker and it changes it color so i know the co2 is changing my ph. And im around 3 maybe 4 bps

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## jrill

strangewaters said:


> I mean it works. I have a drop checker and it changes it color so i know the co2 is changing my ph. And im around 3 maybe 4 bps
> 
> Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


Drop checkers only show a change and are of little to no value to determine co2 levels. What's your degassed pH compared to gassed pH. Most look for a full one degree drop.


----------



## strangewaters

It does do that. And i run it for damn near 11. Lights on for 12. Though i need to cut back. 

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## Hoppy

jrill said:


> Drop checkers only show a change and are of little to no value to determine co2 levels.


What do you base this on? I have played around with drop checkers long enough to know that they are useful for judging how much CO2 you have, but are not accurate enough to nail down the exact amount you have. There is no method that is available at an affordable price that gives real accuracy with CO2.


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## jrill

Hoppy said:


> What do you base this on? I have played around with drop checkers long enough to know that they are useful for judging how much CO2 you have, but are not accurate enough to nail down the exact amount you have. There is no method that is available at an affordable price that gives real accuracy with CO2.


You said it in your last sentence. Drop checkers only show a change that took place several hours ago. You can't base your co2 level on that.
How many posts have you read where the poster is having obvious issues that are co2 related and they say, but my drop checker color is good. IMO and many others smarter and better writers than me, there just toys.


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## strangewaters

jrill said:


> You said it in your last sentence. Drop checkers only show a change that took place several hours ago. You can't base your co2 level on that.
> How many posts have you read where the poster is having obvious issues that are co2 related and they say, but my drop checker color is good. IMO and many others smarter and better writers than me, there just toys.


As much as i dont want to say it since i bought one, i do feel there just toys. But i do like to look at it to make sure it turned green for me everyday. At least ill know there is enough co2 that it changed the color. Might not be enough for the plants but it is in there. 

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


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## jrill

strangewaters said:


> As much as i dont want to say it since i bought one, i do feel there just toys. But i do like to look at it to make sure it turned green for me everyday. At least ill know there is enough co2 that it changed the color. Might not be enough for the plants but it is in there.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


And your right and I agree that if you like it for that then you should have one.


----------



## Miki117

Hey guys, what happens if you increase or decrease everything while keeping the ratio the same? Like half the amount of BS, CA and water for smaller bottles and double the amount for larger one? Does it affect the time it takes before you need to refill?

I read about adding 50% or something, but didn't really get the answer. Sorry, not sure if I just didn't understand (after reading all pages lol!) or what not.


----------



## jrill

I would have to read through my results here and my notes for a specific answer but that's pretty much what this thread is about. In short pressure and duration change depending on the formula used.


----------



## Miki117

Sorry, I didn't mean the changes in the formula. Here's the scenario in my mind:

Using the current "best" mix: Let's say this lasts for 30 days (example only)
Bottle A = Citric Acid 400g to 600ml water
Bottle B = Baking Soda 300g to 200ml water

When I reduce all in half, it gives me these numbers:
Bottle A = Citric Acid 200g to 300ml water
Bottle B = Baking Soda 150g to 100ml water

Would it also last roughly around 30 days due to the same ratio of mixtures? Or would go out faster due to the lower value of ingredients?

Sorry for being a noob on these kinds of stuff. Too much overthinking = facepalm questions lol!


----------



## jrill

Questions are good.
I believe it would expire faster. One of my early test was to just double stuff which did not double the time.


----------



## Miki117

Okay, thanks! That's what I thought too but the thing about the ratio keeps bugging my mind lol! I'll try to set mine using 6L bottles when I get the time. All the way DIY though, as the regular DIY kits won't fit on the 6L bottle mouth. I'll also try to find some kind of regulator of some sort that would fit my aluminum water bottle for a possible cheaper CO2/paintball can alternative.


----------



## Miki117

Hey quick question. Approx how many tea/tablespoons is 300g of baking soda and 400g of citric acid? I currently don't have access to any weight measuring scale.


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## jrill

Can't help you there. And I'm not home to try and look and guess. Maybe someone with a scale can weigh 10 teaspoons and do the math to approximate.


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## strangewaters

When i weighed out 200g it was the same as 200ml

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## Miki117

Got the measurement, I think. 15 tablespoons for approx 300g of baking soda, so 20g/tbsp. I don't think this is the same with citric acid though. I'm currently experimenting using vinegar since I wasn't able to find any citric acid nearby. I used one of those measuring spoons for baking.


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## jrill

Good luck with vinegar. Only read bad things using that.


----------



## strangewaters

jrill said:


> Good luck with vinegar. Only read bad things using that.


Yup

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## Miki117

Yeah, I've read about that, but read some good things too so what the heck lol! I'll remove it if I see the first signs of whatever. Will change to citric acid once I get a bag or two.


----------



## jrill

Miki117 said:


> Yeah, I've read about that, but read some good things too so what the heck lol! I'll remove it if I see the first signs of whatever. Will change to citric acid once I get a bag or two.


Good enough. If your not living on the edge, then your taking up too much room.


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## strangewaters

Have any of you ever got that citric acid on your lips? Well have u got it with a cut on your lip that you didnt even know you had? SUPRISE 

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## Miki117

Haven't experienced that but spilling rubbing alcohol on a huge wound gets to mind. Just got home and so far the contraption is holding up. The only thing I got worried about is my canister lost a lot of flow because of the bubbles, don't know why.

EDIT: found the culprit, my filter floss was clogged up lol


----------



## ecotanker

*boric acid report*

I tried boric acid, and it does not work. It react too weakly with the baking soda. I will try again in about a month.


----------



## strangewaters

Quick question. Should i mix the bottles after i add the stuff?

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## jrill

strangewaters said:


> Quick question. Should i mix the bottles after i add the stuff?
> 
> Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk


Do you mean for the standard setup? Yes for that. Just slosh around the baking soda. It stays mostly powder for a long time. The citric acid you shake till it dissolves.


----------



## strangewaters

Ok thats what i was doing this whole time. Just needed to make sure

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## Coos

Hello everyone, I've been reading this thread with great interest, because I'm using a similar DIY CO2 system myself.

Just wondering Hari, you mentioned that you were having trouble with an inconsistent bps. I'm having the same problem, and am wondering if you've solved this problem yet.


----------



## Mikhail

Looks like that last recipe is working well for me. Its now been just over 30 days and still going strong. I am doing about 1.5 bps which is the max I can do in this 10 gallon before fish start gasping at top.

First 2 weeks I dutifully turned it off manually each night and back on in the morning. The last 2 weeks I have just left it run over night.

Here is the results after a major pruning.










I will watch and report when the mix finally is exhausted. 



Mikhail said:


> I have following this thread closely.
> 
> It inspired me to try out this equipment titled
> 
> "Pro DIY Co2 Generator System Kit Aluminum Alloy with Bubble Counter Check Valve".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will try with the that last recipe and will post if I get any sort of similar results.
> 
> Hmm. Pressure seems a bit low:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrDmQrvtYzQ&feature=youtu.be
> 
> Installed:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPO6unQ0Iv0&feature=youtu.be


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## haril

Coos said:


> Hello everyone, I've been reading this thread with great interest, because I'm using a similar DIY CO2 system myself.
> 
> Just wondering Hari, you mentioned that you were having trouble with an inconsistent bps. I'm having the same problem, and am wondering if you've solved this problem yet.


I solved the problem by running it 24/7. The issue is only when I use the solenoid valve to turn off and on the flow. 

That said, I am now using a paintball system in my main tank and haven't touched it for more than 2 months and it runs perfectly, more peace of mind than the CA BS system which I now run 24/7 on a 10 gallon.


----------



## Coos

Mm, ok. So you think it is because of the solenoid?
This could be it, because I'm using it as well.

Anyone else having any thoughts about this?


----------



## jrill

Coos said:


> Mm, ok. So you think it is because of the solenoid?
> This could be it, because I'm using it as well.
> 
> Anyone else having any thoughts about this?


Could be, but I think it's more related to fluctuations in pressure that occur as the powders are used.


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## haril

jrill said:


> Could be, but I think it's more related to fluctuations in pressure that occur as the powders are used.


It is because of the on / off cycle which causes pressure back up and differences in pressure, etc. for a small contained low pressure system like this. It is also evident during the last few days of its life as well but without the Solenoid its pretty stable till the last couple of days or so. You are obviously going to look at more refills and added cost because you will run it 24/7. You could reduce the bps if you are running it 24/7 and check the CO2 levels every now and then in the beginning to make sure you are achieving what you set out for.


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## Coos

haril said:


> It is because of the on / off cycle which causes pressure back up and differences in pressure, etc. for a small contained low pressure system like this. It is also evident during the last few days of its life as well but without the Solenoid its pretty stable till the last couple of days or so. You are obviously going to look at more refills and added cost because you will run it 24/7. You could reduce the bps if you are running it 24/7 and check the CO2 levels every now and then in the beginning to make sure you are achieving what you set out for.


Then I'm wondering why Jrill isn't having the same problems with inconsistent bps using the solenoid.

And I'm also wondering; Do you guys think if it is possible to solve this problem with a proper check valve between the solenoid and the CO2 system?

Another question for Jrill: I noticed that you are using this bubblecounter (or a similar one) and was wondering; is that also a check valve? And if not, what kind of check valve are you using?


----------



## jrill

Coos said:


> Then I'm wondering why Jrill isn't having the same problems with inconsistent bps using the solenoid.
> 
> And I'm also wondering; Do you guys think if it is possible to solve this problem with a proper check valve between the solenoid and the CO2 system?
> 
> Another question for Jrill: I noticed that you are using this bubblecounter (or a similar one) and was wondering; is that also a check valve? And if not, what kind of check valve are you using?


Yes it does have a check valve but I also have a standard aquarium check valve after that. 
My bps is pretty stable until pressure changes a lot. I do need to adjust bps two or three times a week but they are small adjustments. I could probably leave it but am trying to stay as close as I can to the 2 bps while testing formulas.


----------



## Coos

jrill said:


> Questions are good.
> I believe it would expire faster. One of my early test was to just double stuff which did not double the time.


I wish I had read this thread earlier, becaus I tried to dubble all the amounts as well, but it only lasted 6 days at 4bps. Witch was the same for the original amounts. I think I'm gonna try one of your recipes Jrill.



jrill said:


> Yes it does have a check valve but I also have a standard aquarium check valve after that.
> My bps is pretty stable until pressure changes a lot. I do need to adjust bps two or three times a week but they are small adjustments. I could probably leave it but am trying to stay as close as I can to the 2 bps while testing formulas.


Ok, thanks for the info. Are you using a plastic or metal check valve besides your 2 in one?
It still doesn't explain why I'm having these inconsistenties, so I'm going to run it without the solenoid for a while, and see how that goes.


----------



## jrill

Its plastic.


----------



## haril

jrill said:


> Yes it does have a check valve but I also have a standard aquarium check valve after that.
> My bps is pretty stable until pressure changes a lot. I do need to adjust bps two or three times a week but they are small adjustments. I could probably leave it but am trying to stay as close as I can to the 2 bps while testing formulas.


You should note that jrill uses the rolls Royce version of this system with a number of additional custom souped up components :hihi:. IMHO, you will never achieve stable bps with this system out of the box. Even with a lot of mods and added components you will need to make adjustments like jrill just mentioned.


----------



## Coos

haril said:


> You should note that jrill uses the rolls Royce version of this system with a number of additional custom souped up components :hihi:. IMHO, you will never achieve stable bps with this system out of the box. Even with a lot of mods and added components you will need to make adjustments like jrill just mentioned.


I guess you're right, but running it without the solenoid does seem to improve the consistency of the bps. Now I'm thinking of getting a new check valve and maybe a better needle valve.



jrill said:


> Bottle A = Citric Acid 400g to 600ml water
> Bottle B = Baking Soda 300g to 200ml water



Well somehow this recipe doesn't seem to work for me. Its now day 3 and after turning it on this morning all the CA moved to bottle B. Bottle B still got unsolved BS, so I swirled it around, but that makes the pressure build up quite a lot, of course... 
Anyone any idea what went wrong?


----------



## jrill

Coos said:


> I guess you're right, but running it without the solenoid does seem to improve the consistency of the bps. Now I'm thinking of getting a new check valve and maybe a better needle valve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well somehow this recipe doesn't seem to work for me. Its now day 3 and after turning it on this morning all the CA moved to bottle B. Bottle B still got unsolved BS, so I swirled it around, but that makes the pressure build up quite a lot, of course...
> Anyone any idea what went wrong?


You have a leak somewhere.


----------



## Coos

jrill said:


> You have a leak somewhere.



Mmm, well I checked everything, but couldn't find any leaks.
I replaced the tubing and removed the check valve.
I hope that will fix the problem...

I now try:
CA 300g / 600ml water
BS 200g / 200ml water


----------



## jrill

Coos said:


> Mmm, well I checked everything, but couldn't find any leaks.
> I replaced the tubing and removed the check valve.
> I hope that will fix the problem...
> 
> I now try:
> CA 300g / 600ml water
> BS 200g / 200ml water


Leaks can be hard to find. What method did you use to check.
The reason I think there is a leak is because the system should only move ca to stabilize pressure. During the first three days of a fresh mix I never see any ca move until maybe the end of day three.


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## Mikhail

... and, STOP. 

Using that pro rig, the last recipe and 1.5 bps, I got to 37 days and the tank plants look great.

And that was with only 2 weeks of turning off manually at night. The remaining time the CO2 was left on 24/7. (life intruded)

Hmm. So totals hours of CO2 production was 776, or (based on the 16 hours of lamp time per day) 48.5 days if I installed a cutoff solenoid.

Very cool. I wonder what my production cost using bulk citric acid from my local store would be. I will note the price next purchase.

Thanks for the recipe experimentation folks!


----------



## jrill

Mikhail said:


> ... and, STOP.
> 
> Using that pro rig, the last recipe and 1.5 bps, I got to 37 days and the tank plants look great.
> 
> And that was with only 2 weeks of turning off manually at night. The remaining time the CO2 was left on 24/7. (life intruded)
> 
> Hmm. So totals hours of CO2 production was 776, or (based on the 16 hours of lamp time per day) 48.5 days if I installed a cutoff solenoid.
> 
> Very cool. I wonder what my production cost using bulk citric acid from my local store would be. I will note the price next purchase.
> 
> Thanks for the recipe experimentation folks!


Cool beans. The best prices for me for citric acid has been on Amazon.


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## Coos

jrill said:


> Yes, try the kids bubbles with a foam brush
> Whip up a lather around the fittings and see if they grow. You defiantly have a leak somewhere.
> Check carefully where the bottles screw in. Those washers they use tear easily. I even put Teflon tape on the bottle threads.





jrill said:


> I soak the brush then whip it up right on the fittings. You want the bubbles sticking to whatever your checking then watch closely.





jrill said:


> Leaks can be hard to find. What method did you use to check.
> The reason I think there is a leak is because the system should only move ca to stabilize pressure. During the first three days of a fresh mix I never see any ca move until maybe the end of day three.


I used the method you mentioned; the kids bubbles with foam brush and covered everything with it, but couldn't find any growing bubbles.
But I guess I'll have to try it again because my last batch ran out last night... :icon_frow


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## jrill

Hmm. Something is amiss. Hope you find it.


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## Hilde

Coos said:


> I used the method you mentioned; the kids bubbles with foam brush and covered everything with it, but couldn't find any growing bubbles.
> But I guess I'll have to try it again because my last batch ran out last night... :icon_frow


I think Hoppy said you have to watch it for about 5mins.


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## Hilde

Last I used this system I was having leaks on the output hose of Bottle B. Thus I ordered another cap. Got tied up with life thus had it sitting on the self. Set it up again today. Poured bubble soap over the caps. Had the same results. I am *trashing* this unit.


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## jrill

Hilde said:


> Last I used this system I was having leaks on the output hose of Bottle B. Thus I ordered another cap. Got tied up with life thus had it sitting on the self. Set it up again today. Poured bubble soap over the caps. Had the same results. I am *trashing* this unit.


Sorry to hear that. Sad you have had so many problems. Still happy with mine. Speaking of which. Will fire it back up this week now that summer travel is over. Slight delay because I broke my bubble counter. New one should be here Thursday.


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## Hilde

If I had used *zip ties* on the tubing connected to the bottle caps instead of the screw on caps it would have worked. I am tired though of spending money on this system. Next is to put a paintball Co2 system together. 

jrill did you use zip ties?


----------



## jrill

Hilde said:


> If I had used *zip ties* on the tubing connected to the bottle caps instead of the screw on caps it would have worked. I am tired though of spending money on this system. Next is to put a paintball Co2 system together.
> 
> jrill did you use zip ties?


I have only used them when I had a nipple connection going into a valve I attached. The system I have, the one with the plastic bar has compression fitting. One reason I went with this kind is there seems to be less areas that could fail than the bottle cap type








.


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## eranio

Hi Jrill,

You think i can use this system also in 130G tank?
for how long you use same mix before you need to replace?

Thanks!


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## jrill

eranio said:


> Hi Jrill,
> 
> You think i can use this system also in 130G tank?
> for how long you use same mix before you need to replace?
> 
> Thanks!


I don't think I would use it in anything bigger than a 20 gallon. I would go pressure tank co2 with anything bigger.


----------



## eranio

jrill said:


> I don't think I would use it in anything bigger than a 20 gallon. I would go pressure tank co2 with anything bigger.


Thanks for the quick answer!

:icon_smil

if someone here tried this system with bigger tanks, i would be happy to get some feedback...


----------



## haril

eranio said:


> Thanks for the quick answer!
> 
> :icon_smil
> 
> if someone here tried this system with bigger tanks, i would be happy to get some feedback...


I used it in my 37 gallon and it just about managed the CO2 levels provided you have a good diffusing mechanism in place. That is the max size tank I would do but you need a 2 bps constant rate. I have replaced mine 3 months ago with a paintball setup and its been really good. Just had to adjust the bps once last week after almost 3 months. I think I still have half the 24 Oz tank left to go.

Cheers,
Hari

Bump:


Hilde said:


> Last I used this system I was having leaks on the output hose of Bottle B. Thus I ordered another cap. Got tied up with life thus had it sitting on the self. Set it up again today. Poured bubble soap over the caps. Had the same results. I am *trashing* this unit.


I think you got a bad piece. Its luck I guess. I got the cheapest model available and haven't had a single leak. Didnt even use zip ties except for my attachment to the solenoid valve which I dont use anymore anyway.


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## eranio

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jrill

Ready, set, go. Replacement bubble counter came in today so I restarted this formula. Again at 2 bps for 8 hours a day..

Bottle A = Citric Acid 400g to 600ml water
Bottle B = Baking Soda 300g to 200ml water


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## Chon_Lee

I don't happen to have a scale at work, but I've brought measuring cups and spoons in. Is anyone able to give me a rough estimate of what 200g citric acid and 200g baking soda is in cups. Or even the most reliable recipe in cups.


EDIT: I went back through old threads and found this... http://www.chymist.com/Mass-volume equivalents.pdf 

I did a rough calc and found that 1C + 2.5Tbsp is ~200g of Citric acid and 3/4C + 2Tbsp is ~200g Baking Soda.


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## Krakozavr

Hi friends!
In my experience, the original chinese scheme working not very well. The pressure is growing constantly. I made some changes based on the Russian forums recommendations, and I added some my own improvement. Now, I have a very stable system, pressure is totally consystent (started from 1.5ATM, may floating around, depend of a temperature or so, between 1.3 - 1.7, it's pretty enough). 

The proper proportions are:
acid: 150g+200ml of water 
soda: 200g+minimal amount of water enough to cover a soda.

You can load more, just keep a proportion.

My last load (acid: 300g+400ml of water, soda 400g + minimal amount of water to cover soda) still working for my 75G tank with a dropchecker control 24/7 more of 3 weeks for now.

The scheme is attached.
It is very important to put the acid output at the bottom of the soda bottle, under the soda layer, instead to drop it from the top.
Also, using a needles is important for acid dosage. You will need at least one needle at the soda's side of the system; I prefer to use two with some reasons. You can try.

You will be unable to starting the system in common way; anyway it was too annoying for me. I using the car air pump to make a proper pressure in the system. Bicycle air pump should be OK, too  It is much faster and easiest, at least for me 










P.S. Also, I played with a ceramic diffusers, and they are just a garbage. I received a really small bubbles (like a gas dust) only with a twig; I using maple twig but you can try some other woods. Works just perfect and cost nothing.


----------



## jrill

Krakozavr said:


> Hi friends!
> In my experience, the original chinese scheme working not very well. The pressure is growing constantly. I made some changes based on the Russian forums recommendations, and I added some my own improvement. Now, I have a very stable system, pressure is totally consystent (started from 1.5ATM, may floating around, depend of a temperature or so, between 1.3 - 1.7, it's pretty enough).
> 
> The proper proportions are:
> acid: 150g+200ml of water
> soda: 200g+minimal amount of water enough to cover a soda.
> 
> You can load more, just keep a proportion.
> 
> My last load (acid: 300g+400ml of water, soda 400g + minimal amount of water to cover soda) still working for my 75G tank with a dropchecker control 24/7 more of 3 weeks for now.
> 
> The scheme is attached.
> It is very important to put the acid output at the bottom of the soda bottle, under the soda layer, instead to drop it from the top.
> Also, using a needles is important for acid dosage. You will need at least one needle at the soda's side of the system; I prefer to use two with some reasons. You can try.
> 
> You will be unable to starting the system in common way; anyway it was too annoying for me. I using the car air pump to make a proper pressure in the system. Bicycle air pump should be OK, too  It is much faster and easiest, at least for me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Also, I played with a ceramic diffusers, and they are just a garbage. I received a really small bubbles (like a gas dust) only with a twig; I using maple twig but you can try some other woods. Works just perfect and cost nothing.


I don't have the constant rising pressure problem you describe. The Chinese pro system seems to work ok for me as designed so I don't see what problem you have fixed.


----------



## Hilde

Krakozavr said:


> Hi friends!
> The pressure is growing constantly. I made some changes based on the Russian forums recommendations, and I added some my own improvement. Now, I have a very stable system, pressure is totally consistent.
> 
> Also, using a needles is important for acid dosage. You will need at least one needle at the soda's side of the system; I prefer to use two with some reasons. You can try.


When I had pressure rising I had a leak. 
What changes did you make?
What do you mean by needles?

Bump:


fish jihad said:


> If at some point point your needle valve fails or get hold a correct pressure i have an alternative. Its tedious but works. You simply alter the amount of water in your citric acid solution. My recipe is 2.5 cups of water ( close to your 600ml). So i added a 3 cups instead, and reaction slowed to a crawl. 2.75 cups was a little better.
> I also tried 2 bottles at 2.5 cups on a one diffuser. That drained both bottles in 1.5 days and sent my Ph down to 6.4... so then i did 2.75 cups and that seemed ok.
> Point is play with the amount of water in your acid and you get varying reaction rates


Chon_Lee here is someone whom used cups for measurements.


----------



## Hilde

ecotanker said:


> The formula for this reaction, according to a web search is
> 3NaHCO3 + C6H8O7 --> C6H5Na3O7 + 3CO2 + 3H2O
> This suggest that 3 mole of baking soda ( NaHCO3 ) is needed to react with one mole of citric acid (C6H8O7) . Using an online mole to gram converter, give s that 3 mole of NaHCO3 is around 250 g and one mole of citric acid is around 192 g.
> 
> The amount of water added to each is probably not important, just add enough to dissolve the acid and enough to cover the baking soda with a thin layer of water.
> 
> I am currently trying this to see how it goes.


Well how long did it last?

Krakozavr when you were talking about needles did you mean mole as ecotanker talks about?


----------



## jrill

Well today was the last day for the mix. I only got a disappointing 21 days out of it. A bit short of the 30 I got last time. I think I will call it good enough for now and just stay with this last one and be happy with 20 to 30 days. Not even sure I want to keep the tank I am running it on as a high light tank. I have been thinking about switching it over to low to medium light. We shall see.


----------



## Rohan

Hello Jrill,

Many of us are using the citric acid and soda co2 reactor. I am also also running a setup for past 2-3 days and observed some points from which I concluded that the output is controllable but not constant. I may be wrong but I need other's observations and advices to make this setup even better. 

My logic as well was practical observations:

1. Bottle A is mixed with 200gms citric acid and 600ml water. Bottle B is mixed with 200gms soda and 200ml water.
2. After adding all the equipments and keeping the needle valve or ball valve closed, we need to squeeze the bottle A and citric acid flows into bottle B containing soda. As soon as both of them react co2 is produced and some amount of co2 or soda mixture(CORRECT ME HERE,WHETHER IS IT CO2 OR SODA THAT BACKFLOWS) flows back to bottle A. Pressure in both the bottles increases and i think pressure in bottle A is a bit higher than that of bottle B(CORRECT AGAIN IF ITS INCORRECT). Now we can open the needle or ball valve when the pressure reaches 15-20 PSI or 1-1.5 kg/cm3. 
3. As soon as we open the co2 flows from bottle B to tank and we can adjust the bps with needle valve. 
4. Now after some time when co2 production slowly depletes in bottle B(CORRECT WHETHER CO2 PRODUCTIONS GRADUALLY DECREASES WITH TIME) the output will keep on decreasing and due to this decrease in pressure in bottle B citric acid flows from bottle A to B to make adjustments in pressures. And as soon as the citric again reacts with soda, co2 produces and the output slowly increases. 

Now here's my point. At some point of time output starts decreasing and then again it will increase. Therefore a fluctuation on co2 output and thereby not consistent. 

What you guys think of this?


----------



## jrill

Not quite sure what your asking, but pressure does change. I find that over all pressure increases over the life of the mix until it empties the citric acid bottle and pressure peaks. For me this last buildup lasts about a week and during that time is the when bubble count is inconsistent. I need to open the needle valve a bit more each day over that week until no pressure is left.


----------



## Rohan

I am asking that does the output remains same throughout the time or it fluctuates? as per my observations and calculations the bps and output will vary from time to time, thus fluctuations of co2


----------



## Rohan

You mean to say pressure on bottle A keeps on increasing gradually even when there is no leak until the whole CA has been consumed?


----------



## Rohan

Do you mean that pressure of the system gradually increases with time?


----------



## jrill

Rohan said:


> Do you mean that pressure of the system gradually increases with time?


After two or three weeks or so mine has always increased as the last 1/3 or so of the citric acid is used up.


----------



## Rohan

I will be posting a modified DIY version of mine with pneumatic parts assembled from local stores. Locally 3-4 hobbyists are using the same setup. We got inspired by the banggood version and started assembling for our own version which costed 1/3 the actual price.


----------



## Hilde

Rohan said:


> Locally 3-4 hobbyists are using the same setup. We got inspired by the banggood version and started assembling for our own version which costed 1/3 the actual price.


Anxious to see it.


----------



## mistergreen

Has anybody used baking powder? All you need is to add water. As you know water releases the acid in baking powder to react with the baking soda.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Rohan

Here's what we used for the complete setup:

1. Pressure gauge with connecting adapter ( 2.5$)
2. Needle Valve with connecting adapter (2$)
3. PU Pipe - 6mm(4 metre) (1$)
4. CO2 caps from Banggood (1.4$ each)
5. Ball valve with connecting adapter(Optional) (3$)
6. Flow Controller with connecting adapter(Optional) (2.5$)
7. Teflon Tape (0.5$) 
8. Safety valve with adapter connector (1.2$)

Total - 13$ approx. 

Here are some pics of the setup:


----------



## jrill

But, you can buy that system for $13 on eBay. Or for another $8 buy the pro kit with the plastic bar.


----------



## Rohan

This is even better than the box one. Moreover it is flexible. Even if you have any leak at any part you can fix or replace which you can't with the Chinese version. Once it leaks you have to throw it away. This is the USP of this setup. Also price is lower than the pro version and works as efficient as the so called pro one.


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## mistergreen

Hey, how does liquid from bottle A get pulled in bottle B?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jrill

Rohan said:


> This is even better than the box one. Moreover it is flexible. Even if you have any leak at any part you can fix or replace which you can't with the Chinese version. Once it leaks you have to throw it away. This is the USP of this setup. Also price is lower than the pro version and works as efficient as the so called pro one.


Interesting. I hope it works out like you plan.


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## jrill

mistergreen said:


> Hey, how does liquid from bottle A get pulled in bottle B?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


By the two bottles pressure forcing the liquid through the tubes as the bottles need to equalize pressure between the two.


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## mistergreen

jrill said:


> By the two bottles pressure forcing the liquid through the tubes as the bottles need to equalize pressure between the two.


Ah, I see from the video. It takes a bit of tooling around to get it started. So both need to be solutions. One can't be a solution, the other powder.


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## jrill

mistergreen said:


> Ah, I see from the video. It takes a bit of tooling around to get it started. So both need to be solutions. One can't be a solution, the other powder.


Correct. Although I have found on the baking soda side you can use far less water than recommended. Just need enough to cover the powder a tad.


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## Jimklemme

I did an experiment last weekend using the regular citric acid ratio and dry baking soda which worked fine until my setup started leaking.


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## jrill

Jimklemme said:


> I did an experiment last weekend using the regular citric acid ratio and dry baking soda which worked fine until my setup started leaking.


True enough. The standard formula works real well. But its fun to try and make things work better [emoji6]


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## mistergreen

Jimklemme said:


> I did an experiment last weekend using the regular citric acid ratio and dry baking soda which worked fine until my setup started leaking.


oh, interesting. You got solution to dry soda to work. Try regular water & dry baking powder.
It'll save you money on citric acid and baking powder isn't any more expensive than baking soda.


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## Hilde

mistergreen said:


> oh, interesting. You got solution to dry soda to work. Try regular water & dry baking powder.
> It'll save you money on citric acid and baking powder isn't any more expensive than baking soda.


How will it save money? Explain more and include your formula, please


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## mistergreen

Hilde said:


> How will it save money? Explain more and include your formula, please


Huh? I thought I did. You don't need to buy citric acid, or any acid.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Hilde

mistergreen said:


> Huh? I thought I did. You don't need to buy citric acid, or any acid.


Yes reading it with a headache I misunderstood. 

Have you tried this using the system?


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## Jimklemme

I can see that using baking soda would have the potential to be cheaper than buying baking and citric acid. I might try this out in my test setup.


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## Hilde

ecotanker said:


> This CO2 methods has inspired me to looking up some chemistry lessons from high school, to figured out what is the best amount to use for each so that little of the citric acid or carbonate remains.
> 
> The formula for this reaction, according to a web search is
> 3NaHCO3 + C6H8O7 --> C6H5Na3O7 + 3CO2 + 3H2O
> 
> This suggest that 3 mole of baking soda ( NaHCO3 ) is needed to react with one mole of citric acid (C6H8O7) . Using an online mole to gram converter, give s that 3 mole of NaHCO3 is around 250 g and one mole of citric acid is around 192 g.


Jimklemme perhaps this formula will help you on deciding the formula for baking soda. 

I would like to understand this formula. Got any links that would explain it?


----------



## Hilde

mistergreen said:


> Try regular water & dry baking powder.


Seems from an article on the difference between baking soda and baking powder that the Co2 from baking powder is less consistent since heat produces some of its Co2


----------



## mistergreen

Hilde said:


> Seems from an article on the difference between baking soda and baking powder that the Co2 from baking powder is less consistent since heat produces some of its Co2


Heat produces CO2 for baking soda too.

Never mind on using water and baking powder. I just did a test and the acid in baking powder does not completely react with the soda.

I mixed BP with water, let the fizz die down. I then added vinegar into the solution and more fizz was produced (much more vigorous than plain water).

The BP you get from the store is Double acting that's why the incomplete reaction.

You'd want Single Acting BP but it's not sold through stores.


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## Dropline

I am looking into this and wonder what is the best one to get? I do not really like the caps and hose sets so that leaves it down to plastic or aluminum? The aluminum ones look like it has an adjustable release valve and looks more durable.

One more thing, do all of you actually squeeze A to get these started? 

Can't you just prime B with some citric acid then cap it and let it build in B to fill them both? 

Seems if you get lets just say 10 days to make it simple.
Using 200g BS in B and 200g CA in A add and mix A as normal. 
B add just the soda but add 1/10th extra (One days worth based on simple 10 day math)
Then add your water WITH 1/10 of CA into B and cap it up quick. I would think 1 days worth of CO2 should prime it and get it running. Maybe not could need more, but even adding more would not waste what you have in there to prime and extend by that much time.


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## jrill

I do squeeze to start. Very easy and no rush to cap. Your trying to fix a problem that isn't there.
The powders are not used equally so there is not "a one days worth".


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## Dropline

jrill said:


> I do squeeze to start. Very easy and no rush to cap. Your trying to fix a problem that isn't there.
> The powders are not used equally so there is not "a one days worth".


I did not think of it as fixing a problem, more adding a little more to the length of time and maybe a way for those with only one needle valve to prime and not change their setting. Also used the one day as an example to put some numbers to it. Numbers make more sense than letters to me.  

How do you like the plastic bar "pro" kit? I was looking at that and the aluminum one and want to order something soon. I do have a 55g tank, but I am only looking for 2-2.5bps being my lights are medium. Not looking to get my plants growing crazy (Not yet) just want to add some carbon to help them keep the algae down. Working now with a 2 bottle yeast system and just wanted something a little better.


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## jrill

I like the plastic bar pro a lot. The needle valve is not great but works well enough. I did try a better needle valve for a few months and just used the unit valve as on and off. Went back to using just the unit valve during my last run.
You will have to adjust a few days a week anyway so I really don't see the advantage to the prime.


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## Dropline

jrill said:


> You will have to adjust a few days a week anyway so I really don't see the advantage to the prime.


The way I see it if you prime it up front then you would get another day or 2 on the run instead of eating up your CA mix on day 1, it should not draw any over until the pressure drops from the prime. I guess I should have kept my mouth shut, made sense in my head.


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## jrill

The prime takes very little if the ca fluid. After the star it may be a couple of days before it draws more. Life of the mix varies. On my best tested mix I was getting on average three weeks at 2 bps for 8 hours a day. It would vary from two weeks to just over four.


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## Dropline

jrill said:


> I like the plastic bar pro a lot.


IF you were going to do this all over, would you keep the plastic one or go with aluminum??


----------



## jrill

Dropline said:


> IF you were going to do this all over, would you keep the plastic one or go with aluminum??


I don't know anything about the aluminum so I can't say for sure, but I was happy with the plastic. Hope that helps.


----------



## Dropline

jrill said:


> I don't know anything about the aluminum so I can't say for sure, but I was happy with the plastic. Hope that helps.


Ok, thanks. May pull the trigger tonight, just not sure on what one yet. Aluminum seems a better platform to mod later if I need to.


----------



## Burito

Hello there,
just a quick question, anybody tried this with 1l bottles? Or in theory, what would be the difference considering the standard recipe for 2l bottles? Twice the pressure with half the bottle volume? Industry standard pressure rating for 1l and 2l PET bottles is the same (150PSI, which is cca 10Bar).
The thing is, I have a verry little space for this and only can fit 1l bottles in the shelf..

Thanks!


----------



## jrill

Burito said:


> Hello there,
> just a quick question, anybody tried this with 1l bottles? Or in theory, what would be the difference considering the standard recipe for 2l bottles? Twice the pressure with half the bottle volume? Industry standard pressure rating for 1l and 2l PET bottles is the same (150PSI, which is cca 10Bar).
> The thing is, I have a verry little space for this and only can fit 1l bottles in the shelf..
> 
> Thanks!


Did not try it but don't see why not as long as you can accommodate the fluid volume and space for where the tube on the baking soda side vents into the bottle.


----------



## Burito

Ok, I can fit both mixtures in each 1l bottle (200g CA + 400ml water / 200g BS + 200ml water) and after the process ends, the BS bottle should contain cca 600ml of used mixture. Let's say the clearene for tubing is ok, is there anything else that could come in play? In theory, half the volume = twice the pressure, but if I start the mix with the correct pressure of 2Bar (with the initial squeezeing and shaking) it should be ok? Or am I missing something? I coulnd not find any information on smaller bottles with this setup, only 2l...


----------



## jrill

Sounds right. Not sure about double the pressure though. Chemistry or physics was never my thing.


----------



## Jimklemme

In the setup I used to test dry baking soda with CA solution I did it with 1L bottles and the bottle caps. Max pressure wasn't an issue even though I ended up with a runaway reaction due to a leak at my needle valve. 

Keep in mind that the reaction (i.e. amount of solution moving from Bottle A to Bottle B) should be controlled/throttled by the amount of gas flowing out through the needle valve and the resulting pressure differential between bottles A & B. As long as you can control the flow you should be able to maintain a fairly steady pressure much lower than the bursting pressure of the bottle. Theoretically you should be able to set the initial pressure via the priming squeezes and maintain it. Of course this is based on my experience. While I typically tried to run the DIY setup "in the green" on the gauge I've had my system operating at around 120 PSI without any failures.

I bought both the bottle caps from China on the 'bay and the aluminum setup from CO2Art before I decided to build my paintball setup. I don't have a plastic setup but I can't imagine that it would work any better or worse than the aluminum one. IMO the aluminum setup is easier to use (and safer) as it has a relief valve built in. The only thing I would change is to replace the needle valve with a better one.


----------



## Burito

120PSI is rather high for any soda bottle. I imagine that was just a peak and not a long term thing... So once you set up the pressure in the whole system, it should stay more/less the same, unelss you have a leak somewhere. And the pressure should be the same no matter the bottles volume. So base on your experience, my only worry should be if I can fit the solution in 1l bottle (considering the system works as it's supposed to). I orderd the D501 model, the same jrill has.


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## mik778866

Hi. Apologies for jumping to the end. Is there a way to tweak yr formula to get less bubbles for longer time, with more stability. 0,5 bps is fine for 24/7. Want it to last for at least 3 weeks.


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## Dropline

mik778866 said:


> Hi. Apologies for jumping to the end. Is there a way to tweak yr formula to get less bubbles for longer time, with more stability. 0,5 bps is fine for 24/7. Want it to last for at least 3 weeks.


Using the needle valve you can slow down the reaction. No Citric Acid should move into the Baking Soda bottle unless the baking soda bottle pressure is lowered by opening needle valve. 

I would also try more water in the Citric Acid side (Based on posts in this thread not on anything I actually did) to slow the reaction down some. Also make sure there are NO LEAKS or you will never get close to 3 weeks.

EDIT>> Make sure the volume of BOTH A+B is not bigger than one bottle. All the mix will end up in one bottle at the end. So when adding more water to the CA side of things make sure your not going to overflow the BS bottle.


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## jrill

Dropline said:


> Using the needle valve you can slow down the reaction. No Citric Acid should move into the Baking Soda bottle unless the baking soda bottle pressure is lowered by opening needle valve.
> 
> I would also try more water in the Citric Acid side (Based on posts in this thread not on anything I actually did) to slow the reaction down some. Also make sure there are NO LEAKS or you will never get close to 3 weeks.
> 
> EDIT>> Make sure the volume of BOTH A+B is not bigger than one bottle. All the mix will end up in one bottle at the end. So when adding more water to the CA side of things make sure your not going to overflow the BS bottle.


+ 1 What he said.....


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## mik778866

Are you referring to the same needle valve on the top of bottel B?

If so, wont pressure build up by tightening that valve?


Can u put a needle valve in tube that joins bottel a and b. That way mix of gasses will happen slower. Again sorry for not reading full thread. Its soo long.


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## Dropline

mik778866 said:


> Are you referring to the same needle valve on the top of bottel B?
> 
> If so, wont pressure build up by tightening that valve?
> 
> 
> Can u put a needle valve in tube that joins bottel a and b. That way mix of gasses will happen slower. Again sorry for not reading full thread. Its soo long.


When A and B have the SAME pressure the reactions STOPS. When you open the Valve on top pressure (co2) is removed from the Baking Soda Side and causes the Citric Acid side to flow into the baking soda side (Being CA side is under more pressure still). They mix, build pressure and that back flows back to the Citric Acid side as CO2, stabilizes the pressure and STOPS the flow and the reaction. 

The only time the pressure should build closing the valve is from a leak or if you close it just after the CA dumps into the BS.


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## mik778866

Oh. I see. So you regulate the bps by playing with the valve. Or even stop it that way. Thanks


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## Dropline

mik778866 said:


> Oh. I see. So you regulate the bps by playing with the valve. Or even stop it that way. Thanks


Yep, you can also add a Solenoid to turn it on and off with your lights, that MAY help you get to 3 weeks but makes 2 more spots that CAN leak. That is what I was planning on doing, but ended up not going this route.


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## Aquarium_Alex

For those of us who haven't read the whole thread (I read it from page 1-10, and then skimmed) could you provide a brief summary for what you found out?

Just what formula works well and how long it lasts, maybe? Thanks.


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## Dropline

Aquarium_Alex said:


> For those of us who haven't read the whole thread (I read it from page 1-10, and then skimmed) could you provide a brief summary for what you found out?
> 
> Just what formula works well and how long it lasts, maybe? Thanks.


I would have to go back and look, but it looks like less water in the baking soda bottle and more in the citric acid bottle. DO NOT let the total volume of both bottles become larger than 1 bottle, at the end all the contents (Besides the stuff broken down into co2) will be in the Baking Soda bottle. More water in the Citric Acid side will slow down the reaction and should increase time. 

Disclaimer: I did not do this, do not have one of these sets, but I DID read every post on this thread.


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## Aquarium_Alex

Dropline said:


> I would have to go back and look, but it looks like less water in the baking soda bottle and more in the citric acid bottle. DO NOT let the total volume of both bottles become larger than 1 bottle, at the end all the contents (Besides the stuff broken down into co2) will be in the Baking Soda bottle. More water in the Citric Acid side will slow down the reaction and should increase time.
> 
> Disclaimer: I did not do this, do not have one of these sets, but I DID read every post on this thread.


Thank you very much.

Has anyone tried having other bottles leading into the citric acid/baking soda bottles, so that the pressure would pull the solution from the "other" bottles into the "original" ones which would then react.

It would take up more space but should last twice as long.


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## Dropline

Aquarium_Alex said:


> Thank you very much.
> 
> Has anyone tried having other bottles leading into the citric acid/baking soda bottles, so that the pressure would pull the solution from the "other" bottles into the "original" ones which would then react.
> 
> It would take up more space but should last twice as long.


It relies on the pressure difference\balance between the 2 chambers, for some reason reminds me of a Sterling Engine. Adding 2 more I would think would knock it out of balance.


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## Burito

For anyone interested, it works fine with 1l bottles. In fact, the initial priming takes less time than with 2l. One squeeze, one short valve open and the pressure builds up in few minutes.


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## ecotanker

Hilde,

a little late, but I was caught up on the salty side of the aquarium hobby. Here are some links to help those who like to understand the process better.

A description of the reaction:
https://in.answers.yahoo.com/questi...2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?qid=20130821083148AAHbxho

to learn how to convert mole to gram
Example Problem To Convert Grams To Moles



Hilde said:


> Jimklemme perhaps this formula will help you on deciding the formula for baking soda.
> 
> I would like to understand this formula. Got any links that would explain it?


----------



## ernest

jrill said:


> Did not try it but don't see why not as long as you can accommodate the fluid volume and space for where the tube on the baking soda side vents into the bottle.


This is very important. if some of the liquid goes in to the tank you might kill all plants and fishes since sodium citrate will acidify the water 



ecotanker said:


> Hilde,
> 
> a little late, but I was caught up on the salty side of the aquarium hobby. Here are some links to help those who like to understand the process better.


Never late for this. The reaction you address are well written
If some of you want to save material and like to be exact in the reaction here are my 2 cents.
I think some of you are wasting some material by mixing equal amounts of baking soda(BS) and citric acid(CA) to obtain CO2
the reaction , as ecotanker indicates in the link is
CA+BS=water +CO2 + sodium citrate
the more exact way for you to understand this is 
*1Mol of CA* + *3Mol of BS* = 3 mol of water + sodium citrate + *3Mol of CO2*
1Mol of CA =192 g (aprox)
1Mol of BS =84 g (aprox)
1Mol of CO2= 44 g (aprox)
so in order to completely use *ALL* the BS and *ALL* the CA to produce the *best CO2 yield* you will need 

1Mol(*192 g*)CA +3Mol(84*3=*252g*)BS to produce water +Sodium Bicarbonate+ 3Mol(44*3=*132g*) CO2

For comparison the Fluval 88 systems Pressurized CO2 Kit | A7545 | Plant Care | Fluval
contains 88 g of CO2
when you mix 200g of CA+200g of BS you are using all the BS but leaving and wasting around 48 g of CA which you can use for the next reaction:wink2:


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## No.92

jrill said:


> Questions are good.
> I believe it would expire faster. One of my early test was to just double stuff which did not double the time.


When you did this test, you weren't aware of the leak you had right? Can you re-examine that mix again? I'd be curious to see:

Bottle A: 400g CA and 1200mL water
Bottle B: 400g BS and 400mL water

I have this DIY setup at home and will try that after my 1st cycle is done


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## jrill

No.92 said:


> When you did this test, you weren't aware of the leak you had right? Can you re-examine that mix again? I'd be curious to see:
> 
> Bottle A: 400g CA and 1200mL water
> Bottle B: 400g BS and 400mL water
> 
> I have this DIY setup at home and will try that after my 1st cycle is done


My best results, if I am remembering right. Double everything didn't work.

Bottle A = Citric Acid 400g to 600ml
Bottle B = Baking Soda 300g to 200ml water

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Mehmet Berk Arslan

Hello friends,im new here.I was searching about my problem,maybe you could help me.
i put 600ml water and 200gr citric acid to bottle A,put 200 ml water and 200gr carbonate to bottle B and closed them.I pushed bottle A and opened the valve for 5 sec and closed it.Then i shaked the bottles and opened the valve for 5 sec and closed it again.I did this till pressure builds up to 2 ppm.Then it worked,put the diffuser in the aquarium for 1 bubble per second.I mean,I did what i supposed to do,one day after,my pressure increases above 5 ppm randomly and the number of bubbles per second was very high.I closed the valve immediately,put out the mixes.My fishes were dying.I did water changes.Then i put the mixes and started the co2 again,after one day pressure increased randomly again.I dont understand why the pressure increases by itself.I dont know if there is something wrong with the Co2 d501 kit,im really sad about this.Does somebody know sth about this situation?
I couldnt know when the pressure increases by itself.It goes high spontaneously and randomly,i mean randomly,not the moment after i put mixes.Forexample it is ok for one day,It goes high one day after or two days after randomly,i thought that it spontaneosly goes high because in the morning the pressure is ok,in the evening randomly i look at the pressure it is high.In the evening pressure is ok,randomly i look at the pressure one day after,its high.Last night,sunday night,when i was up for drinking water,again pressure was high at 3,5 ppm,i closed the valve and took a photo.Now i woke up one our ago,it is 4 ppm.But i dont want to put the co2 kit in the aquarium anymore because fish were dying last night again.Im thinking about this problem maybe the problem is because of the needle valve.Something is wrong about the valve maybe.I dont know.


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## jrill

The needle valves that come with the units are not the best and are subject to fluctuations in pressure. The first think I would check though would be for gas leaks on your bottles. Leaks will cause the pressure to jump around as the bottles struggle to equalize.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Mehmet Berk Arslan

Thanks for the quick reply,i have been checking for a leak like you said here,i couldnt detect a leak,by the way how can i detect it?i tried to hear gas voice,tried to feel but i couldnt.Maybe i can use seal tape then try the kit again.


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## jrill

Try soapy lather, look for bubbles. I have found that those bottles of kids bubble wand bubbles work best. Whip up a lather with a foam brush and apply the soap at all the joints. Watch closely for new bubbles forming.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## BigBadWolf42

The pressure in the bottles will want to form an equilibrium because they are connected by tubing. So when the pressure is higher in bottle A than in bottle B gas will want to flow from A to B. A consequence of this is that citric acid is injected into bottle B when the pressure in bottle A becomes higher than that in bottle B, which in turn creates more CO2. This additional gas is pushed into bottle A (as well as your diffuser), again making an equilibrium but in reverse to before. When the pressure in B falls below A, citric acid is again pushed from A to B, and so the cycle continues. It's an ingenious system!


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## Mehmet Berk Arslan

jrill said:


> Try soapy lather, look for bubbles. I have found that those bottles of kids bubble wand bubbles work best. Whip up a lather with a foam brush and apply the soap at all the joints. Watch closely for new bubbles forming.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I tried a bucket full of water,put the co2 kit connected with A-B bottles,i mean i put the system under the water in the bucket and waited for gas bubbles coming from leakage-joints,if there was one.But there is no leakage.Im really sad about this.What can i do more?


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## No.92

jrill said:


> My best results, if I am remembering right. Double everything didn't work.
> 
> Bottle A = Citric Acid 400g to 600ml
> Bottle B = Baking Soda 300g to 200ml water
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


So not sure why you are using those ratios, but from a YouTube video and the documentation that came with my DIY kit for the bottles, they say to use 

Bottle A: Citric Acid 200g with 600mL water (so 1 to 3)
Bottle B: Baking Soda 200g with 200mL water (so 1 to 1)

So, in my last recharge (last night), I'm trying the doubling of everything. In my guess, it would seem like the logical thing to do and it should work if it worked on a lesser scale. Only thing I'm concerned about is the lack of space now for the CO2 to reside in the Bottle B. I can see that possibly hindering the amount of time it would last but we'll see. 

This is my 2nd cycle I guess you can call it. My first, I followed the "books", and I got 11 days out of it running 24/7 with about 1bps. Hoping to get double that if possible to increase the amount of time before recharging. I'm thinking of also doubling the number of bottles and using a T connector into the same diffuser to double it even further.


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## No.92

Mehmet Berk Arslan said:


> Hello friends,im new here.I was searching about my problem,maybe you could help me.
> i put 600ml water and 200gr citric acid to bottle A,put 200 ml water and 200gr carbonate to bottle B and closed them.I pushed bottle A and opened the valve for 5 sec and closed it.Then i shaked the bottles and opened the valve for 5 sec and closed it again.I did this till pressure builds up to 2 ppm.Then it worked,put the diffuser in the aquarium for 1 bubble per second.I mean,I did what i supposed to do,one day after,my pressure increases above 5 ppm randomly and the number of bubbles per second was very high.I closed the valve immediately,put out the mixes.My fishes were dying.I did water changes.Then i put the mixes and started the co2 again,after one day pressure increased randomly again.I dont understand why the pressure increases by itself.I dont know if there is something wrong with the Co2 d501 kit,im really sad about this.Does somebody know sth about this situation?
> I couldnt know when the pressure increases by itself.It goes high spontaneously and randomly,i mean randomly,not the moment after i put mixes.Forexample it is ok for one day,It goes high one day after or two days after randomly,i thought that it spontaneosly goes high because in the morning the pressure is ok,in the evening randomly i look at the pressure it is high.In the evening pressure is ok,randomly i look at the pressure one day after,its high.Last night,sunday night,when i was up for drinking water,again pressure was high at 3,5 ppm,i closed the valve and took a photo.Now i woke up one our ago,it is 4 ppm.But i dont want to put the co2 kit in the aquarium anymore because fish were dying last night again.Im thinking about this problem maybe the problem is because of the needle valve.Something is wrong about the valve maybe.I dont know.


I'm wondering if you got a bad unit. I didn't buy the same one that others have on here. I got this one:






Not sure if that link will come through. But it has worked flawlessly for me so far.


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## No.92

So just trying to continue the experiments here and for this cycle, I doubled all the recommended ingredients. So, it's:

400g CA / 1200mL Water
400g Baking Soda / 400mL Water

I was afraid that Bottle B may overflow in the end, but there appears to be some loss of "stuff" during the process. Last cycle I did the recommended and got 11 days running 24/7 at about 1 bps. This time around, which is still going, I changed it up to be between 1-2 bps. Currently, it's been 1 week and still going strong. I did notice that I can't keep the pressure in the green zone and had problems getting into the green zone at startup because the bottles were just too tight as it was. 

So after 1 week, this is what the bottle levels look like:


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## No.92

Quick update. It's been 12 days so far and it's still going however it's on its last legs. The citric acid is fairly low now. However, I've been running it at about 2bps or higher this time and still 24/7. So, if I had kept it to 1bps, it would have lasted me over 24 days I suspect.

One thing to mention, with this much mixture, you will not be in the green zone much if at all. Which is fine I believe as there is enough pressure to push the bubbles out. I am using a ladder diffuser so that probably makes it easier so if you are using a ceramic disk, it may be different.


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## jrill

I found that I could get a couple of days past when the citric acid was gone, buy I only ran mine 8hrs a day.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## No.92

An update. This 2nd cycle finally finished on Friday May 20th so that was 13 days +/- 0.5 day. Again, this time around I ran it at closer to 2bps instead of the 1bps and this is for 24/7. I had doubled the recommended mixture to try to get more days and/or bubbles. So I believe it worked since I got a little more than the same amount of time but at close to twice the bps rate. Here is what the 2L bottles looked like after it was done. Left side is CA and right is BS.


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## sangeeth

Wouldn't turning off the system cause the bottle to explode?


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## jrill

sangeeth said:


> Wouldn't turning off the system cause the bottle to explode?


No

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## Hoppy

jrill said:


> No


Because the system automatically shuts off the flow of acid into the baking soda as the CO2 pressure builds up. It is really an ingenious system! If it would work for a month between recharges it would be virtually the perfect system (in my opinion).


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## Hoppy

Is this schematic diagram correct? I copied it from an ad, and modified it slightly, adding a check valve and solenoid valve. I'm going to try this when I get all the "stuff".

EDIT: Corrected schematic


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## jrill

yours is reversed from what I used.










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## Hoppy

I corrected the schematic. I still find it a bit difficult to get my mind wrapped around this system :|
Now, I think I finally understand the tee fitting inside the soda bottle - it is an anti siphon device, to prevent siphoning back to the acid bottle. But, I don't see any function for the airstone, or whatever it is, on the end of the one tube.

I'm going to try white vinegar first. I can see the advantage of stronger acid if you want a high bubble rate, but I don't want more than about 2 bbs for my low medium light tank. And, I won't use a diffuser that needs pressure to allow flow of CO2. I will use a little internal filter/powerhead to chop up the bubbles, at least to start out.


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## jrill

I'm also not sure what that pieces is for . At first I thought it was a block but you can blow through it. I'll have to see if it's a one-way valve, that never occurred to me before. The tee in the other bottle is also where the citric acid enters the baking soda bottle .

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## Hoppy

jrill said:


> I'm also not sure what that pieces is for . At first I thought it was a block but you can blow through it. I'll have to see if it's a one-way valve, that never occurred to me before. The tee in the other bottle is also where the citric acid enters the baking soda bottle .
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I just found a more detailed version of that schematic: that little "ball" is a weight to hold the tube down at the bottom. Good idea, so I will figure out an alternative weight.


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## Hoppy

I set up my vinegar/baking soda CO2 system today, and have it in the bath tub to see what I might have done wrong. First I found I had reversed two tube connections, so after fixing that I squeezed the vinegar bottle several times with the shut off valve both open and closed. After about an hour the bubbling started in my bubble counter, and continued very steadily. It adjusted to about 2 bbs. When I closed the shut-off valve, solenoid valve, the bubbling stopped immediately, and the pressure didn't build up at all in 30 minutes, so I believe it works fine. Tonight I will install and connect it to my tank.









EDIT: It is now running on the aquarium, at about 1 bubble per second, which makes a big surge in tiny CO2 bubbles every second. So far, no measurable pressure rise in the bottles, with solenoid valve open or closed. I'm sold - this is the DIY system of the 21st century!


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## Hoppy

For the second day now the bubbles have not started when the solenoid valve opens. Both times I had to open the needle valve a bit more, squeeze the vinegar bottle several times, and shake up the baking soda solution. Then I got a huge surge of CO2, and had to readjust the needle valve to reduce it. Something is wrong, but I don't have a clue yet what it is???


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## jrill

I wish I could help, but I have not read good things about trying to use vinegar instead of citric acid.

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## Hoppy

jrill said:


> I wish I could help, but I have not read good things about trying to use vinegar instead of citric acid.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


That could be the problem. When this finishes I may try citric acid to see what the difference is.


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## Gamezawy

I have been using this DIY method for a year now, and i don't know how do describe the awesomeness of this method, Every time i remember the pain of the yeast and sugar method i thank god for this Citric acid and Baking soda

I have a high tech nano tank that uses a 1 bubble every 4 sec and this system can work for about 2 months maybe +15 days that is about 75 days of CO2 

1st i made the caps myself then i bought it as it is very cheap and,for the valves i used a compressor work valves that they are using it for high air pressure machines ( compressors ), i used 2 valves one for on,off and other for precise control











This system cycle is working now for about 45 days from 18\6\2016 the small bottle is working as a bubble counter, i used the normal formula with this cycle 200 gm of each ingredients


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## sangeeth

HI, I am worried. I did everything as per instructions and installed it. But the pressure is raising and now it is 3.2 bar in the gauge and the reaction is still going on. Bottle A is still supplying to bottle B drop by drop. what should I do?

Bump: HI, I am worried. I did everything as per instructions and installed it. But the pressure is raising and now it is 3.2 bar in the gauge and the reaction is still going on. Bottle A is still supplying to bottle B drop by drop. what should I do?


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## jrill

The pressure can go pretty high. Usually if the System keeps pumping it means you have a leak somewhere. It keeps moving citric acid and raising pressure in an attempt to equalize the pressure in both bottles but it can't because of the leak. Check all your connections with soapy water.

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## Hoppy

sangeeth said:


> HI, I am worried. I did everything as per instructions and installed it. But the pressure is raising and now it is 3.2 bar in the gauge and the reaction is still going on. Bottle A is still supplying to bottle B drop by drop. what should I do?
> 
> Bump: HI, I am worried. I did everything as per instructions and installed it. But the pressure is raising and now it is 3.2 bar in the gauge and the reaction is still going on. Bottle A is still supplying to bottle B drop by drop. what should I do?


Do you have the tee, labeled 5 in the schematic, installed? I think it is supposed to break the siphon so it is the pressure difference that moves the acid, not the siphon.


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## Hoppy

I restarted my set-up using citric acid instead of vinegar. No bubbles, until I fixed a kinked hose. Now it is chugging out a bubble per second or more. Tomorrow I will find out if it can restart after the solenoid valve opens again. I used the standard mix - 200 grams of citric acid in 600 ml of water, and 200 grams of bicarbonate of soda in 200 ml of water.

UPDATE: I find I have to monitor and readjust the needle valve every hour or so, or the bubble rate drops to less than half what I had. Also, it doesn't restart well at all. Today I had to move the in-tank "diffuser" before it would start at all. The reason for this isn't clear yet, and is probably not related to the CO2 generator.

UPDATE: The bubbles seem to have stopped now. If I shake up the baking soda bottle I get a small surge, which doesn't last long. So, I suspect I need to change the solutions. If that is the problem it only worked for about 3 days. I will double the amount of each solution when I change them.

UPDATE: Today I installed a new, all metal check valve in the system, replacing my plastic one. I finally figured out that a big part of my problem was the check valve located down next to the solenoid valve, which allows water to fill the tube from the check valve up to the top of the tank. That makes it very hard for CO2 to ever get back up to the tank again. The new check valve is located up at the top of the tank, and the CO2 flow started very quickly when the solenoid opened. The old check valve still works fine, so I wasted the money buying the new one. I also haven't replaced the liquids in the bottles yet, since it still generates some CO2. Tomorrow I will do that.


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## SwissCheeseHead

i'm getting into the DIY CO2 game as well and wanted to join in on the discussion. Hoppy suggested making a 1 dKH solution for my drop checker to get readings closer to 10ppm for medium light. I'm also thinking about getting a cheap solenoid like this one
[Ebay Link Removed] Magnetic Solenoid Valve CO2 DIY Aquarium System Regulator Night Time DMA | eBay[/url]
an putting it in conjuction on a timer with my light. Seems like this should work?

Also just to confirm, if I make the 4 dKH solution, then dilute it again by taking 250mL of 4 dKH to 750mL of distilled water, that will get me 1 dKH solution, right? I haven't done dilutions for years!


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## jrill

I've had my citric acid system down for a few months. Then we moved to North Carolina. Time to fire up the co2 on my low to medium light 20 long again. Just placed my order for citric acid on Amazon. When I moved the tank and set it up in January I planted several different crypts combining plants from two tanks together. I dose excel and growth has been good but very slow. I'll be interested to see what the co2 will do on this tank.

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## Hoppy

The very small amount of CO2 I add to my low medium light tank has caused my crypts to grow much better, not fast, but now they look much healthier than before, and they are growing instead of just surviving. I am completely sold on using low CO2 concentrations for lower light tanks. My 1 dKH drop checker just gets bluish green, and I'm adding about one bbs of CO2 in a 65 gallon tank. (The drop checker is very blue with no CO2).


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## SwissCheeseHead

I just set it up! I'm doing 1 bps without a drop checker. (Cross my fingers). 

Thanks for the affirmation Hoppy. I'm really excited to see what kind of results come from this. Do you dose EI? I'm hoping I see improvement in the next couple weeks. Do you have a good source for citric acid?


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## Hoppy

I'm using the same source of citric acid as jrill used: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...-citric-acid-baking-soda-co2.html#post7404617 I bought only the 2 pound bag because I wasn't sure how well this would work out. 

I dose approximately per the EI Method, but modified as described here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...fertilizing-65-gal-low-medium-light-tank.html

The CO2 diffuser I'm using is described here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/1071257-simple-co2-diffuser.html I have used this before and was always satisfied with how it works.


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## SwissCheeseHead

Thanks! I'm using a ceramic diffuser under my Eheim intake. Seems to be working great so far as i hardly see any bubbles. I will be dosing per EI method too. Just need to get some KNO3.


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## SwissCheeseHead

Do you find that the needle valve adjustment is not accurate or consistent? I'll set it to approximately 1bps, but after an hour or so it'll slow down, so I'll adjust it again. Last night, I adjusted before I went to bed, and when I checked it this morning, it was bubbling very rapidly, so I adjusted it again. Thankfully, just one of my juvie rainbows was near the surface but I'm either going to have to replace the needle valve or not do CO2 at the risk of my fish!

do you think it'll be worth getting a solenoid, or replacing the needle valve? This was suppose to be cheap!

BTW, I bought a 5 lb bag of Spicy World citric acid for just under $16 on amazon.


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## jrill

I put a better needle valve on my setup. The one that came on my system was not the best. I also added a solenoid. I still needed to make an adjustment every day or so as the pressure in the bottles change.

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## Hoppy

I have to make needle valve adjustments a couple or more times a day. The bubble rate seems to slowly drop during the day. But, since I am also using Metricide, this changing bubble rate hasn't yet caused a major BBA problem. I have some, on dead leaves, but that is all. I just need to get more involved with trimming the dead leaves.

My reason for doing all of my experimenting with DIY CO2 is because my plants were largely just sitting there and not growing, so I wanted to see if adding even a small amount of CO2 would help, and it has done so. All of my plants are doing much better now, making the tank look like I wanted it to. It just isn't fun having a tank of water with stunted plants in it.

I did some more research about low light with low CO2 yesterday: Tom Barr has said several times in the past that lower light tanks will benefit a lot from getting even low levels of CO2. Like all really serious planted tank hobbyists, he tends to use much more light, much more CO2, and try much more demanding plants. So, he doesn't say much about the benefit of low CO2 anymore. And, a few years ago, you could read an article on the Tropica website that showed that adding any amount of CO2 gives better plant growth. That article seems to have disappeared now, probably because there is little money to be made from promoting low CO2 tanks.


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## SwissCheeseHead

My plants are doing the same. They are just sitting in the tank, slowly melting away. It's disheartening to see a tank with nice bushy plants put into it, then slowly recede after several months. I'm really hoping that the CO2 allows the plants to grow better and greener. I've always wanted a lush tank. I also dose Excel in the tank and I will continue to help keep the algae at bay.

I'm already looking into getting a pressurized system if the 5 lbs of citric acid doesn't do it for me lol. This is like a gateway into the pressurized world.


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## jrill

On Tuesday I fired up the system again on my 20 long. Starting with a slow bubble rate. Somewhere in the 1/2 bps or so. Comes out to a small pH drop from 7.7 to 7.4 or so. Not using a diffuser. Feeding it to the intake on my eheim.

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## Hoppy

The problem I haven't found a solution to, yet, is that when the system is off for 16 hours, it won't restart when the solenoid valve opens. To get it to start I have to squeeze some acid into the soda bottle, then shake up the soda bottle. That generates a lot of CO2 at once, but then it works the rest of the day. The baking soda in the bottle never has fully dissolved into the water, so there is a layer of it at the bottom of the bottle. Shaking it mixes it up with the water and the CO2 again starts forming.

I started with 200 g of baking soda in 200 ml water, than renewed it with 400 g of soda in 400 ml of water. I suspect I will need to increase the water to about 600 ml, with 400 g of baking soda. That should result in more of the soda dissolving in the water. What other effects it will have I don't know. The citric acid has been 600 ml of water, 200 g of dry acid each time, and neither time did even half of the acid get used up. So, I should be able to use less total acid - either 200 g in 400 ml or 100 g in 200 ml. I will restart the system tomorrow, so I will decide then which way to go. Any suggestions???

My reasoning is that if all of the baking soda dissolves in the water I won't have a stratified "solution", where the liquid is low on baking soda, but the leftover soda isn't accessible to the acid. I'm also wondering about using a second check valve, at the output of the solenoid valve, to cause the shutdown pressure to be about 1 psi, instead of .5 psi. That might help get the CO2 to flow to the tank.


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## jrill

That is strange. I have never had the problem of it not restarting the next day. The bubble count varies many days but it always restarts without having to squeeze the citric acid. The baking soda rarely dissolves till much later in the life of the mix. In fact I have tried putting just enough water over the baking soda to cover it with maybe a 1/4" inch of water and it works just as well. Do you think the problem may be with the solenoid? Maybe getting clogged?

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## jrill

Or how bout the check valve. Is there too little pressure to crack it open? 

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## Hoppy

The check valve is a flapper type valve, with less than .5 psi to open it. I did a few experiments with it and was unable to find any sign that the valve was plugged. The solenoid valve is another thing. Of course it is cheap, so who knows what could go wrong with it? I have turned it on and off repeatedly and the flow didn't start. I have rapped on it with the same results. However, none of that is enough to say it isn't getting stuck in the off position. If I can find a way to easily verify that it is open I will try it. In any case, shaking the soda bottle always makes the flow start with a big surge (as if the valve suddenly pops open). But, the shaking of the soda bottle doesn't cause a big pressure increase, if it causes any at all.


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## jrill

The more I think about it, if it were me I would bypass the solenoid somehow to make sure that's not the problem. I used a ball valve to turn it off/on every day before I added a solenoid. My first solenoid was a cheap one I bought on eBay. Can't remember why, but I did upgrade to a clippard 12v with a manifold. Thats what I am using now. The eBay one was 120v. I currently use it on my air compressor to open the bleed pipe to clear water build up. It still works but sometimes even though I hear it click I have to switch it on and off a few times to get it to open.

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## Hoppy

jrill said:


> The more I think about it, if it were me I would bypass the solenoid somehow to make sure that's not the problem. I used a ball valve to turn it off/on every day before I added a solenoid. My first solenoid was a cheap one I bought on no ebay links allowed Can't remember why, but I did upgrade to a clippard 12v with a manifold. Thats what I am using now. The eBay one was 120v. I currently use it on my air compressor to open the bleed pipe to clear water build up. It still works but sometimes even though I hear it click I have to switch it on and off a few times to get it to open.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I'm using that Ebay solenoid, too. Its advantages are: cheap, small, and cool operation. But, perhaps its disadvantage is that it often won't open.

One option I have is to omit the shutoff entirely, and run CO2 24 hours a day. Now that I think about it that is probably a good idea, and if it works reliably that way I could look into a better solenoid. Of course I would have to recharge the system more often that way.

Now that I have found that it doesn't take much CO2 to make a major improvement to the plants I think I may switch to 0.5 dKH water in my drop checker, too, so I can better monitor what is happening with the water. It takes less than 10 ppm of CO2 in the water to get almost all of the benefit of CO2 in low light tanks.

EDIT: I removed the solenoid valve and disassembled it to see why it might not work consistently. All that I can see is that it looks like it should be marked with an "in" and "out" port. I may have had it connected so the pressure on the "in" port worked against the valve opening instead of so it helps to open the valve. Before I think about replacing it I will be sure I reconnect it in what appears to be the correct orientation.










This is a crude illustration of how the solenoid valve works. If the flow enters above the plunger that seals off the inlet hole the pressure may be more than the solenoid can overcome, so the plunger doesn't lift off the hole and the valve stays shut. (My guess, only)


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## Hilde

jrill said:


> Your just going to come out the neddle valve on your bottle and into the solenoid.


Is the solenoid still working? I have the same 1 and was thinking of putting on a paintball Co2 system.


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## jrill

Hilde said:


> Is the solenoid still working? I have the same 1 and was thinking of putting on a paintball Co2 system.


I swapped that one out for the clippard. The one here I currently use on my air compressor's drain valve. It works well there. 

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## Hilde

jrill said:


> I swapped that one out for the clippard. The one here I currently use on my air compressor's drain valve. It works well there.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Did you post a pic of it on this thread? Can you tell me aprox where it is if have. Such a long thread to go through and I have had a sinus headache all day.


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## jrill

Here is a current shot.









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## Hilde

Thanks for the pic.


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## Hilde

Rohan said:


>


I am trying to understand how to choose the correct Pneumatic to fit on the hose. What did you choose.


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## jrill

uxcell

Polyurethane PU Air Compressor Hose Tube 7 Meter 6mm x 4mm Royal Blue

From Amazon.



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## Hilde

jrill said:


> uxcell
> 
> Polyurethane PU Air Compressor Hose Tube 7 Meter 6mm x 4mm Royal Blue
> 
> From Amazon.


Thanks! Actually looking for Pneumatic ¼ NPT Barb 6mm. That helped a lot found it at a good price on Amazon. Now thinking that the polyurethane tubing will last longer than the vinyl tubing I was going to use. So I am going to get it too.


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## Hilde

What size NPT adapters did you use to connect the solenoid?


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## jrill

uxcell 5 Pcs 1/8" PT Male Thread 6mm Push In Joint Pneumatic Connector Quick Fittings.
I used these also from Amazon directly into the manifold that came with the solenoid.



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## Hilde

jrill said:


> uxcell 5 Pcs 1/8" PT Male Thread 6mm Push In Joint Pneumatic Connector Quick Fittings.
> I used these also from Amazon directly into the manifold that came with the solenoid.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Thanks!


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## Hilde

Jrill what diffuser are you using? What PSI do you keep the system at?


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## HaeSuse

Just as an update. I've got 2 Acid/Soda systems going. One for my 2.5G shrimp tank, and one for my 55G community planted. I'm using the OTHER system (the one that's just the off-white 2-liter caps with a pressure gauge, and tube running from one to the other), but the same formula. 200g Acid in 600ml water, and 200g Soda in 200ml water. I do not take any sort of special concern in getting it right. I actually just drew 2 lines on the bottles. 1 to indicate what 200g of soda looks like, and 1 to indicate where 200g of soda + 200ml of water ends up. Same for the soda bottle. So, just fill to the line with acid/soda, then top off to the 2nd line with water. I'm assuming this introduces a solid 5-10% margin of error in my formulas, but I didn't think it would matter much.

And, when running the 2.5G one at ~1BPS, for ~10 hours per day, for 8 days now, I've barely used any Acid at all. The gauge reads a tiny bit over 2psi, right now. Out of the green, but not enough to worry about, I think. But, it is seriously cool that I'm less than 10% from the top line. And, rough mathing it all out, maybe it will last for 2-3 months. Absolutely awesome, if you ask me.

On the 55G, pushing ~5BPS, for around ~9 hours a day, I'm having to refill once a week. The gauge has been around 1.5psi. Not great on refill time, but I just do it when doing water changes. No big deal. Until I can scrape up the money, I do believe this will cover my CO2 needs just fine. We've been pretty good at keeping the drop checker where we want it, as my wife is a stay at home mommy, and can pop in and check on both systems a few times a day.

I will say that without that luxury, it would be very hard to maintain a stable CO2 saturation, and pH level, using this equipment. It can fluctuate quite a bit during the say, we've found. Maybe a solenoid, so the horrible little valve wouldn't have to be messed with each time you turn it on and off, would help. Dunno.

Working for us, though.


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## jrill

Hilde said:


> Jrill what diffuser are you using? What PSI do you keep the system at?


No diffuser. I run the hose to the intake on my eheim. Pressure varies every week or so. I don't think the gauge is worth much so I don't look at the numbers. Let's just say it goes from low in the beginning to high after a couple of weeks and slowly back to low till gone.

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## Hilde

jrill said:


> No diffuser. I run the hose to the intake on my eheim.


So you put the co2 output under the uptake of the filter?


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## jrill

Hilde said:


> So you put the co2 output under the uptake of the filter?


Actually I drilled a hole through the intake tube and pipe the co2 directly into the intake.

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## Hilde

I read here having your canister filter dissolve the CO2 is you risk getting a gas lock around the impeller with filters that have a top-mounted impeller. Is your filter motor on the top. Have you experienced this?


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## jrill

Hilde said:


> I read here having your canister filter dissolve the CO2 is you risk getting a gas lock around the impeller with filters that have a top-mounted impeller. Is your filter motor on the top. Have you experienced this?


It is impeller on top. It's an eheim classic. I've done it this way for awhile now and also several years ago with no problems. I suppose if you tried to pump too much gas in you may have trouble but i never have. 

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## Hoppy

I have been trying various things to get my citric acid CO2 system to work right. Last night while once again reading the instructions for using it, I finally realized the importance of building up pressure in the bottles. It is that pressure that drives the feeding of acid solution into the soda solution. If that pressure is too low, like essentially zero, the system stops working. That means, for any set of solutions in the two bottles, there is one bubble rate that keeps the system going at a stable rate. Too high a bubble rate drops the pressure, and it shuts down. Too low a bubble rate and the pressure continues to build up until it stop feeding acid to the soda.

I wrote up my own instructions and explanation of the parts of the system, and plan to post that here, once I find out if I made any mistakes, and correct them. Here is what I have now. What have I got wrong?


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## mcdanielnc89

Hoppy said:


> I have been trying various things to get my citric acid CO2 system to work right. Last night while once again reading the instructions for using it, I finally realized the importance of building up pressure in the bottles. It is that pressure that drives the feeding of acid solution into the soda solution. If that pressure is too low, like essentially zero, the system stops working. That means, for any set of solutions in the two bottles, there is one bubble rate that keeps the system going at a stable rate. Too high a bubble rate drops the pressure, and it shuts down. Too low a bubble rate and the pressure continues to build up until it stop feeding acid to the soda.
> 
> I wrote up my own instructions and explanation of the parts of the system, and plan to post that here, once I find out if I made any mistakes, and correct them. Here is what I have now. What have I got wrong?


I use this as well. but I don't use those measurements for citric acid and baking soda

I use 200Grams of Citric Acid and 600 ml of water
i use 200Grams of baking soda with 200ml of water


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## jrill

I have not found your statements on bubble rate and pressure to occur in my system. I can make needle valve adjustments to keep the bubble rate consistent depending on bottle pressure. The system has never shutdown because pressure got too high, and it has never dropped so low that it stops producing co2 until the solution is used up. I have ran real slow bubble rates and as the pressure drops acid is pushed over to equalize pressure and it rises again. I have not seen bubble rate have the same effect on pressure.
On bottle A the original instructions I used called for 600 ml of water.

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## jrill

Your hose in bottle B. Do you have that going all the way to the bottom of the bottle? 

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## Hoppy

jrill said:


> Your hose in bottle B. Do you have that going all the way to the bottom of the bottle?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Yes, it goes to within about 1/8 inch of the bottom of the bottle, if not lower. But, it shouldn't matter, should it? If it was higher the acid would just drip into the soda water.



> I have not found your statements on bubble rate and pressure to occur in my system. I can make needle valve adjustments to keep the bubble rate consistent depending on bottle pressure. The system has never shutdown because pressure got too high, and it has never dropped so low that it stops producing co2 until the solution is used up. I have ran real slow bubble rates and as the pressure drops acid is pushed over to equalize pressure and it rises again. I have not seen bubble rate have the same effect on pressure.
> On bottle A the original instructions I used called for 600 ml of water.


Higher pressure may have little effect, I think, but lower pressure reduces the bubble rate, reducing the rate of addition of acid, which further reduces the bubble rate, and it gradually stops entirely. That has consistently happened to me. I am using more water, but proportionally more acid powder too, to reduce the height the acid has to rise to get over to the soda bottle. My acid level has only very slowly dropped as the system ages, probably because I'm trying to get a consistent 1 to 2 bbs bubble rate, which doesn't take much acid. As far as I can tell, neither the amount of acid nor the amount of baking soda has much effect on anything but how long it takes to deplete the soda. But, I'm still struggling to understand what I see happening. And, that's why this chart is just a preliminary description of what I think is happening and why. I'm confused about why such a simple system seems so hard for me to grasp.


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## jrill

The hose should go all the way down, so sounds like your good. I have had mine running since August 16 keeping it around 1 to 2 bps. Don't understand why our acid use is so different. For the first few weeks it goes over slowly to maintain pressure. Several weeks in I see a large move of acid and a spike in pressure which will run for a couple weeks with maybe an inch of acid left. It will use that last inch in a few days keeping the pressure at its highest point. Then it will run for along time until the pressure is gone depending on bubble rate. I never see a drop in pressure until this final phase.

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## mcdanielnc89

How long do you guys run the CO2 for?


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## Hoppy

mcdanielnc89 said:


> How long do you guys run the CO2 for?


I keep mine "running" 24 hours a day, but with the difficulty I have in keeping the bubble rate up, it only runs at full output for 8 hours or less per day. I'm hoping that keeping the pressure up will keep it running better.

I soaked all the leakage points with bubble wand soap solution, and no bubbles, including very small ones appeared anywhere. At that time my bottle pressure was near zero though. I may repeat the soaping tomorrow after I see how it is after a day with no attention.


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## mcdanielnc89

Hoppy said:


> I keep mine "running" 24 hours a day, but with the difficulty I have in keeping the bubble rate up, it only runs at full output for 8 hours or less per day. I'm hoping that keeping the pressure up will keep it running better.
> 
> I soaked all the leakage points with bubble wand soap solution, and no bubbles, including very small ones appeared anywhere. At that time my bottle pressure was near zero though. I may repeat the soaping tomorrow after I see how it is after a day with no attention.


I ran mine 24/7 with 1bps. I ran into this dropping my ph to 6. Still unknown as to why though.


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## jrill

Mine runs 8 hrs a day controlled by a solenoid.

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## natemcnutty

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I use this as well. but I don't use those measurements for citric acid and baking soda
> 
> I use 200Grams of Citric Acid and 600 ml of water
> i use 200Grams of baking soda with 200ml of water


I think this ^ might be your issue Hoppy. My DIY is running at 1 bubble every 4-5 seconds in my 20L, and I've not seen this issue in the month I've been running it. Basically, I used the same measurements mcdanielnc89 posted, compressed the citric acid bottle to push the solution into the banking soda side until I literally couldn't squeeze the bottle hard enough to get more citric acid solution into the baking soda bottle, and then it's been balancing itself ever since. 

I do run 24/7 since my rates are so low that it wouldn't be worth the hassle or cost of adding a solenoid. I figure at the rate I'm at, maybe it will build up a small amount overnight to be used the next day, but it's probably mostly just gassing off... [emoji14]


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## natemcnutty

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I ran mine 24/7 with 1bps. I ran into this dropping my ph to 6. Still unknown as to why though.


What is your KH? If you have low KH, then it can't buffer pH as well. Unfortunately, I don't know of a natural way to raise KH without also increasing pH. Maybe someone else knows.


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## mcdanielnc89

natemcnutty said:


> What is your KH? If you have low KH, then it can't buffer pH as well. Unfortunately, I don't know of a natural way to raise KH without also increasing pH. Maybe someone else knows.


Well, When my pH was at a 6. My kH was a 0 or 1 MAYBE. There's a whole thread about this if you wanna read it over here. Long story short, I haven't ran CO2 for almost 3 weeks to try getting everything else stable.


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## Hoppy

natemcnutty said:


> What is your KH? If you have low KH, then it can't buffer pH as well. Unfortunately, I don't know of a natural way to raise KH without also increasing pH. Maybe someone else knows.


See: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...linity-carbonate-hardness-kh.html#post9557490
KH cannot be raised without also raising the pH.


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## Hoppy

Today I found my bubble rate had dropped considerably overnight, and the pressure dropped to about 1-2 psi. I "pumped" the acid bottle to get the pressure back to about 5 psi, and it has been producing about 1 bbs all day. I also used bubble wand soap liquid to check for leaks again and found none. I'm not sure why the pressure dropped overnight.


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## jrill

Hoppy said:


> Today I found my bubble rate had dropped considerably overnight, and the pressure dropped to about 1-2 psi. I "pumped" the acid bottle to get the pressure back to about 5 psi, and it has been producing about 1 bbs all day. I also used bubble wand soap liquid to check for leaks again and found none. I'm not sure why the pressure dropped overnight.


Hmm. Your experiences with your system seems to be so different from what I get from mine. To state the obvious, something is off. 

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## jrill

Thinking out loud here. The problem seems to be that citric acid does not move to bottle B when it's needed.
As the pressure drops in B acid moves. On mine I can see it flow out the t fitting in bottle B. As the pressure in B rises it gets higher than bottle A. I can then see gas bubble out the bottom of the weight thing in A until the pressure is equal in both bottles. It's that pressure that will then be used to move acid again from A to B. But why doesn't that happen in yours all the time?

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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> Mine runs 8 hrs a day controlled by a solenoid.


What kind of solenoid do you use. could you provide a link? I'm trying to look for one maybe this will help me when i start up my system again after my tank stabilizes.


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## jrill

mcdanielnc89 said:


> What kind of solenoid do you use. could you provide a link? I'm trying to look for one maybe this will help me when i start up my system again after my tank stabilizes.


http://www.diyco2regulator.com/clippard-mouse-solenoid-with-manifold

This one but in 12v.

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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> CO2 Regulator Parts | CO2 For Planted Tanks And Home Brewing. CO2 Regulator Solenoid with 15490-5 manifold
> 
> This one but in 12v.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


do you ave a picture close up of this? I'm confused how this would go on and such.. TIA~


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## Hoppy

jrill said:


> Thinking out loud here. The problem seems to be that citric acid does not move to bottle B when it's needed.
> As the pressure drops in B acid moves. On mine I can see it flow out the t fitting in bottle B. As the pressure in B rises it gets higher than bottle A. I can then see gas bubble out the bottom of the weight thing in A until the pressure is equal in both bottles. It's that pressure that will then be used to move acid again from A to B. But why doesn't that happen in yours all the time?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


What you describe is what I see when the system is working well. But, that goes on for only 3-4 hours or a bit longer. Then the pressure has dropped back well below 5 psi. So, I squeeze the acid bottle some more to pump more acid over to the soda bottle, the soda solution fizzes, the pressure starts building back up, and if I repeat the squeezing a few times, it goes back to 7psi to as high as 10 psi, but I can't squeeze hard enough to get it any higher. The CO2 then flows at about 1 bbs for another 3-4 hours. Clearly something basic is wrong, but I can't see what it is, and I recheck the plumbing each time, thinking I will see the mistake, but never find it.

I use a 1 Liter bottle as a bubble counter, with the bottle nearly full of water. Does that suggest a failure mode? Perhaps your use of a small bubble counter is the difference, but why would it matter?

Is the weight on the tube in the soda bottle hollow - so the end of the tube is open? Mine is.


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## kinsa

Looks like you have a leak on the citric acid bottle.

The best way to test a leak is to slowly open the needle valve (5) until the citric acid is in between the hose connecting (1) and (1) on the figure and then fully close the needle valve (5). Mark the position of the citric acid and wait overnight.

If there's no leak in the system, the citric acid position will remain constant.Otherwise the position will move towards the bottle where the leak is.

Cheers.


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## jrill

Hoppy said:


> Is the weight on the tube in the soda bottle hollow - so the end of the tube is open? Mine is.


Yes it is.



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## jrill

kinsa said:


> Looks like you have a leak on the citric acid bottle.
> 
> The best way to test a leak is to slowly open the needle valve (5) until the citric acid is in between the hose connecting (1) and (1) on the figure and then fully close the needle valve (5). Mark the position of the citric acid and wait overnight.
> 
> If there's no leak in the system, the citric acid position will remain constant.Otherwise the position will move towards the bottle where the leak is.
> 
> Cheers.


I know you have checked for leaks several times but I keep circling back to thinking that too. When I have had issues it's always been due to a leak. I even started putting Teflon tape on the threads of the bottles to insure there leak proof. 

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## Hoppy

kinsa said:


> Looks like you have a leak on the citric acid bottle.
> 
> The best way to test a leak is to slowly open the needle valve (5) until the citric acid is in between the hose connecting (1) and (1) on the figure and then fully close the needle valve (5). Mark the position of the citric acid and wait overnight.
> 
> If there's no leak in the system, the citric acid position will remain constant.Otherwise the position will move towards the bottle where the leak is.
> 
> Cheers.


I agree that it is likely that I have a leak, probably in the acid bottle portion. But, I have always been able to find leaks with soap solutions, as tiny mounds of bubbles, and I can't seem to find any here. I'm not sure my needle valve will totally shut off, and I don't want to force it because that can damage the valve. I will work on this one way or another today.

One disadvantage of having a CO2 system in the tank stand, under the tank, is that it is hard for people my age to spend a lot of time working on it or watching it. That may be why I haven't been able to make this work right.


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## jrill

Hoppy said:


> I agree that it is likely that I have a leak, probably in the acid bottle portion. But, I have always been able to find leaks with soap solutions, as tiny mounds of bubbles, and I can't seem to find any here. I'm not sure my needle valve will totally shut off, and I don't want to force it because that can damage the valve. I will work on this one way or another today.
> 
> One disadvantage of having a CO2 system in the tank stand, under the tank, is that it is hard for people my age to spend a lot of time working on it or watching it. That may be why I haven't been able to make this work right.


I feel your pain. My knees or back, or heck anything else for that matter, doesn't work the way it used too.

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## fishkeeper01

I recently set mine up. Currently I'm using the kit you get from Amazon, but when I tried to set it up I couldn't get the pressure into the green zone. The bottle is to a point where it won;'t let me squeeze it to push more citric acid into the baking soda. I'm running about 1-2 bps so far and it comes out of my diffuser. Should I worry that the pressure gauge isn't in the green?


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## jrill

fishkeeper01 said:


> I recently set mine up. Currently I'm using the kit you get from Amazon, but when I tried to set it up I couldn't get the pressure into the green zone. The bottle is to a point where it won;'t let me squeeze it to push more citric acid into the baking soda. I'm running about 1-2 bps so far and it comes out of my diffuser. Should I worry that the pressure gauge isn't in the green?


Nothing to worry about. Mine doesn't start in the green either. I don't think these gauges are very accurate. As long as co2 is coming out you should be fine.
Don't forget that you can also raise the pressure and get more acid in by opening the valve and bleeding off pressure.
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## Hoppy

jrill said:


> Nothing to worry about. Mine doesn't start in the green either. I don't think these gauges are very accurate. As long as co2 is coming out you should be fine.
> Don't forget that you can also raise the pressure and get more acid in by opening the valve and bleeding off pressure.
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Logically, if you lose pressure downstream of the soda bottle you get more acid in that bottle, and the system just keeps on working. But, if you lose pressure from the acid bottle, the system slows down or stops. Does that seem correct? If so, the critical areas where no leakage is tolerable are all the potential leak points on the acid bottle, and tubing to the soda bottle. Right?


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## Watercrayfish

You don't even need a pressure gauge to make it work. If you can control the CO2 flow and maintain a high pressure in the bottles it will work for days without any squeezing.


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## jrill

Hoppy said:


> Logically, if you lose pressure downstream of the soda bottle you get more acid in that bottle, and the system just keeps on working. But, if you lose pressure from the acid bottle, the system slows down or stops. Does that seem correct? If so, the critical areas where no leakage is tolerable are all the potential leak points on the acid bottle, and tubing to the soda bottle. Right?


I give that a definite, I think so. It seems to make sense that if A is losing pressure, pressure is moved from B to A but since pressure is escaping from A it can't push any acid over to B to make up the loss. Now I have a headache.😋

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## jrill

Watercrayfish said:


> You don't even need a pressure gauge to make it work. If you can control the CO2 flow and maintain a high pressure in the bottles it will work for days without any squeezing.


True, you don't need a gauge. And it's supposed to work without having to squeeze it again or is that what your saying?

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## Watercrayfish

jrill said:


> True, you don't need a gauge. And it's supposed to work without having to squeeze it again or is that what your saying?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


For me it goes for 5+ days without any squeezing. I check the pressure by slightly pressing the bottle before it goes down and give a boost if needed, so cant give a correct number.


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## jrill

Watercrayfish said:


> For me it goes for 5+ days without any squeezing. I check the pressure by slightly pressing the bottle before it goes down and give a boost if needed, so cant give a correct number.


That's all? I'm at over a month and a half right now.

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## Watercrayfish

jrill said:


> That's all? I'm at over a month and a half right now.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Forgot to mention I use the 500ml bottle, so the citric acid quantity is less 100gm+300ml. It gets empty by 28-30 days.


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## Hoppy

jrill said:


> I give that a definite, I think so. It seems to make sense that if A is losing pressure, pressure is moved from B to A but since pressure is escaping from A it can't push any acid over to B to make up the loss. Now I have a headache.😋
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


That loud sound you heard was my head hitting the keyboard! Yes, I forgot that pressure has to get from the soda bottle back to the acid bottle so pressure from the acid bottle can drive acid to the soda bottle. And, both the pressure and the acid use the same tube for transit. Yeast/sugar is looking better every day to me.
:surprise:


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## kinsa

Watercrayfish said:


> For me it goes for 5+ days without any squeezing. I check the pressure by slightly pressing the bottle before it goes down and give a boost if needed, so cant give a correct number.


The only reason why you'll need an additional boost is that your CO2 diffuser is getting blocked or there's a slight leakage in the system.

I don't trust the pressure gauge as the resolution is too low. What I normally do is fully open the needle valve and adjust the bottle pressure to provide the maximum bubble rate and then slowly close the valve to the desired flow rate. This way the system is pressurized to the minimum working pressure. Higher pressures would tend to consume the acid mixture quickly. 

BTW, I'm running 1 bubble/4 sec/12 hours for close to 2 months now and my acid level hasn't reached the 3/4th mark yet ;-) I haven't done any pressure adjustments except for slight flow rate tweaks. I've used a ceramic diffuser before and the mixture won't last for a month; I now feed the CO2 output directly to the input of my filter.


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## kinsa

I forgot to add that I've diluted the acid mixture a bit. I'm using 700 ml water instead of 600 ml for a 200 gram citric acid.

At the minimum working pressure, whenever the acid flows to the carbonate bottle, the resulting CO2 is just enough to drive back the acid to the bottle without creating additional bubbles. The pressure on the acid bottle never builds up over time.

I think this is what we should attain to get the best out of this setup. *BUT* you have to be 100% sure that your setup has no leak for this to work properly.


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## Watercrayfish

kinsa said:


> The only reason why you'll need an additional boost is that your CO2 diffuser is getting blocked or there's a slight leakage in the system.


Yes you are right, and the leak on the needle valve (I use a metal air line regulator) not much of a leak though.


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## jrill

Hoppy said:


> Yeast/sugar is looking better every day to me.
> :surprise:


No, Banish the thought. You've come to far to turn back now. 


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## Morgosverlo

Nestle_ said:


> can you give us details on your mixture measurements, and such? I'm kind of interested in trying this as I liked diy yeast co2 minus the mess, smell, and unreliablility.
> 
> does the co2 going right into the intake of the eheim cause any issues with the pump? I've heard this has happened with others and really kills the pump.
> Thanks!


I have been out of the planted game for a bit but I remember hearing that injecting in the intake of you canister filter will kill the benaficial bacteria in the filter media. When I did the DIY Co2 I used 2-3 liter coke bottles connecting to a T to have single out 1/4" out hose connected to a homemade bubble counter then ran the tube to a homemade reactor. The reactor was taking the end cap off my Ehiem 2217 outflow bar and attaching a short hose to it and attaching that to a gravel siphon/cleaner and drilled a hole about 2-3" from top of plastic siphon section(appro.1-1/2"dia.x 6"L) and inserted the Co2 tube and the outflow of water would churn the Co2 and very tiny dissolved micro bubbles would exit the bottom. The tube would have a nice Co2 pocket of gas. It will slow the outflow of the bar nozzle but that didn't bother me. Worked great for about 3 years then started growing coral.


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## Morgosverlo

This is my old set up with the DIY reactor.


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## Morgosverlo

Another showing progress.


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## Hoppy

I just spent an hour with my citric acid CO2 system sitting on the dining room table. I got the pressure up to 10 psi and soaked every single potential leak point with bubble solution - no sign of a leak anywhere. So, I adjusted the CO2 production, with the needle valve so it produced about 2 bubbles per second. At that bubble rate the system would squirt some acid in the soda bottle about once a minute. The sequence was:
First: there was a slow movement of CO2 bubbles, with water separators about 1/4 inches long between bubbles, towards the acid bottle.
Second: the bubbles would stop moving.
Third: the bubbles would reverse direction and flow towards the soda bottle, finally producing a squirt of acid from the tee fitting inside the soda bottle.
Fourth: the flow stops, and the acid column in the tube would slowly withdraw towards the acid bottle, becoming a bubble flow, like described above.
Fifth: the process would repeat.

It looks great! But, after a few cycles, I noticed that the pressure had dropped by 1-2 psi. So, what is happening is that each cycle ends up with a slightly lower bottle pressure, and eventually that pressure is virtually zero. It looks like a demonstration of why a perpetual motion machine doesn't work.

Who has an explanation for this?

ADD: Am I the only one not using one of the Ebay systems, with the flat bar that connects the two bottles? With that, there is no high loop of tubing above the two bottles, just a relatively level straight shot of tubing across from one bottle to the other. I ask, because the acid flow has to climb up the tubing loop in mine, before flowing in one squirt down into the soda bottle. If that were lower, flatter, it might even out the acid flow, reducing the energy used to push the acid up the hill. I'm getting a bit far fetched here, but I'm also stumped.


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## jrill

My first thought. I have run as high as 2bps and never saw that much acid move. I am re reading your post and thinking.....

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## Hoppy

The amount of acid that squirts per cycle is a fat drop, or perhaps a half ml. And, it is delivered about 90% as that squirt, with a slight dribble before or after. This looks analogous to a pendulum, as it gradually slows down.


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## Hoppy

UPDATE: I reinstalled this on my tank, pushed the pressure up to 10 psi, and set the bubble rate much higher, a steady stream of bubbles. Now it is holding steady at 10 psi. Perhaps it takes that much to be stable with the solutions I am using? Let's see what it is doing tomorrow morning.


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## jrill

I had not thought alot about what effect the mixture might have. I am tempted to try your formula to see if I get a similar result. Are you still using the formula you listed in the drawing?

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## kinsa

Hoppy said:


> First: there was a slow movement of CO2 bubbles, with *water separators about 1/4 inches long* between bubbles, towards the acid bottle.


Did you block the other end of the tee fitting? There should only be one or two solid column of acid in the tube going back to the bottle. The acid flowing to the soda bottle should not contain any bubbles at all.

I think 10 psi (0.7 kgf) is a bit on the low side. The green range on my gauge is between 1-3 kgf.

BTW, how big is your acid bottle? The initial pressure inside the acid bottle should be enough to drive out all the acid solution if you happen to open the outlet pipe to the atmosphere. The ratio of gas and liquid in the acid bottle is crucial as it is the gas that gets compressed and not the liquid.

Bump:


Watercrayfish said:


> Yes you are right, and the leak on the needle valve (I use a metal air line regulator) not much of a leak though.


A leak on the soda side will only increase the rate of acid consumption. 

A leak on the acid side will decrease the rate of acid consumption, hence CO2 production will also drop.


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## fishkeeper01

I have another question, for the hose that leads into the baking soda bottle, should that hose be short enough where it doesn't sit in the baking soda solution?


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## Hoppy

jrill said:


> I had not thought alot about what effect the mixture might have. I am tempted to try your formula to see if I get a similar result. Are you still using the formula you listed in the drawing?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I'm using the solutions shown here:









I don't think the exact solutions are critical. The stronger the acid the higher the possible bubble rate, the stronger the soda solution, the longer it will produce CO2. (I think that's how it works.)

After this ran for about 4 hours, the bottle pressure had dropped from 10 psi to about 7 psi, and that slowed the bubble rate a bit. I opened the needle valve to get back to the approximate bubble rate I had, and a half hour later, after the pressure had climbed to almost 10 psi, I shut the needle valve to shut it down for the night. Another hour or so later, it is now above 10 psi a little bit.

My tube into the soda bottle, with the end about a half inch or less from the bottom of the bottle, under water.

The tee fitting is wide open on the side arm, into the upper part of the bottle. It seems to be there to stop any reverse siphon of soda water back to the acid bottle. But, the acid flow into the soda water bottle comes primarily from that side arm. When the bubble rate was at its maximum, a steady stream of bubbbles, the between the acid and soda bottles was always full of liquid, no visible gas bubbles. I don't know how pressure could get back to the acid bottle to keep it up to pressure. My two bottles are 2 liter bottles.

I'm leaning towards thinking that the acid bottle pressure should be more like 15 psi than 10 psi, but the bubble rate has a minimum value where the system will be stable.

EDIT: I just noticed that my tee side leg points down, and the diagram shows it pointing up. What does that do to cause problems?


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## jrill

fishkeeper01 said:


> I have another question, for the hose that leads into the baking soda bottle, should that hose be short enough where it doesn't sit in the baking soda solution?


No, it goes all the way to the bottom.

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## Clinton Parsons

I still think it's worth the investment to just get pressurized, but this is a neat science project and I wanted to say I am very impressed at your ingenuity. This is the fanciest DIY co2 project I have ever seen. Good job!


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## kinsa

The tee serves as a one-way valve, it prevents the soda solution to go to the acid bottle. You can actually remove the tee and the long section of the tubing and the system will still work.

The length of the tube after the tee is not important, the main purpose is to make sure that the acid goes directly to the soda solution and not get stuck on the side of the bottle. I've removed mine and it doesn't make any difference.

How much does a 250 ml citric acid weigh? Your acid solution is weaker compared to the "normal" mixture of 200 gm acid/600 ml water. This would explain why your system is a bit slow or unable to maintain the initial 10 psi pressure - assuming that your system is leak free. 

Note that for a 1 bps output rate, a leak of 0.1 bps is significant and is not easily detectable by soap solutions. That's why observing the movement of the acid level on the tubing between the bottles overnight is the best way to determine any small leaks. This is especially true for the non-flat bar setups as there are more connection points that could possibly leak (3 per bottle compared to 1 per bottle).

Here's a simple thought experiment: assume that the acid bottle is half-filled with acid and pressurized to 1 atm (14.7 psig), the baking soda bottle is empty and is also pressurized to 1 atm, the needle valve is set to regulate at 1 bps and the output is exposed to atmosphere. We assume that the needle valve is a regulator and not a flow restrictor, i.e no matter what the pressure differential is between the input and output ports the output flow will remain constant.

As soon as the needle valve is opened to 1 bps setting, the acid solution will start flowing to the soda bottle because there will be a slight pressure difference between the two bottles. The rate at which the acid will flow will be lower than 1 drop/s (assuming 1 bubble is equal to 1 drop) due to the compressible nature of gases.

Closing the valve will also cause the acid to stop transferring to the soda bottle. This is because the pressure between the two bottles will equalize.

Once the valve is opened, the acid flow towards the soda bottle will continue until it is exhausted. 

Still clear so far? 

Now lets assume we have a leak on the acid bottle side, let's say 0.01 bps or 1 drop per 100s. The acid will flow once we open the needle valve but over time the rate will slow down until it stops completely. The time it takes for the flow to stop will depend on the rate of the leak.

If the leak is on the soda side, the flow will still continue until the acid is exhausted. This time the flow rate will be quicker. Note the acid flow will still be there even if the needle valve is fully closed.

So the only way for the system to stop generating bubbles is (1) there's a leak on the acid side and (2) the minimum pressure required to produce bubbles at the output side (after the needle valve) is higher than the pressure on the acid bottle. Do note that the pressure of a gas is inversely proportional to the volume that it occupies (if the volume of the gas in the acid bottle has doubled in size, the pressure it exerts is reduced by half).

Now lets make this thing interesting by adding baking soda to the soda bottle.

Lets assume that 1 bubble of gas is equivalent to 1 drop acid solution and 1 drop of acid will react with 1 drop of soda to produce 4 bubbles of CO2 for 4 secs (1 bps of gas for 4 secs).

So for a drop of the acid solution, 5 bubbles of CO2 comes out at the valve within 5 secs.

Decreasing the concentrations of either the soda or acid solutions will reduce the rate of CO2 production. This reduction of CO2 production will not cause the flow of acid to stop over time (see the first case above).

Increasing the concentrations will increase the rate of CO2 production to a certain point that the pressure on the soda bottle will be higher than that of the acid bottle. At this stage, gas will flow back to the acid bottle to equalize the pressure differential. This equalization is not instantaneous as the solution has to flow back through the tubing. The length of this tube adds to how big the pressure fluctuation is.

Higher concentrations will tend to create higher internal pressures but it will never cause the pressure to continuously buildup.

The effects of leakage for either bottles will still be the same as in the previous setup.

Note that the above explanation assumes that the needle valve is a regulator. In reality it is just a flow restrictor that depends on the pressure difference between the input and output ports. This is the reason why we sometimes need to adjust it whenever the pressure inside the system increases or decreases over time.

Sorry for the long post, I hope my explanation is clear.

Please don't go back to the yeast setup, fix the leaks and you'll be ok!


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## Hoppy

kinsa said:


> Sorry for the long post, I hope my explanation is clear.
> 
> Please don't go back to the yeast setup, fix the leaks and you'll be ok!


Your explanation is clear, but I think it undervalues the effect the CO2 production has on the process. Adding a drop of acid in the soda bottle causes the solution to start producing CO2, but that production takes many seconds, even a minute or more, to play out. During that time, if the needle valve is closed, the CO2 builds up pressure in the soda bottle, which forces CO2 to go back up the acid supply tube to the acid bottle to equalize the pressure again. As long as the CO2 is still being generated that CO2 flow back to the acid bottle continues. Opening the needle valve releases some CO2 from the soda bottle, reducing the pressure, but the CO2 production is still continuing, so the pressure may not reduce enough or long enough to again allow acid to flow into the soda bottle. So, there is a slow motion tug of war between the produced CO2 and the acid trying to flow into the soda bottle. I think this makes the process much more complicated than it seems it would be.

After I get a squirt of acid into the soda bottle it takes minutes for the resulting club soda-like solution to stop bubbling - producing CO2. This is making me wonder if the acid solution strength isn't more important than I have assumed.

I haven't restarted my CO2 system yet this morning. When I do I will see if there is something else interesting to report.

EDIT: When I checked the system this morning it had 5 psi in it, down from 10 psi last night. There was just a little baking soda left in the soda bottle. I shook it, squeezed some acid into the soda bottle, and opened the needle valve to a high bubble rate. After about an hour it was producing no CO2, and when I checked the soda bottle again, there was no more soda in it. So, my 100 ml of baking soda lasted 6 days. About half or more of the acid is still there. When I restart this I will use 200 ml of soda, and hope that stretches out the production for 10 days or more. It looks to me like the soda water is saturated with soda, and as it gets "used" up more dissolves, and when there is no more left to dissolve there is only an hour or less of CO2 production left. This, at a 5 or more bbs production rate. Perhaps if I diluted the acid more, I could get a longer production at a stable 1-2 bbs rate.


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## kinsa

Hoppy said:


> ...
> 
> EDIT: When I checked the system this morning it had 5 psi in it, down from 10 psi last night. There was just a little baking soda left in the soda bottle. I shook it, squeezed some acid into the soda bottle, and opened the needle valve to a high bubble rate. After about an hour it was producing no CO2, and when I checked the soda bottle again, there was no more soda in it. So, my 100 ml of baking soda lasted 6 days. About half or more of the acid is still there. When I restart this I will use 200 ml of soda, and hope that stretches out the production for 10 days or more. It looks to me like the soda water is saturated with soda, and as it gets "used" up more dissolves, and when there is no more left to dissolve there is only an hour or less of CO2 production left. This, at a 5 or more bbs production rate. Perhaps if I diluted the acid more, I could get a longer production at a stable 1-2 bbs rate.


The 5 psi drop in your acid bottle is not supposed to happen if there are no leaks in the system. Especially if the valve is closed.

According to this guy, the amount of soda that you're using is half of what it is supposed to be. Please use a scale if you happen to have one.

I'm running my setup at 1 bubble every 4 secs and according to the manufacturer it is supposed to last close to 80 days. It is now at 51 days and my acid level hasn't dropped to 3/4ths yet.

So 16 days @ 1 bps should not be a problem.


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## Hoppy

I restarted my CO2 system this afternoon, after 2 days off due to life interfering. Again, I just don't have the hand strength to build up a 15 psi pressure in the bottles. Five psi was my limit today. It is now running about 2 bbs and is relatively stable. When I refilled the bottles, I added another 600 ml of acid solution to the approximately 200 ml still there. And, I used double the soda to about 200 ml in about 200 ml of water. I can't see any difference in how it is working.

The reason I don't weigh the powders is that I don't see any reason to do so. The density of citric acid powder and baking soda are pretty well known, and there is no technical reason I can see for precision in measuring them. Plus, my gram scale is stashed somewhere where I haven't found it!


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## jrill

Hoppy said:


> I restarted my CO2 system this afternoon, after 2 days off due to life interfering. Again, I just don't have the hand strength to build up a 15 psi pressure in the bottles. Five psi was my limit today. It is now running about 2 bbs and is relatively stable. When I refilled the bottles, I added another 600 ml of acid solution to the approximately 200 ml still there. And, I used double the soda to about 200 ml in about 200 ml of water. I can't see any difference in how it is working.
> 
> The reason I don't weigh the powders is that I don't see any reason to do so. The density of citric acid powder and baking soda are pretty well known, and there is no technical reason I can see for precision in measuring them. Plus, my gram scale is stashed somewhere where I haven't found it!


Keep us posted. I plan to use your formula tomorrow to see if results vary. Was going to do that last Friday, but like you stuff got in the way.

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## jrill

Hoppy, started mine up about an hour ago using your formula at 1bps. So far there has not been a move of citric acid since start up. 

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## Hoppy

jrill said:


> Hoppy, started mine up about an hour ago using your formula at 1bps. So far there has not been a move of citric acid since start up.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Is this different from what you normally see? Have you, by any chance, measured the volume of a specific weight of citric acid powder? I used the published density to figure out the volume I used.


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## jrill

Hoppy said:


> Is this different from what you normally see? Have you, by any chance, measured the volume of a specific weight of citric acid powder? I used the published density to figure out the volume I used.


So far it's normal from what I usually see. I have not measured weight to volume. I can't today but I will tomorrow.

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## jrill

Ran normally till the solenoid shut it down at 8. 

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## Hoppy

If I had a leak in the tube going from the acid bottle to the soda bottle, located inside the soda bottle, would that affect the operation? I ask because my bottle caps are the Ebay ones, where the tube doesn't go through the cap. Instead it attaches with a fitting that crimps itself onto the tube when you screw down the fitting nut, on on the inside the tube just slips over a stub of plastic. I can't see a problem there, but I may be overlooking something.

My bottle pressure still slowly drops during the day. If a leak at the cap causes the system to be unable to easily move acid to the soda bottle, that could be a problem.


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## jrill

Hoppy said:


> Is this different from what you normally see? Have you, by any chance, measured the volume of a specific weight of citric acid powder? I used the published density to figure out the volume I used.


Good morning. Measured volume.
Citric acid volume of 250ml weighed 249g.
Baking soda 100ml is 133g.

My system held pressure over night and should start just fine later. I would double the baking soda if going by volume to 200ml or so. The amount of baking soda present from the 100ml is about what I would see after a few weeks of operation.
Not sure what to make of a possible leak inside your soda bottle, but it seems certain that your system is doing something different than mine.

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## Hoppy

Thank you for the density data! The citric acid is far less dense than the published data on it. It should be about 1.6+ gram per ml, vs your 1.0 gram per ml. So, I may have far less citric acid than I probably should have. Baking soda should be 2.16 gram per ml, and you got about 1.33 gram per ml. But, I'm suspicious: both of your measures were about .62 of what they should be. Perhaps the published numbers are based on firmly packed volumes?


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## kinsa

If there are bubbles inside the hose going to the soda bottle then you have a leak on the hose inside the acid bottle.


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## jrill

kinsa said:


> If there are bubbles inside the hose going to the soda bottle then you have a leak on the hose inside the acid bottle.


I'm not sure that's true. I have the solid bar set up instead of the hose but when the acid pumps over its not a solid stream. 

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## Hoppy

That hose into/out of the acid bottle alternates between allowing pressurized CO2 into the acid bottle and acid back into the soda bottle. I suspect it will always have a few bubbles in it. The only time it wouldn't have CO2 going to the acid bottle is if it is stable, and holds its pressure, but as acid leaves the acid bottle the pressure in that bottle has to drop, so to keep the system working CO2 has to get back to replace the lost acid. I still can't get a mental picture of just how this thing goes about doing its job. It seems like it needs a separate CO2 tube to the acid bottle, and an acid tube to the soda bottle, with check valves so both can only allow passage in one direction.


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## kinsa

Hoppy said:


> ...
> I still can't get a mental picture of just how this thing goes about doing its job. It seems like it needs a separate CO2 tube to the acid bottle, and an acid tube to the soda bottle, with check valves so both can only allow passage in one direction.


What you've described is the complex version: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/188249-co2-generator-yuri-tpv.html The tee fitting is the simplification of the two check valves.

Once the pressures have reached equilibrium, the acid flow goes only one way. It only backs out briefly after it mixes with the soda solution but no new bubbles are introduced back into the acid bottle. The maximum pressure that the newly generated CO2 creates is less than or equal to the pressure inside the acid bottle when the system is at equilibrium.


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## jrill

kinsa said:


> What you've described is the complex version: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/188249-co2-generator-yuri-tpv.html The tee fitting is the simplification of the two check valves.
> 
> Once the pressures have reached equilibrium, the acid flow goes only one way. It only backs out briefly after it mixes with the soda solution but no new bubbles are introduced back into the acid bottle. .


I respectfully disagree. After using the System for over a year I see bubbles going over to the acid bottle many times over the exchange of pressure.


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## Hoppy

*JACKPOT!* That answers all of my questions, and offers some ways to make the system be more stable - I think. Best of all, it is a treasure trove of experiments to try, and how can you beat that? This may be Russia's best contribution since Tchaikovsky!


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## kinsa

jrill said:


> I respectfully disagree. After using the System for over a year I see bubbles going over to the acid bottle many times over the exchange of pressure.


Mine doesn't. It's the reason why my setup hasn't breached the 3/4 level after almost 2 months now (54 days to be exact). At this rate, 6 months looks doable


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## jrill

kinsa said:


> Mine doesn't. It's the reason why my setup hasn't breached the 3/4 level after almost 2 months now (54 days to be exact). At this rate, 6 months looks doable


I don't think so. Yours runs so long because your running one bubble every four seconds. Pressure has to go back to the acid bottle to equalize the pressure. If that exchange stops the system stops.

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## kinsa

The gas will not flow back to the acid bottle if the pressure inside the acid bottle is higher than that of the soda bottle.

To test, close the needle valve and press the acid bottle to generate more CO2 and let the pressure build up inside the acid bottle. There will come a point that the generated pressure of the reaction will not add more bubbles to the acid side; this will be the equilibrium point. From that point on the pressure on the acid bottle will never rise.

Use a weaker acid concentration and you'll see this effect clearly.

The acid flow will only stop if the pressure inside the acid bottle is less than that of the soda side or you've run out of acid.


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## Hoppy

I think I will modify my system to be somewhat like the diagram here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/188249-co2-generator-yuri-tpv.html#post1990730 I like the check valves, but not all of the other features. Here is what I plan to try:









I like the anti-siphon tee, so I want to keep it. I like the check valves, and have some that will work well. This should keep the acid line always full of acid, ready to drip in as soon as the pressure drops in the soda botttle. That should keep this running. The check valves only take .5 psi to open them, so thatt shouldn't stall the system. And, I see no need for a relief valve because it is still self regulating. Do you see any problems this will run into?

EDIT: I modified my setup this morning per the diagram, and it is now working just fine, so far. It looks like this is a big improvement, by isolating the CO2 transfer tube from the acid transfer tube.


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## jrill

kinsa said:


> The gas will not flow back to the acid bottle if the pressure inside the acid bottle is higher than that of the soda bottle.
> 
> To test, close the needle valve and press the acid bottle to generate more CO2 and let the pressure build up inside the acid bottle. There will come a point that the generated pressure of the reaction will not add more bubbles to the acid side; this will be the equilibrium point. From that point on the pressure on the acid bottle will never rise..


You are correct that gas will not flow to acid bottle if the pressure is higher there. But during the life of the mix pressure will indeed flow from the soda bottle to the acid side as the system needs to equalize the pressure. At start up we see that quite clearly. You artificially create pressure in the acid by squeezing the bottle A which moves the acid. As pressure builds in the soda bottle co2 is pumped into the acid side to equalize. Now open the valve on the baking soda side and bleed off some pressure. Close the valve and Acid moves to soda creating more pressure in the soda side. The System needs to equalize and we can see co2 bubbles on the acid side until the pressure is again equal on both sides. This process is then repeated over and over. If pressure is never sent back to the acid side from the soda the pressure to pump acid will continue to fall until the pressure is gone preventing acid to flow. The acid bottle can't generate pressure. It has to get it from the soda as the bottles equalize. If all were doing is letting pressure leave bottle B then the system would eventually stop before all the acid can be used up. 
Am I missing something? 


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## Hoppy

This type of CO2 generator looks like it has to involve a slowly dropping pressure. As you move acid, water, from the acid bottle to the soda bottle, the total volume of liquids in the pair of bottles remains constant. If you allow some of the CO2 to leave the bottles, going to the aquarium, their is less mass of CO2 in the combined volume of the two bottles, in the "air space". So, the pressure drops. More of the acid then moves to the soda bottle, leaving the combined volume of gas the same. But, more mass of CO2 leaves the bottles going to the aquarium. So, the pressure drops again, causing still more acid to move from the acid bottle to the soda bottle. It looks like the pressure would always return back to the same as it started at, but doesn't the second law of thermodynamics mean that the entropy of the system has to increase, thus reducing the pressure? Otherwise, isn't it a "perpetual motion" device? Or, a 100% efficient device, both being impossible?

You can deduce from this that my bottle pressure is dropping ever so slowly. My next try will be with a stronger acid solution - more oomph per drop of acid. My acid solution is very low now.


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## jrill

Hoppy said:


> This type of CO2 generator looks like it has to involve a slowly dropping pressure. As you move acid, water, from the acid bottle to the soda bottle, the total volume of liquids in the pair of bottles remains constant. If you allow some of the CO2 to leave the bottles, going to the aquarium, their is less mass of CO2 in the combined volume of the two bottles, in the "air space". So, the pressure drops. More of the acid then moves to the soda bottle, leaving the combined volume of gas the same. But, more mass of CO2 leaves the bottles going to the aquarium. So, the pressure drops again, causing still more acid to move from the acid bottle to the soda bottle. It looks like the pressure would always return back to the same as it started at, but doesn't the second law of thermodynamics mean that the entropy of the system has to increase, thus reducing the pressure? Otherwise, isn't it a "perpetual motion" device? Or, a 100% efficient device, both being impossible?
> 
> You can deduce from this that my bottle pressure is dropping ever so slowly. My next try will be with a stronger acid solution - more oomph per drop of acid. My acid solution is very low now.


I don't have anything to add right now that would help. Just wanted to say I am thoroughly enjoying reading these posts and trying to figure it out. Sometimes us retired folks have too much time in our hands. .😎

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## Hoppy

jrill said:


> I don't have anything to add right now that would help. Just wanted to say I am thoroughly enjoying reading these posts and trying to figure it out. Sometimes us retired folks have too much time in our hands. .😎
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Fortunately some of us also find non-destructive ways to fill up that time>

And, a planted tank can certainly fill lots and lots of time.

But seriously: Assume your acid was very strong. There is a lower limit on how small a drop can make it to the soda bottle. So, if the super strong acid can cause the generation of one liter of CO2 at atmospheric pressure, which would be 1/2 liter at 2 atmospheres, and you only allow 1/10 of a liter to escape to the aquarium, the pressure would go up from the left over gas. The next couple of blips of CO2 to the aquarium drops the pressure slightly and another drop of acid falls into the soda bottle. This causes the surplus of gas to raise the pressure still more, etc. until the bottle explodes. So, doesn't it follow that if the acid were much weaker, and you allowed much more to go to the aquarium, the pressure would ratchet down?

If that logic isn't fatally flawed, I need stronger acid, but then need to watch it carefully to avoid the pressure going up with time, and I would need to increase the bubble rate just enough to stop the increase, but not cause a decrease. I may need a team of volunteers to share the duty!:surprise:


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## kinsa

jrill said:


> ...
> If all were doing is letting pressure leave bottle B then the system would eventually stop before all the acid can be used up.
> Am I missing something?


Do note that the amount of acid that gets transferred is no more than ~1 ml at a time and the pressure drop in the acid bottle from this transfer is very small.

The rate of CO2 production also decreases as the soda solution is diluted over time (this is the reason why new bubbles form when you stir up the soda bottle that is almost used up).


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## jrill

kinsa said:


> Do note that the amount of acid that gets transferred is no more than ~1 ml at a time and the pressure drop in the acid bottle from this transfer is very small.
> 
> The rate of CO2 production also decreases as the soda solution is diluted over time (this is the reason why new bubbles form when you stir up the soda bottle that is almost used up).


I have also noticed that as the mix ages the amount of acid transfered each time increases.

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## Hoppy

kinsa said:


> Do note that the amount of acid that gets transferred is no more than ~1 ml at a time and the pressure drop in the acid bottle from this transfer is very small.
> 
> The rate of CO2 production also decreases as the soda solution is diluted over time (this is the reason why new bubbles form when you stir up the soda bottle that is almost used up).


I think the new bubbles form because the soda water is saturated with CO2, and when you shake it a lot of the CO2 comes out of solution as bubbles, just like when you shake a bottle of carbonated beverage.

With my new setup I can watch the acid drip into the soda bottle. A drop starts to form immediately after one drops off. Then it slowly gets bigger until it drops. These are much smaller than 1 ml drops - perhaps .1 ml.


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## mistergreen

Why would a bottle explode as long as there is a path for co2 to escape ( into the aquarium)?


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## Hoppy

mistergreen said:


> Why would a bottle explode as long as there is a path for co2 to escape ( into the aquarium)?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


We have to use the needle valve to slow the CO2 flow, so the excess CO2 raises the pressure in the bottles. If the solutions were perfectly matched to the bubble rate we want, the pressure and bubble rate would remain constant. Of course as the soda solution becomes more dilute the bubble rate might drop off a bit, but it would essentially be stable. I believe when the acid solution is too strong, the bottle pressure goes up until the increasing bubble rate caused by the higher pressure re-stabilizes it at the higher pressure and bubble rate. And, the reverse if the acid solution is too weak. But, so far I have been wrong on every prediction about how this will work, so my expertise could possibly be questioned. And, I'm still thinking that this cannot be 100% efficient, so over time the pressure will drop.

Yeast/sugar DIY CO2 is so simple, by comparison:frown2:


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## mistergreen

Keep in mind that if there's too much pressure in the soda bottle, it would stop the acid from siphoning in. So I don't think a bottle would explode.

I think the needle valve would control the acid flow rate.

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## Hoppy

One surprise I got from watching this work is the relatively slow reaction of the soda mix with the acid. A drop of acid enters the soda solution, and it fizzes for a minute or so before it stops. So, the feedback from the acid, which should stop the acid flow, is so slow I can see the possibility of the pressure going very high before the system settles down again.

The acid has to mix into the soda solution, then react with the bicarbonate to form CO2, which dissolves into the soda water, which oversaturates the water with CO2, so the CO2 comes out of solution as bubbles, which float to the top of the solution and release the CO2, raising the pressure. That process seems to take a lot longer than I would expect intuitively. Maybe if the system is adjusted to produce just 1 bbs of CO2 it would react in an orderly way, but, at least when you first start it operating, things happen at a very unstable rate. I'm guessing that there is an acid solution concentration which makes things go smoothly, but I have no idea what that concentration is. And, there must be a bottle pressure which makes things go smoothly, but I have no idea what that is, or even how to get it to reach that pressure and not overshoot or stop short. Once the pressure gets in the 5-10 psi range I can't squeeze the bottle hard enough to have any effect on it. So, I have to just squirt a big dose of acid into the soda bottle, to start it, and cross my fingers, hoping that was about the right amount.

Yeast/sugar DIY CO2 is utterly boring by comparison.


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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> Good morning. Measured volume.
> Citric acid volume of 250ml weighed 249g.
> Baking soda 100ml is 133g.
> 
> My system held pressure over night and should start just fine later. I would double the baking soda if going by volume to 200ml or so. The amount of baking soda present from the 100ml is about what I would see after a few weeks of operation.
> Not sure what to make of a possible leak inside your soda bottle, but it seems certain that your system is doing something different than mine.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk



what will using 249g vs 200g do? and the same for the baking soda. whats the 100g instead of 200g going to do? also, do i keep the same for the water? 600 for citric acid solution and 200 for the baking soda solution?


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## Hoppy

mcdanielnc89 said:


> what will using 249g vs 200g do? and the same for the baking soda. whats the 100g instead of 200g going to do? also, do i keep the same for the water? 600 for citric acid solution and 200 for the baking soda solution?


Today I reset the system, with new acid and new soda solution. The first thing I learned is that water won't dissolve much more of the citric acid powder than the 200 grams per 600 ml of water. I used a full 400 ml of the acid powder in 1200 ml of water, and not all of the acid dissolved. That was a surprise.

When I restarted it I shook up the soda water bottle very strongly, alternating with big squirts of acid by squeezing the acid bottle. This with the needle valve closed. The pressure quickly went up to 5 psi, so I squeezed some more acid in, which was difficult. Eventually the pressure went above 15 psi, to maybe 17 psi at most. So, I opened the needle valve to get about 2 bbs of CO2. After a few minutes the pressure had dropped below 15 psi, so I shut off the needle valve again. The pressure stayed at about 15 psi for a half hour or so. Then I adjusted the needle valve to again get about 1-2 bbs, and left it alone. After about 45 minutes the pressure was down to near 10 psi. I reduced the bubble rate to about 1 bbs, and after another 30 minutes the pressure was down near 5 psi. I left it alone for the remaining hour or less of photoperiod.

This all just confuses me! I will restart it tomorrow morning and every morning until I run out of acid - I don't have any more now. It looks like this is going to be an unsatisfactory CO2 method for me.


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## mcdanielnc89

I'm having a hard time getting less than 1BPS consistantly. lol I think I was finally able to get it at .5BPS. We shall see.


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## jrill

From my restart on the October 3rd. I'm still going strong at about 1 bps. Have not touched the needle valve since then. Solenoid letting me run about 8hrs a day.

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## Hoppy

My experiment is over! This morning the pressure was zero. So, as usual, I squeezed some acid into the soda bottle, shook the bottle a bit, and got a huge eruption of CO2, raising the pressure to 20 psi, when a tube blew off one of the check valves. The pressure squirted acid until I grabbed the tube stub and squeezed it shut. I opened the needle valve way open to vent the CO2 into the aquarium where it just bubbled in very big bubbles to the surface - no harm done there. Then I got a pan under the tube stub and all of the acid flowed out into the pan. Maybe a half cup of acid was dumped on the floor. So, I just removed the whole system, disassembled it, mopped and washed up the acid. Now, I'm cooling off, and thinking I just love yeast/sugar systems!

Apparently the soda solution was stratifying, so there was a layer that isolated the acid from the baking soda, and when I briefly shook it, it released a lot of acid into the soda. My conclusion is that this is a system in much need of redesigning, which I don't intend to do. But, if I did, I would look at stirrers that use a magnetic capsule in the liquids, with a spinning magnet under the bottle to make the capsule continually stir the fluids. I don't know why it works as is for some people.


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## mistergreen

interesting. How about making something like baking power.
Mix your citric acid power with baking soda, mix cornstarch to stabilize (optional maybe)

Homemade Baking Powder Recipe Recipe - Allrecipes.com

Hopefully the acid powder is equally distributed with the soda.
Put the mixture in one bottle and plain water in the other. Water will dissolve the acid thus react to baking soda.


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## jrill

It seems like the folks that have the most problems are using the System with the bottle caps and hoses. When I chose mine I went with the bar model. I feel there is less chance for leakage problems. 

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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> It seems like the folks that have the most problems are using the System with the bottle caps and hoses. When I chose mine I went with the bar model. I feel there is less chance for leakage problems.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I'm using the Bar Model. I cannot get a consistent output. It just keeps slowing down when trying to do less than 1BPS


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## jrill

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I'm using the Bar Model. I cannot get a consistent output. It just keeps slowing down when trying to do less than 1BPS


I must admit that on mine I upgraded to a better needle valve. I found the one on the bar to be too hard to adjust. Maybe that's the trouble your having. Especially if your pressure is stable.

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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> I must admit that on mine I upgraded to a better needle valve. I found the one on the bar to be too hard to adjust. Maybe that's the trouble your having.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Perhaps. What do you mean by hard to adjust in what sense

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## jrill

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Perhaps. What do you mean by hard to adjust in what sense
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


That it's just hard to turn to make small adjustments.

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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> That it's just hard to turn to make small adjustments.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I can see that. Like it's easy to turn but you're doing it so blindly that it's either too much not even and never just right

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## Hoppy

I replaced my citric acid CO2 generation system with a yeast/sugar system. Since doing so, with the same 2 litre bottles I used with the citric acid system, I have had a steady, consistent roughly 2 bbs production of CO2, with zero attention from me, no adjustments, just boring constant CO2. I'm enjoying the boredom.


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## mcdanielnc89

Sigh.... Just when i think it was getting better.... I just arrived home to see that my DIY solution for CO2 is empty. Ugh. (Citric Acid all in the baking soda solution) and no longer working. I just changed it yesterday afternoon after replacing the needle valve to the one Hilde recommended here. 

All Opinions/ideas appreciated


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## jrill

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Sigh.... Just when i think it was getting better.... I just arrived home to see that my DIY solution for CO2 is empty. Ugh. (Citric Acid all in the baking soda solution) and no longer working. I just changed it yesterday afternoon after replacing the needle valve to the one Hilde recommended here.
> 
> All Opinions/ideas appreciated


Most likely you have a leak somewhere. Check around the bottles. I use Teflon tape on the threads. And everywhere else.

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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> Most likely you have a leak somewhere.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


By just changing the needle valve??? 

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## jrill

Hoppy said:


> I replaced my citric acid CO2 generation system with a yeast/sugar system. Since doing so, with the same 2 litre bottles I used with the citric acid system, I have had a steady, consistent roughly 2 bbs production of CO2, with zero attention from me, no adjustments, just boring constant CO2. I'm enjoying the boredom.


Sorry to see you leave the acid club. I'll never go back. The citric acid/baking soda route seems perfect for me on a low to medium light tank.

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## jrill

mcdanielnc89 said:


> By just changing the needle valve???
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Hard to say. Never used that valve, but in the pictures it doesn't look much different than the one that comes on the bar. But when the system does what yours did, it's a leak.

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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> Hard to say. Never used that valve, but in the pictures it doesn't look much different than the one that comes on the bar. But when the system does what yours did, it's a leak.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


That's very interesting. especially since all i had to do is twist the valve off. 

How would i go about finding out if there's a leak?


----------



## jrill

mcdanielnc89 said:


> That's very interesting. especially since all i had to do is twist the valve off.
> 
> How would i go about finding out if there's a leak?


I use a bottle of soap you buy the kids for blowing bubbles and a foam brush. Whip up a lather and apply that on every fitting and connection. Watch those tiny bubbles very closely and if they increase in number, there's your leak.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## jrill

By the way, I've been there and have experienced the same thing. You can read about it earlier in the thread. It was a leak when the gasket in the bar where the bottle connects failed. Probably my fault when I screwed the bottle in.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> By the way, I've been there and have experienced the same thing. You can read about it earlier in the thread. It was a leak when the gasket in the bar where the bottle connects failed. Probably my fault when I screwed the bottle in.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


That may be what happened. The little foam ring thing came out. so maybe that's the problem.


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## ttatummm

*Solenoid Recommendations*

I've been using the bar type setup for 5 weeks now. I'm using the standard mixture called for in the instructions. I only got 2 weeks out of my first batch, but I think that was because shook things up a bit too much, causing the pressure to go too high, and wasting some of my citric acid. At least I know the safety valve works. I've gotten 22 days out of the second batch so far, think I will likely start a third batch today. 

I really happy with this method, it works better than I anticipated. The only thing that I would improve on this is maybe the needle valve, It is a bit fiddly and I have to play with it to dial in the bubble rate I want. I'm running about 2 bubbles a second for 8 hours or so a day. I've been manually turning the CO2 off at night. Now, I would like to get the CO2 and the lights on a timer, so I'm looking for recommendation for a solenoid.

I know folks have mention solenoid that they have tried, but this thread has gotten long enough that it is had to find the info. From what I've read I know that I want a DC unit to avoid over heating, preferably a 12v unit since I have a bunch of 12v power supplies. I would also like to keep the cost down. 

Thanks for any input.


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## mcdanielnc89

Ok, so it appears the ring that sets in the area where the bottle twists into has broken. My mind is drawing a blank on what they are called so 8 can go pick up a replacement piece. Anyone know 

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## jrill

ttatummm said:


> I've been using the bar type setup for 5 weeks now. I'm using the standard mixture called for in the instructions. I only got 2 weeks out of my first batch, but I think that was because shook things up a bit too much, causing the pressure to go too high, and wasting some of my citric acid. At least I know the safety valve works. I've gotten 22 days out of the second batch so far, think I will likely start a third batch today.
> 
> I really happy with this method, it works better than I anticipated. The only thing that I would improve on this is maybe the needle valve, It is a bit fiddly and I have to play with it to dial in the bubble rate I want. I'm running about 2 bubbles a second for 8 hours or so a day. I've been manually turning the CO2 off at night. Now, I would like to get the CO2 and the lights on a timer, so I'm looking for recommendation for a solenoid.
> 
> I know folks have mention solenoid that they have tried, but this thread has gotten long enough that it is had to find the info. From what I've read I know that I want a DC unit to avoid over heating, preferably a 12v unit since I have a bunch of 12v power supplies. I would also like to keep the cost down.
> 
> Thanks for any input.


http://www.diyco2regulator.com/clippard-mouse-solenoid-with-manifold

This is the one I have but when I bought it they had the 12v. This one is 24v I believe.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## jrill

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Ok, so it appears the ring that sets in the area where the bottle twists into has broken. My mind is drawing a blank on what they are called so 8 can go pick up a replacement piece. Anyone know
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Not quite sure which one you need. A picture would help.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## mcdanielnc89

@jrill
What kind of ppm of Co2 should I expect with the diy system?

Thanks, 
Mcdanielnc89
--------------------------------------------------------
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk. 
-----------------------------------------------------------


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## jrill

mcdanielnc89 said:


> @jrill
> What kind of ppm of Co2 should I expect with the diy system?
> 
> Thanks,
> Mcdanielnc89
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk.
> -----------------------------------------------------------


Well, that all depends on many things. The size of your tank, type of diffuser or reactor, bubble rate. Etc. You can get this system to pump alot of co2 but the more you pump the shorter the life of the mix. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> Well, that all depends on many things. The size of your tank, type of diffuser or reactor, bubble rate. Etc. You can get this system to pump alot of co2 but the more you pump the shorter the life of the mix.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Alright. I have this system, replaced the needle valve with this needle valve, I have the 4-in-1 diffuser, a 20 gallon tank, with currently 1 bubble per 2-2.5 seconds.

I mix 200g of citric acid with 600ml of water
I mix 200g of sodium bicarbonare with 200ml of water.


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## Hilde

mcdanielnc89 said:


> currently 1 bubble per 2-2.5 seconds.


That is lower than most run it at.


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## mcdanielnc89

Hilde said:


> That is lower than most run it at.


Well, the problem is this. If I run it at 1bps, previously it tanks my ph. Afraid to do it because it's now in the main tank and 2 to 2.5 its been good. But in the big tank I'm not seeing any ph drops

Thanks, 
Mcdanielnc89
--------------------------------------------------------
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk. 
-----------------------------------------------------------


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## jrill

On a 20 you should be able to go well beyond 30ppm. Just remember the higher you go shortens mix life. At one point I ran 2 bps 8 hours a day and got near a month by trying different mixes. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> On a 20 you should be able to go well beyond 30ppm. Just remember the higher you go shortens mix life. At one point I ran 2 bps 8 hours a day and got near a month by trying different mixes.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


It has ben running 24/7 for a little over 24 hours now, and i'm not getting anything near 30ppm at 1 bubble per 2-2.5 seconds. My other post reply shows my concerns of increasing that though.


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## jrill

mcdanielnc89 said:


> It has ben running 24/7 for a little over 24 hours now, and i'm not getting anything near 30ppm at 1 bubble per 2-2.5 seconds. My other post reply shows my concerns of increasing that though.


At that rate, no, you would not get there.thats not much at all your putting in. If you are at high light and I were you I would start with a full one degree drop in pH to start. Then see how it goes. Also, are you running high. Med, or low light.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> At that rate, no, you would not get there.thats not much at all your putting in. If you are at high light and I were you I would start with a full one degree drop in pH to start. Then see how it goes. Also, are you running high. Med, or low light.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Maybe medium? I'm using the Finnex planted plus 247

Thanks, 
Mcdanielnc89
--------------------------------------------------------
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk. 
-----------------------------------------------------------


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## jrill

If it's a 20 long your probably pushing high med to high. I'd shoot for that one degree drop I mentioned. But of course that assumes your dosing ferts and stocked with a lot of fast growing plants. 

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## mcdanielnc89

jrill said:


> If it's a 20 long your probably pushing high med to high. I'd shoot for that one degree drop I mentioned. But of course that assumes your dosing ferts and stocked with a lot of fast growing plants.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I have a 20 high dosing with thrive from @nilocg 2x weekly. I have jungle vals, hornwkrt, Moneywort, anubias, ludwigia

Thanks, 
Mcdanielnc89
--------------------------------------------------------
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk. 
-----------------------------------------------------------


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## geekdad

I have two of the 'bar' type and it works well for me. Got one on a 30g and another on a 40g breeder. You've got to keep an eye on the needle valve. It's a lot more sensitive when the pressure is too high. Also check the rubber gaskets inside the bar to make sure they're seated properly.


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## jrill

geekdad said:


> I have two of the 'bar' type and it works well for me. Got one on a 30g and another on a 40g breeder. You've got to keep an eye on the needle valve. It's a lot more sensitive when the pressure is too high. Also check the rubber gaskets inside the bar to make sure they're seated properly.


Good advice.

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## kinsa

Check if there's a play on the adjustment screw of the needle valve. Mine has around ~1mm of play.

I've removed the slack by adding a zip tie at the base:


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## Tiamat

I've lurked around this thread for a week before jumping in and getting into my first DIY CO2. I wound up using the non-bar type system using the standard recipe. Was feeding it into a 30g tank with a nano glass diffuser in the tank. I got about 8-9 days out of my first batch at 1 bps. 

I will say that on the second to last day I switched to an inline diffuser connected to my canister's output line and saw a dramatic improvement. I had finer bubbles and was able to reach my desired drop checker color with only about 0.25 bps. My hope is the second batch will last longer than a week given the change in diffusing method.

I will also report that when I first primed my system, I only bothered to squeeze enough acid to get the system self-sustaining at roughly 10 psi. Seemed this was enough pressure to use with my nano diffuser. When I switched over to the inline diffuser (which the manufacturer recommends using at minimum 30 psi), the pressure in my CO2 system did get up to to about 40 psi.

From what I read online, soda in bottles is usually around 40-55 psi, and the bottles usually fail around 150 psi. So I figure I was safe as long as the tubing/connections didn't blow.


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## jrill

Tiamat said:


> I've lurked around this thread for a week before jumping in and getting into my first DIY CO2. I wound up using the non-bar type system using the standard recipe. Was feeding it into a 30g tank with a nano glass diffuser in the tank. I got about 8-9 days out of my first batch at 1 bps.
> 
> I will say that on the second to last day I switched to an inline diffuser connected to my canister's output line and saw a dramatic improvement. I had finer bubbles and was able to reach my desired drop checker color with only about 0.25 bps. My hope is the second batch will last longer than a week given the change in diffusing method.
> 
> I will also report that when I first primed my system, I only bothered to squeeze enough acid to get the system self-sustaining at roughly 10 psi. Seemed this was enough pressure to use with my nano diffuser. When I switched over to the inline diffuser (which the manufacturer recommends using at minimum 30 psi), the pressure in my CO2 system did get up to to about 40 psi.
> 
> From what I read online, soda in bottles is usually around 40-55 psi, and the bottles usually fail around 150 psi. So I figure I was safe as long as the tubing/connections didn't blow.


Sounds like your off to a good Start. Keeps us posted on how it goes.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Tiamat

By the way for those who bought the non-bar version (maybe this is true for the bar type as well). You'll notice a ball at the end of the tubing that goes into bottle A. This ball has a hole in the end for solution to enter in/out of. This ball is magnetic. The purpose is so that you can use an external magnet to attract the ball and lift it up and out of the citric acid solution, thereby stopping the reaction. This is in case you need to release the pressure and open the bottles up.

It can also prevent run-away reactions. There is an addendum included in the package that says you can position the ball about 1.5 cm below the surface of the CA solution. Supposedly this can help to stabilize the pressure, but I haven't bothered to be so micro-managing about it.


UPDATE: 11/2/2016

After running out of CO2, all the liquid wound up in bottle B with the baking soda (as expected). I was curious to see if there was any "juice" left in the waste liquid. Remember that I'm using the standard formulas. I worked out the molar ratios based on the anticipated chemistry. This was also previously posted in this thread by ecotanker and confirmed by ernest:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...tric-acid-baking-soda-co2-29.html#post8007866
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...tric-acid-baking-soda-co2-39.html#post8759257

So what I did was add some fresh baking soda to the waste solution. Sure enough it started to fizz and produce more CO2. I think for my next batch I'm going to try 192 grams of citric acid (in 600 ml) and 252 grams baking soda (in 200 ml).


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## jrill

Tiamat said:


> By the way for those who bought the non-bar version (maybe this is true for the bar type as well). You'll notice a ball at the end of the tubing that goes into bottle A. This ball has a hole in the end for solution to enter in/out of. This ball is magnetic. The purpose is so that you can use an external magnet to attract the ball and lift it up and out of the citric acid solution, thereby stopping the reaction. This is in case you need to release the pressure and open the bottles up.
> 
> It can also prevent run-away reactions. There is an addendum included in the package that says you can position the ball about 1.5 cm below the surface of the CA solution. Supposedly this can help to stabilize the pressure, but I haven't bothered to be so micro-managing about it.
> 
> 
> UPDATE: 11/2/2016
> 
> After running out of CO2, all the liquid wound up in bottle B with the baking soda (as expected). I was curious to see if there was any "juice" left in the waste liquid. Remember that I'm using the standard formulas. I worked out the molar ratios based on the anticipated chemistry. This was also previously posted in this thread by ecotanker and confirmed by ernest:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...tric-acid-baking-soda-co2-29.html#post8007866
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...tric-acid-baking-soda-co2-39.html#post8759257
> 
> So what I did was add some fresh baking soda to the waste solution. Sure enough it started to fizz and produce more CO2. I think for my next batch I'm going to try 192 grams of citric acid (in 600 ml) and 252 grams baking soda (in 200 ml).


I checked the ball thing in my bar style. Does not appear to have a magnet not any metal inside.
If you play with the formula you can extend the flow time. If you spend the time to read earlier posts here you can find the results I attained. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## hassan.nabeel

*DIY CO2 - Almost killed my fish*

HELP needed. I have a 10G low tech tank with a 13 watt philips LED bulb 6500k.










I started DIY CO2 few days back using following equipment:

https://www.amazon.com/DIY-CO2-Aquarium-Plant-System/dp/B008CUZJF6

https://www.amazon.com/Fluval-Ceramic-88g-CO2-Diffuser-Ounces/dp/B004GCO35G

No bubble counter.

Recipe was followed from instructions. 200G baking soda in 300ml and 200g citric acid in 600ml.

Pressure built good around 1.5kg.

Day1: I was off from office, I started CO2 at 8AM and adjusted it to just very fine bubbles and low rate (no bubble counter yet.). I stayed home and watched everything. Turned off CO2 at around 6PM with lights out at 8PM. Everything seemed fine and fish was ok. I have a small discuss fish and 2 mollies in it.

Day2: I started CO2 and light at 7:30AM. Adjusted it to just very fine bubbles. When I came back home at 7:00PM. my discuss was up side down gasping for air and both mollies were also at top. I quickly stopped CO2, changed 20% water and created surface movement a lot. Discuss was not responding. Moved it to a separate container with 50% aquarium water and 50% fresh water. After 30 mins, she regained her movement. Its back in aquarium and doing fine.

CO2 is stopped now. Plant growth was good in these 2 days, New growth was more reddish and about 1 CM in just 2 days. But I can't afford to loose fish for this. Is 12 hours CO2 too much?


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## jrill

You need to decide how much co2 you want then pick a way to measure. I like a bubble counter so I can adjust flow based on bubble count. I use pH to decide how much co2 I put in. Since I run a low light tank 1 bubble a second gives me about a .75 drop in pH. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## natemcnutty

hassan.nabeel said:


> HELP needed. I have a 10G low tech tank with a 13 watt philips LED bulb 6500k.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I started DIY CO2 few days back using following equipment:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/DIY-CO2-Aquarium-Plant-System/dp/B008CUZJF6
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Fluval-Ceramic-88g-CO2-Diffuser-Ounces/dp/B004GCO35G
> 
> No bubble counter.
> 
> Recipe was followed from instructions. 200G baking soda in 300ml and 200g citric acid in 600ml.
> 
> Pressure built good around 1.5kg.
> 
> Day1: I was off from office, I started CO2 at 8AM and adjusted it to just very fine bubbles and low rate (no bubble counter yet.). I stayed home and watched everything. Turned off CO2 at around 6PM with lights out at 8PM. Everything seemed fine and fish was ok. I have a small discuss fish and 2 mollies in it.
> 
> Day2: I started CO2 and light at 7:30AM. Adjusted it to just very fine bubbles. When I came back home at 7:00PM. my discuss was up side down gasping for air and both mollies were also at top. I quickly stopped CO2, changed 20% water and created surface movement a lot. Discuss was not responding. Moved it to a separate container with 50% aquarium water and 50% fresh water. After 30 mins, she regained her movement. Its back in aquarium and doing fine.
> 
> CO2 is stopped now. Plant growth was good in these 2 days, New growth was more reddish and about 1 CM in just 2 days. But I can't afford to loose fish for this. Is 12 hours CO2 too much?


10 gallons doesn't take much to overdo it in. The needle valves on these DIY systems are not very sensations, so what you thought was low could easily have been 2-3 bubbles per second if not more. A bubble counter is such a cheap and easy way to gauge your input that you really should pick one up.

Also, I would really encourage you to rethink the discus in there unless it's temporary. That is just to small, and they really should be kept with others.


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## hassan.nabeel

natemcnutty said:


> 10 gallons doesn't take much to overdo it in. The needle valves on these DIY systems are not very sensations, so what you thought was low could easily have been 2-3 bubbles per second if not more. A bubble counter is such a cheap and easy way to gauge your input that you really should pick one up.
> 
> Also, I would really encourage you to rethink the discus in there unless it's temporary. That is just to small, and they really should be kept with others.


Yes, I am going to get a bubble counter. Regarding discuss, it was in my 90G with other discuss and angel fish. They continued to harass this particular one so I moved it to smaller tank. I might try to reintroduce it in larger tank again.


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## Attackturtle

I spent a couple hours reading every post on this thread. I purchased this system. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008CUZJF6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I received 2 sets of instructions with this set. One explaining general setup and the other which I think will interest Jrill and Hoppy since you 2 seem to be the thread parents. Pic Below. 

I wanted to add that the ball in the citric acid bottle is weighted and absolutely has a magnet in it on my set. The below instructions apparently want me to position the ball near the top of the water level in the citric acid when doing my initial squeeze start up. It calls the ball acid absorbing. I hope this is a translation error from Chinese. Also, it has instructions for you to remove the ball from the water line when the reactions are mature stage. I'm confused as to why. I suspect they think it will be easier to equalize unstable pressure if it is below the water line?

I neglected to move the ball for my initial squeezes. I was surprised how many times I had to squeeze and open close the valve. Watching youtube videos, I expected just 2 to 3 times. I had to squeeze open close squeeze probably 5-6 times.

Efficiency in mind, I believe you want to squeeze bottle B just before you open the needle valve and then squeeze A hard just as the liquid is entering bottle B before closing the needle valve again to assist the pressure in maximizing how much citric acid is moved over per squeeze rotation on initial set up. 


Just starting up, I have a BPS of 1 every 3 to 4 seconds to make sure there are no fluctuations in BPS or die offs. I have an air stone in there and wont remove it till this weekend to give my fish a safety net. It is a 5.5 planted so things could go south fast.


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## jrill

Interesting. I can tell you that the ball on mine is not a magnet, just weighted. Two squeezes and mine is ready. I open the valve only if I want more start up pressure but only once or twice. The height thing seems odd. Can't see what difference that would make. Mine is always rock bottom.

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## Attackturtle

I had enough pressure after just a couple squeezes to start bps. The instructions said to continue open close valve until the pressure is 1.2 to 1.3. I believe it said it will avoid low pressure later on if you start at a higher pressure.


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## jrill

Attackturtle said:


> I had enough pressure after just a couple squeezes to start bps. The instructions said to continue open close valve until the pressure is 1.2 to 1.3. I believe it said it will avoid low pressure later on if you start at a higher pressure.


I disagree about avoiding low pressure later. That has not been my experience. You will see low pressure at first. High pressure for most of the time until pressure drops as your citric acid is nearly gone.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Attackturtle

jrill said:


> I disagree about avoiding low pressure later. That has not been my experience. You will see low pressure at first. High pressure for most of the time until pressure drops as your citric acid is nearly gone.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


When you say your pressure rises, is it slow or all at one? Came home and my drop checker was almost yellow. Looked at my bubble counter and it doubled to 2 bps from the 1 bps I had it at all weekend. PSI was almost 4. It was 1.5 yesterday. I used the magnet to raise the airline in bottle A to release pressure back to green. Only had 2 ghost shrimp in the tank and neither was acting any weirder than normal for a ghost.

When you start a new batch, do you make sure to get above 1 or do you just let it rise naturally?

Looking at that secondary instruction I posted I could have avoided this if I had positioned the ball with the magnet they provided where they suggested.


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## jrill

How fast the pressure raises will vary. Usually it's been a large raise over night but I have no idea how raising the ball will affect things. That appears to be a fairly new addition to the setup. 
On a new batch it does not seem to matter if you start with a little or alot. I restarted a batch yesterday with two squeezes and barely registering on the guage. It's running fine and I'm sure it will continue to. I do check the bubble count daily and adjust as necessary.


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## Attackturtle

So the suggestion from the instructions is that the spike can be expected when bottle B reaches a certain volume. It states the reaction is incomplete and the growing volume will increase the reaction of the acid that is already there. If the ball is at the bottom of bottle A, this reaction will run away by self supplying more and more acid. Since this runaway is expected, you can use the magnet to move the ball to a higher spot in bottle A. The instructions attempt to help you guess where this location will be. Instead of the reaction drawing more citric acid, it should just moderately increase the pressure. You can then "coast" on that pressure for a few days until you need to put the ball back down into the citric acid.


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## jrill

Attackturtle said:


> So the suggestion from the instructions is that the spike can be expected when bottle B reaches a certain volume. It states the reaction is incomplete and the growing volume will increase the reaction of the acid that is already there. If the ball is at the bottom of bottle A, this reaction will run away by self supplying more and more acid. Since this runaway is expected, you can use the magnet to move the ball to a higher spot in bottle A. The instructions attempt to help you guess where this location will be. Instead of the reaction drawing more citric acid, it should just moderately increase the pressure. You can then "coast" on that pressure for a few days until you need to put the ball back down into the citric acid.


Interesting. Sounds like it may work. On the other hand, a large spike in pressure has never been a problem other than having to adjust the needle valve. I wonder if I can buy the ball with the magnet to experiment 😗

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## jrill

Well a few days ago I found a decent magnet and found the ball in the acid must have metal in it. I am experimenting with raising the ball as previously suggested by attackturtle and it does seem to make the system even more stable. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Attackturtle

No more runaway CO2 generation for me either :grin2:

The one I purchased came with a really nice chromed magnet. I though it was part of the regulator it was stuck on so hard and didn't realize what it was for a couple days.


Jrill, what size thank are you pumping?


----------



## jrill

Attackturtle said:


> No more runaway CO2 generation for me either :grin2:
> 
> The one I purchased came with a really nice chromed magnet. I though it was part of the regulator it was stuck on so hard and didn't realize what it was for a couple days.
> 
> 
> Jrill, what size thank are you pumping?


A 20 long low light. I try and maintain around 1 bps.

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## Attackturtle

Ive got a 5 but am 1 bps as well. With a shorter time in the water the CO2 just doesnt have enough time to dissolve as with a taller tank. I assume your aiming for 10-15 ppm since you have low light?


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## jrill

Give or take. Just trying to add a little to boost growth.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## manthaje

Attackturtle said:


> I spent a couple hours reading every post on this thread. I purchased this system. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008CUZJF6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> I received 2 sets of instructions with this set. One explaining general setup and the other which I think will interest Jrill and Hoppy since you 2 seem to be the thread parents. Pic Below.
> 
> I wanted to add that the ball in the citric acid bottle is weighted and absolutely has a magnet in it on my set. The below instructions apparently want me to position the ball near the top of the water level in the citric acid when doing my initial squeeze start up. It calls the ball acid absorbing. I hope this is a translation error from Chinese. Also, it has instructions for you to remove the ball from the water line when the reactions are mature stage. I'm confused as to why. I suspect they think it will be easier to equalize unstable pressure if it is below the water line?
> 
> I neglected to move the ball for my initial squeezes. I was surprised how many times I had to squeeze and open close the valve. Watching youtube videos, I expected just 2 to 3 times. I had to squeeze open close squeeze probably 5-6 times.
> 
> Efficiency in mind, I believe you want to squeeze bottle B just before you open the needle valve and then squeeze A hard just as the liquid is entering bottle B before closing the needle valve again to assist the pressure in maximizing how much citric acid is moved over per squeeze rotation on initial set up.
> 
> 
> Just starting up, I have a BPS of 1 every 3 to 4 seconds to make sure there are no fluctuations in BPS or die offs. I have an air stone in there and wont remove it till this weekend to give my fish a safety net. It is a 5.5 planted so things could go south fast.


I'm new to planted tanks and CO2. I have low light on my low light plants. I got this same system with English translation from Chinese  Ordered on Amazon. It has the little ball with the magnet you put on the outside, and I understand every few days you squeeze a bottle or lower the ball to inject more citric acid into the sodium bicarb to increase pressure. I used it with one bottle to set up a yeast/sugar system initially because I didn't have the citric acid yet. I ran it at 1 bubble/4sec on my 10 gallon. It seemed to work well and I kept pressure for 3 weeks! It was often not in the green 1-2 area on the pressure gauge, but I could always adjust to get the bubbles per sec I wanted. However, the diffuser has a green growth on it now (it's no where else in my tank), so I decided to change it up to the citric acid. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with the "ingredients" used in my CO2 reactor, but that's the way my newbie brain processes things! I'm curious if I'll be able to maintain pressure with the citric acid as long as the yeast/sugar system.

Awesome discussion, learned a lot reading this thread!


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## jrill

You should be able to maintain pressure much longer with the citric acid than you did with the yeast. I am a little over a week in using the magnet to move the ball. I lowered twice so far. About a 1/4" each time. Have not needed to squeeze the bottle. I don't think you will need to do that unless you let the pressure drop to near 0.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Attackturtle

manthaje said:


> I'm new to planted tanks and CO2. I have low light on my low light plants. I got this same system with English translation from Chinese  Ordered on Amazon. It has the little ball with the magnet you put on the outside, and I understand every few days you squeeze a bottle or lower the ball to inject more citric acid into the sodium bicarb to increase pressure. I used it with one bottle to set up a yeast/sugar system initially because I didn't have the citric acid yet. I ran it at 1 bubble/4sec on my 10 gallon. It seemed to work well and I kept pressure for 3 weeks! It was often not in the green 1-2 area on the pressure gauge, but I could always adjust to get the bubbles per sec I wanted. However, the diffuser has a green growth on it now (it's no where else in my tank), so I decided to change it up to the citric acid. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with the "ingredients" used in my CO2 reactor, but that's the way my newbie brain processes things! I'm curious if I'll be able to maintain pressure with the citric acid as long as the yeast/sugar system.
> 
> Awesome discussion, learned a lot reading this thread!



You won't need to squeeze the bottle after you start the citric acid recipe. I sometimes shake the baking soda bottle a bit to get some reaction but I might just want attention. :grin2: 

***UPDATE ON STARTUP***

So I originally posted having to open and close the needle valve as the instructions said to get the pressure to green. I just started my second batch and figured out a one bottle squeeze method. 

Mix you bottle A and B recipe. (I am trying 250 grams of baking soda 200 water this time to 200 of citric 600 water this time). 

Tighten bottle A. Just before you tighten bottle B, squeeze a bunch of air out. Like at least half. Now, when you do your initial squeeze on bottle A, go to town. You will get a LOT more of the citric acid in one squeeze than you would if you didnt squeeze out air before. I got right up into the green zone with one squeeze doing this. (NO wasted CO2 by opening closing the valve)

Perhaps I should create a youtube video. A lot of them seem to splice out parts that confuse viewers. 

I also made sure to use my magnet to move the ball in bottle A up higher so I should avoid a massive runaway reaction like I had a couple weeks ago. Time will tell.


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## FewestKitten896

Not sure if this is a good deal or not but saw it pop up in my slickdeals app. 5lb citric acid for 13.89 on amazon. Free prime shipping. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...6cfc5390INT&ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A10LZNXDPIZCNZ

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## jrill

FewestKitten896 said:


> Not sure if this is a good deal or not but saw it pop up in my slickdeals app. 5lb citric acid for 13.89 on amazon. Free prime shipping. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...6cfc5390INT&ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A10LZNXDPIZCNZ
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


That's a good price.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## FewestKitten896

jrill said:


> That's a good price.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Yeah I wasn't looking for myself, just thought it seemed like a good place to post. I was almost tempted to do the DIY co2 method but eventually just went pressurized. I definitely have read this whole thread at least twice though


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## Herodusun

Hi to all, newbie here 

I had just finished reading this thread and had also just gotten myself the bar type D501 just like jrill's.

Had any of u guys using/having the D501 noticed your pressure gauge acting like mine? (as picture)
The yellow/orange indicator not pointing to 0 when not in used/installed. Mine here pointing at nearly 1.

Is this normal? or maybe a faulty gauge?

Despite this, i went ahead and did the mixture as per the instructions ratio:
Bottle A - 200g C.Acid + 600ml water
Bottle B - 200g B.Soda + 200ml water

Did the squeeze then open-close valve thing, and surprisingly the indicator raise to 2kg, and both Bottle A & B is hard filled with pressure.

My setup is:

D501 --> a metal bubble counter (like jrill's) only mine had both the ends attaches to tubing ---> another check valve -----> An Easy-Aqua Super Atomic L-Shape diffuser

I can adjust the needle valve to like 1-2 bubble per sec, and the diffuser seems to be dispersing micro bubbles fine.
Can i assume the D501 is working fine? maybe just guess the pressure gauge indicator a little bit faulty cause its not pointing to 0?

Note: been running 24/7 for 2 days now at 1-2 bubble per sec and this morning i check the pointer is still pointing at 2kg still same as before i attached it to my tank. Co2 seems to be dispersing fine on the diffuser too.


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## jrill

Sounds like your good. My guage doesn't go too zero either. 2 ish is the lowest it goes. 

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## Herodusun

Update and findings: 
came back from home yesterday and found out; 2nd day of using D501

1. no bubbles from diffuser
2. water in bubble counter nearly drained
3. checked my D501, and found all citric acid in bottle A drained to bottle B (soda mix)

Checked connection and found tubing were disconnected from check valve (probably due to pressure, and my fault for not zip tying the tubes to it)

After reading all through this thread, seems a *LEAK* or if your c02 is venting out, above will happen.
will probably go to my LFS to get the check valve with a tube fastener is my best solution for leak-proofing in the future.

zip tying my tubes to the check valve will probably not work cause of the check valve design (straight V with no tiny bumps to hold the zip tie)

with all the solutions now in bottle B, it lasted maybe till midnight or so last night , cause when i checked this morning, there is not enough pressure for the co2 to pass through my diffuser.

Just sharing my experience. Great thread, i learned a lot from reading here


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## jrill

Herodusun said:


> Update and findings:
> came back from home yesterday and found out; 2nd day of using D501
> 
> 1. no bubbles from diffuser
> 2. water in bubble counter nearly drained
> 3. checked my D501, and found all citric acid in bottle A drained to bottle B (soda mix)
> 
> Checked connection and found tubing were disconnected from check valve (probably due to pressure, and my fault for not zip tying the tubes to it)
> 
> After reading all through this thread, seems a *LEAK* or if your c02 is venting out, above will happen.
> will probably go to my LFS to get the check valve with a tube fastener is my best solution for leak-proofing in the future.
> 
> zip tying my tubes to the check valve will probably not work cause of the check valve design (straight V with no tiny bumps to hold the zip tie)
> 
> with all the solutions now in bottle B, it lasted maybe till midnight or so last night , cause when i checked this morning, there is not enough pressure for the co2 to pass through my diffuser.
> 
> Just sharing my experience. Great thread, i learned a lot from reading here


Leaks can really drive you nuts. Diffusers seem to cause problems too. I tried one once but it blew a line off too. Now I just feed the co2 through my eheim intake.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Attackturtle

Herodusun said:


> Update and findings:
> came back from home yesterday and found out; 2nd day of using D501
> 
> 1. no bubbles from diffuser
> 2. water in bubble counter nearly drained
> 3. checked my D501, and found all citric acid in bottle A drained to bottle B (soda mix)
> 
> Checked connection and found tubing were disconnected from check valve (probably due to pressure, and my fault for not zip tying the tubes to it)
> 
> After reading all through this thread, seems a *LEAK* or if your c02 is venting out, above will happen.
> will probably go to my LFS to get the check valve with a tube fastener is my best solution for leak-proofing in the future.
> 
> zip tying my tubes to the check valve will probably not work cause of the check valve design (straight V with no tiny bumps to hold the zip tie)
> 
> with all the solutions now in bottle B, it lasted maybe till midnight or so last night , cause when i checked this morning, there is not enough pressure for the co2 to pass through my diffuser.
> 
> Just sharing my experience. Great thread, i learned a lot from reading here



Is that diffuser ceramic or glass? I had pressure issues when trying to use a ceramic diffuser. It wouldn't and then when I turned the system off for the night it backflowed to the check valve and wouldnt let bubbles through in the morning. It really forced a lot of pressure through everything. I pulled the line off the bubble counter and got a nasty spray of water and CO2 all over. 

If you are going DIY, go all in and make your own diffuser. I had had luck with a syringe and cotton but there are several methods. 

Anyway, I have no zip ties and no high pressure in my lines to fail. I DO use teflon tape, the yellow stuff, on my 2 liters. I had that around for my gas grill anyway.


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## Herodusun

Im using this diffuser by Easy-Aqua

here it is in my tank doing some misty bubbles (sry taken using my crappy phone camera  )


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## Herodusun

Hi all,

remix new mix yesterday after getting an upgrade for my check valve (one with a tube fastener)
Checked bottles this morning, acid mix down to about half. is this normal?
im guessing when i get back home later today, acid mix would be empty by then.

Is it due to;
1. when i made a new mix, acid mix i did fully shake and made sure its all mix. but for the soda mix, i only shake it a bit (cause i read somewhere soda mix need not to be mix fully, correct me if im wrong)
recipe was still as previous ; A - 600ml water + 200g acid / B - 200ml water + 200g acid
Pressure gauge was at 2KG when i reconnect the tubes to my tank

2. maybe another possible *LEAK * somewhere?
connections are all with tube fasterners, at bubble counter, at check valve, at diffusers.
im suspecting maybe the needle valve is leaking? the fine tune knob maybe? cause if we dial it open fully it can disconnect from valve.

3. maybe on the pressure release knob?

fyi, not yet add teflon tape to any of the possible leak spots, like the bottle top end to the D501, needle valve to bar, idk if we can detach the pressure gauge from the bar, feels hard and scared to twist the gauge and break it.

any suggestion is appreciated or maybe share some experience and solutions 

wasted like 400g acid and 400g soda in 2 days, lol, but its still fun to do


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## jrill

It should not be down that far so soon. My guess is there's a leak somewhere. You can also limit acid loss till you find the leak by using a magnet to raise the acid ball higher in the solution. I have been keeping mine about a 1/4" below the acid line.

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## Herodusun

had no tried using a magnet to raise the acid ball yet (will do later for acid saving)

jrill, what happens if the acid exceeds the 1/4" line? reaction stops until we manually move it further down again?
im understanding this as to save the acid until we move the ball again for further gas production manually later. if this is true, does it vary between days until we have to move it down again later?

how long (days) until u have to move the ball again if the ball is at at 1/4 below the acid line, 
im guessing your duration would be longer due to yours having a solenoid which cuts the reaction every 8hrs.

mine is dropping fast maybe due to not yet having a solenoid installed and running it all day-night.

are all AC solenoid normally hot to touch? is it the way it normally behaves? cause i can only get my hands on a china made (Wyin brand types) here locally. any1 had any experience using the Wyin?

attached is an example;


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## jrill

I have only been using the magnet for a couple of weeks so I don't know the definitive answer to how often to lower the ball but so far is been every three or four days. I just watch the pressure and when it drops more than I want it to I lower the ball.
My first solenoid was much like the one you show. It was ac and ran a little hot. I switched to a DC model. I am sure using the solenoid does make the mix last longer. 
I'm not sure what you mean by the acid exceeding the 1/4" line. the lower you drop the ball the more acid is available so if there's is a leak the system will keep using the acid to try and equilize the pressure between the bottles.

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## Herodusun

I am asking if this is doable;

Currently using D501 - 1.5L soda bottles A-600L/200g mix B-200L/200g mix - this roughly gives me 3-4days running 24/7 1-2bps @ 2KG 
I noticed when i close the valve at night to save gas, in the morning my A mix is almost empty, no leak but the pressure rocketed to 3-4 KG
is this maybe due to mixtures had not yet reach equilibrium and still reacting when i close the valve?

since the above always happens, im trying to add more acid mix for longer time
im thinking of getting a 2.5L bottle and double the ratio
A- 1200L/400g B-400L/400g - total would be 2400L of mixtures in bottle B all all is siphoned from A until end of mix.

is this practically/theoretically doable? im thinking pressure would still be the same, just bigger space and more mixtures 

or maybe the above happens cause im using 1.5L bottles, since recommended is to use 2L bottles, and since im using smaller bottles maybe that explains why B still siphones A mix just to reach the 2KG equilibrium.


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## Attackturtle

I feel like even 24/7 you should be able to go 2 weeks on that setup. The pressure increase is something that happens to me about 10-15 days in. I run my co2 14 hours a day. I strongly suspect a leak. I had one on my last batch that was hard to find. 

I am experimenting with the recipe too but I am adding more baking soda. After my first batch, I added more baking soda and it reacted strongly suggesting there was enough acid in the leftover to continue production. My current test recipe is A600l/200g B200l/250g. I think scaling up should work although others claim they had little luck. I do not think using 1.5l bottles has affected you.


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## jrill

I agree with aturtle, you have a leak.

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## Attackturtle

My last leak was due to overstretched airline over a manual shut offconnection. If you don't think the actual unit holding your bottles is at fault double check your lines. When I started messing around with the lines, I heard a hiss and eventually had it pop off when I was turning on and off the needle valve


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## NightHedgie

Hi all, I've read this thread from start till end, all 55 pages and it has been real informative.

I got myself the D501 Bar type unit with a separate solenoid, and had all sorts problems with it, 
- like Bottle A emptying everything into Bottle B
- drifting bubble count (This was a major issue) every time the solenoid came on, I would get massive bubbles and I had to readjust the needle valve all the time. This really defeats the purpose of having a solenoid.
- with the solenoid off, both bottles cannot equalise pressure and the process keeps going till it blew off the tubing.

But thanks to this thread with all the trial and errors, tips, experience , I've managed to fix my problem, and it works real well now.

I just had to thank you all.


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## Attackturtle

NightHedgie said:


> Hi all, I've read this thread from start till end, all 55 pages and it has been real informative.
> 
> I got myself the D501 Bar type unit with a separate solenoid, and had all sorts problems with it,
> - like Bottle A emptying everything into Bottle B
> - drifting bubble count (This was a major issue) every time the solenoid came on, I would get massive bubbles and I had to readjust the needle valve all the time. This really defeats the purpose of having a solenoid.
> - with the solenoid off, both bottles cannot equalise pressure and the process keeps going till it blew off the tubing.
> 
> But thanks to this thread with all the trial and errors, tips, experience , I've managed to fix my problem, and it works real well now.
> 
> I just had to thank you all.


 

Glad it worked out. Not sure why the solenoid caused problems. It shouldn't have affected it.


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## jrill

NightHedgie said:


> Hi all, I've read this thread from start till end, all 55 pages and it has been real informative.
> 
> I got myself the D501 Bar type unit with a separate solenoid, and had all sorts problems with it,
> - like Bottle A emptying everything into Bottle B
> - drifting bubble count (This was a major issue) every time the solenoid came on, I would get massive bubbles and I had to readjust the needle valve all the time. This really defeats the purpose of having a solenoid.
> - with the solenoid off, both bottles cannot equalise pressure and the process keeps going till it blew off the tubing.
> 
> But thanks to this thread with all the trial and errors, tips, experience , I've managed to fix my problem, and it works real well now.
> 
> I just had to thank you all.


Glad you got it sorted out. The trick of raising the ball at the bottom with a magnet has been really helpful on my unit. No more large pressure swings which keeps the bubble rate vary stable.

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## NightHedgie

Attackturtle said:


> Glad it worked out. Not sure why the solenoid caused problems. It shouldn't have affected it.


It's not the solenoid, it's the needle valve that comes with the D-501. The valve doesn't seem to be able to regulate the pressure, it drifts from day to day, constant adjustments.


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## NightHedgie

jrill said:


> Glad you got it sorted out. The trick of raising the ball at the bottom with a magnet has been really helpful on my unit. No more large pressure swings which keeps the bubble rate vary stable.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I've also raised it like u. But so far, after 10 days I haven't had any major drops in Bottle A. I've marked levels on the bottle each morning and night. But it's raised about half inch below the citric asid level (just in case)


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## NightHedgie

Spoke too soon... Came home today.....Day 11, the pressure on the meter went up from 1.2kg/cm2 (17psi) to 2.7kg/cm2 (38psi), Level on Bottle A dropped about 1/2 inch. Luckily i followed the earlier tip to raise the ball with a magnet to 1/2 inch below the citric acid level... that limited the damage and didn't empty Bottle A. My UP needle valve held and the bubble count was still correct. But I don't understand why all of a sudden it suddenly drew more Citric Acid over..... it was dropping about 1/8 inch a day on the past 10 days and the pressure held at a constant 17psi.


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## jrill

It does that after about a week and a half or so. That's why the magnet is helpful. You should be able to bleed off that built up pressure for a week or more. 

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## NightHedgie

jrill said:


> It does that after about a week and a half or so. That's why the magnet is helpful. You should be able to bleed off that built up pressure for a week or more.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Any reason/explanation why it does that?


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## jrill

NightHedgie said:


> Any reason/explanation why it does that?


Nope. Not a clue. Before I used the magnet I would just let it run that way. It would not empty all the way but would equilize at a higher pressure. It would then run normal till the end by maintaining the higher pressure. If the acid emptyed all the way that would indicate a leak. Moving the magnet allows you to keep the pressure lower which helps keep the bubble count stable.

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## NightHedgie

So currently do I keep the ball out of the citric acid? And just bleed off the higher pressure by usage and lower the ball when the pressure drops? Or will it have equalized at this higher pressure and I can already lower the ball to just below the acid level?


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## jrill

I leave the ball out until the pressure drops. 

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## Attackturtle

NightHedgie said:


> Any reason/explanation why it does that?



I speculate it has to do with unmixed solution reacting due to critical mass of solution. I noticed if I shake bottle B early at any time, it will often react. ( I do not have the "bar" set up so I can shake one bottle without shaking the other making shaking easier.) I think what happens is that solution from A goes to B. There is an instant reaction but it does not use up all of the citric acid that moved over to B. There is a reaction with the solution but lots of unmixed baking soda is just sitting on the bottom of B waiting for its day. One day, around day 10 for me too, the weight and volume of unused citric acid sitting on top of the unmixed baking soda becomes sufficient that there is a reaction at the bottom of bottle B. The reaction stirs the mix causing more and more baking soda to mix with more and more citric acid. Said reaction causes a pressure increase which in turn increases your BPS. The higher pressure now starts to regulate via the tubing to stay at the increased BPS drawing more citric acid and the entire system is in runaway mode until it is artificially stopped by the magnet ball rising above the fluid level of bottle A or if not that, given enough time, sucking all fluid from A and expressing overly high pressure through the safety valve.


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## NightHedgie

Thanks Attackturtle... Hmmmm I will experiment on the next batch... I'll drop a couple of stainless steel ball bearings in and use a magnet to stir it every few days . What do u think? 

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## NightHedgie

Another thought just struck me..... "the entire system is in runaway mode until it is artificially stopped by the magnet ball rising above the fluid level of bottle A". After that will it ever equalise the pressure between the 2 bottles and go back to normal ? Or do i have to keep lifting the ball out and only lower it as and when i need it?


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## Attackturtle

NightHedgie said:


> Thanks Attackturtle... Hmmmm I will experiment on the next batch... I'll drop a couple of stainless steel ball bearings in and use a magnet to stir it every few days . What do u think?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G9287C using Tapatalk


That might do the trick to avoid the runaway. I find I can shake it vigorously and get some good reaction. I have been using 150% of the mix to the same amount of water though. Im gonna go back to the reg formula for a bit. I find that although it does last longer it needs more babysitting and the pressure fluctuations are much greater.


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## jrill

NightHedgie said:


> Another thought just struck me..... "the entire system is in runaway mode until it is artificially stopped by the magnet ball rising above the fluid level of bottle A". After that will it ever equalise the pressure between the 2 bottles and go back to normal ? Or do i have to keep lifting the ball out and only lower it as and when i need it?


I find by lowering it about a 1/4" at a time gives me good control. When the pressure has dropped where I like it I lower it another 1/4".

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## NightHedgie

Looks like Attackturtle is correct. Last night the pressure was at the correct point that I wanted, lowered the ball a 1/4" down, acid was being slowly sucked to bottle A , I could see it dripping in, but no major reaction. Pressure was still at the correct point a couple of hours later. I figured maybe it needed that much, so I lowered it 1/4" again. It still slowly dripped over till the ball was out of the acid. When my solenoid shut off the flow, I looked at the pressure gauge, still at the point I wanted. So I just left the ball out of the acid . Next morning the pressure was at 4.5 kg/cm2 instead of the point I wanted 1.5kg/cm2 

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## KOOTENAYSNIPER

Just wondering if you can use citric acid in a single bottle set up,I have a Nutrafin co2 set up that i use the yeast baking soda sugar recipe in and was wondering if i can use that for my citric acid recipe ?


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## Attackturtle

It is feasible but you would not get near as much co2, the pressure would be unmanageable, and the pressure would change greatly while in use.


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## jrill

Update. Raising and lowering the ball in or out of the acid has been a real game changer. You have much more control over the pressure which means fewer needle valve adjustment


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## DIYCO2GOD

How about using magnetic stirrer (in bottle B) to prevent pressure getting too high at any point? You can get one pretty cheap from china and use it with simple timer and run it once or twice a day for example.


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## DIYCO2GOD

I decided to abandon the idea about magnetic stirrer. 

Instead I set my safety valve to 2 kg/cm2 and now the system wont ever ecxeed this pressure and the system is absolutely stable to use. I'm losing some co2 by this setup time to time but I prefer this over continuous adjusments with needle valve and magnetic ball level. I'm using solenoid with this system also. It's very hassle free now.


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## bibbster

Phew! What a thread! I'm just days away from setting up my system (using the kit from Amazon) and found this thread. Now I'm questions whether or not I need to replace the needle valve that came with the kit and if I need a solenoid.

There are several folks in this thread mentioning both but no specific brand/model. Any suggestions for a needle valve and solenoid? I poked around on ebay and just got overwhelmed by the options.


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## beckyhiker

bibbster said:


> Phew! What a thread! I'm just days away from setting up my system (using the kit from Amazon) and found this thread. Now I'm questions whether or not I need to replace the needle valve that came with the kit and if I need a solenoid.
> 
> There are several folks in this thread mentioning both but no specific brand/model. Any suggestions for a needle valve and solenoid? I poked around on ebay and just got overwhelmed by the options.


Which kit did you buy? Is it this one?

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B008CUZJF6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## bibbster

Hi beckyhiker,

Yes, that's the kit I bought.


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## Herodusun

have any1 of u guys ever measured your D501 needle regulator thread size? i tried to search the thread measurement size online and cant find any info.
plus i dont have a measurement tool 
thing is mine kinda always dies off after a few mins bubbling off 1-2bubble per sec and i had to like play around again with the valve to release 1-2 bubbles. im assuming either im doing wrong adjusting the valve or the valve is not dat good/sensitive/good quality.

if i can find the size, maybe i can get a better quality valve off ebay and replace the stock one on the D501.

or if any of u guys can teach me how to maybe fix the valve so it outputs consistent 1-2 bubble throughout 8hrs or so daily would be great.


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## Herodusun

red arrow is the thread size im looking for.
needle valve --(thread size?)----> D501 bar/body


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## natemcnutty

Better option is to get an inline needle valve and then use that one for in/off 

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## bibbster

natemcnutty said:


> Better option is to get an inline needle valve and then use that one for in/off


Recommendations?


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## Omnius

I have a citric acid bicarb generator. 

I use a proper needle valve that is for high pressure systems (350 bar). It works great.

A few points. I think recipe is backwards in that the bicarb solution should drop into the citric acid solution because the citric acid is more soluble than the bicarb by along way. Only 7.6 grams of bicarb will dissolve in 100ml of water but 150.6 grams of citric acid will dissolve in 100ml of water. Also 200grams of citric acid will react completely with 150 grams of bicarb. So the recipe should be 100 grams of citric acid in 100ml of water and 75 grams of bicarb in 1000ml of water. I have only been running mine for a week and have a slow tiny leak somewhere that I need to fix. The highest pressure I can get the system up to is 100kpa.


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## Minnowette

Firstly, thanks for all the contributors to this thread, it's definitely made for some great reading.

Secondly, I'm trying to troubleshoot the source of a bubble count that rapidly drifts downwards.

I've been running it fine for the past four weeks since purchasing it (2.5-3 bps for a 47 gallon), but with my last refill on Sunday, it's been really inconsistent. 

Regardless of whether I set it initially at 1 bps or 4 bps, within 15-45 minutes it'll drift down towards 0.5-0.25 bps. Even priming it such that the pressure gauge reads 4 kg/cm2, the bubble count will still drift rapidly downwards. Giving the needle valve knob the slightest turn will return the bps back to 3, but it will slowly decrease over the next hour until it's 0.25 bps.

I've tried several things:
- Simplifying connections and connecting the CO2 outlet straight to the bubble counter
- Checking for leaks at tubing connections
- Removing ceramic diffuser in case it's blocked due to algae growth
- Teflon tape on bottle threads
- Ensuring o-rings in the bar module are properly seated

When the needle valve is closed, the unit retains pressure overnight without drawing upon citric acid, so I don't think there's a crack in the bar module causing a leak. To rule out a leak from around the needle valve manifold, I added some teflon tape to the needle valve threading.

It's almost as if the needle valve is becoming progressively blocked when it's open. Moisture? Undissolved baking soda/citric acid?

I'm going to try flushing the bar module and needle valve to see if that helps, but I'd be keen to hear if anyone has any ideas.


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## Grobbins48

Minnowette said:


> Firstly, thanks for all the contributors to this thread, it's definitely made for some great reading.
> 
> Secondly, I'm trying to troubleshoot the source of a bubble count that rapidly drifts downwards.
> 
> I've been running it fine for the past four weeks since purchasing it (2.5-3 bps for a 47 gallon), but with my last refill on Sunday, it's been really inconsistent.
> 
> Regardless of whether I set it initially at 1 bps or 4 bps, within 15-45 minutes it'll drift down towards 0.5-0.25 bps. Even priming it such that the pressure gauge reads 4 kg/cm2, the bubble count will still drift rapidly downwards. Giving the needle valve knob the slightest turn will return the bps back to 3, but it will slowly decrease over the next hour until it's 0.25 bps.
> 
> I've tried several things:
> - Simplifying connections and connecting the CO2 outlet straight to the bubble counter
> - Checking for leaks at tubing connections
> - Removing ceramic diffuser in case it's blocked due to algae growth
> - Teflon tape on bottle threads
> - Ensuring o-rings in the bar module are properly seated
> 
> When the needle valve is closed, the unit retains pressure overnight without drawing upon citric acid, so I don't think there's a crack in the bar module causing a leak. To rule out a leak from around the needle valve manifold, I added some teflon tape to the needle valve threading.
> 
> It's almost as if the needle valve is becoming progressively blocked when it's open. Moisture? Undissolved baking soda/citric acid?
> 
> I'm going to try flushing the bar module and needle valve to see if that helps, but I'd be keen to hear if anyone has any ideas.


I used DIY for a few months before switching to pressurized. The needle valve does not really do much, and will get gunked up with the mixture, causing it to be sticky and less reliable. Running pressure that high I also found make things inconsistent. Try and keep in the rate 2 area or so, and you could have better results.


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## Minnowette

Grobbins48 said:


> I used DIY for a few months before switching to pressurized. The needle valve does not really do much, and will get gunked up with the mixture, causing it to be sticky and less reliable. Running pressure that high I also found make things inconsistent. Try and keep in the rate 2 area or so, and you could have better results.


Yeah, I figure I'll move to pressurised at some stage. But I'd like to keep the citric acid/baking soda reactor for a small, 15-20g planted shrimp tank down the line. It'll be positioned in another room, so a splitter isn't in the books unless I can figure out a discreet way of running a length of tubing.

I did run it at various pressures (from 1-5 kg/cm2), but the drifting seemed to occur regardless. But I think you hit the nail on the head with the needle valve being gunked up. 

Before stripping it down to clean, I did let the reactor run at 6-8 bps for 30 minutes just as a test, and I noticed that it wasn't drifting. I lowered it to 3 bps, and it's been steady for several hours. This is at 2 kg/cm2 with ~100 ml left of citric acid. I'm figure that the higher bps swept away whatever debris that was clogging the needle valve.


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## Minnowette

Just an update and to help those who encounter the same issue down the line.

My bubble counter was still drifting heavily this morning, and I decided to strip down the needle valve and give it a clean (I hadn't done it yesterday). I removed the needle from the manifold and gave both components a heavy flush under tap water. I then blew through the manifold to eject any water. 

While likely unnecessary, I did rewrap the needle valve threads with some teflon tape as a precaution against any leaks. Regardless, the flushing seemed to work as the bubble count held steady for the rest of the photoperiod (about 3 hours).

I figure that a major contributing factor is my occasional habit of shaking the reactor up and down to excite any undissolved citric acid/baking soda. The solution likely entered into the manifold and gummed up the needle valve. In the future I'll stick to swirling the reactor.


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## Sanel Samuel

A query here... Is the pressure gauge very important in this setup? Could i do without it? I have the 2 caps and a needle valve (used for high pressure systems) with me and i was planning to set it up without the pressure gauge. As i wasn't able to find the pressure gauge that works for this on Amazon or locally. I'm in Bangalore (India)


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## Minnowette

It's helpful when priming, but otherwise unnecessary. However, it'll be a good idea to attach a magnet to the citric acid tubing and position it about 1 cm below the top waterline to ensure that, if there's a leak of some sort, a runaway reaction doesn't occur and pop the tops off.


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## Omnius

Well I have messed about with different mixtures to try and get longer generation time. If I increase the ingredients and use 2 litre bottles I just get over pressurisation. I almost blew up the thing. So I thing a gauge is a must have.


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## Aparker2005

This may have been covered, but is this method worth trying on a 125 gallon? Thinking of getting a gla pressurized system for Christmas, but wanted to try this if it works on larger tanks 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## natemcnutty

Aparker2005 said:


> This may have been covered, but is this method worth trying on a 125 gallon? Thinking of getting a gla pressurized system for Christmas, but wanted to try this if it works on larger tanks
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


No, and it would not be cost effective either. On my 20 long, I got 2-3 weeks per mixture in 2 liter bottles. If you only wanted to add 2-3 ppm CO2 in your 125, then you'd have about the same length of time 

By the third or fourth month, you'll have already paid for a pressurized system


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## Aparker2005

natemcnutty said:


> No, and it would not be cost effective either. On my 20 long, I got 2-3 weeks per mixture in 2 liter bottles. If you only wanted to add 2-3 ppm CO2 in your 125, then you'd have about the same length of time
> 
> By the third or fourth month, you'll have already paid for a pressurized system


Thanks. Think I'll go for the gla system at Christmas then! 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Halaster

*Just setup my own with 2.5 Liter bottles.*

Set one of these up today on a 55 gallon tank with a bubble counter/diffuser. It is going through a Wyin Solenoid with a check valve setup as well.

So far for the first day it is working great. 

I did not really read through all 57 pages of this post so I am not sure if others have tried it yet but I did not go with 2 liter bottles. 
I found that dollar tree sells 2.5 and 2.75 liter sodas allowing quite a bit more space to work with. 
They are the same size around but taller. 

For my first batch I went with 1 1/2 Cups Citric Acid and 4 1/2 Cups of water on one side and 1 1/2 Cups Baking Soda and 1 1/2 Cups of water on the other side.
Next time I plan to go with 2 + 6 and 2 + 2.

I know there are already a couple videos on youtube but I recorded another one showing the setup of this with the 2.5 Liter bottles, and what it looks like once its hooked up to the tank and running.
Can see that here if interested.


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## Halaster

After running for about 5 days at 3.5 BPS for 10 hours a day this is where I currently sit on usage:


















It is reasonably steady, but a time or two the pressure really spiked, so I do have to keep my eye on it and cannot just leave it going for a week.
There are zero leaks as far as I can tell as well. The pressure appears to hold completely steady while it shuts off at night.


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## Halaster

Got a week usage out of it. Just filled up again and doubled the batch size this time to see if it lasts longer.


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## Halaster

It looks like I am getting 11 days out of it this time compared to the 7 days previously. By going from 1 1/2 Cups to 2 Cups.

So a pretty even increase in duration based on the addition amount I added.

Edit: Looks like I am actually going to get 13 days out of it, not the initial 11 I was expecting.
Edit 2: Make that 15 days or possibly even 16, which is really not bad. 

Here are the photos of the current usage near the end of day 14. Should be enough pressure left for 1 or 2 more days.


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## warendamikes

Hey guys, I am new to this DIY Co2 setups, infact never done any Co2 setup before, so I have ordered the equipment for DIY which should arrive in a day or 2, however the ingredients for the co2 recipe are creating confusion to me, some website stores in my country don't have baking soda as the name but sodium bicarbonate...is it the same thing? and they also list citric acid as lemon salt...is it also the same thing for the recipe(mix) of co2? please help.


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## natemcnutty

warendamikes said:


> Hey guys, I am new to this DIY Co2 setups, infact never done any Co2 setup before, so I have ordered the equipment for DIY which should arrive in a day or 2, however the ingredients for the co2 recipe are creating confusion to me, some website stores in my country don't have baking soda as the name but sodium bicarbonate...is it the same thing? and they also list citric acid as lemon salt...is it also the same thing for the recipe(mix) of co2? please help.


Yes, baking soda is what many countries call sodium bicarbonate. It probably depends on where you buy it.

Lemon salt appears to be citric acid. That's a new one to me, but I looked it up and sure enough... Same thing!

Good luck!


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## warendamikes

natemcnutty said:


> Yes, baking soda is what many countries call sodium bicarbonate. It probably depends on where you buy it.
> 
> Lemon salt appears to be citric acid. That's a new one to me, but I looked it up and sure enough... Same thing!
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks mate, I'll proceed with purchase.


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## paolinobg

Hi guys, I have a problem with my acid citric diy co2 generator.
I follow all the procedure carefully, I checked the instruction the videos on you tube, but still my bottle A run the liquid in a couple of hours.
Can someone help me?

Sent from my VKY-L29 using Tapatalk


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## frogmanjared

paolinobg said:


> Hi guys, I have a problem with my acid citric diy co2 generator.
> I follow all the procedure carefully, I checked the instruction the videos on you tube, but still my bottle A run the liquid in a couple of hours.
> Can someone help me?
> 
> Sent from my VKY-L29 using Tapatalk


Check for leaks


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## paolinobg

Hi guys, my system last a couple of hours, I do 1 bbs, what's wrong with my system

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## Raith

paolinobg said:


> Hi guys, my system last a couple of hours, I do 1 bbs, what's wrong with my system
> 
> Sent from my VKY-L29 using Tapatalk


Might be a leaky valve, that's happened to me before.


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## Schoolofdisabledguppies

Can you use baking powder instead of baking soda??? Thanks.


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## kgbudge

Schoolofdisabledguppies said:


> Can you use baking powder instead of baking soda??? Thanks.



Baking powder is sodium bicarbonate, which yields a fair amount of carbon dioxide per pound. Baking powder is sodium bicarbonate to which an acid has already been added, in dry form. Add water and the reaction goes to completion. It's as if you poured your baking soda and citric acid into one bottle to begin with. Not recommended.


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## Legend26

So I have ordered this kit and made the mixture. The Problem is, as of now, citric acid liquid is almost zero and even the needle valve is off, still how come it's producing Co2? I can't shut it off. why is it creating Co2 even with the needle valve shut?


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## natemcnutty

Legend26 said:


> So I have ordered this kit and made the mixture. The Problem is, as of now, citric acid liquid is almost zero and even the needle valve is off, still how come it's producing Co2? I can't shut it off. why is it creating Co2 even with the needle valve shut?


Two possibilities for you to look into. First, it would be good to learn how this method works. CO2 is generated and creates pressure which is equalized. This means it is possible for the acid side to be empty while still having some remaining reaction and CO2. Second, check for leaks 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## Legend26

There are no joints between needle valve and diffuser, so chances of leaks are very less. I have got ista 3 in 1 diffuser.


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## natemcnutty

Legend26 said:


> There are no joints between needle valve and diffuser, so chances of leaks are very less. I have got ista 3 in 1 diffuser.


There are actually many places for leaks. Where the bottles connect to the caps, the tubing itself could have a small hole, etc.

If the solution didn't last as long as you expected, I would check with soapy water, Windex, or something to see if you can find any leaks.

If it lasted a good amount of time, then just make some more solution once the pressure starts going down 

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