# Green Gain



## ebichu (Mar 22, 2007)

Hi all,

I just bought ADA Green Gain. Now I got some red plants in the tank, will there be a side effect from using green gain ? Maybe the reds wont be as bright ? or something else ?

Or I shouldnt be using green gain if I got red plants in the tank ??

Can someone help ?

Thanks


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

Green gain is to help the plants recover from being trimmed for better growth afterwards which has little to do with red colors.

ECA is the iron supplement in which you would want to use for better colors in both green and red plants.


description of green gain...
Stemmed plants require frequent trimming. Stress that plants receive at trimming sometimes restrains their growth. Green Gain contains active ingredients (trace elements, minerals, amino acid etc.). Among other various botanical hormones, Green Gain includes cytokinin which, extracted from natural materials, eases plant stress and increases the resistance of aquatic plants against diseases.


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## ebichu (Mar 22, 2007)

So by adding green gain, there should be no harm done to my red plants right ?

Im getting ECA too 

What are people experiences with ECA ? They worth it ?


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

I have not noticed anything happening with my red plants.

ECA is the shizznit!!!!! after using that miracle juice I went out and bought the other ADA ferts just to try.


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

I use both ADA green gain, and ECA both are great products! I use Green gain in my shrimp tanks without any side effects.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The advertisement suggest it's just rooting hormones.
Superthrive, which is about 4$ for a year's supply or more is available everywhere and has similar ingredients FYI.

We have added that and I've added various hormones over the years, I've not seen anything I could ever call significant.

I see no reason why this product would be any different other than the ADA label.

There is no evidence I know of that suggest adding hormones to aquatic plants helps in any way in their growth. I've done plenty of searching.

Dr Kane at UF is perhaps the best expert on the topic and is a good plant guy interested in aquatic botany/ornamental aquatic plants and is well connected with Florida Aquatic nurseries in Florida. Brad, the owner's son went to UF to study with Dr Kane.

Heck of a nice guy too, I took a group from one year's plant fest to see the lab, very impressive. I did some of the test he published and had similar results with Crypt flowering. 

Fe from any supplement is not going to help red plants become redder, it will help the plants grow better if limiting, there is no Fe in the red pigments in plants nor is a limiting co factor in most of the enzymes along that pathway.
Plants will limit other pathways before they limit that one as it's very critical to new growth and development. 

I do not think anyone has ever seen much redder color from manipulation of Fe, I sure haven't. It's tough to say also as it's an arbitrary unit(color, but can be measured accurate with the right equipment) as well as a trace element, so the influences can be rather subtle at times and given that there are general sources, such as ADA AS as other Fe source, very difficult to say.

ECA is very similar to the Dupla Daily dose drops for Fe.
Suspiciously similar........I hope that the chelator is different though.....
A simple test using an acid to unchelate the Fe and then analyze the remained would be able to tell which chelator is used. 

Such issues lead to many questions and few answers. 
So you might be left with testing such things yourself, rather than any real consensus.

Try and see if there is any different between say super thrive and GG. If not, why not buy the Superthrive for a 10X or more less?


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

I have definitely noticed postive response from plants to Green Gain, ECA, and Phyton Git. They are unique products that look and smell like no other product I've ever used.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ok, so what does ECA stand for......?


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

"Efficient Complex Acid"


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I can't wait for Tom to see this.


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

Like waiting for the train wreck?


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Hypancistrus said:


> "Efficient Complex Acid"


Thanx!

....


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Rex Grigg said:


> I can't wait for Tom to see this.


I can't wait for everyone to see pictures of your tanks.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I've said many times. I'm a farmer. Not an artist. I throw out or give away buckets of plants.

My tanks look like hell. Plants everywhere. No sense of any kind of design.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

My 42 hex leaked, and while I'm waiting to get a replacement acrylic tank that has no seams so therefore won't leak, I had to throw everything into a cheapie 29. I don't have any problems posting pics of it. 










Now _that's_ art.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

There is so much going on in that picture my eyes bumped heads and are in a frantic disorder.

shower, heart chairs, hex tank, co2 tank, counter, shelves, tank, light, toliet, NewLifeSpectrum food, oh and then there's the tiger print floor...


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Yeah and that's after I "cleaned up."


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

That is one wild crib! Good catch on the shower, that was hard to see.
But I have a feeling we may be waiting a while to see anything other than Rex's birds.


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## ebichu (Mar 22, 2007)

eklikewhoa said:


> There is so much going on in that picture my eyes bumped heads and are in a frantic disorder.
> 
> shower, heart chairs, hex tank, co2 tank, counter, shelves, tank, light, toliet, NewLifeSpectrum food, oh and then there's the tiger print floor...


LOL I was about to post the same thing 

One of Green gain use is to increases the resistance of aquatic plants against diseases. What are plants diseases ??

Also, can green gain be used to fight against algae ? ie: make plants stronger and therefore help to fight against algae ?

Thanks


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

Hypancistrus said:


> Now _that's_ art.


It's somthin... Your a brave man. Good save on the hex.

BTW Siegfried & Roy have a reward out for your carpet.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Animal print carpets rule. 

"Helios Skins" if you're interested, but I don't think they make the tiger stripes any more.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Hypancistrus said:


> I have definitely noticed postive response from plants to Green Gain, ECA, and Phyton Git. They are unique products that look and smell like no other product I've ever used.


So have you tested it against say, Superthrive?
If, not, how would you know?
Do you think folks have not tried GG and ST?

Why might ST be better/worse than GG?

I mean is there some unknown plant hormone that ADA has found that no other plant scientists has? I mean that would be a huge find and be worth a lot more than than anything in this little hobby by comparison.

What does *smell* have to do with anything?
Prime smells bad, works great, KNO3 does not smell at all, also works great.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Hypancistrus said:


> My 42 hex leaked, and while I'm waiting to get a replacement acrylic tank that has no seams so therefore won't leak, I had to throw everything into a cheapie 29. I don't have any problems posting pics of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are a nut
In a good way.

But the scape vs farming issue is really not the same.

It's like comparing farming where you are learning more about growth and yeilds vs landscaping.

They have different goals.

Not everyone's goal in the same here.

But when folks rattle off about something being "better or more preferred by plants" that implies growth rates...........now you are in the farmer's turf.

Landscape management is another set of criteria.
It is based much more on aesthetics and management goals, of which there are far more than out on the farm.

ECA, what do you think might be in it?
Hummic and fluvic acids? Cheap and easy to get a hold of.
Fe? Well, there are a number of chelators that can do that also.

What really amazes me is that folks about 12-15 years decided to figure out how to DIY Dupla Daily drops but today?

I hear the same arguments from a used car salesman, hear sales pitches and marketing yuck.

Dupla claimed many things back then, while some things did work, much of what they claimed was later shown to be wrong.

Now their tanks had nice looks etc and where very successful as well.
But all their entire product line was not the reasons for the successes, nor is this also the case for the ADA product line.

When you test, you learn a lot more than if you accept marketing and just go with it. You understand more, you are able to tease things part, but I often hear I'm a bad guy for questioning things.

Rather than assuming I'm poo pooing your fav brand like some many seem to do...........at the same suggesting you use certain products from their line ironically(gee, how could that be?)...........try and think about testing and coming up with cheaper alternatives and see what is really helping the growth or a management here.

Why spend 15-20$ for a tiny amount vs 3$ or less for a life time supply?
Why might ADA's K+ be any better than KCL?
Why is Dupla's Daily drops worth any more than any other available Fe?
Did heating cables really work?

Many believed they did, some still do.
I still hound them for evidence to show that it does.
That was 15 years ago, still have yet to get an honest answer.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Great approach Tom. We need people with your mentality to progress in this hobby.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

I haven't done extensive testing on anything with Green Gain. It's an ADA product and that alone will piss some people off just by _telling_ them that you use it.

ADA does advertise it as containing "hormone," but also other trace elements and other stuff. Of course they don't say what's in it, why would they do that... however, Amano says he uses it after trimming. I tried it after trimming, and *some* plants (especially rotalas) did put out a lot more shoots that I've ever seen them put out before. I would surmise it is not _just_ the "hormone" (whatever they are using, because at this point no one knows what it is), but the combination of ingredients, whatever they are (oil extracts of Chinese water snakes maybe?). 

I mention the smell because all of the ADA products (not so much Green Gain though) have _very_ strong, noticable, and unique smells, which leads me to believe that ADA is not simply repacking something else and rebranding it.

Of course to get definitive answers a sample should be sent to a lab for testing and analysis. So until we know that, everything that's said about it from the perspective of "if such and such _might_ be in it why is it better than X Y or Z" is purely speculative.

I would recommend that people try it and use it as it's marketed... add to the tank as instructed after trimming plants. If you see more shoots and faster regrowth, then keep using it. If you don't, send it back and demand a refund.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Raul-7 said:


> Great approach Tom. We need people with your mentality to progress in this hobby.


But I come across vicious on line to many, I look back and see that I have at times and try to show what and the tone that was meant, but I type too fast for my own good at times 

It's not that I'm a bad guy, I just am interested in real debates, not semantics., sales pitches and the like. I have no issues with Claus, Troels, Ole, Bownes, Raven, Barko, Anderson, Haller, Sans Jensen, Cedergreen and all the folks that are scientists and interested in aquatic plants. These folks have throught things through, are familar with basic approaches to answering questions, I do not care about brand loyalty, neither do they.

It's the basal underlying question, you see observations, you make a hypothesis, then test it. Then you see what sense you can make out of the test results.

Straight forward, logical, and will get folks a long long way farther than mere hope, belief and "well, maybe it works, I really do not have time to test it myself, or I end up making too many mistakes in the set up, have algae issues etc so much I cannot tell one way or another".

Most folks just want to add something that helps their plants.

There is a ton of observations from aquarists, polls, folks telling their stories about algae and plants, what there is a serious lack of?

Someone who test, can test and has the control to do so.
I figure things out pretty quick that way and rarely am wrong, but I make many mistakes along that path before having something right and know the pit falls. I point these same mistakes I made to folks and they take as a personal affront.

I do not try to discredit people, ideas that I've once held yes, but it takes time for folks to learn and come around, if they never do any testing for themselves, it's very hard for them to advance.

It's like never being tested in class or doing homework.
You have to do the work.

We can read all day about "ECA caused my plants to perk up........."
But how do you know?
What is said about it?
How would you set up such a test?

Basic stuff, but folks want to suggest things they are no more sure about than homepathy remendies at times.

I tested the ADA AS, hey, I works and works well.
I love their tanks, I love the entire asethetic designs, awesome scapes, heck, who doesn't.

But Penac works also?

Oh please..........that's just offensive to anyone's critical mind. I'm not 100% on the mark either all the time. No one is. You can go about testing, if you do not want to be bothered with doing that, then do not complain when someone that has says something you do not believe. Instead, test and show that they are wrong or that there is more to it etc etc etc, Try to see if you can figure out a way to see if the relationship, the product holds up to claims etc.

Paul Seear has a PhD in Organic Chem, smart sharp guy, but he made some assumptions and I showed that they could not be correct. It was not personal, many thought the assumption was good etc.

But we as hobbyists gained a lot out of that and I gained a lot of vaulable info from him. I certainly feel we owe him a lot more than myself. They developed PMDD, not me.

That was a defining moment, adding some PO4 was just merely a small part.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Hypancistrus said:


> I haven't done extensive testing on anything with Green Gain. It's an ADA product and that alone will piss some people off just by _telling_ them that you use it.


Well, I use it, so we are in the same boat there I suppose nor do I make no illusions about it.



> ADA does advertise it as containing "hormone," but also other trace elements and other stuff. Of course they don't say what's in it, why would they do that... however, Amano says he uses it after trimming.


Do a search on Cytokinins.
Also, Rooting hormones.
How to make plant cuttings etc etc.



> I tried it after trimming, and *some* plants (especially rotalas) did put out a lot more shoots that I've ever seen them put out before. I would surmise it is not _just_ the "hormone" (whatever they are using, because at this point no one knows what it is), but the combination of ingredients, whatever they are (oil extracts of Chinese water snakes maybe?).


And can the plants sustain this level of exogenous hormonal growth effect?
How long?
How intense?
What species? (you listed some species there thumbsup!)
I know more about hormones than I wanted to learn from a few grad courses in plant development.
I also noted growth impacts using Gibberellins on Crypts.
I also know what is in the Superthrive and the Rooting hormones and they give a similar one time response.

You can dip the tips into the hormones or brush it on the tips.



> I mention the smell because all of the ADA products (not so much Green Gain though) have _very_ strong, noticable, and unique smells, which leads me to believe that ADA is not simply repacking something else and rebranding it.


Well, your nose knows :tongue: 
Not going there on that one.



> Of course to get definitive answers a sample should be sent to a lab for testing and analysis. So until we know that, everything that's said about it from the perspective of "if such and such _might_ be in it why is it better than X Y or Z" is purely speculative.


Now........Out comes science to save the day? 

Now suddenly the bar is raised to do good testing..........how convenient:help: 

Really?
Is that truly required?
Look, you can do, as can many aquarists, some rather simple test to rule out some basic possibilities without a water quality lab and exhaustive testing.

We are just trying to rule out the lower fruit, the more obvious answers.
Not that hard to do. Add Super thrive or Rooting hormone, see and compare.

We know what is stated on the label, no reason to not believe what they say there.

Hormones are very well studied. I work with a gal who's entire career is based on Hormonal development in plants at UCD. 



> I would recommend that people try it and use it as it's marketed... add to the tank as instructed after trimming plants. If you see more shoots and faster regrowth, then keep using it. If you don't, send it back and demand a refund.


Fair enough.
Then ask if you can make your own version and see if too works.
I think adding some traces and hormones is a simple, very cheap DIY project.

So if I get the same results with the same species, then will keep buying it?
Folks did a lot of test on hormones on the APD years ago.

You may want to see if it's the traces also, and not the horomes.
You also will want to repeat and see if you get that same rooting development without adding GG. Try it several times, back and forth.

What do you have to lose?
You might learn something and save yourself $ and then be able to do the same for other folks.

Not a bad thing?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## sukebe (Nov 6, 2004)

Hypancistrus said:


> Now _that's_ art.


Super rad! Looks like a karaoke-room-themed Tokyo love hotel room. 

I wish my house looked like that.


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