# Mountains of Sawdust, take two



## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Hello TPT,

I will be using this thread to journal my next aquarium adventure. The exciting parts are probably at least several weeks or months away, but in the meantime I will post the "backstory" as I have time available. About three years ago, I started work on a large built-in aquarium with a heavy emphasis on DIY. The first iteration(s) of the aquarium can be seen in my build thread on reef central. The aquarium was initially built as a marine reef. While I loved and enjoyed building the system as a reef, it got to the point where owning/operating it as a reef wasn't really meeting my needs, so to speak. So, over the last month or two, I have been planning it's conversion to a planted freshwater aquarium.

More to come...


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

First a little background about myself. I have been keeping aquariums of one form or another for most of my life. My first few systems were essentially boring freshwater community tanks. Eventually I was bitten by the reef bug and, as is the case with many marine hobbyists, I took a stance that FW was inherently less interesting/desirable than marine.

Fast forward to 6 or 7 years ago - I had just taken down a 125g reef system and was contemplating replacing it with a smaller reef. Instead I decided to take a temporary break from marine aquariums and I jumped headfirst into high-tech planted FW, more or less just to do something different. Well, instead of being just a temporary diversion, I pretty much caught the bug.

That brings me up more or less to the point at which I started the project linked above. In my heart I still felt like I wanted a reef system but there was always an inner debate about which direction to go. I went with a reef because that's what I knew best and I figured it would be the most fulfilling.

Well, now that I'm a few years in to the project, I've reached the point where it's just not fulfilling. There are a handful of objective reasons why I'm not happy with the tank (time/cost/complexity to keep it running, noise, etc) but it's just inherently not making me happy. The reef is beautiful, colorful, boisterous, and in a way, very much in your face. It's exciting and flashy. At one point in my life, those attributes were attractive.

However, things change. Where I am right now, it's almost TOO flashy. I've realized that what I want from an aquarium is not flash and pop and impressiveness. What I want is something that's calming, peaceful, and gentle. I'm convinced that planted FW will give me that overall effect much better than the reef ever could.

So that's the soul-searching commentary out of the way. Next update I'll give a quick overview of the system and what I want to do with it.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Oh, just to prove that I can do the planted tank thing, here's a photo (the ONLY photo I think) of one of my old systems:


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Okay, so here's a cliff notes version of the system as a reef. This can all be gleaned from the thread I linked above, if you're willing to read through a few dozen pages of comments. I will post links below to specific points in that thread. I'm choosing to do this instead of cut-pasting it all here again as IMHO it's more valuable to see it intact, especially since some of these posts were done 3 or 4 years ago now.

The aquarium is approximately 360 gallons. It is 6' x 4' x 2', length x width x height. The 6' x 4' footprint was chosen specifically to give a depth to the aquascaping, vs. a thinner aquarium which IMHO can lead to a flat, two dimensional look. My house has an open floor plan, I located the aquarium so that it's visible from most of the communal living space on the first floor. More details here on the overall concept.

The aquarium itself is plywood, with glass viewing panels. There is a full-size viewing panel on the front, as well as much smaller viewing panels on one end and the back. These smaller panels were done purposefully to create a sense of "mystery" - when you enter the house at the front door, as you walk down the hall, you can get a glimpse of the aquarium through these smaller panels, but you don't see the whole thing until you walk around the corner. Doing it this way also saves me from having to design an aquascape that looks good from all sides!

In addition to the plywood aquarium, I built a plywood sump. The construction of the sump and aquarium are detailed in these posts:

Sump assembled

Tank shell first assembled

Epoxy work begun

Epoxy pour process explained

Display tank complete, except for glass

Glass install begins

Stand and hood framing complete


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

For those too lazy to click, here's a quick photo-montage of the building of the system as a reef.

Tank location on floorplan:









Building the tank and sump:


















tank put together, lawn chair to show scale:









epoxy and supplies:









Tank sealed, waiting for glass (it's upside down):









Installing the glass:









Installed and framing begun:









Sheetrock hung and finished:









Saltwater, rock, sand, and first livestock in the tank:









And here's a random shot of one of the LED arrays in progress:









After it had been up and running for a while, I realized there was a delamination in one of the plywood braces. I drained the tank, put the livestock in a temporary system, and contemplated what to do. I ALMOST converted it to a planted FW tank at that point but decided that I had so much invested in the reef configuration that I should stick with it. That was maybe two years ago.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Speaking of LEDs, I will be retaining those with the planted FW configuration. I DIY'd the LED arrays, as well as the drivers and controller that are running them. Here are some photos during my initial testing of the LEDs, playing around with different settings on the controller:

All on 100%:










Whites 100%, blues off:










Whites at 50%, blues 100%:










Whites off, blues 100%:


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Here's one of the first pictures I took with it "finished" and running:










And here's a photo I took a few days before starting to tear it down:


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Ok, so that tells the story of how I got where I am today, and what the tank was like when run as a marine reef.

Up next, details on my plan for the future.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

I really like the dimensions of that aquarium. It looks a little awkward in pictures, but I know dimensions like that don't translate to pictures very well and its probably much better in real life. Can't wait to see it as a planted jungle!


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## O2surplus (Jan 31, 2010)

No Way! I knew I'd seen your screen name before, but I couldn't quite place it until now.
Welcome to the Planted Tank Forum DWZM! I followed your build thread for your tank and a lot of the other threads that you had a hand in over at ReefCentral. I'm looking forward to see what you come up with for a "serene" layout for this huge tank.
Be mindful that plants grow a heck of a lot faster than corals, so carefull selection of species will be needed, if your looking to keep maintenance time to a minumum.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

thelub said:


> I really like the dimensions of that aquarium. It looks a little awkward in pictures, but I know dimensions like that don't translate to pictures very well and its probably much better in real life. Can't wait to see it as a planted jungle!


It's really frustrating to take pictures of this thing. It's so large it's hard to capture the scale. It's also frustrating to capture colors and contrast well. Plus I'm pretty much always using a cell phone camera, and they're just hard to use in general (especially around fish tanks where you have really high variances in light).



O2surplus said:


> No Way! I knew I'd seen your screen name before, but I couldn't quite place it until now.
> Welcome to the Planted Tank Forum DWZM! I followed your build thread for your tank and a lot of the other threads that you had a hand in over at ReefCentral. I'm looking forward to see what you come up with for a "serene" layout for this huge tank.
> Be mindful that plants grow a heck of a lot faster than corals, so carefull selection of species will be needed, if your looking to keep maintenance time to a minumum.


I'm planning on going with mostly slower growing plants in the long term but will probably fill it up with stems initially. I'm reading every "large planted tank" thread I can find at the moment, as I'm finding it a little difficult to translate my experience planting smaller tanks to this size. Especially in the beginning stages - as a reef, it was fine to slowly add frags as I got them. But as a planted tank, I want to do the "stuff it full right off the bat to make sure algae doesn't stand a chance" approach, but stuffing a tank this large full of 6" stem plant cuttings is going to take a LOT of 6" stem plant cuttings!

I have a few pieces of manzanita that I will be using, plus probably a handful of rock. The rock will probably be locally collected, there's lots of slate right on my own property.

I will probably be starting a temporary tank in the next few weeks to start growing out some plants. I have a 55g in the basement to use for this. Already have lights, substrate, and CO2 for it, so it should be pretty quick to get it running. That will give me time to do the major modifications I'm planning to the main system while still growing out some plant mass.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Time to put down on paper the details as far as I have them planned. Please comment/question/correct anything as you see fit, as I'd rather change things now than after it's up and running (yes, I realize that statement is somewhat ironic given the nature of this project).

I will cover each major system in a separate post, and I'll start by describing how that system was set up while running as a reef, to give a basis for a starting point. In MOST cases I'm planning on drastically altering/reducing the "infrastructure."

First we will cover flow/filtration/plumbing as I think it's the most straightforward.

Right now, there is a large overflow box (visible in the back right corner from the front viewing pane). It is roughly 10" x 12" x 24". This box has two 1.5" bulkheads that are running as a Herbie style drain to the sump. The sump is 18" x 18" x 48". Pretty plain jane layout with three baffles separating a return compartment. Return is through a 2" bulkhead via a Reeflo Dart pump, into 1.5" PVC back up to the tank. Filtration in the sump right now is a relatively undersized skimmer, an algae turf scrubber, and a mat of macroalgae. The sump is also used as a place to dose kalk and the float switches for the auto topoff are there, too.

Additional flow is via three bulkheads in the bottom of the tank plumbed to the biggest pump ever installed on a home aquarium.

My current plan is basically to make that all GO AWAY. :lol: No, really, I mean it. I don't want a sump any more. I don't want tons of equipment. I don't really think you need tons to run a planted tank anyways.

So I'm ditching the sump, but keeping the overflow box. I plan on packing the overflow box full of filter media (probably ceramic or expanded clay to act as biological media) and running one of the existing bulkheads to the Dart, which I will mount up by the overflow instead of under the tank. Also the closed loop will go away and I will block off the bulkheads it uses. This means no more plumbing under the tank, and all flow via the single pump. I will put the heaters and the ATO in the overflow box so it'll all be hidden from view. The second bulkhead I will likely screen off and use as an emergency high level drain in case the ATO fails, and/or for automated water changes (force the ATO on for X amount of time and let the excess drain off).

The Dart is rated at something like 3,600 gph and will be operating at essentially zero head. I'm guessing I will have to valve it back since I probably won't want that much flow in a planted tank. I was thinking about a spray bar at first, but I'd rather just have a single outlet and let the momentum from the flow create a gyre inside the aquarium.

I'll cover CO2 now to get it out of the way. I have a 20lb tank, regulator, needle valve, bubble counter, etc. that I saved from my earlier planted tank adventures, so I will just re-use them. I have one of those typical flower-shaped ceramic diffusers but I'm guessing that won't work well in a system this large. I'm considering just running the CO2 into the input for the Dart but I'm guessing that won't work well either and it'll probably just burp large bubbles. Maybe a small needlewheel pump to chop it up and inject it into the Dart's intake?

Thoughts on any of this?


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## O2surplus (Jan 31, 2010)

I'm managing a 225 gallon system, so I've got a good idea of what you're up against. Getting enough plant mass into the tank to create "balanced" conditions right off the bat is difficult/expensive with such a large tank. I wouldn't recommend trying to fill it with 6" stems either. The labor time to plant it all and the on going maintenance trimming would quickly drive you crazy.
I've had a lot of success in the past, when starting out with only a small amount of plants, by employing "spot lighting". By keeping the lighting focused only on the plants that are in the tank and carefully controlling nutrient levels, nuisance algae won't invade the remaining tank space. You can probably rearrange some of your LED lighting to accomplish this.
Get your hands on as much Java Fern as possible. In my opinion , it's the best species to keep in large systems where low maintenance is desired. Most people claim that Java Fern is content with "low" light, and it is, but wait until you see the growth that occurs in "high" light conditions with proper nutrient levels and plenty of CO2! 
I've grown massive Java Ferns surrounded by carpets of Glossostigma at the same time and the ferns only required trimming once a year or so. The Ferns required so little maintenance that I got bored of them and sold them off. I could kick myself for that decision as now, I don't have the time needed to maintain all the stem plants that I replaced them with.


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## O2surplus (Jan 31, 2010)

All your base said:


> I'll cover CO2 now to get it out of the way. I have a 20lb tank, regulator, needle valve, bubble counter, etc. that I saved from my earlier planted tank adventures, so I will just re-use them. I have one of those typical flower-shaped ceramic diffusers but I'm guessing that won't work well in a system this large. I'm considering just running the CO2 into the input for the Dart but I'm guessing that won't work well either and it'll probably just burp large bubbles. Maybe a small needlewheel pump to chop it up and inject it into the Dart's intake?
> 
> Thoughts on any of this?


Maintaining adequate CO2 levels in a tank that large is going to be tricky.
You'll probably need to create a "reactor" of some sort and plumb it in to the system to be successful.
Going "Sumpless" will definitely help, as will reducing the overall flow rate through the system. Be sure to minimize any Air/Water mixing at your over flow too, as that will help prevent CO2 loss from the system.
Maybe you could keep the Coast to Coast? The CO2 reactor could be integrated into that. A simple high point in the piping could be made to act as a CO2 "bubble trap"and being that it's under the tank, the added head pressure would encourage the CO2 to saturate the water as it passes through the piping.
I don't have a sump on my tank either. My overflow boxes are plumbed directly into my return pumps and my CO2 is injected directly into my two OceanClear filters. The filters, by their inherent design, act as my CO2 reactors. The added 6' of head pressure on the filtration system helps to force the CO2 into saturation.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

My thought in mentioning the stem plants was just to get something in there that grew quickly. I definitely don't want a lot of stems longterm, though there are a few I may keep just because I really like them. I'm terrible with names so I don't even remember what they're called, though I recognize them on sight.

Part of my master plan for this system is to ditch the built in "canopy" above the tank in favor of a suspended lighting unit, in order to allow emersed growth to be observed. It's obliterated in the photo I posted above, but that planted 60g I had featured a lot of cool emersed growth, I want that on this system, too. Just on a larger scale.  I'm thinking also about some riparium planters along the end that butts up against the wall (the end with the overflow box).

The issue with this desire is that as the tank sits right now, the water surface is pretty much at my eye level (and behind a 4" plywood rim). So even if I tear the hood off, only REALLY TALL people will be able to enjoy the emersive growth. So I'm thinking about tearing the whole thing down and rebuilding it with a shorter stand.

Hey, drywall is cheap. :lol:


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## O2surplus (Jan 31, 2010)

All your base said:


> My thought in mentioning the stem plants was just to get something in there that grew quickly. I definitely don't want a lot of stems longterm, though there are a few I may keep just because I really like them. I'm terrible with names so I don't even remember what they're called, though I recognize them on sight.
> 
> Part of my master plan for this system is to ditch the built in "canopy" above the tank in favor of a suspended lighting unit, in order to allow emersed growth to be observed. It's obliterated in the photo I posted above, but that planted 60g I had featured a lot of cool emersed growth, I want that on this system, too. Just on a larger scale.  I'm thinking also about some riparium planters along the end that butts up against the wall (the end with the overflow box).
> 
> ...


Oh boy, here we go again! Drywall's cheap- so's a step ladder! LOL 
It's your tank after all, so I'm just watching to see what you come up with.
Just do yourself a favor and don't consult "Kcress" about this. He'd immediately start running load calcs for a system of under tank "screw jacks" and "cheap" will fly out the window. LOL


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Keith is among my idols when it comes to DIY! I really am serious about keeping it simple for this system though so I won't be copying any of his awesome projects.

I don't mind the construction work up front to get it the way I want, especially since it'll be a one-time effort. Plus, tearing it down will give me the opportunity to do something different with the space underneath the tank. Right now it's full thanks to stuff that is all going away or getting moved (return pump, closed loop pump, sump, etc.). I may do built in shelves or something like that this time around.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

All your base said:


> I really am serious about keeping it simple


Then check out the El Natural section at APC.


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## O2surplus (Jan 31, 2010)

All your base said:


> Keith is among my idols when it comes to DIY! I really am serious about keeping it simple for this system though so I won't be copying any of his awesome projects.
> 
> I don't mind the construction work up front to get it the way I want, especially since it'll be a one-time effort. Plus, tearing it down will give me the opportunity to do something different with the space underneath the tank. Right now it's full thanks to stuff that is all going away or getting moved (return pump, closed loop pump, sump, etc.). I may do built in shelves or something like that this time around.


LOL- I'm just ribbing you with the "Kcress" bit. I understand that you want to keep this set up simple. I like the idea of lowering the tank and making provisions for emerged growth. The added growth above the water line will make the tank appear more like an indoor pond with a viewing window, rather than just another fish tank. Very cool.
I can tell from your previous projects that you're patient and very thorough in the planning stages, so when it comes to project execution, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be successful with this endeavor.:smile:


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Hilde said:


> Then check out the El Natural section at APC.


I've been lurking in there for years. This system will feature some elements of El Natural.

On the whole though I really don't find it effective, personally, to subscribe to a particular method verbatim. The systems I've been happiest with have always been the ones where I concerned myself with doing what I found to be effective for a given set of criteria, rather than following a prescribed method.

I will likely be doing a soil substrate in this system, so that at least will be "El Natural" in style. I will probably have more light than most El Natural tanks, and I'll probably be adding ferts from time to time. And I'll have CO2.



O2surplus said:


> I can tell from your previous projects that you're patient and very thorough in the planning stages, so when it comes to project execution, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be successful with this endeavor.:smile:


Ha, that's amusing - the strongest self criticism I would have of myself would be that I rush into things too quickly without adequate foresight. Though I think a more accurate statement would be that I tend to over-think some details and not even plan other details at even a high level. Honestly, the time it'll take to re-do the "install" of the tank itself at a lower height will be good, because it'll force me to think the rest of the system through while I'm waiting for the construction work to complete.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

All your base said:


> On the whole though I really don't find it effective, personally, to subscribe to a particular method verbatim.


I agree too. The basic idea of having dirt is great though. I use reptile coconut bark on the bottom. Thus the sand I top the dirt mixture doesn't get compressed.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Definitely going to have some soil in there. I'm debating the cap though. I'd like something dark. Seems hard to find dark, cheap sand. Thought about blasting grit, but I don't know if I want to risk scratching the glass (it's an abrasive after all). I've done plenty of turface in the past (or whatever other fired clay soil product I could find) and I liked it, except for how "light" it is which makes it hard to plant...


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Very impressive build. I went through a lot of it on your link before I saw you had a lot of it here. 

One thing I thought about when reading your thread regarding noise. You may want to google "Owens Corning 703 acoustic panels". I had the idea since you have so much room. It will not soundproof, just absorb some noise. You could use some acoustic foam on top of that which will absorb some higher frequencies. This stuff is way better than off the shelf stuff you would find at a hardware store but the sump area would have to be completely sealed as well to be actually sound proof. Never done this myself on an aquarium but I use them in my studio's I have built over the years.

I can't give too much advice here as my biggest tank has been a 29 gallon. I think a medium light (maybe on the lower end of medium light) would work well for what you sound like you are trying to achieve with CO2 and soil could work really well. Just be aware that soil can leach a lot of nutrients at first so it's something that can take time to get right since it can go from having excess nutrients in the water column to not very much in a fairly short period of time. It also leaches tannins for awhile if you care about that.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Not worried about sound this time around as the biggest contributors to noise are all going away. Hurrah! Thanks for the info though, I'll tuck it away in case I ever need it.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Well there's a BIT of progress. I bought a package of plants from a user on here and they arrived yesterday. Nice variety and quality. They're planted in a temporary tank in the dungeon basement until the big system is ready. I figured this gives me a chance to get my green thumb back and experiment with some options before setting up the monster and potentially making a mistake. And, growing some things out ahead of time will prevent the problem of not having "enough" plant stock on hand.

One of the things I want to experiment with is substrate choice. One of the factors I'm most interested in is what I'd call "ease of use" given the size/scale of the tank. Most of the planted systems I've had in the past have been fired clay substrates (whatever the athletic field product of the day was - soilmaster select or turface I think). Anyways I liked everything about it except the fact that it was SOOO light (in weight) that everything floated out. Given the size of this system I am not going to buy anything marketed within the aquarium hobby, I don't want to pay $1/pound for substrate if I can get it for a few cents a pound.

Well, when the plants got here, all I had on hand was an old bag of that athletic field stuff, so I used it. Since I am planning on experimenting with substrate I want it to be "modular" in this temporary tank so I put it in some of those plastic produce containers you get lettuce or spinach in, then put them on the bottom of the tank, planted, and filled the tank with water.

EVERYTHING had floated out within about 10 minutes. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Back to the drawing board. Next up, I think I'll try MGOCPM capped with black diamond blasting grit. Hopefully the grit is heavier and things won't float out.

If anyone has ideas for cheap, dark substrate that can be used as a cap for soil, or on it's own, and is easy to plant (plants don't float out), please let me know!

Also discovered that my old CO2 rig doesn't work, sounds like the solenoid is stuck closed as no gas comes out and there's no click when I plug it in. Off to ebay...


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

All your base said:


> Back to the drawing board. Next up, I think I'll try MGOCPM capped with black diamond blasting grit..


I am planning on using the black diamond blasting grit in a 20G. Can't wait to here how it works. Wondering how much rinsing it needs.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

MGOCPM isn't much better than peat moss and will make a mess if you try to rescape. I'd suggest regular dirt with a sand cap. Or MTS if you want to spend the time on it. With the limited overhead space you have it seems to me you'll need the least maintenance substrate as possible. ADA or any other made-for-purpose substrate would cost an arm and a leg for that tank.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

thelub said:


> I'd suggest regular dirt with a sand cap.


Sorry for the obvious ignorance, but what do you mean by regular dirt? Like, digging up my lawn?  Or, purchasing topsoil or some other product?




> Or MTS if you want to spend the time on it.


I've skimmed the thread. Not really interested. I could see myself doing it if it was for a tank small enough to fit the MTS in a reasonable bucket or bin, but for this tank it would take a garage full of bins...



> ADA or any other made-for-purpose substrate would cost an arm and a leg for that tank.


Yup. It's not that I don't have the money, it's more that I don't think it's worth it if I can get a suitable product for cheaper. And I think I can, I just have to find it.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

Yep. Dirt dirt. Diana Walstad famously did it. Dogfish has done an impressively gross version of it. I found a 'topsoil' at HD that I think I will be using in my big tank. If I can find some certifiably pesticide free dirt somewhere I'll use that too. I've heard some guys used mud out of their backyard pond (I wouldn't. Too many unwanted little pests).


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

What kinda sand are you going to cap with? I really want something dark.

I did a trial run with the MGOCPM and I was disappointed. It seemed to just disintegrate. Maybe I filled the container with water too quickly (I was filling it by siphoning through an airline, about as slow as possible I think) but it seemed like more than half of the product ended up as floating scum.

I did get some time last night to work on some odds and ends again and took some pictures. Here's the driftwood I have accumulated:










The white pieces towards the back are "filler" pieces from Blooms and Branches. They're nice and all but very twiggy, and they appear to be more or less fresh cuttings from living trees, which makes me nervous. I will soak them for a while before using them to make sure they're cleaned out. It seemed like a bargain (eight 24" pieces for around $50 shipped) but honestly unless someone wants twiggy stuff I would not recommend it.

The smaller dark pieces towards the front are from Tom Barr. A friend of mine bought them from him a few years ago and isn't using them, so he donated to the cause. They're nice shapes, for sure. And they actually look like real seasoned driftwood, though I'm honestly not sure if that's the way Tom shipped them, or if they got like that after being in my friend's tank for a while.

Then, there's THE BEAST. The Monster. The single biggest piece of driftwood I've ever owned. This is big enough to be a lawn ornament. It's the piece I mentioned above, which I bought at a local fish auction. The price was VERY very cheap compared to what large driftwood sells for in the LFS or online. I'm pretty sure it's because it's so big - there probably weren't many people at the auction who could actually use it. To give an idea of the size, it took me a good 5 or 10 minutes to figure out how to fit it in my car to bring it home. Granted, I drive a small car, but I had the back seats folded down and the passenger seat all the way forwards, and it still barely fit.

Also snapped a photo of my poorly implemented holding tank:










You can see the plants have, again, mostly floated out of the substrate. GRRR!

I also got the solenoid I bought for the CO2 system. It came in a box that looked older than me:










It's not one of the hallowed brands typically mentioned on these forums, but the specs are correct for this application and it's definitely solidly built.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

Nice driftwood pieces!!

I"m currently using pool filter sand on top of my peat moss substrate, but in the future I will be going with something darker. The off white washes all the colors out. I like black diamond blasting grit, but I can't find any locally, so I'd have to ship it in. (Pretty expensive for a big tank)

I wouldn't recommend the "black sand" that is sold at petco. I bought a small bag of the stuff for a nano tank and it STINKS of chemicals. Almost gave me a headache just cutting open the bad. Its not actual black sand, they just paint the stuff, and I'm starting to think that is part of the reason why my nano tank isn't looking well ATM.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

All your base said:


> Sorry for the obvious ignorance, but what do you mean by regular dirt? Like, digging up my lawn?  Or, purchasing topsoil or some other product?


If you are out in the country you can use dirt outside which has never been sprayed with out any products. You just want to bake it in the sun. If you buy dirt you want to make certain it doesn't have any nitrates or animal by products. Read about 1 whom used plant potting dirt from a dollar store. Many use Miracle Organic Potting soil. I read that ACE hardware store has good top soil without bark in it. I use Scott's top soil. Have to sift the bark out using a colander, though.


All your base said:


> I did a trial run with the MGOCPM and I was disappointed. It seemed to just disintegrate. Maybe I filled the container with water too quickly


Best way to fill a tank is to put some plastic over it and then fill slowly using a pitcher. Saw someone doing a tank on line so.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

thelub said:


> I like black diamond blasting grit, but I can't find any locally.


Grainger Industrial Supply Co carries it. They have many stores in Washington.

I have used river sand from a landscaper


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

Seriously? I thought I scoured the pages of Grainger with no luck finding blasting grit. Thanks Hilde!


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

More progress. The tank is drained and mostly clean.

I've been keeping it running with livestock that I owed to a few friends, trying to get everyone's schedules aligned. That finally happened so Saturday morning the work began. I wish I had taken pictures but I was more concerned with moving the dozen or so fish and 30 or 40 corals that still remained in the system.

Bright and early I shut everything down and started a siphon to drain the water (with a normal garden hose, it takes a good hour and a half or so). Started a second siphon to fill buckets. As it drained I removed the corals and few pieces of rock that were left.

Once it was down to about 6" of water left (so, about 90 gallons!) the real fun began.  I took off my socks and climbed in the tank. With a net in each hand I was able to corner and capture the fish.

The most interesting part was turning over the low, flat rock that my pistol shrimp had been tunneling through and building up daily for almost two years. It's about 18" across and the whole rock is just a maze of tunnels:










Anyways once the livestock was out I drained the rest of the water, scooped out the sand, drained the sump, and called it quits for the day. That was about 6 AM to about 3 PM. And left me with an empty, but dirty tank.

Anyone who has kept marine systems will know my next problem. Coraline algae. Lots of it. And it's not like I can take this tank out to the driveway to hose it out. So I did the next best thing. Brought the hose to the tank. 

I've used vinegar and scraping tools in the past but just due to the sheer immensity of this beast I didn't want something that tedious. So I kicked it up a notch and bought some dilute HCL (muriatic acid). I bought a brand marketed as "low odor" which basically means it's sold diluted compared to what you'd typically buy. Of course they charge the same amount. But that's OK with me, because I was going to dilute it anyways and I'd rather buy it already partially diluted vs. full strength and dangerous.

My method of attack was to put about 2" of water into the bottom of the tank to allow for diluting acid as I worked. Then I put a 50:50 mix of the acid and plain water in a spray bottle that could shoot a cohesive stream (instead of anything resembling a mist - I wanted to reduce the amount of acid that was floating in the air). I sprayed down each wall, then went back and scrubbed with a natural bristle brush on a long handle. This worked incredibly well - the coraline just melted, and the brush was more to just push it down into the water rather than having to actually scrub. Other than a few very tenuous spots, it was more or less clean in about an hour.

Then I used the hose to put about 120 gallons into the tank, rinsing everything down, before siphoning it all back out.

So the tank is mostly clean now. As I have been prepping I've been rethinking some of my plans. Earlier I mentioned how I was thinking of converting to an open-top in order to allow emersive growth and potentially some riparium-like plantings. Now, I'm not so sure I want to do that. Mostly because of our cat, who I happen to like almost as much as aquariums. I'm pretty sure she'd be up on top of the tank, reaching into it, every chance she got. She's feisty and (unfortunately, in this case) actually seems to LIKE water, so there's nothing to deter her from making a mess of an open-topped tank. So I'm starting to think I'll have to scrap that whole idea and just leave the structure as-is.

The good news is, that means I can cut several weeks out of the schedule.  More to come...


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

To help with the sense of scale, here I am after just netting the fish and finishing the drain-down:










Even with poor light and dirty glass you can see that the side and back walls were nearly black with coraline!


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## Clemsons2k (May 31, 2009)

That IS a beast if you can just walk around in it like that  . Nice strategy to catch everything.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

The last time I emptied it (to repair a brace) I did the same thing, only a friend got in with me. Took a few more minutes this time but honestly it's the only way I would de-fish a tank this big. Trying to net the fish when it's full is beyond futile (trust me, I've tried). When you climb in with only 5 or 6" of water in it, they all tend to just hide in the corners and you can just scoop them out. I ended up scooping a few of them by hand to avoid net tangles. It's actually kind of fun. Reminds me of hunting the tidepools while vacationing on the coast as a kid.


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

This is an awesome build! I look forward to seeing it with the planting started.



All your base said:


>


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

hydrophyte said:


> This is an awesome build! I look forward to seeing it with the planting started.


Thanks!

This is the system I was going to use some of those riparium-suitable seeds you sold me on, but now that I'm leaning towards leaving the built-in canopy there instead of converting to open-topped, I may not have the chance to. At least, not in a way that's readily apparent. I'm thinking about still planting some things riparium-style and having some emersive growth, but you'd have to take off the access panels to see them. It would be a cool little hidden surprise.

Another option would be to only fill the tank part-way and do more of a paludarium arrangement, where the above-water stuff was visible through the front glass, but given that it's already somewhat shallow relative to the width and length I'm not sure I want to lose any more height.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

More cleaning today. Also, I needed to get some creative juices out so I made a bunch of dollar store wabi-kusa. If they turn out well I'll post some photos, right now the plants are all a little unhappy!


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

No progress but I did upload some photos.

Here is one of the dollar store wabikusa I made to keep myself busy:










I made the ball itself from topsoil and moss bought in the floral arrangement section of the dollar store. Wrapped with raffia, also from the floral arrangement section. Then I "planted" it with some java moss and random stems and put it in a tiny glass bowl from the dollar store with some pea gravel from our patio. We'll see how it does. Fun project anyways.

This is the extent of the plumbing on the tank:










It is so nice to not have $300 invested in PVC this time around. As a reef system this thing had close to 40 feet of 1.5" and 2" PVC on/around it. Now it's more like 5'.

From inside the tank, showing the old overflow box which will be converted to an in-tank filter:










Basically the water will overflow into this box, then be sucked through the slotted pipe horizontal at the bottom, out to the external pump, and back up over the rim via the return plumbing. I plan on filling the box with bio media (thread here if anyone has ideas on media).

The overflow box had two bulkheads in it for use as a Herbie drain when it was a reef tank. Now I am using one for the return pump as described. For the other hole, I am incorporating an "automatic" topoff/water change system. I've done many variations on this in past tanks, this is my favorite - because it's so simple. Inside the box, there's an elbow pointing upwards, with a strainer on the top. The opening on this strainer is a hair above where I want the water level in the tank. Outside the tank, on the other side of this bulkhead, the PVC is reduced down to a hose fitting, and I have a hose running to a french drain outside the house through the basement rafters. Effectively, this means any "extra" water will drain through this hose. So, I can handle topoff AND water changes by running a single supply line into the tank, with a solenoid on a timer, from the water supply in the basement. The timer will be set to add enough water for evaporation topoff, plus a little more, so it will basically cause a minute water change every time it runs.

You can barely see the strainer on the bulkhead in that picture. Unfortunately the whole arrangement is partially underneath the 4" wide plywood tank rim so there isn't much room. No commercially available strainers were small enough to fit on top of the elbow without hitting the rim of the tank, so I made my own:










PS - I mentioned a basement water supply for the water change/topoff. I have an RO/DI unit from when this thing was a reef tank. I plan on taking off the RO and DI, and just running supply water through the sediment and carbon blocks, which should at least pull out nasty stuff (chlorine, sediment, etc.). All of my past FW tanks have just used straight tap water for topoff and changes, with dechlorinator.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Things have been more or less on hold thanks to some traveling and other activities. But the plants in the temp tank are doing very well (despite almost completely ignoring them - I peek down there once a week, that's all the attention they get!).

I'm starting to think about plant stock ideas again. Anyone have suggestions? I want things that are on-scale with the tank (i.e. large) and things definitely need to be able to survive without the highest-light, highest-tech support system...

I already have some crypts (gecko, wendtii bronze and green), amazon swords, klenier bar swords, unknown anubias, java moss, java ferns, and a bunch of random stems.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

I suggest at least some hygro sunset. Its beautiful and very low tech. It gets even prettier under high light situations. It illegal to sell across state lines due to its noxious weed status, but I know there are a few members in NY that have it. It starts very easily from clippings. I've also have it grow out of the water and start to gro emersed.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

I had hygro sunset in the 60g planted tank I posted near the beginning of the thread, I did like it. Is it OK under less light?

Thinking about giant hygro, too.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

All your base said:


> I had hygro sunset in the 60g planted tank I posted near the beginning of the thread, I did like it. Is it OK under less light?
> 
> Thinking about giant hygro, too.


Neither need much light at all but both color up under higher light (pink and orange respectively).


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

My sunset grows like the devil under low light (2 T12 bulbs) but doesn't color pink until it reaches the surface close to the light.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Well I am now the proud owner of 240 lbs of safe-t-sorb and a few bags of topsoil so it is starting to look like things will get moving again. 

Anyone have cheap ideas for plant weights? I can't stomach paying retail for them from a fish store. I'm wondering if solid core solder would be safe (penny per weight vs 20 cents per weight!)


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

How about supergluing them to rocks just like you do with frags? I would be worried that solder would leech something into the water column.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Many of the plants won't be anywhere near rocks.

Googling terms like "solder aquarium plant weights" brings up mostly people who are guessing, plus a handful of people who say they've done it without problems. Though I did find one person who claims he did it and it instantly killed his whole tank...

Clearly you'd want to use solder without flux. The next question is, what alloy? Of the people who claimed they have done it successfully, it seems there's a divide between classic lead solder and lead free.

I realize I'm probably making a big deal out of a few bucks, but it kills me to pay 5 - 10 times more for something just because it's been repackaged for a specific hobby. Yes, plant weights are $2.50 for 12, which is cheap, but solder is a fraction of the price and I already have pounds of it in different flavors.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

How about smaller stones that will hide under the substrate? Since you're using kitty litter and soil, once the root systems develop, the plants will stay down.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

IME plant weights are only necessary if the substrate is really shallow, or the plant is just really stubborn. If you bury a bit of the plant using tweezers, my guess is that you won't need as many plant weights as you might think.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Substrate is in!


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## aaronbrown (Apr 13, 2010)

all i can say is im jealous ive been wanting a super large tank since i got into aquariums when i was a kid


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Playing with the rocks.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Close up of the formation on the left. For a sense of scale, this is much bigger than a basketball.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

FWIW this is all local shale/slate. And by local, I mean from my back yard.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

aaronbrown said:


> all i can say is im jealous ive been wanting a super large tank since i got into aquariums when i was a kid


Stick to your dreams! This tank existed in my head for many years before I took the first step towards building it.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Partial driftwood layout:










More driftwood:










I can't decide if I like the really twiggy stuff on the right side. It's supposed to look like a tree fell down and the tips of it's branches are in the water. Also I am hoping it helps obscure the filter box and plumbing return.

Also these photos show off the flexibility of the LED lighting.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Wow. Coming right along and very nicely too.

The twiggy stuff does do a good job of obscuring the overflow box. Usually we stick to one type of wood in a scape but I like the way this looks. A lot. 

I am all about local stuff too, really like the rock work and how it is tied to the wood.

What does the tank look like through the other windows?


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Kathyy said:


> Wow. Coming right along and very nicely too.
> 
> The twiggy stuff does do a good job of obscuring the overflow box. Usually we stick to one type of wood in a scape but I like the way this looks. A lot.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I am very happy with how it came together. It was one of those things where I had a mental image but I wasn't sure how it would play out in real life. There are a handful of tanks on here that have been direct inspirations, and yours is on that list. I love the whole "gnarled driftwood on top of a pile of rocks" look.

I'm starting to firm up the plant list. I am probably going to bias a bit towards fast growers in the beginning to keep things under control but long term I am leaning more towards low-maintenance. I am still going to do some "hi tech" things (CO2) but I don't want a ton of work.

I'll try to take some pictures through the other windows tonight!


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Just placed a plant order with a new vendor for the following:

Anubias barteri var. barteri
Cryptocoryne pontederifolia
Microsorium pteropus
Ceratopteris thalictroides
Echinodorus amazon
Echinodorus cordifolius 'Marble Queen'
Nymphaea stellata
Hygrophila salicifolia
Hygrophila corymbosa 'narrow leaf"
Ludwigia repens

Between this and what I have in the growout tank I should have enough to get things started. Probably some time next week. It's getting very real all of a sudden.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

Its amusing to read an ex reefer journal a planted tank. :hihi:

You're doing very well and I like the look you're going for. I think you're doing a bangup job creating your vision. I think once its grown in it will look very nice. I'd love to see what hygro sunset would look like under those lights. You might be able to get the whole plant to turn pink with that level of lights.

I agree with Kathy, we need shots from the small windows!


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

thelub said:


> Its amusing to read an ex reefer journal a planted tank. :hihi:


That's funny 'cause the local reef community says to me it's amusing to see someone in to planted tanks try to do a reef tank. 




> You're doing very well and I like the look you're going for. I think you're doing a bangup job creating your vision. I think once its grown in it will look very nice. I'd love to see what hygro sunset would look like under those lights. You might be able to get the whole plant to turn pink with that level of lights.
> 
> I agree with Kathy, we need shots from the small windows!


I'm gonna keep an eye out for the sunset hygro for sure. I'm honestly not sure what to think about the lights. The fact that they were a fair amount for a reef tank makes them seem REALLY bright for a planted tank by conventional wisdom, but when I look at tools within the planted community designed to estimate LED lighting it comes out on the weak end. I think part of it is, sometimes the tools aren't designed to work under certain conditions (my tank has a big footprint which means "overlap" happens more, and I'm only lighting portions of it, on purpose, not the whole thing).

I forgot to take pictures through the other windows last night, will give it a shot tonight.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

The scape looks great, though I prefer it without the twiggy branches, IMO.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

I am divided on the twiggy stuff...

I turned the pump way up just to see how it looked and made a little dust storm but here are some pics:

Front:










Walking around the end:










End:










Back:


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Now that the hardscape is more or less done, and the initial plants are out of the way, I am taking another stab at choosing fish.

I don't want a billion different species, I'd like to stick to one or two species in each of a few categories:

1) Large number of open water schooling fish. Probably will go with giant danios.
2) Small number of interesting open water fish. No solid ideas here. Angels? Rams? Gouramis?
3) Interesting medium-large-ish bottom fish. Pleco? Been there, done that. Any ideas? community safe catfish?
4) Interesting small bottom fish. Ottos or cory cats probably

Thoughts?


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## Redtail84 (Nov 27, 2012)

Pictus cats are great. They like to be in groups, and they have a lot of personality.


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## MikeP_123 (Aug 31, 2008)

Loaches are the most interesting and social schooling bottom fish I have ever run into. Soooo much fun and there are plenty to choose from. Clown loaches look great and get big. Angelicus Loaches are absolutely stunning, and dont get too big at all (not sure if you want a smaller group of big fish or a huge group of smaller fish) oh and they eat small pesty snails. After many years of looking for nice bottom fish, most of them ending up being nocturnal (no fun), I settled with the Angelicus Loaches due to them not fearing the light. Hope that helps!

Ps most catfish are indeed nocturnal so you may not get to see them in all their glory.


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## farrenator (May 11, 2011)

Rainbowfish! They are very active, hardy, spectacular looking - especially when they display.

Visit rainbow-fish.org and then bang your head on the wall when you find out it is very difficult to get all the great species you have just seen.



All your base said:


> 2) Small number of interesting open water fish. No solid ideas here. Angels? Rams? Gouramis?
> Thoughts?


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## Aquaticus (Jan 7, 2013)

Rainbowfish awesome! Definitely be a good choice, and prettier (and more expensive) than danios. A large group of serpae or red minor tetras would also be great, and they add some permanent color to the aquarium. They aren't really a schooling fish, but they interact a lot with each other.

For some medium sized catfish, I'd go with bristlenoses. They get fairly big, are active during the day, are fun to feed (zucchini, vegetables), eat algae, and are so easy to breed. Males guard the fry. They will nibble on plants if they are hungry, but with fast growth rates, I don't notice it.

A dwarf cichlid would be cool. A dozen kribs? I've got some Apistograma cacuatoides that are also very cool.

Best of luck!


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

Otos are a good CUC. They stay pretty small. Pictus catfish will be your best bet for a cat that won't grow HUGE. I'm burned out on plecos. They are always messy and leave LOTS of poop around no matter which kind you get. The smaller species like bristlenose don't get big, but they're still messy. Must have a school of corys. They are very social and go well with just about anything. Some nice angels would do well in that tank. I like the blue zebras myself. Apistogrammas would be really nice to. There are some harder to find species (sp. hongsloi) that are beautiful. 

Rainbows are nice, but they're kinda funny looking IMO especially when they are adults. They are VERY active though and will be all over that tank all the time. I like bosmani rainbows the best. Rams are always a good choice and they're very friendly. Mine haven't quite ate out of my hands yet, but a lot of ram owners have gotten theirs to eat out of the hand.


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## jbrady33 (Jun 7, 2012)

A huge group of Cory cats would be a lot of fun to watch. 

I know this would be against the 'simple and easier' idea, but can you imagine a big school of wild/henkle type discus in that thing, with a giant cloud of cardinals?!

Plants: some of those criniums (spelling?) that get huge long crinkled leaves and flower would be cool. Some crypt balanese and sprialis too


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## thebuddha (Jul 16, 2012)

All your base said:


> Now that the hardscape is more or less done, and the initial plants are out of the way, I am taking another stab at choosing fish.
> 
> I don't want a billion different species, I'd like to stick to one or two species in each of a few categories:
> 
> ...


You should get some long-fin bristlenose plecos. They look really cool, the only problem is they would probably try and hide in your wood and they poop a lot. They only get around 4-5" long. 

a couple of pairs of rams would look really cool in there!


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## JoeandCarrie (Oct 26, 2012)

a couple thousand shrimp would look great in there


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Rams, group of cory cats, and possibly longfin BN plecos are all on the shortlist.

ARRRGGGGGG why did someone have to mention discus?  I like the idea very much except (having never kept them) I have the perception that they are "difficult" and require a lot of attention, plus possibly tank conditions the rest of my stuff might not like (i.e. really warm water).


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

I'm not used to being this indecisive. Now I'm starting to think about angels as a good compromise between Discus (being "too difficult") and lesser fish.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

Dude, you've kept a reef tank. That pretty much assures that you can keep discus. Especially if you have an RO/DI unit. Adults are a lot less finicky than juvies are.

There are some really nice angels out there. I've fallen in love with my blue zebras. Here's a crummy phone pic that doesn't do it justice.


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## jbrady33 (Jun 7, 2012)

Unless I am mistaken, you already have everything you need for discus that scares away us lesser mortals 

Soft, low ph water - you have RO unit
Stable, large water volume - that thing is how many umpteen hundreds of gallons?
Constant water changes (for 0 nitrates and growth limiting hormone removal - you have auto top off & change.
Stable warm water (mid 80s) - I'm sure your reef stuff can do it 

The only things left is feeding, I've always understood that they eat flake but thrive if supplemented with frozen bloodworms and what not - still sounds a lot less complicated than feeding a reef

Cost could be high initially, last time i checked it was $30 a fish to start :O

On the plus side, both discus and cardinals to keep them company are brightly colored AND reflective, so will show up really well even in the back of the tank.

The natural/wild type are just so cool looking to, with the dark banding and blue patterning. Plus you'd get babies! 

http://m792.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/FishVixen/wilddiscus.jpg.html

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&...GR6oDwDA&ved=0CAkQsAQ&q=discus fish&tbm=isch#


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

I'm going to pretend I don't see the pro-discus posts for now. 

It looks like the first inhabitants are already there. Mosquito larvae. They must have hitch hiked in with the driftwood. Oh well, it's getting drained tonight or tomorrow for the first round of planting.  Maybe I'll get a few cheap hardy fish to keep the wiggler population down until I decide on "real" fish.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Also, let me qualify my "too difficult" comment - I'm sure I could keep discus successfully. I'm not concerned about killing fish, I'm concerned about the stress and level of effort...

I sold the RO membrane and DI off my RO/DI unit, so now it's just a three stage filter (sediment, carbon, carbon). I really don't like RO as a technology (it's costly and wasteful) and I don't think I need it as my tap is pretty moderate in most parameters.

I did manage to get my hands on a solenoid for the auto topoff/water change system, which is the last piece of equipment I need to install. It's feeling great to have things this far along but also kind of anticlimactic in a way. I mean, this was just SO easy.


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## jbrady33 (Jun 7, 2012)

All your base said:


> kind of anticlimactic in a way. I mean, this was just SO easy.


I think your 'hardest' task i going to be keeping the plants trimmed - which is kinds fun in it's own way - trims = more plants to fill in or RAOK out! :smile:


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Once things are established and the slow growing plants start to expand, I will rip out fast growing plants and let the slowpokes take over. Thus, eventually, I won't HAVE to trim all the time. This is what I did in the 60g I posted near the beginning of the thread and it seemed to work really well.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Plant order is here! Boight from a vendor called Neptune's Neighborhood. I have to say, prices were amazing. Plants aren't huge but are all in very, very nice shape. Clean, healthy, just look great. Did I mention how cheap they were?


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## jbrady33 (Jun 7, 2012)

Cool! You should consider some crypt balansae, retro, or spiralis in that back right 'no window' corner - an easy top to bottom forest!



> I'm going to pretend I don't see the pro-discus posts for now.


You cannot ignore the HypnoDiscus, *all hail the HypnoDiscus!*









-----------------------------*OBEY!*------------------------------


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

I do have some balansae but I was considering them midground plants, do they really get that tall? By the time you account for substrate and actual water height, the 24" height of the aquarium probably equates to about 20" of water depth.

Better not threaten me with hypnodiscus or I'll go do something brash like fill the tank with guppies. :lol:


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## jbrady33 (Jun 7, 2012)

I believe the balansae can get to 2 feet normally, some people have posted pics of it even longer! - definitely background  You can trim the tops like a haircut though.

With your huge floor space they would look cool in a clump back there

The HypnoDiscus does what he pleases, I have no control of it! :smile:


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Planting under way. It's a wee bit messy in there.










View from above:


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Planting is complete and things are settling in a bit. Water is still cloudy. I took some more poor quality cellphone photos.

The FTS:










Left to right across the front:




























Long end FTS and close up:



















Back window FTS and close up:



















I have the blue LEDs on a separate channel, and the whites split into two channels, so I can get some variation across the tank in terms of intensity as well as adjust different areas to get a wamer or cooler look (and, of course, fade to imitate sunrise/sunset as well as other dimming effects). Compare this with the first shot:










I am still not sure what I prefer. The reefkeeper in me likes the cooler, blue look. The planted FW enthusiast in me keeps whispering that it's supposed to be a lot warmer. At least I can change my mind by pushing buttons instead of swapping equipment. 

I definitely need to do a round two (at least) and replant. Most of the stems are just sorta plopped into empty spaces for now. And my favorite part is not really visible at all. I put a bunch of really nice swords (amazon and kliener bar) back behind the driftwood on the right end, and you can't see them at all from any angle. I may leave them there and see what it looks like grown in.

Also I have nothing that even resembles a carpet for the foreground. I'm hoping that at least one of the crypt species I have stays small, and I can just let it take over the foreground. If that doesn't work, does anyone have suggestions for a low-maintenance carpet? The area in question is fairly well lit.


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## Aquaticus (Jan 7, 2013)

Very cool!


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

CO2 ran out. And the tank is out of hydro. I guess that's what I get for pulling a 7 year old rig out of the closet and running it. 

I'm going to bring it to my usual gas supply place who swap tanks, and see if they'll swap it out of hydro.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Exciting to see this beast planted!


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Thanks. It's quite the milestone. I have to say, every day I am happier about my switch from reef to planted FW. I certainly enjoyed the reef and all, but this is just so much less stress.

And cheaper. My entire cost to convert (substrate, driftwood, plants, few plumbing and electrical odds and ends, test kits, fertilizers, fish) is going to be a tiny fraction of what the reef cost to set up. And ongoing operating costs are going to be much less, too.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

And, I am back in action with CO2. The local welding shop swapped the non-hydro'd tank, no questions asked. The tank they gave me has hydro dates going back to the early 1960's. I guess that says something about the durability of a steel tank. 

Last night I also finished rigging the auto topoff/auto water change system. This is probably my favorite part of the system because I think I've managed to hit the sweet spot of "simple yet effective." I've done all kinds of ATO and auto water change setups on marine tanks, but the flexibility of not having to maintain salinity means I can combine the two on this system.

I don't remember if I explained it in detail yet so here goes. In the basement below the tank, there's the remnant of my old RO/DI unit. Basically, just the prefilters - sediment, and two carbon blocks. This ensures the water has no sediment and really bad things (chlorine) are gone. A standard poly line runs from this filter up to the bottom of the stand, through a chaise I use for plumbing and wiring.

Inside the stand, the water supply line goes through a solenoid. The solenoid is on a timer. After the solenoid, the line runs up over the rim of the tank and is secured to the return plumbing from the main pump.

Inside the filter box (old overflow box), one of the 1.5" bulkheads in the wall of the tank is plumbed to a 90 that points straight up, with a very short length of straight pipe. This upwards-facing pipe terminates right where I want the water line in the box. It's covered with a home-made grille to keep fish/plants/filter media/whatever from getting in. On the outside of the tank, this bulkhead is connected to a standard hose bib that has a hose on it, which runs outside the house to a drain in the yard.

The solenoid on the water supply line is on a timer that I can set to run for a few minutes each day. I haven't dialed this in yet, but the eventual goal is to set it so it runs JUST longer than required to account for topoff. When it runs, the water level in the filter box rises. Once it hits the level of the drain, old water drains outside the house. 

With this design, I can account for evaporation, AND perform very small daily water changes, with nothing more than a timer and a solenoid. No float switches to run the ATO! No complications! If the solenoid sticks shut, I have probably 5 or 6 days before the main pump starts sucking air, no big deal. If the solenoid sticks open, no big deal, extra water just goes down the drain. If the drain partially clogs, well - it's got a whole day before the water supply runs again to drain the small "extra" water. If the drain clogs 100%, I will have probably a week or two before the "extra" water builds up enough to cause a spill. If the drain clogs 100% AND the solenoid sticks open, I've got probably 6 or 8 hours before a spill. These are acceptable levels of risk in my book, and way way less risk than most people with ATOs or auto water change functionality seem to have.

If I want a large water change, I can just override the timer and let it run for whatever interval I want. The water enters slowly enough that I'm not worried about matching temperature. I will NEVER have to deal with lugging buckets of water or hoses or any of the typical mess associated with water changes! If I did ever decide that I needed to siphon detritus from the substrate, I can just unscrew the drain hose and start a siphon in it, suck things out, then override the timer and let the tank refill.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

First fish are in! As of yesterday. Six otos, two red tail zebra sand loaches, one bushynose pleco baby. Figured I would start small.

Took about two hours of searching this morning with me and the kids, and we can find three otos, the loaches, and I finally got lucky and saw the pleco. I knew small camoflaged fish would blend in but man, this is hard work!

The lfs has a low tech planted 120, mostly crypts and anubias. They recently put a huge school of cardinals in. It looks AMAZING. One of the lamps in the florescent fixture is actinic, the fish practically glow. I've never seen an actinic lamp over FW like that. My RB LEDs would create a similar effect I bet. I may have to do a school of neons or cards after all.

Also I may take out the twiggy wood. I have been spending a bunch of effort trying to convince myself that I like it and I think it's time to give up.

PS, after putting the CO2 tank back on earlier in the week, my drop checker stayed blue. Spent a good while troubleshooting and found a kink in the line. Still no juice. Then realized the tank valve was closed.


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## O2surplus (Jan 31, 2010)

Your tank looks great. Give the java fern some time to settle in and it will really fill out in time. Definitely get some Cardinals, I've got a school of 200 or so in my tank and they look amazing under RGB Leds. As for a super "low maintenance carpet plant"- I recommend planting some Staurogyne Repens. It grows into a very tight thatch and stays low to the substrate. I've had some growing in my tank for nearly 2 years now and it's never needed a trim. Given enough time, it's going to carpet the whole tank.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

I don't think I have the open space to support a school of 200! When I was scaping I was firmly convinced that I would never be able to overfill a tank this big but I kinda think I did...


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## O2surplus (Jan 31, 2010)

Oh you'd be surprised how many small fish can go unnoticed in a large, heavily planted tank. I can probably only see 20% of the fish in my tank at any one time, and there's over 300 in there. Some of my fish go months between sightings. Just about the time I give them up for dead- they make a brief appearance at the front glass. LOL


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Well, pre-fish I have a few more things to nail down. I'm happy with CO2 being dialed in now. I basically set it up in what I thought would be a "temporary" way until I got some sort of official method set up (needlewheel pump or reactor or something) but this is working so I'm going to leave it. Basically, I took one of those el-cheapo ceramic disk diffusers and stuffed it up against the intake strainer for the main system pump. At this high a flow rate, the bubbles come out of that diffuser really big, but they all immediately get sucked through the pump. There are some microbubbles in the tank when it's on, but not a ton, and they don't really distract, so I'm OK with it. 

Also I just realized I never mentioned my final choice for filter media:

http://www.doitbest.com/Scouring+pads-Do+it+Best-model-10044-doitbest-sku-632989.dib

The pricing is confusing - you're paying $12 for a 12-pack of 8-packs of scrubbies. I bought two. So I have 196. I left out two 8-packs, so I have 176 scrubbies in the filter box. $24 for this much bio media is a really good price in my book. I don't really know if I trust or value the "surface area per unit volume" metric for bio media, but anecdotally these things sure look really good - they definitely have more surface than a bio-ball, that's for sure.

One of the remaining items is working out a fertilizer regime. I have dry chemicals for fertilizers - KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4, and CSM+B. As the tank sits naturally, water parameters are more or less as follows:

pH (CO2 off) ~7.6
pH (CO2 saturated, ~30ppm according to my drop checker) ~6.8 - 7.0
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
PO4: .3ppm
5 dKH

The filtered tapwater I'm doing topoff and changes with is generally close to these numbers.

Over the weekend I dosed a small amount of CSM+B and K2SO4 (I am leery of dosing lots of things I can't measure). I also dosed ~4 grams of KNO3. I think my approach will be to dose KNO3 until it hits a target of 10ppm. Then, let the tank sit for a few days and measure NO3 and PO4. Then, try to determine a useage rate based on how much the parameters dropped per day.

Once I know the daily consumption of NO3 and PO4, I will know how much KNO3 and KH2PO4 to dose.

That leaves CSM+B and K2SO4 up in the air. I am making some assumptions about the levels of K and traces: they are hard to test, accuracy is less important, and they're used in somewhat fixed ratios to N and P. So, my plan for choosing dose rates for CSM+B and K2SO4 is to look at what others are doing for dosing these two in proportion to N and P dosing, and then just copying that ratio.

I am hoping to dose once or twice a week. Small daily water changes as described above, probably with larger water changes on an infrequent basis.

Anyone see issues with this approach?


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

Dosing ferts like that isn't something I've done yet so I have no experience, but have you looked at the EI for dosing? Tom Barr has an excellent method that might help you get your dosing figured out.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

You can model your dosing and water change strategy here. http://calc.petalphile.com/

Dose the phosphate now too. It has a serious public relations image problem it doesn't deserve. Plants sparkle and GSA vanishes when it is used liberally.

I'd go the other way around and use EI at first. Once you see how plants do in the tank try reducing/increasing dosing. Don't look at tests to determine how much NPK the tank needs as some of your plants may look better with a lot more in there than seems reasonable according to a water test. I have gone through lots of algae plagues and usually plants aren't growing well then algae attacks. I've gotten rid of algae using NPK, never rid the tank of algae by withholding nutrients. Well, occasionally a black out has worked - light is a nutrient too.

I am all about numbers but have to go on hunches sometimes. I dosed more and more and upped the CO2 and light and still Rotala was stunted. On a hunch I put in a bit of GH booster. My tap water ought to have plenty of magnesium and calcium as I am in southern California but apparently not enough for Rotala. It doesn't stunt now and my snail shells are again healthy.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

I appreciate the feedback. It seems to me like part of the point of traditional EI is so you know you're not limiting plants but you don't have to test. I don't mind testing and honestly I don't care if the plants are limited. Tom seems to make a point often that algae issues are mostly linked to lighting, CO2, and ammonium, not fert dosing. If the only harm in getting ferts a bit wrong is slightly worse growth, I'm OK with that. One of the tenants of traditional EI is weekly 50% water changes, I am certainly not going to be doing that!

I am guessing that my method will get me close to what people would end up with by following the "hate water changes?" version of EI:

http://www.barrreport.com/showthrea...I-can-get-you-there-with-a-small-modification

In the end, once the slower plants have really taken off, I'm planning on pulling out most of the fast growers and reducing dosing, moving the whole tank towards a lower-maintenance approach anyways.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

So after roughly a week of fiddling with fertilizers I'm already testing my attention span. It's not the "difficulty" of the action, it's just the fact that _I have to do something every day_.  Yes I'm that lazy (told ya I got burned out on reefs). Regardless of which method I end up with, I'm starting to think about an auto doser...

Also I am no longer afraid of giant water changes, since I had the realization that I can effectively do a 50% water change by leaving my auto topoff running for about 20 hours, which can be accomplished with a timer. BRILLIANT! 

Also I am definitely getting an auto feeder if anyone has ideas on those.


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## jbrady33 (Jun 7, 2012)

The auto-doser sounds like a good idea - actually easier on a big tank like yours (in my mind) even if the dose is a little off or wahtever you have such a huge volume that it won't be a problem.

The auto top off whater change is very cool, you could could even leaving it throttled down to a slow stream and leave it running constantly. (Saw a youtube once of a guy who did a greenhouse style irrigation drip into his tank - could adjust anything from 100% a day to whatever percentage a day he wanted)

The auto feeders scare me (even though I have never used one) - too many stories of them clogging up and not feeding from the humidity.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Well, around 50 neons went in today. They look AMAZING under the LEDs. Even under the typical daylight setting which is fairly warm the RB LEDs just make them explode with color. Somehow a stray rummynose ended up tagging along too (not sure how, the LFS keeps neons all on their own.) He looks good too.

I am starting to think I should choose more red or blue fish to take advantage of the lighting.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

Pics or it didn't happen


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Excuse the quality. They refuse to sit still.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

You can see I have some sort of stringy diatom thing going on. I am siphoning it out when I get the chance and hoping it is just new tank syndrome. Also turned lights down a few percent over the worst area.


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

Looks good!


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## jbrady33 (Jun 7, 2012)

More small inexpensive fish suggestions if you like - the neons are great under LED, good choice!
Cherry barbs also make a really nice display, very vibrant red against plants. nice and active, the males love to display - besides chasing each other and the females mine will swim forward and quick stop with all their fins spread out like 'airbrakes' 
Rosy barbs are bigger bodied, very active. If you get the standard fin, metallic scaled kind the are really reflective and golden copper - but really stand out with the LED's reflecting off of them. The long finned variety are pretty but seems to have smaller scales - less reflective, just 'shiny'.


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## jbrady33 (Jun 7, 2012)

How about an even 1,000 chili rasboras?  

How's it coming along?


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

I guess I am way overdue for an update. Things have been progressing in a mostly good, sometimes frustrating manner, which I guess is the way it goes when you're dealing with living things. 

Anyways, right after my last update I got real busy and didn't dose ferts for a week. The slimy brown diatom-like growth went away. I dosed again, just for a day or two, the next week. It came back. Stopped dosing. It went away. So, guess what? No more fert dosing for me. Even after my treatise a few months ago on dosing theory, I had basically defaulted to EI dosing with a weekly water change. Now I've basically stopped both and things are happy, though growing a little slower. Which honestly is OK with me.

Then disaster struck. About a week ago my CO2 tank ran empty and spiked. It killed at least 30 or 40 of the neons, but the other fish all survived. So now I have a rather empty tank again. I really liked the neons so I may just restock with them, or whatever other small cheap fish the LFS has in stock. I really loved the whole "giant swarm of tiny fish" thing. That's something I never got with marine aquariums, so I think I'm going to stick with it in here.

That's pretty much it. I'll get a photo when I get a chance but it looks about the same, plus a LOT of growth. The tiger lotuses have done their usual thing and taken over with surface leaves, which I am going to leave for now since they look really cool and create a patchwork of light/dark areas which adds interest.

The tank is pretty much on auto pilot where all I'm doing is feeding, which is right where I want it. Summer is busy, and I have another hobby project gearing up, so I don't really have the time for a lot of maintenance anyways.

Oh, one last thing. I feel like I have to mention an indirect benefit of the tank's overall design/construction. The top is eurobraced with plywood, so of course it's opaque. This means there's essentially a shield around the rim that blocks light from hitting the sides of the tank. This in turn means the glass gets very little light, so it doesn't grow a film of algae. The tank has been wet for a few months now and I have yet to clean the glass ONE SINGLE TIME.


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

All your base said:


> I guess I am way overdue for an update. Things have been progressing in a mostly good, sometimes frustrating manner, which I guess is the way it goes when you're dealing with living things.
> 
> Anyways, right after my last update I got real busy and didn't dose ferts for a week. The slimy brown diatom-like growth went away. I dosed again, just for a day or two, the next week. It came back. Stopped dosing. It went away. So, guess what? No more fert dosing for me. Even after my treatise a few months ago on dosing theory, I had basically defaulted to EI dosing with a weekly water change. Now I've basically stopped both and things are happy, though growing a little slower. Which honestly is OK with me.
> 
> ...


you had a co2 tank dump? Did you have a dual-stage regulator?


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

andyl9063 said:


> you had a co2 tank dump? Did you have a dual-stage regulator?


Nope, cheapo single stage. Yes, I shoulda known better. This is the only reg I've ever used on planted tanks. In the past, when a CO2 tank dumped, it would spike the CO2 but not enough to actually do any harm. I had assumed that this very large aquarium with tons of surface area and a fair amount of surface agitation would be far more able to handle a CO2 dump without a dangerous CO2 spike but clearly I was wrong.


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

All your base said:


> Nope, cheapo single stage. Yes, I shoulda known better. This is the only reg I've ever used on planted tanks. In the past, when a CO2 tank dumped, it would spike the CO2 but not enough to actually do any harm. I had assumed that this very large aquarium with tons of surface area and a fair amount of surface agitation would be far more able to handle a CO2 dump without a dangerous CO2 spike but clearly I was wrong.


yeah, when you're dealing with a lot of livestock, its highly recommend lol.
Luckily it was only neons and not 10 discus....
but go for discus!!!!! i have it and they're awesome


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Honestly I am still baffled. I've had this same CO2 rig (tank, reg, needle valve, diffuser) on smaller tanks with poor surface agitation and when the tank dumped the fish would get a little loopy but no harm done. This tank is gigantic and very slow to react to CO2 changes - it takes a few hours to come up to concentration after the CO2 turns on. So I figured it wouldn't even notice a tank dump.

Maybe the neons I had were just extra sensitive or something? Anyways I am surprised. For now I'm just going to leave CO2 off as I don't care about explosive growth and I have no pest algae to speak of. If I do decide to start using it I'll probably spring for a dual stage reg. And maybe a bigger tank, or at least a second tank.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

All your base,

First off, I want to say your name gave me a good chuckle. I'm from the generation where that saying was one of the big deals. Love it!

Secondly, that's one hell of a system. I normally don't like a lot of DIY in an aquarium, but wow, what a sleek and well designed entire system. Well done!

Lastly, before I go back to read the thread , I once had a boss (reef hobbyist) at an aquatics shop who said "Reef tanks are the neon signs of the aquatics highway and planted tanks are the rest stops." after seeing what I did with the planted displays in the store. Your initial post about the "in your face-ness" of reefs reminded me of that. 

Now, to go read both (RC and TPT) build threads.

Regards,
Phil


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

All your base said:


> I got real busy and didn't dose ferts for a week. The slimy brown diatom-like growth went away. I dosed again, just for a day or two, the next week. Stopped dosing. It went away.


Plantbrain (Tom Barr) said that in low light tanks less nutrients are absorbed by the plants. Perhaps this is why you no longer need ferts. Which is good when you are busy.


All your base said:


> Maybe the neons I had were just extra sensitive or something?


I haven't been able to keep neon's alive in my tank. I read that others were having a problem with them, for they are not as hardy as they used to be.


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

Last few photos before the tank's next major shift in direction:


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## All your base (Dec 6, 2006)

No that is not a typo. 

The tank is very nice as-is but honestly it's not EXACTLY what I want. I've spent the last few weeks deliberating over what fish to replace the neons with and I've come to the realization that adding specific fish won't be what captures my attention. Let's just say I've grown too attached to emergent growth.


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## jbrady33 (Jun 7, 2012)

All your base said:


> Last few photos before the tank's next major shift in direction:


Clown puke gravel and the largest aquarium castle ever? With a bubble powered treasure chest and diver? :smile:


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Are you going to turn this into one gigantic terrarium/paludarium?


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

I vote paludarium with spitters


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## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

All your base,

I've been struggling with the same diatoms, long filamentous diatoms that come back just about every day. I do EI dosing. It really stunk for a while cleaning out gunk every other day, but its gotten alot better. Just a little gunk at the end of each week. Decreasing my obnoxious flow and increasing my co2 helped alot.


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## jbrady33 (Jun 7, 2012)

How's it going? Any updates?


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