# Can't Keep German Blue Rams Alive?



## redstar7t (Dec 3, 2015)

Hello

I was really looking forward to a GBR pair being apart of this 55 gallon community tank, but I can't keep them alive. I've tried 5 rams. The first male/female (unpaired) lived about three weeks before dying. I then got another male/female that were paired, and they lived for a couple months before dying. A couple months ago I got another male that I kept in quarantine for two months before he died (he died in quarantine). He was in quarantine for so long because he wouldn't warm up to me and was very skittish. Three of the five rams that died had this 'gasping syndrome' before death, where they would sit at the surface gasping for about a day before dying. 

My water parameters are always fine when they die, 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and about 20 or less nitrate. 

So I'm wondering if there's something with my water that just can't keep them alive? My pH is a little high, about 8, and my gH is also high, around 8. kH is 3, temperature for the 55 gallon is 80 degrees (sometimes fluctuates up to 82 in the summer), and for quarantine is 78 degrees. I also dose CO2, consistent at 30ppm.

I don't have any other tank mates that could be stressing them out (I don't think), cherry barbs, congo tetras, harlequin rasboras, kuhli loaches, a bn pleco and amano shrimp. This tank is also veryyy heavily planted, with two caves and driftwood that acts as a third cave.

Is there another community cichlid that would work that won't eat my amano shrimp? I was thinking bolivian rams maybe?


----------



## redavalanche (Dec 7, 2014)

I would try a pair of Bolivian ram. They are pretty tough IMO. Many people have trouble with German Blue Ram. 
Tried some ghost shrimp in my tank and I dont recall the Bolivian causing trouble but the Angel fish certainly did.


----------



## GreenCup (Feb 19, 2014)

Where are you getting your Rams from? I have read good things about these guys. I personally don't have any experience with them, but maybe someone on the forum does.

[YUNITE] SDRAMS | Your No.1 Source of Quality German Blue Rams


----------



## redstar7t (Dec 3, 2015)

I've gotten the rams from three different providers, the first pair from a LFS, the second pair from a local chain store, and the last one from a different chain store. I'll keep that site in my favorites in case I change my mind later on, but right now I don't wanna spend $30 on rams I'm not sure I can keep alive. I think I'll try a Bolivian and see how it goes, I've read good things about them being with Amanos.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Not sure why you keep losing them. I have 3 and they've been awesome with no problems. 

Speaking from my experience alone, the one thing that is worth noting when it comes to rams is to make sure they are eating well when you first get them. Until they hunker down and get comfortable, they won't be pushy and or fight for food. 

Once they settle in, they will go to upper and mid levels to feed, but when they are new, they rely on food on the bottom to pick at. They naturally pick from the bottom anyway, so make sure there is enough food for them, otherwise they'll starve.

My males are in a community tank. For the first few days they were not eating enough, so I temporarily fed them after lights were turned off. This allowed them to eat with little to no competition for food as most of the other fish settle in to their resting spots. Once the rams settled in, they now eat at all tank levels. My female is by herself, so eating has never been a issue.

My water is soft and I don't keep them really warm. They do fine with temps between 76-80. The biggest thing about rams is water quality, but you don't have issue.


----------



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Soft acidic water ,(won't do well in hard water for long). With low TDS, and temps around 80 to 82 degree's F will go a long way for these often fragile Fish.
Would try and purchase fish from breeder rather than Fish store If possible.
All manner of fishes and or pathogen's both pass through these store tank's weekly/monthly.(diseases too)
If I did purchase from these tank's (no other option),I would want to purchase fish that have been in the store tank's for a few weeks(not day's) even if this meant placing a small deposit on the fish with the store (if they'll do it).
Some claim to have no issues with these fish in hard water, but enough struggle with them to make me question their claim's.
Other 's of this species are sickly when they arrive at the stores.


----------



## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

roadmaster said:


> Would try and purchase fish from breeder rather than Fish store If possible


That there, plus you can find out exactly what they were eating and things like temp and water conditions you need to try emulate. If its some uncommon food you will need to source locally, ask for a small sample or culture to tide you over.

Most small scale breeders love it when their fish can get the same treatment and food in their adoptive homes.


----------



## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

GBR can be tough to keep. They're very sensitive to nitrates....much more so than almost any other species; so keep up with those water changes! As noted above though, good stock from a reputable breeder will give you a much better starting point than most of the stock you might get at a LFS. Yunite (mentioned above) is a very reputable breeder and I believe its a father and son team who only keep/breed GBR. I purchased from them recently and can vouch that their stock is top notch quality stuff. I was very impressed not only with the quality of the fish but the professionalism of the transaction. I went out of my way to buy a group of females and had quite a few conversations with the seller before I pulled the trigger (sexing GBR is difficult and I have trouble believing many people when they say they can do it lol). Yunite guaranteed me he'd get nothing but females; and when the package arrived I was not so sure about that. I emailed him and he tried to brush it off; but I eventually sent him a picture of the one fish I was questioning as being a potential male. Yunite immediately owned up to the mistake and took care of the issue for me. You can find him selling on aquabid or I believe his website is germanbluerams.com Its worth spending the money on quality stock rather than testing your luck with multiple LFS purchases....which will end up being more costly in the long run!


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I think it's your water pH and hardness. You're best keeping African lake cichlids.


----------



## matt13 (Jul 17, 2012)

GBR's can be a little more difficult to keep than other species of fish, but not that hard. A couple of things to keep in mind is that you need to know the parameters of the water in which the fish were hatched and raised. Many people read all the information that Rams need soft, acidic water. That is true of Rams in their native habitat. Most, if not all of the Rams available today have been hatched and raised for generations in totally different water conditions. Unless you specifically buy "wild caught" Rams, virtually all of the Rams available from Big-Box stores have more than likely been raised in farm ponds in South Florida. Unfortunately, those fish go through a punishing regimen of fasting, purging, treating, shipping, etc. before they reach the local fish store. They have been under so much stress, that it's actually a surprise they lasted that long in your tank. We have had rams that have lived for years! The best thing you can do to help ensure a long, healthy life is to find a breeder that has hatched and raised their fish in water conditions that are very similar to yours. Also, you may want to bump up your water temp to around 84 degrees if the other fish and plants can handle the extra heat. Rams, like Discus, like their water on the warm side. It's not that the fish will not live at cooler temps, but they will not thrive. Especially after the shipping process, the fish have really been stressed. At lower temps, the stress begins to takes its toll and often the fish become more susceptible to secondary infections (especially Ich), will tend to hide, turn dark, stop eating, and will slowly fade away over a period of weeks. There are a number of things you can do to keep your new Rams healthy:

1) Buy your Rams from a reputable breeder, not a big box store. Honestly, if you saw what those fish go through just to get to the store, you would wonder how they survived at all.
2) Keep the water in your quarantine tank around 85 degrees.
3) Start off by feeding them live foods if you have them available, if not, frozen foods work almost as well. Newly hatched brine shrimp would be awesome!
4) Turn off your Co2 for the first couple of days after introducing them to your tank, especially if they appear to be breathing hard.
5) Keep up with your water changes!!!
6) Keep up with your water changes!! - No, it's not a typo, it's just that important.

German Blue Rams are not that hard to sex, unless they are really young. They reach sexual maturity, and will start spawning when they are between 3.5 to 4 months old. Here's a link to help you sex your Rams: Sexing Rams - Freshwater Cichlis Breeder | SomeFin's Fishy

Don't give up on your Rams, they are beautiful fish and have really great personalities!! Good Luck.


----------



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Soft acidic water for best result's.
Life expectancy for the species in ideal condition's is about three year's, an unless you buy juvenile's,then you cannot really tell how old the fish may be when purchased.
Could already be a year or two old.
Fish farm's are rumored to keep these fish in veritible soup's of antibiotic's and once removed from these tank's,they begin to slowly decline in health.
I have no proof of this, but do not doubt the possibility/probability.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Does anybody really believe that Pet Co and other store keeps their ram tanks at 82 degrees? 

I also disagree that keeping them below this temp results in death. If that were the case, mine wouldn't have survived at all. Not only did they come from a store that gives zero ducks about water quality, but they also don't cater to any given species of fish. 

My little rams should have been dead months ago and yet just this morning the boys were having a good ol' time sparring after a good breakfast. 

SMH


----------



## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Just like angelfish, they will have a compromised immune system at low temperatures.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Why?

Any fishes immune system is compromised if they are not kept in a clean tank to begin with. Just as their health is compromised if they don't get enough O2, a healthy diet, ect...

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this 'fear mongering' with rams drives me crazy.


----------



## matt13 (Jul 17, 2012)

Smooch said:


> Does anybody really believe that Pet Co and other store keeps their ram tanks at 82 degrees?
> 
> SMH


Absolutely not! But that's part of the reason why the fish from these businesses don't do very well once you get them home. Many of the Rams (or other fish for that matter) have Ich while still in the stores, or develop it shortly after getting them home. Plus, you have no way of knowing how many were sick or died and were removed from the tank on a daily basis. The fish in these stores are turned over approx. twice a week, and I don't think it's because they were all sold.

"Fear Mongering"??? I don't think so. If the normal or preferred temperature range for a given fish is known, doesn't it make sense to keep them at that temperature? If not, you are just adding one more stress variable to the fish's life. It's possible that they may do fine. Like I said, they may not die, but they will not thrive as they should, and may not display their best colors. After all, isn't that why we keep these little guys, to see them at their best? If we know what their preferences are, why not provide it for them. The OP stated he was having problems keeping his Rams alive. All we are trying to do is give him some good information to try to stack the odds in his favor.


----------



## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

Smooch said:


> Why?
> 
> Any fishes immune system is compromised if they are not kept in a clean tank to begin with. Just as their health is compromised if they don't get enough O2, a healthy diet, ect...
> 
> I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this 'fear mongering' with rams drives me crazy.



fear mongering? lol....how dare those fish naturally thrive in warmer bodies of water!

Just like with anything in this hobby, there are certain guidelines suggested if you wish to provide the best environment possible for your fish. Will a ram drop dead in a 78 degree tank? no of course not. Its possible that the waters where they come from naturally could get that cold for a period of time too. Doesnt mean they wont do better in slightly warmer water.

Take goldfish for example. They are a "cold water" fish; yet many hobbyists keep them in heated tanks. Doesn't mean instant death but in all likelihood the fish wont live out life to the fullest in that setup.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

matt13 said:


> Absolutely not! But that's part of the reason why the fish from these businesses don't do very well once you get them home. Many of the Rams (or other fish for that matter) have Ich while still in the stores, or develop it shortly after getting them home. Plus, you have no way of knowing how many were sick or died and were removed from the tank on a daily basis. The fish in these stores are turned over approx. twice a week, and I don't think it's because they were all sold.
> 
> "Fear Mongering"??? I don't think so. If the normal or preferred temperature range for a given fish is known, doesn't it make sense to keep them at that temperature? If not, you are just adding one more stress variable to the fish's life. It's possible that they may do fine. Like I said, they may not die, but they will not thrive as they should, and may not display their best colors. After all, isn't that why we keep these little guys, to see them at their best? If we know what their preferences are, why not provide it for them. The OP stated he was having problems keeping his Rams alive. All we are trying to do is give him some good information to try to stack the odds in his favor.


Shipping fish whether it be to a big box store or from a breeder across the world causes stress. Can we agree on this simple point?

If the end goal is to keep fish in the 'ideal' environment, a glass box would not be it. If what is said all over the internet about how rams die if somebody looks at them the wrong way is true, then what is it? Elitist fish keeping? I was told the same thing about my panda cories 3 years ago. They're still here, alive and well. 

I love my rams as much as the next person and it is great that people want to help with how to keep them healthy for a long time. However, I personally am getting really tired of reading over and over again about how I'm killing my fish because I don't keep them at 82 degrees and act like a helicopter fish parent. Do they live in a constant perfect 82 degree water in the wild? Not likely!

Internet says, therefore it must be. If that's the case, I should have been dead a long time ago. I have birch trees, a lawn, a houseful of pets and dust on my keyboard. I'm allergic to all of these things and I'm still here to talk about it.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

matt13 said:


> Most, if not all of the Rams available today have been hatched and raised for generations in totally different water conditions. Unless you specifically buy "wild caught" Rams, virtually all of the Rams available from Big-Box stores have more than likely been raised in farm ponds in South Florida.


It's likely in farmed SE Asia where the water is soft.


----------



## matt13 (Jul 17, 2012)

mistergreen said:


> It's likely in farmed SE Asia where the water is soft.


You could very well be correct. I've been to several of the large "farms" in the Tampa Bay area and saw how they raised Rams. They are kept in pits roughly 40' x 20' until they reach selling size. They are netted out of the ponds, put into fresh water tanks for a week without feeding to purge their systems. Then, they are shipped to the large wholesalers where they are treated heavily with salt and shipped out to pet dealers around the country. With the stress these guys are under, I'm surprised they do as well as they do.


----------



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

matt13 said:


> Absolutely not! But that's part of the reason why the fish from these businesses don't do very well once you get them home. Many of the Rams (or other fish for that matter) have Ich while still in the stores, or develop it shortly after getting them home. Plus, you have no way of knowing how many were sick or died and were removed from the tank on a daily basis. The fish in these stores are turned over approx. twice a week, and I don't think it's because they were all sold.
> 
> "Fear Mongering"??? I don't think so. If the normal or preferred temperature range for a given fish is known, doesn't it make sense to keep them at that temperature? If not, you are just adding one more stress variable to the fish's life. It's possible that they may do fine. Like I said, they may not die, but they will not thrive as they should, and may not display their best colors. After all, isn't that why we keep these little guys, to see them at their best? If we know what their preferences are, why not provide it for them. The OP stated he was having problems keeping his Rams alive. All we are trying to do is give him some good information to try to stack the odds in his favor.


 
Very well put.
This line of thinking is what makes the difference between fish keeper's,and fish collector's,, who replace those that die with more , and attempt to force fishes to exist within their beliefs as to what constitutes a suitable environment.
Fishes might survive for a few week's,month's,as opposed to dying of old age in your/my tanks.
I was guilty of the latter for more year's than I care to admit to when I first began caring for tropical fishes,and killed untold number's of fishes either directly,or from cumulative effect's that contributed to stress.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

roadmaster said:


> Very well put.
> This line of thinking is what makes the difference between fish keeper's,and fish collector's,, who replace those that die with more , and attempt to force fishes to exist within their beliefs as to what constitutes a suitable environment.
> Fishes might survive for a few week's,month's,as opposed to dying of old age in your/my tanks.
> I was guilty of the latter for more year's than I care to admit to when I first began caring for tropical fishes,and killed untold number's of fishes either directly,or from cumulative effect's that contributed to stress.


Hubby and I sat around the kitchen table talking about this the other night. We already have a running joke about how due to my choice of keeping low tech tanks is neglect. Every time I do water changes or sit here at my desk with all the test kits out I hear "You're being negligent again!"

If my rams were stressed, they'd show it. They would hide and refuse to eat. They wouldn't be curious when I stuck my hands in the tank, chase the vacuum, spar or give me attitude. They also wouldn't investigate when new things are put into the tank or actively seek out new hide-y holes when their tank is rearranged. If these are symptoms of stress, I wonder what real stress looks like?

If people pride themselves with putting fish in a proverbial pine box before the fishes' time, there isn't much anybody can do about that. However, as much as I appreciate the concern, I'm going trust what I see on a daily basis verses what internet tells me. Based on some opinions around here alone, I should give up the hobby entirely simply because I don't use CO2. Sadly for those, I'm too stubborn for that.

I would love to see all these death clocks mentioned to those on the internet that don't clean their tanks, do water changes, test their tanks and engage in what should be good husbandry across the hobby in general. Even Tom Barr plays the water change game. If you have CO2 tank, you signed up for water changes. If you keep a low tech tank, meh. Do them if you want. :icon_roll

One would be lead to believe everybody in the fish keeping hobby were keepers of pigeons rather than fish...


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Smooch said:


> tank, you signed up for water changes. If you keep a low tech tank, meh. Do them if you want. :icon_roll



Yes and no. Low tech tanks are more stable I think but organic solids will but up over time if you don't do water changes, which is bad. Use a cheap TDS meter to test your tanks. If you see 500+ppm TDS, time to do a water change. The EPA considers 500+ as contaminated water. It's not good for fish either.


----------



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

OP's question was asked and attempt's made to point out possible contributer's to his/her problem .The most glaring of which would be hard alkaline water for the German blue ram's .(they prefer warm, soft acidic water)
Water changes,testing,overall tank husbandry,are another topic best suited for another thread.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

mistergreen said:


> Yes and no. Low tech tanks are more stable I think but organic solids will but up over time if you don't do water changes, which is bad. Use a cheap TDS meter to test your tanks. If you see 500+ppm TDS, time to do a water change. The EPA considers 500+ as contaminated water. It's not good for fish either.


I'm not a fan of the EPA either. Their thoughts on regulating 'particulate matter" AKA dust as a whole is a bit far-fetched but that is a whole other issue.

My point was I find it interesting how the fish keeping game is played. If a person doesn't do something in one way, it's all doom and gloom. In this case, my fish are dead because I don't keep them in 82 degree water. It isn't about whether the water is clean or not, it's instant death if they are not kept at a specific temp. Period. 

It's a bit over the top, much like the EPA wanting to regulate dust at every corner of this country, but different strokes for different folks.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

According to Mikrogeophagus ramirezi ? Ram (Apistogramma ramirezi, Papiliochromis ramirezi, Microgeophagus ramirezi) ? Seriously Fish
Rams take a wide variety of temps in nature, 71F - 86F.
The temperature argument is neither here nor there. Water params are important.


----------



## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Nobody said instant death, ever noticed how children from deprived communities are smaller, they are also acting pretty normal, and not sick. 

Also I have seen many threads warning people of the potential issues with CO2, I would imagine it is seen more often than people insisting you need CO2. So I would say we have a pretty neutral community here, including the small inevitable statistical anomalies.


----------



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

mistergreen said:


> According to Mikrogeophagus ramirezi ? Ram (Apistogramma ramirezi, Papiliochromis ramirezi, Microgeophagus ramirezi) ? Seriously Fish
> Rams take a wide variety of temps in nature, 71F - 86F.
> The temperature argument is neither here nor there. Water params are important.


 Look under habitat where these fishes are found at the site you mention.(Seriously Fish.com)
"Year round warm water '' for the most part, and fishes in the wild ,if we care to note /emulate such thing's, can travel feet or miles to shallower warmer water, or deeper cooler water if they wish to.
Not so in a glass box of water with constant temperature.
Agree that water parameter's are most important.
Fishes in the wild, can move from unsuitable environment to one more to their liking much more easily that they can in my/your tank .
One would think that after a few decades of tank raising these fish, that they might become more adaptable to wider range of water chemistry and I hear tell that a few do indeed, but I see no evidence that their number's are increasing judging from post's across several forum's for several year's now.:frown2:


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

roadmaster said:


> Look under habitat where these fishes are found at the site you mention.(Seriously Fish.com)
> "Year round warm water '' for the most part, and fishes in the wild ,if we care to note /emulate such thing's, can travel feet or miles to shallower warmer water, or deeper cooler water if they wish to.
> Not so in a glass box of water with constant temperature.
> Agree that water parameter's are most important.
> Fishes in the wild, can move from unsuitable environment to one more to their liking much more easily that they can in my/your tank .


True. I wouldn't discount anecdotal observations either. Sounds like they do better in the warmer spectrum than the cooler spectrum. A warmer tank has less O2 so give it lots of surface agitation.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

roadmaster said:


> One would think that after a few decades of tank raising these fish, that they might become more adaptable to wider range of water chemistry and I hear tell that a few do indeed, but I see no evidence that their number's are increasing judging from post's across several forum's for several year's now.:frown2:


I think a lot of them are farmed in SE Asia where the water is soft. That's why Asia is so productive, in addition to their cheap labor, and resources.. Only a few are farmed in Florida where they're used to the harder water.


----------



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I just spent the past 10 minutes Googling causes of ram deaths. I could fill this post with links, but I suspect that wouldn't go well, so for anybody that wants to put in the time and wants to keep rams, Google is your friend.

Causes of death:

Aggressive tank mates. Rams are not Mbuna and should not be kept with them. They are from South America, not Africa.

Newly cycled tanks. Rams need a tank that is well established.

Filthy tanks. Nuff said.

This one is a brain twister. Some people say that rams should be kept in a heavily planted tank, but keep nitrates at zero. This alone is humorous as internet says that zero nitrates are the cause of cyano bacteria. I'm not opposed to heavily planted part, but how exactly does one keep zero nitrates and ward off the cyano at the same time? Some advice does make one wonder and this would be one of those times.

According to one You Tuber, a temp spike to cure ich killed his rams. 

Hard water: Debated. Some say water quality is more important than pH. 

Rams fighting with each other. Again, another mystery as it is supposedly impossible to keep a single ram. 

The list goes on and on. 

OP: I'd suggest you find somebody you can trust and talk to them before buying more rams. If you have a local breeder, that's cool but make sure you do your research first because despite all the chatter about fish breeders, not all of them are all they are cracked up to be.


----------



## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

I keep my Bolivian rams in hard water with a ph of 7.8 and they do very well. I chose them because the GBRs are too fragile for me. Bolivian rams are pretty tough, but they are quite territorial, and I had 3 die on me out of my 5, the 3 just stopped eating and died, I couldnt save them.


----------



## huangboyu (Jul 18, 2012)

This is what I am doing in cheap and safe way:
1. collect later part of rain water from drain pipe. keep for at least one day before use.
2. rinse dry almond leaves in hot water for 5min.
3. mix half rain water with half tap water (you can modify the ratio), adding the leaves.
Your Rams will live happily ever after.


----------



## matt13 (Jul 17, 2012)

Smooch said:


> However, I personally am getting really tired of reading over and over again about how I'm killing my fish because I don't keep them at 82 degrees and act like a helicopter fish parent. Do they live in a constant perfect 82 degree water in the wild? Not likely!
> 
> Internet says, therefore it must be. If that's the case, I should have been dead a long time ago. I have birch trees, a lawn, a houseful of pets and dust on my keyboard. I'm allergic to all of these things and I'm still here to talk about it.


Forgive me for saying so, but I think you are taking/making this way too personal. The original poster (OP) merely asked for help in trying to figure out what is going wrong with his rams. All we are trying to do is offer him the collective benefit of our experiences. This isn't information we collected on the internet, but the culmination of years of experience in keeping, raising and breeding rams. Somehow, you seem to feel that since some of our opinions don't mesh with your experiences that we are attacking you and your skills. The difference between 78 degrees and 82 degrees is only 4 degrees. I doubt any fish's life will hang in the balance over 4 degrees. But, since the OP is looking for assistance, why not provide him with the benefit of all of our experiences and try to ensure his best chance of success. After all, we're not suggesting that he buy some expensive piece of equipment or a larger aquarium. All of the suggestions that were made were based on what has worked for us. The beauty of this process is that anyone can choose for themselves what information is valuable or BS. If your fish are thriving, that's awesome! That's what this hobby is all about and why this forum exists, to bring "fish people" together to share our experiences and help each other out. I understand being a little sensitive/protective about how we keep our fish, but if it works for you, that's all that counts.


----------



## f1sleepy (May 1, 2016)

GreenCup said:


> Where are you getting your Rams from? I have read good things about these guys. I personally don't have any experience with them, but maybe someone on the forum does.
> 
> [YUNITE] SDRAMS | Your No.1 Source of Quality German Blue Rams


Just wanted to confirm that yunite breeds very nice rams. They are local to me and I purchased a few rams from them a few years back and they were great looking, healthy fish.


----------



## redstar7t (Dec 3, 2015)

First of all I'd like to thank everyone for the replies, the collective information and views from everyone is a lot of help. I've even gotten a few PM's on the matter with extra info.

I haven't decided on what to do yet, whether to try again with a GBR or go Bolivian or scrap the idea of a dwarf cichlid all together. What I have definitely decided is on the next one of whatever I buy will come from a private breeder, if I can find one near by. That seemed to be a major consensus on what the problem could be, that and my stupid hard water.

PS - I also guess I forgot to mention that I EI dose with a very consistent 40 - 50 % weekly water change


----------



## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

My experience has been real hit or miss! I bought 6 from Petsmart awhile back and 5 out of 6 lived and were tough as nails. 
Then I went to the "good" LFS and bought two and they both kicked!!!

I don't think pH is that big a factor as long as it remains stable. 

I think there are just some bad/mass breeding that is producing a lot of weak Rams.

Maybe check your tank before and after a water change, and then midweek and see if you are getting pH swings.


----------



## Hansen (Jul 13, 2016)

I think high temperature was so good(28~30degrees C)


----------



## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

ichy said:


> I think there are just some bad/mass breeding that is producing a lot of weak Rams.


I think may people buy their breeding males and females at the same time from the same shop. This has the result of many inexperienced breeders, breeding siblings with each other.


----------



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

redstar7t said:


> First of all I'd like to thank everyone for the replies, the collective information and views from everyone is a lot of help. I've even gotten a few PM's on the matter with extra info.
> 
> I haven't decided on what to do yet, whether to try again with a GBR or go Bolivian or scrap the idea of a dwarf cichlid all together. What I have definitely decided is on the next one of whatever I buy will come from a private breeder, if I can find one near by. That seemed to be a major consensus on what the problem could be, that and my stupid hard water.
> 
> PS - I also guess I forgot to mention that I EI dose with a very consistent 40 - 50 % weekly water change


 
The dosing of the dry mineral salt's sharply raises the TDS and if one is only marginally able to keep the fish in more alkaline water,, then this weekly, or every other day increase in TDS combined with hard alkaline water,could be sending the fish over the edge.(speculation for sure)
This is possibly two strikes against a fish that prefer's soft acidic water with lower TDS,pH <7
Add to this temps outside the range they may be accustomed to,maybe more CO2 than they are comfortable with, poor diet,lapse maint,and the cumulative effect's become a bigger issue for an already sensitive fish.
Anything one can do to lessen the stress in my view can only be a benefit.
If I were set on the fish ,then I might set up a small 20 gal tank and if my water was a bit on the alkaline side,I might try mixing R/O or distilled water or rainwater mentioned after filtering it through carbon at a rate of 50/50 mix.
The smaller tank would make it cheaper to provide store bought R/O or distilled water than larger tank if R/O system is too costly to install.
Plenty of folk's seem to be able to keep this fish in EI dosed tank's with softer water than those who attempt it with hard alkaline water which is significant to me.
Softer water is normally lower in alkalinity as well as TDS thereby making the addition of the mineral salt's less dramatic.
My best effort's with the German blue ram's and the golden variant's was with just such a tank, 50/50 mix of tap and R/O but I did not have any plant's so no fertilizer's were added and the small 20 gal never held but more than a couple of the fish.
They just would not thrive in my tap water but oddly enough,the Domestic Discus did fine in my tap water 12Dgh and pH of 7.6.
The Discus(tank raised) were much easier to keep healthy for me than the Ram's .


----------



## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Just to add to your list, water below pH of 7, is much less likely to have issues with ammonia, as it gets converted to less toxic ammonium.
So there is another stress vector these fish don't normally have to deal with, and are probably less able to deal with should the need arise.


----------



## redstar7t (Dec 3, 2015)

roadmaster said:


> The dosing of the dry mineral salt's sharply raises the TDS and if one is only marginally able to keep the fish in more alkaline water,, then this weekly, or every other day increase in TDS combined with hard alkaline water,could be sending the fish over the edge.(speculation for sure)
> This is possibly two strikes against a fish that prefer's soft acidic water with lower TDS,pH <7
> Add to this temps outside the range they may be accustomed to,maybe more CO2 than they are comfortable with, poor diet,lapse maint,and the cumulative effect's become a bigger issue for an already sensitive fish.
> Anything one can do to lessen the stress in my view can only be a benefit.
> ...


Yea I'd love to get an R/O setup as most fish I've ever researched about prefer acidic/soft water. I actually have to do half tap half distilled for my cherry shrimp colony 10g otherwise they get molting problems. Unfortunately I'm still just a kid living with my parents for now and they would not tolerate an R/O setup or another tank ha


----------



## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

redstar7t said:


> Yea I'd love to get an R/O setup as most fish I've ever researched about prefer acidic/soft water. I actually have to do half tap half distilled for my cherry shrimp colony 10g otherwise they get molting problems. Unfortunately I'm still just a kid living with my parents for now and they would not tolerate an R/O setup or another tank ha


Get an undersink RO unit that you can uses for drinking water. Would your parents be against healthier drinking water??:wink2:


----------



## f1sleepy (May 1, 2016)

Or just get a hose bib adapter so you only set it up when you need it and store it when you dont. Much less wasteful too.


----------

