# Too Many Fish For A 17 Gallon ? ? ?



## Greenmagick (May 2, 2010)

I dont think I would put the gouramies in that tank...they get about 5 inches I believe? Min tank size suggested is 20g.

I have done a pair of rams in a 10 along with about 6 danios and I felt that was pushing it bit.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

They can grow to 12cm but I am going to purchase them at about 5.5cm big. So by the time they are that big I will have a larger tank ready for them. 

But I am willing to cut down on the Danios. I just wanted them in that amount for a small school effect in the aqaurium. Anyone else think my selection is too much? Thanks!


----------



## Greenmagick (May 2, 2010)

I wouldnt cut down on schooling fish....they need a nice number to be comfortable. Why dont you just wait on either the rams or the gouramies until your other tank is ready?


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Greenmagick said:


> I wouldnt cut down on schooling fish....they need a nice number to be comfortable. Why dont you just wait on either the rams or the gouramies until your other tank is ready?


Could be years. And I would prefer having them before that. I may even cut out the danios/schooling fish in total and just have the Gouramies, Rams and Corys/Pleco. Would this work with the amount of fish I suggested and my tank size? Thanks!


----------



## Greenmagick (May 2, 2010)

well, the gouramies are going to reach full size way before "years" are up. Personally, no, I would not put one gourami, let alone three in that size tank. Others may have a different opinion....


----------



## Deathscythe617 (Apr 8, 2010)

I think that may be a bit much, but try this  helped me get my tank stocked! Hope i was of help!


----------



## tuffgong (Apr 13, 2010)

My opaline gouramis look like shrimp eaters IMO. I don't have shrimp, but they seem like they would become an expensive snack.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Deathscythe617 said:


> I think that may be a bit much, but try this helped me get my tank stocked! Hope i was of help!


Thanks that helped alot. Good for knowing what fish will be suited. The Rams like it hot though where the others perfer it less hot. So it may be the gouramies instead of the rams.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

tuffgong said:


> My opaline gouramis look like shrimp eaters IMO. I don't have shrimp, but they seem like they would become an expensive snack.


I dont think so. I have read around and they say Amano shrimp are pretty safe against Opaline Gouramies. My shrimp are already about 3.5cm. But you never know, fish like humans will be different depending on the individual.

But already my original entry has changed to my following wish list. Will this selection be better? Please comment and help, thanks!
2 Opaline Gouramies (2 female )
2 Bolivian or Blue Cheek Dwarf Cichlids (1 male, 1 female, Rams)
3 Bottom feeders, such as peppered Cory’s or a single larger Pleco

Thanks!


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Yes generally Plecos do grow larger. But there are some nice small sized ones to like the Bristlenosed Pleco which grows to about 3" max. But I think your right, I will go with the Corys, no sure which ones yet! Probably Peppered Corys. So, so far its looking like the following;

2 Opaline Gouramies (2 female )
2 Bolivian or Blue Cheek Dwarf Cichlids (1 male, 1 female, Rams)
3 Corys (probably peppered but open for suggestion!)

Thanks guys!


----------



## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Just remember corys like to be in larger groups, I would say atleast 5-6. If you conisdered a dwarf cory like the pygmaeus you could probably do 10 of them. I would conisder a Dwarf Gourami as well soemthing that won't get over 2" in that size of tank. If it was mine I would do something like the following:

Pair Rams
10 Corydoras Pygmaeus
10 Green Neon Tetras

All of these should stay pretty small and have similar water requirements.

Craig


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Craigthor said:


> Pair Rams
> 10 Corydoras Pygmaeus
> 10 Green Neon Tetras


+1 that would be a much better stocking for this tank. Even then your Rams may have issues, so have a Plan B ready if it turns out they just aren't going to play nice with each other.

Only gourami I'd put in a tank this small would be a Sparkling.


----------



## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

Blue rams would be a great choice for this size tank, but Bolivians would be very cramped. Two of my Bolivian males are 4" long, not including their trailers!! They're very bulky fish. One of my males even seemed very unhappy in my 25 gallon, but really perked up in the 125. Of course I'm not saying that you need a 125 gallon tank to keep these, but I think that 14 is definitely too small. 

If you want cichlids in this tank, German blue rams or apistos would be your best bet.


----------



## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

The corys and pleco are not suited to be in your tank, nor are the rams, the danios are really the only thing I would put in that tank. 3 rams would not be good in any tank, as rams pair up and the third one will be left and picked (if not killed) by the other rams. You could quarantine the fish in that tank, but only 2 gouramis at a time and the rams would need to wait until those go into the tank. Personally I would not risk the tank crash thus resulting in losing/shortening their life-span in fauna.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Caton said:


> You could quarantine the fish in that tank, but only 2 gouramis at a time and the rams would need to wait until those go into the tank. .


Thanks for the help, but why wouldnt the Corys be ok in my tank? Also are you saying if I was to have Rams just have 2, becuase thats what I would do. Also would the gouramis have to go in before the rams? Why? Thanks for the help.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Amazonfish said:


> Blue rams would be a great choice for this size tank, but Bolivians would be very cramped.
> 
> If you want cichlids in this tank, German blue rams or apistos would be your best bet.


Thanks for the input. I prefer the german blues I think anyway. Are Blue Cheek Rams ok for my tank. I looked at thier profile and they only grow to 8cm. So now the list is the following, what do you guys think?

2 Dwarf Gouramis
2 Blue Cheek or German Blue Rams
5 Corys or a small pleco

Thanks for the help!


----------



## Deathscythe617 (Apr 8, 2010)

I think the corys would really work well, i have 4 of them in my 16g bowfront, and i love them! In a group of 4 they are really active, always scouring the bottom of the tank, really adds some interesting bottom activity. I wouldn't go with a number below 4 tho, had 3 they werent happy, got a 4th and they are amazingly active. Peppered corys are awesome, tiz my favorite species of them, really interesting colors. Did you ever think of White Cloud Minnows? I would have never thought a minnow could be so pretty. Also, have you considered a single dwarf gourami? May fit the size better.


----------



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Swan900 said:


> Could be years. And I would prefer having them before that. I may even cut out the danios/schooling fish in total and just have the Gouramies, Rams and Corys/Pleco. Would this work with the amount of fish I suggested and my tank size? Thanks!


Well it seems as though you have your mind made up. You can either do what is best for the fish or what you want for you. What is best for the fish is to wait until you have the proper tank for them. If it could be years, they will be too big long before you have a new tank. 

Sorry to sound harsh, but there isn't much sense in asking for advice if you have your mind made up.


----------



## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Swan900 said:


> Yes generally Plecos do grow larger. But there are some nice small sized ones to like the Bristlenosed Pleco which grows to about 3" max.


Bristlenose grow to 5 or 6 inches. The 30 or so I have breeding are a good indication of that...


----------



## Deathscythe617 (Apr 8, 2010)

Could always go with an Otocinclus or two? They stay pretty small i believe.


----------



## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

A few corydoras would work for this tank, but they love to be in groups so dwarf corydoras would be WAY better. You could have a group of at least 6 of them. They're wonderful fish. There are 3 main species of dwarf cory:

corydoras pygmaeus
corydoras habrosus
corydoras hastatus


----------



## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

over_stocked said:


> Bristlenose grow to 5 or 6 inches. The 30 or so I have breeding are a good indication of that...


Agreed. I have an albino bristlenose pleco that's about 5 inches long. He's not full grown yet, either. They are poop machines. Really bad idea for a 14 gallon. I have mine in my 125 gallon, and that tank handles the waste well.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

*Tank Size Mess Up*

By the way guys I have just realised that I have been giving you my tank size in UK Gallons. So my 14g to me would be 17 gallons in the US. So my tank is acutally 17g to the majority of you guys.

And in reply to someone above I have not made my mind up as said I have decided against the Gouramies and just to have a couple of GBR's or BCR's. Still a bit baffed on the ground part of the tank, some people say 4 peppered corys, some say 6-8 dwarf corys. Whats the best?

Thanks guys!


----------



## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

The reason I suggested dwarf cories is because they're smaller and will add less bioload. I find them much more charming than regular sized cories. Since they're smaller, you'll be able to have a school of them which will make them comfortable and it will look adorable when they whiz around the tank together. For 17 gallons, here's what I would do:

2 Blue rams or apistos
8-10 dwarf cories
8-10 small tetras (neons?)

Wait...that's pretty much what Craigthor said. Yep, that's what I'd go with. :biggrin:


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Amazonfish said:


> For 17 gallons, here's what I would do:
> 
> 2 Blue rams or apistos
> 8-10 dwarf cories
> 8-10 small tetras (neons?)


Thats the sort of thing I would like too! Thats good then! But what other selection of small tetras (or equivilent) could I go for? Some interesting ones perhaps? Thanks guys!


----------



## tuffgong (Apr 13, 2010)

Rummynose, Cardinals, or Neon Tetras are all nice small tetras.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

tuffgong said:


> Rummynose, Cardinals, or Neon Tetras are all nice small tetras.


Are Black Phantom Tetras ok aswell? Also what other species are there that are similar size and bioload to Tetras? Thanks!


----------



## tuffgong (Apr 13, 2010)

Here's some info on the Black Phantom Tetra.

I've never had any, but they seem like black versions of Serpae Tetra which I do currently have. They are bigger fish than Neons or Cardinals so you might have to cut down on the number of them. I think they like to be in groups of 5 at least.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

tuffgong said:


> They are bigger fish than Neons or Cardinals so you might have to cut down on the number of them. I think they like to be in groups of 5 at least.


Thanks for the info. But 3.5cm isnt that big is it? But I am still waiting for replies on other small schooling fish apart from tetras. Thanks!


----------



## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

marbled hatchetfish are interesting, but they will jump out of your tank unless you cover it. other small schooling(ish) fish--

Celestial pearl danios
boraras brigittae (rams might eat smaller boraras though)

Edit: black phantoms will may get bigger than 3.5 cm. In any case, I wouldn't consider them a 'small' tetra.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Wow, I really like the colour on the boraras brigittae. But probably 90% that they will not be available over here in England. The CPD's are hard to find too. I would love some of those as my schooling fish. The Black phantoms were just an idea thought. Anymore good ideas guys? Thanks for the help!


----------



## AndiH (Apr 4, 2010)

What are the dimensions of your tank? That would be helpful to guiding you more. If you don't want the dwarf/pygmy corys there are other smallish ones like the pandas; the peppered corys are a bit on the larger end of the species. The corys prefer some plants along the back/sides and an open area in front. You also need to consider substrate with them. You need sand or smooth gravel as anything rough will cut up their barbels. I warn you that cory's are addictive as they're such active clowns.

I had 2 dwarf flame gouramis in my 14g. They were fine as far as water quality and moving around space, but the male did pick on the female a bit. I'd definitely do no less than 4 corys of any type.

For the schooling fish, you could try for Endler's Livebearers. They're a relative to guppys, but much much more colorful.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

AndiH said:


> What are the dimensions of your tank? That would be helpful to guiding you more.


My tank is 23.5" Long x 12" Deep x 14" High. I will put a picture of it below for you. Thanks!


----------



## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

What about hets/ harlequin rasboras? They stay pretty small and are very pretty.

And I think endlers are a great idea - they are so small but think they are sharks  They are very colorful and swim in all levels of the tank.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

wendyjo said:


> What about hets/ harlequin rasboras? They stay pretty small and are very pretty.


I really like them actually. Nice colour patterns that will contrast well with my GBR's or BCR's. Anymore good ideas for small schooling fish and small bottom dwellers for my 17 gallon setup? Thanks for the help!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Any of the dwarf rasporas would be a great choice. They're much more commonly available over here than they used to be just a year or two ago, so look around!

Ember tetras would also work well, and I imagine shouldn't be too hard to find?

Green neon tetras are the smallest of the Cardinal/Neon group, so I'd go for those if you can find them. Cardinals CAN get larger than most people realize- I've seen several adult females that were larger than 2"


----------



## blackandyellow (Jul 1, 2009)

Amazonfish said:


> The reason I suggested dwarf cories is because they're smaller and will add less bioload. I find them much more charming than regular sized cories. Since they're smaller, you'll be able to have a school of them which will make them comfortable and it will look adorable when they whiz around the tank together. For 17 gallons, here's what I would do:
> 
> 2 Blue rams or apistos
> 8-10 dwarf cories
> ...


I think this would be a good mix, but rather keep the cories to 6 and instead of the tetras you could get 6 danios, which usually live on the top section of the tank, leaving the bottom for the couple of Rams and cories.

Neons tend to use the bottom of the tank, so you would only see fish close to the bottom


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

blackandyellow said:


> I think this would be a good mix, but rather keep the cories to 6 and instead of the tetras you could get 6 danios, which usually live on the top section of the tank, leaving the bottom for the couple of Rams and cories.
> 
> Neons tend to use the bottom of the tank, so you would only see fish close to the bottom


Ok when you say Corys do yo mean the dwarf ones or just a small breed of Cory? Also I like the idea of the Danios being at the top the Corys at the bottom and the GBR/BCR's in the middle sections. Would look very nice! 

But dont Danios in general grow larger than Tetras? Does anyone know a small sized and *interesting *species of Danio fit for my tank? Thanks for the great help!


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Also in which order should I add my fish? Should I add the GBR/BCR's last due to their size and behavior and the Corys second and the Tetras/Danios first? Thanks!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

That would work.

I do strongly recommend using/getting a QT tank if you don't already have one though.


----------



## KShoes (Sep 29, 2009)

One problem I had with my GBR was that it attacked my cories. I think she decided the bottom half of the tank was her's. I'm not sure if every GBR has the same personality as the one I have. But I do have driftwood and planted decently to provide lots of hiding spots. My rig is a 20g tall tank and had similar amount of cories (6 pygmies/5 pandas) to what you plan on getting. The GBR doesn't bother my amanos or my SAE but does chase my harlequins time to time as well.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

lauraleellbp said:


> That would work.
> 
> I do strongly recommend using/getting a QT tank if you don't already have one though.


Sorry whats a QT. Sorry lack of knowledge! Thanks!


----------



## KShoes (Sep 29, 2009)

Quarantine Tank


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

I see. Why would a quarntine tank need to be used or benificial to me? Thanks!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I quarantine all new fish for a minimum of 2-4 weeks before putting them into any of my main tanks. This helps catch any diseases or pathogens and gives them time to show up and makes treatment much easier. It's the best way to ensure only healthy fish are going into your tank with other fish, so you don't get any epidemics in there. Ever since I've started a strict QT regimen I've never had to treat ich, fungus, or anything else in ANY of my main tanks.


----------



## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I am glad you decided against the Gouramis. They do not play well with each other. ONE is all that I would have recommended, and perhaps a Honey Gourami, not a Dwarf. 
Thanks for posting the dimensions of the tank; that really helps. It is more like what is sold over here as a 20 gallon tank. 
Here is how I would stock it:

More plants and driftwood to mark territory for German Blue Rams. 
(2) GBR. These are warm water fish, so the other fish need to handle the same. 
(6+) Cories: here is a great reference. Find a species of Cory that stays smaller (under 2") and thrives in warmer water, upper 70sF to 80*F.There are not many. 
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/genus.php?genus_id=1#482
Algae Eaters that like that warm a tank, and stay small enough:
(1-2) Paraotocinclus. (Same reference as for Cories- gotta do some research)
(6-10) small schooling fish. (8) Cardinal Tetras or (10) Harlequin Rasboras would be my first choice. Others that are OK in that size tank could well be (6) Black Phantoms. I have some in a tank with Guppies (flowing tails would make a nice target for nipping) and they are not nippers in my tank. (8) Glow Light Tetras are another possiblity. 
(6) Hatchets like the same warm, soft water as Rams, and stay at the top of the tank. Marbles are one of the smaller species, and they are schooling fish.
OR (1) Betta splendens (Only ONE upper level Anabantoid, if any) 

Zebra Danios are cooler water fish, and are too active. Their zippy sort of behavior can bother some fish, and they can be nippy. Not always, but they sure would not be on my list for this tank. There are some other Danios more recently becoming available. Look into the newer ones for behavior (calmer) and temperature preference. Perhaps _Brachydanio nigrofaciatus_? They are OK in the heat, but mine are sort of like Zebras- Still more active than I would think good for Rams. 

There are not that many Barbs that are small, and handle that heat. But perhaps _Pentazonas_ would work. The problem is that they are also lower tank fish, and they might crowd the Rams too much, especially with the Cories in there, too. 

OK...

More plants
(2) Rams
(1) Betta
(8) Harlequin Rasboras
(2) Paraotocinclus

Keep up the research!

As for order to add fish, and quarantine tank:
Do the fishless cycle. 
Add all the fish at once.

If you need to delay adding any fish add the Rams last, and yes, a quarantine tank. 5 Imperial gallons is plenty. If any fish you want to add to the tank is bringing in any parasites or disease you will catch that problem while the fish is in the quarantine tank, and treat. This avoids having to treat the main tank. Treating fish with meds that do not need it (the healthy fish in the main tank) can stress them.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Diana said:


> More plants
> (2) Rams
> (1) Betta
> (8) Harlequin Rasboras
> (2) Paraotocinclus


Thats what I am going to go with. The Parotocinclus are a great choice due to their small size and tempreture requirements. Also they dont need to school and therefore less bioload. I will probably go with the Pitbull/Goby Pleco (Parotocinclus jumbo), looks very interesting! But may I ask why did you choose the Parotocinclus as a choice? I cant find much info on them and would be interested to see why you thought they would be a good candidate. And you were right I could only find the Pgymy and Panda corys in which are fairly small and can bare the mid to upper 70's. Do you know any others that can?

Also would the Beta, Rams and the Harlequins be ok together? Would there be any fin nipping or aggression? Thanks for the amazing help!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The Betta/Ram combo is iffy so you'll need to keep an eye on that. You might have better luck with a female betta over a male, but due to similar size and both being colorful fish they may identify each other as "competition."

IMO 2 Rams AND a Betta are a bit much for a 14gal tank. I'd go with either/or.


----------



## Aphotic Phoenix (Apr 5, 2010)

KShoes said:


> One problem I had with my GBR was that it attacked my cories. I think she decided the bottom half of the tank was her's. I'm not sure if every GBR has the same personality as the one I have. But I do have driftwood and planted decently to provide lots of hiding spots. My rig is a 20g tall tank and had similar amount of cories (6 pygmies/5 pandas) to what you plan on getting. The GBR doesn't bother my amanos or my SAE but does chase my harlequins time to time as well.


Same experience here. No other fish is welcome near too near the substrate. Also, although they don't rest completely on the substrate like some cories/catfish/etc...they really do spend the majority of their time in the bottom third-ish of the tank in my experience.


----------



## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Paraotocinclus are mostly small species of fish, so minimum bio load, and some species handle the warmer water better than most of the other small Loricariads. 

I skipped the cories for 2 reasons:
They do not respect the Ram's territory, and most are cooler water fish. Not many handle temps close to 80*F, and the few that seem OK with that are larger ones. (Brochis splendes is one example of a Cory relative that is OK in a rather warm tank, but too big for this tank)


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Diana said:


> Paraotocinclus are mostly small species of fish, so minimum bio load, and some species handle the warmer water better than most of the other small Loricariads.


Im going to definately get the Paraotocinclus Jumbo. Look really interesting and will suit my tank nicely. Just have to get this annoying cycle out the way! With the Paraotocinclus require any special diet/foods? Thanks for the help.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Well I went to my LFS today. No Harlequin Rasboras but a variation called *Golden Harlequin Rasbora*. But to me Im nearly 100% sure that it is Trigonostigma espei, the False Harlequin. Would it also be ok instead of my 8 Harlequin Rasboras I am intending to get? I also found something the LFS called *Electric Blue Rams* in which they were a vibrant blue with less markings than the GBR's. Does anyone know of these and if they are compatible with my desired fish list?

Also is there any other ideas of Small fish for my setup? So far its definately the Harlequin Rasboras! Thanks!


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Also are the Harlequins hardy enough for my to do a fish in cycle? I will be paying alot of attention to them and doing water changes when needed. For example if ammonia reaches in execess of 0.50ppm i will do a 30% water change to bring them down so the fish will be ok. Thanks!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'd do a water change any time your ammonia or nitrites get over 0.25, not 0.5.

Add a school of fish and you'll probably end up doing multiple water changes a day to maintain those levels.

If you're OK doing that then go ahead.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

I dont think I will be able to. I may ask my friend to look after the shrimp in his tank until my tank is cycled. But how can I initiate the cycling process without any fish and how long does this take? Thanks!


----------



## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Fishless Cycle
You too can boast that "No fish were harmed in the cycling of your new tank"
Cycling a tank means to grow the beneficial bacteria that will help to decompose the fish waste (especially ammonia). These bacteria need ammonia to grow. There are 3 sources of ammonia that work to do this. One is fish. Unfortunately, the process exposes the fish to ammonia , which burns their gills, and nitrite, which makes their blood unable to carry oxygen. This often kills the fish.

Another source is decomposing protein. You could cycle your tank by adding fish food or a dead fish or shellfish. You do not know how much beneficial bacteria you are growing, though. 

The best source of ammonia is... Ammonia. In a bottle. 

Using fish is a delicate balance of water changes to keep the toxins low (try not to hurt the fish) but keep feeding the bacteria. It can take 4 to 8 weeks to cycle a tank this way, and can cost the lives of several fish. When you are done you have grown a small bacteria population that still needs to be nurtured to increase its population. You cannot, at the end of a fish-in cycle, fully stock your tank. 

The fishless/ammonia cycle takes as little as 3 weeks, and can be even faster, grows a BIG bacteria population, and does not harm fish in any way. 

Both methods give you plenty of practice using your test kit. 

How to cycle a tank the fishless way: 

1) Make sure all equipment is working, fill with water that has all the stuff you will need for the fish you intend to keep. Dechlorinator, minerals for GH or KH adjustments, salt, if you are creating a brackish tank... 

2) Add some source of the bacteria. Used filter media from a cycled tank is best, gravel or some decorations or a few plants... even some water, though this is the poorest source of the beneficial bacteria. 
Bacteria in a bottle can be a source of these bacteria, but make sure you are getting Nitrospiros spp of bacteria. All other ‘bacteria in a bottle’ products have the wrong bacteria. 
You do not have to jump start the cycle by adding any bacteria at all. These bacteria will find the tank even if you add none. Adding them, though, can shorten the fishless cycle by several days or more. Adding a lot might make it an almost instant cycle. You can use products like Tetra Safe Start or Dr. Tim's One and Only. These are the actual species of nitrifying bacteria. All other 'bacteria in a bottle' products do not have the proper species of bacteria. If you use one of the right products you might not need to do the full fishless cycle at all. Maybe just feed the bacteria for a few days until the store gets in the fish you want. 

3) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This is the non-sudsing, no-fragrance-added ammonia that is often found in a hardware store, discount stores, and sometimes in a grocery store. The concentration of ammonia may not be the same in all bottles. Try adding 5 drops per 10 gallons, then allowing the filter to circulate for about an hour, then test. If the reading isn't up to 5 ppm, add a few more drops and test again. (Example, if your test reads only 2 ppm, then add another 5 drops) Some ammonia is such a weak dilution you may need to add several ounces to get a reading. 

4) Test for ammonia daily, and add enough to keep the reading at 5 ppm. 

5) Several days after you start, begin testing for nitrites. When the nitrites show up, reduce the amount of ammonia you add so the test shows 3ppm. (Add only half as much ammonia as you were adding in part 4) Add this reduced amount daily from now until the tank is cycled. 

If the nitrites get too high (over 5 ppm), and seem to stay up for several days or a week, not coming down, reduce the amount of ammonia you are adding, or even skip a day. If this does not budge the nitrites, then a partial water change may help. It can happen that the bacteria growth is slowed because of the high nitrites. 

6) Continue testing, and adding ammonia daily. The nitrates will likely show up about 2 weeks after you started. Keep monitoring, and watch for 0 ppm ammonia, 0 ppm nitrite and rising nitrates. 

7) Once the 0 ppm ammonia and nitrites shows up it may bounce around a little bit for a day or two. Be patient.
You can test the system by adding more than a regular dose of ammonia, and it should be able to handle it. 
If you will not be adding fish right away continue to add the ammonia to keep the bacteria fed. 

8) When you are ready to add the fish, do at least one water change, and it may take a couple of them, to reduce the nitrate to safe levels (as low as possible, certainly below 10 ppm) 

9) You can plant a tank that is being cycled this way at any point during the process. If you plant early, the plants will be well rooted, and better able to handle the disruption of the water change. 
Yes, the plants will use some of the ammonia and the nitrates. They are part of the nitrogen handling system, part of the biofilter, they are working for you. Some plants do not like high ammonia, though. If a certain plant dies, remove it, and only replace it after the cycle is done.

This method grows so much bacteria that you can fully stock the tank. If you do not fully stock it then the bacteria start dying off.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanks again Diana, once again you have fed me with all the info I need! Shame I just opened a new thread which has asked all the questions you have answered here! Thanks!

Just one thing though I have an ammonia product here that is only ammonia and water and is 9.5% ammonia. Will this be ok for the 5 drops per 10g or not? Thanks!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Someone who's better than I in chemistry may come along and do the math for you.

Personally I just add a little and test, add a little and test... till you get to 2-4ppm (or 5ppm is also fine like Diana suggested... I usually just shoot for anywhere between 2-4 ppm each day.)


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

lauraleellbp said:


> Personally I just add a little and test, add a little and test... till you get to 2-4ppm (or 5ppm is also fine like Diana suggested... I usually just shoot for anywhere between 2-4 ppm each day.)


How much is a little? The solution of ammonia I have is 9.5% ammonia. So would 5 drops a time be ok? Thanks!


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Ok as of now I have just added a load of SafeStart bacteria which was kept properly. Ive added my ammonia of which is 5ppm in my water. Hoping for a speedy cycle! Will keep everything updated! Thanks!


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Ok, I have been cycling my tank now for 3 days. The ammonia went down on the third day by 1ppm so I dosed more to keep it at 4ppm. I was just wondering when will the nitrites start showing up due to I tested for them today and they were 0ppm. Thanks!


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Concerning the fish in which Im going to stock the tank with. Would it be posible to add the two Rams about 2 weeks after the Harlequins and the Plecos? This is becuase I will be away for 10 nights and I know Rams can be delicate and I would rather be there to monitor them. The other fish will be fed and cared for though whilst Im gone though. But will adding the Rams last bring out aggression in them or stress them out too much? Thanks!


----------



## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

I agree that you should be home to monitor the tank after adding any new fish. Always a good idea to stock a new tank slowly and give it time to adjust to any added bioload before adding more fish. If you are headed out of town but feel you must add some fish before you leave I suggest adding only the plecos. They are poop machines and will have the largest impact on the bioload. When you get back add the Harlequins and then wait another week to two weeks to add the rams since they are going to be the most sensitive about water quality. Rams should not be stressed out if you have enough hiding places for them. My guess is that you do not have a quarantine tank so you have to be extra careful.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Thats what Im going to do now. Im going to get someone to dose ammonia whilst Im away to feed the bacteria due to no fish in the tank and when I return I will stock it. 

But I think I have changed my mind on the Rams though. After doing some more research they seem to be sensitve to pH and other factors. So I may wait till I have a larger tank until I stock with the Dwarf Chiclid varieties. 

Instead Im going to put in one male Betta Splendens and two females. There a nice hardy fish and Im sure will suit my setup alot better. Will they be ok with the Espei Harlequins, Amano Shrimp and the Pitbull Plecos? Thanks!


----------



## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

From everything I know about betta splendens, what you are planning is not going to work. A male/ female pair MIGHT be able to be kept together as long as there are plenty of hiding places. Females should be kept together in a minimum group of 3 females - if you only have 2 the dominant one will probably pick on the other one relentlessly. Splendens are very territorial and will fight to the death regardless of the sex of the fish. Any time you house bettas together you must be prepared to separate them and have housing for any fish that cannot get along in the community. 

There are more peaceful species of betta out there that are better suited to living with each other. I suggest you do a bit of research before making any purchase and again, be sure you have a place to house any betta if there is too much aggression in the tank.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

There's no way you have room for a male and 2 female Betta splendens unless you put dividers in your tank to keep them apart. I wouldn't even try mixing males and females together in the same tank in less than a 55gal, and even that is iffy. 

Don't put any bettas at all in the tank unless it's completely covered- they're notorious jumpers.

I personally also wouldn't put a pleco in a tank this small just b/c they're such a large bioload fish. You'll need to maintain 50% weekly water changes with no slacking if you do get a pleco and you want to keep your water parameters in good shape.

What about this:

6-7x Harlequin rasporas
2-3x Amano shrimp
1x Betta splendens (A female or male plakat betta would be ideal. You may be ok with a long-finned male, but could end up with nipped fins or depending on your filter setup may have too much current for a long-finned.) Petco usually carries plakat and female bettas.


----------



## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

And again I want to stress that even a single betta in a community tank may not work out and you need to have another setup to house it in if it doesn't. I've never tried a male in a community but I've tried single females before - most of them got along fine with the other fish but I had one mean girl who chased the other fish, nipped some fins, and stressed the whole tank out. She ended up in her own 5 gallon tank.

Oh yeah and I agree about the pleco not being a good idea - I missed that part of your post I guess. I have a BN pleco in my 40ish gallon hex and even that seems kind of small for him. Even the smaller plecos get pretty large and produce alot of waste.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Really? I find it strange that you have had alot of bad experience with mixing males and female bettas. Its done alot here and always seems successful. My friend has a riparium with about 8 gallons of water with 3 corys, 1 BN Pleco, 3 female bettas and a male betta. Never had any trouble. I must say now with what you have said I am a bit wary of adding them. Just to remind you although the thread is initially tittled to be a 14 gallon I actually found out its a 17 gallon and people have said my dimensions are what are sold as 20 gallons in the states.


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Are there any other Ideas for 2 small signiture fish in my setup? So far it looks like a male Betta and maybe a female. Thanks!


----------



## luke20037 (Jan 24, 2010)

Just to imput on this thread, I have had a male and a female betta splenders in my tank which was filled so 18 gallons for a year and no trouble, I have decreased the water to less than half and now have 3 females and one male, have had no trouble what so ever, the females "follow" the male as if they are his hareem of females


----------



## AoxomoxoA (Apr 22, 2010)

I've had male Bettas in community tanks many times. Usually no problem as long as nobody looks like another male betta or a shrimp.

I have one now who chases one of my GBR's a lot tho...


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Ive read alot in which is simalr to _dirtyhermit's_ post. As long as the other fish do not look similar to the Male Betta then all is fine. But I still heard very little over here of problems with female bettas with males. Anyone had any issues with this or not? Thanks!


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I've already given you my 2cents.

You can ask plenty of other betta keepers yourself: www.ultimatebettas.com


----------



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Ive been doing a fair bit of research with a friend *Luke20037* and we have came up with a theory. We went to several LFS's to look at the Bettas in which they stock. Some stocked them in community tanks with other small to even TINY fish in the same tank, yet the Betas (male) showed no sign of aggression and even showed signs of happyness. We even went to one LFS to find a tank about 7g with a male betta, a honey gourami and 4 dwarf gourami fighters. A mix that no one would recommend. 

But when we visted shops in which the bettas had their individual small tanks (as they do in the states alot more than they do here) we noticed the Betta's flared more towards movement in which could lead to aggression in a tank with other fish. I suppose its similar to a human who has been kept in a cell to his/her self for a long time, when there out there going to be angry (or hungry in a fishes case) and start to be anti-social to others! So I think I could pull it off depending on where I got my Betta from;

1) From an LFS in which has kept it with other small fish = GOOD
2) An isolated Betta, which I dont think is a good idea = BAD

Has anyone else noticed this or have Betta's with females and other small fish? Thanks!


----------

