# Auto Trickle Water change & fertilizer



## tina vollmer (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi, Newbie here.

We have an automatic trickle water change system on our 135gal planted tank. I wondered how to manage dosing fertilizer with this system and if anyone here has a similiar set up. We do not have CO2 injection. I have not had any real problem with algae but we just got the T5 light system 2 1/2 weeks ago because I did not see good growth with the plants under the old light system (160watts total with reflector). I use tap water, the quality seems good for both fish and plants

PH 7.3 to 7.5 with a good buffer
Phosphate .25
GH 180ppm
Kh 180ppm
Nitrates less than 20ppm
Nitrites 0
Ammonia 0

If anyone here has any advice for me on a fert schedule and the types of ferts to use I would really love it. Right now, since the tests seem to indicate we can grow plants I am just watching Plant/Alage growth and tweeking as needed. 

135gal
Substrate: 1 1/2" 50/50 flourite/pool filter sand
1 1/2" 100% pool filter sand
Trickle waterchanger: 125% per week= 24 gallons daily
Temp 84'
Filter: Trickle Wet/Dry- 25 watt UV 
Lights: T5HO 2x 39watt 6500k/2x 39 actinic 12 hours 7:30am to 7:30pm
T5HO 4x 39watt 6500k 6hours 10:30am to 4:30pm
LED 6 watt Moon lights 12hours all night

1/4 cup salt daily= 1 TBsp per 5 gallons
30ml water conditioner every third day
1 x weekly vac
1 Dose Leaf Zone per week
API root tabs- Swords, Val, Chain sword, Madagascar Lace 1 per 3 months

Plants: forgive me, I don't have all the technical names:
2 types Amazon Sword
Chain sword
Italian Val
Jungle Val
Anubias Barteri
Crypt wendti
Java fern
Java Moss
Watersprite
Purple Cobomba
Madagascar Lace-(impulse purchase I know it's difficult)
Anubias(some kind of vertical leaf) 

Fish:
2 Angelfish dollar size
9 cardinal tetras
5 panda cories
6 julii cories
1 golden nugget pleco
1 albino bushynose longfin pleco
6 SAE
6 harlequin rasbora
4 german blue rams
6 3" to 6" Discus waiting in the quarantine tank
Some kind of snail that came in on the plants despite careful rinsing..should I get rid of them?

Thanks for any contributions,
Tina


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## tina vollmer (Jun 15, 2010)

Sorry, forgot about one other plant..ludwiegia I think..small leaf.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You likely should have added CO2, not more light.
With CO2 enrichment, your plants can survive and thrive on much less light.

This is because the plants spend all their resources gathering light instead of the suffering on limited CO2. so they have far more resources to nab all the light.

This allows the plants grow more and much more efficiently with less light.

You are actually doing exactly what you should not: add high light and then add ferts without CO2..........

T5's are about 2x more intense per watt that the T12 bulbs you had on the tank before.

More light is NOT better.

Light drives => CO2 demand, which in turn drives => nutrient uptake.
More light without CO2, is a bad recipe.

You should either get CO2, or use less of the T5 lights(1/2 of them).

I have less than your light and have CO2.


















Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## tina vollmer (Jun 15, 2010)

*CO2 level*

Beautiful tank!! Thanks for the help. If you don't mind I'd like to pick your brain again. 

I would like to understand how this relates to my water testing so I can adjust to any changes in the test results correctly.

According to the CO2 calculator I found my CO2 level is 15ppm. I thought this was an acceptable level for plants to grow? What should the level be with my light system and my plant load. I was not having good growth and the leaves looked a bit too clear. I read this was most likely due to lack of light if all other water perameters were okay. 

Thanks so much for the help!


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## tina vollmer (Jun 15, 2010)

*adding carbon*

Also, couldn't I just add something like Seachem's Excel to increase carbon if I need more, without having to get an injection system set up.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

tina vollmer said:


> Beautiful tank!! Thanks for the help. If you don't mind I'd like to pick your brain again.
> 
> I would like to understand how this relates to my water testing so I can adjust to any changes in the test results correctly.
> 
> ...


I'd not rely too much on CO2 measurements indirectly.
pH/KH etc..........

I'd use those to get what I think is "close". then, from there, you watch the plants, and slow and progressively slight adjust the needle valve up a tad more.

If you have wood, peat etc, any other PO4 type "Buffers" to adjust pH, then this will/can toss the chart for pH/KH/CO2 wayyyy off.

You do not have 15ppm of CO2 in this tank without adding CO2, you have about 0 to 2ppm depending on time of day.

Plants will butcher themselves up to add new Carbon to the tips.
Think of the "older leaves" as "storage organs".

Also, give this a very good read.
Try your best to understand all of this.
It will help you to put together all the pieces of what makes an aquatic plant grow.

http://www.tropica.com/advising/technical-articles/biology-of-aquatic-plants/co2-and-light.aspx

If you look at this matrix, you will see that even with low light/low CO2, you still get some growth, but you get lots more with more CO2/light.








Nutrients are non limiting in this case, so they have no effect on the results.

You might have to simple take this all on faith right now.
But the tank I showed has a wet/dry, I do one large water change a week.
I seal up(eg gafers' or duct tape) the air vents in the wet/dry chamber to prevent degassing of the enriched CO2, and then have a high water level in the overflow box, about 2" below the tank surface. 

This way I have high O2+ high CO2 during the day, and low CO2(turn it off at night) and still have high O2 at night.

I use less light, I can grow and garden more species, have better health and less algae. I can also load up the fish, just like a discus owner, since I do frequent good size water changes.

Automation of the water change makes it very easy for you.
I'd set the water change to occur about 1 hour after the lights are on. 

Now, you can still go non CO2............but I think any time folks start adding more light, they really want more growth/healthier growth and species that tend to compete poorly together. So all of that = CO2 enrichment.

Your bottle neck is CO2, not light in other words.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## tina vollmer (Jun 15, 2010)

*Making some adjustments*

Okay..so I think I am beginning to understand how all this relates.

You've been so kind to respond..thank you so much. You can tell I,m a real newbie, I had no idea who you were, something of a celebrity in this world. I am always skeptical when getting advice online but it seems I got the horses mouth right from the start.

In that case some more dumb questions please..lol.

We cut our lights back to half on a twelve hour sched. Would you recommend continuous or breaking this up into shifts as some people suggest and if so how does this help? 

Our water changer works on a trickle all day and night continuously, totaling about 24 gallons a day. I wondered how this might effect my dosing. Any other suggestions on controlling carbon/oxygen exchange day vs night? I also wondered about the type of dosing needed because we are constantly adding in new water and trace elements. 

Right now, the tabs I am using contain trace elements and iron. The Leaf Zone I am adding once per week contains potassium sulfate K2O 3% and Chelated iron Fe .10% 

I am not sure whether I should be adding Phosphates or Nitrate, some say phosphates should be kept at 1, others say do not bother if you do frequent water change the plants have all they need of both and iron/potassium fert is all you need. Our nitrate reading is a consistent 0.

I notice a definate perk up after the leaf zone, especially the Val/Chain Sword/Ludwegia and almost immediate beginnings of growth which slows down through the week until I dose again. I also noticed, however, a small amount of diatom algae on the plant tips and glass a day or two after dosing. Our clean up crew seems to take care of most of it and our weekly vac gets the rest, although I would like to eliminate the cause as the Madagascar lace needs all the photosynthesis it can get. The tank is cycled thoroughly so I am guessing it is either a light issue or perhaps the silicates in the sand substrate along with not quite enough plants to out compete.

We do have some driftwood but we do not add peat or any any buffers to the water. The PH is rather stable already, although there is more fluctuation from morning before lights are on to evening since I began fertilizing. The PH actually went down to 7 in the morning and then up to consistent levels in the evening at 7.3 to 7.4. 

The dynamics of the thing will change of course when we add the discus to the tank as they will surely produce more nitrate.

Also read about the redox balance and adding magnesium/calcium to the water to enhance reduction process. What are your feelings regarding the use of wonder shells etc? 

I would absolutely love to add a carbon injection system but it's just going to have to wait for now. The best I can do is get some good advice from fine people like yourself and try to get the best result with the resources that I have.

So I guess I will keep adjusting light/carbon balance as necessary and perhaps you can give a few recommendations on which ferts we should be dosing and a schedule that would work for our trickle water change system

Thanks so much for your time.


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## tina vollmer (Jun 15, 2010)

*Great artical*

The article you linked was very helpful, by the way.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Your GH is already way up there. Unless you know that the calcium is too low I would not add anything else that might raise the GH any more. "Wonder Shells" or anything else.

I would quit adding salt. This is a fresh water tank, not salt water or brackish. 

If the plants perk up when you add Leaf Zone then add it more frequently. Or else go with the dry ferts: K2SO4 for potassium and chelated iron. 

When you buy Leaf Zone you are paying to ship water with just a tiny bit of fertilizer in it from the manufacturer to the store. Simply buy the fertilizer directly. Much cheaper. 

As for the basic question, how to handle ferts under a constant water change system: Tablets in the substrate are great. Adding ferts to the water will work just fine for you since you are changing so little of the water. 1 gallon per hour out of 135 is almost nothing. 

Yes, add the Excel and see what happens. Some plants do not seem to like it very well, though. Perhaps just add the daily dose without the loading dose.


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## tina vollmer (Jun 15, 2010)

*Update Vollmer Tank*

Well thanks for the advice.. here is an update if anyone is interested.

Switched to Seachem Flourish, began using Excel, ordered some other Seachem supplements. I think the plants need a bit more iron, we'll see. I'm going to play with some of the other Ferts and see what kind of results I can get.

Stepping up the Fert schedule has helped and I believe the Excel is also making a difference. I'm seeing more growth. I have not had any die off from the Excel dosing.

However, I have noticed that somebody in there has decided to supplement their diet from time to time with some of my young sword leaves.. I think it must be the Golden Nugget Pleco, not sure though...he only come out at night.

Here are some pics..tell me what you think, and of course any comments or advice is welcome.


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