# 33 Long Window Tank



## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

That already looks great! I love the photos with the light shining through. Gives it a dreamy look since it's a little cloudy lol.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I put some sweet potato vine cuttings on the new window tank. 








It's in second stage of cycle- I have zero ammonia, and nitrite spiking. Food I've been dropping in growing mold or fungus- ugh, I hate that part. But it's progressing, and the snails are chowing down. Perry is getting a daily gallon water change on the bin while he waits...


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Here's Perry in waiting - the new tank is still cycling- nitrities are even higher today.








And here's his new lady friend.








I brought her home yesterday. Kept the tank covered and room dim- she spent most of the time going round and round the perimeter of the tank, exploring all the boundaries it looked like. 








Difficult to get a photos, but I tried anyway. 








Today she is much calmer- now inquisitive and will cautiously come up to eye me through the glass.








She's much stouter in body than Perry, and more speckled than striped, and duller in color with a pale throat and belly. Charming in her own way, I think.








I thought she looked perfectly healthy in the store, but when I got her home, alarmed to see a white mark on her head- not fuzzy like fungus so I think it got bumped when the employee rather abruptly dumped her from the specimen container into the shipping bag. I hope she just grazed her scales- it does seem to be improving already on this second day.








I don't know if it is worrisome that the side of her head looks a bit reddish- I can't quite tell if this is part of her natural coloration or not. I didn't notice it until looking at the photos. Doing daily partial wc on her QT for the time being.








She ate flake on the second day I had her home, and then I gave her some mosquito wigglers. That made her colors intensify! She went about hunting them in the leaf litter, much more methodically than Perry ever does. Later I was using celery for dinner, so blanched a few leaves and minced them fine. Perry ate his, my serpae tetras in the 20H squabbled over theirs. I offered a few bits to the new female. She cautiously tried it, kept spitting out. I bet the flavor is new.

I should not get too fond of her already. The likelihood that my two paradise fish will just fight (or that Perry will harrass the female) is high- although the fact that she was not aggressive to other fishes in the shop tank makes me hopeful it will work out. Also having a tank with much larger footprint that they will both be introduced to at the same time. I _really_ would like to find a second female- the chances of it working out are much better with a trio than just a pair- so Perry can divide his attentions- but this is the first I'd ever seen a female in person- so I doubt I'll come across another anytime soon.

Also, I also know she's already two or three years old. Some sites say the best to hope for a paradise fish is three years. Others cite five years as average, and eight with good care... I just can't tell how long I might have her.

Oh, and she likes the clay pottery cave. She creeps into it, rests for a while, slides out again. So I'm probably going to move it into the home tank with her, it will be her own space.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Things are still hazy. Nitrites climbed even higher- so it's coming along!








I know this is bound to happen, but it's still dismaying to see the plants going through shock. Hornwort shedding leaves like crazy- now just a bunch of threading stems with a few plumes on the ends. Crypts are melting, especially my lutea and undulata. Bolbitis ferns look awful, and vals are turning translucent, yellowish brown- melting, too. But I am hopeful- quite a few have bright new green peeking out at their base. There's new leaves sprouting in the center of the crypt becketti








New leaf in the center of crypt cordata (which otherwise looks particularly unhappy today)








and quite a few of the anubias nana petite also unfolded a new leaf each- so I hope most will recover








of all things, the ludwigia doesn't seem to mind the changes at all- seems fine as far as I can tell








I added a new plant! Found it at the same lfs as my female paradise gourami. Crinum calamistratum (onion plant). I've wanted one for a long time (it wasn't cheap. The shop guy said they rarely get them in, anymore). I put it in the foreground, to the left. I hope it has enough room. I know it won't be able to get _tall_ in this tank, but I want it to go sprawling out tangling through everything!








Two left-side pics I took with different camera settings.


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## Fisherking (Feb 27, 2012)

Another great thread. Having gotten the idea from you, I've been using tufts of sweet potato vine in my Betta tank and in a shrimp bowl because they grow roots so fast and I hope their fast growth will take up nitrates.

Have you been able to keep sweet potato vine alive all year round?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Fisherking said:


> Another great thread. Having gotten the idea from you, I've been using tufts of sweet potato vine in my Betta tank and in a shrimp bowl because they grow roots so fast and I hope their fast growth will take up nitrates.
> 
> Have you been able to keep sweet potato vine alive all year round?


I definitely think they help with nitrate uptake. I love 'em. 

No, mine don't keep all year round, but that is because my tank location doesn't get direct sunlight in the winter. So for winter time, I move sweet potato vine into pots in a southwest window and instead put coleus cuttings on the tank. Coleus also grows roots out fairly quickly, prefers indirect light, and it keeps my cuttings very healthy thru winter until it's time for_ those_ to get potted up to go outside or spend the summer as houseplants. Then I put new sweet potato cuttings on the tank again for summer- it rotates around.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*I showed my fishes to each other*

I thought it might help them get acquainted through the glass. I moved Perry's bin downstairs to sit next to the females' ten gallon QT. Since the salvinia minima is starting to look poorly, and it would have even less light downstairs, I took all the floaters out of the bin and put them in the cycling tank. And because I had removed so much of Perry's plants, I put into his bin a small reserve sponge filter out of the 45, on a splitter from the same air pump that runs the QT. It was a bit of disruption for Perry, he hid behind the old filter media panel in his bin, so I kept a cardboard panel between the tanks, and left them alone for half the day.

Late afternoon, Perry was acting perky again, coming up to the bin sides looking interested, when a person approached. I slid the cardboard panel out to see how they'd react. They noticed each other right away. The female colored up- red tail and stripes showing! My photos are poor due to the low light and semi-translucent sides of the bin but here's what I got- female:








Perry displayed too, stunning fish. They swam up and down the sides eyeing each other and flaring, instensely interested.








I tried to get a few photos of them looking at each other through the sides, that was difficult to catch.
















The female was curving her body towards him, and sometimes waggling her tail. I don't know what that body language means, but at some point they both just sort of stopped- each lying near the bottom on their side, facing each other, not moving. I wondered if Perry was feeling overwhelmed, or tired from the excitement? When I put the partition up again, the female soon relaxed, dulled her colors and swam around her tank again, kept coming back to the side where she'd last seen Perry, as if wondering where he went.








Perry remained very still on the bottom for much longer. Then he went and hid behind the old media panel again. I don't know if any of this indicates they will get along or not, but I'm giving them a good break for now and will see how they react again later. It's probably going to be several more days before the cycle in the new tank finishes; if they can get used to the sight of each other in the meantime, then I hope things will go smoother when I actually introduce them into the same tank.


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## Fisherking (Feb 27, 2012)

So they're in separate tanks now and both going to the 33 once it cycles?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Fisherking said:


> So they're in separate tanks now and both going to the 33 once it cycles?


Yes, that's the plan!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

The female's head is healed. She is _very_ interested in Perry- emphatically tries to swim at him through the glass, so much I worry she may injure her face! I can't tell if she's just eager to be with him, or wants to attack.








He alternates between calmly eyeing her








and flaring his gorgeous tail








He quit hiding after the first day, and I haven't seen either one of them lie down again. Of the two Perry certainly seems less aggressive, but when it's time to put them together I will have a divider and a net handy, and keep the 10 cycled and running, in case it doesn't work (which would be such a shame, after all the effort). Their intended home, the 33 long, is still cycling- high on nitrites. Plants are growing back, though!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

great looking tank! hopefully they can be in the tank together soon!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*still cycling...*

Plants are doing better than I expected. The new leaf on crypt cordata was already there when I moved the plant, so I feared it would loose that and start over- but instead the leaf is slowly unfurling. It's adjusted well.








I also thought the change would be a bit hard on my aponogeton capuronii. Yes, a lot of the leaves are turning brown and melting, but a good number have kept their green, and there is a tiny new spear of leaf in the center. You cannot see it, but behind the capruonii near the substrate I have wedged the last piece of moss shelf I tried to make. It all died in the old 38, and most of it died in the 20H after the changes. There are just a few strands left on one plastic mesh shelf, which I moved in here for the heck of it. But I don't want to look at the plastic part, so I hid it.








Crinum has a new leaf emerging!








Crypt becketti is doing great








Crypt willisii holding on








Crypt undulata had the worst melt, it's also in a spot hard to get a photo of. But even that one has some new leaf growth.








Vals had such severe melt for a few days it was just a mess of brown yuck. Now springing back!








I thought ludwigia were doing fine, but new leaves on top of the stems are much brighter, showing me they had some adjustment to go through as well.








Awkward side view of that








Hornwort was so lovely, now it looks sparse.








Salvinia minima doing great, though.








Not sure why most of it seems clustered in the same corner as the filter.








New roots busting out on sweet potato vine all across the back of the tank.








I haven't cleaned up any dying plant mess because I figure the decay is feeding the cycle. It's sure feeding the snails (along with the bit of fish food I drop in each day). Ramshorns are multiplying. Well, if they start to decrease in numbers when the paradise fish go in, I'll know for sure they're getting eaten.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

It's all in buckets again :frown2:

















Because of this: help are my tank seams ok?

I'm paranoid I guess. It could be nothing- or it could bust open several years down the road. I just can't live with the possibility- worrying about that every time I look at my tank, instead of enjoying it. I'm taking it in for a replacement today. It means all day work teardown and setup again.

The cycle had _almost_ finished- nitrites dropped suddenly from being off-the-chart to less than 0.25ppm yesterday. I was ready and poised to do the big water change, clean up the plants, and introduce the paradise fishes a day later. Now it will be a bit longer. Better safe than sorry, though. It would always be on my mind if I didn't replace it now.

I've done something different with my paradise fish in the basement. Every day I put a few drops of water from each fish tank into the other- so they can get each other's scent and hormones or whatever. I am curious if it would be helpful for the introduction, and it does get a reaction. The female tries even harder to get through the glass and flexes her lips at Perry. The male doesn't extend his mouth, but flares his tail while turning colors pale. I am still wondering if this will work out... . . .


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## zmartin (May 1, 2018)

That’s really disappointing. I trust you’ve arranged the replacement before tearing it down? But agreed better to sort now. As rewarding as aquariums are - the hobby certainly tests patience a lot of the time.

Good luck with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

zmartin said:


> That’s really disappointing. I trust you’ve arranged the replacement before tearing it down? But agreed better to sort now. As rewarding as aquariums are - the hobby certainly tests patience a lot of the time.
> 
> Good luck with it.


Yes- I asked the shop if they had another in stock before I took everything down and went in. I got the replacement around noon and spent the rest of the day setting it up, leak test for a few hours, making sure it was still level, replanting. Wow, I'm tired. I think it looks nice though, and there are no sign of worrisome gaps or bubbles in the seams. First tank was probably ok really but I'm not the kind of person who can relax about that kind of thing... . . Tomorrow after the tank settles- it's very cloudy again now- I will test it, see if the cycle got set back any, and take a few photos (plants are arranged a bit differently).

It was _very_ stinky, btw. I am not sure if it is because I used fish food to cycle- that always makes a foul odor- or because the old substrate is a mess (but the plants love it, most have bounced back from their initial melt) and the sticks are starting to rot. I guess it was kind of a good thing to have to do this teardown, the substrate got a second rinse whether I wanted to or not, and I rubbed mushy layer off the wood pieces. Pretty soon I'm going to get a new bag of safe-t-sorb and prep it, then replace the substrate a fourth at a time. . . . and probably replace the wood with new pieces from my yard, too.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*take two*

on my 33 gal window tank- took it in for the replacement, new tank checks out fine. Ready for a lot of photos? When I first got the replacement tank home, double-checked it was still level on the stand, wiped it down (dusty) and filled with half saved tank water, half new (a lot of the saved water was very dirty/foul from the disturbed substrate) and put all the plants in- just let them float or sink as will. Left it that way for hours, to verify no leaks (or air pockets showing up in seams). Crypt cordata had a small stone tied to a few roots, so it was a sinker:








Just because I could, I took a photo from underneath the tank, looking up thru the momentarily-bare bottom at a bunch of bolbitis fern. Bolbitis always looks rather dull or brown when backlit in the tank, nice to see that most of it is actually still green!








After half a day, when I was satisfied with the tank's integrity, I added the substrate and put the filter back in (they'd been sharing space in a bucket). Then started planting. Here's that same crypt cordata with its roots covered.








Results, after hours of work:








Here's my crinum replanted, in window light-








and with backdrop (cardboard panels temporarily propped behind the tank to get some better photos)-








The layout is more or less the same (well, I moved the sticks around). I took Lady's (female paradise fish) ceramic cave and took Perry's windelov ferns, out of their temporary homes. Tied ferns on the cave and moved it into the tank.








Most of the taller crypts are replanted here, short end behind the cave- I unthinkingly mixed some crypt becketti petchii in with the undulata. Oops. Wasn't looking close enough. Might separate them out later.








Crypt becketti replanted in the foreground-








Vallisneria are mostly all on the right end, where the light is better. I noticed before, the ones on left wide near filter, weren't too happy.








Another clump of java fern windelov I pulled from Perry's bin, in front of the ludwigia thicket.








Pic of righthand short end- vallisneria with ludwigia behind. Ludwigia repens var arcuata has done remarkably well with the changes, btw. I think it's happier in the unheated, window-lit tank.








I was really glad to see my aponogeton capuronii is no worse for wear, either. I expected to remove a lot of dead leaves when doing this tank-change, but the apono only needed two culled.








Up top: salvinia minia is looking fine- only a few brown leaves








Hornwort is starting to grow back








All the sweet potato vine cuttings now have strong white roots








Full angle shots- from the right side:








and the left:








View from my couch- with the backdrop still on








But this is how my camera takes it, with the usual setup (no backdrop, just three layers of translucent plastic- two on the back of the tank and one on the lower window pane).








Almost ready for the fishes! It's a good sign, I think, that my nerite snail (I forgot it was in here) crawled back down from the water line and is exploring at substrate level. I'm going to move this snail either into the 20H or the 45, though. It won't do the cold of winter.









Water parameters this morning: slight Ammonia spike 0.25ppm, Nitrite almost at zero less than 0.25, Nitrates 20. Not much of a setback!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*Day before yesterday*

I introduced my paradise fishes to the tank. They sparred immediately. I wish I'd filmed it, but my camera battery was dead. For a long time they went in slow spirals broadside to each other, fins and operculum flared, shaking their heads and thrusting tails at each other. Darting and dashing at each other, circling close. Locked lips and drifted down as they tested each others' strength. Didn't seem to actually be getting torn apart, so I let them try and settle it. When things appeared to be getting frenzied, I put a stick in the water between them. Then Lady followed Perry close around the tank, pushed him into a corner. For a long time he cowered behind the filter box.

Then a curious thing, she came up behind the filter box and just lay on the substrate, facing him, a few centimeters away. They rested like that just staring at each other- Lady breathing hard, Perry slowly beginning to flare his fins. She moves around the tank now exploring, darting to the surface, attacking and eating ramshorns. If Perry leaves his corner she chases him back. It went on and off again like that for hours. No more lip wrestling or circling, but Lady definitely seems to think its all hers-








As far as I can tell, there's no serious damage. Lady has a scrape on the top of her head, and a few scales missing on her right side above the pectoral fin.








Perry has nips on both sides, but nothing major. He seems very intimidated, though.








It occurred to me later, of course they are probably both stressed as much due to the new environment as finally meeting each other, so I put up background panels to dim the tank. Perry ventured out of hiding, and Lady promptly chased him back. The blur is his red tail- she's the shadow right behind.








I am doubtful, but I do hope they can work it out. I take it as a good sign nobody had their fins ripped yet, but it wouldn't be a happy situation if Lady kept Perry in the corner all the time, and he constantly felt stressed or is bullied from the food. I'll have to wait and see, keep a close eye on them, do frequent water changes for a while (I've heard this reduces the hormones and things fish release in the water to signal to each other, and can reduce aggression for angels- so why not for paradise fish too). Meanwhile, I've kept the 10g quarantine tank running in the basement, with snails and plants, so if it gets bad between them, I can move one fish out.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

They kept fighting. Lady continually kept Perry in the corner, if he ventured out to greet a human at the glass, or grab a bite of food, or surface for air, she zoomed over there and threatened him. My husband and I imagined what the fish might be thinking of the situation. I looked in the tank at him looking back at me and said

"What's the matter, Perry, are you okay? Is your new girlfriend being mean?"
Husband: "That's not my girlfriend."
Me: "What the hell is this? It was fine living next door, but I don't want to share her bedroom."
(No, I was never intending to breed them, if you're wondering.)

Once again I saw him spar with her, buffeting side by side, darting bites at each other. They both came away with more wounds. Lady now has injuries on her mouth, and two marks on her side.








Perry doesn't look as bad, but certainly is cowed.








Instead of putting her back in QT, I made a wall. Tank is now divided.








This is Lady's side-








And this is Perry's. Yes, I favored him, because she's the bully.








At first Perry would flee, tail low and pinched, when Lady zoomed at him from other side of the wall (they can see each other dimly through the mesh)








but once he realized she couldn't actually reach him, he seemed to relax








She's wearing much duller colors now, and no longer flaring her fins or making short, quick darting moves all over the tank.








He still often seems submissive when she tries to bite him through the barrier
















and darts away when she threatens too much








She leaped over the first barrier I made, out of plastic canvas scraps stitched together. It wasn't stiff enough. I think she went over the top. I netted her back into her own side, went to the store, bought a new piece of plastic canvas, came home, caught her again and put her in a box of water while I removed suction cups from the first wall and fastened them to the new one. Also softened the suction cups first in hot water, because a few of them weren't holding well. New wall seems a lot stronger. Later I was really surprised to find Perry on _her_ side. I guess he started to feel bolder since she couldn't bite him anymore, and wanting to defend his own space, got over the top? There was a quarter inch gap to the lid. I slid the barrier up all the way, and blocked the gap now across the bottom, with stones. It seems to hold. Haven't found anyone on the wrong side since.

(PS: the suction cups are actually clear/white. Not too noticeable when the tank is window-lit, but when I darken the background to get decent photos, they stand out. I masked over them roughly with photoshop just to avoid visual distraction in my pictures).


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Maybe I've been reading their body language or intentions wrong? This morning I found Perry on Lady's side again, cowering in a corner against the substrate. I netted him back to his own side, and blocked the bottom gap with another layer of stones (he'd pushed one aside). I wonder if he wants to mate, and she's just not having it.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

In the morning, Perry is on Lady's side again. In a corner, behind sweet potato roots, just under the surface. She doesn't seem to notice him. Is he sneaking in at night, hoping to avoid her wrath? I netted him back to his side and blocked the gap again- one small stone pushed aside. Maybe I should just leave him there if it happens again next morning, and she if she attacks or not. Maybe they're figuring it out.

I noticed he has a pale band across back, just behind the head. Alarmed it could be fungal, I dosed the tank with Kanaplex last night. Already this morning it was looking more normal color, his scales.


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## Fisherking (Feb 27, 2012)

JJ09, this should be a Netflix series!!!


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## lisals (Jun 21, 2017)

Lol... so dramatic. Crazy fish! I hope you can figure something out for them. So they can both live stress free. Poor Perry.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yeah. Its upsetting. They're both really determined. Once again I found Lady on his side- chasing him. Today found Perry on _hers_- with his tail split and dorsal fin frayed. I cut another piece of plastic canvas and wedged it between the stones to block the gap. If_ that_ doesn't keep them out of each other's space, I'll have to move her into the ten gallon.

Perry's had two doses of Kanaplex, and I ran out. He's looking better- more normal color across top of his head, but still a bit of paleness. I am doing a wc tomorrow and if it still looks suspicious, might dose with another anti-fungal. I'm sure all the stirrings-up of substrate every time I try to re-block that gap in their wall isn't helping.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I reinforced the wall between my paradise fishes. Wedged another piece of plastic canvas down between the row of stones, all the way to glass under substrate (which isn't deep). It seems to be holding. for two days now neither one has breached the wall. (They still keep trying, however).








I am surprised at how fast Perry has healed! I can't even tell now that two days ago his tail was split horizontally, forked almost all the way to the caudal peduncle. I was going to take a photo to show the damage Lady did to him, but it's hard to even see it now.








His dorsal which looked like a rooster's comb, is nearly healed up too. The pale band across his head is still there, but much fainter. I'm dosing the tank with Furan-2 now, to see if that helps it. A bit worried the tank will cycle again as following pkg instructions I removed the filter media (put it in a mesh bag and tucked into the tetra tank, so the bacteria won't all die) and left the airstones running. But it should bounce back quick, I think.
















Lady herself seems fine. Her scales have healed and the nicks on her lip are almost gone.


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

I always thought that paradise fish required a harem-type arrangement with one male and several females? I had a few growing up with different results. One was lovely albino male who was kept alone/with dither fish and did very well. The others were a male and several females as part of a 4ft community tank, originally at a 1:2 ratio but ended up being around 1:5 or so after a few years of breeding. The male would bully anything and everything, until he got older, when it seems that the females ganged up on him and finished him off. Can't blame them really.

Horror stories aside, I hope you can figure something out for them! It's a gorgeous tank and it's still early days for the pair.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

@Thelongsnail, yes, I think a harem situation would have more chance of success here. I'd much rather have two or three females, but this is the only one I've ever found for sale! so I wanted to try it, oh well. I'd heard of just a pair being kept, but maybe with more space or thicker plants than I have? They seem to have calmed down over the past few days, realizing they can't get through the wall anymore still display to each other but not as vigorously. I think Perry is not yet at mature size- having read the males are larger than females but he is still smaller than Lady. 

Perhaps later on when he is the larger fish, I might give it another attempt, but I am doubtful they could live in peace. And if they _did_ cohabit peacefully for a while, certainly after mating I'd have to separate the female again, when he became intent on guarding the fry? As I don't have any interest in raising baby fish, it doesn't seem worth the trouble to go through all that.

I am satisfied to have them each in their own little space, for now. I know the female is already three or maybe four years old, so she will reach the end of her life sooner, then I will remove the wall and Perry will have the run of the tank again.


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

It's a shame it doesn't seem to have worked, but nothing ventured nothing gained and all that. You've also not had any major injuries or deaths, so I'd consider this a relatively successful experiment even though you didn't get the results you were hoping for.

By the way, how are you keeping your algae down? I've set up a window tank recently and it's an algae farm and a half already.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thelongsnail said:


> It's a shame it doesn't seem to have worked, but nothing ventured nothing gained and all that. You've also not had any major injuries or deaths, so I'd consider this a relatively successful experiment even though you didn't get the results you were hoping for.


Thanks. I did think that, as they seem to heal really quickly and aren't actually _killing_ each other- it would be natural to let them just fight and settle it. But I got very distressed seeing Perry cower in a corner for days on end, and then get his tail ripped in half. It has healed up completely now, so maybe that's not such a big deal for him!



Thelongsnail said:


> By the way, how are you keeping your algae down? I've set up a window tank recently and it's an algae farm and a half already.


The window doesn't get direct sun, except for a short time late afternoon in winter. I have two layers of plastic across the back of the tank, and one on the lower window pane itself- so three layers of translucent plastic reducing the light. On very bright days in summer I also sometimes close the curtain. I have one nerite snail (moving out soon however) and a handful of malaysian trumpet snails in there who do a good job of eating algae.

I sometimes get soft green algae growing on the tank wall nearest the window, and the vallisneria and anubias leaves. I can tell because the baby trumpet snails start to gather there, and when I rub the glass my thumb comes green. In middle of summer I clean the glass once a week, it wipes off easy.

I don't dose any fertilizers, the plants get all they need from my substrate and the fish waste- that probably helps too. (Although I do admit my plant selection is limited and not all of them look so great, that's the tradeoff).

I also have sweet potato vine growing in the back of the tank- to be swapped out for coleus cuttings in winter- which take up extra nutrients as far as I can tell. When I first tried using them, the week the new cuttings sprouted roots, nitrate levels in the tank dropped by 20ppm.

I am not sure which of the factors above is _most_ helpful at keeping the algae at bay: limitations on light, limited nutrients, algae-eating critters, or nutrient-taking terrestrial plants? but since I do see algae showing up from time to time, I bet if one of those things suddenly changed, I'd see a lot more algae.


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## lazy999 (Aug 2, 2018)

Nice.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

After finishing the treatment of furan-2, I put media back in the filter, did water changes, waited a few days and then gave Perry a round of kanaplex. Lots of plants went through some serious melt. I guess the medication affected them, or the frequent wc during the antifungal treatment reduced nutrients too much? Anyway, I spent a lot of time cleaning out brown melted plant yuck today during water change. I can't tell if the meds did much good. The pale band across Perry's head is less obvious, but not all the way gone.








The black spot that was on his dorsal fin is gone, but now there's a small pale thing by his lip, under left eye. It looks like a skin tag- I can't tell if it's an external parasite or just a tear still healing from when he battled Lady. And of course I haven't been able to get a closeup photo of it. Most of my efforts today ended up a blur because he zoomed up and down the front glass hoping I'd feed him.








He and Lady still faceoff either side of their barrier very frequently. Perry doesn't flare as avidly, but they both try to bite each other hard through the wall.








I've noticed an odd thing lately- Lady's tail appears to be growing longer








and the tips are faintly blue- you can barely see it in this picture. I wonder if it has something to do with the food- I've been giving them bits of the frozen food each day when the angels are full, and occasionally some of the cichlid grow flake... maybe I shouldn't give them that








Hm, well, here's how plant cleanup went. I removed a ton of melted, brown frogbit. Also the entire bottom half of each ludwigia stem had completely disintegrated leaves- I trimmed and replanted tops.








The bolbitis ferns are looking messy- there's a lot of dying-back foliage but it clings stubbornly to the rhizomes. I haven't taken the time to go in with scissors, yet- I just swiped through the fronds with siphon each time I'm doing a cleaning, and get some stuff out but not nearly all. However, there is still some green in there!








Vallisneria is definitely growing back, after its severe melt. But not really looking good yet.
















One plant that doesn't seem bothered by much is the crypt becketti.








Also the buces are all doing fine, so I added another one out of the tetra's tank- it's just under this crypt becketti by the wall.








Windelov ferns are doing pretty much same as always- a few browning leaves which I remove each week, replaced by new ones growing out all the time...








Perry's side of the tank- photographed from a low side angle- trying to do something different.


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

Is it 100% certain that Lady is in fact a lady?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Good question! I've wondered that myself. After all, Perry took such a long time to develop the beautiful tail, I thought _he_ was a she, at first. I assumed Lady is female because of the dull colors and short tail when I first saw the fish in the store, and the employee told me she'd been in that tank for 2 or 3 years. I suppose the person could have been exaggerating, if it was only eight months or so.... and the fish is a late developer. Who knows.


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## Fisherking (Feb 27, 2012)

Still epic tank, full of action. So enjoyable to read your posts!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I swear Lady's tail is still getting longer and longer
















In this pic she's holding the caudal fins closed- usual resting position- but you can see the very tip has blue highlight.








Of course, it's still short compared to the glory of Perry's tail








Backlit- see how long his caudal extensions are!








Lady is still larger in body, and duller in color overall, than Perry.








Sometimes I wonder if she remembers her old home at the fish store. Does she miss that larger tank with denser plants and many fish to boss around? or does she prefer the quiet of her own space, and find it exciting to face off with Perry through the wall. Or is that stressful for her, having a conspecific right next door. I'll never know.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*loads of plant pictures*

My long tank looks kind of sparse, now.








I removed the sticks- they appeared to be rotting- and lifted out the mopani wood piece, cleaned off all the browned bolbitis fern. Most of the remaining, healthy fronds were on the ends of the rhizomes, 'walking' off the wood reaching for the tank floor. I trimmed a lot of those, reattached on top of the driftwood. It looks better in person.








Yes there are new fiddleheads in there- two left of center








Other plants- I am not sure how my crypt cordata is doing. It quit making new leaves, and all the existing ones are starting to melt. Maybe it doesn't like the cold, or perhaps it is still recovering from the hard time- two rescapes and then a few weeks of meds in the tank with fequent water changes had to be rough on them all.








Crypt beckettii is fine- even sprouting more new leaves!








Behind it in this overhead can see the subwassertang looks healthy too- even if its texture is small, and the greenness of bolbitis fronds.








Subwassertang against the front glass








Small new bolbitis fronds on the mesh wall- all that's left on these two rhizome pieces, but I hope it grows back well.








Vallisneria still looks messy. Every time I experimentally tug on a melting leaf to remove it, the whole plant starts to come up. So I leave them to disintegrate on their own, but it's taking a long time...








In the corner behind Perry's filter, crypts becketti petchii and lutea are growing back. I'm thinking of switching this filter out for a hydro sponge, same as I have in the 20H. So much easier to clean.








Crypt on Lady's side- tiny new leaf.








Buces








Anubias nana 'petite' does really well in here- lined up behind the crinum.








Which is doing an odd thing- it has three leaves that appear to be fused in center- comes from the base as three leaves, then together, then splits again near the tips- I wonder if they will separate entirely as it grows out?








Windelov ferns are same as always








Ludwigia repens var arcuata hasn't grown much since last trim and replant. The stem pieces of 'hygro species' melted as far as I can tell.








Side angle here shows in reflection- they are green, but bend a lot- either seeking light or shortage of something








Newer ludwigia palustris is doing okay- melting leaves at base but not nearly as fast as the hygro went








Up top, salvinia appears to have recovered- most of the leaves are green now, I don't see nearly as many deteriorating. But the hornwort has nearly all died off, there's only have one small stem left in here. It was so lovely before I moved the tank over. Will try to replace with pieces from the 20H.








I replaced all the peaky-looking sweet potato vine with new cuttings, and used some of the lime-orange coleus as well. Rooting nicely.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*Perry has grown*

I looked in the top of the 33 one morning and thought: what is that foamy stuff? and then I realized: it's Perry making a bubble nest! or trying, at least- the bubbles are in patches here and there. "Ho!" I said out loud, "Perry is feeling _flirtatious_!"

I've been watching their behavior at the dividing wall closely. They don't seem to bite at each other as much now- and usually it's Lady trying to bite. Perry tends to hold himself broadside and display, or sit just under his little bubble patch and fan his fins wide. I tried to get a few pictures to compare- I think he's nearly the same size as the female, now.

Poorly, backlit photos due to the window- this one taken from the couch:








from closer:








When I pointed out to my seven-year-old that Perry was nearly Lady's size and _perhaps_ it would work to take the wall away, she egged me on immediately: "_do_ it, _do_ it!" But I think it's safer to wait until Perry is obviously larger than Lady.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

As it gets closer to winter the window light is weaker, so I removed one of the plastic layers behind the tank. Now have to clean some algae off the front glass every week, but conversely my other plants appear to be doing a bit better. I removed the sweet potato vines and put more coleus cuttings across the back of the tank. Not sure if the change in light, or the removal of sweet potato roots is what gave the plants a bump- or things are just_ finally_ recovering well, from all the tank changes. But I'm starting to like this tank again.

I removed the aponogeton from this spot a few weeks ago- see updates on my 45. Planted a few crypts (they're undulata or lutea) in its place. Ludwigia palustris all melted away in here (but a few remain static in the 20H, and in the tenner they're growing new leaves).








Lady's side of the tank feels rather empty now, but I gave her back the clay cave. Stuck an anubias on top of it. Hoping that if I try a re-introduction, the clay arch will give her shelter from the male if needed- although I never see her making use of it yet, she didn't even check it out (that I saw).
















I added more crypts to this corner (from the 20H).








Crypt cordata is putting out a new leaf (very sturdy looking shoot) and some of the vals are getting greener, a bit taller.








The stuck-together leaves on the crinum unfurled- and they have all straightened out nicely. Bolbitis ferns on the little 'hillock' behind it show more green- also helps that I tucked some subwassertang behind the driftwood piece.









Inhabitants: Perry spreading his tail








Lady won't pause for her photo. She gets more excited than Perry when I am near the tank, now- zipping back and forth waggling her fins. (Excuse the rough photoshop job I did in the corner to mask the filter sponge from detracting focus in the picture).


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Dismayed I came home from travelling for 3 days to find Lady has something on her face: 








I have another post about it in the Fish section see does-my-paradise-fish-have-ich. Don't know if it's ich (looks a little different) or some other kind of parasite or skin condition. She acts fine- even more eager than Perry to eat. Doing a water change...


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Took some closeup photos while my paradise fish were confined in a salt bath today- see thread link in prior post. This pic is of Lady. I am always intrigued when I get a close overhead like this, and can see the lens of the fish's eye.








I notice on the lower lobe of Perry's caudal fin, the filament is shorter, ever since he and Lady fought- I don't know if it will ever grow out to equal length again. 








He really has become a handsome fish! I can admire his colors so much better in this situation, because in the backlit window tank, hard to see them well- unless I look from above or thru the short end (one downside to that setup).








I particularly like the blue edging on his anal fin...


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My Lady is almost all better. Here's a few pics I took yesterday-
















and of Perry:


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*paradise fishes backlit among their plants*

a few hasty, dim pics- Perry-








Lady-


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Some pics from when I had the tank dark (cardboard panels propped up behind it for a day). New crypt cordata leaf was unfurling-








later photo of same leaf:








It looks lush and healthy
















Smaller crypts in the left corner are starting to take root finally, and grow more new leaves








Photo of the crinum would look better if I'd moved my orange wastewater bucket out of reflection range!








angle from the other side-








crypt becketti-








Lady's side not nearly as attractive- but I do like the ludwigia- hope it grows taller- and the subwassertang in the back looks nice when the light is shining through it.









Finished last dose on the window tank past friday. Perry is super excited about food again- it's nice to see his appetite back. Lady has not shown spots for a week. Did a partial wc (5 gal) to begin removing the salt.








There's more algae now- I am not sure if because the plants weren't doing as well while meds were in the tank, or if winter sun hits the window different angle than summer, so I should have left the extra plastic layer on. I scraped all the glass and put the subwassertang back in.

Bought a new plant on a whim last week. This was a tissue culture packet of ludwigia arcuata. The leaves are tiny. I am pretty sure now that my unknown 'temple plant' was never ludwigia arcuata, unless this one changes form dramatically when it re-adjusts. I was intrigued to read that it does fine in temperatures down to mid sixties, so wanted to try it in my window tank. I also planted some in the betta tank.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

For a while I thought, Perry often sits still - either in a top corner of the tank, or substrate level behind his filter. I can't tell if he's sleeping more, lethargic in the winter chill, or feeling unwell. He was slower to eat- sometimes just didn't seem interested.








Lady's spunky as ever








Not sure if I should dose the tank anymore- doing a good substrate cleaning at water changes, have removed a third of the salt so far.








Here's a bit of the new ludwigia arcuata I planted. There's more in the background against the glass.








Three more bits of wisteria sprouted roots. I planted them- can just see leaf at substrate level in the center here.








I recently brought home a good amount of floaters from fish club- more salvinia minima and hornwort, very healthy-looking stuff. Most of it went straight into my window tank. Perry's demeanor immediately changed. I realized then, a lot of the plants had probably done poorly from to the medications I'd been using on the tank. Now that's mostly cleared out, the stem plants are perking up again and Perry once more races back and forth across the tank eager for his food. 

Here's the added plants- a lot more salvinia minima








Hornwort- pictured above and below
















my paradise fishes have colored up-








Perry especially seems more at ease. Pics from short end of the tank:


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*new thing!*

I'm so excited about this I'm checking the tank and taking pictures daily, almost as thrilled as when I found catfish fry. There is a bright green shoot unfurling behind the row of anubias nana in my window tank. I first saw it on monday, in the evening:








I thought something had fallen in the tank. Looking closer I saw it was very pale green, and appeared to be curled up, with a point.








Took me a minute to realize: it must be from the crypt cordata. Whose newest leaf continues to look incredibly healthy, by the way.








The plant has sent out a runner and is sprouting a new scion halfway across the width of the tank. Fantastic! It must be happy to send out new growth like this, and in the dead of winter no less (average tank temp is 65° right now). Pics from the past two days:
























There will be more coming! (pictures)


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*I've just had a realization-*

Um, so this tank is ten degrees colder in the winter. The fish's metabolism is slowed down. That's probably why Perry has less appetite. He perked up a lot more yesterday- after the tank cleaning, water change that removed rest of the salt, and a day of fasting. I thought he was feeling lively because of the fresh water, but- Maybe I've just been feeding them too much for the cold season. I fed half the norm yesterday, and so far he continues to look well. I think Lady would like to eat just as much as in summer (her behavior suggests) but I've also cut back on her food for now.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Last week: I thought the tank looked a bit murky. Paradise fishes look better- still feeding them lightly. Tank glass got a lot more soft brown algae- not sure why. Maybe because I fed Perry and Lady several red wigglers that showed up from my boston fern? I rinsed them off and gave to the paradise fishes, but neglected to 'clean' the worms out- I used to keep them overnight in a container so they'd void a lot first. I didn't this time, and perhaps it added too much organics to the tank- fish seem fine but there is definitely more algae, water looks a bit tinted, and some film on the surface. Cleaned the glass, rubbed some algae off leaves. I did feed them worms two or three times- one each- so . . . oops.

This week there was far less algae on the glass, but a lot still on plant leaves which I rubbed off as much as I could, some too fragile will tear. I refolded and taped up the third layer of plastic sheeting between tank and window again.

I'm still watching this leaf grow.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My window tank is chilly at 62°- so when I had my hand in the tank to rub off some algae and clean up a few dead leaves, I couldn't keep it in there too long! No algae at all on the glass this week, but more on the large crypt. Its scion is bright, untouched green but the mother plant is starting to look worn out. Last week I cleaned a ton of browned, wilted salvinia minima leaves from the surface; this week those floaters look great- seem to be spreading, and very few dying this time. Fishes are continuing to do great on their reduced feeding- Perry zips up and down the tank glass with excitement when I stand there and lift the lid in the morning.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

Good looking tank! Speaking of the tank... How are you enjoying it... size-wise? I'm thinking about picking up a 33L myself. I can get one from my LFS easily.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thank you! I am really liking this one. It's nice to have a tank I can look down into, but also feels very spacious for the fish.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

Yeah! I definitely would love a long tank like that! I'm in a debate of the 33 Long vs 40B.


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

Blackheart said:


> Yeah! I definitely would love a long tank like that! I'm in a debate of the 33 Long vs 40B.


If it's a decision of less vs more gallons... They make a 40 long as well. Same footprint as the 33 but slightly taller


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Trying to get my window tank looking better again. Still plenty of brown algae. I put in new filter sponges- the prior ones didn't fit right, there was a leak and it made an irritating noise (my husband said it sounded like a distant car alarm). It was a size II sponge I had cut in half to fit these two filters, and the cut was uneven. Only- the replacement sponges I mistakenly ordered size I when I should have got size 0. Annoyed, not wanting to bother to send back for exchange, I just trimmed some material off the sides to make them a bit smaller. At least they fit tight around the housing piece, so the air flows properly now. Prior sponges I cut in half and wedged behind new ones again, will stay in the tank a few weeks again for bacteria transfer.

Then on a whim, I stuck into the substrate many of the hornwort pieces, which have been doing great as floaters. Suddenly the tank is quite a bit brighter. I wonder if the amount of floaters was making the light too dim, when it's already dimmer in winter? Have to see if this changes anything. I don't think I want to leave the hornwort like this long term, but maybe just until summer sun is stronger again, then float them again to use up the light...

Right now it's kind of nice to see the light through their green needles.








I just rubbed a lot of algae off the broad leaves of crypt Moehlmanii (?). 








hello, Lady








I didn't take a picture of it, but the coleus cuttings on this tank are not doing well. They are very pale, and I keep removing leaves that have dried, crispy edges. The roots don't look very healthy- lots of brown. As soon as I can, will swap them out for sweet potato cuttings, maybe then things will improve in here (if the coleus have been functioning sub-par, not pulling up nitrates like usual, thus giving algae a foothold . . . so many different factors I really don't know which one it is)

Note: I've recognized finally that Perry just _doesn't like_ NLS pellets. He eats anything else readily enough, but spits that food out. I guess fish can have individual taste, too.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Younger crypt Moehlmanii now has a second leaf unfurling. It's still untouched by algae- probably because the driftwood piece stands between it and the stronger light








Parent plant still needs to get cleaned off weekly. I cut off one of the older leaves this time.








Cut some older unkempt leaves off the bolbitis fern, too. Lots of new young ones unfurling bright green








Crypts in the filter corner are growing in nicely








I've noticed on the warmer days when the light is brighter, plants start to look greener of course. The days we had snow, dim light outside and algae starting covering leaves again. Makes sense- if the plants aren't photosynthesizing as much, the algae will take advantage and grow more. Perry's colors are brighter as spring comes on








Lady's tail glows in the light








Perry is nearly Lady's size now. My husband thinks he has a few centimeters left to go. He suggested I feed Lady sparingly and give Perry more protein-rich foods, so he can outgrow her quicker.








I've noticed a subtle change in their behavior at the barrier wall. They face each other- but Lady doesn't bite hard. Perry flares slightly, they just look at each other, then one will turn, swim off, swim back casually. Once or twice I saw them nip at each other thru the wall today, but not with such force as before. More often than not, they just _looked_.








It seems their demeanor is softening. I am happy at the prospects of attempting a re-introduction.
















Tried to get a few full tank shots, but without shielding the window light, this was the best outcome


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I am wondering if the ailing coleus was affecting the fish. I saw in the past few days, Perry would twitch. Not regularly all day- but for a short while in the early morning, or at dusk. He flashed off the edge of plants as if scraping his gills, but also briefly thrashed himself up and down, like a fish on a hook. I was baffled. Gill flukes? seemed likely _something_ in the water was irritating him, and my first guess those old coleus stems- which looked a bit salt-encrusted (or hard water deposits) and blackened when I pulled them out. 








I removed the coleus day before yesterday, haven't seen him flinch since. I have new sweet potato cuttings for the tank in water jars, waiting for them to sprout new roots first. 

Odd that Lady was unaffected.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Somehow Perry broke his caudal fin extension.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*my paradise fish Lady is really a male*









I've found evidence of bubble-nest building, Lady flares at reflections in a mirror I hold up, and tail is growing larger, brighter colors. I look close at the fin shape- anal fin has a long point. When I hold up a mirror, Lady displays and threatens. Perry acts subdued. I think he finds his conspecific intimidating, in spite of the wall. They try to bite each other again. There will be no reunion.

I've changed the name to Laddie. Tried to get photos, but of course the fish never flared when I snapped the camera shutter.
















Even laid down, eyed me sideways and refused to move after a while. If it's just me staring near the glass, they wriggle with excitement and dash up and down. If I hold the camera up, they hide or cower.








Compare length of Perry's tail- they're nearly the same now








On another note, I've added a few stems of elodea (it looks better in person than photo)








and I still like best in here the hill of bolbitis fern:


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

So it was just supposed to be regular maintenance and tank cleanings the other day








but I decided if I'm going to do it, I need to _do it_- move everything out of my 20H so my betta tank can go in its spot upstairs. So it was an extra hour of work, but now my 20H is empty. I moved a lot the plants into here- the nicer anubias into Laddie's corner over the terra cotta cave- it looks really different now-








and after moving out the other plants, shrimps and fishes, I scooped the substrate out of the 20 by hand, rinsed in bucket of tank water as well as I could, and put it in here. Mostly around the base of the crinum








and large crypt Moehlmanii, which need more hold for their roots. Extra elodea got planted behind the crypt M-








I also scattered it into the stands of crypt undulata and lutea, and the still-unhappy vallisneria. Put the dragon stone pieces from the 20H in here, too- situated behind clumps of plants- they blend in with the substrate. I'm thinking of planting them with moss at some point- try that again.








more substrate scattered thicker under other crypts, too- though eventually it will level out across the tank again I know








Full tank shot- unfortunately due to the window light, most of the picture washed out- someday soon I'll set up a background panel and take better photos








Laddie's side-








Perry's side-








Perry's tail looks really uneven since the upper fin extension broke off- I don't know if it will grow back-
















After everything settled yesterday, of course the tank got very murky and Perry looked distressed- I did another water change before nightfall. This morning tested for ammonia- zero, and the fishes look alert again, Laddie especially wriggling and begging for food. I'm glad I was able to beef up the substrate, but still disappointed I won't be able to take the dividing wall down until I am back to one fish in here...


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*tank cleanup*

It had gotten a bit neglected- not in terms of the water changes, but the other smaller details- there was a lot of green algae accumulating on the back glass, and I hadn't cleaned out dead leaves or excess floaters in a while. Also when I added the substrate from the emptied 20H, maybe I didn't rinse it enough? There was some film on the surface, Perry was flinching sometimes, and Laddie got fungus on a pectoral fin. (You can just see th dot of it here- was bigger at first- this pic is several days after I first saw it)








So I did a mid-week water change- scraped all the glass clean- wow it looked so much better, I hadn't realized how dim the tank got with that algae on the back wall. Plucked out all the deteriorating floaters and some dead leaves- hornwort just not doing well in here now so I dropped what I found of it into the shrimp vase. An hour after all that, the tank still looked a bit hazy from things being disturbed and the scraped algae got into the water column, so I did another 5 gal wc. Looked very clear then.

Hard to get a good photo of the fish- here's an overhead- the fungus was a white fuzzy blob three times that size, two days ago. After several days of extra wc I think it's resolving- the fuzzy spot is much smaller now








but there's a piece missing out of his fin. I feel bad I didn't see it sooner, but think if I keep up the daily partial wc it will finish healing and grow back.








I'm doing another one now.

Perry always seems subdued. When Laddie is flitting around his side of the tank looking at things, wriggling at me in anticipation, inspecting the ground, snapping at baby trumpet snails on the surface- Perry just hangs there in one spot. Just doesn't seem as healthy. I have decided not to feed them garden caterpillars or aphids this year. Worry it may have introduced something that made Perry unwell. Maybe I will still do live mosquito larvae, though.








On the other hand- maybe he is always subdued and holding his tail down because acting submissive to Laddie . . . ? They don't bite and flare at each other so much now, but when facing each other across the mesh, Perry usually is positioned tail angled down and holds his fins closed. I wonder if he is just intimidated. Which makes me feel kinda bad in another way. That instead of giving him a friend, ends up I brought in a competitor to live next door ...


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Laddie looks better today-








darting around so much I could barely get a photo- fungus spot is just a white dot on the fin now








Did another 5 gal water change. Yesterday I moved a few stems to spread these out- on the lower left there's the ludwigia arcuata, still a few pieces of that in here, I hope it grows more during the summer light. (Tiny stems that I found floating and planted in the substrate a while back? appears to have all died off.)








Younger crypt Moehlmanii is sending up another leaf.








I cut and replanted tops of some elodea that had new growth- and just left of middle there, where edge of window makes shadow behind the tank, is the _one_ vallisneria starting to grow out in this tank-








can see it better in this end shot- it's on the far left, between filter sponge and the elodea. All the others on Laddie's side are still doing nothing. Well, if this one grows and sends out runners, eventually I'll have more.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*better, and unwell*

Laddie's fin is nearly clear- I can barely see the white mark. He flicks his fins and dances across the front of the tank when I walk up, wiggling to get my attention. Perry looks more and more listless, pale this morning, just sitting in a corner. I haven't often seen him in the moment of eliminating, but did yesterday- his feces were kinda clear, and stringy. Probably he has parasites, still. Or again. I gave them garlic soaked food today. Laddie eagerly zoomed after every bite. Perry ate a few, then let the others fall (I siphoned them out). Did another water change. Now I'm going through the meds in my cabinet, see what I could dose the tank with- I think I still have levamisole, and metronidazole. SIGH.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well, my best guess was internal parasites so day before I did a 50% water change, dosed the window tank with levamisole, covered it against light for 24 hours, then a huge 75% water change next day. When it was down so low the water level was barely height of the fishes' bodies- they didn't like that- but I had new water on hand to quick start refilling again. I gravel vacc'd as well as I could around the plants with the tiny one (airline and medicine syringe). This pic from the 50% wc I did just before dosing the meds- Laddie is the blur on the left.








Perry is on the right here- I patched two photos together so half the crinum is missing and the light on surface doesn't match- but you can see how healthy all the water spangles have grown in!








But- nothing has changed. Laddie's fin is all clear, now- I'm sure the huge water changes helped clear up that little problem. He darts around eager and interested in everything. Perry- as in the above picture- sits looking miserable just at surface or on substrate, in the shelter of a plant. He only eats half the bites I offer. I still don't know if this is virus, parasite, or just behavioral- is he so depressed and intimidated by Laddie next door . . . Well, I'm going to let him rest a few days, then treat the tank with metronidazole, and repeat the dose of levamisole in a few weeks- just in case the stringy poo I saw really was from a parasite load- but somehow I feel like it won't help.


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## TDSapp (Feb 28, 2019)

JJ09 said:


> . I still don't know if this is virus, parasite, or just behavioral- is he so depressed and intimidated by Laddie next door . . .



Is there no way to change the partition between the two fish to further reduce the viability? Maybe add another mesh but shift it over just a bit so you have to be at a specific angle to see through them.


Tim


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

TDSapp said:


> Is there no way to change the partition between the two fish to further reduce the viability? Maybe add another mesh but shift it over just a bit so you have to be at a specific angle to see through them.
> 
> 
> Tim


I didn't think of trying that. I could also take Laddie out, keep him in my spare tank for a short while, see if Perry suddenly becomes alert and well- that would tell me a lot. Then I could find a way to block the sight if needed. Thanks for the idea.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I have been busy and didn't take time yet to move Laddie or replace the wall so they can't see each other. But now prompted to- Laddie's fin is regrowing but has lumps on it- I asked in another thread here since lots of people don't look at the journals- so if it's treatable I will probably put Laddie in one of my small bins with a little sponge filter for a while. 








If Perry's demeanor changes markedly at that, I'll find something solid to put instead of the plastic mesh divider.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ahhh, what happened to Perry? This morning he looked paler and more pinched, and has a dent, a dark vertical mark on his body- just below the dorsal fin.








And the bottom edge of the wall is pushed in towards Laddie's side.








I think Perry was trying to force his way under the wall at night, and injured himself. He got a small tear in one pectoral fin last week, and broke his upper caudal filament weeks before- I wonder if this is all the same thing- him trying to break through the wall and fight to get it all back. SIGH.

I am dosing the tank with metro and praziquantel- starting tomorrow- had to buy a new packet of meds. Just because Perry continues to have poor appetite yet looks plump, and occasionally flicks against things still. It's either one of two things: Perry is miserable from stress over his tank neighbor, or that stress has lowered his immune system so he fell sick to parasites while Laddie didn't. I don't know. 

I am looking around this weekend to find something I can use for a solid wall between them. It doesn't have to allow water flow, as I have a sponge filter on each end.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Give Stephan at Swiss Tropicals, swisstropicals.com, and let him know what's going on. He may be able to get you a thinly cut piece of Poret foam you can use to separate the two. If you end up getting enough stuff to make mattenfilters for each of the boys while you're there, don't blame me.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I put Laddie in my QT bin- set up in basement window which gets bright indirect light (so the salvinia floaters I put in with him won't die)








He's doing fine. Looks dull in these photos because the bin sides are semi-opqaue, and it was backlit as well. I fed him flake about twenty minutes after moving him- he snapped at it eagerly, and now comes darting to the near side, wriggling his fins at me when I walk through the basement room- not much fazed at being in strange quarters.








Perry shows no improvement yet. Has the tank to himself for now- I'm not sure he noticed. I dosed with metro and prazi. Took apart a plastic folder and cleaned it, I'm going to fit the sheet against the existing wall to block sight- see if that helps any. It will be a temporary measure, I'll find or make a better wall if it turns out to be useful. I offered his favorite flake this morning, and he ate it but slowly. Now he's been just hanging at surface all day, not moving. If I glance over there, it's as if the tank is unoccupied because I see no movement. I am hoping it's the medication distressing him now, and he'll look better when the treatment is done.


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## zmartin (May 1, 2018)

Hoping perry comes good!

I’ve been following your thread with interest and while they can be great, as your thread shows, there is nothing certain and they can also be frustrating and unpredictable. Hang in there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

zmartin said:


> Hoping perry comes good!
> 
> I’ve been following your thread with interest and while they can be great, as your thread shows, there is nothing certain and they can also be frustrating and unpredictable. Hang in there.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Yeah, I love 'em. It was actually pretty cool to carry Laddie downstairs in a 2 gallon bucket yesterday, he was cruising and looking up at me the whole time. I showed him to my kid "Say hi to Laddie!" and the fish came up curious to look at her. _In_ the bucket. This morning I walked downstairs and as soon as I enter the room where his QT bin is, he darts over to the nearest corner to waggle at me. I don't have any other fish who are _so_ confident. The others would all be cowering in a corner or washed out in this situation.

Of course, I guess that same boldness is what makes it hard to keep them together. I don't think I'll try to keep two again. I envy those who had mild-mannered paradise fish that could live in groups. Mine are feisty!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Since July 07, I no longer have my Perry fish. He had been looking unwell for so long (over a month now). I finally noticed there was more degradation of his tail, and dorsal fin no longer had a point. I worried he had fin rot and did more water changes. I put up a solid wall to try and reduce stress of him facing the other paradise fish (Laddie moved back into the tank after med dose finished)








but they could still see each other in reflection gap where the wall met the glass- or just knew each other were there via scent or something? Laddie would flare and threaten at that spot of the wall where they always faced off, and Perry would act submissive.








He got more and more pale, and quit moving, just hovered in one place near the surface, or alternately lay on the bottom of the tank. Lost his appetite again.
















I couldn't watch him suffer any more, especially when Laddie on the other side is zipping around curious about everything, dashing after food. Perry just sat there looking unhappy, stressed or miserable. I overdosed him with clove oil in a small container and buried in the yard. It was a bad day.








In retrospect, I realize I ought to have at least tried a second round of parasite treatment, I never did repeat the levamisole and maybe I also forgot to finish up the parzi/metro treatment- I can't recall now because we had a health crisis in the family and my fishes were low priority at the time.


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## zmartin (May 1, 2018)

Sorry to hear about Perry. I Wouldn’t second guess yourself on the treatment- you did heaps over a prolonged period. Which can be exhausting. 

Hope your family crisis is ok.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks, @zmartin. It's as well as can be expected, but going to require ongoing management. I may have to cut back on things like tanks and gardening- just not enough time in the day anymore. Already I've dropped another hobby (making art) and neglected many things, but that's okay. Life sucks sometimes, just gotta deal with it and get used to a new norm.


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

Sorry to hear about Perry, you did everything you could and stopping his suffering seems like the right thing to have done.

Good luck with family things, wishing you all the best.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thank you, @Thelongsnail appreciate it. How's your tank going? 

I just fed Laddie a shrimp, btw. Maybe it was a mean thing to do. But I think this shrimp was going to die in a day or two anyway (see the shrimp bowl thread) so instead of watching it go slow- and get torn to pieces by the other shrimps- I dropped it in the paradise fish tank.

It went quick. Laddie didn't even let that shrimp fall to the substrate, much less have time to hide. He snatched it with a ton of force, the legs scattered, he choked it down in seconds, for a while a bit of shrimp tail showed out of his mouth, and that was it. Laddie looks very smug and super alert now- maybe he's hoping for another one. 

Another note: I got a clump of flame moss from fish club yesterday. I have had flame moss in the past and it died on me, but since this was free, why not try again. I tied it on the top edges of all the dragon stone pieces in this tank- having read it does better in cool water I didn't bother putting any in my other tanks. Put some on top of the clay cave, too. 

My fissidens is slowly growing out on the mesh square, looking pretty and tidy. I was going to trim when it grew tall enough, and tie onto those dragon stones- but if it ends up I like fissidens better than flame moss, can always remove one and replace with the other.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Sorry to hear about all the rough news lately. Wishing you some good fortune to help you find your way forward.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

It's my favorite tank to look at, but the hardest to get decent photos of:








Laddie rules the tank now- from one end








to the other, and looks very satisfied about it (or so I imagine)


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Paradise fish Laddie is doing great. Tank is nice and green with summer. I replaced some of the older sweet potato vines on the back with new cuttings. For some reason smaller crypts on the left of the tank are doing poorly- had a lot of leaves turn white and melt. Also the crinum is looking sad (no new growth, tips dying off on older leaves), and salvinia minima floaters have a lot of dieoff. I don't know if all this is from only having one fish in the tank instead of two now- less food input so less plant nutrients? or something else. Flame moss died in here too, but the fissidens remaining on the mesh is looking great. I'm hoping to move some of that onto a rock soon. A lot of the vals have died off too, but the few left are finally growing taller and I hope they send out some runners.


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## snakeybird (May 19, 2014)

I always enjoy your journal updates on the paradise fish aquarium. I want to do a paradise fish setup in my empty 30 gallon, and this tank journal has been a big inspiration!


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## aquanerd13 (Jun 22, 2019)

Did the 1st female die?

Bump: If those small crypts are new, it might be the crypt melt. FYI: cut all the leaves off at the base of the stems before planting your crypts. You will have good bushy growth.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

@aquanerd13 I had two males. I recently euthanized the first male. The crypts are not new. I've had them over a year, they just recently started melting and yeah, it was right after I lost the other paradise fish.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Not necessary to do that with Cryptocoryne. It only helps if you're experiencing extreme melting or know it's necessary. Cutting everything down to the rhizome before planting won't stimulate faster growth (they'll grow at the same rate) and in some cases could end up being bad for plant if you aren't experienced or careful. Crypts don't thicken up until there are plenty of adult leaves on each segment of the rhizome, so it takes patience.

For the most part, Crypts will transition quite well on their own - from emergent to submerged, between various tanks, even from varying fertilization routines - with no intervention. 

But they're heavy root-feeders, so it may be a good idea for the OP to add some root tabs if there doesn't appear to be an issue with parameters.



aquanerd13 said:


> FYI: cut all the leaves off at the base of the stems before planting your crypts. You will have good bushy growth.


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## sittinglynx (Feb 18, 2019)

_"It's my favorite tank to look at, but the hardest to get decent photos of"_

I feel you! My tank isn't in a spot where sun plays a factor, but my cell phone is designed for outside/rugged use and not great pics, so I wish I had better pics on my tank journal as well. With that said, I love your tank. I remember researching & the size I want is 30 gallon long shelf tank. It would fit on my fireplace mantel with extra room on each side for filters/etc & my fireplace is small, so it doesn't get hot up there when in use. Long story short, I see your tank and imagine it on my mantel, lol!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Sweet potato vine on the back of my window tank had tiny leafhoppers and/or aphids. I squish the bugs between fingers when I find them, pulled out the plants that seemed infested, replaced with new cuttings. Now it all seems clean and the cuttings are really flourishing! And my hands no longer have that tacky feeling they sometimes get when in the tank water. I think it was from the aphids.








The insects are hopefully all gone, but I have some new small inhabitants. The other day I went to local fish club. Someone had brought in a container full of ramshorn snails; nobody else wanted them so I brought them home. Right now they're in a plastic box I sometimes use to temporarily hold small fish or plants. I siphon out waste and replaced some of the water each morning, but I need to find a larger container for them to live in, so I can dole them out to Laddie over time. So he doesn't pig out all at once. (Although I really like the blue ones. Might keep those separate and put in the angelfish tank).








Because when I dropped just five into the tank for starters, Laddie got *so* excited. Colored up and stripes showing. Darted around, making quick jabs down to grab a snail- I heard a shell knock against the tank glass, but I don't think he did it on purpose. It looks like Laddie just suctions them out of the shell, all avid eagerness. He seems a lot more interested in his surroundings now there's new snails to hunt for. (There's still trumpet snails in here too, but the ones Laddie hasn't eaten seem to have got wise to the fish- they stay hidden under substrate all day and only come up the glass at night).








Also, um, now I have a few guppies. It was not planned. At fish club, the container of snails I received had four plain ordinary guppies in it. Nobody was interested so I shrugged: I'll feed to my angel or paradise fish. At home first I put them in a temporary container with fresh water.








They're _so small_. I would usually empty the transport water and fish into a small bucket, then net out the fish to go into the tank. But they came in a (clean!) urine sample cup, so the amount of water would not have let the guppies swim in the bottom of the bucket. Instead, I scooped them out in a medicine dose cup. The fish are so tiny, all _four_ of them were in this.








There are three females and one smaller male. The larger female went into my shrimp jar. Other three guppies went into the window tank. I fully expected them to be a meal for Laddie. The paradise fish chased them immediately- in quick sharp rushes but couldn't catch them. One dived into the bolbitis fern thicket, others hid in low corners- this one under edge of a driftwood chunk.








Later they ventured out. They're good at staying unnoticed up at the surface among the sweet potato roots and salvinia:
















Here's a backlit photo with guppies, top left. Paradise fish, mid right.








Laddie ignores them now- smart fish- knows he can't catch them I guess - but if they start to breed I expect he'll eat the fry. They've been here two days, and now that Laddie isn't chasing them, the guppies are swimming around in main part of the water column sometimes, not just hugging the surface. I'm surprised to find that I_ like _having another, small fish in this tank- I didn't think it would work- I always assumed Laddie would attack any other fish. But I guess since these are too small to be a threat, yet too quick to be caught and eaten, he'll just leave them alone!








However, I know they won't live through winter cold. I'd have to move them in with the betta or angelfish. Who might be faster in the chase... But I'm thinking of white cloud mountain minnows now...


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Moved the pregnant female guppy in here today. I was starting to feel bad about keeping her in the shrimp jar. I wanted to treat her more gently than the others, which I had just dropped into the tank. I floated her in a baggie to acclimate gradually adding some tank water- but Laddie foiled the plan. Still ignoring the three guppies swimming around, he lunged to bite at this one trapped behind plastic. I chased Laddie away with aquascaping tweezers, but he kept circling back around. So I released the guppy, she immediately joined the others up top among the sweet potato roots, and Laddie promptly ignored her. My youngest is eagerly peering in the tank several times a day now, hoping to see the guppy give birth.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Only three guppies now. Found the pregnant female missing in the morning- eventually found her remains- just the tail- under a crypt thicket. I am pretty sure Laddie got her in the early morning, when it was still dim light and the guppy was unaware or slower than usual. Well, it's what I expected would happen.








Took pics of a few plants- cryptcoryne. My younger crypt Moehlmanii has grown so much, the leaves are almost mature size








Parent plant is front left








I found a crypt undulata growing in this crypt becketti clump- see the longer leaves? I teased it out and replanted in a rear corner, in front of the filter. I don't know if it grew there on its own, or I accidentally had mixed one in.








The little crypts willisii are looking slightly better.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Twice now I've transferred the largest ramshorns from their little container into this tank, ten the first time, six a week later. Laddie sure was interested. I let them float long enough he quit trying to bite them through the plastic and moved away. I opened the back half of the tank lid, Laddie was at front looking to see if I had food, and I just dropped the snails in the back, straight into the bolbitis thicket where Laddie can't reach. So he won't get them all right away, leave them time to crawl around some.








One was up on the glass shortly after, nomming away on algae already.








Then I found that Laddie has been striking the snails, killing them but not eating their bodies out from the shells. I don't know if he misses and doesn't grab enough of them to extract the snail? or what. But I didn't want to leave those snails lying around the tank making stink. So I fed them to my shrimps (see the shrimp jar journal). 

Disappointing, in a way. I mean, I knew Laddie would go after the snails, but it feels like a waste when he's not actually _eating_ them.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*ready for a lot of pictures? because I took a ton!*

So I had this chunk of mopani wood in a corner that was really too big for the space, and an anubias I'd taken out of the betta tank weeks ago- (it was getting too large for the 10g). I just sawed the mopani into several smaller pieces. Onto one I tied the large anubias- it neatly hides the sponge filter in that corner. I figure anubias will do better here than those crypts which melted few weeks ago- this spot doesn't get a lot of light most times of the year.








front view- anubias is behind the crypt moehlmanii:








Here's the younger crypt moehlmanii- wow has it grown.








I keep sticking buces in here, that come loose from tethers in the angelfish tank. Here's some buce 'selena' in front of the anubias driftwood:








and buce 'green wavy' in another part of the tank- I need to regroup some of the buces by type together. The 'green wavy' seems to do pretty well in here.








Anubias congensis on the other short end- this one is really chewed on. Some of my snails are hungry? Maybe I have too many trumpet snails in here, they aren't finding enough leftovers or algae to eat off the glass? could be time to cull snails. And not the way Laddie does it, either.








I finally gave in to using ferts. Had firm idea early on, I wouldn't dose this tank, just grow what can manage off the fish waste. Not any more- tucked half a root tab under these vals and finally they are showing some progress. (The anubias congensis is next to them, maybe you also noticed in the previous pic it's putting out a new leaf too!)








On another of the newly-cut-up driftwood pieces I tied some windelov ferns.








Kind of rearranged all the windelov in here. Here's more- that have their roots clinging to substrate or a rock- off to the side of the mopani piece. They never look too good in this tank, maybe someday I'll decide to move them all out and just have in here the plants that _do well_ . . .








On a few more small pieces of wood I tied some bolbitis fern to spread around. There's one of the new bunches in the middle of this photo in the back, between the two ludwigia arcuata stems.








Surprise- my tiny bit of anubias pangolino appears to be _growing_. It's on the dragon stone behind this clump of crypt becketti.








Another happy surprise- the fissidens I tied onto another dragon stone behind the other crypt becketti is also growing out! (too small for camera focus)








I've found that the elodea pieces that came loose and float, do so much better here than the ones I had stuck in the substrate. So (like hornwort in the angel tank) I let them all do that:








Wondering if I should just give up on the crinum. Mine keeps growing new strappy leaves, and stays green, but the leaves never grow out long, they always break off. So doesn't seem to be doing so well. Maybe the substrate is too shallow for it.








Side view looking down long through the tank- crypts becketti on left, flanked by the dragon stone, windelov fern in front, stems on the right (which is the rear of the tank)








Side view of my ludwigia (or is it hygro?) stems - photo isn't that great, but you can see how they've grown! I cut and replanted tops again.








Then I took the trouble to clean the glass tops- ugh, the rear pane was particularly dirty with brown algae and scum. Took some overhead shots while I was working there. Here's the same stems- they turn to touch the rear glass- which here is top of the photo:








Among my favorite plants- the crypts becketti:








Here's the grand growth on the younger crypt moehlmanii. Bolbitis thicket behind it, Laddie the paradise fish is in front of course he was looking for handouts from the photographer. Crinum is front right.








Left front corner of the tank- the small remainders of crypts willisii, anubias newly tied on driftwood in back left corner, older crypt moehlmanii front center, slender leaf of a crypt undulata I moved last week in the center. The crypt is getting holes chewed in it, urgh. 








The bolbitis thicket! It looks so beautiful from this top angle. I just wish this one was a bit more in focus:








Ludwigia arcuata, to the right of bolbitis thicket (I only have three pieces of this and one so small can't see it. Doesn't seem to grow as fast as my other stems). One piece of mermaid weed center. Sweet potato vine roots reaching down.








I took this photo trying for the elodea stem, but really it shows off Laddie the paradise fish (and some crypt becketti).








Can see in several of those photos above, how washed out and brown the salvinia minima is. I think it just can't compete with other plants for nutrients, especially now that the sweet potato vines have grown tons of roots? maybe I'll have to phase it out and let elodea be the floating plant . . .

full tank shot:


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I'm starting to wonder what kind of guppies I have, or if it they're an endler cross? The little male has developed some brilliant color. (I often see him shimmying his fins around a female, haven't seen any mating but both females are getting very fat and square, so they might have).








He's bright blue, darker on the caudal peduncle and black fins, with a line of bright spots top and bottom of the caudal peduncle like a row of runway lights.








Of course I could not get a good photo- the colors only show well when the tank is dim, and the fish flits around so much my camera can't really catch it.








But maybe, although blurry, these pictures give an idea.








I moved the guppies out today. It's starting to get colder at night, this tank hasn't dropped below 70 yet but it could. I put the guppies in my empty 10g.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I got six white cloud mountain minnows to try in this tank- they're in QT right now.








Tried to get a better picture of how the tank actually looks in the room by photoshopping together two photos with different exposure. I have some houseplants under the tank, and sweet potato vine above it.








I added a new plant. If you know about this one, you might cringe that I bought some.








I just guessed at it's name when I saw it at the nursery- having seen it mentioned online somewhere. I was there to buy grass seed and perennials, and found a small outdoor area with pond plants. Saw this stiff, ferny stuff with emergent growth in shallow water and thought hey, that might grow nicely in the back of my window tank- and be permanent, I wouldn't have to be restarting sweet potato or coleus cuttings every few months.








I even thought the underwater part of the stems would add interesting texture in background-and it does:








really first of all I wanted this elodea- as floaters but a lot of them half sank, so I stuck behind the bolbitis hill








Moved the sweet potato vines to either side of the tank-to stick the parrot's feather in center. 
















The stems make this tank look wild. Side view- back of the tank is on the right








view from the other end-








Laddie seems to like the new plants.








But to my dismay when I came home looking up more info, found out that parrot's feather is considered an invasive plant in my state. it never occured to me to ask the man _that _question at the nursery. He told me it needs high light- so either my dimmer window (and tank light in the 45) will keep it a bit in check or make it grow leggy and unattractive. Or it will overpower everything and I will regret and throw it all out- ! As with the duckweed and salvinia, I will have to make sure any trimmings or removed pieces are dried to a crisp before composting them.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Lost one of the white clouds in QT this morning. It was my fault. They all have good color now, four look active and healthy, one is still timid and the largest was hiding under things- it had started coming out to eat though. I was doing a partial water change and the hose caught the largest minnow- I didn't see it cowering in the corner, where I stuck the hose to get out a bit of mulm. Feel bad now.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My remaining five wc's still look well, far as I can tell. Except one kind of has a hunched back...?








Fifth one is hiding in the sponge tunnel:


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I cut the QT period short with the minnows. 








The bin never actually cycled, I'm tired of doing daily partial wc, and um they look fine. To be honest, if they give some disease to Laddie I would not be heartbroken- this fish was the bully and I still miss Perry- other day in aquarium shop saw a tank of young blue paradise fish- their bright eyes and inquisitive faces reminded me so much of Perry I wanted to bring one home...! 

But not while Laddie is in the tank. He was _very_ interested in the white clouds while I acclimated them:
























I distracted him on one end of the tank and released them other side.








They look great in here.
















So far so good- Laddie tried to bite at them but they're quick and avoid him easily. Already I want to get more, but will wait a few days and make sure they don't get eaten, first. (And feed flake to the QT until it finishes cycling before I put more new fish in it)


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

White clouds doing great. Love to see them wriggle their little tails excited when they find food in the tank. Laddie ignores them. They're so quick, it's hard to get photos now-








Several more of them are looking fatter, so I wonder if I have more females.
















When I put the parrot's feather in the back of the tank, I took the plastic film off the window. Thought- this plant needs more light, and hopefully will take up enough nutrients to outcompete algae that might arise. Plus, the sun exposure is different in winter. I do see more trumpet snails out on the rear glass now, but I also see a lot of my window tank plants perking up and looking a bit greener.

Parrot's feather grew taller. Almost leggy enough to be unattractive...
















How it looks now:








Some of the underwater parts are turning brown and yellowish-
















but probably will regrow regardless


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## NotCousteau (Sep 25, 2014)

Awesome tank! I love the 33 long.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*crap, think my fish have parasites again-*

My paradise fish often rests on the tank floor and then darts up to wriggle his tail at me when I walk by. But I notice lately he's laying on the substrate more and more often, and doesn't seem quite as eager for food. The minnows with him look fine. I did introduce plants recently from outdoor pond container at the nursery- probably that was a rash move. Just noticed the guppies in my tenner are showing signs of parasite- one of the females has white poops. They act fine and eat voraciously. Laddie- the paradise fish- sometimes flashes and scrapes gills on things. Gill flukes? or something else? I think I ought to treat both tanks but not sure which is better to use prazipro or general cure.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Hope its not gill flukes-- so hard to get rid of. 
The treatment here would be Prazipro- an extended treatment lasting 28 days. I can give you that schedule of treatment if you like. 
White poo that is accompanied by lethargy, possibly fish eating little to no food, would point more to Hexamita or flagelletes in which case you would use the General Cure for 10 days in food. 
White poo in healthy fish indicates flatworms ( 1 dose of Prazipro left in water column for 3 days will take care of that). These worms can kill fish, but it takes awhile. You would see signs of emaciation in middle to late stages- something to indicate their presence.

Edit: I always do a prophylactic treatment with Prazipro for tapeworm with new fish-- just in case. So, at the very least, I would recommend this. Prazipro is a very mild medication; these worms can slowly wear down even healthy fish when they increase in numbers in the gut, usually opening the fish up to secondary bacterial infections.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thank you @Discusluv, was hoping you'd see this. Yes, please give me that schedule. Sounds like I ought to give the paradise fish tank an extended treatment, and maybe dose the 10g once. Will the prazipro be hard on the guppy fry I have in my tenner? (no big loss if it is, there will be plenty more soon enough). I'm kind of surprised one fish shows symptoms in there but the fry all look plenty healthy. They're so small maybe I wouldn't notice if the fry had white poo- but I do siphon out their container with an airline every other day and the bits of waste look dark so I think they're ok so far.

Alternately, I could move the guppy fry out into a growout tank- I have one ready was actually planning to move them today- and treat them there if they need half dose or something, so the adult that's obviously affected can get full treatment.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> Thank you @*Discusluv*, was hoping you'd see this. Yes, please give me that schedule. Sounds like I ought to give the paradise fish tank an extended treatment, and maybe dose the 10g once. Will the prazipro be hard on the guppy fry I have in my tenner? (no big loss if it is, there will be plenty more soon enough). I'm kind of surprised one fish shows symptoms in there but the fry all look plenty healthy. They're so small maybe I wouldn't notice if the fry had white poo- but I do siphon out their container with an airline every other day and the bits of waste look dark so I think they're ok so far.


 Fry would be_ very vulnerable _to gill flukes. They would kill quick. 

But, yeah, give both tanks a treatment of prazipro. I do not think that the med will harm the fry at all. 

Ill get that schedule for you.

Edit:

Day 1 -- remove carbon, perform water change with vacuuming, and add Prazi to tank.
Day 2 -- add Prazi again (full dose)
Day 3 -- do nothing
Day 4 -- do nothing
Day 5 -- do nothing
Day 6 -- add Prazi
Day 7 -- add Prazi
Day 8 -- normal partial water change with vacuuming
Day 14 -- normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 21 -- normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 28 -- water change and add carbon. Treatment complete.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

So maybe the guppy has flatworms or something, and the paradise fish tank has gill flukes? I guess it's possible it's diff in the tanks- the fishes do show different symptoms.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> So maybe the guppy has flatworms or something, and the paradise fish tank has gill flukes? I guess it's possible it's diff in the tanks- the fishes do show different symptoms.


 That is possible. 

For now do a treatment in both tanks of one treatment of Prazipro for tapeworm and watch the Paradise fish. The Prazi will irritate the gill flukes if present, and as they are irritated by the meds, the fish will rub on surfaces. Its often how I determine if gill flukes are present in new fish. 



See how that goes and will re-access in 3 days.
Make sure to gravel clean if you see white worms being extracted from fish from medicine.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ok will do. Thanks very much for your help.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Laddie has perked up again now. I saw him flash only once- the morning I dosed the medicine. This morning he ate one of the minnows. I was feeding them cooked peas. I cut the pea into small chunks- about an eighth of a pea is a good big bite for Laddie. Usually Laddie snaps up the chunk, while the minnows dart in and eat the tiny bits that disintegrate off the pea the moment it hits the water. This time, one white cloud grabbed the big bite and shook it, fins all flared wide, like a dog shaking a toy, only this pea chunk was much bigger than the minnow's own head! It was hilarious for half a second, then Laddie dove for the same pea bite and swallowed the minnow whole along with it. The spunky one lost. He's ignoring the rest of them now like always. Dang, I will be more careful next time I feed.

Oh, and I do see stringy white poo in the tank now .


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Paradise fish acting normal today. Up and about in the water column, inspecting everything in the tank inquisitively, eyeing me sideways and then wriggling his tail when I walk by. I'm doing water change w/gravel vac today. @Discusluv, do you think i need to repeat the treatment to make sure this is gone? or all good now.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> Paradise fish acting normal today. Up and about in the water column, inspecting everything in the tank inquisitively, eyeing me sideways and then wriggling his tail when I walk by. I'm doing water change w/gravel vac today. @*Discusluv*, do you think i need to repeat the treatment to make sure this is gone? or all good now.


Just observe for now. 

Did you happen to see the fish expel any worms while treating?

Edit: Im sorry, I missed your post of the 7th. I see that you did see indications of white feces-- thats great because now you know you did the correct treatment for one/or all symptoms.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks. I didn't actually see any fish in the act of pooping- but I did see some white/clear feces on the substrate. I hope I've got it all, whatever the parasite was.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Feeling some dismay. Two more white clouds gone- I don't know if Laddie ate them or if they just died. Laddie is lying on the tank floor again, and flashing sometimes against the filter uplift- obviously rubbing the gill plates. He eats, but slowly, not eager and quick like before. I haven't seen the minnows flash and they are lively enough, but two of them look unwell- one sometimes holds the fins clamped, and another looks kinda thin. I think I ought to do that month-long prazipro treatment after all.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

So . . . I was dithering on whether or not to give Laddie's tank the more serious treatment regimen. I haven't seen any white feces again, nor flashing since last time I posted here. Well I had just decided to start meds the following day anyhow, when I gave the fish new food. They'd all been on the end of this one can of flake (rotated with many other foods, they get flake a few times a week) it finally finished up and now I opened a fresh new can. When I fed the new flake (same brand) Laddie immediately perked up. I wonder if the old flake was expired, maybe he was feeling dull from poor nutrition? I put vitachem in the tank after the last water change too. Laddie looks active and lively again.

I've started feeding him the extra guppy fry- every other day I give him two or three. _Now _he's interested in everything, and eagerly comes to the front glass when I walk by.

Funny thing happened, one day I put three guppy fry in but only saw Laddie catch two. The third hid in the bolbitis thicket between driftwood and rear wall, Laddie couldn't get in there. He hovered around the area for hours, but the guppy never came out. I didn't see it for days, so assumed it had ventured out and gotten caught, or expired from the cold and was eaten by the snails. This morning I put one guppy fry in for Laddie. One of the white clouds started following it, nipping at its tail. Then I saw a smaller guppy drift up out of the bolbitis- Laddie saw it and zoomed over, it dived under cover again. I think the hiding guppy came out because it knew there was another guppy near? It must be finding enough microfauna to eat among the bolbitis fern, because I never see it come out when I give fish food.

My husband thinks I'm being cruel. He can't stand to watch when I drop fry in the tank. I do make sure to do this when my kid is at school, it would put her in tears. I told him that once the two female guppies are done dropping fry (one had a third batch last night, there's a dozen new tiny babies in the back of my 20H) I will give them away or something, won't keep doing this. I'll go back to raising mosquito larvae for live food.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I did some cleanup in the window tank recently. Took the last sheet of plastic film off, to let more light in now it's winter. I hadn't realized how dim the tank was getting until I saw how much brighter it looks now. My six white clouds still look well- one is always very plump I kept hoping they'd spawn and I'd get fry but now I just think the fat one one is a pig or bully and eats more than its fair share.








I started adding floaters back in. Topside had been very bare- especially since I decided to plant the elodea stems against the rear glass. Salvinia minima suddenly took off in the guppy tank and completely covered the surface, so I thinned that out and dumped a bunch back in here, hoping that whatever killed it off before is no longer a problem. Also started thinning out hornwort weekly from the angelfish tank, likewise put those trimmings in here. I thought the hornwort would melt or shed a lot (large temperature difference) but needle drop was minimal. And what do you know, my paradise fish quit sitting on the substrate and is now moving about the tank again, or often hanging near the surface under some floaters. I think maybe he was feeling exposed and thus hanging low, rather than being sick all this time? He's definitely more active and confident now:
















I think he's just a lazier fish than Perry was, and a bit leery of me too- because once when he grabbed a white cloud minnow I regret to say I chased him with a stick hoping he'd drop the smaller fish. He didn't. But now is skittish when I lift the lid or use a tool. Approaches cautiously for food- I don't think he'll ever really be eager to see me at the front glass. Which is sad because I used to love how Perry would zip up and down the length of the tank in excitement. Laddie just doesn't. Anyway, he tends to rest somewhere- either on the tank floor until something interesting happens- always on a leaf never actually on the gravel funny enough- or near the surface dead center, or on a plant midheight looking out. I wonder if he finds the motion of passing cars and people walking their dogs interesting?

Here he's resting on a frond of bolbitis, looking out the window








and here looking out between the one stem of mermaid weed, and a crypt. Or maybe he's just sleeping when he sits there, I don't know.








I noticed his dorsal and anal fins have grown out some nice long points. Tail has filled out some in width but not gotten any longer. I wonder if he's finally starting to reach maturity.
















I've had him a year and a half.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

One day the winter sun exposure was just right for taking photographs- so I did. (That's Laddie top just off center, he likes to hang in the middle of the tank and look out).








Overall the tank needs more plants with height- my vals have just never grown up. Some of the elodea are starting to get there- behind the 'hill' of bolbitis fern.








The younger crypt moehlmanii is just as big as its parent now. In front of that, is the group of little crypts I moved out of the front left corner a while back








They'd been looking peaky for a long time, always having a leaf here or there turning pale and dropping off. I finally decided to shift them all to a spot that gets more light- and now they're doing great!








The dimmer corner is now just buces.








Two buce in the tenner were getting tall enough to need a trim- one 'selena' and one 'isabella' so I clipped their tops and planted in here. Near the dwarf sword, which continues to do fine even when the temp drops to 64° nights.








Other side of the tank everything is nearly the same height- because I trimmed the stems and replanted a few weeks ago, and they grow slow or not at all in winter. Oh well.








Now for the glum news: my paradise fish has struck again. I first notice two days ago that Laddie tries to eat but then spits out the flake. He looks normal, plump even, but just sits in a corner or in one spot at the surface, not moving. Then I saw there's only five minnows. I checked every time I was near the tank yesterday and today- I'm pretty sure Laddie ate one and is now uncomfortable from being overfull. In fact, might have caused himself a blockage, he seems to have a bulge at the vent. I fed peas to all the fishes yesterday but Laddie hasn't moved anything. I didn't think he would try to eat an adult minnow; I guess you should never underestimate the greed of a predatory fish. So this isn't going to work long term, unless I had such a large group of minnows in there that Laddie could pick off a few now and then and their numbers would stay up from spawning, but I don't feel like getting more just for that. There's three guppies in there now- one smaller that I had thought would be a paradise-fish snack, but it hid in the bolbitis and survived. Now with the two larger guppies, the third one feels braver and comes out in the open sometimes. My youngest says forcefully that "Laddie is a meanie!" and I should get rid of him.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*I was wrong, wrong about my paradise fish.*

I first noticed a few days ago: Laddie tries to eat but then spits out the flake. He looks normal, but just sits in a corner or in one spot at the surface, not moving. Seems to have a bulge at the vent. There's a white cloud minnow missing- at first I though did he eat it? and get a blockage? I fed peas to all the fishes but Laddie hasn't moved anything. At closer look today ugh, I think he's got camallanus worms. I see red narrow things sticking out of his anus, until he moves then they disappear. Maybe he didn't eat the missing white cloud after all, it could have died from the parasites and I never saw the body. The other fishes in here all_ look_ fine, but I've read it's an infestation that often doesn't show signs until too late. Must have come in with the guppies, or the newer white clouds, or the plants I got from a goldfish pond at the nursery. Should have quarantined longer, or done a stronger dip on the plants. I looked closer and there's white pale debris on the floor of the guppy fry tank and some fish in the tenner have white stringy poo. I'm going to have to do huge water change and dose with levamisole- tomorrow- no time today and it will be a lot of work to nearly empty all my tanks while keeping careful to not cross-contaminate and sterilize my equipment and wash my hands between. I'm feeling glum about it, haven't paid enough attention to the tanks of late, that's for sure. Health issues in my family have been taking their toll on my time and focus again. Lately I just feed the fishes, glance in the tank and move on to what I need to do. Maybe I ought to get rid of some. Have a fourth batch of guppy fry in the 20H now. Found out an acquaintance has an aquarium and said she'd be happy to take some guppies, so there they go.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*treatment*

Yesterday I did fifty percent water changes on three tanks and dosed with levamisole. (The angelfish tank still looks okay and I don't know if my shrimp bowl got cross-contaminated or not.) I did a half dose for the guppies and the white clouds in the window tank. (Lost another white cloud, now only three). Moved Laddie out into a QT bin so he could get a full dose.








Covered the tanks to keep dark, checked on the fishes this morning. Laddie is already perked up more. He didn't eat but is moving around alert. Dark marks on both dorsal and anal fin, I've seen it before don't know the cause- but feel better now that he may recover.








When I did this treatment before, the floaters died. I put some salvinia minima aside in small containers just in case.








Found out why the sweet potato vine was faltering on top of the window tank. There's tiny aphids and mealy bugs again. Not very many- I dipped a toothpick and swiped them off the parrot's feather.








Edit add: I know I said before that I wouldn't care if I lost Laddie, because he bullied Perry. I didn't mean it! When I saw Laddie sick I felt bad for not paying more attention to the tank. I marked my calendar to be sure to repeat the levamisole properly this time around. (And for what it's worth, seems Perry tried just as hard to get through the barrier and fight Laddie anyways- I think it's what caused his final injury. I just liked him more!)


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well I finally guessed right- have siphoned tiny red worms off the floor of Laddie's QT bin. Pleasantly surprised that the fourth white cloud showed up in the main tank. Laddie still isn't eating but continues to look perky; the other fishes had smushed cooked peas. Not looking forward to cleaning this tomorrow- it will take a lot of time to gravel vac around all the plants. 

It took me over an hour to check on and spot-clean the floor of four tanks. I only have one pipette and didn't want to use a siphon hose draw out too much water and have to replace figuring out new medication dose- I just wanted to get out the shed paralyzed worms. So in between tanks I washed my hands, rinsed the wastewater receptacle with soapy water, and poured boiling hot water over and through the pipette. I don't know if it's useful at this point to try and avoid cross-contamination between the tanks as they're all infected. But I did it anyway. 

I sterilized all my siphon hoses, plastic cups, gallon fish water pitcher, clean and dirty water buckets, tweezers and aquascaping scissors after the initial water changes in hot water. Tried a method I hadn't used before- boiled water on the stove in my very largest pots and poured it all into a big cooler got it to be over 165 degrees and shut it up everything soaking for three hours. It held the heat very well- after three hours still too hot to dip my fingers in the water, I had to lift out the items with tongs. My hoses are all semi-opaque now. 

For the buckets I wiped those down with diluted bleach solution and then rinsed with boiling hot water as well as I could, several times until they no longer smelled like bleach.

When I do the big water changes tomorrow, won't have time to do all the sterilizing- it's a school day with a scheduled meeting as well- so I'll probably have to set everything aside and sterilize the next morning. Hope that's okay. Is this all overkill or is there more I need to do to be careful not to spread it? I've heard of camallanus worms wiping out people's entire stock, ugh.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Laddie still doesn't eat, although he eyed closely the bit of food I dropped in to see his reaction. I siphoned off the bottom of his bin and didn't find any more worms. But the white cloud mountain minnows in his main tank have worms protruding from their vents, so I'm holding off the large wc w/gravel vac for one more day hoping they shed those and I can do the big cleanup.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Great job! At least you know for sure now what it is!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

That's an excellent article you pointed me to, @Discusluv, thanks. I saw your note on the other thread- I was just going to ask you about the timing of second treatment; I'll do three just to be sure. (Dang, it's a lot of work)


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

So yesterday I fed the fishes garlic-soaked betta pellets. The white clouds and paradise fish mouthed the food, then spat it out. I siphoned out the bottom of tanks, have done the huge water changes, and spent several hours sterilizing all the tools (sprayed bleach solution, let it sit fifteen minutes, rinsed with hot water numerous times until odor gone). Today fed them all mini veggie pellets. White clouds ate but I didn't see them eliminate, so can't tell. Paradise fish isn't interested in anything.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Do you have a heater on this tank?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

No. It's always been room temp.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> No. It's always been room temp.


If you happen to have a heater I would measure temperature of water and raise it 3 degrees. Raising temperature slightly has been shown to increase metabolism and often helps resistant fish to eat.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ok, yeah, will do. Temp is 65 degrees in the tank right now. (My house is heated to 70 or 72 but it drops to 66 at night).


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> Ok, yeah, will do. Temp is 65 degrees in the tank right now. (My house is heated to seventy but it drops to 68 at night).


Its worth a try,


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

thanks


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well I didn't find my spare heater but nevermind, the fishes are all eating now! 








I kept a backdrop on this tank, as fishes seem to feel more secure with a dark side.








At least, they have better color








And my white clouds sure are feeling spunky. Two males are sparring and flashing their fins at each other, it's really something to see. Lots of chasing around the tank. Of course they're too quick for my camera but here you can see two flaring at each other (lower right corner of the driftwood chunk), third fish is a streak with a stripe just to the right of that (probably a female)








Maybe I will get some minnow fry after all. That would be_ so_ cool.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> Well I didn't find my spare heater but nevermind, the fishes are all eating now!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yippee! (happy dance!)


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yesterday my paradise fish didn't eat. Sitting in a corner just below the surface. I looked close- ugh, he's swollen around the vent again and I think I saw a red worm hanging. I did the tedious meticulous gravel vac job with a fifty percent water change on the three affected tanks today, then dosed the second round of levamisole and draped towels over to keep them dark. Sigh.

At least the guppies and white clouds are still flitting around with plenty of energy.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Uncovered the tanks and did all the huge water changes. Laddie chased up and down the front glass eager for food almost immediately. Glad to see that.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I suppose I should post an update tho I have no pics to share. Things have been kinda crummy here. Well, my fishes are all still alive. I did third treatment but not quite on the right day and wasn't able to clean all the tanks after properly. The guppy 20L got a huge wc but this tank hasn't yet at all- white clouds in here look fine but my paradise fish has clear/white poo again I'm so frustrated with it but unfortunately can't do much. Very long story short- my house had serious plumbing issues and is not habitable right now. Fumes make me feel very ill, trouble thinking, headaches and all. Had plumbers out three times already and it's still not fixed. Staying temporarily with relatives next town over. I go to the house to check on things, water the plants, feed the cat and fishes once a day- but ten minutes in the house and I feel ill again. Managed to clean the guppy tanks but didn't have the time to do this one. I hope I will soon- early next week looks like the repair will get done. But meanwhile I'm pretty sure Laddie still has the parasites and I don't know if will every shake it. Feeling very down. At least I can work on starting the garden outside (not feel affected by the problem indoors) some of the plants already think it's spring!


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

ugh, sorry to hear about the issues. your health is paramount so take care of yourself first! hang in there! a step back from the tanks may not be a bad thing either. wishing you better fortunes down the road.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

House plumbing issue is fixed. What a headache of a week. So very glad to put that behind us. My paradise fish is still here. This would have been a great photo, finally caught in an alert pose with good color- except for the reflection across his flank and tail.








Of course when I tried for another picture he would never stop moving!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*Long time overdue for an update*

Well Laddie is still here, but not very active. I still can't figure if he's sick, generally unhealthy, bored or just lazy. He only really perks up when he finds a snail or I drop in a few guppy fry (but haven't had any for a while). He seems to have trouble now eating harder foods- the NLS pellets or bug bites- goes easily for flake and betta pellets though. Sometimes still just eyes the food and lets it fall. I don't see any other symptoms other then the continued lethargy- no sign of worms, no fungus or torn fins or red streaks . . .








Other fishes are active and spunky. Three white clouds always chasing each other- still one fat female and two sparring males but never any fry. Three female guppies in here now too (from the tenner). I swear they're eating green algae off the glass- it's never looked cleaner (and I took the backdrop down again). Would like to get more white clouds, but not eager to go to the store.








Crypt moehlmanii has more new leaves-








Bolbitis fern a nice thicket (if fry hid, it'd be here)








Only a few vallisneria left, more in from edges, where they get more light probably








This rock has no moss. It all died. Now it just has algae. Why does my moss always die.








This is sad, too- the remnants of what was once one of my 'mother' crypts. They have just been barely hanging on in the angelfish tank. Figured it was time to move one or it would die altogether. The small green leaf in center is what grew as it started adjusting in here.








Still quite a few parrot's feather stems near the rear of the tank- very fine thin leaves- not very visible to the camera among the crypt undulata.








Above tank the parrot's feather is growing back now there's more sun. I did have to swipe off some aphids again.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*full tank shot*









I went back to using a background panel, white cardboard, with the upper edge tipped out against the window. Laddie seems a lot more comfortable now- acting normal. Cruising around the tank inspecting things, coming up to see what I offer to eat, even swimming along the length of the front glass when I walk by. Was he feeling exposed and thus stressed out by the excess light, after all.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*I have baby white clouds!!*

Behind on updates, so here's what happened:

*6/5/20-* Took pictures of plants. Still had white backdrop on the tank. Vals looking better:








Bolbitis fern lovely, I tied some pieces up higher on a bit of wood, and ceramic cave thing:
















Crypt moehlmanii making a new leaf








Parrot's feather is so light and fine.








Believe it or not I still have three bits of anubias pangolino. Tied one to the other rock where moss died- but then it came loose so is now floating around the tank I don't know where. I really hope I didn't accidentally pull it out when siphoning during a water change.









*6/8/20- * Had been watching my three white clouds for a long time wondering why the fat one never gets thinner. Even when I feed them less- letting them subsist off algae and aufwuchs most days of the week (the guppies are totally fine with this and I spot-feed the paradise fish)- this one doesn't slim down. The other two flare their fins and dance broadside to each other so I think those are males and the fat one a gravid female. I was reading up on it the other day, info says white clouds breed as easy as guppies, but need soft plants to spawn in, like java moss. I wondered if subwassertang would do. So I transferred the two mature female guppies into my 33L, and moved the white clouds into the half-filled 20H- swapped 'em.








After a partial wc. Did another large water change on a day of thunderstorms, and then added some new leaf litter too (because the white clouds were dashing around displaying to their reflections in the bottom glass). I saw lots of display and chasing, and thought the third fish started to look a bit less fat? but can't be sure.

They certainly have nice colors
















Caught one male with his fins spread








Days went by, the fat fish still fatter than the others, and no sign of fry. Started to think this individual is just a glutton, or has a parasite load.

*6/10/20- * I started feeding the fishes garlic, because suspect at least one white cloud and the paradise fish, and maybe one of the female guppies that's thinner, had parasites? Soaked betta pellets in garlic juice one day, crushed bits of shrimp pellets another, and am going to spot-feed the paradise fish flake dipped in garlic tomorrow. He's more alert!








For a long time again he'd been listless, uninterested in food, and often makes a snapping sound while jerking his head, as if chewing, then darts to the surface to breathe. I wondered did he have something stuck in his throat? (maybe its him eating the snails) Then I saw white stringy poo. Siphoned it out of the tank the minute he finished going, and considered using meds again. He also had a hint of white patch behind one pectoral fin, and on his head. But after I fed garlic-soaked food that went away, and he started showing interest in things again, snatching at snails, looking at me through the glass, even cruising across the front of the tank and waggling his tail again. I'm going to keep up the garlic food and extra water changes for a while, before trying another round of medication. I ran out of levamisole so it would have to be prazipro or general cure right now.

A few pics of the plants- here's my crypt moehlmanii. It's all brighter lit because I took the backdrop off again. There's five grown female guppies and two fry in here, they spend a lot of time plucking algae off the rear glass and it's actually staying relatively clean.








Buce 'Selena' and the narrower one maybe 'isabella'








Bolbitis thicket- I'm sure this is where the fry hid, to evade Laddie.








The largest one is out and about now, smaller one I only see seldom. Here's the fry facing forward, above anubias








and just left of center near the crypt leaf that's broadside








So small! I'm surprised I don't see Laddie going after them, but maybe he hasn't felt the energy. He's really into going for snails right now.

*TODAY-* I fed all the fishes just now, and was thinking of moving the white clouds back into the 33 and tearing this 20H down- but sprinkled in some crushed betta flake and bent down to watch them eat. Thought I saw a speck of fly moving against the glass. Then realized it's_ in_ the tank. Then realized it was _a tiny baby fish_. Then saw there's _lots more_- white cloud fry!

Can't get a photo. They are _so very small_. The parents don't seem to be eating them- went after the food. I fed them well just to be sure. They get excited and gobble down the first bites alongside the fry. I did see a male flitting his pectorals in a begging gesture over the subwassertang bed a lot- but then had doubts again (yesterday) because the one I assumed female is nearly as bright in colors as the two males, and still looks plenty plump. Maybe she's not done laying eggs. Only reason I kept holding out thinking this was a female was because I never saw her display alongside the other two.

Well, now I can well re-populate the white clouds that died too soon in my 33L- and then some! I'm so very pleased! Of course, down the road it would be best to get a few more unrelated adults to mix in, as these three adults are probably siblings (just like my first guppies were), but I'll just enjoy what I have for now.

I shouldn't be so surprised, really- but I feel so giddy happy about this! I wanted more white clouds way more then I ever wanted extra guppies.

Glad now that I tested nitrates a few days ago when cleaning tanks- I skipped doing a water change on this 20H because it actually had below 5ppm. Phew- didn't unknowingly siphon out all the eggs/fry, and don't have to worry about doing a wc for a while- if so, I can put the hose in the fry box that's still in there, so it pulls the water through the mesh and doesn't get the babies.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*more fry!*

I can't count them- but there's definitely over two dozen. Easily thirty, probably forty or even fifty. Some are smaller than others, I don't know if that means they hatched later (the female probably laid eggs several days in a row) or are better at finding food. They couldn't quite eat the first bites powder- I saw them darting all over after it, but none of their bellies plumped up. So I've been giving them egg yolk. 

I boiled an egg, set aside about a quarter teaspoon of the yolk, and made a delicious deviled egg with mustard, fresh lovage and dill from the garden. For a feeding, I cut a small bit of cloth from an old, clean cotton pillowcase. Put a tiny crumb of yolk on the cloth, fold it up around, and pinch the yolk through the cloth with my fingers in a medicine-cup of tank water. It turns the water cloudy, then I drip that into the tank with a straw, near where the fry are hanging out. Not really difficult, and the small lump of egg yolk should last me almost a week in the fridge- maybe by then the bigger fry can eat the first bites. Before I feed them they look so slender- dot of eye and thread of tail. After feeding I look again and can just make out different shape- little pot bellies full of food. I'm feeding them three times a day, and in the late afternoon do a small water change with the siphon hose in the mesh box. Take out about a gallon, replace with half gallon fresh conditioned tap, and a half gallon from the parents' tank. I also spot-clean some mulm off the bottom with a pipette- this stirs some stuff up into the water column and then the fry seem to be feeding again. I do see little specks skittering around- copepods maybe but can't really tell if the fry are eating them. Thought I'd see the fry picking stuff to eat off the subwassertang, the leaf litter or the sponge filter, but nope- they always seem to be in the upper half of the water column.

I'm only going to keep a fraction of these to live in my 33L- Aqadvisor tells me a dozen white clouds is max for that tank and my filtration. So when the fry are larger, I'm probably going to cull the smallest ones and just grow out ten or twelve. Even with daily cleanings I don't think I can raise forty-plus fry to adult size in ten gallons (with a 24" x 12" footprint). I have to grow them out that big or Laddie will eat them in the home tank. Ten maybe I can manage. When it gets to be fewer fry on cleaner food (first bites as soon as they can manage it, then I'll give then gold pearls, crushed flake and pulverized hikari bio-gold) I can probably do every-other-day or twice-a-week water changes.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Very exciting! Congrats on the babies!!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

It's been a week since my first white cloud mountain minnow fry showed up in the 20H. Some of them are probably a few days younger; there's a visible size disparity. On the larger fry, I can now just make out a spade shape of caudal fin forming, and a brilliant sky-blue sparkle of color near the eye. The smaller ones are still moving dots with thread of tail, to my eye. Yesterday was the last feeding of egg yolk I did. Today I gave them first bites, and the smaller fry couldn't eat it. Waited half and hour and then I did the first cull- removed some of the smallest ones whose bellies didn't plump up with food. There are _way_ more than I estimated at first. Using a medicine cup and waiting for them to come near surface, I scooped out thirty tiny fry- counting by tens- and fed them to my dwarf guppies (that's how _small_ these are!) and the tank of black skirt tetras and angelfish. Tried to count the remaining fry- there's still easily twenty-five or thirty in there.

I did try to get a few photos- this was the best one- fry is just above/right of center, where the fake plant stems meet base. Can kinda make out the bit of color and shape of tail- I can see this much better with my naked eye than my camera manages to capture!


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

great news on getting the fry! awesome that you have happy fish.

I just read your whole journal and was sad about the first paradise fish that you lost. So sad that you've had so many different parasites and issues with new fish


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks, @monkeyruler90. It's probably my own fault, for not doing better/longer quarantine, not following through when treatments require another dose after weeks... My Laddie still has good days, bad days. I have to remind myself I got him from a LFS that had thrown him in with a bunch of other fish in their plant growout tank, not intending to ever sell fish from there. No idea how long he was in there- the employee said it was two or three years- he could easily be carrying some disease or parasite from that time.

I am pretty stoked about these fry, though!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

This morning I took another twenty fry out of the 20H, fed them to the angelfish and tetras. So I've culled out fifty total now. And there's still more than twenty remaining for me to grow out. Most of these appear to be eating the first bites without trouble.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Not this tank, but they're destined to live in this tank, so this is where I'm putting the notes about my white cloud minnow fry. Three weeks old tomorrow. They're growing fast! 








I'm feeding them four or five times a day now- most of the feedings are first bites, and once a day they also get something pulverized from my regular fish foods. I'm doing partial water changes every other day now- two gallons- and have filled their tank a bit more, it's holding eight or nine gallons now. 








They all have a bright sky blue streak from the eye across the body now, and I can see red color in their triangular tail fins. Five fry in this photo-








I do see them picking at things off the leaf litter now
















and off the sponge flter








These photos are from today. 
















Sky blue streak!








My favorite photo so far, even though it's not clear:


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

White Cloud Mountain Minnows are awesome fish! Great colors! I also really like the golden variety. Your tank is looking good. I wish my 33L looked half as good as yours does!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks @Blackheart. I just did some cleanup and small rescaping on my 33L- regrouped a few plants, did some trim/replanting. Need to take pics again soon!

I culled another 10 white cloud fry this morning. Scooped out some of the smaller ones- There's still about twenty left- so must have originally been eighty fry! I think I will quit culling now and grow these out another few weeks, then give half to a fishkeeping friend who's asked for some, and grow the remaining ten to full size before introducing to my window tank.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*I'm starting to feel bad about Laddie*

I looked back through my journal, and his symptoms are very like what Perry's were- listless, slightly swollen appearance in the belly but very little appetite, pale color. For long periods, then having one or two good days, then just hanging at the surface again. He doesn't even notice the guppies swarming around him to grab food. He only eats if I offer garlic-soaked flake and even has trouble getting that down now. He's been doing poorly for over two months now. I just kept hoping every time I saw him suddenly acting lively and spry again, that he was finally improving, but it doesn't last. I suspect it's a virus- especially because there's viruses that gouramis get that aren't as contagious to other fish species. That would explain why the guppies and white clouds dart around looking totally normal while Laddie is so unwell.

I am starting to wonder if it would be kind to euthanize.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My little white clouds are four weeks old and they actually look like tiny tiny fish now. I can easily see all the fins- anal and dorsal as well as caudal. I tried three times to get photos today and this was the best could do- because they never stop flitting around!








Had my first actual casualty- I did a water change and hours later found one dead fry in the tank- with edges degraded. At first thought maybe it starved, because I'd accidentally skipped one of the midday feedings. But later saw a very tiny one, so obviously if that one didn't die from missing a feeding this one wouldn't (it was as large as most). I think it may have gotten caught by the hose suction against the mesh side of the box when I siphoned water out.

The tiniest one I saw in the evening- most of the fry then congregate loosely about an inch under the water surface behind the mesh box. I saw one that was less than half size of the others- still just looked like a tadpole with spade tail shape barely visible. I culled that one

Few more blurry pics:


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

Looking good! I just got some of the Golden variety recently and they are awesome.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My white cloud fry are growing, growing. I'm feeding them four times a day now, gold pearls or pulverized regular foods. One looked like it had half its caudal fin missing with white on the edge- fin rot? I quick did a water test- nitrates below five so that's fine- and a three gallon water change carefully siphoning all the bottom. Also removed a few of the oak leaves that are starting to break down. 

Later I culled five fry- the one with half a tail fin missing, and some others that were still half size to the main group and couldn't manage to eat the gold pearls yet. It's easier to take care of them now- they actively dart after the food instead of just kind of meandering around nabbing whatever happens to be in front of their face, and missing a lot (tons of new little ramshorn snails tells me how much food they'd been missing!) I feel like I could probably go to doing wc two/three times a week instead of every other day, but haven't made that step yet.

They now look a bit like neon tetras with red tails-








Still hard to get photos- they are _so_ quick and never pause.
















Here's a corner shot of my window tank in the sun. I'm now putting up the white cardboard backdrop on the hottest days (had some thread or hair algae growing on some plants near the back glass, and on the sponge filter. Funny moment- one of the guppies tried to eat a strand and was jerking around like a fish stuck on a line- I reached in with tweezers to pull the algae strand out of its mouth- it was very long, more than ten times the length of the fish!) and on cloudy days or ones with multiple thunderstorms, I take the backdrop down again.








So- Laddie my paradise fish was back to hanging at surface lethargic, after two days of looking well and eating eagerly. He went half-heartedly for bits of shrimp pellet yesterday, but spat it out. Had a worse bout of gasping with that odd noise. Now I wonder if he's got gill damage. I have dosed this tank with levamisole and prazipro before, Laddie is still ill. I looked for instructions on how to do a potassium permanganate dip, and how to take skin or gill scrapings to look under microscope but honestly I'm nervous to do either. I reconsidered all his symptoms- pale, mostly clamped fins, lethargic, no appetite, hanging at the surface, sometimes flashing off the filter uplift tube, seeming to gasp for breath. Now I think could be gill flukes? but I fear if I try to take a gill sample I'll hurt him.

I looked through my box of fish meds and last night dosed the tank with general cure (praziquantel and metronidazole). I have enough to do a complete round- two doses fortyeight hours apart- and then will have to buy more to repeat in however many weeks this parasite reproduces- or use prazipro to continue treatment (still have a bottle of that, but not sure how much is in it). 

I think maybe I'm on the right track- Laddie looks _much_ better this morning. He's alert, looking at me expectantly through the glass, went after flake, even competing with the guppies and minnows for food. He's moving about the tank at normal levels, inspecting stuff with interest, not hanging at the surface, and fins are not so clamped. I'm glad to see him better but have to figure out when to repeat treatment and what to use (get more general cure or just go with prazipro).


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

On August first I started treating the window tank for gill flukes. I'm using Prazipro (praziquantel) and doing month-long regimen I've seen detailed several times here on the forum. It's repeated doses and water changes and substrate cleaning at five or six or seven-day intervals... So far, seems to be helping- Laddie has perked up a lot, quit gulping for air, fins no longer clamped and his appetite is improving. 








He was looking poorly last night (day five of treatment), and this morning right after dose started darting around as if irritated, but now cruises in various levels of the tank and eyes me expectantly through the glass (I fed him mosquito wigglers yesterday, he really liked that!)









In the 20H, destined someday for this tank, White cloud fry still growing! I have tried again to count them and think there's thirty in there. I thought I would ease up on water changes as they got older, but nope. Still doing a partial wc every other day, or every third day if I get extra busy, but changing out three gallons at a time now, instead of two. Because the fish are bigger, and eating more, so I want to be sure to keep the water clean enough, until I can give some away to my local fishkeeping friends. They're seven weeks old now. Best photos I was able to get today:


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

Looking good! Sorry if I overlooked this, but what do you run your tank at temp-wise?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Blackheart said:


> Looking good! Sorry if I overlooked this, but what do you run your tank at temp-wise?


It's unheated. So fluctuates- right now average temp 72-74°, in the winter it drops to low as 68° at night.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> On August first I started treating the window tank for gill flukes. I'm using Prazipro (praziquantel) and doing month-long regimen I've seen detailed several times here on the forum. It's repeated doses and water changes and substrate cleaning at five or six or seven-day intervals... So far, seems to be helping- Laddie has perked up a lot, quit gulping for air, fins no longer clamped and his appetite is improving.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 So happy to hear that Laddie is doing better. :smile2:


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks, @Discusluv

I made a mistake w/the treatment already, though.

Saturay was day 8, but I had lost track of what day it was and thought it was the 7th. So what happened was I dosed three days in a row Prazipro (instead of 2) and did the partial wc w/vacuuming the next day (Sunday). Now should I do the next partial wc on the 14th which is 5 days out, or bump my treatment calendar ahead a day and do it on the 15th, 6 days out. Does it matter... ? 

I don't want to give the parasite an edge and have to do this all over again.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Just keep to where you would be if you hadn't messed up.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ok, thanks much.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

JJ09 said:


> It's unheated. So fluctuates- right now average temp 72-74°, in the winter it drops to low as 68° at night.


Ahhh. I see. In my tank, I had been keeping Golden White Clouds for a little while, but they started dying with no clear reason why and the other fish were fine.  I am wondering if it was too warm for them in the tank. My temp is around 77.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yeah, I think their optimal temperature is 68-72 range.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Today is the nineteenth of Laddie's treatment for gill flukes. First time since it started I saw him flash, once, against the filter uplift tube. Next dose of meds is day after tomorrow. Otherwise he looks great- is eager to eat, good color again- his tail is getting redder! - and he dashes around so much when I'm in front of the tank, it's hard to get photos again!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yesterday my paradise fish flashed again, a few times. Today he is hanging at surface. Not gasping, and still eating, but listless. Next dose of medication is in two more days...


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> Yesterday my paradise fish flashed again, a few times. Today he is hanging at surface. Not gasping, and still eating, but listless. Next dose of medication is in two more days...


Ugh-- so sorry. This poor little guy. And frazzled keeper. :wink2:


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I've added more hornwort stems into the tank (trimmings from the 45), pegged down into substrate. For the summertime it makes the tank so green, and cut out the algae film on the rear glass completely. No more backdrop needed to cut out the sun, seems balanced for now.
















Side view through the short end. 








My white clouds are spunky! I wonder now if I kept loosing some earlier, not from Laddie eating them, but because of the gill flukes... (or maybe they died from flukes and _then _he ate them)








Today was the last dose of prazipro. A water change in seven days completes the treatment. Fingers crossed all better. Laddie is perked up again. Went eagerly after betta micro pellets today- first time I've seen him eat those since he got sick. Even flared a few times. (At what, I couldn't tell). 








The minnow fry are ten weeks old today.








Getting harder to take photos of them. 








They pretty much look like the adults now, just half the size. Some are starting to show white band on the edges of the unpaired fins. 








Two or three of them have very short dorsals- as if they only have 3-4 dorsal fin rays instead of the usual 6-7. Genetics? or poor water? I tested today- nitrates 10-20ppm. I'm bumping the wc schedule back up to every other day, until I can move some of these fishes out. 

I'm now feeding them gold pearls once or twice a day, and crushed regular flake or pellets the other time. Also live mosquito wigglers twice a week when I clear out the bin I have set up outside. Seems like I never have enough of those, ha. Tip small container of wigglers into the tank, they're gone before I blink.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*9/10/20*

Today I felt like doing stuff to the window tank, so I did. Trimmed and replanted a bunch of hornwort stems, multiplying them again. 








Trimmed and replanted top of a submerged piece parrot's feather. Took out and threw in the compost all the unhappy-looking bits of windelov java on rocks. They never do great in here, plenty other plants doing well now, so why am I keeping them. Used the rocks from them to prop up either end of the driftwood bolbitis fern is growing on. 








So now the arch clears the substrate more, and I can admire the fern better.








Laddie looks great. But yesterday I saw him suddenly jerk about and flash against the uplift tube. I *dread *the thought he has gill flukes again. Hope it was just a momentary irritant of some other kind. He's super eager to eat and lively, inspecting things all levels of the tank. Going to feed him garlic tomorrow.








Started pegging down hornwort trimmings from the angel tank in the 20H. For more plant mass. 








The white cloud minnows are almost three months old, and I've started to see flirty behavior- some of them flaring, waggling the pectorals and diving into the subwassertang. Pretty sure those are the males. They're supposed to be mature at six months, so can't actually be breeding already? I need to start sorting out those I want to keep . . . 








Earlier this week I netted out ten that have truncated dorsal fins- as if someone cut off the back half. 








Kept them in the mesh box that's still in corner of the 20H, and fed two a day to the angelfish. It's a _very_ quick end. I do it when no one's around- my youngest would be upset that I'm feeding the unwanted fry to my angelfish. I won't tell- I doubt she'll notice there's fewer white clouds in there now. My friend who was going to take some of them had to downsize his tanks, so now I'm not sure if I will be able to re-home. Uneasy to have strangers come to the house during time of covid. So the ones that don't move into my window tank, might also become angel food . . . 








Sorry, little fishies.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

I am totally jealous of your white clouds. I want some for my 33 long!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

If only you were same state and could come pick some up! One jumped into the mesh basket- three times in a row, after I netted it out and put back into the tank area. I think it was a female being pursued and overly harassed by some of the males. After the third time- I fed that one to Miss Beautiful. Expected to see more females getting chased, but nope everything is calm now in the 20H. Maybe just that one had reached maturity and become attractive to the males? I dunno.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*I don't know what to think-*

My paradise fish seems poorly this morning. His color is fine, his fins aren't clamped, but he's hanging out near the surface again. Eats but not eagerly. I haven't seem him flashing but suddenly heard that dull clicking sound again, looked at the tank, saw him gasping for air. Later on he's hanging at the surface, fins flared but head slightly tipped down, and a guppy is _picking at his side_. Nipping him over and over. Laddie doesn't move for a while, then swims off a bit, the guppy comes back and picks at his spread tail. Could Laddie have some kind of external parasite the guppy is picking off? I don't _see_ anything. Or is he so very ill the smaller fish knows he's a goner. 

It makes me feel very glum. I sorted out my young white clouds today. Five that look very flashy, bold red/black colors on the tail, broad white band on the dorsal fin seem obviously male to me, I kept in the 20H. Seven that are slightly paler, yellowish body hue and only have a small white mark on the dorsal also a bit more plump in the body from top view, I assume are female- those went into one of my extra fish bins (with small sponge filter, a few fake plants, handful of subwassertang and hornwort from their growout tank). Going to re-home those if I can. Six more I'm not sure about went back into the 20H for now. I want to keep mostly the males.

I was thinking of switching fishes- putting Laddie in the 20H by himself and moving _all_ the young white clouds to the 33L to finish growing up. They're still small enough he might eat them. But now I can't decide. There's _tons_ of subwassertang in the 20H - it multiplied and multiplied! I'd love to sell or RAOK that after done keeping white clouds in there; wouldn't feel good about doing so if I had a sick fish in that tank would have to compost most of it instead . . .


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

This morning Laddie's somewhat better.








Not great, but he ate garlic-soaked micropellets just fine, is alert again and actually _looks_ at me. 








I don't know if going through a full thirty-day treatment of kanaplex again would help any. Did I not really get rid of all the gill flukes I suspected? Does he have a lingering virus? or just feel unwell after eating too many snails? I don't know. Think I have to accept the fact that he's just chronically ill, will have good days and bad days. I can't keep stressing and worrying over treating him. Who knows what he's harboring after having lived in the LFS tank for so long . . . 

Yesterday I re-homed half my remaining young while clouds. Kept eight, which joining the adults in the window tank, will make a school of eleven. Soon. A bit more growing to do. I crushed some shrimp pellet to feed them last night. And my smallest white cloud took the biggest bite. This one is a third smaller than the others, but has great color so I'd hate to loose him. Now it looks like his mouth is jammed stuck open. 








I thought given a bit of time, the food bit might soften and he'd be able to spit it out or swallow it. 
















But it's been all night and half the day now, still stuck:
















It's sad because when I fed the others breakfast, this one came up put his mouth to bit of food- over and over- but of course he couldn't eat. I hope he works it out.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

He's okay now! I'm glad I didn't try to catch him last night and let it resolve on own. And hey, look at the other one flaring I caught when I was getting pics of the injured fish:


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## Seedreemer (Sep 28, 2008)

I’ve enjoyed this journal. I sure hope Laddie makes it.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thank you, @Seedreemer-

I hope so too. I looked back thru my posts yesterday- I've had him just over two years now. And supposedly he lived 2 years in the fish store before that, so my guess is that he's four, perhaps four and a half years old now. Expected lifespan is five to eight, up to ten if really well-kept and healthy. But considering all Laddie's been through, I wouldn't be surprised if he's starting to wind down now. Today he's had periods of listlessness, but took an interest in things when I was cleaning the tank (I did quite a bit of trimming/replanting). Guppies were picking at him again, really bothers me to see that.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Got a few pics of that little white cloud that was injured- looks fine from this angle 








Here he's the one in foreground center, w/another fish just behind. Can see the jaw is mostly closed, and red. Think he'll be fine though. I've seen him eat.








When I re-homed half the young minnows, a ton of subwassertang went with them- there's still enough left to keep the fishes feeling secure, though. It fluffs up and starts multiplying again pretty quick, it seems. I spread out the hornwort stems and dropped a few of the fake plants back in here for more cover. 








Short end of the growout tank. You can see I used ceramic rings to hold down the hornwort. It works.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*flashy fish*

As in showing off (not as in glancing off objects)








I moved the female guppies out. My trio of white clouds in here almost immediately started chasing, displaying, flaring, practically doing a jig in the corner.
















I am pretty sure they are getting ready to spawn again. I had always assumed they were not spawning because of Laddie- now it seems must have been the guppy presence inhibiting them. 
























One of the males seems to have proved himself over the other, and I've been watching the female and this dominant male, vibrating their fins and quivering alongside each other. Once they did so while rising evenly through the water column together. The plump female puts on almost as much show as the male. Male and female, side by side:
















Of course, I don't _need_ more white clouds- but it's nice to see them feeling so lively.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Finally gave up on my paradise fish Laddie. He's continually pale, listless, hanging at the surface, mostly clamped fins- now also looks like fungus starting on his skin.








Is it still gill flukes? I don't know. Didn't see any flashing. And the other fishes in the tank are so active, flaring and dancing around each other in spawning mood. none of them look sick at all. On his last day I gave Laddie his favorite food- a red wiggler earthworm. He snapped it quick, but didn't color up with excitement like he used to, and right after went back to hanging still. Later in the day very unhappily I dug a hole under the hydrangea, and Laddie met a brick. With his head. This is my last picture of him.








Then I moved all my young white clouds into the window tank. (Because I need the 20H tank space for the black skirt tetras- see my 45 journal.) Very lively in here now! Lots of displaying and chasing. The larger, orangish fish among them is the mother, and the one with brighter red on fins is one of the adult males.
















It's nice to see them so exuberant, but not the same as having a fish that seems to _recognize_ you, drift over waggling fins and tail, eyeing you sideways through the glass expectantly. My smaller fishes pretty much only pay attention to each other. So I miss Laddie- and Perry before him- already.


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## Seedreemer (Sep 28, 2008)

Aww, I’m so sorry about Laddie. It’s obvious you did your best by him. Tank is beautiful!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Removed the emergent stems of parrot's feather. It was looking okay a week ago- and now suddenly I realized the foliage is all smaller, looks kind of withered, definitely not doing well. Probably because I added this not so long ago- some leopard vals (the pics were just before Laddie's end)


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Few weeks ago got some dwarf saggittaria from @Doogy262(thanks!).








For years I never thought of trying this in my tanks. Always read about people using it in high-tech setups to make a carpet filling in the foreground substrate. But I learned recently that it can grow fine in a low tech setup, it will just get taller- which is what I want! - and it can also do okay with temps down into to the low sixties. Max height is twelve inches, so this might work perfectly in my unheated window tank.
















I planted it in the middle, where all the weighed-down hornwort stems have finally come out. So far I haven't seen any melt. I expect them to grow rather slowly, at least until summer comes again.

Looking down at the middle:









Yesterday idly watching the tank I saw the minnows chasing and displaying a _lot_. It's cool to see two males vibrating their fins and rising through the water column side-by-side. Today the largest female is much less plump, her belly only slightly rounded. I guess soon could see tiny specks of fry darting around. Wonder how many might survive- I've read that white clouds don't eat their fry, but it will be hard for me to target-feed them powder food in such a larger space, and not sure how much natural food they'll find. 

During a cleaning last week, and the week before, found clumps of thread or hair algae. There's two areas where it seems to grow most. I pulled as much out as I could with tweezers, doubt I will get it all unless I cut the light or have fish in here that eat it again (seems guppies kept it in check somewhat).


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Last week one white cloud got caught by the siphon hose. I netted it from bucket and returned to the tank. I think it's the one that's been looking paler and thinner than the others- can't do anything but wait to see if it recovers. 

Earlier in the week lots of displaying and chasing again. It was really amusing to see three males rising through the water column, furiously vibrating their fins at each other in parallel. Most of them look bold, and bright fins. I dreamed last night that I found half-grown fry in the tank, and was anxious to clean algae off the glass so I could see them better (I don't have that much algae growth IRL) but never had the time it was frustrating me!

There's still some hair algae that I pulled out when doing a water change, but it's definitely less than before.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I put two shrimps in here. They can help clean up the hair or thread algae that's still in a few corners. It's been fun to watch them crawling constantly busy among and under the plants. So here's a bunch of pictures- amanos in the buce 'selena'








under a crypt








walking over the rock that I could never get moss to grow on
















blending in perfectly with the rock behind buce 'green wavy'








creeping back into the thicket of dwarf sag








walking through the stand of common jungle val (one has finally grown up to the surface btw!)
















I like having shrimps in here, though sad that it's only possible because I don't have a paradise fish anymore.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

New little shoot came up against the front glass- 








It looks like a crypt moehlmanii- same pale leaf color and longitudinal veins-








but it's so_ small_ compared to the others that have come up.








Not the same plant as the crypt becketti which is also nearby








The second-oldest crypt moehlmanii in the tank is sprouting a new leaf-








and the third, young one by the bolbitis driftwood is growing too, although its leaves remain a little smaller- probably because they get less light? Hard to see because still blends among the anubias foliage. Or maybe these younger ones are smaller because they just take a while to grow. I don't remember the second one that sprouted in my tank being much smaller than the original plant, though.








I was pleased and surprised to find a vallisneria growing off to the side behind the small group-








I do think it's the first of my jungle vals to grow from a runner since I planted this tank two and a half years ago.








Tiny speck on the glass- 








It's an infant ramshorn snail


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

from 05/02/21- 
I never thought I would have this plant: Madagascar lace. 








It naturally has these gaps in the tissue cells that make it look so pretty and delicate. I've read it can be a bit tricky to keep- if not good water circulation, the gaps tend to get clogged with detritus. Also it does better in cooler water but then naturally goes through a dormant period every year with dieback. Also it might all die back from the transplant shock so must have patience to see if it will live for me. 








It was a total surprise, came to me in this box packed with plants that a friend in the fish club gave me- from someone who is moving to another state and was thus taking down her tanks. Most of the package was some kind of spiral vallisneria- that's all gone into other tanks because need stable temperatures- but also this one madagascar lace, and one I can't identify. I think it's some kind of sword- it has a familiar rosette growth. Narrow leaves, though.








There were lots of snails. Brown ramshorns- like the one in pic above- and plenty of pond snails, with their cute little 'horns'. 
























I moved a few things last maintenance day. My dwarf sword isn't doing well. Maybe it needs better light. I moved it from the front back to the center of the tank. 








I cut and replanted tops of a few buces. Also moved some small ones into the shrimp bowl. And pulled out two small pale anemic-looking plants- this one that's been growing up against the front glass, and another from further back. The runners I slowly tugged out of the substrate led straight back to the first crypt moehlmanii- I think they're doing so poorly because too much competition from other plants nearby.








Quick attempt at a full tank shot- 








The white clouds are spawning again. Lots of excited activity low among the plants, quivering fins and males rising through the water column displaying side-by-side. I am not making any effort to raise fry this time with fine foods and frequent water changes. Found one week-old fry the other day, and promptly caught it to feed my angelfish. Simply because a dozen white clouds already pushes the limit of stocking in here.

My second generation of the minnows are all adult size now, I can't tell them apart from the original three parents. The two from the third generation are quickly maturing. They are both out regularly feeding with the adults in the main part of water column, now. The larger of the two is already half adult size, and the smaller one is a third of adult size. I tried for a few pics- young fish to the left here, adult male displaying lower right








Young fish in the center, in front of the anubias. They still have their brilliant pale blue streak horizontal from the eye- but hard to see that when backlit from the window. Looking in from the side view, they really are pretty. I must try for a pic that way, before they get older and loose the blue stripe.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

Looking great. We are both keeping 33 long tanks with White Clouds I noticed. 
I like the Madagascar Lace plant a lot. In some situations, it will flower. I had one years ago that did. I have found that it grows fairly decent in low tech. Any attempts I have had lately at keeping them has failed though and all the leaves just kept falling off.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I used to have aponogeton crispus, and that one would flower sometimes. Never got any baby plants out of it, though! 
I'm pretty happy with my white clouds in here- but I do really miss having a paradise fish. Hoping to make the drive out to a better aquarium shop (there are only chain stores near me) soon and maybe get a new one. Here's a few pics from today!








Mine are breeding yet again- summer's the time! Here's one of the fat, squared-off females (lower left). I saw two or three fry in the floating hornwort the other day, but there will be plenty more soon it looks like.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I put a white backdrop on my 33L and attempted a full tank shot:








The hygro is looking very nice, colored up on top.








I still like this rosette plant, and still don't know what it is. Seems to be doing well, whereas the dwarf sword I moved, isn't.








Here's another thing I moved- a new crypt moehlmanii shoot. It was growing out to the right of the thicket








I pulled it out very carefully, exposing the runner all the way to the parent crypt, shifted it to the opposite side (left, where it is now) and reburied the roots and runner. 








Madagascar lace plant continues to wow me. It has several more new leaves- youngest small and pale.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I'm excited to finally have a new paradise fish!








He's _so_ little- here getting acclimated to the QT- 








but already has great colors. 
















He's inquisitive, was nipping at things, pulling at the hornwort and moss strands in his tank, ate a bit of daphnia last night and made quick work of some flake this morning. Seems to have settled in very easily.

I just wish I could feel happier about his arrival. My thrill over having a new paradise fish- and I didn't realize _how much_ I'd missed Perry and Laddie until I felt so happy seeing this little guy in the QT tank- is rather dampened by my anxiety over the angels' health in the 55.

The two female guppies that were holding this QT cycled, have moved into the tenner with all the others. So now there's two male, and four female guppies in there. Plus a dozen more fry were born two days ago. I think it's overcrowded but the fry will soon be gone, and I'm hoping at some point to re-home the adults, make it a betta tank again . . .


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Let yourself enjoy your new paradise fish 😉 worrying that much isn't going to fix the problem... Even if it's just for a few minutes let yourself feel happy...


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

First the good: madagascar lace is sending up a new leaf shoot:








The crypt moehlmanii I moved a little while ago: I took some photos of it unfurling the leaf a few days in succession,






















now it's fully open and a second leaf is emerging at base of the stem. So it's fine.








White cloud fry! There's more than I thought. I counted at least ten yesterday. A few are large enough I can make out red color starting on the tail fin, and a sparkle of the bright blue streak. Here's one- left of center in the middle of the leopard vals. So tiny!








My two of the third generation, are almost as big as the other adults, now. They're only slightly smaller and I have to look close to tell them apart. But I lost one of the grown males. Yesterday saw he had an odd swelling low in the belly, directly over the pelvic fins. Few hours later found him floating listlessly in the plants, breathing but not moving otherwise.
















I scooped him out of the tank- way too easily- a very bad sign. Looks like something ruptured- internal bleeding. I don't know why or how it happened, but I do know it's not curable. I ended his suffering under a brick in the garden, where his body will now feed my pink clematis. 








I'm sorry, little fish. Your brightness will now merge with the flowers.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

That's so cool! I love seeing fish spawn in peoples' tanks. Keep up the good work.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

So sorry for your loss, but the clematis is going to be happy... Congrats on your fry!! Always so much fun watching those little things figure out the world around them lol.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks, yeah. Last summer I told myself I wasn't going to raise fry again, but now I'm thinking- if all goes well with my new paradise fish, maybe when he's ready to go in the 33, I'll move the fry into the QT so he doesn't eat them . . . and grow them out big enough to keep a few or sell/trade locally. Last time people in my local fish club were very happy to get them. It's just a lot of work, all the daily wc's to keep up with the extra feedings . . . I have to balance how tedious that becomes, with the joy of watching them grow!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Yeah, raising fry is a chore, no doubt. I've always just left mine in the tank and let the survivors grow. I can't be bothered to set up a separate grow out system.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I only thought of it again because I'll already have a smaller tank cycled, and it's got moss in it and I have handful of subwassertang I could use too . . . maybe. I'll see what kind of energy I have for that in 2 weeks when new fish is done with the QT.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

😂 my 800 gallon tank thread made me remark similar when thinking of breeding and remembering passing out cold in my fry grow out room and how upset my hubby would be. Definitely is a journey. Just let 'em grow where they are. A few will make it and you won't be stressed. If you're not getting the warm and fuzzies and you aren't excited to set up a grow out for them chances are it's just going to make you resent your decision. Wait until it strikes you as something you're looking forward to doing. That's just my 2 cents as I'm relearning to treat this as a hobby and not an obligation.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My paradise fish is showing better colors now-








It's kind of amazing to me how vivid he is- his color gets deeper when he's excited about food (or change in the lighting maybe, or when he's been flaring at his reflection on the tank floor)
















Even at a blur, just wow. 
























He's starting to get used to me, moving eagerly across the front of the tank when he sees me. Still hides when I open the lid sometimes, but comes out sooner again. Eats everything I offer him so far.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Wow he colored up really well!!!!! Congrats!!!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

While the angelfish tank is occupying my mind a lot these days, nothing could be easier than my 33L, or the centerpiece fish destined to go in it- my new paradise guy! He's still doing great in QT. Haven't quite decided on his name yet.








His final destination. I tried to get a full length photo today- both with window light coming thru








and with a temporary backdrop 








Noticed today that I'm pleased how the dwarf sag has done so far- even though it's not even half tank height yet. Nice grassy look there in the middle.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

So pretty!! He's gonna love his new home!! He's looking great!!!!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I named my paradise fish Tucker. He's so amusing. Not only does he zoom around the front of the tank when anyone comes in the room now- which my ten-year-old loves- but he is so eager for food he looks straight up when I open the lid and starts rotating in place. Then he'll jump. I can feed him off my finger. Except if I drop food _in_, he doesn't see it because he's still looking _up_, which is funny. 

Moved him into the 33L. So easy to catch. I simply filled a plastic bag with his tank water and let it sink in the water column. Gave him a few flakes, then put the last flake in the bag and tipped it sideways. He went straight in, I tilted the bad upright and lifted him out. No chasing with a net!








It's lovely to see him in his home tank. 
















He's still small- barely twice the size of a white cloud minnow, but so bold! Of course, the first thing he did was go up for a breath of air, spot a white cloud fry, and start eating them all. Then he started hunting snails. I have snails in my shrimp bowl that I can repopulate from, but I also pulled out a handful and moved them into the QT he just vacated. Particularly the horned pond snails, which I like.








Just in case I need the QT again soon, wanted to keep the cycle going.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

He's looking great!! He's so happy!! Congratulations!!!!! Lol, it least you won't be overrun with white clouds 😅


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Plinkploop said:


> He's looking great!! He's so happy!! Congratulations!!!!! Lol, it least you won't be overrun with white clouds 😅


Thanks! Yeah, a dozen white clouds is about all this tank can handle. He really is the personality of the tank, if you know what I mean.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

JJ09 said:


> Thanks! Yeah, a dozen white clouds is about all this tank can handle. He really is the personality of the tank, if you know what I mean.


It's his tank now 😂 I love their grumpy personalities!! So happy for you!!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

So I'd quit feeding Tucker off my finger because even though it was cute, I told myself: one day he'll jump out and land on the floor. He'd still look up and leap, though, if I didn't give bites fast enough, or if he didn't _see_ where the food went next to him in the water. Then I was feeding the minnows (Tucker'd already had his share) and I heard a _splish_ and felt drops and laughed: "oh, he splashed me!" but looked and he was on the floor by my foot.

I remembered to wet my hands- a quick dash sideways to dip them in a bucket of tank water that was luckily still sitting in the room. I kind of angled my hands next to him and he flopped onto my palm. I dropped him straight back in the tank. He seems unharmed- but _smart fish_- has learned from it! This happened two days ago and even though he still gets super excited, dashing back and forth across the tank front when I'm near and looking up eagerly when I'm feeding, he hasn't jumped again since, not once.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I still have a few white cloud fry from the last batch- I saved them by moving into another tank when introduced Tucker (just before he ate them all). They're in my ten gallon right now. Just reached the stage where they look like actual fish, but still so very little- smaller than an individual rotala leaf! And very hard to get a photo of, but I managed a few today. They have that brilliant sky-blue streak from eye to tail that's so mesmerizing. 
















(Showed somebody my tanks last week and he was sure I had neon tetras in here!)


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

The first pic I thought was a cardinal before I read the post. Beautiful color!!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Sad that today I lost one of the minnow fry- I only had two, in the ten gallon. Was doing a partial wc and one accidentally got sucked up by the hose. Not a problem- small enough it didn't get any injury in trip to the bucket, but when I went to catch it, the little fish darted at last minute and got pinched against bucket side by frame of the net. _Looked_ okay, but couldn't swim straight. Hanging at the surface, or spinning in circles head up. I think either its swim bladder or its brain got injured. 








Also sad that the best, close-up photos I ever get of these fish is when they're sick or hurt.








I watched it struggle for a while, (and the other one immediately hid, probably alarmed by the unusual movements). Then feeling very morose and guilty, I netted it (far too easy this time) and dropped in the big tank. Miss Beautiful had a quick snap. 

So now just one. It's only a few months old and I'm still leery to put it in the 33L with the adults. Sometimes, particularly when he hasn't eaten in a while (although I feel like I feed him well), Tucker now doggedly pursues a white cloud around and around the tank.
















I'm pretty sure he's trying to catch and eat one. They're too quick and agile, but I don't know if this younger one could evade him.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Tucker has eaten nearly all the snails in his tank. A few trumpet snails escape him because they burrow during the day- but now a lot of plants are getting too much algae on them. I've put up background again on sunny days. Makes it easier to take photos, so I tried for a few good ones of Tucker- but he moves so _quickly_ it's difficult as ever! He's grown a lot. Tip of anal fin reaches half the length of his tail! 








I've started feeding him one earthworm (red wiggler) a few times a week- he _really_ likes that.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Hello all, it's been quite a while. This tank is still running- though honestly I was struggling to keep up with the water changes for a while (due to a car accident injury I'm still recovering from) and starting to think maybe I'd phrase out keeping aquariums . . . but then I rescaped all of 'em, which made it interesting again! My white clouds are still breeding- I have two half-grown fry, one that's a few weeks old, and two or three more _just _big enough to see in there right now. I've had my current paradise fish almost a year and a half now (so I guess he's about two years old). Lately his color has been a bit faded, and his tail fin lost its pretty filaments- 








I didn't think there was much wrong with the tank because all the other fish look fine and there's_ fry_ in here-









but when rescaping a bit, I found some cyanobacteria against the back glass (which faces the window) behind a piece of hardscape that's covered in bolbitis fern. Yesterday I pulled that out of the tank so I could gravel vac really well in that area. I hope I got all the nasty blue-green stuff out- I_ think_ I did- but I've also blocked light from the window for a few days, ugh. Just proof how much my maintenance had slid down in quality. So I'm guessing Tucker had some fin rot because the water was dirty? but when I check, nitrates are 15 or 20ppm- maybe it's just TDS then. Not sure but hope I can get it back into good condition. I did water changes three days this week trying to get on top of it again.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

Tank looks good. I had some experience with Cyano about a year ago. It was pretty bad and all over my substrate. I chose to blackout the tank for around two or three days. It disappeared and never came back.


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