# GDA and possibly Hair Algae and BBA? What's a girl to do?



## coolblureason (Jun 3, 2007)

Okay, Lets start with the facts: 

45H Tank (about 2 months old, most plants/fish taken from established 15 gallon)
1 x 96W light from AH Supply, on 12 hours, also gets direct sunlight
Flourite substrate
Ph = 6.6, kh = 3 (very stable)
CO2 = 23ppm (pressurized w/solenoid)
1 Amazon Sword, Crypto, Ludwiga, Pygmy Chain Sword, Glosso (tiny bit)
Fish are listed in my signature

Dosing: 
Flourish Phosphorus 2x/week
Flourish Comprehensive Supplement 2x/week
Flourish Trace 2x/week

Now this is what my tank looks like currently: 









Obviously in the middle of Green Dust Algae (GDA) and am following the whole "leave it alone for 3 weeks" thing. I am on 14 days now. I am not doing any water changes because I dont want to knock it off the glass and start the whole horrible process over again. I am testing the water on a regular basis and no problems so far. When it reaches week three we will scrape it all off and pray. 

In the meantime, I can see that we have small green thread or hair algae growing on the heater and brown bead algae on the plants. AND it looks as though we have hydra (very very tiny, like the size of a newly hatched snail) on the glass! Cant show you a picture, my digital camera isnt that fancy. I am assuming something is out of whack and hoping someone could help. 

My first steps: 
1. Bought some Amano shrimp today hoping they will help the hair algae or the BBA. 
2. Light cycle down to 9 or 10 hours a day, pulling the drapes in the morning to cut down on direct sunlight. 
3. Dosing Flourish Excel in addition to my pressurized CO2 to combat the BBA. 

Other than that any suggestions? I am not sure about the ferts I am using, should I up them or cut them or keep them as is? Anything I am missing? 

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!! Thank you!


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## coolblureason (Jun 3, 2007)

Sooo, no advice? For those of you that have combatted GDA before, did you have no keep wiping the glass after the initial clean up or did it finally go away forever? I am starting to get nervous that I will be stuck with this forever. . . .


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Reducing the light cycle sounds Good. The only time I have problems with GDA is in response to sunlight. But I run lower light setups (2-2.5wpg) generally.

Is there any way to prevent the sunlight? That would be Your best bet.

HTH


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## GIO590 (Jun 25, 2007)

That is a very bad algae bloom for a tank that seems to recieve so much attention. Multiple things are definetly off...

Thoughts
*Lighting may be a major concern:*

The first thing that I would suggest, is that you keep direct sulight away from the tank, (It excells at growing algea). 
What type of light do you have? is it a CF? and what is its Kelvin rating. Freshwater plants grow well under 6,500 K light. 10,000 k or higher and acentic (blue) lights give off wavelenghts that are best suited for saltwater.

*Your principle concern is most likely:*
You put alot of suppliments into your tank!!!!
Considering how severe and wide spread the algaes (plural) are you have major imbalances. 
I suggest stop using all fertilizers and continue water changes and see if your tank's conditon improves.
I am particularly suspicious of the phosphourus suppliments, since phosphourus and GDA go hand in hand, and many test kits can't detect the minute levels of it present in a planted tank

Please find out the following info if you can

nitrate
ammonia
hardness
phosphates
potassium

Treatment
Stop or cut back on all fertilizers. Completely stop the phosphourus fert! Continue to conduct water changes while doing this
Stop all direct sunlight exposure.
Check lights for K rating

Hope this resolves it, but if it doesn't just keep at it, you will eventually find the problem and eliminate it. Post back and keep us informed


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

GIO590 is on the right track. 

You have a lot of fish, few plants and light is a problem. I would:

Reduce photoperiod to 6 hours daily. Prevent sunlight if possible.
Stop all fertilizers.
Clean glass of all algae and manually remove other algae from plants.
Do 50% WC weekly.

Also if you could reduce your fishload that would be beneficial.


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## fishymatty (Feb 25, 2007)

You can stop using the phosphate because the comprehensive has enough in it.
I get GDA this time of year too. In my 20g I dose 1 cap full comprehensive(3x recommended amount)
What you really need to do is shorten your photo period to slow it down and just clean the glass real good and do a huge water change. 
GDA is caused by spores not excess nutrients. You can't really have too much phosphate unless you don't have enough of the rest of the nutrients.
Anyway GDA is a direct result of too much light and spores.


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## Scottio (Oct 23, 2006)

Ferts don't cause algae.

Phosphates don't cause algae.

Nitrates and Nitrites don't cause algae.

Potassium doesn't cause algae.

Micros don't cause algae.

It's been proven time and time again.

Ammonia, high light, CO2 should be your major cause for concern. If your plant load is very high then it's probably not ammonia...

I agree you should definitely change your water though.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Scottio said:


> Ferts don't cause algae.
> 
> Phosphates don't cause algae.
> 
> ...


Actually you're wrong, they do cause algae. When a tank is unbalanced, as is the case, excess ferts do cause algae. 

I think you've been reading too much Tom Barr. If EI was the best way to dose a tank, I think Amano would have gone with excess nutrients instead of dosing lean like he does. 

Last I saw, Amano had hundreds of beautiful tanks with *no* algae. I have seen two Tom Barr tanks and the pictures weren't exactly revealing.

I respect what Tom has done and contributed to this hobby, but IME EI is not the most effective way to go.


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## fishymatty (Feb 25, 2007)

I have to agree with overfloater. Different algae are caused by different things.
Green spot algae would be caused by a lack of phosphate. But in most cases when your told that phosphate is the cause of your algae its kind of right but missing some important info. Its only too much phosphate because there is not enough potassium, iron etc.
Its being out of balance not as much as it is being too much of something.


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## coco9465 (Jun 1, 2007)

Ok, stop fighting over the fert. or any text knowledge you've read. 

Lets take a GOOD LOOK at her tank, does it says everything we need to know?

With minimum amount of plants (we can hardly see through the tank to count), but from her list (WOW) she had 53 fish/shrimps in total, this is lot of fish wastes. To make things worse, she does the fert. 2 x a week (trying to grow gravels?). 

Whoever said:"leave it alone for 3 weeks" to COOLBLUREASON should be band from this forum (LOL)

COOLBLUREASON, rule of thumb: If you enjoy keeping lots of fish in the tank, you need to find a way to remove the excess wastes.
** Adding more plants will improve the water condition since you have good lighting to grow them (plant heavily if the tanks gets lot of sunlight). ** Changing water is very important since you have large amount of fish in a 45 gallon tank. I won't worry about dosing fert. at this time, all your fish provide enough for small amount of plants you have, if you must keep up the fert, I will cut back on the dose by 2/3 the amount you are using.

Reduce the lighting hours to 4 hours per day (block the sunlight from the tank for now), keep the water change thing going till you can see the plants.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

coco9465 said:


> Ok, stop fighting over the fert. or any text knowledge you've read.
> 
> Lets take a GOOD LOOK at her tank, does it says everything we need to know?
> 
> ...


So you just repeated what I said. Vindication.


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## coco9465 (Jun 1, 2007)

Heyyy Overfloater, 

I don't want to take side, but yes (whisper), in so many words, we think the same:biggrin:


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## coolblureason (Jun 3, 2007)

*Tank Update*

First Off - thank you all for your replies. I know this is a topic that will be discussed as long as people own aquariums and a lot of peoplehave different views on what is best. I appreciate all the input I can get. 

So here is my tank after a 4 hour long session of scrubbing and scraping and major trimming: 



















If the GDA comes back I will just scrape it off as I see it and not wait like I did this time. 

As for the BBA - I cut as much of the grass that was infected as possible without tearing it all out, and have been dosing excel daily. I upped the CO2 today to see if that will help. I am going to cut my ferts to just the Flourish Comprehensive once a week. We do a 30-40% water change every weekend. 

It is a good point that I have a lot of fish and not enough plants to compensate. I will look into getting some additional plants to maybe put on that big piece of wood I have. Maybe a Java Fern or Anubias? I'll have to do some more research. 

So: 

More Plants
More CO2
Less Ferts
Less Sunlight
40% Water change once a week

I'll keep you updated. Thanks!


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Hmmm...Wouldn't adding more plants increase the need for more nutrients and hence require more ferts and not less???


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Hmmm...Wouldn't adding more plants increase the need for more nutrients and hence require more ferts and not less???


Not when you have as many fish as CBR does. If it were me I would stop dosing anything for a month and see what happens. 

CBR, the tank looks great since you went over it. It looks like you are taking the right steps. Personally though, I would move more towards stem plants vs ferns, anubias, etc. The large sword and chain sword you have now are primarily root feeders and don't absorb much from the water column.


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## GIO590 (Jun 25, 2007)

Nice tank, especially in comparison to before 

Using just flourish should be a great remedy to your current problem.
Since your tanks bioload is high and will probably remain high it will always produce a good amount of nitrate and some phosphates, but other macros like potassium or magnesium are still required. 

Once you beat your algae bloom it would probably help your tank greatly if you experimented with dosing K and Mg

Hope it all works out!!!


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## coolblureason (Jun 3, 2007)

*Its back!!!*

After less than one week, the dust is back.  

I am going to the fish store tomorrow to buy some more plants. Then it's scrape and clean and water change time!! 

This algae issue is really depressing. I am hoping that over time it will not be so bad. Im blaming new tank syndrome and too many fish. 

Ok, wish me luck AGAIN.


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## GIO590 (Jun 25, 2007)

Some fast growing plants would help greatly in your situation.
Your tap water may be high in some disolved nutrients its worth checking out if you are conducting frequent water changes.

Keep trying! Once the tank cycles the algea problem should take care of itself or at the least lessen substantially.


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## pittiepride (Feb 13, 2007)

Would a uv sterilizer kill the dust algae spores? I know it doesn't solve the problem but maybe give you a head start?

kara


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

pittiepride said:


> Would a uv sterilizer kill the dust algae spores? I know it doesn't solve the problem but maybe give you a head start?
> 
> kara


No. The spores will always be present. It is impossible to kill them all. A UV sterilizer is primarily used to kill viruses, bacteria, and GW.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

coolblureason,

How are your algae issues. I was drafting up a long response as to what has been successful for me along with a large number of members of this board, but then I saw that this thread was resurected after close to four months of inactivity.


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## coolblureason (Jun 3, 2007)

Well, I still have algae, however it is MUCH better than it was. I bought a magnetic scraper and use that once a week. The staghorn is gone, although I am not sure if it was the SAEs we bought, shortening the light cycle, changing the ferts . . . probably a combo of all of it. We also started doing a slightly larger water change every week. Now we have some GSA, probably from the high light, but nothing in comparison to the GDA that we once had. I think it was just stabiilty that was needed. We are still trying to get that "perfect" CO2 level, but it is higher than it had been. We actually ended up buying a digital pH reader because I wasnt satisfied with the accuracy of the test strips. That has definitely helped. 

So, in other words, the issue is better, but not completely gone.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Phosphates will help with GSA. You have to be careful though. Too much phosphates is a bad thing. I will melt some plants. I have recently found this out with my glosso. While it was kicking the GSA's butt, it was also kicking my glosso's. I am a firm believer that if you get your CO2 ironed out you will be in good shape. The algae will slowly recede. A little GDA and GSA is ok, but when you have major issues something is out of whack.

I'm glad to hear things are working better for you.


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## loachlady5 (Dec 9, 2007)

Overfloater said:


> Not when you have as many fish as CBR does.


This is an interesting point that I've wondered about for a while. I have a high fish load. This seems to contribute nitrate - but not much in the way of phosphate, potassium, trace etc. She may still need other fertilizers. I suppose lots of fish food could equal lots of phosphate, but maybe not if they actually eat it all.

Slight highjack (justified IMHO) - The other issue is that my nitrate is very low after a water change but gets up to about 10 or 15 ppm by the end of the week. According to low dosing, should dosing be done when the amount is too low but you know that it will be high enough by the end of the week?


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## loachlady5 (Dec 9, 2007)

GIO590 said:


> Using just flourish should be a great remedy to your current problem.


I have had problems from using a comprehensive fertilizer, and I have a high fish load. I think the problem is that my fish produce nitrate, but not much else. I also have plenty of iron already. Excess nitrates are bad for fish, and iron has been an algae disaster for me. I'm not saying people shouldn't use comprehensive fertilizers but that I prefer individual fertilizers since each tank is so different and you can fine tune so much more.


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## loachlady5 (Dec 9, 2007)

Overfloater said:


> If EI was the best way to dose a tank, I think Amano would have gone with excess nutrients instead of dosing lean like he does.


I've learned about EI. Where do I learn about lean dosing?

Also, I agree that adding fast growers is a great idea. If they start to bug you after you're algae's out of control, you can always remove some. They are not expensive. Personally, I like the way a lot of fast growers look. They can be a pain to keep trimming though.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

loachlady5 said:


> I've learned about EI. Where do I learn about lean dosing?
> 
> Also, I agree that adding fast growers is a great idea. If they start to bug you after you're algae's out of control, you can always remove some. They are not expensive. Personally, I like the way a lot of fast growers look. They can be a pain to keep trimming though.



PPS PRO is a form of lean dosing ferts. You can read more about it here:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/pps-analysis-feedback/39491-newbie-guide-pps-pro.html

PMDD Poor Man's Dosing Drops is also a form of lean dosing. You can read more about it here: 
http://www.aquabotanic.com/PMDDprimer.htm
http://www.aquariummalta.com/topic....Recipe&Forum_Title=Fertilizers+and+substrates
http://www.hydroponics.com/info/aquatics/PoorMansDosingDrops.html
http://www.kwas.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=537

If you are looking for a dosing strategy to minimize algae, this makes for an interesting read and I believe that PMDD actually evolved from this.
http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/freshwateraquariumalgae.html


To be honest with you, I don't totally buy the idea that excess phosphates can lead to algae, with the exception of possibly Blue Green Algae and I cannot say that I am 100% convinced that BGA is caused by excess phosphates. I set up a anti-algae repulsion 10 gallon as per my signature. If you follow my logs, you will see that phosphates as tested accurate calibrated test kit have always measured high for 6 months and yet I have noticed nothing other than BGA and some green spot algae on the cardamine plant leaves closest to the light and a couple of anubias leaves. Otherwise, no green dust algae, no thread algae, no black beard algae, no black brush algae, and no diatoms, and that is going on 6 months strong with phosphate llevels still testing off the charts.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Personally, I think phosphates keep algae at bay and in high levels adversely affect plants. I don't buy the phosphate algae correllation either.

I probably tend to overdose ferts into my tank with the exception of micros and FE. If anything, my algae is at a lower rate than it has ever been. I think that the biggest weapon against algae is steady CO2 injection. I don't suscribe to "out competing", over fertilizing, or a number of other things that are usually used to blame the algae situation. I feel that it has a direct relationship with the amount of light and photo period versus the CO2 injection into the aquatic system. If a person can counter act a tremendous amount of light with an ample amount of CO2, I don't think that an algae problem will exist. I don't think that this applies to BGA since it isn't even a true form of algae.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

The best solution to algae is experience. Amano has more experience with tanks than many of us will ever have. All algae free and healthy. His key points are CO2, lean dosing, and critters that eat algae. A common sense approach that anyone can understand. Amano shrimp are especially vigilant as they will graze non-stop and eat nearly any type of algae. Ottos are somewhat helpful and recommended, but not a necessity IME. SAE are occasionally useful for certain types of hairy algae that the shrimp will not eat.

This setup works. Why try to reinvent the wheel? If you see deficiencies, then you can address them individually. IME, I have been running high light tanks for years now, and rarely see deficiencies when a well balanced regimen is followed.


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