# Seiryu stone & Manzanita hardscape 95gal: pic/advice



## growitnow (Feb 26, 2007)

Hello,

First go at scape, 95gal. Seiryu stone and Manzanita driftwood. I would really welcome suggestions about how to make hardscape have more impact, or if what I have is "OK". I am not that clever on design, so I opted for functional planting zones.

Basic planting intention:

stems in left corner (hygro at planting, then later more attractive options)
blyxa japonica inside tri-stone area surrounding base of large center driftwood
behind large stone on right will be a big drift of Hygrophilia Angustifolia
needle leaf java fern en masse, variously on driftwood
mainly Starrogyne in foreground in front of rocks

I've seen far better arrangements with similar hardscape material so I'd very much welcome observations or suggestions. I have lots of other manzanita.

thanks,
growitnow


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

http://www.aquajournal.net/na/iwagumi/introduction.html


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## AoxomoxoA (Apr 22, 2010)

+1 on the link. Good stuff:thumbsup:

I would use either the wood, or the rock. However if you must use both, maybe try an off-center (or cornered) pile, with wood jutting from it?


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## hamsterman (Jan 17, 2007)

I would say to combine the wood and stones. Fiddle around with the hardscape a little til you get something you're really happy with.


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## growitnow (Feb 26, 2007)

Many thanks,

Not a huge change but I moved the wood 'tree' over to the left, better exposing the wavy branches on the right. I see how having the branchy bits emerge from a pile or rocks makes a nicer effect. 

I also removed one of the stones so now each side of the tank curves in toward the center. I don't think it looks super-fantastic, but definitely better then before. I don't have a lot of small stone but rather larger ones, in addition to a rediculously huge box Manzanita.

Thanks for any feedback, I would welcome it. I seem to be good at buying stuff but not so good on actual design! 
growitnow


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## AoxomoxoA (Apr 22, 2010)

I think it looks greatroud: Really nice DW & rocks to work with. I need to get some similar & the starougyne too. The big rock on right with DW behind gives a good sense of depth. Have you tried switching it with the little one behind/next to it? Just to see the difference.

Now for the plants! Moss would obviously look really good on the manzanita, javas would help blend it into the rocks. Your other plant choices are wonderful, blyxa always rocks, can't wait to see the Starougyne grow in.

Have you thought about fish/shrimps yet?

(subscribed btw )


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## growitnow (Feb 26, 2007)

>Have you tried switching it with the little one behind/next to it? Just to see the difference.

Thanks for feedback dirtyhermit. If you mean did I try leaving wood where it is, and putting the big rock on the left, and the little rocks on the right - yes, I did try that. Thank you for suggesting it. 

When I did that the tall right part of the big rock seemed to 'take away' the empty foreground space at center of tank. I decided to try and protect that center empty space since aquascapes I like always seem have at least some open space foreground. I'm muddling through but look forward to the progression, as my first real go at a planted tank.


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## growitnow (Feb 26, 2007)

Did an initial planting. Still need to do the right side and foreground. And some clean up! On left side behind java tree is hygro corymbosa narrow leaf, and a few heteranthera zostifolia. In the back center is a good strip of hygro corymbosa angustifolia, then in back right corner is hygro corymbosa siamensis. Needle leaf java fern plus anubia nana/petite on java tree. Oh an the sword (Indian Red - way bigger than I wanted) is fronted by two crypts "Tropica").


Doesn't look like much...but we'll see.


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## Rodan (Apr 15, 2010)

Shouldn't your sword be placed so that it makes better use of the golden rule instead of in the center?


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## growitnow (Feb 26, 2007)

Rodan,
We at monster island agree! (coolest avatar and name I've seen).

The sword is Echinodorus Indian Red. It's huge and I did not know that but decided to put it in anyways "just to see". I plan to switch it out, if I can find a smaller red/dark sword.

I'll tell you what my 'intent' was and maybe some folk will assist me better at implementing that intent than I've done. The intent of the sword was not actually a centerpiece, but to create a dark spot in the rear foreground - as a way of enhancing depth.. The huge sword there now does not achieve this, perhaps something smaller (if such a sword exists), or red/dark crypts.

One of my two inspiration tanks was one of ingg's, a picture from which I post below. Original link follows. I like how the small sword in the center gives a dark appearance that seems to enhance depth. That was my intent but the large sword I used surely doesn't achieve that.

Please feel free to offer suggestions / critical feedback.

Ingg's tank journal:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/58768-180-gallon-planted-week-1-new.html


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## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

growitnow said:


> Many thanks,
> 
> Not a huge change but I moved the wood 'tree' over to the left, better exposing the wavy branches on the right. I see how having the branchy bits emerge from a pile or rocks makes a nicer effect.
> 
> ...


I think you should turn around the pieces on the right and group them with the pieces on the left.


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## Frogmanx82 (Dec 8, 2009)

The rock placement is just all wrong breaking all the rules xmas tried to explain through the link. You need to rework it, its just not pleasing. The sword is all wrong for sure.

Take a ruler, measure 62% of the distance from either side and create a focal point. Presumably with the big rock, balance the other rocks around that, blend in the wood and plants to accentuate the rock features. It will take some playing with. You have the pieces, you just have to place them and its hard to do on the first go.


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## Martin Schellinck (Jun 17, 2006)

A bit harsh, wouldn't you say? Besides, this isn't a traditional Iwagumi. The link provides guidelines, not rules.



Frogmanx82 said:


> The rock placement is just all wrong breaking all the rules xmas tried to explain through the link. You need to rework it, its just not pleasing. The sword is all wrong for sure.
> 
> Take a ruler, measure 62% of the distance from either side and create a focal point. Presumably with the big rock, balance the other rocks around that, blend in the wood and plants to accentuate the rock features. It will take some playing with. You have the pieces, you just have to place them and its hard to do on the first go.


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## growitnow (Feb 26, 2007)

Actually I very much appreciate the feedback. Though I am not going for traditional Iwagumi, as beautiful as those tanks are.

I agree that the visual impact is not immediately pleasing (regardless of style). This is what I wish to correct, and what I hope more clever folk will be generous enough to assist me with.

Regarding style of tank, for comparison I post my other 'inspiration tank', one of Tom Barr's. Ingg's tank (pic above) and the Tom Barr tank are the full source of my stone, rock, plant choices, and plant placement - though I have no illusion that I could copy either tank well. If the question was "what do I want my tank to look like?", the answer would be these two tanks. I find them fantastic. And there are elements in each that it has been my intention to model, however imperfectly. I welcome any feedback you might offer.

The bits I tried to model from Tom Barr's tank include: 
stones surrounding wood structure on left; two main "masses" of narrow/needle-leaf java fern on left and on right; dark crypt at center tank creating shadow (my giant sword, that will be replaced with smaller).

The main bits I tried to model from ingg's tank include:
the branchy bits emerging from stones on right with branches pointing to left; inward curving foreground with small dark sword near center. For planting, long strip of hygro angustifolia along center back wall, plus a lot of nonspecific stuff I really like about his tank.

I thought maybe if I posted these pics and described the things I was trying to achieve / model, this might help anyone generous enough to help me! 

Tom Barr's tank below (2 pics plus original link), followed by an update pic of my tank. Things were in motion and I had to continue to plant . I will not have a tank as beautiful as these but I do want to work toward something pleasing.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthrea...tank-another-gravel-swap?highlight=Redone+350


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## Aquaticz (Dec 26, 2009)

I am liking your tank , quite a bit.However for me the sword belongs behind your larger stone on the right. I kniw when I get stuck, I wait it out & let the tank start growing, then adjust from there. HTH nice work


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## knm<>< (Mar 18, 2010)

I agree with aquaticz, I'd move the sword behind the large rock. Otherwise, I think it looks good. Some blyxa in front of the stones would look nice too. Just a suggestion.


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## Frogmanx82 (Dec 8, 2009)

I don't think I said anything that growitnow hadn't already said. He knows there is room for improvement.

The 62% of the distance is the golden rule that applies to any aquascaping style. So on a 36 inch long tank, you need to establish a focal point 22 to 22.5 inches from either side. It could be a rock or plant, but something that draws the eye very quickly when looking at the tank. 

For your tank, I would use the big rock. If you set it a bit toward the back, but keep anything in front of it low so as not to block the view of it. Now you have the big rock way to one side, its just not set up in the right spot. The sword could be a focal point, but I usually prefer to use hard object that have interesting shapes as plants are always changing. The sword is centered too much. You really shouldn't break the golden rule unless you're a lot more confident in your design skills.

Use the wood to point to the focal point presumably the big rock, and maybe use the smaller rocks to form a small inverted V so that they lead the eye to it. 

In the end it's what makes you happy, but I know from messing with my own tanks that I'm often not happy with my initial attempts. Sometimes it just takes playing with. I'm curious to see how it turns out.


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## Ranbaral (May 3, 2010)

The "1/3" rule that frogman describes would improve your scape a lot. This is one of the fundamental rules of a lot of art forms, including painting and photography. Weighing anything towards the middle usually doesn't usually offer the most interesting results (but there are exceptions!).


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## rountreesj (Jun 12, 2007)

i think sword is too big to be out front. slope substrate more...i usually do 1-3 inches up front, and as much as 8 or 9 in the back, use height to your advantage to create a sense of front, middle, and rear...ground.

i'd suggest placing the driftwood over the top of the rocks, angling toward the glass, and plant on the rear portion of the wood, leaving the front bare. and leave just an inch or so behind the driftwood for sword and/or stems.


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## growitnow (Feb 26, 2007)

Thank you very much for the feedback, it is appreciated!

I will let things grow in a bit and stabilize - then move hardscape around. 

For my level of 'skill' and as my first tank, it is hard to envision what a new placement of stone/rock would do visually without also being able to see the plants a bit more grown in. I will post back and harass those who are kind enough to offer feedback:red_mouth.

growitnow


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## growitnow (Feb 26, 2007)

This is Day 14 after planting.

Have not adjusted hardscape or removed center sword -- yet. Will wait until plants fill in and tank has demonstrated some 'stability'. Some growth, so far no algae, light bioload.


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## discus-jack96 (Mar 28, 2010)

wow that scape is actualy realy nice top marks


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## growitnow (Feb 26, 2007)

Day 30 update. Continuing to grow in. Will likely try and move stuff around in a month or two, as long as everything doesn't fall apart in the meantime!

Removed large Indian Red sword. Sword was surely misplaced but I miss the red color.


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## hamsterman (Jan 17, 2007)

looks like it's coming together really well! Good job with your progress!


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## rountreesj (Jun 12, 2007)

looks very good!!!! If you miss the red, may i suggest planting a rotala colorata, or redder variety rotala just in front of the blue intake tube there, in the mid left of the rear of the tank. and possibly rotala indica or rotundifolia in the mid right rear.


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## wearsbunnyslippers (Dec 6, 2007)

some alternanthera would also add a splash of color.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I like it. This is a good example of not scaping for the moment but rather, scaping for a goal. I'm sure you didn't mean to do so (judging from the questions you had), but your current look would not look the way it is if you hadn't scaped it the way you did. It looks great!

No fish?


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## growitnow (Feb 26, 2007)

Hi, thanks for looking. As the plants fill in it looks better than I thought it was going to. 

rountreesj,
Thanks for rotala suggestion, and for SPECIFC indication of where some red might look good - this is quite helpful to me.

Can you or others give me a heads up on rotala. I've heard some say it can be 'difficult' though that might be specific varieties.

I run only 110w 8hrs plus 220w for 2hrs of photoperiod. (4x55 CF: 110w on except for 2hr burst of 220w). Any relevance to growing rotala?

Also re: color - I will never likely 'starve' plants of NO3 to enhance red because I like the simplicity of good EI dosing. So - any rotala mentioned that has better/more pleasing/more variable red than others?

thanks,
growitnow


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## ryndisher (Jun 1, 2010)

Tanks looking great.  Do you have any fish in that tank, I couldn't see any?


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Growitnow, what you're trying to do is tough because all of your inspirational tanks are much bigger than what you have. I think you still should seriously think about rearranging the rockwork. They are nice large pieces and with some work could really really look much better than they do now. 

As for the shadowed sword, I think you made a good choice using a crypt instead!

-Andrew


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## growitnow (Feb 26, 2007)

A Hill (and anyone else listening :icon_bigg),

I agree. To be honest, I was surprised how quickly floor space was consumed by the rocks and wood. This is a 'large' tank for me and empty seemed huge!

It is nice of you to encourage me to move the rocks around. I really do want to end up with something that may not be super fantastic - but that is immediately visually pleasing, as are my inspiration tanks of Barr and Ingg. I want to benefit from your suggestion echoed by earlier and generous posters - that the rockwork is misplaced, and perhaps the wood also. I absolutely plan on taking advantage of those suggestions. 

Tank is about 5 weeks old. To be honest I am surprised the bottom has not fallen out which I am almost waiting for. I have had no algae outbreak. Plants are growing but "stuff" is starting to happen (GSA establishing a strong presence & some plants highly chlorotic despite strong iron and other dosing, some plants looking more crappy than nice up close). It is clear I need to continue to work on dosing, CO2 & current before the tank can be considered 'stable'. I am quite scared to touch anything until that happens. 

Trying to figure everything else out as a first new and large tank is much to deal with - though so far 'fun'. I will try my hand at rescape when things have settled in. 

But please DO offer observations & criticism, these have been quite helpful to me. There are so many amazing looking tanks out there & its pretty cool to get feedback from folk more experienced & with a better eye.

re: Fish. Haven't really stocked the tank. Right now:
4 congo tetras plus a handful of smaller tetras & some SAEs
I killed all the amano and RCS I put in. Will wait until Fall to re-add.

plan to add more congo tetras, and rummys
debating on how many more congos & what to pair with, rainbows etc.
I really like Kribs (Pelvicachromis pulcher) & dwarf cichlids but am unfamiliar

cheers to all,
growitnow


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

I know what you mean :hihi: Looks like you're doing well. To be honest I think the wood and whatnot looks fine for what you're trying to achieve, all you need to do is tackle the rocks and you'll be all set. 

Patience is a virtue though, so take your time.
-Andrew


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## rountreesj (Jun 12, 2007)

simpler more common rotalas are nearly impossible to kill in your setup. 

I'd suggest:
rotala indica-will be yellow green in hat setup
rotala sp green- bright lime green
rotalla colorata-pinkish to deeeeeep red
rotala rotundifolia-green to pink

all would do just fin in there. if you get any of these plant 2-3 stems at a time.
Don't be afraid to top them off and replant the tops.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I think you have come a ways now. Still, smaller leaves, larger simple groups will do better. Give up and some species, chose species that will have a nice large scale impact on the design.

The 350 you saw is not much simpler and thus more effective.










I have a bonsai like tree in the open space, and this has been removed.
Also had some swords, but they also where removed.

I chose to have some branchy pieces coming out into the open space and no plants there. While I do not have a recent pics, I'll get to it. The tank looks much better but I think I only have 5 species now.
I think my 180 at home would look better with 2-3 species tops.

The nice thing about a nice large monoculture, you can build and expand from there. Then decide along a much better path than reducing the # of species down. 

From simple, (like learning walk before running) to more complicated.
Many/most go from a messy complex mish mash to more simple over time.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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