# Too much water movement/filtration?



## Vino (Jan 19, 2014)

I have had my 29g fresh water tank for about a year and a half now. I started out with (2) AC 50 filters and some various plants. The tank was about 20% planted max at any one time.

Fast forward to today: I now have a Eheim Classic 250, (1) AC 50 filter and a 
Hydor Koralia Nano 240. I have some plants and about a dozen fish, and 5 Amano shrimp.

I am thinking about getting some floating plants and feel that perhaps my water flow is too much, as I feel that the floaters will just get swirled around. 

I also have had an increase in what I believe is black beard algae, which grows on my bacopa, amazon swords and my dwarf sag, but not on the one wisteria that I have left in the tank. 

I have heard that an increase in oxygenated water can contribute to this outbreak. I change 50% of the water once a week and feed once a day (i dont believe I am overdoing it). 

I know some of you will probably pick this post apart with what I have said, but I am interested in any feedback with regards to my tank.

PS- When I had the tank filled with just wistera I never had an algae problem. 


Tank Info:

Light- Planted Plus (on for 5 hours a day).

Filters- (1) AC 50, (1) Eheim Classic 250, and (not a pump) a Hydor nano 240.

Heater- 15w Marineland

Ferts- I dose well below EI for macros and micros, as I dont have a large abundance of plants. Hence the reason I am thinking of floaters and some ludwigia, and chopping the bacopa down to rid it of the algae.


Again, any help would be great.


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

Seems like a lot of flow for a 29 gallon. While some movement is good to swirl around nutrients, you can overdo it. That said, I doubt that has anything to do with your algae problem. I think your excess water movement may have helped disguise the greater algae problem.

For the algae issue...my first guess would be excess nutrients. With no co2, a 5 hour light cycle, and all those fish I doubt you need to dose the water column at all, or at least not nearly as much. Maybe just root tabs for the root feeders you have, if any. 

Floaters are good in any tank if you ask me. They grow fast (access to air-born co2), and therefore suck up excess nutrients well, which starves out the algae.


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## Vino (Jan 19, 2014)

Daximus said:


> Seems like a lot of flow for a 29 gallon. While some movement is good to swirl around nutrients, you can overdo it. That said, I doubt that has anything to do with your algae problem. I think your excess water movement may have helped disguise the greater algae problem.
> 
> For the algae issue...my first guess would be excess nutrients. With no co2, a 5 hour light cycle, and all those fish I doubt you need to dose the water column at all, or at least not nearly as much. Maybe just root tabs for the root feeders you have, if any.
> 
> Floaters are good in any tank if you ask me. They grow fast (access to air-born co2), and therefore suck up excess nutrients well, which starves out the algae.


If I cut out the ferts and reduce the water flow (take out the Hydor), do you think think that would help?

Conversely, if I raise the photo-period and dose Excel, would the excess water flow still be a detriment?

As for the fish: I have 6 neon tetras, 4 black tetras, 1 green tiger barb, 1 Bolivian ram, 2 coreys and 5 amano shrimp. I also have 5 nerite snails and various other small snails. 

Is this bio-load sufficient to support the small amount of plants I do have?


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

It's really hard to judge over the internet. I doubt it is the water flow. 

Others may disagree (I don't does ferts via EI), but I would add more plants, or add less ferts. This is why I use floating plants and plants that partially grow above the water surface...they are algae killer. 

I'm just going off what I imagine is the imbalance. Plants aren't growing fast enough, therefore not using all the fertilization, and something else is...algae.


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## Vino (Jan 19, 2014)

Your advice is much appreciated. I will look into the addition of more plants.

Any suggestions on a floater?


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

Vino said:


> Your advice is much appreciated. I will look into the addition of more plants.
> 
> Any suggestions on a floater?


I use duckweed...simply because it is cheap and readily available. I also think it looks nice and give a more natural look to my tanks. Aside from being a nutrient sponge, you can probably run your lights for longer periods of time once it gets established, as it partially shades the tank. 

I view planted tanks a little differently than most people on here. I'm a big fan of natural solutions. Fish food, and fish waste should handle all of your plants fertilization needs in a moderately planted, non Co2 tank. With the lone exception of a few trace elements. Co2 should be the limiting factor to your plant growth. 

I'm not sure when it became all the rage to dose fertilization in non co2 tanks...I just don't get it. Sure, if you didn't have any (or very few) fish in the tank, then it might be necessary, but for the majority of us with a decent amount of fish I don't feel it's needed. You fish and their food *is* fertilization. Now, once Co2 is added, things change, as your plants will now outgrow their natural fertilization...then I'm all for dosing as needed.


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## Vino (Jan 19, 2014)

Daximus said:


> I use duckweed...simply because it is cheap and readily available. I also think it looks nice and give a more natural look to my tanks. Aside from being a nutrient sponge, you can probably run your lights for longer periods of time once it gets established, as it partially shades the tank.
> 
> I view planted tanks a little differently than most people on here. I'm a big fan of natural solutions. Fish food, and fish waste should handle all of your plants fertilization needs in a moderately planted, non Co2 tank. With the lone exception of a few trace elements. Co2 should be the limiting factor to your plant growth.
> 
> I'm not sure when it became all the rage to dose fertilization in non co2 tanks...I just don't get it. Sure, if you didn't have any (or very few) fish in the tank, then it might be necessary, but for the majority of us with a decent amount of fish I don't feel it's needed. You fish and their food *is* fertilization. Now, once Co2 is added, things change, as your plants will now outgrow their natural fertilization...then I'm all for dosing as needed.


I like the way you think. 

I like the low tech idea, as I am lazy. This foray into fert territory seems to have bitten me in the ass.


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

Vino said:


> I like the way you think.
> 
> I like the low tech idea, as I am lazy. This foray into fert territory seems to have bitten me in the ass.


I've always been a fan of dirt tanks, but just finally got around to doing a true Walstad style setup...and I'm never going back to regular fish keeping. 

Dirt capped with gravel. Plant heavy, stock light. Overfeed the fish (within reason). Rarely clean it. Change 50% of the water 4 or 5 times a year. Best aquarium ever. 

You got Kindle? Download Diana Walstad's _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ $12.00 that will change the way you keep aquariums forever. For instance...



> Soil and fishfood… Most ordinary soils contain a huge reservoir of iron and other trace elements. Also, once a soil is submerged in the tank, the anaerobic conditions insure that trace elements are readily available to plants. Fishfood is the perfect fertilizer. Not only does it contain all the nutrients that plants require, including carbon and trace elements, but it is relatively safe. Because nutrients are released slowly in small increments by the metabolism of fish and bacteria, it’s probably better for the plants than adding big doses of inorganic fertilizers. And it’s cheap. In my opinion, if an aquarium contains at least 2 mg/ l (ppm) of nitrates and a layer of soil, there should be enough nutrients for the plants. The hobbyist must use some judgement about how much tank cleaning is necessary. But certainly, there is little to be gained from restricting the nutrient levels in the aquarium by underfeeding fish, changing water frequently, and cleaning gravel, but then adding it all back as plant fertilizers. (Sounds like a lot of work to me.)
> 
> Walstad, Diana Louise (2013-05-15). Ecology of the Planted Aquarium: A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise (Kindle Locations 2569-2572). Echinodorus Pub. Kindle Edition.


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## Vino (Jan 19, 2014)

Daximus said:


> I've always been a fan of dirt tanks, but just finally got around to doing a true Walstad style setup...and I'm never going back to regular fish keeping.
> 
> Dirt capped with gravel. Plant heavy, stock light. Overfeed the fish (within reason). Rarely clean it. Change 50% of the water 4 or 5 times a year. Best aquarium ever.
> 
> You got Kindle? Download Diana Walstad's _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ $12.00 that will change the way you keep aquariums forever. For instance...


I've heard of the method, but have never explored the specifics. I just may have to read that book, and experiment on a spare 5 gallon I have.


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## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*Tank Filtration*

Hello Vino...

Over filtering your tank isn't wrong, but it's unnecessary. The filtration equipment doesn't really do a good job of keeping the tank water clean. It just takes in toxic water and returns the water a little less toxic.

The basic water change is the real filter. It removes the toxins. If you're a good water changer, then one filter with a gallon per hour (gph) rating of 4 times the volume of the tank is plenty to run the tank.

Save your money on a lot of filters and just change out the tank water more frequently.

B


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## nugzboltz (May 20, 2008)

Daximus said:


> I've always been a fan of dirt tanks, but just finally got around to doing a true Walstad style setup...and I'm never going back to regular fish keeping.
> 
> Dirt capped with gravel. Plant heavy, stock light. Overfeed the fish (within reason). Rarely clean it. Change 50% of the water 4 or 5 times a year. Best aquarium ever.
> 
> You got Kindle? Download Diana Walstad's _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ $12.00 that will change the way you keep aquariums forever. For instance...


Don't want to derail the thread too badly, but with doing water changes that infrequently, wouldn't you be dealing with a buildup of TDS and whatever minerals that your plants don't remove? Do you use tap water?


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

Vino, one thing I can point out is to not confuse having too much water movement with too much filtration. I and many others agree that you can never have too much filtration. Water movement is a total different beast and its needs will vary from tank to tank. This is were you have to find that happy medium. I too run a 29g with a 240 powerhead at the surface. I do have bba but within reason I like it for its natural until it over takes a leaf and has to be discharged. I don't dose anything for I have a moderate bioload. I just recently started dosing excel to control it but I am better off just putting my pressurized co2 system back in action. 

I am sure once the source is found, the issue can be minimized. For me, I just put the effort into it for is natural and not a show tank by any means. It's hard work to keep a tank completely algae free though.


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## Vino (Jan 19, 2014)

flight50 said:


> Vino, one thing I can point out is to not confuse having too much water movement with too much filtration. I and many others agree that you can never have too much filtration. Water movement is a total different beast and its needs will vary from tank to tank. This is were you have to find that happy medium. I too run a 29g with a 240 powerhead at the surface. I do have bba but within reason I like it for its natural until it over takes a leaf and has to be discharged. I don't dose anything for I have a moderate bioload. I just recently started dosing excel to control it but I am better off just putting my pressurized co2 system back in action.
> 
> I am sure once the source is found, the issue can be minimized. For me, I just put the effort into it for is natural and not a show tank by any means. It's hard work to keep a tank completely algae free though.


You are right, as I DID mean water movement and NOT filtration. I figured that the excess movement would initially help with moving debris (i.e-poop, plant material, etc) towards the filter intakes. 

I am ok with algae in my tank, I just dont like it starting to cover leaves, even a little bit. I ahd to remove my bacopa as it was entirely covering the stems and leaves, save for the very top leaves that looked brand new.

I think Im starting to realize that if I, perhaps, increase my excel dosing, then my plants will absorb more of the excess nutrients, thus eliminating food for the algae. Stronger plant=Less algae?


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

Vino said:


> You are right, as I DID mean water movement and NOT filtration. I figured that the excess movement would initially help with moving debris (i.e-poop, plant material, etc) towards the filter intakes.
> 
> I am ok with algae in my tank, I just dont like it starting to cover leaves, even a little bit. I ahd to remove my bacopa as it was entirely covering the stems and leaves, save for the very top leaves that looked brand new.
> 
> I think Im starting to realize that if I, perhaps, increase my excel dosing, then my plants will absorb more of the excess nutrients, thus eliminating food for the algae. Stronger plant=Less algae?


In theory yes, strong/healthier plants will out complete algae for nutrients. Plants use co2 and light to drive them. The higher the level of each determines the level of tank you have. High levels of both = a high tech tank and so forth. Having balance between co2, lighting and nutrients is what can make or break a setup. So adding excel doesn't necessarily mean that your plant will absorb more nutrients, excel just provides that extra carbon the plant was missing to make food for itself.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

Kinda in the same boat as well... I have a 75g setup with a 100 gallon HOB filter on it. Would it be way too much flow if I added another 100 gallon HOB filter on it? Or should I just add a power head?

That also seems like a lottt of flow for a 29 gallon tank!


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

There is a difference with the flow from a powerhead vs a hob filter. Powerheads have a broader and more subtle wave like motion for movement. Powerheads are perfect for circulation purposely which would benefit the tank more than just having water movement from filters. So my vote would be with the powerhead. Its turn over rate is calculated differently than whats needed for filtration in a planted tank. When dosing a tank, a powerhead really does the job nicely.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

Actually I was gonna use an Aqueon Circulation pump. It's a little bit different than a powerhead I believe.


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## Vino (Jan 19, 2014)

flight50 said:


> In theory yes, strong/healthier plants will out complete algae for nutrients. Plants use co2 and light to drive them. The higher the level of each determines the level of tank you have. High levels of both = a high tech tank and so forth. Having balance between co2, lighting and nutrients is what can make or break a setup. So adding excel doesn't necessarily mean that your plant will absorb more nutrients, excel just provides that extra carbon the plant was missing to make food for itself.


Im aware of this. As I already have enough light (Finnex Planted +), and the nutrients (about 1/2 of the recommended medium light EI dosing), and now the excel increase to move things along, as I feel perhaps my algae may be from too much light and nutrients.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

flight50 said:


> There is a difference with the flow from a powerhead vs a hob filter. Powerheads have a broader and more subtle wave like motion for movement. Powerheads are perfect for circulation purposely which would benefit the tank more than just having water movement from filters. So my vote would be with the powerhead. Its turn over rate is calculated differently than whats needed for filtration in a planted tank. When dosing a tank, a powerhead really does the job nicely.





Blackheart said:


> Actually I was gonna use an Aqueon Circulation pump. It's a little bit different than a powerhead I believe.


I actually just decided to go with the Aqueon Circulation Pump. I bought the smallest rated one, though, which is rated up to 40 gallons, so that way everything is not blowing all over the tank but it'll still help with water circulation in the part of the tank the filter isn't at.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

flight50 said:


> I do have bba but within reason I like it for its natural until it over takes a leaf and has to be discharged. I don't dose anything for I have a moderate bioload. I just recently started dosing excel to control it but I am better off just putting my pressurized co2 system back in action.
> 
> I am sure once the source is found, the issue can be minimized. For me, I just put the effort into it for is natural and not a show tank by any means. It's hard work to keep a tank completely algae free though.



BBA is a very common i tanks with low CO2. i have found that tanks with lots of flow (filtration or ciculation) tend to have bba problems. i can attest to it as my Hillstream tank has been a constant battle with BBA.

i tried to ignore it and it started to take over the tank, i tried to battle it and lost. the easiest answer i have found is Horned Nerite snails. they love BBA. they cleaned my buces covered in BBA, they cleaned off all my equipment of bba, and are working on my anubias. i bought three for my 40b and that is plenty. 


personally i believe algae is part of a healthy aquarium. algae occurs in the wild and should occur in our tanks.


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## Vino (Jan 19, 2014)

Aquatic Delight said:


> BBA is a very common i tanks with low CO2. i have found that tanks with lots of flow (filtration or ciculation) tend to have bba problems. i can attest to it as my Hillstream tank has been a constant battle with BBA.
> 
> i tried to ignore it and it started to take over the tank, i tried to battle it and lost. the easiest answer i have found is Horned Nerite snails. they love BBA. they cleaned my buces covered in BBA, they cleaned off all my equipment of bba, and are working on my anubias. i bought three for my 40b and that is plenty.
> 
> ...


I agree with the sentiment that algae is part of a healthy aquarium and occurs in the wild, but this growth on my bacopa was just plain ol' unsightly.

I have recently upped my excel to 3ml a day. This has helped greatly. 

I also have decided to not dose macros anymore, as I am sure there is enough from the bio-load (if I see a deficiency in any leaves I will start out at a 1/2 of my previous dosing). 

In addition to that, I have purchased some Osmocote plus root tabs and have added them to the tank ( I now only have Amazon Swords, Dwarf Sag, various mosses, and some wisteria (not worried about the wisteria). I still have the roots of my bacopa in the tank and hope this will make a comeback..

Where does one find "horned" Nerites? I are they any different than the regular ones? As I have about 5 in the tank in question.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

Snails are a good option put I find that in my tanks they don't last. My tanks are usually acidic and low on calcium so it eats away at their shells. My ph can be anywhere from 6.6-7.0 since I just 80/20 mix of R/O and tap. Perhaps I will target 6.9-7.1 and do a 60/40 or a 50/50 once I get setup underway. I'd like to keep a few snails that are not heavily on the breeding side. RCS shrimp are also desired. I believe they eat all forms of algae as well.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

http://www.planetinverts.com/horned_nerite_snail.html

horned nerites are very different. where the spiral on the shell is they have little horns that stick out, they aren't to us nor do they pose a threat to us. they are smaller most other nerites and only come in the gold color some times they can have a brownor black swirl to them. and also the eat tons of BBA


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## candymancan (Nov 1, 2014)

The problem with filters is.. if you don't clean the media it can actually be a big source of nitrates.. And I personally think 3 filters on a 29g is too much filtration, some people in planted tanks don't even use filters.. They aren't really needed ... All of my tanks have 1 Filter... MY 55G has a Penguin 350 biowheel and I love this filter.. but the water flow is a bit much on that side of the tank and i wish i could turn it down.. I also have a 30g which uses an older (22 year old) duel filter much like the Penguin style and I think it flows way too much too so I turn the nozzle to the back which cuts the flow in half.

My 27G Hexagon has a 14 year old whisper single HOB filter and its perfect.. Catches enough food to where I have to clean it every 3 days (I feed my fish a lot) and it doesn't blow my plants around. However ALL HOB filters to me are noisy.. even the quietest ones you can buy are too noisy.. So Im begging to replace all my tanks (8) with internal filters.. My 2.6g top fin tanks came with top fin internal 10's and these things... are so quiet you cant hear them until you put your ear against the glass.. So I replaced my 10g bowfronts filter with the 20g version... dead quiet and I love the adjustable flow... I replaced my 27g hexagons HOB with the top fin internal40g Its dead quiet... This tank is in my bedroom I couldn't believe how good I slept the other day replacing the HOB... My friends couldn't even hear the thing had to put their ear against the glass..

My 44g Pentagon is in my bedroom too and it has the 40g internal as well.. My 10g bowfront is in the room too.. Yes I have 3 fish tanks in my room.. But you cannot hear them.. But these filters the 40g versions have a much much bigger and more slits in it to capture debris in the water then any HOB has.. So they clean the water better.. and they also act as power heads if you want them too and have adjustable flow.. or you can use them as spray bars thus lowering the flow even more if you want..

I personally say screw HOB's yes I agree older internal filters suck.. but these new top fin ones are great.. 

Anyway im rambling.. For a 29G tank, I think you have way too many filters. and i don't know what your tank looks like with 3 filters running but i imagine your flow in the tank is a bit crazy I personally would cut back 2 filters to 1 and get yourself a quiet very low flow Power head on the opposite side of the tank. IMO less flow is better for planted tanks.. This is my hexagon.. with the old HOB and the old HOB had like maybe 100-150g per hour flow.. Which isn't a lot


As for hair Algae or BBA, my 55g has Black bushy algae growing on the plants pretty sure its BBA looks like this... my 30g has this bushy algae too.. Grows on my plants leaves i dunno how to get rid of it.. its annoying. I found overdosing excel kills black HAIR algae.. but not black beard algae










My 27g hexagon doesn't have it and never did.. But ALL 3 tanks do have green spot algae that grows on my plants leaves and the glass.. I have no idea why this algae is forming or how to get rid of it.. nerite snails don't eat it, nore do oto's its very hard to scrub off glass too.


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## Mariostg (Sep 6, 2014)

Daximus said:


> You got Kindle? Download Diana Walstad's _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ $12.00 that will change the way you keep aquariums forever. For instance...


Or an Android device or just a laptop. There are apps and cloud applications to read those books.
But nothing beats the hard copy.

I wish there were more books in the Walstad style.

I have 4 tanks, my 75 gal was setup in late June, as of Nov 1st, no water change has been made.
--I top up as evaporation goes.
--I trim plants as they grow. This is how I remove biomass.
--I don't overfilter. Eheim 2215 in a 75 gals with mech media only.

This was my first dirt tanks, and I am impressed by how it goes.
The angels, otos, cories, shrimps and snails are all happy.


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