# 120 Gallon Dutch color contrast version 3.0



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

This is the 3rd aquascape I've done with this tank.


This is the 3 rd water change to reduce the mud dust that is ADA Aqua soil.




The wood I chose was more stumpy like.



the idea is to use the sloping areas between the roots to plant, similar to the older version of the tank I'd recently done. Red/green/red/green contrast etc. 
I want to stick with the vivid color scheme and change out a few species, keep a few goodies but oldies.

I want to move towards less uprooting and shorter more prostrate plants.
the wood also slows the flow down a bit more and gives me a better flow pattern. 

So later that day: 




I decided to change a few things and I'm not done yet:


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## scotty b (Oct 23, 2012)

wow love the scape , perfect driftwood


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## nofearengineer (Mar 20, 2013)

Looks like another masterpiece in the works.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Day one, already looks great! Tom, what type of wood is that?


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## Harrisgo (Mar 18, 2013)

Man those stumps are nice!


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## manzpants92 (Dec 6, 2012)

Looks great!


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## jimko (Aug 17, 2007)

OCD...

Looks awesome!!! Looked awesome the last couple of times. You need to publish you masterpieces in a book.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

xmas_one said:


> Day one, already looks great! Tom, what type of wood is that?


Manzy, but I got it from serpentine soil at lower elevation. 
The UG has grown in at a rapid pace. I suspect i's the new ADA AS leach NH4.
Faster than the past times I replanted it. Maybe 2-3x as fast.

I'm down to 2x a week water changes now. Fish are doing well.


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

Lovely as always Tom.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I switched the Red Ludwigia and the H araguaia around, the Hygro will purple up nicer as it roots and gets growing nicely.
I also switched the UG and the Elatine hydropiper. The EH is growing well, I had a chance to uproot and look at the section when I moved it. Same is true for the UG, both have done very well this last few weeks.
Also had a chance to go through both and make sure I got all the bladderwort. Stuff comes in on some plants and then it's a PITA to get rid of it.

I have a green and a green in the front, but..the Blood vomit is both red and green. I'm leaving it for now, I'll see if I might add another row if/when I change my mind once again.
I'm okay with most of the other placements, but I can rearrange any of the ideas I have right now fairly easily for those. 

The main issue is the Blood vomit, Hygro arag sections, they are very mellow. They keep the eye away from the middle front lower sections and around the outside perimeter.
Once both groups grow out some, Blood vomits are really smaller than I thought, I'll evaluate. I'm pondering a dwarf indian red sword at the top of the blood vomit row, but.........it'll get too big.
I can put the Hygro in the back left corner like before, it'll look as good if not better than the Metallic affinis Crypt. But I'll need to find a decent replacement. Not much out there that fits the bill in my taste for color and leaf shape.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

E. hydropiper is growing in after much replanting, the top sloped part is still getting uprooted by the elephant noses and shrimp. The soil is new and is lighter up in that section.






Blood vomits are doing well, and time to split a few already.


I need to find a better home of the S. uraupes and lago grade. 
I'll likely switch the UG with them and then move them back somewheres.

A few other minor changes I suppose.

E hydropiper is a PITA to get a larger decent rug if you have fish.
I have ample Belem grass and Monte carlo as well as HC if need be.
It grows, but fish go after it. It roots deeper than HC etc also, so it's weird to me. 

Speaking of which, I now have 100 Rasbora kubotai green neon.
Very nice fish, does not leap to it's death, but does not contrast well in this tank, so it might end up over in the 70 Gallon Buce tank. Nice fish though. 

I drilled some more holes in the wood and will add some more Mini pellia in those spots.
The tops of the wood are coming along well with this liverwort.


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## gerbillo (Dec 5, 2013)

Wow, the color arrangement is amazing!


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## kwheeler91 (May 26, 2009)

I like this version a lot more than the last. Very well done!


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

So you trim the bottom of all the plants and plant them back? Thats such a pain, how long does it take you?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

samee said:


> So you trim the bottom of all the plants and plant them back? Thats such a pain, how long does it take you?


Dutch style has long done this.

Some groups I do that, most I do not or they do not need/require that.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Dutch style has long done this.
> 
> Some groups I do that, most I do not or they do not need/require that.


Ok. Thats what I do for my 45 gal, such a pain. Your plant leaves all the way to the bottom are so healthy, so I thought to ask. Also Im sure the angle at with the light is coming hits the bottom plants as well.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Tom,

I'm seeing two different colors of substrate granules. Are the lighter ones the older stuff or is it all new and it just came in like that?


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## jfynyson (Apr 15, 2013)

How about a trimming / pruning session video for the various plant types you have ? I'd love to add something like that to this Dutch How-To thread I started...I know lots of folks really question these techniques & I believe it can make / break an aquatic garden.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=436617


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## johnpfaff (Oct 18, 2013)

*Stumps for sale?*

Have an empty 95gal rimless, needs hardscape - how would I purchase stumps like those?

Thanks,

John.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Phil Edwards said:


> Tom,
> 
> I'm seeing two different colors of substrate granules. Are the lighter ones the older stuff or is it all new and it just came in like that?


Yep.

Different batch I suspect.

Generally they will make say 2-3 tons, then sell that. then place another order etc. There will be slight color differences.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

samee said:


> Ok. Thats what I do for my 45 gal, such a pain. Your plant leaves all the way to the bottom are so healthy, so I thought to ask. Also Im sure the angle at with the light is coming hits the bottom plants as well.


It's a PITA for me as well, but I rather enjoy it sometimes. 
So I chose a mix of plants, some that get the hedge style trim, others that require the uproot and replant the top's method(but I limit this to only plants I really like etc).


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jfynyson said:


> How about a trimming / pruning session video for the various plant types you have ? I'd love to add something like that to this Dutch How-To thread I started...I know lots of folks really question these techniques & I believe it can make / break an aquatic garden.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=436617


Come on over and shoot the video. :tongue:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

johnpfaff said:


> Have an empty 95gal rimless, needs hardscape - how would I purchase stumps like those?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John.


You can use a variety of materials, rocks can even work well.
I sell driftwood, quite a lot. You can see it on my web site.


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## anastasisariel (Oct 4, 2009)

Very beautiful and I can see how the tank would be impressive by the hardscape alone. I might have to do something similiar in a med light version as I happnt to have a couple nice stumps! Right now I have higher light to grow my plants.


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## jfynyson (Apr 15, 2013)

plantbrain said:


> Come on over and shoot the video. :tongue:


Next time I'm in CA maybe :icon_roll...I saw your nice cardinals video so I figured your could throw that thing on a tripod and share some of that trimming knowledge/techniques...I know time is everything though....thanks anyway:thumbsup:


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## Plantnerd (Dec 14, 2011)

Looks amazing Tom. 

Looking forward to see those blood vomit fill in. 

What happend to the other erios? They where the most visually striking plants in the old scape imho. 

How about putting some of those Bucephalandras in your other tank to good use and give them spot in this one:smile:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Plantnerd said:


> Looks amazing Tom.
> 
> Looking forward to see those blood vomit fill in.
> 
> ...


The other erios tend to flower after 1 year or so, they get huge and nice, but..........flowering kills them and the look it seems. They are a nice darker green than many other erios also.

Buce's have their own tank, so that's not a good idea to change for this tank. 
I have mini pellia and darker mossy colors already. I tried it last year, did not like it, same with the White Anubias(they looked better than the Buce's). They just do much better in the other tank over time.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Added the nice Erio compressum I got from Aaron.
This was troubling because they are not easy to scape with.

I found a good location and had to redo a little bit of the design, but it's a nice fit and a nice dramatic plant.

Not easy to plant, extremely buoyant. 

I got mad at the Elatine hydropiper. Removed it and put a smaller patch on the far left corner instead. As I removed it, I noticed it had really grown in very well. 
Still, it did not grow at the same rate the other plants around it were.
I think very very high light and finer sediment would help. Smaller shallower tanks.

I added the UG back into that location. 
It's easy.

Added the S uruapes to the side section and the L senegalnesis also. Removed the Rotala green. Nice easy plant, but I wanted to keep certain species. Drilled holes into the wood in various spots to stuff more Mini pellia into.

Will get pics up later tonight.

And what the tank looks like after uprooting EH


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

This is what the tank looked like after uprooting the EH, Cuphea and UG




Nice eh?

So when I folks whine about why the water is a little hazy, well, frankly they HAVE NO IDEA.

A day later it looks like this:

















The Erio compressum is a good fit in this location.


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

cant express how much I love this tank right now...great job!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

EH is growing back into the new section, I removed the L. senegalensis and put it where the Rotala sunset was. The sunset did not like being shaded and the L senegalensis is much tougher and offers a better contrast anyway.

Oh well.
Erio setaceum is not doing as well as I'd hopped, but it does require patience, so we will see. Not so sure it's an ideal location either for it.
I have the Limnophila "gigantea" I managed to bring back from the non CO2 quarantine tank. I may put it in that location, it'll look nice. S. madiera might also be suitable there.Syngonanthus "Uaupes" can stay on the other Left side. This way they will not look so similar together. 


I mostly have only 3-4 spots to work on and find a good balance between rare plants, easier to care for and trim, and good texture and color schemes. That's a lot to balance each attribute. Not an easy process. I had a couple of folks stop by, Ebi from Utah and another local who had not seen my tanks before.


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## Ebi (Jun 29, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> I had a couple of folks stop by, Ebi from Utah and another local who had not seen my tanks before.



Thanks for the opportunity Tom! 
Pictures truly do no justice to how striking the colors look in person! 


I must highly suggest, if anyone gets the opportunity to visit Tom's place, leave the girlfriend at home ;p 
Hehehe


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Ebi said:


> Thanks for the opportunity Tom!
> Pictures truly do no justice to how striking the colors look in person!
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sure you got thrashed afterwards. :redface:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Ludwigia sphaerocarpa is looking good right now. Not sure why really, it's weird sometimes post trims and gets a little wrinkly, but I've hacked it and few times now and it's just fine and the color is still becoming richer. 
I want to move the Trithuria sp, blood vomits. I think they will look best in a row. But where to put that row?
I'd likely put something like Belem hair grass or maybe the Monte carlo again.
Added the Fissidens moss to the branches that make a border around that section.


The Erio compressum's have done well thus far.
No floating. I split them into a couple more plants once I got them from Aaron, but I counts another 3 on one group and another 3 on another ans at least 2 on the 3rd plant. 
So they are growing and doing well in this tank. They are so nice, it would suck if they did not

So the 3 problems sections for now: 

1. The Rear Left side(see below)
2. The Blood vomits(sounds like my friend's old punk rock band, the blood farmers) 
3. The rear right side. 

I'm okay with these issues for now and have a couple of options.
But I want to maximize the return for ease of care, stability of growth patterns, able to sell the plants for a decent return and most importantly,a nice look and eclectic species. 
Weighing all these demands is never an easy choice, you can quickly chose a few, but as you get towards the end of the location spots in the tank, and the picky behavior due to placement location in the tank to different plant preferences, well..........








I have some issues here, I'd like to move the Syngonanthus urapues over to the left, but it's too dark for it under the branch. I could try and pack more soil back in there and that would raise the level up more, but that will be tough over time.
I could call the Fissidens branch a green row and then move the Cuphea back one spot and add Rotala sunset in the more forward section where the Cuphea is now. Both the Syngonanthus and the Rotala need open areas and good current and CO2 to do well.


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## bwagner (Apr 18, 2007)

Nice looking setup...as usual. 

What type of lighting do you use and how long do you leave it on for?

Also, what is your dosing regiment?

Or is that all secret squirrel stuff?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bwagner said:


> Nice looking setup...as usual.
> 
> What type of lighting do you use and how long do you leave it on for?
> 
> ...


I hate them varmits. 

Light is an ATI dimmercomputer 8x54 w T5.
I run the light at 0 up to 100% over 1 hour, then 100% for 6 hours, then 100% to 0% over the last hour, CO2 shuts off about 15 minute before the lights go off completely, CO2 starts when the light starts.

Dosing is a simple thing; 2-3 x a week, 1.5 tsp KNO3, 1-2 Tablespoons of GH booster, 3/4 tsp of KH2PO4. Traces, most days, but I skip a few.
Nothing cool or special, as nutrients are not a critical factor, something I've long said for coming up on 2 decade. As usual:redface:

Good CO2, good care, good algae crew, good light, good water changes, basic stuff really.


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## HunterX (May 19, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> I hate them varmits.
> 
> Light is an ATI dimmercomputer 8x54 w T5.
> I run the light at 0 up to 100% over 1 hour, then 100% for 6 hours, then 100% to 0% over the last hour, CO2 shuts off about 15 minute before the lights go off completely, CO2 starts when the light starts.
> ...


Tom,

Looks amazing as usual! What substrate are you using and do you add anything to the substrate?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HunterX said:


> Tom,
> 
> Looks amazing as usual! What substrate are you using and do you add anything to the substrate?


ADA aqua soil amazonia, normal type.

Nothing else.

Never found much use with a hodge podge of mixes and layers except an ugly tacky looking sediment that did no better than the single type. ADA AS is basically rice paddy clay loam, and it makes less mess than rice paddy soil since they slightly backed and rolled it. Wetland soil, that's where wetland plants grow, so seems obvious to use it as long as it looks good and does not make too much of a mess.


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## The Trigger (May 9, 2012)

Tom, how do you avoid an ammonia spike after ripping all those plants out? I find every time I rip out a patch of plants that large, I always get at least a small spike overnight, even with a hefty water change after the uprooting.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The Trigger said:


> Tom, how do you avoid an ammonia spike after ripping all those plants out? I find every time I rip out a patch of plants that large, I always get at least a small spike overnight, even with a hefty water change after the uprooting.


Good question.

I do my trimming 1st, right before the lights come on, I trim to minimize the muck and dust, some plants, I'll top and mow like a hedge(Ludwigia "red"), or another I'll pick off old ugly leaves(A reineckii mini), or the P stellata I removed, I just cut all the way to the bottom stump, left it in there, it might respout later, or it might die off. 

Plants like the Mini Myrio, the R wallichii, these always look and recover better if I pull them up gently, then replant the tops, discard the bottom. 

L. senegalensis, I top like a hedge and then replant the tops to fatten up the group, or sell the tops, same with the R. mini butterfly. Downoi, I always uproot and replant, foreground plants I'll often cut the front sod back and if it gets too ratty, I'll hank the rug up then replant it.
Cuphea, much like the L senegalensis. 

You sort of know the plants and what works best after a while.
Still, for any given hobbyists and approach, topping might work well for one person, not so well in another tank.

So after I do that, often turn the light son and then turn the filter off while I trim, I'll net the leaves off the surface, then do a 60-70% water change, my sump still has a fair amount of old water in it. Clean my prefilters and mesh for the overflow, net out any shrimp that went into the prefilter area, toss the nicer ones back into the tank, cull the rest. 

Refill, add all the ferts, done.

The pics in the next post are exactly what was done and the 7 hours afterwards, it was a pretty good sized hacking.

I'm not measuring NH4 however. The tank is really thriving well. 
I did have a touch of BBA after adding some livestock maybe 6-7 weeks ago. RCS population exploded about then also, likely by eating a dead fish or two. 
I had the gas tank run out for a day or 2, so.......then I changed the current to reduce the off gassing after I fixed that, the BBA kept coming, not on plants, but little tufts on the wood, I picked most of it off I could get at easily. About 3 weeks of good consistent care, it's dying off. 

Certainly not a big issue, but one I went after quick. Picking it off, CO2, CO2 and CO2(degassing/current are all linked here) and then just good general care, staying on top of things took care of the rest. People neglect stuff, or overlook something. You fix it and move on. I'd say the CO2 is dialed in better in this tank than the last version I did. Better current, mixing etc.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Tank continues to thrive. I hacked a lot of the groups back yesterday. Mowed others back down. I removed the P stellata narrow in the right corner and then expanded the Erio type 3 out since it is doing well in that position.
The section is still weak for now, but in 2-3 months, it'll be real nice. The Syngonanthus canuck and the maderia are doing very well, one is albino white and is still growing well, might be a mutation, but more likely just got a chlorine or the water was too hot during a water change since the in/out was on top of the plant, only 3 or the 15-20 stems were effected though and the others corrected themselves. I'll find out in a month or two, but doubtful it's a real mutation, but you never know. Elatine hydropiper is doing well, thickening up and piling on itself. I added some more along the side of the tank to see how it'll fair. Some of the older Erio compressum leaves are getting a bit of green spot algae. I'll need to trim those off sometime, plenty of nice new growth that's well out pacing any algae. I must have 12 side shoots at least now. Also got a touch of BBA for about 2 weeks, but, the gas was out for a couple of days, just kept up on everything and it's stopped about 2 weeks ago. Not on the plants, but the wood had tiny bits forming. Why? Not sure, maybe from adding the fish, maybe the CO2, maybe slacking on water changes, hard to say. Certainly manageable, but I know it need not be there at all. All new growth of BBA stopped about 2-3 weeks ago and it's slowly going away. I changed the current which increased the CO2, reduced the degassing Fish seemed a bit more sluggish, but still fine. So that might be it also, or a combo of the CO2/current ripple adjustment, more water changes, staying on the CO2 tank switch if it runs out, adding new livestock etc. 
Also, there's been a huge rise in RCS population the last 2 months, they are everywhere like flies. 





Filter side view




A reineckii mini. I have pruned off any raggy looking leaves, and the nice new side shoots, fill in nicely. This is the best way to prune this plant it seems. You can uproot and then replant the side shoots, but there's a little bit of delay as the plant establishes the root system, but that method is good if you need more or a larger area for planting. I just top of the taller stems from here and remove some older side leaves now.

Blood vomit, sort of like Belem hair grass almost if you allow it to fill in and grow thick. I'd hoped for something different look wise, but they sell well, I've had trouble finding an optimal location in this design for them also, they really need a long row, not what I have now.




UG continues to do even better in this version of the 120 Gallon redone. If I were to focus more on nature style, I'd use this plant mostly along with Mini pellia/Ricciacardia, mini Myrio, maybe the Rotala mini butterfly.


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## Mizuhuman (Mar 16, 2013)

Wow! breath-taking as always

Are those T5s that you're using? I'm still a noob when it comes to lights


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

That mini pellia on that stump looks sweet. I wish mine would have taken off. I don't know what I did wrong last time I tried it but it didn't do well. Maybe I shouldn't have tied it down and just tried sticking it in some cracks and grooves of the wood. I will try it again and see if it makes a difference or not. Also I have a question for you about H. Araguaia, I planted some when I started my tank back in August and it kind of just sat there. It looks healthy and was growing just at a super slow rate, and within the last week it started growing new growth faster than it has it the last 4 months. Does this plant take a long time to get established or does it maybe need to be moved to a different spot with more light.


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## miuYH (Sep 24, 2013)

Hi Tom,

Fantastic looking tank.

I have a question for you, does your UG put out a deep root system into your substrate? Or is the root system pretty thin?

Thanks!


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## BraveBuc (Nov 8, 2012)

Tom,

I'm wondering about sealing the wet/dry vs surface agitation. Why seal the wet/dry and then use surface agitation for O2? Is that preferable because surface agitation is more controllable?

Edit: I went ahead and just tried it myself and answered my own question. Just going by my fish behavior, it does not seem like much oxygen is lost by sealing the wet/dry if any. I then started reading more (I did all of this backwards didn't I?). It seems Tom and some others have found that with a sealed wet/dry and the right overflow design, you don't noticeably degas more co2 than a canister filter despite having higher oxygen levels. So then why not have surface agitation too?

I may have gotten a little off topic here. I was responding to the adjustment of surface agitation in fighting the BBA.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ua hua said:


> That mini pellia on that stump looks sweet. I wish mine would have taken off. I don't know what I did wrong last time I tried it but it didn't do well. Maybe I shouldn't have tied it down and just tried sticking it in some cracks and grooves of the wood. I will try it again and see if it makes a difference or not. Also I have a question for you about H. Araguaia, I planted some when I started my tank back in August and it kind of just sat there. It looks healthy and was growing just at a super slow rate, and within the last week it started growing new growth faster than it has it the last 4 months. Does this plant take a long time to get established or does it maybe need to be moved to a different spot with more light.


Sort of like a Crypt, might be some symbiosis fungi or bacterial, they take a bit to get growing, then they are very tough.

I had so so luck with Riccardia tying to wood with cotton string, this method seems to work much better. I'm surprised it does so well under such high light.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

miuYH said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Fantastic looking tank.
> 
> ...


Not really, it does once it really gets growing, but it'll lift off after a few weeks, months. You can add more soil on top to weigh it back down, but that only works for so long.


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> Not really, it does once it really gets growing, but it'll lift off after a few weeks, months. You can add more soil on top to weigh it back down, but that only works for so long.


On the subject of UG, did you just hack it back hard ever few weeks then and let it grow back or something? I'm going to be trying to carpet some in a high tech 10.


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## II Knucklez II (Oct 31, 2011)

awesome tank!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I remove the UG Rug and then replant very tightly and densely, takes about 10-15 minutes, maybe 30 or so. But I sell 50-100$ worth in the process. Then a hack or two in between. So maybe 100-200$ per cycle.

Well worth the effort/labor.

But you have to be able to grow and garden with it, otherwise it's not such a good investment.

Most get covered with hair algae or BBA.
Poor CO2 mostly is the root cause. 
Some folks use scissors and trim it. I do not.
Easier to uproot and replant.
I use 1" plugs basically and pack it as close as I can get. 

I have a little bit of the U. gibba(I hate this weed) mixed in which I try to pick out, but, when you pull the entire rug, you can make a real dent in that, but I still missed a few threads, and it's literally like finding a thread in a haystack.
How to you tell the difference between a bladderwort and another baldderwort?

Pretty tough to eradicate.

Came in from a plant I got at AFA. I hate U gibba, Riccia and Duckweeds the worst, algae are easy. So does aFA, they hate the weedy species. Snails are close second.

I'm trying a few methods with the snails, but might need to go with the Botia striata. Problem is, the Botia cannot enter the filters and tubing. So you have to totally clean those and remove eggs etc.

Pest are a real issue.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

I hate u gibba. I had it for about 9 months. I used to remove as much as I could but there was always a strand that used to get away. Around 9 months in, it just died out. Guess no micro organisms? 

The worst thing for me is java moss. Its been growing in my dgh carpet and its really hard to get rid off. I have to uproot the dgh and take out the java thats attached to all the gravel. Even then, its everywhere.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

samee said:


> I hate u gibba. I had it for about 9 months. I used to remove as much as I could but there was always a strand that used to get away. Around 9 months in, it just died out. Guess no micro organisms?
> 
> The worst thing for me is java moss. Its been growing in my dgh carpet and its really hard to get rid off. I have to uproot the dgh and take out the java thats attached to all the gravel. Even then, its everywhere.


Java and Xmas are very hard to get rid of as well, Fissidens is not too bad, Pellia also is a tougher weed to remove.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Hi Tom,

I'm curious why you don't have HC Cuba in this farm tank, it seem to always be in demand as a plant. Did you grow tired of it? 

Also, have you tried any LED systems and if yes, which one was the best? Your ATI fixture uses some mighty expensive bulbs, how much does it cost you to replace? 

I remember seeing you hold a wasbi-kusa grown in a metal tray, where is that? Do you do wasbi-kusa and have any to show?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> I'm curious why you don't have HC Cuba in this farm tank, it seem to always be in demand as a plant. Did you grow tired of it?
> 
> ...


I grow it in my bonsai as ground cover. I use Gloss mostly because it is able to withstand freezing temps, as well as Belem hair grass, HC does not.

HC is commercially available. UG is a much better seller along with Downoi etc.
I already did the 6 ft tank with mostly HC, I've over that trimming PITA.

I've tried a few LED's, not impressed, good for reefs, not so well for plants except for a few cases. They have a ways to go yet, good for smaller nano tanks though. Kessils were nice I thought.

I'd need 6-8 to do this tank though.
Then it'd be washed out and semi white colored.
Good for green themed tanks. 

Bulbs run 8-20$ for the T5's I use.
I rarely ever replace till they die, which none have thus far.

Wasbi-kusa, well, this comes from Bonsai really and searching the term "Tokonoma", [censored][censored][censored][censored]akusa(under grass), Kusamono, (grass thing), Kokedama(moss ball), 

So from the above, you can infer kusa pretty well right? = grass.
Wasbi, perhaps along a stream or water. 
The example I showed is a redwood burl I've had for years now. 
It is a tree without any sediment. Bald cypress can be done like that also somewhat.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> Wasbi-kusa, well, this comes from Bonsai really and searching the term "Tokonoma", [censored][censored][censored][censored]akusa(under grass), Kusamono, (grass thing), Kokedama(moss ball),


Rather comical that a Japanese word is censored because it's almost like a slang word that is a no no here. I learned something new today with all these Japanese words and that's no $hita.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ua hua said:


> Rather comical that a Japanese word is censored because it's almost like a slang word that is a no no here. I learned something new today with all these Japanese words and that's no $hita.


Guano software filtering. Well, I understand that.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Redid the front middle foreground with more wood, pulled the UG back more, expanded the Blood vomit section nicely and finally in a way I'm good with. 

Not words I'd ever thought I would use together in a serious post, that's for sure. 

I will add another few minor items and another green plant in the front Right now to match the Blood vomit section. Not sure what just yet.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Pondering adding another plant in front of the Downoi, but.......I might pull the entire front edge back all thr way across about 1" and keep it clean and trimmed. The E. hydropiper looks fine pressed up against the glass, the Boodvomits I'm not concerned about.
I am havign trouble thinking of a good contrast plant for the corner, weedy stuff is out, have to be fine textured and darker, red or dark green, mosses, I have a little Weeping moss there on a stick. 
Monte carlo, but it mounds up, Gloss is decent, but too common.

Piluaria americana is one option. A nice little heterosporus fern native to my region, actually down the street in a vernal pool next to the railroad tracks. Bright green grass like fern. I have to wait for spring. 





EH is coming along and I've spread the patch some. I assume dit was a high light demanding plant, or would grow much better with the light cranked, well, it's been shaded due to the growth of other plants, and in the front, and it's down very well. Mostly a good, finer sediment to get well rooted into. 

Areas to work on:
Sygnonanthus on the left will get a couple of more trims before the group is optimal
I drilled 10 more 1/2" holes into the wood and added more Ricciardia. The livewort grows out much nicer and easier vs tying with cotton string. Cotton works well for the mosses, less so for this one.
Blood vomits will fatten up and get much denser in another 2 months or so. 
I'll need to harvest the Erio compressum and replant. 
Erio type 3, the gaint Erio setaceum, in the rear right corner is doign much better and it will take maybe another 2-3 months to fill that section well. Not the fastest recovery plant.
Find a home for the Limnophila wavy guinea. Nice plant, I also have a couple of stems of Hottonia palustris I can use in a similar spot, texture etc. The wavy is a whiter green though, I have always liked it, but it's more suited to nature style, but a nice group like where the S. madiera is on the side next to the stump roots coming down would do well. But the plant is not worth as much compared the S maderia, so......and there's not much space of changes I can make at this point without harming another group. This will allow me to spread the L sphaerocarpa wider in the front, which helps depth perspective.
I may remove the Fissiden branches and replace with Ricciardia. I may keep a branch or two of the Fissidens though in 1-2 spots.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

EH is doing better:


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Let us or me know how the weeping moss does, like to see what it does in a high co2 tank


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> Let us or me know how the weeping moss does, like to see what it does in a high co2 tank


Same as any other moss.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Same as any other moss.


My bet if it doesn't brown out, it'll start growing out stringy and not full and lush. You'll need to trim it. Heres a chance to disprove another myth:icon_eek::drool::icon_cool


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> My bet if it doesn't brown out, it'll start growing out stringy and not full and lush. You'll need to trim it. Heres a chance to disprove another myth:icon_eek::drool::icon_cool


This assumes that it is V ferrarei


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Redid the front section and decided to keep the plants I have for now and expanded the Riccardia and added a couple small pieces of wood to fill in the gaps and added more Riccardia on those pieces, removed some Fissidens and added more Riccardia to that branch.
I expanded the front Blood vomit section about 2/3rds of the way across the tank now. I'll leave it alone for the next 2 months, then see where I am at, fatten up the section maybe one more time, sell the leftovers and then the next grow in stage will give me a pretty thick hair grass like appearance, it'll look pretty good. 
Thinned some of the older leaves and gave the Erio compressums a good inspection. Figured that the Hottonia will look nice and arch over nicely in the section between the L sphaerocarpa and the A. reineckii mini. Not a large group, but just a little bright green that's manageable. Blood vomits contrast nicely against the wood slats I added vs being lost in a jungle of taller plants.

Otherwise just growing the groups in and waiting for others to fill in nicer, then trim, fatten things back up and wait for the next round. Pics below are not post redo but close.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The tank today:




I redid the Trithuria, blood vomit section and will treat it like hair grass basically, it's like a red based Belem hair grass etc. 
I think it now looks much better against the wood vs lost next to other plants.
Also added more Mini Pellia and decided to add more of that throughout the scape. 
Hottonia will have a small rown hanging over the Trithuria and be pressed outward b the A. reineckii mini. 
This will offer some needed contrast in this central area. I wanted to use the Limnophila guinea wavy, but I might use it elsewhere at some point later.
For now, the Limnophila has no home in this tank. 

Erio Type 3 is doing better and better, but it's hard to tell from the pics.
It's growing as it should. Making a nice larger group of this plant is not easy
But at this point, it's just patience. 
Same for the other plants.















Some labeling of the Sygonanthus varieties I have here, all of which are the same species, but other varieties.





Some detail on how I use a drill and add Riccardia and do not use cotton string. the mesh like form of the plant acts like a spring to hold the plant in place, then it grows out nicely from there.


Here's some algae from about 6 weeks ago when the CO2 ran out. BBA popped up and it was very minor. Some leaves got a tinge, they were trimmed off, the wood got a few tiny bits, and most were removed. 




The Trithuria species against the wood. This will fill in be 2-3 months from now pretty thick. I'm good with this position for the plant and was never happy prior. 
So it'll stay here for awhile I suspect.


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## manzpants92 (Dec 6, 2012)

Looks really nice Tom


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

Man, that blood vomit is looking super nice.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HybridHerp said:


> Man, that blood vomit is looking super nice.


I was hoping it might be redder, but it's a nice alternative to hair grass.


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> I was hoping it might be redder, but it's a nice alternative to hair grass.


Idk, I kind of like the subtly red thing it has going on. Just enough to be interesting, but not enough to be flashy per say.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HybridHerp said:


> Idk, I kind of like the subtly red thing it has going on. Just enough to be interesting, but not enough to be flashy per say.


It will look good once it fills in nicely, and using it like a grass is wiser for scaping. At least for this iteration. It will different enough to tell it's not Belem hair grass, and make people take a second look.


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## Oto Guy (Jan 3, 2014)

Nice Aquascape. That looks so cool!


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> It will look good once it fills in nicely, and using it like a grass is wiser for scaping. At least for this iteration. It will different enough to tell it's not Belem hair grass, and make people take a second look.


Question about Blood Vomit actually. Does it spread like hairgrass or do you have to split it like an Erio? And are the roots on it thin like hairgrass or more like an Erio where they are very thick and long?


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## The Trigger (May 9, 2012)

That blood vomit looks beautiful Tom


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HybridHerp said:


> Question about Blood Vomit actually. Does it spread like hairgrass or do you have to split it like an Erio? And are the roots on it thin like hairgrass or more like an Erio where they are very thick and long?


More Erio-ish, but it gets dense and will fill in like grass. I just leave them be for 2 months or so, they really took off.

You can divide them easier than the Erio's actually.
They grow better, they stay small and subtle than Erios. 
Roots, the same as Erios.

But I'm more interested in seeing what can be done with this plant and the other weird species, not typically or never used in scapes. I enjoy that a great deal. It's also a good farm plant which is another strong consideration for a large mat of it. 

Making use of something that might at 1st seem bland, not a bad skill to have.
Same issue with the Erio compressum, I managed to use it well in this latest scape.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The Trigger said:


> That blood vomit looks beautiful Tom


It was a real rough night at the Irish pubs..........


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## jimmyjam (Dec 25, 2008)

Amazing scape yet again. What's the biggest challenge for this tank?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jimmyjam said:


> Amazing scape yet again. What's the biggest challenge for this tank?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Mostly deciding who to keep and who not to. Often times a new plant will become available. So where do I put it? If I add another green, then I need to add or delete a red. If I add another red, will it contrast well with the others? 
will the plant do well in the location I chose? Should the shape, or the size of the patch chose be effective to high light the plant and not block the views of the other plants as it grows out much? Is the rate of growth too fast? 
Can I sell this new plant easily? 

Often such plants are new and few folks have experience or have scaped with them. So there's a lot of trade offs and considerations when adding something new. The plant choices are hardly the plain and boring species, it's pretty much all eclectic, hard to grow rarer species.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Water is hazy from cleaning the sponge block filters once every 3 months or so. 
Cleared up a bit more than I thought it might after I 1st did it.

Top view:





You can see a nice crown of the Erio type 3 here.




You can see smaller runty rattier ones, but they are getting better and will form a nice top crown and keep doing this for now on. 
Maybe another 2 months or so, the section will be nice and full of nice large crows, roughly 4" across. In the deep corn there, the Limnophila wavy guinea I stuffed in the back, but it should do fine back there and is a bit different from the Erio. I might mix a red plant to break the green green color scheme between them, but it's not needed since you cannot see it that easily. So that brings up a question, why have it if you cannot see it much? Sort of a bank of plants in case I decide to change or move something else without ripping up too much stuff.









UG is very dense now:


ET is getting a nice rug: you can see bubbles under the sediment near the roots, any ideas on what those gas bubbles are? How does very active healthy plant growth affect their formation? What if you suddenly slowed the rates of plant growth way down?




King of the Erio's:


Ricciardia on the stump with cherry shrimp infesting it. 



Couch view.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Hey wait a min, what about those gas bubbles? I get them too when I point my CFL close to the Glosso, is the rapid growth pumping a ton of oxygen in the sediment? 

Tell me, this is a good thing.


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## erimar (Oct 19, 2013)

Wow! Your tank is amazing...In addition to CO2 what are the parameters of the tank and what's your dosing regimen? I am new to the hobby and your tank is truly an inspiration.

Regards,

Erick


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Hey wait a min, what about those gas bubbles? I get them too when I point my CFL close to the Glosso, is the rapid growth pumping a ton of oxygen in the sediment?
> 
> Tell me, this is a good thing.


Yes, but what does a lot of O2 in the sediment do then next? Do roots produce O2, or do they just respire?

Or do they pump O2 from above from thr shoot, down to the roots, then the roots use the O2 and a lot of O2 also leaks out around the roots.......what does this O2 then become? How does the active optimal growth in the shoot relate to the sediment?


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## The Trigger (May 9, 2012)

Every time I see this thread pop up on the list I look at it even though I've seen it countless times. Never fails to blow my mind. Excellent work Tom


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The Trigger said:


> Every time I see this thread pop up on the list I look at it even though I've seen it countless times. Never fails to blow my mind. Excellent work Tom


I move the leggos around quite often

By posting often, it shows consistency. It shows what can be done, what trimming is done, changes made if things do not grow the way you like, the lack of algae issues with dosing higher ferts under high light and good CO2 etc.
and it highlights the progression through time of the newer and red species of plants that many seek to grow and covet. I can easily take a picture of a nice single stem at some point in time and then use that over and over again, but you cannot fake this for 2 years and post every week or two.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Some odd percent like 40% or so of the nutrients taken in by the leaves are deposited in the substrate much of it is o2.


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## Fishumms (Apr 21, 2010)

Is that stuff on your stump Riccardia chamedryfolia? Thank you. Google seems to not know to what you are referring to in that post.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

BruceF said:


> Some odd percent like 40% or so of the nutrients taken in by the leaves are deposited in the substrate much of it is o2.


Roots are respiring, no photosynthesis. But they do act as pipes to add O2 to the rhizosphere. But the gas is mostly CO2, O2 is quickly consumed in the clay like loamy sediments. I bubbled it up and collected it in a cup. Burped that into a flask with a pH probe. O2 would not impact pH and would burn more if you add flame near it. I also have an O2 Hack LDO, same as the tank water. 

Pretty easy to tell for me. 

Plants pipe a fair amount of O2 to the sediments, but not a wasteful purging amount. They will give that off at the shoot. They want somewhat low O2 conditions but too much in the root zones.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Fishumms said:


> Is that stuff on your stump Riccardia chamedryfolia? Thank you. Google seems to not know to what you are referring to in that post.



Yes.

Riccardia


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Left for 5 days, the tank was not fertilized. 

Growth was good, a tinge of a few leaf holes on some plants, 95% of the other species are perfect though. A bit of glass algae. Wiped, did a good hack and trim. Lot of a overgrowth. Groups are getting nicer.


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## Wolf19 (Jan 24, 2013)

plantbrain said:


> Left for 5 days, the tank was not fertilized.
> 
> Growth was good, a tinge of a few leaf holes on some plants, 95% of the other species are perfect though. A bit of glass algae. Wiped, did a good hack and trim. Lot of a overgrowth. Groups are getting nicer.


Hey Tom,

The leaf holes - feels like a really quick response from your plants in a 5 day period. I'm seeing this on a few of my plants, what nutrient deficiency do you attribute this to?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Wolf19 said:


> Hey Tom,
> 
> The leaf holes - feels like a really quick response from your plants in a 5 day period. I'm seeing this on a few of my plants, what nutrient deficiency do you attribute this to?


Most likely nitrogen.

there's plenty of everything else and the plants are able to tolerate limitations for many of the other nutrients quite well or there's just plenty of them, eg, a lot of K+. Many think K+, but there's 5-7X more per ration required for growth than N.

So N is the main limiting fert in this tank but if I'm around more, then I can take care of that with 2x a week dosing. The ADA is getting older also, if it was new, then the tank would not have such issues. Since it is a source of N for the 1st few months.


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## gnod (Mar 24, 2011)

amazing as always! 

i wanted to ask, is that m.p. on your wood? if so, how do you get it to grow so compactly? Did you tie it to the wood or stuff them into the holes you drilled?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The Riccardia grows like this on the wood, I do not use string to tie it, I just stuff into cracks or holes. It grows differently in my 70 gallon lower light tank with the Buce's. Not quite as compact. Likely due to the intense lighting.


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

Wait, so you drilled holes into the wood and stuffed the mini pellia in the holes?

I might have to try this now, do you think it would also work for mosses like fissiden?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HybridHerp said:


> Wait, so you drilled holes into the wood and stuffed the mini pellia in the holes?
> 
> I might have to try this now, do you think it would also work for mosses like fissiden?


Yes, Riccardia is rigid, almost spring like, so it'll stay put, moss, unless you stuff a lot into a hole, not so much.

Mosses you generally tie with black 100% cotton string, it'll rot off in 3-6 weeks and the moss will adhere by then. You can put it into cracks and natural spots in the wood. I do that more with moss, but Anubias, Riccardia, some hard to tie locations for other plants, I'll drill holes.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Hey Tom, is there any merit to blue spectrum giving more compact growth? And what determines the length of internods? My Rotala Round is giving me weird growth (healthy otherwise), sometimes the leaf size are large and round, and other times it's longer and narrow. Also, my internods are somewhat long.

Any ideas good sir?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Hey Tom, is there any merit to blue spectrum giving more compact growth? And what determines the length of internods? My Rotala Round is giving me weird growth (healthy otherwise), sometimes the leaf size are large and round, and other times it's longer and narrow. Also, my internods are somewhat long.
> 
> Any ideas good sir?


Only if pigs fly.

I've focused on one thing and pretty much just that for 20 some odd years now.
Good overall general growth. This includes the big 3, CO2, light and ferts. ...but also good care for the tank, water changes, lots of algae eaters, good trimming habits etc.


I've seen old Dutch tanks with compact growth and red yellow lighting.
Seem many leggy looking sorry plants with blue /reef light bulbs mixed with white or red.

Lighting is mostly aesthetics, but only once you get things going really well, can you test them. Then you also need several tanks to say much stat's wise.
Having done that..........I can say with fairly good likelihood.....that some bulbs produce nicer growth, better colors, but..........cannot say much about the claims about compact growth/internodal length of AQUATIC submersed grown plants.

I've never noticed any differences over this time myself or recently either with this tank, only coloration and general growth.

Bulb makers might claim this, but..........the support would only come from terrestrial plants, not submersed plants in aquariums. Their controls are also poorly lacking if they did try this also.

I mix a blue bulb in there, just 1-2 of the 8, mostly to off set the aesthetics of all those 6 other red bulbs. Not for growth, compact etc.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I have about 50 of the Trithuria blood vomits, they are growing back well after the last uprooting and dividing about 3 weeks ago?

Tank is post trim so the L senegal is whacked way back as are the Rotala mini butterfly, Myrio mini and the R wallichii.

No KNO3 for 6 days last week, the E hydropiper yellowed some, the A reineckii mini had a few holes. Other plants seemed fine though. Low N is not wise.

RCS continue to grow/breed like no tomorrow, the cockeroaches of the tanks.
I redid the A reineckii and the Downoi also.

The Erio type 3 is in the rear right corner, it's really blooming up nicely like it should. It is the canary in the coal mine, a bellweather plant for me. If it does well, then everything else will also. It'll be another 2 months or so I'd say before I can trim and redo the section up to nice standards, but.........that's the way this stuff goes.

The side view shows the S. maderia and the lago grande and the dwarf canuck(you can see the differences between the madiera and the dwarf canuck pretty good now after some growth and recovery).

E hydropiper continues to expand and root well even with a little yellowing.

UG is really hyper dense. Even by my standards, the wood boxed it in. Probably should trim and replant it next week. Anyone need a fair amount of dense UG? hehe

The toughest plants for trimming and such:
Tonina, they are not topped. And there are a lot of them.
But they sell well and I have a back list of orders as they grow out. 
Not a hard plant to grow...........but a PITA to trim and propagate.

Easy weeds: R mini butter fly, L tornado, Mini milfoil, H araguaia, Blood vomits, downoi, Cuphea, mosses/liverworts. 

Fastest growing: R wallichii, R macandra, L sphaerocarpa.


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## Wolf19 (Jan 24, 2013)

plantbrain said:


> Only if pigs fly.
> 
> I've focused on one thing and pretty much just that for 20 some odd years now.
> Good overall general growth. This includes the big 3, CO2, light and ferts. ...but also good care for the tank, water changes, *lots of algae eaters*, good trimming habits etc


I feel like I come to this thread to ask more questions than anything! (Apologies in advance). 

What is considered lots of algae eaters? #ottos/gallon? What about individuals who stock tanks with fauna that wouldn't give shrimp much of a chance - other options/opinion? 

TY in advance.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You switch to different fish or you switch to different algae eaters, those are pretty much your 2 main choices.

I love a lot of shrimp eaters.
I have a lot of shrimp.
If you also have plenty of hiding spots, then..........they can get picked off here or there but will not decimate the entire population.

Just the dumb shrimp.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Bulb makers might claim this, but..........the support would only come from terrestrial plants, not submersed plants in aquariums. Their controls are also poorly lacking if they did try this also.



Thanks for clearing that up. 

You're right, I did read that in a terrestrial plant article. Is the growth of aquatic plants consistent on all the spectrum? If the native habitat of the plant is in deep water, would it benefit more from a higher blue spectrum bulb compare to red? It's my understanding that blue penetrates lower and red is absorbed higher up. 



Or do you think the difference will be insignificant in our hobby? I been a bit obsessive in spectrum lately :tongue:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Water is a selective spectral filter. And many of the plants we like are amphibious or rarely under water for long.

So they tend to be very adaptable to spectra. 

Red is selectively filtered, so lots of red= tends to work well IME.
Looks of heavy red can be hideous to okay. So aesthetics play a big role also.

Since red is removed by water, seems adding MORE red vs blue would be wiser.
These are not depth adapted plants by any means, few if any are I would argue, they are amphibious mostly, meaning very little is filtered.

So more red, not freaky Reef blue light is better.
Ironically, their argument is backwards.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

^ Its hard to argue with someone who has a tank like that. What kind of tools do you use to keep the growth tidy? Are you big into the expensive stainless steel equipment, or would anything that cuts do? 

I'm not completely sold on the idea of buying a 50 dollar scissor with a logo.


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## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Do you throw away the plants you don't sell Tom? I figure with a tank that grows stems as fast as yours, it would be hard to constantly sell everything you trim, although I know you do sell bunches. I guess I personally hurt inside a little when I don't have time to package plants and end up throwing them away heh. 

Do you use tap water in this tank? If so what ph does yours come out at?

Your tank looks incredible. Lovin that blood vomit carpet. Very pretty. Is there a reason why you don't mix in Buces or crypts with this tank?

Joshua


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

FlyingHellFish said:


> ^ Its hard to argue with someone who has a tank like that. What kind of tools do you use to keep the growth tidy? Are you big into the expensive stainless steel equipment, or would anything that cuts do?
> 
> I'm not completely sold on the idea of buying a 50 dollar scissor with a logo.


I'm with Amano on this one, "fingers are the best tools".
I think many might find this surprising, but we agree on far more than we disagree.

I use mostly cheapo 4$ scissors and 99 cent cutters. Tank, light, stand,. filter, CO2 etc, I get high grade stuff, as good if not better than ADA.
Somethings you simply do not need to use ADA brands, which are at a prime $. When they are competitively priced, or the only thing available or you are new and do not want to learn 101 ways to skin a cattail, and want an all in one system, then it makes good sense.

Plenty of Camera buffs like all Hassleblad stuff, or all Canon stuff. But many do very well outside of brand names.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

pianofish said:


> Do you throw away the plants you don't sell Tom? I figure with a tank that grows stems as fast as yours, it would be hard to constantly sell everything you trim, although I know you do sell bunches. I guess I personally hurt inside a little when I don't have time to package plants and end up throwing them away heh.
> 
> Do you use tap water in this tank? If so what ph does yours come out at?
> 
> ...


No, I rotate the stands pretty good. Anything worth selling is sold pretty fast.
Ratty lower stems, they are tossed.

Yes, tap is used.
I'm not sure what the pH out of the tap is, does not matter much, pH in the tank after full degassing and then the post CO2 enrichment pH, about all I ever look at.

I have a tank full of Buce's and Anubias whites, already. So no need.
Crypts, I have 2 species in my 180, but only rare and lower light species that are not that commonly available. Metallic affinis red and aponogetiifolia. Not the best sellers, but I like them for other reasons. I use to keep a lot of Crypt species, I'm less interested in that at the moment, but that might change once I get the greenhouse built and a new home etc.


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## jimmyjam (Dec 25, 2008)

That's my problem too. I'm currently running 2x 75 , 90, 49, 30, 10 and a wabi, and still don't have room to put new plants. It's hard to think just scraping when I love collecting so much. This is also why I love pseudo-Dutch Sykes so much, it gives you the opportunity to keep more species. 

A couple of questions:
1). What is the lighting on this tank (can't seem to spot that info on this post)
2) how often do you use excel or peroxide for algae in this tank. Or is it stable enough not to need it

3). Do you ship to Toronto, (. Pm if required). 



plantbrain said:


> Mostly deciding who to keep and who not to. Often times a new plant will become available. So where do I put it? If I add another green, then I need to add or delete a red. If I add another red, will it contrast well with the others?
> 
> will the plant do well in the location I chose? Should the shape, or the size of the patch chose be effective to high light the plant and not block the views of the other plants as it grows out much? Is the rate of growth too fast?
> 
> ...






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## breakg (Oct 4, 2013)

Amazing tank, lucky fishes


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

breakg said:


> Amazing tank, lucky fishes


Hand fed spoiled fish.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jimmyjam said:


> That's my problem too. I'm currently running 2x 75 , 90, 49, 30, 10 and a wabi, and still don't have room to put new plants. It's hard to think just scraping when I love collecting so much. This is also why I love pseudo-Dutch Sykes so much, it gives you the opportunity to keep more species.
> 
> A couple of questions:
> 1). What is the lighting on this tank (can't seem to spot that info on this post)
> ...


I do not ship plants across the borders because it's 5-6 days shipping at best.
It takes some discipline to limit your plant choices, so share with others that will trade or sell them back to you. If the group you have grows well and nice etc, then keep those, the ones that are so so, sell, get rid of them etc. Same with plants your really like. you do not need to keep a species FOREVER, just keep and grow them for 1-2-3 years etc, then move on. 

1.Light is an ATI 8x54W T5 fixture. Runs 8 hours with as 0-100% ramp up and down over an hour at each end of the light period, so 100% for 6 hours.

2.No, I do not use Excel or peroxide as a rule. I might spot treat a small area, but trimming and removing the algae is a better method for this tank.

3. No


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## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

What bulbs do you use in your fixture?
Also, did you build that stand yourself, or did you have it made?


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## Asu1776 (Mar 5, 2013)

Wow, Tom. How do you ever leave your tank? Looks fantastic.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Centromochlus said:


> What bulbs do you use in your fixture?
> Also, did you build that stand yourself, or did you have it made?


I listed it recently, but it's a PITA to scroll back and find it, so:

Giesemann Aquaflora, Zoomed Flora, Zoomed Ultrasun, URI Red sun, Wavepoint Red wave, Zoomed Ultrasun, Zoomed Flora and Giesemann Aquaflora. Front to back. 

Cabinet shops can easily make the stands for less and to a higher grade with options. "Jnaz" made the ones I have in my house. He's down in Corona CA, LA region.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Trying to think what to do in this bare spot, the shorter Syngonanthus did not feel right as as foreground type plant really. So I removed it and placed it in another tank. So this is all of the S madiera now. Cryptocoryne x willisii 'lucen might be good for that spot on the side.
H. sibthorpioides
Starougyne purple or porto velho would work good also.
The EH is simply too short to add cover and transition. I could add more Riccardia on wood in this spot, or another plant species like, a Crypt, but that will be very similar to the Red Hygro araguaia. 
A different shade of green perhaps might work. Hydrocotyle sibthorpides might be good. I want something darker though. 

I'm not entirely happy with the Hottonia, but for now..........I'll likely redo that section with something else. Might add Monte Carlo there. 






Some before and after trim pictures:



After:


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

That Erio compressum is really doing well. That is on my future list of plants. I think the idea of S. Porto Velho would look nice in that spot. It's been a few years since I had that plant and it did really well. Not too many people offering that plant like there was a couple of years ago. It's funny how certain plants are popular and the must have for the moment and then all of a sudden gone and not many people keep them.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I might add more root extensions to the section, moss/Riccardia those, to add green red contrast and add the Crypt affinis back. Then let the EH fill in more on this side. 


Or the Pennywort. 

Most other options are not too my liking just yet.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ua hua said:


> That Erio compressum is really doing well. That is on my future list of plants.



Let me know, I'll replant and uproot the section and replant and cull some for you.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

A couple of weeks later after stuffing the holes I drilled:



Limnophila wavy guinea and Erio type 3 have come a long way:


Erio compressum has many many new side shoot plants.


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## Ebi (Jun 29, 2011)

Nice addition on the Monte! Looks great in front if of Alther. Rei. Mini! 


Those mini pellia grew in quick! 


Mike


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## synaethetic (Oct 4, 2011)

Wow, just when I thought this scape couldn't look better you go and raise the bar even higher. Do you adjust your fertilizing to accommodate the increase in plant mass? Really looks like you have filled this tank in even more than in the past. Looks GOOD.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Looks great as always Tom. You've inspired me to do something similar with my Mr. Aqua tank. In about a month I'm going to tear it down and do a quasi Dutch setup where I can focus on growing and shaping hedges and bushes instead of a nature aquarium agenda. 

I need to get the Seiryu stone out of the tank anyway because it's causing my hardness to skyrocket. I have perfect soft water here for growing Rotalas.


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## rdmustang1 (Oct 20, 2013)

I wish I had half your talent laying scapes out. Unfortunately my creativeness is limited to technical creations and is extremely lacking in the visual department.

One question: Do you do anything in your tanks to promote water circulation? Your plants are always kept trimmed which helps but it seems that you would still have dead spots. Obviously you don't but I'm curious why not.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

synaethetic said:


> Wow, just when I thought this scape couldn't look better you go and raise the bar even higher. Do you adjust your fertilizing to accommodate the increase in plant mass? Really looks like you have filled this tank in even more than in the past. Looks GOOD.


No need, since the rates of N uptake are roughly maxed at 4-5 ppm a day for NO3, and I feed the fish well...................., I dose macros 2x a week, about 15ppm as NO3 form KNO3. 

So this is non limiting even with a stemmy very high light well run tank.
So non limiting is still non limiting.

Pretty much every other tank would use LESS than this rate. 

Trace, I do most days, somedays I forget, or are away........etc.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Overfloater said:


> Looks great as always Tom. You've inspired me to do something similar with my Mr. Aqua tank. In about a month I'm going to tear it down and do a quasi Dutch setup where I can focus on growing and shaping hedges and bushes instead of a nature aquarium agenda.
> 
> I need to get the Seiryu stone out of the tank anyway because it's causing my hardness to skyrocket. I have perfect soft water here for growing Rotalas.


That sounds mostly like hedge trimming, which is what Nature style typically does anyway. The mid and foregrounds you can do a few different things. 

That stone causes some headache for many folks.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

rdmustang1 said:


> I wish I had half your talent laying scapes out. Unfortunately my creativeness is limited to technical creations and is extremely lacking in the visual department.
> 
> One question: Do you do anything in your tanks to promote water circulation? Your plants are always kept trimmed which helps but it seems that you would still have dead spots. Obviously you don't but I'm curious why not.



You can see how the water flows from the outlet:





The only so called dead spots are in the front right corner and side next to the prefilter. But plants still very well there.


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## Asu1776 (Mar 5, 2013)

Can't find a single picture, close or far, minus the mid water change one, where there isn't a noticeable shrimp on some plant. These "red dots" in your long shots. Must have 100's in there.


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## rajah_22 (Dec 12, 2013)

How do you keep the shrimp happy in such a high Co2 tank? 

Any tips for oxygenation? Just surface agitation or do you run air stones, etc. to keep O2 high? Thanks.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

When I see a tank this nice I fluctuate between envy and fury. I really hope I can eventually get mine to grow into something half as nice as this.


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

rajah_22 said:


> How do you keep the shrimp happy in such a high Co2 tank?
> 
> Any tips for oxygenation? Just surface agitation or do you run air stones, etc. to keep O2 high? Thanks.


Wet/dry sump. All o2 you will ever need.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Antbug has seen the tank many times. 

The shrimp, heck, I could not kill them, they are cockeroaches. 
They are in the filter, in the prefilter, all over everything. 

Likely 500+ shrimp. I could easily remove 100 and you could not tell the difference. My 180 Gallon has the same issue.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Lol. They certainly are like cockroaches. Have you ever caught one in the scissors during an aggressive trim?


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Tom, what is the reddish orange plant behind the Erio type 3? Is it L. Brevipes or a Rotala? 

Also how tall do you let some of the mid ground stems get before trimming/topping? Do you let them get at or near the surface? I imagine if not you would have to trim most of them very often. I don't think most people have any idea how much work it is to keep such a well manicured and balanced scape. While the colors and scape is awe inspiring to almost everyone that sees your pictures I'm amazed at the way everything is always trimmed and shaped to complement the grouping next to it.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Overfloater said:


> Lol. They certainly are like cockroaches. Have you ever caught one in the scissors during an aggressive trim?


Not that I'm aware of, but they have been shipped often with plants by accident and made it alive to dozens of folks. I think it's a hoot that people claim they are touchy and sensitive to water changes, ferts and CO2. Some poorly inbred types perhaps, but not these.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ua hua said:


> Tom, what is the reddish orange plant behind the Erio type 3? Is it L. Brevipes or a Rotala?
> 
> Also how tall do you let some of the mid ground stems get before trimming/topping? Do you let them get at or near the surface? I imagine if not you would have to trim most of them very often. I don't think most people have any idea how much work it is to keep such a well manicured and balanced scape. While the colors and scape is awe inspiring to almost everyone that sees your pictures I'm amazed at the way everything is always trimmed and shaped to complement the grouping next to it.


Prob the Rotlata mini butterfly. In front is the R. macrandra. Mid ground plants have a trim rotation, most do not need trimming much, Erio compressum, A reinecki mini, Downoi etc, UG EH, Blood Vomit. Few plants need uprooting. So it's not that hard. Easier than the last tank scape I had before. 

I guess learning how to manage and do the trimming and plant selection is one of the larger skills that make many tanks a success. 

Same with Bonsai.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> Prob the Rotlata mini butterfly. In front is the R. macrandra. Mid ground plants have a trim rotation, most do not need trimming much, Erio compressum, A reinecki mini, Downoi etc, UG EH, Blood Vomit. Few plants need uprooting. So it's not that hard. Easier than the last tank scape I had before.
> 
> I guess learning how to manage and do the trimming and plant selection is one of the larger skills that make many tanks a success.
> 
> Same with Bonsai.


I guess when I said mid ground plants I was talking more about plants like R. macrandra, L. senegalensis, Tonina, L. sphaerocarpa. Do these plants need to be trimmed or topped and replanted on a weekly or biweekly basis. I completely understand what you mean about the trimming and management of plants is a skill and I find myself learning as I go with how certain plants respond to different methods of pruning. There really needs to be more information on this subject but I guess learning from experience is the best method of teaching.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

I think this is what you would call "Insparatie" in Dutch.

Wonderful!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I haven't seen the VorTech in your recent pics. Are you still using it or is all flow coming from the return pump now?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Phil Edwards said:


> I haven't seen the VorTech in your recent pics. Are you still using it or is all flow coming from the return pump now?


No, just the filter return. 

You could use it, but there's less stuff inside and less stuff to worry about.
Current is fine in here.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ua hua said:


> I guess when I said mid ground plants I was talking more about plants like R. macrandra, L. senegalensis, Tonina, L. sphaerocarpa. Do these plants need to be trimmed or topped and replanted on a weekly or biweekly basis. I completely understand what you mean about the trimming and management of plants is a skill and I find myself learning as I go with how certain plants respond to different methods of pruning. There really needs to be more information on this subject but I guess learning from experience is the best method of teaching.


L sphaerocarpa needs a decent trim about every 7-12 days. Tonina, once every month or two. L sengalensis gets hair cut mostly. R macrandra maybe once every 2 weeks.

Tonina is the only one that takes a fair amount of time. 

One must also have the "will and motivation" to do the work, so if you have 10-20 tanks, that's not likely.


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

How tall does compressum get?

I don't think I can get enough of your tank man, it's fantastic.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

10" or so.



Post trim, did a fair amount of Erio removal so it's still pretty cloudy:
Things will fill in pretty good this next cycle. 
The Erio setaceum type 3 in the rear right corner have come in nicely now. 
I had to most doubts about those. 

The Erio compressum will fill back in pretty nicely over the next 2-3 months. 

Elatine hydropiper will continue to spread and fill in some of the open area before the erios get too big.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Replanted the Blood vomit 5 minutes ago, so it's cloudy still.


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## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Tank is looking great Tom. That blood vomit is coming in really nicely. I really enjoy the contrast between the ug the hydropiper and the vomit. It really adds some nice texturing to the foreground. Really makes me want to hone in to observe the complexity of each different layer. That mini pellia on the DW really stands out too. It adds age to the tank. Almost like old stones with algae, but with a more "organized" appeal. 
Props,
Joshua


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## annyann (Aug 31, 2013)

Your tank looks awesome!!:drool:


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

What's the clumpy stuff on the stump? And does it naturally grow like that or do you really have to work with it to get that effect? Really cool.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

pianofish said:


> Tank is looking great Tom. That blood vomit is coming in really nicely. I really enjoy the contrast between the ug the hydropiper and the vomit. It really adds some nice texturing to the foreground. Really makes me want to hone in to observe the complexity of each different layer. That mini pellia on the DW really stands out too. It adds age to the tank. Almost like old stones with algae, but with a more "organized" appeal.
> Props,
> Joshua


Initially I was worried that they would not match up well, the Blood vomit particularly so.

So to that end, I'm pleased.

It's like the ultimate belem type hair grass.
Even smaller and shorter.

Riccardia is like Chakra oozing out of the wood so to speak.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Rush3737 said:


> What's the clumpy stuff on the stump? And does it naturally grow like that or do you really have to work with it to get that effect? Really cool.


Mini pellia/Riccardai, no, it just grows like this over time.


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## caique (Mar 16, 2012)

Hi Tom,

As usual tank looks awesome, what is the fish on the far right of post 141.

John


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

caique said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> As usual tank looks awesome, what is the fish on the far right of post 141.
> 
> John


I think its a double trunk elephant nose.

Tom, you have several of these guys yah? I know other electric fish have poor eyesight and are said to be sensitive to light, you have them in very high light, do you notice them stressing at all or do they just chill among the plants and find shade that way?


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## caique (Mar 16, 2012)

Thanks hybridherp,

Checked it out, looks like its not good for a community tank, looks kind of cool and different.

Although Tom seems to have it with small fish, huh.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

They are fine, they do not bother anyone except one another. 
Well, they do bite my arm to feed them, like a pesky dog.

They do not come out much during the day.


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## pandacory (Apr 18, 2011)

I can never quite decide if you make me want to try harder, or just give up.

excellent work, an inspiration to say the least.


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## Rush3737 (Jan 15, 2013)

pandacory said:


> I can never quite decide if you make me want to try harder, or just give up.


Bingo.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

pandacory said:


> I can never quite decide if you make me want to try harder, or just give up.
> 
> excellent work, an inspiration to say the least.


Basically, it helps to know it's possible and that ferts are not evil nor need to be fussed over. Also to show you can have a nice scape and different style that lends itself to good crop production for income.

Collectoritis can be harnessed and controlled.:tongue:

The Blood vomit alone made well over 600$ this last trim. 2-3 months from now, that will repeat.
Nice plant when used effectively. I had trouble figuring out what to do with it myself for some time. A good scape with a sizeable group also sells the plants much much better than a ratty single stem in a grow out tank.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Gold Nuggets keep uprooting the EH. So I expanded the Cuphae which if you allow it a lot of light and to grow up taller, then trim, looks like mini Rotala sunset.
But it's much better than R sunset for scaping(much better behavior).

When I 1st grew both species, I never thought I'd say that.


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## chan1011 (Mar 17, 2014)

Looks really amazing!! I can't wait till I get a place big enough to house something like this


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Have you had any issues with stems growing horizontally? My Peruensis looks like it has scoliosis.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I removed the Erio Compressum. It was never meant to be in the scape anyway, and it's now in my 180 in place of the Blyxa. 

Downoi now is in that place and I moved the S. madiera over to the far right front side. I think both plants will do better in each location that they were prior.
I'll need to redo the Cuphea section some and I might bring back the Rotala green to this side where I had it once before. I have the L. guinea Wavy there now, it was left ina bucket for a few days, so it'll perk up good.
Not really a good contrast though with the Myrio behind it though. 

I have some Hydrothrix, but it's got a similar fine leaf as the Myrio, but a different color shade/darker green.
I have reg Erio setaceum(normal type) and also the giant type 3. I could split those on either side of the tank.
I doubt I'll do that however.

Anubias petite nana is an option as is some Bolbitus or some plant I've not yet considered.
Most of the other spots are filled well and locked in for the moment.

Just that side really.

Downoi and the Blood vomits will fill in well.

Tank is hazy after uprooting the Erios and Downoi. 
Be a day or two till that clears.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

How do you keep the height of the plants so consistent? Do you trim everything at one time and replant (I doubt that) or do you just know from experience how fast each grows? I have the problem of different stem heights, one or two stems of a plant will explode with growth, while the other ones slowly try to catch up. 


Also, your second picture has this "mountain" feel to it and you achieve it with only plants and wood, impressive.

PS - Yeah that haze is ridiculous, I always get cloudy water when I replant, or scape. Hopefully ADA comes out with a harder granule of AquaSoil.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I trim sections every so often, some need once a week, but only 1-2 species, the others, once every 2-4 weeks ranges.

Cut cut cut.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

plantbrain said:


>


This is an amazing photo on many levels. The richness and depth created by the different colors and heights is captivating. It's like an aerial view of an enchanted, magical forest. The cloudiness even adds to the mystique, rather like fog or mist of some sort. I love this picture.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I'll post some more after a post trim.


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

feel free to ship those clippings out to me. I'll even pay for shipping


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## jcgilmore2 (Jul 10, 2013)

You think you will every go LED in the future? I have LEDs on my reef tank but still love T5HO for planted for reasons unknown to myself... I think if they came out with an awesome multichip with just the right combo I'd make the conversion to one big LED pendent. 

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

jcgilmore2 said:


> You think you will every go LED in the future? I have LEDs on my reef tank but still love T5HO for planted for reasons unknown to myself... I think if they came out with an awesome multichip with just the right combo I'd make the conversion to one big LED pendent.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


I prefer the color of "planted tank" T5HOs over most LED lights. But I still use LED's mainly, from BML, because I love the ease of use and no bulbs to replace.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)




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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

It truly looks like a world of it's own, not just a fantastic aquarium. Such an amazing layout. Great pics, thanks for posting them.

Do you mind if I ask what kind of plant this is?


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Ludwigia Sphaerocarpa.


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## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Tom, I don't know if it has been asked yet but why did you go with a HOB overflow instead of getting these tanks drilled?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Overfloater said:


> Tom, I don't know if it has been asked yet but why did you go with a HOB overflow instead of getting these tanks drilled?


Cannot change your mind later and I hate the boxes inside the tank. They can be removed for pics etc. You cannot do that with built ins.


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## johnnytrn (Feb 23, 2014)

Oh my goodness, I can literally stare at this tank all day


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Water is cloudy because I obviously just moved a few things and trimmed a lot. The highlighted plant here is the green Erio setaceum, type 1. In the rear is a massive type 3. It has a darker green color and is about 3x as large. The S. maderia was not doing so well and the position was not far, just 2 rows over for the Erio's. They were in sad shape a couple of months ago, but now they are looking very nice. I've had better luck with Type 3, but this is about the 3-4th time I've found decent success with the Type 1 and am now able to scape effectively with it over the long term. It's somewhat slower growing and forms nice dichotomous branch tops. These are nice bright white green making for a nice contrast against the broad red leaves. The Front red plant is A. reineckii "mini" which is similar in growth rates as the Erio type 1. The Rotala macrandra is a weed, but it's pretty and does well on this troublesome location. So I do not care much about it, it'll grow no matter what abuse I throw at it. The next bright green plant is the Micrantherum(we are sure of this genus) umbrosum(?) monte carlo. I sent some to Tropica so it will be widely available commercially soon. You can also look at the piece of wood I put over in this right corner and drilled holes for the Riccardia, it's completely engulfed now. Took a bit of patience, but now it's doing what I want. To be able to scape with a nice plant effectively is a good feeling. It's not an easy one for most people.
The other picture gives you an idea of the hacking I do. I uprooted and then replanted the tops this time to most of the rear row, I topped but did not uproot the the Ludwigia senegalensis. Ludwigia sphaerocarpa gets a good hack every week pretty much, grows about 3-4" a week I'd say. The bottom portions, the stumps will send new side shoots if you plant them back or in another tank, or outside emergent. the Monte Carlo, I keep pushing back as it creeps into the other groups. Bladderwort is present and is the biggest PITA in taking care of this tank. I try hard to keep ahead of it. The ADA aqua soil clouds a lot, but the tank will clear in less than a day or so I would say.
I'm not sure what I'll do about the rear right corner yet, the type 3 Erio setaceum is a nice plant, so I might see which of those or the S madeira does well/better back there. If so, I'll pout the Erio type 3 in the 180 Gallon tank and make a nice stand over time over there. If not, then perhaps this or some other new plant that comes down the pipe.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

You probably get tired of repeated "awesome" "amazing" "wow" type comments, but there's really nothing else to say. Honestly Im running out of adjectives. The best I can do at this point is thank you for sharing pics and the always solid info. Keep them coming by all means, they make me want to be a better fwp aquarist.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Yes, amazing tank. Tom, do you ever get algae with all this uprooting work? Just wondering...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

fablau said:


> Yes, amazing tank. Tom, do you ever get algae with all this uprooting work? Just wondering...


Only if I do a lot, and then do not follow up with a water change. I tried this for 10-12 days, got BBA bloom each time. With the resumption of the water changes, the BBA stopped and cleared up once again. 

This suggest that something other than CO2 is a cause for BBA blooms, likely related to lower O2, perhaps a slight increase of CO2 and perhaps COD/TOC loading.

I've cut and left trimmings in the tank for a few days, no impact. 
So cut plants are not a cause. 

Maybe if you leave them for 10-12 days without doing any water changes. But that seems unlikely.

Seems more likely to be something involved with the roots/bacteria stabilizing the sediment and that..........the active healthy growth in the sediment, and the removal of muck above, seems like the biggest signal for algae.

Since water changes mitigates those effects, it MAKES A LOT OF SENSE that water changes are a wise routine for NEW planted aquariums, like 2-3 a week, 50-70% etc, for 1-2 months, about the time it takes for a nice new bacteria and root system to establish. 
And for folks having issues with CO2 and other factors, water changes also helps a lot.

But I can rule out CO2 in this aquarium.
Plant growth is vigorous.
If I do not uproot and allow the plants to over grow(leave for 1-2 weeks for vacation), then the water and tank is clear when I get back.

I've seen similar observations in many tanks besides this one.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Very nice Tom, this tank is approaching perfection of your own style.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Thank you Tom for the very detailed explanation, all that makes sense and corresponds to my own personal experience.


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## umarnasir335 (Mar 2, 2014)

Tom, I'm a relative newcomer to the hobby (started getting into plants this January), and thanks to your amazing work, I just ordered myself some colored stems (Rotala pearl, macrandra, nanjeshan, and Ludwigia atlantis and Senegalensis).

I would like to thank you for providing me with so much inspiration. You truly make your tanks a work of art


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## The Plantman (May 5, 2010)

Tom, I've been gone for a few years, new career, collage. Anyway, in all that time I ran pressure Co2 in the tank and battled little besides too much growth. Been running EI and it's just been excellent.

This new scape looks fantastic. I knew from the first pictures it would turn out wonderful. I think this has to give everyone inspiration for what is totally achievable by anyone with the time and patients.

Thanks for posting it.

Shawn


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## Charlest (May 24, 2011)

Tom how how much phosphates are you really dosing. You always say "It's cloudy from mucking about in the substrate" when in fact I believe it to be iron and phosphate interaction. Gimme the numbers come on baby give em to me.


Sent from my LG-D500 using Tapatalk


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## Charlest (May 24, 2011)

Guess I killed all the fun.

Sent from my LG-D500 using Tapatalk


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I dose 5 ppm 2x a week from KH2PO4.

Clay particles are not interactions between PO4 and Fe, those are dosed and they cause no issues. It's VERY easy to rule that out, all you do is not uproot and replant things. Then add a lot of PO4 and a lot of Fe. No haze whatsoever. I can take pure water and some of the sediment and get a muddy mess real fast using RO water. Belief is a poor substitute for logic.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Congrats Shawn, you made it. Now the real work begins.


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## BraveBuc (Nov 8, 2012)

The tank is really looking great. I like how you have sort of a rolling hills effect to really create a lot of depth in the scape.

I'm trying to get in your head a little bit on the dosing for this tank. I know it's splitting hairs a little as my own experience has agreed light/C02 and care are most important when dosing EI. I've seen you mention you dose a cocktail of iron sources with the micros almost daily. Is the daily dosing for a constant supply of the easily available Fe Gluconate? Or, is there more to it? Do you dose macros and micros same day?

Oh, if you felt so inclined, I would love to hear more about trimming/care of the tank as you have done in previous posts. Very useful as that is where I'm lacking (and a lot of other people I suspect).


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I'll say this and I've said for a very long time, do not worry so much about dosing ferts, worry about good general care, good trimming/plant horticulture and CO2/light.

EI does not imply any more attention to light/CO2 than any other method, anyone that claims that, is full of beans. 

You can have a low light tank and dose EI, no issues, much more wiggle room than say at high light. Light is where most of the problems start and most are not willing to adjust or replace the lighting. So CO2 is the next thing/problem. 

Too much light, not enough CO2, but ferts are almost always the 1st thing that many hobbyist look to blame.

Sometimes, folks have too little light, or poor circulation, filtration, think they know what their CO2 ppm are and think they are non limiting etc. 
There's plenty of reasons, but ferts is rarely one of them and it's very easy to rule out ferts as a cause for issues.


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## BraveBuc (Nov 8, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> I'll say this and I've said for a very long time, do not worry so much about dosing ferts, worry about good general care, good trimming/plant horticulture and CO2/light.
> 
> EI does not imply any more attention to light/CO2 than any other method, anyone that claims that, is full of beans.
> 
> ...


I certainly did not intend to imply CO2/light was harder when dosing EI. Rather, I meant that I knew I did not need to worry about nutrients because I'm dosing EI and can focus on the more important light/co2/care.

You are preaching to the choir but I can see how you read it that way. Was just curious about the theory behind your dosing schedule. I like to understand how things work as much as I like healthy plants.

/shrug


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I know BraveBruc on the choir part
Not directed at you personally in any way, I'm not like that at all in person.



If you have lower light, or slower growing plants etc, there's also no need to "LARD IT ON", you can and likely most should after a few months, start reducing the dosing and seeing how the tank responds. 

Some tanks might only need 1/2 standard EI.
Some 1/3, others might need 3/4ths etc. 

Some folks might not find a huge difference either way. 
Some use soil and nutrients in the sediments also, so I would suggest they use a bit more KNO3 and less of the other stuff.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I'll update a few things tonight.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

There was a post about this tank in another forum, something about algae over running it. I didn't believe them and ask for a pic, they said the thread is gone.

Is it true?


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## jeffdenney (Jun 21, 2013)

Im sure its been asked but is there any fish in that tank?? 

Im currently reducing my ei dosing to settle some last algae issues im having... learned so much from tom words of wisdom..lol


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

Not complete without guppies.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

FlyingHellFish said:


> There was a post about this tank in another forum, something about algae over running it. I didn't believe them and ask for a pic, they said the thread is gone.
> 
> Is it true?


Blasphemy..... How dare you say Tom's tank is overrun with algae. :hihi:

I wouldn't have believed it myself until I saw the pictures over on the barr report. I'm sure Tom will be posting the pictures of the algae field in all its glory on here soon enough though. If anything it just goes to show that anyone can have an algae outbreak but the ones with real experience know how to fix the issues instead of freaking out and trying to nuke the entire tank to rid it.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I left the country for 10 days, came back to this, the CO2 gas tank ran out according to Murphy law precise spects..........about 2 days after I left. 
No ferts added. No CO2, but lots of light.




about 2 hours later:



Next day:



I still need to trim the Tonina and the Blood vomits, but they need trimmed either way. 95% is elbow grease. 

This is a relatively easy fix actually.

CO2 rate was set well prior, so adding a new gas tank and then cleaning did most of the work. Just shows that good plant care is about 95% of all the issues folks have, no reducing ferts or fiddling with some special scheme. There's nothing that special about it. 

Most overlook good plant growth and conditions, it really is as simple as that.
Even with decades of examples, facts and experience, folks often just do not take the advice you give them.
Some are doomed to have to learn the hard way.


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## exv152 (Jun 8, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> Some are doomed to have to learn the hard way.


Or dare I say, not at all.


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## BraveBuc (Nov 8, 2012)

Your bad luck with the co2 is actually very useful as a learning tool for others. As I've gone through the process of learning about planted tanks, I've found lots of great pictures and videos on how to plant or do certain layouts or whatever. There is also tons of information available about CO2 and dosing and so on. I have not however found much info from pros or advanced hobbyists about dealing with algae outside of CO2, nutrients and chemicals like algaefix/excel. Sure you see people saying remove algae covered leaves and what not but I don't think that is really clear to a newbie. I for one was scared to death that cutting my already struggling plants would be the final blow. That would cause me to leave algae there to grow into an even bigger issue.

I think a Youtube vid of someone that really knows what they are doing, taking an algae infested tank and just cleaning it up and removing algae covered plant mass would really help a lot of people a lot more than the endless threads about some nutrient or color of a drop checker.

This is just a rant and not a suggestion directed specifically at you Tom.

On another note, you sure hacked that Ludwigia down.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Algal clean up takes experience, most new folks are scared to trim and cut plants, but they grow back right away if you can grow things.

So experience, you have to start where EVERYONE else starts, without any.
You can watch others, but the before and after is fairly straight forward. 
Pull off as much as you can without harming the plants. 

Trim plants aggressively. 

Water changes, clean the tank several times a week till the new plant growth is doing well.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Got sick and tire of Elatine hydropiper being uprooted by the plecos. 

So added HC. 

Making a few minor changes today.


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## Varmint (Apr 5, 2014)

This is the first time I discovered this forum thread. All I can say is wow! How fun to watch this tank evolve into a formal garden. Just gorgeous!


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## CluelessAquarist (Apr 5, 2014)

I can honestly say this is in the top 5 most beautiful tanks I have ever seen. You really nailed it, amazing tank Tom.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I have some trims to do for a couple of plant groups.
Added the front wood on the far left, HC is growing in like mad, seems to have rooted and is much easier than E. hydropiper. 

I also added a little bit of the Hydrothrix garderni in the rear and put a Bolbitus hedge back, a few pieces of wood on the side near the smaller stump, I'll show that next week, douigna trade to get some the S. maidera back which did well in that location. The Erio setaceum is doing well where I'd wanted it in the past, so I can fuss with it again in that location. 

You try and few combinations and locations and eventually you can come to a reasonable balanced trade off. I generally try the most eclectic choice 1st, if available, or when it's available.............then revert back to what looks best and then what's just the best long term management I'm willing to deal with.


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## EwDeg (Feb 4, 2014)

Very nice tank? Love the mini pellia on the wood. What's the green stem group right behind the UG?


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## EwDeg (Feb 4, 2014)

Ha that was supposed to read "Very nice tank!"


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## danellis1229 (Jan 24, 2013)

*speechless*

all i can say is why 
what an inspiration


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I moved the downoi to the Left side rear, I think it will do well over there, I'll be bring back the Erio compressum to that location, then bring back the Sygn Madiera to the rear Right corner. 

HC is growing in really fast where the EH use to be.


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## umarnasir335 (Mar 2, 2014)

Tom, why didn't you bring back the UG instead of the HC? I thought you liked it better since it's more desirable and cost effective to grow?


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## Shawn123 (Jan 24, 2013)

umarnasir335 said:


> Tom, why didn't you bring back the UG instead of the HC? I thought you liked it better since it's more desirable and cost effective to grow?


I believe that whole strip in the middle between lud red and lud sphaerocarpa is UG but I could be wrong.


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## umarnasir335 (Mar 2, 2014)

Shawn123 said:


> I believe that whole strip in the middle between lud red and lud sphaerocarpa is UG but I could be wrong.


Yeah you're right. I dont know how I missed that giant, bright green mound...lol. Is UG harder to grow than HC? I'm thinking of trying it myself


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Many assume that UG is harder, you certainly see much less of the UG in aquascapes than HC. Many claim that UG cannot be grown at certain Temps, but that's been claimed about many plants I keep and my tanks are rather warm, the 70 Gallon is unheated, stays about 72F or so, but this is about 80-82F.

Folks that say this think it's temp, it's really CO2.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nevermind, I saw the answer on an earlier page.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)




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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

That blood vomit is starting to look thick. Nice


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Tank is a bit ratty still, it'll be another 1-2 weeks before it looks better.


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## exv152 (Jun 8, 2009)

The harlequins look amazing. Still one of my favorite shoaling fish.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I though they'd all jump out. Have not seen one on the floor yet amazingly.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

It's about time you put that Erio compressum back in there.:hihi: I really like the looks of that plant in your tank. The leaf texture adds a very nice contrast to the rest of the plants. 

I like that your daughter is photo bombing your full tank shot. Gotta love those little ones.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ua hua said:


> It's about time you put that Erio compressum back in there.:hihi: I really like the looks of that plant in your tank. The leaf texture adds a very nice contrast to the rest of the plants.
> 
> I like that your daughter is photo bombing your full tank shot. Gotta love those little ones.


She does that anytime she's awake.

I liked the look and the feel of the plant, adds a lot to that section and no one else uses it for aquascapes. It's also an easy plant to care for once you manage to get it rooted and stayed put. 

They form a lot of side shoots and in a few months, Ill have another 10 more plants to sell and promote within the hobby. It just never looked good in my 180.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)




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## aquarist (Aug 29, 2012)

Are you using a hang on over flow box? And dang that light is sexy! I wish all my bulbs were in a single fixture instead of two. Your aquascapes always make me drool, one day I hope to have something that good looking.


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## Chizpa305 (Feb 13, 2011)

Favorite tank so far in this forum... well after mine of course lol, and it's been up for some time now.


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## umarnasir335 (Mar 2, 2014)

How could this tank NOT be one of anyone's favs? 
Jaw dropping, unique hardscape - check
Color - check
Plant variety - double check
Sense of scale - check

If I could have a tank half as good as this one in my lifetime, I would be a happy camper


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## Discusdude7 (Sep 14, 2013)

umarnasir335 said:


> How could this tank NOT be one of anyone's favs?
> Jaw dropping, unique hardscape - check
> Color - check
> Plant variety - double check
> ...



+1 
Agree with everything in this post


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

this guy is always on top of the game


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

aquarist said:


> Are you using a hang on over flow box? And dang that light is sexy! I wish all my bulbs were in a single fixture instead of two. Your aquascapes always make me drool, one day I hope to have something that good looking.


Yes, I use the CPR but modify them like a 2 pipe bean animal overflow.
One standpipe is 2" tall than the other, so one runs at full siphon and the other, just barely a trickle. The ball valve that controls flow, that the return pump ball valve. I get the larger over flow volume GPH flow for the tank and flow rates I want, so I have plenty of extra wiggle room to adjust the flow this way. You can also drill another hole into a smaller overflow and add the 2nd pipe that way as well.


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## whitepapagold (Aug 19, 2010)

Down_Shift said:


> this guy is always on top of the game


Theres no question he's the best designer/aquarist on this site!

All I see when I look at this tank is tons of maintenance! Thats dedication. And its definitely paying off!

One of the few journals I always check in on!roud:


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## inthepacific (Oct 21, 2012)

you're one person who uses tonina in a nice way. i always see tonina in peoples tanks and its just one lonely stalk looking all goofy by itself. Also how is that monty carlo carpet plant? is it better than HC? i have a feeling it might be a good substitute. 
Also what ph do you keep your tank at? and have you had any trouble with any specific type of plant? do you frequent Aqua forest at all? Also what do you do in terms of algae control?


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## VGAL792 (Jun 20, 2014)

plantbrain said:


> What is the bright green stem behind UG? Thanks


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

VGAL792 said:


> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> > What is the bright green stem behind UG? Thanks
> ...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

inthepacific said:


> you're one person who uses tonina in a nice way. i always see tonina in peoples tanks and its just one lonely stalk looking all goofy by itself. Also how is that monty carlo carpet plant? is it better than HC? i have a feeling it might be a good substitute.
> Also what ph do you keep your tank at? and have you had any trouble with any specific type of plant? do you frequent Aqua forest at all? Also what do you do in terms of algae control?


Collectors are not scapers

MC is a nice carpet plant, I have HC also. They both have their own uses. MC is easier for most people I would say.

pH really does not matter.

Not found any plant species I cannot grow.

I know Steve and George, and their mother. 

Not much, I focus on plants. Algae is a minor thing if ever an issue.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Glad you included HC Cuba, one of my favourite plant. Do you usually work with the emmersed form or does it not matter? 

Since the majority of plants are shipped emmersed, I'm wondering if people would find it easier to use plants with aquatic leafs already formed. 

Its strange because HC Cuba doesn't mind adapting to water, while Glosso I find is easier to use the emmersed form and have it adapt by itself, from my experiences anyways.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Some plants do better, most do well emergent to submersed. 

HC does not matter.


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## jimmyjam (Dec 25, 2008)

hey tom, im just checking some of your bonsai pics out. Are they all in a greenhouse or just the backyard?


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## chris.rivera3 (Apr 15, 2008)

Current picture??


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I'll put some more up later on. I'll be redoing things next week. New soil, new hardscape etc.


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## BraveBuc (Nov 8, 2012)

Very nice.

Are you trying something other than ADA AS or just refreshing?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I deep vacuuming the ADA AS, then reuse. But.....I'll change this time over to the new stuff. After 2-3 years..........it's pretty fried in this tank, other tanks, might get more mileage etc. But uprooting and trimming often, not so much.


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