# LED vs. T5 HO



## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

After just few weeks using Cree LEDs...I don't think I'd go back to tubes.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

What are the dimensions of the tank this will be used on?


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## samamorgan (Dec 31, 2011)

doc bonsai said:


> Marineland Reef Capable LED system. I have a friend who has this and it's about 10k kelvin so he gets thread algae a bit, but his plants are doing great.
> 
> They're both about the same price, but the long term costs of the LED would be less I think because of the life span. Thoughts?


The reef capable is only giving him algae because of an imbalance, not because the light is 10k. You have to play with light height a little to combat algae on any fixture, unless it happens to be perfect the first time around.

For the price of that reef capable setup i'm willing to bet you can put together a more modular system for a better price, or DIY it for maybe half the cost. I know you said you're tired of DIY but with LEDs it's actually pretty easy. Just some LEDs wired in series thermopasted to a heatsink, powered by a driver.

But like Hoppy said, tank dimensions?


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## doc bonsai (Nov 4, 2011)

It's 48 long, 12 wide, and 18 high.


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## doc bonsai (Nov 4, 2011)

samamorgan said:


> For the price of that reef capable setup i'm willing to bet you can put together a more modular system for a better price, or DIY it for maybe half the cost. I know you said you're tired of DIY but with LEDs it's actually pretty easy. Just some LEDs wired in series thermopasted to a heatsink, powered by a driver.
> 
> But like Hoppy said, tank dimensions?


The other trick is that I'm now without a light until I can order/build something. I just got my tank planted not too long ago and things are growing pretty nicely. I don't want to have everything die while I'm getting around to DIY. For me it's not as much about cost as it is about time, so I really just am trying to figure out the system that will be best.


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## samamorgan (Dec 31, 2011)

doc bonsai said:


> It's 48 long, 12 wide, and 18 high.


Marineland is too bright for you, you would want to hang it another 8-10" above your tank at least. You would get ~110 par with a Marineland reef capable at 18"

I would recommend two of these: http://www.ecoxotic.com/aquarium-led-lights/stunner-led-strips/stunner-led-strips-24-watt.html

Also, if the marineland is dimmable, or you can figure out a way to dim it, that would be a nice option.


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## doc bonsai (Nov 4, 2011)

The reviews for the LED light mention that it lights a thin strip, but my friend who has it also has a 12 inch wide tank and it seems to do great with his.


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## doc bonsai (Nov 4, 2011)

samamorgan said:


> Marineland is too bright for you, you would want to hang it another 8-10" above your tank at least. You would get ~110 par with a Marineland reef capable at 18"


I was cautious about too much light with my current setup, but I think light has been by far the limiting factor for growth, so I'd like to step it up. Your concern of too much light would be in terms of algae? My buddy's tank seems to be doing pretty well.


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## samamorgan (Dec 31, 2011)

doc bonsai said:


> I was cautious about too much light with my current setup, but I think light has been by far the limiting factor for growth, so I'd like to step it up. Your concern of too much light would be in terms of algae? My buddy's tank seems to be doing pretty well.


It's called reef capable for a reason. Puts off enough light to grow high light corals. Even the lowest light corals demand more light than our highest light plants. If you put a reef capable over your tank at 18" depth you would see uncontrollable algae. 50-60 par should be plenty at substrate level for anything you could ever want to grow, in any configuration. Above that and you get imbalances.


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## doc bonsai (Nov 4, 2011)

samamorgan said:


> It's called reef capable for a reason. Puts off enough light to grow high light corals. Even the lowest light corals demand more light than our highest light plants. If you put a reef capable over your tank at 18" depth you would see uncontrollable algae. 50-60 par should be plenty at substrate level for anything you could ever want to grow, in any configuration. Above that and you get imbalances.


Well, as I mentioned before, that's not actually the case. My friend has a reef capable light immediately over his 18" deep tank and he does not have "uncontrollable algae". He does have some thread algae in his hairgrass, but it's not too bad. I've been looking at the MarineLand site and it has PAR numbers different from your sticky on this forum, by the way. It has 130 and 64 at 12" and 24" respectively which is quite a bit less than you've designated. I do appreciate your post, by the way. Thanks for doing that.


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## samamorgan (Dec 31, 2011)

doc bonsai said:


> Well, as I mentioned before, that's not actually the case. My friend has a reef capable light immediately over his 18" deep tank and he does not have "uncontrollable algae". He does have some thread algae in his hairgrass, but it's not too bad. I've been looking at the MarineLand site and it has PAR numbers different from your sticky on this forum, by the way. It has 130 and 64 at 12" and 24" respectively which is quite a bit less than you've designated. I do appreciate your post, by the way. Thanks for doing that.


Look at the source link. Real world tests > manufacturer numbers.


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## pandacory (Apr 18, 2011)

Sounds like you're pretty set on the marineland.

I have a 24" version of the aquaticlife that I had running on a 29g high tech. In the three months I had it running before I had to break everything down to move, my plants exploded. At first I thought the 6000k bulbs they use looked a little greenish, coming from the 5000k bulbs I was using, but honestly, combined with their rosette, I've never seen stronger yellows and oranges in my German RAM or turqoise rainbow. The breeding colors of the fishes courtship rituals and the dark crimson reds of the tiger lotus look incredible under the stock bulbs. Love the moonlights and the noon burst all on one timer and one cord. Don't count on the leds for shimmer, they're just overpowered by the t5s.

Sadly now it sits in a box since the move, and since I got a tax bill instead of a return it is likely that it will sit unused long enough to justify selling it. FYI it was suspended prob 12" above the tank, and by the time I packed it up I was still gradually lowering it and extending the photoperiod.

To me, the biggest drawback to the marineland is that you have to be there to switch the moonlight on, and there is no dawn/dusk. For that fixture, I would pay another 50$ if it had the timer functions my aquaticlife has.

Good luck! Sorry to hear about your project. I have my own that is throwing me a few curveballs, so I know how that goes.

Have fun!


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## doc bonsai (Nov 4, 2011)

You didn't have much trouble with algae?

I favor the idea of LEDs but I have a nagging feeling about the Kelvin promoting algae for some reason.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

doc bonsai said:


> You didn't have much trouble with algae?
> 
> I favor the idea of LEDs but I have a nagging feeling about the Kelvin promoting algae for some reason.


Algae problems are primarily the result of issues OTHER than slight spectrum imbalance. 

Not saying that it might not be small factor but there are controllable factors that have a far bigger influence (total light intensity, photo period, nutrient imbalances, etc.).

Rapid plant growth seems to be the best algae deterent so if you are avoiding light and nutrient imbalances while still getting heavy plant growth the algae won't have the resources it needs to grow.


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

I have been using a popular LED fixture up against ahsupply T5HOs and the LEDs do not grow plants as well. No argument should be made in their defense. Statistics vs experience. Specific nanometers are not as beneficial for healthy plant growth. And other LED fixtures that may be capable are too expensive.


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## jrman83 (Nov 22, 2010)

DaveFish said:


> I have been using a popular LED fixture up against ahsupply T5HOs and the LEDs do not grow plants as well. No argument should be made in their defense. Statistics vs experience. Specific nanometers are not as beneficial for healthy plant growth. And other LED fixtures that may be capable are too expensive.


Funny, I just replaced most all of my T5HO with LED and I grow plants better now. You can't make blanket statements like that. Now comparatively the two fixtures you own where one outperforms the other I would say that you may not be making a fair "equal" assumption. I think your T5HO setup probably puts out more PAR than your LED setup. But, it doesn't mean that T5HO doesn't match up against LEDs or vice versa. You have to make an apples to apples comparison.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

DaveFish said:


> I have been using a popular LED fixture up against ahsupply T5HOs and the LEDs do not grow plants as well. No argument should be made in their defense. Statistics vs experience. Specific nanometers are not as beneficial for healthy plant growth. And other LED fixtures that may be capable are too expensive.


Plants don't care where they get their photons from and some light wavelengths are more reactive. That is unarguable..


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

I would say go with T5's because I've never used led and dave is boss.


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

DogFish said:


> After just few weeks using Cree LEDs...I don't think I'd go back to tubes.


exactly. once you go LED, you never change back.
i also run evilBuy CREE leds on all my tanks. fantastic bang for the buck




DaveFish said:


> I have been using a popular LED fixture up against ahsupply T5HOs and the LEDs do not grow plants as well. No argument should be made in their defense. Statistics vs experience. Specific nanometers are not as beneficial for healthy plant growth. And other LED fixtures that may be capable are too expensive.


im sure your led setup was like 1/3 wattage of what you had in T5's. thats just not fair.


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

jrman83 said:


> Funny, I just replaced most all of my T5HO with LED and I grow plants better now. You can't make blanket statements like that. Now comparatively the two fixtures you own where one outperforms the other I would say that you may not be making a fair "equal" assumption. I think your T5HO setup probably puts out more PAR than your LED setup. But, it doesn't mean that T5HO doesn't match up against LEDs or vice versa. You have to make an apples to apples comparison.


Statistically the LEDs are putting out way more PAR. Only problem is they peak in one specific spot on the visible light spectrum. It's like saying taking concentrated vitamins of only one type is healthier for you than eating raw whole vegetables. As I stated I am sure some higher end LED fixtures may be capable, but they are too expensive, for me. I can grow plants with the LED fixtures, but I have noticed way better growth with my T5HOs, so yes I am comparing what I would see as apples to overly priced oranges. I just got done reading a very complex book about anthocyanin and pigment production in plant cells, it was way over my head and extremely complex. The information within and the tests conducted are Leading me to believe that targeting and only emitting, what some "expert" says, are the most important wavelengths for photosynthesis aren't going to be the cure, but the cancer. I could be way off, but two scapes using T5HOs and two scapes using these specific LEDs and similar plants in each scape has made me regret buying the fixtures. I would like to see what hardcore botanists have to say not light experts. Because my experiences differ from yours doesn't make them false. Maybe you're better at growing plants now, maybe your tanks are smaller, maybe your definition of good growth is different than mine. I have multiple tanks running at the same time and one grows plants better and there are no differences in husbandry care or water parameters. I am going to sell my LEDs and go back to T5HOs and I plan on noticeably better growth within a few weeks, I will keep you posted. Oh and I am not alone in this thought, "Ebi" and "Tom Barr" both use T5HOs on their dutch tanks because of these very reasons. Even Amano says LEDs are for smaller tanks and still uses Halide bulbs on ALL of his big tanks. All LED fixtures IMO are consumer prototypes.


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> Plants don't care where they get their photons from and some light wavelengths are more reactive. That is unarguable..


Yeah we know. We have all seen that chart about ten thousand times.
And LEDs do not give off as many wavelengths and plants produce way more than two different pigments. Plants use an array of wavelengths. Isolating specific wavelengths isn't as efficient as providing dozens and dozens of wavelengths. Pigment production in plant cells is extremely complex and way over my head, but it's comparable to saying that you only need the essentials to survive so I am going to feed you only specific isolated vitamins and say that is healthier than eating raw whole vegetables. Plants don't use only a few peaks of light. They can get by, but not thrive on this diet. I am sure some high end LEDs give off enough radiation to get the job done. I would like to see what hardcore botanists have to say. After reading a book on anthocyanin and pigment production and realizing how complex it is I am very skeptical of how efficient LEDs really are and my scapes are the reason why I am starting to think this. I guess I could buy more expensive LEDs to get the job done, but don't have the cash for it. Yes I compared apples to overly priced oranges. I am going to sell my LEDs and go back to T5HOs and I plan on noticeably better growth within a few weeks, I will keep you posted. Oh and I am not alone in this thought, "Ebi" and "Tom Barr" both use T5HOs on their dutch tanks because of these very reasons. Even Amano says LEDs are for smaller tanks and still uses Halide bulbs on ALL of his big tanks. All LED fixtures IMO are consumer prototypes.


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

Dave, you really need to check fluorescent lamp spectrum out. 
and while at it, compare it to combined spectrum of
cool white + deep red LEDs
 

major drawback for LEDs is they need cooling to operate. that makes them sort of unusable on big aquariums where massive power is disipated in light fixture.
another 'con' could be all the manufacters tend to push profit at enormous rates for led fixtures


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

DaveFish said:


> . I would like to see what hardcore botanists have to say. After reading a book on anthocyanin and pigment production and realizing how complex it is I am very skeptical of how efficient LEDs really are and my scapes are the reason why I am starting to think this. I guess I could buy more expensive LEDs to get the job done, but don't have the cash for it. Yes I compared apples to overly priced oranges. I am going to sell my LEDs and go back to T5HOs and I plan on noticeably better growth within a few weeks, I will keep you posted. Oh and I am not alone in this thought, "Ebi" and "Tom Barr" both use T5HOs on their dutch tanks because of these very reasons. Even Amano says LEDs are for smaller tanks and still uses Halide bulbs on ALL of his big tanks. All LED fixtures IMO are consumer prototypes.


you have some valid points but keep this in mind:
your t5's are NOT full spectrum, at least any more than "white" LED's..Only real common "full spectrum" are MH + HPS....and you need 100's of Watts due to spectral inefficiencies .


> Combination HPS/MH lamps combine a metal halide bulb and a high pressure sodium bulb in the same reflector, either with a single integrated ballast assembly or two separate ballast assemblies. The combination of blue metal halide light and red high pressure sodium light creates an ideal spectral blend and extremely high outputs.


In a sense this "blows away" your t5's...... 
T5's for "show" have nothing to do w/ "health" as I showed you w/ Mr. Barr's quote:

"HARD CORE" botanists are growing plants just fine under LED's but yes.. it is an evolving science as it always was. LED's, by their punctated spectral nature, are advancing that..
LED white:








T5 "white"









Of course you can use multiple color T5's as you can LED's..
PLENTY of "science" w/ LED's like this, and as I discussed before and was thought in error by some..


> A thorough understanding of this balance
> is essential to the development of LED
> light sources for plant growth and development.
> Overall, the low blue light from warm
> ...


http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/pub__4124704.pdf
THAT is mostly a quality approach..



> Light-emitting diodes (LEDs) have tremendous potential as supplemental or sole-source lighting systems for crop production both on and off earth. Their small size, durability, long operating lifetime, wavelength specificity, relatively cool emitting surfaces, and linear photon output with electrical input current make these solid-state light sources ideal for use in plant lighting designs.


http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/7/1951.full
Your bucking reality here a bit.

As to costs.. well IF I wanted "monetary efficiency" I'd not have ANY hobbies..
From medicine, to energy, to crops, to political systems .. we are ALL guinea pigs.. 

And think of the "evolution" of TV's.. from BW tiny vacuum tubes to massive LED LCD panels and beyond.. This is really no different but at a smaller scale due to supply demand curves..
Oh and using t5's for "show" is not related to "growth" per se.. but to.............. show............

Oh and on an "industrial scale" there will be more $'s thrown in improving LED's on all fronts than improving T5's et. al.. 
This is also no different than CRT vs flat panel.. But YES there are always "tradeoffs'' for awhile. Wasn't too long ago where no self respecting graphic artist would be caught dead w/ a LCD display.. Times change as does tech.

another minor point is this type of conversation is hopefully steering both people and industry to improve.. 
Proof of that is the industry addition of more "colors" in their fixtures and the addition of timers/dimmers.. 
how long did it take to get even simple dimming as a cheapish addition to t5's..???
Of course if you like "static" tubes are a way to go.. but as to dynamic tanks.. well LED's can't be beat..yea you may consider it "fluff".. by that is what makes the world so enjoyable.. our differences..


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

One of the most "honest" opinions I've ever read.. unfortunately it doesn't really include t5's overall AND it involves corals but:
http://reefbuilders.com/2013/04/22/bridging-revising-metal-halides-time-leds/

as to just "growing plants" well here is a slightly embarassing 20gal lit by one of those small Finnex clip on's w/ the 660nm red.. Moss, water wysteria, rotala (hard to see in the shadows and grows really slow) ect. "grow" .. you can see the poor light placement and the wysteria has it's low light leaf form on the lower part but the point is.. They grow...  w a 5w LED..









(note to self.. do something about that )


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