# What confuses me about Tom Barr method --



## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

I've read a lot on Tom Barr's Estimative Index.

I am starting to dose and do have some test kits to help me along to judge uptake & dosing, but Tom's method of not using test kits is appealing in its own way and I can see it being a handy approach once I get started.

What confuses me is the "resetting" of the tank because I've seen differing interpretations of this. To quote Tom:

"So the aquarist doses only 3 things really, KNO3, KH2PO4 on the day of the water change, then every other day there after; and traces on the off days till the next week rolls around. Do a 50-70% water change, dose the macro nutrients back*, add the traces the following day and repeat. "

*? Let's use NO3 as an example. Day One, I understand that you kick off your tank with a 100% full dose (to reach your desired peak ppm), so let's say the full dosage is 1/2 TSP NO3 for the tank. Then, every other day, I would top off the NO3 dosage to make up for plant uptake (which may or may not be another 100% dosage. usually it's less), let's say I put in 1/4 TSP NO3 on those days. Then, at week's end I do a 50% water change. So, after doing the 50% water change, do I dose only 50% NO3 to make up for the 50% water I removed (1/4 TSP NO3) OR do I dose 1/2 TSP NO3 for 100% of the tank again? What about for other nutrients like Potassium, which I heard you would only dose for the 50% water change, not the whole tank.


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

motifone said:


> I've read a lot on Tom Barr's Estimative Index.
> 
> I am starting to dose and do have some test kits to help me along to judge uptake & dosing, but Tom's method of not using test kits is appealing in its own way and I can see it being a handy approach once I get started.
> 
> ...



That's what I do and I've had great success with it for the past 3+ weeks. My algae "problem" is now virtually non-existent...I can see a tiny bit if I look really hard, my otos are fat and my shrimp are constantly poking at something. I did have a minor problem with BBA and GSA, but that was cured almost instantly (3-4 days) with a little pruning, then bumping up my CO2 and more phosphate. 

Tom does mention to add potassium on your re-set days...its just often not mentioned...basically only your NPK. Another thing is if you're adding KNO3 you're adding probably enough K in there anyways. 

My dosing schedule is what you have pretty much hashed out. I'll dose 1/2 tea KNO3, 1 ppm PO4 and about 5 ml seachem potassium (until it runs out). Then the next day, 10 ml of plantex + 1-2 ml of fluorish iron. THEN, on Tuesday I'll only add 1/4 tea of KNO3, 2 ml of potassium, BUT 1 ppm phosphate...I bumped that up to get rid of my GSA...and no problems so far (knock on wood). 

By the ways, I'll drain about 50-60% of my tank to re-set.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Everyone is doing the dosing a little differently, Tom Barrs approach simplifies things and works, but...

Before you start to use it, IMO you need to figure out what your Nitrate and Phosphate levels are, and how much your tank is using up in how many days.

I know, according to Tom testkits are not needed, and that is true if you have grown water plants for several years and know all the symptoms of nutrient deficiencies. But if you are starting out it is definitely beneficial to have an overall idea of how much nutrients are in your tapwater, how much the tank has after dosing, and how many days it takes to remove them from the water column.

Only then you can trust the number of teaspoons that you are adding is close to what you want to get, and you won't turn your tank brackish. :fish: 

Once you have gone through one or two NO3 testkits and maybe one PO4 testkit you have a better understanding of the dynamics of nutrient uptake.

That's what I think at least :wink:


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Georgiadawgger

Thanks for sharing your dosing numbers. I need to look up my dosing plan and post it tonight, see what you think.

To clarify though, after you change the 50-60% of water though to reset, do you

a) dose the tank at 100% full dose again? In your case, 1/2 TSP KNO3.

or,

b) do you dose only for the 50% water you just replaced? In your case, 50% of 1/2 TSP, so only 1/4 TSP?

thanks. that's the part that confuses me, if reset implies a 100% or 50% dose on water change day.

(PS... in your routine, do you repeat Monday's Plantex/Flourish regiment on Wednesday?)


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> Everyone is doing the dosing a little differently, Tom Barrs approach simplifies things and works, but...
> 
> Before you start to use it, IMO you need to figure out what your Nitrate and Phosphate levels are, and how much your tank is using up in how many days.
> 
> ...


Very true...very true indeed. Especially about what type of plants are in there and how fast they seem to take up nutrients. One of the things I noticed was after a major algae pruning a while back, and some replanting of new species my nitrate uptake changed significantly. I just re-did my riccia rocks and planted some glosso and H. micranthemoides so I anticipate my nitrate uptake will increase in the upcoming weeks. The interesting thing I've noticed is no matter what my nitrates seem relatively stable around 20 and my phosphates around 2. I think I've killed my fair share of test kits and that drove me nuts!! :tongue:


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

wasserpest,

agreed! I have a Lamotte nitrate kit and Red Sea Phosphate.

I don't think I will go full throttle with the Estimative Index route until I can pretty much "predict" what the test kits will tell me about my water before I read them.

I agree the Estimative Index is a great tool, but it's a tool that's really about intiution, knowing your plants, knowing what's right & wrong -- and that only comes with time & experience.

However, there are a few things I can learn early on from the Etimative Index, which is don't be shy with the Co2 and don't be shy dosing nutrients once regarded as no-no's (eg. phosphate)


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

motifone said:


> wasserpest,
> 
> agreed! I have a Lamotte nitrate kit and Red Sea Phosphate.
> 
> ...



I do not think it takes experience per se. The how is very easy.
Every method can suggest watching the plants, knowing what's right/wriong, simply feeling comfortable and somewhat in control of things.

Algae makes folks feel totally out of control and really pisses some off a great deal.

Testing and getting exepience with that is not a goal many come into this hobby aspiring to do.

I suggest for your 50 gal tank:
Do 50-60% weekly water change usin tap water, the good old LA tap water.

After:

Add 1/2 teaspoon KNO3
1/8" teaspoon of KH2PO4

next day add 10 mls of Trace

Wait one day

Add KNO3 and KH2PO4 again, same amount.

Next day add 10 mls of Traces 

Wait a day

Add KNO3/KH2PO4 again

Add traces the next day, 

Do water change and repeat.

The only thing this requires: good stable CO2 during the lighting peroid.

Be agressive with the algae and pruning off any infected parts, clean glass, equipment for a week or two real good.

By this point, things should be doing very well.
But make sure the CO2 is 30ppm and the Riccia/plants etc are pearling 1/2 way through the day.

This routine will ensure no deficiency with the nutrients, the CO2 is all that's left and routine filter maintenance etc.

The large weekly water changes prevent build up no matter what dosing errors you might do.

Later as you gain experience, you can add more fish, reduce the KNO3 down some, etc, try different plants, aquascaping..

Very few people get into this hobby to test and monitor nutrient levels or grow algae.

Most get into to it to grow plants and aquascape and garden. That's the experinece you desire and need.

So that should be the focus. That's all this method does in a simple manner.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## ThomE (Aug 26, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Algae makes folks feel totally out of control and really pisses some off a great deal.


isn't that the damn !)@(@*#&$&% Truth


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Groovy,

Thanks, Thom. That gives me a starting point at least and clarifies some things.

1) I've bumped my C02 to 25-30ppm. Pearling is generous.
2) I'll be sure to clean filter once a month (?)
3) My 96w of AH Supply compact flourescent light should get me off on right foot.

I only have 2 follow up questions:

1) I'm using Flourish Traces and Flourish Iron for now (will move on to CSM+B once I finish the Flourish bottles). Shall I try 10ml of Flourish Traces AND 10ml of Flourish Iron on "trace dosing days" and see how that goes? Is your 10ml amount based on CSM+B? CSM+B with Iron added?

2) There was an extra day (more than a week) in the routine you outlined for my 50g, so are you recommending go a little longer than a week before water change. Per your schedule:

Saturday - 50-60% H20 Change, dose macros 1/2 TSP KNO3 & 1/8 TSP KH2PO4

Sunday - Dose 10mls Traces

Monday - Wait one day

Tuesday - Add KNO3 and KH2PO4 again, same amount

Wednesday - Add 10mls Traces

Thursday - Wait a day

Friday - Add KNO3 and KH2PO4 again, same amount

Saturday - Add 10mls Traces

Sunday - 50-60% H20 Change, dose macros 1/2 TSP KNO3 & 1/8 TSP KH2PO4


Each week things get moved up one day. I'm sure it's flexible, I'm sure I could just do the water change on Saturday and just start over there, but I just want to know if I'm following this. 

Thanks as always
Steve


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

1-2ml Iron.. not 10....you can either up it or not as time progress's to your tanks need's.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The extra day assume you dose on the water change day.

I never dose traces before water change day.

You can over load the macro nutrients, the KNO3/KH2PO4 and dose 2-3x the notrmal amount later after 2-3 weeks of this routine to really max the plants out, you do this 12 hours before a water change. Mega dosing.
It takes a few weeks for the plants to use to this fattening up and rich nutrient mix. Then you can mess with things and not worry becuase you'll do a big water change in 1/2 day.

I do not dose traces then because they cost more than the macro nutrients.

I do not dose Fe and seperately, I use only Flourish or TMG or CMS+B.
There's plenty of Fe in all these.

Waiting a day and doing an 8 or 9 day dosing rotuine will work, some extend it out to two weeks if they have lower lighting and other things.

I still suggest no less than 30% ever, and 50% does not take that much longer.

Weekly is good but if for some reason your day routines work better on an 8 day thing, go for it.

Some folks do 2x water changes each week and dose on that day macros and the next day the traces and that's it.

There's many routines that you can do that are slight variations but they do the same thing pretty much.

If any of you know how I figured a lot of this stuff out about algae, I did much of ther same things the rest of you did, suffered but then there was no web then either.

But eventually I figured out I was doing much better than other folks and started helping them. Over time and with some basic science, you can figure out a lot.

I chased things with test kits, test kits had issues, 300-400$ price tags as well for the ones I wanted. I got them anyway. 

So this was a simpler method that folks can do easily and if your plants are looking oogd and pearling, then it must be doing the right thing.

That's the goal, growing the weeds.
If something does seem right there, check things, namely CO2, do a water changes and re set the tank.

That's a simple routine if something appears wrong.

If you let things go, then you'll take longer to reset the tank and algae might get in there and then you have to prune more and wait for the plants to grow back out.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Tom

Final question, taking into account your advice, what do you think of this revised schedule for my 50g? My goal is to have a schedule that recycles on the same day (Saturday) every week, because that is when I will have time to do the %50 water change.

Here it is? Any changes?


Saturday - 50-60% H20 Change, dose macros 1/2 TSP KNO3 & 1/8 TSP KH2PO4

Sunday - Dose 10mls Traces (either Flourish or CSM+B)

Monday - Add 1/2 KNO3 and 1/8 KH2PO4

Wednesday - Dose 10mls Traces (either Flourish or CSM+B)

Thursday - Add 1/2 KNO3 and 1/8 KH2PO4

Friday - No dosing, take day off, plus "don't dose expensive traces day before a water change".

Saturday - 50-60% H20 Change, dose macros 1/2 TSP KNO3 & 1/8 TSP KH2PO4


I removed the "wait a days" because those days would always push the schedule forward a day each week, because it wasn't a 7 day schedule.

If all looks good, I'll try it out!
steve


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

With your C02 dialed in correctly, that schedule should kick your tank into high gear roud:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Ditto, you can later see about reducing the KNO3 dosing and increasing the fish food.
Wait to get a feel for it though.

You'll never go below 1/4 teaspoon dosing rates though I think for KNO3.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## TeeItUp (Mar 18, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> I never dose traces before water change day.
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


First off Tom I am a huge fan of your Estimative Index dosing. I have been doing it now for some 6 months and it works people. Would you please explain the not dosing traces before water change day because the above dosing explanation you gave does just that.


plantbrain said:


> Add KNO3/KH2PO4 again
> 
> Add traces the next day,
> 
> Do water change and repeat.


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## Gomer (Aug 14, 2003)

I didn't read through most of this thread (have to go to work in a few  )

...but with regards to resetting:

Suppose you dose 10ppm of NO3 total to a tank. Assume you do a 50% weekly water change. If you do the math, you find out that:

If you assume that NONE of it is used up, you can build up a maxiumum of 20 PPM

If you assume that 25%of it is used up, you can build up a maxiumum of 16 PPM

If you assume that 50%of it is used up, you can build up a maxiumum of 13.3 PPM

If you assume that 75%of it is used up, you can build up a maxiumum of 11.4 PPM

Hope that helps!


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

thanks, guys, I'll try my routine.

TeeItUp,

Ya, I was wondering that as well (about traces before water change day)... which is why I proposed the revised scheudle. 

Gomer,

I THINK I get what you are saying. Lemme see, as you say:

"If you assume that 50% of it is used up, you can build up a maxiumum of 13.3 PPM"

OK, so 50% of 10ppm was used up, that leaves 5ppm in the tank. I do a 50% water change, so that halves the 5pmm to 2.5ppm, then I add 10ppm, which gives me 12.5 How did you get 13.3?


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

motifone said:


> OK, so 50% of 10ppm was used up, that leaves 5ppm in the tank. I do a 50% water change, so that halves the 5pmm to 2.5ppm, then I add 10ppm, which gives me 12.5 How did you get 13.3?


13.3 is the LIMIT(upper bound) you will reach after infinite number of water changes, not after ONE water change. So now you can sleep tight knowing the NO3 will not go to infinity :tongue:


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

W?£fÔÐxXx & Tom

thanks. I'll give my schedule a try then.

W?£fÔÐxXx,

One question about dosing. You mentioned dose only 1-2ml Iron. Right now, I am using Flourish Iron. On the bottle it says, "Use 1 capful (5ml) for each 50g or as required to maintain about 0.10mg/L iron."

If I got it right, 1 mg/L = 1 ppm... and we want about, what?, 0.1 - 0.3 ppm in the tank as a target level.

So, reading the Flourish instructions, 5ml yields about .10mg/L (1ppm). Yet you recommended trying more like 1-2ml dosing.

Is my math right? Is your recommendation based on Flourish Iron? Is your recommendation 1-2ml because I'll also be dosing other traces which contain iron and I need to consider the sum of iron dosed?

Not that I doubt ya, just curious! 

OH, and lastly just to make sure -- does the recommendation of 10mL on my 50g every other day for traces hold for both Plantex CSM and Flourish Trace? I plan on moving over to CSM, but right now I have Flourish, which recommends 1 capful (5ml) for every 60g, that why I was wondering about the 10ml remark.

Sorry to nitpick, just want to clarify


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

motifone said:


> Wö£fëñxXx & Tom
> 
> thanks. I'll give my schedule a try then.
> 
> ...



I made that recommendation based on your setup
1) 50g w96watt fixture.. that's not alot of light for the amount of iron your wanting to dose.
2)You just started a regime with KN03/KH2P04 <I would recommend getting some K2S04 & CSM+B I prefer CSM+B over flourish myself, its just smarter, no matter how much money you make!>
3)Your dosing Flourish Trace? Regular Flourish would be better.
4)10ml Iron 3x a week is an over abundance & just wasteful  <All this is based on what I was reading from your post & my experience with power tanks> for whatever that's worth.. lol
Iron will definitly add a nice sparkle to the tank and bring out some unbelievable colors, but it has to be in balance with the other fert's
You can dose more or less based on your plant mass, start slow with iron work that in according to what you "see" or what the plant's are telling you! Start devolping you skill on reading the plant's more so than a target range, I tried the target range for KN03/P04/Iron, it did not work for me.
I use Iron Chelate & CSM+B w/Flourite, all containting Fe, 
The most I have dose'd was 30ml Chelate a week, in my 46 w/4.2wpg, that was nut's but I was playing.
Plant response and color is fantastic dosing 4 to 8ml a week,I don't think the plants could take up any more. <Mind you, this is me using CSM+B, Iron Chelate & Flourite.
30ml for a 50 is just not necessary, but that's your call bro :wink: 

I have also used Flourish iron, but it has been along time.

Look at it this way, when you dose KN03/KH2P04/K2S04/Trace with a balance of light/C02, and Flourite, Iron is not a necessity, it's a luxury CSM+B, Flourish+Flourite all have iron.

And Lastly: Yes 10ml CSM or Flourish but make sure your C02 is dialed in at 30 or as close as possible.

I don't think Tom even dose's Iron, but he would know that better than I.


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Yo Craig

Thanks for the follow up. I think with your help, Tom's and everyone else over the past month I am ready to start some serious dosing 

Silly me, I bought Flourish and Flourish Iron before the folks on here schooled me about Greg Watson  I have since bought the Greg Watson line: KN03, KH2P04, K2S04 & CSM+B. So, for starters, I will use up my Flourish goodies along with my Greg Watson Macros, then move completely to Watson's items.

Thanks for all the Iron tips. I am going to dose light and go from there!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Gomer said:


> I didn't read through most of this thread (have to go to work in a few  )
> 
> ...but with regards to resetting:
> 
> ...


You Wilely chemist you!
hehe

I can post a math explaination, I like Gomer's write up better, it shows a variety of routines their effects.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

"Dale wrote: 
.....Even with 50 % weekly water changes and assuming no plant up-take (bad assumption I know), the nutrient levels would continue to rise in the tank......... 

The nutrient level does not build up indefinitely. Assuming you add nitrate to initially give a value of 10 ppm, do a 50% water change, then add the same amount of nitrate, and that the plants don't remove any, the level in the tank will level off at 20 ppm. If you do as above, but with 75% water changes, the content will level off at 13.333 ppm. With 25% water changes you level off at 40 ppm. The general formula appears to be that you level off at the initial concentration times 1/(% water change)



I have a quick bit of iteration in Mathcad and the eventual level of nutrient in a tank, given infinite
water changes, and assuming no plant uptake, does seem to be given by:


nutrient level added
______________________________
0.01 x percentage water change


(thats nutrient level divided by (0.01 times the percentage water change)).

The frequency of your changes is irrelevant to the final level of nutrient you will have AFTER each change
and fertilisation, but to avoid spikes change water regularly.

For example, if you do 50% water changes, and add 10mg after each change, then the eventual level will be 10/
(0.01*50), which is equal to 10/(0.05), which is 20mg.

Also, if you change less than 50% of your water, there is still a limit. For example, with 10mg of nutrient
and 25% water changes, it is 40mg in your tank at most (after a change).

I do not know how this is affected by a tank producing or removing a nutrient (e.g. fish make NH3, plants
take away NO3).

To avoid the slow gradual increase of NO3 in a new tank, would it not therefore be sensible to add the
maximum expected level as an initial dose, and then add the top up dose after this?

If anybody has any estimates of nutrient uptake/production rates as a function of concentration or similar, for non-planted/planted tanks, I could work out some figures (and maybe prove the Tom Barr 50% regime?)
--
Andrew McLeod
thefish at theabyssalplain_freeserve.co.uk"


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

actually, one more thing is confusing me.

The recommendation of "1/8 TSP KH2PO4" for my 50 g.

Plugging 1/8 TSP (.125 TSP) into the Chuck Gadd dosing calculator (with "amount of water to mix" set at 1ml for dry dosing), it shows that this will add 2.21 ppm phosphate to my tank.

What am I missing? I thought the target level of P04 was .5-1ppm in a tank. Is this part of the method -- to "overdose" phosphates? I assume we are taking dry dosing here with the phosphate like the nitrate.

(ps - thanks for the previous math clarification)


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I tend to give conservative numbers and larger dosing rec's.
The reason is that many use other methods and do not have all their other parameters lined up. Many don't have enough CO2 etc......

The amount of variation between 1/8 and 1/16 is substantial as well.
2.0ppm of PO4 does not cause a problem if you have good NO3, CO2 and trace dosings etc... 



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Myers (Sep 24, 2004)

nitrates .05
phosphates 1.0
kh 4
gh 18
ph 6.8
DIY CO2 4 x 2ltr bottles = 19ppm


So far i have been having great luck using this style of dosing but i cant get my co2 up higher then this... Any ideas how to pump it up more?


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Myers said:


> nitrates .05
> phosphates 1.0
> kh 4
> gh 18
> ...


Probably not what you want to hear, but go pressurized.. another dis-advantage of DIY C02...


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## Myers (Sep 24, 2004)

I thought that would be the answer...Now i just have to wait for the IRS to send my money back to me


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

plantbrain said:


> The nutrient level does not build up indefinitely.


Heh, absolutely right, much in the same way as with drugs, if we take one tablet a day, assuming elimination is constant, the level will not continue to rise, but will eventually stabilize, the time to do so being dependant on the drug's half life within a given individual. I am supposed to know all the equations to work all this out. But they escape me at the present time. :icon_frow 



plantbrain said:


> To avoid the slow gradual increase of NO3 in a new tank, would it not therefore be sensible to add the maximum expected level as an initial dose, and then add the top up dose after this?


This seems very sensible indeed, again much in the same way that a loading dose of a drug may be given to achieve it's therapeutic effect in a more timely fashion. But hey, aside from my mumbojumbo, I am using the therapeutic index method, and it is working for me. 'Nuff said.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Myers said:


> I thought that would be the answer...Now i just have to wait for the IRS to send my money back to me


Best dinero you will spend. Reg= 45-80$es
Tanks = 40-80$es
Needle valves= 11-40$ea.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Myers (Sep 24, 2004)

Should i add K2SO4 when i dose macros or is there enough in the KNO3?


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Ya you can add a little, don't wait till your plant's are showing sign's of deficiency.


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## Gill Man (Feb 5, 2005)

On a side note, what would people recommend if one was to take off on a vacation for two weeks and you just got your routine down and tank in good shape? Would you use a drip and try to maintain some nutrient level for that period of time? I'm thinking that some would be better than none at all, then do a mega water change when you get back. I just ordered almost everything from Greg today and this thread is very helpful in understanding the dosing. I've already been doing the alternate day thing, so this will just fine tune my routine.
Thanks.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

ah vacation, what I have learned about that, it's only once a year eh..
Do a heavy prune, light's C02 on timer, turn down C02 to about 20ppm, run half light and dose hard once at H20 change before leaving.
Upon return resume your regularly scheduled program.


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## Gill Man (Feb 5, 2005)

Thanks. Pendant HQI lights on a timer, can't really use only half. CO2 is injected via controller, so it these stay the same, then I suppose I have to use a drip or dosing pump. The pruning is a good idea I planned to do it a week before I leave that way they be over the initial "shock" and resume growth. I guess I'll only miss one water change, which will be OK, I suppose. I think I just answered my own question.


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## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

perhaps this should go in the DIY section but instead of buying and auto-doser i picked up and IV bag and line punctured a small hole in the top and filled it with my ferts when i went on vacation. works great and it's virtually the same thing as the kent's auto-doser at a fraction ot the cost. only thing is setting the drip rate can be a touch tricky so i recommend setting it up 2-3 days before you leave!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Myers said:


> Should i add K2SO4 when i dose macros or is there enough in the KNO3?


Unless your tap is loaded with NO3, KNO3 is enough.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Gill Man said:


> Thanks. Pendant HQI lights on a timer, can't really use only half. CO2 is injected via controller, so it these stay the same, then I suppose I have to use a drip or dosing pump. The pruning is a good idea I planned to do it a week before I leave that way they be over the initial "shock" and resume growth. I guess I'll only miss one water change, which will be OK, I suppose. I think I just answered my own question.



You can simply raise the light to lower the intensity.
That will help, lower the time down to 8 hours also.

That will save you any issues later. Keep cO2 high though.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Myers (Sep 24, 2004)

For the record my plants have doubled in growth and my algae has all but disappeared minus a few small green spots on the glass...This method has worked so well i'm still in shock from it all...Thanks to craig and tom for all the advice you guys have posted on this matter..


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

That is great new's Myers, but I can not take any credit, it is Tom's knowledge that figured it all out and let people know about it, I just help elaborate on it.. :tongue: 

Up you're KH2P04, that will stop the green spot!

Thanks


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

i'll also chime in here (see my tank thread with pics if you need more details).

Tom's method (as well as Craig's contributions) have certainly helped my tank. Plants grew tremendously, fuzz & substrate algae diminished considerably, and plants stopped showing nutrient deficiencies. Sure, I have a few scattered pieces of fuzz algae and a little spot algae on a few of my stem plants, but there is an overall improvement for sure.

Right now, on my 50g with 30ppm CO2, I'm doing:

SUNDAY - 50% water change, .50TSP NO3, .4g PO4, 5ml Flourish K

MONDAY - 10ml Flourish Trace, 2ml Flourish Fe

TUESDAY - .25TSP NO3, .4g PO4, 5ml Flourish K

WED, & FRIDAY- Repeat Monday

THURS - Repeat Tuesday

SATURDAY - No ferts

Craig & Tom, I think I will up my PO4 to a full.6g (1/8TSP) and see what that does for my remaining fuzz & spot algae. What ppm levels of PO4 are you maintaining, Craig?

I find that my front glass starts developing a very LIGHT film/haze by Tuesday/Wednesday, you'd need to be up close to see it. It never develops into a spot algae on the glass though. I think this film is normal, but you can advise me if I'm wrong.

Edit: Because my tank has grown in fairly thick, I'm also upping my lighting from 96w to 2x96w. With my ferts and CO2 in order as they are, is there anything I should anticipate (aside from more plant growth) from the extra light? Might there be an initial increase in algae?


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Thank you Motdude, that is also very good new's, Kudo's to you and you're tank my friend!!



motifone said:


> Craig & Tom, I think I will up my PO4 to a full.6g (1/8TSP) and see what that does for my remaining fuzz & spot algae. What ppm levels of PO4 are you maintaining, Craig?


Upping the P04 may be a good thing if you are still showing sign's of spot algae, I ran some test's on mine last week, and discovered I need to up my KH2P04 also,1/4Tsp. was 1/8Tsp
Everything was/is looking very good still, but my phosphates where 1 maybe a little below, that's to close to bottoming out, I want to maintain close to a 2,
I started this last week, and plant response has been fantastic, glass and substrate stay's very clean, no visible sign's of the green stuff, that's a plus alway's!!



motifone said:


> Edit: Because my tank has grown in fairly thick, I'm also upping my lighting from 96w to 2x96w. With my ferts and CO2 in order as they are, is there anything I should anticipate (aside from more plant growth) from the extra light? Might there be an initial increase in algae?


Keep C02 high and dosing hard on a regular basis and you should be good to go roud: 

Thanks


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## Anthony (Jan 11, 2005)

So low phosphate causes green spot? I have seen my first site of this today on the front glass.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Up you're Phosphate's a bit :wink:


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## BSS (Sep 24, 2004)

Green Spot is my only persistant algae problem. Since I finally got my CO2 stable at >=30 ppm, I do need to start uping my PO4 additions. I'll definitely move my target range up to 1-2, as Craig is suggesting.

Good thread!


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

quick question, in line with this thread: is plantex (from greg watson) trace? people refer to flourish trace and i haven't seen plantex mentioned as often...
thanks


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## Laith (Jul 7, 2004)

Kris said:


> quick question, in line with this thread: is plantex (from greg watson) trace? people refer to flourish trace and i haven't seen plantex mentioned as often...
> thanks


Yes, Plantex or CSM+B is a trace element powder mix.


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

*Time for a change?*

I've up my light from 96w to 192w. 

When I had 96w, I was dosing 1/2 TSP NO3 on water change day and then 1/4 TSP NO3 every other day. Now, I've had to bump it up to 1/2 TSP from 1/4TSP. Phosphates are added every other day for 1-2ppm. Potassium 5ml every other day.

My Pennywort has recently brrn sprouting new leaves that are a bit pale with veins that are darker. My micro regiment has been 10ml Flourish/2ml Flourish Iron every other day. Should I increase my micro dosing in any way? (I'm moving over to CSM+B soon).

CO2 30ppm.

thanks
steve


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

I would start with an increase in C02, be sure that you have enough macro's.
After a couple of more day's if no improvement, then increase the flourish


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Craig

Groovy. By "increase the Flourish", would you suggest upping the 10ml doses to 15ml, still every other day? Or maybe do a scheduel like 10ml one day, 5ml next day, 10ml next day, 5ml next day, etc....

I also might try not running my UVS 24/7 to see if it is affecting micros.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Give the C02 a shot first.. I am unsure of the concentration differnece's between Flourish & CSM via 1 Tbsp to 250ml H20, I am assuming the CSM is a bit more Concentrated 
I would continue on the regular schedule, macro's one day micro's the next.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> I am unsure of the concentration differnece's between Flourish & CSM via 1 Tbsp to 250ml H20, I am assuming the CSM is a bit more Concentrated


I think so. Greg states that Flourish is only slightly more concentrated than 1Tbsp CSM in 500ml.


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## sawallace (Jan 24, 2005)

What's the advantage of dosing Macros and Micros every-other day, and on different days as opposed to half doses every-day?

Also, Given the desired ranges, what point should you be dosing to? (e.g. NO3 range 5-20ppm. It's a big range, should you aim for the midpoint?)

Thanks


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Iron (Micro) and Phosphate (Macro) can react with each other, I haven't noticed that, but I guess with higher concentrations you'd want to avoid that.

The range is pretty much proportional to the light intensity, so for nitrates, in low light tanks you'd shoot for 5 ppm, and high light perhaps 20 ppm.


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Craig,

If you are are there (or anyone else), I'm moving from Flourish to CSM+B for traces.

Does 1 TBSP to 250ml of H20 sound about right, dosed 10ml 3x a week for my 50g with 192 watts.

I bought the Magnesium Sulfate with it, but don't know if that's necessary.

Thanks as always
steve


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## ThomE (Aug 26, 2004)

Hey Steve,

To find out if you need Magnesium. Get your GH, Test your calcium. Use the chart here to find out your Magnesium in the tank. If you need it dose, if not, it's epson salt. After a hard day's work soak your feet in it  

As for the CSB+B, Greg recommends use 1 tbls to 500ml. Then dose aprox. 1.25 ml to 1ml of flourish.

So, in your current mix 1tbls to 250 ml (if that's your dosing container), you want to dose 2.5ml of that solution in to your 50 gallon tank. (*if you use a 500ml container, dose 5.2ml of solution*)

Also note, if you calculated the solution should be 2.6 ... but that's hard to measure and you have things in your tank so it's not really 50gallons of water in the tank.

HTH,
Thom


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

motifone said:


> Craig,
> 
> If you are are there (or anyone else), I'm moving from Flourish to CSM+B for traces.
> 
> ...


Thats how I mix it and dose it, in my 46g 192 watts, if I do a heavy prune/trim, I will back off and not dose so hard,, I adjust dosing as it grows, most the time though its 10ml 3x a week. 
How is the tank coming along?


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Thanks Craig.

Tank is holding up pretty good, thanks. I pruned out some of my Water Sprite a couple weeks ago and posted a picture update in my journal. Give it a check if you'd like. You wouldn't know I removed any plants looking at my tank today -- the remaining Sprites just filled things in  Foreground has filled in nicely with grass plants. Still trying to get Pennywort back on track so new leaves won't look so pale.

I don't get fuzz algae anymore really. I do get a few long strands of thread algae between weekly cleanings, some spot algae on older leaves and glass, and I guess what you would call a form of red algae on some of my older strands of dwarf sag -- it's black and patchy, usually along leave perimeter. I try to trim those leaves out. Check my dosing, see if anything stands out... 

I've got my CO2 set to shut off at a pH of 6.5. With my KH of 4/4.5, that brings my CO2 well into 30-40ppm. Probably shouldn't lower the pH any further. Macros being dosed at 1/2 TSP NO3 and 1/8 TSP PO4 3x a week. 10-15ml Flourish and 2-3ml Fe 3x a week. 5ml Flourish K 3x a week. It's amazing how fast my tank chews through nitrates. Using a Lamotte test kit, the plants are consuming about 6-8ppm of nitrate between feedings. It's become somewhat of a chore to trim, which needs to be done weekly due to shading of lower plants.

I added a nice healthy school of 15 Cardinals. I also added some shrimp, with mixed success.  I'll also need to add some fans soon to my canopy to keep the water temp down. 

How's all with your projects?
steve


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Sweet. You're regime look's in order, just keep hacking away at the green stuff and it will diminish, High nutrient's and good C02 will keep it from growing, but will not remove it, you will have to do that yourself.
I started experiencing a green dusting on my glass a few weeks back, and I started doing as Tom suggested, @ H20 change, about 70 or 80%, cleaning inside glass with paper towels, I have had to do this 3x now, but it has been week 2, without having to do this, so I think it is subsiding 
But other than that, thing's are growing at an almost overwhelming rate,
and plant's are still looking fantastic..
Will not be much longer you will be moving into some more demanding plant's,
I am trying to get my hand's on even more of the truly exotic's.
I purchased a RO/DI system for my Tonina tank, it's a 10g with 65watts fixture on it..lol talk about over kill.. it's an experiment though, and I am enjoying it.
Hard to stay on top of all this "stuff" lately, been so busy with work and family too..\Until we meet again my friend, Keep the update's coming!!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

If you are seeking slower growth=> less light is the best way.
Choosing slower growth plants like ferns and Crypts in say 30-50% iof the tank or driftwood, rocks etc. 

If you keep cleaning the algae out manually each week durin gthe water changes and keep dosing what you are doing, things should be in great shape after 2-3 weeks.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## hchance (Feb 11, 2004)

Hi--
I've been following this dosing method for over a month now, and recently started having problems with green spot on my Crypt leaves. I posted this problem in another thread, and Craig had suggested I up my P04 to 1/4 tsp which I did. I'm still having major issues with the spots, even on new leaves. I have 110 watts in pc lighting and a 30 watt Powerglo. Is the lighting too bright for the Crypts? I tested my P04 today, which is not a dosing day for this fert, and the test (Red Sea) showed "2 and above". 

Thanks for any help-
Heather


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Hello Heather
You may need to increase C02 & Trace a wee bit more! 2ppm P04 is perfect, what's the N03 reading and above all, how are the plant's and fishies doing?


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## hchance (Feb 11, 2004)

Hi!
Well, I just checked my C02, it's at 45 ppm. Isn't that way high? I just changed out my canister a couple of weeks ago, I may have unknowingly messed up the settings. My N03 is 5 ppm but today is my no dosing day, tomarrow is water change day. The fish seem the same as always, except I did just get 2 new angels and noticed last night they were hanging around the top, getting air maybe? Shouldn't I turn my C02 down a bit?

Is my N03 too low even for the no dosing day? 

Oh, I will be so happy when I get this tank figured out!!!


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

You're C02 is not to high, 45ppm is a rough guess actually the test kits/charts are just a guide, the fish and plants are the true test. if they are really gasping at the top then turn C02 down a bit, I push my C02 real hard during the day, but when light's out C02 is off..

Sound's like you are doing better with the tank I suppose, as apposed to the other thread you started a couple/few month's ago, about ripping out all plant's and going plastic..

5ppm N03 is getting almost to close to bottoming out, I would up that a bit, sound;s like you're tank is chewing through the nitrates..


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## hchance (Feb 11, 2004)

I turned the C02 down a hair. I run mine day and night, so I am a little worried. So I should add more N03 on those dosing days? Earlier you mentioned I should increase the trace a bit. By how much you think? Am I being pesty? :icon_roll


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

How much of each are you dosing at this point?


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## jayrug (Oct 22, 2004)

Wö£fëñxXx,

Do you measure pH at all anymore? According to my recently calibrated Milwaukee controller my pH is 6.4 and my KH is 6.. 72ppm co2 on the chart. 
my fish could care less.... They're acting no different than when I had it at 30ppm

I have very little algae, mostly staghorn in the glosso which I know co2 wouldn't cure..

but, the last time i water changed I saw 2 tiny tufts of BBA get sucked up the python.

Should I just bubble one per sec the whole day for the 10 hours my 4.7wpg is on or something and toss out all pH kits/controllers?

Btw, I have a 55 gallon and dose almost exactly what you dose….
sorry for threadbutting


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

No, I do not test anything..I just enjoy my tank and mow it..
I would toss the ph controller, it is not needed, crank up the C02 during light time and shut down with light's, save's on C02 to boot!
Fish/plant's/algae are the ultimate test kits, they do not lie! 
Keep pruning that out of the glosso and it will go away, High C02 and plenty of fert's will stop it from growing, but will not remove it, you will have to do that.

I have just setup a 10g with 6.5wpg I have been doing a little bit of testing on, only to get a feel of what it;s taking in, I will stop testing it soon.

Bust away, that's what we are here for!! roud:


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## jayrug (Oct 22, 2004)

It's spreading as fast as the glosso does.. I know i have to pull it up and flip the substrate.. I'm just not looking forward to replanting it so I'm procrastinating.

I’m also wondering if it’s the Marimo ball shedding. Do they shed? If it’s staghorn it looks exactly like that damn floating balls hair… I’m gonna ditch it soon anyway. I’m sick of squeezing it to death after every water change


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Pull the moss and put it in a tupperware bowl with water and a lid, then place it in the dark for about a week.
Give you time to get you're glosso clean. and the moss will be clean after sitting in the dark.


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

jayrug said:


> I’m also wondering if it’s the Marimo ball shedding. Do they shed? If it’s staghorn it looks exactly like that damn floating balls hair… I’m gonna ditch it soon anyway. I’m sick of squeezing it to death after every water change


I _had _ Marimo Balls, too, and have this type of Cladophora in my tank:









Over the past couple of weeks I've been using Seachem Excel to battle it. Cladophora will not respond to standard Barr EI protocol. It is too plantlike--you'll only stimulate more growth. Anyhow, the Excel is working very well in this regard. The clado is no longer growing.

I started dosing the initial does (see the Seachem label) daily, and am now up to 15 mL/day on my 26-G aquarium. I have shrimp and fish (Cardinal Tetras, Harlequin Rasboras) and all are well. I suggest you hop over to aquaticplantcentral.com and look at the Excel thread in the algae section.


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## jayrug (Oct 22, 2004)

John P,

Same stuff. That damn ball is coming out.
I only have one but it moves itself all over the tank. All it's favorite resting places are loaded with that stuff and it grows too fast to keep up with.


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

I, too, think the Marimo Balls are to blame. Unless you stumble onto something unknown to me & others here, you will not be able to rid yourself of Cladophora unless you use the Excel treatment.

Think of it this way--the cladophora algae balls (aka Marimo) don't suffer under regular EI dosing ... so it makes sense that the clado all over your tank will not, either.


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## jayrug (Oct 22, 2004)

That Excel thread is very interesting. I'm afraid to do that as I have very hard to find shrimp in there (ninja, bumblebee and common red cherry). If one ninja shrimp died I'd be kicking myself for a long time. Seeing I only have a few patches of this stuff I'm hoping picking at it/burying will keep it under control for now. I’m pulling up the glosso this weekend.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

You definitely have to be careful overdosing Excel. It's possible to wipe the tank of all your fauna (excepting snails, especially MTS) and even kill your plants.


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## hchance (Feb 11, 2004)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> How much of each are you dosing at this point?



I've been dosing what I was originally told to--

1.5 tsp in 125ml of Plantex dosing 10ml
1/2 tsp N03


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

hchance said:


> I've been dosing what I was originally told to--
> 
> 1.5 tsp in 125ml of Plantex dosing 10ml
> 1/2 tsp N03


Try increasing the Trace to 12ml, keep C02 high during light's on.
If it is getting down to you having a few green spot's on you're Anubius, then I will take that to mean, the plant's and tank are doing much better! roud:


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

jayrug said:


> That Excel thread is very interesting. I'm afraid to do that as I have very hard to find shrimp in there (ninja, bumblebee and common red cherry). If one ninja shrimp died I'd be kicking myself for a long time. Seeing I only have a few patches of this stuff I'm hoping picking at it/burying will keep it under control for now. I’m pulling up the glosso this weekend.


I have bee and cherry shrimp--probably about a 100 total in there, in addition to Cardinal Tetras (which many regard as sensitive). No loses at all. I suggest you go slow to acclimatize the animals.

You will lose the Clado war otherwise, I'm afraid.


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## hchance (Feb 11, 2004)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Try increasing the Trace to 12ml, keep C02 high during light's on.
> If it is getting down to you having a few green spot's on you're Anubius, then I will take that to mean, the plant's and tank are doing much better! roud:


Okay, I will try what you have suggested. If there were just a little bit of green spot, I wouldn't even bother asking for help. But it's taking over quickly. Otherwise, I'm very happy the plants are growing now instead of dying, and the fish seem happy to have plants in there. So you're right, that is good. 

Thanks-

Heather


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

My experiment with EI is over!

I attempted to follow the EI parameters, maintaining [email protected]~20ppm, [email protected]~2ppm and daily dosing of micros (Flourish @ 5ml). Increased CO2 as well and restarted K dosing. I even started dosing a little Excel as it has been rumored to both increase iron uptake and as an algae prophylaxis. My result? I noticed a small bit of BBA on my Blyxa japonica! I cut off some of the effected leaves and pulled out one of the plants and tossed it. I had no problem until I tried switching over to a newer regimen.

My normal water change is on Saturday. I will bump it up to tomorrow or Friday to get the levels down again and try to get back to my normal routine. Hopefully the water change will work.

Mike


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

so what's your "normal" levels, Mike?


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

shalu said:


> so what's your "normal" levels, Mike?


Beat me to it. Me wanna know, too.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

*D'oh!*

NO3 - 10ppm dose an additional 2.5ppm on Wed
PO4 - 1.5ppm
pH - 6.7
Micros - 5ml 3x week (Flourish - Mon, Wed, Fri)
Iron - 3ml 3x week (Ferrous gluconate - Mon, Wed, Fri)

Basically, I'd dose NO3 to 10ppm and PO4 to 1.5ppm on water change. 10ml of Flourish and 3ml of iron on water change as well. I'd bump the NO3 on Wednesday. PO4 would drop _slowly_ over the course of the week.

Mike


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

If you feed well, you can do fine with that.
Adding more nutrients when one is limiting will drive CO2 uptake as well.

I'm not sure what you mean by following the EI.
It does not suggest daily dosing etc, you can do that *if you wish*.
Likewise, you skip water changes for a week or more *if you wish*.

I suggest weekly water changes if folks are having trouble or just want to jam the growth rate up which is why they ask for help.
You can eye ball it/guesstimate till the plant growth hits a lull then do the water change and redose.

A nice tank without issues can do just fine with dosing 3x a week for 2-3-4 weeks without the water change. I've done it. I just watch the plants and know how they respond.
If I want to whip a tank into good shape, I'll do the water changes or if I want to test something and feel confident of the nutrient levels.

New folks may not want to try that nor folks with algae issues.
But the levels you say, 10 vs 20 ppm NO3, PO4 and trace differences are still very high in terms of limiting the algae. 

The only variable which is difficult to account for............CO2.

I do this routine at higher levels than you with even more light and with this same plant, Flourite substrate etc, I have no algae, no BBA.

I've done it for a very long time. You might want to review what you are doing and see if you can find the issue which is likely CO2.
Bump it up, even if it seems okay.

This will improve the routine you have now. Low PO4 removal rates also suggest the CO2 may be an issue.

PO4/CO2 are well linked to sugar production and O2 evolution.

So adding mor eCO2 will help either routine you chose and take you one step closer to being optimized.

Once there, you can use that as your default standard and be able to play around with a wide variety of nutrient levels.

EI are just base line suggestions for problems, you can vary them as you gain experience, the suggestion are not set in stone, there is a lot of play.

I suggest very rich nutrients and CO2 for good reason and also lower /less light.

Most folks underdose things.
But you can dose less.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Thanks, Tom!

I was trying to up the nutrients a bit to see what would happen. I was hoping to get better growth on Riccia and other plants. I got the growth, I also got a bit of an unpleasant surprise! :hihi: BBA came out of nowhere. There wasn't a lot of it, but I want to nip it all in the bud, or spore, if you prefer.

Funny, but the first thing I thought to do was increase CO2! 

I usually do water change on Saturday, but will do it tomorrow or Friday. That, in concurrence with the higher CO2 level will hopefully begin to fight back the BBA.

Mike


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

What about K? I bought some from Greg Watson and was thinking of adding some now that my Flourish K has run out. Specs:

50g, 192 watts, 40+ppm CO2, 12hrs light period
Weekly 50% water change
1/2 TSP NO3 3x a week, 1/8 TSP PO4 3 x week
10ml CSM+B 3x a week (1TSP to 250ml H20 Mix)
3ml Flourish Fe 3x a week

I posted another thread about "slowing down" my tank's growth. You could posts thoughts here as well, since I saw Tom mention a reduction in lighting. How much would you reduce the photoperiod? Would you also decrease the ferts? Or, keep the light as is and just decrease the ferts? A 2 week water change cycle might also be preferred.

I love my tank, but I need to keep it manageable


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

I would decrease the light intensity, not the photo-period. Also realize you will need to adjust your fertilizing regime in accordance with the decrease in light intensity.

Mike


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Lighting is the best way to slow down and particular set of plants.
But..........you change simply change the plant species to more Crypts, ferns and moss etc rather than Mexican oak(a god awful weed).

You can also add more hardscape to the design.
Still keep a few fast growers, keep them where you can prune them easy etc.

Less light makes everything slow down and that includes algae.
It provides a great deal of wiggle room with your dosing routines.

More light means less wiggle room.

So you can use design/plant changes and less light.
Next you go to non CO2 methods(which have less light also and other plant choices), then you get to PO4 limiting which causes the least damage to the plants if limiting.

Each has a trade off.
the best results I think come from less light.

You can also use the full light for say 3-4 hours and then 1/2 that amount for the rest of the 10 hour peroid.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Hey Craig, Tom, (and gang),

I'm moving over to K2SO4 for Potassium. What's your dosing of K like?

Im thinking of bringing my K levels up to 15ppm on water change day, so dosing ONCE a week. Since my 1/2 TSP KNO3 dosing on water change day already adds about 6ppm K to the tank, would you recommend:

a) "Make life simple, throw in 1TSP of K2S04 (14ppm) into the tank, bringing the total K to 20ppm (14+6 from KNO3). Do this once a week on water change day only. 20ppm won't hurt anything and is a good way to start the week."

b) "Be more precise. Throw in 1/2 TSP of K2S04 (7ppm). With the 6ppm from the KNO3, that will bring totals to around 13ppm which is close enough. Again, do this once a week on water change day only."

thanks
steve


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Hmm,

Per this thread, I mixed 1 TBSP of CSM+B into 250ml of distilled water. I shook it until I could shake it no more, but there seemed to be a lot of solid granules on the bottom of the container. Is this normal?


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

I believe a "Target" K is 15 to 30 ppm, close enough, if the plant's is happy, we be happy 
I dose like a 1/8Tsp K when I dose Mac's..
As far as grunge in the bottom of my CSM bottle, hmm I have never looked, I just shake and pour, beside I use an old flourish bottle to house it, dark brown ya know! 
I do not refrigerate either, I suppose you do and that may be where that is coming from.


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Hey Craig

At one point, on your 46g I believe it was, you said you were dosing a really high amount of PO4, something like 1/4tsp (I assume in conjunction with 1/2tsp NO3). Results, you said, were elimination of green spot completely. Are you still doing this or have you backed down to 1/8tsp PO4?

Right now, I'm at 1/2tsp NO3 ad 1/8tsp PO4 .... CO2 30-40ppm


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Man I read these numbers over and over in different posts and I have to say that everyone needs to realize that all water sources are different and *can * and *will* effect how much you add of any nutrient.
There is no set way to dose any tank, even with EI dosing. I think that EI dosing is getting a lot of folks in trouble and this may be the reason for the latest ALGAE Bloom in the Forum. Not all tanks are the same.
Bio load and plant load are all huge keys in dosing needs. 

If you are not sure... TEST, TEST and then test again until you know the water values inside and out. I hate to say this but there is no easy way out. 

For example, What is in your water to start with for nutrients affects what you need to add ! 
6 different 75 gallon tanks from 6 different areas can take 6 different dosing regimens. 
Do you have city water or well water, do you have all root feeders or all stems , do you do water changes every week or every 2 weeks , do you have 2wpg or 5 wpg ?

There are a lot of variables that affect dosing and you need to play with it until you get it balanced.

Just because 1/4 tsp works in that tank does not mean it will work in mine... :wink:


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Woo Hoo -- A dissension in the ranks  (kidding, Buck)

Some cautionary, but valid points, indeed. It's certainly not an exact science and one person's 50g will never be an exact match to mine -- local tap, bio load, plant load, much more -- all factor into the equation. It's a lot like those self-help audio tapes we all see sold at 2am on TV. It all looks and sounds great when that dude with the microphone is prancing around on stage, preaching salvation, but there is no cure for all. Everyone, and everyone's tank, is different.

On that note, I do have a Lamotte test kit for Nitrate. Red Sea test kit for Phosphate. I check tank levels periodically. I just did a big prune -- time for a test. Months ago, I also checked my tap water to see what the levels were in that is well. The season is changing, probably time for another tap water change.


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

Yep. I hadn't really thought about seasonal tap water variations before but that is something I need to check on.

We lived for a few months in a neighboring town where the water well, lets just say it was rich. During that time, the only thing I did to my tank was a *monthly* water change and feed the fish. My swords were lush. Moved where I live now and watched the new growth turn pale and pasty (at that time, I had no idea about iron supplementing - this was nearly 20 years ago) and the plants eventually die. I know *now* the local water supply is lacking in iron and possibly other nutrients but the literature (what literature?) available then said nothing.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

motifone said:


> Hey Craig
> 
> At one point, on your 46g I believe it was, you said you were dosing a really high amount of PO4, something like 1/4tsp (I assume in conjunction with 1/2tsp NO3). Results, you said, were elimination of green spot completely. Are you still doing this or have you backed down to 1/8tsp PO4?
> 
> Right now, I'm at 1/2tsp NO3 ad 1/8tsp PO4 .... CO2 30-40ppm


I am dosing appro. 3/16 Tsp KH2P04, have been on this schedule for a number of weeks now, with good result's.
I have also lowered my KN03 to 1/4Tsp, and 1/8Tsp K2S04, that is how my tank is working out now with great results, no algae and things are growing great.

To respond to buckman's post, my source wtare does not have any N03 or P04, but is on the hard side kh4 gh8,
and one should always know the result's of thier source water before dosing EI...Most not all but most have low to no Mac's.
I think most of the algae issue's that have transpired are related to a mis-understanding of the light C02 nutrient ratio 
most will get the hang of it, lord know's I have went thru my share of woe's lol until it clicked, :icon_idea


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> I think most of the algae issue's that have transpired are related to a mis-understanding of the light C02 nutrient ratio
> most will get the hang of it,


I second that.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The EI assumes you have a fully planted or relatively fully planted tank.
If you have 5 vals in a 55gal and high light, well..........
Point is that anyone can pick out exceptions...........
But you have to go quite far and then it does not matter what method you decide to use...................you will still have algae issue if you have too many fish, not enough CO2, every test kit, never do pruning or neglect the tank..........

The issue that excess nutrients cause algae has been shown to be quite the myth.

If the tap water possesses more NO3/PO4.......so what. 
If you are testing, then that matters, if not, it doesn't.
What is the issue with 1ppm vs 2ppm of PO4?

Perhaps NO3 might be an issue for some........but even there, 20 vs 30ppm is not going to cause algae either.........

So we can assume much of the tap water issues away,. Few taps have NH4.



> For example, What is in your water to start with for nutrients affects what you need to add !


Well if you want to not have to add say PO4 if your tap already has it, but even if it does, so what, excess is not going to cause a negative issue in and of itself.

Do you agree?



> 6 different 75 gallon tanks from 6 different areas can take 6 different dosing regimens.


And they can take 6 dosing routines that are identical.
What would the issue be if I had 1ppm of PO4 and Joe had 2ppm?
As long as we both never allowed the nutrients to become limiting, then we will have significantly similar results.



> do you have all root feeders or all stems ,


All plants will acquire the nutrients from the water column first given a choice. Swords/Crypts are just as as agressive at uptake as stem plants. 



> do you do water changes every week or every 2 weeks , do you have 2wpg or 5 wpg ?


EI assumes a higher rate, 6w/gal of PC's at 16" depth, that's pretty high light and with fast growing weeds, it's unlikely anyone will need MORE.

That is a safe assumption.
Excess PO4/NO3/Traces etc are also assumed not to cause algae.
again, a safe assumption.

So tap, plant type, light etc are assumed away by safe assumptions based on what we assume to be true.

It's safe to assume excess PO4 does not cause algae etc...
It's safe to assume that few folks have more light than that.
Etc......

This is why the theory is important when you approach something like growing plants.



> There are a lot of variables that affect dosing and you need to play with it until you get it balanced.


True, but it's not because they are dosing too much, it's most often CO2, then NO3..........



> Just because 1/4 tsp works in that tank does not mean it will work in mine...


But adding that 1/4 teaspoon would rule out the K+ and the NO3 needs as a potential issue and narrow the search down while improving the tank and the robustness of the routine you are now doing.

Then you can it is NOT NO3 or K+ in that case.......
Eventually through a process of elimantion, you arrive at what it is.

EI makes quick work of that with respect to the nutrients/unknown organics.

All that's left is CO2 which is generally the toughest issue.

From there, it is no longer an environmental issue, it's getting in there and pruning, trimming, fluffing and working the tank and cleaning filters etc.

You want to suggest there are too many variables and it is impossible to generalize, having done 1000's of post and helping more folks that I can shake a piece of driftwood at, I can tell you, there are definite patterns to these problems. 

Same old hat over and over and over again.

Don't lose yourself in all the variations and feel you have to test your tank, it changes all the time just like a different tank.

You can test if you want to, but it's far far from necessary, I only suggest it for GH/KH and pH for CO2/water changes.
PO4/NO3 if you want to see what the tap is or perhaps till you get a better feel for the plants, they tell you far more than the test kits ever will.

Once you see and know what good plant growth looks like, then you have a standard to use to change and limit things in your routine, there is no rule that says you must do weekly water changes, it's just a good suggestion for evening things out. And no, you do not need a test kit to do that either.

Look at the darn plants and tend to the mainteance folks, stop bugging about test kits and algae.
That would be time better spent cleaning, pruning, and doign a water change.

Once things even out, you do not have to do nearly the same amount of work.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Hey Tom and others using EI,
I have been using EI for about 1.5 weeks. I have been following this schedule.
Day1) 50% H20 CHange dose 1/2Tsp KN03 3/8tsp KH2P04 1/8Tsp K2S04
Day2) dose 10ml flourish
Day3)dose 1/2Tsp KN03 3/8tsp KH2P04 1/8Tsp K2S04
Day4)same as day2
Day5) Nothing
Day6) same as day1
Day7) same as day2

I have a 46 gallon tank that is moderately planted. I am running 2x55 +2x13watt PC's. I am using pressurized Co2 with ppm's in the 30++ range. Today was a rest day in the second week for dosing and I did some water tests to see where I was. 
NO3 30+ppm and PO4 5+ppms.
Now I just added some plants last weekend because plants where a little on the low side. I'm sure that the plants will eventually kick into higher gear after they adjust. Should I chill on dosing or continue with that schedule? I was thinking about dosing less KH2PO4...it looks like my ratio is getting out of wack there. My next WC is sat, I have been doing 50%. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!! Thanks
jB


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

How do the plant's look? Generally overall how is you're tank doing with the dosing?
If all is well, you could cut all you're dosing a bit till thing's get going good.
Keep C02 on the elevated side though and off at night.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Hey man,
The plants have shown pretty good growth. My algae situation has inproved a bit. Since I started dosing EI my water is clowdy, almost like the beginning of GW. I have been maintaining 30++ ppm. I even turn it up here and there. I dont have a selenoid so i cannot turn it off at night. Any more thoughts? I think the levels are two high, considering I havent dosed macros since monday night (today is weds). I feel pretty confident that I am not going to bottom out. HEHE. I will cut the macros in half for a week and see where it leaves me. Any thoughts would be hot!!! Thanks
jB


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Hi JB,

I'll chime in a little bit here -- I've found uptake has a lot to do with amount of plants in a tank and types of plants. I own a 50 gallon with 192watts. A couple weeks ago when my tank was jam packed with plants, especially with lots of water sprite, my tank was nearly bottoming out on nitrates every two days -- and that was with dosing 1/2tsp of NO3 every other day! Water Sprite is a notorious nutrient sponge. Today, I don't have nearly as many plants and not nearly as much Water Sprite. Out of curiosity, I've been testing my nitrates with my Lamotte test kit and found that my tank is not devouring nearly as many nitrates. So, instead of 1/2tsp NO3 3x a week, I am going to try 1/2tsp NO3 on water change day and 1/4tsp NO3 on the other two days. According to EI, reducing the NO3 is not really necessary -- it shouldn't cause algae. Rather, I'm really only reducing the dose to conserve ferts. No sense on wasting them and I can lower the dose enough while not being limiting (bottoming out). With CO2 in check, nutrients bottoming out is worse than nutrients in excess. (at least that's how I interpret EI). Good CO2 is the key. I've recently pushed mine as high as 40-50ppm, according to the ph/Kh charts. 

I've also added a few more fish and feeding more, so dosing less PO4 during the week, too.

You might also want to reconsider your "day off" so that you are not dosing micros the day before water change. Not a big deal, some folks just feel micros can be expensive and is therefore wasteful.

Here's what I'm trying out (all Greg Watson ferts):

SUNDAY - 50% Water change, 1/2tsp NO3, 1/8tsp PO4, 1/2tsp K
MONDAY - 10ml CSM+B, 2-3ml Flourish Fe
TUESDAY - 1/4tsp NO3, 1/16tsp PO4, 1/8tsp K
WEDNESDAY - 10ml CSM+B, 2-3ml Flourish Fe
THURSDAY - 1/4tsp NO3, 1/16tsp PO4, 1/8tsp K
FRIDAY - 10ml CSM+B, 2-3ml Flourish Fe
SATURDAY - Day Off


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks for the chime in motifone!!! Good insite there.....and it is comforting to know that I am at least grasping what is supposed to be happening. roud: I guess I will chill out a bit on the dosing, but closely monitor the uptake, cause the newer plants will kick into high soon enough.
jB


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jason Baliban said:


> Hey Tom and others using EI,
> I have been using EI for about 1.5 weeks. I have been following this schedule.
> Day1) 50% H20 CHange dose 1/2Tsp KN03 3/8tsp KH2P04 1/8Tsp K2S04
> Day2) dose 10ml flourish
> ...


You can likely dose less, even 1/2, but as the tank fills in, you will need a bit more.

But the excess is not going to cause any algae issues.
What may cause algae issues: anything that slows the plant's using up any NH4 that's present. Adding NO3 does not do that. Plants will use any NH4 that's around and then use the NO3.

If you limit the plants too much with NO3, they will no liong er tank in the NH4 either, they will not have enough N to make uptake enzymes.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

> According to EI, reducing the NO3 is not really necessary -- it shouldn't cause algae. Rather, I'm really only reducing the dose to conserve ferts. No sense on wasting them and I can lower the dose enough while not being limiting (bottoming out).


Good pouint for others to hear.
Biomass issues play a huge role, some hitting a perfect just enough amount at any point during the week can be tough, so we all add more than is neededm, but you can later minimize the amounts and get a feel for what you need later as you gain experience.

The important thing is to *see the plants at max growth/health*, then you have an idea of what optimal growth is and looks like!!!

From there, a new person can change their routines and always fall back on a basic EI to use as their default.

It's simple to reduce the KNO3 down till you see a negative impact with the plants, then you add a touch more and keep it there from then on.

You do not need a test kit, the plants do that and are much nicer than a test kit and tell you what you want to know.

You only have 3-6 main variables to monkey with:
KNO3
KH2PO4
Trace
GH
Fish food
Plant biomass

So..........deducing what you need should not be too hard.
Go down from the KNO3=> KH2PO4=> Fish food=> GHY=> Traces on down the line.

Note biomass of plants.
If you trim 1/2 the tank's biomass, assume 1/2 the uptake rate after.

Regards, 
Tom barr


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

Can someone offer a little advice on implementing EI with my tap water please?

I just did the first (50%) water change on my tank after it's original setup (5.5 weeks ago), in preparation for trying Tom's Estimative Index, and it's immediately looking a lot better. (Alarmingly, the tank smelt like, what I can only describe as saltwater







.... hate to think what the tds value was like!)

Anyhow, my question is about what adjustments to make to factor in my tapwater.
According to the local report, my tap water has....
Nitrates: 36ppm
Potassium: 3.7ppm
Phosphorus: 0.08ppm
Iron: 0.013ppm

With nitrates this high, what would be the best dosing adjustment to make? Or, would this not matter too much?

My tank consists of;
80 litres actual water volume (calculated on initial fill)
CO2 between 23-38ppm (will stabilise this more).
146W of PC light

Any help would be grand!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Stu said:


> According to the local report, my tap water has....
> Nitrates: 36ppm
> Potassium: 3.7ppm
> Phosphorus: 0.08ppm
> ...


Ugh, that's a lot of light.
You can do a 50% water change, do not add KNO3 for the first 3 days, then add a 1/4 teaspoon about 3-4 days later.

Add traces: 3x a week, 5mls
KH2PO4: dose 4x a week on off days as the traces
K2SO4, add 1/3 teaspoon once a week after water change.
Add KNO3 once a week 3 days after the water change.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

Many thanks Tom.









I appreciate that it's a lot of light. I hope I can settle into a regime whereby this will not cause too many problems. I have experienced what this lighting can do already







with regards to algae, and am not affraid of algal outbreaks, as I can learn from these mistakes.

I have glass covers over the tank which reduces the light from that maximum figure, plus I can add acrylic plates under the lights to diffuse it even further if needs be.
I can individually switch the four tubes (2x 55Watt, 2x 18Watt) as well to get fine control on the wattage into the tank.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Try with only the 110 PC light.
Then later, you can try with the 2x18w alone. Both will do quite well.

36w will grow slower and be easier to control, 110w will drive growth much faster.

Both is going to cause even more pressure on the CO2/dosing routine.


Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com 
Plant Fest 2K5 in Florida July 8-15(FW and then the Marine version)! Swim with plecos loose in the wild, Everglades aquatic plant nursery tour, trip to Tampa Public aquarium presentation at Tampa's aquarium society, more driftwood than you shake a stick at, native fish, weeds and more weeds. Stop watching the Discovery channel and do the Discovery channel.


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Both is going to cause even more pressure on the CO2/dosing routine.


So are you saying that even with doing 50% weekly water changes, and dosing as per the levels posted earlier, I would have problems controlling the tank over time?
Or do you mean that at that rate of photosynthesis, the plants could be stripping out the nutrients at a rate so fast that I'd be dosing more than once each day?

Is there an upper limit on the amount of light one can have for the EI to work?


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## ringram (Jan 19, 2005)

the Plantex CSM+B from greg watson is considered a "trace" solution. However, you may need to adjust other things, depending on your situation. I have several red plants, so I use the "extra Fe" variety of CSM+B.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Stu said:


> So are you saying that even with doing 50% weekly water changes, and dosing as per the levels posted earlier, I would have problems controlling the tank over time?
> Or do you mean that at that rate of photosynthesis, the plants could be stripping out the nutrients at a rate so fast that I'd be dosing more than once each day?
> 
> Is there an upper limit on the amount of light one can have for the EI to work?


Both, as in both sets of light.
The upper limit is defined by the maximum amount of light under non limiting nutrient/CO2 levels that no longer produces more biomass(grams of C, N, P, dry or wet weight ...some unit) over time.

E.i. adding more light will no longer grow the plants faster.

This level is fairly low. 50(a good general low end) to a max of 600 micromoles of photons/m^2/sec for faster growing stem plants/weeds.
Full sunlight is 2000-2150 mm of Photons/m^2/sec for reference. I do not use lux or other units. I either talk very generally in imprecise terms like w/gal that work well for most hobbyists or else go all the way. 

My point though is that you will have an easier time balancing things and there is a great deal *more wiggle * room with your routine(and consider you will neglect the tank at some point and time in the future and miss dosing for a few days etc or go on vacation etc).

Maximize the light use efficency and back off the light, you do not need that much, the plants do very well and you have less algae issues overall with less light.

More is not better.
It makes the routine and adherence more critical.
You also must prune more often and most will have more algae problem over time with more light.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

Cheers for clarifying Tom.

I did realise you were refering to both, as in sets of lights, but was just wondering as to the best reasons why..... sorry, it's not that I was doubting you in any way, but the scientific mind in me wanted to understand the reasons behind opinions!











plantbrain said:


> I either talk very generally in imprecise terms like w/gal that work well for most hobbyists or else go all the way


I've recently signed up to the Barr Report and I noticed the detail about light in the latest edition, but have yet to get to reading it! Personally, I like to see as much scientific data as possible behind such technical and biological aspects of our tanks, even if at first it requires a little research to fully understand.









Due to the size of my hood/light tubes, it will require a bit of a reshuffle, but I think I'll go with 110 Watts (2x 55W tubes). The reason behind this is that the tank is 36" long, and currently this is how my lighting is....









As the 18 Watters run off a seperate ballast, it would be more efficient to remove one complete ballast (the 2x 18 - can use this for another tank, or daphnia culturing in the near future) rather than running only one tube of each. Obviously I will move one tube to the other end and bring them as close as possible, overlapping the light in the middle of the tank like this....

```
________________________________
|                                                   |
|[=================                   |
|                   =================]|
|________________________________|
```


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well in this case: try one of the 55 and one 18, I though the 18's were lenghtwise, not on one unbalanced side.

You can run all of them for 3-4 hours if you wish, then go back to a 18, 55 combo but you do not need that much light.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Hey Tom,
I am midway through my 3rd week. I must tell you that this thing you got going on here is pretty hot!!! Things are turning around nicely in my tank. Almost all the algae is gone. I have a question about longevity and sustainability of the system. Say I am doing this system for a year? At present, I am still tailoring the system to my tank, and I imagine I can get it pretty dialed in as far as uptake and dosing. Say, I get it to the point that I am close to a balance; still understanding that excess of macros is better then limited. There is still going to be that "extra" that is going to build up week after week. Over a year this will build a great deal I would think. I imagine that you have your dosing to uptake fairly balanced....but what do you do with residual buildup of ferts? Do you do a whole tank reset (extreme WC) or maybe a non-dosing week? I do not have one of those nuclear tanks that has a beaming 5wpg. I have 3wpg and I actually feel that is too much. However, it still doesn’t have nuclear growth like some of the higher light tanks. This leaves me with quite a bit of extra ferts in the tank to deal with. I am taking your advice on change, and allow a few weeks to pass before i make changes. I think folks get crazed with having big light for their tanks. I think it is important to make light the limiting factor. The reduction in light gives that aforementioned "wiggle room", it also gives you a chance to really sculpt your tank. You dont have to worry about erasing a cool scape in 3 days cause your plants are growing like crazy. I believe that your core idea of making sure that no nutrient is limited is what is truly sound about your method. I don’t believe that having to dose 1 lbs of KNO3 a week in a 10 gallon tank with 4800 watts of lighting is the mark of success. I believe that providing plants what they need to grow at a reasonable rate to create beautiful aquascapes is truly the lure of our community. I believe that amano and knott prove that silently. Thanks for your methods!!
jB


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

I've had a change around in my tank hood, and am now running the two 55Watts as stated earlier.

I did try different options first, like the two tubes positioned centrally as so....

```
________________________________
|                                                   |
|          [=================         |
|           =================]        |
|________________________________|
```
...but this produced darker ends that I did not like.

I agree that 110Watts is still too much probably, but I think it's the best option to have my tank evenly lit.

Thanks for all the help and advice Tom, much appreciated.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Jason, the math works out that the build up will NOT go to infinity. Weekly 50% water changes means the most you can build up is twice the weekly accumulation, never higher. If you do 25% water change, then the build up limit is 4 times the weekly accumulation. Those limits are reached after infinite number of weeks.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks shula.....i scribbled it out on a piece of paper. Funny how that works out.
jB


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jason, I get this water change dilution question about once a month.
Here's the math:

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200502/msg00076.html

I know math is scary but this will show it will never build up beyond the 2-1.4 factor which does not include any plant uptake......

Might want to book mark it since folks will always come up and say something to that effect, even at face value, you know it does not make sense that it infinitely builds up.....ahhh common sense....

Regards, 
Tom Barr



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

shalu said:


> Those limits are reached after infinite number of weeks.


How long is an infinite number of weeks? hehe


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Once I skribbled it out on a pad i could see it within three cycles. Sometimes you just have to write things out.  
jB


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

plantbrain said:


> How long is an infinite number of weeks? hehe
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I think 30 years would be close enough :icon_bigg Seriously though, it gets pretty stable after first couple of weeks, as Jason is finding out. The rest is beyond the resolution of many cheap test kits.


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## Troy McClure (Feb 22, 2004)

Gomer said:


> Suppose you dose 10ppm of NO3 total to a tank. Assume you do a 50% weekly water change. If you do the math, you find out that:
> 
> If you assume that NONE of it is used up, you can build up a maxiumum of 20 PPM
> 
> ...


Sorry to bring this one back to life, but could someone explain how Tony got these numbers? I understand how to calculate the max based on assuming zero uptake, but not the others. Is the uptake assumption made for the entire week, meaning what you have left at the end of the week just before the WC, or is it the uptake recorded just before your next dosing of macros? 25% uptake at the end of the week is significantly less than 25% uptake just before the next dosing of macros. That's what has me confused.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Troy McClure said:


> Sorry to bring this one back to life, but could someone explain how Tony got these numbers? I understand how to calculate the max based on assuming zero uptake, but not the others. Is the uptake assumption made for the entire week, meaning what you have left at the end of the week just before the WC, or is it the uptake recorded just before your next dosing of macros? 25% uptake at the end of the week is significantly less than 25% uptake just before the next dosing of macros. That's what has me confused.


Consider 10ppm added a week with no uptake=> 20ppm max build up *with the 50% weekly water change*.

That's the part that's confusing you.
It considers the remaining week's NO3 build up.
That's why it's not 15ppm, but rather, 16ppm. 

If you factor in some uptake, the max build up will be less than 20ppm in this case, but not 25% less since it's a dilution and you need to consider the *remaining NO3 still in solution due to water changes from the previous week * etc.

humm........I suppose I should present this graphically to better illustrate this concept Gomer showed in his example.

It's like an uptake curve.

As the uptake from plants increase, the max leveling off/flat lining of the max concentration is lowered.

I'll post a graph shortly.

Good question and Gomer gave a good example.
Thanks. 

Dang, for such a simple idea and method, it's become quite the quest to further expound on it 

regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Troy McClure (Feb 22, 2004)

I understand how EI works, it's just that little tidbit of knowledge Gomer threw out that peaked my interest. The APD article explains the math and reasoning very well, even if it is hard to read sigmas in ASCII... 

A chart would be nice for more visual folks, maybe even something along the lines of a simple calculator. Punch in the target level, WC%, out comes the residual max.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, then, I graphed Gomer's examples through time to show how the build up occurs. No math needed to understand the relationship over time!

Folks respond better to images where their is a large amount of data, graphes summerize things anmd explain relationships very well.

I will be adding these to the EI article on my site shortly, tonight hopefully.

Folks are scared of math, science, test kits, complex things. While the EI is easy, the reason's why something works in modeling and theory is often not.

But....the goal is to provide a simple method that works well so that folks do not need to understand all this, but it's there if they chose to pick it apart.

Many folks have certain areas of expertise.................some like math, some chem, some, botany, some engineering, that is the beauty of many folks coming to gether to work on a project and help other folks.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

3rd annual Plant Fest July 8-14th 2005!
[email protected] Get connected
www.BarrReport.com Get the information


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

I have just read through this entire thread with my brow furrowed in concentration the entire time. I find that I am more confused about algae control in general now than I have been since I first started keeping planted tanks. The basic premise that I have been operating under since day one is that limiting phosphates while having sufficient nutrients and CO2 limits algae. That was based on a study I read a long time ago and has seemed to be borne out by my experiences since then. I dose heavily and cycle heavily and in general it has worked well for me, though I have never been 100% algae free, except in my desktop tanks. Usually there is enough algae to keep the shrimp happy, but not enough to be a problem.
I once had a bad BBA algae problem and began cycling 50% to 75% every 3 days in that tank. I dosed ferts heavily (except phosphates) and made sure my CO2 was as high as I could get it with DIY. There was no growth of BBA during this time and after about 3 weeks, the BBA just MELTED away and even the green spot algae I had on the one side that I never cleaned just fell off in a sheet. So, that seemed to confirm that with p04 as close to 0 as possible and all other nutrients in excess, algae goes away.
I am not saying that there are not problems with this method, though. If I miss any fert dosing, algae comes back fast. For instance, 2 weeks ago I went on vacation for a week and came back to a horrid algae bloom in virtually all my tanks. I know it will take a long time (probably 1 to 2 months) to get rid of it again. Also, another shortcoming of this method seems to be that with very low p04 levels, plant growth is not all that fast. For example, my didiplis diandre hasn't reached the top of my 75 gallon tank in like 3 months, which seems slower than I would expect and the little bit of H. difformis I have in that tank looks great, but doesn't grow at all. Most other plants grow at a rate that seems normal and some plants grow at MAD rates!
What I don't understand about the Tom Barr method is what is limiting the algae? If all nutrients including p04 are accounted for, shouldn't algae grow great in addition to the plants? What is the basic premise that this method functions under? In a nutrient rich environment algae just doesn't do well?
How compatible is my current method with the Tom Barr method? I have 7 tanks, but I will use my 75 gallon as an example.

75 gallon tank, heavily planted
3.6wpg, KH = 4, CO2 = 20 to 30ppm based on PH of 6.6 to 6.8
Ferts:
Kent Grow (traces plus macros) - 4ml dosed daily
Kent Nitro+ - Dosed based on test kit to maintain 15ppm. Usually about 24 ml per 3 days and 36 ml after water changes
Kent K+ - dosed once per week with water changes per instructions, 2 drops per 10 gallons rounded = 16 drops.
Phosphates - Never dosed, aggressively kept as low as possible. Usually my tanks seem to be at about .1ppm on the old phosphate test kit, though occasionally in the past they have risen to .5ppm during busy weeks
Water changes for the 75 gallon tank are 20 gallons medium soft RO water cycled once per week.

I will likely not be running out of my Kent ferts and switching to Watson ferts any time soon, either. I have like 5 64 oz jugs of my Kent ferts, which will probably last me another year or more.

-Aphyosemion


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

> What I don't understand about the Tom Barr method is what is limiting the algae? If all nutrients including p04 are accounted for, shouldn't algae grow great in addition to the plants? What is the basic premise that this method functions under? In a nutrient rich environment algae just doesn't do well?
> How compatible is my current method with the Tom Barr method? I have 7 tanks, but I will use my 75 gallon as an example.


Plants remove NH4 to extremely low levels. Algae get much more energy from this per unit algae cell/spore than a plant. 

Plants have a higher uptake rate than algae, thus they need more.

It'd be like starving the mice to feed the elephant.

Herbivores

Us pruning and removing and stabilizing nutrients.

Lower light than outdoor systems. 

Plants block the light. 

Algae and plants are in the same ecological niche(Far from it)

Your basic assumption makes a fatal flaw as did Paul's PMDD, all of 2 case studies with cheesy test kits hardly makes a case. 

It assumes excess or higher levels of PO4 cause increases in algae.
Everyone knows this is simply not true.
You are not limiting algae, they can grow fine at levels of PO4 you simply cannot measure. I can't measure how little PO4 is needed to limit algae on a plant.

It's less than 10parts per billion, which is beyond most anyone's or lab's ability to accurately measure. Others have gone to 3ppb, still not limitation.

These are controlled conditions.

If you feel PO4 does cause algae, then make sure the other variables are independent of PO4(eg, non limiting to the plants).

If you have algae, then you have not addressed that issue.

the thing I scratch my head about is why folks do not focus more on the plants, we are trying to grow those as hobbyists, killing algae is not a hobby really?

So do that, grow the plants, give them what they need.

PO4 is more volitile in Marine planted tanks, but smaller amouhjts do help and increase NO3 uptake.

Limiting PO4, places a reduced N demand on the plant.
If you slowed down the uptake of N, and were only small amount of N, then not adding PO4 would help the plants, they are much better at dealing with PO4 limitation than N deficiencies.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> the thing I scratch my head about is why folks do not focus more on the plants, we are trying to grow those as hobbyists, killing algae is not a hobby really?


I think it's hard to concentrate on growing the plants when algae is threatening to cover them completely. That is why most people are distracted with getting rid of the algae before working on the plants.


plantbrain said:


> So do that, grow the plants, give them what they need.


So, you are saying that in addition to the ferts that I already add, I should add phosphates? It is unfortunately very difficult to even attempt to try out the Tom Barr method in one of my tanks due to the difference in ferts used. The directions to add 1/4 Tsp of csm+b or k2so4 unfortunately does not mean anything to someone not using the same products. My choices are Kent Grow (trace + macros), K+, Nitro+, and Phos+ (which I don't currrently use). Any advice on setting up a test tank using Kent ferts? I have 7 tanks, 5 of which could work fine as test subjects. The other 2 are desktop that are already pretty close to 100% algae free. The Tom Barr method sure sounds like it works, so I am interested in trying it out, but I have to work with what I have available.
-Aphyosemion


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

It's pretty easy, really. Using commercial liquid for macros is really expensive (e.g. Kent grow). Go to Greg Watson's site and order your macros - monopotassium phosphate, potassium nitrate, potassium sulphate. And you don't even really need potassium sulphate. $8 and you're done for macros for a long time. Then the only other thing you dose is a micro mix with iron in it, which you probably already have in your Kent products. If not, use CSM+B or Flourish. I prefer Flourish.

I had an epiphany when I began to dose per Tom's instructions. I watched algae simply disappear in my DIY CO2 injected tank. That was a fine moment. I maintain about 2ppm phosphates in my tanks at this point. The funny thing, it seemed so counter-intuitive to dose all that stuff. My natural tendency was to try to limit nutrients to control algae. It didn't work, but EI did.

If you absolutely can't do this, you can go down to the drug store and get Fleets enema, the phosphate based one. This will provide your phosphates.

Do you have test kits? Use them to find out what levels of nitrate and phosphate you have in your tanks.

And good luck.


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

I have been testing every 2 or 3 days lately to try to get my wonderful new algae problem under control. As a matter of fact, I just tested about 20 minutes ago. My tests were thus:
75 gallon - 15ppm nitrates, .05ppm phosphates
25 gallon - 0ppm nitrates (dosed it up to about 20), 1.5ppm phos
20 gallon - 15ppm nitrates, .05 phosphates
10 gallon - 15ppm nitrates, .05 phosphates
5 gallon (low light) - 15ppm nitrates, .5 phosphates

There has to be a formula using liquid ferts. I have about $150 worth of Kent ferts in my cabinet and would like to use them before moving on to something else.
My current routine is:
Kent Grow (micros + macros) - dosed daily
Kent Nitro+ - Dosed as needed to maintain 15ppm or so
Kent K+ - Dosed once per week with water changes
-Aphyosemion


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Target nutrient levels are the same regardless of dry or liquid source. Look at the concentration for each macro and you should be able to figure how much to add if you know how much water is in your tank. Check your results with your test kits to verify.

Example: from the web site, Kent Nitro+ has 44mg/ml NO3. You will need 7ml of Kent Nitro+ to raise 10 gallons 5ppm, if my math is right. In which case, it won’t take long to go through your stock. That’s why we use dry ferts. Also, Kent is using sodium salt, which I try to avoid.

Kent isn’t giving really great info about Grow, but it looks to me like the only macro it provides is potassium. It also claims to provide carbon, so I can’t figure what is in it.


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

Yeah, after taking a second look, Grow is basically traces plus K.



plantbrain said:


> I suggest for your 50 gal tank:
> Do 50-60% weekly water change usin tap water, the good old LA tap water.
> 
> After:
> ...


Okay, I should be able to adapt this method to my current fert routine. It looks like plantbrain gave a 9 day cycle here, but it can easily be adapted to a 7 day routine. Someone who knows this method could maybe help me out here, but here is what I am envisioning.
Day 1 - Cycle the tank 50%. Add Nitro+, Phos+, and K+.
Day 2 - Add Grow (micros)
Day 3 - Scratch my butt and pace around the tank
Day 4 - Dose Nitro+, Phos+, and K+ again.
Day 5 - Dose Grow (micros) again.
Day 6 - Scratch my butt and pace around the tank.
Day 7 - Cycle and start over.

Does this sound like it agrees with the Tom Barr method? I haven't figured out what amounts to dose yet, but I can base my Nitro+ on what it takes to reach 15ppm and my Grow dosage on what I have already been using. I guess I will just use the recommended dosage for the K+ and phosphate for lack of a better idea at this point. I can always test my phosphates and see what amount brings them up to around 2ppm after that.
This routine isn't so different than the one I currently use, except I don't dose phosphates, I dose micros daily, and nitrates are just based on uptake.
-Aphyosemion


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## Bert H (Dec 15, 2003)

> This routine isn't so different than the one I currently use, except I don't dose phosphates


If that's so, wouldn't it be easier just to dose phosphates and see what happens?!!

FWIW, I have a 50 gal tank, 2.5 wpg lighting, pressurized CO2, good size fish load which are well fed daily. I do weekly water changes (50-60%). After water change, I add 10ppm NO3, 2ppm PO4, and 6ppm K. Those numbers bring my total NO3 up to 18-20ppm, my total PO4 up to 3-4ppm. (I don't know about K because I've never tested it.) I dose traces on all the other days of the week. With my fish load and feeding, I know that my NO3 will be around 10 by the time I do my next water change, my PO4 around 1.5-2. Nothing runs out, everyone's happy, except for some green spot on the glass, I don't have algae !


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

Well, I'm already making plans to pick up some Kent Phos+. Hopefully that will have a positive effect on the old algae issues. Either that, or it will be just like my worst nightmares and the algae growth will explode, filling the inside of the tank completely and spilling out onto the carpet.
-Aphyosemion


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Edit-

I see your post re 20-30ppm CO2 in the 75. Do you measure it in the afternoon?

Also, do you have a recent pic of your tank to post?


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

No, I don't measure my CO2. My calcs are based on the KH and the PH. I have a fully automated CO2 system that keeps the PH within .2.
As for posting a pic of my tank...I don't think so. I don't think the picture I want people to see is right after a huge algae bloom. Ask me again in a couple of months after I get my algae back under control. My R. wallichi had nice color and no algae on it when I left for vacation and when I came back it looked like some sort of green bush.
Oh, by the way, could someone give me a hand on calculating my fert levels in my 75 gallon tank. Using Kent Phos+ does anyone know how many ml it would take to get a tank to 2ppm per 10 gallons?
-Aphyosemion


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Give all the dilutions and such, I'd just use the dry ferts and some Flourish.

Takes 15 seconds to dose each tank
Crank to CO2.
Do the weekly water change(python style etc).

You'll not spend much time with algae after about 3 or so weeks.
Clean off all the algae and preen each weed, clean equipment of algae, clean filter, disturb old sections of substrate, plants that have been roots for more than a few months etc.

Do the water change, dose the ferts back.

You can target the same amounts using the Kent ferts...........but the ppm will be about the same.

Those tankd are very PO4 limited or NO3 limited except for the low light tank which is likely doing the best.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

Thanks for all the help, plantbrain. I haven't had to analyze my water and fert routines this closely since I got rid of my BGA a year ago. 
Based on my new observations and the ephiphany that po4 is more of just another fertilizer instead of the bubonic plague, I have come to some new conclusions. Namely, I can save a hell of a lot of time and get some free po4 in the bargain by using 50% RO water and 50% tap water. 
Second, during my analysis of my routine, I discovered that I have been underdosing my K badly. I was using the daily dose only once per week. I'm not sure where I got off on that routine, but once I started it, I never analyzed it again. 
Lastly, I noticed that my java jungle, which is the only tank that I don't moderate the p04, eats up nitrates at 10 times the rate of some of my other planted tanks. That seems to be a pretty strong argument that 0 or close to 0 phosphates really slows down usage of the other ferts.
Thanks again. I intend to move to dry ferts once my Kent supply runs out.
-Aphyosemion


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well the PO4 /NO3 observations mirro many other folks' oberservations over a decade.

So you'll be safe doing that, add more K+ is good to about 20-30ppm, plants will never need more than this amount.

That and good CO2 should make life much easier for you.
Try it and then you'll be a believer.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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