# Sorry, another ADA AS thread.



## PeteyPob (Apr 26, 2004)

In my previous tank, i had eco-complete. I really enjoyed this substrate and it was loaded with the good stuff.

I didnt find it too hard to plant, except on certain occations with HC and glosso. This was mainly because the smaller "grains" eventually make their way to the bottom and the bigger ones stay atop. So sometimes it took constant replanting for the HC and glosso to finally grab the substrate(especially with bottom dwellers). Stem plants are a big ease with eco-complete to plant in, no problems at all. My plants loved this stuff and did well ALL the time.

I completely agree with you and understand on cost issues!!

My most and probably last project(45gal) for a LONG time, i decided to go all out. I order ADA Aquasoil and Powersand. No particular reason other than the benefits you listed above and the fact that i wanted to try ADA products.

I cant say anything about flourite or SMS because i have never had too much experience with them.

If you decide to go the eco-complete route I dont think youll regret it. I havent got my project tank completely setup so Im still lacking hands on experience as far as ADA (AS & PS) goes. Just my 2cents. Good Luck on your choice!!!!


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## paradise (Dec 11, 2003)

Man, I never thought ADA Aquasoil/Powersand was as good as people said it was, but I gotta tell you, I will never setup another tank w/out it. Seriously. I dont think anything else there really compares. I have had flourite (still have in one tank) and it's garbage comparing to the Aquasoil. The ph control, built in nutrients, size uniformity, lack of fugly big pieces, easy settling, not much crap in the column, water clear after 2 hrs without washing the substrate. It's just perfect. And plants just come alive. I have never seen growth like this.

People dont know how it is till they have it. Everyone who does not have it love to justify how it's not needed, but once you try, there is no going back.


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## Marc (Oct 13, 2004)

Its sounds like cost if your biggest concern. BUT if you are considering paying for eco- ADA AS cost almost the same and probably cheaper if you compare the amount you get in one bag. 

Never tried the SMS stuff....but Ive read on the forum, it can lower KH, so it maybe worth using if you are on a budget.

1) Effect on the water, ie: kH, pH...
2) The amount of nutrients it contains
3) Look
4) Ease of planting
5) Cost

Seems like ADA fits all those things.


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## Brian A (Sep 3, 2002)

I took the plung and go AS when i set up my new 46 bowfront when I moved. It only took two bags to get about a 2-3 inch depth. I have to say, it is the easiest substrate to plant in and the results are amazing even after 3 weeks. I have seen no problems with any of my water parameters at all. I will never use another substrate again. Oh, and it looks great.


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## ringram (Jan 19, 2005)

AS certainly looks good and I'm sure grows plants quite well, but I'm using it on a new tank for the first time (just set up last week) and the water is still cloudy after 3 days. I hope it clears up. I know I've read about some bad batches of it, where people's water turned milky and didn't clear up.
Another thing to note is that when you first put it in, some granules will float and you will need to push them underwater to make them sink. I've found that planting is quite a breeze with this substrate, although some stem plants tend to come uprooted fairly easy as the granules are fairly lightweight.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

ringram,

Have you tried a diatom filter? Someone I know used one and it cleared up a little faster than without one. =)

So basically everyone is saying ADA AS is worth the ~$144 versus $30 for 100 lbs of sand or $30 for 100 lbs of SMS? =P


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## crazy loaches (Sep 29, 2006)

Eco actually costs more per volume than AS. Thats sealed the deal for me with AS, though I'll fork out a small fortune for a 240G!


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

How much is 9 liters anyway? I can't figure it out, i don't think liters is even a correct dry measurement. i tried googling it, but it doesn't recognize it.

Also, why do you guys put so much substrate in? I'm used to 2" max, but some here have 4, even 6 inches.


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## crazy loaches (Sep 29, 2006)

There is a substrate calculator up in the 'calculators' link at the top of your screen. Its doesnt have AS but you can use it to calculate eco and flourite for example. Then do your own calc with AS which shouldnt be to hard since it is actually measured in volume and not weight (which is a releif, what the heck do we care how much weight the substrate is that we are buying, were trying to fill a volume not a certain amount of weight). For example, I have run some figures for my 240g.

96"x24"x4" = 9,216 cubic inches = ~150 Liters = 

AS = 16.6 bags (17) = $442 ($26/bag)
ECO = 512# (TPT calcualtor) = 25.6 bags (26) x $18/bag (cheapest price I could find) = $468
Flourite = 320# (TPT calculator) = 21 bags @ $13(cheapest I could find it) = $273

So, AS is slightly cheaper than ECO, flourite definately the cheapest by far. If they had black flourite with a better consistant smaller grain size, I'd probably just go with that. But I want the best for the plants so I'll probably get the AS. With shipping, the AS will be more expensive than the bare tank is from glasscages.com!

Calculating substrate is so easy I cant beleive how many people have to ask. You needn't know a thing about aquariums or substrate, just elementary geometry (multiply length x width x hieght), a metric/US volume converter for AS (google it) and the calculator here on TPT for the other substrates.:wink:


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## crazy loaches (Sep 29, 2006)

dufus said:


> Also, why do you guys put so much substrate in? I'm used to 2" max, but some here have 4, even 6 inches.


That would depend on what plants you are growing. Glosso doesnt need 4". java fern needs 0". My red rubin swords roots are nearly a foot long.


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

i've had gravel with laterite on the bottom, flourite and now AS. I will never go back. It grows things so well, looks so nice, you don't have to rinse, you don't have to worry about scratching the glass and it makes my tetras and apistos soooooo happy. 

One 9-liter bag = two bags of flourite. I got 4 bags of AS for my 60 gallon (36" x 19" x 21") and used 3 1/2 bags for a substrate a good 3" high. The other half bag I'm saving to redo my 12 gallon tank one of these years.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Ah crap. Mounting support for AS.

I bet I'll be ordering the AS later today!

Did you use powersand or a thin layer of peat underneath?


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## dougiefresh (Sep 5, 2006)

epic. Don't get the powersand. 

I did and now have white rocks mixed in with my nice black soil. Looks like crap. I went really light on the PS and it still happened to me when I pulled up some plants.

One thing good to do is run activated carbon after you get it for a while to get rid of the tea stained color water.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Thanks for the tip. I have a Fluval 404 and Magnum 350 w/ DE powder. I plan on running a ton of DE powder and charcoal. =)


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

i used 3 3L bags of power sand with 2 9L bags of aquasoil to get a nice 4-5'' thick substrate and had to pull up a giant bush of crypts and didnt have any problem with pulling up the powersand. 

i think its all about how you do it and how much aquasoil you have on top. i have a full layer of powersand in my tank with no problems with replainting the tank like three times now.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

Another AS and PS user here. Its a great product, ive used other types of substrates, its the best so far.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I have a 40 gallon tank which borders on the S/M powersand. $50 for 6 liters?!! Wowza!


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

i have a 30g and probably have more then what you plan on putting in yours and it cost total about $125 -150 i believe but then again you have to pay shipping.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

It's $55 to get it shipped from either AquaForest or from ADG.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Man, these AS threads are going to be the death of me....


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

What do you mean by that? =)


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

I've been resisting being taken into the collective...my wife is already not too happy with my recent pressurized CO2 setup, Rhinox diffusor, aquascaping tools, and Fluval FX5 purchase.


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## ringram (Jan 19, 2005)

No, I haven't. I just had to order an extra canister filter to help w/ flow rate in the tank. My wife would go ballistic if I ordered *another* filter. hehe. I'm sure they work wonders though. I guess I'll wait it out and keep doing 50-75% wc's a day until it clears.



epicfish said:


> ringram,
> 
> Have you tried a diatom filter? Someone I know used one and it cleared up a little faster than without one. =)
> 
> So basically everyone is saying ADA AS is worth the ~$144 versus $30 for 100 lbs of sand or $30 for 100 lbs of SMS? =P


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Not to be a contrarian, but I'm soon switching out an AquaSoil 90 gallon back to flourite. I am hoping that Seachem will eventually come out with the "new" black flourite, or I'll top dress it the dark river gravel on top. I don't at all agree with the statement that Flourite is "garbage" compared to AS... 

Yeah, plants grow a bit faster in AS, for sure. But I have a stubborn dark red algae or some such which likes the combo of AS and my water (very soft well water). And my plants grow almost as fast,and a few grow faster in a mature flourite substrate - in my 65G. The Flourite tank is totally clear with no algae. There is some reaction with the AS and my water. I've tried many different dosing/lighting stratagems and though one can barely see it, its there on leaves and leaves a diatom type dust algae in its wake, if you stir up the plants.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Yea, I really wish Flourite came in a darker color....we also have pretty hard water here in LA so I hope the AS won't give me the algae problems it's been giving you...


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Ahh, well at least AS is perfect to soften harder water, generally. I didn't mean to knock the product; it seems almost 100% report great success with it. :thumbsup: And my plants do grow really fast with it, no doubt.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

You weren't knocking it. Everyone's feedback is what I want to take into consideration so I don't end up making one of those "n00bie" mistakes that costs hundreds of dollars.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I think folks generally think in "either-or" terms, that is not good.

Flourite is a better than plain sand, I know, I've seen the long term effects on multiple systems/sets and plant species vs plain 2-3 mm sand(w and w/o various amendments), something many newer folks have never even used
Likewise, flourite vs ADA AS is another step towards better growth.
Better= faster growth rates, something some may certainly not desire.

I fine it very interesting many folks do not try ADA AS alone, without the powersand.

Yet they then attribute their success to the combination of both.
Or is it due to the ADA AS alone?

They cannot say, so my question, is why do they persist in saying so and "it's part of the system"?:thumbsdow 

I could not say one way or the other either, so....... I tried it and found no difference in growth rates.

Initial high levels of NH4 and other issues told me right away I did not need more nutrients and certainly not in the substrate, the ADA AS is loaded.

Next I tried to see what influence water column ferts had on the set up with ADA AS and ADA AS + PS.
Again, no difference.

When I applied EI vs the ADA system, I had predictably higher growth rates with EI.


With Plain sand+EI I had less growth for some species, with Flouite+EI less species had slower growth rates than with ADA AS + EI, that had the highest growth rates of the various 3 combinations.
ADA PS had no influence on growth rates : EI + ADA AS versus EI+ ADA AS+ ADA PS.

Likewise, if you add ADA AS, which *has macro nutrients *in it, and compare it to flourite which *does not have macronutrients*, you are not comparing them on equal terms.
Anyone could predict better growth based on this single difference.:thumbsup: 
This becomes even more clear if you do not provide non limiting water column nutrients as well.:thumbsdow 

Adding Osmocoat vs PS to the ADA AS should produce similar effects based solely on nutrients, PS possesses osmocoat like material in it.
Adding some peat+osmocote ought to do the trick vs using ADA PS.

Osmocoat:
Osmocote® Azalea, Camellia, Rhododendron Smart Release® Plant Food

Soil and peat have long been used, so has kitter litter(a nice clay).
All quite successfully, but is it due to the substrate, or the water column, or both? 

*This can be traced to variations in the water column nutrient supplies, so a standard measure of water column ferts should be applied to standarize the effects of various substrates on plant growth.*

This is painfully obvious but many aquarist chose to ignore this for some reason, I'm not sure why.

All these same consitutients are used in ADA AS(Clay/Soil/peat).
PS has what? Peat, osmocoat like material, and pumice, maybe some general terrestrial ferts soaked on the pumice, but that's about it.
If the longer term nutrient source in the sediment is really your goal, then simply adding osmocote to the base layer ougght take care of things, something that will eventually dissolve and not mix in the substrate ADA AS and look all tacky or when you redo a tank after uprooting etc.

Knowing this, gives you a good base line to make predictions, understand the source of various nutrients and account for differences in growth using various substrates and water column fert routines.
Osmocote is easy to add later if you are really into substrate fertilization over time.

A little research got folks away from using all Dupla stuff and developed PMDD and other advances in the hobby. If you believe something, try and prove it wrong. Otherwise most folks would still be buying heating cables/PO4 remover.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## crazy loaches (Sep 29, 2006)

Speaking of fertilization, since AS has macronutrients in it do you alter EI in any way while using AS (w/o power sand)? Or I assume they dont leach out so they probably have no effect on the water colum, and normal EI dosing would then be ok?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

crazy loaches said:


> Speaking of fertilization, since AS has macronutrients in it do you alter EI in any way while using AS (w/o power sand)? Or I assume they dont leach out so they probably have no effect on the water colum, and normal EI dosing would then be ok?


They leach out, but you might not be able to measure them with a 5-10$ test kit that's designed for a large range. Plants act like pipes to cycle nutrients for the seediments to the water above. Say the interstitial pore water is 1ppm PO4 per day leached into the water in the sediment, the amount leached into the water column is about 0.1ppm or so per day.
This is an average rate based on natural ecosytems that are often limited.
So our rates are likely higher.

I have not altered the standard EI dosing routine in the flourite, sand or ADA AS tanks. Sand makes a nice control(oh my , what's that? :thumbsup: ). So comparing EI dosing between flourite and sand made things easy for me many years ago. Sand had it's limits, so does Flourite and perhaps we will find the limits for ADA AS and something new and better will come out later.

Such test methods make it very easy to repeat the same test in the future and produce good results. I've already gone though and addressed the various potential problems that appear with a design using flourite/sand as a model test to see what effects the water column and sediment have on plant growth.

I know about all I can know with the water column, so all that's left is seeing how much more growth can I squeeze out of the substrate with various water column concetrations of nutrients.

This depends greatly on light intensity obviously also.
Higher light, the more demand will be placed on both locations and the narrower the range becomes, at least on the lower end of nutrient concentration.

From a management perspective, you can adapt EI to most any CO2/Excel enriched system. So if you want to run a system with a leaner water column and place more nutrients into the sediment, say with soil or ADA Aqua soil, you certainly may, you'll have less growth, less O2 production, but speed of growth is not everything.

The fallacey I think many fall into here is that limiting the location or concentration to slow plant growth is a good management method, I think not, light is better, use less if you want less growth. Then if that is something you really like, try limiting CO2 by not addign any and lowering the light. Finally nutrients and start with PO4, it has the least deterimental effect on the plant.

If the light is low enough, no EI or dosing of any sort other than feeding the fish is required, although you will get better growth if you do dose regularly(say once a week or two), even on a lower light, non CO2 system.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

So, from Tom's posts...I think I've gathered a few main points:
1) ADA + PS isn't any more effective than AS alone, at least, not in the long run.
2) EI dosing + any substrate system is more beneficial than not.
3) Limiting light is the best method of limiting plant growth as opposed to limiting nutrients.

So I guess I can save some money and not buy the PS? =P


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I am trying to give you some background and how to determine whether or not such a product is good management for your own methods.
Ultimately you and others will buy and do what you want.

No one has shown me nor anyone else that an AS+PS tank vs an AS only tank that are both fairly compared(same water column conditions) are any different.

Now some ADA loyalist will cry about having to dose water column nutrients, or using EI, like it's some horrid "chore". But the ADA method suggest dosing often as well, more often than the EI method, daily in most cases.
Most folks that are considering ADA are not beginners, they tend to be accomplished or else have enough $ it does not factor in.

Whether I dose ADA KCL/ADA traces vs KNO3/KH2PO4/TMG is not going to make any difference, takes a squirt or a dash for each so I'm out 5 secs each time. The cost of KNO3/KH2PO4/TMG is radically cheaper than the ADA line of ferts. No one can argue that point.

Is NO3 from ADA any better than the chemical grade NO3?
Not as far as the plant is concerned.

So you still have to dose _something_, you still have to do regular large water changes (at least if you *really* are an ADA loyalist), so you may as well use EI as it's cheaper and you get longer life out of the substrates(less nutrient demand from them for N and P since you also supply it to the water column for leaf uptake) 

So why not add the macros to the water column and be done with it?
You already do the flushing each week.
You already dose often.

Then they want you to buy their expensive ferts and PS on top of that?
I mean does this make sense to you or is it playing on the fears that macros in the water column = algae?

I know something about that issue:thumbsup: 
So that I have no issues defending, so why else avoid it other than past myth based fears? Anyone?

It does not add up.

I've heard many of the ADA loyalist suggest that "the ADA system is new, integrated, works together" much like the Penac argument and that my or other folk's critques stifles their "learning" and does "not give the product a chance". Penac likes to say that there is so much science does not yet know.
Water vibrational hooky stuff. 

If "learning" is truly your game, then do it right.
Doing your homework, design some test that will really answer your question/s and using some basic logic are how you learn, not that hogwash.

Overlooking critical parts such as the water column nutrient levels clearly is a gaint huge omission.

I still like Flourite, aesthetics aside.
I still like sand.
I still like ADA AS.
But they are not really that equal and each has a trade off.

You can grow plants just fine in all 3 without dosing anything to the water column. But you will have better success over all if you do, better growth rates and be able to keep a wider range of plant species.

Without adding anything to the water column and/or less water changes etc:
You'd predict better growth in the Flourite vs the sand, you'd predict better growth in the ADA AS vs Flourite or sand, and the most growth with ADA AS+PS.

A few folks like such methods.
They also want slower less hands on growth.
So less light
Less CO2/none at all
Rarely ever uprooting/replanting etc

So in this case, ADA AS+PS is not a bad option.
So lazy folks, LFS's that often do not tend their tanks that much etc will benefit.

Those are some of the trade offs.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dougiefresh (Sep 5, 2006)

Great information on the substrate systems plantbrain. Very informative.

Not trying to beat the bush. But if aestetics are anything to you, dose some EI and forgo the powersand. Trust me, it will come up if you start to develop good healthy roots and ever pull things up. I've got the white stuff all over the black from pulling up 2-3 stems Eustrallis Stellata that I was trimming. These plants were in the back and I have about 3-4 inches of AS back there, so yes I have enough thickness. Like I said, they need to not make the crap white/tan.s


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## crazy loaches (Sep 29, 2006)

I suppose it depends on what plants you have. I pulled up a couple red rubin swords in my 75g with flourite, and probably about a pound or two of flourite came with the roots, even after trying to shake it as I was pulling it out. It left a crater about a foot across.

Thanks for all the info Tom, you always seem to go the extra mile and make us read lol!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Getting swords out of Flourite is very tough when they get large.
It locks together and makes it hard.
I think swords and Red tail catfish have a lot in common in the hobby

Sand is bad enough. 
The ADA product is not too bad if you are careful, but many of us are not and want to hack and clean good and not worry about pussy footing around in our tanks.

I can still do that without worry using solely the ADA AS.
Another thing you cannot really do: vacuum the substrate with ADA PS layered mix.

With ADA AS alone, I can vacuum and re set the substrate, remove all the much that builds up after 1-2 years.

If I decide to break a tank down and want to clean the ADA AS and move it to a new tank etc, not an issue. Adding a good stainless teel screen?
Why bother...........??
Add Osmocote if you want longer term ferts there. They will last as long as the ADA PS will.

I can also slope the gravel layer all the way to glass edge without wasting space for PS. PS does not add/allows for O2 in the substrate etc as claimed either, that's just out right wrong. 

O2 level is a function of the roots(they import a lot of O2), the organic matter that settles over many weeks/months from above and the bacteria that consume it and use O2 to do so.

I can have fine sand, 0.5mm in dia, 24" deep and without a lot of Organic matter, in there, the O2 levels will be the same as the top layer at 0.5 inches.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

I don't dose or do EI in my ADA tanks. I just use AS and PS, growth is good. No need to keep up with dosing or ferts. Ive tried EI here and there in one of my AS and PS tanks, ended up with algae breakouts, so I stopped. Saw no real need for it as growth was good, just a whim to see if it provided me with a benefit.
Eventually I may try out the ADA fert line when growth has been retarded, but 1 year into the soil system, I see no need yet.


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