# Matt's box of plants....60P Garden (now with 10G and 12 Long)



## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Lookin pre good Matt


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Good transformation to low tech, bro. I think guppies would be cool... you should get a bunch of tuxedo guppies. We had some in a fluval edge and they're actually very entertaining to watch. Are you going to put some Otos or shrimp for algae?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Good transformation to low tech, bro. I think guppies would be cool... you should get a bunch of tuxedo guppies. We had some in a fluval edge and they're actually very entertaining to watch. Are you going to put some Otos or shrimp for algae?


I will likely not do Otos. Shrimp, maybe. I really hope I don't need a clean up crew. Really, I may not do fish at all. 

As for guppies, at first, many fish seem more appealing. They have a behavior that isn't suited to a natural style tank but they are really fun to watch. I can get some high end ones locally and I may do so. I may just end up with some Petsmart ones. We will see where that goes. I don't expect to stock in the near future but I personally feel that too many of us over look guppies and similar fish because they are common and "beginner fish". They are common, easy to deal with, and there is a reason why you can get them everywhere.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Yeah I see what you're saying about guppies. I felt the same way about them and bettas.. But after giving them a shot, they still have an appeal about them that's unique -- behavior, appearance, etc. Maybe just stick a really nice betta in that tank. It would be like a mansion on MTV Cribs for one lucky betta.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

Dude. That looks good matt


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

*Matt's box of plants....60P low tech garden*

Large school Guppies are pretty awesome in a rimless tank. Especially if you get bright colors under a good light. They complete the plants nicely in the top area of the tank where there's open space. They also eat any gross bugs and crap lol


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Guppies are like a geometric progression. Plants don't need fish! Tank is looking good.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Yeah I see what you're saying about guppies. I felt the same way about them and bettas.. But after giving them a shot, they still have an appeal about them that's unique -- behavior, appearance, etc. Maybe just stick a really nice betta in that tank. It would be like a mansion on MTV Cribs for one lucky betta.


I like Betta's but only in a smaller tank for some reason. I am always hesitant to get a really nice Betta because the jump. I have even had 2 jump on a 10 gallon with a standard hood, with a gap only the size of a Betta. Others do not ever jump in a rimless. 

That said, I love Betta's and they are super hardy. I have never had one die without jumping. Even my last one was like 4 years old before it finally jumped.



Down_Shift said:


> Large school Guppies are pretty awesome in a rimless tank. Especially if you get bright colors under a good light. They complete the plants nicely in the top area of the tank where there's open space. They also eat any gross bugs and crap lol


Guppies are awesome. It's a shame they don't work well in a natural style tank very well because the exhibit behavior that just doesn't fit a tranquil tank. I have to see if Hydro will replace my heater before I get fish. It failed about a month ago or so and I have yet to deal with it. 

That's actually a big reason I am in no hurry to get new fish. I killed them all when the heater failed. I usually put cold water into the tank but I didn't touch the water. I failed to realize it was one of the few times a year where it was below freezing in my area and the water was fringed. By the time I noticed and put another heater in, it was way too late. 


Anyway, thanks for the compliments. The tank actually looks both better and worse in the pictures. It has more color than the pictures show but it also looks more manicured than it was. I hacked it down last night which will hopefully be the last big trim I will do. The good thing about low tech is you never have to hack your tank, just trim off growth when it gets unruly. That is a major plus in densely planted tank because everything grows at a different rate so it's hard to get everything right for more than a few days. I only hacked it down because many plants have different growth characteristics than they did under higher light/co2.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

Gorgeous tank! I hope my 60P clone looks close to as nice when I start putting it together this weekend. 

I hear you re bettas... love them! Just wish there was a reasonable way to keep them in a rimless tank. Putting a screen or even glass on a rimless kinda ruins the look...


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Here is a quick update. Honestly, this tank grows pretty slow so my updates will be few and far between. So far, everything seems to be doing fairly good in this tank, minus the R. macrandra. No surprise there but I am going to see what happens for awhile. It's in the back left corner, not that you can tell.

I need to add to the left side. I am thinking of putting some R. wallichii there or maybe Ludwigia glandulosa. Some say it's too big in this tank but I have done it before and without too much light, it can work. The downside to it is I likely have to trim the bottoms so it doesn't branch out. I think with a little more color, I will have most of what I wanted with a high tech tank, in a lower tech tank. 

I am still seeing some BGA but I think all other algae I had when high tech is gone. The BGA isn't growing, it seems to be subsiding, just not quick. Pretty good considering I haven't done anything but clean the tank since my last update, outside of a trim. No ferts or water changes (until today). 

Lastly, I did start injecting CO2. I am probably at about 1/8 the level I was injecting when high tech. I am hoping it will get some more lush growth without having the need to constantly fertilize.

Here are some new pics, my camera does what it wants so they are not the best.

Btw, it's wack imageshack is no longer free, I wish they gave some notice.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Lookin good, Matt!


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

Looks nice!

How are you injecting co2? Diffuser or reactor somewhere out of sight? I'm going to start injecting low level co2 in my otherwise fairly low tech tank, too.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> Looks nice!
> 
> How are you injecting co2? Diffuser or reactor somewhere out of sight? I'm going to start injecting low level co2 in my otherwise fairly low tech tank, too.


I use an Atomic inline. Really, the only reason for that is I like everything inline, now that I have an ADA tank. I never had any more trouble with a glass diffuser and it's easier to clean regularly, I just prefer inline.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> I use an Atomic inline. Really, the only reason for that is I like everything inline, now that I have an ADA tank. I never had any more trouble with a glass diffuser and it's easier to clean regularly, I just prefer inline.


Yeah, I'll be starting off with a glass nano diffuser just because that's what I have, but I'm likely going to try to make a Cerge reactor and move it inline, ultimately, for the same reason.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> Yeah, I'll be starting off with a glass nano diffuser just because that's what I have, but I'm likely going to try to make a Cerge reactor and move it inline, ultimately, for the same reason.


My most trusted plant friends seem to like reactors best. It's always the issue of space. I do now have some space, but I don't know how advantageous it is with the little bit of CO2 I plan to run. Glass diffusers are perfectly fine. Some people make them seem pointless but I have had great tanks where I used a glass one. I have seen more than enough _amazing _tanks with a glass in tank diffuser to not question it, especially on a tank smaller than say 60 gallons or so.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> My most trusted plant friends seem to like reactors best. It's always the issue of space. I do now have some space, but I don't know how advantageous it is with the little bit of CO2 I plan to run. Glass diffusers are perfectly fine. Some people make them seem pointless but I have had great tanks where I used a glass one. I have seen more than enough _amazing _tanks with a glass in tank diffuser to not question it, especially on a tank smaller than say 60 gallons or so.


I have no doubt the glass diffuser would suffice. (and will, at least fore a while) It's all about aesthetics, and keeping as much equipment out of the tank as possible. That's why I'm interested in a reactor. While I'm at it, the most efficient design possible seems to be the way to go (and cheap plus simple to make doesn't hurt a bit), so Cerges reactor seems like the best design I've found. Otherwise I'd look at an inline like yours.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> I have no doubt the glass diffuser would suffice. (and will, at least fore a while) It's all about aesthetics, and keeping as much equipment out of the tank as possible. That's why I'm interested in a reactor. While I'm at it, the most efficient design possible seems to be the way to go (and cheap plus simple to make doesn't hurt a bit), so Cerges reactor seems like the best design I've found. Otherwise I'd look at an inline like yours.


One nice thing about a reactor is you can run it at a low PSI. There is nothing wrong with a high PSI setup but anything that can fail will. I used regular airline tubing and check valves forever, just swapped the check valves out fairly regularly and both the tubing, and the check valves leaked. It's fine, just use a metal one with bars and the correct tubing but you have to usually order online. I would totally do a reactor if I were you. I may actually do one myself as I have gained some space by ditching my auto dosing setup.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

UGLY UPDATE.

CO2 seems to be my enemy. My BGA exploded once I started injecting CO2. Well, it's really to be expected, but frustrating. This is supposed to be a tank I can neglect without issue. 

I am going to just nuke the stuff with EM. Not a problem. Just figured I would post an update. The R. wallichii is new, kind of gives you the idea of the color of other plants. I actually am getting color the camera is not picking up well, not to mention covered in BGA. They are all kind of a "desaturated" version of high tech.

Lastly, I have had chronic surface scum forever with this and previous setups. I can't figure it out. I think it may be some mineral oil in my CO2 lines but it's a little crusty. It goes away with agitation but comes back. None of my other tanks have ever had this issue. 

Anyway, on to the pictures. I think this should subside in about 3-5 days. After that, I will do a little trim to get it a bit more lush, even though I do need to let some things grow out.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Need some anti-BGA? I can send you some if u need.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Bserve said:


> Need some anti-BGA? I can send you some if u need.


Thanks for the offer but I just bought some today.


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

jeez this must be the worst case of bga ive seen! also the surface scum I believe are bacteria, once they are in you tank they wont go away, with enough surface agitation they wont all cover the surface and form the film though. I use a eheim skim 350 in one of my tank that has it and it works perfectly.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

lamiskool said:


> jeez this must be the worst case of bga ive seen! also the surface scum I believe are bacteria, once they are in you tank they wont go away, with enough surface agitation they wont all cover the surface and form the film though. I use a eheim skim 350 in one of my tank that has it and it works perfectly.


I don't know, I am a master of getting BGA lately. I never got it until I move to my new house. I don't know if it's my water or the fact I am neglecting my tanks a lot more but I am the master of getting BGA. I don't get it in my nano, just my main tank. It was residual from when I switch from much higher light but once I upped the CO2, it took over. I am hoping after I nuke it, it won't come back but if it does, I will start having to do things like dose the tank regularly and all the stuff people normally do. I built this setup under the idea of neglect, I will see what happens. 


What's weird about the surface scum is I had it for almost 2 years now. However, my outflow pipe has less agitation, making it worse. However, I have changed the substrate out 3 times, changed the tank with substrate and thoroughly rinsed my filter and media but did not clean everything nor bleach anything. I am hesitant to put a skimmer in because I love lily pipes but on this tank, it would only change the look of the outside (or I can cut my lily because it's Acrylic). Another thing is, again, I am hoping I can go long periods of time without worrying about the tank so I either have to turn the skimmer on and off a lot, or keep up on my water level. Yes, I have become really lazy with the hobby. 

The scum didn't bother me when I was high tech because it took about a week to get bad, so I kept up on my water changes. I may get a air pump and see if that will do it for me.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Are you going to use maracyn ( erythromycin) to kill that BGA? For surface scum, an airstone would work. My 6g rimless used to have surface scum before I added a sponge filter. I used to hate those filters, but I'm setting up that tank for shrimp. Read that sponge is the way to go with shrimp. I discovered the side benefit of keeping the surface clear. On my 60P, I'm using an Eheim Skim 350. Works great, too. Last option I heard works is misting the surface with hydrogen peroxide. I've yet to try this method, but I heard it works. I'm actually going to try that soon on my 60F.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Are you going to use maracyn ( erythromycin) to kill that BGA? For surface scum, an airstone would work. My 6g rimless used to have surface scum before I added a sponge filter. I used to hate those filters, but I'm setting up that tank for shrimp. Read that sponge is the way to go with shrimp. I discovered the side benefit of keeping the surface clear. On my 60P, I'm using an Eheim Skim 350. Works great, too. Last option I heard works is misting the surface with hydrogen peroxide. I've yet to try this method, but I heard it works. I'm actually going to try that soon on my 60F.


I am dosing Maracyn. I was going to try Chemiclean for fun but Maracyn is a better bang for the buck and works so I just got that. Done it before, works fine. Not sure if it will come back or not as I am not sure the cause, but lighting intensity has dropped dramatically, new fert routine (little to none) and way lower CO2 than before. 

I will try the hydrogen peroxide method. If I can get away with no skimmer/airstone, I will be happy. The tank is dead silent, especially with the Besta cabinet so I would like to keep it that way.

Anyone know if hydrogen peroxide effects erythromycin? I probably should wait, just curious.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

There are some nice guppies nearby.

Have you tried raising your outflow a bit?
There is nothing wrong with having a decent current at the surface - plants need o2, not just co2. High co2 AND o2 throughout the tank would be my goal.

Which reminds me, I need to listen to your message 

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> There are some nice guppies nearby.
> 
> Have you tried raising your outflow a bit?
> There is nothing wrong with having a decent current at the surface - plants need o2, not just co2. High co2 AND o2 throughout the tank would be my goal.
> ...


The way this outflow works is that unless it's above the water line, it really just makes a small ripple. It a lot more gentle than a regular lily pipe. I wanted that because I knew I was doing a lot of stems and my last pipe would push things around like crazy. Raising it just doesn't do much.

I am basically trying to mimic my little 6 gallon if you remember that. That doesn't get much surface agitation at all, it's much less flow for the size. I figure since I have a CO2 setup, I should try that at the same time as an experiment. I was getting similar results as the 6 before I added CO2. It's an experiment, so far I am growing exceptional BGA.

I am liking no fish right now. It's strange but I only have one fish total right now. However, where are these guppies? Are they yours or is there something in the hood I don't know about?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

The guppies are mine and in large quantities. Some pretty nice colors too. All you can fish. There are pluses and minuses to having a tank with fish - to each it's own.

I used food dye to play with flow but even an old dog can learn new tricks. I learned a lot of them from people at TPT: next time you dose traces, dump them right in front of the outflow and watch how they get spread around the tank.

Heavy surface film kills your gas exchange. The plants are slowly simmering in their own soup.

v3


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

talontsiawd said:


> I don't know, I am a master of getting BGA lately. I never got it until I move to my new house. I don't know if it's my water or the fact I am neglecting my tanks a lot more but I am the master of getting BGA. I don't get it in my nano, just my main tank. It was residual from when I switch from much higher light but once I upped the CO2, it took over. I am hoping after I nuke it, it won't come back but if it does, I will start having to do things like dose the tank regularly and all the stuff people normally do. I built this setup under the idea of neglect, I will see what happens.
> 
> 
> What's weird about the surface scum is I had it for almost 2 years now. However, my outflow pipe has less agitation, making it worse. However, I have changed the substrate out 3 times, changed the tank with substrate and thoroughly rinsed my filter and media but did not clean everything nor bleach anything. I am hesitant to put a skimmer in because I love lily pipes but on this tank, it would only change the look of the outside (or I can cut my lily because it's Acrylic). Another thing is, again, I am hoping I can go long periods of time without worrying about the tank so I either have to turn the skimmer on and off a lot, or keep up on my water level. Yes, I have become really lazy with the hobby.
> ...


The eheim 350 doesnt need to be attached to a filter or anything, it is its own separate unit. Kinda like a powerhead/pump that sucks water from the surface. Works real great and I like the extra water flow/circulation


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

lamiskool said:


> The eheim 350 doesnt need to be attached to a filter or anything, it is its own separate unit. Kinda like a powerhead/pump that sucks water from the surface. Works real great and I like the extra water flow/circulation


Oh, no doubt, I thought you were talking about an attachment.


On that note, I probably shouldn't be use H2O2 and EM at the same time but was so tempted try spray a bit. It worked really well. I will do a full treatment after EM. Even if it isn't long term, it seems interesting. I could see that it was having some real effect because everything changed a bit so it looked like there was some real reaction going on.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I know that killing BGA with EM has been well documented before, I have done it a few times myself but I figured I would show a bit of the differences. I think I am at the 4 day point, I have done no water changes or anything. Dosing two packets per day.

On another note, I am thinking about swapping out the carpet. I was hoping that the E. tenellus would grow shorter in less light but it is seemingly growing the same height if not taller. Opposite of my experience in my low light nano. Not sure what I am going to do, I am doubting I have enough light for HC, I have never had luck with Glosso, and though I like DHG belem, I don't know if it will be the right look. Another option is HM, the problem is that it looks really bad for about a week after you trim. Can shape it in cool ways though. 

Here it is in my old 29 gallon:











Here are the updates:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Looks a ton better.

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> Looks a ton better.
> 
> v3


Yeah, the BGA really took off once I added CO2. Even at a teal green on my drop checker, it just exploded.

So, I tried to find some plants today. I went in search for Ludwigia glandulosa but no luck. I should have just gone to Albany on my way home but I was tired. My friend was looking for corals so I didn't go to my spot. 

I think Ludwigia glandulosa on the left side corner, HM or whatever foreground I choose, and some hygrophila compacta or similar to fill out the middle left and I may be pretty much done. 

I also have the RGB LED's from the last try if anyone remembers. My light was too high then to mount them over the tank and have any noticeable effect. Now I can mount them above and get a cool effect but need to find a way to make the look good.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

29 gallon is a beautiful! I think your low tech is coming along too, still dosing the same?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> 29 gallon is a beautiful! I think your low tech is coming along too, still dosing the same?


Thanks, that was my first tank. I feel like I shot myself in the foot first try because that came out so well and was easy.

I am not dosing the same as my 29 on this, I am dosing the same as I have since I went low tech on this tank which is about one day of EI per 2 weeks. 

On that note, just did a kind of major trim and moved a few things around. I was going to let this go really "jungly" before a trim but after looking at my 29 journal, I am remembering how I got things to look a certain way.

I am now thinking about adding fish. I need to contact Hydro to see if they will replace my failed inline. I don't have a box or receipt so who knows what will happen. I want another but I am thinking about really simplifying this and taking out my heater, and my UV. Just a filter and lily's may be my next thing, throw a in tank in when need be.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

Holy crap that 29 is hella lush. It's awesome.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I just put pictures of my old 29 gallon to make myself feel like I know something about this hobby haha. My and my mentor (OVT) talked about how it lacks any mid ground, one thing I really want to add in the 60P. One thing about that tank, I was not only eager to succeed, I also could baby sit it. Though I didn't have major problems until the end (2+ years after I started it), I didn't have the responsibility I have now, one reason I am not trying to go too far.

One thing I just noticed that is meaningful to me. Some people on the board, who do really well, will attribute every single problem to CO2. I see my drop check not in the yellow, which has negatively affected my experience with fish, and realize, CO2 just may be something I need to reconsider. I am liking my results at a low level, maybe just up it to a reasonable level and adjust everything around it, rather than get the highest level I possibly can. Sorry, had a few, thinking out loud.


I just emailed Hydor, hoping they replace my heater under warranty. Only reason they may not is I have absolutely no record of purchase, which is reasonable on their side. Don't even have the box. Once I get an idea of that, I have decided to add fish, either way. I have a heaters and I can disguise an in tank, there were two in my 29.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I had a slow day today, decided to clean up a bit. I am really trying to figure out exactly where to go, as soon as I get back into this, I always want to change things around. I have to send my heater out to Hydor so I decided, I am going to de-tech my tank fully. I want to get rid of my insanely long inline setup. I am going to ditch the heater and my UV for now. 

On one side, it will be high tech/high end...ADA, lily's, Eheim, CO2, Aquasoil. On the flipside, it will be low tech, low end, low light, heater less, low ferts, etc. I have talked about doing something like this for awhile. I am hoping to have little maintenance in the tank, but also with the filter, short hoses, easy disconnection, etc. 


I also feel like more people should post up post trim pictures. My tank got a serious hair cut the other day. I am hoping this is where it starts to get manicured.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Have you solved your surface scum issue?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Have you solved your surface scum issue?


Yup, actually, did a light spray of H2O2, but I was concerned since I was dosing EM. Even that one little spray has cured the whole thing, at least for the time being.

Funny enough, it kind of pisses me off because I have had it for like 4-5 years. I think because every time I started a new setup, I wanted to keep the filter seeded. I have tried many things, a skimmer, a HOB, manually removing with a paper towel, always came back pretty quick if I changed things up. One spray and it's been going good for almost a week with no signs of return. I am keeping a spray bottle in my stand if it returns.

I am actually wondering how much it contributed to my high tech issues. I have so much more movement at the top of the tank now. I am thinking that it may have caused some decay of the plants, which caused BGA, which caused growth issues. I don't really know.

I know you were thinking about giving this a shot. One spray and mine was done. Highly recommended and cheaper than a skimmer.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Yeah I was actually going to tell you that I finally tried the h2o2 spray. Sprayed three of my tanks and the next day the scum was gone. I was actually surprised because I was skeptical at first. I also tried the paper towel method years ago -- h2o2 is so much easier. Can't believe the solution was a simple h2o2 spritz.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Yeah I was actually going to tell you that I finally tried the h2o2 spray. Sprayed three of my tanks and the next day the scum was gone. I was actually surprised because I was skeptical at first. I also tried the paper towel method years ago -- h2o2 is so much easier. Can't believe the solution was a simple h2o2 spritz.


Hey, I didn't know for 5 years. I would not have known if you didn't let me know. Probably one of the best things I have learned in many years about this hobby:thumbsup:


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

So... Is it simply straight up Walgreens hydrogen peroxide in a spray bottle, spray lightly and call it good?

I can imagine a small amount would definitely have zero impact on the tank, since a good bit more is used for the one-two punch algae control technique, which is safe for most inhabitants (a couple of warnings, but again, much higher dose, I'd think).


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

Yessss. My initial fix was h2o2 as well. Quick dose with the filter running. Made the surface super clear and was the best solution other than surface agitation / manually removing.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> So... Is it simply straight up Walgreens hydrogen peroxide in a spray bottle, spray lightly and call it good?
> 
> I can imagine a small amount would definitely have zero impact on the tank, since a good bit more is used for the one-two punch algae control technique, which is safe for most inhabitants (a couple of warnings, but again, much higher dose, I'd think).


Exactly what I did. Honestly, I sprayed just a touch because, again, since I was dosing Maracyn (EM), I wasn't sure if Hydrogen Peroxide would have any effect. If I had to guess, it would say it was about 0.5-1 ML. Given the fact that most people consider 17ML up to even 51 ML is a safe dose, I was really surprised.

I guess my point is, I would not only consider this very safe, it also would have been back where it used to be at this point and there is nothing. It also worked very fast, 90% of it was gone in minutes. 

On top of that, mine got so bad after many years that surface agitation really didn't do the trick anymore so even with my pipe above the water line, I still wasn't making progress. I have tried skimmers/HOB's in the past in a day or two after I took them off, the stuff started coming back. I never have had surface scum on any other tank so I am really happy Brian brought this suggestion up because I had been fighting, gave up, and can now see some of my plants really perking up. That also may be due to the BGA going away but the BGA has been on and off, not constant where the scum was constant.

Anyway, highly recommended.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, I was wondering if someone could help me with my thoughts. 

I am kind of back tracking in my high tech adventures. I did well on my first and they progressively got worse. At the same time, I also started getting this surface scum that got progressively worse.

So, my last 3 or 4 attempts, they always started off fine, then I would get BGA. After that, I would start to get green dust and green slime on the glass. This would coincide with the surface scum. 

I now see just how much the water moves at the top. I am just wondering, could the surface scum be _really_ detrimental to a tank, especially with these types of algae, without other serious issues? 

One thing I was thinking that the lack of O2 exchange may have caused some of my more fragile plants to melt. That would add organic matter (which I need to clean up after my last EM treatment tomorrow). The BGA sucks up a lot of nutrients, I believe, which could cause other algae to occur.


My reason for asking is that if this one problem compounds everything else, I may have been chasing my tail for a long time. It also may make me reevaluate high tech tanks if my problem may have been simple but caused major issues.

My last few tries, I got all the negatives of high light, high CO2. Algae grew fast and took over quickly. Plant growth was leggy, fairly slow, etc.

Now I know plenty of other things can cause this but I have noticed by just treating the BGA, and dealing with the surface scum, a few of my plants have colored up quite well on the little bit of new growth I have had, impressive considering many would use this light for only low tech tanks. 

I am only thinking about this because if my high tech failures were that simple, I feel I owe to myself to try again. I am not really willing to go there yet, just kind of thinking a loud.


On a side note, I cleaned my inflow pipe. All I can say is....Gross.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Simplify things and take it one step at a time. That's what I did with my tank and it didn't turn out so bad


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Bserve said:


> Simplify things and take it one step at a time. That's what I did with my tank and it didn't turn out so bad


Well, that's the plan. I am just kind of trying to figure out my past woes because I can already seem improvement from little things.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

talontsiawd said:


> Well, that's the plan. I am just kind of trying to figure out my past woes because I can already seem improvement from little things.



Look at others' tanks and see what they did right, and use that as your most important inspiration, rather than your past wrongs.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Bserve said:


> Look at others' tanks and see what they did right, and use that as your most important inspiration, rather than your past wrongs.


Well, that's kind of the problem. I see great tanks with either 2 or 4 bulb T5HO, same substrate, similar dosing, and though they are getting the results I once got, I am not getting the same results I used to, nor what they are getting. Just trying to figure out if I had an issue that I didn't think would matter that became more problematic than I would have thought.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

talontsiawd said:


> Well, that's kind of the problem. I see great tanks with either 2 or 4 bulb T5HO, same substrate, similar dosing, and though they are getting the results I once got, I am not getting the same results I used to, nor what they are getting. Just trying to figure out if I had an issue that I didn't think would matter that became more problematic than I would have thought.



Maybe it's the water.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I doubt it's the water.
I think that the surface scum is underrated in how much damage it can cause. For a more extreme example, put clear plastic wrap across the top and you now are pretty close to a closed system. Except for light and temp, everything stays in, stewing slowly. Add to that already weak / decaying plants and you get your results.

I wonder how much light that stuff reflects and what, if any, light spectrums get filtered out. Given our luck...

An interesting question, where does that stuff comes from?

I have that film on 2 of my lower end light tanks. I do not recall getting much of it, if any in my small no filter vases. 

In short, ALL of my filtered tanks have significant surface agitation. In two tanks that have easily clogged filters, I can see the first warning signs of reduced agitation: plants just don't look right, I find more dead snails, and yes, the first signed of various algae.

Every no-flow tank I have (up to 6 now) i have decent snail population AND floaters. With no artificial water movements, the snails could have easier time clinging to the scum. Floaters might have easier time using up the stuff in the film. Or both.

v3


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I tend to think that surface scum is related to bacteria and filters. I find spraying it with h2o2 is merely a temporary fix. Cleaning the filters regularly, once a week when there are problems seems to help with the bacteria that thrive on o2. Keeping the bacteria that thrive on the o2 healthy seems to be the key. Since you are killing off the bacteria right now there will be a whole series of bacteria cycles going on.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Thanks for the opinions/info. I know for myself, cleaning my filter constantly didn't solve my issue, one reason I am so happy about the H2O2 treatment. As said, it got so bad that even a ton of surface agitation, skimmers, and HOB were temp solutions on there own. They worked fine for however long they were on but once off, everything came back in a matter of days. Meaning, they helped but didn't really get rid of any of it. 

The lack of gas exchange is where I am inclined to believe it could do the most damage as I have experimented with lighting quite a bit here. 

I will have to see progress over time but if I see some things I was struggling with go away, then I may be inclined to going back to a T5HOx2 setup with higher CO2. I am going to give it a week to compare, not that if results are good I will instantly change over but I think a week without the scum on top will be enough time to give a good indication of how it may have effected my tank.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, since I can actually take pictures from the top, I figured I would try and show some of the new color. The AR never had much color, the Sunset is just coloring up more. The Wallichii is new but seems to get more and more color everyday.

Remember, this light is not very strong.

Sorry I am updating this so much, plenty of nicer tanks, just trying to document as I go as it seems like between the BGA and surface scum, things are improving rapidly.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

There you go 

Your sunset looks better then mine.
The moment brown hygro starts growing 10" per day, you are all set.

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> There you go
> 
> Your sunset looks better then mine.
> The moment brown hygro starts growing 10" per day, you are all set.
> ...


Well, that is not a good indicator plant IMO, the less red I have, the more pink it is. The more red I have, the more green it is. However, I have yet to get great color out of the AR so between the two, and the wallichii doing well, I think I am getting somewhere.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Hey Matt,

I enjoy the updates, the more the better. Its nice to read through detailed progress and gain insight into different tanks. With that said, I'm getting the feeling low-tech doesn't mean low difficulty. 

I never done a low tech but maybe I can give you some advice if you like to venture back into Co2. I seen your 29 gallon, you can grow plants, its' could another factor that is over looked that causing this.

Have you tried cutting off all the older growth and replanting the good ones? For example, in my experience, I never wait for a stem plant to recover. Once the bottom is rotting or thin, I cut the top and replant. I also vacuum the top layer of the substrate, I never deep vacuum unless I'm replanting.

For fertilizers, its a toss up. Low tech wise, I don't know enough to comment on that but for high tech, it's Co2 depend. You already know this, so I'll skip over it. What I notice about your tank, and again maybe because it's low tech, but for high tech, I would not have any debris on the top layer of the substrate. If dirt isn't falling through the aquasoil, then its clog. Focus on getting a really good colony of bacteria by increase the O2. I used to think cleaning the canister filter was just advice people throw around when they don't know what the cause is, but it really does help- a lot.

I hope I'm not sounding like some "know-it-all", I'm far from that. I'm learning new things in this hobby too. I'm just genuinely interested in this mystery. I mean, from a beautiful 29 gallon to a mystery problem. I think this is a good case to explore.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Hey Matt,
> 
> I enjoy the updates, the more the better. Its nice to read through detailed progress and gain insight into different tanks. With that said, I'm getting the feeling low-tech doesn't mean low difficulty.
> 
> ...


First off, I may have been in the hobby for a long time but I have only had one high tech tank that was successful, and was successful for a long time, but crashed mysteriously and I never got it down. Trust me, with high tech in particular, I am not the expert, you and many others are so you are not coming off as a "know it all" by any means. 

I will say, some other "know it all" types have lead me down a path that just lead to problems. I never had issues with a CO2 deficiency, for example, my ferts never seemed to be a problem, but the second I had trouble, I focused almost all my attention on CO2, trying to get as close to the tipping point of my fish living or not and getting as close to that as possible without killing anything. Now, I found that spot, and was able to not gas my fish but I had a lot of trouble adding new. I started taking ferts really seriously too. 

I really don't know what happened, I think it was likely my substrate and not being around to really study my tank to verify what could be problematic. I think later on, it was a "know it all" mentality of my own, I have been there, done that so I forgot most of what I knew and continued to have issues. For example, my plants seemed to really wake up on this setup once I got the surface scum under control, something I wouldn't have guessed was a big issue, but it sure makes sense now that I realize just how bad it was. 


I actually don't know what to call this tank because it's low CO2, low light, but not sure if it's even low tech.

A true low tech tank is actually pretty easy, assuming you actually have the right light, the right plants, the right substrate, and to a certain extent, the right filter. I find filtration far less of an issue with low tech but better flow always seems to help. It's an exercise in planning more than anything. However, once I added CO2 to this tank, I saw BGA blow up and that makes a lot of sense to me. One thing to take into account on this tank, in particular, is 100% of the issues I have had thus far were from the high tech stage. It seems to be coming together but the next problem may arise soon.

I just don't want to turn anyone off low tech because I have gone low tech twice on this tank so far and found that most my issues resolved themselves almost instantly, outside of the BGA and surface scum. Once I figured out low tech, I found it quite easy to have a long term setup with zero algae from start to finish. This tank will be a bit different, I have upped the CO2 a bit more recently, and I may eventually go higher light, or at least more modern. Once LED's that function the way I want come out, I am going to strongly consider that. I thought it may be another year, sans the high tech expensive reef lights but it may be this month, though I will let others test it for me before I buy, haha.

Lastly, I can't get past the need to experiment and with this tank, I have enough equipment to do so. Experimentation often teaches you, but, it's not always going to show you an easier way, it's often a lesson in "learning the hard way".


That said, the experimenting and learning put me right back into the hobby when I felt I needed a break. That's a good thing. 

So, we will see how it goes. If I can make a lower light tank with no algae but keep fast growth, with the right selection of plants (some will be swapped out), I will have what I always wanted.


On that note, I have always done the hack from the top, keep the bottom. I may use some plants in this tank that will need the opposite to work in this tank. It will actually be a first. However, to get the desired look from many others, I kind of designed it around the cut the top and leave the bottom technique. That is the only way this particular setup will look mature. 



I thank you for your advice, and appreciate you following this. I know my tanks have been far from interesting as of lately. This tank may not be everyone's cup of tea but I am pretty sure, at least in the short run, if things keep going they way it has been going, I will have something fun to look at. The irony of that is...I kind of forgot a fun to look at tank is really the point, and we all get there at some point, for some amount of time:icon_redf :red_mouth


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, not a lot has changed but my tank has been so clean lately that I felt the need to take some pictures. As you can see, I now have some guppies. I bought 4 to see how they would do with no heat, seems fine, one jumped though.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, here is my "sad" update. 

I started trimming my E. tenellus since new growth was different from the old setup. I just wanted uniformity. I knew some of my stems had suffered from my last setup but I notced many stems were not doing well. I noticed some of my unknown rotala wasn't doing well at the bottom. Trimmed that a bit. The I felt the need to trim my Hygro Brown, same issue, less of it. The that showed me the bottom of my L. aromatica, really bad. I trimmed all old plants down quite a bit. 

I don't know which is going to recover and which won't. I didn't save the tops because I would rather start with new plants if they don't recover. 

I also released just how much decaying matter I have in the tank so daily water changes/vacuuming is in my future. 


One odd thing. Some plants are getting good color but it almost changes daily. One day my R. Wallichii will look really great, the next, it's average. Same with my Alternanthera reineckii, it will have a deep pink and the next day, the growth is more yellow. Why I think it's odd is it comes and goes but I am not dosing so I don't really get it. 

Anyway, fun pic, even if everything comes back strong, I just added about a month before this grows back in to the top as I want.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Not a sad update at all, I think you're on the right path. The decaying matter really messes with the tank's parameter, which makes dosing a guessing game at best. I think by removing it, the tank is will be a lot more stable which lets the plant adapt to something more consistent. 



The changing colour is something I experience as well. Its usually due to me messing around with different dosing level. Once everything is stable and you dose the same amount, it will be uniform.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Not a sad update at all, I think you're on the right path. The decaying matter really messes with the tank's parameter, which makes dosing a guessing game at best. I think by removing it, the tank is will be a lot more stable which lets the plant adapt to something more consistent.
> 
> 
> 
> The changing colour is something I experience as well. Its usually due to me messing around with different dosing level. Once everything is stable and you dose the same amount, it will be uniform.


Yeah, I think it was necessary to trim back that hard, it's just one thing after another since I got my 60P I swear. I hope everything recovers but if not, I will have to take a trip to Albany or AFA in SF...or OVT's house. I hope this is the last of my tank woes for now because I felt like I was finally getting somewhere, only to have to trim things back. 

As for the color, I have had things change color over some period of time but this is likely daily differences. I probably just need to start dosing on a regular basis, even though at this light/CO2 level, I am pretty confident that between the AS and feeding the fish, I don't really need to dose regularly. It's always a good back up though.


One cool thing is my guppies eat algae. I have had guppies that picked at it but these really go at it. Not that I had much in the tank but all the residual stuff on the lower leaves is totally gone. Thinking of getting some more soon but I need to decide if I want to breed or not first.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

I like the idea of new plants once a major overhaul is done. I found it was faster to trim and wait for new growth than to wait for the plants to adapt. 

I was reading some ADA magazine and it says that the "energy" will be redirected to new growth rather than the plants trying to recover the existing rotting growth. 

So I guess, I'm in favour for you to visit AFA or OVT's place for some new plants. Are you thinking of a carpeting plant? This might sound strange but HC Cuba can thrive in medium light with just excel. You won't get super compact growth but it will carpet.

I never heard of guppies eating algae, mollies yes but guppies? Did you mean they just gaze on it?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Well, I shouldn't have to worry about much algae as the plants recover due to the lower light levels but we will see. I need more plants regardless as there are a few gaps so it's just what I can find. In the short run.

I am going to see how the E. tenellus grows back after the trim. It was getting a little long but it's also getting a nice red color so I am on the fence. If I don't do that, I am on the fence as well. HC or HM is the likely candidates. 

The guppies have been eating all the residual algae that was left over from high tech on the lower leaves. I am not sure they would make a great clean up crew on a bad tank but if I can keep it minimal, they do seem to go for anything on the plants, don't touch the glass at all but a nice, unexpected result.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Have you tried Glosso, Matt? 

I know it might not be as pretty as HC Cuba but its less of a Co2 hog in my experience. There is also MicroSwords but they take forever to grow, even with a high tech. 

Guppies are pretty nice, I like the wide range of colours. Its funny because my tank is nearly a year old and I haven't brought any fish beside the Otos. I like the fancy tail Guppies, they are a nice size fish for the 60P. 

Have you ever seen those "neon" guppies? I remember seeing a tank with glowing guppies, much like neon tetras, they had a shine to them under actinic blue light. I can't seem to find them at all now, I think it might of been just the lights.

By the way, what that red stem plant in the left background? Is that Rotala Wallachill? If it is, I don't know how you mange to grow that in low tech tank. It refuses to grow in my high tech, very strange plant.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I have tried Glosso before. I don't know, I just never liked it and never found it as easy as HC for that matter. On my last try, no matter what light, it would just grow up, even on a little out door DSM container. That was the nail in the coffin for me, at least for now. I would do HM over glosso, even though it's more work trimming. 

As for guppies, they have been a fish I always overlooked. I bought a few for my wife's 6 gallon and really liked them. I don't really know enough about them to get more yet as I may or may not breed them and want to wait. I like the fancy tails too, they didn't have any when I went last time. I can actually get some crazy exotic guppies but they are really pricey. I kind of want to try to breed some and see what that is all about but I also know that can quickly get out of hand.

Never seen neon guppies. Are they like Glo Fish? If so, I probably can't get them in Cali, no genetically modified pets here. If they are naturally bread, I may but never seen them.

That is in fact Rotala Wallachill. I have actually found it to be a really easy plant myself, in both low tech and high tech. My wife's tank is true low tech and it still does well and gets good color. It's one of my favorite plants. Even some of the stems that looked really too far gone from my high tech fail tank have come back strong. Don't let that fool you though, I don't know how many times a plant was said to be easy for me and I had no luck, while on the flip side, a plant was supposed to be hard and it was really easy. 


I think I need to change the name of the thread by the way.

"Matt's 60P-A conversation between Matt and Tony"


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Hmm I've seen some genetically modified fish here :/ 

And I LOL'd at that last comment :>


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Bserve said:


> Hmm I've seen some genetically modified fish here :/
> 
> And I LOL'd at that last comment :>


I have as well, and though most were at little weird shops in SF, I have seen some in just regular shops in LA area (SGV) as well. However, they are not really easy for me to get, that's for sure.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

So hearing all this talk about carpeting plants, is it official... are you revisiting high-tech? I think you should time it when the Ecoxotic Sat+ on steroids comes out. But if you want to do the jump to LED sooner, then you can't go wrong with a BML. 

BTW, I've been eyeing up some cobra endlers for my 60F. Similar to guppies... well, I think they're bred from them. I had a few tuxedo guppies in our fluval edge. I'm actually quite intrigued with guppies as I used to dismiss them, along with bettas, as nothing special due to being omnipresent. But after getting them just to get them, they have an appeal that's unlike any other. 

But if you go high tech, try ET or UG. Great plants. Although ET has been touchy in my experience. But when it gets healthy and grows, it's very nice looking. Reminds me of a mini Star. Repens.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> So hearing all this talk about carpeting plants, is it official... are you revisiting high-tech? I think you should time it when the Ecoxotic Sat+ on steroids comes out. But if you want to do the jump to LED sooner, then you can't go wrong with a BML.
> 
> BTW, I've been eyeing up some cobra endlers for my 60F. Similar to guppies... well, I think they're bred from them. I had a few tuxedo guppies in our fluval edge. I'm actually quite intrigued with guppies as I used to dismiss them, along with bettas, as nothing special due to being omnipresent. But after getting them just to get them, they have an appeal that's unlike any other.
> 
> But if you go high tech, try ET or UG. Great plants. Although ET has been touchy in my experience. But when it gets healthy and grows, it's very nice looking. Reminds me of a mini Star. Repens.


I have my ears posted for news on the Ecoxotic Sat+. However, not ready to go high tech right yet. I am injecting CO2 but at such a small level that it doesn't matter. I am going to bump it, maybe tonight, and see what that does. 

The E. tenellus I have doesn't need more than I have, I have a feeling HM won't. HC may. I am doing my Tom Barr lately and posting up old tanks but here is an example of a totally low tech, no CO2 10 Gallon I did awhile ago with HC. Many are surprised what you can do with low tech if you just are willing to experiment. I had some pearling too. Now, I will admit that Tom Barr's tanks always look great, mine, not so much lately haha. 










Journal:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103106


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Sup Matt

That old scape looks great, I especially like the rock placement. I see you stuck with 5 rocks, an idea "iwagumi" number according to ADA, intentional or unintentional? 

Any change since bumping the Co2?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Sup Matt
> 
> That old scape looks great, I especially like the rock placement. I see you stuck with 5 rocks, an idea "iwagumi" number according to ADA, intentional or unintentional?
> 
> Any change since bumping the Co2?


Um, I didn't really like the rocks, nor had the eye for it so it was the most attractive of all my unattractive options at that time. I "played it safe" because I got sick of playing with rocks for hours and hours and not getting what I wanted to because the rocks were not the most attractive.


Um, not much has changes with the CO2 bump. I am loosing some color in the Wallichii which plays into one of my low tech theories. That is that basically, the slower something grows, the more light it is exposed to compared to how much it grows.

Basically, if it grows half as fast, it has twice the exposure, time wise, to the same amount of grow if it was growing twice as fast. Makes sense in my head.

The biggest change is I am really board again. Big trims mean long recovery. That always wants me to through some more light on the thing. Then I remember that it didn't work last time so I have to change my attitude and not be lazy and then I am like, "but I want to be lazy" and then I make music and forget I have a fish tank until someone reminds me. Which reminds me, I am due for a water change and still haven't sent my Hydro inline out for warranty replacement. Or cleaned my filter. Which is probably why I shouldn't have more light. Which brings me back to being lazy. Which makes the tank boring.

You see what you just did?


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

I think it's easier for people with a creative background to create pleasing scapes, for the rest of us, it's trial and error. Or maybe just sticking to a list of rules set out by ADA. 

Your theory does make sense, I never had a low tech to compare results with though. What you guys do when you see a Co2 def or something else going wrong? Do you lower the light or the exposure time? 

Come back to the darkside, hit up OVT house for some plants and go high tech again!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> I think it's easier for people with a creative background to create pleasing scapes, for the rest of us, it's trial and error. Or maybe just sticking to a list of rules set out by ADA.
> 
> Your theory does make sense, I never had a low tech to compare results with though. What you guys do when you see a Co2 def or something else going wrong? Do you lower the light or the exposure time?
> 
> Come back to the darkside, hit up OVT house for some plants and go high tech again!


With low tech, my basic rule is if it doesn't grow well under limited light, I toss it. Many things actually grow pretty well under low light, it's just slow. Part of slow means that deficiencies come slowly. 

Honestly, you have a tank that is CO2 deficient by nature. It's weird because you treat it the opposite. CO2 comes from water changes and you actually limit water changes because if you do them often, it disrupts the CO2 balance by the fact you keep adding it and then it tapers off, over and over. So you actually want to keep it from fluctuating more than you want to add it to the tank. Way opposite of high tech. 

In the same vein, the algae should come slower, given you have a pretty balanced setup. I have actually had many tanks where I would call them zero algae tanks, I mean maybe some GDA on the glass that needs to be cleaned bi-annually. My 60P is not there yet, but that's the only algae I am getting. Don't get me wrong, an unbalanced low tech tank can have terrible outbreaks and even a balanced can get them. Introducing plants with algae is problematic as well.




As for high tech, I am always considering it. I am still going to wait it out until I feel this tank is "sorted", both in it being balanced and it growing in. That's how my 29 gallon started and it was my most successful tank. I hate to say it but I think I could throw on another Coralife NO fixture and be right where I need to be. I just don't like the look. I had two more and basically gave them away, one not so long ago. I still have my old light if I want to go T5HO, but I am liking the LED idea.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

There some really nice LED fixtures out there. Even the old school TH50 fixture makers are coming out with LEDs. Giesemann got some new led fixtures, too bad it's way way way expensive.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, after not posting for awhile...I am back.


Nothing really significant, it just takes time. All the bad/decaying growth from my old setup took a long time to recover. Luckily I was out of town so I didn't have to sit and wait.

This isn't quite my ideal setup, I do get some algae which, of course was better than my last journal on the same tank but with the changes, I was hoping for none. I get it on the glass, a bit here and there but nothing too bad. I may get some algae critters.


It's not exactly there but much closer. It's weird going off a plan I set up almost 9 months ago and only now can I see what I pictured. That said, I am fairly happy with where it is going. Here are some pics...


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Looks much better, Matt. More lush and clean.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, new update. My heater malfunctioned awhile ago. I was too lazy to send it out to Hydor for awhile and my guppies have breeded. For that reason, I decided to pull both the heater and UV. At the same time, I decided to bleach the glassware. Flow is better without the equipment inline and I didn't clean the filter so I think I increased my flow quite a bit. On the other side, I think my CO2 is leaking which is not important for my setup, but I do want to up it so I have to trouble shoot. I think it's just the tubing but I will have to see when I have time. 

Not much has changed, other than a trim and it will likely just look the same for long time. I will add some plants but with limited space, I have to love it. If (or more likely when) I go back to high light, things may change but I am happy enough for now. there are some plants I will pull that grow too fast, some plants I will keep, etc.

One thing I may try out is having a longer photo period 2 days per week. I run a split photo period of 5 on, 4 off, 5 on, which works for me very well as I work at home. Lately, I find myself busy and turn on the lights in the off period so coloration gets better. I don't want to run a 12-15 hour photo period everyday but my timer allows me to do it on one day, I can probably make it do 2 if I want.


Here are the pics, I am happy my guppies are breeding (for now, that may become a headache), I am happy my tank is clean, and it's mostly what I want, just needs some time to fill in.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

Looks good dude. Glad your guppies are breeding. They must be happy to have that tank as a home.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, here is where I am at as of today. I am getting a little green an brown algae on the glass as well as a pretty minor amount of GSA here and there. I think some snails should take care of that but I was hoping at this stage that algae would be out of the picture.

I am also having the same trouble that I did with my first 29 gallon. I just can't get a decent midground in place, the 60P is just a touch too tall for my tastes. I tend to like tanks that are the same height as depth like a 20 long or 90P. I think some Anubus, Blyxa, an HM bush or similar will work. 

The other thing is though I am getting some decent color now, considering the light I am using, I am still not exactly happy with my plant selection. Again, I probably have to go high tech (which still is a consideration for the future), to really get outside of this. I can think of maybe 2 plants that should get decent color but I would love a collection of small leaf Rotala in patches. I have done this before and I find that just planting about 5 stems all in the same place will eventually make a pop of color here, pop of color there. 


So, here are new pics, just about to trim it back a bit. Hoping it will look fairly manicured after this trim, though the right side needs to fill in a bit.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

No picture update...I have decide to inject CO2 again at high levels.

Well, actually, I decided to inject CO2 in general because I was at such a low bubble count, I never even thought I had a leak. 

I am super about to give up on the Atomic Diffuser I am using. When I was using glass ones, I never had a single leak I can think of. It seems like every time the system isn't running, once I start again...Leak. I fixed the first, found a second. Fixed the second, found the 3rd. This has been going on for 24 hours. I was about to tear down my post body setup and decided to lower the pressure and go in tank. Well, found one more, figured at that point, try it again, leak free for 4 hours. 

Man, so frustrating. I can't really blame anyone since I build the reg but, again, never any issues at 10 PSI, they get seemly endless at 40 PSI when I haven't been running CO2. At this point, I have no idea how long I have not been running any CO2.

Ironically, I though I had an algae increase once I turned the CO2 back on. CO2 does not kill algae, which some often think, and can really cause it to go wild. However, I don't think this is the case, as I obviously had a leak where I was not running CO2 for who knows how long.

Anyway, next plan of action is to inject CO2 at about 30PPM or so, whatever doesn't stress the fish out and what not. We will see what a lower light fixture and high CO2 does for now. Then I will decide if I go high light or not. Well, I think I likely will do, just choosing when, and if I use my T5HO x4 fixture or go LED. Anyone need an Aquaticlife T5HOx4 24 inch fixture to fund my LED purchase


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Good time to up your ferts.

v3


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Nice progress! Its much more lush and livelier. What kind of Co2 system do you have? Is the atomic the one from GLA? I seen some copy cats of atomic diffusers and they are horrible. I was given a free "atomizer" but it was just a air stone that was green. 

If you're looking for the best price/performance, the Fluval diffusers are 10 bucks and are solidly built. The downside is how big and ugly they are.

Any close up of those fancy guppies?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> Good time to up your ferts.
> 
> v3


Yup, I will. I will have to get advice tomorrow from you on how to proceed, you always offer immense help.



FlyingHellFish said:


> Nice progress! Its much more lush and livelier. What kind of Co2 system do you have? Is the atomic the one from GLA? I seen some copy cats of atomic diffusers and they are horrible. I was given a free "atomizer" but it was just a air stone that was green.
> 
> If you're looking for the best price/performance, the Fluval diffusers are 10 bucks and are solidly built. The downside is how big and ugly they are.
> 
> Any close up of those fancy guppies?


My actual regulator is basically a "weed growing" setup I adapted. I don't know how appropriate it is to say that on this board, I don't smoke it, but it was given to me and I put a Fabco needle valve on it and it works fine. 

My diffuser is the actual GLA diffuser but I am not sure if I am convinced they are any different than the ones from HK. I haven't had many problems with the actually diffuser, just the working pressure and the leaks. Again, I put it all together so I can't complain but I never had issues before this so it's pretty frustrating.

I will just buy a glass diffuser if I go that route, but because I ditched my inline heater, UV, and autodoser, I can fit a reactor now so I may try that.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Any close up of those fancy guppies?


Sorry, I missed this. Can't get closeups with my camera, I am literally using a point and shoot that is like 10 years old, it just can't get good pictures without a flash. I keep telling myself I will get a new camera but lately, I rarely use it for anything other than this journal so we will see when that happens haha. They are pretty generic though, just Fancy Guppies from Petco.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, so CO2 has been upped to lime green on drop checker, it seems plants have recovered a bit quicker than normal after the trim but it's too early to tell. I am getting some pearling which is surprising given the light, we will see if it lasts. Pictures are not worth taking right now.

I have had a low tech 6 gallon forever. My homie OVT gave me a 10 he had laying around so I decided to upgrade. I didn't take pics of the 6 before tear down but the new scape will look nothing like the old. That Java Fern started super small, I can't believe how big it is now. That is one plant. I plan on doing stems on the side, AR in front, will figure the rest out later. This is fairly low tech for low tech, it's like a T8 and a 2211 on a 60P. Very low flow, low light, we will see what it grows. 

Since it is a slow process, I don't feel like doing a journal so I am going to add it here. I will add clippings from the 60P to start and then decide a direction. I do have a good idea, two large clumps of plants on each side, then have a "meadow" in the middle, if the DHG grows. So, introducing the 10 gallon...


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Pretty cool to see how a single healthy bush of java fern can dress up an empty tank.

v3


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

Wow. That j fern looks lush


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

It's bigger too, there is a rock on top of it until it holds itself down. This thing is crazy big, considering it came out of a 6 gallon.


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## umarnasir335 (Mar 2, 2014)

is that barclay's longfellow (spelling?) or a red tiger lotus in the corner. Looks very nice!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

umarnasir335 said:


> is that barclay's longfellow (spelling?) or a red tiger lotus in the corner. Looks very nice!


It's a red tiger lotus.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Not a whole lot of update. Since the high CO2, and you can see in the pic that I just hit my threshold (notice fish), new growth seems healthy and nice. On the flip side, coloration seems worse, not that I have a lot which I expected anyway. More growth with the same lighting usually equals less color, or that is my experience. 

On the 10 gallon, I got an unexpected visitor. My little 25 watt heater wasn't cutting it so I get a big submersible. Yey, I love them, especially on small tanks. I was deciding between my Eheim and my AquaClear. Decided on the second, stepped on the cord, it shattered, now at the first. I like Eheim heaters, they are just huge. 


So here is the 60P, recovering from the trim. You can kind of see where I am going. I do plan on pulling most of the right side and likely the Hygro Brown, it's just not what I want. I will wait until I decide on light levels.






As for the 10 (which probably won't get a lot of updates), new heater installed. I plan on using some sort of Rotala in the other corner, just need to trim or buy some.


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## pewpewkittah (Jan 14, 2014)

Nice colors! 

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

pewpewkittah said:


> Nice colors!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


Thanks but the colors are far from there. I either need to choose more plants that color up in low light, or go high light, something that I have been debating for awhile, way to long haha.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I love eheim heaters for reliability, but yes they are huge! You can try building an inline heater with pvc and reducers if you have a canister to slap it on.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

AquaAurora said:


> I love eheim heaters for reliability, but yes they are huge! You can try building an inline heater with pvc and reducers if you have a canister to slap it on.


I have done it before and found that the DIY inline on that filter before and it worked well. The problem is a combination of space and flow, my little 501 was great for the 6 gallon I had, not as great for the 10 gallon that replaced it. I don't need high flow on that tank, and I did actually have a DIY inline, with the same filter, but in this setup, I will double the tubing length minimum and it may not even fit. 

You are right that the Eheim heaters are huge. That is why I chose my AquaClear I so love. Shame I broke it, my luck. 

I think once the other side gets planted, it will work out. I would normally put it horizontal but I want some negative space in the back, at least in the initial plan, that may change.

Maybe I should over complicate things and use the 6 gallon for a sump haha.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, last weekend I met with the homie, member OVT. We kind of discussed the disaster of this tank when it was high tech (it's a different journal). He thought I lacked the plant mass I needed for that high of light. I was telling him that I thought this light, at 4 bulbs was comparable to other, cheaper fixtures I had owned (6 Coralife T5NO's right on top of my 29). I now know that it doesn't compare.

In retrospect, both of us are more than valid in our thoughts but combined, it basically never could have worked. At this point I feel I have a good combo of fast growers and slow growers so I am going to try this again.

So, I am back to the Aquaticlife T5HOx4 I had. I have been going through some PAR numbers but it's really hard to find good, solid info on this light, at least where I am looking. What I did was take both the par numbers for this light, and similar lights, and kind of came up with an "average" number that I hope puts me in the 50-70ish range. That number is 18 inches but I may play it safe and go 20. All I can say is that it's visually much brighter. 

I am also running a split photoperiod which I may ditch and go with one. A big reason for this is my viewing time but it also prevents me from a noon burst, something I don't even want to get into right now. I am running 4 on, 4 off, 4 on right now. 

Anyway, View I haven't posted yet.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Oh man, I was running Hagen Glo at 2 x t5ho on a 60P @ 14" and THAT was a ton of light for me. I just realized yours is 4 x t5ho with better reflectors. You must be pushing 100 PAR. No wonder... Talk to you soon.

v3


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Do you trim the middle section? The growth is higher in the front, or did you plant that way?

What kind of bulbs do you have for that Aquatic Life? 

I still think it look good Matt, maybe more plants and a quick glass scrub, but its not bad looking by any means. 

The harshest critic is always the owner,


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> Oh man, I was running Hagen Glo at 2 x t5ho on a 60P @ 14" and THAT was a ton of light for me. I just realized yours is 4 x t5ho with better reflectors. You must be pushing 100 PAR. No wonder... Talk to you soon.
> 
> v3


Yeah, the light is way more powerful than I initially thought. I am actually second guessing my current height, I don't know, even though I am only running two bulbs, it's just so bright. I know that isn't a good way to measure but it just seems like 5x as bright as it was with the NO fixture. I may actually go off the par of your old setup and try to get about there or lower if the info is available online. 



FlyingHellFish said:


> Do you trim the middle section? The growth is higher in the front, or did you plant that way?
> 
> What kind of bulbs do you have for that Aquatic Life?
> 
> ...


The front plants were trimmed lower but now with CO2, everything is growing at different rates. Before, it didn't really matter if something was a fast grower or not, it would grow all the same same without CO2 injection. I can't fit much more plants at the moment but I will have to rip some out if this is long term high light because I have some fast growers that will become a pain.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, first, this is more of an update for myself than for the board, I just want to make sure I don't go overkill on the light and I often reference my journals for future use.

I have the light at 20in above the tank, 18.5 in over the substrate. This may seem high but my past experiences with this light told me that it's a more than safe starting point. I will slowly lower it until I find where I need. I am only running two bulbs BTW.

I actually think I may have less light than I did before. I had about 5-6 days of high CO2 but lower light so it's hard to say. My color seems less, and many plants are growing smaller leaves, some are a bit more leggy than they would at higher light levels. However, the same thing could have happened without changing the lights just adding CO2. In lower light levels, I do find that the addition of CO2 can add to growth but less color.

As for algae, I have had an increase of green slime on the glass. Again, it can be contributed to other things. Easy to deal with if it stays on the glass like it is. I did find two tiny spots of BBA, that can be attributed to tuning my CO2, came a week ago, let it stay to see if it got worse, it has not. 

I also have some stubborn brown algae I am convinced is dead. It doesn't spread at all. However, I cannot get it off the glass for the life of me. Normally I would take a razor to it but I am struggling with that idea on a tank this nice. I will exhaust all options before I do that.

The main thing is my tank had a bacteria bloom, that's why the pictures look strange. Now, it may be because my guppies are breeding like crazy. However, this isn't the first time I have had something like this happen since I have moved. I am not going to blame my water...yet...but I am thinking about switching over to RO water. I can get some right up the street and soon, right from a friend. On this size tank, it's not going to be a big deal to make the switch.

My plans are a few. First, I am going to lower the light slowly until I hit some good color, assuming algae stays the same. I then will likely have to take out more than a few plants because they grow too fast because of the position. However, I am not keen on adding new plants until I get the coloration up so that may have to wait, I don't mind if the tank is ugly in the short run. Again, I may try RO water as well, never liked the idea of buying water for my tank but at this point, it's pretty easy to do. 

Here is a picture, obviously it's not great due to the mini cycle, the fact it's day time, and the fact nothing is really trimmed. Therefore, I took it at a horrible angle so it's even harder to understand haha. A lot of what looks like algae on the glass is either single tall stems or reflections.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> Ok, first, this is more of an update for myself than for the board, I just want to make sure I don't go overkill on the light and I often reference my journals for future use.


I do the same.  There's a reason this sub-forum is called "Tank Journals". Super handy for keeping track of stuff like this! Otherwise, we'd have to jot this stuff down in an actual paper journal with pen and ink...


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> I do the same.  There's a reason this sub-forum is called "Tank Journals". Super handy for keeping track of stuff like this! Otherwise, we'd have to jot this stuff down in an actual paper journal with pen and ink...


Yeah, when I joined, this section was actually one of the more useful to learn, now it's a bit more "show and tell", or maybe "show and prove" would be better. It's not the members, it's just the amount of members. Every forum is like that when there is a bunch of members, especially in a hobby people tend to jump in and out of. To get attention it seems you need a high end tank, a beautiful scape and tons of tech if you haven't been on the site for a very long time. 

I can't tell you how many times I have gone through my first journal to find the advice I need now, just because it was so active among everyone. 

I am guilty too, I tend to not be as helpful as I could, pay more attention to the journals that impress me, but I try to give everyone advice or just encouragement when I don't have advice, assuming I have the time.


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

You make a good point Matt. As a newcomer, I learn quite a bit mote from threads about tanks with issues rather than beautifully scaped semi-professional pieces.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

vanish said:


> You make a good point Matt. As a newcomer, I learn quite a bit mote from threads about tanks with issues rather than beautifully scaped semi-professional pieces.


Exactly. I don't want to be a "hater" but at one point, people would basically only take professional photography of their tanks, if it wasn't good enough to post, then macro pics of fish. Some of my favorite where in the nano section, way back, where they would do weekly updates and once it was just right, then they would do a great photo shoot. It actually really helped see the difference between the day to day and the best it could ever look. Most looked perfectly great all the time but you could see it progress, all equipment in place etc.

On the flip side, more than a few people who just grow plants really well have like 900 tanks so it's hard for them to really document one tank very well, totally understandable but it was more fun when you could follow just a single tank.

That said, I think more participation in this section is better. That's why I am never afraid to post my tank when it's not close to what I want, for me it's always a progression and I often don't get half way before I find a new idea. We also need to embrace new members more, but they also need to understand that some of us go way back. Even this tank was a gift from a fellow member for my wedding so there is a reason why some of the older members get more attention, we are really actually friends with other members we either have met in person, or would gladly let visit our homes if they were around, or just chat a lot of many years.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

Whoa algae invasion eh? Guppies should eat it all up!

The carpet looks nice. Is it micro sword? How are trimming it?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Down_Shift said:


> Whoa algae invasion eh? Guppies should eat it all up!
> 
> The carpet looks nice. Is it micro sword? How are trimming it?


No, a bacterial bloom that looks in pics like algae. Carpet is E. tenellus which actually doesn't need trimming though I may hack it down every 6 months if I have had algae issues for fresh growth. I actually don't know how to trim micro sword though, can you or will it rot away?


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

talontsiawd said:


> No, a bacterial bloom that looks in pics like algae. Carpet is E. tenellus which actually doesn't need trimming though I may hack it down every 6 months if I have had algae issues for fresh growth. I actually don't know how to trim micro sword though, can you or will it rot away?



I have no clue if you can trim micro sword. That's why I was wondering how you got that carpet filled hah. Looks nice


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Down_Shift said:


> I have no clue if you can trim micro sword. That's why I was wondering how you got that carpet filled hah. Looks nice


I have used it before and when I trimmed it, the lower part seemed to rot so I just let it grow but I pulled it out before it got anywhere because it didn't fit. It grew really tall for me, taller than untrimmed DHG. I do know someone who is currently doing one so I will see how he deals with it. 

I will vouch for E. tenellus though. It's more of a "lawn grass" look with thicker blades but grows pretty short, depending on lighting/CO2 and with the right light, will have hints of red and pink which is cool. If you trim it, it always will look like cut grass so if it gets unruly, I trim it to the substrate and it will not rot or anything, but you want to trim it all off so you can't see what you cut, only new growth.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, this is a "semi" update, only because I hacked the 60P. The new growth was so much better than before CO2 that I had to go low. Again, I actually think I have lower light or similar with the height of my fixture but it will come down. 

You can see, the guppies are gasping a bit, just turned the CO2 down. It's hard because even before CO2, the adults stayed at the surface a lot so it's hard to know if it's a CO2 issue or not. I think I will have found my limit tomorrow or the next, I was not at the limit last time I thought I was, probably increased my CO2 by 25-40%.

So, the 60P is ugly right now but doing very well. Good thing.


On the other side, I feel I have to update the 10 because OVT wants me to. He convinced me to take it and though I loved my prior 6 gallon, it is a cool tank. I am trying to do a scape that used to be more common. Two sides planted, the middle is just foreground. It's a slow progression but the nice thing about this tank is that it doesn't need a big plant mass to go. I don't think I have changed the water, I know I haven't cleaned the inside glass yet. Fun little tank, I will need some more DHG but the basic design is there. I know it's been done before, but I miss the simple tanks I used to love. 

Anyway, it isn't a big update but I like where things are going with the 10, if the 60P recovers with no algae after the huge trim, I am going in the right direction.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

The 60P is looking better and better! May I suggest that you keep the stems in it around this height, because it looks better IMO, and it's easier to maintain


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Pretty good hack job and I agree, it now looks slick.

Right, I had to break your arm over the 10g. I have a bunch of moss, DHG, actually, I have a ton of everything, including some newer plants that will work in 60P and the 10. I just might have to force you to take them.

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Bserve said:


> The 60P is looking better and better! May I suggest that you keep the stems in it around this height, because it looks better IMO, and it's easier to maintain


I don't like a lot of negative space at the top. It will be over the 2/3 mark on the tank, the tallest is about 1/2. Funny, most tanks I have had have a good foreground and a good background, I feel I am doing well with the mid ground which my tanks have lacked, not so great on the background, foreground is OK.

Some plants will have to go, they grow to quickly, but, I have to get the light right first. Just glad I didn't get a huge amount of slime on the glass when I went CO2. I have a bit of BBA, I am actually keeping it to see if it spreads, doesn't seem to but I like to know. It's my sign that I have a high tech tank again, haha. It's only on one leaf so I could easily cut it off and be done, just an indicator for me.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> Pretty good hack job and I agree, it now looks slick.
> 
> Right, I had to break your arm over the 10g. I have a bunch of moss, DHG, actually, I have a ton of everything, including some newer plants that will work in 60P and the 10. I just might have to force you to take them.
> 
> v3


First of all, our discussion helped me greatly on lights and CO2. Even though most plants could color up, taking it slow is a great relief compared to my last attempt. The tall stem on the right is actually R. macrandra. The only reason I know that now is that it seems to like the CO2 and is coming back. Not enough light but it survived the low light so I think I may have a chance at this as I (slowly) lower the light.

Of course you had to break my arm over the 10 gallon. I love my little 6 gallon but the Java fern was slowly (very slowly) taking over. All my scapes are long term so it is a strong commitment for me. Luckily it was you who convinced me, not your daughter who could literately snap my arm in half haha. I do like the size, you like tall tanks, I like short tanks...Some how, I have no short tanks.

As for new plants, I am eager to get the 60P in order. The left side, I think it's what I want, though I am not sure what Rotala is in back, I forget. The middle, it's fine, but the Hygro Brown won't work long term, the L. aromatica will work if it colors up, I haven't had it color up in high tech, only low tech, ironically. The right side, I don't know about, that was my "fast growing" section and I have to bulldoze it, low tech or high tech. The only plant I want to keep is the Sunset Hygro, only because it is a really cool plant but we all start with it so we want something more rare when we get further. 

To me, the best plants are the ones that treat you right. Anyway, lets me up soon and kick it. I want to see how your corner tank and cube in your office are doing. That's saying a lot, given you have an amazing 120P among other things.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I have exactly the plants you want ... if they stay alive that long. Haha @ both of my comments.

I pulled 1/2 of the plants from the 120-P = 2 full 5g buckets ... I should post a pix.

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> I have exactly the plants you want ... if they stay alive that long. Haha @ both of my comments.
> 
> I pulled 1/2 of the plants from the 120-P = 2 full 5g buckets ... I should post a pix.
> 
> v3


Do it...My thread is your thread. I have had one 5 gallon bucket almost full, 2 is crazy. If you need someone to pick something up ASAP, call me haha


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

OVT said:


> I have exactly the plants you want ... if they stay alive that long. Haha @ both of my comments.
> 
> I pulled 1/2 of the plants from the 120-P = 2 full 5g buckets ... I should post a pix.
> 
> v3



That's 10 gallons of plant mass :O


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Ok Ok. The kitchen sink is 18" x 16" x 9" deep:










I might still have some plants left in the tank:










The 18" cube 2 days ago:




























Matt, thank you for hosting my junk.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Damn, that's a lot of plants. Just the Blyxa alone would fill my 10 gallon. The cube is looking amazing man.


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## umarnasir335 (Mar 2, 2014)

It's nice to see such devoted hobbyists in my area. Also nice to know that I'm not the only one with a love of collectoritis @OVT . Both of you guys grow some really healthy, vibrant plants


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

umarnasir335 said:


> It's nice to see such devoted hobbyists in my area. Also nice to know that I'm not the only one with a love of collectoritis @OVT . Both of you guys grow some really healthy, vibrant plants


Your sig says Torrance, are you talking Cali, or are you living somewhere else? LA/Pasadena area has so many little cool spots. My favorite is Nature Aquarium in Santa Monica but I also love A+ in Temple City. Even the little spot in Monrovia, where my in laws live, it's a really cool spot for the little, corner type aquarium shop. Actually, almost all the spots down there are cooler than here, except AFA. Albany up here is amazing.

As for commitment, OVT has one of the strongest I have seen in the hobby, people travel quite a ways to check his stuff out. Quite amazing.


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## umarnasir335 (Mar 2, 2014)

talontsiawd said:


> Your sig says Torrance, are you talking Cali, or are you living somewhere else? LA/Pasadena area has so many little cool spots. My favorite is Nature Aquarium in Santa Monica but I also love A+ in Temple City. Even the little spot in Monrovia, where my in laws live, it's a really cool spot for the little, corner type aquarium shop. Actually, almost all the spots down there are cooler than here, except AFA. Albany up here is amazing.
> 
> As for commitment, OVT has one of the strongest I have seen in the hobby, people travel quite a ways to check his stuff out. Quite amazing.


Yes, I do live in Torrance, CA - 5 mins from Redondo and Hermosa Beach and 20 mins from Long Beach.

As a newcomer in the hobby and planted tanks, it's been hard trying to meet people who like to aquascape and keep planted tanks. My local LFS, Trekkers Tropicals, is the only larger store I access to due to transportation "issues" -____-

I want to check out Nature Aquariums - heard a lot of good things about it. The most important thing on my agenda is to join an aquarium society or something - is there something like that locally?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

umarnasir335 said:


> Yes, I do live in Torrance, CA - 5 mins from Redondo and Hermosa Beach and 20 mins from Long Beach.
> 
> As a newcomer in the hobby and planted tanks, it's been hard trying to meet people who like to aquascape and keep planted tanks. My local LFS, Trekkers Tropicals, is the only larger store I access to due to transportation "issues" -____-
> 
> I want to check out Nature Aquariums - heard a lot of good things about it. The most important thing on my agenda is to join an aquarium society or something - is there something like that locally?


I know there is SCAPE.

The reason I ask where you were from is myself, and OVT, both live in the Bay Area, quite far from you. I only know your area because I go there fairly often. We are far from local to you, reason I asked, so I can't give too much advice about the scene.


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## umarnasir335 (Mar 2, 2014)

talontsiawd said:


> I know there is SCAPE.
> 
> The reason I ask where you were from is myself, and OVT, both live in the Bay Area, quite far from you. I only know your area because I go there fairly often. We are far from local to you, reason I asked, so I can't give too much advice about the scene.


Aw, that sucks :/ I know that the aquarium scene in the Bay Area is larger than what it is here. Lots of amazing aquascapers (*cough Tom Barr *cough) I thought about joining SCAPE, but their meetings are usually held about 1-2 hours outside of the LA area


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Oh, I totally forgot...I started using RO water. I have only moved about 10 miles over 3 moves but it seems like the water just gets worse. I had interest trying RO water from the beginning but I have had a few weird things happen where I just felt it was time. Not blaming the water at all, just saying it will be an experiment (with too many variables).

I am the type that when I put a cup down in my studio, I may not pick it up for a week, unless I am doing vocal tracking, so I have left more than a few cups and I get insanely white water stains. It also happens with my tanks and it's not just extremely annoying, it gets worse when I refill with tap.

I bought two 5 gallon jugs for the 60P, it may work out so I can do the 10 as well with one trip. Kind of funny, I don't trust or not trust the guy at the LFS. I started filling and my fish went nuts. I thought it was saltwater. Anyway, the guppies are extremely active now. I went slow, 1-2 gallons at a time, 50% water change. They seem to love it. On top of that, my tank has never looked so clear ever. 

Hoping that it will help, or not hurt, it's just an experiment. I am surprised though, fish are more active, water is super clear (even though I thought it was clear before), plants, no clue, need to recover.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, I have now had 2 mini cycles in less than a month. I have had this happen maybe twice in the 8 years I have been doing this, never two in a row. Now I haven't cleaned my filter in awhile, I am wondering if that could cause this. However, it still has good flow and I have had this filter for maybe 6 years so I would think it would have happened before. Or is it simply the breeding? Anyway, this is confusing me.

On another note, the tank seemed to recover decently after the trim, something I was concerned about, going back to CO2 and higher lighting. One thing, the CO2 did run out for at least 2-3 days as my drop checker was blue, then I couldn't deal with it for a day. To me, that's a pretty good sign I am on the right track.

Changed too many things at once to say this but I think the RO water is really helping. Some R. macrandra I had is growing much better. It's still not showing much red, I still think I can up the lights quite a bit but given the fact I don't have enough light for deep reds yet, I was surprised to see it bounce back so quickly. I am VERY slowly dropping the light down until I see better reds, it may take me awhile.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

How long has it been since you cleaned the filter? I try to clean the canister at least every month or two. Just a simple sponge ringing out in the bucket of the accumulated detritus. Not sure if that can cause a mini cycle though. Maybe if you disturb the substrate or if you hurt the BB somehow with untreated tap or chemicals. But you switched to RO, so not sure.. Maybe the pH changed because of the RO and CO2? Doesn't the BB activity somehow stall or change with very low pH? Don't quote me on that, but it sounds familiar. Are you going 100% RO or mixed with tap? If all RO, are you remineralizing?

I have R. Macrandra too. At first, it died almost completely on me because I have liquid rock super high TDS tap in AZ. But all of a sudden, it acclimated and it now growing perfectly healthy. I was pretty much shocked because I thought it wouldn't survive and it's just one of those plants that need RO or soft water. But it adapted.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> How long has it been since you cleaned the filter? I try to clean the canister at least every month or two. Just a simple sponge ringing out in the bucket of the accumulated detritus. Not sure if that can cause a mini cycle though. Maybe if you disturb the substrate or if you hurt the BB somehow with untreated tap or chemicals. But you switched to RO, so not sure.. Maybe the pH changed because of the RO and CO2? Doesn't the BB activity somehow stall or change with very low pH? Don't quote me on that, but it sounds familiar. Are you going 100% RO or mixed with tap? If all RO, are you remineralizing?
> 
> I have R. Macrandra too. At first, it died almost completely on me because I have liquid rock super high TDS tap in AZ. But all of a sudden, it acclimated and it now growing perfectly healthy. I was pretty much shocked because I thought it wouldn't survive and it's just one of those plants that need RO or soft water. But it adapted.


I haven't cleaned the filter in 3-4 months but that's honestly not that long for me. I would say I easy go 6 months.

As for the RO water, I actually switched after my last mini cycle. That was part of the reason I switched, I have had some things happen since I moved that I never had happen before, BGA outbreaks, then the mini cycle. I don't think it has anything to do with it, but, I have never used it until a week ago so who knows.

I plan to do a water change tonight, maybe I will clean the filter too, I am always hesitant to mess with the filter when something strange is going on but the fish seem really health and hardy.

As for R. macrandra, probably one of the few plants I have never had any luck with. Even though it's only showing small signs of red, the leaves are enlarging, which to me, is a great sign.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

ya dude RO water is pretty sweet. I was using RO at first and got lazy with lugging the water jugs.

It really helped with algae, water stains, and the fish seemed to be ok with it. I did WC's less often though since I felt it held up better and i was lazy lugging them. For the 60P, I was constantly swapping out 2 jugs weekly.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Down_Shift said:


> ya dude RO water is pretty sweet. I was using RO at first and got lazy with lugging the water jugs.
> 
> It really helped with algae, water stains, and the fish seemed to be ok with it. I did WC's less often though since I felt it held up better and i was lazy lugging them. For the 60P, I was constantly swapping out 2 jugs weekly.


I feel you. Two jugs a week works perfect for me, enough for a water change and top off on both the 60P and the 10 gallon. Got some today for the next water change. The fish actually responded the best, I actually thought I changed the water chemistry to fast because they were so active I thought it was a problem. Now they just are more active.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, after the water change, it seemed to clear up, I knew the cycle was almost over but it just disappeared, thought I would snap some pics since I just cleaned the lily pipes and whatnot. I still can't get this old brown algae off, I will have to get some sort of scraper, I am just scared to use anything but paper towel on high clarity glass.

The foreground and mid ground are about what I want, though I do want to add more color, either through lighting or plant choice. I obviously need to develop the background. 

I want more color overall so I did lower the lights, I am at 17in over the substrate as of today. I am kind of in a predicament here because the fixture is pretty bulky so I don't want to go any lower. Right now I am running a split photoperiod of 5 hours, twice a day, running two bulbs at a time. 

I figure I have 3 options to get more color. First, extend each photo period by an hour or so. Many say you cannot make up for lack of intensity with a longer photo period and while I don't disagree, you can get better coloration with a longer photo period. The problem with that is it's much more marginal in coloration than adding more light, plus it gets risky on the algae side the longer it is. 

Second option is just trying a conventional photo period and hope that the sustained lighting helps. Kind of the same idea as above. Then I can't see my tank in the morning and at night.

The 3rd option is the one that is probably the best but the most risky. That is to run a regular photo period, and add a noon burst. I was fairly successful with that on my 20 long I had before this but 4 bulbs on this tank has not been good. However, I have been much more on top of fert dosing, water changes, and overall maintenance.

I am probably a bit overly paranoid as my last experience made me want to quit the hobby. Just algae bloom after algae bloom with no real pattern. I also love my split photo period but again, I can't bring myself to lower the light anymore because it's makes it impossible to work on the tank. I can't run more bulbs with the split photo period because the built in timer won't allow me to, something I never considered. I am thinking a normal photo period is best, then add a noon burst if need be is the best option. I don't mind raising the light up, which may be the way to do it, though I have to find the balance all over again. 

Anyway, I will sleep on that idea for now but would love some advice on this.

I will leave you with some pictures, unfortunately my (point and shoot) camera gets moody so the pics are slightly blurry.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

If you like how the tank is doing then just leave it be for a month or two and just try some different plants. The rear back corner looks like a good spot.

You can always add standard AR. My other choices for more color would be: L. sp red, L. arcuata / brevipes , L. repens / Atlantis. Hygro brown / Sunset, Persicaria[censored]sp. 'Kawagoeanum', Limnophila Aromatica (again), Foxtail, and see how much color you can get out of them first.

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> If you like how the tank is doing then just leave it be for a month or two and just try some different plants. The rear back corner looks like a good spot.
> 
> You can always add standard AR. My other choices for more color would be: L. sp red, L. arcuata / brevipes , L. repens / Atlantis. Hygro brown / Sunset, Persicaria[censored]sp. 'Kawagoeanum', Limnophila Aromatica (again), Foxtail, and see how much color you can get out of them first.
> 
> v3


Well, out of those, I always wanted to try L. arcuata. I bought some tissue culture ones at Petsmart and they never have made it. L. sp Red is a favorite, I do need to get some so that is on the agenda. I already have Hygro brown, Hygro sunset, and L. Aromatica in the tank. I don't like Ludwiga Repens in a tank this size because it either is green, or once it colors up, it goes everywhere. I have to google the rest soon. 

I actually went ahead and changed the lighting, I am now at 2 bulbs for 7 hours, 4 bulbs for 2. I didn't get to see it much today but pearling was strong. I have a strong feeling that if I have issues, I just need to run 2 bulbs so I will see what happens. I don't plan to extend the burst, hopefully the photo period but for now, just see what happens. I did raise the light 2 inches just in case. 

Well, I am off to sleep, have a BBQ tomorrow that you had to bounce 3 hours north to avoid:red_mouth. I image we may cross paths soon however


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, I may take pictures of the 60P soon. I did change to a conventional photo period. I had family in town so I got a bit off my fert schedule for a few days, nothing too bad but need to give a minor clean to the glass. It basically looks the same. I raised the light and the color isn't so good, something that will be my struggle with this tank until I commit to either a long noon burst or lower the light, I just don't want to repeat my last few tries so taking it slow.


I did snap a few pictures of the 10 gallon. It's kind of funny, I didn't really document my 6 gallon and even if you followed the journal, I stopped updating it. I had more species in that than my 60P, which is quite a bit bigger. Sort of odd going to a larger tank and having only 5 species of plants, and I may ditch the pennywort or whatever it is as well once I get something to replace it. 

I am surprisingly liking this tank, I really wanted to keep it simple and that is exactly what it is. I kind of wish I did sand up front and a path the the back, I may do that later, not sure if I want a foreground or not. The DHG is actually growing decently, it's not going to be quick at all. 

Anyway, some pics, I know it's nothing crazy but I had a scape in mind and it's already getting there with very little work, plant mass, etc. I have cleaned the glass once since setup and the outside glass 5x, one water change, this tank is super easy. It needed a top off, obviously, forgot about that.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, this really isn't an update, I just took a quick picture to illustrate my issues. First things first, I am really not sure why I cannot get anything to color up. It's not this tank, it's my high tech tanks as of awhile. 

I was doing EI dosing for 40 gallons, I don't know where I messed up there. I know that EI dosing is supposed to be non limiting but I feel like I get very little color. 

Now, my CO2 is still not tuned yet, it's really hard with guppies because you think they are gasping, only to find they have no issues exploring. 

Anyway, I don't plan to make this tank look any better, until I get some color, or give up. The l. aromatica only gets to yellow, even in the 10, posted above, it gets some purple under the leaves, not vibrant but better. Really no plant has color, outside of the AR (possibly mini). 

Kind of unsure where to go, I know the previous owner had less light and far more colors than me (maybe he can chime in or come by...hint, hint). I am running 8 hours of 2 bulbs, 2 hours of 4 bulbs. I can up that but I know I likely will have problems and possibly quickly. If I can't get color, I just don't like the tank as is. 

Everything is growing well, however, so I don't really get it. I am far for algae free, though most is on the glass so it's easy to make my tank look decent enough.

Lastly, another mini cycle, I don't know what's up there. I don't know if it's my bio load constantly expanding from the guppies or what. Funny, I took my UV out before the issues, not that I ever used it, now I want to hook it back up. I cleaned the filter, it was dirty but not horrifically so.

Well, here is a very not so good picture. Any advice would be great. It would be one thing if I wasn't getting deep colors, it's another to know my various Rotala species can get deep red and have been when I bought, yellow is about as best as I can get, that's a stretch haha.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

What are the plants that you have that you expect to color up?

Most rotalas, including Colorata and Wallichii get color very close to the surface, at least for me. The notable exceptions are Macrandra variants.

Ludwigias, on the other hand, like repens, grandulosa, Atlantis & friends, tend to have color closer to the substrate.

Purple cobomba, L. sp red, Amanias, Althernathera have color all over.

I would recommend that you test your tank / lights with some of these plants, even though they might not end up being part of your final scape.

The water in the last picture looks pretty cloudy to me. Is that because of the algae on the front glass or for some other reason?

Did you double-check your fertilization dosage?

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I have three different types of Rotala in there that are all green or yellow. I forget exactly what each are, even if I knew what I had, I don't remember where I put what at this point but each were a deep red of some sort when I bought them. I believe one was R. Singapore, another was R. Butterfly, can't re call the 3rd, it may have been just Rotundifolia or it may have been Colorata. One came out of my low tech so that didn't have color.

The other plants I expect to have some color out of is L. aromatica and Hygro brown. L. aromatica is a plant I have always struggled to get color out of, though it is more colorful in my low tech, it's far from being purple, just has purple under the leaves. The Hygro Brown has some color, it was just better under low tech. Same with the R. Wallichii, it had a nice pinkish red before I changed over to high tech, now it's just an orangish brown. 

Lastly, I also have some Hygro Sunset that is green but I know for me, it's not that uncommon for it to actually have more color with slower growth in low light, especially low in the tank.

Now, the one plant that does give some color is Red cabomba, there just is not a lot of it. I have a stem that just ended up in the tank, about 3 inch above the substrate and though it could be a deeper red, it's actually fine.

Lastly, I have R. Macrandra in here which is both yellow and has small leaves but is continuing to improve. I don't want to put any oppinion on that plant because it was in pretty bad shape from low tech, the leaf size has grown considerably, and still is with CO2 and higher light, so it still is in a transition phase, plus, I haven't had much luck with this plant so anything better than green is better than other tries, however, now that I use RO water, it may do better for me, we will see. Until some of the other plants color up, I don't really think this one will though.

I have been meaning to get some L. sp Red for this tank, that's a plant I do want to incorporate. 



As for the cloudiness, I am really stumped by it. I get one week or so of very cloudy water, then it clears up, only to get cloudy again. It is way worse now than in the picture. I have started to test my water and Ammonia and Nitrites are at zereo. Nitrates are even pretty low, I lost the little card but it's around zero to 5PPM. Even as it gets worse, these numbers don't change.

I mentioned I started to use RO water. That is unrelated to this as it started happening before I used RO water. In fact, it was the initial reason I switched over. 

I cleaned my filter recently and though it was fairly dirty, it was far from being the worst it has been.

I am really stumped there. All my fish are healthy, it doesn't make sense and this is the first time I have ever had multiple times my tank has been cloudy. I have maybe had 2 mini cycles over the course of this hobby, this is strange.

I have just been riding it out but I may either plump my UV back in, or temporary add another filter. I have an Ecco 2234 in the garage that I can hook up too. I was going to write a post on this today in another forum as it makes no sense to me. 

Anyway, the tank is a bit of a mess right now, luckily, everything seems healthy and no crazy algae, but the lack of color and this cycle may or may not be related but both seemed to happen when I went back to high tech. Not sure if it's related or not.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Well, continuing off my last post...I plumbed in the UV but I may switch out the lily pipe, or add an air stone, I am somewhat convinced I don't have enough surface agitation. Tank cleared up well for now, we will see what happens later. I also dose everyday now, had an autodoser for so long, I still have it all but I miss it dearly haha. I did find a 1/32 teaspoon today, that may help.


Anyway, I got to chill with my favorite plant friend, OVT. We talked about my lighting, my plants, looked at his beautiful tanks, spoke on world events, politics, art, music, and computer programing....all while I chain smoked and had a few beers...that's what good friends are for.

We tried to figure out some good "indicator" plants, some that don't need a ton of light and attention to look good, others that may need a bit more, nothing too hard, just to try to dial in my lighting. It's a weird thing, I find really different par readings on my fixture, from very low, to very high. I don't have the stock bulbs, I have Hamilton Technology bulbs (what my LFS has), I believe they are decent but not great. Now, I do plan to change the spectrum up at some point, I have two 10,000k's, one 6,500k or 6,700k and one rosette. Not the best combo for colorful plants but I believe the output is their to make some great color, even if it's not the best visual lighting.

Anyway, I got some cool little parting gifts. Some will stay, some will move, some will go to another tank at some point but I will figure that out later. I was talking to OVT, at this point, I am trying to complete a layout I started almost a year ago, nothing is set in stone anymore, I am likely going to move things around from my old scape, plus incorporate new plants. I still want to keep a garden theme, not that I have achieved that yet, but I do want clumps of various plants, no jungle. 

Here is how it sits now, I will figure out the the details later but it's stuffed right now (just like OVT would want haha).


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

You need more plants ...

v3


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

OVT said:


> You need more plants ...
> 
> v3



LOL

Doesn't everyone?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> You need more plants ...
> 
> v3


Says the guy who forgoes substrate in a (brand new) 60P for egg crate and plant weights. How baller is that, ADA 60P as a holding tank? 

I had a blast, I do think it's kind of funny how you seemingly tried to play down the fact you had two new tanks, like I wouldn't see them ASAP. Your scaped 60P is beautiful, I know you don't love the stones, I do, but your office cube...crazy, I don't know if I even had a chance to compliment it. 

The half cube, that holds a special place in my heart, give me like 3 months warning if you ever take it down, just to give me time to morn it, haha. 

Time to get the big one in order though, you know which one (not the one in you living room). 

As always, I know you rarely do journals so if you want to post some pictures in my thread, feel free. I would love for other members to see how crazy some of your tanks are. 

Anyone want to buy an Ensoniq ASR 10? No SCSI. Actually, not ready to sell yet, but something new is brewing. Will be revealed when I am ready.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, I really wanted to discuss the 60P as the topic of the night, or morning, depending. I did not have time to take pictures, I will get to that tomorrow.

However, I kind of came across this, a friend of mine was replacing some tanks and let me give this a shot. It's kind of bitter sweet because I had to put my favorite sampler (Ensoniq ASR 10) in the closet for this but I am also really pumped to have a tank in my home recording studio again. It's been about 2 years since and I have been waiting for the right tank. I considered my 10, my 60P or a 20 long, none really "fit". 

So far, I absolutely hate this tank. I am very content that I did not break the glass. Ironically, though I need to add substrate, it's not enough for a standard 10 gallon either. I really thought these tanks were much bigger. Even when it was just sitting empty, it just seemed like a big tank.

Well, I didn't break the glass so I am happy. I only spent about 30 min on this, I usually try about 10-15 rocks, this I may have done 7. It's weird because I have used these rocks maybe 4 times now so I know them so well, but only 2 are in similar positions than the last time. 

It's by no means a perfect scape and I may mess around a bit but it's the best I can do, more or less. I really wasn't planning on a 3rd tank so this is very low budget. I will not buy stones for this, I am about 80% sure on that. I have an Ecco 2234 to go with. The light, too strong, but it's on loan anyway, thinking about trying a Sat + right now. I may or may not add CO2, I can only fit paintball. Plans for plants is simple, HC. 

Anyway, the new addition, I may or may not start a new journal for this but I am not ready to start the tank either, once I get some more substrate, likely add some Petco/Petsmart sand, I will then DSM.

Love my long posts...Awesome


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OK, on to the 60P. 

So a week ago, OVT and I met up. Among other things, we were discussing the situation with colors in my plants. Now, I forget all the names but the easier plants have good color, they are too low to really see much. One looks to be Polygonum sp. 'Kawagoeanum', the other is red cabomba. Now, I am happy to have some red but I am not surprised, those are both fairly easy. 

What I am surprised about is my Colorata is now green on the top. My L. Cuba I just put in has the very slightest of color and only at the absolute top. Then my existing Hygro brown is now green again, as is my various Rotala and other plants I have discussed.

I am not algae free either, I have some algae on the glass, easily cleaned. I also have a BBA outbreak but now that I am only finished fine tuning the CO2, it seems like it's slowing down. I am running crazy high CO2 for livestock, I actually killed my snails at 2/3rds of what I am running now, and they usually are not the first to show stress. These guppies can handle a ton of CO2. The only reason why my drop checker is not a solid yellow is it's not in my normal photo period, I just wanted to snap some pictures. 

At this point, I figure I am either really underestimating how the height of my light affects the output, or my bulbs need replacing. Or both. It seems as though I should be in crazy high light but I am not getting the algae in mass like I did last time I was using this light, nor am I getting the colors I was.

Now, I have seen some people on Reef forums claim certain bulbs got them to about 130-150 par where I have the light at now, but they needed new bulbs and it made a vast improvement. I used to not buy that, unless they were really crappy bulbs. Then I saw someone here show a jump from around 60 to 107 or something with a bulb swap as well. Now, I am only running 2 bulbs for 3 hours, the other 2 bulbs for 8 so it's not like I should be well into the 100's for the whole time. I do get plenty of pearling but only when the second bank is on. For now, I will up the photo period to 8 hours with a 4 hour noon burst. I likely will replace atleast half the bulbs, even though I don't think they have many hours (I have swapped fixtures so it's hard to remember). That will allow me to test 2 variables fairly cheaply. I don't want to drop $80 on bulbs if it's not the issue but two could be a better spectrum. I am thinking I may try ZooMed, I know most will say Giesemann. I like being able to replace bulbs locally and I can't get Giesemann easily (I don't think). Some suspect them to may be made in the same factory.


That said, here I am now. It's all sort of random but I am starting to try to get some defined areas. There is some work to be done in the foreground to midground but it's getting there, the background still needs a lot of development. At some point, this may actually come together haha.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Oooh... somebody joined the 12g Long Club I see! 

Nice hardscape placement. And yeah, I think a Sat+ will look much better than that t5.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Oooh... somebody joined the 12g Long Club I see!
> 
> Nice hardscape placement. And yeah, I think a Sat+ will look much better than that t5.


Actually, it's more that someone told me they needed to downsize their setup and the secretly joined the 60P club twice over instead haha.

I actually like the hardscape in the 12 quite a bit, all things considered. Honestly, I invested quite a bit in these stones, I believe around $0.08/lb. I would imagine I spent a whopping $1.25 or so on the hardscape, I didn't weight it out. 

I would love to get some nice stone but again, this was just kind of something that happened. It was on the table and though it was a nice little gift, I told myself I would not have more than 2 tanks. I have almost everything so why not, but if I do want my keyboard out of the closet, it does have priority over the space. Plus, that's 12 gallons of water over about 600 LP's of mine, they are mostly worthless but still, I do love them. 

That's a big reason I am going to dry start, at least then, I can try to find some other place for it, but my wife hates natural style tanks. 

On top of that, I am already tearing down the 10 gallon as well. I really wanted to love the large Java Fern I grew from a tiny one but I don't. Plus, I had to make the choice of U. Gibba or keep it, now I have some idea of how to get rid of the U. Gibba but the 10 will be my "back up tank" for my stems, but will hopefully get trimmed nicely to look good as well. That will come soon, no rush, plus I have to return it to it's previous owner. Will have to take a parting shot.


On that note, what Ramp Up timer is best for the Sat +? I am having a bit of trouble figuring that out, it seems like the single just ramps up, not sure if the Dual does more on this light, and the Pro is dimmable, has effects, but also seems extremely overkill. I would like to be able to adjust intensity but I don't want to pay $75 for it, especially when I am really not using it to it's potential. Please school me on them if you could be so kind.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

So no more 60p for you? Great price on those stones. You can probably buy a bunch and give them some random Japanese name and sell them for like 40X more. LOL

The single ramp timer is best for the Sat+. The extra functions in the dual and pro don't work with the Sat+, as they are listed as "limited" compatibility. Maybe if you had two Sat+'s then the latter two controllers can ramp them both. Not sure. 

Intensity wouldn't be able to be controlled other than with the remote. As far as I know, the Sat+ has to be set at a preset full intensity mode (i.e.. Orange, full spectrum, blue, etc.) for it to work properly. 

If you accidentally leave the Sat+ in a dynamic mode like clouds, it will ramp with some flickering and possible strobe like a disco. The controller within the Sat+ and the ramp timer are basically conflicting. 

I'm not sure, however, how the ramp timer would interact with a dim customized setting you can save to one of the memory buttons though. Like if you wanted to set an 80% full intensity during your automatic photoperiod for instance. Overall though, seems like the best pairing with a 12L, based on all the great examples I see in the 12g Long Club. 

The Ecoxotic E-Series has more automatic functions and control over moonlight and photoperiod intensity. But it's also more expensive. 

If budget wasn't a concern and if you can suspend it, I'd say the e-Series would be ideal. But sitting on the tank, the Sat+ is perfect. Although there is one 12L owner on this forum with a suspended Sat+ that looks great.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> So no more 60p for you? Great price on those stones. You can probably buy a bunch and give them some random Japanese name and sell them for like 40X more. LOL
> 
> The single ramp timer is best for the Sat+. The extra functions in the dual and pro don't work with the Sat+, as they are listed as "limited" compatibility. Maybe if you had two Sat+'s then the latter two controllers can ramp them both. Not sure.
> 
> ...


Thanks for breaking that down. For some reason, I thought the Sat + could be dimmed in a program, not just in the manual mode and my guess would be then you would need the pro, putting me close to the E series price which wouldn't be worth it. I am just not sure if I will go CO2 or not, I could do Belem without CO2 but it may be counter productive since it's a slow grower. I have done HC without CO2 but it's a crap shoot if it will spread or not. I guess I will just have to see and keep a budget for an Aquatek regulator or something, I can only fit paintball anyway so it's not a huge expense. I need to research but it seems most use the Sat + on this tank with CO2, though my 6 gallon wasn't much taller and my Beamswork was fine without, I think it's more powerful that the Sat +, not sure. Thanks for the break down though, again, I just though I saw the Sat + being dimmed before, maybe I got confused.

As for the E Series, as much as I want to give it a shot, it's not really doable here. Not only can I not use conduit due to the stand (Ikea EXPEDIT), I also have weird things going on like accustic panels since this is my home studio. If I hang it from the ceiling, I have to pull the tank forward the light needs to be 6+ inches from the wall. I actually should be spending my money on building those right now.


The 60P is going nowhere. I was just saying, the original reason I ended up with the 12 gallon is a friend said he was downsizing his setup. Then I go over and he has 2 brand new 60P's setup. He tricked me into taking the 12 long. Or, I tricked him into getting two 60P's, one or the other. Just thought it was funny since I got my 60P from him, he's like a 60P OG now.

On that note, last picture I took of my keyboard before it found a home in my closet...just for the drama.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

The Sat+ is dimmable. You have 4 customizable memory buttons that you set the dimming and color to. What ever mode your Sat+ was last set on before it turns off is what it'll be on when it turns on. So you can even use a conventional mechanical timer if you want. 

I'm using an expedit bookcase as my 60F stand. I have a DIY conduit light hanger installed on it. Works great. Excuse the looks of my tank ATM, need to give it some TLC soon and do something about the ugly HOB's. Right now I'm just growing plants out in it.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> The Sat+ is dimmable. You have 4 customizable memory buttons that you set the dimming and color to. What ever mode your Sat+ was last set on before it turns off is what it'll be on when it turns on. So you can even use a conventional mechanical timer if you want.
> 
> I'm using an expedit bookcase as my 60F stand. I have a DIY conduit light hanger installed on it. Works great. Excuse the looks of my tank ATM, need to give it some TLC soon and do something about the ugly HOB's. Right now I'm just growing plants out in it.


Oh, that's great to know. I wish Current was a bit more explicit as to this. It makes it sound like all the manual modes are just that, a manual/on demand type of thing. That's pretty cool then, I am definitely set on that for lighting.

Your setup looks really nice. Your tank looks good too, should have had the light on. My hanger would be much more substantial due to the fact I can't have it agaist the wall except at the side of mine. I can't have it against the wall because I have to install more accustic panels in my room, you can see one in the corner of the pic with my keyboard. It looks think but it's 6 in thick, might do 8 from here on out.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Thanks for the compliment. The tank really doesn't look good though. I mean there's no algae and everything is healthy, but there's no real scape with the plants. Just on grow-out mode. However, I do plan to fix that soon and take proper pics and update its thread. 

On another note, look at this thread, particularly post #113. That's how the 12L would look if you suspended the Sat+. But, IMO, sitting on the tank looks almost as good. Just the former takes more time and energy to set it up. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=

Edit: that link didn't work. Try this one:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=427081&page=8


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Thanks for the thread. That actually looks extremely clean. In my case, the hanger would need to be over 7 ft as it's right by the door on one side, or right where I have my microphone on the other. Too short and someone will find a way to hurt themselves haha. 

That looks way better than I pictured but I am picturing a slim little light hanging from super high. I probably would mount it off the ceiling before I did conduit as well. That does make me more confident in not mounting it, in general, I do like to hang my lights when possible, so that is extremely helpful. Unfortunately, to some level, you have to account for the same things with musicians as you do with children haha.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Are you going to start a new thread on the 12L? BTW, if it's a temporary tank because it's borrowed, are you going to get the 24" Sat+? Down the road you can always repurpose it on the 60p and run dual Sat+'s. You seen how it grew on my 60p.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Are you going to start a new thread on the 12L? BTW, if it's a temporary tank because it's borrowed, are you going to get the 24" Sat+? Down the road you can always repurpose it on the 60p and run dual Sat+'s. You seen how it grew on my 60p.


The tank is mine, I was actually given direct orders to never return it, haha. I conned him it letting my borrow the light as I likely will dry start this if I do HC. Even though I am far from a fan of DSM, unless I have crazy amounts of HC from another tank, I don't really like to go buy 15 pots of HC. So, it will be a 36 inch Sat+. If I do decide to put my sampler keyboard back, it will get re-homed to someone else in the circle. I am rather convinced I will keep it, I have 3 other similar samplers (but they are smaller), and still do almost 100% of my music with a PC these days anyway. 

As for a journal, I may or may not start one. Last time I had several journals on the board, I found myself not keeping up with them. I will not likely start a journal on this until I get past the dry start, updating it here. 

I also feel like the 60P has been a boring thing to follow, it's on it's 3rd journal maybe without a rescape, as I change it around, only to be a bit further behind than I was months ago. It's more about growing plants than a scape ATM, but it will soon be manicured, hopefully mini dutch, not just plants all over. I think the 12 gallon may tide people over a bit as I get that sorted and get some interest going :icon_bigg

We will see, I hope to get to Petsmart and another LFS, get some more black sand and some HC (hopefully hard to find locally these days).


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Update on the 60P, no photo's. So, I went by my LFS store to find some GLO 6700k bulbs, Life Gro they are called. Though they are a bit to white for me, I did immediately notice an increase in pearling. I didn't think my bulbs were that old but I guess they may be, I switched the fixture out so much I have kept track. I only bought two, I may buy 2 more for now, $13 for two, may as well. I do want to try a true red bulb now, however, and a more yellow 6000-6700k with the combo, they seem to be decent quality so why not. Anyway, we will see where this goes.

I really just wanted to put a check mark here for myself so if I do see improvements, or don't, I know the date, what I did, etc. Too lazy to keep track, maybe that's a better idea.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, was messing with the 12 gallon today. May put this elsewhere but I really trust most who post in my thread. I really wanted to do rocks in it, but I didn't want to do the traditional Iwagumi. I am very inspired by the rock outcroppings you see on your way, and at, Stinson Beach. I can't easily just do that so I am trying my best to combine the two. This isn't finalized but I think it looks better.

Pardon the light in the pic, the bulb went out on the other fixture I was using and I couldn't find a non Coralife replacement locally, still have to check one more spot. 

Before:


After:



Let me know what you think, like better. I really want this to be a set and forget tank as it is in my home recording studio so messing around when filled all the time is not really the business.


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

Nice! I personally think the after pic is definitely better.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

AnotherHobby said:


> Nice! I personally think the after pic is definitely better.


Awesome, confirmed what I thought. I know it's my tank but this also won't get a rescape for awhile. I did tweak some things just a touch and am even more happy. 

You are the prefect person to ask. I am debating between belem and HC. Kind of thinking Belem to have the option of low tech. If I remember, you have grown both. How much slower/quicker is the Belem in terms of growth? I have done HC many times, Belem, I have had but never as the main plant. The only downside to that idea is I can't do DHG in the background, a common but really nice combination. I would rather add some stems this time, after it grows out, or some patches of another foreground, maybe mix them. How did your Belem go compared to HC? HC makes more sense, but I am thinking about keeping it low tech, now that I know I can dim the Sat +


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I like them both, but the last one feels better.

v3


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

talontsiawd said:


> You are the prefect person to ask. I am debating between belem and HC. Kind of thinking Belem to have the option of low tech. If I remember, you have grown both. How much slower/quicker is the Belem in terms of growth? I have done HC many times, Belem, I have had but never as the main plant. The only downside to that idea is I can't do DHG in the background, a common but really nice combination. I would rather add some stems this time, after it grows out, or some patches of another foreground, maybe mix them. How did your Belem go compared to HC? HC makes more sense, but I am thinking about keeping it low tech, now that I know I can dim the Sat +


This is a really hard question to answer, because the two growing environments couldn't have been more different.

HC:

Dry start
Fluval Shrimp Stratum substrate (mostly inert)
< 3 gallon tank
Medium light during DSM, Low light after
No CO2, with a rare dash of Excel
Very little ferts 

Belem:

Planted into well established tank
ADA Aqua Soil substrate
17 gallon tank
Medium light (dual Sat+ @ 12")
Pressurized CO2 going through a reactor
Full automated EI Dosing

And those differences showed in the results. The HC struggled after I flooded the tank. Lots of diatoms and algae issues. It's still holding on though, a year and a half later in a full on low tech tank. There is roughly a small pot worth of HC thinly spread across about 40 sq/in of substrate. But the lackluster growth is all due to the nature of the environment it's in, not the plant itself. Meanwhile, you've seen pics of my belem lawn. So for me, it's hard to give you an honest comparison.

That aside, I think the belem has to be much lower maintenance. It's just like having a lawn at home. It roots in much deeper and stronger than HC, and you just mow it down. No risk of uprooting like HC, and it doesn't go yellow underneath if you don't stay on top of it. It's a different look though. HC is so bright green with tiny leaves, while belem is more muted and looks like lawn grass.

You still have plenty of midground and background options. I think something bushy like s. repens or downoi looks pretty good along side/behind the belem.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

AnotherHobby said:


> That aside, I think the belem has to be much lower maintenance. It's just like having a lawn at home. It roots in much deeper and stronger than HC, and you just mow it down. No risk of uprooting like HC, and it doesn't go yellow underneath if you don't stay on top of it. It's a different look though. HC is so bright green with tiny leaves, while belem is more muted and looks like lawn grass.
> 
> You still have plenty of midground and background options. I think something bushy like s. repens or downoi looks pretty good along side/behind the belem.


That's good to know. I have done Belem but never a full carpet, several full HC carpets. I have done an HC carpet without CO2 but you never really know it will work. I have yet to decide on CO2 but I want the option to not go that route if I don't need to. 

I also think Belem will allow for more contrast if I add S. Repens or Downoi, funny, I was thinking the same idea. 

Hopefully I can find some in a reasonable time period, I only know of two places around here that may possibly have it and they aren't particularly close. 

Thanks for the advice, really helpful, Belem is a much stronger contender now.


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## theblondskeleton (Aug 28, 2009)

Looks great! I like the second one, as well. Much more natural arrangement.

I have a love of both HC and Belem. The Belem is a more natural, softer feel, and the HC grows so tight, there is a sculptural quality to it - it gives the impression of a heavier composition even though the leaves are super small. What kind of stone is that? I love the texture!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

theblondskeleton said:


> Looks great! I like the second one, as well. Much more natural arrangement.
> 
> I have a love of both HC and Belem. The Belem is a more natural, softer feel, and the HC grows so tight, there is a sculptural quality to it - it gives the impression of a heavier composition even though the leaves are super small. What kind of stone is that? I love the texture!


Thanks for the compliment and the insight. Still on the fence with the plants, I think HC will actually look nicer but I also like the idea of switching it up. Even though Belem is small, it still may be a bit big for the smaller stones, the tank is small. 

As for the stones, I touched on it earlier but they are just some I found at the local landscaping yard. I believe they were $0.08/lb, at one point I had over 250lbs of the stuff. 

The stones are not pretty if you just bought them in bulk. The people working though it was funny how long I took the first time going through them all, it really took me like an hour or more to get my first 50lbs. Even though my first tank had some pretty ugly stones and didn't like it, when I went back, I showed them a picture and they were pretty pumped on the idea, for awhile I went ever so often.


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## adive (Oct 30, 2013)

talontsiawd, nice tank. sorry if i missed a post where it might be mentioned already but here's my question: 

i saw your post just about when i was thinking of keeping my 4 month old walstad tank plants only, no fish for a while as for some reason or other i lost all the fish.

i have a walstad tank thats 4 months old and its mature and plants are doing great. it had fish until recently. right now there are no fish in it but a lot of pond snails. can i just continue to keep it that way? i dont inject co2/excel. do i need to do water changes? i have been doing 20% weekly changes until now. i will continue with the liquid fert dosing as it was really benefiting the plants. Thx.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

adive said:


> talontsiawd, nice tank. sorry if i missed a post where it might be mentioned already but here's my question:
> 
> i saw your post just about when i was thinking of keeping my 4 month old walstad tank plants only, no fish for a while as for some reason or other i lost all the fish.
> 
> i have a walstad tank thats 4 months old and its mature and plants are doing great. it had fish until recently. right now there are no fish in it but a lot of pond snails. can i just continue to keep it that way? i dont inject co2/excel. do i need to do water changes? i have been doing 20% weekly changes until now. i will continue with the liquid fert dosing as it was really benefiting the plants. Thx.


I haven't done a Walstad tank, per say, but I have done plenty of low tech dirted tanks. You should have no issue keeping the tank with or without fish. Though the Walstad method uses the fish for fertilizer, if I recall correctly, I find that fish aren't really needed, especially if you are dosing fertilizer anyway. 

My point is, I have never had a tank that was highly reliant on fish. I am on the side of the hobby that favors the plants, more than the fish, so I have had all types of setups with either very low stocking levels, and often don't even add fish for a long time, usually when my friend's daughters come over and ask, "where are the fish?" Honestly, to some level, keeping fish is more of an obligation thing, not to my kids daughters but I feel I may as well, it is an aquarium. 

Without fish, you likely can get away with no water changes. One place where water changes are good on planted tanks is that it can remove free floating algae spores. However, if your tank isn't getting algae in any quantity, the water changes won't really help with that. I likely would change the water every 6 months or so, maybe even longer, just so any parameters don't build like crazy but it shouldn't be a big concern. I would do a large water change before adding fish, however. First you have fresh water in the tank, secondly, your parameters won't change once you start doing water changes again.

Hope that makes sense, it's way earlier than I am used to being up right now, haha, so feel free to ask me for clarification. I have had my struggles with high tech but low tech dirted tanks, that's where I do really well. No fish and no water changes should be fine, if things start changing, you can always do a water change and see if it clears any negative things up.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OK, since this is my 60P journal, snapped some pictures. I have 3 new bulbs, all 6,700k, Hagen Glo, I mentioned earlier I found them on clearance. I want to try a straight red bulb, not pink, not pinkish white. I may also ditch a 6,700k for a pink or other color as well, these were cheap so I jumped on them. 

Color is getting better, still not any where near what I want but we will get there (hopefully). Still same lighting routine, 8 hours with 2 bulbs, over lapped the next 2 bulbs for 4 hours. 

Algae is OK, still getting some green on the glass, not much on the plants, other than some concentrated BBA that doesn't seem to expand. I attribute that to my CO2 changing, these guppies can handle way more than I would have ever guessed. 

Anyway, snapped a few pics.







This may get posted later tonight but a bit of a teaser, pardon the dust.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Awww yeah! Welcome to the Sat+ Club! Haha


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## Dantrasy (Sep 9, 2013)

KZ Fiji Purple is another tube option worth considering. but by the looks of it you've acquired a LED light??

Anyway what's the 4th tube you currently have running?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Awww yeah! Welcome to the Sat+ Club! Haha


Thanks! I haven't had a lot of time to play around with it but it's a cool light. I have yet to see a tank with just one, it looks very sleek. My wife told me it looked to expensive and was surprised at the price, just because I have had really bulky fixtures. I will take pics soon.



Dantrasy said:


> KZ Fiji Purple is another tube option worth considering. but by the looks of it you've acquired a LED light??
> 
> Anyway what's the 4th tube you currently have running?


The LED is for my 12 long. I often don't keep up on my journals so this is my 60P, 10 gallon curved corner rimless and 12 gallon journal. The 12 my have it's own journal, I just don't like keeping up with multiple journals.

As for the 60P, I believe I am running an Aquaticlife "Rosette" bulb. There is a slight chance it's a Coralife "Colormax bulb". I am by no means against purple. This tank was low tech for awhile and I had some RGB LED's, I love the Cyan setting. I had considered more than one bulb that wasn't white, maybe red and purple would work. They are on two banks so it would be one white, one red, one white, one purple kind of thing. I will take that into account. However, I still have to dial in my lighting as I could have four 10,000k bulbs and even though it may be the most flattering for the colors, it will have color, what I am not quite getting yet. 

I do have to mention, I never have been good with red plants, plenty of high tech failures too. Any advice is golden, I trust my dude OVT and he says light, more than any other factor is key, and has the plants to prove it. Hope that makes sense, long day, no :beer: smiley on this forum...I don't care :beer:


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, I tried to get "artistic" with my 3 megapixel camera. I haven't had a tank in my studio for years. It's great for boring projects and listening for hours. I think I am leaning towards HC and shrimp, who knows. Here are my attempts to show the tank. We will see how I plant it....


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Sweet ... ! 

v3


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

Nice! 

Out of curiosity, why do you keep the water level so low in your 60P? The lowest I ever let mine get is probably 1/2-3/4" below the rim. I top it off to within 1/8" off the rim.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

AnotherHobby said:


> Nice!
> 
> Out of curiosity, why do you keep the water level so low in your 60P? The lowest I ever let mine get is probably 1/2-3/4" below the rim. I top it off to within 1/8" off the rim.


Oh, haha, didn't notice that. My evaporation has been crazy with the hot weather and AC running. I usually top off a few times a week but I didn't get to it, apparently. Usually it's about 1/2 inch off the rim.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, I am also doing my 10 gallon in this journal for those who may have missed it, it doesn't get a lot of love. I have had U. Gibba forever in this setup. I decided I am finally going to restart it, so I can actually take plants out of the tank and put them in another, rather than it just being the ending point for every plant that enters. I hate U. Gibba and I just need to restart it. 

Anyway, I showed my Java fern, it's getting a new home today. I pulled it out, so crazy this started from a small, juvenile plant about 2 years ago. Until a few months ago, it was in a 6 gallon. 

Here is the size, will tear down the 10 soon, then add all sorts of stuff from my 60P to see what does well in low tech and what doesn't. It could easily be broken up into 50 small plants I am guessing.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

dude nice studio mannnn

ohh and get some vinegar and wipe out all those dry stains on the 60P. They will stain eventually!


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Nice tank but man would I be worried with that glass box of water sitting right above all that nice vinyl. That's a pretty nice home studio by the way. I always had plans to do one myself but then kids came along and squashed that dream. :hihi: I'm too old to become a rock star now anyways. So now I do old people things like garden and yell at the neighbor kids to get out of my yard.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Down_Shift said:


> dude nice studio mannnn
> 
> ohh and get some vinegar and wipe out all those dry stains on the 60P. They will stain eventually!


They are actually easy to get off, I just don't always clean the tanks before photos. I do wipe the inside and outside glass on this tank about once a week, the inside because I do get algae on the glass, luckily subsiding, the outside because I am moving things around.

Thanks for the compliment on my studio, been building it up since about 2002ish, not that I have anything from that time. It's been a long term investment, finally in the black on it, as of last year. I do plan to post more pics of it in "action", showing why it's an awesome place for an aquarium and how well it fits, just need to get further on it. I personally love when people give an idea of the room the tank is in, it makes me think..."why don't I have a tank there". I love office tanks and living room tanks especially. Even bathroom and kitchen tanks are awesome when thought goes into it. Bedroom tanks, last on the list but I have one, haha, why not.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

ua hua said:


> Nice tank but man would I be worried with that glass box of water sitting right above all that nice vinyl. That's a pretty nice home studio by the way. I always had plans to do one myself but then kids came along and squashed that dream. :hihi: I'm too old to become a rock star now anyways. So now I do old people things like garden and yell at the neighbor kids to get out of my yard.


I actually love gardening, I actually have been investing more there than my tanks, and regular gardening is fairly cheap. Like aquariums, I spend way too much time and money on amending soil, fertilizer, etc. I should just water change more, my plants love my aquarium water better than anything else. Algae seems like nothing when you spend a day weeding, plus weeds come back.

Never to old to make music. Buy a simple audio interface and a small Mackie mixer, DI your guitars run a line out through your amp. You can record these days for maybe $300 on a budget, if you are not micing amps and don't mic a full drum set. It won't sound amazing but it's doable. 

As for the vinyl, it's all dollar bin stuff. The bigger consideration was not having a place for my keyboard I love so much, use so little, the vinyl isn't really of value. I do need to be very careful, don't get me wrong, it's all valuable to me. But, I have had to take apart my console 2x so far, one singer gracefully spilled a full glass of wine on it (the master fader/fx/monitoring section), another knocked his beer in the same spot on an aggressive hip hop verse. 

It's my office, it's been my job, though that may change, but a tank has always helped me out. Ideally, I would have it on my back wall with nothing of value (personal or real) but no good way to run electrical to it there.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

talontsiawd said:


> They are actually easy to get off, I just don't always clean the tanks before photos. I do wipe the inside and outside glass on this tank about once a week, the inside because I do get algae on the glass, luckily subsiding, the outside because I am moving things around.
> 
> Thanks for the compliment on my studio, been building it up since about 2002ish, not that I have anything from that time. It's been a long term investment, finally in the black on it, as of last year. I do plan to post more pics of it in "action", showing why it's an awesome place for an aquarium and how well it fits, just need to get further on it. I personally love when people give an idea of the room the tank is in, it makes me think..."why don't I have a tank there". I love office tanks and living room tanks especially. Even bathroom and kitchen tanks are awesome when thought goes into it. Bedroom tanks, last on the list but I have one, haha, why not.


ya totally agree with ya. Definitely love to see where people set up their tanks. It's not just the tank, it's how it's displayed and how it fits in!

I had a ADA tank get etched bad so I never let it dry out. I put some dry erase marker to set the water line where I want it at all times and will always fill up to that line to avoid water lines. Maybe i'm OCD :confused1:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

A night table tank would be awesome. Hm, unless I end up putting my glasses, fake teeth or my phone in there at night. Can't flail my hands in sleep too much either. But where is a will, there is a way 

That Java Fern is simply amazing! I should be giving you all my babies for a grow out and make a fortune. Well grown, Sir.

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Down_Shift said:


> ya totally agree with ya. Definitely love to see where people set up their tanks. It's not just the tank, it's how it's displayed and how it fits in!
> 
> I had a ADA tank get etched bad so I never let it dry out. I put some dry erase marker to set the water line where I want it at all times and will always fill up to that line to avoid water lines. Maybe i'm OCD :confused1:


I will be aware, it's my first low iron tank so I will be conscious of that. Thanks for the insight. 




OVT said:


> A night table tank would be awesome. Hm, unless I end up putting my glasses, fake teeth or my phone in there at night. Can't flail my hands in sleep too much either. But where is a will, there is a way
> 
> That Java Fern is simply amazing! I should be giving you all my babies for a grow out and make a fortune. Well grown, Sir.
> 
> v3


Actually, Amy's first tank was on a night stand when we first started dating. She had a big room but not much to go in it so she had me setup a tank. She wanted to keep it on a budget of $20 as she didn't know if she would like it. 5.5 gallon, regular gravel and an desk lamp with a single CFL. That actually was how I really got into low tech tanks, it thrived, was very nice and didn't even have a filter, had a single dwarf African frog. I miss that tank.


I am glad I was able to find a home. If you keep as one plant, it will be like a gold fish. It started in a 6 gallon, outgrew that, ended up in a 10, out grew that. Before you know it, it will be the only plant in the big tank in your living room.


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## adive (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks Matt. So without the fish it's just much simpler.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

adive said:


> Thanks Matt. So without the fish it's just much simpler.


Yes, exactly. You just take care of the plants which shouldn't have to interfere with fish if you had them, but it's pretty much the same. I think the idea of fish fertilizing the plants is a bit overstated by many who don't have planted tanks, or may have a very small amount of live plants. It's not that fish don't do anything but in general, I see no difference between a fish free tank, a stocked fish tank, and a shrimp tank, so I have had a pretty heavy bio load, fairly light, and none, I really didn't do anything different to any tanks, but got the same results.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, I am having a bit of an aquatic day today. I am kind of bouncing around a lot doing things so I may update all my tanks today, one by one. 

I will start with the bedroom tank, rarely seen, often beautiful. I don't think it's ever looked this nice though....Just playing.


I have had a long term U. Gibba infestation. I don't even know how long ago, it may be 3 tanks old. Every time I redo my tank, I have to decide if I want to keep my plants and the U. Gibba, or ditch them and start over. I have gone with the U. Gibba every time. I just can't do it anymore. My plan is to let the tank dry out completely. Then I will add a ton of stems from my 60P. This will be sort of a low tech, dutchish type tank where I likely will have a little bit, and I mean a little bit, of a lot of stuff. In some ways, it will be my "back up" tank, any plant I own will get plopped in, unless super common so I can keep them all forever, or however long I choose, and hopefully, it's low tech. Some will get nice colors, at least at the top, most likely won't. 

The Betta got housed in a vase and my wife absolutely loves it. It's a bit small for a Betta, maybe a gallon, but it may stay that way. I will post a picture and see what people have to say. If that stays, I will put plants in and replace them as I don't want to light it, at least at the moment. 

Which goes to the next thing, my wife wants Dwarf African Frogs again. I waited all my life to have all rimless tanks and then she throws me that. I will have to see. I may make a stainless steal rim that will be very small but it will also be a total PITA because of the curved corners. Or, I will skip that idea.

In all it's glory....


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

I totally want a froggy tank, too.  I'm not sure they can get out as long as you keep the water an inch from the top? (and of course don't have anything at the surface for them to launch off)

Naturally, this is almost totally incompatible with my desire for a 6 gal long for the bedroom dresser, which is probably the only other place I can reasonably get away with another tank in my house. *grump*

A 1 gal tank CAN work for a Betta, but they'll be happier with more, of course. Since I moved up to a Fluval Spec (2 gal) I don't think I'd want to put one in anything smaller anymore. There are enough people who will yell at me for something that small as it is.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> I totally want a froggy tank, too.  I'm not sure they can get out as long as you keep the water an inch from the top? (and of course don't have anything at the surface for them to launch off)
> 
> Naturally, this is almost totally incompatible with my desire for a 6 gal long for the bedroom dresser, which is probably the only other place I can reasonably get away with another tank in my house. *grump*
> 
> A 1 gal tank CAN work for a Betta, but they'll be happier with more, of course. Since I moved up to a Fluval Spec (2 gal) I don't think I'd want to put one in anything smaller anymore. There are enough people who will yell at me for something that small as it is.


I was going to ask about the water level in the fish section. I am kind of a fan, it's for my wife, she loved the one she had. The 10 gallon is actually "her" tank, the reason I put that in quotes is she has never even touched the water, much less plan anything out. It's her's in the sense that if she doesn't like it, I have to fix it. Needless to say, she wasn't all that happy to come home to that, not that she was mad, she knows how it goes but didn't realize I was actually tearing it down.

As for the 6 long, a few people have made some nice/sleek tops for rimless tanks. Some are quite simple, just using a kit to make a screen window, that may look large on a 6 long but if you get it right, it could be painted up nice. Most don't use the window screen as it blocks light, instead using another material. Or you could get a glass one cut, try to find some nice clips that would fit your glass like ADA and similar. A top wouldn't be hard for me if my tank didn't have curved glass.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, on to the 60P. I am not going to post photo's because I just updated that 2 days ago. I will say that the 3 new bulbs are helping the color out quite a bit. It's not there yet, but it gets better every day. I am not sure if it's just the age of the bulbs or the quality, but I am happy I replaced. Even though I only bought these Glo bulbs because they were on clearance, I do find them to be quite nice. I do wish I had more variety in bulbs but I will wait for the color to come to experiment. There is a chance I will replace the 4th with the same, as they still have some, most likely go with another red bulb, probably an actual red bulb. Anyway, things seem to be improving.

On that note, I can't leave without one picture of the 60P (uncleaned). It's not hard to find HC Cuba out my way, in terms of driving 30-45 minutes each way. However, one of my favorite places (Albany Aquarium) doesn't have much I do around it so it's quite the trip just for the shop. Not that I don't do it, it just used to be about 20 min each way. 

It isn't impossible to get HC Cuba at my actual LFS (well one of them) but it is a rarity if you don't go daily. It actually usually is pretty nice when you get some because so many people want it. Lately I have been going almost daily because I am helping a friend out with his home right down the street. I was lucky enough to score this:


And then there is the 12 long which may be updated tonight depending. Guess what plant I chose for it?


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

Yeah, I'm sure a top could be arranged, it's just tough to pull off well and have look really nice. Some sort of custom rim with really thin mesh netting (made from monofilament, wider spaced than screen, like a fish net, but smaller than frogs) could really disappear... But picturing it my head is easier and cheaper than getting it.

ADFs can jump, but I'd need to check on just how high they can get without something solid to jump off. (Watch the height of the plants, too!) My gut tells me an inch could be adequate, but I'd verify elsewhere. That's lower than I'd want to go with rimless, of course. (Especially with a low tank like a 6 long)

You can get 2 adult ADFs in a 10 gal. Probably 3, IMO, with good filtration, but that's pushing it. I'd probably go with 3 and be prepared for some criticism from internet busybodies.  General rule of thumb is 1 adult per 5 gals. 

I hear you on "her" tank, LOL


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> Yeah, I'm sure a top could be arranged, it's just tough to pull off well and have look really nice. Some sort of custom rim with really thin mesh netting (made from monofilament, wider spaced than screen, like a fish net, but smaller than frogs) could really disappear... But picturing it my head is easier and cheaper than getting it.
> 
> ADFs can jump, but I'd need to check on just how high they can get without something solid to jump off. (Watch the height of the plants, too!) My gut tells me an inch could be adequate, but I'd verify elsewhere. That's lower than I'd want to go with rimless, of course. (Especially with a low tank like a 6 long)
> 
> You can get 2 adult ADFs in a 10 gal. Probably 3, IMO, with good filtration, but that's pushing it. I'd probably go with 3 and be prepared for some criticism from internet busybodies.  General rule of thumb is 1 adult per 5 gals.


We tried two in a 5.5, male and female. My wife (not my wife at the time) had me return the male because their mating is kind of violent compared to human interaction. Freaked her out. To me, it was kind of hilarious because she thought it would be "romantic" to have a pair, only to find the mating behavior can look like another "r" word in the human world. They are loud two with a male/female combo.

Unlike fish, frogs can actually jump jump. Ours actually jumped out of our tank when I was cleaning, jumped off my hand and then I had to run after it, took about 45 seconds to catch. Was craziness. I think I was doing a WC actually so it's something to keep in mind. I was initially thinking if I lowered the water level, have emmersed growth but I remembered that time and that is a no go. 

I am not sure where that will go, it would be simpler to buy a new 5.5 or 10 and just go from there. I may try to do something else, they are really cool, but it's either a super hard custom trim/mesh top, or not going to happen. Or the Betta goes back to his home, easy excuse.



kman said:


> I hear you on "her" tank, LOL


Well, it was cool how it started. Because of the work she is in, and the work I am in, I usually worked weeknights, usually late night, she worked a normal job but built her business on the weekend. Because of that, we usually didn't have a ton of time to chill. I would be at her place with not much to do so she basically saw me on this forum every time she got back from meetings and thought I needed something to do. 

She decided she would put $20 to a tank I could mess with. We bought a 5.5 gallon, some black gravel, and 2 plants she liked. I brought my trimmings, a desk lamp with a 6,500K CFL, worked for a long time, no filter or anything. I kept adding things and now nothing of that remains but the idea but it was cool she did that for me and later we did that and a 20 long (in her 400ish SQ/FT apartment). So, it was basically her way of giving me my place. 

NOW it's different. My only requirement is to not make the tank ugly, that's her way of being able to enjoy the hobby, I can't experiment or try crazy stuff. It works out well, it's usually the nicest tank day to day. She hates when I trim, hates when it's overgrown but 99% of the time, it's the nicest tank in the house, not because of me, trust that, haha.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

According to this FAQ, ADFs can jump 3-4" from a solid base. Less, of course, with nothing to push off. 

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=84033

They recommend a 1-2" drop below the top, but also recommend a cover of some sort. Good info in there. 

Dangit, now I'm getting eager about ADFs again. I have too much going on with my 60P to get distracted by a new shiny toy!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, a quick update on the 12 long. This will likely get it's own journal but since I am doing DSM, I don't want to bore people right now. 

First, even having plastic wrap on top has made me love this light much more. I really need to put it over another tank and play around, I really wasn't able to see a whole lot with black substrate and grey rocks, the spectrum changed but it was hard to see much, much less hard to figure out why people get so excited. Now it makes a bit more sense.

I am doing a dry start for some period of time. I really am not a fan of the method, even though I have been 100% successful, I just think the cons outweigh the pro's. In this case, there are certain exceptions. 

-The tank size and slopes really make it hard to plant the stuff. I was concerned that I would ruin my slopes. 
-I am totally unsure if I am going to go high tech or not, I likely should, but growing HC without CO2 actually is rewarding if you can get it to grow. If dialed in, it is quite easy to maintain with less frequent trimming, not very much algae, etc. Seeing that it's a short tank, it makes it easier but I am just not sure what else I will do
-I am unfamiliar with the light. I have never even tried to grow HC in an unfamiliar setup. If I have a reasonable idea of what's going on, no biggie. This is one of my shorter tanks I have had, plus the light is very unfamiliar to me. I don't want to shoot myself in the foot right away.

That said, I am keeping most my HC in the 60P to grow out. Then trimming the top. This is about 1/3 of the pots, maybe a bit more. It seems like 1 pot of HC would be fine for a DSM if you didn't need it to grow all the way out. I have started with less before. SO, even though there is not a lot, I will be adding more as I go. I didn't want to ditch the pots incase I want some in another tank. My 10 gallon doesn't have enough light, it would seriously change the look of my 60P (not necessarily bad), but I never know what's in the future. For whatever reason, this plant gets harder to get so I need to keep at least one pot around until this tank is stable. 

On that note, I really have no idea what other plants I am doing. I like some DHG but it can be hard to control. I may do some. I would like some color but not sure how I want to do that. Maybe will mix the foreground, maybe not, maybe add some taller plants that would work as a foreground in a bigger tank but would serve as a short midground here, who knows.

Anyway, first day of plants:


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

On to the 60P. Colors are getting better but not there. The tank is a bit "unruly" still, the background is far from growing in. 

On the colors, was changing some bulbs around and realize just how much the light "leaks". I may lower it down, then reduce the noon burst, I really feel like light is going elsewhere. For example, if I put my pink bulb in a certain place, the blue wall behind is red. I just don't know that much is reaching the mid to low areas of the tank.

However, progress is progress and colors are starting to form. No new algae, just the same BBA I have had, some green slime but it's either staying or not getting worse.

I took this shot for another thread showing how it looks in the room:


Here is the front, hard to see colors but they are improving:


The other night I took some poster board to see how black would look. Is it sacrilegious to put a black background on an ADA tank? If I do, will use window tint and not stop until it's perfect. Pardon the text on the poster board but I think it looks better.








And back to no background:


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

If you look at the entries in the 60P club, I think you'll see quite a few of us have black backgrounds. Go for it! I really like the way it makes colors pop.


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

Without the black background, I feel like your plants disappear into the wall.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> If you look at the entries in the 60P club, I think you'll see quite a few of us have black backgrounds. Go for it! I really like the way it makes colors pop.


I guess I never noticed. I am going to consider this, it will likely be window tint so it will be fairly easy to remove down the road. 



vanish said:


> Without the black background, I feel like your plants disappear into the wall.


The difference is less subtle in person than in the photo's but it's still not exactly subtle. My camera is a cheap point and shoot that is many years old so it doesn't do too well with small amounts of contrast. For example, my R. Wallichii has more red than most of the AR (mini I believe) but it pops more in the photos.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> I guess I never noticed. I am going to consider this, it will likely be window tint so it will be fairly easy to remove down the road.


FWIW, BrianCali uses black contact paper (shelf liner stuff). I'm about to try it myself. Even easier to remove than window tint.  We were chatting about this just a few days ago in his tank journal and he linked to the product that he uses.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Yup.. I use the blackboard contact paper. Easy to apply and doesn't leave a sticky residue. You just have to apply and push bubbles out with a credit card to get it looking clean.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I have actually done that before, I couldn't find black so the side you couldn't see had a funky marble texture. It is easier. However, what I like about window tint is that it maintains the look of glass and you don't have to go jet black, I may do like 10 or 20%. It's super easy to do with an empty tank you can move but it can be a pain on a full tank. I do have some room with the Besta stand. We will have to see.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

Found Brian's post:


Brian_Cali77 said:


> It's not paint.. It's actually this stuff
> 
> Con-Tact Brand Self-Adhesive Chalkboard Liner, 18-Inch by 6-Feet:Amazon:Home & Kitchen


Edit: And, the non-mobile version: Amazon.com - Con-Tact Brand Self-Adhesive Chalkboard Liner, 18-Inch by 6-Feet - Chalkboard Contact Paper


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Great. I have seen this brand at OSH I believe, just couldn't find it in black on both sides many years ago. I may just use some poster board for pictures in the short run as I decide.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> Great. I have seen this brand at OSH I believe, just couldn't find it in black on both sides many years ago. I may just use some poster board for pictures in the short run as I decide.


That's what I did to start. I wanted to paint but my wife veto'd it, unconvinced about the black. I stuck posterboard in back instead, and let her live with it for a few weeks, before she admitted she was wrong and the black was great.  A rare victory, LOL! Of course, then inertia set in and that "temporary" / trial posterboard has been there nearly a year, LOL.

I do look forward to the more permanent solution, though, once I get that contact paper on instead. It'll be an adventure applying it in place, though, since I'm not going to tear down the tank just to put a better background on...


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> That's what I did to start. I wanted to paint but my wife veto'd it, unconvinced about the black. I stuck posterboard in back instead, and let her live with it for a few weeks, before she admitted she was wrong and the black was great.  A rare victory, LOL! Of course, then inertia set in and that "temporary" / trial posterboard has been there nearly a year, LOL.
> 
> I do look forward to the more permanent solution, though, once I get that contact paper on instead. It'll be an adventure applying it in place, though, since I'm not going to tear down the tank just to put a better background on...


If you tear down, I strongly encourage you to try window tint. Even if you haven't done it, it's not hard when you can maneuver the tank. It's not simple, it's just not challenging. Again, it maintains the look of the glass. Paint is nice but I wouldn't paint anything at this point, there are times I like white, I have done LED back lighting, etc. Plus, with anything high end, you will loose resale value so removable options are always a plus on expensive things.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, so this tank is actually getting close to the "auto pilot" mode, which is good, but I still am not happy yet. I do have algae on the glass, a bit of BBA, and something that may be staghorn. The thing is, none is bothersome, some just stays the same, some is reducing. Oddly enough, as I throw more light at the tank, the algae subsides. I am not treating the algae, I am not worrying about it, it exists but I am now patient enough to not throw 400 different things at it in hopes my tank is 100% algae free.


Now, I have two problems. As I said, I up the light and nothing bad happens but what I don't get is good color. My r. macrandra is green to yellow, even at the top. That's with a 4 bulb fixture with new bulbs. All my Rotala is showing some color but nothing close to the red I expect from a 4 bulb fixture. I guess I will keep adding light but I see better from less bulbs, I just don't get it, it's not like the fixture is terrible. Even if it was, I still would expect better.

My other "issue". I don't know about the e. tenellus foreground anymore. As I add light, it gets taller. It's about 3.5 in tall now, 4+ blades here and there. I feel like it makes the tank look smaller. Unfortunately, if I want to change, it is going to be very hard to get rid of. I have HC on hand, thinking about that. On the flip side, I know if I can get other plants to color up, this has an amazing red/pink that will be worth the height. We will see, a new foreground may or may not be in the future.

I just don't get how much light I need to throw at this tank to make it work. I guess it could be a fert issue but it's not like everything is close. I don't know.

Anyway, here are some pics. I added the same poster with text so you can see the difference with the black, I haven't had time to think about the background. Tank was not cleaned or anything...


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

If you're looking for more reds... are your plants getting enough iron?

What's your fert regimen? I can't imagine 4 tubes isn't enough light. I've seen tanks with LOTS of red with far less, so I have to suspect something else.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> If you're looking for more reds... are your plants getting enough iron?
> 
> What's your fert regimen? I can't imagine 4 tubes isn't enough light. I've seen tanks with LOTS of red with far less, so I have to suspect something else.


EI dosing. However, since I am dry dosing, iron is challenging. I do add some (way too much) and rarely see a change. I really don't find too much difference when I add more ferts, or forget a few days. I am pretty on point with everything so in general, it's typical EI dosing. I haven't tweaked the nitrates at all, I am a bit scared to for long periods of time.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> EI dosing. However, since I am dry dosing, iron is challenging. I do add some (way too much) and rarely see a change. I really don't find too much difference when I add more ferts, or forget a few days. I am pretty on point with everything so in general, it's typical EI dosing. I haven't tweaked the nitrates at all, I am a bit scared to for long periods of time.


How is dry dosing more challenging for iron? I just mix my iron chelate into the CSM+B micro mix (same way AnotherHobby does it). My reds aren't as brilliant as his, yet, but I've only been dosing EI for about a week now. We mix with water instead of dry dosing, but I don't see how if would make a big difference.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> How is dry dosing more challenging for iron? I just mix my iron chelate into the CSM+B micro mix (same way AnotherHobby does it). My reds aren't as brilliant as his, yet, but I've only been dosing EI for about a week now. We mix with water instead of dry dosing, but I don't see how if would make a big difference.


It's challenging because I don't mix it into my CSM+B so getting anything consistent is challenging when dosing Iron alone on a tank this small. 

I guess the simple way would be to simply add a certain amount of CSM+B dosages in a bag, then mix some Iron in, never thought about that haha.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> It's challenging because I don't mix it into my CSM+B so getting anything consistent is challenging when dosing Iron alone on a tank this small.
> 
> I guess the simple way would be to simply add a certain amount of CSM+B dosages in a bag, then mix some Iron in, never thought about that haha.


Exactly! Pre-mix the two together, just like we do. Only difference is no added water.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

This will be 2 days before the 1 year anniversary of this tank...which happens to be the 1 year anniversary of my wife and I. 

It's a bit strange as I feel I have done, in certain respects, very little with this tank, many plants have been in the same spot for, about a year. On the flip side, I think I have gone high tech, low tech, lowish tech with low CO2, high tech, now I am not sure where to go...

I have "let this tank go" in about 10 days. My CO2 ran out, now I have some BBA, BGA, etc. Funny enough, it doesn't bother me. Funny that even with the CO2 going, the plants still explode. I think I am just going to go "jungle" with this, maybe what I would call "OVT style". I am unsure if I will keep CO2 or not. I was hoping to have the funds for CO2 for my 12 long but it's just not there. Not to be cynical but the first year of marriage was tough, especially for two who truly have poured their souls into their businesses, focusing all attention on that, neglecting all sorts of things, and realizing at the end of the day, we only have each other. That said, no budget for anything fish related until I am working a new job, my business is just getting harder and harder, new opportunities seem amazing compared to my day in what I thought I loved. Sorry if that sounds down, I am just saying, somewhat humorously, it's time to hit the restart on many things and my tanks, my other hobbies, just have to stay on the sideline.

So, likely the CO2 will go to the 12 gallon. The drystrart is quick so i know it's a lot of light. That will be the new high tech. The 60P, well, it's just going to grow into something crazy and get trimmed when need be. I am still keeping the light, just going to two bulbs, raised it up. 

I don't know why but my tank always looks bad in pictures. Here it is now, I really love the look, though you can't see how 3d it is. The only thing is the foreground keeps growing on top of itself so some is an inch or more off the substrate...at the bottom. That will need some major trimming. 

May update the 12 long in a bit, may just wait to start a journal.

Here is the 60P, should have got some side shots but I just didn't have time.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

Nice jungle dude. I had a similar situation w my 60p before. It never looked bad in jungle mode. Always loved it. You're is looking hella lush too!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

talontsiawd said:


> Now, I have two problems. As I said, I up the light and nothing bad happens but what I don't get is good color. My r. macrandra is green to yellow, even at the top. That's with a 4 bulb fixture with new bulbs. All my Rotala is showing some color but nothing close to the red I expect from a 4 bulb fixture. I guess I will keep adding light but I see better from less bulbs, I just don't get it.


Well I have been told the Hydro Sunset is more pink with low light. Seems that is what you are experiencing. Logically seems you would get more color going back to at least 3 bulbs. This is emphasized by the fact you have algae. The algae will suffocate your plants if it get out of control.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Hilde said:


> Well I have been told the Hydro Sunset is more pink with low light. Seems that is what you are experiencing. Logically seems you would get more color going back to at least 3 bulbs. This is emphasized by the fact you have algae. The algae will suffocate your plants if it get out of control.


Hygro Sunset is probably the only plant I know that tends to show less color with more light and CO2. It's not always the case but I have plenty of other plants that should be various shades of red with that much light and will loose color with less light. Not really sure what's going on, I haven't had the best luck with colorful plants in high tech, that was initially the reason for trying it, the challenge. The algae was not bad, especially prior to the CO2 running out and me not being on top of it. Still nothing crazy. 


In other news, I have decided to go in a different direction with this tank, to a certain extent. I was going through the ADA literature the other day and almost every 60P example I really liked, ironically, was not so much of a natural scape. Most had little to no hardscape and were quite jungly. More so, many didn't seem to have much of a midground, it was a small foreground, then stems almost to the top, even in the middle of the tank. I have decided to try that look.

I hacked the foreground last night. I then made two "tiers", the mid ground being maxing at over 1/2 the height of the tank, the background slightly taller. I think this design will look good on a 60P, it's not overly tall but it's tall compared to the front/back depth for my taste. This design will hopefully be much more attractive than the last, it will likely be easier to maintain as I won't be doing a lot to separate plants from growing into another group, plus it's just a simple idea. I am going to try 2 bulbs with no CO2 and see what happens, I have more luck with color without CO2 so hopefully I can get a balance of slower growth and more color. If the light is too much, I will consider CO2 again (want to use it on another tank), or switching the fixture back to the T5NO setup I have used in the past. Either way, it will look a bit different which I think will be a good thing.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

talontsiawd said:


> I really liked, ironically, was not so much of a natural scape. Most had little to no hardscape and were quite jungly. More so, many didn't seem to have much of a midground, it was a small foreground, then stems almost to the top, even in the middle of the tank. I have decided to try that look.
> 
> I am going to try 2 bulbs with no CO2 and see what happens, I have more luck with color without CO2 so hopefully I can get a balance of slower growth and more color. If the light is too much, I will consider CO2 again (want to use it on another tank), or switching the fixture back to the T5NO setup I have used in the past. Either way, it will look a bit different which I think will be a good thing.


Can't wait to see the update pics. 

I am mainly thinking that it is a Co2 light balance that is stopping the plants portray strong colors.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Hilde said:


> Can't wait to see the update pics.
> 
> I am mainly thinking that it is a Co2 light balance that is stopping the plants portray strong colors.


Something is out of balance but I am not sure what. The lighting seems like it should be more than strong enough. My CO2 was crazy high, the guppies can handle way more than another other fish I have had. I was dosing EI, didn't really experiment. However, I would like to get my 12 started sooner so I will likely use my CO2 there. 

When I had my Coralife T5NO fixture, I was getting about the same color, better with some plants so though I would like to figure it out, I just don't care as much right now as I should. I am hoping my T5HO will give me a similar result, plus I have more flexibility with height adjustment, just keeping it to two bulbs though.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

If you're looking for more red in your plants, are you dosing straight EI or have you added the supplemental Iron Chelate to your Micro mix?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> If you're looking for more red in your plants, are you dosing straight EI or have you added the supplemental Iron Chelate to your Micro mix?


I was adding iron, it didn't seem to make any noticeable difference.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OK, I have a funny but not so fun to learn thing. I have really struggled with my tanks for awhile and could never figure it out. 

I have always dosed a bit of Epsom salt for magnesium. Well, today I looked at it closely and it didn't seem right. I recalled, about 3 years ago needing a small amount of laundry detergent when I first moved to this home and stole a bit from my parents. On some further testing, I know its not Epsom salt.

So, all my high tech tanks have failed. I don't dose my low tech tanks.....I HAVE BEEN DOSING LAUNDRY DETERGENT IN MY AQUARIUMS FOR 3+ YEARS.

I have to laugh a little bit but man, that has caused me so many struggles. Anyway, since I stopped dosing this tank, it has turned around. I will get pictures soon but for everyone who has followed my journals and could not figure out why I couldn't get the results I wanted, there you go. Not sure what impact it really had but my low tech have been awesome, my high techs have struggled for, about 3 years. So, if you are going to dose you aquarium, do not use laundry detergent.


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## du3ce (Jan 26, 2013)

how do u not smell the detergent?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

du3ce said:


> how do u not smell the detergent?


Had no smell, I don't know when the bag ended up with my other ferts but the look was a bit off and it didn't dissolve as it should. 

BTW, what are you driving these days, we were both on 6GA.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

talontsiawd said:


> I have always dosed a bit of Epsom salt for magnesium.


When I dosed Epsom salt it killed my Ram. I have read that it is used mostly for sick fish.


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## du3ce (Jan 26, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> Had no smell, I don't know when the bag ended up with my other ferts but the look was a bit off and it didn't dissolve as it should.
> 
> BTW, what are you driving these days, we were both on 6GA.


07 accord sedan v6 i totaled the 6th gen


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> OK, I have a funny but not so fun to learn thing. I have really struggled with my tanks for awhile and could never figure it out.
> 
> I have always dosed a bit of Epsom salt for magnesium. Well, today I looked at it closely and it didn't seem right. I recalled, about 3 years ago needing a small amount of laundry detergent when I first moved to this home and stole a bit from my parents. On some further testing, I know its not Epsom salt.
> 
> ...


So, what I hear you saying is, you're ready to start a new high tech tank.

:icon_twis


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

du3ce said:


> 07 accord sedan v6 i totaled the 6th gen


Oh, I saw pictures in another thread, I remember now, very similar to the 6th gen in certain ways. Dope.


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## du3ce (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks what are u driving now?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

kman said:


> So, what I hear you saying is, you're ready to start a new high tech tank.
> 
> :icon_twis


My 12 long journal in sig. I made a commitment to my wife that my high tech tank (only have one CO2 setup) will stay in my office/recording studio. Since my low tech tanks have done better lately (and I hope I found the core issue), she has been happy with the low techs, hates the high tech. Anyway, that is the new high tech tank, once I get a new job, i want to put a paint ball CO2 system on the 12 long, just because my 5lb and reg don't really fit well, and hopefully do a high tech 60P again. I have to be sneeky though, this tank will get a E-Series if I go high tech, rather than a large 4 bulb T5HO fixture I was using, maybe she wont notice haha.

Bump:


du3ce said:


> Thanks what are u driving now?


My 02 Accord Coupe still. Because my love of AWD turbo, I do want a Subbie Legacy wagon, or a Forester with the 2.5L turbo, that may be awhile away, not at the top of the list. Plus, I want to get my 71 Jag XJ6 back on the road as well. Too many hobbies, not enough time, the Accord is under 80k miles, I don't drive a lot but drive it daily, don't know how I managed that haha.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> My 12 long journal in sig. I made a commitment to my wife that my high tech tank (only have one CO2 setup) will stay in my office/recording studio. Since my low tech tanks have done better lately (and I hope I found the core issue), she has been happy with the low techs, hates the high tech. Anyway, that is the new high tech tank, once I get a new job, i want to put a paint ball CO2 system on the 12 long, just because my 5lb and reg don't really fit well, and hopefully do a high tech 60P again. I have to be sneeky though, this tank will get a E-Series if I go high tech, rather than a large 4 bulb T5HO fixture I was using, maybe she wont notice haha.


Now you're talking! LOL


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