# how many of you follow the no water change rule?



## morelight

Even if i had a real light bio load, such as a shrimp tank, i would still do water changes. More is removed and replenished than just removing nitrates. 
In a heavy loaded plant and fish tank, the well fed fish will give the substrate much more waste than the filter or plants can handle, so here comes the hair or bb algae. i'm speaking from my own experience, your's may differ and you may be lucky.


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## robert

Giving it a shot this week. Only topped off my 10 and dosed. 75 only dosed mono pot phos and iron.


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## discuspaul

No water change rule ? 
You've got to be kidding !!
You want fish to live & thrive - you have to do water changes, sooner rather than later.
Don't do any wcs for a long while & just see what happens, & it will, eventually.


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## Kat12

I don't with my shrimp/least killies.


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## liljaime

I have a 1 gal heavy planted jar with 2 endlers that I water change maybe once every 4-5 months plants grow like crazy so cut them every month never had any problems with it


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## tylergvolk

On my heavily planted very well established low light 20L, I change 50% monthly. If this tank wasn't overstocked, I'd push it even further.


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## Hoppy

I was doing weekly water changes on my low light tank, no Excel. I got a big algae attack. After cleaning it up good, I started using Excel, and switched to a water change every month or so. No more algae attacks.


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## lauraleellbp

Depends on how your tank is set up. For some tanks/fish, no water changes = disaster.

For others, you can go long periods.

If you keep a low bioload, high plantload, and never ever intend to change fish around between tanks, and are someone who can leave a tank alone completely- no water changes can work.

I usually do monthly water changes on small tanks, and one every 2-3 months on large tanks. HOWEVER - my filters get cleaned once a month to once every other month- whether or not I do water changes. And sponge prefilters on some tanks will need cleaning weekly.

I also tend to heavily plant my tanks and stock really small fish (ie- not discus or other large cichlids).

I'm not in favor of pushing critters just to see how long they can go... some people will take that approach. But with experience, you can learn to monitor your plants and animals.


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## Down_Shift

ran a 18g high tech tank. no ferts. 2 XP2 filters. about 6 cardinal tetras and a few amanos.

They survived for over a year until the cardinals started dying one by one.. just topping off. feeding them once a week.

the tank was very very heavily planted. minimal trimming.


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## adive

Good thread. I've gone upto 7 days without a change. On the 8th I dont feel safe for the fish if I dont do a 20% WC. Last week I did a 10% change and the tank was fine for 7 days. Thats the farthest I've gone. This is in my Walstad tank which 6-7 weeks old & quite well established now. I want to try going farther than 7 days in the coming weeks, keeping a close eye on the fish.

Overall, I am in favor of WCs.


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## Obelisk

I had a 20 gallon with guppies and cherry shrimps that I never did water changes with. I would just top off the water that would evaporate. I had it going for months, and the fish and shrimp were all healthy until the day I took it down. I would dose with flourish comprehensive and control nitrate levels with duckweed. 

I would feed very little since the guppies and shrimp were all doing great on all of the algae that was growing in there. There were even large clumps of cladophora algae growing, so it would probably be a bad idea if you don't want any of that growing throughout your tank.


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## Ades_XX

I don't do water changes and only refill evaporated water.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=619001


I verify the copper level monthly, and the rest of parameter weekly (NP, Fe).


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## roadmaster

Old habit's are hard to break.
I change 50% of water in my tank's weekly plant's or no plant's,large fish load or small.
Signed on for water changes when I first began caring for fishes and the routine has served me well.
Ditto for monthly cleaning of canister filter's,weekly cleaning of material in HOB filter's.


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## philipraposo1982

You have test kits for all those elements? 

Is it true that doing a water change when lights are out doesn't allow for drastic change with c02? It would still change the amount of the ç02 but because its during the time where plants are not really doing anything its okay. Is this correct?


This is tank today, from what I understand with very heavily planted tank like mine and a weekly dose of npk and micros there is really no need to do water changes. 

Too many water changes mean a more u stable environment which leads to algae. Also if the plants are acting as a natural filter then there is no need to change water unless its to remove excess. This can also be done by letting the tank go a week or 2 without and ferts and may e even cut back feeding a bit. Its all about finding the balance.


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## roadmaster

philipraposo1982 said:


> You have test kits for all those elements?
> 
> Is it true that doing a water change when lights are out doesn't allow for drastic change with c02? It would still change the amount of the ç02 but because its during the time where plants are not really doing anything its okay. Is this correct?
> 
> 
> This is tank today, from what I understand with very heavily planted tank like mine and a weekly dose of npk and micros there is really no need to do water changes.
> 
> Too many water changes mean a more u stable environment which leads to algae. Also if the plants are acting as a natural filter then there is no need to change water unless its to remove excess. This can also be done by letting the tank go a week or 2 without and ferts and may e even cut back feeding a bit. Its all about finding the balance.


 
I tried as Tom suggest's in his NON CO2 method but I have approx. 135 fish in 300 litre and am not inclined to fix what ain't broke for me= water changes.
With fewer fish, one could go longer between water changes I think.
I am not convinced from my expieriences thus far, that the water changes and or CO2 increase directly after water change , causes algae to proliferate.I just ain't seen it.
Longest I ever went without water change was a month while on vacation.


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## Aquatic Delight

philipraposo1982 said:


> Is it true that doing a water change when lights are out doesn't allow for drastic change with c02? It would still change the amount of the ç02 but because its during the time where plants are not really doing anything its okay. Is this correct?


that sounds made up...

the CO2 is dispersed throughout the water, turning off the light doesn't make the CO2 go into hiding, all it does is turn off photosynthesis. Having the light off doesn't control the level of CO2 in the new water either. 

water temp has more effect on CO2 than if the lights are on or off. Higher temps= higher CO2, lower temps= Higher Oxygen.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy

I packed my tank full of plants and I feel like the tank is at a point (after 2 years) that it can handle itself. It holds tons of fish and doesn't grow algae... I usually go a month without doing a water change on that tank. It could probably go forever without one.


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## philipraposo1982

Do you fert? C02? Low light or high?


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## hitmanx

My 15 gallon has been up and running for 3 months, heavily planted, 14 CPDs, 1 scarlet badis, 6 amano shrimp and 12-15 RCS...

All with no water changes, but i do top off about 1 to 2 cups of tap water per day, which is maybe starting to give me problems because my water is very hard and my gH is now at 35! 


But this tank is clean and clear with no spikes or pollution related deaths :icon_mrgr...
The only algae ive seen has been fuzz algae, some green dust, and some GSA near the surface on driftwood...

I will be doing a 60-70% water change this week after a small rescape as recommended by Tom Barr, but with continue this top off only routine, but maybe with RO water to bring down my gH :icon_mrgr

My 5.5 gallon started march 19 has rececived no water changes either and is in my opinion doing better than the 15, but it only houses some snails, a scarlet badis and some tiger shrimp/ amano shrimp...

Anyways, this is my experience, low light, ferts, heavily planted and not overstocked you can really stretch out the water changes...


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## plantbrain

You NEED to read the *entire article*, not just the part about no water changes. 

Folks think that alone is some cure, no...........it is not.

This is for a non CO2 method, Excel can go either way, but once every month is a wise idea with the Excel dosing methods and fert additions.

Look at things holistically, do not piece meal these methods.


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## dbw27

How do you get the article?

dbw


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## redant

as my 15G is overstocked I do 25% WC every two weeks


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## redant

dbw27 said:


> How do you get the article?
> 
> dbw


http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2817-Non-CO2-methods


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## philipraposo1982

hitmanx said:


> My 15 gallon has been up and running for 3 months, heavily planted, 14 CPDs, 1 scarlet badis, 6 amano shrimp and 12-15 RCS...
> 
> All with no water changes, but i do top off about 1 to 2 cups of tap water per day, which is maybe starting to give me problems because my water is very hard and my gH is now at 35!
> 
> 
> But this tank is clean and clear with no spikes or pollution related deaths :icon_mrgr...
> The only algae ive seen has been fuzz algae, some green dust, and some GSA near the surface on driftwood...
> 
> I will be doing a 60-70% water change this week after a small rescape as recommended by Tom Barr, but with continue this top off only routine, but maybe with RO water to bring down my gH :icon_mrgr
> 
> My 5.5 gallon started march 19 has rececived no water changes either and is in my opinion doing better than the 15, but it only houses some snails, a scarlet badis and some tiger shrimp/ amano shrimp...
> 
> Anyways, this is my experience, low light, ferts, heavily planted and not overstocked you can really stretch out the water changes...


Yeah my tank will follow suit. I will obviously have to see how plants react and whatnot.


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## hitmanx

plantbrain said:


> You NEED to read the *entire article*, not just the part about no water changes.
> 
> Folks think that alone is some cure, no...........it is not.
> 
> This is for a non CO2 method, Excel can go either way, but once every month is a wise idea with the Excel dosing methods and fert additions.
> 
> Look at things holistically, do not piece meal these methods.



Okay, but Tom, how do we deal with accumulation of tds and minerals when we are only topping off? When I first started this method I was told this would be a problem but I remember you trying to argue against it... I realize that your rationale was that the plant trimmings themselves would be the output of excess nutrients and minerals but what if the plants are not growing fast enough or stalled entirely due to excess Gh for instance because hard water is used to top off?

The same plants grown in a softer water tank with aquadoil are growing great despite the same ferts concentration and same hard top off water... so I can only assume that the gH of 35 is just too much for the plants to soak up...


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## Monster Fish

hitmanx said:


> Okay, but Tom, how do we deal with accumulation of tds and minerals when we are only topping off? When I first started this method I was told this would be a problem but I remember you trying to argue against it... I realize that your rationale was that the plant trimmings themselves would be the output of excess nutrients and minerals but what if the plants are not growing fast enough or stalled entirely due to excess Gh for instance because hard water is used to top off?
> 
> The same plants grown in a softer water tank with aquadoil are growing great despite the same ferts concentration and same hard top off water... so I can only assume that the gH of 35 is just too much for the plants to soak up...


35 ppm or degrees? Top offs only work if your water is naturally soft.


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## JeremyM

I've had periods where I've done no WCs on my tank. The tanks can handle it perfectly well, but the plants and the fish always seem to do better (more active, more natural behavior etc.) if I a WC. They prefer several small ones over one large one as well, and I like this method better as it has little chance of stressing the fish out or messing with water perams while still giving all the needed nutrients.


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## hitmanx

Monster Fish said:


> 35 ppm or degrees? Top offs only work if your water is naturally soft.


That's 35deg up from 25deg out of my tap... obviously this method doesn't work when using very hard water to top off and having an open top...


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## JustJen

I can't rely on top offs either due to my extremely hard water. My large, established tanks do typically go a month between 50% changes, but the tops are sufficient as to only need one real top off in between. My shrimp tanks get topped off with distilled or r/o water to ensure I don't raise the levels at all, and are changed more frequently.


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## plantbrain

hitmanx said:


> Okay, but Tom, how do we deal with accumulation of tds and minerals when we are only topping off? When I first started this method I was told this would be a problem but I remember you trying to argue against it... I realize that your rationale was that the plant trimmings themselves would be the output of excess nutrients and minerals but what if the plants are not growing fast enough or stalled entirely due to excess Gh for instance because hard water is used to top off?
> 
> The same plants grown in a softer water tank with aquadoil are growing great despite the same ferts concentration and same hard top off water... so I can only assume that the gH of 35 is just too much for the plants to soak up...


Plants take up the TDS as ferts, as Ca, as KH, as Mg, as N, P, K etc, those are all parts/fractions of the TDS, it does not accumulate if you set the tank up correctly. When you trim and remove some plant biomass, you export.

What goes in, comes out. 

Now if you add say 5 discus in and feed them like mad, add a few vals in the back, nope, that's not going to work on a 40 Gallon tank.

Now if you had say a 90 Gallon, had ample floating plants, a sump with more emergent plants growing in there with good lighting, then you might be able to handle that. 

There's plenty of common sense to any method, but folks do not often approach it that way, they piece meal it and miss the general idea. Or get hung up on one issue. 

There's plenty of ways to get around some issues. So whatever the issue, you NEED to define what your goal is........1st, then ask for advice. 
Otherwise we end up trying to explain every possible case under the sun. 

Start there, then ask.


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## plantbrain

hitmanx said:


> That's 35deg up from 25deg out of my tap... obviously this method doesn't work when using very hard water to top off and having an open top...


Over time it should.

GH will drop and some plants will remove quite a bit of GH also, Bicarb users will.
After a few months, most non cO2 tanks end up with very soft water.

High evaporation rates will counter that, so, adding RO water will help, or more plants.


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## sleepswithdafishez

I was able to resist without doing a WC for 3 weeks.After the 2nd week ,the water was still clear ,but at the end of the 3rd week ,the water had started to get a yellowish color.
Tank - 10 gallon med-heavy planted
Plants -Najas guadelupensis ,Java fern ,Anubias ,Vals ,some Crypts and wisteria
Light 18 w T8
Filter - Eheim 2211
No Excel ,just some P and K from Seachem ,no N(high Nitrates in tap water)
3 amano shrimp and some Red Cherry
1 Oto
3 peacock gudgeons
I did top-offs with DI water from the supermarket(not ideal ,but better than my hard tap water.
Despite the eheim filter ,a lot of mulm had cumulated on the botom after 3 weeks ,so I decided to return to the weekly water changes(about 20%) ,water was changed while I vacuumed the substrate.
Maybe it is because the tank is only a couple of months old ,not enough bacteria in the substrate ,and the fish poop wasn't being decomposed at a faster rate to be absorbed by plants?


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## fish_fasinated

I would agree with the statement that water change vs no water change depends on setup. I worked in the fishroom of my LFS for 3 years. We would hear the same story all the time, I keep losing fish or my fishing are dying. Typically people were just topping off and water tests would show high nitrates etc. However we would also hear of people that do a once a month or even once a year water change and not have issues.

That being said, personal experience, I like to stick to a minimum 30% water change once an week. On my high tech tanks its 50% as these are usually EI method tanks.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## mannye

My 6.6 beta tank is about three years old now and I would top off and do a 50% water change about every 90 days. (RO water) "tropical" as the girls named the beta, loved that schedule. More often and I could see a change in behavior that seemed negative. If I waited any longer, he would visibly "wilt". I guess it all depends on how each individual tank is set up and what the load is. That beta died only recently after at least 3 years of looking happy. I don't know what the average lifespan of a beta is, but three years seems like a lot! 


Sent from my galafreyan transdimensional communicator 100 years from now. G


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