# Plant stems keep rotting



## Dimmer13

Everytime i buy a taller plant to fill the background of my tank, the stems keep rotting and eventually there is nothing left of the plant, or they just die all together...i have some crypts and swords that are doing great. I just cant seem to keep ANY tall plants for the background. 
Its a 30g long with a coralife light. Has a 6700k 96w bulb. I add differnt flourish supplements (trace, iron, potassium...) 

I tried the DIY Co2 and it killed everything. i probably did too much but i dont really want to risk going that route again.

Any suggestion for what else i can do?:help: really would like to keep some nice bushy plants to fill in the back like wisteria or ludwigia...etc


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## OVT

Reposted:


> How do you plant your stems?
> 
> The stem should be cut just below the leaf node
> Plant 2-4 nodes into the substrate
> There should be no leaves under the substrate surface
> Plant stems individually, not the whole bunch into a single hole
> What is the health of your substrate?
> 
> If you pull a plant out, are there any noxious smelling bubbles coming up?
> If you pull a plant out, does it have any roots? Are roots mostly white or rotting black?
> Is the substrate too compacted? How much effort does it take to reach the tank's bottom with a pencil?
> If you add MTS to your tank, do you see any of them alive after 1-2 weeks?
> Do your taller plants bend in the current?
> 
> If any of the answers to the above is 'yes', then I would focus on the substrate first.
> 
> If all the answers are 'no', then I would try 1 or 2 'above substrate' plants (say, banana plant) and 1 or 2 floating plants (say, water sprite attached to the top of the outflow) and see what happens to their roots.
> 
> IME, the primary reason for rotting stems is the plant's inability to grow roots fast enough. All the plants that are doing ok in your tank are rooted plants.


GL


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## Dimmer13

maybe im planting them wrong...say i buy a bundle of wisteria. How are you supposed to plant it. Do you need to clip the bottoms? Becuase i dont think iv done that before. Could that be the problem that i just plant each piece like they are?


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## Higher Thinking

What kind of substrate are you using? I find that plants tend to rot when there is an inability to get nutrients into the substrate around where the roots need to grow.


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## Higher Thinking

Also, I don't think your CO2 could be responsible for killing everything off. That seems highly improbable as you are providing the plants with something they very much need. I would think back to the situation and try and see if something else could have been the cause.


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## TexasCichlid

With stems, it's very helpful to plant individual stems and try to not plant clumps of stems. Clumps seem to encourage rotting. I just pulled a big group of my stems today, trimmed off the tops and replanted individuals spaced further apart.


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## Dimmer13

I belive its eco-complete. its the red and the black mixed together. Dont know if the picture helps at all


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## they call me bruce

Ive found that wisteria does not do well in the first generation to a tank
This what you do --take a new wisteria plant and float it in the tank so that the old leaves begin to grow plantlets in a month they will be big enough to plant but wait untill they are at lreast 8 inches --then carefully plant it in the sbstrate not deep but shollow --the base of the plant must get light not shade-- and wisteria does a lot better with co2 and ferets-- good luck ps - by the way with that in your tank say good by to alge it will take up all excess ferts


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## OVT

they call me bruce said:


> Ive found that wisteria does not do well in the first generation to a tank


Are you sure you are not mixing wisteria with sprite? Wisteria does not reproduce via plantets, sprite does, unless I am wrong again


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## Dimmer13

they call me bruce said:


> Ive found that wisteria does not do well in the first generation to a tank
> This what you do --take a new wisteria plant and float it in the tank so that the old leaves begin to grow plantlets in a month they will be big enough to plant but wait untill they are at lreast 8 inches --then carefully plant it in the sbstrate not deep but shollow --the base of the plant must get light not shade-- and wisteria does a lot better with co2 and ferets-- good luck ps - by the way with that in your tank say good by to alge it will take up all excess ferts


so your saying if i bought a bundle of wisteria, that i should just let it float in the tank till its starts new roots for a new plant?


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## Dimmer13

so when i go and buy some bundles of a stemmed plant, i should clip the ends so they grow new roots, then plant them individually?...if so, what is the proper way to clip them. Would root tabs help at all?


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## OVT

*How to plant stems*



OVT said:


> How do you plant your stems?
> 
> The stem should be cut just below the leaf node
> Plant 2-4 nodes into the substrate
> There should be no leaves under the substrate surface
> Plant stems individually, not the whole bunch into a single hole


--^

Root tabs can be helpful, but not necessary at this stage.


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## livingword26

Dimmer13 said:


> Everytime i buy a taller plant to fill the background of my tank, the stems keep rotting and eventually there is nothing left of the plant, or they just die all together...i have some crypts and swords that are doing great. I just cant seem to keep ANY tall plants for the background.
> Its a 30g long with a coralife light. Has a 6700k 96w bulb. I add differnt flourish supplements (trace, iron, potassium...)
> 
> I tried the DIY Co2 and it killed everything. i probably did too much but i dont really want to risk going that route again.
> 
> Any suggestion for what else i can do?:help: really would like to keep some nice bushy plants to fill in the back like wisteria or ludwigia...etc


What are the measurements of your tank, and your light? Exactly what plants have you had rot? What supplements are you adding besides trace, iron and potassium, and are you dosing according to directions? Are you testing your water for nitrates and phosphates? You say that diy co2 killed everything, do you mean all your fish? All your plants? Both?


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## Robert H

When stem plants rot from the bottom up and never take root, it is always, (well most likely) a LIGHT ISSUE, not nutrients. Light makes stems grow roots. How many hours a day do you run the light? I plant every stem plant you can think of without spaces between the stems, in thick bunches with the band still on the bunch, and with plenty of light they ALWAYS take root, with no ferts or C02.

Light is always the most obvious.


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## Hoppy

A lot of the rotting of stems at the substrate level is caused by a lack of one or more basic nutrients needed by the plant to grow at the rate the light is driving them to. With high light you need non-limiting amounts of NPK and trace elements, plus plenty of CO2 well mixed into the water. With lower light you still need adequate amounts of all of those nutrients. Only with low light can you get by with limited nutrients, since the plants will only grow slowly anyway. When stem plants lack enough nutrients from the water/substrate, they will cannibalize their lower portions, break off, and float downstream to a location where more nutrients are available.

There are two ways to get around this: Use lower light to reduce the growth rate and resultant demand for nutrients. Or, supply non-limiting amounts of all nutrients, including CO2.


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## Dimmer13

livingword26 said:


> What are the measurements of your tank, and your light? Exactly what plants have you had rot? What supplements are you adding besides trace, iron and potassium, and are you dosing according to directions? Are you testing your water for nitrates and phosphates? You say that diy co2 killed everything, do you mean all your fish? All your plants? Both?


My tank is a 30 gallon long. its 36"L x 12"W x 16"H. When i started the diy Co2, everything started to die (plants and fish). besides trace, iron and potassium, i also have the comprehensive supplement form flourish that i had from before. I had wisteria before, ludwigia, mexican oak leaf...and a few others that i cant think of. The light is a coralife with a 6700k 96w bulb. im gonna pick up a new bulb the next time i go to the store


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## livingword26

Dimmer13 said:


> My tank is a 30 gallon long. its 36"L x 12"W x 16"H. When i started the diy Co2, everything started to die (plants and fish). besides trace, iron and potassium, i also have the comprehensive supplement form flourish that i had from before. I had wisteria before, ludwigia, mexican oak leaf...and a few others that i cant think of. The light is a coralife with a 6700k 96w bulb. im gonna pick up a new bulb the next time i go to the store


Even with a good bulb, you are going to be low, possibly into the medium range of light. You might be able to kill the fish with diy co2 in a 30 gallon tank, but I can't see any way to kill plants with it. I don't even think I can get the co2 high enough to hurt the plants with my pressurized unit in my 29 gallon. Did you get some of the mixture into the tank? Flourish Comprehensive has everything Flourish Trace has in it and more, making Flourish trace worthless in my opinion. You are getting all the ferts you need except the Nitrogen and the Phosphate, which are just as important as the ones you are adding, and probably your problem.


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## Hoppy

livingword26 said:


> Even with a good bulb, you are going to be low, possibly into the medium range of light. You might be able to kill the fish with diy co2 in a 30 gallon tank, but I can't see any way to kill plants with it. I don't even think I can get the co2 high enough to hurt the plants with my pressurized unit in my 29 gallon. Did you get some of the mixture into the tank? Flourish Comprehensive has everything Flourish Trace has in it and more, making Flourish trace worthless in my opinion. You are getting all the ferts you need except the Nitrogen and the Phosphate, which are just as important as the ones you are adding, and probably your problem.


I agree. It looks more like a nutrient shortage problem than anything.


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## FriendsNotFood

Why would 96W over a 30 gallon be considered low-medium light? Isn't that over 3 watts per gallon?


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## gordonrichards

Time to start talking to the gurus more, cause the answers you see are already stated. But here ya go, everything all in one post like a burrito:

Usually this "rotting" everyone faces is caused by lack of nutrients in the water or substrate. In your case, yup, probably why the stems are "rotting" 

While DIY co2 is good for plants, you can be gassing your fish to death. I believe that is what is happening. My guess, which is pretty darn good is that you forgot about co2 being deadly to things that require oxygen? Rookie mistake! 

To fix the issues:
Start by saving your fishies lives, they have feelings too and like oxygen.
None of the plants you have require co2, time to stop your diy CO2

After you fix your co2 issue, its time to start dosing more liquid ferts. 
Would suggest following the rules stated on the bottle. For myself, I just dose whatever the heck I want whenever I want. My fish poop so much they make all the fertilizer most of my tanks need anyways.

Shut down your DIY co2 till you get a way to test it.

Low tech or no tech in your situation.
Also, why are you buying a new bulb? You only have two issues.
Ask questions, you'll get answers from everyone in the forum,

-Gordon


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## Dimmer13

gordonrichards said:


> Time to start talking to the gurus more, cause the answers you see are already stated. But here ya go, everything all in one post like a burrito:
> 
> Usually this "rotting" everyone faces is caused by lack of nutrients in the water or substrate. In your case, yup, probably why the stems are "rotting"
> 
> While DIY co2 is good for plants, you can be gassing your fish to death. I believe that is what is happening. My guess, which is pretty darn good is that you forgot about co2 being deadly to things that require oxygen? Rookie mistake!
> 
> To fix the issues:
> Start by saving your fishies lives, they have feelings too and like oxygen.
> None of the plants you have require co2, time to stop your diy CO2
> 
> After you fix your co2 issue, its time to start dosing more liquid ferts.
> Would suggest following the rules stated on the bottle. For myself, I just dose whatever the heck I want whenever I want. My fish poop so much they make all the fertilizer most of my tanks need anyways.
> 
> Shut down your DIY co2 till you get a way to test it.
> 
> Low tech or no tech in your situation.
> Also, why are you buying a new bulb? You only have two issues.
> Ask questions, you'll get answers from everyone in the forum,
> 
> -Gordon


The DIY Co2 has been out of the tank for a while. I took it out when my fish started spazzing and gasping for air. also, those fish are long gone and have had new fish in there for a few months. i started over a while ago. the thing is that when i started the co2 back then, it was from that point my plants starting dying also, so it may have been just a coincidence. 

with the ferts, i do dose by what it says on the bottle


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## Dimmer13

also about me getting a new bulb, its been in there for a while and i read that you should change them at least once a year because even if they still light, it does not emit light of the original wavelength and the spectrum changes. If thats not true then there are a lot of people that are wrong cause i was even told that by the people where i buy my fish


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## xxbenjamminxx

Maybe the addition of the co2 increased the plants nutrient uptake, therefore depleting the of the nutrients (KNO3, KH2PO4) causing the stems to rot??? 

Just a thought on the coincidence of it starting shortly after the co2 introduction....


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## OVT

Dimmer13 said:


> ...i have some crypts and swords that are doing great.





Dimmer13 said:


> I add differnt flourish supplements (trace, iron, potassium...)


Let's read that again: some plants are growing and there is some dosing. Even fish food contains enough nutrients to sustain plant life.
I did not dose anything for years, but plants grew. They did not flourish, but they did not rot.



Dimmer13 said:


> Its a 30g long with a coralife light. Has a 6700k 96w bulb.


I had exactly the same tank and exactly the same light fixture and exactly the same quad CF light bulb. ~3 years ago I was told by gurus that I had too much light. They were wrong: I grew plenty of plants in that tank with little algae, for years. Nothing unusual: 2 gurus, 3 opinions.

So, maybe back to basics? If the substrate is 'rancid', no amount of light and no amount of nutrients will help plants grow roots. And it does not take a guru to test it out.


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## Hoppy

FriendsNotFood said:


> Why would 96W over a 30 gallon be considered low-medium light? Isn't that over 3 watts per gallon?


Watts per gallon is not a measure of how much light you have, but only how much electricity you are using for the lights. PC lights have very often been made with poor or no reflectors, especially the cheap ones. AH Supply PC lights are so good because they had the smarts to design nice big reflectors, shaped to give multiple reflections of the bulbs, as seen by the plants, and using very high reflectivity aluminum. But, companies like Coralife did not choose to use good reflectors. In fact most of those light don't even leave room for a reflector. So, you get less than half the light that a good PC light supplies, when you use one of those cheap PC lights.




gordonrichards said:


> Time to start talking to the gurus more, cause the answers you see are already stated. But here ya go, everything all in one post like a burrito:
> 
> Usually this "rotting" everyone faces is caused by lack of nutrients in the water or substrate. In your case, yup, probably why the stems are "rotting"
> 
> While DIY co2 is good for plants, you can be gassing your fish to death. I believe that is what is happening. My guess, which is pretty darn good is that you forgot about co2 being deadly to things that require oxygen? Rookie mistake!
> 
> -Gordon


CO2 is very good for plants, no matter how much light you have, or what plants you are growing. DIY CO2 is very unlikely to be giving you enough CO2 to gas the fish, in a 30 gallon tank, unless you use a gallon size bottle, with a very good mix of sugar, yeast and baking soda. But, if you let any of that mixture be sucked into the tank, it can kill off the fish. That's why a big DIY bubble counter, with water in the counter, is a must with DIY CO2. It catches any bits of sugar water mixture that might get sucked up. In addition you need a check valve to stop any water from siphoning back into the DIY bottle or bubble counter. If that happens, the sugar water can easily be pushed into the tank, since there will be no "air gap" to stop it.


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## Dimmer13

how well does that liquid co2 booster work?


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## Dimmer13

OVT said:


> So, maybe back to basics? If the substrate is 'rancid', no amount of light and no amount of nutrients will help plants grow roots. And it does not take a guru to test it out.


there shouldnt be a problem with the substrate...it is pretty much new...it hasnt been in there long at all


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## drummerdude

OVT said:


> So, maybe back to basics? If the substrate is 'rancid', no amount of light and no amount of nutrients will help plants grow roots. And it does not take a guru to test it out.


How would you know if the substrate is rancid? Im having a similar problem to the op. Tank has been set up for 6+ months, planted with a large amount of crypts which have been growing quite well. Within the last 2 weeks two of my ottos died, and the plants just started rotting/melting away. No changes to my regime at all, except maybe adding new water (1-2 gal a week) more frequently due to evaporation. I do not add ferts regularly either. Any help would be much appreciated.


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## Aquaticfan

drummerdude said:


> How would you know if the substrate is rancid? Im having a similar problem to the op. Tank has been set up for 6+ months, planted with a large amount of crypts which have been growing quite well. Within the last 2 weeks two of my ottos died, and the plants just started rotting/melting away. No changes to my regime at all, except maybe adding new water (1-2 gal a week) more frequently due to evaporation. I do not add ferts regularly either. Any help would be much appreciated.


Do you use any Excel or similar product? That can cause Crypts to melt. Crypts can also go through a melting phase sometimes anyhow.. Ive had it happen and just left them be and they came back great. 

Otto's can be sensitive to quite a bit. With your substrate being 6 months I would doubt it. What is your substrate?


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## drummerdude

Aquaticfan said:


> Do you use any Excel or similar product? That can cause Crypts to melt. Crypts can also go through a melting phase sometimes anyhow.. Ive had it happen and just left them be and they came back great.
> 
> Otto's can be sensitive to quite a bit. With your substrate being 6 months I would doubt it. What is your substrate?



My substrate is plain aquarium gravel, I dont use excel, I have this liquid fert called "FlorinMulti" by brightwell aquatics, but i hardly use it anymore.


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## Kathyy

Back in the dark ages I tried really hard to set up a planted tank. Made sure the double incandescent bulbs were turned on for 12 hours a day and put as many plants as I could into the tank but counted on fish poop for nutrients. Some survived until I moved into a house and the tank was placed next to a large west facing window. Finally a few of the plants started to thrive. Water sprite grew out of the water and I had to pull it out, put a few daughters back in quite often. Apon grew flower stems. It was great. Then there was a crash. No more water sprite and the apon went into dormancy. The plants had used up all the nutrients in the water.

Feed the plants. Crypts do great with root tabs shoved under them. You may need to add nitrogen and phosphorus as well as the potassium and micros in the stuff you already have.


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