# Tom's 180 wood scaping



## plantbrain

Well, the tank's progression is starting.

This is a 180 Gallon Starfire rimless 3/4" thick tank, 72x24x24,
Stand is solid oak, 24" tall.
Filtration: schedule 80 bulk heads(1" ) in/out the bottom with double gaskets on each side of the glass, thus no overflow nor no tubings going in/out of the top of the tank.
Parallel schematic for the Ocean Clear canister filters, the line is split into two 3/4" pipes that each go to separate OC filter.
One is a 18w UC+ 25 micron peleted filter.
The other is Bio and chem filter. 
They run two lines, with one going to a CO2 in line needle wheel and the other going through a 300W in line heater.

The pump is an Iwaki RTL 40, runs about 800gph at high pressure through this system. Each OC has a pressure gauge to know when to back flush.

I set this up to do a back flushing whenever I do a water change which is weekly, so these will stay pretty clean, servicing OC filters is pretty easy vs a large Ehiem or a Fluval and they are much easier to deal with under a 24" high stand. All I do is use a valve to backflush and another to refill via garden hose. Easy as moving the hose from the yard, to the bathroom.
Takes about 20 minutes total to do a 60% water change using a 3/4" hose.
During which I trim and clean glass and add ferts etc back.

The two separate lines converge into a single 1" line to the return.

Light is a Coralife aqualight Pro hood, 3x150 W HQI lights, I have 2 types, an ADA 8000K and a 10,000K coralife for the HQI bulbs, and I also have a 6700K for the 4x96W powercompacts, still looking for a nice PC 96w bulb.

The unit is suspended via furrels wire suspension and a custom made 3/4 steel pipe which I bent. This gives me 1" to 25" of suspension height, as well as 2 w/gal with PC's only, or I can run the HQI's in a wide variety of timings as well.

The spread is 15" of light over a 24" depth front to back, so there's good spread with this hood vs all the others made for a 24" wide tank.
The height of the fixture is a mere 2.75" thinner than any other.

Sediment is mulm+ ADA AS. The tank will dry started since there will be a fair amount of HC.

CO2 is via a 10 lb tank, Victor medalist regulator, Clippard solenoid, AC needle valve(2 of them), Venturi mazzei needle wheel hybrid. Yes, it works like wildfire:tongue: 

Wood is the main theme here. I seek a different main theme of scaping materials, colors, fish and regional biotope.

The wood is nice and turns black when submersed.
Rather than adding attached weeds to it and hiding this pretty piece of wood, I opted to allow it to be seen. I decided on brigther colored plants and lower growing trimming styles.

Fish load:

200 Cardinals
30 Marbled Hatchets
30 Nannostomus espei
5 Apisto ags (red)
5 Apisto borelli (Blue)
5 Apisto Veijta (yellow)

cleaner crew:
150 Amano shrimp
Cherry shrimp

Pleco list:
5 Sturisoma
5 Gold Nugget
4 Mango
5 Gold spot
4 Scribbled

All of these species interact well together.
They also school in their prospective species groups in well defined packs.

Plants:
HC mostly(around entire tank,).
Some moss, most likely Fissedens or Xmas(to hide out/intakes)
Erio setaceum (on right side near back of wood branches)
Rotala wallichii (rear off center)
L pantanal (rear left)
Crypt blassii "rosanervig"(dark shaded corner on far left)
Tonia(either manuns or belem) (front/middle ground, cut low)
P. dowoni (like tonia, near front, darker spots)
E stellata*(maybe) (rear middle, with Rwallichii)
Limnophila aquatica*(maybe) (rear middle left)
Crypt lucens or gecko*(maybe) (fill in on back side)
I have some nice R pusillia I recently got I like as well.


That's pretty much it.
I may add some Bolbitus or narrow Java, but only to fill where nothing else might grow.

Plecos have more holes than you can tell here, I drilled out some of the cores of the branches so they can hide. There are a number of hollows.

Tank without soil or light rails:









And 









Tank with soil and light rails:









Regards,
Tom Barr


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## CmLaracy

looks great!! get 'er planted and filled up, then we're in business!!!

One of the best woodscapes I've seen, more than Amano worthy!!


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## Crystalview

Love the wood.


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## roybot73

I have a feeling that this is going to be absolutely mind blowing...
:eek5::eek5::eek5::eek5::eek5:


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

That is some amazing looking wood pile you have. Can we get some under the hood shots? The filter set up sounds rock solid.


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## sNApple

where does one buy a nice tank like that? nice woodscape too


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## plantbrain

Tank was custom made.
The wood was collected north of here, up near the Eel River. There's more, it's just you need a 4wd and be strong enough to hack off and haul it away. 

I have more I'll be adding to my 60 Gallon cube as well.
It'll be polar opposite really, darker plants, epiphytic attachment, white sand bottom etc.

Same wood type though.

I might use a relatively unknown plant for for the foreground for the 180 gall though and not use the HC at all.
But it's not bright enough colored for me really.

Amano made a comment in the past about rocks, I decided to see if I could make a statement using only wood alone.

The other 120 Gal will be a stone based tank.

Most of the others: wood.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## sick lid

*eyes glazed* Oohhhhhhhhh.......:drool:


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## frozenbarb

Crazy wood you got there, I saw it at Fishforum.net too.

Pretty cool a scape tank that is actually in your HOUSE


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## loachlady5

CmLaracy said:


> l...One of the best woodscapes I've seen, more than Amano worthy!!


Definitely:thumbsup:! That's exactly what I was going to say.


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## EdTheEdge

Subscribed


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## dekstr

Subscribed! The wood scape is incredible.


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## colinthebassist

Hey Tom, would you be able to post some more detailed pics of your lighting setup? I'd like to use some conduit to hang my lights from, similar to what some other people here on the boards have done. Thanks. BTW I love the wood you got for this tank.


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## ikuzo

plantbrain said:


> I might use a relatively unknown plant for for the foreground for the 180 gall though and not use the HC at all.
> But it's not bright enough colored for me really.


what plant are we talking about? marsilea?



plantbrain said:


> Amano made a comment in the past about rocks, I decided to see if I could make a statement using only wood alone.


Tom, with this baby you make a really a strong statement


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## jaidexl

Holy driftwood, plantman!

I'd almost be inclined to minimally plant that thing and create a biotope, but I know that's a tuffy to resist for the plantbrain


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## BiscuitSlayer

Tom,

I have been waiting for you to post something like this. Do you have any plans to finish the stand or are you going to go with the natural look?


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## Dan in Aus

i love it  subscribed


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## CmLaracy

The tank's size is equivalent to that of a 180P if I'm not mistaken? That's a beautiful size, very tough to properly scape though. the mark of a true professional Aquascaper


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## James From Cali

Wow Tom, wow.....

Thats all I have to say. It will be amazingly beautiful.


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## plantbrain

BiscuitSlayer said:


> Tom,
> 
> I have been waiting for you to post something like this. Do you have any plans to finish the stand or are you going to go with the natural look?


Rubbed oil.
Later, I'll bleach the wood a lighter white when I move next.
It matches the floor which is also Oak.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## natx

Going to be a good one.


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## plantbrain

CmLaracy said:


> The tank's size is equivalent to that of a 180P if I'm not mistaken? That's a beautiful size, very tough to properly scape though. the mark of a true professional Aquascaper


I really do not think so, it's the smallest size to make use of the all of the species of plants, and get the details and textures from the widest choice of available materials/fish and plants.

So the trade offs for scaping are very well met with this set of dimensions.

Larger tanks are just more work and tougher to prune etc.
But they offer a lot of fish species choices, REAL communities , not just a couple of species. Or you can really highlight one species very well or one plant etc.

You have options and good set of trade offs.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## CmLaracy

plantbrain said:


> I really do not think so, it's the smallest size to make use of the all of the species of plants, and get the details and textures from the widest choice of available materials/fish and plants.
> 
> So the trade offs for scaping are very well met with this set of dimensions.
> 
> Larger tanks are just more work and tougher to prune etc.
> But they offer a lot of fish species choices, REAL communities , not just a couple of species. Or you can really highlight one species very well or one plant etc.
> 
> You have options and good set of trade offs.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Well have fun with it!! I'm really excited to see it's progress!! :icon_cool :icon_cool :thumbsup:


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## garuf

How long are we going to have to wait for everything to go in? I can't wait. 
Can we see more details on the filter and lights too please?


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## plantbrain

I have a lot on my plate. So progress is slow.

And that is fine with me.

It'll be at least 2 months before fish are in there(April or so)


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Gatekeeper

Sweet goodness that is banging driftwood. Love the custom tank. Should be a pleasure to watch unfold.


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## kzr750r1

Any idea what kind of wood this is? You mention it turns black when wet and where it came from but no other detail.

Nice start Tom.

Is this yours or a clients?

On another note who made the stand?


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## jazzlvr123

its cedar wood, seeing this sucker in person is absolutely beautiful the picture doesn't do it justice hehe, its already a work of art and theres not even plants or fish in it yet. cant wait to see it when its all done


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## Jens

How is the quality of the seams on the tank, ADA equal? 

Nice wood pieces, Altums would look nice in there.


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## plantbrain

kzr750r1 said:


> Any idea what kind of wood this is? You mention it turns black when wet and where it came from but no other detail.
> 
> Nice start Tom.
> 
> Is this yours or a clients?
> 
> On another note who made the stand?


This is *all mine, all mine.............*

The wood is cedar.
It has no aroma though, unlike the Southern swamp cedar I'm more familiar with.

I wanted redwood, but it looks too nice to add to a tank, and was not the shape I wanted. I could not find the right piece. Even with 100's of root pieces to pick from.

I never get clients that ever give me a blank slate:icon_cool 
That would be rarer than the wood

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

Jens said:


> How is the quality of the seams on the tank, ADA equal?
> 
> Nice wood pieces, Altums would look nice in there.


Not as good, I have a new custom glass tank maker locally here though, if folks are interested, I can refer folks to him.
He's as good as the ADA stuff.
Not bad pricing either.

But it's certainly over built and have thicker glass than ADA and is starfire.
the seams will not leak in my lifetime.
It'd be 3000$ if you had ADA on it.
I can still polish the edges up though.

Altums are not really good fish to keep in the hobby I think.
I'd feel this tank is too small for adults personally.

300-500 Gallon yes..........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## kzr750r1

:icon_roll Not going to go poach your spot mon, just asking. We were bouncing around comments about wood a couple of weeks back.

So your comments mean this is your baby. Have fun with it.

Still curious about what foreground plant your going with...


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## Badcopnofishtank

Very nice start.


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## ikuzo

looks like there's not much room left there seen from the side shot. that wood is a huge one allright. i'm curious too about the scape.


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## GDominy

Tom this is going to be spectacular... I cant wait to watch this develop.

I've always wondered what your own personal tank would look like, this is going to be a beaut.


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## Pat7676

This looks great i love how you have the wood set up can't wait to see this with plants.


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## plantbrain

ikuzo said:


> looks like there's not much room left there seen from the side shot. that wood is a huge one allright. i'm curious too about the scape.


It's actually pretty thin, it will not take up as much as you might think.
I have some C blassii rosanervig pink vein that require low light to express the coloration so they have a nice home in the back, where it's deep and the filter comes out. It's a made to order spot for my favorite plant.

Yes, the in and out flows are in this picture BTW.
No PITA to clean lily pipes for me, suckers break if you look at them wrong.
Lok Line and built in bulk heads. I have 2 currents running through the tank.
I also have a modified needle wheel CO2 injector pushing 300gph for spot dosing of CO2.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

FYI, the plants are stems etc, but are going to mowed and kept low.

So the open feel and the wood are still allowed to be seen and felt.

Fish load will be pretty nice too.

Regards, 
TomBarr


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## plantbrain

GDominy said:


> T
> I've always wondered what your own personal tank would look like, this is going to be a beaut.


So have I 
Been a long time.
Everything centers around testing and plant species etc.

Not much space for actual gardening in there lately:thumbsdow 
Time to change that a bit.

Regards, 
tom barr


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## slimy

Tom,
Glad to see you finally had a chance to start your first planted tank.
For articles and information you can visit: http://www.barrreport.com/
If you need any help let me know!
<grin>


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## Zanders

more pics


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## plantbrain

slimy said:


> Tom,
> Glad to see you finally had a chance to start your first planted tank.
> For articles and information you can visit: http://www.barrreport.com/
> If you need any help let me know!
> <grin>


No, actually about 15 years ago I did one but it was mainly based on growing many species together, it was what Jeff Kropp once said: a Zoo.

But, there where decent elements of scaping in volved and the Congo tetras do look nice in MH's.










Oh, I did do a 75 Gal in there when at Florida.










But my thoughts and goals are not scaping so much in general.
If I want to see or view nature, that is precisely where I go, outdoors to the stream, lake, tidepool, river, wetland, bog etc.










Deep in a verdant forest of Redwoods, sunlight dances of the many shades of green, leaves of aquatic plant reflect the excitement that is life, the sublime experience leaves us in awe.

Come on, that's just not me. I can write silly ADA poems too.
A poem or picture is fine, but it does not compare to being there, experience it, living it.

The same is true for pictures of aquariums.

Life is real and should be tasted, felt, seen, heard, touched.
It is far more real than any art and invokes far more emotion.
As such, our tanks are life as well, and deserve the same respect.

Chew on that for awhile.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## GDominy

plantbrain said:


> but it does not compare to being there, experience it, living it.


Couldn't agree more. Its definately one of the perks living on the west coast here in Canada... Pretty much surrounded by wildnerness


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## garuf

Tom, where are the inlet/outlets? I keep looking and I can't see them. 
Also how are you planning on removing the surface scum all tanks get at some point if you have no surface skimmer?

I'm growing more and more fascinated by this set-up.


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## NeverEndingNinja

Not sure about in intake, but looks like the outflow is in the rear left hand corner. Look at the third picture in the first post.


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## Wö£fëñxXx

Nice job Tom, I like your light hangers too I believe I noticed from another thread.
When I purchased and received my 120P it took me around two months to get it setup, I took my time and had a lot on my plate also, looking back I really enjoyed that part of the process too.
It really paid off taking my sweet time.
Looking good., although, the moving part sucks, I do not envy you there at all.


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## plantbrain

garuf said:


> Tom, where are the inlet/outlets? I keep looking and I can't see them.


Hehe, that's the point.
One is pointing right at you actually, it's coming up through the gravel.
Add plants, there's no way you can see anything.



> Also how are you planning on removing the surface scum all tanks get at some point if you have no surface skimmer?
> I'm growing more and more fascinated by this set-up.


No need, I have no surface scum(SS) on any of the tanks I have used canisters on.

The main plus for a sump and skimming is really easy of maintaining the water level(But you are screwed if you do not add enough water to the sump when you leave for a week or 2 without an auto top off+ float switch etc).

With good plant growth, large 50-60% weekly water changes, good CO2, good current, little issues arise.

If you drive plant growth well, have good pearling and surface movement (ripples but not enough to break the surface) , SS should not be an issue.

Folks without good current and that have poor or variable plant growth/CO2, seem to have a lot more SS issues.

How does ADA do it you might ask as well?
Only a few of the larger tanks have the Surface skimmers.

If ADa can, so can I, but those darn lily pipes. They get dirty fast and then are an even worse eye sore. You can use the metal in/out lets that ADA makes, but then it's still just another pipe going in/out of the tank.

Take a look at the 15 year old tanks, the 90 Gallon avove, see any pipes?
Overflow? Heater? There are no drilled holes either, see any wires other than the Lights?

Nope.

Same approach here.

But Collectoritus is not an issue these days. I am fine because all the rarer plants are pretty much always available now.

So I can scape without worry.
And I have several good sized tanks to chose from.

I'll take some more pics later tonight.

The outflow is 2 3/4" Lok line's coming from the left actually, the right is the 1" intake. You'll never see it buried in the weeds.



















That's the opposite leaf hygro, it turns red under intense light, a nice bright green otherwise, a more preferred color to me.

It makes a nice easy to deal with foreground or middle or even background plant.

Easy to care for and it's easy to prune.
Does not grow straight up or get scraggely.

Note, this is not the dwarf Hygro I sold in the past and showed a small nano full of it.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Nice job Tom, I like your light hangers too I believe I noticed from another thread.
> When I purchased and received my 120P it took me around two months to get it setup, I took my time and had a lot on my plate also, looking back I really enjoyed that part of the process too.
> It really paid off taking my sweet time.
> Looking good., although, the moving part sucks, I do not envy you there at all.


Well, using Glass suction disc make moving large tanks a snap, I bought 4, each holds about 150lbs, so that's about right for the 180 and 4-6 people and tic tac ing it. The 120 gal is easy with 2 folks using the disc.

Still, no small chore.
Gladly, several folks from the local plant club offered their help, and where well fed for their services.

Good reason to have a local plant club if nothing else

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## MARIMOBALL

Is this a glasscages.com tank? Im trying to decide on a ADA 120p or a glasscages 120cm starfire tank, but don't know how good is the finished edges on the glasscages tank.


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## plantbrain

If you live in LA, just go with Lemar, they make custom glass tanks with nice edges.

Rainbow Pet shop can order you one.

Regards, 
tom barr


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## MARIMOBALL

Tom you don't remember but I bought aquasoil from you and I picked up the soil at Rainbow pet Ill give them a call thanks.


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## plantbrain

I remember you. I'm old, not senile.:thumbsup: 

Here's some new pics of the filters etc and the back of the tank.



















Since folks have trouble visualizing the bulkheads and concept of no tubes and no overflow, here's a tank without any wood(yet):










Here's the 38 gal with everything under there, just waiting for the tank really.


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## plantbrain

Dup post of senility


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## turbowagon

haha, what an ironic double-post with the senile comment.

Looks like a sweet setup. I'm looking forward to seeing it progress.


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## samckitt

Tom, what is the white material you have under the tank itself?


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## NeverEndingNinja

polystyrene.


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## samckitt

Like a sheet of Styrofoam? What for, cushion? Is that required? I have never done that & not had any problems.


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## garuf

Thanks tom, I get it now :$.
I wish I'd had the foresight to have bought a custom tank now rather than my butchered 10. 
Also interesting you mention about SS, I'm plauged with the stuff even though my co2 is constant I run EI and have pearling (algae too though).

Also you mention a sump helps to keep the tank water level constant? I must so I like this idea as in a week I lose 2" of water through evap. and could really do with cutting it back. This is on just a 10! I'm fearful my 5 will lose even more through evap in a week.


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## @[email protected]

garuf said:


> This is on just a 10! I'm fearful my 5 will lose even more through evap in a week.


evap depends on heat of the water, humidity of the surrounding area, and surface area. unless you 5gal has the same surface area as your 10gal the water will evaporate less then in the 10gal, but it will still lose more fractionally (if the 10 loses 1/5 the 5 could lose 3/10).


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## garuf

Oof, still not great, I don't want to clog Tom's thread so I'll start a new one.


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## plantbrain

samckitt said:


> Like a sheet of Styrofoam? What for, cushion? Is that required? I have never done that & not had any problems.


With heavy tanks, it's not a bad idea.
Reduces any pressure points.
These tanks weight a lot for their sizes and are frameless.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

turbowagon said:


> haha, what an ironic double-post with the senile comment.


Ah.......but.......

Irony has no limit.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

garuf said:


> Oof, still not great, I don't want to clog Tom's thread so I'll start a new one.


Mod's might care, I don't too much

In CA we get high evaporation rates, some places(SE USA) need humidifyers though. Sumps are nice for maintaining constant levels, but I can still those if I so chose, I have some nice CPR overflows for all of the tanks and a sump is nothing more than a tank and some egg crate and bag filter, some bio etc.

Not hard to add or delete, even with the system I have, they both would be independent, having a closed loop canister and an open gravity fed sump.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## tpl*co

So Tom,

Is this the same tank that was on craigslist? :icon_wink


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## plantbrain

Not quite, but I hired that same guy to make some tanks for me and repair that broken 120.

Sort of wish I'd met him 6 months prior.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Fernando_OC

Hi Tom, tank looks awesome!!! Im actually looking for a rimless tank builder in CA right now and would love the contact info of the builder of this tank. Thank you


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## samckitt

plantbrain said:


> With heavy tanks, it's not a bad idea.
> Reduces any pressure points.
> These tanks weight a lot for their sizes and are frameless.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


So with a framed tank it is not necessary? I have never put it under my 75G.


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## plantbrain

His name is Keith, 916-761 3474.
Mention me and realize he lives in Sacramento.

It's a bit of drive to get your tank, Lemar is local to you.

300-400$ in gas, rental, 12 hours of driving etc?

Might be worth it to simply get it locally via Lemar.
I know Juan at Rainbow Pert Shop does good pricing from Lemar.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Fernando_OC

Thank you Tom, Yeah im also considering Lemar but ofcourse i want to compare cost between these two and a couple others out there. Thanks again


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## plantbrain

I think for the $, the Lemar are your best option where you are at.
They do high line work, the edges are really nice etc.
The ADA tanks you can buy up here also if you wish, AF will sell you them.
Same drive. Depending on the tank size, bring a truck etc.

Or, you can save a bit, and get a nice Lemar for about 1200$ rimless 120 gal with starfire etc. The 180 was about 1600$. 

GC's is cheaper, but the edge work is lacking.
Still, they look decent, and not many are going to look too much at that.
Their stands are decent and well priced.

Keith is mostly trying to compete with Lemar, not GC's, his work is better and he does nice edge work.
ADA has nice edge and silicone work as well.

So you have several options really.

This is what I chose and if I did it over again, I think I would have gotten Keith to do the tanks, then bought the stands from GC's or hired some guy here to make them.

Stands are easy to find folks to make them for you.

Oddly, I use to do cabinets etc Trucks and Vans, but no longer have the wood shop and all the goodies that made it a snap to make things.

I made 240 Gal stand and hood, cost me 40$ and took 2 hours to make, then I sold them in the late 1980's for 300$.
Sweet deal for me. I made 32 of them over a year.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

samckitt said:


> So with a framed tank it is not necessary? I have never put it under my 75G.


Generally not because the frame elevates the tank up on the outer edges only.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## fishscale

Not to derail, but how do you make stands for large tanks? And by large, I mean tanks greater than 500 gallons. Do you need a structural engineer or someone to approve it? (Or at least, should you?) I see a lot of stands that have metal cages and then are skinned with wood. Is that what you usually do?


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## plantbrain

For tanks over 300 gal, it's wise to go to steel I beam.

But that's not in this tread nor would I put such a tank in my home here, tanks that size need built into the home itself as a concrete structure with rebar etc, then yes, you get approval. Much like making a pool inside your home.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jaidexl

Tom , you're no stranger to FL, any chance you know of some rimless builders over here?


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## jazzlvr123

plantbrain said:


> Deep in a verdant forest of Redwoods, sunlight dances of the many shades of green, leaves of aquatic plant reflect the excitement that is life, the sublime experience leaves us in awe.
> 
> Come on, that's just not me. I can write silly ADA poems too.
> A poem or picture is fine, but it does not compare to being there, experience it, living it.
> 
> The same is true for pictures of aquariums.
> 
> Life is real and should be tasted, felt, seen, heard, touched.
> It is far more real than any art and invokes far more emotion.
> As such, our tanks are life as well, and deserve the same respect.
> 
> Chew on that for awhile.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr



wow tom, as us the the jazz would would say. your a deep cat, I digg.


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## plantbrain

jaidexl said:


> Tom , you're no stranger to FL, any chance you know of some rimless builders over here?


No, I DIY when I lived there.
I modified the 75 Gal AGA and busted the rim off the top.
No easy feat, then made glass slats for the top to add strength.

When you glue and allow the silicone to cure, give it 2-3 weeks before filling.

Check and ask some of the glass glazing places.
They might if you explain to them what you need.
GC is not that far from FL, about a day's drive.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

jazzlvr123 said:


> wow tom, as us the the jazz would would say. your a deep cat, I digg.


Well, I know myself. Even if what I know is against the PC bull many want to subscribe to and conform, that's up them, I make my own choices.
I do not let others define it for me. Oddly, this is much as keeping aquariums as it is philosophy. How you make your choices and what appeals to you is a philosophical process. What you believe, what logic prevails, your approach, how you got to that point and why. Science is no different either. It is deeply and definitively rooted in Philosophy(See Kant, Bacon, Popper, Plato etc). 

Here's the opposite type tank to this 180 wood scape:










It will have white sand/gravel, no rooted sediment plants.
Anubias, Bolbitus, Fissidens, some narrow leaf java fern, Riccia. All epiphytes, contrasted with no epiphytes and the deep ADA soil, dark deep plants to contrast with the Congo tetras, but very bright sediment from below. 

The 180 is more colorful, open, fish are well matched to the layouts for each.
I've kept all these fish for some time so I know their behavior.

Some suggested the wood took up a lot of space, however this view might show how well suited this wood is for the layout, offering plenty of character, form, proper sizing to this tank, as well as planting space.










Also, if you look at the back end farthest away from you on the right, you can see the other outflow from the filter. The water blast out and upward from there as well as another line that comes down the other side around the wood.

Since that area is well shaded and hidden back there, I will add the Crypt blassii var Rosanervig back there. This will allow it to get nice and tall, develop nice veination, has very deep sediment(6-7"), and lower lighting.

PS stop by for some more AS and see if you want the wood I got.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Raul-7

jaidexl said:


> Tom , you're no stranger to FL, any chance you know of some rimless builders over here?


Don't mean to derail this thread, but lurk and search around ReefCentral and I'm sure you'll find a reputable builder. I remember seeing quite a few, but don't recall any. Ask around the local FL groups there.


----------



## garuf

plantbrain said:


> Mod's might care, I don't too much
> 
> In CA we get high evaporation rates, some places(SE USA) need humidifyers though. Sumps are nice for maintaining constant levels, but I can still those if I so chose, I have some nice CPR overflows for all of the tanks and a sump is nothing more than a tank and some egg crate and bag filter, some bio etc.
> 
> Not hard to add or delete, even with the system I have, they both would be independent, having a closed loop canister and an open gravity fed sump.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Thanks for that Tom, 
When you say you can add a sump to this tank and maintain your water levels is there anyway of adding this to a tank that's already set up using lilys?
my evaporation issues bother me no end as in one week I'm losing 4litres+ from a 10gallon tank. 
Sorry forgive me for not understanding the logistics of this aspect I'm still a noob to this hobby.


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, you can do this w or w/o lily pipes.

As long as it's a canister closed loop, makes no different.

If you use a canister as return filter, then it doses not work.
Do not forget the anti siphon hole about 1/4" from the top(Cannot do easily with a lily pipe).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## neilfishguy

what is holding you up from putting water in this baby? I cant wait to see this it will definitly be one of the best tanks on TPT!


----------



## garuf

plantbrain said:


> Yes, you can do this w or w/o lily pipes.
> 
> As long as it's a canister closed loop, makes no different.
> 
> If you use a canister as return filter, then it doses not work.
> Do not forget the anti siphon hole about 1/4" from the top(Cannot do easily with a lily pipe).
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Interesting, so it would be a matter of adding the sump from the return then using another pump to return the water?
wouldn't that mean that neither tank has a constant water level and therefore miss my goal?


----------



## unirdna

6 pages, without a drop of water.... Hope you are prepared for some expectations, Tom . Not like you haven't been there before.

I can just imagine your excitement out in the field - the moment when your tape measure revealed that the wood would be the perfect dimensions for the big tank. Hell, that wood is so darn nice, it would almost make sense to build the _tank_ around the wood.

Gotta see this one planted!


----------



## A Hill

unirdna said:


> I can just imagine your excitement out in the field - the moment when your tape measure revealed that the wood would be the perfect dimensions for the big tank. Hell, that wood is so darn nice, it would almost make sense to build the _tank_ around the wood.


I have a feeling he was jumping up and down with joy, then realized he had to bring it back home and the truck was a mile away :hihi: No wait, thats what I would do... Or like hike back out 10 miles with a backpack filled with rocks... (_I've never done that..._:icon_redf )

The tank will be great, if you're ever satisfied with the end result is a different issue but I have a feeling you will be. I also really like the wood in the 'smaller' tank looks really neat and will look great with all the mosses and ferns and stuff!

Water, that'll come eventually its not THAT important though is it? 
-Andrew
/subscribed/

PS, I'm kinda going back and forth with my rescape of my 55g, but I'm thinking a big chunk of needle java fern and more or a mound type scape booring I know, but 55g is such a deep tank:icon_lol: You see any you'll need to trim and sell in the next few months let me know? Thanks. Then again, you might need a bunch as well.


----------



## ranjitthepai

All i can say is awesome , sometimes its just too slow , you just want to see the tank after its fully done right nw , but i guess we will see it unfolding ... Great show , that wood looks awesome 

Inspires me to redo my tank .. too much work i guess . all the best buddy


----------



## plantbrain

garuf said:


> Interesting, so it would be a matter of adding the sump from the return then using another pump to return the water?
> wouldn't that mean that neither tank has a constant water level and therefore miss my goal?


Yes, you got it.
But then again, no over flow box, not tubes, no nuthing.
Your goals are different than other folk's.

So you need to decide what is important to you and go with that.
It's fine for other folks to say what is important to them and why they did what they did. You can think about that and see if that is also what you think or perhaps you want a different direction.

It's about trade offs.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

unirdna said:


> 6 pages, without a drop of water.... Hope you are prepared for some expectations, Tom . Not like you haven't been there before.
> 
> I can just imagine your excitement out in the field - the moment when your tape measure revealed that the wood would be the perfect dimensions for the big tank. Hell, that wood is so darn nice, it would almost make sense to build the _tank_ around the wood.
> 
> Gotta see this one planted!


Good things come to those with patience.
Actually I'm getting killed in some research right now at school. 
So I'm not doing much on this for a bit, pick at it here and there.
I'm also still waiting for Coralife to send the 72" hood for it.
I'm a little ticked about that, been almost a month now.

The 60 cubes will be done before this and a 38 gallon cube.

I'm not setting up one mere tank, I'm setting up 5 and still dealing with 2 other clients and 4 tanks there, the algae season is coming up for lakes/ponds, and I have a on of work at school.

This stuff can wait:flick: 

I have other neat pieces of wood also, they never made the cut.
So I put them as "art" in my home.

The 180 will be a dry start tank anyway. So about a month after I get the darn hood, I can fill it.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## FelixAvery

lovely put discus in it?


----------



## neilfishguy

Where will you get all these fish? it seems to me that boxlotfish might be best for that many but I am not sure...


----------



## plantbrain

I get my fish where else?
The wholesaler:thumbsup: 

But I have a license.
I get what and how many I need cheap.
But I need time to condition them and fatten them up.

I do not like discus BTW. I kept them out of curiosity for a few years.
But they never really appealed to me, boring and big, like some larger SA cichlids. Some have interesting behaviors, colors etc, but trash planted tanks.

Dwarf's and smaller fish make the tank look much larger and you can have a better community structure. I'd rather have 400 small fish very 12 big fish.

Looks better in the tank.
Fine needle plants also make it look larger than it really is.

So if you do add a larger leaf plant in there, it looks huge, thus has more contrast.

Same is true with fish, however, adding large discus is a bit too far.

I'd rather have cool plecos and Apistos.

Well, good news, the hood is on it's way finally.
Time to set up the HC dry start and go from there.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## mecgeorgeneo

wow great setup tom! im planning a reef tank setup similar to yours and was curious about the tank, specifically the second picture (bare bottom) of the first post. How is the tank built? Do the side panels sit on top of the bottom panel? Or do the side panels sit next to the bottom panel? Also, on the bottom panel, is there a thin piece of glass on top of the bottom panel that lines the edges of the tank for reinforcement? Thanks!


----------



## asnatlas

mecgeorgeneo said:


> wow great setup tom! im planning a reef tank setup similar to yours and was curious about the tank, specifically the second picture (bare bottom) of the first post. How is the tank built? Do the side panels sit on top of the bottom panel? Or do the side panels sit next to the bottom panel? Also, on the bottom panel, is there a thin piece of glass on top of the bottom panel that lines the edges of the tank for reinforcement? Thanks!


The sides site around the bottom and those pieces you see are for reinforcement, It looks like those tanks and stands came from http://glasscages.com/


----------



## plantbrain

Since you are in SoCal, go with Lemar, they have better work I think. You can get custom rimless tanks from them and they have good quality. I know Juan at Rainbow Pet shop north of Van Nuys can get them for you.
Call and ask for a quote etc. Lemar only goes through dealers.

I was not as pleased with the edge work GC did, it's not bad etc, but it could be done very well and it just wasn't. You get what you pay for. They will last and look good, but it was not what I really wanted personally.

I have a local tank builder in in Sac I now work with as a result.
It's like the ADA level but cost less and I can get options and it does not take forever.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Pat7676

When are you putting some plants in this tank??? Can't wait to see it.


----------



## plantbrain

Hood finally arrives on Monday.

So the next few days. But it'll be a dry start......so it will not get filled for 3-5 weeks or so.

I spent a few hours getting the 60 Cube for the West Africans ready.
Likely will have that set up this weekend if I can find the sand I want.
I modified and drilled the wood to get the design and put plenty of holes for attaching Anubias and ferns.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## intermediate_noob

Tom, I love your tank. Your wood placement is great and I cannot wait to see it planted!

I cannot find where you describe how to get away from a power failure flooding the sump with the intake and return only a few inches off the substrate. Am I missing something? I would love to hide mine like this but do not know how to compensate in the case of a power outage. Thanks again for sharing with us.


----------



## deleted_user_16

me neither


----------



## jinx©

If I've followed correctly there's no sump. He's using 2 OceanClear cannisters.

Beautiful start by the way Tom. 

I may just have to trek to Eel river...lol


----------



## intermediate_noob

I guess I had my stupid moment for the day. I saw the two Ocean Clears and did not even snap. When I saw that he was using the Iwaki pump I assumed. Thanks Jinx.


----------



## plantbrain

Finally got lights, very bright.

At the full HQI+ PC, we have 650 micromoles at the surface and about 150 at the gravel farthest away. With PC's alone: 180 to 40 micromoles(2w/gal for a 180 gal using 4x96w of 6700K).

This is ideal.
The max is about the same maxima as plants can use.
The lower range is still above the min levels.

This is at the prescribed height of 25cm from water's surface.
I can adjust that however, easily.





































So time to do the dry start HC........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## macclellan

Looks sharp!

One question: Why bother with the poles? Without a background, from the front view, they look pretty unsightly, and with 360 viewing, kinda fugly from the back... Why not just hang light from ceiling? Forgive me if I missed something obvious.


----------



## plantbrain

macclellan said:


> Looks sharp!
> 
> One question: Why bother with the poles? Without a background, from the front view, they look pretty unsightly, and with 360 viewing, kinda fugly from the back... Why not just hang light from ceiling? Forgive me if I missed something obvious.


A landlord:thumbsup: 
and the hood weighs 55 lbs but the old house has weird old spackle , not dry wall etc. It's like drilling into rubber.

I'd originally wanted the tank against a wall, but I did not like the "feel".


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## unirdna

plantbrain said:


> ...and the hood weighs 55 lbs


Weird drywall or not, I wouldn't trust any drywall to hold up 55 lbs using just two attachments.

Thanks for keeping up the play-by-play, Tom. For my own reasons, I kind of hope something _doesn't_ work well......so, I can see how you deal with it.


----------



## plantbrain

Ahh, yes, mistakes and dealing with them..........
Oh, I have made many modifications.
Mistakes are things you learn along the way and fix as you go.

However, I do some systems much more complex than these........
So the chances are quite low. Been at it and modifying things at much larger scales for many years.

It's mainly the trade offs I'm willing to deal with and do to get the results.
More aesthetics than mechanical mistakes, etc.

I take my time, but I prefer to if I have that option.
As I progress through these tanks, I've changed the concepts around and the filters etc.

The light, the colors etc.

You need a clear goal and then you can focus.
It's easy and fast when it's someone else's goal.

When it's your own?
I prefer to let it stew.
Patience is a virtue.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

unirdna said:


> Weird drywall or not, I wouldn't trust any drywall to hold up 55 lbs using just two attachments.


Me either.
I could have used several holders, say 4 instead of 2, that would spread it out more.

But...........it's simply easier to do this with the bars than the other ceiling method.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## garuf

Tom, you mention goals a lot and I never really caught on as to why until this tank, I'm enlightened. 
When you say your filters "backwash" what does that actually mean? is it like a self cleaning mechanism or something? 
Sorry for the stupid questions, still learning.


----------



## bgoodwins

Depending on the filter, it usually means that flow is reversed through an outlet of some kind allowing you to have all the crud in the filter wash out without having to fully dissemble it. Kinda neat.


----------



## bgoodwins

Tom, 
Something I've noticed throughout my tanks is that dead spots (on the far end of the filter output) tend to accumulate BBA more rapidly than other areas. I'm assuming this is due to low CO2 in the area. Have you noticed this as well? I notice you only have one filter inlet, are there multiple outlets on the other end?


----------



## A Hill

The light looks good!

I may have missed something obvious, but what is going to be your method for covering the tank to keep the moisture in? Plastic wrap? A glass top? Nothing?

Besides that I've got nothing to ask, its going to be amazing.

-Andrew


----------



## plantbrain

garuf said:


> Tom, you mention goals a lot and I never really caught on as to why until this tank, I'm enlightened.
> When you say your filters "backwash" what does that actually mean? is it like a self cleaning mechanism or something?
> Sorry for the stupid questions, still learning.


Water flow goes in reverse as I drain the waste water thus cleans the mechanical section and cleans it every week I do a water change.

Inflow to filter >>Backwash drain valve>>> Filter>>>> return to tank

When you do a water change: 
Return from tank >> Filter >>> Turn the Backwash valve open>>> garden hose, out side to the water the plants.

To fill, use the same hose and you can flush the other side or keep floushing the filter etc.'

There are many plumbing options, those are choices and goals you decide for yourself.

Some see barriers, excuses, carry on and on about how they cannot do a water change and why it's so horrible, I see options.:thumbsup: 

Regards, 
tom barr


----------



## plantbrain

bgoodwins said:


> Tom,
> Something I've noticed throughout my tanks is that dead spots (on the far end of the filter output) tend to accumulate BBA more rapidly than other areas. I'm assuming this is due to low CO2 in the area. Have you noticed this as well? I notice you only have one filter inlet, are there multiple outlets on the other end?


Yes, there are 2, they run down either side of the tank's length.
I can branch them into infinite numbers by adding Tees to the Lok line.

This gives me all the placement and directional movement I want. There's a power head wavemaker I use also which runs every 10 minutes for 1 minute or so, runs about 3000GPH. You cannot see it though.

Here's what it is though(I also use these in marine systems):

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_Aquar..._icecap_ecotech_marine_vortech_propeller.html

they ain't cheap

these are great for smaller set ups:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_Aquar...ers_filters_hydor_bioflo_bio_flo_aerobic.html

Algae will always build up in lower flow areas(Go to a pond, a river lake etc)


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

A Hill said:


> The light looks good!
> 
> I may have missed something obvious, but what is going to be your method for covering the tank to keep the moisture in? Plastic wrap? A glass top? Nothing?
> 
> Besides that I've got nothing to ask, its going to be amazing.
> 
> -Andrew


Glass lids, they are custom made to fit the wood.
Plastic wrap would, not be my style

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## NeverEndingNinja

Thats a hell of a powerhead:eek5:


----------



## Badcopnofishtank

That is a sweet light. Is there a reason you elected for HQI and not a PC or T-5 only?


----------



## plantbrain

NeverEndingNinja said:


> Thats a hell of a powerhead:eek5:


Yes, you cannot see it since there's no cord inside the tank at all.
It has a wave maker module which you can set up many different randomizations. So like the torrents or a Reef crest or the slow eb of a lagoon.

Aquatic plants do best where you have good flow, these types of powerheads are gentle start and ramp up, so you get the right type of currents.

If you keep the plants well trimmed, then you also increase the mixing, large thickets of weeds, can reduce flow by about 70-90%.

Think about this in terms of how you prune and what affect that might have.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Badcopnofishtank said:


> That is a sweet light. Is there a reason you elected for HQI and not a PC or T-5 only?


I have HQI and PC.

T5's+ HQI where over priced and really did not fit the bill. 

I have the option to drive the tank at high light and at low light, see the micromole ranges I measured.

I would like a light system I could simply use a dial to change the intensity.
But the hanging hood allows some of that.

But there's a trade off as well.

Light spray as the hood goes higher.

And HQI light spray is much worse than PC.
Reduced electrical cost also vs using HQI exclusively and better spread vs the T5 and the T5/HQI.

I was going to move the light 12" back and forth every day on a motor.
But for this system, it's too much trouble. For that, I do need to ceiling mount it and set up the rail system inside the ceiling.

So the trade off for that goal is this hood is 15" wide, well made, spread over 24" and has the ideal micromoles of light where I want it.

Access is easy all the way around the tanks.

Regards, 
Tom barr


----------



## Martin

Tom a few remarks.

1. the tank is nicely built, but from the pics it looks like a lot of silicone has been used. Too much by the look of it.

2. your placement of wood seems a bit too centered.
What I mean is you divide the tank in almost 2 equal sizes and there's absolutely nothing coming out towards the front of the tank. a quick thought would be to turn the wood, so the right hand side pieces reach for the front.

just a thought.


----------



## Khandurian

Well, since no one else asked (or I missed it), which filters did you go with? I see their ocean clear. Which 2 models did you go with?


----------



## plantbrain

Martin said:


> Tom a few remarks.
> 
> 1. the tank is nicely built, but from the pics it looks like a lot of silicone has been used. Too much by the look of it.
> 
> 2. your placement of wood seems a bit too centered.
> What I mean is you divide the tank in almost 2 equal sizes and there's absolutely nothing coming out towards the front of the tank. a quick thought would be to turn the wood, so the right hand side pieces reach for the front.
> 
> just a thought.


Might be perspective, in person you'd disagree.
Anyway, that is where the plants go, the wood is a transition zone.
Like most hardscape materials.

Yes, there's silicone, but it looks pretty nice, an ADA tank would have been a better made tank, but would have cost 3000$, for the tank alone...........
if you'd be willing to pay 1500$ for that, be my guest.
The trade off was not worth it for me.

I can trim some of the silicone off prior to filling.
I'm pretty good at that.
The issue is if it's noticable when the tank is full and planted.

This is hardly the final product.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## dekstr

Khandurian said:


> Well, since no one else asked (or I missed it), which filters did you go with? I see their ocean clear. Which 2 models did you go with?


He mentioned it in post #1:

"Parallel schematic for the Ocean Clear canister filters, the line is split into two 3/4" pipes that each go to separate OC filter."

Oh sorry you meant which model. I don't know.


----------



## plantbrain

Khandurian said:


> Well, since no one else asked (or I missed it), which filters did you go with? I see their ocean clear. Which 2 models did you go with?


I have a 25 micron+ UV and Bio+ Chem.

These are arranged in parallel and have garden hose drains for flushing.
Each outflow goes to a heater or the CO2.
the come back together and return at the other end of the tank.

Unlike Ehiem, Rena etc, you simply screw the lids off and can easily remove the media/cartiages etc, you do have to lift the entire mess out.
In tigther quarters, this is easier. They also take up less space and I have a pressure gauge to determine clogging pressure.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## territhemayor

Really REALLY excellent woodscape. I wish I could do something like that.
Also great idea about the stuff coming in from below the tank, but will water leak? That would be my concern. 
And fill the damn thing already!


----------



## plantbrain

No, I have dual gaskets and Schedule 80 Bulkheads, good threaded and tefloned PVC or Hot Blue glued with flex PVC pipe(handles tension better and less likely to reduce flow and leak).

That and ball valves and True unions makes the plumbing lines modular.

If I ever decide in the future, I can add a built in overflow any old time.
Leaks can occur with any system.

A large leak is rather obvious, the smaller ones are also no big deal.
You catch them and fix them. This can occur on most any filter, your plumber skills etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Martin

plantbrain said:


> Might be perspective, in person you'd disagree.
> Anyway, that is where the plants go, the wood is a transition zone.
> Like most hardscape materials.
> 
> Yes, there's silicone, but it looks pretty nice, an ADA tank would have been a better made tank, but would have cost 3000$, for the tank alone...........
> if you'd be willing to pay 1500$ for that, be my guest.
> The trade off was not worth it for me.
> 
> I can trim some of the silicone off prior to filling.
> I'm pretty good at that.
> The issue is if it's noticable when the tank is full and planted.
> 
> This is hardly the final product.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Tom, it might be perspective, no matter, taste is different, and from looking at the picture I would've turned the wood  to me the tank looks too divided.
I have a local tankbuilder who builds like a dream. Silicone is almost unnoticable on tanks he builds. That is to say, he uses the absolute minimum, and the result is fabulous. And he does it because he loves helping people achieving a superb result. Good mad he is!
My first look told me that a line of silicone was applied on the inside of the glass, where the frontpane and the sidepane meet, a line which holds no point. Perhaps it is not so, but any excess silicone should be gone gone gone! no point in having silicone distracting your view of a hopefully nice tank.

oh and not to pick on small things, but I think you're talking about C. cordata var rosanervig and not blasii. 

here: 



> Since that area is well shaded and hidden back there, I will add the Crypt blassii var Rosanervig back there


anyway, I look forward to seeing the tank in action. I'd suggest a nice bush of Rotala sp. vietnam planted around, and as much inside as possible, the left side of the wood.


----------



## narhay

I would put the poles so they are at the back two corners, and angle them inwards so they are able to hold the light. That way no back view is blocked.


----------



## plantbrain

Martin said:


> Tom, it might be perspective, no matter, taste is different, and from looking at the picture I would've turned the wood  to me the tank looks too divided.


There's not much space to do any turning, the shape of the wood is bowl shaped, any direction one way or the other and it touches the glass. That's no good. It's very much in the golden triangle ratio, same if not very similar to the winner of the ADA contest layout from 2007.

So as far as general opinion, it's quite fine where's it's at for me(the most important opinion, the tank's owner). You are welcomed to yours as well, but it's not well supported.



> I have a local tankbuilder who builds like a dream. Silicone is almost unnoticable on tanks he builds. That is to say, he used the absolute minimum, and the result is fabulous. And he does it because he loves helping people achieving a superb result. Good mad he is!
> My first look told me that a line of silicone was applied on the inside of the glass, where the frontpane and the sidepane meet, a line which holds no point. Perhaps it is not so, but any excess silicone should be gone gone gone! no point in having silicone distracting your view of a hopefully nice tank.


Yes, I do agree, the silicone work can be done very well, but such tanks are rare here and the ones made that way cost 2-3x as much for the same thing.

If he'd like to come and tank this one and redo one for me for the same cost, I'm all ears

Ironically, I've found someone able to do the level of work that you mention as well, and for less than the ADA tanks.
But that was after I'd already had this set up.... 
Oh well........



> oh and not to pick on small things, but I think you're talking about C. cordata var rosanervig and not blasii.


I think C. cordata var blassii rosanervig may be more appropriate, I did not intend to suggest it was a "species". 



> anyway, I look forward to seeing the tank in action. I'd suggest a nice bush of Rotala sp. vietnam planted around, and as much inside as possible, the left side of the wood.


I have most of the plants chosen.
Maybe later.

Regards, 

Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

narhay said:


> I would put the poles so they are at the back two corners, and angle them inwards so they are able to hold the light. That way no back view is blocked.


At the corners, it is a bit more of an eyesore in the layout in the home.
I talked to a few folks about it what they thought was best when they came over to have a look. I would have to make new bars to do that design, but it's a good one actually.

I might, but it is still mostly a front and side viewed tank.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Hi Martin,

I took a good look at the wood and gave your thoughts due consideration.
However, there's simply no room to move or position the wood.

If the tank was 30" and not 24 wide, and or 30" T, then we'd have some room the play with.

In person you can see this three dimensionally.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## garuf

I used to like the equal dimensions of the tank but now you say about having more room to play with I see what you mean, 30 would have been much more beneficial, but this then would mean you'd need to totally revise all other equipment? 
Many replies back I asked about surface scum, mine has returned after I trimmed out a load of plants what is it that's causing it? someone said it was plants leaking lipids but I don't think that's right. 
I've upped Co2 but it seems to be having no effect.


----------



## A Hill

plantbrain said:


> Glass lids, they are custom made to fit the wood.
> Plastic wrap would, not be my style
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr



Thats what I figured, you're just too stylish for the plastic wrap!

So when are the emmersed plants getting thrown in?

-Andrew


----------



## plantbrain

garuf said:


> I used to like the equal dimensions of the tank but now you say about having more room to play with I see what you mean, 30 would have been much more beneficial, but this then would mean you'd need to totally revise all other equipment?
> Many replies back I asked about surface scum, mine has returned after I trimmed out a load of plants what is it that's causing it? someone said it was plants leaking lipids but I don't think that's right.
> I've upped Co2 but it seems to be having no effect.


Bacteria, decomposing material, old filter media, not just the plants.
Anything that might leach hydrophobic proteins, fats etc.

Few folks fit the wood to the tank
In order to play with that dimension, that's what would be required.
That's a large tank then.

Perhaps some day I'll have a 30" front to back tank, I'd considered it, but the weight is murder.

It takes 4 very strong people just to move this one.
Heaven help you if you go up any stairs.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

A Hill said:


> Thats what I figured, you're just too stylish for the plastic wrap!
> 
> So when are the emmersed plants getting thrown in?
> 
> -Andrew


In about a week and 1/2. I have too many other things I need to concentrate on.

This is an optional hobby, work, school, family come first.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## garuf

Cheers Tom, I'll clean the filter and see if there are any dead leaves I might have missed.


----------



## plantbrain

garuf said:


> Cheers Tom, I'll clean the filter and see if there are any dead leaves I might have missed.


If you are ever unsure about anything, try a good cleaning, filter change, prune any spots that do not get as much current, change the media to activated carbon/purigen combo etc, do a 50-60% water change etc.

Then.........look at CO2, nutrients.

Since you did a large water change, it's safe to assume that the nutrients you add, will be in the most bioavailable form, CO2 should be good(hardest thing to measure).

Generally, simple elbow grease, general care, general consistent gardening methods resolves 95% of the issues many seem to like to blame for their issues with algae, scum, so called deficiencies and nutrient issues.

But most cannot see "the wood" through the forest, or something close like that:thumbsup: 

They think nutrients only.
When I suggest something like CO2, I assuem they know and are doing the other things, the question is not analyze my entire system to see what I am doing wrong.

We often over look things, ask dumb questions, get good answers to them, but then fail to resolve the issue.

Rather than assuming that there's 101 other possible things they over looked, they blame the person who helped them.

There's only so much you can do for someone over the web/internet.
I'm amazed at how many folks simply do not clean their filters frequently.
Or the variation in stocking levels, or plant density, or simply maintaining the same plant biomass relatively.

Which influences flow rates and CO2 mixing etc dramatically.
I've seen it many many times.

Do such things matter, are they significant?
Definitely, are they discussed much when folks have issues?
Rarely.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## garuf

That's a sensible approach, I'll clean my filter, forgive me for my ignorance what would be a good approach to maintenance and gardening? I'm very much a newbie and therefore I make mistakes. 
I clean out algae when I see it dose ei trim when plants touch the surface and clean my filter every other water change, though should probably make this every water change judging by the quantity of filth I remove. 
I've a feeling I have bad circulation because of my hardscape but I have no way of really judging if I do or not. 

I don't ever recall coming across an article which lists any form of must know information.


----------



## punky

Interesting thread :thumbsup: Keep us updated Tom


----------



## plantbrain

garuf said:


> That's a sensible approach, I'll clean my filter, forgive me for my ignorance what would be a good approach to maintenance and gardening? I'm very much a newbie and therefore I make mistakes.
> I clean out algae when I see it dose ei trim when plants touch the surface and clean my filter every other water change, though should probably make this every water change judging by the quantity of filth I remove.
> I've a feeling I have bad circulation because of my hardscape but I have no way of really judging if I do or not.
> 
> I don't ever recall coming across an article which lists any form of must know information.


Most of this hobby are sensible approaches. Not scientific mumbo.
For gardening, it means going in, pruning often, weeding often, cleaning and maintaining it consistently.

Does not matter if it "really needs it" or not, you keep on top of things, not just skirt by till you have to do something(the prevailing attitude among many in the hobby, and you will see me often argue and debate such folks).

I do large water changes to clean as much as as a method to dose.
It's simply easier, clean the plants basically, root out any dirt, fluff the plants good, clean the filter intakes, wipe glass, check any plant health issues, prune off anything I do not like, replant, uproot and replant where needed(some species do great with this but not topping and vice versus).

Cleaning thy filter often.
Keep old tanks mulm free(generally from driftwood decay).

Basic stuff.

But stuff folks can often over look.
Maybe their filter is clogged.

Maybe they added Carbon and it works for awhile and 2 months later it's not active and they missed a few water changes..........

Who knows.

So you start by changing the obvious stuff one by one and assuming they have a decent grasp on keeping planted tanks. 

If that advice does not work, then you look at the next of possible issues and so on.

We often assume we are doing the right thing with CO2, or with filters and gardening.

Many times we are not and then blame other things on the results.
It's still your fault for the results and making poor assumptions :thumbsup: 

Not excess PO4 or that you think you have enough stable CO2, even though you have BBA all over.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

punky said:


> Interesting thread :thumbsup: Keep us updated Tom


After March 20th or so I'll have some planted picks.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Martin

plantbrain said:


> Hi Martin,
> 
> I took a good look at the wood and gave your thoughts due consideration.
> However, there's simply no room to move or position the wood.
> 
> If the tank was 30" and not 24 wide, and or 30" T, then we'd have some room the play with.
> 
> In person you can see this three dimensionally.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Hi Tom.

if there's no room to turn due to wood dimensions.. well.. what can you do, but the best with what you have.
I am not saying the wood looks bad, just not as I would have it. Perhaps seeing what I would do, live, would make me like yours. impossible to say.
I just appreciate when wood is in several layers of the tank.

about the rosanervig, I never heard it mentioned as blasii, but C. cordata Griffith 'Rosanervig'

there's a Cryptocoryne cordata var "blassii" .

Anyway, thanks for considering my thought, eventhough no one else stepped up to agree.. I am sure your placement follows the ratio rules. I'd never question a man with a good calculator and a measuring tape


----------



## jazzlvr123

Martin said:


> Hi Tom.
> 
> if there's no room to turn due to wood dimensions.. well.. what can you do, but the best with what you have.
> I am not saying the wood looks bad, just not as I would have it. Perhaps seeing what I would do, live, would make me like yours. impossible to say.
> I just appreciate when wood is in several layers of the tank.
> 
> about the rosanervig, I never heard it mentioned as blasii, but C. cordata Griffith 'Rosanervig'
> 
> there's a Cryptocoryne cordata var "blassii" .
> 
> Anyway, thanks for considering my thought, eventhough no one else stepped up to agree.. I am sure your placement follows the ratio rules. I'd never question a man with a good calculator and a measuring tape



In the 70s Mr. Schneider from Zugzen (CH) discovered the plant C. cordata Griffith 'Rosanervig' which he named it until the late eighty's when Jan Re-identified the plant as blassii after several specimens were sent to him from different locations. I actually asked him about this plant at last years ECS meeting.


----------



## Martin

Really?

Who hides behind your name?

I was at ECS2007, but do not recall anything on this..


----------



## jazzlvr123

i talked to him privately about this plant. do you have a pic of yourself that you could show, most of the people at ECS i met for the first time but i bet id remember you if I saw you, I was the youngest guy there ; ) Pm sent...


----------



## Martin

there are photos here:

http://www.aquaristikszene.ch/Zuechter_Pflanzen/Kettner/kettner.html

here's Ghanz' photos:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/cryptocorynes/45378-ecs-2007-eye-opening-experience.html

i am here:

http://www.aquaticscape.com/offsite/ecs/DSC_0166.jpg

in the back, blue shirt.

more photos.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/cryptocorynes/45290-ecs-2007-few-pictures.html


----------



## cichlids4me

plantbrain said:


> After March 20th or so I'll have some planted picks.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


 
Can't wait to see those pics!!:thumbsup:


----------



## CL

wow, very impressive, and i like the bonsai trees in the window. is that a fig i spy? never had much luck with indoor bonsai good luck on the hc


----------



## BiscuitSlayer

Tom-

I often go without reading threads just to give me something to look forward to when I am in the mood for a good read. I read this most and almost spit my mouth full of Mountain Dew accross the room:



plantbrain said:


> Deep in a verdant forest of Redwoods, sunlight dances of the many shades of green, leaves of aquatic plant reflect the excitement that is life, the sublime experience leaves us in awe.
> 
> Come on, that's just not me. I can write silly ADA poems too.
> A poem or picture is fine, but it does not compare to being there, experience it, living it.


Funny stuff. That one made my night/morning.

I had a question about your wood. I have access to driftwood (mixture of different hardwoods), and I would like to use a large piece as you have used. I was concerned about cleaning it thourough enough to use in an aquarium. I have one piece in particular that is a massive stump that I would love to use in a larger aquarium, but I don't know how to effectively clean it.

I have read other posts where people boil and scrub driftwood/bogwood, but I wanted to get a first hand oppinion of someone who is familiar with large scale pieces of wild wood.

The tank/stand/light/wood look great together. The silicone seams don't bother me at all. I find it rather entertaining with how many people are so obsessed with it. Looking back at some of the other tank pictures you have shared, I tend to forget there are even joints held together with silicone.

I look anxiously look forward to seeing how you build this one up.


----------



## plantbrain

clwatkins10 said:


> wow, very impressive, and i like the bonsai trees in the window. is that a fig i spy? never had much luck with indoor bonsai good luck on the hc


Ficus are okay inside, most species must be kept outdoors.
I have a new Korean spruce and a mpale and few others, I use to have a large no#, but they where stolen and likely are all dead now.

Few are able to keep them over time and most fools that steal, kill them soon thereafter.

There's no luck about HC, it's a fast growing weed.

I'm setting up a 60 cube today(finally).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## redfalconf35

I've gotta tell you, this sort of project is what attracted me to the planted side of aquariums. Thanks for documenting your progress for our enjoyment and learning.


----------



## CL

plantbrain said:


> Ficus are okay inside, most species must be kept outdoors.
> I have a new Korean spruce and a mpale and few others, I use to have a large no#, but they where stolen and likely are all dead now.
> 
> Few are able to keep them over time and most fools that steal, kill them soon thereafter.
> 
> There's no luck about HC, it's a fast growing weed.
> 
> I'm setting up a 60 cube today(finally).
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


well be sure to post pics. of the 60 cube. cubes are my favorite and a 60 gallon would be awesome. oh and what kind of maple is it? my favorite are trident maples, especially when they are root over rock good luck on your cube!:thumbsup:
(sorry about the bonsai being stolen:angryfire (and for being off topic))


----------



## plantbrain

BiscuitSlayer said:


> Tom-
> 
> I often go without reading threads just to give me something to look forward to when I am in the mood for a good read. I read this most and almost spit my mouth full of Mountain Dew accross the room:


Wasting Mt Dew?
Seems my poetry got more emotion that ADA's
and the kind of emotion I seek, laughter........




> but I don't know how to effectively clean it.
> I have read other posts where people boil and scrub driftwood/bogwood, but I wanted to get a first hand oppinion of someone who is familiar with large scale pieces of wild wood.
> 
> The tank/stand/light/wood look great together. The silicone seams don't bother me at all. I find it rather entertaining with how many people are so obsessed with it. Looking back at some of the other tank pictures you have shared, I tend to forget there are even joints held together with silicone.
> 
> I look anxiously look forward to seeing how you build this one up.


A good soak seems to do best and getting old long dead wood.
Well, if you spend the $$$ on a nice tank, you want good work.
I'm less concerned about the seams, rather the glass edges themselves and how they match.

Looking back, I likely should have gone with an ADA.
would have taken the same time frame, cost a bit more, but less hassle and nice seam and edge work.

So they do have a point.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## scolley

plantbrain said:


> Looking back, I likely should have gone with an ADA.
> would have taken the same time frame, cost a bit more, but less hassle and nice seam and edge work.


Tom, unless you have access to info I don't, I could never find out if ADA tanks have tempered glass bottoms - or not. Given that unknown, which implies that you could not know if you could safely install bottom bulkheads, IMO you made exactly the right choice.:thumbsup: Better bottom bulkheads than perfect seams!


----------



## BiscuitSlayer

plantbrain said:


> A good soak seems to do best and getting old long dead wood.


Soak in regular water or add something to kill pathogens? My mother is going to give me some really cool rocks that my family collected over the years, so I might be using some of them too. Last time they were set up anywhere was in a garden by a pool that we had in TX when I was about 12. Way too big to boil.


----------



## Gatekeeper

How about some plant pics Tom?


----------



## jaidexl

I just soak wood in a bucket of regular water and let good old mother nature and snails work on it for a while. I don't know what pathogens I'd be worried about, personally, fish parasites are the main concern I have and those are attached to fish, not wood.


----------



## lauraleellbp

plantbrain said:


> After March 20th or so I'll have some planted picks.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish:


----------



## plantbrain

scolley said:


> Tom, unless you have access to info I don't, I could never find out if ADA tanks have tempered glass bottoms - or not. Given that unknown, which implies that you could not know if you could safely install bottom bulkheads, IMO you made exactly the right choice.:thumbsup: Better bottom bulkheads than perfect seams!


Sudder, oh yes..........
I would have had the holes pre done for me.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## helgymatt

Tom, I'm really waiting to see your plumbing on this thing. Have you got it all hooked up yet?


----------



## tslata214

:icon_eek: WOOOOOOOW。。。。。。U R the man:thumbsup:


----------



## plantbrain

I have the 60 Rift tank set up, and am working on the 180 tonight and this weekend. The 60 Cold water will be worked on as well.

Hopefully by the end of the month, I'll have the 180 filled. 
Note: the 180 is going to be a dry start tank as will the 38. So it'll be 3-4 weeks before I fill them.

The 120, the cold water macro, and Rift will not.

I'll have to modify the lights to accept the straight pin GE 9235K's for a couple of the tanks.

Corkscrew vals are growing nicely in the rift tank. Wood is still buoyant so I have a small rock holding it, but after another week or so, it'll be water logged.

Checking to make sure all seals are tight and prepping all the plumbing and parts takes time, but I pick at it 2-3x a week.

I got all the stands hand rubbed with Danish oil yesterday. Looks nice now.
Matches the Oak floor

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Martin

Hm.. I'm Danish and have NO idea what Danish oil is...

care to elaborate?


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

I think its a brand of oil.


----------



## jaidexl

Danish oil> http://www.eurofixings.co.uk/rustins-danish-250ml-p-11633.html


----------



## LondonDragon

Martin said:


> Hm.. I'm Danish and have NO idea what Danish oil is...
> 
> care to elaborate?


'Danish oil' or Polymerized Linseed oil is, in its unadulterated/pure state, a non-toxic, wood finishing oil, similar to Tung oil.


----------



## Martin

damn. I can't believe it..
I've NEVER seen this in Denmark.
go figure.


----------



## kzr750r1

Is it just as stinky as Tung Oil? Finished a couple of bass with Tung and it took some getting used to.

Let's see that color match Tom.


----------



## Pyt

Martin said:


> damn. I can't believe it..
> I've NEVER seen this in Denmark.
> go figure.


Sounds like it's just coldpressed Linseed Oil. (Danish = Koldpresset Lindolie)

Kind of a national heritage in Denmark 

About the tempered bottoms or not in ADA aquariums - I never understood why anyone would want to temper their tanks. A single hit with a sharp object and your glass is in 1000 pieces... Makes no sense to me to risk that.

Anyway, nice tank Tom. I've been wanting a tank with Starfire/OptiWhite/Diamant Clear glass(choose you own name for low-iron content glas) for while now.

All you people in here are nothing but a constant source of inspiration. Keep up the good work everyone.

/Jens


----------



## jaidexl

Tom, if you don't mind helping me finish up the plans for my rimless build...

About how much space from the back glass should be aloud for bulkhead fittings when drilling the bottom glass? Also, is there a particular bulkhead size you prefer? Those are the only measurements I need before sending plans to the glass man.

Thanks in advance -J


----------



## crabcake

Tom,

I have a quick question. You mentioned that the tank was built with Starfire glass. Are all four vertical panels Starfire, or just the front?


----------



## plantbrain

3 sides are SF glass.

I finally planted the HC, dry start method.
So it'll be 2-4 weeks before I fill it.

I did all the lighting and ballast set up, timers, got all the pluming mapped out, just another 4-5 more hours and it's filled and set up.

I'm opting for the Vor-tec wave maker. I had a left over unit that would not fit in a reef I did, I'm using some modified Maxi jets for that, so this will have a nice home here in this tank.

The more tanks I set up, the more systems I observe, the more I see current and CO2/O2 as main drivers for fish and plant health.

I have the 60 Cube for the AF rift fish set up and running.
Still have the tweak a few things.

The 38 cube is done, but needs filled up.
AS is soaking and ready for the Utricularia.

Just the 120 and a 60 Reef to do.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## epicfish

Hey Tom,

Let's go hunting for more wood. Haha. I'll be in need of some once I move back to Sacramento and setup a large tank.


----------



## lauraleellbp

Any pics, please?


----------



## plantbrain

I'll get a few pics up sometime this coming weekend.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishscale

How do you get it to stay down when you fill the tank? I did the dry start method, which worked phenomenally, until I filled the tank, and the pearling action pulled the HC up bit by bit every day.


----------



## mpodolan

Mine stayed down fine using Aquasoil II. 

Can't wait to see the pics of this one, Tom


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Wow a 180! with an HC carpet. this will be very cool to see. keep em coming T.


----------



## plantbrain

The tank would look pretty nice with HC alone.

I'm trying the clump method since the HC was already pre grown in ADA AS and all I needed to do is lay each clump into a depression, then pad a bit.

Took about 10 minutes or so to plant about 3 sq ft.
Simple common sense tricks.

I'm itching to finish the tank at this point.
I have some real nice healthy fish sitting in the tiny grow out tank.
The Red ark or coral Red Pencil fish are really doing well, same with the fat cardinals, P leopardus plecos, King Emperor tetras and the clown Killis.

These fish, some Gold Nuggets, some Sturisoma's, 2 species of Apistos, some N espei pencils and I'm pretty well set 

I'm not sure about the clown killis, they are doing so well, large, eating great, but they jump out like no other fish(most killis) and are just too small for some tanks I have planned. I'll have Congo Tetras in the 120 gal now, so they will not mix well with them.

The Kings will likely end up in the 38 Gallon.

As far as HC uprooting, never really had much issue with that.
If it's growing well, there's no issue near as I can tell.

I had to yank it out pretty good when I transplanted.
Also, adding a little bit of already mature aqua soil to the new tank seeds the sediment rapidly.

So if you can, pre grow the HC in AS, then add to the new tank, using a small depression to plant, pad and you are done.

This is really not much different than terrestrial horticulture methods, you just use an aquatic sediment and flood later is all, but all the prep etc, lends itself well to terrestrial gardening.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## chasely

I can't wait to see this thing!!! I'll be anxiously awaiting the next set of pictures.

Chase


----------



## macclellan

plantbrain said:


> I'm not sure about the clown killis, they are doing so well, large, eating great, but they jump out like no other fish(most killis)


Yeah, that tank would be a death sentence for the clowns I think. 
The rest of stocking list looks tops though!

~ Joel


----------



## stargate_geek

This is a wicked thread! Subscribed!


----------



## CmLaracy

yeah it'd be awesome if we could see some picks of your killer tank this year  LOL

but on the serious note, this tank is definitely gonna look STELLAR


----------



## plantbrain

So stop yer naggin, at least there's some water and some plants in it.:icon_cool 
I've been looking for some nice wide leaf red plants to contrast and think I found a nicer type of A reineckii.

It will be at least 3 weeks or more to run the tank with water up to the top.
Need for the HC to grow in well and then I can flood.

I've had some water in it for the last 1-2 weeks, this was filter sponge and tank water. Seeding the new tank basically.

The sediment will be well cycled.
I'll add some "sponge squeezed juice" (Mulm) to the OC filters when I fire the sucker up.

Timers, electric are all done, just need to add tubing to connect the ball valves to the filter ends, snap the hosing together good etc.
I am using 1/8" lexan hood tops in 24x24 sizes, these can be cut to accommodate the wood poking out at one end and allow much better light transmission.

And each 2x2 ft piece fits the other sized tanks.

For 2 of the tanks, I do not use hoods at all.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## chasely

Looking good Tom.

If someone wouldn't mind answering this for me...what is HC?

I've tried to do searches but HC is too short to do.

Chase


----------



## lauraleellbp

_Hemianthus callitrichoides_ ; check it out in the Plant Profiles :thumbsup:


----------



## Gatekeeper

Tom, is that wood presoaked or are they destined to become mooring buoys for a while?

Glad to finally see plant pics on the 13th page of this thread. Was starting to think this thread was in the wrong section.


----------



## plantbrain

gmccreedy said:


> Tom, is that wood presoaked or are they destined to become mooring buoys for a while?
> 
> Glad to finally see plant pics on the 13th page of this thread. Was starting to think this thread was in the wrong section.


The wood was pulled from a creek near the coast.
Plenty soaked.

The wood has been glued with silicone to the tank bottom, it ain't going anywhere. 

It turns almost jet black when water hits it.
Most of the plant choices are rather bright, the wood is very dark, so this makes for a nice contrast.

Fish choices vary.
The Red Ark pencils will look very nice, but the cardinals will look best against the darker areas. But looking at some open bright tanks, cardinals still look pretty nice, I just think they look best against a darker color. But I cannot have everything I desire in one larger tank.

The thread is really one that details out how, why, changes, the entire process, not just a tank and planting and seeing if it does well.

Since I made a lot of the things myself, and I am a full time PhD student, and I work as well, Bike, run, travel etc, it's not like I have that much time to devote.

So it can take me awhile, but clients need things done right and done yesterday, this comes second.

But, I also learn a lot everytime and like to reflect, implementing what I've learned.

Seeing if the large scale of the dry start method is effective for example.
Seeing if the parallel plumbing schematic works nicely, noise reduction, light hanging fixtures, no cords or hoses visible from the outside, yet another example of a tank where you clearly do not need power sand:icon_idea , a tank that is easy to garden(perfect height for me pruning and a sitting viewer). 

I'm in no rush.

All the ideas and smaller scale test need to be implemented and verified.
Cannot talk the talk without walking the walk.

So no pics until the HC grows in good(2-3 weeks or so).
It's in the 70-90's here, so the temps are good for growing HC.
I just have the PC's on for 10 hours now.

So essentially, the tank is set up and I'm not doing any water changes to cycle it, to remove excess NH4, to worry over replanting HC, making a mess, no labor. All the good fruits of doing the Dry Start method.

The bacteria will be well established, HC will be healthy, thick and well rooted(and as far as cost, the amount hat grows in will be worth about 200-300$ in savings).

Then I'll fill the tank, then add lots of fast growing stems and have it up and running. From there, add some fish and Amano's/Cherries. After the stems are growing well, the MH's will be fired up.

Folks that get all impatient pay the price.
Heck, we all have seen that more than we can count. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CobraGuppy

i cant wait.

in the current pic, in the back right side of the tank, theres that little output nozzle thing that can turn.

Is it just there or is that your output?

thanks!


----------



## plantbrain

There are actually two of them.
Yes, those are the returns from the filter.

There are no hoses and siphon tubes at the surface or sides, the tank is drilled and filtered through the bottom.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishscale

chasely said:


> Looking good Tom.
> 
> If someone wouldn't mind answering this for me...what is HC?
> 
> I've tried to do searches but HC is too short to do.
> 
> Chase


To do a search for things like HC and EI, you can go to google and type in

HC site:www.plantedtank.net

and it will search just within the site.



Tom, the Aquasoil would explain it. I assume it's not very light? I tried this with SMS, which makes craters when my shrimp poop.


----------



## plantbrain

Update: 
Made custom lids for the tank, cut out for the wood rising above the surface at one end.
HC has grown in about 1" or so so far.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

BTW, plant fest has been planned for this year!

http://www.barrreport.com/plantfest/4229-plant-fest-2008-a.html?posted=1#post24791


----------



## jaidexl

plantbrain said:


> Made custom lids for the tank, cut out for the wood rising above the surface at one end.


I'd like to see how that turned out. I'm in a dilemma now where I'll most likely have to sacrifice chosen stock for emergent limbs. I don't think I can pull off a cover with multiple branches sticking out at different angles. :/


----------



## stargate_geek

plantbrain said:


> BTW, plant fest has been planned for this year!
> 
> http://www.barrreport.com/plantfest/4229-plant-fest-2008-a.html?posted=1#post24791


And of course I have to 'get into' fish after I move away from Florida! But just for clarification (I have friends there still) is it a collection trip?

Post pictures of the top you made


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Its going to be fun!


----------



## Badcopnofishtank

I noticed that the one return is angled up and towards the back glass. How many intakes / returns do you have? Do you have any photos of your plumbing (intake / returns) beneath the substrate? 

Sorry for all the questions; just finishing the plumbing on my 190 and this is a great example of how to do it right.


----------



## helgymatt

I think he has one intake and one outake. The outtakes is locline with a Y leading to two outtakes. He has two ocean clears that are run parallel.


----------



## A Hill

Looks good Tom!

That plantfest sounds like one fun time. Is it always in FL or do you go here and there around the USA? Next year I think I'll be going to FL for a week and want to do some different stuff and might have to pm you about the directions to which park to see the best plants. Did some kayaking in Longboat key last year in the mangroves and that was neat. 

When is the water coming ?

-Andrew


----------



## EdTheEdge

Any updates??? Inquirin' minds.....


----------



## CL

an update would be GREAT!


----------



## plantbrain

HC:










I think this batch of ADA As is not as nasty as the other I just wrestled with.
Looks pretty well mineralized. 2 of the 4 PC bulbs fried. So I had them replaced and got credit on them, so I'm waiting for them.

I have finished all the plumbing, CO2, flow routine etc.
Have most of the fish.
Still need that support under the house.
So when the lamps get here, in the water shall go.

Then I have the 120 Gal to work on

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## unirdna

Very clever! My linear brain wouldn't have thought to simply get the HC going emersed.


----------



## stargate_geek

Looking good. What is the other plant in the tank? (Right side in the picture.)


----------



## plantbrain

unirdna said:


> Very clever! My linear brain wouldn't have thought to simply get the HC going emersed.


Well, going back to the Dry start method, which is just a mix of several folk's ideas, wasabi+ terrarium+ ADA planting before filling the aquarium.........I have no clue why ADA has never suggested this method prior.

Everything was in place.......after all.

I grow HC and dozen other plant emergent, have grown many species of Crypts etc for decades now.....as terrarium plants. The only thing that this method brought together was flooding the tank later rather than sooner and allowing good root establishment, dense growth of harder to establish species, NO Water changes for 8 weeks(not a bad trade off), pre cycled tank before you fill the aquarium.

It is a rather obvious method once you think about it and makes you wonder "Dope! Why did I not do this years ago?"

The only negative trade off is patience for the plants to fill in. 
Anyone should be able to produce a nice rock and low foreground plant scape with this method however. Just add ADA As and design, then saturate the ADA AS and plant. Wait a few weeks, fill the tank and take a picture. No algae, pre cycled, cheap since you do not need much HC, hair grass etc etc.

Really a simple easy fool proof method to start up any new tank with HC, Gloss etc. The stem plants are really easy so this method does not really offer them that much advantage. However, most all species will grow this way if you wish. Some change a lot, like Lud. cuba or R wallichii, but they do grow quite well with this method. Some have suggested that the plants will all melt or do poorly because they are not adapted to submersed culture. This has not been true in smaller tanks and the plants already have large established root systems, so they can focus their resources on leaf production and have a steady firm grip in the sediment(HC often floats away). Good high initial CO2 also takes care of HC. 

I've done many little test tanks, but this is the first and largest Dry start method tank I've done or am aware of, I expect it to start without a hitch or any issues really. Given the labor savings, this method will surly be a common part of this hobby for years to come.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Gatekeeper

Don't forget Tom... ALGAE FREE!!!! I wonder if this would work just as well with Eco-Complete? Not to derail this thread...

Can we get a FTS? I love the hardscape in this tank and would love to get the perspective of the HC with it.


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, it does work with flourite, EC etc, however, you need to make a typical Hydroponic solution and change it every so often. Similar to what I did a decade ago with Crypts in Flourite and water emergent. This way you can control the nutrients easier and measure them.

ADA As works nicely as it's more like a real soil with mostly clay and some OM and nutrients. The texture and root penetration is better in softer clays like ADA As vs the harder cooked clays, thus the roots can get at the nutrients locked inside each grain.

The tank sweats so much since it's basically a terrarium, hard to get a shot as it quickly beads back up.

Also, I'm still waiting on the dang light bulbs for the rear.
The semester is also almost over, 2 weeks left so I'll be a happy camper, my last class, pure research and writing thereafter.

I'll try and get the HC front shot sometime this week.
I will likely fill the tank this weekend(I know I know....I keep saying that )
So I'll need a few shots then before and during.

I need to detail this out since it's the largest Dry start tank I'm aware of right now that will be flooded etc. Based on the other tanks with similar filtration and flow characters, this tank should do quite well right away.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## rekles75

The HC is coming along real nice. Cant wait to see this one come along. 

SUBSCRIBED


----------



## bubbless

coming along really nice:bounce: ...btw where did you order/buy your driftwood from?


----------



## garuf

He collected it in some hills or something. Tom states the location very early in.


----------



## rountreesj

Two very simple word combine perfectly for a description of this tank...
PURE GENIUS!


----------



## jazzlvr123

great job tom, thats probably quadrupled in growth since the last time I was at your place. mine grew slower emmersed but mainly because it was winter time. cant wait to see you flood the sucker!! hehe Cheers, Kyle


----------



## sanj

> however, you need to make a typical Hydroponic solution and change it every so often.


What does this mean, soak the substate in water, or is the solution water treated with NPK? So would you add the solution and then perhaps due to depletion (NPK being used up) you need to add to it, but first remow any excess water because you are not wanting to flood the tank? 

Sorry i was a bit confused.

I am considering an 8x2x2. Tom is your tank on concrete or wooden joists? This a worry i am having, but I could place it where it lie part of a bearing wall (used to be wall, but was knocked through to make 2 rooms, one room).

Thanks.

Oh another question, you picked your wood from outside. There is only certain types of wood that ca nbe used i nthe aqaurium isnt there? do you happen to know off hand?

Thank you.


----------



## neonmkr

OK, I've got my wood & I'm setting it up in the tank, rearranging it, trying to find a look I like, and then I read this thread. Now I've got to throw the whole thing out & start over. THANKS A LOT TOM! 
Looks fantastic, nice job!


----------



## bubbless

:icon_redf i missed that part unfortunately...i wish i dint have to live in a city full of buildings instead of trees!


----------



## plantbrain

Well, Hell Frozen over.










The amount of pearling is rather intense. HC looks more like Riccia gone wild.
The contrast fades out since it's so bright with the pearling.

This is not due to initial filling either.
the following day, the HC is going nuts after 30-45 minutes of light:










Also, the wood is leaching tannins. I will do a few daily water changes and start adding some of the other plants later tonight. I have about 3000 gph running through here, but only 900 gph is filtration. The mazzei venturi is working wonderfully in the one of the two parallel lines. Very easy to adjust the mist.

You can see the tannins in the water after 24 hours:









As you can see, the HC grew in even more this last week prior to filling.
and I only have 1/2 the Pc lights on right now.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Markone

Hi Tom,

I worked through the whole thread and you often mentioned two other tanks you did...would you be so kind to tell me where these two can be seen?

You´ve done great work and folks like me can learn a lot from you!

Regards, Mark (also on www.flowgrow.de)


----------



## stargate_geek

Wicked tank!

Do you have any other plants in there yet?


----------



## plantbrain

stargate_geek said:


> Wicked tank!
> 
> Do you have any other plants in there yet?


Tonight..........I have to work sometime
Speaking of which.........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Markone said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> I worked through the whole thread and you often mentioned two other tanks you did...would you be so kind to tell me where these two can be seen?
> 
> You´ve done great work and folks like me can learn a lot from you!
> 
> Regards, Mark (also on www.flowgrow.de)


I have not detailed out their evolution. The one tank was mangled due to bad ADA Aqua soil, it finally leveled out. The others are mostly just grow out tanks for both plants and fish at the moment and I'm not scaping them yet.

One tank at a time..........but this one is similar. They all have similar lighting, filter set ups, CO2, etc. 

38 gal
60 gal Cube 
60 gal Marine
120 gal West African
180 gal South American



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Markone

Hi Tom,

I meant just a pic, not another 17 pages of evolution .

Regards Mark.


----------



## Tony

This tank will be so awesome by time roud:


----------



## Gatekeeper

Markone said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> I meant just a pic, not another 17 pages of evolution .
> 
> Regards Mark.


Wow, two posts in and you are already bringing out guns huh. See how long that lasts.


Tom,

Looks awesome. Unreal growth since the last picture. Curious to see you other plant selections.


----------



## chonhzilla

beautiful.


----------



## eyebeatbadgers

Very impressive growth in the last week. I can't imagine what a couple more weeks of dry growth would have been like. Maybe you won't rush the next tank :thumbsup:

Have you noticed the intense pearling in other dry start setups like you have seen in this one? How long does the "extra" pearling last?

Neat stuff, kudos.


----------



## plantbrain

It's still pearling now.........

I think it's the CO2+ high light.
Anyone thinks that there's some negative transition period, you might want to think again concerning HC.

Still a bit soon to say, but if it's been pearling like this for 36 hours, it's now just fresh water from the WC.

I will have some downoi, R wallichi, Tonia likely belem, P yatabena, Crypt lucens and C blasii rosanervig, A reineckii, Limno. aquatica giant, curly sword, and perhaps L aromatica/Lud acurata.

Not sure really.
Generally some nice transition color(texture + color) in the rear and slope that follows the wood line. Some of the holes that are in the wood may also look nice to have various plant groups in as well.

The tank would look decent with nothing but HC + some Fissedens etc as well . I'm probably going to play around with various species till I can get a nice combo.

Grow it for awhile, then switch a few groups around, trade out a species here and there and see what looks best over time. No need to have just a set species list either. Fish are almost ready and fattened up, just need to fatten some cardinals yet.

I'll post a few pics of the others, they are not scaped yet.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ikuzo

i am looking forward to follow the transition here. as i know that my submerged HC leaves are smaller and the emersed leaves withered. please update weekly Tom.


----------



## CL

hey tom, my emersed hc also pearled like crazy for a few days after I filled it up. I think It has to do with some stored sugars or extra sugars the plant had produced while emersed, on second thought, that sounds wrong... In my experience, hc only has a hard time when going from submersed to emersed, but not the other way around, it does just fine.
That is an awesome looking carpet and good luck!


----------



## Buck

gmccreedy said:


> Wow, two posts in and you are already bringing out guns huh. See how long that lasts.


Cmon creedy...I see no guns there, sounds like just a side-stepped question to me.  

Lookin' good Tom...should be a beauty !


----------



## ikuzo

clwatkins10 said:


> hey tom, my emersed hc also pearled like crazy for a few days after I filled it up.


i experienced the same thing during the first week.
i don't know why.


----------



## plantbrain

Since folk's asked:

Here's the 60 cube and the 38 folks have been squawking about seeing, neither are scaped, they are just grow out for now. the 38 just got redone and had lots of WC's and has stabilized........after 5 weeks of pain.




























The 38gal I had 5 weeks with the NH4 and leeching. Daily water changes did not correct it, nor did prepping the filter, doing the DSM, zeolite, carbon, purigen, nothing........just massive frequent water changes.
No amount of bio could have stopped it either. Even with a fully mature XP4 Rena filter etc from another tank, did not even put a dent in it. 

The 60 will have a different set of plants, but the wood display will be the same, and the sand will be dolomite. Without anything added to the sand, it grows most any plant BTW.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## MedRed

your cube is beautiful... what kind of tank is it?


----------



## Ozymandias

and you say thay aren't scaped thay looks amazing and the cube looks just completely natural


----------



## Markone

Hi Tom,

thanks a lot for that beautiful pictures! Mainly "folks" means me ...I don´t know that products you use, for the lighting fixtures can´t be found here in Europe, but I think they are combined Metal Halide and these bent U-shaped lights?

I like your tanks and the knowledge they hide! And I don´t see guns here either .

The wood you use makes speechless, can´t be obtained in shops!

Regards,
Mark.


----------



## Markone

Hi Tom,

BTW in this tank

http://www.flowgrow.de/album_showpage.php?full=true&pic_id=5563&user_id=420

plants are only growing in Sand and Gravel, without anything like ADA Soil or so on. It only has some different kinds of algae but I can handle it.

Regards,
Mark.


----------



## plantbrain

Ozymandias said:


> and you say thay aren't scaped thay looks amazing and the cube looks just completely natural


No they are not scaped.
A long way from it.

The wood and some of the attached plants will still be there.
I do not even have the wood in the 38 Cube that was suppose to be there:icon_roll The high NH4 melted all the Utric grammifolia.

I watched the HC today and noted as soon as the MH's came on, the HC starts to pearl a lot more vs the PC's alone.

The venturi gas mist mixing is awesome. I can dial it to dissolve virtually all the CO2, or I can produce a nice fine mist, far far better than any disc diffuser could ever hope to do. Also, no maintenance.

I sat back this morning and considered adding various crypts around the wood base in the 180. This would look natural and also be easy to care for.
This would also high light the wood better.

However, I also like stem plants and nice colorful groupings.
I could keep them trimmed low and pick species that works better with the general concept.

Tonia belem in the rear
P yatabena/R pusilla
Perhaps Dwarf Lobelia
Maybe Myrio mato "red", tubeculum

These are grow fairly slow vertically.
I have another Hygro that does well. 

Downoi where I'd originally planted it
C blassii var rosanervig in the corner shaded

In the spot on the right, I'm not really sure.
A. reineckii(moderate grower, nice broad leaves)
Myrio mato red

It should be something that grows slow and is easy to trim.

I like R wallichii, but it's pretty weedy and needs uprooted to look good, topping is not the best pruning method for it.

I will have a nice dutch stem plant style 120 gal tank, so it's not like I will not have many of the stems I like either.

The Congo's will go in there I think.
Or I might leave them in the 60 Cube and remove the Tangy's.
I have a lot of work ahead.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## A Hill

Looks very nice lots and lots of HC there!

-Andrew


----------



## plantbrain

Markone said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> thanks a lot for that beautiful pictures! Mainly "folks" means me ...I don´t know that products you use, for the lighting fixtures can´t be found here in Europe, but I think they are combined Metal Halide and these bent U-shaped lights?
> 
> I like your tanks and the knowledge they hide! And I don´t see guns here either .
> 
> The wood you use makes speechless, can´t be obtained in shops!
> 
> Regards,
> Mark.


The equivalent are the Giesmann hoods infinity series, those might even be "better", since they can adjust the light intensity with a knob.
I can raise or lower the light I have, so it's not much of an issue for me.
I turn on the Pc lights for about 10 hours, the MH's for about 4 hours.

6700K coralife PC 96 w or 65 w and ADA 8000K 150 W HQI bulbs.
Most scaping materials are difficult to find.
You have to look around a lot for them.

Matching the hard scape with the plants is not always an easy process.
While I like certain plants, they will not do as well as I'd like for this display.

I also am not interested in trimming a great deal and am fairly good at trimming HC without leaving too much of an eye sore afterwards.

The fish list will not be changed however.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

MedRed said:


> your cube is beautiful... what kind of tank is it?


Which cube?
One was a small custom tank with beveled edges etc, nice tank, the guy went bankrupt though.
The other is a Glasscages 60gal 2x2x2ft cube.

I have another guy in LA that's making a nice beveled edged rimless 120 Gal for about 450$. 

That will be the stem plant tank more than any.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ikuzo

need an update here Tom.


----------



## plantbrain

I'll take a pic later today.
Add a few amano shrimp.
Fish loading next week.

I do not have all the stem plants I want yet, might take a few weeks to grow them out as I do not like paying 3-5$ per stem.......only to later have too much ...........

I have decided on some plants:

Crypts(blassii rosanervig, usteriana/aponogetifolia(maybe on these two) and lucens).
L pantanal- the color is really good in this tank, like my older tanks.
HC obviously
Some weird plant we have not yet ID'd. Some Hygro, no clue what is really is......
I think a large group of Tonia Belem will do well along the back
Bacopa, I may switch to B laginera
Myrio matogrossense
E diversifolia
Maybe P yatabena
Dowoni

I'm having a hard time with deciding which of the last few plants to keep or that go to another tank. 

My overall goal is to keep the stem plants fairly low and rounded, much like a log laying lengthwise in the rear. With some plants poking in/out of the wood here and there.

Growth is excellent and the tank is going to be fully balanced in a week or two and ready for fish. HC pearl madly, not quite as much as Riccia, but not too far off either.

And that's still several weeks after the initial phase.
So no decline in growth in the transition between dry start and flooded methods.

I added some reef style current powerheads to the tank at one end. This gives it a stream like look and lots of nice ripples in the sun/MH's.
Total, I have 5000 gph moving through this tank and with much lower electrical cost than over sizing the filter pump. the scape is more a lower lying design with plants that can handle and look good in high current.

The CO2 mist.......... I've never seen it look so good in a tank this size.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ikuzo

i like the vertical growth of crypt aponogetifolia so i agree with your choice. as for the 5000 GPH, that is a lot of flow in a 180 tank. i'm curious to know your plan on what fauna to keep in this tank that can handle that kind of flow. i'm anxious to see the tank pics Tom.


----------



## plantbrain

The plants have not adjusted yet, but are growing in fast.



















HC is obviously having no issues adjusting to the DSM that I've been suggesting lately.

It's certainly a dang good method for making huge or small HC rugs in no time and without hardly any work.

I think I will keep the Ludwigia pantanal, it's a bit ratty still, but in 2-3 weeks, the nice large fine needle stems will be doing very well.

I will add some more Tonia as it grows in and phase out some other stems.
I have a lot of the P yatabena and will add some P stellata narrow in the rear.
I'll likely remove the Bacopa c and switch to the brighter light green B lanigera. I just have some of the P yatabena in the center front for now. Downoi will not do as well as I'd hoped there. Bit too dark.
I might use that hygro off on the far right side and put it there and then grow the Downoi to cover the Filter sponge or so other similar plant.

The hygro can handle the lower light a bit better and looks good as contrast against HC. Some time, some growth out and few species changes and the tank will be on its way.

I'll start adding fish here pretty soon.
Cardinals, then the espsi pencil fish.
I'm going to keep the coral Ark pencils in the 38 gal, I think they'd make a better addition there. Not bad after 3 weeks though. If the Tonias and Pogostemon are growing well, HC, Downoi etc......I might add some Erios to replace the Downoi and let the Downoi take over the sponge intake area and make a line of the Erio's between the the stems ands the HC.

Those plants can handle the higher flow rates in the tank.

While 5000gph sounds like a lot, and it is, it's not 5000 gph of high pressure flow, the flow is much more gentle, more like the flow you'd seen and slow moving river or the eb on a coral reef head at 20-30 ft.

The maxi jets are converted to propeller (boat like) and use a mere 18 watts each and moves somewhat gently 2000 gph each. I'd wanted to use the Eco tec powerhead, but had trouble with the thick glass walls, so I'll try it on the 60 gal reef tank I've yet to set up:icon_roll 

A single maxi jet would do fine, but I like high flow and like to see the fish swim. they eat better, O2 levels are better, CO2 mixing is ...insane. and I like the ripples that the flow produces on the surface with the sunlight and MH's.

It has a feel that you are really swimming in a stream which was one of my main goals. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## deleted_user_16

holy bajeebers!!!!!!!! incredible !!!!!!!!!


----------



## Ozymandias

soo thick


----------



## plantbrain

fishman9809 said:


> holy bajeebers!!!!!!!! incredible !!!!!!!!!


Well, come by for the open house in August for SAPS and SFBAAPS and see it fully loaded with fish and the final(relatively) plant selection.

I should have it filled by then.
Tanks should be seen in person, not just a photo :icon_idea 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ColeMan

absolutely stunning, Tom.


----------



## @[email protected]

that HC is amazing. its so thick and the shade is amazing, almost as if it were glowing.


----------



## jazzlvr123

lol after 240 posts we finally get to see full planted the tank, simply amazing cant wait to see those background bunch plants fill out! god job


----------



## stargate_geek

That's just *jaw drop*


----------



## wearsbunnyslippers

once those stems fill in its going to be awesome!

nice work tom!


----------



## CL

looks good! That hc will get thick fast. My hc that I started out emersed is now about .75 inches thick, and I just filled my tank up with water 26 days ago.


----------



## MedRed

WoW! That definitely deserves respect. I'm now going to try this... lol


----------



## Markone

Hi,

Tom your tank looks awesome!!! Great start! I would love to see something like this with Utricularia graminifolia and I´ll try my first dry start. 

What must be done to act successfully? Can/May I use U.g. with Cyano Bacteria in it without transferring them into the new tank?

Regards,
Mark.


----------



## @[email protected]

well if UG has cyano on it, and you put the UG with the cyano on it into another tank, yes there will be cyano in that other tank. it may not flourish and bloom in that tank, it doesnt HAVE to become invasive, but you will have introduced it. however, it may already be present (just not vivisble, since it only forms the slimy, mat-like colonies in favorable conditions) since it is a very common organism.


----------



## ikuzo

the middle reds are amazing.
i think it's a great choice to put Nannostomus espei there.


----------



## Markone

Hi,



> since it is a very common organism.


so it´s nearly impossible to have a tank without Cyano in it?


----------



## Guest

Tom -

Your tank looks GREAT! I'm in the process of making an HC carpet right now. I'm using the ADA Grand Solar One light, which looks AWESOME!


I can't wait to see your tank with fish!

Thanks for all you add to this board!


----------



## kittytango

I Agree can't wait till it's all done and loaded with fish!


----------



## plantbrain

jazzlvr123 said:


> lol after 240 posts we finally get to see full planted the tank, simply amazing cant wait to see those background bunch plants fill out! god job


You are coming then in Aug, right?
No, you cannot play your Best of New Age and Kenny G collection CD's either.:biggrin: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

ikuzo said:


> the middle reds are amazing.
> i think it's a great choice to put Nannostomus espei there.


I have 20 red Ark coral pencils but am no longer adding them.
I think for the personality of the tank, the espesi are nicer fish, however, a bit harder to get and come by. I have about 14 nice plump ones.

Hopefully the wholesaler will have more today.
They school only with eachother, thus they will not school with the cardinals at all. 

I am testing the water for a bit until the I get into a normal Water change routine(once a week) so I can start adding the bioload, but the Nitrogen cycle is totally completed after the 1st week using the DSM.

I have a nice method to prune HC, it's a Dutch method actually and then the typically lawn mowing method. Keeps the front looking nicer IME.

The reds will bloom out even better with L pantanal. In a fews trims, they should get pretty close to this:










This is from an older tank a few years back.
The plants right now are a bit pale, but I can redden them up with time and just good health. I might even get this type of density, we will see.
I know it's possible and the word to get it there should not be too difficult.

Once you have done well, you have a good standard. Then you can repeat it and know what to look for. I think higher GH's seem to help colors a lot when you have higher nutrient levels(makes sense too, more GH= more nutrients).
This is counter to what many seem to suggest and say for advice in getting the Red out. I keep basic EI nutrient levels in these tanks.........nothing low or special. 

Looking forward to get the cardinals out of the 20 gal and see how they look against the black wood.

I got back from the sierra Buttes yesterday with some Giant Potamogeton(CA native), sort of looks like the E. Azurea, except is not a noxious weed and it is a very dramatic plant. Does very well in tropical aquariums and is typically found in lakes at 6000ft or so in the mountains here.


















Found the moss less than 2 miles from this pic.










Also found hair grass in 1.5 meters, 3 species of nice moss etc. Water was not too bad either, warmer than I thought. After the climb, we are at the top of the infamous Downieville Downhill Mt Trail, 5500ft decent though deep wood canyons 20 miles worth of tasty single track Mt Biking mayhem. That was a fun ride.

Bring the Kayak, the north Fork of Yuba beckons.
So many things to do, so little time:thumbsup: 

Not a bad day. Only one crash! And it was more painful to the ego.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Here's the giant pondweed:










It's about 6" across.

Here's a small little piece:



























Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## stargate_geek

Cool plant!


----------



## plantbrain

Picked up some and Espei pencils today and another 60 or so Amano shrimp.

I think the tank is ready for them.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## A Hill

Nice pictures as always.

Don't you love finding great plants? I also have found some new ones, only got a small stem when I was kayaking and haven't been able to get back (since I don't have a kayak:icon_neut )

CA's got better plants than RI though 

-Andrew


----------



## ikuzo

plantbrain said:


> I have 20 red Ark coral pencils but am no longer adding them.
> I think for the personality of the tank, the espesi are nicer fish, however, a bit harder to get and come by. I have about 14 nice plump ones.


the red ark, do you mean Nannostomus morthenthaleri? those are beautiful pencil fish. i've seen the espei pencils schooling in Amano's tank though, amazing scene.




plantbrain said:


> I have a nice method to prune HC, it's a Dutch method actually and then the typically lawn mowing method. Keeps the front looking nicer IME.


is it the checker board method?


----------



## CobraGuppy

Wow, the tank is AMAZING.Lovely reds

It's pretty cool how you can find plants where you live. I here there are a lot of plants in FL but all i see are vals and bacopa. Then again, i've only been to one spot


----------



## CL

man, I can only dream of getting 60 amanos at one time  amazing


----------



## Booger

plantbrain said:


> I have a nice method to prune HC, it's a Dutch method actually and then the typically lawn mowing method. Keeps the front looking nicer IME.



By all means, please elaborate. I have no problems growing HC, but keeping it managable gives me fits.


----------



## plantbrain

ikuzo said:


> the red ark, do you mean Nannostomus morthenthaleri? those are beautiful pencil fish. i've seen the espei pencils schooling in Amano's tank though, amazing scene.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is it the checker board method?



Yes, to the Corals/Red Ark, I like them, good personality.
The espei look very nice in the 180. They are not cheap for a small schooling fish.

I was considering Marbled Hatchets, but looking at the Espei, I think I may switch to the larger silver Hatchets. Not sure, they have a few other species, but they are really hard to get and rarely available, so I do not like to bother too much with fish like that.

No, it's not a checkerboard.
I cut the front and very carefully remove the HC(off to the LFS's which love to buy it). The rear, I mow but not down to the nub. Steve at AF does that, but it takes longer to recover, but forms a nice low rug 1-2 leaves deep.

I'll settle for the 3-6 leaves deep and have it recover faster. If you remove too much leaf biomass, then the plant no longer has much reserves to form new leaves, the roots still can, but they are not as good as the shoot part of the plant at this.

The Amano shrimp are all doing fine, out of 75, they are all doing fine. I may not need more than this. I lost one out of about 50 otto cats, not bad, I tend to do pretty well with Otto's. I'll likely do 60-70% 2x a week water changes since fish are in there, even though the bioload is still very low.

I removed one of the Maxi jet 2000 gph powerhead wavemakers. I figure 3000gph total is plenty and watched the flow and the fish for awhile.
You want to push them so they get exercise, while also maintaining good flow dynamics.

This way you have high O2, excellent feeding, good mixing or CO2 and outgassing if it starts to build up. This helps to maintain a good lag between adding CO2 and it's measure(better than anything else or any single factor).
If you lose too much CO2, not an issue with a venturi system, you increase the bubble rate/or reduce current. I like current and know it keeps the O2 levels nice and high in all areas as well as good CO2 mixing.

Makes good sense and you can measure it using a CO2 meter and O2 meters.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Booger said:


> By all means, please elaborate. I have no problems growing HC, but keeping it managable gives me fits.


Cut the front 1" out with a sharp paint scraper etc. It'll spread back fairly quick.

Then get some scissors and mow the rest of the lawn to 1/2" or so.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Tex Gal

I love your 60 cube. It looks like a budding spring tree with all that anubias. I think it's my favorite of your 3, although I know the other's aren't done. Your color is incredible. Hats off to you.


----------



## plantbrain

CobraGuppy said:


> Wow, the tank is AMAZING.Lovely reds
> 
> It's pretty cool how you can find plants where you live. I here there are a lot of plants in FL but all i see are vals and bacopa. Then again, i've only been to one spot


I'll be there in July taking folks around during plant fest.

L repens is all over the place, Riccia, P palustris is all over as well. Money wort too, Mayaca in some spots, banana plants, red foxtail, some weird liverwort, 2-3 sag's, Hydrilla, moss, Hair grass, Hygro, swords, etc.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## cah925

fishman9809 said:


> holy bajeebers!!!!!!!! incredible !!!!!!!!!


my sentiments exactly!


----------



## CL

plantbrain said:


> I'll be there in July taking folks around during plant fest.
> 
> L repens is all over the place, Riccia, P palustris is all over as well. Money wort too, Mayaca in some spots, banana plants, red foxtail, some weird liverwort, 2-3 sag's, Hydrilla, moss, Hair grass, Hygro, swords, etc.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


WOW! you are incredibly lucky to have such a great plant selection living so close to you.


----------



## plantbrain

The plants listed above are found in FL, not CA.

Some pics a few days later:





































HC pearls well.
Still a little Rhizoclonium, which I am not concerned about, the Amano shrimp seem like they can gnaw it down.

Fish all healthy, CO2 cranked up, lots of flow.
Hopefully things will grow in well for the open house.





Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## deleted_user_16

jeez man, that tank is incredible, got any fish closeup shots?


----------



## plantbrain

Here's one of the other small grow out tank that a mess not more than 3-4 weeks ago:

Just grouping, no real scape here:










CRS tank at day one and a complete tank redo:










Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## samckitt

Looks great. Where did you get the driftwood? What did you mount it to to keep it located & down?
Thanks


----------



## Chrisinator

Wow! :drool: :drool:


----------



## fishsandwitch

Amazing tank! I am really glad you took the time to document how you made it. Good read and resource!


----------



## blazeyreef

amazing!! speechless. One day... someday, I will be able to do that  ... I hope


----------



## CL

holy cow, that is an INCREDIBLE :drool: :eek5: :icon_eek: tank!!!!! Very well done. just AWESOME. Looks like I got a new desktop wallpaper:hihi:


----------



## sNApple

BBA on the wood yet?


----------



## lekyiscool

very nice ! will you be putting any moss on the wood?


----------



## plantbrain

sNApple said:


> BBA on the wood yet?


I would......... if I was newbie..........but I've not had BBA issues for 15 years.
Figure out how to properly use CO2 gas. Then you do not have 95% of algae related issues and 99.5% of the BBA issues.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

lekyiscool said:


> very nice ! will you be putting any moss on the wood?


No, I like the wood. 
Another way of putting it: why waste a nice piece of wood with moss?
Then it's just some amorphorus mass of moss. 
The wood loses its character, its contrast.

I can use any old piece of wood or cork bark for that.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ikuzo

plantbrain said:


> The espei look very nice in the 180. They are not cheap for a small schooling fish.
> 
> I was considering Marbled Hatchets, but looking at the Espei, I think I may switch to the larger silver Hatchets. Not sure, they have a few other species, but they are really hard to get and rarely available, so I do not like to bother too much with fish like that.


marble hatchets jump a lot, i'm not sure it's suitable for open top tanks. the silver however in large numbers surprisingly school pretty well.



plantbrain said:


> No, I like the wood.
> Another way of putting it: why waste a nice piece of wood with moss?
> Then it's just some amorphorus mass of moss.
> The wood loses its character, its contrast.


i agree here. people tend to put something over or infront of the wood and in time the wood itself dissapear behind the plants. woods are supose to be something like rocks in iwagumi tanks. it supposed to be exposed, not covered mostly then the whole thing dissapear.

in your tank however Tom, i think it will be a lot better to put some mid ground plants like blyxa or something else here and there just to make the wood less "naked".


----------



## MedRed

I really like how the wood looks. It's a stark contrast to the colors in the tank. I think plant brain was wanting to showcase the awesome wood in this tank. It looks incredible! 

How many espei do you have? I have 10 in a 40 gallon tank. I've been thinking of adding more. They are kind of getting lost in the tank now that the plants growing across the surface.


----------



## rountreesj

thguy's an expert give him a little while to develope the tank and i'm sure the "naked wood" will look perfect. Looks great to me, just needs to grow in a little. Great job Tom!


----------



## khoile

Beautiful tank! thanks for sharing.


----------



## plantbrain

ikuzo said:


> marble hatchets jump a lot, i'm not sure it's suitable for open top tanks. the silver however in large numbers surprisingly school pretty well.
> 
> 
> i agree here. people tend to put something over or infront of the wood and in time the wood itself dissapear behind the plants. woods are supose to be something like rocks in iwagumi tanks. it supposed to be exposed, not covered mostly then the whole thing dissapear.
> 
> in your tank however Tom, i think it will be a lot better to put some mid ground plants like blyxa or something else here and there just to make the wood less "naked".


True.

I have been looking for the right plant that looks nice, is somewhat eclectic, that can handle the lower light and also the higher currents, has a nice color and contrast with the HC and the wood.

The odd Hygro actually fits the bill very nicely that's over on the far right near the intake for the filter. It can handle the lower light, is very easy to trim and prune, does not grow straight for the surface.

Some of the plants from the back ground will poke through also, giving the effect as well in some spots. Adding Blyxa might be okay, I am considering B aubertii it gets about 30 cm tall and a tall grassy feel is nice in a fast flowing aquarium.

That means there's a hole over around the filter intake, so the plant might be Downoi instead over there.

I could also use Lobelia, but it looks to "gardened" more like a pruned ornamental plant than a natural look. 

I have some P yatabeana in a spot right now, which is doing pretty good actually even under the shade.

So it will be filled in some more.
On the left side, that's a Crypt Corner and is perfect since the wood shades most of the plants including C. blassii rosanervig so I get the nice veining.

I am going to use Crypt willisii and lucens(not lutea) in several spots which will look very nice against the intense bright green of the HC and the leaf shape contrast very well. These are very easy plants to grow and hardly any trimming.

I think some Erios along the brighter sections to replace the downoi will do well also. This tank looks/became mature much faster than any tank I've seen or had. I have these plants coming in soon so I can play around with them.


There are 70 shrimp, 50 ottos, 1 SAE, 35 N espei in here now.
Silver Hatches get big, I have 30 in a 350 gal tank and they are a bit too large for this tank's theme and other fish. And they jump like no other fish........if I could find a dwarf type...then it would be nice.
I do not know, maybe I'll try few fish or each and see how they look.


Future fish:
Apisto a. "red"
Apisto blue borellii
Apisto cacuatoides

Pseudo. leopardus
Gold nugget
Sturisoma panamese

And the cardinals.........

That's it.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ikuzo

i like cryptocoryne willisii because it doesn't grow big, but in your tank i think it's too small. i'm thinking cryptocoryne albida is suitable there. finding this plant in submerged form is pretty difficult though. i bought a few emersed one and took about a few weeks for them to grow submerged leaves. i find the leaves' color are amazing.

found a couple of good pics HERE and HERE


----------



## plantbrain

C. lucens is like willisii except about 2x as tall, also, this tank makes plants grow very well and thick. I'm not looking for larger mid ground plants because I am trimming the back ground plants down a fair amount. So the sizes should be smaller, but I like some variation for the right spots.


As every aquarist should be,I am very specific about what I want, not what others want

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## MedRed

plantbrain said:


> As every aquarist should be,I am very specific about what I want, not what others want


Amen!


----------



## lauraleellbp

Have you considered Hygro 'kompakt', I think from Tropica? I dunno if it meets your definition of "eclectic" and I'm not sure if it's the scale you're looking for or not, but it's an interesting little plant.

If you find a source for dwarf hatchets please pass it along- I've been looking for some with no luck since January.


----------



## Chrisinator

I still can't get over your tank! What's your technique! :help: :icon_twis Share with us:bounce:


----------



## jazzlvr123

plantbrain said:


> You are coming then in Aug, right?
> No, you cannot play your Best of New Age and Kenny G collection CD's either.:biggrin:
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


yup ill be there. so were settled on the 23rd then?



plantbrain said:


> Silver Hatches get big, I have 30 in a 350 gal tank and they are a bit too large for this tank's theme and other fish. And they jump like no other fish........if I could find a dwarf type...then it would be nice.


dwarf hatchets? you mean Carnegiella schereri? Theres a wholesaler in Germany I went through when i lived in Ca that had those but he called them pygmy hatchets (he also sells tons or rare plecos including the infamous zebras). if thats the same fauna your talking about pm me, just remember the person who sells them asks for a $500 minimum order. international orders are a pain but when you want rare stuff sometimes theres no way around it.


----------



## ikuzo

plantbrain said:


> C. lucens is like willisii except about 2x as tall, also, this tank makes plants grow very well and thick. I'm not looking for larger mid ground plants because I am trimming the back ground plants down a fair amount. So the sizes should be smaller, but I like some variation for the right spots.
> 
> As every aquarist should be,I am very specific about what I want, not what others want


just suggesting here Tom 
btw, those amanos and 50 ottocinclus are a lot of fish for an algae free tank.


----------



## plantbrain

lauraleellbp said:


> Have you considered Hygro 'kompakt', I think from Tropica? I dunno if it meets your definition of "eclectic" and I'm not sure if it's the scale you're looking for or not, but it's an interesting little plant.
> 
> If you find a source for dwarf hatchets please pass it along- I've been looking for some with no luck since January.


Thank you, that's actually a good plant that I'd forgotten all about........ I have the dwarf low growing hygro in another tank, but the green and larger leaf would contrast better as well as the height being better than the dwarf.

I am not unwilling to use a nice somewhat common plant, if it "fits". Using a common plant in an uncommon way is always good too:thumbsup: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

ikuzo said:


> just suggesting here Tom
> btw, those amanos and 50 ottocinclus are a lot of fish for an algae free tank.


Hehe, yes.
Don't worry, I think everyone's suggestions are good and think about them, even if I appear not to listen :redface: 

I'd planned on more Amanos and otto, but these have done their job very well I'd say already. So that algae crew is done I think. I got somewhat lucky with targetting the correct CO2 right away.

Not sure if it's due to the well cycled DSM, CO2 target and much less issue with the start up phase or something else. The issues during start up where certainly minimal though.

Compared to the 38 gal(pure Hades), this tank started without any issues.
But the 38 is very well cycled like a 6-12 month old tank now.

The theory behind the DSM seems to support the 180's success.
I did not allow enough time for the plants to root(2 weeks) and those that did, melted due to all the NH4 out of the ADA AS batch I had in the 38. 
I thought I'd try a somewhat middle ground with the DSM rather than a full rug. Did not appear to work well(2 weeks of DSM) for the 38 but may be due to the ADA AS batch. Hard to say.

I do like the rate of growth in the 180. I have the MH's on for 6 hours now until things grow in, then I can reduce it to about 4 hours. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

jazzlvr123 said:


> yup ill be there. so were settled on the 23rd then?
> 
> 
> 
> dwarf hatchets? you mean Carnegiella schereri? Theres a wholesaler in Germany I went through when i lived in Ca that had those but he called them pygmy hatchets (he also sells tons or rare plecos including the infamous zebras). if thats the same fauna your talking about pm me, just remember the person who sells them asks for a $500 minimum order. international orders are a pain but when you want rare stuff sometimes theres no way around it.


Yes, Aug 23rd.
1pm to 7pm

I will see what the wholesaler might have for me.
500$ min orders are typical for many higher end fish.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## lauraleellbp

Maybe we could put together a group order? I know there have been a few other ppl on here over the past few months saying they were looking for dwarf hatchets as well... I'm stocking a 90gal, so I'd be interested in about 20-25 fish.


----------



## plantbrain

My Aquarium can handle many fish, but I do not like subdividing nor shipping fish one bit.

So unless you are local and willing to come over to pick up the fish, I'm out on that one.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Now with fish:










Weeds:



















Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Crystalview

That looks wonderful! What is the red plant in the second pic. I am guessing but it must be at the right end of the tank. The wood darkened up nice. Starting the way you did on this tank really made the base fill in nice and solid. 
I too love neon's.


----------



## stargate_geek

That's fantastic! 

What's that plant in the last picture? I really like it! A hygro maybe?


----------



## A Hill

That sure does look great!

The cabomba against the wood looks really nice as well.

-Andrew


----------



## jazzlvr123

Crystalview said:


> What is the red plant in the second pic.


*Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Pantanal'*


----------



## Chrisinator

Sweet tank!


----------



## plantbrain

There's no cabomba in there

P yatabeana
P stellata needle leaf
M matogrossense
Tonia belem
L pantanal
L aromatica
Downoi
HC obviously
Crypt blassii rosanervig
Crypt lucens
Crypt willisii
Bacopa carolina(to be replaced with langeri)
Stargrass

About it.

I'll reduce this number of species down also and might switch out some for Bylxa aubertii, fatten some areas up with more of a single species and thin others out.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Crystalview said:


> That looks wonderful! What is the red plant in the second pic. I am guessing but it must be at the right end of the tank. The wood darkened up nice. Starting the way you did on this tank really made the base fill in nice and solid.
> I too love neon's.


Those are Cardinals.
The Hygro is some weird plant, nice for scaping etc, good midground weed.
Not sure about the identity. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

jazzlvr123 said:


> *Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Pantanal'*


Link is dead:


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/m...igia_inclinata_var_verticillata_Pantanal.html

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## MrJG

Tom that hygro that you have looks very similar if not exactly like my Limnophila 'mini'.


----------



## garuf

More pictures if you don't mind, I'd really like to see how the plants are growing in with a whole tank shot. 
It all looks amazing to me. I'm 110% envious.


----------



## southerndesert

Yes MORE...MORE...


----------



## A Hill

plantbrain said:


> There's no cabomba in there
> M matogrossense
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Hmm thought it was cabomba at first, I think I'm thinking of this stem... 

Can you tell all stems look similar to me :hihi

Regardless the tank looks great.

I'm a moss guy,
-Andrew


----------



## ikuzo

beautiful espei as expected, do they always swim at the upper part like that?
are those snails on the wood?


----------



## MedRed

I've only seen espei not schooling at the top in their "for sale" tank at the lfs. The lfs has some in a display tank that all stay at the top. I decided to buy 10 for that reason and they also school at the top.


----------



## ikuzo

googling told me they school around the top when they're in great condition. so... yeah...


----------



## SearunSimpson

That is a sick tank. I really like the Espeis (sp?). 
I'm hoping to do a 90gl full of pencils- but I can only dream it will look as good as this tank.


----------



## plantbrain

MrJG said:


> Tom that hygro that you have looks very similar if not exactly like my Limnophila 'mini'.


I'm not sure about the species and I do not think anyone really is that I trust.
I have perhaps one of the best taxonomist around at th state, but it's work, not hobby related and he's grumpy and over worked
I'm okay at it, but this guy is truly awesome.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, pencils(N. espei) will hang out together in the upper regions.
I'll go with normal hatchets I think.
They sit right on the surface, the pencils right below, the Cards around the plants, Apistos, plecos, etc are rather cryptic etc.

I did redo the 60 gal:










Need to add a few more fish to finish the fish part.
Then add some moss rocks around the edge of the wood, give some time for the ferns and moss, etc to grow in better.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## waterfaller1

So healthy & lush,it's beautiful Tom. edit: I see there is lots of great info and some beautiful photos in this thread. I like your cubes back a few pages, to spite you saying they are not 'scaped'. I love the hanging light and open look. Looks like I have 22 pages to read through...


----------



## fishsandwitch

plantbrain did you ever get my PM?


----------



## Gatekeeper

Tom,

I love the "creeping look" that the petite has up the hardscape. Sweet. Are those tied on, or just placed strategically in nooks and crannies?

How about a FTS?


----------



## plantbrain

gmccreedy said:


> Tom,
> 
> I love the "creeping look" that the petite has up the hardscape. Sweet. Are those tied on, or just placed strategically in nooks and crannies?
> 
> How about a FTS?


I do not "tie" plants. I use U shaped nails for for soft cork attachment or drill holes into the wood itself prior to planting, then I simply and rapidly push the plants in where they are suppose to be.

This cube has the same wood type as the 180 Gal.
However, unlike the 180, all the plants except for Corkscrew Val in the rear(they only get a max of 12" tall), are not in the sediment at all.

The sediment is pure dolomite, white and no nutrients added, it is a polar opposite sediment type compared to ADA AS.

Yet they still grow plants well.
The wood here is the main substrate for plants, in the 180, the wood is bare with no epiphytes.

The Anubias is a bit raggy due to poor CO2 at one point.
It will take some time for it to grow out and look better.
I have some Riccia mixed in and it will entangle and add bright pearling look to the upper sections without having to tie or trim it often.

The rock is required to hold the wood in place after gluing Cork bark for the Bolbtius. Cork is very bouyant. I plan on covering the rock with Moss.

I could use Xmas moss and it would grow very rapidly in here, however, I'm trying to keep the Fissidens pure and let it fill in. It grows okay, but nothing like the maddening rate of Xmas moss which adheres very well.
I cannot use Excel since I have a lot of moss/liverwort in here. 
Then I also have a lot of high light HQI etc.
Once things start filling in and growing well, then it's fine, but that transition did not go as well as I'd hoped.

I suppose I could have done the DSM here, but the open top and wood made it tougher, still, Bolbtius and Anubias all do well with the DSM and some fertigation spray.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

fishsandwitch said:


> plantbrain did you ever get my PM?


Yes. Thanks, but no.
If you send your address, then yes, perhaps for free.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

I did a water change today and will get some pics later tonight.
I'll be adding more fish later next week and the following week.
The New Bacopa langeri is doing well, not sure if I like the contrast vs the B carolina. I might go back. I was hoping the contrast of the whiter, brighter color against the dark wood would look better. Still need to think more about it.

Thinned out some the P yatabeana, let the Tonia fill it more, a piece of wood I had glued moved on me and I do not think I can add it back easily.
Kind of got in my way a lot and the scape tends to cover the piece a lot as well.

Fish eat well.

Need to mow the HC and edge work the front.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Update:










Redid the 60 a bit:










Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Not only is Tom the water weed master, but look how he aquascaped those fish to swim at perfect levels.!!!


----------



## plantbrain

Orlando said:


> Not only is Tom the water weed master, but look how he aquascaped those fish to swim at perfect levels.!!!


Yea, but I did not sit down with a 2000$ camera and scripted looked, lighted correctly with 2 flashes, I did not wipe the glass, I took a quick point and shoot of a real tank that's running..........

The weeds you see are the ones I'm hacking right now to be shipped.
I'll show the details on the HC and how to keep it looking nice with less labor a bit later. I cut out about 1 sqft of HC 2" deep and it barely looks like it. And it'll grow back in 2-4 weeks at most.

Regards,
Tom Barr


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

What a cool place it must be to hang out drink some milk and stare at beautiful tanks..Ahhhhh!


----------



## MedRed

i know right Orlando. Up for an open house Tom?


----------



## plantbrain

MedRed said:


> i know right Orlando. Up for an open house Tom?


This Aug 23(Sat).

SAPS and SFBAAPS folks are welcomed to attend.
I make exceptions however if I know them

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Phil Edwards

Tom,

What're you using the powerhead in the 60 for, surface agitation?


----------



## plantbrain

Phil Edwards said:


> Tom,
> 
> What're you using the powerhead in the 60 for, surface agitation?


Hi Phil,
Where the heck have you been lately?

Yes, I use it to add flow/current and mixing.
It gives the rippled effect on the surface I like, allows less energy to be used on the main filter/pump.

The 180gal has a 2000 gph maxi jet that uses only 18 w since there is no head pressure or restriction. 

Electrical cost, plumbing and initial start up cost are greatly reduced.

I do not need more filtration, I just need good current.
So I focus the goal rather than doing what is typically suggested. 

Reef folks also do this vs having massive high flow filters.
Wave timers might not be required to the same degree in FW planted tanks, but they do help also.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Augus

plantbrain said:


> I'll show the details on the HC and how to keep it looking nice with less labor a bit later. I cut out about 1 sqft of HC 2" deep and it barely looks like it. And it'll grow back in 2-4 weeks at most.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Hi Tom,

Great tank!

After seeing this thread can't wait to try out, so just place an order for ADA AS and 40watt light fixture to try out on rimless 10 gal.

Can't wait to see the detail.


----------



## prototyp3

Really great looking tanks. I like how you aren't covering the wood but instead framing it with plants. Those pieces of wood have some real nice shapes to them.


----------



## plantbrain

Added another:

70 Cardinals 
5 gold nuggets
30 Marble Hatchets
5 Apisto cac's
5 Apisto borelli
1 Checker board male(more to come)

Tank looks pretty full.

I'll add about 4 more checkerboards, and the royal farowellas(5)
That will be it.

Schooling is good except the Hatchets and pencils sometimes hang a bit. But they are new and as the Hatchets and pencils fatten up a bit, they should segregate. If not, I might switch to the silver hatchets which might actually look better even though they do get bigger.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## MedRed

very nice... we have similar tastes in fish i see.


----------



## plantbrain

You can see the front edge pruning using a plastic paint scraper:










Takes a few minutes to do it and it looks nice after.
I do not like the plants pushing up in the front of the glass.

I trimmed out 30 pantanal stems so that's a bit thin and redid some background plants to fill in the species I like more.

Here's the male checkerboard and you can see how well the method for trimming the HC front works:


















Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## MedRed

looks amazing! i want to try emersed HC in a bad way. I have a tank with everything you have in yours except the gold nuggets and espei. I don't have any gold nuggets but i have espei in another tank. your cardinals will look awesome if they school about. some of my cardinal schools mill about while the rummynoses school to and fro.


----------



## plantbrain

For scaping, I prune the pantanal down below the Tonia and wait till it's very over grown first. Then replant very densely.

Been selling it to folks so I will stop that for a few weeks to fatten it up.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

MedRed said:


> looks amazing! i want to try emersed HC in a bad way. I have a tank with everything you have in yours except the gold nuggets and espei. I don't have any gold nuggets but i have espei in another tank. your cardinals will look awesome if they school about. some of my cardinal schools mill about while the rummynoses school to and fro.


Actually the cards school very well and exclusively. Long runs much like Rummy's. You cannot see the current in here but it's intense compared to most tanks.

Rummys will be the main theme for the 120 gal dutch which I'll set up in 2 weeks.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## deleted_user_16

is your 120 dutch going to house similar plants or a whole different selection? your HC looks so juicy


----------



## MedRed

[email protected]

Tom: Are you able to take video of your tank and capture the current?


----------



## plantbrain

fishman9809 said:


> is your 120 dutch going to house similar plants or a whole different selection? your HC looks so juicy


My 38 is a similar smaller scale to the 120, but it'll be fuller, dutch style vs the open look with the landscaping design that is in the 180.

The 38 will be broken down and converted into the Cherry Tree theme and a more open rather obvious look to the scape.

The 60 Cube West African just needs time, maybe another 3-4 months to really look nice the way I want.

Then I will get to the marine reef sometime too

Maybe someone will come for the open house and buy some ADA AS or a nice rimless 20 gal plant tank complete except for CO2 gas tank/reg(hint hint).:redface: 

I'll get a video up someday.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## deleted_user_16

so which tanks will we possibly see at the August meet for SFBAAPS?


----------



## neonmkr

Nice!!


----------



## plantbrain

fishman9809 said:


> so which tanks will we possibly see at the August meet for SFBAAPS?


All of them.
The reef will not be ready, it'll have some water etc.
But the other tank ought to be okay by then although the 120 will be only 1 month old. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## deleted_user_16

wow, if i go, i am going to be swept of my feet, that is for sure  what are you planning for the marine tank?


----------



## NATURE AQUARIUM

Hey Tom, 
I do not know if you have any pic's of your plumbing & other equipment under your tanks. Could you post some pic's, if you have not already posted them.

Thank, Johnny B.


----------



## jazzlvr123

any rosanervig veining since you put it in its new home?


----------



## plantbrain

jazzlvr123 said:


> any rosanervig veining since you put it in its new home?


Yes.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## scolley

Tom - Your tank looks outstanding! You gotta be happy with that. It looks great. It's been a fun watching this develop, and it is a treat to see it looking so incredible.

Thanks for sharing. Nothing like keeping that bar raised for us to aspire to!


----------



## Guest

Yes it does look great. I like how you trimmed the plants of the glass like you did. very nice!


----------



## plantbrain

rick4him said:


> Yes it does look great. I like how you trimmed the plants of the glass like you did. very nice!


It's more a Dutch style technique seen in older tanks, an aesthetic I prefer (among other Europeans) than a Nature Aquarium look(pressed against the glass).

My 38 Cube is this same way but more full like a traditional dutch style.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

scolley said:


> Tom - Your tank looks outstanding! You gotta be happy with that. It looks great. It's been a fun watching this develop, and it is a treat to see it looking so incredible.
> 
> Thanks for sharing. Nothing like keeping that bar raised for us to aspire to!


I have more work to do.
Need to install a fan for cooling under the stand.

Allow the plants to fill in and mature more.
I'm opting for some Bylxa, sort of a cop out really, but I could not argue with the look and feel for the hedge between the HC and the front edge on the right hand side.

I might add some Erio cin to those in front if there's enough space, the contrast would be nice. A nice bushy plant like Blyxa is very useful in an area where it's both dark and bright without taking a beating.

Still not settled on the rear planting species and I need to mow the HC somewhat soon.

Then I have to start setting up the 120 Gal next weekend  

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CL

plantbrain said:


> I have more work to do.
> I need to mow the HC somewhat soon.


What is your method on this? Do you have a net over it to catch the trimmings? The tiny leaves would be a pain to clean up in this tank


----------



## plantbrain

clwatkins10 said:


> What is your method on this? Do you have a net over it to catch the trimmings? The tiny leaves would be a pain to clean up in this tank


No, I cut sheets, these are easy to nab as a whole mat.
I also cut strips for the front and back edges. You just use a plastic paint scraper to cut the sod and then giggle it loose.

Some pieces might get loose etc, but a quick netting takes care of that.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## GotMC

Where do you buy your fish do you buy in bulk or no because thats alot of $$$ if you dont!!!


----------



## plantbrain

GotMC said:


> Where do you buy your fish do you buy in bulk or no because thats alot of $$$ if you dont!!!


Not at the LFS................we buy many 1000$ worth of fish for lakes and other larger scaled projects.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## annette

I can hardly wait to see the tank when its got the plants, water and fish in it. I can't find one decent piece of drftwood here much less all that. Your tank is going to be outstanding!!!!


----------



## stargate_geek

annette said:


> I can hardly wait to see the tank when its got the plants, water and fish in it. I can't find one decent piece of drftwood here much less all that. Your tank is going to be outstanding!!!!


There are already are pictures. Check the other pages.


----------



## Phil Edwards

plantbrain said:


> Hi Phil,
> Where the heck have you been lately?


I had a divorce and grad school to get through these past couple of years so I've been in and out, lurking around since about 2006. I've got a good job in Atlanta now doing wetland work and am praying for sufficient rain to complete my research.


Do I understand correctly then that you're not using a filter or are underfiltering per traditional thought and supplimenting with a powerhead? I was doing just that with a 75 moderate-growth setup and it worked like a charm.

I love that Anubias tank! 

See you in November?

Regards,
Phil


----------



## thefishmanlives

*bulbs*

Tom not sure if you mentioned it already but I dont recalling seeing what color HQI and PC bulbs you went with. I am assuming that they are coralife as well?


----------



## jazzlvr123

thefishmanlives said:


> Tom not sure if you mentioned it already but I dont recalling seeing what color HQI and PC bulbs you went with. I am assuming that they are coralife as well?


the HQI's are 8000k 

I think the compacts are one 6700 and one 10,000 but not totally positive last time I saw him I remember him saying we was looking into 9325 k's but i don't think they make them for his particular fixture length, however I'm sure tom will correct me if I'm wrong soon enough


----------



## plantbrain

Phil Edwards said:


> I had a divorce and grad school to get through these past couple of years so I've been in and out, lurking around since about 2006. I've got a good job in Atlanta now doing wetland work and am praying for sufficient rain to complete my research.
> 
> Do I understand correctly then that you're not using a filter or are underfiltering per traditional thought and supplimenting with a powerhead? I was doing just that with a 75 moderate-growth setup and it worked like a charm.
> 
> I love that Anubias tank!
> 
> See you in November?
> 
> Regards,
> Phil


Yes, I'll come. 
I am using a good sized filtration system, but also added current instead of trying to run high flows through the filter at a much higher wattage than the lower pressure propeller pumps used on reefs etc.

Planted tanks have the same issues as reefs when it comes to current.
Too much current is bad for many species of corals(well, except reef crest have extreme and intertidals) and likewise plants do best at moderate velocities. Not more than 1-2 m/s.
I have about 0.5 /s in 25% of the tank.

Yes, the lights are 8000K HQI and 6700K PC's, they do not make a9235K 35" 96 W bulb.

I have the 21 " versions, but would have to remove the 4x96 and add 6x 65 W and new ballast to adapt it.

It's possible, but a lot of work.

The growth is intense lately.
I raised the lights to slow growth but the L pantanal is still doing no less than 6-8" per week.

Other plants are going nuts also.
The HC slowed down when I adjusted the lighting and a few touches of algae went away.

It's hot here, 110F today + smoke from 1200 fires in the state. Hack!
I need to move to the coast

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## thefishmanlives

Im assuming those are the ada 8000k hqi bulbs?


----------



## ZooTycoonMaster

Is there an update on this yet?


----------



## plantbrain

Adding some Bylxa, some Hygro compacta, thinning the Tonia, still not fully decided on the background plants.
Need to mow the HC.

Everything is growing really fast.
Removed the marble hatchets, think I might go with the larger silvers, the marbles look a lot like the Pencils, and the hatchets bite the tails off the pencils(seen it several times). Not sure if the larger silver hatchets will or not, might leave them out of the community if so.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## deleted_user_16

wow, marbles fin nipping??? never heard that. they are like super peaceful. i think you should try another hatchet, they look very nice at the top on ur tank


----------



## helgymatt

Tom,
What model Mazzei do you use on this tank?


----------



## mrkookm

Use a 384P and check this thread out


----------



## helgymatt

mrkookm said:


> Use a 384P and check this thread out


Thanks. Do you and Tom use the 384 too?


----------



## mrkookm

I use a 384P but Tom's choice is the 584P whenever he uses one.

If I had a 180 I would still use a 384P.


----------



## monkeyruler90

tank looks awesome
i love all the fauna
when are the apistos going in?


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...n/70684-4-days-no-light-filtration-power.html


----------



## jackh

that tank looks amazing. any updated pics?


----------



## jaidexl

jackh said:


> that tank looks amazing. any updated pics?


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...n/70684-4-days-no-light-filtration-power.html


----------



## jackh

wow that blows


----------



## plantbrain

The royals have mauled all attempts at redoing the HC.
Will switch out either the fish or the plant.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## reddragon1977

after reading this journal i have to ask. since the driftwood is close by..will you ship to Canada?


----------



## plantbrain

reddragon1977 said:


> after reading this journal i have to ask. since the driftwood is close by..will you ship to Canada?


No, I do not "sell wood" or plants etc as a retail operation. I get items for myself, if I have left overs, I post and sell them, but I do not look at it as a method for profit, just selling off left over stuff which has a very bad habit of accumulating profusely!

I do have for sale:

OC 325
OC 318 new
Iwaki RT 40 new
Venturi 1/2 Kent new
Venturi 584 Mazzei new
Venturi 684 mazzei new

Same type of stuff on the tank above.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Update on the tank, added new plecos(3 emperor, 3 King Farowella flat cats), all doing well and eating good.

Trying to see if the plecos will not uproot the Gloss mat. Decided I wanted a more aggressive foreground weed.

Considered using Downoi, Erios, white sand, hair grass would make it also, or the dwarf hygro. I'll wait and see if the gloss makes it, the flat cats are bit like stingray, they bury, so it's not something I'm that hopeful for. I could remove them but I like these fish too much and they are exceedingly rare.

HC has been moved to the 38 Cube for a rock scape, hardscape is in place but I have not planted the HC yet. 

I may reduce the species no# down for the plants in the 180.
But I need to decide on the front area for plants, sand etc.

I might change over the Tonia for Erio Secatum and remove the P stelleta.

This would leave the L pantanal, Blyxa, Erio secatum, R pusilla, Crypt rosanervig, Bacopa and Rotala green.

I'd honestly like to add the HC back, but the plecos will maul it.
I could put them in another tank for awhile, but then I could still not add them back here.

I'm not willing to get rid of the plecos, so I have to decide on what other options I may do. I have a really nice scape in mind, but the HC is required.

A bit of a pickle.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## jaidexl

plantbrain said:


> I do have for sale...


You have mail.


Can't wait to see pics of the re-coop effort. Plecs sure are a bugger. They destroy my large leave plants so I've been holding off on them. Miss seeing them move around the tank.


----------



## Cmaddog

*Hatchetfish...*

This may be a stupid question, but how do you keep the hatchetfish in the tank? It is an open top, do you lose a lot of stock or do they not jump out. When I had them previously, I would feed the fish and catch the hatchets that jumped out as I was dropping food into the tank. Thanks. Beautiful tank!


----------



## plantbrain

No hatchets:redface:

I added 7 nice Altums 2 days ago and they are eating frozen brine and blood worms nicely.

Who knew?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## deleted_user_16

i lvoe altums!!! are we going to get little treats called pics? 

sounds like a great addition Tom!!!


----------



## NATURE AQUARIUM

fishman9809 said:


> i lvoe altums!!! are we going to get little treats called pics?
> 
> sounds like a great addition Tom!!!


I LOVE LITTLE TREATS!!!!!!!!

Hope to see some pic's soon


----------



## NanoDan

*Nice driftwood*

Absolutely an amazing looking piece of driftwood. Is where you collected it from near Sacramento? I have been searching for someplace to get some wood for couple 20 gallon tanks.


----------



## plantbrain

Quick snaps:




























I'll get more up after I decide what to do about the scape.
I think I'll be redoing it a lot this weekend.

These fish eat like little pigs.
Folks have said if you look at them wrong they die.
Well......there's some proof that's not the case.........and they are not that shy any more, they run up to the glass and to the surface looking for food everytime.

Like little pig cichlids that they are.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Guest

Tom if you have time could you do a full front shot if possible?


----------



## plantbrain

DementedMindz said:


> Tom if you have time could you do a full front shot if possible?


I do not.

I have to redo the scape still and and front has not filled in with the gloss.
That takes time, I have to clean the glass, get the camera all set up, then it's day time, so reflection city.

Folks wanted some pics of the fish, there ya go
I have a good vision of what I want with this tank now.
So I'll work to that goal.
I did not prior as much.

The Altums "fit" very well with the species and I have some plecos and Royals I've added and removed to achieve the fish population I want as well as the scape, slopes, and plant species.

I plan on reducing the plant species down about 1/2.
L pantanal will be removed most likely. Damn weed. 12" per week:icon_roll

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## JDowns

plantbrain said:


> The Altums "fit" very well with the species and I have some plecos and Royals I've added and removed to achieve the fish population I want as well as the scape, slopes, and plant species.
> 
> I plan on reducing the plant species down about 1/2.
> L pantanal will be removed most likely. Damn weed. 12" per week:icon_roll
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Love the Altums. I've been considering them for my empty 150, well besides the shrimp population would take a noticable hit, either Altums or a nice shoal of pencils.

Keeping my eyes peeled in the FS thread on the LP's :confused1:


----------



## Cmaddog

*No hatchets?*

As I sometimes do I was reading through a couple of threads at the same time. Thanks for not calling me idiot. How big are your altums, and where did you get them? Thanks again!


----------



## Phil Edwards

"This little piggy chowed on blood worms..."

Great shots Tom! I LOVE the altums; great choice for the tank. The tank's 24" tall, right? 

Shoot me a PM if you're up for divesting yourself of some of your plants. I might have just the place for them.

Regards,
Phil


----------



## plantbrain

Cmaddog said:


> As I sometimes do I was reading through a couple of threads at the same time. Thanks for not calling me idiot. How big are your altums, and where did you get them? Thanks again!


I buy from a wholesaler directly.:redface:
Sorry, I do sell to anyone unless you are a client I work for and do scaping and set ups for. That's part of the good deal I give clients locally.

They are about 3-4" long and about 4-5" tall.
I know what nice ones look like.
I've had two insane clients who where nuts about them that I've done tank set ups for.

I've seen 1" fry raised up to full sized adults over 12' tall.

So I knew these looked like good stock, that's hard to find.
A retail price would be about 40$ ea for this quality.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Phil Edwards said:


> "This little piggy chowed on blood worms..."
> 
> Great shots Tom! I LOVE the altums; great choice for the tank. The tank's 24" tall, right?
> 
> Shoot me a PM if you're up for divesting yourself of some of your plants. I might have just the place for them.
> 
> Regards,
> Phil


Mostly some Eustralis(Pogostemon) needle leaf. 
25" is the tank's heigh but 23" is the average height.

They will be fine as they grow.
I feed them 5-6X a day a little each time.
They will get pretty good and fat this way.

They like the current oddly.
Yes, this tank gets regular old EI dosing.............

Still folks out there claiming stress to their fish due to CO2 or EI dosing:icon_roll

Yet here we go...............this time my own personal tank.
Be funny if they laid eggs

Not likely, too many shrimp and plecos.
Then there's just the fact no one has ever done it either.
I do not have my hopes up for that one.
I would bet against it myself.:thumbsup:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## stargate_geek

What is the current foreground(s) on this tank?


----------



## CL

I love those cards and angels  The stripes on the angels are great. I really like this tank and can't wait to see where it is going.


----------



## plantbrain

stargate_geek said:


> What is the current foreground(s) on this tank?


Gloss, still undecided here, but it's starting to run and fill in.
So I'll see.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## @[email protected]

if the glosso doesnt work out, may i suggest you try some riccia, if you can handle the mess of trimming and/or retying. there is no doubt that it is huge pain, but it is worth it IMO.
tank will look nice no matter what you do. colors are great, and the plants are clearly thriving.


----------



## CL

Since we're suggesting foreground plants, I'd say go for downoi or hairgrass, or maybe a mix of both?


----------



## plantbrain

clwatkins10 said:


> I love those cards and angels  The stripes on the angels are great. I really like this tank and can't wait to see where it is going.


Well, it's not really all that great at the moment, but it will do well here in the next few months as I work more on it.

The HC melt back in July and no power for 4 days at 100F+ heat really messed the plan up.

Now the fish are all in, cannot do the Dry Start, so I have to work slower.
I'm not as fond of the filter system, the OC's clogged a bit faster than I'd hoped. This affects the venturi CO2 some.

So I'm cleaning them more often.
I might add an overflow wet/dry sump etc style in here with dual filter bags and a stack of sponge/lava for bio.

Then feed the CO2 into the venturi and back into the return.

The tank has virtually zero algae.
Maybe a small amount of GSA I clean off once every 1-2 months.
Same for the other tanks except the 120 which is still maturing some and gets a bit more glass algae here and there(clean maybe once every 2 weeks still).

Cards are scared of the Angels. Which is good.
Angels do not seem much interested in the Amano shrimps.
They are fine eating the easier to catch Mysid shrimp.

If they eat frozen mysids, brine, and frozen worms, they will do very well over time. I'm not a fan of live worms. Diseases...........Every single time..............and about 25 years of trying to use them.................never had any issues with brine or frozen foods. I can and do dope the frozen foods with algae, protein powder etc.
Makes all the fish do nicely.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## @[email protected]

hairgrass might choke the downoi. the stuff is a major weed.


----------



## plantbrain

clwatkins10 said:


> Since we're suggesting foreground plants, I'd say go for downoi or hairgrass, or maybe a mix of both?


Yea, I have enough downoi to do it, I think it's a nice plant for this tank. Not too much work either, nice brighter green, but not quite.

I'm still partial to the HC, so I more to mull over. I have nothing but HC in a rockscape, so I want to do something different for this one, but I might just focus on the tank without such consideration for species.

The color and leaf shape of HC does look nice in this tank and the layout I have in mind.

I also had enough Tonia belem tops to make a foreground.
Interesting and not a normal plant for a foreground.

I'll have to go home and mull it over and start in on it.
I'm just happy with the fish stocking. It's much like the plants, never quite what you think until you get it in there and think and look at them/it.

You have to try it and see.

I will remove the Espei pencils and sell them I think.
Any takers locally? hehe
10$ ea

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> if the glosso doesnt work out, may i suggest you try some riccia, if you can handle the mess of trimming and/or retying. there is no doubt that it is huge pain, but it is worth it IMO.
> tank will look nice no matter what you do. colors are great, and the plants are clearly thriving.


Yea, I have some mini riccia that would look nice and give that same aesthetic as HC, it would be a temporary thing however.

If someone has about 2 gal worth, I would do it.

It grows fast enough, I might while other things fill in.

It last about 6-10 weeks without trimming too much, then it starts to rip apart. I could also do moss rocks.

But it's messy and really dark also, that does not contrast well with the wood.

Something that's nice bright green and pearls a lot.
Hair grass is easy and will root well with the fish in here now, but it's not as bright green as I'd like.

Never the perfect plant:redface:

Regards, 
tom Barr


----------



## @[email protected]

mini riccia? what is that? i never heard of any riccia but riccia fluitans. if you have any pics of this plant could you post 1 or 2? im really curious.
if you want pearling nothing ever pearled as much for me as my riccia. not even close.


----------



## bsmith

Do you have the large variety of Royal (im assuming it's plecos your talking about) or smaller? I have a l-91 (smaller about 5" total) in a tank with discus and have had it over 5 years. They are so "beastly" looking from the front it scares some of my friends. Then I put my arm in the tank put him in my hand and all their pre concieved notions go away!


----------



## helgymatt

plantbrain said:


> Something that's nice bright green and pearls a lot.
> Hair grass is easy and will root well with the fish in here now, but it's not as bright green as I'd like.
> 
> Never the perfect plant:redface:
> 
> Regards,
> tom Barr


How about HM? - Mine is very bright green. See my signature. 
Downside is you have to trim it a lot and thats messy! Or what I did last is rip it all up, replant the tops and the mess is less. It fills in in a week or two. Maybe doesn't pearl a lot also.


----------



## plantbrain

bsmith782 said:


> Do you have the large variety of Royal (im assuming it's plecos your talking about) or smaller? I have a l-91 (smaller about 5" total) in a tank with discus and have had it over 5 years. They are so "beastly" looking from the front it scares some of my friends. Then I put my arm in the tank put him in my hand and all their pre concieved notions go away!


No, Sturisoma sp.

Royals are not too my liking for planted tanks with wood etc, they eat wood.
Neat fish, prefer the blue eyes P suttonii, but they are not cheap any longer.
They use to be 15$ at the LFS, Zebras L46's use to be 40-50$ and 20$ at the wholesaler.

The cost for everything else is similar, just a few have gone way up.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## dewalltheway

I am not sure how this plant would do as a foreground, but you have a large tank so it may look alright and that is creeping jenny. It has bigger leaves but the color of green would contrast well with your wood and it doesn't grow real fast. Just a thought. HM would also look nice but that is a fast grower and you would be trimming that every week (not to mention the mess).


----------



## shewey

Hi Tom,

Awesome tank mate and love the Altums!

Can you tell me a bit about your fert dosing. ie. How much macro/micro and on what schedule.

Cheers,
Mark.


----------



## helgymatt

shewey said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Awesome tank mate and love the Altums!
> 
> Can you tell me a bit about your fert dosing. ie. How much macro/micro and on what schedule.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mark.


I'm pretty sure Tom uses the Estimative Index...right Tom


----------



## shewey

helgymatt said:


> I'm pretty sure Tom uses the Estimative Index...right Tom


Well yes that was obvious, but my question was how much macro/micro and on what schedule. 

Cheers,
Mark


----------



## NATURE AQUARIUM

Thanks Tom for the pic's, love the Altums!


----------



## CL

Can you post a picture of the anubias cube tank? Has it grown any?


----------



## bsmith

Nice, I have been trying to locate some farlowella's for quite a while now. Deff a good choice in a planted tank. Do you find them to be as useless for algea removal as most plecos are? 

As far as my royal goes I have had him before I got into the planted aspect of fishkeeping and cant bring myself to get rid of him just to keep my erios in the substrate! He does love rasping on the manzanita for sure.



plantbrain said:


> No, Sturisoma sp.
> 
> Royals are not too my liking for planted tanks with wood etc, they eat wood.
> Neat fish, prefer the blue eyes P suttonii, but they are not cheap any longer.
> They use to be 15$ at the LFS, Zebras L46's use to be 40-50$ and 20$ at the wholesaler.
> 
> The cost for everything else is similar, just a few have gone way up.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


----------



## Raul-7

plantbrain said:


> Yet here we go...............this time my own personal tank.
> Be funny if they laid eggs
> 
> Not likely, too many shrimp and plecos.
> Then there's just the fact no one has ever done it either.
> I do not have my hopes up for that one.
> I would bet against it myself.:thumbsup:
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


It's been done, just not regularly. 

http://www.archangelus.com/breedingaltums


----------



## srud

plantbrain said:


> I'm not as fond of the filter system, the OC's clogged a bit faster than I'd hoped. This affects the venturi CO2 some.
> 
> So I'm cleaning them more often.
> I might add an overflow wet/dry sump etc style in here with dual filter bags and a stack of sponge/lava for bio.


 Beautiful tank! I've been close to pulling the trigger on an external pump with the OC filter and venturi CO2 for some time now. How would you do it today if you were starting over? Wet/dry sump?


----------



## plantbrain

clwatkins10 said:


> Can you post a picture of the anubias cube tank? Has it grown any?


Yes, it was a Riccia tank at at the open house, I just let the Riccia infest and get tangled(never tied it once).

I am going to do something about the corkscrew Vals still. Fish load is stable ands where I want it(quite high). Lots of catfish and the bird beak elephant nose is a real hit. N nudiceps is a nice piggish group of fish.

I'd actually wanted to go a nice Syno Multi and Tropheus kaiser bebewa but I had trouble finding the grades I wanted under 20$ ea.

But I like Congos.......

This is just a shot, not some photoshoot which is rare for me, however, I did get a nice DSLR finally.










I removed all the Xmas moss, and Riccia and now have nothing but Fissidens and some Pellia(not much).

As the Bolbitus fills in, it's been blocking the Val's light, but I want to keep the front open. I'll likely just have some Vals in a less obvious location but where they do get some light. Not sure yet.

Nice thing is this tank is very easy to care for and looks good most any day. 
It's a bit like Amano's gaint tank, but about 50X smaller and African instead of SA.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

bsmith782 said:


> Nice, I have been trying to locate some farlowella's for quite a while now. Deff a good choice in a planted tank. Do you find them to be as useless for algea removal as most plecos are?


No, they are worthless for algae removal, they maw down on the foreground plants unless they are well root species.
Look great on the wood, easy to miss, love high current.
Eat like pigs.

I use a spirulina stick from a generic bulk feed breeder supply. 
Most all Fish love this stuff and it does not have MSG in it like Hikari and a few other brands(WTF?). 

I have another pleco I really in love with right now and very rare, looks almost as dramatic as the Zebra, and eats algae off broad leaves!

Lousy pic, I'll get betters ones later"









Regards, 
Tom Barr

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## bsmith

King Tiger?


----------



## plantbrain

shewey said:


> Well yes that was obvious, but my question was how much macro/micro and on what schedule.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mark


I dose when I feed the fish, every other day, macros and micros, sometimes micros daily(3-5x a week).

I add about 2 tsp of KNO3, 1 tsp of KH2PO4 each time for the macros, 60-70mls of Secret Blend of micros I developed(and some day should get around to selling to the vendors for retail sale) for the micros.

I add about 3 tsp of GH booster after every water change(60-70% weekly).
KH is 30ppm. Temp is anywhere from 82-85F

I use plain old Tap, but we have the ultimate source, Sierra snow melt. 
I add prime.

Tank has mazzei venturi, high current etc.
I ran into some issues as the filters clog, the venturi rate goes down due to less pressure on the output side of the filter, this reduces gas flow and dissolution. So I have to keep the filters clean:icon_redf Yes, taking my own CO2 advice:thumbsup: Another issue with the mazzei's is that if they get a leak, you cannot use the soapy water trick, they suck air/gas *in*, not expel it *out*. So filters need oversized and cleaned often, and the gas lines need over built.

As fish food is also nutrients, I consider it part as well, I feed as often as I can but small amounts and varied diet. Mostly live brine, frozen spirulina brine, Mysid shrimp, Blood worms, the spirulina dry sticks, crushed snails if I find any alive, a little flake. 

Nice thing is, I do not have to heat my home or add a humidifyer, the tanks and lighting do it for me. 

Stays about 68-72F most of the winter.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

shewey said:


> Well yes that was obvious, but my question was how much macro/micro and on what schedule.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mark


I do test here and there for answering more specifics for folks.
Mostly for KH, and leaching from fish/food waste and the sediment(ADA AS).
And when I do test, I do measure quite a few things and spend a few hours doing it.

I am not the spot tester. I have a box full of sciny vials I use to measure things over time and test all at once, not day to day week to week.
Then I'll use a nice spect and calibration solutions to take the measurements.
Then you graph the results out etc and get error bars and look for patterns.
I take a sample(a 10 second operation), then freeze it till later.

Bit more involved, but I ask questions that are pretty specific. Most every aquarist does not need to do this to keep a nice planted tank.

Still, I prefer time series when testing, not one sample from one point in time that's not been measured using a calibrated test method. Calibration takes time and work as well. So does dragging it out. But by simply freezing the water samples, I can put off doing a large batch all at once.
This greatly reduces errors, bias in sampling, testing methods/procedures, greatly reduces the labor per test and is much better time management. 

Some folks are just plain foolish about testing, thinking they need/must test day to day/every week etc. I'm more clever than that/too lazy, but it's not me that came up with that, it's many folks that do research long before me or anyone else here. Some hobbyists act as if they are the only people who have used test kits to dose nutrients and it's their idea or something:icon_roll

The trick is to learn enough to not have to do as much work.
That's what smart lazy folks do

Hard to argue with that.
Still, what is it that we really want to test?
Plants, aquarium stability, little if any algae presence, happy fish and critters.
The organisms themselves make excellent examples of "test kits".
I've found over the years, that those who watch organisms this way are the best and most successful. 

EI is a general method to do that, hardly my idea about serial partial dilutions nor is it my idea that I dose a certain amount of PPM based on a dry weight into a liquid. I just argue that it's an easy simple method to provide non limiting nutrients.

I have plenty of long term examples of the most sensitive fish and invertebrate species to counter any such health claims about the ppm's being "bad" or that higher than whatever they claim is "unethical", as well literature research references. 

Altums are just one more example:thumbsup:

And I'll just keep heaping on the evidence tank after tank, year after year.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

bsmith782 said:


> King Tiger?


No, it's a rarer pleco.
I've had L-333 and the queen's:
http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/L-Welse/Seiten/L 260.htm

Tere is this one which is also very nice:
http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/L-Welse/Seiten/L 66.htm

I've had these in some tanks, very nice fish.

But these are different.


I've got 5 of Chocolate zebras in my tanks and also in a client's:
http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/L-Welse/Seiten/L 204.htm

these do very well in planted tanks.

I'm not sure what this guy is, his markings are different and the form and behavior are as well.

Some of the larger species I have in a client's tank, they are 3-4 years old now and some are very dramatic.

I do not want them that large in my tanks, so I have chosen smaller species and likely need more caves in the back for them. I'll make a nice holey wood cave back in the rear of the tank to accommodate more hotels for them.

If they do not have a nice hiding spot of their own, it is very stressful on them.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Raul-7 said:


> It's been done, just not regularly.
> 
> http://www.archangelus.com/breedingaltums


I'm not getting my hopes up, if I see eggs...........I will remove them asap.
It will be a few months, years before they are good spawning size.
I have live brine so feeding fry is not an issue.

I am feeding similar foods and they have more room, better tap and other water quality parameters. They come running to the tank edge like rabid Rift Cichlids, not the shy sensitive fish folks have claimed them to be. Even my clients claim this, need live blackworms etc but why cannot I see this then?

Be sad though, if they did bred for me, the first angles I spawned where Altums?
:redface:

Would that convince folks that basic EI and good high CO2 are fine for even sensitive hard to bred species?

Probably not.
But my CRS are still fine and all at EI+ 79F temps with dwarf Botia, galaxy danios etc.

I'd like to have the royal farowellas bred or any of the rare plecos.
I'd be happier doing that than Altums actually.
Some of the S panamese I gave to a local club member bred them.
I have the S arueum.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CL

Thanks for the pics, Tom! The tank looks great!


----------



## MO3N

i just read through the hole thread and beautiful tank. looks amazing. i love the look of the bulk heads on the tank very clean looking. i had a few questions about it.

1) i saw on one of the posts you had a rena filter under one of the tanks. on the tanks were you use a normal canister (built in pump and everything) do you go for a rena filter or do you just use your fav filter brand?

2) when doing this with a normal canister do you go for a filter that you would put on the tank without the bulk heads (traditional spraybar) or do you go for a larger filter?

3) in a rectangular tank like yours is it better to have two inlets and two outlets and run two filters to get better flow or is just one on each end enough? or does it all depend on your filter of choice?

thanks


----------



## plantbrain

Yanked out a lot of plant biomass yesterday.
Who knew I had fish in here?

I planted mostly Gloss in a large field. Plecos promptly have gone after it, but I think it can grow in pretty good in 2-3 weeks if I keep after it and replant as they yank it up.

I think the design will look better with an open lower growing layout.
I have a Dutch style weed chocked cess pool for the 120, so there's not lack of difference if both look the same

I also have considered adding more blyxa as a low background plant along the back right side(1/2). But Tonia is nice.
I removed the pantanal, infernal weed, but folks like paying $ for it and like the red color. I added some to the 120 gal instead.

If I do the Tonia, it needs kept low and a nice dome shape.
I trim it about 2x a month. It has a nice look to it. Erio setaceum and Tonia manuas are a couple of others I have not home for, but I like the belem better than the manuas.

I added another 9 liters worth of ADA AS on the back to give the slope more rise and moved the AS in the front and pulled it back. I may adjust the slope in the rear some still. Also, might add some Rotala green in some spots and replace the Blyxa in some of the lower light regions under the wood.

I might forgo the HQI MH's altogether and lower the light fixture some.
I have 96W x 4 on here and using the PAR meter, it's pretty good and even lighting. I only run the HQI's for 5 hours anyway(10 for the PC's).

Later I can add more light, for now, the Gloss will do just fine for a coupel of weeks and then I can add more light if I want and see.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## NanoDan

*Thanks Tom*

Hi Tom, just wanted to say what a great job you did at the Sac Aquarium Society meeting Sat. night
Very inspiring demonstration of aquascaping. I was the guy you gave some Java fern to, I really appreciated that. Look forward to seeing and talking to you again.


----------



## bsmith

That Chocolate Zebra looks awesome, are they as expensive/hard to breed and find as their normal cousins?

Have you ever seen any starlight bristlenoses'?
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=221
I have a trio in my Anubis tank. They are very striking. 



plantbrain said:


> No, it's a rarer pleco.
> I've had L-333 and the queen's:
> http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/L-Welse/Seiten/L 260.htm
> 
> Tere is this one which is also very nice:
> http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/L-Welse/Seiten/L 66.htm
> 
> I've had these in some tanks, very nice fish.
> 
> But these are different.
> 
> 
> I've got 5 of Chocolate zebras in my tanks and also in a client's:
> http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/L-Welse/Seiten/L 204.htm
> 
> these do very well in planted tanks.
> 
> I'm not sure what this guy is, his markings are different and the form and behavior are as well.
> 
> Some of the larger species I have in a client's tank, they are 3-4 years old now and some are very dramatic.
> 
> I do not want them that large in my tanks, so I have chosen smaller species and likely need more caves in the back for them. I'll make a nice holey wood cave back in the rear of the tank to accommodate more hotels for them.
> 
> If they do not have a nice hiding spot of their own, it is very stressful on them.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

NanoDan said:


> Hi Tom, just wanted to say what a great job you did at the Sac Aquarium Society meeting Sat. night
> Very inspiring demonstration of aquascaping. I was the guy you gave some Java fern to, I really appreciated that. Look forward to seeing and talking to you again.


Thanks for coming out Dan, you might consider joining the local SAPS group.
We will meet Tues at Roundtable at Howe and Arden Way(7pm?).

Likely more about discussing a more formal organization, but other stuff will be there like plants.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, I've kept those for several years, very nice little pleco.

The Pleco I have in the other tank is not a King Zebra, Queen Arabseque etc(they have those there as well for a comparison). I spoke with the importer and he is going to ask if there's an L number associated with this one.

Really cool fish, I have 6 now
Ain't cheap either, but they do well.
We also might have a small red farowella that eats BBA according to George at Aqua Forest. Cute, they are well suited for the planted tank.
Any critter that eats BBA is welcomed.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

So I got 4 more Altums the same size and batch. So there will be a total of 11 fish.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## JDowns

plantbrain said:


> 60-70mls of Secret Blend of micros I developed(and some day should get around to selling to the vendors for retail sale) for the micros.


[SubliminalMessage]Start Selling It Already!!![/SubliminalMessage]


----------



## NanoDan

*SAPS meeting*

Tom is that meeting tonight? If so Ill try to make it if I get through voting in time lol.


----------



## plantbrain

Good deal, also, absentee ballots!
Sign up! Much much easier to vote this way!

Vote Plant!!!

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## James From Cali

I may attend the meeting tonight. I already voted as of 2-3 weeks ago via Absentee Ballot.


----------



## plantbrain

Sorry, no meet today!!!
See our mailing list


----------



## plantbrain

Well, bad news, I decided to yank all background plants out and replant, then add some more ADA AS. The Altums did not take it well. Fungus city. Lost 2.
Should have moved them to the 120 till things settled down, did a big water change before, should have done one right after and then again 1 days later, waited too long. Had perhaps 3/4 the of the plant biomass as before after the redo, all the other fish had no issues at all:icon_roll
I'm not very bright.:icon_redf

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## epicfish

Ouch, sucks to hear, Tom.


----------



## Rion

eek, that sucks.  I've crash a nano that way.


----------



## NATURE AQUARIUM

Sorry to hear that Tom.


----------



## plantbrain

Oh, every other fish is fine in the tank, just these guys, looks like I've managed to save a few.

Used Pimefix and Melafix 60-70% WC every other day, added some filler plants.

PITA.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## lauraleellbp

How'd they make out, Tom?

How's the tank doing now?


----------



## fishboy87

yeah, any updates? How's the glosso growing in?


----------



## plantbrain

Well, part of it has filled in well, the plecos still pick on the other 2/3rd of the tank so it's slow going still. Hair grass would have filled in better, but I wanted a different leaf shape.

It will be another month or two before it looks decent. Depends on how much replanting I have to do for the Gloss. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Those plecos are L 134's, lepoard frog plecos, really nice!
Very well suited for aquariums and breedable.
Same as for the Red whiptails.
Chocolate zebras also do very well and gold nugges obviously and the Royal farowella that keeps picking on all the foreground plants:icon_roll.

They are going to go in my other tank once I pull the other fish out for the client this Monday. I've had it

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## deleted_user_16

you are very good it seems with the fish choice, just they obviously like the tank a little TOO much 

if the glosso doesnt work out, may i recommend somthing? elatine triandra, super fast growing and looks kind of like hc, but bigger leaf pattern.


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, but they will get shedded really quick, it has root really really well. 
I have UG in there as well, it does okay, but will take a long time to fill in 4-5 sq ft, gloss not so long and has the right shape and ease of care.

I suppose I could test some Elatine. Will not hurt.

And it's a weed, nice color.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## cah925

I'm trying UG in my 75, just planted it last week so I'm still waiting to see how it does. I have Elatine triandra in one of my 40Bs and love it.


----------



## Martin

UG is a horrible plant.. totally unpredictable  
Whenever I planted it in a tank at work the UG seemed to evaluate my attention. If I ignore it completely, it grows like a baby on fire... if I fuss around it, making sure all conditions are in order.. it goes brown and dies.. You could grow UG more successfully like our old friend HC..emersed.. or at least partially emersed.


----------



## blue33

Hi Tom! Is temperature an issue when using Metal Halide? Whats your temperature like in your tank, do you use chiller to control the temperature at summer season? As the place i'm staying(Singapore), whole year through out is warm, around 28-33 Degree Celsius, people here normally get chiller to cool down the tank temperature. Would 28-33 Degree Celsius temperature good for plants growth and fauna? Thanks! :smile:


----------



## plantbrain

Martin said:


> UG is a horrible plant.. totally unpredictable
> Whenever I planted it in a tank at work the UG seemed to evaluate my attention. If I ignore it completely, it grows like a baby on fire... if I fuss around it, making sure all conditions are in order.. it goes brown and dies.. You could grow UG more successfully like our old friend HC..emersed.. or at least partially emersed.


It's not too bad for me.
Like some plants, you need to let them do their thing and then after they are well estbalished, then..............you can trim and control.

You need to let the plant roots get going in enough mass to control things in the aquarium. Then you can uproot a % without too much issue.

I took out a lot of biomass and roots(imporantly) and things did not do well until they where returned and established a again. No algae etc, but plant growth and fish health are not as good as with.

So the transition between lots of well established roots and new planting is the key it seems to me. The roots pump O2 and help the bacteria really get amplified.

This takes time, adding external O2 will not increase this process(hence the issue with Heating cables and Powersand claims..........), good plant health will, this is a plant driven internal plant related process, not something you can amplify. Some seem to assume you can(likely cause they spent their wad of cash on the product and are trying to rationalize their purchase), but there's no evidence that is in any way emperical (lots of faith based claims though) nor has there been in well over 30 years of claims.

I've seen the plant roots do this on numerous tanks. I've also used RFUG which adds a lot of O2 for over 10 years of use. Saw little difference. It just takes time for the roots to grow and good health(CO2/light/nutrients) and shoot growth are the only real factors that will increase the root growth. Plants allocate root growth/resources based on the production of sugars from the shoot, not from O2 additions.

Takes more than O2 to grow a root:thumbsup:
This is common sense.

I've seen it on this 180 as well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CL

So, any updates on this tank?


----------



## plantbrain

Well, Gloss is starting to take off a bit better, tank has righted itself well.

Removed most every part of the biomass and replanted and will go back to a similar design with different plants and more Blyxa.

Be a bit yet for new pics, tank needs to fill in and a few more trimmings before hand.

But it's doing well and I think I cleaned the inside of the glass back 3 months ago, maybe longer, so no algae issues or anything on the wood etc.

I switched to the disc diffusers with the same set rate as the mazzei venturi as an experiment. So far, with the mist traveling upo and into the 2000gph pump flow, it gets well distributed. Good current seems to suggest that the methods are relatively equal near as I can tell.

I do not lose the head pressure with the disc, but still have to have them in the tank and they require cleaning every so often(*I love Tilex), but so does the canister filter as it clogs and affects the mazzei flow rate.

So each CO2 method has a trade off.

As roughly 90% of the CO2 we add or more is lost to the air, I think there's less difference on methods and more is focused on mist and current as main predictors.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CL

So Tilex is tank safe?


----------



## Pinto

This is one incredible tank!!
Love your school of fishes


----------



## plantbrain

clwatkins10 said:


> So Tilex is tank safe?


Well, no more than bleach is:redface:
You wash it off good, then add dechlor and rinse and blow it out a few times before you return to the tank.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishsandwitch

Pictures?


----------



## plantbrain

fishsandwitch said:


> Pictures?


Wait till the tank is worthy of a picture

Regards, 
Tom barr


----------



## Crystalview

I saw this tank Tuesday. It looked wonderful. Mister perfection had to talk about the flaw of His ground cover not growing in evenly. I thought it was cute and very humble of him.
Looking at his tank in person gave me a much better feel of the tank. In the pictures you just can't get the 3D effect. Both of Tom's tanks in the living room have a tranquilly that is of simple design. It gave me idea's for changes in my tank. I was always concerned about not having enough plants or wood and such. But now I want to aim for the same tranquility, mine always seem so busy. Even with all 70 cardinals it's amazing in the way they school from one end of the tank to the other, lovely!

I also loved the wood he has in his 60 Cube West African. It seem more a center piece at this point.


----------



## seds

Looks AmAzInG Plant-brain //Tom!!!! It looked overstocked when I saw the list but it doesn't look overstocked at all in the photos. I one day plan a similar setup only with tiny barbs rather than characins. (Then again I have like 10 plans and each one requires at least 70 gallons)

I like the 60 gallon congo tetra one even better though. It looks extraordinarily unique.


----------



## fishboy87

plantbrain said:


> Wait till the tank is worthy of a picture


To be honest, it could be an empty tank or an algae swamp. Your tank has looked great and I'm sure it couldn't look so bad as to not be picture worthy. I mean, I post my tank pictures up and I think a picture of a pile of dirt would be more appealing


----------



## SleepySin

jaidexl said:


> Holy driftwood, plantman!


Hahahahaha.. that'll be my quote of the day :hihi:


----------



## CL

So, I did a search, but I can't find it. Did you have a total of 2800 gph of flow in this tank? I have a koralia 4 laying around, and I'm wondering if it'll be too much for my 40 breeder, and I'm wondering if I can run the k4 (1200 gph) then should I just get a 2213 to filter it instead of a 2217 or 2215?
Thanks Tom


----------



## plantbrain

Well, the tank got water finally after the move last night.

the tank now has 700gph for Canister filters, 2000gph as a maxi jet sure flow conversion, and a 400gph needle wheel.

My 120 has had the most issues, but it bouncing back after all the plants that got cooked sitting in the heat in buckets for 1-2 weeks.

From that tank, I'll move the Blyxa and others into this 180 gal again.

*I'm thinking about using HC again, but trying it without the DSM this time and comparing the two methods on the same tank with the same light etc.*

I placed the wood at a slightly different angle and added another piece and secured it much better this time. The filter is much simpler and easier to tend to also, I am able to use the Hydor heaters easily without leaking and Tee's and other odd fittings. 

I am using the old 18 month old+ ADA AS.
I am picking up a used Wet/dry and have a nice CPR 1200 gph overflow, which I might add at some point.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## macclellan

Nice to see the tank back on the up and up!



plantbrain said:


> *I'm thinking about using HC again, but trying it without the DSM this time and comparing the two methods on the same tank with the same light etc.*
> I am using the old 18 month old+ ADA AS.


I would think the old Aqu*i*soil is a hugely confounding uncontrolled variable.


----------



## CL

macclellan said:


> I would think the old Aqu*i*soil is a hugely confounding uncontrolled variable.


Why is the "i" bold?
I'm glad this tank is back up! That driftwood is too perfect.


----------



## eyebeatbadgers

clwatkins10 said:


> Why is the "i" bold?
> I'm glad this tank is back up! That driftwood is too perfect.


Ye of short memory.

I thought the same thing about the Aquisoil. The first go round you had more nutrients, not so much now. Also, bulb age will affect light output along with the water of course. 

Have fun with the HC, I've moved on from it. :redface:


----------



## billb

I'm looking forward to seeing this build iteration! Any thoughts on what wildlife the tank will contain? Will the needle wheel be plumbed in line with the filter?


----------



## macclellan

clwatkins10 said:


> Why is the "i" bold?


To highlight the inside joke. It's from a belovedly banned and metrosexual guy here, usernam *rick*-something or something.


----------



## CL

eyebeatbadgers said:


> Ye of short memory.
> 
> I thought the same thing about the Aquisoil. The first go round you had more nutrients, not so much now. Also, bulb age will affect light output along with the water of course.
> 
> Have fun with the HC, I've moved on from it. :redface:


Well, I remembered you spelling it wrong, but I thought that you were macclellan instead of ebb when you posted above haha.

The nutrients in aquasoil definitely do get used up, but I'm not sure if there is that much remaining nutrients in the aquasoil other than the powder that's in there when you first dump it in.

edit, hey mac


macclellan said:


> To highlight the inside joke. It's from a belovedly banned and metrosexual guy here, usernam *rick*-something or something.


I remember rick4him. Remember that big argument over the lily pipes? :hihi:


----------



## Gatekeeper

clwatkins10 said:


> I remember rick4him. Remember that big argument over the lily pipes? :hihi:


Flashbacks.... moderators worst nightmare.


----------



## CL

gmccreedy said:


> Flashbacks.... moderators worst nightmare.


ahahah :flick:
sorry about the slight hijack, Tom :icon_smil


----------



## tcampbell

> As roughly 90% of the CO2 we add or more is lost to the air, I think there's less difference on methods and more is focused on mist and current as main predictors.


 Is that true? 90% loss. wow. Only 10 % gets in there and it is that effective!


----------



## CL

Hey Tom, do you have any pictures of how the tank looks currently? You said you adjusted the wood a bit. 

I'm also wondering if you have added any plants yet? 

Maybe now that you are in a different place you can hang the light from the ceiling?


----------



## plantbrain

Hell froze over, about 28 inches of snow, wait, that's New Hell, also known as DC. 










Look how big my HC has become
If you look close, you can see the RCS and the royals on the wood. OI must have 300 RCS in here, I pull out the bland looking ones for selection for bloody reds.

Cards are big and fat, light is 2 w/gal, no HQI, nice not having those one really.
I have a bunch of P stellata I'll let fill out in the rear, was mostly L aromatica.

Might try some other easy to care for weed that likes current.
Not sure yet.

The Starou is a nice plant as you can see. Much easier than those damn weeds like HC/Gloss etc. Unlike smaller weeds, this one roots well and as you can see, those royals are good at munching and removing fine rooted delicate plants. Also makes a good place for the RSC to hide and make a go of it before getting eaten initially. There's a goldy toe pleco, and 3 big Chocolate emperor plecos, a P spinuosus, a pair of checkerboard cichlids, vampire pleco, and a dozen of so royal long fins farowellas (L filamentosa).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CL

Gotta love that tropica starougyne foreground. Looks really cool on such a big scale. The blyxa looks very happy, too.
You decided to put some moss on the wood, I see. 
Such an inspiration


----------



## hydrophyte

That looks fantastic.


----------



## plantbrain

The real joy is the fish and critter load, they are fat and happy.
the moss sort of did it's own thing, but I remove it time to time.
HC grown on top of the such moss mounds that break the surface.

Nice effect.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CL

After the past couple of years of hardly keeping any fish in my tanks, I'm starting to want some again. Cardinal tetras seem to add a nice effect. Those plecos are huge. Is there anything special you do to keep the bba off of the wood after all these months, or is it just a side effect of proper E.I. and water changes?


----------



## plantbrain

No issues ever with BBA in this tank.

Fish harass algae on the wood I suppose, 300 RCS likely get their fill, but they where not in here either.

BBA on wood or otherwise is awlays a CO2 related root issue.
Never seen otherwise and this has always fixed every and any tank I've had.
In some tanks, it's taken me awhile to getting around to solving the CO2 issue and BBA, but it's always been a CO2 issue.

I adjust CO2 slow and only when I am around to watch the effects, I do so slow and progressively. I do not really care too much about the algae, I know I can get rid of it. Some get impatient. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishsandwitch

The tank looks great!

How many RCS do you think live in the tank?

I ask because when I see larger tanks with RCS is seems like often the population of RCS is just barely holding on, about 20 RCS in the tank maybe(even after 6 months or a year)


----------



## CL

fishsandwitch said:


> The tank looks great!
> 
> How many RCS do you think live in the tank?
> 
> I ask because when I see larger tanks with RCS is seems like often the population of RCS is just barely holding on, about 20 RCS in the tank maybe(even after 6 months or a year)


I think he said there are about 300 in there. I couldn't imagine how many there would be if he didn't cull his colony every so often :icon_surp


----------



## plantbrain

I drain about 80-90% of the tank to cull and replant.
This spooks the RCS out of the rear to the front.
I use a modified turkey baster to extract them. 

With some skill/experience, it's makes quick work. When you refill the tank, they all run all over the place and can be nabbed.

Then I sell the culls at 1$ each. So it's about 30-50 shrimp a month.
Plants go for 3-4 $ a stem. Light is low, and the labor required is also low.

Sustainable tank farm that looks okay and no testing needed or much work involved.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## EdTheEdge

Absolutely stunning! roud:roud:roud:


----------



## plantbrain

Need to whack the Blyxa back even further, uproot and replant to keep it lower. The back is still in the grow in phase as is the left side in general. Lots of current and the wood blocks a lot of light. Back ground will be mostly P stellata eventually, it'll take another 1-2 months worth of trim, grow out for it to look somewhat where I like. 
I may switch back to Tonina. Both do well in current. The Starougyne responds well to pruning. I pinch off the tops, about 1-2" down, leave the rest still rooted. On higher clumps, I'll thin and take most of the larger dominate stems. Then the other stem tips fill in. This was less than a week after I removed about 70 plants. So it looks fairly good not long afterwards. Nothing is worse than a foreground trim/plant etc that looks bad for a long time after wards. I tend to try and hack the plant in the front more aggressively, trying to keep it a safe distance from the front glass. The plants will fill back in those spots in the front in about 2-3 weeks. 
Cardinals and other critters are happy, frisky, well feed, eat most anything. 

Sorry for the point and shoot photos, I may actually do a real photo shoot someday. This tank is admittedly a long way away from any of that.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## kyle3

lovely, clean and professional as always Tom! nice tank.

cheers-K


----------



## plantbrain

kyle3 said:


> lovely, clean and professional as always Tom! nice tank.
> 
> cheers-K


Actually the glass is filthy, and far from clean. I think you cannot see some of it, but there's some serious smudgs and water lines.

Just normal care. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## VadimShevchuk

> Actually the glass is filthy, and far from clean. I think you cannot see some of it, but there's some serious smudgs and water lines.


o please, your tank is beautiful. I will only dream of having one like that.


----------



## AlexXx

wow, i love this tank!


----------



## plantbrain

VadimShevchuk said:


> o please, your tank is beautiful. I will only dream of having one like that.


Well, I have not wiped the glass in a few weeks, used glass cleaner, trimmed up any details, reflections, fuzzy, plants over grown, not filled in, no white background etc, trimming and plant selection in the rear has issues, pumps and equipment all left in the tank, should have done a water change this morning, could have waited for the plecos to mosey out and the CRS etc, should have used an over head flash.

It's still a work in progress, but if the tank looks decent on any given day, then that's good also.

I only see some people's tanks for contest photos etc.
But day to day look is something different.
Harder to keep that up.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ChineseSnooker

I really enjoy the transition from foreground to mid-ground, very clean!


----------



## R33 GTR

what plants si in the foreground looks interesting


----------



## TickleMyElmo

Man, that's just awesome  I love the partly covered driftwood as well.....


----------



## legomaniac89

Absolutely stunning. Tom, you are the master


----------



## accordztech

how the heck did that HC get that big? I never seen that before.


----------



## FSM

It isn't HC


----------



## plantbrain

accordztech said:


> how the heck did that HC get that big? I never seen that before.


Ahaha, got one person

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## !shadow!

lol... funny stuff


----------



## gogreen

FSM said:


> It isn't HC


what is it then?! :icon_conf


----------



## accordztech

plantbrain said:


> Ahaha, got one person
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


:flick:

haha


----------



## Jeff5614

gogreen said:


> what is it then?! :icon_conf


Staurogyne sp 049G. A nice little plant.

http://www.tropica.com/article.asp?type=aquaristic&id=864


----------



## plantbrain

accordztech said:


> :flick:
> 
> haha


Good thing you are not a sour puss and have a sense of humor.:biggrin:

I guess it does look more like "giant" Elatine triandra.

The joke was I use to have HC growing in here:

















But I left for 2 weeks to Europe, and a power outage and 100F+ temps for 4 days left the HC ....well, less than desirable looking. I tried many times to reintroduce the HC. Royals kept pulling it up no matter how diligent I was.

I tried a number of other plants, but few where suitable.

This Staurogyne sp 049G was nice, better than the Dwarf hygro porto velho
Roots betetr and is tighter.

The porto velho is in another tank:

















It's a nice plant, but provides more room under the canopy for larger fish to romp around.

This plant in the 180 however, is only suitable for small shrimp like the pack of 300-400 RCS.

I never thought they'd make it, the Cards and other fish could certainly eat them if they chose to. But the RCS and the fish do not mind one another the least bit.

Better than snails.
Breed as fast and worth more too. 

This tank could have some different fish and breed more etc, but the plants and RCS pay for the electrical cost pretty good. 

I have to pull out about another 50-100 plants this week, whack the Blyxa back and trim some more, should not take too long. After that, I should be offering some more of it to folks in the swap mart forum. I donated 20$ to TPT also, not a bad thing to do if you make any significant amount of $ off the trades/sales etc.

Most sites lose $, but we all benefit.
So we can give back some using plant dollars.roud:



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## billb

Hey Tom,

I love the tank. I have a 90 gallon with Ember tetras and "c" grade CRS. Similar concept. I am interested in swapping out my HC and I look forward to seeing more of your Staurogyne sp 049G for sale. Making a donation to help support TPT is a good idea. You should see if you can make that a criteria for selling your next batch. I would be happy to donate $20 to TPT in addition to your sale price.

Bill


----------



## Crystalview

I had seen, I think the 90 set up in your old spare room and it was struggling and had knat. Can HC be easy or you have had bad luck with it this last year?
I hope I am around when you divide the Staurogyne sp


----------



## plantbrain

Did a big hack, removed 70% of the Blyxa, mostly under the arm of the wood is the only place it's left, expanded the Staruo out.

I think it would make a decent monoculture, for stone or wood.
I really do not wanna do that for this tank.

P stellata is growing in pretty thick and looking better.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CL

Tom, what is that beautiful pinkish plant in the second picture in post #504?


----------



## LondonDragon

The Staurogyne sp foreground is Excelent, is my HC or Glosso fails that will be my next foreground plant, I have a carpet of Fissidens Fontanus in my 60cm low tech tank


----------



## rick4him

macclellan said:


> To highlight the inside joke. It's from a belovedly banned and metrosexual guy here, usernam *rick*-something or something.


IT's rick4HIm - and the Him is God..I'm for God... Just thought I'd help you out..


----------



## CL

here's a blast from the past.
How are you posting if you're banned? Did you make a new account recently that got banned as well?


rick4him said:


> IT's rick4HIm - and the Him is God..I'm for God... Just thought I'd help you out..


well, you sure didn't act like it.


----------



## fishsandwitch

banned but posting?
A divine intervention!


----------



## Gatekeeper

Issue resolved. carry on, nothing to see here. LMAO!


----------



## !shadow!

huh? what? *looks around* what's going on here?


----------



## FDNY911

lol ^ ... back to topic ... WOW. I would pay to see your 180 Tom lol. I havent seen a Rimless tank of that size before, is it sold that way or custom ordered? If you mentioned it earlier forgive me, I have been skimming through. SUBSCRIBED.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

I believe Tom mentioned on the first page that it is custom made.


----------



## plantbrain

Gatekeeper said:


> Issue resolved. carry on, nothing to see here. LMAO!


Oh admit it, you had a "mod" crush on him:tongue:










Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## macclellan

rick4him said:


> IT's rick4HIm - and the Him is God..I'm for God... Just thought I'd help you out..


I must admit I just got some satisfaction knowing that it was my post that incited RickLaden out of the ban-cave. :hihi:
Thank goodness he's crawled back in though.


----------



## plantbrain

Added more Cards, they have fattened up and are doing well, The old Little Giant WMD 4SC finally died, took the motor apart, had gotten some rust on the inside bushings. Replaced it it with a new pump, but will fix and donate the old pump to a club etc.

Have an Iwaki, might switch it.
The 2x300W hydor heaters are not good enough to keep the temps up.
Had to finally use a stick in addition to keep it at 82-83F.

Would like to get a Tek 16 x 39W 72" hood and use the outside 2 pairs only(312w vs 384w). The new Cree LED's are getting 160 lumens per watt now........be nice if they had some nice systems ready in the next 1-2 years that could be adjusted with a dial for intensity and color spread.

As mentioned, the temp dropped, and then I ramped it up to deal with the aftermath of ick, ran to about 88-90F and the Starourgyne started to lose leaves for about 1-2 weeks, then stopped.

Still looks full ...even though.

Fire red shrimp have been fine.

A few minor bumps, changes etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## !shadow!

looking good,do you plan on attaching more plants to the dw or leaving it exposed like it is now?


----------



## chris.rivera3

any updates Tom??? new pictures?


----------



## plantbrain

I've whacked the Starou a lot lately, still have a few hundred plant cuttings to go. I'm letting the Tonia fill in the back, keeping the blyxa whacked down.

Trying some different methods of trimming the Starou.

Will post some pics in the next two or so days on the topic of trim methods, these same methods can be applied at a smaller scale to HC, gloss and some others, but it is better illustrated with Starou.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Da Plant Man

Just read it; 1 hour of well spent time. GREAT JOB!


----------



## plantedpufferfreak

still trying to learn my plants... what is that in the front. in the foreground?
Its beautiful! i want that to be my groundcover! 

Your tank is AMAZING!


----------



## globali

Small world, I met your name in 
Israel reading a thread about the
dry method, your work is inspiring.


----------



## plantbrain

I've since thinned out the blyxa and the Starougyne has grown up taller and I'm trimming it to slope front to back. I'm also growing out more S. "belem" and only have a little P stellata on the far left. I've added some H garderi and R wallichii and some red pantanal, all of which grow much slower in this tank which is really nice. Not sure where they will end up, like them, they do well in high current etc, but scape vs the plants I want, the age old quandary.

I'll post some new pics of the trimming process for the Starougyne, there's a few things that make it really nice and can be applied to smaller foreground plants.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## MPevine11

amazing looking tank!


----------



## Gatekeeper

Looks good Tom. Very simple. 

I am not a fan of the driftwood moss "fingertipping", but to each his own. I believe that it detracts from the body of the scape, but that is a personal preference.


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, I'm not a fan of moss tips either, it's gotten attached on it's own actually.
Then HC grew on top of that, so I have these mossy HC mats, but they are sold and added to other aquariums later, shrimp love them also. 

At some point, they will be removed.

I like the wood more that weeds covering it, Karen Randall does not like the mossy tips either, says it looks like the Lorax trees in the Cat in the Hat, I agree.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Folks have asked me a fair amount about the trimming methods.
This is 1 week after a big hack, it'll be looking nice in about 2-3 weeks again. 




























Just some pics of the Starougyne being trimmed and the post grow out, the new sprouts come off the stem stumps.
These later fill in dense like in the background without ever uprooting the plant.

You can thin the plant groups individually by trimming out the tallest plants and letting the others fill in the gaps also, this works better than this method shown above.
The method shown above is done when there's a significant lull in trimming or simnply neglecting to trim more often.

This looks ugly for 2-3 weeks, but fills right back in and is low once again and can then be maintained more frequently via thinning versus mowing.
I'd not trim it to aggressively down, leave some stumps to sprout, it will stay low this way and not just continue to grow up. You can make mounds and larger shapes if you trim it right, it fills in dense as you can see to whatever shape.
Also, it makes an excellent refuge for smaller fry and shrimp since few fish can get into the dense forest below the leaves.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Martin

Hi Tom.

Can you post tank stats? 

light, litres(gallons), and your fert regime?


----------



## FSM

How often do you trim it?




Martin said:


> Hi Tom.
> 
> Can you post tank stats?
> 
> light, litres(gallons), and your fert regime?


Look at the first post.


----------



## plantbrain

Pics of the cards, Royals(Sturisoma) and the Shrimp if you look.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## chris.rivera3

Tom that looks amazing!!! the 049 looks amazing as a foreground plant too!!! how many cards do you have schooling in there?


----------



## Centromochlus

Amazing pictures, Tom! I especially like the first one. Your tank looks great.


----------



## thief

Wow that is pretty incredible. Tom, I think you should place that first picture in your banner! Curious, how old would you say you had your cardinals? I would also like to know what kind of diet are they getting!


----------



## plantbrain

These are about 1 year old or so, far from being the older cards nor are they full sized yet.

I lost most of the older ones when I moved, then had an unknown disease wipe out a batch. Another batch was treated the same way, I lost 1 out of 300+. the other batch I lost all but 1%. Nothing I could do, I quarantined them, hit them with all sorts of drugs, temps, UV, water changes daily etc.

Nothing worked.

This batch is bullet proof.

It's the batch/how they where handled perhaps etc, not the aquarist. Been through this dice roll a dozen or more times.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## arktixan

Thats truly amazing... only if I had the room/space I would do something like that.. I would LOVE a nice tank with Cards or even Neons.


----------



## plantbrain

Post trim grow out of the Starougyne always amazes me, this plant just gets nicer and nicer.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Another week later.


Regards,
Tom Barr


----------



## AkCrimson

I love this tank, Tom. "Envy" is an understatement!


----------



## CL

Wow, Tom. You're right. It does keep looking better. It's like a big pillow of hc on steroids.


----------



## blackandyellow

plantbrain said:


> These are about 1 year old or so, far from being the older cards nor are they full sized yet.
> 
> I lost most of the older ones when I moved, then had an unknown disease wipe out a batch. Another batch was treated the same way, I lost 1 out of 300+. the other batch I lost all but 1%. Nothing I could do, I quarantined them, hit them with all sorts of drugs, temps, UV, water changes daily etc.
> 
> Nothing worked.
> 
> This batch is bullet proof.
> 
> It's the batch/how they where handled perhaps etc, not the aquarist. Been through this dice roll a dozen or more times.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Some fish are sooo difficult to get to survive... yesterday I lost a hatchetfish that jumped out through my 5cm hole while I was feeding them. Even though he was out of the water less than 3 seconds he just died the day after... I was so dissapointed...

Your tanks are an inspiration. Truly AWESOME. Would be great to see a slideshow of all your tanks :icon_mrgr


----------



## plantbrain

blackandyellow said:


> Some fish are sooo difficult to get to survive... yesterday I lost a hatchetfish that jumped out through my 5cm hole while I was feeding them. Even though he was out of the water less than 3 seconds he just died the day after... I was so dissapointed...
> 
> Your tanks are an inspiration. Truly AWESOME. Would be great to see a slideshow of all your tanks :icon_mrgr


Well, Plant folks can overlook the fish or feeding them well, good current, good general fish care habits in their quest for planted gardens.

The Fish only folks are too scared to dose for the plants(same for those too scare of algae), so they have their own issues.

All my tanks are full of fish.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

The goldy toe came out and posed and did not run this time.



















Time to Mow the lawn.

I switched out the P stellataus for the curly Ech vevesius and more Blyxa, opens the tank up more and allows me to see the cards better, better current also and no trimming much.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CL

You keep taking out more blyxa and putting more stauro in it's place. Next thing you know this tank will be all staurogyne haha. It really does look great against that wood.


----------



## Jason Baliban

Needs more cards>

Love that foreground Tom!

jB


----------



## the planter

wow your tank looks stunning


----------



## 2wheelsx2

plantbrain said:


> The goldy toe came out and posed and did not run this time.



Is that an L14 (Scobiancistrus aureatus)? Very nice....


----------



## plantbrain

Jason Baliban said:


> Needs more cards>
> 
> Love that foreground Tom!
> 
> jB


At 320, healthy, eating out of my hands......they do eat a fair amount of foods. I have one green neon and a sunken belly in the batch, but catching them is tough. By opening up the plant gardening part with shorter, less prune needy weeds, the school moves around nicer. Flow is higher, so they are forced to swim. So they eat better.

I've tried a few different plants in this high flow section, nothing looked that good that was also access easy to trim.
Tonina did very well, Crypts became weedy over time, but I think the Ech will do good since it only gets 12" or so high.
I can prune the runners easy enough and ti opened up a spot in another tank for the Tonina. It looks better with good frequent pruning for scapes IME. 
I had access to the front and rear at my old place, but only the front at the new house.



And yes, that is a Scobiancistrus aureatus, one of the top fav fish. Not cheap. I have 6 P leopardus(mean suckers), 3 Chocolate emperor, an old Vampire, 7 royals(the Lamon's would get stuck in the Starourgyne, they where removed after loosing a couple this way, replaced with very hungry active nice tank raised Sturisomas, the original plan). These royals eat super! So they will do well, I found a couple of fry one day, but they got eaten. 
I might add a few more goldy toes and remove the P leopardus, they tend to be a bit more aggressive, goldy's get large, but the rate of growth is slow. I also have gold nuggets, Zebras, A andontis satans.....Schree ball, Black Vampires, ottos of course.......but these latters are in 2 other tanks.

I feed a lot of brine, spirulina sticks from a breeder supply place (no MSG etc), the sticks are super!
Sometimes deshelled peas, shrimp ...mashed, flies, bugs around the house, pumpkin/squash rind every so often, mashed live snails, mysis shrimps.
Color tetra flake 2x a day, brine and the other 2x a day when I'm around to feed them.






Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Barbels

Tom,
How long does it take to scrape this tank? I mean cleaning the inside of the glass.
Sorry if it's already been asked.


----------



## plantbrain

Barbels said:


> Tom,
> How long does it take to scrape this tank? I mean cleaning the inside of the glass.
> Sorry if it's already been asked.


Cleaning glass?
Maybe once every 3-4 months?
I rarely clean glass.

Don't need to roud:


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## chris.rivera3

Hey Tom, I'm just curious:

1) is this a LeeMar or a Glasscages tank???
2) what type of wood is that??? it doesn't look like manzanita


----------



## plantbrain

It's a crap GC, they did a lousy job cutting the front panel, really bad IMO.

LeeMar is top grade for a nice custom open top, beautiful. We did a 450 Gal with starfire and it was just as pretty as could be. I'll sell this tank in the future and get a LeeMar for a replacement and then have Jon's brother make some ADA like stands for it.

LeeMar are not cheap, but they do good work, there's also a guy in Long Beach that does the rimless customs that has the nicer seams and beveled edge work. Charlie and the Fish Tank Factory, nice guy.

Glaizers in the USA are skittish about building tanks, I guess they have too much work already?? Must be tough. They make them in Europe without too much issue it seems.

Wood is Western cedar pulled from the Eel river.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## 2wheelsx2

I'm surprised with so many plecos that you don't have any problems with the foreground. My 125 has 40+ plecos in it (Royal Panaque, Blue and Green Phantoms, Pseudas including L114 and L273) and they tear up anything I plant in the substrate except in the corners.


----------



## plantbrain

2wheelsx2 said:


> I'm surprised with so many plecos that you don't have any problems with the foreground. My 125 has 40+ plecos in it (Royal Panaque, Blue and Green Phantoms, Pseudas including L114 and L273) and they tear up anything I plant in the substrate except in the corners.


It's the type, Panaques are known decimators.
Maybe babies or a white sand foreground, they also gnaw wood like mad.

Starou roots aggressively.

So that's one reason it made the grade in this tank, good rooting, HC? Nope.
They ripped it up.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## malaybiswas

This tank is like a dream come true.

Tom. How long did it take for the starougyne to fill up the space?


----------



## Lycosa

Just amazing Tom.. really. /Bow


----------



## 2wheelsx2

plantbrain said:


> It's the type, Panaques are known decimators.
> Maybe babies or a white sand foreground, they also gnaw wood like mad.
> 
> Starou roots aggressively.
> 
> So that's one reason it made the grade in this tank, good rooting, HC? Nope.
> They ripped it up.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Thanks Tom. Yes, I have a love/hate relationship with the wood gnawing. I like my wood clean, but I have to gravel vac a lot to clean off the debris.

The Starou sounds like a good idea, and yes, even with my Hypancistrus, HC is not tolerated. I've tried 3 times in different tanks (CO2 and Florabase, Excel and Eco-complete twice). Now to find some of that stuff locally.


----------



## plantbrain

I'm hacking today, so if you want some, I'll try

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## 2wheelsx2

plantbrain said:


> I'm hacking today, so if you want some, I'll try
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I do, but I'm up in Canada, so probably a big hassle to ship it.


----------



## Harry Muscle

2wheelsx2 said:


> I do, but I'm up in Canada, so probably a big hassle to ship it.


Not much help right now, but in a few months I should have some Staurogyne for sale and I'm in located in Canada so no issues with shipping across the border, etc. Based on my several month long search for this stuff in Canada, it seems I might be the first person to actually get this stuff into the country (or at least the first person who uses the internet also  ).

Feel free to PM me in about 3 or 4 months or keep an eye out for my for sale thread, most likely on GTAAquaria. I'm waiting for it to grow enough to have some for sale.

Thanks,
Harry


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Cool, thanks Harry. You should join BCAquaria.com and post up a for sale there. I'm sure the guys on the west coast here would buy from you as no one has it, like you said.


----------



## plantbrain

I might be in Vanco this Sept, I'll be in Seattle for a talk and might do another there in BC.

I can bring some then.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Danh Vu

Your tank is legendary and you are truly an inspiration.

Hmm... I wonder how much you have made so far selling culls and trimmings.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

plantbrain said:


> I might be in Vanco this Sept, I'll be in Seattle for a talk and might do another there in BC.
> 
> I can bring some then.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


That would be awesome, not only for the plants, but for the talk. Post up on BCAquaria so we can get the membership out if it's an open talk.


----------



## plantbrain

2wheelsx2 said:


> That would be awesome, not only for the plants, but for the talk. Post up on BCAquaria so we can get the membership out if it's an open talk.


Ask the local club in Vanco, it's a train ride north there.
I'm staying with Erik Olson (of theKrib.com) and his family in WA and am speaking at their local club.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Danh Vu said:


> Your tank is legendary and you are truly an inspiration.
> 
> Hmm... I wonder how much you have made so far selling culls and trimmings.


More than I thought, want to by 100 plants next week? 100$ shipped. :icon_cool

Stuff was 10$ per stem when I got it.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CL

Tom, did you originally get the stauro direct from Tropica, have it imported, or find someone in a local club or something that had some?


----------



## plantbrain

Bought a few stems at a LFS but they grow it much slower etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CL

plantbrain said:


> Bought a few stems at a LFS but they grow it much slower etc.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Ah, I forgot that some people have LFS :hihi:


----------



## VincentK

This tank is very cool, I like all the plants and fish in it, I also like how clean that wood looks, everything fits in very good.


----------



## Da Plant Man

Update!


----------



## AoxomoxoA

I 2nd that emotion:biggrin:


----------



## Loubard

I red every page in this thread. Thank you for sharing Tom. I am really a big fan of wood shaping and I love this tank. Not a fan of the cardinals (for my taste they make the tank to busy), but the scape has really progressed. Great switch away from the HC, it looks much better without it imo. 

Also love the 60 cube with the congo's and mormyrid(s), the wood shaping in that one is once again fantastic. I am sure the pictures (although they are good  ) don't do those tanks much justice.


----------



## plantbrain

The real judge is what the owner sees.
Nothing else matters that much to me.
Probably why I'm never going to be a judge as well:thumbsup:
Thankless no paid job.

Still, video would be nicer as more and more folks get into tthat vs say just photographs, then you can see more live action and how the fish behavior reacts/interacts with the ecosystem, which is more about Nature and Ecology is all about anyway.

I've been hacking a lot and the tank responds very well to repeated aggressive hacks. I'm down to about 4 plant species now, likely going to end up with 2-3.

I have the trade off of trimming and selling the cutting vs having a nice looking scape. I can prune very nicely and have it all grow back in nicely or have 1/3 look ragged for a 1-2 weeks till the next hack begins.
Cardinals look pretty nice in this tank, which most say looks a lot larger in person than in the pics. 

The Congos are a bit large for the 60 Gal these days, about as big as I've seen any and vicious.










You can easily see the difference where I trimmed in this pic.


----------



## AoxomoxoA

Wow Tom, even with the trimming it's just amazing...

6' of 049? Wow... & it looks beautiful even half mowed :icon_lol:

I love Blyxa, & i _really _love the simpilicity. Just curious, why did you lose the background plants?

A video of all your different catfish/cichlid etc. schools would be nice.


----------



## Da Plant Man

WOW! That is a amazing tank! But in the back behind the driftwood I would add a stem plant or something (but again, its your tank, and your the judge) but thats just me (and maybe dirtyhermit). I can't wait for my 75g rimless.


----------



## chris.rivera3

plantbrain said:


> The real judge is what the owner sees.
> Nothing else matters that much to me.


I COMPLETELY agree...



plantbrain said:


> Still, video would be nicer as more and more folks get into tthat vs say just photographs, then you can see more live action and how the fish behavior reacts/interacts with the ecosystem, which is more about Nature and Ecology is all about anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can easily see the difference where I trimmed in this pic.


Tom any chance you can post a video of the tank? I'd love to see the movement and interaction of the cardinals


----------



## plantbrain

Well, I have a cheapo underwater video camera, I might post a youtuber.
But..........I just trimmed about 200 stems out of the mat.

I have to prune it no matter what, but least I get paid well to do it
200-400$ per month since Feb, not a bad $ for a weed or a scape.

Not many scapes do that plus look decent, let alone have the fish load and the breeding events.

I might get a decent Sony HD video camera, Erik from the AGA has motivated me to go video. Still, I'd like to wait till the new growth fills in and is not too over grown.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

dirtyhermit said:


> Wow Tom, even with the trimming it's just amazing...
> 
> 6' of 049? Wow... & it looks beautiful even half mowed :icon_lol:
> 
> I love Blyxa, & i _really _love the simpilicity. Just curious, why did you lose the background plants?
> 
> A video of all your different catfish/cichlid etc. schools would be nice.


PITA to trim.
More flow and place for the fish to swim.
Accents the wood more also.

I added some Green gecko in the rear and some Hydrothrix gardeni.
I'll likely thin the Blyxa, it's pretty weedy, but that's its role here.

Stem plants get blasted, I have over 4000 gph moving through the tank, so they have to handle that current as well.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## chris.rivera3

plantbrain said:


> Well, I have a cheapo underwater video camera, I might post a youtuber.
> But..........I just trimmed about 200 stems out of the mat.
> 
> I have to prune it no matter what, but least I get paid well to do it
> 200-400$ per month since Feb, not a bad $ for a weed or a scape.
> 
> Not many scapes do that plus look decent, let alone have the fish load and the breeding events.
> 
> I might get a decent Sony HD video camera, Erik from the AGA has motivated me to go video. Still, I'd like to wait till the new growth fills in and is not too over grown.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


A video is a video to me regardless of the vessel used to capture the movement...I always expect to see your mat trimmed since you sell so frequently....hopefully you get that HD video camera soon because i'm looking forward to the video and all 4000 gph movement :red_mouth


----------



## CL

plantbrain said:


> I have to prune it no matter what, but least I get paid well to do it
> 200-400$ per month since Feb, not a bad $ for a weed or a scape.


I think I need to up my production.

I think it's safe to say that this tank has entered the legendary phase.


----------



## inkslinger

Well your tank is all some. But would like to see the equipment under the cabinet? I have a 110g tank and a 1 inch line and 2 returns , I do have elbows and some Wye's I have to get rid of , I'm running a Blue-Line 55 HD pump and have 2 leg's one to the Mazzie and another to my Nu-Clear 533-547 and bottle neck back both ends to 2 returns!
My problem I have is that the water temp is staying 88F-90F all the time! I think once I separate the Mazzie and the Filters too there own returns it should drop the temp down some. Just need to get some picks to get idea's of what I should be doing, Thanks.


----------



## Cuchulainn

SwEEt tank Tom!:drool:


----------



## The Plantman

Tom, do you use UV sterilizers or any other gizmos? I mean what is connected to this tank besides heaters, lights and pressure Co2?


----------



## Da Plant Man

Update....now.


----------



## plantbrain

The Plantman said:


> Tom, do you use UV sterilizers or any other gizmos? I mean what is connected to this tank besides heaters, lights and pressure Co2?


_Magic._

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Caton said:


> Update....now.


Sorry, not much of a photo shoot, more just point and shoot, have not trimmed the star in 3 weeks.











Rarely show the top:










Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

inkslinger said:


> Well your tank is all some. But would like to see the equipment under the cabinet? I have a 110g tank and a 1 inch line and 2 returns , I do have elbows and some Wye's I have to get rid of , I'm running a Blue-Line 55 HD pump and have 2 leg's one to the Mazzie and another to my Nu-Clear 533-547 and bottle neck back both ends to 2 returns!
> My problem I have is that the water temp is staying 88F-90F all the time! I think once I separate the Mazzie and the Filters too there own returns it should drop the temp down some. Just need to get some picks to get idea's of what I should be doing, Thanks.


That's due to the pump transfer of the heat, if you use a plastic extension on the impeller housing, then this is reduced greatly.

Iwaki's have this option.

Most pumps seem to have them right next to the housing and this transfers, but also cools, the pump. I do not use a mazzie, I use a needle wheel, more consistent really. I used 2 hydors but they are not able to heat the tank in the winter, so I added a ti 500 w stick discretely. We never turn the heat on in the house(tanks keep the place about 62-68F in CA), but the temp hits 110 F in the summer, so cooling is harder.

I will switch to a wet dry for multiple reasons and sell this tank, light, and stand, then upgrade once we move. Will go with an ADA like stand, a wet dry, and hang on prefilter.

This is better over all for O2, cleaning(much easier), simplicity, surface scum, less energy for the pump(about 1/2 the energy demand) etc. T5 lighting will upgrade, so these plus a nice Lemar tank with nice beveled clean lines will help achieve a nicer look/performance , energy use and better home for fish.

I have an extra 375 UV Ocean clear filter for sale if folks are interested in good shape.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## nerdyjon

How did you do the top?

Did you cover it with soil?


----------



## sam22sam

Hi Tom,

Amazing tank (stating the obvious :icon_excl). I have never seen so many cardinals in one tank, till now all the forums.

The tank is a 180 gallon tank and I think you mentioned 320 cardinals alone in the tank. That would mean about 620 inches of fish in cardinals alone in a 180 gallon tank. How does that work? Dont the fish get stressed out? The rule of thumb is I believe 1 inch of fish per gallon of water from what I have read so far.


----------



## plantbrain

nerdyjon said:


> How did you do the top?
> 
> Did you cover it with soil?


No, I did nothing, it just started with some moss, and HC, then has evolved over time and now has the starou, just attached as a piece here or there fragments off, then roots on the wood.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

sam22sam said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Amazing tank (stating the obvious :icon_excl). I have never seen so many cardinals in one tank, till now all the forums.
> 
> The tank is a 180 gallon tank and I think you mentioned 320 cardinals alone in the tank. That would mean about 620 inches of fish in cardinals alone in a 180 gallon tank. How does that work? Dont the fish get stressed out? The rule of thumb is I believe 1 inch of fish per gallon of water from what I have read so far.


They are larger than 1 inch.
They are very fat. I also have 6 P. leopardus, S. auratus, 8 S aruerum, 400 or more RCS, 25-40 Amano shrimp, 4 Chocolate zebra plecos, 1 vampire pleco, 3 checkerboard cichlids, maybe 15 otto cats?

Fish are fine and all eat like pigs and are very healthy.
I've bred the S aruerum 5 times now and have some fry, they 4 larger ones are all F1's. 

I have 1200gph pump, and then 400gph needle wheel(on during the day only) and 3000 gph VorTech wave machine. Large 80% weekly water change, good stable CO2 etc, open scape so the water mixes well and few low flow spots. This means good ample CO2 and .......good ample O2 as well.

Too many planted tanks lack flow and good O2 24/7.
Many simple do not have any fish:icon_idea

Not hard to be a good scaper without fish?
But *are you a good aquarist*?

Can you master the fish, the scape and plant design?
That raises the bar.


----------



## Da Plant Man

plantbrain said:


> Can you master the fish, the scape and plant design?
> That raises the* bar*.


More like the "Barr"!


Hahahahahaha! Awesome tank Mr. Barr.


----------



## Betta Maniac

As so often happens on this site, I have lust and envy deep in my heart . . .


----------



## plantbrain

Betta Maniac said:


> As so often happens on this site, I have lust and envy deep in my heart . . .


Then pursue the passion, it's not all abut plants after all.
I've not met many that are not drawn into this hobby without first being drawn by the fish.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## NickWayn

WOW
What a beautiful tank!

Love it .. love it so much... 
Happy New Year.

Henry


----------



## dewalltheway

plantbrain said:


> Then pursue the passion, it's not all abut plants after all.
> I've not met many that are not drawn into this hobby without first being drawn by the fish.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


This is so true Tom. Even though I didn't have aquariums while I was a kid, my neighbor had one that I really enjoyed. I have always wanted to have an aquarium and when I first started out in 2006, I started out with just fish. It wasn't till I found this site that I got into the live plants which just enhanced the aquarium.

Tom, your tank looks great! Hope you and your family have a wonderful new year in 2011!


----------



## Da Plant Man

Is it possible for you to give me your aquarium in exchange for my soul?


----------



## rickztahone

plantbrain said:


> Sorry, not much of a photo shoot, more just point and shoot, have not trimmed the star in 3 weeks....
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


if you do a trimming any time soon do you have minimums of how much of it you sell? i need a few stems but haven't had luck finding any. thank you Tom


----------



## plantbrain

I typically sell in lots of 20, 40, 60, 80, 100 only.

25$ includes shipping
40$ includes ship
55$ includes ship
70$ includes ship
85$ includes shipping.

I have trouble counting to 20, often times I add 30:wink:

Look this Sunday or so for a Starougyne for FS thread.


----------



## Betta Maniac

plantbrain said:


> Then pursue the passion, it's not all abut plants after all. I've not met many that are not drawn into this hobby without first being drawn by the fish.


I'm working on it . . . slowly. Setting up a 20G long right now and already eyeing a 33G long. I'm just constantly amazed by what people produce. And yeah, wanting to create good homes for my bettas is what got me here, LOL!


----------



## feafur

*Ohhhhh....Mr Barr!*

I have to say I am COMPLETELY amazed by this tank. I feel like an idiot trying to understand it all, but maybe someday I will.  I had to "look up" most of the things I didn't get and some things were just so way over my head that I gave up and just "looked at the pretty pictures"  I have a planted tank, but it is so sad compared to yours. I would post pics, but I'm afraid I would be banned. hahahaha :hihi:
Since it appears you are a genius, I thought I would ask a question or two here. I LOVE the cardinals in that tank and at Christmas time I wanted my tank to have lots of cardinals too, but my LFS doesn't sell them. Only neons, so I decided that would be fine. I bought 40 of them. They died within 2 weeks, except for 1. I also had 3 ottocynclis and 2 cory cats in there who were doing fine and my plants all looked great. I have a 72 gallon bowfront and have a 25 gallon sump under it that I just used to add more water. It does have a blue filter that I clean every so often as needed....but, that's it. I have no other filtration. I took some water to the LFS to let THEM test it and he said my ph was WAY out of control. Told me to take out my rocks. I did. My ph is still at 8.2 after 3 water changes. I feel awful that I killed those neons, but wonder why 1 of them is still alive and why the other fish are doing fine. Plus, how to I get the ph to continue going down? I have Miracle grow organic substrate under my black sand and a couple pieces of driftwood. I read on some website to use that and the plants have grown really well. I just want my tank to look nice and be able to have lots of neons! Please help me! Thanks, Kim PS Please don't hurt me. :/


----------



## plantbrain

Added some nice electric blue rams, frisky and well matched in this tank.


----------



## !shadow!

Nice choice, I'm planning on getting some as well but they're so hard to find over here.


----------



## inkslinger

plantbrain said:


> Parallel schematic for the Ocean Clear canister filters, the line is split into two 3/4" pipes that each go to separate OC filter.
> One is a 18w UC+ 25 micron peleted filter.
> The other is Bio and chem filter.
> They run two lines, with one going to a CO2 in line needle wheel and the other going through a 300W in line heater.
> 
> The pump is an Iwaki RTL 40, runs about 800gph at high pressure through this system. Each OC has a pressure gauge to know when to back flush.
> 
> 
> The two separate lines converge into a single 1" line to the return.
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Hello Mr Tom Barr I would like to ask with this set up do you get any heat issues from splitting your line after the pump and then back too one return . 
I'm using a Nu-Clear 533 an 547 filters and a Blue Line 55 HD 1100gph pump an a Mazzie for my co2 and every thing is run on a 1 inch line, 
When I first set this up my intake and returns are over the rim with a 1 inch intake and 2 returns , I bottle neck my system and had my temp at *90
24/7 , 
I remove the bottle neck an drop the temp down *85. Now I only have is split after my pump , my 2 filters on one side and the Mazzie on the other side. 
Before I ditch this set-up I'm going to add two 1 inch intake an use a 1-1/2 inch line to the pump and see if that will drop my temp down some more an maybe add a DIY Reactor for my CO2. I have been fighting the heat issues for over 6 months now an it's frustrating I would have like a temp of *78 or *80 24/7


----------



## ryndisher

Thats a beautiful peace of wood!


----------



## plantbrain

No heat issues here, but I do not use the mazzei any longer and have not for a number of years now.


----------



## Martin

plantbrain said:


> No heat issues here, but I do not use the mazzei any longer and have not for a number of years now.


So what _do_ you use instead of the Mazzei?


----------



## plantbrain

Martin said:


> So what _do_ you use instead of the Mazzei?


Needle wheel.

I use a Rio 1000 in the lower corned behind the wood, hard to even notice it. 
Snip the impeller blades into 3rds. Does the same thing with 2x the flow and 1/2 the energy, never clogs or varies.


----------



## chad320

Tom, How many EBRs did you get? i see 2 in the pic. Will these keep the cardinals schooling better?


----------



## inkslinger

May be a pump could be too much an causing my heat issue ? 
I taught of getting a Blue Line 40 HD 790gph high pressure pump witch is close to your Iwaki RTL 40, that runs about 800gph at high pressure?
is your tank drilled for your intake?


----------



## plantbrain

chad320 said:


> Tom, How many EBRs did you get? i see 2 in the pic. Will these keep the cardinals schooling better?


No, they think they are big cardinals.
I think there's 12 in here, they all run up together to feed. I know the pic does not show many and the same is true for all the checker board cichlids either.

They are begging pigs.


----------



## plantbrain

inkslinger said:


> May be a pump could be too much an causing my heat issue ?
> I taught of getting a Blue Line 40 HD 790gph high pressure pump witch is close to your Iwaki RTL 40, that runs about 800gph at high pressure?
> is your tank drilled for your intake?



If the housing is away from the motor, then this will reduce the transfer of heat a great deal. The Iwaki I use has this so the impeller is a couple of inches away from the motor housing. Little giant pumps have this as well.

It's the pump that's heating the tank up, lights will, but not that much for planted tanks since we really do not need that much.

There are no returns/intakes over the side of this tank, both in/out are plumbed through the bottom of the tank. Then it goes to 2 OC canister filters. 

I am going to install a large wet/dry filter in 1-2 months. This will cut the electric pump cost by about 1/2 and get the heater, and needle wheel out of the tank. I have a good location and flow pattern for the over flow and the return. So it will not distract much from the present set up, you will no longer see the pre filter intake on the far Right hand side though.

I'll plug that once I get the Wet/dry going.

The wet/dry has about 28 gal capacity, so the evaporation losses will be less of an issue and cleanign sponge filters in a Wet/dery sump is 10X easier than the ball valves and the OC canister filters and rinsing those.

I hate cleaning them suckers.


----------



## chad320

Me too. I have also been thinking of switching to a w/d sump style. How will you diffuse Co2 in this one if not with a needle wheel?


----------



## inkslinger

plantbrain said:


> 1. There are no returns/intakes over the side of this tank, both in/out are plumbed through the bottom of the tank. Then it goes to 2 OC canister filters.
> 
> 2. I am going to install a large wet/dry filter in 1-2 months.
> The wet/dry has about 28 gal capacity


1. Is your intake going into the pump first then too the OC canister filters

2. Is this going to be a name brand wet-dry filter or DIY, and replacing the bio balls with sponge instead? How would add co2 and how would you seal the wet-dry from co2 escaping?
So any thing more than 28g you will have less evaporation lost? How big of a pump are you planning on using on this? And no over flow box?


----------



## plantbrain

The Wet/dry is just a no name brand, does not matter.
I use a CPR overflow that I can move and remove if need be.
There's several other overflow designs that are better for permanent type set ups, but this is not permanent.

I use Clear PCV returns.

I use the Bioballs and pack it fuller than they typically offer. Sponge is after the bioball section, more for mechanical cleaning(10, 20, 30ppi).

Likely just use a Life guard pump I have since it's just low pressure return, this saves a lot on the $$$ for electricity of high pressure return pumps.
Less noise too.

For NW CO2, you just have the NW in the sump right next to the intake for the return pump.

Goes into the return pump and atomizes another time, then into the tank, then mixed with the Vortech high flow/lower pressure to the plants.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## feh

plantbrain said:


>


 Nice whiptails... Whats the spotted fish on the left?


----------



## chad320

EBRs, farowellas, pygmy chain loaches, Yamato shrimp, Cardinal tetras, and a mystery fish. lol. Must have been feeding time. Thanks for the info on the new W/D setup.


----------



## plantbrain

No pig chain loaches, checker board cichlids though


----------



## chad320

ahhh. I see them now. I though that little one was a pygmy chain loach. Nice to see the checkerboards dont bother the shrimp.


----------



## inkslinger

Would a RIO+ 800 with Venturi work the same 
as your DIY MOD Needle Wheel Impeller for the RIO 1000 Pump?
Will the 800 be good enough for a 110g tank?


----------



## plantbrain

inkslinger said:


> Would a RIO+ 800 with Venturi work the same
> as your DIY MOD Needle Wheel Impeller for the RIO 1000 Pump?
> Will the 800 be good enough for a 110g tank?


I'd use a maxi jet instead.


----------



## Kosey929

plantbrain said:


>


Your tanks are stunning! Hate to hijack, but can you tell me what variety of plant is growing among the driftwood in this picture? Did you somehow have to 'train' it to grow along the branches? Please forgive my 'noob' questions...and thanks in advance for any information you're willing to share.

Karen


----------



## plantbrain

F2 Sturisoma have breed for the first time, so these breeding adults have never seen another aquarium. So much for all that Steer manure about NO3 causing issues for fish and shrimp, or CO2 above 30ppm or PO4 causing algae or being bad for fish, or Fe etc........ 
This completes this fish's entire life cycle. 










Chew on them apples


----------



## 2wheelsx2

plantbrain said:


> Chew on them apples


Bwahahaha...you have such a delicate way of putting things Tom.


----------



## plantbrain

2wheelsx2 said:


> Bwahahaha...you have such a delicate way of putting things Tom.












Gotta cut the myths out one way or another, if I take some "delicate' egos out with it, so be it.


----------



## plantbrain

chad320 said:


> ahhh. I see them now. I though that little one was a pygmy chain loach. Nice to see the checkerboards dont bother the shrimp.


Well, the crows do not eat all the worms, but they pick off a few behind the tractor plow. Same here, when I trim the Starougyne, they follow me and go after the smaller RCS's. They never get them all. The electric blue rams do the same thing, but are not as brave.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, managed a 30 Gal water change without exposing the eggs.


----------



## JCoxRocks

Tom, catching this a little late. LOVE the stauro and the electric blue rams. Great setup, but then, I would never expect any less from you. I'm pretty sure I could give you a betta tank with blue gravel and you'd come out making Amano jealous.

Keep it up!

J


----------



## plantbrain

I managed to get 6 kittens from the last egg batch, the tetras and rams picked off all but 10 eggs a week later.

Well, now the female laid about 30 more eggs 2 weeks after the last, so now I am going to repeat this once again.
Takes about 1 week to hatch in the tank.


----------



## shrimpnmoss

Healthy plants, breeding fish, no algae....wow......what can I say? One day....


----------



## jcgd

Just read through the journal again. Such a nice tank.

Anything new happening here?


----------



## plantbrain

I managed to nab 18 fry of the Sturisoma this time after removing the egg eating large S. auratus pleco.

I'm about to add the wet dry filter and redo a few things there.

The Electric blue rams even in a 180 gal tank with many other fish have killed eachother and bullied the weak ones. I'm down to 2 large males.

Go figure.

They are huge and aggressive to eachother, but have not killed each other yet. 
Was hoping to keep 6-8 of them, guess not.
Still thinking of going a DIY LED, but that is still a ways off.


----------



## jkan0228

I've heard that whiptail catfish are great algae eaters, is this true?


----------



## 150EH

I'm just a couple of years late, wow I really like the whole setup and simplicty of the tank, easy for me to say just watching you change everything around trying to get it exactly as you wish. I also love the large school streched from end to end, there are some really nice photos in this thread, great job!!!!


----------



## TwoStrokeKing

Beautiful tanks tom. i hope i can get that good someday


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> I've heard that whiptail catfish are great algae eaters, is this true?


No.

Gold nuggets are better, but they(royal farowellas) match well with driftwood.

Pitbull plecos in mass are the best I've seen to date.


----------



## plantbrain

TwoStrokeKing said:


> Beautiful tanks tom. i hope i can get that good someday


Only took me 35 years:redface:


----------



## 150EH

The more I look at this tank the more amazed I am over how great it looks, and as always it's the simplicity of the tank and I can never seem to capture that in my own. I've don't believe I've ever seen the Starougyne before (the foreground plant, did I get that right) but I really like the look and the scale of the plant. My Kribensis are pulling out my Dwarf Hair Grass, do you think the Starougyne would do better in really old Flourite, I would love to replace my old substrate but cash is a problem at the moment. Tom I would love to see the setup under the tank if you've got the time.


----------



## plantbrain

A pair of Ocean Clear filters is all, and not much else. I'll replace with a sump/wet dry soon.


----------



## Jeff5614

150EH said:


> The more I look at this tank the more amazed I am over how great it looks, and as always it's the simplicity of the tank and I can never seem to capture that in my own. I've don't believe I've ever seen the Starougyne before (the foreground plant, did I get that right) but I really like the look and the scale of the plant. My Kribensis are pulling out my Dwarf Hair Grass, do you think the Starougyne would do better in really old Flourite, I would love to replace my old substrate but cash is a problem at the moment. Tom I would love to see the setup under the tank if you've got the time.


S. repens will do well in inert aquarium gravel as long as you provide the needed nutrients so it will be fine in flourite. It also develops some pretty extensive roots.


----------



## 150EH

It looks like it's going to be hard to find, I've been seaching with no luck and only see a handful (if your missing 3 fingers) of sites that have any info on the plant

Every time I find it, there's a new forum with a pic of Tom's tank. There's good information at Tropica about the plant and technics on planting and I found some retail in the UK so it some how was found in the southern Amazon in S.A. and is available it the UK, but no so much here in the states.


----------



## tcampbell

*That' strange*

Wow. I have never know them to be that agressive. I have 5 standard GBR in my 50gallon tank, along with 3 Electric Blue ones and a other fish with no issues at all. None have been killed or harrased. When I had 4 in a 25 gallon tank here was always issues though.




plantbrain said:


> I managed to nab 18 fry of the Sturisoma this time after removing the egg eating large S. auratus pleco.
> 
> I'm about to add the wet dry filter and redo a few things there.
> 
> The Electric blue rams even in a 180 gal tank with many other fish have killed eachother and bullied the weak ones. I'm down to 2 large males.
> 
> Go figure.
> 
> They are huge and aggressive to eachother, but have not killed each other yet.
> Was hoping to keep 6-8 of them, guess not.
> Still thinking of going a DIY LED, but that is still a ways off.


----------



## jkan0228

150EH said:


> It looks like it's going to be hard to find, I've been seaching with no luck and only see a handful (if your missing 3 fingers) of sites that have any info on the plant
> 
> Every time I find it, there's a new forum with a pic of Tom's tank. There's good information at Tropica about the plant and technics on planting and I found some retail in the UK so it some how was found in the southern Amazon in S.A. and is available it the UK, but no so much here in the states.


Its not really a hard plants. As long as you have good ferts/lighting and co2, it'll do just fine


----------



## Jeff5614

150EH said:


> It looks like it's going to be hard to find, I've been seaching with no luck and only see a handful (if your missing 3 fingers) of sites that have any info on the plant
> 
> Every time I find it, there's a new forum with a pic of Tom's tank. There's good information at Tropica about the plant and technics on planting and I found some retail in the UK so it some how was found in the southern Amazon in S.A. and is available it the UK, but no so much here in the states.


S. repens is commonly sold here on SnS and Tom sells a ton of it fairly regularly also. Just search SnS and the powersellers forum also.


----------



## plantbrain

tcampbell said:


> Wow. I have never know them to be that agressive. I have 5 standard GBR in my 50gallon tank, along with 3 Electric Blue ones and a other fish with no issues at all. None have been killed or harrased. When I had 4 in a 25 gallon tank here was always issues though.


Mine are VERY well fed though.
They tripled in size in about 2 months.


----------



## plantbrain

Give you an idea of the hacking it gets in this tank:



















2 weeks later:









4 weeks later after trimming the rear right after 2 weeks prior:









Goldie pleco has doubled in size, very active nice pleco.
They get large however, but smaller ones are very nice fish.


----------



## Da Plant Man

You must make quite a bit from trimming! B-E-A-Utilful as always!


----------



## shrimpnmoss

Do you ever get fuzz on all that wood? Do you clean your wood at all during maintenance?


----------



## khoile

Hi Tom,

Beautiful tank. How many cardinals do you have there? How about a video so we can see this beautiful tank come to life?


----------



## orchidman

love the tank tom! that stauro is beautiful


----------



## AoxomoxoA

How does your aquasoil stay so perfect?


----------



## 150EH

I was looking at lighting today because I'm getting ready to overhaul an old Current USA Orbit fixture with 4 x 96 watt pc bulbs and I thought after 8 years maybe I would replace the hood. After looking the best fixture I found was the one you used on your tank, it looks great, plenty of wattage in a single hood, the only draw back is (besides the price) I don't think they make a freshwater version, Tom did you have to replace the atinic bulbs at your expense or did the retailer work with you?

BTW I'm keeping my old hood, I really got sticker shock but for a top of the line show tank like yours I though it was the only option as it is very sleek.


----------



## feh

I'll be happy when mine adjusts and actually starts growing. Worry about hacking it later. Oh and that vortec looks like it needs a cleaning.


----------



## plantbrain

dirtyhermit said:


> How does your aquasoil stay so perfect?


I vacuum it every so often and siphon it out, then return to the rear of the tank.


The hood was a high tech thing at the time. Been awhile.
I like the fixture look and adjustable aspects.

I would like to remove the PC and HQI lamps(these latter lights are never used), then install some nice 3W Cree with Red/Blue/white with dimmers into the old bulb locations.

I only might need about 180 W to run it at higher light than it it is now.

I am switching the canister filter to a Wet/dry tomorrow, got the holes drilled etc today.

The Sturisoma eggs hatched early last night and it looks like about 70% of the fry where eaten. So I managed to nab about 15-20.


----------



## plantbrain

khoile said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Beautiful tank. How many cardinals do you have there? How about a video so we can see this beautiful tank come to life?


A video would be good and show the flow.

300 Cards.


----------



## globali

Exquisite driftwood and smart layout,
it's not easy 2 create such a harmony.


----------



## TankZen

Wow looking awesome!!


----------



## feh

plantbrain said:


> A video would be good and show the flow.
> 
> 300 Cards.


I'd really like to see a video after you install the wet/dry


----------



## plantbrain

feh said:


> I'd really like to see a video after you install the wet/dry


Send a movie crew

I'll get around to it sometime.

I just got a pair of 70 Gal tanks and redid my 120..........so I have a lot on the plate.


----------



## plantbrain

Wet/dry has been installed. Tank is a little cloudier, but as the filter bacteria mature, things will clean up nicely. No surface scum, improved flow dynamics, less energy and noise(switched pumps), the fish vitality is noticeable also, the O2 jumped 1-2 ppm up.

Most importantly, I no longer need to change those damn Ocean clear canister filters or rinse them. Nor turn those harder than heck 1" ball PVC valves under neath the cabinet, next time, a nice level valve made out of brass.


My non CO2 60p is the last non wet/dry tank left.
I have a wet/dry for it and small Eshopps nano prefilter, this might take up a bit more room than I want/wish, so I might stick with the plan, but the high O2 would be worth it and help a non CO2 tank with the gas exchange rates. I seal up the dry section on the CO2 enriched tanks, but not for this one or the reef.


----------



## 150EH

+1 on the video Tom, I would really like to see and understand just how a well executed sump design is made and works in a planted tank with a drilled bottom. I've been looking at youtube videos and reading some artilces but they are all for reef tanks and with no first hand knowledge I would like to see the and understand your media choices.

How does the flow compare to your old canister system??

The rise in O2 is great and can only help an already beautiful tanks be even better. I hope your taking lots of high res. photos and taking notes, I see a book here somewhere!!


----------



## .Mko.

beautiful truly inspiring tank =)


----------



## Lil' Swimz$

It's beautiful.


----------



## jcgd

150EH said:


> +1 on the video Tom, I would really like to see and understand just how a well executed sump design is made and works in a planted tank with a drilled bottom. I've been looking at youtube videos and reading some artilces but they are all for reef tanks and with no first hand knowledge I would like to see the and understand your media choices.
> 
> How does the flow compare to your old canister system??
> 
> The rise in O2 is great and can only help an already beautiful tanks be even better. I hope your taking lots of high res. photos and taking notes, I see a book here somewhere!!


I believe he plugged the holes in the bottom and now uses an overflow.


----------



## 150EH

Some how I don't see Tom doing that with a tank you can view from all sides and the layout of the holes in the bottom, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see. A sump is just a constant syphon with a return, I would think in a tank like that with any type of over flow or skimmer operation would be done under the tank after all it is a rimless show tank built on the less is more foundation.


----------



## plantbrain

150EH said:


> +1 on the video Tom, I would really like to see and understand just how a well executed sump design is made and works in a planted tank with a drilled bottom. I've been looking at youtube videos and reading some artilces but they are all for reef tanks and with no first hand knowledge I would like to see the and understand your media choices.
> 
> How does the flow compare to your old canister system??
> 
> The rise in O2 is great and can only help an already beautiful tanks be even better. I hope your taking lots of high res. photos and taking notes, I see a book here somewhere!!


Prefilter sponge is now gone and the bottom bulkheads have been plugged.
Just the overflow prefilter and the Vortech are left.

Sump is no different than 1001 marine reef forum on wet/dry filters.
I just duct tape up the edges where air can escape in the wet/dry tower section is all, otherwise, it is identical.

All you do is plug up the venting in the dry section of the tower to prevent CO2 loss. The open section of the sump is placid.....and very little CO2 is degassed there.

Flow is a tad higher than the Little Giant 4QX and I use 1/2 the energy for the pump alone and reduced the noise by over 20dB.

That alone is well worth the trade off.

I use 20 and 30ppi sponge block, 4" thick for the media.

the wet/dry section, basic bioballs, toss the heater under that and a needle wheel fed into the return pump.

Fish are much more perky now that Wet/dry has been installed. The Sturisoma bred yet again, and seen to not ever care the old filter was removed.

So that's good news. I'm pretty sure the fry where eaten from the last batch since I was out of town. I have not been good about raising them up in the 10 Gal sponge filter bare bottom tanks out in the garage. Some batches do fine, others all die after 2-5 days. I sterilized the tank for this next batch today, so in a week or less, I'll try again. They tend to grow fast and get to be an inch or more in 6 weeks or so.

I'd like to leave them in the tank, but does not look good right now. They are getting eaten. At least the male can defend the eggs now after removal of the larger P. leopardus and the S aureatus plecos. 

The RCS get caught in the overflow, so I can cull the paler ones out and then return the nicer reds, I do this weekely, the old method was harder since I have to catch them in the plant beds, no fun. The overflow is perfect for this.


----------



## Capsaicin_MFK

Why the sudden change to all wet/dry filters?


----------



## plantbrain

Capsaicin_MFK said:


> Why the sudden change to all wet/dry filters?


Easier, higher O2 levels, and less work to keep clean, good way to cull out some RCS, no surface scum, less rubbish in the tank, better energy efficacy, no evaporation changes in the main tank.


----------



## fishyjoe24

but wouldn't wet/dry lose c02 or is that a myth... because if i can use a wet dry filter with out having to save up for a canister that will save me a ton of money.


----------



## jkan0228

fishyjoe24 said:


> but wouldn't wet/dry lose c02 or is that a myth... because if i can use a wet dry filter with out having to save up for a canister that will save me a ton of money.


As long as you seal the sump, I think you're fine


----------



## demonr6

I was thinking about something like this for the 55.. still have to do some reading and figure it all out though. Tank looks stunning.


----------



## plantbrain

fishyjoe24 said:


> but wouldn't wet/dry lose c02 or is that a myth... because if i can use a wet dry filter with out having to save up for a canister that will save me a ton of money.


Well, what do you think give the pics and the other tanks I've done with wet/drys?

I think the results speak for themselves.


----------



## plantbrain

This method of fry rearing uses the same tank water, the fry will get eaten otherwise.


----------



## lamiskool

this tank is amazing, really wanted a tank dedicated to scaling and a bunch of cardinals, maybe or a bunch of rasboras


----------



## orchidman

im going to copy your idea with the plants! hope you dont mind.


----------



## 150EH

How did you get the fry out of the tank????

It's so cool that they like laying their eggs on the glass, could they make it any easier to see.


----------



## plantbrain

150EH said:


> How did you get the fry out of the tank????
> 
> It's so cool that they like laying their eggs on the glass, could they make it any easier to see.


Yes and no, if they'd lay the eggs a bit lower I could do water changes much easier without drying the eggs out and having to wet them while doing the WC's.

I net the fry out as they hatch and hopefully are not eaten immediately by hungry Cichlids and tetras.


----------



## plantbrain

I added some lace plants in the back, I think I'll work more with those and remove the H garderi and Erios and just have the few Crypts in the back, then nice Lace plants and Blyxa in the front, midground there.

Lace plants like the current.

The foreground Starougyne is about 2 weeks after the mowing to the nub/the bone.....so this gives an idea of the regrowth rates.........the other side of the tank is 1 week out......

This needs another week to fully look nice, and 2 more to be ready to be trimmed well again.


----------



## chris.rivera3

any chance we'll see a video soon Tom? :icon_smil ...i want to hear how quiet your sump is


----------



## 2in10

Gorgeous I like the use of the Lace plant like that.


----------



## 150EH

I got some Staurogyne sp. 'Porto Velho' from an auction on the 24th of last month and it's put out some new leaves (small) but I have yet to see any root development. I've been dosing Excel at 1 ml per 3 gallons of water to help with a little water quality issue I was have but otherwise I don't know if it would have grown at all. 

Mine is growing in Flourite and the plants were ok but no rooted stems, so those are 2 set backs to start, but it's the only foreground plant my Pelvicachromis sacrimontis haven't pulled out, I need to get rid of these fish. But I hope they will soon take root and fill in like your 049, I really like the look of this plant and it gives deep cover for shrimp.


----------



## audioaficionado

plantbrain said:


> I added some lace plants in the back, I think I'll work more with those and remove the H garderi and Erios and just have the few Crypts in the back, then nice Lace plants and Blyxa in the front, midground there.
> 
> Lace plants like the current.
> 
> The foreground Starougyne is about 2 weeks after the mowing to the nub/the bone.....so this gives an idea of the regrowth rates.........the other side of the tank is 1 week out......
> 
> This needs another week to fully look nice, and 2 more to be ready to be trimmed well again.


Awesome custom tank Tom. That 3/4" glass must have been terribly spendy. Now I know what I'll need for my dream custom 60"x30"x24" tank.
I love the mass effect of those cardinals against your wood and plant scape.

I didn't read the whole thread yet, but I wonder how those hatchet fish fared in this open tank.


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> I didn't read the whole thread yet, but I wonder how those hatchet fish fared in this open tank.



Somewhere is a very lucky cat.


----------



## audioaficionado

plantbrain said:


> Somewhere is a very lucky cat.


I thought so as I didn't see any in the latest FTS.
Meow meow = (yum yum)
How much that tank weigh empty?


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> I thought so as I didn't see any in the latest FTS.
> Meow meow = (yum yum)
> How much that tank weigh empty?


It weights = 5 good sized guys to lift it.
About 450-550 lbs I'd say. 
PITA to move and when I move next, I'll sell the tank off. 
I'll get new one and stand, but keep everything else.

I might sell the hood also.

That's 1-2 years away.


----------



## audioaficionado

Sounds like you're not just moving across town.

I don't like my house or neighborhood so I won't get a custom tank until I like where I live. House is free and clear, but too many gangs have moved in the last several years.

Stock sized tanks for now 

Getting a nice custom rimless is on my bucket list for sure.


----------



## plantbrain

audioaficionado said:


> Sounds like you're not just moving across town.
> 
> I don't like my house or neighborhood so I won't get a custom tank until I like where I live. House is free and clear, but too many gangs have moved in the last several years.
> 
> Stock sized tanks for now
> 
> Getting a nice custom rimless is on my bucket list for sure.


Yes, I do miss those helicopters zooming overhead telling you to stay inside........Glad I no longer live on the edge of the hood.

I'll post some post trim growth next week on this tank. Sturisoma breed each week now, one female does one week, then the other does the next.
I do not have the room to handle and tend all the fry.

So the strongest survive.

Which means 3-4 out of 60.


----------



## griffin_pak

hey Tom whats growing on that exposed DW? Looking to grow something similar in my shallow cube on the exposed parts


----------



## plantbrain

I have a matrix of moss, HC and Bolbitus growing emergent on the tip sticking out of the water on this. The plant species have changed here and there over the years.

I'll be removing more of the Crypts in the rear and replacing with Lace plants. The Blyxa will return and fill in the mid ground on the right middle sides.

I have some Schneball plecos that will be added as the P leopardus tend to get larger and are a tad more aggressive that I care for this tank.


----------



## boon

I would love to see a close up of that emergent growth on top.


----------



## the planter

plantbrain said:


> I added some lace plants in the back, I think I'll work more with those and remove the H garderi and Erios and just have the few Crypts in the back, then nice Lace plants and Blyxa in the front, midground there.
> 
> Lace plants like the current.
> 
> The foreground Starougyne is about 2 weeks after the mowing to the nub/the bone.....so this gives an idea of the regrowth rates.........the other side of the tank is 1 week out......
> 
> This needs another week to fully look nice, and 2 more to be ready to be trimmed well again.


wow :eek5: 
I've always been fond of tanks like this. Great set up!


----------



## fishyjoe24

plantbrain said:


> Well, what do you think give the pics and the other tanks I've done with wet/drys?
> 
> I think the results speak for themselves.


 i haven't been here in a while tank is looking nice, and yep photos are speaking for them selfs.... what size sump would you recomend for a 125-180. there is a guy in my plant club who wants to upgrade his tank was was asking about using reef ready tanks, as a planted tank with a sump, and says the local fish shops said that he shouldn't i told him he could, and just put a lid on the sump. the tank is looking real nice , got any driftwood pieces that would look real good in a 40g cube 24x18x24?


----------



## plantbrain

boon said:


> I would love to see a close up of that emergent growth on top.


Older one:










HC/Moss and Bolbitus now.


----------



## orchidman

that looks great!


----------



## plantbrain

Update. Not the good kind either.

I added some fish that had some ich, well.........I treated as soon as I added the fish, typically, they get better and that's that. Not this time. I kept treating and over 2.5 weeks lost every single fish. I bumped the temp up to 88-90F 12 hours after adding the fish. I did 3x weekly water changes at 60%.

Cleaned filters, everything.

5 year old Cards, all gone. Watched 20-30 a day die........then the Sturisoma and the rare plecos.........

I have one male Sturisoma left, a couple of plecos and few ottos.
Everything else died and no matter what I did to save them, there's nothing I could do. The Starougyne reacted to the high temps and shed about 50-60 of the LOWER leaves. The tops are growing back now. Some of the lace plant older leaves have browned.

Even with 35 + years of experience, there was nothing I could do to save these fish who where fat, healthy and a common parasite that's treatable.....I could understand if the parasite was already attacking the fish and they where in bad shape....but this was BEFORE and it still was unstoppable.

Pissed me off and depressing to watch.

I added some Amano shrimp for now, in 2 weeks, I'll get some cards and start over.


----------



## orchidman

uh oh  sorry about the fish! how about another FTS?


----------



## antbug

Sorry to hear you lost them all, Tom. They were so beautiful to watch in person. I can't imagine taking a blow that hard all at once.


----------



## myswtsins

That is heartbreaking! I am very sorry for the loss, I can't imagine having to watch that. I don't post very often on this site but have been observing since I started fish keeping (1/08) and have been watching this tank from the beginning just drooling and aspiring. I am very glad to hear you are going to start over though, good luck with new guys!

BTW this tank is one of my all time favorites! I use it as my background on my desktop sometimes.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Sorry to hear Tom. I had the same thing happen with a 46 gallon pleco tank I started. One gold nugget had it and killed my L75 and all other plecos. Nothing I could do. Seems there are some new med/temp resistant strains of ich out there now. Probably a legacy of broad spectrum dosing that is common to the hobby now.


----------



## Hoppy

Wow! That is really bad news. I'm not sure I would recover so quickly and be thinking of restarting the tank. This does make me think a lot more about quarantine tanks, which I have never used. There is a very slight benefit to the rest of us from this, very slight, but still it's something. Now, when one of us has a disaster like this occur, we may not feel so inadequate, knowing that it even happened to you.


----------



## !shadow!

Sorry to hear about your loss. Can't imagine losing 20-30 a day. I have it bad enough for one as it is. You said you had them for 5 years... I have yet to have fish last me that long. Tops is like 2years (GBR's babies) and even then they are close to me and would certainly cause me to get a bit depressed since I raised the little guys. I'm sure you'll have this tank up and running like it once was in no time. Good luck with everything and your future plans.


----------



## audioaficionado

I've seen your pictures of those cards schooling around your tank. Awesome and inspirational to see. So sorry for your huge loss. Do you think the ich will be gone from the tank by the time you start restocking?


----------



## zergling

Ouch! Sorry to hear about the losses Tom.

Like Hoppy said, I am also reminded of the importance of quarantine tanks. I've been taking the gamble on my recent purchases as I don't have an empty cycled tank, nor the floor space for it. Thankfully, I've been on luck's side lately, at least on that aspect. I have to stop pushing it, though.


----------



## audioaficionado

I just put in some healthy Petsmart fish and now a few of my 7 months old existing fish have been dropping overnight. A QT is a necessity from now on.


----------



## sssnel

That is horrible, I am so sorry.


----------



## plantbrain

A q tank was on my mind.........I have them also......but I knew the fish would not make it in the Q tank, so I took a chance and paid a heavy price.

Retail maybe 2K$ worth of fish.


----------



## orchidman

2k? wow! i didn trealize it was that many! that must really stink brother! i feel for ya


----------



## plantbrain

2wheelsx2 said:


> Sorry to hear Tom. I had the same thing happen with a 46 gallon pleco tank I started. One gold nugget had it and killed my L75 and all other plecos. Nothing I could do. Seems there are some new med/temp resistant strains of ich out there now. Probably a legacy of broad spectrum dosing that is common to the hobby now.


I'm afraid you are likely correct, I've NEVER seen a strain like this nor that lasted this long.
I treated for 2+ weeks and was still getting NEW infections, oh...I also ran the UV as well.

Tank's settled down now, but I'll wait another 2 weeks and then add a few at a time to see.


----------



## chad320

It hurts to take big hits like that. Ive had a few. Good luck with the restart. Got any new ideas for livestock or are you sticking to your guns? I just got a pair of red blue Columbian tetras that would be awesome in a school of 50!!


----------



## plantbrain

Most of the ideas involve fish that jump out of the tank, cards are good there, they do not like suicide.

The tank is well suited to them, so they will be added again.

I'll likely add the several Sturisoma fry added to other tanks before.that I bred.......to restock this. Then perhaps only added some Schneball plecos.

If I could kill all the cherry shrimp.........I'd do it also if I could avoid toasting the plants and filter.

Nothing kills them, some fish eat a few, but could never get all the ones in the filter etc.

Nothing worse than watching slow death. The fish that had it originally had nice white spots, so it was impossible to tell except when the light was shown on it just right, I got lucky seeing it before I left him go, big mistake. I think it was some stronger strain of Ich.........

The high temps alone should have broke the life cycle........


----------



## !shadow!

> The high temps alone should have broke the life cycle........


I thought that too... makes you wanna throw out everything you know about ich and start over.


----------



## talontsiawd

Tom, sorry to hear that. Your tank was one of the first that got me hooked on Cardinal Tetras as you started this tank right when I was first learning and wanted every type of fish in one tank, then I wanted every rare new fish that came into the hobby. Only about a year ago did I finally start a tank with only cardinals (and added two GBR's later). 

I hope the next round goes more smoothly. I am happy to hear you are going with Cardinals again. Also makes me think about a quarantine tank. I used to have one and then found it pointless as I never had any issues it would have prevented. I will probably use an extra tank while I start restocking my tanks, your misfortune is fortunate to the rest, I know that isn't a great consolation but it does help.

Good luck with the restart and sorry for what happened.


----------



## plantbrain

!shadow! said:


> I thought that too... makes you wanna throw out everything you know about ich and start over.


Yes, this was very weird.
It got into another tank, did not even infect most of them, took 3 fish down also, I went to 90F and took CO2 off line etc........same deal, but the other fish never got it.

The other tanks, nothing.
I wiped and sterilized everything also.

Murphy struck.

I honestly do not care a hootenannie about the $, the fish themselves had become very personal to me. That's the part that burns me the most. 
There's no fish left, so the display becomes the quarantine tank for the first batch I restock with.

They will be fat and happy in a few months of piggery.
The other issue treating a large tank for 2-3 weeks.......you use *a lot of medication*.


----------



## Mxx

Super-Ich, which no treatments can kill? Chilling... 

Are you doing anything to sterilize the tank or just letting it wait for some period of time?

I've heard recommendations to put new fish in a quarantine tank for a month and then treat them regardless with both a Levamisole anti-parasite treatment and anti-bacterial treatment such as Interpet No 9. For even if they look fine over the course of a month, they could still be carrying something which could affect your other fish. And that it's good to have something easy such as loads of Java Moss to act as the necessary bio-filtration instead of a normal bio-filter, in case you need to also treat with an antibiotic such as Erythromycin. I'm not yet sure about whether those recommendations are the thing to follow, but intend to look into it further as soon as I've finished setting up my quarantine tank.


----------



## The Gipper

So sorry to hear, I've followed this for last few years, and had a pang of pain when you posted the loss. 

I know you plugged the bottom tank holes when switched to wet dry, and using cpr overflow. Are you still using the the tank bottom holes fo return or over the top?

I'm moving from 120 up to 180 this winter, plants & fish, all high tech (will jump in on your plant trimming sales soon). LFS offers Aqueon tanks so likely limited to that unless you think glass cages dot com are better (i'm in Ohio so limited options)...for permament wet dry setup would you recommend Bean Animal method (I need as silent as possible). If so, is the Aqueon glass drillable?

Thanks as always...Mark L


----------



## nonconductive

that stinks tom but i would have figured with 35+ years of fish keeping you would know better and QT all new fish regardless.


----------



## plantbrain

nonconductive said:


> that stinks tom but i would have figured with 35+ years of fish keeping you would know better and QT all new fish regardless.


I often do it...........but not that time...........a painful cost for a short cut. One I will never forget.


----------



## Alyssa

::cries:: I was so hoping to get a couple of Sturisoma off you one day - those are one of my all time fav species!


----------



## !shadow!

nonconductive said:


> that stinks tom but i would have figured with 35+ years of fish keeping you would know better and QT all new fish regardless.


I got about 10(not trying to bragg) and still don't QT even tho I should. I think one of the main reasons why we as aquarist don't do it is because we get overconfident in the health of the fish and are desperate to see the fish in the sweet looking display we worked so hard for to make and can't wait to see the fish swimming so freely in the scape. You also got the "i'm so used to not QT and my fish have never gotten sick before so you assume it'll be ok one more time since the odds are so low" excuse and you let it get the best of you. I plan on setting up a QT before my next set up tho. Like an old saying goes 

"A smart man learns from his mistakes, but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others"


----------



## plantbrain

Some of us(cough cough) just do stupid things.

I suppose I could lie and not tell what happened and restock the tank etc..........but it's better folks see mistakes and the dumb things, and also be mindful, that even ich, no matter how good you are or think you are, can take you down.

I removed 2 of my Q tanks from 10 Gal and went up to 20 Gal to handle more species/livestock for Q tanks.


----------



## Fat Guy

your tank is just wonderful. sorry to hear about the ich outbreak though. I experienced something quite similar with chili rasboras some time ago. even with tremendous fish keeping experience, ich can be so so frustrating, especially when you lose the battle.


----------



## JoraaÑ

Something similar happened in my tank as well few months back..Did water change in the morning (10ish)...dosed prime, fert etc..nothing new was add for good 2 months in the tank. came home at 2ish...saw some Cardinal floating....thought it was 1 or 2. After close inspection saw whole bunch is gone. Took out 80 of them and some more whatever I could and still some were tangled in the plants. I will never forget that day...Sorry for your loss Tom.


----------



## plantbrain

Card batches are weird, they are hit or miss and no one, at any of the stages of collection really knows why, they are not economically important enough in many cases to hire a vet and disease pathologist to figure out things, often they cannot pinpoint where and what strain it is without considerable $ and effort.

While some say not Q-ing the fish was a rookie mistake, that means 99.9% of all LFS are also rookies. :icon_eek:

I've only seen one LFS ever Q fish, Albany Aquarium.
In a dark poor lit Wholesaler's, it's not as easy to spot and you do not know how long the fish have been there, often a week or less.
Often , allowing them to sit for 2-4 weeks would help..........but then someone else already buys them by then.


----------



## lauraleellbp

I DESPISE Ich, as I've experienced this type of devastating loss ENTIRELY too often. 

I'm one of those people who DOES QT every single fish that comes into my house, and Ich is THE primary reason. IDK if it's that the strains down here in Florida just typically happen to be the super nasty ones or what, but I've learned that once Ich has found its way into one of my main tanks, it's almost impossible to eradicate and even treating and letting tanks lie fallow for weeks or months on end is no guarantee of preventing a reoccurance. (I'm convinced that the line "life finds a way" from Jurassic Park was coined due to ICH. :icon_evil)

Tom, in your shoes, I'd personally wait at least a month or two before starting to restock with fish... especially if you're planning on going with tetras again.

People can knock salt and call it old-fashioned and all that jazz- but it's still the most effective treatment I've ever found for ich. Not the greatest for plants, but plants can usually be regrown with much less risk than is inherent in replacing dead fish.


----------



## Doc7

Sorry to read about that Tom!!

I'm currently QTing my first batch ever (4 Otos...knock on wood I never lost any of cardinals, silvertips, gouramis, or corydoras without QT in the past but decided to do it now that I'm getting serious and doing a high-tech planted....), and this story made me appreciate that.

Cardinals and Pygmy Cories going in the QT in a few days, soon as the Otos get put in the display and the new fish arrive. I definitely will be sure to keep patient... plus the QT livens up the kitchen!


----------



## plantbrain

lauraleellbp said:


> I DESPISE Ich, as I've experienced this type of devastating loss ENTIRELY too often.
> 
> I'm one of those people who DOES QT every single fish that comes into my house, and Ich is THE primary reason. IDK if it's that the strains down here in Florida just typically happen to be the super nasty ones or what, but I've learned that once Ich has found its way into one of my main tanks, it's almost impossible to eradicate and even treating and letting tanks lie fallow for weeks or months on end is no guarantee of preventing a reoccurance. (I'm convinced that the line "life finds a way" from Jurassic Park was coined due to ICH. :icon_evil)
> 
> Tom, in your shoes, I'd personally wait at least a month or two before starting to restock with fish... especially if you're planning on going with tetras again.
> 
> People can knock salt and call it old-fashioned and all that jazz- but it's still the most effective treatment I've ever found for ich. Not the greatest for plants, but plants can usually be regrown with much less risk than is inherent in replacing dead fish.


It'll be about 6 weeks actually and I have 3x 20 Gal tanks nice ad matured ready to go in the garage.

LFS's and Wholesalers do NOT have Q tanks............

I bombed with salts also, used KCL like NaCL........but I think Na+ is a lot more effective, Toxic to Ich.

I agree it's good stuff, gots plenty of salt. Old school methods are very effective IME. Still, none of that would have worked unless I totally toasted the plants. Starougyne is a weed unless you mess with it like that, CO2 runs out for a week, or you add a lot of KCL(which I did).
Then all the dead plant matter........that's not good for the fish, sort of caught on that one, so back to the Q tanks.

I cannot bring a dead fish back from the grave, a plant? I have have them declared dead and gone and bring them back........

The larger Q tank is filled with other fish I have no home for ATM, so I was not going to infect them........so a lack of available Q tank was part of the reason..........I just needed to look at the new fish better also.
Many little silly things that resulted in a disaster. The male Sturisoma made it, somehow got ich at 90F after 2weeks + all the other things I did .....but pulled through. I added some fry from him in other tanks as a temp home, so I have 8 F1's at least.


----------



## KH2PO4

plantbrain said:


> If I could kill all the cherry shrimp.........I'd do it also if I could avoid toasting the plants and filter.
> 
> Nothing kills them, some fish eat a few, but could never get all the ones in the filter etc.


Why do you want to get rid of them all? Aren't they benefitcial?


----------



## plantbrain

KH2PO4 said:


> Why do you want to get rid of them all? Aren't they benefitcial?


Pest shrimp. 

I want to remove all the lower grades and replace with Fire shrimp.


----------



## smiller8

I saw back in some 2008 posts, some arguments about plant species. Why not do some molecular phylogeny! HAHA j/k. I don't think anyone spends time doing molecular work on aquarium species, but I could be wrong.

Best,

Steve Miller


----------



## green_valley

Your tank is just simply inspiring. I LOVE IT


----------



## plantbrain

smiller8 said:


> I saw back in some 2008 posts, some arguments about plant species. Why not do some molecular phylogeny! HAHA j/k. I don't think anyone spends time doing molecular work on aquarium species, but I could be wrong.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Steve Miller


If you have 20-50K$, I'll be happy to do it for you
Molecular work is NOT cheap, some ecology? A bucket, field work and some mud........

MS, GC's, HPLC etc....I will use those......but I really do not go to the Northern, Western blots, but work closely with those that do.

There is actually a GREAT deal of evolutionary work done with aquatic plants, some of which we do keep. Hydrilla is also another intensively characterized to the molecular level, see Bowes and Savucci. I've sent out the pondweeds I work with to see if the two populations are the same or different rather than me attempting to do it in house.

You have to really go out on limb to suggest that my plant does not grow well because someone's who does is a different super sensitive population, most of the aquatics are clonal and often come from the same maternal mother plant that was raised in a larger scale production nursery. 90% of the USA's S. repens 049Tropica comes from me, which came from AFA. That is all clonal and the same genet.


----------



## smiller8

plantbrain said:


> If you have 20-50K$, I'll be happy to do it for you
> Molecular work is NOT cheap, some ecology? A bucket, field work and some mud........
> 
> MS, GC's, HPLC etc....I will use those......but I really do not go to the Northern, Western blots, but work closely with those that do.
> 
> There is actually a GREAT deal of evolutionary work done with aquatic plants, some of which we do keep. Hydrilla is also another intensively characterized to the molecular level, see Bowes and Savucci. I've sent out the pondweeds I work with to see if the two populations are the same or different rather than me attempting to do it in house.
> 
> You have to really go out on limb to suggest that my plant does not grow well because someone's who does is a different super sensitive population, most of the aquatics are clonal and often come from the same maternal mother plant that was raised in a larger scale production nursery. 90% of the USA's S. repens 049Tropica comes from me, which came from AFA. That is all clonal and the same genet.


Yea I know the cost of some molecular work, especially if there are no sequences in Genbank or some other database to get sequences for the work. 

GC, HPLC, GC.....BLAH! All stuff I want to stay away from. I'll do DNA isolations, Paup, or even western, northern or southern blots all day before I do HPLC again. LOL. To each his own I guess!

I'm sure people do aquatic plant phylogeny's, just not sure how much are with those traded around in the aquarium world. I study fungi, so my plant knowledge is fairly limited.

I hope I didn't suggest that your plants don't grow well! Your tanks are some of the nicest I have seen! It is also pretty cool that _S. repens _is a plant species you collected. 

I don't want to hijack your thread with your school work. Sounds like you might be doing some interesting work with micro-satellites or SNP'S? Either way, I do enjoy reading your threads and seeing your progress. I've been learning a lot about aquariums. Slowly working on starting my first planted aquarium tank.

Best,

Steve Miller


----------



## accordztech

plantbrain said:


> Pest shrimp.
> 
> I want to remove all the lower grades and replace with Fire shrimp.


I would be happy to take them off of your hands.


----------



## plantbrain

accordztech said:


> I would be happy to take them off of your hands.


Bring a bucket and a net. As many as you can catch in 60 min for 40$.


----------



## plantbrain

Got some new cardinals, I forgot..........they are dinky tiny when you buy them...........I'd gotten use to huge fat ones.

They are eating brine and flake right away, always a good sign.

Starougyne is starting to grow back nicely after a 1 month lull due to the tank being cooked with meds and salt and high temps(90F).


----------



## accordztech

plantbrain said:


> Bring a bucket and a net. As many as you can catch in 60 min for 40$.


Haha they are hidden under the plants aren't they lol. I will probably take you up on the offer and buy some wood from you to for my 20g long.


----------



## plantbrain

accordztech said:


> Haha they are hidden under the plants aren't they lol. I will probably take you up on the offer and buy some wood from you to for my 20g long.


Sure thing, the shrimp wander into the overflow where they are easy to catch.

So you can get at least 30-60 that way.

I have the fluval shrimp nets which make catching easier.


----------



## plantbrain

Cards are so tiny and have started eating really well. 
I'll feed them 6-8X a day and they should fatten up fast.


----------



## Dempsey

plantbrain said:


> Cards are so tiny and have started eating really well.
> I'll feed them 6-8X a day and they should fatten up fast.


haha, Yeah I am sure they will, feeding them that much. :hihi:

Do you remember the "real" Quick Cure? I know that they sell something now with that name but it is not the real thing...

I think that they stopped selling it about 10 years ago. That stuff was the Super cure for Ich.

I ask people about it and they have no idea what I am talking about. Most LFS owners remember it when I ask them though. Nobody knows why it's not sold anymore.

1-3 days and POOF! Fish cured.


----------



## orchidman

any pics of the new fish?


----------



## plantbrain

orchidman said:


> any pics of the new fish?


I'll post some early this week.

The Cards are TINY still.

But over the next 6 months, they will get quite large.
It's really weird seeing 300 dots vs the 300 I had full grown, behavior, feeding, movement, you cannot even see their tiny little eyes unless you get right up on them.

Maybe my eye sight is going come to think of it


----------



## plantbrain

Dempsey said:


> haha, Yeah I am sure they will, feeding them that much. :hihi:
> 
> Do you remember the "real" Quick Cure? I know that they sell something now with that name but it is not the real thing...
> 
> I think that they stopped selling it about 10 years ago. That stuff was the Super cure for Ich.
> 
> I ask people about it and they have no idea what I am talking about. Most LFS owners remember it when I ask them though. Nobody knows why it's not sold anymore.
> 
> 1-3 days and POOF! Fish cured.


Yep, the ingredients are pretty harsh though.

Fish are nice and young and doing really well. Eating brine very aggressively.
Plants took a real beating, but have bounced back and the Lace plants are recovering and sent up a flower again.

When the plants died back, the BBA came in, but I did nothing.
It covered a few old dead leaves and some of the wood, but it's all gone now after the plants bounced back. I also added some Amano shrimp which will be removed later.

I removed some more of the Crypts to make room for the Lace plants.
Lights are off, I'll get pic tomorrow sometime.


----------



## plantbrain

I think I'll add another Lace plant in the far left corner.


----------



## jkan0228

How do you trim your blyxa? Do you trim it one by one? Or just mow it? Do they tend to send new shoots from the substrate or from the place you trimmed them?


----------



## accordztech

>


Is that a mist thats in your tank? From the co2?


----------



## plantbrain

accordztech said:


> Is that a mist thats in your tank? From the co2?


You can stop by and see for yourself.


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> How do you trim your blyxa? Do you trim it one by one? Or just mow it? Do they tend to send new shoots from the substrate or from the place you trimmed them?


It's a stem plant so you can top it if you wanted.

I typically uproot and thin and replant.

It's VERY weedy.


----------



## The Gipper

Refresh my memory whats the lawn plant?


----------



## The Gipper

Answered my own question (Stauro). hey if you were to do it over again and sell this 180 and buy a new one, would you have it drilled for a wet dry?


----------



## plantbrain

The Gipper said:


> Answered my own question (Stauro). hey if you were to do it over again and sell this 180 and buy a new one, would you have it drilled for a wet dry?


No.

Maybe an outside overflow box, but not a built in overflow.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf

do you ever replant the star repens or are you just pretending to be a lawnmower?


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> do you ever replant the star repens or are you just pretending to be a lawnmower?


Nope, after the initial fill in where I replant the tops, I do not uproot it.

Mow the lawn........


----------



## plantbrain

Java fern is just there for now, waiting for the lace plants to fill in, 2 of the bulbs quickly rotted. Always had better luck with lace plants in cooler temps and plain sand vs ADA AS. They do not like the lower O2 levels in soils it would seem.

It's also about 84F which does not help much.


----------



## plantbrain

I am going to add a pair of ATI lights to this tank in the next month or so.


----------



## Retrogamer82

I really dig the way you trim the stauro back off the glass. Have been following this tank for a long time and it has taught me a lot. It looking great as always man.


----------



## 150EH

Retrogamer82 said:


> I really dig the way you trim the stauro back off the glass. Have been following this tank for a long time and it has taught me a lot. It looking great as always man.


It does look better than having the plants all smashed up against the glass.

It looks good Tom but it looks like all the little red roaches have left are they are hiding. It's seem the lace plants have a mind of their own, I've read journals where people claim it never grew until it got shaded by other plants and then it took off, and other claim the more light the better. I would like to get my hands on a A. crispus red but I haven't seen any in the states yet, one of our club members said he might be able to get one in the later part of last year but it never materialized.


----------



## plantbrain

You can see post trim regrowth, color difference is due to new light fixtures and 2 days of blackout due to fixture swap (Old Coralife to new ATI)
Time difference is about 9 days.


----------



## !shadow!

150EH said:


> It does look better than having the plants all smashed up against the glass.
> 
> It looks good Tom but it looks like all the little red roaches have left are they are hiding. It's seem the lace plants have a mind of their own, I've read journals where people claim it never grew until it got shaded by other plants and then it took off, and other claim the more light the better. I would like to get my hands on a A. crispus red but I haven't seen any in the states yet, one of our club members said he might be able to get one in the later part of last year but it never materialized.


I've read that lace plants love current and are better off in them. I wouldn't know what to tell you since i've never kept them but i've always thought of them as a interesting plant to keep.


----------



## plantbrain

Lace plants are found in rice paddies in the native regions............


----------



## ChadRamsey

beautiful Tom

how are you trimming the 049 exactly? from the pictures it appears that you are just stripping it of its leaves.


----------



## plantbrain

ChadRamsey said:


> beautiful Tom
> 
> how are you trimming the 049 exactly? from the pictures it appears that you are just stripping it of its leaves.


I just go to the base and pinch with my fingers. Maybe right above the gravel, I might miss a few stumps etc, but just leave those, they grow back and the pics tell the rest of the story. I just start on one side and keep snipping.
If you have more questions, you are honestly over thinking this.


----------



## MangyMoose77

Tom, please send this tank and all it's contents to:

My House
508 My Street
My Town, Pennsylvania

Thank you! 

This tank is absolutely ridiculous! Pretty much exactly what I have been envisioning. A big beautiful tank full of perfectly selected plant material and a massive school of cardinal tetras. Well done, sir. Well done!!


----------



## !shadow!

plantbrain said:


> Lace plants are found in rice paddies in the native regions............


oops looks like Im thinking about wrong plant lol. After a bit of research you are correct sorry for the misguided information. here is the link:

http://en.microcosmaquariumexplorer.com/wiki/Madagascar_Lace_Plant

under habitat.


----------



## FromLaredo

plantbrain said:


> You can see post trim regrowth, color difference is due to new light fixtures and 2 days of blackout due to fixture swap (Old Coralife to new ATI)
> Time difference is about 9 days.


Tom, what is the middle plant in the bottom pic?
thanks


----------



## doncityz

plantbrain said:


> Java fern is just there for now, waiting for the lace plants to fill in, 2 of the bulbs quickly rotted. Always had better luck with lace plants in cooler temps and plain sand vs ADA AS. They do not like the lower O2 levels in soils it would seem.
> 
> It's also about 84F which does not help much.


Noooooooo... this is how I like my tank!! full of cardinals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Awesome!! :biggrin:


----------



## plantbrain

FromLaredo said:


> Tom, what is the middle plant in the bottom pic?
> thanks


Same as the one in the front, it's all Starougyne, or Blyxa in the rear.
Look s sort of weird due to the 2 days without lighting.


----------



## plantbrain

The new ATI lights are running at 50%, this puts the watts at about 300W total and roughly 1.7W/gal.

I now run about 75 PAR vs 40 before.

Prior I ran 4x 96W PC with few color temp options.
So I save about 40$ a year electric and get nearly 2x the light.

If you include the added light, then I save 175$ per year.
So I'd have to use the lights about 10 years to recoup the difference.

But better growth, options, more plant growth = more sales of trimmings, so that will off set and just a nicer fixture, more options alone is worth something.

I'll move about this time next year I suspect, I'll sell just the glass tank and the oak stand, but keep everything else. I do not want to have to move this tank again.

I'll get a new tank, 72 X 26H X 30D

Somewhat similar layout.


----------



## plantbrain

Compare each of the 3 pics.

Roughly 16 days elapsed


----------



## prototyp3

Crazy fast growth rate. You've got a plant factory there.

I bought some from you a long time back and it just sat quietly for me. The tank was a neglected mess though, I'd be tempted to try again.


----------



## plantbrain

prototyp3 said:


> Crazy fast growth rate. You've got a plant factory there.
> 
> I bought some from you a long time back and it just sat quietly for me. The tank was a neglected mess though, I'd be tempted to try again.


Ah the perfect customer
haha

Well, it is an easy plant for me.


----------



## jcgd

Not that it shows any plant growing ability, but I took some repens I got and fired it in an emmersed setup to "store" it. It's since gone absolutely nuts and has filled in nice and dense, and very tall. Whenever I have too much I chop it and give it away - it's hard to find in up here unless you live in Vancouver. 

I just pour a few gallons of water in the tank every month or so. Been like that for close to a year. Eventually I'll get it in my tank.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

jcgd said:


> it's hard to find in up here unless you live in Vancouver.


That's because Tom helped us out by bringing a bunch up here!  Don't know if the ones I got now are part of that, as I left before Tom handed them out, but lots of people up here have them thanks to Tom and the people who grew them out from that batch.


----------



## plantbrain

This is the tank's 1st video 

http://youtu.be/V3VNwfNtNA0


----------



## roybot73

Very cool.


----------



## Brownthumb07

Looks great Tom!


----------



## jcgd

Omg Tom. You went to the dark side. Never thought I'd see a video from you.


----------



## plantbrain

jcgd said:


> Omg Tom. You went to the dark side. Never thought I'd see a video from you.


Well, that does not count the time I was on the news and 3 law enforcement agencies were after me....and.....well, I best shut up.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Nice vid Tom, but with all the water trickling noise, I think I have to go pee now.


----------



## accordztech

plantbrain said:


> This is the tank's 1st video
> 
> http://youtu.be/V3VNwfNtNA0


is that tank really that loud in terms of water splashing?


----------



## plantbrain

2wheelsx2 said:


> Nice vid Tom, but with all the water trickling noise, I think I have to go pee now.


Don't miss.


----------



## plantbrain

accordztech said:


> is that tank really that loud in terms of water splashing?


Not really.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

plantbrain said:


> Not really.


Are the Mame overflows quieter? Or is the sound the trickling from your wet/dry?


----------



## boon

Just 1 complaint. Where's the algae?  j/k. Awesome tank as always.


----------



## prototyp3

The tank looked great in photos, but even better in video. You get a better sense and appreciation of the setup in motion, super relaxing tank to watch. The cardinals in that school size work great, not as spastic as rummynose.


----------



## jkan0228

How big are the cardinals right now?


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> How big are the cardinals right now?


I'd say 1" for the runts up to 1.75" for the pigs.

They will get 30-50% larger than this in the next year or so.


----------



## DreamCatcher

lookin sweet =)


----------



## plantbrain

prototyp3 said:


> The tank looked great in photos, but even better in video. You get a better sense and appreciation of the setup in motion, super relaxing tank to watch. The cardinals in that school size work great, not as spastic as rummynose.


Yes, the cards do well in this tank and size.
Rummies have their place. 

Not in my tanks right now.........but......that could change someday.


----------



## jkan0228

How big were they to start with and how long did it take for them to get to their current size?


----------



## Mortarion

Beautiful tank Tom, I've been following it for a while.

In regards to your ATI lighting, what model is it, and what would you reccomend for a 115 gal 48x24x24 tank? Sorry for asking, but this is my first nice tank, and I really have no idea about lighting. I'm just after something that grows well with CO2 and is easily controlable, which is what you seem to have.


----------



## plantbrain

jkan0228 said:


> How big were they to start with and how long did it take for them to get to their current size?


They were tiny specks. This microrasboras babies.

About 3-4 months.


----------



## plantbrain

Mortarion said:


> Beautiful tank Tom, I've been following it for a while.
> 
> In regards to your ATI lighting, what model is it, and what would you reccomend for a 115 gal 48x24x24 tank? Sorry for asking, but this is my first nice tank, and I really have no idea about lighting. I'm just after something that grows well with CO2 and is easily controlable, which is what you seem to have.


Sunpower with the dimmcomputer.
I'd use an 8x 48" fixture if I were you, then adjust the dimming down to suit.

This way you get nice light spread and bulb color choices.........but do not need high light, but it's there if you want to use it and for however long and wherever in the light cycle.


----------



## Mortarion

That makes sense to me, thanks!


----------



## radioman

When I'm done with college and moving around, this is the type of tank I am planning on doing. I love the simpler tanks.


----------



## plantbrain

I have a few red species in the background that I will try and see how the overall look is. I might add the S belem and others back later. 

If you look in the top Left on the filter box, you will see Sturisoma eggs and the male guarding them. Breeding just fine. These are F2 fry now and the parents have never seen another aquarium.


----------



## plantbrain

I took a pic today and will post that....and the post trim pic tomorrow night.
Fairly big hack today.


----------



## Amandas tank

Wow! Simply elegant. Nice job.


----------



## plantbrain

Added Crypt aponogetiifolia and moved the Rotala sunset over to this tank.
These should do nicely in this tank. 

Ammannia got too large, too fast.
Erio setaceum gets too crowded as other plants fill in back in the rear of the tank.

It's more a farm section behind the Blyxa and wood right now.


----------



## alipper

Holy cow, AWESOME tank. Great work.


----------



## sanj

Tom,

I use ATI powerchromes on my 400g but they are 4x54W x2 raised up pretty high.

They are pre dimmable models. 

I was wondering if you know anything about power consumption with dimming on these units?

I get the impression that it is not proportional, but im not sure.


----------



## plantbrain

sanj said:


> Tom,
> 
> I use ATI powerchromes on my 400g but they are 4x54W x2 raised up pretty high.
> 
> They are pre dimmable models.
> 
> I was wondering if you know anything about power consumption with dimming on these units?
> 
> I get the impression that it is not proportional, but im not sure.


No, it's not proportional, or pout another way, linear. 
So say 50% is not 50% less power.

But it is 50% less light PAR, and it's more like say 40%. 
I was interested in this and a Kill A Watt meter is easy to measure these kW's at various % intensities.


----------



## sanj

Hi,

that does still seem quite a good amount of reduction in electricity consumption though.

If I am understanding right, you measured the 40% reduction in power consumption at 50% dimming with the Kill a Watt meter. 

My tank is 36" wide and although I get reasonable PAR with the existing units (40-50 at substrate, 30 at the extremes)when all tubes are on. Bearing in mind the lights are raised 3.5ft above the substrate. 

I did wonder if two 8x54w units would be better in terms of visual light spread, colour rendition and I could even lower the lights. It is a lot of money though. So it is good to know that if I reduced the intensity the power utilisation would drop substantially. 

I dont know if you have seen anything like this on your units but, I bought these ATIs in July 2010 and I am still using the same tubes, the PAR out put has dropped significantly. I used to be able to get 30-40 PAR and 25 at the extremes with just half the tubes on, the other day I measured it and it was around 20. Part of this could be down to more vegetation, but that would only be a small part. I thought fluorescent tubes dropped only around 10% in thier life time, maybe that was not PAR.


----------



## Canadapleco

What is the foreground plant? Im new to plants and love that carpet!


----------



## plantbrain

_Starougyne repens._


----------



## waterfaller1

Always a pleasure. Loved the video.


----------



## Fuzz

Really cool tank! Just seeing the thread for the first time today and went through to see the progress it's made. Really like the wood and what you've done with the plants. I wish I could do a tank this big sometime. Good job!


----------



## plantbrain

Been awhile:

Removed:

Lace plants, mini butterfly, Rotala sunset.

Added:

Crypt aponogetifolia

Left the more obvious stuff, but the pantanal and Erio Type 3, hard to see since they were trimmed low.

Had only 1-2 stems, but now I have about 15, but most got toasted due to overgrowth of the Mini butterfly and crowded them.

Elatine hydropiper does very well entangled in the moss at the left top where the wood pokes up and out of the water. It's submersed, but the fish and larger shrimp cannot bother it much up there. Does fine with water column ferts only.
Temp is 84F in this tank, so temp, light/CO2/ferts have nothing to do with my problems establishing it. Fish and shrimp picking at it and uprooting does.


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## 2wheelsx2

What I want to know is how you keep that wood so consistently algae free, Tom. Scrub with a toothbrush every week during the water change?


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## plantbrain

2wheelsx2 said:


> What I want to know is how you keep that wood so consistently algae free, Tom. Scrub with a toothbrush every week during the water change?


No, I have not touched the wood in, well.....I cannot recall the last time. 
I got a little BBA, but fixed the CO2 2-3x over the years, but that's about it.

I can add all sorts of vile algae covered plants in this tank, nothing survives(algae, plants do great).


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## synaethetic

Nice cardinal school, that wood is great. Malaysian driftwood, right? 

Would you say that your blyxa is maxed out in height?


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## plantbrain

synaethetic said:


> Nice cardinal school, that wood is great. Malaysian driftwood, right?
> 
> Would you say that your blyxa is maxed out in height?


No, western cedar from the Eel River, CA.

No Blyxa is a stem plant, it'll keep growing up.


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## I<3<*))))><

Stunning tank!!! But you already know this, hehe.
The hardscape is out of this world.

Hoping to get some of your epic wood here soonish... got a new tank idea in mind!


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## synaethetic

I have seen pictures of the Eel river. Looks absolutely breathtaking. Will have to travel up north to see if for myself one of these days.


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## plantbrain

synaethetic said:


> I have seen pictures of the Eel river. Looks absolutely breathtaking. Will have to travel up north to see if for myself one of these days.


Keep going and head up to Prairie Creek Redwood State park and Redwood National Park.

http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=415

2 of the deepest densest forest on the planet. 

Around the Eel river: The Lost Coast Drive is awesome, Mattole road loop from Ferndale etc. You can drive out to the beach where the Eel meets the ocean, just do not get stuck. My friend lives right there and we can walk down with Kayaks and paddle right on out and back from his house.


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## Aganor

Hi Tom, i started my HC DSM based on this topic that you made and in my case it isnt being that easy 

My main problem is when i allow too much humity and constant spray as told, i get an invasion of white fuzzy fungus and now its killing all my HC with some exceptions and im not seeing them grow at all,

Im at the 2nd week and the rate they are melting and browning/yellowing is behond normal,
Even the ones that grown the most are dying with fungus under them..

The soil is a fresh new ADA New Amazonia, always moist even withut constant spraying
Got 124x0.1w Led in 2 fixures adding some nice light
Tank is a 54liter 60x30x30

Im desperate, i even added hydrogen peroxide to try to kill the fungus but did nothing 
If i add vinegar noew i dont believe the HC will endure it..i guess i have to order more HC and do the standard method instead


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## AquaAurora

Have you tried rasping fish (plecos) with aged/orderless cedar woods?


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## badmojo1974

Nice setup, I just subscribed. I haven't read all the pages yet. Did you ever add the Hatchets? I have had a problem with them getting out of the tank....


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## Fat Guy

I really like this tank. I like how the cardinals congregate near the driftwood.


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## BettaBettas

update?


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## vvDO

BettaBettas said:


> update?




This tank is no more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BettaBettas

vvDO said:


> This tank is no more.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I cry every tiem


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## Nigel95

Nice hardscape, good looking tank overall


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