# Help for a beginner



## AquaStudent (Jan 4, 2011)

Hey! Welcome to the forums.

You're saltwater fishkeeping experience should help you with the control of the parameters in your tank. As for low light/low tech it'll be diffucult to grow a carpet plant under those conditions. It's not impossible but you'll have to chose your plant selection carefully.

Marsilea Quadrifolia is my personal favorite carpet plant and should be able to carpet even in low lighting conditions. Co2 injection (DIY with yeast and sugar is pretty simple) is helpful but be careful to not gas your fish. It's something that you'll watch for and act on if it happens.

I stay with smaller setups because I move to and from my college dorm too often so I'll let other people comment on lighting for a 40 breeder.

As for your equipment, just about everything will still be useful. Powerheads can be helpful but many fish won't enjoy the current. It just depends on what you stock the tank with.

Have you thought about the fauna stocking?

Either way welcome to the fresh side of the hobby and I look forward to seeing your setup in the future. I have some tutorial videos on DIY C02 and other freshwater tank care on my youtube channel (linked in sig).

Cheers!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

One of the biggest changes between SW and FW planted setups is that FW don't need nearly as much light as corals.

If you plan on going with T5HOs and CO2 for this tank, it will be a high light/high tech setup, not low light.

If you want to stick with low light, then you'll want to use T5NO rather than T5HO, and only 2 rows of bulbs.


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

So i can use equipment that was used in a SW setup for FW tank? What equipment would you recommend for filtration?

I would like to stay away from co2, maybe do the sugar and yeast DIY thing.

As for the T5's, i would probably just do two bulbs over the 40 gallon.

I admit i do not know the plants very well at all, but i would want something a little more grass like? than Marsilea Quadrifolia.

Whats the story with this stuff? Saggitaria Dwarf


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

Thanks for the help, i appreciate it. I have a ton of questions.

Haha i have been looking up some plants, and the prices are making me laugh compared to coral. Not bad.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

sixspeed said:


> So i can use equipment that was used in a SW setup for FW tank? What equipment would you recommend for filtration?
> 
> I would like to stay away from co2, maybe do the sugar and yeast DIY thing.
> 
> ...


Just clean any SW residue and deposits as best you can. Most people seem to like canister filters for filtration. I run a canister filter and a power head with a sponge on my 40 gallon.

It will likely take much longer to get a carpet without CO2, also plants have a tendency to grow longer without CO2. Several ways you can combat this issue. First, choosing the right plants. The dwarf sag should work ok. Second dose Excel if you aren't going to inject CO2. Third do DIY CO2, this can be in the form of sugar/yeast mixtures or what I would recommend DIY PAINTBALL setup.


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

that looks like a pretty simple DIY.

Would you recommend running a sump with a planted tank?


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

sixspeed said:


> that looks like a pretty simple DIY.
> 
> Would you recommend running a sump with a planted tank?


I think you run into problems off gassing your CO2 when using a sump. There are ways to get around this or limit it I think, but I'm don't use CO2 or sumps so I dunno. 

Either way, sumps can be used in planted tanks


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

This tank is on the big side to go with DIY CO2; unless you go pressurized, it's hard to get good, consistent levels with tanks much bigger than about 20gal.

There are definitely some plants that will carpet in low light, but adding a bit more light and CO2 opens the door to many more plant options. On the other hand, the plants will grow much more quickly and it will be much more work on your end to trim and maintain the tank to look nice.

IMO it would be much easier in the long run to decide first which way you want to go- high tech or low tech- and then start picking out plants and deciding what equipment you can and can't use.

Sumps CAN be used on high tech setups, but they generally have to be modified to lower CO2 loss. Most people prefer closed-loop canister filters and inline heaters.

Marselia quadrifolia can carpet, but does best with CO2 and is generally slow-growing. Marselia minuta does much better in tanks without CO2, but still is slow-growing. Lilaeopsis mauritiana may be more your cup of tea if you want a nice grassy plant that does not need CO2. That's the plant I have carpeting my own 29 and 90gals. E. tenellus 'narrow' and 'red' are what I have in my 46gal for the carpet (I don't run CO2 on any of my own tanks). Dwarf Sag can work for carpeting very big tanks, but probably would be better as a midground plant for a 40gal as it often grows 6-8" tall.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

lauraleellbp said:


> This tank is on the big side to go with DIY CO2; unless you go pressurized, it's hard to get good, consistent levels with tanks much bigger than about 20gal.
> 
> There are definitely some plants that will carpet in low light, but adding a bit more light and CO2 opens the door to many more plant options. On the other hand, the plants will grow much more quickly and it will be much more work on your end to trim and maintain the tank to look nice.
> 
> ...


Good point, that paintball CO2 I linked is probably reaches its limits of effectiveness on tanks somewhere around 40-50 gallons. If I ever put CO2 on my 40 gallon breeder that paintball setup will be what I use unless I come across a bigger setup before that. 

The yeast/sugar DIY setups are more suited for tanks under 20 gallons as Laura suggested.


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

Are there dosing options for CO2, i have seen people mention excel... or is that for micronutrients?

I am thinking about using a 30 gallon high that i have instead of a 40 breeder, this way i can avoid purchasing another 40. Would 1 or 2 decent sized HOB filter work for a 30 gallon setup? Would i need another powerhead? Is there a certain turnover rate i am looking for?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Excel is an alternative carbon source and can be used instead of CO2 in many cases (plus is an effective algaecide against several different forms of algae), but it will get expensive dosing it on a larger tank.

You can use HOB filters if you want, no problem at all if you're not injecting CO2 (gas) into your tank. 

There is no really good turnover guideline for planted tanks; what you really need to consider are mechanical filtration (planted tanks produce TONS of debris) and flow (make sure that debris gets sucked in and avoid dead spots). Those needs will vary from tank to tank.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

I use to HOB filters on my 29, they work great. 

I am daily dosing Excel on both my 29 and 40 and I'm getting good results. I am also doing Tom Barrs "EI dosing light for less techy folks" you can find a thread on that at the barrreport forum.

I got my lfs to order me a 2 Liter bottle of Excel and they were kind enough only to charge me what it cost them which was around $32-$34 dollars. I should last me at least 6 months doing daily doses on both my tanks.


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

what size HOB would you recommend?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

For a 40gal I'd probably go with 2 AquaClear 70s. I'm a fan of AquaClears b/c they have such big media compartment and you can customize the media (I usually replace the carbon with a bag of Purigen).


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

for a 30? well on my 29 Im running a aqueon 30 and a top fin 30.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

lauraleellbp said:


> For a 40gal I'd probably go with 2 AquaClear 70s. I'm a fan of AquaClears b/c they have such big media compartment and you can customize the media (I usually replace the carbon with a bag of Purigen).


I think he said he was gonna go with a 30 he had already, would this recommendation still apply?


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

Yup 30 it is.

I was thinking about maybe doing 1 aquaclear 110 (500), and a marineland peguin bio-wheel filter (whatever model will fit next to the AC).


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

I like that combo because their intakes are on different sides, so they can be on the far sides of the tank.


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

As for fish, i am thinking about just doing 10-15 neon tetras or some schooling fish.

Are there such things as clean up crews for freshwater? If so, what should i be looking at getting?


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

sixspeed said:


> As for fish, i am thinking about just doing 10-15 neon tetras or some schooling fish.
> 
> Are there such things as clean up crews for freshwater? If so, what should i be looking at getting?


good idea about the filters, I have my HOB on opposite ends of my tank.

sounds like a good plan for the fish.

cory catfish will eat any leftover food that reaches the bottom, shrimp (like amano or red cherry shrimp) will eat leftover food and some algae, ottocilinus will eat some types of algae and some dwarf plecos (like bristlenose) will eat algae and left over food.

for a 30 gallon I would get the schooling fish like you suggested. then also get 5 corys of some type and maybe some shrimp


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

What kind of time frame am i looking at for cycling the tank? Do i cycle it with plants already in there? Do i need a fish bio-load for the cycle?


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

What should i be feeding my tank inhabitants? Am i going back to flake food? What the is general consensus on food?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The more plants you have, the more quickly the cycle should go, as the plants become part of the tank's biofilter. You can consider live plants the same as you would live rock in a SW setup.

Do you already have any other tanks up and running? If you do, you can pull over some mulm/established media from it and really jump-start the cycle.

You do need to use some sort of ammonia source (I recommend doing a fishless cycle on the tank); plenty of options there including the dead cocktail shrimp, using fish food, dosing pure ammonia...

I feed my fish a rotating variety of foods. A good staple flake (I like the foods from www.KensFish.com, www.AngelsPlus.com, Omega One, New Life Spectrum, etc), usually some sinking wafers for bottomfeeders (all my fish adore the Hikari sinking catfish wafers), and lots of frozen foods- again, Hikari brand bloodworms, brine shrimp, daphnia, and mysis shrimp. Also I throw in fresh organic veggies pretty often for my shrimp and catfish- Romaine lettuce especially.


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## AquaStudent (Jan 4, 2011)

I did a writeup on another community on how to cycle an aquarium.

http://fishtanktv.com/forum/topics/how-to-cycle-an-aquarium-pond

My favorite method is to get used filter media from a system that's already cycled. That will instantly cycle your aquarium and you can immediately add fish.

There's also the live fish cycle with is controversial to some people. A few hardy fish that can withstand some amounts of ammonia and nitrite can be added to a tank. If you end up taking this route please purchase an API Freshwater Master Test Kit. This will allow you to monitor parameters and do partial water changes if levels get too high.

Another method is doing a fishless cycle by adding ammonia to the aquarium. This allows the bacteria to form and doesn't put any lives at risk. I am not too experienced with this method because I usually use the first method. I have heard that you should crank up your water temp (you may not want to put plants in if you're cranking up the temp) to provide optimal conditions for bacteria growth.

You should cycle your aquarium with the plants already inside(unless stated above). Some of the plant matter will decay and help with the cycle. They will also help lower nitrates at the end of the cycle. Your plants will also need to acclimate...just like fish. The first few weeks they probably won't look too hot but once they get accustomed to their new home (as long as the conditions are proper) then they will grow.


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

Alright, this crash course is awesome. Thanks everyone.

What is a cheap/inexpensive/easy substrate route i could take?


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

sixspeed said:


> Alright, this crash course is awesome. Thanks everyone.
> 
> What is a cheap/inexpensive/easy substrate route i could take?


depends on a few factors.

do you plan on having rooted plants?
do you want those rooted plants to thrive?
do you plan or think you will be moving plants around?


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## nkambae (Feb 26, 2007)

*couple of things...*

There is some great advice to be found here and I can only add a few things which occurred to me as I read through the posts. I concur that Excel can get expensive in a hurry. Google Metricide and order some as a substitute for Excel. One can get a gallon shipped to their door for around $20. Excel has about 1.5% glutaraldehyde and Metricide contains about 2.6%. So you will have to dose a bit less to maintain the levels suggested by Seachem. Or you can dose at normal levels like I do and call it good. I dose glutaraldehyde when I change water and again once or twice a week between water changes. It isn't necessary but can be beneficial to add some ferts after you water change. I dose very light and it seems to help.

I think the most important thing about choosing a substrate is that you be confident about it. I have used dirt from a wooded area near my house, worm castings, rich black silty dirt from a freshly turned farm field in the Red River Valley, cheap topsoil from the orange big box store, mineralized top soil, and I have mixed and matched all of the above. You know what? They all work and grow plants very nicely. And best yet, it is cheap!They only thing I would suggest for a cap is that it not be the larger sized aquarium gravel. I use the smaller grained Red Flint (just a bit more coarse than sand). You should be able to get a 100 lb bag for around $15 at a sand blast or agg supplier near you. 

I usually use 1 1/2-2" of dirt and about the same for a cap. I screen the dirt to get the really big chunks out. I find that the roots have an easier time penetrating the dirt if I mix some of the cap into it as well. Usually about 5:1 dirt to cap. It seems to lessen the possibility of anaerobic pockets developing. I also sprinkle a bit of laterite in the bottom of the tank. and mix it into the dirt. Sometimes I put a few pellets of Osmocote Plus into the dirt as well. 

I then wet the dirt with a bunch of mulm from the sponges of one of my canister filters. Time to plant! I pack the tank with plants. Save your pennies and buy LOTS of plants. When I start tanks in this manner I have no cycle to worry about. I can add fish immediately and have no concern about ammonia or nitrite spikes. This method will not work if you only put a dozen or two plants in your tanks. It will work best if you stuff it full! Adding some water lettuce and or frogbit can help as well. The floating plants are useful in soaking up excess nutrients and can aid in moderating light.

The key to making this low tech method work is to not have too much light. Light drives the equation. More light means more and faster growth which demands ferts and co2. Dial back the light and you don't have the fast growth and demand for nutrients. Read the stickies on lighting and do a search in the low tech section on lighting. 

I hope this helps a bit and I wish you good luck. If you are interested I have a short vid of one of our tanks on youtube. Good luck.

http://www.youtube.com/user/1stufish?feature=mhee

stu


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

if i had 48w of T5HO over a 29 gallon, is that still low tech? what if i had it raised significantly?


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

sixspeed said:


> if i had 48w of T5HO over a 29 gallon, is that still low tech? what if i had it raised significantly?


is that the two bulb light? If so you would need to raise it one foot (maybe even more) off the top of the tank to avoid injecting CO2.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

sixspeed said:


> Alright, this crash course is awesome. Thanks everyone.
> 
> What is a cheap/inexpensive/easy substrate route i could take?


There's literally tons of options out there, and debating dirt is one of a planted tanker's favorite pasttimes!!! ROFL

My current favorite method is about an inch of Miracle Gro Organic Choice potting soil capped with about 2" of Flourite.


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

I like the sound of picking my substrate up at a big box store.

To Kamikaze: It is going to be the 24" 4 bulb arrangement, but i will only run two of the bulbs.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

lauraleellbp said:


> My current favorite method is about an inch of Miracle Gro Organic Choice potting soil capped with about 2" of Flourite.


This is my favorite method as well and I used it in my 40 gallon, except I used 1.5 inches of Miracle Gro Organic Choice potting mix with a 1.5 to 2 inch cap of lfs, smallest grain pea gravel. 

The advantage to using flourite as the cap is it provides nutrients to the plants longer than the soil will. At least that's what I have read, don't know if there have been any real studies to test that though.


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## sixspeed (Sep 28, 2011)

Ok, so i did a search on flourite. 

What option is best? is there a difference?

The black sand variety, is the only one that would seem to be different. Whats up with this?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Get whichever one you like best.

My personal favorite is the Black, though one of these days I'm going to order some Dark for comparison.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

sixspeed said:


> Ok, so i did a search on flourite.
> 
> What option is best? is there a difference?
> 
> The black sand variety, is the only one that would seem to be different. Whats up with this?


they all have the same nutrients, some just have different amounts of the nutrients. As far as the benefits of one over another I have no clue. I'm too cheap to use flourite.


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