# Shelf-life / stability of Flourish Excel?



## Stan the Man (Dec 12, 2005)

I was wondering if anyone knows how long you can store Flourish Excel? The reason is that I was thinking of buying a large jug of it (2 liters) on Big Al's, since it's cheaper in the long run than buying a 500 or 250 mL bottle. However, I only have a 30g planted tank and a 2 liter jug of Excel would last a long time, and I wouldn't want it to go bad before using it all up.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Being an isomer of glutaraldehyde (a surgical disinfectant), I would guess it's the same as stabilized glutaraldehyde - 2 years.

http://www.durotec.com/Products/gtae1unique.htm


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Keep the container tightly closed, as Glutaraldehyde is a gas, if I remember my embalming chemistry correctly (it isn't a surgical disinfectant solely). You also want to be sure to keep it in it's opaque container. Light will compromise it.

Mike


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

As long as you don't have a UV sterilizer you should be good. I'm pretty sure ultraviolet light will destroy it with great speed.


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## Stan the Man (Dec 12, 2005)

Thanks for all your rapid replies! I've also emailed Seachem and will post their response when received. Getting a big jug of Flourish Excel (especially with the upcoming 20% sale at Big Al's) is almost too good of deal to pass up!


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

According to Seachem, Flourish Excel is an isomer of C5H8O2 developed by them and is much less reactive than other isomers of glutaraldehyde. They say they have applied for a patent and when/if it's granted, they'll publish their info (formula, etc.). So I would suspect it has an even longer shelf life and would be less susceptible to light and UV. (That's just my guess though and I'm no chemist.) Excel used to ship in a transparent container. They also used to add a dye to give it a slight purple tint, but they've stopped doing this.


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

You can also store it in the fridge to further insure a long shelf life.
I was gonna get 50% pure gluteraldehyde, but due to hazzardous shipping,a nd the requirement that it be cold shipped, it cost as much to ship as it did for a gallon fo the stuff, so I bailed.


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## Stan the Man (Dec 12, 2005)

Here's the reply I got from Seachem:

Flourish excel does not "expire". Once opened you can further increase quality of product by refrigerating, although this is not necessary. Keep in room temperature as large flux in temperatures can "degrade" quality, none the less it is still useable. 
-- 
Seachem Technical Support ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ja 
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

Stan the Man said:


> Here's the reply I got from Seachem:
> 
> Flourish excel does not "expire". Once opened you can further increase quality of product by refrigerating, although this is not necessary. Keep in room temperature as large flux in temperatures can "degrade" quality, none the less it is still useable.
> --
> ...


I might be missing something, but does that response strike anyone else as having a rather high BS quotient?

-If the product doesn't "expire", how does refrigeration "increase quality?"
I don't read "increase quality" as synonymous with "prevent degradation." Do they mean "increase shelflife?" If so, by how much?

-Is refrigeration preferable to maintaining at constant room temp? Exactly why? 

-What size/frequency/duration of temp variations do they consider "large fluxes?" Do they take any steps to prevent such "fluxes" during shipping and storage? I'd bet temps in my home are more consistent that in many if not most trucks, shipping containers, and warehouses.

Nothing against Seachem or their products. But I just kinda get annoyed by noninformative "information" such as this that, in my mind, raises more questions than it answers.


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

No, I don't see a high BS quotient...I don't see any BS in fact.

It doesn't expire because it doesn't 'go bad' and become dangerous. It simply degrades into useless product over a long time, especially if stored in shifting extreme temps.
Cooler temps mean molecules move slower, break down slower, etc. So, like 'magic' keepign it in the fridge extends the life of the useable product.

I think you're being overly critical.
If you really wanna know, go to www.plantgeek.com and ask the Seachem rep that maintains the seachem forum there. He's a nice guy. Or call Seachem, since their number is already posted in the thread.


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

Perhaps reasonable minds might well vary.

For them to say refrigeration "increases quality," to me that seems to pretty clearly imply that refrigerated excel will be of higher "increased" quality than room temperature excel. Which is pretty clearly ludicrous - as well as completely unspecific. How is the increased quality quantified? Is it stronger? Purer? 

What they apparently actually mean to say is that refrigeration will prevent degradation that may occur if exposed to large temperature fluxes over time.
I'm not going to apologize for my belief that the English language is sufficiently nuanced to allow its users to choose the words that actually mean what they intend to convey.

And how large of temperature swings and what time span are they talking about? This is a company that presumes to represent its products as adhering to some pretty darn precise specs. People buy their products, relying on these representations. 

But I expect a little more precision from chemists. Maybe my expectations/standards for chemists - as well as English speakers, are higher than yours.

And I don't "really want to know" as I don't currently use excel or any other Seachem products.


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

Now children....lets play nice.


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## Stan the Man (Dec 12, 2005)

Well I ended up emailing Seachem support to see if they could clarify their statements a bit. If I get a reply, I'll post it here. 

Ultimately what I care about is: if the Excel slowly degrades over time, then should I compensate for the presence of the degraded product by dosing a larger amount over time?

I'm probably being over picky and technical... please forgive me. :icon_roll


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## Stan the Man (Dec 12, 2005)

I received a follow up response from Seachem today (It's attached below in italics). Excel should be refrigerated after opening to minimize degradation. The only unclear issues are how to determine the amount of degradation present, and how quickly this degradation occurs at room temperature (e.g., 50% over 1 yr, or 2 yrs?). And they refer to "only supplement according to what the test indicates"; I'm not clear what test they're referring to. Ah well, I figure that I've bothered them enough for now with my emails so I'll have to ponder that last statement.  

_Greetings,

This product will be fine at room temperature, after opening the 
product, refrigerating the product will help to resist quality 
degradation. For example, a product that is shipped to wisconson in 
winter, might experience a quality degradation issue, due to below 
freezing temperatures, of which a refrigerator does not typically 
employ. If you were to leave the bottle in room temperature after 
opening, the product is fine, however, some degradation could occur.

As far as product compensation for degradation, one would only supplement according to what the test indicates.
-- _


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

> For example, a product that is shipped to wisconson in
> winter, might experience a quality degradation issue, due to below
> freezing temperatures, of which a refrigerator does not typically
> employ.


Could someone please explain to me what this means? The degradation will have occurred during shipping before you even open it? In my ignorance I would have assumed their example would involve shipping to Arizona in the summer.

Oh well. I guess the bottom line is you probably shouldn't worry about it so long as you keep it within the range of average room temps.


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

I think part of the issue is, the rep at SeaChem doesn't know what Excel does...otherwise they'd know there's no hobby grade kit for testing 'liquid carbon supplements'.

Perhaps the biggest issue is that SeaChem is still learning what Excel does and how to best maintain a bottle of it.
Why do I say this? Well most people know that Excel also kills off algae, especially those who have graduated to using 25-50% grade Gluteraldehyde. However SeaChem doesn't market it that way, because they didn't do testing to prove it, so the FDA (or whoever mandates our supplements) won't let them market it as an algicide.

Also, from hanging out at plantgeek in teh Seachem forum there, I've learned that several plant species are sensitive to Excel, namely anachris and vallisneria sp. You won't find that on their label either.

Thus I think they're learning about Excel as quickly as we are...probably due to our questions and input.

Stan, you may have better luck researching how gluteraldehyde degrades (I know cold storage is needed for 50% grade, but not 25%...I think SeaChem may be 'winging it' by advising cold storage for Excel...then again they did change the chemical structure, perhaps its highly unstable at higher temps).

eds, I gotta admit I didn't read your post thoroughly enough, and didn't pick up on what you clarified. I agree they used poor wording in stating that refridgeration increases quality. I knew what they meant and thus read it that way...indeed others may not pick up on their error and think that cold storage produces Super Excel


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## Stan the Man (Dec 12, 2005)

malkore said:


> I knew what they meant and thus read it that way...indeed others may not pick up on their error and think that cold storage produces Super Excel


Hey that would be a great entrepreneurial enterprise. We could take Excel bottles, chill them in the refrigerator to increase their quality, and remarket it as Super Excel! :hihi:

In all seriousness, I have to give Seachem credit for putting this product on the market, since I subjectively believe that it has improved my plant growth and cut down on the algae in my tank. As well, their email support has been very quick (reply within 24 hrs or less).


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

For the record, my anacharis has never experienced problems with Excel. I even dose (according to the label) five times the "normal" dose after a 40% water change.


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

eds said:


> Perhaps reasonable minds might well vary.
> 
> For them to say refrigeration "increases quality," to me that seems to pretty clearly imply that refrigerated excel will be of higher "increased" quality than room temperature excel. Which is pretty clearly ludicrous - as well as completely unspecific. How is the increased quality quantified? Is it stronger? Purer?
> 
> ...


I think it's as simple as lower temeratures (and apparently more stable temperatures) will keep Excel at it's maximum effectiveness. Kind of like how the more you let Coke "breathe" the more it goes flat. According to Seachem, the product will never get to a point where it's dangerous. Seachem seems like a very responsible company in an industry that is full of snake oils.


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

malkore said:


> However SeaChem doesn't market it that way, because they didn't do testing to prove it, so the FDA (or whoever mandates our supplements) won't let them market it as an algicide.


Their is definitely no government regulation of aquarium supplements. You can tell because the vast majority are useless. The government only steps in when there are certain substances involved. I am pretty sure that they don't even regulate health supplements that are intended for human consumption.


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

Hypancistrus said:


> For the record, my anacharis has never experienced problems with Excel. I even dose (according to the label) five times the "normal" dose after a 40% water change.


There are some plants that are susceptible to Excel OD. I saw Riccia and Valisneria affected (melting) at 2x dose, and I am sure there are more.


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## Jerm (Sep 26, 2005)

eds said:


> And I don't "really want to know" as I don't currently use excel or any other Seachem products.


You use flourite :hihi:


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

You got me there, *JERM*! 
Like I said in my first post, tho, nothing against the company. I had used their ferts in the past before going over to the dark/EI side.

I made my comments came for a couple of reasons. 
-One, I'm a lawyer by trade, so perhaps I'm a little critical of the degree of precision I expect in terms of answers to specific questions, or ambiguous/confusion uses of the language. If you don't know, simply say so rather than trying to BS.
-Two, my best friend locally who is also into planted tanks, is a chemist by trade, so I'm familiar with the insane level of precision accepted as standard in that business. It struck me as silly that a company that brands its products as being accurate to the incredible ppm specs listed on Seachem trace for example, would permit a response that appeared to advocate refrigeration to create "Super excel."
-Third, a personal peeve of mine is when salepeople or company reps give answers that are really non-answers, expecting the customer to be satisfied with non-informative blather. I especially dislike it when someone tarts up their empty BS with fancy words to try to make it appear "expert."

Again, Seachem seems to be a fine company. And I should have kept my mouth (fingers?) shut as I don't really have a dog in this fight. Just posting now to let you know where I was coming from.

Now excuse me while I get outta my rocking chair to yell at them darned neighborhood kids to get off my lawn.


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## krazykidd86 (Jul 27, 2005)

Hmm, I agree with ed there was ambigious diction. But anyways...returning to the point.

Is it safe to say that a 2 liter bottle will at least a year with good quality?
or is better just to get smaller bottles of the stuff when I need it...hmmm Whatcha think?


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

co2 said:


> Their is definitely no government regulation of aquarium supplements.


I hope you're ready to eat those words. 



malkore said:


> Well most people know that Excel also kills off algae, especially those who have graduated to using 25-50% grade Gluteraldehyde. However SeaChem doesn't market it that way, because they didn't do testing to prove it, so the FDA (or whoever mandates our supplements) won't let them market it as an algicide.


Good theory, but proving their product has algaecidal properties is actually not the problem.

If you make the claim that a substance controls algae, it instantly becomes classified as a pesticide by the U.S. EPA, and is subject to all the laws and regulations regarding pesticides.

Even something as innocuous as barley straw is considered a pesticide by the EPA, *if* the seller claims it is an algaecide.

And the active ingredient in Excel, which is technically not gluteraldehyde but some variant thereof, is not registered with the EPA. It has not been tested for environmental safety, etc. Doing so would be a royal pain in the arse for Seachem.

Here's the tricky part. EPA regulations do not apply to your aquarium. That is a private body of water, and you can put whatever you want in it. No worries for Seachem there.

But if Seachem *were* to claim Excel is an algaecide, every time someone did a water change and poured the water down the drain, the EPA would view it as the release of an unregistered pesticide into the environment.

This is why Seachem has no plans of marketing Excel as an algaecide.


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

Sorry to bump a thread over a year old, but I noticed something that I wanted to point out and see if anyone has any insight.

I had some samples of Excel that I got from the AGA Convention in November, and they were stored in the garage all winter (yes, dumb, I know).

Generally I'd say "fresh" Excel smells kinda like pumpkins. Well this stuff that's been outside all winter smells HORRIBLE. Like rotten pumpkins maybe. Nasty! 

Think it's gone "bad"? They say it will never be harmful, but I've never seen anything change smell so drastically. I'd be nervous to use it.


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## LeapingGnome (Apr 15, 2007)

The freeze-thaw-freeze-thaw cycle has probably messed it up. I would just throw it out.


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