# FULL SPECTRUM - what does that mean and are manufacturer's lying to us?!



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

Everyone uses the term "FULL SPECTRUM" lighting loosely and applies it all types of lighting. What the does that really mean? And can it be interchangeably used with ALL lamp types? If you say yes then it means MH, HPS, CFL, Tubes AND LED's offer "full spectrum" lighting which clearly is false. Not only are humans virtually blind to what full spectrum actually is, what we view as visible light is so narrow and forgiving. Plant know, we don't... btw anyone who tells me today's LED's offer "full spectrum" lighting, I would say "not yet, maybe in a few more years... but I bet the manufacturer's would want you to believe so!" (ie HPS is a "full spectrum " lamp sold as a grow light for indoor gardening...um am i color blind or is that light red? don't believe the hype!)

tube flourecents probabbly offer the best rendering of what plants can percieve as true spectrum... look at don's (broyer) tank. using a full range of lamps from 6500-10000 as well as pink bulbs he is able to capture something close to the sun... but that's just my opinion, but its hard for me not to believe his plants, they don't lie.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

thefisherman said:


> Everyone uses the term "FULL SPECTRUM" lighting loosely and applies it all types of lighting. What the does that really mean? And can it be interchangeably used with ALL lamp types? If you say yes then it means MH, HPS, CFL, Tubes AND LED's offer "full spectrum" lighting which clearly is false. Not only are humans virtually blind to what full spectrum actually is, what we view as visible light is so narrow and forgiving. Plant know, we don't... btw anyone who tells me today's LED's offer "full spectrum" lighting, I would say "not yet, maybe in a few more years... but I bet the manufacturer's would want you to believe so!" (ie HPS is a "full spectrum " lamp sold as a grow light for indoor gardening...um am i color blind or is that light red? don't believe the hype!)
> 
> tube flourecents probabbly offer the best rendering of what plants can percieve as true spectrum... look at don's (broyer) tank. using a full range of lamps from 6500-10000 as well as pink bulbs he is able to capture something close to the sun... but that's just my opinion, but its hard for me not to believe his plants, they don't lie.


HPS are full spectrum, just not spectrally sun balanced .











I agree that the term "full spectrum" is a bit misused... 

Tube flour are not the most "efficient".. there phosphors have peaks, valleys, and gaps..they are far from "full spectrum" .
LEDs can be very good "targeted spectrum w/ little waste "energy"

















http://www.orchidboard.com/community/growing-under-lights/63236-aquarium-led-fixtures-2.html


There are "exceptions" though a lot of that "daylight" is mostly unnecessary for plants........


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

that is a great diagram sir! sun balanced now that's a good term


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

awesome chart! doesn't LED have gaps as well.. keyword "targetted" Not disputing the efficiency of LED's


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Probably the only real full spectrum light is the sunlight. The rest must be marketing.

Michel.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

thefisherman said:


> awesome chart! doesn't LED have gaps as well.. keyword "targetted" Not disputing the efficiency of LED's


Yes.... but "you" can fill them.. instead of waiting for a 1)manuf to fill them in or 2)buying multiple full tubes.. 

Trick is 1) max. wavelenths for photosynthesis.. then 2)color balance for taste.. 

Plants have "gaps" too..


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

micheljq said:


> Probably the only real full spectrum light is the sunlight. The rest must be marketing.
> 
> Michel.


Actually this "tube" is pretty "full spectrum"............ next question is w/ plants.. do you really want full spectrum?

Even "natural light" is attenuated i.e coming through a canopy of vegetation.. ect.. so one would need to define their preferred environment.. Reefers have it fairly easy.. full sun.. attenuated by depth.... 










"parent company" of agrosun
http://www.parsource.com/products/t5-commercial-fluorescent-lighting-systems


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## fearsome (Feb 16, 2013)

It depends on the plant, lakes and rivers are often pretty full on spectrum. IE the water removes trees that would otherwise block light. Now if you talk about aplant that grows on the banks of a small stream then yes it may be completely covered. 

To me the term full spectrum has always meant like the sun, but I have never seen that so I have no clue what it means. It is my belief that the term may mean nothing at all to some companies. But originally it means a light that for some reason or another offers more light in a wavelength that is missing form the typical mass marketed lights of that type. 

I will also say that in our hobby and many others I believe their is not enough sales and interest for regulators to step in and some companies are probably outright liars on various issues and specs.


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

thefisherman said:


> Everyone uses the term "FULL SPECTRUM" lighting loosely and applies it all types of lighting. What the does that really mean? And can it be interchangeably used with ALL lamp types? If you say yes then it means MH, HPS, CFL, Tubes AND LED's offer "full spectrum" lighting which clearly is false. Not only are humans virtually blind to what full spectrum actually is, what we view as visible light is so narrow and forgiving. Plant know, we don't... btw anyone who tells me today's LED's offer "full spectrum" lighting, I would say "not yet, maybe in a few more years... but I bet the manufacturer's would want you to believe so!" (ie HPS is a "full spectrum " lamp sold as a grow light for indoor gardening...um am i color blind or is that light red? don't believe the hype!)


It means whatever the seller what's it to mean.



thefisherman said:


> tube flourecents probabbly offer the best rendering of what plants can percieve as true spectrum... look at don's (broyer) tank. using a full range of lamps from 6500-10000 as well as pink bulbs he is able to capture something close to the sun... but that's just my opinion, but its hard for me not to believe his plants, they don't lie.


Leds still beat fluorescent bulbs because they can be designed to emit any spectral color of visible light. Fluorescent bulbs have a limited to the number of phosphors to use. Most use three. 

By the way, Don's method is what the Dutch did to provided adequate light many decades ago.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Steve001 said:


> It means whatever the seller what's it to mean.
> 
> 
> Leds still beat fluorescent bulbs because they can be designed to emit any spectral color of visible light. Fluorescent bulbs have a limited to the number of phosphors to use. Most use three.
> ...


Maybe but I believe that the spectral color that a led emits is very limited. Leds can be designed for any spectral color, but only one at a time.

Michel.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

micheljq said:


> Maybe but I believe that the spectral color that a led emits is very limited. Leds can be designed for any spectral color, but only one at a time.
> 
> Michel.


Not even close, unless you are talking pure LED.. 
LED's are doped w/ phosphors, no different than flour. tubes.. 
But lets stick w/ "pure" LED's for now (not inc. variations and UV or IR types:









Moving on to "white"








http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=51884&page=2

there is always a spread:










different whites..


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

If it's just for the contest and not all the time the plants are growing, and also if it's strictly for the visual appeal as opposed to the actual plant use..these things I know not. But Just for the record...if you check, you will find that 95% of all Aquascape entrants use T5 lights in there tanks.
In thinking about it, my tank that I first started/w, a ten g tank, had a regular incandescent bulb on it. I got a cardboard box(for lack of money at the time) and
put in it a fixture that you could screw in a regular light bulb but bought a clear 60W one from Loew's at the time.
No matter what I've changed the light to since then, it has never looked as good.
I lined the cardboard box/w aluminum foil for more reflextion but it was still just a regular bulb in the incandescent type.
But pay me no mind cause while I was typing this I put a coffee filter in my plastic funnel, some coffee grounds and poured some boiling water threw it to make me a cup of coffee to drink while I read more threads. For real and true.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Raymond S. said:


> If it's just for the contest and not all the time the plants are growing, and also if it's strictly for the visual appeal as opposed to the actual plant use..these things I know not. But Just for the record...if you check, you will find that 95% of all Aquascape entrants use T5 lights in there tanks.


And that means exactly what??? 


Raymond S. said:


> screw in a regular light bulb but bought a clear 60W one from Loew's at the time.
> No matter what I've changed the light to since then, it has never looked as good.


not surprising.. few "modern lights" are anywhere near that color temp. in such an inefficient bulb..


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

enjoying the ride... please continue to educate


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

micheljq said:


> Maybe but I believe that the spectral color that a led emits is very limited. Leds can be designed for any spectral color, but only one at a time.
> 
> Michel.


That is why led lights for plant tanks do use more than just one led emitting one color of light.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Depends on if it's all the time or not.
If not then it means that it's(the T5 bulbs) just for visual appeal during the contest.
But if it's all the time it clearly shows greater spectrum being covered by the T5 than the LED.
But which is it...all the time or just for the show ?
Most bulb manufacturers don't supply graph charts/w their bulbs but Zoo Med does and their Flora Sun shows a peak in the 650nm range as well as the rest of what is useful to plants. Coincidentally I get noticably better growth from those bulbs than any other ones. But you can order this spectrum in a BML LED also.
I'll go/w most on here and say that the title "full spectrum" means relatively nothing
any more these days as the makers try to cash in on that name.
I really want to know if there is any way to see(a chart maybe?) if a 10,000K bulb actually contains all the spectrum below that K level or not as some say it does.
The point of that desire is because the hydroponics people are now saying that 5400K does better on plants than the 6500 does. But shouldn't a 10,000K contain that also ?
And that is my reason for wanting to know this. BTW the Zoo Med Flora sun is rated at 5000K.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Raymond S. said:


> The point of that desire is because the hydroponics people are now saying that 5400K does better on plants than the 6500 does. But shouldn't a 10,000K contain that also ?
> And that is my reason for wanting to know this. BTW the Zoo Med Flora sun is rated at 5000K.


They will probably find that 3500-4000k works even better, at least as an added component.. 

Almost all "white" start out blue @450nm.. then add the "soup"....









Referring back to this (cool,neutral,warm LED)









consider the 10,000k is the blue line, it is deficient in deep red, as an proportional component........660nm

https://reefledlights.com/ledmytank/

FYI:


> Under 465 nm LED excitation, the color coordinates of the Ce:YAG ceramics shifted from the blue region to yellow region with increasing sample thickness, passing nearby the theoretical white point in the chromaticity diagram. The highest value of luminous efficacy of the ceramic white LED was 73.5 lm/W.


Though SW specific, It really does apply to FW.. That said, there will always be aesthetic tradeoffs and subtle differences of "look"...


> "If you want to recreate the natural light found shallow tidal pools all you have to do is add a few Red LEDs or a few Warm White (Red Line) LEDs. The exact spectrum of Cree LEDs varies slightly with the Bin. By choosing the correct Bin one can easily replicate the look of any MH or T5 light."


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