# Twisted, deformed growth



## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

So according to the API gh and kh tests I have a dgh of 14 and a dkh of 6.5. I have noticed leaf curling, twisting and crinkling on my ludwigia super red and ovalis and occasionally on my ar mini. Seems to come and go and effects different leafs at different times. I have read these symptoms can be attributed to low calcium/magnesium levels. I wonder if this is the cause because I thought that the API gh test is mainly testing for calcium/magnesium? Here's the report:






could sodium be throwing off my test readings. The report seems to show low levels of calcium and magnesium. Thoughts? And thanks for any input. 


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Willcooper,

Are the "leaf curling, twisting and crinkling on my ludwigia super red and ovalis and occasionally on my ar mini." on just newer growth? Ca deficiency is typically characterized as a 'hook' downward at the leaf tip. Twisted leaves are a symptom of a possible molybdenum deficiency. Yes, sometimes you may have high dKH and dGH and still be seeing signs of Ca or Mg deficiency. Sometimes there is a excess or Mg which can effect the uptake of Ca.


> ammonium or magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants


 Although I don't believe I have experienced it I have read that lower levels of CO2 can cause the same issue of curled and twisting leaves, especially on new growth.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Co2 was my first thought. About a week ago I increased it from a 1.0 ph drop to a 1.2 ph drop. The new growth is the problem on the ludwigia red and prob on the ovalis too just more apparent on the red. Pics aren't great (cell phone).


























I dose;
50% water change then 
1/4+1/8th+1/32 teaspoon kno3, 1/16th kh2po4, 1/2 k2so4 (three times a week)
1/8th csm+b (3 times a week)

Tap water starts out 2.5 ppm nitrate plus what I dose but I use an API nitrate test kit, which I don't trust, so total levels are uncertain. 


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Willcooper,

Actually, the pics are pretty good! The second picture, upper right hand corner, Hygrophila leaf shows the definite 'hook' of Ca deficiency, Same picture, the leaves look 'scorched' with interveinal chlorosis. Third picture, the Ludwigia has curled, deformed leaf development with leaf edges turning downward. Fourth picture same.

Will, I need a tank size for the dosing levels to be relevant.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

*Water quality report assistance*



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Willcooper,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh yeah duh. Tank size is a 40 breeder so 44 gallons. The leaf in the top right second picture is just another stem of ovalis. Funny I never thought calcium deficiency was a possibility with my water. I have a calcium test kit in my cart on amazon. Will have it soon. It looks like using ro water and a gh/kh booster will be the path forward. I used to do this when my 20 long was set up. Didn't like the hassle of going to get water every week but maybe it just needs to be done. I don't like the idea of my tap water having such high hardness readings and it not being from calcium/magnesium. 

The ovalis looks pretty similar to this from above








Did quick research. It seems like seachem equilibrium is a good way to go as it contains a few more useful trace elements than barrs gh booster. 


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Willcooper,

Remember, "magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants" so it may not be a lack of Ca but an excess of Mg. Sometimes, even with moderate dGH. it is a good idea to dose Equilibrium / GH Booster to insure there is sufficient Mg and Ca available for the plants.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Willcooper,
> 
> 
> 
> Remember, "magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants" so it may not be a lack of Ca but an excess of Mg. Sometimes, even with moderate dGH. it is a good idea to dose Equilibrium / GH Booster to insure there is sufficient Mg and Ca available for the plants.




Cool. You're looking for about a 5-1 ratio of ca/mg right? I think just using reconstituted ro water will eliminate the goofing around. Oh by the way, do you know how to test for mg? I've searched test kits for it but couldn't find anything. 


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Willcooper,

Based upon your 40 gallon tank (likely 32 gallon volume with 2" of substrate) you are dosing about 0.377ppm of Fe per dose; Tom Barr regularly doses 0.7+ppm of Fe 3X per week. Unless you have shrimp, I would suggest increasing your Fe dosing to maybe 3/16 tsp (0.566ppm) 3X per week. Wait a week or so and see if the new leaves exhibit the same problems as your current leaves - I would not expect to see much change in the existing leaves. Let us know how it goes!


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Willcooper,
> 
> Based upon your 40 gallon tank (likely 32 gallon volume with 2" of substrate) you are dosing about 0.377ppm of Fe per dose; Tom Barr regularly doses 0.7+ppm of Fe 3X per week. Unless you have shrimp, I would suggest increasing your Fe dosing to maybe 3/16 tsp (0.566ppm) 3X per week. Wait a week or so and see if the new leaves exhibit the same problems as your current leaves - I would not expect to see much change in the existing leaves. Let us know how it goes!




Ok will do. Just did a re-scape so it should give me an indication in about a week when roots develop again. 


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

*Name that issue! Calcium or iron or carbon?*

Ok I just got the calcium test kit and tested. 

Parms:
Ca 100-120ppm
Mg unknown (my water report shows a 5-1 ratio of ca to mg)
Nitrate 20ppm
Phosphates unknown (I dose for 1ppm)
Dgh 14
Dkh 6.5
Ph 6.6 (degassed 7.8) I'm trying to get this to 6.4/6.2 because much of my problem could be this. 

I just read about half of the 650 post thread on csm+b issues and targeting fe using it and no other iron source. I have as of Sunday stopped dosing csm+b and have been adding API leaf zone. My thinking was to dose like this for a couple of weeks and then resume csm+b dosing at a lower level. I already have 17ppm of copper in my tap water so it may be that other micro nutrients have been impeading iron absorption. My plan is to dose csm+b to about .2 ppm fe or less and add an edta iron source to achieve a total of .5-.75 fe like Tom Barr does and see if that helps. 

Thoughts are def welcome. 



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## Tinanti (Aug 25, 2005)

That's not _Ludwigia ovalis_, which has alternate leaves. Might be repens, but hard to say for sure.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

-B, boron deficiency


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Tinanti said:


> That's not _Ludwigia ovalis_, which has alternate leaves. Might be repens, but hard to say for sure.




I bet you're right. Pretty annoyed with a particular online retailer. Every plant I have ordered (3) has been wrong. The coloring is much different than other ludwigias I've had. 


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> -B, boron deficiency




Definitely could be boron but so hard to tell because it seems that carbon, iron and calcium can all cause similar issues. For a long time I was dosing to reach .2ppm of fe through csm+b which yields .025 ppm of boron and recently began doubling that dose but saw no change so that's when I decided earlier this week to lower csm+b dosing and dose iron separately. Are you aware of a target range for boron? I know that can be difficult because so many factors can inhibit uptake. One of the main worries I have is that my tap water may be so rich in micros already and I have read a lot about those micros getting in the way of iron absorption. My copper is at 17ppm out of the tap, for example, which I'm to understand is quite high and can prevent iron and other mineral absorption. 

I'm going to go with a lower csm+b dose with an added edta iron source while at the same time increasing co2 as much as is safe. My ludwigias plant still grow pretty quick (5" in ten days) so I should see some signs pretty soon. 


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

so many effects for just one cause


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Neither -Fe, -Ca, or -C will result in such symptoms. -C just stops growth, not result in distorted leaves as certain ppl believe.

Ca:B 400 (+/-200). Too much B results in slowed growth and then -Ca. Tap will likely already have a lot but may not be sufficient to balance Ca.

Cu is not 17ppm, as this much will cause copper poisoning to humans and kill all of your plants and animals, but 17ugl, 0.017mgl.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Neither -Fe, -Ca, or -C will result in such symptoms. -C just stops growth, not result in distorted leaves as certain ppl believe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I typed wrong it was .17ppm of copper. So what would you do in this case? Add calcium and increase csm+b dosing? Thanks for your reply 


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> -C just stops growth, not result in distorted leaves as certain ppl believe.


Im sorry but this is just wrong.

Too little CO2, or a sudden decrease can cause all sorts of symptoms that look like various deficiencies/toxicities.

Just to be clear, Im talking about high light tanks with plants that need CO2 in the first place, not Java ferns

Its an easy theory to test. All anyone who doesnt believe it has to do is cut their CO2 way down or off for a few days and see what happens.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

burr740 said:


> Im sorry but this is just wrong.
> 
> Too little CO2, or a sudden decrease can cause all sorts of symptoms that look like various deficiencies/toxicities.
> 
> ...




I'm really hoping this is all just a co2 thing. I have about 60 par at substrate in this tank and only stems and quick growers. It's is strange how the growth is not deformed on all of my ludwigia just on all of my ludwigia red. The other ludwigia, that I thought was ovalis, has only about half the leaves that are deformed where as most new leaves look good and the slightly older bigger leaves are effected the most. 

I think it was you burr740 that was experimenting with lower csm+b doses. How's that going? Are you dosing lower on csm+b and then more iron in a separate dose? 


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Willcooper said:


> I'm really hoping this is all just a co2 thing. I have about 60 par at substrate in this tank and only stems and quick growers. It's is strange how the growth is not deformed on all of my ludwigia just on all of my ludwigia red. The other ludwigia, that I thought was ovalis, has only about half the leaves that are deformed where as most new leaves look good and the slightly older bigger leaves are effected the most.
> 
> I think it was you burr740 that was experimenting with lower csm+b doses. How's that going? Are you dosing lower on csm+b and then more iron in a separate dose?
> 
> ...


My micros are csmb dosed at .01 ppm Fe, and .02 Fe dtpa 3 x week. Yes those decimals are correct! 

My substrate is inert sand. With Aquasoil or other high cec subs these levels probably wont be enough.

The first thing Id do is make sure CO2 is right. Also trim the tank real good to reduce biomass and improve circulation, and keep it that way. 

Then Id try cutting micros down if the problem persists. 

The good news is it doesnt sound like much is wrong at all.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Ca:B 400+/-200. Below 100 and B-induced -Ca may result. Ludwigias generally have higher B requirements than Rotala rotundifolias.

Ca 33-82mgl, Mg 2.4-17 which correlates with the tested GH of 14. So if Ca=80mgl: 80mgl÷400=0.2mgl of B.

The WQ report doesn't indicate B concentrations which is problematic for determining how much more B needs to be supplied. I suggest dosing 0.050mgl of B and observe.

As for 170ugl of Cu, that's very high. Are invertebrates healthy? If the copper doesn't complex with organic matter or bind to the substrate, then I do not recommend large water changes. Adding floating hyperaccumulators such as duckweed will absorb the excess copper.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Ca:B 400+/-200. Below 100 and B-induced -Ca may result. Ludwigias generally have higher B requirements than Rotala rotundifolias.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Copper is .17ppm according to the water report but snails and Amano shrimp have all done well. Looks like I would be dosing 1/4 teaspoon of csmb to achieve that target of .05 ppm boron, which would also mean I'm dosing 1.78 ppm of fe, which I may do in about a month when I order more (I'm almost out). In the mean time I have elevated co2 injection and am playing around with ways to diffuse it better. I use a glass diffuser now and have a hard time coming close to diffusing it all. I have also just trimmed and replanted and the top 1/3 of the aquarium is open now with power heads creating a nice circle current. If that works I'll see it in 1-2 weeks. I'll update then. 


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Use boric acid or borax. Plants show no signs of -Fe.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Use boric acid or borax. Plants show no signs of -Fe.




Ok I have borax at the house now which is great in not having do dose higher levels of csmb. Rotallabutterfly's calculator says to dose less than 1/64th teaspoon to reach a target of .025 ppm b (my current dose of csmb achieves .025 ppm b) for a total of .05 b. How much less of 1/64th does it really mean? The smallest teaspoon I have is 1/32nd so 1/64th isn't terribly hard but less than may be if it's a lot less. 


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## Mathman (Apr 5, 2009)

Back in 2014, Zapins along with other well respected members in the forum, recommended a weekly max of. .02ppm of Boron. 

Not sure if this still holds true.

If so, using boron as a proxy when making a solution with CSM +B, you could aim for .067 ppm of B per dose 3x per week. However, this only provides .055ppm of Fe per dose. 

Can more iron be supplemented via DTPA ?


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Tinanti said:


> That's not _Ludwigia ovalis_, which has alternate leaves. Might be repens, but hard to say for sure.


 @Tinanti you are right. . For sure it's repens. I have same plant. 


And does your drop checker show light green on opposite side of tank? Maybe co2 not getting distributed evenly. Fixing water movement may help. 

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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Willcooper said:


> Ok I have borax at the house now which is great in not having do dose higher levels of csmb. Rotallabutterfly's calculator says to dose less than 1/64th teaspoon to reach a target of .025 ppm b (my current dose of csmb achieves .025 ppm b) for a total of .05 b. How much less of 1/64th does it really mean? The smallest teaspoon I have is 1/32nd so 1/64th isn't terribly hard but less than may be if it's a lot less.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You will need a gram scale to weigh. The suggested teaspoon sizes are likely very inaccurate. Make a solution of B since it's very difficult to accurately weigh 34mg.

The B from CSM+B is likely not correct according to the calculators bc sellers add their own concentrations. GLA and Nilocg are likely much lower than calculator. AquariumFertilizer is likely much higher.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

@Mathman I could target .2ppm from from csmb which gives me .025 ppm b and then dose borax to reach .025 b for a total boron level of .05 ppm. Then add an edta fe source to add another .3-.5ppm of fe. 
@clownplanted the drop checker is a solid yellow with a ph drop of 1.4 with good water movement through out the tank. I just trimmed and replanted to optimize flow even more. 


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## Mathman (Apr 5, 2009)

Max .02 ppm of boron for the entire week. 


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

When I suggested 50ugl, that was on top of the micro mix and tap. The goal is to aim for a Ca:B of 400. But since you don't know what's already in tap or the mix, 50ugl is a small step to improve the ratio.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Mathman said:


> Max .02 ppm of boron for the entire week.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Found this http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...iency-could-nitrate.html#/topics/71618?page=1

It seems zapins says there are times when more boron is needed for specific plants. His post is only a few into the thread. 


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> When I suggested 50ugl, that was on top of the micro mix and tap. The goal is to aim for a Ca:B of 400. But since you don't know what's already in tap or the mix, 50ugl is a small step to improve the ratio.




I'll try this and post back the results. 

Here is a before trim pic









Here are a few after the trim (its crazy how fast the plants started hunching over from trimming them and letting them float last night. I'm sure in a few days they will stand up again)






































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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Im very curious to see if more B solves the issue. Please be sure to report back the results.

Although dont be surprised if reducing bio-mass alone (via the latest big trim) solves it temporarily, at least until it grows back out again and competition gets stiff.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

burr740 said:


> Im very curious to see if more B solves the issue. Please be sure to report back the results.
> 
> Although dont be surprised if reducing bio-mass alone (via the latest big trim) solves it temporarily, at least until it grows back out again and competition gets stiff.




Same here. Very curious to see the results and if it fixes or not. 


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Willcooper said:


> I'll try this and post back the results.
> 
> Here is a before trim pic
> 
> ...


Hi Willcooper,

Are you dosing any magnesium? Might I suggest before you start messing with the Boron a lot try adding some Mg (MgSO4 / Epsom Salt) to your tank and watch the new growth, also watch for better green coloration and improved growth and root growth. Mg is one of the 'mobile' nutrients that can cause effects a number of factors of plant growth including photosynthesis:



> Magnesium plays a part in many processes, to wit:
> 
> · Chlorophyll formation
> o Light-absorbing green pigment
> ...


In my experience, also slow growth. Symptoms of a Mg deficiency are:



> C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.
> 
> 1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency
> 
> When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is remobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, plants are brittle and branches have a tendency to curve upward.


What part of Alabama are you in so I can try to pull up a water report (assuming you are not on a well)?


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

@Seattle_Aquarist I am in San tan valley, Arizona. 

It's been a week of adding additional boron via borax to a total b, including my csmb dose, of .07 ppm and the issue is the same based on 1.5" of growth. Leaves curl around and juvi leaves are "crunched" on ludwigia super red mini and the tips of ludwigia broad is curling down. 

I'll ask for input on what to do next;
Continue at same level for a longer duration, increase borax dose, or switch to another nutrient strategy. I have cuttlebone and







which I didn't realize I had. Co2 is pushing ph from 7.8 to 6.6 and lights are 6.5 hrs at about 60 par. Thoughts?

Edit:

Did a quick search and it does really seem like calcium deficiency









That seems to be a common effect when looking at charts like that. I guess I'm still surprised if that's it with a dgh of 14. But if it is that and I have cuddlebone how much should I add? So I guess it still stands, thoughts? 


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Pic of the nutrient disorder?


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Pic of the nutrient disorder?




Please refer to post #3. Notice on the red the leaves are curled around the edges the whole way down and this dose not cure as it ages. It may look a little less but that's just because the leaf is larger. 


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

You'll need to check B:Zn. Too much B is antagonistic to Zn and vice versa. At the right proportion, they are synergistic and each helps the other be absorbed and utilized. There is likely a mild -Zn as is evidenced by the marginal chlorosis on Lobelia. L. red appears to need more Zn than Rotalas from my experiments as well as S. repens.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> You'll need to check B:Zn. Too much B is antagonistic to Zn and vice versa. At the right proportion, they are synergistic and each helps the other be absorbed and utilized. There is likely a mild -Zn as is evidenced by the marginal chlorosis on Lobelia. L. red appears to need more Zn than Rotalas from my experiments as well as S. repens.




I would think the zn/b levels should be the result of csmb dosing which was on its own until last week when I increased b by .05ppm and starting adding a full dose of leafzone. 


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

The Lobelia looks fine to me.

Calculated at 40 gal, your 1/8 tsp dose is adding .028 ppm B, and .013 Zn - 3x a week.

I strongly doubt either one is deficient.

My humble advice is when you get done with the B experiment, do an 80% water change and cut csmb by 1/3 for a week or two, or in half.

Ludwigia responds very fast, especially the red. You'll either see a rapid improvement, or else you can move on the the next idea.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

You want to make sure your calcium and mg levels are in order at 3:1. Also keep in mind to much mg can block ca uptake making it seem like too little ca. Do you use gh booster? I think you are on right track but keep in mind it's usually more a mg deficiency than ca. But need to check both to make sure are in check. 


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

@burr740 thanks for the advise. I know it has worked for you and others and I will try it if more b doesn't work. 
@clownplanted if I believe my water quality report it looks like I'm at a 5/1 ratio of ca/mg. I tested my calcium and it comes in at 100-120 ppm which puts my mg at 20-24ppm (strictly based on the report if the ratios are still accurate). So that means to get to 4-1 I would need to add 6-10ppm of mgso4 or more even to get to a 3-1 ratio. I see that that ratio is different based on people's opinions. And I know tank conditions can call for different things but does anyone really know what the proper ratio should be?


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Willcooper said:


> @burr740 thanks for the advise. I know it has worked for you and others and I will try it if more b doesn't work.
> @clownplanted if I believe my water quality report it looks like I'm at a 5/1 ratio of ca/mg. I tested my calcium and it comes in at 100-120 ppm which puts my mg at 20-24ppm (strictly based on the report if the ratios are still accurate). So that means to get to 4-1 I would need to add 6-10ppm of mgso4 or more even to get to a 3-1 ratio. I see that that ratio is different based on people's opinions. And I know tank conditions can call for different things but does anyone really know what the proper ratio should be?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To be honest it should not cause an issue but you can try to get the ration closer to at least 4:1. And doing more research as long as you are not limiting any of the trace nutrients it really is usually co2. High co2 fluctuations can cause issues. Its MUCH easier for co2 to fluctuate say 10 times than any other parameter in the tank stressing the plant causing issues. Are you sure your co2 is consistent? What is it at when lights come on? Does it stay consistent during the day? Notice any co2 swings? Does drop checker stay same color throughout diff locations in tank? Without looking further back in your post how are you diffusing? Is the flow good enough to evenly distribute the co2 equally. Reading a ton of Tom Barr's articles and threads he has proven many times that when many think its ca/mg/k its actually co2 that somehow or another is causing the issue making it look to be ca/mg/k. 

Back to the ratio according to Tom Barr he said it was never really proven that being that far out of ratio causes a problem. Just make sure that neither ca or mg are limiting and you should be fine. 

I would really look closely at your co2. Use a PH pen and get accurate before/after measurements throughout different locations in the tank. Test close to where co2 comes in at and on opposite side. Does drop checker stay consistent color ie green/yellow? I know drop checker is hard to use as its like a 2 hour delay. Again cannot stress enough really check your co2.

Also do you have lighting dead spots where the problem plants are at? Is it just one spot where the plants are having problems or spread out throughout the tank?

I will quote what Tom Barr had said in a few different posts about similar issues

"Mg is more common for issues, many suggested it was K+(Potassium), but CO2 and Mg will influence that more than Ca which tends to rarely an issue but an oft loved excuse for poor growth.

High levels of NH4+ and Mg++ will block K+ far more than K+ ever will.
And there is research to support that.

So do not go nuts with Mg.
You just need a little bit and the ratio itself is not going to cause much issue if the Ca is high. 10-20ppm is more than enough. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr"

"I'll give this a whirl.
I like the Rotala and it does grow back fast when happy.
What might be interesting is focusing on the KH vs Mg.

I know many folks that have rather high GH's, many from dosing SeaChem Eq and in a number of cases they have Mg over 10ppm but an associated higher level of Ca as well.

Ca/K/Mg/NH4 blocking all appears to need to be much higher concentrations typically found in pore water to start to get blocking. But species to species difference may play a larger role.

I have found the Luwigia cuba to stunt much like the R wallichii in the hard KH/GH's, but teasing apart which is causing what requires more grow out and then changes to the Mg, KH and Ca levels.

In general, if there is a GH issue, lower Mg is typically the reason if the GH is already high, it's virtually unheard of to find high Mg and low or limiting Ca levels if the Gh is 3-5 degrees or high.

Many folks have high GH's and does well with Rotalas and Ludwigia cuba.
It might be evidence of a ratio being important even at low concentrations.

Regards, 
Tom Barr"

"but your new routine adding a little bit of SeaChem Eq each week will address the issue(which is Mg limitation), we found this out about 10 years ago in the Bay area using this product.

Many thought it is was all the K+, which was all the rage back then.
Some thought it was the Ca, Steve Dixon wondered if it was the Mg. He's alos the guy that found out I had such high PO4.

He had so many things right on looking back, too bad he's not active any longer.

I'm about ready to torture some wallichii also. Bring on the salts!

Regards, 
Tom Barr"

"I tend to suggest a few degrees of GH for soft water, about 3-4 at least using SeaChem EQ or the Gh booster, folks with harder GH waters may need some Mg or Ca to balance things out so neither is limiting.

I think you can approach it that way, using just GH and adding a bit more with a balanced product or................you can analyze GH individually into the Ca and Mg sereprate nutrients.
Simply because you do not test, does not mean you need to know what the ppm of Ca/Mg, only that you have enough to prevent limiting conditions.
That's the real issue for 99% of aquarist, not confusing themselves with test kits/methods.

Why test unless there is a problem?
How do you avoid such problems to begin with?

Pretty straight forward.
If you suspect K+ is limiting, then add more K+ and see.
You do not need to test the K+, you can if you want, but you do not need to do so to know the K+ is limiting or in excess. Simple calculators will tell you that. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr"


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

I will bring out this quote again from Tom Barr since its pretty important in my mind and may show your issue.

"I have found the Luwigia cuba to stunt much like the R wallichii in the hard KH/GH's, but teasing apart which is causing what requires more grow out and then changes to the Mg, KH and Ca levels.

In general, if there is a GH issue, lower Mg is typically the reason if the GH is already high, it's virtually unheard of to find high Mg and low or limiting Ca levels if the Gh is 3-5 degrees or high.

Many folks have high GH's and does well with Rotalas and Ludwigia cuba.
It might be evidence of a ratio being important even at low concentrations.

Regards, 
Tom Barr"

Since your GH is high it possibly could be a Mg issue as its stated that mg issue could play more of a role the higher your GH and the ratio could be more important. I would add some Mg to try and even out the ratio a bit more. This seems like the most logical and easiest thing to do at this point.

Also wanted to add that when I added co2 and switched over to EI dosing(NilocG) I am/was following the recommended dosing for both micros and macros. Now what it does is allows you to rule out nutrients as a deficiency or does it? It assumes that you will have good/correct calcium/mg levels. So by adding enough all othernutrients ca/mg could then be limiting factor. (assuming you are dosing correct levels of micros/macros) 

In my case I noticed a tiny bit(not near as bad as your case) of ludwiga repens leaf some curling and more noticeably some holes in some of my amazon sword leaves. Again all pointing to either ca/mg def. I then immediately started adding GH booster(NilocG)(Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Sulfate, Calcium Sulfate(1:3:3 ratio) and the problems went away almost immediately. So I do not know any of four possible things here. My GH from tap is 6. So I do not know if my ca was low, my mg was low, my k was low or if the ca/mg ratio was too far out of balance and possibly blocking Ca uptake. Without further testing I really have no way of knowing. But what I do know is that by adding the correct mg/k/ca from the Gh booster it fixed my issue and saw the results very fast. All new leaves were good and no new holes since 2 weeks ago. Again in my mind this is the easiest thing you can try at this point to rule out any ca/mg ratio issue.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Willcooper,

Are you on Johnson Utilities for your water or Queen Creek? Johnson Utilities supplies most of the water to San Tan Valley, AZ and they use several different wells to supply the needs of the community. *Their water quality report* does not give information on hardness, Ca, Mg, or levels of other nutrients that could help us. It is interesting to note that the utility got in trouble when they exceeded 10 ppm Nitrate levels in November and December. The Queen Creek information although dated 2011 for Ca and Mg implies a huge range for Ca (33-82ppm) and Mg (2.4-17ppm) likely due to time of year and rainfall.

So I downloaded your picture and enlarged it greatly. Depending upon the species it looks like mostly new growth is being effected. I see various problems including chlorosis (yellowing of new growth), veins lighter in color than the areas between the veins, leaf margins curling downward, I re-read this thread and I do not see how much micro-nutrients you are dosing....did it miss it?


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Willcooper,
> 
> Are you on Johnson Utilities for your water or Queen Creek? Johnson Utilities supplies most of the water to San Tan Valley, AZ and they use several different wells to supply the needs of the community. *Their water quality report* does not give information on hardness, Ca, Mg, or levels of other nutrients that could help us. It is interesting to note that the utility got in trouble when they exceeded 10 ppm Nitrate levels in November and December. The Queen Creek information although dated 2011 for Ca and Mg implies a huge range for Ca (33-82ppm) and Mg (2.4-17ppm) likely due to time of year and rainfall.
> 
> So I downloaded your picture and enlarged it greatly. Depending upon the species it looks like mostly new growth is being effected. I see various problems including chlorosis (yellowing of new growth), veins lighter in color than the areas between the veins, leaf margins curling downward, I re-read this thread and I do not see how much micro-nutrients you are dosing....did it miss it?


Very interesting. That that is a very low level of Mg which could explain some things here. The higher the Gh the more factor a lower Mg level comes in causing issue. And I also second the notion how much/often are you dosing micros?


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

@Seattle_Aquarist @clownplanted I am dosing 1/8th teaspoon csmb 3x week which is what I had been dosing for a while but last week switched to 1/16th csmb 1/64 borax and 20ml API leaf zone 3x week

And it's the queen creek water not Johnson utilities. Johnson did have a spike in nitrates due to high monsoon rain levels a few months ago. 

@clowplanted my co2 is being diffused via a glass diffuser with a power head directly above it (front left of tank) with a skimmer on the opposite back corner creating a nice circle flow in the tank. Ph is 6.8-6.9 when lights come on and gets down to 6.6 after about an hour or two and stays there all day. The only fluctuations would be during lights off/on

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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Willcooper said:


> @Seattle_Aquarist @clownplanted I am dosing 1/8th teaspoon csmb 3x week which is what I had been dosing for a while but last week switched to 1/16th csmb 1/64 borax and 20ml API leaf zone 3x week
> 
> And it's the queen creek water not Johnson utilities. Johnson did have a spike in nitrates due to high monsoon rain levels a few months ago.
> 
> ...


You can honestly and I would suggest overdose csmb to rule out a micro def. Again I think and feel its due to your ca/mg levels. Your mg level is low and is out of balance of your ca especially with a gh of 14. IF it were me here is what I would do.

I'll suggest adding most every nutrient to excess, that is relatively easy to do. Rule out as a def. As long as you are inline with EI you can rule that out. Do not go low in one or more.
Add mg to get more inline with ca. 

if you apply the EI dosing up to 2x the weekly build up if no additional Mg is used, then the Mg amounts end up in the 2-6ppm range generally. So you most likely appear short in Mg.

How fast does it take you to get 1pt ph drop? Do you have good flow in the tank? Notice I keep referring back to co2. Is so commonly the issue.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Willcooper,

Are you dosing other nutrients (KNO3; K2SO4; KH2PO4) per EI or is there a reduction in KNO3 due to the amount of NO3 in your local water?

Your reduction in CSM+B dosing (which dropped your EDTA Iron from 0.335ppm to 0.16ppm) is totally offset by the increase in ETDA Fe in the Leaf Zone from (0ppm to 0.15ppm) plus you are adding extra K; what was the purpose?

BTW, 1/64 tsp of borax adds 0.06ppm boron to your tank; Zapins recommended not to exceed 0.02ppm so you are dosing 3X the recommended amount per Rotala Butterfly ("Result of my dose").

What would I do if it were me?

1) Do my 50% water change

2) Stop dosing extra Boron/Borax

3) Do a full set of water tests on my tank; NO3; PH; dKH, dGH, and Ca

Let's talk about dosing after we see where we are. - Subscribed


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

clownplanted said:


> You can honestly and I would suggest overdose csmb to rule out a micro def. Again I think and feel its due to your ca/mg levels. Your mg level is low and is out of balance of your ca especially with a gh of 14. IF it were me here is what I would do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I edited my last post to talk about co2. If anything I would look to add some mg and not increase csmb as I feel based on reading and experiences that I do have a sufficient level of micros considering I was dosing over ei (rotallabutterfly). 


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Willcooper,
> 
> Are you dosing other nutrients (KNO3; K2SO4; KH2PO4) per EI or is there a reduction in KNO3 due to the amount of NO3 in your local water?
> 
> ...


I agree to this and would add one additional step. 

Stop low dosing any/all nutrients, go off of the normal EI dosing recommendations. Stop the extra Boron dosing. Good stuff @Seattle_Aquarist


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Low dosing of anything has only occurred in the last 10 days or so. The problem was from before that. I am reducing the csmb dose from 1/8th to a 1/16th and also dosing extra iron is because I want the extra iron without as many of the other micro nutrients (I was giving them the full dose for the last 3/4 months). This is how tom Barr does it and burr740 and others with amazing results. I did some reading and gave this a try. Others go far lower with very strong results (burr740). I am otherwise, and always have been, dosing at full ei for kno3 (1/4 tsp x3 week), kh2po4 (1/16th tsp x3 week) and I dose extra k2so4 at 1/4 tsp x3 a week to eliminate it as a possible issue as the k you get from the other macros isn't a bunch. 


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Willcooper said:


> Low dosing of anything has only occurred in the last 10 days or so. The problem was from before that. I am reducing the csmb dose from 1/8th to a 1/16th and also dosing extra iron is because I want the extra iron without as many of the other micro nutrients (I was giving them the full dose for the last 3/4 months). This is how tom Barr does it and burr740 and others with amazing results. I did some reading and gave this a try. Others go far lower with very strong results (burr740). I am otherwise, and always have been, dosing at full ei for kno3 (1/4 tsp x3 week), kh2po4 (1/16th tsp x3 week) and I dose extra k2so4 at 1/4 tsp x3 a week to eliminate it as a possible issue as the k you get from the other macros isn't a bunch.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Just wanted to make sure and rule out any ferts as an issue. So at this point am sure has to do with levels of Ca,Mg. Your co2 and ferts and am sure lights are good? Get the ca:mg right and should see good results 

Keep in mind dosing lower amounts may work for one but not in another. Burr has even specifically stated this that it may have bad results done in another tank. A lot of factors like substrate play a role in being able to dose smaller amounts and have good results. Every tank is different and what works good in one may not in another. That's what can make troubleshooting very hard but like I said is why the EI is called what it is. Going lower can cause issues. Not saying it is in your case but only one way to rule out as a possibility. 


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Willcooper said:


> Low dosing of anything has only occurred in the last 10 days or so. The problem was from before that. I am reducing the csmb dose from 1/8th to a 1/16th and also dosing extra iron is because I want the extra iron without as many of the other micro nutrients (I was giving them the full dose for the last 3/4 months). This is how tom Barr does it and burr740 and others with amazing results. I did some reading and gave this a try. Others go far lower with very strong results (burr740). I am otherwise, and always have been, dosing at full ei for kno3 (1/4 tsp x3 week), kh2po4 (1/16th tsp x3 week) and I dose extra k2so4 at 1/4 tsp x3 a week to eliminate it as a possible issue as the k you get from the other macros isn't a bunch.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hi @Willcooper,

What were your dosing prior to the last 10 days, specifically I am interested in Fe, Mg, and PO4.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Willcooper,
> 
> 
> 
> What were your dosing prior to the last 10 days, specifically I am interested in Fe, Mg, and PO4.




Dosing of macros is what you quoted and I dosed 1/16th + 1/32 + 1/64th tsp csmb 3x week. No mg dosing. 


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Willcooper,

Sometimes it helps me to lay out all of my nutrients and dosing levels and compute the actual ppms I am adding to my tank. This is for your 40 gallon (estimate 36 gallon actual volume). I got the "Previous" dosing levels from post #3 in this thread. Feel free to double check me but assuming the numbers are correct besides the extremely high Ca and Mg levels what else do you see?


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Willcooper,
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes it helps me to lay out all of my nutrients and dosing levels and compute the actual ppms I am adding to my tank. This is for your 40 gallon (estimate 36 gallon actual volume). I got the "Previous" dosing levels from post #3 in this thread. Feel free to double check me but assuming the numbers are correct besides the extremely high Ca and Mg levels what else do you see?




Not sure. Seems you have made assumptions on mg levels I don't understand as the ratio from the water report was 5-1 ca/mg and I also dose API leafzone at 20ml x3 a week which adds an additional .13ppm fe and about 5ppm k putting the dose at .30 x3 a week. What did you notice?








And thank you for the effort in helping me. Appreciated @Seattle_Aquarist 

Side: what part of Seattle? I grew up in Everett 


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Willcooper said:


> Not sure. Seems you have made assumptions on mg levels I don't understand as the ratio from the water report was 5-1 ca/mg and I also dose API leafzone at 20ml x3 a week which adds an additional .13ppm fe and about 5ppm k putting the dose at .30 x3 a week. What did you notice?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I feel from this is since you have a high GH of 14 and you have substantially low Mg that this is your issue. Again the higher your GH the more of a low Mg can cause issue. So would be interested to see what happens when you up the Mg to even out the ratio a bit. Keep me posted bud am very interested in you getting this hopefully resolved :smile2:

And wanted to add at least your report shows your Ca and Mg levels. Mine does not so all I could do was guess maybe it was causing an issue for me? And to find out it was but again not sure if it was me having low Ca, Low Mg, or them far out of balance. I may give them a call as to get a more detailed report.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

clownplanted said:


> What I feel from this is since you have a high GH of 14 and you have substantially low Mg that this is your issue. Again the higher your GH the more of a low Mg can cause issue. So would be interested to see what happens when you up the Mg to even out the ratio a bit. Keep me posted bud am very interested in you getting this hopefully resolved :smile2:
> 
> And wanted to add at least your report shows your Ca and Mg levels. Mine does not so all I could do was guess maybe it was causing an issue for me? And to find out it was but again not sure if it was me having low Ca, Low Mg, or them far out of balance. I may give them a call as to get a more detailed report.




In my eyes my mg levels would be at 17ppm based on the report and maybe up to 20-24ppm if the ratios stayed with the ca test result ratios. I just didn't get where he put 36ppm for mg. My plan was to increase mg by 6-10ppm to bring it, hopefully, inline with 100-120ppm ca from the test kit at a 4-1 ratio. 


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Willcooper,

I derived the Mg level by taking ratio of the high ppm of Ca (82) and Mg (27) so 27/82 or 0.33 times your current Ca of 110 (average of 100 - 120) equals 36.2. However here is the glitch, if there is 110 ppm of Ca in your tank I would expect your dGH to be 15.6 dGH based upon Ca alone and if your Mg was 36.2 that would add an additional 8.4 dGH which would mean that your total dGH would be 15.6 + 8.4 = 24.0 - however in post #10 you indicate that your dGH is 14. Obviously I am missing something.

I'm working on my 92 yo mother's tax return today - I will dig into this more tomorrow. BTW, I don't disagree that Mg may be an issue, and sometimes we have to make an educated guess, but I would like to look more closely at other possibilities as well. Along with forgetting the API Leaf Zone I also forgot the addition B you are/were currently dosing.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Willcooper,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think you typed in 27ppm mg when it should have been 17ppm mg based on the water report unless you are doing something else. The low high of mg was 3-17ppm mg (town of queen creek, not h20 or Johnson utilities). 

My understanding of the API gh test kit may be off as well. I was looking at 14 drops equaling 250.6 ppm which I thought was taking into account the 120ppm ca, the roughly 24ppm mg and then "other" particulate such as sodium which on the water report was 90ppm which equals 234 ppm. So close to the 250.6 ppm. Correct me if I'm not right about what it is actually measuring. 
@Seattle_Aquarist have fun with those taxes. Lol. 


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Willcooper said:


> I think you typed in 27ppm mg when it should have been 17ppm mg based on the water report unless you are doing something else. The low high of mg was 3-17ppm mg (town of queen creek, not h20 or Johnson utilities).
> 
> My understanding of the API gh test kit may be off as well. I was looking at 14 drops equaling 250.6 ppm which I thought was taking into account the 120ppm ca, the roughly 24ppm mg and then "other" particulate such as sodium which on the water report was 90ppm which equals 234 ppm. So close to the 250.6 ppm. Correct me if I'm not right about what it is actually measuring.
> @Seattle_Aquarist have fun with those taxes. Lol.
> ...


Makes sense and think your logic is correct. The 17ppm mg is the high. You are mostly correct with the 14 dGH equaling actually exactly 250.04(14x17.86=250.04ppm) Most multiply or divide by 17.9 since its rounded up but the exact formula is multiply or divide by 17.86 for the exact ppm/degree measurement. Then again we do not know the exact dGH do we since it can be in the low/med/high 14 degree. Sorry to be exact but many say I am a perfectionist for a reason :grin2:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/hardness-larryfrank.html


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

So I called my water company since they did not publish the Ca,Mg levels of my water and my deficiencies were right on with what I thought was going on but could never prove in my case. So aparently I have the posibility of getting water from one of three possible water treatment centers. Depends mostly on time of hear and peak usage. So my dGH from tap since I have been measuring the last couple months has been 6. I found out that my Ca and Mg are really low and my assumption was correct in this is what was causing my plant problems. See below. This is why when I started adding GH booster which would give enough Ca and Mg all the issues went away. 

Chock Bluff Winter/Spring (December to April)
Ca 7.2ppm
Mg 2.2ppm

Glendal treatment (comes turns on last week of april turns off first week of november).
Ca 9.0ppm
Mg 3.0

Well comes in only when absolutely needed (Peak water usage time during summer)
Ca 11.2
Mg 7.3


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

1 dGH Ca = 7mgl
1 dGH Mg = 4.4mgl

70mgl Ca = 10dGH
17.6mgl Mg = 4dGH

120mgl Ca = 17dGH


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Initial update after change;

I just performed a 75% water change and have added mgso4 to 5ppm (1.5 tspn based on 40 gallons water volume). I have also reduced csmb dosing to 1/32 tspn which is .10 fe per rotallabutterfly. I will monitor for any yellowing. I was surprised to see no change in my gh after adding 5ppm mg. I thought there would be a 2dgh lift or there abouts. 


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Willcooper said:


> Initial update after change;
> 
> I just performed a 75% water change and have added mgso4 to 5ppm (1.5 tspn based on 40 gallons water volume). I have also reduced csmb dosing to 1/32 tspn which is .10 fe per rotallabutterfly. I will monitor for any yellowing. I was surprised to see no change in my gh after adding 5ppm mg. I thought there would be a 2dgh lift or there abouts.
> 
> ...




Actually adding 5ppm of mgso4 should up your dGH by just one according to calculator. 


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Willcooper said:


> Initial update after change;
> 
> I just performed a 75% water change and have added mgso4 to 5ppm (1.5 tspn based on 40 gallons water volume). I have also reduced csmb dosing to 1/32 tspn which is .10 fe per rotallabutterfly. I will monitor for any yellowing. I was surprised to see no change in my gh after adding 5ppm mg. I thought there would be a 2dgh lift or there abouts.
> 
> ...




Any notice of improvement yet? Maybe too soon to tell yet but am so anxious lol 


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

clownplanted said:


> Any notice of improvement yet? Maybe too soon to tell yet but am so anxious lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Too soon to tell. I trimmed the l repens and the 1" or so of new growth looks good. The l super red still looks terrible yet growing in height quickly. 


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Well what do you make of this?















I don't think it's green water as it's not really green but more of a haze. Not white or anything just hazy. A sliver of direct sunlight has been hitting the tank but it only lasts maybe 30 minutes a day as the sun sets. Water change was Tuesday which was 75%. 

What do ya think? 


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Willcooper said:


> Well what do you make of this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really hard to tell but if it is green water algae or something else you can tell by doing this. Put some filter floss, I like to use 100% polyester polyfill in your filter. If after 24-48 hours you see green then it is green algae. If its normal brownish/black then its something else. Also check your purigen, is it brown so possible aged and needs to be treated and or replaced? I would really check the filter. If you do not use purigren I would highly suggest it as could really help clear this up.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

clownplanted said:


> Really hard to tell but if it is green water algae or something else you can tell by doing this. Put some filter floss, I like to use 100% polyester polyfill in your filter. If after 24-48 hours you see green then it is green algae. If its normal brownish/black then its something else. Also check your purigen, is it brown so possible aged and needs to be treated and or replaced? I would really check the filter. If you do not use purigren I would highly suggest it as could really help clear this up.




Not currently using purigin and I took your advice and added cotton to the filter and after 12 hours it's just a little brown. I'll leave it in and see. 


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

I thought this was funny. Looking up a YouTube video of rotala I notice Tropica is having the same issue as I have been having with the ludwigia super red. Notice the curled growth along the sides and the tip of their ludwigia P. You can see it best at 1:50. https://youtu.be/p54PyDk1p-c


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Without looking back if you did list what substrate are you using? 

Crazy in the video they have the same issue. Makes me think if it has to do with inert vs non inert substrate. Just a thought. 


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

2 year old Ecocomplete. No buffering but high cec. Some sand in the front. 

Oh by the way, it is green water. My cotton has a def ting of green now. Don't have access to a uv sterilizer so I'm going to take it as an opportunity to rescape. Complete tear down. 


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Willcooper said:


> 2 year old Ecocomplete. No buffering but high cec. Some sand in the front.
> 
> Oh by the way, it is green water. My cotton has a def ting of green now. Don't have access to a uv sterilizer so I'm going to take it as an opportunity to rescape. Complete tear down.
> 
> ...




Figured it was as looked like it to me. Well keep us updated. Sorry you have to now also deal with the green water. 


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Rescape done and green water gone. Funny enough I didn't dose micros for ten days or so do to the green water and the new growth on the ludwigia repens looks great. The ludwigia super red mini still looks terrible though.









40 gallon breeder journal

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh.../forums/showthread.php?t=1143114&share_type=t


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Hard to say how much this means but I haven't dosed this tank in 2 weeks now and the ludwigia repens is doing better than ever










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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Am thinking toxicity in your case. High cec substrate can cause this. So plants will store nutrients for up to a couple few weeks worth then if you continue to not dose then will show signs of deficiency again once their store is gone. I'll post a link explaining the issue. Basically once the substrate is unable to store any more nutrients and metals is starts releasing toxic metals into the water column causing issues. https://sites.google.com/site/aquaticplantfertilizer/home/te-too-low-high

I am sure its not something you want to hear and may not believe in but there are cases out there that this is the issue. 


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

clownplanted said:


> Am thinking toxicity in your case. High cec substrate can cause this. So plants will store nutrients for up to a couple few weeks worth then if you continue to not dose then will show signs of deficiency again once their store is gone. I'll post a link explaining the issue. Basically once the substrate is unable to store any more nutrients and metals is starts releasing toxic metals into the water column causing issues. https://sites.google.com/site/aquaticplantfertilizer/home/te-too-low-high
> 
> I am sure its not something you want to hear and may not believe in but there are cases out there that this is the issue.
> 
> ...




I believe it. I'll start dosing again shortly but am going to stay with macros until my plants say otherwise. 


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## Remmy (Jan 10, 2007)

Ill add mine here as well
Ludwigia Ovalis and Mini super red
the colors are washed out, actual colors are orangy/pink for ovalis and crimson for the red

I specifically low dose micros at about 1/4 of EI
Other stems like Rotala Rotundifolia and Macaranda green are doing well
S. Repens suffering from TERRIBLE cupping

Inert substrate sand/gravel


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Remmy said:


> Ill add mine here as well
> Ludwigia Ovalis and Mini super red
> the colors are washed out, actual colors are orangy/pink for ovalis and crimson for the red
> 
> ...


Hi Remmy;

Does the issue seem to be occurring on older leaves and the leaves are 'curling' along the edges (either upwards or downwards)'?

If so the most common reason would be insufficient magnesium (Mg).


> Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...*magnesium deficiency*


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

@Remmy I agree with @Seattle_Aquarist I have learned that the ratio of Mg can also depend on the amount and if you are dosing EI. For example if you are dosing 1/4 as stated micro then you CAN get away with lower amount of MG in relation to micro amount but still need some. Do you know your GH? Amount of Mg, K and Ca?


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## Remmy (Jan 10, 2007)

clownplanted said:


> @Remmy I agree with @Seattle_Aquarist I have learned that the ratio of Mg can also depend on the amount and if you are dosing EI. For example if you are dosing 1/4 as stated micro then you CAN get away with lower amount of MG in relation to micro amount but still need some. Do you know your GH? Amount of Mg, K and Ca?


Unfortunately i do not have test kits to know
My local water should be moderately hard, definitely not soft
Potassium i dose extra at 1/8 tsp 2x week (~40 gallon tank)

The symptoms are most prominent in newer growth, older leaves have a bit of contortion but not quite as bad as new growth
The Super red mini shows extreme edge curling(new growth), the Ovalis is contorted on the entire leaf not just edges but in a smoother manner

What would be a suitable amount in tsp of Mg to dose?


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Remmy said:


> Unfortunately i do not have test kits to know
> 
> My local water should be moderately hard, definitely not soft
> 
> ...




What is your tank size? And how deep substrate?

Would try and get a detailed water report to get a good idea of what your levels are. Is what I had to do in my case. You may not need any Mg but you may. Thing is you do not want to start adding Mg unless you know your level. If you have hard water you should have enough but again you may not. 
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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

Update:

The ludwigia repens is no longer curling. What I have done is reduce micro dosing to .05ppm iron via csmb and I keep the plant itself shorter. It may have been the taller growth caused more demand for some nutrient. That nutrient is what I'm not sure about since all I did was reduce demand. The ludwigia super red mini still looks pretty bad but maybe not as bad. 

I think I will try to add some calcium and magnesium as the plants grow back up (just trimmed) to see what effect that is. One problem I have is that the only calcium source I have is cuttlebone. I'll have to figure a way to grind it up into a powder so I can more precisely dose it with some mgso4. 


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Willcooper,

How about a current picture of the plants and what they are doing now?


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

I just trimmed both so I'll give them a few days and then I'll post some pics. 


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Willcooper said:


> Update:
> 
> The ludwigia repens is no longer curling. What I have done is reduce micro dosing to .05ppm iron via csmb and I keep the plant itself shorter. It may have been the taller growth caused more demand for some nutrient. That nutrient is what I'm not sure about since all I did was reduce demand. The ludwigia super red mini still looks pretty bad but maybe not as bad.
> 
> ...



$3 for one pound. http://nilocg.com/calcium-sulfate-caso4-1lb/



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