# Lowest maintenance tank for vacation home, possible?



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

I must confess that this is probably a bad idea, but would be great if it works.

I always wanted to have a tank in winter vacation home, but this home is unoccupied from June to Oct. After reading wkndracer's  super low maintenance 55g. I am having fantasies. Once established wknracer change water very few months, no CO2 and no dosing. 

What I want to do:
1. A super low tech 150-180g dirt tank designed to run without CO2 and dosing.
2. Lighting and feeding on timer.
3. Will have a webcam focused on it during the vacant months.
4. Can have friends to stop by infrequently to add food to feeder or perform emergency rescue.
5. Hardy fishes.
6. Slow growing plants.

Problems:
1. In summer, outside temp can go up to 125deg.
2. Power outage.
3. Leak etc.,

For the hot summer temp. I am thinking of running say 50ft of tubes 2-3 ft under ground and run the aquarium water thru the loop constantly or controlled by a thermostat. If I start in say Nov, I will have 5-6 months to get it established ...

Thoughts?


----------



## sweet chariot (Nov 14, 2010)

My tank is the same low tech, except it uses gravel and its in my home so I don't use a timer. That part is definitely possible.

The part I would worry about would be the feeding on a timer, since I haven't heard much good with automatic feeders. I do like the idea of the underground tubing to regulate the temperature. Also, not being able to do water changes if something goes wrong seems a bit worrisome. Otherwise, though, it sounds interesting!


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

For automatic feeder, I am thinking of investing in some heavy duty feeder like this one:

http://www.super-feed.com/

I am thinking of mostly gouramis for their abilities to tolerate higher temp and low oxygen. Not sure about other gouramis, paradise fishes in their natural habitat are known to survive dry seasons in small puddle of water with minimum food for months. 

Of course decent battery backup system would be a must for the geothermal pumps.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I personally wouldn't even consider it unless you also hire a company to maintain it.


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

lauraleellbp said:


> I personally wouldn't even consider it unless you also hire a company to maintain it.


My sentiment exactly until I read wkndracer's super low maintenance 55g.

I am still not 100% sure though.


----------



## jsuereth (Dec 21, 2010)

I read about a dude in europe that went almost 100% low tech. The idea is you get a soil substrate, tons of marginal plants. Place the tank near a southern window so it can get some sun. You put leaves in the aquarium. This is the only food source you will use. Find some cyclops or other fw copepods and get these growing. These should eat the leaves (yes, somehow he didnt need shredders to break up the leaves) and multiply substantially. After this, stock with one or two scarlet badis (carnivorous).

The plants are the only filter and leaves the only food. You need to ensure enough coverage that the copepods provide a sustainable food source for the dario dario.

The blog had this setup going for a full year or more, so It sounds feasible. You would still want your friends to feed the tank with leaves every few weeks.

Basically, its a crazy idea that one dude made work. Id love to hear if you could set it up again, but totally understand not wanting to try this for so remote a setup  its definitely worth a read and here's the link (low-tech natural aquarium). I hope to one day try it myself, but the wife is making me stick to the one 125g i uave


----------



## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Tubifex (as well as cyclops, daphnia and copepods) are great live food that fish can find, and can survive (seeming no matter what) long periods without being actually fed. I have some in with a cherry shrimp tank, they were in the substrate from when the tank was full of fish. I only feed my cherries once in a while, but keep almond leaves in the tank, so they must be eating the almond leaves as they decompose.

It's not a great idea if you're only going there once or twice a year, but if you go there every month, I see no problem keeping the right fish in there.

The temperature is another thing entirely... If it's getting 90+ in there, you're not going to be able to keep much of anything alive, including copepods and tubifex. And with pumps going through the ground and such, there's a lot of things that can go wrong. First off, if it's 90 degrees in the vacation home, and 70-75 in the tank, you're going to have massive condensation on the tank, which means the stand, the floor, the walls will all start rotting and getting moldy. Bad situation, but if you're there in the summer, with AC on, or have fans going in the house all the time, it would be less of a problem. Then there's the problem with evaporation... Regardless of having covers on the tank, there will be evap. In summer months, my 55g with glass lids will lose 3-4 gallons a week, that's with the temperature being 90 indoors, tank temperature 78. If you have really good buddies that will top off the tanks and such, that would be nice. But I see this tank idea being a ton of trouble.

If you spend a month or so there in the summer or whatnot, maybe you can transport paradise fish or bettas, or gouramis or other labyrinth fish there and back... Keep the tank up, lights on timers, seran wrap the top of the tank while you're gone to minimize the evap, then do a water change when you get there, and toss your fish in there while you're there, then transport them to your home tank when you're home.... It's a little trouble, but sounds like a lot less trouble than trying to maintain a tank remotely for months.

Anyhow, I envy your endeavors!


----------



## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

I don't think low maintenance means that you can leave a tank on it's own for a month or more. Even if your tank doesn't need much day to day maintenance you are still there to notice if the heater suddenly dies and starts cooking the occupants or the glass cracks or something gets sick and you need to treat the tank or you get a couple of dead fish that need removing etc. I think fish are just as much a responsibility as any other animal and if you can't be there to look after them then probably best not to get them in the first place.


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

jsuereth:
That was such good read and definitely inspiring. I can't follow 100% as I definitely need water movement due to temperature issues. But it was good to know that we were thinking of familiar type of fishes, ie the air breathing gouramis.


mordalphus:
Ton of trouble for sure, therefore, I haven't done anything. Amongst all the trouble, I see water temp control as the biggest issue. Otherwise:

The tank will be placed in covered outdoor patio, so no moisture evaporation problem. 

Water topping up can be done by fill valve used in toilets, luckily, my water district use chlorine, so easier to deal with. In fact a constant drip system works too, that will eliminate the need of fill valve but use more water. A bit wasteful.


----------



## jsuereth (Dec 21, 2010)

My father-in-law had the idea to put a drip pan under the aquarium. I think this could help in the event of a leak, but would do nothing for aquarium seal failure (the water has sone velocity and distance here.)

Do you think the all natural aquarium would work with a sump? You might be able to create a refugium in it for the amphipod/copepods to feed the main tank, and you would have your flow. I know reefers use refugiums for copepids, but not in the sustainable food source way.


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

I think this is totally possible. I say run with it


----------



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

put some java fern and guppies in there with a dozen gold snails. Add tubifex to dirt. Set auto feeder to small amounts and you will be fine.


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

F22 said:


> I think this is totally possible. I say run with it


not until I figure out the temp control issue :redface:


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

I am thinking of a continuous dripping plus an in ground cooling, like this:









The constant drip will take care of the evaporation and water quality issues. An overflow directs the water to an underground storage, probably a 55 gallon plastic drum. 

In the underground storage, two pumps. a sump pump recyles the water for irrigation. Another pump will be controlled by thermostat, when the aquarium temp becomes too high, cooler water will be pumped to the aquarium via 20ft of pipes that are buried 5' under.

Think this will work? Prolonged power outage will ruin everything.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Better read your homeowner insurance policy carefully to be sure you don't void your warranty.


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

lauraleellbp said:


> Better read your homeowner insurance policy carefully to be sure you don't void your warranty.


Please elaborate? I thought geothermal is a pretty common thing and promoted by Fed with tax incentive etc.? Am I missing something?


----------



## ktownhero (Mar 21, 2011)

toffee said:


> My sentiment exactly until I read wkndracer's super low maintenance 55g.
> 
> I am still not 100% sure though.


I don't understand how wkndracer's tank made you think it would be ok to leave a tank alone for 5-6 months out of the year? 

low-maintenance != no-maintenance

He still feeds his tank. He still tops the water off. He still sees it every day to make sure the lights and filters haven't pooped out.


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

jsuereth said:


> I read about a dude in europe that went almost 100% low tech. The idea is you get a soil substrate, tons of marginal plants. Place the tank near a southern window so it can get some sun. You put leaves in the aquarium. This is the only food source you will use. Find some cyclops or other fw copepods and get these growing. These should eat the leaves (yes, somehow he didnt need shredders to break up the leaves) and multiply substantially. After this, stock with one or two scarlet badis (carnivorous).
> 
> The plants are the only filter and leaves the only food. You need to ensure enough coverage that the copepods provide a sustainable food source for the dario dario.
> 
> ...





ktownhero said:


> I don't understand how wkndracer's tank made you think it would be ok to leave a tank alone for 5-6 months out of the year?
> 
> low-maintenance != no-maintenance
> 
> He still feeds his tank. He still tops the water off. He still sees it every day to make sure the lights and filters haven't pooped out.


Ktownhereo,
My thought exactly, no maintenance sounded unreal. But after reading jsuereth's posting of that European dude's low-tech natural aquarium, I am inspired. 

Think about it, water topping off will be eliminated with constant dripping. wkndracer changes his filter media once every few months, in fact, wkndracer only has mechanical filter for his tank. Lighting? I am seriously thinking of defused sunlight since the tank will be sitting under a skylight. Artificial lights as backup which can be switched on and off via internet. Feeding is even less of concern as I can have a friend stop by to fill that heavy duty automatic feeder once a month or so.

Water temp control, ummm, still very problematic.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm not referring to your plumbing design, I'm referring to whether or not an insurance agent would consider it "willful neglect" or something similar and refuse to cover you should the tank plumbing fail at any point without you there to monitor it.

I don't have any person experience with insurance or anything, I just think it's something I would look into very carefully before going much further.

I personally think the changes of it being successful, much less attractive, are very slim.

I mean, my tank looked like this just after 2 weeks of me gone-

























When I was in Bolivia for 10 days a few years ago, I came back to Clado having overrun and choking out almost the entire carpet in this same tank.

I'm sure if I had been gone much longer, I would not have had many plants left when I got back...


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

lauraleellbp said:


> I'm not referring to your plumbing design, I'm referring to whether or not an insurance agent would consider it "willful neglect" or something similar and refuse to cover you should the tank plumbing fail at any point without you there to monitor it.
> 
> I don't have any person experience with insurance or anything, I just think it's something I would look into very carefully before going much further.


Good point about home insurance! I called my Allstate insurance agent and insist that she talk to her underwriter about the neglect. Apparently, the underground water storage is no different from ran barrels with sump pump or any house with a basement sump pump. They cautioned me about using only GFCI outlet. Since the tank will be outdoor, they don't see any difference between tank vs pond. So they are good with that. 

I do have a few worries but all seems to have some level assurance. ie 

tank leak ... wet floor ... but outdoor.
tank leak ... heater ... too hot to need them.
tank leak ... pump keeps running, I can switch it off remotely via internet. 
pump failed ... call friend.

I think the worst is power outage, like the circuit breaker. Guess I do have to talk to the landscape maintenance company and arrange with them to be the backup.

Earthquake! ummm, not sure the tank will be the only thing that needs rescue.


----------



## jsuereth (Dec 21, 2010)

Laureleelbp does have a point about looks. If you read the post, the in-between-the-lines suggestion is to pick plants that are happy with each other. i.e. They can successfully compete with each other and have no clear winner. This means aquascaping and plant choice will be incredibly important if you want something that can stand for 6 months with low maintenance.

Im betting the first few years would hopefully be enough to find a good balance here. Allow plants to go emergent might also help prevent them from starving each other. I do think its.possible, but hard.

If it werent outside I wouldnt really encourage it so much.


----------



## tuffgong (Apr 13, 2010)

I think it can be done successfully with the proper planning and resources. My 55 gallon is super low tech and if I cut the lighting period down I could stop dosing the water column completely and just have to feed the fish. I have left that tank 2 times for 3-4 week periods and I have experienced zero problems. As long as you are able to monitor the tank and have someone who can get to it in an emergency I don't really see any major problems that can't be mitigated through really good planning. I personally like the jungley over grown look and having to trim the tank gives you something to do when you are there.

Good Luck and keep us posted!


----------



## kirk (Apr 4, 2011)

A challenge indeed...

perhaps an air diffuser in the ground tank to prevent things from getting funky when the pumps are not running for any length of time.

be sure to have enough run of pipe in the ground to cool the water adequately.

be sure the ground temp 5' down in a climate reaching 125* F will be cool enough.

There is a lot to consider and much of it will not be evident until the tank's been set up and operating (as intended while vacant) for a while to see when and what problems arise. It just takes a little thing to cause a problem. This will not be a simple system...

Having said that, it's possible. Consider the flora and fauna carefully and compassionately. Have some backup plans.

Good Luck

kirk


----------



## PaulG (Oct 10, 2010)

Set up a weblink to keep an eye on it? Possibly, maybe?


----------



## farmhand (Jun 25, 2009)

PaulG said:


> Set up a weblink to keep an eye on it? Possibly, maybe?


What a great idea! Now we can watch algae grow online.


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

kirk said:


> A challenge indeed...
> 
> perhaps an air diffuser in the ground tank to prevent things from getting funky when the pumps are not running for any length of time.
> 
> ...


My original approach of running an open loop geothermal won't work because the pump isn't running 24x7, only pump when water reaches certain temp. When the pump isn't running, water in the pipes become stagnant. 

I have to run a closed loop system. Fluid in the geothermal pipes will never have direct interaction with the aquarium water. I think I can build a heat exchanger with 3/8" titanium pipes, something like this:


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

PaulG said:


> Set up a weblink to keep an eye on it? Possibly, maybe?


Yes, webcam on the tank 24x7 with some sort of security cam that can be controlled remotely via internet. I have that at home so very doable. In fact, all pumps, lights etc will be controllable remotely via internet also. Cam and pumps will be on different circuit breakers.

Deal killer for all this devices would be trip in circuit breaker. That, I have to use a life line and call a friend.


----------



## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

I realize that it's not your dream and all, but is there a compelling reason you wouldn't take the fish with you when you leave the vacation home? I can definitely see the desire for an aquarium in the vacation home, but there are so many things that could go wrong with this that it seems like an extremely expensive way to execute some gouramis. I still wouldn't do it, personally, but it seems that you'd avoid an awful lot of the difficulties if you removed the critters from the equation and only had to deal with trying to keep a bucket of plants alive for the summer. 

Here's an idea. Buy a thermometer that connects to your computer (you had mentioned a webcam on it anyway) and track the temperature for the summer while you're gone. You could also do active pH monitoring reasonably cheaply in the same way, and perhaps dissolved O2. Have the software record the temp/pH once every half hour and review the information regularly. Assuming it doesn't turn into a festering cesspool on you, you'd also know whether it was suitable for fish to live in.


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

jasonpatterson said:


> I realize that it's not your dream and all, but is there a compelling reason you wouldn't take the fish with you when you leave the vacation home? I can definitely see the desire for an aquarium in the vacation home, but there are so many things that could go wrong with this that it seems like an extremely expensive way to execute some gouramis. I still wouldn't do it, personally, but it seems that you'd avoid an awful lot of the difficulties if you removed the critters from the equation and only had to deal with trying to keep a bucket of plants alive for the summer.
> 
> Here's an idea. Buy a thermometer that connects to your computer (you had mentioned a webcam on it anyway) and track the temperature for the summer while you're gone. You could also do active pH monitoring reasonably cheaply in the same way, and perhaps dissolved O2. Have the software record the temp/pH once every half hour and review the information regularly. Assuming it doesn't turn into a festering cesspool on you, you'd also know whether it was suitable for fish to live in.


Good points, I may have my priorities wrong as I am more worried about keeping plants alive and algae in control than keeping fishes alive. 

Being outdoor, I am afraid of the tanking becoming breeding ground for mosquitoes. I may have to keep some fish as "pest control". Gouramis in their natural habitat endured in small puddle of rice paddy water under super hot tropical sun. They developed labyrinth to deal with hot nutrient rich water that was low in oxygen.

Plants, I am not so sure, The location gets 6 hours of filtered desert sun which may still be too strong. Unless I go for all fast growers like water sprite to give algae a run for their nutrients? May be I can hang some shade cloth in front of the tank? 

50% shade cloth:








80% shade cloth:


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

toffee said:


> Gouramis in their natural habitat endured in small puddle of rice paddy water under super hot tropical sun. They developed labyrinth to deal with hot nutrient rich water that was low in oxygen.


That's a very common misconception, I'm afraid.

First of all, rice paddies are hundreds of thousands of gallons. Any gourami left stranded in just a small puddle would end up being a dead gourami relatively quickly, unless it were able to flip itself into a bigger body of water.

Gambusia (mosquitofish) might be a good choice for this tank.

And I think the shadecloth will be a good idea.


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

lauraleellbp said:


> That's a very common misconception, I'm afraid.
> 
> First of all, rice paddies are hundreds of thousands of gallons. Any gourami left stranded in just a small puddle would end up being a dead gourami relatively quickly, unless it were able to flip itself into a bigger body of water.
> 
> ...


I think the shadecloth is probably a must have, got to experiment to find the right one though. 

Do you think 6 hours of sunlight with 60% shadecloth will be low light enough to favor plants against algae?

This is from shadeclothstore.com


> 30% Shade Cloth - Great for pond netting and for keeping larger leaves out of swimming pools. For growers, 30% is perfect for protecting your geraniums and chrysanthemums.
> 
> 40% Shade Cloth - Keep your veggies from burning with the 40%. Also great for lillies and bedding plants.
> 
> ...


I am not an expert on Gouramis so I can definitely be wrong. I did see some partially dried out rice paddies during tours to south Asia so I based my assumption on that and gourami's unique ability to breath air to survive in warm oxygen depleted water. My last gourami was a tough paradise fish that lived with bunch of cichlids inches bigger.


----------



## toffee (Apr 2, 2007)

Find the gadget to remotely monitor and control pumps, heaters, lights etc.,

http://www.drdaq.com/

It can attach multiple sensors (temp + ph), control of devices, data logging, USB to a PC for remote access.



> Doctor Aquarium is low cost, professional aquarium monitoring and control software package for Windows XP, 2000, and NT that will help you automate the most challenging repetitive aquarium tasks! From the comfort of your computer chair, or across the world, control and monitor important aquarium parameters like temperature and pH using the inexpensive DrDAQ data acquisition board, and control your Pumps,Heaters,Lights remotely using standard X10 home automation modules.


Anyone got experience to share?


----------



## RonPaul (Jul 10, 2011)

So whatever happened; did you get it set up and running?


----------



## msharper (Aug 19, 2011)

This is totally possible! When I was 13 I had a pair of blue gouramis in a 15 gallon tank with some random floating plants that just took it over. Total neglect on my part led to at least six months with zero maintenance and only top ups when the water got ridiculously low! I was so young and immature I didn't even treat the water. Just straight from the tap! Believe it or not those tow fish spawned and I had a tank full of wigglers! I'm telling you. If you don't over think it sometimes and probably if you stock very lightly it will work out. Not to mention even if it does go out of control during the off season. It will be only an hour or so of work to get it back into shape.
Go for it!


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

With out even reading, I think it's totally possible. I have had tanks that I didn't really do anything to for 4-5 months. They were not stocked. I also have tanks where I only fed fish. If it's slow growing enough, I think it would be fine.

Now, outside of the obvious things that can fail, there are some other things. You may come back to a tank that is just well foregone in terms of cleanup that you want to do on vacation. For me, that would be a big deal, I would focus my time on any algae issues, any fish issues, until I felt like they were fixed. That's me. Worse, if I don't feel it's fixed, I know what I will come back to. Then I would find it to be a pain and call it done.


----------



## gbose (Nov 21, 2010)

I think you're pushing it to have a tank that you only see every 6 months. I'd be even more concerned about the 'friends to stop by infrequently to add food to feeder'. You hear more about well-meaning friends who wipe out a tank by over-feeding.

If you can figure out a reliable way to keep the tank topped up, try heavily planted and lightly stocked. I suggest guppies (the 'wild' or 'feeder' type -- they are tough).

Or maybe just try an outdoor pond?

Good luck!

GB


----------



## bbroush (Sep 13, 2012)

Did this ever happen?


----------



## tomfromstlouis (Apr 2, 2012)

What an interesting and challenging idea! I too would like to know if the OP tried this.

One aspect that was not mentioned that would concern me would be predators. An outdoor tank with nothing but wildlife around might easily attract a predator interested in some fishing. 

The geothermal idea for water cooling sounds workable to me, if expensive. Just loop a cooling line through the tank or sump for temp control.


----------

