# sump design



## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

Try and keep it simple. Here is my set up: 20 gal PETCO tank with 1/4inch acrylic baffles and Poret sponge


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## Xenaph (Dec 9, 2013)

Do you have a picture all setup ?


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

There are a few pics of my setup in my journal.

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## latent (Dec 7, 2016)

Xenaph,

Keep in mind baffles are only "needed" for a saltwater sump because a protein skimmer requires a set working water level to function properly. Other than separating areas in a sump, there is no actual need for baffles in a freshwater sump. Keep that in mind when designing it. With that said, I only use one "baffle" and it is to separate my return pump area. Otherwise, it is one big open refugium with shrimp, plants, fry etc.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Couple things:

1. Does that first baffle go all the way to the top? If for some reason something gets clogged you want the water to run into the empty tank space not onto your floor. Lower it down at least an inch from the top.

2. Baffles 2,3,6 and 7 aren't doing anything. They can be removed with no loss in function. Additionally it will make cleaning much easier because you can't fit your hand in 2" sections which will eventually be annoying.

3. Might be helpful to tell us your plan for each chamber, that will give a better idea on sizing.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Baffles are necessary IMO in a freshwater sump. At least a bare minimum to promote flow through media. I used a no baffle sump and getting flow through the bio media was an issue.


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## Xenaph (Dec 9, 2013)

I finally go with this one, it almost the same at the first but baffle is different. 

In the first chamber, i will put 3 soxs.
The second chamber will put 3 kings of sponge.
The third want, i will put some marine pure.

The last glass, dont know if it will be 13" or 12"

The sump dimension will be 30"x20"x16" for the main tank with 48"x24"x20".

This one look nice too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BncyN6v5jkI


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

How large a tank are you going to use this sump on?

I would say that you have a way too complex design. Note the flow in the sump in the video you posted. The water runs down in one chamben and up in the next, and as such only needs four baffles. You have 7 in your design.

Also don't feel you need to jam in every kind of filter media under the sun. If your running the sponges, your not going to need the marine pure. Pick one or the other.

Those baffle pairs you have don't really do much. Every one you add is something you got to clean. In a SW reef sump you use pairs like this to form a bubble trap to preven any micro bubbles from the skimmer from getting into the display tank. You just don't need them in FW because your not using a skimmer.

Keep that return chamber as big as you reasonably can. It's got to be able to contain all the live water in the system That is all the water that will flow into the sump when the power is turned off. 

Simplify your plan and you'll get a better sump for a lot less work.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

DaveK said:


> How large a tank are you going to use this sump on?
> 
> I would say that you have a way too complex design. Note the flow in the sump in the video you posted. The water runs down in one chamben and up in the next, and as such only needs four baffles. You have 7 in your design.
> 
> ...


I pretty much agree with all of this. For me, having the socks really simplifies the setup. I would go with 2 baffles, 3 if you really want a separated heating chamber. Drain into filter sock, first baffle stops about an inch from the bottom, debris is pulled into the sock and water flows down, next baffle is a few inches from the top, water is pulled UP through your bio media of choice, last baffle is optional, it pulls water back down past your heaters, last chamber is as large as possible. The last chamber not only holds water during a power outage, which is usually a very small amount, but is the chamber where ALL evaporation for the entire system will come from! 

I am using a 4 baffle design in my next sump. Just enough to get the water to pass through specific medias in the direction I want. I prefer water to flow from the top to the bottom of mechanical media so you can see it get dirty and when you pull it out, it all comes out. Other than that, flow direction doesn't matter.


EDIT: Looked at yours a little bit more. You can simplify that to look like this:





Two baffles, promotes flow through entire media and leaves you the most room for evaporation. With a small final chamber, you risk evaporation causing pump damage. Remember your tank will evaporate for the surface area of the tank AND the sump.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

The more baffles you use the more CO2 that will be outgassed in the sump....
Next the higher the last baffle is the less water you have in the last compartment.
Less volume in the last section leads to more top offs do evaporation.
For FW it is sad so many try to emulate reef filters ,they are contrary to what you really need.
I have 2 reefs and run 2 other sumps on FW also..4 sumps 2 FW,2 reef..
The last design is closest to appropriate IMO but the last baffle is taller then needed.
It will reduce volume , but not as badly as other designs will.
Best freshwater sump yet~Taken right from this site!!!
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/7755609-post46.html


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## Xenaph (Dec 9, 2013)

The 2" baffle is enough big to be clean by a syphon or my hand.
Tha main focus to understand for me is how the media will not jump out of the sump if the flow come from the bottom and not the top that why i have 3 baffles of 2" to let the water go top and down again.

Marine pur is the same thing than a sponge ? I though the marine pure is like bioball or biomax from sachem to get the maximum of bacterial. 

Do you have a sketch for your sump with 4 baffles ?

The sump will be made by an artisan, the same thing for the tank and the stand. It will cost around 3k$.


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## Xenaph (Dec 9, 2013)

Coralbandit said:


> .
> The last design is closest to appropriate IMO but the last baffle is taller then needed.
> It will reduce volume , but not as badly as other designs will.
> Best freshwater sump yet~Taken right from this site!!!
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/7755609-post46.html


In this leak, the biomedia is only in the second chamber ?

Can i see your FW sump ?

Thanks a lot for your comments, tonight will try to do another sketch. (the artisan need one)


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Xenaph said:


> The 2" baffle is enough big to be clean by a syphon or my hand.
> Tha main focus to understand for me is how the media will not jump out of the sump if the flow come from the bottom and not the top that why i have 3 baffles of 2" to let the water go top and down again.
> 
> Marine pur is the same thing than a sponge ? I though the marine pure is like bioball or biomax from sachem to get the maximum of bacterial.
> ...


The media will not "jump out of the sump" because it's a lot heaver than the water your passing through it. Your only going to have this sort of problem if your using a very light media, such as material used for fluidized bed filters. 

Marine pure and sponges are going to do about the same thing in a sump. They collect some dirt and become a host area for bacteria, giving you good biological filtration. The marine pure is going to do a little nicer job here, but it's not that critical a choice. You only need one, sponges or marine pure. You'll be getting your mechanical filtration from the filter socks.

$3000 is an absurd amount to spend on a sump. Consider a DIY project, or contact Lifereef for a quote on custom work. See Lifereef here (offsite) - http://www.lifereef.com/ I think you'll get a much more reasonable price.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Coralbandit said:


> The last design is closest to appropriate IMO but the last baffle is taller then needed.
> It will reduce volume , but not as badly as other designs will.


Is this a reference to my paint picture? The taller the last baffle, in that design, the more water available for evaporation under intended running conditions.


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## slythy (Sep 1, 2015)

You will learn to hate that sump. I have a 48" sump and i dont have enough space. you want all your equipment in there and not in the tank. You wont be able to fit heater or a reactor or anything in there. it looks like its just there to flow water up and down and nothing else.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

slythy said:


> You will learn to hate that sump. I have a 48" sump and i dont have enough space. you want all your equipment in there and not in the tank. You wont be able to fit heater or a reactor or anything in there. it looks like its just there to flow water up and down and nothing else.


Really??? I have a 75g sump and I feel like I have a ton of space. I will say this one appears very small, like many of the commercial sumps. I always aim for as large of a sump as possible to increase system water volume.


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

Have to agree with @Freemananana. I have a 20gal sump and it is big enough for the drain, 2 heaters, mech. and bio filtration, pump for the Cerges reactor and the main return pump. If space was not an issue, I would have gone for a larger sump just to increase water volume. 

I use Kaldnes K2 media contained in a mesh bag to stop them from floating all over the sump - the only reason for using this media was that I had some leftover from another project. I have also used lava rocks/pebbles in sumps before.


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## Xenaph (Dec 9, 2013)

The sump doesn't cost 3k$, it is the total of 3 equip (stand tank sump)

The artisan who craft the tank and sump asked me a sketch (draw) of the design

If I want à co2 reactor and purigen, where do I put it ? In an existing chamber (return) or another chamber with different design ? 

If someone can do a sketch for me it will be helpful with all other information.

Xénoph


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## slythy (Sep 1, 2015)

Freemananana said:


> Really??? I have a 75g sump and I feel like I have a ton of space. I will say this one appears very small, like many of the commercial sumps. I always aim for as large of a sump as possible to increase system water volume.


Bashsea ss-48

thats the sump i have. i have a lot more equipment because my tanks 180g aquarium and i have an apex with a ton of probes and a dc return pump with a controller and then a dosing pump and all that crap. so i have 3 heaters a reactor thats sump based, doesnt go into the return. 

I think those little 3" sections in that sump is going to be a nightmare to do stuff in.


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## Xenaph (Dec 9, 2013)

Hi,

With your comments, i finish with this.

What do you think ?
@slythy, how much you paid for the bashsea...i'm thinking to order the co2 reactor from them, Steve is a nice guy.


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## slythy (Sep 1, 2015)

Xenaph said:


> Hi,
> 
> With your comments, i finish with this.
> 
> ...


i like that design so much more than the initial. What style overflow are you doing? i wanted a bean animal style but drilled tank was easier and i went drilled. 

I got the sump for 10% off, so it was like $650. the build quality its fantastic. 

i would change your sock layout based on how many drains you have. i mean you can do 4" socks so you always have one in there so you dont rinse off all the bacteria from your sump away. my first chamber is completely filled with bio media though.


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## Xenaph (Dec 9, 2013)

It will be a bean animal overflow, so 3 in the sump and 2 return in the tank.

Bashsea it is my first choice...but rimless tank cost a lot of money even if i only take 3 glass with starfire...so i need to do comprise.

Maybe later


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## slythy (Sep 1, 2015)

Xenaph said:


> It will be a bean animal overflow, so 3 in the sump and 2 return in the tank.
> 
> Bashsea it is my first choice...but rimless tank cost a lot of money even if i only take 3 glass with starfire...so i need to do comprise.
> 
> Maybe later


how many gallons is it? the display?


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Xenaph said:


> Hi,
> 
> With your comments, i finish with this.
> 
> ...


This is a much better design. I see one change you should make. The third baffle from the left should run higher to keep the water from bypassing the media.

Bump:


Xenaph said:


> It will be a bean animal overflow, so 3 in the sump and 2 return in the tank.
> 
> Bashsea it is my first choice...but rimless tank cost a lot of money even if i only take 3 glass with starfire...so i need to do comprise.
> 
> Maybe later


Since your using a bean animal overflow, you could consider running all the pipes to one large filter sock. In the bean animal design, only 1 pipe carries a lot of water, the emergency pipe only carries water if the main one fails, and the remaining pipe normally only carries a trickle. 

With a filter sock on each, you'll see one get dirty fast, and the other get little use, and the third stay almost clean.


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## slythy (Sep 1, 2015)

DaveK said:


> Since your using a bean animal overflow, you could consider running all the pipes to one large filter sock. In the bean animal design, only 1 pipe carries a lot of water, the emergency pipe only carries water if the main one fails, and the remaining pipe normally only carries a trickle.
> 
> With a filter sock on each, you'll see one get dirty fast, and the other get little use, and the third stay almost clean.


I dont even run filter socks on my emergency drains. they just pour into the sump. :wink2:


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## latent (Dec 7, 2016)

Can I ask why everyone is so concerned about packing their sumps full of bio media?


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

latent said:


> Can I ask why everyone is so concerned about packing their sumps full of bio media?


That's a good question. 

A planted tank, especially a heavily planted one, can provide a tremendous about of biological filtration all by itself. At the extreme end of this are the SW reef systems. With all the live rock in them, they don't need any additional bio media in a sump at all.

I do feel a lot of people do overdo the biomedia in a sump by quite a lot. You actually don't need very much. I think a lot of this is more for peace of mind and a little for bragging rights. You see this a lot in the hobby when it comes to DIY projects. Things tend to get way overbuilt. See the beginning of this thread and how complex the original sump design was, and compare it to the op's current plans. 

I could see needing more biomedia if the tank is going to be mostly hardscape with few or no plants. In that case you need to get the biological filtration from some place.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Planted tanks primarily need mechanical media. I stuffed my sump with bio media so I can setup hospital tanks and such without affecting my main display tank. Also, the bio media I purchased was incredibly cheap due to the bulk nature of it. I have about 5 gallons of it. With that said, I have a 75g sump so there is just a ton of space for things like this and very little downside to having more of it.


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## oval291 (Dec 19, 2016)

Quick question on a freshwater sump does it matter which direction the water flows for bio media like Matrix is...


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

I run my sump basically like a pond. I have a wet-dry at one end and my return pump at the other with the heaters in between. The pump is even in a pond filter box. Leaves lots of open space in the middle to grow floaters, or house the shrimp that I anticipate going for a ride down the overflow.


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## DigityDog70 (Jan 20, 2017)

DaveK said:


> That's a good question.
> 
> A planted tank, especially a heavily planted one, can provide a tremendous about of biological filtration all by itself. At the extreme end of this are the SW reef systems. With all the live rock in them, they don't need any additional bio media in a sump at all.
> 
> ...


Hey Dave,
While we're down in the sump, just wondering what do you use to keep your water nice and shiny in terms of filter, media sponge materials?

Bump:


DaveK said:


> That's a good question.
> 
> A planted tank, especially a heavily planted one, can provide a tremendous about of biological filtration all by itself. At the extreme end of this are the SW reef systems. With all the live rock in them, they don't need any additional bio media in a sump at all.
> 
> ...


Hey Dave,
While we're down in the sump, just wondering what do you use to keep your water nice and shiny in terms of filter, media sponge materials?


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## DigityDog70 (Jan 20, 2017)

slythy said:


> Bashsea ss-48
> 
> thats the sump i have. i have a lot more equipment because my tanks 180g aquarium and i have an apex with a ton of probes and a dc return pump with a controller and then a dosing pump and all that crap. so i have 3 heaters a reactor thats sump based, doesnt go into the return.
> 
> I think those little 3" sections in that sump is going to be a nightmare to do stuff in.


Hey slythy, 

Not to steal from the OP's posting but . I’m researching a, "new 180Gal display and the sump" and found this thread. I enjoyed reading your other post about your equipment. Some nice choices.

Which Apex did you get and how do you like it? I’m going to need a controller to make a long story short. 

Do you have enough room to work on your sump or would you prefer (maybe a little more space for moving your elbows around underneath) if you had to do it again and also would you go with the Bean Animal? 

That eco tech looks like a turbo, pretty cool. 

Are you experiencing any flow restrictions using the Herbie method? Please pardon all of the questions, this will be my first custom "everything and just coming up with design goals is a challenge. I'll admit that there's an element of paranoia when thinking about the possibility of any flood so I have to get a tight design plan and goals in place. 

How is that sump treating you now that it has been running for a while? Just wondering after looking at a few obvious things with regard to, that "peach of a sump". Being this is my first time designing / using a sump, I'm spending a little bit of time just coming up with design goals. I'll probably spend a few hours this weekend hanging out at Bean Animal's Bar & Grill 

Cheers,

DD


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## slythy (Sep 1, 2015)

DigityDog70 said:


> Hey slythy,
> 
> Not to steal from the OP's posting but . I’m researching a, "new 180Gal display and the sump" and found this thread. I enjoyed reading your other post about your equipment. Some nice choices.
> 
> ...



I have my build log in my sig.

Do I have enough room: You can never have enough room.... haha, Its pretty decent, I wish my stand was slightly higher.

Which apex: Apex Classic (wasnt a classic when i bought it haha) dont buy the Jr because you are limited with options/accessories.

Drain style: I went herbie because my tank is already drilled, I wanted bean animal but i was too much of a wuss to drill a 1200 tank :laugh2: Herbie has an emergency drain so it wont overflow. 

Flow restiction: NO, Very gentle my pump is running at ~40%

Sump: I love my sump, its easy to work on and looks good!


Any more questions or want me to explain anything more?


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## DigityDog70 (Jan 20, 2017)

Xenaph said:


> It will be a bean animal overflow, so 3 in the sump and 2 return in the tank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Xenaph,
Any particular brand of tank that you have used and like? 


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