# Confused



## Shadowcat3 (May 12, 2009)

OK, as ya may already know, I'm new to the plant tank thing, always primarily kept fish..... I read one of the articles here that said if you have less than 2.5WPG and no CO2 that ferts were pretty much a waste of time and money.....Is that true, or "does it depend" which I suspect will be the answer........I Have a new 58G setup with tiger lotus, crypt crispatula-balansae, C. wendetti, hydrocotyle leucocephala and cambomba carolina. Substrate is eco-complete/flourish red, 60/40. Light is 2x39 T5HO 10 hours a day. All plants are doing very well so far (5 weeks). The T. Lotus is spreading on the surface, as is the H. Leucocephala. Using Flourish root tabs, Excel and just started Flourish, trace I guess it is?! Am I over dosing things and fostering an algae explosion cuz I don't have enough light or CO2........or if things seem to be working keep doing what I'm doing?! I don't want to go high-tec or CO2, I'm just trying to have a nice (simple) plant tank for the first time. Do I even NEED the Excel and Flourish or would the root tabs be sufficient??........or does "it depend" which I suspect will be the answer.....LOL......I'm getting the impression, from what I've read here, that although there is obviously much science involved in this, it's as much an art, as science. If that weren't true we'd all do exactly the same thing with exactly the same results....gorgeous algae free tanks!!!


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## Postal Penguin (Mar 30, 2009)

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If your fertilizing regimen is working and the plants are doing fine, don't change it. If things start to go sour then its time to start thinking about what to change. 

And I believe that T5HO lighting puts out more light per watt than other light sources so your lighting may be higher than you think.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

First off, the WPG is a pet peave of mine and I wish I could wash the world of it, but alas I cannot. Light is not just wattage, its the whole package. 150 Metal Halide is not even close to the same as 150 watts of power compact nor a T5 or T8.

However, I digress from the lecture.

Fertilization is never a bad thing. _In my opinion _there is a breaking point where they are not condusive the environment that we have in the aquarium (whether you believe the over fertilization causes algae or not, which is an ongoing battle it seems between many people in the hobby.)

Draw your own conclusions. Like postal said above, it it ain't broke....


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## Shadowcat3 (May 12, 2009)

Thanks folks!! Ya know, years ago, when I first started keeping fish...and had no idea what I was doing...I stressed about everything, the PH, the KH, the DH, the temperature, how often and how much water to change, how many inches of fish-per-gallon, what kind of filter to use and a host of other silly things. I was forever monkeying around with something or other and losing sleep that some parameter wasn't quite right....In the end I killed a lot of fish and tortured the ones who survived my well intentioned medaling. What I found, at least in my case, was that most of that stuff really wasn't so important as long as you met the basics.....Don't overtsock or overfeed. Keep your water and filters clean. Accept that not all fish will be happy in my tanks and go with fish that will.......Simple, but it's worked for many years and I get heartburn much less frequently now....I'm having a touch of deja-vu with this plant thing..LOL....I think once I get the "basics" right, I can forget the rest of this stuff..........somebody will remind me I said that in 6 months, I'm sure!!!..haha


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Shadowcat3 said:


> I read one of the articles here that said if you have less than 2.5WPG and no CO2 that ferts were pretty much a waste of time and money.



Co2 injected has to be balanced with the light so you probably don't need it. I don't think that includes excel. Whether you need ferts depends on many variables. Thus can't say definitely don't use ferts. The plants grow from nutrients they have stored for 3 months. After that if they start deterioating you'll know that they need ferts.



Shadowcat3 said:


> Light is 2x39 T5HO 10 hours a day. All plants are doing very well so far (5 weeks).


1.8wpg of T5 equals 2.34wpg of T12. The wpg rule is based on T12 bulb. How big is the tank? Look at Trallen44 tank and you will see a 55 gallon planted tank with a 32 watt T8 Zoo Med bulb. The quality of the light seems more important than the wattage. The exception is for red plants. 



Shadowcat3 said:


> Do I even NEED the Excel and Flourish or would the root tabs be sufficient??


 
They can just grow with the root tabs. An example is Trallen44' tank. Then dose as you see they need it. I does with seachem nitrogen and flourish comprehensive. Keeping it low tech just dose 
2 ml weekly. 
 *
*


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## Shadowcat3 (May 12, 2009)

Thanks Hilde, sounds like reasonable advice!! I think it's fairly easy to set up a nice tank...initialy...the proof comes months down the road. I often think that when I see these beautiful tanks in books and mags........I'll keep an eye on things and cut back a bit on the flourish/excel. Keep dosing but less so and see what happens. Thanks for your input Tank is a 58G Oceanic BTW, 36x18.


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## sean117Ply (Jun 28, 2009)

I have seen those "root tabs" in passing (didn't take much notice...)

Do they last long? or just a month or something?

Can they replace dosing the plants weekly with other nutrients?


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## NicoleRC (May 3, 2008)

sean117Ply said:


> I have seen those "root tabs" in passing (didn't take much notice...)
> 
> Do they last long? or just a month or something?
> 
> Can they replace dosing the plants weekly with other nutrients?


I think the packaging recommends replacing them every 3 months.


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## sean117Ply (Jun 28, 2009)

NicoleRC said:


> I think the packaging recommends replacing them every 3 months.


Oh cool, I suppose every three months isn't bad. Not sure how much they were but 4 packets a year would be easy.

Thanks for the reply


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

So I'm going to go ahead and third the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" sentiment. 

The basic idea here is that plants need food just as much as your fish do. Your crypts and i believe the lotus are heavy root feeders so root tabs will do them the most good. Your cabomba and hydrocotyle are going to get a lot of their nutrients directly from the water column, so dosing flourish excel and comprehensive/trace will be the most beneficial for them.

My short answer for you is keep doing what you're doing, if the plants and fish look healthy, no worries! 

Also, as someone who keep only low light, low tech tanks, I've found that adding an air stone or a bubble wall to the tank actually really helps the plants grow, when you are not injecting CO2, lots of surface movement will keep the CO2 levels in the tank at equilibrium with the those in the air, so it's a way to give just a little bit extra CO2 to your plants 

I overstock my tanks a little and tend to rely on fish poop as fertilizer, but when I do remember to dose ferts, I definitely see an increase in growth and over all improvement in the plants.


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## Shadowcat3 (May 12, 2009)

Thanks Karackle. Sounds right to me Right now the tank is turning into a jungle with the Lotus and Pennywort going gang-busters. Crypts are slower, as expected, but have put out many new leaves. Cabomba is doing fine also. .....Kinda scarey, I keep waiting for the whole thing to go to crap since it's my first real effort at a planted tank!! LOL. Had an airstone in for a while, but took it out. Your suggestion makes me think putting it back in may be useful and it didn't seem to hurt the plant growth earlier, so why not?! The 2x39 T5HO actually doesn't look bright enough now since the surface is 2/3 covered in floaters, but as many have said, if it ain't broke, don't "fix" it!!


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

Shadowcat3 said:


> OK, as ya may already know, I'm new to the plant tank thing, always primarily kept fish..... I read one of the articles here that said if you have less than 2.5WPG and no CO2 that ferts were pretty much a waste of time and money.....



Anything above 2.0wpg is in the mid-range of lighting (that also depends on your tank size/height) and even if it is a low light tank fertz is never a bad idea but at 40+ gallons I'd consider moving to a cheaper line over the Excel products (dry fertz, pfertz.com, etc) just to keep the costs down.

P.S. Once gmccreedy comes up with a new easily learned standard let me know and I'll stop explaining wpg to new members  

- Brad


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## nytowl83 (Jan 15, 2006)

bradac56 said:


> Anything above 2.0wpg is in the mid-range of lighting (that also depends on your tank size/height) and even if it is a low light tank fertz is never a bad idea but at 40+ gallons I'd consider moving to a cheaper line over the Excel products (dry fertz, pfertz.com, etc) just to keep the costs down.
> 
> P.S. Once gmccreedy comes up with a new easily learned standard let me know and I'll stop explaining wpg to new members
> 
> - Brad


I agree with Gmccreedy  personally i do the watts per surface area , watts per square meter rule to be more precise. 200watts per square meters for low light, 400 watts per square meter for medium. 800 watts per square meter for high light

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Tech/Lighting/

did good for me and makes more sense. It does however ignore the idea of height (this assumes that we use good quality bulbs)

cheers

Ben


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

My point is that WPG was never meant to be an exact science it's a very broad spectrum to get most hobbiest close enough to the correct amount of light for there particular setup and that's all 80% of people really need.

For the other 20% they can figure it out on there own, even Olson calls his math an estimate at best so wpg to a new PT hobbiest is good enough until they get the other important parts down like ferts, water param's, etc and then they can come back and learn more about lighting.

- Brad


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## nytowl83 (Jan 15, 2006)

bradac56 said:


> My point is that WPG was never meant to be an exact science it's a very broad spectrum to get most hobbiest close enough to the correct amount of light for there particular setup and that's all 80% of people really need.
> 
> For the other 20% they can figure it out on there own, even Olson calls his math an estimate at best so wpg to a new PT hobbiest is good enough until they get the other important parts down like ferts, water param's, etc and then they can come back and learn more about lighting.
> 
> - Brad


Ah yes, I agree. WPG rule is great for a starting hobbyist. Its how i started too. 

I would also like to press that watts to surface area rule is quite simple too (but not as WPG) just need to do a little english/metric system conversion, tape measure and elementary geometry. It would be interesting to see how/what are people's experience on this. So far i only know myself to do this. 

Cheers

Ben


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## Shadowcat3 (May 12, 2009)

And yet I am still confused!! LOL....By your estimates gentlemen, and/or ladies, I am well below even what you indicate should be low light levels on my 36x18, 58G tank. I'm running 2x39T5HO, 10 hours a day, which seems, on paper at least, somewhat short of your criteria........but since my plants appear to be thriving well beyond my novice expectations, perhaps I will simply let sleeping dogs lie!!........It would appear that there are many variables to this hobby, not all clearly definable and as many working formulae as there are hobbiests........sigh


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## Shadowcat3 (May 12, 2009)

OK, re-checked my math..........By the watts/ sq.meter formula I am just about right for the low end, 200W/square meter ...........my mistake..........which better explains why my tank seems to be "working" so far..I think I come up with about 83.5 watts for the theoretical low level on a 36x18 tank, vs my 78w, so close enough for government work, as we say.


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