# Plants are stunted and pale new growth



## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Qwedfg said:


> My stem plants have been coming in stunted and the new growth has been pale. I added a new light (xr15fw) and it seemed to exacerbate this problem. Right now I have it set at 25 percent intensity.
> 
> After reading through some threads by Tom Barr, it seemed like this problem was most likely associated with CO2 issues since I do a modified EI dosing scheme. My CO2 is currently pretty high in my opinion, my plants pearl and my drop checker turns bright yellow by mid day. So far my fish have been fine but I am nervous to continue increasing the BPS. Is the drop checker a useful tool or should I just increase the CO2 till my fish cant take it anymore?


Have you done the kh/pH test to see where your at with ppm of co2?


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## old fogey1946 (Mar 24, 2017)

*Ph fluctuations*

I have come across problems with plants reacting badly to fluctuating ph values due to the co2 content of the water changing over short periods of time . Some amazon basin plants like constant conditions.
It may be worth stopping the co2 for a couple of weeks to see if your plants respond and begin to grow normally. If this is the case try adding a lower rate of co2 for a while and see if things normalise.
Nature sometimes takes time to get used to us making life awkward.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

I find a drop checker useful since you can see at a glance, the one downside is it lags behind so the indication you are seeing is about an hour behind. Not a big deal for me since I use the info going forward to dial in Co2 and leave it. As stated the KH/PH test gives instant results but you need to take the time to do the test (even if its minimal) which can be a tad inconvenient, also recommended a good PH probe to do this and I would say its more accurate than a drop checker.

Added: are you using 4dkh fluid in the drop checker ( I hate to beat a dead horse but it doesn't hurt to ask)

Dan


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

Qwedfg said:


> I do a modified EI dosing scheme. My CO2 is currently pretty high in my opinion... turns bright yellow by mid day.


How modified are we talking about ? What plant species ? All of the plants show the same behaviour ?

I would first say that it helps to push the drop checker down like 5 cm above the substrate and in the opposite corner where the CO2 is injected. This way you get a better idea of how well the CO2 is distributed and no random CO2 get to come into the dropchecker.

Then it can be that the solution in the drop checker was contaminated. When dealing with such small volumes it is easy to influence it with minimal amount of extra hard/soft water. Like Dan said the solution should be a 4 dKH to give a light green at 30ppm. If for example aquarium water gets in the drop checker, you clean it with tap water and leave some water inside the drop checker, use a pipette that was used to handle water or Excel or something else ... the solution inside will be off.

When/if you clean the inside of the drop checker use a paper towel to dry it well , also if available use distilled water to prevent any random mineral deposits. Have a dedicated pipette for the drop checker and try to avoid getting other water in. Drop checkers are good and saved me several times by telling me the CO2 tank was empty  or forgot to plug the electrovalve back in etc. Nevertheless, they are a measuring tool and need to be used knowing their features and limitations.

Lastly, having a pH pen and a KH test is an inexpensive way to easily make sure everything is going well. Once you known the KH of your water you can pretty much just use the pH pen from time to time to get an instant reading. 

Another thing is to try to also get the light green color about 1h after the light turn on. Best to do this when you are at home to monitor things.
@old fogey1946 I would not worry about pH swings in the 6-8 range coming from CO2, they are present in every natural puddle with algae or plants


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## Qwedfg (Mar 7, 2012)

Thank you for the responses.

1) Not all my plants are reacting in the same way but the more finicky ones are having problems
- R. WALLICHII - I just picked this plant up a little more than a week ago and it was a rough from shipping. Since then it has been growing at a moderate speed but the new shoots are stunted.
- R. Indica - Also just received this plant. It has put down roots but hasn't grown much. There are some diatoms growing on the older leaves.
- R. Nanjenshan - Green, fine leaved Rotala that I've had for a while. Extremely light colored new growth that is stunted. Very little actual growth in height.
- R. Rotundafolia - the whole plant is pretty yellow. I have been aggressively trimming this as it always grows right along the substrate so I'm getting it to grow vertically with cutting all runners. Growth has been ok but slower than in the past
- S. repens - This used to grow very fast in my tank now it grows at a moderate speed and the leaves are getting GDA on them. They are also very pale at the vein of the leaf and have yellow splotches in the leaf area. Also looks like the edges have curled up making a lip.
- Dwarf baby tears - have a good carpet going but they have some diatoms growing on them.
- Blood Vomit - I have two of these that I also received last week or so and they are not doing well but seem to have stopped losing leaves and might be recovering but no growth.

2) My drop checker is pretty high in the tank. I will drop it down lower today to see if it makes a difference. I use 4dkh solution I bought from someone here on the forums a couple years ago and the API low range pH solution. I typically rinse the inside of the bulb with the 4dkh solution after using tap but I will switch to RODI for cleaning.

3) The KH of my tank is 3 since I started using Seachem Equilibrium. I have well water that has a kh of 1 out of the tap. I started using equilibrium since I originally thought I might have a calcium deficiency but Tom Barr says he has never seen a calcium deficiency so I guess its not that. The TDS of my tank with equilibrium and seiryu stone is about 270 by the end of the week. The water goes in the tank at a TDS of ~160 after equilibrium. 

4) I think my CO2 distribution is pretty good. I have a 10 gallon cadlights zen series tank with an Eheim 2213 filter. The co2 diffuser is on the opposite side of the filter so the filter blows all the co2 bubbles throughout the tank. 

5) I use NilocG's Thrive fertilizer although I have been adding 4 squirts of Brighty K and 2 ml of Aquavitro iron every week to see if they were deficient. One thing I have noticed is that my NO3 is creeping higher and higher. Last time I checked it was looking like it may have passed 20 but not gotten to the next color on the API nitrate test. I have salifert NO3 and calcium tests but I'm not sure they work on freshwater.

Thank you for your help!

Ok I just tested the pH and kH in my tank and the results don't make much sense. According to my API tests I have a pH of ~6.4 and my kH tested to 4. Using this chart Fertiliser and CO2 for your aquarium. - Tropica Aquarium Plants I am above the red (52 mg/L). My fish are not stressed and I have a lone CRS who is still walking around fine. I don think I could add more CO2 at this point but maybe I'm wrong.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Qwedfg said:


> Ok I just tested the pH and kH in my tank and the results don't make much sense. According to my API tests I have a pH of ~6.4 and my kH tested to 4. Using this chart Fertiliser and CO2 for your aquarium. - Tropica Aquarium Plants I am above the red (52 mg/L). My fish are not stressed and I have a lone CRS who is still walking around fine. I don think I could add more CO2 at this point but maybe I'm wrong.


That's what I was afraid of when you mentioned your drop checker turned yellow mid-day.

I don't think it's a deficiency of any kind. I think toxicity. Iron over-dosing can cause a plant to grow pale for example (oddly also a sign or deficiency), so you would dose more iron trying to help the situation only make it worse. 

From what I have read so far about thrive, it's almost E.I. level ferts in a squirt bottle. So this should probably go with a weekly 50% water change to make sure you don't have a build up of unused nutrients.

Check this out

Trouble with Rotala - Fert Imbalance, CO2, Deficiency
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=503209

Also, are you using thrive or thrive plus? Plus is formulated for high tech - 7 pH or less


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

The pH/KH chart isn't exactly accurate because there are other things that affect the pH in your tank besides CO2 injection. The drop checker will give you a better ball park figure. You can also see if you get a 1 point pH drop, before CO2 is on and after. Most people aim for a 1 point drop. I wouldn't mess with the CO2 just yet. Can you get a photo of your plants?
On nutrients though, 20ppm of Nitrate isn't that much TBH. Do you do 50% weekly water changes as per EI BTW? Another thing to think about all-in-one fertilisers usually lack iron or phosphate, as the phosphate causes precipitation of the iron, so maybe see which one isn't in Thrive. You could be deficient in that missing nutrient.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

If we are talking about Thrive, not Thrive +, each dose will add 7ppm NO3, 1.3ppm PO4, 5ppm K, and 0.25ppm Fe

Thrive + will each dose will add 7.5ppm NO3, 5ppm K, 1.3ppm PO4 and 0.4ppm Fe[censored]

The instructions say to dose 3x a week. Keep in mind AquaVitro Iron is/was also being used. Thrive looks like a pretty good all-in-one. I'm thinking about using it myself


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Mmm yeah I would start to rule out deficiencies too then. I would cut back on the micros (Iron) dosing, as well as the extra Brighty K, the Thrive should be all you need.


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## Qwedfg (Mar 7, 2012)

Thank you for the replies again this has been very helpful.

I have been dosing regular Thrive 3 times a week and doing a 50 percent water change on Sunday. Last week I started adding more Iron but this was after the problem had already arisen. 

I think that I used to have a CO2 deficiency as I was below 1 BPS but over the past two weeks I have raised it to slightly over 1 bps. How long does it take plants to recover from CO2 deficiency? 

Since my nitrate was getting over 20 ppm I didn't dose Thrive on Friday. Starting this week I will just dose Thrive on Tuesday and Wednesday and see if that makes any difference so I can rule out toxicity. 

Do you think at this point I should just use RODI water + Equilibrium and begin using Dry ferts for dosing? I am getting frustrated with the limited control I have over individual nutrients. 

Here are some images of my plants, sorry for the neon tetra photobomb.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

A lot of people prefer dry ferts for just that reason : control of what your putting in your tank. Thrive does look like a good product to me though. As far as RODI, that would also give you the same benefit : control. Equilibrium only adds the GH back into the water. You will need Alkaline buffer (kh) to prevent pH swings if you are going to use RODI solely.









There may be a micro nutrient in excess in your well water. You may be fine with Thrive


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## Qwedfg (Mar 7, 2012)

I just tested my nitrate today after not dosing since Wednesday. It was still at about 20. Its obvious my plants are not growing very much since nitrate usage is so low. I am doing a water change right now then I'm going to test my nitrate again tonight to see where I'm at (My well has ~5 nitrates). I might just not dose at all this week and see where I'm at. If anyone has advice it would be greatly appreciated.

Should I decrease the amount of light? I have my radion on planted tank mode at 25 percent intensity.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Your well might have a lot of iron depending on where you live.

When you said you added a new light, did you mean in addition to your current light fixture? How big is your tank? Does your light max out at 60w? If so, using it alone at 25% (15w) could be an issue. Your algae spots in leaves could be from the change in spectrum and adjustment by the plants and/or the plants not getting enough light to consume the nutrients your putting into the water. This is a shot in the dark here (no pun intended) but it may just be your lighting

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## Qwedfg (Mar 7, 2012)

Thanks for the reply. I have an 11 gallon cadlights tank and the radion is the only light. I have it set at 25 percent right now so at peak intensity it is running at 11 watts. Is this too low?

I believe my well does have a lot of iron since when the pump had to be replaced we had to run the water for a while to get it to come out clear.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

Qwedfg said:


> Thanks for the reply. I have an 11 gallon cadlights tank and the radion is the only light. I have it set at 25 percent right now so at peak intensity it is running at 11 watts. Is this too low?
> 
> I believe my well does have a lot of iron since the last time we had to change the pump we had to run it for a while to get it to run clear.


I use T5HO and T8 fixtures on my larger tanks so my experience with LED is limited but I am using a 40w LED fixture in my 29 gallon. My LED light is 15 inches from the substrate and it's 40w 

With lighting, it is about PAR. The PAR is measured by a meter placed at the distance between your light and the substrate, and depending on what the PAR is will determine what it's considered (low, mod, high). Your shooting for mod or high with pressurized CO2 and ferts. Since most of us don't have a PAR meter, we have to use comparisons or information online to make an educated guess on our lighting needs. How far is the light from the substrate on your tank? The width/depth or your tank and the beam angle of the LEDs, the spread/coverage of the area your lighting has to be considered.


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## Qwedfg (Mar 7, 2012)

The tank is 11.5 inches deep. I use an RMS mount for the light so I believe its 9 inches above the water line. I am fairly certain this model Radion has the 120 degree optics on it. I increased my lighting to 20 watt maximum output during peak lighting hours to see if that will help.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

I have a feeling it will. If you see even a slight improvement you will at least know where the problem was

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