# Hikari 'Shrimp Cuisine' contains copper, why?



## Clare12345

Can anyone tell me why Hikari has a new food for shrimps called Shrimp Cuisine and says:
"Contains copper which aids blood regeneration"
on their website. 
Can anyone tell me if copper is good, or bad for shrimps?????

http://www.hikariusa.com/products/tropical/tropical_shrimp_cuisine.php


Would copper hurt any shrimp reproduction?


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## CKJ

Yes copper is bad for shrimp!

I don't know about that food but I had made a mistake when I was in a hurry and bought something called shrimp pellets. It had copper in it so I didn't use it and realized it was made of shrimp not for shrimp!

Hope somebody else can help you about the food, I just know copper si not good for shrimp!

Good luck!

Cindy


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## Clare12345

Well this specifically says on their website: 
*Shrimp Cuisine™ 
A scientifically deveoloped diet for all types of freshwater ornamental shrimps especially caridina or neocaridina species.*


So THEY think an amount of copper is GOOD for shrimp. Can anyone tell me why they think copper is bad for shrimps?


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## southerndesert

Copper is deadly for inverts even in small amounts, but the copper contained in fish food is claimed not to be problematic.... How many ppm is toxic to shrimp, I do not know, but avoid its use in any form. Coppers ability to kill inverts is also why it is used to kill Ick and some other problems in fish aquariums....

There is much info on this subject with a search here, online, or at other forums.


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## omboocat

Bill, what foods do you recommend on feeding shrimp?
Wilma


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## Clare12345

I really wanted to feed them foods with astaxanthin in it, which I have read really brightens the colors of fish and shrimp. Thats why I wanted to use that hikari brand. But I just realized the hikari micro wafers have astaxanthin also and not any copper, plus I already have some, so I will use those and algae wafers that my LFS recommended.


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## CKJ

Mine seem to really like the hikari algea wafers. Some of mine are very bright red anyway so my main concern was that they are happy and healthy first. But I have a 20 gal that has been running for over a year so there's plenty of bio film and algea so they probably don't even need the algea wafers but I do stick some in my tank every few days as some of my fish like them too!

I'm hoping their color mainly comes from genetics and maybe some day after i've done good with several generations i'll try breeding for color.

Good luck too you!!


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## southerndesert

omboocat said:


> Bill, what foods do you recommend on feeding shrimp?
> Wilma


Hi Wilma,

I use Shirakura, Green Beans (cooked), Ken's veggie sticks and earthworm sticks, Spirolina, Tetra brand hermit Crab cakes, and various other things. I try to keep it varied, but if I had to choose one food it would be the Shirakura and I feed it the most.


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## zoologist101

I use Ocean Nutrition Shrimp Wafers – no copper. I also have a large tub of Red Astax food, which you can buy on eBay quite cheaply.


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## omboocat

Yes, I too feed the Shirakura, they do go for it and a Hikari algae wafer, micro wafer, and some of the meaty foods. All my shrimp so far have great coloring and appear to be very healthy. 
wilma


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## mistergreen

crustacean blood is cooper based people.. they need cooper.


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## Veneer

Clare12345 said:


> "Contains copper which aids blood regeneration" on their website.


To be a stickler for terminology, shrimp don't have blood or a closed circulatory system as in vertebrates; instead, a fluid called hemolymph sloshes about within the body cavity. The oxygen-carrying molecule in their hemolymph is hemocyanin, a respiratory protein which binds oxygen using *two copper atoms*. 

According to this paper, decapod crustaceans (like shrimp) need around 31.3 to 38.1 μg (1 μg = 1/1,000,000 of a gram) of copper per gram of body mass "to meet the requirements of both copper-associated enzymes and the copper bearing respiratory pigment haemocyanin". 

The line between need and toxicity *can* be fine (source), but copper is an *essential trace metal* required for copper-dependent enzymes in energy production, pigmentation, and so on.

We should distinguish this dietary requirement from the effects of the cupric ion (Cu+2). This is copper's major toxic species -- doing much damage to crustacean gills by inhibiting osmoregulation -- and results when *copper sulfate medications* are added to water (source).


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## imeridian

Wow, real information instead of just alarmist propaganda, very nice! roud:


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## fishsandwitch

Veneer said:


> To be a stickler for terminology, shrimp don't have blood or a closed circulatory system as in vertebrates; instead, a fluid called hemolymph sloshes about within the body cavity. The oxygen-carrying molecule in their hemolymph is hemocyanin, a respiratory protein which binds oxygen using *two copper atoms*.
> 
> According to this paper, decapod crustaceans (like shrimp) need around 31.3 to 38.1 μg (1 μg = 1/1,000,000 of a gram) of copper per gram of body mass "to meet the requirements of both copper-associated enzymes and the copper bearing respiratory pigment haemocyanin".
> 
> The line between need and toxicity *can* be fine (source), but copper is an *essential trace metal* required for copper-dependent enzymes in energy production, pigmentation, and so on.
> 
> We should distinguish this dietary requirement from the effects of the cupric ion (Cu+2). This is copper's major toxic species -- doing much damage to crustacean gills by inhibiting osmoregulation -- and results when *copper sulfate medications* are added to water (source).


+1! This is totally correct! 

I wish I could explain it as well as you


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## Clare12345

Yes. Seems to be true. I actually emailed Hikari yesterday and this their reply to me today: 

"Here is a more in depth response from our research staff.

Yes, too much copper in the diet will kill the shrimp. But, shrimp need a very small amount of copper in their food for good health.

Not like us(humans), animals or fish, most shrimp use copper to deliver oxygen
inside of their body. For example, we (humans) have red blood cells which
contain hemoglobin. Hemoglobin contains iron metal (Fe), and this iron
actually absorbs oxygen at large and delivers this oxygen to every part of
body and organs.

However, in the case of Shrimp, they have Hemocyanin in their blood cells, with
copper metal. They use copper to deliver oxygen to their vital organs and circulatory system.
That is why their blood is clear or green color rather than red color like ours (humans).

We hope this additional information helps!"
End of email.


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## tominator

Ooh, they have the same "blood" as octopi, cool.


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## oblongshrimp

I looked in the ingredients that they have posted (see below) and I don't see any copper added so its probably just trace amounts in the other ingredients and it is probably fine. 

From the Hikari website
"Fish meal, dehydrated alfalfa meal, cuttlefish meal, heat processed soybeans, flaked corn, dried seaweed meal, sodium alginate, brewers dried yeast, spirulina, wheat germ meal, cuttlefish oil, starch, lecithin, clam extract, DL-methionine, dried A. niger fermentation extract, astaxanthin, choline chloride, monosodium glutamate, vitamins and minerals including stabilized vitamin C."


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## Dwarfpufferfish

I am sure it is included in the "vitamins and minerals"


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## jaidexl

This thread should be stickied in the shrimp forum. Good info to address one of the most common thread subjects.


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## dxiong5

Very interesting. Please keep us shrimpies updated if anyone tries this food.


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## bibbels

jaidexl said:


> This thread should be stickied in the shrimp forum. Good info to address one of the most common thread subjects.


I agree :thumbsup:


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## dpuzdreac

I've just tried this food on my Red Cherry Shrimp

The package comes with a very small plastic spoon, I've fed them one "portion" of what looks like very small green pellets.

The shrimps reacted immediately when the food was placed in the water

In 10 minutes, 4 out of my 12 shrimps were eating it, they came from all corners of the tank.

It seems that they really like it, but I'll feed them just once / week, they have plenty of green algae to eat, I'll use this food as supplement only.


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## bklyndrvr

My shrimp love Shrimp Cuisince. They go crazy for it. I have been feeding them it from over 3 weeks now (about once a week) and have not seen any issues so far.


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## metageologist

i also have been using the shrimp cuisine for about 3 weeks and they seem to swarm the stuff and since i have starter feeding them this they seam to be redder and growing faster. lots of molts in the tank were as before i only saw one a week at best.


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## keitarosan

this looks ok to me. no shrimp loss whatsoever (so far). the only thing i don't like about it is it floats and takes a while to sink. unlike the shirakura brand.


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## bklyndrvr

just tap them a little bit with your finger. Once you break the water tension, they drop down. funny thing is that my shrimp hang upside down under the floating plants, and I saw one grab it while still floating, and when it started to sink, the shrimp didn't let go and sank with it al the way to the bottom and still never let go.


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## macclellan

I've used that, their crab cuisine, and tetras food for years without issue. "Shrimp being sensitive" is a mostly hype. As stated more eloquently above it isn't "copper" per se that is deadly to shrimp and there are no issues with the kinds/amounts in shrimp food.


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## A Hill

Veneer said:


> To be a stickler for terminology, shrimp don't have blood or a closed circulatory system as in vertebrates; instead, a fluid called hemolymph sloshes about within the body cavity. The oxygen-carrying molecule in their hemolymph is hemocyanin, a respiratory protein which binds oxygen using *two copper atoms*.
> 
> According to this paper, decapod crustaceans (like shrimp) need around 31.3 to 38.1 μg (1 μg = 1/1,000,000 of a gram) of copper per gram of body mass "to meet the requirements of both copper-associated enzymes and the copper bearing respiratory pigment haemocyanin".
> 
> The line between need and toxicity *can* be fine (source), but copper is an *essential trace metal* required for copper-dependent enzymes in energy production, pigmentation, and so on.
> 
> We should distinguish this dietary requirement from the effects of the cupric ion (Cu+2). This is copper's major toxic species -- doing much damage to crustacean gills by inhibiting osmoregulation -- and results when *copper sulfate medications* are added to water (source).


Yet at those concentrations isn't all they need available in their water? 

As a side note is that your website you've got linked?

-Andrew


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## sandiegoryu

Lol. Two years later and everyone's still wondering if copper in shrimp food is bad.


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## ybrik

Hello,

Sorry for the late response, but I am the southern california rep for Hikari USA. 

Copper is used in the diet for shrimp because we found that a trace amount of copper helps the blood regeneration within the shrimp. Since we are using trace amounts of copper it is safe for the shrimp. Please do not pour a whole bag of shrimp cuisine into a small tank because that is just asking for trouble.

Kirby


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## Church

Thank you, Hikari man.


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## adrianng1996

but is it ok if i use the food daily?
and in how many amount do i feed them? right now i have 10 CRS/CBS


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## BogdanC

This is my first post here, so hello everybody! 

I am a Biochemistry graduate and interested about shrimps  

Living organisms are able to take a wide range of nutrients (including minerals) from their food/liquid intake, if that food can be digested = broke down in smaller, simpler compounds. That's why in order to provide shrimps with a very small amount of copper there is no need for copper to be added as an inorganic substance (let's say CuSO4, as in plant fertilizers). *Copper can be included in some organic matter.* See below the list of ingredients:



oblongshrimp said:


> I looked in the ingredients that they have posted (see below) and I don't see any copper added so its probably just trace amounts in the other ingredients and it is probably fine.
> 
> From the Hikari website
> "Fish meal, dehydrated alfalfa meal, cuttlefish meal, heat processed soybeans, flaked corn, dried seaweed meal, sodium alginate, brewers dried yeast, spirulina, wheat germ meal, cuttlefish oil, starch, lecithin, clam extract, DL-methionine, dried A. niger fermentation extract, astaxanthin, choline chloride, monosodium glutamate, vitamins and minerals including stabilized vitamin C."


As you can see it has cuttlefish meal (which includes tiny amounts of Cu as discussed above). Another source of *organic copper* is dried seaweed meal (some data found on the web: concentration of copper found in seaweed was between 0.01-3 mg/100 g).

The great advantage is that this tiny amount of organic copper is usually available only through digestion, and cannot contaminate water or rise to toxic levels through the regular feeding amounts that enter the aquariums. So I think daily feeding shrimps with this special formulated food it's perfectly OK. 

IMHO, of much greater concern is the copper added through plant fertilizers...But that's another discussion.


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## Church

^ That was one informative first post! Welcome to the Planted Tank.


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## non_compliance

adrianng1996 said:


> but is it ok if i use the food daily?
> and in how many amount do i feed them? right now i have 10 CRS/CBS



I have 5 shrimp, and I drop in 5 or so pellets every 1-2 days. By the sounds of it, I may be over feeding a touch, but not much...


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## lilsoccakid74

non_compliance said:


> I have 5 shrimp, and I drop in 5 or so pellets every 1-2 days. By the sounds of it, I may be over feeding a touch, but not much...


i would feed less than that if water quality is a concern. I have about a dozen CRS and i feed them 1 pellet every 2 days. Feeding every other day seems to keep the shrimps appetite up.


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## non_compliance

So you feed each shrimp one pellet, or all 12 get only 1 to fight over?  

I am not worried about water quality as much as just over-feeding... I do weekly 40-50% water changes... shouldn't get too nasty in there.


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## adrianng1996

i agree with non compliance.....you shoudnt let your shrimp fight over just one pellet...and the pellet is sized for 1 shrimp to consume by itself....like my CRS and CBS now...there are 12 of them...and i feed them about 10 pellet daily and they seem to be happy...and now im having a berried shrimp...


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## lilsoccakid74

adrianng1996 said:


> i agree with non compliance.....you shoudnt let your shrimp fight over just one pellet...and the pellet is sized for 1 shrimp to consume by itself....like my CRS and CBS now...there are 12 of them...and i feed them about 10 pellet daily and they seem to be happy...and now im having a berried shrimp...


your probably right, although i wouldnt say much fighting is going on, probably because im just using regular algae wafers. once my shirakura arrives ill probably put 2-3 small portions in the tank a few times a week. I might be a little paranoid about my water quality, but with only 5 gallons of water I try to keep the water as clean as possible.


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## BogdanC

I also have a small tank (20 liters, ~5.28 gallons) with over 20 CRS (mostly small and middle-sized) and 2 _Atyopsis moluccensis_ (bamboo shrimp). It's very easy to overfeed them (->bad water-> shrimp death), that's why I've decided to give them a single meal daily, or depending of water quality to feed them once every 2 days. 

Apart from Hikari Shrimp pellets I feed them with small bits of Spirulina and/or Chlorella tablets (pure 100% dried algae) for human use. Chlorella is wall-cracked so it's better usable by their digestive system (and ours, btw). This could be a viable solution for algae-free tanks. I've noticed that also my 2 bamboo shrimps come to the feeding place to enjoy the Hikari pellets, although they grab them with difficulty with their "fans". A fine dispersed wave of Spirulina or Chlorella is also enjoyed by these big shrimps.


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## macclellan

mistergreen said:


> crustacean blood is cooper based people.. they need cooper.


 Yeah, cooper based! See how they are small and red? :hihi:










Or is it the more evil cooper ion?


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## MsNemoShrimp

Interesting topic. Now I know


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## Absolut Talent

Holy necro Batman!!


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## Hmoobthor

I use it and love it.. they need it .


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## Soothing Shrimp

LOL Another revived 2 yr old thread.


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## oblongshrimp

I have seen this topic come up about once a month or so anyways though so its probably a good refresher


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## Jaybee Goh

so the conclusion is? hikari okay?


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## Jaybee Goh

so the conclusion is? hikari good for the caridina?:surprise:


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## Yukiharu

Hikari and other brands are fine. It's organic, bonded copper present in their food rather than free ionic copper, and in trace quantities.


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