# A new Black Substrate by Aquariumplants.com



## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

A while back I ordered an Aquarium Plants.com CO2 regulator (The Best) -very similar to Rex's excellent Cornelius/Clippard regulator. I highly recommend either of these regulators as I own both and they won't leak... but anyways, Mark, the owner of AP.com gave me a call to ask if I wanted a permaseal on the regulator. Talk about customer service! Anyhow, we got to talking about Aqua Soil etc. 

He mentioned he was coming out with a new substrate which would be black in color, like the Eco and the yet to be released Black Flourite by Seachem. Well, I just noticed tonight that they have it for sale. A 5 gallon bucket for $30.00. 
WOW :icon_excl I hope its good stuff. Here is the link...

AquariumPlants.com's own: Freshwater Plant Substrate


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## Derekj03 (Nov 5, 2006)

Did you see how much a 5gallon bucket covers? 4sq feet 3inches deep! One bucket is enough for a 55gallon tank! If it is as good as the others then that is an amazing price.


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

I would love to see a photo of the grain size of the product. I'd also like to know the weight on the 5 gallon bucket. Is it heavy weighted like Flourite; or is it light weight like Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil, or Soilmaster select?
"Inquiring minds want to know!"


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Another thumbs up on the regulator. I picked one up about a month ago and it couldn't have been easier to hook up or use.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

The site doesn't list an analysis of the contents, so it's really hard to compare it to any other product, nor does it say what it is or how it's processed, which are important things to consider.


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## turbowagon (Dec 30, 2005)

Looks almost too good to be true. Can't wait to hear some reviews.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Yea, depending on grain size, this could be a nice alternative. 
I also can't wait to see the reviews, and content analysis. 

It's got some tough competition now though.


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

I can't wait to see some reviews. May be the perfect choice for my 40g. It's about the same cost as gravel from the LFS....


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Looks kind of like the coal slag we sell at work for sandblasting, I know people have used it for substrates with good results before, you might look into that as well.


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## Ryzilla (Oct 29, 2005)

unless they post whats in it then I wont trust it for that cheap of a price. It wouldnt hurt to list its nutrient levels. They have just entered into a big market and without any writing to back that product up then forget about it. Just my 2 nickles.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

> * Used with our exclusive "Aquariumplants.com's own Substrate Fertilizer Tablets" we GUARANTEE success


this would lead me to conclude that substate is inert.
why else would they advocate using it with fert tabs?

I emailed them 3 different ways asking for more details
about composition and grain size, and still no reply.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Ryzilla said:


> unless they post whats in it then I wont trust it for that cheap of a price. It wouldnt hurt to list its nutrient levels. They have just entered into a big market and without any writing to back that product up then forget about it. Just my 2 nickles.


Lets give them some time. It just came out. On the website they stated "more info coming soon". I have a feeling this is going to be a decent product and the price will eventually go up a bit. I like the 5 gallon delivery idea. Got to give them a good mark on that already.

Regards Spypets query, I imagine the root tabs are for plants which require nutrient uptake through their roots eg Anubias, Crypts etc. Also, these days, most companies cannot respond to each email within a few hours. Between Spam and normal operations, it just doesn't happen that fast, unless there is a monetary exchange involved. I try to be timely at my company, but it doesn't always happen. FWIW, I didn't hear back from Seachem for about 5 days on a query.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

The math doesn't add up.

5 gallons = 1155 cubic inches.

48x12x3 = 1728 cubic inches.

So unless the stuff expands when it gets wet the math is all wrong.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Well, according to their covereage estimate, the five gallon bucket comes out to about 28.3 liters, or a little over three 9-liter bags of ADA AquaSoil. At $57 shipped to me in California, it's almost $30 cheaper than the AS.

So I've taken the plunge and ordered me a bucket. Hopefully it'll be all that they say it is and I won't have just purchased the most expensive 5-gallon bucket in non-US Gov't procurement history. 

Looks like it'll be time to redo my 10g work tank in a few weeks. Just in time for the holidays.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Rex Grigg said:


> The math doesn't add up.
> 
> 5 gallons = 1155 cubic inches.
> 
> ...


I think a "5 gallon bucket" actually holds more than 5 gallons. When I have purchased paint in that size buckets the bucket wasn't full. However, I don't see that accounting for the 50% "error" you noted. Also, I'm not sure all of the buckets labeled as "5 gallon buckets" are even supposed to be 5 gallon size - that may be a generic term. Maybe this is the first time in the history of mankind when a product is delivered 50% over in volume!


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

My "5 gallon" buckets in the garage are close to 14"h x 12" diameter, which would be 1584 cubic inches, so getting closer, but still not a bullseye.

I'll let you know what I get when I get it.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Not the best pictures, but grain size comparisons are up, if they weren't before. Oh, it's also $35 per bucket now. =)


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

> I was 1 of the 1st customers to receive this new substrate. I took their advice and used it with their exclusive substrate tablets. I have 2 tanks with eco and 1 with Flourite. After 2 weeks, I could actually see faster growth. Now after 5 weeks, the colors of all my plants is much more vibrant and the plants are noticeably healthier than my 3 other tanks. I have a 4 way co2 manifold so all the tanks are getting the same amount of co2 and identical lighting systems, so my observations are spot on.


what a self serving review... sure any tank with fresh substrate AND fert tabs will do better than old eco and old flourite... give me a break.


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## yoink (Apr 21, 2005)

Bill, have you ever used soilmaster select? I am interested in the similarities between the two. They look similar anyway.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

you guys should use a stack of 5 US Nickels laid on it's side for measuring purposes.
they are smooth edged and exactly 2mm thick, so they are best for photo references.
5 US Nickels thick = 1cm


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

yoink said:


> Bill, have you ever used soilmaster select? I am interested in the similarities between the two. They look similar anyway.


I haven't used Soilmaster Select, but I do used Turface Pro League, which seems to be pretty similar to it.

I'll keep you all posted.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

yoink said:


> Bill, have you ever used soilmaster select? I am interested in the similarities between the two. They look similar anyway.



Wow, they do look almost "identical".


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

*buys 50 bags of Soilmaster Select, and a bunch of red 5-gallon buckets*

:icon_twis


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## yoink (Apr 21, 2005)

spypet said:


> you guys should use a stack of 5 US Nickels laid on it's side for measuring purposes.
> they are smooth edged and exactly 2mm thick, so they are best for photo references.
> 5 US Nickels thick = 1cm


Ok, here it is with 5 nickels, 6 quarters, a 5 pence piece, and a happy face of dimes. I tried unsuccesfully to locate a chucky cheese token, I'm sorry.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

yoink said:


> Ok, here it is with 5 nickels, 6 quarters, a 5 pence piece, and a happy face of dimes. I tried unsuccesfully to locate a chucky cheese token, I'm sorry.


Good one Yoink!:hihi:


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

yoink said:


> Ok, here it is with 5 nickels, 6 quarters, a 5 pence piece, and a happy face of dimes. I tried unsuccesfully to locate a chucky cheese token, I'm sorry.


lol. I thought you were going crazy with the 6 quarters. The 5 pence piece and happy face got me laughing though. :hihi:


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## Ryzilla (Oct 29, 2005)

classic, yoink.


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Is this new stuff fracted clay like the others? Joey, I have some of those chucky cheese tokens next you need to illustrate a size.......DC


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Betowess said:


> Lets give them some time. It just came out


According to the review that appeared yesterday, it's been out for well over a month.



Betowess said:


> Regards Spypets query, I imagine the root tabs are for plants which require nutrient uptake through their roots eg Anubias, Crypts etc


According to their own statements, this product is supposed to full of the good stuff already ??? Flourite and Eco don't require the addition of amendments and since they compare this to Eco and Flourite ...


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

spypet said:


> what a self serving review... sure any tank with fresh substrate AND fert tabs will do better than old eco and old flourite... give me a break.


But dude, you asked for a review and lo, one appeared.


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## esarkipato (Jul 19, 2005)

spypet said:


> what a self serving review... sure any tank with fresh substrate AND fert tabs will do better than old eco and old flourite... give me a break.


I can appreciate a skeptic, but sheesh....

How about you give yourself a cost-benefit analysis: by saving money NOT buying 5 bags ECO complete you can afford to add fertilizer tabs to this new substrate.

OR, why doesn't someone just bite the bullet (hint hint) and set up 2 new tanks, one ECO and one aquariumplants.com and do a little test :icon_excl 

Anyone know how much shipping is for a "5 gallon" bucket?


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Whatever happened to using a ruler as a size reference in pictures? :icon_lol:


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

I was just pointing out the little known fact that a US Nickel is exactly 2mm thick, but I'm glad you all had a good laugh instead. 
Of course ANY point a measure reference the photographer bothers to place in their picture is greatly appreciated :flick:


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

spypet said:


> I was just pointing out the little known fact that a US Nickel is exactly 2mm thick, but I'm glad you all had a good laugh instead.


And a Morgan Silver dollar is exactly 3.1mm! Weeeeeeeeeeee :icon_lol: Can I have a cookie too?

Just like any hobby when something new comes out there will be people who claim the product is crap before trying it. Or they dismiss any and all claims may by the producer. Just ignore them until someone actually has first hand experience.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

glass-gardens.com said:


> Take a Milwaukee regulator, swap it's bubble counter for a JBJ bubble counter and slap your name on it ...


Actually, the Aquariumplants.com regulator has a Cornelius regulator, a Clippard needlevalve and Clippard check valve, an Asian Bubblecounter, and a German made solenoid. Its total quality - and if they borrowed the design from anyone, it was from Rex. This is a great regulator. 

You maybe talking about their older regulator, which was a Milwaukee knockoff piece of ... But I give them credit for making it *WAY* better. Probably the best all in one available today (besides Rex's).


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Betowess said:


> Actually, the Aquariumplants.com regulator has a Cornelius regulator, a Clippard needlevalve and Clippard check valve, an Asian Bubblecounter, and a German made solenoid. Its total quality - and if they borrowed the design from anyone, it was from Rex. This is a great regulator.
> 
> You maybe talking about their older regulator, which was a Milwaukee knockoff piece of ... But I give them credit for making it *WAY* better. Probably the best all in one available today (besides Rex's).


They used to offer the "Top Gun" which was a MA957 with a JBJ bubble counter and an extra o-ring. I do not think they are a POS, I have 4 that work flawlessly.....DC


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Burks said:


> Just like any hobby when something new comes out there will be people who claim the product is crap before trying it. Or they dismiss any and all claims may by the producer. Just ignore them until someone actually has first hand experience.


The counter to that of course is that far too many companies have made claims that are complete BS hype, and consumers who ask for hard data aren't saying it's crap, they simply want proof of the claims, which is an entirely reasonable request. Personally if someone makes a claim about their product but doesn't to provide legitimate data to back it up, that pretty much tells you the company is hiding something.

Too many times people have jumped on a bandwagon and followed the herd, only to find the wheels are flat a mile down the road.

As for the former "Top Gun", they came out with it at a time when there was a lot of debate about the quality of the Milwaukee compared to the JBJ, and they didn't didn't market it as a modified Milwaukee, they claimed they made it themselves in their "manufacturing facilities.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

> According to the review that appeared yesterday, it's been out for well over a month.


Yes, the review was written before the product came out apparently. :tongue: Look, the claims made by any company of a substratre are very hard to prove. Its very hard to test. Its even harder without a guranteed analysis. Nobody even knows what this is made out of. The only reason anyone is taking this the least bit seriously is because of the price. If I could find a fine black gravel in bulk and throw it in a five gallon bucket, I could make the same claims. Even Amano's substrates are vague at best.

There is nothing wrong with Flourite or Eco Complete. We know they are made out of clay. We know clay provides iron and other minerals. Pretty cut and dry. Does anyone know what Soilmaster is made of? If aquariumplants comes out with more verifiable information, then people can make a more intelligent desicion. If it really is an all inclusive fertilizer substrate medium that doesn't cloud the water and does all they say it does, then they are buying it in bulk from someone, and eventually other people will find out that source.


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Robert H said:


> Does anyone know what Soilmaster is made of?


Fracted clay. According to a distributer I purchased from "select" is fired longer......DC


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

DiabloCanine said:


> They used to offer the "Top Gun" which was a MA957 with a JBJ bubble counter and an extra o-ring. I do not think they are a POS, I have 4 that work flawlessly.....DC


Yeah, I have two (a JBJ and a Milwaukee) which both leak and I won't sell to anyone used. They are each a POS. Neither is over 3 years old.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

> According to a distributer I purchased from "select" is fired longer


Is that good or bad? There is just so much hype around substrates, I have just never wanted to get involved in it. I toyed with the idea of coming up with my own substrate mixes with soil, peat, or worm castings, but decided against it. The idea of of something cheap and easy in a five gallon bucket is intrigueing though. My hat goes off to them for coming up with the idea. It will be interesting to see if they can back any of it up with more data.

Ocean Nutrition came out with a fertilizer line under some Italian guys name, and the response on the internet has been it must all be marketing BS, and I have not read anyone even interested in looking at it seriously, and this is a big, nationwide multi million dollar manufacturer, so I find it rather ironic that people are willing to look seriously at a product from such a small business at a small scale that is't spending millions of dollars in ad campaigns!


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Robert H said:


> Is that good or bad?


I have used both types, only noticed a slight color difference. Don't know for sure but, might be they fire soilmaster select longer for its water absorption properties for layering, after all it is used as a soil conditioner......DC


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## original kuhli (Nov 28, 2006)

What's new, most people are looking way past slick marketing...


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Betowess said:


> He mentioned he was coming out with a new substrate which would be black in color, like the Eco and the yet to be released Black Flourite by Seachem. Well, I just noticed tonight that they have it for sale. A 5 gallon bucket for $30.00.


If you are going to order this please post on the GSAS.org mailing list to see if anyone will split shipping. (My Eco was acquired this way)


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

Robert H said:


> Even Amano's substrates are vague at best.


Yet people use that stuff all the time. Is it the name or is it *really* that damn good?

Real world experience trumps producer claims any day.


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

bharada said:


> Whatever happened to using a ruler as a size reference in pictures? :icon_lol:


Metric or IP ?


And yes, in grain size, it certainly does resemble SMS Pro, even has some non-black bits in it...


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

jhoetzl said:


> Metric or IP ?
> 
> 
> And yes, in grain size, it certainly does resemble SMS Pro, even has some non-black bits in it...


Soilmaster select is less than a nickel a pound though. I wonder how many 5 gallon buckets you could get out of 250 pounds?......DC


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

yoink said:


> Bill, have you ever used soilmaster select? I am interested in the similarities between the two. They look similar anyway.


Hey, I just noticed, that stuff looks familiar.....DC


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Burks said:


> Real world experience trumps producer claims any day.


I trust independent lab analysis over experience simply because user experience can be very subjective and I don't see any real world experience that would withstand scientific scrutiny as to the conclusions. 

I used to drive a Chevy, it was a POS, then I bought my Ford, it's great, therefore Ford is better than Chevy, right?


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## triple red (May 27, 2005)

yoink said:


> Ok, here it is with 5 nickels, 6 quarters, a 5 pence piece, and a happy face of dimes. I tried unsuccesfully to locate a chucky cheese token, I'm sorry.


OH MY GOD :hihi: roflol


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Alright then. I opened my front door this afternoon to find a bright red, 5 gal bucket from aquariumplants.com.

Here are the pics of it compared to Turface Pro League...



















The only difference I can see right off is that the Aquariumplants.com substrate seems to have less small grains (~1mm) than the Turface. But aside from that they appear to be identical. So maybe it's Soilmaster Select instead?

Seeing this, I'm not going to bother doing any extensive testing since there's abundant information already posted on using Turface/Soilmaster as a substrate.

I hereby relinquish my "David Horowitz" credentials. :icon_lol:


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

To close, I should add that the filled bucket weighed in at ~35#, so my $57(including shipping) bought me approximately 33# of substrate ($1.73/#).

Contrast this to a locally purchased, 50# bag of Turface Pro League at $20 (including tax, or 40¢/#) and you can see that there are better deals to be had out in the marketplace.

A lesson learned for the price of a family night out at Applebees.


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## Ryzilla (Oct 29, 2005)

bharada said:


> To close, I should add that the filled bucket weighed in at ~35#, so my $57(including shipping) bought me approximately 33# of substrate ($1.73/#).
> 
> Contrast this to a locally purchased, 50# bag of Turface Pro League at $20 (including tax, or 40¢/#) and you can see that there are better deals to be had out in the marketplace.
> 
> A lesson learned for the price of a family night out at Applebees.


love the analasys here. This is why TPT get a thumbs up. I wouldnt be suprised if they are sifting the turface pro league and once that have sifted enoughth they will release there own sand substrate product.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

glass-gardens.com said:


> I trust independent lab analysis over experience simply because user experience can be very subjective and I don't see any real world experience that would withstand scientific scrutiny as to the conclusions.
> 
> I used to drive a Chevy, it was a POS, then I bought my Ford, it's great, therefore Ford is better than Chevy, right?



Glass is spot on here. You can't "prove" results with 3 or 4 tanks. I doubt that any 1 bag of flourite and any 1 bag of this stuff could be justifiably considered a "random sample" nor do I think it is a very good sample size. When it comes down to it, 1 bag/bucket of the stuff that's all in the same aquarium, and you only set up 1 aquarium of each, won't give you enough data to get very stable results.

For a TRUE experiment, you'd have to really up the sample size!

Since very few of us are in the position to set up 20-30 tanks for each and then perfectly control all variables to give a good analysis, I'm with glass on leaving "proving" data to the labs. Or Tom Barr. XD


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

*bharada *; thanks for taking the time to post that picture. it's what makes these hobby forums such a wonderful resource.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Ryzilla said:


> love the analasys here. This is why TPT get a thumbs up. I wouldnt be suprised if they are sifting the turface pro league and once that have sifted enoughth they will release there own sand substrate product.


Hehe I thought of the same thing, well I guess we know what it is then! 

Now the price is $35 for it shipped... which isnt too too bad:icon_neut 

Oh and if you want cheap black sand I read HomeDepot has 3mm black quartz sand, I haven't gone to see if that is true yet though.

- Andrew


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

Thanks for the analysis Bill and being a bit of a guinea pig. 
Is it legal to repackage a product and call it your own? Seems like there are some patent laws against that to me


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

bigstick120 said:


> Thanks for the analysis Bill and being a bit of a guinea pig.
> Is it legal to repackage a product and call it your own? Seems like there are some patent laws against that to me


It's called 'taking one for the team'. :icon_lol:

As for repackaging products, that's what OEMing is all about. Think about all the PC components that are sold under different brand names, but are all manufactured by one company.

I'm beginning to think that what makes this substrate special is it being aged in the magic red bucket. :icon_mrgr


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Let me speak up for Aquariumplants.com: Many people have had trouble finding SM in their area, especially the charcoal color. So, they have not been able to use it. Aquariumplants.com is repackaging what is probably SM, and making it available at a very low price for the benefit of those people. Aquariumplants.com is certainly not a manufacturer of substrates, so it had to follow that they found something that was suitable for use as a substrate, but was cheap for them to buy, and apparently SM is what it was. So, I say, thanks to them for doing this favor for us.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

Fish Newb said:


> cheap black sand I read HomeDepot has 3mm black quartz sand.


Fish, keep us updated on this. while I would not call 3mm grains "sand", such a black item would be a perfect base lower layer for a tank using Eco Complete on top, which is something I'm probably going to do on my next BIG tank :icon_mrgr


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Well, my point in this exercise was to cut out all the speculation on this 'new' product.

But Hoppy is right. Now we know that if you have no way of getting Soilmaster Select or Turface through local channels you have the option of getting it from aquariumplants.com.

When you think about it, it's no different than what Greg Watson does selling dry ferts.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

bharada said:


> To close, I should add that the filled bucket weighed in at ~35#, so my $57(including shipping) bought me approximately 33# of substrate ($1.73/#).
> 
> Contrast this to a locally purchased, 50# bag of Turface Pro League at $20 (including tax, or 40¢/#) and you can see that there are better deals to be had out in the marketplace.
> 
> A lesson learned for the price of a family night out at Applebees.


And two bags of flourite (30 lbs) shipped would be $40.00. A substantial part of that cost is freight. I guess it figures. Substrates are heavy so pickup locally if at all possible. Still, I'm glad they are offering it. 

And thanks for doing the deed, Bill!


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## yoink (Apr 21, 2005)

I'm sure if lesco/oildri where selling aquarium substrate they would charge quite a bit more than what they do for soil conditioner too.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

bharada said:


> Alright then. I opened my front door this afternoon to find a bright red, 5 gal bucket from aquariumplants.com.
> 
> Here are the pics of it compared to Turface Pro League...
> 
> ...


Great work !!! Good info.



bharada said:


> Well, my point in this exercise was to cut out all the speculation on this 'new' product.
> 
> But Hoppy is right. Now we know that if you have no way of getting Soilmaster Select or Turface through local channels you have the option of getting it from aquariumplants.com.
> 
> When you think about it, it's no different than what Greg Watson does selling dry ferts.


Actually it is, Watson is selling bulk ferts, but he isn't making the claim that their manufactured by or for him, whereas AP is claiming their's is exclusive, insinuating that you can't get it anywhere else.

Whether they mean you can't get the stuff anywhere else, or you can't get it with their label pasted on a red bucket is something they have to clarify.

I'm still waiting to see some kind of lab analysis, but I have a feeling we'll never see it, and if we do, it will be by some anonymous company which they can't reveal because of "propreitary information.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

glass-gardens.com said:


> Actually it is, Watson is selling bulk ferts, but he isn't making the claim that their manufactured by or for him, whereas AP is claiming their's is exclusive, insinuating that you can't get it anywhere else.


That's just marketing.

My point is that Greg takes bulk product, repackages it and sell it under his own label as aquarium fertilizer.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

But he's also very up front about what he's doing.

There's marketing and then there's "creative" marketing. One is honest and straight forward, the other goes back to the days of snake oil in my opinion.


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

Well, certainly, I never have enough pails or buckets handy when I do aquascaping stuff. A new, shiny red bucket is good to have around! :biggrin: 

I agree with the several Greg Watson comparisons. 

There are definately occasions when I'm willing and happy to pay for convenience, and glad to have someone else do the leg-work for me. If you're not near a large city sometimes this product is very hard to locate. In other instances, I can see where someone may not need 50# of Soilmaster and not want to store a lot of left over product.

That said, _however, _ I appreciate truthfulness! Let me elect to pay for the service and convenience. I don't want to feel like I've been dupped later!!!


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

spypet said:


> Fish, keep us updated on this. while I would not call 3mm grains "sand", such a black item would be a perfect base lower layer for a tank using Eco Complete on top, which is something I'm probably going to do on my next BIG tank :icon_mrgr


Yes I believe I saw it on Aquatic Plant Central In the El Natural section because people used that to cover thier mud:hihi: ... Will check, But lets not go off topic here.

- Andrew

Here is what I was refering to

El Natural With A Twist (long 56k!) - Aquatic Plant Central- aquascaping...a living art

the sand is later in the first post


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## Blacksunshine (Oct 11, 2006)

bharada said:


> It's called 'taking one for the team'. :icon_lol:
> 
> As for repackaging products, that's what OEMing is all about. Think about all the PC components that are sold under different brand names, but are all manufactured by one company.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that what makes this substrate special is it being aged in the magic red bucket. :icon_mrgr


Altho that statement is true to some extent. the OEMs that repackage and sell under their label have OEM aggreements with the MFG's that allow them to do so. without some sort of aggrement from the original source it is patent infringment. Big no no. 
That is if they are not getting it from the originating source that also supplies the makers of soilmaster. If thats the case and Soilmaster is not an exclusive product made/developed by that company then it is just an earth mineral that is free for anyone to source and resell.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

So I guess we really can't get away from speculation in this thread, can we? None of us know what business arrangements have been made by aquriumplants.com to sell this substrate so why bring it up at all?


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> So I guess we really can't get away from speculation in this thread, can we? None of us know what business arrangements have been made by aquriumplants.com to sell this substrate so why bring it up at all?


You are absolutely right there, Bill. Absolutely right. 


Mike


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Momotaro said:


> You are absolutely right there, Bill. Absolutely right.
> 
> 
> Mike


I agree also! So unless someone asks the owners, I think the speculations should end?

- Andrew


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## Fishgovno (Dec 8, 2006)

Good idea on the stop assuming.
aquariumplants.com's substrate is not SMS it is minned for them and there own line of product, not someone elses re packaged.
The reason substrate tablets is suggested is due to the extra nutrients given by substrate tablets quickly- if you have tried them you would understand what a difference they make very fast.
There will be more information available ASAP.
I have but one coment about some of the forum members on this site it is very unfair to pee on the forum sponsers if such behavior goes on it is a wounder that there are any sponsers left,I know if I was contributing to this site I sure as hell would not be for very long if such behaviour continues.I noticed it states that not to put negative feed back on the sponsers area -so negative feed back some where else is ok? 
There seems to be some sort of trend going on with forum sponsers drobing there sponsership around north america-I wounder why?
Mom always said it best if you have nothing nice to say Shut your mouth.
Everyone is entitled to there opinion and that's all it is a opinion.(this is mine)


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Since you appear to be a representative of the company in question, how about instead of complaining about the speculation here, you take the time to answer the questions people are asking and ending the speculation.

You say it's mined for you? Where, what company?

Where's the independent analysis? What lab performed it?

It's very unreasonable for you to expect there not be any speculation when you put something like this out there and then just keep saying more info is coming without ever posting it.

You're a business, you should be willing to back up your claims with evidence supporting them, if you aren't, then you shouldn't complain about speculation.

If we can't have an honest discussion on this forum, then why have the forum.

No one is attacking you or your company, we're discussing one of your products and you could easily add to that discussion by providing us with information.

I see no need to be complaining about people discussing something, you have no right to demand we simply be cheerleaders for you.


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## Fishgovno (Dec 8, 2006)

Firstly not my company.
I do know there will be information available soon.I don't have it yet.
I was just stating that there is a lot of complaining and speculating.There are a lot of forums I belong to and the ones in Canada have a rule that does not allow forum members to make shots at sponsers or non sponsers or even for that matter at other members...
What I have read kinda buggs the crap out of me that the mod team allows such behavior and then inturn the forum expects some donations or help from sponsers why would they do that(I can say that-seeing I am not a sponser or a store owner)I just can't sit back and watch any store/sponser get ripped apart I have had my share of bad deals or bad stores but that is between me and them.
I can go and on about this but there is no point I am done,just putting in my 2 cents.I am sure aquariumplants.com will issue what information they have when they have it.


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## kgbenson (Oct 29, 2006)

glass-gardens.com said:


> You say it's mined for you? Where, what company?
> 
> Where's the independent analysis? What lab performed it?
> 
> I see no need to be complaining about people discussing something, you have no right to demand we simply be cheerleaders for you.


This brings up a couple of questions:

Who mines SMS? Where, what company?

Can you point me to an independent analysis of SMS? I can't seme to find one. It may exist but it is not super easy to find. What lab performed the analysis.

Did he demand that we simply be cheerleaders?

Keith


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

The ASSuming has begun once again!

Fish Newb makes a good point. Maybe someone should send AP the link to this topic and let them answer our questions?


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Fishgovno said:


> Firstly not my company.
> I do know there will be information available soon.I don't have it yet


No offense, but would you buy a car without learning all you could about it first?



Fishgovno said:


> I was just stating that there is a lot of complaining and speculating


Haven't seen anything resembling complaining at least in this thread, speculation yes, but speculation under the circumstances is neither unreasonable or demeaning to your company. A forum that doesn't allow free, legitimate discussion is hardly worthy of patronage.



Fishgovno said:


> There are a lot of forums I belong to and the ones in Canada have a rule that does not allow forum members to make shots at sponsers or non sponsers or even for that matter at other members[/qoogle}
> 
> If I google your username, can I find examples of the type of discussions you approve of on those other forums?
> 
> ...


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Actually one of the other posters emailed them awhile back and as far as I know has not received any answers.

And if one went through life without ever making an assumption about anything, well, try walking through Compton at midnight with a wad of cash in your hand without assuming your going to get robbed :icon_mrgr

Or better yet, I have this black plastic tube, put it in your tank and I guarantee that it will make your tank look pristine and spectacular over night. It uses no electricity, no maintenace is required.

Now, that's all I'm saying about it, and I'll be highly offended if anyone dares to question whether or not it works, or discusses what it is or even how it works beyond what I've already told them :icon_mrgr


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Back on topic guys... 
Bill, I am curious if you notice any lower pH or KH/GH . Apparently SMS drops the pH etc. considerably, so when you try out the new Aquariumplants.com substrate, please let us know. Thanks, bob


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

Fishgovno said:


> aquariumplants.com's substrate is not SMS it is mined for them


You are going to tell me that Aquarium Plants.com has their own mining contract? Pretty big for such a small company. 

I think we are too nice around here. We aren't allowed to question, to be skeptical. Since our sponsors are a presence on the forum they can be expected to chime in and set us straight whenever we have a problem/query.


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

Fishgovno, if you want to make these statements, please let it be known where you are getting this information from.


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

Fishgovno said:


> Firstly not my company.
> I do know there will be information available soon.I don't have it yet.
> I was just stating that there is a lot of complaining and speculating.There are a lot of forums I belong to and the ones in Canada have a rule that does not allow forum members to make shots at sponsers or non sponsers or even for that matter at other members...
> What I have read kinda buggs the crap out of me that the mod team allows such behavior and then inturn the forum expects some donations or help from sponsers why would they do that(I can say that-seeing I am not a sponser or a store owner)I just can't sit back and watch any store/sponser get ripped apart I have had my share of bad deals or bad stores but that is between me and them.
> I can go and on about this but there is no point I am done,just putting in my 2 cents.I am sure aquariumplants.com will issue what information they have when they have it.


Not allowing forum members to voice their opinion about a "new" product is completely rediculous, especially when almost nothing is known about the product. Censorship is not a part of free speech, obviously. If someone raises legitimate questions about something related to their agenda, in our case aquatic plants, then there should be discussion especially when in this case the soil raises more questions than answers. 

Sponsorship is simply a means of getting good advertising and promoting your product and at the same time supporting the cause of your potential customers. If you are a sponsor of this forum then I feel that it is your utmost responsibility to answer the questions and concerns that forum members have about your product. If we as forum members were not allowed to talk about the products of the sponsors then there could be several people that end up purchasing a bad product, whereas if there is legitimate discussion it can greatly benefit all members of the forum as well as those "lurking." That is the whole meaning of a forum isn't it, information exchange?

If I was aquariumplants.com then I would be on this forum answering ALL of the questions about my new soil, in order to avoid speculation and concern. It would only make sense. Not having enough information about my new product, combined with a lot of speculation, would make me look as if I was selling a bad product. How many times have we seen where a company is forced to answer the questions of consumers? When have you ever heard that consumers are not allowed to ask questions? The "Nutrional Facts" on the back of every edible item in this country is for the consumers, and not the company.

Information exchange is what free speech is all about and the internet greatly facilitates it.

The forum has leverage over the sponsor here, and not the other way around!

-Ryan


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

Well put Ryan. What would be the point of us not questioning? You might as well read a magazine or a book, where all the products are great and none of them suck according to the adds.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Wow. With so many passionate posts here you'd think aquariumplants.com was claiming to be selling a bucket full of cancer curing drugs rather than aquarium substrate.

Acrillite-based substrates (hey, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... ) work well so it's not even a bad substrate that they're selling.

I wouldn't be surprised if they drop the product from their site and return to the simpler life of fielding complaints from angry plant buying customers.


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## JustOneMore21 (May 23, 2006)

> Wow. With so many passionate posts here you'd think aquariumplants.com was claiming to be selling a bucket full of cancer curing drugs rather than aquarium substrate.


I was thinking the same thing....

I have been following this thread because I plan to use the new substrate in my new 38g tank and wanted to see what people think about it....but wow...this thread has gotten crazy!

I still plan on trying it whether its a knock-off or whatever. Eco-complete is just too expensive for me and I can't get SMS...so the AP stuff is a great find for me.


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

Love4Animals20 said:


> I was thinking the same thing....
> 
> I have been following this thread because I plan to use the new substrate in my new 38g tank and wanted to see what people think about it....but wow...this thread has gotten crazy!
> 
> I still plan on trying it whether its a knock-off or whatever. Eco-complete is just too expensive for me and I can't get SMS...so the AP stuff is a great find for me.


There are a few lesco's in your area why can you not get SMS? Check out lesco.com


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## Fishgovno (Dec 8, 2006)

Boy is this sad did any of you read the whole post?

There is a breaking point to people putting up with stupid comments,numerous times in this post you attack Greg Watson and aquariumplants.com crap if I were both of them yyou clowns would get a law suiot just like that one advertised on Chuck Gads site.
I never said lets not have free speech I said that if you have a good opinion tried something like it share your opinion. Your ideas about what is right and wrong amaze me an axe murder thinks he is right and what he has said or done is ok.?
Ah forget it just a waste of time keep being right and have a nice life.


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

Fishgovno said:


> Boy is this sad did any of you read the whole post?
> Are you realy that dumb?
> There is a breaking point to people putting up with stupid comments,numerous times in this post you attack Greg Watson and aquariumplants.com crap if I were both of them yyou clowns would get a law suiot just like that one advertised on Chuck Gads site.
> I never said lets not have free speech I said that if you have a good opinion tried something like it share your opinion. Your ideas about what is right and wrong amaze me an axe murder thinks he is right and what he has said or done is ok.?
> Ah forget it just a waste of time keep being right and have a nice life.


I can't understand your grammer. Please edit, so I can understand you better.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Fishgovno said:


> Boy is this sad did any of you read the whole post?
> Are you realy that dumb?
> There is a breaking point to people putting up with stupid comments,numerous times in this post you attack Greg Watson and aquariumplants.com crap if I were both of them yyou clowns would get a law suiot just like that one advertised on Chuck Gads site.
> I never said lets not have free speech I said that if you have a good opinion tried something like it share your opinion. Your ideas about what is right and wrong amaze me an axe murder thinks he is right and what he has said or done is ok.?
> Ah forget it just a waste of time keep being right and have a nice life.


This thread appears to be heading nowhere fast.

Thanks to Betowess for pointing out the new new offering by aquariumplants.com. I'll take credit/blame for saying that it appears to be the same material as Turface/Soilmaster.

If you're out in nowhereland and can't find a local Lesco or Turface dealership you now have another option at your disposal.

With that said this thread is officially closed.


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