# Have Kitty Litter as a Substrate? I do! *Pics



## Blacksunshine

looks good. Been waiting to see someone with it in theirs. did it have a weird chem kinda smell to it?


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## Are-Jay

Wow! Your tank looks amazing =) Its nice to see someone else that likes guppy's!


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## equus_peduus

Blacksunshine said:


> did it have a weird chem kinda smell to it?


I use Special Kitty for my cat... it's an unscented nonclumping clay litter for about $2.26/25lb bag (the price went up a little a few months ago, at least in my area ). I think they also have a scented one, but if you're getting it for an aquarium, I'd say the unscented is better  It's a red bag. I've wondered about using it, but was afraid to try.


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## susankat

A lot of people in our fish club use kitty litter. The one in the red bag as it has no additives to it. Its basically the same as using latrite. as it comes from the same source.


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## Homer_Simpson

That is truly amazing. I was going to experiment with the Special Kitty Wal-Mart brand, but I noticed that it had Diatomaceous earth added to it(at least the bag that my local Wal-Mart sells). DE is sometimes used as a natural insecticide to kill things such as bed bugs. It is also know to cut up and kill fauna like shrimp, so I decided against using it as I was going to be keeping shrimp in the tank. Are there brands of Special Kitty Brand Litter that don't contain DE?? I also heard that Kitty litter breaks down too quickly over time and will create issues. I have found far too often that there is no conistency in experiences and sometimes what people say does not always translate to reality, so I like to experiment.


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## druxboyz

Its been in my tank for 16 months now and it honestly looks the same and feels the same as the day i got it. It doesnt seem to break down into mush, if thats what you were afraid of. Although i've only had it for a year and a half, it seems that it could last much longer.

As for DE, i havent tried to keep any shrimp so I cant tell you much. I do have snails that do very well.

The downside is that I want a different color substrate ... the upside is that i'm only out 12 bucks if i get something new because the litter is so cheap


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## Rod Hay

I used Special Kitty from Walmart in my outdoor planting baskets for my summer water gardens. It seemed to never rinse clear. However I went ahead and used it. Plants grew just fine. But when I re-arranged plantings I would have some silt in the water column until it settled or was filtered out. So, it may work okay in a low tech tank where you don't do much replanting, but I think I'd be annoyed with it in a high tech tank. Also, no shrimp in my ponds, but tons of snails and all fish okay.


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## Wasserpest

Been using that for years in my tanks. It is baked clay, just like SMS or Schultz Aquatic Soil or Flourite... just really cheap. This was discussed a few times, and the risk is that it could be mined in different areas, and some bags might contain other things than other bags. Always a good idea to test pH and hardness and PO4 and stuff before committing to it as a tank substrate.

I like to use a layer of peat, then the Kitty litter, and cover that up with a little bit of Flourite. The heavier Flourite on top makes for easier planting.

Good looking tank, but the plant choice could use some improvement... I think.


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## druxboyz

yea, i'm not liking my plant choices at all. I bought 1 val over a year ago to test whether kitty litter would work. It worked well as all those are offspring of that single one. After that, i got lazy anddidnt buy anymore. So, here i am today, showing my 1 species tank.  It will change soon, right after finals!


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## psybock

As far as the DE being poisonous to shrimp I don't believe it would be, after all, that is what Diatom Filters use as the media...

Anyway, if you want a different color you can always put a layer of gravel over it to suite your desired hue. Just remember when you are cleaning it not to dig down too deep and cause a rukus of kitty litter particles flying around...

Kevin


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## Mishmosh

*Special Kitty*

I bought some special Kitty in the red bags. I think they are $2+ for 25lbs. What I am not getting is that the material is a mix of powder, small granules, and some flourite-sized pebbles. Wetting the stuff resulted in mush. How am I supposed to rinse this stuff into useable substrate. Did I get the right stuff? The yellow bag of "premium" Special kitty advertises "99% dust free" but that stuff is scented. Any hints appreciated.


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## bsmith

Do you guys/girls soak it in anything for extra fertilization, or is it just like laterite out of the bag, doing nothing else to it?


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## Wasserpest

Mishmosh said:


> I bought some special Kitty in the red bags. I think they are $2+ for 25lbs. What I am not getting is that the material is a mix of powder, small granules, and some flourite-sized pebbles. Wetting the stuff resulted in mush. How am I supposed to rinse this stuff into useable substrate. Did I get the right stuff? The yellow bag of "premium" Special kitty advertises "99% dust free" but that stuff is scented. Any hints appreciated.


You did not get the right stuff. That's the problem with Kitty litter... you can not be sure where it is produced and how it reacts to water. Even if you got the right brand, it could be/will be very different in an Ohio store and a California store.

Key is non-clumping, non-scented. You could try other brands, the cheaper, the more likely it is to work. But you would be better off testing its effect on water quality, and there is no guarantee that it will not turn to mush over time anyway.


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## Wasserpest

bsmith782 said:


> Do you guys/girls soak it in anything for extra fertilization, or is it just like laterite out of the bag, doing nothing else to it?


I would treat it the same as SMS/Schultz/Flourite etc. Do you soak it in anything? Probably not. :wink: 

I add quite a few Jobs as the first thing when setting up tank. So they are on the bottom glass, and then covered by whatever peat kitty litter flourite substrate goes on top.


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## bsmith

Wasserpest said:


> I would treat it the same as SMS/Schultz/Flourite etc. Do you soak it in anything? Probably not. :wink:


Never used any of those, straight Aqua Soil for me, but thanks.


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## eden_angelfish

Interesting....very interesting. Has anyone used any brands other than special kitty? If I wanted to try this in an already running tank, would I have to completely drain it out and start over to put it in, or would I be able to just dump it in and then spread a layer of gravel over it? The tank I am thinking of is currently a mix of pea gravel, playground sand, and locally collected pieces of 'pretty' rocks (jasper, agate, and a bit of amethyst) Also, someone mentioned that it can cut up shrimp. What about fish that spend a lot of time on or in the substrate like cories and loaches? I have a small kuhli loach that spends most of his time burrowing, and I don't want to hurt him.

I also had another interesting thought today while starting some seeds for my vegetable garden. I bought some cheap generic potting soil at Walmart and it's very heavy and sandy. Which got me thinking, I wonder if it would sink to the bottom and go into my aquarium substrate? I put some in a glass and rinsed it a few times to get rid of those little white things they put in there (can't remember what that's called...) and then filled the glass to let it sit. It pretty much all settled, leaving me with surprisingly clear water. So I'm thinking I may try that in a tank. Anyone tried something like that?


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## lauraleellbp

Many people use potting soil; just you need to be careful about the additives and organic matter, as they can 1) decompose and cause ammonia/nitrIte issues, 2) encourage algae, 3) have substances that will cause other water quality issues when constantly underwater


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## Beeker

I know this is an old thread, but I am curious about eden angelfish's question about bottom dwellers. I am considering using kitty litter, but am planning on getting Khuli Loaches, which like to burrow. How is kitty litter on these sensitive fish? Was what E A heard about it cutting shrimp true?


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## stilwelljr

*Kitty liter Question!*

Hey I am kind of new to this kitty liter as a substrate ..but I have a 20Gal High that I want to try it in ..Should I wash or lightly rinse the kitty liter first (to remove any fine dust)or can I just add it to Tank..I am planning on using it as a bottom layer and topped with Fine gravel and pea gravel .. Please Advise.. Thanks


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## CrazyMidwesterner

I've never used Kitty litter but I've used SMS and Oil Dri which are both similiar and I rinsed those good. Both were "Dirty"

Basically took a 5 Gallon bucket, poured in some of the oil dri, and used a sprayer on the garden hose to violently fill the bucket. Then quickly poor the water out. You don't have to be super careful and get all the water out just most of it and the sediment that is suspended in it.

Repeat as necessary. As the water clears out dump the "Clean" subtrate into another tote and refill the 5 gallon bucket with stuff you need to rinse.

I think my oil dri took me about 1.5 half to clean the whole bag well and that stuff was much more dirty than the SMS. I would assume Kitty Litter is pretty "dirty" so I would rinse it well.


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## CrazyMidwesterner

Also, the water for me was never Crystal clear as I was cleaning it just very transparent when I was done. I figured as long as I would spraying a hose directly on it, it was safe to expect some particles to still be in the water. 

Once in the tank there was no visible sediment in the water column after filling it though.


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx

Never thought of it, but went out today and picked up a 25lb bag of Special Kitty: Natural Cat Litter today, and plan on using it in my 55 gallon acrylic tank when I set it up.


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## UGA_Grad_Student

xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx said:


> Never thought of it, but went out today and picked up a 25lb bag of Special Kitty: Natural Cat Litter today, and plan on using it in my 55 gallon acrylic tank when I set it up.


Please let me know how that goes. I am two weeks from putting substrate in my 55 gallon and I am nervous about using sand or soil so this may be a good option.


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx

Well I plan to mix the kitty litter into my soil, and then cap it off with play sand. But I'll let you know it goes.....


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## spyderuk

Kitty litter in my high tech Rio 125.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals/155251-rio-125-high-tech-orphans-island.html


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## Drewsplantednutz

Ive thought about Kitty litter too! Good to see someone using it.


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## Daximus

I have some plants that I potted in kitty litter in one of my tanks and I must say they look great with minimal effort, no ferts, no Co2, no root tabs. 

If/when I redo my 90 I'm thinking about doing a 50/50 mix with cat litter and MGOPS covered in Black Diamond. 

Only concern I have is what kind of cat litter, some of it just dissolves in water and some of it sort of holds it's shape...it's all kind of dusty though.


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## spyderuk

Daximus said:


> Only concern I have is what kind of cat litter, some of it just dissolves in water and some of it sort of holds it's shape...it's all kind of dusty though.


The one used most often in the UK is basically molar clay, much like akadama.


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## drewfish

Would it be a ok to mix the litter with some peat moss as a substrate? Did this building Poisonous Dart Frog tanks to build backgrounds and plants loved it then.


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## GxneFishing

I have a layer of peat moss UNDER my SK kitty litter.. I haven't mixed it up. I did have a sand over peatmoss substrate once before and when i pulled o ut a plant it was like a volcano of peatmoss. I may have done something wrong but I believe the peatmoss likes to float.


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## UGA_Grad_Student

Did it take FOREVER to wash out the KL?? Mine seems to be very dirty


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## drewfish

In that case, I'll probably just float a peat moss ball in one of my HOB filters but may try to mix it. We'll see. Really just want it to lower my ph for angels I'm going to eventually put in tank. Thanks


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## GxneFishing

UGA_Grad_Student said:


> Did it take FOREVER to wash out the KL?? Mine seems to be very dirty


Between the 50 lbs of KL and 25 lbs of Flourite it was a headache! BUT patience pays! I rinsed the bucket and sifted thru it quite a bit 5 gals at a time. Thought I had it good and filled the water VERY slowly! it was still a mess. after filtering the tank a bit a few vacuums it seemed to settle really well. It just takes time.


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## symstep

druxboyz said:


> Its been in my tank for 16 months now and it honestly looks the same and feels the same as the day i got it. It doesnt seem to break down into mush, if thats what you were afraid of. Although i've only had it for a year and a half, it seems that it could last much longer.
> 
> As for DE, i havent tried to keep any shrimp so I cant tell you much. I do have snails that do very well.
> 
> The downside is that I want a different color substrate ... the upside is that i'm only out 12 bucks if i get something new because the litter is so cheap


1 - what made you decide on kitty litter? I have read that it has a fantastic CEC so I am thinking of using it
2- Do you dose any ferts? 
Also I think it looks great for a one species/no hardscape tank


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## Seattle_Aquarist

symstep said:


> 1 - what made you decide on kitty litter? I have read that it has a fantastic CEC so I am thinking of using it
> 2- Do you dose any ferts?
> Also I think it looks great for a one species/no hardscape tank


Hi @symstep,

Wow, a 2007-2012 thread...way to dig up the past!

Actually, clay substrates do have a high CEC however even Special Kitty kitty litter is a little 'soft' and breaks down after a year or so. I prefer calcined Montmorillonite clay which is 'fired' longer to make it harder so it doesn't break down as quickly. I've used several different types over the years, the one I currently use is *Safe-t-sorb (STS)*, a 40# bag is available at Tractor Supply Company for $6.49.

Here is a 10 gallon with STS, low light ([email protected]), Ferts, no CO2 but Excel / glutaraldehyde


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## symstep

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @symstep,
> 
> Wow, a 2007-2012 thread...way to dig up the past!
> 
> Actually, clay substrates do have a high CEC however even Special Kitty kitty litter is a little 'soft' and breaks down after a year or so. I prefer calcined Montmorillonite clay which is 'fired' longer to make it harder so it doesn't break down as quickly. I've used several different types over the years, the one I currently use is *Safe-t-sorb (STS)*, a 40# bag is available at Tractor Supply Company for $6.49.
> 
> Here is a 10 gallon with STS, low light ([email protected]), Ferts, no CO2 but Excel / glutaraldehyde


Hey man! Thank you for your reply. I know, it seems I am a few years late on the thread haha
Looked up using the sts and of course found you https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/montmorillonite-clay-are-they-safe.292621/

In terms of the kitty litter, A guy (dr kevin novak) claims he uses it is his denitrification baskets and has not seen any kind of breaking down in over ten years. Has this not been your experience? Possibly a different type of litter? 

You mention a few types of substrate you have used with high cec, May I ask what one is your favorite and why? Would any substrate with a good cec lower the ph temporarily? In my preparation this has been a oversight. So you say it absorbing minerals and carbonates from the water until it is full, does that mean it will have less room to hold things like the ammonia ions for plants? Sorry to throw so many questions


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi @symstep,

I cannot speak to other individuals results, just my own. I have used Special Kitty (the cheap stuff from Walmart) for about 10 years in my emersed 'plant bank' as the topping layer in my pots. After a year it still retains most of its granular integrity, difficult to break up a grain. After two years it is softer and the grain breaks more easily. After three years the I can break a grain between my thumb and forefinger. These are grains of Special Kitty that are not submerged however subject to very, very high humidity. On 02/27/14 I set up my 75 gallon with STS. It ran until 11/27/17 when I did a complete break-down; about 3-3/4 years. At that time the STS was about as soft as the Special Kitty is at three years.

Regrettably the calcined Montmorillonite clay material I like best is no longer available (at least here on the West Coast). It was Soilmaster Select Charcoal colored. It is still going strong in tanks 9 years old. Yes, the higher the CEC of a substrate the more it will lower the pH by stripping out the carbonate ions. Actually I believe most of the nutrient ion exchange occurs with the roots on the surface of the grains of substrate, not within the substrate.

My emersed 'Plant Bank' with humidomes









You can see the Special Kitty as the top layer in this picture.


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## reddhawkk

Seattle_Aquarist, what are you using for lighting on that 10 gallon tank?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi @reddhawkk,

At the time the picture was taken I was useing 2X 10 watt CFL Lights of America aquarium lamps from Walmart. I have since switched to 2X 7 watt LED lamps which also gives me [email protected] however I think a 9 watt would be a better choice. I tried a 13 watt and it was way too bright without CO2. Here is a post I did.


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## symstep

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @symstep,
> 
> I cannot speak to other individuals results, just my own. I have used Special Kitty (the cheap stuff from Walmart) for about 10 years in my emersed 'plant bank' as the topping layer in my pots. After a year it still retains most of its granular integrity, difficult to break up a grain. After two years it is softer and the grain breaks more easily. After three years the I can break a grain between my thumb and forefinger. These are grains of Special Kitty that are not submerged however subject to very, very high humidity. On 02/27/14 I set up my 75 gallon with STS. It ran until 11/27/17 when I did a complete break-down; about 3-3/4 years. At that time the STS was about as soft as the Special Kitty is at three years.
> 
> Regrettably the calcined Montmorillonite clay material I like best is no longer available (at least here on the West Coast). It was Soilmaster Select Charcoal colored. It is still going strong in tanks 9 years old. Yes, the higher the CEC of a substrate the more it will lower the pH by stripping out the carbonate ions. Actually I believe most of the nutrient ion exchange occurs with the roots on the surface of the grains of substrate, not within the substrate.
> 
> My emersed 'Plant Bank' with humidomes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see the Special Kitty as the top layer in this picture.


So based on your experience you would say that sts is just barely better (25%) in terms of longevity then the kitty litter?
Also you are saying sts would then be your favorite?


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi @symstep,

Yes, I would much prefer STS over Special Kitty for a substrate in an aquarium.


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## Phil Edwards

I've used kitty litter for my personal tanks and for research in the past with success. Aside from any chemical properties it may have, it's excellent for reducing compaction when mixed with soil or fine grained sand, such as pool filter stuff. I recommend an 80/20 mix of soil/litter capped with an inch and a half of litter or a 50/50 sand/litter mix. Make sure you're getting calcined clay for the reasons Roy mentioned above.


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## Desert Pupfish

So if a high CEC substrate like STS lowers the pH (and presumably the KH as well) of hard water, how long does this effect last? Presumably you'd get an initial big drop while cycling the tank, but then what? Once the STS has reached saturation with calcium ions, does the pH & hardness then go back to whatever those levels are in the water you use? And how long does that take?

I'm starting a new tank with an organic peat potting soil covered with STS, and what to know what to expect. Don't want to be stressing my fish or plants with drastic swings, nor do I want to invest in fish or plants that prefer low pH/low hardness if it's just going to eventually go back up the high pH & hardness of my tap water. (I know I could use RO, but I'm trying to keep things simple & cheap)


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## DaveKS

Desert Pupfish said:


> So if a high CEC substrate like STS lowers the pH (and presumably the KH as well) of hard water, how long does this effect last? Presumably you'd get an initial big drop while cycling the tank, but then what? Once the STS has reached saturation with calcium ions, does the pH & hardness then go back to whatever those levels are in the water you use? And how long does that take?
> 
> I'm starting a new tank with an organic peat potting soil covered with STS, and what to know what to expect. Don't want to be stressing my fish or plants with drastic swings, nor do I want to invest in fish or plants that prefer low pH/low hardness if it's just going to eventually go back up the high pH & hardness of my tap water. (I know I could use RO, but I'm trying to keep things simple & cheap)


Really from what your describing you need to slightly rethink your approach. Use probably 1/3-1/2 as much organic/humic layer as your envisioning in your head and use a CEC layer with a much lower potential than your envisioning. Most setups like your envisioning perform great (spectacular actually) when first setup but once reality sets in and top layer of substrate build up some mulm things quickly nose dive about 6 months in. 

If you want to give me dimensions of your gravel bed, lighting estimate, plants you want to keep, and co2 situation and I’ll try to formulate a more long term reliable solution for you.

I prefer setting up a tank so it may under perform at 1st but at max of 3-6mo in it will start excelling and be as low maintenance as possible.


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## Phil Edwards

Desert Pupfish said:


> So if a high CEC substrate like STS lowers the pH (and presumably the KH as well) of hard water, how long does this effect last? Presumably you'd get an initial big drop while cycling the tank, but then what? Once the STS has reached saturation with calcium ions, does the pH & hardness then go back to whatever those levels are in the water you use? And how long does that take?


Substrates like this typically don't ever get saturated with a single ion as they're exchanged regularly by other things as the chemical environment changes. That's where the E in cEc comes from; exchange. If you're concerned about a possible pH or hardness crash, make up a concentrated GH buffer solution and soak your litter in it beforehand. Just make sure to monitor GH to make sure you don't end up spiking GH before doing a regular water change. 




Desert Pupfish said:


> I'm starting a new tank with an organic peat potting soil covered with STS, and what to know what to expect. Don't want to be stressing my fish or plants with drastic swings, nor do I want to invest in fish or plants that prefer low pH/low hardness if it's just going to eventually go back up the high pH & hardness of my tap water. (I know I could use RO, but I'm trying to keep things simple & cheap)


You don't want to go over 15% by volume of organic matter, in this case peat. I don't have the citation or my data easily accessible, but I found that somewhere between 10 and 15% OM gives the best results when growing the species I was researching. Any higher than that and anaerobiosis kicks in hard, and less than that doesn't optimize the effects OM has. If you're going to be using peat and kitty litter as your substrate materials I would highly recommend doing a 50/50 mix to about 3/4" on the very bottom then covering it with two inches or more of the litter.


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## Desert Pupfish

DaveKS said:


> Really from what your describing you need to slightly rethink your approach. Use probably 1/3-1/2 as much organic/humic layer as your envisioning in your head and use a CEC layer with a much lower potential than your envisioning. Most setups like your envisioning perform great (spectacular actually) when first setup but once reality sets in and top layer of substrate build up some mulm things quickly nose dive about 6 months in.
> 
> If you want to give me dimensions of your gravel bed, lighting estimate, plants you want to keep, and co2 situation and I’ll try to formulate a more long term reliable solution for you.
> 
> I prefer setting up a tank so it may under perform at 1st but at max of 3-6mo in it will start excelling and be as low maintenance as possible.





DaveKS said:


> Really from what your describing you need to slightly rethink your approach. Use probably 1/3-1/2 as much organic/humic layer as your envisioning in your head and use a CEC layer with a much lower potential than your envisioning. Most setups like your envisioning perform great (spectacular actually) when first setup but once reality sets in and top layer of substrate build up some mulm things quickly nose dive about 6 months in.
> 
> If you want to give me dimensions of your gravel bed, lighting estimate, plants you want to keep, and co2 situation and I’ll try to formulate a more long term reliable solution for you.
> 
> I prefer setting up a tank so it may under perform at 1st but at max of 3-6mo in it will start excelling and be as low maintenance as possible.


Thanks, Dave. This is my first time with doing a dirted tank with STS, so any advice/suggestions welcomed. Sorry if I was a little vague with my description: was planning on an inch or so of peat potting soil, capped with about 2" of STS. Will mineralize the soil some so it won't release too many nutrients & cause a huge algae bloom, but figure some nutrient release at the beginning will help with the fishless cycle. What's your rationale for using a CEC layer with "lower potential"?

Question: thought I'd try using the first rinse water from the potting soil (it has some organic ferts in it) to charge the STS so it could slow release them over time. Is that worth doing, or would they release too quickly and just exacerbate the initial algae bloom? Also, is it advisable to add some form of iron to the substrate? Some have mentioned Ironite, but it also has nitrogen and might throw things even more out of whack. I've head of people using balls of pottery clay, or even non-galvanized nails. Any thoughts? 

Starting out with a few easy plants that can handle varying water parameters: water wisteria, limnophilia, a java fern & some java moss. Also trying to source some red root floater to suck up excess nutrients during the cycle, and help limit light if needed to control algae growth. Otherwise I'll get some water sprite. They also gave me some bonus MTS to help with the algae, and aerate the substrate. Will wait til things have stabilized to put in some crypt balansae in the back so they won't melt, a couple of swords, anubias & java moss on rocks and/or cholla for shady spots, and some low maintenance red plants for the middle directly under the lights (suggestions welcomed) Waiting to decide what carpet plants to use until I see how things settle out, and what light levels I end up with. 

Lighting: Beamswork DA FSPEC LED Aquarium Light Pent Freshwater 0.50W--rated at 5000 lumens since I wanted to be able to add some easy red plants. It's adjustable, so can always dial it down if needed

Tank is 55g tall: 36"x15"x24"high. Will run a sponge filter on a powerhead with 1500l/hr flow. 

I know the soil nutrients will eventually get depleted, and was planning to use root tabs or Osmocote in the substrate when needed. Figure between that and the fish waste it should provide enough nutrients for the plants. Trying to keep it low maintenance, so not planning to use CO2, and would like to avoid daily or weekly fert dosing if possible. 

Livestock: will start with a few guppies once the cycle is completed; add some otos if needed to control algae, and get 4-6 locally bred & raised "Peruvian Altum" angels that I'd like to eventually breed. 

Still wondering what people's experience has been with using a high CEC substrate in hard water--how low it drops pH & hardness, and how long that lasts?


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## Desert Pupfish

Thanks, Phil. 

With my extremely hard & basic water, I'm not worried about a pH crash--I'm actually hoping that the pH and KH will be lowered somewhat. Should it go too low, I can always add more of the liquid rock we call water here. My only question is how much, and how long that pH & KH lowering effect will last--which will inform my plant & livestock choices.

Good idea to mix the peat potting soil with the SafeTsorb. When I opened the bag of soil to soak it, I discovered it has a fair amount of vermiculite in it--so that should help too, I should think. Re the depth of the respective layers: I was using Diana Walstad as a reference, and she recommended 1" soil capped with 2" of gravel or other substrate. But it sounds like less is more when it comes to the soil layer, so will take your advice. I've already got some MTS waiting to go in with the first plants, so am assuming they'll help aerate the substrate and help prevent anaerobiosis

Thanks again


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## Phil Edwards

Pupfish,

I just happened to do my master's research in soil mixtures used to grow aquatic plants so my experiences are a little more recent than Diana's. Her book's still a good primer and starter reference for folks interested in doing soil tanks though. Once of the materials I used was Turface, basically the same thing as the other calcined clay products out there, and after trying it at home I was sold on it. I won't do another soil substrate without it ever again. 

You'll want to get that vermiculite out if at all possible. It's expanded shale, is super light, and serves no practical purpose in aquatic systems. It's added to terrestrial mixes to help with water retention and aeration. You should be able to separate the peat and vermiculite by dumping the mix in a bucket, filling it, and scooping out the floating vermiculite. This is also a good time to mix the STS with the peat. That stuff's a lot easier to work with when moist.


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## Desert Pupfish

Phil Edwards said:


> Pupfish,
> 
> I just happened to do my master's research in soil mixtures used to grow aquatic plants so my experiences are a little more recent than Diana's. Her book's still a good primer and starter reference for folks interested in doing soil tanks though. Once of the materials I used was Turface, basically the same thing as the other calcined clay products out there, and after trying it at home I was sold on it. I won't do another soil substrate without it ever again.
> 
> You'll want to get that vermiculite out if at all possible. It's expanded shale, is super light, and serves no practical purpose in aquatic systems. It's added to terrestrial mixes to help with water retention and aeration. You should be able to separate the peat and vermiculite by dumping the mix in a bucket, filling it, and scooping out the floating vermiculite. This is also a good time to mix the STS with the peat. That stuff's a lot easier to work with when moist.



Thanks, Phil. Didn't release you had an advanced degree in all this. Do you have a link to your research? Would love to read it

Soaked the potting soil overnight, and the vermiculite, pieces of bark etc obligingly floated to the top, so they were easy to remove. Mineralizing the rest, and am now soaking the STS in the strained run-off to charge it with the organic fertilizers (worm castings) 

Yes, I'd read about Turface in several of the blogs. It's not as easy to find as STS, and the only reason I'd go to the extra hassle & expense of tracking it down was if they had it in black--but apparently they've discontinued that color. The STS should be fine--functionally it should be the same as Turface, just maybe not as uniform, no? 

Setting up the tank itself this weekend now that the lights have arrived. Will follow Jason's directions to newbies and start a new journal thread soon to document the progress--and hopefully get some more good advice.


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## Phil Edwards

Desert Pupfish said:


> Thanks, Phil. Didn't release you had an advanced degree in all this. Do you have a link to your research? Would love to read it
> 
> The STS should be fine--functionally it should be the same as Turface, just maybe not as uniform, no?


Unfortunately a vital piece of equipment failed mid-tissue digestion and I ended up losing an entire species worth of samples, which made the study nonpunishable. Thankfully, the school was kind enough to let me get away with a technical report rather than a proper thesis and journal publication(s). The gist was enriched top soil was far and away the best medium with nutrient enriched 60/20/20 Red Art Clay/Turface/Milled Sphagnum being the marginal best of the clay-based mixtures. In nearly every instance, the substrate was too thick and got heavily reduced/anaerobic so the plants (Potomogeton illinoiensis, Stuckinya pectinatus, and Val. americana) pretty much grew only in the 1" sand cap with very little root penetration into the soil/mixtures. After giving it a go myself and recommending it to a friend, we found out that the 50/50 soil fines/calcined clay worked really well for aquariums.

Any calcined clay product should work equally well for aquarium purposes. The very first substrate I used for my first high tech tank was a mix of calcined clay and pool filter sand. I ended up having to add the sand to add a bit of density to keep things from floating out of the clay and it worked surprisingly well.


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## ursamajor

Phil Edwards said:


> Unfortunately a vital piece of equipment failed mid-tissue digestion and I ended up losing an entire species worth of samples, which made the study nonpunishable. Thankfully, the school was kind enough to let me get away with a technical report rather than a proper thesis and journal publication(s). The gist was enriched top soil was far and away the best medium with nutrient enriched 60/20/20 Red Art Clay/Turface/Milled Sphagnum being the marginal best of the clay-based mixtures. In nearly every instance, the substrate was too thick and got heavily reduced/anaerobic so the plants (Potomogeton illinoiensis, Stuckinya pectinatus, and Val. americana) pretty much grew only in the 1" sand cap with very little root penetration into the soil/mixtures. After giving it a go myself and recommending it to a friend, we found out that the 50/50 soil fines/calcined clay worked really well for aquariums.
> 
> Any calcined clay product should work equally well for aquarium purposes. The very first substrate I used for my first high tech tank was a mix of calcined clay and pool filter sand. I ended up having to add the sand to add a bit of density to keep things from floating out of the clay and it worked surprisingly well.


Any chance you could share the report with us? I'd be fascinated to read it.


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## Phil Edwards

ursamajor said:


> Any chance you could share the report with us? I'd be fascinated to read it.


Sadly, it's unpublished. The only copies are at my uni and with the research facility I did the work at. I'm not even sure if I still have an electronic copy of the manuscript. The only stuff I know I've got for sure are pictures and the data folders. :*(


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