# Root tabs necessary with Aqua Soil?



## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

For crypts and Crinum etc, does anyone feel roottabs are necessary with Aqua Soil, or just overkill? 

On a side note, I was amazed at how fast some baby downoi has put out some new baby roots. Like a day or two. Because I pulled the Downoi out after a day or so when I added the second two bags of AS. They didn't have any roots when first planted less than two days earlier. I'm really impressed by that.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I do not see why you'd want to add more of the same to AS.

Just add it to the water column if you feel the urge, "more is better".

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

It totally depends on the plant. Not all plants are the same.

I have found root tabs make a night and day difference for many plants, especially when placed at the base of stem plants (including when Aqua Soil is used). For example, cabomba grew much fuller and thicker at the base, and flowered for the first time (and consistently afterwards) when placing a root tab at the base. ADA even makes two different root tab type products - Iron Bottom and Multi Bottom.

I have found however that ADA's Iron and Multi bottom don't seem to give as strong a result as Seachem Flourish Tabs. I have also just started trying out Tropica's Aquacare Plant Nutrition+ Capsules, which so far seem to be proving even better than Flourish Tabs. They are the first prill-type time release fertilizer product (similar to terrestrial products like Osmocote and Multicote) ever made for aquariums. Based on my testing so far, the charts Tropica provides seem entirely believable:


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

interesting....I use Osmocote almost exclusively for some of my terrestrials.
_*Do you guys eventually take the old tab up from the substrate or do you leave them there indefinitely to break down on their own eventually? I am always afraid of them coming up inthe the water column and poisoning my babies.*.._


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

There are many osmocoat test with aquatics done in year's past, not sure so many shy away today.........

It has some NH4.........generally from NH4NO3.
But small amounts should be fine.

I think they more begnine than Jobes certainly.
But they also dissolve slower, so you see less effect.

As far Flourish tabs being better etc and adding substrate ferts to the soil etc, you need to have a control to say much about that.

So if you add 2ppm of Fe to the substrate, you also need to do the same to the water column.

It's the combination of the two that gives the results to say, adding AS + X substrate amendment + water column => yields the best growth.

There needs to be a synergistic effect on the plant with and without the water column dosing as well, other wise you have not controlled for it.

This is a very common mistake but not one that's impossible to over come with a few methods that do account for that.

One is making sure that the water column is non limiting and that the CO2 is in very good shape, another is the lighting, low, med, high, very high lighting has a lot of effect/impact of nutrient demand and CO2 demand.

I tend to use very high lighting when test because the response times are faster, uptake rates are increased and differences can be noted faster. 

I can compare sand and then AS in this context.
Or:

FB and ADA AS
EC and Flourite
ADA AS with or without powersand
ADA AS with/without Tabs

and so on..........

This makes the addition of such products on their merits alone in the root zone specifically isolated to say something about them without confounding factors such as the water column.

If you are not good about the water column nutrient levels, how can you tell?
How can one time frame be comapred when you are not sure what the water column differences may have been during that time?

How many folks have growth/algae issues and also try and do such test?


Being good with the water column and maintaining good non limiting conditions fior the test peroid is a lot of work if you want to be critical with it.
I don't do that for more than about 8 week time blocks.
But most folks *never* do it or are unable to do it.:icon_sad: 
Many are still having issues with their plants and anytime they see better growth, or algae related issues, they attribute the correlation, not the causation.

You need a test that will answer your question, not observations and correlation alone. Not to dis those, but a test with some good assumptions will answer a lot more and give you much more confidence.
You'll get ahead, save $, fix other folk's problems and waste less time as a result. Then you spend that time a scaping.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

I don't use Osmocote (for terestrials) because it doesn't have traces.

It is incredibly hard for the average joe to buy the type of Osmocote Pro or Multicote that contains a full helping of traces (including boron). They just aren't sold anywhere you can simply place an order for them. It's real easy to look up the info, but impossible if you want to actually buy it.

http://www.scottsprohort.com/_documents/tech_sheets/H5146OsmocotePro.pdf

http://www.sungro.com/files/professional/Product_Brochures/Multicote 12_17-6-14+ME Literature.pdf


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

If folks are interested, I can easily get some being in an Argonomy Dept at a huge Ag school and the middle of the farmland.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Oh my that was easy:

Yardiac.com - Osmocote Pro 50 # Bag

130$ for 50lbs and they ship!

"Tom's secret miracle substrate ferts!"

You'll note that 50% of the nutrients are gone after 2 months, and with aquatic systems, the transport will be even more rapid.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Oh my that was easy:
> 
> Yardiac.com - Osmocote Pro 50 # Bag


I didn't want to get the thread too far off topic so I didn't explain further. Osmocote Pro comes in seven types and 21 formulas.

http://www.scottsprohort.com/products/controlled_release_fertilizers/osmocote_pro.cfm

There are a few places that sell at most 3 or 4 formulas to the average joe. No one sells the formula that contains the full helping of traces plus boron.

The link you provided is a typical example. They only sell two formulas, each of a different type. Both are missing boron and molybdenum.

http://www.scottsprohort.com/_documents/tech_sheets/H5101_Osmocote_Pro.pdf

http://www.scottsprohort.com/_documents/tech_sheets/H5147OsmocoteProIBDU.pdf

The only type that contains eight traces including boron and molybdenum (also linked in my previous post):

http://www.scottsprohort.com/_documents/tech_sheets/H5146OsmocotePro.pdf



plantbrain said:


> You'll note that 50% of the nutrients are gone after 2 months, and with aquatic systems, the transport will be even more rapid.


Again, there are 21 formulas, all with different release rates and it is also dependant on soil temperature. Check their PDF's for full specs.


I would rather use Multicote for my terrestrials. This is even more impossible for the average joe to get ahold of.

http://www.sungro.com/files/professional/Product_Brochures/Multicote 12_17-6-14+ME Literature.pdf

None of these products contain calcium.

I don't know what the analysis of the Tropica Plant Nutrition+ capsules are, Tropica does not provide them on their site or on the package. (Which seems to defy their previous mission statement of "we believe aquarists should know what they are putting in their tanks".)

I would NOT recommend using Osmocote or Multicote in aquariums. They work by osmosis and are designed for use in soil that fluctuates between wet and dry. They are not intended to be submersed in water. I have no firsthand knowledge, but I suspect Tropica has altered the design of their prill to work better underwater. Tropica says they will last 6-12 months. I don't believe they would knowingly or purposely make this figure up.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Have you ever seen either B or a Mo deficiency in any aquarium plant you know of for certain? I don't know of anyone that ever has for either of these.
Fish food and plant waste alone provide plenty relevant to the tiny needs.
The main traces used up/often in low, potentially limiting concentrations are found in the other products.

I'm aware of various release rates, but these are not particularly applicable to hydrosoils.............this must be tested in each tank, but in general, the release rates are much faster due to more reducing conditions in water logged conditions than they were designed for.
Temps at the 75-85F ranges are good.
Tanks tend to be fairly stable there vs farm soils. 
These temps and water based conditions will speed things up.
soem folks used tiny plastic cap jars with lids and poked holes in them and filled with Osmocoat and would place these down there every 3-4 months.
The ferts would slowly leak out.

Topping off for some traces/macros on occasion in the water column will help any method you chose though, and then most of the tiny traces you are worrying about are not particularly important, even at 5-8w/gal and tons of CO2.

I mean you can make a big deal about it if you really think it's important, but I think you'd be hard pressed to show it's really significant unless you don't have any fish and also never want to add any ferts to the water either for months on end.

They are used in very trace amounts, Mo is so low it's not even funny.
B can come from decomposing older leaves, fish food/waste etc.

Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, those are the main ones.
Add some flourish once a week or two if you are worried or some boric acid, it's cheap at the pharm.

I'd love to see anyone show a Mo deficiency in a submersed aquatic plant.
Yikes!
You had better have a kick booty lab and very clean methods.
I would not want to tackle that one with a ten foot pole.
they did it for Rice, but that's the only one I know of, Taro maybe, but not aware of a study done on that one.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

take two....

Do you guys eventually take the old tab up from the substrate or do you leave them there indefinitely to break down on their own eventually? I am always afraid of them coming up inthe the water column and poisoning my babies...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Simply vacuuming the section deeply will remove any left overs.
The main issue is NH4 at low levels.

Carbon Zeolite etc will help prior, water changes,, main concern is really algae, the levels tend not to be high enough to harm most fish tanks.

The lowered O2 might, so a water change will help thereafter.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Personally, I place the root tab product directly underneath each plant or plant group, and leave it there for the "life" of the plant group.

I don't trim the tops of stem plants. When they reach the water surface, I pull them out, then replant the tops. This is when I also will remove any unused root tabs.

So to answer your question fresh_newby, yes, I remove them, but only when removing plants for replanting. Just my personal preferance.

I don't bother trying to "hunt" for any broken off pieces in the gravel bed.

They only time I do a complete tank teardown and gravel vacuum is when my two male + one female ancistrus produce so many offspring I have to get them all out of there. Last time I removed over 80 of them.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

interesting way of doing it thanks. I ask because I lost a couple of my panda corys as a result of a deep vacuuming...I think I rustled up some old root tab and the low [email protected] tension and the small spike in NH$ for a bottomdweeler may have been the culprit....thanks!


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Didn't know this thread came back. I recently got some rootabs from Aquariumplants.com for about a fifth of the cost of Seachems. I had read from one of the mods that they worked terrifically. Too early to tell, especially with all the upheavals my poor 90 gallon has with new Aqua Soil and replanting etc. But they "Look" nutritious... LOL. 

Hypancistrus, good to know about using tabs with AS. I have a lot of root feeders so I'll put some under pronto. Thanks.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

I understand that Aquasoil is a semi-baked clay with a strong negative charge. This is why it lowers GH and KH so much. So the Aqua Soil should "grab" the nutrients from the tabs and keep them from getting into the water column.

ADA recommends daily dosing of all fertilizers, including traces, potassium and in some cases, nitrates and phosphates. I surmise that these nutrients will spend some time in the water column, but within 12-24 hours, will end up in the Aqua Soil substrate bed.


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## kekon (Nov 2, 2006)

Regarding "Plant Nutrition+" i calculated the daily dose of nitrogen (dividing recommended dose by 7) is 0.127 ppm NH4 and 0.44 ppm NO3. It's a good dose and plants love it. Small amounts of NH4 (up to 0.5 ppm NH4 daily) don't cause any algae blooms. It's a myth. I was adding 0.5 ppm NH4 for several weeks in a row and never had any algae issues.


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## defdac (Dec 28, 2003)

> Small amounts of NH4 (up to 0.5 ppm NH4 daily) don't cause any algae blooms. It's a myth.


=) Watch out for Tom Barr.. 

How often do you do wc with that dose?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Hypancistrus said:


> ...I don't know what the analysis of the Tropica Plant Nutrition+ capsules are, Tropica does not provide them on their site or on the package. (Which seems to defy their previous mission statement of "we believe aquarists should know what they are putting in their tanks".)...


I can help with this part.

I just got a box of the Plant Nutrition+ capsules. The analysis is not listed on the box, but the opening page in the directions has their declaration. It says:
N - 15.0%
P - 4.0%
K - 7.5%
Mg - 1.8%
Fe - 0.4%
Mn - 0.06%
Cu - 0.05%
Mo - 0.02%
Zn - 0.0015%

Left C


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Hypancistrus said:


> I understand that Aquasoil is a semi-baked clay with a strong negative charge. This is why it lowers GH and KH so much. So the Aqua Soil should "grab" the nutrients from the tabs and keep them from getting into the water column.
> 
> ADA recommends daily dosing of all fertilizers, including traces, potassium and in some cases, nitrates and phosphates. I surmise that these nutrients will spend some time in the water column, but within 12-24 hours, will end up in the Aqua Soil substrate bed.


To answer your question, Betowess I would concur with Hypancistrus' post. My experience with both "Original, Type I" Amazonia Aquasoil and now with "Type II" is that you can grow pretty much any true aquatic plant without out any additional substrate fertilization (except perhaps swords and other heavy root feeders). Indeed, I barely dose any liquid ferts at all and my plant growth literally explodes under high light and proper CO2 levels. AS is absolutely the best substrate I have ever used...period.


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