# Converted to CFLs...



## Absolut Talent (Feb 5, 2014)

the watts isnt what they are putting out, its what they consume while on. The lumens is the output/brightness of the actual light.

a 13watt CFL is supposed to be the same output as a 60watt incandescent bulb, but consumes less than a 1/3rd of the energy to accomplish that. 

But comparing the CFL vs the Satellite (assuming you had the 18-24" fixture), it consumed 18watt, but output 600 lumens. So while it used more energy, it seems to output less light. But then the spectrum also comes into play. Not sure the spread on the CFL, but the Satellite you had a full spectrum light. 

And heat. More energy = more heat. 18watts creates more heat than 13watt, but look at the surface area. 18 watts of heat spread over 18" of space (length of the fixture) vs 13watts of heat spread over a (im assuming) 3" diameter space. Not to mention leds do run slightly cooler than CFLs while operating, but both still get hot.


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

The CFLs are rated at 6500K on the color temperature specturm, which I assume would make them full spectrum also. I have read that the Lumens rating is strictly what is perceived by human eyes, and that the Lumens rating doesn't really translate into being applicable to plants requirements. I have read that the medium light plants, such as the Ludwigia Repens, and the Dwarf Hair Grass, require at least 2-3 watts per gallon, and 3-5 watts per gallon for really optimum results, especiallly with regard to "high light" plant requirements. 
I think that the Ludwigia Repens and the Dwarf Hair Grass are considered "medium light" plants. And, the Anubias, Java Fern, Java Moss, the Marimo Ball (which I believe is a variety of Java Moss) and Pennywort are all considered "low light" plants.

I realize that using watts per gallon is old school, and that it isn't really the best way to determine the output of a fixture, and that I should be analyzing PAR and PUR values for the fixture. But, I used watts per gallon to get in the ballpark since I couldn't determine the PAR/PUR for the Current 18 Watt Satellite Fixture, or the CFLs. 

Anyway, using what is these days considered a Passey Method, WPG, I suspected that the Ludwigia and the Dwarf Hair Grass were being supplied too little light from the 18 Watt LED fixture, only about 1.2-1.8 watts per gallon, depending on the positioning of the individual plants. I am not sure how water depth factors into the equation either. But, with it being in a 10 gallon tank, I assume that's not much of an issue with regard to light penetration for either fixture.

But, using the CFLs, it would seem to me that they're receiving much more than even "High Light" Plants require, which has me a little concerned, 12 Watts Per Gallon of full spektrum. Not sure of the PAR/PAR on the CFL fixture either, but it just seems like I might be pushing it, assuming PAR/PUR is also proprotionally high. 

Can I over-dose the light with the CFLs, and introduce too many watts per gallon, too much PAR/PUR, assuming it would also translate to being a relatively high PAR/PUR value using 60 Watt (13W) CFLs?


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

You're right about PAR being the accurate measure of light for plants. However, PAR data for CFL generally isn't well recorded, there are quite a bit of variations given the fixtures and positioning available. 

2 X 13w CFLs sounds about right though... you can/should tweak the lighting depending on plant response rather than aiming for a static value. Different values work for different setups
I use 24w CFLs on my 3-5 gals, though that's quite high lighting for non-CO2 tanks


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

Yes, I was thinking that 2 x 13 watt CFLs would even be high for my 10 gallon tank, so I can see that your 3-5 gallon would be quite a lot of wattage, and probably a pretty high relative PAR/PUR value for a 3-5 gallon size tank, assuming there is a correlation between the wattage and the PAR/PUR values that the wattage generates in your particular tank. As you said, the PAR/PUR is difficult to ascertain because the environment varies in each individual tank, plus I don't have the equipment to even take PAR value readings. 

I was just at Lowes a while ago, and noticed that Sylvania also makes a 5 Watt version (25Watt output) of the same mini CFL bulb, 6500K (full spectrum). But, the two of them together would only produces about 540 Lumens, verses a standard florescent bulb (6500K), which produces around 1170 Lumens. So, if I were to switch to the 5 Watt version, I'm thinking that I wouldn't be gaining much over a standard florescent bulb, and of course, the lighting in the tank, visually, to the human eye, wouldn't be nearly as comparable. 

Have you been using your CFLs for a long time, and how has it been working for you with respect to plant growth? As you suggested, I'm going to closely observe the performance of the 13 Watt CFLs, to see how the plants react, and more importantly, so it doesn't burn down the house :tongue: I put the bulbs in what was intended to be the compartment that was for the florescent bulb. But, I might consider completely removing the florescent bulb housing that they're mounted in, and mounting the CFLs directly inside the cover itself, thereby giving the CFLs a little more room to disapate heat through the slits in the top of the cover. 

How are your CFLs mounted, and do you find the amount of heat they create to be of any concern?


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

I use them in a desk lamp; so the heat dissipates more easily than in a hood.. 

I've used them over the years; and sell small nano tanks as a hobby...
The desk lamp gives good adjust-ability and the CFLs come in a wide range of K rating etc. So I like the combination a lot 

All these are low tech/non CO2 tanks with 24w CFLs :




























I've been encouraging people with small tanks to go the CFL desk lamp route due to the low cost and adjustability


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Vertical CFL bulbs put out virtually 2x the light that horizontal CFL bulbs do.
One CFL bulb in a Brooder dome type fixture gives room for the heat to escape
and is just as much light.
Med light is generally considered to be 35-50 PAR but low is up to 30 PAR.
So what do you call that light between 30-35 ? LOL
http://current-usa.com/aquarium-led-lights/satellite-led-fixtures/satellite-freshwater-led-plus/
If you are talking injected CO2, people on here report that DHG does fine in that amount of light. The only info I got from a recent thread about the Ludwigia is that it needs to be closer than 6" from the light before you see any noticeable growth.
Co2 was not mentioned because I stated that I didn't have any added CO2.
I have two 10g tanks. I have native "collected" DHG in both and in the one/w the highest light it is doing poor. That tank has aprx 50 PAR @ close to 7 hrs in two segments. 9 to 12 and then 2-6P. This is from one T5 bulb in a fixture rated @ 100
Par @ 12" and the fixture is 12" from the sub.
The other tank has one T8 bulb @ 10 straight hrs but unknown PAR. Hoppy says depending on the effectiveness of the reflector it CAN be as high as 60 PAR.
But I think it's more like 30 PAR on this one.
Don't know what to call it so I'll steal a term from lawn grass and say the DHG in this tank has a couple of new "blades" on them and no signs of deteriorating while what is in the T5 tank has lots of deteriorating. Brown blades. But the two tanks have different subs. The one which has good growth has Laterite under Eco for the sub. Both get the same ferts. Just a slight bit more in the T5 tank.
The Ludwigia I have in each tank has shown no growth or deterioration, buthas grown lots of those white side roots.


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

Everybody, thanks very much for your replies and experiences...

I also have an LED emitter style flood light coming via Amazon.com, a 30 Watt, 6500K, 2700 Lumens...

I'm thinking that I'll observe the performance of the CFLs that I just converted, and also test them against the 30 Watt LED emitter style flood light suspended over the tank. 

The LED emitter style flood light would be a better presentation of the light than the CFLs, more like what Xiaozhuang is doing, and it would improve the presentation of the light, a horizontal presentation as suggested by Raymond S. 

When I get ready to arrange the LED emitter style flood light over the 10 gallon tank, can anyone advise a recommended height over the top surface of the tank? It is going to produce 2700 Lumens, which blows everything away that I've played with so far. It would seem to me that with that kind of Lumenation, that I could have it a couple of feet over the top of the tank, to allow for easier access to the tank, rather than having it just a few inches above the tank. Can anyone advise?


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

You can start at 1 feet and tweak from there. Even for LEDs, the efficiencies vary quite a bit, so one 30w LED may have significantly more PAR than another 30w LED...


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

The tank where I have these is a 10 gallon tank, with (2) 6500K CFL "mini micro" light bulbs oriented vertically in the light chamber of a standard tank cover/light fixture, in the area where the florescent light would normal go. After a week or more, the heat generated by these bulbs, while unpleasant to touch for too long, doesn't seem to be any problem at all for the housing to handle. 

I'm almost finished building a 22-1.4" wide version, but this time I used (3) 25 Watt mini micros for my 20H tank, and I have these oriented horizontally inside a piece of aluminum guttering with end caps that I purchased from Lowes. I used reflective foil tape on the inside of the guttering for a reflector. I haven't tried it yet because I still have to put the plug on the end of the cord so I can plug it in the wall socket. Some in the forums, and on You Tube, have mentioned that the light energy from horizontally oriented bulbs is more efficient than what I have on the 10 gallon tank, oriented vertically inside the chamber where the florescent bulb would normally go. The CFL bulbs I used in this newest fixture are also "mini micros," 6500K, but they seem even shorter in length than the 25 Watt, 6500K, CFLs that I used in the 10 gallon tank fixture. 

The one on the 10 gallon tank has been there for a week or so, and I'm seeing little light green spurts of growth on the java moss, and the plants in this tank actually look more vibrant than the ones in my other 10 gallon tank, which has a commercially produced "Current Satellite Freshwater Plus," 18 Watt LED light, the one with the fancy LED lights that change between red, white, blue, purple leds to simulate partly cloudy, sunny, cloudy, lightening storms, programmable, with timer, etc...

So, it looks like even the most basic CFL arrangement will out perform the relatively expensive LED fixture, based on the growth I'm seeing. Both are on the exact length of time each day, around 10-12 hours a day.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I am curious to see the fixture/w the two CFL bulbs.
I just can't get a good picture of it in my mind.


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

*CFL Plant Lighting...*

Here is the Perfecto Light fixture with the florescent light bulb removed, and (2) CFL standard bases installed. The CFL bulbs are 6500K mini micro bulbs that I got from Lowes. In this fixture, they are oriented vertically using a porcelain standard bulb base. The bulbs are each 25 watts (x2 = 50 Watts), and 270 lumens each (540 lumens total). They are 6500K, and should cover the full light spectrum for plants, where you also get the blue and red light color temperatures that are needed for growing plants. Theoretically, this fixture delivers 5-watts per gallon of light (10-gallon tank), and should perform quite well, even with plants that demand an exceedingly high level of light. But, because they're oriented vertically, their efficiency is probably not as good as if they were oriented horizontally in the housing. 























I made another one of these for my 20 gallon tank, using (3) 6500K CFL bulbs. But, I wanted to orient them horizontally, since I have read that the bulbs oriented horizontally are more efficient with respect to light energy. So, I oriented them using a different kind of bulb base than I have on the 10 gallon fixture that only uses (2) bulbs oriented vertically. The bulb base on the 20 gallon fixture allows me to orient the bulbs horizontally so that they shine down into the tank. I used a 10' piece of gutter, cut down to a 22-1/4" width to fit the 20 gallon tank. I epoxied some gutter end caps on it, used some reflective HVAC foil tape for a reflector, wired it all up using lamp cord, then connected it up to an inline on/off switch. Then, I painted the exposed hot 110V terminals on the bulb bases with liquid tape for insulation/safety. The gutter sits right where the Perfecto florescent light fixture housing would normally sit on the Perfecto Cover, and there is even a piece of glass between the gutter light fixture and the surface of the water. The glass partition is part of the overall Perfecto Cover that you normally use with the Perfecto Light Fixture sitting on top of the cover. Only with the gutter design, the gutter light fixture sits on top of the cover instead of the florescent light fixture that came with the cover. 























By using the Gutter Fixture on the 20 gallon tank, instead of modifying the existing factory light fixture like I did on the 10 gallon, I can still use the florescent light fixture if I need it as a spare. With the 10 gallon conversion, I converted the light fixture housing itself to hold the (2) CFL bulbs, and I would have to disassemble the modifications to the light fixture to go back to using a florescent bulb. I like the (3) bulb 20 gallon fixture that uses the piece of gutter because I can orient the bulbs horizontally, which is better lighting, and I also still have the 20 gallon florescent light fixture/housing, which has not been modified, just in case I want to use a florescent light fixture again in the same spot where the gutter fixture is now. It also occurs to me that you could hang this gutter fixture from the ceiling, suspend it some way on chains or something, over an open aquarium if you prefer, or if a person didn't already have a cover it can sit on.

I think the cost of building the gutter light fixture was about $27.00, with the bases being the bulk of the cost ($10.28 for 3 bulb bases at Lowes). And, I can make about 3 or 4 of these light fixtures out of a 10' piece of gutter, depending on the tank size. So, the economies of scale make it pretty economical if you have other tanks that you want fixtures on. Of course, the bulbs aren't cheap, $4.98 each. But, you have to have bulbs anyway...and, if you believe the advertising, they're supposed to last for about 8-10 years. The three CFLs should be putting out about 75 watts, well within the theoretical 3 watts per gallon for lush plant growth. I am also considering a fourth bulb base, which would boost the output to 5 Watts per gallon on the 20 gallon tank. But, I don't currently have any plants that require that kind of light in order to flourish. The three bulbs should be producing about 800 lumens. I've read that it isn't so much a matter of lumens, but more a matter of actual PAR/PUR values in light that are penetrating the water and reaching the bottom of the aquarium, which requires special equipment to measure. So, I am hoping that the CFS's are doing the job. They haven't been in place long enough to form any conclusions about their performance, but I am hopeful that they're putting out what's required to be successful growing the plants I have in the aquarium (anubias, pennywort, java moss, java fern, and ludwigia repens). 

I am considering spray painting the gutter dark brown so it will be more athstetically pleasing with respect to the color of the aquarium cover...




Raymond S. said:


> I am curious to see the fixture/w the two CFL bulbs.
> I just can't get a good picture of it in my mind.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Glad to see people considering CFL, it seem to be more popular in Euro/Asia than here. One of the oldest solution to aquarium lighting, not the prettiest set up though. 








Using x2 CFL









The light drops off a lot for taller tanks. And tin foil makes a horrible reflector, better to find a white dome fixture. 

You did a good job on retro fitting your lights, Quiz Cat. Have you taken a look at desk top lamp fixtures? They are cheap with no need for tin foil.


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

Nice tanks FlyingHellFish, and Xiaozhuang!!!

Yes, I think that for the 10 gallon tank, or smaller, the desk lamp idea is a very good one. I haven't taken the time to see what's available out there in a desklamp that has sockets for a couple of CFLs for my 10 gallon, but I intend to do it as soon as possible.

FlyingHellFish, I can't tell from the photo how you have it suspended over the tank. Did you mount a desktop light to the wall, or suspend it over the tank somehow? Is that a 10 gallon tank in the photos?

I actually started playing with the idea of retrofiting the existing florescent light fixture, and building the gutter fixture, because I volunteered to build an LED light for my grandson. 

I intended to begin experimenting with an existing light fixture like what my grandson has for his 20 gallon tank, which is a Perfection Brand florescent light fixture, the same as the one I have on both the 10 gallon and 20 gallon tanks, one of which I already converted for my 10 gallon tank using (2) CFLs, and I went with the gutter CFL design for my 20 gallon tank. But, for my grandson, I was going to simply convert his Perfection light fixture to LEDs, not CFLs. But, now my grandson says he wants his LED light to be in the gutter design.

I had been initially focused on experimenting with LEDs because they're a lot more versatile and impressive to a young kid, since you can vary them with the controller, etc...And, I still intend to make my grandson's light an LED light, with the fancy controller, etc...

But, I got a little side tracked because once I began to research what the CFLs were capable of, I began experimenting with CFLs first. So, I built both the fixtures that you see in my former post, one converted to (2) CFLs, and one using the gutter method for (3) CFLs. I did so to gain some experience, as kind of a precurser to building an LED light for my grandson. 

Next, I am going to build that LED light fixture for my Grandson, and I should have it finished by the end of the week. My grandson has seen the gutter fixture I built for the CFLs, and he wants one like the gutter design I used for the CFLs, only with LEDs, because he would like to keep the florescent light as a back up. My grandson doesnt have plants in his 20 gallon aquarium, so it should be very easy using the LEDs, which I know will generate good looking light for his tank, since there aren't any live plants to take into account. All I need from the LEDs is a lot of BLING, which I know the LEDs will deliver.

But, I will definitely also be building an LED fixture for both my 10 and 20 gallon tanks as well, and I will build them with plants in mind when I select the LEDs, probably using the gutter idea because the cost is very cheap since I already have most of the materials. Later, once the experiments are complete with respect to how the LED lights grow plants, I may do something more elaborate with respect to switching from the cheaper looking gutter design, to something a little more professional looking, perhaps a piece of aluminum U-Channel with the LEDs inside the U-Shape. It remains to be seen, and is just in the conceptual stages right now...

Half the fun is the experimenting...but, it takes time to conclude whether these lights actually acheive decent plant growth or not, and I still have to invest some more time with my CFLs to form any conclusion about how they're actually doing versus LEDs. 

With regard to your comment about the foil being a poor reflector, FlyingHellFish, I wonder if perhaps the inside of the gutter could be spray painted with a "bright white," and if that would offer a better reflective surface for the CFLs than the foil tape. It would probably be an easy experiment once I have a bench mark to test against, once I've determined how the current designs are growing plants using the foil tape reflector. The heat isn't really much of a factor with the CFLs versus the paint, plus I know they make a wide selection of paints that will very easily handle any kind of heat generated by CFLs. Of course, heat from LEDs is even less of a consideration than the minimal heat generated by CFLs. 





FlyingHellFish said:


> Glad to see people considering CFL, it seem to be more popular in Euro/Asia than here. One of the oldest solution to aquarium lighting, not the prettiest set up though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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