# 5 weeks in and here comes the algae!!!



## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

I thought I had everything going well, until last week.......



81 DEG F
KH 3
GH 4
CO2 30 ppm-ish
lights 4 wpg 10 hrs
PPS PRO ferts



I have had a few things that have been added / changed recently.



Three weeks ago, I changed my lights from 2.4 to 4.0 wpg.
Completed "fishess cycle"
Added fish, 2 5" angelfish, 3 GBR, 2 bleeding heart tetras.
Aeration for fish.
The lights were added 3 weeks ago.


The fishless cycle was completed using an ammonium dosage of 1 ppm twice daily monitoring and added ammonia as necessary. 



I added the fish over a 7 day period and added the aeration to keep a sufficient concentration of O2.


The algae is a green and hairy / stringy, plus some green sludgy stuff on the walls.


I turned the lights to 2 wpg and 8 hrs and 50% WC weekly.


What should I do?


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## larams67 (Jan 24, 2006)

Is the tank grown in yet? Maybe you don't have enough plant mass yet to use up the nutrients. 

I'm just taking a guess. Hopefully some of the more knowledgeable posters will have an answer.


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## NeonFlux (Apr 10, 2008)

For your kind of setup, I think PPS Pro isn't going to do well, I believe. With all the high tech equipment you have, you should go with EI dosing.. Sounds like you may be going through some nutrient deficiencies, too much light, poor water movement inside the tank, or maybe poor co2 distribution and diffusion.. The temperature of the tank looks pretty high to me. Get it to around 76-78 if possible. Some plants like it when it is slightly cooler, but some can adapt, however it's best you remain on the cooler side so the metabolism of the plants aren't so high.. Also, you say you provide aeration for your fish? Not while the co2 is on, right? Make sure you don't have a huge ripple on the surface, because it's pretty much degassing all of your co2, unless it is very very minimal, then that is all right.. 

So lower the temp, provide some water movement using some water pumps, make sure you don't have a big water agitation on the surface, dose EI, get a good diffuser put a water pump above it so the co2 could flush out and get to plants correctly, put in more plants, and perhaps lower your photoperiod to about 7 hours. Good luck finding the balance! Have to experiment.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

The tank is 30 to 40% filled in at the moment. I've been steadily increasing my plant population through propagation. 

I have another order I'm waiting on, but that's just a few more plants.

I will probably up my frequency of WC's.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

Aeration is 24/7. 

My water flow is pretty good I think. I recently added a Hydor Koralia 250 gph wave maker.

If things persist I will look into EI.


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## NeonFlux (Apr 10, 2008)

Lab_Man, honestly, I think aeration would be best turned on during the night, and co2 off during the night. Provide just a slight ripple on the surface using a wavemaker, and I think that'll be enough to make sure O2 isn't depleted completely, so your fish can breathe. 



> I think aeration would be best turned on during the night, and co2 off during the night.


Oh yeah, when the lights goes off as well, then turn on aeration.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

Neonflux, 

I'll turn the temp to 78
Turn aeration on only at night.
Reduce light on time to 7 hrs at 2 wpg until algae goes away then 4.0
I'll look into EI

Is there anything I can do about the algae I currently have?


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## The Trigger (May 9, 2012)

Wait a second. Forget wpg rule. It's an outdated rule. It also depends what kind of algae you're getting. Different types of algae are caused by different things. Sounds like you're experiencing green hair algae. I think most people will agree that most algae are linked to both light and Co2 more than anything else. So my guess is that your lighting is too much and your co2 is too low. You're doing the right thing by cutting your lighting back. How are you measuring your co2? Drop checker? How sure are you that it's around 30ppm? Sounds like the aeration is off-gassing your co2 and that you're not actually getting the 30ppm you think you are


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## NeonFlux (Apr 10, 2008)

Lab_Man said:


> Neonflux,
> 
> I'll turn the temp to 78
> Turn aeration on only at night.
> ...


Sounds good! Hopefully we shall see some improvements later on.

By the way, to remove the algae, you could try manually, but you might make a pretty big mess. I suggest you overdose two times flourish excel at night (or DIY Glut with same excel ratio mix) amount for your tank, if you have any at hand. Be cautious not to overdo it especially over x3... x3 might be okay, but just to be on the safe side, just go with x2 for now imo. It may help melt the algae away, however it can potentially also melt your plants too, if you own plants that are sensitive to it like val plants, and anacharis.. just want to point that out. So dose with care. . You will see algae-removing results from overdosing excel when the algae turns reddish white and then gone. Wish you the best.


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## Aqguy (Oct 30, 2013)

Stop the pps pro thats what growing your algae


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

The Trigger said:


> Wait a second. Forget wpg rule. It's an outdated rule. It also depends what kind of algae you're getting. Different types of algae are caused by different things. Sounds like you're experiencing green hair algae. I think most people will agree that most algae are linked to both light and Co2 more than anything else. So my guess is that your lighting is too much and your co2 is too low. You're doing the right thing by cutting your lighting back. How are you measuring your co2? Drop checker? How sure are you that it's around 30ppm? Sounds like the aeration is off-gassing your co2 and that you're not actually getting the 30ppm you think you are


I am arriving at 30 ppm based on charts that I have read that correlate KH and pH to ppm. 

http://scaquariacom.ipage.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=121&start=10

According to the chart, KH =3 and a pH of 6.4 to 6.6 = 23 - 36 ppm CO2.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

Aqguy said:


> Stop the pps pro thats what growing your algae


Please explain why its growing my algae.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

OK, I looked and everything in the EI is contained in the PPS PRO pack. How do I dose for my 55 gallon mid planted tank?


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

http://calc.petalphile.com/

I checked this calculator and based on this calculator:

KN03 2.546 G
KH2PO4 387mg
K2SO4 3.48g
CSM+B 1.594 g

I need to add this 2 to 4 times per week.

Is this right?


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## NeonFlux (Apr 10, 2008)

Yep! That is right.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

Ok, then I'll dose macros today and traces tomorrow. Then I adopt an every other day schedule from then on. 

I have read that wpg is antiquated and PAR is more accurate but I do not have a PAR meter. So as a point of reference, let's use wpg. Should I keep 4.0 wpg at 6 hours or 2.0 wpg for 6 hours? I understand the concept of starving the algae, but aren't I starving the plants? Or is it that the plants have a larger reserve and the algae dies off first?

I'm contemplating putting my plecos in the tank.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

What is glut?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I do not think EI is or any fert routine is really going to solve the issue here, you have too few plants, and the tank is new and you assume the CO2 is correct. EI is good if you want to rule out a fert limitation.

But you do not have enough plants to do that for a while.

CO2 is the big factor, never assume anything about it. 
I think the pH drop is perhaps the better method for measuring the CO2. Start with the pH/KH chart, then see where the pH is going right before the lights come on and the CO2 is started to be added.

start with 1.00 full pH drop. Watch closely for algae, plant and fish responses.
After 1 weeks or so, if you do not see new good growth on the plant,s then add a bit more CO2.

New tank advice: do 50-80% water changes every 2-3 days for the 1st 4-8 weeks. After, maybe 1-2 week if you muck around in the tank, have a lot of fish etc, higher light etc. 1x week generally........you can certainly extend this out for lower light and less demanding plants.

Algae at the moment: Add more plant slater, and after you fix the CO2, water change issues, then consider algaefix, I hope you do not have shrimp, because that will kill them also. Angels will eat all your shrimp anyway. 

Once all that's done, then you can focus on ferts more, but PPS is fine for now. EI adds the same things, just more, but you can add more of one, or less of the other depending on the tank. I never used flowery language or took other folk's work and claimed it as my own to promote a method however. A method has issues if you need to do that to promote it. But adding less ferts than EI, which by definition a maximal dose for any tank, should obviously work and the lower ranges that pps suggest grade into what EI modifications do. PMDD is more the actual method with a little PO4 tossed in which predates the method by a good 5-8 years. It's nearly identical in fact.

EI or progenters came from PMDD about 1996 or thereabouts. 95% was PMDD but just simplified a bit and relied on water changes rather than test kits. I added PO4 to the mix once we figured it was not an algae promoter, I've yet to find any credible evidence that ferts over dosing causes algae within a wide range. Most seasoned vets can use the plants and algae to gauge dosing and do things like reduce water changes(I do on some tanks, but not others). But telling newbies to underdose and not do water changes is bad advice frankly.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Lab_Man said:


> What is glut?


Gutaraldehyde, the ingredient in Excel.
Bushy nose plecos, BNP's, small babies, say 4-6 would do well for glass algae and any on the wood. 

They will not control Green hair algae though and any fish or other critter will eat the Angels or the angels will eat them.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

Prior to CO2 coming on pH 7.4. Prior to lights pH 6.6


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## NeonFlux (Apr 10, 2008)

Oh yeah, Lab, one more thing.. turn on co2 2-3 hours before lights go on, so co2 builds up in the tank initially nicely, and then, turn co2 off one hour before lights go out.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

Thanks Neon, yes that has been the procedure. Four hours before and an hour before off. 

Things were going so well until I added the fish and the aeration.

Now I'm trying to get things into balance. 

The weather is so cold here that adding plants is probably not an option for a couple months. I just got my last shipment of plants today. They were all mush.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

I removed all the fish to another tank.

One less thing to worry about while I try to get this under control.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I can tell from your journal which light you had, but would you be more exact about what you have now in both fixture and bulbs ?
You made a statement which leeds me to believe that you are considering believing
that the fish have something to do/w this algae.
"Things were going so well until I added the fish and the aeration."
The 4WPG plus a little of the ferts are THE REASON for the algae.
The only connection the fish have to it is the fact that fish food(which started after you added the fish...granted)contains Phosphorus which increased the level of it in
your tank. That being one of if not the primary foods for algae, it may help to drop
the level of KH2PO4 by about 10-15%.
But till you drop the WPG you will have little hope of keeping out algae. That "dream tank" you have the picture of may tolorate 4WPG without algae...but not yours.
There is not even a 5% chance that the amount of plants you have can use up all the ferts you are using. All the EI recommendations say "for a heavilly planted tank".
Almost everything suggested so far has been temporary measures that will remove the algae but it will return just as soon as you go back to the schedual you have now which includes way too much ferts for the amount of plants you have and the 4WPG of light. But it may work for you as you might have a different way of applying it.
So do what has been suggested and if you go back to what you are doing now and the algae comes back...well. But please let us know how this works.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

I got it off ebay, so I can't link it. Suffice it to say that it's a t5 HO 4 foot 6 bulb (6500k ) fixture. It can be operated in the 2,4 or 6 bulb modes. 

The only thing that I changed on my system was the lights at first.

Lights went from 2.3 wpg to 4.0 wpg. I kept everything the same before I added the fish. Tank was clear and plants growing like crazy.

I operated like that for 3 weeks while I was cycling my tank. 

Then I added fish a couple at a time over a week period.

Then I added aeration, over the next week green haired algae took over.

I read that algae spores are in every aquarium but if they don't have access to ammonia they won't grow into algae. So it made sense to me that I had enough beneficial bacteria at 1 ppm. Adding fish and their corresponding food would initiate another cycle. Starting with ammonia levels increasing.

I removed all the fish because I'm an analytical person and I'm trying to eliminate one potential cause of the problem.

I followed the people who suggested changing to EI and lowered the temp to 78 deg F. I removed the aeration and did a 50% WC. 
Most importantly, I reduced the lights to 2.0 wpg and 7 hrs per day. I also upped the CO2, the pH is 6.4.

Maybe I'm getting somewhere. The green hair algae is now brown on the rocks and wood. The plants are still growing fine. The only problem is that the water is cloudy/green.

What do I do next? I know everyone keeps telling me that I need more plants. That's great, I agree. Trouble is where do I miracle them up at? It's arctic cold here at the moment and nobody has said, "hey I'll help you out and meet you somewhere with a bunch of plants." My last shipment arrived as mush.

Oh one more thing, I rinsed one side of my HOB filter. There was no debris on the filter but it was a very deep reddish/brown color. Like nothing else I've come across in the 20 years of fish keeping.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

It seems as if you have done all you can for now. You will need to let the plants grow in. That algae looks dark green if it's healthy so it seems to be loosing the battle.
I think it is time to get patient and let the plants grow as the bigger they get the more of the nutrients they will use and the algae will have less.
But just be avare that removing the fish removes the source of ammonia that the beneficial bacteria were living off of. You will need to replace a minimum of it to keep them alive so you won't need to do a new cycle when you plan to put them back.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

OK, all the green hair algae is dead. It's turned a nice brown color.

However, I have green water that makes the tank cloudy. I can only see about 18" into the tank. 

My plants are all actively growing.

1.) Do I keep up with the full EI dosing every other day, or should I reduce the dosing to half until the tank fills in? Is that why I have green water?

2.) Can I filter the green water with carbon or purigen?

Thanks


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

That type of algae usually takes longer to be rid of. Removing the dead hair algae and water changes help. You can pick some of it off/w tweezers and/or use the vacuum hose when you change water to suck it off as it usually breaks free easilly after it's dead. This helps keep down on organics being put into the water which that other algae would feed off of.
When I was younger and had tanks I never had algae problems even/w med light but I had simple tanks/w only floating Hortworth and no ferts.When I started back 4 years ago after the first few months in each tank with more/different plants AND ferts
the algae showed up at about 3-5 months after each tank was started which testifies to what I usually hear from most new tank owners who did what I did which was to put too much light in tanks which had not enough plant growth to use up all the ferts
and/or unbalanced ferts.
Each thing you change needs time to take full effect because doing multiple things at once leaves you not knowing which did what. Allow some time to pass so the effects can be seen. Like two to three weeks at least.


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## Lab_Man (Dec 7, 2012)

*update on 2/3/14*

My tank was clear of green hair algae but the water was so green that I could not see 12 inches into the water.

I did a 100% water change last night. I have to say that the tank water is crystal clear. This morning it was still 100 % clear, so maybe the green water is gone?

I don't think a person can wc their algae issues away. 

As I am growing my tank in, what should I be doing besides lowering my wpg and keeping CO2 up to approx 30 ppm and fertilizing ang 50% wc weekly?


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## The Trigger (May 9, 2012)

Lab_Man said:


> I don't think a person can wc their algae issues away.


It can definitely help though. Keeping the water clean is a big factor in helping combat some types of algae. Plus GW is caused by the presence of ammonia so you did the right thing


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Is there a particular reason we haven't seen a picture of it yet ?
Up to you though.
Have you tested the ammonia lately ? I'm wondering if your cycle ever got caught up/w the amount of fish you have to be having ammonia in there.


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