# Bba?



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Ugh! That looks like what I understand to be BBA! Its a pain and I commiserate with you. 

I fight it periodically as well. In my case, I believe it is due to an imbalance between Co2, nutrients, and light. I dont have Co2, so I consistently have to adjust lighting and nutrient levels to find that "sweet spot" of equilibrium given the low-tech environment. I do dose Excel, but I think it helps more to deal with algae ( the effect) than works as a substitute for lack of co2 ( the cause). 

But, these are all the "opinions" of a beginner. Im sure someone will swoop in and correct the errors in my assumptions- LOL!


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## jcoulter (Mar 12, 2018)

That does look like BBA. If it is just on that rock, you could pull it out and put some H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) or Excel on it. Can also use Excel to "spot treat" the affected areas in your tank.

Cause is probably too little CO2 (if you are injecting CO2...) or too high of dissolved organics (plant detritus, fish poop, food, etc). Give the tank and filters a good cleaning. Algae hates clean tanks.

For what it's worth, it's a pretty common algae. Welcome to the club!


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## [email protected] (May 22, 2019)

You better nuke that rock before it breeds! xD


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## mtndweller (Feb 8, 2019)

ok. i pulled the rock, seems to be the easiest solution. 
i have no idea where it came from as i haven't added anything in a log time and i keep the tank pretty clean. 

can this stuff lay dormant for a length of time and then regenerate? 

and is it true that amano will eat this? because i have another tank with several amano whom i guess would appreciate a new snack.


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## jcoulter (Mar 12, 2018)

mtndweller said:


> ok. i pulled the rock, seems to be the easiest solution.
> i have no idea where it came from as i haven't added anything in a log time and i keep the tank pretty clean.
> 
> can this stuff lay dormant for a length of time and then regenerate?
> ...


That's my understanding on both questions, yes.


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

I am a BBA fighting veteran and what I find interesting is how there is so much on that one rock and none on the surrounding ones . OP , is that how it is or did you just take a pic of that one bad rock ? If it is just that one rock , why ? Color of rock , location in tank , etc ? I have noticed in my tanks that the darker an ornament , sponge ,whatever , the more BBA will grow on it as opposed to lighter colored things .


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Leeatl said:


> ...I have noticed in my tanks that the darker an ornament , sponge ,whatever , the more BBA will grow on it as opposed to lighter colored things .


That would be a surprising find. I've seen BBA grow right on a white ceramic diffuser and of course on glass which is clear. What kind of objects do you have in your tank that are dark and which are light?


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

In one tank I had a wrecked car that is black and dark greys . I just recently took it out and peroxided it and left it out because it was covered in BBA . It grows on my black prefilter sponges . In my other tank I have a ceramic pipe . Looks like a terracotta one . It is light beige except the female end which is a dark red . BBA grows on the red part but not the beige . It does not grow on HOB intake stems nor heaters , or tank glass . Does grow on my dark driftwood too . Both tanks have BDBS substrate and I have never seen it growing on it , so that is the exception to my theory . I had a small house in one tank that is dark grey and it grew well on it too . Oh , I have Inkbird temp controller probes in both tanks . I have them sealed in black drinking straws and you guessed it , they get a lot on them too . I don't know , maybe I am grasping at straws , no pun intended...lol and need more input from OP , but just curious if it grew on just that one rock of his . BBA seems to be an elusive foe so every bit of info we can gather helps .


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

jcoulter said:


> That does look like BBA. If it is just on that rock, you could pull it out and put some H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) or Excel on it. Can also use Excel to "spot treat" the affected areas in your tank.
> 
> Cause is probably too little CO2 (if you are injecting CO2...) or too high of dissolved organics (plant detritus, fish poop, food, etc). Give the tank and filters a good cleaning. Algae hates clean tanks.
> 
> For what it's worth, it's a pretty common algae. Welcome to the club!


I have it rampant in my 60 gallon tank right now as we speak! :frown2:I thought I heard that Chemi-clean was recommended as well? Or was that a different algae?


Edit: This tank is a discus tank that gets 2 x75% water changes weekly and has immaculate cleaning of substrate and filter- I figure must be the "too little Co2" in my case.


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## jcoulter (Mar 12, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> jcoulter said:
> 
> 
> > That does look like BBA. If it is just on that rock, you could pull it out and put some H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) or Excel on it. Can also use Excel to "spot treat" the affected areas in your tank.
> ...


I'm not familiar with chemi-clean, sorry 😕

My understanding is BBA like a range of 5-15ppm co2. I don't know if that info is up to date or not, though.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Discusluv said:


> I have it rampant in my 60 gallon tank right now as we speak! :frown2:I thought I heard that Chemi-clean was recommended as well? Or was that a different algae?
> 
> Edit: This tank is a discus tank that gets 2 x75% water changes weekly and has immaculate cleaning of substrate and filter- I figure must be the "too little Co2" in my case.


 Too frequent water changes, plant nutrient imbalance, unhealthy plant mass, detritus and periphyton is where BBA loves to grow. It does not care about flow, light intensity or duration, plant nutrients nor CO2 levels.

BTW, if you don’t have Excel or peroxide, dipping infected items in vinegar for few minutes will kill BBA. Dipping plants for 5 seconds will get them clean too. Flush with tons of tap water before returning them back.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Edward said:


> Too frequent water changes, plant nutrient imbalance, unhealthy plant mass, detritus and periphyton is where BBA loves to grow. It does not care about flow, light intensity or duration, plant nutrients nor CO2 levels.
> 
> BTW, if you don’t have Excel or peroxide, dipping infected items in vinegar for few minutes will kill BBA. Dipping plants for 5 seconds will get them clean too. Flush with tons of tap water before returning them back.


 Thanks @Edward. I do have Excel and peroxide; so, ill do what you recommend. 

The too frequent water changes I cant do anything about- its necessary for the fish-stock. So imagine it will be a problem I will continue to struggle with.


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## jcoulter (Mar 12, 2018)

Edward said:


> Too frequent water changes, plant nutrient imbalance, unhealthy plant mass, detritus and periphyton is where BBA loves to grow. It does not care about flow, light intensity or duration, plant nutrients nor CO2 levels.


Could you expand on this a bit? It's the first time I've heard of some of those specific reasons. To give some perspective, I've definitely come from the Tom Barr/barrreport school of thought on everything.

"Too frequent water changes" definitely seems counter intuitive


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> Too frequent water changes, *plant nutrient imbalance*, unhealthy plant mass, detritus and periphyton is where BBA loves to grow. It does not care about flow, light intensity or duration, *plant nutrients* nor CO2 levels....


So does it care about plant nutrients or not >

BBA is not tied directly to plant nutrient imbalance or unhealthy plant mass. It grows in fish only tanks as well. Just take a look at your LFS. The common denominator that a fish only tank and a planted tank has is organic waste. To much of this for the system and BBA will eventually grow. Duration and light intensity will make it grow quicker just like most plants. Co2 will help only if the plant mass is there for plants to increase uptake in the system to remove waste from the decomposing organics. 

BBA is one of the most common algaes to get, but its also one of the most straight forward ones to remove.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

The causes of BBA have been debated here and elsewhere quite often. I can only speak to my personal experience, and what I have observed following numerous journals here on the board.

Most cases have much in common. First and foremost is generally dirty conditions. Lack of water changes, lack of filter cleaning, lack of substrate vacuuming, overfeeding fish, overstocking fish, etc. All lead to excess dissolved organics in the system, which BBA loves. IMO, the first step to avoid BBA is to provide uber clean tank conditions. When you see very successful tanks here and elsewhere, if you dig deep enough you will find that tank cleanliness is taken very seriously, and that includes large regular water changes. 

Too much light is another common cause. Light needs to be provided in relation your plant types and mass. Combine too much light with dirty tank conditions, and you have a perfect recipe for BBA. Seen it over and over here and elsewhere. The more light you provide the more algae and other problems will expose any weakness and lack of balance. In general, if you are going to blast the light, you better have everything else in good balance.

Plant health is also a contributing factor. Not so much that it causes BBA, but dead and decaying plant matter is a magnet for BBA and other algae. You will notice that folks who demonstrate success pay more attention to every detail. This includes keeping CO2 at optimal levels (and O2 as well), removing any dead or decaying plant matter, pruning old unhealthy growth, providing a good level of nutrients in relation to the plants being kept, etc. No question to me that happy healthy plants are the best defense against all algae. 

On a side note, I often see folks reduce or eliminate fert dosing to battle algae. IMO, exactly the wrong thing to do in some cases. Starved weak plants are an easy target for algae. And IME, I have not seen a correlation between rich fert dosing and algae. There are situations where too much is not good, with CSM+B toxicity coming to mind. But that all goes back to general plant health, and providing a good overall balance of nutrients. In general, it’s better to be focused on making plants happy and healthy than defeating algae. 

Now flow is an interesting factor to me, in that both too little and too much can be a problem. Too little flow and stagnant water seems to be a contributing factor for BBA. Sometimes it is related to too much uncontrolled plant mass, with creates dead spots and a large buildup of detritus. Pull out a large dense grouping of plants, and watch the detritus and organics fly. That dead and dying material needs to be removed, as it leads to more dissolved organics in the system, which you should be trying to avoid.

Now too much flow is another issue. Many times BBA develops right in the areas of the highest flow. Let’s say a powerhead is aimed right at a piece of driftwood. Many times, that is exactly the spot where BBA flourishes. I have experienced this and have seen it countless other times in other tanks. Sometimes just reducing flow can beat back BBA quite quickly.

Now these are all just personal observations from my tank and other tanks that I follow. Now as to @Discusluv, and BBA issues with a an exceptionally clean tank, well I am at a bit of a loss there. My guess would be too much light in relation to plant mass, but really I am a bit stumped. Another possible issue could be adequate bio filtration, as a mature steady bio field quickly converts ammonia. I only mention it as I have seen instances where ammonia spikes triggered an outbreak of BBA, but doubt it is the case there.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Any action or condition that disrupts allelochemicals makes BBA stronger.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Getting back to a possible reason why @Discusluv might have BBA in a tank that receives 2x75% weekly WCs could be related to two things. The first thought is that when you have large waste producing fish like discus and other larger fish it's always a challenge to run enough light to grow plants and not get algae. In this case in spite of the WCs the waste can be still sitting in the filter, decomposing and re-entering the WC. Even with good filter cleaning it doesn't take long for waste to breakdown. 

The other would be in line with what @Greggz stated that in spite of the cleaning the light, plant mass, WCs isn't enough for the given setup. There is still waste that remains in spite of the WCs do to large waste producing fish.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Edward said:


> Any action or condition that disrupts allelochemicals makes BBA stronger.


Can you explain for us newbies what you mean by "allelochemicals"? What are they from, and what effect do they have?

Thanks!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Greggz said:


> The causes of BBA have been debated here and elsewhere quite often. I can only speak to my personal experience, and what I have observed following numerous journals here on the board.
> 
> Most cases have much in common. First and foremost is generally dirty conditions. Lack of water changes, lack of filter cleaning, lack of substrate vacuuming, overfeeding fish, overstocking fish, etc. All lead to excess dissolved organics in the system, which BBA loves. IMO, the first step to avoid BBA is to provide uber clean tank conditions. When you see very successful tanks here and elsewhere, if you dig deep enough you will find that tank cleanliness is taken very seriously, and that includes large regular water changes.
> 
> ...


The BBA is not on the plants at all. It is just on high flow areas: the filter inflows and outflows, airlines, and driftwood. I have a very powerful filter on this tank- a Fluvel G6 on a 60 gallon tank. I think you have something there.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Can you explain for us newbies what you mean by "allelochemicals"? What are they from, and what effect do they have?
> 
> Thanks!


 Allelochemicals is rather large topic for its complexity and diversity. There are many publications and videos describing it.

In simple terms, allelochemicals are chemical compounds created and released by plants in order to fight herbivorous animals, algae, fungus, and also other plant species in close proximity. They can get so specialized that different allelochemicals can be made by the same plant for daylight defense and night defense against insect or animals. We can also see how some plant species don’t grow in close proximity in nature. It is powerful warfare. 

When aquarium conditions are right, plants can fight algae, we can see that often. Plant’s leaves become clean and glossy, algae free. But why also glass walls, decoration and equipment also become algae free? Because somehow plants “outcompete” algae for nutrients? Nonsense, algae can get away with much lower nutrient concentrations than plants. It is a presence of active anti-algae compounds made by the healthy plants. 

I think the compounds have a short lifespan due to degradation and interactions. Also the concentrations are very small. 

Let’s watch following posts, arguing, when water was filtered with carbon and without no difference in algae was observed, therefor allelochemicals do not exist . Well, it’s obviously more complicated than that. 

Thanks for asking.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Edward said:


> Let’s watch following posts, arguing, when water was filtered with carbon and without no difference in algae was observed, therefor allelochemicals do not exist . Well, it’s obviously more complicated than that.



I actually don't mind this reasoning. It may or may not be behind "happy plants = no algae", but it sure aligns with it. 

BBA is so mystical that I'm willing to dance around a bush to ward it off.  So I'll readily take anything that stronger resembles a sane explanation.

However, I can't help but to think about the move 'the happening' whenever someone mentions it


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> Any action or condition that disrupts allelochemicals makes BBA stronger.


Is just more of the same non-applicable science that is brought up which in effect simply stirs the pot against almost all rational thinking from professional and very experienced aquascapers and aquatic farmers who watch BBA disappear by doing more water changes, reducing light and removing organics. 

it could be true in a sterile setting, but in our home aquariums light and organic load will have a far greater effect on keeping BBA away. Under aquarium conditions making it applicable to most people's aquariums this thought is useless IMO. 

So anyone reading posters prior post would have you believe not doing water changes, increasing your light and/or duration will either not increase BBA or reduce its impact or remove BBA from your system.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Edward said:


> Allelochemicals is rather large topic for its complexity and diversity. There are many publications and videos describing it.
> 
> In simple terms, allelochemicals are chemical compounds created and released by plants in order to fight herbivorous animals, algae, fungus, and also other plant species in close proximity. They can get so specialized that different allelochemicals can be made by the same plant for daylight defense and night defense against insect or animals. We can also see how some plant species don’t grow in close proximity in nature. It is powerful warfare.
> 
> ...


Makes sense- thanks.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> So anyone reading posters prior post would have you believe not doing water changes, increasing your light and/or duration will either not increase BBA or reduce its impact or remove BBA from your system.


+1.

For the vast majority of folks, particularly those with any decent fish load, turning up the light and not changing water is the quickest path to all kinds of algae.

Why? Doesn't matter. Seeing it happen over and over again is enough for me.


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## Ddrizzle (Jan 30, 2019)

Greggz said:


> The causes of BBA have been debated here and elsewhere quite often. I can only speak to my personal experience, and what I have observed following numerous journals here on the board.
> 
> Most cases have much in common. First and foremost is generally dirty conditions. Lack of water changes, lack of filter cleaning, lack of substrate vacuuming, overfeeding fish, overstocking fish, etc. All lead to excess dissolved organics in the system, which BBA loves. IMO, the first step to avoid BBA is to provide uber clean tank conditions. When you see very successful tanks here and elsewhere, if you dig deep enough you will find that tank cleanliness is taken very seriously, and that includes large regular water changes.
> 
> ...


This all matches up with my experience too, except for the flow part.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Whatever it is, not that big of a deal to me- my tanks are not going to win any awards with their beauty- LOL. That is not my focus.

Just frustrating because it's cause seems so elusive given my maintenance practices. From what I gather from this thread it appears that high organics is believed to be a trigger. My tanks never go beyond 10ppm nitrates with 2 x 75% water changes, I vacuum weekly, clean filter via manufacturers instructions. 
But, I do have high flow and high (er) light.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> But, I do have high flow and high (er) light.


This would be my guess, but only a guess.

Some time back I bought new impellers for my Rena filters. It increased flow quite a bit. 

Within days I started to get a little BBA on my driftwood, right where the flow was the strongest. It quickly caught my attention, as I had not seen BBA in a very long time. 

I drilled out the holes on my spray bars, which created a wider gentler flow. Within days the BBA started receding, and then I never saw it again. 

I documented this in my journal. It led to an interesting discussion about flow, and many chimed in that they have seen BBA in high flow areas. It seems to be pretty well known in the hobby. IMO, good flow is misunderstood. Many think it is plants waving around, basically on the edge of mayhem (not saying that is you!:grin2. IMO a wide gentle laminar flow is best. 

Now as to light, no question too much could very well be an issue. 

Easy way to find out. First manually remove all BBA (bleach soak works well). Then turn down light a bit and decrease flow a little and see what happens.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Greggz said:


> This would be my guess, but only a guess.
> 
> Some time back I bought new impellers for my Rena filters. It increased flow quite a bit.
> 
> ...


I will do that, thank you, my friend. :smile2:


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I am on board with high flow and heat.

None on my plants or substrate.
Spray bar takes a whipping, tufts will grow all around the holes.
My heater gets completely engulfed in it.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I am on board with high flow and heat.
> 
> None on my plants or substrate.
> Spray bar takes a whipping, tufts will grow all around the holes.
> My heater gets completely engulfed in it.


That’s because of the dense periphyton there, BBA loves it.


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

BBA always stirs the greatest debates....lol I have heard all of the causes , and I know Excel/peroxide will kill it by spot treating in tank or removal and dousing the affected item . I also know that if you keep fighting it and working on balancing a tank , one day as if by magic , it is gone and seldom if ever returns . I don't think there is a timetable for this . Each tank is different and TIME is the greatest factor . It just takes time . The 2 tanks I run now I had running with a 75 before I got sick and I had them all to a point of very little to no algae of any kind . I only had to clean the inside glass once a month or so and that was just slime not algae on them . I have researched BBA and found there are many , many reasons people have for it and they may all be valid , but I don't believe there are any reasons that are universal to every tank that has it . The solution to each case is just for that tank . The OP never answered my question about it being on just that rock or others also . The reason I asked is I am always looking for a new angle on BBA....lol


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## jcoulter (Mar 12, 2018)

I think it would be an exceptional idea if TPT took some of these oft-discussed topics and created a sort of compendium.

I don't know how many hours I researched the causes of BBA before I even came across the idea of excess organics causing it. I spent so much time tinkering with my photoperiod, co2 etc before I came across a source that mentioned dissolved organics.

Six months ago BBA was some mysterious frustration that I couldn't figure out. Today it is no more than a checklist for my tank conditions (is it clean? Is there enough co2? light too much? Etc). Figuring out that recipe easily took a dozen (or more) hours over multiple weeks of scouring the internet.

This compendium could also serve other topics. Like co2 injection, photoperiod length... My gosh it almost sounds like a FAQ! 

Think Dennis Wong's website condensed even further. A paragraph MAYBE two and a checklist per topic.

Maybe it is already out there, I don't know. I've searched a LOT. Maybe I'm naive. Probably both.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jcoulter said:


> I think it would be an exceptional idea if TPT took some of these oft-discussed topics and created a sort of compendium.


The problem is that there is no scientific conclusion to any of these topics. 

And then you have folks like Edward telling folks that eliminating water changes and turning up the light is the key to avoiding BBA. Exactly the opposite of what I have seen to be true. So how do you decide which to believe?

When I got started, I read a few journals here and elsewhere front to back. But I concentrated on those who demonstrated success. And by that I mean regularly posted pics of their tanks, and shared both their successes and failures. Joe Harvey, Vin Kutty, and Dennis Wong were my go to's. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I am of the "show me" mind set. And those guys showed me. 

So in the end, who would choose what to include? There is no absolute truth. It's almost entirely anecdotal. What we have is imperfect, but it's all we got. Only thing to do is test theories in your own tank, and see where it gets you. At least that is what I have been doing for years now.


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

Greggz said:


> The problem is that there is no scientific conclusion to any of these topics.
> 
> And then you have folks like Edward telling folks that eliminating water changes and turning up the light is the key to avoiding BBA. Exactly the opposite of what I have seen to be true. So how do you decide which to believe?
> 
> ...


That is exactly what I was trying to say in my own way , some parts more than others ....


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## jcoulter (Mar 12, 2018)

Greggz said:


> The problem is that there is no scientific conclusion to any of these topics.


..


Greggz said:


> So in the end, who would choose what to include? There is no absolute truth. It's almost entirely anecdotal. What we have is imperfect, but it's all we got. Only thing to do is test theories in your own tank, and see where it gets you. At least that is what I have been doing for years now.


Hi Gregg 🙂

Lots of good questions, and I'm kind of thinking out loud here, so do bear with me.

TPT isn't some scientific authority, so we mustn't hold ourselves to that level.

Are you familiar with a "re-captcha"? Those little dialog boxes that make you prove you're a human when you sign up for a website by requiring you to enter a series of characters displayed on the screen?

There's a secret about those. They often don't actually know the answer themselves. Once enough people answer the question with the same answer...... That then becomes the accepted answer. Also known as machine learning.

In my example, some respected community member here such as yourself, burr, etc (too many to name), could begin a thread on these topics and the content gets refined over time according to everyone's input.

Ultimately the creator of the thread would be in charge of it, along with moderator help for interference. 

I'm just saying... you could search the web for causes and fixes of bba and it may take hours and weeks before you figure out a list of the likely culprits. 

......

Or you could come to a forum like this one and read a sticky.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jcoulter said:


> Are you familiar with a "re-captcha"? Those little dialog boxes that make you prove you're a human when you sign up for a website by requiring you to enter a series of characters displayed on the screen?
> 
> There's a secret about those. They often don't actually know the answer themselves. Once enough people answer the question with the same answer...... That then becomes the accepted answer. Also known as machine learning.


That brings to mind one of my pet peeves. Folks who read a lot but have little practical experience offering advice. 

I see it quite often in the Rainbow world. Something gets stated, others repeat it, and pretty soon it's accepted as fact. Problem is 90% of the ones repeating it have little to no experience. I have read hundreds of times that male Rainbows will not show good mature color without having females in the tank. I've kept Rainbow for decades in both mixed sex and all male tanks, and I can not discern any difference at all. You will hear the same from others who keep all male tanks. But yet the thought persists, mainly from folks who are new to the hobby and have never kept an all male tank.

Same for planted tanks. I recently joined FB to join some planted tank/Rainbow groups. I hate to put it this way, but there is a lot of the blind leading the blind. Someone has algae, and 5 people suggest a Phosphate remover will fix everything. Have they ever used a Phosphate remover? No. But they have read it on the internet. Do they know anything at all about the tank and considered other causes? No. 

They just read somewhere that PO4 causes algae. And if you dig deeper, most offering that advice just got started in the hobby. They have little practical experience, but have spent a lot of time reading. They can't wait to show how smart they are by repeating what they have read. They have something else in common.They never post of a pic of their tank. I suspect I know why.




jcoulter said:


> In my example, some respected community member here such as yourself, burr, etc (too many to name), could begin a thread on these topics and the content gets refined over time according to everyone's input.


We do have a few threads like that here. The Custom Micro Mix and Share your Dosing threads come to mind. I think both have generated lots of great discussion.

Other than that, I find journal's to be the most helpful. When I got started, I began by following journals of those who demonstrated success with similar goals to mine. And that continues today. I still follow loads of journals here, and have learned much from others who share their journey. To me it's the collective experience and participation that makes this board a valuable resource. 

And to me, Dennis Wong's site is a great resource. The thing I like about his site is that he does not have bias, and shows examples of successful tanks using all different types of methodologies. For most beginners, that site would be an excellent place to start. I have read every single word there several times over, and continue to pop in to see what's new.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Greggz said:


> That brings to mind one of my pet peeves. Folks who read a lot but have little practical experience offering advice...


This is unfortunately just the nature of the web/forums) in general and many (especially newbies) are fooled by this. Someone talks the talk and someone desperately looking for answers accepts it as fact or at least personal experience. Some of the warning signs of this many times are:

1. When asked to show their own tanks they never do.
2. Constantly attach links or non-applicable studies from nature/other environments to back their claims.
3. Publicize their chemistry education and think that replaces experience. 

I'm not saying this is always the case, but before following someone's advise and making any kind of serious change to your setup I would make sure the person has actual experience and simply isn't reading someone else's.


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## jcoulter (Mar 12, 2018)

Greggz said:


> That brings to mind one of my pet peeves. Folks who read a lot but have little practical experience offering advice.


Perhaps my example isn't the best, and ultimately I think your and my thoughts mostly align.

Reading journals is great, I'm on board with that. But I hope you understand that a big hurdle new aquarists face is that there is *so much information out there to be read.* How is a new aquarist supposed to be able to filter through the good and the bad, especially with the volume of information? That's one reason I've reached out to you personally with questions.

If you say that the answer is those tank journals, I counter by saying those often don't cover the necessary topic a newbie might be dealing with, especially for something that needs an answer soon-ish (i.e., no time to read the lengthy pages).

Literally in my mobile browser I have the following tabs open:

1) Rotala Kill Thread (540+ posts)
2) Going dutch (900+ posts)
3) Share your dosing thread (400+ posts)
4) TPT active topics

Additionally, there are several tank journals I'd like to read (the dutch ones like yours and burr's, Phil's high-tech, grobbin's blackwater etc., etc., etc.). I also subscribe to and watch a few different Youtube channels and of course the most important, spend a good amount of time observing my plants.

It's going to take a long time to get through those threads. So when I come across a problem I've not encountered before (like the first time I encountered BBA or something), my only real choice is to google it. And thus the cycle begins. I think my experience is common in that regard. As a side note, I quickly learned who Tom Barr was, and my googling turned into searching for threads about my topic where Tom had responded.

Dennis' website is fantastic, but a year+ ago when I was researching and trying to learn, I had no idea who he was - to me he was just another dude in the hobby. And I actually only came across him because his Youtube videos discussed an exact issue I was having. Today I know better, but it took me several months to figure that out. I've learned a lot from his website.

The point I'm trying to ultimately make is that my journey in this hobby (specifically planted tanks) has taken a long time to get to a point where I only now am starting to feel like I know what I'm doing. That time could be shortened for future aquarists if we, as a community hobbyist forum, included simple guides, sticky's, faqs, etc. I mean, what really could be the arguments against putting up nice, handy guides as long as moderators approve them for accurate content?

Of course, maybe I am actually the exception and I'm just complaining for complaining's sake. Could be.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Nope, your point is sort of valid. For a while, I kept pointing to a buried post by @Darkblade https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=107303#2

I had no updated resource to point someone to until Dennis created his advancedplantedtank.com. So now I point every new person there. and it will be a sad day if it ever disappears because he feels too tired to keep it going. The stickys on here are somewhat outdated and if that's the case, may as well as remove them from the stickies or at least update them. But who's got time to do that? I've gotta go do a water change!  

So, the short short answer is .. you got it. It's advancedplantedtank.com !


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

Interesting thread. I too recently got BBA in my CO2 tank. Thought it was too much lights and ferts or maybe not enough CO2. I see here it's probably more along because I'm having issues doing large frequent water changes. I have to lift 5 gallon buckets up to around shoulder height and it starts to hurt my back really fast. I need to get me one of those python water changers, but the kitchen sink would need a faucet change. I wonder if it would work if I ran a long one to the basement deep sink?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

jcoulter said:


> Perhaps my example isn't the best, and ultimately I think your and my thoughts mostly align.
> 
> Reading journals is great, I'm on board with that. But I hope you understand that a big hurdle new aquarists face is that there is *so much information out there to be read.* How is a new aquarist supposed to be able to filter through the good and the bad, especially with the volume of information? That's one reason I've reached out to you personally with questions.
> 
> ...


 Actually, I think you make some very good points. 

When I first entered this site and began learning about planted tanks, the journals of the most experienced members were, for the most part, inaccessible to me. Even now, having a still growing knowledge of low-tech techniques, fertilization, etc..., the hi-tech conversations are way beyond my head. But, I still go in to these threads and read- hoping by osmosis it will somehow "stick." ~Also to tease them about how they're "speaking in tongues" and to give me a picture of their fish so I can connect. :wink2:


As a beginner you have the difficulty of not knowing the material and also not knowing what the right questions are to learn- on top of this you are learning a new vocabulary. It can be difficult to weed through.
As a teacher, we know that scaffolding new material helps the learning process. Certainly, there are some basics that can be recognized by the most experienced members of the forum that can aid those just entering the hobby.


Edit: Look how popular this thread has been. Need more of this.  
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/.../1246665-ask-me-anything;-help-beginners.html


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jcoulter said:


> Reading journals is great, I'm on board with that. But I hope you understand that a big hurdle new aquarists face is that there is *so much information out there to be read.* How is a new aquarist supposed to be able to filter through the good and the bad, especially with the volume of information? That's one reason I've reached out to you personally with questions.


Believe me I get all this. I was a complete noob just a few years back, and still feel like one some days.

If it's any comfort, I went through the same thing as you. I remember reading Burr's thread, or Vin's threads, and thinking this sounds like complete gibberish. And then @burr740 would say something about how he observed plants responding in some way, and then he added another 5 ppm of this or that, and to be honest I thought he was pretty much out of his mind. 


So I did what you are doing. I read....then re read.....and then when I was confused....yep, re read those threads again. Slowly things began to sink in. I also reached out to Burr and Vin, and both were very kind and helpful to me. It meant a lot that they showed some interest, and frankly made me want to improve and up my game. I try to pay that forward when I can, and am glad to share my thoughts when asked (but remember, you get what you pay for!:wink2. 

Like I mentioned above, I think Dennis's site is probably a great place to start for most. He does a great job of explaining many of the basic concepts, and it's a good way to get exposed to all the new terms and words. If I was starting out, that would be my first stop. But even then, it's still complicated. What he is missing is case studies of regular hobbyists (like me!) who are stumbling along trying to apply it all. To me that is where the journals come in. Real people sharing real world experiences (good and bad). 

A while back we had a thread titled something like "Pro tips". A lot of folks chimed in and offered their best bits of wisdom. It was a good read. Just thinking out loud, but maybe someone could start a similar type of thread where folks (the usual suspects!:grin2 summarize their tank and approach. You know, a short case study of their tank with their best do's and don'ts. Might be valuable? I don't know just a thought.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

evil8 said:


> Interesting thread. I too recently got BBA in my CO2 tank. Thought it was too much lights and ferts or maybe not enough CO2. I see here it's probably more along because I'm having issues doing large frequent water changes. I have to lift 5 gallon buckets up to around shoulder height and it starts to hurt my back really fast. I need to get me one of those python water changers, but the kitchen sink would need a faucet change. I wonder if it would work if I ran a long one to the basement deep sink?


Any med sized power head/pump can lift water from tub/bucket on floor to your tank, the slower you can add that replacement water back to tank the better. Plus you can use it to prep and circulate water in tub to get temp up to room and let it equalize to atmosphere.

Just get a tote of appropriate size, set on floor beside aquarium, fill it with required amount of water, add pump and let it circulate overnight. Add whatever magic dust to adjust GH etc you need, maybe even tie a small bag peat to side then, leave it partially open to air. Next day float a gallon jug of hot tap water in it to get up to temp, add your dechlor about 20min before use. I would actually put hose clamp or valve on hose to slow flow back into tank on fill up so it takes about 20min to fill tank back up. You’ll also need a U hook to go over edge of tank. When it gets to bottom you’ll hear it start suck air, unplug pump, dump that little remaining 1-2lbs of water left in tank, dry it out and throw pump, hose etc in tub and put it away till next use. Believe me your back will thank you and by prepping your water properly your tank will thank you.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Greggz said:


> A while back we had a thread titled something like "Pro tips". A lot of folks chimed in and offered their best bits of wisdom. It was a good read. Just thinking out loud, but maybe someone could start a similar type of thread where folks (the usual suspects!:grin2 summarize their tank and approach. You know, a short case study of their tank with their best do's and don'ts. Might be valuable? I don't know just a thought.


 @jcoulter

At risk of derailing this conversation again, here's the Pro Tips Thread that @Greggz mentioned. As I was sharing this elsewhere, I remembered it being brought up here and felt it useful enough to warrant being shared here as well.


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## jcoulter (Mar 12, 2018)

ipkiss said:


> @jcoulter
> 
> At risk of derailing this conversation again, here's the Pro Tips Thread that @Greggz mentioned. As I was sharing this elsewhere, I remembered it being brought up here and felt it useful enough to warrant being shared here as well.


Thank you for that. Lots of good nuggets in there. I'll have to give the nerite sexing a try later


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

An update from my earlier post -



> I need to get me one of those python water changers, but the kitchen sink would need a faucet change. I wonder if it would work if I ran a long one to the basement deep sink?


Over the weekend I purchased (on sale) a 50 foot garden hose safe for drinking and used it with the deep sink in the basement. I did this because I wasn't confident on the length needed or how messy the whole process would be. I figured it would be easier to return a hose down the street than anything ordered online. Turns out it worked great! It was simple to siphon water out and refill the aquarium. I like that I can do the refill much slower than when I used the 5 gallon bucket. I also ordered the python facet attachment from chewy.com for $5 and change. I'm hoping when that comes it will work with the hose.


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