# fertilizing with worm castings?



## fast93accord (Nov 14, 2010)

oh, one other thing. Salt based nutrients kill all kinds of bacteria and enzymes, good and bad, and i'm sure they will affect the life of fish and other creatures in there... So why would u want to put this in your tank? I've brewed guano to make teas also. Fresh guano is loaded with nitrogen, but ancient guano has almost none, yet has tons of nutrients, and again, has so much live enzymes and bacteria that labs cant even decipher it completely, and again, these live enzymes are the key to plants uptaking the nutrients quickly...


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## yikesjason (Jul 2, 2008)

It is a great idea. The problem would be controlling the nutrient levels. I think you would be better off using your worm castings to do mineralized soil for your substrate, maybe even root tabs.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

fast93accord said:


> I'm really surprised that everyone seems to be using "chemical" salt based nutrients in their planted tanks. Plants dont know the difference between chemical and organic. Chemical salt based nutrients are immediatly assimilated by plants. Organic nutrients rely on bacteria and enzymes to break the compounds down to a form the plants can metabolize, which takes some time. Salt based nutrients are not good for something like an aquarium due to the fact that everything is in it, salt based nutrients always lower pH, will always bring the E.C. up, and i'm sure will cause algae problems...


And where's your evidence that is the case about algae?
Adding salt of WC's will increase the EC/TDS either way.......

It also has little to due with pH.

Since you seem sure it causes algae, explain why I do not have algae issues in multiple tanks for over 15 years or so now? Likewise, 1000's of other do not either.





















> not to mention their designed in labs...


They must be bad then huh?



> But besides from what i know about salt based nutrients... i have a worm bin. I've brewed all different kinds of teas for different purposes.


Vermiculture vs aquaculture are a bit different.
The organic reduced plant material (tea, coffee, veggie waste etc, yard compostable items) is the food for the worms/and the entire compost "ecosystem" tends to have many more trophic levels involved and worms are not plants/algae, they do not assimilate inorganic nutrients, they rely on organic reduced compounds.

They have little choice as far as the energy source, they must have a reduced chemical organic source, not so with plants/algae. They have the sun for energy and can reduce the oxidized forms of nutrients and make sugars etc.

Folks do use WC's and have fairly commonly for about 10 years now.
See "worm castings in the sediment for planted aquariums".

Should pull up a few searches.

I typically use both locations, the water column and the sediment.
Fish waste adds some to the water column, dosing inorganic ferts does as well, then a rich sediment also provides a source for nutrients for rooted plants.

So these 3 work together to provide non limiting growth(not either/or mentalities) for the plants, then CO2 and light are typically the main issues, nutrients are actually lower down on the list than light/CO2.




> Can i brew a tea with my worm castings for use in my aquarium? I'm not concerned with large particles, cause they can be filtered out before adding it, i'm more concearned with the nitrogen level.


WC have already been used/are being used.

NH4 is the issue, not N in general.
You can mineralize the N4 to NO3 via bacteria by setting the WC's ina shallow tray with water for 3-4 weeks, bacteria will do the rest.
If you are in a hurry, boil the WC's for 10 minute, then add to the sediment.
You could also bake it at 400F for about 30 min. this oxidizes it thermally/physically.

I would not use it for the water column dosing.



> Worm castings are loaded with many Macro and micronutrients and live enzymes...........[/quote[
> 
> Enzymes are not "alive"
> The bacteria, worms etc.......they are.
> ...


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## fast93accord (Nov 14, 2010)

Thanks for the lengthy reply...
I know worm castings will also raise your EC, but theirs much less salt/nutrient ratio... but my experience with salt nutes is they are very strong. I am very experienced in hydroponics and adding salt based nutes always lowers ph, sometimes to the point of instability. Then again i've had one particular organic nutes also affect the ph very dramistically... 
This is all new to me so i guess i was wrong about the algae thing...

One thing i know for fact, salt based nutes always have heavy metals in them from manufacturing...

I knew people have used WC to make a base media, but i was more interested in making a light liquid i could dose the tank with...
what is the water column? the water in the tank?

 I know the old fashioned way of brewing teas was to leave whatever plants or matter you were using in water for 3-4 weeks. I have never persionally done it this way. I have always used the method for aerobic tea's... Bubbling water for 3 days or more to remove chlorine. Adding the matter and water together. Put a very large air stone in there with a large air pump. Adding something like Molassis as a food for the enzymes to eat and let it bubble for about 3 days before straining out the solid stuff and using the liquid... 

Actually i like to believe the enzymes are alive. If they were not alive they would not be able to perform their jobs... so there has to be some life force behind them... But i can accept them being bio-active...

Have you ever read into something called Biodynamics? Some of the stuff sounds wild but its all the truth...and really works...

I have a small organic orchard and a large garden and realize one thing. People have been able to grow things successfully for thousands of years. Then all of a sudden 100 years ago everyone thinks the only way to grow things properly is to use chemicals... Theres a reason why all these cancers and whatnot are getting out of control. I am a firm believer that the chemicals on the food we eat are one major cause. Do you have any idea what they spray on Fruit trees?
I have an real EC/TDS meter and real pH meter and honestly dont ever plan on using them on my aquarium. Atleast i hope there is never an instance where i need to check these #'s...
Anyway i appreciate your time and knowledge and understand why people use salt based nutrients. Because they work. But just because something works doesnt mean it is the correct way to do things...


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

We use things and techniques because they work. How is that not a correct way to make decisions? Adding "salts", like KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, etc. to our tanks does not lower the pH. None of those will do that. And, those are the primary nutrient "salts" that we use as fertilizer.


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## fast93accord (Nov 14, 2010)

they dont lower the ph? in hydroponic systems those same salts lower the ph, but then again the ppm is from 400-1260ppm...

I know we use things because they work, but just because it works doesnt make it the correct way to do it.
In agriculture most farmers and orchard owners use salt nutes on the fruit trees, veggies, grains... The salt kills most enzymes and bacteria in the soil. These enzymes and bacteria are needed for the decomposition of minerals already present in the soil and in stones, so osmosis can occur and the plants can metabolize the nutrients in a soluble form. After repeated use of mineral salts, the soil then gets harder and more compact, the current humas compresses, new humas stops forming, and you end up with garbage polluted soil, and the only way the plants can feed is from repeated upped use of salt fertalizers. The plants dont know the differnce, but the soil that feeds them do...
Gasoline and Nuclear power are other good examples. Just because they work doesnt mean they are the best, or even good at all, actually they are both really really bad...
All non organic tree fruit are sprayed heavily with organophosphates and other poisons. Organophosphates were designed by the US govt to kill people. Yet when war ends, they sell this same compound to growers and tell them its ok to spray food with it... Yes it works to kill the bad bugs, but it also kills everything else alive, including giving people cancer and many other serious things. So, it works, but is it worth it? I know i'm not going to knowingly give my kids poison designed to kill. Its just plain stupid, and unfortunatly most people dont realize this. But the point i'm trying to prove is, just because something works, doesnt mean its good. The compounds used in salt fertalizers are known to be bad for fish in the ocean, why would they not be bad for fish in an aquarium? or that living soil we so want to feed the plants?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Hoppy said:


> We use things and techniques because they work. How is that not a correct way to make decisions? Adding "salts", like KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, etc. to our tanks does not lower the pH. None of those will do that. And, those are the primary nutrient "salts" that we use as fertilizer.


Agreed. Having tested fertilizers in levels far reaching toxicity to animals, pH still remains consistent unless you have a low kh and gh to start. Your plants use calcium too.... so What likely happens is that your plants are using up the KH and causing ph crash, not that the "salts" are causing this directly. 

The reality is that by dosing "salts" you likely are allowing plants to use more nutrients and thus burning through KH faster than it is replaced by water change/top off. 

Having literally tested as many combinations of nutrients as I could... I can say that you are much more likely to cause algae with an uncontrolled mix of nutrients than with an excess of "salts". More often than that the lack of co2 or excess light will cause problems long before "salts".

It is easy to blame them, particularly when you are more "natural" minded, but understand that there is a good reason many of us do it this way... as Hoppy said... it works.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

It seems apparent that you have your mind made up. I would urge you to understand that the NH4 from your WC will likely poison fish quicker than any salts will cause problems.


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## fast93accord (Nov 14, 2010)

I never said i was going to use the worm castings on my tank. I just wanted to know if anyone does this? People grow specific plants just for brewing different teas. Different herbs and plants brewed together have different minerals and there are many known recipes. In biodynamics this is one key fundemental...
Ok, well heres a question then. What particular nutrients do i need to add to my planted tank. If fish are suppying the N as ammonium or nitrate or nitrite, i would think Nitrogen is definatly not needed. I have some Eco-complete in my media already to supply some others. One thing i do know, Mag drive pumps will suck up all your iron suspended in the water. With hydroponics it is not uncommon for people to supplement Iron every few days, due to this.
I could definatly brew up some different low nitrogen teas, but i would be totally unsure how much to dose the tank with. I'm sure only a few drops..?
Whats a sign you gave too much? Do the plants fry? fall apart? turn black?
Also do deficiencies look the same as terrestial plant nutrient deficiency's?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Assuming nitrogen needs are met by fish is assuming a lot. Only in the lowest of light and plant load tanks does this stay true for long.


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## fast93accord (Nov 14, 2010)

ok, well thats a good thing, since any plants i decide to brew will always have some nitrogen... 
Now ancient bag guano on the other hand has damn near none, yet is loaded with good stuff, so this could also be useful.
Now something i know about terrestial plants. The higher the temp goes, the faster the plants grow, but they must have more nutrients, and additional Co2, and Co2 injection only works when the lights are on. 
Do people raise their aquarium temps to supplement the added co2 and nutes to increase growth? Normally non co2 gardens are best kept below 78 degrees, while co2 injection works best with temps from 80-85 degrees and you can expect an increase of growth. Some plants may normally grow 1/2" a day, yet with co2 and increased temps you may see 1" a day...


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

It is very important to understand that growing aquatic plants in an aquarium, along with fish, shrimp, snails, etc. is nothing at all like growing terrestrial plants hydroponically. Some things that are true for one are not true for the other. Also, "too much" of anything, other than water, will kill fish, just by the definition of "too much". Too much nitrate, too much phosphate, too much potassium, etc. all will kill fish. But, the levels that are too much are many time higher than the levels we have in our planted tanks from dosing chemicals.

EDIT: I keep forgetting to answer the question you are asking: If you make a "tea" from worm castings you will have a solution with unknown chemical compounds in unknown quantities in it. Those compounds could include ammonium ions or ammonia. It will likely be a colored liquid. Beyond that I doubt that you would know much about the solution. So, it wouldn't be possible to even make a good guess about how much should be dosed in a 100 gallon aquarium, for example. If the aquarium is a low light tank, with just slow growing low light plants, whatever you decided to dose might not do any harm and might not do any good. If the tank is a higher light tank, with more demanding plants, it could do a lot of harm, first by being very likely to cause you to under feed the plants, letting them stop growing so algae attacks them. Or, you could dose higher amounts, possibly adding enough ammonia to harm the fish or cause a green water attack. It is very likely to be a bad idea.


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

Just for my interest, I looked at over 30 sites that purported to have MSDS sheets on work castings. Only a few actually did and a couple of those were pictures or images, not text. This one should do for this discussion. 

From 
http://docs.earthsoutlet.com/Black Castings MSDS.pdf
Composition:
Total Nitrogen 1.0%
Available Phosphate 0.5%
Soluble Potash 0.2%
Calcium 1.0%
Iron 0.2%

At those levels, I have to believe it is bacterial breakdown of the remaining organics in worm castings that are giving people useful water parameters, not the NPK.


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## fast93accord (Nov 14, 2010)

That is correct. Worms have a very interesting stomach. A worm can eat bad bacteria, and 1/4 the way through its stomach there is no trace of anything bad. One part of their stomachs are an enzyme producing machine. Worm castings have a particular enzyme in it which is essential to life in soil on this planet. When these enzymes are released, i believe they reproduce and spread to their surroundings. If we didnt have worms we would not have a lot of other things here. 
But one thing i have read about worm castings. What they eat, depends on the NPK #'s, and obviously no 2 people will have the same test results. The same with brewing worm tea. 2 people could use the same worm castings to make tea, and they will probably have totally different compositions in the end. A bad tea will be anaerobic. A good tea will be aerobic. They say when its done to smell it. If it smells bad trash it. If it smells earthy its good... but then again without analysis you never know.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

fast93accord said:


> Thanks for the lengthy reply...
> I know worm castings will also raise your EC, but theirs much less salt/nutrient ratio... but my experience with salt nutes is they are very strong. I am very experienced in hydroponics and adding salt based nutes always lowers ph, sometimes to the point of instability. Then again i've had one particular organic nutes also affect the ph very dramistically...
> This is all new to me so i guess i was wrong about the algae thing...


We are using concentrations some 10-20X less and flushing far more to prevent any build up such as those is hydroponics. The volume of water used is also much larger relative the nutrient solution.

HCL is often added to keep the pH down by destruction of the KH, this takes HCO3 and yields Strong acid + HCO3 => CO2 and H2O.

Weak acids like CO2 will NOT do that.
Without much KH, the trace metals stay in solution much easier.
Little mold also grows in the mixture.



> One thing i know for fact, salt based nutes always have heavy metals in them from manufacturing...


Errrr......the same ferts we use, are also used for agriculture, so all those trace metals from veggies? They are exported/sequestered and used etc.
No build up occurs. Plants are quite good at bioremediation.



> I knew people have used WC to make a base media, but i was more interested in making a light liquid i could dose the tank with...
> what is the water column? the water in the tank?


Yep.
WC will have too much NH4 is the issue.
I suppose you could, but a lot of trouble for no good reason.
And it would require careful dosing not to kill the livestock/induce algae etc.

I would say the risk to livestock outweighs some biodynamic philosophy.



> I know the old fashioned way of brewing teas was to leave whatever plants or matter you were using in water for 3-4 weeks. I have never persionally done it this way. I have always used the method for aerobic tea's... Bubbling water for 3 days or more to remove chlorine. Adding the matter and water together. Put a very large air stone in there with a large air pump. Adding something like Molassis as a food for the enzymes to eat and let it bubble for about 3 days before straining out the solid stuff and using the liquid...


Should work, I like me my tea.




> Actually i like to believe the enzymes are alive. If they were not alive they would not be able to perform their jobs...


Acid like HCL will burn the hair and the skin on your hand......is it also alive?
Same logic you presented since it too performs a "job".:redface:



> so there has to be some life force behind them... But i can accept them being bio-active... Have you ever read into something called Biodynamics? Some of the stuff sounds wild but its all the truth...and really works...



Crazy talk, pure and simple.
It works sure............if you believe it does, but.........I need more than belief to be convinced. I'm not wired that other way:tongue:

I've very much pro sustainable approaches in most everything, agriculture mostly.......and very pro organic.

But folks get a little too new age and crystal mumbo jumbo.
Fine if you believe in it, but just do not argue based of testable hypothesis and facts, etc. That is really all you have, belief. I do not argue belief.



> I have a small organic orchard and a large garden and realize one thing. People have been able to grow things successfully for thousands of years. Then all of a sudden 100 years ago everyone thinks the only way to grow things properly is to use chemicals... Theres a reason why all these cancers and whatnot are getting out of control. I am a firm believer that the chemicals on the food we eat are one major cause. Do you have any idea what they spray on Fruit trees?


I do know, what do you think I do professionally?
I work in weed management coming up with alternatives to chemicals and use of non toxic chemicals. UC Davis, I'm smack in the middle of the most intensive altered ag landscape anywhere in the world. I use to hate chemicals, then found a middle ground, but still look for viable, pragmatic alternatives that all can live with. Course I have some good facts, not belief.

Careful not to believe everything you think.



> I have an real EC/TDS meter and real pH meter and honestly dont ever plan on using them on my aquarium. Atleast i hope there is never an instance where i need to check these #'s... Anyway i appreciate your time and knowledge and understand why people use salt based nutrients. Because they work. But just because something works doesnt mean it is the correct way to do things...


And that's is your belief.
Now.........challenge yourself and play devil's advocate:wink::icon_idea
Then you can grow.

If you want to be politically correct, perhaps one could argue that we should not even have aquariums at all. They consume energy, electricity, add Carbon footprint, all aquarist over time have killed a lot of fish, lack of knowledge, mistakes neglect etc. Taking fish from their native locations, Taking aquatic weeds and spreading them world wide............

Using CO2 as well, that's far less sustainable, high light? Oh my......
I could go on and on, you are picking and choosing, not being consistent, that can open your argument up to criticism.

You have to accept some trade off there.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
Otherwise, no fish tank.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

fast93accord said:


> If fish are suppying the N as ammonium or nitrate or nitrite, i would think Nitrogen is definatly not needed. I have some Eco-complete in my media already to supply some others. One thing i do know, Mag drive pumps will suck up all your iron suspended in the water. With hydroponics it is not uncommon for people to supplement Iron every few days, due to this.
> I could definatly brew up some different low nitrogen teas, but i would be totally unsure how much to dose the tank with. I'm sure only a few drops..?
> Whats a sign you gave too much? Do the plants fry? fall apart? turn black?
> Also do deficiencies look the same as terrestial plant nutrient deficiency's?


First, you need to know how much ferts the plants need.
A basic Bio Dynamic philosophy with planted tanks:

Healthy plants= healthy fish.

Not the other way around, you start with the base of the ecosystem, then move up with the trophic levels. So you should focus on the plants, they are the base of the system and define it.

You are definitely the first person who's ever suggested pumps remove iron from the water........:icon_roll Might wanna support more of such things/statements. I think you do mean well and some of the things are good 
ideas........but some of this is gross misinformation.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Just for my interest, I looked at over 30 sites that purported to have MSDS sheets on work castings. Only a few actually did and a couple of those were pictures or images, not text. This one should do for this discussion.
> 
> From
> http://docs.earthsoutlet.com/Black Castings MSDS.pdf
> ...


Yep, tea should work. If boiled a bit, then this should convert a fair amount of the NH4 to NO3....but it will also denature the enzymes, so mineralization of the WC would need done first.

Then make a tea from that.

Now if you smart and wanting to be sustainable, using old plant compost and then mineralizing it and making a tea from that would give you what goes in/must come out.

Gots to do something with all these weeds:tongue:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## requiem (Oct 25, 2008)

oooh I came here to search for this very subject. Have a large vermi compost and was wondering if substrate could be made from it. I'll do some more reading - thanks as always Tom for the great info! Always a pleasure to read roud:


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

requiem said:


> oooh I came here to search for this very subject. Have a large vermi compost and was wondering if substrate could be made from it. I'll do some more reading - thanks as always Tom for the great info! Always a pleasure to read roud:


Find a medium power microscope or a high powered magnifying glass. 
Use that to look at samples of the "high end" substrates. You'll find that the non-gravel portions look very familiar to you.


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