# CRS/CBS Questions



## Kittysnax (Dec 8, 2009)

Ok so I have finally found out that my husband likes CR/CB Shrimp. So, now, I have a few questions reguarding this species as I have never kept shrimp for anything other than feeding to predaetory fish.

1.Is it bad for CRS and CBS to cross breed? From what I understand they are the same species, just a diff color variation.

2.Will CRS/CBS cross breed with a "ghost shrimp"? Also known as a Grass Shrimp or "feeder shrimps".

3.Will my tank offer enough hiding/shelter for 10 CBS/CRS? (see signature)

My plans are to get 10 low-grade CR/CBS' and see how they fare/fair(?). Then if all goes according to plan, dish out the money for 10 s/ss grade. I planned to get my low-grades from the swap-n-shop here, but as for high grades....

4.Does anyone know of any good places to get s/ss graded CRS'?

5. As for my last question, is there anything special that this species requires? Any special needs?

ANY information will be appreciated! Thank you!
-Kitty

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oops, I dont have a siggy on this forum! /facepalm! here is the link to my tank: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/98054-kittys-low-tech-budget-20g-5.html#post964061


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The Bee hybrids will lose their color over the generations, and you'll end up with just a muddy-colored Bee shrimp.

No, they cannot hybridize with ghost shrimp, but ghost shrimp have been known to eat shrimplets so I wouldn't mix the two. Keep in mind also that there are many species of shrimp that go by "ghost," but most are from the Americas, whereas Bee shrimp come from Asia.


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## Kittysnax (Dec 8, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> The Bee hybrids will lose their color over the generations, and you'll end up with just a muddy-colored Bee shrimp.
> 
> No, they cannot hybridize with ghost shrimp, but ghost shrimp have been known to eat shrimplets so I wouldn't mix the two. Keep in mind also that there are many species of shrimp that go by "ghost," but most are from the Americas, whereas Bee shrimp come from Asia.


I never even thought of that. If that is the case Ill just keep CRS'. I do not want to cross breed anything and end up with abominations, even if it just a weird gross color heh heh.

Could Yellow shrimp or SnowBalls cross with CRS'? I ask because I like them alot and he likes the CRS'. If it is too much of a hassle, I'll just end up with CRS' because frankly, his interest in the thing is more important to me LOL!


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## GTR (May 27, 2009)

http://www.theshrimpfarm.com/dwarf_shrimp_compatibility_chart.shtml

Shows the species names and compatibility of the shrimp common in the hobby.

SteveU


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## Kittysnax (Dec 8, 2009)

GTR said:


> http://www.theshrimpfarm.com/dwarf_shrimp_compatibility_chart.shtml
> 
> Shows the species names and compatibility of the shrimp common in the hobby.
> 
> SteveU


sweet I was hoping somthing like this existed! ^_^


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## rich815 (May 21, 2008)

Have you had a tank that has successfully maintained any shrimp yet? Maybe cherries? If not I recommend you start with cherries which are known to not be as fickle for conditions before moving on to CBS and CRS. If the cherries do not make it then you'd likely be just setting yourself up for disappointment and money wasted on CBS/CRS. I attempted cherries twice in a well-established 5 gal hex and both times the populations did not last more than a few weeks. Cherries are not hard to keep but they do need a stable tank and I guess being so small my 5 gal hex, though quite well-established (over a year) was not good for them. Later (last June) I started a 60P (18 gal) tank and finally a small population of cherries survived and started breeding. I then have been slowly adding some CBS/CRS and so far they are surviving but not breeding yet that I can tell.


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## itzjustjeff (Apr 27, 2009)

+1 to Rich.

Also..as the higher the grade of CRS the more fragile and sensitive they are. I've been keeping everything from cherry shrimp to SSS CRS. let me know if you really want to get into it and i'll help you!


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## Kittysnax (Dec 8, 2009)

thanks alot guys!

I was reading up on the CRS' and my water PH is too high for what is reccomended, at least right now. The tank was set up on the 10th so it isnt anywhere close to being established. I really like the yellow and blue pearl shrimp and from what I was reading they are super similar to the RCS' in care and water preferances. (I just like the yellow/blue pearls better heh)

I am SUPER interested in getting a colony of CRS' going. So much to the point I surf the web looking to find new stuff and info, which takes up half my day. If my husband hadnt acted so interested I would have just settled for my yellows, blue pearls, or snowballs. But I am trying reallllllllllly hard to get him away from this "a fish is a fish, a plant is a plant, a shrimp is a shrimp...and they are not intelligent" attitude. So you could imagine my shock when he said 'I like these shrimp" after showing him pictures. He even likes the low-grades heh heh.


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

I recommend, instead of going with CBS or CRS, just get some wild bee shrimp. This is the species of shrimp that the CBS/CRS color morphs come from, only, since they're wild they are not as fragile, and their gene pool not so limited. In short, you will have a much better chance of them surviving as opposed to the selectively-bred ones.

Personally, I like the look of the wilds much better than the CRS/CBS. Don't get me wrong, those look nice too, but the wild ones just look gorgeous, with the mixture of brown/gold/white that they show.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

Will CRS and CBS really crossbreed to make muddy bee shrimp? I always see people keeping them together.


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## adimeatatime (Dec 5, 2006)

Some CRS keepers also keep CBS in the same tanks. I've seen charts on the genetics of these shrimp that show what any given mating is likely to produce when you keep CRS and CBS in one tank. It is quite interesting.


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## Rob in Puyallup (Jul 2, 2009)

I'm one of these folks who keeps a mixture of shrimp... in a 10 gallon tank. The vast majority of shrimp are cherries, many of the females are very nicely colored reds. I also have what I believe were called "Sunset" shrimp, which appear to be an orange variety of the cherries. There are also some Bumble Bees in this tank, as well as a pair of Amano shrimp.

So far only the red cherries are breeding and producing shrimplets (and boy are they!!!). I hope sometime in the near future the sunsets and bumble bees join in!


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## Kittysnax (Dec 8, 2009)

I decided to go ahead and go through with Red Cherries. Now, if I could just find some super-reds....


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## Ebichua (May 13, 2008)

CRS and CBS don't turn into a muddy shrimp... not sure how that idea got passed along. Red coloration is a recessive gene, Black is a dominant gene. You can think of it as like Blue eyed people and black (dark brown) eyed people. Blue being recessive, dark brown being dominant. If you mix the two together, you'll see more dominant gene offspring than recessive. 

It really depends on the alleles of the parent's. 
B = Black gene
b = Red gene

Crystal blacks can be Bb or BB
Crystal reds are only bb

Punnett square that 

As long as the offspring carries at least one B, it will show a black phenotype.
Of course, this is a very basic genetics guide but it does give you an idea of what to expect in offspring.

Knowing whether your crystal black is BB or Bb will be difficult until breeding occurs.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Ebichua said:


> CRS and CBS don't turn into a muddy shrimp... not sure how that idea got passed along. Red coloration is a recessive gene, Black is a dominant gene. You can think of it as like Blue eyed people and black (dark brown) eyed people. Blue being recessive, dark brown being dominant. If you mix the two together, you'll see more dominant gene offspring than recessive.
> 
> It really depends on the alleles of the parent's.
> B = Black gene
> ...


I thought there was a lot of partial dominance also involved, and that's why there are so many color morphs besides just red and black?


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## Ebichua (May 13, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I thought there was a lot of partial dominance also involved, and that's why there are so many color morphs besides just red and black?


There are, but that's if you go very into depth with the crystal red/black tree. 
For the most part, black and red is all you will see.

Are referring to the red wine, ruby red, panda and king kong? 
Because that just opens a whole new chapter of new gene dominance. 
These aren't mud colored shrimp though, they're just even more recessive traits that are in the crystal shrimp blood line. 

RW, RR, PD, KK aren't the only ones out there. You've got the blue bolt, hulk, golden/snow white shrimp and so on. 

From what I've been able to gather from my readings, getting the intense red and/or black coloration of the red wine and panda line requires snow white/golden shrimp pieces. Apparently, mixing the two can unlock the possibility of RW, RR, PD, KK. I'm still not 100% sure on it yet but I'm fairly certain that's how you do it... 

But again, if you say, mix a regular Crystal red (BB) with say, red wine (bb), you'll be getting mostly crystal reds.
Red becomes dominant over red wine.

I hope that clarifies things. Genetics can be confusing ;-(


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

So then where do the brownish wild-type coloration of Bee shrimp fit in?


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## Ebichua (May 13, 2008)

There's a different type of bee shrimp out there, separate to the crystal line. Those bees are known as "new" bee in the Asian countries. They're similar but not the same as crystals. And by similar, I means it's kinda like snowball and cherry shrimp. Similar but different species. And I do mean species, not color. 

There are times that crystal blacks come out looking somewhat brown. This is not due to the red gene but rather the black pigmentation is lacking, so the black isn't as thick as it should be and ends up looking a little brownish/black. Like a chocolate color.
Crystal reds get this color lacking symptom too, it's just that they still look red. Just not as "solid" looking, as others would describe.

Hope that helps!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Ahh- I probably just saw "bee" and I didn't realize that another species of bee shrimps is out there now. I saw them described as wild-types and assumed that these were what the crystal bees were bred from.


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## Kittysnax (Dec 8, 2009)

Ebichua said:


> There's a different type of bee shrimp out there, separate to the crystal line. Those bees are known as "new" bee in the Asian countries. They're similar but not the same as crystals. And by similar, I means it's kinda like snowball and cherry shrimp. Similar but different species. And I do mean species, not color.
> 
> There are times that crystal blacks come out looking somewhat brown. This is not due to the red gene but rather the black pigmentation is lacking, so the black isn't as thick as it should be and ends up looking a little brownish/black. Like a chocolate color.
> Crystal reds get this color lacking symptom too, it's just that they still look red. Just not as "solid" looking, as others would describe.
> ...


ok so keeping CRS and CBS in the same tank, I will more than likely have CRS' since red is the more dominant gene? 

In laymans terms: If a red-hair human and a brunette-hair human have a child, its a 50/50 chance of either red or brunette? Or......would it be in lauras explanation "Auburn?" LOL 

I get the basic concept, I am just confused. Id like to keep CRS and CBS in the same tank sometime in the future, but dont want to if it will mess up the colors. But if it would happen anyways, even in a 100% CRS tank, then it wouldnt really matter if the two colors cross-bred?


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## RcScRs (Oct 22, 2009)

Okay, so black always beats red due to genes, so out of every four offspring, you should have one red, but here is what many breeders do.

They have a 1:3 or 1:4 ration of CBS and CRS to keep the genes less narrow and keep the shrimp less sensitive.


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

RcScRs said:


> ...so out of every four offspring, you should have one red...


Not necessarily. It depends on if your CBS have the red recessive trait or not. If you go back to Ebichua's ealier post, punnet square the "genotypes" to get something like this:

BB = black
Bb = black with red gene
bb = red

A BB x BB or Bb will not give you a red. Only if you have Bb x Bb or bb will you get a red.

Folks do introduce other lines to prevent a genetic bottleneck effect. Some of the more desirable CRS are "Pure Red Line" in that no CBS or Golden/Whites have been bred with them for aims of enhancing patterns/coloration; such shrimp have been selectively bred over several generations. Them are some nice shrimp, thick red and white bands.








(HKfishman, shrimpnow.com)


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## kvntran (Feb 16, 2008)

I think when it comes to mixing genes, the probability of getting bb (red) is 25% if 50% of the original population is BB (pure black) and 50% is bb (red), so rCsCRs is somewhat right, but since we are dealing with probability, it's not always exact.


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## Ebichua (May 13, 2008)

kvntran said:


> I think when it comes to mixing genes, the probability of getting bb (red) is 25% if 50% of the original population is BB (pure black) and 50% is bb (red), so rCsCRs is somewhat right, but since we are dealing with probability, it's not always exact.


No, if you mix a BB with bb, you will get all Bb. This will show black phenotypes. You shouldn't see any reds in the first generation. The only time a black crystal and a red crystal will have red offspring is when the black parent is Bb. If you were sold crystal blacks labeled as pure crystal blacks, they shouldn't give any red offspring in the first generation if you pair it up with a crystal red. It's basic genetics in terms of testing pure bloodlines. 

Kittysnax, to answer your question and to clarify confusion, you will not get more reds than blacks in the long run because black dominates red gene. 
It goes in the order of something like this, Black > Red > Golden/White > Whatever other new color there is (RW/RR/PD/KK/so on).

Anything past the golden/white bloodline is still very rare and out of reach to most of us though. So honestly, I wouldn't worry about trying to figure out their gene dominance till later on. Focus on the red and black first, which isn't too hard really. Just know that black will dominate red gene. So the red ones will appear less and less as generations fly by. It takes years to actually wipe out the red gene in the population though and that also means no culling or any human interference occurs over those many, many years. So losing your red gene is rather unlikely if you cull (sell off or give away, whatever) your black gene every now and then. If your starter colony is red and black, then expect only red and black. There won't be brown or anything in between, unless the colony you got yours from has other genes in them, like the snow/golden and/or so on. It's rather unlikely, but it can happen. I've gotten snow/golden offspring from my SS-SSS class before, because the original breeder I got my colony from kept them with snow/golden pieces. But rest assured, you won't have muddy colored shrimp. 

Refer back to the punnett square. (I find punnett squares to be really fun)

B = Black gene
b = Red gene

Crystal blacks can be Bb or BB
Crystal reds are only bb

Here's some examples of parents:
BB + bb = all Bb
All come out with black phenotype but these are red line carriers. While these black crystals won't show red coloration, they do pass on the red gene if they reproduce. So...
Bb + Bb = 50% BB + 25% Bb + 25% bb
You get half of the population with pure black gene and black phenotype, a quarter gets black phenotype but with both black and red gene and then the last quarter of the offspring pops out as crystal reds.
Now, if you mix:
Bb + bb = 50% Bb + 50% bb
You get half-half of black and reds, all carriers of the red line.


And to be honest, I don't really buy into the whole BS people spew about adding black crystal line into the pool to strengthen the colony. Yes, black is the original color but this only works if you're working with super low grade crystals. If you're adding in high grades that have been inbred for generations and over, there's really no difference to adding other crystals from other people's stock of the same grade. If you add in wild crystal blacks, sure, I'll buy that theory of strengthening the bloodline but other than that, it's BS. 
Higher grades can be slightly more fragile but to be perfectly honest with you folks, the difference is barely noticeable in my experience. I've kept SS-SSS in 7.6 ph before, without even knowing it. I had no deaths and they looked great. The only thing I should note to people is that they did breed but it was incredibly slow. Took me 3 months before they got berried and offspring didn't really survive past the first week. Not sure if it was low on food or the ph was just bad, but either way, they can survive in higher ph. They don't plop over like flies, as most people seem to think. 
You'll need ideal conditions to keep these buggers breeding, no matter what the grade is.


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## kvntran (Feb 16, 2008)

Ebichua,

You would get all Bb only if you assume that all the black ones choose the red partners. The chance is still 25% for red when a bb chooses to mate with bb. Let's make it simple, there are four cases in the first generation.
BB + BB = BB
bb + bb = bb
BB + bb = Bb
bb + BB = bB
as you can see you'd get one pure red and 3 black (25% for red)
Now for simplicity sake, let's remove the pure BB and bb because this will not throw off any future probability.
Now all we have left is the same case you already explained
Bb + bB = 50% BB + 25% Bb + 25% bb
This also shows that the chance of getting red is 25%
I hope this makes more sense.

Kevin


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## RcScRs (Oct 22, 2009)

Also, this all relies on how many CBS you are keeping in ration to CRS.


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## killer007 (Feb 11, 2010)

Sorry i am new...
i know this post is pretty long....
i recently see LFS label what i think crystal black shrimp as "Black Diamond Shrimp"
any difference for Black Diamond Shrimp?

Thanks


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## phreeflow (Feb 13, 2010)

Great info on this thread! 

@killer007...I heard the term Black Diamond Shrimp used for regular CBS and also for black tiger shrimp.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Excellent read! Very great info.


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