# ADA AS + Melting Plants?!



## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I just added ADA AS this past week and planted plants I got on the forum.

Everything seems to be melting now. The ludwigia, rotala, vals, even the anubias!

Is it temporary and will the plants grow new leaves? Everything is turning into mush, and I'm not sure why! Is it because the drastic change in kH? The fish seem fine, but the plants are dying!

I have 2.5 WPG over the 40 gallon tank w/ EI dosing and pressurized CO2 (it's been on and off intermittently since I keep re-arranging things).


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Have you checked your parms of the kH/GH etc. You guys have hard water there don't you? 
I would think your plants would flourish with the AS. Maybe its an adjustment phase, hopefully.


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## PeteyPob (Apr 26, 2004)

We here in SA Texas hard HARD water. I have just set up a tank with ADA PS & AS and no plants yet have melted. I have read elsewhere here that some others have had problems with certain plants melting but dont think the ADA AS has anything to do with it.
I agree with above posting, probably adjusting.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

It better be adjustment, cuz that's a LOT of plants.

The vals have all melted. The roots are kinda soft. I'll leave them and see. The Crinum calamistratum has leaves that have 1/2 melted off too. R. wallichii is melted.

We have hard water here too...hard as a rock.


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## PeteyPob (Apr 26, 2004)

yea, I know what you mean on the water! Our source of water(Aquafer) is based with limestone!


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

epicfish, i really believe it is an acclimation period as i have been experiencing the same thing. two weeks ago i added plants into the tank with new AS and almost everything i had melted to nothing. all crypts, blyxa, vals, hygro, and temple. it really sucks but i can see the blyxa growing back and crypts are stable now. just be patient. (i am SUCH a hippocrite saying that)


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

I remember reading a post from an old Mod, (a good dude named Buck). Anyhow, he had some melted plants he knew were dead. But forgot to pull them out. Then, many weeks later the plant threw up new growth. Just trying to be positive by telling you this anecdote.


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## Booger (May 17, 2004)

Gotta be acclimation. How big was the KH swing? Did you adjust your CO2 to compensate?


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Oh danepatrick, 
I know you aren't one to caution patience! GASP! LOL! Epicfish, if you changed the substrate and immediately planted, it makes sense that you might have a "melt down" and here's why:

AS apparently goes through a process in the initial stages when introduced into a tank. Ammonia goes up and various changes occur to KH/GH in the water. Over time these changes decrease and eventually end whereupon the substrate produces no ammonia and slightly buffers (down) the ph of the water. This change can be accelerated or enhanced with addition of Carbon (large amounts of carbon according to Amano-san's practice) as well as the addition of Seachem Purigen to filtration. I can not begin to fully explicate the chemical reactions occurring which cause this dynamic but it seems to be a common occurrence with "fresh" AS. I've personally noticed that over the course of 2 weeks now, the AS has balanced out in my tank (of approx. 20g). Although I've added Purigen to the filtration and no small amount of carbon! AS also was irritating the **** out of me b/c it tends to slightly tint the water but this changed after I took the measure indicated above. I hope this helps and as always YMMV. It truly is an awesome substrate once you get past this initial phase....good luck!


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## kurohige (Feb 22, 2007)

I had this problem too. Plants were melting for within the first week.

But after that, it grew back.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

Replied to your other thread but I experienced the same thing.


Like the others have stated(much better than I) it is cause of poor acclimation. AS drops KH and PH dramatically and that probably shocked the plants. I had my whole tank melt off to nothing but stubs in the substrate but I stuck it out cause I experienced the same thing with crypts in less drastic changes and all the plants grew back 10x better looking!!


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Hm...I did one 50% WC before I planted, but I don't think that was enough. I'll keep the "dead" stems and bulbs/rhizomes in there and hope they grow back nicely.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

When I first set up my tank I used an established canister and then did 50-70% water changes every day for the first week and still had all my plants melt.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Just from reading this post and all experiences, it seems to me that if you already have soft water, the switch was not detrimental, but those of you with rock hard water all experienced the melting, so I have to think that it is an acclimation situation because of the drastic kh/gh change, as those with soft water do not experience that much of a swing. I am about to set up a tank with AS and I have a KH of 1 so I trust that I will likely not experience this. If I do not, it would be consistent with what I am observing from your posts.
Epic, I would hange tight, the longer you can, the better.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

I definitely agree that it's an acclimation situation.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Time to sit and do my WCs then. 

As for the ammonia-release problem, has anyone tried to use either: Aquarium Supplies - Aquarium Products - eQuarium Australia or Ammo Chips Ammonia-Removing Resin at PETCO right when they introduce ADA AS? 

If those products do what they claim, then theoretically, you can add ADA AS, run a filter to clear the water up some, add the Ammo-Lock or Ammo chips, add a bag or two of Bio-Spira, and you should be fully cycled within a week.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

i'll agree with lynn. before i made the switch, i was using eco complete and my kH fluctuated from 9-13. so i had pretty hard water. after adding the AS, it was at 6, if i remember correctly. i bet that shocked the hell out of them.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

I used a fully established canister from a slightly overstocked tank to jump start the tank with AS and I still had a weeks worth of ammonia so the bio-spira isn't gonna be much different.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

I see a few new green tops to all the "dead" plants that were floating. I'll let them float a while longer and see what happens. I got some new plants in the meantime, so I'll try planting those.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Hm, the melted stems are now floating...some have new growth at their tips, but maybe just a few leaves.

Planted a few new stems of different plants, so we'll see if they survive.

All the leaves on my 12 anubias plants have melted off. Any ideas on how long it'll take for them to re-grow? For now, I have rhizomes tied to my wood, and no leaves at all.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

epic...if the rhizomes are still firm and not mushy you will see new leaf growth, just hang in there....however if they are soft, they are done. Check and see.


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## EdTheEdge (Jan 25, 2007)

epicfish said:


> Hm, the melted stems are now floating...some have new growth at their tips, but maybe just a few leaves.
> 
> Planted a few new stems of different plants, so we'll see if they survive.
> 
> All the leaves on my 12 anubias plants have melted off. Any ideas on how long it'll take for them to re-grow? For now, I have rhizomes tied to my wood, and no leaves at all.


Dude I'm sorry to hear that. It's been a while too hasn't it. I hope the benefits of using AS show themselves soon for you. I guess AS is best suited for a new tank. Rescaping a healthy with AS seems to have its drawbacks.

Chin up!

Ed


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## Color Me Blue (Nov 10, 2005)

Question: So is it better (for us that have hard water) to just not plant anything in the first few weeks of using AS, while our water makes those changes?? Maybe just toss in floaters?? I assume since they are just going to melt anyways, why not just float plants while the tank makes it's transition??? 

Or is that a bad idea?


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## Color Me Blue (Nov 10, 2005)

Sorry Epic that you are going thru this. Sucks.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

fresh_lynny said:


> epic...if the rhizomes are still firm and not mushy you will see new leaf growth, just hang in there....however if they are soft, they are done. Check and see.


Yep, I trimmed off all mushy parts. I have a dozen rhizomes floating around. Kind of comical if you discount the fact that I spent $3 for each of them. Heh.  Thanks for the tip.



Color Me Blue said:


> Question: So is it better (for us that have hard water) to just not plant anything in the first few weeks of using AS, while our water makes those changes?? Maybe just toss in floaters?? I assume since they are just going to melt anyways, why not just float plants while the tank makes it's transition???
> 
> Or is that a bad idea?


If I had to do it all over again, I'd soak it in a bucket first. Do WCs on it for two to three weeks, THEN add it to the tank. It'll be messier, but I think it'll cut down on most of the problems I've been having.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

I think that with a tank with really hard water you could either just leave it un-planted and do water changes till the params drop or just acclimate the plants like the others have said.


I guess some people forget that plants, though more more forgivable, is still a living organism.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

fresh_lynny said:


> epic...if the rhizomes are still firm and not mushy you will see new leaf growth, just hang in there....however if they are soft, they are done. Check and see.


Yep. They used to be firm still. Just checked today and ended up trimming away the rhizomes. Cut away about 60% of each rhizome. Doesn't look too good for the anubias. There goes a ton of money down the drain.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

that really stinks....so sorry


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

So, with the AP test kit for kH, it tells you to get 5mL of aquarium water and add a drop. The orange solution from the kH bottle should turn blue after the first drop. Then when you reach endpoint, the blue solution turns back to yellow...the number of drops indicates the degrees of kH you have.

Well, with the ADA AS water, immediately after the first drop is added, the solution turns a hint of blue then immediately to dark orange...meaning kH is at or close to 0.

I've tried this with tap water. 1st drop: Solution is blue. 9-10 drops are required to turn it to yellow.

So after all this time, the kH is still at/near 0 from it's original 10 degrees. I've done close to 8 or 9 50% WCs in this time.


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## Chrona (Feb 25, 2007)

epicfish said:


> So, with the AP test kit for kH, it tells you to get 5mL of aquarium water and add a drop. The orange solution from the kH bottle should turn blue after the first drop. Then when you reach endpoint, the blue solution turns back to yellow...the number of drops indicates the degrees of kH you have.
> 
> Well, with the ADA AS water, immediately after the first drop is added, the solution turns a hint of blue then immediately to dark orange...meaning kH is at or close to 0.
> 
> ...


Somewhat off topic, but how do you get your kH level up then, if you are injecting CO2? The pH will drop very low if there is no buffer in the water and you are adding an acid (carbonic acid), correct?


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

You could try baking soda


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## Chrona (Feb 25, 2007)

eklikewhoa said:


> You could try baking soda


That's what I usually do for my low kH water, but my point is, wouldn't AS eat up the kH from the baking soda rather quickly?


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## ringram (Jan 19, 2005)

Just give it some time. My plants were melting and not doing too hot for the first couple weeks after I set up my tank with AS. Just keep up the water changes and you should be ok.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Epic, on APC some guys were putting in crushed coral to supplement KH depletion with new Aqua Soil. I had done that for a long time in my flourite tank, but don't anymore due to a change in my well water. We had to add an "acid nuetralizer" to our well house for a few pinhole leaks in our copper pipe near our hot water heater. My KH went upto 6 after that, but was near zero before.

You would need about a 1/4-1/3 cup in a media bag in a canister filter for a 50 gallon tank with super soft water. It won't register right away, but will gradually. I did that for the first part of my AS change, but later pulled it out. Just an idea. Cost is like .99 for a #. Its kind of surprising you got such a change with hard water. Must have been a lot of peat in your AS batch.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

epic, i would like to ditto what ringram said. me, of all people should be the last one to talk about patience, but when using this AS, you have to have some. it has taken about a month for my tank to settle down, but now that it has, i am as enthusiastic about this stuff as EVER. if and WHEN i do another tank, i will ONLY use AS and i will not worry about rushing to put plants or fish in, but put that enthusiasm into doing numerous water changes and water testing before i ever introduce a living thing into the tank. my plants kept melting away, fish dying, but after the water changes, the ammonia settled, plants settled, and now i'm having the best time that i have ever had doing planted tanks, and i have been into it for about a year and a half now. just keep it up! :thumbsup:


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

*AHA! * Thanks to Scolley I have done some research about the problems people have been having w/AS and the tinting, cloudiness, etc. Here are the facts, straight from the Master's mouth...er...keyboard I guess:

http://www.adana.co.jp/_e_Aqua_Soil/


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Does say anything about melting my plants. =P Not specifically, anyways.

I got some cloudy water and minor tinting that I got rid of using a diatom filter and some carbon.


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## EdTheEdge (Jan 25, 2007)

Someday I'm going to have to give this stuff a try. I've read praises and horror stories.

How good can it be?


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

So Epicfish, how are things coming along? Any progress made re: your plants?? I'll let you know that I had to recently take some plants out b/c they weren't acclimatizing that well during the transition phase of the aquasoil but now everything is getting better day by day...just curious how your tank is doing these days...


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Things are growing now. I had to throw out all the anubias, all the R. wallichi, pellia, heck, even some willow moss. A bit of the R. rotundifolia started growing back, so there's a few short stems of that.

On the positive side, everything I've added AFTER the 8 water changes have been growing. Ran out of CO2 a week ago and didn't have a chance to get a refill yet, so the plants haven't been growing at their full potential. I've been running 1x96w over the 40 gallon lately...until my CO2 tank gets refilled.

Then the photoperiod will be: [email protected] for 3 hours, [email protected] for 4 hours, [email protected] for 3 hours.

Updates to come when the CO2 is refilled.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

i'm excited to see how things look. i've got to say that my tank is coming along ever so smoothly after the hell.  i did too lose a good portion of my plants.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Wow...that sucks. I've had the same issues, but it has improved, of course now I got brown dust diatom algae but it's much better than cloudy water syndrome, lol!! Only *8*, I've got to be on number 26 or something ridiculous like that by now, I've lost count...you're lucky! ha ha ha Well looking forward to the next update!


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

I just setup an ADA Mini-M with Aquasoil/Powersand and decided to put it to the test.

What I did different this time was....

layed substrate, filled with water and let it sit for a day.
Next day I did a water change of about 60-70% 
Third day I started the filter with a bag of Purigen in it and threw 3 bunches of stems...narrow leaf ludwiga, Rotala Indica and some other Rotala.

A week now and nothing melted!! The only thing different from this tank and my other one that went through a melt down was I waited a few days before planting and the bag of Purigen.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

well my tank is finally getting cleared up! After about a million water changes, and 200mL of Purigen (recharged twice now) it is getting better by the day...so you see Dane you were right, who would have thought?!!! LOL. So now that I wonder now that this bacterial bloom is over I might try putting some ottos in and clearing up this ridiculous diatom algae over everything...my plants are doing pretty well too I have to say...every time I tried to grow giant hairgrass it died on me after about a month (and I still have two weeks left) but so far so good only a strand here or there...


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

haha. of course i was right mike. DUH. j/k. i wouldn't lie to you. i was telling you based on personal knowledge and experience.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Plants are growing, nothing has melted. I've soaked two more bags of ADA AS in a rubbermaid container for my new tanks...hopefully this will prevent any problems.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

epic, i think by soaking it, you will be able to able to prevent that whole ammonia stage. hopefully soaking it will not have an effect on the nutrients of the substrate and composition of it as well. if and when i do this again though, i am just going to put it in, fill slowly, and do a water change every day for a week. no plants, no fish. only water, aquasoil, and purigen.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Good idea. I tossed in a "The Bag" in both my tank and the bucket just now.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

i've really been meaning to get one of those so i can put a crap load of purigen at a time. i'm too lazy to recharge the stuff, so i buy the 250ml bottles and use the whole thing until it all turns solid brown. i say that i wonder if soaking would have something to do with it's composition because AS is already really soft. i guess it shouldn't, seeing as it would only be soaked for a week. the stuff is in our tank for much longer. i would guess it just needs to be handled more gently than you would regular aquarium gravel and be careful not to crush it. now i'm babbling..


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

well your babbling b/c your typing @ 2:30 in the morning and I know you would lie to me! I think I agree with you Dane, in the future I'm going to buy it a month ahead of time; soak it in a large bucket or spare aquarium, put a cycled filter on it, add water and a **** load of Purigen and leave it for about a month (changing the water every other day) that seems to be the best way to deal with this stuff...my water is finally crystal clear as of yesterday...so Epicfish, when are we going to get to see some pics?


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## ebichu (Mar 22, 2007)

I also had the same problem with plants melting in AS.

Hmm so to prevent plants from melting, we should layer AS first, then run the tank for a few days (no plants), do some water change.

And then after that put the plants in ?

So if my tank have been running for 2 months now, if I add new plants, I shouldnt have any problem yeah ?


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Betowess said:


> I remember reading a post from an old Mod, (a good dude named Buck). Anyhow, he had some melted plants he knew were dead. But forgot to pull them out. Then, many weeks later the plant threw up new growth. Just trying to be positive by telling you this anecdote.


What ever happened to Buck? He was a great guy, His posts about collecting plants started me doing it:hihi: The plant you where referring to was that stem right?

Also, Check out this link for Cycling ADA AS!:icon_wink 

http://shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=565

-Andrew


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

If the plants you are adding are from really hard water they will melt since AS lowers it greatly.

I just started a MINI with AS/PS and put plants in a few days later with no problems....did two water changes between then and added a bag of Purigen.


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## ebichu (Mar 22, 2007)

eklikewhoa -> so by using your method (ie: plant on the 4th day etc), this will at least raise the kH a bit yeah ?

Coz my kH now sitting at 1 or close to 0. Should I raise the kH ? or just leave it ? Will my kH goes up after some time ?

Thanks for the reply btw.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

well I start with kh out the tap at 8-10dKH which is why I think my main reason for the melting since the drop. 

What I think the ADA thing is like anything else that buffers is that it drops the params and then slowly levels back out. What I think that works is constant water changes and the purigen and patience.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Especially the latter!


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## ebichu (Mar 22, 2007)

So what does the purigen do and effect? Absorbs ammonia and nitrates ? But dont we want that to cycle the tank ?

Sorry if Im asking too much.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

Seachem has stated that Purigen will not noticeably effect fert dosing.

I use just because it makes the water crystal clear but since it was something I did different amongst other things I could not eliminate it.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Purigen will remove insoluble impurities in the water as well as soluble organics. Ammonia/ium, nitrite and nitrates are removed from the water column but this does not affect the cycling process as it remains available to bacteria colonies as long as the Purigen remains in the filter media. Typically by the time it is exhausted, sufficient nutrients will have accumulated to develop a bacterial colony to continue the nitrification process. At least that is my understanding of the process. I have successfully used Purigen in this tank and other tanks to a lesser extent. In this instance, I have used twice as much as I ever have and I have recharged it twice without any problems. Upon recharging the second time, my water cleared up within crystal clarity over a matter of two days (over a total two weeks of problems). So had I more than the 200mL of Purigen (say 350mL) I might have only had to recharge once if at all and the time would have been dramatically reduced. Excellent product of course I can't say that my excellent results are entirely due to the presence of Purigen in my tank, given that I also used Bio-Spira to remedy my problem but combined it worked to fix everything exceptionally well...hope this helps?


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## ebichu (Mar 22, 2007)

If I use carbon instead of purigen, will it does the same job ? Remove impurities in the water ?

Will carbon remove ferts ?

Im asking because I got 1 bag of carbon already ... wondering if I can use this instead.

Thanks.


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## Chrona (Feb 25, 2007)

Actually, I wrote to Seachem about this issue a while back and Purigen does not remove ammonia/nitrite/nitrate. It removes the organics before they can break down into those components. Thus it does not effect your fert routine.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

Seachem has stated that Purigen does not effect your ferts.


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## ebichu (Mar 22, 2007)

Will carbon does the same job as Purigen ?


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

epicfish said:


> I just added ADA AS this past week and planted plants I got on the forum.
> 
> Everything seems to be melting now. The ludwigia, rotala, vals, even the anubias!
> 
> ...


I haven't read this thread yet, but I had the same experience. Melted several coffeeolas, petite nanas, nanas and a couple other anubias. First and only experience with AS--not happy at all.

After reading some of the thread: Yes, I was using hard tap water on this tank. Wish I would have known this earlier. Thanx for bringing this topic up, epicfish!


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

Chrona said:


> Actually, I wrote to Seachem about this issue a while back and Purigen does not remove ammonia/nitrite/nitrate. It removes the organics before they can break down into those components. Thus it does not effect your fert routine.


I'm sorry, Chrona is correct...but I think Carbon will certainly help your situation. The problem with carbon is redux, whereas Purigen does not have this problem as it is a resin.


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## paradise (Dec 11, 2003)

Fish Newb said:


> Also, Check out this link for Cycling ADA AS!:icon_wink
> 
> http://shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=565


Andrew that is exactly right. Nick, dude, why didn't you call me up ?  I thought I told you how to make AS your friend.

Here are my normal steps, given to me a while ago by Ghanzafar Ghori and Jeff Senske. Put in AS, hardscape, plant, put water in, let stay for 30min-1hr. Do 100% water change, replace water slowly not to cause stirr up. Turn on Filter. Do WC at 1 day, 2 days, 4, days, Weekly after that. You wont have any problems. And if you heavily plant ASAP, you never have algae. I never did.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Yep. I did the 100% WCs and stuff. I just didn't do a 50% WC every day. I did one at 1 day, 2 days, 3 days, 5 days. The plants were melting after the first day. Oh well. Lesson learned .


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

ebichu said:


> Will carbon does the same job as Purigen ?


Yes, but Purigen is much more effective. Much, much less can be used to garner the same effect as carbon.

Purigen can also be recharged, lasts a lot longer, removes many more impurities, and doesn't leach phosphates.

Buy the Purigen. Carbon is a joke compared to it.


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