# how many otto's for 10g tank?



## sdy284 (Feb 21, 2008)

this tank will be primarily for RCS, but i'd like an otto or two. I'm just wondering how many of them i can comfortably put in a 10g.


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## aznkonner (Oct 18, 2007)

all depends on filtration and the amount of plants but i'd say 3 or so would be good. if u have lots of plants maybe 4. if you have real good filtration then 5? although personally i think 3 is more then enough.


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## sdy284 (Feb 21, 2008)

yea i've got a whisper 30 filter on there, which is rated for 30g, so I'd say 3 would be more than enough. 

any other input?


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## DonV (Apr 8, 2008)

sdy284 said:


> this tank will be primarily for RCS, but i'd like an otto or two. I'm just wondering how many of them i can comfortably put in a 10g.


I've not heard these terms before when talking about fish. Would you mind helping me understand what you are talking about? 
What is RCS and Otto?

Thanks


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## Supernova26 (Jan 17, 2008)

DonV said:


> I've not heard these terms before when talking about fish. Would you mind helping me understand what you are talking about?
> What is RCS and Otto?
> 
> Thanks



RCS is Red Cherry Shrimp and Otto is a small algae eater fish. You can find it in most fish stores.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Red Cherry Shrimp

Otocinclus catfish (_O. affinis_ usually the most common in the hobby ATM)

I'd say 3-5 Otos, and as many RCS as you want, doesn't matter 'cuz they'll probably fill up the tank in no time unless there's fish keeping the pop down 

EDIT- oops ninja'd by Supernova! :smile:


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## sdy284 (Feb 21, 2008)

Otto's: http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=830+1162+923&pcatid=923

and thanks for the input guys


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

Woah, I'd say 1x otto. I go by the OP10G rule: "otto per 10g gallon."  Any more and you actually have to feed them. Any less and you get BDA problems. Plus this keeps your bioload down, in case you want to breed lots of cherries or add some micro-schooling fish. The actual internal volume of a 10g tank is 9.3g. Add 2" substrate depth and all of a sudden it only holds 7.6g. That's not much water for 3-5 ottos and gobs of shrimp...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Otos and shrimp are both negligible in terms of bioload. You can easily keep 100 RCS in a 10gal tank. You could easily keep 50 Otos in a 10gal tank if you fed them and did regular water changes... Feeding Otos is easy. Don't ever keep just one Oto- they are social animals and need to be kept in small schools. www.Otocinclus.com is a great place to read up on Otos if you're interested.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

I dunno if anyone mentioned it yet but did you put a sponge around your intake for ur shrimpies?

If you did thats good. I have a 30 in there as well. Any lower and it'll be practically worthless. Even a 30 don't seem enough nowadays.


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## sea-horsea (Apr 4, 2008)

so otos won't bother shrimplets? ...i mean will they act as "population control" on the RCS?


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## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

Otos are the only shrimp safe fish imo. They are perfectly fine with the shrimp.


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> Otos and shrimp are both negligible in terms of bioload. You can easily keep 100 RCS in a 10gal tank. You could easily keep 50 Otos in a 10gal tank if you fed them and did regular water changes... Feeding Otos is easy. Don't ever keep just one Oto- they are social animals and need to be kept in small schools. www.Otocinclus.com is a great place to read up on Otos if you're interested.


Yeah, I've had >100 RCS in a 2.5g. The wonders of benign neglect!

50 ottos in a 10g w/frequent water changes? :icon_roll 
The same could be said for a lot of fish - I could keep an adult Oscar alive in a 10g with constant water turnover - that doesn't make it good advice. 

I was giving the OP10g rule more for those interested in algae control than for keeping a 'species tank' of ottos. The Original Poster sounds of this type (he thought one or two would suffice, and he's right, IMHO). 

They are supposedly a schooling fish, but that behavior is rarely exhibited in my experience. I have no qualms keeping 1 or 2 in small tanks. Calling schooling 'social behavior' is anthropomorphic - it is mostly a defense mechanism in times of stress and useful for finding new food sources - the AI involved is trivial; it can be programmed in sims with incredibly few instructions. I've had a lone otto in a 20L for two years now - I don't stress him out and he's fine.  He doesn't 'need' other ottos. 

Otocinclus.com is a good site. Thanks for linking.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

I think ottos are fine on their own, but they definitely seem happier in small groups. They behave differently when single, in a group of 3, and in a group of 10. IME, a single otto hides a lot and is rarely seen. A group of 3 can often be found resting together. In my 55, I have 12, and they truly do school. They swim back and forth, just like my tetras.


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## sea-horsea (Apr 4, 2008)

so...they are fine with shrimps...but are they fine with SHRIMPLETS? babies, new borns....


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## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

They are fine with shrimplets. They are strict herbivores and are Completely Shrimp(let) safe!


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## sea-horsea (Apr 4, 2008)

ok cool...they are good at algae control I assume....


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

macclellan said:


> 50 ottos in a 10g w/frequent water changes? :icon_roll
> The same could be said for a lot of fish - I could keep an adult Oscar alive in a 10g with constant water turnover - that doesn't make it good advice.
> 
> They are supposedly a schooling fish, but that behavior is rarely exhibited in my experience. I have no qualms keeping 1 or 2 in small tanks. Calling schooling 'social behavior' is anthropomorphic - it is mostly a defense mechanism in times of stress and useful for finding new food sources - the AI involved is trivial; it can be programmed in sims with incredibly few instructions. I've had a lone otto in a 20L for two years now - I don't stress him out and he's fine.  He doesn't 'need' other ottos.


For the sake of discussion I'm going to disagree with you a little :icon_wink 

My point with the 50 otos was their low bioload- 50 Otos in terms of bioload wouldn't come close to an adult Oscar, and probably not even a juvie? Oscars have fast metabolisms, are messy eaters, and need meaty foods- all of which make them very high bioload fish even for their size.

And Otos are not "schooling" fish- they are social fish. They don't school in the classic definitions of the word; however, they do group together and occasionally "shoal." Referring to animals as "social" is by no means antrhopomorphic- ask any animal behavioralist. IMO assuming that only humans are capable of social behavior is a bit ethnocentric.  AI programming really has nothing to do with living social interactions one way or another- so I don't follow that bit? 

IMO your Oto would likely be more healthy in a group than kept singly, I strongly suspect that if you added more you would see more active and, yes, more social behavior from him (her).


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## sea-horsea (Apr 4, 2008)

i heard they are easy to breed...how do you tell a male from a female? i am thinking about 3 for 10 gal. which i will have RCS and CRS .....wut do you think...


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

lauraleellbp said:


> Referring to animals as "social" is by no means antrhopomorphic- ask any animal behavioralist. IMO assuming that only humans are capable of social behavior is a bit ethnocentric.


Disagreement is good.  And yes, animal ethology is fascinating (it is a hobby horse of mine!).

I most certainly did not say only humans are capable of social behavior or that calling "animals" social is always anthropomorphic. There is incredible variety in the animal kingdom. Some species are social, e.g. humans, chimpanzees, wolves, and many more are not. Not all species that live in groups are social. Prime candidates of this are some insects (ants, bees, etc.), and arguably fish. Ask any animal behaviorist about fish's mental capacity - it is actually an open question whether or not fish can suffer (insects certainly cannot). I submit for consideration that social behavior requires fairly sophisticated brain, more sophisticated than sentience, and if fish aren't even sentient, there is good reason to doubt that they are social.



lauraleellbp said:


> AI programming really has nothing to do with living social interactions one way or another- so I don't follow that bit?


Computational Biology/Bioinformatics is fascinating stuff. My point was that some seemingly sophisticated behavior is actually quite simple, and is more easily explained by instinct rather than by 'mentalistic' explanations.

OK, there's my tirade.

It may be the case that, at some level, my otto would be healthier in a group. Nothing I can measure though. He is fat, active, disease-free, and well into adulthood. Healthy enough by my count.


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## equus_peduus (Oct 20, 2007)

macclellan said:


> Ask any animal behaviorist about fish's mental capacity - it is actually an open question whether or not fish can suffer (insects certainly cannot).


If fish can't suffer, then why do good fish veterinarians now strongly advocate the use of good anesthetics when working with fish? Why do we advocate humane euthanasia for fish? I suppose technically speaking, pain and suffering are different things, but I think they're probably related. When I see a skinny, poorly doing fish at the bottom of the tank, struggling to stay semi-upright, is that suffering, or only strictly biological programming that is trying to be executed?

I don't know enough about insects to comment.

As for the oto thing, I tried to move a couple otos into my 10 with some guppies a few months ago. Within a few days, both otos appeared stressed, thin and not doing well, despite a heavy coating of algae on the tank (which is why I put them there in the first place). I put them back into the 38 with the other 3, and all five are doing well again. I don't know if it was just my fish or what, but it seems like they didn't like the 10.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Until we know enough to be able to communicate with any living thing besides ourselves I personally don't believe we can rule out that anything is or is not capable of feeling pain- ever asked an insect "how that feels on a scale of 1 to 10?" LOL

We have absolutely no ability ATM to establish or rule out sentience for that matter; all "tests" are arbitrary constructs and IMO inherently flawed. Can you *prove* that I am sentient? Just because I am able to communicate with you and use the first person- that makes me sentient?


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

Nice posts.

This isn't the realm of (deductive) proof, but the realm of evidence and warrant. So, no I can't prove that you feel pain. But I am very confident that you do - the further we get from our own case, the more difficult one can be confident that one has evidence...Elephants? sure! Dogs? Of course! Fish? Probably? Oysters? Maybe! Insects! Probably not. Plants. Very probably not. Rocks. No! 

We know the neurological structures that lead to us feeling pain. This is a good reason to think that others with those same structures feel pain. Fish have some of them, hence the openness of the question. I euthanise fish too, as they sure behave as if they are conscious and have some of the "hardware." 

Evidence is much less, too low in opinion, for insects. 

Is it in principle possible that pain or suffering occur in a way different from our own, neurologically speaking? Of course. But mere possibility isn't evidence. I have no qualms breaking rocks or cutting plants because I have no evidence to suggest that they feel pain. Let's not confuse lack of evidence against with evidence for...that is a logical fallacy, the Appeal to Ignorance.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I don't have any evidence, I'm not even making a positive statement; just playing devil's advocate that you can't rule out that insects ect feel pain when there's no evidence to back it up one way OR the other. 

Of course there were those controversial "do plants feel pain" experiements done several decades ago... but IMHO they weren't conclusive, either.


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## sea-horsea (Apr 4, 2008)

ok bump...so...they easy to breed?


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## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

They are not the easiest fish to breed but I found that if you dont think about it then you will get babies. Also dont try to breed them.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

www.otocinclus.com has quite a bit of breeding info. Also there was a great article on otos, including breeding tips, in the Feb 2008 Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine, www.TFHmagazine.com. They aren't impossible to breed, but do have some specialized requirements (soft water and plenty of plants and algae are some of them)


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## Ryzilla (Oct 29, 2005)

In a 10g you can most certainly keep 5 without any issues. They will eat the same food you feed your shrimp. You could get away with 10 but make sure you are on top of your 20%-30% weekly water changes regardless. In my experience that get sensitive in high ppm of nitrite, but if you are stocked with plants there wont be an issue.

I have kept 10 in a 30g with no problems. They never really "school" but they kind of do like what birds do. You might see three birds on a wire and across the street you see another three of the same kind of birds. Then two birds fly to go see what the other three birds are doing. Now you have 5 birds on a wire and one who doesnt really care on the other wire. Then all of a sudden the solo bird jumps off the wire and glides to the ground to pick at some food and the other five birds on the other wire do the same and land to meet the solo bird. Now they are all together hanging out. Soon after the food fest four birds fly one way at two fly the other.

They really are never alone for much of the time but they never are ALL together either.


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