# white spot/ick on two new tetras in a planted tank Advice?



## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

I could use some advice. I have a 20G, planted, and just made the third stocking round with three additional neons. (inhabitants include German Blue Rams, 6 other neons, Corys, and an ancistrus). Did not have a quarantine tank set up (to my detriment). Added the neons yesterday and two have white spot.

I am trying to catch the two tetras to move them to a quarantine "bucket" with heater and air stone (no extra filter) and treat with Clout. But I cannot catch them. I am not sure how dangerous it is to use Clout in a planted tank, or if that's the best remaining option. If I've only had the fish one day I'm not sure if removing them from the tank might still be effective or if it's "too late" and the white spot is likely to spread to other tankmates.

Anyone with experience or advice?
Thanks,
Rick


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## accordztech (Dec 6, 2004)

get them out soon. GET A BIGGER NET lol. I spent hours trying to catch fish with my small net...I broke down and got a HUGE net haha caught those suckers.

as for clout, I have no clue.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Thanks. I will pull out the big net. Problem is all those darned plants, rocks and bogwood. I've tried bottle traps and semi-invisible bags. No luck yet.

Would love to hear from those who have used Clout in a planted tank and what the results were. I have Corydora and an Ancistrus in the tank too and am not sure how they would respond to the treatment.

Rick


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## accordztech (Dec 6, 2004)

I usually go very slow when try to catch it, where I dont want them to go i put my net there (usually towards the back). you can use 2 nets to trick them.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Thanks again. I guess I just gave them far too many wonderful nooks and crannies! And I still need to learn two-handed netting.
Today at lunch break I submerged one of those zippered clear plastic containers that sheets come in. Empty, it is big and mostly invisible. Left it for an hour and came back to find a bunch of tetras hanging out in there. 
So as of now I have the "new" tetras (two with ick, one that may have ick?) isolated in a bucket with an airstone and a heater, 80 degrees F, and a treatment of Clout just initiated.

My sense is that if I need to do more than one 24 hr treatment and do a partial water change, I can keep the ammonia levels down in the water, though I know tetras don't like uncycled tanks.

Meanwhile, I am hoping some ick experts out there can tell me if there is a chance that the ich parasites might not have reached free-swimming stage and my main tank might be spared? Or is that wishful thinking? Introduced the tetras into the tank Sunday at 5pm. Noticed the ick Monday at 9pm. Removed ick-bearing fish Tuesday at 1pm.

And finally, assuming the ick has spread to my tank, my original question still is - what would be the consequences of treating the whole tank - plants, corys, ancistrus and all (with carbon removed)?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You can be pretty sure that the ich is already throughout the entire tank- I'd treat the whole tank. There are several commercial ich medications on the market that are plant-safe. I'd try and stay away from malachite green or other copper-based meds if possible, as they're typically not invert-safe.

Start bumping up the temp in the tank till you get into the mid-80s F.

And read through this article on ich:

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

From Sunday evening to Tuesday, mid day there is a VERY GOOD chance that at least one Ich organism has reached a mature enough level of development and fallen off the fish. Assume the main tank IS infested and start treatment immediately.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I agree. Treat it all. Start by bumping the temp up a degree every few hours to the mid eighties. Watch your fish. Then begin medicating.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Thank you for the terrific advice, though it confirms that the tank is likely infected even though I haven't "seen" evidence. I will pick up some tomorrow and start a treatment regimen this weekend.
The article you mentioned, lauralee, is terrific and better than I had yet found.

Rick

PS - I've got to mention, the Clout was potent and seemingly toxic stuff, especially in the hands of a newbie like me. While waiting for some better ideas from here I took out the three new tetras and set them up in a hospital tank with some clout (it's what I had and the bottle and web info indicated it was great for ich). They all died within 24 hours. Possibly my error was in the dosing - they come in little tablets good for 10g so one has to try to split them up for smaller tank situations...and the bottle says "known to cause cancer in the State of California"...and my thermometer and heater are all stained bright blue-green now.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

:-(
I also have lost fish using Clout. 

You won't see evidence of Ich on a fish until the young Ich grows for several days. Even then, some Ich lodges in the gills and may even go through a generation or two before any show up, thus the myth of spontaneous generation.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Hi,
DAY 1. I began treatment last night after slowly raising the temperature to 85 degrees F and adding extra aeration. My fish are: neon tetras, albino corys, a BN pleco, 2 German Blue Rams. I noticed some white spot on the rams as I was starting the treatment. This morning, no fish deaths so I'm happy.
Will my plants by OK with Ich-Attack and 85 degree temps from your experiences? Plants include: Java Moss, Echinodorus, Anubias, Cabomba Caroliniana, Spiral Val, and Dwarf Sag.

Rick


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think your plants will be fine. If they suffer at all, they should be able to recover quickly once things are "back to normal."

Best of luck with the ich treatment!!


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Hi,
DAY 2: I've sustained 85 degree temperatures, amped up aeration (via airstone and venturi valve on the internal filter) and put in the 2nd dose of Ich Attack last evening. By then, and still today, there was more visible white spot/ich evidence - the two german blue rams are covered (though acting normally), a few spots on the fins of the remaining neons, and the bushy nose pleco has a good coating of spots. I can't see any evidence on the fins or the whitish surface of the albino corys. The plants are not showing any signs of stress from the temperature or the meds.
I have a couple questions/concerns:
1. BN Pleco: Seems much more lethargic. Before he would always be scouring all surfaces. Now he seems to be still for long periods. I am attributing this to the high temperatures. What do you all think? And, is this dangerous or acceptable for another week? Or is it just as likely that the lethargy is due to the white spot or hunger?
2. Water changes: So I keep adding a dose of medication each day. Water parameters all appear good - 0,0, and 0; and pH not affected. But should I be doing water changes and if so, should that be done just prior to remedicating? If I *don't* do that, will it increase the concentration of the medication? If I *do* that, will it decrease the effectiveness of the medication by diluting it below proper levels?

Thanks for the input.

Rick


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think since your water parameters are looking good, I'd skip the water changes. Yes, you do want the ich meds to slowly build in intensity, so if you do end up doing some water changes, you'll need to do the math carefully to figure out how much medication to add back in to make up the difference.

IME catfish are especially sensitive both to ich and to ich meds. I personally would just continue the treatment and keep your fingers crossed. I'd expect some mortalities (I don't think I've ever treated ich and not lost any fish at all), but hopefully you caught this in time to minimize your losses.

I wouldn't stop treatment early for any fish at this point, or you risk ending up with a treatment-resistant strain of ich.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Hi,
DAY 3: (That is, I just put in my 4th daily treatment of Ich Attack). The ich has started to clear up on the BN pleco and maybe slightly on the rams. Corys still seem fine and neon tetras are still fine though a few are lightly white-spotted. The oddest thing is the female ram now has one white spot which really looks more like a growth than a spot - it's just behind her left eye. Fungus? I really don't know. 

I will try to attach a picture for those who might be able to tell me what I'm looking at!

Thanks,
Rick


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Once you're done with the ich treatment, it may be a good idea to do a Melafix/Pimafix treatment to help prevent 2ndary infections while the wounds created by the ich parasites have time to heal.

That's what I'd guess the new white spot is.


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## rasetsu (Oct 11, 2007)

I just saw this thread. Glad to hear you are sticking with the treatment. People will sometimes freak out and think that their meds aren't working because even more spots show up so they try something else or mess with other things which causes additional stress. Been there done that before the days of the internet and understanding that ich goes through life stages and can only be zapped when they are in their free floating stage. I've personally had very good success with Ich Attack along with raising the temperature to 86 degrees. Some of my finer leaf plants suffered a little, but nothing that they didn't bounce back from. To me, my fish are more important than my plants anyways.

Keep up with the treatment and once the visible spots drop off, I would not expect to see any more take their place. Do a couple of a good water changes afterwards and treat with Pima/Melafix to help the fish recover from the wounds.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Thanks to both of you for the input and encouragement to stay the course! Here's the update, with a twist (at least for me)

DAY 4: actually seeing more spots on the neon tetras, and about the same number as yesterday on the rams. The BN pleco continues to look a little better and no sign of it on the cory. 
When I got home tonight the rams were circling each other on the flat rock and the female was rubbing her underside on the rock. Soon I realized this looked a little like the mating ritual I have read about (I've only had the male ram for 9 days, when I got the ichy tetras). Sure enough, over the past few hours they have cleared the rock and she laid maybe 50-100 translucent white eggs, which they are both guarding. The guarding seems a little futile. The 6 little corys keep making passes over the eggs and get chased away but each time they are getting a taste. I don't think the rams can intimidate them, they are oblivious the way only corys seem to be.

I was surprised to see the mating - I mean, the tank is loaded up on meds, both rams have white spots all over and the female has the fungus growing behind one eye. But there you have it! I guess it's good that they're healthy enough to spawn? Or maybe this will weaken the female and is stress them both out trying to defend the eggs? 

Either way, it's been fascinating. As a fishkeeper, it's been nice to have the fun of seeing this behavior after a week full of crisis-management.


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## webgirl74 (Dec 2, 2009)

Haha that's great! I would think maybe the higher temperature triggered the spawning activity. Not sure if the meds will affect the eggs though as I've never use Ich Attack. Another alternative to using meds is to raise the temp to the mid 80's and dose with aquarium salt for about 10 days. Not sure how plants react to the heat-salt method, but it works great and is inexpensive and not terribly harsh on the fish. If you ever encounter ich again, you may want to try that. But if the meds are working well, then certainly keep going with that. A lot of hobbyists will add salt to the tank anyways while treating with meds as the salt helps to prevent the ich parasite from adhering to the fish. Good luck and hopefully your ram's eggs survive!


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

webgirl - I have read a bit about the heat-salt method too. If this one doesn't prove effective, maybe there will be a round two of spawning. I also thought the higher temps might have been the trigger, but then I only had the male 9 days so maybe he didn't need a trigger.

I'm not seeing much progress here on...
DAY 5: The corys must have finished off the ram eggs overnight. Too bad, but with luck I now have a pair that may spawn again under more controllable conditions. As far as the ich treatment is concerned. I've now been at 86 degrees and treating with the prescribed daily dose of Ich Attack for 5 days. My water parameters continue to be OK so no water changes that would dilute the meds. My weakest tetra has a full complement of white spots as of today (may have been for a couple days as he/she's been very shy and hiding for awhile). The rams also look equally as spotty as ever, and the female's still got the white eye growth. The corys (other than being bloated by ram eggs) seem as active and healthy as ever and the BN Pleco has a few spots but not as many as three days ago.

If any of you have doubts as to whether this course of treatment is sufficient or whether spots after day 5 is normal, please chime in. Otherwise I will stay the course and assume that the white spots have to drop off soon, incubate in the substrate and then we'll (either ich attack, 86 degree water or both) get them in the next free-swimming stage.

Water is starting to smell a little like the Ich Attack medicine which, if you've never tried it, is quite nausea-inducing.

Rick


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

DAY 6 of Ich Attack and 86 degrees. Still white spots on the rams, and the weakling tetra has got it pretty bad. Maybe the lack of new white spot on the corys or the other tetras, and the improvements on the BN pleco should be taken as evidence of the free-swimmers being effectively zapped? Am I still in the 'normal' zone for timeline of treatment?

I'll keep plodding along then.

Rick


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

If the temp was high enough to prevent the ich lifecycle, you'd stop seeing symptoms within 3 or 4 days. Some ich can survive 90 degrees. I'd suggest medication or salt. Do some research on how much salt is needed and which fish may be sensitive to it. I had good luck Quick Cure. You can probably go with 50%. Neons may not like it so much, though.

If the fish are not in a quarantine tank already, get one, even if it is just a 10g with an airstone and daily water changes. You have a lot more medication options that way.

Speaking of air stones, you should use one in any tank you treat with heat, and also with many common ich medications like Quick Cure.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Thanks cjp. That's the kind of feedback I'm looking for - whether this is "normal". Please note that I have been using medication *and* high temps from the beginning. The medication is called Ich Attack, by Kordon.
DAY 7: The 2 rams and one tetra still have varying degree of white spots. The one female that developed a growth (fungus?) behind her left eye on day 3 still has it - it's bigger actually, and there's another growth under her lower "lip" which has a cottonball quality to it.

The Ich Attack says it treats diseases caused by Ich, Fungus, Protozoans and Dinoflagellates so I thought it would help. The instructions say "for severe infections the daily treatment can be increased by 50-100%. So that's what I'm going to try for two more days. If that doesn't show results, I might have to run out and get salt and try that method?

cjp - you suggested a quarantine tank, but my understanding is that if you've got ich you've got to treat the whole tank anyway because of the little buggers in the substrate or plants. I could try to catch all the fish and move them to a quarantine tank and treat them, and let the ich die out in the main tank, and use other treatment options as you suggest because (I assume you mean) I don't have a mature filter to destroy or plants that would be damaged? But I'm afraid that catching the fish would add a stress factor that might cause more harm than good.

As far as other meds, I used clout in a quarantine tank on the three new tetras who brought the ich, after I noticed it on them. They all died within 6 hours from the stuff and of course they had already dropped some ich into the main tank in their 24 hours or so that they were in it.

Finally, rasetsu and Laura Lee both suggested Pimafix for after I was done with the Ich Attack. But given the fungal infection on the ram, what do you think? I could a) wait; b) add it to the main tank while still treating and hope to help with the fungus/cottony growths on the ram, or c) catch the ram (still with ich), place in quarantine and treat with pimafix and Ich Attack in another tank, but risk stressing the ram.

Rick


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

isaisepny said:


> Thanks cjp. That's the kind of feedback I'm looking for - whether this is "normal". Please note that I have been using medication *and* high temps from the beginning. The medication is called Ich Attack, by Kordon.


I'm not sure how effective Ich Attach is, but it sounds like it is not working for you.


isaisepny said:


> DAY 7: The 2 rams and one tetra still have varying degree of white spots. The one female that developed a growth (fungus?) behind her left eye on day 3 still has it - it's bigger actually, and there's another growth under her lower "lip" which has a cottonball quality to it.


Are you sure you have ich? Cottony patches, especially around the mouth or on the back, is usually Columnaris, something I've been dealing with recently. If it is stringy, then it probably is a fungus that may have resulted from damage or weakness caused by the ich.



isaisepny said:


> The Ich Attack says it treats diseases caused by Ich, Fungus, Protozoans and Dinoflagellates so I thought it would help. The instructions say "for severe infections the daily treatment can be increased by 50-100%. So that's what I'm going to try for two more days. If that doesn't show results, I might have to run out and get salt and try that method?
> 
> cjp - you suggested a quarantine tank, but my understanding is that if you've got ich you've got to treat the whole tank anyway because of the little buggers in the substrate or plants. I could try to catch all the fish and move them to a quarantine tank and treat them, and let the ich die out in the main tank, and use other treatment options as you suggest because (I assume you mean) I don't have a mature filter to destroy or plants that would be damaged? But I'm afraid that catching the fish would add a stress factor that might cause more harm than good.



You'll probably need to treat all the fish, but if you remove the ones showing symptoms, you'll probably get a handle on things faster. Also, a quarantine tank gives you a very clean environment to work in; ie. no gravel for the parasites to hide in. You also have more treatment options. Although you have no plants or filter to worry about, a quarantine tank will let you use meds that stain, and also would let you separate fish that maybe can't all be given the same treatment. For example, moving all the live bearers to a brackish tank should quickly get rid of the ich, and also would help deal with any external wonds on the fish.


isaisepny said:


> As far as other meds, I used clout in a quarantine tank on the three new tetras who brought the ich, after I noticed it on them. They all died within 6 hours from the stuff and of course they had already dropped some ich into the main tank in their 24 hours or so that they were in it.


Having all the tetras die within that short of a amount of time after the meds were added sounds like the meds you used may not have been a good choice for the fish type, or you overdosed.



isaisepny said:


> Finally, rasetsu and Laura Lee both suggested Pimafix for after I was done with the Ich Attack. But given the fungal infection on the ram, what do you think? I could a) wait; b) add it to the main tank while still treating and hope to help with the fungus/cottony growths on the ram, or c) catch the ram (still with ich), place in quarantine and treat with pimafix and Ich Attack in another tank, but risk stressing the ram.
> 
> Rick


I'm not sure when/what meds for secondary infections should be given. Hopefully someone else has an answer.


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## rasetsu (Oct 11, 2007)

I would double the dose of Ich Attack and also start the salt treatment at the same time. The salt will help ease the fungal infections too. I don't see a point in setting up a QT at this time. No sense in exposing/treating two tanks.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Thank you again for the input and advice. Here's where things stand and the not-so-good news.

DAY 8: Last evening I double-dosed the Ich Attack. I also put in some Pimafix to see what might be done for the female ram with the fungal growths. I had no appropriate salt, nor experience with salt, plus have gotten mixed advice on the benefits vs the impact on corys and tetras so was hoping to put off that decision while seeing if the double-dose helped.

The female ram was dead this morning. I could speculate on the cause (increased dosage of meds, new pimafix - at least no salt suspicion) but really she had been going downhill with the growths and was not eating as vigorously last night. 

Current ich status: some white spot on the BN Pleco (though less than last week), still no ich evidence on the corys; I think there's less ich on the weakling tetra, and a few spots on a second tetra - the other three still seem ich-free; and the remaining (male) ram still has white spots.All fish are acting normally and eating normally.

Plants seem to be tolerating the heat and meds OK. The dwarf Sag maybe is showing the only negative effects - yellowing blades; and the java moss is fine but (maybe coincidentally?) seems to be getting entangled with some stringy grayish algae. 

VACATION STRATEGY?
I will keep on with the double-dose of Ich Attack and the 86 degrees. I thought this might be better by the time I'm going on a 9 day vacation in a week - maybe not. I'm sure I can find some threads about vacation strategies regarding feeding or not feeding, and keeping up with meds and ferts, but any comments related specifically to the ich treatment duration beyond 14 days (which it will be by that time) would be helpful.

WATER CHANGE?
One question I have is whether a water change now (parameters are still good) would be beneficial (vacuuming up some baddies in the substrate and adding fresh water) or detrimental (stressful to the fish and reducing the concentration of a week's worth of Ich Attack). The water has a distinctively brown tinge (the color of the meds) and a bit of a smell by now, though the fish seem to have plenty of oxygen via the venturi valve on the filter and the airstone.
Rick


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

TRANSFER METHOD
Oh, one more thing - I was reading from Diana Walstad about the "transfer method" whereby you take all the fish and move them to a clean aerated, heated tank for 24h, then to another one for 24h, then back to the re-cleaned one, etc, thus breaking the cycle that way and allowing the main tank to also break free.
Seems like the main challenges would be:
1. the difficulty and resultant stress to the fish of trying to catch them all in a well-planted tank with rocks, driftwood and all kinds of hiding spots (probably the tetras would be the hardest)
2. the impact on the filter of a fishless (although still planted) tank for 3 or 4 or 5 days. 

Otherwise seems like a brilliant and med-free solution. Thoughts about this or any experience with it?
Rick


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Consider raising your temp 1 degree every few hours to 87 or 88. You need the added boost. Stop pimafix right now, it is good but should be used after. Continue with ich attack.

I might recomend some very large water changes, with enough meds to replace. This is sometimes used to help reduce the free floaters.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Thanks. 
DAY 9: Yesterday I took over_stocked's advice and raised the temperature slowly to 88 degrees. Had to add a small 50W heater to the 75W already in the 20G tank to get the bump. I topped up the tank with about 1 gallon of fresh water but did not do a water change - water parameters are all 0 except nitrates are now at 5. 
For the 2nd day I double-dosed the Ich Attack. I am not noticing any new outbreaks of ich on previously uninfected fish. The ram still has white spots on his body but yesterday there were 6 or so on the tail which are gone today. So that's a positive sign. The two infected tetras also seem to have fewer spots. I don't see any ill effects of the higher temp except the BN Pleco is definitely less vigorous. Surprisingly, the albino corys seem as zippy as ever.

I do hope the spots go away completely within 2 more days so I can keep treatment up for an additional 3 and still get a water change in before I cease treatment, lower the temperature and go on vacation! I have no one who can do daily dosing while I'm away...

Rick


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## rasetsu (Oct 11, 2007)

Raising the temp slowly is good. Definetly stop Pima/Melafix as that should be done after ich treatment. 10% waterchanges 24 hours after Ich Attack is dosed would be nothing but beneficial. I would not transfer anything around as that is extra stress.

I would suggest aquarium salt at this point. On the back of the API aquarium salt carton, there's a dosage recommendation for treating fish disease. Just cut the dosage in half. I know the whole thing about corys and plecos not liking salt, but I've dosed up to the recommended amount on the carton (15ml per 5 gallons) with no visible affects on the fish. The positives of a small amount of salt outweighs the possible negatives, IMO. Your plants will do fine with the half dosage too.

Ich generally does not show up on corys because of their scale/skin plates. It is probably in their gills though.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

So you're saying that a water change just prior to adding the next dose of Ich Attack is OK because the effectiveness of the medication has subsided by then? Gotcha.
I don't have API aquarium salt nor can I get to a LFS immediately. I do have some Kosher salt with no additives or iodide. How does that sound?


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Well, while I await any input on Salt, here goes:
DAY 10: 88 degrees for a couple days now, and double-dosing Ich Attack, while considering salt treatment. Things are definitely looking "better". I can count the number of spots on the fish which I couldn't do before - maybe 6-10 on the male ram; 3-6 on each of two tetras with 3 tetras spot-free; no visible spots on the cory (but rasetsu makes a good point that it may be in the gills or hard to spot). The black BN Pleco makes it easy to see about a half dozen spots. 
So the question is - is this as good as it gets? rasetsu seems to think to really knock it out I need to add the salt treatment. That may be the case. Going higher than 88 degrees (though no signs of stress, amazingly, among any fish) might be needed to finish off super-strains of ich. 

And finally, I leave in 5 days for a 9 day vacation.I increasingly believe that even after 14 days of treatment I will not feel too confident about stopping treatment, but I'm not sure I have that dedicated a friend/neighbor to provide daily ich treatments... should I start seeking one out?

Rick


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

isaisepny said:


> Well, while I await any input on Salt, here goes:
> DAY 10: 88 degrees for a couple days now, and double-dosing Ich Attack, while considering salt treatment. Things are definitely looking "better". I can count the number of spots on the fish which I couldn't do before - maybe 6-10 on the male ram; 3-6 on each of two tetras with 3 tetras spot-free; no visible spots on the cory (but rasetsu makes a good point that it may be in the gills or hard to spot). The black BN Pleco makes it easy to see about a half dozen spots.
> So the question is - is this as good as it gets? rasetsu seems to think to really knock it out I need to add the salt treatment. That may be the case. Going higher than 88 degrees (though no signs of stress, amazingly, among any fish) might be needed to finish off super-strains of ich.
> 
> ...


No, this is not as good as it gets. You need to completely get rid of symptoms, and continue to treat for a period of time afterwards. With temp at 88 degrees, I'd feel fairly confident that treatment could cease after 4 days of no symptoms, although I'd probably wait for 7 days, allowing time for 2 full ich life cycles to pass without me seeing any signs of it.


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## rasetsu (Oct 11, 2007)

Treatment can not be stopped until ALL spots disappear. Once they are gone, you are supposed to still treat for 2-3 days to kill the free floaters.

Yes, water changes right before retreatment is good because it gets rid of free floaters.

I believe epsom salt from the pharmacy works. Do a search for dosage. Aquarium salt can be found at Petsmart, Petco and I think even Wal-Mart. If you have no brick and mortar resources for salt, then maybe order from Drs Foster and Smith and pay for express shipping.

If you will be gone for several days and are not sure if you've erradicated the ich, maybe look into installing a cheap in-tank UV sterilizer. Petsmart has a good unit that I run. It's called Green Killing Machine or something like that.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You don't want to use epsom salt, that's potassium-based (good for constipation, but not for killing ich...) Kosher salt would work. The "normal" ich treatment dose is one tablespoon per gallon of water- I've successfully used 1/2 to 1 teaspoon per gallon of water with salt sensitive fish (tetras, catfish, etc).

I'd personally finish out the Ich Attack until just before you leave- then do a 50% water change, and then I'd try the smaller salt dosage to help "clean up" while you're gone. The salt will not only help against any remaining ich, but can also help prevent 2ndary infections.

I'd skip the Mela/Pimafix since you're going to be gone and not able to dose it daily the way it's needed. The salt will remain in the water and not decrease in effectiveness.


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## rasetsu (Oct 11, 2007)

lauraleellbp said:


> You don't want to use epsom salt, that's potassium-based (good for constipation, but not for killing ich...) Kosher salt would work.


Thanks for the clarification!!


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> You don't want to use epsom salt, that's potassium-based.


Magnesium-based, not potassium-based. It's MgSO4·7H2O. You may be thinking of potassium chloride, which is used as a water softener salt for people that don't want the extra sodium you get from drinking water softened with sodium chloride.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Alright, thanks. 
DAY 11: Took rasetsu's advice and did a 10% water change - felt so good to vacuum up a little, especially with a BN Pleco! Then I double-dosed Ich Attack. As of tonight, I can see NO spots on the ram for the first time. 3 spots on one tetra, down from many spots on several. And I can see two spots on the BN Pleco's snout - hard to see if there are any on the fins right now. So, definite improvements. We'll see if these last ones drop off and no new ones appear. That would be good timing - I could continue treatment three more days.
I like lauralee's idea of adding salt after a major water change, before I go away. I'm amazed how well the fish are doing in 88 degree water! I am wondering if I shouldn't leave the temperature at 88 degrees while I'm away if that will be an added insurance policy against ich return?


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

BTW, are you using an air stone? Higher temps reduce O2 levels, as do most ich meds, so an airstone is recommended.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Yep. An airstone, as well as the venturi valve on my power filter going full throttle. From what I understand, low oxygen is a big concern with high temps so thanks for checking. Haven't noticed any heavy respirating or surface gulping and with everyone feeling better, their behavior is - to my eyes - identical to their 79 degree behavior.

Rick


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

cjp999 said:


> Magnesium-based, not potassium-based. It's MgSO4·7H2O. You may be thinking of potassium chloride, which is used as a water softener salt for people that don't want the extra sodium you get from drinking water softened with sodium chloride.


ROFL magnesium/potassium- you know, those "ium" elements are all the same, right? :icon_redf:hihi:


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

DAY 12. I noticed a white growth behind the male ram's right eye today. It's small but it almost looks as if I can see more of it under the translucent scales. Given that the female ram had an eye growth like that and died after about 5 days, this is probably not a good sign. Otherwise, I can see only 1 white spot on one tetra's fin, and maybe one white spot on the ram's side.


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## Avianwing (Dec 15, 2009)

I had the same problem when i introduced Black neons to my tank about 3 weeks ago. I noticed spots in 2 on the 2nd day. Soon it spread to all the black neons and even to my cherry barbs. I removed them all and put them in a bucket and added a table spoon of salt and about 2-3 ml of malachite green and let them be there for 3 hours before returning them to the tank. 

The ich seemed to have disappeared within 2 days. But now I have again noticed one black neon having the white spots. I am wondering what to do. The temperature is on the high side between 28-30 centigrade.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Avianwing said:


> I had the same problem when i introduced Black neons to my tank about 3 weeks ago. I noticed spots in 2 on the 2nd day. Soon it spread to all the black neons and even to my cherry barbs. I removed them all and put them in a bucket and added a table spoon of salt and about 2-3 ml of malachite green and let them be there for 3 hours before returning them to the tank.
> 
> The ich seemed to have disappeared within 2 days. But now I have again noticed one black neon having the white spots. I am wondering what to do. The temperature is on the high side between 28-30 centigrade.


Are you saying it disappeared about 3 weeks ago and just came back?


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## Avianwing (Dec 15, 2009)

Yes! I did the treatment on 23rd Jan, 4 days after i had bought the fish from the shop and when i noticed it had spread to many more fish. By around 27th Jan, all the black neons were spotless(pardon the pun) but again yesterday I noticed one fish showing symptoms of weakness and minute spots on the body.


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## rasetsu (Oct 11, 2007)

That's because ich goes through life stages and there were either still free swimmers in the tank or they were in the gills of the fish. This is why I don't bother QTing fish with ich and just treat the entire tank for the full recommended course of treatment. For the one spot of ich you see on a fish, who knows how many are already in the water. 

The spot you see is not the actual parasite. It's a cyst from where the ich has burrowed under the skin to feed off the fish and when that cyst "disappears", that means that it's popped like a pimple and hundreds of little ich are in the water looking for another host. It's at this point that the salt, heat, meds, or whatever can kill it the easiest.

Wild caught fish will often have some ich because ich is everywhere. It's not really an issue because one or two spots won't kill a fish and the fish has a whole lot more territority to move around in. The water is also being moved around and refreshed constantly. In a tank enviroment, the ich just keep attacking the same fish over and over again.


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## Avianwing (Dec 15, 2009)

Hmm The only medicines I have with me are Malachite green and Methylene blue and my cannister filter has carbon in it. I heard that treating the whole tank is bad if only few specimens are infected. My cherry barbs seem perfect now and so are the 7 black neons. Now should I just remove this one guy or treat the whole tank and if the latter, how?


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## rasetsu (Oct 11, 2007)

Avianwing said:


> Hmm The only medicines I have with me are Malachite green and Methylene blue and my cannister filter has carbon in it. I heard that treating the whole tank is bad if only few specimens are infected. My cherry barbs seem perfect now and so are the 7 black neons. Now should I just remove this one guy or treat the whole tank and if the latter, how?


I personally have no experience with malachite and methylene because both are bad for inverts and plants. I used to treat with Coppersafe before I had a planted tank which I think is methylene. I would definetly remove the carbon as that filters out the meds. I just go with the heat/salt method or Ich Attack if it's a big out break. Because I'm overstocked now, I just run a UV 24/7.

Like I said before, if you are already seeing visible signs (the white spots) then that means that ich is already in the water so what's the point in QTing? So you cure one guy but that's why it keeps coming back. Ich is not a bacterial or fungal infection where isolating sick fish is best because the meds may kill off the good bacteria too. The treatments that target parasites like ich generally do not affect the beneficial bacteria in the tank.


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Avianwing said:


> Yes! I did the treatment on 23rd Jan, 4 days after i had bought the fish from the shop and when i noticed it had spread to many more fish. By around 27th Jan, all the black neons were spotless(pardon the pun) but again yesterday I noticed one fish showing symptoms of weakness and minute spots on the body.


Well, that's only 4 or 5 days between last symptoms and new symptoms, not 3 weeks. Your original treatment was not at all affective. You need to treat for a minimum of 4 days assuming a temp of 80+ degrees, but should really treat for a weak after last symptoms are seen.

Existing ich spots always go, even without treatment. This is part of the ich lifecycles. It grows very big on the host, drops out into the gravel, multiplies(divides), and then enters the water column looking for new hosts. This life cycle averages about 4 days, but varies greatly depending on temp.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Hi,
Good luck Avianwing. I hope my "ich journal" here helps with the understanding that it takes a while, and continuous tank-wide treatment, to break the cycle...

I don't mean to hijack the thread back, but I just want to wrap up the "journal" and solicit any last advice before I go on vacation.

DAY 13: The ich appears to be completely gone! One white spot I thought was ich on the dorsal fin of a tetra appears to be something else. The fin itself is torn from the back and this white spot is larger and has been there awhile. Any guesses? Will the salt I put in before I leave for vacation in two days do any good on that one?
My main concerns are for the male ram. Per my earlier entry, he had developed an eye issue. It really is different looking from the cottony growth the killed the female and grew *behind* her eye and on her mouth. This is really more of a white line that runs *along* the top of the eye, making it appear to bulge out. Pop eye? I have no idea. Here's a picture, slightly blurry but conveys the point I hope.

Any advice? My plan is to do another 10-15% water change and redose (double strength) with Ich Attack, and keep at 88 degrees F for another couple days. Wrap up Ich Attack, do 30-50% water change. Add salt. Then my questions include:
1. Drop temperature before going on vacation or keep it up since fish are not showing stress?
2. Add salt or wait until Ich Attack treatment and high temperature is done?
3. Anything else to be done for the male ram? What might he have?
4. Anything else to be done for the neon tetra? Salt bath?

Thanks,
Rick


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

I don't mean to make you worry during your vacation, but I'd feel pretty uneasy about leaving my fish unattended for nearly 9 days after what they've just gone through, and given their current condition.

I think leaving the tank at 88 degrees is a concern. It may save you from further ich problems, but just because it does not appear to be causing the fish stress does not mean that it is not introducing long term problems or damage. Otherwise we'd always keep our tanks at 88 to avoid ich. I don't know all the types of fish you have and their comfort level is, but I wouldn't advise leaving them outside of their comfort level for more than is necessary.

Some of your fish still have some ills. No telling what this might turn into while you are gone. If the fish dies and is left in the tank, you can see an ammonia spike that puts all the other fish at risk, not to mention the further spread of disease. If ich comes back, you'll have a tank full of dead fish when you return.

As for salt, it should help your fish to heal (maybe even solve the Ram's problem) and remain healthy, but it is not a cure all. I would use it, but wouldn't consider it enough to ensure the fish will be ok.

Can you get someone to stop by while you are gone and tend the fish. If so, what I would advise is:


Have someone check for dead fish each day and immediately remove them.
Keep you current heater in the tank at the current 88 degree temp, but unplug it. Buy a 2nd heater, and set it for something more reasonable. If the person tending your fish sees ich, then they just need to plug the 88 degree heater in. No need to fiddle with temp adjustments. You can also instruct them on adding ich meds.
An alternative to this is to keep the 88 degree heater plugged in for a couple days after you leave, and then have whoever is watching the fish lower it a bit each day. No 2nd heater in this case.

Use salt. Not knowing the salt tolerance of your fish, I'd say 1 tbs (tablespoon) per 5g. If you have salt sensitive fish, you may need to go as low as 1 tsp (teaspoon) per 10g.
Do a couple of big water changes. Most of us do 50% changes once a week, and the fish love it. If done properly, it won't bother fish, even if they are sick. Just re-add water slowly, and make sure you aren't affecting the tank temp as you do.
Chris


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## rasetsu (Oct 11, 2007)

I agree with cjp999's advice about a fish sitter and salt dosing. 

As for the temp, I would drop it to 85 to keep any remaining ich at bay. My fish have been okay with 85 for weeks in the summer. I've never had rams though.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Thanks so much for replying Chris and rasetsu - I wish you were my neighbors!
DAY 14: I will take all your advice and call in some favors from neighbors. The dead rotting fish ammonia spike is a big risk; I only had arranged one mid-week visitor for a check and feeding...hard to train someone to scout a tank for a missing fish (they seem to find very private, hidden places to die) but I'll do my best. I already have two heaters in the tank so your advice about unplugging the second one and dropping the main one down a few notches seems like a good compromise.

Definitely a careful 50% water change before I leave.

I'll let you know the results back here when I return.

Rick


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

They don't need to look for the live ones, just the dead ones, which usually aren't too adept at being stealthy. :icon_conf


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Hi,
DAY 25: On Day 15 in the morning I did a 40% water change and a good vacuuming, then added some salt per the earlier recommendations. This is in the hour before I was to leave on vacation. The corys seemed the most affected - they immediately hunkered down at the bottom, as if they were tryin hard to keep from floating. I got a little concerned and did a quick 10% water change to reduce the already low salt levels. Then it was time to go.

I was able to have someone come on day 17, day 19, and day 21 to feed and check. When I spoke via phone on day 21, I asked them to turn on the light (it was morning) to check for the (I assumed to be) dead ram, which she didn't find. I then specifically asked her to turn the light back to the "timer" position.

So, guess what? When I returned at 11pm on day 24, the lights were on, snails were everywhere and the Val was shredded up. The light had been on continuously for 84 hours! So far, the other plants are not showing adverse signs - should I assume things will get worse before they get better? Other plants include echinodorus, dwarf sag, cabomba caroliniana, anubias, and java moss. The moss was filled with a gray "dustball"-like algae which was covered in snails.

A major water change and trimming later, things seem OK. I took the val down a lot and hope it will rebound.

And the good news - other than the already eye-infected ram, I did not lose any additional fish, and see no signs of ich on anyone.

Meanwhile I set up a second filter in my son's tank before we left, and freed up a 5 gallon tank that can be fitted with the spare bio-ready filter when I need a quarantine tank! So, now I should be ready to do this right with the next fish. 

Any last thoughts or plant advice per the above?

Rick


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## cjp999 (Nov 18, 2008)

Glad to see things worked out well...with your fish at least. I don't have much to recommend with the plants, except to prune out whatever looks really bad, as long as you don't need to prune too much. As for the gray stuff, looks like the snails are taking care of it.


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## isaisepny (Nov 15, 2009)

Just a follow-up note for those of you reading about Ich Attack:
This stuff does leave quite a residue of brown sludge in the filter. Everywhere.
First I cleaned the impeller and thought I was clever. But the power of my filter just didn't seem what I remembered. It got worse over a few weeks, too weak even for the venturi aerator to work, even while I took the filter apart two more times and cleaned out all the pads (I have a Fluval U3 internal power filter). Finally I took the whole thing completely apart. For some reason I had not bothered to check the box with the ceramic media. It had chunks of brown skins all over, clogging the media itself and more directly clogging the intake into the box, which was probably major hold up number one. Finally I flushed out the outlet tube which seemed to have an endless supply of the brown stuff no matter how many times I kept turning the flow tube. 
I think I've got it now, but just wanted to advise anyone who got this far in the reading to do a thorough filter cleaning after the treatment.


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