# Using Molasses for Plant nutrition ??



## Acen (Oct 2, 2012)

Just had an idea that came to mind regarding the use of ferts. The concept being that all organic Carbon based lifeforms need mineral nutrients to thrive. Duhh... Ok so its possible that we have all the plant nutrients we need somewhere in our homes in one state or another.

Recalling that after my spouse increased her Iron store while pregnant with our daughter using ONLY Blackstrap molasses to well above the required level in less than a week to the amazement of all the Pro's. 

I figured why not try this on our plants? After all the Plantains Blackstrap Molasses has 20% Iron, 20% Calcium and 600ppm of Potassium and host of micros all organic from a plant based source.. Anyhow i stumbled on this link that confirms its use and repackedging under a sudo name brands by a host of gardening company's and retailers. As well as its use in gardening substrates as a chelater.

I have yet to try this in my tanks but the basic rationale of carbon lifeforms and minerals is enough to remove much of the mystery and fear regarding household FOODs being used for Aquarium/Gardening. The next step is understanding amounts to some degree so as to monitor dosing.

If anyone has experience or input regarding the topic please share
this is just one example.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

What would be the advantage of using a complex compound, that cannot be controlled (i.e. each batch would be chemically different), compared to using dry fertilizers which can be carefully controlled and monitored?


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Very interesting idea. With the added of laboratory support to understand concentration levels, you would have to experiment with dilution ratios.

Maybe you would start with one tablespoon dissolved in 8oz of boiling water. Then maybe dose @ 1 drop per gallon in your test tank. For the test to be fair you need two identical tanks, a test and a control tank.

I'm very interested in the all organic approaches. If you decide to move forward please consider a journal.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

You'll probably create a lot of unwanted issues as well like cloudy water or slime/ bio film on everything due to increase bacteria growth.

Oh, this isn't new. Some liquid carbon supplements in Europe use complex sugars.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

mistergreen said:


> ....Oh, this isn't new. Some liquid carbon supplements in Europe use complex sugars.



It's new to me :wink:

I find it an interesting topic.


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## flc (Sep 10, 2012)

*Experimental Design*



DogFish said:


> Very interesting idea. With the added of laboratory support to understand concentration levels, you would have to experiment with dilution ratios.
> 
> Maybe you would start with one tablespoon dissolved in 8oz of boiling water. Then maybe dose @ 1 drop per gallon in your test tank. For the test to be fair you need two identical tanks, a test and a control tank.
> 
> I'm very interested in the all organic approaches. If you decide to move forward please consider a journal.


If it were up to me, I'd cut dividers out of plexiglass to split the tank up into 64 sections, and lay out the controls in a Latin Square to minimize parametric noise. With around 20 runs or so, it'd be pretty close to having publication quality data. (With only two comparisons, your results will be no better than anecdotal) Put in an equal amount of plant mass into each section and then weigh what comes out at the end. Something that's easily friable, like moss would probably work best. You'd have to make sure you standardized your water between runs to control for fluctuations in trace elements and mycorrhizal flora in case you're using vascular plants as your test organism.

As for standardizing the active ingredient concentrations- you could determine maltose concentrations fairly easily in a Gas Chromatograph. Many local testing labs (i.e. drug testing) would probably do this for you at around $30 a sample. I wouldn't bother with less than three samples a shot, with one of the samples having an already known concentration as a check to make sure the lab is actually doing the testing properly. 

That said, comparative saccharide utilization has been thoroughly hammered out with the advent of radiolabeling in the 1930's, 1940's, and 1950's. Most any textbook on general or plant biochemistry (e.g. Lubert Stryer), botany (e.g. Peter Raven) or a review article (e.g. Berg et. al.) should have the information the original poster is looking for. Failing that, a google DOI search or book search (Try: light independent Calvin Cycle reactions) would probably turn up similar results.

When it comes to chelation of oxidized transition metals at physiological pH, polysaccharides (which are weak poly-alcohols) are orders of magnitude less efficient than weak ionized organic acids like citrate or butyrate. Any appreciable chelation effects from blackstrap molasses probably has more to with stabilizing agents (commonly Ascorbate or EDTA in food) and breakdown products of molasses than the actual molasses itself.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Just off the top of my head...

Plants do not use complex molecules. 
Anything locked up in complex molecules needs to be broken down (usually by microorganisms) into molecules the right size to enter the plant. Plants take in molecules with just a few atoms: Ammonia, nitrate, nitrate, phosphate and so on. 
During this breakdown carbon may be produced, so here is the source of CO2. 
As the molasses breaks down the minerals that were bound to the sugars may be utilized by the microorganisms, but that is OK. Keep on following the route and eventually they will end up in the plants. 

I think I would inject the molasses into the substrate where there is the greatest concentration of decomposer organisms. 

Control tank: No molasses. 
Test tanks: several different amounts of molasses injected once: x, 2x, 3x. Spread out the injection into many parts of the tank. (This may mean diluting the molasses to get enough to inject in many scattered locations)

Second run: 
Control tank: The best of the above (one time injection)
Test tanks: Inject that much several times at spaced intervals:
Once daily, once weekly, once monthly. (I can see this test running on a while)

Third run:
The best of the above, (frequency of injection) but inject some or all of the molasses into the water column. 
Control: Inject it all into the substrate. 
Test tanks:
Inject 25%, 50% or 75% into the water column, the rest into the substrate. 

To figure out what works best weighing the new growth of the plants ought to be enough, though analyzing the plant material might be helpful. In fact we are looking for good growth in the tanks, we do not really care what the leaves are made of. Weighing can be done at home, do not need expensive lab results.


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## magnum (Jun 23, 2011)

Diana said:


> Just off the top of my head...
> 
> Plants do not use complex molecules.
> Anything locked up in complex molecules needs to be broken down (usually by microorganisms) into molecules the right size to enter the plant. Plants take in molecules with just a few atoms: Ammonia, nitrate, nitrate, phosphate and so on.


I'm no expert but about EDTA? This is how plants absorb insoluble iron and magnesium.


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## vnghost (Sep 21, 2012)

alot of people use blackstrap molasses as a sweetner when growing organic fruits and vegetables. usually a tablespoon to a gallon of water. the sugars feed the bacteria in the dirt and is uptaken by the roots of the plants.


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## Acen (Oct 2, 2012)

+1 Diana
"I think I would inject the molasses into the substrate where there is the greatest concentration of decomposer organisms."

I too beleive this would be the most rational starting point, or as an additive to the filter media to boost bac populations.

i noticed the effectiveness of seachem iron, which is Fe Gluccanate! Many dose gluconate for faster uptake of Fe. Black strap molasses is a carb/sugar also that should be immediately absorpable by most life forms, plants incuded..


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

It is my understanding that chelated minerals act like this:

Chelated means linked to a chemical in a way that the minerals can change from one location to another. They are loosely bound to that chemical. If they are near other minerals and other chelating materials then the minerals can swap places. 

When you add chelated fertilizer to the substrate it can do one of three things:
1) The mineral that is attached can get swapped for some other mineral in the substrate. The original mineral may then get locked up in the soil, not available to the plant. 
2) The mineral may be located close to a plant root, with its attendant microorganisms. Whether it is the microorganisms or the plant is not important, but the plant or the microorganisms add something to their surroundings that knocks the mineral off the chelator, then the plant gets the mineral. The plant is not actually taking in the chelator. 
3) A microorganism not related to the plant might get the mineral, but then this microorganism may die, and leave the mineral in an available form for any of these options to happen over and over again. 

Adding things to the soil that are too large for the plant but might be a good source of nutrients or energy for microorganisms is a good idea. I think this is what is happening when molasses is added to water or soil. Even in a hydroponic set up there are bio films with many microorganisms living on all the damp surfaces, and they can make use of sugars that may be too large for plants. Some of the byproducts of the bio film make their way out into the water, and these may be molecules the right size for plants. The plants can have microorganisms growing on their roots, stems and leaves, too.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Works just as good as ferts taste on flapjacks.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

A big issue with any carbohydrates used for CO2= the aerobic metabolism requires what specifically? 

Hint, when you eat Molasses, what do you need to burn it?

There's not a lot in the aquarium and fish also need it as well.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> ...any carbohydrates used for CO2...


This is true even when leaves or whatever are getting used as source material for the carbon part of CO2. 
I am not sure anyone is suggesting using so much molasses that it would reduce the oxygen level that much. Of course that means not much CO2 produced, too.


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## magnum (Jun 23, 2011)

I see what you are saying Diana, and I totally agree with you. A process I am more familiar with (which I know is a bit off topic) shows how methanogenic and sulfate reducing microorganisms precipitate dolomite cements in conditions that otherwise inhibit dolomitization. The microorganisms I am referring to work in a similar fashion to the ones you described.


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## Acen (Oct 2, 2012)

From my understanding the molasses should actually produce MORE oxygen due to the High iron(which attracts 0). 
If this is true then the wouldnt the micro organism and plant roots benefit from the increased oxygen? even in a C02 enriched aquarium as the C02 my not be as effective below the substrate?


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## Acen (Oct 2, 2012)

Also the carbs/sugars makeup of the molasse is only 1 aspect of the whole, the primary nutrients would be found in the Trace mineral content which is very similar but MORE extensive then say CSM+B or most Micros on the shelf, which is why it is used in general gardening.. The TRACE. In precise doses i think this could outperform many sudo Branded products.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

xmas_one said:


> Works just as good as ferts taste on flapjacks.


Have you done a controlled test on this? With a random sample of people to get a variety of taste buds involved? And, which specific ferts did you test? We have to be rigorous in our testing before making such paradigm shifting assertions.:flick:


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## Wy Renegade (Nov 29, 2011)

Now you have me curious, I've been using a "orchid" fert for the last couple years that I kept thinking was molasses. The "fert" is recommended as a foliant spray and is being used to prevent the blackening edge effect on thin-leaved varieties. Its also proven to greatly improve the flowering of some specimens such as the brassia varieties. Going to have to pick up some molasses and see if it is indeed the same. The recommended ration for use as a foliant is a drop per ounce, and at that it turns the water a murky brown.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Does the Orchid Fertilizer smell or taste like molasses? 

Land plants often have large enough openings in their leaves, called stoma, that can take in slightly larger molecules than the roots. Perhaps the Orchid Fertilizer is exactly the right size molecule to do that.


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## Wy Renegade (Nov 29, 2011)

To be honest, I've never had the nerve to taste it, but the smell and stickiness are very similar.

I've never given much consideration to how it got into the leaves, but your thought does make sense. I've been trying to figure out for some time what it might be, I even went looking for molasses in the cupboard once to see, but we didn't have any.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I sure would not taste it either. Just going along with the joke about molasses or fertilizer on pancakes. 

When I use some ferts (usually dry ferts in the garden) I do seem to taste them. Maybe I am getting a bit of the dust in my mouth. Not fun! The high iron products like Ironite are pretty bad.


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## bikinibottom (Nov 18, 2012)

Since our planted tanks have a lot in common with aquaponics, I did a quick google search to see if anyone in aquaponics has been using molasses as a fert. Here is one article I found:

http://farmerbrownsaquaponics.blogspot.com/2011/01/molasses-iron-chelator.html

Not sure it proves anything, given that the person didn't have clear evidence that the system was deficient of iron, nor a clear plan of how much to dose and for how long, but their conclusion was that it did not work.

Someone else wrote that they tried a cup of it (yeah, a lot) in a 250-gallon aquaponics set-up and that the bacteria growth clogged the pumps. Seems that a bloom this big might be bad for the fish (drop in dissolved oxygen).

But people do use it in their gardens it seems, although it seems to be used in conjunction with other fertilizers.

Would make an interesting experiment, that's for sure!


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## flc (Sep 10, 2012)

A few random facts loosely connected to the thread:

Chelation comes from the greek word Chelos, meaning "crabs claw". Naked transition metals (like Ferrous and Ferric iron) are hard to import into cells, including root hair cells. It's a lot easier when it's already got an organic acid stuck to it (chelated)- at that point, they can come in through dedicated systems, or as a free ride along with carbon uptake systems.

Most organisms, including plants, animals, bacteria, and archae have entire systems devoted to nothing other than making chemicals that are excreted, latch onto the metal, dock on the cell surface, and convince the cell to pull it into the cytoplasm.

The maltose (molasses) in soil amendments is there strictly to make symbiotic bacteria happy. The plant itself does nothing with it.

Most soil environments are are microaerobic to anaerobic, especially on a microscopic level where water (bound by surface tension and its viscosity to soil particles) prevents free oxygen diffusion. Plants compensate by extracting oxygen from the soil whenever they can with heme based oxygen scavengers such as leghemoglobin. Rotifers, bacteria, and other single cell organisms pretty much just use oxygen on an opportunistic basis. Polysaccharide utilization by bacteria does not need oxygen- if it did, most yeast fermentation wouldn't work and most symbiotic bacteria wouldn't associate with roots, especially in trehalose dependent symbiotic systems.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Diana said:


> This is true even when leaves or whatever are getting used as source material for the carbon part of CO2.
> I am not sure anyone is suggesting using so much molasses that it would reduce the oxygen level that much. Of course that means not much CO2 produced, too.


Exactly............so why bother adding sugar, molasses etc? We are not carbon limited, plants, healthy ones, leach about 10% of the total fixed photsynthate. That's a pretty large amount of Carbon.

We are not really getting a lot out of any of this.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

something i think i will experiment with


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## thelub (Jan 4, 2013)

hmmmm very interesting read. Makes me want to just add straight blackstrap to the soil of my next tank. :icon_mrgr


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

xmas_one said:


> Works just as good as ferts taste on flapjacks.


If I had some Flourish I would try it on my flapjacks tomorrow. Since I don't I will have to stick to maple syrup.

While I think playing around with various fertilizers can be fun, I don't see that there is a problem to be solved by doing so - other than boredom. Fertilizing per the EI method, using KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, and a GH builder and trace mx is so easy and effective that a better use of our experimenting effort would be with CO2 and dissolved oxygen. But, those who enjoy working with fertilizers aren't doing any harm either, so carry on:biggrin:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Hoppy, like myself, many folks have to prove things to themselves, no amount of talk or posting will change that social issue, and those are the smart folks who question everything. Some have to learn via experience, it can be painful, but we do learn by making mistakes. But, at some point, they keep repeating the same mistakes, well.........

Dosing sugar was suggested along with this stuff by Roger Miller almost 2 decades ago on the APD mailing list. I get a tickle when the reef folks bicker over dosing vodka and other organic reduced carbon forms. They are more interested in removing some of the strong carbon limitation for the bacteria, not a source of CO2. 

Sugar + O2= CO2 and energy and the bacteria, not the plants will take up most of the sugar.

No way around that. Traces, well add more trades, chelated DTPA Fe etc, that seems wiser than growing a larger bacterial colony that requires more O2 which will drain the O2 avail for other things like microinverts, fish and the bacteria in the root zones.

Our tanks are not Carbon limited(reduced carbon), so the bacteria gain little by adding it, and only grow an excess population, which often leads to a milky haze and cloudy water. I tried table sugar, sucrose, but did not add much years ago. Did it help? No.

Did it help other folks?
No.

If enough tried it, do you think correlation alone would produce enough people to claim it did?

Probably.


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