# New Guy Has a Question About Substrate



## dorf007 (Mar 30, 2017)

Hi everyone,

I'm the new guy here today.

I FINALLY made the commitment to go all out and buy a new tank and "plant" it.
Long story short...I need to set up my tank and I know I want to plant it but (and here is my question) *what is the best substrate to use* ?
I'd like something with nutrients in it so my plants do well but price is a factor, so is availability.
I would greatly appreciate your wisdom and input. I want to start this tank off right.

Thanks dorf007 
aka Rick

PS I have a 46 gal bow front and I will post pictures of my build

PPS I live in the Great White North aka Canada


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

If you have the $$$ ADA Amazonia. If you decide on this I know a distributor in Toronto that will ship anywhere in Canada.

Dan


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

Yes,the absolute best is Amazonia, then Brightwell, most of the "soil" substrates are very good, but pricey.
Then you have the best non-bank breaking substrates. These are Blasting sand, Pool filter sand, Eco-Complete and Flourite.


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## dorf007 (Mar 30, 2017)

Thanks for the help.
Buying in Canada will cut way down on shipping.
Any idea of the price of Amazonia ?
And why is it the "best" for a planted tank ? I'm still learning.

Bump: Is it "soil/dirt" or like sand ?


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

dorf007 said:


> Thanks for the help.
> Buying in Canada will cut way down on shipping.
> Any idea of the price of Amazonia ?
> And why is it the "best" for a planted tank ? I'm still learning.
> ...


its enriched soil specifically for aquariums I will Pm' you the link but fair warning it does carry a bit of a price tag.

Dan


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

dorf007 said:


> Thanks for the help.
> Buying in Canada will cut way down on shipping.
> Any idea of the price of Amazonia ?
> And why is it the "best" for a planted tank ? I'm still learning.
> ...


Amazonia is $40 for 9 liters.
It is soil pellets, so there are little balls of hardened soil that it is made out of, just google it and you will see what I mean.
It is the best because it has a ton of nutrients and buffers the water. Although, it is a terrible choice for a low-tech tank because it has so much nutrients, that it causes algae in less than high-tech conditions


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

Amazonia, if you have to ask the price you can't afford it. It's an old joke but it's a seriously expensive substrate. The "best" is way to subjective. All the substrates have pros and cons and it depends a lot on what you want to do. Soil type products (Amazonia) are expensive and change your water chemistry, inert substrates need nutrients added, capped dirt substrate can be messy, particularly if you like to move stuff around. A lot depends on the look you want from the substrate and what you plan on growing. There is no one perfect substrate for everyone.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

It does have its challenges at first and you won't be able to stock fish for probably atleast a month. I suggest you read up on it as much as possible before purchasing to ensure its what you want. its $46 CAD a 9L bag from the link I sent you.

Dan


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

You can do a dirted tank to


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

If they have 'builders supply' sellers in Canada and see if you can find masonry sand or the fines from concrete aggregate gravel or mix. Washed river sand is another source. Do you have an especially clean river nearby? ( Please, don't use tar sands..:surprise


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## dorf007 (Mar 30, 2017)

Wow ! I have learned more on this first thread than I ever knew about planting a tank.
There seems to be a great wealth of knowledge on here and I intend to mine it like my daughter at a thrift store looking for her next great treasure.

At $40 9L it is not cheap but could be worth the "investment". I only want to set this tank up ONCE !

"Washed river sand is another source. Do you have an especially clean river nearby? ( Please, don't use tar sands..)" GrampsGrunge....yes we sure do have some great clean creeks and rivers here with hardly any tar in them...lol


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## MtAnimals (May 17, 2015)

I really like miracle gro organic choice potting mix with a blasting sand cap.everything 
I put in there seem to grow like crazy.Plus it's low cost.not sure about long term,as I've only used it in 2 tanks for about a month and a half.5.49 for a 9 liter bag of soil,and 9 bucks for 50 pounds of sand is tough to beat.

I've never used ADA products,I'm sure they do very well.Just can't bring myself to spend 50 bucks on a 9 liter bag of dirt.

Plants grow better in dirt then they do in rocks.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Dman911 said:


> If you have the $$$ ADA Amazonia. If you decide on this I know a distributor in Toronto that will ship anywhere in Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> Dan




Is that stuff high in ammonia? Was reading the reviews on Amazon and one stated as such. How much does it lower your ph?


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## marks_01 (Jan 4, 2017)

I have about 1" Ada Amazonia topped with 1-5 inches eco complete, sloping in places. This works well but if I could do it over again I'd like to try organic miracle grow with sand. Or maybe just a deeper soil layer with not as much eco complete on top. I never had an issue with ammonia coming from the Amazonia, but that would be a good thing as it would make it easier to (fishless) cycle your tank with needing to add ammonia from the hardware store.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

clownplanted said:


> Is that stuff high in ammonia? Was reading the reviews on Amazon and one stated as such. How much does it lower your ph?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My tap PH is 7.6 Amazonia buffers it down to about 6.5 then my Co2 drops it to about 5.5 but I cannot read it below 6 with my test kit. It also lowers your KH like crazy mine is 1 and almost anything I do will not raise it since I was concerned about PH crash with such low KH. But I have accepted it and after some research have no worries about it.

Yes it does leech ammonia and not a little bit. It leeches a lot over the first month or a little longer depending on water changes. So it cycles your tank for you. During the first month plants are ok but not fish because of this. In fact plants love ammonium and with the low PH and high ammonia content of the soil there is no shortage of it. I did a DSM with mine and as soon as I flooded my tank after 6 weeks it was instantly cycled (see tom barrs DSM with Amazonia on his website) The amount of water changes you need to do when not doing DSM and just flooding your tank are very high like 50% every day for the first week if I remember correctly then gradually smaller. I have no complaints about it but each to their own some think its worth it others do not.

Dan


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Dman911 said:


> My tap PH is 7.6 Amazonia buffers it down to about 6.5 then my Co2 drops it to about 5.5 but I cannot read it below 6 with my test kit. It also lowers your KH like crazy mine is 1 and almost anything I do will not raise it since I was concerned about PH crash with such low KH. But I have accepted it and after some research have no worries about it.
> 
> Yes it does leech ammonia and not a little bit. It leeches a lot over the first month or a little longer depending on water changes. So it cycles your tank for you. During the first month plants are ok but not fish because of this. In fact plants love ammonium and with the low PH and high ammonia content of the soil there is no shortage of it. I did a DSM with mine and as soon as I flooded my tank after 6 weeks it was instantly cycled (see tom barrs DSM with Amazonia on his website) The amount of water changes you need to do when not doing DSM and just flooding your tank are very high like 50% every day for the first week if I remember correctly then gradually smaller. I have no complaints about it but each to their own some think its worth it others do not.
> 
> Dan




Crazy. Not something you want to change to in existing tank with fish already. That would be bad for sure. 1kh is not something I would want to deal with. My next tank substrate will probably be miracle grow organic choice topped with white sand. Great info Dan thanks for sharing. 


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

clownplanted said:


> Crazy. Not something you want to change to in existing tank with fish already. That would be bad for sure. 1kh is not something I would want to deal with. My next tank substrate will probably be miracle grow organic choice topped with white sand. Great info Dan thanks for sharing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


KH and GH don't really effect plant growth my dgh is 4.5 and dkh 1. I don't keep shrimp but I think its even ok for them but not sure about that.

Dan


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Someone asks for the best substrate, specifically looking for something that contains nutrients, and no has mentioned dirt yet?

Where my other dirt people at?

Dirt is very inexpensive and has the added benefit of releasing CO2 into the water column. I'm pretty sure Aquasoil does not release CO2.
You can keep just about any high tech plant you want in dirt, no pressurized CO2 required (though a pressurized system will improve growth and color). Just make sure you have a good cap! I cover my dirt with a thin layer of dried leaves and then cap that with 1" pool filter sand.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Dirt releases Co2? like in measureable quantities? I'm not sure I would attempt high tech plants that usually require moderate to high Co2 without having such. Plants may grow but I would be concerned about plant health and creating a good environment for algae. I agree you can grow plants in lower light and Co2 than is suggested but there are more things that need to be considered than just planting any high tech plant in dirt and saying it will grow.

Dan


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Dman911 said:


> *Dirt releases Co2*? like in measureable quantities? I'm not sure I would attempt high tech plants that usually require moderate to high Co2 without having such. Plants may grow but I would be concerned about plant health and creating a good environment for algae. I agree you can grow plants in lower light and Co2 than is suggested but there are more things that need to be considered than just planting any high tech plant in dirt and saying it will grow.
> 
> Dan



So you start by confessing that you were unaware that dirt releases CO2, and then go on to speculate that dirt is probably not capable of sustaining high tech plants. With all due respect, please do a little research before spreading misinformation about a subject in which you yourself have admitted ignorance.

Dirt is a substantive source of CO2. I am yet to find a high tech plant that does not thrive in dirt. As I mentioned before, you might not be able to attain certain leaf shapes and color, but they will certainly outcompete algae.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Bananableps said:


> So you start by confessing that you were unaware that dirt releases CO2, and then go on to speculate that dirt is probably not capable of sustaining high tech plants. With all due respect, please do a little research before spreading misinformation about a subject in which you yourself have admitted ignorance.
> 
> Dirt is a substantive source of CO2. I am yet to find a high tech plant that does not thrive in dirt. As I mentioned before, you might not be able to attain certain leaf shapes and color, but they will certainly outcompete algae.



On the contrary you may want re-read my post I stated you could but there are more factors involved and plant health would probably suffer to an extent. Carbon and Co2 are not the same so can you please provide me some data showing dirt provides Co2? The questions I asked you still have not answered I didn't make the claims bud... you did and all I hear is a lot of spouting and no data. Prove to me dirt in any way shape or form creates a measurable amount of Co2... not Carbon.

With all due respect its not just dirt but all substrates that plant health could (not will) but could suffer. it has nothing to do with the substrate it has to do with light Co2 and nutrients

Dan


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## dorf007 (Mar 30, 2017)

WOW...I thought this was going to be a easy question to answer. It seems there are as many opinions as there are sub substrates.
With the wealth of knowledge on here, it looks like I may just go with a dirt tank.

Now this question....what, if any, issues would I have cleaning the tank ? And how soon could I introduce fish ?


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Dirt is a good choice. You will probably benefit from adding some ferts tabs to the substrate. Being careful when planting, vacuuming and keeping fish that aren't diggers will help keeping from stirring things up to much. I would suggest capping it with something like sand. You will want to wait until your tank is fully cycled before introducing fish I suggest looking up fishless cycling.

Dan


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

You would want to wait before adding fish. Most likely you will have high ammonia for a bit while it leaks out. I would wait a month and do lots of water changes and lots of ammonia and nitrate checks. 


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Once you have nitrates in control, nitrite 0 and ammonia 0 you will be good. 


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

@Bananableps my ignorance is still waiting for an explanation of how soil provides Co2

Dan


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## puriance (Feb 19, 2017)

dorf007 said:


> WOW...I thought this was going to be a easy question to answer. It seems there are as many opinions as there are sub substrates.
> With the wealth of knowledge on here, it looks like I may just go with a dirt tank.
> 
> Now this question....what, if any, issues would I have cleaning the tank ? And how soon could I introduce fish ?


I too am from the great Western Coast, and confronted these exact same issues. 

I went for a dirted tank with both of my tanks, and then capped them. I say the cap depends on what you want the tank to look like if you're going to go the dirt route anyways. 

I picked up a bag of "locally bagged" additive free (but-not organic) soil from Rona. I bought fluorite from petsmart, and pool filter sand from Canadian tire.

The fluorite I bought because of how it redistributes nutrients, and used it in my larger tank. Although, I then picked a carpeting plant (dwarf hairgrass) that will have some trouble establishing itself because of the course substrate. This limits my bottom dweller choices too, because of their sensitive barbells. So even though I want cories, I can't get them until the hairgrass grows in, which will take forever because of the texture of fluorite. I will be hooking up CO2 (once my diffuser finally shows up) so that will help it along, but it is a game of patience right now.

For my small nano tank, it is purely aesthetic. I have a dirt layer capped with the quartz pool filter sand, that will not have CO2 since it is on my desk. There is a small amount of hairgrass in this tank too, but the main focus of this tank is lowlight plants.

Basically, if you're going to go dirt, and fertilize as is needed, the cap can be whatever you want in my opinion. Decide what you want your tank to look like and then make the call from there.

Just my $.02 

As for adding fish, do a little more reading (there is always more reading) on the nitrogen cycle, and let us know if there is anything you want explained. There are a lot of opinions on the best procedure, but the consensus is, fishless cycle.

Patience is the name of the game in this hobby.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> @Bananableps my ignorance is still waiting for an explanation of how soil provides Co2
> 
> Dan


Bump @Bananableps still waiting!!! You didn't think after calling me ignorant and stating I'm spreading misinformation (which I disagree with both and feel you are spreading misinformation) that I wouldn't call you out on it?

Dan


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## johnson18 (Apr 29, 2011)

Bananableps said:


> Someone asks for the best substrate, specifically looking for something that contains nutrients, and no has mentioned dirt yet?
> 
> Where my other dirt people at?
> 
> ...


Did you actually read the thread? I suggest post #9....





GrampsGrunge said:


> Washed river sand is another source. Do you have an especially clean river nearby? ( Please, don't use tar sands..:surprise


I wouldn't suggest this unless you're willing to bake your river sand. There's no way to control the introduction of unknown pests, bacteria or other things you don't want to get in your aquarium. To use river sand and prevent this your best bet would be to bake it a fairly low temperature for a long period of time to kill any unwanted things living within it.


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## SubstrateSource (Apr 20, 2011)

Tropica Aquarium Soil should be readily available in Canada.


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## japbart (Feb 25, 2014)

Dman911 said:


> Bump @Bananableps still waiting!!! You didn't think after calling me ignorant and stating I'm spreading misinformation (which I disagree with both and feel you are spreading misinformation) that I wouldn't call you out on it?
> 
> 
> 
> Dan




I'm waiting too. Lol


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Dman911 said:


> Bump @Bananableps still waiting!!! You didn't think after calling me ignorant and stating I'm spreading misinformation (which I disagree with both and feel you are spreading misinformation) that I wouldn't call you out on it?
> 
> Dan


I think my post got deleted? I swear I responded to this ages ago.

Just go read Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. Or any printed guide on dirted tanks. I'll try to remember to send you same page numbers when I get home.

UPDATE: Until I get home, search "CO2" on this page: https://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Walstad_method
This is basic stuff, the burden should not be on me. Where do you think aquatic plants get CO2 from in the wild? Why do you think tanks with higher bioload have more CO2? It's not from fish exhaling a lot. It's from decomposing mulm. Dirt is basically less toxic, more biodiverse mulm. As it decomposes, it releases CO2. I think it's completely absurd that so many people are demanding that I prove that decomposition releases CO2. It's like, biology 101. Seriously no idea what happened to my previous very long post about this.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Bananableps said:


> I think my post got deleted? I swear I responded to this ages ago.
> 
> Just go read Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. Or any printed guide on dirted tanks. I'll try to remember to send you same page numbers when I get home.
> 
> ...


This Co2 you speak of happens in every aquarium not just soil and is negligible not substantial. In the wild Co2 levels don't get depleted like they do in an aquarium because of the sheer volume of water and gas exchange going on. Co2 is released at night when the lights go out and in fact not due to the soil but rather soil respiration this is due to the plants not soil this does not helps plants during the day one bit. Hell nitrifying bacteria consume oxygen and give off Co2 but these negligible and are not a replacement for the Co2 requirements of a high tech tank not even remotely close. These levels are so minute its ridiculous to state with dirt no Co2 is needed for high tech plants. Further the exchange of gases towards the equilibrium does not allow this process to build up Co2 since it is so minute leaving you with 2-3ppm of Co2 in the morning that will be quickly consumed in a high tech tank. You made the statement then called me ignorant and said I was giving misinformation. I say its the other way around. Walstad method is for low light tanks and I think it is misinformation to say all its principles or this one for that matter apply to high tech tanks. Just plain false.

Added: this decomposition thing is ridiculous too its the bacteria that do the decomposing that give off Co2 (super minute amounts) but this also leads to ammonia etc. and before any real measureable amount of C02 was released like this your fish would be long gone. 

Dan


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Dman911 said:


> If you have the $$$ ADA Amazonia. If you decide on this I know a distributor in Toronto that will ship anywhere in Canada.
> 
> Dan


Hi dorf007,

Actually, you have a very nice ADA distributor right there in Vancouver, BC; ADA Aquasoil 9 liter size for $49.99 Canadian - 176 bags in stock
Since ADA products come from Japan it is likely cheaper locally than in Toronto.

Miyabi Aqua Design Ltd.
Address #139 - 7080 River Road, Richmond, B.C. V6X 1X5
TEL+1 604 227 2600 / +1 604 218 3138 

Website: Miyabi Aqua Design | Nature Aquariums and Aquascapes


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

Some facts I work with that may or may not help you with your substrate choice.

Plants need water, light and nutrients.
You don't need substrate to grow plants.
Dirt does not grow plants better than rocks.
Finer substrates are typically easier to plant in.
If you have a proper substrate and circulation and you put ferts in the water column, they get to the roots.
If you have a proper substrate and circulation and you put ferts in the substrate they get in the water column.
If you put in dirt with nutrients, root tabs, or nutrient rich substrate you will have to add less nutrients or none for proper growth. You also loose control of your dosing. If you add nutrients daily with and inert substrate you can cut them back at any time


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Dman911 said:


> This Co2 you speak of happens in every aquarium not just soil and is negligible not substantial. In the wild Co2 levels don't get depleted like they do in an aquarium because of the sheer volume of water and gas exchange going on. Co2 is released at night when the lights go out and in fact not due to the soil but rather soil respiration this is due to the plants not soil this does not helps plants during the day one bit. Hell nitrifying bacteria consume oxygen and give off Co2 but these negligible and are not a replacement for the Co2 requirements of a high tech tank not even remotely close. These levels are so minute its ridiculous to state with dirt no Co2 is needed for high tech plants. Further the exchange of gases towards the equilibrium does not allow this process to build up Co2 since it is so minute leaving you with 2-3ppm of Co2 in the morning that will be quickly consumed in a high tech tank. You made the statement then called me ignorant and said I was giving misinformation. I say its the other way around. Walstad method is for low light tanks and I think it is misinformation to say all its principles or this one for that matter apply to high tech tanks. Just plain false.
> 
> Added: this decomposition thing is ridiculous too its the bacteria that do the decomposing that give off Co2 (super minute amounts) but this also leads to ammonia etc. and before any real measureable amount of C02 was released like this your fish would be long gone.
> 
> Dan


Apologies, still haven't been home yet, will have those page numbers for you soon. Chapter 6 of Diana Walstad's book, Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, goes into great depth on CO2 from decomposition in both nature and aquariums. Decomposition creates gaseous CO2 as well as dissolved organic carbon, both of which are used by aquatic plants. Aeration reduces CO2 in a dirted tank, proving that the tank is not getting CO2 from the atmosphere (if atmosphere was the source, aeration would increase CO2). Regarding your comment that CO2 is not depleted in nature, there's even a subchapter specifically titled "Carbon's Scarcity in Natural Freshwaters". Again, I highly recommend you find a copy of this book that you can look through before you trash talk dirted talks, because you seriously don't know what you're talking about. I wish I could rattle off citations from the top of my head, but I can't, and I've been in a library for about 12 hours every day this week so I have not had a chance to find them for your myself. 

I also just wanted to reiterate from my original post that I have never had any problems with high tech plants in dirt, and you can't chalk that up to CO2 from fish mulm because I keep a very low bioload. Walstad's pdf on shrimp keeping even describes keeping HC in dirt (though this can be a little tricky for technical reasons related to the dirt cap + HC's tiny roots). Show me a list of high tech plants and I'll tell you which ones won't grow in dirt.

I honestly don't remember exactly how, but it is my understanding that in a well cycled aquarium with healthy substrate, dirt, leaves, wood, and other low entropy organic matter breaks down almost immediately into nitrates rather than into ammonia. 



Dman911 said:


> I think it is misinformation to say all its principles or this one for that matter apply to high tech tanks. Just plain false.


I never said that. I do not claim to know anything about how to apply Walstad techniques to a high light, pressurized CO2 system. My only claim is that dirt provides enough CO2 to keep a large variety of high tech plants alive. I'm sure there might be a handful of plants that might not work in dirt, but I haven't heard of them yet. The problem with the burden of proof you are asking of me is that I can't prove the absence of something.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Bananableps said:


> Apologies, still haven't been home yet, will have those page numbers for you soon. Chapter 6 of Diana Walstad's book, Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, goes into great depth on CO2 from decomposition in both nature and aquariums. Decomposition creates gaseous CO2 as well as dissolved organic carbon, both of which are used by aquatic plants. Aeration reduces CO2 in a dirted tank, proving that the tank is not getting CO2 from the atmosphere (if atmosphere was the source, aeration would increase CO2). Regarding your comment that CO2 is not depleted in nature, there's even a subchapter specifically titled "Carbon's Scarcity in Natural Freshwaters". Again, I highly recommend you find a copy of this book that you can look through before you trash talk dirted talks, because you seriously don't know what you're talking about. I wish I could rattle off citations from the top of my head, but I can't, and I've been in a library for about 12 hours every day this week so I have not had a chance to find them for your myself.
> 
> I also just wanted to reiterate from my original post that I have never had any problems with high tech plants in dirt, and you can't chalk that up to CO2 from fish mulm because I keep a very low bioload. Walstad's pdf on shrimp keeping even describes keeping HC in dirt (though this can be a little tricky for technical reasons related to the dirt cap + HC's tiny roots). Show me a list of high tech plants and I'll tell you which ones won't grow in dirt.
> 
> ...


Where do I start... I think you need to read that book a bit more.

1. I have addressed your statement about decomposition already.

2. Quote " Aeration reduces CO2 in a dirted tank, proving that the tank is not getting CO2 from the atmosphere (if atmosphere was the source, aeration would increase CO2)."

Fact: Aeration will either raise or lower Co2 levels in your tank depending on the current concentration of Co2 as it tries to reach the equilibrium. During the photo period plants use Co2 how much depends on light and nutrients but its safe to say that in almost any planted tank the concentration of Co2 is lower during the photo period and thus aeration would increase the levels of Co2. The opposite would happen when the lights are off. As I stated the amount of Co2 is so small that aeration (gas exchange) when the lights are out would limit the Co2 from building up.

3. I'm not trash talking dirted tanks, I am disputing your claims about hi tech plants if you use a dirted tank.

4.You keep a very low bioload and yet there is this mulm buildup in your tank that supplies you with all this Co2? OK makes sense SMH.

5.Quote "I also just wanted to reiterate from my original post that I have never had any problems with high tech plants in dirt, and you can't chalk that up to CO2 from fish mulm because I keep a very low bioload. Walstad's pdf on shrimp keeping even describes keeping HC in dirt (though this can be a little tricky for technical reasons related to the dirt cap + HC's tiny roots). Show me a list of high tech plants and I'll tell you which ones won't grow in dirt."

You just don't get it!!! Its not about dirt!!! You can keep any hi tech plant in dirt or any substrate for that matter but its not the dirt that provides them enough Co2, light and nutrients to grow healthy!!!

6.Quote "I honestly don't remember exactly how, but it is my understanding that in a well cycled aquarium with healthy substrate, dirt, leaves, wood, and other low entropy organic matter breaks down almost immediately into nitrates rather than into ammonia."

Seriously with all this other info your claiming you don't understand off the top of your head how nitrifying bacteria work?

7.Quote "I never said that. I do not claim to know anything about how to apply Walstad techniques to a high light, pressurized CO2 system. My only claim is that dirt provides enough CO2 to keep a large variety of high tech plants alive. I'm sure there might be a handful of plants that might not work in dirt, but I haven't heard of them yet. The problem with the burden of proof you are asking of me is that I can't prove the absence of something."

This is exactly what I was getting at by saying you can grow hi tech plants in dirt and low tech systems but plant health may suffer. Hi tech plants as well as any plant has recommendations based on the needs of the plants. If you are not able to meet the needs of the plant it may still grow but its health may be affected. 

My Quote "Dirt releases Co2? like in measureable quantities? I'm not sure I would attempt high tech plants that usually require moderate to high Co2 without having such. Plants may grow but I would be concerned about plant health and creating a good environment for algae. I agree you can grow plants in lower light and Co2 than is suggested but there are more things that need to be considered than just planting any high tech plant in dirt and saying it will grow."

You just blatantly state you can grow any hi tech plant in dirt without any account for light, nutrients and a poor account for Co2.

8.Quote " My only claim is that dirt provides enough CO2 to keep a large variety of high tech plants alive. I'm sure there might be a handful of plants that might not work in dirt, but I haven't heard of them yet."

And my claim is that is not all that needs to be considered or plant health could suffer.

One last time here dirt, aquasoil, sand etc. are not providing Co2. Yes some of the processes that go on in your substrate provide Co2 (in minute quantities) but this is not exclusive to dirt and saying Dirt provides enough Co2 for hi tech plants is false for the reason I just stated and even those processes in the substrate that do provide minute quantities can not be considered substantial as you claim. 

I think I'm about done with this conversation. If you haven't understood what I'm saying then you are not going to and that's ok, we are all entitled to our beliefs and opinions. However I would refrain from calling people ignorant and making accusations of misinformation and making claims if you don't want the burden of proof. Saying go read this book so I can try to find your argument for you because you don't know is kind of like saying "I have no idea what I'm talking about but I read something once and I think I know how it works"

Dan


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## dorf007 (Mar 30, 2017)

SubstrateSource said:


> Tropica Aquarium Soil should be readily available in Canada.





Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi dorf007,
> 
> Actually, you have a very nice ADA distributor right there in Vancouver, BC; ADA Aquasoil 9 liter size for $49.99 Canadian - 176 bags in stock
> Since ADA products come from Japan it is likely cheaper locally than in Toronto.
> ...


Fantastic !!!
Thank you.


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## Monrankim (May 28, 2016)

+1 on dirt


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## bonaparte (Feb 21, 2011)

puriance said:


> The fluorite I bought because of how it redistributes nutrients, and used it in my larger tank. Although, I then picked a carpeting plant (dwarf hairgrass) that will have some trouble establishing itself because of the course substrate. This limits my bottom dweller choices too, because of their sensitive barbells. So even though I want cories, I can't get them until the hairgrass grows in, which will take forever because of the texture of fluorite. I will be hooking up CO2 (once my diffuser finally shows up) so that will help it along, but it is a game of patience right now.


I'm setting up my first hi tech tank this week and this thread is very helpful - but I'd like to get more info about bottom dwellers and substrate.

I'm setting up a 75, and my plan was to cap Amazonia with Flourite. But if regular Flourite is dangerous for my cories (or my ancistrus or my red lizard whiptail) then I need a Plan B. I don't like the look of Amazonia so I want to cap it with something. Any suggestions? I was hoping for something dark, but not black like blasting sand.


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## puriance (Feb 19, 2017)

This is the same cap that I use, just in a darker colour (picture is a link). Not quite black, but holds the same properties. Is this along the lines of what you were looking for? What kind of bottom dwellers were you thinking about?


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## bonaparte (Feb 21, 2011)

Probably something redder, but I might go black like that. My bottom dwellers will be the usual suspects: cories and Pleco types. I've heard that Flourite is too sharp for many bottom fish so I'd like to avoid anything like that. 

Does anyone know if I'd have the same problem with calcined clay products, like Turface and Safe T Sorb?


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

bonaparte said:


> Probably something redder, but I might go black like that. My bottom dwellers will be the usual suspects: cories and Pleco types. I've heard that Flourite is too sharp for many bottom fish so I'd like to avoid anything like that.
> 
> Does anyone know if I'd have the same problem with calcined clay products, like Turface and Safe T Sorb?


There are also different types of ADA substrates such as Africana that is reddish, it does a have a bit less organic matter than Amazonia but may be worth looking at.

Dan


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

bonaparte said:


> Probably something redder, but I might go black like that. My bottom dwellers will be the usual suspects: cories and Pleco types. I've heard that Flourite is too sharp for many bottom fish so I'd like to avoid anything like that.
> 
> Does anyone know if I'd have the same problem with calcined clay products, like Turface and Safe T Sorb?


Hi bonaparte.

No, you will not have problems with Corydoras if you use Turface or Safe-T-Sorb. I use both substrates and have kept and bred Corydoras in those tanks for several years.


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## bonaparte (Feb 21, 2011)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi bonaparte.
> 
> No, you will not have problems with Corydoras if you use Turface or Safe-T-Sorb. I use both substrates and have kept and bred Corydoras in those tanks for several years.


That is the answer I was looking for. Thank you!


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