# Will bba recede on its own?



## Skillet (Mar 10, 2015)

I had an issue with my co2 but it's fixed now. When the co2 was messed up bba and some string algae started to grow on my plants and rocks. I've noticed that it's not spreading anymore and all new growth is free of algae. I was wondering if it will go away on its own as my plants start to take off or if I should get a cleaner crew to do it for me. The algae is mostly on my S. Repens and it won't be ready for a trim for some time.


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## Stone454 (Jun 1, 2013)

I would manually remove all that you can, then spot treat with h2o2


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## Skillet (Mar 10, 2015)

I've had bad luck with peroxide. Would excel work if I spot treated with it?


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## imcmaster (Jan 30, 2015)

skillet - I had the exact same scenario (messed up CO2 and BBA/Hair set in, then corrected and new growth was perfect).
I chose to not use any chemicals. In a few weeks everything was gone. But I also have ramshorn snails, amanos and ottos. I don't know exactly which helped the most. But I think even naturally without the crew you will be fine in a few weeks. Chemicals just probably speed things up.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

Skillet said:


> I've had bad luck with peroxide. Would excel work if I spot treated with it?


In bad luck do you mean disaster or it didn't work? H202 is both faster acting and less harmful unless a critter gets right into the stream. I'm talking spot treatment and not full tank (personally I do not get full tank H2O2 treatments, hard to see how they would work).

use something small like these for the job:





If you have a lot of current, turn it off. If you don't see it bubbling the algae, it probably means either your H2O2 is old and not active or it is quickly moving away from where you are applying it. If you do it right, you should see the algae bubble away and turn colors. Might need a couple treatments over two days and it will be gone.


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## Skillet (Mar 10, 2015)

ahem said:


> In bad luck do you mean disaster or it didn't work? H202 is both faster acting and less harmful unless a critter gets right into the stream. I'm talking spot treatment and not full tank (personally I do not get full tank H2O2 treatments, hard to see how they would work).
> 
> use something small like these for the job:
> http://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Transfer-Pipettes-Gradulated-Pack/dp/B005IQTSE0/ref=pd_sim_op_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1F5MY3TQ6C1H8Y4Y9QQ4
> ...


I melted my plants with it last time and I don't want to do that again. I do have some Ottos and was thinking about getting a Siamese algae eater to help clean up the mess but it's in a six gallon and I hate to just get a single Siamese.


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## Skillet (Mar 10, 2015)

imcmaster said:


> skillet - I had the exact same scenario (messed up CO2 and BBA/Hair set in, then corrected and new growth was perfect).
> I chose to not use any chemicals. In a few weeks everything was gone. But I also have ramshorn snails, amanos and ottos. I don't know exactly which helped the most. But I think even naturally without the crew you will be fine in a few weeks. Chemicals just probably speed things up.


Good to know. I have a few ramshorn snails and two Otto's. When the bba exploded, so did the green and brown film algae and they have been busy with that. I might get a Siamese algae eater to help out but haven't made my mind. I'm moving soon and won't have any access to a fish store (gasp) for several months so if it doesn't go away on its on I'll try the h2o2. Glad you had some luck with it going away. It gives me hope. Since I got my co2 working properly, my plants and algae are pearling like crazy. I know that I'm in that sweet spot so I hope these issues resolved themselves. I'm going by countless posts I've read by Tom Barr.


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

Skillet said:


> I had an issue with my co2 but it's fixed now. When the co2 was messed up bba and some string algae started to grow on my plants and rocks. I've noticed that it's not spreading anymore and all new growth is free of algae. I was wondering if it will go away on its own as my plants start to take off or if I should get a cleaner crew to do it for me. The algae is mostly on my S. Repens and it won't be ready for a trim for some time.


 Keep your co2 delivery consistent and bba will go away.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Plant parts that have had BBA growing on them are very unlikely to survive even if you do kill off the BBA. BBA leaves scars that don't go away. I think the best results are always when you remove BBA infested parts of plants, scrub it off of the hardscape, treat the remaining tiny spots of it with peroxide or Excel, then get the CO2 system to work right, increase your tank maintenance, and be sure you are not limiting the growth of the plants with nutrient shortages. And, if you don't need as much light as you now have, reduce it considerably.


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## Skillet (Mar 10, 2015)

Hoppy said:


> Plant parts that have had BBA growing on them are very unlikely to survive even if you do kill off the BBA. BBA leaves scars that don't go away. I think the best results are always when you remove BBA infested parts of plants, scrub it off of the hardscape, treat the remaining tiny spots of it with peroxide or Excel, then get the CO2 system to work right, increase your tank maintenance, and be sure you are not limiting the growth of the plants with nutrient shortages. And, if you don't need as much light as you now have, reduce it considerably.


Hippy, this is a question I've had for a while. How do you know when you have too much light. Are there any signs to look for?


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

I don't think there is a such thing as too much light. Indeed terrestrial plants are sometimes grown under 24/7 light conditions. It might not be the most optimal of course. I think if you had perfect water parameters, where nutrients and CO2 keep up with the pace the light intensity provides, and no fish or critters to torment with perpetual light, why would there need to be a dark period?

There may be evidence or a hypothesis that a dark period keeps algae controlled. But I would certainly look at studies on that before making a conclusion.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

ahem said:


> I don't think there is a such thing as too much light. Indeed terrestrial plants are sometimes grown under 24/7 light conditions. It might not be the most optimal of course. I think if you had perfect water parameters, where nutrients and CO2 keep up with the pace the light intensity provides, and no fish or critters to torment with perpetual light, why would there need to be a dark period?
> 
> There may be evidence or a hypothesis that a dark period keeps algae controlled. But I would certainly look at studies on that before making a conclusion.


It depends on what definition you use for "too much light". My definition is "the amount of light that makes the plants try to grow faster than their supply of carbon can support". If you can get enough CO2 in the water, without harming the fish, then you don't have "too much light". One sign that you do have "too much light" is BBA. BBA seems to start when you either have too little CO2 for the light you have, or you don't keep the concentration of CO2 in the water the same during every photoperiod. If you use pressurized CO2, set the bubble rate so it is the same every photoperiod for the entire photoperiod, you shouldn't get BBA unless you have too much light.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Do you think guys that BBA is caused uniquely by issues related to Co2, or other factors such as some sort of nutrient deficiency, or other? I am having BBA problems for well over 6 months now, and I have tried everything Co2 side, but no luck. I have pressurized Co2, and it looks consistent during the photoperiod... Here is a shot from my Apex:










And here is my 75gl planted tank:











Photoperiod starts at 2pm and stops at 9pm. Does the PH curve look ok to you? Any thoughts are very welcome!


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I think BBA is almost always started by CO2 problems - too little or not consistent day to day. But, once you have it, I'm not sure it reacts just to CO2 problems. Several people have convinced me that it also grows best when the tank maintenance is less than good - dirty glass, filter, hoses, etc. But, if the light intensity is low enough BBA will be a rare occurrence if it grows at all.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Hoppy said:


> I think BBA is almost always started by CO2 problems - too little or not consistent day to day. But, once you have it, I'm not sure it reacts just to CO2 problems. Several people have convinced me that it also grows best when the tank maintenance is less than good - dirty glass, filter, hoses, etc. But, if the light intensity is low enough BBA will be a rare occurrence if it grows at all.



How would you consider a light intensity of 50 PAR at the substrate? Low enough not to have BBA? That's my current light intensity.


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

fablau said:


> Do you think guys that BBA is caused uniquely by issues related to Co2, or other factors such as some sort of nutrient deficiency, or other? I am having BBA problems for well over 6 months now, and I have tried everything Co2 side, but no luck. I have pressurized Co2, and it looks consistent during the photoperiod... Here is a shot from my Apex:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


my CO2 graph looks very similar to yours. superstable during photoperiod. i start co2 4h before and end it 2h befor light to achieve PH fluctuation during protoperiod less than 0.2 points. needless to say, BBA problems are there, so i dont buy that whole "inconsisten co2" theory regarding BBA. im sure its true in most cases, but not in every. mine went awea when i backed light intensity by 50%, now growing intensity back slowly to get back that nice compact plant growth i had before


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I noticed more BBA in high tech tanks vs low tech for sure.


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## imcmaster (Jan 30, 2015)

dzega said:


> my CO2 graph looks very similar to yours. superstable during photoperiod. i start co2 4h before and end it 2h befor light to achieve PH fluctuation during protoperiod less than 0.2 points. needless to say, BBA problems are there, so i dont buy that whole "inconsisten co2" theory regarding BBA. im sure its true in most cases, but not in every. mine went awea when i backed light intensity by 50%, now growing intensity back slowly to get back that nice compact plant growth i had before


I think hoppy explained this. Is it correct to suggest that fluctuations are acceptable so long as the CO2 level does not drop below the required CO2, which is dictated by the light intensity?
As an example, suppose that you run at 70PAR and this translates to needing 25ppm CO2 to meet plant demand. It seems to me you can fluctuate between 25 and 30ppm of CO2, but not 15-25ppm CO2. Or even steady at 20ppm (because you need 25) would cause a problem.
If you did fluctuate between 15-25 and decreased light to now need 15ppm of CO2, you would have corrected the problem.
Maybe this is oversimplified.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

fablau said:


> How would you consider a light intensity of 50 PAR at the substrate? Low enough not to have BBA? That's my current light intensity.


I consider 50 PAR to be medium light at the lowest, where you can get by with just Excel as a carbon source, but you have to provide either CO2 or Excel or you will get BBA almost for sure. Remember, this is 50 PAR at the substrate level.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

I have 50 PAR at the substrate, but yet, I pump a lot of Co2 (70ml per minute) and BBA is always around....


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

fablau said:


> I have 50 PAR at the substrate, but yet, I pump a lot of Co2 (70ml per minute) and BBA is always around....


how is your water hardness?
what lights do you have? i mean spectrum wise. colors etc. 
does your light has soft start/ramp?
do you suffer from surface film?
in what portion of the tank does BBA develop?

sorry for all the question, i just want to take advantage of meeting a case where 'inconsistent or too low co2' is not the cause


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Does not have to be low or inconsistent CO2.
It can be poor distribution of the gas as well, combined with inconsistent delivery or too low a level for the lighting being used.
Does not much matter what level of CO2 is there if it is not being distributed throughout all of the tank before it escapes.
Conflicting flow working against flow from another direction,plant mass or decor blocking flow,maybe not starting the gas early enough (one to two hours before light's on),relying on pH controller to turn the gas on/off as per a set pH, when other acid's in the water could be affecting the pH , maybe not as much gas as you think/ need per lighting being used.
Add to this,perhaps insufficient nutrient delivery,dirty filter's, dirty CO2 diffuser's, dirty substrate,overfeeding, inability to determine how much CO2 they actually have ,and algae will take advantage of this type of enviornment . IME
I do not feel there is any one thing that trigger's algae of any kind ,but when I see it in my tank's,the first order of business is to reduce the light intensity until I can check and or correct other possible factor's.
I have seen the BBA in my tanks where there was no lighting,No CO2,no plant's, just large messy cichlid's and plecos.
I removed what I could manually,and stepped up maint .Cleaning filter's more often, or using more filtration,cleaning up the substrates,increased volume of water removed during weekly,maybe twice weekly water changes ( thus removing organincs and possible spores?), reducing the organic input by reduced feeding's.
Seem's the cleaner I kept the tank's,the less I saw of BBA.(I still practice this and work's for me)
I am of a mind that the gurus often point to CO2 as culprit for it is most difficult to keep tuned in truly a fluid situation where often lighting is fairly high.
In any event,they often suggest dialing back the lighting until such time as they can get everything dialed back in.
My opinion or 2 cent's.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Increased water changes is a formidable weapon against bba. Algae doesnt like water changes. 50% twice a week or 30% every other day will do wonders in the meantime while you figure out the problem.



fablau said:


> I have 50 PAR at the substrate, but yet, I pump a lot of Co2 (70ml per minute) and BBA is always around....


How's the circulation? From looking at your tank - assuming nutrients arent limited - I would not be surprised if it's a flow issue. As roadmaster pointed out, making sure the gas gets everywhere is just as important as how much you're putting in. Take a look exactly where the BBA is forming. Good chance it's worse in either a high flow or low flow area. 

50 PAR is not the problem. It's almost certainly a CO2 issue. My 75 is 130 at the substrate and there's no bba to speak of.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

dzega said:


> how is your water hardness?
> 
> what lights do you have? i mean spectrum wise. colors etc.
> 
> ...



My water is pretty hard, GH 13, KH 7.

Lights are 4 T8 fluorescent lights 6500k. No ramp or soft start. No surface film, I have. Strong surface rippling. I get most BBA where current is strongest.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

burr740 said:


> Increased water changes is a formidable weapon against bba. Algae doesnt like water changes. 50% twice a week or 30% every other day will do wonders in the meantime while you figure out the problem.
> 
> How's the circulation? From looking at your tank - assuming nutrients arent limited - I would not be surprised if it's a flow issue. As roadmaster pointed out, making sure the gas gets everywhere is just as important as how much you're putting in. Take a look exactly where the BBA is forming. Good chance it's worse in either a high flow or low flow area.
> 
> 50 PAR is not the problem. It's almost certainly a CO2 issue. My 75 is 130 at the substrate and there's no bba to speak of.



I really doubt the problem is Co2 or circulation, As I said, I have tried with more powerful pumps (over 12x turnover, very strong current) and there was not difference, no improvements. I see Co2 bubbles going everywhere, and BBA actually appears where current is strongest (!!) so, what does that mean in your opinion?

Also, could the fact my tank is 5 years old play a role in organic build-up?

Thanks.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I think organic's feed the stuff, but perhap's several other trigger's as well.
Would just keep harassing the stuff where I found it,keep filter's cleaner more frequently,increase size/frequency of water changes.
Eventually it will recede.
Would not be too tempted to tear down unless the stuff was at plague proportion's.
I have a four year old soil tank with maybe a fingernail size of the stuff growing on a piece of wood here or there or oddly enough,around the suction cup's for spray bar.
I just keep removing it when I see it along with the other measures I mentioned.
Would maybe not rule out CO2 till I moved drop checker around at different level's /area's of the tank over a few day's to see if reading's/color is consistent all over.


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

fablau said:


> My water is pretty hard, GH 13, KH 7.
> 
> Lights are 4 T8 fluorescent lights 6500k. No ramp or soft start. No surface film, I have. Strong surface rippling. I get most BBA where current is strongest.


same here. hard water, and BBA forms where current is the strongest.
removing organics helps without doubt, but its far from being cure.

i am now playing with co2 start time since im not sure starting 4h before light is best. maybe we actualy dont need 30ppm co2 available the second light kicks on..


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## Dead2fall (Jun 4, 2014)

I never had bba in any of my 3 tanks for years until I added some plants to my high tech from aquabid. Started to see some in the high tech a week later. A week after that, my other two tanks also had some bba. I'm wondering if it spreads itself airborn somehow. There's no cross contamination as each tank has its own set of tools.

I also wonder if it's potentially spread through feces of fish. Say you have an oto at the lfs that grazes over a bba infested leaf. It's sure to ingest some even if they don't necessarily target bba. Could they be dropping bba spore(or however it reproduces) laced fecal matter in our tanks?


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