# New custom LEDs in the making



## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

Before I talk about LEDs I would first like to introduce myself briefly because I am new here. I have always been into aquariums and reptile/frog keeping. I have a 90 gallon reef tank and a tropical greenhouse. I also keep dart frogs and love building vivariums. Building vivariums is actually what brought me here. I have always taken a lot of inspiration for my vivarium builds from pictures of beautiful planted aquascapes. 
here is one of my vivariums-


Vivariums and planted aquariums actually have a lot in common besides the fact that you guys flood your tanks. I plan on getting into the planted tank hobby eventually but will probably lurk around on the forum for some time to gain more knowledge.
One similarity between vivariums and planted tanks is lighting. I actually use LEDs meant for planted tanks for a lot of my vivariums. This brings me to the subject of this thread. 
For the past few months I have been communicating with some LED manufacturers in order to design some bulbs and fixtures for use in vivariums. I had some 60w par38s made in order to see what they were like. I have had them set up over a couple vivariums for a few months and the plants are already growing really well and coloring up. These first samples just included some red, blue, warm and cool white diodes. This is what they look like.




I am able to customize the bulbs with whatever color combination of LEDs I choose, wattage, beam angle etc. So my question is what LED combination do you guys think is the best to both optimize growth and coloration of plants as well as to make the plants look good in the tank? My second question is if anyone would be interested in using these bulbs in their aquariums? I feel like these bulbs could work great as a pendant light source either hanging or with a gooseneck. If I did start making these for other people they would probably cost 70-$75 for a 60w for example. I am also not limited to bulbs but would like to first get a really nice spectrum dialed in so I can try something similar on other style fixtures. Here is what I was thinking for LED combination.




So what do you guys think? What should I change as far as the combination of LEDs? And is there any interest in these or other style fixtures with a spectrum like this for use in planted tanks?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Did you mis-type the green 580-650 w/ peak at 520????
anyway "if" that is a green, personally skip it. Whites have plenty..
And greens are inefficient.. though they are working on it..








Besides the ends 475-525 is the "hole" in the whites.
Personal opinion.. Substitute for a different nm cyan
Many rave about the look of "lime" LED's but I've never used them. 
You never stated if you were limited by a brand or not..


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## Boreas (Jan 24, 2016)

What have you found for mounting these bulbs in a fixture? I imagine a bulb that large wouldn't work in any standard gooseneck fixture.

I'm planning on putting a few riparium plants (Aquarium with emersed growth) in my new tank. If I could find a way to mount something like this above, that would work very well.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> Did you mis-type the green 580-650 w/ peak at 520????
> anyway "if" that is a green, personally skip it. Whites have plenty..
> And greens are inefficient.. though they are working on it..
> 
> ...


Yes whoops I mistyped that nm range. It was supposed to be the range for lime green. I thought that lime green is made with a blue led with a phosphor so its more efficient. I had lime in the mix because I thought it would help balance the blues and reds while also adding some pop for the green plants. What two nm ranges of cyan would you use then? These bulbs are made with Osram chips but I may also be able to ask for Cree chips.



Boreas said:


> What have you found for mounting these bulbs in a fixture? I imagine a bulb that large wouldn't work in any standard gooseneck fixture.
> 
> I'm planning on putting a few riparium plants (Aquarium with emersed growth) in my new tank. If I could find a way to mount something like this above, that would work very well.


These bulbs are surprisingly light weight so I'm sure a standard gooseneck would support them. They are fan cooled so aren't all heatsink. Something like this would be good
http://www.no ebay links allowedca/...089749?hash=item3604b33e55:g:QWMAAOSwO~hXHy89
The ones I have right now are just hung from the ceiling.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

@jturner have you thought to use any full-spectrum LED's?

I use them in all my LED pucks now.
To not have such a pink light I combine 1:1 full spectrum with 10K white.
One green in every puck only to enhance viewing the plants.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

What do you mean by "full spectrum"? Maybe you could give a link to what you are talking about? There are no real full spectrum LEDs. Thats why I am using cool/warm white and filling in the gaps with other colors.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

jturner said:


> Yes whoops I mistyped that nm range. It was supposed to be the range for lime green. I thought that lime green is made with a blue led with a phosphor so its more efficient. I had lime in the mix because I thought it would help balance the blues and reds while also adding some pop for the green plants. What two nm ranges of cyan would you use then? These bulbs are made with Osram chips but I may also be able to ask for Cree chips.


Lime and PC amber are Luxeon chips.. 

LXML-PX02-0000 Lime (567.5nm) Rebel LED - 313 lumens

Not sure what is currently available by Osram, but it was fairly restrictive by color.
LED ColorCalculator by OSRAM SYLVANIA | LED news, LED knowledge, technologies, events

CREE doesn't do any cyan AFAICT.

Bump:


jturner said:


> What do you mean by "full spectrum"? Maybe you could give a link to what you are talking about? There are no real full spectrum LEDs. Thats why I am using cool/warm white and filling in the gaps with other colors.


Closest full spectrum are Yuji that uses a violet pump in some.
Largest emitters are 1/2W








Sorra uses a violet pump as well and is fairly full spectrum.
Large emitters (COB) but can't buy loose chips. Need to deconstruct them.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

jturner said:


> What do you mean by "full spectrum"? Maybe you could give a link to what you are talking about? There are no real full spectrum LEDs. Thats why I am using cool/warm white and filling in the gaps with other colors.


Weed growers use them exclusively, surprised not using some already in the vivariums?

https://www.bing.com/search?q=full+spectrum+led+grow+lights&form=EDGNTC&qs=AS&cvid=0e0873d4799d46229d448d24558a9e9c&pq=full+spectrum+led

I have noticed improved plant growth associated with using them on two aquariums.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> What do you mean by "full spectrum"? Maybe you could give a link to what you are talking about?


Bridgelux full spectrum:
Royal blue pump w/ a dual red phosphor..









For an idea of some companies "palette"..

SPECTRA

go to items and pick a company..


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

jturner said:


> What do you mean by "full spectrum"? Maybe you could give a link to what you are talking about? There are no real full spectrum LEDs. Thats why I am using cool/warm white and filling in the gaps with other colors.


 Plenty of full spectrum LED's being offered, and plenty of folk's growing plant's with them.
Near any bulb advertised as full spectrum will grow the plants just fine.
Only to our eye's/preference does it really matter.
Plant's,,not so much.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

Ok I think I worded that badly. Full spectrum is sort of a loosely used term. All it really means is that the light source covers the electromagnetic spectrum at least in the wavelengths that are visible to humans. I wasn't aware of any single white LED diode that effectively covers the entire spectrum similar to sunlight without having major gaps such as in the cyan area. I guess I was wrong in that yuji and soraa get really close. Has anyone used these in a fixture in their planted tank? 

Anyway I will be using cool/warm white LEDs which will no doubt grow most plants on their own. However these emitters do have some gaps in the spectrum. My goal is to fill in these gaps in order to both hit chlorophyl a and b, some of the accessory pigments which are often overlooked but are very important in photosynthesis, as well as to make the plants look good to the viewer. Most of the plants grown in vivariums and planted tanks will grow fine under solely white LEDs. But I have no doubt that making a fuller spectrum by adding in some missing colors would be even better. For example I have some more delicate orchids and other plants that only seem to grow with natural sunlight in my greenhouse. Whenever I put them under typical all white LED aquarium lights they just go downhill. Obviously there are other variables at play here but I feel as if all white LEDs are lacking areas of the spectrum that can very easily be added back to optimize plant health. 

The manufacturer that I am working with doesn't have many restrictions as far as what LEDs they have access to. What do you mean that Osram is restricted by color? The Osram color calculator software you linked only includes the generic LEDs by default but you can add in any custom emitter that you want and calculate a spectrum. I have actually been playing around with this software this past week and it has been very useful to get an idea of what combining these different emitters looks like in a spectrum. 

Sorry for the rant-
back to the main point. What would be the best LED combo to maximize plant growth, health, coloration, as well as make them look good to the viewer?


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

jturner said:


> Sorry for the rant-
> back to the main point. What would be the best LED combo to maximize plant growth, health, coloration, as well as make them look good to the viewer?


"make them look good to the viewer" here is the tough one since opinions are involved.
Always adapted to my LED builds. Some a little too pink, a little to green etc...

I have given up on UV emitters(under390nm), 3 brands and they never seem to last over 6 months.
Red for me why bother, after including full spectrum not really needed.
All WW around 2700K or 3000K have been short lived also.
Daylights of 5K or higher seem to achieve decent longevity.

What do you use for drivers?
Stuck on Meanwell LDD's now and group common forward voltages only (sort of leaves reds out).
Tried the separate driver per color thing and it becomes too much effort.

One PWM signal can run many LDD's.
Do you have a PWM controller in mind?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

I can only go off what I can find..
Osram doesn't even carry a deep red (660) or a deeper red (700nm)
http://www.mouser.com/OSRAM-Opto-Semiconductors/Optoelectronics/LED-Emitters/_/N-ec209?P=1z0j7dc


CREE just started carrying "photo red".. i.e deep red..well a few years ago. still no cyan..
New Cree XP-E colors: Photo Red & Far Red - LEDSupply Blog

Part of the point is.. AFAICT no one manuf. makes ALL colors in all affordable packages..

Luxeon really has a complete lineup except affordable violets..

That said.. what "looks good" and what optimizes plant growth/watt are 2 somewhat opposing goals.

And the separate color emitter lights, though great for some things (flexibility in look i.e able to dim ind. colors for "effect". Better at covering large areas in close confinements i.e few inches off the top of anything) it is becoming less necessary.
As COB manuf. tackle the well known inherent drawbacks of white LED's and shifted to high CRI (which will roughly translate to more "full spectrum).

I see more of a future in building around a COB w/ some added accent chips than on overall single emitters.
Case in point would be to add, say violets to a COB center based on chip such as shown below:
These "luxury" COBS sell for about $2/watt, are not "the most" efficient chips (current small emitters and some less tailored COBS are exceeding 100-160 Lumens/watt)
Efficiency comes into play because part of the story is not just spectrum but gross amounts of photons..If one can get more photons out of a lesser 'balanced" light, in general it will be the one best for growth.









At least where look and function need to be considered.

This is just an opinion... 
As to your orig. question, you pretty much know the correct thing re: ind. emitters.
As to a commercial product.. using "simple" 3W emitters isn't enough market separation (different than what the Chinese will bang out at 1/10 your cost..) for anything.

In my own dream of a both efficient and balanced light it would involve something like a large array of small violet based emitters in a 3:1(Yuji) ratio of high k and low k values on ind. channels.
at least for terrariums/aquarium type uses where lensing gets to be a problem..
5600K lensed COB of SORRA or Luminous Devices for "spots".

Again, not being negative, just trying to bring info and opinion..

Oh one more point of information. Some manuf are now making "dual" COB's w/ both warm and cool white on separate channels, allowing tailoring of output to ind. preferences.. 
They, unfortunately, are not the higher CRI (balanced) chips so still have some of the shortcomings of normal white LED's
Can't remember the name/company that manuf. them at this point.
Funny found one.. 
OSRAM:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...X-CHCL+NXNY-UW/?qs=BOkrsuhB%2bsro/BRiLtSzVQ==

Alibaba has some manuf w/ "dual output" COBS if I remember correctly.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Wonder what will be the verdict when and if a light fixture is developed that encompasses all of color's, of the spectrum and variant's that some deem necessary for optimal growth, and they're planted effort's are dwarfed by those using plain old full spectrum T5's,or T8's as evidenced by photo's.?
At least with old technology,one can mix and match bulb's at will and achieve their goal's.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Not going to happen unless tube research is resurrected from the dead.
Only thing plants care about are photons. Photo density/output is exceeding tubes on a w/w basis. Led directionality, though both a curse and blessing, is in LEDs favor.
Only possible advantage of tubes over led is the mercury emission line in the UV range.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> they're planted effort's are dwarfed by those using plain old full spectrum T5's,or T8's as evidenced by photo's


Man, that is a can of worms all by itself..











> I did however manage to purchase a Biotek Marine BTM3000 par sensor - which is AWESOME. My first measurement at the substrate was like 150 PAR during peak light (which was probably only like 40% power).


Reefbreeders old style w/ custom fw spectrum.


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/941866-60-gallon-starfire-dutch-4.html

200gal. DIY Led:









NOTE: Not mine.. mine just go to a weedy mess..


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

That's because Luxeon UV efficiency is higher than everyone else and the primary optic doesn't degrade over time. SemiLED is getting there but you still can't push them as hard as Luxeon. SemiLED binning has actually gotten quite good and rapidled actually carries some of the top of line bins but you have to ask for them.


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

If you're looking to achieve light which is as close a replication of the spectrum and CRI of sunlight then let me try and easily solve that for you. 

Build My LED used to do a horticultural fixture designed to accurately replicate sunlight in laboratory conditions. They discontinued production, but you could look up their Solar-Max lights on their site through a web archive such as 'wayback machine'. 

They described their Solar-Mad fixtures as follows: "If your research project or growing environment requires that you match natural sunlight in a controlled environment, this spectrum is your best choice. We developed this “white light” 5700K spectrum to replicate sunlight as closely as possible and to meet the needs of our research clients. As opposed to most LED fixtures on the market, this spectrum includes far red light to ensure phytochrome responses are similar to those which occur in the field. While other white light sources, including Fluorescent and Metal Halide, appear white to the human eye, the spectrum profiles are completely different than sunlight. This can cause numerous problems with your research and plant morphology, especially if you are trying to replicate field conditions. As the world's closest approximation to natural sunlight, this visually pleasing spectrum is fast becoming a favorite among university and corporate research labs."

It sounds as if that is what you are discussing/trying to achieve, and so you could do that by just replicating the same LED selection which I copies from their website: (20%) 3000K Warm White, (13%) 3500K Warm White, (13%) 4500K Neutral White, (13%) 5000K Cool White, (7%) 420nm Violet, (7%) 470nm Blue, (7%) 505nm Cyan, (7%) 525nm Green, (7%) 660nm Deep Red and (7%) 730nm Far Red

Here is the spectral graph of the output of that fixture:










Hope that helps!


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

You can order the Ray series from BML still in the PhysioSpec Greenhouse spectrum which basically looks almost identical to that one. Unit is dimmable too and price is not bad at all.

https://fluence.science/store/ray-series-led-grow-lights/ray22/

https://fluence.science/technology/physiospec-broad-spectrum-led-lights/


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

gus6464 said:


> You can order the Ray series from BML still in the PhysioSpec Greenhouse spectrum which basically looks almost identical to that one. Unit is dimmable too and price is not bad at all.
> 
> https://fluence.science/store/ray-series-led-grow-lights/ray22/
> 
> https://fluence.science/technology/physiospec-broad-spectrum-led-lights/


Thanks, I'd seen those available now as well, although I'm not sure if they are quite as waterproof as BML's previous fixtures. 
And not quite as good of CRI as their previous Solar-Max series, but certainly a great light which is far better than almost any other in terms of accurate colour representation/CRI. 

In any case the OP was seeking the best mix of LED diodes to mimic sunlight, so he can benefit from the knowledge of the people that have already solved that problem if he is building or involved in designing new bulbs/fixtures himself, as can the rest of us too. 

In my professional life I've had demonstrations by LED manufacturers who showed the actual differences in how different LED fixtures with 60/80/90/95 CRI represent various colours and I'd have to suggest the difference that CRI made was quite dramatic. So in my view if you want to see the true colours of your fish and plants then CRI is quite important. 

As for some of the intermediate wavelengths such as green, even if that contributes very little to photosynthesis I'm still more than happy to have plenty of it in my planted tanks considering that it makes the plants appear a vibrant natural green colour!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Mxx said:


> In my professional life I've had demonstrations by LED manufacturers who showed the actual differences in how different LED fixtures with 60/80/90/95 CRI represent various colours and I'd have to suggest the difference that CRI made was quite dramatic. So in my view if you want to see the true colours of your fish and plants then CRI is quite important.


Agreed.




Mxx said:


> As for some of the intermediate wavelengths such as green, even if that contributes very little to photosynthesis I'm still more than happy to have plenty of it in my planted tanks considering that it makes the plants appear a vibrant natural green colour!


There is plenty of green in white LED's of average color temps..
Cyan is the missing component.
10000k/"actinic" blue in a 2:1 ratio..









Cheap 3000K warm white:










Camera sees thing slightly different than your own visual perception though..Keep that in mind a bit.

Another .. Cyan moonlight.. not my tank..









My soapbox stand is green should always be replaced w/ cyan.. good for CRI..

Only missing components from white LED's are low cyan, low deep red, zero violet and a smidge short in "regular" blue...


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## redchigh (Apr 10, 2010)

Focus on 440nm and 660nm, for plants, Balanced by cool white for our eyes.

Bump: Focus on 440nm and 660nm, for plants, Balanced by cool white for our eyes.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

redchigh said:


> Focus on 440nm and 660nm, for plants, Balanced by cool white for our eyes.
> 
> Bump: Focus on 440nm and 660nm, for plants, Balanced by cool white for our eyes.


High CRI is nigh near impossible w/ this..
SPECTRA

Try it
SPECTRA
20 deep red 10 RB and 60 cool white (8000K) CRI is 58..................


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> LED RoyalBlue (440nm) [120°] x10
> LED DeepRed (660nm) [120°] x20
> ...


doesn't mean it doesn't "work" though...

also check out the sun spectrums.. all peak in the blue/cyan band..


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

The Spectra site was a fascinating tool. 

With 10 Warm Whites and one of each of the following ten colours it suggests you can achieve a CRI of 98 at 6170 Kelvin. (390, 410, 430, 460, 480, 490, 500m 520, 540, 660 nm) Ensuring those all blend without getting disco effects might be another thing... And that takes 20 chips to get that. 

You can also get a CRI of 99 with 1 Cool White, 2 Neutral White, 4 Warm White, and one of each of the following 420, 460, 480, 500, 520, 540 nm. = 13 total chips which is even better and easier to accomplish.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

As much as I throw CRI back and forth you do need to be aware of the different "types".. One for below 4000K(-ish, forgot the exact cutoff) and one above..

One Luxeon A at 3000K will give you a CRI of 96..but 53 under the D65 (6500K daylight) standard...


Setting is in "setup".. Auto works as long as K values exceeds the cutoff value..

And no need to go too crazy.. 


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-A ANSI (5000K) [120°] x10
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-A ANSI (3000K) [120°] x4
> ...


95 at D65 79 at D50...

90 plus at D65 is really good enough for accurate color..


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

Wow this forum is great. So many responses and so much great info. So I guess that my best bet is to try and hit all of the major peak wavelengths for photosynthesis while trying to achieve the highest CRI possible. Using the Osram color calculator software I have come up with a few combinations that seem to do just that with the standard LEDs listed in the software. 
Below is the new LED combination that I have come up with for the 60w par38. With all colors blended the CRI ends up being 96 and the CCT is 7100K. I understand that using separate 3w emitters isn't the best for color blending so in real life the spectrum won't be exactly the same as this. Even without perfect blending this combination should still be able to achieve a very high CRI value with a very balanced full spectrum. I will also try to get some sort of diffusers built in with the par38 bulb to increase blending. 




JeffKrol: I would have to agree on COB LEDs being really promising especially as a result of their blending capabilities. I had actually enquired early on about customizing some COB emitters. I can get pretty well any combination of colors and on different controllable channels so in theory I could make a COB emitter with CRI that rivals YUJI or SORAA by blending different color chips. The problem was finding a manufacturer for a fixture. I think that I will have to do more work on this.
For now what do you guys think? If the 3w diodes are blended well enough shouldn't this be a really good spectrum?


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Too much cyan not enough warm white.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Not sure if I agree w/ th too much cyan, not enough warm white.
I will caution that cyan (by extension green) is a very dominant color for visual perception.
Since human vision is attuned to this band you will "see" more greenish than would be predicted by data..




BUT you are sort of at the point where theory needs to be tested..


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

I was expecting someone to say too much cyan. I was thinking the same thing but the additional cyan increased the CRI value a good amount. I took out one cyan and added one more warm white. I also substituted one of the 490nm cyans for a 505nm. The resulting spectrum gets rid of the massive spike in the cyan area and overall I think it will be nicer. The CRI value drops to 91(which is still pretty good) and the CCT ends up being about 6000K. Here is the resulting spectrum. If anyone has more input on the par38s let me know. I think its time I get some samples made and see how they perform in real life. 



Now onto the topic of COB LEDs because I really see a lot of potential in this technology. I have been in contact with another manufacturer for the past couple days who is able to customize COB chips to my exact specifications as well as have various tunable channels. The manufacturer is also able to build a fixture. I have been playing around with the Osram software some more and have come up with some combinations that yield a CRI value of 99. One of the combinations is as follows...
CCT: 5600K
5% 420nm
8% 470nm
6% 490nm
7% 525nm
1% 620nm
2% 630nm
6% 660nm
20% 2700K white
20% 4000K white
25% 5700K white
And here is the spectral chart.

This is just an example though. What do you guys think? Best LED combo? What style fixture? How should the channels be divided?


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

99 CRI sounds good. 

Does anyone think 6000K is too cool of light colour for the average tank in say a living room? The lights in my house are all 2700K, and I'm not sure what my current tank lights rate but believe they're on the warmer side. 

I have a set of 5600K BML's for my current tank build I'm slowly in the process of doing, but wonder if they'll be a bit unpleasantly cool for my taste.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

hat question is really a matter of personal preference..
No right or wrong answer..

Like the difference between tannin stained "Amazonia" tanks and crisp "white" Alpine lake..


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

jeffkrol said:


> hat question is really a matter of personal preference..
> No right or wrong answer..
> 
> Like the difference between tannin stained "Amazonia" tanks and crisp "white" Alpine lake..


Hopefully this isn't hijacking the thread, but maybe the overall Kelvin rating is important for the OP to consider as well? 

Would contributors like to suggest where their personal preference lies? (assuming the lighting has a decent CRI in the first place, as that can otherwise sway what people think). 

In my house for instance, I threw out any 3000K bulbs and replaced them with 2700K's, but I'm not sure myself what tank lighting colour looks best in comparison but would be looking for something which simply looks normal/natural.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Mxx said:


> Would contributors like to suggest where their personal preference lies? (assuming the lighting has a decent CRI in the first place, as that can otherwise sway what people think).
> 
> In my house for instance, I threw out any 3000K bulbs and replaced them with 2700K's, but I'm not sure myself what tank lighting colour looks best in comparison but would be looking for something which simply looks normal/natural.


I think it will all come down to the PAR values.
I have recently been shocked by some PAR readings on some of my DIY builds.
Some have been great and other combinations not so good.

I took the opposite approach in the house.
If it ain't 5000K right to the trash can.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

Just a quick update on the COB LEDs. I spoke to the manufacturer and the engineers said they can make a custom COB chip with extremely high CRI. The chip can be made 50 or 100w. The wavelength combination is as follows 5% 420nm,8% 470nm,6% 490nm,7% 525nm,1% 620nm,2% 630nm,6% 660nm,20% 2700K white,20% 4000K white,25% 5700K white. The CCT should be around 5600K. According to the calculations from the engineers the CRI with this combo is predicted between 95 and 100. They won't know exactly until I have the chip built and they can test it. I can also have a custom fixture built to house these COB chips. I just need to think of a design and they will be able to make a mould for the fixture. This could be an opportunity for me to design something really cool. So what ideas do you guys have for fixture design? I was thinking either something modular or a pendant type light sort of like a Kessil. Any ideas would be appreciated.


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## kilauea91 (Sep 19, 2013)

jturner said:


> Just a quick update on the COB LEDs. I spoke to the manufacturer and the engineers said they can make a custom COB chip with extremely high CRI. The chip can be made 50 or 100w. The wavelength combination is as follows 5% 420nm,8% 470nm,6% 490nm,7% 525nm,1% 620nm,2% 630nm,6% 660nm,20% 2700K white,20% 4000K white,25% 5700K white. The CCT should be around 5600K. According to the calculations from the engineers the CRI with this combo is predicted between 95 and 100. They won't know exactly until I have the chip built and they can test it. I can also have a custom fixture built to house these COB chips. I just need to think of a design and they will be able to make a mould for the fixture. This could be an opportunity for me to design something really cool. So what ideas do you guys have for fixture design? I was thinking either something modular or a pendant type light sort of like a Kessil. Any ideas would be appreciated.


It'll be nice to have a COB to cover the full spectrum with better distribution for plants. Form factor is more of aesthetics, things like heat dissipation with minimal noise(fan or just heat sink), uniform light spread and dimming are more desirable features. COB LED is a point source spotlight. it's necessary to diffuse the light to cover a larger area evenly and reduce "disco effect", which is a common problem seen in fixtures with multi-color LED emitters. You may get better idea from fixtures of similar type such as Kessil,Aquatic life Halo, Ecotech Radion. Each of them use different ways, either lens or diffuser, to achieve better spread over a larger area(say 24"X24"). Non Dimmable 100W COB is seriously strong point source that spells trouble in a planted tank.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

Another update on how these are coming along. I listed the wrong ratio last time, the correct ratio is as follows.
channels 1/2: 
3x420nm
4x470nm
3x490nm
4x425nm
1x620nm
2x630nm
3x660nm
channel 3:
9x2700K
channel 4:
9x4000K
channel 5:
9x5700K

I am planning on making the color temperature controllable on these lights by controlling the 2700K channel. By dimming the 2700K channel I can achieve a range from 5500K to 7000K CCT without compromising the CRI. I will also have a second control that will dim all of the channels while keeping the ratios the same. For fixture style I am leaning towards a pendant type fixture similar to a kessil or aquatic life halo. I have a pair of kessils over my reef and just really love the sleek design and small form factor. I am thinking of having two options for the beam angle, one wide and one narrow. The wide option will use either a 140° or 150° lens and the narrow option will use a 70° lens. I will most likely go with a 100w chip for these fixtures. Here is the theoretical spectral chart. 

This light will probably offer one of the fullest and most balanced spectrums of all the LED fixtures available to the hobby at this point. The peaks in the red blue and violet areas of the spectrum match most of the important wavelengths for photosynthesis while achieving an extremely high CRI value that will make plant colors appear very natural and vibrant to the eye. The use of a COB emitter also blends all of these colors together nicely because of how closely packed the LEDs are. I am personally pretty excited to start putting this light into production. So what does everyone here think? Who would want a light like this on their tank? Any more input is always appreciated.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Nice job.. Next time just use a high density of Yuji .5w emitters..



LED Emitter Products | VTC-5730 | Yuji International

TM-30-15 High Fidelity and Full Color Gamut LEDs | Yuji LED


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## ChrisAZ (Sep 13, 2013)

jturner said:


> I am personally pretty excited to start putting this light into production. So what does everyone here think? Who would want a light like this on their tank? Any more input is always appreciated.



I'm excited to see people finally putting some research into better full spectrum LED's and actually putting them into production for terrariums and aquariums. The only additional input I would add is that I'd be more likely to use a horizontal type light than a pendent style.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> Nice job.. Next time just use a high density of Yuji .5w emitters..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Using this method of mixing various wavelength and color temperature LEDs on the same emitter should result in a similar high quality light source to the yuji LEDs while also giving some options for controllability.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

ChrisAZ said:


> I'm excited to see people finally putting some research into better full spectrum LED's and actually putting them into production for terrariums and aquariums. The only additional input I would add is that I'd be more likely to use a horizontal type light than a pendent style.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am not yet totally set on a fixture design so its alway helpful to get input on this. The thing with COB emitters is that they make more sense being used in pendant or modular type fixtures in terms of keeping form factor small and dissipating the heat from such a dense LED cluster.


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## Pattern8 (Dec 9, 2015)

jturner said:


> I am not yet totally set on a fixture design so its alway helpful to get input on this. The thing with COB emitters is that they make more sense being used in pendant or modular type fixtures in terms of keeping form factor small and dissipating the heat from such a dense LED cluster.


I think we need more pendant style lights. The last thing we need in this hobby is more bulky looking equipment. Would be amazing if as much thought went into the design as it did the light output


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

Congratulations on furthering this and getting a really high CRI. If you could achieve that in a screw-in type COB bulb then you might have greater commercial success outside the hobby than within it. If you can provide some sort of standard replaceable bulb base then it means you could subsequently sell bulb upgrades or replacements without people having to change the fixtures. 

Some of the extremely minimal hanging pendant-type fixtures can look great themselves, but I prefer a bar-type fixture such as the BML's. I prefer for my light to be placed near the front and angled towards the back of the tank so that you get to best see the colour and iridescent reflection of the fish while looking at them from the front of the tank rather than the top... And that's a little more tricky to do perhaps with most suspended fixtures, but many people still seem to buy those. 

Perhaps an interesting minimal design which could be height adjustable from the rear and which wouldn't require unsightly wires or drilling into your ceiling could be one whic has ninety-degree arms coming off the back of the tank and extending over it - kind of like this http://www.petsathome.com/webapp/wc...us-25-led-aquarium-light-22-litres-tank-white

Heat dissipation is key however, and it might be trickier to achieve that with a cob bulb than with others, especially if you're planning on providing high-intensity fixtures. Take a look at the heat-pipe (fan-less/pump-less) cooling strategy which Dyson are using on their lights for comparison - Why Dyson's new lights are worth £399+ | T3


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

I have to modify the spectrum slightly because I decided to use a 100w chip and the previous spectrum was designed for a 50w chip. Anyway, I have a question. How important is color controllability for you guys? By getting rid of the Kelvin Temperature control I will be able to keep the price lower. Me personally, I could care less about controlling color temperature and really just see it as a perk but I want to see what others think. If I am offering an LED fixture that offers a perfect balanced full spectrum but at a set K temp around 5500K-6000K would that really have a negative influence on your decision to purchase the fixture? 

Second piece of new information. I contacted Yuji LED to see if they would be willing to collaborate to produce aquarium LED fixtures and they said that they would. To summarize, their VTC series uses the violet emitter with rgb phosphor resulting in the most perfect spectrum. The downside is that the VTC series is way less efficient at only around 65-85lm/w. The BC series uses a blue emitter with just rg phosphor, is much more efficient at 80-140lm/w, but is missing wavelengths in the violet part of the spectrum. I am thinking of producing some linear fixtures using their smd LEDs. (Yuji did try to make COB chips with their VTC series but there were too many issues with heat management. They do make COB chips with the BC series though but again the bc series is lacking in the violet part of the spectrum which is important.) I was thinking of combining both the vtc and bc series to get the best of efficiency and perfect spectrum. Thoughts on this idea? These would most likely be in addition to the COB fixture.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> I am thinking of producing some linear fixtures using their smd LEDs.


yuji has/had strip modules in the VTC series.. also ribbons.. some w/ dual spectrum (high k low K ) on separate channels..

Problem was all constant voltage and their inventory and products change w/ the wind....
You can get them in constant current arrangements but pricy.. real pricy..

They do make the CV ones w/ little waste w/ the resistors so not much of an issue.
as to L/w Sorra has the same issue..
Keep in mind some of this is "measurement error". Lumens underweight a good part of the "full spectrum" LED's..
PAR or some other measurement is more fitting.
Point is a high powered "horticultural" LED w/ little to no "green-ish" would have a poor L/W ratio...due to measurement "error" yet be quite strong.








some COBs are now exceeding 150L/w

as to "color changing" well to me that is THE point of LED's...Fading (and ease of) next. 
but I wouldn't consider myself a target market either.


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

How much lower would the price be without the temperature controllability? I presume you're looking to do at least a slightly more high-end fixture if you're aiming for high CRI, so if you can include temperature control within that market segment I'd think that would be worthwhile so long as it doesn't add more than 10-20% to the price as that would then be one of the unique selling points of the fixture. But you might want to make sure it can get fairly warm, possibly up to about 4000K or lower even if you set the warm-whites to their maximum.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

decided to start new thread instead


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