# 60" 120 high tech community planted tank journal



## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

For years I've kept fish. Had a standard 20g as a youngster. College, marriage... went to Hawaii and fell in love with saltwater. Had an incredible 180 for a year, and then 2008 happened and we lost our home--and my tank. Ended up moving to a mountain farm where power outages and distance from any fish clubs make saltwater out of range. But, I can't give up my fish! Mounted a 36g bowfront low-tech Walsted tank three years ago. Gotta say I was disappointed. So, recently, my BEST friend and husband said "yes" to a 120 in our bedroom. (We call it the Wetter Chanel). 

I got a huge deal on Craig's List... but sometimes you get what you pay for... so, I got a stand and canopy that the seller built and wired for himself. It looked pretty nice: stand, tank, lights--all for $100! We drove 3 hours each way to get it, and were so excited!









When we got it home, there were some not-so-nice surprises. First, I had not checked for scratches. I had checked for leaks, but the light was dim and the guy had done us a favor to meet us near the end of the only day that Hubs could come. So, the tank was scratched. I tried to live with it, but couldn't. The next week, I went and bought a new one at a LFS for $400. It's a Marineland, and I love it. SO CLEAR!

Then, the lights. They are VHOs... which, in case you don't know is old technology. They are BRIGHT! There are 4 4' bulbs that the seller wired himself on a nice ballast, so they don't use much energy. BUT: finding bulbs for them has been impossible except for 3 types, all in the 10K - 12K range. I am thinking that someday I'll replace them with a hydroponics T-5 (or maybe T-8) fixture. I'm not a fan of LEDs; had them on the 36 bowfront and they had no spread: they were like a lot of laser lights boring down circles on my plants... especially my mini water lily. (But I digress.)

(The forum is making me split up this initial post about the tank into smaller chunks... read on!)

Here's the light array:









The challenge in having these lights to start with has been battling algae. The lights are super bright and only one spectrum, so I have sudden on/offs. For now, I'm using them and have four replacement bulbs to carry me into the new year while I decide if I want to augment with one red T-5 bulb, or replace the whole array. Meanwhile...

I brought the new tank home on 10/27/16, painted its backside the next day, and set it up. I filled it with water and decided to use Black Diamond substrate, lightly salted with Osmocote+ granules. I bought two Eheim 2217s. One is attached to the two spray bars that came with the two filters (linked with a bit of hose) and the other is plumbed into a manifold under the substrate (6 under gravel jets) for movement. As I understand it, for planted tanks we want gentle flow (unlike with saltwater, where we blast the heck out of every corner). This is an area where I still have questions.

Here's a picture of the manifold as we were painting it: it's 1/2" CPVC.









Into this manifold I plumbed one of our Eheim 2217's returns. Water goes into the siphon on the right of the tank, into the canister, out of the canister, through an inline CO2 atomic diffuser (from GLA) and then into the manifold, and out into the tank, laden with CO2.

Seemed like a good idea at the time, but we've had problems getting our drop checker to register enough CO2 in the tank. I think initially, the problem was with the CO2 setup. But now we've definitely got CO2 going into the manifold. We just need to run it for enough hours that we register 30 ppm yet, via drop checker or pH readings. One question I had raised in this process of bringing CO2 online what how much ripple one ideally has at the top of the tank...

Got some great plants from Burr740 to start off right. After adding water and planting them, this is my first FTS.
So, here was the first night, when we had the spray bar for just one Eheim at one end of the 60" run (left to right).









The flow blew over the Mayaca fluviatilis (at the bottom right corner) on the opposite side! It was then that we conceived of a double spray bar gently rippling the surface from back to front of the tank. (Later still, we added Eheim 350 skimmers to both sides to aid with taking film off the top and adding water movement to the two sides.)









And here was last week's shot.









My camera work isn't very good, but here's something to note in the shots that follow:

First, I added yet more plants from two other great hobbiests here on this site, Bartohog and Junglefowl. All plants were excellent!









Second: please note that I've done no landscaping yet. I'm just seeing what plants grow, waiting for algae problems to be resolved, and learning how to work with these plants. For instance, I've got anubias nana petite growing on the driftwood, but I'm expecting more driftwood soon, and plan to put some pieces of the nana and also the buce that's lying on the sand to the right of the driftwood.

Third: look at the evidence of using EI dosing:









That is not a shadow. The bottom, brighter parts of the plant show how they came from Joe. Then, how they grew without CO2 or dosing for about 10-12 days. Then, how they've been growing with EI dosing and increasing levels of CO2 as our equipment comes online.

The next big steps for this tank:

1. Grow out existing plants, making new cuttings.
2. Defeat algae (I've got brown and green so far) by stocking Otos and managing CO2/lights better.
3. Explore whether I need more filtration/flow (opinions courted)
4. Insert more driftwood (on order) and then landscape
5. Stock with more fish. Currently, I have 5 Sterbi Cories and 3 Denison Barbs

Thanks for looking!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

On Sunday last, the grandkids were over. They loved the Wetter Chanel!


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## Sean W. (Oct 12, 2013)

Pics in OP are broken


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Yeah, I can't figure out how to embed them... is there a sticky on that?


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Lol, the kids are staring at it like
"I cant stop looking"
"Yea me neither"
"hey grandma can u make dinner, we are to busy watching the fish tank"

whole scenario went down in my head lmao beautiful tank


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## tatersalad (Dec 7, 2011)

I like it, the cool thing about it is that a planted tank changes and evolves constantly so every time they come visit it will look a little bit different than the time before.


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## Brian Rodgers (Oct 15, 2016)

Beautiful tank setup. I've been trying to figure out the embedding of photos too. Here is a page on how to upload photos Planted Tank Hosting - No Permissions


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

You've got the makings of a really beautiful tank there. I have the same 5' 120G tank as you.

I also run two filters with spray bars aimed at the surface. It creates a nice constant ripple. Good for the tank, and the fish will really appreciate the extra oxygen. At some point you may want to add some circulation pumps as well. 

With a tank that size, you will need a good flow of co2. I started out with a inline diffuser, but recently built a Cerges reactor. It wasn't really that hard and I wish I would have done it long ago. 

I see you have a large canopy there. Just curious, does it open for daily access? I built mine and it is a beast to get on and off the tank (which I very rarely have to do).

Once again, really nice start on the tank, and I look forward to following the progress.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> You've got the makings of a really beautiful tank there. I have the same 5' 120G tank as you.


Yeah, I really searched for this exact footprint. 4' is too short, and 1' isn't deep enough, but we only had so much room a the foot of our bed, so 18" it was. Loving the size and depth, for sure!



Greggz said:


> I also run two filters with spray bars aimed at the surface. It creates a nice constant ripple. Good for the tank, and the fish will really appreciate the extra oxygen. At some point you may want to add some circulation pumps as well.


I have read so much back and forth about the filtration power of two Eheim 2217s on one tank. My feeling in the end is that it's enough filtration, but I might need more motion down the road, as you suggest. That's fine with me; coming from the world of saltwater I've a good store of circulation pumps in house already.

About surface ripples: in troubleshooting my CO2 system, one thing that the GLA responder said was that rippling was the reason I couldn't get CO2 up to where I want it. He said that spray bars were _passe_, and that most planted tank enthusiasts don't use them. But I've read so much about the need to oxygenate as well as gas the plants. Thoughts?



Greggz said:


> With a tank that size, you will need a good flow of co2. I started out with a inline diffuser, but recently built a Cerges reactor. It wasn't really that hard and I wish I would have done it long ago.


So, yeah. I'm a bit confused on reactors. I had hoped that my manifold would work as a reactor, since most reactors (at least the DIY ones) seem to simply be a large channel of water that gives CO2 time to more fully dissolve. Is that not the case? Do reactors do more than that? 

At first, we were getting NOTHING through our diffuser. After running it at 50 psi, we "cracked" it (according to GLA advisors) and now there are good bubbles going through. I know that the bubbles need to be diffused in order to spread through the tank well... right? CO2 is totally new to me! Today will be the first time that we can confidently run the CO2 for the full 8-hour photo period to see if we can gain a green drop checker. How fast is your CO2 stream?

We ARE having trouble getting enough CO2 to register on the drop checker the tank. Did you remove your inline diffuser altogether and just run the CO2 straight through the reactor? IF so, do you think it would be worth a try to run it straight through my manifold?



Greggz said:


> I see you have a large canopy there. Just curious, does it open for daily access? I built mine and it is a beast to get on and off the tank (which I very rarely have to do).


It does open, and also it has slits in the top (near the front) so one can drop in food/ferts. Handy. But I end up opening it a lot. It rests well against the back wall, and/or it has two supports (like on a car hood)--one on each end--that prop it mostly open. It is a BEAST to lift: I can't do it even with Hubs. We had to have a 3rd person when assembling the tank.

The stand is really cool: I have a sweet 18" rimless cube in that lower, open space, with a nice LED on it. We have options: it can be quarantine, it can be species, and it can be grow out for plants. Not sure what we'll end with: probably a mix of all three. Right now, it's cycling.



Greggz said:


> Once again, really nice start on the tank, and I look forward to following the progress.


Thanks! And thanks for your comments! I love talking with people who have similar setups and can compare notes! :laugh2:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> I have read so much back and forth about the filtration power of two Eheim 2217s on one tank. My feeling in the end is that it's enough filtration, but I might need more motion down the road, as you suggest. That's fine with me; coming from the world of saltwater I've a good store of circulation pumps in house already.


I can’t comment on the Eheim 2217, as I’ve never had one. I see it’s rated at 264gph, and I would think two of them would be good. For comparison, I run two Rena Filstar XP3’s (350gph and one XP4 (450gph). The XP4 output goes to the Cerges. I also keep a well stocked tank of Rainbows, so I go a little overboard on filtration. I also run two Koralia 600 pumps, and two Jebao RW-4's, again a little overboard on flow. The trick is getting it to where the plants are gently swaying rather than being uprooted.



Tanks! said:


> About surface ripples: in troubleshooting my CO2 system, one thing that the GLA responder said was that rippling was the reason I couldn't get CO2 up to where I want it. He said that spray bars were _passe_, and that most planted tank enthusiasts don't use them. But I've read so much about the need to oxygenate as well as gas the plants. Thoughts?


My surface has a constant ripple, and I have no trouble with co2 concentration. And like I said, the fish will certainly appreciate the oxygen. Notwithstanding what GLA told you, I think you will find many here who believe in good surface agitation. I believe it's one of the main components of a healthy tank. But it's a topic that I am sure is open to debate.



Tanks! said:


> So, yeah. I'm a bit confused on reactors. I had hoped that my manifold would work as a reactor, since most reactors (at least the DIY ones) seem to simply be a large channel of water that gives CO2 time to more fully dissolve. Is that not the case? Do reactors do more than that?


Yes, that’s exactly what they do. I have no visible bubbles coming from the reactor. 



Tanks! said:


> At first, we were getting NOTHING through our diffuser. After running it at 50 psi, we "cracked" it (according to GLA advisors) and now there are good bubbles going through. I know that the bubbles need to be diffused in order to spread through the tank well... right? CO2 is totally new to me! Today will be the first time that we can confidently run the CO2 for the full 8-hour photo period to see if we can gain a green drop checker. How fast is your CO2 stream?


That’s a great question. As you are going to find out, counting bubbles is virtually impossible with a larger tank. You are going to basically have a steady stream of co2. I use a flow meter rather than a bubble counter (see my journal for more information). I also use a ph controller and drop checker, but that is personal preference, and once again those subjects are always open to debate.



Tanks! said:


> We ARE having trouble getting enough CO2 to register on the drop checker the tank. Did you remove your inline diffuser altogether and just run the CO2 straight through the reactor? IF so, do you think it would be worth a try to run it straight through my manifold?


Yes, no diffuser, just running co2 directly into Cerges. I switched when I had an inline diffuser fail (crack open). The panic and water everywhere was enough for me to switch to a reactor. I’m not sure what you mean by running it right into the manifold?

I hope some of that helps. I just went higher tech about a year ago, and have been right where you are now. I'm still no expert by any means, and can only speak from personal experience, and the observations of how things have developed in my tank.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

> Yes, that’s exactly what they do. I have no visible bubbles coming from the reactor.


Right; so... does your reactor _atomize_ the bubbles? I mean... the bubbles come into the reactor pretty good sized, right? Do they then dissolve enough to be invisible to our eyes merely by spending time in the water column of the reactor?

IF SO...



> Yes, no diffuser, just running co2 directly into Cerges. I switched when I had an inline diffuser fail (crack open). The panic and water everywhere was enough for me to switch to a reactor. I’m not sure what you mean by running it right into the manifold?


Okay... so, on my tank, the diffuser allows me to put CO2 bubbles into the return of my canister filter "safely" (I devoutly hope and pray!). Then, it travels in the output water of the canister filter, up over the edge of my tank, and into a CPVC manifold: so, a straight shot down 26" to the bottom of the tank where it T's to six jets. The idea is to distribute water/CO2 to the tank, starting at substrate level.

There's a picture of the jets attached, as I was painting them. (Still haven't figured out how to embed pics. Sigh.) And then a picture of the tank. The manifold pipe is that center one you see against the background.



> I hope some of that helps. I just went higher tech about a year ago, and have been right where you are now. I'm still no expert by any means, and can only speak from personal experience, and the observations of how things have developed in my tank.


Well, first, THANKS FOR SHARING!!! :bounce: And, secondly, your tanks looks GREAT! I hope I can approximate yours someday... (and figure out how to embed pics!)


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## Sean W. (Oct 12, 2013)

You have to wrap the URL in









Example


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Sean W. said:


> You have to wrap the URL in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


GREAT start! Where do I get the URL if the picture starts on my hard drive? I've learned to drag and drop pics to that section of the "advanced" post field, but then I can't move them at all. If I choose the URL from those (under Manage Attachments) and put it with


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## Sean W. (Oct 12, 2013)

Tanks! said:


> GREAT start! Where do I get the URL if the picture starts on my hard drive?


you have to upload them to a image hosting site, I like imgur.com

when you upload them, be sure to select a resize option before you do, I prefer the "19 inch" resize option


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

I got it! Pics are in to my OP. Thanks, Greggz (on different thread).


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## Sean W. (Oct 12, 2013)

Tanks! said:


> I got it! Pics are in to my OP. Thanks, Greggz (on different thread).


psh! I was like, Thanks Greggz!? haha

glad you got it figured out.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> Right; so... does your reactor _atomize_ the bubbles? I mean... the bubbles come into the reactor pretty good sized, right? Do they then dissolve enough to be invisible to our eyes merely by spending time in the water column of the reactor?


Yes, the bubbles (more like a stream) dissolve in the water column, and there are no visible bubbles in the tank.

I find your set up interesting. If I'm correct, you have the inline diffuser on the intake side of the filter, and the smaller bubbles flow into the filter, then back out up over the side of the tank, then down the tube into the 6 outlet manifold? 

I'll be honest I have no idea how it will work, but am look forward to finding out. If you are getting a good ph drop with no bubbles, you may have created a really good system. Rather than a manifold, I split the output from my Cerges output to both ends of the tank. Yours is a similar idea.

I injected the co2 into the inlet of one of my XP3's filters for quite awhile. It worked well enough, but eventually was too much trouble to keep the flow just right. When it slowed down at all, I would get large bubbles that would belch out all at once. Only time will tell if there is the same effect with the Eheim.

I guess the only way to find out is to try it. Good luck, it might work just perfectly.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Yes, the bubbles (more like a stream) dissolve in the water column, and there are no visible bubbles in the tank.
> 
> I find your set up interesting. If I'm correct, you have the inline diffuser on the intake side of the filter, and the smaller bubbles flow into the filter, then back out up over the side of the tank, then down the tube into the 6 outlet manifold?


No... the intake water goes into the siphon, and through the filter, then on the OUTflow of the canister, the inline diffuser adds CO2 to the outflow, and then the flow takes it to the manifold. Here's the problem: overall, we're not getting enough CO2 to the tank. My drop checker turns green on the top 1/4 of the reagent, but that's all in an 8 hour photoperiod. Meanwhile, algae is gaining. 

So, so far, it's not working as a CO2 delivery system. Question: if a reactor is just a water column, might it "work" to put CO2 directly into the canister outflow (maybe using a T connector stepped down with brass fittings) and thence to the manifold, bypassing the atomizer? I've been thinking that larger bubbles wouldn't diffuse properly... is this a concern?

Or, I've been thinking maybe of putting one of our more powerful pumps from old saltwater days onto the manifold, and just allowing the canister filter to return via spraybar, if the problem is not enough umph in the canister return flow?



Greggz said:


> I'll be honest I have no idea how it will work, but am look forward to finding out. If you are getting a good ph drop with no bubbles, you may have created a really good system. Rather than a manifold, I split the output from my Cerges output to both ends of the tank. Yours is a similar idea.


Yeah... I don't know if it will work either. So far, not really, I guess. But I'm willing to tinker with it a bit more. The gentle flow from the jets works well to keep detritus and food off the substrate for a good while so that the siphons can grab it. That in itself is worthwhile. Possibly I'll just replumb the CO2 in a more conventional way... we'll see.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

OK, got it now. My gut guess is that you just need to crank up the co2. With the set up you have, I don't see any reason you shouldn't be getting a good concentration of co2 into the tank. 

Do you have a ph meter? If so, I would leave a glass of water out to de-gas for a couple of days and then take a ph reading. In the tank you should see a ph drop of about 1 point when you reach a co2 concentration of 30ppm. So if de-gassed water is 7.2, adjust the co2 to try and get it to drop to 6.2.

When I started, I bought a cheap ph meter and mounted the sensor in the tank. The reading gave me a better understanding of the relationship between the co2 flow rate and the ph drop. In reality, it's not perfect science by any means, but it gives you some numbers to start working with. 

In the end, I went with a ph controller, which allows you to crank up the co2 even higher, and not have to worry so much about the exact flow (bubble) rate. Once again, there are always debates about this sort of thing, but this is just works well for me.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> OK, got it now. My gut guess is that you just need to crank up the co2. With the set up you have, I don't see any reason you shouldn't be getting a good concentration of co2 into the tank.
> 
> Do you have a ph meter? If so, I would leave a glass of water out to de-gas for a couple of days and then take a ph reading. In the tank you should see a ph drop of about 1 point when you reach a co2 concentration of 30ppm. So if de-gassed water is 7.2, adjust the co2 to try and get it to drop to 6.2.
> 
> ...


That's encouraging! I have two old ones... would need to reup their probes and calibrate... might be more worth it to get a new controller. I've read about issues with them... like all automation, they can make us lazy and have issues. Open to debate, as you said. I tested the pH difference a day or two ago... no discernible drop. But that was with chemical reagents, not a meter. Hmmm. Points to ponder, for sure!

Does anyone have any thoughts on bn pleco vs. otto cats?


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## LuckyBetta (Nov 13, 2016)

Hello Tanks! I love the size of your tank, really looking forward to watching it mature! 
I would say ottos, but I guess it comes down to personal preference, and perhaps other species that will be in the tank.
Good luck!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

LuckyBetta said:


> Hello Tanks! I love the size of your tank, really looking forward to watching it mature!
> I would say ottos, but I guess it comes down to personal preference, and perhaps other species that will be in the tank.
> Good luck!


Right. My plan is for a non-aggressive, community tank. I have already got 5 Sterbai Corydoras cats, and 3 Denison Barbs, as well as 3 Nerite snails. I'm planning on adding rainbows and angelfish, as well a few more Denison Barbs.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Sean W. said:


> psh! I was like, Thanks Greggz!? haha
> 
> glad you got it figured out.


Yeah, while I REALLY appreciated the time and effort that you took to help, it was Greggz method that worked for me.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

WELL!!!!! I say "HOORAY and HALLELUJAH"! My manifold is operating as I planned and dreamed--at LAST! Tonight, we had millions of micro bubbles... too many to look good, but that's okay... that's okay! We can turn them DOWN; it was getting them UP that was such a pain! FWIW (in case anyone encounters similar road blocks) our troubles stemmed from:
1. GLA CO2 check valve that needed "cracked" by running the psi of the CO2 at 45.
2. Ditto the atomic diffuser from GLA.
3. Our own stupidity in not opening the flow valves when turning the manifold canister back on _after _confirming that the drop checker, check valve and diffuser were operating properly (we took it all apart, piece by piece, and ran each part separately in a glass of water so if the check valve or diffuser blew out we wouldn't have a mess, and plus we could see bubbles).

It's been _very_ frustrating, but now we have it. Lots of CO2 flowing in the canister outflow, and down into the manifold, and out into the tank. I had it up pretty high for about 2 hours... maybe 5-6 bps... and the drop checker finally turned green about a half hour before lights out. We turned it way down to about 3 bps, and the tank cleared up beautifully (no more 7 Up look). So, I think we're good to go with our innovative system. Whew!

So, now I get to play with balancing the tank and fighting the algae that's been building up without the CO2 working right.

I also decided on Oto's: got 4 from PetSmart last night (my only "local" choice--still an hour away) and they are all going at the algae today! (I've heard so much about how fragile they are that I decided to overstock them... Has anyone had success with supplementing their diet if they eat all the algae to a standstill?)

One thing that I didn't see tonight was plants pearling... when/how does that happen, now that I have some CO2 to work with?

(SO EXCITED! :bounce 

Note to self: tomorrow I need to do a water change and start seriously tweaking EI/root tabs.


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## ArchimedesTheDog (Apr 9, 2012)

Tanks! said:


> WELL!!!!! I say "HOORAY and HALLELUJAH"! My manifold is operating as I planned and dreamed--at LAST! Tonight, we had millions of micro bubbles... too many to look good, but that's okay... that's okay! We can turn them DOWN; it was getting them UP that was such a pain! FWIW (in case anyone encounters similar road blocks) our troubles stemmed from:
> 1. GLA CO2 check valve that needed "cracked" by running the psi of the CO2 at 45.
> 2. Ditto the atomic diffuser from GLA.
> 3. Our own stupidity in not turning the manifold canister back on _after _confirming that the drop checker, check valve and diffuser were operating properly (we took it all apart, piece by piece, and ran each part separately in a glass of water so if the check valve or diffuser blew out we wouldn't have a mess, and plus we could see bubbles).
> ...


Congrats!

Sinking algae wafers can be eaten by Otos, it's the only food I have ever been able to use to supplement their diet and it has taken them a while to realize they were food. Other people have had good luck with blanched zucchini for them but they have always ignored it for me.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

ArchimedesTheDog said:


> Congrats!
> 
> Sinking algae wafers can be eaten by Otos, it's the only food I have ever been able to use to supplement their diet and it has taken them a while to realize they were food. Other people have had good luck with blanched zucchini for them but they have always ignored it for me.


Yes, I hope they will eat them! All four of them are constantly chowing down, cleaning glass, plants, and driftwood. I'm totally sold on them. I just hope they don't run out of algae, and/or can learn to eat sinking pellets. I already feed these to my Cory cats.

Speaking of these, I have troulbe counting them, but it seems that one may have gone missing. :frown2: I bought 5, but can't seem to see all of them at one time. They are excellent at hiding, so I may be just not seeing it. I did a massive tank cleaning/re-scaping/55% water change today, and didn't see a corpse, so hopefully it's my bad.

The work today resulted in a big change of the driftwood position. I found that I liked rainbow fish tanks (like Greggz) that have horizontally oriented driftwood, rather than vertical. I had originally thought that a vertical orientation would serve to make regions for the fish to claim, but since I'm planning a peaceful community now, I don't think I need that.

I also installed new light bulbs on the tank today: again, I'm stuck with my VHO T12s for now, and there's precious little selection of bulb spectra. I did the best I could by ordering Aquasun 10,000K bulbs, and I must say that they are making my reds far more visible than did the aged Actinic 12000K ones that I've had so far. I'm thinking of adding some warm light via strip LEDs, but that's for a different day.

The water change gave me a surprise: my nitrates, which had been running high, were only 20 ppm when I got done. I did vacuum all the substrate (shallowly) and re-position the driftwood, so hopefully there are no festering pockets of waste. I plan to reduce my dosing of EI ferts by about 3/4 for the next week; Burr told me that I've een overdosing, especially micros.

There are pockets of hair algae here and there, and there's some GSA and brown diatomes, but I expected all that, especially since I had so much trouble getting my CO2 under control. It's such a good feeling to finally have control over all major aspects of the tank. Now, to learn to play them like a well-made violin!

Pic below isn't very good, but it gives you an idea.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

The driftwood on the left side is just waiting for playmates (more driftwood) that's on the way. Been waiting for it for awhile. All the anubias and buce that are parked up on the spraybar are waiting (oh so patiently) too!


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## ArchimedesTheDog (Apr 9, 2012)

I would caution you on the angels, they tend toward aggression in my experience (i kept them for 5-6 years when i was younger). i personally will never keep them again because f that. I only mention it because you are going for low aggression in your tank.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> I plan to reduce my dosing of EI ferts by about 3/4 for the next week; Burr told me that I've een overdosing, especially micros.


The best advice I can give is to listen to Burr740. 'Nuff said.:laugh2:


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Does your drop checker have 4 dKH water (distilled water with just enough baking soda to get to a KH of 4 degrees) in it? And, do you use pH reagent, like API pH test kits come with, in that 4 dKH water? Is it a transparent dark blue color before you put it in the tank?

One thing that might help you get started is to dilute your 4 dKH water 50-50 with distilled water, to make 2 dKH water. If you then use that instead of the 4 dKH, it will be green at about 15 ppm, and yellow-green at about 30 ppm. If it goes to yellow you will probably have too much CO2 for the fish to live with.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Hoppy said:


> Does your drop checker have 4 dKH water (distilled water with just enough baking soda to get to a KH of 4 degrees) in it? And, do you use pH reagent, like API pH test kits come with, in that 4 dKH water? Is it a transparent dark blue color before you put it in the tank?
> 
> One thing that might help you get started is to dilute your 4 dKH water 50-50 with distilled water, to make 2 dKH water. If you then use that instead of the 4 dKH, it will be green at about 15 ppm, and yellow-green at about 30 ppm. If it goes to yellow you will probably have too much CO2 for the fish to live with.


Hey Hoppy!

My drop checker does indeed have 4 dkh water, made with the formula that you posted on a different thread. So for all the questions in your first paragraph my answer are yes, yes and yes.

Currently, we've arrived at the place where after having turned on the CO2 for an hour before the lights with bps at 5-6, our drop checker turns nicely to a deep emerald green. The fish seem okay with that. I'm not quite sure why you're suggesting that I go to a 2 dkh solution, but I'm open to learning! Can you explain the benefit to me?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks! said:


> On Sunday last, the grandkids were over. They loved the Wetter Chanel!


Really like this pic


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Update: On Friday, we _finally_ got the driftwood I've been waiting for. Because we were caught flatfooted with CO2, we had algae problems and some die off on the stalks of plants, and a few pockets of hair algae of some sort. We took out each plant that showed any form of distress, cleaned and pruned, and then replanted. We also vacuumed the substrate lightly and did a 50% water change, and added the driftwood with buce and anubias nana attached via brown all-cotton threads. This is my final hardscape, but not my endpoint with plants, by any means. 

New plants are coming from Bartohog: 2 retrospiralis, 2 Hyptis lorentziana, 5 Bacopa Salzmannii, 3 Bacopa colorata, 1 Cryptocoryne Wendtii Bronze, and 2 bags red root floaters. As you see in the picture, I'm floating some Brazilian pennywort now, and like the look. My light is high, so I want to shade some of the tank while continuing to fight algae. The way my flow works, the two sides of the tank are relatively tranquil while the under-surface spray bar pushes back to front in the center, so I bought the red root floaters and we'll see if they work out well on the left side.

Bump: I have to give shout outs to those who have patiently helped with this tank so much!

1. Immortal1: Hubs is going to HD tomorrow to buy parts for a cerges reactor. :d) I'm excited about that.

2. Also, Hoppy, we adjusted the dKH for the drop checker, so it's at 2 now. More on how that does as the week progresses.

3. Burr: I'm dosing sparingly: about 1/4 of what I had been, and also getting more plants. Photo period is at 5 hrs, and CO2 coming on one hour before lights on and going off one hour before lights off. Too early to tell if this will beat our algae problem, but at least you've given us a direction to head.

In this season of Thanksgiving, I'm more than grateful to all of you, and for this terrific website that does so much to educate newbies like us!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

It looks like you are well on your way now. You are not going to recognize that tank once those plants start taking off. 

And get the scissors ready.....hard to think of now.....but it won't be long and you will be trimming it all back!

Looking forward to seeing the updates as things progress.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> It looks like you are well on your way now. You are not going to recognize that tank once those plants start taking off.
> 
> And get the scissors ready.....hard to think of now.....but it won't be long and you will be trimming it all back!
> 
> Looking forward to seeing the updates as things progress.


You are also on my shout-out list, Gregg. Still pondering fish choices, but for sure rainbows. Thanks for all the encouragement so far!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Tonight my Hubs built a Cerges reactor for me. :bounce: We're still fine tuning it (thanks to Immortal1 again!). When we fired it up, we saw a one-drip leak. Ahhhh! :crying: 

Hubs is going back to HD tomorrow to get parts and replumb that top section. He's so great!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I would suggest a plastic based 5 minute epoxy instead of silicone


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Meanwhile, we're trying to fine tune the cerges as is. We're finding that with the bypass all the way open, and a fairly low rate (3 bps or so) the cerges gurgles every 30 seconds or so, and then "belches" visible bubbles into the tank. I'm wondering if the CO2 is even dissolving at all... seems like the CO2 might be collecting in the cerges for 30 second and then just coming up all at once? If so, this is not working as we'd hoped, for sure!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> I would suggest a plastic based 5 minute epoxy instead of silicone


Hey: I think he's just going to go ahead and rebuild the top tomorrow. That way we won't have to worry about it ever. We may re-engineer it. It seems like we don't need the bypass. It works better without it! When we open the bypass, the CO2 goes with that flow and bypasses the filter. Any reason that we NEED a bypass?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Curious how things are going? Did you get the leak fixed? Is reactor working any better with full filter flow going thru it?


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Curious how things are going? Did you get the leak fixed? Is reactor working any better with full filter flow going thru it?


Thanks for asking! I tried to post an update last night, but this website wouldn't upload pictures. The cerges--well, it's a mixed bag. Scott went to HD and redesigned it (see pictures: from first one to second one). Basically: it works. We don't have fizzy, 7-up water anymore. 

That said, it doesn't work perfectly... we still have SOME tiny bubbles in the tank, especially at the high point of day's injection, and at the rate we pump it in (constant stream in bubble counter) there's a constant clicking sound, like a loud clock. Furthermore, yesterday after running about 5 straight hours, there was a 1" bubble of CO2 at the top of the housing. 

I'm wondering if that bubble will push its way into the tank as microbubbles without my intervention?


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

General update:

Besides the changes to the cerges, we acquired some new plants and did some rescaping. Additions were: 
2 retrospiralis
2 Hyptis lorentziana
5 Bacopa Salzmannii
3 - Bacopa colorata
1 - Cryptocoryne Wendtii Bronze 
2 bags red root floaters

The lorentziana and the crypt suffered from the trip: the plants were late--delayed by the holiday rush.

I also added a fine gold gourami and two denison barbs. They look so gorgeous under the lights! (I wish I was a better photographer, but the pictures below give an idea. The last one is of my daughter's puppy, who lives with us. She is fascinated with the fish! (And I thought only cats were!)


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

The 1" bubble will dissolve into the water eventually once your cO2 turns off. Basically what is happening is the cO2 is being injected faster (say 20bps) than the reactor can process (say 18bps). Try a slightly slower stream of bubbles and see if the the same bubble develops.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Gold gourami is impressive!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> . Basically: it works. We don't have fizzy, 7-up water anymore.
> 
> That said, it doesn't work perfectly... we still have SOME tiny bubbles in the tank, especially at the high point of day's injection, and at the rate we pump it in (constant stream in bubble counter) there's a constant clicking sound, like a loud clock. Furthermore, yesterday after running about 5 straight hours, there was a 1" bubble of CO2 at the top of the housing.
> 
> I'm wondering if that bubble will push its way into the tank as microbubbles without my intervention?


My guess is that you might have been better off going with a 20" filter for your reactor. That's what I use on my 120G, and no visible bubbles at all. With a 120G, we are pumping a pretty good stream of co2. Basically the bubbles have to travel further down into a 20" so more dwell time. 

That being said, if you can vary the flow on the outflow of the filter, I would play with it a bit and see if you can find the sweet spot. A little slower flow might provide more dwell time and less bubbles. Trial and error is the only way to find out.

But it sounds like maybe you are close enough that the few aren't going to bother you? The clock ticking sound is interesting. Not sure what that is?


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Well, it turns out that our needle valve had come loose (from the bottom) after we refilled the bubble counter. It was running pretty high last night, hence the bubble and the clicking. Tonight, it's almost silent and VERY few (if any) bubbles. However, we're probably not getting enough CO2 to the tank, so we'll have to turn it up and see if the clicking and bubble reappear. 

You may be right, Gregg! Time will tell...


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Gold gourami is impressive!


He is just lovely. Swims all over--high, low, through plants. Incredible markings. SO looking forward to getting some quality bowfish, but plan right now is to wait until after the holiday shipping is over. Had several Amazon shipments (and my last purchase of plants!) delayed already, so I'm leery of putting expensive fish on the line. No need to hurry!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

ArchimedesTheDog said:


> Congrats!
> 
> Sinking algae wafers can be eaten by Otos, it's the only food I have ever been able to use to supplement their diet and it has taken them a while to realize they were food. Other people have had good luck with blanched zucchini for them but they have always ignored it for me.


All 4 of my Otos are still alive and active. They do a great job on algae, and I'm really excited that they have taken to the sinking algae wafers! :grin2:


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Time for an update. The tank is doing well overall. Algae is keeping off for the most part (at least on new growth) :smile2:.

We had to redo the cerges 4 times, but it works great now. I've got a new iPad and am learning how to post pictures... apparently without much success... anyone got any tips?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4o7H8pQPJ5mSGJEUEFORWxUanM


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Here is your picture posted for you. And tank is looking good, starting to fill in nicely.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks! said:


> Time for an update. The tank is doing well overall. Algae is keeping off for the most part (at least on new growth) :smile2:.
> 
> We had to redo the verges 4 times, but it works great now. I've got a new iPad and am learning how To post pictures... apparently without much success... anyone got any tips?
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4o7H8pQPJ5mSGJEUEFORWxUanM


Tank is looking great Marcia. Been meaning to check in on this thread to see how things are going.
As for pictures, I can only tell you how I do things here.
Assuming you see basically what I see, on your iPad go to this site. At the top is a pull down tab called RESOURCES. At the bottom is Upload Images. 
At the top of the Upload Images page is a Browse... button. This opens up a menu where you can search for your picture (keep in mind there is a size limit to the pictures so try to keep you pictures around the 2-3MegaPixel range).
Once you find your picture and click on it, click Open. This will bring the picture location into the Upload Images page. Now click on the UPLOAD IMAGE button. Assuming the file size is not too big, this will add your picture to your Upload Image page.

Now the fun part (at least in android). I find having 2 copies of The Planted tank open at once. First page is the topic that you want to add the picture to. The second page is the Upload Images page. 
In the Upload Images page, click on the Image URL of the picture you want and copy the link.
In the Topic you are working on, there is a button that says Insert Image (post it note image). Paste your link from the sentence above into the box and hit enter. This should add that image to your topic.

I found all this worked pretty good when I was using my phone to take pictures and upload them, then going to my Windows laptop to get the uploaded image and add it to a particular topic.

Hope this helps.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Here is your picture posted for you. And tank is looking good, starting to fill in nicely.
> 
> View attachment 701138


Thanks, Gregg!

I am pleased with it. I plan to prune and replant the pennywort all along the back of the tank. It seems to grow about 2"/day. As you said recently in your tank journal, I want to work with the plants that work with me. :smile2:

I had a scare with my gourami. He developed what looked like a fungus infection on his dorsal fin. It got worse for a day or two, and I was busily making a fish trap to catch him, when it was just gone. I was so GLAD! I've found a breeder of Lange F2 gertrudae, Signifiers, and herbs who lives near my dad in New England. I plan to buy a few fish after Christmas and transport them home myself (10 hour drive, but less time in bags than w/carriers). I'm wondering how these smaller rainbow species will fare with larger ones. Any insights/advice?

Linn: thanks so much for the photo tips. I'm trying with a pic of the gourami's now disappeared white "fungus."










YAY!!!! It worked! You guys are the best!

For the record: currently I'm running a 6-hour light cycle, with 1/2 strength EI dosing and CO2 that is at about 15 ppm. Still trying to increase CO2 amounts, but need a flow meter (like Gregg's) and/or a pH controller before it will be fine tuned. Also doing 50% water changes weekly. All in all, fine tuning all systems and beginning to feel comfortable, finally!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> I've found a breeder of Lange F2 gertrudae, Signifiers, and herbs who lives near my dad in New England. I plan to buy a few fish after Christmas and transport them home myself (10 hour drive, but less time in bags than w/carriers). I'm wondering how these smaller rainbow species will fare with larger ones. Any insights/advice?


There are some beautiful blue eyes, but personally I've never kept them. They look pretty delicate, but I don't really know. My only concern would be if they would have any trouble getting enough food. Larger adult Rainbows can be pretty aggressive at feeding time. Maybe someone else has kept them together and can comment. 



Tanks! said:


> For the record: currently I'm running a 6-hour light cycle, with 1/2 strength EI dosing and CO2 that is at about 15 ppm. Still trying to increase CO2 amounts, but need a flow meter (like Gregg's) and/or a pH controller before it will be fine tuned. Also doing 50% water changes weekly. All in all, fine tuning all systems and beginning to feel comfortable, finally!


I like the way you are easing into it, and it looks like it is working for you. As your plant mass increases, you might find you will need more of all three (lights, ferts, and CO2).

As to pH controllers, they are one of those topics where people's opinion differ pretty wildly. For me, it helps to fine tune the CO2 concentration, and gives me piece of mind I won't overdose the tank. With a tank full of mature Rainbows, the cost to me is well worth the piece of mind.

And you mentioned the flow meter. You know, it's one of my favorite pieces of equipment. On a larger tank, I'm surprised you don't see it more often. Adjusting my flow rate with a bubble counter was driving me nuts, but with the flow meter it's easy. Just never having to refill the bubble counter ever again was worth the cost!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Happy to hear the picture thing worked out for you Marcia!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> I like the way you are easing into it, and it looks like it is working for you. As your plant mass increases, you might find you will need more of all three (lights, ferts, and CO2).


I installed 3 strips of LEDs, and now can enjoy my tank late and early, when main lights are off. Those main lights are pretty strong, so I don't know if I'll ever need more! Now, CO2 for sure... How long does it take you to go thru one of your 10# tanks, Gregg? (And for how long per day is it on?)



Greggz said:


> As to pH controllers, they are one of those topics where people's opinion differ pretty wildly. For me, it helps to fine tune the CO2 concentration, and gives me piece of mind I won't overdose the tank. With a tank full of mature Rainbows, the cost to me is well worth the piece of mind.


My plan would be the same as yours: how do you keep it from turning CO2 on at night, when pH drops?



Greggz said:


> And you mentioned the flow meter. You know, it's one of my favorite pieces of equipment. On a larger tank, I'm surprised you don't see it more often. Adjusting my flow rate with a bubble counter was driving me nuts, but with the flow meter it's easy. Just never having to refill the bubble counter ever again was worth the cost!


Again, same here. How do you plumb the flow meter? (I read your thread discussing it but that didn't give specifics... that I saw...?)


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> I installed 3 strips of LEDs, and now can enjoy my tank late and early, when main lights are off.


I do the same thing. At 8:00PM main lights go off and LED's come on. The lights are dimmed, which creates a nice calm peaceful atmosphere.



Tanks! said:


> Now, CO2 for sure... How long does it take you to go thru one of your 10# tanks, Gregg? (And for how long per day is it on?)


My CO2 is on for 9 hours a day. My 10# tank lasts about 4 months. My flow rate is about 25cc/Min.



Tanks! said:


> My plan would be the same as yours: how do you keep it from turning CO2 on at night, when pH drops?


Simple. pH controller is on a timer. Comes on at 10:00AM, goes off at 7:00PM.




Tanks! said:


> How do you plumb the flow meter? (I read your thread discussing it but that didn't give specifics... that I saw...?)


Flow meter is easy to set up. On the back there is an inlet and outlet female pipe thread opening. I bought a couple of adapters from HD, which are male pipe thread to CO2 barb. Remember with pipe threads you need to use Teflon tape. 

The CO2 tubing from the regulator goes into the inlet and back out the outlet to the reactor. I just used Velcro to stick the unit to the side of the tank. Here's a pic of how it looks. At the time I took this, I was still filling the bubble counter, as I was trying to understand the relationship between the bubble counter and the flow meter.








If you want to see how this developed, here is the thread I started that led to going with the flow meter.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/959321-must-something-better-than-bubble-counter.html


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> My CO2 is on for 9 hours a day. My 10# tank lasts about 4 months. My flow rate is about 25cc/Min.
> 
> Simple. pH controller is on a timer. Comes on at 10:00AM, goes off at 7:00PM.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the helpful response. I did read that thread. So glad you've blazed that trail! :grin2: I get my CO2 tanks changed out, rather than refilled, so I'll need a different mounting strategy.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

So, over Christmas, @kevmo911 did an amazing RAOK (I had to look up this term when I first came to this board: random acts of kindness--in case you are a newbie :smile. I happened to see it while surfing my favorite forum board as a break from all the holiday preparations.

@kevmo911 put up this offer: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/156-wtb-raok/1111498-raok-metering-valve.html. As he put it: is a new-in-sealed-box Parker 2F-H3L-V-SS-TC. If you don't already know what it is, you probably don't need it. But, to be clear, it's a really high-precision inline (not angled) metering valve, used with pressurized gas. In our case, that means CO2. Parker HR series, stem type 3, if you'd like to search for a spec sheet. Female 1/8" NPT ports, so no need for adapters.

I had been looking longingly at the $100+ flow meter that @Greggz has employed, so I thought it would be amazing (if unlikely) to win such a valve, but i wrote my entry without any expectations simply as Another great chance to once again express how grateful I am for this community of kind, dedicated hobbyists.

Three days later after the Christmas rush was over, I decided to give a tank update. "Oh, look, new mentions..." And then it hit me. @Immortal1 and others were congratulating me for winning a $385 valve! I am a sincere Christian, and I do love God. I am so blown away that He would have my number come up, and work through the generosity of a stranger to give me such a wonderful Christmas gift! :smile2:

@kevmo911 had an important stipulation for the winner: "You agree to Pay It Forward in some form. Doing your own RAOK(s) or - if you're cash-poor, for example - spending that extra time and effort to walk somebody through something, step by step, no matter how frustrating it may or may not be. @Immortal1, for example, bought reagents and experimented to contribute to a chemistry thread this past year. I mention him because he won the last valve I RAOK'd, and he mentioned me in the Seachem/Matrix thread as a reason for his contribution. Which wasn't really necessary, but it was a nice thought, and I was touched that he remembered (aaw!) As far as a timeframe for completing this Pay It Forward mission, any time over the course of the next year would be wonderful!"

I'm cash poor enough that I won't be making so grand a gesture, but I do have an almost-new diffuser that I'll be offering soon, and as I grow as a tank keeper, you probably will get sick of seeing me walking newbies through step by step. :grin2:


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

Congratulations on winning the valve. That was an awesome gesture by Kevmo911. I'm sure your time and advice will be just as valuable to a lot of members here, myself included.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

sdwindansea said:


> Congratulations on winning the valve. That was an awesome gesture by Kevmo911. I'm sure your time and advice will be just as valuable to a lot of members here, myself included.


Thanks! Too kind.

So, this tank has been running for about 2 months now, and I'm beginning to think about my canister filters. I am thinking that there is more gunk in them now then will be on an ongoing basis. I run two Eheim 2217s. My question for the committee is how often do you change your canister filters? I plan to alternate the changes. This is one reason that I'm running two canisters. (The other is that I live in the middle of nowhere, so if one goes out, the nearest fish store – which is Petsmart – is an hour plus away.) So, I won't be changing them both out of the same time. But I am wondering if it's even time to change one out? I suppose I could just take a look inside them and see how dirty they look, but it is sort of a pain, so if it's way too early to start thinking about this I wanted to hear about it from you experienced fish keepers. 

I have been dosing with EI, and doing my water changes religiously every Saturday. 50% of the water changes over. What do you guys think?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Best advice I can give you is what I use for my single canister filter. Is there more junk floating around in the tank than usual? Better have a look. Does the flow coming out the return line look less than it did right after you cleaned the filter? Better have a look.
I am running an Eheim Pro 4 on my 75 gallon tank. for what ever reason I seem to stir up more than average amounts of dirt in my tank (always messing with one plant or another) so my filter gets dirtier a little faster than expected. For me it is working out to a monthly thing. Now, this is not saying the canister is full of junk. But, the initial course filter at the top is getting pretty plugged up and the final fine filter (again, in my canister) is getting really dirty.

For your twin 2217's I would think you should be able to get atleast 2 months use before wanting to open one up. Alternating services is also a good idea (as you already mentioned).


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## nyskiffie (Mar 23, 2016)

I wouldn't change out your media either way. Maybe if you have some filter floss for water polishing but otherwise just a rinse in tank water and put it back in.


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## tatersalad (Dec 7, 2011)

Tanks! said:


> Thanks! Too kind.
> 
> So, this tank has been running for about 2 months now, and I'm beginning to think about my canister filters. I am thinking that there is more gunk in them now then will be on an ongoing basis. I run two Eheim 2217s. My question for the committee is how often do you change your canister filters? I plan to alternate the changes. This is one reason that I'm running two canisters. (The other is that I live in the middle of nowhere, so if one goes out, the nearest fish store – which is Petsmart – is an hour plus away.) So, I won't be changing them both out of the same time. But I am wondering if it's even time to change one out? I suppose I could just take a look inside them and see how dirty they look, but it is sort of a pain, so if it's way too early to start thinking about this I wanted to hear about it from you experienced fish keepers.
> 
> I have been dosing with EI, and doing my water changes religiously every Saturday. 50% of the water changes over. What do you guys think?


I use Polyfill (teddy bear stuffing) in my canister filters. Have been doing it for years. It catches everything and is readily available at any Walmart for relatively cheap. You can get a bag of it for a few dollars and it will last a really long time. Then you can afford to change out media whenever you want really.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

nyskiffie said:


> I wouldn't change out your media either way. Maybe if you have some filter floss for water polishing but otherwise just a rinse in tank water and put it back in.


Thanks! That was my plan. Nice to have the confirmation. :grin2:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> So, this tank has been running for about 2 months now, and I'm beginning to think about my canister filters. I am thinking that there is more gunk in them now then will be on an ongoing basis. I run two Eheim 2217s. My question for the committee is how often do you change your canister filters?
> 
> I have been dosing with EI, and doing my water changes religiously every Saturday. 50% of the water changes over. What do you guys think?


I have three canisters, and I typically clean one every two or three weeks, so the max is 9 weeks before a cleaning. To keep track of the cleanings, I keep a piece of paper on the inside of the stand door, and mark down the date. If I didn't, I would never remember.

I always clean them while I am doing a water change. I use the tank water I am pumping out to squeeze/rinse out the foam pads. I do replace the filter floss, as it is so cheap. 

I think getting on a regular schedule is important, as a well filtered clean tank is a happy one.

As to the amount of water to change, 50% is usually recommended. Personally I change more like 75%. I've never seen an ill effect from changing too much water, and I know my Rainbows seem to appreciate it.

And hard to believe it's only been two months. Your tank has come a long way in a short while!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

HUGE update today.

We left for a bi-annual trip to New England to visit my dad last Tuesday, and before doing so, I did clean out one of my Eheim 2217's. The fine filter pad was brown guck, so it was definitely time. I was going to do the second one today (normally Saturday is TM day, but we just got back late last night, so had to be content with a 25% change. Will do another tomorrow. But I digress...). As it turns out, I am not going to do a canister cleaning today because I need every bacterium I can get. 

Why? (So glad you asked.) In another gift from being a part of this network, I had the good fortune to visit a top breeder of rainbow fish on the way home from visiting my dad, because I had ordered 8 fish from him and was hoping to save the shipping charge. I also wanted to see his fish room, I'll admit. While there, we unexpectedly picked up more fish--bringing the total to 33 rainbow fish in an incredible RAOK. I got 8 breeds, with 33 fish in all. Many of these were F2's and F3's from Gary Lange's lines. I was stunned!

Normally, I wouldn't dump 33 fish into my tank in one day, but this was an exceptional opportunity. We drove 13 hours with these fish in breather bags, packed into the back seat, and they were all fine when we got home. We acclimated them, and put them into the main tank because my 27g QT tank wasn't big enough, and my 120 was basically empty. (Earlier posts record that we had 5 Denison Barbs, 5 Cory cats, 3 Ottos, and one boss gourami.) 

As we added rainbow fish to the darkened tank, the gourami started to bully them. I was not wanting them to stress any further, so with NO expectation of success, I put the net into the tank and jerked it up under him. By gum, I caught him! (I had tried on a previous occasion to catch him with no success... it was a great blessing last night!) So, we put the bully into the QT, and the 33 new rainbows into the main tank.

This morning, they are all doing really well. SO BEAUTIFUL! The breeder had put names on the bags, but the long trip ruined some of the labels, and I had simply relied on him to pick fish for me. So I'm going to rely on @Greggz to help me identify what I've got. Here's what I'm thinking I got:

5 Aytinjo Boesemani 
4 Malanotaenia Herbetaxelrod
4 Malanotaenia Papuae
2 Affinis Pagwi
7 Melanotaenia praecox "Pagai"
4 Glossolepis wanamensis
4 Harvey Creek Signifers
3 Malanotaenia Kamaka

I'm working at uploading pictures/videos. . WOW, what a Christmas/New Year's this has been! SO grateful and blessed.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Alrighty: pictures!

Here I think we have M. Kamaka









Bump: And are these m. Papuae?









And here... I think these are the three juvenile Aytinjo Boesemani









This is one of the stunning M. Pagai Praecox 









This is Glossolepis wanamensis


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

This is the blue eye Signifier


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Imperfect FTS


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## Riza1990 (Aug 11, 2016)

M. Papuae have an olive green cast to them, which it's hard to tell from the pictures if those guys do. (Hopefully this image shows up)









Beautiful fish, either way! And quite the lucky event getting them all in one go. 

Edit: I forgot to add, gorgeous tank!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Some shots of the vivid colors...




























And what is this?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Wow! What a beautiful collection and wonderful variety of Rainbows. You are very fortunate, as these come from a very respected breeder and you can be assured they are very high quality stock. 

I also noticed you have some pretty mature fish there, which are almost impossible to purchase. Just goes to show it pays to be in the right place at the right time.

And you have all the species correct. What a thrill it must be to fill up a tank like that so quickly! I'm happy for you, and keep up the posting of the pictures. Some of those will mature even further, and the whole tank will become even more beautiful with time.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

And I forgot to mention that last picture is Affinis Pagwi. The orange/red thin stripes on the tail will become more pronounced over time. 

And by the way, that mature male M. Kamaka is a beauty. Takes them a loooong time to look like that.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Wow, very impressive! And yes, I am jealous 
I am always amazed at either how nice the coloring is on good stock or how poor the coloring is on generic stock. 
I am getting a better understanding and appreciation for those who can spot top quality fish. Your full tank shot looks great to me! Looking forward to how your new guests develop.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Riza1990 said:


> M. Papuae have an olive green cast to them, which it's hard to tell from the pictures if those guys do. (Hopefully this image shows up)


Not sure if mine do or not... they are still a bit stressed from travel. I'll look more tomorrow, and thanks for the picture!



> Beautiful fish, either way! And quite the lucky event getting them all in one go.
> 
> Edit: I forgot to add, gorgeous tank!


Thanks so much! I have long felt that this would be a fish tank with plants, but the more I've learned about planted tanks, the more I want to have both: beautiful fish AND healthy, vibrant plants. Folks here on this site have both inspired and helped me. MOST of my plants have algae growing on them and/or are "weeds" (fast growers) that I plan to replace with more unusual plants when I get my tank even more stabilized. My new CO2 valve will help with that! I'm eager to receive it and start using it.

Bump:


Greggz said:


> Wow! What a beautiful collection and wonderful variety of Rainbows. You are very fortunate, as these come from a very respected breeder and you can be assured they are very high quality stock.
> 
> I also noticed you have some pretty mature fish there, which are almost impossible to purchase. Just goes to show it pays to be in the right place at the right time.


Truly, Gregg! Basically, what the breeder told me was that many of these were his "backup breeders" but that he had enough for next summer's crop, so he was willing to let them go to a good home.



> And you have all the species correct. What a thrill it must be to fill up a tank like that so quickly! I'm happy for you, and keep up the posting of the pictures. Some of those will mature even further, and the whole tank will become even more beautiful with time.


It was a total, UNEXPECTED thrill. I just keep staring at them. As you know, pictures don't do them justice. I've never before seen quality rainbows "in the scales" and they are indeed stunning. SO glad I decided to keep this species instead of the cichlids that I'd first planned on.

Bump:


Greggz said:


> And I forgot to mention that last picture is Affinis Pagwi. The orange/red thin stripes on the tail will become more pronounced over time.
> 
> And by the way, that mature male M. Kamaka is a beauty. Takes them a loooong time to look like that.


Ah, good to know. And the Kamaka: I guess he was one of those that the breeder had no more use for... my gain! :smile2:

THANKS for confirming my quesses!

Bump:


Immortal1 said:


> Wow, very impressive! And yes, I am jealous
> I am always amazed at either how nice the coloring is on good stock or how poor the coloring is on generic stock.
> I am getting a better understanding and appreciation for those who can spot top quality fish. Your full tank shot looks great to me! Looking forward to how your new guests develop.


Awww, thanks Linn. Do you keep rainbows, too? I wasn't aware, if so.

I would not have known to look for good stock if it wasn't for @Greggz. Again, I owe so much to the folks here, and of course, to the Good God who has blessed me so much, even though I am a newbie!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Yes Tanks, I think I likely have to blame Gregg for getting into rainbows also LOL. I think I sent almost an hour one day trying to get a good picture of one of my bows where the picture looked like what I see in person. Never did get the right pic. The iridescent color just does not photograph very well. This is my tank.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Immortal1 said:


> Yes Tanks, I think I likely have to blame Gregg for getting into rainbows also LOL. I think I sent almost an hour one day trying to get a good picture of one of my bows where the picture looked like what I see in person. Never did get the right pic. The iridescent color just does not photograph very well. This is my tank.


Hey Linn that is a good one LOL. If I am part of the cause for you getting into Rainbow fish, I happily take the blame. 

The thing about Rainbows is that the little colorless minnow you buy today can turn into a beautiful colorful mature adult.......if you know what you are looking for and have the patience.

Now as to good pictures......80% luck.....20% skill. I must say, Tanks! got some pretty nice pictures there right out of the gate! Nice work!:grin2:


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Yes Tanks, I think I likely have to blame Gregg for getting into rainbows also LOL. I think I sent almost an hour one day trying to get a good picture of one of my bows where the picture looked like what I see in person. Never did get the right pic. The iridescent color just does not photograph very well. This is my tank.


Linn: Nice tank. You have some mature fish. How long has your tank been up and running? Some of them must be big if that's a 75!

Bump:


Greggz said:


> Hey Linn that is a good one LOL. If I am part of the cause for you getting into Rainbow fish, I happily take the blame.


I bet your YouTube vid has inspired many, Gregg. I know it did me. I had planned to choose my fish according to my given water parameters (Kh of 10 and pH of 7.5-8 out of the tap) and not the other way around as I thought about mounting this 120, and initially thought that pretty much meant cichlids. Problems for me were 1) they all kind of look the same to me and 2) you cant do lush planting with them around, typically. So, I went on a hunt and discovered rainbow fish, then I went to YouTube looking for inspirations/visuals. Your tank was especially inspiring to me, Gregg, because it was the same size as mine.



> Now as to good pictures......80% luck.....20% skill. I must say, Tanks! got some pretty nice pretty nice pictures there right out of the gate! Nice work!:grin2:


Beginner's luck and a newish iPhone SE. Also, as has been said, great fish to photo makes it easier! :wink2:


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Thank-you @tanks. My tank has been running for about 2 years now. The bigger rainbows have been in the tank for about 1.5 years (5-2-2015). The big boys, Melanotaenia splendida tatei, are around 4" long.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Thank-you @tanks. My tank has been running for about 2 years now. The bigger rainbows have been in the tank for about 1.5 years (5-2-2015). The big boys, Melanotaenia splendida tatei, are around 4" long.


Just read your build thread. The plumbing and wiring reminded me of how we did our 180 reef tank about 10 years ago. Sadly, we had to sell the house, but before that happened, we had warm salt water mixing in the basement and then pumped (on a switch upstairs) up thru the wall for water changes. It was pretty sweet. And outlets where we needed them. Sigh. That was then; this is now. I'll always love reef tanks, but the rainbows are making me glad I've made the switch to freshwater.

ABOUT ALGAE

I still have some here and there. @burr740: if you see this. My photoperiod is at about 8 hours, and my CO2 turns my drop checker green, but that's with a half-strength drop checker solution, so I'm guessing 15 ppm at the top of its peak. (I'll know more when my new valve comes.) I know I could/should switch to T5s, and hope to, but was wondering a few things:

1. Could I now up the EI dosing? I'm going at about half the suggested amounts.
2. Can one remove algified segments of plants and leave the parts that seem healthier, rather than tearing out the whole plant?

I only have spot algae (I think? Green stuff on the aquarium glass). I have BBA on one of the crypts you first gave me.

The rest of the tank has green algae here and there on leaves.

Any systemic or specific advice for me?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Hey Marcia!

1. I really doubt you need more ferts, especially with that fish load...but you might. It wont hurt anything to increase the macros to full EI levels. I'd leave the micros at 1/2 for now.

2. Yes. Its definitely is a good idea to pinch/prune any ratty leaves with algae, and any dead or dying leaves. Keeping all that removed should be a regular routine actually. 

You're still in the early stage with this tank, so it's normal to go through a few algae phases, especially green types. 

Green spot algae (gsa) is hard dots, it wont wipe off leaves. 

Green dust algae (gda) is soft and can be wiped off. Seems like every tank Ive set up goes through a gda phase after about a month or two. Just keep plugging along, keep it wiped down as best you can, clean conditions, etc, it tends to disappear on it's own.

BBA is often related to poor CO2.

The best defense against all algae is healthy plants. I suspect you dont have enough CO2. CO2 is the number one nutrient your plants need, by a long shot. The more light you have, the higher the demand for CO2 is going to be. 

Since we dont know exactly what those vho's are putting out, safer to assume you have a lot of light. (it sure looks bright in the pics)

Drop checkers are a rough guess under the best of circumstances. You really cant rely on one to say if you have enough CO2. On top of which, you're using half strength drop checker liquid. It's changing colors, so you know you have some, but how much is anybody's guess.

My thoughts are you need to crank the co2 up - a lot! Just do it slowly and watch the fish for signs of discomfort. 

Forget the drop checker. To get a better idea, compare the PH of the tank when the co2 is on, with the PH of tank water[ that's been sat out for 24 hours.

Ideally you should see a full 1 point drop, and it should get there by the time lights come on, or pretty soon after. 

For this you'll need a digital PH pen, cant use liquid tests or dip sticks. They're like $15 on amazon. You'll also need calibration solutions, another $10 or so. It will be the single best investment you can make at this point.

The alternative is to not waste your time trying to measure it, just slowly increase CO2 until the fish show signs of discomfort. Then back it down to where they are comfortable again. This is as good a method as any, imo.

Then...once you get the co2 in a good range, you can use whatever color the drop checker shows as a quick visual reference to make sure it's staying that way. This is about all they're good for anyway, imo.

In the meantime keep things clean, manually remove any algae you can, and focus on good CO2. 

Tank is looking good btw!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

burr740 said:


> Hey Marcia!
> 
> You're still in the early stage with this tank, so it's normal to go through a few algae phases, especially green types.


That's comforting! :grin2:



> Green spot algae (gsa) is hard dots, it wont wipe off leaves.


This is what is on the leaves of the beautiful Lagenandra "red round" that you sent to me. I love this plant so much, and in the two months I've had it it's put out three (maybe four) new leaves. The thing is that each one falls pray to GSA *and* BBA. It's really the worst in there for those. I keep wondering if I should trim the leaves or yank out the whole plant. Seems that to trim them gives the plant less of a chance to win through... I have two Alternanthera Reineckii Variegated minis in there, and they were similar. I left them alone, and now have lots of new growth ABOVE the old, diseased leaves. My plan is to trim those off during next maintenance, and let the good growth win out. I've gone back and forth on what to do for the poor Lagenandra... thoughts?

By contrast, the green crypt you sent to me, Green Gecko, is rocketing along. Been meaning to ask you how to propagate from it since it loves my tank and has lovely green colors.



> Since we dont know exactly what those vho's are putting out, safer to assume you have a lot of light. (it sure looks bright in the pics)


Yeah... I've actually been wondering about that. I'm committed to getting a new light this year, and I love T5s. I'm thinking that my canopy will only accommodate a 4 bulb fixture, such as ones that you've recommended in the past. (My thanks as always.) My concern is whether the new light would reach to the substrate. My tank is 26" deep, and the lights sit inside a 10" high canopy, so the bulbs will be something like 8" (?) off the surface. Do you have any idea what my PAR might be at the substrate? For purposes of comparison, how high above substrate was your fixture on your 75? I know you are using 6 bulbs over your 120... is it as tall as mine is? Any issues? I don't want to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire here... ya know? Maybe @Hoppy knows if you don't...



> Drop checkers are a rough guess under the best of circumstances. You really cant rely on one to say if you have enough CO2. On top of which, you're using half strength drop checker liquid. It's changing colors, so you know you have some, but how much is anybody's guess.
> 
> My thoughts are you need to crank the co2 up - a lot! Just do it slowly and watch the fish for signs of discomfort.
> 
> ...


I've been considering getting a pH controller, not for the purposes of controlling the solenoid of the CO2, but for the purposes of having a failsafe. I would put it onto a timer, and only have it operative if the CO2 got way high while I'm not home. As an added bonus, it would accurately measure CO2 at any time. 



> The alternative is to not waste your time trying to measure it, just slowly increase CO2 until the fish show signs of discomfort. Then back it down to where they are comfortable again. This is as good a method as any, imo.


Rememering that I have that awesome valve coming from @kevmo911, I am willing to crank it up slowly, however I now have fish that I care about, so am squeamish about this approach.



> Then...once you get the co2 in a good range, you can use whatever color the drop checker shows as a quick visual reference to make sure it's staying that way. This is about all they're good for anyway, imo.
> 
> In the meantime keep things clean, manually remove any algae you can, and focus on good CO2.
> 
> Tank is looking good btw!


Yup, and thanks.

I feel like I have SO far to go with plants, though I believe that the fish population will now be stable for years to come. I can't believe that I've not had an amonia spike since adding 33 fish at once, but I guess that's the added benefit of plants, and also the tank is 2 months old, not brand new. Still, it surprised me. I've been testing morning and evening, and so far, no spikes. 

I have maintenance down to a reliable science. Every Saturday, I do a 50% (or more) water change and prune/rearrange plants. I definitely have some that like the tank conditions better than others, so I plan to go more with those than with the ones that seem to struggle. 

It's getting time to propagate a few more, and buy a few more plants that I really want in there (removing the more common ones, like the Wisteria that I got to fill in). Pennywort grows about 5" per week in my tank, and makes a nice screen for my tank back. The tops of it, up near the light, have some brown algae as well. Interestingly, two of the 4 stems of Limnophilia aromatica that you sent to me are growing tall (about 18" currently). Between them are two of their mates that are about half their size. I'm wondering why?

The fluviatilis didn't make it (early problems with over dosing, I think) and my gourami (now removed from the tank) feasted on the pogosteman erectus... which had been doing only so so (algae was getting the better of it). Also, sadly, an early casualty was the Myriophyllum 'red stem' which I loved.The Ludwigia sp red (also a fav with me) has grown tall, but it's the one with some sections that are infested with brown algae. So, my plan now is to trim it, and also propagate a branch or two.

All this to say I'm gonna need more plants, but I want to get the CO2 doing better before I do. Right now, the Wisteria and Staurogyne low grow and Pennywort are providing a lot of plant mass that helps me learn. Also doing well are Bacopa Salzmannii that I got from @Bartohog and (to a lesser degree) Bacopa colorata and Crypto Wendtii Bronze. However, Hyptis Lorentziana isn't too happy... tall and lanky. Methinks the CO2 is at fault here, too.

I'll be interested to read your thoughts about a T5 light reaching my substrate. TIA for sharing your wisdom, Burr!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Well, idk if I'd call it "wisdom", just trials and many errors is more like it. 

Laganandra is a plant that's perfectly capable of sloughing algae off by itself once it gets happy. If there's some older lower leaves in bad shape, use scissors and cut those off at the substrate. Newer leaves that are otherwise healthy, just leave them alone and see what happens.

Propagating crypts, these will start forming baby plants at the base, and also new plants will sprout 2"-3" inches from the mother via runners. You can pull these up, cut the runner and replant. Or, when the main plant gets nice and thick, pull the whole thing up up and you'll see that it's actually comprised of many smaller plants. These can all be pulled apart and replanted separately.

4 T5HOs with good reflectors like the units we've discussed will be plenty to reach the substrate at 32'-34". Plenty. 

9" above my 75 was anywhere from 105-130 PAR at the sub, depending on the bulbs used. That's a whopping amount of light.

21" tall tank
+
9" above
-
3"-4" of substrate

Allowing for the substrate, you're looking at being 4"-6" higher than that. Should easily be in the 70-90 range, which is plenty for anything but still pretty easy to manage.

As for bulbs I'd suggest using a couple 6500Ks combined with a couple red/pink types, like Truelumen Flora or Zoo-med Flora Sun. Both are nice, and cheap.

All 6500Ks, for example, arent going to look that great from a color rendition standpoint, and they typically have higher par than the reddish types. The heavier red is good for plants and will make the Rainbow's color pop better.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

So, all is looking good in the tank. New 'bows are settling in nicely. Still no ammonia spike, so I think we're past that danger. I'm planning to clean my second canister filter today and do a 25% water change, since on Saturday we drove all day and I only gave it a 25% change before putting the new 'bows in.

Question for you guys who have rainbow fish: the breeder from whom I got my fish said to feed them flakes in the main and plain, and then frozen blood worms and brine shrimp as supplements. I know from research that they have tiny throats, so food must be fine. I have quality flakes, and I grind them between my fingers, but then they just stay on top of the water, caught in the surface tension. Even right in the spray bar, they don't tumble down as I would expect. So, the food floats on the surface and the 'bows just sit there in the mid-range of the tank looking at it. 

Do you guys use a feeding stick? Agitate the water for them? Use different feeds? Do tell!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

In my experience, Rainbow fish will eat almost anything. Keep in mind, with any new food, it may take a while for them to recognize it as food. Sometimes it may take several days.

Personally, I feed a wide variety. My staple food is New Life Spectrum 1mm Sinking Pellets. I sprinkle them gently on the surface, and they will float for a bit then sink. Rarely do any make it to the bottom.

I also feed a mix of the foods pictured below.








In addition to those, I have probably 5 large bags of other types of flakes. Things like beefheart, spirulina, etc. And then every few days they get frozen brine and bloodworms.

Right now your Bows are fresh to that tank, and it might take a few days before they get really comfortable and start feeding well. I wouldn’t get too carried away worrying about their small throats, they can eat most things just fine. 

If you’re worried about the really little ones, freeze dried Tubiflex works well to get them started. The wiggly looking very small worms really bring out the hunting/feeding instinct. 

Again, I wouldn’t worry too much. Once they settle in, you will find that Rainbow are always hungry and not too picky at all.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

LOL, Marcia will also likely want to keep a towel around during feeding time. I seem to remember Gregg posting something about bringing out the "hunting/feeding instinct" in his fish. Or was it the splashing and gulping instinct? 

Yes, my bows seem happy eating just about anything I drop in the water. The really funny part for my wife is I feed the fish around the same time every day. When I walk up to the tank on the right hand side about that time of the day EVERYBODY swims over to the corner. And sometimes, you do get a bit wet.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Just for the record (so I can remember) I changed the second canister filter today, and did a 30% water change. 

Can you overfeed them on blood worms? I'm putting in two "carnivore" frozen cubes and they are gone in under a minute. They are a combination of blood worms, mysis shrimp, and brine shrimp.

And, what is the brand name of those bags of food, Gregg? I can't quite make it out?


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## nyskiffie (Mar 23, 2016)

You can definitely overfeed on bloodworms! I don't know much about rainbows specifically but bloodworms are very very high in protein and low in fiber, even by comparison with mysis shrimp etc. So you can have bloating issues. 

You need to mix in a lot of high fiber foods as well if you're feeding primarily bloodworms.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

nyskiffie said:


> You can definitely overfeed on bloodworms! I don't know much about rainbows specifically but bloodworms are very very high in protein and low in fiber, even by comparison with mysis shrimp etc. So you can have bloating issues.
> 
> You need to mix in a lot of high fiber foods as well if you're feeding primarily bloodworms.


Thanks! The cubes have, like, 5-7 worms each, but I read somewhere about bloating and black worms, so I thought I'd ask. What are high fiber foods, then?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> Just for the record (so I can remember) I changed the second canister filter today, and did a 30% water change.
> 
> Can you overfeed them on blood worms? I'm putting in two "carnivore" frozen cubes and they are gone in under a minute. They are a combination of blood worms, mysis shrimp, and brine shrimp.
> 
> And, what is the brand name of those bags of food, Gregg? I can't quite make it out?


Tanks! I'm glad you asked. They just became a forum sponsor a few days back. Here is where you can find them. Buying bulk packages is much cheaper in the long run, and I have always found them to be great quality.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/282-aquatic-foods-blackworm-co/1104858-welcome-aquatic-foods-blackworm-co.html

Now as to blood worms, I can only speak from my personal experience. I've been feeding lots of blood worms to Rainbows for decades, and have never once seen bloat, or any ill effects for that matter. Just long lived healthy colorful fish. I wouldn't worry about it at all.

It's one of those things I think gets repeated so much it becomes part of the lore. Kind of like Rainbows need a diet high in veggies. Gary Lange has said it's not true, and in the wild they eat a lot of insects, worms, and high protein food. In some locations where they are collected, there is very little if any vegetation to be found. 

I've also read many, many times that Rainbows in an all male tank won't get colorful. It gets repeated over and over. I have a lot of experience keeping both mixed sex and all male tanks and haven't seen an ounce of difference. 

So always take things you read with a grain of salt, and let your own experience be your guide.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Greggz said:


> So always take things you read with a grain of salt, and let your own experience be your guide.


+1 this is great advice for the hobby in general


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Well, I've had an eventful couple of days. We are on well water here, so when it rains, stuff gets into our water. It changes color, and gets a bit murky. Yesterday was water change day, and I didn't think that murky would hurt, so I did the change. Then I had a face palm moment when I realized that probably the nitrates would be higher than the normal 10 ppm. So, I tested. Yup: they were at 40. Well, the water wasn't going to settle down for a bit, 'cause it was still raining. I went to bed with a prayer that they'd be okay.

This AM, all was well. The filter had taken care of some murk. But, I knew the nitrates were still high. After church and family lunch, I came home and tested the tap water, and it was back down at 10 ppm, so I did a 70% change. Well, as I was doing that much of a change, my loosely stacked driftwood came down, so I decided to rescape the entire tank. Three hours later, this was the result. (Note: I've still got a bunch of "starter plants" in there while I grow out slower-growing ones that I really want. However, I like the new driftwood arrangement a lot. The fish are swimming around and through them, and there's a whole lot more room for water flow.)










All the fish were SO happy after the water change, and some of them colored up way more than usual, so I snapped a few pictures. 

Male Signifer...










Shoaling Melanotaenia praecox "Pagai"










Ever more beautiful Aytinjo Boesemani. Looks really different from many Internet posts for Boesemani: not blue and yellow, but orange tail, multicolored front, and a bright sky blue stripe on his dorsal fin. (This last is hard to capture in still shots.)










This fish, affinis pagwi, especially, has changed so much in just the week or so I've had him. Here's the shot tonight (which doesn't even do him justice: he has neon orange stripes on his aft section, and starting to have greens and blues on his front parts. Stunning!): 










And here he is the morning after I first got him home:











Oh, and they are finally going to the surface to find flakes, etc. Yay!

My next adventure is to try to upload a video or two of these beautiful fish. Stay tuned to the Wetter Chanel to see how I get on with that! (You can't post them here, right? They have to be linked to a YouTube?)


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I have found linking to YouTube videos is the easiest way for me. 
Tank is looking Great! Gotta love those face plant moments, but they usually end up being learning experiences. 40 on the nitrates is likely no big deal - pretty sure my tank never gets below 40 but then again, I have terrible luck with API Nitrate test kits. Your affinis pagwi is going to be a real beauty!


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

Tanks the tank looks great (and that was fun to type). Glad all is happy and really nice pictures as well.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Alrighty: here's a link to my first fish video ever.

https://youtu.be/NNbylULkS_k

And here's part 2. (The dings are my cell phone across the room telling me that I had a txt message.)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WmRzHeX9DDQ#

Thanks for the kind comments. Watching fish is getting to be my favorite evening pass time!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Pretty cool video! Curious, are you using your cell phone? (iPhone if I remember right) If so, does it have any settings to increase the video quality? My Samsung S6 is capable of HD at 60 frames per second which takes forever to upload but the video quality looks incredible if you have a fast enough internet connection to watch it.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

I used to have a Samsung Galaxy tablet, but this year converted to all Apple devices. For this vid, I used an iPad mini2. We have satellite internet, so although my device is HD capable, I don't want to use the bandwidth.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! nice pictures and videos.

Rainbows do love a nice large water change. Brings out their best colors, and makes them pretty frisky in general.

And like Immortal1 said, I wouldn't worry too much about the nitrates at all. Rainbows are are pretty hardy fish, and nitrates at 40ppm is no problem. Mine are also normally higher than that. In fact, my plants prefer it.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Tanks! nice pictures and videos.
> 
> Rainbows do love a nice large water change. Brings out their best colors, and makes them pretty frisky in general.
> 
> And like Immortal1 said, I wouldn't worry too much about the nitrates at all. Rainbows are are pretty hardy fish, and nitrates at 40ppm is no problem. Mine are also normally higher than that. In fact, my plants prefer it.


GTK: And, out of curiosity, @Greggz, what temperature do you keep your tank at? I see so many different ranges. I know that each species has its special preferences, but what do we do with a community tank such as ours?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> GTK: And, out of curiosity, @Greggz, what temperature do you keep your tank at? I see so many different ranges. I know that each species has its special preferences, but what do we do with a community tank such as ours?


I keep mine between 77 & 78. But that being said, I don't think there is any magic number. 

I ran the tank with the heaters off this fall, just to see what the temp would fall to. It only got down to about 74 at the low end, and the fish seemed happy as usual.

In the peak of the summer, heater rarely comes on, and tank stays closer to 79. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

And on another topic, looking forward to seeing how the new lights work out. Did you go with 4' or 5' lights?


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

> And on another topic, looking forward to seeing how the new lights work out. Did you go with 4' or 5' lights?


Well, I haven't really gotten around to ordering them yet. It's been a busy couple of days. I am thinking of going with the 48 inch, mostly because it seems like I can find bulbs pretty easily. Do you think that I actually could find the 5' bulbs? I sure don't know where to! Staggering the 4 foot fixtures would work fine my tank. That's the way the VA chose her now, and each fixture is significantly cheaper. So that's my plan. Thoughts?

Bump: @Greggz: You wondered how Signifers would do in a community tank. The dominant male that I got is a good 2 1/2 inches long, if not 3 inches. His lady is smaller, more like 2 inches. Both of them are very fast, and at feeding time they really hold their own. One thing that they're willing to do is to go up to the surface and get the chow, whilst their companions wait for the food to fall from the surface down into the water column. It's interesting to see the habits of the various species of rainbowfish. I love watching them interact. Each one finds a different place in the tank, and the pecking order!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> Well, I haven't really gotten around to ordering them yet. It's been a busy couple of days. I am thinking of going with the 48 inch, mostly because it seems like I can find bulbs pretty easily. Do you think that I actually could find the 5' bulbs? I sure don't know where to! Staggering the 4 foot fixtures would work fine my tank. That's the way the VA chose her now, and each fixture is significantly cheaper. So that's my plan. Thoughts?
> 
> Bump: @Greggz: You wondered how Signifers would do in a community tank. The dominant male that I got is a good 2 1/2 inches long, if not 3 inches. His lady is smaller, more like 2 inches. Both of them are very fast, and at feeding time they really hold their own. One thing that they're willing to do is to go up to the surface and get the chow, whilst their companions wait for the food to fall from the surface down into the water column. It's interesting to see the habits of the various species of rainbowfish. I love watching them interact. Each one finds a different place in the tank, and the pecking order!


I have 4' lights over a 5' tank. I don't stagger them, just centered in the middle. So there are 6" on each end that are dimmer, but you would never know it by looking at the tank. I keep plants that are less light needy on the ends, mostly various crypts.

Like you I was concerned about the availability and selection of 5' bulbs, and they are pricier. 4' bulbs are readily available, cheaper, and lots of different colors/hues to experiment with. Hope that helps.

As to the Sig's, that's interesting to hear. I've never kept them, but might consider it now. My main concern was competing for food with full grown 5"+ Bows. Sounds like it is working for you.

And I'm glad to hear how you are enjoying your tank. Good news is the Rainbows will only get better with time.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

So, last night I was just hanging out enjoying my tank when I noticed that my fish were darker in color and not as active. I got a hunch and did an amonia test: it's at .50 ppm, but nitrites at 0. I've peered in and around all that I can see of a planted tank and no obvious dead fish to be seen... so, I don't know what's causing it. It could be that I'm feeding too much..? it's hard to gauge how much to feed that many more fish. I did a 60% water change, but my question is: will that do it? I know that the beneficial bacteria will recover in 24 hours, typically, in a healthy tank. I put in a very low dose of Prime this morning after testing again, and finding that I still had .25 ppm's.

I have been wondering if I am under filtered for the long haul. I have 46 fish... 5 are Cory cats, 3 are Ottos, 5 are Denison barbs, and 33 are rainbows, some of which won't get big (Signifers, dwarf neon, etc.). In fact, none of my rainbowfish should get over 4". Still... are 2 Eheim 2217s enough? This ammonia spike has me wondering, since I can't tie it to any single event, like a dead fish or anything like that. Thoughts?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

I would guess you are seeing a mini cycle from the large addition of fish. That was a big increase in your bio load, and you may just now be seeing the effect.

Good news is it is more than likely temporary. I'd keep a close eye on the ammonia and nitrites, and try to keep ammonia below .5ppm. Keep doing partial water changes, every day if you have to. 

I've had these types of spikes from changing substrate or moving the tank. They are usually short lived. I'm betting your tank just needs a little time to catch up. Main thing right now is keeping those Bows healthy while it happens.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> I would guess you are seeing a mini cycle from the large addition of fish. That was a big increase in your bio load, and you may just now be seeing the effect.
> 
> Good news is it is more than likely temporary. I'd keep a close eye on the ammonia and nitrites, and try to keep ammonia below .5ppm. Keep doing partial water changes, every day if you have to.
> 
> I've had these types of spikes from changing substrate or moving the tank. They are usually short lived. I'm betting your tank just needs a little time to catch up. Main thing right now is keeping those Bows healthy while it happens.


That sounds right. Changing water is not hard for me to do. I have a great setup with a nearby open window for quick draining, and a nearby sink for refilling via a python. THANKS for the advice/reassurance, @Greggz!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

So, the mini-cycle is over. Really, it was just 24 hours. It's been totally at zero for 36 hours. Whew! So relieved. I did a big front panel algae cleaning tonight, and am loving the clarity and colorful my fish. Rainbowfish are eye candy, for sure!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> So, the mini-cycle is over. Really, it was just 24 hours. It's been totally at zero for 36 hours. Whew! So relieved. I did a big front panel algae cleaning tonight, and am loving the clarity and colorful my fish. Rainbowfish are eye candy, for sure!


Tanks! that's good to hear. I figured it was going to be a short spike. 

A cycled tank adjusts pretty quickly. You should have smooth sailing now!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

As you may know, I've been unhappy with the lights that came with my used system, and after New Year's, I finally got the funds together to replace them. WOOT! 

My tank is 60” x 18” X 26”. To replace the four, 4' VHO bulbs (each one a 10K daylight bulb, 54 watt) I bought two fixtures, with total light being 4 X 54W, with 48” T5 HO bulbs and good quality polished reflectors. The back and front bulbs are Zoo Med Ocean Sun 10,000K, center bulbSo with a 60” tank, and 48” bulbs, I have 6” of tank on both sides with no light directly above. These light fixtures are mounted up inside a canopy, so lights are about 10” from the water surface, and 28” from the top of substrate. 

Since each of the two fixtures came with one actinic and one 10K daylight, I only bought two others: TruLumin Flora and Zoo Med Flora Sun. Front to back, it's TL Flora, Actinic, Zoo Med Flora Sun, 10,000 K Daylight. (I also installed the waterproof LED strips on these fixtures for "viewing" purposes, but they are not on when the main bulbs are. They are pretty weak: I don't think that any photosynthesis goes on when they are on alone.)

2) It's been about 10 days since installing these, and been playing about with photoperiods. Right now, this is the system:
7 AM: LEDs kick on.
9 AM: LEDs kick off.
2 PM: CO2 kicks on
3 PM: Front fixture (main lights; Flora/Actinic) kicks on.
4 PM: Back fixture (Flora/10 K daylight) kicks on
8 PM: CO2 kicks off.
9 PM: Front fixture off; LEDs on.
9:30 PM: Back fixture off; LEDs on.
10:00: all lights out

FYI: This is less light, I think, than when I had my VHOs... (all 10Ks, and all on at the same time from 3 PM to 10 PM, daily).

Question: I have algae growing quicker on my front glass, but the plants seem a bit more algae free, overall. Why?

I don't love the overall look of the tank so far. I want a warmer tone. I'm thinking of losing the actinic, and possibly buying this light bulb. 

Here are "before and after" pictures of my tank with VHO vs. new T5 array:

VHO:









NEW T5s:









NOTE: In the 2nd picture of the new array, I've got the camera tilted to take in far more of the surface than the picture with the VHOs. I'm going to try tonight to take another shot that is more "dead on" like the VHO shot for a better comparison. If I succeed, I'll replace the picture above.

That said: what do you think? Is the changed noticeable, better, not so much?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! I already gave you my two cents on the lights. And subtle differences in light are hard to pick up in a photo. What matters is how it looks to YOU, in person. 

But the real reason I am chiming in is to compliment you on the tank. It really is coming along beautifully. 

You have come a long way in a short time. Well done.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Just noting the difference in how the plants in the tank look between the 2 pics - 2nd pic looks great!
Nice thing with your fixtures is you can always change 1 bulb and get a different/better look for not much money. 
Happy to hear / see things are progressing nicely


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Thanks, Friends! 

It is _really_ hard to capture light differences. Last night I switched out the actinic for a 10K daylight and I like the look much better. I'll be keeping it that way for awhile... until I _need_ new bulbs, I guess.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

I can’t believe it’s been so long since I posted~. My tank plants aren’t doing as well as in these photos... I had a busy summer and got away from my fertilizing routine, and have been having some issues with CO2, but had a big maintenance day yesterday and hopefully will be buying some new plants soon.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Funny I was just thinking about your tank earlier this week and wondered what happened to it. It has been a long time.

Glad to see you follow up.

Looking forward to seeing pics. How are the Bows doing??

Bump: Funny I was just thinking about your tank earlier this week and wondered what happened to it. It has been a long time.

Glad to see you follow up.

Looking forward to seeing pics. How are the Bows doing??


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

*What with one thing and another, two and a half years went by... *

We have been busy, and a lot has happened in our large, extended family. The tank got away from me, then it got depressing, then it got diseased, and finally I tore it all down. I was going to sell it all, but more things happened and I decided to refurbish and re-up!

I painted the stand black, took off the canopy, and bought a hybrid frame (Aquatic Life’s 61" G2 T5HO Hybrid LED T5 Mounting System) and two AI 16 Freshwater LED spotlights. We also moved the tank downstairs into our main living space (instead of our bedroom). This way, I see it during the day and hope that means I can take better care of it ongoing.

The 10 survivor fish made the jump to hyperspace, and a few of the best plants that were attached to driftwood, but that’s all right now. I have a few glass “planters” made out of Pyrex bread pans. I had an idea about planting stem plants (and possibly some crypts?) into the planters until I found out what would grow where, then putting in a sediment base... or not. Maybe keeping it bare bottom long term and using planters... not sure. What I AM sure of is that I don’t want a jungle again.

I need to get my CO2 working again. Sigh. That’s next week’s project. 

I need to remember how to post pictures....

@Greggz your tank looks AMAZING!!!


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

Tanks! great to see you back on your journal! I know how it can get when the disease/wasteland hits your tank, and I'm glad you're back at it. I can't wait to see pictures of your new setup.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Welcome back @TAnks.

Look forward to seeing some pics and more updates.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

So, here (I hope) are pictures of my tank now that I’ve painted the stand, removed the canopy, and bought a new light fixture. The first shot shows my whole tank setup.










The second shot is closer, showing my manifold and the “planters” that I’m thinking of starting with, along with my “survivor fish.”










*To explain the plumbing more fully:*

If you look closely, you’ll see a black PVC pipe running down the center to six outlets at the bottom, between the planters. (There is room for two more planters to the left, I just haven’t washed the sand to get them in yet.) That is my manifold; more on it below.











I am running two Eheim Pro 4+ 600s. The one on the left is just running as a filter, with Seachem in it. 

The other is plumbed as the “pump“ for the cerges/CO2, that feeds water/CO2 into the manifold that I also had on my old set up. This approach is a retro to my days keeping a reef tank, where we tried to get flow to the substrate. But, to be of any use, it has to be pretty high flow. In my current setup, and in the previous one, I’m using the manifold to get CO2 delivered at the bottom of the tank, and also was _hoping_ for some flow to keep detritus off the bottom of my bare tank. So far, the flow is really slow, so I’m puzzling out a new plumbing scheme.

Currently, both Eheims have an alteration in how they are set up from the manufacturer. There are four media trays, and right now I have a coarse filter sponge at the BOTTOM tray, then three trays of Seachem, because I don’t want debris entering my biological trays and gunking them up. Eheim sends two trayfuls of “Mech” with the filter. They are supposed to be mechanical filters, but what they are really is floating plastic pieces that do no good any way, as far as I can tell. I am wondering, though, if the flow is too slowed by my mods. Maybe anyone who uses these filters can chime in? I am considering adding a third canister filter OR an external pump to drive the cerges, and just use the second Eheim as a true filter...?

*About the planters and bare bottom tank.* 

I am considering my options for planting. My last tank was a tangled mess by the time I finally threw in the towel and abandoned it. I have SO much to learn about plants that I thought I might control things better if I kept a bare bottom tank and had planters in which I could experiment, and then, if they didn’t work out, I could easily remove and replant. Some could have substrate, some could be just sand... and I could see what works best under my management. Anyone have any thoughts on this? PLEASE chime in.

Of course, I could just wash and reuse all my old sand. I just don’t want a jungle again... and I want to choose plants that I really enjoy looking at and propagating. I realize that tinkering/maintenance is necessary... I’m just not sure about re-sanding the entire tank... and have also toyed with the idea of putting in a substrate... but if I don’t need to, then ... WHY? Burr740 seems to do great in just sand, so I’m not in a hurry to go the dirt/substrate route, especially since my tank is cycled already.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Interesting idea regarding the 6 nozzles for the co2. @Maryland Guppy is pretty famous for using small red solo cups for plants. Similar idea to your planters. Honestly, having movable planters may be good option to get various plants growing good and making for a movable assembly. Once you are happy with growth and arrangement, then add the sand back in. Maybe keep the plants in the planters for a month to allow the sand to build up some bacteria.

As for the Eheim filters - I have a Pro 4 - 350 on the wifes tank. Agreed, the plastic Eheim Mech sucks - don't like something that floats, especially during filter maintenance. Eheim also has smooth ceramic media to serve the same function - thats what I have in her filter. 

My biggest complaint about the Pro 4 filter is the top course filter. It fills u fast and does not really have a place for the debris to "fall" to. With your 4 trays, I would think some smooth rings in the bottom tray, course sponge in the next tray, bio mech, then the bio + filter floss would give better results.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> My biggest complaint about the Pro 4 filter is the top course filter. It fills u fast and does not really have a place for the debris to "fall" to. With your 4 trays, I would think some smooth rings in the bottom tray, course sponge in the next tray, bio mech, then the bio + filter floss would give better results.


Thanks for the response! Why do you favor keeping the mech? (Not arguing... asking. I don’t have mine anymore and I’m wondering if you feel strongly about it.)

It took me awhile to understand the flow pattern of the Eheim. The concept (as I’m sure you already know) is that the coarse top filter catches large debris and is easily maintained. So far, so good. But, the water then is sucked down the triangular column to the bottom and then pumped up through the trays and out of the canister. The concern I have is that as the water is sucked up through the trays, there’s a lot 

If I ditch the mech (which I already have — it’s gone) which is a PITA to deal with in maintenance, especially if it’s not housing beneficial bacteria but just there as a mechanical (how?) filter, I’d rather do coarse filter pads. The idea for putting one at the bottom was that the three trays in the middle with Seachem in them could be undisturbed for longer.

On this theory, I put one of the coarse pads, supplied for the top tray, backwards and back to back with one of the fine filter pads provided by Eheim. Then, as I said, three middle trays filled with Seachem. Do you think it matters TO FLOW where a fine filter pad is placed?


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Also, Linn, do you have a favorite filter? I’m considering taking the Eheim 600 off the cerges and putting something less powerful in its place, and then keeping the Eheim 600 running as a second simple bio/mechanical filter and probably with Purigen featured largely in the third “cerges driver canister.” If I do this, I’d like to get a decent model, so I’m wondering what your favorite is and why?

Bump:


Immortal1 said:


> Interesting idea regarding the 6 nozzles for the co2.


I’m actually contemplating taking it down to 4 nozzles, or even 2, to increase flow. There’s almost nothing coming out of the two end nozzles, and precious little coming from the next two, either. If the cerges is just going to be low flow, as Greggz asserts (and I understand why that should be so) the idea I’ve been contemplating is increasing overall flow by means of returning my Eheim 600 to a regular filter with a spray bar, probably remounting both Eheim spray bars on the back wall, somehow (Eheim doesn’t make that easy) and adding a third, smaller canister filter to power the CO2 and also filter Purigen into the system.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks! said:


> Thanks for the response! Why do you favor keeping the mech? (Not arguing... asking. I don’t have mine anymore and I’m wondering if you feel strongly about it.)
> 
> It took me awhile to understand the flow pattern of the Eheim. The concept (as I’m sure you already know) is that the coarse top filter catches large debris and is easily maintained. So far, so good. But, the water then is sucked down the triangular column to the bottom and then pumped up through the trays and out of the canister. The concern I have is that as the water is sucked up through the trays, there’s a lot
> 
> ...



For me, the ceramic MECH works as a good course filter media sitting in the lower most tray. It can be rinsed and re-used forever. In my old AquaTOP 500 filter, the bottom tray was ceramic rings, then a double stack of sponges (lower course, upper medium), then the next tray up was the bioMECH. The top tray was SubstratPRO with a filter floss pad at the very top. After a month of use, the bottom of the canister filter was a pretty gross mess. The sponges were dirty, but not bad, the filter floss was also dirty with very fine particles but still flowed like new. My only assumption is the progressively finer filter system kept most of the gunk in the very bottom (part of the reason I don't like the Pro4 having a smallish course filter on top).


As to overall flow of the filter - I don't think it matters where the fine filter is placed. Except, in my opinion, I would want a reasonable amount of mechanical filtration ahead of the filter floss just so it lasts a bit longer.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks! said:


> Also, Linn, do you have a favorite filter? I’m considering taking the Eheim 600 off the cerges and putting something less powerful in its place, and then keeping the Eheim 600 running as a second simple bio/mechanical filter and probably with Purigen featured largely in the third “cerges driver canister.” If I do this, I’d like to get a decent model, so I’m wondering what your favorite is and why?
> 
> Bump:
> 
> I’m actually contemplating taking it down to 4 nozzles, or even 2, to increase flow. There’s almost nothing coming out of the two end nozzles, and precious little coming from the next two, either. If the cerges is just going to be low flow, as Greggz asserts (and I understand why that should be so) the idea I’ve been contemplating is increasing overall flow by means of returning my Eheim 600 to a regular filter with a spray bar, probably remounting both Eheim spray bars on the back wall, somehow (Eheim doesn’t make that easy) and adding a third, smaller canister filter to power the CO2 and also filter Purigen into the system.



Right now my favorite filter is my Fluval FX4. But I suspect that would be a bit overkill for what you are proposing. 



With regards to your nozzle bar - how was it created? Is it more of a DIY assembly? The reason I ask, is with some basic flow calculations it should not be that hard to get the same volume of output from each nozzle regardless of its location. 

It honestly could be as easy as filling the end of the nozzle with hot glue then using various drill bit sizes to get your flow evened out between the 6 nozzles.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Hey Linn,

FILTERS

Thanks for all the above. Is there a smaller Fluval that you’d recommend? I am also going to need to filter my smaller grow out tank (in my stand in the picture above) but that’s maybe a topic for another day. (It’s an 18” cube, which I figure at 25 gallons, though it’s more like 22.

Where do you buy your coarse and medium sponges? Are they reusable?

NOZZELS: 

It IS a DIY, using 0.5” CPVC. Painted black. Today I finally got my CO2 up and running and in doing so, MUCH more flow came out of the nozzles. Go figure. Anyways, since it’s all underwater, it’s not glued together so I can play with it easily. I think I’m going to reduce it to four nozzles and see what the flow is. On page 1 or 2 of this journal you can see pictures of its assembly. As of today, I’m much happier with the flow, but I still might want to get a third canister... smaller, if you have recommendations.


QUESTIONS

@Greggz: I’m reading through your tank journal (SO HELPFUL) and am wondering about some things. Since I’m about two years back (on page 66) I’m wondering:

First: How do you like your Seneye Reef Monitor? Still a good tool? If so, a couple of questions:

1. Can you use it as a pH monitor?
2. Does it have to remain attached to a PC at all times? Any way to use it with a tablet instead?

Second: Can you point me to something that explains the whole theory of degassing/ pH drop method of measuring CO2. That whole discussion goes right over my head because I don’t understand the relationships of these elements. 

THANKS as always for being willing to share with us newbies.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> @Greggz: I’m reading through your tank journal (SO HELPFUL) and am wondering about some things. Since I’m about two years back (on page 66) I’m wondering:
> 
> First: How do you like your Seneye Reef Monitor? Still a good tool? If so, a couple of questions:
> 
> ...


Yes the Seneye is a good tool, but I really only use to measure PAR. It can be used as a pH monitor, but you have to keep buying the replacement slides to use it that way, which would get expensive fast.

The unit plugs into a USB port. The device needs to be able to run the Seneye software. Whether it's worth it depends on how often you will use it and what your goals are. If you just want a one time reading, PM me.

As to pH drop, it's really pretty simple. Water from the tap usually has CO2 in it (and other things too), which lowers the pH. So we "degas" the water to get a baseline pH reading. Easiest way is to set a cup of water out overnight with a bubbler in it. If no bubbler, leave the glass out for two days. The water will come into equilibrium with the atmosphere (3 to 4 ppm CO2). That reading would be your "degassed" value.

Also helps to know your KH value, as there should be a correlation between the degassed pH and KH. 

When you inject CO2, it drives down the pH level. Most shoot for about a 1.0 drop from the degassed value. Higher tech tanks go more like 1.2 to 1.4 drop. It requires close observation of the tank, as too much CO2 can affect your livestock.

I highly recommend a calibrated pH probe so that you can see immediate changes in pH. The cheap pens are OK but they fail pretty often and need to be replaced. They also need to be stored properly (wet), which is a usual cause of failure.

I prefer something like a Milwaukee or American Pinpoint that stays in the water full time and provides constant readings.

And keep in mind that O2 and CO2 are not mutually exclusive. That is you can lots of both. So be sure to have decent surface agitation to keep oxygen levels up. It's good for the fish and the tank in general.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

So, I’ve been considering for weeks what kind of ‘scape I’m going to want, and I plan to go for _mostly_ stem plants, starting in planters so I can see what’s best in my tank, and what arrangements I like. And though I know that driftwood takes up plant space, I love it, AND I want to have as much Buce in my tank as possible (even though it’s not a stem plant). So, today I pulled the trigger on this centerpiece stump. Will probably locate it left of center in my tank... center has the least light on purpose because I wanted to have some lower light plants, like petite nana. There are three shots of the same piece here. Of course I’ll have to wait and see what it looks like in the tank before I can decide its orientation, but it’s fun to think of possibilities. I know one thing: I hope it will host lots of Buce!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Yes the Seneye is a good tool, but I really only use to measure PAR. It can be used as a pH monitor, but you have to keep buying the replacement slides to use it that way, which would get expensive fast.
> 
> The unit plugs into a USB port. The device needs to be able to run the Seneye software. Whether it's worth it depends on how often you will use it and what your goals are. If you just want a one time reading, PM me.


I will PM you. I just want to know what my lights are giving me before I get started with plants. I’m running 4 5’ HO T5s, front and back of the tank, and then two AI Prime programmable LEDs over the right and left sides, leaving a darker space in the middle for an anticipated piece of driftwood. As I just posted, I just found the driftwood... but it will take awhile to season/submerge it. THANKS



Greggz said:


> As to pH drop, it's really pretty simple. Water from the tap usually has CO2 in it (and other things too), which lowers the pH. So we "degas" the water to get a baseline pH reading. Easiest way is to set a cup of water out overnight with a bubbler in it. If no bubbler, leave the glass out for two days. The water will come into equilibrium with the atmosphere (3 to 4 ppm CO2). That reading would be your "degassed" value.
> 
> Also helps to know your KH value, as there should be a correlation between the degassed pH and KH.
> 
> When you inject CO2, it drives down the pH level.


Following so far... but how do you measure that drop...? And when in the CO2 injection cycle?



Greggz said:


> Most shoot for about a 1.0 drop from the degassed value. Higher tech tanks go more like 1.2 to 1.4 drop. It requires close observation of the tank, as too much CO2 can affect your livestock.
> 
> I highly recommend a calibrated pH probe so that you can see immediate changes in pH. The cheap pens are OK but they fail pretty often and need to be replaced. They also need to be stored properly (wet), which is a usual cause of failure.
> 
> I prefer something like a Milwaukee or American Pinpoint that stays in the water full time and provides constant readings.


Got a linky to a specific one you can recommend? :wink2:

Thanks as always for the helpful responses!

Bump: In the spirit of keeping a journal, I’ll also note that I put sand in the smaller “grow out” or “species” or “quarantine” tank in my stand. I’ve got a filter and heater and shop light running on it, and it will take a couple of weeks to cycle. That sand from the old tank had a TON of dead snails in it (could have been dead before I took it down, who knows?) and rinsing it took a lot of time.

Oh, and got my CO2 back up and running. And doing so added to my manifold flow! But, I figured it would be better flow in the center of the tank if I shortened the run and number of nozzels of the manifold. So, I modified the nozzels on my manifold, @Immortal1. I took it down to 2 nozzels, and right before lights out, I noticed bubbles. Hmmm. May go to 4 nozzels before all is said and done.

Also serviced Filter #1. (Haven’t got spreadsheets like @Greggz yet, so wanted to leave that note here as a date/time stamp!

I guess it was a pretty big day for my tank, now that I think of it! Time for bed!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Today I finally got PLANTS. I got 25 plants and, wow. They don’t BEGIN to fill the tank. More are coming from @burr740. But it’s sure going to take awhile to fill in!










These plants obviously came from a tank with ferts. So, my CO2 is running and I’m hoping to test PAR this weekend (thanks, @Greggz) but what I need to know is this: do these plants need ferts any time soon?

Bump: In other news, my driftwood arrived, and it floats (naturally). So I have it submerged in a bin on my porch.










Aaaaand lights arrived for my lower QT/Grow out tank... yay. They are cute. I have to mount them tomorrow.

And my flow meter arrived today... but. I think I ordered the wrong one. I’m going to PM @Greggz to find out if I’m right.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Looking forward to seeing the new plants! 

Do the plants need ferts right away? Most likely, yes. Esp with an inert substrate. You might be able to cruise for a week or two but some species, probably not. The pantanal thats on the way for example...wont last long without any


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

burr740 said:


> Looking forward to seeing the new plants!
> 
> Do the plants need ferts right away? Most likely, yes. Esp with an inert substrate. You might be able to cruise for a week or two but some species, probably not. The pantanal thats on the way for example...wont last long without any


Thanks! So, I have EI ferts. I have a TON to learn (am reading Greggz plant journal with head spinning... up to page 75) but is there an easy way to start fertilizing? Like, should I follow dosing on the packages for a 120? It’s nothing like “heavily planted” so I was thinking I should dial it way down...

Bump: *FISH*

I’m starting to think about restocking this tank. It’s going to be a rainbow tank, no question. The pondering I’m doing at the moment concerns bottom dwellers. @Greggz loves his clown loaches...my concern is that I don’t have an LFS that will take them once they get big. I have in the tank right now 2 Sterbai Corys that I really enjoy watching, and I was going to beef up their number, but I see Gregg’s point about color down at the bottom. I’ve never kept loaches: do they do the same job as Corys? And, do I want all my snails eaten? Hmmm.

The other fish I need to get asap is some Ottos. I have one. He’s lonely.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Go half EI for a little while until you get more plant mass


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> Thanks! So, I have EI ferts. I have a TON to learn (am reading Greggz plant journal with head spinning... up to page 75) but is there an easy way to start fertilizing? Like, should I follow dosing on the packages for a 120? It’s nothing like “heavily planted” so I was thinking I should dial it way down...
> 
> Bump: *FISH*
> 
> ...


As you get further into the journal, you will see I no longer have Clown Loaches. Lost them in an incident you will get to further in the journal. Decided not to replace them and just stick with Bows. 

They are great additions to a tank, but as they grow they do create a lot of waste. I had them for so many years I decided it was time for a change. 

As to ferts, like Burr said if you have Pantanal on the way, better get to fertilizing. And if you have more stems coming, remember they will start growing pretty quickly. 

Learn to use either the Rotalabutterfly or Zorfox planted tank calculator. There are lots of theories on fert dosing, and no one can tell you the perfect mix for your tank. Much depends on how much light you are providing, which you will know soon. The more light, the more demand for both CO2 and ferts.

I would start somewhere around weekly NO3O4:K 15:5:15 and about 0.4 to 0.5 Fe from micros, and see where things go from there. Should be good for most plants, and get you started.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Learn to use either the Rotalabutterfly or Zorfox planted tank calculator. There are lots of theories on fert dosing, and no one can tell you the perfect mix for your tank. Much depends on how much light you are providing, which you will know soon. The more light, the more demand for both CO2 and ferts.
> 
> I would start somewhere around weekly NO3O4:K 15:5:15 and about 0.4 to 0.5 Fe from micros, and see where things go from there. Should be good for most plants, and get you started.


So, I’ve been wondering this: how do you get those numbers? The PPM ones. I have Plantex products from EI.










There is ONE label on one canister, and it basically says, “If you have a 120, dose these amounts.” I hate to keep bothering you, @Greggz, but I downloaded Zorfox and it just seemed to do the same thing: gave me a tsp. amount for a 120.

Bump:


burr740 said:


> Go half EI for a little while until you get more plant mass


THANKS. That helps a lot.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> So, I’ve been wondering this: how do you get those numbers? The PPM ones. I have Plantex products from EI.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great questions and something I am sure many struggle with at first.

Let's start with Zorfox. Let's say you your 120G has 105G of actual water volume, and you want to raise NO3 to 15 ppm.










So to raise 105G to 15 ppm NO3 requires 9.72 grams or 1 3/4 tsp if using measuring spoons. That would be the entire weekly dosing. Personally I front load all macros right after a water change. If you decide split it up into three doses per week then it's 3.24g, or a little more than 5/8 tsp to add 5 ppm NO3 per dose.

Now look at the GLA instructions.










They are suggesting 1 1/2 tsp three times per week! I like Orlando and the guys down there at GLA, but those instructions would be some very, very rich dosing.

And not to get even deeper into the weeds, but IMO a gram scale is well worth the investment. Here is a link to a kitchen table experiment I did comparing gram weights to measuring spoons.


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1020497-greggz-120g-rainbow-fish-tank-part-deux-aqua-soil-3-15-a-137.html#post11162589

I hope that helps. Getting to know one of the calculators and how to use it is well worth the trouble. It may all seem Greek to you now, but it won't take long and it will all become clear.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

THAT was SUPER helpful, THANKS!

I think I was’t using the “custom” window in Zorfox, for starters. Seeing your example is EVERYTHING to me, so thanks for that detailed reply. 

Good news! I own a very sensitive g scale, because I have goats and do fecal samples looking for worms, monthly. (Maybe you didn’t need to know why I have it??? LOL)

Yes, it seems like Greek, but I love nothing better than a steep learning curve. ;-)

My five new Kimberly plants shed over half their leaves overnight... are they likely to bounce back? They basically look like palm trees right now... left side of the tank.










You can kinda see them in this picture, but I’m really posting to show that today I installed little T5 fixtures over my QT tank, so now it’s cycling. I need some fish for it... thinking of getting a couple of Corys that will live in there all the time to keep the filter primed.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

@Greggz: Did I read you right to say that you only dose all your macros ONCE for the week immediately after a water change?

What about micros?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> @Greggz: Did I read you right to say that you only dose all your macros ONCE for the week immediately after a water change?
> 
> What about micros?


Yes I have been front loading all macros for years now. One dose after water change.

Micros are dosed daily. 

Honestly probably makes little difference, but is just most convenient for me.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

SO: your package, @Greggz, arrived, and I can now measure PAR. YAY!

AND: the pH monitor from Milwaukee arrived... got it all set up.

Did a KH and GH test tonight with OLD API test (new Saliferts on the way) and found them lower than they used to be: Kh = 100ppm (6 drops) and GH = 150ppm (8 drops). So, set our pH at 6.8 and increased the CO2 flow. I sure hope I’m understanding this right... if my test is accurate, and the pH controller is working, I can’t gas my fish, right?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> SO: your package, @Greggz, arrived, and I can now measure PAR. YAY!
> 
> AND: the pH monitor from Milwaukee arrived... I’m just not getting how to connect it to my CO2. I think that the CO2 regulator plugs into the monitor, so it can turn the CO2 solenoid on and off, but then what about light cycles... with this monitor, do I not need to time CO2 injection with my lights? Like, currently, the CO2 kicks on an hour before the lights go on, and off an hour before they go off.
> 
> Is this not needed any more? Please advise! TIA


I don't have the Milwaukee model. But I would assume you put the actual controller on a timer, then the CO2 solenoid plugs into the unit.
@Immortal1 anything else that needs to be known with the Milwaukee??


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Greggz said:


> I don't have the Milwaukee model. But I would assume you put the actual controller on a timer, then the CO2 solenoid plugs into the unit.
> 
> @*Immortal1* anything else that needs to be known with the Milwaukee??



How mine is setup;
The power transformer for the Milwaukee unit is plugged into an outlet that is always on.

Smart Plug timer defines when the large controlled plug (attached to the Milwaukee) gets power. The CO2 solenoid power transformer plugs into the large controlled plug (attached to the Milwaukee).
CO2 probe stays in the aquarium (figured this one would be obvious, but thought I would mention it)

At 10:00am, the Smart Plug powers up the large controlled plug, and thus powers the CO2 solenoid. My lights are at full power about 2 hours later.
At 6:00pm, the Smart Plug powers off the large controlled plug, and thus powers off the CO2 solenoid. My lights begin ramping down around 7:30pm

If the pH level in the aquarium gets too low (lower than your setting), the Milwaukee unit shuts off power "thru" the large controlled plug thereby shutting off power to the CO2 solenoid power transformer.
(bear in mind it takes a bit of time for the CO2 pressure in the line to bleed out so CO2 is still flowing for a short period of time. Also, if you are using a reactor and there is a bit of a CO2 bubble in the top, it will also take time for the bubble to dissolve).

There are a few other gadgets I use on my aquarium to help control CO2, but this will get you started.

Bump:
One gadget - I want to turn on a large air stone as soon as the Milwaukee controller shuts off CO2 because the ph dropped too low. But how...
(not sure the info below will make sense to everyone, but it does work very nicely to turn on a big air pump in an emergency)

Relay


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Wow, Linn!

So... I thought I had figured it out... I can’t just plug the solenoid plug pH controller into the Milwaukee controlled plug, and leave it on all the time? What good is the controller, then??? :::scratching my head:::

I don’t have a smart plug... can a timer fulfill that function?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks! said:


> Wow, Linn!
> 
> So... I thought I had figured it out... I can’t just plug the solenoid plug pH controller into the Milwaukee controlled plug, and leave it on all the time? What good is the controller, then??? :::scratching my head:::
> 
> I don’t have a smart plug... can a timer fulfill that function?


 Yes, a mechanical timer works just fine in place of a smart plug - it's what I used to use before I got the smart plugs. 

Yes, you can plug the CO2 solenoid into the Milwaukee plug (large black box), then plug the Milwaukee plug into your timer.

Like I tried to say - some of my stuff can get a little over the top. Apologies.

Wifes tank - Milwaukee / co2 plug


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Immortal1 said:


> One gadget - I want to turn on a large air stone as soon as the Milwaukee controller shuts off CO2 because the ph dropped too low. But how...
> (not sure the info below will make sense to everyone, but it does work very nicely to turn on a big air pump in an emergency)
> 
> Relay


FYI @Immortal1, the American Pinpoint Marine unit has two controlled outlets, both high and low. So you can plug an air pump into the low side and it will turn on until the CO2 comes on again.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Just did a bunch of tests and I have an ammonia spike going on... what can cause that? No recent changes to the tank since I put in the sand (which I washed pretty well) and no dead fish...

I guess I’ll do a water change... sigh.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

greggz said:


> fyi @*immortal1*, the american pinpoint marine unit has two controlled outlets, both high and low. So you can plug an air pump into the low side and it will turn on until the co2 comes on again.


nice!

Bump:


Tanks! said:


> Just did a bunch of tests and I have an ammonia spike going on... what can cause that? No recent changes to the tank since I put in the sand (which I washed pretty well) and no dead fish...
> 
> I guess I’ll do a water change... sigh.


How big of an ammonia spike?
I ask as I recently had some ammonia contamination on various test equipment (syringe for drawing water, cup for holding water, test tube I thought was clean)
Went nuts one nite trying to figure out how my RO water had 0.25 to 0.5 ammonia in it.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

It was at 1.0! Just did 40% change (my hot water heater won’t allow more). I figure it’s die off in my sand. RATS. The change I just did didn’t change much. Still about the same on ammonia test.

I watched for it the first day I put it in and there wasn’t any ammonia... well, maybe .25–maybe. So, I’ve been watching my fish and my Bosemanis were “dark.” They didn’t color up properly. So, I knew something was up. All other parameters were normal. Checked Ammonia last, but that was it.

I’ll be doing water changes 2X day until it’s gone. Wonder how long that will take??? GLAD I’m home.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

And, Linn, thanks for the pictures and explanation. I’ve put it back on a timer.

BUT, but, but I STILL don’t get what the purpose of the pH controller is if we have to use a timer? (Especially if we’re using a flow meter yet, which I’ve gotten but still need hose barbs for.)

I was reading on another post on this forum (which is where I started to figure it out— the poor gal sounded JUST like me— and the group was saying, “Set it and forget it.” Basically. Shouldn’t it be the the controller won’t kick on in the night when plants aren’t using CO2? Or do you use the timer/smart plug as “belt and suspenders”?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks! said:


> And, Linn, thanks for the pictures and explanation. I’ve put it back on a timer.
> 
> BUT, but, but I STILL don’t get what the purpose of the pH controller is if we have to use a timer? (Especially if we’re using a flow meter yet, which I’ve gotten but still need hose barbs for.)
> 
> I was reading on another post on this forum (which is where I started to figure it out— the poor gal sounded JUST like me— and the group was saying, “Set it and forget it.” Basically. Shouldn’t it be the the controller won’t kick on in the night when plants aren’t using CO2? Or do you use the timer/smart plug as “belt and suspenders”?



The timer dictates when the CO2 is allowed to "run" (turn on?). The ph controller is not required to "run" the co2 system.
The flow meter (and metering valve) dictates how fast the co2 system will "run"
The ph controller adds a safety system that will "stop" to co2 system (during it's run time defined by the timer) if you guess wrong on the metering valve / flow meter setting.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

OK, Linn. I get all that, and thanks. But I still don’t understand why you can’t let a pH controller run the CO2. If it will turn it off when there’s too much by detecting a pH level, does it not also allow it to run when there’s not too much CO2, thereby giving plants what they need and not killing fish? Or does it only turn it off, so it can’t turn back on?

I know that plants don’t use the CO2 at night because they are not photosynthesizing. Is the danger in a tank that a daytime use of CO2 and a nighttime use of CO2 are different, and the pH controller doesn’t know the difference and can’t be set to compensate, but the timer can because it is coordinated with the lights that we artificially set?

Reading THIS thread gave me the idea that I wouldn’t need timers. (She sounds JUST like me yesterday) https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1007866-milwaukee-mc122-ph-controller-setup-help.html%3famp=1


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks! said:


> OK, Linn. I get all that, and thanks. But I still don’t understand why you can’t let a pH controller run the CO2. If it will turn it off when there’s too much by detecting a pH level, does it not also allow it to run when there’s not too much CO2, thereby giving plants what they need and not killing fish? Or does it only turn it off, so it can’t turn back on?
> 
> I know that plants don’t use the CO2 at night because they are not photosynthesizing. Is the danger in a tank that a daytime use of CO2 and a nighttime use of CO2 are different, and the pH controller doesn’t know the difference and can’t be set to compensate, but the timer can because it is coordinated with the lights that we artificially set? - pretty much, yes
> 
> Reading THIS thread gave me the idea that I wouldn’t need timers. (She sounds JUST like me yesterday) https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pl...kee-mc122-ph-controller-setup-help.html?amp=1


 The Milwaukee will turn the CO2 back on once the ph level rises (I believe, 0.1ph above your set point). In a way, the pH controller is running the CO2 - turning it off when the ph gets too low, turning it back on when the ph rises. But, it is only allowed to run the co2 when the mechanical timer says it's ok to run the co2. 

As I understand it, during the day the plants absorb co2 and give off oxygen. At nite, it is reversed sort of - the plants absorb oxygen. Many of us run an air stone all nite to raise the oxygen level in the tank and get it reset for the next cycle.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> OK, Linn. I get all that, and thanks. But I still don’t understand why you can’t let a pH controller run the CO2. If it will turn it off when there’s too much by detecting a pH level, does it not also allow it to run when there’s not too much CO2, thereby giving plants what they need and not killing fish? Or does it only turn it off, so it can’t turn back on?


The CO2 controller does run the CO2.

The basic idea is that are two set points. One high, and one low.

So let's say our set points 6.6 high, and 6.5 low. If pH gets above 6.6, CO2 is turned on. If pH gets below 6.5, CO2 is turned off.

The cycle runs constantly while the controller is powered on, keeping the CO2 in a narrow range.

You could let it run all night. Your pH would stay in that narrow range 24/7.

But since plants are not using CO2 at night, most folks switch off the controller and let the tank naturally degas and allow pH levels to rise overnight.

Most resume power to the unit an hour or two before the lighting period, and the whole process starts over again.

Hope that helps.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

So, last night at 9:30 PM when I went to bed after lights off, and CO2 off, my pH was reading 6.8. The morning I awoke at 6 am and read the meter around 6:30 to be 7.8. Isn’t that a big swing, or is that okay? Will O at night steady that swing?

So, @Greggz, are you saying that it’s economizing to not run CO2 at nights, or it’s not safe? I would think that we don’t want the big swings, so running a little CO2 at night (safely) would be to the good?

(Thanks for bearing with my, guys. The light bulb will come on soon, I’m sure...)


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> So, last night at 9:30 PM when I went to bed after lights off, and CO2 off, my pH was reading 6.8. The morning I awoke at 6 am and read the meter around 6:30 to be 7.8. Isn’t that a big swing, or is that okay? Will O at night steady that swing?
> 
> So, @Greggz, are you saying that it’s economizing to not run CO2 at nights, or it’s not safe? I would think that we don’t want the big swings, so running a little CO2 at night (safely) would be to the good?
> 
> (Thanks for bearing with my, guys. The light bulb will come on soon, I’m sure...)


Your pH is higher in the morning from off gassing, and those numbers are fine.

The vast majority of folks with planted tanks do not run CO2 at night. Would not hurt anything, but does not help anything either. Just no reason to as plants are not using CO2 at night. 

As to pH swings, no reason to worry. Pretty much every planted tanker I know does the same thing. A pH swing from CO2 injection then off gassing does not harm livestock. 

Personally I run heavy aeration for an hour right after the lighting period to off gas quickly. Makes it nice and comfortable for the Bows over night.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Okay... so. Here are my new plants... some of them.










I was happy to see the Colorata was coloring, and thought the Ludwiga Atlantis looked good because it, too, was coloring orange... but now it MIGHT be losing leaves? @burr740, if you see this, can you tell me if they look okay to you? I’ve got some pretty strong lights going... going to measure PAR today, but figured too much, rather than too little. I’ve (probably overdone on the first day) Micros, then yesterday, Macros, 1/2 EI dosage on GLA pkg. Haven’t dosed today. My pH did go up to 7.9 before CO2 kicked back on...? Comments invited!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I would be patient for now. A lot of times new plants will drop leaves or stunt for a minute while they recover from shipping, it also happens sometimes when they have to adjust to new parameters. I dont see anything particularly wrong with those in the pic fwiw. After a few days/week you'll know more about it


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

burr740 said:


> I would be patient for now. A lot of times new plants will drop leaves or stunt for a minute while they recover from shipping, it also happens sometimes when they have to adjust to new parameters. I dont see anything particularly wrong with those in the pic fwiw. After a few days/week you'll know more about it


I’m very happy to be patient. 0 Just want to do all I can to ensure success, and don’t know what I don’t know. THANKS for checking in.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Your pH is higher in the morning from off gassing, and those numbers are fine.
> 
> The vast majority of folks with planted tanks do not run CO2 at night. Would not hurt anything, but does not help anything either. Just no reason to as plants are not using CO2 at night.
> 
> ...


Alrighty. I’ll stop fighting the hypo and bow to the collective wisdom. ;-) I do understand what you’re saying. Thanks.

Bump: In other news, I got up this morning and put in a bunch of Quick Start that I’d just bought “just in case.” Then about a half hour later I took ammonia readings: it was ZERO ammonia. WOOT. So happy to NOT do a water change. Then, at 2:00 I did another test. Looks like less than .25... yellow with barely a shade of green, so I guess all the happy little bacteria are doing their jobs.

Bump: In other news, I got up this morning and put in a bunch of Quick Start that I’d just bought “just in case.” Then about a half hour later I took ammonia readings: it was ZERO ammonia. WOOT. So happy to NOT do a water change. Then, at 2:00 I did another test. Looks like less than .25... yellow with barely a shade of green, so I guess all the happy little bacteria are doing their jobs.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks! said:


> Alrighty. I’ll stop fighting the hypo and bow to the collective wisdom. ;-) I do understand what you’re saying. Thanks.
> 
> Bump: In other news, I got up this morning and put in a bunch of Quick Start that I’d just bought “just in case.” Then about a half hour later I took ammonia readings: it was ZERO ammonia. WOOT. So happy to NOT do a water change. Then, at 2:00 I did another test. Looks like less than .25... yellow with barely a shade of green, so I guess all the happy little bacteria are doing their jobs.
> 
> Bump: In other news, I got up this morning and put in a bunch of Quick Start that I’d just bought “just in case.” Then about a half hour later I took ammonia readings: it was ZERO ammonia. WOOT. So happy to NOT do a water change. Then, at 2:00 I did another test. Looks like less than .25... yellow with barely a shade of green, so I guess all the happy little bacteria are doing their jobs.



Good to hear you got the bacteria started. They will grow - as long as they have food 
Small chuckle if you are up for the read - did a little experiment a few years back. At one point I was adding 70ppm ammonia to a small aquarium and within 24 hours the bacteria consumed it all - 0.00ppm ammonia. 

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1045898-matrix-without-seachem-39.html


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Good to hear you got the bacteria started. They will grow - as long as they have food
> Small chuckle if you are up for the read - did a little experiment a few years back. At one point I was adding 70ppm ammonia to a small aquarium and within 24 hours the bacteria consumed it all - 0.00ppm ammonia.
> 
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1045898-matrix-without-seachem-39.html


Yeah, the odd thing is I have two mature filters (saved from my old system) running. I guess now I’ve seeded all that sand with bacteria and they’ve gone to work. GTK.

I’ve got company coming tonight, but I’ll give it a read for sure, thanks!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

@Immortal1 That was a pretty interesting experiment! GTK for QT tanks for sure.

Hubby Scott helped me to rehang our light fixture last night Using the floating hybrid hanger. Big shout out to AL. It’s beautifully engineered, directions were very clear, and it enables me to lift the fixture easily to work on the tank. Plus, it looks great. Two thumbs up!

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/floating-cantilever-hybrid-light-suspension-kit-black-aquatic-life.html?utm_term=&utm_campaign=Shopping%3EAquatic+Life%3EBrand&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=7373341438&hsa_cam=1948876024&hsa_grp=71864755158&hsa_ad=351379439427&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=aud-332082194793la-586281914380&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=Cj0KCQjwu8r4BRCzARIsAA21i_AV1ibpopMxduFr3Pj2wMo7Wzv2SvIQOJ3KxEN8s3x1xcRPA8hbcucaAj1FEALw_wcB


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Was pretty interesting to see how much various bio media could handle. 

That floating hanger looks pretty nice!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

It’s really nice. And I can lift the fixture with one hand. 

I got plants from Joe today. They are NICE!!!





























AND: my favorite: a LARGE clump of Buce: Hades. Just gorgeous. Thanks @burr740!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Joe has a pretty fantastic assortment of plants and generally speaking, in pristine condition!
Looking good so far Tanks


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Hey, all...

So, I’m trying to figure out my tank with the new plants.

I have not been able to make the PAR meter work for me, so I’m guessing. Here is what I know. The tank is 26” tall, and the lights are about 4 inches off the surface.

I am running a hybrid: 2 T5 HOs fixtures cover the front and back, EACH with 2 90 watt, 60” T5 HOs, so 4 T5’s. Then, and then in the center of the tank (front to back) on the right and left, I have 2 AI 16 Freshwater spotlights (they have quite a bit of coverage, according to PAR readings that were taken in a video I watched online). Below is a picture with just them on to give you an idea.










I have total control over these lights from my iPhone. So, I can dim them, make them very bright, and set a custom light pattern at any point i the day. 

This is an example of the current settings, for instance:










Currently, I use them on very low i the mornings (as with @Greggz viewing lights), and then they get more and more intense as the day goes on. Evenings, they look like the picture for an hour or more before the tank goes totally dark.

By midday, my tank is really very bright, at least to my eyes (but I don’t know PAR).










Obviously, in the dead center of the tank, there is less light. This is intentional because I do love anubias nana and buce on my driftwood there eventually, so I’m wanting a “lower light district.” The high light plants that I’ve bought are planted where they’ll get the most of the light I have.

SO: my question is this. I have been dosing about half of what is called for with EI, and I have been doing water tests to assure myself that parameters are okay: ammonia is zero and NO3 is between 10 and 20. Temp is 77*, and pH swings between 6.8 during CO2 and 7.8 offgassed in the AM. The fish seem happy, but the plants are not thriving. I would say that, if anything, they are losing ground.

What would “typical” (I know every tank is different) photoperiods be for these higher light plants... how many hours under what kind of wattage. Greggz might be closest to what I’ve got... I’m not sure. If you all could just tell me how long you have whatever light arrays you use on in a given day, I’d sure appreciate it.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Gut instinct - may not be enough "food" for the plants for the given mount of light. But, you don't have a lot of plant mass yet so my best guess would be less overall light until you get more plant mass. 
I have ALOT more plants and I am current running 80-90 PAR for 8 hours. 
I will say it takes a bit of time to figure out how much food is needed for the mount of light you are providing.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

@Immortal1: Thanks for the reply. The Rubin is turning green in its lower half... others just seem weak and wasting away. I’ll try upping the ferts. You think start with 6 hours of full light array? (At least the Buce seems happy...)

Also, relating the CO2... have it come on one hour before high lights, and then how long should it be on on the other end? Go off an hour before lights out?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Like @Immortal1 above, I run full lighting for 8 hours. For your tank right now, 5 or 6 hours at full intensity should be fine. You can gradually increase the hours as the tank fills and you have more plant mass.

How long are the lights on total? And how much light are you providing during the ramp up/ramp down period. I ask as my "viewing" lights are very, very low intensity. Just enough to see the Bows and make things out. 

It will also help when you get the PAR readings. If the intensity is high, so is the demand for nutrients. I would not worry too much about color fade at this point. More important is plant health. Once you get things dialed in you can up the PAR and the color will come.

And in general, plants that are shipped and moved to new parameters take time to adjust. Remember they come from a tank that is high light with generous ferts. It takes time for plants to adjust/transition, and they may get weaker before they get stronger. Takes patience, but give them time and they should bounce back.

And then some plants simply won't do well. It happens. Part of the process is learning which plants like the soup you are serving. 

Remember that dialing in a tank takes time, and there will be bumps and bruises along the way. We all experience them.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Well, I just measured PAR with my hung lights as low as they can go over the tank. Now, I need some guidance from my favorite mentors! @Greggz. @burr740. @Immortal1

At SEDIMENT: with both spots on and fixture hanging lights 3” off the surface of the water... water is on average 22” deep, I was BURNING my plants. (Poor things! Thank you Greggz for the machine!) The numbers below are blocks of every six inches or so along the length of the 60” tank, and then back, middle, front of the tank for depth.










The good news is that I can raise my lights—easier to tone them down than hype them up, no? So, what am I shooting for for PAR at sediment, now, Gentlemen? (I’m thinking 100 on average in brightest spots?)


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Thanks, Greggz for the warnings about plants adjusting. I’m aware. 

My goal right now is simply to understand “where I’m at” and then stabilize at a PAR and fert rate that would make sense. THEN I am plenty patient to fine tune and get to know my plants! I know I’ll lose some... that’s totally understandable and expected. I’m not anxious.... just don’t want to lose EVERYTHING because, for instance, I’m burning the heck out of them.

I did a generous fertilization of macros this AM, and have turned off my spotlights entirely for now, and everyone looks MUCH happier. As soon as someone can tell me what PAR I’m shooting for at sediment, I’ll adjust the light heights and settle into a routine. :smile2:


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Woah, thats a lot of light! lol. Yeah 100-120 at the sub would be a good start


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Many thanks, @burr740!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> Woah, thats a lot of light! lol. Yeah 100-120 at the sub would be a good start


"Woah" is right. My goodness that set up is capable of putting out some serious light.

Goes to show that our "eyes" are not a very good measure of PAR.

And you might even start with a little less than 100 PAR. Anytime you get to 100+ PAR you better have everything else dialed in. 

Looks like the meter is coming in handy!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> "Woah" is right. My goodness that set up is capable of putting out some serious light.
> 
> Goes to show that our "eyes" are not a very good measure of PAR.
> 
> ...


Yes, the meter saved my plants and my sanity... Again, many thanks! I would have been banging my head against a wall for a long time trying to grow plants in that blasting light.

The reason I bought the spotlights was twofold. 1) I had too little light in my last tank, and knew that you, Gregg, went to six bulbs (staggered) from four and lowered them in order to get enough light in an identical tank. I don’t know if the 90 watt bulbs are the reason (Hoppy says “probably not” in one of his threads. More watts for more length, not more output is what he said. And 2) I wanted a sunrise/sunset effect and “viewing lights” again (I had duplicated your idea using cheap LED strips, but that wasn’t a great idea for the exposed fixture.) All in all, I felt like the AIs would serve me no matter which way for a long time to come.

Anyways... we used the meter to get PAR around 100 at substrate around the tank, and I’ll run a shorter light time until my plants fill in more. ALL the plants are looking happier since less light and more ferts. It’s amazing how quickly they respond to changes. The Rubin is back to red; the Pantanal is coloring up... as is the Bacopa. 

Look how high I had to raise this fixture (loving the hanger!) in order to get 100 PAR with both T5 fixtures on:


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Yeah, those 200+ readings at the substrate are a little excessive, LOL
Good to hear Gregg was able to share his PAR meter - comes in real handy getting things dialed in. Your PUR numbers are very good as well. My old Satellite Pro lights struggled to get PUR above 50 (they pretty much sucked, IMO).
Sounds like you are on a good path now. That floating light kit seems like an excellent investment


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Today I want to my LFS (PetSmart... only one around for MILES) and got one Otocinclus catfish and six False Julie Coreys. I was just putting the bag in to float when it burst on the rug in front of my tank. I was able to scoop up all the poor fish and just throw them into the two tanks (Oto went right into the main display; six coreys into the QT tank for now). By an hour later they were all playing around and doing fine, so I guess the old “drop and plop” worked out this time. Sheesh!

I am still trying to gather more plants... still working to balance my tank, learning about ferts, and hoping to hook up my flow meter tomorrow. Got all the parts for it; just need to get some advice from @Greggz as to how to plumb it. Otherwise... we’re just plugging along.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Yay! Flow meter installed; lights adjusted again (time periods below). 










Water change day!

Plant observations before water change:

Nymphoides: VERY happy. Putting out new leaves daily, and I could separate out two plants today if I wanted to... and I may!
Rubins

Ludwigia Rubin: doing great. New buds at nodes, plus growing taller.

JUST hanging in there. Better since I raised the lights. I think they might make it.

Kimberly: gone in two days after arrival. Oh, well.

Bacopa colorata: healthy, but less light is allowing them to go green again. They liked the higher light.

Pantanal: still deciding whether or not to flourish. As Burr puts it, “pouting.”

Ludwigia Atlantis: bouncing back. The high lights gave them color but it was too much. They are starting to put out new leaves and get taller. Yay!

Blyxa Japonica: seems to be growing... has turned a bit yellow, but that may be normal in this light level.

Buce Hades: doing fine.

Green crypt: survivor from old tank, growing and putting out leaves.

Old anubias on driftwood: looking better since I trimmed off dead leaves, but I don’t think it will like the light long term. C’mon driftwood: waterlog yourself! (Checked today and it only stays about 90% under. So it’s still in a tub on my front porch. SOAKing.)

NEW LIGHT/CO2 settings: 

CO2: on at 10 AM, off at 5:30 PM. Flow meter set at 30. pH meter set at 6.8

Back T5s on at 11 AM, off at 5:30 (6.5 hours)

Front T5s on at 11:30, off at 5:40 

Spotlights: On moonlight from 9 PM to 6 AM. At 6 AM to 10 AM, increasing slightly very low lights red and blue. On very low all day when full array is on. Higher right after the T5s kick off at 5:40... dimming slowly until 9 PM.

In the week ahea, I’m planning on dosing macros pretty heavily, and micros at half what EI labels say.

Hoping to get more plans from Burr740 mid-week next week.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

So, I just got back tonight from a 4-day trip. My hubby was a faithful caretaker and all the plants look good... however, they are starting to look leggy. Wondering if I should do anything... feed more or less? Prune? Cut off tops and replant?

This is mostly the Pantanal and Rubin I’m thinking of... oh, and I’m going to separate out some new plants from the Nymphoides tomorrow for sure. At least two plants. I really love that plant a lot!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Great update. The two biggest nutrient hogs in there are what's pouting, pantanal and rubin. You might wanna increase ferts overall a little bit, even though you dont have much plant mass yet. (a problem soon to be solved!) And make sure you have plenty of CO2, shoot for a 1 point drop by lights on, 1.2 or so at peak. 

Blyxa japonica, normal for it to turn yellow/bronze colors under high light.

Keep up with the water changes and good cleaning practices. Everything will get better as the system matures.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

THANKS, Burr! Always appreciate your time in inputs. Can’t wait to see the new additions that you’re going to send today!

Finally got around to ordering some new Rainbows last night. :-D

Goyder River Rainbowfish (Melanotaenia trifasciata) (2)
Dority's Rainbowfish (Glossolepis dorityi) (2)
Yellow Rainbowfish (Melantaenia herbertaxelrodi) (2)
Macculloch's Rainbowfish (Melanotaenia maccullochi) (1)

They should come tomorrow. 

FUN times!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

So, here are pictures of my Pantanal. Is this leggy? Should I lop off the tops and replant? They are about 9” tall...











This one seems happier... has three heads... is this a happier plant, or no?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

In the first pic the newer growth looks much happier than the old growth.

I would let it go a bit longer, then top and replant.

The three heads is usually a sign of some type of stress. It will abandon the old head and generate new ones.

I would not worry about it too much, as it happens. Good news is if things are improving those will grow out and you will have more plants.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> In the first pic the newer growth looks much happier than the old growth.
> 
> I would let it go a bit longer, then top and replant.
> 
> ...


Okay, thanks Gregg. That’s interesting because the plants pictured are in different parts of the tank. The single one with three heads is in a darker section with different colored bulbs.

I realized this AM that while I was away hubby only gave macros. He missed the micros entirely. Is there really any reason why I can’t add some micros today, even if I dosed macros this AM?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> Okay, thanks Gregg. That’s interesting because the plants pictured are in different parts of the tank. The single one with three heads is in a darker section with different colored bulbs.
> 
> I realized this AM that while I was away hubby only gave macros. He missed the micros entirely. Is there really any reason why I can’t add some micros today, even if I dosed macros this AM?


Different parts of the tank can produce different results. I've seen the same plant do very well in one spot, and poorly in another. There is an art to finding out where plants do best. Pantanal is a light hungry plant, and more is better. 

As to micros, no issue at all dosing them with macros. My macros are dosed once weekly up front and micros daily.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Today was finally driftwood day! (I know we’re all about the plants here... but, honest, it IS about the plants!)
The Buce has to have some place to be, right? I had a great time putting the Hades Buce in about 5 segments onto the wood. It’s a great piece because it basically stand upright with “legs” that keep it off the tank floor. The fish are loving swimming under and around it.

I moved two of my Blyxa Japonica, which seem very happy where they were, over to be a contrast plant to the anubias and Rubins and driftwood colors. I also propagated two of the Nymphoides... one is hiding behind the driftwood... should make a beautiful background to it... and the other is in the far corner, balancing its parent plant, for now. My Rubins are growing and healthy, but not the vibrant red that they were when they came from Burr. Not sure why.... time and experience will tell.

My fish are definitely loving the plants and driftwood. I think they feel less exposed. Oh, and I put 4 of the Cory cats into the big tank, and stuck the old driftwood down into the QT with the remaining 2 corys. Those corys will stay there to keep my biological filter going so that if I have incidents in the future, the filter will be ready. AND I’m expecting 7 young rainbows to occupy that tank for the next few weeks as well, once they arrive... maybe tomorrow.

Picture of the tank for my own reference (it’s a tank only a mother can love right now!).


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks! said:


> Today was finally driftwood day! (I know we’re all about the plants here... but, honest, it IS about the plants! The Buce has to have some place to be, right? I had a great time putting the Hades Buce in about 5 segments onto the wood. It’s a great piece because it basically stand upright with “legs” that keep it off the tank floor. The fish are loving swimming under and around it.
> 
> I moved two of my Blyxa Japonica, which seem very happy where they were, over to be a contrast plant to the anubias and Rubins and driftwood colors. I also propagated two of the Nymphoides... one is hiding behind the driftwood... should make a beautiful background to it... and the other is in the far corner, balancing its parent plant, for now. My Rubins are growing and healthy, but not the vibrant red that they were when they came from Burr. Not sure why.... time and experience will tell.
> 
> ...



We all start some place. Many may not remember the pic below but it was the first planted tank pic I ever posted.
My guess is, at some point you will go back to the above pic and make a reference as to how far your tank has progressed 

















Funny fact - the middle and far right drift wood pieces are still in the tank today. Granted, the middle one has worn down a lot and the far right one is covered in plants. 

Look forward to see how for your tank progresses


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Thanks for the encouragement, Linn! I actually love my tank... just not something that others will necessarily think much of... which is fine with me.

On a sad note, I think I see ich coming on a few of my older rainbows. They have been through a lot, so it’s not too puzzling. Probably stress. @Immortal1: How can I treat a planted tank? No clue! With these plants, can I raise the temp to 86* for a few days?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks! said:


> Thanks for the encouragement, Linn! I actually love my tank... just not something that others will necessarily think much of... which is fine with me.
> 
> On a sad note, I think I see ich coming on a few of my older rainbows. They have been through a lot, so it’s not too puzzling. Probably stress. @*Immortal1*: How can I treat a planted tank? No clue! With these plants, can I raise the temp to 86* for a few days?


REALLY hate to say this... but, I have no idea on ich. Never had it in my tank (now that I actually said it, I will have it tomorrow).
I would "think" that the normal ich treatment would work equally as well in a planted tank vs any other aquarium.
From what I read, ich has a life cycle and raising the temp shortens that cycle. Can't image a few days at 86 degrees is gonna kill off all the plants - pretty sure they are tougher than that.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> I would "think" that the normal ich treatment would work equally as well in a planted tank vs any other aquarium. From what I read, ich has a life cycle and raising the temp shortens that cycle. Can't image a few days at 86 degrees is gonna kill off all the plants - pretty sure they are tougher than that.


Raising the temp as I type. SIGH!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

@Immortal1 those are great before and after pics above!
@Tanks! you need to treat the ich quickly. I would raise the temp, and also medicate. If you don't get it under control it can wipe out a lot of fish.

If caught early enough, Seachem Paraguard is usually effective. If it doesn't improve in a few days, Kordon Rid Ich Plus is a stronger medication. 

Good luck and hopefully it's a mild case.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> @Tanks! you need to treat the ich quickly. I would raise the temp, and also medicate. If you don't get it under control it can wipe out a lot of fish.
> 
> If caught early enough, Seachem Paraguard is usually effective. If it doesn't improve in a few days, Kordon Rid Ich Plus is a stronger medication.
> 
> Good luck and hopefully it's a mild case.


 @Greggz: Right. I’ll find some, hopefully at PetSmart. Iam assuming that these are OK in a planted tank...?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> @Greggz: Right. I’ll find some, hopefully at PetSmart. Iam assuming that these are OK in a planted tank...?


Yep, they are fine. If caught early enough can clear up pretty quickly.

I didn't have ich for about 15 years, then had an outbreak last year. I let my guard down, and it taught me to have medication on hand just in case.

I only raised my temp to about 82*, just to speed the process. I would not run the tank at 86* or higher for any extended period of time, as the plants will likely suffer. 

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Well, I had to order the Seachem, and I’m not going to use the Kordon because it will kill my snails. Meanwhile, temperatures are rising. 

I’ve read that I do and also do not have to stop injecting CO2 into the tank after raising temps. Concern is a lack of O2. Thoughts, anyone?


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

@Greggz: did you stop or lessen CO2 during ich treatment?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> @Greggz: did you stop or lessen CO2 during ich treatment?


Nope ran CO2 like usual. It has no effect on the medication.

Do be sure to have decent surface agitation to provide for good oxygen levels.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

So, we’re part way through Day 3 of elevated temps: currently running at 84* under the lights. 

The only plants that I see at all distressed are the Lobelia Cardinalis small form (some algae growing on it) and on my Hades Buce... I’ve got some leaves with what looks like black tufts.. is it fungus?


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

@burr740: plants got here in great shape, as always. THANKS for the extras—especially the corkscrew Val. It looks amazing as a contrast. I hope it likes it in my tank, cause I sure want it there! I planted ALL of the buce, and am loving my driftwood.

I find it’s really hard to get good pics of my tank. I think it’s because my array is open and high above the tank. Maybe I’ll contrive a cardboard screen for picture taking?

Anyways: best I can do. Still no real rhyme or reason to where the plants are. I need to see which of them like it here before I attempt a ‘scape.










Close up of the Buce on my driftwood...










As to the ich, it is still there... less on some fish, same on others. I’m glad that the 7 new fish I am awaiting by overnight UPS today will go into the quarantine tank anyways. I might just treat it, too, since the plants that are in it came out of the main tank right before I spotted the ich. My Seachem medication should arrive tomorrow, and the I’m going to begin to take the temps back down.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

NOW you're getting the right amount of plants in there, looks really nice. I figured you'd like the corkscrew  Looking forward to seeing it all fill in.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Got 7 rainbowfish from Imperial Tropicals yesterday. They were overnighted and arrived at 3:45. I was watching for them, but figured UPS would bring _live fish!_ to my door. Sigh. They didn’t. As a result, they sat out in the mailbox for 6 hours! :-(. I got 2 Goyder River (M. Trifasciata), 2 Yellow Rainbow (M. Herbertaxelrodi), 2 Dorityi (G Dorityi), and 1 Maccullochi (M. Maccullochi). They are all looking fine, and in the quarantine tank. 0


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Alrighty... now that I have plant mass, I’m back to noodling ferts. I’m looking at this chart, and looking at my EI ferts (which are getting low and I’ll need new ones in about a month or so anyways) and playing with Zorfox, and wondering... hmmm.










So, my EI ferts have things combined. 










Using Zorfox, if I set, for instance, PO4 at 5 ppm, as you have it in the chart above, @Greggz, then my K is at 2.05 and change, and my P is at 1.6 and change... 

I know from your tank journal, Gregg, that you mix your own doses... is that how you guys get to the numbers above... buy all the ingredients and mix your own?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> Using Zorfox, if I set, for instance, PO4 at 5 ppm, as you have it in the chart above, @Greggz, then my K is at 2.05 and change, and my P is at 1.6 and change...
> 
> I know from your tank journal, Gregg, that you mix your own doses... is that how you guys get to the numbers above... buy all the ingredients and mix your own?


Yep, you can hit any numbers you like with what you have.

Let's say we go with my current weekly dosing which is NO3O4:K 10:5:15.

With my 105G of water, I would do the following:

6.48gm KNO3 = 10 pmm NO3 + 6.3 K

2.85gm KH2PO4 = 5 PO4 + 2.05 K.

So add the 6.3 K plus the 2.05 K and you have 8.35 K. So I would dose another 6.65 K via K2SO4 to bring K dosing to 15.

5.89gm K2SO4 = 6.65 K. 

Now that is weekly. So if dosing 3x per week, 1/3 of the above each time.

Hope that helps.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Yep, you can hit any numbers you like with what you have.
> 
> Let's say we go with my current weekly dosing which is NO3O4:K 10:5:15.
> 
> ...


Super helpful... same idea with micros?

Also... that leaves some SO4 on the table, right? Do we need to follow sulfates?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> Super helpful... same idea with micros?
> 
> Also... that leaves some SO4 on the table, right? Do we need to follow sulfates?


I would not worry about the SO4.

And yes, same idea with micros. 

I dose daily 0.075 Fe from micros, or 0.525 per week. Could split into three or four doses as well. Whatever works best for you.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks,
Not sure if this will be of any help, or just more confusing 
Because each container of ferts can contain multiple chemicals and effect multiple quantities, I came up with the following:
As an example, I am using MgNO3 for my Nitrate now. It does not add any K but, it does add NO3, N, Mg and effects the dGH.
A little more confusing - My 55 gallon RO drum that holds at most 50 gallons of water gets 4.66 grams of K2CO3. This will add 13.93ppm of K to my tank so I have to keep track of that as well.
For reference, my weekly N/P/K would be 18/4/15.6


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

This ich is not going away... I got the Paraguard (which, by the way, is not save for invertebrates) and promptly started lowering the temps and it got worse. SO: I’m continuing to dose AND raising the temps again... but probably only to 83. SO glad that my new fish are in a separate QT tank.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

The "like" button just does not seem appropriate here. :-(


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Tanks! said:


> This ich is not going away... I got the Paraguard (which, by the way, is not save for invertebrates) and promptly started lowering the temps and it got worse. SO: I’m continuing to dose AND raising the temps again... but probably only to 83. SO glad that my new fish are in a separate QT tank.



If you have started paragaurd and you still see spots after a few (4-5) days, it may not be an active infection. I had a few spots on my bows that were not going away and further treatment did not remove the spots. Since the fish were acting as normal, I stopped treatment and just observed for any new spots. They eventually went away, think of them as a scab that just has to fall off on it’s own. Now, if fish are acting off or you see more spots, then either continue treatment or try something else.

I did not lose any snails, have MTS, ramshorn and a Nerite. I did not notice anything different about them through treatment. 

I did not raise temps. What I have read is increased temps make it easier for a bacterial infection to take hold and bacteria multiply much quicker in higher temps. The spots of Ich on the fish or gills create a possible entry point for bacteria. You may have to treat for a longer period of time at lower temps. I believe I treated for 1 week total with a large water change in the middle and at the end.

As for CO2, I would lower it, only to make the environment less stressful for the fish. More so just in case something goes wrong with your CO2 and you end up injecting more than you plan. I had a controller change the set point much lower than where I set it and it nearly gassed my fish. I would also recommend increasing aeration if you don’t have enough already. Bows love extra O2 anyway!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Thanks for all that, @vvDO. I decided to raise the temp already, because they seemed better with it high and the plants didn’t seem to mind. I’m on my 3rd day of Paraguard. I did catch and remove all the snails I could nab before I started the Paraguard. I put them in the QT tank... hopefully NOT spreading ich to that tank... we’ll see.

Tonight, I managed to catch the four fish that had it worst (a miracle!) and treated them with a one-hour dip in Paraguard per the bottle. The two that had it worst are my remaining Bosemoni; the other two are female Kamakas. All four are 4+ years old. One of the Bosemonis, especially, lost color and was getting covered in spots. ANYways, I caught all four and dipped them for an hour in Paraguard. They seemed to have less ich after returning them to the tank. Also they seemed to feel better. We’ll see what the morning lights tell me.

My Denison barbs seem completely free from it, and my two remaining Melanotaenia praecox "Pagai" (which are also 4+ years old...) seem unaffected so far. :::crossing fingers:::

So. The dip seemed to help. I have reduced the CO2 using my flow meter to 20 ppm, and my drop checker says I’m still getting ample CO2 for the plants. They all look healthy and fine. I have increased aeration by lifting the spray bar from my canister filter. I’m planning on a large water change tomorrow... and possibly dipping those fish again if they look better but not happy, or worse.

Does anyone here use StressGuard WITH the Paraguard? I didn’t know if it might help or hurt (chemicals interacting... etc.?)

SIGH. This really IS a pain. I’m wondering if the ich came in on frozen brine shrimps I’ve been feeling lately as treats?

Bump:


Immortal1 said:


> The "like" button just does not seem appropriate here. :-(


Decidedly not. :crying:


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

As I wrote the above last night, I only then realized that I might have cross-infected my QT tank with those snails. Though there are no signs of ich, I’m going to treat the QT tank as well for the next week. 

Question: Why don’t people do this as a matter of course? Seems like this is why we QT, so why not proactively treat?


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

JUST did a 50% water change... and re-dosed the Paraguard. The lights aren’t on much, but it LOOKS like the 4 fish Ii dipped last night are almost all healed! THAT is awesome. I really thought I’d lose one of the two Boesemanies. He had turned very pale, wasn’t eating, hiding, and covered in ich. But this AM, he’s colored up, hanging out in the strong current, and eating. Amazing!

When the lights come on, I’ll see if he (and the other three) are truly spotless. If not, I’ll try to dip them again today, I think.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

Tanks! said:


> JUST did a 50% water change... and re-dosed the Paraguard. The lights aren’t on much, but it LOOKS like the 4 fish Ii dipped last night are almost all healed! THAT is awesome. I really thought I’d lose one of the two Boesemanies. He had turned very pale, wasn’t eating, hiding, and covered in ich. But this AM, he’s colored up, hanging out in the strong current, and eating. Amazing!


This is TERRIFIC! I'm so glad they are on the mend!

I have read about proactively dosing QT tanks when bringing home new fish. It seems like a great idea, but I haven't done it.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Update: when the lights came on, the 4 were indeed better, but nothing like 100%. I tried to catch them for another dip, but they were feeling enough better that they avoided the net! Dosed the tank and went on with life.

We’ll see how they are in the AM.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

@burr740. OKay... it is time to trim some plants. (This is a good thing; they are thriving!) 

Pantanai is near the surface level of the tank. Seems leggy to me... cut how much and replant, and then what? Throw away the stump? I want more shoots of this, in general, so keep the stumps?

Rubin will be there in a day or two. Again: plant the tops and do what with the stumps?

Nymphoides: at surface today and I’ve already planted two new offshoots... so, I guess I’ll just discard tall ones? SAD because I love this plant so much!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Trim time! Pantanal and rubin, replant the tops and leave 4"-5" stumps in place, the stumps will sprout new ones. Can keep the Nymphoides in check by pinching off the biggest leaf or two as needed.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Thanks, @burr740. One more question: in looking at my buce, I see some leaves with some green algae growing on them. I read that buce was okay in high light... and I have it in the darkest section of my tank, but that’s not truly dim. Any thoughts? How much light were they under in your tanks?

In other news: big sigh. The fish in QT also came down with ich last night. I did a big water change this AM, dosed their tank, and gave them all a 1-hour dip in Paraguard. Hoping they’ll be better tomorrow. The fish in the big tank continue to look better—all but the one hat had it worst. He’s still pale, but stays right in the middle of the strongest flow. I’m not raising temps in the QT. Temps in the big tank are 82.5* or so. AND: I lost an Oto cat today. :-(


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

The battle against ich continues. Temps are around 83*-84* in both main and QT tanks. Some fish seem completely over it, others are still battling. I’m running out of Paraguard, but more is on the way...


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

SO, the ich battle is over. Lost a total of 10 fish (4 from main display and 6/7 of new fish). Bummer.

Now I’ve got problems with brown algae. It’s tinging the leaves of many of my green plants: Nymphoides especially... So, I’ve got my temperatures back down around 76.4 to 77 (end of lights on) and I’ve been going a bit heavy on the ferts... figured the plants had been through a lot. Photo period is 11 AM to 5 PM.
@burr740 or @Greggz: What can I do to diminish brown algae?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Could be you had some stress on the bio filter with the temps and med dosing. Or plants just got stressed by it all. Really hard to say for sure.

I would not worry too much about it, just keep up with water changes and creating clean conditions. My guess (only a guess!) is that it starts to diminish pretty quickly.

In the meantime, I would wipe off what you can. Algae on leaves can interfere with uptake of light, causing leaves to become weak. If any leaves are covered badly and deteriorating/melting, remove them.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Could be you had some stress on the bio filter with the temps and med dosing. Or plants just got stressed by it all. Really hard to say for sure.
> 
> I would not worry too much about it, just keep up with water changes and creating clean conditions. My guess (only a guess!) is that it starts to diminish pretty quickly.
> 
> In the meantime, I would wipe off what you can. Algae on leaves can interfere with uptake of light, causing leaves to become weak. If any leaves are covered badly and deteriorating/melting, remove them.


Thx, as always, @Greggz!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah just a phase. It usually has to run its course for 2-3 weeks, then goes away. Probably killed some bio filter during all that, or overloaded it if there were dead fish in there for any length of time


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@Tanks! - happy to hear you beat the ich  . Sorry to hear what the cost was :-(
I believe Gregg & Joe have the algae issue pretty well covered. Hopefully the "bumps" are behind you now.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Thanks, Guys. Gotta say, it’s nicer looking at healthy, happy fish for a change!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Do plants that are failing “let go” and float to the top? If not, I have something digging up just a few types of plants in my tank. For fish, except for False Juli Cats that I added about six weeks ago, I have all the same ones I’ve had for years. I also have some snails that are descendants of ones I’ve had for years, unless some of the plants I purchased brought in new ones.

What do you think?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks! said:


> Do plants that are failing “let go” and float to the top? If not, I have something digging up just a few types of plants in my tank. For fish, except for False Juli Cats that I added about six weeks ago, I have all the same ones I’ve had for years. I also have some snails that are descendants of ones I’ve had for years, unless some of the plants I purchased brought in new ones.
> 
> What do you think?


Good question. I have, on several occasions, experienced what you described (plant floating to the surface). In most of my cases, it seemed that the bottom part of the stem along with the root system just rotted off. But, the very top looked good. In most cases, I cut off the ratty bottom and re-planted the top - usually with good success.


Why this happens? don't know. Substrate in that exact spot having too much of something? Kinda doubt it as I usually put the top back into the same spot.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Now I have green water. SIGH. How best to get rid of it, guys? @Greggz? @Immortal1?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> Now I have green water. SIGH. How best to get rid of it, guys? @Greggz? @Immortal1?


Not a surprise.

Makes sense with the other things going on. Like the other symptoms, likely caused by a disturbance to the bio field.

Best and quickest relief is UV light. 

Other than that, IME multiple water changes and time.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Not a surprise.
> 
> Makes sense with the other things going on. Like the other symptoms, likely caused by a disturbance to the bio field.
> 
> ...


Got a recommendation for a UV light? I was looking at inline models—I have my Eheim 4+ canister filter (just cleaning water) and my second one (Eheim 4+) that runs the CO2 as a diffuser, and has bio filter mass. If I put the UV on the main filter, will it slow flow? I was thinking that since I’m planning to add quite a few fish in the not-to-distant future (letting my QT tank go a month fishless, and then will need to cycle again) the UV would help with future ich as well.

I’ve been pondering a possible third filter for increased surface turbulation... smaller... could put it on that, I suppose. Thoughts?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> Got a recommendation for a UV light? I was looking at inline models—I have my Eheim 4+ canister filter (just cleaning water) and my second one (Eheim 4+) that runs the CO2 as a diffuser, and has bio filter mass. If I put the UV on the main filter, will it slow flow? I was thinking that since I’m planning to add quite a few fish in the not-to-distant future (letting my QT tank go a month fishless, and then will need to cycle again) the UV would help with future ich as well.
> 
> I’ve been pondering a possible third filter for increased surface turbulation... smaller... could put it on that, I suppose. Thoughts?


I have a cheap sunsun UV light with a pump. Does the job, and good to have on hand when you need it. 

Get one. It will save you some misery. Green water algae can be a bugger to beat without it. 

Kind of like BGA. You can fight it lots of ways, but a chemical solution will solve it quick.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Tanks! said:


> Got a recommendation for a UV light? I was looking at inline models—I have my Eheim 4+ canister filter (just cleaning water) and my second one (Eheim 4+) that runs the CO2 as a diffuser, and has bio filter mass. If I put the UV on the main filter, will it slow flow? I was thinking that since I’m planning to add quite a few fish in the not-to-distant future (letting my QT tank go a month fishless, and then will need to cycle again) the UV would help with future ich as well.
> 
> I’ve been pondering a possible third filter for increased surface turbulation... smaller... could put it on that, I suppose. Thoughts?


Inline UV would slow the filter flow some. I have not used an inline UV so I don't have a recommendation but I suspect there amy many good brands out there. Agreed, it would help with the ich issue.
Just thinking about numbers for a minute - I have an Eheim 4+ model 350 on my wifes 40g cube. Flow in the tank is decent but not huge. Would I use this filter on a 60g cube with a lot of fish - no.
If I had 2 Eheim 4+ filters on a 120g tank and a lot of fish I would also be a bit concerned. If you had room for a 3rd Eheim 4+ and used that to also power the UV then I would think you would have enough flow for "quite a few fish". 



My biggest gripe with the Eheim 4+ is the top tray. When I was using one of these filters on my 75g tank I had to remove a clean the top course filter every week as it got over whelmed. As a bit of an experiment (you know I like doing experiments) I removed the top course filter pad and replaced it with Eheim ceramic MECH. Very cleanable material and less prone to getting clogged up. The bottom tray of the filter now has 2 course filter pads which actually have a larger surface area than the original small one that was at the top. Middle tray is BioMech, top tray has biomedia and a filter floss pad. 

Thats my Saturday AM thoughts


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

I am also wondering about changing out my filters... like, if the biosphere is disturbed, is it the ich meds hiding in the filter, or dead bacteria in there that needs flushed?
@Greggz: what are IME water changes?


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Inline UV would slow the filter flow some. I have not used an inline UV so I don't have a recommendation but I suspect there amy many good brands out there. Agreed, it would help with the ich issue.
> Just thinking about numbers for a minute - I have an Eheim 4+ model 350 on my wifes 40g cube. Flow in the tank is decent but not huge. Would I use this filter on a 60g cube with a lot of fish - no.
> If I had 2 Eheim 4+ filters on a 120g tank and a lot of fish I would also be a bit concerned. If you had room for a 3rd Eheim 4+ and used that to also power the UV then I would think you would have enough flow for "quite a few fish".
> 
> ...


Hey, Linn!

Thanks for checking in. I agree about the Eheim, and what I did was to buy a bucked of SeaChem Matrix, and lose all the plastic mech. I filled all the top trays with Matrix and Mech and then put a coarse filter at the bottom. I also bought Eheim pre-filters for both intakes, and they definitely are catching a lot of crud. They are easy to clean.

I don’t think I have room for a third +4. Currently, the second one is plumbed through the Cerges, which necessarily dumbs down the flow. I can’t find online yet what the flow wants to be through a 15 watt UV sterilizer, but generally speaking, slower is more better :wink2: so I’m thinking of plumbing a new, smaller canister through the Cerges and re-plumbing the 4+ through the UV sterilizer. Got recommendations for a decent flow canister that’s got a smaller footprint than the 4+? (And don’t say Eheim Classic, because I had two 2217s that failed due to their bogus clip system! :frown2:.)


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I think the little Fluval's have a pretty small foot print (Fluval 207 measures 7.5 x 7 x 16.5”). Hydor filters also seem to have a pretty small foot print but I know nothing about them.
Looking at the various pics on this site, the Fluval seems to have the smallest foot print.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> I have a cheap sunsun UV light with a pump. Does the job, and good to have on hand when you need it.
> 
> Get one. It will save you some misery. Green water algae can be a bugger to beat without it.
> 
> Kind of like BGA. You can fight it lots of ways, but a chemical solution will solve it quick.


Are you talking about a submersible that you put into the tank when you need it? I found a 13 w one for $38 + tax on eBay and just ordered it. Thanks for the direction, as always.

Bump:


Immortal1 said:


> I think the little Fluval's have a pretty small foot print (Fluval 207 measures 7.5 x 7 x 16.5”). Hydor filters also seem to have a pretty small foot print but I know nothing about them.
> Looking at the various pics on this site, the Fluval seems to have the smallest foot print.


I will keep that in mind. I’m using @Greggz solution (I think) and bought a submersible that I can use in either tank just now... BUT. I’m still thinking about adding flow to my big tank, so will check out these canisters pronto. Thanks again, Linn!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> I am also wondering about changing out my filters... like, if the biosphere is disturbed, is it the ich meds hiding in the filter, or dead bacteria in there that needs flushed?
> 
> @Greggz: what are IME water changes?


Frequent filter cleaning is a good practice in general. It's not just what's built up on the media, but the other dissolved organics and general gunk that is in there. Remember, it's in the water column. Cleaner is always better.

My guess (only a guess) is the combination of heat and meds may have hurt your bio field. It takes time for it to build back up. Could very well be the cause of the green water. I had the same thing happen shortly after I changed my substrate. Popped in the UV and it cleared right up.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

Tanks! said:


> @Greggz: what are IME water changes?


 @Tanks!, "IME" stands for "In My Experience".

Sounds like you have a good solution on its way from eBay. Good luck!


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Frequent filter cleaning is a good practice in general. It's not just what's built up on the media, but the other dissolved organics and general gunk that is in there. Remember, it's in the water column. Cleaner is always better.


This confuses me, because I set out to clean each of my two Eheim Pro4+ on a two week rotation, so, once a month, but they do not seem dirty... and I have read that one should not disturb the bio field unless necessary. Can you clarify for me when you get time, please, @Greggz? :nerd:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> This confuses me, because I set out to clean each of my two Eheim Pro4+ on a two week rotation, so, once a month, but they do not seem dirty... and I have read that one should not disturb the bio field unless necessary. Can you clarify for me when you get time, please, @Greggz? :nerd:


Once a month is pretty good. Mine is about the same sometimes 3 weeks sometimes a month. Some folks go a LONG time between cleanings, and that is not good for a planted tank.

And having two filters is a good thing, as you don't disturb the bio field of one when you clean the other. 

Also keep in mind the bio field is a lot more than what is going on in the filter. It's also on surfaces/substrate all over the tank. 

I would just keep doing what you are doing.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Greggz said:


> Once a month is pretty good. Mine is about the same sometimes 3 weeks sometimes a month. Some folks go a LONG time between cleanings, and that is not good for a planted tank.
> 
> And having two filters is a good thing, as you don't disturb the bio field of one when you clean the other.
> 
> ...



I would almost guess there is more bio filtration IN my tank than in my filter. I believe @Deanna removed all bio media from her filters a long time ago


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> I would almost guess there is more bio filtration IN my tank than in my filter. I believe @Deanna removed all bio media from her filters a long time ago


Yes, except for a couple-month test, I (a 'him' not a 'her' - wish I could add a hyphen in there) removed my bio-media about 3 years ago. My canister filter is mechanical filtration only and primarily serves to move water through my UVS and Griggs reactor and then create circulation within the tank. Surface agitation is with a cheap self-powered skimmer only.

I now remove the cheap polyester from the filter once a month, by which time it is probably in the beginning stages of developing BB.


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## novato (Aug 22, 2019)

Could those of you who are more experienced comment on the claims of only cleaning Poret sponges every few years, and the desire for "mulm" vs cleaning our canisters every 2/3 mo.
This article is representative of how long ppl claim to go between cleanings.
Is this not relevant bcs our tanks are plant focused?

https://fish2water.com/filtration-design.php


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

So... just so I can feel better when this is over... here’s the yuck before I did a 50% water change and filter cleaning today.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

It got worse than the picture above before the UV arrived four days later. I couldn’t see more than halfway into the tank; couldn’t really see the fish hardly at all unless they were right up front. YUCK!

This little 13 watt UV sterilizer is great. It arrived from the eBay seller a day early (on Thursday). 24 hours later, the water was noticeably clearer. Today (Saturday) it is again clearer, but not “all clear.” Monday is my normal weekly maintenance day, but I did do a lot of plant work. I wanted to get out the leaves of plants that were covered in green algae, or at least wipe them off.

So, here’s a picture from Saturday: about 30 hours of UV work. 










Given that I’m hoping to add quite a few fish in the near future, I’m planning on leaving the UV running 24/7 for the foreseeable future.

Tonight, with main lights out, we are ALMOST clear:


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

I don’t like the looks of my daytime light setup the way it is. I am considering using JUST my AI Prime spotlights for awhile, since the PAR was good and high with them, and not my T-5s, or switching out my T-5 bulbs for different colors. I currently have a piece of window screen shielding my buce plants on my driftwood from the T-5s, since the driftwood lifts them pretty high and the T-5s are strong, and they are doing great. Bouncing back from all this recent nonsense and putting out flower buds. 

But, I’m concerned about my red plants if I make a lighting change.

What do y’all use to make reds pop in your T-5 setups? I believe I read somewhere in @burr740’s posts that he can’t get red plants to “pop” using LEDs?

I need to remember what I’m running for T-5s, as far as bulbs go. With 60” length, I had a limited choice. I’ll post what I’ve got tomorrow.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

Tank's looking good, @Tanks! Looks like the UV is doing the trick.

I can't speak for the T5'ers around here, but I know they will want to know exactly what bulbs you are running. If you don't have any red or purple bulbs, they're going to send you shopping for those.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Lookin great


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Thx. My water is crystal clear. SO GOOD!

Now, I’m planning on buying some fish and thinking I’ll keep this UV sterilizer on for a good long time to come. (WONDERING: Why don’t people run these ALL. THE. TIME.?

As for lights: my bulbs back of tank to front are:

Giesmann 80 w Super Flora (“high-performance T5 tube developed for optimum plant growth and to accentuate the blue & red colors of your fish“)
Giesmann 80 w Powerchrome Tropic (“full spectrum 6500k HO T5 lamp with enhanced photosynthetic peaks which recreates a natural sunlight effect”)
Geismann 80 w Powerchrome Super Purple (“ the ultimate white/violet spectrum T5 lamp to accentuate coral and fish colors as well as providing proper light intensity for coral growth“) Recommended for reef tanks, but I’ve read about others using purple, so I have it.
Geismann 80 w Powerchrome Tropic (See above.)

I wanted to get another Super Flora when I bought these, but they were not available during the height of COVID. Now they are. I could replace the Tropic lights with Super Flora... what do others think?

Bump: And thinking about new rainbowfish... I’m looking at Aquabid and thinking that the offerings are more for breeders... 3 pair; batches of 6 juvies with no sexing, etc. I’m thinking of going with Imperial Tropicals for some Dority, Herbies, and McCulluch’s, and Goyder River males. Anyone know anything about Imperial Tropicals or have any better suggestions?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> Thx. My water is crystal clear. SO GOOD!
> 
> Now, I’m planning on buying some fish and thinking I’ll keep this UV sterilizer on for a good long time to come. (WONDERING: Why don’t people run these ALL. THE. TIME.?
> 
> ...


With all 5' bulbs, you are limited with bulb selection. Most of the heavily colored ones are only available in 4' bulbs.

With the Super Purple, I would add more Super Flora and less Tropic. The tropic is more of a "daylight" bulb and too much of it can create a yellow hue to the tank. But as always, it's what looks good to YOUR eye that is important.

Imperial Tropicals has been working with some well known breeders and in general has good quality stock. Like you said, breeders typically sell very small bows in larger quantities of a single species. With IT you can get a nice mix of Bows, and they will be a bit larger than those you get from a breeder. If you are looking to jump start your Bow population, IT is a good way to go.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Greggz said:


> With all 5' bulbs, you are limited with bulb selection. Most of the heavily colored ones are only available in 4' bulbs.
> 
> With the Super Purple, I would add more Super Flora and less Tropic. The tropic is more of a "daylight" bulb and too much of it can create a yellow hue to the tank. But as always, it's what looks good to YOUR eye that is important.
> 
> Imperial Tropicals has been working with some well known breeders and in general has good quality stock. Like you said, breeders typically sell very small bows in larger quantities of a single species. With IT you can get a nice mix of Bows, and they will be a bit larger than those you get from a breeder. If you are looking to jump start your Bow population, IT is a good way to go.


Yep; that confirms what I was thinking, Gregg. I’m going to play with my spotlights and see if I can tone down the daylights, since shipping is so high for 60” bulbs. :frown2: I can add reds/blues in easily, but whether it will be too much light if I do is a question!

I ordered from IT! I ordered two Goyer River, two McCulloch’s, and one Herbie (since I already have one). I’ve gotten fish from IT before and been very pleased. I ordered these breeds last time (on the eve of my ich outbreak) and lost all but one Herbie. Heartbreaking! I’m hoping that the UV sterilizer and general clean tank will yield a happier outcome this time! The Herbie that survived is very active and healthy. Here’s hoping!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Guessing (hoping) you will have much better luck this time around with the bows. Clean water and a little UV will go a long way towards providing the best possible growing conditions 
As for the T5 bulbs - that is Gregg's world. Too bad you weren't a bit closer - I would convert your T5 fixture to a stagger arrangement using 4' bulbs.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Immortal1 said:


> Guessing (hoping) you will have much better luck this time around with the bows. Clean water and a little UV will go a long way towards providing the best possible growing conditions
> As for the T5 bulbs - that is Gregg's world. Too bad you weren't a bit closer - I would convert your T5 fixture to a stagger arrangement using 4' bulbs.


Thanks, Linn! 

I have considered staggering, but I like my T5/LED combo. Just think I need to find the sweet spot. I am going to order more Floras when I get more money... I agree with Gregg about too much Tropica lights. Wondering if Actinics would be any help?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tanks! said:


> Thanks, Linn!
> 
> I have considered staggering, but I like my T5/LED combo. Just think I need to find the sweet spot. I am going to order more Floras when I get more money... I agree with Gregg about too much Tropica lights. Wondering if Actinics would be any help?


Only way to know is to try it.

It's some work, but the best way to evaluate colors is to take pics with different combinations. Many times there are subtle differences. It really helps to see what those differences are by comparing side by side pics.


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

So, I posted elsewhere on the Fish thread that I might just have to throw in the fish-keeping towel for good, here. Got what looks like TB (apparently have had it since I got a bunch of free fish from a reputable breeder...).

Sucks.

We’ll see if anyone offers a different view than this one: https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/My...GUbkxm9WQvlOXKfEtWhtpacUfGstJqbFn2YpYmxknbnCw


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## Tanks! (Dec 16, 2013)

Okay. I’ve recovered my balance from my sick fish episode. Have watched remaining fish for a month, and no issues. I’m going to assume that I did not, in fact, have mycobacteriosis and go on from there. Bought myself a pair of upper-arm length gloves to work in the tank, and on we go.

The tank was doing well after installing the in-tank clarifier, but these days, I have green algae growing on slow-growing leaves of plants, like my buce. Question for my gurus: in general terms, which imbalance causes excessive green algae? Like, too much light, not enough CO2? Too much ferts, not enough light? Just a general way to head would be really helpful. @Greggz, @Immortal1

Bump: I am also working at installing a Vecton 2 25 watt Level 2 sterilizer on the main tank, and have a Level 2 sterilizer on my QT tank. I don’t expect it to defeat any and all diseases, but it’s at least a help, I hope. My issue right now is to find a plumbing solution for the Vecton. I posted in “Equipment” but so far no answers. I’m going to cross post here, in case someone misses it over there. 

________________

I have a 120 planted rainbow tank that has gone through some bouts with first ich and then green water, so I pulled the trigger on a Vecton 2 600 and now I’m scratching my head on how to plumb it.

I was going to plumb in into the outlet of one of my two Eheim 4 Pro 600 canister filters. Currently, one is plumbed into my Cerges reactor (for CO2) and thence into a manifold that delivers the CO2 to the tank. It’s definitely the slower output of the two, because the Cerges tamps down the flow. Therefore, I had planned to plumb the Vecton thru the second canister filter output, which simply goes to a spraybar. However, we measured the ACTUAL flow coming out of the spraybar, using a stopwatch and bucket, and it’s only at 144 gph. The filter is stated to have a max flow of 330 Gph.

(Full disclosure: One question that I’ve had and not thoroughly explored is whether a cause of the lowered flow is the result of the Eheim pre-filters that I have on both inlets to my canister filters. They do an excellent job of pre-filtering, and I like them because I disturb the bio field less in that I don’t need to service my canisters as often. I really should try taking them off and seeing what the spraybar flow is, but assume for the sake of this post that it’s still not going to get to 275... just the spraybar itself has to be retarding flow.)

For the size of my tank, and my goals for my UVS (Level 2 sterilization), I am trying to turn this tank over thru the Vecton at a rate of 2.5-3 times per hour. Since there are about 110 gallons in my tank (it’s never full to the top), I’m therefore working for a gph of 275-330 gph. (I am also aware the the circulation of flow within the tank will play into effective sterilization, but I can handle that aspect well, I think.)

My question is where to go from here. 

* I’m not eager to buy another canister filter... I’m not thinking there are many with significantly more output, and I only need boosted flow, not filtration. Unless it would be the NuClear filter, with a significant pump. Seems like these filters can handle high throughput. ANYONE HAVE ONE and can speak to it?

*. I don’t think that plumbing a pump inline from the canister to the Vecton and back to the spraybar will work, and from all I read on this forum, it will be noisy.

* I would not mind putting a simple submersible pump in my tank (hiding it behind plants) but it would need to have some kind of pre-filtration — like a sponge filter — or else the UVS glass gets dirty and Level 2 sterilization won’t be happening.

* I could get an exterior pump, but am wondering how I would then prefilter...

Help? What options/methods am I missing? TIA.


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