# Bolivian ram for my 20 long



## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

I have a 20 gallon long moderate-heavily planted tank that houses 4 nerite snails, 1 mystery snail, 2 amanos, 6 pangio semicincta (kuhlis), and 10 pangio cuneovirgata (dwarf kuhli). I would consider 10 cuneovirgata to have the bioload of 5 regular kuhli, maybe less. 

Long story short, the most activity I see throughout the day is the shrimp moving around. I am dying to get some active fish in there and I am hooked on Bolivian Rams and would love to get one (any tips on them would be great, especially types of foods). 

I was wondering if there are any other active compatible fish for the mid/upper regions of the tank (keep in mind it's only 12" high). Preferably not a fish that requires a very large school as most tiny fish are pretty expensive at my LPS.


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## iMacg3 (May 16, 2018)

Hi,

Bolivian Rams (Mikrogeophagus altispinosus) need a 30 gallon aquarium at minimum. They will not be able to thrive long-term in a 20 gallon long.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I will offer an alternative opinion. In my experience a 20 long would be fine for a pair or two. Good structure for territory and they will be happy happy 


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## MNBassin (May 29, 2018)

A 20 with plenty of cover would be better than a larger tank that's fairly bare, so I think a pair would be okay. It's sorta a judgement call based on the individual and their experiences. If you wanted to be less on the fence and love smaller cichlids, check out some apistos! Love those guys


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> I will offer an alternative opinion. In my experience a 20 long would be fine for a pair or two. Good structure for territory and they will be happy happy






MNBassin said:


> A 20 with plenty of cover would be better than a larger tank that's fairly bare, so I think a pair would be okay. It's sorta a judgement call based on the individual and their experiences. If you wanted to be less on the fence and love smaller cichlids, check out some apistos! Love those guys



Wouldn't a pair get aggressive while breeding? I was also looking at apistos but I was leaning towards a more longer-lived dwarf cichlid, hence why I was considering the Bolivian. I think my LPS only stocks male apistos as well.


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## n25philly (Dec 12, 2013)

Bolivian rams are typically less aggressive than most dwarf cichlids. When I has a pair they bread in a community tank and only bothered anyone that actively tried to eat eggs/babies. A 20 long is plenty for them. I don't know if they are going to give you want you want though as dwarf cichlids tend to stay at the bottom of the tank. Also if they do breed it could be an issue with the kuhli's due to them sharing common area. Maybe something like honey gourami? They stay small, will go all over the tank but will mostly stay in the mid to high sections of the tank.


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

n25philly said:


> Bolivian rams are typically less aggressive than most dwarf cichlids. When I has a pair they bread in a community tank and only bothered anyone that actively tried to eat eggs/babies. A 20 long is plenty for them. I don't know if they are going to give you want you want though as dwarf cichlids tend to stay at the bottom of the tank. Also if they do breed it could be an issue with the kuhli's due to them sharing common area. Maybe something like honey gourami? They stay small, will go all over the tank but will mostly stay in the mid to high sections of the tank.




I just want a fish that I can see moving throughout the day, unlike the kuhlis, so I don't mind that they stay near the bottom. Sounds terrible but it's like staring at a tank with only plants. The rams have really caught my eye.


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## MNBassin (May 29, 2018)

I'd say go for the rams. As for schooling fish, you can't go wrong with some neons, cardinals, or rummy nose tetras.


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

MNBassin said:


> I'd say go for the rams. As for schooling fish, you can't go wrong with some neons, cardinals, or rummy nose tetras.




I just asked the guy that runs the fish department at my LPS if he can sex them for me. He said he could definitely sex German blue rams but he would try his best with the Bolivians. So, not sure if I should get 1 or a pair or if I should get the German/Bolivian. 

I had originally been interested in the Bolivians due to their longer lifespan and possibly being a little hardier than Germans.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

They are much hardier than the blue rams. There are many methods to sexing Bolivians. Size is one. Deeper color is another. I use the anal fin. The male will be more pointed and extend further into the tail. Works for me. Others use the head shape. I will see if I can find a picture or two to illustrate 


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The male is in the left in this picture










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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> The male is in the left in this picture



Do you mean the male is the one with just the end of the tail showing on the left, not the one in the middle of the pic? The one in the middle looks like it has a pointed anal fin but what do I know. Lol


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Sorry, I goofed up. Yes, the male is on the right. The tail is a female I believe 


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> Sorry, I goofed up. Yes, the male is on the right. The tail is a female I believe
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Should I try to get a female/male or 2 males?


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I will share a few experiences and opinions. 
First, in my opinion if you have two it should be male female. These fish have a strong pair bond once established. I have seen a healthy male stand guard over his sick female, and visa versa. When they spawn they work together. It is pretty cool to watch

Second, they will establish a hierarchy. If you have all males you won’t see their best color and the battles are sharper. Male female will fight as well. She will test him to ensure he is strong enough

Third, a male, female does not ensure a pair bond but you will see the flirting






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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> I will share a few experiences and opinions.
> First, in my opinion if you have two it should be male female. These fish have a strong pair bond once established. I have seen a healthy male stand guard over his sick female, and visa versa. When they spawn they work together. It is pretty cool to watch
> 
> Second, they will establish a hierarchy. If you have all males you won’t see their best color and the battles are sharper. Male female will fight as well. She will test him to ensure he is strong enough
> ...




Thanks for taking the time to reply. I just want to get this right the first time. Hopefully I'll get a male/female, I'd hate to get 2 males and have them fight. 

I was only going to get 1 if it was hard to sex them at the store but I read 1 ram would be stressed out.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Ravynn said:


> Thanks for taking the time to reply. I just want to get this right the first time. Hopefully I'll get a male/female, I'd hate to get 2 males and have them fight.
> 
> I was only going to get 1 if it was hard to sex them at the store but I read 1 ram would be stressed out.




They are a gregarious fish. I would not do one for any length of time. 

They will fight a little, male-female, male-male, female-female. I call it a pillow fight. In the end they are Cichlids and will establish a hierarchy. 

I feed mine mostly a pellet from kens fish. Earthworm sticks and black worms are favorites. In the beginning I feed the hikari vege rounds. They like those too. Enjoy this fish. Subtle beauty!


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

mbkemp said:


> They are a gregarious fish. I would not do one for any length of time.
> 
> They will fight a little, male-female, male-male, female-female. I call it a pillow fight. In the end they are Cichlids and will establish a hierarchy.
> 
> ...




Thanks, I definitely don't want to keep just 1 then. I was more so worried about them picking on the kuhlis but it seems they shouldn't. As long as the fighting is between them. I was wondering what kind of food they liked; I have bug bites, omega one veggie rounds, frozen brine and bloodworms. Might pick up another dry food.


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

You will love how they beg for blood worms! Flakes have never worked well for me and my Rams

I “think” the loaches will be fine. They generally are more nocturnal. Cory’s are ok unless you want to breed


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

So I still have my heart set on the rams but as a backup is there anything else I could stock in the tank instead of them?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Apistogramma


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## MNBassin (May 29, 2018)

Kribs?


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## Ravynn (Dec 19, 2017)

I think there's Apisto Cacatuoides but only males.


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## Roboto (Mar 24, 2020)

I wonder if this poster ever got the Rams. Mine are my favorite fish.


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## CommonCurt (May 21, 2020)

Roboto said:


> I wonder if this poster ever got the Rams. Mine are my favorite fish.


+1

I just got two adolescent Bolivian rams for my 20 long a couple weeks ago.


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## Roboto (Mar 24, 2020)

CommonCurt said:


> +1
> 
> I just got two adolescent Bolivian rams for my 20 long a couple weeks ago.


Good luck! So far I've found them to be a little more intolerant of the higher PH's than some people report.
I have two tanks where all the fish and plants do well, but I must have a rock, or substrate that adds something to the water increasing the PH and hardness in one tank and I struggled with the rams in that tank not having appetite and sadly not making it whereas the two in my other tank where the PH is just slightly acidic have really thrived.

They are lovely fish. 
I'm in the process of rescaping my hard/high ph tank so that I get the same slightly acidic water result so that I can put a pair in there again.


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## CommonCurt (May 21, 2020)

Here are some quick phone shots.


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