# Holly



## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

04/28/19









04/28/20


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Looking good so far! Whereabouts in NC are you? I'm just over the SC border from Charlotte.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Phil Edwards said:


> Looking good so far! Whereabouts in NC are you? I'm just over the SC border from Charlotte.


Hey Phil - thanks for stopping by. I'm an hour and a half up the road in Hickory. Any LFS suggestions? We've lost the only one really locally some time ago. Don't mind traveling to find.

And while here, a quick update: Two weeks in and plants are growing. Hair grass has just about doubled in height - starting to float on the surface. Lobelia Cardinalis has shown the second most growth. Sagittarius subulata has grown a little I think and have just noticed it's first runner breaking the surface. During the last water change also noticed new leaves on all four anubias nana petite. I have nine clumps of Cryptocoryn wendtii brown which have shown little to no growth, three of which look worse than when planted. I guess to be somewhat expected but they are so small it's hard to imagine how long 'til they'll even be noticeable.

My original plan for this tank was to have anubias and buce on the wood with patches of mostly crypts and a few others and a tall thin plant anchoring the opposite corner from where the wood is buried leaving a fair amount of open gravel. Starting to rethink this somewhat or postponing that plan. Am concerned with the lack of plant mass/heavy initial growth to thwart the algae. During the last water change, siphoned off a little bit of filamentous algae on the wood closest to the light. At the same time saw the dwarf sag pearling quite a bit while the water depth was halved. So torn between too much light and not enough. Considering getting a second two 54 watt t5 HO light and a couple of colored bulbs and seeing what might grow. What do y'all think?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

The best store I know of in the area is Aquatica, right off Clanton Rd and 77. I worked there for a brief time and the manager and owner treat their employees like [censored][censored][censored][censored] so I stopped supporting them after I left. That being said, given our options for freshwater stuff in the area, it's the best choice. As for light, I'd leave the light how it is for now since you've got such a low plant load. Regarding the plants, give the Crypts a few months to get their bearings and start growing again. They can take a long time to get happy again after being planted in a new environment and may take a good dose of patience. I just recently did a 100% redo on my tank, but will be happy to give you cuttings when the time comes. Until you get a lot more plants in there I wouldn't change a thing. I know it's tough; especially when visiting forums and wanting your tank to "be like that" right away, but patience now will pay off big time in the long term.

Regards,
Phil


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Thanks for the above Phil. Did stop in to Aquatica and met a Tom McBride (I think). He warned me the plants were rough and, though hate to bad mouth any local business, he was not exaggerating. Still just the one light per your suggestion and accept the crypts are gonna take a while. I do feel the need to increase overall plant mass/add some easy quick growers to better compete with algae. May take you up on your generous offer of cuttings when the time comes but what I'm really looking for is some Limnophila guinnea. If you ever come across any of that...jk

OK, the last two weeks update:

05.19.19









The pic above is three weeks in before water change. The weekly hair algae growth has definitely increased from the week before but still mainly on the wood closest to the light. Most all came off easily enough from siphoning during water change. Am not really digging the giant hair grass. Ordered more plants to increase overall mass and replace the hair grass. Which brings us to week four:

05.26.19









Current plant list:

Cryptocoryne wendtii 
Anubias nana petite
Lobelia cardinalis
Eleocharis vivipara - giant hair grass - removed
Micranthemum micranthemoides - pearl weed
Sagittaria subulata - dwarf sagittaria

Hygrophila pinnatifida
Cryptocoryne retrospiralis
Echinodorus peruensis
Hygrophila difformis - water wisteria
Hydrocotyle tripartita
Bacopa caroliniana
Ludwigia peruensis/gladulosa var. diamond
Nesaea pedicellata golden
Rotala wallichii
Vallisneria nana

and also:

A. unknown bulb from buceplant.com - Aponogeton of some sort?
















B. unknown wild collected stem - thinking Ludwigia palustrus maybe?
















C. unknown wild collected stem - arrowhead/heart shaped leaves?
















D. unknown wild collected stem - purple serrated leaves prob. not fully submerged species?









Any info re the above would of course be appreciated.


When planting the new plants I discovered I have quite a diatom issue. Was not noticeable until I moved and stirred up the gravel when planting. Not really on many plant leaves yet but dusting the wood especially. So first fauna: eleven ramshorn snails - blue leopard - which are doing a fabulous job on the algae and replacing with snail fertilizer (tank half full i always say). Also got a second filter going to increase flow. The opposite back corner to the one filter is where the most diatoms can be seen so should help? And now feel with the second filter in I can do some more pertinent testing. So yeah, been keeping my sleeves wet just about everyday since. Grow baby, grow.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

TJ's a good guy and gives good advice. I just totally redid my tank last week and have to say, yours is looking better than mine. Maybe I should be going to you for cuttings! As for that local plant, I could have told you years ago, but I've been out of the native plant game for too long. Roadside ditches can have a surprising array of aquatics growing this time of year. I've found all sorts of neat stuff in them in the past.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Thanks for the reply Phil. TJ did offer to custom order fish in reasonable quantities which I might take him up on when I get to that point. And thanks for the compliment tho have been following your thread and can't say I agree with your assessment. Would love to swap cuttings at some point. Would love to have new growth requiring cutting first. Segue to week five:










Post water change. Again siphoned off as much algae esp. diatoms that I could. Definitely less hair algae than before week four water change. Did have to clean the front and side glass which had a little green tint for the first time. Crushed one snail which was a bummer but have seen at least a half dozen tiny specks moving across the back glass and too many ramshorn egg globules. Gonna have quite the colony I suspect. Generally there was not a lot of noticeable growth of the new plants. Am hoping most of their energy was used reestablishing roots and that they'll soon take off upward. 

The Nesaea golden looks pretty bad. Only two tops have any new growth. Had to trim two melted tops and most all other leaves have brown spots which I would call a fungus if they were terrestrial? Some of these spots were there when the bunch came in but not as big or as prevalent. If this progresses may have to remove all but the two new tops and see if I can save. Knew going in this one was probably the hardest to grow and probably beyond my skill level. 

The C retrospiralis has experienced the expected melt but several original leaves are still viable and three new leaves have sprouted. 

The H pinnatifida has produced some noticeable growth. Received one smaller top and another stem which I had cut the top off of. Super glued both tops and the one bottom half (three nodes) horizontally on the wood. Am hoping to keep them rather compact but not sure when or how to prune.

The R wallichii has just shown a little new growth. One stem is rather tall, has the most new growth, is broader than all the others and yellow vs the light green of most of the other new growth. Probably need to trim and replant but has the beginnings of a couple of side shoots right about where I'd like to cut and replant. Thinking I let them go a bit before trimming. These are where the diatoms were/are worst and the bottom bits of the smaller stems look a little rough. Hopefully diatoms will lesson and will get some real growth next week so I can trim and replant newer growth. 

A few bits of the hydrocotyl tripartita got tall enough to bend over into the gravel. The hope is to get them to be somewhat bushlike/not too tall.

Think I've identified the bulb buceplant accidentally included nestled in amongst the Nesaea - Barclaya longifolia. Looks just like the pictures down to the rhyzome. Speeking of which, don't know how deep to plant it. There were not many roots on the rhyzome so have it just below the gravel in order to keep it down. Hope that's ok? The leaves are extremely fragile and it's in a spot where it gets a lot of flow. Is that a bad thing? 

As far as I can tell, the rest look about the same as when planted. Don't guess that's a bad thing but it is hard to be patient. Lots of fun none the less -


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Looking good. Looks like you are going to want to keep soft-water fish.They will love your water parameters.

Any ideas on what would like to add fish-wise? I can help


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Hey there Discusluv. Would never turn down any help offered. Plan "A" definitely calls for soft water fishes. Angels have always been a favorite and what I most wanted when first putting this together. Having trouble deciding which kind. Think I would love a group of platinums but also like most of the other phenotypes so possibly a mix - silver or zebra, smokey or chocolate, marble, black lace are all to my liking. How many in a 75 gallon you guess? Considering would also like a good sized group of corydoras - at least eight. Not sure many like the warmth the angels do though. And finally a school of 12-15 rummynose tetras or other similar. My biggest hesitation re the above is that it seems a pretty typical grouping. Meh. Could end up with plan "B" - totally unspecified at this point. Whatcha think?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

If you are open to doing regular weekly water changes you have perfect water for a wild-form of Angel- certainly something different than the domestics seen at your LFS. I can give you source information where you could get the types I list- if interested. 
These Angels are extraordinary. I currently have a group of wild Altum Angel juveniles (_Pterophyllum altum_) that I am growing out- Ill attach a video I just took yesterday of the them.
But, there are others that are also available in wilds: Peruvian Altum Angelfish (_Pterophyllum scalare_ var. "Peruvian Altum" or _Pterophyllum leopoldi _,

If you did the wild Angels I would get 5-6 to allow them to pair up. 
I would do Cardinal tetras- like 24 of them. Grow them up with juveniles and will get large enough to not be eaten by Angels. I actually have some green neons with my juveniles that most likely will become a snack, but Ill be moving the Altums shortly to a 180 gallon. 

I would not recommend any corydoras- temps too high for wild forms. But there are several other ancistrus, baryancistrus, and L numbered plecostomus species that will work. 

Other options are apistogramma species ( some varieties) and German Rams. 

Video of my juvenile Altums.

https://vimeo.com/339766297


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Hey there! It sounds like your plants are doing well, keep up the good work. As for fish, I'd go with 5-6 domestic strains of P. scalare as they don't have the growth potential Altums do. Those guys really need a larger tank go grow and spread out in. I've successfully kept a group of locally bred (in Atlanta) Koi Angels in a heavily planted 75 with little issue. One of the big plusses of domestics is they do just fine in the lower temperatures that plants appreciate. "Work with the water you have" is a favorite saying of mine, meaning go with plants and fish that do well in your base water quality as the more you mess with chemistry the more likely you are to screw things up at some point. Back in 2003 when I lived in Charlotte I kept a group of Discus and Apistos in a 90 gallon using Flourite and plain tap. The Angels were in full Aquasoil with higher CO2, but again, in plain tap. I recently added a school of wild caught (Project Piaba) Cardinals to the 80 gallon using plain tap and the only ones that have died were the couple that came in on death's door. If you dose a GH booster specifically to add Ca and Mg for the plants and not to hit a target GH you should be able to keep any soft water fish you want in your tank.

As for the Barclaya, it sounds like you've planted the rhizome just right. They normally show best in modest flow, but keeping it in high flow to grow out is a good idea. You're going to be moving things around in the future anyway. I guarantee it. 

Check your pms, I sent you something.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Hey y'all - Wild angels especially Altums headline my all time favorite dream tank. But alas, still just a dream. Even if the budget allowed, think I would quickly need a taller tank to really do them justice. One day... So for now 5-6 domestic angels. I've heard Sterbai Corys are often paired with angels as they are more tolerant to higher temps. I like them too but think they're about the same tone/color as the Saf T Sorb. If domestic angels manage ok in the 74-76F range, could perhaps do other cory species. Really like trilineatis but also a group of metae, panda, adolphi, schwartzii would be cool colorwise. And have/will consider cardinals but would like to contemplate more dither type fish. Which group do you think I should get first? Oh, and how rough are corys with plants. I'm still terribly trepid when I so much as unintentionally brush a leaf. Can visualize them frolicking (read uprooting) around the tank. Oh, and the diatoms they must stir up. Good? Bad? Yikes, promise I'm not that neurotic. Indecisive, yes.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

schooldazed said:


> Hey y'all - Wild angels especially Altums headline my all time favorite dream tank. But alas, still just a dream. Even if the budget allowed, think I would quickly need a taller tank to really do them justice. One day... So for now 5-6 domestic angels. I've heard Sterbai Corys are often paired with angels as they are more tolerant to higher temps. I like them too but think they're about the same tone/color as the Saf T Sorb. If domestic angels manage ok in the 74-76F range, could perhaps do other cory species. Really like trilineatis but also a group of metae, panda, adolphi, schwartzii would be cool colorwise. And have/will consider cardinals but would like to contemplate more dither type fish. Which group do you think I should get first? Oh, and how rough are corys with plants. I'm still terribly trepid when I so much as unintentionally brush a leaf. Can visualize them frolicking (read uprooting) around the tank. Oh, and the diatoms they must stir up. Good? Bad? Yikes, promise I'm not that neurotic. Indecisive, yes.


Just about any schooling/schoaling fish will go well with Angels. Rasboras, Tetras, Barbs, etc. If you look at Barbs do a bit of research to make sure they're not fin-nippers though. If you'd like, once you figure out what type of Angels you want I'll be happy to talk with you about what schooling fish would go best color and behavior wise. As for Cories, I'd avoid them if you're using Safe-T-Sorb; that stuff's pretty sharp and can be harmful to sensitive barbels and such. That pretty much rules out Cories and Barbs. I typically avoid them in fully planted tanks anyway as they do tend to uproot carpeting plants and such; especially in less dense substrates.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Domestic Angels it is. 

I like tetras with Angel's- personal preference.
My favorite with domestic Angels ( which can be kept at lower temperatures at 78-79 degrees) is the Bleeding Heart tetra. 

But, other alternatives are : Diamond tetra, Lemon tetra, Cardinals, or Congo tetras.

I would not do corydoras on that substrate as well.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

That's a bummer re the cories. Don't really feel the STS is sharp edged per se but I guess is somewhat abrasive on its face - like 2000 grit emory cloth. Did some searching here and found mixed opinions on cories and STS. Like anything else though I guess. What I did come across while searching the above is a pretty much unanimous experience of STS absorbing kH and with a kH of 0-1 out of my tap, thinking this is concerning. Mixed reviews of STS sucking up gH. I too subscribe to Phil's "work with the water you have" mantra, but you gotta do what you gotta do? What should I do? My gH test bottle expired some time ago and though my kH test is still within date, got them together so have replaced them both and will get some more comfortably valid data before and after today's water change.

Along with not being terribly comfortable with the stability of this tank, there's another issue I need to address before adding livestock. The hot water in the plant is not hooked up to my office though do have cold water. Thinking it will be easier to pump heated water from a 55 gallon barrel to the tank than to plumb in hot water. This will also allow me to potentially treat the barrel water as needed. If it does come down to it, any thoughts on target kh and gh values?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

If the barrel solution works for you, go for it, lots of folks use that method. As for the KH/GH thing, try dosing after water change and then again midway through the week if you need to. I haven't added GH booster to actually get to a GH target in nearly 20 years. It's more useful to me as a way to supplement Ca, Mg, and often, K. It may be helpful to think of it like that too given your situation. As far as KH, if you're looking for CO2 consistency then you'll need to add a KH booster daily to make up for what's lost, or dose after water changes and call it good (what I do)...or not use one at all.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

06.09.19 Week 6 post water change:










Not a lot to report from week 5 to week 6. Still fighting diatoms. Pulled/trimmed/split/replanted the R. wallichii, L. cardinalis, and H. tripartita and deep vacuumed around the left side. Stirred up diatoms on and around plants on the right side. Thinking now I spent too much of the water change siphoning directly on the wood. Think next water change I'll simply rub it and swish plants and substrate and just siphon the water column generally. May do this mid week/tomorrow. Guess all in all am seeing some moderate growth.

Added twentyfive grams NilocG gH booster to add Ca and Mg which resulted in 2-3 degrees gH. Added eleven grams sodium bicarbonate bringing the kH to two degrees. There must have been a little kH in the tank pre WC as four grams NaCO3 gave me >1 degree and it took seven additional grams added one gram at a time to get >2 degrees. The next day, however, kH was <1 degree. Guess the Saf T Sorb is still sucking up kH. I really want to add fish but thinking it's more important to get kH stabilized. Am leery of putting a lot of sodium in the tank. Am thinking I might should roll my own gH booster with MgSO4, CaCo3, and KHCO3 to speed up saturating the STS without adding all that sodium. Thoughts?

And been working on dialing in CO2. Tap pH = 7.3. Off gased tank pH = 7.2 (24 hrs). Lights on pH = 6.5. Peak pH = 6.1 (from approx. two hours after lights on (CO2 on for three hours) to at least three hours after lights off. Not sure what the pH level is right before CO2 starts. Gotta get to work earlier tomorrow. Thinking it's only in the upper six range. Have a little bit of surface oil slick. Seems to me there's quite a bit of surface agitation from the filters but... Guess I need to divert more flow to the Cerges reactor. Also shut off CO2 earlier and possibly decrease CO2 volume?

Also have been increasing my understanding of fert dosing. Thank you @Greggz for your shared spreadsheet. It has been most helpful. Am not quite ready to post it though as there are still some blank fields and some other values I need to hone.

Ok, time to sit back and enjoy the last minutes of tank light and ponder all that I want to do before calling it a day.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

06.15.19 Week 7 post water change:










Diatoms may be a little better/less this week. Certainly post water change as I really stirred up the gravel as well as sponged the glass, rubbed down the wood, and brushed off the plants (multiple times). Installed an Aquaclear 70 during wc and left it on an hour after refilling before cranking the canisters back up. Then just left it running for now. 

Finally see some wisteria growth. Thought and kinda hoped this would be the one I'd have to trim weekly. And some growth anyway on the other stems. Assembled all the vertical stems of what I'm thinking is Ludwigia palustrus (wild gathered)and moved to the left side of tank in front of the E. peruensis. Speaking of which, both have put out shoots with 5-6 plantlets. Guess I just cut these off?

And changed my GH booster to also boost kH as my STS substrate continues to suck up the little kH that's in my tap. Attaching a copy of GreggZ shared dosing worksheet. Again, most helpful. Thank you @Greggz: 










First mixed five grams each KHCO3, CaCO3, and MgSO4 in a pint squeeze bottle to dissolve then squirted in tank. I guess the appropriate description would be chalky. I'm talking white water tank. Was a little concerned for a bit but water did clear up in fifteen-twenty minutes. So I did it again with five more grams of each. After that fully dissolved kH measured 3-4 and GH 4-5. Won't know 'til Monday if the Saf T Sorb sorbed all the kH again but suspect it will.

All in all, all's good. Wish my phone images weren't so washed out. Need to figure something out there. Also need to learn how to make the image a thumbnail that one can click and bring up the full size image. Could certainly use some help there. And if anyone notices anything questionable or even downright crazy especially regarding my dosing please chime in. Not at all confident and want to learn. 

Cheers


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

schooldazed said:


> Again, most helpful. Thank you @Greggz:


Glad to see the spreadsheet helped.

Good record keeping is underestimated. I rely on it to help point me in the right direction.

And very nice start to a tank, really coming along nicely.

Will be following and looking forward to seeing where it goes from here. Subscribed.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

07.11.19 almost week 10 pre water change:










Things are settling in and seeing good growth and almost no algae. A very little bit of what I think is staghorn but really only singular antler-like black threads limited mostly to the swords. Had been picking them off as I saw them but they are tough and am not sure that hasn't aided in them spreading somewhat so quit that. It looks like it might be lessening the last couple of days now. Added a water skimmer timed to come on for a couple of hours right after lights out. Works pretty good as a skimmer but really think the aeration has helped both plants and fish. 

That's right! Added first fish - twenty rummy nose, eight corydoras trilineatus, ten cherry barbs. The cherry barbs were somewhat of an impulse buy (another twelve bucks to save forty in shipping) but I really like them. Now for the bad: am down to 12 rummies, 6 cherries, and two cories. One cory came in injured/ulcer and did not last long. Another cory died overnight along with two rummynose. Noticed that cory and then another the next morning had white noses and necrotic barbels. Lost one, two, or three fish a day for about a week. From what I researched looked like columnaris. Could have been accute ammonia poisoning but seems some stress induced opportunistic bacteria is more likely. Had ordered five otos from another source which I put in while losing the others and they have done fine/no losses. Thinking they had easier travels. But four days now without loss so hoping that's over. Will replenish the losses as soon as I find another source for the rummies.

In researching this plague the one contributing factor which may have been my fault was a low GH? My tap is not far off from RO water it seems. Just over one dGH and dKH - TDS of 54. Have brought the GH to about five and the KH to just over two. From what I understand low KH is fine, even good for plants? I increased it by using CaCO3 (along with MgSO4) to raise GH without adding so much K from the GH booster. Why does Gh booster generally have so much potasium?

Trimmed the r. wallichii and h. difformis during yesterday's water change. Should probably have trimmed more of them and some of most everything else needs to be cut back. The b. caroliniana esp. is starting to darken and thin towards the gravel. But alas, I'm still very slow at it and didn't want to stress the fish too much.

So gonna let things settle in a little bit more. Replace lost fish when available. Then... The angels.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

That's looking really good! It's come a long way.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Thanks for the continued encouragement, Phil. Much appreciated.



















Did a more thorough pruning during yesterday's water change. Yanked both clumps of L. palustrus, the L. peruensis, R. walichii, and B. caroliniana; trimmed and replanted tops. Topped and replanted pearl weed. Trimmed the H. tripartita and H. pinnatifida. Thinned some S. subulata. Didn't play with the wisteria but probably should have even though had thinned some last week - next week. Some cuttings went into a ten gallon I have going with a few red cherry shrimp and snails. But after that some went to the bin - *gasp*. All's still a little precious to me as it's well within my memory that "these plants may never grow." 

No fish loss this week! Have ordered replacement cories from the original dealer I had consulted and should have gone with initially. Have been witnessing the cherry barbs courting and actually saw one drop an egg earlier in the week. Figured if I saw one, there are likely many. Guess it's possible a fry or two could make it in this tank. Am a little worried about the rummies. See a few ick-like white spots on some fins but they're behaving normal. And there's nothing on any of the other species. Don't know if I should treat? 

Considering dosing CaCO3 in small amounts through the week probably on micros days. KH was down to just under one at time of wc so did 50% at 2.7 dKH resulting in 1.8 dKH. Figure if KH was closer to two at end of week, I could use more CaCO3 without harming fish (and MgSO4) thus less GH booster - potassium. I feel I've read on these pages some use MgNO3 instead of KNO3? Have searched for magnesium nitrate and what I've found contains magnesium oxide as well. Is that what is used in the hobby?

Feeding time - Cheers


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

schooldazed said:


> Have searched for magnesium nitrate and what I've found contains magnesium oxide as well. Is that what is used in the hobby?


Regular Magnesium Nitrate Mg(NO3)2 should only be that. It tends to absorb water from the air (hygroscopic) and when it comes into contact with water it forms some Magnesium Oxide, Nitrogen Oxide, and Oxygen. The grade you find and how well it's been kept from humidity will determine how much of the product is still the Mg(NO3)2 vs. decomposition products and other impurities. To be honest, you're better off getting Epsom Salts from the pharmacy if you're looking to supplement Magnesium specifically. USP (Pharma) grade is the best we can get before getting into laboratory reagent grade stuff and you know the Epsom Salt will remain stable in its bag. 

Still liking the look of this. Let me know before you thin out that Sag again. I may be up for taking some off your hands.

Keep it up!


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

The above photo is from Thurs 08/08. Pulled, topped and replanted the L. palustrus and R wallichii during yesterday's water change as well as some selective pruning. Neglected to take a photo tho.

And my apologies @Phil Edwards. I really thought I had responded to your post above. Would gladly get you some sag sub next time I thin or just let me know anytime and I'll pull some. The interest in Mg(NO3)2 was as a substitute for KNO3. I was concerned I was already adding a lot of potassium from the GH booster.

A fair amount has happened in the last two weeks. For starters the ich got to the point where it had to be treated. Eight days if Ich-X with daily 25 gallon water changes did the trick. A chore for sure but didn't lose any fish. 

Gave the lone surviving cory eight friends earlier in the week. Also, angels - ordered three each black velvet and platinum and received four of each:










May have to rehome a couple if they all make it to young adulthood. The blacks are nickle size and the plats more like dime size. Have them in a ten gallon for growout with pool filter sand and a single stem of wisteria. Am thinking now it might have been better to have left the tank bare bottomed as I try to fatten them up with many feedings a day. Easier to clean. The ramshorns I put in there seem to have difficulty traversing the sand. Anyone observe similar? Yesterday, I noticed one of the blacks wasn't eating. Might need to deworm/generally treat for parasites but would have thought the breeder would have. Maybe just constipated. Will be watching that very closely.

As for the plants, no algae atm. At the early stage of considering making some changes as the tank is getting pretty jungle-like. May soon try a few different species and move and remove a few. And thinking I might have some kind of nutrient deficiency but I've no experience or knowledge on the subject. The R. wallichii is generally healthy and grows about 8-10" per week but a couple of stems (two to the right of image) seem to get ratty tops periodically:










And one stem of L. peruensis (left side of image) is particularly curly leaved with noticable white veining. It's the only stem of the bunch like this and has been for some time:










Any thoughts/help would be greatly appreciated.


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## Bon MotMot (Aug 3, 2019)

I don't have any advice for you because I only know how to do low tech tanks but I think your tank is lovely! I bet you're glad you finally jumped in and tried a planted tank rather than just dreaming about it


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Thanks for the good words Bon MotMot. You are right of course. Dreaming was nice but actually doing has been great fun!


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Your tank is great and your plants have grown in nicely. 

But I want to focus on your stand. It's so clean and modern! I want it.

Have you decided to stain or paint it at all?


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

The 3 month progression of this tank is telling that you have a knack for this. Kudos!


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

somewhatshocked said:


> Your tank is great and your plants have grown in nicely.
> 
> But I want to focus on your stand. It's so clean and modern! I want it.
> 
> Have you decided to stain or paint it at all?


 
Well hello there somwhatshocked. Thanks for visiting and your kind comment. The stand is actually constructed very similarly to the plywood clad two by four type often used here. I edge glued the vertical posts. Then glued and screwed the horizontal internal rails to the inside of the posts. And finally face glued and screwed (from the inside) the exposed horizontal rails you see. The internal rails on the bottom were shelf thickness less wide then the exposed rails so the shelf just drops in and the top is a solid glued up board attached with some z-clips to allow for expansion. Hopefully this pic better describes:












This tank is in my office which is within a manufacturing facility where we make wood frames and other wood components for upholstered seating. Not bragging but consequently I have a set of tools available to me that would put Spicoli's dad's to shame. Here is my belt sander for example:












The wood is a grade of soft maple described as WHND (worm holes not defect) and is our basic frame stock bought by the truckload (~18,000 board feet) surfaced two sides to 1 1/8" thick. Some woodworkers here might recognize it as "ambrosia." The wormholes are structurally sound and I really like the blue/green/grey/tan/brown mineral streaks eminating from each. It is still in a raw wood state as I was rushed but would have liked to have clear coated it which really brings out the colors. Hope to yet. My wife thinks I need to add doors to hide the gear underneath. May do that as well. 

Would gladly answer any other questions regarding. Still limited on my planted tank knowledge but do know my woodworking. Thanks again

Bump:


ipkiss said:


> The 3 month progression of this tank is telling that you have a knack for this. Kudos!



And a hearty hello to you, ipkiss. Thank you. I have read (all fourteen pages of) your journal here which is as thoughtful and informative as I've found your demeanor throughout the forum. - Cheers


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Hey there! If you're concerned about the amount of Potassium you're adding, an easy and cheap solution would be to use less GH booster and supplement Ca and Mg with Plaster of Paris (Calcium Sulfate) and Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate heptahydrate). If you're ever in my area let me know ahead of time and I'll toss a few bags of Ca your way.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Hey Phil - Thanks for the above. Have ordered some CaSO4(2H20). Have Epsom salts. Will be making the change as I run out of GH booster. Any ideas of why there is generally a fairly high percentage of K2SO4 in Gh boosters?


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

08/16/19 pre and post water change



















Pulled and/or topped pretty much all of the stems and replanted so able to do a fair amount of gravel vacking. Took out all together the H. pinnatifida on the center section of the branch. It just got way out of control. Now looking at it, thinking I should remove a fair amount of what remains. I really like the plant but haven't figured out how to prune/keep it more compact. Guess there's enough of it I can just trial and error hack at it. If anyone wants some please let me know.

I add Gh booster, CaCO3, and MgSO4 to tap water stored in a loosely covered 60 gallon pickle barrel and keep the pump on for aeration. Should have pulled the lid first thing this morning as the barrel water was quite a bit warmer than the tank when i had to use it late this afernoon. Raised the tank temp from 77 to 80-81F. Fish looked active afterwards so hoping no ill effects. Or maybe they were just looking for a way to escape and not really basking in the warmth.

Otherwise all fish seem to be doing well. Of the cherry barbs I have three males and three females. The males are always quite randy and relentless in their persuit of the females when not flaring at each other. Their colors are amazing - red so deep they're almost black. But their activity level can be a little much for this tank imo. Am wondering if getting three more females may ease the chasing somewhat or just compound it. Any thoughts?

The angel not eating last week has rebounded after a three day fast. He's actually the biggest but thinking he may have been injured or overly badgered by the smallest black who had been something of a bully but only toward the other blacks. Now that the big guy has recovered, he has taken over the mantle of bully; but again, only against the other blacks. Curious. Cichlids just being cichlids I guess. A snapshot of their 10 gallon tank with the big guy in the upper right while not eating:










And a ten gallon "clippings" tank. Four RCS, ramshorn and pond snails, and a single (guessing) amano which must have hitchhiked with the cherries:










And one last thing. I've had poor success hatching baby brine shrimp. Is this a no brainer easy exercise and I just have a bad batch of cysts or does it take some practice and expertise?


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Have enjoyed catching up on your thread and the progress you've made. Your tank is looking great! I used STS as well, and had similar issues with it sucking up & lowering the hardness. Given that my tap is hard unlike yours, over the past 3 months it has gradually come to within a degree or two of tap levels. 

Your angels are beautiful--where did you get them? I've always wanted black angels, but hear varying reports on the hardiness of the double dark strain. Apparently now they're breeding them with different genetics so that they're hardier. Do you happen to know what yours are? If not, I can always ask the breeder. Are you planning to breed yours? That tank would look amazing with a family of angels in it....

How are your new cories doing on the STS after your initial losses? I've considered them as an alternative to bristlenose plecos because they're notorious for eating angel eggs. Not sure if the cories would do the same??

Congratulations on the beautiful results to all your hard work.


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## someoldguy (Feb 26, 2014)

schooldazed said:


> And one last thing. I've had poor success hatching baby brine shrimp. Is this a no brainer easy exercise and I just have a bad batch of cysts or does it take some practice and expertise?


Takes some practice and a bit of attention to detail .Here's what I do . 

Salt solution : I prepare a stock solution to a specific gravity of 1.030 , or a touch higher measured via a hydrometer. Halite ice melter (sodium chloride NOT calcium chloride )is what I usually use , but right now I'm using 'Instant Ocean' marine salt as I was able to get a broken box cheap . The ice melter works just fine, is cheap , and can be found in 5lb bags . Table salt less so , as it contains an anti-caking agent and dextrose which I suspect messes up the salinity reading .

Hatcher: a 2l. soda bottle with the bottom cut off and the top on tightly so it doesn't leak . It's inverted in a 1lb. coffee can stand . 

To get things going , I put shrimp eggs into the bottle , and then add the water . This seems to saturate the eggs better and maybe results in less eggs floating . The egg/water mix is heavily aerated . My fish room is a bit cool (low 70's F.) so hatching takes a bit longer . Usually I'll get a pretty good harvest after 48 hrs. or so , with decent, but diminishing, ones for the next 2 days. Warmer temps. will give a faster hatch .

My eggs are kept in the freezer . Once the seal is broken on the container you want to keep the eggs cool and dry . I get 1 lb. cans as I hatch a lot of shrimp , and a can , once opened, will be good for at least a year when covered and kept in the freezer . 
I've found the eggs in the little glass vials to be questionable at best . 

Hope this helps some.


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## Duboisi (Jul 11, 2019)

wow beautiful progression and loved watching the journey! really nice job!


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Have enjoyed catching up on your thread and the progress you've made. Your tank is looking great! I used STS as well, and had similar issues with it sucking up & lowering the hardness. Given that my tap is hard unlike yours, over the past 3 months it has gradually come to within a degree or two of tap levels.
> 
> Your angels are beautiful--where did you get them? I've always wanted black angels, but hear varying reports on the hardiness of the double dark strain. Apparently now they're breeding them with different genetics so that they're hardier. Do you happen to know what yours are? If not, I can always ask the breeder. Are you planning to breed yours? That tank would look amazing with a family of angels in it....
> 
> ...



Hey - Thanks so much. I actually really like the safe-t-sorb for looks and planting tho I don't have much experience with other substrates. In retrospect think it must be easier starting with soft water vs your trials. 


I purchased the angels from Joe Gargas. He sells on at least four venues I know of as well as direct. I can message you his contact info tonight - don't know all the forum rules about advertising. Had heard conflicting reports regarding but looked to me like his recent feedback was positive as was my experience. According to him his blacks are homozygous for both the dark and stripeless gene (double dark velvet phenotype). As juvies it's really too early to tell and breeding would of course determine for sure. Have also read that D/D angels are generally smaller but for now these are eating like little piggies and growing. Don't know of any genetic changes to them but I can see how good husbandry and crossing could improve heartiness. These do have nice finnage. Two of the plats had one short ventral but hoping that's not genetic. Would like to experience breeding angels but this group probably isn't the best to get interesting offspring. Both would breed true to themselves and crossing the two would yield black hybrids with single blue and stripeless genes. 


And all the new cories are doing great. The first batch I purchased from a big online retailer and I think were damaged in transit if not before. The new ones are constantly playing and super fun. No visible barbel damage rooting around the safe-t-sorb as of yet.

Bump:


someoldguy said:


> Takes some practice and a bit of attention to detail .Here's what I do .
> 
> Salt solution : I prepare a stock solution to a specific gravity of 1.030 , or a touch higher measured via a hydrometer. Halite ice melter (sodium chloride NOT calcium chloride )is what I usually use , but right now I'm using 'Instant Ocean' marine salt as I was able to get a broken box cheap . The ice melter works just fine, is cheap , and can be found in 5lb bags . Table salt less so , as it contains an anti-caking agent and dextrose which I suspect messes up the salinity reading .
> 
> ...



Thanks so much for the advise. Guess I need to get a hydrometer. Been a few decades since I last had one - teehee. I attempted to convert specific gravity to ppm to grams of rock salt which I know is not sound science - used 19 grams in one liter. And also from the above now know I need to increase aeration. Was timid to do so as so many eggs were getting hung up on the sides of the bottle above the water line. And I've had the eggs for several weeks and haven't kept them in the freezer. Perhaps that too has contributed to my difficulties. Will keep at it and report. Thanks again.

Bump:


Duboisi said:


> wow beautiful progression and loved watching the journey! really nice job!



Thank you, that's very kind. Am having a blast.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

schooldazed said:


> I purchased the angels from Joe Gargas. He sells on at least four venues I know of as well as direct. I can message you his contact info tonight - don't know all the forum rules about advertising. Had heard conflicting reports regarding but looked to me like his recent feedback was positive as was my experience. According to him his blacks are heterozygous for both the black and stripeless gene (double dark velvet phenotype). As juvies it's really too early to tell and breeding would of course determine for sure. Have also read that B/B angels are generally smaller but for now these are eating like little piggies and growing. Don't know of any genetic changes to them but I can see how good husbandry and crossing could improve heartiness. These do have nice finnage. Two of the plats had one short ventral but hoping that's not genetic. Would like to experience breeding angels but this group probably isn't the best to get interesting offspring. Both would breed true to themselves and crossing the two would yield black hybrids with single blue and stripeless genes.


Thanks, I'll check him out. One of the challenges of trying to buy a group of juveniles to get a breeding pair is that online breeders tend to offer groups from one brood, so you'd be inbreeding siblings if they pair off. Much harder to find 3 of one strain, 3 of another. Guess I'll ask some breeders and see what they suggest.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

FTS 09/13/19










FTS 09/27/19










Well feel like this tank is kind of in a holding pattern at this point. Not much different between the above two pics and yesterday's pre water change Friday look. Did hack back the H. pinnatifida fairly severely this time. Otherwise just minor trimming here and there. Hope to soon change things up a little. The S. subulata is getting fairly long in spots. The B. caroliniana is a little leggy and not very colorful on top as compared to my ten gallon trimmings tank. The L. peruensis gets a little bare near the substrate. And the wood also casts a pretty big shadow with only the two bulb t5HO fixture directly overhead. Yes, guess I'm psyching myself up for bigger light with plant specific bulbs and the potential to grow all kinds of plants (and algae, hmm). 


Did notice this yesterday










The leaves sprouting at the base of this wisteria stem look atypical to me. More like emergent looking leaves? Anyone seen similar? Indicative of anything? 


Also, been about two months since adding any plants or fish but have noticed this over the last three or four weeks:










Anyone help id this moss? It's actually the only place where I have any algae in the tank. Would like it to grow (no, no, the moss) to where I can transplant it to my ten gallon RCS tank. But at the same time do not want the algae to spread. Nor the moss beyond this one spot for that matter. Should I pull it now?


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

The angels are in.










Figured I might not want to have my arms in the tank too much as they settle in so did a fairly large trim and rearranged a few things during Friday water change day. It was past lights out time when I finally finished maintenance and plopped them in. They were pretty skittish as they have been all along in their ten gallon grow out tank. Hoping the larger tank and greater plant cover will alleviate some of that over time. Realized this is their first experience with other fish. They're the biggest fish in this tank but have been behaving so far. 

Checked them out yesterday morning (Saturday) and they seem to be comfortable. No clamped fins or quaking in a corner though a little cautious yet in exploring their new environs. Still mostly sticking together like in the pic above. Funny but am really noticing the flow in this tank now with them in it. They're not always those proud triangular sentinels standing guard over the ten gallon but now often have that awkward looking lemon shape as they push into the current. 

Am still concerned about feeding them the amount they are used to. Gave them two feedings yesterday about three hours apart. Once with floating/slow sinking granules and then with freeze dried blood worms. They ate well and about the amount they would over a weekend (office tanks). During the week I would feed them five times a day or more. Fortunately they are almost exclusively top feeding but at that rate the other fish in this tank couldn't possibly keep up with all the angels miss and that sinks. Will have to cut back on that amount somewhat but they are still ravenous eaters and don't want to stunt their growth. Suggestions...?


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

FTS 11/02/19










Again, no major changes. Angels have really settled in. They are no longer skittish unless I really knock the tank. Quite a change from before. Bigger tank with plenty of plant cover no doubt. Also they don't seem to be bothered by, nor do they really bother, the other fish. I thought the rummy nose would school tighter after introducing the angels but witnessing more of the opposite. Almost as if the angels keep together more: 










Added a feeding ring (floating loop of airline tubing) which has helped in feeding the angels multiple times a day without too, too much food waste. Occasionally a rummy or cherry barb will brazenly dart to the surface within the ring and snare a tasty morsel but mostly they chase the falling bits. Fun to watch but hope I'm not over doing it. Parameters still spot on - NH3=0, NO2=0, NO3= ~10-20ppm.

Looking like the tank is deficient in something though. Both Ludwigia are losing leaves which generally show discoloration and some pinholes and a few H. pinnatifida leaves are yellowish with green spots. Help?










When I said a few of the H. pinn leaves it was pretty much just the four leaves pictured. Otherwise, this one's been growing like mad. I've twice pulled quite a percentage of it but it continues to sprawl. I've seen other tanks with tight masses of the stuff but am clueless as to how they've pruned. It typically sends out side shoots of three to five nodes with small opposite leaves then a vertical "stem" that will grow quite large. 










Dunno. Would really like to know the trick in keeping it more compact. 

Oh, and back to feeding the angels; been using Bug Bites and Hikari freeze dried blood worms and some Omega One flake which they like least but where I thought they were getting some veggie they need. The gnawed tender tips of my lobelia and bacopa got me to reading the flake ingredients and to realizing I need a better food source for their leafy greens. Any suggestions on that would be most appreciated, too.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Both your tank & your angels are growing beautifully. I'm impressed your angels growing so uniformly. The Black Velvet/Golden Blushing I got nearly 5 wks ago now range in size from one barely bigger than their original dime-size to nearly half dollar. I too was surprised when mine started nibbling on the algae I'd scrape off the sides. But I haven't seen them nibbling on any plants--are you sure that's not the barbs? If you don't have algae to feed them, there are plenty of green foods you could supplement to keep everybody happy.

Ravenous & messy eaters is an understatement. Mine were raised on and still vastly prefer flakes--which they suck in, spit out, and create cloud of small flakes some too small even for their guppy tank companions. I keep ghost shrimp as a cleanup crew, and they hang out nearby to cash in on the food bonanza. I try to feed over a well planted area so the guppies feel comfortable hanging out under the top predators and snatching up what rains down. And they move in later and pick over the substrate pretty thoroughly. What they don't get the MTS & assassins will. And just got a 1/2" juvenile BN pleco to help with both food & algae clean up. 
@Discusluv on here recommended NL cichlid pellets. Still trying to wean mine from flakes to two different sizes of the pellets, with limited success so far--they love their flakes (Omega One here too) . Fortunately the guppies are happy to eat those too. FD blood worms don't seem to interest them much yet. But since the angels went in the tank, I haven't seen a single guppy fry from the 3 dozen or so now sharing their tank. That's the best angel food ever, I've found. 

Everything I've heard or read about growing out young cichlids is lots of big WC. Breeders will do 50%-100%/day--which would certainly solve any water quality issues. Don't have an autochanger, so I shoot for 30% 2x/wk, though that ends up at 20% 2/x wk if I"m traveling, etc. 

Subscribed!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> FTS 11/02/19
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I use New Life Spectrum Algaemax. Excellent food.
The following article is really helpful in understanding food labels and nutritional analysis/comparing fish food ingredients. Gives insight into the good, bad, and the ugly of commercially produced fish foods and the ingredients they use. 

http://nlsfishfood.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Nutrition-Article.pdf


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Hey - thanks you two for the feeding suggestions. I've tried NLS pellets but thinking they were a little smaller than cichlid size which may be part of why they were eschewed. Thinking it also had to do with them sinking quickly and the angel's preference to top feed. And maybe that they are harder than the other foods they're used to. But now I'm anthropomorphizing. What the heck do I know? I'm no fish. At least not on Sundays. 

And thanks especially Ms Amy for the NLS nutrition overview. Started skimming then quickly found I was reading every word. All made good sense to me. May try the NLS Algaemax though it too is a sinking pellet. Will also check out what's available locally using my newfound understanding on the subject. - Cheers


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> Hey - thanks you two for the feeding suggestions. I've tried NLS pellets but thinking they were a little smaller than cichlid size which may be part of why they were eschewed. Thinking it also had to do with them sinking quickly and the angel's preference to top feed. And maybe that they are harder than the other foods they're used to. But now I'm anthropomorphizing. What the heck do I know? I'm no fish. At least not on Sundays.
> 
> And thanks especially Ms Amy for the NLS nutrition overview. Started skimming then quickly found I was reading every word. All made good sense to me. May try the NLS Algaemax though it too is a sinking pellet. Will also check out what's available locally using my newfound understanding on the subject. - Cheers


Excellent! Glad it was helpful!


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## silasvirus82 (Aug 12, 2019)

schooldazed said:


> And one last thing. I've had poor success hatching baby brine shrimp. Is this a no brainer easy exercise and I just have a bad batch of cysts or does it take some practice and expertise?


Brine shrimp are super easy to hatch. Buy this: https://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/hatchery-dish and follow the instructions. I put 1 liter of warm water into a pitcher and add roughly 5 teaspoons of salt. Pour that into this dish and add a scoop of eggs. The first shrimp start appearing in 10 hours or so and continue to hatch for up to two days. The little mesh catcher in the middle easily removes the shrimp and the design of the dish means no aeration and perfect separation from the eggs. It really couldn't be easier.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

silasvirus82 said:


> Brine shrimp are super easy to hatch. Buy this: https://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/hatchery-dish and follow the instructions. I put 1 liter of warm water into a pitcher and add roughly 5 teaspoons of salt. Pour that into this dish and add a scoop of eggs. The first shrimp start appearing in 10 hours or so and continue to hatch for up to two days. The little mesh catcher in the middle easily removes the shrimp and the design of the dish means no aeration and perfect separation from the eggs. It really couldn't be easier.


Hey thanks for the above. Checked that out and even youtubed it. I had been trying with a diy setup but this device does look much easier. Am no longer trying to hatch bbs but hope to have the need again and very well may try this out. Should make plenty for my potential future needs. Perhaps two to rotate. Thanks again.


PS - Will be watching for your angels. Also need to further study your canister/sump combo. Will be following your 125 journal.


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## silasvirus82 (Aug 12, 2019)

schooldazed said:


> This tank is in my office which is within a manufacturing facility where we make wood frames and other wood components for upholstered seating. Not bragging but consequently I have a set of tools available to me that would put Spicoli's dad's to shame. Here is my belt sander for example:


I'm enjoying your journal as well, and wow, super jealous of the tools at your disposal.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Hey, thanks man. Just to put it into perspective, each of those three belts is 52" wide and eight and a half feet in circumference. Yeah, ok, now I'm bragging...


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## butchblack (Oct 25, 2019)

I don't know if this will help, but here are a couple of articles with pictures on plant deficiencies.

Tropical Fish Hobbyist - Jan/Feb 2019 Troubleshooting Nutrient Deficiencies in Aquatic Plants

https://theaquarium.club/aquarium-plants-deficiencies/


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Thanks for the links above butchblack. Studied them both along with some other researching on the subject and am making a few changes to my fert dosing. Probably most significantly, am now adding 5 grams/70 gallons K2SO4 or ~8.5 ppm potassium during weekly 50% water changes. Also bumping up my thrice weekly KH2PO4 from .25 to .30 grams for a little added PO4 fwiw. And had been using dry measured Plantex CSM+B for micros but at such small quantities (.4 grams/dose), was leery my sub-quantities were consistent so mixed up a half gallon yielding 32 liquid doses. Will be watching closely to see if any changes (hopefully for the better) are noticeable.

Gonna be especially hard to see changes if the angels continue to munch on the plants. They're basically attacking the wisteria which fortunately grows quickly and the leaves are large and already jagged-like so not so, so noticeable. The pearl weed and lobelia, however, have taken it pretty hard - both used to be much thicker and obviously had whole leaves:



















And the bacopa is worst of all as they've devoured the tips spurring side shoots aplenty:










I haven't a clue what to do about this other than grin and bear it or get less tasty plants. If anyone has any thougts...


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> Thanks for the links above butchblack. Studied them both along with some other researching on the subject and am making a few changes to my fert dosing. Probably most significantly, am now adding 5 grams/70 gallons K2SO4 or ~8.5 ppm potassium during weekly 50% water changes. Also bumping up my thrice weekly KH2PO4 from .25 to .30 grams for a little added PO4 fwiw. And had been using dry measured Plantex CSM+B for micros but at such small quantities (.4 grams/dose), was leery my sub-quantities were consistent so mixed up a half gallon yielding 32 liquid doses. Will be watching closely to see if any changes (hopefully for the better) are noticeable.
> 
> Gonna be especially hard to see changes if the angels continue to munch on the plants. They're basically attacking the wisteria which fortunately grows quickly and the leaves are large and already jagged-like so not so, so noticeable. The pearl weed and lobelia, however, have taken it pretty hard - both used to be much thicker and obviously had whole leaves:
> 
> ...


 Your Angels are doing that? 

What are you feeding? How often?


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Their favorite is Fluval Bug Bites. Also feed Hikari freeze dried blood worms. And Omega One flakes which they like least but are starting to eat better. They probably also end up eating half or more of the Hikari sinking wafers for bottom feeders intended for the cories and kuhli loaches. Have started to also give Omega One slow sinking veggie pellets. Funny thing there is the platinums eat the pellets ok but the blacks - not so much. Am still feeding two or three times a day and each feeding only one of the first three foods listed and usually an attempt with the veggie pellets before first feeding of the day. They just really don't seem to like the hard pellets (as much).


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

These guys are young aren't they, juveniles to sub-adults? Or are they adults?


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

I've had them for three months and got them when they were dime to nickel body size - I'm guessing four to six weeks old at that point. So yes, I'd say they are young - sub-adults. I hope you're going toward telling me they may very well grow out of it? Rebellious teenagers perhaps?


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## butchblack (Oct 25, 2019)

Interesting. As I'm planning on having angels I'm curious to see what plants they are eating and what plants they are not. At the moment I'm leaning towards dwarf hair grass, Amazon swords, jungle vai, undecided on mid-ground plants, some anubias and Java moss on the spiderwood, branch, and rocks.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> I've had them for three months and got them when they were dime to nickel body size - I'm guessing four to six weeks old at that point. So yes, I'd say they are young - sub-adults. I hope you're going toward telling me they may very well grow out of it? Rebellious teenagers perhaps?


 Actually, Im going to tell you that they are telling you something. They are doing it because they need more green in their diet. If they wont eat foods with greens ( besides your lovely plants) will need to supplement with a supplemental vitamin like Boyd's Vitachem. 

There are many cichlids where this behavior would be par for the course, but not with Angels.


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## TheUnseenHand (May 14, 2017)

Is that stand Ambrosia Maple? I love that.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

butchblack said:


> Interesting. As I'm planning on having angels I'm curious to see what plants they are eating and what plants they are not. At the moment I'm leaning towards dwarf hair grass, Amazon swords, jungle vai, undecided on mid-ground plants, some anubias and Java moss on the spiderwood, branch, and rocks.



I don't think this is typical angelfish behavior. Mine though have not shown any interest in vals or swords. I've seen them peck at anubias but I think not for their leaves but for ramshorn snail egg globules. My guys just eat. Think Discusluv is correct and they need more/better veggie food offerings.



Discusluv said:


> Actually, Im going to tell you that they are telling you something. They are doing it because they need more green in their diet. If they wont eat foods with greens ( besides your lovely plants) will need to supplement with a supplemental vitamin like Boyd's Vitachem.
> 
> There are many cichlids where this behavior would be par for the course, but not with Angels.


Yeah, figured. But are you sure it might not just be a phase - jk. Part of me does feel I've contributed to their voracity by intentionally overfeeding initially in "grow out" mode. Made them compulsive eaters? I mean they have bright green poo for heavens sake. I know they are omnivorous but how much vegetation do they need?


Will look into the Boyd's Vitachem. Is it recommended to add to food or directly to tank water? And thanks for all your help!




TheUnseenHand said:


> Is that stand Ambrosia Maple? I love that.



Hey and yes. In my trade it's called "wormy maple" and is less expensive than some "clear" grades. I suspect you'd be surprised what I pay for it. Have come to find it's very desirable to some other woodworkers and can demand a premium. I've started to have heavily wormy and figured boards set aside for a studio furniture maker friend. I really like it as well.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Have you actually seen your angels munching on the plants? Very odd--never experienced nor heard of angels doing that. Do you still have the tetras & barbs in there? They would seem to be the more likely plant-munching culprits than the angels, but.... That said, mine are about the same age/size as yours, and they do like to pick at the algae when I scrape the walls. Teenagers need their veggies, I guess

Amazing how picky they can be about food. Mine were raised on flake (of which they make an unholy mess during feeding frenzy), and it's been a challenge to wean them onto anything else. The Black Velvets have grown much bigger than the Golden Blushing and will take cichlid pellets if they're really hungry. But when they start to sink, they just watch them go by while begging for more flake. Thankfully the guppies have learned to swarm underneath during feeding time and manage to clean up most of the mess.
@Discusluv is our resident Cichlid Whisperer. Hopefully her feeding suggestions can keep them from destroying your plants--if indeed it is the angels doing it.....


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> Yeah, figured. But are you sure it might not just be a phase - jk. Part of me does feel I've contributed to their voracity by intentionally overfeeding initially in "grow out" mode. Made them compulsive eaters? I mean they have bright green poo for heavens sake. I know they are omnivorous but how much vegetation do they need?
> 
> 
> Will look into the Boyd's Vitachem. Is it recommended to add to food or directly to tank water? And thanks for all your help!



The Vitachem is an option if cant get them to actually eat a flake, pellet, etc... infused with green. Although I use it in addition to food sources.

I use Vitachem 2x weekly in food and in water column after water changes. They recommend more. Your fish will tell you what is good by their behavior. 

Some other options:
Feed only flake - no other foods to get them to start eating the flake. They will no doubt eat the flake eventually- these guys sound like they like to eat. 

Freeze-dried blackworms with spirulina or spinach. My angels and discus love this. This is their daily staple diet along with New Life Spectrum flake.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Have you actually seen your angels munching on the plants? Very odd--never experienced nor heard of angels doing that. Do you still have the tetras & barbs in there? They would seem to be the more likely plant-munching culprits than the angels, but.... That said, mine are about the same age/size as yours, and they do like to pick at the algae when I scrape the walls. Teenagers need their veggies, I guess
> 
> Amazing how picky they can be about food. Mine were raised on flake (of which they make an unholy mess during feeding frenzy), and it's been a challenge to wean them onto anything else. The Black Velvets have grown much bigger than the Golden Blushing and will take cichlid pellets if they're really hungry. But when they start to sink, they just watch them go by while begging for more flake. Thankfully the guppies have learned to swarm underneath during feeding time and manage to clean up most of the mess.
> 
> @*Discusluv* is our resident Cichlid Whisperer. Hopefully her feeding suggestions can keep them from destroying your plants--if indeed it is the angels doing it.....


I agree it is odd but it is indeed the angels. Have witnessed. Also, all current inhabitants predated the angels intro and this is new since then. 




Discusluv said:


> The Vitachem is an option if cant get them to actually eat a flake, pellet, etc... infused with green. Although I use it in addition to food sources.
> 
> I use Vitachem 2x weekly in food and in water column after water changes. They recommend more. Your fish will tell you what is good by their behavior.
> 
> ...



Will try starting with exclusively using the Omega One flake I have on hand with the Omega One slow sinking mini veggie pellets first thing (again this a.m. only the platinums ate the pellets - so strange). Will get the NLS flake asap to replace. Then try the Vitachem as you've prescribed if no improvement. Also, do you have a brand name or source for the blackworms w/ spirulina? Thanks again.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

schooldazed said:


> I agree it is odd but it is indeed the angels. Have witnessed. Also, all current inhabitants predated the angels intro and this is new since then.


Go figure. Seems it's trendy for everyone to go vegetarian these days.....


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> I agree it is odd but it is indeed the angels. Have witnessed. Also, all current inhabitants predated the angels intro and this is new since then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Looks like they are out of the Freeze-dried blackworms with spirulina still. 

They do have the worms with spinich-- Ive been feeding the spinach variety to my discus and Angels for about 6 months now-- they love it. 



https://www.amazon.com/Blackworms-S...+spinich&qid=1573585233&s=pet-supplies&sr=1-1


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## silasvirus82 (Aug 12, 2019)

I have not witnessed my angels touching any of the few plants I've got going thus far, which includes a healthy crop of staurogyne repens, several anubias nana, and a recently sprouted red tiger lotus. They pick food from the anubias since that is where I'm feeding, but don't actually touch the plants. As far as diet goes, my angels are also voracious eaters. I feed them live baby brine shrimp, brine shrimp flakes, frozen brine shrimp, frozen blood worms (fav), and Hikari micro wafers for veggies. They devour all of it, and even pick at the algae wafers I throw in for the plecos. It's crazy how fat their bellies are at the end of the day, but they don't leave anything behind. I anticipate cutting back on the groceries once I see growth starting to taper off, but they have gone from dime sized to half dollars in the couple months I've had them. Give those micro wafers a try. I use an autofeeder during the day while I'm at work and mix the brine shrimp flake and micro wafers. That is their staple diet when we leave them for extended periods of time as well.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Go figure. Seems it's trendy for everyone to go vegetarian these days.....


Yeah, I'm married with three [STRIKE]kids[/STRIKE] young adults and only one of us eats meat. Care to guess who?




Discusluv said:


> Looks like they are out of the Freeze-dried blackworms with spirulina still.
> 
> They do have the worms with spinich-- Ive been feeding the spinach variety to my discus and Angels for about 6 months now-- they love it.
> 
> ...


Am guessing you reconstitute those cubes? Searched their other products. Looks like they've been around awhile and seem respectable to me - quite the menu. Considering some of their flake worm and spirulina combos as well. Thanks yet again.



silasvirus82 said:


> I have not witnessed my angels touching any of the few plants I've got going thus far, which includes a healthy crop of staurogyne repens, several anubias nana, and a recently sprouted red tiger lotus. They pick food from the anubias since that is where I'm feeding, but don't actually touch the plants. As far as diet goes, my angels are also voracious eaters. I feed them live baby brine shrimp, brine shrimp flakes, frozen brine shrimp, frozen blood worms (fav), and Hikari micro wafers for veggies. They devour all of it, and even pick at the algae wafers I throw in for the plecos. It's crazy how fat their bellies are at the end of the day, but they don't leave anything behind. I anticipate cutting back on the groceries once I see growth starting to taper off, but they have gone from dime sized to half dollars in the couple months I've had them. Give those micro wafers a try. I use an autofeeder during the day while I'm at work and mix the brine shrimp flake and micro wafers. That is their staple diet when we leave them for extended periods of time as well.


Thanks for the info. Sounds like your angels are flourishing. Congrats. May give those micro wafers a go. Think that might put me at nine different varieties of food and several years worth of quantity. But I do love a good buffet...


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

pre wc









post wc









So major trim after approximately six months in. Removed all the S. subulata - dwarf sagittaria. As you can see a good bit of it was not so dwarf I assume due to lowish light and overcrowding. Replanted some of the smaller plantlets but have several hundred soaking in a five gallon bucket if anyone wants some for the price of shipping. May iwagumi the ten gallon used as angel grow out with some of it. Next removed a lot/most of the H. pinnatifida. Have a bit of that to roak as well. The roots on these had really dug into the holly branch and were quite extensive and difficult to remove. Pulled the H difformis, topped, and replanted some of it. And did the same with the B. caroliniana but only replanted two tops. The rest were just too ratty/split up from veggie hungry angels so added 6-8 stems from my "clippings" ten gallon. Guess we'll see how they're received by the angels. Am down to three stems of L. peruensis. You can see the one tallest stem in the pre wc pic and the lack of lower leaves. Been this way on all my ludwigia stems. They just seem to die from the gravel up. First happened to all the L. palustrus. They were wild collected so thought that might just be a seasonal thing. Any ideas folks? Lastly pulled any (couple dozen) sword leaves that were less than perfect. 

All in all, removed a large amount of the plant mass. Am wondering what effect that might have in the short term. Don't think I will change dosing qntys for now unless advised. Really like being able to see the C. wendtii bronze and enjoying the look generally. Best of all there's now a little space cleared to add a few new plants. Will know better after a little background growth. Definitely need something between the C. retrospiralis and V. nana as well as a couple of other spots...


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

So this happened this afternoon - 










I could see it coming the last two days with the pair demanding the lion's share of the tank. Mid morning today they were pecking at the glass, sections of the wood, and finally the sword leaf. Had to leave the office for a bit and when I returned they were pretty much done laying. They've been defending their spawn site and quite violently at times. Mom is the smallest of the blacks (pictured) and dad the largest. Not the ideal pair but I am interested to see what their brood would look like to help tie down their genetics. Not so much that I will pull the eggs though. And am doubtful they can make it in this tank. Have a twenty tall I need to set up for next time or another couple. Still exciting to see though.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Well the eggs did not make it the night. Really didn't expect they would. Still a part of me wishes they had even though I'm woefully ill-prepared to handle them at the moment. Also, need to be better prepared for the aggression witnessed with this breeding episode or this whole angelfish thing could turn into a very short miniseries. So need to get the twenty tall going and explore the possibilities of rehoming two of the angels. As the eight get bigger and bigger they're making the seventy five look smaller and smaller. To make room for the twenty tall would ideally require building/installing some cabinets first. That in particular is a bummer because my next build was intended to be a new "hood-like" housing for a four bulb T5HO fixture I got for Christmas. Oh, well. Life is busy. Life is good.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Congratulations! Looks like a healthy spawn, and not unusual for first-time parents to eat it. Likely the other fish in the tank are making them insecure and overly vigilant. I've had two of my black velvets pair off as well--wreaking havoc in the tank to the point that they killed one while I was away (never found the body--guessing the assassin snails & ghost shrimp made short work of it. Good luck getting the other tank set up. I'm doing the same thing this weekend--moving their current 55 gal into the bedroom so I can set up a 75 gal. Still gonna take a few weeks to get the new tank cycled, so hoping the guppy breeder box and carefully placed hornwort I've placed in the middle will separate them enough to prevent any more casualties.

Re the genetics: if yours are black velvets, they should produce 1/4 double darks (likely to be slow-growing runts) 50% black velvets, and 1/4 gold blushing. I'm amazed at how quickly the black velvets grew from dime-sized to silver dollar breeding size in less than 4 months. Whereas some of the gold blushing are still barely bigger than when I got them--from dime to nickel-sized. Wondering if the black velvets have hybrid vigor.

Good luck--I've subscribed to your mini-series.....


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Read of your recent spawning trial. Sounds similar to mine only worse. Sorry for the loss of your angelfish. Even though my black angelfish were advertised as black velvet I am quite certain they are not; at least not as Dr. Norton described. I am pretty sure they do not have the stripeless gene. Not so much now, more so when they were smaller, you could see remnants of stripes in high direct lighting. Also do not have the orange-ish hue from the gold gene. I strongly suspect they are simple double darks. Nowadaze they are not all runts. With proper husbandry they can be quite vigorous fish. They're propensity to be weaker though is partly why I have little interest to raise a spawn with my smallest black, especially as I now know she is female (she also has a noticeable amount of white on one ventral fin).

Hope your 55 move and 75 set up has gone smoothly. Cheers


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

pre wc 01.26.20









Well, no new light, no new plants...yet. So pretty similar to last update. The original swords (back left corner) have both put out inflorescense one of which I clipped, the other is now four feet long draped across the entire width of the tank with a dozen or so plantlets. This has now happened five times. I've usually clipped them but one other time I've harvested the plantlets, two of which you can see in this tank.

Angel aggression had increased quite a bit after the last public spawning. Two of the platinums I was sure would spawn as twice, 36 hours apart, their tubes were down and they were cleaning leaves. Perhaps they did and the eggs were eaten before I noticed. The female was extremely gravid. I now suspect I have one male platinum and three females and two each male and female of the blacks. In the last couple of days the aggression has tamed somewhat. But I have set up a twenty tall for the next bout. Or possibly will try to intentionally breed a pair after the cycle is more mature:










The sword was taken during yesterday's water change from the seventy five as were the wisteria stems. The sagittaria was pulled from the same tank a month ago and has been floating in a five gallon bucket since. Surprisingly still very viable and there's quite a bit more if anyone wants it. Have never planted underwater pots before. Put a plastic disk in the bottom of the terra cotta, then an inch and a half of mineralized topsoil generously sprinkled with sifted Carolina red clay soil, topped with pool filter sand. Will see how it goes. 

And finally, as if the crazy hate with now eight mature angels in the seventy five was not enough; put this guy in my ten gallon iwagumi quarantine tank:










Planted tank count now at five. Have officially fallen off the deep end.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Looking good! Having some really great growth on your plants-- wow!

That marble angel is a beauty!


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Discusluv said:


> Looking good! Having some really great growth on your plants-- wow!
> 
> That marble angel is a beauty!



Thank you Discusluv. I was really smitten by the marble angel, too. From our local Petsmart of all places. Located right next door to Home Depot were I got the terra cotta pots and slate tile yesterday. Never a good thing to buy on impulse imo. Especially a living creature. I did stare at the fish for some time before actually pulling the trigger. It looked very healthy and active. When I got it to my office, did a quick TDS reading - >900! I thought my meter must be off but it registered my tap at the expected 50ish ppm. Did a GH test - 24degrees. Quarantine tank was 8 dGH and 175ppm TDS. Drip acclimated for almost two hours to 14dGH but TDS still ~450. Bumped up the tank GH to match but that only raised the TDS to ~275. Knew I was already pushing the potential osmotic shock but balanced that thought with whatever other was still residual from the Petsmart "water" and put the fish in the tank. It seems ok today, just not so active. No struggled breathing or clamped fins. Hopefully I did not kill it. Would like to bring the GH eventually down to ~5degrees to match the 75 gallon. Think it best to give it a couple of days before I change anything tho? Guess I can decrease a degree a day? Or less and/or less frequently?


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Well it's been quite a while since updating this journal mainly due to big plans/changes not yet happening. What has been happening is angelfish spawning. I put what I suspected was a male double dark and female platinum in the twenty gallon tall I had set up as a breeding tank (see post #72 just above for pic). Had been about three weeks and was starting to doubt I had picked a pair. Then last Friday:










Have seen this many many times but still gives me a thrill. Put off the seventy five's Friday water change day to witness. Both first timers and the guy was not especially efficient - making passes all over the slate and sometimes even close to the eggs. Took a picture and dotted the eggs 100 per color. Eight colors in all - approximately 720 eggs. Came in Saturday (office tanks) to water change the seventy five and was greeted by this thanks to a pair of first timer platinums: 










Not a very big spawn but still did not want to ruin their first experience with the water change so put that off yet again. The other pairs eggs were probably a third unfertilized. Knew that guy had rotten aim. Hopefully that will improve in the future. I did do a quick bare bottom vac and five gallon water change while I had the chance. Came in Sunday afternoon to check in. To my surprise the plats were still defending their spawn in the seventy five community tank. In the twenty all the unfertilized eggs had been cleared by I suspect the female as she was still attentive and fanning away. Got a batch of bbs going, too.

Monday a.m. found a clean slate in the twenty tall so no afternoon wrigglers. From what I could tell most all of the eggs in the seventy five were still viable. But Tuesday those too were gone. Surprised they lasted that long to be honest. All tankmates did enjoy some BBS as consolation. Busy times so figured I'd just skip a weeks water change and get back on schedule Friday. Would be the first time I missed one in the ten months this tank has been going. Then of course:










Two slates on either end of the tank and they pick this branch in the middle of the tank. Went back today and the spawn looked the same as yesterday. Half expected, even hoped, they'd been eaten so I could finally do the water change. Plus I'd received a bunch of new plants I'd hoped to add and rearrange some others. These guys have other plans and are vigorously guarding their brood. The four other adult angelfish sequestered in their corner:










Hopefully soon I'll get to trim, plant, and rearrange - it's been a minute:


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Congratulations on your spawning successes! Hopefully your blacks will not eat their spawn this time. Might be hard to keep those wigglers on that branch. Will be interested to see what the resulting offspring look like--hopefully will give you a clue to the genetics of their parents. Surprised your platinums are spawning in the 75 with the other fish. Tight quarters for mating & raising a brood to be sure.

Mine are still in the 75 while I wait for the surprise fry from the lone remaining molly to be big enough not to get eaten. I suspect the minute my black pair have the 55 to themselves they'll waste no time like yours have.

Have my popcorn ready and am waiting for the next episode....


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Congratulations on your spawning successes! Hopefully your blacks will not eat their spawn this time. Might be hard to keep those wigglers on that branch. Will be interested to see what the resulting offspring look like--hopefully will give you a clue to the genetics of their parents. Surprised your platinums are spawning in the 75 with the other fish. Tight quarters for mating & raising a brood to be sure.


 
Thanks. This was the (largest) black male from before but a different black female this time (not the smallest one). So his second go and best fertility rate to date with these guys. Still didn't even get to wrigglers. Third time in a row (and in the last two weeks) eggs were gone the morning before afternoon wriggler stage. To be expected in this (community) tank, for sure. Tank half full - did allow me to finally perform a water change. Before & after:





















Removed all the background plants except the C. retrospralis. Would liked to have pulled it, too. It's footprint has spread somewhat but did not want to take a chance with it melting just to gain 5-6 square inches of tank space. So any concensus out there as to whether crypt melt comes mainly from parameter changes or just from any moving/root disturbance? Did a deep gravel vac around the sides and back so maybe almost half the floor space. Also noticed a fair amount of diatoms. Thinking mostly due to the missed water change and lessened flow from prefilter sponge clog? Overfeeding playing a role? Suggestions welcome as to what to do to alleviate, too. 


So added L. sessiliflora, R. rotundifolia, L. nummularia, and some other emmersed grown rotala I can't yet identify. The rotundifolia looks pretty rough so not sure it will make it. All "easy" plants still. To go with my low light, low CO2, and low EI dosing. Will get to higher light next. Also, removed three quarters of the H. difformis, half the V. nana, and pulled all together both E. Bleheri mother swords. Moved a previous sword baby from in front of the wood to behind and planted two of the current swordchildren.

Quite a difference in plant mass. Really noticing much more fish activity and am enjoying. Except from the angels whose aggression is not just more obvious with fewer plants but just more. Gonna have to do something about that...


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Such a beautiful tank. It is really relaxing looking. Especially the first photo before trim with the bright green foliage and shadows created by all that growth.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Thanks Dl - I also like the overgrown lush jungle look. Started to get concerned though that the shadows were blocking a little too much light as I was seeing some melt in the dwarf sagittaria toward the back (middle of the tank) just below the massive sword inflorescense. 

Now am truly alarmed as the melt is getting worse and is spreading to the Crypt. wendtii:










Help! First experience with such and haven't a clue as to what might be the cause nor what to do.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Ok, still not knowing what to do so at least went with the go to when something's awry - partial water change. About 25% or the minimum water needed removed to rinse both sponge pre-filters and the workings of both canister filters. Also replaced some of the dwarf sag but today the melt still appears to be spreading. Could this be tied to my recent diatom invasion? Either a result of or possibly stemming from the same cause? And if so any suggestions? Or other theories? Thanks...


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

I don't really have any useful input on the melt but hopefully someone will chime in with some haha! Hope it stops melting on ya!


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Ok, at this point I've resigned to pull all the dwarf sag, deep vac half of the substrate not done last week, and replant what sag I can. If not today then tomorrow. Hopefully physically removing the melt will help keep it from returning. Would gladly sacrifice the sag if I knew the crypts would fully recover. 

In other news the angels in the twenty tall spawned again last Friday. Fifteen days between spawns:










The plant works four ten hour days Mon-Thurs. I still come in Fridays (hell, I still come in most everyday). Did not get there until almost noon though and saw the eggs. Had assumed they were done and fed the tanks first thing and without much thought since it was so late. Well she kept at it for another forty five minutes but he was done. Yesterday maybe half the eggs were white and by the end of the day half were eaten. From the bottom of the slate up - indiscriminate of fertilised or not. Thinking I'll give them one more try since part of the problem this time might have been on me. If no improvement after that, will swap them out for another pair. Also got this going:










Twenty tall angel breeding tank #2. Eventually I would like to try my (gold?) marble with a platinum. Would take a generation after that but my goal is to make a white angel with black splotches. Don't think the marble is quite breeding age yet but close to being big enough to go into the seventy five. Worried though how (s)he might fare in that tank as there is already a bit of aggression. After this new tank is cycled will make some moves with the angels.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I've had bouts of crypt melt recently but have no advice since all I could do was watch it all go. In my cases, I suspect increasing light intensity was the culprit. Never had dwarf sag join the melting party, that one is usually pretty tough.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

hey BRR - Remember your recent crypt melt. Know that was painful; was painful to witness from here. And my thoughts too re the dwarf sag's toughness but that's definitely where it started. So have a couple other theories. One being a nutrient deficiency as I skipped a water change for the first time and did not continue dosing during that second week. Did test NO3 just before the last wc and it read about 5ppm. Definitely low but still some there. It's hard for me to differentiate the 5, 10, even 20ppm colors on the API nitrate test. They all look like the same color just different intensities. Which varies with light and background at least to my eyes. My two other theories are similar i.e. some kind of localized fouling. Perhaps from a dead fish the snails consumed or a rotten Barclaya bulb which I now remember was in the general vicinity but have seen no more leaves. Any of that seem a likely cause?


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Finished the installation of a 5 micron carbon block filter. Thanks @DaveKS for the suggestion. Plumbing is in an unused storeroom behind my office bathroom:










Then thru the wall directly above my 60 gallon water change barrel. Ran probably fifty or more gallons thru the hose line at the end of the plumbing (second valve) and then 10-15 gallons into the barrel to rinse the new pvc before putting in the filter. Then tested out the flow: 










To my surprise there is no noticeable loss of pressure. Seems to me the filter cartridge is seated properly and can only assume it's the right one as it came with the housing. Should I be concerned? Should I throttle down the output with the ball valve to get a little more dwell time thru the filter? Am just looking to eliminate chlorine. Test kit due to arrive Saturday.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

I would test for chlorine and lower rate if needed.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Something of a birthday post as this journal is now one year old. Woot woot. Learned so much along the way. Thanks all. Quite a difference one year later:










A little something new - had a coupla three C. retrospiralis reach the front glass and emerge eighteen inches from their mothers:










Yanked them last water change. Their roots are amazingly extensive. Pulled about eight to ten inches worth and not in the direction of their parent plants. Also found two others while water changing. To pull them will be very disruptive to the nearby plants and wood. Cannot imagine what the entire root structure looks like but would guess it spans most of the tank bottom. Crazy cool. Wonder what may have triggered the five emerging at the same time?

So for some not quite news yet - have started the woodwork on a canopy-like hood to house the four tube T5HO light I got myself for *Christmas*. Hopefully more on that soon - counting on this mention to further push me to finish it. 

And finally, just to share - this guy started out nickle body size in a ten gallon, not eating, and being bullied. He's now my biggest at eight inches tip to tip/tennis ball diameter body. Quite a stunner imo:










Well, this last year's planted tank experience has been most enjoyable. One I hope to continue for years to come. You and your tanks stay healthy out there...


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## butchblack (Oct 25, 2019)

schooldazed said:


> Something of a birthday post as this journal is now one year old. Woot woot. Learned so much along the way. Thanks all. Quite a difference one year later:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gorgeous angel. It's also good to hear how a runt can grow. How old is he? I've had my angels for 4 months or so. They started out dime to quarter size, now the smallest is 1" body, the largest over 2" body. At what age/size do they start breeding?


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

hey there bb - this guy was really not a runt, just bullied by the others. I got him mid August of last year and figure he was about two months old then. He first spawned on 01/09. Think six months to reach sexual maturity is not unusual but a little on the young side. Sounds like yours should be close to six months old now. You will probably see their tubes start to show and signs of pairing soon.


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## butchblack (Oct 25, 2019)

schooldazed said:


> hey there bb - this guy was really not a runt, just bullied by the others. I got him mid August of last year and figure he was about two months old then. He first spawned on 01/09. Think six months to reach sexual maturity is not unusual but a little on the young side. Sounds like yours should be close to six months old now. You will probably see their tubes start to show and signs of pairing soon.


Yeah, mine was the smallest of the group. I don't know that he was a runt or just the youngest I bought and was being bullied early. After I moved them into the 75g, and everyone grew, the bullying subsided, although there is still a bit of jockeying for position at feeding time. I'll start to look for tubes on the two biggest ones first.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

So a mid week update for a first due to big change. Have finally installed my christmas gift to self:










Detail shot:










So four T5HO vs two. Think I'm gonna have to crank up the CO2 to match. Not completely pleased with the look. Think the canapy needs to be lowered. Right now it's five inches above the tank so the versa tops still work. May sacrifice those and go with open top. Thinking closer to two inches above would look better. But then again not even sure I can handle the extra light as is. Still plan to make some louvered panels for the top. The increased amount of brightness is crazy. Mainly better coverage but under the back wood is still somewhat in shadow. The plants are lovin it.

WARNING: ** Pearler Alert **










And the blues in the platinum angels are definitely enhanced:










The camera/me can't capture the head and shoulder quinine patches or all the glitter. You can see some on the gill plate. And looking quite gravid here.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> So a mid week update for a first due to big change. Have finally installed my christmas gift to self:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 The canopy is steller. :surprise:And that pearly, glittery angel. Such a beauty.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Thank you Dl. Appreciate it. Unfortunately one of my black angels does not look so good:










All but certain this originated from some roughtanking with her mates. Has had these same sore spots for weeks but smaller and without the fluffy cotton-like (fungus?) stuff. One of the platinums had similar but it never got this bad and healed on its own. During last water change one of the patches came off revealing an open sore with some of the fungussy stuff remaining on the edges. The next day the same happened to the other patch. Figured/hoped she was on the mend but now a couple days later they have fungused over again. Am at the point where I feel the need to medicate. But what to use?

Water parameters are all good and constant. Temp of this tank is 78F. The fish swims, eats, and fights back as normal.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> Thank you Dl. Appreciate it. Unfortunately one of my black angels does not look so good:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, didnt see this yesterday. Answered in your other thread.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Ok, here goes. Along with the good must also include the bad and, in this case, the ugly. Yesterday, pre-water change:










Historically our local furniture industry takes the week of Christmas and the Fourth of July off. This practice originated at a time when most mills ran three shifts twenty-four seven and the week off was needed for maintenance/overhaul of machinery. That reasoning really no longer exists today but the tradition persists. I mention this because the last several weeks have been very hectic leading up to the shut down. And my tank has definitely suffered for it - skipped two water changes. Testing showed stable GH and kH, zero ammonia, but also almost no nitrates. 

Not quite as bad post-water change: 










The green dust algae was almost exclusively on the glass. A very little bit on the wood. The diatoms though have exploded. Am not exactly sure of the cause. Certainly think the new extra light contributed. Nitrates cratering? Maybe some overfeeding. Am worried the biggest factor may be my holly branch decaying. Opinions, insights, experiences would all be most appreciated. Also, best plan of action to rid an established tank of diatoms would be great.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

From what I've gathered from this site, diatoms in an established tank are usually attributed to excessive dissolved organic material? So my first idea was to do twice weekly 50% water changes and physically remove what diatoms I can along with any plant matter that is too far gone. Well, yesterday was a couple days late for the half week wc but got it done:










No before pic but the glass was still clean six days after the last cleaning. And think the diatoms may have receded a little. Decided to remove all the S. subulata and did a thorough gravel vacuuming. Was surprised that the gravel wasn't dirtier. Not even as bad as the last time I pulled all the dwarf sag and then it was healthy. Probably could have salvaged some of it but am liking the the more open floor plan for now. Still have a ways to go though before total diatom eradication.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Wow that was quite a bloom, the glass had it BAD.. quite surprised how good the plants still look! Good job getting to it and good luck with the eradication!


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Thank you, Andrew. Good luck with your flow dilemma.

Anyone have any opinions on or experience with rubbing the diatoms off of leaves? Did a little of this and looks to have helped. Didn't on the C. wendtii as the leaves seemed rather fragile especially compared to the swords. Considering doing more during my next water change to maybe speed up the the removal process.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

If I see diatoms on leaves, they're getting wiped off. Crypt wendtii is a tough plant, you should be able to rub on those leaves without damaging them. I've only ever had diatoms in pretty low light conditions, but silicates in your source water could be contributing. Even a very basic water filter should be able to remove or reduce those, might be a thought...


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Thanks so much for reassuring. I did add a five micron filter to my source water back in April. Primarily for chlorine. Guessing that would also filter out silicates? Thinking the montmorillonite clay (saf-t-sorb) has an abundance of silicates. But then again, it has not been a problem in the past. I suspect rubbing down the wood, which is getting rather soft, may have been the catalyst for this recent outbreak. Sorry to read about the house but feel you made a sound decision. I have first hand experience with overlooking myriad issues due to initial excitement when we bought our current house. Fortunately not to the point of regrets - at least not in total. But have had to put off/live with things I want and need to fix due to budget. Best of future house hunting luck to you and yours.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Been a little bit since I updated this thread. Still have some diatoms but nothing like before. Pulled all the V. nana this last water change and pulled, topped, and replanted all the L. sessiliflora and R. rotundifolia. You cannot even see those in the pic (behind the left side swords). So the tank looks a little bare:










Not sure what I will replace the nana with. And in other news; not this tank but one I've previously showed in this journal:

https://imgur.com/an0CltV

[STRIKE]That would be my first video forum post if it happens to work.[/STRIKE] Well a link anyway. The female platinum was especially po'd at the cell phone cam. And if you're link averse, at least a snapshot:










There are maybe two hundred plus little ones. Looks like all will be black velvets and will look like dad. Prodigy of these babies should yield both platinums and pinoy. They're extremely robust and eating and growing like crazy. The video is two days before the snapshot and you can see a noticeable size difference. Think I've only lost three since free swimming. Now to figure out what to possibly do with them all.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> Been a little bit since I updated this thread. Still have some diatoms but nothing like before. Pulled all the V. nana this last water change and pulled, topped, and replanted all the L. sessiliflora and R. rotundifolia. You cannot even see those in the pic (behind the left side swords). So the tank looks a little bare:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Excellent, wow! You have a lot of babies !


Many will love to have these fish. Are you on Facebook? If so, locate the nearest Aquarium Society group on Facebook. There are plenty of people that will buy them. Facebook doesn't allow direct sales, so you need to inquire about "re-homing" fish among local aquarium society members. These people are often very good with fish as well so will be giving good homes to them.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Discusluv said:


> Excellent, wow! You have a lot of babies !
> 
> 
> Many will love to have these fish. Are you on Facebook? If so, locate the nearest Aquarium Society group on Facebook. There are plenty of people that will buy them. Facebook doesn't allow direct sales, so you need to inquire about "re-homing" fish among local aquarium society members. These people are often very good with fish as well so will be giving good homes to them.



Thank you. Yes, indeed. Lots of babies. I am on Facebook but not active. I will check into it. Thanks for the suggestion. At what point did you separate your ram youngins from their parents? I've had a Craigslist 55 gallon for years that I hope holds water. Wanting to use for their next home.


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## stlhokie (Aug 21, 2018)

Another Charlotte planted tank enthusiast! Tank is looking really good, especially impressed with how well the anubias is doing.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> Thank you. Yes, indeed. Lots of babies. I am on Facebook but not active. I will check into it. Thanks for the suggestion. At what point did you separate your ram youngins from their parents? I've had a Craigslist 55 gallon for years that I hope holds water. Wanting to use for their next home.


I usually take the male out after 2 weeks. But, I think Angels are much better at not eating their young than Rams. Black Rams especially- if they are not killing the female they are thinking about eating their young. :|


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

stlhokie said:


> Another Charlotte planted tank enthusiast! Tank is looking really good, especially impressed with how well the anubias is doing.



Well hello there neighbor. Thanks for the compliment. The anubias pearling pic above you might be referring to was taken just as I upgraded the light from a two tube fixture to four. Since then I'm afraid the diatoms and even some green spot algae have taken hold. Working that out but may need to lower them to resolve the issue fully. 



Do you know of any local aquarium societies Discusluv mentioned? From what I've discovered so far, Charlotte has what looks to be a marine club. Raleigh has one that looks pretty active with regular auctions. At least pre-Covid but none scheduled. Cheers




Discusluv said:


> I usually take the male out after 2 weeks. But, I think Angels are much better at not eating their young than Rams. Black Rams especially- if they are not killing the female they are thinking about eating their young. :|



Funny, my female platinum has been picking on the much larger black male and he seems rather indifferent to it. That has mostly subsided and he is healing. You can still see the section of missing caudal fin in the above snapshot and video. And those lighter areas are roughed up/missing scales. Only early on post-free swimming was it really intentionally damaging. Mostly just nudging away. I do think I'm getting close to having to move the fry. No water quality issues yet but despite their small size, gotta think their shear numbers will change that quickly in a twenty tall. All in all these two have been great parents and super fun to watch. Thanks as always for your input.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Near tragedy averted. My tap has 1.1 GH and kH and tds ~50. I "remineralize" basically for Ca, Mg, and some K in a sixty gallon barrel which brings GH to 5 and bumps kH a tad. Use MgSO4, CaSO4, K2SO4, and KHCO3. Used to also use CaCo3 when I bumped kH a little more. Well already long story hopefully shorter, mistakenly used the calcium carbonate instead of the calcium sulfate the other day. Have hardly done any testing for some time as the weighed salts have made for very consistent parameters. Planned to do a water change this evening so just checked the temperature of the barrel. The pump motor alone usually brings the water to temp. The water looked a little cloudy and was concerned there might be some kind of bloom. The carbonate/sulfate mess up then dawned on me and testing confirmed. So likely no water change tonight but phew.


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## stlhokie (Aug 21, 2018)

schooldazed said:


> Do you know of any local aquarium societies Discusluv mentioned? From what I've discovered so far, Charlotte has what looks to be a marine club. Raleigh has one that looks pretty active with regular auctions. At least pre-Covid but none scheduled. Cheers


The only one I know of is the Charlotte Area Aquatic Society (CAAS). They have a Facebook group with 2000+ members and I believe they also have occasional meetups (at least they did pre-covid). I've not personally been to any of them, as I just found out about the group just as quarantine began. I know that they have had trade shows in the past for both FW and SW.

Also, I haven't read through all 8 pages, but I did notice you were asking about fish stores in the area earlier in the thread. My personal favorite is Upscale Aquatics in Huntersville. They typically have the largest plant selection and occasionally have some more rare plants that you won't find in you everyday pet store. (I saw some Godzilla Buce in there the other day). The folks there are also very friendly and knowledgeable, and the fish selection is huge.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

stlhokie said:


> The only one I know of is the Charlotte Area Aquatic Society (CAAS). They have a Facebook group with 2000+ members and I believe they also have occasional meetups (at least they did pre-covid). I've not personally been to any of them, as I just found out about the group just as quarantine began. I know that they have had trade shows in the past for both FW and SW.
> 
> Also, I haven't read through all 8 pages, but I did notice you were asking about fish stores in the area earlier in the thread. My personal favorite is Upscale Aquatics in Huntersville. They typically have the largest plant selection and occasionally have some more rare plants that you won't find in you everyday pet store. (I saw some Godzilla Buce in there the other day). The folks there are also very friendly and knowledgeable, and the fish selection is huge.



Thank you very much for that info. Checked out their website. It appears to have less activity of late but most likely Covid related like everything else. Will be joining soon. 



And also like Upscale Aquatics. About an hour for me to get there but have been several times. Have only purchased shrimp there once which was a good experience. The other times just browsing. Will try to get there again soon and take a harder look at their plants. Thanks for that suggestion as well.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Today's FTS looks about the same as two weeks ago other than the sword inflorescence. But I can attest, and am thankful to say, the diatom issue is pretty much resolved:










In other news: The angel fry from last weeks episode really started nipping at mom and especially dad so had to move the parents back to the seventy five. Set up a 55 gallon for the brood's next grow out stage:










Was able to get a count when I moved them - 173. Lost one in the move I assume due to poor net-work by me. Also culled one that was bent, smaller, and a poor swimmer not competing well for food. But the rest look like perfect little angels:










Right after I moved the fry to the 55, I started cleaning the twenty tall used as a spawning tank. Looked like my female gold marble and male platinum were close. Alas, too late:










This was Monday and they are now wigglers. They moved them once already from one sword leaf to another. They are amazing at sharing guard duties. Both angelfish pairs now stay on opposite sides of the tank (as can be seen in the shot above) and occasionally meet in the middle with fin flaring and sparring. The rummy nose and cherry barbs lurk below the spawn and are the main threat imo. Usually just one goes off to joust while the other tends the nest. Still am amazed they have survived this long. May siphon out a few. Can't imagine they can last as free swimmers. Cool to watch for now.

And finally fwiw, a shot of my "fish room" aka my office from my desk chair:


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

The gold marble female and male platinum spawn have made it to free swimming in this tank:










Only about two dozen or so but still quite amazed. May not last long but the parents are unbelievably actively protecting them. Have fed the tank pretty heavily in hopes that may help quell the appetites of the others but gotta think fry are pretty alluring taste-wise. If they grow like the last batch, think it will only be a couple of days before only the other angels are a threat and they've been kept away pretty effectively thus far. Fingers crossed.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Wow! Look at all that fry! Thats amazing. 
Typically my dark Rams will have about 100-150 fry go free-swimming. But, only about 75 will survive to 1.5-2 months. Im not sure why-- well, beyond that black genes are weaker. I do keep tanks clean and they get fresh hatched BBS daily. The hybrids, on the other hand, are faring a bit better - I have about 100 still. 

But 175! Wow!

I am so envious of your fish-room. Its so clean and tidy as well.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Yesterday pre water change:










I like this "jungle" look quite a bit. Looks very lush and the shadows give nice contrast in person. The biggest downfall of this look is I can't see the fish. There are thirty five fish other than the one angel you can easily see above. Will hopefully find the time in the next couple of weeks to do a big thinning. Just about every plant needs to be addressed. Have let the sword daughters continue to grow so they can soon replace their swordparents. The A. nana petite clumps on the branches have grown to the point where their shadows inhibit too much potential growing space so need to do something there. You may can see two sprigs of C. retrospiralis growing against the front glass. They gotta go along with half a dozen others that have similarly popped up usually after running into the glass. May even do some thinning of the C. wendtii. Again, hopefully coming to a forum post soonby.

A real quick week old shot of black angel fry:










Ok, another:










Nickle plus/pushing quarter body size. They should continue to get darker as they grow and eventually be totally black. Am pleased they are all very similarly sized and healthy. Eating like pigs - they splash water as I walk by the tank as they scurry to the surface and the noise when they're fed is hilarious. Only the occasional BBS if leftover... (oops) - mostly flake. Mix in freeze dried brine shrimp and frozen blood worms now and again. They're eating a lot of flake though. To the point were the expense is noticeable. Anybody want some???

Oh, and one last thing:










Can't make out the fry so good in this pic. I can see that some fry are a fair amount darker than others. Hoping enough will get big enough to shed some light on their genetics and especially the genetics of their marble mum.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Finally got around to doing some meaningful trimming:










Everything except the C. wendtii got trimmed or thinned or both. Pulled the left side facing half of the C. retrospiralis. Reminded me of pulling electrical wires. Some of those roots were two feet long. And the sword roots where also quite impressive as was the overall mass of the three plants out of water. Did plant three daughters in their place. Didn't do much on the A. nana petite but the largest clump unintentionally unattached from the holly branch. About a quarter of the plant was already somewhat separated from the rest so split that off and put it on the left hand side notch of the branch. The original part of the rhyzome was branchlike itself - almost woody which was new to me and interesting to see. 

Somewhat missing the jungle look but am enjoying the fish more and think it'll look better as it grows out. And do now have some room for a few more species if I can ever get around to doing something there. Suggestions?


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

The tank as it looks today:










Has definitely filled in over the last month. Had trimmed the R. rotundifolia and L. sessiliflora once each in the meantime. The C. wendtii though has gone bonkers. Seems like it reached a critical mass and just exploded. Would love some advice on how to thin. Would like to keep it in five "clumps" similar to how they're laid out now but just smaller. Don't know if it's better to pull it all and try to gather some smaller plants into bunches and replant or actually trim the largest leaves. Fear if I trim, will have large groups of "stumps" and roots for a while. Is the "crypt melt" phenomenon more the result of disturbing the roots? or from change in water params? or other? Would love to get some opinions, theories, experiences, insights regarding before messing with them.


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## Tbakes (Mar 16, 2011)

I’ve had good success by cutting straight down into the root mass using straight scissors to divide off a smaller plant. Then pulling the section up carefully and slowly trying not to pull up plumes of soil. 

Then usually add a chunk of root tab to the plant that remains. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Thanks for chiming in @Tbakes. Had not considered this technique but will now. Possibly combined with trimming some of the longest leaves on the remaining clump may give the result I'm looking for with minimal disturbance to the plant. And having the pulled bit intact to try to use elsewhere is also a plus.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> The tank as it looks today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is this tank low-tech? Its amazing!:surprise:

PS How are the Angels doing?


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Discusluv said:


> Is this tank low-tech? Its amazing!:surprise:
> 
> PS How are the Angels doing?



Well how do Dl - thank you for the compliment. I call this tank medium tech. I do dose CO2 but at less than two bubbles per second and get about a .5-.6 pH drop. 



And angels are doing well. Was able to "rehome" all the 178 black ones via two relatively local facebook groups. Thank you very much for that suggestion. The small "fees" covered the not inconsequential cost to rear them with enough left over to set up another seventy five (please don't tell my wife). The marble/platinum fry pictured above are now nickle body size...












...and eating strictly (way too much) flake. 82 marbles and 81 silvers. Some of the marbles look to have a fair amount of blue in them already so perhaps the marble mum is het for blue. Too small to tell for sure. Will offer them up probably in a couple of weeks. Certainly before they get as big as the black ones did. Have been moving the adults around a bit to try to ease some bickering. Have what I think are a pair of platinums in a twenty tall breeding tank per the suggestion of one of the buyers of the black fry. They do not look very interested yet but will see. Cheers


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

schooldazed said:


> Well how do Dl - thank you for the compliment. I call this tank medium tech. I do dose CO2 but at less than two bubbles per second and get about a .5-.6 pH drop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Oh my goodness! Those little cuties-- you have a mess of them- lol! 

I know, breeding and selling is not very lucrative. Its more of a great experience than a good investment :wink2:


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Discusluv said:


> Oh my goodness! Those little cuties-- you have a mess of them- lol!
> 
> I know, breeding and selling is not very lucrative. Its more of a great experience than a good investment :wink2:



Yeah, no plans to quit my day job, unfortunately. Hadn't intended to do it again until these two batches reach breeding age. Kept eight of the blacks and will probably keep four each of the marble and silvers. Have a specific project in mind to try to breed true "panda" angels - white with black splotches - but that will take a couple of generations to get right. Has been a lot of fun as you said.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Finally got around to thinning half/one side of the C. wendtii. Attempted to slice one of the three clumps in place and pull just half of that clump. The roots were so long and intertwined I couldn't help but pretty much disturb/pull the whole clump. So ended up with three large clumps -










- and a good many "loose singles"

Replanted one of the "halves", a half dozen or so loose singles, and what appeared to be one large plant. Suspect the grouping of singles will best give me the bushy look I prefer but gonna take some time. This was eightteen months of growth afterall. Will probably trim the longest leaves off of the other two clumps after some more new growth appears. Thinking I may also trim the long leaves off of at least one of the clumps on the left side and leave the roots undisturbed to see how that grows in. Also pulled, topped, replanted the H. difformis, right side R. rotundifolia, L. cardinalis and trimmed the right side of the H. tripartita. This allowed for a pretty deep gravel vacuuming of the right side of the tank. Was concerned the amount of substrate disurbance might spike ammonia but testing proved not so. At least this time anyway.

So before -










and after - 










Is taking some getting used to but do like that I can see more of the holly branch and that sword on the right.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Well it's been a minute but this tank is still going. Finally got around to reworking the right side. So here's a before shot -actually three weeks before):










And after:










The reason I put off this overhaul for so long is I've intended to use some of the plants from here in another seventy five. Just taken me a lot longer than anticipated to get it up and running. Here's a sneak preview with three of the plants I pulled from here. Will only be using one of the crypts but also gives a sense of how big these guys got. So here's a little teaser:










More on that in another journal...


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