# New 20g Planted Tank (Epiphytes only) - 11/17/20 - FTS and Videos



## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So does anyone have any good ideas for this tank stocking wise? A priority is to have a type of fish that might explore in the cave(s) a bit - like a bottom oriented fish, any ideas there?


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Corydoras. There are plenty of species of Corydoras out there to keep you busy researching for a while.

They prefer sandy soft substrates, will root around keeping it tidy, will explore the Caves. Research the species you want though, pH, temperature will determine which species.

Nice looking tank, but wow, is that sand bright. My glasses transitioned while looking at it. 

Gary


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Cool looking setup. The sand will most likely darken a bit once the tank is established although personally I like the whitish sand, I do the commercial sand myself. Corys are aewsome little fish and really keep the mulm from building up and in the filter. There are also some of the smaller cichlids that like establishing cave homes. All kinds of options.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Thanks for the input guys! Right well I went through with the re-scape of the tank yesterday! Really liking the change, I think the whole thing is much more attractive now. Looking forward to seeing it a bit more matured. Thinking about planting a bit more Buce plants and some little things here and there, arranging some small rocks on the border of the main rock structures. Anyway - really happy with the improvement - hope you all like it too, I think its much more aesthetic!

I changed out the substrate for just ADA Playa sand with a wee bit of scapers lava mulch under the lava rock structures I built to raise them a bit and provide better flow and drainage. I like this way better than my peppering of stem plants with aqua soils and that [censored][censored][censored][censored]e bright white gravel I had in the back of the tank!

Really liking the skimmer out-flow now, finally understand how to set them up - they make it soooo clean on the surface!

Anyway - here are some pictures of the process (holy [censored][censored][censored][censored] a wet shop-vac makes such a process soooo much better!)


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## Ventchur (Apr 29, 2018)

Huge improvement on the scape, you just can't beat ADA la plata sand.. What % you running the light at?

Congrats.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Ventchur said:


> Huge improvement on the scape, you just can't beat ADA la plata sand.. What % you running the light at?
> 
> Congrats.


Yep, I agree and it's nice to see another epiphytes only scape on the forum.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Ventchur said:


> Huge improvement on the scape, you just can't beat ADA la plata sand.. What % you running the light at?
> 
> Congrats.


Thanks! Yeah, the sand is much better! Really liking the rock arrangement now that I pushed them a lot closer together so it is 1 mound if you will, the cave effect is nicer now too - the large wood with contrasting color is also a lot better than the various small dark branches I had previously. 

The lights... Well I am still playing with them but for some days now I have them peaking a bit high. 

The first hour and last hour are on slow start/finish and the main period is about 7 hours. The main period in the middle has a peak of 90% for red 80% green and 70% white (blues always being more like 15-20%). I like the colors better this way but haven't looked into what is best for the plants. The start up for sunrise is a bit heavy on the green and red to give a kind of yellow sunrise effect and then the sunset ends up going heavy in the reds and blues for a purple tinged sunset then eventually into 5% blue for the night light effect. I really enjoy being able to customize the light like this! Was pretty cheap actually, hopefully it holds up... the only thing annoying with it is that the powersupply makes a bit of a high pitched hum.



Asteroid said:


> Yep, I agree and it's nice to see another epiphytes only scape on the forum.


Thanks! I suppose most people mix in some stem/root plants at least in the back, I decided against it - I think epiphytes work so well with the lava island thing my scape has going! Plus in many ways it is more simple (cleaning and possibly tear-down for moving or something).

I'll have to have a look around for other epiphyte only (or heavy) journals on here!


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Looking really good- The rescape was a solid move, very nice! I'll be looking forward to watching this progress!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Grobbins48 said:


> Looking really good- The rescape was a solid move, very nice! I'll be looking forward to watching this progress!


Thanks! Yeah I don't regret it one bit! Was certainly worth the 4 hours it took me to do it, the original scape was just poorly executed but at least my rock constructions can hold up to a lot of handling and so I just popped em back in after I cleaned off the white gravel and sand from them and went at it


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

BTW How do you like the Chihiros WRGB Light? Reason I ask is just started up a 60cm and might change my light. I have a an older Chihiros A that I was using on a nano and it still running fine 3 years later. That one was only manually dimmable, so looking for something with better color and programmable.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> BTW How do you like the Chihiros WRGB Light? Reason I ask is just started up a 60cm and might change my light. I have a an older Chihiros A that I was using on a nano and it still running fine 3 years later. That one was only manually dimmable, so looking for something with better color and programmable.


I quite like it, for the price I think it is probably pretty hard to beat, though I guess the top brands are better but then again the pricing premium for them is inflated a bit much... so far the most overt cheapo aspect I notice with this light is the powersupply makes that electronic "buzzing" and I suppose the brand name ones supply better ones (though I don't directly know). 

The app is definitely also not the most intuitive one but it works, I've managed to be able to program a nice day cycle, can certainly tinker with these so that is fun. That bluetooth unit was also quite affordable as well!

I am generally quite happy with the light, I think it actually has grown on me a bit! I couldn't imagine having a non programmable light now haha! 

BTW I plan to have it hanging soon (not a huge fan of the aquarium mount brakets) - I'll let ya all know how that goes!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

andrewss said:


> I quite like it, for the price I think it is probably pretty hard to beat, though I guess the top brands are better but then again the pricing premium for them is inflated a bit much... so far the most overt cheapo aspect I notice with this light is the powersupply makes that electronic "buzzing" and I suppose the brand name ones supply better ones (though I don't directly know).
> 
> The app is definitely also not the most intuitive one but it works, I've managed to be able to program a nice day cycle, can certainly tinker with these so that is fun. That bluetooth unit was also quite affordable as well!
> 
> ...


Thanks for all that detailed info on the light, appreciate it. I'm definitely going to consider and look at a few others, although as you mentioned not much at that price point and don't know if I want to spend three times as much for one of the other ones that has good aesthetics. 

I considered hanging my fixture, I do like that look over a rimless. I guess I settled for a semi-hanging style with my light bridge. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

I will be doing that over the weekend! I have been busy in the workshop with my shelving system for the wall around the aquarium - these shelves will be more kitchen storage and a few window plant perches, in my flat we don't have a living room and the kitchen is relatively larges so the couch and aquarium serve as the living room part of the kitchen, quite a mixed up room but I am liking it!

The light will hang from underneath one of the shelves - hopefully I can make it look good, also gonna have to execute perfectly the mounting for the shelves that will be directly above the tank because they will be 100% wall mounted with no legs.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

A little update, well actually a kind of big step (wasn't cheap haha) - decided to go with co2 - plan to go with about a 20mg target for co2, anyway here is a shot of the order... I kinda pieced together what I thought comprises a good complete set (minus a co2 bottle) - did I miss anything? Also I plan to keep the tank in the corner in the room behind the other tank stand and will need about 8-9ft of hose to lead to the diffusor for my 20 gallon, is that ok? From what I understood that ought to be ok, though I have no experience with co2 systems!

ps, pardon the german on the order but I think the photos explain it... Went for a bit of a fancy dual regulator and decided to go with a stainless diffusor - thought also a constant test glass bit would be ok but also thought a bubble counter is also good for immediate setup? Do you think that's overkill, could return something eventually maybe if need be.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

I ordered a 2kg reuseable co2 bottle on ebay here today, hopefully they can still send such things because due to Covid19 delivery is supposed to be contactless however co2 bottles are regulated for signature and so on - I emailed the vendor to check what he thought about it!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So today I got all the co2 goodies in the mail that I believe I need for the install! I plan to hide the bottle about 7 feet away from the tank and run the needed amount of co2 line to the tank from it. I will try to get that set up tomorrow and hope I don't run into any problems (first time setting one up).

I was able to manage getting one of my pipe shelving units hung the other day and then today I hung my light from the bottom board - lookin nice and clean compared to the bulky brackets on the side of the tank!

So tomorrow and the next days I will get the other shelving unit hung next to the tank, install the co2 (at least try haha) - then fabricate a plexiglas backing that can nicely mount my filter in/outflows. I am thinking about going with a frosted background now instead of black - though I may paint a bit of black onto the bits that are in the cave area since the rocks and plants would eliminate seeing the border of black to frosted.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Hey everyone so I got the co2 system installed and it seems to be working but I have a few concerns about it, I had actually been soaking the diffusor (had it already in the tank) for about 36 hours I think, anyway initially the bubbles seemed large and not so plenty but then I turned up the working pressure from 1.4 or 5 to 1.75 or 1.80 ish. This seemed to help a lot but anyway I dunno if it is still not soooo many bubbles coming from the diffusor! The test still is very blue anyway.. Maybe some of you have input for me? Do I need to reposition the diffusor or get more flow to it to get the bubbles to go in the water better? Or just wait it out a bit? Any idea if I ought to turn up the working pressure to get more flow, could it be a matter of needing more vco2 output in general? Anyway thanks for any advice guys! I'm a total co2 noobie! 

The first video shows it at 1.5 bar, the second video at 1.75-80 or so. 

https://youtu.be/qcbQD0PEXE0

https://youtu.be/k78fpHyLU48


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

If you position the diffuser so the stream of bubbles gets pushed around by the filter return it will help alot with diffusion. So you could put it under the return so the bubbles end up in front of it or if your flow is strong enough put the diffuser on the right side wall and the return on the left side wall (or vice versa) and the flow will disrupt, move the co2 bubbles around. 

Also the bubble flow isn't that important you have to go by the drop checker and PH drop to see if you have adequate co2.

Like this:


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

I echo what @Asteroid is saying. When adding CO2 to my 40 breeder it took some trial and error to see what would flow the bubbles around the tank the best. Just keep and eye on things, try a few spots, and you will find what works!

FWIW, I have positioned diffusers all over the tank in the past- so there is not on perfect answer- just what works for your tank.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> If you position the diffuser so the stream of bubbles gets pushed around by the filter return it will help alot with diffusion. So you could put it under the return so the bubbles end up in front of it or if your flow is strong enough put the diffuser on the right side wall and the return on the left side wall (or vice versa) and the flow will disrupt, move the co2 bubbles around.
> 
> Also the bubble flow isn't that important you have to go by the drop checker and PH drop to see if you have adequate co2.
> 
> Like this:


Thanks for the detailed response, I might try to figure something out but I don't think I can just put it on the other side of the tank and get much difference, this JBL E402 filter is a bit on the weak side honestly.



Grobbins48 said:


> I echo what @Asteroid is saying. When adding CO2 to my 40 breeder it took some trial and error to see what would flow the bubbles around the tank the best. Just keep and eye on things, try a few spots, and you will find what works!
> 
> FWIW, I have positioned diffusers all over the tank in the past- so there is not on perfect answer- just what works for your tank.


Yeah, a bit of trial and error is what it will need huh!


Would you all however say that I would eliminate the need to fumble around with the ceramic diffusor by just getting an inline diffusor - then the co2 would be shot out of the filter output, the ideal situation, no?

I have also however been thinking that maybe the tank needs a bit more flow, I might consider getting a current maker or something, not sure yet.

Thanks for the input!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Yes you could always go inline. All methods (inline, intank, reactor) work it's just preference, but there shouldn't be any reason not to have the intank one work especially on a 2-foot tank. For now if you just move the diffuser to the side wall so it ends up in front of the return it should work. The filter should have enough to disrupt the bubbles from the other side if you decide to try that. My tank is 3 feet wide and my Eheim 2213 reaches the other side, not strongly but enough to break up the stream. 

I did have a power head in my tank for a while to break up the bubbles, but took it out and I haven't seen any difference.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

I am fairly certain the Eheim 2213 is a decent bit more powerful than my JBL E402, anyway I will see about moving it about, however I am thinking maybe just an inline diffusor makes sense because then I have one less thing in the tank... Anyway I will see!


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## Muscleguy (Feb 16, 2020)

In terms of cave loving bottom fish I would recommend loaches. Bearing in mind they are happier in small groups. Fish like the Yo-Yo loach for eg would love those caves. Having somewhere they know can they can retreat to actually means you see them out more often. They are also fascinating fish. They remind me of dogs always sniffing about. 

I have dwarf chain loaches at the moment (Botia sidthimunki) and they are fab in my opinion. Though in your setup they will likely end up in your tubing. When mine were smaller at least one was usually in the fluval outlet which has a 180 bend followed by a 90 degree. They would go in there and 'clean' the inside for me. 

But the larger ones like Yo-Yo's and their relatives would be too big for that. BTW they are so called because the markings on their sides looks like Yo Yo. Botia lohachata in formality. 

My dwarfs live under the foot of an old wooden arch (other end eaten by the ancistrus). It's concave and has at least two entrances. The ancistrus kept trying to take it over by burrowing under it but she is too big and it would just fall in. I got sick of continually having to rescape because of it. So I took the remains of the other end at stuck it in the gravel to give them a wooden floor. Problem fixed.


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## SueD (Nov 20, 2010)

I had 3 peacock gudgeons that also seemed to like to explore "cave" structures. I had a coconut shell one would go in and out of frequently. There was also a piece of driftwood that had a small arch shaped bottom. The other 2 were in and out of there a lot.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> Yes you could always go inline. All methods (inline, intank, reactor) work it's just preference, but there shouldn't be any reason not to have the intank one work especially on a 2-foot tank. For now if you just move the diffuser to the side wall so it ends up in front of the return it should work. The filter should have enough to disrupt the bubbles from the other side if you decide to try that. My tank is 3 feet wide and my Eheim 2213 reaches the other side, not strongly but enough to break up the stream.
> 
> I did have a power head in my tank for a while to break up the bubbles, but took it out and I haven't seen any difference.


Well I moved things around and yeah it seems to be enough flow with the diffusor moved to the other side of the tank, however I didn't try it today, I would rather the diffusor be closer to the back wall for visual reasons! I think I will actually be replacing it for an in-line.... seems like a better solution to me for now!



Muscleguy said:


> In terms of cave loving bottom fish I would recommend loaches. Bearing in mind they are happier in small groups. Fish like the Yo-Yo loach for eg would love those caves. Having somewhere they know can they can retreat to actually means you see them out more often. They are also fascinating fish. They remind me of dogs always sniffing about.
> 
> I have dwarf chain loaches at the moment (Botia sidthimunki) and they are fab in my opinion. Though in your setup they will likely end up in your tubing. When mine were smaller at least one was usually in the fluval outlet which has a 180 bend followed by a 90 degree. They would go in there and 'clean' the inside for me.
> 
> ...


Hey! I looked up those dwarf loaches, pretty cool fish - though I'm not so sure if I want to invest in them (really quite expensive). Plus I think I have decided to look at this tank like a "big" nano tank. Basically I am worried they might look a bit too big for the scale of everything in the tank. Though I might have to keep them in mind, might have to look up some videos of them on youtube!



SueD said:


> I had 3 peacock gudgeons that also seemed to like to explore "cave" structures. I had a coconut shell one would go in and out of frequently. There was also a piece of driftwood that had a small arch shaped bottom. The other 2 were in and out of there a lot.


I kept a pair of those fish in my old 35 gallon tank but to be honest I wasn't a huge fan of that fish, maybe they look better really well fed but the colors with that form didn't suite me. But you're very right, a goby like fish would be a great idea but I don't think I will go with one.



So here is another boring co2 video but this shows the new placement with a bit more current (I cleaned out some muck my filter collected, especially in the first tank it was on for 2 weeks that was a kind of dirty plant quarantine / temporary storage tank thing) - also some photos of the plants getting some co2 bubbles! Finally a photo of the tester finally turned a shade of green!

The side of the tank with the diffusor is certainly getting much more bubble build up, I am very curious what this all means for co2 levels throughout the whole tank albeit it quite small tank... maybe the inline diffusor will help this a bit? I am also still considering throwing in another pump/powerhead thing to help circulation a bit... maybe!


Thanks again for all the input everyone!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

That looks good from the video. You should get good results that way. Also the less surface agitation you have the gas off you'll have and the quicker the co2 will get up to par. Looks like your surface agitation is minimal. Mine is the same way, in fact even though I don't turn my co2 off at night my drop checker is still light green in the morning. If you don't like the aesthetics of the in-tank you can't certainly go inline. you can also get a glass in-tank to match the drop checker. 

If your into the aquascaping part of the hobby your right about scale. Large groups of smaller fish will make the tank look more dramatic and larger.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Thanks for watching and giving input! The drop checker seemed a nice green all day today, so far I have it only turning on when the lights kick on but maybe I will consider to start the co2 a little bit earlier.

I plan to actually get an inline on it tomorrow and see how that is.

I definitely do want things to look in scale and "aquascaped" so I think I will stick with more or less nano style fishes.


I do want to keep it rimless so I need to be careful about jumpers but I think so far my list of ideas are safe for rimless, thus far my ideas are:

-A smaller cory for the bottom: (but still possibly considering a small loach or 

Either:

Corydoras xinguensis
Corydoras atropersonatus
or likely:
Corydoras Habrosus (since they are the smallest of these 3)


-A low to mid ground roaming fish:

Dario Dario

^ is the fish I tend to gravitate towards, many say just go for an Apisto pair but I think they will be too large for this tank (scale wise at least). Darios seem promising and supposedly a shop a few hours away from Berlin has confirmed females as well so I could get a small group. Any other ideas here? I know they are picky eaters but otherwise fairly easy (besides male aggression).


-Shoaling/Schooling fish for the mid to high areas:

Boraras brigittae 

^ certainly are amazing small fish. I have kept them before as well.

Paracheirodon innesi 

^ very common but for good reason I think, also think the blue and red colors would be great for my scape.

*Does anyone have any other ideas for the schooling fish? I still maybe consider the Ember Tetra but I am not so sure about their orange color in this tank. Hard to say what to go with!



Any ideas about stocking would be appreciated! Oh and of course I will get a few amanos for the tank and maybe even some Neocaridinas (depending on what fish I eventually get).


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So I swapped out the diffusor for an inline one and decided to do another video trying to show it. It seems better as far as not having any big bubbles that go straight to the surface streaming out of the filter, seems a bit odd right now that the bubble counter is a lot slowwwwwwer now that the diffusors are swapped. I am curious if the diffusor is the cause then, and how that is explained. Working pressure of the regulator is at about 1.85-.90 or so so I think that is ok, thats barely higher than it was earlier (was tinkering a bit after the swap). Anyway the bubbles are pretty big so maybe that is why so far I think my checker is still green - and honestly it looks like a decent amount of small bubbles are coming out the the filter now. I guess I just don't know where to reference besides the checker being the right color, often times youtuber videos with co2 tanks look like they have tonnnnnnns of bubbles but maybe thats the difference between a green 20mg and a 30mg test.

I am still really stumped on what to stock the tank with! Not gonna be an easy decision! Don't know how to decide haha!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Besides the drop checker a standard way to measure is the ph drop. So you want to take some tank water and let it degas for a day or so and test the ph. Then test your ph with the co2 running for a few hours into the cycle. Generally your looking for a 1.0 drop. So if your degassed ph is 7.5, your aim should be 6.5. This usually indicates approx. 30 ppm and is a good amount for plants and fish in most setups. 

As far as fish, that's really a personal thing. I usually go with what's available locally so I went with Embers. They have been extremely hardy. I haven't lost any since I started the tank, but you have to like orange. I think in most scapes one big school looks better than a variety of fish. I also have some Black Neons, which I really like, but they are actually too big for my tank scale wise.


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## Hujeta (Jan 26, 2020)

Tank looks great! Definitely following progress. When I recently installed my co2 kit it was recommended different working pressure depending on your diffuser, where the inline was rated the highest (I have that too).

Check your manual, I beleive for co2arts they recommended at least 30 psi for inline diffusion.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> Besides the drop checker a standard way to measure is the ph drop. So you want to take some tank water and let it degas for a day or so and test the ph. Then test your ph with the co2 running for a few hours into the cycle. Generally your looking for a 1.0 drop. So if your degassed ph is 7.5, your aim should be 6.5. This usually indicates approx. 30 ppm and is a good amount for plants and fish in most setups.
> 
> As far as fish, that's really a personal thing. I usually go with what's available locally so I went with Embers. They have been extremely hardy. I haven't lost any since I started the tank, but you have to like orange. I think in most scapes one big school looks better than a variety of fish. I also have some Black Neons, which I really like, but they are actually too big for my tank scale wise.


Hi, right that's what I should double check to help me feel more confident - anyway I ordered a PH test kit.

I decided to order some ADA soft water as well and give that a try, wonder if it works!

Indeed it is, yeah you're right keeping it more simple without tons of different fish is best.



Hujeta said:


> Tank looks great! Definitely following progress. When I recently installed my co2 kit it was recommended different working pressure depending on your diffuser, where the inline was rated the highest (I have that too).
> 
> Check your manual, I beleive for co2arts they recommended at least 30 psi for inline diffusion.


Thanks a lot! Thankfully my regulator is a nice double chambered one with adjustable working pressure so I might continue to play around but I understand right at about 2 bar (~30psi) is where I should be with this diffusor. The only thing confusing me is that the bubbles from my bubble counter seem SO much slower now but also a lot bigger I would say. 




As for stocking I think I had a break through last night... haha, very big decision 

I think I will go for a ~15 group of Green Neons - I think the slightly smaller size and blue/green stripe should look cool with the darkness of the lava rocks and so on. 

I still can't decide about the other fish for the bottom side of the tank.


Right now I am thinking about the following options:

-A small group of Dario Dario (ideally 3 females, 2 males?)

-A small group of a Pygmy Sunfish sort (likely elassoma okefenokee? likely the same kind of group size like Dario Dario)

-A pair of Apistogrammas (not so into it because I find they are all probably too big for scale here)

-6 to 8 or so of the Cory Habrosus


Besides that maybe eventually a few Otos... not sure yet, probably those later on.

Also with my stocking plans I can go with shrimps so I will definitely being getting amanos, and possibly a type of Neocaridinas.


I will be ordering this weekend, the online shops start shipping on Monday, no use ordering now as they only ship live fish Monday-Thursday here - so I have a bit of extra time to think it over. Also Dario-Dario and Pygmy Sunfish are sometime able to be found locally from hobby breeders, as well as Apistos - so I can consider that for them at least!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Well I have a bit of a CO2 update here, I think I found my problem, the bolt that connected the bit that you push the co2 hose onto on the end of my regulator was actually really quite loose, I realized that when I was taking off the bubble counter, thinking that was the problem. Now I think it is more likely that it was those threads being loose! I am running it now with the bubble counter off, and anyway I will show you in the youtube video a comparison of the settings after that swap; the amount of co2 coming out was crazy after the swap, then I dialed back the co2 adjuster A LOT to get the current setting, which looks like quite a bit more than was coming out before the supposed leak fix - anyway the drop-checker after about 3 hours now looks a much more pure green tone than previous (quite a lot of blue in it). I am curious how much it takes to get it to start turning yellow but for now I am pretty happy with that troubleshooting.

I find the fine mist not such a problem visually but I am wondering if a little break here and there wouldn't be a bad idea, does anyone kick it off and on sometimes? It would be easy to do with my timer, for example maybe two afternoon pauses of like 15-30mintues or so. Is that a ok idea? I just am wondering also about what effect all that co2 has on the fish but I always hear 20mg is fine... wonder if I have enough oxygen really. No fish so far though.

I'll post some more photos too, slowly getting the wall sorted out with an old hanging plant of mine too, eventually it will be a really cool shelving system once I get a few more plants and better pots for everyone!



**Still wondering about the fish choice, I am pretty set about the Green Neons - just not sure about the bottom oriented fish yet. Any input about my choices so far appreciated! Dario Dario or Elassoma * are really high on the list right now.

First video is of the co2 after the threads being tightened and not turned down yet from previous settings.






Second video is the co2 at its current setting, many turns down from previous setting (but I guess not leaking):

































Bubbles everywhere!









Misting hard!









Yummy bubbles?


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Well it turned out to be too much co2 in the end, the checker eventually turned quite yellow, so I dialed it a bit back but now the day here is coming to an end so I will have to see how it goes tomorrow.

I have definitely realized how senstive the dial is on this regulator now, 8th or even 10th turns seem to make a difference. Gonna have to develop a feel for it, happy to play with the range now for a bit before the fish come so I have a better feel for it later on.

Also couldn't help but snap a few photos of the tank during the magenta part of the sunset sequence, looks so nice!


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

If you can at all measure pH drop that will be key. I have had my drop checker that yellow before and things have been fine. Key is keeping an eye on all aspects of the tank (fish included when you have them!). I see no need for a break in CO2, consistent is best IMO. Good surface agitation make sure O2 levels stay high as well. From the pictures it looks pretty good!

Overall tank is looking great!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Grobbins48 said:


> If you can at all measure pH drop that will be key. I have had my drop checker that yellow before and things have been fine. Key is keeping an eye on all aspects of the tank (fish included when you have them!). I see no need for a break in CO2, consistent is best IMO. Good surface agitation make sure O2 levels stay high as well. From the pictures it looks pretty good!
> 
> Overall tank is looking great!


Well my test kit will arrive on Monday I believe, I put out some water tonight to compare with, might also do it tomorrow as well to have multiple samples. 

Well it is a beginning yellow on a 20mg checker so perhaps not so massive of a concentration. Let's see what the PH test has to say!

Thanks


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So my test kit came in the mail today actually so nice I had that water set aside from last night, that was about 14 hours to de-gas so I think enough, but I will try a few more times, especially since the reading on the degassed water was looking to maybe even exceed the maximum value of this kit (6.0-7.6 PH). 

I decided to order a 7.4-9 PH kit as well to be able to precisely know my max value. Berlin tap water is said to be 7.3-7.5 PH according to google. Though I have seen local forums that report higher PH (upwards of 7.8 PH). Berlin water is also very hard, tons of kalk in the kitchen and bathroom is something everyone here is used to! Really high GH/KH readings always.

Anyway I think I will give ADA Soft Water a try and see what happens. 


Results from today:

Tank water after 3-4 Hours of Co2: 7.2 PH

Degassed water (ca 14 Hours): 7.6+ PH


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Test the PH later or turn the co2 on earlier to get another reading. You should be getting around a 1.0 ph drop. I think I see some of your plants pearling (visible o2 being released from leaves.) This is usually an indication of very good photosynthesis as o2 is being released faster than the water can absorb it. 

If that's occurring you probably don't need to increase co2, inspite of the ph numbers which could be off anyway.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Hey Asteroid, thanks for all your input on the PH/Co2 thing 

I will be testing the PH a bit more in the next few days when the other range of PH test kit comes in the mail to double check as well. There is certainly some pearling 

I will also be testing the o2 as well just to be sure.


So far I have been dosing 2ml of seachem flourish comp two times a week and before the co2 I was dosing 2ml of excel, is there any point to excel anymore? I thought maybe because of algae (already getting some starting up).

In the beginning phase should I be careful not to dose much ferts? Or is just some flourish comp no big deal?

I think I will have to have a look around for more info on ferts in general but I guess I ought to wait and see how everything seems with the fish in first maybe. But I guess my tank is pretty medium lighting with pretty good co2 so I suppose I could eventually use more ferts.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

If your setup has an inert substrate and includes co2 and good light you should probably be dosing NPK (Macros) in addition to micros. The Flourish Comp is good for micros for your setup (I use that as well currently.) 

If your seeing some algae you might want to reduce photoperiod or raise light a bit or use a short peak period (if your light allows.) Algae in new setup is almost always a result of lighting, especially in a tank without fast growing stems. You want to stay on top of lighting and keeping water very clean to keep algae away.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Hey yeah I think I ought to cover some macros too, also I guess with the light period I have probably been a bit heavy handed, gotta open the chihiros app up again tomorrow and dial it down a bit and see if that helps a bit.


I borrowed my girlfriends phone with a wide angle on it and got a few cool shots - first being in the afternoon the last 2 later on during the sunset phase.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So bored quarantine weekends during these strange times are dangerous for online shopping haha!

I decided to order my first round of livestock for the tank NPK ferts and a few other things.

I decided to stick with the green neons and then just get some shrimp. I will decide on the rest of the stocking for the tank later on. I still can't decide about the fish for the bottom end of the tank!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Small update, got some ferts in the mail, gonna start with that now!

Otherwise this ADA Softwater stuff, not sure - it seems pretty expensive actually, am I reading it correctly, per water change they recommend 1ml per 10 liters of the tank itself, so for me at about 80 liters I would do like 8ml a weekly water change? Would end up being pricey, anyone actually even use this? What would be a maybe better way to soften my water in your opinion? Oh and I got some ramhorn snails in to help with the algae a bit, algae started to pick up so I turned down the light and shortened it a bit, hopefully that helps.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So the green neons arrived today! Got 15 of em in the tank, about 12-13 are really schooling around the front of the tank a lot already - 1 or 2 are I guess quite stressed and hiding (hopefully they make it!)


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## Hujeta (Jan 26, 2020)

Great to see, surely it's a good feeling to add the livestock! How "crowded" does it feel with 15 tetras in a 20G, would you say that's max or is there room for a few more? I'm soon to stock my 24G so thinking what's reasonable to aim for, I'll probably add them in at least two rounds anyway but curious to hear what you think.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Hujeta said:


> Great to see, surely it's a good feeling to add the livestock! How "crowded" does it feel with 15 tetras in a 20G, would you say that's max or is there room for a few more? I'm soon to stock my 24G so thinking what's reasonable to aim for, I'll probably add them in at least two rounds anyway but curious to hear what you think.


Hey well actually it is 17 haha but these green ones are a wee bit smaller than normal neons at least. But anyway the tank is 62x36x36cm and just barely over 21 gallons but yeah I think so far it looks fine and not too busy but let's see how things settle in! Anyway I could imagine that after they maybe grow out some I might have to find someone to take 2-4 of em from me, but gonna wait and see.

Good luck deciding on what to stock your tank with!!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

"dusk" settling in on the tank, really love the light with these fish, especially the slow muted dusk setting in with low light - very nice!


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## finsfeathersandtails (Jan 30, 2020)

Thanks for sharing. Your tank looks great. Inspiring


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## Hujeta (Jan 26, 2020)

Looks great indeed and never would've guessed you have 17 fish in there!?


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Hey thanks for the nice comments everyone!

Well, 17 were put in there but most of today there were only about 12-14 schooling up front some, max I think I can confirm counted were 15 maybe 16 at once, possible 1 or 2 died - not sure yet. There are TONS of places to hide in this tank.

Here is a video of them today:


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So I want to show a few pix of the tank from today but mostly show you the algae I am starting to find myself up against, hopefully in the next couple days the amanos arrive to help me a bit with this - I also ordered some swimming plants to help me during this time trying to find a good balance with everything - any info or input about what seen or algae control in general is most appreciated!

I have the brown dusty stuff as well as some other funky types - I noticed it coming on a few days ago in earnest and have already had the light dimmed off some like ca 20-25% reduction. I can upload an image of the graph of it as is not before. I shortened the overall cycle and peak, the whole thing is about 7 hours now (was 8) with now even slower and dimmer dawn and dusk periods so the peak is quite short - the graph will show it I guess better, the ending particularly is mostly a bit "strange" looking on graph because I think it looks cool as a sunset - generally my approach to the color balances across the whole cycle were generally for viewer aesthetics, what I thought looked best (but what do the plants think haha..?). Point it seems the the balance of everything so far has been quite pro algae so I gotta deal with it now!

I guess I have to keep in mind also that these plants I have generally don't I guess NEED much light so I am open for quite a range of tuning on light and the other factors (plus the fish I have sure probably wouldn't mind less light I guess). 

But yeah the amanos and swimming plants ought to help a lot (from previous experience at least it always seems to help).

I am thinking about getting in there and trimming some hard hit leaves. Also there is only 1 plant that looks like it won't make it so far, one of the buces is really on it's way out, probably need to take it out (the picture with the snail chowing down on it or the algae).

For 3 days now I have been doing 1ml NPK and 1ml Iron (with some micros in the iron). I have excel on hand but haven't been using it since the first couple weeks.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Don't hit the panic button. The brown fluffy stuff are diatoms. Fairly common in a new startup. Yes the Amanos will eat it so will Otos. I wouldn't make any big changes and your right you have a wide range of light you can use with those plants (pretty much what I have) just depends how fast you want them to grow and what your system can handle. If you dont have it, using Purigen and/or Carbon in the filter helps as well to control algae brought on by organics.

The buce looks like it melted, it might come back. Not uncommon from what I here.

Good co2, consistent water changes, remove damaged/dying leaves and fertilize.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

I noticed a window in close proximity to your tank. How much and how long does this tank receive natural light? 

Your tank is still in the early stages, I would agree no sudden changes for now, but if the algae continues and intensifies I would factor in the Natural Sunlight factor and adjust your lighting accordingly. But this is a wait and see thing.

Looking good.

Gary


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> Don't hit the panic button. The brown fluffy stuff are diatoms. Fairly common in a new startup. Yes the Amanos will eat it so will Otos. I wouldn't make any big changes and your right you have a wide range of light you can use with those plants (pretty much what I have) just depends how fast you want them to grow and what your system can handle. If you dont have it, using Purigen and/or Carbon in the filter helps as well to control algae brought on by organics.
> 
> The buce looks like it melted, it might come back. Not uncommon from what I here.
> 
> Good co2, consistent water changes, remove damaged/dying leaves and fertilize.


Well now there are 6 Amanos in the tank, I am waiting to decide about a group of otos. Since these plants don't need much light I am at least happy if need be I can reduce without them being too badly off. I just dont want the lower placed buces to stretch too hard. 

I will look into purigen, today I actually tossed a small amount of peatmoss pellets into a small bag and put it into my filter during maintanence today, actually it sounds like purigen can be used with them while just removing the tannin coloring, which is fine by me really. Today I actually also uninstalled the out/input of the filter and used a pipe cleaner on the pipe runs, tons of gunk came out and the filter flow is better, I sure did get an organics bloom these last few weeks wow! 





Crazygar said:


> I noticed a window in close proximity to your tank. How much and how long does this tank receive natural light?
> 
> Your tank is still in the early stages, I would agree no sudden changes for now, but if the algae continues and intensifies I would factor in the Natural Sunlight factor and adjust your lighting accordingly. But this is a wait and see thing.
> 
> ...


Indeed, well it seems like it has maybe stopped intensifying but I definitely need to trim some and get the badly affected leaves out. I have already mentioned about reduced light cycle but as summer gets more and more here the sun is even stronger in this room albeit never direct until very late in the day, but even then it only comes through a very narrow bit into the room, most of the time it is reflected (quite strongly actually) from the building behind us. I wonder if this reflected sun is still affecting my tank even though it never directly hits it. I might consider some blind or light curtains to diffuse it a bit, lets see...

Thanks 


So I have some photos of some of the new Dario Darios:

The first photo is of a 100% confirmed male haha, he is the best colored dario dario of the 4 - the second photo is of the only possible female of the bunch in my opinion, I believe the other 3 to be males, she might just be a male in camo though, anyway the more I research into sexing these fish the more confusing I feel like it gets (hearing decent amount of conflicting info really). The store meant to send me 2 males 2 females. I have 1 for sure male, 1 nearly certain male, one sick looking male, and the one possible female but if I had to bet I would say "beta" male - never kept these fish before though. Any input about sexing these fish is appreciated!


The 3rd photo and the rest are of the one sick male, I believe he has something wrong with him, behavior seems pretty fine though, but anyway I noticed the first day he seemed weird in the gills but I thought he was flaring or something, but now I realized it is his right side gill - it seems quite inflamed and infected or something, so I manged to catch him pretty easily and put him in my 8 gallon shrimp tank. I will monitor him and see what to do about it. I got some decent photos of him and the area, maybe any of you can weigh in on it - I'd really appreciate it!


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

He also seems a little thin. The last picture shows this quite clear.

Going to wager Gill Hyperplasia, or Tumor in the gill plate/region.

Clean water, good diet is all you do. I believe other than removing it surgically, there is no medication that will remedy this.

Gary


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Crazygar said:


> He also seems a little thin. The last picture shows this quite clear.
> 
> Going to wager Gill Hyperplasia, or Tumor in the gill plate/region.
> 
> ...


Well he seems fine in the shrimp tank for now, gonna pay attention and figure out what I should do. 

Unfortunately this is my only option for quarantine and he was joined today by another male, this one I noticed might mayyyybe have ich or something.. I saw 2 bulging white spots. Started really looking at em all after it seems this seller might not be so great.

To make matters worse: the only bright and perfect male jumped after i fed him live food! After I was in the tank room for a couple hours of course, must have been out for quite a while but the time I found him. 

My foray with the dario darios has been very unlucky 😞


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Sorry about the fish. I know it looks better with the water level very high, but you should keep the water level 1"+ below the rim. I haven't kept darios, but I haven't had a jumper in the year my tank has been setup as well as other tanks I had. 

You could raise it for nice pics though


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your troubles andrewss. The best thing you can do: learn from this, never give up and try to make both fish as comfortable as possible. 

Unfortunately for your Shrimp, they will hunted down. Dario dario are micro predators and the Shrimp are on the menu. 

I am strong advocate of QT of all new additions regardless of condition. I'd rather treat a bare tank than my show tank. Try raising the temperature to 82F, and do daily 10% water changes and heavy gravel vacuuming. I did this once for a batch of Rainbowfish and it worked great.

Gary


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> Sorry about the fish. I know it looks better with the water level very high, but you should keep the water level 1"+ below the rim. I haven't kept darios, but I haven't had a jumper in the year my tank has been setup as well as other tanks I had.
> 
> You could raise it for nice pics though


Yeah I probably should have lowered it, I am really surprised one of the dario darios jumped though, never heard about them jumping plus really I think that from watching their behaviors and places in tank they like to be and how they move around, I really thought if anyone jumped it woulda been one of the tetras...

I have some Phyllanthus fluitans on the way and maybe that and a lower water level will help with potential jumping behavior.





Crazygar said:


> Sorry to hear about your troubles andrewss. The best thing you can do: learn from this, never give up and try to make both fish as comfortable as possible.
> 
> Unfortunately for your Shrimp, they will hunted down. Dario dario are micro predators and the Shrimp are on the menu.
> 
> ...


Well I am trying, the 2 fish in the shrimp tank got some nice live mosquito larve and they munched down so that is good. 

I have watched them in the shrimp tank and I definitely think some shrimplets might be in trouble but with the larger shrimp I see have no fear of the dario dario and the fish don't seem so interested in them to be honest... maybe it will change?


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Keep them well fed and your Shrimplets will not be predated on as much. Larger shrimp are safe but if you are using this as a grow out tank you will be starting over.

Other than that, keep us posted of changing developments.

Gary


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Hey does anyone wanna weigh in on this male, since the 1 male has an obvious problem with the right side gill (however seems to act fine) - I have really had a close look at the remaining dario dario, all of which now are in the shrimp tank (if they have carried ich with them I decided to play it safe... after the fact at least...). 

What do you think that white spot is right on his head in front of the dorsal fin? Wondering if it could be ich, not sure really - its the only one I can find on any of them, even the one with the messed up gill only has the inflammed gill (possible ich in the gill?). Anyway, his spot isnt incredibly white nor does it look as round as google images of ich..

Otherwise I dunno, gonna work on diagnosis for this and consider maybe raising the display tank with the neons and amanos temperature up to the 80s and keeping an eye on things etc, lets see!


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Picture is fuzzy, but ich looks like a little grain of salt, that has a more "patchy" appearance, almost like missing scales or lesion. 

Ich will not cause one gill to swell like that, I stand by my original diagnosis.

For future reference, QT all incoming fish to save you possibly causing issue in your main display tank.

Gary


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Crazygar said:


> Picture is fuzzy, but ich looks like a little grain of salt, that has a more "patchy" appearance, almost like missing scales or lesion.
> 
> Ich will not cause one gill to swell like that, I stand by my original diagnosis.
> 
> ...


 I agree, it doesn't quite look exactly like ich, perhaps it is a lesion.

Anyway, update on the dario darios:

I got frustrated with the search for females (I even had a wanted add out in Germany for some) - no fish sellers wanted to assure me about sending females (hell even if they do it can end up like my order of 2 male 2 female = all were male 99% sure). THEREFORE: I put an add out (here in Berlin there are tons of fish hobbyist so it was a fast process) to gift my three males (explained in detail about their condition, pictures and etc) and someone came within 45 minutes. He seemed happy to take them and said he "knows what to do" IE quarantine them for a bit, he also got a nice handful of various plants from my 30 liter cube tank that they were in before he came.... because I decided to redo that tank (spending way too much time at home during corona so why not haha).

Thanks for all the advice about them recently, unfortunately it was a short and kinda sad foray into the dario dario keeping world - I woulda have stuck with them if I felt confident about finding females which did NOT seem easy!

Now I gotta search around for what I want to try (with success this time dammit) next: I will try to find local fish ideally from nice hobbyist breeders so they don't have to be stressed by shipping, are used to Berlin water, and I guess hobby breeders probably take nicer care of their fishes than most stores.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Sad to hear that you have decided to forego the Dario dario. 

I would never give up though, do a bit more research and as you said, try and find a local source of these fish and this time follow QT'ing all new fish in a separate hospital tank (kinda like what we all are doing now).

Gary


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Crazygar said:


> Sad to hear that you have decided to forego the Dario dario.
> 
> I would never give up though, do a bit more research and as you said, try and find a local source of these fish and this time follow QT'ing all new fish in a separate hospital tank (kinda like what we all are doing now).
> 
> Gary



I'll see about dario dario, the whole difficulty around getting females has kinda turned me against them a bit for now, unfortunately it seems nobody is breeding them in Berlin right now, because of this I almost instead went with pygmy sunfishes but I think the temperatures don't add up - and now I am thinking I ought to maybe stick with S.A. fish anyway.

Got some floaters in, Phyllanthus fluitans, see how I like it... looks alright for now, likely will just be there while I figure out how to reign in the algae (seems to be on the retreat already though). At least if I don't like it they all go into my cube nano tank at some point I suppose. 

I also got some filter goodies, some purigen and matrix - gonna see about getting those in the filter sometime soon. Also gotta think about how much I can fit in the damn thing (kinda a small external filter). https://www.jbl.de/de/produkte/detail/8022/jbl-cristalprofi-e402-greenline


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So this is the Hygrophila pinnatifida on my right side, it melted a bit but now looks like it is going well, however it is stretching up a lot, how would you recommend I trim it to keep it more bushy and petit, it is already getting too tall for the layout in my opinion. I often see such compact and delicate kind of petite growth from these in photos and scaping, I assume its just a matter of how you trim them? Or maybe I should have started from invitro plants?


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## Hujeta (Jan 26, 2020)

It might not be the case for this plant but for many other plants the light level will control how tall the plant grows. With less light than the plant needs it will stretch against surface to increase the strength of light coming through, with high light the plant will be suppressed and take a more compact shape.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Hujeta said:


> It might not be the case for this plant but for many other plants the light level will control how tall the plant grows. With less light than the plant needs it will stretch against surface to increase the strength of light coming through, with high light the plant will be suppressed and take a more compact shape.


Hey! Well yeah, true when light is too low plants can end up stretching like crazy, I saw some buecphlandra plants in this used cube I bought recently that stretched way more than I thought they even could (shaded part of the scape). 

I googled around and I guess it is normal to kind of prune hygrophila pinnatifida down so it grows compacter/denser: I read a bit of it at: https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/plant-guide-hygrophila.html

Really pretty plant, hopefully I can get it to get a bit denser where it is anchored on my lava rocks!


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## Ventchur (Apr 29, 2018)

andrewss said:


> Really pretty plant, hopefully I can get it to get a bit denser where it is anchored on my lava rocks!


One of my favourites. 

I would recommend replacing the bottom half that is all emersed growth with the healthy tops. This will lower everything, clean it up a bit and you'll start with a good foundation. Thereafter keep trimming to encourage horizontal growth and use the clippings to add more volume. Find someplace to stick the clipping in the rock work or just use some gel type superglue.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Ventchur said:


> One of my favourites.
> 
> I would recommend replacing the bottom half that is all emersed growth with the healthy tops. This will lower everything, clean it up a bit and you'll start with a good foundation. Thereafter keep trimming to encourage horizontal growth and use the clippings to add more volume. Find someplace to stick the clipping in the rock work or just use some gel type superglue.


I will be doing that this week (ordered a few more black lava rocks to help). Also got a nice angled pair of 12" scissors to make it all easier too 



Soooo, I thought maybe I was having some problems with a couple plants (not sure this plant but it seems like a delicate buce plant). I took it from a used tank I "harvested" for plants and some shrimp a couple months back. Anyway, these 2 plants have been hit hard, I thought it was the temperature increase I have been introducing slowly but today I think maybe confirmed that it is indeed my hungry hungry Ramhorn snails! This lower of the two plants was getting munched on hard (they seem to go for the base of the leaves). It has been trimmed pretty hard but I think it might make it. The other one, on the driftwood is basically totally trimmed. 

Do you think it is the ramhorn snails then? The tank is pretty clean and I make sure to not overfeed so I think they are getting HUNGRY and heard they then can munch on plants, perhaps these plants were struggling and they gravitated to them, I dunno? Besides this species of buce and 2 others I haven't had any issues as of now, but I am gonna start to gather them up some and put em in the shrimp tank / gift them locally. Today finding the 2 ramshorns "in the act" kind of made me think they are culprits. I have also found mysterious holes in some leaves as well, would be them as well no??? Otherwise most plants seem to be doing really well right now!


***I mentioned a temperature increase, well the green neons I think quite like it, but the main reason is because I am nearly 100% sure I will get a pair of GBR's because I found a friendly local breeder here in Berlin that has 2 "litters" (broods?) available right now, just a couple pairs left from the one from Nov 19 and then soon in like 2-4 weeks she is thinking the genders of the newest fry will show. She has got them to breed in hard Berlin water (not treating it apparently) and said she thinks as long as you keep things clean and change water they aren't so hard to keep.

Speaking about local hard water, well I have a bit of peat in my filter now, actually combined with purigen I heard it still has a softening effect without the tannins, what do you all think? I figured I ought to try to soften the water a bit anyway... it has been in there about 3 weeks now. 

I also had been thinking about ADA Softwater - however I heard that maybe isn't the best idea. I can't find much of ANY INFO on that stuff online though, does anyone have experience with that stuff or even know what it actually is anyway? Crazy how little info is out there on the stuff!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So here I am with the ~1 month update, the issue with the snails eating those 2 buce plants was solved by some happenstance ordering of more buces (mostly for my 8 gallon tank) that I just sent straight to this tank instead haha, I actually like the changes a lot, it made me bring some fissidens moss forward on the driftwood which looks quite nice there now I think. Did some trimming and replanting on the hygrophilia too!

Otherwise there was more gluing of buces to bits of lava rock and arranged low in the front, a few changes here and there, small things that actually make a big difference to me! Generally now I am thinking the base of the tank is now all sorted, I might move the hygrophila on the left over to the rest of it on the right, not sure yet. Besides that there is the added congo fern in the center to the right of the driftwood, I am not sure I want it there or in the tank at all yet, for now it seems pretty well placed but I'll see how it grows on me (or if it grows too fast and high for me to care to keep up with...?).

I have messaged the local breeder again today and yesterday, there are 2 pairs left of GBRs from the November spawn, otherwise I would have to wait about 2-4 weeks still for the youngest ones to show gender and so on. What would you do? I am not so sure haha!

Also I have to say I really love purigen wow, that and skimmer really make for an amazing water quality! Couldn't imagine it any other way! 

The screenshots are of the little bluetooth temperature probe I installed today as well, the app tracks the readings haha and even can notify you if it goes out of a set value range haha. I threw that in the tank and the new slimmer heater as well, now that slim 75w heater can be essentially fully hidden behind the trident fern and rocks, really liking it better than the old long glass tetra one!

So on to the photos, most of em are during my peak light cycle but the last few from the dimmer part of the sunset (my favorite time of day for the tank, the neons really start to SHINE then). Anyway the tank is looking really great after the rearranging and trimming! Been well worth the time and effort!


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## Ventchur (Apr 29, 2018)

Tank coming along, the vibrant greens against the black rock with the sand is a killer look. 

I like all the adjustments and additions you've done recently. I would maybe add a couple small moss covered rocks around the base of the rock work, or even on the driftwood branches near the tips(see if you can find mini pelia around) and my ocd would level out the sand against the glass.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Ventchur said:


> ...and my ocd would level out the sand against the glass.


LOL, your just like me. If you don't have one OP get a scaping spatula or I guess you could use something else at home like a credit card. 

The scape does look great, otherwise >


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Ventchur said:


> Tank coming along, the vibrant greens against the black rock with the sand is a killer look.
> 
> I like all the adjustments and additions you've done recently. I would maybe add a couple small moss covered rocks around the base of the rock work, or even on the driftwood branches near the tips(see if you can find mini pelia around) and my ocd would level out the sand against the glass.


Thanks a lot! Yeah a mossy rock would be a good idea! Been thinking about maybe starting a couple fissidens rocks, I understand that moss a decent bit of light though and wonder how well it will fair all the way at the bottom of the tank, only one way to find out so when I trim it from the 2 places it is already I'll give it a try. Mini pelia could also work, kinda partial to fissidens look though. 

Thanks again for the kind words! 




Asteroid said:


> Ventchur said:
> 
> 
> > ...and my ocd would level out the sand against the glass.
> ...


Hahaha! And I generally consider myself to be fairly ocd, well actually I kinda like some waves in my substrate / sand. Anyway they'll level out in a few days themselves really hehe.. Maybe a scraper spatula one day, this week I got a 12 inch angled pair of scissors.. Certainly a good purchase!

Thanks! Happy to hear some good feedback from you all!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So today my girlfriend and I rode out a few miles to pick up the 2nd to last of the local breeders last pairs from the Nov. 19 Spawn - was a very nice Sunday, got em settled in the tank, after about only an hour or two after being released in the tank they really started being bold and exploring, they barely react to movement near the tank, the neons are much more easy to spook - maybe it is cuz they are captive bred ones, I usually read about GBR's being very shy, these two are far from it at least today! They actually joined in on the feeding for the green neons today too!

Really hope they can thrive in this tank, I am slowly considering doing more to sink my KH/GH values, maybe slowly mixing in osmosis water or creating some crazy (seen some interesting plans out there) of "Peat Cannons" - well at least that is what they would call em over here, haha... to gravity filter water slowly through a vertical tube stuffed with peat. Just concerned I might sign up for too much during these excess free-time at home times we are living in right now haha. I already have some filter medium replaced with peat cubes but I don't really think they're doing so much.

Anyway the local breeder said she doesn't do anything to sink her hardness and has managed to breed them several times so perhaps it isn't so "necessary" but I think it would be better, as long as I slowly do this process and can get consistent results/mixtures going. Definitely gonna look into it a bit. Any input here apprecaited!

As far as how they fit into the tank, I think the GBRs were a great choice, pretty perfect with the green neons! Plus finally a fish that explores all the bottom areas and maybe the cave will turn into the love nest someday haha!

Here are some pix and a video (my mom saw the video and said they're breathing to the beat... haha just so happened kraftwerk was in the playlist this afternoon)


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So my girlfriend started calling them Gerry and Deborah and it seems to have stuck cuz when she was sitting near the tank I then eventually without thinking referred to the female GBR as Deborah haha!

Today they are exploring a bit more independently from each other and still seem quite confident and healthy! Hope it stays this way!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Very nice. I really like GBRs. One of the few freshwater fish that have saltwater color. Those are dying for a good macro shot. :grin2:


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> Very nice. I really like GBRs. One of the few freshwater fish that have saltwater color. Those are dying for a good macro shot. :grin2:


I do too, I have always admired them and really happy to have a go at keeping a pair! Definitely wouldn't have gone for em if I hadn't found the nice local breeder with some!

I asked a friend I could maybe borrow a decent camera from, but he said he only has a fixed 50mm lense, don't really know if that would be any good for fish photography lol but yeah you're right need to get a few proper shots of em!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

andrewss said:


> I do too, I have always admired them and really happy to have a go at keeping a pair! Definitely wouldn't have gone for em if I hadn't found the nice local breeder with some!
> 
> I asked a friend I could maybe borrow a decent camera from, but he said he only has a fixed 50mm lense, don't really know if that would be any good for fish photography lol but yeah you're right need to get a few proper shots of em!


BTW those are nice shots, the macro will allow you to get closer without losing sharpness so we could really so those colors. The 50mm is probably the 1.8 prime lens. That's a good overall lens. The 1.8 will allow you to shot at a faster shutter speed so you might get more crispness out of it. There are many 50mm macros on the market as well.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Ok, so today is Wednesday and I have already spotted a cluster of eggs on a lava rock. I put the pair in the tank on SUNDAY! It is exciting but also a bit stressful hahaha, not sure what to do really. 

I had noticed on Monday that the female was either bloated or possibly to the brim with eggs. Monday she seemed fine and was quite active. Tuesday I noticed she was hiding a decent amount and not acting like I remembered on Sunday-Monday. Also she either had something bulging "from" her anus or ovipositor - I suspected either eggs and all that or maybe a GI parasite.

Today and yesterday I swore I noticed her looking thinner. Today she is out a lot and foraging around the tank a lot, what I suspect is her ovipositor is looking a bit less prominent and her belly is certainly not as bulging. This morning I also woke up to find a small amano shrimp 3 feet away from the tank dried up on the floor. As the lights kicked on I noticed the male (Gerry lol) is hiding in the upper part of the back right in the ferns and only seems to come out in a storm occasionally. 

I was measuring something on my out pipe for a custom pipe holder project thing I want to do, anyway that is when I saw the milky looking eggs peppered on that small lava rock. 

I would guess they were laid in the night from Monday-Tuesday but I don't really know obviously... and will need to look into how GBR's breed more.

Any input appreciated! Really not sure if I will intervene in anyway yet.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Congrats and not surprised about the Shrimp. They are, after all Cichlids and have behaviors that have made the group famous (or infamous) when it comes to Parental Care.

Depending on how many times they have already done this in the past, they may eat the eggs. In fact, mine did this for quite some time before they figured it out. The reward was a tank full of GBRs for a while.

When they do hatch, make sure your inlets on your filter is protected by a sponge. I prefer to keep the fry in the tank and let nature take its course (though get ready to spot feed the fry).

Any other fish/invert that inhabit the bottom areas of this tank may be at risk for a good butt-kicking.

Gary


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## Ventchur (Apr 29, 2018)

Damn, they didn't wait to get down to business.. Guess that's a good sign, congrats!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Crazygar said:


> Congrats and not surprised about the Shrimp. They are, after all Cichlids and have behaviors that have made the group famous (or infamous) when it comes to Parental Care.
> 
> Depending on how many times they have already done this in the past, they may eat the eggs. In fact, mine did this for quite some time before they figured it out. The reward was a tank full of GBRs for a while.
> 
> ...


Indeed! I have observed them a bit today and they don't seem soooooo aggro, definitely different than the first couple days but not horrible and I've seen much worse aggression in a tank before from a betta and etc. I wonder what happened to the amano that jumped ship!

I will get some mesh on the bottom inlet but dont really want to block off the top, for now the floating plants are kinda blocking it a bit anyway, maybe thats enough plus I think they'll be on the bottom of the tank anyway. Yeah I will just take a more hands-off approach, let's see what happens!

I have some fine powder food and might grab some live baby brine shrimp if they end up hatching.






Ventchur said:


> Damn, they didn't wait to get down to business.. Guess that's a good sign, congrats!


No, they certainly did not, quite surprised! Thanks, yeah I would guess so huh!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Well since yesterday morning I don't see any eggs on the rock and their behavior is a bit more "normal" now - I wonder what happened, I guess likely is that the parents ate them or something? They are both still quite young and perhaps new to breeding anyway I guess it is very normal to have failed attempts early on. Fine by me really for now, curious to see how it develops.


So my obsessive nature combined with corona online time is proving yet again a trap haha, anyway I got an RO filter from ebay because I looked into setup and how they work for a while a few days ago and realized how easy it is with a fairly cheap setup (60 Euros for this complete set). It produces at a pretty good rate too! Decent amount of waste water though but I guess a normal rate. 

I finally have a proper big JBL test kit and last night my initial results were staggering with KH/GH... Berlin water is HARD!

Samples from my tank as is (hasn't seen a drop of the new RO water):

KH: 9
GH: 22 or 23 

Samples from the first 5L canister of RO water:

KH: No effect from reagent
GH: No effect from reagent 

50/50 Mix of RO with Tank water:

KH: Not yet tested
GH: 11



Those were late night last night, did a 15L water change as well, still with prime treated water straight from the tap.

I try to figure out my target for my KH/GH values, plan to mix RO and Tap water. I guess probably like 70/30 or 40/60 eventually would be good? I don't know really, gonna have to look into this a lot!

Of course I wish I saw this coming weeks ago and just did it before adding livestock but I assume if I am patient and slowly start mixing in cut RO water with tap during my water changes eventually I can work the hardness down safely without the fish experiencing a big swing in chemistry. The green neons almost must be live caught I think so they would certainly love the hardness down, the GBR's should of course as well however they are locally raised fish so have only known super hard Berlin water (the breeder confirmed she didn't do anything to bring hardness down, only standard water conditioner).

Any input here appreciated, anyway I will be looking into it and hopefully accounts of people with experience on this


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Most likely ate them. See Post 81. 

They will figure it out, good news is that you have a pair. 

Once they figure out NOT to eat the eggs, you will be supplying friends and stores with fry if you maintain good tank husbandry. 

Your Rams have bred in this condition, remember that. If you wish to keep things up, do not change anything and continue what you were doing. Changes may change their breeding behavior.

Yes, Berlin water is hard, but many great breeders in your neck of the woods use the water and have had successes. We often strive for the best, even when we get positive results from the current setup. I am guilty of that as well.

Gary


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

I am in the process of looking more into mixing in RO water to an established tank, I totally agree that it is actually a bit of a risk to try to "improve" at this point. Even if I realize I don't actually want to start slowly cutting my water change water with RO I still look at the 60 euro investment as not sooooo bad since at least now I don't have to lug any distilled water from stores for spraying my house plants and etc haha

Thanks for your input! Yeah you're right they probably did that huh, well let's see what happens!


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## forksnbolts (Jan 8, 2020)

The tank, the buces, the rams! Everything looks great. Very nice and neat tank.


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## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

Have really enjoyed following your journal. Tank looks fantastic as does its surroundings. Love the aesthetic. Immaturity and/or lack of experience may very well have played a roll in this first spawn. To truly have a successful spawn in the future you may need to lower your hardness. Hard water can interfere with egg fertilization and development. Perhaps ask the breeder what water hardness they use for breeding. Good luck.


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## zachshap (Dec 17, 2018)

andrewss said:


> So my girlfriend started calling them Gerry and Deborah and it seems to have stuck cuz when she was sitting near the tank I then eventually without thinking referred to the female GBR as Deborah haha!
> 
> Today they are exploring a bit more independently from each other and still seem quite confident and healthy! Hope it stays this way!


What is the name of the plant in the background here?


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

forksnbolts said:


> The tank, the buces, the rams! Everything looks great. Very nice and neat tank.


Thanks a lot for the positive input 




schooldazed said:


> Have really enjoyed following your journal. Tank looks fantastic as does its surroundings. Love the aesthetic. Immaturity and/or lack of experience may very well have played a roll in this first spawn. To truly have a successful spawn in the future you may need to lower your hardness. Hard water can interfere with egg fertilization and development. Perhaps ask the breeder what water hardness they use for breeding. Good luck.


Thanks! It has been a fun way to enjoy being cooped up at home so much the last few weeks haha! Well the local breeder I got them from claimed she has bred them in untreated Berlin water (same as my water). I think Gar has a good point, that striving here for "the best" might then be risky. Though I have decided to proceed with slowly integrating RO water into my water changes, I usually do about 15-20L at this point 2x weekly. I plan to eventually have it at about a 50/50 mix of tap and RO water. Still looking into what the consensus is on using RO water to soften for classic SA fish that come from soft waters - but that have already acclimated to harder waters. I gather that it is OK as long as the process is slow.




zachshap said:


> What is the name of the plant in the background here?


I dont know, I think you mean the Bolbitis heteroclita?

I have had most of it actually melt, but that part of the tank it seems to have taken hold and is doing pretty well. I actually moved some from another part of the tank to a slightly more shaded area and it melted very very quickly. It is an interesting plant!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Hey so long time no update (its all relative haha) - so I have some things to post about that I won't get to yet about the water and some algae fight things, anyway by now I have the light reduced quite a bit and will discuss about that stuff in the near future, also I have been testing the water a good bit now and can report on that soon. I plan to go with probably a 60/40 RO-Tap water mix.

Anyway, so the GBR's have been at it again, this time I saw the signs and assumed it would happen soon but happened even faster, she laid the eggs this afternoon and I made a dumb mistake and let go of a small bit of algae wafer too early and the current took it way too close to the nest and therefore a lot of drama ensued as the neons and shrimps became interested. Deb (the female GBR lol) was goin nuts, attacking the neons and going back to the nest then finally realized the wafer was there so then snacking a bit as well. Felt kinda bad about the placement of the small bit of wafer and won't be doing that again! 

So let's see what happens with this spawn!

Here is a little video of the scene:


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Wow, at least this is teaching them to be protective parents. Here is hoping that this batch survives. 

Gary


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Haha, yeah I guess, thankfully it all settled down once the wafer was consumed! Today all seems a lot calmer in the tank, the male is keeping vigilant watch at the nest for now. He doesn't seem to ever go after anyone unless the odd amano shrimp comes to graze too close to the nest then the get a nice head butting


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So here is a series of some updates about the tank lately. Starting off with the nice stuff and no close ups of the algae hot spots haha! So the last week I have added in some new plants, really like the new additions! The Riccardia is a great moss, part of me wants to glue it all over the driftwood but another part of me wants that to stay looking wooden haha, for now sticking with a peppering of it on rocks in the foreground. The new Pangolino anubias is also very interesting, it was invitro so I am very curious to see how it grows out a bit. Bucephalandra Catarina is also become my favorite looking buce right now, love its shape and size for this tank, added a bunch of it to the front left of the tank. I actually got a bit more off Catarina and the Riccardia to plant on the right side of the tank and have sworn it is the last damn plant order for this year! haha!

Riccardia sp. "chamedryfolia"

Bucephalandra sp. "Catarina"

Anubias barteri var. nana 'Pangolino'


In the final photos you will see the busy parents tending to their eggs, really colored up these days as well (mostly getting nice frozen food). Gonna get some live food again tomorrow for them! Also I have a stainless steel inlet guard coming in the mail incase the fry actually hatch. 



.... now to discuss algae and all that <a href="http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/images/smilie/icon_sad.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Sad" ></a> oh and some water parameters stuff, test results:

Bump:






















































Does anyone want to weigh in on what algae(s) I am dealing with in the tank? The stuff that seems to be taking a foothold on in the tank and actively growing is what I got a close up of on the buce in the jar after being hit with large doses of h202 and exel. In the tank since a few days now it has been growing with much less tenacity after starting general Excel dosing in the tank (lowish dose, 2.25ml) and significant reduction of light.

Soooo I think I have a light colored stringy ish algae that grows most extensively in the tank, then a bit of this mayyybe bba dark colored slightly fuzzy algae on the edges of some of the buces? Not sure, but I think that hte latter came on a couple (that buce) plants when I got em so I am fighting someone elses war now. Anyway I feel pretty decent now that in general algae isnt growing so fast after light reduction and excel like mentioned.

Also the last photos show what I decided to do with some of the buces I can easily pull from the tank and experiment with, I treated that plant over 3 days in the glass container. The hard hitter I think is the full dip for 5-10min in 3% h202 undiluted then a series of high excel doses for varying durations. The algae seems to take a beating but doesnt really disappear, though lets see if it even comes back, perhaps it is well dead by the end of that treatment, just still visible. Does anyone have experience in this kind of "bucket" technique with robust plants like buces and so on? Curious what you all have come up with, I heard about the h202 and exel aggressive treatment on youtube and on here as well.


***The photos / close ups of the plants hit harder with algae are about a week old now and I removed most infested leaves I could, plus now after less photo period and excel the tank is looking better. In the coming days I'll do an algae update again hopefully with more positive results


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

And now finally the water testing results:

Nitrite: <0.01
Nitrate: 3
Ammonia: <0.05

PO4: <0.02
SiO2: >6,0 (read highest on scale, maybe higher?)
FE: 0.1
Cu: <0,05

KH: 7
GH: 20


The above results were after only 2 smallish water changes which added 10-13 Liters of RO-Tap Water mixes at 40/60 Mix. I plan to switch that slowly to at least RO-Tap Mixes of 60/40 or 70/30 (RO to Tap). Gonna try to get KH at about 4 ish and GH a bit under 10. I might consider going with more RO but I still want to kind of be able to have the convienence of mixing tap instead of additives to get the minerals in and KH value stable. I still add appropriate amounts of prime to my mixes and even started with seachem's Freshwater Balance as well. 


Water test results of the 60/40 RO-Tap mixes were:

KH: 5
GH: 10


* I also ordered a seperate potassium test, gonna see if I can get any idea about that level in the tank as well, but I guess for now maybe I ought to stick with my NPK - or maybe even increase???

** I still have a lot to learn up on about RO mixing and water change schedules... want to try to keep things as stable and gradual as possible for the GBRs! Will post more about that in the near future!


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

You are doing what I would do, elbow grease. While it's good that you are starting to see some reduction, still finding the root cause should remain paramount.

Usually starts when you are starting a tank without too many faster growing plants. Eventually things will balance out and things will start to compete with the algae essentially starving it.

I used Amazon Frogbit when first starting my tank as nutrient sponges to help out compete. Keep with the manual removal, spot dosing and cleaning when necessary. Increasing your water change schedule (as in more smaller) might help things along as well. 

Gary


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Thanks and yeah you're right! The root cause is most important, however that is much easier said than done and really it would have to be quite rigorously methodical to actually try to get down to it - that process would probably take too much time so my decision was to do most everything to reduce algae production and perhaps I can throttle back on those variables if you will haha, but for now I think the biggest problem was for the first few weeks I was running WAY too much light (7.5 hrs at 50-60% brightness for a long peak of 3.5 hours if I recall correctly which is actually pretty damn bright and way too long, I will post a screen shot of my current photo period but it peaks at like 35% for just an hour and a half ish and the total cycle is about 6 hours with very gradual ramp up and down periods.

I changed out nearly 20 liters, think it was 16 or 17 in the end. The replaced water was the first 60/40 RO-Tap mix. Plan to do some water testing on the tank after the next one. Gonna try to change out ~20L for the near future about every other day or so, say about 3 times a week. 


The GBR's have been busy again today, a poor amano flew out of the tank during lunch that I was able to rescue... starting to feel bad about those little guys! Might need to consider finding them a new home or possibly switching them out for Oto's since I believe Oto's are supposed to be able to handle 28 degrees. But my girlfriend really loves the quirky amanos and it will be hard to see them go but it is also hard to see them dodging a bulldozing GBR when food and eggs are in the tank and accidentally flying out of the rimless tank! 


They have actually moved some eggs a bit towards the inside of the tank, like one rock over, still appear to be attending a lot to them. I assumed they moved them at least, anyway the male has been picking randomly around the nest area, seemingly at nothing - but I haven't had much time to observe today, and only just had a look in very low light - would be cool if he was actually collecting very small wigglers?? Curious to see the state of the nest and surrounding area tomorrow during lights on - though I suppose chances are the young parents won't be successful, let's see!


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

Other than the riccardia chamedryfolia, there really isn't anything in your tank that NEEDS high light. I think you could probably get away with 20-30% power, I have one of the Chihiros as well and it definitely puts out some serious par. 

Those 20 liter water changes are definitely going to help, but keep in mind that you have to do way more small water changes to make up for one large one when it comes to dilution. Let's say you have 100 ppm of some pollutant- a 25% water change will get that down to 80 ppm, another 25% water change gets that down to 60 ppm, and another 25% water change gets it down to 45 ppm. Whereas if you do one big 55% water change you are changing less water overall, and getting the same effect. On the other hand, I'm more of a plant guy than a fish guy so I don't know if that would be bad for your GBR fry.

From my own experience with lava rock scapes, it can be very hard to get in to all the gaps to get rid of mulm. That mulm in contact with the water column is IMO one of the biggest causes of algae. I recommed sticking a turkey baster in those gaps and blowing them out hard to get as much mulm as possible, more is always in there than you'd expect. Just an idea since I know it can be frustrating trying to find where the algae source is hiding!


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## vraev (Apr 13, 2012)

Beautiful tank. Love it


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

gjcarew said:


> Other than the riccardia chamedryfolia, there really isn't anything in your tank that NEEDS high light. I think you could probably get away with 20-30% power, I have one of the Chihiros as well and it definitely puts out some serious par.
> 
> Those 20 liter water changes are definitely going to help, but keep in mind that you have to do way more small water changes to make up for one large one when it comes to dilution. Let's say you have 100 ppm of some pollutant- a 25% water change will get that down to 80 ppm, another 25% water change gets that down to 60 ppm, and another 25% water change gets it down to 45 ppm. Whereas if you do one big 55% water change you are changing less water overall, and getting the same effect. On the other hand, I'm more of a plant guy than a fish guy so I don't know if that would be bad for your GBR fry.
> 
> From my own experience with lava rock scapes, it can be very hard to get in to all the gaps to get rid of mulm. That mulm in contact with the water column is IMO one of the biggest causes of algae. I recommed sticking a turkey baster in those gaps and blowing them out hard to get as much mulm as possible, more is always in there than you'd expect. Just an idea since I know it can be frustrating trying to find where the algae source is hiding!


Thanks for the input! I have heard that most people get ok results with riccardia chamedryfolia with lowish light (on the bottom of this tank they aren't getting much) I hope they just survive, not really bothered if they grow much or not! I also have 2 patches of Fissidens going in the tank, one high level in the middle back (it is LUSH now) and one in the front left on the driftwood which is also doing very well - I wonder if they would do ok at the lower ends of the tank as well but for now will stay where they are. 

The turkey baster thing would definitely be a good idea, I already know the mulm is gathering and try not to imagine how much is creeping down below in the cracks haha but yeah best to keep up with it so between GBR spawnings I ought to have a go at it!




vraev said:


> Beautiful tank. Love it


Thank you


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

The GBR's will clean around the nest and eat any fungused eggs. What you are seeing is natural parental behavior. Sounds like they might have nailed it this time.

As for the lighting, as already stated, dropping it back some percentage points can only help in the end.

Amanos will constantly attempt to go after the GBR eggs, eventually you will have no Amanos. Even in a large tank they will suffer the same fate. 

I had an accidental Apistogramma gibbiceps breeding tank (53GAL) with Amanos. Each time the Apistos spawned, I would find all my Amanos dried up on the floor. My Terrier was more than happy to eat any he found.

Bottom line is, removing the Amanos will be a good idea or they will be consigned to a dry death.

Gary


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

I should also say that is just what I've heard about riccardia. In past tanks it would grow like crazy, then start browning, then get algae all for no apparent reason...

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Crazygar said:


> The GBR's will clean around the nest and eat any fungused eggs. What you are seeing is natural parental behavior. Sounds like they might have nailed it this time.
> 
> As for the lighting, as already stated, dropping it back some percentage points can only help in the end.
> 
> ...


Yeah, so far seems pretty good now that it is well dimmed, still considering a bit more dimming, let's see!

Well yeah I probably ought to sort that out with the amanos, however I am toying around with the idea of building a custom lid/canopy thing from plexiglass (have my own workshop and can fab plexi reasonably well but at a hobbyist level) that would help them from accidentally jumping out, but also the idea was to prevent reflections from hitting the side of the tank so hard from the light at that very small corner from the wall at the left - really annoying how the corners edge is reflected there! Let's see what I can draw up and possibly execute!





gjcarew said:


> I should also say that is just what I've heard about riccardia. In past tanks it would grow like crazy, then start browning, then get algae all for no apparent reason...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


Well, curious to see what happens with mine, really hoping they don't succumb to algae or spontaneous death haha... plus that algae is quite expensive lol!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So a little video update today, the GBR parents are trying their hardest to keep their fry in a cluster down by a buce plant, there are a decent amount left but I suspect they won't make it very long as the neons are ready to swoop on straying fry, the parents try to keep them away but yeah that is a hard job with all those neons! Although they do a pretty good job guarding, saw only 3 get eaten during my observations during lunch time, must have been nearly 45min in front of the tank.

I tried injecting a bit of a fine "fry powder" near the cluster of fry but I dunno, might need to get infusioria or micro worms going if I ever want to try this for real - however then I would have to remove fry probably and get breeder tank going - not really sure if I have it in me haha!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Better view of them parenting after the moved the fry up a bit:


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Nice vid! One think I've learned as you alluded to is that one tank can't do it all. Depends what your goals are in the hobby. Everything looks healthy and pristine, good job!


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

I have an all epiphytes tank like yours with Anubias, trident Java fern and Buce. 

It’s not hard to breed GBR but hard to hatch and raise fry. What temp is in your tank. GBR needs warm temp in the 80s to thrive. Also, GH 10, kH 4 appear too high as fry need blackwater softness to thrive.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> Nice vid! One think I've learned as you alluded to is that one tank can't do it all. Depends what your goals are in the hobby. Everything looks healthy and pristine, good job!


Hehe, yeah indeed! The tank is doing pretty well right now, mostly just trying to get a handle on the algae and how to continue its retreat! Thanks a lot  



Tiger15 said:


> I have an all epiphytes tank like yours with Anubias, trident Java fern and Buce.
> 
> It’s not hard to breed GBR but hard to hatch and raise fry. What temp is in your tank. GBR needs warm temp in the 80s to thrive. Also, GH 10, kH 4 appear too high as fry need blackwater softness to thrive.


Nice, have a link to a journal? 

No, it doesn't seem so hard to get them to spawn, was pretty surprised to see free swimming fry today - that has been their doom though, as of this evening the parents have moved the very little that are left deeper into the java fern bush - will be surprised if any survive tomorrow! Alas the way of nature right..

I have talked with a few locals that have bred GBRs (got mine from one of them) and they have successfully raised fry to adulthood in our really really hard tap (22+ ish GH and high KH) water here so adaption is possible. My tank is at 28 Celsius (82-82.5 f if I remember correctly).


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

You are doing a great job with those fish! I love how more amazing they look when sporting their brooding colors! 

Hopefully you will be reporting fry soon. If you start to see "pits" in the tank then you might have free swimmers. Momma will lead them around and dig pits for them to reside in while she finds food.

Gary


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

andrewss said:


> I have talked with a few locals that have bred GBRs (got mine from one of them) and they have successfully raised fry to adulthood in our really really hard tap (22+ ish GH and high KH) water here so adaption is possible. My tank is at 28 Celsius (82-82.5 f if I remember correctly).


You are from Germany and got the German strain that has been genetically domesticated in hard water. In US fish farm, Rams, like discus, are bred only successfully in RO or rainwater soften water, though they can be raised in harder water.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Crazygar said:


> You are doing a great job with those fish! I love how more amazing they look when sporting their brooding colors!
> 
> Hopefully you will be reporting fry soon. If you start to see "pits" in the tank then you might have free swimmers. Momma will lead them around and dig pits for them to reside in while she finds food.
> 
> Gary


Thanks! I am trying! Plenty of time here at home during quarantine! 

Anyway, the fry are all gone, the neons were relentless and slowly picked off any explorers. It was kinda sad but its part of nature - well reality in close quarters with a "dither" fish like neons. My girlfriend and I are starting to now toy with the idea of starting a breeder tank in another room to grow out some of the fry once they are free swimming - not sure yet, not much of rush quite there yet.



Tiger15 said:


> You are from Germany and got the German strain that has been genetically domesticated in hard water. In US fish farm, Rams, like discus, are bred only successfully in RO or rainwater soften water, though they can be raised in harder water.


I live in Germany, from the US though 

Yeah I suppose it has, most all breeders I see listed locally here claim bred and kept in Berlin tap water (ie REALLY HARD) - I guess I can believe them now that it seems mine were quite eager to do it in still quite hard water conditions (the fry were free swimming and seemingly healthy until other circumstances ruined their chances) - anyway, I am still a bit nervous sinking GH/KH (very gradually) however the wild caught neons will certainly appreciate it, and I would only assume eventually the GBRs might as well although I don't quite understand how these fish adapt over some generations of local breeding.



As for today, a little update: we have just got a sudden cold front in Europe this week and I hadn't been paying attention to the weather so the other night I woke up and realized its really cold out but fell back asleep then in the early morning shut the bathroom window and office window since it was pulling in way tooo much cold air - then I realized the tank was down on temperature at lunch time! Worst timing though was that we received our new stand oven/stove yesterday as well and had to do a break in baking session with it to get the resin set and bake off any oils in the oven - which STINKS, that means we had to air the flat during colder weather, so basically the tank was at about 26 degrees for hours on end... the tank had been at 28 degrees normally. I uploaded a screenshot of my bluetooth temp probe to show the swing in temperature for this cold front - the GBRs were acting fine and hungry but definitely seemed to become quite pale yesterday! Hopefully they dont get sick! Luckily last night I was able to heat the kitchen and the temps are looking pretty ok now, should be stable at 28 here really soon!

Oh and here are a few photos of the kitchen, which is about finished besides some odds and ends, went with pretty cheap ikea stuff mostly, its a rental flat (normal here that you rent and then install kitchens). I couldn't quite fit it but my nano is also in the room, just to the far left in the corner out of frame. We don't have a living room here so we decided to make the kitchen into a bit of both (1 small sofa and the tanks).









Quite a swing, that little rise and fall in the middle was probably when we had to air out hardcore because of the oven, it was really smelly, like really bad give you a headache kind of levels of stink from the insulation in the oven curing I guess.









^ Before... that was the mess I inherited from the previous renters (long story)









^boo!









Much better!









Pretty decent sized kitchen!


















^ I stuck some of my floaters in that small bowl with some ro water, probably gonna list em as a gift here online for someone with a tank, I am slowly removing the floaters from the tank. Wondering if I should do something fun with that small bowl though..









^ our plant window setup, gonna tidy this up some as a small project, definitely need to continue planting some things, getting there slowly!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Well I am on a roll this morning haha and figured I would show you guys where my hobby has overflown, in the bathroom.. but now it is at least pretty well organized, really liking this compact metal shelving I got for my canisters and buckets and general water-change gear. 

I have 2x 20L canisters with taps that I can fill my graded bucket with to pour in my rectangular mix food-service container with lid. I do my RO and tap water mixes and pour it all in that 20L food-service container, then plug in my heater and air pump and let them go for a few hours or so. Because of the GBR's I have decided getting the water change water up to temp is a good idea, and figured the airpump doesnt hurt and also helps to stir the water some. I also add some seachem prime and seachem fresh trace to the mixtures. 

I do my mixtures in the large box like food-service container because pouring into it is easier, laying the heater down in it is easier and finally tossing in the pump I use to pump from it into the tank is possible/easier than using a canister shape or something, also having a fitting lid makes walking with the fairly heavy water change water a bit easier (due to splashing). I am still trying to do 2 or 3 ~20 liter WC's a week.

Right now I am still gradually increasing my RO ratio in my mix. Still the plan is to continue with some amount of tap water so I can get KH to a stable level without using additives. Once the transition process is over I will stick to a standard ratio of RO-TW mix and then I just have to decide if top offs should be with the same ratio mix or with straight RO water, not really sure or if it matters that much.









^ The RO unit fairly cleanly situated near the window, soon enough it will be joined by some houseplants in that bright windowsill. That 5L container is just where I keep my tap water for topping off my low-tech nano shrimp tank, RO water when on flows directly into the 20L canisters which I set in the tub to fill.









^ Decided to spend a little bit more at the hardware store so I could still use the RO unit and hand shower hose as well, just switch between the two with the small valve on the other side of the fittings.









^ Affordable and study metal shelving, looks pretty clean too. So far the heavy canisters feel pretty stable on the same shelf. The epsom salts are for human bathing haha 









^ Stiring is aided by the washing machine when it goes into the spin cycle function.. haha


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Kitchen looks much better! Sorry to hear about the fry, and yes, Neons and faster fish can decimate fry/eggs quicker than the parents can protect. Have you considering moving the Neons instead? The Rams are happy where they are.

Gary


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Crazygar said:


> Kitchen looks much better! Sorry to hear about the fry, and yes, Neons and faster fish can decimate fry/eggs quicker than the parents can protect. Have you considering moving the Neons instead? The Rams are happy where they are.
> 
> Gary


No kidding! The kitchen was a disaster with potential! Now its a really cozy hybrid kitche/living room!


Well I have heard that really the fry once free swimming are best fairly quickly taken from the parents, or if not within a week or two before they might spawn again (young pairs spawn pretty fast apparently). Anyway siphoning the fry would be pretty simple or something like that - well at least it sounds more simple than trying to catch all those neons in this tank! Dont know how I would manage that really! Likely we wont be trying anything until a few more spawns anyway - like in a few months maybe.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

hmm, not sure why but the pictures aren't coming through


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Strange, work ok on all my browsers and my android device


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

Yeah, its a Catch 22 (ha ha) for sure. Either way, you will have successive spawns and eventually you will have figured out how to rear the fry without too many losses. Keep doing what you are doing and success will be easier to attain.

Gary


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Crazygar said:


> Yeah, its a Catch 22 (ha ha) for sure. Either way, you will have successive spawns and eventually you will have figured out how to rear the fry without too many losses. Keep doing what you are doing and success will be easier to attain.
> 
> Gary


Well I kinda think there is nearly no chance for them in the tank with the neons but as mentioned maybe we will start a separate breeder tank but if we do that we are thinking then only about siphoning the fry out or something when they are free swimmers and before the neons decimate them (ie 24-48 hours after we saw them free swimming last time).



Anyway, today I had a few hours of working on the tank, took a while but the to-do list was pretty long.

- Filter cleaning and removal of old peat bag, addition of the rest of my container of Matrix to the bag of matrix already in the filter (enough room for this once the peat was gone). Also, removal of the old purigen (quite discolored from the paradoxical addition of peat in my filter those days haha). I will try to regen the old purigen with much caution due to hearing of some reports of bleach not being totally gone after regen.

- In and Out lines disassembled and pipe cleaned, SS hardware and skimmer cleaned as well. I found a little bit of rust near the threaded part of the bottom of my SS skimmer intake, very strange.

- Removal (not fun) of the adhesive backed black background film I had on the tank. I had to spot clean afterwards with food grade citrus juice to get some of the thankfully mild adhesive off the back glass (external side). 

- Installation of the customized in and outtake piping mounts, and fitting of the black plexi background sheet. 

-Starter dose of Stability and Pristine - will continue with them as degree of caution because of the cleaning and messing around in the filter.


So I snapped a few shots of the tank without a background, which looks quite good because of the white wall, they were also without the pipes from the back (were currently cleaning them). I think I really liked it without the black background - seemed more "trendy" or something, definitely more Aqua-Scaping style for sure. I didnt like that it kinda high lighted some of the (I think mostly dying or dead) bits of algae on many of my leaves, well maybe that is helpful for physical removal reasons actually...

Anyway, I only had a cut to size piece of black plexi and actually black bits on my modified pipe mounts, so I stayed with the plan. I also quite like the black background - however at least now due to using this fancy new style of velcro I can easily swap out the background sheet. 

Leads me to my biggest regret of the tank so far I think, using a foil like background (especially adhesive) - that was really annoying to remove haha! Finally I also have my pipes securely positions in with straight angles and without suction cups that let loose too often (really hoping this new velcro stuff holds well, seems like it should). My skimmer pipe was always swinging into the rocks and never holding a proper straight angle with the tank, now it is very secure - same goes for the sprayer, it used to pop off every few days and I had been resorting to zip ties for both pipes, really annoying (was pulling the old black film off the glass as well). 



So if anyone wants to weigh in and vote about the background:

1. Stay with black
2. Milky or Frosted
3. No background


I am still not sure what to vote even myself, the black is easiest in two ways: grime on the back glass is way less visible (this scape is hard to clean the back glass with) and pipes/lines/cords are all hidden away totally. The white/milky/etc background certainly highlights more of the hardscape in a nice way though! There also could be a point about maybe the fish feeling a bit more safe when they want to hide in the back with the glass there being totally opaque/black.


And now a bunch of pix: (also please comment if my photos aren't displaying)









































































^ Cut down the standard ones so I could rotate them for distance and not have anything sticking out from behind the tank on the far edges. And yes I did this yesterday in the shop haha, don't have that workshop in my flat here 









^ All glued (solvented) up with length to add more the velcro stuff down at the bottom to secure a hold for straightening them out.




































^ I had to scramble to find something to wedge the plexi in against the tank so I didnt have to velcro up at the top much (would then see from in the tank) - these little dense foam sanding blocks actually worked perfectly for it as an emergency solution. I will have to come up with something more elegant later, nobody can see them so whatever for now.









^ All finished after a couple hours or so!

And yes... all that trouble just to hide those pipe brackets from view, I thought they looked terrible in their normal use riding on the top of the edge of the glass.


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## Crazygar (Nov 16, 2006)

I am regretting the black background on my tank as well. One day, when I have to move it for whatever reason, I can peel off the background currently (it's plastidip, comes off in one shot) and replace it with some frosted white window adhesive.. May even work on a small backlight project for fun.

Gary


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

i think the SS pipes would look better with the no background look. They're would be less contrast and you would have MORE contrast with the dark wood. Either way, the tank is really nice.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Crazygar said:


> I am regretting the black background on my tank as well. One day, when I have to move it for whatever reason, I can peel off the background currently (it's plastidip, comes off in one shot) and replace it with some frosted white window adhesive.. May even work on a small backlight project for fun.
> 
> Gary


I'm not really regretting it, was just nice to finally see it without the black on, still pretty happy with the black but the no or frosted/milky background does look very nice too. A custom backlighting panel is also an interesting idea I might consider however its the kinda thing I am not sure I want to invest in because I might not really like it. For now I am just really happy the adhesive film is off the tank and now panels (plexi) are a nice solution I can easily swap out and incorporate pipe/hardware mounting to!



Asteroid said:


> i think the SS pipes would look better with the no background look. They're would be less contrast and you would have MORE contrast with the dark wood. Either way, the tank is really nice.


Ah right the SS pipes do blend in nicely withe the no background or light background, good point there. I liked how the middle "cave" areas were kinda highlighted by the no background - I did almost find the wood itself almost became too dominate though, the main thick trunk part of it is already quite borderline massive for the scape/tank I feel so that is one plus of the black, it kind of mutes the size of the wood I feel like. 

Hard decision! Maybe I will just cut a clear/frosty piece of plexi one day and do the swap, like next time I decide to clean the pipes.


Thanks for all the input and positivity guys!


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## sm1ke (Jun 30, 2016)

Personally, I like the black background on your tank, but I would agree that a frosted white would be a welcome change. I painted a frosted white background on one of my tanks. It turned out ok, but I wish a had painted a few more layers on as it it still too "see-through" for my liking. My vote goes to frosted white.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Yeah, change could be good, like I said I will consider it more easily now that my background panel system is in place and I dont have to peel anything annoying anymore. Still liking the black so no rush!


That tank has nice proportions! Well, I guess it would be annoying to tape it all off again but I guess you could spray on another layer or two to frost it more?


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So I did some water testing today and got these results:


NO3: 3 (almostttt looking like maybe 1)
PO4: <0.02 (maybe 0.05)
K: ~ 20 mg/L 


NO3 is really quite low, as well as PO4 - very low, almost none existant apparently. I dose my NPK and Iron+ ferts daily, 1.5ml of NPK and 1.5ml of Iron+ which is recommended on the label for "lower" light with CO2... I actually had dosed NPK and Iron+ like at 3 or 4pm today and did this series of tests at about 7:30PM FYI. Finally, for whatever reason, K is so actually a bit high, 5-15 mg/L is more the ideal range. I guess it isn't so high and has to be quite high to cause a problem. 

So as a kind of noob to ferts I think I ought to dose higher NPK - or at least N and P I guess individually... what do you all think? Would my frequent smallish water changes and frequent cleanings might be really stunting my livestocks contribution of nutrients to the water? Dunno, the plants look pretty good but I honestly cant say I have tons of reference really. I do have fairly persistent algae that tends to grow on leaf edges so I have heard maybe higher N and P could help that actually? I am a bit wary because the bulk of my plant mass is quite slow growing and I dont want to just feed my algae!



PH: 6.8 (at 7pm so after a full day of gas, my 20mg drop checker was nearly yellow today actually as I increased co2 a bit lately). Need to test degased water tomorrow!

KH: 5

GH: 14


So my KH and GH haven't changed since about a week of trying the new standard 12L RO 6L Tap mixture. Yesterday would have actually been the 3rd change with this mixture. So nearly 36L of RO has gotten in the tank in that amount of time and not much hardness has changed. I think I might try to only top off now with pure RO - that and be patient that the WCs will slowly soften the tank.

My goal is somewhere in the range of 3-4 KH and 6-10 GH


Soooo any input about my values (particularly the NPK stuff) would be really appreciated! Also any input/experience about using RO water to soften an established tank would also be really appreciated!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I would definitely increase N&P. 

Even with "slow-growers" under co2 they will be uptaking much more. Aren't they pearling? If yes, pretty fast photosynthesis. I'm not one to believe high levels of dosed macros cause algae. What' the difference if no3 is 3 or 30? Wouldn't both levels be appetizing to algae? I had very little plant mass in my tank when I started and I was doing regular EI numbers resulting in no3 being 40-80ppm and I had no visible algae.


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

Do you plants look like they need NO3 and PO4? If not, I'd leave them be. They can do a lot of excess uptake over the course of the day, that doesn't necessarily mean they need more of those nutrients.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## Pgrady479 (May 17, 2020)

I would suggest gobies


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> I would definitely increase N&P.
> 
> Even with "slow-growers" under co2 they will be uptaking much more. Aren't they pearling? If yes, pretty fast photosynthesis. I'm not one to believe high levels of dosed macros cause algae. What' the difference if no3 is 3 or 30? Wouldn't both levels be appetizing to algae? I had very little plant mass in my tank when I started and I was doing regular EI numbers resulting in no3 being 40-80ppm and I had no visible algae.


Well, the plants in the higher parts of the tank are pearling some, the trident java fern pearls quite a lot, actually even the lower placed mini java ferns as well, the buces dont pearl soooo much but some of the higher ones do. Pearling now is certainly a bit less since the light got turned down in intensity the last few weeks. Well the thing is, even so I could perhaps give it a try - I mean I already have a bit of an algae problem, don't want to make it worse but then again plenty of people seem to say that maybe deficiencies can drive algae as well. 

Leads me to my next point, I really need to properly ID my type of algae lol!



gjcarew said:


> Do you plants look like they need NO3 and PO4? If not, I'd leave them be. They can do a lot of excess uptake over the course of the day, that doesn't necessarily mean they need more of those nutrients.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


I would kinda say yes they look like they do, however I lack enough experience to really be that confident in that appraisal haha!



Pgrady479 said:


> I would suggest gobies


Hehe, thanks for the input but we are well past the point of adding any other fish to the tank (except maybe a few Oto's  )


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## Ventchur (Apr 29, 2018)

andrewss said:


> Leads me to my next point, I really need to properly ID my type of algae lol!


Looks like mild staghorn algae, no?


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Ventchur said:


> Looks like mild staghorn algae, no?


Sometimes it looks like staghorn, sometimes it looks more like bba I feel like... most of the time I really cant decide what it is lol! Maybe I have both? I dunno ugh this algae thing is annoying!

I was thinking maybe it could be interesting to do the alcohol test to see if it turns red/pink to determine further about the ID.


Today I ordered individual N and P (already had K individually but it is still actually sealed). So I plan to start to raise my values. I also got another drop checker to maybe play around with my co2 to see what it says, got 30mg/L fluid too, so I might try to go more for 30mg/L than my 20mg test I have in the tank since forever. 

Finally I decided to get a small hydor powerhead pump thing and maybe get flow out from the back area of the tank, think maybe getting some more flow in might be good, just gotta find a good spot for it that doesn't turn into an eye sore otherwise I will just return it lol!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

If your low on N, there really isn't any reason not to add more. You want to be preventive not reactive. Once you see a deficiency on a plant, uptake has slowed, there is dying plant tissue and the release of ammonia and thus the algae. You want to prevent the spores from developing in the first place.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> If your low on N, there really isn't any reason not to add more. You want to be preventive not reactive. Once you see a deficiency on a plant, uptake has slowed, there is dying plant tissue and the release of ammonia and thus the algae. You want to prevent the spores from developing in the first place.




Right well, I'm on it now haha! I now have a individual bottles of N-P-K and Iron+

I have 2 days in now on increased dosage, I will post what ferts I am using and their concentrations later on in the week when I am less busy and have more water testing data, anyway I did a quick test last night on some parameters:

Quickie results after 2 days of higher NPK dosing:

KH: 4
GH: 11 (slowly going down)
PH: Degassed 7.8 
NO3: 3 or 5 mg/L (slightly up from old dosing)


*Like I said, in the coming week or so I will be increasing ferts dosage and testing water, hopefully can dial in a good dosage quickly. I have been trying to educate myself about daily NPK dosing with slow growers and perhaps even sensitive fish, my GBR's surely don't want sooo much N in the water column but I have decent (albeit slow grower) plant mass in the tank and assume I can still dial in fairly decent dosing in this tank, just want to be cautious with the GBR's, anyway some reading on this subject has been helpful:

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1143146-nitrate-problem.html



Annnyway, here are some pictures from yesterday from some of the plants showing deficiencies, any input on what they are displaying appreciated!


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Big pieces of lava rock will also start developing colonies of denitrifying anaerobic bacteria in them after a couple months. Usually around 6mo the nitrogen conversion rate will stabilize.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

DaveKS said:


> Big pieces of lava rock will also start developing colonies of denitrifying anaerobic bacteria in them after a couple months. Usually around 6mo the nitrogen conversion rate will stabilize.


So I will basically have a reef tank style filtration  haha probably not enough flow for that tho


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Hey everyone, just a small photo update, still haven't done all the water testing I wanted to yet, been busy but I should be able to do it in the next couple days finally! 

In the first few pix I show the 2nd drop checker I installed with 30mg fluid, so have both 20mg and 30mg, both hidden in the back, I circled where I can just barely see the readings from the front of the tank through the java fern and wood, its not very big but it is plenty - nice to have em in the tank without having the eye sore aspect of them.

Then some pix of the GBR pair, the female (Deborah haha) is about to lay eggs again it seems, funny how different she starts to act, already getting a bit aggressive and Jer (the male) starts being more respectful and less bullying - like she's not gonna take his [censored][censored][censored][censored] so easy anymore haha, I say this cuz lately hes been a bit of a bully when feeding especially, but it has definitely been less since she started to be in the breeding mode.









































































and now the last few during the end of the day here, the sunset part of the light-cycle, really love how the tank looks with the lights extremely low and only on RGB, plus the lower ambient light of the day ending helps a lot. The green neons also look really really good in low light at the end of the day, they really pop!


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

andrewss said:


> So I will basically have a reef tank style filtration  haha probably not enough flow for that tho


Actually lack of flow (delivery of oxygenated water pushing into rocks center through pores) will increase the area of anaerobic activity in the center of rock.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Decided to show my WC setup, was able to do a 18L WC in 11 minutes (actual total of the whole thing start to finish) so that is pretty good, started using a stronger pump and soldered on a switch to make the process much easier, also the tube holder for the glass made everything that much easier as well. I have 2 tubes, one longer one for the pump out to the kitchen sink (takes only 2 mins or so to pump out about 17-18L) then a shorter one to return from my mixing container of 28c warm and oxygenated WC water. The whole thing is really stress free and fast, only effort is carrying the WC water from the bathroom into the kitchen but that isnt so bad. I wish I was doing this with my last decently sized tank, really much better than **** buckets! Some photos for demonstration:


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## cheesesteak (May 21, 2020)

Beautiful tank! I love the sunken roots look.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

cheesesteak said:


> Beautiful tank! I love the sunken roots look.


Thanks for the positive input! Me too, haha! I wonder how long that DW will last, most all the roots/branches are pretty thick so I suppose it will take a few years before it degrades much, though I wonder if GBR temps accelerate that. Anyway, when and if it ever needs to be replaced I think I will be cutting and assembling various pieces into a more "perfect" or custom shape, the piece as is very good but I think a bit thick/imposing at the "stump" somehow


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## dow (May 6, 2020)

Great aquarium and build log, andrewss. I'm planning on setting up a 40 breeder in the next couple of months, and every bit of info I can pick up will be put to use. Thanks again for sharing your build log.

dow


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

great idea of setting up the pump to do the water change! it'll definitely keep the tank running well if water changes are simplified to do on a regular basis 

yeah, carrying buckets is a pain. is there a way that you can run a very small water around the back of the couch to provide feed water and I think you mentioned the tank is in the kitchen so you'd have access to a drain right?


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## ryubui (Jul 14, 2014)

Nice set up! Nice Rams!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

dow said:


> Great aquarium and build log, andrewss. I'm planning on setting up a 40 breeder in the next couple of months, and every bit of info I can pick up will be put to use. Thanks again for sharing your build log.
> 
> dow


Thank you! Be sure to start a journal then!



monkeyruler90 said:


> great idea of setting up the pump to do the water change! it'll definitely keep the tank running well if water changes are simplified to do on a regular basis
> 
> yeah, carrying buckets is a pain. is there a way that you can run a very small water around the back of the couch to provide feed water and I think you mentioned the tank is in the kitchen so you'd have access to a drain right?


It is no new idea but yeah it has been helpful! I'm confused what you mean? I have two tubes, one long one short. The long one I can secure and feed into my sink for WC out. For WC in I bring my ~20L container in from the washroom, I premix my WC water and set it on an airstone and heater (also a tiny bit of prime and some Fresh Trace) to get up to temp and air out a bit before pumping it in with the shorter hose. I do this because if the water was too cold it would upset the GBRs and anyway the tank is 28 so water has to be pretty warm to not fluctuate much. 



ryubui said:


> Nice set up! Nice Rams!


Thank you! They are quite a flashy fish!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Hey everyone! Been a while since I have updated here, not so much to report really except that the algae fight goes on and has I think finally turned a bit in my favor! I think a big help was my plants getting a bit healthier with the increase in ferts a couple weeks ago. 

Still gotta keep up with it, anyway a few days ago was my last substantial trimming, had some die-off in the javafern bush, some bits that maybe didn't take too well to the light reduction and cover from the congo fern? Also maybe got weak from the old fert dosage. Anyway, things have bounced back pretty well. I also did further "bucket" treatments of some of the plants in that are easy to remove, I did soaks in only 3% H202 solution followed up by a blast of high dosed Excel. Buces hold up really quite well to that abuse, lose some leaves though.. anyway one of my anubias that got that treatment lost more than a couple leaves from that and I am paying attention to see if it further declines. After that the algae turns quite pale and dead, it appears that maybe the amanos then finally start to eat the dead bits and the treated plants appear quite nicely cleaned up after everything!

The photos show my changes to the light cycle, I have a very short peak at like 3-5pm or so then tapers off, at like 730 it gets very dim and "sunset" then goes to a dominate blues/greens cycle for dusk part that lasts until 9:30pm or so, really like the blue green LED effect with the green neons especially! 





























More updates coming in soon as I have a bit more time to spare these days again!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So here is a small video update, you can see the male GBR has become even more territorial and mean to his partner, he often chases her quite intensely if she comes forward in the tank, however I have noticed it seems to affect him if he notices me near the tank because I guess he thinks about feeding, if I stand by the door and he hasnt noticed me in the room I often see him tolerate her more often but he still nips at her a bit, so far I haven't seen any issues with her behavior except that she of course runs from him, but she still will ignore him for food and feeds fine, her coloring often is "submissive" these days though which is too bad - I am not sure what kind of stress this might be causing her... any GBR experts can let me know what they think about chasing in a 20g like mine with a supposed pair that has mated before. I also must say that the first couple months he was no where near as territorial with her - even now he will even go at the neons during feeding but not really much at all.


The video is pretty alright quality, today is stormy so the ambient light is at least subdued. More photos and a few testings to follow soon!


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Hey everyone, so another update, mostly just about algae yet again... well I havent been posting or updating much lately due to distractions but I haven't be neglecting the tank much at all, the tank is 80L but probably only 70ish Liters actually, anyway I have been changing about 40-50 Liters a week now for quite a while. Been hitting about 2.5-3ML of excel daily as well. I've been individually increasing my N P K ferts as well, gotta do another round of water testing soon to see how that has affected the balance but for now I would say the plants are looking quite happy with the changes. 

I did a couple very "precise" trims lately that take hours to do, a taking out dead bits and siphoning and turkey basting parts of the lava rock hardscape to get out mulm and muck. I realized it seems that my period of really backing down with the light and putting tons of floaters in really affected my trident ferns and I got a lot of dead bits in the high covered areas with the leaves pointing out and in from the middle level seemed to get all the energy. After a few more days I will be trimming the trident fern in the top left a bit back from the buces and mosses it has started to really cover up, hopefully that also helps it to grow out and up where it used to be thicker. I also removed the majority of the floaters as now I think my light period has been better optimized and things are getting more mature... hopefully it works out!

A bigger change was I finally pretty much gave up on my hygrophila pinnatifida and removed all but one stalk that still felt pretty healthy with very small growth at its base, everything else was not looking so good since the lighting changes a while back and I just couldnt get em to shake the small tufts of algae growing on the leaf edges of mature leaves. Maybe I will try hygrophila pinnatifida again after things settle a bit more, priority is still algae maintenance and this plant seemed a chronic problem for my tank. The buces and ferns seem to be a lot happier with teh current conditions and new growth seems to stave off algae development which is great! Even my flame moss melted on the right side from its rock which surprised me, I would imagine it was really trying to get to the light from down there though.

The whole of the tank esp on the left is in a good state, the right side almost seems to point to possible flow issues and the corresponding lesser co2 concentrations... anyone have any info for how I could solve that without swapping my main filter? I recently installed a powerhead like from a reef up near the outflow to spread it around a bit but it doesnt seem to help the right side of the tank just under it... where would you recommend I try to increase flow, in what direction? I want it to be more discreet so I am thinking hidden in the lava rocks on the right side kind of centered more so pushing from right center to the right wall to deflect off that a bit I guess... dunno! The general idea with flow is co2 distribution but I have heard more flow will probably help my algae issues quite a bit considering the kind I have and how relatively weak my filter is (would go for a bigger one if I could do it over again but I made the stand to size and I can't hide a bigger filter in there unfortunately... unless I did 2x of the same filter haha). Ideas for the right side of the tank flow wise and maybe even plant wise would be appreciated!

TLDR:

Algae is annoying and I am doing a lot to fight it since weeks now, kinda winning the battle it seems and the tank is running quite well for a medium maintenance tank (I like to keep things tidy and my GBRs need clean clean clean). Any input appreciated if you can be bothered to read my essay haha!

PICTURES!!!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I doubt flow is a big issue especially with the add'l powerhead in 20g. Is the pinnatifida under direct light? I have some and once I cut away the bolbitis and it got direct light it took off?

What has been and is your current light cycle. How much PAR do you think you have?


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> I doubt flow is a big issue especially with the add'l powerhead in 20g. Is the pinnatifida under direct light? I have some and once I cut away the bolbitis and it got direct light it took off?
> 
> What has been and is your current light cycle. How much PAR do you think you have?


Yeah, but the powerhead was only in for about a week but I took it out and sent it back today because I couldnt take how much of an eyesore it was. I replaced it today with a smaller internal pump/filter that finally seems to be about the right fit for that corner of the tank, pictures will explain it better now, flow seems pretty good, gonna see if that direction helps circulate that kind of dead part of the tank flow wise under the inflow. 

The pinnatifida was under direct light and was growing quite well for a while but after algae panic and so on I think the lighting changes didn't make it happy and it started doing worse however it always seemed a bit of a magnet for the staghorn so I decided to finally get rid of the bulk of it except for a small stalk that didnt seem melted or infested... see what happens with that now that I have slowly been increasing light period again and have been dosing more ferts.. plus thinking the internal filter might help in that part of the tank now. 

PAR... no idea, might be worth taking a look into that. Light cycle is still modest, only about 5 hours at 25-33% with fairly slow ramp up and down cycles, can upload a few comparisons screenshots of my lighting period over the months!

Here are some new photos from tonight after the additional pump swap and so on, anyway interested to see how it turns out; gotta get the water test in this weekend too.


BTW I decided to grab a Twinstar off someone local that had it in a nice tank with RO so it should be nice and clean after a few months in use, curious if it might help me beat my algae... but if it is too ugly or doesnt seem to do anything after a few weeks I will try to sell it again but anyway at least getting it used at half price feels better than investing in it new considering it is a bit controversial as to its affect.




































*** I added a small piece of plexiglas to shroud light from reflecting from the weird corner in my wall there which was causing an annoying visible line from the side... trying it out to see if it annoys me or if I might make a larger shroud or hood


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

I have had better luck with preventing dead spots by putting the filter intake and outlet on the same side of the tank right next to each other. If they'll fit with your surface skimmer that may be worth a try.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

gjcarew said:


> I have had better luck with preventing dead spots by putting the filter intake and outlet on the same side of the tank right next to each other. If they'll fit with your surface skimmer that may be worth a try.


I always do that. Everything on the left side except my in-tank diffuser. So you get the lily smashing off the front glass and going around the tank back to the intake. My current tank is only 12G, but it's 3 feet long and all i have is the eheim 2213. There is no "visible flow on the right side but I could see the co2 bubbles slightly being moved about. I don't have alot of surface tension so the drop checker stays green all night and goes to pretty much yellow by mid-day. 

Again i don't put much effort into flow/gph, It's almost impossible to me that co2/dissolved ferts won't move about in water. I had a previous 4-footer (70+ gallons) with an eheim 2215. My effective turnover was 1. The tank was pristine and no deficiencies on either side of the tank. Most issues in my world are light/co2/maintenance.


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

Asteroid said:


> My current tank is only 12G, but it's 3 feet long and all i have is the eheim 2213.


Fun fact: you haven't posted a full tank shot since December 2019. Show the people what they want to see! [emoji6]

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

gjcarew said:


> Fun fact: you haven't posted a full tank shot since December 2019. Show the people what they want to see! [emoji6]
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


LOL, wow it's been 6 months. I figured people were bored with it and I'd let some of the new guys get the attention. Funny that you said that because the tank just turned one year old, so I'l have to get some pics up. Made some changes, hopefully it photographs well.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

gjcarew said:


> I have had better luck with preventing dead spots by putting the filter intake and outlet on the same side of the tank right next to each other. If they'll fit with your surface skimmer that may be worth a try.


I've thought about trying that sometime, I think I could maybe pull it off but it would be tight with the hardscape on the right side (wouldnt do it on the left side since it is a view side). Might think about it but I kinda doubt I will since I put so much effort into a nice mount system for my pipes that are hidden in the back wall but if on the side they would be nasty if you step to the right side of the tank by the kitchen table. 



Asteroid said:


> I always do that. Everything on the left side except my in-tank diffuser. So you get the lily smashing off the front glass and going around the tank back to the intake. My current tank is only 12G, but it's 3 feet long and all i have is the eheim 2213. There is no "visible flow on the right side but I could see the co2 bubbles slightly being moved about. I don't have alot of surface tension so the drop checker stays green all night and goes to pretty much yellow by mid-day.
> 
> Again i don't put much effort into flow/gph, It's almost impossible to me that co2/dissolved ferts won't move about in water. I had a previous 4-footer (70+ gallons) with an eheim 2215. My effective turnover was 1. The tank was pristine and no deficiencies on either side of the tank. Most issues in my world are light/co2/maintenance.


Well I think I really keep up with maintenance, though as mentioned my light period has been really tinkered with over the months, I think that is where I have run into trouble since I have such a panic response to algae haha. It might be worth trying to get PAR readings and also I ought to try degassed water testing to see what ph drop I am getting these days. 

Have you all noticed much difference with dropcheckers placement in a tank as to their readings? I figure the height in the water column makes a difference but wonder if areas of flow do as well. Might test it out a bit.



gjcarew said:


> Fun fact: you haven't posted a full tank shot since December 2019. Show the people what they want to see! [emoji6]
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


I believe I have made this complaint recently as well!



Asteroid said:


> LOL, wow it's been 6 months. I figured people were bored with it and I'd let some of the new guys get the attention. Funny that you said that because the tank just turned one year old, so I'l have to get some pics up. Made some changes, hopefully it photographs well.


Nah, post more updates! Perfect weekend timing for a few photos then huh


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So I have a bit of a question for you all here:

I am remaining quite surprised how quickly my flow progressively weakens on my external filter. I have already did full pipe brush cleanings 2 or 3 times since it has been running (since about beginning of March) - also have cleaned out the filter itself a quite a few times by now. I dont really think it is clogged with too much media, but maybe... anyway I read some info about my filter and that it might be smart to switch around the media order but I have the smallest one and can't really do that haha, so anyway if my aquarium stand was a normal type I would just probably be swapping out the filter for a bigger one (maybe even a different model completely). 

Problem is: I cant fit anything taller than that filter in my stand, it is already VERY tight in there and can barely operate the prime hand pump as is. 

My idea: I checked into it and I can swap in the e702 pump head onto my e402 body and just try running it with the more powerful pump, like the flow is fine when everything is newly cleaned and so on but slowly and consistently really loses power, I think since last cleaning it has only been about a month. Does this sound like a stupid idea, are there any problems it could cause or do you think it might not even help at all?

I am curious if maybe I have a bit much media in the filter but I dunno its not much, essentially just added purigen bag in there (swapped in some matrix as well but that was a swap not addition). 



Sooo if anyone has an input about my idea to swap filter heads for more power let me know, also any input about how quickly your filters seem to lose flow would be interesting. Perhaps the filter was bit small to begin with, or really most of this issue is due to the sponges inside being too mucky and I am not cleaning them enough, how do you all do that? I guess the common diagnosis might really be that the tank is too stocked and or I feed too much, perhaps that is the core problem here really. I mean 5 amanos, 15-17 Green Neons, and a pair of GBR's is quite a bit for a 20-21g tank with a smallish external filter...


Heres the filter I have: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B06Y3SSKYD/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A8KICS1PHF7ZO&psc=1

I have the e402 and want to swap the e702 on it (height issues in stand).


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

So, I decided to go ahead with it and just ordered a "amazon warehouse" e702 filter which was pretty affordable, I'll try to sell the remaining parts here to get back a bit of the money spent on 2x filters for this tank... really wish I didn't go with the e402 - anyway, without cleaning anything or doing anything it was instantly much stronger (always had to clean to try to get flow back after a week or two since it always reduced quite rapidly after being freshly cleaned). Well that was 4W to 9W so I guess expected really haha...

I was at 'full throttle' with the e402 and barely making ripples after a week or two of slow down, swapped head and full on is pretty much nearly too much flow, turned down a bit and I am still getting more flow than max on the weaker pump, judging off looking at how peoples out-flows look on youtube and so on I would say my flow is more comparable (can see how far down the water is being sucked into the out pipe). Anyway the biggest part is that I can now expect to have consistent flow for longer... much better.

Hope there arent any draw backs I am not understanding by putting a stronger pump on a relatively small external filter body.

Besides that I was curious if anyone had input on what this decay on my trident would be, I have assumed for a while it is lack of light since it hits areas that were really deprived for a while from the floaters and drastic light reduction from a while back after I got some algae blooming... any input appreciated! Also I tossed in the Twinstar unit and have let it run a couple days, obviously no meaningful input on that yet but anyway I figured getting a used one was worth the experiment. So far I can only really say the white body and grey cable are horrible haha, would be much easier to tolerate if it was black for my tank at least. Otherwise the foggy effect when cycling on is kind of novel I guess, wonder if it really does sterilze like they say it does. Anyway thanks for reading 

Pix:


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Hopefully the add'l horsepower will help. I'm still more in the organic/light mgmt camp, but anything is possible. The trident looks pretty healthy, I would remove any damaged/dying leaves and see what new growth looks like. Trimming is under-rated with ferns/anubias. Always good idea to remove a leaves to get new growth going.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Well, not quite a proper update yet but I decided to post a few evening pix of after "sunset" and yeah anyway you can see the trident has taken over a lot of the tank, I think it looks pretty good like that but actually has choked out a bunch of the buces nearby 

Anyway, I have not been quite as good with the tank but still get at least one 18-19L WC in per week, usually 2 but anyway for a week and a half my GF's brother was visiting and somehow around then (2 months ago) I missed a WC or two and I guess somehow during that period the tank really kind of took a nose-dive with algae coming back, even some new greenspot style kind... also strangely timed with the twinstar install which is very weird. Anyway, since then I decided to dial back the lights very very slightly... nothing much has changed, the algae hasnt really gotten worse, it is still a bit of a light case but persistent at the moment. Very curious what the winter light cycle will do for the tank, curious is the ambient light from the nearby window does a lot to promote algae. 

Anyway, during that bloom I also got a good bit of die off especially with the buces. Maybe the trident taking so much light is also an issue... no idea really what was the culprit... granted we were getting a massive europe wide heatwave during those times and I have no idea what the tank temps were cuz I was too busy to monitor it but yeah probably quite hot, I decided also to drop the temps from 28 to 27 about a month or so ago - the GBR's don't seem to mind at all, they actually just laid eggs yesterday again. 

I'll post more pix and a bit more detail in the next days! Been well distracted with other things!


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## robmcd (Sep 8, 2020)

Looks great! Well done!!


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## doug105! (Aug 2, 2016)

I like it was well!

May I offer a suggestion.....move the light closer to front of aquarium and
It won’t show as big of a dark area in the front.

DougN


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## sm1ke (Jun 30, 2016)

Hi andrewss, tank is looking great!!

If I may also offer a suggestion.. I'm not sure if it was your intention, but the smaller detail rocks in the foreground are spaced too evenly apart. IMO this makes it look unnatural. If you bunch up some of the bigger rocks and smaller fragments, it should look more natural. An example is shown below, in the centermost sandy area:


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

robmcd said:


> Looks great! Well done!!


Thank you 



doug105! said:


> I like it was well!
> 
> May I offer a suggestion.....move the light closer to front of aquarium and
> It won’t show as big of a dark area in the front.
> ...


Yeah that has gotten more exaggerated as the ferns have grown out, really ought to do that soon!



sm1ke said:


> Hi andrewss, tank is looking great!!
> 
> If I may also offer a suggestion.. I'm not sure if it was your intention, but the smaller detail rocks in the foreground are spaced too evenly apart. IMO this makes it look unnatural. If you bunch up some of the bigger rocks and smaller fragments, it should look more natural. An example is shown below, in the centermost sandy area:


Good idea, yeah those rocks get knocked about quite a bit during WC and all that, will try to arrange them a bit more like that actually next time  thanks for the input.




So, not much of an update for the scape or plants (really really need to trim and spot treat algae). More on that later.

However last week, or was it the week before last... lol I had another GBR spawn, the first one in a while that survived the first night after laying. So my male became really aggro to everyone in the tank after this one and especially to the GBR female, he never let her come close to the nest. Anyway a few days later the fry started to swim a bit free and I called a local breeder over to take the fry home to grow them out since I dont really want to myself nor have the spare tank for that. To do so we had to net the male to get to the eggs and right when the female sees him out of the tank before we know it she darted to the nest and started eating the babies! She ate probably nearly half the fry before I could net her out. 

Luckily there were still quite a few fry left, the breeder got like 50-75 or so fry in the end. Yesterday he sent me a little update, the are lookin good and newly placed in a 30L cube tank to grow out some more! Curious to see how they look in the next weeks!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

andrewss said:


> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol! Excellent! despite that murderous mother there were still quite a few babies left for the breeder to raise. Looks like a healthy bunch! Keep us posted on your progress.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Hey everyone, so another little update today, a few days ago I finally decided to get some Oto's for cleaning, I actually really like Oto's as well but I didnt go with them earlier because I was concerned about the tank already being on the heavily stocked side but I couldnt help but go for them due to the persistent algae. They have been in about a week and it seems like it has had some effect already which is promising. I only added 5 but that definitely has my tanked in overstocked territory however I think due to my pretty strict cleaning routine it ought to be ok. Doing at least 2x WC weekly for 19L of a 80L tank which has a lot of substrate and hardscape in it so actual fill quantity must decently under the 80L dimensions I guess. Anyway lets see how it goes!

Here are some recent photos of the tank at full light (in my max ~30-30% cycle) and then ramping down later in the day - I prefer the tank in lower light for photos and viewing. I recently removed some plants and trimmed up a bit, still think I ought to trim the trident fern back a bit more but its hard to commit to where I should. I fully removed the congo fern as well it was just being too much of a light hog and the leaves kept getting bigger and bigger. The die off from a couple months back has kinda stopped but some of the buces are really still not doing so well, some better than others and some pretty plagued by algae however the Otos have been snacking away so maybe they will benefit from that.

A couple full tank videos as well to see them in action a bit!

Thanks for stopping by!























































^ did the slow drip tech for acclimating the 5 Otos


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

And here is a small post to highlight the persistent algae problem, the hardscape has a decent amount of BBA on it I guess, but I am not sure what these compact vivid green tufts growing are... they actually arent the most unsightly things compared to the BBA looking stuff right by it just by virtue of the nasty color of BBA and so on. I guess on the trident ferns over the last few months a kind of green spot algae has taken hold though its not sooo bad and I find the stuff that grows on the edges worse, which might be a mild staghorn growing but I am not so certain. The buce in the one photo is one of the hardest hit single plants in the tank, I might start doing H202 baths on easy to treat rock mounted plants like that one soon.

Thanks for looking and if anyone has input about the types of algae I am dealing with and any personal experience on them it would be much appreciated


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Good to see you back with an update! Overall tanks looks very nice. 

I think the pics of your java fern and buce clearly demonstrate that algae can and does attack "Healthy Plants" At least slow growers anyway, because other than the algae those do look healthy. 

What is your current light, water change, filter media specifics.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> Good to see you back with an update! Overall tanks looks very nice.
> 
> I think the pics of your java fern and buce clearly demonstrate that algae can and does attack "Healthy Plants" At least slow growers anyway, because other than the algae those do look healthy.
> 
> What is your current light, water change, filter media specifics.


 @Asteroid hi! yeah, perhaps that is the case, a lot of it is the curse of slow growers perhaps. Thinking also being so close to a high sunlight window in the summer really hurt my chances as well. 

Light is pretty short now, I'll try to update a shot of the cycle but its about a 7-8hr cycle but it ramps up and down really slow, like the first hour is like 5-10% then the last two is the same so its like 4 or 4.5 hrs of decent light: RGBW all maxing at like 20-30% respectively... I'll get a screenshot up soon though!

Filter is just the stock sponges but anyway a bottle of matrix replaced the standard beads/rocks and I have purigen in there religiously now for like 6+ months. I recently upped the filter head to the size up but kept the canister the same since it only fit in the stand that way. I clean the filter and lines quite frequently as well though. 

So my to-do is: have another look and post screens of my light cycle AND I need to do a round of water tests because I haven't had the test kit out in a while and really havent been checking up on it lately despite quite an increase in plant growth... I still do similar ferts.


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