# At my wits end... UPDATE!!!! 4/15/13



## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

... I am once again pagued with algae. BBA, BGA, Brown hair, and green spot.

The tank:


125g
FX5, 5' spray bar
Koralia 1050
HIGH flow co2. MOSTER 3" rex reactor. Fish are stressed by midday
25 cardinals, 2 otos, 6 zebra nerites, maybe/possibly 6 amanos
Low plant mass. HC carpet, DHG, Fiss(ALOT), Bylxa jap.
Dosing the following"
M- 1/2 CSM+B
T- 1/8 tsp KH2PO4, 3/4 KNO3
W- 1/2 CSM+B
T- 1/8 tsp KH2PO4, 3/4 KNO3
F- 1/2 CSM+B
S- rest
S- 50% WC, 1/8 tsp KH2PO4, 3/4 KNO3

Daily: 8ml Metricide 14 solution

Lighting is 2x Tek 36" fistures. 4 Geissmann bulbs. 2 Midday. 2 Flora. 36" above the substate. 6 hour photo period.

this dosing has been modified to the above to attack the listed algae that i have.

I have tried the 1-2 Punch. I cleared up all but the BBA. BUT all the above algaes listed came back with vengence like they were pissed off at me.

EVERY day i spend AT LEAST an hour on this tank, manually removing BBA, BGA, and brown hair, i spot treat want i cant remove with H2O2. And yet i wake to the algae being back, glaring at me and mocking me.

Its like a booger on the end of my finger, no matter how hard i try to shake it, it never goes way:icon_cry:

I am at my wits end. I am on the verge of braking this tank down, scrapping it all and doing yet another low tech tank.

I am open to ALL suggestions and will try ANYTHING to right this ship, but i am losing hope.

Thx


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## [email protected] (Mar 4, 2012)

I too was at my wits end with algae, but it was only with bba. I finally licked it. I talked with Orlando from Greenleaf aquariums and he steered me in the right direction. The man really knows his stuff,I followed his advice and now the bba is a non issue.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

It will clarify more if you tell us what your lighting is exactly, positioning above the tank, and your daily lighting period.
Also the extent of your plantings through the tank doesn't seem descriptive enough- you mentioned 'low plant mass' - how much ? Any pics to show us ?
Have you done any spot dosing of either Excel, or H202 on any of the algae?
See you're dosing metricide daily - right into the water column ?
And what's your water change routine ?
This info might help.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi ChadRamsey,

Usually when I have algae outbreaks it is due to excessive light. I understand you have:


> LIGHTING: 2 36" Tek fixtures with 2x Giesemann Middays and 2x Flora bulbs


on your tank. What is your photoperiod?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

*Re: At my wits end...*

You should have told me ... I would have sent you a ton of water sprite.

I would start with BBA = high organics + high flow + low o2 (co2 aside). Cleaning substrate with a lot of ground cover is a pain, but you got to lower the organics. Adjust the spray bar more towards the surface to increase airation. Continue spot treatment and removal.

You should see BBA stop spreading and start to die off within a week. You should also start seeing green thread algae start to spread more and start to suffocate BBA even more. Within 2 weeks BBA should be 95% gone and dead. Then 3-day treatment with AlgaeFix will get the thread algae under control. If you start seeing green slime algae then your organics are still too high.

You can win.

via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

discuspaul said:


> It will clarify more if you tell us what your lighting is exactly, positioning above the tank, and your daily lighting period.
> Also the extent of your plantings through the tank doesn't seem descriptive enough- you mentioned 'low plant mass' - how much ? Any pics to show us ?
> Have you done any spot dosing of either Excel, or H202 on any of the algae?
> See you're dosing metricide daily - right into the water column ?
> ...


Sorry, i cant believe i left the lighting out. DUH!! i added to the OP.

You can see it on my 125g journal. the last page is a fairly resent pic to get a feel of the plants

I do not use excel. I use a metricide solution. I have only spot treated with H2O2

WC routine. Before lights on i remove 50% or more more of the water. I use a modified garden hose. I stir the up the mulm that collects in the substarte and vac out what i can see while doing the WC. After i clean the glass and then i use tap water to refill. I prime it and dose my daily ferts. 



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi ChadRamsey,
> 
> Usually when I have algae outbreaks it is due to excessive light. I understand you have:
> 
> on your tank. What is your photoperiod?


sorry i added it to the OP


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

I've been in PM contact with Chad in an attempt to resolve these issues since it came back so rapidly after the "One-Two Punch". Unfortunately, I haven't been much help, so asking for other opinions is definitely the right thing to do at this point.

Adding a few details I know. Lighting is 36" from substrate, photoperiod at 6 hours as of last notice.

An attempt to supplement the flow from the FX5's spray bar with a Koralia resulted in fish gasping. This might be a symptom of a CO2/O2 issue, but I'm not sure what, as increased agitation should not have this result.

Chad, I know it may be embarrassing, but I'd suggest posting some pictures of the full tank, as well as the problem areas. No shame in having algae. And if anyone laughs, that's their problem, not yours.

The fact that you've at least achieved a stalemate with most algae, may mean you're making some progress. The fastest growing are now BGA and brown hair. BGA can certainly be eliminated with erythromycin, and possibly the brown hair too - I'm aware of an iron eating bacteria that can take this appearance. And both can negatively impact tank parameters simply by their presence.

Don't give up. I hope others will be able to help you where I have failed.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

OVT said:


> You should have told me ... I would have sent you a ton of water sprite.
> 
> I would start with BBA = high organics + high flow + low o2 (co2 aside). Cleaning substrate with a lot of ground cover is a pain, but you got to lower the organics. Adjust the spray bar more towards the surface to increase airation. Continue spot treatment and removal.
> 
> ...


thx oleg,

But if i aim the spray bar toward the surface more then i will lose alot of co2. Wouldnt that be counterproductive?

I dont have green thread, but clumps of slimy brown hair popping up.

Ill try the algeFix. Hell, it cant hurt at this point


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

DarkCobra said:


> I've been in PM contact with Chad in an attempt to resolve these issues since it came back so rapidly after the "One-Two Punch". Unfortunately, I haven't been much help, so asking for other opinions is definitely the right thing to do at this point.
> 
> Adding a few details I know. Lighting is 36" from substrate, photoperiod at 6 hours as of last notice.
> 
> ...


thanks DC fo r all your help thus far. You have not failed at all. You have been extremely helpful, an i really appreciate it

:icon_redf

heres a few pics. i will take more tomorrow and post them

THANKS eveyone


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi ChadRamsey,

I see you have a cleaning crew; what is it comprised of? How many of what species?


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## nvladik (Jan 12, 2012)

ohh that brown slime... boy to I hate it!


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

At the moment it's pretty thin

2 Otos 
6 zebra nerites
6 amano shrimp. 

And I am not sure tha amanos are still around. Because of the high co2 I never see them anymore


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi ChadRamsey,

That is an understatement. Typically in my tanks I run a minimum of one Otocinclus per 10 gallons (great on diatoms and soft, flat, green algae), 1 Crossocheilus oblongus (SAE) per 40 gallons (more if small; excellent on green hair algae, thread algae, staghorn algae, and BBA - especially if weakened by dosing Excel at 2X daily dosage), and at least one Corydoras per 5 gallons (but most of my tanks have 2 or more Corys per 10 gallons). My Corys are always working, cleaning debris off of the leaves of my plants.

I think I would attribute the problem to the 300 watts of light you are running in conjunction with the light plant load, full fertilizer dosing, and the light cleaning crew 

If it were me, I would start by substantially increasing my cleaning crew. I would do two water changes per week (algae being a lesser evolved plant has trouble adapting to changing water conditions, cut my photoperiod back to 4 hours until the cleaning crew gets caught up, and monitor the nitrate levels to insure with the shorter photoperiod my nitrates didn't go through the roof.

I would also check my water for ammonia and nitrates or ask my friendly LFS to test my water for them. If present, determine the cause and correct.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi ChadRamsey,
> 
> That is an understatement. Typically in my tanks I run a minimum of one Otocinclus per 10 gallons (great on diatoms and soft, flat, green algae), 1 Crossocheilus oblongus (SAE) per 40 gallons (more if small; excellent on green hair algae, thread algae, staghorn algae, and BBA - especially if weakened by dosing Excel at 2X daily dosage), and at least one Corydoras per 5 gallons (but most of my tanks have 2 or more Corys per 10 gallons). My Corys are always working, cleaning debris off of the leaves of my plants.
> 
> ...


I will make the cleaning crew my top priority starting tomorrow. 

I'll double my water changes and reduce my photo period

What about removing one of the bulbs. Just running 3?

I can test my water for most things myself. All but phosphates. Mg. and the like. 

I will run the whole gamut of test tomorrow before and after my WC and post it.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

*Re: At my wits end...*

If you want to rely on the cleaning crew you have to starve the tank : no food for a week or so. All creatures mentioned will eat fish food first algae distant second.

With the exception of young starving SAE and black mollies, I know of no fish that will touch BBA. There are no known fish that will eat cyano.

via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


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## Zlookup (Mar 3, 2013)

Instead of decreasing my photo period, I noticed that the suggestions some have made in other threads to have a pause in lighting helped stabilize my conditions a bit before the 1-2 punch took care of the rest. Continuing to run 3 hrs with 2 hrs off followed by 3 hrs now and will hope it doesn't lead to algae outbreak again. Maybe some to consider. Good luck.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi ChadRamsey,

Let us know how it goes after a week or so. BTW, my SAE seem to enjoy eating BBA, especially after I have weakened it with spot treatments of H2O2 or Excel (glutaraldehyde).


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

chad i hope you did not give up, for right now lets raise the light little bit higher while using the regular lighting schedule.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

In no way I want to start a debate, but only to help.

The BBA in this thread survived in 2g of water in complete darkness for 2 weeks.

My 65g has at least x2 of Chad's PAR for 12 hours daily with no visible BBA.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

OVT said:


> In no way I want to start a debate, but only to help.
> 
> The BBA in this thread survived in 2g of water in complete darkness for 2 weeks.
> 
> My 65g has at least x2 of Chad's PAR for 12 hours daily with no visible BBA.


+1

it was growing perfectly fine when i was using low light


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I too was at my wits end with algae, but it was only with bba. I finally licked it. I talked with Orlando from Greenleaf aquariums and he steered me in the right direction. The man really knows his stuff,I followed his advice and now the bba is a non issue.


would please share the technique that you used? 



happi said:


> chad i hope you did not give up, for right now lets raise the light little bit higher while using the regular lighting schedule.


I dont want to give up. Its just that i am so frustrated, thats all.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

i did a massive trim and eliminated a bunch of algae that way. Then i did a 60% WC and vacced the substrate and in and around all the plants. I also spot treated exposed BBA with H2O2 and let it sit for 15 minutes or so. While i waited i removed 1 Geisemann Flora bulb from EACH fixture. 

So now i am running 2 mid day and 1 flora in each fixture.

I sure hope that my HC doesnt suffer. I scalped it big time as well.

I am picking up some erythromycin tomorrow for the BGA and to see if it has any effect on the brown fuzzy crap. 

I guess the dosing is staying the same as listed in the OP. Any more opinions on that?

Picking up more cleaning crew critters tomorrow, Maybe ill contact Msjinkzd as well.


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## jhays79 (Mar 28, 2012)

In my experience bba resulted from high organics, low flow, and poor 02. I had to tear my tank down, bleach the plants, and start over. I was over feeding my fish, had too much old food rotting away, and my filter couldn't keep up biologically. After setting up the tank again, I added an airstone, fed very very lightly, and added a powerhead to increase flow. Haven't had algae since.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

jhays79 said:


> In my experience bba resulted from high organics, low flow, and poor 02. I had to tear my tank down, bleach the plants, and start over. I was over feeding my fish, had too much old food rotting away, and my filter couldn't keep up biologically. After setting up the tank again, I added an airstone, fed very very lightly, and added a powerhead to increase flow. Haven't had algae since.


Hey jhays, 

its funny that you should post that really, i was just loggin in to throw that same observation.

After talking with OVT, she suggested, and i concur, that my organics are out of control and quite possibly the reason i am currently struggling with Algae.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

ChadRamsey said:


> After talking with OVT, *she* suggested...


I just did a quick test and, based on my limited experience, I am still a "he".
I currently have no plans to fix that deficiency.


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## STS_1OO (Nov 28, 2012)

That's assuming your test is accurate.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

OVT said:


> I just did a quick test and, based on my limited experience, I am still a "he".
> I currently have no plans to fix that deficiency.


 
hahaha, i am so sorry, i have not a clue! I have no clue what i was thinking! I wasnt thinking!

how embaressing!

i am so sorry!:icon_redf


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

*Re: At my wits end...*



STS_1OO said:


> That's assuming your test is accurate.


Recently calibrated.

via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


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## jhays79 (Mar 28, 2012)

Yeah, when I tore the tank down I couldn't believe how much rotting food and old plant leaves was on the bottom of the tank hidden in nooks and crannies. That and my filter media was all plugged up with it. My own fault for sure, but I just didn't realize it was there. I had tried limiting the photo period before this, nd over dosing excel, but it didn't help. Tearing the tank down, bleach dipping the plants and driftwood, along with the tank itself was the option that worked best for me. A lot of work doing that, but like I said before, the addition of the powerhead and air stone, alon with very light feeding a, and the BBA hasn't returned (knock on wood!)


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

OVT said:


> I just did a quick test and, based on my limited experience, I am still a "he".
> I currently have no plans to fix that deficiency.





STS_1OO said:


> That's assuming your test is accurate.





OVT said:


> Recently calibrated.
> 
> via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


Thanks for making my day. I needed the laugh. :red_mouth


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

if organic buildup was the reason for algae, then i guess we should see it in those tanks who use aqua soil or organic potting soil, right?


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## n00dl3 (Jan 26, 2008)

Where are your algae growing/building up? I think the root causes of your problems are co2 and light. You’re putting out a ton of lights. Have you taken any PAR reading? You’ll need to have a very good co2 distribution throughout the tank with that kind of light level. 
IME, I don't think you have good co2 distribution at the bottom. If you're getting algae at the crevices, then the flow is blocked from your rocks. You’ll need to move around the powerhead to get a good distribution.
You have a spray bar spanning the length of your tank. I'm finding out myself that a spray bar in a big tank doesn't work that well. I can’t get a good co2 distribution at the bottom of the tank. I’m really thinking it is because of the depth and width of the tank. I was lovin it for awhile but I keep getting algae to come back after clean up after clean up. 
Not until I added additional flow to my tank that the algae have backed off. I will be looking to change out the spray bar to nozzle soon. I know I have good co/o2 exchange because I have sump and how much co2 I'm dumping into the tank. 
Or if you don’t want to add additional flow to your tank, I would cut back your lights like other has recommended.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

happi said:


> if organic buildup was the reason for algae, then i guess we should see it in those tanks who use aqua soil or organic potting soil, right?


i vacced a ton of mulm from behind the rocks and pulled the blyxa out on the far left and you would NOT believe the amount that was under all them. :icon_eek: its hard to believe that 50 cardinal tetras could produce that much crap. And i have been down to 25 or so for months at that.

I am not saying that its the soul cause of the algae, but a sure that it doesnt help matters.




n00dl3 said:


> Where are your algae growing/building up? I think the root causes of your problems are co2 and light. You’re putting out a ton of lights. Have you taken any PAR reading? You’ll need to have a very good co2 distribution throughout the tank with that kind of light level.
> IME, I don't think you have good co2 distribution at the bottom. If you're getting algae at the crevices, then the flow is blocked from your rocks. You’ll need to move around the powerhead to get a good distribution.
> You have a spray bar spanning the length of your tank. I'm finding out myself that a spray bar in a big tank doesn't work that well. I can’t get a good co2 distribution at the bottom of the tank. I’m really thinking it is because of the depth and width of the tank. I was lovin it for awhile but I keep getting algae to come back after clean up after clean up.
> Not until I added additional flow to my tank that the algae have backed off. I will be looking to change out the spray bar to nozzle soon. I know I have good co/o2 exchange because I have sump and how much co2 I'm dumping into the tank.
> Or if you don’t want to add additional flow to your tank, I would cut back your lights like other has recommended.


the algae is settling on the rocks mostly. BGA on the front glass along the AS line and in some HC and fiss carpets, just a little.

As far as co2 distribution goes, i have moved my drop checker all over the tank and am getting the same readings along the same time frame. Ive moved it high, low, on all four sides.

I did add a powerhead a few weeks ago. And from the get go i noticed a HUGE difference. My fish reacted by acting o2 deprived almost form the introduction of the powerhead. And it appears that the BBA has stopped spreading for the most part. SO.. i am positive that flow WAS an issue.

At happi's suggetion, i removed a couple bulbs from the light fixtures. So now i am only running 3 bulbs in each of them. 2 middays and 1 flora.

All in all, i am thinking that such a big tank is a royal pain in the rear to get good even co2 distribution. Myabe i should brake it down. Sell it and get a pair if smaller ones:icon_roll

I want to say thanks to all of you for your input and time.

Especially happi, Dark, and OVT for all the pms.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

*Re: At my wits end...*



happi said:


> if organic buildup was the reason for algae, then i guess we should see it in those tanks who use aqua soil or organic potting soil, right?


With AS organics are in PS with 90% WC daily for 2 weeks

Why do we cap potting soil?

Just some thoughts.

via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


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## jhays79 (Mar 28, 2012)

happi said:


> if organic buildup was the reason for algae, then i guess we should see it in those tanks who use aqua soil or organic potting soil, right?


Say what you want, it worked for me, and I've read of others having the same experiences. Then again, yours is the only opinion that matters in this thread, right?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Let's keep it civil.

Both happi and ChadRamsey are friends and we are all trying to help each other, learn from each other, and laugh at each other. Different opinions are not suppressed, they are welcomed. Every opinion that differs from mine makes me think. Thinking is the only difference between me and a cucumber.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

A soil substrate is not quite the same as a mulm substrate either.

Makes me think of the time my grandma put rabbit hutches in the backyard, and killed the grass, the mint, and the nearby grapevines with droppings. Or when all my glosso suddenly died without warning, and I found it had been straining out and accumulating an incredible quantity of mulm.

Most of the people in this thread are on my friends list, or I've at least exchanged many PMs with. Including Happi, and we've have some fun disagreements.


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## ETK (Jan 25, 2013)

Sorry if this has been discussed (I scanned the thread but I don't think it was mentioned):

Have you checked your filter recently? You may have some pretty clogged filter pads (especially if you run any kind of fine filter pad in the FX5). Algae and mulm can really slow down a filter, and it is easy to miss since it can creep up on you. This is especially likely if you are working on the tank a lot and stirring up a lot of gunk and algae bits. The decrease in flow -- not to mention filtration -- can really exacerbate the algae problems . . . leading to even more of a clogged filter . . . and repeat.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

remind me of the people who thought Ammonium causing algae and having a 0KH would kill their fishes. regarding buildup of organic, i agree with it causing issue, but i don't think it was the main reason for algae issue here. i do agree with the other stuff which can cause algae CO2/circulation/ flow etc.

if i remember correctly fish waste act as plant food, plant decaying is a different thing.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

jhays79 said:


> Say what you want, it worked for me, and I've read of others having the same experiences. Then again, yours is the only opinion that matters in this thread, right?


i had the similar algae issue and tank, filter, substrate was kept clean, so i don't know how i ended up with the same algae. 

i want you to try one thing and see the results for yourself, add 100ppm of K2SO4 in 5 gallon tank and watch the brown algae within 2-3 days.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

OVT said:


> With AS organics are in PS with 90% WC daily for 2 weeks
> 
> Why do we cap potting soil?
> 
> ...


i have seen a hair algae when soil got out of top layer, but never seen any other algae in this tank. when i added aqua soil i did not change the water for 1 month and i was running low light and wasn't dosing any fert and there was no sign of any algae, until i started adding fertilizers, first i started with the GDA on substrate and it went all over the glass and other equipments, even with extremely low light this algae was present.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

OVT said:


> Let's keep it civil.
> 
> Both happi and ChadRamsey are friends and we are all trying to help each other, learn from each other, and laugh at each other. Different opinions are not suppressed, they are welcomed. Every opinion that differs from mine makes me think. Thinking is the only difference between me and a cucumber.


:thumbsup: that should take care of it


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## jhays79 (Mar 28, 2012)

Fish waste and decaying food won't be utilized if the plant load is too light though, and sooner of later something is going to take advantage of all the excess, that being BBA. I have three tanks setup, two dirted, one non dirted. I've never had any BBA problems in any of my other dirted tanks, which were heavily planted from their initial setup. Chad's situation sounds very similar to what I had going on, almost identical situations. The only real difference being is that I was doing massive water changes to clear the tannins in my tank after I set it up, which I think added a third variable, fluctuating Co2 levels. I stopped doing them and tried to dose Excel to "right" the tank, but by then I think it was too late. In my experience BBA was caused by 3 things: Too much decaying waste and food, low flow, and fluctuating Co2 levels.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

ETK said:


> Sorry if this has been discussed (I scanned the thread but I don't think it was mentioned):
> 
> Have you checked your filter recently? You may have some pretty clogged filter pads (especially if you run any kind of fine filter pad in the FX5). Algae and mulm can really slow down a filter, and it is easy to miss since it can creep up on you. This is especially likely if you are working on the tank a lot and stirring up a lot of gunk and algae bits. The decrease in flow -- not to mention filtration -- can really exacerbate the algae problems . . . leading to even more of a clogged filter . . . and repeat.


Actually i clean my filter pretty regularly. Maybe a little too often. (its the OCD i think). 

I also have a sponge prefilter on the intake that collects almost all of the solid material. *Could this be some of my organic accumilations issues?*

Yesterday i replaced all the hoses and cleaned the filter AGAIN. The hoses were pretty bad. And the filter was unbelievably clean really. I do have foam blocks on the side cradles, and when i rinsed them , NOTHING came out of them. So the filter is good and clean.

I will say this though, my flow was ALOT better after i replaced the hoses. So hope that helps. 





jhays79 said:


> Fish waste and decaying food won't be utilized if the plant load is too light though, and sooner of later something is going to take advantage of all the excess, that being BBA. I have three tanks setup, two dirted, one non dirted. I've never had any BBA problems in any of my other dirted tanks, which were heavily planted from their initial setup. Chad's situation sounds very similar to what I had going on, almost identical situations. The only real difference being is that I was doing massive water changes to clear the tannins in my tank after I set it up, which I think added a third variable, fluctuating Co2 levels. I stopped doing them and tried to dose Excel to "right" the tank, but by then I think it was too late. In my experience BBA was caused by 3 things: Too much decaying waste and food, low flow, and fluctuating Co2 levels.


I have hopefully aquared away the flow and co2 issues. 

I am working in the waste issue as we speak. 

Thanks for the input.


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## VAtanks (Feb 1, 2013)

I had the same problem in my 100g. I am running CO2 Reactor high light timer the works. EI nutrients, and a giant bowl of algea soup. What fixed the whole problem for me is changing my flow around. Basically my flow creats a spiral inside the tank top to bottom moving right to left back to the intake of the filter. My original direction of flow was causing lots of waste either plant or other to be stuffed into areas that my vac couldnt quite get and no matter what I did..i.e changing photo period upping CO2, dosing H2O2 nothing worked and it seemed the more effort I put into the removal the worse it got. Then I changed the flow to my curent spiral set up and run a giant air stone 12 hours opposite of the CO2. With in literally 24 hours all but a litte BBA was left on one Anubis. I leave it there reminds me every day of how much I have learned ...


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Chad if you are seeing a mulm in your tank then this sure is a flow issue, keep in mind you are dealing with multiple algae and removing the mulm isn't the only cure for algae. i suggest fixing the flow issue.

how far is the inlet from the substrate? you might be seeing mulm buildup if inlet is too far from the substrate, IME it should be 0.5"-1" (inch) away from the substrate, it seems to suck up lot of debris this way.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

i would also like to know, why do we get algae inside the filter hoses? i have always seen it looks dirty and looks like black or brown stuff/algae stuck to it, is this normal? how can algae be stuck to it because these hoses are under the tank in complete darkness and this area gets the most flow.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

happi said:


> Chad if you are seeing a mulm in your tank then this sure is a flow issue, keep in mind you are dealing with multiple algae and removing the mulm isn't the only cure for algae. i suggest fixing the flow issue.
> 
> how far is the inlet from the substrate? you might be seeing mulm buildup if inlet is too far from the substrate, IME it should be 0.5"-1" (inch) away from the substrate, it seems to suck up lot of debris this way.


i am playing around with the powerhead placement and its point of direction. 

I have a large sponge prefilter on the intake(see the pic below). the bottom of the sponge is about 3 inches off the substrate. I will lower it a bit. Also do you think that that sponge has anything to do with the accumulation of crap?




happi said:


> i would also like to know, why do we get algae inside the filter hoses? i have always seen it looks dirty and looks like black or brown stuff/algae stuck to it, is this normal? how can algae be stuck to it because these hoses are under the tank in complete darkness and this area gets the most flow.


that a great question. I mean i know that the inside is not perfectly smooth, but with high the flow is in there, you would think that it would not be able to collect in there that easy.

Here is a diagram of the location of the algae accumulation

White = brown hair
green = BGA


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

happi said:


> i would also like to know, why do we get algae inside the filter hoses?


That's an easy one. It's not algae, it's bacteria. Exactly what you'd expect in a biofilter, just not in a particularly desirable place.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

DarkCobra said:


> That's an easy one. It's not algae, it's bacteria. Exactly what you'd expect in a biofilter, just not in a particularly desirable place.



i have a hose from my filter that has been siting outside for couple of months and it still have the same brown stuff attach to it, i don't think bacteria could survive that long.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

i MAY have found the source of all my frustration.....

The sponge prefilter in the FX5 intake!

Today when i came home from work, the organic build up had clearly gotten worse. SO i started a WC and a good vac job. It wasnt even time to do a filter cleaning, but i happen to get a good look at the sponge prefilter and there was so much organic material attached to it that i actually could not see much of the sponge surface

**as a side note...i put the prefilter on there beacuse i had purchased 50 cardinal tetras and 20 amano shrimp and the tetras were getting sucked into the FX5 because they were so small at the time.

I removed the sponge. Did my WC and vacced real well and put the original filter grate that came with the FX5 back on. 

When i started up my filter, the flow had probably close to doubled. And there was so much organic material that was settled in hidden places that it was stirred up and you could barely see the fish in the tank. It was repulsive.

I added a powerhead because of the reduced flow not long after the sponge went on.

I am to assume that the reduction in flow also hindered the co2 distribution most likely. It was the sole cause of all the organic build up issue. And all this is MOST likely the cause of the continued fight with algae.

I hope...


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Yea i think organic buildup is a common trend in algae problems. I would argue that in healthy tanks, organic buildup is less since plants are growing and not dying.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

There we go

via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


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## zzrguy (Jul 11, 2012)

Do you run a air stone at all and cycle on and off your CO2.
My fish where much happier when I run the air pump at night for around 6hours I'm running a DIY CO2 add more Otto's and Amano's you could probably add 12 or so.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

zzrguy said:


> Do you run a air stone at all and cycle on and off your CO2.
> My fish where much happier when I run the air pump at night for around 6hours I'm running a DIY CO2 add more Otto's and Amano's you could probably add 12 or so.


 
no i dont run an airstone at all..maybe ill add it.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

update

MUCH better now that i removed the prefilter on the fx5 intake and my flow is back to what it should be. 


I am making big changes too. I removed all the HC and the fiss carpets. You wouldnt believe the organic build up under both of those.:icon_eek: Its was insane.


So i am basically concentrating on the cleaning at this point. I raised the lights about 8 inches, so that they are about 36" from the substarte. 


The BGA is completely gone. I am willing to bet its beacuse of the HUGE reduction in organics


The GSA is all but gone too. I have one little corner and one side that still gets a bit here and there. No biggie.


The BBA is on its way out. It has ceased spreading. Now i am just manually removing it here and there.


Same goes with the brown hair. They only thing left of it is what i have missed while manually removing it. 


So all in all, the tanks appears healthier and more algae free. I know that it will never be completely algae free, but its looking alot better.


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## h4n (Jan 4, 2006)

Good to hear Chad! 
Sad to see all the HC and fissidne carpet gone... but Hey it better then hearing you break down the tank!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

!

via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

Great thread ! I'm glad you are winning the battle Chad.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

i know this is a old thread, but i would like to thank OVT and other members, i know i was confuse and came up with conclusion without testing their theory. after doing my own experiments, i have noticed the increase in BBA when substrate was dirty, too much mulm/debris from dead plants and fish waste. there are so many threads on BBA lately, if anyone is struggling with BBA, i think they should look at this thread, we got some good info here.

i apologize, sometime i am hard to convince, now days i test the theory before coming up with any conclusions, this thread on BBA is very well done, thanks. i will report back after the BBA is completely gone.


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

No doubt, OVTs "Theory Of as Dirty Tank" = BBA is valid. 

In my current set up, i vac the substrate and hardscape weekly with my water changes, AS WELL AS clean my canister filter bi-weekly and i have the BBA under control. ALL algae under control for that matter.


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## Water7 (May 19, 2013)

I too found this thread very informative! I had never understood the connection between the tank being too dirty and algae. Although I think I keep my tanks quite clean, I have to work on my filters more, I think. Thank you to all who helped out with this thread, and I think it would be great if this could be a sticky.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ChadRamsey said:


> i MAY have found the source of all my frustration.....
> 
> The sponge prefilter in the FX5 intake!
> 
> ...



So if plants stop growing as well(for whatever reason), lose some leaves etc, this will rapidly clog the filters.Which leads to lower water quality and you still have suboptimal plant growth etc. This leads to the old healthy plant growth= best defense against algae hypothesis.

"puopg" mentioned this back a few post. 

I've never done this, but adding a lot of semi rotting plant cuttings into a tank should lead to algae. But an otherwise healthy tank, not one that has internal losses of plant leaves etc? Maybe not so much. Taken together, those both could be part of the issue with various algae. But just adding rotting plants alone might not be enough.

Dirty tanks= not well cared for, over loaded, not trimmed enough, too much moving plants around, not cleaning things enough in a timely manner. Water changes can siphon off a lot of junk. Then come back the next day and hit with Excel peroxide, take out anything you can and scrub, or do while doing a large water change if you cannot remove some non live algae covered item.

If the balance is kicked out of whack, you have to do a lot more work to get it back, but afterwards, things are much much easier. I try to nip it in the butt quick. Algae eaters will help a lot to buffer this also.

Still, a bunch of dirt + so so plant growth will be harder to get the tank back to good condition vs just so so plant growth alone. Do not let things get that bad, otherwise the cure is even more work. I've long held water changes are good idea for many reasons. Here's a good reason as well.


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