# Need advice on low tech planted tank



## Wantsome99 (Nov 27, 2016)

RO water seems like a bit overkill. Wouldn't it probably be best just to work with what you have coming out of the tap? From what I see of your tank is you need more plant mass. I have the same size tank with eco complete. I dose 1/8 teaspoon KNO3 and 1/32 tsp KH2PO4 once a week after a water change and Seachem Flourish for traces the day after. My plants are growing well. I'm on Detroit city tap water. PH is 7.8 and high phosphates. Stuff the tank with as many plants as you can. Add some floaters like duckweed or frogbit. Lightly dose some dry ferts once a week and you should be good to go.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I think you have answered your own question: you are switching your RO percentages around too ofthen, imho

kH of 10 is not that horrible: plenty of plants and fish will do just fine. Chose RO or no RO, fix the percentage, and stick with it. Just let the whole tank get adjusted to some *consistent* environment.

Same goes for fertilizers: whatever you dose, shoot for N 10-20 ppm, P around 1 ppm. Test N, P, and kH and keep them consistently in the range.

Once the environment is not jumping around, once you have a starting point, you can start making small adjustments to improve whatever you think is not optimal for you / plants / fish.

Some insight on your Valisneria and crypts not doing that well: they are plants that take a lot of their nutrients from the substrate (aka heavy root feeders). If you ever pulled a healthy one out, you would see how extensive their root system is. They also reproduce via (root) runners.

Looking at your picture, I see two things. 1. The substrate is innert (i.e. does not inherently contain any nutrients). 2. The substrate appears to be shalow. If that indeed is the case, I would shoot for around 2" of substrate depth, at least around your "root feeder" plants. You want the top of the roots / base of the leaves to be about even with the top of the substrate.

Another note on these plants is that they do better when planted closer together. I have no sientific evidence, but they remind me of Redwoods that use their roots as a "communal support" system.

On a totally separate note: I respect and admire parents that share a hobby with their kids. In that spirit, shoot me a PM if you want some free Java Fern that has been sitting in our laundry sink for months now, annoying my wife.


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## SeerKing (Jan 19, 2018)

Ok- so after reading everything you posted I think in my opinion your problem may lie in the lighting department. A lot of people go with the finnex lights because there the new Walmart of the planted lights department! Even I considered getting that light for my planted tanks. However I didn’t go that route because the other light I really wanted was just far superior in every way and for $50-70 bucks more depending on the model I would choose I could get the light I wanted so I waited and bought the fluval fresh and plant 2.0! It’s water proof and has a far superior quality full spectrum light and way brighter and more powerful than the finnex. The par rating on the finnex is (about) 60ish where as the par rating on the fluval fresh and plant 2.0 is 130-150ish! That’s a huge difference! And the way the lights are built they cover the whole entire surface area evenly and with the same potency of light va lights like finnex are a very narrow beam and the plants don’t get even direct good quality light! On my 40g breeder I got some plants from my local fish store and those plants are never established because there always being sold. So I get some plants that aren’t looking so well. But when I put them in my tank they always recover! 
I’m not telling you to fork over $150 for the fluval brand I’m just saying think about it. Finnex is inexpensive because there cheap! For everyday ppl there perfect! But if your running a planted show tank and your struggling I’d get waaaay better lighting for starters! You can buy a $2 cheap timer at your hardware store and out the fluval light on it and call it a day. Planted tanks need good quality light. If you have plant substrate and decent nutrients in the water the light it must! Here’s another thing to think about. Let’s even say the finnex light had the same exact quality full spectrum light as the fluval with the same calibration but the finnex had a par reading of 60 and ts fluval of 150 and you put it on a somewhat heavily planted tank let’s say on a 40g breeder. Your plants will respond way better to the fluval. It’s not always about it being (full spectrum light) that’s not hard to do. It’s about the par reading as well. Whether or not the full spectrum hits the ground at the same intensity it’s emitting. If the full spectrum can’t reach the plants and shine through the leaves or green it can photosynthesis well or properly! Light super charges plants. By piercing the leaves and stems! That why you can see the veins in leaves if you look under neathe it when the sun shines down on it. The sun is a prime example of proper lighting! It’s full spectrum light is so powerful it reached the bottom of the earth with the same intensity! So our imitation of the sun lights need to reach the bottom of the tank with the right intensity too! If that makes sense. 

In my opinion if you had the money to fork over I’d get a better light and more specifically the fluval fresh and plant 2.0, which is the best plant light on the market in my opinion. And the last thing I personally would do is dose the tank with co2 to help them out a little and jump start them. I don’t use co2 regularly myself because plants produce it naturally. I just dose the water with ice mountain carbonated water and my plants will begin to pearl instantly and the fish are fine too. What I noticed is after a couple weeks of dosing like that after my water changes they would pearl by themselves. Where as before the co2 dosing they wouldn’t ever pearl after a water change. I just helped my plants out a little and have them a little extra co2 and I feel like it gave them a better ability to grow and produce it on there own. Just my little green thumb intuition trick. I think if you got better lighting and added some co2 your plants will not die or wither away. I think they will flourish. 
I also think from the picture your substrate looks a little shallow too.


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

Your substrate does look a little shallow - hard to tell from a picture. Even if it doesn't contain ferts plenty of room for roots is good. I'd also be tempted to stick some root tabs under there (you'll need a minimum of about 2" of substrate for tabs).

Are you doing weekly 50% water changes?


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## CapnBBA (Mar 7, 2018)

First, I would like to say a big thank you to everyone who took the time to read my fairly long post. The community on this forum seems to really know their stuff (been lurking and reading for a few months now). The fact that all of you took the time to respond is greatly appreciated. Because I was not able to get back to the forum the last couple days I will respond to each of you in order.

*Wantsome99* - My original goal was to stick with plants and fish that would be fine with my tap water but I ended up trying out the RO in January 2018 due to a lack of other ideas. I used only tap water from April 2017 -January 2018 under a variety of settings and the plants always slowly decayed over the course of a few months. The LFS is <10 minutes from my job so filing up 5-10 gallons of RO once a week is not a huge inconvenience but yes, being able to run on just tap would be preferred. I was nervous to purchase a bunch of plants as I could not get growth or even sustainability in the plants I owned. It was mentioned in another reply that putting htem closer together seemed to help. I may move my plants into a more tightly packed area and I am not opposed to adding a couple more but I do not really want to fill my tank with purchased plants as much as I would like to grow them.

*OVT* - Thank you for the insights. I agree that as of late I have been bouncing around too much. I kept things relatively stable from June 2017 - early December 2017 when I moved everything from 20G long to the 40G breeder I have now. I think watching a series of plants slowly die has worn me down. I am still committed to seeing the planted tank to success but frustration mounts. 
In regards to the substrate the black area is Eco-Complete which I believe does contain nutrients? Please correct me if I am wrong about that. The white area is aquarium sand. My daughter is 5 and she named the tank "Sunnyside Beach" so the white sand is the beach. You, as well as others noticed the substrate is definitely too shallow. It is maybe 1" deep, less than that in a some areas. I have had a second bag of Eco-Complete for sometime but I was not 100% on the best way to add and I was holding off for a reason I do not fully understand. I have root tabs but I feel that with the Eco-Complete and Thrive dosing these plants should not really need more than that based on what I have read. 
My daughter is 5 and the whole reason we got an aquarium is that we asked if she wanted a pet to take care of. Given the choice between a rodent and fish she chose fish. I too have always admired parents who make their children's interests their own and it has been an awesome hobby. She could care less about the plants, so I that is my personal end of the tank but she loves the fish, the unicorn statues, 'sunnyside beach' etc... She feeds the fish each morning, knows we have to watch the temperature, clean the tank, etc. She knows a lot more about proper aquarium care than many adults with tanks! 

*Seerking* I have been eyeing the fluval's every time I go to my LFS from the day I started the aquarium. The price caused me to hold off and I used a stingray on my 20 gal long and then I bought the current Fugeray Planted + for $25 for when I moved to the 40gal. My PAR research online indicated that at 24" I would get PAR around 50, which I believed was sufficient for the basic plants I am trying to grow. I do have my current light on a timer which has been helpful for regularity. The light is on from 8am -12 pm, then off for a 'nap' from 12-2 and back on again from 2-6. 
The price of the Fluval is within my budget, much more so than last year. I believe I will end up purchasing a Fluval sooner than later. I was looking online at the Fluval Fresh and Plant 2.0 and the Fluval Plant Spectrum Bluetooth that just recently came out. The price difference seems negligible. For my 40gal breeder would you recommend the 36-46" 2.0 or Bluetooth model? If light extraction is the same than I'll just go with the newer model with more gimmicks. 
Yes, substrate is too shallow. That is priority #1. SA far as co2 dosing, I am not set up for a tank. Would you recommend something like Excel or is there a small system I can use with the little disposable co2 canisters for a brief dosing period? I actually have a nice regulator I came in to but none of the other equipment I would need to use it with my tank. 

*tamsin* Substrate going to be increased this week. Have the bag Eco-Complete on hand, time is harder to find but I will make it happen this week. I have some root tabs left from when I was using an inert gravel but now that I am using Eco-Complete and dosing Thrive I feel I should not need the tabs. As far as water changes I do weekly water changes but not 50%. I have generally done 25-35% most of the time. My fish bio load is not high and the weekly changes so far have maintained Nitrates in the 10-20ppm range consistently. Would there be a benefit to changing out 50% weekly? K thought that much would be for a more advanced approach, like an Estimative Index. 

Again, thank you all for taking the time to share your knowledge. It is greatly appreciated and I feel that I can make this thing work, with your help. My plan for the upcoming week(s) is as follows :

1. Increase substrate depth. I already have a bag of Eco-Complete, it should get me to about 2" everywhere. Plan is to slowly add with a submersed cup/bowl at the bottom of the tank. Any tips on how to do this effectively? Should I pull up the plants first and replant after?

2. Continue to do weekly water changes as I have been. 50% RO, 50% tap and bout 30% change each week.

3. After increasing substrate depth to 2" move the plants in to tighter groups. Add a few more plants to the tank, keeping closer together.

4. Look in to Fluval Fresh and Plant. May not purchase immediately but in the near future.

Any other feed back or tips are most welcome!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Eco-Complete is indeed innert.

I would not agonize over how to add it. The cup will work. Personally, I would drop the water level a bit and dump the stuff right from the bag. In the world of substrares, it is one of the cleanest. The water will clear overnight. I belive there is a plastic packet of water clarifier in the bag, it will help a bit.

I would start from the right back corner, go around the back and end at around the driftwood area, leaving the beach alone. That will give you a gentle slope towards the glass. Then lift driftwood/decorations, and gently pull crypts up by the stems until the bottom of the stems are roughly level with the substrate. The rest of the plast I see will be fine, or pull them up a bit, as needed. 

IMHO, your current Finnex light is just fine for the plants and the tank you have. I am amongst many who blame equipment on our own shortcommings. You can dump $600+ on lights, another $500+ on co2, get 2 $300 filters, $2K on a tank, etc etc and still end up with crap and depper in the hole. This is education + thinking + patience game, not an arms race. My $0.02.


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## SeerKing (Jan 19, 2018)

Ok so on the plant light if your going to buy the fluval lights I’d personally go with the fluval fresh and plant 2.0 vs the new one Fluval plant spectrum 3.0, and that is because (a). The 2.0 has a high kelvin color temperature than the 3.0. The 2.0 is 7500k and the 3.0 is 6500k in my opinion that’s a big difference ans best for plants. Also I have the 2.0 and I know it works and is super strong and heavy duty and the led colors are high quality. The 2.0 van do WiFi with the $70 added adapter but it’s garbage is what ppl say. I can’t speak on the 3.0 but my honest opinion..... I’m NOT sold! It feels like a marketing sham/ just a lot of hype for dummies who want to feel like they have a lot. The 24/7 customization is a cool feature which should be on the 2.0. Instead of making the 3.0 stronger light they made it weaker and added in the ability to play with colors and have custom time settings. My $1-2 dollar timers work just fine and I get the 7500k full spectrum light. Good quality full spectrum! I’ve tried lots of full spectrum lights and some can be quite garbage. Lighting in my opinion regardless of what others say is one of the most important parts that is a must to get. And I’d spend some money to get proper lighting. Plants can’t photosynthesize without it! But if you want to get the latest hype 3.0 go for it. I might get it someday just to test it out to see if it’s really worth anything. But I’m so happy with my 2.0 and honestly won’t go with any other light ever again if I can help it. I have the 36-48inch 2.0 on my 40g breeder I’ll show you how it fits. Make sure to get the right size if you get the 3.0. The lumens are lower on the smaller models the lumens are the same as the 2.0 on the 36-48incher one. 

As for co2 that’s one thing I would (Not) spend a fortune on. Because there’s cheaper methods and plants naturally make co2. You just need to give ur plants a little boost sometimes when there struggling in my opinion. You can get a cheap paint ball co2 adapter from amazon and then buy any regular paintball co2 canister for $20 give or take. And if you already have a regulator then ur golden! I’d go that route. It’s the cheapest and most affective. Otherwise if you want to go super cheap you can do what I did and that’s buy some ice mountain carbonated water. On the ingredients it will say co2 and it will say on the label no colors sweeteners or any other garbage it’s just co2 infused water which is water real carbonated water is. I take one of those bottles and dump half of it one day half the next day and did that for 2 weeks. I personally saw improvements but results may vary because everyone’s tank and parameters are different. My water has ferry dust in it so that makes it better. You make a diy co2 system with a spare glass put a check valve on and co2 water or yeast and sugar and baking soda or powder mix and put it in the bottle and then use a cheap diffuser or a fine bubble diffuser designed for co2 dosing. I’ve tried all of those methods btw. Dumping the carbonated water in is my personal favorite because it’s easy simple fast and every time I put it in it makes my plants pearl instantly so it’s something to watch too and u know there’s a gas exchange comeing from your plants. It’s really just for your minds sake. But it’s cool and it works. I will warn you there’s a possibility of getting some fluctuations in your water parameters that might affect and promote algae. You might have a sudden algae outbreak but nothing too crazy! Algae is never a bad thing anyway. I never get rid of mine because it’s a primary food source in the wild and helps keep the water stable! It’s in every wild body of ware and is a must for proper and healthy water for fish and all other organisms. Idk why ppl are obsessed with killing algae. Every time I hear another person talk about getting rid of it I’m like Nooooooooooooooo. It’s another one of those noob myths that even some so called pros don’t understand. But that’s another topic! But ya hope that helps.

Man I love this light
I have a 75g currently being cycle for my goldfish but eventually am going to make it a big beautiful aquascape and goldfish will go in a baby pool. I have 30g tall and a ten gallon. In the 40g breeder I have 2 inch sand half of the tank and 2 inch plant substrate I forget which kind but I think it was eco complete I topped it off with small natural rock gravel which makes it about 3-4 inches in certain places. Sand is one of the best substrates for growing benificial bacteria. But can be an eye sore if you have other substrate in there too. Other substrate gets on the beautiful sand. Anyway hope this gives you a good a idea. The fluval has On/Blue/and off mode and then you can dim the daylight and dim the blue light too. The blue light option is suppose to mimick the moon light but doesn’t actually do anything for the plants alone. But if you ever wanted glo fish the blue light would be perfect for them! It’s a saturated deep high quality blue. The 2.0 is brighter than the 3.0 in video reviews I saw. 3 main lights you need blue red and white. Blue and red make a purple and pink and white gives the day light. On the fluval there is gold lights that are included that give a warmer and life like sun color too it too and there all rated at 7500kelvin color temp. If you turn on the light on max and pick it up and shine it in your eyes you can get eye damage! The light is freaking bright! I was seeing red blue and white leds in my eyes for a good 20 seconds after I looked at the light. Alright I’ll shut up now. Hope you enjoy!


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