# Pygmy Sunfish Won't Eat!



## LB79 (Nov 18, 2011)

Try live mosquito larvae or baby brine. There's actually a good chance that they're still acclimating and aren't interested yet.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

LB79 said:


> Try live mosquito larvae or baby brine. There's actually a good chance that they're still acclimating and aren't interested yet.


When do you think I should try again? And I don't know where to get mosquito larvae this time of year. 

So I guess as long as they are swimming around they are fine?


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

Try and find a lfs or bait shop that sells live blackworms just in case.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

amcoffeegirl said:


> Try and find a lfs or bait shop that sells live blackworms just in case.


Don't know of any around here that do, and the one that may have them is a two hour drive away.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Did they go in the same uncycled tanks that just killed all the guppies?

If so- they're probably being ammonia and nitrite poisoned, and fish generally don't eat when their gills are being burnt.


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## klaus07 (Nov 23, 2011)

You can try daphnia, cyclops, Moina, glassworms, microworms, vinegar eels, blackworms, white worms, grindal worms. They can be finacky eaters at first. But once they settle down into a tank, and get really hungry, they should start eating. Be careful not to overfeed them until you verify they are eating.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

lauraleellbp said:


> Did they go in the same uncycled tanks that just killed all the guppies?
> 
> If so- they're probably being ammonia and nitrite poisoned, and fish generally don't eat when their gills are being burnt.


Nope, they went into a cycled tank with a 1" deep sandbed and quite a few relatively large floating pond plants. I buried the roots of the plants into the soil.

Yesterday while acclimating...









Female (left); Male (right)









These guys are omnivores, right? So does that mean they'll munch on the plants when hungry? There's also some fairy moss and duck weed (fairy moss is basically duckweed) floating on top in case they want to eat some softer stuff.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

klaus07 said:


> You can try daphnia, cyclops, Moina, glassworms, microworms, vinegar eels, blackworms, white worms, grindal worms. They can be finacky eaters at first. But once they settle down into a tank, and get really hungry, they should start eating. Be careful not to overfeed them until you verify they are eating.


Will do. I'll go out there and clean out all of the brine shrimp and the few bloodworms I left out there tomorrow morning just in case they decide to have munchies tonight.


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## klaus07 (Nov 23, 2011)

No they are carnivores, miniature predators. Wild fish often start off eating only live foods. They are ambush predators and hang out in plants, leaves, roots etc until dinner swims within stricking distance. I would put a few aged leaves in your water. How hard is your water?


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

klaus07 said:


> No they are carnivores, miniature predators. Wild fish often start off eating only live foods. They are ambush predators and hang out in plants, leaves, roots etc until dinner swims within stricking distance. I would put a few aged leaves in your water. How hard is your water?


Dinner is swimming by and nobody is striking... I guess they're still settling in then.

Not sure of the hardness, as I don't have a test kit yet. I filled it up with hose water and let the chlorine evaporate out, so there are minerals and stuff in there still. If needed, I can do some water changes with RO/DI to change the hardness.


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

when did you fill it up using the hose? with no test strips how do you know if its cycled? whats the temp? Does the temp meet there normal habitat?


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## scags (Sep 22, 2003)

I keep pygmies and I have to say getting them to eat anything that is not alive and wiggling is nearly impossible. Also your habitat looks a little on the iffy side. It looks like they might being kept on a patio or porch. What temps are they being kept at? Test your water and make sure your ammonia and nitrates are good. I also did not see any filtration, make sure you have at least a small filter going or you will see problems in the next few weeks.
The floating plants are nice but generally true floating plants should not have their roots buried in the substrate. Try putting in some hornwort, java moss, or other non surface floating plant. Pygmies love to hide among dense plant life...I mean stuffed to the brim! Your fish are most likely upset about the lack of plants and feel stressed.

Back to the food. Find them some LIVING food. Go to local fish stores and ask for live foods, brine shrimp, blackworms, daphnia. Anything small and wiggling will do. Pygmies are micro predators, they do not eat plants.

Another good place to find live food is [Ebay Link Removed] There are microworms, daphnia, and grindal worms for sale on there all the time at decent prices. Another place would be the swap and shop here on the plantedtank. Good luck my pygmie loving friend!


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## scags (Sep 22, 2003)

I can't identify those plants. Are you positive they are true aquatic plants? They almost look like deciduous plants found in landscaping or forests. You really need to put some true aquatic plants in there. True aquatic plants will also help in filtering the water.
Pygmies are not for beginners. You will have to invest a good deal of time and effort into them in order to keep them alive.

I cannot stress enough the importance of having at least a small corner filter. These guys will easily get fungal infections without one.


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## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

scags said:


> Another good place to find live food is [Ebay Link Removed] There are microworms, daphnia, and grindal worms for sale on there all the time at decent prices. Another place would be the swap and shop here on the plantedtank. Good luck my pygmie loving friend!


Scags: what is the number of the ebay link you tried to give here? I'm interested in seeing what they've got.

Thanks


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

scags said:


> I keep pygmies and I have to say getting them to eat anything that is not alive and wiggling is nearly impossible. Also your habitat looks a little on the iffy side. It looks like they might being kept on a patio or porch. What temps are they being kept at? Test your water and make sure your ammonia and nitrates are good. I also did not see any filtration, make sure you have at least a small filter going or you will see problems in the next few weeks.
> The floating plants are nice but generally true floating plants should not have their roots buried in the substrate. Try putting in some hornwort, java moss, or other non surface floating plant. Pygmies love to hide among dense plant life...I mean stuffed to the brim! Your fish are most likely upset about the lack of plants and feel stressed.
> 
> Back to the food. Find them some LIVING food. Go to local fish stores and ask for live foods, brine shrimp, blackworms, daphnia. Anything small and wiggling will do. Pygmies are micro predators, they do not eat plants.
> ...


I have been trying to feed them live brine, but they ignore it. I'll order some stuff on eBay I guess... What would you suggest? Blackworms, daphnia, ect? Or will the live brine work?



scags said:


> I can't identify those plants. Are you positive they are true aquatic plants? They almost look like deciduous plants found in landscaping or forests. You really need to put some true aquatic plants in there. True aquatic plants will also help in filtering the water.
> Pygmies are not for beginners. You will have to invest a good deal of time and effort into them in order to keep them alive.
> 
> I cannot stress enough the importance of having at least a small corner filter. These guys will easily get fungal infections without one.


I got them out of a local pond. They were floating on the surface with their roots anchoring them to the substrate in the pond. 

I don't have any filters out there right now because I can't run electricity out there yet... :icon_frow

I have about 15lbs of anacharis, a bag of some other pond plant and five or six lily pads coming on Tuesday.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Get live blackworms, daphnia or amphipods. They probably don't recognize the brine or they're too small for them to want to eat. Also adult brine shrimp are rather nutritionally empty.


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## scags (Sep 22, 2003)

Jeffww said:


> Get live blackworms, daphnia or amphipods. They probably don't recognize the brine or they're too small for them to want to eat. Also adult brine shrimp are rather nutritionally empty.



I gotta agree with Jeff. Blackworms, daphnia, or small crustaceans like amphipods. Although culturing blackworms and daphnia can be tricky. If you want something that is dummy proof go for grindal worms. 10 bucks will get you a nice package of grindals and pay for shipping too.

Pygmy Sunnies are picky eaters. You may have issues until you find the right food. 
Also at the risk of being slightly offensive why did you purchase Pygmies without a proper setup? I mean you probably should have had some kind of live food ready to go, and electricity so you could run a filter. I'm glad you have found these amazing little natives as interesting as I do, however it will be very sad if they simply die due to a lack of proper care...as it would be with any animal kept in captivity. I truly do wish you the best of luck with them and hope they do well for you. Just try to be thoughtful oftheir needs beforehand.

Here is a thread to my nano pygmy tank. They are maturing well and should be breeding soon. 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-nano-tanks/164767-pygmy-sunfish-nano-w-pics.html


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

Okay, so I guess I'm forced to order some worms on eBay lol... Can somebody PM me a link to a good freshwater food seller?

*If they won't go after live brine, why would they go after daphnia or blackworms?*


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Some animals will only eat something that is familiar to them. Brine shrimp are fairly active, but if the fish are not eating them, change to something else. Worms and Daphnia move in different ways, so look like something else. Perhaps the fish are looking for a particular behavior from their prey. 

Since you do not know what the fish will eat, if there is any way you can order small amounts of several things you would be able to figure it out. Then order lots of whatever it is they are eating. 

When you get them eating something (anything) then mix the meals so you are feeding them what they want, and something else in the hopes that they will begin to learn that the 'something else' is also food.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy said:


> Okay, so I guess I'm forced to order some worms on eBay lol... Can somebody PM me a link to a good freshwater food seller?
> 
> *If they won't go after live brine, why would they go after daphnia or blackworms?*


Hmm...


> Get live blackworms, daphnia or amphipods.* They probably don't recognize the brine or they're too small for them to want to eat*. Also adult brine shrimp are rather nutritionally empty.


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## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

Also, and this is purely unsolicited and I probably should just shut up but... The way you have that tub low to the floor it makes the fish think you might be a predator looming over them ready to eat them. I would maybe move that tub to a higher place. Jus sayin... And aren't these animals cold water fish?

Butting out now...


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## klaus07 (Nov 23, 2011)

It will take time, but they will eventually take frozen bloodworms, and other frozen foods that were once alive. Fish taken from the wild will likely not take frozen bloodworms for a while. If you feed them the same time every day and mix the frozen bloodworms in with live food they will eventually not need the live food. Wild fish will usually take frozen food upon sight once they get hungry enough. 

I agree with the comment about more plants. I have collected many pygmy sunfish and they aren't always associated with aquatic plants. They are often found lurking in leaf litter as well. Elassoma zonatum, in western KY and in central alabama hung out in roots at the banks. I have never found them in the open. At Wacissa, E. gilberti hides out in the roots of water hyacinthes. At Wakulla you can find them in the fontinalis. If you can find some aquatic mosses growing in your area you should also be able to separate out a lot of live food (watch out for predators).

Good luck and have patience.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

m00se said:


> Also, and this is purely unsolicited and I probably should just shut up but... The way you have that tub low to the floor it makes the fish think you might be a predator looming over them ready to eat them. I would maybe move that tub to a higher place. Jus sayin... And aren't these animals cold water fish?
> 
> Butting out now...


True... There's nowhere to move them up higher though because the shelves in the greenhouse won't hold them, plus there will be plants on them.

And yes, they are coldwater fish and they are being kept in those conditions. 50F night 60F day during winter, 70F night 80F day during summer. There is seasonal change in their environment.



klaus07 said:


> It will take time, but they will eventually take frozen bloodworms, and other frozen foods that were once alive. Fish taken from the wild will likely not take frozen bloodworms for a while. If you feed them the same time every day and mix the frozen bloodworms in with live food they will eventually not need the live food. Wild fish will usually take frozen food upon sight once they get hungry enough.
> 
> I agree with the comment about more plants. I have collected many pygmy sunfish and they aren't always associated with aquatic plants. They are often found lurking in leaf litter as well. Elassoma zonatum, in western KY and in central alabama hung out in roots at the banks. I have never found them in the open. At Wacissa, E. gilberti hides out in the roots of water hyacinthes. At Wakulla you can find them in the fontinalis. If you can find some aquatic mosses growing in your area you should also be able to separate out a lot of live food (watch out for predators).
> 
> Good luck and have patience.


Thanks. Their eBay description said they were eating live grindals and frozen bloodworms, so I don't know why they won't take the frozen bloodworms.

As I said, I have 15lb of anacharis, a bag of some other floating plant and five or six lily pads coming on Tuesday. I'll plant a bunch of the anacharis in the sand, put some lily pads to float on top, and float some of that other plant on top as well.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

This isn't _for sure_, but yesterday I put a pretty big pile of frozen bloodworms in the middle of the tank with plans to remove them today just so see if they would eat on their own, and maybe 1/4 was gone when I removed the pile and cleaned up around the tank. My plants will be here Tuesday at which point I can take these temporary plants out and load it up with anacharis like there's no tomorrow. :icon_roll

Something called "eelgrass" or something was sent... Supposed to be long and wavy like grass, and it floats on the surface or attaches to the bottom. The anacharis just floats. The lily pads should provide some shade and a nice area to chill out under for them, so I'll put maybe four of those in there depending on how big they are. :redface:


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

Wow, I just collected a bunch of these and somehow ran across this thread, they look cool but didn't know they were picky eaters and surely didn't know people paid money for ditch fish.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

eklikewhoa said:


> Wow, I just collected a bunch of these and somehow ran across this thread, they look cool but didn't know they were picky eaters and surely didn't know people paid money for ditch fish.


Where did you collect these in houston?


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

The ditches alongside the road? Got a bunch of cool stuff. 

I have pictures and thread posted over on houstonfishbox.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

one of the locals got some neocardinas... in the ditches.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Wow that's awesome. Off to HFB! 

edit: Nice tadpole lol. Never seen a bullfrog tadpole get that big.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

OMG they still won't eat a thing! One of the males died, he wasn't very active from the time I got him. All of the others are okay. Not sure why he died, I found him lying on the surface barely breathing, so I made sure the temperature was okay and shaded the tank, but when I came back later to see if he was still alive, he was a goner. No fungus, nothing physically wrong with him... Dunno. The other three are fine though -- flapping their fins and swimming around and hiding in the plants.

You would think that since the eBay ad said they were eating frozen bloodworms, they would be eating frozen bloodworms. -_-


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## klaus07 (Nov 23, 2011)

Those would be Elassoma zonatum, the banded pygmy sunfish. It is the largest of the Elas and the easiest to feed. Also a little less shy and the most generalized of the bunch. It is found all along the east and gulf coasts to texas anyway, and all the way to Reelfoot and the Bootheel of Missouri. It is found in western Ky as far east as Cypress Creek. 

I have collected them in NC, FL, Al. LA, MS, TX, KY and probably a few more places I've forgotten about.

Klaus


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## klaus07 (Nov 23, 2011)

Guppy*5, you didn't say which species you have. I am thinking it is either okefeenokee or evergladei, though it could be gilberti, or a local form called orlandicum. What part of Florida did they come from. I recently bought some golden ears from that guy on ebay and they came in with fungused fins. I delayed feeding them for a week. Excellent water conditions and underfeeding, until their health improves is working. His add makes it look like he is sending aquarium raised fish, the fish I got were wild. I am guessing yours are too. 

I would throw a bunch of plants in there and let them nibble on the microfauna. 

Klaus


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

klaus07 said:


> Guppy*5, you didn't say which species you have. I am thinking it is either okefeenokee or evergladei, though it could be gilberti, or a local form called orlandicum. What part of Florida did they come from. I recently bought some golden ears from that guy on ebay and they came in with fungused fins. I delayed feeding them for a week. Excellent water conditions and underfeeding, until their health improves is working. His add makes it look like he is sending aquarium raised fish, the fish I got were wild. I am guessing yours are too.
> 
> I would throw a bunch of plants in there and let them nibble on the microfauna.
> 
> Klaus


Sorry! Evergladei, wild caught from the everglades in north Florida.

The plants WILL be here tomorrow, as they just arrived in the state and they should be out for delivery tomorrow. They were in bags since leap day, February 29, so they will have been in bags for an entire week when I get them. *Are you suggesting I shouldn't wash it with hose water to keep the microfauna on there? Should I wash it in anything, or just make sure there's no mud/dirt and chuck it in?*

I contacted the guy and inquired about their feeding once I realized they wouldn't eat. He told me they weren't for beginners (could've been in the eBay ad! Could have been told to me when recommended for this specific tank! Did research on the species, but nothing about their feeding!... Stupid me) and not to give up on trying to feed them. 

*Aside from throwing the plants in for them to nibble on microfauna, how long should I wait before trying to feed again? Today I put more bloodworms in a pile to be removed tomorrow if not eaten. Should I continue that?*

I'll try my best to do some water changes and remove dead brine shrimp from the substrate. *What is the maximum amount of water I should change?*


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

If there is no filtration maybe try changing at least some of the water every day? The anachris will become rooted if you stick the ends in the substrate. Mine grew roots into the substrate from just being weighted down on top of it. 

Where in the US are you? It actually snowed here the other day but I have been keeping a mosquito larva culture going outside now for a couple of months. I think it'd be easy to start one inside the greenhouse or a separate one outside. I have not gone wrong with mosquito larva- even before I had planted tanks, when I just had empty fish tanks, none of my fish had ever refused a mosquito larva. 

I would not put so many of the worms in there at once. they might be eating them but you might not be noticing because of the sheer number. Add a counted amount if you can and then check every few hours to see if any are gone. I would definitely try and get a hold of some mosquito larva if you can, it's probably the most recognizable live food for wild caught fish. (Especially in Florida, where the mosquitoes are the size of lions) For the most part, you can look up bodies of water in your area and scope them out. Stagnant water on the sides of roads and ponds may have them too. If all else fails, try starting one by leaving out some dirty water with a plant or two in it near a lighted area at night and see if you can get any in there. 

I've never dealt with a particularly picky fish though, so I'm not totally useful, but hopefully some of the info here will be useful for you. If they live and you want to learn more about the compost bins, send me a PM and I'll tell you what I know! 

If you want to keep feeding them live foods for a while, maybe you can try starting a vermicompost bin. It'll be beneficial to you in every way. There are many instructions online for bins. The only thing that will cost money are the worms, maybe the bins if you don't have one handy, but that's about it. You might even be able to get wild-collected worms depending on where you are, but you'll want red wrigglers. 

I have a bin, it reduces my trips to the dump, gives castings for my plants, and gives worms for my fish and other pets. It doesn't smell when done right either, and I sell little cups of the worms as bait so I actually make a little money on the side for my tanks as well. 

Just something to look into if the remaining ones start eating.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

Sometimes it's best to research about what you are buying... seeing as though these were mail ordered and not LFS impulse I imagine you had time to do so. 

Just saying. 

Sorry to say but I think you might end up losing them all. Ordering plants is probably not gonna help since any life form that could have been on it would probably die off in transit and if anything wouldn't be much to begin with unless it was enough to stuff the whole bucket or tray thing you have going there. 

Best bet is to run to the store and try and hatch some brine shrimp, fairly easy and quick.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

Two more died. The only one that hasn't died is the one that was eating a bit and she's slightly plump. :thumbsdow


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

No filter, or water flow, means no oxygen, especially at night. Heavy foods like blood worms not being eaten cause ammonia and nitrite spikes in unfiltered tanks. No oxygen, toxic chemicals, fish are going to die.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

I received the plants today. I got so much that I filled two tubs completely full of anacharis, and there was so much it went out of the water! The "eel weed" I got needs an ID, so I'll post pics tomorrow. It filled about half a container. The lily pads were crushed, so I removed the leafy part and threw the stems in some water, hoping that they'll sprout. The tanks were packed so full of anacharis that the fish wouldn't be able to swim through them. I'll kinda evenly distribute it between all of the tanks so that I can see fish if I'm lucky and they will be able to swim through it, great for breeding. It will hopefully keep them from jumping out. 

Oh, and the tanks are warming up into the 80s during the day if I leave the lid on, so around 70 at night. I can keep tropicals now.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

if you leave the lid on the tubs there would be minimal oxygen exchange.

ultimate fail thread in all honesty. 

I got 3-4 of these sunfish if you wanna buy more.


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## stsalerno (Feb 25, 2011)

eklikewhoa said:


> if you leave the lid on the tubs there would be minimal oxygen exchange.
> 
> ultimate fail thread in all honesty.
> 
> I got 3-4 of these sunfish if you wanna buy more.


I have a feeling that would be a death sentence for the poor things.:icon_neut


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## TedP (Mar 25, 2011)

I have a lid on my tub that's densely planted and heavily stocked with breeding livebearers. They have been doing great for 9 months. 

There is one small hole on the edge of the top for e heater cord. Not other filtration, aeration, or water movement.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

TedP said:


> I have a lid on my tub that's densely planted and heavily stocked with breeding livebearers. They have been doing great for 9 months.
> 
> There is one small hole on the edge of the top for e heater cord. Not other filtration, aeration, or water movement.



Was your bucket established? Makes a world of difference


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

You're all so silly, not reading and then telling me I did something wrong even though it was already discussed. :hihi:

The tank was cycled, there was enough oxygen in the water, the temperatures were fine, they just wouldn't eat. If you insist that I did every possible thing wrong, then what would explain every single one dying EXCEPT for the one that was eating a bit? :wink:

You should be helping and encouraging newbies to this hobby rather than harassing them and making them feel stupid. If you think your so hot, then go buy some freshly wild collected fish that are a hassle to take care of that aren't eating, then when you succeed, you can complain about my methods of husbandry. But seriously, what do you expect from a pond? These fish live in puddles on the sides of the road, they don't have filtration or heating... What difference is it? 

The issue is they wouldn't eat. I have white cloud mountain minnows in containers out there with no plants, a sealed lid and no filtration and they're doing perfect. Of course, when I received my plants, I filled half of the container with them and the fish are extremely happy now! :biggrin:


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## LetThereBeFish (Dec 7, 2011)

Hey..hey..hey now. What you call harassing, I call telling what needs to known. Putting stressed out fish from shipping into a container of water with no filtration or aeration is asking for trouble. Plants can help filter somethings, but not everything. There's also a difference between a pond/puddle and a 10-20g container of water. The pond/puddles tend to be larger, so toxins are less concentrated. They are also filtered by natural ways; rain, plants, etc. Since the sunfish are most likely born there, there is no need for acclimation. And their native food is also present.

I know losing fish is stressful; used to happen to me all the time. If you're having trouble keeping them outdoors in a container, why not keep them indoors, where you can house them properly. Fish usually eat when they are living in a proper enviroment. Feeling stupid isn't wrong. I used to feel stupid when I realized I did certain things wrong; goldfish in bowls, not cycling a tank etc. Once I learned, I never did thoughs mistakes again. Thats the process of learning my friend.


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## TedP (Mar 25, 2011)

eklikewhoa said:


> Was your bucket established? Makes a world of difference


It sat growing plants for 2 months without fish. Then another 2 months untouched with 5 mosquitofish (plus any fry they dropped).

Then I put the stuff I wanted to breed in it. 

But when I say densely planted, I mean almost as much plant mass as water. 

As far as the sunfishes natural habitat. They live in canals and roadside ditches. Calling them a puddle portrays an inaccurate image. A roadside ditch is often 100s of gallons, even the smallest ones. Plus, the water table is so low, these are not stagnant pools. At least not the ones with fish in them.

Then when you refer to Big Cypress and the Everglades, you are really referring to a water system that is connected from at least Central Florida south to the very tip of the state. It's basically one giant body of water.


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## variable (Jan 11, 2012)

GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy said:


> But seriously, what do you expect from a pond? These fish live in puddles on the sides of the road, they don't have filtration or heating... What difference is it?


Erm, if these fish are collected from the side of the road in S. Florida near the Everglades, they aren't living in puddles. They are living in CANALS. There's a network of water control canals all along S. Florida roads. The canals are at least five feet deep, with constantly moving water over a limestone aquifer, copious mosquitos and other larvae, and a distinct, stable temperature gradient from surface to bottom -- meaning the fish are from a very well filtered environment where they can choose a comfortable temp and also choose their food. Of course it will be difficult to acclimate them to a small tub with wildly varying temperatures, stagnant water, and dead food.



GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy said:


> If you think your so hot, then go buy some freshly wild collected fish that are a hassle to take care of that aren't eating, then when you succeed, you can complain about my methods of husbandry.


I think the point people are trying to make is that if you consider yourself a newbie, freshly wild collected fish that are a hassle to take care of are not the best thing to start with. As demonstrated by your success with the WCM :wink:. 

And if you do choose to go with freshly wild collected fish that are a hassle to take care of, the more potential problems you can avoid the better. So buy the plants first, get a live food culture ready, and have a battery powered air pump ready at least for the first few nights.

Also you might search online for tank raised native fish -- they'll probably be more expensive, but they might live longer.


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## variable (Jan 11, 2012)

Ack, ninja'd :icon_smil


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

variable said:


> Erm, if these fish are collected from the side of the road in S. Florida near the Everglades, they aren't living in puddles. They are living in CANALS. There's a network of water control canals all along S. Florida roads. The canals are at least five feet deep, with constantly moving water over a limestone aquifer, copious mosquitos and other larvae, and a distinct, stable temperature gradient from surface to bottom -- meaning the fish are from a very well filtered environment where they can choose a comfortable temp and also choose their food. Of course it will be difficult to acclimate them to a small tub with wildly varying temperatures, stagnant water, and dead food.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was actually told on here to try pygmy sunfish, but it was my fault for not researching. :tongue:

I'll probably just get some golden topminnows. *Are golden topminnows difficult to take care of or to feed?*


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Minnows in general are hard to take care of. They need moving water and are very active. I think step one is to look up fishless cycling...This is a planted tank forum but a lot of people here don't know the first thing on setting up the old fashioned way. People are always yammering about shoving plants into the tank to start up the cycle but nothing beats dosing pure ammonia. In all honesty I think the issue was that your bucket was not as cycled as you thought. 

On the other forum I frequent the first question to come out is: "What are your parameters, in ppm, of nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia." Without these numbers you can *not* be sure whether your water is hospitable to aquatic life. 

As for your interest in natives I'd have to say that you're going to have to wait awhile; natives are picky eaters and like certain conditions that are rather difficult to provide. To be honest the pygmy sunfish is one of the easiest natives to rear and judging by the floundering around that happened in this case I'd stick to something like paradise fishs which breed readily in outdoor tubs. 

Also don't give me the "Tanks was cycled/ established" BS or that plants will solve the problem. Plants will NOT solve the problem of poor husbandry and I refuse to believe you without numbers. 

And may I ask what your motivations are in breeding? If you're going for money; give up. Breeding fish (especially fish in low demand such as pygmy sunfish) is not lucrative at all. You're better off buying a rare crypt and letting it sit in a tub for half a year or raising shrimp if you're trying to farm some cash.


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## klaus07 (Nov 23, 2011)

I have to respectfully disagree. For the most part minnows are extremely easy to take care of. Most of them eat everything thrown into the tank whether it be live, frozen, pellet or flake food. The problem is getting them home in good shape. In the warm sun of the south it is best to collect in the winter months, when wild pathogens are low. In the summer, you can burn the fin edges of the fish from the time you collect them to when you put them into your bucket. It is best to quarantine fish from the wild and treat them if you see any sign of fin rot or fungus. Once you are sure they are healthy, then they are as hardy as any tropical cyprinid. 

Guppy*5, now that you have a lot of anacharis in your tub.... how large is it? I would not feed the fish at all. As an example, a few years back I bought about 50 bunches of Egeria densa and I put them out in the spring weather in several 40 gallon fiberglass vats. Night time temperatures got to near or at freezing several times and daytime temperatures varied from 50 or so to 80. In June, as I was fishing out some plants I saw movement. Quite a few blue fin killies must have arrived with the plants as eggs, had hatched and grown to adulthood without even a speck of food. My advise, stop obsessing about these fish and let them graze on the microfauna. Blue fin killies can be just as finacky as as dwarf sunnies. In fact I have had some that ONLY ate live food. I tossed them in a larger pond, I never feed them, and by the end of summer I had a couple hundred bluefins

Klaus


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

Jeffww said:


> Also don't give me the "Tanks was cycled/ established" BS or that plants will solve the problem.


Already discussed, re-discussed and discussed again. 

I want to breed them just to breed them. I'll sell to LFS or give away to friends any extras. I want fish in the tanks to eat any mosquito larvae that may pop up in the summer. Breeding them is just cool though.



klaus07 said:


> I have to respectfully disagree. For the most part minnows are extremely easy to take care of. Most of them eat everything thrown into the tank whether it be live, frozen, pellet or flake food. The problem is getting them home in good shape. In the warm sun of the south it is best to collect in the winter months, when wild pathogens are low. In the summer, you can burn the fin edges of the fish from the time you collect them to when you put them into your bucket. It is best to quarantine fish from the wild and treat them if you see any sign of fin rot or fungus. Once you are sure they are healthy, then they are as hardy as any tropical cyprinid.
> 
> Guppy*5, now that you have a lot of anacharis in your tub.... how large is it? I would not feed the fish at all. As an example, a few years back I bought about 50 bunches of Egeria densa and I put them out in the spring weather in several 40 gallon fiberglass vats. Night time temperatures got to near or at freezing several times and daytime temperatures varied from 50 or so to 80. In June, as I was fishing out some plants I saw movement. Quite a few blue fin killies must have arrived with the plants as eggs, had hatched and grown to adulthood without even a speck of food. My advise, stop obsessing about these fish and let them graze on the microfauna. Blue fin killies can be just as finacky as as dwarf sunnies. In fact I have had some that ONLY ate live food. I tossed them in a larger pond, I never feed them, and by the end of summer I had a couple hundred bluefins
> 
> Klaus


Thank you for the reply! 

The tubs are each 13.5g and there are four. One is completely full of anacharis where it is sticking out of the water. The one with the white clouds is half-full of anacharis, packed thickly, but enough for fish to swim through, and they like it. The tub that used to house the pygmies (all dead except that one female that was eating) is also half full of anacharis. Another tub is half full of that other pond weed that needs an ID. My goal is to get to the point where I don't need to feed them at all. I was thinking that the omnivores like guppies would eat some of the anacharis and other plants as well. I should be able to keep guppies out there now because it's definitely warm enough for them now, 70F/80F (day/night). I'll let the tanks sit with the anacharis for a while before I add any fish though.

However, when I received the plants, they were covered in mud, and I had to rinse them with a hose (tap water) and still didn't get all of the mud off. Didn't see any critters in there, so I doubt any survived if there were some.

Should I seed the tanks with some sort of pod? If so, what would be best?


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Supply us with test numbers then: 
Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:


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## amphirion (Nov 13, 2008)

im so sorry to hear that you've had problems with these guys. they are by far one of my favorite nano fish to keep. they live in near stagnant conditions in a heavily planted tank. 
when i first heard that they werent eating for you, i highly suspect it is because they require a diet of LIVE microfauna to eat. prior before purchasing these fish, i purchased a large supply of microfauna (scuds, daphnia, rotifers etc) and released them into my tank in order to establish a stable food supply. then i introduced my fish into the tank. being heavily planted allows places for these smaller organisms to breed and continue giving the sunfish a continuous food supply. i also have a large colony of cherry shrimp which allows for larger prey items.

to sum it up: they are live food only fish, and you must be capable of producing your own food cultures in order for long term captivity.

here's a young male of mine, elassoma okeefenokee:


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

TedP said:


> It sat growing plants for 2 months without fish. Then another 2 months untouched with 5 mosquitofish (plus any fry they dropped).
> 
> Then I put the stuff I wanted to breed in it.
> 
> ...



I know where they inhibit and how it's vegetated, I collected mine personally. :biggrin:


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

I'm keeping a blackstripe topminnow and a Golden topminnow and on day two after being collected from the creek they were accepting flakes and spirulina brineshrimp


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## klaus07 (Nov 23, 2011)

Yeah killies from the genus Fundulus eat anything like pigs. Very easy to feed. Some can be very territorial though and will slowly kill each other off in a spartan or too small tank.


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## klaus07 (Nov 23, 2011)

amphirion, I imagine your okeefenokees eat baby neos, but with such small mouths I bet they don't bother adults.


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## amphirion (Nov 13, 2008)

klaus07 said:


> amphirion, I imagine your okeefenokees eat baby neos, but with such small mouths I bet they don't bother adults.


yes. this is what i meant by larger prey items...as you can see from the photo above, there's no way a fish like that could tackle an adult cherry. :hihi:


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## TedP (Mar 25, 2011)

I agree, Golden Topminnows which are killifish are fairly easy to take care of. Mine eat flakes and pellets readily. 

When I had surgery, my tank went too long without a water change and my CO2 ran out. Poor water quality and BBA resulted. The topminnows were still going strong.

All are wild caught. Some live in my 30g planted and some live in my tub. I haven't had my large pair breed in my 30 but there are a lot of predators in there. My tub is hard to track whats going on in there.

Eklikewhoa, I wasn't responding to you with my post about where they live. You didn't say they came from a puddle.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

amphirion said:


> im so sorry to hear that you've had problems with these guys. they are by far one of my favorite nano fish to keep. they live in near stagnant conditions in a heavily planted tank.
> when i first heard that they werent eating for you, i highly suspect it is because they require a diet of LIVE microfauna to eat. prior before purchasing these fish, i purchased a large supply of microfauna (scuds, daphnia, rotifers etc) and released them into my tank in order to establish a stable food supply. then i introduced my fish into the tank. being heavily planted allows places for these smaller organisms to breed and continue giving the sunfish a continuous food supply. i also have a large colony of cherry shrimp which allows for larger prey items.
> 
> to sum it up: they are live food only fish, and you must be capable of producing your own food cultures in order for long term captivity.
> ...


OMG you're the dude from TF! Pineapple... 

I guess I'll find somewhere than sells daphnia and stuff... Or I'll order it on eBay.

Update: The female that was eating and is still plump... Found her in the corner of the tank away from the pond weeds, all happy still! It was definitely the lack of food, since the only survivor is the only one that is eating. I'm going to contact the seller and see what they can do since they said that all of them were feeding on frozen bloodworms, which is obviously untrue...


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

Ran across this thread again and went to go check my sunfish (they are in a tank on the floor) and saw all four of my wildcaught pygmys nice and fat! 

I've been feeding a dry staple mix(NLS Thera+A,NLS CichlidFormula, Tetra ColorFlakes) and frozen Hikari Spirulina brine shrimp. 

I found some small pond/ramshorn snails in my other tank and I think they are sucking those out too so that might help you if you have a ditch or something somewhere.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

That one female is still alive! It's not my conditions, it was the fish.


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## klaus07 (Nov 23, 2011)

guppy*5 that is very likely true. I got some golden topminnows from some guy on eeeebayyy two weeks ago. About the same time you got your pygmy sunnies. They looked nothing like their picture, and worse still most of them had fungus growing on them and rotting fins. These were definitly wild caght fish, and mismatched. About a third of them are melanistic (4 fish). They went into a newly setup 20 long tank with a bottom of MGOTS capped by black diamond coal slag. The tank has lots of plants. Ammonia and nitrite have not been issues. The fish ate immediately, the fungus has disappeared and the fins are growing back. 

Some killifish are caught in puddles. Near Holt, Florida I took over 20 Fundulus cingulatus out of a puddle no larger than 20 gallons and about 15 degrees warmer than the nearby creek. 

Today I got some Elassoma okeefenokee. I still need to check with Chris to see what drainage they are from. There is an outside chance they are E. gilberti. I am tossing them into a planted tank and I am going to leave them alone for a week or so. There is plenty of microfauna in the tank where they are going.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm contacting the seller and asserting that it was not my fault they died because the one that was actually eat and actively swimming is still alive. He stated clearly in the eBay ad that they were eating FROZEN BLOODWORMS, which I fed them with no luck. If he doesn't send me at least one, free, eating male that survives, he's going to end up with some feedback.


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## pglenn (Aug 13, 2004)

GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy said:


> Don't know of any around here that do, and the one that may have them is a two hour drive away.


if you havent got them eating yet it may be worth the drive. sunfish ESPECIALLY pygmy's really want live food and blackworms are one of their treats. black worms are actually not hard to keep. I bought a small batch 2 months ago and will probably have some for months to come. tupperware with tiny breath holes in top, about 1/2 to 3/4 inches of water, distilled water, most or all of water changes every 3 days, keep in fridge, add very small amount of sinking fish food after water changes.


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy said:


> I'm contacting the seller and asserting that it was not my fault they died because the one that was actually eat and actively swimming is still alive. He stated clearly in the eBay ad that they were eating FROZEN BLOODWORMS, which I fed them with no luck. If he doesn't send me at least one, free, eating male that survives, he's going to end up with some feedback.




Not to be an ass here, but, this is exactly why I don't sell on ebay anymore. The fish may well have been eating frozen bloodworms, and perhaps, just maybe, the shipping stressed them out and made them not want to eat. Demanding more free fish from him after you received three, healthy, alive fish and leaving him a negative if you don't get one isn't good business. I've had this done to me before (for a $1 item, btw, when the error was clearly the buyer's), and I can say from personal experience that threatening and blackmailing a seller isn't the way to go. Be sure to tell him that you were keeping them in an unfiltered, unheated bin in your greenhouse, did not even know what your water parameters were, and that you were throwing in a lot of food. did you even acclimate the fish?

If you are upset with the fish dying from something that did not occur as a problem with the seller, then request a return if you are still within the return period, if one was offered, rather than trying to blackmail the seller into sending you more objects for free. More often than not a seller is going to be a lot more open to negotiation if you aren't trying to blackmail them.

Ebay gives far too much power to buyers now. If I could, I'd leave negatives for all the horrible buyers I have had to deal with, Unfortunately, I can only leave positives.


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## DesmondTheMoonBear (Dec 19, 2011)

Bunfoo said:


> Not to be an ass here, but, this is exactly why I don't sell on ebay anymore. The fish may well have been eating frozen bloodworms, and perhaps, just maybe, the shipping stressed them out and made them not want to eat. Demanding more free fish from him after you received three, healthy, alive fish and leaving him a negative if you don't get one isn't good business. I've had this done to me before (for a $1 item, btw, when the error was clearly the buyer's), and I can say from personal experience that threatening and blackmailing a seller isn't the way to go. Be sure to tell him that you were keeping them in an unfiltered, unheated bin in your greenhouse, did not even know what your water parameters were, and that you were throwing in a lot of food. did you even acclimate the fish?
> 
> If you are upset with the fish dying from something that did not occur as a problem with the seller, then request a return if you are still within the return period, if one was offered, rather than trying to blackmail the seller into sending you more objects for free. More often than not a seller is going to be a lot more open to negotiation if you aren't trying to blackmail them.
> 
> Ebay gives far too much power to buyers now. If I could, I'd leave negatives for all the horrible buyers I have had to deal with, Unfortunately, I can only leave positives.


This.

I was alright a bit upset once I saw what you were keeping them in, let alone that you didn't have any LIVE food for them. I typically research for at least a month before I buy any specific fish. Even for ones I don't think I'll be able to get, since impulse buys from the LFS are always present for me. You really can't expect pygmy sunfish to thrive with frozen food, an uncycled bin full of water, and a relatively unstable enviorment. Your lone female is simply there because of survival of the fittest. About the seller stating the pygmies were eating frozen bloodworms; They probably were since they were in a stress free, healthy enviorment, yet they still received their live food in the form of worms.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

I had live food for them. They wouldn't accept it.


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## DesmondTheMoonBear (Dec 19, 2011)

GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy said:


> I had live food for them. They wouldn't accept it.


 
What was the live food? Guess I missed it somewhere.


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## GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy (Feb 11, 2012)

DesmondTheMoonBear said:


> What was the live food? Guess I missed it somewhere.


Brine shrimp... Apparently if it's not in their natural habitat, they can't eat it though. :angryfire


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy said:


> I had live food for them. They wouldn't accept it.


That is in no way the fault of the seller. The stress on those fish alone from being shipped and put in a new environment was enough to prohibit them from eating. They would have eaten the live foods if they were going to eat at all. The fact they did not except live or frozen foods only goes to show that the fault of them dying lies with YOU and not the seller. I'm positive they were eating food before they were shipped. You cannot blame and punish the seller because the fish (which are animals and prone to starving themselves under stress) decided they did not want to eat any food at all, frozen or live.

Furthermore, the fish wouldn't have died so soon from starvation. Most likely they died of something else. Temperature shock, stress from shipping, stress from going from whatever setup they were in before to your setup, which I'm sure was not as suitable as whatever they were in before, tank or roadside puddle.


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## AndrewRogue (Aug 3, 2011)

I just want to say, you shouldn't say that, just because one fish survived, that it was the fish's fault or the seller's fault. That's silly. 

Back in my days of exteme lazy ignorance I had a pair of Betta in a small, split gallon tank that was relatively uncared for. One of the Bettas died. The other lived (and, in fact, still lives to this day, although in a MUCH better home). Was the fish that died faulty? Should I have blamed Petco?

No. It was damn well my fault. Honestly, I remain amazed that the other one actually lived.

Don't be so fast to blame the seller or the fish just because one survived. Just like an animal can be abnormally weak, it is possible for it to be abnormally strong.


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## Pen3 (Jan 2, 2007)

my worst experience as a ebay seller was on a brand new dobyns DX rod. I have shipped 50+ and never had a broken, but of course that was on tackletour forum. i package them in pvc tube with the butt end of the rod in bubble wrap and i tape the bubble wrap to one side of the tube so the tip never hits the bottom. Anyways the buyer said the tip broke, but wont send me pictures for a week and when he did it was all blurry pics or pics of something that look like 2 different rods and not showing the broken parts like he was laying down 2 rods opposite from each other. In the end i refunded him for a Dobyns lifetime no hassle RMA fee+shipping which was $80.

But yeah being a Seller is tough on ebay with dishonest or ignorant people.


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## DerekFF (May 24, 2011)

Bunfoo said:


> That is in no way the fault of the seller. The stress on those fish alone from being shipped and put in a new environment was enough to prohibit them from eating. They would have eaten the live foods if they were going to eat at all. The fact they did not except live or frozen foods only goes to show that the fault of them dying lies with YOU and not the seller. I'm positive they were eating food before they were shipped. You cannot blame and punish the seller because the fish (which are animals and prone to starving themselves under stress) decided they did not want to eat any food at all, frozen or live.
> 
> Furthermore, the fish wouldn't have died so soon from starvation. Most likely they died of something else. Temperature shock, stress from shipping, stress from going from whatever setup they were in before to your setup, which I'm sure was not as suitable as whatever they were in before, tank or roadside puddle.


+1 this thread makes my eyes bleed for the sheer shenanigans of blaming the seller. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

If you need extra aeration, you can use even a battery operated pump. I have one that I use for my bucket while fishing and keep my live bait in there. You can run it while you're in your greenhouse and move it around as you're out there. Every little bit helps.


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## MrBrongher (Jan 27, 2012)

I hesitate to ask here, but I was researching Pygmy sunfish (evergadei) care and came across this thread. My plan is to keep them in a tub outdoors and if anyone wants to poke holes in this _before_ I try it, please do.

The tub is a round 17 gallon one, but I didn't fill it all the way so let's conservatively call it 10 gallons. Its filled with water from my pond (I need a new UV bulb, so it's a little green, but that's never hurt fish.) I plan to change about 3 gallons of it every other day. It was only filled today.

Inside are just a mess of plants. I intend to add more today or tomorrow. 
I'll be adding a sponge filter from my 55 gallon tank that's been running in there for about 3 months.

I have plenty of mosquito larvae and I imagine the momma Mosquitos will provide me with more. I also have plenty of microforms. My adult angelfish used to inhale them when I fed their fry, so I don't think they'll be too small, but that doesn't mean the sunfish will eat them of course. The water is in the low 60's now, I imagine it'll dip into the low 50's at night.

That's about it. Should I detect any nitrite or ammonia I can do 100% water changes till the cows come home, my pond won't miss it. Hit me with your worst case scenarios and criticism, please.


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## MrBrongher (Jan 27, 2012)

Just an FYI, iPads prefer microforms to microworms.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

MrBrongher said:


> I hesitate to ask here, but I was researching Pygmy sunfish (evergadei) care and came across this thread. My plan is to keep them in a tub outdoors and if anyone wants to poke holes in this _before_ I try it, please do.


you need water movement and insulation on the tub. A pond is naturally insulated because it's in the ground. Any fish in there especially in NYC will cook in the summer or at least the water will have zero oxygen.

Some insulation I can think of is to build a brick enclosure around it. No need for mortar. Then fill in the space between the tub and the bricks with soil. You can plant some plants in the soil to make it look nice.


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## MrBrongher (Jan 27, 2012)

mistergreen said:


> you need water movement and insulation on the tub. A pond is naturally insulated because it's in the ground. Any fish in there especially in NYC will cook in the summer or at least the water will have zero oxygen.
> 
> Some insulation I can think of is to build a brick enclosure around it. No need for mortar. Then fill in the space between the tub and the bricks with soil. You can plant some plants in the soil to make it look nice.


Well, the sponge filter should provide some movement - I plan to have the pump in my house with the line reaching out the window. While it's still coolish outside that will pump warmer house air through the tub, when it gets scorching it will pump AC air through it.

As far as insulation, it would certainly destroy the appeal of backyard fish tubbing to have to put unmortared brick treatments around the tubs. What I can do is monitor the temperature very well (I have a laser thermometer and love excuses to play with it) and if it is necessary put the tub in a hole in the ground. Fair deal?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

MrBrongher said:


> and if it is necessary put the tub in a hole in the ground. Fair deal?


that'll work. On the hottest day, try checking the temp. I used it live in Brooklyn so I know about the heat there


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

after reading this thread all i can say is research, research and more research then planning and preparing. For newbies and even pros for that matter, test kits are essential. I highly recommend you get one. API makes one that has everything you need for around 30 bucks. I would also recommend a drop cord to run a filter or at least an air pump on the tub.


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