# 29 Cycling problems



## potatoes (Dec 16, 2010)

Hi,
I set up a 29 gallon natural planted tank about 5 weeks ago. I used miracle grow organic choice potting mix, which soaked three times. I used black diamond blasting grit (the finest grain size, it was all they had). Ammonia was at 4ppm, everything melted, and i had hydrogen sulfide bubbles, which allowed soil to burst though the cap. I am going to try to remove some of the soil with gravel vacs. some of the soil is setteling on plant leaves, which is very frustrating and i dont know how to fix it.` No filter no heater. 48watt HO T-5 (or T8, i dont remember or know the difference) 

After weekly 30% water changes with dechlorinated water, the ammonia was still at 4ppm. I added new plants 2 weeks later and added a 160gph powerhead. I took some sponge from the filter of an established tank and put some over the intake about output of the powerhead. The ammonia began to drop and nitrites rose after a few days. I was busey with exams and did not check the parameters for a week, but ammonia is back up and there are no nitrites or nitrates. What happened to my cycle?

I am getting lots of plant growth. I have lots of sunset hygro, edola, amazon sword, dwarf sag, dwarf chain sword, cypts,ninja grass, dwarf lillies, and some other plants i cant ID. I have duckweed, frogbit, and water lettuce on the surface, which covered half the surface in a week. I removed half of it today.

I cant figure out what halted my cycle. I am thinking th e powerhead is not powerful enough since i covered it, and i am going to get a bigger one today and see if it improves. Any ideas? Thanks.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

potatoes said:


> Hi,
> No filter no heater.


That is a problem. The filter is where most of your bacteria (ammonia removers) will live. Its not impossible to cycle a tank without a filter, but its much harder. The filter will provide the ultimate bacteria colony hangout...


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## msawdey (Apr 6, 2009)

potatoes said:


> Hi,
> I set up a 29 gallon natural planted tank about 5 weeks ago. I used miracle grow organic choice potting mix, which soaked three times. I used black diamond blasting grit (the finest grain size, it was all they had). Ammonia was at 4ppm, everything melted, and i had hydrogen sulfide bubbles, which allowed soil to burst though the cap. I am going to try to remove some of the soil with gravel vacs. some of the soil is setteling on plant leaves, which is very frustrating and i dont know how to fix it.` No filter no heater. 48watt HO T-5 (or T8, i dont remember or know the difference)
> 
> After weekly 30% water changes with dechlorinated water, the ammonia was still at 4ppm. I added new plants 2 weeks later and added a 160gph powerhead. I took some sponge from the filter of an established tank and put some over the intake about output of the powerhead. The ammonia began to drop and nitrites rose after a few days. I was busey with exams and did not check the parameters for a week, but ammonia is back up and there are no nitrites or nitrates. What happened to my cycle?
> ...



not cycling has nothing to do with your powerhead.. craig is right in that you dont have a filter.. most filters come with what i refer to as bioballs.. they are ceramic balls that bacteria can grow on.. these bactera are what cycle your take and turn ammonia and nitrites into nitrates..


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Actually most of the colonies grow on the sponge part or the filter fiber...  and yes they do also grow in the bio ball things if your filter has those.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm betting the tank will cycle eventually, but the filter would be a prime spot for bacteria, and the lack of one is IMO slowing the process. It's also possible that a lack of flow could be part of the problem. A filter would help with that, too.

If you achieve good results without a filter or heater, then screwit, why bother? But I do think the lack of a filter is the reason you're still cycling. By the way, something has to be decomposing for the cycling process to function. I'm assuming you're adding ammonia, or fish food, or a cocktail shrimp, or something which will add ammonia to the water column. If not much ammonia is being produced (by decomposing plant matter, for example), not many bacteria will be propagating, slowing the process down.

Also, in regards to the T5 rating that you asked about, T5's are more efficient than a T8, and I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that a T5NO at x watts will produce higher light than a T8 at x watts. Either way, the "5" is a measurement of eights of an inch. A T12 is 12/8, or 1 1/2 inches in diameter, a T8 is 8/8, or one inch, and a T5 is 5/8 inches.


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## boringname (Nov 11, 2010)

"miracle grow organic choice potting mix,"

This is a fertilizer rich soil which will take a while to stop leaching out the fertilizers into the soil.


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## potatoes (Dec 16, 2010)

Wow, thanks for all the responses! I am not adding ammonia, there is huge amounts from the soil. I am confused about the filter. I thought that a powerhead with sponges on the initial and output would essentially be a sponge filter since of the porous material (filter sponge, so i dont see why it would not work), ready supply of nutrients, and high water flow which i assumed would bring everything the bacteria need, including oxygen. is it not aerobic enough or something? I have a filter i can use, but it is HOB and i am scared that the waterfall will create too much surface disturbance and allow my co2 to escape, seeing as c02 is probably my limiting factor (i think)

I believe it is T5 HO at 48watts. I have no idea if that how much light i want. I can raise it (it is currently resting on the glass hood) or add another strip light depending on whether i have too much or too little light. 

So am I correct about the power head sponge filter idea? If not, what do you recommended? My goal with the power head was to get a filter that did not aggravate the surface, which all bubble driven sponge filters do...


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

48 watts of T5HO over a 29 gallon is a LOT of light, this is not a low tech tank. 

What is the GH and KH of the water? Nitrifying bacteria need some minerals to grow, and if the values of these are under about 3 degrees the bacteria will not grow. 

These bacteria are high oxygen users. They grow better in moving water that brings them more oxygen. If the powerhead is not creating good water movement through the tank then the bacteria will not grow well in enough population to handle the ammonia from a reasonable fish population, never mind the overproduction from soil that is still generating ammonia. The sponge over the intake is great, and that is where the most bacteria will be found, but it is not enough to handle all the ammonia from the soil. 
Never the less, you ought to see some nitrate by now!

Something is greatly slowing or stopping the growth of these bacteria.

I would set up the HOB filter, and add a strip of plastic over the outlet that directs the water to flow out almost horizontally, but just stops any splashing at the surface. You need some water movement at the surface, and some HOBs do this well without adding anything. Just keep the water level up over the lip of the HOB. Some HOBs sit too high and splash no matter how high the water in the tank is. This is the sort that I would add a strip of plastic to. 

You ought to get a drop checker to see what the CO2 level is in the water. I would guess the plants are using all that the soil is producing, so your tank is low in CO2, no excess to get driven off with surface water movement.


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## potatoes (Dec 16, 2010)

I just switched out the powerhead. You are right, something was impeding the flow. Soil had cogged one of the sponges and its flow was reduced to a trickle, so there was not enough flow or oxygen for the bacteria. I just switched out the powerhead for one that has a flow rate of 225, but the sponges will decrease that. My plants now gently sway in the current, while they did not before. If i dont see nitrites soon, i will add the HOB (or should i add it anyways?)

About the light: crap, thats what i was scared of. I bought it under the impression i was in the medium light range. The only other light fixture i have is a 20watt single t8 bulb that came with the tank. My photo-period is 10hr a day with a 4 hr siesta. How should i remedy this problem? I could get some blocks of wood and raise the light fixture. any other ideas? how high should i raise it to get a desirable amount of light? I want this to be low tech.

I dont own a test kit for GH and KH. I am a fish only convert, so i only have a test kit for PH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, and i dont won a drop checker. Does anyone know where i can get these things cheap?

Sorry about all the questions; you guys are extremely helpful, thanks!


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

That is still not going to cut it, I promise. The sponge will get clogged at least once a month and will require cleaning. A canister filter is seriously the best option.


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## mfgann (Dec 16, 2010)

In my NPT I think I had a _lot_ of ammonia produced from the soil underneath. I ran mine for about 6 weeks before I made it out of the cycle. I only used a simple sponge filter, as I didn't have an aged HOB filter to spare.

Problem is, even if the substrate was producing ammonia, I didn't trust it since I didn't know how long that process would continue, so I has some shrimp in there to be ammonia producers (it was planned as a planted shrimp tank anyway). 

My sponge filter has not clogged or even gotten dirty looking in the month and a half I've had it. I know someone who runs his NPTs with no filter at all with great success.


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## mfgann (Dec 16, 2010)

potatoes said:


> About the light: crap, thats what i was scared of. I bought it under the impression i was in the medium light range. The only other light fixture i have is a 20watt single t8 bulb that came with the tank. My photo-period is 10hr a day with a 4 hr siesta. How should i remedy this problem? I could get some blocks of wood and raise the light fixture. any other ideas? how high should i raise it to get a desirable amount of light? I want this to be low tech.


Hmm,.. you would have to ask someone with more experience than I, but maybe you could put regular T5 bulbs in a T5HO fixture? I'd be afraid to do the opposite, but the worst I can imagine a lower wattage T5 bulb doing if it is wrong is burning out too soon. Anyone tried this? Usually it is everyone working hard to get enough light. 

My understanding of T5 lighting is that you need about 1.5W/gal, so a 29G should need about 44W. Is your T5 fixture 48W TOTAL or 48W per bulb? Look at a bulb and see if the marking says "F24T5" or "F48T5" .. after the F is the wattage, and the T is the diameter, in eighths of an inch. If you have 48W total I would think it is low-medium lighting, but perhaps I am wrong?

HTH


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## potatoes (Dec 16, 2010)

I am aiming at a very low tech walstad style el natural tank. Most of the tanks i have seen like this have minimal filtration and some only have the filter for mechanical filtration and water circulation, since the plants do a good job at removing ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. I am not saying you are wrong, but a canister filter seems to be going in the opposite direction of everything i have learned about low tech tanks thus far. I purposely got a powerhead that was too strong so it would still work with its flow impeded by slightly clogged sponges. I honestly dont know if i can invest in a canister filter at the moment, so i was hoping that powerhead+sponges+lots of happy plants = filter

My lights are 48watts total, but they are HO, whihc is apparently important. I will raise it a few inches and let the floaters have a party


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Suit yourself. Good luck experimenting.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Yes, lift up the fixture. 

Power head with a sponge ought to be enough. Just keep cleaning the sponge as often as needed to keep the flow up. 

What is the source of the water you used to fill the tank? 
If it is tap water then get the annual report from the water company. that will at least tell you an approximate number for GH and KH. If it is anything higher than about 50 ppm (around 3 German degrees of hardness) then the tank is probably fine for now, but you will want to know if you need to add more minerals for the plants. 
Did you add any limestone or coral sand in the substrate? (I do not know what that soil mix contains or what it does to the GH and KH)

Some substrates remove KH from the water. I would want to know that, and if this is a substrate that does this, and to what extent. 

Get GH and KH tests. The average kits available at fish stores, both on line and in person are fine. Sometimes there is a question about accuracy, but without spending a lot of money, these are OK. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals makes GH and KH in one box, and they also package them separately. 
These two tests are usually on the 5-way or 6-way dip stick test strips, too.


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## potatoes (Dec 16, 2010)

I also know of several tanks similar to mine that go w/o filters, so i think i will be ok. thanks diana, I crushed a bit of coral i found on a beach in florida onto the bottom of the tank before adding the soil, but idk if the plants can access it until their root systems are larger. I use Baltimore City's water, and i will look up the reports. I did not know GH and KH were important; I will get a simple test when i can.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

potatoes said:


> I am aiming at a very low tech walstad style el natural tank.


Yeh, another low tech non-co2 tank. Did you put the same soil in the other tanks? I have seen others whom have algae bloom with MST substrate initially. Since the plant growth was fine he just waited it out. Perhap just waiting for the ammonia from the substrate to leach out will work for you since the plant growth is great. For testing could take water to pet store. They test for free. Compare Wall-mart to LNT for cost of test kits if you want to get one. I keep pushing LNT for they don't charge a shipping cost most of the time. Sometimes it goes up to $3.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

potatoes said:


> I did not know GH and KH were important; I will get a simple test when i can.


Yes in fact at thread found it is more important than the ph.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Has the cycle kicked in yet?

If not, temperature may be an issue without a heater on your tank. N-bacteria are extremely temperature-sensitive, as well as needing plenty of O2 and carbonates. Lower temperatures will slow their colonization if not shut it down completely. What temperature is your tank?


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

I apologize if anyone else already mentioned this and I missed it, but if you are going for a natural tank (and therefore are not adding CO2,) then surface agitation is actually a good thing, it will help keep the CO2 level in the tank at atmospheric levels, as opposed to below them as the plants use it up without surface agitation. I run only low tech tanks and I use all HOB filters AND bubble walls to keep the tank well aerated. I noticed some poor growth recently in my 10g and THEN noticed my bubble wall was not operational (oops)....a few days with it back on and the plants are already looking better. So if your only concern for using a HOB filter or not is surface agitation, then I would go ahead and put it on roud: A canister is not necessary on a 29g. At least a HOB has been working well for 2+ years on my 30g :thumbsup:

Also, as someone else mentioned, 48w T5HO on a 29g is a LOT of light, you'll probably want to raise the light well above the tank to make it low light or I think you'll just end up with a lot of algae unless you start dosing lots of ferts and injecting CO2.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Karackle said:


> A 48w T5HO on a 29g is a LOT of light, you'll probably want to raise the light well above the tank to make it low light or I think you'll just end up with a lot of algae unless you start dosing lots of ferts and injecting CO2.


Oh, that reminds me of Hyzer's tank. He has a T5HO 6400k 24w bulb over his tank. He suspended it 27 in from the substrate to keep the tank low tech.


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## potatoes (Dec 16, 2010)

Thank you so much for the replies! Sorry about my inconsistency, i have been extremely busey with school and the college process (I am figuring out what college to go to, so i have tons of paperwork) I have basically ignored the tank this entire time besides some pruning, and it has improved a lot! The water has cleared, the substrate stopped bubbling, i see no algae, and the ammonia is either at like .1 ppm. The plants are filling in and competing for the light. I think what has helped the most is the addition of floating plants. I have frogbit, giant duckweed, water lettuce, and red root floaters. they are doubling in amount every week, and i cant give them away fast enough. Unfortunately, I have an aphid problem. I may scrap all of them and then restock the floaters from an uninfected tank. the other plants in the tank are also growing fast, but not nearly as quickly. 

I will definatly raise my light. I am guessing i only havent run into problems yet because of the initial abundance of nutirents and the floaters, but i guess as the soil settles in, i will need less light.

I am very confused about the whole filter thing. I have gained most of my knowledge from the internet, sites like this, and especially Diana Walsteds "the ecology of the planted aquarium". In the book, it is claimed that the decomposition of fish food, dead plant matter, and fish waste, all of which is carbon based, will break down and release co2. 
I guess the question is: Is the decomposition releasing co2 at a rate faster then the plants can use it and keeping the co2 levels above atmospheric levels? If so, one would want to reduce surface tension and feed a lot (which Diana advocates). If not, one wants to maximize it.
I am very confused because the advice you are giving directly contradicts the book and previous information i have learned about this type of tank. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just torn.


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## potatoes (Dec 16, 2010)

Perhaps the situation is different in different tanks. 
Maybe in a low stock tank, such as a shrimp tank, there will be minimal feeding and therefore minimal decomposition and less co2, so surface tension may be adventagious because the atmospheric levels may be higher then the levels created by the natural decomposition. 
Maybe in a more heavily stocked tank with liberal feeding, there is higher rate of decomposition and the rate of co2 release is higher then the constant atmospheric levels.

what do you think?

EDIT: Here is some info regarding the level of co2 concentrations in the water when at equilibrium with the air. http://www.hallman.org/plant/huebert.html
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/66175-co2-levels-my-npts.html#post502275
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/66175-co2-levels-my-npts.html#post502275

One source says the equilibrium level is .5ppm, and the other says 2-3ppm. I am not sure which is accurate. Either way, is this enough for a low tech tank (After i reduce my light of course)


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