# 25 gallon, planted, freshwater journal (updated pictures - 6.21.08)



## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

Ok so many of you know I have been playing around with my tank so I decided to make a journal with my progress.

Thoughts? Suggestions? By the way thinks for all of your help this weekend answering so many of my questions. (Those of you who did.)

I'm going to be updating on this post, as well as my website. My webstie will include more detail, but this listing will show all of the issues/questions/help I've gotten along the way. 

Again I'm always open for feedback, advice, or suggestions!

http://www.rickonline.us/RickOnline/25_Gallon_Journal.html


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## topfrog007 (Dec 30, 2007)

Nice tank and nice site. Maybe a background would be nice? Black would really make the neons/cardinals stand out and hide some of the equipment at the same time. 

How are you liking the high tech tank route? You have more watts over your 25 than I do over my 55! =)


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

Hey thanks so much! Do you guys think the first pictures look better then the more recent ones? It looks like I did a bunch of work, but the first group of pictures look better? I hope not, planting that gloss was a TON of work. 

As far as the background goes I put a piece of black poster board behind the tank. Is there a better way to do it? I'm open to some advice.

As far as the light, I've only had it for 2 days, but so far, so good. I'm just now trying to learn more by trail and error.

I'm going to try to do a picture each Monday when I do a water change to track the growth.

What's your guess how long it will take for that gloss to fill out the bottom? 6 weeks?


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

You know those swords will get REAL big, I would take the swords out and get some fast growing background plants.
Looks good tho,
How new is the ADA AS?


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

I got the soils about six months ago. What plants do u suggest to pit in the place of the sword?


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## topfrog007 (Dec 30, 2007)

rick4him said:


> As far as the background goes I put a piece of black poster board behind the tank. Is there a better way to do it? I'm open to some advice.


I just recently changed the background in my 55. I looked on the forums and decided to go with black paint. I cleaned the back of the glass with aquarium safe glass cleaner, then I applied 4 light coats with a brush of satin black Rustoleum oil-based ($3.70 home depot). In between coats I used a hair dryer to make it dry faster. Overall it took between 1-2 hours until completion. Get the smallest can available, it goes along way!

A few days later I took off my spray bar and intake and sprayed two coats of Krylon fusion (Wal-mart $4.00) flat black on them. 

Your tank definitely looks better in the most recent pictures =)


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

Hey thanks!


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2008)

Ok - well I am finally starting t get the hang of this board. I did a dumb thing and thought I needed to put each question I had under that specific "section" of the forum.I am now going to keep everything under this one topic so people can see all my questions in one place. Sorry for making so many posts - I just didn't know how it worked, and thought I was doing the best thing, but really I just made it more confusing. So from now on - this is going to be my only post. (If I'm making a mistake please let me know.)

Ok - now on to my question - you can look at my personal website to see what I'm doing, and what's been going on, and the specs of my tank.

I just installed a DIY reactor for my pressured co2. I put a spray bar on the left side of the tank, blowing in a downward/across motion. I notice that my pants are swaying in the "flow" of the water. Is this ok for the plants? None of them look to be blowing over or anything.

Also in regards to the reactor it's been on for 10 minutes or so. I'm seeing a bunch of micro bubbles coming out. The point of a reactor was for the co2 to dissolve in the water before it gets to the tank, right? Is this normal with a new reactor? Do you think it will stop by the morning?


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2008)

One other question - 
Being that my spray bar is point down/across there really isn't any surface movement - is this going to effect my fish?

Is oxygen still going to be able to get in the tank at night with no surface movement?


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## rolloffhill (Jan 18, 2008)

rick4him said:


> Ok - well I am finally starting t get the hang of this board. I did a dumb thing and thought I needed to put each question I had under that specific "section" of the forum.I am now going to keep everything under this one topic so people can see all my questions in one place. Sorry for making so many posts - I just didn't know how it worked, and thought I was doing the best thing, but really I just made it more confusing. So from now on - this is going to be my only post. (If I'm making a mistake please let me know.)
> 
> Ok - now on to my question - you can look at my personal website to see what I'm doing, and what's been going on, and the specs of my tank.
> 
> ...


The micro bubbles you see now aren't all co2, they are from rushing alot of water into the reactor that was previously dry. They should clear up soon.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

You most likely will need a little surface movement.
Keep a close eye on fish if you can.
Or you can add a airstone to go on when your lights go out.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

You should start with a lower bubble count now if you didn't already, the reactor will dissolve more co2 than with a disk IMO.

You have to check for gas pockets at the top of the reactor this will hinder flow and absorption.

If you get pockets you will have to do one of three things 
1 lower your bps
2 if you need the bps get a stronger pump, canister 
3 bleed the pocket out with the bleeder valve once and a while.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2008)

Ok so this morning it is MUCH better. It doesn't look like a snow storm in the tank any more. 

There are a few "big" bubbles coming from the bottom of the substrate...hmmmm?

Also the fish seem to be doing fine, but there seems to be a "film" on top of the water. Is this ok? The surface is very still.

Should I turn the bar up a little bit so the surface is moving, or do I want it to be non-moving? Also what about the current on the plants, is this ok? Is it going to cause them to grow in weird since they are having to fight a current?


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2008)

One other thing -
Do the regular heaters work just as well as in inline heater? My water is still jumping about 5 degrees from morning to night. What is the ideal temp for my tank? Any good heaters to suggest or are they all the same?


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

Week number 3 - 
The Glosso is actually growing runners, and they are staying down. 

How's things looking guys?


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## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

Looks like it's on its way to filling out. 

I like the floor lamps placement as well...lol :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

Hey thanks! Yah that floor lamp will get ya! lol


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

Well it's been a journey the last few weeks. I have asked alot of questions, and for those of you just now joining up I've had lots of issues, but it looks like things are on the right track. I'm going to start ONLY posting on this post to keep things in order. (from the suggestions of many  

If you want to get caught up on what the latest has been you can read this link :
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/61111-whats-wrong-my-fish.html

I hope no one minds - but I think that problem is getting a handle on its self - and for everyone's sake I'll only update things on this post from here on out. (including updates to my problem I've been having.)

Ok - now I have a question - I looking for a good timer for my system - have any of you used either one of these, and if so do you suggest them?

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsU...78967/cl0/coralifeaqualightdigitalpowercenterhttp://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp18362/si1378967/cl0/coralifeaqualightdigitalpowercenter

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp18362/si1383024/cl0/coralifeaqualightpowercenter


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

Also a question on testing water - just so I"m sure - when you do a big water change and use prime- you will still see ammonia showing up on your test right? From what I understand prime "bonds" with the ammonia and show while it isn't toxic it will still show up on your test for the next 24 hours or so, right?

Also my nitrate, and nitrite are both at 0 as of my most recent test. My ammonia is showing . 25, but I'm assuming it's because I did that 50% water change this morning, and the prime has made it untoxic, but it's still showing up.

Is this a correct assumption?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm getting the first one, the digital, with my next order- that's a great price, since they're $45 at PetsMart


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## rolloffhill (Jan 18, 2008)

I have and many others have had problems with the second one. I replaced it once but won't next time. One of the timers went bad and rendered most of the powerstrip useless....

I haven't heard bad things about the digital one, but also have no experience with one.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I'm getting the first one, the digital, with my next order- that's a great price, since they're $45 at PetsMart


Cheaper then that! You know you can print out the add from big al's and take it to petsmart and they will match, no questions asked.

You can get the digital one in the 30's....


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

rolloffhill said:


> I have and many others have had problems with the second one. I replaced it once but won't next time. One of the timers went bad and rendered most of the powerstrip useless....
> 
> I haven't heard bad things about the digital one, but also have no experience with one.


I had the digital one, but the thing that I didn't like was you couldn't really "time" to the outlets. They sort of trick you with the packing - you can only have 2 of the "timed" slots on at a time. When one is off, the other is on, and vis versa. So you could use it to time your lights, co2, and airstone, unless you wanted them to come on at the exact moment the other went off. (ie: you couldn't have the co2 come on an hour before the lights came on, or go off an hour before the light's went off - it's either one or the other.)

Also I got a little water on the digital one and it ruined it. (I had the digital one for about a week before it broke.) I assumed that since it was to be used around tanks, it could handle a little water getting on it by mistake, but it just completely stopped working. 

Are there any others you guys suggest other then just the little light timers they sell? ( i liked it because it was all on one strip - you didn't have to have all those little timers set up.)


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## rolloffhill (Jan 18, 2008)

rick4him said:


> I had the digital one, but the thing that I didn't like was you couldn't really "time" to the outlets. They sort of trick you with the packing - you can only have 2 of the "timed" slots on at a time. When one is off, the other is on, and vis versa. So you could use it to time your lights, co2, and airstone, unless you wanted them to come on at the exact moment the other went off. (ie: you couldn't have the co2 come on an hour before the lights came on, or go off an hour before the light's went off - it's either one or the other.)
> 
> Also I got a little water on the digital one and it ruined it. (I had the digital one for about a week before it broke.) I assumed that since it was to be used around tanks, it could handle a little water getting on it by mistake, but it just completely stopped working.
> 
> Are there any others you guys suggest other then just the little light timers they sell? ( i liked it because it was all on one strip - you didn't have to have all those little timers set up.)


The other timer link you posted does the same, the yellow ones are on one timer, and the blue/black are on the other timer. So when blue is on black is off and vice versa. It also only leaves you one constant hot plug.

That is why it would be better IMO to get multiple timers to automate your tank.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

rolloffhill said:


> The other timer link you posted does the same, the yellow ones are on one timer, and the blue/black are on the other timer. So when blue is on black is off and vice versa. It also only leaves you one constant hot plug.
> 
> That is why it would be better IMO to get multiple timers to automate your tank.


I agree with u. Unless they make a power strip that let's u time each outlet. Has anyone ever seen anything like this? 

Do u just plug each timer into a surge protector?

I'm assuming the digital timers work better then those manual ones. Any suggestions ? Ill swing by target or walmart tonight and pick a few up.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Rick, do you have ammo in your tap?


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2008)

mott said:


> Rick, do you have ammo in your tap?


yes a little.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

From what I understand, the NH4 will still show, however, when the tank is cycled, the NH4 should be taken out everntually.

In addition, I see you are using AS. Is it ASI or ASII? From what I have gathered, ASI will go through some serious ammonia outbreaks in the beginning. (This may also be a cuase of some of your serious issues lately)

As far as Nitrates, are you dosing?


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2008)

Wow! - So I was gone for a while tonight, and when I got home I came home to this! (This is the CLEAREST my water has EVER been. ) Man those UV things are NO joke!

Hey what do you guys think about that piece of wood on the right side of the tank, and that java fern. Do you think I should pull that wood out? Maybe put the Java fern on the far left under the arch part of that other drift wood?

I was thinking of just pulling that right piece of wood out, and letting the glosso fill in on the right side as well. What do you guys think would give it the better look?


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

I have a 7 day/7 event digital outdoor timer manufactured by "Intermatic",and it was under $20.00 at Home Depot.You can set it to turn on at different times every day if you want to,but I don't.It is impervious to water,and I highly recommend it.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2008)

lescarpentier said:


> I have a 7 day/7 event digital outdoor timer manufactured by "Intermatic",and it was under $20.00 at Home Depot.You can set it to turn on at different times every day if you want to,but I don't.It is impervious to water,and I highly recommend it.


I think the issue with these sorts of timers is its either an off or on problem. You can't "time" each of the inputs on the power strip. That causes an issue if you want to turn on and off the co2, airstone, lights, at different times.

I think i"m going to go with what was mentioned above - using those manual timers for each device, plugged into a surge protector. (I also picked up these cool things you plug into the power strip and then plug the timer into , so your big timer doesn't block other inputs on the surge protector because of the size of the timer.)


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2008)

gmccreedy said:


> From what I understand, the NH4 will still show, however, when the tank is cycled, the NH4 should be taken out everntually.
> 
> In addition, I see you are using AS. Is it ASI or ASII? From what I have gathered, ASI will go through some serious ammonia outbreaks in the beginning. (This may also be a cuase of some of your serious issues lately)
> 
> As far as Nitrates, are you dosing?


Hey question for you - yesterday when you said my kh/ph had my co2 off the charts - are you sure? I thought that using the kh/ph wasn't accurate because of the different things in the water (wood, substrate, etc) and that was why I needed to use a drop checker.

Could that be the reason it was off the charts? Just trying to make sure I"m following along correctly.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2008)

Well today my water is still looking PERFECT.
I tested my water and it is showing my ammonia at .50
my nitrate at 0
and my nitrite at 0

I'm not sure why the ammonia is not at 0. I did the water change about 2 pm yesterday, and I used prime. Do you think it is still showing up, but because I'm using prime it isn't toxic? I would have thought the ammonia would have read 0 by now. 

Should I do anything? Or just keep an eye on everything and check again tonight?


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## kaifyre (Jul 16, 2007)

It's probably nontoxic by now, 'cause you did say that you had ammo out of the tap, and you did a water change not too long ago. I'd leave it and check again tonight. 
As to your question about the wood/java fern placement, I like it where it is, and I think it should stay. That, and the fact that you just had problems from moving things around too much . . . I'd leave it ; ))

--Kai


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2008)

Yah! So I checked my ammonia tonight, and I'm at 0! Good. 

I think I'll do a water change, and take the UV off tomorrow and see if everything holds up.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

rick4him said:


> Yah! So I checked my ammonia tonight, and I'm at 0! Good.
> 
> I think I'll do a water change, and take the UV off tomorrow and see if everything holds up.


Why take the UV out? Leave the tank alone for a while. 

You need to be patient. You keep fiddling around, moving this, moving that. Just slow down. Let things settle down in there. Enjoy the hobby. 

Thats my advice, but do as you will.

PS: NH4 at 0 means nothing without proper biologic bacteria build up. Its probably approaching 0 since you have almost no bioload left since the die off.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

x2 on leave the UV alone.

With ammonia in your tap water plus the huge lighting wattage going in your tank, you're going to need a way to soak up that ammonia really quickly if you want to avoid green water. 

The UV is your bandaid for now. You haven't addressed the source of the green water, which IMO is probably the ammonia in the tap water plus the lighting. You'll need to make some changes in the long run but for now leave everything alone for a bit!!!! LOL


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2008)

Yah - I guess I would just like to see if what ever was going on is fixed.

I'm assuming the green water came from moving things around, and possibly hitting one of those pockets we talked about.

Also from what I've read those uv's can hurt the good bact. from forming correctly in the tank. I've also heard that people have said that when the green water cleared up it didn't come back. Also from what I understand the UV takes out the ferts in the tank. I'm not sure, I just I just didn't know how long I should leave this big thing in the tank.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The UV shouldn't have much impact on the bacteria in the tank as most of them are down in the substrate and in the filter, where the rays should not reach them. The amount of N-bacteria in the actual water column is only a tiny percentage of the total N-bacteria in the tank. Many people always run a UV in their tanks; some people swear by them. 

I've never heard of UV having any impact on ferts?

Your GW will only not come back if and when your tank is in balance. It's only been a few days- just leave it be for now. It's not hurting anything, and for now like I said it's a bandaid for your GW issue (that I suspect will come back as soon as you remove it, if I'm right and the source is your lighting + ammonia in the tapwater).


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2008)

So now that the water is really clear I can see some things.

If I look closely I can see very, very, very, very small "gunk" in the water. I watch it go by the intake of the filter, and it doesn't get sucked in. I put my hands on the intake and it doesn't feel like anything is being "sucked" in. If I take off that little green "cage" that goes around the intake, there is a strong suction on that little hole that is there. 

Why is there no suction around that green filter? Why isn't it sucking in the small particles that are floating in the water?

There are no kinks what so ever in the hose.

Hmmm. I wonder if this is a part of the cause of my recent issues? The filter not "sucking" enough junk in.

Thoughts?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

What's the water pressure like coming out of the flow bar?

You're running an Eheim on this tank, right, plus an inline heater, plus your CO2 reactor?


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> What's the water pressure like coming out of the flow bar?
> 
> You're running an Eheim on this tank, right, plus an inline heater, plus your CO2 reactor?


No, not an inline heater. Just the reactor. I do have an Eheim 2215.

I just went ahead and took a look inside the filter like you suggested. The purgin was brown on the bottom. But that was it. Just the very bottom layer. 

I went ahead and put a new bag in just to be safe. I rinsed out the media (using tank water) but it just doesn't look like things are flowing into that little cage. But like I said the suction is strong if I take that grate off and put my finger on the suction hole. 

Maybe that's how it's supposed to be...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you've got fine flow coming out the other end, then you should be fine.

Again, just leave things alone for a while and let the tank settle down.:thumbsup:


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

Man I feel like I haven't posted in forever! (ha,ha. have you noticed I"ve slowed down a bit on the postings...)

Things are going well - I just did my weekly 50% water change. The UV is out now, so I'll see how it all holds together.

I wanted to ask what fish food you guys think is the best. I'm just using tetra min flakes. Are these decent? Are there different "levels" of fish food?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I've used Tetra flakes for 20+ years as my staple food, with good results. I also supplement with plenty of frozen and freezedried foods, and use sinking pellets for my catfish and shrimp. I occasionally will treat with nori or fresh veggies, and live brine shrimp. I try to make sure that I provide both good proteins for the more carnivorous fish, as well as veggies for the vegetarians.

Bloodworms and Cyclop-eeze are great foods for bringing out reds and oranges in fish coloration.

Omega One has a very good brandname reputation, and there's a newer one on the market I'm drawing a blank on ATM that's supposed to be the best so far...


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

really? I would be interested to know what company is the "best so far" and what makes them the best.

Also as far as "treats" fish like fresh vegs?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Fish like plecos and otos love fresh green veggies and zucchini.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Fish like plecos and otos love fresh green veggies and zucchini.


what is a pleaco? I thought that was a fish.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Pleco = plecostomus = most armored catfish species in the Loricariidea family.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Pleco = plecostomus = most armored catfish species in the Loricariidea family.


right that's what I thought.

You said fish like pleco's? What did you mean by that? Are you saying fish like to eat pleco's????


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## rolloffhill (Jan 18, 2008)

Read it again with out the "fish like" then add the "fish like" when it makes sense....:thumbsup:


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Fish like plecos and otos love fresh green veggies and zucchini.


oh... ha,ha. It looked like you were saying fish LIKE plecos....and otos LOVE fresh green veggies....

Like fish like to eat plecos, and otos love to eat fresh green veggies.

HAHAHAH..my bad..

So do tetras not like veggies?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

ROFL Ok now I got what you meant- I should have said "fish such as..."

"Such as" referring to fish that primarily eat vegetable matter as the largest portion of their diet.

Tetras may take a nibble here and there, but probably would not eat too much. Your otos and amano shrimp should like green veggies, though. You don't have many of either and both are very small in size so won't eat that much- keep that in mind if you decide to feed fresh foods, and you'll need to remove the uneaten portion as soon as it goes limp so it doesn't decay and affect the water quality.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2008)

I have noticed that my new leaves on my aunbia plants are growing in a lime green color, instead of the deep forest green color on my older leaves.

Does this mean anything?

The lime color actually looks brighter, and better in my opinion.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

In many plants newer leaves are a different color than older; chances are good that they will deepen in color as they age.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

Ok here are my water stats today 
nitrate - 10 
nitrite - .25
phosphate 2.0
ammonia - 0
ph - 6.6
kh - 70
gh - 140

I"m not sure why I have a little nitrite - i believe it was 0 yesterday. The fish look to be fine. I really would like to avoid a water change since I've been doing so many of them, and I know they stress fish out. Should I have things like they are for now? I could also add some prime since it can treat nitrites. I'm not sure why or how I have any nitrites.

Also on another note - I have been soaking my used bag of purgin in the 50/50 bleach/water solution - what's the next step? It says to put it in some prime, and then if it is going back into fresh water to use some boaster. I have some Gh booster - is that what they are talking about?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Frequent PWC do *not* stress fish out; they're one of the best things you can do for fish. The only time they can be hard on fish is when the tank water the fish are used to has become significantly diferent from the new water coming in. Most breeders do multiple 100% water changes a DAY when growing out fry; gives them the best water quality possible.

Your nitrite level is a little concerning- when was the last PWC? Have you changed out any filter media besides your Purigen, or made any dosing changes?


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

I've just kept up with my ei dosing. Last week I didn't really give much dosing since I was doing water changes every day and sometimes 2 a day.

I haven't swamped out any of my media.

Do you think I should do a 25%? 

Also I've read that water changes do stress out fish, but that's neither here nor there.

WHat do you think I should do today? Watch the levels and if they are still at .25 tomorrow do a pwc, or do one tonight?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Why don't you experiement; leave it alone today (at 0.25 your fish shouldn't really be in danger ATM) and see if you still have a reading tomorrow, or if the N-bacteria have converted it to nitrAte?

You're being very careful not to overfeed the fish, right?


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

Umm, I think so . I just put a small pinch on the top. and it looks like most of the fish eat it before it goes to the bottom.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Uneaten food is a potential source of ammonia and nitrItes, so just one more possibility to rule out. With the snails you have in this tank, uneaten food shouldn't be able to stick around too long; however, if you are overfeeding, you're sure to get a population explosion of snails.

Like I said- nothing is critical right now, just things to keep an eye on.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

Well this just goes to show you how crazy this high tech tank stuff can be. I just checked the stats again, and not the nitrites are at 0!. ha,ha. with in 2 hours? Really? Ha,ha. wow.... how could that be?

what about the purgin question?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Did you check your nitrAtes? If they're higher, then that means that your nitrogen cycle is working as it should be. 

I've not used Purigen to date, so I can't answer that one. I'd go to www.SeaChem.com and see what they say- I know they have instructions...


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

no i didn't check that - that's just odd that it was there one minute, and the next minute it isn't.. odd.


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## rolloffhill (Jan 18, 2008)

rick4him said:


> Well this just goes to show you how crazy this high tech tank stuff can be. I just checked the stats again, and not the nitrites are at 0!. ha,ha. with in 2 hours? Really? Ha,ha. wow.... how could that be?
> 
> what about the purgin question?


Maybe you're not consistent with your testing??

After you soak the *purigen *in bleach water you need to soak it in prime to get the chlorine out.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

rolloffhill said:


> Maybe you're not consistent with your testing??
> 
> After you soak the *purigen *in bleach water you need to soak it in prime to get the chlorine out.


Not consistent with my testing? what do you mean?

Also I know you are supposed to soak it in prime, but your also supposed to use a buffer also if it is going back into a freshwater tank. What is a buffer? Is that something else you have to buy? Can I use anything that I may have already?


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2008)

wow - so I went back and tested my nitrate levels and they are at 0. what in the world?


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

No buffer needed. Those are chemicals that mess with ph and are generally a bad idea. 

For the testing, it is possible to make mistakes while testing. I think that's what rolloffhill was suggesting as a reason for variance in testing. Also, these hobby grade tests aren't extremely accurate, and can even go bad over time.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2008)

mpodolan said:


> No buffer needed. Those are chemicals that mess with ph and are generally a bad idea.
> 
> For the testing, it is possible to make mistakes while testing. I think that's what rolloffhill was suggesting as a reason for variance in testing. Also, these hobby grade tests aren't extremely accurate, and can even go bad over time.


No buffer needed? everyone says your supposed to soak the purgein in a mix of prime and buffer before you put it back in the filter. you don't agree?


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

I just soak it in prime after the bleach to make it safe for use. Works fine


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## rolloffhill (Jan 18, 2008)

mpodolan said:


> No buffer needed. Those are chemicals that mess with ph and are generally a bad idea.
> 
> For the testing, *it is possible to make mistakes while testing*. I think that's what rolloffhill was suggesting as a reason for variance in testing. Also, these hobby grade tests aren't extremely accurate, and can even go bad over time.


Yes..:thumbsup: 



mpodolan said:


> I just soak it in prime after the bleach to make it safe for use. Works fine


Same here..:thumbsup:


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2008)

What does it mean when a school of fish go all the way to the right side of the tank - like up to the glass, and just hang out there? It's as if they are wanting to go outside of the glass wall. They just school to the right and stay there for a while. Rest/swim, and then do it again..


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## rolloffhill (Jan 18, 2008)

Are you serious??


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2008)

rolloffhill said:


> Are you serious??


am I serious?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The plants are always greener on the other side of the glass.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2008)

So it's normal? I thought I read some where that when the fish are going up against the edge of the glass like that, it's a bad sign. That they should be swimming around the tank normally, and if they aren't there is an issue.

Is this not the case? Are the fish acting normally?


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## rolloffhill (Jan 18, 2008)

rick4him said:


> am I serious?



That's what I asked...:eek5:


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2008)

No I just took the time to log on, and write that message because I was board.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

rick4him said:


> So it's normal? I thought I read some where that when the fish are going up against the edge of the glass like that, it's a bad sign. That they should be swimming around the tank normally, and if they aren't there is an issue.
> 
> Is this not the case? Are the fish acting normally?


Fish often "pace" and it's only a problem if it becomes an obsession. If they swim in other areas of the tank and also rest, I wouldn't worry about it. It's usually larger fish like puffers and catfish that really develop problems with "pacing," and that's often a sign of boredom.

Your tetras are likely seeing their own reflections and wanting to go swim with the other fish. You don't have large enough schools of either your red phantoms or lone cardinal ATM- but again, no changes right now.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

You're thinking of flashing. Flashing is when fish frantically scrape against rocks, substrate, and sometimes the glass. It's a sign of parasites. I don't think this is what you are describing.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2008)

WILL IT EVER END! 

So all week things have been going great! My water stats have been great, my fish have been great, the plants have been great. Well I think some how I must have bumped the needle on my co2 tank last night. When I came home today every fish in the tank was floating at the top of the tank. actually including shrimp. I looked at my drop checker and it was beyond yellow - pretty much clear. I looked at the bubble counter - and it was through the roof. Pretty much SPRAYING co2 into the tank.

I was in shock. I took out all the fish/shrimp/etc. I did a water change, I CAN'T believe it. I don't know how the needle got moved on my co2. I'm beyond upset, I can't believe it.......


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

:eek5: I'm so sorry Rick- you've worked extremely hard trying to get everything just right, this has to be incredibly frustrating!

You might want to keep an eye on things for a few days before adding fish again, just to make sure that the equipment is working properly?

Also, I'd recommend you QT fish for at least 2 weeks this time before adding them- to be on the safe side. It's "ich season"


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2008)

Lauraleellbp - 
Thanks for the advice - you have no idea how upset I was last night. I couldn't believe what happend. I think the plants got over dosed on co2 as well. 

The "good" thing (if I can even say that) is that I can start with a fresh slate, and know what I have in my tank. I just bought 10 Cardanel tetras from petsmart. (they actually gave me store credit on some of the fish) So I'll see how they do. I have nothing else in the tank at all.

I think I will need some more algea workers though. (I lost all my amanio shrimp and O-cats) 

What are your suggestions for that? Should I buy 6 o-cats? Just looking for some advice on that, I don't want my tank getting dirty with stuff those o-cats and shrimp kept under control.

I am so upset that I lost everything. I am going to see how these fish do, hopefully they do well - all the other water stats look good. I maybe should buy a new needle valve. What happened is the needle got bumped when I was cleaning under there and it turned the co2 all the way up.  I just need to make sure I clamp down the lock part of the co2 needle valve. (I just also have a hard time with it because when I get the valve set, then I turn the little locking device it ends up turning the needle valve and messes up everything I set!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I guess you already have fish... better keep a close eye on that CO2 though, just in case something's wrong?

Oto cats and/or amano shrimp should all be fine. In a 25gal with only cardinal tetras you have room for plenty otos and amanos both.

The trick with all of the fish and shrimp you are adding is very very slow and patient acclimitization- go with drip, if you can. Run a search on acclimitizing- there have been a number of recent threads with good instructions in the Fish forum...

Also- I'm guessing the CO2 probably killed all your snails as well, and some MTS may be decomposing down in the substrate; better keep a close eye on your water parameters just in case they cause an ammonia/nitrIte spike!


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Rick, you have a lock on the needle valve?

Never seen that before.

You should keep an eye on the psi also you don't want to end up with an EOT dump.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2008)

mott said:


> Rick, you have a lock on the needle valve?
> 
> Never seen that before.
> 
> You should keep an eye on the psi also you don't want to end up with an EOT dump.


Well it's not really a "lock" - it just has 2 things you can turn you know. One to turn adjust the flow of your co2 coming out, and then a little circle thing you turn that keeps you from turning the valve. You know what I mean?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Rick- you've disappeared! lol

How's the tank coming along? Is no news good news in this case?


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Rick- you've disappeared! lol
> 
> How's the tank coming along? Is no news good news in this case?


EVERYTHING IS GOING GREAT! I was going to post a new picture soon.

I've tried to tone down on the posts...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL that was quick!

Good to hear- and I look forward to updated pics. :thumbsup: 

LOL @ "tone down on posts" keep posting- just keeping the # of threads manageable would be nice... :flick:


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## jackstraw (Mar 1, 2008)

rick I just wanted to say I really like your site and your tank. That glosso looks really good there in the front and I'm thinking about doing my foreground in glosso, babytears, and dwarf hairgrass directly behind. I also like your Rotala Indica on the left(if that's what it is), I have one and after three months I finally found out what it is!

Sorry to hear about your setback. Good luck and I look forward to seeing an update.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

I do have one "issue" and I have haven't posted on it because I've been using the search feature! 

But I'm getting this film at the top of my tank. I turned the spray bar up to it, and it doesn't go away. I used paper towels and got it all "up", but in about an hour the film came back...

What in the world is this!!!


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## jackstraw (Mar 1, 2008)

Does it sort of look oily? I'm new to the hobby but I've noticed that happens to me when I put in my liquid ferts (Flourish/Iron/Excel).


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Fats and oils common to new tanks. I suspect it will eventually go away over time if you keep cleaning it off, or you could get a surface skimmer (any excuse for another piece of equipment for ya? LOL) I'd personally keep doing the paper towel thing.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

Here are some of the new pictures.

Sorry I can't get the lighting right, but things are growing in nicely..

What do ya think?


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## jackstraw (Mar 1, 2008)

Man, that glosso looks awesome. I'm jealous. I have the same lights you have but with a DIY CO2 so I'm not sure I could grow it like that. Do you run both 65W bulbs or only one? How long do you leave your lights on?


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

jackstraw said:


> Man, that glosso looks awesome. I'm jealous. I have the same lights you have but with a DIY CO2 so I'm not sure I could grow it like that. Do you run both 65W bulbs or only one? How long do you leave your lights on?


I use both of my bulbs, and I leave them on for 8 hours a day. Many people said not to use both bulbs, and as you can see I had a green water outbreak, and I'm not sure if that was because of my lights or because I moved things around... 

Either way things are going great now. That gloss. is actually growing under the rock on the back left, and starting to grow into the back of the tank. If you look at my website it is crazy how I started with just a little bit, and now it is so thick. I just looked at the two pictures - it's crazy!

Thanks..I would suggest using pressured co2..To be honest I think that is going to be the only way you will be able to grow it the way you want it..


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Rick- that's really growing in nicely!

Now that you seem to have the parameters and algae finally in check (woohoo!!!), here's my 'scaping 2cents- I think you'd have more of a sense of depth if you pullled the red plants in front and kept them trimmed a little lower. Have the lighter green plants (especially the bacopa) in the back.

Have one plant be your focal point, and position it about 1/3 way across one or the other side of the tank; make the look a little more asymmetrical. If the hardscape is still in there (?) trim the plants around it so that it shows through, and again, a less symmetrical arrangement is better. Balance but not symmetry.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

Thanks for the advice. Do I need all my red plants up front? Or just those ones in the center? How far up front should I move it?

Also I do have the one piece of wood on the left. By the fern. 

What plant do u think I ahkuks make a focal point? One of the anubis maybe?

Can I just plant things into the gloss? Just push the stem plants stright thrown the gloss?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Pick one or two of your favorite plants and put them in front. The Ludwigia, for example, would probably look nice pulled forward and kept trimmed down? You'll end up wanting the bacopa in back once it starts filling in anyways... bacopa gets tall. 

I see the driftwood now- has the java fern on it. If you pulled that a little up and to the center a little more you could make that your focal point; the java fern looks like it's doing great?

You should be able to plant through glosso if you're using tweezers. May have to pull a little hole apart in it first with the tweezers before inserting the stem though... and any glosso that ends up shaded will likely fade away.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

Is this the kind of thing you were thinking of?

I moved some things up front.

As far as the driftwood you think I'm not sure how to move it up , because I have it resting on the back and left side of the glass to keep it "up". I have the fern resting between the wood and the glass to keep it in place. So what do you think about that? Should I move some more plants up front, do you like what I put up front?



on a side note - that fern is growing like nuts. There are hundreds of little baby plants on the back of all the leaves.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Rick, Looking real good! just watch the co2 so you don't have another mishap

Start trimming your stem plants and keep them short they will grow nice and bushy.

Oh and why is that intake in the front?? Put that thing in the back will ya!!!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Not quite- too symmetrical, and too far forward.

First decide which you'd like to be your focal point- the driftwood or the Ludwigia. (You could maybe put a rock underneath the driftwood to prop it up?) 

You want just one focal point, and you want it offcenter about 1/3 across on one side of the tank. 

If you'd rather leave the driftwood where it is and feature the Ludwigia, then you want it clumped a little more together so it looks like one plant (but still has enough room for light to get through to all the leaves) and you want it a little further back; use it as a middleground between the glosso and the background (again, 1/3 of the way across the tank)


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

mott said:


> Rick, Looking real good! just watch the co2 so you don't have another mishap
> 
> Start trimming your stem plants and keep them short they will grow nice and bushy.
> 
> Oh and why is that intake in the front?? Put that thing in the back will ya!!!


HAHAHA will do. Someone had told me to not put it in the back, but put it in side to get better flow....I'll put it in the back..

What do you think I should do with that wood?


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

Ok - let me make some changes and I'll repost pictures -
So wood on the left side, and the lud. on the right side?

if the wood is the focal point do I sill leave it on the side? or bring it in the middle?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Use one OR the other as your focal point. Put whichever you choose just off center- about 1/3 across the width of the tank, in the midground; sort of behind most of the glosso and sort of in front of most of the background plants.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

Ok so If I put the wood in the middle, where do I put the lud.? 

Can it go on the left and right of the wood in the middle?
Also I'm not sure what I will do with that java fern if I move the wood since the wood is holding the fern up...any ideas about that?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Tie the fern to the wood- I thought it was already, lol

Yes you could try the ludwigia on either side; you'll really need to keep it trimmed though.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

Ok is this better?

YOu can't really see the lud. I put on the left side, but I think it will look nice when it starts growing up so you can see it. I also put some on the right side.

How does this look?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Yes I like the wood placement much better- now the tank has a clearly defined focal point, and the layout is not as symmetrical, so is more interesting IMO :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

Ok cool - So does everything else look fine? Just let things grow up and in more?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think it looks nice.

I personally prefer plants of the same species all grouped together in one "large plant," to me that looks cleaner and makes the plants have more impact- I tend to be a bit of a minimalist, however, so take that into consideration lol


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

Sounds good - I'll let everything else grow out. I looked at my website tonight, and it's amazing how all that gloss. came from the stems I planted when I started with the gloss. Wow!

On a side note, does that film I was talking about do any harm. Like I said I put paper towels on it, but it came right back an hour later. Does it harm anything?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Not really. If it got out of hand and covered the whole tank it would cut down on gas exchange, but otherwise it's harmless.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

The film in my tank got so bad I got a surface skimmer...I think the film is due to 
dosing, all the extra nutrients and what not build up on the surface.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

I did a little more trimming, and move a few more things around. 

I took a bunch of those weeds I had in the back. (I mainly had those in there while the gloss was growing in to help with the alga) - how do you think things look now?


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Rick , It's really coming together now

When that L.aromatica gets a little bigger cut it in half and replant the top.
Do this a few times until you have a nice bush, after that just keep trimming it short and it should look real good.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

Hey thanks. It look sort of sad right now because I trimmed everything down....I'm sure when it starts to grow up it will look nice..


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

Rick,
I have followed this thread,sometimes with apprehension,but I want to take a moment now to congratulate you on a job well done.Through all of your trials and tribulations you forged on,never doubting that you would succeed,knowing that the end would justify the means.

Now you can proudly look at your tank and say Veni Vidi Vici. roud:

I will continue to watch...... :icon_wink


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think that looks very nice Rick!

It will look great once the background plants grow up to cover most of the back wall. I think the new arrangement looks much more natural.

You definitely should be proud of your persistence and research- your hard work is definitely paying off! :biggrin:


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2008)

Thank you! It's good to finally hear some positive feedback 

I just wanted everyone to know that I did a complete overhaul of my personal website, including my tank journal. Please take a look at let me know what you think of the new site!
Thanks! - I'll be updating with new pictures within the week.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2008)

*New Pictures*

Hi everyone - i just wanted to check in - it looks like things are growing in nicely. What do you think?
I would love some advice on how/when to trim plants to get different effects in the way they grow back. Do you see anything off hand I should be doing differently?

How about that gloss., huh? it's going nuts..

By the way check out my website - I got the progress down -
thanks---


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

Don't really have any advice for you,but I want to comment on how nice your tank is looking,and how far that you have progressed from your beginning.

Keep on trucking!


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Rick, like I said in post 116..
Trim the L.aromatica in half then replant the tops until you get the size bush you want then just keep them short.
Pretty much same with most stem plants...

If it were my tank I would move that bacopa? in the middle to right in front of the inlet to create a valley so to speak.
Youl need to trim that glosso soon too.
Keep up the good work!


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2008)

mott said:


> Rick, like I said in post 116..
> Trim the L.aromatica in half then replant the tops until you get the size bush you want then just keep them short.
> Pretty much same with most stem plants...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback - 
Questions - 
What is the L. aromatica that you are talking about? I thought I did trim it?

Also what is "bacopa" - and where should I move it? Also your saying moving it to the front?

Also I thought you wanted things to grow tall to cover the back wall, no?

Also how do you trim glosso? It's so crazy down there, I"m not sure how to do that....


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

Limnophila aromatica. Isn't that what's in the back left?

He was referring to the stem plant in the very middle as bacopa. He meant put it in the back right to cover the intake of the filter. This would give you an "empty" spot in the middle back, which would look like a "valley". You can put them wherever you want. If you want the whole back covered, go for it. If not, you have options


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Mpodolan nailed it...
With the Glosso I think you can just mow it like a lawn but I never tried it so what do I know.
Rick, if you keep the stems short you can shape them into a nice bush, this is what most aquascapers try to achieve.
When I say short I don't mean too short I mean like half the tank height until you achieve the look your going for... at least thats what I do


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2008)

mott said:


> Mpodolan nailed it...
> 
> Rick, if you keep the stems short you can shape them into a nice bush, this is what most aquascapers try to achieve.
> When I say short I don't mean too short I mean like half the tank height until you achieve the look your going for... at least thats what I do


Half the height of the tank? Or half the height of what they are now?

Also do you see any I need to trim right now? How about the ones on the right by the intake?


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

mott said:


> When I say short I don't mean too short I mean like half the tank height until you achieve the look your going for... at least thats what I do


......


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2008)

LOL sorry. What about the ones at the back right?

Also I don't see any that are really 1/2 yet...


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Half the height of the tank.
The wisteriea looks good on the right just watch that stuff it grows like crazy.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2008)

well things are going REALLY well. My gloss is so thick I don't know what to do with it. I cut it but it is REALLY REALLY thick, and growing over and over and over each other to where it's piling up high now..

also something is going on with my co2. I can tell my plants aren't growing as fast. Also when I look at the bubble counter the bubbles still aren't consistant like they used to be (even though I'm getting lots of pearling each no - and NO ALEGA! ) YELP THAT'S RIGHT, NONE - NOT EVEN ON THE GLASS. I used to have to scrap the glass a few times a week, but it went away.

I"m not sure what's wrong with my co2. Leak in my tubing going to my reactor maybe? Needle valve not working correctly? How do I test to figure out what is wrong? 

thanks.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Rick is this tank still up?

I noticed you are starting a 90-p, that is why I ask.


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## Guest (May 11, 2008)

mott said:


> Rick is this tank still up?
> 
> I noticed you are starting a 90-p, that is why I ask.


Yes it sure is - things are going GREAT with it!


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

any updated pics?


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## Guest (May 21, 2008)

Well my wife and I moved - and my fish made the trip - when I moved I trimmed ALOT of these plants, and added some rocks - here is the SAME tank - but with a massive trimming - I think this will be nice when it fills in.


Also as soon as my stand, and my Grand Solar One arrive, I'll be setting up my ADA system.

Any advice on my layout?

(this tank really has come along way thanks to everyones help!)


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

aw, the tank looked sooo good. why did you kill it? just kidding, its ok that you moved. 

my advice is to try and keep the glosso to grow lower with no upright stems this time, other then that just let the plants fill in.


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## Guest (May 22, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> aw, the tank looked sooo good. why did you kill it? just kidding, its ok that you moved.
> 
> my advice is to try and keep the glosso to grow lower with no upright stems this time, other then that just let the plants fill in.



Hey thanks , I'm sure it will look nice when things fill in - I like this layout better.

Question - how do I keep the gloss from doing what it did before? Should I trim it after the first set up leaves? I read somewere the second set - how do I keep it from growing stems? (My lights are bright enough)

Should I trim it right now?


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Have you ever considered just experimenting to see what works, instead of asking about every minute detail about your tank?

Part of the fun of this hobby, for me at least, is learning and experimenting with new ideas. If you think you have a new way to trim your plants, or light your tank, or whatever, just try it!!

If it works, you can post it and be praised, and if it doesn't, no one has to know


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## Guest (May 22, 2008)

Ha,ha. - why did you take the time to type all of that? I do what everyone else does - ask questions...

(and I don't ask questions about every little detail)


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i dont know how to do it, but i have seen pictures of glosso with nothing but horizontal stems growing together thickly, and not overlaping either. i dont know how it was done, but i know i liked how it looked.


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

rick4him said:


> Ha,ha. - why did you take the time to type all of that? I do what everyone else does - ask questions...
> 
> (and I don't ask questions about every little detail)


I was hoping to inspire you to think critically about things, experiment, maybe discover something new! You can learn from asking questions, but you can learn more from you own experiences sometimes.

Good luck with your new tank setup!


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2008)

Here are some new pictures - the glosso is growing in nicely. I am going through a bit of a cycle so there is a little alga, but i'm not worried about it.

I think this tank will be nice after some more trimmings of the stem plants in the back. I'm waiting for them to reach the top so I can trim them so they will start getting bushy. 

I am also going to stay on the trimming of the gloss this time around. If you remember last time it grow so well it was out of control.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the plants are growing well. that plant in the back (is it a val or an onion or what) will look better once it has something around it and behind it. right now the wispy leaves seem to outline the lack of plant matter in that area.


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2008)

Well here is an update - things are growing in nicely - 

I like how the one on the left is starting to look real bushy. 

I'm not sure I like the "look" of the tank - I think I will after a few more trimmings on the stem plants in the back. I'm hoping I get a real nice bushy effect.

any suggestions for now?


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