# LED = washed out color?



## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Depends upon the color temperature of the LEDs you're using.

Is it a DIY? Something commercially available?


----------



## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

Like somewhatshocked said, it all depends on the spectral output which equals the CRI of the leds used.


----------



## Mumford (Nov 12, 2012)

somewhatshocked said:


> Depends upon the color temperature of the LEDs you're using.
> 
> Is it a DIY? Something commercially available?


It's be the finnex fuge or finnex 2 over a 20 long


- Mumford


----------



## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Steve001 said:


> Like somewhatshocked said, it all depends on the spectral output which equals the CRI of the leds used.


Any links or pictures showing what these optimized output units look like!




from my iP5 via Tapa 2


----------



## Atari (Jan 13, 2013)

Mumford said:


> It's be the finnex fuge or finnex 2 over a 20 long
> 
> 
> - Mumford


You still haven't told us enough. Which Finnex2? Are they the Dual 7k, 7K+10K or 10k+Actinic?


----------



## Mumford (Nov 12, 2012)

Atari said:


> You still haven't told us enough. Which Finnex2? Are they the Dual 7k, 7K+10K or 10k+Actinic?


Well I'd love for someone who has one to chime in. I have no idea which one I'd go with :/


- Mumford


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i hear pretty good things about the finnex
as far as color.
i love my t5's


----------



## seandelevan (Sep 24, 2006)

I've posted these pics like 5 times now but above is my FugeRay2 and below is my Catalina 3 bulb t5. Both tanks are 75. Both have pressurized CO2.
FugeRay2








T5









After a month my 75 with the Ray2 was covered in hair algae. Replaced by 2 20 watt CFL's now. Ray2 is now on my 55 mbuna tank and looks wonderful. Don't know what I was thinking about using it for plant growing.


----------



## nikonD70s (Apr 6, 2008)

i have some flood leds 6k, they look pretty nice. and doesnt seem to wash out my fish colors. but my old T-5's with gieseman bulbs white/pink combination brought out the colors more. one thing i like led over t-5's are the shimmering effect. which is the main reason why i switch over to leds besides the energy cost.


----------



## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=248426&highlight=


----------



## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

mrkookm said:


> Any links or pictures showing what these optimized output units look like!


Picture or links to what optimized units ? My post is applicable to any light source. You can Google the info easily though.


----------



## Fishmommy (Feb 16, 2013)

switch the lights and then decide....the sand substrate might be what washes out the color. Optical illusion?


----------



## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Steve001 said:


> Picture or links to what optimized units ? My post is applicable to any light source. You can Google the info easily though.


The ! was meant to be a ?..just noticed that.

Sure on paper it should work but can you make it work for the source is the question. I thought you knew of a LED fixture that did this well is all I was looking for. 



from my iP 5 via Tapa.


----------



## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Mumford said:


> Hello all.
> 
> For those if you with just LEDs have you noticed your colors aren't as strong? The T5s seem to show off the color so much better?
> 
> ...


Let the plants adapt, give them a chance, you may notice their color, their "green" will change a little in a couple of weeks. That may sound weird, but I did notice that in the past when changing the lighting.

Michel


----------



## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

mrkookm said:


> The ! was meant to be a ?..just noticed that.
> 
> Sure on paper it should work but can you make it work for the source is the question. I thought you knew of a LED fixture that did this well is all I was looking for.
> 
> ...


Read up on the term Color Rendering Index.

Retail aquatic plant led light sources generally use only a few led's of limited spectral distribution. In order to see lifelike colors at there best [if that is the goal], a diy approach is you option. One company that does that is Build My Led. It has an app were you can design the system an they will build it for you. Acan Lighting has a retail led light source called Prism 600. They also use multi-color leds. And lastly I just came across this company [Radion] which has an multi-color led aquarium spot light.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=254898&highlight=

One of the forum members has lights from Build My Led and photos of her tank 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=198196


----------



## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Steve001 said:


> Read up on the term Color Rendering Index.
> 
> Retail aquatic plant led light sources generally use only a few led's of limited spectral distribution. In order to see lifelike colors at there best [if that is the goal], a diy approach is you option. One company that does that is Build My Led. It has an app were you can design the system an they will build it for you. Acan Lighting has a retail led light source called Prism 600. They also use multi-color leds. And lastly I just came across this company [Radion] which has an multi-color led aquarium spot light.
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=254898&highlight=
> ...



I should have better explained better what it is I was trying to point out, since it was left open for misinterpretation/confusion. 

So let me try again. 

Let’s say we have a 1 6000K & 1 5000K LED system, do you think the resulting 'CRI & CCT or (color rendered if you want to call it that) will be similar to comparable configured T5HO fluorescent? That is the question.

CRI is great and while it sounds good none of us really want accurate color representation to "natural' light. I believe we all relate a natural lights color as being ‘washed out’ for our application ...unless I'm the only crazy one that think it does for our application  

So while the whole CRI talk sounds good there's more to it than that since a lights color reproduction is what makes plants give us the wow effect when given the right conditions. With LED (like halides) I am still waiting to see plants wow me 'color wise. We know the LEDS like halides WILL make a plant grow and color up like no tomorrow, but it will not look close to the colors achievable from a good florescent based lighting, and what the OP is asking about.

I'm open to change and why I asked if there was a fixture you know of. Buildmyled, while it has some great options does not fit the bill regarding resulting plants colors due the rendered colors as explained above. Again, not because it’s a BML system, it’s just an LED thing. It may be good for some, but I haven’t seen any pictures so far that matches the comparison example above.


----------



## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

mrkookm said:


> I should have better explained better what it is I was trying to point out, since it was left open for misinterpretation/confusion.
> 
> So let me try again.
> 
> Let’s say we have a 1 6000K & 1 5000K LED system, do you think the resulting 'CRI & CCT or (color rendered if you want to call it that) will be similar to comparable configured T5HO fluorescent? That is the question.


No. 
T5HO is just a bulb type designation. It says nothing about the spectrum distribution so they can't be compared unless you have a spectral distribution graph.



mrkookm said:


> CRI is great and while it sounds good none of us really want accurate color representation to "natural' light. I believe we all relate a natural lights color as being ‘washed out’ for our application ...unless I'm the only crazy one that think it does for our application


Why not accurate as possible color reproduction ? It you think colors are washed out then you've not seen a planted tank under natural sunlight.



mrkookm said:


> So while the whole CRI talk sounds good there's more to it than that since a lights color reproduction is what makes plants give us the wow effect when given the right conditions. With LED (like halides) I am still waiting to see plants wow me 'color wise. We know the LEDS like halides WILL make a plant grow and color up like no tomorrow, but it will not look close to the colors achievable from a good florescent based lighting, and what the OP is asking about.


That is your choice to render plant color any way you wish.
Go to this thread http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=254906&highlight= and look at the red plants at the designated time under natural light. Does that wow you ?



mrkookm said:


> I'm open to change and why I asked if there was a fixture you know of. Buildmyled, while it has some great options does not fit the bill regarding resulting plants colors due the rendered colors as explained above. Again, not because it’s a BML system, it’s just an LED thing. It may be good for some, but I haven’t seen any pictures so far that matches the comparison example above.


Companies until recently have only offered a limited selection of leds which would could lead to a an unimpressive washed look do to limited spectral distribution. I think Acan lighting was the first company in 2011 that came out with multicolor led lighting. So in order to see glorious color it's necessary to have a wide gamut light source. Single fluorescent lights don't because they typically use only 3 phosphors. With led lighting you can diy tweak to make color pop as you like.
Only two fit the bill so far, multicolor led fixtures and plasma lighting.


----------



## sunyang730 (Jan 30, 2012)

I always use the ray 2 and I always have good result on it. The only thing I can think of for the hair algae is because it is too strong? They do give out alot of PAR. I am happy with my plant and they are growing very nice.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

BULB SELECTION

tank with two whites on
tank with all 6 lights on
color reproduction is excellent there are led's ou there that can look nice
hard to find though


----------



## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Steve001 said:


> No.
> T5HO is just a bulb type designation. It says nothing about the spectrum distribution so they can't be compared unless you have a spectral distribution graph.


I understand T5HO is a lamp designation, but it was used in context to explain the type of florescent lightning since they are all not equal. When I said comparable I meant even spectral power.

I guess what you are saying is that all LED can be made to look like florescent lighting since that's the only way to make the plants look as vivid. Forget they are using different methods (gas, arcs..etc) of generating light which impacts the color appearance.



> Why not accurate as possible color reproduction ? It you think colors are washed out then you've not seen a planted tank under natural sunlight.


I have and it's washed out  If we wanted that look I believe we would all be running halides 



> That is your choice to render plant color any way you wish.
> Go to this thread http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=254906&highlight= and look at the red plants at the designated time under natural light. Does that wow you ?


Perfect example of what we/I refer to as being washed out, even the fishes look blah. The natural light made the plant color up (not the issue) just like an LED or Halide, but the effect is lacking (the issue). 



> Companies until recently have only offered a limited selection of leds which would could lead to a an unimpressive washed look do to limited spectral distribution. I think Acan lighting was the first company in 2011 that came out with multicolor led lighting. So in order to see glorious color it's necessary to have a wide gamut light source. Single fluorescent lights don't because they typically use only 3 phosphors. With led lighting you can diy tweak to make color pop as you like.
> Only two fit the bill so far, multicolor led fixtures and plasma lighting.


LEDS brings some cool features to the table, but colorwise for plants it is lacking. Maybe we'll see this in the future.


----------



## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

mrkookm said:


> I understand T5HO is a lamp designation, but it was used in context to explain the type of florescent lightning since they are all not equal. When I said comparable I meant even spectral power.
> 
> I guess what you are saying is that all LED can be made to look like florescent lighting since that's the only way to make the plants look as vivid. Forget they are using different methods (gas, arcs..etc) of generating light which impacts the color appearance.
> 
> ...


The only thing I can say which I've said before is in order to see colors you need a wide gamut of color delivered by a light source. Photons are photons no matter what the visible light source is. Good luck.


----------



## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

A new picture of my washed out LED tank.


----------



## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

TexasCichlid said:


> A new picture of my washed out LED tank.


Your tank looks nice, so I'm not going say it doesn't, but it is my opinion that the resulting colors of what is perceived is better under comparable configured fluorescent lightning.

This is like a iPhone Android debate and we already know which is better 

This is where I end my contribution to this thread ends. The OP has more than enough info to make an educated decision.


----------



## papwalker (Feb 22, 2013)

TexasCichlid said:


> A new picture of my washed out LED tank.


I'm impressed, even with my cynic tinted glasses.
What's the make n model??


----------



## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

papwalker said:


> I'm impressed, even with my cynic tinted glasses.
> What's the make n model??


Finnex Fugeray, the lower light version they make. If I turn on the blue LED's at the same time it changes the spectrum a bit. This is with those off.


----------



## Mumford (Nov 12, 2012)

Seems like this finnexs are great for tiny tanks, but lose their power in the bigger ones. 

But what do I know 


- Mumford


----------



## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

Mumford said:


> Seems like this finnexs are great for tiny tanks, but lose their power in the bigger ones.
> 
> But what do I know
> 
> ...


I have a nice carpet with ~35-45 par at the substrate ( 12-14 inches from the source ). The Ray II has that same par at 18 inches. That gives you some big flexibility on tank depth for a carpet.


----------



## veryzer (Oct 13, 2009)

Mumford said:


> Seems like this finnexs are great for tiny tanks, but lose their power in the bigger ones.
> 
> But what do I know
> 
> ...


True for the fugeray, I think. But I believe the ray 2 should have plenty of light.


----------



## Green_Flash (Apr 15, 2012)

Also, I would like to point out that it is hard to capture the real look of lighting with a camera because of all the variables involved like camera type, settings used, computer used, monitor resolution etc.

One lighting example you might like from a photo and see it in person and not like it, same is true of seeing something in person could look better. That is why I like to see various lighting units in person to determine if I like the color spectrum. 
So far my favorite color rendition is the ADA Solar I NAG 8K closely followed by the Solar II PC 8K. 
A T5 with Midday and Aquaflora is pretty nice as well.


----------



## BriDroid (Oct 7, 2012)

I'm happy with my Ray2. I think the colors look great.

My only issue with it is some red plants struggle to turn red under it. They grow well with the PAR, they just don't turn the color that they do under T5HO or MH.

I have a single Ray2 over my 72 and I get great growth.


----------



## Mumford (Nov 12, 2012)

BriDroid said:


> I'm happy with my Ray2. I think the colors look great.
> 
> My only issue with it is some red plants struggle to turn red under it. They grow well with the PAR, they just don't turn the color that they do under T5HO or MH.
> 
> I have a single Ray2 over my 72 and I get great growth.


Will dosing extra iron not help?


- Mumford


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

White LEDs are just a blue LED, with typically a single phosphor that converts some of the blue to other colors. All their spectral distributions look similar to this:










There is a single sharp peak for blue, since that's the true LED color shining through, but the phosphor emission is smooth. So there's little color enhancement, especially for reds, which are particularly weak. You can move to a lower K rating and get more red, but then you get more yellow too, and that doesn't make anything look good.

On the other hand, T5's can use multiple phosphors, and be engineered for any number of color-enhancing peaks, like the infamous DD Giesemann Midday:










This is one of the major reasons I built a dimmable T5HO fixture for my largest and showiest tank, instead of LEDs. I really wanted to bring out the colors, and I don't think LEDs can do that without some trial and error, which would be expensive on a fixture this size. Eventually I'll play with LEDs on smaller tanks. I expect to come really close to a good T5, it'll take some red LEDs mixed in with the white, maybe some other colors too, and possibly some diffusion to avoid multicolored shadows.


----------



## veryzer (Oct 13, 2009)

I've run cfls with a gieseman-type pink plant bulb mixed with a daylight bulb. I find daylight colors from any single daylight source a "washout." So I switched one of my lights to a buildmyled planted tank spectrum. They devote space to blue and red leds and I find that it looks really good...absolutely no washout of reds, etc. Their fixtures are way more expensive than finnex but the result to my eye is certainly worthwhile. For me, that's the led solution if you want warm color-popping light without compromises. YMMV.


----------



## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

BriDroid said:


> I'm happy with my Ray2. I think the colors look great.
> 
> My only issue with it is some red plants struggle to turn red under it. They grow well with the PAR, they just don't turn the color that they do under T5HO or MH.
> 
> I have a single Ray2 over my 72 and I get great growth.



My understanding is some plants turn red as a protective measure against too much light.


----------



## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

DarkCobra said:


> White LEDs are just a blue LED, with typically a single phosphor that converts some of the blue to other colors. All their spectral distributions look similar to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look through this thread http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=198196 it will address all of the concerns you have. also look at the links within the thread. with leds you can do even better than a T5.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Steve001 said:


> Look through this thread http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=198196 it will address all of the concerns you have. also look at the links within the thread. with leds you can do even better than a T5.


Yeah, but that is a _lot_ of different colored LEDs, LOL! Would be a very expensive and hard to build fixture.

Plus note that high CRI isn't necessarily good. I did try some 97CRI fluorescents that everyone raved about on photography forums once. And I was completely unimpressed, even after a month to let my eyes and the plants adapt. Even common low CRI 6,500K bulbs looked better.

So I save the high CRI bulbs for photography and Stef's art area. And use bulbs in tanks that look best to me, even if they exaggerate colors and have horrible CRI.


----------



## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

DarkCobra said:


> Yeah, but that is a _lot_ of different colored LEDs, LOL! Would be a very expensive and hard to build fixture.
> 
> Plus note that high CRI isn't necessarily good. I did try some 97CRI fluorescents that everyone raved about on photography forums once. And I was completely unimpressed, even after a month to let my eyes and the plants adapt. Even common low CRI 6,500K bulbs looked better.
> 
> So I save the high CRI bulbs for photography and Stef's art area. And use bulbs in tanks that look best to me, even if they exaggerate colors and have horrible CRI.


A 97 CRI at what color temperature ? 

I have a CFL rated at a CRI of 93 and K temp of 5500 and it looks fine. I've seen florescent bulbs rated as high as 98 but the catch is they are either a very high K temp or low. That's because it's much easier to match sunlight at either the end of the day or near the beginning. Don't poo poo an idea because you think it's silly when in fact it's being done with success.

If you are not a diy'er then it would be hard. On the other hand... it wouldn't.

Leds are expensive that a fact.


----------



## papwalker (Feb 22, 2013)

@Steve001
I like the idea of multiple LEDs. You could easily imagine a control unit that lets you alter the spectral mix. Like knobs to adjust the CYM or RGB if you will. A small microprocessor and you can simulate the changing colour gamut of the day. With the rate of technical progress on LEDs I guess it wont be long before we start seeing this type of fitting.
It would be way cool.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Steve001 said:


> A 97 CRI at what color temperature ?


I looked it back up, I was in error. Philips TL950, 5000K 98CRI. I didn't mind the extra yellow, it just didn't make anything "pop". I currently have some 6500K 90CRI bulbs in one tank, it looks pretty good. But it's still nothing like the DD Giesemann combo, which makes colors "pop" like nothing else I've seen.



Steve001 said:


> Don't poo poo an idea because you think it's silly when in fact it's being done with success.


I'm sorry if you can't distinguish between my personal preference to accentuate certain colors over perfect realism, and "poo pooing" your idea.


----------



## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

I will take better looking colors than absolutely accurate representation any day of the week.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## veryzer (Oct 13, 2009)

TexasCichlid said:


> I will take better looking colors than absolutely accurate representation any day of the week.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Agreed!


----------



## Mumford (Nov 12, 2012)

Anyone know of a video showing of a finnex light?


- Mumford


----------



## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

TexasCichlid said:


> I will take better looking colors than absolutely accurate representation any day of the week.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


But you get better looking colors if you have a light source that produces color that are reflected instead of absorbed. For example in a tank you have Rotala Micranthemum that looks like this







Notice not only do you see a shade of red but there's also a bit of orange and perhaps yellow. If you don't have those colors in the light source those colors in the plant won't be reflected and the plant won't be visually at it's best. That's the reason under an led light at 6500 K produces washed reddish-red plant colors whereas greens being closer to the predominant blue output look pretty good.

BTW, You could incorporate an led that emits at 405nm and possibly get some flourescence. You check this easily with a violet laser pointer. Green plants generally fluoresce magenta.


----------



## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

Mumford said:


> Anyone know of a video showing of a finnex light?
> 
> 
> - Mumford


----------

