# Getting plants to thrive/killing algae (dosing with Excel/Thrive daily)



## Oso Polar (Apr 22, 2015)

Nitrates at 20 (or 40) are perfectly fine as far as betta (and majority of aquarium fish) is concerned. Frankly, betta will be fine even with 200 ppm - as long as it is not an immediate change. Not that I recommend this level but bettas *are* resilient. For plants - the higher, the better. 10 ppm may be too low actually.




Standard Excel dosage is 1 ml for 10 gallon, so your 0.5 ml for 5 g is not higher - it is standard. Note that I dosed up to 10x that much to kill algae without harming the plants. Some plants, however, react very badly even to standard Excel dosage, for example, vallisneria, ambulia.


IMHO you problem is not in Excel or fertilizers, it is something else.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Thank you for the reply, Oso. I'll continue dosing with Excel and Thrive for now, then. My lighting period is still 6 hours, my substrate is aquasoil--I'm just not sure why the plants are suffering more than before.


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## tjtobias (Feb 22, 2019)

I agree with the above, it must be some other factor that's causing these issues. I have the same tank setup and dose the same amount of excel daily. I also have some similar plants. However, I only dose about one pump of thrive per week, as I believe its very concentrated. Even so, excess nutrients wouldn't cause stunted growth necessarily. I've quickly realized as an owner of low tech, that pushing plant growth is difficult. I've resided to slow healthy growth, rather than faster mediocre growth.

Anyway, there must be something else here. What's your WC schedule? When did you plant? What's the temperature of the tank? etc. 

Also, with that dosing schedule you could probably use more light. I leave my lights on (the fluval spec v2 light) for about 8-10 hours per day, with no algae. 

- T


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

I do a 40% water change once a week.

I planted the bacopa and amazon swords a week ago, the monte carlo 3 weeks ago, the hydrocotyle tripartita 6-7 weeks ago, some more monte carlo, dwarf sag, and weeping moss 7 weeks ago. The crypocoryne has been around for longer, and the frogbit has been established for longer than that.

I keep the temperature of the tank around 78 F, for the betta.

Does that mean it's okay if I don't dose Thrive every day, but maybe every other day? Like 2-3 times a week?


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## tjtobias (Feb 22, 2019)

Probably. IIRC, the dose for regular thrive AIO is 1/2 pump (1ml) 2-3 times per week. So you should definitely be fine by not daily dosing. I have monte carlo in my tank, and if it was grown in an emersed pot I've noticed it takes quite a long time to transition over to submersed growth. I had entire clumps melt away and am only now beginning to see new healthier sprouts. However, with 6-7 weeks for the other plants, I'd expect them to be doing better. 

This is strange considering you also have a good substrate. Again, I would suggest bumping up the lighting. Excel and high fertilizer use require more lighting than 6 hours.


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## giovanopsis (Apr 10, 2019)

Ryan,

Your Kh is too low. Calcium carbonate is the most common carbonate in tap water and not only plays an important role in buffering the ph, it is also the main source of calcium for the aquatic plants in a planted aquarium. Calcium is necessary for the formation of the cell wall during mitosis in plant cells, and they cannot thrive without it. Signs of calcium deficiency include deformed new leaves that fail to grow properly and die back. As most sources of tap water include some carbonates, I find your Kh values very strange. Have you been using distilled water that you remineralize? or are you using some buffer agent that precipitates the carbonates? It is possible for plants to deplete the calcium in the water column, but it would take a very low Kh in your water source and an incredibly dense amount of plants in your tank (which is why calcium deficiency very rarely shows up in the hobby). If you are using distilled water, I would recommend that you include at least 25% tap water (dechlorinated) in your water changes, or consider adding some crushed coral/shells to your aquarium, although the later will not only raise the kh and ph but also the gh.

Cheers,

Giovanny


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

@Ryan Mosby

I think I answered this in another thread. Thrive every day is TOO MUCH. Once a week (in my case 1/2 a dose once a week) and excel (small amount daily). Your tank is running too rich and potential for overfeeding your betta (hence the fin rot, etc).

KH of 0 means you also will get swings in pH, etc which can also contribute to issues. I would get an amano shrimp, add crushed coral to your filter, and stop overthinking your dosage. You see my crazy lush tanks? Nano, low tech, low light with rare fish.... and I dont even use half of what you have. lol.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Are you using the Thrive low-tech version, in which case following the directions should be fine? Excel is a good way to supplement carbon in a low-tech tank. Has this tank always struggled or is it a new issue (I see two different statements regarding this)?

Light is among the most important aspects. Can you tell us what your PAR is at the substrate? You can read about PAR here: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...g-aquarium-par-instead-watts.html#post1951160. To find your PAR, you may have to search the forum, for your particular light, to see if others have quantified it. It could be that you have too much light for a low-tech tank.

Your KH, if it is actually zero (test kits can fool you) would probably be better a little higher. I would check your water source to see if you get the same results and let us know what you find. It is not critical to the plants what the KH is (calcium is measured within the GH, not the KH). However, if you actually have no bicarbonates, your BB could be struggling. You don’t need much. Many of us, including me, have KH less than 1 dKH. To raise it, add either sodium (baking soda) bicarbonate or potassium bicarbonate.

Unless you are willing to change the carbon every week (it only last about that long), you may want to try Purigen to help remove the organics that can make algae harder to control. Long term, it is healthy plants that control algae.

You should have enough circulation that the plants can be seen moving from top to bottom, very gently. You should also have the surface of the water rippling (not breaking) well to encourage gas exchange.

Make sure the tank is free of detritus and clean your filter weekly until you get a handle on how often it is needed.

Nitrate is ok. Many of us run in this area, although many of us also run in the 10 ppm area. Given your low bio-load (1 fish), 40 ppm NO3 does indicate that you may be overdosing the Thrive. You may also want to pick-up a PO4 test kit.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Deanna said:


> Are you using the Thrive low-tech version, in which case following the directions should be fine? Excel is a good way to supplement carbon in a low-tech tank. Has this tank always struggled or is it a new issue (I see two different statements regarding this)?
> 
> Light is among the most important aspects. Can you tell us what your PAR is at the substrate? You can read about PAR here: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...g-aquarium-par-instead-watts.html#post1951160. To find your PAR, you may have to search the forum, for your particular light, to see if others have quantified it. It could be that you have too much light for a low-tech tank.
> 
> ...


He says he's using ADA Aquasoil, wouldn't adding KH be a bad idea as it would simply get absorbed by the soil resulting in a shorter buffering lifespan for the soil?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

varanidguy said:


> He says he's using ADA Aquasoil, wouldn't adding KH be a bad idea as it would simply get absorbed by the soil resulting in a shorter buffering lifespan for the soil?


Yes: good catch. I didn't notice the substrate. That is, obviously, what is drawing-down the KH. 

OP: ignore the KH comment in my post. With the 30% water changes, expect that the buffering effect will last about a year or two. You can also expect that the substrate will contribute to the nutrient load, reducing the need for full dosing of the Thrive.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Your KH will be low with AS. The dosing of thrive shouldn't hurt, but with AS all you really need is K and micros for quite some time. Without co2, I would reduce lighting to maybe 5 hours.


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## giovanopsis (Apr 10, 2019)

I agree with Deanna, however, I need to add to the kh and gh discussion as there is a lot of misconceptions in the hobby. Kh measures only the bicarbonate hardness, whereas gh quantifies the minerals ions dissolved (Ca, Mg). In real life, Calcium carbonate exist in an equilibrium when dissolved in water (in the chemical sense) and interacts with CO2 (hence the buffering properties). When you add calcium carbonate, it dissociates in Ca2+ and HCO3-, therefore you are raising both the kh and the gh because the kh will measure the change in carbonates and the gh will measure the change in the mineral ions dissolved. The fact that you have a zero kh and some gh means you have minerals in the water, but we cannot say exactly which kind).

It is possible to have Calcium dissolved if you add some calcium salts (that do not raise the kh). I noticed you used GH+, however I could not find the composition of that product. They do claim it allows plants to grow tho.

I would remove the carbon for it removes nutrients that can be used by the plants. 

Do you have any pics of your plants? It would be easier to diagnose a deficiency from looking at them as the water parameters do not tell use anything about nutrient or light availability.

Cheers!




Deanna said:


> Are you using the Thrive low-tech version, in which case following the directions should be fine? Excel is a good way to supplement carbon in a low-tech tank. Has this tank always struggled or is it a new issue (I see two different statements regarding this)?
> 
> Light is among the most important aspects. Can you tell us what your PAR is at the substrate? You can read about PAR here: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...g-aquarium-par-instead-watts.html#post1951160. To find your PAR, you may have to search the forum, for your particular light, to see if others have quantified it. It could be that you have too much light for a low-tech tank.
> 
> ...


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Having used Aquasoil in more than 10 setups I can assure you, you don't need to add any Ca or Mg. Using Carbon with aquasoil will only add in removing toxins and there is really no issue with it removing nutrients.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

You increased ferts and things got worse, right? So go the other way. Fresh aquasoil doesnt need anything close to Thrive at the recommended dose, which is basically EI.

A low tech tank with fresh aquasoil definitely doesnt need that much. Half strength 2-3x week should be plenty, or if it gives a "low tech dose" do that.

Otherwise the problem is most likely a deficiency of light or co2. 

Forget KH, that's the aquasoil doing its thing. GH, which is Ca and Mg, should be fine if 8.4 is correct

Double the Excel and make sure to dose it daily just prior to lights on


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

burr740 said:


> You increased ferts and things got worse, right? So go the other way. Fresh aquasoil doesnt need anything close to Thrive at the recommended dose, which is basically EI.
> 
> A low tech tank with fresh aquasoil definitely doesnt need that much. Half strength 2-3x week should be plenty, or if it gives a "low tech dose" do that.
> 
> ...


Rotala Rotundifolia doesn't like an overdose of Excel(maybe you need more than 2X dose(not sure) it leads to downturned small stunted new growth as well as white patches on the leaves. How many other plants don't like overdoses of Excel?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

cl3537 said:


> Rotala Rotundifolia doesn't like an overdose of Excel(maybe you need more than 2X dose(not sure) it leads to downturned small stunted new growth as well as white patches on the leaves. How many other plants don't like overdoses of Excel?


As someone who ran two 75s with med-high light, no CO2, dosing straight Metricide at 2.5x Excel dose, which is about 4x Excel, for over two years, I can say - not many. 

Vals mainly, but they'll come back adjusted to it. Anacharis is supposed to not tolerate it. Dont think Rotalas should have any problems unless we're talking about a 10x dose to kill algae like some folks do. At least I never saw it personally


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I've been doing this for over 10 years and never saw any of the more common Rotala species sensitive to 2x excel treatments.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

@Asteroid @burr740 I've seen Excel be hard on my anubias plants. Only one survived, so I'm not sure if I overdosed Excel in general or if it was too much Thrive.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

It wasnt the Excel. This one of the aforementioned tanks getting roughly a 4x daily dose


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Anubias are pretty tough. It would take an extreme overdose to melt those leaves.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Google informs me that anacharis is Swahili for anus... but I was going to say I've done single doses of roughly 2x metricide on plenty of low tech tanks with anarchis and it's never stopped it from growing like cancer. Though I will admit I never cared about how good the anarchis was looking in those tanks as long as it was green, so maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

Anubias does develop holes if you spot dose it with glut with the filters off... but I've also never had a problem dosing the water column with it in a tank either. Or rotundifolia for that matter...

I've never dosed it daily though if that matters.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lol, get off my Anacharis already!


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

See white splotches. Also see stems in the background new growth leaves curved downwards and small. 

Spot dosed wood in the area (it didn't touch if it did they would melt badly), got the same thing from @Deanna Excel Bomb (1.5ml/Gallon).
No I haven't done 2 - 4X Excel dose whole tank for any extended period of time.


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